Sitting of 17 November 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Air Training Corps
    Sir Wavell Wakefieldasked the Secretary of State for Air why no mention has been made of the Air Training Corps in the recruiting drive appeal for the R.A.F.; and why has previous policy in this respect been reversed.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Arthur Henderson): The primary aim of the present recruiting drive is to obtain volunteers for the Regular and Reserve Forces, but in speeches in support of the campaign both I and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State have made special reference to the Air Training Corps, to which I attach the greatest importance.
    Sir W. Wakefield: Is the Minister aware that in appeals on the occasion of previous recruiting drives the Air Training Corps was linked with the Royal Air Force? Why has not that been done in this case? Is not the best way to get recruits for the Royal Air Force to bring the advantages of the Royal Air Force before the Air Training Corps?
    Mr. Henderson: The position in regard to the Air Training Corps is reasonably satisfactory. Out of an overall ceiling of 75,000 we have at present a total strength of over 50,000.
    Mr. Sidney Shephard: Is it not a fact that the strength of the Air Training Corps has continuously declined during the past three years? What steps is the Minister taking to stimulate recruiting for it?
    Mr. Henderson: I am glad to say that recently there has been a steady improvement in recruiting.

    Accident (Airman's Death)
    Squadron-Leader Flemingasked the Secretary of State for Air what inquiry, apart from the coroner's inquest, was held into the death of Aircraftman Michael Gaunt stationed at Church Fenton, who was killed on a test flight on or about 16th April, 1948; and whether the father of the deceased has been informed of the cause of his son's death, or given particulars of the crash.
    Mr. A. Henderson: A Royal Air Force Court of Inquiry into this accident was held on 19th April. The father of the deceased airman has now been informed that the court was unable, through lack of evidence, to arrive at any positive conclusions about the cause of the accident. I regret that, through an unfortunate oversight, this information was not given earlier. I am sending the hon. and gallant Member further particulars of the accident.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: In view of the fact that the Court of Inquiry was held last April and that no information was given to the parents until quite recently—I do not know the exact date—would my right hon. and learned Friend consider the advisability of alternative procedure so that when the next-of-kin is informed in a fatal accident case, the usual telegram, which is sent by the Station Adjutant, should contain at the end the words "letter following," and then details should be given that there was no negligence, if such was the case?
    Mr. Henderson: Certainly. I shall be glad to examine that suggestion.

  W.A.A.F.
  Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement regarding proposed increases of pay and allowances for the W.A.A.F.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Proposals affecting all three permanent women's Forces are being considered, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence will make a statement as soon as possible.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman impress upon his colleagues that many of the W.A.A.F. personnel are getting less than two-thirds of what the men are getting

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  for the same work, and that it is impossible for them to live on what they are being paid? Will he impress that on his colleagues?
  Mr. Henderson: I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that I am well aware of that position.
  Mr. Cobbasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will permit all W.A.A.F. officers, up to and including the rank of section officer, to augment their income by civilian part-time work during off-duty hours; and whether he will provide special training courses to that end at fees within the reach of their income.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Under existing regulations an officer or airman may accept casual civil employment if he or she obtains permission, which would not normally be withheld unless Service interests required it. Training courses to assist W.A.A.F. personnel to prepare for occupations in civil life are already available free as part of the General Education Scheme of the R.A.F.
  Mr. Cobb: Would my right hon. and learned Friend see that this is brought more to the attention of these people, because, otherwise, he has to demonstrate to this House and to the country how these officers can lead a full and dignified life on 61s. 10d. a week?
  Mr. Henderson: All these facilities have been published in Air Ministry Orders, and it is expected that personnel will take the opportunity of reading them.
  Mr. Cobbasked the Secretary of State for Air how many W.A.A.F. officers have replaced R.A.F. officers since 1st January, 1948; what has been the saving in pay as a result; and if he is satisfied that the standard of work has been maintained.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Since 1st January, 1948, the number of of W.A.A.F. officers employed in posts which can be filled either by W.A.A.F. or by R.A.F. officers has been constant at about 300. The difference in pay amounts to about £130 a day. I am satisfied that the standard of work has been maintained.
  Mr. Cobb: Would not my right hon. and learned Friend admit that there is a very considerable saving here? Ought he
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  not to look into the question of equalising the pay of these women? Does not he think it would be deplorable if, when the pay and conditions of other junior officers are looked at, the pay of these people should be overlooked?
  Mr. Henderson: One must not assume that the pay and allowances of officers is being looked at and that the pay and allowances of W.A.A.F. officers is not being looked at. As regards the general principle of equal pay for equal work, that is a matter of Government policy, and not a Departmental matter.
  Mrs. Leah Manning: Is not this a case in which my right hon. and learned Friend can bring some pressure to bear upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to change Government policy in respect of equal pay for equal work, in the case of women doing exactly the same work as men?
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Is it not a fact that if these women were represented by a trade union the union would look upon these conditions as those of sweated labour?
  Mr. Cobbasked the Secretary of State for Air how many assistant section officers are employed in the W.A.A.F.; what is the average distance at which they are stationed from their homes; and how many free railway warrants are granted per annum.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Fourteen. They are stationed at an average distance of about 150 miles from their homes. They receive three free railway warrants a year.
  Mr. Cobb: Would my right hon. and learned Friend say how these junior officers, out of 61s. 10d. a week, after paying for their meals and other expenses, can afford railway tickets to go home when they get their monthly leave each month?
  Mr. Henderson: I think my hon. Friend is not quite right in his statement. The figure he has mentioned is that of the basic pay of an officer, and is exclusive of ration and other allowances.
  Mr. Cobb: Is not my right hon. and learned Friend aware that this 61s. 10d. is inclusive of all allowances? Is he aware that out of the 61s. 10d. they have to pay their mess bills and for their

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  uniforms, and that when they have done that, they have mere pocket money left, and no money with which to pay for railway journeys when they get their monthly leave?
  Mr. Henderson: They are in exactly the same position as that of all other ranks who also receive three free railway warrants each year.

  Air Surveys
  Mr. George Wardasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will state the number of square miles air-surveyed by the R.A.F. since January, 1946.
  Mr. A. Henderson: The number is 589,000.
  Sir W. Wakefield: Can the Secretary of State say where most of that has been done—in what part of the world?
  Mr. Henderson: Yes, Sir. In East Africa, 295,000 square miles; in the United Kingdom, 165,000.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Does that figure represent the total area that needed to be surveyed or only the total area the Royal Air Force was able to survey? If the case is the latter, why were not private surveying firms given the chance of contracting for the work?
  Mr. Henderson: The Royal Air Force has been asked, in the case of East and West Africa, to undertake this task by the Colonial Office, so that that question had better be addressed to my right hon. Friends the Colonial Secretary.

  Postings, Hong Kong and Ceylon
  Mr. John McKayasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that at the R.A.F. station Kai Tek, Kowloon, Hong Kong, a vacancy was filled by a W/O from Ceylon; the resulting vacancy at Ceylon is to be filled by W/O Parkinson, who after many moves had settled down at Hong Kong; and the remaining vacancy at Hong Kong by a W/O from the United Kingdom; will he explain the waste of time, money and ship-room involved, when one W/O could instead have been sent from this country; and will he retain these men where they now are, in particular W/O Parkinson who is to sail on 21st November.
  Mr. A. Henderson: I am making inquiries and will write to my hon. Friend as soon as possible. In the meantime W/O Parkinson's departure from Hong Kong has been deferred.

  Amman Airfield (Runways)
  Dr. Segalasked the Secretary of State for Air what is the length of the existing runways at Amman airfield; and whether these can be safely used by operational aircraft of the R.A.F.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Amman airfield has three runways, the lengths of which are 670, 607 and 490 yards, respectively, This airfield is not used by operational aircraft of the R.A.F.
  Dr. Segal: Is it not a fact that physical considerations prevent the extension of these runways to enable them to be used with safety by Royal Air Force aircraft?
  Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. There is no intention of extending these runways, and, at present, they are used only for light communication types.
  Mr. Janner: Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether there has been any increase in the number of aeroplanes and other aviation equipment supplied to Transjordan recently, and whether there is any truth in the suggestion that large numbers of our men have been sent there?
  Mr. Henderson: I can only speak for the Royal Air Force. So far as the airfield is concerned, I have said already that the only aircraft to use this airfield are light communication types, such as Ansons.

  LONDON—CAIRO AIR SERVICE (ROUTE)
  General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation, why it has been decided that aircraft of the B.O.A.C. London to Cairo service shall cease to use Malta as a stopping place, and shall stop overnight at Castel Benito instead; and whether, in view of the importance of maintaining the All Red route via Malta, this decision will be revised.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smilesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the

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  Ministry of Civil Aviation, why the B.O.A.C. London to Cairo and London to Australia services are to be diverted from Malta to Castel Benito; what is the reason for this change of policy; and what savings in time and money it will effect.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): It is British Overseas Airways Corporation's policy to operate fourengined aircraft on trunk routes, and, as part of this policy, Yorks are progressively replacing Dakotas on the Cairo trunk route. The routeing of Yorks through Castel Benito is dictated solely by technical considerations arising from the opinion of British Overseas Airways Corporation that Luqa is unsatisfactory for civil operations with Yorks. The question of a saving in time and money does not, therefore, arise. Since the service to Australia does not operate through Luqa no question of its diversion arises.
  Sir G. Jeffreys: Has the Minister borne in mind the importance of maintaining an all-British airfield and stopping place at Malta? Has he also borne in mind the benefit to Malta which would be conferred by the stopping there of all the British aircraft going through? Is it not a disadvantage to have a stopping place of this kind on foreign soil?
  Mr. Lindgren: The question of whether an aircraft goes in to land or not depends very largely on the operational suitability of the aerodrome, and the technical advice is that Luqa is not satisfactory for the operation of Yorks.
  Sir W. Smiles: Would the Parliamentary Secretary answer the question whether four-engined Yorks in the past have landed at Malta without any accidents? In view of the fight that the people of Malta put up in the war, and the fact that people there are losing their employment, would he consider sending some of the staff to Castel Benito?
  Mr. Lindgren: This is a joint user aerodrome, and the Royal Air Force also use the aerodrome. In fact, it has a Royal Air Force commander. Whether or not they are using Yorks I do not know, but my information is that the aerodrome has deteriorated, particularly the runways, and that it is not satisfactory for use, particularly at night.
  Sir Peter Macdonald: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that Yorks of British Overseas Airways have used the aerodrome at Malta almost since its inception? I myself have often landed at Malta in a York on the way to Cairo.
  Mr. Lindgren: I do not want to question what the hon. Gentleman has said, but British European Airways have never operated Yorks. British European Airways operated Dakotas in the first instance, and are now using Vikings, and have never used four-engined aircraft at any time.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the very grave indignation and distress caused in this loyal British Colony, and also that the heaviest aircraft can land at Luqa? Is he aware that if there is anything wrong with Luqa airport it is our responsibility to put it right?
  Mr. Lindgren: That is a question which ought to be addressed to the Colonial Office. So far as my information goes, if our good friends at Malta would consider the question of cost that might help the general discussion about the aerodrome.
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: Has not the hon. Gentleman's Department been in communication with the Secretary of State for the Colonies on this matter, and has not the possibility of improvement a' the aerodrome in Malta already been discussed?
  Mr. Lindgren: Yes, Sir. These discussions have taken place, and are taking place.

  YUGOSLAVIA (BRITISH PROPERTY)
  Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any settlement has been made in respect of the compensation claimed for British property nationalised by the Government of Yugoslavia.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): No, Sir.
  Mr. Reid: Is it not a fact that the Yugoslav Government have offered a sum less than half of the value of British assets in Yugoslavia?
  Mr. Mayhew: I cannot comment on that precisely. I can only say that negotiations are going on, and that we are hopeful of reaching agreement before very long.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether we permit intervention and complaint by foreign nationals in the case of their property, if they happen to have any, in industries nationalised by a government of similar political persuasion over here?
  Mr. Gallacher: If these property owners are having the difficulty I hope they are having, will not the hon. Gentleman ask their more fortunate fellows in this country to give them a share of the very great amount of swag they are getting out of the people of this country?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: May I have an answer to my question?
  Hon. Members: No.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: Is the hon. Gentleman aware from previous answers given in this House that the Government on no occasion have taken any action whatsoever to help British interests abroad and see that their owners receive adequate compensation? Is it to be taken from this latest case that the Government are united behind the Chancellor of the Exchequer in liquidating the British Empire, and, above all, in getting rid of its assets in the quickest way?
  Mr. Mayhew: On the contrary, we have most keenly supported British interests in this case. However, I would deplore these attempts to prejudice these negotiations, which are going satisfactorily.

  SHIP BUILDING (GERMANY AND JAPAN)
  Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is his policy regarding the expansion of shipbuilding in Germany and Japan; and the owning by those countries of a mercantile marine.
  Mr. Mayhew: The future level of shipbuilding in Western Germany is at present under consideration. The characteristics of ships which may be built are at present limited by quadripartite agreements, copies of which I am sending to
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  the hon. and gallant Member. His Majesty's Government's policy towards Japanese shipbuilding and shipping remains as stated in the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member on 31st May. The Far Eastern Commission has not yet reached agreement on levels for these industries.
  Colonel Hutchison: Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to point out that if there is a conflict of view on policy between the United States and ourselves on this matter, it is impossible for us to achieve the targets under Marshall Aid if we are not allowed to carry on the industry in which we are experts?

  PALESTINE

    Shot-down Aeroplane (Inquiry)
    Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make inquiries as to what facts were put before the inquiry ordered by the United Nations into the shooting-down by a fighter aeroplane, on 23rd September, 1948, of a civilian aircraft over Syria, resulting in the deaths of two British subjects; what conclusions were reached; what further action he proposes to take; and if he will make a full statement on the matter.
    Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what protests he has lodged with the Israeli Government about the killing of the British citizens, David Woodford and John Nixon, shot down over Israeli territory when flying as passengers in a clearly-marked unarmed civil aircraft.
    Mr. Mayhew: The incident, as a result of which two British subjects, Mr. Woodford and Mr. Nixon, lost their lives when an Arab Airways aircraft in which they were travelling was attacked and shot down by a Jewish fighter, is still under investigation by the United Nations Truce Committee. The Committee's findings have not yet been published but are expected to be made known in the near future. Until their appearance it is impossible to say what facts have been placed before the Committee or what conclusions they have reached.
    Mr. Erroll: If the position had been reversed, and it had been an Arab aircraft

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    which had shot down a passenger aircraft, would His Majesty's Government have been so dilatory?
    Mr. Mayhew: We are not being dilatory; we are merely being fair in awaiting the report.
    Dr. Segal: In view of the fact that Question No. 16 refers to an aeroplane shot down over Syrian territory and Question No. 29 refers to an aeroplane shot down over Israeli territory, how can both these Questions refer to the same aeroplane, and would my hon. Friend assist the two hon. Members to settle this point of difference between themselves?
    Mr. Mayhew: I imagine that any difference in view as to where this aeroplane was shot down will be reconciled in the report which we are awaiting.
    Major Beamish: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Jewish authorities had made any offer of compensation to the dependants who lost their lives in this case?
    Mr. Mayhew: I know of no offer, but I think that we should not put in a claim until we have seen the report.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is it not possible for an aeroplane to be hit over one territory and land in another?

    British Consular Services
    Dr. Segalasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what British Consular Services are now operating in the State of Israel.
    Mr. Mayhew: Two British Consulates-General were opened in Palestine immediately the British mandate ended, one at Haifa and the other at Jerusalem. The Consulate-General at Jerusalem is situated in that part of the city which is occupied by Arab forces.
    Dr. Segal: Is not the present position somewhat anomalous, and would it not be better if the care of British interests could be entrusted to the hands of some friendly Power, such as the United States Of America—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—or alternatively, if a British Consular Agency could be opened at Tel Aviv, where it might possibly establish some contact with the Provisional Government?
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir, I cannot agree with the suggestion that we should put consular officials in the Jewish area of Palestine at the moment. We have to balance up the advantages of co-operation anywhere with the definite risks of assassination.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the solemn pledges given by the Labour Party to the Zionists, is it not time the Government were doing something to implement those pledges?
    Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Could the hon. Gentleman explain the status of a Consul in a country whose Government His Majesty's Government do not recognise?
    Mr. Mayhew: Appointing a Consul there to look after British interests does not, of course, imply recognition.

  ANGLO-DANISH CONFERENCE
  Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the Anglo-Danish Conference held between 18th and 23rd October.
  Mr. Mayhew: I would refer the hon. Member to the joint statement issued in London at the conclusion of the talks. I have nothing to add to this statement.
  Professor Savory: Has not the hon. Gentleman seen the very detailed statement made by the Danish Foreign Minister at Copenhagen, and will he have a copy of this statement placed in the Library for the benefit of hon. Members?
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir, I will certainly consider that suggestion.

  GERMANY

    Prisons (Tuberculosis)
    Mr. Walkerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware of the high incidence of tuberculosis among the inmates of the prisons of Germany; if he is satisfied that the medical attention given to these people is of a satisfactory standard; and what is he doing to improve it.
    Mr. Mayhew: The administration of German prisons is a German responsibility. I am having inquiries made and I will write to my hon. Friend shortly.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Would the hon. Gentleman, when he is making his report on this matter, bear in mind that the incidence of tuberculosis among displaced persons in Germany is higher than among the German people themselves?
    Mr. Scollan: Will my hon. Friend compare these figures when he gets them from Germany with the rising figures of tuberculosis in Scotland?
    Mr. Awbery: Can my hon. Friend say if the doctors in the prisons are responsible to the German authorities or to the British authorities?
    Mr. Mayhew: I think that they would come under German administrators.

    Factories (Demolition)
    Mr. Walkerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that the demolition of factories in Germany has deprived the youth of that country of the opportunities of learning many trades; and whether he will stop the demolition of factories other than those engaged in producing war potential.
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. The demolition of factories in Germany has deprived German youth of the opportunities of learning no trades except warlike ones. We have demolished no factories other than Category I war plants, and not even all of these are being demolished.
    Mr. Walker: Can my hon. Friend say whether or not the recent demolition of factories in Germany is robbing the youth of that country of the opportunity of learning trades which would ensure to them a livelihood in the future, and is not this policy of the demolition of factories doing a great deal of harm and making our occupation of that country a ghastly failure?
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. We have not demolished any factories, except Category 1 war plants, and not all of them, and, therefore, the only trades which could on that account be closed to German apprentices would be war trades.
    Mr. John Hynd: Is the Minister aware that he has recently written informing me of a particular factory which has been dismantled and which he says is not a war plant?
    Mr. Mayhew: The Question is about demolition and there may be some confusion, but even if the Question were interpreted as dismantling, the answer would still be "No."

    Air Lift, Berlin
    Colonel Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the total tonnage which has been carried by civil operators on the Berlin air lift; and what percentage of the total weight carried this represents.
    Mr. Mayhew: The total tonnage carried by civilian operators from 27th July to 31st October, 1948, was 16,362 metric tons, which represented approximately 4 per cent. of the total air lift from the first flight on 28th June until 31st October.
    Colonel Hutchison: Do not these figures show to what extent the nation is indebted to private enterprise for coming to its assistance in this matter?

    Soviet Zone (Police Force)
    Mr. Blackburnasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in view of the terms of the Potsdam Agreement, what action he has taken on the establishment in the Soviet zone of Germany of an armed police force officered by former German prisoners of war.
    Mr. Mayhew: His Majesty's Government have not made representations to the Soviet Government on the subject. The Soviet Government are doubtless well aware that His Majesty's Government view with regret and disapproval the formation of a branch of the police in the Soviet zone trained and equipped along semi-military lines and including a number of former high-ranking German officers. His Majesty's Government consider that such a development is contrary to the spirit and to the letter of the Potsdam Agreement and violates specifically Article 3 of the Political Principles which calls for the abolition of all military and quasi-military organisations and the prevention of all military activity.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is it not rather peculiar that the breach of this Agreement has passed entirely unnoticed by His Majesty's Government, and were they actuated by a desire to avoid the waste of paper?
    Mr. Mayhew: We have not made representations on this point, but reserve the right to raise the question with the Soviet Government.
    Mr. Blackburn: While repudiating any suggestion of accusing His Majesty's Government in this matter, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he will see that full publicity is given to the statement that he has made today?
    Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir.

    Fishing Industry
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware of the shortage of fish in Germany while at the same time there are fishing boats and fishermen idle in the port of Bremen; and if he will remove the difficulties which prevent these men carrying out their avocation and increase the facilities for fishing.
    Mr. Mayhew: Fishing matters are now the responsibility of the German authorities. The German authorities have been authorised to construct 100 trawlers; meanwhile 15 others are being hired. So far as I am aware, there are no fishing boats or fishermen idle in the port of Bremen, which is in the United States zone of occupation, but if my hon. Friend will inform me of the difficulties he has in mind I will make inquiries.
    Mr. Awbery: Is it necessary for the Germans to have permission from the British before they can send their ships to sea?
    Commander Noble: Can the Minister say how many of the hundred fishing vessels which the Germans were authorised to construct have in fact been started?
    Mr. Mayhew: I should require notice of that question.
    Mr. Douglas Marshall: In view of the Minister's reply that the German authorities are now in charge of fishing, can he state whether Germany has, in fact, signed the International Convention on Fishing?
    Mr. Mayhew: Germany has not, Sir.

    Strike
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many
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    workers are estimated to have come out on strike on 11 th November in the Western Zones of Germany; what was the cause of the strike; and what steps are being taken to meet the demands of these workers.
    Mr. Mayhew: This strike was general, except for those workers engaged in the maintenance of certain public services, including the railways, and in work for the Occupation Forces. It was called by the trade unions primarily in protest against the economic policy being pursued by the German Economic Administration at Frankfurt, which they blame for rising prices and the disparity between the cost of living and wages. It is for the German Economic Administration at Frankfurt to take the necessary steps. The British and American Military Government had already impressed on the German authorities the need for action in the economic field.
    Mr. Piratin: But is it not the case that the British and American authorities have greater powers than the Under-Secretary intends to imply; and can they not really direct in some way that steps should be taken there so that the cost of living shall not increase as it has done?
    Mr. Mayhew: It is true that we could have extensive powers in this matter; but at the same time it is also our policy to throw responsibility on to the Germans themselves.
    Mr. Scollan: Did the Under-Secretary intend to imply in his original answer that the German authorities were not making the best of the assets placed at their disposal by the Allied Governments?
    Mr. Mayhew: In the last part of my reply I said that we had impressed on the German authorities the need for action in the economic field. My right hon. Friend has also called for a report on this question, following upon the strike.
    Mr. Scollan: In order to clarify the position, would the Under-Secretary clearly state to the House whether this is not an implication that the present German Government set up by the Allied Forces is not making the best use of what has been placed at their disposal by the Allied Governments?
    Mr. Gallacher: Come on: answer.

    Berlin (Proposed Four-Power Meeting)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will agree to the request, made by Mr. Trygve Lie and Dr. Evatt, urging the leaders of the four Great Powers to meet to consider further the crisis in Berlin.
    Mr. Mayhew: Our reply has just been published. I will circulate a copy of it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the fact that our refusal to agree to the request of these two eminent United Nations' people will be regarded throughout the world as hostile to the United Nations and as a thoroughly unreasonable attitude, will there be an opportunity to debate the question in this House?
    Mr. Mayhew: I entirely disagree with all the assumptions in that question. The question of a Debate is one for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.
    Several Hon. Members—
    Mr. Scollan: Could the hon. Gentleman say—
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Henry Strauss.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: Could the Under-Secretary inform the House under which Article of the Charter these two gentlemen purported to act in putting forward this request?
    Mr. Mayhew: They acted in pursuance of a resolution proposed by the Mexican Government and approved by the Plenary Assembly.
    Several Hon. Members—
    Mr. Scollan: Might I ask—
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member will kindly wait till he is called before asking a question. Mr. Wilson Harris.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Can the Under-Secretary say whether this step was concerted in any way with the Security Council; and if not, how comes it that the Secretary-General, who is the servant of the Security Council as much as of the General Assembly, is now taking this prominent part in an action which appears to cut clean across the procedure of the Security Council?
    Mr. Mayhew: I understand that this was not a measure concerted with the
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    Security Council. On that point I have no doubt that the Secretary-General felt justified in supporting the initiative taken by the President as President of the Assembly.
    Mr. Scollan: Is not the Under-Secretary aware that I have put down a Motion, which should have appeared on the Order Paper yesterday? I hope my hon. Friend will look at that and support it.
    Mr. Warbey: Will my hon. Friend pay a properly deserved tribute to these two great world statesmen who are properly carrying out their duties in accordance with the Preamble of the United Nations' Charter?
    Mr. Mayhew: We appreciate the spirit in which this initiative was taken. Our attitude to the initiative is set out in the reply which I shall circulate.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Under-Secretary aware that it is time that orthodox diplomatic procedure was cut out—because it is getting the people of the world nowhere?
    Mr. Gallacher: The Tories do not want that.
    Following is the reply of His Majesty's Government:
    I have the honour to thank you for your letter of 13th November, 1948, addressed to Sir A. Cadogan, about the Berlin question. It has been given to the Prime Minister and has been carefully studied by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom appreciate the spirit of helpfulness which impelled you to write this letter and are anxious to make their attitude clear. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have noted the statements in your letter to the effect that the Great Powers should lend their full and active support to the efforts at mediation in the Berlin dispute by the President of the Security Council. I desire to take this opportunity to assure you that His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are fully determined to aid the President and the other members of the Security Council in the steps taken by them to find a solution of the Berlin question.
    His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom desire to recall that, in accordance with the Charter, they made every effort to resolve the Berlin question by means of direct negotiation with the Soviet Government in Moscow, and that they were frustrated by the failure of the Soviet Government to send instructions to their Military Governor in Berlin in conformity with the understanding which had been reached between the representatives of the Western Powers and Premier Stalin during the discussion in Moscow. As the result of this failure His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, in agreement with the Governments of the United States and France, felt obliged to refer the question to the Security Council, where, in common with eight other members of the Security Council, they accepted a draft resolution. It will be remembered that the representative of the Soviet Union challenged the competence of the United Nations to deal with this question at all and, in the event, voted against the resolution. It is the Soviet veto which stands in the way of further progress in this matter. As was, however, stated publicly at the time, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, together with the Governments of the United States and France, expressed their willingness to be guided by the principles embodied in the draft resolution and pointed out that the Berlin question was still on the agenda of the Security Council.
    In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom feel that the most hopeful method of reaching a speedy and satisfactory solution of this difficult problem would be to leave it, as it stands at present, in the hands of the Security Council. As they have repeatedly made clear, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are fully prepared to agree to a Four-Power meeting to discuss Berlin and other outstanding German questions as soon as the present restrictions on communications, transport and trade between Berlin and the Western Zones of Germany have been removed.
    I have no doubt that you would wish the President of the Security Council to be fully informed of this exchange of views and I am, accordingly, sending him a copy of this letter.

    Ruhr Industries
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the expressed views of the political parties and trade unions in the British zone of Germany in favour of the public ownership of the heavy industries of the Ruhr were taken into account in formulating the policy recently announced for their future control and management.
    Mr. Mayhew: The preamble of the new laws regarding the coal and steel industries included a statement that the final decision on ownership would be left to a freely elected German Government. This statement was specifically included in order to take account of the expressed views of the trade unions in favour of public ownership, and of the differing views of the political parties. In formulating this policy in all its aspects, the various views of the political parties and trade unions were fully taken into account.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: While I did not hear all of that reply, may I ask is my hon. Friend aware of the fact that the recently announced decision about the future of the Ruhr industries has been viewed with considerable dismay by a large number of the German people, and in view of that will he not put out a statement quite clearly explaining the apparent change of policy which has taken place so far as this country is concerned.
    Mr. Mayhew: I am not aware of any just cause for dismay on the part of the German people in this regard. There is no change of policy, but rather a development of policy, and the final decision is for the German people themselves.
    Major Beamish: Why should the German people be allowed to decide on the future ownership of the Ruhr steel industry when the British people are not able to decide on the future of their own industry?
    Mr. Mayhew: Both peoples have the right and opportunity to make their own choice, and one of them has already made the right choice.
    Major Beamish: Then let us have a General Election.
    Mr. Piratin: The hon. and gallant Member will then lose his seat.

  ANGLO-POLISH AGREEMENT
  Major Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will take steps to terminate the AngloPolish Agreement of the 25th August, 1939, in view of the fact that there is no agreed interpretation of this treaty with the Polish Government, and in view of the fact that important articles in this treaty are no longer observed.
  Mr. Mayhew: We are considering this matter.
  Major Beamish: Is it not a fact that the Polish Government through their Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs repudiated their part of this agreement many months ago, and does not common sense dictate that we should also give notice of denunciation of this Treaty which has quite obviously become a dead letter?
  Mr. Mayhew: As I have said, we are looking into it.
  Professor Savory: Why have His Majesty's Government made no attempt to implement the important provisions of the Treaty; why have they allowed the Treaty to become an absolutely dead letter?
  Mr. Mayhew: if the Treaty is carefully read, it will be seen to be highly inappropriate to the present situation in Europe.

  SHANGHAI (BRITISH INVESTMENTS)
  Mr. Vernon Bartlettasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the estimated value of British investments in Shanghai; and whether he has consulted or will consult the U.S. Government with a view to taking an immediate decision to send an Anglo-American force to that city should the situation in China continue to deteriorate.
  Mr. Mayhew: The value in 1941 of British investments in Shanghai has been estimated at £107 million; and their present replacement value is probably still not less than that figure. Intergovernmental consultations of the kind suggested have not taken place, nor are they contemplated by His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Bartlett: But will my hon. Friend bear in mind, not only the fact that to a considerable extent the rations of our people depend upon the defence of these interests in Shanghai, but also the fact that if the authority of the Nanking Government were to break down, a very large number of Chinese would also be grateful for any protection we could give them?
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, we are aware of that, of course.
  Squadron-Leader Fleming: In view of the fact that quite recently it has been reported that the authorities in Shanghai advised British officials to evacuate, are no steps being taken to protect those people by our own Navy?
  Mr. Mayhew: We are making plans, and we are in touch with the United States' Ambassador.
  Mr. Harrison: Would the Minister consider sending, instead of a military force as suggested in the Question, a quantity of rice to feed the citizens of Shanghai, which might do more good than a military force?
  Sir Ronald Ross: In view of the advantage that might accrue to the Chinese as well as to British interests in Shanghai, is the only policy the Government are contemplating at present the evacuation of Britsh personnel rather than protecting Shanghai?
  Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. I should make clear that when I said plans were being made, I meant for the protection and not the evacuation of British and United States nationals in China.

  VISAS (U.S. CITIZENS)
  Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the decision to abolish the necessity for a visa for U.S. citizens coming to the United Kingdom; and why this arrangement is not reciprocal.
  Mr. Mayhew: This decision is in line with the policy which my right hon. Friend has at different times strongly supported, namely, to reduce to a minimum the restrictions which at present hamper the freedom of movement of the peoples of the world. The decision,

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  although made unilaterally, immediately elicited a decision from the United States Government to waive their visa charges in respect of United Kingdom visitors to the United States. Full reciprocity in this matter is made difficult by the special immigration problems of the United States.
  Mr. Piratin: While the House welcomes the implementation of any measure by the Foreign Secretary to make easier travel between this country and other countries, is it not a fact that United States citizens are being given advantages which British citizens have not got; and is not the Minister aware—indeed, he is—that a certain very honest and respectable British citizen namely, the hon. Member for Mile End, was refused a visa for the United States, while we in turn are to allow any amount of riff-raff into this country?
  Mr. Gallacher: Will Parnell Thomas get in?
  Mr. Bartlett: Is it not a fact that a considerable number of European countries who are anxious to develop their tourist traffic have already also abolished visas for American citizens?
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir—
  Mr. Gallacher: American graft is coming in.
  Mr. Mayhew: —and partly for that reason in this case it would be difficult to justify full reciprocity unless there were also reciprocity with many other European countries. For that reason it is difficult for the Government of the United States to grant full reciprocity.
  Mr. Keeling: Is the unwillingness of the United States to alter their law due to the fact that they are unwilling to grant a visa to the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin)?

  BRITISH LEGATION, ADDIS ABABA
  Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the numbers of the staff at the British Legation at Addis Ababa.
  Mr. Mayhew: The staff at the British Legation, Addis Ababa, at present totals 18, including His Majesty's Minister.
  Professor Savory: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that this staff is adequate, in view of the enormous increase in the personnel of the Soviet Legation, and the attempts at Communist propaganda and peaceful penetration on exactly the same lines as those revealed by the judicial inquiry held in Canada.
  Mr. Mayhew: We cannot expect the rise and fall of our establishments in foreign missions to keep pace with those of the Soviet missions.
  Mr. Gallacher: They are everywhere.

  WEST INDIES

    Emigration
    Mr. T. Reidasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many West Indian emigrants can be settled under the Evans Settlement Commission in British Guiana.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Rees-Williams): No precise estimate is possible. The Commission consider that, "if all their recommendations can be fully implemented" about 100,000 men, women and children, including about 25,000 adult workers might be absorbed in British Guiana and British Honduras over a period of some 10 years. Probably about half that number would be in British Guiana.
    Mr. Reid: May I ask whether my hon. Friend proposes to select from this bulky report, practical schemes which may alleviate the over-population in the West Indian Islands?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) on 3rd November.
    Mr. Driberg: In view of the desperate over-population and unemployment in some of these Islands, such as Jamaica, can my hon. Friend say how soon the ten-year period he refers to is likely to start?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: I cannot say that until the negotiations now proceeding between the Governments of British Guiana and British Honduras and also the

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    Colonial Development Corporation have proceeded some way further than at present.

    Sugar Industry, Jamaica
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to encourage the expansion and modernisation of the sugar industry in Jamaica, with a view to lessening the United Kingdom's dollar expenditure on sugar imports and to providing more employment for Jamaican workers in better conditions than in the past.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: Since 1947, compulsory contributions from the export price of sugar have been paid into three funds. These are a Price Stabilisation Fund, a Rehabilitation Fund to encourage improvement of capital equipment and a Labour Welfare Fund. These funds tend to create stability and encourage increased production. Money paid to these funds and to certain other funds for development of the industry, for example, for research, is free of Income Tax. Every assistance is given to the procurement of machinery for the industry; tractors have been exempted from import duty. His Majesty's Government have undertaken to find a market for all Jamaica's export of sugar till the end of 1952. Production has increased.
    Mr. Driberg: While thanking my hon. Friend for that very informative answer, may I ask him whether the Commission which is inquiring into the sugar industry in other parts of the West Indies will include Jamaica in its terms of reference? Is my hon. Friend also aware that many thousands of workers in this industry are still housed in disgracefully insanitary barracks?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: I should require notice of the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary. As to the second, I am aware that housing conditions in Jamaica leave much to be desired.
    Mr. Stanley: Is there not a fear in some quarters that use of the most recent machinery on sugar estates might lead to increased unemployment among sugar workers at a time when their absorption in other industries is almost impossible?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: I believe that fear has been expressed, but to what extent it is justified I cannot at this moment say.

    Smallholdings, Jamaica (Ex-Service Men)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the average size of the smallholdings on which ex-Service men have been settled in Jamaica; how many ex-Service men are now settled in such holdings; how many of them had previous experience or training in agriculture; and what percentage of these holdings are adequately supplied with water.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: One thousand two hundred and sixty-four ex-Service men have been settled on smallholdings of six to seven acres. It is not possible to say how many had previous experience or training in agriculture. Approximately, 35 per cent. of the holdings are at present adequately supplied with water.
    Mr. Driberg: Is my hon. Friend aware that the size of these holdings is quite uneconomically small and that on the whole this scheme, with some notable exceptions, has really been rather an expensive flop?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: This is primarily a matter for the Government of Jamaica, but the amount of land available for agricultural settlement there, owing to the size of the Island, is, of course, limited.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been great discontent in Jamaica among ex-Service men, particularly those of the First World War, about the quality of the land which they were given? It is not only unfertile and barren, but is also ill supplied with water.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: As I have said, this is primarily a matter for the Government of Jamaica. No doubt the hon. and gallant Gentleman is aware that they now have wide powers.

  CYPRUS (DISORDERS)
  Mr. T. Reidasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the recent disorders

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  between rival Greek trade unions in Cyprus and on the dynamite outrages that occurred.
  Mr. Rees-Williams: Yes, Sir. As the statement is rather long I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Stanley: Is the hon. Member satisfied that all measures necessary have been taken in Cyprus to maintain law and order?
  Mr. Rees-Williams: That does not arise out of the Question on the Order Paper.
  Mr. Stanley: The Question is with regard to acts of violence which have occurred in Cyprus. Surely a question asking whether suitable measures have been taken to prevent similar acts of violence recurring in the future, arises out of the original Question?
  Mr. Rees-Williams: The right hon. Gentleman asked my opinion. If he wants my opinion on this matter, perhaps he will put down a Question.
  Following is the statement:
  There are two groups of Greek trade unions in Cyprus; the "old" trade unions under the leadership of the Pan-Cyprian Labour Federation, which is dominated by the Left-Wing Akel party, and the "new" trade unions, a comparatively recent growth sponsored by Right-Wing parties. Rivalry between the two groups is taking the form of a political struggle between them, which has in recent months assumed an increasingly violent character. Since 1st June there have been 29 incidents in which dynamite has been used and 74 cases of assault, malicious injuries and arson, credibly related to conflicts between rival trade unions. Of the complainants in recorded cases, 120 belong to the Right-Wing and nine to the Left-Wing. Fifty-one prosecutions have resulted in the cases of assault, and most of them are now before the courts. The investigations into dynamite outrages, which have been committed under cover of darkness, have not yet resulted in prosecutions.
  I should add that on 11th November the Acting General Secretary of Akel invited foreign Press correspondents to meet him and is reported in some local papers to have admitted the complete
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  identification of Akel with Communism. Confirmation of his actual statements is being sought but has not yet reached my right hon. Friend. The Government of Cyprus are taking strenuous action to end the campaign of violence. In doing so they naturally have the full support of my right hon. Friend.

  AFRICAN COLONIES

    Education
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken by the Government of Kenya, Tanganyika, Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland to provide schools for the common education of the children of all races.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: None, Sir. The policy adopted in these territories has been to base education on the children's native culture.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of the fact that education is a powerful instrument in bringing different communities together, may I urge my hon. Friend to reconsider his attitude on this question?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: This is the attitude we have been advised to take on the very best educational advice. I would certainly not reconsider it without full consultation with these experts.
    Mr. Rankin: Has that educational advice been unanimous?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: So far as I am aware, it has been.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Africans, Indians, Europeans and Arabs are studying at Makerere College, Uganda; and whether it is intended to develop this college as a university college for students of all races.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: There are 204 Africans, 14 Arabs and no Indians or Europeans. It is the ultimate aim to develop Makerere as a university college for students of all races. The immediate aim, however, must be to concentrate primarily on providing higher education for Africans.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of the fact that my hon. Friend has adopted the idea of

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    a common education at the university level, will he bear in mind that it is just as important at the primary level?

    Alake of Abeokuta
    Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement regarding the present position of the Alake of Abeokuta.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: The Alake left Abeokuta on 29th July after demonstrations against him had taken place. He then took up residence in a neighbouring Province, where, I understand, he is still considering his future.
    Mr. Erroll: What do the British Government intend to do about his future and the future of the people over whom he was formerly ruling with considerable benevolence?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: That is a matter for the people over whom he was formerly ruling.

  MALAYA

    Captured Arms (Origin)
    Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the countries of origin of the arms captured from the Malayan terrorists.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: The majority of the arms captured from the bandits in Malaya are of British, though some are of Japanese, origin. In addition, a few Dutch and American weapons, the former from the campaigns of 1941–42, the latter from Force 136, have also been recovered and one old Bren gun made in Czechoslovakia bearing the emblem of Nationalist China from which it probably came.
    Mr. Awbery: Is my hon. Friend aware that we dropped arms to these insurgents when they were resisters, and is he satisfied that the arms now captured are the arms dropped to them from the air?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: Yes, Sir, substantially I am.
    Mr. Piratin: Can the Under-Secretary also say whether he is satisfied that these men put up a good fight with the arms they got from the British authorities during the war?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: That is another question.

    Banishments
    Sir Peter Macdonaldasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why and in what circumstances the power of banishment was refused to the High Commissioner in Malaya during the post-war period; whether this power has now been fully restored; and how many persons have come under the effect of it since its restoration.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: The High Commissioner's power of banishment is conferred by law, and the law has not been abrogated. From time to time there has been consultation between the authorities in Malaya and the Secretary of State as to the extent to which this power should be exercised without prior reference to the Secretary of State, but (apart from a period during which the deportation of British subjects was not permitted) at no time has any request by the local authorities for extending the categories of cases in which they could take action on their own initiative been refused by the Secretary of State. There were no banishments between the restoration of civil government in April, 1946, and December, 1946. There were 193 in 1947, and there have been 472 to date in 1948.
    Sir P. Macdonald: Is it not a fact that the civil authorities there were barred from using their powers of banishment from the time of liberation until quite recently when the emergency powers came into effect?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: That is not so.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Will not the Under-Secretary agree that there is a difference imposed from the Colonial Office in the use of the powers in the Singapore and Federated Territories?
    Mr. Rees-Williams: There is a difference in the powers sought, but not in the powers granted.

  HONG KONG (ILLEGAL EXPORTS)
  Mr. Harrisonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the present conditions in China, he will take every possible step to ensure

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  that no illegal exports of valuable goods are permitted through the port of Hong Kong; and whether he will also tighten up the customs examinations between Kowloon and the Chinese hinterland.
  Mr. Rees-Williams: I am communicating with the Governor of Hong Kong, and will write to my hon. Friend as soon as I receive the Governor's reply.
  Mr. Harrison: Does my hon. Friend appreciate, in present unfortunate circumstances in China, the importance of stopping all illegal traffic at this juncture?
  Mr. Rees-Williams: We have always appreciated the necessity of stopping illegal traffic and have always done our best to do so.

  ARMED FORCES (PAY AND ALLOWANCES)
  Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on pay and allowances for officers and men in the Armed Forces.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): If the hon. Member will put down a Question next week, I hope to be able to make a statement then.
  Mr. Cobb: While my right hon. Friend is considering this, will he not overlook the question of the Women's Services, in which junior officers are now being advised that they ought to have a private income of £100 a year in order to carry out their job properly?
  Mr. Alexander: Perhaps my hon. Friend will await the statement.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Eggs
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Food what is the value of the dollars or other hard currency spent during the past year on eggs in shell and powdered and dried eggs, respectively.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): For the year ended 30th September, 1948, the values were £6,870,000 for shell eggs and £3,681,000 for powdered and dried eggs. These sums we spent almost entirely in Canada.
    Sir I. Fraser: Would it not be much more satisfactory to farmers and domestic poultry keepers, and very much more agreeable to consumers, if some or all of this money were spent on bringing foodstuffs here, so that eggs could be produced in this country?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. We have had to decrease the rate of purchase of eggs and egg products from dollar areas, but I do not think consumers would wish it to be decreased any further. At the same time we are increasing our imports of cereal feedingstuffs very largely, and hens are now receiving three times the amount of rationed food that they were getting a year ago.

    Diseased Meat (Prosecution)
    Mr. Royleasked the Minister of Food if his attention has been called to a case in Lancashire of which details have been sent to him, in which certain persons have used diseased meat from horses and cattle for the manufacture of food for human consumption; and what steps he proposes to take to ensure that such misdemeanour is impossible in the future.
    Mr. Strachey: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Burke), on 11th November.
    Mr. Royle: Although the steps that have been taken already in this matter are greatly appreciated, would my right hon. Friend consider one further safeguard—that of asking all local authorities to undertake regular inspection of all premises where manufactured meat is prepared?
    Mr. Strachey: I sympathise with my hon. Friend's objective, but I think that is more a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, under whose authority these inspections take place.
    Mr. Royle: Would my right hon. Friend consult with the Minister of Health?
    Mr. Gerald Williams: Can the Minister say whether horseflesh was used in this case for human consumption?
    Mr. Strachey: In the Burnley case, yes.
    Mr. Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he gave an answer to a

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    Question I put to him about a year ago, in which he said that horseflesh was never used in this country for such a purpose?
    Mr. Strachey: An offence was committed in this case, and penalties were enforced by the court.

    Syrup (Points)
    Captain John Crowderasked the Minister of Food why eight points have to be given up for a 1 lb. tin of syrup when a 2 lb. tin can be obtained for 14 points.
    Mr. Strachey: In order to encourage the sale of the larger tins, which are much more economical in tinplate.
    Captain Crowder: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider this matter a little further, because it is hard on a person living alone, who has only one ration book, and who may not want 2 lbs.? Surely the points value should be halved?
    Mr. Strachey: I appreciate that point, but we cannot distribute present quantities of syrup, owing to the shortage of tinplate, unless we did what we are doing now.
    Mr. Keeling: Why not try putting up the price of the smaller tin?
    Mr. Strachey: In this case we much prefer rationing to be by points rather than price.

    Sugar Allocation (Co-operative Societies)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Food what percentage of the extra 22,000 tons of sugar allocated to cake and flour confectioners and to biscuit manufacturers has been and will be allocated to co-operative societies.
    Mr. Strachey: Twenty-two and one-half per cent.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Food what percentage of the sugar allocated to cake and flour confectioners and to biscuit manufacturers was allocated to co-operative societies in 1946–47 and 1947–48, respectively.
    Mr. Strachey: About 10 per cent. in each case.
    Mr. Tiffany: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the sugar allocation is based on the 1938 datum period, and that since then the Co-operative movement has in-
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    creased its membership by 1¼ million? As the movement has 25 per cent. of the bread trade of this country, a 10 per cent. normal sugar allocation means that the majority of its members do not get a fair allocation of cakes?
    Mr. Strachey: These considerations were in our minds when we made this allocation to the Co-operative movement.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Food whether the allocation of extra sugar recently made for manufacturing purposes to co-operative societies was calculated on the same basis as the allocation made at the same time to firms engaged in the manufacture of biscuits and the business of cake and flour confectionery.
    Mr. Strachey: The Co-operative authorities will themselves allocate their share of the extra sugar for manufacturing purposes among their societies. Other manufacturers of biscuits and cake and flour confectionery will receive extra supplies on the basis of the sugar they used in a datum period.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why this change was not announced in advance, so that anyone who was in the position to take advantage of the new arrangement could put in a claim and receive simultaneous benefits?
    Mr. Strachey: Strong representations were made to us by the Co-operative movement in this matter. They did not wish for notice, and we took the opportunity, when more sugar became available, to go some way towards righting a manifest injustice.
    Mr. Nicholson: Did the right hon. Gentleman receive any representations in a contrary sense from the rest of the trade?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir, I received several deputations. I noted their representations carefully, but I could not agree with them.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Why was not the change announced in advance, so that anyone who could take advantage of the new conditions could have an opportunity to apply at the same time as the Cooperative movement, and receive extra benefits?
    Mr. Strachey: It was announced in advance. The change has not taken place yet; it takes place next month.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Has the right hon. Gentleman any sugar left to enable him to meet representations from other objectors who have not yet had the opportunity of making their representations to him in the same way as the co-operative societies?
    Mr. Strachey: With any given quantity of sugar, when increased quantites are given to one user, they must have an effect on the amount available to others, but with this qualification, it is true that there is some over to meet further representations.
    Mr. Tiffany: As the co-operative societies are still receiving less than their share, will my right hon. Friend be prepared to accept representations from the movement?
    Mr. Strachey: I will consider them

  SOFT DRINKS
  Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Food what increase in the supplies of soft drinks there has been since the industry was freed from control.
  Mr. Strachey: About 25 per cent.
  Sir I. Fraser: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the economic and gastronomic advantages of taking off other controls?
  Mr. Strachey: I think the increased supply had something to do with the fact that we allocated extra sugar to the industry.
  Mr. Anthony Greenwood: What increase in price has there been since control was removed?
  Mr. Strachey: There has not been any marked increase in price.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: Is it not a fact that the price per bottle has increased from 2s. 6d. to 3s. 6d.?
  Mr. Strachey: No, Sir; according to my information there has been a spread in prices. The cheaper varieties have decreased, and the dearer varieties have increased.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Tomorrow (Thursday) after the Committee stage of the Wireless Telegraphy Bill, we shall ask the House to consider the Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means relating to the Prize Bill.
On Friday, after the two Second Readings already announced for consideration, we shall resume and hope to conclude the Committee stage of the Special Roads Money Resolution.

