Sitting of 25 November 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS

    Eire (Conversations)
    Mr. Fitzroy Macleanasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement regarding the recent conversations with the Government of Eire.
    The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): Perhaps the hon. Member will await the statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will make at the end of Questions today.

    German South-West Africa (Mandate)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations on what conditions German South-West Africa was originally mandated to Great Britain; when and on what conditions this mandate was handed on to the Union of South Africa; and what steps His Majesty's Government have taken to see that these conditions are fulfilled.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: My hon. Friend is mistaken in thinking that Great Britain ever held the mandate for South-West Africa. It was conferred by the League of Nations on His Britannic Majesty, to be exercised on His behalf by the Government of the Union of South Africa.
    Mr. Skinnard: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his clear statement will serve to remove the misapprehensions on this subject, due to the mis-statements which have been made recently?

    Basutos (Ritual Murder Charges)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he is prepared to make further inquiries into the recent trial and conviction of Basutos for ritual murder.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: I understand my hon. Friend to refer to the recent trial of a number of Basutos, including two Chiefs, on a charge of ritual murder. The High Commissioner telegraphed last week that all the accused, except one against whom the Crown withdrew the charge, have been found guilty of murder. I am awaiting a further report of the proceedings.
    Mr. Skinnard: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there have been complaints about the treatment of prisoners and people held in prison as potential witnesses in connection with this matter, and that the whole social background requires some investigation?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Provided my hon. Friend does not think I am accepting any statement he makes, I shall be glad to look into any material he can send me about the background of the matter.
    Mr. Skinnard: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Mr. Justice de Beer questioned the treatment of witnesses who have been held pending investigation?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I will look into that.

    High Commission Territories, South Africa
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether his attention has been drawn to a declaration by the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa to the Nationalist Party Congress at Capetown on 17th November, that his Government would make approaches to His Majesty's Government for the incorporation of Swaziland and Basutoland in the Union; what representations he has received from that Dominion; and if he will give an assurance that the policy of His Majesty's Government on the retention of responsibility for the High Commission Territories remains unaltered.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: I have seen the Press reports of a statement by the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa,

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    in which he said that his Government would not neglect to make approaches in "due course" to the Government of the United Kingdom about the High Commission Territories. The South African Government, however, have so far made no official representations. The policy of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom remains unchanged.
    Mr. Skinnard: Thank you.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Machinery Import Licences
    Mr. Sidney Shephardasked the President of the Board of Trade how many licences have been issued since 24th March, 1947, to slide-fastener manufacturers for the importation from the U.S.A. of machinery to manufacture slide fasteners and to which firms were these licences granted; what were the dates of the licences; and what was the value of deliveries made.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): Three import licences for machinery from the United States for the manufacture of slide fasteners have been granted since 24th March, 1947. The dates of these licences were: 12th April, 1947, 3rd July, 1947, and 29th September, 1947, and the value of the machinery to be imported was stated approximately as £400, £22,575 and £2,800, respectively. It is contrary to procedure to publish the names of applicants for import licences.
    Mr. Shephard: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Parliamentary Secretary assured me on 24th September that no licences had been granted in respect of this particular type of machinery during the period named? Will the Minister say what steps he has taken to investigate thoroughly the circumstances governing the giving of wrong information to hon. Members of this House?
    Mr. Wilson: I was perfectly well aware of that, because, as the hon. Member knows, I wrote to him on the subject a few days ago. I have explained in full in my letter why this error was made. The Question related to 18 months ago, and there was a slip in investigating. I have now given the correct answer to the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Do not the Government feel the need for slide fasteners in view of what happened at Edmonton and Keighley?
    Mr. Shephard: In view of the seriousness of this matter, I beg to give notice that I shall send the papers to the Chairman of the Tribunal.

    Mattresses (Retailers' Stocks)
    Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchisonasked the President of the Board of Trade why it is necessary for a representative of his Department to call once a month at the premises of retail furnishing firms to ascertain the number of mattresses held in stock.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Because it is part of the duty of the Board of Trade to be aware of the state of supplies in retailers' hands of household necessities and particularly of textile goods. Experience has shown that this work is most efficiently carried out by personal calls on a selected number of retailers.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Could it not be done by correspondence? Is it necessary that somebody must go round every week?
    Mr. Wilson: I think it is much more to the convenience of the firms concerned that someone should call than that they should have to answer correspondence.
    Mr. E. P. Smith: Is it not desirable that these departmental snoopers should do something to justify their existence?
    Mr. Wilson: These people are not snoopers. If it were not for the service that these people maintain it would be very much more difficult to answer Questions put down in this House on this subject.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Is not this a further evidence of the Gestapo methods of the Department?
    Mr. Wilson: I get a number of Questions from hon. Gentlemen about the state of stocks in particular parts of the country, and it would be difficult to answer them without this service.

    Textile Industry
    Squadron-Leader Flemingasked the President of the Board of Trade

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    whether he is aware that Japanese printed cloths, samples of which have been submitted to him by the hon. Member for Withington, are being freely offered for sale in British West Africa at lower prices than those obtaining there for the staple printed cloths exported from Manchester; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with this situation.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have been informed that in some cases Japanese cloths are being offered in British West Africa at lower prices than those of comparable United Kingdom goods. I am having inquiry made as to the reason for this difference.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I hold in my hand samples of the actual goods sent into British West Africa and that they are such as no reputable Lancashire firm would produce, they are so shoddy? Will he not take steps to prevent this importation before the invasion of the Japanese begins?
    Mr. Wilson: The matter of Japanese competition in its short-term and long-term aspects is under close review. I can only say further that if the quality of the goods does not rise above the kind of thing to which the hon. and learned Member has referred there is not much danger in the invasion.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the Minister aware that the same kind of thing is taking place in Australia, where Japanese goods are also being sent?
    Mr. Wilson: I get a number of complaints from hon. Members. If I get any further complaints I shall go into them and take them up with the authorities in Tokyo.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: What is the Minister going to do beyond consideration? Will he use what power he has to stop a repetition of the Japanese dumping which did so much harm to Lancashire before the war?
    Mr. Wilson: This is a matter on which we are in very close touch with the cotton industry, and we shall shortly be in correspondence with other industries.
    Mr. Shephardasked the President of the Board of Trade which sections
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    of the textile and clothing industries are still controlled by the cost-plus system.
    Mr. H. Wilson: With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of those sections of the textile and clothing industries whose prices are still controlled by the method generally known as cost-plus.
    Mr. Shephard: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the cost-plus system encourages waste and penalises efficiency, and will he take some steps to get rid of it?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I have always felt that way about it. We are getting rid of it in one section after another as quickly as possible.
    Following is the list:
    1. The prices of pram rugs and of the following items of utility clothing (other than knitted goods) are still controlled by cost plus in conjunction with ceiling prices:

    Women's outerwear.

    Women's underwear and nightwear (other than woven rayon).

    Infants' and girls' outerwear, underwear and nightwear.

    Men's and boys' shirts, underwear and nightwear.

    Corsets.

    Overalls.

    Oilskins.

    Merchant Navy clothing.

    Nurses' uniforms.

    Gloves (in part).

    *Footwear (in part).

    *Footwear manufacturers may choose between two methods of control, one of which is the system generally known as cost plus, but whichever system they adopt applies to their total production for the home market, whether utility or non-utility.
    2. The following items are governed by cost plus only:

    Woollen yarn (in part).

    Woollen and worsted cloth.

    3. Many items of non-utility clothing are subject to a Standstill Order with the proviso that the maximum price for goods not similar to goods which were sold in the basic period shall be the manufacturers' costs of product and sale plus the appropriate net profit.
    Mr. Errollasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to ensure that, as a result of the new Japanese Trade Agreement, the Lancashire textile industry is not subjected to unfair competition in overseas markets.
    Mr. H. Wilson: If unfair competition from Japanese textiles were to develop in overseas markets, I would consider what steps were appropriate, but I do not accept the suggestion that the new Japanese trade arrangements will necessarily result in such competition.
    Mr. Erroll: As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Withington (Squadron-Leader Fleming) has already shown the nature of this Japanese competition even before the conclusion of this agreement, may I ask whether we can place any reliance upon the Minister's bland assurances?
    Mr. Wilson: I have already said that I shall be very glad to investigate any individual case of unfair trading methods, whether in terms of quality or of price.
    Mr. Titterington: Will my right hon. Friend keep in touch with the Yorkshire textile industry, especially the woollen and worsted sections, in view of the recent Press statement made by the Bradford manufacturers that they have received pieces and patterns from overseas markets which support the case put by the hon. and gallant Member for Withington (Squadron-Leader Fleming)?
    Mr. Wilson: I have said that I shall be glad to look into any individual case.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the Minister also aware that the manufacturers in Manchester want him to take steps to prevent this competition?
    Mr. Wilson: We are in very close discussion with the Cotton Board about the matter.
    Mr. Stokes: Is not the Minister aware that, as nobody has enough clothing, the situation will only be altered if there is a complete reform of the monetary systems of the world?

    Board of Trade (Export Services)
    Mr. Edelmanasked the President of the Board of Trade what change in the
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    organisation of his Department affecting its services to the country's export trade he has decided to make.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have decided to amalgamate the Commercial Relations and Treaties Department and the Export Promotion Department, so that both trade policy and matters of trade promotion will, when the amalgamation is complete, be the responsibility of a single department to be known as the Commercial Relations and Exports Department. The position and duties of my hon. Friend the Secretary for Overseas Trade will not be affected. I hope and believe that this arrangement, which will become effective within two or three weeks, will lead to increased efficiency and therefore result in an improved service to exporters. An article giving further particulars will appear in the "Board of Trade Journal," copies of which will be available in the Library.

    Timber Imports
    Mr. Hurdasked the President of the Board of Trade what purchases of timber for building and industrial uses are being made in countries within the Empire; what proportion they bear to the £82 million worth of timber which is being bought from Austria, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Poland and Jugoslavia; and what response he is making to the representations of the Premier of British Columbia as to the availability of timber in that province.
    Mr. H. Wilson: During the first nine months of the year the value of our imports of timber and plywood from Commonwealth countries was £30 million as compared with £18 million from the countries referred to in the second part of the Question. In reply to the third part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) on 15th November.
    Mr. Hurd: Is the Minister aware that British Columbia is anxious to trade timber for steel? Is it not worth making a special effort to foster traditional sources of timber within the Empire?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I have discussed this matter with the Prime Minister of British Columbia. We are only too anxious to get all the timber from British Columbia and other parts of Canada for which we can find dollars. We have

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    made a further special effort in the supply of steel, but not sufficient to enable us to import further timber.

    Jet Engines (Export to Russia)
    Mr. Hurdasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the jet engines supplied by this country to the Soviet Air Force were part of the machinery exchanged for coarse grains under the trade agreement with Russia; and if the supply of such equipment of potential use in war is being continued.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No, Sir. Jet engines were not included in the Trade Agreement with Russia of December, 1947. Those supplied to Russia were exported under contracts signed in August, 1946, and March, 1947. There is no intention of licensing the supply of any more.

    Process Engraving Equipment
    Mr. Baker Whiteasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he will permit Messrs. S. R. Littlejohn and Co. to supply to the Kentish Gazette, Ltd., a U.S. 120 half tone screen, now held in stock, as the output of the process engraving department of the concern is hampered seriously by the lack of this equipment;
    (2) why letters sent to the Import Licensing Department by the proprietors of the "Kentish Gazette" on 27th August, 4th October and 19th October have remained unanswered.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Permission has now been given to Messrs. Littlejohn to supply the "Gazette" with the screen they require. I much regret the delay in dealing with this matter.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Is it not inevitable under State control with 25,000 rules and regulations that administration breaks down?
    Mr. Wilson: It is equally inevitable that without some control there would be a terrific waste of dollars on things which this country might not really need.

    Dental X-ray Films
    Mr. Sutcliffeasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the difficulty in obtaining supplies of dental X-ray films; and if he will authorise an increase in production for the home market.
    Mr. Toucheasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that some dentists have been informed that they will be unable to obtain any X-ray films for three months owing to the fact that manufacturers have had to increase their export quota; and whether he will take steps to remedy the position.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Yes, Sir. In consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, I am seeing what can be done to improve the position.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Is the Minister aware that in some cases dentists have been unable to take these photographs owing to lack of films? Will he expedite the matter?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, I am aware of that. The reason for the shortage is that in spite of increased production there is a much greater use of this form of film by dentists at the present time.
    Mr. Touche: Is the Minister also aware that some dentists are informed that they cannot get supplies for three months? Can he do something to shorten that period?
    Mr. Wilson: I have said that we are going into the matter with the Ministry of Health.

    Sacks (Tenders)
    Mr. Orr-Ewingasked the President of the Board of Trade why sack merchants and reclaimers were advised by the Export Promotion Department on the 22nd October that tenders were required for one million used sacks in Germany, when the order had already been placed in the U.S.A.; and whether he is satisfied that there is no delay in collecting, transmitting and disseminating such information.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The Export Promotion Department was advised of the order on 18th October and, after confirming that the export of the bags would be licensed, notified the interested Trade Associations on 22nd October. Inquiries are being made to see whether there was delay in Germany, and I will communicate with the hon. Member when this information is received.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Is it not the case that this order had already been placed with the United States on 19th October?
    Mr. Wilson: I am inquiring into this matter in Germany. I am sure that the hon. Member will realise the difficulties that arise both here and in Germany owing to the fact that the control is not by this country alone but by more than one country.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Will the right hon. Gentleman let me know when he has the information, so that I may put down another Question?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, certainly.

    Children's Footwear
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the President of the Board of Trade what action is being taken to increase the supplies of children's boots and shoes made on lasts which take into account the special needs of growing feet.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Considerable attention has long been given by many manufacturers to lasts for growing children and constant research is being carried out by shoe manufacturers and by the Boot, Shoe and Allied Trades Association to improve lasts for children's shoes; the shoe industry is making steady use of knowledge so acquired.
    Mr. Sharp: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a considerable shortage of children's shoes which provide for the needs of toe room and that the type of shoe with the straight inside is in very short supply throughout the country?
    Commander Noble: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that supplies in Huddersfield are sufficient?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. The supplies of shoes in Huddersfield always were sufficient.
    Mr. Somerville Hastings: Does my right hon. Friend realise the extreme importance of properly shaped shoes for children? Could he communicate with all the manufacturers asking them to arrange their lasts in order to provide shoes of the right shape?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. We have had a lot of discussion with the trade about this, but we have no statutory powers to compel the manufacture of particular types or shapes of shoes.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: Will the right hon. Gentleman make quite certain that children are not walking about with bare feet?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. There is considerably less evidence of that going on now than there was before the war. I have already said that the supplies of shoes were always in adequate quantities; the trouble was the purchasing power with which to buy them.

    Export Orders (Cancellation)
    Mr. Sharpasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent orders for British goods from countries now receiving Marshall Aid have been cancelled because similar goods can now be obtained from the U.S.A. under the Marshall Plan; and what further cancellations he expects.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have not had information of any cancellation of firm orders on United Kingdom firms in the sense my hon. Friend suggests; and, if he knows of any case of this kind, I should be glad to have particulars.

    Carbon Black
    Mrs. Middletonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the result of the inquiries which have been made by his Department into the suitability of the Statex K method of making carbon black; how far this process can be economically operated from the available resources of methane gas in this country; and what would be the cost attaching to the use of the process as regards plant, licence, patents, etc.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Statex K is one of the several proprietary brands of carbon black produced in the United States from natural gas. I am advised that methane gas is not available in the United Kingdom in quantities sufficient to operate the minimum unit of plant for the production of carbon black on a commercial scale.

  FUEL AND POWER

    Oil Supplies, Middle East
    Mr. Edelmanasked the Minister of Fuel and Power by what percentage output of oil from Britain's customary

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    sources of Middle East oil supply has risen during the last eight months; and by what percentage the average price of oil has risen or fallen during this period.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): Output of Middle Eastern oil rose by about 20 per cent. during the first eight months of this year. The average price of oil remained unchanged during this period.
    Mr. Edelman: Is it not the case that the price of oil has been maintained at an unduly high level owing to the Gulf Price Agreement? Will my right hon. Friend take action in order to break this price ring?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am not responsible for the market price of oil, which is determined by world conditions. I would not say from what knowledge I have that a price ring is at present operating in this matter.
    Mr. Edelman: Is it not the case that the actual cost of production of Middle East oil is approximately half the cost of production of oil from the Caribbean Gulf?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have no information on that point.
    Mr. Erroll: Is it not the case that the price of fuel oil in this country has recently fallen?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir, the price of fuel oil has fallen, but it has been balanced by an increase in the price of lighter oil.

    Oil-burning Equipment
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what progress is being made in relaxing the restrictions on the installation of fuel oil-burning equipment; and when will outstanding requests for permission have been cleared up.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 6th May of this year, I explained that in a limited number of cases whose economic merits were exceptional, conversion to oil could be completed. Under this arrangement schemes of conversion have in fact been approved authorising consumption of oil at an annual rate of 340,000 tons. As regards the latter part of the Question, I have nothing to add to the statement I made in May.
    Mr. Erroll: Can the Minister state when he expects it will be possible to install oil-burning equipment without the necessity of obtaining permission?
    Mr. Gaitskell: We have this matter under continuous review. I cannot tie myself down to a particular date at the moment.

    Electricity Charges, London
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether in view of the fact that a circular, dated 4th October, 1948, giving notification of increased charges for electricity with effect from 14th October, 1948, was not received by certain householders served by the London Electricity Board until the 12th November, 1948, he will modify his policy of increased charges.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The adjustment of electricity charges and the service of notices regarding such adjustments are matters for Area Electricity Boards, but I must point out that the circular in question clearly states that the variation in the rates applies to electricity consumed after the first meter reading following 14th October, 1948. I am also informed that in case consumers should not have seen the public notices inserted in local newspapers, this circular is being delivered in most districts by the meter readers when taking the readings for the period before the higher charge applies. In other districts the circular is being sent by post beforehand.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: While I recognise the difficulties which necessitate the new charges, does the right hon. Gentleman think it right that a corporation should send out to me on 12th November a memorandum dated 4th October? Surely, the customer has a right to be treated in a fairer manner.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I think that so long as the circular was received before the actual increase in charge took place, it should satisfy the hon. and gallant Member.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that it is reasonable to take six weeks for a company to notify its consumers of a rise in price?
    Mr. Gaitskell: If the hon. Member will study the answer I gave to the original Question, he will see the reasons why the circular was sent out later.

    Methane Gas
    Mrs. Middletonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what are the total resources of methane gas in the British Isles obtainable from natural sources, sewage works and oil-cracking works, respectively; and what use of this gas is anticipated in the production of carbon black or chemical manufacture or as a booster for town gas where this is possible.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The total resources of methane in the British Isles obtainable from natural sources and sewage works are still substantially as given in reply to my hon. Friend, on 19th June, 1947. No methane is at present available from oil-cracking works. The quantity of methane available from these sources is not at present sufficient for the production of carbon black or chemicals or as a booster for town gas. Some hydrocarbon gas (containing methane) should be available for town gas supplies from an oil-cracking plant in the near future.

  PETROL SUPPLIES

    Commercial Travellers
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he has now given further consideration to the inadequacy of the petrol allocation to commercial travellers; and whether, in view of the more competitive selling conditions now prevailing, he is prepared to increase the present allocation.
    Mr. Sidney Shephardasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he has now considered the scheme for a more equitable allowance of petrol for commercial travellers, submitted to him by their organisation; and if he has any statement to make.
    Mrs. Leah Manningasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware of the hardship caused to commercial travellers with wide territories through the allocation of their petrol being based only on the horse-power of the car they use, with no relation to the amount of business they have to undertake, or the size of their territories; and what steps he is taking to remove it.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I will answer these Questions by referring to the reply which
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    I gave to the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Teeling) last week to which, at present, I have nothing to add.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: Why is the right hon. Gentleman not mindful of the urgency of this matter? Does he realise that there are thousands of commercial travellers whose cars are completely laid up now and who are unable to pursue their work? Does he also realise that it means that the firms are taking on two and three travellers and having to get two and three petrol allocations in order to do what was previously done by one commercial traveller?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am, of course, perfectly well aware that many commercial travellers are dissatisfied with their petrol allowances. I am also aware that many other people are dissatisfied with their petrol allowances. It is not an easy task to hold the balance between these conflicting claims. Moreover, the plan of the commercial travellers is an extremely complicated one and must be most carefully examined.
    Mr. S. Shephard: Is it not a fact that the Minister has agreed in principle to a greater allocation of petrol for commercial travellers. Is he still considering the scheme which has been put forward?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have not agreed to any increased allocation as yet. I am considering the scheme that has been put forward.
    Mrs. Manning: Will my right hon. Friend give particular consideration to men who work on a commission basis, to whom this has meant a great loss of trade and sometimes almost half their income?
    Mr. Gaitskell: We will certainly bear that point in mind as well as all the other matters which are raised by the association.
    Mr. Jennings: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that one of the difficulties in this matter is that the regional petroleum officers are governed by a maximum allowance which has no relation whatever to the mileage covered by a particular traveller?
    Mr. Gaitskell: That is precisely the point we are considering with the Cornmercial Travellers' Association.

    Farmers
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that farmers who are making a substantial contribution to the food supplies of the country by way of milk production and the supply of other foodstuffs are having withheld from them supplies of petrol for essential journeys in their farm cars; and if he will issue instructions for petrol to be supplied to farmers for these purposes.
    Mr. Gaitskell: No, Sir. On the contrary, the agreement between my Department and the National Farmers' Union, which is set out in a letter of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy, is working very satisfactorily.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon Gentleman aware that the position is not entirely satisfactory? In view of the difficulties in this matter will he be very kind and see me afterwards in order to discuss this matter?
    Mr. Gaitskell

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Anthracite (Supplies)
    Mr. David Rentonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware of the shortage of anthracite in the home market; and what steps he is taking to supply those householders who rely solely on anthracite stoves for heating purposes with sufficient fuel for the winter.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir. The shortage arises from the need for increased exports, particularly to Canada on whom we depend for much of our food and timber. In the meantime more gas coke is available and as I have already announced should be used wherever possible in substitution for anthracite.
    Mr. Renton: is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many householders in this country have stoves which will burn only anthracite, and will he give some indication of how long those stoves must remain unused through lack of anthracite?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Generally speaking, the manufacturers indicate that coke can be used in most stoves, but where that is not the case we will certainly do our best to provide the anthracite.

    Transport
    Captain John Crowderasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what percentage of coal was transported from the colliery to the consumer by rail and by sea, respectively, in 1939, and in 1945; and what is the percentage transported by these respective means at the present time.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Information is not available for 1939, but in 1945, 11 per cent. of total disposals of coal to inland consumers was carried by sea and 61 per cent. by rail. In 1947, the proportions were 13 per cent. and 61 per cent., respectively.
    Captain Crowder: Can the Minister say why the Government seem to discourage the coastal trade so much, and can he do something to see that more coal is transported by sea, as it is obviously cheaper and much more satisfactory in every way?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I could not agree that the Government have in any way discouraged the transport of coal by sea, but if the hon. and gallant Member is interested in transport by sea, perhaps he will put down a Question on that subject to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.

    Valuation and Arbitration Costs
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will now state the cost of valuation and arbitration proceedings incidental to the transfer of the coal industry from private to public ownership.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The work of valuation is not sufficiently advanced for any estimate of the total cost to be more than conjectural, but the published estimates for 1948–49, include £2,500,000 for these costs and a similar amount will be required in 1949–50.
    Sir W. Smithers: May I ask the Minister why it was necessary to waste this public money to get inferior coal at a higher price, and how much more money is to be spent on these lines?
    Mr. Gaitskell: If the hon. Member is suggesting that the method of compensation in the case of gas and electricity and steel is superior to that adopted in

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    the case of coal, I would not disagree with him. As regards the total cost involved, I have already said that it is not possible at this stage to say how much that will be.
    Sir Frank Sanderson: Can the Minister give an indication when he anticipates that the valuation will be completed?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Not for another two or three years.

  PRISON SENTENCES, MANCHESTER
  Mr. Frederick Leeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider modifying prison sentences passed on 12th November at Manchester upon three women found guilty of selling points coupons to a receiver, in view of the fact that in two cases the husbands were unemployed, and that all three have large families.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I have had inquiry made into the cases to which my hon. Friend refers and I regret that I have been unable to find sufficient grounds to justify me in recommending any interference with the sentences which the court thought fit to impose.
  Mr. Lee: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am not asking him to condone such behaviour as this. Is he further aware that in Manchester there is very strong feeling that whereas a woman with nine children in the one case, and women with five children in the other cases are sent to prison for this offence, a receiver who is in a far better financial position is merely fined £25?
  Mr. Ede: I am not aware of the position with regard to the receiver and, of course, I cannot criticise any sentence that has been passed. I would suggest with regard to the three cases which are the subject of the Question that my hon. Friend should see me, because the facts as set out in his Question are not quite accurate.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, without desiring in any way to query the propriety of a Question of this kind, did you not rule last week that Questions with regard to
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  the Royal Prerogative in connection with the death sentence were not generally permissible, and can you give us some guidance as to why a Question which apparently deals with the same Prerogative in relation to some lesser sentence should be allowed?
  Mr. Speaker: I should need notice of that Question so that I could give a considered Ruling, but these Questions are not the same.
  Mr. Lee: Mr. Speaker could I ask you to take into account when considering this for yourself that I am not asking for a death sentence for the receiver or anyone else. I am suggesting that it is necessary that the people of Manchester should see that justice is done to both sides irrespective of their financial position.
  Mr. Speaker: I must point out that it is not in order to reflect on the sentences which have been given by a magistrate.

  PRISONERS OF WAR (REPATRIATION)
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in the case of those few former German prisoners who were engaged to British women prior to 31st August last, but were unable to arrange a marriage ceremony prior to the date before which their application to stay here would receive special consideration, he will accept appeals against his decision to return them to Germany against their will.
  Mr. Ede: Provided that application is made at once, I am ready to consider on its merits any case in which a marriage ceremony has been fixed for a date before the last repatriation sailing.
  Mr. Stokes: Can I ask my right hon. Friend what he means by "at once"? Does it mean in a fortnight?
  Mr. Ede: At the earliest possible moment in any given case. I understand that the last date fixed for repatriation is 13th December and clearly, if these applications are to be made and considered, in view of the few days there are between now and 13th December, the sooner they are in, the better.

  POLICE (PAY AND CONDITIONS)
  Mr. Albert Evansasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now say when he expects to receive the report of the Committee on Pay and Conditions of Service of the Police.
  Mr. Ede: It would be premature for me at this stage to forecast when I shall receive the Committee's report, but I am satisfied that the Committee is pursuing its inquiry with the utmost expedition compatible with producing an enduring solution of the problems referred to it.

  FIRE, RICHMOND (INQUIRY)
  Sir Harvie Wattasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now in a position to make a further statement on the action which is being taken as a result of the report by Mr. Alfred J. Long, K.C., on the inquiry into the fire at the premises of Messrs. Harris and Co., Ltd., in Richmond, on 4th September, 1947. when six people lost their lives.
  Mr. Ede: As I informed my hon. Friend, the Member for West Bermondsey (Mr. Sargood), on 8th July last, I consulted the Minister of Labour and National Service on the general problem raised in this Report. As a result I have appointed officers of my Department and of the Ministry, and one or two officers of local authorities, to consider the Report and to enquire into and report upon the suitability, or need for amendment, of the existing Regulations under the Factory Acts and the Cinematograph and Celluloid Film Act, 1922, which govern the storage of celluloid.
  Sir H. Watt: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him if he can say what substances are being stored in these premises now, and if there is a danger of the recurrence of fire?
  Mr. Ede: I could not say without notice, but if the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, I will have inquiry made and supply him with an answer or, if he likes to pursue it privately, I will get the information for him.

  DANGEROUS DRUGS
  Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent the sale of dangerous drugs is increasing in the West End of London; if he will give the reason for the increase; and what action he is proposing to take to deal with this danger.
  Mr. Ede: I am satisfied that there is no organised illicit traffic in drugs to which the Dangerous Drugs Acts apply, either in the West End of London or elsewhere in this country, and that in most of the individual cases of unlawful use of these drugs the offender is brought to justice. My Department, in cooperation with the police and His Majesty's Customs, will continue to exercise the utmost vigilance in order to secure the enforcement of the law relating to dangerous drugs. I am satisfied that, as a result of the measures taken, addiction to dangerous drugs is not a serious problem in this country.
  Mr. Janner: Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for his statement, may I ask him if he can say whether in the recent case where sufficient drug to kill something like 5,000 persons was stolen, any progress has been made in the recovery of that drug?
  Mr. Ede: We are doing what we can to get it back, but it does not appear that it has yet been taken by any very large proportion of the 5,000 people.
  Mr. John Lewis: is the Minister satisfied in view of the remarkable number of instances recently where publicity has been given to the loss of drugs from doctors' cars, that in every case the losses are genuine?
  Mr. Ede: A doctor reports the loss; whether the drugs or the loss are genuine, I am afraid I do not know.

  HUMANE KILLERS (FIREARMS CERTIFICATES)
  Mrs. Manningasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a person who wishes to borrow a humane killer to kill an animal elsewhere than in a registered slaughter house, has to obtain a firearms certificate from the local chief constable;

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  and whether, in view of the fact that this obligation discourages the use of humane killers in many cases and that there is no danger to human life in the possession of a humane killer, he will consider amending his order on this subject.
  Mr. Ede: The Firearms Act, 1937, forbids the use of a humane killer in such circumstances unless it is authorised by a firearm certificate, and I have no power to waive the requirements of the Act. In such a case the certificate would be issued free of charge.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that humane killers can he, and have been, used to commit suicide and murder and is he further aware that inspectors of the R.S.P.C.A. and all the other great animal protection societies are always ready to slaughter animals humanely upon request?
  Mr. Ede: I understand that these humane killers, in the hands of careless or ill-disposed persons, can be dangerous to life; and Parliament has imposed this restriction on their use.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: Do these humane killers have to be surrendered to the police after use and, if so, how does the right hon. Gentleman's Department dispose of them?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir. The humane killer is subject to particular Acts of Parliament, one of which, I believe, was introduced by the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) when he demonstrated to the House how it could be used by putting it to his forehead but, unfortunately, he missed.
  Mr. Scollan: Was the humane killer used for the snoek recently supplied to hon. Members?

  FLAG DAY PERMITS
  Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will arrange that the League against Cruel Sports be allowed to participate in the Annual London Joint Animal Flag Day on future occasions.
  Mr. Ede: Under the Street Collections Regulations the Commissioner of Police is responsible, with the assistance of an Advisory Committee, for deciding upon applications for permits for flag days, and I can find no reason for thinking that the discretion vested in him has not been properly exercised in this particular case.
  Mr. Freeman: Does the Secretary of State recollect that the Committee which he himself set up to deal with this matter was in full agreement that the organisation should participate in this flag day distribution but that the recommendation of the Committee was over-ruled by the police themselves?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir. I gather it was felt undesirable that a society whose objects are a matter of some public controversy should be included amongst those participating in this particular flag day.
  Mr. Freeman: Is it not a fact that the Committee was unanimously in favour of allowing this organisation to participate?
  Mr. Ede: I do not think that that is the case but if my hon. Friend has any information on the matter and will put down a Question I will have the subject specifically investigated.

  IDENTITY CARDS
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchisonasked the Minister of Health if it is intended to retain identity cards permanently.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): The cards are an essential part of the National Registration system, which renders valuable services in connection with food and clothes rationing and in other ways; they must be retained so long as they are of use.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Does the Minister recollect that three years ago in this House he himself expressed his distaste for these cards and will he consider their abolition as soon as possible?
  Mr. Bevan: The hon. and gallant Member will recall also that I have made a number of orders taking away most of the unpleasant features of the card system.
  Mr. Renton: Is the Minister aware that national identity cards have one number and insurance cards have another number and, bearing in mind that so many members of the community are covered by both, will be consider the possibility of co-operating with his right hon. Friend to ensure that each member of the community has to think of only one number?
  Mr. Bevan: I cannot, offhand, see where the advantage would be, but I do see how it could easily happen that the two cards would have different numbers.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Medical Manpower
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health how many more doctors are required to enable the service promised under the new National Health scheme to be given satisfactorily; and what special efforts are being made to train doctors to supply this need.
    Mr. Bevan: Distribution is as important as total numbers. The Medical Practices Committee are obtaining reports from all areas in England and Wales as at 31st December and will then be able to assess where the main under-doctored areas are. The medical schools are already filled to capacity.
    Mr. Bossom: Is it not a fact that there is a shortage in the neighbourhood of 20 per cent. of the doctors required, and in the circumstances, why is the Minister requiring people to pay for services which he is not able to give?
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Member is quite incorrect. Until the Medical Practices Committee has reported upon the matter, neither he nor I is in a position to say how far areas are under-doctored.
    Mr. Bossom: Will the Minister urge the speeding up of this report, for the medical profession themselves say that approximately 20 per cent. are required?
    Mr. Bevan: I have no information at all that the medical profession does say that. It is a fact, however, that the doctors in particular localities are not anxious to say that their areas are under-doctored.
    Mrs. Manning: In view of the fact that this is an important and urgent question and that recruitment to the profession is likely to be very much increased in view of the security now afforded to young doctors, can the Minister have any consultations with his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about widely expanding the medical schools at a very early date?
    Mr. Bevan: The medical schools are already filled to capacity and it is not possible to expand these schools beyond the capacity of teachers available to teach in them. It is not only the size of the medical schools, but the medical teaching staffs, which forms the limitation.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Is the Minister, who has spoken of the fullness of medical schools, prepared to carry out the recommendation of the Goodenough Committee to start another medical school?
    Mr. Bevan: A large number of the recommendations of the Goodenough Committee are already in operation, but, as I have said, it is no use operating medical schools if we do not have the medical teaching staff for them.
    Dr. Morgan: Are not the teaching staffs capable——
    Mr. Speaker: Dr. Segal.

    Doctors (Basic Salary)
    Dr. Segalasked the Minister of Health by what authority local executive councils are empowered to ask a doctor applying for payment of basic salary to submit details of his income from all sources; and if he will give an assurance that a doctor who refuses to divulge these details will be in no way prejudiced when his claim for a basic salary comes up for consideration.
    Mr. Bevan: My view is that it is only the doctor's professional income which should be taken into account in such cases.
    Dr. Segal: Would it not also be advisable to investigate incomes at the other end of the scale, where over-worked doctors may have lists of patients they are unable to cope with and may be receiving now, incomes larger than they ever had before?
    Mr. Bevan: I think that is another question entirely. That matter is being reviewed by the Medical Practices Committee and not until we have had a survey of the whole country shall we be in a position to identify those parts where the lists are too large and the areas under-doctored.
    Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that doctors who apply for the basic salary are being told that that basic salary, if paid, is a charge upon their colleagues in the area in which they practise, and does he think that that policy lends itself to a fair interpretation of decision by those colleagues?
    Mr. Bevan: It is a fact that the £300 per year comes out of the general capitation pool—as, indeed, it ought to—because it forms part of a doctor's remuneration. Where, however, the individual doctor is aggrieved, he has the right of appeal to me. Many have appealed and decisions have been given.

  FIVE-POWER CONFERENCE (REPRESENTATION)
  Mr. W. Shepherdasked the Prime Minister why the only representative of trade and industry in the delegation to the Five-Power Conference on European Unity at Paris is a representative of the co-operative society.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): With a view to forming an effective and balanced team the British members of the committee in question were chosen on their personal qualifications and not to represent sectional interest.
  Mr. Shepherd: Does the Prime Minister mean to imply by that answer that it was impossible to find a man of equal calibre from the ordinary private industries of this country, and why does the Government persist in a narrow, partisan attitude on an issue that ought to have a wide general interest?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member himself is showing a partisan attitude. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gill has a very wide knowledge of the international cooperative movement, which has a very wide distribution throughout the world, and, therefore, he is peculiarly qualified to deal with these international questions.

  "HOME AFFAIRS SURVEY" (ARTICLE)
  Mr. Marloweasked the Lord President of the Council whether his attention has been drawn to the Central Office of Information publication "Home Affairs Survey" of 16th November where it is stated that working class earnings are supplemented by the additional benefits of family allowances, rent, subsidy, food subsidy and free education, and that these are a fair illustration of the help given by the Government's policy to large working class families who, in all previous periods, have often fallen below the poverty line; and as all these benefits were created by legislation of previous Governments if he will correct this mis-statement.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): No, Sir. The "Home Affairs Survey" is produced for oversea publicity use. In such a factual article as that to which, the hon. Member refers, it would be neither appropriate nor useful for oversea audiences to divide credit between individual administrations,. and therefore the phrase used was "the Government"—in a non-party sense, just as in the preceding line in the article it is used in the phrase "Government receipts, and expenditure." The sentence might perhaps have been phrased otherwise, but I can hardly think that the hon. Member really accuses the present Administration of claiming that it introduced free education.
  Mr. Marlowe: Is not the reference in the pamphlet to the Government's policy, as contrasted with the previous Government's policy, intended to be a contrast between the present and some alleged, but mythical, bad old days? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the taxpayer should not be called upon to subsidise Government propaganda, even if the statements are true, and that it becomes indefensible when the statements are untrue?
  Mr. Morrison: This document is sent to overseas posts for their guidance; it is not, I think, for dissemination. The purpose is to show that Britain is a good country. I think that is a legitimate public purpose and that the hon. and learned Member has misread it, although I agree with him to this extent, that if I were writing the sentence, I would write

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  it a little differently and I have picked up the point. But, in order to show hon. Members opposite how impartial it is, here is another heading:
  "Edmonton, London, By-election
  Big rise in Tory vote."
  Mr. Keeling: Will the Government make it clear that it is the taxpayers and not the Government who are paying for these benefits?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not think we should under-estimate the intelligence of people in foreign countries. They know perfectly well that public expenditure is met out of public revenues.
  Mr. Driberg: In any case, since the official spokesmen of the Opposition have repeatedly attacked the present Government for maintaining food subsidies and introducing other social benefits prematurely, would it not be perfectly fair for the present Government to take full credit for that policy?
  Mr. Morrison: That is a fair submission, but, being perhaps over fair-minded and over scrupulous, I will not take advantage of it. I wish to goodness hon. Members of the Opposition when they go to foreign countries, would not say things against their own country.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Catering Industry
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the rising unemployment in the hotel and catering industry; and whether he will make a statement on the matter.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I am aware of the normal seasonal recession in the hotel and catering industry. This principally affects holiday resorts where it has always been difficult to find other work at the end of the season for persons engaged in this industry. The Departments concerned are doing all they can to encourage the introduction of suitable industries into these areas and local employment committees are actively considering what they can do to assist.
    Sir I. Fraser: Is not the unemployment which has been observed during the past summer and is aggravated now, something more than an ordinary seasonal
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    change and would not the best way of helping seaside and holiday resorts generally be to make easier the conditions under which they operate?
    Mr. Isaacs: The conditions under which they operate have been agreed between both sides of the industry and it is not my business or intention to intervene. What we are trying to do is to get other industries there to take up the slack. It must be remembered in regard to seasonal resorts, however, that if other people enter in the winter they will want to remain there in the summer.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: How is it that only now is consideration being given to this matter, when it was quite obvious months ago that there was going to be much more than seasonal unemployment in these industries?
    Mr. Isaacs: There is no evidence that there is going to be much more—there is a lot of talk, I know, but, if we get the evidence, we will look at it. We have been trying to get other industries to go into these areas since last winter at least, which was long before the Act came into operation.

    Disabled Persons, London
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Minister of Labour the total number of registered disabled persons without work in the Metropolitan area now and in October, 1947.
    Mr. Isaacs: The number of registered disabled persons in the Metropolitan area at 18th October, 1948, was 170,424; and of these, 8,983 were recorded as unemployed. The figures for the corresponding date in 1947 were 152,980 and 7,209, respectively.

    European Volunteer Workers (Families)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Labour how many of the European volunteer workers recruited in Germany have come over here with their families; and how many have had to leave their families behind.
    Mr. Isaacs: About 1,300 of the European volunteer workers now have their families with them; the number with families still on the Continent is about 200.

    Training Centres
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Labour what was the number of persons in training centres in proportion to each member of the total staff and the instructional staff, respectively, at the latest available date.
    Mr. Isaacs: The number of persons in training in proportion to each member of the total staff and the instructional staff on 1st November was 2.4 and 7.4, respectively.
    Sir W. Smithers: Can the Minister take some steps to make the working of these training centres less wasteful and more efficient?
    Mr. Isaacs: I could not take steps to make them more efficient. We can take steps to make them what is called less wasteful. The problem is that when the training centres are being run down, an instructor teaching 20 people will still be required when teaching 10 people. We also have to look after stores and maintenance. That they are being reduced, is shown by the fact that while there were 6,700 on 1st September last year the number had gone down to 2,500 on 1st September this year.

  NATIONAL SERVICE (AGRICULTURAL WORKERS)
  Mr. George Jegerasked the Minister of Labour what changes it is proposed to make in the present arrangements under which agricultural workers are not called up for service in the Forces.
  Mr. Isaacs: The present arrangements, under which the call-up of bona fide agricultural workers is deferred so long as they continue to be satisfactorily employed in that industry, apply to men liable for call-up in 1947 and 1948. It has been decided to continue these arrangements for another year.
  Mr. Bramall: Up to what age does an agricultural worker continue to be protected from the call-up after he has left the industry?
  Mr. Isaacs: I could not answer that Question without notice.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Christmas Bonuses (Income Tax)
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent his regulations lay down that Christmas bonuses given by employers to employees in the form of savings certificates are liable to Income Tax.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): Christmas bonuses paid to employees are liable to Income Tax whether payment is made in cash or in something such as savings certificates which can be turned into cash. A special concession has, however, been made in recent years as regards cases in which an employer who had been in the habit of making Christmas presents in goods to subordinate employees decided to substitute gifts of equivalent value in the form of savings certificates, savings stamps, National Savings gift tokens or direct credits to savings bank accounts of the employees. In such cases, the value of these substituted gifts has not been treated for Income Tax purposes as income of the recipients, and my right hon. and learned Friend has decided that this concession shall be continued this year.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that it is not possible to offer some further inducement to persuade employers and employees to follow this practice in regard to savings certificates?
    Mr. Jay: We are bound by Income Tax law in this matter and I am afraid it would not be possible to go further.

    Bonded Goods (Duties)
    Mr. Joynson-Hicksasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the assessable duties on goods in bond in England on 1st October, 1938, 1945 and 1948, respectively.
    Mr. Jay: I regret that the information sought by the hon. Member is not available.

    Tobacco Duty Relief
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the decision of the Board of Customs

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    and Excise that an ex-Service man disabled in the highest degree who accepts the offer of the Minister of Pensions to give up his retirement pension of 26s. a week in order to receive the 30s. a week unemployability supplement to which he is entitled by reason of his disability is to lose his entitlement to the Tobacco Duty relief granted to old age pensioners under the Tobacco Duty (Relief for Pensioners) Regulations, 1947; and whether in view of the small amount of money involved and to the fact that if the concession is taken away the man will lose 2s. 4d. of the 4s. he is gaining by the changeover, he will allow the man to continue to receive the benefit of the concession.
    Mr. Jay: I regret that it is not possible to continue Tobacco Duty relief to ex-Service men who cease to draw a retirement pension.

    Overseas Remittances (Charities)
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Toothasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in what circumstances permission is given for the transfer of funds for charitable purposes abroad.
    Mr. Jay: The remittance of money for charitable purposes abroad is normally allowed, subject to certain limits, where the application is made by a recognised charitable institution. Applications by other organisations to make remittances for charitable purposes are considered on their merits. Applications by individuals to make such remittances are not normally allowed, but permission may be given, on compassionate grounds, for gifts between close relatives in cases of genuine hardship.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: On how many occasions has permission actually been given?
    Mr. Jay: I could not say, without notice.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Will the hon. Gentleman publish the list of applications which have been granted to organisations other than private individuals, and have applications been granted for payments to foreign newspapers, particularly in France?
    Mr. Jay: If the hon. Member will put that question on the Paper, we will look at it?
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Who is responsible for the definition of "charitable institution," as applied by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury in connection with this Question?
    Mr. Jay: The Treasury naturally take responsibility in these cases.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Could the Leader of the House tell us the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday, 29th November—Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Tuesday, 30th November—Committee stage of the Civil Defence Bill. Conclusion of the Committee stage of the Wireless Telegraphy Bill, if not completed tonight.
Wednesday, 1st December—Second Reading of the National Service Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Thursday, 2nd December—Second Reading of the Cinematograph Film Production (Special Loans) Bill, and of the Administration of Justice (Scotland) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolutions.
Friday, 3rd December—Report and Third Reading of the Wages Councils Bill and the Civil Defence Bill.
In regard to the Business tomorrow, Friday, we do not propose to take the Committee stage of the Colonial Loans Bill, which was announced as third order.
Mr. Eden: Will the Leader of the House bear in mind that we hope to have a foreign affairs Debate the week after next? He will remember that it was suggested when we were discussing Business last week.
Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. I am keeping that in mind, and hope to make arrangements for a date in the very near future.

OVERSEAS FOOD CORPORATION (QUESTIONS)
Mr. Eden: Might I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you can give us a Ruling in regard to the answering of Questions which refer to the Overseas Food Corporation?
Mr. Speaker: I am not able to give a precise Ruling today with regard to Questions which refer to the Overseas Food Corporation. I should be obliged if the right hon. Gentleman would ask me later, when I have had more time to consider the matter.

EIRE (RELATIONS WITH COMMONWEALTH)
The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): Mr. Speaker, I will, with your permission, make a statement on Eire.
In 1937 a new Constitution was enacted in Eire in which no reference was made to the Crown. This, however, left in force the Eire Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936, which authorised His Majesty the King to act on behalf of Eire in certain matters within the field of external affairs as and when advised by the Eire Executive Council to do so. In December, 1937, the United Kingdom Government stated, after consultation with the Governments of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, that they, like those Governments, were prepared to treat the new Constitution as not effecting, a fundamental alteration in the position of Eire as a member of the Commonwealth.
On 7th September last the Prime Minister of Eire, Mr. Costello, announced that the Eire Government were preparing to repeal the External Relations Act. Subsequently, Mr. Costello confirmed this intention. As the House is aware, I took advantage of the presence in London during October of other Commonwealth Ministers to arrange on 17th October for preliminary discussions with Eire Ministers in order to explore the consequences which would flow from the legislation proposed in Eire. Representatives of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, in which there are particularly large numbers of people of Irish ancestry, participated in these discussions.
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Since then the matter has been under constant examination here. When the Eire Government announced that their Repeal Bill, to be entitled the "Republic of Ireland Bill," would be introduced on 17th November, I thought it right that the situation should be further discussed with members of the Eire Government and with the Prime Minister of New Zealand, the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia and the Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs, all of whom were in Paris for the meeting of the General Assembly of the United Nations. Discussions took place accordingly in Paris last week. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my warm appreciation of the constructive part played by Mr. St. Laurent, Mr. Fraser, Dr. Evatt and Mr. Pearson in the preliminary discussions. I have also discussed this matter personally with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland and informed him fully of the position.
As a result of these discussions the United Kingdom Government have been able to give the most careful consideration to the relations between the United Kingdom and Eire when the Republic of Ireland Bill comes into force. They regret that Eire will then no longer be a member of the Commonwealth. The Eire Government have, however, stated that they recognise the existence of a specially close relationship between Eire and the Commonwealth countries and desire that this relationship should be maintained. These close relations arise from ties of kinship and from traditional and long-established economic, social and trade connections based on common interest. The United Kingdom Government, for their part, also recognise the existence of these factual ties, and are at one with the Eire Government in desiring that close and friendly relations should continue and be strengthened.
Accordingly the United Kingdom Government will not regard the enactment of this legislation by Eire as placing Eire in the category of foreign countries or Eire citizens in the category of foreigners. The other Governments of the Commonwealth will, we understand, take an early opportunity of stating their policy in the matter.
The position of Eire citizens in the United Kingdom will be governed by the British Nationality Act, 1948. The Eire

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Government have stated that it is their intention to bring their legislation into line with that in Commonwealth countries so as to establish by statute that, in Eire, citizens of Commonwealth countries receive comparable treatment.
Mr. Churchill: In the Debate on the Address, we had every reason to suppose that the Government would resist the proposals of Mr. Costello's Government to sever the last tenuous link with the Crown, and that the Southern Irish would be confronted with all the difficulties which would arise in respect of the nationality of Irishmen in Great Britain and of the British in Ireland, and also in all matters connected with preference and trade relations. Now it appears from the statement which has just been made——
Mr. Stokes: On a point of Order. Is there any Motion before the House? Are we to proceed to debate this statement, because the Leader of the Opposition is not asking a question? He has come with long prepared notes, and is proposing to make a speech.
Mr. Churchill: Further to that point of Order. I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that when a statement of this momentous character is made by the Government, some statement of the position of the Opposition, naturally confined within moderate limits, is permissible and is customary.
Mr. Speaker: I think that is so. But it is more convenient under the Rules of the House if the Chief Whip moves "That this House do now adjourn." Otherwise, we get into a Debate which I cannot stop, and which is out of Order. From the point of view of the Chair it is more convenient if that can be done.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Whiteley): I beg to move. "That this House do now adjourn."
Mr. Churchill: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and, addressing myself with great particularity to the Question whether we should now adjourn, may I be permitted to say that, whereas in the Debate on the Address we had every reason to believe that His Majesty's Government intended to raise all these issues of nationality and
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preference if the Dublin Government decided to sever this last tenuous link, they have now abandoned that position. They are going to acquiesce in arrangements which leave the Southern Irish in full enjoyment of any advantages there may be in being connected with the British Empire and Commonwealth without having any reciprocal obligations of their own towards it.
I do not wish to exaggerate the significance of the step which the Dublin Government are resolved to take. From the point of view of their relations with this country it is not of a very novel character. Mr. de Valera's External Relations Act did not prevent Irish neutrality in war, in mortal war, or the denial to us of the use of the ports on which our life sometimes depended. The External Relations Act did not prevent Mr. de Valera's Government from having an Irish Minister in Berlin and in Rome, and German and Italian Ministers in Dublin. I have no doubt whatever that he only retained the use of the symbol of the Crown for matters of domestic and local convenience. Therefore, it seems that the severing of this link implies no real or material change—whatever may be the sentimental issues involved—in the position which has been accepted and endured for the last 10 years or more.
We bear no ill-will to the Irish people, and we recognise the fact that world movements and world causes may bring us more closely together in future years, not only for practical purposes in matters of mutual convenience, but also in sentiment and in spirit. It is not the question of the relations between Great Britain and Southern Ireland which is important. The serious matter is the attitude of His Majesty's Government towards it and the action—or inaction—which they propose. I should like to make it clear that we on this side in no way associate ourselves with this action. The Government have the power, and they also have the responsibility. Of course, they are taking it in full harmony with the declarations of policy which have been made on their behalf by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This is only an incident in the melancholy path we are now forced to tread.
But it seems to us of the utmost importance that two things should be made clear. The first is that on account of its

1417
geographical position near to Great Britain, and on account of the long, terrible and tragic history of the two countries, it seems clear that Ireland is in an entirely different position from any of the other parts of the world in—I must not say in the, British Empire—perhaps I may be allowed to say in which we are still at present interested. No arrangements which may be made by the present Government, or any other Government, in regard to Ireland can afford any rule or precedent for application elsewhere. I think that that is the view of the Government. Each separation from the British Crown will have to be judged in accordance with the circumstances of the time and the facts of the case. That is the first point; that this is no precedent. It may be right or wrong, but it is no precedent. No one has the right to say, "This rule applies without discrimination elsewhere." It is important we should be agreed upon that.
In the second place, it is quite clear, now that Southern Ireland has separated itself altogether from the Crown, that the maintenance of the position of Northern Ireland becomes all the more obligatory upon us. It is evident that a gulf has been opened, a ditch has been dug, betwen Northern and Southern Ireland which invests partition with greater permanency and reality than it ever had before. I cannot myself conceive that even the present Socialist Government, in their full tide of destructive success, would coerce the loyal people of Ulster out of their right to choose what shall be their relationship with the British Crown and Commonwealth. It is obvious that the position of the people of Northern Ireland, of Ulster, has been simplified and consolidated by the decisions which the Dublin Government have taken. That is a fact, and I was sorry that some emphasis on that fact found no part in the statement which the Prime Minister has just made to us.
There is only one other observation which I should make. We wish to harbour no towards the Irish people wherever they may dwell. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I have my own mental contacts with that people, whose fortunes I have followed and been connected with in many ways, long before those who make these superficial scoffings were called upon to form, or were capable of
1418
forming any intelligent opinion on the subject. I say that we on this side of the House harbour no towards the Irish people wherever they may dwell, and for my part I shall never allow the hope to die in my heart that, under whatever form may be adopted, our future sentiment and action will be increasingly in harmony. Finally, I must make it clear that in respect of future legislation which may be presented to us we reserve absolute freedom of action.
Mr. Clement Davies: The action which the Eire Government and people have taken is one over which they have complete control, and have had control since the Statute of Westminster. The question, therefore, is what attitude should the Government and people of this country take? Shall we now treat the Irish people as if there had been no relation at all between us and as completely dissociated and foreign from us, or should we do our best to maintain the friendly relations which always ought to have existed, and which can exist, between us? I think the statement of the Prime Minister is the only one which we could make. I am strengthened in this view by the fact, as I understand it, that that is also the desire and wish of the Irish and of the other members of the Commonwealth.
Sir Hugh O'Neill: Speaking on behalf of Northern Ireland, I should like to say that we view with the most profound regret this decision which has been taken by the Southern Irish Government. I look upon it as a disaster that the Southern Irish Government should have decided to sever the last link with the British Commonwealth of Nations, however tenuous those links may have been in the past.
Mr. Rankin: On a point of Order. Is it in Order for us to discuss a decision taken by a friendly Power?
Mr. Speaker: The House is in Order in discussing the statement made by the Prime Minister. Of course, this only occupies time which has been allowed for other Business.
Sir H. O'Neill: I was saying that the people of Northern Ireland consider it a matter for profound regret that the Southern Irish Government should have decided to sever the last link with the

1419
British Commonwealth and also to repudiate allegiance to the Crown. I think that everyone in this House will agree that the symbol and fountain 1 head of the British Commonwealth and Empire is, and always must be, the Crown.
On behalf of Northern Ireland, I should like to lodge an emphatic protest against the decision to call the State of Southern Ireland the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of Ireland. But Northern Ireland is not a republic. Northern Ireland is, and intends always to remain, a part of the United Kingdom. That is all I need say on this occasion, with the exception of asking the Prime Minister two questions. The first was raised by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. Can the Prime Minister again give an assurance that this change will have no effect whatever upon the constitutional status of Northern Ireland? Also, can he tell the House whether or not this decision implies legislation here?
The Prime Minister: In reply to the right hon. Gentleman, there is no change whatever in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. It was, I thought, quite unnecessary for me to repeat the statement I made in this House as recently as 28th October, in which I said:
"The view of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom has always been that no change should be made in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland without Northern Ireland's free agreement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th October, 1948; Vol. 457, c. 239.]
I do not think that there is any immediate need for legislation. There may possibly be some need for clearing up one or two small points. I am advised that there is not likely to be any immediate need for major legislation.
I might say a few words on the general question. I was rather sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) seemed to condemn the attitude taken by His Majesty's Government without suggesting what he would have done in the circumstances. The alternative would have been to treat Eire as a foreign country and to break off all relations——
Mr. Churchill: No.
The Prime Minister: Why not?
Mr. Churchill: What about France and the Benelux countries?
The Prime Minister: Unless the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to put forward some policy which is better than that which, after careful consideration with other members of the Commonwealth, we have put forward, he might have accepted this with a better grace.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: I appeal to the House. I asked that the Adjournment should be moved, but I did not want other Business to be spoiled——
Mr. Churchill: Why not?
Mr. Quintin Hogg: On a point of Order——
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member cannot rise on a point of Order when I am on my fee+. I suggested that this matter should be debated on the Adjournment so that we might comply with the Rules. We should not debate this for the whole of the day. Hon. Members should remember that there is other Business to come before the House which I hope they will not curtail by prolonging this Debate.
Mr. Whiteley: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Charles Williams: On a point of Order. May I have some information for my own assistance and possibly for the assistance of other hon. Members? The Chief Patronage Secretary himself moved the Adjournment. Does not that mean that we can discuss this matter on the Adjournment?
Mr. Speaker: Yes, but there is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. It was obvious that the Leader of the Opposition had a statement to make which I thought perhaps was not in Order in reply to a statement. Therefore, I appealed to the Government Chief Whip to move the Adjournment. It was a request from me. The Chief Whip moved the Adjournment at my request because I saw that the Leader of the Opposition had some remarks to make on behalf of the Opposition as a whole. I thought that the House would not want to take advantage of that and thus spoil the next Debate.
Mr. Hogg: On a point of Order. I think that most of us appreciate the courtesy of the Chief Whip in moving the Motion at the point at which he did. We applaud the motives which led him to do that. But, after all, this is a somewhat important question. If the House consents to the withdrawal of this Motion, as the right hon. Gentleman now seeks to withdraw it, would it be possible before that is done, for the Leader of the House to give some indication that we shall have some opportunity to discuss this matter at some other time? Speaking for myself, I could never consent to the withdrawal of this Motion unless I was assured that this most important constitutional issue could be properly ventilated in the House.
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Further to that point of Order. The hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) is needlessly complicating the situation. It was perfectly obvious that the Leader of the Opposition felt strongly about the matter.
Mr. Churchill: I felt bound to make a statement.
Mr. Morrison: Believe me, I am not trying to be controversial. The Leader of the Opposition felt that he had to make a statement perhaps outside the ordinary limits of a supplementary question. You, Sir, made an appeal to my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip to move the Adjournment. We consulted, and the Adjournment was moved. Obviously, this must be an exceptional case, and if we do not get on with the Business—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] It must be an exceptional case. Otherwise the Chief Whip will not move the Adjournment again. The Chief Whip, with my full concurrence, as a matter of courtesy to the Leader of the Opposition—and I think it was a proper courtesy—moved the Adjournment. If the position is to be abused, obviously he will not do that again. I cannot enter into any bargaining as to the conditions upon which the withdrawal will take place. I ask the House to be good enough to allow the Chief Whip to withdraw the Motion. If anybody wants to talk about this matter, conversations can proceed through the usual channels. I will not enter into any bargain as a condition to the Motion being withdrawn.
Mr. Churchill: Further to that point of Order. I am bound to say that these questions have been put to you, as you know, Sir, on a very serious statement which has been made by the Government Front Bench. It was a statement of policy on which, evidently, something was required to be said to indicate the position of the Opposition. Undoubtedly, it raises difficult questions as to exactly what should be said, or at what length such a statement may be made. I fear that, in what I was saying, I may perhaps have used language a little more definite than should have characterised an ordinary statement in response to a Government declaration, but I do think that this is a matter of great, and even of historic, importance. My hon. and right hon. Friends behind me who are associated with me feel that their position must be safeguarded at this stage in the interests of the House, and it was in that sense that I ventured to trespass, but I am grateful to the Chief Whip for having moved the Motion for the Adjournment, which, of course, placed me in Order. I trust that my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side will make sure that the progress of Government Business is not hampered or prolonged as the result of the Chief Whip having moved the Adjournment as an act of courtesy, and also, I think, for the general convenience of the House.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Gallacher: I will only take two minutes, but it is necessary that I should say something. While agreeing with the Prime Minister and the Government on the necessity of treating the Irish in this country as they have always been treated, and making no change, it is very necessary that we should go into these things with a clear idea of what we are doing, because the Leader of the Opposition again referred to the Government of Southern Ireland. There is no Government of Southern Ireland. I drew attention in this House to this matter when the Act for the cession of the ports was being passed, and when this House was passing an Act legalising and recognising the Government of Eire. It is the only Government which has legal recognition and not de facto recognition, and I want to ask the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that he now recognises, not only

1423
the Eire Government but the Republic of Ireland, if he will follow the logic of that course, remove the partition, remove the substitute for a Government in Northern Ireland and provide for close and friendly co-operation between Ireland and this country.
Mr. Whiteley: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings in Committee on Civil Defence [Money] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. H. Morrison.]

IRON AND STEEL BILL (ALLOCATION OF TIME)
4.3 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I beg to move,
"That the proceedings on the Committee stage, Report stage, and Third Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill shall be proceeded with as follows:
(1) Committee stage

(a) The Standing Committee to which the Bill is referred shall report the Bill to the House on or before the seventeenth day of March next.

(b) At a Sitting at which any proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under a Resolution of the Business sub-committee as agreed to by the Standing Committee, the Chairman shall not adjourn the Committee under any order relating to the Sittings of the Committee until the proceedings have been brought to a conclusion.

(c) At a Sitting at which any proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under such a Resolution, no Motion relating to the Sittings of the Committee, no dilatory Motion with respect to proceedings on the Bill or the adjournment of the Committee, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be moved except by the Government, and the Question on any such Motion (other than a Motion relating to the Sittings of the Committee), if moved by the Government, shall be put forthwith without any debate.

(d) On the conclusion of the Committee stage of the Bill the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without Question put.

(2) Report stage and Third Reading

(a) Four allotted days shall be given to the Report stage (including any proceedings on the re-committal of the Bill).

(b) One allotted day shall be given to the Third Reading, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion at 9.30 p.m. on that day.

(c) Any day other than a Friday on which the Bill is put down as the first Order of the Day shall be considered an allotted day for the purposes of this order.

(d) Any Private Business which has been set down for consideration at 7 p.m. and any Motion for Adjournment under Standing Order No. 9 on an allotted day shall on that day, instead of being taken as provided by the Standing Orders, be taken at the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill or under this order for that day, and any private Business or Motion for Adjournment so taken may be proceeded with, though opposed, notwithstanding any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

(e) On a day on which any proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under any Resolution of the Business committee as agreed to by the House or under this order, those proceedings shall not be interrupted under the

1425
provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

(f) On a day on which any proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under any Resolution of the Business committee as agreed to by the House or under this order, no dilatory Motion with respect to proceedings on the Bill or under this order, nor Motion to re-commit the Bill, shall be moved unless moved by the Government, and the question on any such Motion, if moved by the Government, shall be put forthwith without any debate.

(3) General

(a) For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion at a time appointed by a Resolution of the Business sub-committee, as agreed to by the Standing Committee, or by a Resolution of the Business committee, as agreed to by the House, or by this order, and which have not previously been brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Mr. Speaker shall, at the time so appointed, put forthwith the question on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and, in the case of a new clause which has been read a Second time, also the question that the clause be added to the Bill, and shall next proceed to put forthwith the questions on any Amendments, new clauses or new schedules moved by the Government of which notice has been given (but no other Amendments, new clauses or new schedules), and any question necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded, and, in the case of Government Amendments or Government new clauses or Government new schedules, he shall put only the questions that the Amendments be made or that the clauses or schedules be added to the Bill, as the case may be.

(b) Nothing in this order or in a Resolution of the Business sub-committee or Business committee shall—

(i) prevent any proceedings which thereunder are to be concluded on any particular day or at any particular Sitting being concluded on an earlier day or at an earlier Sitting, or necessitate any particular day or Sitting or part of a particular day or Sitting being given to any such proceedings if those proceedings have been otherwise disposed of; or

(ii) prevent any other Business being proceeded with on a particular day, or part of a particular day, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the House, if any proceedings to be concluded on that particular day, or part of a particular day, have been disposed of.

(c) In this order the expression 'Business committee' and 'Business sub-committee' respectively mean the Committee appointed under Standing Order No. 41, and the subcommittee appointed under Standing Order No. 64 of the Standing Committee to which the Bill is referred.

I move this Motion with regret. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. Members opposite, through that intervention, seem to be receiving it with pleasure, but
1426
I am genuinely sorry that it should be necessary to move this Motion. Perhaps I ought to make some explanatory observations in the first place, and come to reasons and precedents thereafter, and, of course, there are ample precedents for this course, dating from the Conservative Prime Minister, Lord Salisbury onwards.
So far as the proceedings in Standing Committee are concerned, the Motion prescribes as the time limit for these proceedings 17th March, 1949. This means that these proceedings can be spread over 11 Parliamentary weeks; and that, of course, takes no account of the Christmas Recess. It also means, as I interpret it, that, according as the Business Sub-Committee may decide, it would be possible, within that period, to provide for 35 sittings of the Standing Committee. [Interruption.] That will mean some afternoons, but it will give four more sittings in the Standing Committee than took place in the case of the Transport Bill. Of course, if hon. Members will cast their minds back to the Transport Bill, they will remember that it dealt with a series of industries, which was one of the arguments in favour of long proceedings, whereas this Bill deals with the single iron and steel industry. We are, then, providing more time in Standing Committee for the consideration of this Bill than was provided in the case of the Transport Bill, which dealt with a series of industries.
With regard to the proceedings on Report and Third Reading of the Bill, we provide for four allotted days for the Report stage, which is one more than was provided for the Report stage of the Transport Bill. So, here again, we are being on the generous side. One day is allotted for Third Reading, as to which I do not think there will be controversy, so far as the provision of time is concerned. These, then, are the time limits proposed for the different stages of the Bill.
Within the limits which I have just mentioned, Standing Orders 41 and 64 provide that the detailed allocation of time for the different parts of the Bill shall be settled by Business Committees. In the case of proceedings upstairs in Standing Committee, the Standing Order provides that the Standing Committee may appoint a Business Sub-Committee.
Mr. Peake: No, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. Mr. Speaker may appoint a Business Sub-Committee, with the Chairman of the Standing Committee in the chair. This is a fairly new procedure, which has already been applied in the case of certain Bills previously introduced in this Parliament. I think it is an improvement, because it gives an opportunity to hon. Members on various sides of the Committee, under the chairmanship of the Chairman of the Committee, to examine the total available time which the House has allotted for proceedings in Standing Committee, and then to try to agree as to the best use of that time. So far as the Report stage is concerned, we have not, up to now, used a Business Committee for the purpose of an Allocation of Time Order on the Floor of the House, and this will be the first time, I think, that a Business Committee will have been set up and utilised for this purpose.
I would urge upon all Members of the House who will be concerned in these matters, and particularly those who will be appointed to the Business Committees, that it will be a very good thing if this Business arrangement is well used. I quite understand a vote against the Allocation of Time Order and opposition to it; but, once it is passed, I think it would be a good thing if we all of us were to try to get the Business Committee procedure used with a view to securing the maximum examination of the Bill in the time available. I honestly think that, in the time that we propose to give, adequate examination of the Bill can take place in Standing Committee upstairs and on the Floor of the House—[Interruption.] I could not expect, even if I were right—and I think I am right—that the Opposition would concur in that statement, and I make no complaint about it. Whether I am right or not, I would urge that there should be co-operation on the Business Committees, so as to make the most sensible use of the time available.
So far as I am concerned, as Leader of the House, and so far as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply is concerned, as leading the Government forces in the Standing Committee, our bias in the working of the Business Com-
1428
mittee and in its arrangements for the detailed allocation of time within the limits laid down by the Order, will be to take a favourable view of the demands of the Opposition, subject to the business of the Committee being conducted in a way which is practicable, and with a view to getting some finality on the issues to be determined. That is to say, on any discussion in either of the Business Committees as to the particular use of the time available, our bias will be to agree with the Opposition, and to give them their head as to the utilisation of that time, subject to getting the business done.
Hon. Members may or may not agree, but, believe me, I am very genuine about this. I believe we are on the threshold of a considerable experiment in this field of procedure, and, entirely without prejudice to our respective views about the Bill, I think it is far better that these matters, so far as possible, shall be settled by agreement, with a bias in favour of the view of the minority as to the use of time, rather than that the majority should just clamp down on the minority. [Interruption.] I have no doubt that the noble Lord with his aristocratic instincts will find it difficult to enter into the spirit of what I am saying, but I assure him that that was a perfectly genuine request.
Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that in the case of the Transport Bill and the Town and Country Planning Bill adequate time was in fact given?
Mr. Morrison: I am not dealing with those two Bills at the moment, though I may do before I am done. At this moment I am dealing with the new chapter in our island story—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."] Who is ordering me about? I repeat, I am dealing with the new chapter in our island story whereby an Allocation of Time Order is being imposed from the beginning of the Committee stage, and not after the Committee stage has been operating for some time. There has often been a difficulty on the Report stage in the allocation of the time in relation to the different parts of a Bill. It has been difficult to allocate time in advance, with the result that, sometimes, chaotic situations have arisen. This has led to muddle and confusion, with the result that the time on Report has not been

1429
used to the best advantage. But, under the new Standing Order No. 41, we can amicably settle how to divide up the time within the overall limit. Let us seek to make the best use of it for the general convenience of the House, and thus effect a great improvement in our procedure.
It may be argued as, indeed, it has been on some other occasions in consultations that I have had, "Why do it now? Why not wait for a few weeks and see what progress the Standing Committee makes upstairs?" We had better be realistic about the situation. First of all, this is, I understand, a contentious Measure. It certainly sounded so, when I wound up the Debate on Second Reading. While the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) had a delightfully smooth time, I had an exciting one, and I gathered that there was controversy about the nature of this Bill. The Opposition have declared, as is their right, that they will fight and oppose this Bill from the beginning to the end. Therefore, we have to face that position. We seek o get this Bill through. That is what it was introduced for. The Government are, however, prepared, and, indeed, determined, to allow reasonably full time for the discussion of every aspect of the Bill.
My noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal, who is the Leader of the House of Lords, has impressed upon me the importance of getting the Bill to their Lordships in reasonable time for them to discharge their functions of examination and revision. I think that is a reasonable request. I have more than once said that I have a considerable admiration for the way in which their Lordships discharge their task of revision, so long as they do not get into the deep waters of high controversy and take desperate courses. I think, therefore, that it is the duty of this House—and certainly the duty of the Leader of the House, whoever he may be—to take into account not only the convenience of the House of Commons and the way it does its work, but also the convenience of their Lordships and the way in which they discharge their functions of revision.
Therefore I have freely undertaken to my noble Friend the Leader of the House of Lords that, so far as possible, I shall do everything I can to enable their Lordships to have sufficient time in which
1430
to discharge their undoubted rights and duties. There is another reason. If we did nothing and simply waited to see what progress was made in Standing Committee, we should repeat the circumstances in which the Transport Bill and the Town and Country Planning Bill met, not their Waterloo but their Guillotine. If we do it that way, what happens? On a Bill of this character either the Opposition obstructs in Committee upstairs, or, let us say, they are going to be a little bit leisurely.
Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew: If I may interrupt the right hon. Gentleman for a moment, I should like to say that I can only gather that he is suggesting that there was obstruction on the Transport Bill. I gather from his last point that he suggests that there had been obstruction and that that is why he seeks to apply the Guillotine. As Chairman of that Committee, I can assure him that there was no obstruction at all.
Mr. Morrison: The last thing that I should wish would be that there should be controversy across the Floor of the House between the Chairman of a Standing Committee and the Leader of the House, and, therefore, I do not pursue the subject. But indeed, I have made no accusations against the Transport Committee. I am dealing with the Steel Bill. I will deal with the Gas Bill in a minute.
In the case of the Steel Bill, the Opposition have declared, as they have every right to do, that they are going to fight this Bill with every means in their power from beginning to end, and indeed, that if they were to win the next election, the first business of the new Parliament would be to repeal the Act—all of which is perfectly understandable and constitutionally proper. But, having given notice of these doughty deeds which are to take place upstairs and on the Floor of the House, we must accept that they mean what they say.
If we delayed action on this Motion for some weeks, the processes of obstruction or of leisurely consideration would proceed. What should we have to do then? It is our view that we ought to get this Bill back from the Committee by 17th March. Time having been lost in the early weeks, we should still have

1431
to clamp down so that the Bill was returned by 17th March, and as a consequence the Opposition would be still further damaged by the time that they had lost either by obstruction, or by leisurely consideration, in the early stages.
Now we are a very reasonable Government, and we feel that the best course is to let the Opposition know where we stand from the beginning of the proceedings, in order that they can make their plans so as to make the most effective use of the time available, which in our judgment will be ample for adequate consideration of the Bill. One must also, of course, allow time for further consideration of possible Amendments which their Lordships' House might make. It is possible that they may wish to make Amendments to the Bill. It is just possible that we may not agree with those Amendments, and, therefore, further time may be needed for the exchange of views on Amendments which may be proposed.
The last thing in the world that we want, and the last thing in the world that the House of Commons ought to want, is a repetition of the somewhat disgraceful exhibition, as I think it was, which took place in Committee on the Gas Bill. I do not say that with any bitterness. Our people stood up to it very well and the Minister came through triumphant, but I do say that that kind of thing is really out of date. There is nothing clever about it. It merely becomes a competition in physical exhaustion, and, as a matter of fact, both sides stood it well. But of all ways, the way in which legislation is not best considered, is by these sittings of hour after hour, day after day and night after night. That it is not the way in which legislation ought to be considered.
Having had that experience on the Gas Bill, I indicated at the time, and so did my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, that we should have to take that lesson into account. That Bill was not a new departure. It followed on the Electricity Bill, which was concerned with a similar field, and it was not an exceptionally controversial Bill—nowhere near as controversial as this Bill is, for understandable reasons. Therefore, I think that the trouble on the
1432
Gas Bill was dreadful—and it was showing House of Commons procedure at its worst, and I had hoped that those bad old days had gone. They are not coming up again on this Bill——
Mr. I. J. Pitman: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Chairman of that Committee, may I ask what the trouble was? The Leader of the House has said that there was obstruction in the case of the Transport Bill. May I ask outright whether he is suggesting that there was obstruction in the Gas Bill?
Mr. Morrison: Yes, I am.
Mr. Pitman: The right hon. Gentleman is alleging that there was outright obstruction?
Mr. Morrison: Yes.
Mr. Pitman: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Chairman of that Committee, may I ask for your protection against an allegation which is against the traditions of this House and against the honour of the Chair?
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid it is not much good asking me. I was not on that Committee. I know nothing beyond the fact that it sat up night after night. The right hon. Gentleman may be right or wrong, but he is entitled to express his opinion about it.
Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: Further to that point of Order. In view of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, as these charges have been made both in the case of the Transport Committee and the Gas Committee, I take it that it will be in Order for hon. Members in reply to direct their speeches, to some extent, at any rate, to meeting the charges which the Lord President has made, as to whether or not obstruction did, in fact, take place in either of those Committees?
Mr. Murray: May I say that I happened to be on the Gas Committee? On many occasions the Minister gave way to the Opposition, and the Opposition continued the discussion for hours.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: Further to that point of Order. What I think my hon. Friend had in mind, and certainly

1433
what I wish to submit to you, Mr. Speaker is this: If there is obstruction either in this House or in a Committee of this House, I understand it to be the duty of the Chair to apply the Standing Orders. The submission I make to you is that when the right hon. Gentleman says that there was obstruction night after night in a Standing Committee, that is a deliberate attack upon the Chairman of that Standing Committee. As such, I submit to you further, Mr. Speaker, that the right hon. Gentleman ought to be directed by the Chair to withdraw his disgraceful imputation on the Chair in the Standing Committee.
Mr. Speaker: A good many interpretations could be put on the word "obstruction." Sometimes it may be an unworthy thing, and at other times it may be the legitimate effort of an Opposition to prevent the Bill becoming law. I think that is what the right hon. Gentleman meant, and therefore that is quite in Order.
Mr. Thorneycroft: I am not complaining about the Lord President at all. What I am asking is that if he makes these charges, which I take it from your Ruling he is entitled to make, hon. Members in reply should have a full opportunity of rebutting the charges which are made, and the Debate should be of that scope so that matters of that nature can be dealt with. That is all I was asking, and I should be glad of a Ruling on it now.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must not anticipate that I shall call him out of Order if he raises this point. Let him wait and see whether he catches my eye.
Mr. Michael Foot: Since the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) is not complaining of what was said by the Lord President of the Council, and since the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) is complaining, would it not save the time of this House if they fought out their argument in private?
Mr. Pitman: Further to my point of Order, which I think my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) clearly stated. The question which I am raising is one of a reflection on the Chair. The point at issue is an allegation of disgraceful obstruction. In the absence of the Chairman of that Committee, I am seek-
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ing a Ruling as to whether that is or is not a reflection on the conduct of that Committee, the Chairman of which had the right and the duty to see that there was no disgraceful obstruction.
Mr. Hogg: Before you answer that, Sir, may I add that I understood you were seeking to put upon the right hon. Gentleman's words the interpretation that the charge of obstruction referred only to the legitimate methods of the Opposition to prevent a Bill passing into law. My recollection of what the right hon. Gentleman said—and perhaps he will confirm this or interrupt me if I am wrong—was that this was a disgraceful scene unworthy of our Parliamentary procedure. I only wish your Ruling on this point: how is that consistent with the view that all he was referring to was the legitimate attempts of the Opposition to prevent a Bill with which they disagreed being passed into law?
Mr. Speaker: I do not allow any reflection on the Chair. I was kept up one night myself and what my comments were I had better not tell the House.
Mr. Morrison: After that somewhat lengthy interruption I will try to pick up the thread of the argument which I was pursuing. What I would recommend to hon. Gentlemen opposite, and particularly to the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg)—I do this in all humility—is that they should proceed with further study of Erskine May, if they have ever begun. They seem to get into their heads the idea that if anybody charges them with obstruction, he is using un-Parliamentary terms. It is laid down in Erskine May with the greatest firmness that the charge of obstruction is a perfectly fair Parliamentary charge.
I make the charge, and I stick to it, that there was obstruction. In my judgment, sitting up all day and all night on the consideration of a Bill with the view to turning it out word-perfect is a procedure which, I have no doubt, would be regarded by the hon. Member for Oxford as being a perfect psychological and mental process, but, with great respect, the boy from Stockwell Road Elementary school does not agree with him. I hope that procedure will not be repeated, because I thought the House had been getting out of these bad

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old habits and this Motion is designed to see that they do not slip back into them.
I mentioned at the time, as did my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, that the experiences of the Gas Bill Committee would be remembered. We are not moving this Motion in any spirit of revenge. We are merely taking this course in the light of experience and in the light of threats as to the shape of things to come. We are anxious that they shall not assume that particular shape. In the case of the Gas Bill, the proceedings in Standing Committee were exceptional in length and tedium. They lasted 127 hours and occupied no fewer than 42 issues of HANSARD—all in the Standing Committee of that modest Bill. As I have said, this was not because the Gas Bill was without precedent; it followed on at least one other Bill, if not more. Nor was it full of defects which required all that degree of attention. It was for the reasons I have indicated—that the Opposition seized every opportunity of delay; and this meant that the time was not used to the best advantage.
I affirm, therefore, that this is not the best way of using Parliamentary time; but that we can use Parliamentary time well with the help of this Allocation of Time Order. We can use it well and sensibly and get a better examination of the Bill. Otherwise, it is quite clear that hon. Members will be tempted to take the wrong path, which would be a pity. It is better, therefore, to keep the thing within adequate and, as I think, generous limits, and to obtain co-operation in the use of the time, if we can.
I have said before that I do not like the Guillotine procedure. It is a last resort which is obviously necessary in this case. Nevertheless, I do not like it. I do not like moving it and I should not like to be a victim of it. I do not like the austere words of this Motion, which sound severe, when you come to read them in cold print. I shall not like the clang of the blade, as it descends at 9.30 on certain nights. I should have preferred an agreed timetable, such as was worked with some success, I have been told—I do not know; I do not believe I was in the House at the time—on the Government of India Bill, and which again was successfully used on the
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Education Bill, 1944. Of course, that was in war-time conditions and under a Coalition Government.
An approach was made to the Opposition to that end, but the Opposition were not willing to meet us on the point. I am not complaining about that at all. I understand their feelings perfectly and I do not blame them. Nevertheless, having sought to do it by agreement and having found that impossible, we are left with no alternative but to devise a timetable. I have said that there are plenty of precedents for the Allocation of Time Order or the Guillotine. In its present form, the so-called Guillotine was, indeed, the invention of a Conservative Government. That is a perfectly respectable origin for the Guillotine in this form. I pay my tribute to them and express my indebtedness to them for teaching us what we are now applying. It was first used by Lord Salisbury's Government as long ago as 1887.
Mr. Eden: But not upstairs.
Mr. Morrison: Oh, no, they did not go upstairs. That was for a very good reason. I remember reading some memoirs—it was the biography by Mr. A. G. Gardner of the late Sir William Harcourt—in which it was said that in the days of the Liberal Government, at the end of the last century, they had a deputation of back benchers who asked the Prime Minister or the Leader of the House, "Could not we have one party Bill a Session?" That is the way they went on. It was their way of living. They lived a most leisurely life on the Floor of the House, when even First Readings could be debated for four days. Of course they did not go upstairs. They preferred to be down here, living their leisurely life.
There really is no crime in taking the Committee stage of a Bill in Committee. The Standing Committee Procedure was invented later on and has been utilised from time to time by all Governments. The only difference between this and other Governments on the point is that we have organised it somewhat more rationally and sensibly than other Governments have; but there is nothing new in it. It does not matter, of course, whether it was down here on the Floor of the House or whether it was upstairs.