BILLS PRESENTED
  CINEMATOGRAPH FILM PRODUCTION (SPECIAL LOANS) BILL
  "to make temporary provision for the lending of money to be employed in financing the production or distribution of cinematograph films; to provide for the taking over by a national corporation established for the purpose aforesaid of the assets and liabilities of National Film Finance Company Limited; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Wilson; supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Bottomley; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow. and to be printed. [Bill 18.]
  PENSIONS APPEAL TRIBUNALS BILL
  "to amend the Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act, 1943," presented by Mr. Marquand; supported by Mr. Alexander, Mr. Ede, Mr. Shinwell, Mr. Henderson, Mr. Barnes, the Attorney-General and Mr. John Dugdale; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 19.]
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Proceedings in Committee on Iron and Steel [Money] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. H. Morrison.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  IRON AND STEEL BILL
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [15th November], "That the Bill be now read a Second time," which Amendment was to leave out "now," and at the end of the Question to add, "upon this day six months."—[Mr. Lyttelton.]
  Question again proposed, "That 'now' stand part of the Question."
  3.33 p.m.
  Sir Andrew Duncan: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, not last night but on other occasions, has rightly warned the nation of the fate that may befall the country if we should be defeated in the present economic struggle. The iron and steel industry and the steel-using industries have been greatly strengthening the confidence of the country by the contributions which they have been making to the national requirements in these critical times. Time alone will tell what prejudice may result from the introduction of this Bill now and the controversy which it is bound to create. But it is clear at the outset, and it is a very significant fact, that the provisions of this Bill can do nothing to add to or strengthen the industry's contribution to the national needs now or in the immediate future. Nor can it do anything either, in the ultimate, to foster and further the efficient organisation of the industry as a whole.
  The Government introduced a Motion to this House in May, 1946, in which they asked the House to approve the decision of the Government to bring forward proposals for transferring to the ownership of the nation appropriate sections of the iron and steel industry with a view to its, that is to say, the industry's, efficient organisation in the public interest. It is no part of the proposals of this Bill to make provision for the efficiency of the industry. Indeed, the Bill splits certain sections of the iron and steel industry into sectors to be acquired, sectors to be licensed and sectors to be left free. It splits other very important sections of the industry into sectors to be acquired because the parent company is acquired, and other sectors that are to be entirely free.
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  For example, in the case of heavy forgings, 45 per cent. of capacity is to be acquired because the parent company is acquired, and 55 per cent. of production capacity will be free. With drop forgings, 16 per cent. is to be acquired and 84 per cent. left free; steel castings, 23 per cent. to be acquired, and 77 per cent. left free; steel wire, 60 per cent. to be acquired, and 40 per cent. left free; and bright steel bars, 40 per cent. to be acquired and 60 per cent. to be free. Put another way, the Government propose to acquire 107 firms out of the over 2,000 that are engaged in the iron and steel industry and are at present under the supervision of the Steel Board. These 107 firms are described as main producing units in certain sections of the iron and steel industry, but they are likewise main producing units in industrial activities that branch out right into the contracting and engineering industries, and many of them have subsidiary companies overseas.
  These proposals cut right across all the machinery, both industrial and Governmental, which has been built up in recent years for the better ordering and more efficient functioning of all sections of the iron and steel industry. This industry, under the Steel Board, has afforded the most effective demonstration of the practical possibilities of effective co-operation between the Government and industry. But all that goes for nothing, and, at a time when the industry's contribution is still most vital, and when the industry is engaged in great development plans, this Bill is introduced, with all its conflict and controversy. It may well do serious damage to the progress of these development plans. In their attempt to justify their action in this regard, the Government make no effort to prove how efficiency is to be improved, but plunge the industry into controversy as to what happened two decades before the war. They seek not only to dispossess, but to discredit.
  For instance, the charge is made that, between the wars, the policy in this industry was restrictive; that is to say, as the Minister of Supply put it the other day, it maintained productive capacity below demand in order to bolster up prices. Statistics available to everyone, and therefore, certainly available to the right

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  hon. Gentleman, refute this charge completely. It was a period of great expansion, between 1913 and 1937, not only in America, Russia and Germany, but in many other parts of the world. Between 1913 and 1937, production of steel ingots and castings increased by 78 per cent. in the world, by 61 per cent. in the United States and by 70 per cent. in the United Kingdom.
  But that is not all. In the shorter period between 1929 and 1937, the output of ingots and castings increased by 11 per cent. in the world, by 35 per cent. in Great Britain, and fell by 10 per cent. in the United States. The years 1913, 1929 and 1937 were all years at the top of a cyclical boom, and, therefore, are a fair comparison. There is no evidence in these figures of maintaining a total productive capacity below potential demand. Indeed, it shows that throughout the whole of these years there was a large excess of capacity in this country.
  By 1937 the steel industry, working under Government supervision, had embarked confidently upon a policy of reconstruction and expansion. It was spending during the five years before the war on new plant at the rate of £10 million a year. The £50 million spent in those five pre-war years is the equivalent of something like £120 to £150 million today. That pre-war programme was not a spurt but the earlier stages of a continuous plan of reconstruction and expansion. By 1939 the annual rate of expenditure was increasing. When war broke out we had in this country many schemes which were still incomplete, some which had just begun and some which were still in contemplation. But for the war, the six years between 1939 and 1945 would have shown continuous modernisation and development in the iron and steel industry of this country.
  When the Caretaker Government in May, 1945, invited this industry to submit within six months a plan of development over the next five years, they were able to do it because they were organised and had already given great thought to this subject. That plan has never been challenged. The Government rightly took time to consider it. The plan was submitted to the Government in December, 1945, and general agreement was given
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  in this House by the responsible Ministers in May, 1946.
  Now, already, before anything of a major character can be gained from this expansion, the industry has been able to make a magnificent contribution to postwar recovery. Export targets of steel and steel-using products as a whole have been set at 100 per cent. over pre-war, while for the country generally a target of only 50 per cent. has been set. Even this high figure of 100 per cent. has already been reached and in addition the country, as the Chancellor announced the other day, has been able to carry on a considerably bigger capital development at home than was looked for in the economic survey a year ago. These achievements have been based on the record levels of steel production.
  It may well be that greater quantities of steel could be used if they were available. There are, of course, all the postwar accumulated demands for machinery, plant and other things that use steel products which could not be obtained during the war, and there are also the vast post-war reconstruction demands. This inflated and accumulated demand for steel of all kinds makes the steel position tight not only in Great Britain but all over the world, tight even in America where a vast war expansion was engaged in. I say, therefore, quite confidently, that the present ability of this industry to respond as it has done is indeed evidence that our steel industry before the war had already in being a substantial capacity margin which has proved of great value now.
  There are one or two points on this question of expansion which I would ask the House to note. With its growing production, this industry is already hard up against the upper limit of supplies of coke and coking coal. We are having to use cokes of lower quality today than were ever used in this industry before the war. Here is a problem within the Government's own responsibility, for they own the coalmines of the country. What are they doing about forward development of coking coal? What are they doing about coke oven development, for they own half the coke oven capacity of the country? So far as the steel industry is concerned, in respect of the half it owns, development schemes are well under way, new coke ovens already coming into operation and

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  many others being well advanced. However, there is still the greatest anxiety on the part of the industry in respect of the supplies of coking coal, and, indeed, it is admitted by the Coal Board that there is at present an insufficiency of coking coal for the steel industry.
  The other point I should like to raise in this connection is that discussions have gone on between the Government and the industry not only on the forward development of capacity in this country but in the wider context of Western European development policy. I am glad to be able to say that there is no difference of view at all between the Government and the steel industry as to the provision which should be made by the early 1950's. Indeed, examination has indicated that on a full employment basis in this country the demand for steel is likely to be 18 million tons in the early 1950's. Arrangements already made in the steel industry will provide this required capacity. I find it very difficult to understand what the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant last night by envisaging a possible quarrel between steel makers and the Government on forward planning. Here provision is made until 1953, and long before 1953 is reached the Government of the day, whatever it may be, will, I imagine, regard it as its duty to discuss with the steel industry what the requirements still further ahead are to be. There will be ample notice then for the Government to take any action they might regard as necessary if they find any reluctance on the part of the steel trade to do its duty. I have no fear whatever that the public purpose which animates the steel industry today is a complete assurance that public purpose will always animate it.
  But if we have this capacity by 1953, are we going to have coking coal and coke to make use of it? As recently as August last, the chief mining engineer, for development and planning, of the National Coal Board referred in a paper at the summer school of the Board to the almost insuperable difficulty of forward planning of capital development in view of the great uncertainties about the future demand for coal. He said:
  "There are so many imponderables, conflicting factors and complications, that the formulation of a plan might well be dismissed as an insuperable problem."
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  He went on to say, however, that the Board had set themselves the almost impossible task of producing a first essay at a plan in a year's time. It does take time, but I ask the question: When will there be a final plan, and when will the plan ultimately be realised? Will it be in time for the increasing capacity as it becomes available in the steel industry?
  A second charge has been made in respect of those pre-war years, and that is also completely unfounded. It is that the industry pursued a price policy to acquire monopoly profits. Here again I regret that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply should have associated himself with a charge of that kind. This charge certainly could not be true in respect of the years prior to protection. For a stretch of 10 to 15 years, the return on capital in this industry did not average more than 2 per cent. During that period, too, the consumption of steel never reached more than 9 million tons and at times was as low as 4 million tons. In 1932 the total world consumption of steel fell to 40 per cent. of what it had been in 1929.
  No one could blame the British steel industry for such a catastrophic fall in world consumption. As we were reminded yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), we are discussing these matters today at a time when full employment misleads us in our judgments of these years with their merciless vicissitudes. We had a timely reminder recently in the "Board of Trade Journal" of what we might be suffering in this country but for Marshall Aid. The "Journal" says:
  "But for that aid the general dislocation of industrial activities in this country might well have brought unemployment figures up to a million and a half, and would have become progressively worse as a lower standard of living resulted in a diminished productive effort."
  We had no Marshall Aid in the 'twenties or early' thirties, and no equivalent of it. In these years the steel industry, in common with other industries in this country, experienced periods of intense depression, accentuated by dumping from other countries which themselves were protected. It was a period of low prices, financial losses, and privation and hardship for all engaged in the industry.
  The real story of these lean years reflects great credit on the leaders of both

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  sides of the industry for the way in which they maintained industrial peace, mutual understanding and good will. I should like to take the opportunity of associating myself with the hon. Member for East Swansea (Mr. Mort) in the tribute he paid to John Hodge and Sir Arthur Pugh, great leaders in this industry in those times. I would include their successors in leadership in that category also. I do not believe that anything which the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said yesterday about rumblings in the industry meant that he would not associate himself with the tribute paid by the hon. Member for East Swansea. Indeed, I want to take the opportunity of saying that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary is highly respected throughout the steel industry, not only for his character but for his great skill in the craft, and he knows well that on both sides of this industry there has been leadership of first-class quality.
  It was a period, also, when steel firms were co-operating with other industries in trying to secure to this country export orders that would bring a load to their mills. It was a period, too, when our steel-making firms were themselves searching world markets for engineering contracts that would bring a load to their mills. The classic example is Dorman Long and the great Sydney Bridge. Dorman Long had often supplied structural material for bridges but they had not previously built a bridge. They undertook that vast contract and carried it out with such complete success that besides bringing 50,000 tons load to their steel mills, they obtained a great many other contracts for bridges in other parts of the world.
  From 1933 onwards the position certainly improved. The departure of the United Kingdom from the Gold Standard achieved a better relationship between sterling and the value of other currencies and, in addition, the introduction of tariffs in this country put the British iron and steel industry in a somewhat comparable position with its competitors. However, unlike other industries which had received the tariff before, as in the case of motor cars, and unlike other industries which then received the tariff, the conferment of tariffs on steel was coupled by the Government of the day
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  with an undertaking that a reorganisation policy should be pursued. That was carried out under Government supervision.
  Therefore, steel has never really been a monopoly in the normal sense of the term. Its prices before the war were approved by the Import Duties Advisory Committee before they became operative. During the war, and still, prices have been under statutory control by the Ministry of Supply. Prices have always been fixed, and certainly they are fixed now, in accordance with a uniform costing system that has been greatly perfected. I would remind the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) that they are fixed in relation to the cost of efficient plants. Under this system there is, and always has been, competition between firms not only in the reduction of costs but in quality and service, and there always has been a constant striving amongst firms to improve their relative position in the industry.
  Therefore, there is no such thing as an ungoverned monopoly in this industry, apart altogether from the fact that the industry is generally under Government control. The most striking evidence of the success with which prices have been kept at a reasonable level is the fact that even before the war our prices in this country were fully competitive with the prices both on the Continent and in America, and at the present time they are well below, in almost every product, the prices of both the Continent and of America.
  Here again I do not follow the purpose of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in introducing the question of subsidies last night. Who can say that the cost which the State carries in respect of imported sieel—something like probably £10 a ton over the home price of steel in many cases—is a subsidy to the steel industry? It is a subsidy, and it is intended to be a subsidy, to the steel users. I am making the point because this subject has been discussed here during the last two days.
  It is perfectly true to say that the subsidy paid in respect of freights on imported ore and in respect of imported scrap is a subsidy to the steel industry, but the steel industry is willing, and always has been willing to incorporate those costs in its

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  own costs, not in the form of subsidy but in the form of part of the price. It would not mean more than probably about 5 per cent. on the present prices, which would keep them still generally under the level of European and American prices. Our pre-war discussions were always conducted with Government authority, and I should like to pay tribute to the co-operation we have had from the Steel Board in regard to these prices during the last two years. We probably have not got anything like we should have got, but that is another story. I have no reflection to cast upon the Steel Board.
  The third point of reflection on the industry is made on the ground that they entered pre-war into an international cartel and that they might, according to the Chancellor again some day wish to enter into an international cartel.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Cripps): What I said was that I did not accuse them.
  Sir A. Duncan: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman is giving us credit for it, I gladly accept that. There is nothing secret about this international agreement. It was made not only with the authority of the then Government, but really under auspices of the then Government. It was an agreement which controlled the imports of foreign steel into this country and, at the same time, assured this country of a fair share in the export market. There is less need for us to discuss that issue today because, in point of fact, there was nothing, either in principle or in substance in those pre-war times which was different from the discussions going on today in Paris, discussions which are a very necessary feature of future relations between Western European nations. Even if the pre-war Government are not particularly liked by the present administration, that is no reason for attacking the steel industry on this subject.
  I suggest that the House should not accept these points as constituting any ground at all, or even a pretext, for the Bill. Controversies of the past are really of very little moment at this present time. Parliament cannot fulfil its duty to the nation by pre-occupying itself with contentious discussions as to what happened 20 years ago. Proposals or policies submitted today, as the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council has
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  said several times, should stand or fall upon their own merits in the light of the conditions of today.
  The structure of the steel industry is the result of long experience and evolution, the integration of so many of our large firms through the processes of iron and steel making to the finished steel product; and from the finished steel product into so many branches of our engineering industry—constructional engineering, bridge building, tool-making and the like—that integration has been the result of progressive building up over a great many years of outlets for the steel plants. On the other hand, integration has sometimes come from the other direction, by enginering firms themselves entering into the production of specialised steel products so that they might control from the foundation the quality and particular sizes they needed for the final product they were making.
  The organisation of the industry recognises that its firms overlap into so many of these engineering activities and it provides machinery by which the main problems in the steel-making processes—not in constructional engineering, building or machine tool making, but in the main problems in steel-making processes—can be looked at and settled cooperatively for large and small firms alike. What are these problems? In the main they are problems of raw material supplies, of labour and equipment, of scientific research—something like £2 million is spent annually on scientific research in this industry—problems of reconstruction and development, problems of balancing capacity to an expanding demand and to the changing pattern of demand.
  I know of nothing in these arrangements that deserves censure or affords either the exercise or even the possession of power. Even if it did, the fact is that the national effort has been greatly advantaged by this form of organisation. That was the reason why the pre-war Conservative Government insisted on the organisation. The Government have, so far as it is necessary or desirable, effective control in this way of policy in relation to the iron and steel industry.
  Sir S. Cripps Sir S. Cripps indicated dissent.
  Sir A. Duncan: I see the Chancellor of the Exchequer shakes his head, but

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  I assert, and I repeat, that it is true. We will see how it works. During the two years in which the Ministry of Supply has exercised control of this industry through the Steel Board there has not been a single complaint either against the co-operation the industry has given or against the willingness of the industry to measure up to the full requirements of public interest. The Steel Board was set up to review and produce programmes of development needed for the organisation of the steel industry. How can the Minister of Supply say that the Steel Board system did not enable the Government to exercise a positive influence? What could be more positive than an obligation or a duty to produce programmes of expansion? None have been produced. The conclusion I draw—and it is a reasonable one—is that none were needed except those already submitted by the industry.
  But the Minister makes a quite new kind of complaint about non-co-operation. He said on Monday last:
  "Only recently, as the House is aware, the employers' representatives on the Iron and Steel Board, together with some other members, refused my invitation to continue their work because of their objection to Government policy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 57.]
  That is a strange statement. I ask the House to note two points. Who were those other members whom the wicked steel makers so influenced? One is the chairman, an independent and most able administrator; another is a consumers' representative, a distinguished shipbuilder; and the third is an ex-civil servant of the highest rank. My second point is that the Minister of Supply says they decided not to accept an invitation for a further term of office because of their objection to Government policy. But his own official announcement some time ago said this about it:
  "The Minister of Supply invited them to serve a further year but with the exception of the trade union members they have told him that in the changed conditions likely in their view to arise from the Government's proposals…they are not willing to continue on the Board."
  That is no expression of view at all as to public policy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] With great respect I leave this matter entirely to the view of the House. I see the Lord President shaking his head about it. These two statements are totally
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  different in essence. Without expressing any opinion at all as to the propriety or impropriety of policy, people can say, "No, it is so changing the conditions in which I am working that I cannot go on working in them." That is quite different from expressing a view on the policy. I will leave the House to make up its own mind about it.
  There are no pressing difficulties known to this industry or raised by the Government which justify the adoption of a completely new organisation without regard to its possible damage. If there were any need to discuss further development of public policy, there exists all the machinery with which to do it. The industry is thoroughly organised to discuss and implement public policy.
  The fact really is that the Bill is not a fulfilment either of the Government's Motion of 1946 or of "Let Us Face the Future." There are two important respects in which it differs from the Government Motion. It breaks completely with any pretence of effecting efficient organisation of the iron and steel industry. It throws the existing organisation into chaos and it proposes that the Government should themselves step down from the position of impartial overseer into competition with a variety of firms both inside and outside iron and steel. Secondly, it does not propose to take into public ownership appropriate sections of the iron and steel industry. It proposes to take into public ownership a number of selected firms, a hundred or more, engaged in certain sections of the iron and steel industry, but engaged also on all kinds of industrial enterprises, such as making printing machines, locomotives, floating docks, barges, bridge building and great public structures such as the new House of Commons. All that would come under the Board by the proposals of the Government.
  These industrial activities would involve the Government in contracts in every part of the world and also in ownership of subsidiary companies in all our Dominions, in the Argentine, on the Continent, in Belgium, France, Spain and a number of other countries. Not a word was said to us by the Minister of Supply of what was to happen to these foreign subsidiaries. Under these proposals it is also true to say that the State will secure a foothold in 101 other industries and

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  will own firms whose interest in iron and steel is a very small portion of their activities. Certainly a great number of them have far more men employed outside the scheduled industries than inside them. As many as 80 per cent. to 90 per cent. of the employees of some firms are engaged outside the scheduled industries.
  The Government may claim, but I would not concede it, that because of "Let Us Face the Future" they have a mandate to nationalise steel, but where is the mandate to embark on the nationalisation of the construction of floating docks, barges, bridges and buildings? If these proposals go through, the Government would own the largest bridge building unit in the country, and 30 per cent. of the constructional engineering plant of the country. Where is their mandate to enter into any or all of the industrial activities mentioned in the memoranda of association of any of these companies—an almost unlimited field?
  Public boards have already been set up by the Government in respect of nationalised services and in respect of the more difficult but limited industry of coal. No one can say that we have yet reached in coal an organisation equipped for its purposes. It may not be reasonable—personally I think it is not reasonable—to expect a satisfactory coal organisation without trial and error over a period of years. But can it be pretended that the Government have such experience from any of the existing boards to justify the belief that the proposed new corporation can successfully manage the vast complex of industrial activities now to be mopped up?
  Here we are dealing with vital home and export industrial activity of tremendous variety, and we cannot afford to trifle with such grave and great issues as these. "But," the Government say, "we are not proposing to set up a bureaucracy similar to that we have set up in these other industries. We just do not like the shareholders, who are too numerous. But the directors and managers are all—until we have another look at them—men of vigour, imagination and enterprise. They will just continue in office." But will they continue in office? If they do, with all their training in taking risks and independent action and with all
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  their accustomed acceptance of responsibility, what is to become of the poor Corporation?
  The truth is that the final and overall responsibility is, and must in fact be, vested at the head, in the Corporation. Inevitably, instead of having 107 completely autonomous units each carrying their own responsibility, authority and risk taking, we shall have concentrated in the proposed Corporation at the top, all authority and risk taking. There will be much less control of this Corporation than there is of the iron and steel industry today. Directors and managers may still be called directors and managers, but they will and must in fact become executive officers. Their work is bound to change in character and shrink in significance. There will be an inevitable and rapid march towards bureaucracy, just as big a bureaucracy as if it had been intended that these firms should be taken over in the same way as those in the coal industry were taken over.
  The technique of running great State organisations is a subject to which the Government must apply more research and on which they must gain more experience even for the efficient conduct of the industries they own. There can be no justification for venturing with confidence into a great new range of complex and complicated industrial activity. If there are defects in this industry, either in the industry itself or in its organisation, by all means let them he ventilated and corrected. But, in face of the evidence of the successful functioning of the industry, there is nothing which possibly can justify the Government in embarking on this proposed great gamble where irreparable damage can so easily be done to the whole fabric of this great industry and the nation.
  Names of our steel makers are known throughout the world and they have attracted to this country a considerable share of the international business goodwill this country enjoys. No other industry possesses a better record of labour and industrial relationships, no other industry has a better record of rising output and increased productivity per person and no other has developed its organisation as this industry has done. Not only does its organisation ensure progressive development in the industry, but it affords

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  to the Government a machine which can co-operate with them to maintain as far as possible a high and stable measure of employment.
  The proposals in this Bill do not build upon those foundations; they destroy them. No attempt is being made to prove an industrial case. This industry is doing well, very well. There is an onus on the Government to show that under any change they can do better. They have not discharged this onus, they cannot discharge it. Therefore, the conclusion is really inescapable that great national interests are being threatened with sacrifice on the altar of such a political philosophy as was enunciated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night.
  4.17 p.m.
  Mr. Ronald Mackay: At the conclusion of the Debate last night, at the end of the very brilliant, remarkable and devastating speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I felt that there was nothing more to say and that the Debate today would be something in the nature of an anti-climax. After listening to the very excellent speech we have just heard from the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan), with his great knowledge of this industry and the fairness he has shown in the way he has dealt with the problem, I am fairly satisfied that there is no anti-climax and that we have listened last night and this afternoon to two of the most outstanding performances in the discussion of this great subject that we are likely to hear. I am sure my hon. Friends would not like this occasion to pass without paying tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has dealt with the subject this afternoon.
  The right hon. Gentleman, in opening his case, stated that only the future would tell whether the things which we are doing today would be a success. In view of the fact that the announcement of what we intended to do was made two years ago, and in view of the picture we have had and the evidence we have had about the state of the steel industry this afternoon, time would seem to be well on our side. If the right hon. Gentleman's argument is a correct one, that during the last two years we have seen such results attained in this industry, with
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  the knowledge that nationalisation was to come at some time, then it is fair to suppose that we have every right to expect that the successes which we have witnessed during the last two years will continue in the years when our promises have been carried into effect.
  The right hon. Gentleman dealt with four matters. The first was organisation; that the Government were not setting up any system of organisation which would be of any value to the industry as a whole. The second was a review of the interwar period in which he recounted the work of the steel industry, as he interpreted it, during that period. If I may say so in passing, if the right hon. Gentleman were to return to his former profession and I found myself in trouble, so persuasive do I find him on this part of his story that I should be glad to have him to act for me. The story which he told of the inter-war years has been told by others in a different way. I think it only right that the story, as it has been told in another way, should be put, and I propose to do it in a few moments.
  Thirdly, the right hon. Gentleman dealt with the integration of the industry. He outlined and enumerated the different matters which had to be dealt with if the industry was to be properly integrated. I want to deal with that subject also. Finally, he dealt with the breach of promise, if one might put it that way—the fact that in our "Let us Face the Future," we had undertaken to nationalise the industry, but that we were going much further. He outlined a number of points dealing with that aspect which are of considerable importance. I want to review this subject from the same points of view as those of the right hon. Gentleman. I wish to make it clear before I do so, if it is not clear already, that I do not suggest that in what I have to say I can contribute one small part of the knowledge, information or experience in this great subject of which the right hon. Gentleman has given us the benefit this afternoon.
  It is time that we faced this question of organisation, which has been thrown up at us so much in the course of the Debate. The right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), in opening the Debate for the Opposition, complained that he was worried because there is no plan of any kind to say how this industry is to

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  be run when it is taken over by this Bill. When I looked at the leader in the "Manchester Guardian" this morning, I saw that it covered exactly the same point of view, although not with the same emphasis as the right hon. Gentleman. It said:
  "The Government still has today to tell the Commons and the country the purpose of the Steel Bill.…They have found hardly a reason for supposing that any good will be done. Everyone knows that there is a purpose for which a Steel Bill is needed. The protection of a Tory Government's tariff and the growing size of steel plants have together enabled the private firms to avoid at least the sharpest compulsions to efficiency through competition. The Government has to put something in their place; the question is what sort of control on behalf of the community will best ensure that steel is made and sold as cheaply as possible. No one pretends that this problem of monopoly control has been solved yet; we have only been trying for a few years. What the Government has failed to show is that the transfer of ownership will contribute anything at all to the solution."
  This passage puts the same point which the right hon. Gentleman put.
  I wish to ask the House to examine this problem. When one comes to look at it, I should not have thought that there could be a better framework or piece of machinery for the organisation of this industry than is provided by this Bill. We are trying to rationalise the industry, trying to bring the different parts of the organisation in the industry together. I have very little experience of steel, but I have spent about 20 years of my life as what the Americans would call a corporation lawyer in handling the reorganisation of business and the amalgamation of businesses.
  I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that from the point of view of the organisation of the industry as a whole, that to try to ensure that the shareholding of each company shall go into one holding company, if one likes to put it that way, is probably the most simple way of bringing about the proper rationalisation of this industry. That will then put the ultimate ownership in the hands of one authority. It will vest the ultimate control in the hands of one authority, and will mean that in the course of the reorganisation that is to take place we shall not be faced from time to time with continual conflict between the different companies, one against another.
  The impression has been given this afternoon and throughout the Debate
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  that because in private enterprise there are directors on the one hand and shareholders on the other, the shareholders exercise a real control over a company. Must we go on accepting this sort of nonsense? I have been a director of a very large public company in this country for 15 years. We always have to get two members of the staff to own shares so that we have a quorum at our annual general meeting. The many thousands of shareholders never bother to turn up.
  Mr. Eden: The hon. Gentleman's company does very well.
  Mr. Mackay: We do not do very well. We work very hard and we pay reasonable dividends.
  Mr. Eden: If the company does not pay a dividend it will come.
  Mr. Mackay: The right hon. Gentleman has just said that if we do not pay a dividend it will come. That is what has come to the steel industry. In the past it has come to the Government when it was in a mess. It does not want to come now when it is not in the same state. That is the position which we have to face today. I want to come back to the company aspect, because I cannot let hon. Members opposite get away with the sort of argument that in the capitalist world as we understand it, in the world of private enterprise, in the functioning of commercial enterprise today, even in new companies, there is any real proper control exercised by any body of shareholders over that number of companies which operate in the private sector and which are carrying on without loss.
  I want to ask a question. I find, from reading the "Financial Times" and by following the ordinary company advertisements, how rarely does a new director join a board directly from a shareholders' meeting. In the first place, he is generally co-opted to the board by his friends. I am not saying that in many cases he is not the right person to put on; I hope that when I was put on I was the right person—I certainly joined the board in that way. He then goes up for re-election at the next annual meeting. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite who are saying today, "You are not putting up a scheme for the organisation of this great industry," and who are asking us to leave

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  the steel control in the hands of shareholders who are controlling it, really suggest for a moment that the shareholders are exercising any control over the steel industry, except those particular shareholders who happen to work in Steel House. They are doing so, and it is probably right and proper that they should do. But I think it is time we cut out nonsense like this and realised that in that section of private enterprise there is quite a lot to be done, and that in an industry such as this, where there is no control over the industry as a whole by the people who own it, there is something to be said for a forced amalgamation. For that is what this proposal is, an amalgamation into a new corporation, which will enable the industry to carry out the necessary re-organisation.
  The right hon. Gentleman made a point of the fact that we were splitting the industry. Here I shall be very careful. I do not want to get on to technical grounds or, if I may put it in another way, to get into waters which are too deep for me to compete in swimming with the right hon. Gentleman. It is obvious that in the case of castings and things of that kind, only a small portion of the industry is being taken over; that is clear from the Schedule. But let us look at what is being taken over. In iron ore the companies taken over represent 97 per cent., of production, in pig iron 97 per cent., carbon steel ingots 99.6 per cent., alloy steel ingots 93.7 per cent., re-rolling 93 per cent., sheet metal 94 per cent., plate 97 per cent., and tinplate 88 per cent. That is almost the whole of that major part which is the basis and the foundation of the steel industry as a whole.
  If we say, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that one or two sections illustrate that and say, "You are splitting the industry for this reason," I suggest that is not an argument at all. But when it is said, "You are taking over subsidiaries"—such as the example of Vickers who do their re-rolling in the parent company—"and you are beginning to split the industry," I say that there is a real problem of reorganisation in this industry to be tackled and we cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs. We cannot reorganise any industry or amalgamate sections of businesses without knowing
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  that 1 per cent. or 10 per cent. or 5 per cent. of the businesses taken over will be unsuitable for the purpose of the amalgamation and will go back to some other organisation.
  So I seriously suggest to the House that though the right hon. Gentleman made quite a substantial point with regard to splitting the industry—we had it in more melodramatic and picturesque language from the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) yesterday, when he was waving his arms to indicate the vertical and horizontal splitting of the industry—in a matter of this kind, as in politics, we have to be satisfied with the least bad of the second best. When we bring those companies together, we have to put up to a certain extent with a certain amount of sections of the industry, which obviously would have existing companies that are not being taken over.
  The problem of reorganisation does not rest only here, and the right hon. Gentleman might have carried this point further. It is, I think, substantially true that some sections of the industry are more efficient than others. It must be true that some businesses are more efficient than others. It must be the fact, because of the location of some plants as against others the costs of production vary and are higher in one case than they are in another. If the State or the Corporation is going to own the shares of the whole 107 companies and it decides it is necessary to close down five, seven or ten of them, or individual sections of them, that is reorganisation and it can be done by the Corporation without infringing any right at all in doing so. In other words, the field is open for people with knowledge of the industry to come in and carry out the reorganisation of those industries that is necessary. Moreover only in this way can the necessary reorganisation be carried out.
  I find it difficult to read this Bill and the speeches made in this House and not to realise that everywhere, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman, there is a general acknowledgement that something must be done to reorganise the steel industry. Even our Liberal friends, who are asking for an inquiry, say that something must be done. The whole development indicates that it is

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  an industry in respect of which the State must take an interest. What are we doing to bring this about? We are creating by this Bill in this country a corporation to run the steel industry of the country, a corporation in which production plant and size will not be as great as the largest steel corporation in the United States and will only be as great as the second largest.
  The right hon. Gentleman has suggested that the talks going on in Paris about which he, in his capacity as benevolent director of Steel House, knows more than I do, deal with the whole problem of the steel industry of Western Europe. Surely, it would be much easier for the Steel Corporation as set up by this Bill, to deal with a similar nationalised industry on the Continent with the industry as a whole speaking in this way with complete authority, than if it was divided. The right hon. Gentleman dealt with the periods between the wars, and when he had dealt with them at great length he went on to say that, of course controversies of the past are of little moment in the present. I was reminded of an expression of the right hon. Member for Woodford—"Recriminations in the past are valuable guides to the future." I leave it to those two right hon. Gentlemen to fight that battle out for themselves.
  But I cannot pass this point without saying to the right hon. Gentleman that by the time he had arrived at that very philosophic attitude about controversies of the past he had enumerated all the controversies of the past to the advantage of himself and to the disadvantage of the Government. I should like to deal with this problem but I was so taken with the persuasiveness of the right hon. Gentleman that I am thinking that we should let these things be of the past, partly because they have been dealt with so much, partly because they could be dealt with again, if necessary, and, also, because I think it is more important to look at the present.
  I wish to call in aid at this moment the opinions not of myself or of people on this side of the House who might perhaps have a predilection to nationalise the steel industry, but of people who would not be expected to take that view. The United States State Department, in
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  a report published this year—the Department of State in Washington—says:
  "Although steel is one of the foundations of British economy the basic plants had for a number of years received inadequate maintenance and little modernisation,"—
  that could be during the war period—
  "At the end of the war the industry as a whole was inefficient by contemporary standards, although a small amount of new capacity was highly efficient."
  If the industry is as healthy as the right hon. Gentleman said, why have a steel plan for development at all? And why are its recommendations so drastic?
  The fundamental thing to bear in mind before coming to other questions surely is the amount of plant that has to be re-equipped, 40 per cent. in one case, 30 per cent. in another case, 34 per cent. in another case, 30 per cent. in another. There the steel industry is saying, "We must completely re-equip between 30 and 40 per cent. of the different sections of our productive capacity." Surely that is sufficient evidence to bring home to us that this industry admits the need for reorganisation, for that is exactly what it proposes should be done under the plan and what we propose to do?
  Sir Arthur Salter: Would the hon. Gentleman deliberately say that the limiting factor to the expansion of the steel industry in the near future will be finance rather than men and materials?
  Mr. Mackay: The question has been put to me whether the limiting factor to the expansion of the steel industry will be finance rather than men and materials. My answer is that I do not think that men and materials will be a limiting factor. I do think that finance may be a limiting factor unless the industry is taken over. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. Members opposite sneer, and they are entitled to do so if they think that that is a method of argument. But the sooner they realise that these are problems which have to be discussed in a body of this kind, and we are going to discuss them, the better it will be for everybody on both sides.
  I think it is fair to say that the original plan was for £168 million stepping up to £200 million. That was in 1945. I suggest that it is common sense to say that the present expenditure of £50 million is going to cost about £20 million

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  or £25 million more. The work that is to be done will cost at least £300 million, the £200 million figure will go up by anything from 40 to 50 per cent. We shall get into big figures. It is only fair to say that the hon. Member for Central Southwark (Mr. Jenkins) in an excellent speech on Monday made an exceedingly good point when he pointed out that the only substantial steel application after the war to the City for money was a failure. It was by the Welsh Steel Company, where £50 million was wanted, of which £15 million was to be subscribed on a mortgage debenture ½ per cent. above the then rate, a mortgage debenture which was in front of a security for £35 million from the Finance Corporation, which was virtually a Government concern—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—in the nature of a Government concern, or at any rate associated with the Government; put it that way. £35 million was put up by the banks and £15 million by public issue. Twenty-seven per cent. only of the public issue was subscribed and 73 per cent. was not and the Tory Press described it as the biggest flop in the post-war period. The answer to that is that at the same time and in the same period there were other quotations which were not flops at all.
  Mr. Erroll: Surely, that was because the Government had poisoned the market by its nationalisation policy?
  Mr. Mackay: The hon. Gentleman ought to realise that when you give people poison they die. The market is still alive. The Chancellor of the Exchequer dealt with this subject last night in such a way that we need not raise it again. He said that with every dose of poison put into the market up went the steel prices. With every announcement we had that steel was to be nationalised, steel shares rose and rose. So it is not really very sensible to try to argue at this stage that the market reacted in that sort of way.
  I return to the point put to me by the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter). The amount of money necessary to be spent on the steel industry in the next few years is going to he so great—partly because of higher costs and partly because of the additional
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  development work necessary to be done—that there is a real risk that we cannot find the finance in private channels. That is a very good reason why the industry should be taken over in this form so that the Government can make certain that the whole of the finance necessary for development is available.
  I come back to the present. As such a great point was made of the way in which between the wars we suffered, let us look at this expression of opinion which comes not from a British but from an American newspaper, not from a Labour but from a Liberal newspaper—one which is probably the second leading Liberal newspaper in the United States. This appeared in a leading article only a few days ago It says:
  "Private enterprise has failed to do its job.…"
  [HON. MEMBERS: "What is the name of the paper?"] The St. Louis "Post-Despatch." Obviously it is not the leading Liberal paper in America, but it is a very good paper as everyone here who knows it will agree. It said:
  "Private enterprise has failed to do its job. It is forcing Socialism's hands. Its case for being allowed to remain in control is weak. Though it has been getting top production considering its present plant, that plant is lopsided and obsolescent, and its inefficiencies are protected by monopoly. The industry has got itself into such a mess that nothing short of Government is big enough to get it out again.
  No one, including the industry itself, disputes that it is in a bad way. The only dispute concerns what is to be done about it, and even there private enterprise does not maintain that it can do the needful. It maintains only that it will see that Socialist Government in a hotter place than an open hearth furnace before it will let the Government do the needful. This is a poor position for private enterprise to manoeuvre itself into. It is all the worse because the industry did it by voluntarily throwing away two of the greatest policies of free private enterprise—competition and initiative.
  What has the industry left to say of persuasiveness, as opposed to mere defiance? What effective answer can it give to the Labour Party's pamphlet which declares the only choice remaining is between private monopoly and Government monopoly? How can it deny Labour's contention that steel is so essential to so much of a modern industrial State that control of it 'carries with it control of the economy,' a power which belongs to the people?"
  I pass to the third point referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, and that is integration. He described the sort of

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  things that ought to happen to the industry—the development of raw materials, the improvement of labour and equipment, scientific research, reconstruction and development, balanced capacity, changing the pattern of demand and generally following through the whole development programme to see that it is properly carried out. What is the agenda for the Corporation which the Minister is setting up? These are exactly the things which will be the duty of that Corporation. This point must be honestly faced. Hon. Members throughout this Debate have been saying that the Government have given no indication of what the Corporation is to do. I will quote what the Minister said on Monday. I will quote the last paragraph and then come back to an earlier part. He said:
  "Its major task, however—and this will be a continuing one—will be to review the development plans and to devise schemes of rationalisation to improve the efficiency of the industry as a whole."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 74.]
  What objection can there be to creating a corporation which, by the securities it will own, will have complete power to see that the development programme is properly carried out? When we think of the finance given to this industry, the tariffs and the conditions of the tariffs between the wars, and the reorganisation which did not result between the wars, we take the view that the Government will be completely playing with the electors and be guilty of the grossest negligence if they do not take some action to see that the development schemes are being properly carried out. The Minister also said:
  "The following matters will plainly be on its agenda. The establishment of relations with the companies it owns and in particular ensuring that these companies will have ample freedom of initiative and competition with which to carry on their activities."
  That is one of the things necessary so that the 107 companies with enormous resources which they will be controlling shall be able to work together. That means that they will be doing a large part of the work of the Iron and Steel Federation. This work will be done in this way in the future by a public corporation and not by a private trade association. The Minister continued:
  "…setting up the appropriate co-ordinating machinery with the various producers still in private ownership; working out with my
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  Department the most effective organisation of consumers' committees."
  That is a thing we have never had in the past. It is another protection for the 80 per cent. of private industry, or whatever section it is, that is still in private ownership. Then the Minister said:
  "..reviewing price policy; examining what steps should be taken to establish better training schemes and to develop research; deciding what other common services it can render to the industry, including possible purchasing and selling arrangements and no doubt some of the services now rendered directly or indirectly by the staff of the Iron and Steel Federation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948: Vol. 458, c. 73.]
  The suggestions which the Minister made with regard to the way in which the Corporation will function are exactly those which the right hon. Gentleman asked should be the main things which the industry required to have attended to. The right hon. Gentleman dealt with the question of what we had said in "Let us Face the Future," that we were going to nationalise steel, and said that we were going much further than that. From time to time we have had suggestions that we wanted to take over the whole industry but that we were doing it in this way and keeping the names of existing companies because we wanted to hide the fact that they would be operating under State ownership. It is completely silly to say that. In many ways it is obviously good business to keep the old well known names. In the "Manchester Evening News" of 16th October I happened to see a paragraph which had the headline:
  "Lewis's take over wholesale grocers."
  The paragraph read:
  "Sixty years after it was formed, one of Manchester's biggest wholesale grocery firms, William Hodkinson and Sons, Ltd., has been acquired by Lewis's. The firm will retain its name. Its Board of Directors will include Lord Woolton and three other Lewis's executives."
  We come then to the point which the right hon. Gentleman was making about there being no pretence that we were going to improve the organisation of the industry. I point out to him that we are, in a sense, substituting for the Iron and Steel Federation a board which has statutory authority and much fuller powers. The Conservative Opposition have shown time and time again—and it is in the latest bulletin of the Iron and

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  Steel Federation itself—that there must be some kind of control in this industry. The argument is whether we want the control to go on as at present in the hands of the people who own the industry and are responsible really to no one, or whether we want it to be in the hands of people who are appointed by and responsible to the State. The Government today are in an impartial position in so far as they are a price fixer. I see very little difference in the position which will result in this respect. Obviously the board will fix prices much as the Minister does today, but instead of it being done in the way in which it is done at present it will be done by a hoard which has the backing of the Minister.
  If one reads that interesting document, the Industrial Charter, one will see that the great problem referred to is how to reconcile control of industry at the centre with independence. Those are not the exact words though I believe I have the first part of it right. The way to exercise control of the centre is by the creation of a public authority of this kind free from the Ministry altogether and because of the power which it is absolutely essential to have because of its ownership of these 170 companies, it will be able to carry out the necessary changes and reorganisation giving effect to the different improvement schemes.
  There were other things I wanted to say but other hon. Members want to speak as well. I want to take up a point that was made yesterday when it was said we have got to make a case for the nationalisation of steel. I say that the case has been made itself. The Iron and Steel Federation made out a case because no one denies the need for the re-organisation of the industry, and if it is left under separate control we shall never get the proper co-ordination. A forced amalgamation of this kind is the only way to bring it about. The case for a monopoly is there to a certain extent, and hon. Members can argue about the details if they want to. The case for finance is there too, and there is the capacity of the Corporation which we need when things are going well. But other steps are necessary so that when a period comes when the demand is not so great the sort of thing will not arise as arose during the years before the war.
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  I am worried when I read in the Tory papers about their restrictionist ideas. The "Observer" last Sunday asked what would happen in five years' time when a capacity of 18 million tons of steel was too great? But what about the four million homes in Europe which have to be rebuilt and what about the construction work to be done in Africa and India and China? The whole problem of steel production and steel consumption has yet to be thought out in entirely new and much larger terms. They are the reasons which obviously make it necessary for this industry to be taken over. There is one more point I should like to make.
  I should have liked to deal with the question of monopoly in greater detail but I wish to say something about the speech made yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). Through his speech ran the theme that this was a petty party thing we were trying to do. Among other things he said:
  "This Bill is another instance of the same behaviour on a far larger scale. The Socialist Ministers must have something new to feed the flame of Party strife and to prove that they still hate and are trying to maul the other half of their fellow countrymen.
  It is a feature in party politics intended to keep the Socialist Left Wing as far as possible in order.
  This is not a Bill it is a plot; not a plan to Increase production.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 228, 232, 233.]
  His whole speech is full of gibes of that kind, but I want to say quite frankly to someone for whom I have the greatest respect—and like every Member I recognise the amazing piece of work that the right hon. Gentleman did during the war years—that those of us who admired him in the past do not like the pettiness with which he carries on party warfare today. Those of us on this side of the House who came here on a Socialist programme did so because we are Socialists and this cannot be called a manoeuvre in party politics in any sense whatever. I myself have advocated the nationalisation of steel since 1931, and the Labour Party since 1942. For the right hon. Gentleman to say that this is a bit of party politics is so much utter nonsense. The longer the right hon. Gentleman goes on in that way the better it is for the Labour Party in this country. The people generally take little notice of what he is saying in this

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  connection and that is a great pity in view of his record.
  I want hon. Gentlemen, particularly those on the other side, to realise that the party on this side of the House has come into office because it believes in Socialism—because it believes that the logical consequence of political democracy is economic democracy. Surely the lessons of the war have taught us that. The collapse of France was as much an economic and social collapse as a military collapse. Our task here and in Europe is to created a society in which we can develop the democratic idea in the fullest way as the basis of our society. That is' not possible where power—any power economic or otherwise—is in the hands of a small section of the people. Democracy is not some sort of possession which we are now enjoying. It is a kingdom we have yet to win in this country, and the only way of converting our country into a democracy, is along the lines of the programme that this party is putting through at the present time.
  When I listen to some hon. Members opposite talking about the conflicts of today, I believe they do not realise what is going on in Europe. The conflict in Europe is not between capitalism and anything else because capitalism is dead and finished. That is an 18th century conception. The conflict is between social democracy and Communism. Social democracy must demonstrate that it is able to govern, and to govern it must take over some of the resources of the country. This means the public ownership of the major industries of which iron and steel is one. So I ask the House to give a strong, good Second Reading to this Bill. It is one of the most important Measures ever to come before us. It demonstrates to the working people of this country that this Government are determined to carry out their pledges and are not going to allow the existence of any small section of the community to control basic and fundamental industries and have authority against the State as a whole. It demonstrates, too, that we Socialists have a Socialist faith and are determined to see that faith translated into action.
  4.57 p.m.
  Sir John Barlow: I listened with very great interest to the speech
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  of the hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. McKay) and I did not find his arguments at all convincing. He referred to a number of different things and suggested that the bringing together of all the steel shareholdings in this country would enable the Government to rationalise the steel industry. I see very little force in that argument. The mere fact of bringing the shareholdings together does not give the Government the authority, nor necessarily the ability, to rationalise the whole industry.
  The hon. Member likewise suggested that one of the great shortcomings of the present scheme was the probable limitation on finance which would appear in the near future. He showed that in the past there had been some £50 million raised for re-equipping and modernising the industry, but he did not show that there had been any failure in any way to raise the money. He mentioned the fact that in one case some of the capital offered was not taken up by the public, but the fact remains that all the money required by the industry has been forthcoming in one way or another under present existing methods of finance.
  There was one other thing that he mentioned to which I should like to refer, namely, the taking over of a grocery business in Manchester by a much larger firm with a certain well-known individual joining the board of the acquired company. He suggested that that was very similar to what the Government propose to do at the present time with iron and steel. I would point out that there is very little in common. It is entirely different. That business was purchased by one private enterprise body from another, and an amalgamation took place enabling them to work together. It is an entirely different proposition when the Government take over the whole shareholding of the steel industry and dominates it completely by the Corporation and the Minister.
  In opening my remarks I must say that I have a small interest in iron and steel in this country. It is not in any way a manufacturing interest, but I have been interested for a number of years in the export of iron and steel in quite a modest way. I should like for a few minutes to deal with some of the wider aspects of how this Measure will affect overseas trade. We see from the Bill that the