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Lord Salisbury's Government in 1887 applied this type of Guillotine—it is curious that Ireland should come up again so soon—on the Criminal Law Procedure (Ireland) Bill of that year. Another Conservative Government, Mr. Balfour's Government, used the Guillotine on three occasions, not for the great Measures of economic change like this, but for the Education Bill of 1902, the Licensing Bill of 1904, and the Aliens Bill of 1905. I am bound to say I am surprised that those Measures needed the Guillotine, but it was Mr. Balfour who brought the Guillotine down.
It was the Liberal Government—where are the Liberals? Not here. Something really ought to be done about the Liberal Party. There ought to be at least one Liberal here to hear one's comments.
Mr. Maclay: I should like to point out that there is one Liberal here.
Mr. Morrison: One solitary Liberal National has emerged, trying to mask himself as a genuine Liberal. Only one Liberal National out of—I do not know exactly how many—not very many, but a certain number. So there is one, and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman that he is here, and I shall report it to the Liberal Party when I meet them next.
The Liberal Governments of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman and Mr. Asquith made frequent use of the Guillotine. Indeed, they depended upon it for getting through most of their new social legislation at that time, the sort of legislation that we have got through quite well without the Guillotine. The Opposition are entitled to their share of the credit that we have got it through without the use of the Guillotine. But consider this, which shows how time marches on. They had to use the Guillotine for such Measures as the Old Age Pensions Bill, 1908. Evidently, the Tories had been up to some nasty work at the crossroads on the Old Age Pensions Bill, 1908.
The Liberal Government had to use it for such Measures as the Housing, Town Planning, etc. Bill, 1909, brought in by my old friend, John Burns, and the National Insurance Bill, 1911, as to which some controversy was raised by ladies of the West End who objected to the licking of stamps at the time. A number of the
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Guillotine Motions even at that time dealt with the whole of the Committee and Report stages in advance. Therefore, I think I ought to be able to count on the support of the Liberal Party, and even on that of the Liberal National element of the Conservative Party, for this Motion today. After the first World War Mr. Baldwin's second Government used the Guillotine for the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill, 1927, the Unemployment Insurance Bill. 1927, the Rating and Valuation Bill, 1928, the Local Government Bill, 1929—a great Measure of which I am a very considerable admirer.
We have all been infected by this at some time or another, ever since the respectable Lord Salisbury introduced it in 1887. This Government has been remarkably moderate in using the Allocation of Time Order. This is the first time we have used this procedure from the beginning, and we are now using it at the beginning for the benefit of the Opposition. We used it in respect of the other Bills only when we got into trouble. This is a moderate Government in this respect. Let me add this. It is also to the credit of the Opposition that, taken as a whole, they have dropped those old-fashioned and, I personally think, bad and discredited methods of mere obstruction and of wasting Parliamentary time, and the Opposition are entitled to their share of credit for that. It has not prevented the Opposition from vigorously expressing their point of view and voting against things in which they did not believe.
There is plenty of precedent and eminently respectable precedent, too, from all quarters for a Motion of this kind. In these circumstances I should have thought that after a few observations from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), and, no doubt, perfectly proper criticism and protests, the House would unanimously agree to the Motion.
4.45 p.m.
Mr. Eden: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Motion, to leave out from "That," to the end, and to add:
"this House declines to assent to the arbitrary curtailment of debate upon a measure vitally important to the economic life of the nation."

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The right hon. Gentleman produced one novel argument in the course of his speech in support of this Guillotine Motion, and that was his consideration for another place. That is an advance which we all register. Of course, it is a completely invalid argument, for it would be perfectly possible to give the House adequate time to discuss this Bill as it ought to be discussed and to send it to another place to be discussed there also. The right hon. Gentleman spent a lot of time in examining past precendents for the Guillotine, completely ignoring the fact that all those examples he gave were in respect of the application of the Guillotine on the Floor of the House. He seems to be completely unwilling to open his mind to the fact that there is in our judgment all the difference in the world between the discussion of a major Bill by the whole of this House and its being sent upstairs to be discussed by one-twelfth of the Members of the House.
Mr. H. Morrison: Will the right hon. Gentleman give me a categorical assurance that if this Bill, or another Bill, were taken on the Floor of the Chamber, he would then welcome the Allocation of Time Order?
Mr. Eden: No. I look at my obstacles one at a time. If the right hon. Gentleman were to come to me and say, "We prefer to take this Bill on the Floor of the House," that would be an advance, and I should register it with pleasure. As to what would happen after that, I should be quite ready to discuss with the right hon. Gentleman through the usual channels. I think that is perfectly fair. The right hon. Gentleman would not expect me, surely, to buy a pig in a poke? Would the right hon. Gentleman like me to move the Adjournment so that that matter could be examined? No? That is rather disappointing. I thought we were getting on.
Then the right hon. Gentleman gave us examples of Sittings. He was squeamish about the Gas Bill, and he talked about our attitude to the Old Age Pensions Bill, 1908—before my day, I am afraid. However, I remember another pensions Bill, Mr. Chamberlain's Widows' and Old Age Pensions Bill, on which we sat up all night, night after night, I do not know
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for how long, because hon. Gentlemen opposite did not like it. I do not say that that was wrong. Nor do I think it is always wrong that this House should sit late or devote itself arduously to the examination of a Bill. Which is he better, that the House should only half examine a Bill, or examine it by a third, by this Procedure, or examine it fully even if it involves late Sittings?
The right hon. Gentleman was very squeamish about Debates on the Gas Bill, but I am not sure he was fair as to the results. If he will look at the record of the Report stage, he will find that there were no fewer than 111 Amendments moved by the Government themselves. Why did the Government have to do that? Presumably because in the course of the Committee stage—which the right hon. Gentleman thought was a dreadful obstruction and to which he takes such exception—the Opposition had been able to persuade the Government that those Amendments were necessary; and so when we came to the Report stage 111 Amendments were moved by the Government, 108 of which were accepted. That seems to me to show that the time spent on the Gas Bill was not wholly wasted.
When I come to make an observation or two on the Transport Bill in a moment, we shall see what a travesty of an examination that Bill had, because of what the Government did. The right hon. Gentleman said—and I am not making any complaint about it—that we had a number of late Sittings. I was interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman's view about late Sittings. I did not know he was so unalterably opposed to late Sittings. Perhaps, in another Parliament than this, I shall be able to remind him of what he has said. I would remind him now that it was at our suggestion that the Local Government Bill was split into two portions, a part being sent to the Scottish Grand Committee and a part to the Standing Committee. Had that course not been followed, then indeed we might have taken a great deal longer than we did. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman's criticisms on that are justified; nor do I really believe he has much faith in them himself.
The right hon. Gentleman asks why did we not have discussions about a timetable? I am making no complaint about that. It was perfectly proper for him

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to make an approach. But I think it is only fair that I should tell the House why we did not feel that we could have discussions in this case. In the first instance, we did not feel we could because we consider, as I have said already, that the Committee stage of a Bill of this magnitude ought to be taken on the Floor of the Chamber. That is absolutely fundamental to our attitude.
The Second Reading having gone against us—and I do not question it; I should not be in Order if I did—at least we consider that the Committee stage should be ample and that the Report stage should be spacious. When the right hon. Gentleman was ready to discuss this matter of the allocation of time within the limits of which he has told us—to 17th March—I must confess that it seemed to me that it was absolutely futile to suppose that we could adequately examine the Bill in Committee by 17th March, and so I could not see any value in the discussions whatever.
Frankly, I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that, despite all that he has told us about this Business Committee, I cannot see how it is possible to make a useful plan to guillotine this Bill on this occasion. Never until this Parliament have major Bills of the Session—and this is surely the major Bill of the Session—been sent upstairs and never until this Parliament has a Bill been guillotined in Committee upstairs. Those are two innovations which the right hon. Gentleman completely ignores. I cannot see how we can hope to arrange a fair method of guillotining for a Bill of this character. How can the Minister tell which parts of the Bill, when we come to the Committee stage, will require more discussion than other parts? We may take a general view now on examining the Bill, but everyone who has served on a Committee knows that the general view taken may be proved absolutely wrong when one gets down to detailed discussion. All sorts of topics emerge that are not apparent when the Bill is first discussed. I say that our fundamental objection is to the guillotining of any major legislative Measure in a Standing Committee upstairs. I repeat that there seems to us to be absolutely no basis for negotiation.
No one, certainly not the right hon. Gentleman, is going to deny the wide significance of this Bill. All of us on
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both sides of the House are agreed that the future of this industry is fundamental to our national life. That is why we moved that the Bill should be committed to a Committee of the Whole House. Over and over again, hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have been eloquent about the essential nature of this Bill; it is the keystone in respect of our future industrial life.
I want to touch in this argument on the constitutional aspect of this matter. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's argument at the conclusion of his speech the other night, was that this was a constitutional Measure, since there was a Parliamentary majority for it, and therefore the Constitution itself was concerned in getting the Bill passed. I do not think that that is a misrepresentation of the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have the actual words if any one wants them to be quoted.
Mr. Morrison: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would quote them?
Mr. Eden: The Chancellor of the Exchequer was answering two questions concerning opposition to the Bill. He went on:
"This challenge having been put forward by private interests, it is essential that democracy should assert its right, as otherwise it must acknowledge for all time that it cannot touch these citadels of power, and that it is not the electorate but the owners of industrial property who shall determine the economic policies of the country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 326.]
If that is not a constitutional issue, I do not know what is.
Mr. Morrison Mr. Morrison indicated dissent.
Mr. Eden: Nothing could more completely show that the Constitution is concerned than the observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day. I do not see how his words can possibly square with the assurance which the right hon. Gentleman gave to my hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) some little time ago when my hon. Friend said that he understood that the Government's policy was that every Bill that could be said to contain serious constitutional implications should be taken on the Floor of the House; to which the right hon. Gentleman replied. "Yes." Personally, I have never accepted that

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doctrine. I think that the right doctrine is that every Bill which deeply affects the life of the nation as a whole should be taken on the Floor of this House. I cannot see how anyone can pretend that a Bill admittedly aimed at removing the citadels of power from one section of the people to another does not affect the constitutional position. That is the argument which I submit.
I cannot argue about the decision of the House to send the Bill upstairs, but surely that decision makes it all the more important that the scrutiny which the Bill receives in Committee should be thorough and complete. That is the real crux of the matter. Do the Government want the House to join in shaping their Bills, or do they simply want to present their Bills to the House and force them through by means of their great majority? The right hon. Gentleman might like to make a little calculation. If he adds up the votes cast in the General Election for those who voted against this Bill and for those who voted for the Bill on Second Reading, he will find that there was a small but adequate majority against the Bill. I have included the Liberals and the Independents. I can give him the actual figures if he wants them. It was a majority of approximately 220,000 against the Bill.
Mr. Morrison: Are we to be told about these mathematical calculations concerning the electors at the General Election, when it is the case that the leader of the Liberal Party, before the General Election, had signed on the dotted line in favour of the Steel Bill? The Liberal Party, as a whole, had accepted principles not inconsistent with the Steel Bill; now it is argued that there was a majority of 220,000 electors voted against the Steel Bill. Does the right hon. Gentleman include the Liberals among the electors who voted against the Bill?
Mr. Eden: It is no part of my task to explain the policy of the Liberal Party to the right hon. Gentleman. All I have done is to add up the figures in respect of those who voted against the Bill and put them against the figures for those who voted for the Bill, and result is to put the Government in a minority of approximately 220,000. [Interruption.] It will be much better next time I agree,
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but that is for the moment. I use that argument as another reason why the Government should have used every possible precaution to ensure that this Bill was adequately discussed.
We regard this timetable as wholly indefensible. It provides that the Committee stage shall be finished in an automatic way in insufficient time. The four days allotted to the Report stage, if experience is any guide at all, will be quite derisory. It is approximately the same amount of time as the Government of the day gave to the Government of India Act. Although the whole of the Committee stage of that Bill was taken on the Floor of the House, four days were thought proper for the Report stage. No extra time has been allotted, although the Committee stage of this Bill is being taken upstairs. We have experience of two major Measures which have already been guillotined in Committee upstairs during the life of this Parliament—the Transport Bill and the Town and Country Planning Bill. Each of those was a little more fortunate than this Measure, because each was given more free discussion before the Guillotine fell—discussion which has been described by everyone concerned as being useful discussion. This time there are no free days.
I ask the House to look at what happened to those two Measures. I regard it as a national scandal. Take the Transport Bill first. The Standing Committee on the Transport Bill had 31 Sittings. The Standing Committee on this Bill may have a few more if it sits in the afternoons—a bad habit if Members are to attend to their duties in the House. At the end, the position was that 37 out of 127 Clauses and seven out of 13 Schedules had not been considered at all. Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that that was adequate discussion for a Bill of that magnitude? On the Report stage, may I remind the Home Secretary, the Guillotine fell at Clause 38 out of 127 Clauses. Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that that was proper discussion of that Bill on the Report stage? [Interruption.] It is the Government's own Guillotine; it is not our fault; we had no control over the matter. I must point out that the Government themselves introduced no fewer than 200 Amendments in Committee, of which 94 had

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not been reached when the Guillotine fell. What is that but reducing the whole proceedings of Parliament to a farce? Is that what is to happen to this Bill, which, on the Government's own admission, is probably the most important this Parliament has yet seen?
But I have not yet finished with the examples. Let us take the Town and Country Planning Bill. On that, there were 25 Sittings in Committee; 52 of the 108 Clauses and six of the nine Schedules were not discussed—just about half the Bill. Is that regarded as satisfactory? The Report stage ended when 14 of the 108 Clauses had been discussed. Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that to be serious Parliamentary procedure? Of course it is not; it merely results in incompletely examined Bills going to another place, as I shall show in a minute. Of course, the Government may say: "By now we are getting so used to introducing nationalisation Measures that we can draft them a bit better than we have done so far." That may be the argument; I do not know. Whole pieces may be lifted from one Bill and put into another. On the Report stage of the Town and Country Planning Bill there were 200 Government Amendments, 50 of which were not discussed at all—once again, absolutely derisory as serious Parliamentary discussion. And the result? These Bills go to another place in a condition which can be judged from the figures I have given.
What happens in another place? On the Transport Bill the Government moved 139 Amendments of their own, and accepted 91 of our Amendments, which there had not been time to examine in this House, the elected assembly. Knowing the right hon. Gentleman's regard for another place, I was surprised that he should wish to ignore the elected assembly in this way. In another place, on the Town and Country Planning Bill the Government moved 289 Amendments and accepted 47 of our Amendments. Can that Bill have left this House in splendid shape? I ask the House to examine the position with regard to those two Measures, which must constitute an all-time record in Parliamentary history. Those two Bills were altered in another place by 230 and 336 Amendments respectively. Is this Bill to be treated like
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that, too? The right hon. Gentleman cannot seriously believe that that is what should happen.
Mr. Mellish: While acknowledging the point of view of the Opposition, I would point out that at the rate the Standing Committee dealt with the Transport Bill, of about a Clause a day, it would have been nearly a year before the Committee stage was completed. Does the right hon. Gentleman say that if the Opposition had been the Government of the day and had introduced a Bill on those lines, they would have allowed it to go on in that way?
Mr. Eden: We cannot be reproached on that score, because we have always opposed sending major Bills upstairs. If there was the possibility of a Bill going as slowly as that, it could be taken on the Floor of the House, with more Sittings, including late Sittings. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the mere fact that these Bills now normally go upstairs increases the importance of the Report stage. In the old days it will be remembered that when Bills were discussed on the Floor of the House the Report stage was, to a large extent, a formality. But now, if these Measures go upstairs, they are not, except on Report, discussed by five-sixths of the House, so that the figures I have given are really much worse than they appear to be.
I must for a moment pray in aid another quotation. I am sorry to weary the House with these quotations, but this is very germane to what we are discussing; and I beg the Lord President to believe that we do view this as a very serious matter indeed. This was something said in 1937, on a quite different occasion, in relation to a Standing Order—nothing, of course, so drastic as this. This is the language then used:
"This House has never been a mere assembly for registration. It has never been a mere debating society. It has never merely been a House which the Government use as an instrument of registration …Where certain Members oppose the Bill in principle they take an active part in trying to make it workable."
How can we do that under this ridiculous Guillotine procedure!
"Therefore, every Bill that goes through the House becomes in that way the work of the whole House.

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The importance of that procedure is that the experience and ideas of the Members of the House are brought into the common pool. That is the traditional British method and the democratic method."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 8th March, 1948; Vol. 321, c. 815–6.]
But that is not the method the right hon. Gentleman is pursuing when he takes a Bill out of the reach of five-sixths of the House and brings it back in front of us for only four days. That quotation, as the Lord President probably knows, is from the present Prime Minister himself.
Mr. Morrison: I thought it might be me.
Mr. Eden: The right hon. Gentleman is probably greatly relieved to hear it is not, but I wish he would live up to it.
Let me deal for a moment with the Report stage, and here I must call the Chair as a witness. It also has reference to what the hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. Mellish) said just now. It is important that the House should understand the fundamental change in our procedure which is brought about by sending these major Bills upstairs while getting no corresponding increase of time on Report. We are offered four days; those four days to include, if you please, any recommittal for righting any of the Government's mistakes—although perhaps the Government do not make mistakes, but learn as they go on. Those four days are to include any Amendments the Government wish to make, and any recommittal of their own—which past experience shows might easily last a day and a half or two days; we cannot tell; and there is no criticism that it should. I urge that at least the Report stage ought to be exclusive of recommittal on the Government's own Clauses. In the Select Committee on Procedure the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) asked Mr. Speaker:
"Did I understand aright that your view was that, if nearly all Bills are referred to Standing Committees, that would reasonably demand that a longer time should be given to the Report stage for debate? "
This is Mr. Speaker's answer:
"I think that is inevitable. After all, if a Bill goes before a Standing Committee it is going before one-sixth of the House."
As a matter of fact, it is very much less than one-sixth now.
"If it has been before a Committee of the Whole House, I see no reason for calling the
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Amendments on Report unless they are of tremendous importance; but when it has been before one-sixth of the House I cannot apply the selection so drastically."
In other words, in Mr. Speaker's view, to send a Bill of major importance upstairs does involve an obligation on the Government to give more time on Report for an examination by the Whole House, because otherwise the Whole House cannot give it proper consideration. We have here a Bill which is to be guillotined upstairs and then brought down to the Floor of the House for four days on Report, out of which we cannot tell how much time the Government will themselves take in respect of recommittal on their own Clauses.
Mr. George Porter: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the quorum for a Standing Committee is really very little different from a quorum for the Whole House?
Mr. Eden: I understand the point of the hon. Member's question, but that is not really the issue, because when a Bill is taken on the Floor of the House any hon. Member can take part in the discussion; it means that the nation as a whole is, geographically and industrially, represented. When a Bill is taken upstairs to a small Committee of 50 Members, then that Committee is neither geographically nor industrially representative of the nation. It is my view—and I hope I shall be able to live up to it in due course—that these major Bills should be discussed on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Porter: Is it not a fact that the small Committee upstairs is constituted of Members who have accepted an individual responsibility in regard to the Bill; and is it not therefore obvious that if the Bill were taken on the Floor of the House, the added attendance would not make any difference to the width of discussion?
Mr. Eden: No doubt every effort is made to make the Committee upstairs representative, but my argument is that this House is representative of the nation, and when the nation has before it a major Bill this House is the place in which it should be discussed, and not some Committee composed of a selected minority, however admirable they may be, in some other part of the building.
I am sorry to detain the House so long, but there are one or two further considerations I must put to the right hon.

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Gentleman on why we consider this Bill requires special treatment. He spoke as though the Transport Bill deserved a longer time for consideration than this Bill. We think that the problems raised by this Bill are even wider and deeper than those raised by the Transport Measure, and I want to mention one or two reasons for that. First of all, the form taken by nationalisation, that of a holding company, is something entirely new in our national experience and legislation, and that will need very close examination by the Committee. There are 107 companies which are to be taken over, which is a far larger number than in the case of the railways. It ought to be the duty of the Committee to examine in detail the list of companies which are to be nationalised, and no doubt many points will arise during that discussion as to whether the Government's criterion ought to be applied to each one of these undertakings, which means 107 discussions.
Then there is the question of compensation, which still is not in any way settled. We have still had no kind of reply to the question I put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the Second Reading Debate, when I reminded him of what the Master of the Rolls had said, which seems to conflict entirely with the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to how compensation should be paid and the justice of it. That also has to be examined. But there are other topics which must be examined. There is the question of the relationship between the State Corporation and the private competing firms. That, again, is something novel.
The form of the Bill raises all sorts of problems of a grave and far-reaching character that were not raised by the previous nationalisation Measures. The Government maintain that competition between the State monopoly and private firms will be on a fair basis, but where is the guarantee for that in the Bill? As it stands at present, the Minister has complete power to sweep out of business any inconvenient competitor. We want to discuss at length the question of fair safeguards so that firms that are called upon to face competition with the State Corporation can do so under fair conditions. The same applies to the consumer, who is more cavalierly treated here than he was under the preceding
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Measures. The only provision is for consumer councils, but our experience of the other nationalisation Measures does not make us think that much will come out of that. We had more than that in the case of the Transport Bill. We had a tribunal set up which exercised some supervision over charges, but there is nothing of that kind in this Bill. The only reference to charges is in the general dully imposed on the Corporation by Clause 3. There must be a thorough consideration of this problem of charges and consumer protection, and we on this side shall have many arguments and suggestions we shall wish to raise on this point.
Then there is the question of the powers of the Minister. He may say that his powers under this Bill differ very little from the powers of other Ministers under the earlier nationalisation Measures, and I think there is some truth in that, but it does not mean that they are of any less importance to our national life when put into the scope of this Bill. One of the Government's arguments, used in their Jekyll mood, in favour of this Bill is that it will make no immediate difference to the structure of the industry.
Mr. Morrison: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean the naughty one or the nice one?
Mr. Eden: It is to the cooing we are referring. We are told that the Government's contention is that the present firms will be allowed to go on very much as they are at present. If that is so and this new Corporation is going to be ridden on the slackest possible reins——
Mr. Mellish: On a point of Order. Surely this is a speech which should have been made on the Second Reading of the Bill.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I think that the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman is moving, widens the scope of the Debate very considerably.
Mr. Eden: That is what we had in mind when drafting it. I merely want to say to the right hon. Gentleman that if this Corporation is to be ridden on the slackest possible reins, why is it that the powers given to the Minister—and I hope we shall have an answer to this—are fully as sweeping and as comprehensive as the

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powers given to his colleagues who have already been put in charge of other nationalised industries? If they are not to be used, why are these powers so wide? We want to put forward Amendments to clarify this position and to limit the sweeping powers given to the Minister.
There is another point in this connection which we want to discuss. The argument was advanced by the right hon. Gentleman that the present system of public supervision of privately owned and managed industry was that the Government could impose a veto but could not insist on detailed projects being carried out. This was the excuse that the Government offered for interfering with the industry, and yet on the face of the Bill the Minister will have no power to order the undertaking of any specific project. That is another matter we shall want to discuss. Does the Minister maintain that he still has powers to issue directions on specific matters under this Bill? That is just the kind of problem we shall have to discuss.
Finally, but by no means exhaustively, there is the whole question of the Government's plan and policy for the future of the steel industry. The right hon. Gentleman tried to twist what I said the other night into suggesting that I had asked for the inclusion in the Bill of the detailed plans for the future of the industry. I did not ask anything of the kind. As we all know, the detailed plans for the future of the industry have already been agreed upon by the industry and the Government, and are in process of being carried out. But there ought to be a discussion in Committee on the Government's policy in regard to major matters connected with the steel industry. We ought to have an opportunity upstairs to elicit from the Government their views on these matters.
We shall want to know whether the Government have any plans in mind for integrating the various companies in various areas, and if so, what those plans are. We shall want to know what views, if any, the Government have on the subject of plant location and price policy. On many of these matters we shall have suggestions to offer, and all this is to be done under the Guillotine. These are matters which cannot be passed over lightly but must be discussed if this
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House is to do its duty. The proposals laid before the House this afternoon by the Government will make it impossible to carry out a proper examination of this Bill in Committee or on Report.
Of all the Government's actions in defiance of Parliamentary democracy, this is the worst they have done yet. Before any detailed discussion of the Bill has commenced, the Government have laid down their inadequate timetable. They have no reason or excuse. They do not tell us what all this hurry is about, and I completely fail to understand why we should be forced to work to such a timetable. We have a long Session and ample time to examine the Bill in a manner that the subject deserves. We think that Parliament should discharge its duties by this Measure, but this timetable denies us the right to do so, and therefore I ask the House to reject this Motion wholesale.
5.19 p.m.
Mr. David Eccles: I cannot understand, after listening to the Lord President of the Council why he has put down this Motion. I imagine that he is interested in his popularity in the country. If this were the first nationalisation Measure, it would make little difference to the electorate if he pushed it through in a great hurry, but the fact is that we have now reached the point where nationalisation is on trial. It is fair to say that the floating vote of this country is doubtful now whether the National Coal Board, for example, is a success or a failure. The Government are making a political present to this side of the House in allowing us to go on any platform and, within two or three minutes, remind the audience that the Coal Board is a failure, that this is now a melancholy fact and not Tory speculation, that the first five Clauses of the Iron and Steel Bill are lifted from the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, and that although numerous weaknesses in the Coal Board have been incorporated in this Bill we are not to be allowed in Committee the time that is necessary to improve this vital part of the Bill.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) compared the time taken to deal with the Transport Bill and the Gas Bill with the time that will be available for this Bill. I want to refer to another example—the

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Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill, on the Standing Committee of which I served. When the House has accepted the principle of nationalisation of an industry on Second Reading, however much we are against it on this side of the House we go upstairs to Standing Committee determined to do our job, to make the Bill as workable as we can and as little harmful as possible to the country. No hon. Member opposite who served on the Standing Committee on the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill could accuse any of us on that Committee of any form of obstruction or leisurely proceeding.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, we understand, has persuaded important members of the American Government that the Iron and Steel Bill is different altogether from the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act. It is nothing of the kind. The first five Clauses are almost exactly the same. In Committee on the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill we took seven days to deal with the first two or three Clauses setting up the Coal Board, defining the functions of the Board and the powers of the Minister, and setting up consumers' committees which, incidentally, have done nothing. The same order in the Clauses is followed in the Iron and Steel Bill.
May I remind those Members who were on the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill Standing Committee that the Labour Members of that Committee gave us no help in the opening stages, which dealt with the organisation of the Coal Board, now under such criticism? It is true that when we came to the Clauses dealing with mineworkers we had valuable contributions from the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown), the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell), the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Blyton) and the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper) who crossed swords once or twice with the Minister. By and large, however, supporters of the Government on that Committee behaved like sheep who had forgotten even how to say "Baa" to the Parliamentary Secretary. The Liberal Party made practically no contribution at all throughout that Committee. But Members opposite will, I presume, talk on the Committee stage of the Iron and Steel Bill because they have had two years' experience of how the National
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Coal Board has been found wanting. It would be a dereliction of duty if they did not bring that experience to bear to improve this Bill.
It is not only that we hope that many more Members will speak, and that there is now a greater fund of experience about the organisation of nationalised industry, but that the organisation of the Iron and Steel Corporation will be much more difficult to deal with than was the set-up in the coal industry. It is easy to recognise a coal mine. We had some discussion upstairs about a few ancillary undertakings that came under the Coal Board, but here we are mutilating an industry; we are drawing an arbitrary line right across 2,000 firms. This demarcation will need to be discussed at great length if we are to do our duty properly.
I pass now to the question of the relationship between the Minister and the Iron and Steel Corporation, as set out in Clauses 2 and 4 of the Bill. How long does the House think that these Clauses need be discussed? They are almost identical with the opening Sections of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act. I ask any Member to read the first six lines of Clause 4, by which the Minister takes power to give general directions. We must deal with this Clause with great care, and try to see how we can put into the Bill a clear definition of the limits of authority between the Minister and the Corporation. What was wrong with the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill was that we could not tell who was to be the boss in the industry. It is equally impossible, as the Iron and Steel Bill is drafted, to know at what point the Corporation has full authority and at what point the Minister has the authority. We made this mistake with the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill, but we must not make that mistake a second time.
It does not matter whether we are Conservatives or Socialists; if we are to set up a great corporation to deal with a vital industry like iron and steel we must make it workable, or we shall all suffer. No one can say, from reading the Bill, with whom trade unions are to negotiate, or whether the Minister will settle wage policy or whether it will be the Corporation.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Bowles): I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to argue in detail the merits of the contents of the Iron and Steel Bill. Whatever he says must have some relation to the time limit as set out in the Motion on the Order Paper.
Mr. Eccles: No doubt I was not doing it so well as I should, Sir, but I was trying to show that there are many points of controversial nature in the Bill. So far, I have only discussed its first four Clauses. From our experience of a similar Measure we know that many days must be spent on these matters in Standing Committee if we are to argue them properly. I will not say how the powers should be divided; no doubt, we shall talk about that in Committee, but I say that some of the major weaknesses of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act are repeated in this Bill.
I must say a few words about the wretched Clause 6 which sets up consumers' committees. On Second Reading, the Lord President, if I recollect aright, said that the Bill would provide better protection for consumers than they had ever had before. There is nothing of the kind in the Bill. The Minister must set up a committee. What the committee is to do, is left entirely blank. I am quite certain that my hon. Friends will not be content with that. They will want to take away that part of the Clause which leaves the Minister a completely free hand to say how much protection consumers are to get, and they will want to substitute for that new Clauses and Amendments in order to safeguard those who will buy the products of the Iron and Steel Corporation. There is also a great omission in this part of the Bill which will need to be attended to, and which has already been mentioned by my right hon. Friend below me.
In this Bill, we have not only to discuss the safeguards for those who buy the products of the Iron and Steel Corporation; we have to discuss the safeguards for those who produce things in competition with the Corporation. They have no protection under the Bill at all. All of us in this House represent these taxpayers, who will be part owners of the Iron and Steel Corporation. Their money and their assets are going to be used in competition with their private Businesses Are we not to give them
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good and adequate safeguards? I can imagine that to be a very difficult thing to do, because it is novel to have to set up forms of safeguards to protect the whole range of engineering firms from unfair competition by the Corporation. That has not been done before, and that is all the more reason for giving us a great deal of time in which to study it and to get it right.
I now come to a serious omission in the Bill. Under Clause 3, which is a very short Clause, the general duty laid upon the Corporation is to produce iron and steel products. Nothing is said about selling anything or about the duties of the Corporation in the export markets. We cannot let that go through as it is. This is a most serious thing. The 107 firms now in the Schedule, all of whom we shall have to examine, possess large overseas assets. Something will have to be done about those assets. If the Bill goes through in its present form, I am absolutely certain that the Governments of the foreign countries in which those overseas assets are situated will retaliate by nationalising them. When they do that, they will do great harm to our overseas trade. Surely, that is something with which we have not had to deal before, and for the consideration of which we shall want a great deal of time. It is not just a question of amending this Bill; there will be some new Clauses of very considerable importance put down by my hon. Friends.
I do not wish to delay the House any more, but there is another aspect which is omitted from the Bill. When His Majesty's Government got Marshall Aid, they signed a number of obligations to the effect that they would discourage the use of certain business practices which are contained in an Appendix to the main Economic Recovery Act. Time and and again this Bill is contrary to the undertakings they gave there. Why should we pass a Bill which, in our opinion, breaks the undertakings given by the Government to a friendly country?
I ask the Government to withdraw their Motion for the following reason, which is in their own interests. The British people are very practical people; they are not at all afraid of experiments. Indeed, they have always made their history by trial and error, and they are quite willing, as we saw at the last Election,

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to experiment with nationalisation. This experiment is not working well, and the people of this country will consider very carefully any further powers to nationalise an industry for which Ministers may ask without, at the same time, giving their representatives in Parliament proper time to take into account the experience of the last two years, particularly that in regard to the National Coal Board.
Hon. Members opposite seem to me to be in far too great a hurry, and to be doing themselves damage. They are very much like restaurant waiters on a temporary basis—like the waiter who, having dropped three plates, skids back to the kitchen and immediately asks for five for his next trip. That is the impression which will get about the country if we are not allowed to discuss these things adequately. The real meaning of this Motion is contained in that line of Macbeth which says:
"Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill."
That has always been so. When men start on a wrong course, they get pushed along by some mysterious force, and go farther and farther in the wrong direction, and then they are touched—in this case by bringing in the Guillotine on this Bill—by a madness which marks them out for nearby destruction.
5.36 p.m.
Mr. McAllister: The hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles), who has spoken with his customary care and clarity, said that the Labour Party was in an awful hurry and that we were trying to get things done much too quickly. He fortified most of his arguments by reference to the Coal Board, and to what he regarded as the failure of the Coal Board. Had the party opposite shown any desire to hurry at all, they could have followed the lead of the Leader of the Opposition in 1923, when he was completely in favour of the nationalisation of the coalmining industry. They could have worked out their own scheme for the nationalisation of that industry, with all the beautiful safeguards which hon. Members opposite would no doubt regard as necessary. But the hon. Gentleman knows very well that the Conservative Party ignored every Commission that was ever set up in the coalmining
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industry, ignored all their recommendations, and did not introduce any legislation to put things right in that industry.
Also remarkable about the hon. Gentleman's speech, and even more remarkable about that of the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), was the fact that they denounced this Motion as something that was a breach of the Constitution. That is simply masquerading their defence of the companies involved in the Bill. They attempted to make out a constitutional case, but they did not make out a very good case because no great constitutional issue is involved. When the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the 107 companies affected, each one of whom, he said, would require a separate Debate—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is what the right hon. Gentleman said.
Mr. Eden: I said "examination" not "Debate."
Mr. McAllister: I accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation, but I think that the hon. Member for Chippenham did suggest that each one of the 107 companies would require discussion and examination. Indeed, he extended that a little further, and said that the 2,000 firms involved would require some examination. If that is the way in which we are going to discuss the nationalisation of the iron and steel industry then, indeed, we shall need oceans of time, and far more than is provided by the machinery set up. Surely, that is not the right way to approach the problem of nationalising any industry, and certainly not the iron and steel industry.
Hon. and right hon. Members opposite are as well aware as I am that although 107 companies may be involved in this nationalisation, the iron and steel industry of this country is not run by 107 companies, but by six companies. It is perfectly true that these companies have their directors on a hundred other companies, and what we are really proposing to do is to bring what is virtually a monopoly into the ownership of the State. Your predecessor in the Chair, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in answer to a point of Order, ruled that the Amendment put down by the Opposition does widen the scope of the Debate, and I propose to take advantage of that Ruling, because it does seem to me to widen the scope of the Debate