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  Government propose to take over some 107 existing companies. Many of those companies have subsidiaries, and the Government will acquire, in various ways, an enormous export interest. By "export interest", I mean the exporting of iron and steel, and also the local interest of foreign subsidiary companies. There are many iron and steel manufacturing businesses all over the world which, at the present time, are owned by companies which will very largely be purchased by the Government. I need not emphasise the great contribution made by the iron and steel industry in obtaining the all-important dollars required in this country at the present time. It is of the utmost importance that the export of iron and steel, and of all the materials made of iron and steel, should continue and increase as far as possible. I believe that we all have that great objective in mind.
  We shall soon have Government-owned companies dealing with private companies abroad. That is business between un-equals. It is always found to be best to deal with private companies here and private companies abroad, or with Governments here and Governments abroad. If the Government here deal with private firms abroad, trouble may very easily arise. It is quite possible that goods may not be up to standard or that there may be other difficulties such as do arise in business. When they appear between two individual private firms, it it usually comparatively easy for those firms to come to terms of settlement; but when the Government are at the back of a British firm which, perhaps supplies the wrong material, or supplies it too late, that puts the disagreement on a very different basis. We can easily visualise the foreign individual firm appealing to its Government to approach the British Government. That would transfer the business entirely from the private commercial atmosphere to the much more important political atmosphere. It is very likely that trouble will arise in that way.
  We are told that when the Government take over all these firms, they are going to retain the existing boards for the time being. They lay great stress on maintaining the goodwill and traditions of the companies. I would like to say a word about the importance of goodwill and
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  traditions in the export trade. To a very large extent, before modern transport made travel so easy, the export trade of this country in textiles, iron and steel, and many other things, was built up by goodwill, tradition and trade marks which became very valuable. But goodwill is a very intangible thing. One cannot transfer it as one can a sack of potatoes. It can be in existence one day, and, owing to something going wrong, it can be entirely destroyed the next. For that reason, I think that when the Government take over these businesses, there will, inevitably and immediately, be a severe blow dealt to existing goodwill.
  One already hears that in overseas countries they are very critical of this proposed Bill, and, in many cases, foreign firms are already considering placing orders for machine tools and other steel products in America rather than in this country. They feel that if the personal contact, as they have known it in the past, between themselves and the individual firms in this country once ceases to exist, they will be dealing with an entirely different entity, and one which they do not know. It is largely because they do not know it that they do not trust it.
  I mentioned at the beginning of my speech the' difficulty of some of the British owned subsidiary companies abroad. I should like to mention one instance as an illustration, and it is probably typical of many others. We all know the well-known firm of Dorman Long and Company, Limited. They have, I believe, a wholly-owned subsidiary called Dorman Long (South Africa). That South African subsidiary has been built up over a considerable period of time. It has done what the South Africans wish; it has developed in their way, and it has been a good example of private enterprise providing for the requirements of that particular country. If, when the Government take over that subsidiary, exactly the same service is not provided as has been provided in the past, South Africans and the South African Government may become critical of the British Government. It is so easy to transfer these matters from the Board of Trade to the Foreign Office, which is an entirely different thing, and very bad for trade.
  If prices diminished, it is probable that the local competitors in South Africa

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  would suggest that the British Government were subsidising the exports to South Africa, and that this was unfair competition to their industry. It is most difficult to refute the idea of subsidies. Of course, if prices rose, as many people expect they will, everyone would say that the Government and the Government-operated firms were not so efficient as private enterprise. Therefore, whatever happens, the Government stand to be shot at. I ask the Government spokesmen to consider very carefully this question of goodwill which it is proposed to transfer. I submit that it is impossible to transfer goodwill in the way the Government hope to do. Enterprise, genius for developing business, and goodwill do not flourish under the shadow of Whitehall.
  5.9 p.m.
  Mr. Octavius Willey: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Sir J. Barlow) very far in the argument he has been putting before the House, but coming as I do from a constituency which has a very large area of iron and steel plants, which are at the moment in a state of comparatively high activity, I would like to say a word or two about why I feel that this Bill is of major importance. It is not only a Bill of major importance, but, as was said by my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay)—to whose speech I think we all listened with very great attention—it expresses something which to some of us at least is not a new idea.
  For many years past I have travelled this country, and have made more speeches than I care to remember. Sometimes when I reflect about some of them I wonder why I ever made them. I am frank about that. But about many of those speeches I have no regrets, and as I have thought about this Debate and listened to its course, I have remembered speeches which I made in Jarrow.
  As I said in the early days of this Parliament, the thing which is nearest to my heart is the well-being of the people of this country, and until I die I shall never forget the lacklustre eyes of the people of that unfortunate town. Something might have been done for the steel industry in general, and a new hope might have come to the hearts of many of those people much earlier than it did. But it
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  just did not happen. As Jarrow was, so many other places in this country were. It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen opposite to talk in a semi-academic way about the problem of industry, and of how industry should do this and that, thinking always in terms of what they call the prosperity of the industry. To me there is a prosperity which is far more fundamental than anything that is measured in terms of shareholders' returns, and that is the life of the people engaged in the industry.
  I come from the constituency of Cleveland, and I realise that it is an honour to represent such a constituency. There is more than iron and steel there. There are ironstone mines, and it is known to some hon. Members, but perhaps not to all, that one of the highest percentages of unemployment in this country during the distressing years between the wars was in the constituency of Cleveland. The people of Cleveland love the place, and they are always wondering what is to be their future. I should be failing in my duty to those people if I did not say plainly that they expect me, every time and all the time, to support this Government in any Measure which is going to make for a deeper security for the people in this country.
  It is the problem of manpower that matters. Hon. Members opposite who have talked about the industry from a deep understanding know quite well that manpower is going to be vital. Curiously enough, as I was thinking about this, my mind went back to a conversation between a gentleman named Creevey and the Duke of Wellington in Brussels just before the Battle of Waterloo. I thought it would be rather interesting to point out what the great Duke had to say.
  Sir William Darling: He was a Tory; be careful.
  Mr. Willey: Certainly, but I want hon. Members to observe what he said. Creevey said to the Duke, "Will you let me ask you, Duke, what you think you will make of it?" The Duke began to talk about his association with Blücher and then, noticing a private soldier of one of the infantry regiments in the park, gaping about at the statues and images there, he said, pointing to the soldier, "It all depends on that article whether we do the business or not." That "article" was a common soldier. The Duke said "That is the man."
  Sir W. Darling: A volunteer.
  Mr. Willey: Fancy an hon. Member opposite talking about a volunteer. Has he never heard of the press gang? Has he never heard of how the people of this country were treated when troops and sailors were urgently needed? Come, that will not do. It betrays woeful ignorance. When I listened to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary yesterday I heard the authentic voice of the man employed in the steel industry. I went to my constituency and I took what steps I could to ascertain what the ordinary chap working in the steel industry expected. I found that they did not exactly agree with the view that had been arrived at by the noble Lord the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) when he said that he could not find anybody who was in favour of nationalisation, or words to that effect. It all depends where we look.
  But there is another matter to which the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) referred yesterday. I was extremely interested in what he said. I agree almost entirely with the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull who, unfortunately, has had to leave the Chamber. His was a most brilliant effort in dealing with a great problem such as this. He referred to aspects of the speech of the right hon. Member for Woodford with which I do not propose to deal although, as John Bright used to say occasionally when entering this House, "I think I will go in and do a little prize fighting." I think I should have enjoyed a little prize fighting, but my time is limited. However, I would like to draw attention to the following remarks of the right hon. Gentleman:
  "The Conservative Party in no way abandons the necessary control of the steel industry which has been so long in operation. We certainly consider that the price controls which we ourselves introduced and endorsed, must be taken as an essential and permanent feature of our policy."
  My hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull referred to the dissatisfaction which existed in this industry. It was certainly interesting that the right hon. Member for Woodford yesterday said precisely what we have been told from this side of the House this afternoon. He said:
  "Neither do we regard the steel industry in its present state as incapable of further
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  reform."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 220.]
  The case for reform has been made. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary made it yesterday. I, personally, believe that the way to reform the industry is to take the steps which this Bill proposes. We believe that the life of the people of this country is vitally important, and that applies to everybody engaged in the steel industry. If manpower is important it is vital that these men should believe in the job which they are doing. They are doing a marvellous job.
  There is one thing which I regret I did not hear. I expected to hear it this afternoon. That is the fact that the workers in the industry, freely and of their own volition, altered their whole method of working so that they might co-operate and help to build this industry. Without them the industry is finished. The great Duke was right. It all depends on "that article." Without the people of this country, we shall not get round the corner. It is the ordinary folk who will do the job who matter. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may sit and swing their financial influence, but they will not save Great Britain. It is the people who sent us here who will do that, the ordinary men in the shop. It is the man in the steel industry who will save the steel industry. He is the man who will ultimately give us what we hope to see.
  I listened yesterday afternoon to the speech of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply. He is respected throughout the steel industry. He is a first-class steel worker and he knows what he is talking about. He knows what his men feel. The men as a whole are behind him and behind the present Government in the step which is being taken. It is very interesting to note that "setting the people free" does not mean, so far as the steel industry is concerned, free and unfettered competition in the future. Our attitude of mind about this problem is right. It is good also that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman was so clear. There was no dubiety about it, and it means that the Government need have no hesitation realising that they are not fettering people but actually freeing people. By maintaining price controls they are taking the right step to give a larger measure of freedom.
  I think that the right hon. Member for Woodford sometimes forgets that he used

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  some of those expressions, when he tries to gibe at this side of the House. As he rightly said yesterday: "I cannot go over everything I have said for 50 years." It is a very good way out. I expect that he, like my humble self, sometimes says things and then wishes that he had not said them.
  Before I sit down I would like to recall that on 5th December, 1945, a voice, alas, now silent for ever! was heard in this House. I remember it well. The hon. Gentleman who spoke was sitting on the Front Bench below the gangway. Slowly and deliberately he began to address a crowded House. We all know what we felt about him as an individual. He began to talk about the duties that were incumbent upon the Government that had been sent by the people of this country to carry out and perform their tasks. Can we not see the finger of Mr. James Maxton pointed at the Prime Minister? At the conclusion of his speech he said: "I want the Labour Government to succeed and I want them to do things for the people of this country that have never been done before, because it is essential." And then he said—and I say this now in this House because I believe it—"Should the Government fail in this great task the power will be shifted from them to a more fundamental party." Hon. Gentlemen sitting opposite will remember how he checked the Leader of the Opposition by saying that he was not referring to the right hon. Gentleman's party.
  We know what was in the mind of our old friend, Maxton—because he was a friend. He was seeing clearly what my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull has told this House this afternoon, that the fight now is not for the simple preservation of Capitalism but a fight that some of us have seen coming for 40 years. It is the fight for the people. The masses are on the move. The masses are now determining that control and power must be vested in the community and not in groups or sections. I believe that. [Laughter.] Hon. Members have laughed before in this House, but as Maxton told us, the day will come when we shall see a different set-up in this House. I believe that now from the bottom of my heart, and I welcome the Bill and hope that it will be carried by a magnificent majority.
  5.26 p.m.
  Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: I should, according to custom, commence by declaring that I have an interest in the iron and steel industry inasmuch as, like thousands of other shareholders, I own some shares in Stewart and Lloyd's. We have just listened to the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. O. Willey) who spoke no doubt with great sincerity, and who brought to our notice the part that has been played by the workers in the steel industry.
  If there is any common ground in the House it is in the tributes that have been paid by almost every hon. Member to the team work which the iron and steel workers have exhibited during the last few years. But I would like to point out that it was team work. The hon. Member used the analogy of the Iron Duke's tributes to the common soldier. I would like to point out that afterwards the Iron Duke said to a friend: "That was a devilish fine-run thing. If I had not been there, I do not think we should have won." That is team work, exactly the same team spirit which the iron and steel industry have shown over the last few years. But it has been rather exceptional in this way.
  If the Bill is a triumph for the Minister of Health it may well turn out to be a disaster for the nation, and particularly for my country which is so dependent upon iron and steel at a reasonable price. The Bill is a monument to the ascendancy of a minority within the Government, a minority propelled by an iron determination to bring nationalisation about and a steely obstinacy not to try to prove that it is going to bring about all that they have claimed. The internal struggle which has gone on within the Government during the last two or three years is underlined by the two voices with which Ministers have spoken about this Measure. As on the question of military service the Government have changed their views.
  Let us recall what was said back in 1946 in connection with the proposals at that time to introduce an Iron and Steel Measure. We have heard something about the present Bill being a hybrid Bill but if one thing is clear, it is that the Bill is a product of hybrid thought. In May, 1946, the then Minister of Supply used these words:

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  "The decision has been come to after very close and earnest study."—[OFFICIAL REPORT 27th May, 1946; Vol. 423, c. 838.]
  The Minister went further and explained that the proposal was to take over the industry by including the primary or heavy rolling sections and that taking over the finishing processes was to be the exception and not the rule. Further earnest and close study has shown the first earnest and close study to be all wrong, because the finishing processes are now all to be taken over, for the simple reason that they happen to be tagged on to the production of 20,000 tons of iron or 20,000 tons of steel. As was shown in that most able speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan), which let a little bit of ordinary commercial limelight play through the fog of political prejudice, we are to find, for example, that 45 per cent. of the heavy forging production in this country, 94 per cent. of tyres, wheels and axles, and 60 per cent. of the steel wire is to be taken over under the new procedure. The old conception has gone. What was final in 1946 has turned out not to be final at all. The industry was to be nationalised on a functional basis; now it is on a financial basis. Then it was to be socialised processes; now it is to be socialised firms.
  As the Minister of Supply asked yesterday, what is the heart of this matter? Why is all this to be done? Because, he says, he needs more than negative powers. Is it realised that at the present time the Government have complete control over prices, have complete control over extensions and permits to modernise and to expand, have complete control over import duties? Can it be solemnly averred that with these strangleholds they cannot force the industry to do exactly what they want? With these powers and controls they could force the industry into bankruptcy, and to pretend that they needed to take this further step to transfer and control the capital in order to be able to get the industry to do what they want is the merest hypocrisy.
  In 1946 the Minister ended, in his peroration, with the words that the Government would take these steps because they
  "…believe sincerely that they will bring greater freedom, greater happiness and greater
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  prosperity to British men and women."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th May, 1946; Vol. 423. c. 854.]
  It is curious to hear the Government having some concern for the public interest and the ordinary consumer, for he is the man who, in all these nationalised processes, is being completely forgotten. In the struggle between the new vested interests which are being set up, the hierarchy of highly-paid management, the departmental thriving bureaucracy, the trade union interests and the workers who, soon to be disillusioned, fondly imagine that they are walking into a new earthly paradise, it is good to hear the ordinary consumer at least entering into the Government's calculations. But the ordinary consumer must smile a wry smile as he sits in his chair, looks at his fire and thinks of the history of coal in quantity, in quality and in price, and must say to himself, "What benefit has come to me from the nationalisation of electricity and of the railways? Am I likely, then, to get any cheaper steel—that steel which enters into so many products which themselves enter into my life?"
  That is the acid test of the justification of this Bill. Will steel be produced any better, which means, in the long run, any cheaper? What attempt has there peen to show that this will be so? None at all. As the "Economist" said in its recent article, the balance of evidence is that it will not. How does the Government hope to produce cheaper steel under this nationalisation scheme? Let us for a moment examine the possibilities which are open to it. Past prices were not high. My right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London showed today that we were, throughout, competitive. In 1937, for example, our prices for joists, plates and bars were dearer than those of Belgium, but cheaper than those of the United States and Germany. In 1939 our plates were cheapest and our joists were dearer than those of Belgium and France but cheaper than those of Germany and U.S.A. Today, throughout a large range of steel products we are the cheapest producers in the world, and that is still a fact even when we make allowances for the subsidy which the subsidy on freight and the subsidy on scrap represents. Throughout the whole range at the present time we are competitive. Is it

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  expected that we are going to show even cheaper prices under nationalisation?
  Where else can we look for more efficiency—under the Government's proposals—for cheaper prices? Is it to be in increased production? Much appears to be expected from that. In the inter-war period the demand never at any time reached the potential supply. From 1924 to 1934 the capacity of the industry was 12 million tons. Demand never approached that figure. The capacity rose in the period 1934 to 1938 to 14 million tons and demand succeeded in reaching, for one moment, 13 million tons. The 1945 plan—and may I point out that the original thoughts behind this plan were going on in 1944, and I myself saw a draft of the plan dated December, 1944, so that the allegation that this is a death bed repentance scarcely squares with the fact that there was a plan in, existence in December, 1944, six to eight months before there was a Socialist Government—the 1945 plan set forth, as is well known, a capacity of 15 million ingot tons, a capacity which has now been raised by consultation with the planning authorities and the industry to possibly 18 million tons. We hear, a clamour for even higher figures. We heard it from Mr. Cole, who advocated 26 million tons and quickly reduced it to 24 million tons, while others advocated 20 million tons.
  This constantly expanding capacity is just the sort of trap into which inexperienced dabblers in international trade are liable to fall, owing to a temporary and clamant demand.
  Mr. Mitchison: Would not the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us that this is exactly the trap into which the industry itself fell after the first world war?
  Colonel Hutchison: That ought not to encourage the hon. and learned Gentleman and the Government to follow the same precedent. This habit of using an insistent and clamant temporary demand to build the whole of the programme for the future, is the most dangerous gambler's habit. This has happened before, as the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) has said, and it is of the greatest importance to the country that it should not happen again. What is going to happen if the demand for our motor cars falls in foreign countries? What
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  is going to happen if the demand for shipbuilding falls? There is not a shipbuilder in the country who imagines that the present high and insistent demand will be a permanency.
  Have the Government calculated on the increased capacity of foreign countries? Is it realised that the Canadian output has already been trebled? Is it realised that the European countries, with the exception of Germany, are approaching their pre-war figure, that Luxembourg, Poland, South Africa and Sweden have passed it? Is it realised that the United States of America, with its enormous production figures, is in the course of doubling them? What is going to happen when all these come into operation and play on the international market? If we double the inter-war demand, as it was experienced, we find a total demand of 16 to 17 million tons, which will be taken care of by the existing plan. But is a permanent doubled demand likely? This is the most acute problem which faces every businessman when he is calculating what he is going to do in the future. But mark this: if the businessman miscalculates, it is he who makes a loss. But if the Government miscalculate it will do great damage to the whole of the public.
  There is another aspect to this. If this calculation goes wrong and the demand falls how are the Government to succeed in maintaining their production and fill their capacity? Surely, the only thing they can then do is to cut prices. What sort of international complications are to arise if the British Government, who own all the steel production here, start to compete in that way? How will it be received by the nationals of foreign countries who realise that they are in a cutting campaign against the British Government? What, for example, is the new and expanding industry in India and Australia to say then? If the Government cut prices they automatically tend to make losses; but they cannot make losses under the Bill; they are charged not to make losses. Therefore, what are they to do in order to keep up their production and their profits? The only one thing left to do is to increase prices to the home consumer. That is very likely to happen. It has happened on the Continent—home consumption subsidising exports time and time again. What happens

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  then to the aim outlined by the Minister in 1946, that the consumer would benefit out of all this?
  A word on taxation. What is to happen on the taxation side? In the coal industry very large annual sums in taxation were contributed to the Exchequer before nationalisation. Now they are all gone. In the steel industry at present, each company pays its own separate taxation. If it makes a profit it pays the appropriate tax. If one company makes a loss, that cannot be set off against the profits of another. Under this Bill that can be done, and so it is almost inevitable that the country will receive less in taxation from this industry. Who is the taxpayer but the consumer? So here is the consumer, who is supposed to benefit by this Measure, who is likely instead to find steel dearer, and who, it is quite certain, will have to pay more in taxation because of this Bill.
  Let us examine for a moment the third of the trilogy of noble objectives which the Minister outlined in that peroration to his speech—freedom: the greater freedom the Bill is to bring to British men and women. I do not think it has been contended, and I do not believe anyone would seriously contend, that by buying from a Government corporation the ordinary consumer can have more freedom than if he were able to pick one of the ordinary competing companies at the present time which, admittedly, are linked together. I do not think anybody will claim the consumer is going to have more freedom under the new system. Therefore, the freedom policy must apply to the workers. How is the worker to stand? The Minister yesterday made a most interesting, a most illuminating, and, I think, most dangerous remark when he was talking about the necessity of having more control of a non-negative kind. He said, for instance, that he had not been able to prevent the Steel Board resigning. Consequently, by implication, he said that under the new dispensation people who are under contract—and whose contract was finishing anyhow—could be prevented from leaving Government employment. That seems to me to be a most dangerous theory.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Jack Jones): My right hon. Friend the Minister made
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  it very clear in his speech that members of the Steel Board were at perfect liberty to leave the Board, and so can members of any other board in like circumstances.
  Colonel Hutchison: Certainly he did. I quite agree. However, he went on to indicate that the possibility of their leaving in that way was a highly undesirable feature. That is a very curious theory, because it means that he wants to use this Bill in order to prevent people from being able to leave their employment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] Does that extend to the workers in the industry? Well, I think the Minister should have used different words, or should have made the words he used very much clearer.
  There is a profound evil inherent in nationalised industries, and that is that the worker has only a single employer, an employer who is distant, intangible and impersonal. If he quarrels with that single employer he is virtually a lost man. The facade of this Bill will not disguise from anybody the fact that at the pinnacle of the structure of the industry there is a single employer. No one will be deceived into thinking that the worker will be able to move from one employer to another more freely.
  The boards and corporations set up by the Government are in a dilemma in this matter. It is not their fault, but the fault of the system. What are they to do? If they do not dismiss those men who are, perhaps, not pulling their weight, who are undesirable influences in a concern, or who for other reasons ought to be got rid of, then they will either have to keep men on the payroll who ought not to be there, or, on the other hand, get rid of them and virtually condemn them to unemployment, because it is clear that a man dismissed from the Government's own industry cannot easily get employment in that industry again. Therefore, the worker will have to seek work elsewhere, in quite another trade, perhaps in a trade in which he is not skilled, and must, in consequence, accept rates of pay for unskilled people. What should he do? Should he try to be accepted in another industry at rates of pay for the unskilled worker? Or should he emigrate, perhaps? But that is a savage sentence. Is he not much more likely to come back, cap in hand,

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  to his former employers and ask for forgiveness? That is the way the State will create a race of sychophants, of men hanging on their immediate bosses smile. Shakespeare said:
  "Oh, how wretched is that poor man who hangs on princes' favours."
  Those are wise words. Yet under nationalisation we are to create a race of men who are to hang on princes' favours. These are not fanciful illustrations. We have the case of the eight Cresswell miners. I hold no brief for them. No doubt, they were very troublesome. But it was a savage sentence. Then there was the case in Scotland of Captain Fresson, one of the only three men who had flown civil aircraft for profit and who were taken on by B.E.A. When he saw foolish things being done, things that were uneconomic, he raised his voice in criticism. Officialdom abhors criticism, and so he was dismissed, with no possibility of ever again being employed in the only trade he knew.
  Mr. Mitchison: Has the hon. and gallant Member ever heard of a black list among shipbuilding employers on the Clyde?
  Colonel Hutchison: I dare say that there is an interchange of information. I do not admit it because I do not know. However, I cannot believe that that is nearly as complete as it is to be under one employer. That is 100 per cent. control. I wonder if the workers realise into what noose they are putting their unwitting heads. Perhaps they do. For in spite of all that has been said on the other side of the House, their support for this Measure is, to say the best for it, lukewarm. Their possibility of freely changing their employment is disappearing. The possibility of their obtaining increased freedom, which the Bill was supposed to provide, is being destroyed.
  Never were reasons for producing a Measure so clothed in hypocrisy. Never was the market of argument scraped so bare. Never were so many contradictory arguments brought forward to support a Measure. Never did hon. Members supporting a Bill contradict other hon. Members also supporting it so often and so forcibly. If the industry concentrates itself, it becomes a monopoly: if it does not it is backward and should be swept away. If the industry fixes its prices
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  to make a reasonable profit, it exploits the public; if it makes a loss, it is inefficient and ought not to be allowed to continue. If it plans, it becomes a cartel and menaces the State: if it fails to plan, it is decadent and unworthy to continue. A steel coin has been tossed into the air to the cry by the Government. "Heads I win, tails you lose."
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Alex. Anderson: I count myself fortunate in being called in this Debate, since this subject of steel is of vital interest to my constituency and to the West of Scotland. I am surprised that the hon. and gallant Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison) did not pay more attention to the problems of the industry in the area which he represents. I know that he had an opportunity of gaining an intimate knowledge of the working of the steel industry, because during the Recess he had a much publicised week in the steel works of Lanarkshire, but he has not conveyed to us the information which he got from the workmen in the industry about their attitude to this Bill. Possibly he may find himself black-listed if he tries to make a return to the industry after the next General Election.
  We in Scotland are vitally interested in the future of iron and steel. Today we produce 15 or 16 per cent. of the total steel production of the country. We have built up around steel a vast, complex organisation of ancillary and processing industries whose very life depends upon a constant supply of cheap steel. We have contributed to the full to the increased production for which the steel industry has got much credit from all speakers since nationalisation began to be mouthed about. We are told that this increased production is the result of team work in the steel industry, but I fail to see how this Bill in any way infringes upon the continuation of team work in the industry. There need be no disturbance of the essential structure of the industry, and I would like to state quite bluntly tonight that the increased production in the industry is due very largely to two factors with which the controlling power in steel has had very little to do.
  The first of these is that, for the first time in the history of the industry, it has tried to produce the maximum amount of

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  steel in this country. Secondly, it has been staffed by a body of operatives who have put their backs into meeting the country's need for steel. I wonder how much the increased production of steel today is due to the introduction of the continuous working week in the steel industry. I wonder, too, how much of it is due to the hard-working men putting their backs into the driving of obsolescent and out-dated plant in order to meet the immediate demands of our expanding industry. I am certain that if a proper assessment were made, it would be found that the steel industry owes more to the operatives who are working it today than it does to the executives who have been directing it in the past.
  I would like also to say quite frankly that we in the West of Scotland have no confidence whatever in the future of Scottish steel under private control. We base that knowledge on two sets of circumstances. It is no use the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan) telling us that we must not talk about the past. The people who are responsible for the past are the people who are again to be responsible for the future of the organisation of steel in our area, and we have had from them something which we do not look back upon with any great pleasure. I think of the vicissitudes of that industry during the time that I have been in contact with the steel industry—the strain thrown on local authorities, the closing down of plants suddenly, without consultation and without consideration for the social services developed in the area. In my little area I can look back to the closing of the Glasgow Iron and Steel works, with 3,000 workers, to the closing of the Pather Iron Works, to the dragging up by the roots of Messrs. Stewart and Lloyds at Bellshill and its planting down at Corby. These concentrations may be in the interests of the steel industry, but they were not decided by community interests, and the result was that areas of Lanarkshire were left derelict at that time by the people who ordered these transfers. Certain areas have not yet recovered. There is an indelible mark upon them because of the inconsiderate way in which those transfers were made.
  We can remember, too, in the steel industry periods when it gave us pros-
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  perity. Those were the only periods—the periods of boom—when there were decent wages paid in the steel industry. The wages in the steel industry were at starvation level except at boom periods. We can remember, too, the fact that we have had from the steel industry in our area industrial casualties on a large scale, and that one of our greatest problems in the 20 years past has been trying to find work for the men broken in that heavy industry, and on whose behalf we have had to fall back on the State, and not upon the industry, for support. We do not believe, those of us who know the industry, that the steel industry in Scotland is efficient. By its own admission, the steel industry is 30 per cent. inefficient. It must be more than that in our own area. From the speech of the hon. and gallant Member who preceded me, I can only think that in the minds of those who shape that industry today, restriction and dear prices are still the things on which they rely.
  We have had in Scotland difficulties in making steel. We have had our troubles and problems, but we have never faced them as they should have been faced, because the industry has been sheltering behind a monopoly façade. In Scotland today there is not one balanced steel plant. There have been sectional improvements and bits and pieces fitted into works, but there has been no long-term application to the industry of private planning for the future. We in Scotland are facing big problems of reconstruction. The iron and steel industry needs concentration, and it needs modernisation, which may possibly mean new sites. We believe that the people running it privately today are not the people who can reconstruct it for the benefit of the community.
  We have heard it stated that they can find the finances. We believe that there is more to it than that. The whole life of these localities is affected, and we think that in such a time and in such a question, when the whole life of the industrial part of the West of Scotland is to be affected by the reorganisation of the steel industry, that decisions should not lie in the hands of a handful of people who are primarily responsible to their shareholders and completely irresponsible to the community among whom they live. We believe that to leave that power in the

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  hands of a number of people, is dangerous to them and bad for the community. I make no suggestion that they are not capable, and I do not suggest that they are not public-spirited, but I do suggest that they must be influenced in their decisions by motives and ideals which are not for the benefit of the community but for the benefit of the interests of which they are the servants.
  We on this side believe that this Measure will give the steel industry in the West of Scotland an opportunity to plan efficiently a modern, a concentrated and an integrated industry, and we believe that in no other way can that be assured. I hope that the House will give the Bill the majority which it deserves.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Marples: I have listened to most of the speeches during the three days of this Debate. So far, there has not been a constructive speech from the opposite side showing what they propose to do with the industry and how they propose to make it efficient. We have had the same platform speeches, the same vague phrases and the same doctrines put forward over the entire three days by all hon. Members opposite, including the Minister of Supply and the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Alex. Anderson).
  I must make one protest before getting on to my main theme. Although it has given me great pleasure to listen to the flow of oratory which has come from the Front Benches, it would have given me even greater pleasure if some of the speeches had been a shade crisper, neater and shorter, and so given the back benchers on both sides a little less anxiety about making their contributions. Right hon. Gentleman on the Front Benches on both sides might realise that every alliance is the result of a shared hatred, and it may be that the back benchers in future will be combining in order to get more time for themselves.
  I shall try to be short in order to give hon. Gentleman opposite a chance of making their contributions. First, may I say that I am not a shareholder in any steel company and I have never been a shareholder in any steel company. But I am a consumer of the product, and I presume that I shall be represented by these consumers' committees about which the Minister of Supply spoke yesterday. I use large quantities of steel sheet piling
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  and rails. My experience of committee work does not give me the same pathetic reliance which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite place on their efficiency. The only way the consumer can really be protected is by taking effective action against the individual who is supplying him. When I have had difficulty with Government Departments about building and constructing I have never yet received any positive help from any committee they have formed. It is entirely the fault of the committee system, for the simple reason that it can be negative but it is rarely positive; it can go into history but it can rarely affect the future. All that happens is that a stereotyped Civil Service letter comes from the committee apologising for its inability to do anything.
  It reminds me of a friend of mine who was travelling in the United States in a railway coach over-night and was bitten by one or two insects that were travelling with him. He complained to the railway company and received a letter in reply saying, "This is extraordinary. It has never happened before in the history of the company. We will send a team of trained investigators to the spot to see that it does not happen again"—the usual Civil Service nonsense. My friend was quite satisfied until he held the envelope up to the light and saw in it a slip of paper which said, "Send this guy the bug letter."
  Mr. Follick: How many civil servants are there running the railways in America?
  Mr. Marples: I said "the usual Civil Service nonsense."
  Mr. Follick: From private enterprise.
  Mr. Marples: From State-owned railways. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There are two aspects of this problem and this was clearly stated by the Leader of the Liberal Party. The first is economic and the second is political. My first remarks concern the economic angle. The important question to ask ourselves is whether this Bill will produce cheap steel? At the present time the life of this country depends upon its success in solving the question of the balance of payments, and while it is important that the political question should be discussed, it is even more important at this juncture that the

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  economic angle should be discussed. "The Economist" of 6th November, puts it well:
  'The first and last test of this Bill is therefore this, will it produce steel at lower prices than would otherwise be charged?"
  The onus of proof that it will do so is entirely on the Government, and it is the duty of the Opposition to examine their arguments and criticise them if they can. That puts me in a dilemma, because no solitary argument has been adduced by the opposite benches to prove that the Government will produce steel cheaper and more plentifully than it is being produced now. In default of that, I propose to advance a few of my own reasons to show how steel will be produced less efficiently and less cheaply in the future and less easily than it is being produced.
  In addition to being a consumer, I am one of the hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House who have been the recipients of some sneers from the opposite benches because we have done our level best to go round the steel industry during the Recess in order to find out the facts. I do not think those sneers were deserved, because it is part of the duty of every Member of Parliament to find out what he can. I went round the industry not only to get the hones and the flesh of the facts, but the spirit of the facts, and this can only be obtained if a Member goes into the industry itself. I make no apology to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for trying to glean information which he has been fortunate enough to get during the course of his working life. I extend to him an invitation: any time he likes to come to any of my building sites, I will do what I can to give him the spirit of the facts in the building industry.
  The present position in the steel industry is that it is relatively efficient as compared with other industries. If we take the cost of ingredients, the raw materials have increased 80 per cent. over 1938 and the earnings have increased 100 per cent. But the final price of steel has increased only 69 per cent. That shows a fair degree of efficiency.
  Mr. Fernyhough: What is the increase over 1937?
  Mr. Marples: I have not got the increase over 1937 but I should think it is somewhat lower.
  Mr. Fernyhough: It is substantially heavier.
  Mr. Marples: If the hon. Member wants to give his contribution later, he can produce figures to show the House that it is substantially heavier, but as compared with 1938, the last full year before the war, the industry had advanced and shown great efficiency. Wages paid are greater than in almost any other industry in this country. They are much higher than in the building industry. The average wages in November, 1948, are £6 12s. 11d. in iron and steel while wages in the building industry are £6 0s. 5d.; therefore the industry is relatively efficient compared with other industries. However, that does not necessarily mean that it is absolutely efficient.
  There are two main reasons why, in my opinion any business is 100 per cent. efficient. The first is that the psychological climate should be right and the second is that mechanical methods of producing whatever the end product is should also be right. However, the most important aspect is the psychological climate. If that is wrong then no business can be efficient. A good administrative framework, excellent technical achievement, a smooth rhythm and flow of production cannot make an industry efficient without the right psychological climate. The hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo), who has had a good deal of experience in this respect, will agree with me that the psychological atmosphere is the most important thing in industry. Hon. Gentlemen opposite used that fact when they were discussing the coal industry, and it assisted their arguments a great deal, because they were able to prove that the psychological atmosphere in the coal industry was such that it was impossible to make it efficient unless something was done about it. The only thing they did not go on to say was why the psychological atmosphere was bad, and it was really because politicians deliberately created bad feeling in order to obtain political power. In his speech the Minister proposed to take over the esprit de corps of the iron and steel industry by legislation. He said:
  "Their personnel and internal organisations, and such esprit de corps as they may have achieved, will be unaffected. Indeed, on the morning after Vesting day the only difference for them will be that the ownership of the

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  securities has changed hands."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 63]
  Sooner or later, the Minister of Supply will find that esprit de corps cannot be taken over by legislation, and one of these days I expect the Socialist Party will produce a Bill to abolish original sin. They will give it three Readings and the Royal Assent. Then we shall all live happily ever after. Confidence and the correct atmosphere are difficult things to obtain in any industry. It takes hundreds of transactions, satisfactorily concluded to the benefit of both sides, before that confidence is built up, but it takes only one or two transactions at the most to destroy it. It is very easily destroyed and very hard to obtain.
  When I visited the industry I found that the psychological atmosphere and climate were extremely good. Taking the men first and the management second—otherwise we shall be open to a charge from hon. Members opposite—the relations between men and managements were very sweet and smooth. Queries were hammered out on the spot, efficiently and with lightning rapidity. The men also received their whack—I will call it whack because that is the best way of expressing it—of whatever cash benefits increased mechanisation had brought about. Some of the men in the melting shops were receiving £24 a week—quite rightly so, for they were producing the output. The point is that the sharing of the benefits of mechanisation had created confidence in the industry. I remember walking into a melting shop and the manager quite seriously told me I should not smoke a cigar in case the men were jealous of me for earning as much money as they were. The men are happy.
  I now turn to the psychological climate, so far as the management are concerned. If I harp on the management it is not because I am being partisan in any way, but because I think they are the most affected by the Bill. I wish to take four separate factors on management, which are important, and examine how those factors apply today and how they will apply after this Bill has passed. The first factor is promotion. At present the ladder of promotion is a reality and not a fiction. In some of the companies I visited, general managers and assistant managers of various steel melting shops
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  were promoted from the floor of the shop. One, who was a general manager, started by earning a few shillings a week, and a good percentage of the managers came up in the hard way. I met and interviewed about 40 managers altogether. It was my experience that throughout the industry the impression exists among the management that the ladder of promotion is a reality.
  I ask hon. Members opposite to consider this next point very seriously. The managers think that under nationalisation party political faithfulness will be the test for promotion. I do not say they are right, but that is what they think and if they think it the reactions on the industry will be just as bad as if it were right, because they have it in their minds. A story might illustrate that point. It is about a trade union delegate, a very efficient worker, who was offered promotion to become the foreman of a gas producer plant. He refused instantaneously because he said he would prefer to wait until nationalisation, when he would get a very much better job. He magnanimously went on to say to the manager, "It is all right, you have been a good manager and I will look after you and see that no harm comes to you." Hon. Members opposite know that that kind of thing is true of the industry. It has a very painful and harmful effect on the minds of the management. They think promotion will be dominated by pressure groups within the trade unions. This may be right, or wrong. All I say is that it is definitely in the minds of the management and, therefore, will affect their working when the industry is nationalised.
  The second factor of management is the question of hours spent on the job. At present managers come in on Sundays and some of them have a telephone by their bedside, and are prepared to spend an enormous amount of their own time, 24 hours a day if necessary, on the job. They say, "If we are made into a Civil Service, we do not expect to work those hours. We shall work the hours of any normal nationalised industry," which is by no means the same as in private enterprise. They intend to do the minimum. I telephoned a nationalised industry last Saturday morning to get some information about a very important contract which ran to more than

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  £1 million, but no one was there to answer the telephone.
  The third factor of management is the question of making decisions. Making decisions in any industrial factory or any process which has to produce an end product is the most important factor of all, in my opinion. A quick decision is often more vital than a correct decision. It is not always a question of choosing between a good decision and a bad decision, or between a right decision and a wrong decision, but often between the lesser of two evils, and a quick decision may be more important than a correct decision.
  I illustrate that by comparing it to a school which was opened last week and which my own firm built. The Minister of Education performed the opening ceremony last week. So far, it is the only school to be completed in contract time, and there are no extras of any sort to be paid for. One important reason for that—I am modest enough to withold the main reason—the subsidiary reason, is the fact that the architect of the local authority prepared his plans in plenty of time and in great detail. Further he delivered those plans to us and made instantaneous decisions so that unobtainable materials could be replaced by other materials which were available. Consequently, the school was built in time. Now at precisely the time that we started that school we started a similar school of the same size nearby. The same organisation, the same general manager and the same plant were available. Yet that school is not yet completed. It will take nine months more before it is completed. It will cost £40,000 in extras and the reason is that in the second case the architect has made decisions which were correct but never made them at the right time and early enough. Consequently the entire flow and rhythm has been disturbed from beginning to end.
  At the present time, in the iron and steel industry decisions are made verbally on the spot and if a man makes a wrong decision, providing he has made it in good faith, there is no post mortem which damages him, no loss of confidence and no "loss of face." When nationalisation comes, promotion will depend on two things, first, seniority, and, second. making no mistakes.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): How does the hon. Member know?
  Mr. Marples: Merely because it has happened in every nationalised industry. If a person is in a nationalised industry, or in the Civil Service for that matter, and makes a correct decision, he does not get promoted, but if he makes a wrong decision, he gets thrown out. That is the reason why he makes sure that his decision is a correct decision at the expense of time. That has happened in all the nationalised industries and will happen now, particularly if a trade union pressure group is able to pillory a manager they dislike because he has made a wrong decision.
  The fourth and final factor is top-level decisions. It is very important that a board which decides to have a new scheme shall be there when the scheme is created and still be there when it comes to fruition. They will then be responsible for their own scheme and accountable for the success or failure of it. It takes five years to build a steel plant, and it will probably take a little longer as steel plants get bigger. It is essential that there should be continuity at the top level. At the present time there is such continuity. Will there be continuity of these hoards under nationalisation? If political nominees are put on them, what will happen when political parties change? It is more than likely that the Ben Smiths and Citrines. if the Government intend to put them on the nationalised board, will have moved to another nationalised industry, and having approved a scheme will not he there to put it into operation, which is important from a business point of view.
  I intended to say something more about, management, but I turn for a moment to the political angle, mostly because of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last night. He appeared to think that only the Socialist Party in this country could stop Communism. He appeared to think that no one else could stop it. That made me look up the objects of the Socialist Party, which are the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange. The object of the Communist Party, as set out in the constitution of the Young Communist League, is:

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  "A Socialist Britain, in which the means of production, the factories, the mines and the land are owned by the people."
  By "the people" they mean the State. So the object which the Socialists have in mind is precisely the same as the object which the Communists have in mind, namely, that the State shall own all property. They have the same end and they are both exerting their wills to achieve that same end. But the methods and means of getting there are different. The Communists, unlike the Socialists, will not only the end but the means of getting there. They- impose physical sanctions, which are enforced to make people work and to make sure that the object of common ownership is a reality and will work. The Socialists have not that sanction. In its place they are hoping to change human nature. We have the Lord President of the Council saying in a speech "We must socialise men's minds." We have the hon. Gentleman the Member for North East Ham (Mr. Daines) saying in this House:
  "The plain fact to be faced—and I, as a Socialist, recognise it—is that Socialism is not only a means of economic change. Unless it has a spiritual content which is capable of changing men and men's nature, then it is bound to fail.…We must change men and their outlook."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 21st November, 1946; Vol. 430, c. 1045.]
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Marples: Hon. Gentlemen agree with that. But human nature has not been changed for 2,000 years, and when I see those faces across the Chamber I do not see much reason why it should change for them. Then there was the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth) who, in a sincere speech, said he was disappointed because the workers had not responded and worked for the nationalised industries as he thought they would. He was perfectly honest and sincere about it. Of course, they will not work harder for a nationalised industry than for a private industry. They are mostly interested in their own immediate surroundings and how they are faring in their job.
  Hon. Gentlemen think that this is a new problem. I went even further back than the Lord President of the Council, as far back as Aristotle, who is older and much wiser. He said:
  "Laws advocating it"—
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  that is, communal property—
  "have a specious appearance of benevolence…Men readily listen to them and are easily induced to believe that in some wonderful manner everybody will become everybody else's friend.
  These evils"—
  he concludes, somewhat brutally—
  "are due to a very different cause, the wickedness of human nature."
  The real answer is that the system that hon. Gentlemen opposite have in mind is a perfect system providing always they alter men's natures. They are hoping to alter men's nature and bend men to their system. They have made two vital miscalculations. The first is that they cannot produce motive power to move men to make them work for communal property. One of the most powerful and consistent urges—and this applies to politicians as well as to industrialists and workers—is personal interest. It is easy for a politician to see that if we increase men's wages they work much harder than if one turns their factories into State-owned property. If we doubled the wages in the steel industry today, we should get a better output than will be achieved merely by changing the ownership of the industry. That fact has to be faced by hon. Members opposite.
  The entire science of social organisation consists of steering that personal interest so that man may find his own advantage and profit in doing what is useful to society. In the olden days the Liberals used to affirm that laissez-faire was a good thing, and they realised a psychological truth when they said that the more freely men follow the impulsions of nature the greater would be the measure of their activity. They were perfectly right. The error they made was in assuming that the collective interest would always be served by the sum total of the individual interests. That will only occur when a very wise Government arranges its affairs so that what is disadvantageous to society is disadvantageous to the individual and what is advantageous to society is advantageous to the individual. It is advantageous today for a man to go into the black market, whereas the Government ought to make sure that what is good for the State is good for the individual and that what is bad for the State is bad for the individual. Until such time as they recognise that,

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  they will never have any success on the production side of our affairs.
  Another good reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer was wrong in saying that Socialism was the only thing that could stop Communism is provided by a quotation from the pen of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Food. In "The Theory and Practice of Socialism" the Minister of Food said:
  "It is quite impossible to establish Communism as the immediate successor to capitalism. Hence Communists work for the establishment of Socialism as a necessary stage on the road to Communism."
  Where is the Minister of Food? Does he still hold to that theory? If he thinks that, why does he not join the Communist Party? [An HON. MUMBER: "What about the Minister of Supply and the Minister of Health?"] I finish on this note: the survival of the fittest is a law which still holds good. The only difference is that the test of what is fit and what is not fit has altered. Previously it was efficiency in the economic field; now it is oratory on the soap box. The difference is that now it is political and no longer economic.
  Napoleon once said that we were a nation of shopkeepers. That is no longer true. We are a nation of politicians, and the pressure group with the greatest intensity of will and the most weight behind it will succeed in dominating our economic affairs. A distinguished foreigner said to me a few days ago, "It used to be said that 40 million Englishmen blew their noses. Now it is being said that Britain blows the noses of 40 million people." That shows what is happening in this country, with the Government taking charge of almost every side of our activity. Iron and steel is being thrown into the politicians' pool and will be divided out. It will be a most unedifying spectacle. I will conclude with the words of Balfour, which describe what will happen to any Socialist Party. He sent a message in 1920 to the Soviet Union, which was written in the third person. He said:
  "Mr. Balfour has never doubted the complete efficacy of the Soviet system for making rich men poor. It is in the more difficult, and in Mr. Balfour's opinion the more important task of making poor men rich that failure is to be feared."
  So it is with the Socialist Government.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mrs. Jean Mann: I represent a constituency known as "the Pittsburg of Scotland." I have entered this Debate with some trepidation, particularly as I have learnt how hon. Members opposite were becoming expert enough to enter the Debate by serving one week, sometimes two weeks, in the steel mills. I am sure that those of us who have listened to the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) will all congratulate him on the knowledge he has revealed of the importance of integration and its effect on the price level, and the knowledge he has displayed about iron ore deposits and the workers within the industry. It has, indeed, been very edifying to profit from that week's excursion into the steel industry by hon. Members opposite.
  I wish to reply to the statements made that the Bill has been brought forward because of pressure from the Left, that it is an election plot and that it has been introduced for political reasons. I wish to draw attention to the fact that in my constituency, even before I was adopted as candidate, the workers in the British iron and steel and kindred trades approached me about the conditions in that industry in Coatbridge. They said that because of non-co-operation and the non-integration of processes, prices were 50 per cent. above world prices. They said their average wage was £4 16s. 0d. per week. I am still using the same little piece of flimsy paper with the notes which I got about these matters before I was even chosen as a candidate. Those men said they were operating a 1783 two-roll system for rolling puddled iron and that the plant was still operating. In their memorandum to me they said the units were small, numerous and widespread throughout the district. Amongst the great many other things of which they talked, the mixed mills were said to be small and out of date and unable to compete with modern mills. But they are still being retained, in spite of all that was said this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan).
  They said that the prosperity of Coat-bridge could not be left to the whim of unco-ordinated private firms. They were joined by one for whom, I think, all in the industry have a great respect. I