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very considerably. The Amendment says:
"this House declines to assent to the arbitrary curtailment of debate upon a measure vitally important to the economic life of the nation."
It is very interesting when hon. Members opposite are so concerned about the arbitrary curtailment of the Debate, and when they link this suggestion of arbitrary curtailment with the economic life of the nation. I am always concerned as to what hon. Members opposite mean by "the economic life of the nation." They are terribly concerned about the 107 companies that are to be nationalised. Did they ever show the same concern for the employees of the 107 companies now to be nationalised? I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) has just left the Chamber, because I cannot recall from his long career in this House, when he was representing, not the safe backwoodsman's seat of the Scottish Universities, but the county town of Lanark, that he initiated a Debate to discuss the arbitrary closing down of the Glasgow Iron and Steel Works in my home town, when 3,000 people were thrown into unemployment and poverty. Was not that a matter vital to the economic life of the nation, or was it something which the Conservative Party dismisses as not worth a second's consideration in this House or elsewhere? I have yet to learn that, when a much smaller works, the Pather Iron Works, closed down in Lanarkshire, any Debate was initiated by the Conservative Party in this House on behalf of the people who were thrown into unemployment and also into poverty.
I could have imagined that the Conservative Party, and especially hon. Members like the hon. Member for Chippenham, who has the advantage of most of his colleagues in that he is both informed and intelligent, might have initiated a Debate on the economic consequences of the move of Stewart and Lloyds from Mossend and Bellshill in Lanarkshire to Corby in Northamptonshire. That was a move made in the interests of steel efficiency, and in many ways I am prepared to believe that it really was in the interests of steel efficiency. Nevertheless, it left behind in Lanarkshire two large villages derelict and abandoned, their populations idle
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and on the dole year after year. Even today, many years after that move, the largest pockets of unemployment in the West of Scotland are still to be found in these two villages, because of that aribtrary move by an arbitrary board of directors. It seems to me that the terms of the Amendment consist of words that are ill chosen.
We on this side of the House are vitally concerned about the economic life of the nation. We are desperately concerned about it, because we have not only a few directors to consider, but the workers of the industry as well.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: Has the hon. Gentleman got a monopoly in that?
Mr. McAllister: I have no monopoly of it, nor have my hon. Friends, but the Amendment suggests that the party opposite claim that monopoly for themselves. Did we hear any move from the Conservative Benches to consider something that has nothing to do with either private enterprise or Socialism, when Richard Thomas's was merged—very nice word—with Baldwin's? Was that vital to the economic life of the nation or was it merely affecting a little corner of Wales that does not matter very much to the Conservative Party?
Sir Arthur Salter: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? He asks what the critics of the Motion mean by "the economic life of the nation." May I suggest that the Debate on this Bill and this Motion has followed insistently the line of showing that, by the economic life of the nation, we mean the economic ability of the nation to earn so much by production and export as will enable us to import the raw materials, without which, as several Ministers have told us, there would be unemployment, not in patches, but to the extent of one or two millions?
Mr. McAllister: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his interruption and for his elementary lesson in economics. We think it means all that but the workers in the industry and the consumers in the country as well.
Mr. Hogg: On a point of Order. I am becoming more and more puzzled as to what kind of relevance this speech has either to the Amendment or the Motion. As I understand it, the question is whether

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there should be a time limit, and whether the argument contained in the Amendment is a good objection to that time limit. The only point upon which the hon. Gentleman has so far sought to hang his argument has been the phrase "the economic life of the nation." As I understand his argument—and I shall be corrected if I am wrong—he is not disputing that the steel industry is vital to the economic life of the nation, but he has used that phrase of the Amendment to introduce a long series of diatribes on the past history of some of my hon. Friends. May we have a Ruling as to how for these diatribes may be answered in the course of the Debate?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Bowles): I was not here when my predecessor gave his Ruling, but it is clear that the Amendment does widen the scope of the Debate considerably. I have been listening to the hon. Gentleman, and I think he is in Order, because he is trying to show that, in the past, when these mergers did take place, there had not been the same kind of concern. That is what I think he is aiming at, and it is the terms of the Amendment about which he is complaining. I believe the hon. Gentleman is in Order in doing so. I apologise for my voice; it is unfortunate.
Mr. Hogg: May I say, and I am sure I carry my hon. Friends with me, that we are sorry to hear that your sweet voice, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, is affected in this way, but may we have a Ruling on this point? If a series of attacks are to be made on one hon. Member after another, on a matter the relevance of which is not immediately apparent, how far shall we be allowed to answer them, and where is the Debate to take us if we do?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I see no objection to their being answered, if the hon. Members are not too wide.
Mr. McAllister: I would not have ventured into this Debate had not the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington and the hon. Member for Chippenham felt that it was very important to argue, on this timetable Motion, the fact that the affairs of 107 companies would have to be examined, and, in the case of the hon. Member for Chippenham, the affairs of 2,000 firms would have to be examined.
Mr. Eccles: I did not say that.
Mr. McAllister: The right hon. Gentleman who so kindly gave me this lesson in economics——
Sir A. Salter: I answered the question which the hon. Member asked.
Mr. McAllister: The right hon. Gentleman told us that in this context the words of the Amendment, "the economic life of the nation" simply mean the ability of iron and steel to make a contribution to the export trade and national recovery. It seems to me that that was more or less what the right hon. Gentleman did say, and that is precisely the point. Hon. Gentlemen opposite regard the economic life of the nation as merely something for the economists and statisticians, something that can be measured in terms of balance sheets and dividends. They regard the economic life of the nation as something that can be measured in terms of imports and exports and in terms of the national balance sheet, when obviously the economic life of the nation is much more than that. The economic life of the nation is the real life of the people of the nation. Was the economic life of the nation in a thoroughly healthy condition, in the view of the senior Burgess for Oxford University, when the steel workers in Lanarkshire or Jarrow were unemployed? Was it a healthy nation then? The senior Burgess is not very anxious to answer that question.
Sir A. Salter: On an appropriate occasion I should be delighted.
Mr. McAllister: We shall look for the appropriate occasion. I should have thought that as an hon. Member of this House, who has held office as the Minister of Labour——
Sir A. Salter: No.
Mr. McAllister: What was the job of the senior Burgess during the first world war? At any rate, it is fair to say that he had a good deal of connection with the Ministry of Labour.
Colonel Dower: No.
Mr. McAllister: The timetable is a matter that could be debated——
Mr. Oliver Stanley: Moreover, the hon. Member is supposed to speak on it.
Mr. McAllister: It was not debated either by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington or by the hon. Member for Chippenham. The time which is being lost under the terms of the—[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I wish to stop my speech for a moment to raise a point of Order. I distinctly heard the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) accuse me of being tight.
Mr. Hogg: No accusation was intended, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Bowles): If the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) made such a statement, he should withdraw it.
Mr. Hogg: I am sorry to say that I was not following the speech of the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. McAllister) as closely as I should, and I did happen to make an observation to one of my hon. Friends which the hon. Member for Rutherglen must have misunderstood.
Mr. McAllister: I refuse to accept that statement which has been made by the hon. Member for Oxford. May I say, in as Parliamentary language as I can, (a) that I am not tight, (b) that I never have been tight in my life, and (c) that the hon. Member for Oxford has not only committed a gross breach of the conduct of this House but has not the decency and the manhood to give a decent apology and a complete withdrawal?
Mr. Hogg: No one is saying that the hon. Gentleman was what he said. I was saying something to an hon. Friend be-bind me which the hon. Member for Rutherglen overheard, and he has taken it as an insult to himself, which I assure him was never intended. I certainly would not suggest that he was intoxicated in any way. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I cannot withdraw a statement which was never made.
Mr. Tolley: It was made. It was heard by me.
Mr. McAllister: I will not comment further on the incident. I merely wish to say that the hon. Member for Oxford has just said that he was not paying the
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attention to the Debate which he should have been paying. That is very often the case with the hon. Member for Oxford, and it has been the case with a group of hon. Members on the benches opposite during the course of the Debate, a Debate which they claim to be so vital to the interests of the nation. It is a piece of humbug and hypocrisy. The Conservative Party is not fighting for the vital economic welfare of the nation; it is fighting for the interests of the handful of people which it so well represents.
5.55 p.m.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Rutherglen (Mr. McAllister) has made great play with the words,
"vitally important to the economic life of the nation."
He is unwilling to sit at the feet of the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter). I suggest that he sits at the feet of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He would learn something from the Chancellor, if he is still willing to learn and not willing only to write and tell other people. He might sit and hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer and a few other responsible Ministers—I distinguish between them by using the word "responsible"—pointing out that the economic life of the nation which enters into the daily life of every person in the country is very largely dependent on things which the hon. Member appears to think are theoretical, such as the balance of trade, the export drive and the vital fact whether the steel industry really will work efficiently under nationalisation or not.
The vital economic life of the nation cannot be divided up into sentimental blocks. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are talking as if they were the sole representatives of the working men. I represent a working man's constituency as much as does the hon. Member for Rutherglen, and I resent very much that he should take up that attitude. If he thinks about it he will realise that the vital economic life of the nation depends very much on its being handled objectively and not merely as it is, as was plain from the opening speech today, in order to get party power and advantage in the method by which this is going to be bullocked through the two Houses.

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To come back to the opening speech by the Leader of the House, we had some pitiable patter like that of a second-class conjurer, while he was trying to get the nationalised rabbit out of the private enterprise hat without anybody seeing how it is done. It failed completely. It was perfectly obvious that the only planning—a favourite word of hon. Gentlemen opposite—that has been carried out as far as this Measure is concerned is not deep-thinking planning as to how the steel industry will work and how the taking over of its processes will work; the only planning has been how to get hold of it in the easiest and cheapest way, not at all because it is a basic industry. The words "basic industry" as used by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have lost their true meaning. What they mean by "basic" is not that it is vital to the economic life of the nation, as I have tried to explain, but that it is the key industry through which, in the easiest way and with one Parliamentary stroke, they can get into their hands the control of a vast number of other industries.
It was extraordinary to hear the Leader of the House explaining at the next moment, "This industry is really simple. Why should we make all this fuss about so much time for arguing it on the Floor of the House." He said that it was much simpler than the Transport Bill and, in a way, simpler than the Gas Bill. That is absolute nonsense, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it. The Minister of Supply in his opening speech on the Second Reading Debate said that the industry was one of the most complex that there was. He described how far it went and said that the Government via the industry would be interested in producing flower wire, tennis racquets and goodness knows what. This is no simple industry, and it is no simple task to take it over. It was therefore complete, utter and visible hypocrisy for the Leader of the House to come forward today and talk as he did. If anything could reveal to the House and the country what is being done here, it was that speech.
The whole perspective of this is wrong. I deal in perspective a good deal. My hobby is painting and studying perspective. To be discussing whether we are to have four days on the Report stage, 32 days or so upstairs and take one or
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two months on the Bill shows the Government's complete lack of grasp of the importance of the matter. If the Bill lasted for six months of steady work, with hon. Members making half a dozen speeches at practically every Sitting, it would not be a waste of the time of the House. The taking over of the most complex industry, the most delicately balanced industry and the industry most easily capable of being knocked off that balance is a matter to which this House and all hon. Members, if they were seriously interested in the economic life of the nation as it affects the man in the street, would be quite willing to devote much more time; they should not be willing to leave to 50 hon. Members, however well selected they might be, to devote to it 32 or 40 Sittings.
This use of the Guillotine is the clearest possible proof of the intentions of the Government. Here are the advocates of "new machinery." The only machinery they have brought in is on the 1787 pattern of the Guillotine, without even any atomic energy to make it work. They should take another model. The last effort that was made by any Government to go into the steel business, as His Majesty's Government are doing at the present moment, was made by the German Government. I suggest that Ministers should take as their model Marshal Goering. I am not saying that they are like the little Marshal. They have neither the chest for the medals nor the medals for the chest. I do say, however, that the last attempt to deprive private enterprise of steel was made in Germany, and the Government are approaching close to that totalitarian method. All the best of Parliamentary procedure is being negatived by their abuse of an illusory and elusive majority.
We heard a lot of talk to the effect that the right hon. Gentleman's bias during the Committee stage would be entirely in favour of the Opposition, that he would lean over backwards and give the Opposition every opportunity to put forward their point of view. Yet in the next sentence he was scolding and chiding us for obstruction, and trying to split hairs as to what was good and what was bad obstruction. We know that pseudo fairness which he produces on all these occasions—"the Opposition are perfectly entitled"—"they are quite right"—"it

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is in the tradition of this House"—but behind that we all recognise his completely inflexible will to use his majority as long as he has it, to get every possible Measure, irrespective of whether it is discussed or not, through in time for the next Election.
What he was making today was an election speech and nothing else, but the great harm he has done is, I believe, unobserved by him and much deeper than he thinks. During the period between now and 1950 it is quite obvious that one of the most important things for the economic life of this country is that some sort of viable method should be found between the 107 companies to be taken over in the steel industry and the Government as to how things are to be carried on. The economic life of the nation depends considerably on the working efforts of those under sentence of death or dispossession, and economic disaster which will follow from this if it goes wrong, because the national effort in steel continues from day to day and must do so.
Was there ever anything more unwise than for the right hon. Gentleman today to show so clearly behind what he said what the intention was? There was the intention on every possible occasion to use this power, to use this majority, in as unfair a way as possible towards the industry. What is more appalling still, there was no single appearance of planning as to how things were to be done. In all this Bill there is practically nothing said as to how the steel industry is to work or be improved. It all depends on the good will of people in the steel industry who have produced plans—which is more than the Government have done. Does the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply, who is sitting there now, really think that a good service was done to the economic life of the nation over the next 18 months by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman? I do not think so at all. I think it did the utmost harm.
The Minister of Supply knows from his business experience that the interrelationship of directors of operating companies and holding companies, both here and overseas, is one of the most delicately balanced things. He knows that one cannot put down on paper how a correct atmosphere is to be created. He knows equally well without putting
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it down on paper, that one can destroy that atmosphere if one party—the Government in this case—show all too clearly, exactly what their line will really be, and exactly how unobjective they are as to the real working of the steel industry.
Now we come to the question which will take a lot of time, and to which I fear not sufficient time will be devoted—that is, compensation. Again, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply knows perfectly well from his great experience in markets—as an ex-metal tycoon he has a close experience of this—that the talk of a free market between willing buyer and willing seller as it is explained there is perfect nonsense. If somebody has an order to buy 50,000 tons of tin, it is not the same thing as if he had an order to buy 5 tons of tin. If you were buying for control in the metal market in the old days, it was a totally different business from the daily transactions between the producer and the seller. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the argument put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and others on the question of a fair price being represented by Stock Exchange prices was completely false. Better than anybody else on the Government Front Bench he is aware that is so, and he, as the Minister in charge of the Bill, should have informed his colleagues as to where the fallacy lies on which they base their policy.
I want to close on this note. There is no doubt that those hon. Members who will not be on the Committee—and they are many—will, to their constituents' regret, be deprived of the opportunity of discussing a Bill which it is difficult at present to bring home to the public but which will affect them so closely even in their daily life—quite contrary to what the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. McAllister) indicated. Unless the Government now reconsider their timetable and their method they are going against that spirit of Parliamentary democracy which they preach so freely and practice in such limited fashion. There is no doubt that for the consideration of a Bill of this kind to be truncated, both in time and in the method in which it is to be discussed, is a considerable sin against the spirit of democracy.

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I want to say as emphatically as I can that although the Government have the power to get away with this rather mean and shabby method of avoiding full discussion of this Measure, it will not be to their advantage. Fortunately, in the people of this country there is a curious kind of alchemy, not based on reason or anything else, which transmutes into knowledge, a feeling that a thing is not being done in the proper way. This Bill is not being done in the proper way; that will be known, and right hon. Gentlemen opposite will live to regret it.
6.8 p.m.
Mr. James Hudson: The hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher) has been making a claim for more time to discuss the compensation Clauses. I might have some sympathy with him on that point because one could find time to discuss the compensation Clauses in a very different way from that desired by the hon. Member. I am thoroughly dissatisfied that the owners of steel should get so much compensation as is proposed. If time were allowed, I could submit a good many proposals that would deal with this matter more effectively—[Interruption.] Something seems to be troubling hon. Members opposite just now.
Mr. Nigel Birch: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, could the window just above us be closed? It is bitterly cold.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Yes, it is being closed.
Mr. Hudson: I am glad that the hon. Member for Bury is feeling the draught, perhaps from what I have to say to him—I do not wish him to feel it in any other way. There is a case, I submit, for putting forward Amendments dealing with compensation when this Bill comes to be discussed in Committee from my point of view rather than from his point of view; but I know that in any unregulated arrangement regarding the Debates in Committee upstairs there will be very little opportunity for me to give any expression to my point of view, and that it is better, for a fair examination of the varying views—and not merely the views of the Opposition—that the sort of division of time contemplated in the Motion before us should be put into effect.
Colonel Dower: I am trying to follow the hon. Member's argument. Is he say-
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ing that if more time is given to the Bill in Committee upstairs, he will have less opportunity to bring forward the Amendments which he is certainly justified in bringing forward?
Mr. Hudson: I said there is a need for the regulation of time upstairs in the discussion of each of the important Clauses of the Measure and that, if it is regulated, our points of view can find expression. Amendments will get a better chance of selection in a regulated period which is given to the discussion of a particular Clause. They would have a better chance of selection than is the case now, when hon. Members may go to infinite lengths discussing Amendments which are deliberately put down to give the greatest possible weight to their discussions. I should be helped in the expression of my point of view, upon compensation and other matters, if an arrangement could be made to allot the total length of time for each important part of the Bill. To emphasise that, I say that it is our ordinary Parliamentary procedure.
It is all very well talking about the "arbitrary curtailment" which is referred to in the Amendment moved by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Of course, everybody is arbitrarily curtailed who has prepared for this House a speech which he never gets a chance to deliver. Arrangements are made behind Mr. Speaker's Chair about the timing of Debates and on important Debates hon. Members come here—as I did on the Second Reading of the Steel Bill—with a remarkable oration in readiness, which finds its way into the wastepaper basket.
Mr. Stanley: The hon. Gentleman is very wasteful in doing that. Cannot he utilise his speech for the Second Reading of the Bill dealing with licensed premises?
Mr. Hudson: If, when the Licensing Bill is dealt with, I suffer in the same sort of way as I did on the Steel Bill, I shall be arbitrarily curtailed. That is my argument. I hope, however, that when we do come to the Licensing Bill such a dreadful fate may not befall me. Hon Members must realise that in a reasonable democratic body like this House of Commons we must arrange and time our Debates; we must accept loss of opportunity, the best of us and the worst of us, in order to obtain for Parliament

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an opportunity for democratic discussion which the people expect of us.
The hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles), who dwelt so much upon the nationalisation of coal, would have better employed his time had he dealt with what happened on the Gas Act, which today is the classic issue to be faced not only by Members of this House but by the general public. We are not allowed in this House to refer to anything which happened during the passage of the Gas Act as an unwarranted use of time—any suggestion to that effect would be ruled out of Order—but everybody in the country knows that hon. Members were kept up all night over long periods; that Chairmen were rendered almost helpless by the long hours they had to sit in endeavouring to control the discussions; that, after the long periods necessary to get the Bill through, Ministers were hardly capable of following the detailed discussions which were then indulged in. We cannot sit for hours and hours under an unregulated system and expect by that process to effect a reasonable examination of either difficult or easy Clauses of any Bill which comes before Parliament.
Mr. Jennings: Is it not notorious that during the passage of the Gas Act, supporters of the Government were absolutely mute during the whole of the discussions and never spoke at all?
Mr. Hudson: Exactly. If we could have a regulation of time, we should not be mute because—[Interruption.] Some hon. Members seem to think that I am giving away the secret. It is not my business to assist an Opposition bent upon destroying democratic opportunity merely by talking at length. It is not my business to help them in that process. I never would, either in this House or in a Committee engage in such a method—at any rate as long as there are reasonable Bills like those now before us to be dealt with.
What will happen under the Motion before us is that we shall time-out the important Clauses in the Bill. Hon. Members on both sides will make up their minds on the best use that can be made of the time available. We shall make our discussions more interesting and more understandable to the general public, who cannot be expected to read the non-
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sense that is talked all through the long hours of the night. We shall bring the Debates down to their proper level and give the people an opportunity of following what their representatives are doing and saying. Ultimately we shall give the country as a whole the opportunity to judge for itself the Measures before us.
The Amendment does not propose to do any of these things. It simply rules out any arrangement of time. It proposes a return to the Gas Act methods and does so at a time when the whole country is looking to this House to make the best use of the democratic organisation which we here represent. The Government, I am quite certain, is wise in its Motion. I support it from the point of view of hon. Members opposite and myself, especially as far as the compensation Clauses are concerned. Out of this division of time we shall get the very best opportunities of discussing all the main issues which the Bill presents.
6.18 p.m.
Mr. I. J. Pitman: The main point which the Government are overlooking is that anybody can have tight boots. We can look at tight boots in two different ways. Either you can say your feet are too big for your shoes, or you can say your shoes are too small for your feet. As for the Gas Bill, and so far as the time limit for the Steel Bill is concerned, it is a case of the shoes being too small for the feet. The only reason why we sat all night at all on the Gas Bill was that the time allotted by the Government was insufficient for the purpose of discussing the Bill. It was not that the time taken was too much. It was exactly the same in the Transport and the Town and Country Planning Bills. In both cases the shoes provided were quite inadequate for the feet so that it was not possible to get the job done properly. I urge hon. Members opposite not to make the assumption that because they have provided too small shoes for the purpose, there is obstruction. I speak genuinely in this respect. One only has to read the HANSARD reports of the Gas Committee to see that the Debates were of a very high standard throughout.
The hon. Member for West Ealing (Mr. J. Hudson) surely let the cat out of the bag when he said that he hopes to get the time-table for this Bill so that Members on the Government side will take up the whole of the time by dis-

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cussing the Bill to the maximum extent possible.
Mr. J. Hudson: The hon. Gentleman must not misquote me. I did not say anything at all about hon. Members on this side taking up the whole of the time. I said that we shall be able to share the time in discussing the important subjects with which the Bill is concerned.
Mr. Pitman: I had no desire to misquote the hon. Gentleman, but it seems to me that he has made a most important and damaging contribution. What he has said amounts to this: that when the time is unlimited the Government supporters are going to keep their mouths shut, whereas when the time is restricted, they are going to insist on having at least 50 per cent. of the time to discuss the Bill. It seems to me that on that issue alone, the hon. Gentleman has disclosed the fundamental unfairness of the Government's proposition.
6.23 p.m.
Mr. Proctor: The problem before the House this evening is whether there is ample time and opportunity to state the case against this Bill.
Mr. Stanley: Or for the Bill.
Mr. Proctor: I am saying that the main case of the Opposition is that they have not ample time to state the case against the Bill. I submit that the time table which is proposed by the Government will provide ample time for a full discussion of every relevant point. Until 17th March we shall be discussing the matter in Committee. Anyone who wishes to state the case either for or against the Bill will have ample opportunity to do so. Then there are four days devoted to the Report stage and the Third Reading. The country will be able to understand from the speeches which will be delivered from both sides the problem which confronts the nation, and we shall all be able to make a proper decision.
In addition, this Bill will be sent to another place, and only the Opposition with their prior knowledge of what may happen in another place, know how many times this Bill will come back to us for further discussion. Democratic institutions are being assailed throughout the world; occasionally it is from the Right and occasionally from the Left.
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What has happened in this country up to the present time since this Government has been in power is an attempt to prevent this democratic institution from functioning properly. The only answer which the Government can give is to timetable this Bill and provide a fair opportunity for discussion.
Mr. Dodds-Parker: That is undemocratic practice; does not the hon. Gentleman understand?
Mr. Proctor: There is nothing undemocratic in this proposal. To give a person time to state his case is not undemocratic. To allow him to waste his time and the country's time by repeating himself over and over again, is not good for democratic institutions.
Every hon. Member on this side of the House, and on the back benches especially, will agree with me when I say that our one failure as a Government is that we have not had adequate opportunity to state the case from this side. I make no revelation when I say that the Government side have deliberately refrained from speaking on many occasions because we knew the tactics of the Opposition were to waste time by speaking without any limits and thus delay legislation. To allow a one-sided case to be presented to the country is not a fair way of doing business. We on the Government side say that the time shall be properly shared for stating the case both for and against the Bill.
I served on the Transport Committee, and although the Chairman of that Committee said this afternoon that there was no obstruction, I myself say there certainly was a very grave delay in dealing with matters until the Guillotine was applied.
Colonel Dower: I was on that Committee. I have never heard it suggested before today that there was deliberate obstruction on that Committee. I have every right to ask the hon. Gentleman to state the instance to which he refers.
Mr. Proctor: The hon. and gallant Member has evidently not followed the proceedings of the House as assiduously as he ought to have done. I made this charge when we were discussing this matter on the Floor of the House before, and I instanced cases of speeches which were repeated. I referred to the hon. and

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gallant Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite) who regaled us with the story of what happened at a Primrose League meeting in a public house owned by a railway company. If that had anything to do with the serious business of legislation, then I do not know what obstruction is.
Mr. Ivor Thomas: On a point of Order. Is not the hon. Member casting a reflection on the Chairman of the Committee upstairs by suggesting that he permitted obstruction?
Mr. Proctor: I am casting no reflection. This is a matter of opinion. It may be that the hon. Member would think that to delay this Bill for a couple of years would not be obstruction, but it would be quite a different opinion from that which he held a few weeks ago. I noticed that after the Guillotine procedure was agreed to in the Transport Committee, we had on certain occasions long and tedious discussions.
There were a number of Clauses of the Transport Bill which were never discussed at all by the Committee. It was very good propaganda in the country for the Tory Party to be able to say that. I noticed that there was one subject they were very careful to discuss, however, and that was everything with reference to compensation. I predict that, whatever is left out of the long discussions on the Steel Bill, all the matters relevant to compensation will be fully discussed in the Committee stage and at every other stage.
Lord John Hope: Does the hon. Member mean that in his opinion, matters connected with compensation should not be fully discussed in the Committee?
Mr. Proctor: Not at all. I welcome the fullest means of proper discussion on every point, but I suggest that it is within the bounds of an Opposition so to regulate matters that, even under the Guillotine, certain things are discussed and certain things are not discussed. I make the prediction, and we shall see whether I am a good prophet or not, that the Clauses about compensation will be fully discussed.
The right hon. Gentleman who led for the Opposition referred to this Bill as of
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more importance than any other Bill which has come before this House. He said it was more important than the Transport Bill, referring to the fact that 107 steel firms are being taken over under this Bill. I suggest that under this Bill there is less interference with the structure of the industry and with its management and control than there was under the Transport Bill with the transport industry. Let us remember that while there are 107 steel firms affected by this Bill, there were four great railway companies affected by the Transport Bill, representing almost the biggest concentration of capital in this country. Certainly there was one of the biggest firms in the whole of the world—the London, Midland and Scottish Railway Company. What about the hundreds of local road transport firms? Did they count for nothing in the estimation of the right hon. Gentleman, since he so lightly referred to that industry as of less importance than the steel industry?
I submit that this Bill is of no greater importance than, but is of equal importance with those Bills which have gone before and that this is a proper and clear method of doing our business. I welcome it because it means that anyone who wishes to engage in discussions on this problem can understand what is the procedure and can take advantage of the proper opportunities which the Government are giving us in the procedure they have placed before us.
6.33 p.m.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, in the speech with which he opened this Debate, referred to my constituency in terms, I thought, of scorn. I should like to remind the House that the motto of Oxford City is:
"Strong is the truth and it shall prevail."
If I might venture to define the attitude of Oxford City to this Motion it is that, despite its strength, truth cannot prevail without adequate discussion. I must say I wished the right hon. Gentleman could have had a little more of the spirit of that motto imbued in his mind when he moved this Motion. I beg hon. Members opposite to believe that we on this side of the House who are opposed to the Guillotine Measures that have been proposed from time to time, and in particular to this one, are sincerely convinced that in proposing them the Government

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are murdering Parliamentary democracy and that those who support the Government are either their accomplices or their dupes. I must venture to point out some reasons why we hold that view.
So far as I am concerned, this is not a new view. Hon. Members will perhaps recollect that the very first speech I have delivered in this Parliament, in August, 1945, was a speech on the subject of Parliamentary procedure. On that occasion I ventured to say to the House that if ever there came a time—and I hoped there would not—when the Government of the day were able to say to the Opposition, "We are going to get our Measure, whatever you say, by a particular day, in accordance with a particular timetable," we should then have passed over the line which divides Parliamentary democracy from a dictatorship.
All the time since then we have been approaching closer and closer to this point until today, before there has been any discussion, apart from the Second Reading Debate, we are asked to send a Bill upstairs with a timetable attached so that the Government are able to say in advance, "Whatever you do and whatever you say, we are going to get our Bill through" by a particular date. On that previous occasion I ventured to point out, and I wish, with permission of the House, to point out again now, the reasons which led me to make that observation. First, we have to face the realities of modern Parliamentary democracy. They are these: the right to vote in the way which our consciences dictate is no longer a guarantee of freedom, because under Parliamentary conditions the party system normally operates in such a way that the result of every vote is a foregone conclusion—400 minus 200 equals 200. Therefore, the Government need never give in because they are afraid of the right of Members to vote in accordance with their consciences.
I added on that occasion, and again I remind hon. Members today, that neither is the right of free speech in this Chamber an adequate guarantee of a free democracy. I told them then, and I tell them again now, what will be the position if the Government once know they are going to get their business through by a particular time. The position will be this. You can say what you like and call them any names you like, you can
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indulge in whatever criticism you like, you may defeat their arguments to whatever extent you like and at the end they will be perfectly happy and say, after the Division, "Very nice speech old boy," but they will have got their Business just as much as if you had not spoken at all.
Under modern Parliamentary conditions, under our actual working constitution, there is one sanction of freedom in this House and one sanction alone. That is the fact that the Government know that a want of reason on their part, a want of desire to give in to argument, a want of willingness to pay attention to other peoples' convictions and feelings, will, in fact, lead to greater difficulties in the passage of their own Business. That is the only thing which keeps this House from being a dictatorship and that is the thing which the Government are attacking in this Motion this evening.
It is because they are attacking the very citadel of freedom in our remaining institutions that we oppose the Motion bitterly; and we oppose it bitterly in the name of democracy. We do not believe that this House will be a free democratic assembly when and if this Motion is passed. It matters absolutely nothing that the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council should quote a number of even partial precedents for what he proposes to do, because the fact of the matter is that this is not merely a party question. Government after Government, of different party complexions, come to that Box, one party, then another, exulting in their Parliamentary majority.
Each party, when it attains that position, believes, I have no doubt sincerely, that it will stay there for ever, and that the people who are in the minority will never get a chance again. So each time the Government goes forward with fresh and ever fresh encroachments upon the right of the minority to govern the time of our Parliamentary proceedings. I am not accusing this Government of being the first, of taking the first step, in these proceedings. On the contrary, any student of our Parliamentary procedure will realise that what I am describing is something which has been going on for over a hundred years. But we are approaching, as I ventured to remind the House before, very close to the line which divides a free Parlia-

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ment from a Reichstag. This Parliament, although it did not take the first, is beginning to take the last of the decisive steps which are bringing us over the line. It is for that reason that we oppose this thing with such force and bitterness today.
There are some people, and some Members in this House, who, at any rate in the view of those of us who sit on these benches, have not a clue as to what democracy means. One of them is an hon. Gentleman, for whom I have the greatest personal admiration, the hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Proctor), of whom I made the same allegation when he spoke before on the Motion on the Transport Bill. On these occasions there are always hon. Members to be found opposite who advance the same sort of argument, which is, "We have a mandate for what we propose in this Bill"—or whatever it may be that is under discussion—"because it was contained in our Election programme. You, the Opposition, although we will of our good nature allow you to state your case, are to have no effect whatever upon our decision to do it. No amount of reason that you may bring to bear will make any difference to us."
In our view that is not democracy, for reasons which we believe to be good, sound Parliamentary reasons. In the first place, we would venture to remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that whatever else their mandate might allow them to do, it was not a mandate to destroy the fundamental freedom of our Parliamentary institutions. Their mandate to nationalise the steel industry, or whatever industry might be under discussion, was a mandate to propose to this House of Commons, in accordance with existing usage, Measures for discussion in this House. Our view of Parliamentary institutions is that discussions of this House should be real discussions and not sham discussions. If we should, by the exercise of reason and argument, prevail upon some mind not utterly closed on the benches opposite to see that we and not they happen to be right, they should not, at any rate in advance, declare their inability to accept reasons of that kind.
We think, therefore, that the doctrine of mandate does not support the view which hon. Members opposite seek to
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put upon it. Moreover, in the nature of a Measure of this kind, it was utterly impossible for the people of this country, in the heated weeks of a General Election, to have known either the details or even the broad principles of the schemes of nationalisation which were put before them. They could not have known the details or the principles of the Government's Measure for the nationalisation of coal, but of the principles of this nationalisation Measure they could have known still less, since we well know that they were arrived at as a result of some sort of internal compromise in comparatively recent months. And to be told, as we are now told, that the Government, although they will graciously allow us to exercise the comparatively useless function of speaking, are not going to allow us to use the only weapon worth using, of seeking to impose even to a small extent a delay, is, in my submission, a gross violation of the real principles of Parliamentary government.
If we do believe in government by discussion, then I submit that Motions of this kind must be utterly repulsive, unless they are actually necessitated by the positive misconduct of some section of the House. They must always be repulsive for the very simple reason that whenever they have been introduced, whether by Liberal, Conservative or Socialist Governments, they have always resulted in a large proportion of the Measure to which they were applied going through this House undiscussed altogether. I am utterly unimpressed by the naive argument from the benches opposite that we on these benches are always to blame for any prolongation of discussion. Even if it were true, I should regard the argument as irrelevant.
If we really believe in government by discussion, and not government by the overriding dominance of force and power, we should be prepared to spend a little time in our evenings, and even a long time, to see that each one of the Measures which we propose and pass through this House should be fully discussed in each one of its sections and parts. I would say to hon. Members opposite that even if there is that degree of urgency which they claim for the Measures they put forward, it would be better for the country, better for Socialism, better for the Government, that they should pass two or three nationalisation Measures

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properly discussed than six of which only half had ever been discussed by this House as a representative Chamber.
I do not believe that a want of discussion is, in the long run, really in the interests either of the people or the party opposite. They have complained from time to time that people will ask them, "Why did you not pass all the Measures in your Election programme?" The people of this country would be more generous to hon. Members opposite if, at the end of their full Parliamentary time, they came to their constituents and said, "Yes, it is true that we passed only three instead of the six Measures which we promised; but we failed to pass the balance out of our tenderness and regard for your free Parliamentary institutions. We failed to do it because we were anxious that full discussion should be given to every Bill that came before the House. We ask your pardon for putting off until the next programme the balance of what we set out to do." I cannot but think that the people would be generous to such a Government, unless for some other reason that Government had lost their confidence.
There is something which is to me almost repulsively naïve about the argument suggested from the benches opposite that these Motions are either necessitated or justified by Opposition obstruction. I have tried to take an intelligent interest in public life since 1922, when I was hardly mature. During that time, I have known a series of Governments and a series of Oppositions. So far as my researches go into the Governments and Oppositions which preceded these, both of those which I have known and those of which I have read, this one proposition can be said to be universal. There never has been a Government or a Parliamentary majority in this country which has not accused its contemporary Opposition of obstruction.
There never has been a Parliamentary majority which has not thought that the arguments of the contemporary Opposition had far better not have been presented at all. It may have been that each successive Government was always right. It may have been that they were sometimes right. But more probably the House may think, on more philosophical reflection, that the case is that it is in the nature of any Opposition to anger
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the Government, and if it does not anger the Government and impress it with its mischievousness, irresponsibility and obstruction, it is not fulfilling its proper part as an Opposition. I venture to say that the fact is that government by discussion really consists in and involves a certain measure of delay which, of its very nature, must be antipathetic to those in the majority who, if the matter were brought to an immediate vote without discussion, could have their way more completely.
It is impossible to discuss Measures of first-class importance except at very considerable length which must necessarily annoy and antagonise those who could get them through very much more easily by the exercise of a majority without discussion. But I must add that if in fact this House is to embark upon a policy which I have always opposed—namely, the sending of Bills up to a Standing Committee instead of dealing with them on the Floor of the House—it becomes all the more important not to attach to them a timetable of this kind and all the more important that if a timetable of this kind is to be attached to the Committee stage, the discussion on the Report stage should be of very much greater length than has hitherto been contemplated or considered usual.
With respect, I say that it is no argument to suggest, as was suggested in an intervention during the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), that Members of a Standing Committee have a particular obligation whereas Members of the House have only a general obligation to attend Debates. The fact is that when discussion takes place on the Floor of the House those who are most capable of playing a full part in them, from every quarter of the House, play their part. It may well be that in matters of technical detail very large numbers of Members do not feel obliged to attend or to take part. It still remains the case that when a discussion takes place on the Floor of the House, those who take part in it represent the very best brains and qualifications which this House as a whole can produce. When the discussion takes place in a Standing Committee upstairs all we have to go upon are the lucubrations of 50 Members, selected no doubt as well as possible, but certainly not

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representative of the best brains of the House, on the matter to be discussed.
That leads me to one other reflection. If we are to have government by discussion, which I take it is the basis and object of Parliamentary democracy, discussion cannot be planned. How often have we known Debates take place in which it was utterly impossible to foretell whether this or that particular point would be the point which would interest hon. Members at the time? Sometimes things which one considers of the very greatest importance are passed by with a few sentences and no one seems to object. Sometimes the Debate centres around some relatively small point. I submit to the House that very often it is none the less valuable for that. Discussion and reason—as I think it was Plato said—take us along like the wind, and, to quote from another source, the wind bloweth where it listeth.
It is the wind of discussion which makes our institutions free. It is the free wind of discussion which is being interrupted and destroyed by Motions of this kind. It is the deliberate attempt to seek to prevent the free play of Debate to which we object. We believe that hon. Members opposite, when the time comes—as it surely will—when their exultant majority which now sits on the Benches opposite, depleted in numbers, is relegated to the Opposition Benches, will bitterly regret the day when the boy from Stockwell Road School led them up the garden path.
6.55 p.m.
Mr. Maclay: I have two excuses for intervening in this Debate. One is because I am the representative Liberal here this afternoon. While I am on that topic, perhaps I ought to try to help the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) in a calculation they were worrying about. There was a certain argument as to how the votes cast for the Independent Liberals at the last Election should be counted in assessing the proper strength of the country behind the Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bills. It is clear what has happened. One of the great misfortunes of Liberalism throughout the world is that for
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years it has been subject to surprising heresies. At the time of the last General Election there was a heresy in the mind of a certain number of Liberals. Fortunately, on the important issue of the Iron and Steel Bill some of them have come back to orthodoxy.
I have always been convinced that there are a surprising number of people in this House who should be sitting on this Bench with us and who have not yet realised that. I suggest that they ought to face the facts. Those remarks may not be relevant to the immediate issue, but they were necessary to clear up what appeared to be an earlier misunderstanding.
The hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Proctor) early in his speech made what I thought was a most interesting statement which I believe explains the line which he took in the latter part of his speech. He said that in his opinion ample time was provided by the timetable for people to state their views for and against the Bill. That might be true in the case of the Second or Third Reading of the Bill but surely the hon. Gentleman and I have come here not just to state our views for and against different proposals. We have come here to try to construct sound legislation, whether we are supporters of the Government or Members of the Opposition. For this purpose the Guillotine procedure is disastrous. If this was purely a question of expressing our views for or against there might be a lot in what the hon. Gentleman said, but we are trying to produce decent legislation. I ask the hon. Member for Eccles, who dwelt at length on what happened in the Transport Bill Committee, to cast his mind back. He made a definite charge of obstruction. I will not argue whether or not that is in Order. I suggest to him that part of the reason why he made that charge and why he said that he had to listen to long, boring speeches was that because of the Guillotine, he himself was prevented from contributing very much to those Debates.
Sir A. Salter: In answer to a definite challenge by myself and, I think, other hon. Members, the Minister of Transport said that he did not charge obstruction.
Mr. Maclay: I was coming to that point. I am very glad of the intervention. This is the reason why the hon. Member for Eccles, the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr.

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Hale) and others thought there was obstruction. They sat there day after day. Occasionally they made a slight gesture as if they wished to speak, and a firm, kindly but stern eye was cast upon them from the Front Bench.
Mr. Leslie Hale: This is the first time, I have been accused of undue silence in this House. I hope the hon. Gentleman will pass on the information to the Government Whips, though in point of fact it is not correct. I spoke rather a lot on that occasion.
Mr. Maclay: It is not the first time that the hon. Member has been accused of silence in this House. When we discussed a similar procedure to this in the case of the Transport Bill I accused him of being an "as yet unravished bride of quietness." I assure the hon. Member for Eccles that if he had happened to use his brain as hard as we had to on the Opposition side of that Committee in constructive criticism, he would not have felt bored. I sat right through every one of the 31 Sittings. I was involved personally in moving and supporting a number of Amendments. It was consistently hard work from beginning to end. As the right hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) said, at the end of the day there was a question of whether there had been obstruction. No responsible Member of the Committee ever said that there had been obstruction. It is important to have that made clear.
Mr. Proctor: I agree that that challenge was made and that no one on the Government Front Bench took it up. The Government were obviously in favour of appeasement with the Opposition. I was giving instances of what I considered to be obstruction. The senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) said on the Second Reading that there would be obstruction in Committee stage and he promised it again for a further stage.
Sir A. Salter: I asked the Minister of Transport about it at the time, as he sat on that Front Bench, and he said quite clearly that he did not allege obstruction.
Mr. Maclay: Perhaps I might resume my speech, although I welcome the interruptions. It is my belief that the Transport Bill Committee is perhaps a classic
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case which we ought to consider in relation to this Motion. Whatever our views may be about one or two remarks that might have been cut out—I am afraid that I myself may have been guilty, because I cannot condense my sentences as well as I should—it was, on the whole, an extremely good and co-operative committee. There was good, hard work done, I think hon. Members opposite will agree with that. It did however become clear that when the Business Committee tried to squeeze things into a timetable and to use the Guillotine procedure, it was utterly impossible, no matter how intelligent the Members and how much good will they exercised, to achieve a satisfactory result. It simply is not possible to estimate in advance what time will be necessary for the discussion of various Clauses, and, as a matter of fact, in the Transport Bill one will find serious gaps in the discussion of absolutely essential issues.
I am sorry to concentrate upon the hon. Member for Eccles, but he was talking with the authority of a Member of that Transport Committee. I also sat upon it. He made the charge that the Opposition would certainly see to it that certain things like the question of compensation would be fully discussed. He must understand that the timetable was, substantially, worked out by his own side. It was they who allocated the time. What the hon. Member for Eccles spoke of was almost bound to happen. It was his own people who recognised that compensation must be discussed properly. If there is a timetable, and there is an important Clause at the beginning of the timetable, it will obviously get full discussion. His argument does not stand up to analysis. I agree that anybody who has to remain relatively silent for that time is bound to get bored, and for that reason the hon. Member for Eccles has my entire sympathy, especially as I had to do a certain amount of boring. I am glad that there is one point on which hon. Members opposite agree with me.
This is another point which we must set clear. The hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. Mellish) said earlier today—I do not think he was on the Committee—that in the earlier stages of the Transport Committee we were working at the rate of one Clause per day. That is a thing which someone not on the Com-

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mittee or not studying the proceedings carefully might reasonably say, but there is a very definite explanation for it. It is that the earlier Clauses of the Bill were key Clauses and we could not avoid having a very long discussion of them.
I would go further in a personal explanation. I had on the Amendment paper my record number of Amendments for this Parliament I think, something like 25, in my name and the names of my hon. Friends. By taking the discussion upon a group of about 15 Amendments on Clause 2 further discussion upon the later ones was avoided. When I rose to ask the Chairman whether I might do that, I made it clear that I could not do it in five minutes, and must take time to explain how the structure of the Amendments built up a certain case. Having done that, I did not take an excessive time in the Committee at that stage, but the time was much longer than I would have taken upon one single Amendment. It all arose upon an early Clause. The Government did not accept our Amendments in detail, but by the time the Bill went to another place the relevant Clauses of the Bill were completely altered and the Bill vastly improved. The fact that we have these comments to make about a Committee which did function well definitely proves, I submit, that the Guillotine procedure cannot work satisfactorily.
Two further things I want to say before I sit down. I recognise that Parliament simply must function, and that there is an enormous amount of business to be put through. Any Government would be faced with exactly this problem, no matter who they were. Some device must be found for getting the business through. I agree profoundly with the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) that the first thing to learn from these matters is that no Government should try to push through too many Bills in one Parliament. That can be said to be a controversial statement, but I do not think it is. Any sensible person must agree that if we try to push through too many Bills we cannot get adequate discussion on them. We are faced with this problem: we want to have proper discussion, and we must nevertheless keep things going through the House of Commons? What can we do?
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Having sat on that Committee and having thought a great deal about the matter, as one was bound to do after having gone through an experience of that kind, I have come to the conclusion—and I hope that someone will explain why this conclusion is not a practical one—that in Standing Committee it should be accepted that the Closure can be used with much greater freedom. We should need to have a great deal of confidence in the Chairman, but the Chairmen of Committees, no matter from which party they come, always seem to have a surprising sense of what is fair and when a Member is getting out of Order. I should have thought that the only way of getting a reasonable discussion and allowing proper time for each Clause was to have a sensible use of the Closure. No doubt the Opposition of the day would give loud cries of "Gag, gag," and sometimes also I have thought that the Closure was moved a little too quickly when I wanted to make a speech. But, normally, the House knows pretty well that the Closure has been fairly applied, without reflecting in any way upon the occupant of the Chair.
I should think that a possible solution of this very difficult problem is to be found in trying to get the principle accepted that the Closure could be moved with a little more freedom in Standing Committee than on the Floor of the House. I am not an expert in procedure and I only put forward my suggestion as I hope a sensible person who recognises that a difficult problem is involved. I hope that somebody will answer my suggestion and say if it is not a practical solution.
7.8 p.m.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The Lord President of the Council, in a speech which I thought was otherwise specious and shallow in character and unworthy of a very considerable occasion, devoted one passage to the subject of history. I was very pleased to note that, because in general it is a healthy sign. It is only by going back into history that the Labour Party will slow themselves up and refrain from going over the Gadarene precipice. It is, after all, the gangster, the assassin and the murderer who slips back the safety catch of his revolver and says at the same time, "all history begins with me."

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I was delighted that the Lord President should dwell for some time upon 1887, when there was first recourse to the Parliamentary Guillotine. It was just about that time that the British Empire attained its supremacy and that the Eastern Crown was put upon the head of Queen Victoria. It was not much later that the terms of trade began to move against us. They have never recovered. It was not much later that we reached maximum productivity in coal and cotton. It was not much later that the Labour Party came to birth. We can quite easily associate our decline as a world Power and our present economic misfortunes both with the Leftist tendencies in Governments and the increasing use made by them all of the Guillotine.
Some attempt has been made on the other side of the House to say that this is not a major Bill. Of course, it is by far the most important Bill that the Government have presented to the country since they were returned to power, and it is quite clear that hundreds of Amendments are going to be moved against it. My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) was quite right in pointing out the accumulated experience in industry which has taken place today as a result of nationalisation. We have no knowledge yet—no doubt they will be considerable—of the number of Amendments that individual companies will push forward through their Parliamentary agents and associations, all of whom have been stimulated by a study of HANSARD over the last few years and have seen where certain Amendments came to grief or were successful. We have to reckon with the whole build-up of nationalisation; both with the inherent and intrinsic importance of steel itself, and with the tremendous aggregation of knowledge on the part of technicians, administrators, agents, and counsel on nationalisation as a species of legislation.
The Steel Bill has 58 Clauses and eight Schedules and the Lord President promised us a miserable 35 days for our discussions. Immense principles are involved in this Bill, as have been pointed out by a number of my hon. Friends. Take Clause 1 alone. First there is the question whether there should be a corporation at all, then, if there is to be a
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corporation, the size it should be, the method of the appointment of the members of the corporation, the character and experience of the individuals who are to compose the corporation and what considerations ought to qualify them for membership. We could have Debates ranging over several days on that Clause alone. Clauses 2 and 7 are equally important. Some hon. Members have referred to them today already and I will not go into them in detail.
Clause 7, I, personally, exampled on the Second Reading of the Bill. It is a dangerous Clause, which allows an independent corporation to take power of compulsory acquisition in the same way as local authorities in order to acquire land from private persons at comparatively fixed prices. Then there is the most extraordinary and, if the subject were not so serious, the amusing Clause 29, which gives the corporation power to arrange its finances. The ramifications of that Clause upon prices of the subsidiary products of steel will take hours and ought to take hours of Committee Debate. Then there are the compensation Clauses which are clearly of great importance. All this has to be done in 35 days.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) has given the House in detail the experience of the Town and Country Planning Act and the Transport Act. I will not go into the various precedents which are there and which I could do if time allowed. With regard to the Town and Country Planning Act, it is a fact that 400 Amendments were put down for Report of which 200 were, Government Amendments, all because there was insufficient time on the Committee stage. On the Transport Act there were 176 Government Amendments alone put down on Report due to inadequacy of time in Committee. The Transport Act, so far as I have been able to study what was done and the amount of time involved, was not 75 per cent. properly covered by the time allowed. Instead of 31 sittings on the Transport Bill there ought to have been at least 40. The Gas Act has been referred to. That took 36 days, including many all night sittings, but it was not so controversial a Bill as the Transport Act or as the Steel Bill is likely to be.

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I was amazed at the Lord President's objection to the methods pursued on the Gas Bill. He said we had been obstructionists. How could there be an obstruction unless there was something to be obstructionist against. On the Gas Bill unlimited time was allowed—and rightly so—for the full and free discussion of all those questions which were debated. The right hon. Gentleman could only accuse us of obstruction if we wanted to debate a Clause when the discussion automatically comes to an end. That is the moment when obstruction arises. There cannot be obstruction when there is absolutely free time to debate a question, as there was on the Gas Act.
On these analogies the Steel Bill does not need 35 days but 50 to 60 days for discussion. We might need to sit during the spring and summer in the consideration of this Measure. On 3rd March, 1947, my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington said that we on this side of the House were definitely prepared to go on through the summer and into the autumn by special Session if necessary, and the Lord President himself in a memorandum to the Select Committee on Procedure agreed that in the case of major Bills it might be necessary to have a special Session in order to carry them through. Now we are approaching Christmas and we shall not get down to the hard kernel of this Bill until the turn of the year. By that reckoning we ought to go into the summer to discuss it, and I am quite certain that another place would be prepared to adopt the line taken by the Lord President and my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Learnington, and agree to an extension of the Session.
I should like to know from the Government what is their attitude on adjourning the House for the afternoon. The Select Committee recommended it and said that sitting three mornings a week ought to be considered abnormal because of party and Select Committees on Wednesday mornings. They recommended a revival of Standing Order No. 49A. The Government memorandum originally proposed it. The Lord President himself when he gave evidence before the Select Committee on 18th
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September, 1945, said in Question No. 117:
"There is something to be said for a standing arrangement being reached whereby the House would meet for Questions only on Mondays and then the Committees would sit. It could be done by Sessional Orders."
Monday is not a popular day with hon. Gentlemen. Distant Members often do not come here and Lobbies are very difficult to man. The Lord President often acknowledges that situation by arranging very dreary business for discussion. I should like to know from the Government what facilities and extensions they propose to prevent public obloquy and resentment arising from this attempt to stifle free, Parliamentary discussion. They ought to be prepared to accept Standing Order No. 49A so that Committees could sit not only in the mornings but in the afternoons. If they will not do it, that strengthens our case for demanding far more time than up to 17th March before this Bill is brought to a conclusion in Committee.
The Government must make some attempt of that kind because Labour votes are not so easy to come by in these days. It is not bullying any longer that is going to do the trick. It is accommodation, and unless the Government accommodate the Opposition from now on, and lend their whole weight to free Parliamentary discussion, they are going to lose confidence in the country, and nobody knows that better than the Lord President.
I turn from the Committee stage to the Report stage, about which I do not think enough has been said, particularly on the question of recommittal. The Lord President has told us that he considers four days generous. I call it an insulting proposal. My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington has referred to your evidence, Mr. Speaker, before the Select Committee and indeed you referred on a number of occasions, particularly in your original memorandum to that Select Committee, to what arises on the Report stage if a Bill is taken upstairs. How wise your prognosis of events was on the Transport and Town and Country Planning Bills. Three days were allotted to each of these, including recommittal, and the inclusion of recommittal was most important. The Town and Country Planning Bill was recommitted in respect of 48 Amendments and nine new Clauses and

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Schedules. Consideration on Report stage proper, that is to say after recommittal, began only at 5 p.m. on the second day, 13th May, which is equivalent to one day and a half for discussion and Report, 14 hours in all. At 9.30 on the third day Clause 15 only was reached and no fewer than 158 Amendments went through without any discussion at all.
The Transport Bill was even worse. It was recommitted in respect of 38 Amendments and three new Clauses. The Report stage proper began at 8 p.m. on the second day and again there was a day and a half for Report stage, 12 hours in all, from 8 to 2 in the morning and 3.30 to 9.30 on the subsequent day. At 9.30 p.m. Clause 40 only had been reached. I have not had the patience to count up the Amendments not discussed, but they occupy 60 columns of HANSARD and they practically went through "on the nod." It was at that moment that, to commemorate this ugly thrust of dictatorship into our British Parliamentary system, the hon. Lady the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) danced her jig on the Floor of the House. She might very well do it again now.
To provide four days for this vital Steel Bill and include recommittal in it, is a second and a worse affront to Parliamentary procedure and practice and, in my view, constitutes a very grave infringement of the rights of minority parties and opinion in this House. These evils and stupidities arise from a fundamental fault in the composition of the Labour Party. Here I wish to emphasise, if emphasis is called for, the wise words of my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford City (Mr. Hogg). I have watched hon. Gentlemen at work now for seven or eight years. I have tried to study their characters, their political characters. They behave to me like atoms in a chemical compound. There is no alternative in their characters between a kind of inert separatism and violent association. They have no halfway house between individualism on the one hand which is too often curtailed and controlled by their own executive, and penalised by banishment from the Labour Party and, on the other hand, autocracy riding roughshod over events.
It cannot be said of the Labour Party, as it was said 40 years ago of the Conservative Party, by a very eminent biographer:
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"The Conservative Party embraces men of many different factions united, not through unfaithfulness to their individual principles, but through reliance in the swift movement of events upon those precious few which they hold in common."
The Labour Party is incapable of a loose, but constant, association. Consequently, their hand on public events is capricious in timing and brutal in application. They are gorillas plunging about in the garden of English democracy.
Mr. Nally: What is the noble Lord supposed to be—Tarzan?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I have watched hon. Members and I say in great humility that I do not believe they yet understand the essence of Parliamentary government, that Government by discussion is the secret of liberty and that minority rights must extend very far into Parliamentary time, if Britain is to remain free.
The Labour Party wishes to curtail in time the legislative function of Parliament, and to pitch the initiative of legislation outside Parliament altogether, somewhere in the recesses of the Civil Service or, perhaps worse, in the recesses of Transport House. They must forgive me if I say they really do not know what Parliament is all about, or why they are here. They do not accept that legislation ought to arise almost spontaneously in the course of the impact between the Executive and the people's elected representatives, and they do not realise that Bills should be shaped and moulded, as the hon. Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Maclay) said, by the Government, by the Opposition, by small parties and Independents, taking such time as is naturally provided by the capacity and patience of all as Members of the House of Commons—and I emphasise as Members of the House of Commons.
It is for that prime reason that every member of the Executive in our British Parliamentary system is required to be first of all a member of the legislature. Representation comes before authority. We are essentially not here as governors of society, or delegates from special interests armed with previously prepared legislation, to work our wills upon each other and win by size and bulk. If we have any virtue at all, it is the virtue, not of strength and will power, but of representation, and representation of

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those ordinary men and women in the country who have sent us here to frame the quantity and kind of legislation that they themselves would frame if it were physically possible for them to be in this Chamber, and also at the speed at which they themselves would do it. It is because the Government and the party opposite have deserted this vital function of representation and have thrown back the historical development of the House of Commons, that I chiefly condemn what was done in this House on 3rd March last year and what is being done here today.
7.29 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Lee: As a humble member of this party, perhaps I should be excused for stumbling somewhat to find whether my background is that of a gorilla or that of an atom moving in a chemical compound, as described by the noble Lord the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). After his peroration, one could say that we on this side of the House feel that the noble Lord is perhaps the last—maybe with the exception of his hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers)—of that class-conscious type of Tory to whom we are still greatly indebted for utterances which, from time to time, disclose to the people of this country that background of snobbery and utter inefficiency to control the destinies of the people, which we have in the country today.
At times we have been greatly indebted to him for his contributions. He spoke of the rise of the Labour Party from 1887 and I questioned his history. When he pointed out that the rise of the Labour Party was instrumental in bringing about the Guillotine, I felt that again he made a most significant point. We are accused today of using that Guillotine in a despotic way. It comes somewhat ill from the benches opposite to say that when the Labour Party first began to show itself in public life, when, in other words, there was a danger of the old mock battle between Tweedledum and Tweedledee coming to an end, it was felt necessary at that stage to stifle opposition—that is, opposition of a type which challenged the continuation of the system itself; that it was necessary to use extra-Parliamentary methods in order
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to ensure that that system which had been upheld for so long should continue in existence. In saying that sort of thing, the noble Lord is making quite sure that those Labour votes which he is concerned about and which he thinks we may lose, will remain with us for quite a long time to come.
I do not disagree in principle with the theoretical basis of the arguments used by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) or the hon. Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Maclay). I would greatly deplore the spectacle of minorities in this House, of the Opposition in this Parliament, not having full facility to express their view, to question and to use reasoned arguments, to get the Government to change their minds—in fact, to use this place as a platform for stating views which, although they have not commanded the majority of the electorate at the preceding Election, should nevertheless give food for thought, in the guidance of our democratic institutions. If this House ever fails to be a debating Chamber of that type, we shall be in danger of losing that democratic background which we in this party, and I believe the majority of Members opposite, admire and desire to retain.
Therefore, in theory I do not think there is a lot between us in that respect. But when we have heard efforts such as that of the noble Lord, accusations that we are trying to get rid of all types of democratic conceptions—and that on the very day when, because of embarrassment of the Leader of the Opposition, we witnessed in this House the spectacle of the Government Chief Whip moving the Adjournment in order that the right hon. Gentleman might have the full authority of yourself, Mr. Speaker, to proceed within the principles which govern the conduct of Members in this House—we can only say that it is cheap hypocrisy for the noble Lord to represent us as trying to veto democratic discussion in this assembly.
The hon. Member for Oxford told us that those of us on these back benches who support the Government on this issue are dupes or accomplices. I wonder whether he considered that when his noble father and his associates gave full support to the Tory Government in 1927 to guillotine the rights of Members in this House to discuss the Trades Disputes Act, that they were dupes and accomplices or

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that they were indeed very clever men in refusing to allow the trade unions to discuss what was an attempt to emasculate trade union authority in this country?
Mr. Henry Strauss: Nonsense.
Mr. Lee: Until 1945 this Assembly had never known a Government with power which seriously challenged in principle the right of Tory and Liberal Administrations to maintain a state of society which we on these benches feel was fundamentally against the interests of the people of this country. The whole constitution of this House had been built in such a way that it was fair to call it the most exclusive club in London. In 1945, the people determined that that type of thing must end. When they sent this Government and its supporters here, they determined that there was a need for a fundamental change in the whole conception of the use of this Parliament. It is utterly impossible for any Government, functioning within the period of a five-year life, to put into operation those fundamental changes which are so necessary, unless there is a change in conception as to the uses to which this House must be put.
On the question of principle, I suggest that the present Government have done more to maintain democratic thought in the country than any preceding Government. The efforts of this Government, violently opposed at times by hon. Members opposite, to show to the people the economic changes which have taken place have, indeed, resulted in a far more highly educated democracy than we had any right to expect that we could achieve following the type of educational system with which Toryism had left us for so long. These efforts, so far as the production of White Papers, etc., are concerned, are now more closely followed than ever before by hundreds of thousands of people who in the past never had the opportunity to know what was going on in Government.
I believe that the people are demanding that this institution of Parliament, which we in this party will continue to respect, shall be used not merely as a talking shop, not merely as the most exclusive club in London, but as a Parliament to which they can look to alter that social background which brought us to such calamity between the two wars,
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and to alter it as speedily as may be. I believe, that this Measure which the Government have now placed before us, considered within that concept, is vitally essential.
For my part—and I believe that I speak for most of my hon. Friends on these benches—I would vigorously oppose this or any Government which I believed was trying to stifle democratic thought and discussion in this House. They and I believe, from the examples we have seen, and from the background of the three and a half years of work by this Government, that they have done a great job of work in educating and bringing men and women in the factories in the great towns to understand what government means, and to understand their own responsibility for government to such a degree that they and we can go forward confidently in supporting the Government on this Measure. We believe that by so doing we can expedite great social changes which are now essential in the life of our country, and that we can do so without having recourse, in the working of our Parliamentary institutions, to means which we feel are dictatorial in outlook. For those reasons, I hope that the House will give the Government an overwhelming majority in support of this Guillotine Motion, believing as I do that it will give sections of back bench opinion of this side of the House, as well as on the other side, the opportunity to discuss intelligently and constructively, and if necessary to criticise, the proposals contained in the Steel Bill.
7.40 p.m.
Major Haughton: On different occasions I, for one, have said that if a Bill becomes an Act of Parliament and so passes into law, it is the plain and simple duty of a law-abiding citizen to do what he or she can to make that Act work. But that line of argument depends on the assumption that the Measure, when passing through this House, at its various stages is given adequate discussion and thought and is studied fully. Surely, there ought to be that thought and discussion, particularly during the Committee stage, when every line, every word, every comma, should be studied.
Many references have been made to the work of the Committee that considered the Transport Bill. I do not

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want to weary the House by repeating many of the things that have been said of the work of that Committee, on which I served. However, I shall always remember and deplore the fact that there were 37 Clauses passed that were never discussed at all. I cannot help thinking that time will prove that the failure to discuss those Clauses will lead to many difficulties that otherwise would have been avoided, and which will lead to litigation which, too, would have been unnecessary. The hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Proctor) drew a comparison between the Transport Bill and the Iron and Steel Bill; but while the Transport Bill was indeed a vast Measure, this is a more complicated Measure, and I feel it requires the most incisive examination.
As a business man I look at these things from a business point of view. I am not in the least interested in obstruction for obstruction's sake, and I find no interest at all in political tactics which have for their object delay in the passing of this or any other Measure. However, I believe that before this vast Measure is passed through the Committee stage, adequate time should be devoted to it. It is quite ridiculous to suggest that all this can be dealt with in the Parliamentary time available between now and the middle of March next year. In any case, from the business point of view, I ask myself, why this haste? Why is this Measure to be rushed through? Why should the Guillotine be necessary, in any case? What we should have in the very forefront of our minds all the time are the interests of this great industry, and they should be given all the necessary time for attention without regard to political tactics.
Mention has been made by more than one hon. Member of the 107 firms listed in the Third Schedule, firms of nationwide repute, many of them of worldwide repute. I think it is only fair, before they are absorbed into the State monopoly, that there should be ample opportunity for representations to be made on behalf of every one, so that their individual cases can be put before hon. Members during the Committee stage. Surely that consideration ought to be accepted? I find it hard to believe that any hon. Member in any part of the House would agree that a very big
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and important British firm should be absorbed into the State monopoly without being given an adequate opportunity to put its own case. There are 107 firms in that Third Schedule. Consideration of their cases alone would take up a tremendous amount of time. [Laughter.] I do not see that there is anything to laugh at in giving time to consider the status of a firm that is to be absorbed into the monopoly.
Mr. George Porter: References have been made earlier tonight to another Bill in respect of which the Guillotine was used. Would the hon. and gallant Member suggest that in regard to the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill every trade union in the country should have been considered before the Bill was passed?
Major Haughton: Every Clause of the Bill was discussed, and I say that every Clause of this Bill should be discussed. I question very much whether, in the programme that has been laid down, there is the least likelihood that every one of the Clauses in the Bill will be debated. In 1945 the Caretaker Government asked the iron and steel industry to bring in a report on its proposals for development. To the best of my recollection that report was forthcoming fairly quickly, because the industry is well organised. I think the report was submitted to the Government in December, 1945. It was May of the following year before the Ministry concerned agreed with the general terms of that Report. I think that if the Government took close on five months—rather more than that—to consider that single report, they could give a great deal more of Parliamentary time for the Committee stage of this Bill than they are allowing. I do hope that time will be given far beyond 17th March.
I have looked at the Bill, and I do not think there is anything in it which deals specifically with Ireland, North or South. However, there are tens of thousands of Irishmen working in industry as producers and users of steel, and I think that they will all be of one mind, that it would be deplorable if St. Patrick's Day should be chosen for the closure of the Committee stage of this Bill. On that day we as Irishmen take in hand to "drown the shamrock"—not to send the iron and steel industry to its doom.
7.47 p.m.
Mr. Edward Porter: I happen to have been a Member of the Committee that dealt with the Gas Bill. I want to say that I enjoyed it. I had been under the impression that I had some slight idea, from the trade union point of view, of what are called "restrictive practices," but I had not been on the Committee many days before I was forced to the conclusion that the workers of this country had not the slightest idea what restrictive practices really are. So we arranged during the sittings of the Committee that gas workers from a local gas works here in London should attend one of those sittings to see hon. members of the Conservative Party, employers of labour, actually put into operation restrictive practices.
Mr. Tiffany: There was no restriction of gas.
Mr. Porter: I came to the conclusion that if any employer in the House in future suggested that the trade union movement of this country encouraged restrictive practices, I should have to tell him that he did not know what he was talking about if he had had no experience of this Committee on the Gas Bill. We started by being told by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. B. Bracken), who led the Opposition, that they would oppose every full stop, every comma; and would keep us there as long as they possibly could.
Mr. Pitman: Would the hon. Member say at which column in the OFFICIAL REPORT that remark of my right hon. Friend's is reported? I have no recollection of that having been said.
Mr. Tiffany: Fifth column.
Mr. Porter: The right hon. Gentleman told us definitely what he was going to do, along with hon. Members of his party. When one hon. Member of the Opposition had made a speech, the right hon. Gentleman would persuade another Member of his party, when it became the turn of the Tory Party to speak, to make the same argument all over again.
Mr. Jennings: That was because the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. E. Porter) had only one argument to be answered.
Mr. Porter: I am glad that the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) is here, because he gave us plenty of enjoyment in the Committee by referring to the Bath Gas Company, of which he told us quite openly that he happened to be a director. Many times he tried to defend the shareholders and directors not only of the Bath Gas Company but of all the other gas companies of which he could possibly think. He repeated the same type of argument, and then would draw our attention to nationalisation. He appealed to the Chairman to say that the word "nationalisation" was spelt wrongly. He said that it ought to have a "z" in it instead of an "s." For a long while we had to put up with that kind of thing. The hon. Member for Northwich (Mr. J. Foster) used to come into the Committee just after tea. He would be told what had transpired, and on one occasion he was told by the right hon. Member for Bournemouth that the Chairman had just ruled out five Amendments. The hon. Member for Northwich was not standing for that. He was politely told that if he spoke on them he would be out of Order. That night both parties had agreed to finish a little early, but the hon. Member for Northwich was not having any of that either, so, for one-and-a-half hours he skated round those five Amendments, without being out of Order, and finished up by not moving any of them.
On that occasion the right hon. Member for Bournemouth—I am sorry he is not here—said, "We are going to keep you a long time tomorrow night." After that night's Sitting we retired, and we Labour Members came to the conclusion that we would give them what they were asking for—a few all-night Sittings. Then they strongly objected. They arranged for their Members to come in in relays—staggered hours—and inquired where their Members were staying at the various hotels so that they could be rung up in the middle of the night if there was a Division. I ask hon. Members opposite, quite seriously—can they make any working-class audience believe that they were seriously examining that particular Bill with the idea of trying to put on the Statute Book a good Bill by the tactics I have described?
Mr. Jennings: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman's recollection as a

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Member of that Committee is not quite correct. I was never asked while on that Committee for my telephone number, or for my hotel telephone number so that I could come along to vote in a Division. I would remind the hon. Member that he has said nothing at all—and I hope that he will—about where his own Members spent their time during the discussions. They were out of the Committee room for three parts of the time, and only came in when a Division was called.
Mr. Porter: Of course we were outside during that night's Sitting—that 36 hours' stretch. We quite candidly agreed about that, and said, "You go into the next room and have five minutes' sleep, and we will deal with these people, and then you can come back." I say seriously that I have never been a Member of any Committee where such disgraceful tactics were adopted by the Opposition, not with the idea of improving the Bill, but solely from the point of view of making the meetings last as long as possible. Their sole idea was to try, as far as it was humanly possible, to keep the Bill off the Statute Book as long as they could. I am exceedingly pleased that at last the Government have decided that there is to be an end to that nonsense. It was a pity that this action was not taken at the beginning of the life of this Parliament because if it had been, we would have had far more Bills through by now than we have had.
I conclude by saying to the Opposition that before this Government came into power, the majority of the workers of this country did not know of HANSARD, but now, through the various shop stewards, the workers in many of the works throughout the country have a copy of HANSARD put before them in the lunch hour. They know what is taking place, and they know the game that the Opposition are playing. If the Opposition think they are going to make any converts by the tactics which they have been adopting since this Parliament began, they are living in a fool's paradise.
Colonel Dower: I have been on a great many Standing Committees, and I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is being very honest over this matter, because if the Minister shows a little appreciation of the other person's point of view and is
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prepared to give way a little, the amount of co-operation that can be obtained is surprising.
Mr. Porter: The hon. and gallant Gentleman's question is too childish to answer. The Opposition said that they would oppose the Bill to the bitter end. They were not prepared to accept any compromise in any shape or form. I hope, therefore, that this Motion will go through tonight, and I am only sorry that it was not introduced at the beginning of this Parliament.
7.58 p.m.
Mr. Turton: If there was any point in the remarks of the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. E. Porter) it was that it is a great fault of the Government to send important nationalisation Measures to a Standing Committee and not to deal with them—where they ought to be dealt with—on the Floor of the House. I regard the Iron and Steel Bill as affecting the whole structure of industry and the economic life of the nation. I believe that it is a Parliamentary crime to send such a Bill to a Standing Committee and thereby to exclude some 550 Members of Parliament from discussing it. Holding that view, it is quite foolish of me to argue those parts of the Motion which deal with the Committee stage. I say quite frankly that whatever amount of time we put in, it would not serve any useful purpose in getting a proper understanding and discussion of this Measure. I represent some 50,000 constituents, and many of them are small shareholders in steel companies.
Mr. Walker: Any workers?
Mr. Turton: A great many workers are small shareholders in these companies. If this House is going to take away the rights of the shareholders, however small, and compensate them with a mere 10 per cent. of the value of their shares, there is a duty for every Member of Parliament to put a case to the House and to the Government. These 550 Members are to be robbed of that opportunity, and they will have no time, either on Committee stage or, as I hope to show, on the Report stage of this Bill to put forward their views. Therefore, I confine myself to the question of Report stage and Third Reading.

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This is the first time we have had a Guillotine Motion for the Report stage and Third Reading before any discussion of the Bill in Committee. This covers entirely new ground on the totalitarian model. The Town and Country Planning Act has been referred to, but the Guillotine Motion in that instance was not quite the same because there had been some discussion. I wish to submit an argument which I am surprised has not been used before. What has been the result of that procedure with that Act? No one in the country understands it. [t is now clear to everybody who has studied the Act that either this Government or its successor will have to introduce amending legislation, because that Act is quite inoperable. Surely, that is a very unwise precedent for the Government to follow in subjecting the complicated Iron and Steel Bill to the Guillotine procedure, whereby hon. Members on both sides, with their common sense and knowledge, are precluded from submitting considerations affecting their constituents.
I regard this Guillotine procedure for the Report stage as derogatory of the Chair. On Report it is the duty of Mr. Speaker so to arrange the Debate that all the Clauses receive adequate attention. Mr. Speaker is armed with full powers to grant the Closure, and to see that its use is effected. But this is something entirely new. With the Iron and Steel Bill, the most important Bill of the Session, Mr. Speaker, is not to be left to decide what should and what should not be discussed on Report. As I understood the Lord President, he admitted this was an entirely new step in Parliamentary procedure. For the first time the Business Committee will allocate the time of the House.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) quoted the evidence Mr. Speaker gave before the Select Committee on Procedure. I shall not repeat what he quoted, but I do want to draw attention to another passage, when Mr. Speaker was dealing with the use of the Guillotine on Report. He was asked by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank):
"The other thing I wanted to ask Mr. Speaker was this: How far, in his experience, the Chairman is still able to safeguard the rights of minorities if, as the Government paper says, the Chairman is not absolved from
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using the closure? If the Chairman is frequently using the closure, it is difficult to see how he can also safeguard the minority on the strict timetable."
Mr. Speaker replied:
"Well, that is one of the delicate matters a Chairman has to settle. He has the power to accept the closure. You cannot rule out the use of the closure because there is a timetable. I do not think that has ever been the practice in the past. I think the Chairman is there to try and safeguard the views of minorities and he has got the power to prevent abuses, and I think you have got to trust the Chairman. I am afraid that is the only answer I can give there."
He went on to add this, to which I wish particularly to draw the attention of the House:
"I do not like the idea of the timetable being arranged for Report by a Special Committee. I think it is a matter for the House itself."
My right hon. and gallant Friend went on with his question, and said:
"I gather really from what you said that, if you have the guillotine procedure for Committees, it is almost impossible to have one for the Report stage—certainly ahead of time."
Mr. Speaker replied:
"I should have thought it would be very difficult. [Question] You would have to wait and see how you got on in the Committee if it was necessary to have one at all? [Answer] Yes."
This is the first time that evidence has been completely contradicted by this Government. Mr. Speaker said in effect: "Until you have had the Bill in Committee it is quite impossible to see how you can allocate the time on Report." The Government, no doubt in view of that advice, did not impose this Guillotine procedure before the Committee stage in the case of the Transport Act and the Town and Country Planning Act. But on the Iron and Steel Bill they have defied the advice Mr. Speaker gave before that Select Committee. I believe that to be a very dangerous step, and one marking the rapid progress the Government are making towards the totalitarian method of Parliamentary procedure.
I warn the Government against taking this step. It may well be that in course of time the Minister of Health will take over the reins of office. If that happens we shall have this new totalitarian method used for all Bills; and it may well be that some hon. Members who support the present Prime Minister will not support the Minister of Health

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when he becomes Prime Minister. A short while ago we had a speech from the hon. Member for Hulme (Mr. Lee), who said he was a democrat. I thought his speech proved he was merely a dupe in this matter and not an accomplice. Quite clearly he has no guilty knowledge of what the Government are doing. Knowing that if this Motion is passed my constituents will be precluded from having their views expressed on this important Measure, I shall support the Amendment before the House.
8.8 p.m.
Mr. Fairhurst: Any hon. Member who sat on the Gas Bill Standing Committee, especially in the later stages, must have come away with a vivid impression of the shape of things to come. Had the Government not taken note of what happened in the concluding stages of that Bill, I can truly say they would have been in a "jam" with this Iron and Steel Bill. I pay this compliment to the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) who led the Opposition on that Standing Committee: he led them gallantly; he did his job well; he was astute; he was clever; he was insulting; he was everything that a general should be to keep his team together—but they did not manage to keep together. In the concluding stages of that Committee—and this is an illustration of what takes place in Committee—the Opposition were operating in relays; hon. Members would be away for five or six hours, and then come back in the morning refreshed to relieve their colleagues, who would then go off duty. I can compliment myself on the fact that after 56 hours I did not bat an eyelid. I did not go to sleep at all, and I can give Members opposite the recipe if they care to have it—a cold shower and plenty of tea.
Mr. Jennings: If the hon. Member did not bat an eyelid, I compliment him, but as far as I could see most of his hon. Friends were asleep in easy chairs practically all the time.
Mr. Fairhurst: If a film and a record of the speeches could have been made of those 56 hours, it would have broken all records, and people would have had some idea of Parliament and how the work is done.
Mr. Jennings: It would have had to be a silent film so far as Members on the Government Benches were concerned.
Mr. Fairhurst: I try to look at this matter objectively. I can see the value of Standing Committees. It is there a Bill can be built up into something presentable. If we were to have a non-controversial Measure, I can imagine that we should have all the ability and experience of Members on both sides helping to improve it, but the moment we have a controversial Measure, the Opposition are determined to spoil it and make it unworkable, and that is when all the fun begins. Instead of having every Member doing his best to make the Measure more presentable, the Opposition Members try to retard its progress and make it impossible for the Bill to be re-ported to the House. That was my impression in the case of the Gas Bill.
I will give two examples of the sort of thing I mean. After the hon. Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts) had been speaking for about 35 minutes, the Chairman gently chided him and asked him to bear in mind what was being considered by the Committee. The hon. Member then went on for almost another half an hour, when he was again chided by the Chairman. The hon. Member apologised to the Chairman on the second occasion and told him that he was just coming to the conclusion of his speech because, as he said, he was almost exhausted. He then added that he would now come to what he wanted to say. That is an example of the sort of thing that takes place. It does not make sense, and in Lancashire we should say that it is "daft."
When the Government are trying to introduce a Bill which has to last for years—and I do not care what sort of Government it is—and they find that sort of thing happening, then I think it is time something was done about it. On another occasion I remember that when a Division was called the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth immediately began to argue a point of Order. The argument went on and on about freedom and democracy, and we then heard the right hon. Member say: "This is a free country," and the Chairman said: "This is a free country. Lock the doors." I also remember an hon.