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  refer to William Stewart, of Stewarts and Lloyds. I like Mr. Stewart and I like his name, because it is the same as one most dear to myself who served 50 years in the industry—another William Stewart. I have good reason to respect both these William Stewarts. My father gave of his best. He worked long and hard and arduously. He considered it was a great compliment that when there was a payoff and a dismissal he was always the last man to go.
  But I wish to speak of the Mr. Stewart of Stewarts and Lloyds, because it has been pointed out that there has been a reorganisation between the two wars. I think the right hon. Member for the City of London told us how well the industry had done between the two wars. He told us that the subsidy which they got was not, as Mr. Crowther, of the "Economist" said, a waste of money, and that reorganisation did not take place. "Any benefits could hardly be detected through a microscope."
  The right hon. Gentleman painted an entirely different picture. He said that the subsidy was a subsidy to the consumer. I wonder, then, why Lord Nuffield became so impetuously angry as to remark that, were he a younger man, he would start up himself. If it were a subsidy to the consumer, can we have an explanation why so many consumers still bought from abroad? The right hon. Gentleman told us about the reorganisation and we are left to believe that everything is all right now. But Mr. Stewart, of Stewart and Lloyds, in an address to a conference of the Town and Country Planning Association said:
  "Scottish steel works, with one exception (Clydebridge), are not integrated…they have no coke ovens and no blast furnaces and have to manufacture gas specially for smelting cold pig iron and scrap, whereas in an integrated work the flow of materials from one operation to the next with the minimum of handling and the maximum conservation of heat, and the use of the blast furnace and coke oven gas, combine to reduce the cost of production to a level unattainable in unintegrated works…"
  Mr. Stewart pointed out that as long ago as 1929 American consultants had come to the Clyde and had spoken of the necessity of co-ordination. He remarked upon his agreement with them. But then the Imports Duty Advisory Council, of whom Mr. May was Chairman and which issued from time to time what was known as the
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  May Reports, suggested that the Clyde-bridge site—which, however, would add shillings per ton to production costs—should be the chosen site. Mr. Stewart says that the reasons given in the May Report were unconvincing and that one of them—that Messrs. Colville's undertaking was already largely concentrated in Clydebridge—was definitely wrong. I notice he also told the delegates,
  "If nationalisation of the steel industry goes forward"—
  and he did not say it was merely a political plot—
  "as we must assume it will in view of the utterances of the Labour Government…"
  he hoped that this integration would take place.
  I noticed also that the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) made one or two statements in favour of the industry. I will pass over the one that the Socialist Government have selected this industry for its malice. I think that is a statement unworthy of the right hon. Gentleman. However, I want to dwell on this one. The right hon. Gentleman said that the steel industry in war time did not let him down. The steel industry is responsible for equipping the Army, the Navy and the Air Force. It is most important, in my opinion and the opinion of most Socialists, that a lifeline like that should not be owned and controlled on a profit motive basis. I am not saying anything against the profit motive. As a Scotswoman I like incentive, and if I am in business I certainly expect to make a profit. I consider, however, that there are some things which must be regarded above profit, important as that is.
  I want to know whether the steel industry did not let down the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in peace time. I remember that on the last Sunday in March, 1944, the right hon. Gentleman told us in a broadcast that the steel industry would give us 500,000 houses. Has anyone seen those Portal houses? Who let down whom? The houses have not materialised. Did the right hon. Gentleman thoroughly analyse this matter before he made such an important statement to the nation, a statement which keyed up all men and women at home and abroad, or was he talking through his hat? Did the steel industry not co-operate with him? There

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  is something here which we and he ought to get straight.
  Not only does the steel industry control our lives in peace and in war; I find that it controls pins and needles, razor blades, cutlery, jam tins and biscuit tins, chairs, hardware and hollow-ware, wire and wire manufacture, coal-cutters, textile looms, milking machines, tractors, bridges, buildings, factories and office blocks, mills, shipbuilding, marine and mechanical engineering, railways and rolling stock, rivets, bolts, nuts, screws and chains, forgings, motor cars and motor cycles, aircraft, collieries, and electric engineering, to mention a few. Does any reasonable person pretend that such power should be in the hands of a private monopoly? I find that there are jobs for the boys.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: And for the girls.
  Mrs. Mann: They hold seats in companies ranging from iron and steel proper to chemicals, motor cycles and bicycles, shipbuilding, docks, engineering, aircraft and cable works, down to Smith's potato crisps. Yet we were told by the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) that the young men from the London School of Economics would find jobs in our proposals. An hon. Member remarked there were jobs for the girls. We do not mind people having had jobs; what we do mind is people having remuneration and never having had jobs. It is very peculiar that those who all through their lives have drawn unearned income, the boys who never had jobs, should be the first to talk about a few directors who earn £7,000 a year, most of which is subject to 19s. 6d. in the £ in Income Tax. So far as the girls are concerned, hon. Members can ask their aunt or their grandmother what she did in industry to derive constantly from year to year unearned increment to such an extent that her very appearance at a garden party would bring the exclamation:
  "They toil not neither do they spin. And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these."
  Hon. Members opposite defend the system which has provided for those who never made any contribution to the cause of humanity.
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  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) said:
  "We believe that the prices charged by the industry should be subject to Government supervision and approval."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 95.]
  That is a statement of the policy of the Opposition. I wonder when they believed that the prices should be subject to Government supervision and approval. Only when they were forced by economic circumstances and public opinion did they even agree to go that length with us. That statement means responsibility without power. We have heard criticism about people having power without responsibility, but when the Opposition lay down their policy that the prices charged should be subject to Government supervision and control, it is nonsensical to give the Government responsibility without giving them adequate power. The Bill is necessary in the interests of our great country. It will make her a greater country.
  6.48 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam: I do not intend to detain the House many minutes. It has been a misfortune in this Debate that there have been so many long speeches from both sides of the House. I agreed with the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) when he made a similar remark, but he then proceeded to speak for the same length of time as, or rather longer than, the previous speaker, which rather disappointed me.
  Anybody who represents, as I do, a constituency in the Tyne area must say a few words on this Bill, which must affect many of the inhabitants of this great industrial area. I have listened to the greater part of the Debate. I do not think that any completely impartial person following the Debate would say that the Government have disclosed any practical policy for the future conduct of the iron and steel industry and its development under State ownership. No Minister or other hon. Member on the other side of the House has shown how the industry is to be made more efficient by its transference from private to public ownership. The Minister of Supply in his opening speech, which seemed to me to be a partisan and political pronouncement and therefore scarcely worthy of such an occasion, made no serious

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  attempt to enlighten the House as to how a Government monopoly of the industry could improve upon the work of the Government controlled monopoly which now exists.
  The Minister told the House:
  "In our view it would be madness for a Government determined to build the nation's future prosperity on sound economic foundations to perpetuate in this basic industry a system in which serious clashes on matters of major policy between private and public interests are bound sooner or later to arise, possibly with the gravest consequences."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 57.]
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech last night made very much the same observations. Yet neither Minister gave the House any example of what they meant, or explained how the industry, which is already under the control of the Government, could effectively oppose their policy.
  It would appear that the possibility of conflict is the real case for the Bill, for as "The Times" put it—and I quote an English paper, rather than an American, as did the hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay)—in its leading article yesterday:
  "This is the bogy produced to explain it away. If the industry is not nationalised, it is alleged, a conflict is bound to occur, at some unstated date in the future, between 'the steel-masters in Steel House' and the public interest."
  I find it almost impossible to accept this point of view. It is based, presumably, on the supposition that the steelmasters are wholly concerned with their own profits and their own private interests, and are entirely destitute of any public spirit whatsoever. There is no foundation for such an opinion—except that they may, as individuals, differ from the Socialist Party in its conception of politics and economics. In any case, even if the steelmasters be old-fashioned enough to believe in the capitalist system—which, incidentally, has done so much to build up the greatness of this country and to improve the standard of living of the people—they are today sufficiently under the control of the State to find it impossible to obstruct, as was suggested, the policy of the Government, whichever party may be in power. This should be evident to the meanest intelligence.
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  The monopoly which the steelmasters now possess is a controlled monopoly, because steel prices are now fixed publicly by the Minister of Supply through a Government Order. There is therefore, no question of the steelmasters themselves fixing prices to the detriment of the consumer. There is no trade or industry about which more definite knowledge is available to the Government, or over which the Government have more power. The interests of the steelmasters lie in extending output and in reducing costs. The interests of efficient production are identical in both cases, and the discipline of private responsibility in competition between firms ensures the drive towards efficiency.
  The alternative proposed in the present Bill is a tight and rigid monopoly, with all the powers concentrated instead of dispersed, as under the present system. Prices are to be fixed by the new Corporation: this would constitute a true monopoly, with the interest in high profits and high prices in the same hands, and with no effective control on the efficiency of firms. We have already had experience in nationalised industries of the tendency to put up the price to the consumer, and there is nothing that I can see in this Bill to prevent the same thing happening if this Bill becomes law. It is even a matter of doubt whether, under the terms of the Bill, the Minister will have much, or indeed any, power in the fixing of prices: this power is to rest entirely with the Corporation.
  No evidence has been brought forward in the Debate by responsible speakers opposite to suggest that the iron and steel industry is not being conducted to the best advantage. Facts and figures are far too strong for any such suggestion to be made. Why then, except for political motives, should there be this wanton abandonment of a great development scheme which has already been accepted by the Government and is working well? This is a time when the efficiency and productivity of the steel industry are all-important for our national economic regeneration and recovery. There is nothing in this Bill to convince me that it will do anything to provide such recovery, while it must inevitably, if it becomes law, create much unrest and dissatisfaction within the industry itself.

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  Under the Bill the State abdicates its present impartial position between producer and consumer and becomes a competitor in many different industries, subjecting them to a risk of disorganisation and unrest. Within the iron and steel industry itself a State monopoly is to be substituted for invigorating competition, the value of which even Ministers have admitted. The Corporation which the Bill sets up is assigned no duty, as far as I can make out, to produce effectively at the lowest possible cost; is given no direction to be impartial in its price schedules or in the distribution of its products; and is subjected to none but the vaguest kinds of safeguards to the consumer. It seems to me unnecessary to bring in the Bill. It is brought in only because of the clamour of the extremists opposite, who are anxious to do all they can to set up in this country an economic system such as exists in Russia.
  It has been truly said by my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey that there is little difference between the economic State desired by Social democrats and that which is desired by Communists. That is absolutely true. The only difference between the party opposite and the Communists is that the party opposite is proceeding by the obvious and correct legal procedure in its attempt whereas the Communists might use force—as, indeed, was suggested by the Chancellor in his speech last night; he brought that in at the end of his speech, I suppose as a bogy to alarm us on this side of the House. We are not alarmed. We are prepared to believe in the commonsense of the majority of the British people, whose support we believe is behind us in our opposition to this Bill.
  6.59 p.m.
  Mr. William Paling: I shall not detain the House long in the remarks I have to make, therefore perhaps I may be excused if I do not follow the line taken by the right hon. and gallant Member for North Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Sir C. Headlam). This Debate has created much interest, both inside and outside the House, because of the issues involved. Much interest has also been aroused because the question
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  of nationalisation has been an issue before the country for many years. The people of our country are fairly well aware of the object behind nationalisation, and of the economic circumstances behind the policies of this Government in bringing this Iron and Steel Bill to the House. The Government are charged with having no justification for bringing this Bill forward. Apparently everything is as it should be inside the iron and steel industry. It has been said before this afternoon, that in order to be able to gain some idea of the future we often have to look to the past form which we gain valuable experience. In the past history of industry we can trace the development of private enterprise, and it is because of that past experience that the people of this country have come to regard the idea of nationalising this basic industry as in the interests of the country.
  Without going into too many facts and figures about past history, we can divide private enterprise in the basic industries into two categories. The first category concerns those who owing to their inability to organise or amalgamate have failed lamentably in their efforts to rejuvenate the basic industries in the interest of the progress of the country. Most of those industries have now been taken over and nationalised. The second group, in which iron and steel are included, has after many failures and attempts to organise and amalgamate eventually came to some agreement for organisation and amalgamation after large financial assistance was forthcoming, and gradually a monopoly or cartel was formed. Inside that monopoly, however, we have seen very little done in regard to the reorganisation of the industry with a view to making it a more efficient unit.
  So much so is that the case that the companies in that monopoly have sheltered themselves inside the cartel or monopoly and have not had the experience of competition in the open market. The sectors they did recognise, to some extent became efficient organisations and units in this great industry. That is where the industry finds itself at the present time, but during the whole of the time that the monopoly of iron and steel was being built up, they failed to take the initial steps to safeguard their own particular interest by making it sufficiently important and efficient to be able

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  to supply the needs of this country at the present moment.
  We are asked how we prove that the industry is not up-to-date and is incapable of the job required of it in the future. In that connection we have had quotations from my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) as well as from others. I want to make an addition to those, and it is from the United States' report on the United Kingdom's part in the European Recovery Programme, which is as important and impartial a statement as any which we could get on the industries of this country. Here is the quotation:
  "In iron and steel the plant capacity is inadequate for current needs."
  Tonight we have had another statement, which came this time from the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples). He was discussing the position of the iron and steel industry today and he said that the industry was relatively efficient. He went on later to argue that in relative efficiency it compared well with other industries. Is he comparing it with those basic industries which got into such an unholy mess that this Government had to nationalise them? Is he saying that the iron and steel industry today is only relatively efficient when compared with the standard prevailing in those other industries in 1945? In words which were formerly used by the Opposition, what has been said about the efficiency of the industry apparently stands condemned.
  Secondly, we see the industry as a monopoly or as a huge octopus with its tentacles sticking out in every direction, and it is most important it this country is going to rebuild its industrial life in the future and regain its place as the foremost industrial nation of the world, that something should be done to make sure that the basic industries should be in the front rank of efficiency. It is the Government who hitherto have entered those industries to see that proper efficiency was carried through. The point I wish to make is that up to now the initial steps have not been taken to provide an industry commensurate with the needs of this country. Because of that I support the Government in bringing forward this Bill to nationalise this most important industry.
  The third point—and on this I finish in order to give other speakers a chance
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  —is that the power of the iron and steel industry as a monopoly is in itself sufficient to make the Government take it into their own hands. We are told that the Government have some supervisory control over this monopoly, but that control is not sufficient to demand the re-equipment and reorganisation of the industry. It is the Government's job to step in and take over the industry in order that it can become more efficient in the future.
  There are many other points arising out of this question of iron and steel and the efficiency of the industry on which I should like to touch, but I shall content myself with saying that efficiency is demanded in this industry because of the demands which the country must make upon it for future development. If this country is to become an important industrial nation, taking its place side by side with other countries, something must be done immediately, and I hope that this Bill, because it is taking the right step, will gain all the support necessary.
  7.10 p.m.
  Mr. Edgar Granville: I agree with the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. William Paling) that this Debate, which has now gone on nearly three days, has centred around public ownership of the iron and steel industry as against public control. It is generally agreed, I think, that this major industry is not likely to go back to purely private enterprise as such in our lifetime. In the case of many major industries, this question of public ownership as against public control has very often become in practice a question of degree rather than of pure principle. As has been said, in this country today, and in many industrial countries, we have in effect a good deal of State-aided monopoly capitalism based on material allocations. The one thing that this Debate has brought out is that if we are to remain a free democracy, then this House and Parliament must be the final check and control.
  In 1945 the Government began their programme for nationalising the essential public utilities, and the Liberal Party supported them. The Government were then faced with a world shortage of raw materials, and with large-scale industry having been under Government control for six years and dependent very largely on Government orders. I think Members

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  opposite have admitted in this Debate that the Government had not thought out the technique for running these new State industries, and experience during the Committee stages of the Measures setting them up and in the industries themselves has shown this to be true. We do not, quite frankly, know the answer to a lot of the difficult questions which have arisen. We do not yet know what is the incentive to efficient production in these State industries, or what is to be the new technique of supervision and management. We do not know what is to be the technique or methods of the new joint councils, or what is to be the basis or working system for the allocation and distribution of essential materials. We do not know what is to be the position of the small, efficient producer-units competing with Government industries. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), in the Debate on the Address, made a number of suggestions regarding the sub-division of the area boards, but we do not know whether we are right in thinking in terms of central boards, area boards, or even smaller boards to run and advise these industries. We are still in the experimental stages.
  The Lord President of the Council has said, in one of the many statements he has made upon this subject, that there is a place for public enterprise and a place for private enterprise, but the determining factor is that it must be enterprise. What the right hon. Gentleman did not say is what is to be the working relationship in the new type of national controlled economy between public and private enterprise. Take the position of the small producer. Is he to have a charter and "Bill of Rights" in this Iron and Steel Bill? Is he to have a licence or not to have a licence if he is too small? Is a licence to be his only safeguard against monopoly with all its tremendous advantages? Is the small producer to be allowed to use the processes of the consumer committees, and to use the national facilities, such as research? I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary nods his head in assent. Then I ask him whether there is any avenue whereby the small efficient producer, in contradistinction to the consumer of steel, can make his views known to the consumer committees and thereby
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  have his problems raised here by Question and answer in Parliament? I have yet to hear the Government indicate that they have given this sufficient study.
  There was nothing in the other nationalisation Measures to safeguard the small, efficient producer, or the man with new techniques and ideas. There was nothing put into the Civil Aviation Measure. The Conservative Party were apathetic, while some of us were pressing for some such positive statutory right in the Bill. The Conservatives are the fathers of monopoly. In 1937 they started it in Civil Aviation. In 1932 they began the process in the steel industry. If the Conservatives are the fathers of modern monopoly, the Government must be the mothers, and that is why this present hybrid economy has been produced.
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: The hon. Member supported that Bill.
  Mr. Granville: I have tried to say something in practical defence of the small producer, but the right hon. Gentleman and his friends did not think that was worth while then. The newcomer surely is the lifeblood of private enterprise. We have to face the fact that many of the State omelettes will never be unscrambled, and we have to study them accordingly. No doubt we shall have chairs in the universities and so on for the study of the hundred and one technical problems involved in these large industries under Government direction.
  Mr. Bracken: Professors of nationalisation.
  Mr. Granville: The Liberal Party have studied this Bill carefully, although, judging from many of the interruptions, a lot of Members may not even have read it. We have listened to the speeches from both sides, and we are certainly not impressed with the speeches that have come from the Conservative Opposition. We are not convinced that major changes cannot be effected in the iron and steel industry without a change in the share ownership. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) has said that by taking this new step the Government are putting the cart before the horse, but I would say they are putting the cartel before the horse—in this case the horse being the public.

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  We think there should be an inquiry to study the results of the existing experiments, an inquiry into the relationship between the State and ordinary industry, and a study of the forms of control and of the present iron and steel set-up. The Liberal Party is pledged to judge each of these cases on its economic merits. We think that the economic case for a share transfer as a prerequisite has not been made out so far and that many of the great changes envisaged in this Bill could be carried out without that happening. Therefore, we do not feel justified in supporting the Second Reading of this Measure, and it is our decision as a party to vote against it tonight.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. Kendall: I wish to be very brief, and put only one or two points to the House, but before doing so I would like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan) on the speech which he made today. I thought it was one of the most brilliant I have listened to in this Debate. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the steel industry had been very efficient between the two wars. I lived and worked on the Continent in those days, and, among other steels, I purchased a great deal of sheet steel. I had the markets of the world open to me, but I always found that both in quality and cost the sheet steel I could buy from America was better than that which I could buy in this country. It seems to me that the Tory Party have failed to make their case on at least the issue of efficiency, especially as they found it necessary to put on such big tariffs on steel imports to protect the industry. If the steel industry was as efficient as it is now claimed to be, it could have done without tariffs, and sold its products in world markets in competition with other steel manufacturers.
  On the other hand, I must say that the Government themselves are causing a great deal of concern to many ordinary people. That concern is based not on the merits of this Bill, but on the industries the Government are already operating as nationalised industries. Those industries have not been made as efficient as they should be—judging by the signs the Parliamentary Secretary is making he is probably trying to indicate that the Government have not had sufficient time.
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  That reinforces the fears of people outside this House, who would rather see the Government make the industries they have taken over really efficient before any more industries were nationalised. It is quite possible for the administration of the State to weaken and indeed collapse, if it takes on too much at once.
  If it were simply a case of taking a monopoly out of the hands of private enterprise I should unhesitatingly vote with the Government tonight, because I and others who do not belong to either of the big parties have pledged ourselves to try to help the little man against monopolies. But it is not so simple. There is something, however, which can be done which would help me to make up my mind as to how I shall vote tonight. I think it is about time that a responsible Minister let the country know when nationalisation will stop. Unless such an announcement is made, people in other industries which have not been nationalised, especially the small industries, will be afraid to put forward their best efforts; they will not know if and when they themselves will be taken over. If I could be satisfied that apart from public utilities, the Government would stop their nationalisation with the taking over of the iron and steel industry I might feel inclined to say, "I will give you a chance once more to show what you can do, in the hope that you will get on faster and better with this job than with some of the jobs you have taken over." But unless I can be absolutely satisfied on this major point, I shall unquestionably have to go into the Division Lobby against the Government.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: I am glad that I have caught your eye even at this late hour, Mr. Speaker, because my constituency, which is in the North-East area of England, produces over one-fifth of the steel of this country. As I listened to the case of the Opposition, it seemed that they are faced with two dilemmas. One is the attempt to base their opposition to the Government's nationalisation policy on the past record of the industry, on a case which, I believe, cannot stand up to a fair analysis. The other is their attempt to base their case on the future prospects of the industry. They say they intend to remedy the defects of the past, but if we

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  refer to the past, we find that certain questions must emerge. Are the Opposition really satisfied that the management and control of the steel industry in the past has been exemplary? Are they satisfied with the progress and efficiency of the industry as compared, for instance, with the steel industries of the United States, Luxembourg, Belgium and prewar Germany?
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) blamed past Tory policy for not giving the steel industry an opportunity such as was given to the steel industries of the foreign countries I have just mentioned. He said that those industries had gained advantages which our industry at home had not received. Surely that is an argument for closer co-operation with the Government than was possible by the old methods of organising the industry.
  Mr. William Shepherd: When my right hon. Friend made his statement about the advantages which had been obtained by Belgium and Luxembourg he was referring to plants established as a result of reparations, and very low-level wages. The hon. Member should not misrepresent my right hon. Friend in the way he is doing now.
  Mr. Cooper: The right hon. Gentleman made the point that the industries of those countries received tariff advantages before our industry. If that was a sound argument—and I am not suggesting it was—surely the steel industry will benefit from closer co-operation with the Government than there was in the past. I have just been handed a copy of HANSARD, and here is what the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "…the industry had no tariff protection while its competitors had."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 80.]
  That supports what I have just said.
  There are one or two examples to show that the industry has made some efforts to reorganise itself, but they are only isolated examples. This is confirmed by a quick look into the past. We recall that in 1930 the second Labour Government appointed a committee of inquiry into the steel industry. That inquiry was conducted by Lord Sankey. Their report was never published, but this was said by D. L. Burn in his "Economic History of Steel Making":
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  "The report judged the smelting and coke making branches of the industry wholly inadequate and antiquated; ore-mining and steelmaking branches less so, but still in need of great expenditure."
  Apart from a few examples, the same position obtains today. This condition is admitted by the Iron and Steel Federation's own plan, which they published in 1946. They suggested that they would need to spend £168 million—a figure which would probably have to be vastly increased today. Is this adequate? In any case would this plan be carried out if the steel industry were left to itself and the demand for steel, for example, started to fall off in a year or two? It may well be that under those circumstances it would be abandoned.
  Looking at the question whether the plan is adequate, we recall that the steel consumption in this country works out at 3 tons per head of the population, whereas in America it is 6. We can take that as an indication of the standards of living in the two countries. This plan suggests that we should increase steel production in this country to only some 18 million tons. Is it not necessary to think in terms of a maximum production far greater than that—something nearer 30 million tons, which would bring the consumption of steel per head of the population nearer to that of the United States?
  When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan) referred to this plan as having been agreed by all concerned, and consequently received a cheer from hon. Members behind him, I recalled that in the local newspaper, shortly after this White Paper was published, there were reports of considerable complaints from sections of the industry which it was suggested should be closed down. That indicated that by no means was there the agreement which he suggested. I took the trouble to look up the copy of "The Times" and I can quote from the issue of 9th May, 1946, which reads:
  "The South Durham Steel and Iron Company stated yesterday that the report of the British Iron and Steel Federation on the iron and steel industry, so far as the company and its subsidiary, Cargo Fleet Iron, are concerned, would require some modification. If the proposals were carried out, the company added, dislocation of a large body of labour at West Hartlepool would result."

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  I suggest that that refutes his suggestion that it was an agreed scheme. What would occur if, as was suggested under this scheme, certain plants were to be closed down? Does he suppose there would be no objection from those inefficient firms? What would they do in those circumstances? Would they have to come to this House and ask for a measure of authority to be given them so as to ensure the closing down of these plants? Or was it supposed they would be able to squeeze them out in some other way having little regard to the labour employed in those works? I wonder who would stand for such power being given to a private monopoly? I do not think that such a Bill would be passed if it were asked for in this House.
  Under private capitalism financial considerations must always predominate. The Government are being accused of one of two things, either merely taking the steel owners' plan and turning it to their own account or not having any vast new plan of their own. That was the accusation made by the right hon. Member for Aldershot when he complained that there was no new plan put forward from this side of the House. I ask the Opposition—are plans put into Bills in this way? Of course not. They know perfectly well that any plan, however expertly devised, is bound to be subjected to all sorts of variations, and it would not be possible to come to this House and ask for permission to vary them. I suggest, therefore, that to say that, because the Government have not included in the Bill plans which might be criticised on the Floor of the House, they have no plan, is a shallow criticism. The important thing with any plans is to consider whether they will work. Is it intended to carry out those plans? That can be determined only by actual practical application.
  Mr. Bracken: What are the plans?
  Mr. Cooper: If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene, I will allow him to do so. He is apparently allowing me to continue, and anyway I will refer later to some of these plans. The industry gave an undertaking to reorganise itself after a 33⅓ per cent. tariff had been given. This tariff was introduced by the National Government in 1931. It was renewed two years afterwards, in 1933, for a further two years, at what amounted to
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  a 50 per cent. tariff, on the recommendation of the Tariff Advisory Board. But they made a condition that satisfactory progress was made in introducing a scheme for reorganisation.
  The extraordinary thing is that a national committee representing the owners of the industry, in March, 1933, actually advocated the formation of a national body. The Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain was proposed. There were to be 11 sections, and the Corporation was to work through regional committees. This complete centralisation was nothing more nor less than advocating nationalisation in principle, but they proposed that it should still be held in the hands of owners. That was advocated by the owners themselves over 15 years ago, and yet now the Opposition are actually criticising the same plan that this Government is proposing to introduce.
  It is interesting to note the comment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time. When he had seen these proposals, he said that much remained to be done before the industry could be considered to be properly equipped and organised. That was a comment coming from a Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Neville Chamberlain. Yet in 1934 a new scheme was put forward which was even less effective, and "The Times" commented:
  "The new scheme may mean anything or nothing.…If the industry fails to take reorganisation seriously, then it can hardly expect either the public or the Government to view its inactivity with indifference."
  The rub over this Measure which the Government are introducing is that the Government propose to take some real action and not to follow the inactivity and indifference of previous Governments. I can speak for Teeside, and I can speak with some authority. I have seen the conditions which prevailed there between the two wars. The workers in that part of the country were under the constant stress and fear of unemployment. If any man who remembers that period is asked, he will express that fear as one of the things which persuades him of the need for a national policy to be proceeded with in connection with steel in the future.
  The real tragedy is that the steel industry has been prosperous and has had assured employment only during periods

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  of war and rumours of war. What the Government are proposing to do is to see that there are the same conditions of security even in peace time. If we look to the future we shall sec that there is full employment for the industry and full prosperity. Can those things be in any way guaranteed or assured by the Opposition if the same methods and organisation continue in the industry as apply now? I suggest that these things cannot possibly obtain without full Government backing and support. In fact the Conservative Party's recent leaflet, which was quoted earlier in the Debate by the hon. Member for Central Southwark (Mr. Jenkins), even gave support to the contention that there is need for full Government backing before any progress can be expected in the industry.
  I was questioned by the right hon. Member for Bournemouth as to what were the plans of this Government for combating these evils of the past. I suggest that this Government would do several things—and I can only speak in general terms. They would plan production—that is obvious. They would increase efficiency—that is obvious. They would reduce costs. This Government would see that the inefficiency of the past is remedied in the future. One important consideration is that this Government would see that there was a planning of consumption. But none of these things is in the Tory Party policy. What if there were a trade recession such as was referred to by the hon. Member for Stockport (Sir A. Gridley)? What would they do? Would they restrict output and cut wages? That is what they did before. Would they do something different in the future?
  Mr. Niall Macpherson: What would a nationalised industry do in that case?
  Mr. Cooper: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me an opportunity to continue. The Government would immediately initiate the speeding-up of such schemes as the Colonial development schemes on which we have already embarked. At present we are putting all the resources we can possibly spare into the building up of Colonial development schemes. Similar schemes could be implemented to make up for some of the
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  neglect of the Colonies which has been allowed at the instigation of the Opposition. We should build up schemes of Colonial development even greater than those now in process in order to absorb the steel which would be produced as a result of the increased capacity of the nationalised industry.
  Mr. Sidney Marshall: Over-production.
  Mr. Cooper: No question of over-production could occur for 50 years if the full schemes of development were put forward, such as are required for colonial development at present.
  I do not think that this is a perfect Bill. In subsequent stages of its passage through this House certain Amendments will be put forward, perhaps by both sides. I was impressed on reading the proposals which the workers in the industry put forward in 1933 and 1934. They were published in a pamphlet by the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation. In comparing these proposals with this Bill, I see that there are certain omissions. I consider these omissions so important that they should be mentioned. The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the need for increasing the power and influence of democracy in this country—the need to spread democracy right into industry. I am not sure that this Bill will achieve that. In the pamphlet published by the workers' organisation, they ask for participation in management. They ask for an opportunity to have some say even in policy. I consider that the ideas they put forward are ideas which we must take into account if we are to ensure the very necessary good relationship in the industry and the right psychological atmosphere which is so important to the running of any successful industry.
  Therefore, I wish to make one proposal of which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take note. In order to give effect to this idea, there should be some system for spreading the democratic influence of the workers in the industry. That could be achieved by forming a national council made up of representatives of the technicians and the workers, the producers and consumers. That council should be brought together at a national level so that it can consider and debate the problems of the industry

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  at top level. At present the workers in some of the existing nationalised industries have a feeling of remoteness from the Boards which have been set up. I think that the council which I propose would give effect to that greater democratic spirit which we all want to see. A fuller argument on that point can be put forward at a later stage. If effect is given to this proposal, which would permit important democratic opinion in the industry to be expressed, then there need be no fear but that the industry will go forward to greater achievements than it has ever known in the past.
  7.45 p.m.
  Colonel Lancaster: It is inevitable by the end of a three-day Debate that a variety of reasons should be put forward by the Government supporters in support of a Bill of this nature. The one supplied by the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper) about the expansion of the industry to a level of 30 million tons seems somewhat original. The disturbing fact to hon. Members on this side of the House has been that no speaker either from the Government Front or Back Benches has supported the contention which the Lord President of the Council made that this Bill should be judged on its merits. That seemed to me a most sensible yardstick to apply in a case such as this. We expected to hear a number of reasoned statements showing that by virtue of passing this Bill we should have as much steel and iron as we require and that it would be of the right quality at the right price. I have listened most attentively during this Debate in the hope that I should have some guidance about how that was to be achieved. I must say that certainly no Front Bench speaker has addressed himself to this practical and important consideration.
  Before I go further I must, as is customary, acknowledge that I have a personal interest in this matter. I am that most evil of all combinations—a coal baron and an ironmaster. If in the course of my remarks I tend to make some comparison between the experience of the one industry compared with the other, it is because before deciding this matter I think that we should be well advised to consider what the Government have done in their previous nationalisation of a basic
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  industry. The circumstances of the introduction of this Measure are quite different. Psychologically, the ground had been laid for coal nationalisation over a generation, and the conditions in 1945 were ideal for the putting forward of a case to the nation. There was low output, maintenance had fallen, Government control had had its effect, the Essential Work Order and a number of other factors had brought about conditions which gave an admirable opportunity for showing what could be done to bring the industry from the low level to which it had fallen. A fly in the ointment from the point of view of the supporters of that case was that there were somewhat annoying figures in 1938 and 1939 and a tendency, just prior to vesting date, for an improvement in the industry. Of course, that was put down to enthusiasm at the prospect of nationalisation. We heard something of the same argument this afternoon.
  There the analogy ends. None of those reasons can be put forward on this occasion. Therefore, we must compare the industries so far as they can be compared. First, this is primarily an extractive industry. The iron ore must be won before either steel or foundry iron can be made. I have not heard it suggested, and I do not expect to hear it, that the extraction of iron ore in this country is carried out inefficiently. It may interest hon. Members to compare the cost of the extraction of iron ore to that of the cost of opencast mining. They are similar processes with very much the same amount of over-burden, and the product is not wholly dissimilar. The average cost of winning a ton of iron ore is between 5s. and 6s. The average cost of winning a ton of opencast coat is nearly 50s. What is the reason for that? One system was introduced during the war under Government control. Civil engineering firms took on the job at an enhanced price and that system has been continued under nationalisation. There is a disparity there which wants a great deal of explanation, and I mention it in particular because its psychological effect at this moment in the coalfield is very considerable. When we go from the extractive to the primary processing part of the industry, we have to remember—
  Mr. Mitchison: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us if the cost of

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  dealing with opencast coal includes restoring the ground to agricultural use or not?
  Colonel Lancaster: If it included that cost, it would be a very small portion of the whole, something of the nature of 2s. or 3s. per ton. It would not invalidate the argument which I am putting, which is a comparison as between 5s. or 6s. and 50s.
  The next process is the production of the basic or foundry iron, and, again, this has not so far been questioned as being inefficiently undertaken. What we have at this moment to decide is whether nationalisation is going to bring about a more efficient product, because, whereas the test of the introduction of the previous Bill was one of production first and then cost and then quality, the test on this occasion must undoubtedly be quality, followed by price and then production. Unless we can get an assurance on this matter of quality, the Bill, from a practical point of view, falls to the ground.
  I know very little about steel works, but, so far as foundry work is concerned, unless the quality of pig iron is satisfactory, the further processes are impossible. Hon. Members will realise that the whole motive power of this country is based on foundry iron. Turbines, cylinder blocks, oil engines and farm tractors are all dependent on foundry iron, and that is based on quality. Unless we can be assured that the quality will be retained, we are taking a step from which there will be no recovery. The City of Birmingham alone has some 300 concerns taking over 1,000 tons of foundry iron a year, and they are entirely dependent on that material being of the right quality. Once the industry is nationalised, it will be able to turn in one direction only, and, if these people do not get satisfaction, they have no other recourse except through these consumers' councils which can only be of limited value.
  I was talking to one of the biggest iron makers in the country a week ago and he said: "Our trouble at present is that we have 3 per cent. additional ash in our coal, but, at least, we get the satisfaction of being able to write a letter to the National Coal Board. Although
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  the National Coal Board do nothing about it, we do get a reply." He went on to say that, once the industry was nationalised, they would not even bother to write a letter, because no one is going to risk unpopularity and take the trouble to do something to which they know there will be no effective or immediate response.
  That is one of the matters which worries me about this Bill. Hon. Members will find that a condition will be created in which, so far as the cast iron side of the industry is concerned, the whole of the consumers will be entirely at the mercy of this industry, which will be the only provider of their basic material. In that connection, I was by no means satisfied that a case had been made out for leaving the blast furnaces of the Ford Company out of the Bill. Where is the difference between their requirements in regard to cylinder blocks and those of any other motor manufacturer in this country? Where is the difference between the Ford Company wanting their own blast furnaces for their own purposes as suppliers for the end materials in their own business, and the requirements for end materials of other firms?
  On this question of quality and price, the Government will probably reply by asking why they should not obtain the same standard as that already obtaining and even improve upon it. We are taking over these companies and we will keep the good will which they have already. During the passage of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, I remember very well, during the Committee stage, hearing an assurance from the then Minister of Fuel and Power that all the managerial and administrative brains in the industry would be called upon to help. Then, two months after that, we found that 75 per cent. of the administrative executives of the original industry had, if they had not quitted the industry, not been invited to take part in the new organisation.
  After that, what sort of assurance are the present boards of directors going to have that they will remain there except on sufferance? They will be required, along with the managers and technicians. How can technicians and managers function without leadership from above? We can see that every day of our lives. Technicians, managers

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  and workmen respond to good leadership, and, if the industry is to be unified, as it will be by the passing of this Bill, it is idle to suppose that we shall have any guarantee that the conditions in the industry will approximate to the level at which they obtain at this moment.
  On the last occasion, we had the substitution of a hotch-potch of civil servants, barristers, soldiers and politicians thrust into the industry instead of men who were experienced and already knew their job. There is no sort of guarantee that the same sort of thing will not happen again. This is a matter to which hon. Members on both sides of the House must address themselves. We cannot get past on this occasion with platitudes and generalisations about steel barons, monopolies and matters of that sort. What we have to be certain of, before we decide this matter, is whether we are going to get the quality material and at the right price, and, until that case is proved, none of us, on either side of the House, has the right to risk this further experiment. We have seen what has happened elsewhere. It may be that, in due course, we shall see great improvements in the industries nationalised up to date, and I hope we do, but no one can honestly say that, at this moment, we have achieved that state. We have a long way to go in every one of these industries which has been taken over—coal mining, transport, gas and electricity. We have not solved the problem, and yet, at this moment, we are asked to take a further step, and in some ways a much more final step, than we have taken already.
  If we produce coal inefficiently, in the last resort, the country can obtain its power, though more expensively, and the wear and tear of plant will be greater. If we produce pig iron, steel, cast iron, foundry iron or what you will, inefficiently, we strike at the very roots of our export trade, and that will be something which we shall never recover. Until the Government prove to this House that they have a plan and that they know how to do these things, none of us, whatever our political ideology, is justified in taking this further step, and I for one, with such experience as I have of the industry, must say that I am not prepared to take that risk.
  8.0 p.m.
  Mr. Mitchison: The speech we have just heard from the hon. and gallant Member for Fylde (Colonel Lancaster) invites, and deserves, a fuller answer than I have time to give it, but I will make one or two observations, and those quite shortly. I feel certain that if the coalmines had not been nationalised, the production of coal would have gone down, and, industrially, that trouble throughout the coalfields would have resulted in stoppages which would have done far more damage to national interests than any less important change could possibly have done. I would remind right hon. and hon. Members opposite that the increase in the price of coal was the result of paying miners proper pay, at long last. They would have had to choose between cheap coal and underpaid miners, on the one hand, and reasonable pay and a reasonable price on the other. That choice would have been inevitable, whatever the form and whatever the structure of the industry.
  I suggest to the House that, in structure, this Bill is simple enough. There is no reason whatever that I can see—and certainly no reason that I have heard in the course of this three-day Debate—for supposing that there will be any interference with the ordinary technical and commercial management of the industry. Prices, as has already been pointed out repeatedly by both sides of the House, are already controlled. The development plan which was prepared by the industry itself is, so far as I know, and so far as we have been told, still proceeding. The actual day-to-day running of the large and the small steel works should, provided it is efficient, go on as before.
  I have much more confidence than have right hon. and hon. Members opposite in the efficiency of the managers and other technical men who have spent their lives in the industry. The simple fact—which we must take into account in these cases—is that these men are keen on their job, and will continue to do it well. If they had to depend on the leadership of some of the directors in this industry, as the hon. and gallant Member for Fylde suggested, I do not believe that we should have had the keenness or the efficiency which we now find among so many of them.

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  After all, what is the substance of the change? It is not that this works or that works is now being altered in its day-to-day running, but that the ownership of the industry is being altered, and that an industry which, as has been repeatedly admitted by hon. Members opposite, is already a monopoly, will become a public monopoly instead of being a monopoly at present under the effective control of the British Iron and Steel Federation. How can anybody suggest, for one moment, that a monopoly entailing so much power and so much responsibility to the public and the country should continue to rest in those few hands? It certainly cannot be done on the record of the past. I am not here to go into the matter in any detail, but when I say that those I represent in Corby are some of the people who worked near Glasgow and in the West of Scotland in the past, and who experienced those years of unemployment and underemployment, I think I have already shown the reason why they, at any rate, are so anxious that the final control of policy should be taken out of the hands of the few leaders of the industry who now have it.
  Let me put that question in another way. There has been considerable talk tonight about the proper capacity to plan for the industry. What is the history in that matter? It is that the industry itself, at the end of the last war, over-planned its capacity hopelessly. It then proceeded to allow works after works either to go into disuse, or actually to become shut down. It entirely failed to anticipate future demand, and it has been quite correctly said today, that now is the first time that this industry is working to its full capacity. They have never got the answer right before, and is there any more reason to suppose that they will get it right now? There is no such reason, because the answer, in the nature of the case, cannot be a certain answer and must be a matter to be estimated on much more than merely technical and industrial considerations. It involves the whole future policy of the Government; it involves the Government's future policy at home, and, what has been singularly neglected tonight, it involves the Government's future policy abroad.
  We have heard much about the requirements of this country, and quite rightly;
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  but a very important factor in planning the future capacity of the industry is exports. I, personally, would have criticised the estimate made by the Federation far more on that score than on the question of what output they anticipated for internal consumption. In any case, the decision to be made as to future capacity cannot, of course, be a fixed one. It must be made and altered from time to time—that is inevitable—with regard not only to the estimated demand but to another matter. The industry itself has always considered—and we have had it repeated from the benches opposite during this Debate—that the thing to do was to keep capacity, if possible, short of demand. The idea was to be certain, so far as one could, that all the works would be fully engaged. That is what they tried to do, and that is what has been said repeatedly from the benches opposite during the last three days.
  We take a different view. We take the view that it is better to have a little extra capacity, and to be sure that we can provide for the needs of the country, both at home and in its relations with other countries, and for developments in our own Dominions and Colonies. Essentially, that broad difference runs deep. The motive in the industry has necessarily been—I am not saying that these are narrow-minded men, or that they are lacking in public interest—to get profits out of the industry. The motive ought not to be the making of profits, but the supplying of the full quantity of steel required.
  I do not say that price is unimportant. Costs are obviously important, but the essential difficulty with this industry has always been not principally one of price or cost; it has been the continual difficulty of adjusting supply and demand, and of dealing with the present and prospective capacity of the industry itself. I know of no better illustration, and no more fundamental illustration, of the kind of change that this Bill will make. It is not intended to interfere with day-to-day management unless that management is incompetent. But the Bill must necessarily interfere with the long-term policy of the industry, above all on that essential question of capacity.
  I have given one illustration, and I should like to add one or two minor points. I am not an expert in iron and

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  steel, although, like other people, I have been over certain works. It strikes me that there are some matters in the industry which need attention, although I do not say that they can be attended to in a Bill of this sort. I mention them in the hope that they may have attention later. This is an industry which, like other major industries in this country, has its tied houses. We have them in Corby. It seems to me that in this industry, at any rate, it ought to be possible to get rid of those tied houses at an early date and hand them over to the local authorities. Again, in the past this industry has been responsible for rooting up and leaving rooted up roughly half of Northamptonshire. I hope that somehow or another that ground will be restored to agricultural use. At present it is a monument to what private enterprise has done in the county.
  I will mention one further point. I am, as I have said, no technician, but I cannot regard it as sense that throughout the week, particularly on Saturdays, a large amount of gas is blown out of the works chimneys of Corby and scattered to the winds without being used, and that it is so scattered as to be a menace to public health in that town. I mention those three matters as needing consideration at a later stage.
  We have been told that there ought to be a policy in the Bill. How can we put into a Bill a policy in the sense of detailed plans or anything like that? Obviously in the proper management of an industry there should be a plan, and, as no one would deny in the case of a private industry, it must be a flexible plan. It must continually be flexible. We are planning not in a fixed and static world but in a changing one. Take the case of supply and demand. Does any private industrialist for a moment fix ahead with absolute certainty what the capacity is going to be in such and such a time? He makes his plans as best he can. He alters them when he must, owing to changing circumstances. But to put a plan of that sort into an Act of Parliament would be an act of idiocy of which I can conceive no Legislature possibly capable.
  What we want in a Measure of this sort is to set up proper and flexible machinery. We want to give a broad outline of the purpose for which it is to
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  be used and of the methods of its functioning. We want to make ancillary provisions, such as are made in this Bill, for compensation to shareholders, for dealing with labour relations and matters of that sort in the future. That is quite right and proper. But to attempt to put anything more into it would be to take a step which no private industrialist would ever dream of taking in his own affairs, and which only a lunatic, bereft of foresight and any appreciation of what a changing world this is, would attempt for a moment to put into an Act of Parliament. To ask for a policy in a Bill of this sort is only to make the kind of party point that occurs to people when they can think of nothing better. Anyone who asks for it must know perfectly well that no policy, in the sense of an industrial policy, could possibly be put by any party or any Government into a Measure of this kind.
  This is a Bill for establishing proper machinery for stating the purpose for which it is to be used, and for matters incidental to that. It effects a change, and it is certainly a very large change, but fundamentally the important point is that it shifts the power to deal with something absolutely vital to the people of this country from the hands of a small limited number of people who have no moral right whatever to have it at present, into the hands of those who are, at least, responsible to this House and, through us, to the people of the country. For that reason, as a step towards a real industrial democracy, I hope that this Bill will receive its Second Reading tonight, and will be passed with the consensus of public opinion behind it.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: Coming to the end of a three days' Debate as we are, I would like to put to the House the salient facts, as I see them, which have emerged from the Debate, and to ask the Lord President of the Council if he will answer questions which have been put from this side over and over again and which as yet have not been answered.
  It seems to me that the salient fact is that the industry is doing very well at the moment. That has been agreed on all sides. It has also been agreed that it is playing a vital part in our economy, both internally and in our exports. What the Government have to do is to show

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  how nationalisation will do better than has been done so far, and in some way give us some indication of how that is going to be done. The most forceful argument that has been put forward by the other side is the one of public monopoly versus private monopoly, but the question which I would put to hon. Members opposite is whether they are quite certain that the steel industry at the moment is a private monopoly.
  I can give five very good examples of where competition comes in. First of all, take exports. Thirty per cent. of production of the steel industry, directly and indirectly, goes for export and it goes in competition with other industries. That is a definite point of competition which the Government will have to face. Secondly, there is competition in business. Some firms have increased their business up to 80 per cent., and they are competing the whole time to get business. Thirdly, there is competition in efficiency. The price which is fixed does not give profits to all. In point of fact, in the first quarter of 1947, 10 per cent. of the industry made a loss. All the time there is competition for efficiency. Fourthly, and possibly most important, there is competition in quality, and we in Sheffield know that above all things. People come to Sheffield because they can get high quality steels, irrespective of the price, and there is competition the whole time between firms to keep that quality high. Fifthly, there is competition in labour and skill.
  The public monopoly will do away with four out of those five points. It will do away with competition for business, in efficiency—one only has to see what has happened in the case of coal; the Coal Board have put up the price to cover their losses—competition in quality, and in labour. Those are the points to which I think the Government must give answers if they wish to make out that public monopoly is better than private industry under supervision. Private industry under supervision, under the present set-up, is definitely competitive.
  The next argument, as I understand it, is more of a political one in that hon. Members opposite, one after another, have gone back into the past. I want to ask how, in the minds of hon. Members opposite and particularly in the mind of the Lord President, nationalisation will
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  solve the problems which they themselves criticise? Take low production, for example. Between 1920 and 1934 the capacity of the industry on an average was 12 million tons a year. The average demand was only seven million tons a year, leaving a surplus of five million tons capacity over that period. Even between 1934 and 1938 there was an average excess of capacity of nearly two million tons.
  Does the Lord President really think that people working under a bureaucracy in a nationalised industry, when they see a 40 per cent. excess of capacity and the demand going down, are going to increase that capacity and take the risk of censure from the Government and the public? It is most unlikely from the evidence which we have had in the past that a nationalised industry faced with a 40 per cent. excess of capacity would go on increasing that capacity.
  The next point which the Lord President must answer is how nationalisation of steel will affect shortages of materials such as those which my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan) mentioned, of coking coal, bricks, gas and all those other matters. I cannot see that the nationalisation of steel will increase capacity if there are shortages of that kind in other quarters. The next point was unemployment. The point about unemployment before the war has been made, over and over again. How will the nationalisation of steel itself solve that problem? Let me recall the year 1931 when in Sheffield there was a great deal of unemployment under the Socialist Government and, as we have been told, in the whole industry to the extent of 40 per cent., due to a lack of demand in the world. How will nationalisation of steel affect that problem? Surely the whole question of full employment is on a much higher national level. The question of the Government putting money into capital business in time of slump, does not depend upon nationalisation of one industry or another.
  Are we to be told that the Government are only to subsidise national industries in time of slump? This is a very relevant point and I hope that the Lord President of the Council will deal with it. Unless the Government say that

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  through the nationalisation of steel they are going to subsidise the workers in industry in time of slump to the exclusion of other industries, I must say that I do not see the logic of their arguments. The third point made on the other side is that price manipulation has taken place in order to produce vast profits. The point has been made from this side that in point of fact in a decade £42 million were lost in the industry. My right hon. Friend has also given the figures of what the profits were during that decade.
  Of the present capital employed at present prices the average rate of profit is somewhere about 5 per cent. The only issue is that the Government will take that profit away from an industry which at the moment is supporting the Chancellor of the Exchequer by producing taxes. That will not help us in our recovery. The industry is going to be turned, like the coal industry, into one which will show a loss and be a drag on the Exchequer. There appears to have been no proper case made out by the other side to show how nationalisation will solve those problems. We have had merely a lot of statements and opinions.
  We have not yet been shown that the experiments which have been done in nationalisation have proved that the Government can do what they say they will do. The hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) described this Bill as a great experiment and perhaps the greatest experiment of all time. I am certain that the people of Sheffield, great numbers of whom not only work in, but are dependent upon, the industry, are not satisfied that the Government have proved that this is the time or the way that those people's livelihood should be experimented with. Until we have some better proof this House should give a decisive rejection to the Second Reading.
  8.23 p.m.
  Mr. Eden: We are now in the closing stages of this three-day Debate. I should like to begin my observations, since the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been courteous enough to be here, by making one preliminary observation about compensation. The right hon. and learned Gentleman dealt with that point last night, and deployed all his well-known legal skill to demolish,
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  as I thought, a case which we on this side of the House had never presented to him. So far as I am concerned, he proved conclusively his argument that Stock Exchange quotations are a fair measure of value of individual shareholdings transferred on a given day between a willing seller and a willing buyer. We have no dispute on that point.
  Our argument is that where an entire company is taken over as a going concern, then a whole lot of different considerations apply. When this point was made by the junior Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss), the Chancellor dismissed the argument as having no logic. Like him I have had enough dealings with some of our Continental friends to be sometimes distrustful of logic. However that may be, I think the Chancellor will admit that this argument has been consistently accepted by the courts in considering cases of this nature. I want to refer particularly to the words used by the Master of the Rolls in 1944 in a case concerned with the valuation of certain Stock Exchange assets of a certain company. He said:
  "Public market quotations are often related to quite small shareholdings, and isolated transactions are notoriously no guide to the value of investments of this character, particularly when the amounts involved are large."
  That is a very important part of our argument and the Chancellor did not say anything last night to rebut it. Perhaps the Lord President of the Council will have a chance to do so in collaboration with his right hon. and learned Friend.
  My main sentiment has been one of very considerable sympathy with the words of the General Secretary to the Iron and Steel Trades Federation in April:
  "This is going to be an issue at the next General Election."
  Remarkable speeches have been made by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House who are in close contact with the industry. I would single out—and I hope I shall not embarrass him—my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan), and on the other side of the House—and I hope I may say it without embarrassing them—the hon. Member for East Swansea (Mr.

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  Mort) and the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Marshall) yesterday. I should like at once to give one reassurance to the hon. Member for Brightside. He paid a tribute to the quality of the steelworkers in this country, and he used these words:
  "Those who think that nationalisation will make these sturdy steel men into slackers, men who will not pull their weight, have certainly got to think again."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 277.]
  Those were his words, and they were much in the tempo of what was said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. But nobody in this House does think it, or has even suggested it. Member after Member has paid tribute to the relations which have existed in the industry in the past, despite external problems which might very well have ruined all co-operation. The only discordant note came from the hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu). He told us that in his view the relations in the industry were worse than at any time in the last 20 years. I am surprised at the diagnosis. It is not borne out by anything I have ever heard said. I was interested to know what one of his constitutents said about his statement. I will read a quotation from the "Yorkshire Post." The chairman of the divisional Labour Party, Mr. Deece, said:
  "I am of the opinion that things are probably not all they might be in the industry, but I certainly would not say that the feeling is worse than 20 years ago. I do not believe that is true of this area, at any rate."
  Another even more delightful quotation in the "Yorkshire Post"—a very cautious, a very Yorkshire observation—was by the chairman of the local Iron and Steel Trades Confederation, a Mr. Lawman Welch, whom perhaps the hon. Gentleman knows. He said:
  "Mr. Mallalieu may have been referring to another area—probably South Wales—and not here."
  Very Yorkshire, that one. I hope the hon. Member for Brigg will read the observations of his own constituents. I am sorry that in this Debate he should have been the one hon. Member to state that relations in the industry were worse than at any time in the last 20 years.
  Another argument which has been used a good many times in this Debate is about the continuous working week,
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  the existence of which I should imagine we all agree is, in itself, a remarkable tribute to all engaged in the industry. We have been told in this Debate, for the first time, that agreement was reached on this only because of the prospect of nationalisation. Well, that may be so, but nothing of the kind has ever been said by any member of the industry. We have been told in this Debate—not by the hon. Member for Brigg; it has been argued from the other side—that agreement was reached because nationalisation was held out.
  I have to point out in reply that the General Secretary of the Union, in his reference to the continuous working week, gave four reasons for it—if I may say so, four very good reasons. They were, first, that it meant reducing the hours for preparatory workers who hitherto had worked in excess of 48 hours. Secondly, it was the first stage in the claim for a 42-hour week which, in the present economic crisis, was deferred. Thirdly, it was a desire to help the nation and the Government in the struggle for recovery by full utilisation of existing plant. I believe that is right. Fourthly, it was to bring our melting practice into line with that of every other major steel producing country. These were the arguments used by the General Secretary and I can only point out that the word "nationalisation" does not occur among them. I hope nobody else will say that the continuous working week worked only because the prospect of nationalisation was dangled before the industry. If we agree on that, we are always one step further forward.
  I will not deny, in reply to the hon. Gentleman the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, who spent much longer on this point yesterday, that the trade union leaders of the industry are in favour of nationalisation. Of course, they are. Equally, of course, many of the men in the industry—maybe the majority of the men in the industry—wholly loyal to their leaders, share their view. But I will add something else: there are others, and there is among many of them a considerable measure of doubt whether the transfer of ownership of the industry from free enterprise to the State is, of itself, going to result in greater prosperity for the industry.

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  There is another argument, and it is a very important argument, which I have no doubt has had its effect, not only in this Debate but outside in the country. The idea is—we have had it hinted at and, indeed, it has been mentioned tonight—that if the State owns an industry, then in bad times the industry will be carried along, and employment will continue, more effectively than under free enterprise. I think it is fair to say that that is the argument. But is this really true? Does the hon. Gentleman think it is true? In the long run, can the State afford to make losses any more than can private enterprise—this quite apart, of course, from the fact that the Bill forbids the Corporation to make any losses at all.
  Let us see what happens. Take the example of civil aviation today. It is not only a Government-owned organisation, but also a Government-built organisation. What is going on there? Because the nationalised Corporations are running at a loss, the Government have been compelled drastically to reduce the number of men they employ. I am not saying that is wrong. I am only drawing attention to the fact. It is described in the "Daily Herald." On 16th October, it was said in the "Daily Herald":
  "When the full cuts are in force, 10,000 employees are likely to be on the redundant list."
  That is in a Government controlled, owned and built organisation. Are the workers so sure that when the Govern-men are the sole owners and the sole court of appeal, their employment will be more assured than it would be under any other system? The truth is that Lord Keynes was very right when he demonstrated a long time ago that if the State is to counteract the adverse periods of slump, as we all want it to do, then the way to do that is not by the State's owning the industries, but by the State's trying to ensure that there is a demand for the products which those industries turn out. It was just that world fall in the demand for steel and other products that led to unemployment in the steel trade and other trades in the twenties and' thirties. Everybody knows that is true, and that a nationalised industry would have been affected by those world economic conditions just as the privately-
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  owned industries were. The demand was not there; that is all.
  Indeed, I must remind the House—and some hon. Members here will recall it—that when in 1923 we sought permission from the country to make use of tariffs—I know that hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway disagreed; but Mr. Baldwin, as he then was, went to the country to get those tariffs—so that we could maintain our trade on equal terms with that of other countries that were dumping steel in this country, none was more eloquent in denial of that than some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last night that the industry had enjoyed the protection of tariffs since 1932, he appeared to regard that as some particular favour for the industry. It is perfectly true that that happened in 1932, and that the industry at long last enjoyed a measure of protection which the industry of every other country had enjoyed before that. I do not think that was so much of a favour. It was certainly a necessity.
  I should like to tell the House what I believe to be the mood of the nation today on this subject of nationalisation. I submit this to the Lord President, who is acknowledged to be one who has his ear to the ground and knows all about public opinion. I think that the nation is saying something like this, "In this one Parliament we have seen a great many Measures of nationalisation—nationalisation of coal, transport, electricity, gas, Cable and Wireless, and so forth"—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Bank of England."] And of the Bank of England. I should have thought that even the most ardent advocate of nationalisation would have admitted that in respect of some of these industries, at any rate, the case for the success of nationalisation has not yet been fully established. I will not put it any higher than that. It is not necessary to put it any higher than that for the purpose of my argument. There has been anxiety—and I would say to the Lord President that there is anxiety—on many counts.
  I here quote—not myself, because the right hon. Gentleman may not think that very good evidence—but the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth), who said in the House on 2nd November, in a speech

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  to which I listened and which greatly impressed me:
  "On these benches"—
  that is, on the benches opposite—
  "we have got to admit a disappointment over one of our theories. The hon. Member for Hornsey spoke about the tragedy of a theory killed by a fact. Here is one. I am disappointed at the fact that what I have advocated on public platforms for the last 25 years, that if we nationalise an industry the people in that industry would work harder because they were working for the State than if they were working for a private employer, has not altogether worked out. I believed that, as did my hon. Friends on these Benches. I do not know what my hon. Friends feel about it now"—
  they got a bit restive I remember—
  "but I am very much disappointed that we have not had the results one would expect."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd November, 1948; Vol. 457, c. 754.]
  I would say to the right hon. Gentleman, in the light of that, which I think expresses the feeling of a good many people in the country, that the mood of the nation about nationalisation today is this: "For the moment we have had enough nationalisation. Let us see how the existing schemes work out. If they prove themselves, very well, then we are ready to consider and proceed to further measures of nationalisation, but, for the moment, we have had enough." I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that to proceed at the present time against this temper is forcibly to feed the nation on nationalisation, and this course, I am confident, the nation will resent and resist. I apologise for making these observations to the right hon. Gentleman because, knowing his political wisdom, I have some suspicion that he has already said something like that to his own colleagues. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us last night that:
  "The opposition to this Bill stems from two main sources—those who believe that private enterprise and free competition are essentially the best way of serving the national interest and those who resent bitterly this attack upon the citadel of the power of the property owners."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 16th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 325.]
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows very well that we have never argued on behalf of either of those classes, but I must tell the Government, since they do not seem to know, that opposition to this Bill stems also from a third class whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer never
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  mentioned—those who maintain that this Bill and the Government speeches have so far produced no argument to show that the Bill in any way improves on the present system of free enterprise and management, subject to public supervison and control. That is our case.
  Mr. David Jones: Why public supervision of private enterprise?
  Mr. Eden: Because it seems to work well in this case, and we are willing to accept it. Here is an industry which is producing at an all-time record level and at competitve prices. There is no dispute about that. It is an industry which has embarked on a scheme of modernisation approved by the Government. We know that the industry is efficient today. There is no particular dispute about that. But it has yet to be established by any speech from the Government Benches that when the ownership is transferred it will be as efficient as it is today, let alone more efficient. Not one single time has the efficiency argument been used. It is quite true that we are told that the old boards of management are to remain for a time, at any rate; that they are to be responsible not to the shareholders, but to Whitehall; but they will be hedged round with all sorts of restrictions set out in the Bill which, to put it mildly, are unlikely to inspire them to initiative or to take any risks.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us yesterday that there is need for foresight and planning. Of course there is, but our whole case against this Bill is that there is not one glimmer of it within its 88 pages. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) asked how could we expect to have a plan in a Bill. Perhaps it is a bit old-fashioned to expect a plan in a Government Bill, but if we cannot have a plan in the Bill, we should at least have an indication of some sort of plan in the speeches. So far there has not been a glimmer or a sign of that. Personally, I believe that no such plan exists.
  I have in mind the warning given by the then Minister of Fuel and Power in another connection—and the right hon. Gentleman must have heard that speech, because it was delivered at the Labour Party Conference. The then Minister of Fuel and Power was in reminiscent mood

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  about the coalmining industry, and he said:
  "Unhappily, while the Labour movement is quite properly focused on the fundamental ideals of Socialism, little attention has been paid to the extremely difficult, technical administrative problems which the carrying out of nationalisation involves. There has been, I regret to say, very little guidance on detail, and so we have had to improvise in the light of existing circumstances."
  Well, I know that speech got the right hon. Gentleman into trouble somewhere up above; but what troubles me about that speech is that, on the evidence of everything said by the Government spokesmen so far, there is no indication at all that their position in respect of iron and steel is in any respect further advanced than it was in respect of coal. And how disastrous it would be if the right hon. Gentleman's confession about coal were now to be repeated in respect of iron and steel. We are still without any indication that the Government have got any plan for the future of the iron and steel industry when it is transferred to the State.
  Now, the Chancellor of the Duchy, whom I am glad to see here, has been making one or two speeches lately. A few nights ago he spoke to the Fabian Society in London, and what he told them interested me very much, because I thought that there I could find the plan I was pursuing. He said that the national interest demanded that we should have an iron and steel industry more efficient, more up-to-date and larger than now, or than its present owners proposed that it should be.
  Does the Lord President endorse that? If so, how much larger? The industry, as was explained by my right hon. Friend this afternoon, has now planned—we understand in agreement with the Government—an expansion to 18 million tons in the early fifties. What is the expansion the Government have in mind in excess of that figure?—a figure agreed between the industry and the Government. There must be some further figure, or I am sure the Chancellor of the Duchy would not have said that we must do better still. What is that figure? Twenty million? Any advance on 20 million? Twenty-five million? I suppose there must be some figure. And I suppose that the Lord President will tell us what it is.
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  What about the development programme of the industry which the Government have approved? This afternoon we heard from the hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) a lot about finance. I do not think he need really worry about that finance. I will not go into the question of the loan which he mentioned; there were a good many other loans that were not a great success at that time, but they were all underwritten and they got the money. On the question of the development programme of the industry I would say that the Government have approved it, and that its finance is assured. I believe that over two-thirds of the scheme has actually been approved in detail.
  I want to ask the Lord President this: Do the Government maintain that this development plan, which has been approved by them in detail as to two-thirds of it at least, ought to be larger? Is that what the Chancellor of the Duchy meant? If so, in what respect ought it to be larger? Where are the material resources to come from to enable the industry to carry out this further expansion? We are entitled to know. Here is an agreed plan into the early fifties, and here are Minister saying "We must have a larger plan." Well, what is the larger plan which the Government want? Why is it that it cannot be carried out in the same way as the present one is carried out? Everybody knows that supplies of raw materials are the limiting factor.
  Some hon. Members have called in aid Mr. Lincoln Evans, the general secretary of the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation. At Margate in September of this year he made a speech—which right hon. Gentlemen opposite probably also remember—part of which I must read to the House, and particularly the Chancellor of the Duchy, who I know will want to agree with this. Mr. Lincoln Evans is no wicked Tory. This is what he said:
  "People talk about expanding capacity. It does remind me of the old saying—'Ignorance is not so much a question of not knowing anything; it is knowing too much.' If by some magical means we were able to increase the productive capacity of the industry to 20 million tons next year, can anyone guarantee we are going to supply the 8 million tons of extra coal that will be necessary? Unless you have the raw materials to maintain the capacity in existence, you are simply"—

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  I am sorry, Mr. Chancellor—
  "misleading the public by saying you can produce more steel. The essential question is not that of productive capacity, but the question of raw materials."
  Again, I ask the Government what is their plan, and what is the target of greater production they wish to reach? Have they ever suggested to the Steel Board that the development plan ought to be larger? The Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday that the present demand is very exceptional. I agree, but every exception carries with it its own dangers, which I need not emphasise, once the time of exceptional demand, which the Chancellor referred to, is past.
  I must say that perhaps the most unconvincing part of the whole of the Minister's speech was his reference to the Steel Board. At no time, so far as we know, when the Board was in existence, did we hear one word of criticism against it from any Minister. If the Government were not satisfied with the Board, or the results the Board produced, why did they not say so? But then, the Minister said, it was always meant to be a stop-gap. If, however, it is producing good results, and if the sole test, as the Lord President has told us, is to be results, surely the, life of the stop-gap might usefully be prolonged; its efforts might be encouraged, and even its terms of reference might perhaps be amended.
  Most ludicrous of all is the argument that it was the action of the steel masters that brought the life of the Steel Board to an end. It was the Government's own action in proceeding with nationalisation that killed the Steel Board. Let the right hon. Gentleman look at their terms of reference and he will see that it was not only the steel masters, who resigned, but the chairman and all the other members, except the trade unionists. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Naturally—they were pledged to nationalisation. Then what about Sir Alan Barlow, a very distinguished Treasury official? Are we going to be told that he was a wicked industrialist in disguise during all the years he has been in the Treasury?
  The only criticism of the Board which the Minister of Supply has ever made was in his speech on Monday. I want to quote what he said. I think it is fair criticism. He said:
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  "Any proposals put up to us by the industry can be vetoed, neither the Board nor the Minister has effective power to ensure that other proposals, however desirable they may be, will be initiated, let alone carried out, if the directors of the individual concerns do not like them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 56.]
  That is the only reason the Minister adduced, in his speech on Monday, against continuing a system of public supervision of a privately-owned industry, yet that system has worked pretty well over the last two years. It has not been perfect and could be improved, but under this system we have had a record output to which everyone has paid tribute, and under the system two-thirds of the development plan has received approval of the Government acting through the Board. We feel that the Government ought to produce strong, convincing reasons, apart from ideological reasons, if they are to justify their action in breaking up this system and their insistence on replacing it by a State monopoly. Yet the only argument we have had so far is this one which will not bear a moment's examination.
  I have searched the Bill—and I ask the Lord President to correct me if I am wrong—and can find nowhere any powers given to the Minister whereby he can order the Corporation to undertake a specific project. The Minister said on Monday that no controller had any authority to compel shareholders to spend money which he considered it necessary to spend. All right, but what powers has the Minister in the Bill to compel the Corporation to spend money on what they consider to be an unwise project? The Corporation are bound by Clause 29 to pay their way. Has the Minister any right to override that? I cannot find it anywhere in the Bill.
  What it means is this: if the Minister cannot give specific directions, he must rely on co-operation from the Corporation. The Minister has received cooperation—of which no complaint has been made by anyone—from the Steel Board in the last two years. What justification has he for expecting to receive fuller co-operation than that which he already has had from the industry? I challenge the Minister, or the Lord President, to tell us of any project which the Government have commended to the industry in the last two years, while the Steel Board has been in existence, which the industry has refused to carry out. The

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  truth is, as we believe, that so far from planning and advocating projects, the Government have been unable to make any contribution at all to the broader economic aspects of steel policy.
  Our case is this: an evolution in the use of the Steel Board and, if necessary, some amendment, in agreement, of the powers of the Board would be a far better method of ensuring what the Government seek and of maintaining the prosperity of the industry than the abrupt transfer of ownership for which the Bill provides. I must say, in passing, that I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer's references last night to strategy were particularly convincing. The right hon. and learned Gentleman drew a parallel between control of the naval dockyards and ownership of our steel-making resources in relation to national defence. If that parallel has any meaning at all, it would presumably apply to a firm like Vickers, whose armaments activities are not nationalised at all.
  As for the ability of the industry to fulfil the orders required of it, during the inter-war years it never failed the Government of the day, so far as I know, in discharging any programme that was put to it. Nor does it lie with hon. Members opposite to suggest that the programme put to the industry ought to have been larger, since they consistently voted against whatever programme there was. The programme is the responsibility of the Government, and the discharge of the programme is the responsibility of the industry. I repeat that in my experience I have never known the industry fail to fulfil the programme put to it.
  One of the arguments constantly used in this Debate is that the industry must be nationalised because it is of the utmost importance to our national economy. I should have thought that its very importance makes it all the more necessary that the decision tonight should be taken on grounds of economic efficiency, and not on the purely ideological grounds that Ministers have so far advanced. The fact is that if steel is vital to our economy, or to the defence of the country, then so are a great many other industries—the chemical industry—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear. hear."]—that cheer from the benches opposite is what I hoped for—the machine tool industry, the agricultural
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  industry—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Yes, it seems that they all ought to be nationalised, according to hon. Members opposite. So hon. Gentlemen opposite agree with me. Right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite do not seem quite so agreeable. Hon. Gentlemen and I agree that if this argument applies to steel it applies to the industries I have mentioned, and to a great many others, too. In logic—an expression of the Chancellor's—it does. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite still agree with me. We are getting to agree on almost too much—apart from the Front Bench. We are agreed that this will lead to wholesale nationalisation and to the steady reduction to a negligible proportion of the remaining free sections of our national economy. The Minister of Health agrees. I thought he might. The agreement is reaching the Front Bench now.
  Having listened to this Debate, I would say that so far there does not seem to be any agreement on the Government Benches as to the underlying motives behind this proposal to transfer the ownership of the industry. The Minister of Supply wound up his defence of the Measure by pointing to its overwhelming merits and claiming that this great reform removes from the private to the public sector of our economy an industry which is the citadel of capitalism. The Chancellor of the Exchequer took very much the same line in rather more austere language. That is definitely their justification; but is it the justification of the Lord President of the Council also? He used entirely different language two years ago, and the arguments which he used then seemed to me a much more acceptable basis for discussion between us. The right hon. Gentleman said that this was not in essence an issue of party politics at all. He said that it was in essence a matter of business, namely, what was the best course to take in the interests of the community for the handling of this great basic industry? Here is what he said:
  "…although political theory and party politics are bound to flit across the Chamber"—
  certainly they have done that in the last few days and they have bumped against each other once or twice, too—
  "and we all enjoy that on all sides, it is really not a party political matter. It is a matter

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  of business, and national business at that"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th May, 1946; Vol. 423, c. 1106.]
  I think that is the right test to take, because the nation is going to approve those who are least doctrinaire in their approach to the future of this great industry. The nation wants results and it will judge by them. The results today are very good, and it is for the Government to show that the results following upon the transfer of ownership are going to be better than are the results today.
  Is the right hon. Gentleman's position still the same as in 1946? If it is, I hope he will give us some practical reason why he thinks that this industry will be more efficient and will better serve the nation than it does at the present time once the ownership has been transferred. We have not yet been flattered by one such argument. We have had no indication of the plan which the Government intend to put into effect. Over and over again we have had arguments put forward about how important it is to capture this citadel. I have listened to this Debate and I am driven to this conclusion, that the Government's sole purpose is, by means of this Bill—and the cheers by hon. Members opposite support the view—to bring free enterprise in industry in this country to an end. The Bill gives the State a wide interest in all sorts of activities beyond the primary processes of steel making and steel rolling. The State is going to enter as a competitor into a wide range of engineering, machine tool manufacturing, chemicals, and other activities.
  Does anyone in this House really expect that a duality of that kind will last very long? One of two things will happen. Either the Government will become weary of operating these varying activities which they can neither understand nor control, or step by step they will seek to nationalise all those industries in which this Bill gives them some share. If this last is really the Government's purpose, as I believe it is, the voter at the next General Election will have to decide not merely on a change of ownership in the steel industry, but at the same time on a change of ownership in the engineering, machine tool and a whole score of other industries. I will quote the words of the "Manchester Guardian" last Tuesday, which seem to me succinctly to describe the position:
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  "That this is the natural outcome of the Steel Bill is now becoming convincingly clear. There is no point after this at which the advance towards the extinction of private enterprise in British industry could be halted."
  That is the position. That did not get quite as many cheers from the other side as I should have hoped. As I listened to the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night, it seemed to me that his view of democracy, as he expressed it then, was indeed a very strange one. It seemed to amount to this, "I am a constitutionalist if the country agrees with me; if not, I am still a revolutionary."
  Sir S. Cripps Sir S. Cripps indicated dissent.
  Mr. Eden: All right, the right hon. and learned Gentleman shakes his head. I will now ask the Lord President a question in order that we may elucidate this point. At the last General Election admittedly iron and steel figured in the programme, the Socialist catalogue, among many other things. At the next General Election, unhappily perhaps, iron and steel is bound to be a major, if not the major, issue. Supposing that at the General Election our party receives a clear majority from the nation, would the right hon. Gentleman then accept that we have the full right not only in the strict letter of the Constitution but in its spirit also as a free democracy, to repeal the legislation which the Government are tonight asking us to pass, or would he regard that as a provocative act justifying revolutionary action?
  We are at the concluding stage of this three-day Debate. So far, no single argument has been produced on the grounds of efficiency to show that under this Bill this essential industry will operate more successfully or at a lower cost or with better industrial relations than exist today. At a critical time, when we still depend for our life on foreign help, when we are daily consuming our accumulated foreign assets, the result of the thrift of our ancestors, or, if hon. Gentlemen prefer, the result of the wicked capitalist instincts of our ancestors—[Interruption.] They are very glad to consume them all the same. How long have we been eating the Argentine railways? At such a time, I say, the Government are deliberately taking a gamble with the future efficiency of this industry whose recent record is one in which all sections of this House

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  take pride. In our judgment it is a gamble which no Government would be justified in taking. There was never a case where the onus of proof for change of ownership lay more clearly with the Government that demands that change. There was never one where less evidence has been adduced of any advantage to the nation in such a change. So, therefore, we ask the House to oppose this wanton and foolish step and to reject the Bill which embodies it.
  9.11 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): This has been a notable three-day Debate on the Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill. I think that the level of the Debate has been good, that we have all learned something from each other, as the discussion has proceeded, and that the three days have been well spent. I, of course, recognised it as inevitable that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) would assert—as is asserted on every occasion not only by the Opposition Front Bench, but particularly by Conservative newspapers—that the Government have made no case. That is common form. It would be extraordinary if they did not make these empty allegations every time a controversial Measure comes before this House. Time after time we have made our case. Time after time we have engaged in the tragically easy task of proving the Opposition wrong.
  It has almost ceased to be interesting to prove the Opposition wrong, but, Sir, that does not matter. Every time issues come before the House, or before the newspapers of the Conservative variety, always they assert, whatever arguments may have been advanced, that no case has been made. That is partly sheer political prejudice and partly because the Conservative Party is incapable of understanding a case which is argued in the public interest. [HON. MEMBERS: "Argue it then."] I will indeed. What they can always understand, almost before the case is made, is an argument in favour of private interests. That, Sir, is instinctive.
  Any fair-minded person who heard or read the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply in moving the Second Reading of the Bill—whether they agreed with him or not—ought to agree
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  that he directed his arguments carefully and constructively in establishing a positive case for this Bill. My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary who, as the right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan) said, has a great personal knowledge of the industry and who worked in it until three and a half years ago, gave us out of the richness of his experience the case for the Bill, as he saw it. My right hon. and learned Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, made a speech of such outstanding positive merit and so completely devastated the arguments of the Opposition that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition could not stay in his seat for five minutes on end. The Leader of the Opposition, who is bad at giving way himself, caused my right hon. and learned Friend to give way time after time. There were indeed some sustained interruptions at the end which have caused the Opposition, either wilfully or, otherwise, totally to misunderstand the peroration of my right hon. and learned Friend.
  As the right hon. Gentleman has just said, we have had many good speeches from hon. Members on both sides, and I thought that the outstanding speech—easily the outstanding speech—of the Opposition, as it was on the occasion of the previous Debate, was the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for the City of London. It was a speech worth hearing and worthy of the most careful study, whether we agree with it or not. [Laughter.] I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite who are politicians, which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London primarily is not—I hope Tory politicians opposite will not be too jealous when I make friendly references to the right hon. Gentleman. His was a great contribution to this Debate, and I was glad that the right hon. Gentleman was followed by my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay), who made a contribution of constructive ability and great force which much impressed the House.
  We finished up in somewhat lively circumstances last night, but not quite so bad as the "Daily Mail" has made out. The "Daily Mail" headline says—I am sorry if the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) gets pained when I mention the

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  "Daily Mail." I thought he liked the "Daily Mail," but, directly I mentioned it, he groaned. There is a lot to be said for it. I think the headline was typically-misleading and typically inaccurate when it said "Cripps Howled Down." I did not know that my right hon. and learned Friend was howled down last night, even though he did have some interruption, and indeed—
  Brigadier Thorp: Saved by the bell.
  Mr. Morrison: Most of us who speak last from this Box in a Debate expect a certain mood and atmosphere and certain noises from hon. Members opposite on these occasions.
  The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down asked me a very elementary question, to which I will give him a very elementary reply. It was that, if, unhappily—he did not say "unhappily," but I say it—the Conservatives won the next General Election, and, if in the course of their Election Manifesto, they sought a mandate for the repeal of this Bill, would the Labour Party say it was constitutionally wrong to repeal the Act of Parliament based upon this Bill. My answer is that, constitutionally, it would clearly be perfectly legitimate for that to be done. We are not a party which says that, if the electors have voted for a course of policy, the House of Lords should throw it out.
  If the electorate did, unhappily, vote for a Tory majority next time, the electorate must take the consequence of its action. But if they claim the right to repeal, then I say—and I want the leaders of the party opposite to understand this, and another place to understand it—if they get an electoral mandate to repeal this Measure, then we also have the right now to carry this Measure for which we have a specific electoral mandate. The Tory Party in this House has no right to use another place for the purpose, and the deliberate purpose, of upsetting the expressed will of the people. That is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman. That seems to me to be elementary and sound Parliamentary democracy, to which, I assure him, we can live up, and I invite him and his hon. Friends to live up to it also. Of course, we should, I suppose, have a right to oppose the repeal.
  Mr. Churchill: By revolution.
  Mr. Morrison: We should have the right to argue and vote against the Bill just as the Opposition tonight and during these three days have the perfectly legitimate right to argue against the Bill, and to vote against it. I hope that this respectable constitutional doctrine comforts the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies)—I extend to him my regret and sympathy—has been completely tied up on two separate occasions in regard to this Measure. If I may say so, I tied him up in the Debate on the Address, where I had more than one authoritative quotation from Liberal quarters as to why the Liberal Party had, in principle, declared for this Measure and for this policy. My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Horabin) made a specific quotation from a document specifically signed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself in favour of the policy upon which this Bill is based. It could, indeed, hardly have been more specific as a justification for the Bill of my right hon. Friend.
  I do not wish to be bitter about the difficulties of the Liberal Party. I know they are opposed to us in certain respects, and are opposed to the Conservatives in certain respects. Their difficulty is to say of what they are in favour. But I really think it is going a bit far, when these specific commitments have been entered into by the right hon. and learned Gentleman and he comes here and switches clean round and abandons his electoral mandate, and acts in defiance of it. It is a great pity. Liberal Members will, of course, do what they wish tonight, but if they go into the Lobby with the Conservatives, if they make a combination with the Conservatives on this Bill, they are acting in defiance of the principles which they advocated at the Election and to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman—
  Mr. Frank Byers: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there was no reference to iron and steel in the Liberal Manifesto upon which the Election was fought?
  Mr. Morrison: I invite the hon. Gentleman to read the speech I made at the conclusion of the Debate on the Address,

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  and I invite him to read the speech made by my hon. Friend yesterday. It is, of course, competent for the Chief Whip to repudiate his leader, as the hon. Member has just done. It is competent for him, but I think it is a bit uncomfortable when Whips do that sort of thing. The commitments in principle are all too real, and I would only say to our Liberal friends—I am not one of their bitter or intolerant critics, as they know—that if they go on retreating in this way and get led astray by the Tory Party, when it comes to the issue of whether they are going to vote for Liberal principles or not, Liberalism in Parliament has an even dimmer future than it seems to have at present.
  It has been argued that all has been well and is well with the iron and steel industry. I agree in principle with the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan) that the future of the industry and what we are going to do with it are more important than having arguments about the past. I only want to read two quotations—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Well, hon. Members opposite have got to take it. Those quotations are from quarters that are opposed to this Bill, and I want to read them in order to show that in their judgment all was not well with the iron and steel industry between the wars. Having read those two quotations, I will leave it at that, because I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we must now proceed to argue out what is the wisest thing to do with the industry for the future.
  The first quotation is from the present editor of the "Economist," who has often been quoted in this House by the Conservative Party since the Election, just as he was often quoted before the Election by us. In his observations in "Economics for Democrats," published in 1939, Mr. Crowther, for whose ability I have a high regard, said:
  "The result of Conservative steel policy has been to confer enormous advantages on the businessmen of the industry. They have been granted a monopoly and assured of its exclusivity and permanence; and they have been encouraged to use it to raise prices for their product. The policy has beyond question put large profits into the pockets of steel shareholders. And it is equally beyond question that some at least of these profits have come out of the pockets of the consumers of steel—who include, directly or indirectly, almost every
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  inhabitant of the island. But the return that the community has received for this assistance could hardly be detected with a microscope."
  That was what he said about the years between the wars.
  Mr. Nigel Birch: What did he say about the Bill?
  Mr. Morrison: The hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch), has just wakened up. I said before I quoted this observation that Mr. Crowther was opposed to the Bill. As a matter of fact, that had something to do with my making the quotations from that source. "The Times" is also opposed to the Bill. Let me make that clear.
  Mr. Birch: And the "Manchester Guardian."
  Mr. H. Morrison: Yes, and the "News Chronicle" and the Parliamentary Liberal Party. The industrial correspondent of "The Times" on 25th October, 1948, said:
  "It would be easy to draw the conclusion that the difficulties confronting British steel makers were all unavoidable and due to circumstances."
  He went on to say:
  "It can be argued that dear fuel in Europe and dear labour in America forced the pace of technical advance, but the same technical advances would have been economically and technically advantageous here, and it was a bad tradition which impeded them. There was a lack of the right kind of knowledge, so that in introducing changes this country followed others 'after the cream had been skimmed.' There was some lack of the right kind of leadership, in part because of the way in which son followed father at the top. There was a relative neglect of technical education in this country which served as a contributory drawback—though fortunately this country continued to take a leading part in making special steels for new purposes."
  Those are two quotations from quarters which are opposed to the Bill and they are relevant to our discussion. Having quoted them, I now leave that aspect of the case.
  The Opposition attitude to the Bill is a difficult one and, of course, they themselves are in a great dilemma. What they should be saying to and about the iron and steel industry is, "Set the people free." They should be the advocates of free competition in this industry,. of letting the industry go ahead in its own way and, particularly, of letting its indi-

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  vidual firms compete against each other in the freest possible manner. That is classical Conservative doctrine. It is also certainly classical Liberal doctrine. But what do they say? They do not advocate private enterprise in this industry; they have demonstrated that they are opposed to private enterprise in this industry. They are not advocating free competition between the units of the industry. It was therefore quite appropriate that the rejection of this Bill should be moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), who knows about these activities in another sphere.
  The truth is that the people who led the retreat from private enterprise were the private enterprisers of the Conservative Party themselves—and this is where they have got to. They are upholding the monopolistic or cartel nature of the industry, as it has evolved. I am not criticising that as far as the industry is concerned; I understand its motives and I understand its difficulties. But the fact is that the industry has become a near monopoly, a near cartel, and the Conservative Party, the advocates of private enterprise, the urgers of free competition, say that is all right. As advocates of the abandonment of controls to the greatest practicable extent—they are a little bit uncertain what that extent is—they first accept the end of private enterprise in the industry, yet superimpose on that acceptance, the argument, "You can get all you want by imposing control on the iron and steel industry." They are not advocating traditional capitalist enterprise. What they are advocating is the acceptance of the near monopoly and the near cartel—through the instrument of the British Iron and Steel Federation—and are prepared to superimpose on that control a further control by the politicians which they are denouncing every day of the week outside the House.
  This is the utterly absurd and ridiculous position into which the Conservative Party have got themselves. So they finish by advocating the very policy which they sometimes, wrongly, believe is our policy, and they embrace that policy whilst on other occasions criticising us for it. It seems to me, therefore, that Toryism has ceased to be the party of true private
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  enterprise and has become the Party of monopolistic cartel capitalism.
  They also talk a lot about Communism. The Leader of the Tory Party was trying to make out last night that there was nothing to choose between the objectives of the Labour Party and of the Communists, even though we are opposed to them. But what is this State supervised, cartelised, monopolistic capitalism if it is not the very Nazi economic system? It is also similar to the so-called and miscalled system of corporations of Mussolini, about which he theorised a great deal but did not do much. So the Leader of the Liberal Party sat at the feet of Dr. Balogh—though he subsequently went away from them—and the Tories are sitting at the feet of Dr. Schacht. I think, my hon. Friends think and the Government think that we shall not get the best out of the system of private enterprise if it takes the form of the private monopoly, the private near-cartel with supervision by the Iron and Steel Federation, which is the instrument of the industry itself, and has a good deal of independence in its day-to-day working, and, on top of all, the most meticulous control by my right hon. Friend, of all people. If we are to have private enterprise, for heaven's sake let us have it, and let it be enterprising and let it go ahead. But so-called private enterprise which is subject to all these checks and balances and controls will not give us the best system.
  Mr. Eden: It is doing it now.
  Mr. MorrisonThe right hon. Gentleman says it is doing it now. Why does he pick the iron and steel industry as being wholly fitted to be controlled by what is alleged to be bureaucratic State legislation and control? Why does the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London deserve to be picked out for all this meticulous control and legislation? The Tories denounce it elsewhere. They defend it here. They defend it here because they see it as the last defence they can make for and in favour of private monopoly in this industry—that is their only motive.
  At one time this was an industry of private enterprise. Then, because of the encouraging and stimulating activity of Conservative Governments, the Confederation was formed; and it has done

  489
  the work of which we know. I am not by any means saying that all the work of the British Iron and Steel Federation has been bad and wrong. It has done some good things. It has discharged some useful functions. However, the more I listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, and the more he showed how the industry had evolved from competition to the period when the tariff was secured, and when the Conservative Government insisted, as the price of the tariff, that the industry should be reorganised, that the Federation should be established to control the individual units as best it could, and how that control had further developed into control by the Ministry of Supply—and I understood his case, and he stated it, as we all know, with great ability—the more I listened to his speech, the more I thought the right hon. Gentleman was really tracing a state of evolution which would, reasonably and logically, lead to this Bill as the next stage in its evolution.
  We cannot go on for all time with the Conservative idea of large-scale, big self-governing economic units, economic Empires within the State, albeit subject to public supervision. That is not a doctrine which is going to be permanently acceptable to the British people. When we get to that point, it is far better that we should take the logical next step and take over the industry. [Interruption.] The Leader of the Opposition cannot talk about not mentioning the Bill. As a matter of fact, not being able to discuss this Bill in detail in the Debate on the Address, he got his revenge yesterday by devoting a third of his speech to the Debate on the Address.
  Mr. Churchill: I am sorry if I interrupted the right hon. Gentleman, but we were getting a little concerned to know how we would fill in the rest of the time and whether arrangements would be made from our side, and, therefore, I reassured my hon. Friend the Chief Opposition Whip with the fact that the right hon. Gentleman had not yet reached the subject of the Bill.
  Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman, of course, is not very familiar with the Bill, otherwise he would know that
  490
  I have been talking about the subject of the Bill for quite a time.
  We make these claims: that there are disadvantages in the Opposition's line; that the doctrine to which I have referred cramps the style of management and impedes its freedom of action. It is impeded in its freedom both by the Federation and the State. We think that under that system it is more difficult to rationalise and modernise the industry, since if it is a question of expanding here or contracting there, the fact of the industry being in private hands is bound to cause the maximum of difficulty. Next, we think that it is difficult for the industry to achieve the necessary freedom of movement in reorganisation and to change the physical characteristics of many of its undertakings, when there are a large number of separately owned undertakings, even if they are not a cartel. The separate bodies of shareholders are an added difficulty. Of course, there is also the political difficulty in a private monopoly of expanding or contracting the industry in particular areas. Moreover, in the raising of capital—and the industry must raise very large sums of capital—it cannot raise capital as well as it can be raised under State guarantee, either in speed, or in amount, or in the rate of interest which has to be paid. Therefore, we think that also is a disadvantage.
  The proposals that we submit to the House meet these difficulties, and I will tell the House why. It is, of course, a complex industry, as we all understand, and it is the most controversial of the socialisation—[Interruption.] This is the old game of the gentlemanly party. They will get it back one of these days. We are quite used to it. This is, we quite agree, a complex industry; and this is the most controversial of all the socialisation Measures. But, in our submission to the House, this Bill is the best way of dealing with the problems of the industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] That is what I am about to tell the House.
  It is thought that if the shareholdings of the various classes of the individual undertakings pass from the present shareholders to the public corporation, which is to be set up under the Bill, then the management can get freedom of enterprise, freedom of adapta-

  491
  tion, and freedom to develop and modify the physical assets of the industry to a far greater extent than is now possible.
  I thought the right hon. Member for the City of London was arguing both ways. He complained that we were taking over too much in some respects; but he also appeared to complain that we were taking over only 107 undertakings instead of 2,000. I thought that was a little inconsistent. Surely the right thing to do is to take over the undertakings as they are within the appropriate sphere, and then afterwards see what, if anything, is superfluous, and what is not. It is perfectly true that in many of these private undertakings there are associated with them, or with part of them, as ancillaries a number of undertakings, which sound strange in relation to the iron and steel industry. But if they sound strange, why did they not sound strange when they were under private ownership? Why should they suddenly be strange, if they are taken over by the State? The alternative would have been to cut off or dislocate them before they were taken over, or provide in the Bill that on a specific date, parts of those undertakings should be severed. But that would have created the very dislocation, the very confusion and the very muddle which have been urged against this Bill and the policy that we are pursuing.
  It is, surely, the rational, the sensible and the wise course for us to take over the undertakings and their subsidiaries within the appropriate sphere and for the Corporation to examine them when they are in public ownership. If it is expedient to continue the subsidiaries in the hands of the Corporation, they can be continued; otherwise they can conveniently be shed in due course. That seems to me to be a far more sensible plan than trying to cut them off in some arbitrary way on the coming into operation of the Bill. That is the policy which we have pursued, and that is the answer to that point. We, therefore, think that that was the right thing to do, and I submit to the House that it is a perfectly reasonable course.
  It is next argued that we ought to have embodied in the Bill specific and detailed plans for the future organisation of the industry. This seems to me to be
  492
  a preposterous suggestion. It comes from the academic mind of the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington. It really is a preposterous suggestion that before the industry has been socialised, before the Act of Parliament has been brought in, and before any powers have been obtained at all, my right hon. Friend, a politician, should work out in detail the specific technical future of the industry, down to considerable detail, embody it in the Bill, and thereby deprive the scheme of all fluidity.
  That is the clear implication of the complaints which have been made that the future technical development of the industry is not laid down in fixed statutory terms in the Bill. It really does illustrate the lack of practical minds of Members opposite and the unreal world in which they live. Surely the wise thing, if the industry is to be socialised, is to provide for it to be taken over, to let the shares be vested in the Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain, and then to let the Iron and Steel Corporation, composed of competent business people—[Laughter.] What is the matter with the Opposition? Whom do they want to man the industry? As I was saying—composed of competent business people, be responsible for the management of the industry, subject to such general directions as the Minister of Supply may give them. That is surely the sensible and rational way in which to proceed on this matter.
  Mr. Henry Strauss: And raise the price of steel.
  Mr. Morrison: That allegation is a little premature—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and a little late, because prices have already been increased. The advantages of that line of policy are, I submit to the House, reasonable and sensible. Having given effect to that policy we shall have greater freedom to modify and develop the industry in the public interest. I would also add that this Bill in that sense and in that realm is not only a Bill for the transfer of the ownership from private ownership to public, but is also a Bill which will not only give greater dignity and freedom to the workpeople in the industry, but will represent an act of

  493
  emancipation and a charter of advance for management and technicians as well.
  We shall not discourage competition. There will be plenty of room both for competition and emulation between the separate undertakings of the industry. The facts about each undertaking, and its costs, will be known to the others, and we shall encourage every degree of proper competition. The Bill does not dislocate the industry at all. It is carefully framed so that there is no real disturbance, no dislocation, and the industry can be improved and reorganised without any violent upset in any sense of the term.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London was in error when he claimed that the Iron and Steel Board had the power to review and to produce plans for the industry. The Board's functions were to review and supervise plans of development, but they had no specific authority to produce plans of their own. Indeed, one of the difficulties of the Ministry of Supply has been that the Board could only check up on the schemes put to it by the Iron and Steel Federation. The technical experts were in Steel House, and in control of the industry, and what inevitably happened was that the Ministry of Supply Iron and Steel Board was, to a great extent—and I am not complaining, except that I think it was wrong—dependent for technical guidance not on the officers of the Ministry but on the very able staff of the British Iron and Steel Federation. I do not think that is an unfair statement.
  Sir A. Duncan: I think it is a little unfair in this sense: that the consultants were independent consultants. It is true that they were consultants to the Iron and Steel Federation, but, equally, they were independent consultants to the Ministry of Supply and the Steel Board.
  Mr. Morrison: I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the real information, the technical knowledge about the day-to-day affairs of the industry, was within the Federation rather than the Iron and Steel Board. That was bound to be so in the circumstances. That will rejoice the hearts of Members opposite, because they do not wish State Departments to be as expert as private enterprise. One of the incidental consequences of the passing of this Bill will be that
  494
  this expert technical knowledge will be at the disposal of public authorities, and will not be retained in private hands.
  In conclusion, I wish to refer to the criticism made of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer because of what he said last night about the danger of Communism and revolution—
  Mr. Churchill: And violence.
  Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman heard the word "violence," and violently went off the deep end himself. The Chancellor's argument—and the right hon. Gentleman opposite would have understood it better if he had not interrupted so much—was that with a Government which is progressive, which is understanding of the difficulties of the people, which seeks to protect and promote the standard of life of the people, and which frames its economic policy in the public interest, there is the best guarantee of social and economic stability. But with a Government and State which is reactionary, which is contrary to the popular interest, which is against the interests of the people, there is the risk of violent disturbance. I am confirmed in that belief by the fact that the Conservative Party are trying to work up a Communist menace for their own advantages. They had better leave that problem to us, because we understand it.
  Secondly, it is also not without significance that the policy of the Communist Party itself in Europe, starting with Hitler in Germany and going on to the present situation in France and to the recent election in America, is to welcome the political triumph of the Conservative Party plus the Fascist parties as well, because it is their belief—
  Mr. Birch: What about the Chancellor and his united front?
  Mr. Morrison: —that Toryism, which has no understanding of the people and represents reaction against the people, is most likely to stimulate Communist revolution and Communist violence.
  Question put, "That 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 373; Noes, 211.

  Division No. 4.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Diamond, J

  Jeger, G (Winchester)

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Dobbie, W.

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.)

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Dodds, N. N

  Jenkins, R. H

  Atbu, A. H.

  Donovan, T.

  John, W

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Johnston, Douglas

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Dumpleton, C. W.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Alpass, J. H.

  Dye, S.

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Edelman, M.

  Keenan, W.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Kenyon, C

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

  King, E. M.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

  Ayles, W. H

  Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

  Kinley, J

  Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Kirby, B. V

  Bacon, Miss A

  Evans, John (Ogmore)

  Kirkwood, Rt. Hon D

  Baird, J.

  Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

  Lang, G.

  Balfour, A

  Ewart, R.

  Lavers, S.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

  Fairhurst, F

  Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

  Barstow, P. G

  Farthing, W. J

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Bartlett, V

  Fernyhough, E

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Barton, C

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Leonard, W.

  Battley, J. R.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Leslie, J. R.

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Follick, M.

  Lever, N. H.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

  Foot, M. M.

  Levy, B. W.

  Benson, G.

  Forman, J. C

  Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

  Berry. H.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Lewis, J. (Bolton)

  Beswick, F.

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Binns, J.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

  Blackburn, A. R.

  Gallacher, W.

  Logan, D. G

  Blyton, W. R.

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S

  Longden, F.

  Boardman, H.