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Member repeating himself over a dozen times who, when it was pointed out to him, admitted that he had over-stretched the point.
How can sensible men do business if this is to happen? How can any Government get their Business done? If the Opposition are returned at the next General Election the same sort of thing will no doubt go on. Are the Conservatives suggesting that they, too, would be willing to allow this state of affairs which makes it impossible for them to get a Bill through Committee stage? It may be good Parliamentary tactics to do this sort of thing, but there is no sense in it and it gets us nowhere. It is bringing Parliamentary business into disrepute, and I think it is time that we did something about it. For my part, I shall go into the Division Lobby in favour of this Motion, quite satisfied that I am doing the right thing.
8.17 p.m.
Mr. Jennings: I am glad to be able to follow the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Fairhurst) as I had the same privilege during the Second Reading Debate. I sat on the Gas Bill Committee, and I think there has been a good deal of romancing about what took place there. I cannot remember my hon. Friend the Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts) saying that he was exhausted, but if there is one thing that stands out in my mind, it is that the Government supporters sat there dumb throughout the whole of the proceedings.
Mr. Fairhurst: We had to, because the Conservatives had so much to say.
Mr. Jennings: We had to keep the Committee going to get the Bill through, but Government supporters sat there saying nothing at all. I could quite understand their boredom. It was because their Ministers had muzzled them. If Government supporters are willing to allow their Ministers to muzzle them on Standing Committees, that is no reason why the Lord President of the Council should try to muzzle us. Why I feel so much resentment about this Motion is because the Government are trying to muzzle freedom of speech. We have been told that some gas workers were invited to the Standing Committee. All I can say is that I hope those workers took full stock of what the Government supporters were
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doing to help that Bill forward. I am sure that when they went home they must have thought they had sent a lot of mutes to the House.
This morning I was officially notified that I am to be a Member of the Standing Committee on the Iron and Steel Bill. After listening to the Lord President, it is clear that when this Bill, which strikes at the economic life of the country, goes to Standing Committee we shall be deprived of the fullest opportunity for discussion. This Motion is a threat to Members on this side of the House. As one of the privileged Members for the City of Sheffield, the great steel city, I believe there are great economic truths to be put forward in Standing Committee. I speak as a chartered accountant professionally associated with iron and steel and steel castings. The ramifications and complexities of this Bill are so far-reaching that the least the Government could have done was to say that they would enable it to be discussed at greater length than any other nationalisation Bill which, so far, has come before the House.
Mr. Willis: That will be the case.
Mr. Jennings: No, it will not. Is the Lord President afraid of a full and proper discussion? Are the Government afraid of the economic truths which may be brought out in Standing Committee? Those associated with the steel industry are entitled to expect me to do everything I can to see that the Bill is thoroughly examined and made as good as possible. The Motion on the Order Paper is an attempt to muzzle the Opposition in the same way as the Lord President has muzzled his own back benchers. I am satisfied of that, because in Standing Committees in the past, whenever a supporter of the Government has looked like making a speech, the Minister or Whip has pulled faces at him and he has not risen.
I believe the Lord President asked the Minister of Fuel and Power, while the Gas Bill was going through Committee, when the Committee stage was likely to be completed. The Minister of Fuel and Power had not much idea, but gave a certain date. The Bill did not come down from upstairs according to that date, and I believe the Minister got his knuckles rapped for giving a wrong date.

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If that is not true, the Lord President can deny it. The Lord President was annoyed and said that by hook or by crook the Bill must be finished in Committee by a certain time. Until then the procedure of the Closure Motion was not used very much, but when the Lord President could not get his Bill quickly enough he decided that it should be operated much more frequently.
I say in all seriousness that every Member of the House has a duty to his electors to examine the Iron and Steel Bill properly. There must be reasoned and fair judgment of every one of its Clauses. Not one Clause must be missed, because every one is important. The Government must not repeat the farce of the Transport Bill. What a disgrace that was to them. Many Clauses and Schedules were not even discussed. Is it any wonder that many Amendments came from another place, because of the inadequate discussion in Standing Committee? Tonight's Motion is a travesty of the rights of the Members of this House, and those who support it will be doing a bad service to the electors who sent them here.
8.23 p.m.
Mr. Tiffany: I am always prepared to be convinced by arguments put forward by Members opposite, but after hearing a speech by the hon. Member for Hallam (Mr. Jennings) I doubt whether any of the arguments which have been put forward from the Opposition benches tonight carry any real conviction. The hon. Member said that we on this side are muzzled, led at the end of a chain, as it were, by the Lord President, that we are not allowed to speak or move Amendments in Committee, that we must be dumb. All these things -he attributed to us on this side of the House. Do Members opposite honestly believe that this is correct? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Well, let us see how true it is. Let us see whether the Opposition are being led up the garden, or whether it is Members on this side.
During the last ordinary Session I was a Member of Standing Committee "B," and enjoyed all the work of that Committee. The last Bill we dealt with was the Monopoly (Inquiry and Control) Bill, of which Members opposite have no
1512
doubt heard. On behalf of one or two of my colleagues who were Members of that Committee, I put down over 30 Amendments to that Bill.
Mr. William Shepherd: is it not a fact that the hon. Gentleman was then most anxious to safeguard the rights and priorities of the Co-operative Societies?
Mr. Tiffany: I am always ready to safeguard the rights of my constituents, whether they are co-operators or not. But that is not the argument; it has been said that we were muzzled, and could not move Amendments in Committee. I am refuting that by saying that I personally put down over 30 Amendments to the Monopoly (Inquiry and Control) Bill. We debated them with the President of the Board of Trade, and not once did the Chief Whip or the Lord President suggest to me that I should not have done such a wicked thing. So much for the argument that we are muzzled.
Mr. Jennings: What about the Gas Bill?
Mr. Tiffany: I am speaking about the Committee on which I sat and I am drawing on my own experiences which entirely disapprove the case by the Opposition that we are muzzled. Any Member who is interested can read the Debates on the Monopoly (Inquiry and Control) Bill and can see that what I am stating is perfectly true. On no occasion did any Whip or the Lord President of the Council suggest that we should stop putting down these Amendments.
Mr. Boothby: How many of these Amendments did the Lord President allow to go through?
Mr. Tiffany: I am sorry I do not remember the number of Amendments that were accepted. A large number were, and if the actual wording was not accepted the principle was. I consider we did a good job on that Committee, and I enjoyed myself. Not only on the Monopoly (Inquiry and Control) Bill, but also on other Bills with which we have dealt, I have enjoyed listening to the arguments put forward by Members of the Opposition. I have listened to

1513
them attempting in many cases to make certain Clauses better and various Bills, like the Local Government Bill, more workable. I approve of that kind of thing and I consider that that is a worth while part of the democratic life of this Parliament. I want to see it continued. I detest the Guillotine as much as any Member on this side or that side of the House, because I know it may be used in wrong directions. Therefore, I hate to see it applied.
But what is the cause of the Guillotine being operated here? We have examples given to us this afternoon of what happened on the Gas Bill. Is it democracy that is operating when there is a 36 hours' continuous session in Committee? At the end of a 35 hours' session are Members of a Committee doing their duty and able to deal with the various Clauses as they should? Are they fresh? I was not on the Committee in question, but I have heard other Members cite their experiences during those long sessions. Who is making a mockery of democracy and of the Parliamentary machine in such matters?
We on this side of the House and the Radicals who preceded us fought in the past in order that we should have a Parliamentary democracy in this country. We on this side of the House know that under this same democracy we can bring into being in this country the economic and political Socialism in which we believe. We would be the last persons in the world to destroy the machine that will bring in the Socialism in which we have great faith. What we are doing—and I suggest this in all seriousness after the farce that was perpetrated in the Gas Bill—is to safeguard that democracy. Hon. Members opposite did not really oppose the Gas Bill in principle. If they did, they would have announced that they would de-nationalise the gas industry when they were returned to power. If they really thought they were fighting against an injustice they would have announced long ago that they would right that injustice when they return to power if that ever arises. But they have accepted the nationalisation of gas. It is the Opposition which is making a mockery of our Parliamentary democracy. We are safeguarding it from the antics and tricks they displayed on the Gas Bill through Committee
8.35 p.m.
Mr. Henry Strauss: Hon. Members on the opposite side have said that at the end of the Debate they will go into the Lobby confidently to vote for the Motion. They can be assured that we on this side of the House will go with equal confidence into the other Lobby to vote in favour of the Amendment.
I desire to support certain points made in the admirable and persuasive speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden). Of course, it is possible to find precedents for certain things, but what is quite certain is that it is impossible to find a precedent for what the Government are doing in this Motion. The combination of three things is unique. I suggest that the precedent is dangerous, and indeed disastrous. The importance of the Bill and its far-reaching nature, the fact that it is being sent upstairs for its Committee stage instead of being dealt with on the Floor of the House so that every Member of Parliament could take part in it, and the timetable which is the immediate subject of our Debate, are a combination of three things for which it is impossible to find any precedent.
I recognise that sincere speeches have been made from the opposite side taking the opposite view. I believe that hon. and right hon. Members opposite are divided into two categories in this matter. There are those who know what lies behind this procedure but want it, desire it, and are determined to carry it through, and those who are quite innocent and have no idea how serious a threat to our democratic way of life is involved in this procedure. I am not expecting all hon. Members to agree with everything that I say, but I am expecting that some hon. Members at any rate will be prepared to listen to my argument, as I have listened to the arguments throughout this Debate without intervening or interrupting upon any issue. Let me deal with some of the precedents put forward by the Leader of the House.
A great many people on both sides of the House have given reminiscences of the Gas Committee. It would obviously not be proper for one who took no part in that Committee to say anything about it, but I did take a part in the Committee on a Bill which interested me a great

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deal, for obvious reasons. It was the Town and Country Planning Bill, now an Act. That Bill was subjected to the procedure of the Guillotine, although not from the beginning, but from a comparatively early stage. The Steel Bill will be subjected to it from the beginning. I wonder whether any Member thinks that the procedure upon the Town and Country Planning Bill was a success. I speak with some experience of the Ministry concerned and I will express the view that the Minister of Town and Country Planning would be the first to admit, if he were at liberty to give his opinion to this House, that that Act would be free from many defects which are giving him a great deal of trouble today if the Bill had had adequate discussion.
Let me deal with another Act which has been referred to in many speeches, the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Act, 1927. I know that that Act excites the greatest controversy between the two sides of the House. It would obviously be quite out of Order, nor do I have the desire, to go into the merits of that Act, but, on the particular point on which it has been cited today, the precedent does not help right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite at all, first, for the reason given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington that all the discussion took place on the Floor of the House, and secondly for the reason that the time allocated was calculated to ensure—and did ensure—that every Section of that Act was fully discussed in this House.
The timetable actually set for the Iron and Steel Bill cannot conceivably produce that result. Every Member of this House can make his own guess as to which Clauses will be discussed, but what is quite demonstrably certain is that all the Clauses cannot be discussed. That is a very vital difference. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why cannot they be discussed?"] Because the time allotted does not permit it. If the hon. Member who intervened would make a calculation after reading the Bill, I am quite confident that, devoting an honest mind to it, he will come to the same conclusion as I have, that it is absolutely impossible. He may make his own guess as to which of the Clauses ought to be discussed, and other people may take a
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different view, but it is absolutely certain that it will be impossible to discuss them all.
I want to make one point which nobody has yet made in this Debate or in the Debate on Second Reading but which is very germane to the matter before us. My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) pointed out that some of the Clauses of the Bill closely follow precedents in previous nationalisation Acts, but there is one very great difference between this Bill and all previous nationalisation Bills—that it proposes to effect nationalisation by transferring the securities of 107 particular named companies. Those companies are set out in the Schedule. What is the reason why those particular companies are selected? I do not know whether even Ministers have yet observed the important fact that all those companies selected for nationalisation are not described in any operative words of the Bill itself. In lay language, the Bill simply says, "We will take over the securities of the companies named in the Schedule." I see the Minister searching the Bill and I expect that his eye will alight in a moment on Clause 11 (3). That Subsection is the only passage in the Bill which purports to describe what the Government are taking over.
The unique thing—I believe he would search Acts of Parliament in vain to find anything like it—is that if someone, no matter from which side of the House, set down an Amendment in Committee to leave out Subsection (3), the Government could accept the Amendment without making any difference at all to the operation of the Bill. The only legal effect of the Clause is to take over the companies set out in the Schedule. The description is an afterthought designed to make a little more decent the non-application of the Standing Order No. 36 which was considered and dealt with by Mr. Speaker before the former Debate took place. I am sure that any fair-minded man, whatever his politics, would say, "Supposing any one of these companies set out in that Schedule does not answer the description in Subsection (3), or if the opinion of the Minister about its satisfying the conditions is wrong the company ought to have the ordinary protection of something like Private Bill legislation in order to state its case." I say that if hon. Members will look at Clause 11 (3), together with the

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Schedule of the companies that are to be taken over, they will come to the conclusion that that Clause alone will require long Debate in Standing Committee if the risk of grave injustice is to be avoided.
An important fact about this Bill is its constitutional aspect. Almost the only matter agreed between the two sides of the House is the great importance of this Bill. About that there is no dispute. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Ministers have reminded this House and the country repeatedly that what is at stake at present is the economic survival of this country. Very much bound up with that survival, by the admission of everybody, is this industry. If this Bill is a wrong way of treating the industry, then the effect on the future of this country will be absolutely disastrous. That alone makes it a Bill of the most fundamental importance. Nor can it be denied that that importance is a constitutional importance, if "constitutional" has any reasonable meaning at all. For that I would cite two authorities. The first authority I would cite, because I think it is true and honest, is a statement from a back bencher of this House, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks). This is what the hon. Member said about this Bill:
"Once we have nationalised steel, we shall have broken the back of capitalist control of industry for ever, and after that happens, whatever party is in power, we shall be a Socialist State."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd November, 1948; Vol. 457, c. 925.]
"Whatever party is in power, we shall be a Socialist State"! I want to pay a tribute to the hon. Member for Broxtowe for the honesty of that statement, but how is it possible, taking that view, to deny that this is a constitutional Measure? If this Bill is to mean that we are entering a Socialist society, a decision irreversible whatever happens and whatever the electors say, how is it possible to deny that this is a constitutional Measure?
Let me take another speech. I wonder how many hon. Members opposite have studied what the Lord President of the Council said in a speech last weekend. He said—I am not quoting his exact words—that the purpose of this Bill was to secure economic democracy as contrasted with political democracy. If that is so, I should have thought, whatever else it meant, it meant that this was a
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constitutional Measure. I would warn the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members opposite that this talk of economic democracy, as contrasted with political democracy, has a somewhat unfortunate history.
Mr. Tolley: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. What has the hon. and learned Member's speech to do with the Motion under discussion?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): That is the question which is passing through my own mind as I am listening to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Mr. Strauss: As has been ruled by your predecessor in the Chair, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, the Amendment under discussion affords considerable latitude for debate. I think, however, that I have in mind all the limitations of which you may be thinking and I hope I shall not transgress. Nor do I think it is particularly generous of hon. Members opposite, in view of the line we on this side have taken about speeches opposite, to attempt thus to curb the expression of my views.
Hon. Members opposite certainly will not stop my saying this: What is the precedent for this talk of economic democracy as contrasted with political democracy? It was made in defence of the Communist line in every country of Eastern Europe preparatory to its being swallowed up by Communist tyranny. That brings me to the supreme constitutional impropriety of both sending this Bill upstairs, which I cannot discuss, and of subjecting it to this strict timetable when it gets there. For that there is ample precedent, but not in this country. The precedents are entirely totalitarian. It is perfectly easy to justify everything that is being done, both in the Bill and in the timetable, on Marxist principles. It is not possible to justify those things on any other.
That is why I repeat that it is not in the least a fluke that the Bill is so heartily backed by precisely those Members of the Cabinet who were once expelled from the Socialist Party for forming a common front with the Communists. [Interruption.] It has everything to do with it. What we are asked to do is to take a very important totalitarian step, and hon. and right hon. Gentlemen are absolutely wrong if they think

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that that will not be pointed out both in this House and in the country.
I have mentioned the technical point which arises on Clause 11. Hon. Members opposite are familiar with the fact that the Bill, which this Motion will make it impossible to discuss fully, will divide up certain industries, like the engineering industry, into the section that is nationalised and the section that is not. There is not a single provision in the Bill which gives any protection at all to the non-nationalised section to secure that it will not be killed entirely by a denial of raw materials or by being charged an unfair price.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. and learned Gentleman is not entitled to deal with the merits of the Bill under the guise of dealing with the Guillotine Motion. In my view, he is doing that now.
Mr. Strauss: I at once bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and therefore will not develop that line further. I think, however, that I am entitled to draw attention to the effect of the Bill as it stands in order to show the absolute necessity, in our view, for Amendments, which will not be possible unless we can have full discussions. That is my submission. It is no part of my purpose to go into any minor points. Those points I have endeavoured to put to the House are, I submit, points of vital importance to the future of this country and even to the survival of a free society.
I agree absolutely with the line taken by my right hon. Friend in moving the Amendment and with a great deal of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg). I agree, of course, that there are hon. Members opposite who do not realise everything involved in this procedure; but if they have studied the Bill and this procedure they will inevitably come to the conclusion that what is proposed is quite without parallel in our country, that it makes Parliamentary discussion on matters of the most vital importance to the people impossible and, I am bound to add, that it is a worthy continuation of a policy which has been followed so often by this Government in the last three years. I remember in particular that in 1947, a year we know now to
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have been absolutely disastrous, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer frequently tells us how bad it was, when there was a demand for a Debate—in which the other side joined—on the economic situation in view of the disaster to which we were drifting in the spring, this is what the then Leader of the House said to my right hon. Friend when he asked for an extension of time:
"I thought that I erred on the side of generosity when I agreed to a three days' debate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1947; Vol. 434, c. 1144.]
I asked then, as I ask today, whether the Government think that it is by their generosity that the Commons of England discuss national survival. I say that by this Bill, the importance of which has been recognised both by Ministers and by back benchers, if they are making a mistake they are making a mistake disastrous to the future of this country. Many of us are absolutely convinced that they are making such a mistake, and it is monstrous that the whole House should be deprived of an opportunity of saying so and proving it.
8.57 p.m.
Mr. Henry Usborne: It is with a heavy heart and with great reluctance that I rise to make my speech tonight, for I must say at the outset that I have not yet been completely convinced that I ought to support the Government tonight. I have listened and thought as carefully as I possibly can on this subject, but I have not yet been sufficiently convinced. I wish to say, however, at this point that although I think I differ from the Government on this matter, it is not that I lack any confidence in the Government as a whole. I believe that time and again in very difficult circumstances they have been doing a truly magnificent job, but on this issue they are wrong.
I believe that the Lord President of the Council was correct when he indicated that we have reached a moment in history when Parliamentary democracy, as operated in the past, is facing a new task and a new difficulty and may have to be slightly altered to cope with the circumstances. It seems to me true that in recent years the civilisation of Western countries in particular has become, and is steadily becoming, more and more complex, and that automatically means

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that the burden on the legislature becomes continually greater and the systems which sufficed in the past to provide the legislation which the community wanted are not necessarily, without alteration, adequate to meet the strain, of modern times.
I realise that, because in the very nature of the circumstances I think civilisation here has reached a turning point, a climacteric, that it is quite evident that even more than before we face an urgent moment when new legislation must rapidly be passed through. At the same time, in order to meet the twin difficulties, we must remember that the thing we want to preserve is the Parliamentary democracy which has served us so adequately in the past. I am convinced that hon. Members on this side of the House take just as much pride in that as anyone on the other side of the House. [An HON. MEMBER: "More."] And perhaps more. But it is true that Parliamentary democracy is a delicate instrument which we all know can be distorted. Nevertheless, we all know that it now has to be slightly changed. The question is how best to change it to meet the circumstances of today without distorting it. That is the problem which presents itself to our minds. Obviously some of us answer the question in a different way from others.
The Lord President of the Council has, with reluctance, suggested that the Guillotine is the best method of which he can think at the moment to meet the circumstances. I am not sure whether it was he or the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) who indicated that the alternative which had to a certain extent been used in the past was to increase the burden on another place. There are certainly two alternatives, one to shorten, by the method of the Guillotine, the time taken in this House; the other is to increase the burden on another place.
Yet there seems to me to be perhaps even a third alternative, which I hope the House will forgive me for suggesting and will forgive me for believing in, because in the past I have been called a fanatical idealist, and in that sense it is probably true that I am. Owing to the changing development of civilisation, circumstances increase the burden on national legisla-
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tures, and at the same time are pushing mankind into the situation when he is realising that another legislature, I think a world or supra-national legislature, must come into being, which must take some of the burden from national legislatures. I know that that cannot be created overnight. Nevertheless, I believe that it will be created fairly soon, and that when it is created, it will take some of the burden off the national legislatures.
I am not convinced that the particular proposal we are discussing, which means that all the burden shall still be carried by Parliament as it is today—which as I see it involves the curtailment of adequate discussion—is the best or indeed the only method by which the problem can be solved. I, therefore, find myself in an appallingly difficult predicament. If I were the Government today, I honestly do not know exactly what I would suggest, but I do not believe that as an ordinary back bencher, I am necessarily obliged to know the answer to everything.
There are times, which must occur to many people, when one feels in a kind of instinctive way that something which is proposed is not quite right. I do not know what I would do to make it better. It may not be wrong; it may be, indeed it must be, that the Government know far more about it than I do. Even so, I simply wish to indicate that I cannot—and I am extremely sorry to say this—with my conscience as it is, bring myself to go into the Lobby and support this Motion tonight. Nor do I believe, feeling as I do about it, that I have any right merely to abstain. I must say, therefore, that unless I can hear, before the Division takes place, some more adequate reasons, I shall be compelled, for the reasons I have tried to explain, to vote against the Government.
There is one point I should like to have explained. Firstly, why is it so vitally necessary that 17th March shall be the date upon which the Committee stage is to be completed? [HON. MEMBERS: "It is St. Patrick's Day"].1 If that is the answer, I am still not adequately convinced that this Motion is necessary. Of course, that is not the reason. Why is 17th March the zero hour and deadline for the completion of the Committee stage of this Bill? Is it

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not possible, in the interests of endeavouring to preserve freedom of speech, to curtail some of the other activities? I do not know. I should like to hear more about the absolute necessity of keeping to that particular date line. If the Government can give me all the answers for which I am searching, as I sincerely hope they can, then between now and the moment when the House divides I hope I shall be able to change my mind.
9.5 p.m.
Sir Peter Bennett: I am sure that we all sympathise with the hon. Member for Acock's Green (Mr. Usborne) in the dilemma in which he finds himself. I must leave his decision to his own judgment and his own conscience. He will not expect me to follow him in the investigations, into which he endeavoured to lead us, towards the ideal for which he is seeking, and to which he has devoted so much of his time. I am sure that the House will not mind if I come back to the timetable, because I am very greatly concerned about it.
It is always interesting to listen to the Lord President and to speculate what he is really thinking in that subtle brain of his. When we remember what he said when he was on this side of the House and compare it with the line he takes on the other side—and perhaps wonder what would happen if a change brings him back on to this side—it is, as I say, a very interesting speculation. While he was speaking today my mind kept going back to an experience which I had with an old colleague. When I was endeavouring to put over some proposition to him, he would put his head on one side and say, "Are you trying to persuade me or are you trying to kid yourself? Because if you are not certain in your own mind, go away and think about it again." While the Lord President was speaking I was puzzling as to whether he really meant all that he said, or whether he was trying to convince himself.
He went through all that story of very interesting ancient history. But neither he nor I was there in the days of Mr. Gladstone or Lord Salisbury, and if we read about it, we find it was a very different House of Commons. Obstruction, calculated and deliberate, was part of the
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performance in those days. In the years I have been here I have seen nothing of that sort. It seems to me that the Lord President was rather stretching a point in trying to take us back to those days. But when he came to modern days and quoted the Transport Bill it seemed to me that he was proving that the time allotted to the Transport Bill was totally inadequate. Thinking of all that has been said on both sides, I feel very strongly that at the present moment we are at a turning-point in our national economy.
The Lord President said this Bill was a great measure of economic change. The whole of the Labour Press has been telling us this is a good industry. I feel that it is the first creative industry which has been tackled and threatened with nationalisation. The industries dealt with previously have been those which we might call services. There is a vast difference between creative industries and industries of the nature of services. I have heard hon. Members opposite say in the past, "We can run the mines without the owners." I have heard them suggest that they could run the railways without the management and the factories without the bosses. It may be quite true. But they presume the existence of the mine and the factory and the railway. I am always concerned with the people who created them and with the creation of the industries on which we exist. Today we are facing, with this Iron and Steel Bill, the fact that the first of our creative industries is being interfered with. I am gravely concerned about what might happen if we interfere with such industries, apart from running that which somebody else has made for us.
The Government are trying to bully us into accepting something which we ought to have more time to discuss. I remind hon. Members of the number of Clauses and Schedules that were not discussed in the Town and Country Planning Act and the Transport Act. Many Amendments were dropped without being discussed because they were never reached. When we come to consider the Iron and Steel Bill we shall have Clauses which are not discussed and Amendments which are never considered though they may be most vital. I should have thought that the Government would have wanted the nationalisation of iron and steel to succeed and

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that they would have wanted the best Act possible instead of one which is the best they could get in the shortest possible time. They are taking a grave risk. I ask the authorities not to blame us later on if things go wrong and I am sure that, in any case, they will go wrong. They will go wrong particularly in very vital places unless the greatest possible care is taken in threshing out the details of this Measure.
The Government are treating the nationalisation of the greatest of our basic industries in a casual way which we ordinary businessmen would never think of adopting. We should not use a short timetable. We should ensure that adequate time is given to such a major operation. Yet the Government propose to cut down the time to this very short period when dealing with an industry which is the lifeblood of the nation. It is a very bad thing to mix up politics and business. In this case, we are sacrificing the business to the politics, and it is because I believe that the Government are making a political decision instead of considering the real facts, that I shall oppose their Motion.
Mr. Perrins: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, may I say that I was most interested in his argument that it is a bad thing to mix politics and business? Would he care to give the House the advantage of his opinion on the appeal for funds made by Lord Woolton to manufacturers?
9.13 p.m.
Mr. Pargiter: One can readily understand the desire of the Opposition to oppose the use of the Guillotine in the case of this Measure or any other that they do not like. If they do not like a proposal, they want to talk about it for as long as they possibly can with a view to disrupting, if they can, the Parliamentary timetable in order that not only this Measure but some other Measures which equally they do not like, may cause difficulties for the Government. Hon. Members on both sides recognise that fact. It is right and logical that the Government, with a programme to get through, will be equally certain to take the measures that are open to them within the Constitution to see that they complete their business in time. I think that is the simple issue before us, in spite of all
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the verbosity on the question of the use of the Guillotine.
I confess that at times when I have been listening to certain hon. Members opposite—and perhaps even sometimes when I have listened to hon. Members on this side of the House—I have wished that the Guillotine operated rather more frequently. I consider that the kind of operation which takes place in many bodies where a person is restricted in the amount of time he is allowed to speak on a given subject, is a much more effective way of doing business than this method of filibustering, of repeating the same arguments over and over again, in order to obstruct business.
I believe the reason the Opposition do not like the Guillotine procedure on this and other Measures is because they want to talk, and talk, and to keep on talking in order to make it difficult for the Government to get these Measures through within their timetable. The Opposition know that before coming to power, the Government made promises to the electorate to put through certain legislation; the Government were elected on those promises, and as a democratic Government they owe it to the people to ensure that they are not obstructed in completing their programme. If that be true, then the method the Government are now adopting to get this Measure through is right and proper.
If hon. Members opposite really want to get down to brass tacks in Committee they will talk rather less on things which do not matter very much, confining their attention to improving the Bill, and not spending too long in discussing compensation Clauses. My experience of previous Bills has been that most of the discussion has been on the compensation Clauses, not on other and vitally important parts of the Bill. In the case of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, the Opposition were, apparently, fairly well satisfied with the terms of compensation, and that Measure was allowed to go through reasonably easily. Again, with the Bank of England, the compensation was evidently regarded as adequate, and there was, therefore, no need for lengthy discussion. But with transport and gas, and now iron and steel, when the shoe begins to pinch the Opposition and their friends, we find that they want to talk for a very long time; they want to post-

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pone coming to a conclusion, not necessarily because of opposition to the Bill as such, but very often because of opposition to a particular part of the Bill which they do not like.
What is the case put forward on the Iron and Steel Bill? It has been said that a constitutional issue is involved. That may be the opinion of one or two hon. Members, but it is certainly not mine. I cannot see that the constitutional issue here is any different from that involved in taking over those industries which have already been nationalised. I see no reason why this Measure should require any different procedure from that adopted with previous Measures. It is argued that 550 Members of this House will be deprived of the opportunity of taking part in the discussions. I have sat through many Debates and been deprived of an opportunity of taking part, simply because of the verbosity of hon. Members opposite. The Government are now taking steps to curb that verbosity, and from that discipline—[HON. MEMBERS: "Discipline?"] Perhaps the Opposition will permit me to finish my sentence—from that discipline they may learn to talk to the subject, and not continually to repeat arguments over and over again, of which we have had so much evidence in the life of this Parliament.
I believe that this procedure will serve a useful purpose, because within the timetable Members will have to talk objectively on the Bill—which will certainly be a change for many Members of the Opposition. That, I believe, will be of benefit to democracy. One of the things I have noticed here under the cloak of free speech has been a terrific waste of time. It seems to me it is time the country cannot afford. I welcome this Motion because it ensures that this Measure gets proper discussion, that Members opposite will be obliged to confine their arguments to the Bill, and that the Bill takes its appointed course and finds its way on the Statute Book in the lifetime of this Parliament.
9.21 p.m.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: It is a sobering thought for the House to realise that had there been a Guillotine Motion and this Question had had to be
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put at an earlier hour, we might have missed the extremely revealing speech we have just heard. That is something we on this side would have very much regretted, although whether the Lord President of the Council feels the same I am not at all sure. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Pargiter) was quite frank as to what he feels about Parliament The object of Parliament is to get Government business through. If that is so, it is a reasonable view which has been taken by many other people inside this country and outside. But why be content with such a modest Motion as this? Surely we should get more Government business through if, for instance, we did not have a Report stage, and we should get still more through if we did away with the Committee stage altogether.
Mr. Pargiter Mr. Pargiter rose——
Mr. Stanley: I cannot give way because the hon. Member took so long complaining about the length Members on this side spoke that he went several minutes over the time at which he had agreed to sit down. The most revealing sentence of all was—and perhaps he may know the inner mind of the Lord President of the Council; I do not mean what the Lord President of the Council says, because that has nothing to do with it, but what he is really thinking; and it may be that the Lord President does regard this Motion in the same light as the hon. Member—that this is a Measure to discipline the Opposition and to teach them that they are not to obstruct Government business. Of course, what the hon. Member means by obstructing Government business is disagreeing with anything the Government propose.
There is one thing on which I must express my gratitude to the Lord President of the Council, and that is for having followed his custom of previous occasions and got the Home Secretary to wind up. That is very wise on his part. The Lord President, if I may say so without any offence, is slightly suspect—perhaps he even slightly suspects himself—of having autocratic tendencies. He fights against them, and let me be fair, he sometimes succeeds in his fight. I think it is perfectly true to say now, that the Lord President of the Council genuinely believes in an occasional General Election, providing the right side wins, and in

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regular meetings of the Parliamentary Labour Party, provided they are both secret and submissive. But beyond that I think he is apt to regard the machinery of Parliament and the trappings of democracy, as being rather a handicap, rather an impediment to the real business of Ministers, which is to pour out a flood of orders, regulations and rules, unhampered by criticism or unimpeded by questions.
Of course, that is where the Home Secretary cones in. That is why it is wise of the Lord President always to put up the Home Secretary to reply when he himself moves a Motion of the kind we have before us today. The Lord President rightly regards the Home Secretary as being the exact opposite of himself. He sees him, as I do, as a mild, modest and moderate man. So tonight, once again, we are to have the Home Secretary, not as an argument, but as an exhibit. He is not there for us to listen to, but just to look at; indeed, I think he desires only a quarter of an hour in which to put all the full argument of his case. We intend to go into the Lobby tonight, after looking at the Home Secretary, and saying to ourselves, "Can we really believe that some one who looks like that would lend himself to the sort of action which the Government are taking?" That cloakroom respectability has worn a little bit thin now; it has been used a little too often in the past.
The Lord President, in moving the Motion, produced no argument but many precedents in its support. I was extremely interested in the list of precedents with which he had been supplied. They seemed to start very early but also, for some odd reason, stopped very early. We were taken back to 1888, when Lord Salisbury first used this game of the Guillotine. One would have thought that if there was any object at all in quoting those precedents it was not to quote the most archaic, but the most recent. I was surprised—and I make the Lord President a present of it in so far as it is an argument against ourselves—that he did not quote the most recent example of the Guillotine Motion introduced by the Conservative Government. That was the Motion they introduced in May, 1939, owing to the opposition by the Socialist Party to the National Ser-
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vice Bill. Against the precedents the right hon. Gentleman quoted there was this essential difference: in the first place this Measure was taken on the Floor of the House; second, the Guillotine was not introduced until definite and complete evidence of obstruction to that Bill had been given by the Opposition on the Floor of the House. The Motion was not introduced until 13 hours had been spent on discussion of the Financial Resolution.
When the Lord President talks about the indecent obstruction, and how he thinks that the time for all that has passed, I recommend him, before he goes to bed tonight, to read that Debate. I need not recommend the Home Secretary to read it, because I see he took part in that Debate. The interesting thing is to notice how in various successive years the Government's action in a matter of this kind has deteriorated. There has been a Rake's Progress. We had the Coal Industry (Nationalisation) Bill, the first of the really important and controversial nationalisation Measures, when the Bill went through this House without any Guillotine Motion at all.
Mr. Pargiter: Because the compensation was fair.
Mr. Stanley: The hon. Member thinks it frightfully odd that the Opposition should desire to speak when they think that compensation is unjust and do not desire to do so so long as they think it is fair. The curious thing is that that is what Members of Parliament are sent here for—to talk whenever they think something is unjust and not to talk quite so much when they think something is fair. After the Coal Industry (Nationalisation) Bill, where there was no Guillotine, we came to the Transport Bill, where there was a Guillotine; but it was not introduced at any rate until after some experience of the Committee stage and until it was possible to make some estimate of what the course of Business was likely to be.
Now we come to this, the third major Measure, the Iron and Steel Bill, where for the first time, despite the very interesting evidence given by Mr. Speaker and quoted in a remarkable speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton)—indeed in direct contradiction to Mr.