  Gibbins, J.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Gibson, C. W

  McAdam, W

  Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

  Gilzean, A.

  McAllister, G.

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  McEntee, V. La T

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Goodrich, H. E.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Bramall, E. A.

  Gordon-Walker, P. C

  McGovern, J

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

  Mack, J. D.

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Grey, C. F.

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

  Grierson, E.

  McLeavy, F.

  Burden, T. W.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Burke, W. A.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Callaghan, James

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Carmichael, James

  Gunter, R. J

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Guy, W. H.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

  Chamberlain, R. A.

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hale, Leslie

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Chater, D.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

  Manning, Mrs. L (Epping)

  Chetwynd, G. R

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Marquand, H. A.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Cobb, F. A.

  Hardy, E. A

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Harrison, J.

  Medland, H. M

  Coldrick, W.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Mellish, R. J.

  Collick, P.

  Haworth, J.

  Messer F.

  Collindridge, F.

  Henderson, Rt Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

  Middleton, Mrs. L

  Collins, V. J.

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Hewitson, Capt M

  Mitchison, G. R

  Cook, T. F.

  Hicks, G.

  Monslow, W.

  Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Moody, A. S.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.)

  Holman, P.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Corlett, Dr. J

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Morley, R.

  Cove, W. G.

  Horabin, T. L

  Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S

  House, G

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Hoy, J.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H (Lewisham, E.)

  Cullen, Mrs. A

  Hubbard, T.

  Mort, D. L.

  Daggar, G.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W)

  Moyle, A.

  Daines, P.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

  Murray, J. D

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Nally, W.

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Neal, H (Claycross)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Nicholls, H. R, (Stratford)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon P. J. (Derby)

  Deer, G.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Janner, B.

  O'Brien, T.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  496

  497

  Dliver, G. H.

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

  Orbach, M.

  Sharp, Granville

  Turner-Samuels, M

  Paget, R. T.

  Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

  Ungoed-Thomas, L

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Usborne, Henry

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Shurmer, P.

  Viant, S. P.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

  Walkden, E.

  Parker, J.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Walker, G. H.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C

  Warbey, W. N.

  Pearson, A.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Peart, T. F.

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Watson, W. M

  Perrins, W.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

  Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Piratin, P.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Weitzman, D.

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

  Snow, J. W.

  West, D. G.

  Popplewell, E.

  Solley, L. J

  Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Sparks, J. A

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Steele, T

  Wigg, George

  Pritt, D. N.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E)

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

  Proctor, W. T.

  Stokes, R. R.

  Wilkes, L.

  Pursey, Comdr. H.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Randall, H. E.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Lambeth)

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Ranger, J.

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Rankin, J.

  Stubbs, A. E.

  Williams, D. J (Neath)

  Rees-Williams, D. R.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Reeves, J.

  Swingler, S.

  Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Sylvester, G. O

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Rhodes, H.

  Symonds, A. L.

  Willis, E

  Richards, R.

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Wills, Mrs. E. A

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Robens, A.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon A

  Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Woods, G. S

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  Thomas, John R. (Dover)

  Wyatt, W.

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Yates, V. F

  Royle, C.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Young, Sir R (Newton)

  Sargood, R

  Tiffany, S

  Younger, Hon Kenneth

  Scollan, T.

  Timmons, J.

  Zilliacus, K

  Scott-Elliott, W

  Titterington, M. F.

  Segal, Dr. S

  Tolley, L.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. R. J. Taylor.

  NOES

  Agnew, Cmdr P. G

  Digby, S. W

  Herbert, Sir A. P.

  Aitken, Hon. Max

  Dodds-Parker, A. D

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

  Donner, P. W.

  Hogg, Hon. Q

  Astor, Hon. M

  Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

  Hollis, M. C.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Howard, Hon. A.

  Birch, Nigel

  Duncan, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (City of Lond)

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S (Southport)

  Beles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Hulbert, Wing-Cir. N. J.

  Boothby, R.

  Eccles, D. M.

  Hurd, A.

  Bossom, A. C

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Bowen, R.

  Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Bower, N.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Jarvis, Sir J.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Jennings, R.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

  Fox, Sir G.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

  Kendall, W. D

  Butcher, H. W.

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H

  Byers, Frank

  Gage, C.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Carson, E.

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Challen, C.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Channon, H.

  Gates, Maj. E. E.

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S

  George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

  Clarke, Col, R. S.

  George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

  Cole, T. L.

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Lipson. D. L.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E

  Gridley, Sir A

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Grimston, R. V

  Low, A. R. W.

  Corbett, Lt-Col. U.

  Gruffydd, Prof. W. J

  Lucas, Major Sir J

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt Hon. H. F. C.

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O E.

  Harden, J. R. E.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Crowder, Capt. John E

  Hare, Hon. J. H (Woodbridge)

  MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

  McCallum, Maj. D.

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Hams, H. Wilson (Cambridge Univ.)

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

  McFarlane, C. S.

  De la Bère, R.

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Mackeson, Brig H. R

  498

  499

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  MacLeod, J.

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Taylor, C. S (Eastbourne)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Prescott, Stanley

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

  Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

  Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

  Teeling, William

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Raikes, H. V.

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

  Marples, A. E.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Renton, D.

  Touche, G. C.

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Turton, R. H.

  Maude, J. C.

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Medlicott, Brigadier F.

  Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Wadsworth, G.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

  Wakefield, Sir W. W.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Ward, Hon. G. R

  Morris-Jones, Sir H.

  Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

  Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Sanderson, Sir F.

  Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

  Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Savory, Prof. D. L.

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Scott, Lord W.

  White, Sir D. (Fareham)

  Mullan, Lt. C. H.

  Shephard, S. (Newark)

  White, J. B. (Canterbury)

  Neill, W. F. (Belfast, N.)

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

  Williams. Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Nicholson, G.

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Nield, B. (Chester).

  Smithers, Sir W.

  York, C.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Snadden, W. M.

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

  Odey, G. W.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

  Mr. Drewe.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

  Bill read a Second time.
  Mr. Eden: I beg to move, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."
  Question put.
  The House proceeded to a Division.
  Mr. Hogg(seated and covered): On a point of Order. After you had given instructions for the door to be locked, Mr. Speaker, I saw the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Shawcross) assault the attendant and force his way into the Lobby. Is that in Order, Sir?
  Mr. Speaker: The correct time for that point to be raised is when the Tellers have come to the Table, and before I declare the numbers. It will then be the correct moment for the hon. Member to raise the point.
  Mr. Hogg: Seated and covered?
  Mr. Speaker: No, I have called the House to Order. Therefore, one does not have to be seated and covered. It is a point of Order.
  The Tellers having come to the Table—
  Mr. Hogg: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. After you had given orders for the doors to be locked, I saw the hon. Member for Widnes assault the attendant and force his way into the "No" Lobby. Is that in Order, and what is the effect upon the Division?
  Mr. Speaker: There I am afraid I must declare that if the door was opened for the hon. Member after I had said, "Lock the doors" his vote cannot be counted, and, therefore, one vote must be taken off, whichever way he voted. I should not say whether he voted "Aye" or "No," but his vote cannot be taken after I have said "Lock the doors" if he had not been through the doors.
  Mr. Scollan: Further to that point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is this challenge to be accepted without further sifting the evidence?
  Mr. Speaker: As a matter of fact, there is no need for that. I happened to observe it from my seat and I saw the attendant open the door to him. There was no question about it. The hon. Member was here. The attendant was really at fault for opening the door to him. I saw it myself. The paper must be altered for one vote less for whichever way the hon. Member voted.
  Mr. Popplewell (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household): I have no idea which way the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Shawcross) voted.
  Mr. Speaker: As I told the hon. Member, I happened to see the incident myself and I saw him go into the "No" Lobby.
  Ayes, 212; Noes, 366.

  Division No. 5.]

  AYES

  [10.12 p.m.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

  Harden, J. R. E.

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Aitken, Hon. Max

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

  Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Harris, M. Wilson (Cambridge Univ.)

  Odey, G. W.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Herbert, Sir A. P.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Birch, Nigel

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Boles, Ll.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Hogg, Hon. Q

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Boothby, R.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Prescott, Stanley

  Bossom, A. C

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

  Bowen, R.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. C

  Bower, N.

  Howard, Hon. A.

  Raikes, H. V.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

  Rayner, Brig R.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

  Hurd, A.

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Renton, D.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Butcher, H. W.

  Jarvis, Sir J.

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

  Byers, Frank

  Jennings, R.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Carson, E.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon, L. W

  Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

  Challen, C.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ropner, Col L

  Channon, H.

  Kendall, W. D.

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Sanderson, Sir F.

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Savory, Prof. D. L

  Cole, T. L.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G

  Scott, Lord W.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Shephard, S. (Newark)

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Law, Rt Hon. R. K.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Corbett, Lt.-Col. U.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Crowder, Capt. John E

  Lipson, D. L.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Snadden, W. M.

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Lucas, Major Sir J

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  De la Bère R.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

  Digby, S. W.

  MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  McCallum, Maj. D.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Donner, P. W.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

  Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight)

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

  McFarlane, C. S.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

  Teeling, William

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Duncan, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (City of Lond.)

  Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Duthie, W. S.

  MacLeod, J.

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

  Eccles, D. M.

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

  Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

  Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Touche, G. C.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Turton, R. H.

  Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Marples, A. E.

  Vane, W. M. F

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Wadsworth, G.

  Fox, Sir G.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Wakefield, Sir W. W

  Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Maude, J. C.

  Ward, Hon. G. R.

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Medlicott, Brigadier F

  Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

  Gage, C.

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

  Gammans, L. D.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

  White, Sir D. (Fareham)

  Gates, Maj. E. E

  Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

  White, J. B. (Canterbury)

  George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

  Morris-Jones, Sir H.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  York, C.

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Mullan, Lt. C. H.

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  Grimston, R. V.

  Neill, W. F. (Belfast, N.)

  Gruffydd, Prof. W. J.

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Nicholson, G.

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and Mr. Drewe.

  NOES

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Allen, Scholefield (Crowe)

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Alpass, J. H.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Ayles, W. H.

  Albu, A. H.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

  Alexander, Rt. Hon A. V.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Baird, J.

  502

  503

  Balfour, A.

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Levy, B. W.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

  Barstow, P. G.

  Follick, M.

  Lewis, J. (Bolton)

  Bartlett, V.

  Foot, M. M.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Barton, C.

  Forman, J. C.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Battley, J. R.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  Logan, D. G

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Longden, F.

  Benson, G.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Berry, H

  Gallacher, W.

  McAdam, W

  Beswick, F.

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S

  McAllister, G.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Gibbins, J.

  McEntee, V. La T

  Binns, J

  Gibson, C. W

  McGhee, H. G.

  Blackburn, A. R.

  Gilzean, A.

  McGovern, J.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Mack, J. D.

  Boardman, H.

  Goodrich, H. E.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Bottomley, A, G.

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

  Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M (L'pl. Exch'ge)

  Grenfell, D. R.

  McLeavy, F.

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Grey, C. F.

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Bramall, E. A.

  Grierson, E.

  MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

  Brook, D (Halifax)

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Guest. Dr. L. Haden

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

  Gunter, R. J

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Burden, T. W.

  Guy, W. H.

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Burke, W. A.

  Haire, John E (Wycombe)

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Hale, Leslie

  Marquand, H. A.

  Callaghan, James

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Carmichael, James

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Medland, H. M

  Chamberlain, R. A

  Hardy, E. A.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Champion, A. J.

  Harrison, J.

  Messer, F.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Cobb, F. A

  Haworth, J.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Cocks, F. S.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

  Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R

  Coldrick, W.

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Mitchison, G. R

  Collick, P.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Monslow, W.

  Collindridge, F.

  Hewitson, Capt. M

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Collins, V. J.

  Hicks, G.

  Morley, R.

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Holman, P.

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Cook, T. F

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H (Lewisham, E.)

  Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

  Horabin, T. L

  Mort, D. L.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.)

  House, G.

  Moyle, A.

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Hoy, J.

  Mulvey, A.

  Cove, W. G.

  Hubbard, T.

  Murray, J. D.

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Nally, W.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Daggar, G.

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Daines, P.

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

  O'Brien, T.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Janner, B.

  Orbach, M.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Paget, R. T.

  Deer, G.

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Delargy, H. J

  Jenkins, R. H.

  Palmer, A. M. F

  Diamond, J

  John, W.

  Pargiter, G. A

  Dobbie, W.

  Johnston, Douglas

  Parker, J.

  Dodds, N. N

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Donovan, T

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Pearson, A.

  Dumpleton, C. W

  Keenan, W.

  Peart, T. F.

  Dye, S.

  Kenyon, C.

  Perrins, W.

  Ede, Rt Hon. J. C

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Piratin, P.

  Edelman, M.

  King, E. M.

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

  Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Kinley, J.

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

  Kirby, B. V.

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Kirkwood, Rt Hon D

  Pritt, D. N.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

  Lang, G.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Lavers, S.

  Pursey, Comdr. H

  Evans. John (Ogmore)

  Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J

  Randall, H. E.

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Ranger, J.

  Ewart, R.

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Rankin, J.

  Fairhurst, F.

  Leonard, W.

  Rees-williams, D. R

  Farthing, W. J

  Leslie, J. R.

  Reeves, J.

  Fernyhough, E

  Lever, N. H

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  504

  505

  Rhodes, H.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Warbey, W. N

  Richards, R.

  Stokes, R. R.

  Watkins, T. E

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Watson, W. M

  Robens, A.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon G. R. (Lambeth)

  Webb, M, (Bradford, C.)

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Weitzman, D.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Stubbs, A. E.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

  Summerskill, Dr Edith

  West, D. G.

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  Swingler, S.

  Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Sylvester, G. D

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Royle, C.

  Symonds, A. L

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon W.

  Sargood, R

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

  Scollan, T.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Wilkes, L.

  Scott-Elliot, W.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Segal, Dr. S.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Shackleton, E. A. A

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Sharp, Granville

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Williams, D. J (Neath)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Thomas, John R. (Dover)

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Shurmer, P.

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

  Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Tiffany, S.

  Willis, E.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Timmons, J.

  Wills, Mrs. E. A

  Skeffington, A. M

  Titterington, M. F

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C

  Tolley, L.

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

  Woodburn, Rt Hon. A

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Woods, G. S

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

  Ungoed-Thomas, L

  Wyatt, W.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Usborne, Henry

  Yates, V. F.

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

  Vernon, Maj. W. F

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Snow, J. W.

  Viant, S. P.

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Solley, L. J.

  Walkden, E.

  Sparks, J. A

  Walker, G. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Steele, T

  Wallace, H. W (Walthamstow, E)

  Mr. Popplewell and Mr. G. Wallace.

  Bill committed to a Standing Committee.

  IRON AND STEEL [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—(King's Recommendation signified.)
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide, amongst other things, for the establishment of an Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain and for defining their functions, and for the transfer to that Corporation of the securities of certain companies engaged in the working, getting and smelting of iron ore, the production of steel, and the shaping of steel by rolling, it is expedient to authorise—

  (a) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums as may be required to fulfil any guarantee by the Treasury of the principal of and interest on stock issued by the said Corporation or the principal of and interest on moneys temporarily borrowed by the said Corporation or any publicly-owned company (within the meaning of the said Act), so, however, that the amounts outstanding in respect of the principal of the stock so issued for the purpose of the exercise of the Corporation's borrowing powers and in respect of any moneys temporarily borrowed as aforesaid do not at any time exceed the sum of three hundred and fifty million pounds, excluding amounts outstanding in respect of stock issued or moneys temporarily borrowed for the purpose of redeeming stock or repaying moneys temporarily borrowed;

  (b) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  506

  (i) subsidies to the Corporation in respect of amounts by which the total cost of imported iron and steel and other imported materials acquired by the Corporation exceeds the price at which they are sold in Great Britain;

  (ii) remuneration and allowances to, and expenses of, stockholders' representatives appointed under the said Act;

  (iii) fees and allowances to any referee or board of referees appointed under the said Act to decide questions relating to pension rights or compensation of or in respect of officers, and allowances to witnesses appearing before any such referee or board;

  (iv) remuneration and allowances to members and officers of the arbitration tribunal appointed under the said Act and to persons to whom proceedings are referred by that tribunal, and any other expenses of that tribunal;

  (v) the administrative expenses incurred under the said Act by any Minister of the Crown or Government department;

  (c) the payment into the Exchequer of any sums received by any Minister of the Crown or Government department under or by virtue of the said Act.—(Mr. G. R. Strauss.)

  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: I hope we are to have some short explanation from the Financial Secretary, because many millions will be voted by this Resolution. The Committee should not let this procedure pass without a short word of disapproval, anyway from myself, because we are now passing within the purview of the Committee £350,000,000 or more which we

  507
  cannot have reported back to the House until it is expended. I wish, therefore, to raise two points. In the Money Resolution on the Coal Bill a period of five years was inserted during which the £150,000,000 had to be expended. May I ask why it is not considered a proper thing for a similar period of five years, or, as I suggest, a shorter period, for this blank cheque to be passed by this Committee?
  The second point is: why have the words
  "otherwise than for paid compensation under this Act"
  been omitted from this Money Resolution. More or less the same words were included in the Gas and Electricity Money Resolutions. But in this Resolution, the words
  "for the purpose of the exercise of the Corporation's borrowing powers"
  are substituted for the words,
  "otherwise than for paid compensation under this Act."
  I raise this point because from the paragraph as it stands it appears that the £350,000,000 includes not only the money for the rehabilitation of the industry but also the compensation. I appreciate that in the Explanatory Memorandum the contrary is stated, but what I wish to point out is that this paragraph seems to read as if the amounts outstanding in respect of stock so issued for compensation and money temporarily borrowed shall be limited to £350,000,000. In the other Money Resolutions the words, "otherwise than for paid compensation" were inserted, and it seems to me that without some explanation, the £350,000,000 covers both items.
  We are entitled to some explanation why we have departed in this case from the precedent of the others. I consider that passing £350,000,000 and, as the Financial Secretary said, other millions, possibly £200,000,000, in five minutes in this House, is not the way we should control public money. We are being asked to guarantee loans by the Corporation, in other words, to back the cheques of the Corporation. I was always taught by my father that it was a very unwise thing to back other people's cheques unless you knew exactly what it was about. Therefore, I suggest that we should have some explanation of the
  508
  attitude of the Government on this matter.
  Mr. Gallacher: On a point of order, may I ask, Mr. Chairman, if you are going to call my Amendment?
  The Chairman: I am afraid I cannot accept the hon. Member's Amendment.
  Mr. Charles Williams: After the brilliant speech which we heard a short time ago from the Lord President of the Council, it would be grossly unfair if the Financial Secretary to the Treasury did not have an opportunity to add to the brilliancy at the end of the evening. I want to ask one or two questions, as this is the only chance which we in the House of Commons get of inquiring into these matters. I strongly support the speech of the hon. Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts). It is grossly wrong of the Government to insist upon a Resolution of this kind being forced through the Committee at this time of night. There is no need to amplify that, because we know perfectly well why it is being forced through in so short a time. It was laid down only too clearly by the Lord President a week ago, that he does not want his own people to have to work a little overtime. That is the real reason why we are not allowed proper time for this Resolution.
  There are two points on which I should like some information. They concern sub-paragraphs (iii) and (iv). This is the best opportunity we have of finding out if there is any plan in the minds of the Government as to the sort of boards they are to set up, and how big they are to be. We have been told that this is cut and dried. The Lord President said it was all worked out. We should know how many officials are being appointed, and what type of person is to be put on the boards, and the amount of remuneration to be paid. We all remember, as many outside this Committee remember, that this was not fully gone into on the occasion of previous nationalisations, and the result is that some appointments were nothing but unfortunate. That being the case, I hope that some member of the Government will be able to give this information.
  Mr. Gallacher: I put down an Amendment to delete sub-paragraph (iii), but it has not been accepted. An hon. Member opposite has said that it is bad that the Committee should pass

  509
  an amount of £300,000,000-odd at this time of the night. This is as good a time as any to pass any amount of money in a good cause, but when it is in a bad cause, it is as bad a time as any. I must express my feeling of shock that the Government, after the experience it has had with the Coal Board, and the difficulties the Coal Board has experienced because of the amount of money it has to pay to the former coalowners, should start loading this Corporation with such an amount of money to pay to the former owners of the steel industry. This has been a "steal" industry long enough, with the emphasis on the "a." It is going to continue to be a "steal" industry if this amount of money is to be paid.
  I suggest that the Government should take back this Resolution and in paragraph (a) make an allowance for the money which will be necessary to the Corporation for the rehabilitation of the industry. The Parliamentary Secretary last night drew attention to how the steel barons not only neglected the industry but kept masses of the workers unemployed between the wars. There was a terrific neglect of the industry. The Parliamentary Secretary said the steel workers understood the terrible condition of the industry under the steel barons in the inter-war years. Yet, these steel barons, who were so busy in the interwar years that they had no thought for the workers, are going to get the bulk of the millions proposed in this Money Resolution.
  I suggest that the Government should not follow the course followed with the coalowners; they have over-burdened the industry, and I hope that the Government will bring in a special resolution dealing with compensation. I am not going to send the "steal" barons to the Assistance Board. I am not so hardhearted as that. What I would suggest is that the Government bring in a resolution to deal with the industry, and then bring in another resolution to give a living allowance to these men; the men from whom they have taken the shares. The Government should not give them a fabulous sum, but a sum for the period of their natural life, so that they may live—
  The Chairman: I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman is not in Order. His remarks might be in Order at some stage of the Bill, but not at this stage.
  Mr. Gallacher: I bow always to your Ruling, Major Milner. I am always happy to get your guidance, but I thought that I was expressing the feelings of many hon. Members on this side of the Committee. I say that because those Members never visualised nationalisation as a method of making free gifts to the barons. Nobody who pioneered the building of the movement ever thought that the Coal Bill, the Electricity Bill, the Gas Bill, and now the Steel Bill, would provide for those people; would make provisions so that the money can be handed down to sons and grandsons, burdening the nation with a lot of responsibilities which ought to have been abolished long ago.
  So, I say again to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury—and there is no man in whom hon. Members put greater trust—that he should recommend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other members of the Government, that this Resolution should be taken back and that there should be put in its place a resolution which, no matter how disturbing it may be to the living parasites, will at least be something which will give peace and comfort to the spirit of the pioneers of the great Labour movement. I do ask the Government to consider this matter very seriously; it is not the steel barons for whom we are legislating, but the workers who supported the Labour movement.
  10.45 p.m.
  Mr. David Renton: I presume that the disruptive suggestions of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) have received little sympathy on either side of the Committee, and I propose, therefore, at once to proceed to the question of how something which I consider a costly federation to the workers of this country can be as little burdensome as possible. Every scheme of nationalisation has a very heavy financial handicap which industries run by private enterprise do not have. This is the financial handicap of what we may call the "bureaucratic pyramid." That is, a tight mass of officials from the head of the Corporation, down through the area offices, and so to the people who, at last, are supposed to be doing the job, but subject to too much direction from above.

  511
  In other nationalised industries, both in this country and abroad, it has been exceedingly difficult for the concerns to be run at a profit, because of the financial handicap of that bureaucratic pyramid. We do not know exactly what is going to happen on this occasion if by some misfortune this scheme is ever brought about, because we have not been told about it, and we cannot gain the slightest impression from the Financial Memorandum. All we know is that we are being asked to pass an unlimited sum for some uncertain time in the future for
  "the administrative expenses incurred under the said Act by any Minister of the Crown or Government department."
  It seems that upon that broadly worded sentence a bureaucratic pyramid with immense foundations can be built up. I should like to supplement the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) that we should have some kind of indication of the bureaucracy which is to be imposed upon this industry and which may very well make it into a financial loss.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I hope the Government will think twice about this Financial Resolution, because, as the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has already pointed out, there is great disquiet, especially in the mining areas, about the huge sums that have been paid for compensation. It is a profound mistake to think that this is only the point of view of the Communist Party. It is a point of view very widely shared in the trade union world, and as far as the mines are concerned, there is every evidence to show that far from being mean to the shareholders, the terms of compensation were over-generous. We have heard a great deal about Stock Exchange quotations in the course of the Debate on this Bill, but I could point to the case of a firm in my constituency whose £1 share is now quoted at 75s. I suggest that the members of the Opposition, who are so keen about decreasing public expenditure and so afraid of inflation, should show a little consideration when this huge burden is going to be placed upon the industry of the country. I suggest that the Government should introduce some kind of Clause which will prohibit giving compensation to anyone in excess of £5,000 a year. I urge the
  512
  Government to remember that this policy of over-compensation to the people who have mismanaged our industry in the past is one that deserves further consideration.
  Sir John Mellor: I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question. There is a reference in the terms of the Resolution to
  "any guarantee by the Treasury of the principal of and interest on stock."
  Am I right in assuming that, as it is proposed to guarantee the principal of the stock, the stock will be dated stock? Will it be stock with a fixed date of redemption or a fixed period during which it must be redeemed? I ask that for this reason—if it was proposed to issue a stock with no fixed date for redemption, a stock like Dalton stock of unhappy memory, there would be no occasion whatsoever to guarantee the principal. It would be quite sufficient to guarantee payment of the interest. Therefore, I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether this stock which is to be issued will be dated stock.
  Mr. George Ward: In considering this extremely large sum it is essential that we should know as far as possible how it is to be spent. Our confidence has not increased in any way by consideration of one example which does exist of nationalisation in the steel industry, or the State ownership of part of that industry. If I may, I should like to refer to this particular case. It may be remembered that during the war the Ministry of Supply bought a company called the South Wales Forgemasters, Limited. They bought £10,000 worth of share capital at 10s. a share. The Ministry also loaned the company £271,000 for the purpose of building a new drop-forging plant, and advanced considerable sums to the company for working capital. As it happened, this new plant was not ready for full operation until 1945, when the war ended. But the Ministry of Supply, instead of handing the plant back to private enterprise, decided to operate it in competition with private enterprise.
  The result of this operation was that the company made a loss up to June, 1947, amounting to £186,000, of which £124,000 was lost in the years 1945–46 and 1946–47. The works were run by an extremely efficient manager but he

  513
  received his instructions direct from the Ministry of Supply. On numerous occasions I understand the directors advised the Ministry of the extremely heavy losses which were being incurred, and these losses were always met by further loans from the Ministry.
  The Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but his argument does not seem to arise on the Financial Resolution. It may be an appropriate argument on Second Reading or on the Committee stage, but it does not seem to be relevant on the Financial Resolution.
  Mr. Ward: All I was trying to point out was the irresponsible way in which the State was prepared to spend money voted by Parliament. There was never any difficulty in getting the money to meet these heavy losses, in spite of the directors' warnings, and with great respect that is a point we should consider. The end of the story is that the company was sold to a firm of Birmingham drop forgers for £144,890 5s. 2d. It will be seen, therefore, that the Ministry of Supply lost almost as much between July, 1945, and June, 1947, as they eventually received for the whole plant.
  The Chairman: What the hon. Gentleman is saying, and saying at some length if I may say so, and with too much detail, is something which I do not think is relevant on this occasion. It may be relevant on other occasions.
  Mr. Ward: I am grateful to you, Major Milner, for your Ruling and for your patience. I have finished now. All I should like to say is that if this is the way in which money which we have voted here is going to be misused, we are justified in voting against it.
  Mr. Scollan: It seems to be accepted, especially by the Opposition, that everybody on this side of the House is in favour of the Bill, holus-bolus. The great majority are in favour of the Bill, but on the Financial Resolution there is some very grave doubt about the wisdom of paying the sum it is proposed to pay. One of the things that rather interested me during the Debate on the Second Reading was that not one hon. Member ever drew attention to the fact that while the date was fixed on which shares being paid for at Stock Exchange prices—
  The Chairman: The question of the methods or assessment of compensation clearly does not arise here at all.
  Mr. Scollan: I am glad I have your guidance in the matter, Major Milner, but I was not dealing with the assessment at all. What I was dealing with was the point why that particular sum should be fixed, not the assessment.
  The Chairman: The hon. Member is really in error: there is no sum fixed in this Resolution in respect of compensation. The sum is quite at large.
  Mr. Scollan: Do I understand that this £350,000,000 goes towards paying the shareholders?
  The Chairman: No, that is not the case: this Resolution gives authority for borrowing that sum for other purposes altogether.
  The Minister of Supply (Mr. G. R. Strauss): Two or three points have been raised in discussion. Most of them are of a general character and I do not think that the Committee will want me to deal with them in any detail. They include the question whether any compensation at all, or at any rate, on the basis proposed in the Bill, should be paid. I am sure the Committee do not want me to deal with that this evening. Another general question which was raised was whether I could give any details as to how the money would be spent, who would be on the Corporation and what its task would be. Those questions were dealt with broadly and at great length during the Second Reading Debate, and I feel the Committee would not want me to deal with them. There were, however. three specific points—
  Mr. C. Williams: Normally I should not dream of asking the right hon. Gentleman, but I feel it is most discourteous of him not to give me any reply at all—or does he just not know?
  Mr. Strauss: It seems to me that if I attempted to answer the hon. Member, which I should be perfectly happy to do, I should have to go into detail and the Chairman would rule me out of Order. [HON. MEMBERS: "Try."] I have no desire to be out of Order, or to be called to Order by the Chair. Obviously the questions the hon. Member raised were

  515
  not appropriate to the Financial Resolution.
  The Chairman: It may help if I say that it does seem to me that the salaries of the members of the board of the Corporation are not dealt with by the Financial Resolution at all. The Financial Resolution refers to the boards of referees, the arbitration tribunal and so forth and not to the board of the Corporation.
  Mr. Williams: I think, on that point of Order, I may have used the wrong word, but I did refer to sub-paragraphs (iii) and (iv):
  "fees and allowances to any referee or board of referees";
  and
  "remuneration and allowances to members and officers of the arbitration tribunal."
  Those were two points I particularly wished to have some information on and they are included in the Financial Resolution.
  The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman will be in Order in replying on those points.
  Mr. Scollan: With regard to your Ruling, Major Milner, that I was out of Order, I read in this Money Resolution:
  "The payment out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums as may be required to fulfil any guarantee by the Treasury of the principal of and interest on stock issued by the said Corporation."
  If that is in the Money Resolution, I want to know why I am out of Order in discussing the particular sum that is going to be allocated for that purpose.
  The Chairman: For the simple reason that no sum is mentioned in the Resolution. The matter of the Resolution refers to guarantees by the Treasury to the Corporation.
  Mr. Scollan: Further to that point of Order, I was not dealing with an amount, nor did I specify any amount. I was dealing with particular shareholders' prices fixed on a particular date.
  The Chairman: If that was what the hon. Member was doing, again, he would not be in Order. The occasion for the hon. Gentleman is on the Committee stage of the Bill.
  Mr. Scollan: I must accept your Ruling, but I must submit that it is very very peculiar, and I do not see how it is out of Order.
  Mr. Piratin: Is it not the case that the actual amount of £350 million is stated, and is that not a precise figure to which the hon. Member could refer?
  The Chairman: That figure refers to an entirely different matter—the question of the Corporation's borrowing powers.
  11.0 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: I think that the point which the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) has now put is rather different from the one he first raised. I understand he wants to know what sort of remuneration the men who sit on boards of referees and arbitration tribunals will receive. There is a standard rate laid down by the Treasury, but I do not know the figure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] This is a matter of detail which I did not think the Committee would want to know. It is a standard rate laid down by the Treasury and it has been in operation for many years. It is a matter of a few guineas a day. If it interests the hon. Member to know what that rate is, I could find it out and let him know. It is not a matter of great principle.
  Mr. C. Williams: As the Minister cannot give it now, will he give it on the Report stage? That would be the fair thing to do if he has not the knowledge now.
  Mr. Strauss: If the hon. Member puts a question down, I will answer it.
  Mr. Gallacher: Would it not be better to use the money available to give the old-age pensioners £2 a week?
  Mr. Strauss: I want to deal with the three points of substance which have been put to me. The hon. Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts) was rather puzzled by the wording of the Resolution and was not quite clear whether the £350 million included compensation stock or not. It does not. The compensation is paid out of a separate sum; we do not know exactly what it will be, but it will be in the neighbourhood of £300 million. The £350 million is in respect of the borrowings which the Corporation is likely

  517
  to undertake during the first five to seven years of its existence.
  Mr. P. Roberts: I appreciate that, but surely the guarantee was to be given for
  "the principal of and interest on moneys temporarily borrowed by the said Corporation or any publicly-owned company … and in respect of any moneys temporarily borrowed as aforesaid do not at any time exceed the sum of £350 million…"
  It is the word "and" in line 12 which worries me.
  Mr. Strauss: I am assured that it is legally correct. The wording is different from other Bills, but it ties up with Clause 30 (4) of the Bill.
  The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) asked me what was meant by the administrative expenses which were being voted, and he was fearful lest the Treasury were giving out vast sums to pay a huge bureaucracy, and that once we parted with this Resolution we would have no further control. I do not think he need worry on that score. The amount likely to be spent under this head will be very small, and will come annually before Parliament in my Department's Vote, so he will be able to check the amount, and if he considers it is too high he will be able to complain or vote against it.
  Mr. Renton: We are being asked to vote now these sums. Can the right hon.
  Gentleman give us some idea of the liability we are incurring?
  Mr. Strauss: This is common form in every Bill of this sort. It is essential to make arrangements for Departmental expenses which may be necesary in setting up the Corporation. They are likely to be small, and in fact may be nothing at all, but we must make provision for them. They will come before the House every year, and the hon. Member will be able to keep an annual check on the Department and see that we are not being extravagant. The other point of substance was that by the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor). He asked whether this stock would he dated and redeemable, and the answer is "Yes." Those I think were the major points put to me, apart from the general problem whether we were paying too much compensation. I may add that I now have the figures for which the hon. Member asked. The fee paid to referees is about five guineas a day when they are sitting, and for the members of a tribunal about three guineas a day. These amounts have been in operation a long time, and they will apply to the boards of referees and the tribunals proposed in this Bill.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 320; Noes, 190.

  Division No. 6.]

  AYES

  [11.8 p.m.]

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Bramall, E. A.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

  Albu, A. H.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Davies, S. O (Merthyr)

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

  Deer, G.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Burden, T. W.

  Delargy, H. J

  Alpass, J. H.

  Burke, W. A.

  Diamond, J.

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Dobbie, W.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Carmichael, James

  Dodds, N. N.

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Donovan, T

  Awbery, S. S.

  Chamberlain, R. A

  Driberg, T. E. N

  Ayles, W. H

  Champion, A. J.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

  Chetwynd, G. R

  Dumpleton, C. W

  Bacon, Miss A

  Cobb, F. A.

  Dye, S.

  Baird, J.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J C

  Balfour, A

  Coldrick, W.

  Edelman, M.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

  Collick, P.

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Barstow, P. G

  Collindridge, F

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

  Barton, C.

  Collins, V. J.

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Colman, Miss G. M

  Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

  Ballenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Benson, G

  Cook, T. F.

  Evans, John (Ogmore)

  Berry, H.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.)

  Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

  Binns, J.

  Corlett, Dr. J

  Ewart, R.

  Blackburn, A. R

  Cove, W. G.

  Fairhurst, F

  Blyton, W. R.

  Crossman, R. H. S

  Farthing, W. J

  Boardman, H.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Daggar, G.

  Field, Capt W. J

  Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

  Daines, P.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl Exch'ge)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Foot, M. M.

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Forman, J. C.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  McAllister, G.

  Scott-Elliott, W

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Segal, Dr. S.

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Shackleton, E. A. A

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S

  Mack, J. D.

  Sharp, Granville

  Gibbins, J.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

  Gibson, C. W

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Gilzean, A

  McLeavy, F.

  Shurmer, P.

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Goodrich, H. E.

  MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

  Simmons, C. J

  Gordon-Walker, P. C

  MacPherson, T. (Romford)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Greenwood, A W J (Heywood)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C

  Grey, C. F.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Grierson, E

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Griffiths, Rt Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

  Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

  Marquand, H. A

  Snow, J. W.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Solley, L. J.

  Gunter, R. J.

  Medland, H. M

  Sparks, J. A

  Guy, W. H.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Steele, T

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Hale, Leslie

  Mikardo, Ian

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

  Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R

  Strauss, Rt. Hon G. R. (Lambeth)

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

  Mitchison, G. R

  Stubbs, A. E.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Monslow, W.

  Swingler, S.

  Hardy, E. A

  Moody, A. S.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Harrison, J.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Symonds, A. L.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Morley, R.

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Haworth, J.

  Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Mort, D. L.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Moyle, A.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Hewitson, Capt M

  Murray, J. D.

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Hobson, C. R.

  Nally, W.

  Thomas, John R. (Dover)

  Holman, P.

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Horabin, T. L.

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Tiffany, S.

  Hoy, J.

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Timmons, J.

  Hubbard, T.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

  Titterington, M. F.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W)

  O'Brien, T.

  Tolley, L.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

  Oldfield, W. H

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Orbach, M.

  Usborne, Henry

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Palmer, A. M. F

  Warbey, W. N.

  Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

  Parker, J.

  Watson, W. M.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Janner, B.

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Weitzman, D.

  Jeger, G (Winchester)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.)

  Pearson, A

  West, D. G.

  Jenkins, R. H

  Pearl, T. F

  Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

  John, W

  Perrins, W.

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Johnston, Douglas

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Wilkes, L.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Jones. J. H. (Bolton)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Keenan, W.

  Pursey, Comdr. H

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Kenyon, C.

  Randall, H. E.

  Williams, J. L (Kelvingrove)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Ranger, J.

  Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

  Rankin, J.

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Kinley, J

  Rees-Williams, D. R

  Willis, E.

  Kirkwood, Rt. Hon D

  Reeves, J.

  Wills, Mrs. E. A

  Lang, G.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Lavers, S

  Rhodes, H

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Richards, R.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon A

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M

  Woods, G. S

  Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

  Robens, A.

  Wyatt, W.

  Lewis, J. (Bolton)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Yates, V. F.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  Zilliacus, K

  Logan, D. G

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Longden, F.

  Royle, C

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Lyne, A. W

  Sargood, R

  Mr. Popplewell and

  McAdam, W.

  Scollan, T.

  Mr. George Wallace.

  NOES

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

  Bowen, R

  Aitken, Hon. Max

  Beechman, N. A.

  Bower, N.

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

  Birch, Nigel

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Astor, Hon. M

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Boothby, R.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Bossom, A. C

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  520

  521

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Odey, G. W.

  Butcher, H. W.

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

  Hope, Lord J.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Byers, Frank

  Howard, Hon. A.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Carson, E.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon R. S (Southport)

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Challen, C.

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Channon, H.

  Hurd, A.

  Prescott, Stanley

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

  Hutchison, Col, J. R. (Glasgow, C)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

  Cole, T. L.

  Jarvis, Sir J.

  Raikes, H. V.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Jennings, R.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Corbett, Lt.-Col. U.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Crookshank. Capt. Rt Hon. H. F. C

  Keeling, E. H.

  Renton, D.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Crowder, Capt. John E

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Robertson, Sir D (Streatham)

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

  Ropner, Col. L

  De la Bère, R

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Digby, S. W.

  Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

  Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A

  Dodds-Parker, A. D

  Lipson. D. L.

  Sanderson, Sir F.

  Donner, P. W.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Savory, Prof. D. L

  Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

  Low, A. R. W.

  Scott, Lord W.

  Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

  Lucas, Major Sir J

  Shephard, S. (Newark)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Drewe, C.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Duncan. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (City of Lond)

  McCallum, Maj. D.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. O

  Duthie, W. S

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Eccles, D. M.

  McFarlane, C. S.

  Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

  Eden, Rt. Hon A.

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Walter

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Taylor, C. S (Eastbourne)

  Erroll, F. J.

  Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Teeling, William

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Fox, Sir G.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

  Manningham-Buller, R. E

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Marples, A. E.

  Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

  Gage, C.

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Touche, G. C.

  Galbraith, Cmdr T. D

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Turton, R. H.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Vane, W. M. F

  Gates, Maj. E. E.

  Maude, J. C.

  Wadsworth, G.

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Wakefield, Sir W. W

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

  Ward, Hon. G. R

  Grimston, R. V.

  Morris-Jones, Sir H.

  Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

  Gruffydd, Prof W. J

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester)

  White, Sir D (Fareham)

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  White, J. B. (Canterbury)

  Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

  Mullan, Lt. C. H.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V

  Neven-Spence, Sir B

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

  Nicholson, G.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Herbert, Sir A. P.

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  York, C.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Hogg, Hon. Q

  Nutting, Anthony

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Sir Arthur Young and Mr. Studholme.

  Resolution to be reported tomorrow.

  ESTIMATES
  Select Committee appointed to examine such of the Estimates presented to this House as may seem fit to the Committee, and to suggest the form in which the Estimates shall be presented for examination, and to report what, if any, economies consistent with the policy implied in those Estimates may be effected therein.
  To consist of Thirty-six Members: Mr. Arthur Allen, Mr. Alexander Anderson, Mr. Barton, Mr. Nigel Birch, Mr. Champion, Mr. Geoffrey Cooper, Mr.
  522
  Corlett, Viscountess Davidson, Mr. Edward Davies, Mr. Walter Fletcher, Sir Ralph Glyn, Viscount Hinchingbrooke, Mr. H. D. Hughes, Wing Commander Hulbert, Mr. Kirby, Mr. John Lewis, Mr. Kenneth Lindsay, Mr. Selwyn Lloyd, Mr. Low, Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth, Sir Peter Macdonald, Mr. Niall Macpherson, Mrs. Leah Manning, Mr. Manninsham-Buller, Mr. Parkin, Mr. Thomas Reid, Mr. Wilfrid Roberts, Mr. William Ross, Mr. Scott-Elliot, Mr. Norman Smith. Mr. Sparks, Mr. William Wells, Mr. West, Mr. Frederick Willey, Mr. Willis and Mr. Yates.
  Seven to be the Quorum: Power to send for persons, papers and records; to

  523
  sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; to adjourn from place to place; and to report from time to time:
  Power to appoint Sub-Committees and to refer to such Sub-Committees any of the matters referred to the Committee.
  Three to be the Quorum of every such Sub-Committee: Every such Sub-Committee to have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; and to adjourn from place to place.
  Power to report from time to time Minutes of Evidence taken before SubCommittees.—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Pearson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-two Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.

GERMANY
  War Criminals (Extradition)
  War Criminals (Extradition)
  Ruhr Industries (Trusteeship Scheme)
  Ruhr Industries (Trusteeship Scheme)
  No. 6 Civilian Internment Camp
  No. 6 Civilian Internment Camp
ARMED FORCES
  Released Men (Clothing Coupons)
  Released Men (Clothing Coupons)
  Uniforms (Purchase Tax)
  Uniforms (Purchase Tax)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Pork and Bacon
  Pork and Bacon
  Feedingstuffs
  Feedingstuffs
  Fish Meal
  Fish Meal
  Sweets
  Sweets
  Pigs (Slaughter)
  Pigs (Slaughter)
  Tea Ration
  Tea Ration
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Co-operative Societies (Sugar Allocation)
  Co-operative Societies (Sugar Allocation)
  Milk Distribution
  Milk Distribution
  Sugar (Home Preserving)
  Sugar (Home Preserving)
  Meat (Germany)
  Meat (Germany)
  Coffee Exports
  Coffee Exports
  Offal Allocations
  Offal Allocations
  SOAP SUPPLIES (NEWPORT)
  SOAP SUPPLIES (NEWPORT)
  JAMAICA (UNEMPLOYMENT)
  JAMAICA (UNEMPLOYMENT)
MALAYA
  Rubber Exports (Russia)
  Rubber Exports (Russia)
  Ambush (Batang-Padang District)
  Ambush (Batang-Padang District)
  Tin Ore (Export Duties)
  Tin Ore (Export Duties)
CYPRUS
  Soil Bearing Tests
  Soil Bearing Tests
  Law and Order (Breaches)
  Law and Order (Breaches)
  Political Meetings (Permits)
  Political Meetings (Permits)
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Technical Training Courses
  Technical Training Courses
  Africans in Industry
  Africans in Industry
  GAMBIA (PIG AND POULTRY PRODUCTION)
  GAMBIA (PIG AND POULTRY PRODUCTION)
  HONG KONG (CHINESE REFUGEES)
  HONG KONG (CHINESE REFUGEES)
  WEST AFRICA (RICE AND CEREALS PRODUCTION)
  WEST AFRICA (RICE AND CEREALS PRODUCTION)
ROYAL NAVY
  Former Personnel (Recall)
  Former Personnel (Recall)
  Ships (Suspended Construction)
  Ships (Suspended Construction)
POST OFFICE
  Mails, Aden
  Mails, Aden
  Newspaper Rates, East Africa
  Newspaper Rates, East Africa
  Technicians
  Technicians
  Engineering and Stores Grades (Wage Claim)
  Engineering and Stores Grades (Wage Claim)
  Wages
  Wages
  Telephone Service
  Telephone Service
  Postal Packets (inspection)
  Postal Packets (inspection)
  Facilities, Melton
  Facilities, Melton
  German Field-Marshals (Hansard)
  German Field-Marshals (Hansard)
BRITISH ARMY
  Requisitioned Houses, Germany
  Requisitioned Houses, Germany
  Paratroopers (German Document)
  Paratroopers (German Document)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (OVERLAPPING BENEFITS)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (OVERLAPPING BENEFITS)
  HEARING AIDS, DERBYSHIRE
  HEARING AIDS, DERBYSHIRE
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  CIVIL AIR LINE OPERATIONS INQUIRY
  2.35 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg to ask the first question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The question was as follows:
  To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will publish the findings of the inquiry into certain aspects of civil air line operations conducted by Lord Douglas of Kirtleside, or a summary thereof.]
  THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, the answer is in the negative. When I invited my noble friend Lord Douglas of Kirtleside to carry out an investigation into certain parts of the Civil Aviation Act, I informed him that it was not the intention that he should produce a report in a form suitable for publication. I am now considering his recommendations and other observations, and I hope to be able to make a further statement in the reasonably near future.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, can the Minister give the House an assurance that the statement which he hopes to make in the reasonably near future will cover those parts of the Civil Aviation Act which came under criticism, and concerning which Lord Douglas was asked to report?
  LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give an assurance to-day, but I will certainly bear in mind what the noble Lord has said.

  LIGHT AEROPLANE CLUBS
  2.37 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg to ask the second question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The question was as follows:
  To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware that many light
  414
  aeroplane clubs are threatened with cessation of operation through exhaustion of resources, and whether in view of their national importance some further measure of help can be granted to these clubs.]
  LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I fully appreciate the difficulties which light aeroplane clubs are encountering at the present time, and I sympathise strongly with their efforts to continue their activities. I have always been willing to give all possible help, other than by way of direct financial assistance, but very strong arguments are necessary to justify the grant of subsidies to the clubs, having regard to the present economic position of the country and the current restrictions on man-power and materials. However, I am glad to be able to tell your Lordships that the question is now being given further full and careful consideration. I may add that I visited the London Transport (Central Buses) Sports Association Flying Club as recently as yesterday, and I was greatly impressed by the spirit of enthusiasm which was evident there.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, arising out of the Minister's answer, which I am sure will put new heart into clubs of this kind, many of which are suffering difficulties owing to the serious financial position in which they find themselves—a position now deteriorating—may I ask whether if this question is put down again in, say, four weeks' time, the Minister would then be able to give some reply?
  LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, I am not the financial dictator of this country. Therefore, I cannot give a promise of this kind. I will, however, undertake to do everything in my power to do as the noble Lord wishes.
  EARL HOWE: My Lords, are we to understand from the Minister's answer that he is favourably disposed towards this suggestion, or that he is not? We can well understand that there may be financial considerations which are against the granting of assistance. On the other hand, surely these light aeroplane clubs are going to provide us with reserve pilots who may be of extraordinary value in an emergency, as they were when the last emergency arose. It would be

  415
  some help to many of us who take an interest in these clubs if we could be told whether the Government are sympathetic to the idea which is suggested in Lord Balfour's question.
  LORD PAKENHAM: I agree entirely with some of the implications of the statements in the last part of the noble Earl's remarks. I am sure he will realise that I should get into serious trouble with the Chancellor of the Exchequer if I answered the first part of the question as directly as he would no doubt like me to do.