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Speaker's advice and evidence—this Guillotine Motion, for the first time, is proposed without any experience whatsoever of the Committee stage of the Bill. These, then, are the progressive stages of deterioration—from no Guillotine to a Guillotine only after the Committee stage had begun, and now a Guillotine before the Committee stage starts. I tremble to think of the next step. The only consolation is that this is the last major Bill which right hon. Gentlemen opposite will have the opportunity of introducing.
In order to justify this continual turning of the screw, it seems to me that the Government have got to prove one of two things. They have either got to show that the result of applying the Guillotine procedure to the Transport Bill and Town and Country Planning Bill was so satisfactory that that is a precedent which they should naturally have followed at once, or they have got to prove that this Iron and Steel Bill is very much less complicated or much less important, involving such issues that we can afford to give them less generous treatment than was afforded to either of the other two Bills.
I do not think there is anybody on the other side who could sustain for a moment the argument that, in fact, the Guillotine procedure in the case of the Transport Bill or the Town and Country Planning Bill worked out well. My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) gave actual facts of what happened during the passage of those Bills. In the Transport Bill 230 Amendments were found necessary in another place and in the Town and Country Planning Bill 336 Amendments were found necessary in another place. Nobody is really going to argue that the procedure in this House can have been satisfactory in a case which left something like 600 Amendments to be made to those two Bills in another place. I defy the right hon. Gentleman, if he searches legislative records of prewar days, ever to find a case in which a Bill going from the House of Commons had to receive Amendment on that scale in the Lords. It is because of the inadequate time given here that this extra work is needed in the Lords.
The right hon. Gentleman puts on that sanctimonious—[An HON. MEMBER:
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"Face."]—no, that is always there, a sanctimonious air and says that he is doing this for the poor people in another place, just to suit their convenience. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman how best to suite their convenience. It is to take enough time in this House to send Bills up to them which do not require 300 Amendments in order to make them acceptable. Nor would the right hon. Gentleman argue for one moment the other side of the case that the Iron and Steel Bill is, in some way less important or less difficult than the other Measures to which reference has been made. It has indeed been the contention of nearly everyone who has spoken from the Benches opposite during the Second Reading that the Iron and Steel Bill was the most important legislative act of the whole Parliament, that it was not merely one bit of economic reorganisation and not just an alteration of the industrial machinery in one branch of industry, but that it was an economic and political revolution which went far beyond the confines of the industry itself.
We heard the quotation from the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) which showed that it is the general view of Members opposite, that the Bill is, in fact the deciding Bill which will make England a Socialist England. In view of that evidence, how can the right hon. Gentleman argue that the Bill is unimportant or that it is uncomplicated? Reference has been made to the 107 firms. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will admit that the reason this Bill differs from any other Bill is that these firms are brought into the operation of the Bill and that their names are in the Schedule, whereas in other Bills only broad categories were included. By that device it has been possible to avoid the Hybrid Bill procedure. One would think that that made it all the more important that ample time should be given to seeing that the position of those firms was properly considered.
No other argument has been advanced during the whole evening for this Motion except perhaps "Look at the Gas Bill." My right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) must be feeling very flattered at the alarm that he has created in hon. Members opposite that they have no shelter whatsoever against the fluency and fertility of his

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tongue. On a Motion such as this, even when hon. Members talk about the Gas Bill, they must remember certain facts. The first is that whatever may have been the accounts of obstruction, the Government got their Bill, and without the Guillotine, and even though the Second Reading was not taken until the middle of February. Here we are discussing a Bill the Second Reading of which was taken at the beginning of November.
The second thing to remember is that it would have been open to them at any time during the conduct of that Bill to come down here with a Motion for a Guillotine if they had been really convinced of its necessity and of obstruction going on. They never did that. We should then have been able to argue what was the cause for the slow progress. Hon. Members opposite, some of whom have not yet been in Opposition, will learn that, although it is quite easy to generalise about it and make it look absurd and antiquated, obstruction is sometimes the only defence which an Opposition possesses. If it is found that a Minister, as Ministers with large majorities behind them do, fails either in courtesy or efficiency, brushes aside queries and neglects criticism, the only weapon which an Opposition can bring to bear is to make that Minister's life more difficult and his work more prolonged and, finally, through this method, to bring to the House, the Leader of the House, the Chief Whip and the country the realisation that some changes are required.
Mr. Tiffany: What about the Gas Bill?
Mr. Stanley: On the Gas Bill. I think it is an absolute insult to the Minister of Supply to assume in advance that he would be no more capable of managing the Committee upstairs on this Bill than the Minister of Fuel and Power was the Committee on the Gas Bill. The Lord President is probably right, but it would have been more courteous to try it out first. The most interesting sentence used in the whole of this Debate was used by the hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Proctor). He said that ample time is given under this Motion for the Opposition to make their case against the Bill. That seems to display a total misconception of the rôle of this House in Committee and on Report stage. It is quite
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true that if all that had to be done now was to make the case against the Bill, that could be done easily within the limits set by this Motion. In fact, it was done.
Mr. Proctor Mr. Proctor rose——
Mr. Stanley: I have only two minutes more. I shall have to take more time if I give way.
Mr. Proctor: Will the right hon. Gentleman refer to the rest of my speech in which I said that the Government could also make the case?
Mr. Stanley: I do not think the hon. Gentleman denies using that sentence. It is important because it is not a question of a Second Reading Debate. If that were all, we should have no complaint against this Motion, but the Committee and Report stages should mean more than that. They should mean not merely making a general case against a Bill, but criticising, altering, and making suggestions on various details; and that really cannot be done in the time allotted.
Frankly, I intensely dislike the Guillotine procedure in any circumstances. In various offices before the war I happen to have had a great deal of experience in Committees upstairs. Some of the Bills we took were controversial and some were non-controversial, but I learned that it was quite impossible for anyone, however well he knew the Bill, to lay down beforehand how the discussion upon that Bill in Committee was likely to go and how long it would take or what time should be allocated to each part. Invariably it was found that some point which one thought comparatively unimportant aroused great interest in the Committee. Invariably one found that there were some things brought in which one had not expected. I do not believe it is possible for any committee of people, however willing, however able and however honest, to allocate time in a way which prevents things that ought to be discussed from being left out and -sometimes things which need not be discussed from being given ample time.
I can only conclude by re-echoing the protest of my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington against this Motion. I believe its result will be to make abortive the proper

1535
discussion of the most important Bill of the Session; probably to make that Bill leave this House less adequate than otherwise it would be. Beyond that, I believe that this continually increasing turn of the screw will, in the end, lead to the complete destruction of the functions of the House as anything more than a body of people, called upon to register broad decisions, aye or nay, on Government Measures which are put before them.
9.46 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I have listened to the majority of the speeches that have been delivered in the course of this Debate, and I think we can say that in view of the strong feelings that this Motion has aroused the Debate has been conducted in the best of tempers and that the points of view of both sides of the House have been put forward with clarity and with the force which shows how strong feelings are.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and the noble Lord the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) both made what is really a false point with regard to the Report stage of the Measure. They seemed to think that there was something wrong in including in the Report stage allocation, the period that may be spent on recommittal of the Bill when we commence the Report stage. After all, recommittal is caused by the financial procedure of the House, which forbids any amendment that involves a charge, either on the Exchequer or the rates, being moved on the technical Report stage. Therefore, in order to avoid that difficulty, the Bill is recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House, the Whole House considers these financial Amendments, and the procedure, except that the Chairman of Ways and Means is in the Chair, is exactly the same as when the House comes back, the mace is lifted on to the table, and Mr. Speaker resumes his seat. If the argument is that there ought to have been five days instead of four, that is only part of the case which the Opposition makes that the allocation of time is not sufficient, but I do not think it is fair to suggest that there is some sinister purpose in including the recommittal stage in that period.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: It cuts the time by half.
Mr. Ede: Therefore I do not think that argument can have any weight other than that the Opposition feel that the time allocated is insufficient.
I thought, if I may say so, that, as is not unusual on these occasions, the speech of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) really posed the point of principle that divides the House on the Motion before us. I am bound to say, however, that I thought he pitched the claims of an Opposition a little too high. He said it was the right of the minority to govern the time of the House.
Mr. Hogg: I did not say that.
Mr. Ede: That was the note I made of the hon. Gentleman's speech at the time he was making it.
Mr. Hogg: That was not what I said.
Mr. Ede: The claim he was putting forward was, after all, disposed of on the morning in 1882 when for the first time Debate was interrupted after the Irish Members had kept the House sitting and had made it quite clear that no Government business was going to be done. From that time to this, the growing needs of Parliament have compelled at successive stages fresh curtailments to be placed on the complete liberty of Debate that existed prior to that time.
Mr. Hogg: I know that the right hon. Gentleman is trying to represent what I said correctly, but I think he will find that what I said were two things and not what he imputed to me. First, I said that a timetable ought not to be imposed except as the result of some definite piece of misconduct on the part of one section of the House. Secondly, I said that once the day came when the Government could say in advance that a particular piece of business would go through, whatever anyone did, then this was no longer a free House. I do not deny, of course, that the general control of time, by general agreement, rests with the Government of the day.
Mr. Ede: It is true that the hon. Gentleman did say the two things he has just mentioned. As he said, it was a quotation from himself in an earlier speech.

1537
The Government dislike the Guillotine procedure—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—just as much as the Opposition and I do not think that the last sentence just uttered by the hon. Gentleman finds us very far apart. We think that in these matters it is desirable that there shall be a voluntary arrangement of time, that the Opposition and the Government together should consider the appropriate amount of time to be devoted to a Measure, and that then, from the first part of the discussion, there should be a voluntary arrangement by which the time is shared. Within that more flexible instrument, a great many disadvantages of the Guillotine procedure can be avoided.
I was one of the Members who was responsible for the voluntary timetable on the Education Bill. On no day did we actually carry through the programme we had allotted to the day. Some days we went rather slower, other days we went faster, but in the end we just managed to comply with the arrangement that had been voluntarily entered into. I believe that that is the way in which, with the ever-increasing business of the House, this matter of the allocation of time should be arranged, and it was a matter of regret to the Government that when, as the right hon. Gentleman said at the commencement of his speech, we approached the Opposition with a suggestion of a voluntary timetable, we met with a blank refusal.
Mr. Eden: I want to be quite clear with the right hon. Gentleman. How does he suggest that a time limit which was only half adequate for the Transport Act and the Town and Country Planning Act could be an adequate timetable for this Measure?
Mr. Ede: The remarkable thing was that the Electricity Act, on which there was a voluntary timetable, took only 25 days, which, I think, is a striking example of the way in which a voluntary arrangement enables both sides, with reasonable give and take, to get through the business associated with such Measures.
Mr. Eden: I do not want to keep interrupting the right hon. Gentleman and time is running short, but I must say this: We were never offered a voluntary arrangement. We were told that 17th
1538
March was the date and were asked to discuss what we would do up to that date. That is not an arrangement: it is dictation.
Mr. Ede: I should have thought that if the right hon. Gentleman thought 17th March did not give him sufficient time, he could have said so—[HON. MEMBERS: "We are saying so."]—and it might have been possible to discover whether it would be feasible to arrange for something which would be more acceptable. The fact of the matter is that for months the Opposition have been saying that what happened on the Gas Bill was child's play to what was going to happen on this Bill——
Mr. Stanley: Who said that?
Mr. Ede: It has been common talk. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Therefore, the Government were faced with the position of whether we were to repeat what happened on the Transport Bill. When we came to the end of Clause 4 of the Transport Bill it was discovered that at the same rate of progress it would have taken two and a half years to get the Bill through Committee. Undoubtedly some of the difficulties in regard to the Transport Bill and the Town and Country Planning Bill arose from the fact that the Guillotine was proposed after too long a time had been spent on the earlier Clauses of the Bill, with the result that the difficulties that were mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman arose when we tried to apply the Guillotine to the later stages of the Bill.
It is no use the noble Lord the Member for South Dorset suggesting that the decline and fall of the British Empire began through Lord Salisbury's Government applying the Guillotine in the year of Queen Victoria's first Jubilee. The danger to democracy is not that there will be too short a time spent on the preparation and discussion of Measures that are essential. If there is anything to learn from the history of the past few years, it is that where, owing to one cause or another, excessive discussion has brought Parliament into disrepute, Parliamentary democracy has suffered its most severe defeats. Therefore we still hope that within the limits which will be imposed by this Motion—to which the Opposition have not put down any Amendments ex-

1539
tending the number of days at any stage of the Bill—it is possible for the Business sub-committee in the Committee upstairs and the Report stage in this House to make arrangements whereby all the essential parts of the Bill can be discussed. We believe that is possible, and
therefore we ask the House to pass the Motion.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes 319; Noes. 195.

Division No. 17.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Acland, Sir Richard

Donovan, T.

Johnston, Douglas

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Driberg, T. E N

Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

Adams, W. T (Hammersmith, South)

Dugdale, J (W. Bromwich)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Albu, A. H.

Dumpleton, C. W

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

Dye, S

Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

Allen, A. C (Bosworth)

Ede, Rt. Hon J. C.

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Edelman, M

Keenan, W.

Alpass, J. H.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Kenyon, C

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Edwards, Rt Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

Key, Rt. Hon C W

Attewell, H C.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

King, E. M.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C R

Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E.

Awbery, S. S

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Kirby, B. V.

Ayles, W. H.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D

Bacon, Miss A

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Lang, G.

Baird, J

Ewart, R.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

Fairhurst, F

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Barstow, P. G.

Fernyhough, E.

Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

Barton, C.

Field, Capt W. J

Leslie, J. R

Batlley, J. R.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Lever, N. H.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Follick, M.

Levy, B. W

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F J

Foot, M. M

Lewis, A. W J (Upton)

Benson, G.

Forman, J C.

Lewis, J. (Bolton)

Berry, H.

Fraser, T (Hamilton)

Lipton, Lt.-Col M.

Beswick, F.

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Logan, D. G.

Binns, J.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

Longden, F.

Blackburn, A. R.

Ganley, Mrs C. S.

Lyne, A. W.

Blyton, W. R.

Gibbins, J.

McAdam, W.

Boardman, H.

Gibson, C. W

McAllister, G.

Bottomley, A. G.

Gilzean, A.

McEnt e, V. La T.

Bowden, Flg Offr. H. W.

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

McGhee, H G.

Braddock, Mrs E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

Greenwood, Rt Hon. A. (Wakefield)

Mack, J D.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Greenwood A. W. J (Heywood)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Bramall, E. A.

Grenfell, D. R

Mackay, R W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Grey, C F

McLeavy, F.

Brooks, T J. (Rothwell)

Grierson, E.

MacMillan, M K. (Western Isles)

Brown, George (Belper)

Griffiths, D (Rother Valley)

MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

Brown, T J. (Ince)

Griffiths, Rt Hon J. (Llanelly)

Macpherson, T (Romford)

Bruce, Maj D. W. T

Griffiths, W. D (Moss Side)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Burden, T. W.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Burke, W. A.

Gunter, R. J.

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Guy, W. H.

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Callaghan, James

Haire, John E (Wycombe)

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Castle, Mrs B. A

Hale, Leslie

Marquand, H. A.

Chamberlain, R A

Hamilton, Lieut -Col. R

Marshall, F (Brightside)

Champion, A. J.

Hardy, E. A.

Mayhew, C. P.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Harrison, J

Mellish, R. J.

Cobb, F. A.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Messer, F.

Cocks, F. S

Henderson, Rt Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

Middleton, Mrs. L

Coldrick, W.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Mikardo, Ian

Collick, P.

Herbison, Miss M.

Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R

Collindridge, F.

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Mitchison, G. R

Collins, V. J.

Hicks, G

Moo y A S.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Hobson, C. R.

Morgan, Dr. H B.

Comyns, Dr. L.

Holman, P.

Morley, R.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Horabin, T. L.

Morrison, Rt. Hon H. (Lewisham, E.)

Cove, W. G.

Hoy, J.

Mort, D. L.

Cripps, Rt. Hon Sir S.

Hudson, J. H. (Eating, W.)

Moyle, A.

Cullen, Mrs. A

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

Murray J D

Daggar, G.

Hughes, H. D. (W'Iverh'pton, W.)

Nally, W.

Daines, P.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Naylor, T. E.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Neal, H. (Clay Cross)

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Irvine, A. J (Liverpool)

Nichol, Mrs. M E. (Bradford, N.)

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Nicholls, H. R (Stratford)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Isaacs, Rt Hon. G. A.

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Deer, G.

Janner, B.

Noel'Baker, Rt Hon. P. J. (Derby)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Jay, D. P T.

O'Brien, T.

Diamond, J.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Oliver, G. H.

Dobbie, W.

Jeger, Dr S. W. (St Pancras, S.E.)

Orbach, M.

Dodds, N. N.

Jenkins, R H.

Paget, R T

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Shackleton, E. A. A

Tolley, L.

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Sharp, Granville

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Palmer, A. M. F

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Turner-Samuels, M

Pargiter, G. A.

Shawcross, Rt. Hn Sir H. (St Helens)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Parker, J.

Shurmer, P

Vernon, Maj W. F.

Parkin, B. T.

Silkin, Rt. Hon L.

Walker, G. H.

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Silverman, J (Erdington)

Wallace, H W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Simmons, C J.

Warbey, W. N.

Pearson, A.

Skeffington, A. M.

Watkins, T. E

Peart, T, F

Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

Watson, W. M

Perrins, W.

Skinnard, F. W

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Piratin, P.

Smith, C. (Colchester)

Weitzman, D.

Popplewell, E.

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Wells, W. T (Walsall)

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

West, D. G.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Smith, S H. (Hull, S. W.)

Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

Pritt, D. N.

Solley, L. J

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Proctor, W T.

Sparks, J A

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Pursey, Comdr. H

Steele, T.

Wilcock, Group-Capt C A.

Randall, H E

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Wilkins, W A

Ranger, J.

Stokes, R. R.

Willey, F T. (Sunderland)

Rankin, J.

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J

Willey, O. G (Cleveland)

Rees-Williams, D. R

Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Lambeth)

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Reeves, J.

Stubbs, A. E

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Swingler, S.

Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

Rhodes, H.

Sylvester, G. O.

Williams, W R. (Heston)

Richards, R.

Symonds, A. L.

Willis, E.

Ridealgh, Mrs. M

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Robens, A.

Taylor, R J. (Morpeth)

Wise, Major F. J.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Thomas, D E. (Aberdare)

Woods, G. S.

Rogers, G. H. R.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Wyatt, W.

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Thomas, I. O (Wrekin)

Yates, V. F.

Royle, C.

Thomas, John R (Dover)

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Sargood, R.

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Scollan, T.

Thurtle, Ernest

Zilliacus, K

Scott-Elliott, W

Tiffany, S.

Segal, Dr. S.

Titterington, M F

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mr. Snow and Mr. G. Wallace.

NOES

Agnew, Cmdr. P G

Duthie, W. S.

Kerr, Sir J. Graham

Aitken, Hon. Max

Eccles, D. M.

Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H

Astor, Hon M.

Eden, Rt. Hon A

Lambert, Hon. G.

Baldwin, A. E.

Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt Hon Walter

Lancaster, Col. C. G

Barlow, Sir J.

Erroll, F J.

Langford-Holt, J.

Baxter, A. B.

Fleming, Sqn -Ldr. E. L

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Fletcher, W (Bury)

Lennox-Boyd, A. T

Beechman, N. A.

Foster, J. G (Northwich)

Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

Bennett, Sir P.

Fox, Sir G.

Linstead, H. N.

Birch, Nigel

Fraser H. C. P. (Stone)

Lloyd, Maj Guy (Renfrew, E)

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Boothby, R.

Fyfe, Rt. Hon Sir D. P. M

Low, A. R. W

Bossom, A. C

Gage, C.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Bower, N.

Galbraith, Cmdr. T D

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Gammans, L, D.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O

Bracken, Rt, Hon. Brendan

Gates, Maj. E. E

McCallum, Maj. D.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr, J. G

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

Glyn, Sir R.

Macdonald, Sir P (I. of Wight)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

McFarlane, C. S.

Butcher, H. W.

Granville, E (Eye)

Mackeson, Brig H. R

Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Grimston, R V

McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

Byers, Frank

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Maclay, Hon. J. S.

Carson, E.

Harden, J. R. E

Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Challen, C.

Hare, Hon. J. H, (Woodbridge)

Macpherson, N (Dumfries)

Channon, H.

Harris, F W. (Croydon, N.)

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V

Manningham-Buller, R. E

Clarke, Col R. S.

Haughton, S. G.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

Marples, A. E.

Cole, T. L.

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Marsden, Capt. A.

Conant, Maj. R. J. E

Herbert, Sir A. P.

Marshall, D (Bodmin)

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Corbett, Lieut.-Col, U. (Ludlow)

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Maude, J. C

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Hollis, M. C.

Medlicott, Brigadier F

Crowder, Capt. John E.

Holmes, Sir J Stanley (Harwich)

Mellor, Sir J.

Davies, Rt Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

Howard, Hon. A.

Molson, A. H. E.

De la Bere, R

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Moore, Lt.-Col Sir T.

Digby, S. W.

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Hurd, A.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Donner, P. W.

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W S. (Cir'cester)

Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Jarvis, Sir J.

Mott-Radclyffe, C E.

Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

Jeffreys, General Sir G

Neill, W. F. (Belfast, N.)

Drayson, G. B.

Jennings, R.

Neven-Spence, Sir B.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Nicholson, G.

Duncan, Rt. Hn, Sir A. (City of Lond.)

Keeling, E. H.

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

1542

1543

Odey, G. W.

Savory, Prof. D L

Touche, G. C.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Scott, Lord W.

Turton, R. H.

Peake, Rt Hon. O.

Shephard, S. (Newark)

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Peto, Brig. C. H. M

Shepherd, W S (Bucklow)

Usborne, Henry

Pitman, I. J

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Vane, W. M. F.

Ponsonby, Col C. E.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Wakefield, Sir W. W.

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Smithers, Sir W

Walker-Smith, D.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Spence, H R.

Ward, Hon G R

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Raikes, H. V

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife E.)

Webbe, Sir H (Abbey)

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Stoddart-Scott, Col M

Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Rayner, Brig. R.

Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Read, Sir S (Aylesbury)

Stuart, Rt Hon. J (Moray)

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Renton, D.

Studholme, H. G.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Sutcliffe, H.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Roberts, H (Handsworth)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Roberts, P G (Ecclesall)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, s.)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Robertson, Sir D (Streatham)

Teeling, William

York, C.

Ropner, Col. L.

Thomas, Ivor (Keigley)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Ross, Sir R D. (Londonderry)

Thomas, J. p L. (Hereford)

Salter, Rt Hon Sir J A

Thorneycroft, G E. P. (Monmouth)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Sanderson, Sir F.

Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and Mr. Drewe.

Question put, and agreed to.

Main Question put, and agreed

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CIVIL DEFENCE [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 23rd November.]
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]
  Question again proposed,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for Civil Defence, it is expedient to authorise—

  (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

  (i) of any expenses incurred by any Minister in discharging functions exercise-able by him under or by virtue of that
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  Act, including any sums required for paying grants or compensation; and

  (ii) of any increase resulting from any of the provisions of the said Act in the sums which, under Part I or Part II of the Local Government Act, 1948, fall to be paid out of moneys so provided;

  (b) the payment into the Exchequer of any sums received under or by virtue of the said Act of the present Session by any Minister."

  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Fourteen Minutes past Ten o'Clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Textile Production Campaign, Darwen
  Textile Production Campaign, Darwen
  Raw Cotton (U.S.S.R.)
  Raw Cotton (U.S.S.R.)
  FACTORY, KENNINGTON (SMOKE NUISANCE)
  FACTORY, KENNINGTON (SMOKE NUISANCE)
CIVIL SERVICE
  Office Cleaners and Messengers (Pay)
  Office Cleaners and Messengers (Pay)
  Departments (Staff)
  Departments (Staff)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Defence Expenditure
  Defence Expenditure
  Appropriation and Trading Accounts
  Appropriation and Trading Accounts
  Tax Arrears
  Tax Arrears
  Savings Committee (Expenses)
  Savings Committee (Expenses)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Knackers' Yards (Licences)
  Knackers' Yards (Licences)
  Therapeutic Substances (Animals)
  Therapeutic Substances (Animals)
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Doctors, Birmingham
  Doctors, Birmingham
  School Clinics (Medicines and Drugs)
  School Clinics (Medicines and Drugs)
  Hospitals (X-Ray Equipment)
  Hospitals (X-Ray Equipment)
  Royal Eye Hospital, Southwark
  Royal Eye Hospital, Southwark
  Administrative Officers (Salaries)
  Administrative Officers (Salaries)
  Special Obstetric Lists
  Special Obstetric Lists
  Dental Estimates Board (Dismissals)
  Dental Estimates Board (Dismissals)
  Tuberculosis (Waiting Lists)
  Tuberculosis (Waiting Lists)
  Hearing Aids
  Hearing Aids
HOUSING
  Colchester
  Colchester
  Mining Areas
  Mining Areas
  Requisitioning Powers (Circulars)
  Requisitioning Powers (Circulars)
  Firegrates and Stoves
  Firegrates and Stoves
  War Damage Repairs (By-Laws)
  War Damage Repairs (By-Laws)
  Requisitioned Properties
  Requisitioned Properties
  ENBORNE VALLEY RESERVOIR SCHEME
  ENBORNE VALLEY RESERVOIR SCHEME
EDUCATION
  Punishment, Twyford
  Punishment, Twyford
  Exchange Teachers, Canada
  Exchange Teachers, Canada
  Examinations
  Examinations
  School Dental Service
  School Dental Service
  Teachers' Training Scheme (Advertisements)
  Teachers' Training Scheme (Advertisements)
  UNEMPLOYMENT (STATISTICS)
  UNEMPLOYMENT (STATISTICS)
  SCOTLAND (KNOYDART PENINSULA)
  SCOTLAND (KNOYDART PENINSULA)
  GERMANY (PASTOR KÜHN)
  GERMANY (PASTOR KÜHN)
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  EIRE
  4.6 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, I think it would be your Lordships' desire that I should make a statement on Eire, especially as such a statement is being made by the Prime Minister in another place at the present moment.
  In 1937 a new Constitution was enacted in Eire, in which no reference was made to the Crown. This, however, left in force the Eire Executive Authority (External Relations) Act of 1936, which authorised His Majesty The King to act on behalf of Eire in certain matters within the field of external affairs as and when advised by the Eire Executive Council to do so. In December, 1937, the United Kingdom Government stated, after consultation with the Governments of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, that they, like those Governments, were prepared to treat the new Constitution as not effecting a fundamental alteration in the position of Eire as a member of the Commonwealth.
  On September 7 last the Prime Minister of Eire, Mr. Costello, announced that the Eire Government were preparing to repeal the External Relations Act. Subsequently, Mr. Costello confirmed this intention.
  As the House is aware, my right honourable friend took advantage of the presence in London during October of other Commonwealth Ministers to arrange on October 17 for preliminary discussions with Eire Ministers in order to explore the consequences which would flow from the Legislation proposed in Eire. Representatives of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, in which there are particularly large numbers of people of Irish ancestry, participated in these discussions.
  Since then, the matter has been under constant examination here. When the
  620
  Eire Government announced that their Repeal Bill (to be entitled the "Republic of Ireland Bill") would be introduced on November 17, my right honourable friend thought it right that the situation should be further discussed with members of the Eire Government and with the Prime Minister of New Zealand, the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia and the Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs, all of whom were in Paris for the meeting of the General Assembly of the United Nations. Discussions took place accordingly in Paris last week. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my warm appreciation of the constructive part played by Mr. St. Laurent, Mr. Fraser, Dr. Evatt and Mr. Pearson in the preliminary discussions. My right honourable friend has also discussed this matter personally with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland and informed him fully of the position.
  As a result of these discussions, the United Kingdom Government have been able to give the most careful consideration to the relations between the United Kingdom and Eire when the Republic of Ireland Bill comes into force. They regret that Eire will then no longer be a member of the Commonwealth. The Eire Government have, however, stated that they recognise the existence of a specially close relationship between Eire and the Commonwealth countries and desire that this relationship should be maintained. These close relations arise from ties of kinship and from traditional and long-established economic, social and trade connections based on common interest. The United Kingdom Government, for their part, also recognise the existence of these factual ties, and are at one with the Eire Government in desiring that close and friendly relations should continue and be strengthened.
  Accordingly, the United Kingdom Government will not regard the enactment of this legislation by Eire as placing Eire in the category of foreign countries or Eire citizens in the category of foreigners. The other Governments of the Commonwealth will, we understand, take an early opportunity of stating their policy in the matter.
  The position of Eire citizens in the United Kingdom will be governed by the British Nationality Act, 1948. The Eire Government have stated that it is their

  621
  intention to bring their legislation into line with that in Commonwealth countries so as to establish by Statute that, in Eire, citizens of Commonwealth countries receive comparable treatment.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the statement which has just been made by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, is clearly of fundamental importance, both from the facts which it exposes and the implications to which it gives rise. It will require very careful study from us all. But I would say at once, and I believe I speak for all those who sit on these Benches, that I am profoundly disturbed by the nature of the settlement which has been reached. The Crown is not only the symbol, it is the essence of the family relationship which constitutes the British Commonwealth. Eire has repudiated her allegiance to the Crown. Of her own free will she has destroyed that family relationship. She has, of course, a perfect right to do this if she wishes, but I cannot see why, in these circumstances, she should retain all the advantages of membership. I consider it, indeed, deplorable that she should do so. I believe that this settlement will inflict a profound injury upon the whole structure of the Commonwealth and I am bound, even at this stage, to dissociate those for whom I speak entirely from it.

BROUGH ELLOUGHTON AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1948 STOKE-ON-TRENT GAS ORDER, 1948 WELLINGTON (SALOP) GAS ORDER, 1948
4.9 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Orders, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Orders, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Chorley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COAST PROTECTION BILL. [H.L.]
4.10 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in January, 1947, the Prime Minister responded to a question in another place, and replied in the following terms:
"His Majesty's Government have decided that the general responsibility for dealing with problems of coast protection shall rest with my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Health. My right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries will, however, retain jurisdiction in regard to works on low-lying lands carried out by land drainage authorities in England and Wales. Legislation will be introduced as soon as Parliamentary time permits to increase the powers and duties of county borough and county district councils … in regard to coast protection, …"
It is, I think, a matter for gratification that in a world where the conditions are what they are at present, and when the Government and Parliament are occupied with so many matters of great importance, time should be found in the Fourth Session of this Parliament to deal with this matter. We sincerely trust that we shall receive from all parts of the House, not merely a welcome for the Bill but co-operation in putting, it through as early as may be.
One could talk of a great number of things which would provide a reason for Government action in coast protection, but I think it would be wrong to-day to attempt anything in the nature of a prolonged survey. There are, however, a number of items which it would be well for us to remember, because they provide the reasons for some of the important clauses in the Bill itself. First, in these days especially, very heavy engineering work has to be undertaken, involving on occasions long stretches of coast line, many owners and several local authorities. Work done at one part may affect the coast some distance away, and the shingle, which, generally speaking, is a good coast protection, may be affected by offshore tides which put it somewhere entirely different. Adequate works are, therefore, necessary—works which are, on occasion, far beyond the powers of private persons and, indeed, beyond the powers of some local authorities. It can be said that if work is undertaken on a scale less than is necessary, the conditions after the work has been completed may

623
be even more dangerous than before it was begun.
As the law stands at present, local authorities can act only for the protection of their own property. They cannot insist on a contribution from private interests towards the costs that are involved, nor do they possess the necessary powers to control the work of private citizens in the interests of general arrangements and organisation. This Bill, recognising all those points, in the first place, therefore, establishes new coastal protection authorities. If this Bill goes through, maritime county boroughs and the county committees of county councils will, in future, become the responsible bodies for looking after the coasts in their respective areas. It may be necessary from time to time to bring a number of these local authorities into one board, because it may frequently occur that works are to be undertaken covering the areas of a number of them.
The Bill, therefore, proposes that in addition to the bodies I have named there shall, where necessary, be established coast protection boards. They will, in the first place, cover the borough councils and the district councils involved, but they may include any of the following: any sea defence commissioners, river board, drainage authority, harbour authority, fishery board, local fishering committees, any highway authority responsible for the maintenance of any highway likely to be affected, the British Transport Commission, and any other body or person having interests or responsibilities therein. The Minister will have the necessary power, when these boards are established, to lay down the representation of the constituent authorities on the board; to provide for the incorporation of the board so that they can own land; to authorise the board to defray or contribute to the expenses, of carrying out coast protection, and to make provision for the raising by borrowing or otherwise of any money required for the board. Apart from the board, however, one or more coast protection authorities can, by their own arrangements, form joint committees, and, if such committees are appointed, the authorities can depute to them such of their own powers as they desire.
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I would point out that the boards, if they are formed at all, will be in England and Wales; in Scotland no boards will be established. The Scottish authorities, if they want joint action, will depend on the establishment of joint committees. In addition to the joint committees, if the authorities desire a somewhat looser form of joint organisation, they can establish advisory committees for the purpose of receiving from them all the help and co-operation that may be possible.
I want to say three things about the powers of the new authorities: first of all regarding the general powers of these coast protection boards or the powers which can be operated and exercised without special permission, after consultation with any interests which may be involved. Under those powers, it will be possible for one of the boards, or joint committees, to do coastal work in or outside their own area if the land in their own area needs protection. They may be able to acquire land for any purpose suitable to their work, and they can acquire that land either by purchase, by lease or by exchange. Under powers of this kind, the boards and the authorities will have no compulsory right to override restrictive covenants, to do work on private land or to levy contributions. They must proceed, as it seems to me, by agreement. Those who feel dissatisfied with the work it is proposed to do will have the necessary opportunity of objecting, of having their cases listened to and, finally, of bringing in the Minister if necessary to decide the issue. But the boards, or the authorities, although under this clause they must proceed generally by way of agreement, can, in moments of emergency, act rapidly and without having secured the necessary agreement to begin with.
Under Clause 6 of the Bill, an authority or a board may draw up a scheme for confirmation by the Minister, in order to obtain, first of all, the compulsory powers that may be necessary from time to time, and, secondly, to enable them to impose a coast protection charge on the owners of land where it can be proved that the land has benefited by or will benefit by the work performed. I ought to add that, should the operations of one of these bodies bring about a deterioration in the value of the land, it is later on provided that

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the owners may have the right to claim compensation. Here, as in the case of the former clause which I have mentioned, there is a long procedure which will enable those interested in land adjoining the coasts to make their objections, have them attended to and receive, if they believe they have been unjustly treated, the just treatment to which they are entitled.
So far as the charges are concerned, when the scheme is first proposed it must indicate the land which is likely to be affected by such charges. When they are imposed, the charges are not to exceed the difference in the values before and after the operations. There must be notice to the owner of the intent, and the owner may appeal. If there is a dispute, this will be settled by arbitration, and if the arbitration goes against the owner, it is possible for the charges to be spread over a period of thirty years.
The third point as to the powers that I desire to mention has reference to maintenance. After schemes have been operated and completed, the completed works will require attention from time to time. Where the original works have been carried out under a scheme approved by the Minister—that is to say, by compulsory powers—then the cost of the maintenance will fall on the coast protection authority. But where maintenance falls upon the proprietors themselves, under whatever covenant may exist, then the authority or the board have the power of insisting that maintenance shall be properly undertaken. If maintenance is not properly undertaken, then the board or the authority have the right to do the work and then to charge the cost to the owners.
I think it would be better for the House if I now read my brief, because certain items of finance are involved and it is particularly important that your Lordships should be clear as to the meaning. There are, however, one or two other points which are of some importance before I begin to read. The authority will pay compensation for depreciation and disturbance, and the depreciation will also be based on the difference in the value of any interest in land caused by the carrying out of the work. It is not intended that this Bill should relieve anyone of the obligation he already has—that is to say, by reason
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of tenure, custom or local Act—to carry out coastal protection work.
Clause 16 enables the authority to enforce any such obligations. Anyone who wants to carry out building or other such development on the seashore, will have to get a certificate from the coast protection authority saying that " the development can be carried out consistently with the requirements of coast protection" before he can get permission for the development under the Town and Country Planning Act. The excavation and removal of materials from the seashore may be prohibited or controlled if necessary, and this, too, of course, is a matter which will have to be looked at from the coast protection angle. The Minister is aware that in certain parts of the country shore sand and gravel are very valuable for agricultural or other purposes, and any orders affecting such places would be a matter for consultation between the Minister and the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or other Minister concerned.
County councils are to contribute to the expenses of county district committees in carrying out coast protection work, and if the amount is not agreed it will be determined by the Minister. County councils can also contribute to the expenses of other persons in protecting land in the county, and a coast protection authority may similarly contribute to the work of others. The Minister may make grants in aid of coast protection authorities' expenses, and the Bill also gives statutory authority to the scheme of grants in aid of work commenced by local authorities since V.J. day with the Minister's approval. The Minister may also assist county councils to carry out work to protect county roads, and this assistance will take the place of the previous grants paid to them by the Minister of Transport from the Road Fund. It is the Minister's intention to make capital grants, instead of the grants in aid of local loan charges previously contemplated. There will not, however, be Exchequer grants in aid of the year-to-year maintenance work which will be necessary. It is roughly estimated that coast protection authorities will spend between £500,000 and £1,000,000 per annum in the early years after the Bill becomes law. The Minister's grant will vary according to the circumstances

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of each case, but overall it may average perhaps 50 per cent.
These are the main provisions of Part I of the Bill, although it is of course impossible, in a single speech, to explain all the complex provisions which have been inserted in order to hold the balance as fairly as possible between the various public and private interests concerned. Under Part II, Clauses 29 to 31, operations below high water mark which might result in obstruction or danger to navigation will in all cases require the consent of the Minister of Transport. This provision makes general a control which already existed in the case of works done under local enactments, and it will be generally agreed to be very desirable. Part III of the Bill, Clauses 32 to 35, transfers from the Minister of Transport to the Commissioners of Crown Lands the powers of management of such Crown foreshore as was under the management of the Minister. This transfer will take place as from an appointed day and will give formal effect to the arrangements already working on an agency basis.
Part IV contains supplementary provisions which do not call for special comment at present. A word should, however, perhaps be said about the Fourth Schedule. There is no satisfactory general definition of "seashore," except as one which extends as far as the tidal limits up all rivers. The practical purposes of the Bill, however, are confined to the coast as the ordinary person understands it, and to make this clear the Schedule excludes from the purposes of the Bill the waters of all the more important rivers above their seaward limits in England and Wales. Above those seaward limits, problems can be dealt with, generally speaking, by the drainage authorities under the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. Owing to the different circumstances of Scotland in this respect, Scottish rivers are not included in the Fourth Schedule. It should be mentioned also, in connection with the drainage authorities, that coast protection authorities will have no power or duty to take action in places where coast defences are already maintained by a river board or drainage authority.
These then are the main features of the Coast Protection Bill, and the Government hope that your Lordships will give
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it sympathetic consideration, in order that, within the present restrictions on capital expenditure, a great deal of badly needed work may be done. I beg to move.
Moved, That this Bill he now read 2a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
4.36 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, we have all listened with interest to the noble Lord who has outlined the provisions of the Bill for which he has just asked a Second Reading. If he will allow me to say so, I thought, from such knowledge as I have of the Bill, that he was completely accurate in his remarks about it, even before he came to what he said was the reading of his brief. I did not find very much difference between his speech when he was referring to his own notes and when he came to the reading of the brief.
Everyone will agree that it is desirable to prevent erosion of our coasts, and the encroachment of the sea. It is true that the sea is not encroaching on our agricultural land half as fast as the Sahara Desert is encroaching on lands to its south every year; but the sea is taking away parts of our land, and that is a thing we ought to try to bring to an end. This Bill sets up these protection boards and authorities in order that something may be done about it. Under Clause 6 these boards are given power to carry out such coast protection work as may appear to them to be necessary or expedient; and what appears to them to be expedient will, of course, depend largely upon the cost involved. It is therefore important to consider not only the setting up of machinery, but who is going to pay. There are four kinds of bodies or persons who will contribute under this measure as it comes before us. The first group (though they are concerned only to a small extent) are persons interested in the land that will be saved. The second is the coast protection authority itself, who (as I understand the Bill) can obtain contributions from everybody represented on the board—which means local and district councils, fishery boards, navigation authorities and bodies of that sort. The third is the county councils who have what I may call a sea front—the maritime counties—and the fourth is the Exchequer.