  ROYAL COMMISSION ON JUSTICES OF THE PEACE
  2.40 p.m.
  LORD CALVERLEY LORD CALVERLEY rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have studied the Report of the Royal Commission on Justices of the Peace; also whether they have come to any conclusions; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I put down the Motion which stands in my name partly in the form of a question, and in moving for Papers I do so in the hope that, with the help of your Lordships, we shall ensure that the Report of the Royal Commission on the administration of justice in magistrates' courts, will not be pigeon-holed and forgotten. In fact, we have good grounds for hoping that that will not happen, because His Majesty's Government have already shown that they have been studying the Report and that they propose to introduce a Bill during the present Session. I certainly did not expect the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor to devote a part of his holidays to an intensive study of the Report, but evidently he has done so. I am hoping that the debate this afternoon will prove a pleasant sequel to his arduous journeys of the past two or three days, and that it will result as successfully.
  My noble friend Lord Templewood, I am glad to say, is introducing a Motion of his own which specially mentions what is generally known as the Roche Report. Therefore, I propose to say very little on that, but will leave it to him and other speakers to enlarge upon the theme of what ought to be done to bring our magistrates' courts, and especially the
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  clerks of those courts, to an even higher state of efficiency than the not unworthy one to which they have already attained. I presume that I was appointed a member of this Commission because I am what is called a working magistrate. As a working magistrate, I have found that a truly learned clerk guides and does not dictate to the magistrates who sit upon the bench.
  I propose to say very little about Scotland; hardly anything at all in fact, because I am delighted to see that my colleague, the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, who knows so much about Scottish affairs, is going to speak in this debate. I would only point out to your Lordships that it was a great privilege for the Commission to visit the capital of Scotland, Edinburgh, to listen to the witnesses, instead of inviting the witnesses to come down to London to see us. We had an instructive week and it seemed to us who, to our shame, knew not Scotland, that it was a liberal education. In passing—and this I trust will not be out of order—I would say that I was struck by the feeling of remoteness from affairs in Scotland. I hope that our proposals will bring us closer together so far as the administration of justice is concerned; and may I add that I hope to live to see the day when Scotland will have a Parliament of its own?
  One of the matters dealt with in the Report is the training of justices of the peace and the holding of examinations. The average person has an aversion to examinations, but certainly a justice of the peace needs training before he takes an active part in the administration of justice. In the court where I sit, we have a golden rule that a new magistrate should sit for six months in silence among his experienced colleagues before playing an active part. I think that is a most salutary rule and is far better than some of the suggestions which were made to us; as, for example, that we should get hold of some tome on the law and study it. I consider that the amateur lawyer is a greater menace to society than the quack doctor. I listened with interest and respectful attention to the leading witness of the Bar Council, who frankly admitted that a barrister studies for a long time—he did not mention anything about the eating of dinners, but I presume student barristers do eat—and went on to

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  express the opinion that a barrister learns his business in court, on the anvil of experience. We should certainly have books of reference, and we should have simple rules of conduct. I think the average magistrate who sits regularly would wish me to express our gratitude to the present Lord Chief Justice for the advice he gives us by his rulings, which we greatly appreciate. Even a High Court Judge is fortified by Archbold, and we are guarded by Stone's Justices' Manual. I noticed that one very gifted lawyer who adorns this House, when his daughter, equally gifted in other directions, was made a magistrate, presented her with Stone's Justices' Manual instead of Mrs. Beeton's Cookery Book—and I hope she enjoyed it.
  When we were appointed as justices of the peace, we appreciated that it was a great honour; we now realise it is a great responsibility. The Lord Chancellors who brought into being what is called the Supplemental List, which was also discussed by the Royal Commission, did a great service in allowing a magistrate who was growing old to be put upon that list and retired with honour, instead of being dismissed. I presume that in future, as a result of the recommendations of the Royal Commission, we shall use the Supplemental List more than we have done in the past.
  I should also like to refer to the subject of visiting justices which is mentioned in the Report. As a rule, these justices meet ten times a year, and the weekly rota of prison visits is something, I think, not possessed by any other country,. When a visiting justice must visit a prison every week, and any prisoner has the right to speak, without equivocation or mental reservation, it is a great service. During the war, when there were depleted services in our prisons (and they are still over-crowded), the co-operation of the visiting justice did much to preserve morale in our prisons. This fact is mentioned in the Report, and I refer to it now because we recommend that the Home Office should instruct those courts of summary jurisdiction which still do not pay the railway fare of the visiting magistrates to do so. I insist, as a matter of principle, on being paid my shilling when I go—so far, I have not been surcharged! A woman comes from Scarborough, and pays third-class fare of 18s. 9d. That is wrong.
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  There should be no question of anybody appointed by his fellow magistrates not being able to fulfil his duty because he is unable to pay the fare. I trust that this will be brought to the notice of the Home Office as a sadly needed reform.
  I now come to the vexed question of the advisory committees. I believe it was Lord Loreburn, Lord Chancellor from December, 1905, for some years, who appointed the James Royal Commission; and the James Royal Commission, I am told, reported in favour of advisory committees. Lord Loreburn refused to appoint a large number of justices (in those days, it meant that they were taken from the Liberal Party), or to pack the benches, or out-balance the benches which were packed in another direction. He was quite right. The advisory committees appointed by him, and succeeding Chancellors, have done a great public service. I believe that when they were first appointed it was from the two Parties, Conservative and Liberal; to-day they are appointed from the three Parties. I want to say, quite frankly, that I disagree with those people who criticise the advisory committees because some people on the advisory committees are politicians, or members of a Party. It is not a vice but a virtue to belong to a Party and to take an active part in politics.
  It has been shown that on balance the presence of such people on public bodies, and the work which they perform, is an asset and not a liability to the community. I trust that the present Lord Chancellor, and his successors, will not take notice of the so-called independents who want to be appointed, or who desire to have someone of their own liking appointed on the advisory committees. As a result of the work of Lord Chancellors of the past forty odd years we have a cross-section of the community: we have tinkers, tailors, soldiers, sailors, rich men and poor men—and very few thieves. I have never found political bias while I have been a magistrate, and I am seldom concerned about the politics of the colleagues who sit with me. I am certain that that can be said of all your Lordships who have the honour to be justices of the peace. So these independents have no real grievance.
  If I were asked to define what is an independent, I would quote the definition of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton—that

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  an independent is a Conservative who refuses to pay subscription to his Party, but who expects Conservative support when there is an election in order to keep the Labour Party out. Sometimes the independent is a disgruntled person, with a bias against his own colleagues, if he has left his Party; but that is by the way. Where the Lord Chancellor can find such a person, man or woman, I suggest that he or she should be a member of the advisory committee, in addition to the men and women who are appointed at the present time. I say quite confidently that in the main, over the course of years, the advisory committees have been a success. In passing, I would criticise one advisory committee. If the Duke of Wellington were here this afternoon, I would pity him from my heart in having to preside over the congregation of forty-two persons who constitute the advisory committee of the County of London. I say no more on that, because I notice my noble friend Lord Fortescue is taking part in the debate, and he will be able to tell the County Hall, and also the County of London, how to manage their affairs in a better way.
  I believe we have slipped up in our Report—we were thinking of the counties—in stating that clerks of the peace should be the secretaries to the county advisory committee. I suggest that in boroughs where there is an advisory committee, the full-time clerk to the justices is the proper person to act as secretary. I wish to say very little on the question of juvenile courts. They are included in the Report, but they are a comparative innovation. They have been successful in fulfilling a most difficult rôle in England and Wales. I would comment only on the matter of ages, and particularly the ages of the chairmen or chairwomen. The spokesman for Scotland, a chief constable, on being asked what type of person he preferred as a chairman of a juvenile court, said: "I prefer a grand-dad to a daddy." In my own town we had a very good chairman, who was a good granddad and chairman at the age of ninety. I would accept Mr. Churchill himself, who is proud to be a grand-dad, as chairman of a juvenile court, instead of Leader of the Opposition. That would be better for the Labour Party—but that is by the way.
  The Bar Council advised us to appoint fifty stipendiaries in the country districts to go round every few months to take the chair. What is going to happen amongst the lay magistrates who have any degree of self-respect when the Grand Inquisitor comes along to take the chair? He will not be very welcome. Also, I do not think we can find fifty stipendiaries. Notwithstanding that, we recommend that solicitors may now be appointed as stipendiary magistrates. We appoint stipendiaries to sit alone, except on matrimonial cases. It is well to remember that, in England and Wales, there are only sixteen stipendiaries, and there is a reason why that it so. The Lord Chancellor, in his wisdom, has told the lay magistrates not to "clock on," as we say in the factory; but he certainly told us that we have to sign on to show that we have put in our regular attendances. The lay magistrates sign on, but the stipendiaries are exempt.
  I asked the Home Office if they could give instructions to stipendiaries, but I was told that stipendiaries were, to put it mildly, a law unto themselves, and that they could do almost as they liked so long as they behaved themselves. I respectfully urge upon His Majesty's Government that stipendiaries should be put on exactly the same level as the twenty-six Metropolitan magistrates, both with regard to salaries—some of the stipendiaries are underpaid—and with regard to pensions. I believe that, out of the sixteen stipendiaries, there are only two who can and will be able to claim a pension after serving for twenty or more years. That should be put right, and these stipendiaries—for some of whom I have the greatest regard—should have a suitable pension from the Treasury in the same way as the Metropolitan magistrates.
  We also recommend that the Lord Chancellor, instead of the Home Office, should appoint stipendiaries, and I think that recommendation should be considered. We mentioned the County Palatine of Lancashire, which receives much of its revenues from Yorkshire. I am sorry, personally, that the magistrates in the County Palatine were not appointed by the Lord Chancellor. I think that should be done; but, being a Yorkshireman, I do not want to stir up the Battle of Roses once more, and I leave it like that.
  I want to say sincerely that all the Lord Chancellors of this country during the past forty years have built upon sure foundations. I have noticed what you would call a silent revolution taking place during the period that I have been a magistrate—more courtesy and more consideration, especially for the accused, if that accused is not represented by counsel. I believe that, since the First Great War, the magistrates and the justices of the peace of this country have performed a great and noble task in preserving the morale of the nation, and that the community owes a great debt of gratitude to the Lord Chancellors who have brought about this change during the past forty years. Our gratitude is also due to their understaffed departments which have given magnificent help to succeeding Lord Chancellors. The edifice—I say this without being too complacent—is sound and it is also secure. Perhaps it is not ornate—certainly the average bench of magistrates has not the charm of a coterie of film stars. But the average bench, by its character, inspires confidence rather than mistrust, and it is only the wrong-doer who need be afraid.
  I would also like to say what great work the Chairman of this Commission has performed, in bringing together eighteen men and women and making them into a team of colleagues, working together for the public good. I pay my tribute to that Chairman and to those who supported him. I maintain that the administration of justice in our courts has done much in the past, especially during the war years, to make this country the most stable in Europe, and, by comparison, the most law-abiding. The lay magistrate has been the symbol of justice; and he has, indeed, been the keeper of the peace. You can surely call the lay magistrates of this country the great unpaid. I beg to move for Papers.
  3.8 p.m.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD had given Notice of a Motion to call attention to the Reports of the Royal Commission on Justices of the Peace and the Departmental Committee on Justices' Clerks; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, there was a time when a debate upon the lay magistracy would have involved this or another place in a bitter controversy. I am old enough
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  to remember the years in which a question such as we are discussing this afternoon excited acute Party disagreement. It is satisfactory to think that to-day there are no Party issues between us, and that we are all unanimous in thanking the noble Lord, Lord du Parcq, and his Commission for a very valuable Report in which it is interesting to note that, after the fullest possible inquiries, they have substantiated the case for lay magistrates.
  In the past, as I say, very different opinions were held by people. Even among the great Judges there was a difference of opinion. I have here, for instance, an observation by Lord Chief Justice Coke:
  "The whole Christian world hath not the like office of justice of the peace if duly executed."
  On the other hand, the Lord Chancellor, Lord Cowper, describes them as
  "Men sometimes illiterate and frequently bigoted and prejudiced."
  We have now passed from those days of extreme opinions and we are here not to discuss questions of principle—for I do not think they would divide us—but rather questions of detail.
  I am one of those who, both as a magistrate and also as Home Secretary, have always taken the view that one of the great advantages of a lay magistracy (I say this as one who is not a lawyer) is that it keeps the lawyers out of a particularly intimate field of the national life. I have also taken the view that, in the kind of cases that are dealt with in courts of summary jurisdiction, it is an excellent thing to have more than one judge. Just as in the higher courts a jury is a help to the Judge, so in the courts of summary jurisdiction, dealing with intimate matters in the lives of the people, it is a great advantage to have a bench of magistrates; and, that being so, I have always preferred a bench of lay magistrates to the single stipendiary. Now, taking the view that the lay magistracy has been thoroughly justified by the Report of the Commission, I ask myself how it can be further improved and how its members can be made more up-to-date with the growingly complex needs of the community. If the lay magistracy is to continue, it must first of all be wisely selected; it must, secondly, be reasonably trained; and,

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  thirdly, it must be efficiently organised. Let me say a word or two about each of these three requirements.
  I begin with the question of selection. Noble Lords know very well how the selection is made. The advisory committees of the counties and the boroughs propose names to the Lord Chancellor, and the Lord Chancellor nominates the magistrates. On the whole, this system of selection has justified itself. At the same time, I think that experience since the Royal Commission of 1910, shows that it contains certain definite defects. I do not attempt to generalise over the whole country. I know very well that one county committee differs from another. In certain counties the present system may work perfectly, but I can only say that that is not universal. I am quite sure that in certain counties and boroughs the advisory committees and their secretary are not sufficiently aware of the needs of particular benches. I will return to that point in a minute. I think also that in certain areas it is not sufficiently realised that the secretary of an advisory committee is a very important official. The time is long past when he can be simply a part-time clerk in the office of the Lord Lieutenant. He has now become a key official in the organisation of the lay magistracy. It should be his business to keep in touch with the benches, to know of their collective needs, to know the individual qualities of the magistrates upon them, and to advise the committees as to the needs of the counties and of the boroughs.
  My first point therefore—and it is a point which has been well made by the Royal Commission—is that in future the secretary of the advisory committees should be an official of standing, that his name should be known, that the address of his office should be known, and that the job should be regarded, at least in many cases, as practically a whole-time job. Without an official of this kind, I think it will be increasingly difficult, both for the advisory committees and for the Lord Chancellor, to know about the particular individuals, men and women, who are suitable for appointment as magistrates.
  There is a further question concerning the advisory committees. Should the names of their members be made public?
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  At the present time they are treated, officially at any rate, as confidential. Here again, I do not wish to generalise or to suggest that in certain cases the system has not worked well. I am quite sure, however, that there are other cases in which this spurious secrecy—if I may use the expression, for as a rule the names of the members are known—has worked very badly. I have in mind, as one who was for more than thirty years a London Member of Parliament, the case of the London Advisory Committee. The Royal Commission criticised it in very strong language; and I think I may say that my experience gave me cause to support their criticisms. A case like that makes me think that it would be much better to end this spurious secrecy, and let the people in the area know who are the men and women advising the Lord Chancellor. If, as we hope they will be, they are men and women of standing, all the greater weight will be given to their recommendations. If they are not suitable, as I imagine may be found to be the case in an advisory committee such as there is in London, public opinion will be brought to bear on the advisory committee. I am fully aware that the case against publicity is that it opens the door to lobbying; but I am very much afraid that a very great deal of lobbying goes on already. If there is to be lobbying, it had better be above board, rather than beneath the surface, and left very much in the hands of political agents. I would therefore urge upon your Lordships that the time has come to abandon this meretricious secrecy and to let the whole world know who are the men and women on the advisory committees.
  Now we come to an even more difficult question: the question as to how far, if at all, politics should enter into the appointment of members of advisory committees and into the constitution of the individual benches. I am not so foolish as to say that because a man or a woman is a politician, a member of, one or other of political Parties, he or she should be debarred either from being a member of an advisory committee or from being appointed to the bench. I do say, however, that political affiliations should not be made a condition either of membership of the advisory committee or of membership of a particular bench. Whilst I think we all

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  agree with a general principle of that kind in theory, in actual practice it is not being carried into effect. What is happening now is that the attempt is made to keep a balance of Parties upon the advisory committees and upon the various benches. Thirty years ago it may have been very necessary to adopt a practice of this kind. It so happened in my early days in another place that the majority of the members of benches were Conservatives. It was due to the antiquated system of qualifications, without which nobody who had not substantial property could be made a magistrate. But that state of affairs no longer exists. The Commission have shown clearly that in actual practice the benches as now constituted maintain a very substantial balance between the various Parties. Now that we have reached this balance, I say, that the time has come when we could clearly insist that in future men and women should be appointed to advisory committees and to benches only upon their general qualifications as citizens of judgment and standing, and that Party considerations should not enter into it at all.
  I pass from this very important question of selection to my next requirement—namely, organisation. As we all know, the lay magistracy, like practically everything in the country, has grown up empirically. On the whole, it has worked well, but the time has now come, with the greater complexity of its duties anti the heavier responsibilities placed upon it, when it needs a better organisation than it at present possesses. Let me suggest to noble Lords one or two improvements developed in the Report of the Commission that I very strongly support. If I may say so, I think the time has come (I say this with due deference in the presence of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor; it is no aspersion upon the administration of his duties) when the Lord Chancellor's office should be better organised. The duties connected with the magistracy have become both more important and more difficult. That being so, I think the time has come when this part of his office ought to be regarded as an important Department of State, with an official secretary of status appointed to it and having at its disposal the fullest possible information about the magistrates in the country.
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  If I have correctly read the Report of the Royal Commission, it seems that one of their difficulties, at any rate in their initial discussions, was to obtain the kind of information that they needed about the various benches of magistrates. It did not appear to be readily available. Now that we are contemplating legislation on the subject and bringing the organisation up to date, I think the Lord Chancellor's Department ought to have the necessary staff and information, using as its liaison officers the secretaries of the advisory committees in the counties and the boroughs.
  There is another improvement that I should like to see adopted. This is a local improvement. The duties of a bench have now become so important and also so complicated that. I am sure the time has come for each bench to have its duly appointed chairman. I know that in many cases benches do appoint their chairmen for a substantial period of time. However, there are other cases of which I myself know where it is a rather haphazard arrangement, where the senior magistrate, it may be, takes the chair, or where somebody is appointed for a short time and somebody else shortly afterwards. I think that the time has now come when each bench should be required, preferably by secret ballot, to elect its chairman. I consider that the election should be for a period of years.
  My next point has reference to procedure. I welcome the proposal of the Royal Commission which contemplates the issue of rules for magistrates courts. I have never been able to understand why, when there are rules for procedure in higher courts, there has not been a code of rules for magistrates courts. Very often in the course of the debates in this House upon the Criminal Justice Bill I could not help thinking that a great many of the details which took up so much of our time in the discussions here might much better have been dealt with in a body of rules. Therefore, I hope that, when the Lord Chancellor comes to introduce his Bill—a Bill that is contemplated in the King's Speech—for carrying out the recommendations of the Royal Commission, he will institute a body of rules upon the same general lines as I understand are in use in the higher courts.
  So much for organisation. I come to my last point, the question of training.

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  That question greatly interests me, as Chairman of the Magistrates' Association, with its membership of many thousands of magistrates. The Royal Commission recommend that all new magistrates should undertake to receive a course of training. The question immediately arises: Who is to give this training? I should be sorry to see the training, organised by the Lord Chancellor's office or the Home Office, not for any want of confidence in the Ministers who are at the head of those Departments, but because I think that it is a bad thing for the Executive to interfere in the training of the Judicature. Therefore, if the Government are not to organise the training of the magistrates, the question arises as to how they should get this training. On the whole, I think that the recommendations of the Royal Commission in this respect are sound. They recommend, so far as I understand them, that there should be local training; that the Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, for instance, and local bodies of magistrates, should be encouraged to organise training for the new magistrates.
  That is all right so far as it goes, but I feel, very definitely, that some system of central training will also be necessary. We, in the Magistrates' Association, have made a beginning. We have been organising correspondence classes for new magistrates in which many hundreds of magistrates already take part. We have been organising conferences in the country that have been very well attended, and we have had week-ends at colleges, like Ashridge. I have been much interested to notice the keenness of the new magistrates, particularly the younger men and women, who are only too anxious to receive training of this kind. I think the wisest line to adopt is a combination of local and central training, and, so far as the central training is concerned, to have conferences, and so on, with correspondence classes organised by some such body as the Magistrates' Association, and with the great possible stimulus put upon the local magistrates' committees and the magistrates of Quarter Sessions to organise local facilities.
  But something further is still needed. Although, as I say, I should object to the Government actually undertaking training of this kind, I think they should encourage
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  it in every possible way. What I have in mind is this. I think they should arrange for and give grants to local libraries to which the more important books upon penal questions could be sent. I think, also, that any magistrate who wishes for Government papers connected with his or her work should receive them gratis, as your Lordships and I receive Parliamentary papers. I think also that if a library were started centrally in London with books and papers of this kind, it would be essentially a case for a Government grant. By these means I believe that we could help to be better instructed and better informed an excellent body of people who, more and more every year, are taking their work extremely seriously. I hope that when the Lord Chancellor comes to reply, and still more when he introduces the contemplated Bill into this House, he will take account of the points I have ventured to make and those that many other noble Lords will no doubt make to-day, and that we shall take the opportunity during this Session of really helping an excellent body of men and women.
  3.35 p.m.
  VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, I should like, if it is not too impertinent, to compliment the Lord Chancellor upon his selection of this Commission, and also to pay a tribute to my noble friend Lord du Parcq for the admirably diplomatic way in which he has brought his team into a more or less uniform line. I think there is little to be said against the Report. The thorny question is that of the advisory committee. On the whole, I think it is better to have an advisory committee than to leave the recommendation of magistrates purely to Lord Lieutenants, of whom I see several in the House to-day. Lord Lieutenants used rather to belong to one Party, though whether they will continue to do so in the future I do not know. However, the advisory committee method has not worked too badly. There could, of course, be a committee made up of farmers, traders, labouring folk and landowners (if there are any left), who would form a different sort of committee, but I do not think it would be very much better. If the advisory committee get together and make recommendations which on the whole are satisfactory, I do not see that there can be much wrong with the

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  system. I have no doubt that the Lord Chancellor's office has other sources of information in regard to that matter and I do not propose to say anything more about it.
  As regards the composition of benches —I speak now in regard to the benches with which I have been associated—I think the tendency is to have rather too many magistrates sitting. I remember an instance, which I think was in London, when there were thirty magistrates on the Bench and only six cases. That looks rather top heavy. Five or six justices on a bench are probably enough. If the delinquent comes in and sees twenty or thirty people on the bench, it tends to put him off his balance. In my experience as a magistrate (which goes back forty years) magistrates have greatly improved, in care and industry and in their own standards. They were not always what they are now. My noble friend has quoted a Lord Chancellor who talked about illiteracy. I can remember an occasion a long time ago when we were compiling a jury list, and we came across the name "Mary Jones, spinster." The chairman said, "That is wrong; that must be amended to 'spinsteress,' as she is a female."
  I confess that I am entirely in favour of the appointment of a permanent chairman. He should be a man whose faculties are alert; and not only should they be alert but they should appear to be alert. It is no good having a man who is suffering from paralysis agitans. I have sat under several deaf chairmen and one blind chairman. The blind chairman did his job quite well, but it did not make a good impression when he looked the wrong way as a witness was giving evidence, or when the clerk had to come and guide his hand when he signed papers. But deafness is, of course, worse. People know when they are blind, but they do not know when they are deaf. It is not easy to get rid of a chairman—though it is far, far harder to get rid of a clerk. For that reason I would be in favour of the ballot system. Very often a junior magistrate who has been a year or two on the bench does not like to vote against a man who has been in the chair a long time; but if there is a ballot that difficulty can be overcome.
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  Then there arises the question of age. We all know that you may have a very good magistrate at eighty and a very bad magistrate at fifty. It is impossible to lay down a rule, but it is probably better that a magistrate should be "like Caesar's wife." It is a bad thing for the culprit—or the defendant, as he is generally called nowadays—to be able to say, "That old man ought not to be able to judge me." As everyone knows, however, the difficulty is that we cannot get young people to go on the bench; they have other things, probably more remunerative, to do. To get young people of the age of thirty—I believe my noble friend was appointed a magistrate when he was in the twenties—is difficult.
  I should like to say a word about Quarter Sessions. I seldom go to Quarter Sessions. One finds there a lawyer chairman who knows his job, and a bench of twenty or thirty magistrates. They have nothing to do except to give their opinion when the question of sentence comes along, because they do not take any part in the trial of the case. I have sat at Quarter Sessions alone with the chairman, and I am sure that that is much better than having about thirty people on the bench.
  The whole class of cases has altered greatly in the last thirty or forty years. One seldom gets cases of assault or poaching or bastardy nowadays. Such cases have become rare. Nearly all the cases are motoring cases. It was, I think, the late Lord Chief Justice, Lord Hewart, who said that of the cases which came before him in the Divisional Court, 80 per cent. were motoring cases. In all of them, he said, there were three constant qualities: the first was that both cars were stationary all the time; the second was that both cars sounded their horns all the time, and the third was that there was no accident.
  I am dead against the payment of magistrates. I think it would greatly impair their prestige. What would you pay them —£200 a year? That would be less than the police constable who appears before them receives. I am sure that payment of magistrates would damage their value greatly in the eyes of ordinary people. And I believe that ninety-nine magistrates out of at hundred would not want it. In the same way I am against stipendiaries. I think that the system

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  by which country people are judged by country people is the best. The people on the bench then know local conditions and they know the localities—both of which are important matters when you have to deal with roads. To bring in outsiders who perhaps have never the time or the opportunity to travel around would not be, in my view, any improvement.
  To what extent the recommendations that the Lord Chancellor or the Government wish to implement can be carried out by rule or by circular letter I do not know. It probably would be an effective method of doing it. Generally speaking, I think I have seldom read a Report of a Royal Commission (I have served as Secretary of three Royal Commissions, so I know something about their labours) which seemed to me more succinct, clearer or more important. I hope that the recommendations which have been made will go forward and will be adopted.
  3.44 p.m.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, when my noble friend Lord Calverley, who was a colleague of mine on the Royal Commission, told me that he was going to bring forward this Motion he said that he would not in any way touch upon Scotland. Therefore, I do not propose, in the few words which I shall address to your Lordships, to touch upon England, except to say, if I may do so at the start, a word with regard to the advisory committees, which of course are common to both countries. I feel that I must join issue with my noble friend Lord Templewood on the question of the secrecy of those committees. We were, I think, unanimously in favour of the secretary's name being published so that anyone who wished to put forward names could do so to the secretary. But I think that if the names of the actual members of the advisory committee were made public there would be so much lobbying as a result that you would get very few responsible and worth-while people to sit on these committees. The noble Viscount said that in some places there was not much secrecy about who were on these committees. That was not what we gathered from the evidence that was put before the Royal Commission. I am glad to
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  hear my noble friend Lord Calverley say "hear hear" in corroboration of that, and I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord du Parcq, will bear me out when I say that it appeared, on the whole, that the names of the people on the advisory committees were absolutely unknown in the districts. I must also say that I do not agree with the noble Viscount's use of the adjective meretricious. I do not think that it is quite the one which I should have used had I been in the place of the noble Viscount. I have not had an opportunity of looking up the word in a dictionary since he spoke, but from my recollection of its derivation and meaning I should have thought that it was the last adjective to be used in that connection.
  I would now like to say a word or two on the Scottish aspect of this matter. First let me say that originally the Scots did not want justices of the peace; they were forced upon us. They were brought into Scotland by an Act of 1587, but they fell into desuetude and, in fact, after the Union of the Parliaments in 1707, another Act had to be brought in emphasising the fact that they should be employed in Scotland. The justice of the peace does not belong in Scotland, as he does in England, to the traditional hierarchy of judicial officers, and he has never played in Scottish life the important rôle which he plays in England. In fact his judicial functions in Scotland have, in practice, always been limited, and apart from routine work, such as the witnessing of documents, have been very small indeed. May I say—I would rather like to read it standing as I am in front of a very learned Bench—that petty offences in Scottish burghs are usually dealt with by the bailies, not by the justices. Except in the annual licensing courts, where 50 per cent. of the members are justices, there is no great call on the time of justices for official duties. As I have said before, except for witnessing signatures, justices—certainly in a great number of counties—are not very much employed. There is nothing in Scotland corresponding to the criminal jurisdiction of the Courts of Quarter Session in England and Wales. The jurisdiction in Scotland is entirely limited to the trial of offences on summary complaint, and there are further statutory limitations on this jurisdiction.

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  But there is also another court which can deal with nearly ail those cases—the sheriff court. There is a very strong and cogent reason why these cases are dealt with by the sheriff court and not in the court of the justices of the peace. The cost of the sheriff courts are met by the Government; the expense of the justice of the peace courts fall on the county funds. Therefore, as your Lordships can imagine, we in Scotland prefer the country, rather than the counties, to pay the expenses of our courts. We have at the present time some 6,000 J.P.S in Scotland, and compared with our population in relation to the population of England and Wales you will doubtless say that that seems to be too many. But it must be remembered that in certain places in Scotland people live in very remote areas, and cannot be reached very easily. People in Scotland—just as I dare say they do in England—prefer to have their documents witnessed by J.P.s, rather than by hankers or whoever else has the power to witness signatures. And in the far distant counties, probably far more justices of the peace are required than are thought necessary per head of population in England. On the other hand, I must admit that in some of the burghs and cities there are too many. I think that has largely been due to the fact that the names have been submitted, roughly speaking, every three years. The Royal Commission have recommended that the list in all counties and burghs should be revised annually, and I hope that this suggestion will be accepted. I think that will have the effect of reducing the number of people who are made justices of the peace at any one time.
  I should like to say a word on what we regarded as one of the most important recommendations of the Royal Commission—namely, who was to be responsible for justices of the peace in Scotland. There were three possibilities: first of all, that the authority should be delegated to the Lord Advocate General. When the Lord Advocate General gave evidence before the Royal Commission, he pointed out that it would be improper for the holder of this office to be responsible, partly because he is not a Minister of the Crown responsible to Parliament and partly because he exercises judicial control over justices of the peace. As that was the legal ruling of the Lord Advocate General himself, it obviously rules him
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  out. The second possibility was that names should be the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Scotland. I am the last person in the world to desire not to render to Scotland the things that are Scottish, and if I thought there was any justification for the Secretary of State being the individual to recommend justices of the peace, I would say so. It seems to me, however, that we must have someone more remote from politics than the Secretary of State.
  It is all very well to say that the Lord Chancellorship is a political appointment. That may be, but so long as the Lord Chancellor is to occupy the Woolsack, and so long as he is to be head of the law in this country—I again speak with respect—I take it that politics have nothing whatever to do with his appointment. If the Secretary of State for Scotland appointed justices of the peace, undoubtedly he would be bombarded right and left for political appointments. Therefore, we agreed, and agreed unanimously, that the Lord Chancellor should remain the person to recommend and appoint justices of the peace. But I hope, f the noble and learned Viscount will not mind my saying so, he will agree with me when I say that his office is grossly under-staffed; and we in Scotland live in a part of the country very remote from London. I do not know whether legislation is required for this, but I would suggest that the Lord Chancellor, while still being the responsible Minister, will consider setting up a central advisory committee in Scotland, with a Secretary of Commissions resident there, so that he can have advice from those conversant with the problems on the spot and knowing the people who are considered for appointment in Scotland. I hope very much that the noble and learned Viscount will agree with what I have said.
  I should like to say only one further thing before I sit down. I wish to thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord du Parcq, not only for his ability in conducting the Royal Commission but also in particular for his courtesy in bringing the Royal Commission to Edinburgh so that the Scottish witnesses could be heard there. It was a courtesy very much appreciated by those up North. I believe it was the first occasion on which a Royal Commission had left London on a tour

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  of this kind, and I sincerely hope that it will not be the last.
  3.55 p.m.
  LORD ROCHE: My Lords, your Lordships will have gathered from previous speakers that I was Chairman of one of the bodies which are the subject of this debate—namely, the Departmental Committee on Justices' Clerks. Without criticising people who take a different view, I regard it as no part of the duty of the author of a Report or a Chairman of a Committee which reports to advocate, whether in season or out of season, the adoption of the recommendations of that Report. At the same time, it is possible that my reflections, mainly on the Report of the Royal Commission, and which I will give your Lordships very briefly, may be of some assistance to the House.
  The first topic is the question of lay justices, as opposed to professional stipendiaries. Lord Beaconsfield once said in a controversy that it was a question between the apes and the angels, and he was on the side of the angels. I will not say which side is ape and which is angel in this controversy, but I am wholeheartedly in favour of lay justices. That preference is based on an experience of sitting with justices for seventeen years and of sitting as chairman of an Appeal Committee in Quarter Sessions for some twelve or thirteen years. I do not base my preference solely upon the consideration that there are not enough barristers to go round, but on my conviction that on questions of fact, which form the largest number of cases before justices, a body of five laymen—the number I prefer to sit with—is a much better judge than a single stipendiary. I am not criticising the stipendiaries of the Metropolis, who are picked men. However, the problem of the supply of barristers does come into the question. It is my opinion, broadly speaking, that laymen on such a body are better judges than professionals.
  That conclusion is accentuated when I reflect that the Bar is a very small one, of about 2,000 practising barristers, who have to carry on advocacy and also supply a large number of County Court Judges and magistrates; and what is left, as your Lordships know, would not be of the best. If a single Judge is not the
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  best judge of fact—and often I have reflected that the jury was more right than I would have been—still less are what is left of the lawyers good judges, and I have found that second and third and fourth rate lawyers are the worst judges of all. Therefore, I was profoundly relieved that the Royal Commission, with singular unanimity, came to this conclusion. I am sorry that my noble friend, Lord Merthyr, for whom I have the most profound respect and affection, was of a contrary view, and I could not help thinking that he had a very unfortunate experience in his part of the world which is not at all universal.
  If that is the best tribunal, it is essential that justices should be competently advised, and that is why perhaps the Departmental Committee over which I had the honour to preside is of some importance. These bodies are at present advised by clerks and I hope they always will be. It is very important that these clerks should be of the best. Generally they are very competent and very good, but your Lordships will not be surprised to learn that some are better than others and some are not really good at all.
  Where does that most commonly happen, and why does it happen? It happens because the appointment of clerks as advisers of the benches rests with the particular petty sessional division. Those of your Lordships who have read the works of Scott, and other works, will know that clerks like Mr. Jobson, and others, were appointed by the individual justice. Nowadays, however, they are appointed by the individual petty sessional division. The gist of the Report of the Committee over which I presided was that that was too narrow a basis for appointment. Obviously, a poor bench are very likely to appoint a poor clerk; at all events, benches are much too inclined to appoint their own particular local fancy, without regard at all to the question whether it would not be better to appoint someone else, who could be a clerk to several bodies of justices. In other words, there will never be an extension of the whole-time clerk system, which is very desirable (your Lordships will note that I say "extension," because I do not regard the system as capable of universal application, still less of immediate application; but an extension

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  is highly desirable) without a wider appointing body.
  The recommendation of the majority of the Committee (all, I think, except my noble friend Lord Schuster and the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr) is that this should be done on a county basis, through a county committee based upon a combination of the petty sessions and Quarter Sessions. I need not trouble your Lordships with the details. At all events, it was a much wider basis. My noble friend Lord Schuster, and the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, wanted the appointment to rest with the Lord Chancellor. With the infinite respect that I have for all Lord Chancellors, and particularly for the present occupant of the Woolsack, I think that is a job which is beyond him, because of local conditions, and he would not have the knowledge and authority which a really representative committee on a local basis would have. I am a wholehearted supporter of the maintenance of local administration, because I think it is the very bulwark of the freedom of this country.
  There is one thing that I think is important for the retention of good clerks—namely, the question of their remuneration. A substantial part of the Report of the Departmental Committee dealt with the question of finance. I am the more free to commend that section of the Report to the respectful attention of the powers that are going to legislate, because I left that part of the Report very much to persons more mathematically qualified than myself. I confess that I had little to do with it, though I wholeheartedly approve of it. The gist of the matter is that fines and fees, which provide the revenue of the courts, are at present going to a great diversity of bodies, and little is going to the people who have to pay for the administration of justice. A great deal goes to the Exchequer. The recommendation is that all fines and fees should go to the Exchequer—so as to prevent any suggestion that magistrates are fining largely in order to get revenue—and that the Exchequer should pay the expenses of administration up to the total of the amount received, which would probably pay for the administration of the courts. On the recommendation of the Committee, only if there is an excess of expenditure would that be borne, half by the Exchequer and half by the local
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  authority. That I believe to be a wise recommendation, and I hope, at any rate, that it will receive careful consideration.
  There is the point—an important point, no doubt, but a technical one—as to who should audit. However, I do not think it is necessary to discuss it here this afternoon. I cannot more wholeheartedly agree than I do with what has been said about many matters, such as having a rule committee, and making proper arrangements for the election of a chairman, and I will not pursue those topics. I will conclude with a word about the very vexed question of politics. It is very difficult to say anything concrete about that subject, because it is not really a question for legislation; it is a question of the prerogative of the Crown and the discretion of the Lord Chancellor. He must pay just as much, or as little, attention to politics as he thinks fit. We all agree, I believe, that you should not, when you get to the bench, have politics there.
  But may I just put my own view? I think the effect of the Royal Commission's majority finding is that politics still have too much to do with it; that what they have to do with it ought to be diminished: that their influence is mischievous; but that politics cannot altogether be got rid of as, at any rate, a cross-reference as to whether the proper mixture and combination of people is being obtained. I do not find much fault with that finding. The case against politics might have been put a little more strongly, because there is no doubt that in some counties the system of political quotas is still a great mischief, and, by appointing porportionally Labour, Liberal and Conservative, some people go on the bench under the mistaken conviction that they represent their Party. I have found that in my experience. I remember one gentleman, who was a justice of the peace, but very mixed up with the activities of his wife. He wrote to me on the point and signed himself "Yours fraternally." It is quite obvious that he had not got rid of his political notions when he entered upon his duties.
  Nevertheless, I would not go so far, perhaps, as the three gentlemen who signed the Minority Report, who said that politics ought not to have anything to do with the matter. That seems to me to be a little too strong. Politics may be needed to ascertain whether you are getting a

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  proper cross-section of society upon your bench. It is said by some people that that cannot be obtained without asking what are a man's politics. I demur to that entirely. Speaking for myself, I like to see manual workers represented on the bench, and if I were told in a country district that so and so was a blacksmith, or a carpenter, I should not want to ask —I should desire not to ask—what his politics were. That is my view of the distinction. Speaking for myself, I hope that politics will have less and less to do with advisory committees, and that appointments to the bench, and fitness for office, may have everything to do with it. I am not so sure that I am in such raptures as the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, about the lay magistracy, although I regard it as a good, time-honoured and beneficial institution, and better than any that can be substituted for it.
  4.10 p.m.
  VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this debate but probably I have been a justice of the peace longer than any member of your Lordships' House, having been appointed sixty years ago, on my twenty-first birthday. I want only to say how thoroughly I agree with what has just fallen from my noble friend Lord Roche, as to the desirability, in the light of my own experience, of discounting politics as much as possible, at least in the rural districts. I may say, incidentally, that I do not know to what political Party the majority of my colleagues on the local bench belong, but I do know from my own experience that certain people have in the past been appointed to the commission of the peace, having quite obviously joined a certain political Party with the object of that appointment ultimately coming their way. The instructions to the advisory committee say that care must be taken to see that there are persons in the commission representive of various sections of the community. I would like strongly to endorse that particular recommendation.
  I myself have long been on the supplemental list, and in recent years, in my own semi-industrial area, there are people—one in particular was the manager of the tinplate works in my parish—of great repute who could not be recommended to the bench because there was no vacancy. Yet
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  in that district the magistrates who were on the local list had left, and were not available. One of them, indeed, I am sorry to say, had committed a very serious offence which resulted in his leaving the neighbourhood altogether. Such a situation does not make for a strong bench. If it were possible, discounting politics altogether, to make a big effort in every area to see that all the leading interests—particularly the trade and industrial interests—are represented, as well as the working population, I think it would approach nearer to an ideal bench than exists at this time. I particularly hope that when it comes to trying juvenile cases, care will be taken that no one sits as chairman of the bench unless his moral character is beyond all doubt.
  The only other thing I wish to say arises out of the Report of the noble Lord, Lord Roche. I see that it is recommended that the superannuation age of clerks to the justices should in future be seventy-two. My own impression is that on many country benches the clerk would be more fittingly superannuated than a good many of those who sit as justices and who receive his direction and advice as to what course they should take. I do not know what steps can be taken to-day in the case of a clerk who is obviously no longer fit to carry out his duties, which require a robust mind and clear utterance. But I would like to see care taken that at any rate those who are no longer physically and mentally fit to act as clerks to the justices no longer remain in that position. I, for my part, if I may say so as an old stager, most heartily endorse the Royal Commission's Report, and hope that it will be implemented.
  4.14 p.m.
  LORD SCHUSTER: My Lords, I do not think that in the course of the last thirty-four years we have on any occasion had a debate on this subject, and it is probably not desirable that we should more than occasionally discuss this subject here. The higher courts in this country are, quite rightly, kept as far as possible from discussion in Parliament, and it would be disastrous if the lay magistrates' courts were frequently talked of here. But occasions do arise when we must take stock, and this is one of them.
  We have before us two Reports of very great value and very great impor

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  tance. I hope your Lordships will pardon me if I find it difficult to compress all that I have to say into a reasonable compass, though I will do my best to do so. On the Report of the noble Lord, Lord du Parcq, I will confess that at first I personally felt a slight disappointment that His Majesty's Government, instead of proceeding to put into legislative force the proposals of Lord Roche's Committee, or such of them as they approved, should have set up this further Commission to discuss the questions of the courts at large. That feeling of disappointment has been proved to be wholly unjustified and unbased, and I am extremely sorry that I have ever entertained it. We have here what we have never had before, or have not had for many years—a reasoned justification of the lay magistrate which I hope will stand for many years. It would be very wrong, in this or in any other matter, to rest complacent on that which we find in existence. It is equally wrong to try to pull to pieces something which, on the whole, is working well. We have here, from the noble and learned Lord, Lord du Parcq, and from his impartial and learned colleagues—learned not so much in the law as in the general affairs of the world—definite justification of the system as it is, subject to the proposals which they make for its improvement. Therefore, I heartily agree with almost everything which the Commission have said, and I hope I shall not be misunderstood if I speak now of the things with which I disagree.
  First, I want to say a word on what the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, has already said about Scotland. Wicked, imprudent, rash, foolish and temerarious as it may be for your Sovereign to venture, even in spirit, across the Tweed, I venture to remind you that it has for long been a matter of discussion and debate whether it was desirable that Scottish justices of the peace should be appointed by the Lord Chancellor in London. As your Lordships will have already gathered from what has been said, there is much to be said on both sides of the question. I start off with what I believe to be the sound rule that Scottish affairs are best dealt with in Scotland by Scotsmen—and that for many reasons. In the first place, I think that a Scottish authority, dealing with them in Scotland, is likely to deal with them better than
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  any kind of authority dealing with them in England. In the second place, I am quite sure that such an authority is far more likely to command the confidence of his fellow countrymen. On the other hand, of course, one cannot but look with sorrow at the severing, in any sort of sense, of what is said to be the one link which causes the Lord Chancellor to continue in office under the title of Lord Chancellor of Great Britain. And, incidentally, I would say that it is not the sole link. The most important function which the Lord Chancellor discharges in relation to Scotland is that he may preside in a Scottish appeal in this House. He is familiar—and if he is not familiar to start with, he is taught to be so—with the peculiarities of Scottish Law, and he learns a community of feeling with the great Scottish lawyers who sit with him. I do not think he gains any advantage; indeed, I think he suffers many disadvantages in being troubled with Scottish affairs and the appointment of local justices of the peace.
  In those circumstances, as your Lordships are aware, the Royal Commission have recommended a halfway house. They have recommended that the Scottish justices should continue to be appointed by the Lord Chancellor—but by the Lord Chancellor assisted by a Scottish staff who, so far as I can make out, are to sit in Edinburgh. I do not want to use violent language, but I must say that I think that is making the worst of all possible worlds. The reason why I think it desirable, apart from the maxim which I have already mentioned, that Scottish justices should be appointed by one authority and English and Welsh justices by another, is that the functions of the justices in Scotland, as has already been pointed out, are wholly different from those of the justices of England. It follows from that that there is in Scotland a wholly different view in the public mind of the qualifications which should be sought in justices.
  For as many years as I can remember, we in England—in spite of what has been said here this afternoon—have been getting away from the idea that appointment as justice of the peace is a reward for political services, or is in any sense concerned with politics. In Scotland, I do not think that has ever been suggested. In Scotland, for the most part, and cer

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  tainly in the two great cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow, the persons recommended for appointment by the Lord Provost on his retirement form a kind of Honours Roll—the very thing we do not want to have anything to do with in England, so far as the appointment of justices is concerned. I do not envisage with any pleasure the idea of the Lord Chancellor conducting two wholly different systems "under one hat." He chooses his justices in England, so far as he possibly can, with a complete disregard for political or personal considerations, or for any idea of giving honours or such things. In Scotland he has to do the opposite; and I do not think any Minister, without great embarrassment to himself, can operate two such systems together.
  The other point which I want to criticise, and upon which I differ from the findings of the Royal Commission, is one which your Lordships may think almost too trivial to mention. I cannot forbear mentioning it, however, because it connects up with something which the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood has said. The Commission recommended that there should be kept in the Lord Chancellor's office a card index, kept continually up to date, of all magistrates in England and Wales, and also, presumably, in Scotland. That seems to me to be another instance of the modern idea that, if you want to get anything well done, you must collect as many officials as you can and get them to write on as many bits of paper as can be found for the purpose as much useless information as can be devised. There is no reason whatever why the Lord Chancellor's department should want to know—and it is hardly desirable that they should want to know—where all the justices of the peace are distributed, or anything of the kind. Such a record would be a pure waste of time and labour at a period when labour and time are very valuable.
  It is necessary only to know roughly how many justices of the peace there are. Every now and then—not every day or every week, but perhaps every two or three years—the local authority in a county (I do not use the words "local authority" technically; I mean the authority responsible locally for making recommendations) could submit to the Lord Chancellor's office a list of the
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  persons recommended for appointment. The Clerk of the Lieutenancy—and in spite of what has been said, most Clerks of the Lieutenancy are good—puts forward a statement of the petty sessional divisions to which the persons are to be appointed and on which they are to serve. He ought to put forward, and sometimes does, a statement of the number of active magistrates who are at present available in those particular petty sessional divisions. That is all that anybody wants to know, and there is no reason at all for keeping a continuous list; that is merely a desire for organisation.
  That brings me to another point. (I am sorry that the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, is not here, because I am going to say something very nasty about him.) I have referred to the intense desire for organisation. It has been stated, and said again by the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, that the Lord Chancellor's office is greatly understaffed. It is not merely understaffed, owing to a great many causes which it would be too tiresome to relate here: it is understaffed to the extent that it cannot do its duty effectively. It is exceedingly desirable that the Lord Chancellor's office, above all offices of the Crown, should not lose its personal touch with the people of the country. The officer in charge of commissions in this matter of appointing justices should be, as far as possible, a person known to every Lord Lieutenant in the country; and the permanent secretary, who is less responsible for these matters, should at least be on terms with them. To multiply clerks and machines in matters where what is really required is personality is the way to destroy the whole of the success which has slowly been built up. Anybody who has held my position would indeed be foolish if, in looking back over the years, he thought that everything had been done perfectly, right up to the time of his leaving office. That is far from the view that I entertain about either my performance or my office.
  That brings me to what I ought to have been talking about—namely, the proposals made by the noble Lord, Lord Roche. Throughout the petty sessional divisions in the counties, and also in the small boroughs, the clerk was underpaid and, as we all thought, was remunerated on a wrong system. He was paid, and is still paid, in certain places at any rate,

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  an inclusive salary—a very small one too small for the duties he is called upon to discharge. Out of this he has to pay his clerks and the office expenses. It is obvious that that is not the way to pay a clerk and it is not the way in which we can hope to obtain a proper service of magistrates' clerks. In those circumstances, we were all agreed that, so far as possible, there should be substituted for the present rather haphazard system a regular service of clerks throughout the country.
  In the view of the majority of the Committee, however, it should be an integrated service, and not all one service, and the clerks should have proper salaries, separate from those of the people employed under them. Moreover, sufficient money should be allotted to them to enable them to provide the books which are necessary for the justices if they wish to discharge their duties properly, and to pay for postage so that they can send to the justices documents coming from the centre which the justices should have in their possession. I do not think that anybody is going to argue about those points, when the evidence before the Committee has been read and the Report has been read, or that there will be any division of opinion as to the general desirability of doing that. There was a difference among us, as a result of which, if the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, had still been in England when we presented our Report, so far as I can gather from what he did write, he and I would probably have presented a Minority Report—and for this reason. I do not think that it is possible to organise such a service as I have described unless it is all one service.
  I think you must be able to give to the clerk, when you take him into such a service for what will probably be his whole life, the hope of promotion elsewhere to some bigger court if he proves worthy of it. I think there must be, in particular, a power to move clerks from place to place, and to fit the right man in the right place—more or less, if I may take an analogy, on the lines which prevail in the service, entirely directed from the Lord Chancellor's office, of registrars and clerks in the county courts. Although I personally—I am sorry to be so personal in my remarks—am passionately a local authority man, and
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  not a central authority man (in every case where I possibly could, I would throw the weight on to the country, and take it away from the centre), in this case, I am convinced that the system which we propose cannot prevail unless it is run from the centre. I believe that to be so, not only for the reason that I have already given—that I do not think we shall secure a proper service of magistrates' clerks unless it is an integrated service in which everyone has a hope and, so to speak, a field marshal's baton in his knapsack—but also for one of the essential purposes which the Committee had in view. We were all satisfied—and I do not think it would be difficult to satisfy your Lordships, if there were tine—that there must be a great rearrangement of the petty sessional divisions, in which many of the smaller towns will certainly lose their separate clerks of the peace.
  It is ridiculous, for instance, that in the town and county which the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and I know best, the petty sessional courts for the petty sessional division should sit once every month, and another court for the town in which they meet should also sit once a month, and that each court should have before it on each occasion about three persons charged, or three cases arising in the juvenile court. If those two courts were amalgamated, nobody would be turned off the bench. The persons from the borough would be appointed just as they are now. It would bring about concentration. It would save an enormous waste of time, and if the town were a little bigger than it is, there would be raised a substantial sum out of which a proper salary for the clerk could be provided. I have deliberately taken the case which my noble friend and I know best, because it happens that both the clerks—for there are separate clerks for the county and for the borough—are excellent men, who know their job extremely well and in whom we all have absolute trust. In addition, they happen to be popular. But they also happen to be remunerated at a rate which would surprise your Lordships. I should very much doubt whether either of them puts £5 in his pocket when expenses have been paid. That is not the way it should be done.