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Under one clause of this Bill an owner cannot be charged more than the value by which the land has appreciated as a result of the work. I think that, by and large, that is fair, although one may find that in certain circumstances it will be quite a hardship on a man who perhaps is farming the land himself and has not the extra bit of capital to pay the unexpected charge. I hope that in such a case a charge will not be made upon the farmer. When it comes to maintaining other works, I notice, the owner will have to pay a considerably greater sum. Therefore, I think that on the Committee stage we shall have to discuss between us whether it is not fair to limit the maintenance charge on the owner who happens to have, sticking out from his land, a groyne or some kind of mole, which apparently, under the Bill, he will have to keep in repair wholly at his own expense. That, of course, as one well knows, will benefit land other than his own, and for that kind of work I think we ought probably to have something similar to the provision, to which I have referred, in the clause where there is a works scheme.
So much for the owner's contribution. I think it right to consider on what theory maritime county councils and county districts, and no others, are charged, became it seems to me to be a theory as out of date as Hampden's contention that nobody except those who lived on the coast should pay ship money. It is clear that this is really a national matter, and not one for the inhabitants of the local districts. The noble Lord was good enough to give some indication as to how much the Exchequer contribution was likely to be. I observed that those words came out of the brief and were, of course, very carefully chosen words: "It may average perhaps 50 per cent." Of course, that does not get us anywhere. It may average perhaps 50 per cent.; it may perhaps average 10 per cent.; or it may average perhaps anything! So far, that is no great indication as to what the Exchequer contribution is to be. If it is meant to indicate that the contribution will be about 50 per cent., then in my view it is not enough, because this is really a national charge. If we have an invasion of our coasts by the armies, navies or air forces of a foreign Power, it is the National Ex
630
chequer which pays for the defence of our coasts. If that attack is made by the sea, as it is in the case with which we are dealing, it seems to me that the sea should be repelled mainly by the efforts of all the subjects of His Majesty.
If we take, for instance, the case of trunk roads, they are now paid for wholly by the Exchequer. When it is a case of preserving the size of a county, that seems to me to be mainly a national concern. It might be right to say that the local councils should pay some small contribution, because they are having a part of their rateable value preserved to them, but that would be a far less contribution than the 50 per cent., which, as I understand it, is at present envisaged. This 50 per cent. is a great burden to impose upon the district council, the county council and the ratepayers between them. For instance it is difficult to see how the man living on the northern boundaries of Sussex gains any more benefit from the rates that are levied on him than does the person who lives on the southern boundaries of Surrey, the latter, if my geography is right, being just about as near the South Coast as is the former. If we want to get anything effective done under this Bill, the National Exchequer will have to take a larger share; they will have to consider the matter in a rather different light from what is, as I gather, their present intention.
I am not at all sure that in this Bill, too, Scotland has rot something of a grievance. I think that in a matter of this sort, Scotland might well have had a measure of its own. In Clause 2, a very important clause, your Lordships will find that in subsection (10) it says:
"This section shall rot apply to Scotland."
As the noble Lord himself indicated, as you go through the Bill you find that the Scottish rivers are not mentioned in the Fourth Schedule, because a different system applies in Scotland. I think that when there are as many differences as these between the ways in which the measure is to operate in the two countries, there would have been a legitimate claim to have the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, bringing his own little Bill to deal with Scotland.
I should also just refer to one other matter. In Scotland "land" seems to include salmon fishing, but in this Bill

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salmon fishings are nowhere mentioned in regard to English rivers. In that respect, I would just remark that there are some extremely good salmon fishings in the English rivers; they are not the sole monopoly of Scotland. I do not know where he found it in the Bill, but the noble Lord who moved this Second Reading said that if anybody wanted to build a house, or to put up any kind of structure on the sea front, he would have to obtain a clearance certificate from the coast protection authority. Good gracious me, my Lords! Why cannot the town and country planning authority be the one which knows what areas should not be built on from the point of view of the coast protection authority? Why should not the coast protection authority inform the town and country planning authority so that an area will not be town planned for houses if it is wrong to build them there, so that the wretched person who wants to get permission has not to go to yet another authority—very probably, one in a completely different town from the one in which he lives—to obtain his clearance certificate? Why this cannot all be brought into the purview of the town and country planning authority, I cannot for the life of me think. I hope that eventually that will be done.
There are one or two other smaller points that I would like to make. Clause 7, although an important clause, has not the usual provision, that lands and here-ditaments shall contribute to the cost in proportion to the benefits they receive. It has long been the law from the earliest Acts, with the Sewers Act some time in the last century, and it has long been the principle, to collect rates only in accordance with value or with benefits received, and I think some provision of that sort should be in the Bill. I am glad to see, under Clause 15, that where a man's land is depreciated he is given a claim. I would just comment, however, that it often takes some time after the provision of the groynes, and so on, before one can see whether neighbouring land has been adversely affected by these coast protection works. Therefore I think we shall have to consider in Committee whether the word "immediately" which appears in Clause 15, subsection (2), ought not to be left out.
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I think this is a Bill the general lines of which will raise no contention between us. It is, of course, clearly in the national interest that measures should be taken, in regard to the encroachment of the sea on our land. Whether that is done or not will depend largely on how much assistance is given in regard to these works, which, as the noble Lord has said, nowadays take a considerable quantity of machinery and are very substantial operations—I think his actual words were "too substantial for private owners to do, and too substantial for many local authorities to do." That reinforces my contention that, if we are to get any considerable action under this Bill, the Treasury will have to be more generous than they are at the present time. Nor do I think there will be much contention in regard to Part III, which states that the management of the Crown foreshore should be transferred from the Ministry of Transport (which is rather an odd place for it to be anyway) to the Commissioners of Crown Land.
The noble Lord who introduced this measure asked that it should be put through as early as possible. I can assure him that there will be no obstruction at all on our part; but, if I may say so, we are getting rather into the habit in this House of holding the Committee stage too soon after a Second Reading. That may be very well when a Bill has been introduced in another place. Then everybody is aware of its contents, and people outside this House have time to consider it while it is going through its stages in another place. But where a Bill is introduced for the first time into your Lordships' House, I think that we shall have to ask the Government to give us rather more time between the Second Reading and the Committee stage. I believe it is the endeavour of all noble Lords to see that any measure that is introduced here for the first time, when it is sent down to another place is in as perfect a form as we can make it during its passage through this House.
Therefore, although nobody wishes to delay this measure, I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that we must be given a reasonable time before we take the Committee stage. I understand that this has been called the longest Session of Parliament, so there ought to be ample time for these measures, or at least enough time to ensure that we do not

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hustle them through too swiftly. I understand that the other place has one or two considerable Bills before it which will take a good deal of Members' time, and that House will probably not be dealing with these smaller measures until the summer, at the earliest. I make this appeal to the noble Lord, although I assure him that this Bill is not going to be a highly contentious measure between us. That is the way in which I respond to his invitation to us to see that it does not take too long to pass through.
4.56 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I should like to express a word of congratulation to the Government for having tackled this old and thorny question. I speak with a little feeling on this matter, because I happened to become associated with a sea defence commission some two years ago, at rather a critical time in its history, when most of the defences had collapsed by reason of neglect of maintenance or the impossibility of maintenance during the war. Moreover, not only had our defences collapsed, but our finance had collapsed as well. The small contributions that we received under our local Act were quite inadequate to pay for the repairs, and a new Act was needed. Indeed, at a critical moment all the work had to be held up because the company doing it were not at all satisfied that they would be properly paid. Therefore I am glad that the Government are now providing us with proper general powers to deal with this situation in an orderly way. I am also glad that, at any rate by implication, the Government are accepting the principle that coast protection is a national and not merely a local interest, for the reasons just put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin.
I am glad, too, to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that the national interest is to be expressed not only in the matter of grants. I cannot claim anything but the most superficial scientific knowledge, but I would certainly agree, so far as I am able to judge, that jetties and other works built into the sea bring about the most unexpected results and may well increase coast erosion further down the coast, possibly quite a long way away. I do not believe that hitherto any official body has been examining this side of the ques
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tion. Now that there is a Minister with general responsibility, I hope that his Department may become a focus for research of all kinds, not only into that matter but also into such questions as the construction of sea walls and groynes.
Having expressed this gratitude to the Government (because certainly their move in our case was an extremely timely one) it may perhaps seem a little ungracious to say anything at all in criticism of the Bill. Nevertheless, the contrast between the present attitude of the Government and the attitude adopted two years ago is so remarkable that I feel impelled to make one or two comments on it. As I said, in 1946 the authority of which I happen now to be Chairman was in a very tight spot. The seafront of the town of Seaford, in Sussex, looked as if it had experienced a heavy naval bombardment. Masses of derelict masonry were lying all over the beach; the town recreation ground was a salt water lake. About the only thing which saved half the town from inundation was a road embankment, strengthened by a sewer, plus, of course, the devoted efforts of a few hard-pressed engineers with a team of men working under extremely difficult conditions.
In spite of the fact that at that lime we were in that state, and that we were bankrupt, it became apparent that although the Ministries in Whitehall expressed sympathy, gave us moral support, and gave us priorities, none of them could or would do anything to help us. That was in 1946. It does not appear that from 1949 onwards we shall ever again have to complain of either lack of interest in Whitehall or of lack of power there. From having had to rely entirely on our own resources and initiative, we shall in future be able to do nothing without supervision, regulation and authorisation from Whitehall. That, anyhow, is what the Bill says. In fact, about the only bit of independence we shall have left is that which is provided by a little subsection at the bottom of page 7 of the Bill which says, in effect, that in case of emergency the local authority shall cut out "red tape" and take action. I am very glad to note that that subsection is in the Bill.
As for powers, I would point out that under Clause 25 the Minister can compel

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a district council to undertake any work that he is satisfied they should undertake, and can put the whole cost on to the district council. Alternatively, under Clause 19, he can order a county council to contribute to the cost apparently up to any amount. Under Clause 26, he can amend or repeal any local Act. Yet, when it comes to the Minister's own contribution, all the Bill says in Clause 20 is that he "may make grants" subject to such conditions as the Treasury may lay down—whatever they may be. These are not merely powers; they are dictatorial powers. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will tell us that, however the Bill may be drafted, the Minister will always use these powers in a reasonable way. I am sure he will say that, despite what might be thought to be occasional appearances to the contrary, the Minister of Health is never moved by prejudice, and that he will never treat any particular local authority with harshness or interfere with them unduly.
Indeed, judging from such experience as I have had, I am convinced that that is the intention. We have been enjoying a pre-taste of this Bill under a special arrangement which was announced by the Prime Minister in January, 1947, and which has been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd. I feel bound to say that although I was somewhat apprehensive, in the first place, about the conditions attaching to these grants, the grants themselves have been substantial, there has been no undue interference; in fact, we have been treated very reasonably, and (and this may seem rather surprising) matters have been dealt with very expeditiously. All this makes it the more strange, to my way of thinking, that the Bill should have been drafted in this way. If His Majesty's Government really intend to be fair and reasonable to local authorities, why is it necessary to take powers, as they have done, to behave unfairly and unreasonably?
I do not know what may be the attitude of other associations of local government bodies, but I do know that the County Councils' Association are opposed to the whole principle of the Bill as it is presented. I understand that they want a separate national service, financed out of national funds, with contributions from local authorities. I do not suppose that
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at this stage His Majesty's Government will be prepared to recast the entire Bill. For my own part, I confess that I see considerable difficulty in having an entirely separate service, because—certainly in the case of built-up areas—it seems to me that it would involve two separate authorities dealing with different aspects of the same sea front. But I think we can all sympathise with the County Councils' Association in the apprehensions which they feel as to what may be done under the Bill as drafted, and particularly as to what might happen to their finances. I am wondering, therefore, if the Government can foreshadow any possible line of Amendments which they might introduce, to provide some safeguards to meet the fears of these local authorities. After all, the local authorities are the people who will have to carry out the provisions of this Bill, and if the scheme is to be forced upon them it will be rather like going in to bat with a team, half of whom do not want to play in the match at all.
Apart from the points I have raised, I have no other criticism of the Bill except for a few small Committee points, with which I will not bother your Lordships to-day. But there is one question which I should like to ask. Clause 7 contemplates a complicated system of levying charges on private property. This may seem rather elementary, but I would like to know whether the term "land" includes all existing buildings on the land. My point is that, under modern theory, all value in land over and above its existing use value—as I understand it—now belongs to the State. Therefore, I cannot see that any authority will be able to make much money out of this provision except by taxing existing houses—unless, of course, it is to be permissible to levy tax on the central landlord. It would be interesting to know whether that is contemplated under the Bill. It seems to me that the trouble involved in levying this charge, in order merely to obtain some of the increased agricultural value out of the land, would be somewhat disproportionate.
5.10 p.m.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, I shall not take up much of your Lordships' time, because I have found that, in the few days at my disposal—and no doubt other busy members of

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your Lordships' House have had the same experience—it has been extremely difficult to master the complex matters which are involved in this Bill. The main reason why I rise to speak is to protest against such a Bill being first presented on November 16 and then read a second time just over a week later, so that we have little more than a week-end in which to study and digest its forty-five clauses and fifty-odd pages. I feel that we have a right to complain of the Second Reading taking place so soon.
Naturally we welcome the fact that at last we have a Coast Protection Bill in being. It has come at least twenty years too late, but at any rate there is a hope that now much needed things will be done. On the other hand, it is extremely difficult, however good the intentions of the Bill may be, to pass it conscientiously on Second Reading when there may be matters of principle which have to be taken into consideration as well as matters of detail which can be discussed in Committee. Landowners, farmers, local authorities, surveyors and engineers, are all closely concerned with this Bill, either in the matter of their own bread and butter, or through their expert knowledge as to how the Bill would work. I should like to stress what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, about what he conceives to be the possible danger of an insufficient maintenance provision of a national order to meet the cost of coast protection. The charter which the Royal Agricultural Society drew up about four years ago, a document remarkable for its agreement as well as for the sound sense and the constructive ideas it put forward, mentioned among other things that it was the opinion of all present who sponsored that document that coast protection should be a national charge, though, of course, there may well be occasions when real benefit to an individual person argues that an individual charge ought to be levied. I think we are going to see a great danger of local authorities waiting too long before taking action, because they are not quite certain of what they will be able to get out of the Treasury. It is so easy to delay—and then have to spend £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 more than would have been spent had the matter been dealt with in time.
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I will give two instances which may be familiar to your Lordships. In my own county, as in that of my noble friend who has just spoken, we have had instances of coast erosion which have been neglected. A small encroachment at Lymington has involved a cost of tens of thousands of pounds because of delay. Then we have Mullion Harbour, where the sea has eroded under the defences of the harbour and is now breaking down the sea wall. That could have been put right a little while ago, had the National Trust been in a position to do it at a reasonable cost. Every day it goes on, the cost is mounting. It may be that this delightful little harbour, of great local use to fishermen, will disappear completely. I am greatly concerned, because if there is not a much more generous conception of coast protection by national charge, local authorities will always hope that the boy will be able to keep his hand in the dyke through the night. They may forget, in their care for immediate financial economy, that shutting the stable door after they have let in the white horses is a costly procedure.
5.13 p.m.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, I should like my first word to be one of very sincere thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for the able, concise and lucid way in which he commended this Bill to your Lordships. But I confess that at the same time I should desire to support very strongly what was said by the noble Earl who spoke last, and by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, in respect of the time that has been allowed for consideration of this Bill. If your Lordships will look on the back of the Bill, you will see that it was ordered to be printed on November 16. That meant that harbour, conservancy and navigation authorities, who are concerned very intimately with such a Bill as this, had no opportunity of seeing it until last Friday, November 19. It is almost exactly forty-three years since I first entered the House of Commons as Liberal member for Rochester and I have encountered a good many intricate Bills (and I have introduced much longer Bills into your Lordships' House when I was a member of the Government), but in all that time I do not remember a more difficult and intricate Bill to encompass than this one. I think we are not being given sufficient

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opportunity of going properly into its provisions.
I must crave your Lordships' indulgence to point out that it is necessary that we should secure from the Government some form of undertaking that facilities for consultation will be offered to such authorities, in order to discuss the Amendments which they may consider absolutely necessary. Although the authorities have had a proper opportunity of going into some of the aspects of this question since the reply in another place, to which the noble Lord referred, they have not yet had a proper opportunity of going fully into this Bill and there are some Amendments which are not only necessary but without which, I submit, the Bill would be unworkable. I ask permission to refer, even at this early stage, to one or two that are so evidently necessary that attention should be drawn to them at the earliest possible moment.
In Part I, dealing with coast protection authorities, the Bill apparently contemplates setting up two forms of coast protection authority. The first may be the council of a maritime county borough or county district. Clause 1, which sets out this form of coast protection authority, does not provide for any representation whatsoever of a harbour, conservancy or navigation authority. Incidentally the Port of London Authority is all three. The second form of coast protection authority is the coast protection board, which may be set up by the Minister of Health under the provisions contained in Clause 2. This protection board, which can be set up by order, provides for representation not only of councils of county boroughs and county districts but also of harbour, conservancy and navigation authorities, but only if the order setting up the coast protection board provides for such representation. It is therefore quite conceivable that the Minister may set up a coast protection board upon which these authorities are not represented at all.
Then I would say a word as regards the extent of jurisdiction. Having regard to paragraph 111 of the Fourth Schedule of the Bill, it is a little difficult for the harbour, conservancy or navigation authorities concerned to find out the extent to which they may be affected by the provisions of this Bill.
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Clause 44, the Interpretation Clause, defines "seashore" as
"the bed and shore of the sea, and of every channel, creek, bay or estuary, and of every river as far up that river as the tide flows …"
So far as the conservancy powers of the Port of London Authority are concerned, the tide flows up to Teddington, but for the purposes of Part I of the Bill coast protection of the seashore does not include the bed or shore of any water specified in the Fourth Schedule. In Paragraph 21 of the Fourth Schedule the River Thames is shown as
"The River Thames, above a line drawn from the London Stone, North Level, Isle of Grain, to the westernmost point of the boundary of the County Borough of Southend."
Paragraph 111 in that Schedule, however, states:
"The Minister may by order vary the foregoing provisions of this Schedule either by the inclusion of any waters not for the time being specified therein or by the exclusion of any waters for the time being so specified."
If the Bill is passed in this form, the areas affected can be varied from time to time by ministerial order. But, as Paragraph 21 of the Fourth Schedule is at present drafted, as I read it, it means that for some ten miles above the seaward limit of the Port of London the Thames is "sea" and "seashore" for the purpose of Part I of the Bill.
I say that because, as provided in the Fourth Schedule, the up-river limit of "seashore" conforms to no existing specified boundary in relation to the Port of London Authority's jurisdiction—or, rather, it makes another artificial line in relation to that. It agrees with the former seaward limit, on the south side, of the Thames Conservancy, and thus of the present limit of ownership of the Port of London Authority of the bed and shores of the Thames; but on the other side of the river the line is taken to a point west of the Crow Stone (the former Thames Conservancy limit on that side) to the western boundary of Southend, which now includes Leigh-on-Sea. This point is, I think, some ten miles above the seaward limit of the Port of London, and for that distance the Thames is "sea" and "seashore" for the purposes of Part I, thus making quite gratuitously, I submit, another artificial line.
I do not want to indulge simply in destructive criticism and, therefore, I

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would like at this stage to make a constructive suggestion. It is that Paragraph 21 in the Fourth Schedule, instead of defining the River Thames as it does, should define it as:
"The River Thames above a line drawn through the Nore from the Kent to the Essex coast."
I make that suggestion because that is the limit under the present statutory authority of the Port of London Authority.
Now I would like to say a few words as to the interference with existing statutory powers. Clause 18 of the Bill provides that a coast protection authority (which conceivably might be a local borough situate within the estuarial waters of a harbour, conservancy or navigation authority) can by order apply the provisions of that clause as respects the whole of that portion of the seashore, or any part thereof as may be specified in the order. That could prevent a harbour authority carrying out dredging which is considered necessary, unless excepted from the order, or only under their licence. I am sorry to weary your Lordships, but this is a very serious point. Clause 18 is to take the place of the Coast Protection Act, 1939—which is to be repealed—and provides that
"… notwithstanding anything contained in any other enactment, it shall be unlawful to excavate or remove any materials (other than minerals more than fifty feet below the surface) on, under or forming part of any portion of the foreshore to which the provisions of this section are applied."
They are to be so applied by an order to be made by a coast protection authority under the machinery of the Second Schedule to any area within, or seaward of, the area of the coast protection authority and thus be applied by, say, the Southend Corportion, both to the area in front of Southend and seaward thereof, possibly as far as the Nore.
The Port of London Authority's dredging powers and duties extend to the Nore, under Section 216 of their Consolidation Act of 1920, subject to the limitation in Section 312 of that Act; and if the matter were left there the Authority's powers would be abrogated. It is, however, provided in Clause 18 (3) that an order applying the clause may except from the prohibition the carrying out of operations of any such class as may be specified,
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and any exception may be either unconditional or subject to specified conditions. Subsection (5), too, provides for the granting by the coast protection authority of a licence to do anything which would otherwise be a contravention of the prohibition.
An order made under Clause 18 must comply with the provisions contained in the Second Schedule, which do not provide for the service of any notice of the order on any authorities that may be affected thereby or concerned with it. Apparently it is the intention that such authorities should have to rely upon picking up the notice in the London Gazette or a local newspaper. In the Coast Protection Act, 1939—which, as I say, is to be repealed by this Bill—a full saving was incorporated, under which nothing in that Act, or any order made there-under, was to:
"take away, diminish or prejudice any rights, powers or privileges in relation to conserving, maintaining, or improving the navigation of a tidal water … conferred by any public, general or local or private Act on any harbour authority, conservancy authority, or navigation authority."
It is difficult to conceive why a similar clause was omitted from the present Bill.
I should also like to draw attention to the fact that Clause 26 empowers the Minister by order to repeal or amend the provisions of a local Act. The First Schedule contains the procedure for making orders and provisions as to the validity of orders constituting coast protection boards. Part I of the Schedule provides that before making an order the Minister shall prepare a draft, and shall cause notice to be served on various authorities, including a harbour, conservancy or navigation authority, known to the Minister to be exercising jurisdiction within that area, and for objections to the draft order. Under Part II of the Schedule, if a body on whom notice is required to be served does not withdraw its objection to the order it is subjected to special Parliamentary procedure. A navigation authority that is not within the area, but is on the borders of it—to which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, made reference in his speech of introduction—might be vitally affected by any proposed order, but is not entitled to the protection of special Parliamentary procedure.

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I would now like to say just a word, in regard to works detrimental to navigation. In Part II of the Bill, Clause 29 provides that no person shall, without the consent in writing of the Minister of Transport, carry out operations such as the construction of works below high water mark of ordinary spring tides, and for the purpose of this Part of the Act the seashore within the Port of London extends up to Teddington. It does not stop at the boundary of Southend and the London Stone on the opposite shore. Under the Port Authority's own Statutes, works upon the bed or shore of the Thames must be approved by the Minister of Transport. It would now appear, as the Minister pointed out this afternoon in introducing this measure, that a further consent of the Minister of Transport must be obtained if he is of the opinion that any such work may be an obstruction or danger to navigation, a function which both he and a harbour authority can already exercise under local Acts. Every pier and jetty is a potential obstruction or a danger to navigation. Are we to continue having to obtain consent after consent to do the very things for which we already have statutory power?
I do not want to weary your Lordships with other technical details, but I would emphasise the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and the noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, that we should have ample time before the Committee stage, in order that the authorities should have an opportunity of consulting with the Ministry and be given the chance of suggesting Amendments that would make it workable under their own present statutory authorities.
5.32 p.m.
LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, I have only a very few words to say from the point of view of Scotland. I would like to echo the point made by my noble friend Lord Llewellin, that it would seem that it might have been better to have a separate Scottish Bill. Before I add to that, in case the noble Lord who introduced the Bill thinks that I am ungrateful, I wish to say that I welcome the provisions of the Bill as a very definite step forward in dealing with the danger of coast erosion.
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Coast erosion, or the action of the sea, has been a matter of British history since the time of King Canute, and it will certainly be recorded that this Bill makes a practical effort to deal with the problem. But I feel that the case of Scotland is so different from that of England—as is shown by the Bill itself—that it would have been a cleaner job to have a separate Scottish Bill. In a Bill covering fifty pages, I find that on twenty pages there are subsections specially applying the measure to Scotland, while the important Clause 2, which constitutes the coast protection boards, does not apply to Scotland. In saying this, I make no criticism of the purpose of the measure, but observe that we might have been better served by a separate Bill for Scotland.
There is also the question of time. I know that the Secretary of State has machinery for consultation with local authorities—he is generally most careful about consulting them—but it is one thing to consult local authorities about the general purpose of a Bill, and it is another thing to let them actually see the measure itself, so that they can have time to make suggestions and frame Amendments. The time available in this case has been very short, and I trust, therefore, that it will be possible to give a reasonable period for consideration by the authorities concerned before the Committee stage. My final word is this. The maritime counties are not rich, by any means. The coastal counties in Scotland are amongst those with a low rateable value. There are many striking cases and I could give examples, but I will not weary your Lordships. It is not clear whether the great cities can come to their aid; it will depend upon definitions, and I am not myself quite clear whether the great seaport cities, where a high proportion of the rateable value of the country lies, are to be included or not. That will be made clear in time. I would, therefore, re-state my view that the local authorities should now be given a period of time to examine the implications of this Bill and, if they wish to do so, to frame Amendments. I conclude by saying that I welcome the measure as a step forward in dealing with a dangerous problem.
5.36 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I would like to apologise to the House, and particu

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larly to the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, for having endeavoured to gate-crash the debate at an earlier stage. I did not know that there was so lengthy a list of speakers. I want to intervene in this debate as one connected with the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. As your Lordships know, that body has stations all round the coasts of the British Isles, and we are only too painfully aware of the degree of coast erosion which is going on in certain areas. For example, we have on the seashore at Selsey a lifeboat station which was established, comparatively speaking, not very long ago—I mean about twenty or thirty years ago. I well remember that station being established, and now, as a result of the coast erosion there (which has been proceeding at the rate of twenty-one feet a year) our lifeboat house stands out at sea, a considerable distance off shore. We have become a pier authority, and we are extending our pier back to the shore every year in order to keep pace with the erosion. I can remember fields where I have seen cows and sheep grazing, but which are now just open sea.
Having said that, I would like to reinforce what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, and other noble Lords, that we should have ample time between now and the Committee stage in order fully to consider this Bill. It may considerably affect the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. We have to establish stations round the coast, often not exactly where we would like to put them but where we have to put them, because of the difficulty of launching our boats, which have to be able to go to sea in any weather and at any state of the tide. That very requirement may possibly conflict a good deal with the requirements, for instance, of such a body as the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, which will be concerned with the operation of this measure. I do not know whether we shall have to move an Amendment in order to try and safeguard our position so far as may be. We may have to extend below high water mark a big slipway, or something of that sort. There are all kinds of snags of that type which may arise. Again, as a body owning property which borders on a maritime county, or whatever it is called in the Bill, we might conceivably be invited to share in the cost, but I do not know
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whether we have any power to do so. Our charter empowers us to save life at sea, and there is certainly no power to do anything in the way of providing against coast erosion. Therefore, the Bill, as drafted, might produce considerable difficulty for the body to which I have the honour to belong.
Apart from those considerations, I welcome the Bill, because we know in the Institution how very badly this Bill is required in many areas. The noble Viscount, Lord Gage, spoke of Seaford and Seaford Bay. We are only too welt aware of the terrible series of storms which did so much damage there. I hope the Bill will do something to help particularly the county councils of East and West Sussex, where coast erosion has been proceeding on an appalling scale, and also certain maritime counties on the East Coast. I plead again that we should have as much time as can possibly be arranged between now and the Committee stage, so that we may have a chance to study the Bill in all its implications and to frame Amendments which may be required in order to safe guard our position.
5.40 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I also would like to support what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, about the position of Scotland. I will reinforce what I have to say by a short description of a portion of the coast which is familiar to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, and myself, and which will illustrate the points I wish to make. It is a portion of the coast where in recent times there has been some gain from the sea. I will not say that there has been elevation, but there has been gain. If there has been any elevation at all, it has ceased, because the local river—a short one — has cut down to what I think is called its "logarithmic bed." Sometimes in the past we were afraid of marine invasions when the wind was in a certain quarter and there were very high spring tides, and the coast was strengthened by sand-hills held together by what is called "bent grass" or what is known in England as marram grass. After an extension of the harbour breakwater at a point of the coast well out to sea, the set of the currents was so altered that the river

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changed its course and there was actually, to the relief of everybody, a gain of land.
The point I wish to make is that if we cannot have a Scottish Bill, and this Bill is to apply to Scotland, the coast defence authorities in Scotland will be the county councils. If that is so, I think that there should be a central expert advisory body for the whole of Scotland to deal with coast erosion, because I honestly believe that the county engineers—although I have a very high opinion of them—are not necessarily the people who ought to do that work. It is highly technical work, depending on the set of the currents along the coast. A large portion of the East Coast of Scotland is defended by the simple herb called bent grass, or marram grass, to which I have referred. I believe that that grass was introduced from Holland, and that it was regarded in the time of James III as so valuable that death was the penalty for anyone who destroyed it. To-day, however, it is being destroyed right and left by small boys. I think some noble Lords opposite do not believe in corporal punishment; but something of that sort should, I am sure, be applied when necessary if small boys wantonly destroy this grass which is such a valuable form of protection.
The noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, mentioned the maritime counties. Just consider, my Lords, the portion of the coast of Scotland from Inverness round to the North and then West and South to Glasgow. In parts of that area there may or may not be subsidence going on; but the authorities there are unable to pay for coast erosion schemes. Then consider for a moment the Islands. I think it is a pity to impose stringent penalties on people who build there such things as boat slips. They will do it, whether it is permitted or not. I do not like a law which everybody breaks, and I think some concession should be made there. I should also like to ask the noble Lord why, if the Minister of Health is the ultimate authority for the defence of our coasts from erosion, it is necessary to go to the Minister of Transport to find out whether one can put a boat slip or any such thing somewhere. I should have thought that one would have had to go to the Minister of Health, if he is the responsible authority. I should prefer to see a separate Bill for Scotland; but if
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Scotland has to be dealt with in this Bill, I beg the noble Lord to consider carefully the points I have put forward.
5.45 p.m.
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE: My Lords, I should like to say a word in support of what Lord Clydesmuir and Lord Saltoun have said concerning the reference in this Bill to Scotland. Noble Lords who have spoken with great experience from the English point of view, have referred to the complexity and difficulty of the Bill. That is greatly enhanced by the references to Scotland; parts of clauses are excluded or altered and in some cases become almost unintelligible without very great scrutiny and care. For instance, subsection (5) of Clause 31 provides that in England and Wales the harbour authority shall have power to enforce the provisions of Clause 29, but there is no provision for similar power in Scotland. Lord Clydesmuir also referred to the fact that the Secretary of State was having consultations with local authorities on this matter. That is perfectly true. The County Councils Association have a committee sitting, on which I have the honour to serve, and I know that those consultations are proceeding; but until this Bill was produced there was no opportunity of seeing the whole picture. As other noble Lords have said, the time allowed for getting at the root of the matter has been infinitesimal. I will therefore do anything I can to support the plea put forward by Lord Clydesmuir, Lord Llewellin and others, that we should be given ample time before the Committee stage, so that further consultations may take place with the Secretary of State and with local authorities in order that they may see how they are affected by the provisions of the Bill.
5.47 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I do not think that the Government can be disappointed at the reception given to this Bill in your Lordships' House. They will understand that there is a genuine interest in the subject matter of the Bill amongst all Parties. I myself feel a great deal of pleasure at the reception your Lordships have given the Bill, because this is the first occasion on which I have taken the responsibility for such a measure; and you will understand that, apart from a certain degree of nervous-

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ness, I am not quite sure whether I shall adequately cover the points that have been raised. I should like first to deal with some of the smaller points before turning to the main speech delivered by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin. I do so because I think most of the points raised in the shorter speeches at the end of the discussion dealt with matters which can be more effectively discussed in Committee; and, as they are taken separately in Committee, they will be seen by the Government for what they are and the Government can take the measure of them. The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, suggested the setting up of a Scottish Advisory Committee to advise the authorities responsible for the coasts of Scotland.
LORD SALTOUN: If I may interrupt the noble Lord, I would point out that what I meant to imply was that the engineering side should be centralised in the Scottish Office; it should not be left to the professional staff of county councils.
LORD SHEPHERD: Although we have been talking in terms of one Minister there are other Ministers involved. There is not only the Minister of Health in England but also the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is associated with him in the application of this measure to that country. It is suggested that it might have been better had there been two Bills instead of one, in order to meet the Scottish situation; but I would like to remind noble Lords that in addition to the two Ministers I have mentioned already, two other Ministers are very much concerned. There is the Minister of Transport, who will supervise or deal with works which are a danger to shipping and the like; and there is the Minister of Agriculture. As your Lordships know, I am a Lord in Waiting and am not a member of the Ministry of Health, but I presume that one of the reasons why there is one Bill instead of two is to enable all Ministers mentioned to take part in any discussions that may be necessary.
The point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has been noted, but I think he will agree that if there is any difficulty in the matter he can raise the subject when we reach the Committee stage. Indeed, that applies to a good many of the matters raised by the noble Lord,
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Lord Rochester. What I can promise him is that the points he has raised will be fully considered and will not be lost because they are not being given detailed attention now.
The noble Viscount, Lord Gage, made a somewhat interesting speech, if I may say so. He uttered feelings of dismay at what he considers to be the autocratic powers wielded by Whitehall; but if he will look more closely at the Bill, and if he will bear well in mind that the powers under a Bill mast work, he will realise that on occasions the Minister must come into the picture. Obviously, if national money is to be found for these purposes, it cannot just be handed over to the coast protection authorities without the Government themselves having some say in it. There is another instance in which the Minister will interfere. Sonic authorities, it may be, will "go to sleep" on this measure. I hope that that will not be the case, but if it be the case the Minister has taken power to deal with it. If the noble Viscount will for a moment consider that, I believe he will agree that the Minister should have a power of that kind. At any rate, it is a power which seems to us to be necessary for success.
I come now to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and those sitting around him. First of all, there is the question of time for the Committee stage. On inquiry from my noble friend Lord Ammon, I have found that the actual time for the Committee stage has not yet been fixed, but he authorises me to say that the observations made by the noble Lord will be given due attention because the Government are not anxious—indeed the Minister of Health himself is not anxious—that this Bill should be so rushed through your Lordships' House that no opportunity of considering its importance is provided. A number of noble Loris have spoken on that point. I hope that they are satisfied with the explanation I have given.
Then there is the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, with reference to the coastwise counties and the inland counties. Superficially, there is something to be said for it, but I venture to say that, when the Government make their contribution to the coastwise authorities, they will be doing so out of funds to which the inland counties have made their contribution. In other words,

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we must look upon this money coming from the Government not as a mere gift from Whitehall but as a joint contribution coming from both the Government themselves and the rest of the country. I think that what we have to impress upon the coastwise authorities is this: that although the country itself has an obligation, they have in their localities an obligation over and above that which applies elsewhere. If there are benefits arising, then the principal part of the benefits will come their way. If there are improvements, then the improvements will make themselves felt in their direction. If we weigh one thing against the other, and we have the Government contributing, as they suggest, then the coastwise authorities will have no cause to complain.
The noble Lord also asked me a question as to where the Bill mentioned the powers of the coast protection authority in relation to town and country planning questions. If the developments that are to take place are away from the sea coast, or not exactly on the sea coast (even though they may be in a borough or in a district which is adjacent to the sea coast), then the coast protection authorities are not involved. But if development is to take place on the seashore itself, then the coast protection authorities are interested, because they have to make quite sure that what is proposed will not help in the destruction of the coast itself. All that will be necessary in those cases is that the town and country planning authority shall receive an intimation from the coast protection authority that what is proposed is not likely to endanger the sea coast.
Another point raised by the noble Lord is the charge on farming and the like where the farmer himself may not be able to meet a somewhat heavy charge that may be placed upon him. In cases like that, where an agreement is not reached between the coast protection authority and the farmer, recourse can be had to the magistrates' court for a settlement. It will be within the power of the magistrates' court to decide whether the Minister or the coast protection authority should bear a larger part of the burden than those authorities themselves had contemplated. In other words, the magistrates' court could arrange a settlement in order to ease a case where there is extreme difficulty such as has been contemplated.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord, but I am glad to hear his explanation of that matter, because, of course, under Clause 13 the man is all right. It is only when there is a question of one of these works schemes that he may not be all right. If it is intended that he shall be able to go to the courts under the works schemes as well. I think it may be that there will have to be an Amendment to the Bill in that respect.
LORD SHEPHERD: The noble Lord can take it for granted that there will be no attempt on the part of the Government, or on the part of the local authorities, to impose upon a farmer such as has been described burdens which he cannot bear. I think I have done all that I can in the way of replying to-day. I hope that I have met sufficiently the points raised, and I trust that the Second Reading will, therefore, follow in due course.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

COLONIAL STOCK BILL
5.58 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Pakenham).
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: My Lords, we on this side of the House have no objection to this Bill. I do not intend to say anything further.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

DEBTS CLEARING OFFICES BILL
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Pakenham).
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: My Lords, on the Second Reading of this Bill I raised a point which seemed important to me. I am much obliged to the noble Lord,

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Lord Pakenham, for the information that he has since given me in elucidating that point. I have nothing further to add.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, while expressing gratitude to the noble Lord opposite for his remarks on the two previous Bills, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Pakenham).
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned at six o'clock.