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  If there is to be a reorganisation of that nature, if, as the Committee recommend, the petty sessional boroughs of 25,000 are to lose their commission and are to be absorbed into the counties, I am sure that it can only be done gradually from the centre. It cannot be done all at once without doing grave injustice to many people. When the county courts were taken over by the Lord Chancellor's department, and the registrars (who at that time were mostly part-time officials) became full-time officials, the matter was spread over a space of years, so that a bench should not be rudely turned out of offices in which they expected, quite rightly, to spend their lives. General convenience should be met and justice generally done all round.
  This business of dealing with the petty sessional divisions in the boroughs will be much longer and far more difficult than we imagine. There are many of them with which to deal, there is much more to be considered, a great many more prejudices—although I do not think they really are prejudices—and a great many more local sets of feeling to be considered and conciliated. Therefore, I think it is a long job. It cannot be done in a month, in a year or in ten years. I am sure it can be done, if it is to be done, only gradually, from a centre, and from a centre where those who conduct the business of the centre are generally sympathetic to each of these local feelings as they come, one by one, to be considered. Those at the centre must not act hastily or roughly but, having that goal in view, must press on to it, knowing that life may be short and that organisations of this sort take a very long time to build.
  I am afraid that I have rather overstepped what I ought to have said, for these questions of organisation are not very interesting, except to those people who have passed their lives in dealing with them and who can think of nothing else. I want to pass on for one moment to one or two observations of my noble friend, Lord Templewood, now that he has returned to the Chamber. I shall not detain your Lordships long. Like the noble Earl who sits behind me, I was really shocked at my noble friend's language. He was brought up in a classical academy and surely he must at some time
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  or another have met the word "meretrix" and the adjective derived from it. It is not one which I should have thought would fall from his lips. I think his criticism can actually be applied to any advisory committee or any member of any advisory committee. I think we should just disregard it. As for spurious secrecy, I have no doubt that there are persons who, having given their word that they will not give away secrets, most improperly still give them away. There are wicked men and corrupt men in every walk of life, and in every political Party; and no doubt that happens.
  But very substantially the names are kept secret; substantially the committees work in secret and, objectionable as I agree secrecy is in almost every aspect of public life, I am completely satisfied that secrecy is absolutely necessary here if the independence of these bodies is to be preserved. It is a matter which does not come up now for the first time. It cannot be supposed that successive Lord Chancellors for the last thirty years have not thought about it and have not been plagued by it. They must have asked: "Is it right that secrecy should be preserved? Can it be preserved?" I feel that that long line of Lord Chancellors have, one by one, each gaining experience as he went through the affairs of his office, reached this conclusion and stood by this principle. I greatly hope that we shall not deviate from it now. These bodies are the Lord Chancellor's bodies. They are bodies to which the Lord Chancellor, on his own responsibility and not on that of anyone else, appoints and from which—and this is a very important matter in this regard—he at his own instance and of his own motion removes members. If their names are publicly placarded, if they are to be public persons so that every appointment will be canvassed, so that every time it becomes, for whatever reason, desirable to ask Mr. Somebody or Miss Something-Else to retire from the committee—if all that is going to be in public discussion, the whole system of the advisory committees cracks and breaks. Therefore, I greatly hope that on that point the words which fell from my noble friend—and, if I may say so, every word he says I always respect—will not have effect in action.
  On this matter of politics, I cannot remember exactly what phrase he used,

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  but he said something like this: that in 1913, 1914, or 1915, or whenever it was, it was necessary to have regard to political considerations because, owing to the long period of office of successive Conservative Governments, the benches were overcrowded with Conservatives. I do not deny that; but what I do deny is that the necessity has passed. He does not seem to remember or realise that in these last years—and I hope I shall not be interpreted here as saying anything which is in any sense political—a new Party has sprung up, of which no account could be taken when Lord Lore-burn appointed his Commission or when Lord Buckmaster began to act upon its recommendations. Like any other Party, the Labour Party have, of course, continually pressed, just as the Liberal Party pressed before 1911 or 1912, that they should receive what they call "adequate representation" on the benches. With great respect to the Labour Party and indeed to other Parties, I utterly abhor the word "representation." There is no question of any creed or religion or Party on the benches. But that there should be Labour people who hold the Labour faith on the bench appears to be at least as desirable in the year 1948 as it was necessary that there should be persons holding the Liberal faith on the bench in 1912 or 1913.
  It seems to me quite impossible to say that a man's politics will be disregarded. You must discover what they are. If you do not, you will find, as actually occurs in certain places in England, that one Party, still puts forward a purely Labour list, or a purely Conservative list, or a purely Liberal list. You might just as well say that you must not find out whether the person put forward is a man or a woman, as to say that you must not find out his or her political views. It must be done, and you cannot get away from it. I do not know what Lord Chancellors say when they are alone, but what they always say to their permanent secretaries is, I believe, that appointments must be made fairly; that there must be a proper, not representation, but collocation of persons in the locality on the bench, whatever their political views, whatever religious faith they hold, and whatever peculiarities they may have.
  From the point of view of the Conservatives—and at the moment I speak as a
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  Conservative—this is also a matter of great importance. Nothing can possibly be worse than that it should be supposed (as is sometimes represented to be true) that one political or one social class holds the monopoly on the bench. It is no good merely saying, "I know the man is a blacksmith; therefore I put him on the bench." There may be plenty of people who are not blacksmiths and whose views are not so apparent merely from looking at their profession. Therefore I most strongly agree with what the Commission say and what I think has been said this afternoon—that no one should ever be put upon the bench for political services, and that on the bench itself there should never be a division on political grounds. To exclude politics from the Lord Chancellor's consideration of the lists which are put before him, however, is an impossibility, and if it were a possibility it would be an evil thing. I fear I have spoken for too long and too vehemently, and I am afraid I have actually contradicted my noble friend, Lord Temple-wood—contradicted him as much as I think is good for him in one afternoon.
  4.45 p.m.
  LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I should like at the outset of my remarks, if it is not thought to be an impertinence, to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord du Parcq, and his three noble colleagues whom I see in the House, on their extremely able and interesting Report. I read it from cover to cover, I have gained great instruction from it and I found it not at all heavy reading, but exceedingly interesting from beginning to end. We are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, and to my noble friend, Lord Templewood, for bringing this Motion forward to-day. My noble friend, Lord Templewood, has spoken with a great record behind him of many years in high office, including a long period at the Home Office. The few remarks that I make to-day will be in a very humble capacity—that of chairman of a bench in a very rural part of England. My bench, I take it, is typical of many hundreds in the Kingdom. It will be of interest to four Lordships to know that we work in two rotas, one of which is presided over by myself and the other by ray noble friend, Lord Royden, who I am sorry to see is not here to-day. There are ten of us on the active list and

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  two on the supplemental list. I think we form a very fair cross-section of the population—namely, landowners, farmers, and tradesmen of the only town in the district.
  It may be objected by some noble Lords (and not only noble Lords opposite) that we have no representative of that very important branch, the agricultural workers, on our bench. That is so at present, but the sole reason is that up to now there has not been found anybody from that important section who is willing and suitable to be on the bench. When he is found, I shall be the first to welcome him and to send his name forward to the clerk of the peace for eventual appointment by the Lord Chancellor to the bench. As regards the question of politics, of which a good deal has been said this afternoon, I frankly confess that we are a Tory bench; we are all Conservatives except one, who is a Liberal. That is not our fault, the reason being that we are what I think noble Lords opposite would call a "black area," in the same way as we should regard Merthyr Tydfil or Pontypool as black areas.
  We are told in the gracious Speech that legislation is to be introduced to implement the findings of the Royal Commission on Justices of the Peace. While we do not know what are the Government's intentions, I venture to hope that they are not going to try to do too much. May I turn to the recommendations of the Commission contained in paragraphs 347 to 358 of the Report? I may say at once that I am in thorough agreement with the recommendation that justices of the peace should receive instruction in their duties. That was touched on, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, and also by my noble friend below me. If we could have short courses under schemes drawn up by Quarter Sessions, I think it would be quite a useful thing. New magistrates appointed to my bench have often asked me how they are to find out about their duties, and I think that a scheme of this kind would be exceedingly welcome. I also agree with the recommendation that there should be laid down in whatever Bill is introduced exactly what justices on the supplemental list may or may not do. At present I find there is a great deal of uncertainty in regard to this question, as is stated in paragraph 102 of the Report.
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  I am also thoroughly in agreement with paragraph 352, which recommends that the election of the chairman of a bench should be by ballot. I go through the ceremony of appointment at the beginning of every year and have done now for about ten years. I am invariably elected chairman of the bench. I suppose that, possibly, my colleagues think that I am the best man for the job—but I do not know. I think this method has great disadvantages. It is very often, I think, owing to that rather pleasing and very English trait in our national character of not liking to hurt people's feelings that the same appointment is so often made year after year. I believe it would be far better in every way if the appointment were made by ballot. We should have no objection at all to the election of a chairman being countersigned by the clerk of the peace, on behalf of the advisory committee.
  I am not at all in favour of a statutory retiring age for justices of the peace. I consider that to retire a man just because he happens to be seventy-five years of age is a great mistake, and I cannot help thinking that it would be much better if power regarding retirement were given to the advisory committee. It would, of course, be done through their clerk. They would keep in touch with benches so that they would know what justices had not put in proper attendances and were not fit for their jobs. Then, whatever their ages, whether sixty or seventy or seventy-five, the clerk could write to them and suggest that they retire and go on to the supplementary list. If they did not do so, then there should be power to remove them. In most cases I think the suggestion would be quite sufficient. My objection extends to the removal of justices from the juvenile panel at the age of sixty-five. The idea that persons who are old (and, after all, whatever age we may be, we are really much younger now than our fathers were at that age) do not deal with juveniles so effectively or so sympathetically as younger persons, is, to my mind, quite wrong. I confess that on my own juvenile panel we are all over fifty; two of us are over sixty and one, myself, over sixty-five. In spite of that, I think we deal quite efficiently with the cases of juveniles that come before us. Certainly I have never heard parents complain. Therefore, I totally disagree with that part of the Report.

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  Now I would like to turn to the very interesting Minority Report of my noble friend, Lord Merthyr. And may I say how sorry I am that he is not here to-day. I was especially interested in paragraphs 19 to 28 in his Report. My noble friend certainly is not at all nebulous in what he puts forward; the reader is left in no doubt as to what he wants. He has no use for any of us, and he wants to replace the whole lot of us by stipendiaries. Whatever legislation is proposed, I do hope that His Majesty's Government will not entertain the idea of doing anything on those lines. In spite of what my noble friend says in paragraph 21, I believe that, to start with, it would be very difficult and would take a great many years (certainly many more years than he says) to get a sufficient number of barristers to fill the vacancies on the benches, even though the benches were grouped, which I believe is the idea. I am afraid that it would mean that, until a happier day arrived, many courts would be presided over by people who were not exactly first-class exponents of their profession. I do not think the noble and learned Lords who are present to-day will mind my saying that I take it that in their profession there are good barristers and bad barristers, just as there are good and bad in other professions. So I am afraid that it would come about that some of the courts would be presided over by second-rate people.
  I am aware of the case of Northern Ireland which has been quoted by my noble friend in that connection. I would have liked to remind him, had he been present in the House, that Irishmen, whether they are from Northern Ireland or from Eire, are intensely conservative. In Northern Ireland, by the Act of 1935 they merely reverted to the old system which obtained before 1922, of the resident magistrate, generally known as the "R.M.," who, as I well remember in the days before 1922, used always to preside at petty sessional courts in a county, though in those days he was also assisted by the local justices of the peace.
  I have made the points which I wished to make and I will not detain your Lordships longer. I just desire to say, without being in the least complacent or self-satisfied, that I believe that my own bench and benches like it—of which there
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  are many hundreds in the country—on the whole do their job well and give satisfaction. I hope that His Majesty's Government, in their wisdom, will not entirely upset the present system, a system which perhaps, if not quite logical, is peculiarly English, gives, as a rule, satisfaction to the local inhabitants and works, on the whole, very well.
  4.58 p.m.
  EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, like the previous speaker, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord du Parcq, and all the other members of the Commission on the Report which they have produced, and to say that, generally speaking, I am in favour of it. I have been a Lord Lieutenant of Devon for fourteen years so I should know by now a certain amount about procedure with regard to the appointment of justices. In Devon, we have three advisory committees. We have over 260 justices of the peace, besides those on the supplemental list, and there are thirty petty sessional benches. This shows that a large number of people have to be found to serve in the county of Devon. There is only one point which I wish to make this afternoon, and that is in regard to the appointment of chairmen and deputy-chairmen of benches. This is a matter which is referred to in paragraphs 173 to 178 of the Report. In spite of the many letters that have been sent out, there are in my county, and in many others also, I believe, several benches which have no permanent chairman or vice-chairman. I think your Lordships will agree that, for obvious reasons, that is very bad. Certainly, it is a very bad system indeed not to have one, and I think that the sooner it is stopped the better. Imagine what would happen if on all boards of directors the different members took the chair in turn. It just would not work.
  That brings me to another reason why I think there should be a permanent chairman. According to paragraphs 117 and 136 of the Report, various duties are to be given both to the Lord Lieutenant and to the chairman, and there must be a certain amount of correspondence between the two. If there is no chairman, it means that the Lord Lieutenant or his secretary must correspond with the clerk of the justices, which, I am sure, is not always desirable, and the sooner that system is stopped the better. In a

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  big county like mine, which is roughly seventy-five miles north to south and the same east to west, it is quite impossible for me, or for any other Lord Lieutenant, to know personally all the justices, and there must be a certain amount of work done by correspondence. I would mention, as an example, that this correspondence often has to take place about ladies and gentlemen who are deaf. The point has already been mentioned that, for some reason, people who are deaf never think they are deaf, and unless that matter is brought home to them they will go on sitting on the bench. That means correspondence between the Lord Lieutenant and the chairman of the bench in order that he can ascertain the whole truth, so that he can bring home to the gentleman concerned that he should go on the supplemental list or retire altogether.
  I hope the recommendations of the Royal Commission in regard to permanent chairmen and deputy-chairmen will be carried out, and I would ask His Majesty's Government when they are going to carry them out. I should like to make one more brief point. I entirely support what is said in the Report, that the appointment of justices of the peace should not be made as an honour or as a reward for political services, and that the appointment should be made only on merit.
  5.2 p.m.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, the last Royal Commission on Justices of the Peace sat in 1910, and now, thirty-eight years later, we find that another Royal Commission propose no great sweeping changes. That is equivalent to saying that the system as a whole has worked well, and may be expected to work well in future, if the recommendations which are made here are carried out. I want to draw attention to a gap in this Report which I think ought to be filled. If your Lordships will look at paragraphs 128 and 147, you will see that the position of such people as grocers, chemists, and members of co-operative societies and, in paragraph 147, licensees and pawnbrokers, is dealt with. There is a definite recommendation that although people may occupy positions like these, it should not be a bar to their becoming licensing justices.
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  In my view, the Royal Commission, without going beyond their terms of reference, might have taken a further step, and considered the position of many justices of the peace who, like myself, are the owners, but not the licensees, of public-houses in the licensing division in which they sit. I have taken the highest possible legal opinion on this matter and it is this: that no case of this kind has yet been before the Divisional Court and, therefore, no opinion can be given: that a justice should not adjudicate on any matter regarding a public-house which he owns, but that he can adjudicate in any matter regarding any other public-house in the licensing division in which he sits. I think this is a very common-sense view, and I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor to say something about this when he replies. I hope he will be able to say that when legislation is introduced this matter will not be forgotten. If he does, he will be doing two good things. He will be clarifying what has been until now a very obscure position for a large number of justices, and he may be saving the time of the Divisional Court at some future date; and, as we know, the Divisional Courts are extremely busy with matters far graver than this.
  I saw in the Press to-day another reason from another angle why this matter should be borne in mind. It was stated in The Times that when the Government bring in legislation regarding State-owned public-houses, they are going to have the licences confirmed, not as they are now by a committee of magistrates, but by the whole of the Quarter Sessions. Perhaps this may be a good thing; there will be more people considering this matter than before. But as a result of this widening of the sphere, there will inevitably be more justices who may be affected in this way. For all these reasons, I hope that this matter may not be forgotten. In conclusion, I would like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord du Parcq, and his fellow Commissioners on their Report. I express the hope that the Government will see fit to carry out, by means of legislation, their main recommendations.
  5.8 p.m.
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, I rise to say only a few words. My noble friend the Earl of Rosebery, himself a

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  member of the Royal Commission, has explained the part of the Report which relates to Scotland. I should like to welcome these provisions. I welcome the Report which for the first time has focused the position in Scotland, which undoubtedly is different from that which obtains in England. In regard to recommendation for the appointment of justices of the peace, there is a considerable feeling in Scotland that the Secretary of State for Scotland should be the Minister to recommend such appointments. Many appointments lie in his hands at the present time, and there is no doubt a certain measure of feeling that he should make these appointments also. I think that the considerations urged in the Report weigh very heavily towards leaving the appointments in the hands of the Lord Chancellor; and I would agree with these recommendations. But, as is pointed out in the Report, there is a certain remoteness in Scotland and it is desirable that the Lord Chancellor's staff should be strengthened for such recommendations. The Report recommends that he should have a Scottish official of high standing, supported by a central advisory committee. I presume that these appointments would be made by the Lord Chancellor, in consultation with the Secretary of State for Scotland, and this would ensure that the Secretary of State's advice would carry weight in this matter. In the circumstances, I believe that this proposal is a wise one.
  I disagree entirely with the view of the noble Lord who signed the Minority Report, that there should be no more justices in Scotland. I disagree for a number of reasons, but most particularly from the point of view of juvenile courts. In Scotland, the work of the juvenile courts has not yet extended as it has in England. There are four courts, and more are coming, as I know.
  LORD CALVERLEY: There are four juvenile courts only.
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: There are four courts, but it is a work which is extending rapidly. I know that the matter has been considered by the justices with a view to extending this work, and it is very desirable that it should be extended. I think the noble Lord will agree with me that Scotland is rather backward in this matter of juvenile courts. The remedy is not to abolish the justices, but rather to
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  hearten them in their work. I believe that juvenile court work is eminently suitable for the justices to undertake. I think the noble Lord will agree that the City of Aberdeen is a good example, and that good work is done where courts have been established. But there is room for much advancement and improvement in Scotland in the matter of juvenile courts. I therefore disagree profoundly with the view expressed by those who signed the Minority Report, that juvenile courts should be abolished. That is not the answer. The answer is to encourage them in the extension of their work, and to enlarge the number of juvenile courts in the country.
  5.21 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, before the Lord Chancellor replies to the debate I should like to be permitted to make a few observations bearing on some of the matters which have been discussed in this very informing debate this afternoon. I warmly concur with these who have said that my noble friend Lord du Parcel's Report is a most admirable document. So many people are tempted to pronounce their opinions on this sort of subject, without having the opportunity to consider all the arguments that ought to be weighed, that it is a great thing to have a document of this kind, which seems to me to put together the considerations, on the one side and the other, in perfectly Plain terms and, I am sure, greatly for the advantage of those who have to pronounce an opinion. The responsibility in this matter rests very heavily upon the shoulders of each Lord Chancellor in turn. This is an important part of his duties, which every Lord Chancellor treats very seriously, and it is to me a remarkable thing that the very limited staff which has hitherto been available to help the Lord Chancellor of the day has been able discharge its duties so well. It is perhaps better not to mention individual names, but those of us who have had this task on our shoulders can never be too grateful for the help given by just one or two people in this all-important department of the Lord Chancellors work. I am strongly of opinion that the Commission are right when they say that that department should be strengthened, and that the Lord Chancellor's staff in that part of his work should be enlarged.
  I will save time by stating, dogmatically, my own view on some of these

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  possibly somewhat controversial questions, rather than trying to argue them out, because we all want to hear the Lord Chancellor's reply, and no one wants to prolong the debate unnecessarily. I will take three or four of the points which have been discussed. First of all, there is the point in regard to the choice between our existing system of lay magistrates and the suggestion that it would be better to adopt a new system, where we should make a much extended use of professional and paid stipendiaries. I am clearly of opinion, with all respect to my noble friend Lord Merthyr (I am sorry that he is not here at the moment), that the right view is the view which the majority of the Commission have expressed.
  Your Lordships could hardly judge this without considering how fine a part is played in this country—and I believe only in this country, so far as Europe is concerned—by the system which has grown up. It essentially depends on this: that the day-by-day administration of justice, in simple cases not involving any very prolonged or severe punishment, can be effectively discharged by men and women of repute, regarded as good individuals and worthy citizens, who can be trusted to administer this very important function in the midst of their neighbours, and in respect of their neighbours. It is a source of great pride that we in this country are able to say that, on the whole, that is very well done. I am speaking for the moment of England. I do not doubt the goodness of it elsewhere, but it does not really operate in Scotland, as has already been explained. In England, we are entitled to say that our national character is such, the ordinary citizen's sense of balance and, above all, his sense of fair play, are such that no disturbing current of prejudice will alter the fair discharge of his duty of deciding, along with his colleagues, what the evidence proves, and what is the reasonable thing to do. I think we should lose something most precious if we once allowed ourselves to depart from that system.
  There is another system. It is not for us to criticise it, but it is a very different system. There is the system which prevails in France, for example. There, those who are devoting themselves to the practical administration of the law are
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  quickly divided into two classes. Some young men, from the very beginning, are aiming at a magistracy, in the first instance usually an extremely humble position. That ladder of advancement may lead them on, until they finish by being President of one of the great Tribunals that administer criminal justice in Paris and in other big towns. Side by side with those, but completely separate from them, are lawyers who hope to pursue the profession of advocacy. In France, however, it is not from that profession that are ultimately selected the great Judges. I think our system is a far better system, at any rate for us. Therefore, I very much hope that this consideration will weigh with my noble friend Lord Merthyr, and with those who have agreed with him. I have the greatest respect for his dispassionate view, but on this point I feel sure that the majority are right.
  That is one reason for my view. The other reason is this (I am now looking at it from the point of view of the Bar). I do not want to see the profession of the law in this country become an attraction to a young man who does not intend to enter into the ordinary practice of the profession and make himself an effective member of an honourable and highly important service, with the prospect, it may be, later in life of being invited to be a Judge. I would not like to hear a young man say: "No. I am going to be called to the Bar with a different idea in my mind. I will practise for a few years, with the object of getting one of those professional stipendiary appointments. It may not be a very big one, but perhaps I shall be promoted afterwards." I do not think that would be good for the profession, or good for the country. On these grounds I am clearly of opinion that we ought to rejoice in the fact that we have preserved, as we ought to preserve, the lay magistracy.
  The other point is one on which I have the misfortune not quite to agree with my noble friend Lord Templewood: Should the names of the members of the advisory committee, so far as possible, be kept secret and confidential? I agree with what my noble friend Lord Schuster has said; and he speaks with great experience. After all, these advisory committees are advising the Lord Chancellor. The responsibility for the appoint

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  ment rests fairly and squarely on the Lord Chancellor's shoulders—and on nobody else. I think my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack will confirm it when I say that, in his duty of making appointments, not merely of J.P.s but of many others, occasions frequently arise when the Lord Chancellor does confidentially consult somebody else—it may be a person who has held his office, or some other office which the Lord Chancellor regards as a qualification. It would be monstrous if he were able to do that only if he announced who was the person to be consulted. Equally, it would destroy the effective discharge of his very responsible duties.
  The Lord Chancellor has a formidable number of duties to perform in the way of nomination. These advisory committees are committees carrying out similar duties, and I should have said entirely as my noble friend Lord Schuster said, that we all respect the system. It may be said: "Well, leakages occur; cases can be quoted where in fact the name of one of these persons on an advisory committee has become known." It may even be, in some cases, that a political Party has pushed names. If so, it is a pity, because it is a breach of confidence. There is, however, a great deal of effective confidential information afforded to the Lord Chancellor at his request, and I should pity him, and the advisory committee, if ever it were finally decided that any body who had not been made a J.P. could point to a man and say: "That is the man on the advisory committee who has done me down." That I am sure would be wrong. Therefore, with every respect to my noble friend, I should prefer that we kept the names of these advisory committee members confidential.
  There is a further reason. It is most important that the Lord Chancellor of the day should be served, on every one of these advisory committees, with the best people who can be found. I doubt whether he would secure the services of the best men or women if, by accepting the nomination, they knew they would have to stand the racket of all the embarrassing attempts to canvass on behalf of this man or the other. In some cases I think, it would cause the best possible individual to decline this responsibility. That is the reflection that I make. I need not say that I attach the
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  greatest importance to the view which my noble friend has been led to form.
  Now we come to this question of politics. I have listened to the whole debate, apart for a few moments when I was away from the Chamber. On the whole, I think the noble Lord who has most accurately expressed my own feeling is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche. Of course, nobody should be appointed to discharge this judicial duty on the ground that he holds a particular political opinion. That goes without saying. Nobody who sits on a bench, and is there discharging the duties of a justice of the peace should ever discharge them merely from the point of view of his own political Party. But it is possible, I think, to call for a degree of aloofness in this matter which does not correspond with human nature or, at any rate, with political human nature in this country. There is a very well-known line by a Roman poet which I may conveniently translate by saying: "You may drive out nature with a pitch-fork, but she will come back again." If you attempt to shut the front door to any sort of political consideration, do you suppose you will have shut the back door? Of course not.
  There is a further consideration which I think has to be borne in mind. Something turns on remembering the history of this matter. My noble friend referred to it, and so did the noble Lord, Lord Schuster, although he is so youthful in spirit that I think he dated the matter about six years too late. The accurate story is this. In the year 1906 when, for the first time for some fifteen years, the Liberal Party swept into power, they found—and it was undoubtedly true—that in fact the benches, and especially the country benches, were to an overwhelming extent staffed by people who were Tories. It was partly due to the fact that up to that time there had been a property qualification. There were a certain number of gentlemen who, I think, would not have objected to being called Whigs who were, equally, justices of the peace. The first thing done in 1906, when I was first made a member of the Commons, was to pass an Act abolishing that property qualification. Parliament said that henceforward a man might be made a justice of the peace without any property qualification at all.

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  I do not think anybody disputes that to-day, and I do not think anybody disputed it then. Lord Loreburn, who had just become Lord Chancellor, and who was a pretty strong Radical, if ever there was one, was approached and put under the greatest possible pressure by a certain number of indignant supporters of the victorious Liberal Party, who said: "What sort of a list of J.P.s is this? There is not a bench in the country which is not completely over-weighted with Conservative members." Some of these gentlemen pressed upon the Lord Chancellor: "You must correct that at once, and you must create a number of Liberal justices of the peace" (the Labour Party at that time had hardly emerged) "in order to equalise things." Lord Loreburn, like the honest and sensible man he was, although he had been a responsible politician, said: "I will do nothing of the kind. I am not going to appoint people because of their political opinions." It was because of that situation that there was appointed the Royal Commission on which I sat, together with Mr. Arthur Henderson and the late Mr. Bridgeman, and which was presided over by Lord James of Hereford. It was that Commission which devised this proposal to set up advisory committees.
  I disclose no secrets when I tell your Lordships that the practice, so far as I have known it, has been this. It is not that the Lord Chancellor is calling for people of particular political persuasions; of course he is not. From time to time, he seeks the advice of his advisory committees, which he himself has appointed and which are responsible to him and to nobody else, and which give him confidential information. But when it comes to the question of deciding: "Is this a satisfactory list of J.P.s for this bench?" my impression is that one looks at the matter as a whole, having ascertained the reputations and qualifications of people. One then says to oneself, and I think the Lord Chancellor ought to say to himself: "Is this group of people a list which may fairly be expected, not only to do its duty but to give satisfaction to the neighbourhood?" It is no good being too much of a Simon Pure in this business.
  The Lord Chancellor has, to my knowledge, to consult most anxiously with the
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  Lord Lieutenant, and has sometimes to send for other members of the advisory committee, and he says: "I am sure these names are very good, but the list has a very lop-sided air. What we have to do is to have not only a body which will do justice, but a body which will make people feel that there is going to be a fair administration of justice by a proper cross-section of the community." Therefore, it is hardly necessary to emphasise the point that there never can be any question of appointing a man because of his politics: that would be monstrous. I assume that justices of the peace never allow their political attachments to influence their efforts to do what is just and right and to judge the facts as they are. It is a necessary element in deciding what is the proper composition of a Bench to ask oneself, "What will be the general make-up of this body—a body which we desire to be a fair specimen of the honest and qualified judicial temper of the neighbourhood?" That is the way in which I have always looked at this question.
  I think it is a mistake to suggest that there is a sort of contrast between politics on the one hand and fitness on the other; fitness is the first test. Having satisfied oneself about that, one must make sure that one gets the proportions reasonably right. I am a little astonished that the Report of the Commission does not make more of this point, which in my experience is so important, alike on the advisory committee and on every bench. There has surely always been a desire and an effort to include men and women whose standing and reputation did not depend in the least on their politics. I see another previous Lord Chancellor here, and I am sure he will agree that one has attached the greatest importance to including amongst the justices of the peace of a district at least one lady or gentleman, who would certainly be an admirable member, about whose politics we did not know anything. There are in various parts of the country many good women, women of shrewdness and good sense, who devote their lives to the service of all sorts of good causes. If we can get a woman of that type to serve, I do not care what her politics are, for she is the sort of person who is likely to be generally acceptable. I do not think the Report of the Commis

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  sion makes quite enough of that aspect of the matter.
  Those are the three main matters on which, I think, a certain amount of controversy has turned this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Templemore, just now made reference to age limits. It is always a little delicate for anyone who is in danger of being told by his friends that he is getting older (even though he may not feel it) to make observations on this subject. As regards the juvenile courts, however, I can well understand the feeling of grandfathers that they can deal with the peccadillos of children quite as well as people of the next generation. There is a famous French book which bears the title The Art of being a Grandfather—and it is a charming art. It has very few responsibilities and endless opportunities for enjoyment. I think it is true that the child before a juvenile court probably does not very clearly distinguish between the young man (I do not know between what ages that description should lie) and the person who is thirty years the young man's senior: they are all equally "old buffers" to him. I remember an undergraduate who in his enthusiasm once asked Mr. Asquith whether or not he was at Balliol with Matthew Arnold—and Asquith nearly went through the roof! All the undergraduate knew was that Matthew Arnold and Asquith were both a great deal older than he was. I think there is much to be said for the view, nevertheless, that these juvenile courts are better worked by people who are not advanced too far along the road to old age.
  I remember having been told that at one time, in one of the poorer quarters of London, where, I am sorry to say, the children had not got a better playground, there were some children who used to play in the street and who sometimes acted, as all children love to do. The only stage property they possessed was a beard, and there was always great competition as to who should wear the beard: for they used frequently to pretend that they were sitting as a juvenile court, and whoever was allowed to play the part of the president of the court was permitted to wear the beard. The wearer of the heard used to perform the most extraordinary gestures to indicate that he was the old gentleman who presided. I admit, then, that there is a case to be made for an age limit in juvenile courts.
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  Now let me say a word as to the proposal to make an absolute dead-line at seventy-live as an upper age limit for justices of the peace. That is the proposal which we have to face hereafter. It is quite right to have a maximum age. But, of course, the real truth is that the judicial quality, unlike some other qualities, does sometimes improve with keeping; and assuming that you have a case in which someone who, in other respects having passed the span prescribed by scripture for human life, yet retains unimpaired his faculties—not only his mental faculties, but the faculties of sight and hearing—I must say that I think that there would be some loss caused by the imposing of this restriction. I am sure many instances could be given of this point, not only on ordinary benches but also in Quarter Sessions. It has been the practice hitherto for the Lord Chancellor, in a case where it is clear that further useful service could be rendered, to invite a justice whose time for retirement is due to continue for a further limited period—and there is a great deal to be said for this practice.
  It is curious that no one has mentioned one most important proposal in the Report, which is to abolish the separate commissions of the peace for the smaller bodies. I am sure that would be an improvement but I imagine that that is one of the matters which would call for legislation—as I suppose would some of the other proposals. A great many of these things are within the discretionary administration of the Lord Chancellor, and in this particular matter I have the utmost confidence in the Lord Chancellor's judgment. I hope he will feel that the debate to-day has been of some assistance in reaching a conclusion as to the advice which he will give and as to the form of legislation to be introduced—legislation which I hope will not: he long delayed.
  5.39 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am sure we are all indebted to the noble Lords who have put these Motions on the Paper. We have had a most interesting and instructive debate, which will be of great help to me when making up my mind as to what we ought to include in the forthcoming legislation.

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  I should like to do what many noble Lords have already done, and that is, to express my sense of obligation to the noble and learned Lord, Lord du Parcq, and those who laboured with him so long and so faithfully on this difficult subject. I was certainly wise in my choice of a chairman. I knew that this was a task which he could do supremely well. Notwithstanding that, I tried to surround him with a company of angels to help him; and I think he will agree that in that respect also I succeeded pretty well. The result is that we have what I think is a most valuable and a most useful Report. I propose quite shortly to introduce legislation which will carry out many—in fact, I think I may say most—of the recommendations of that Report, in so far as they need legislation, and at the same time the recommendations of the earlier Departmental Committee over which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche, presided. In view of the fact that this Bill is coming on and that it would be against Parliamentary tradition for me to take this opportunity of saying what the Bill is to contain, I feel that I am suffering from what is sometimes called in legal circles a "restrained anticipation," and I must abstain from telling your Lordships the precise details of our proposals.
  However, I should like to discuss one or two general questions. First of all, there is the question which was raised in the Minority Report of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, as to whether we should look forward to a time when we could appoint stipendiaries all over the country and leave the ordinary magistrates out of it altogether. For my own part, I am altogether opposed to that idea. Though born and bred a lawyer, I should be very sorry if the administration of justice got too much and too exclusively into the hands of lawyers. What we want beyond anything else in the administration of justice is an atmosphere of good common sense. That is a quality which is not always possessed, even by members of my own profession. Therefore I think it would be a mistake to scrap our existing system and to start something new. After all, is not our existing system working pretty well? It was my belief that it was when I appointed this Commission. Of course, there are occasional lapses. Whenever
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  there is a case which comes to my notice and in which I think something is seriously wrong, I always get a Judge to go down at once and investigate it. Because there has been perhaps one such case a year since I have been Lord Chancellor, people may have formed an exaggerated idea that there is something very wrong. I do not think it is so at all. It is that I am careful to see that, whenever there is a breath of suspicion, the matter is investigated. I am sure that policy is right. But when we remember that these magistrates courts deal with over ninety-nine per cent. of the criminal cases of this country, and that with few exceptions the work is very well done, I cannot see any reason whatever for scrapping the whole system and putting in its place something brand new. I, too, believe in local knowledge and a knowledge of the circumstances and the place. I think it is valuable, and I should be sorry to see the practice discontinued.
  Another question about which I want to say a word is politics. Perhaps I am slightly illogical about this matter, but I admit at once than in appointing Judges, whether of the High Court or of the county court, I would never let political considerations weigh with me to the slightest extent. I think it is of fundamental importance that that element should be eliminated altogether. And yet, so far as the bench of magistrates is concerned, considering the question globally, I am quite sure it is desirable, if we can, to see that all Parties have members sitting on the various benches up and down the country. On the other hand, I think that politics is often put too high in the scale of things required. For instance, as the noble Viscount said just now, the first prerequisite obviously is that the man should be a man of good character, of good reputation and of good intelligence. If those considerations are absent, they cannot be made up for by any political affiliations at all. As the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, said, I would far rather have a true blue Tory of the extreme right wing who was an honest and respectable man than I would have somebody more of my line of thought who was not. That goes without saying. But, if we find men with those necessary qualities—men of integrity, men of character, and men who are respected by their neighbourhood—then, given those things, I say it is all to the good that

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  they should be chosen from all sections of society and from all Parties. I believe that to be desirable.
  For the rest, I will say this. I am inclined to think—I was so inclined before I appointed this Commission and I am more inclined to think it now—that, speaking generally, we have too many justices and they tend to be too old. I will tell your Lordships what I mean when I say that we have too many. A rota system has to be adopted because a court of more than seven, in my experience, is an inconvenient court. A court of five should be quite sufficient. Therefore, a rota system is adopted. If there are many justices, it means that some people do not get a chance of taking part in the administration of justice except at considerable intervals of time. The administration of justice is something which needs to be learnt, to be studied, and one gains greatly from experience. The noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, is putting his hand to a most valuable work in trying to bring about the education and training of magistrates. Incidentally, I may say that I entirely agree with him that that should not be done by the State but should be supported by the State, as he suggested. But, whatever training you give, the best training of all is the training of actually sitting and trying cases. If there are a large number of magistrates and new magistrates are given few opportunities to sit, they are not receiving a chance of becoming trained and expert in their work. I had a case the other day of a magistrate who had been appointed and was keen to learn his job. He proceeded to sit whenever the bench was sitting. An indignant protest came to me. It was suggested that I should write and "tell this fellow off," and inform him that he must not show such enthusiasm about his job but must sit more seldom. That is a very practical consideration.
  The other consideration that I mention concerns the age of justices. We all want to get younger magistrates, but the problem is that the younger magistrates have such difficulty in finding time. It is the older magistrates who are giving all their time and services. I do not want in any way to speak slightingly about them. I say only that I wish—and I know many Lord Lieutenants who help me so much about these matters agree with me—that
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  we could have younger people to start with, because, in due course, they will get older and, when they get older, they will have the necessary knowledge and experience. So much for those general considerations.
  I would like to refer here to one particular recommendation of the Royal Commission and that is the one about the Minister who is to advise on the appointment of stipendiary magistrates. I do not feel disposed to fight for the transfer of the appointment of these stipendiary magistrates to the Lord Chancellor at the present time. Your Lordships know that we have a very small staff—and I must say I am pleased to have only a small staff. We have rather inadequate accommodation and, as things are at the present time, I could not contemplate taking on a further branch of that sort of work. Without prejudice to what may happen in the future, I should be sorry to have that duty cast upon me at present.
  Also with regard to the question of ex officio justices, one might say that there will be no ex officio justices; or one might say that it should be mayors or chairmen of councils. But, of course, there is another aspect to that. In these days, when we are taking away so much from local authorities of all sorts, we should be reluctant and hesitant to take away any privilege (which is how they regard it) which they have enjoyed. If we were able to make out a clear case that these justices did interfere with the administration of justice, or made it less efficient than it otherwise would be, then of course we must act. I mention that as one of the matters that we shall have to consider when our legislation comes forward. Subject to that, I am not conscious of any point, in either this Royal Commission or indeed the Roche Committee, which we are not going to attempt to deal with in our legislation.
  My Lords, I want to say a word or two on the question of advisory committees. I believe that it is very desirable that there should be a secretary, who should occupy a prominent position, whose name should be known and to whom all the correspondence should be addressed. However, I do not think it desirable to reveal the identity of the members of the advisory committee. There is, unfortunately, a very great deal of pressure

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  put by various organisations and various Parties—indeed, all Parties—in regard to the appointment of justices, and I myself feel that if the names of the unfortunate people who have to advise me (because they are my personal advisers and nobody else's) were known, the risk of pressure being put upon them, the risk of lobbying and the risk, as Lord Simon said, of the best people not being willing to undertake the task, would be very much increased. Therefore, as at present advised, I shall observe the rule of secrecy and ask that that secrecy be even more strictly maintained than has been the case in the past.
  Now, my Lords, I come to the question of elected chairmen. I hope that we shall provide by rules under the Bill—we shall certainly provide for a rules committee—for the election of the chairmen. I think it should be done annually, and I certainly think it should be done by ballot. That is my present opinion. So far as the retiring age is concerned, that is a very difficult question because, whatever age is fixed, one will always find exceptions. The trouble is that everybody thinks he is an exception. I do not hesitate to say, having regard to the value of this Report, that I think in the first instance, at any rate, I am entitled to accept the Report which the Commission have made. I have no doubt that when we come to debate it in this House we can explore the whole position—there is no Party question about this at all, so far as I know—and we can consider then what is the right course to take.
  There are other and many administrative matters which I can deal with without legislation. The Commission have suggested, for instance, that licensees should not be automatically barred. I think that is right. I am rather glad they have made that recommendation. Hitherto, I have been following a rule which laid down that the fact that a person held a licence was a reason why that person could not be appointed a magistrate. The Commission point out very cogent considerations which apply in the case of a licensee, such as the close relationship between licensees and the police, and various other factors which are set out in their Report. Those factors should always be considered by advisory committees, and they should weigh up the
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  facts carefully to see whether there is any reason for surmounting and disregarding these difficulties. But there should not be, and there will not be in the future, any bar whatever. After all, let us remember that these licensees are men known to be men of good character, and I have always felt that to have an absolute bar upon these men was a mistake. When considering whether or not to recommend them, it is obviously right to take into account the nature of their calling, and all the surrounding circumstances.
  The same applies with regard to clergymen. In the past, there has been an absolute bar with regard to beneficed clergymen. That will be a matter for the advisory committees to consider; they will recommend what names they think right. The same applies also with regard to the Rechabites. That, again, is a matter that the committees will have to consider, and there will be no absolute bar. Generally speaking, I may say that, so far as administrative matters are concerned, I intend to be guided by the Report of the Commission and to work on the lines they have indicated.
  I must say a word about Scotland, but before I do so, may I answer the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp? In our legislation we shall try to clear up the ambiguity of the law at the present time about licensees rather on the lines he has suggested. But I was about to deal with Scotland. I am not going into detail because I hope the Bill will be before us quite shortly. I confess, if I may use that expression, that I had rather hoped that the Commission would recommend that I should no longer be responsible for Scottish appointments. It is often said that everybody in office wants to stretch out greedy hands to try to get further patronage. I do not know whether that is true sometimes; it certainly is not true so far as I am concerned, and I very much doubt whether it is true of any Minister I have ever known, because patronage means a heavy responsibility and some of us have already enough to do. I had hoped that the Commission would have taken away my Scottish duties, but they have not done so and, in the circumstances, I do not think I must shirk them; I must do the best I can. The disadvantages are

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  very obvious, and were put by Lord Schuster.
  One has to apply, illogically though it may seem, a different criterion and a different tradition in England from that applied in Scotland, and it is very hard to maintain the strict English tradition when you are letting Scotland run amok (if Scotland ever does run amok) in the matter of appointments of magistrates. But it has to be done. If and when I am told that there is a united opinion in Scotland which enables the Lord Chancellor to hand over all his functions to somebody else, I shall be very relieved to do so. But having been told by the unanimous Report of this Commission that that is not the case, f must continue to do the best I can. I must support myself, of course, with the sort of advisory committee which this Commission recommend, and I need hardly say that although that advisory committee will not be appointed by the Secretary of State for Scotland, the names will be suggested by him. I think we had better go on on that principle and see how matters work, and whether that principle causes general satisfaction. As I say, if it does not—and here I occupy the same position as all my predecessors—I would be only too pleased to be able to pass to other hands this difficult and burdensome duty.
  May I say how much the Lord Chancellor has owed to his staff in this matter? I do not mind mentioning a name which many of your Lordships know—that of Sir Rupert Howorth. Most valuable services have been rendered to me by Sir Rupert, and I am indeed deeply sorry that circumstances have made it necessary for him to resign. I am glad that Mr. Skyrme, who has been trained under Sir Rupert Howorth, is now taking on his difficult task.
  I wish also to say that in the counties the success of the system depends upon the Lord Lieutenant working with my Secretary of Commissions. There are some Lord Lieutenants who, by reason of age or infirmity, are not able to do what they would like to do, but there are others who do get to know all the details of their
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  areas, and they are able to give me most valuable help. I rely upon them and count on their support, and they know that they will always have my backing in the difficult work which they have to do. In the boroughs, the chairmen should also keep, and, I am glad to say, do keep, in the closest and friendliest touch with my staff, and they have always the right to come to me personally about this matter.
  That is really all I have to say. What I have done substantially is to say that. I hope that in the forthcoming legislation we shall be able to introduce measures to, implement the great bulk of the recommendations contained in the du Parcq Report and also in the Roche Report of an earlier date. Having said that, I would again thank the noble Lord who initiated this debate for the privilege which he has afforded me of speaking about this important matter.
  6.3 p.m.
  LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, I wish to ask your permission to withdraw my Motion, and, at the same time, would like to take the opportunity of expressing my deep gratitude to all noble Lords who have spoken for helping to make this a most interesting debate.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: My Lords, before the House rises, I should like to make one observation. I had intended to speak in some detail about Lord Roche's Committee, but when I came into the House this afternoon I was told that it would meet the convenience of the Lord Chancellor if the debate ended at about this hour. Accordingly, I did not weary your Lordships with my observations upon the work of Lord Roche's Committee. I should like, however, to say that I agree with every word which Lord Roche himself has said. I was very glad to note that he made very much the same points which I had intended to make. Having said that, I would only add that I do not move my Motion.
  House adjourned at five minutes past six o'clock.