Sitting of 2 November 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Housing
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the tenants at 120 Blackburn Street, Kinning Park, Glasgow, are living in dwellings in such an extreme state of disrepair as to be dangerous to life; and what steps he is taking to ensure their safety.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Woodburn): I am informed that the houses in this property are in a poor state of repair and that the back wall of the building is slightly bulged. Should this defect worsen, the Corporation will immediately deal with the property as a dangerous building. In the meantime they are considering its acquisition with a view to executing all necessary repairs.
    Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this property is not merely in a slightly dangerous condition, but is in a very serious state, and while these negotiations are going on, what immediate steps are to be taken to safeguard the position of the tenants who are in a state of alarm at this moment?
    Mr. Woodburn: I shall ask the local authority to look further into the matter in view of what my hon. Friend says.
    Commander Galbraith: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only cure for this state of affairs is to build more houses, and can he say what limitation there has been on the building of houses in Glasgow this year?
    Mr. Woodburn: That cure has been known for 60 years, but it is rather late in the day for the hon. and gallant Member to suggest putting it into operation now.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) whether he is aware that Edinburgh Corporation has only received permission to erect 200 new houses next year; that thousands of people in the city are living in insanitary or overcrowded conditions; and whether he will allow the local authority to press on with the provision of new houses;
    (2) on what grounds he has limited the construction of new local authority houses in Edinburgh to only 200 in the next year.
    Mr. Woodburn: The corporation have yet to complete some 1,300 houses, on the majority of which work will still be proceeding next year. Nevertheless, 200 additional houses have been allocated to the city for commencement in 1949, and a further instalment can be considered when more progress has been made with those houses now building. In the meantime, the number of new houses that may be approved is severely limited by the present restrictions on capital investment, and the allocation to Edinburgh could be increased only at the expense of other local authorities.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Is the Secretary of State aware that there are more than 4,000 people whose names are entered on the emergency housing list of the social services officer of the city at the present time, quite apart from those who are registered with the city's housing department? This is a matter of very great urgency.
    Mr. Woodburn: I quite agree, but the delay in house-building, extending over the last 50 years, cannot be remedied in three years. Since the war, Edinburgh has had 25 times the number of houses built and provided that were provided in the same period after the previous war.
    Mr. Willis: Is it not a fact that certain restraint has been exercised by the Edinburgh Corporation in commencing new houses and that, under these new provisions, that acts to the detriment of Edinburgh in obtaining new houses?
    Mr. Woodburn: I quite admit that Edinburgh exercised restraint and did not go so far as other authorities in building new houses. Because of that restraint, Edinburgh has had the first allocation of new houses.
    Major Guy Lloyd: Is the Minister aware that, bad as the situation is in Edinburgh, it is much worse in Glasgow, where it is a scandal?

    Forestry (Dedication Agreements)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many Scottish landlords have dedicated their planted land to the growing of trees; and what acreage has been planted to the nearest available date.
    Mr. Woodburn: No dedication agreement has yet been completed, but seven agreements are awaiting legal completion and plans for a further 85 estates are in course of preparation. Owners of an additional 116 estates have intimated their willingness to consider dedication. Up to date afforestation grants have been paid in respect of 2,880 acres planted on private estates during the season 1947#48.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of the relative failure of this scheme and the future timber needs of the country, is my right hon. Friend aware that many people are now thinking that stronger steps than dedication ought to be taken with regard to this problem?
    Mr. Woodburn: The Forestry Commission are looking into this, but it is much better if we proceed on the basis of goodwill than any kind of compulsion.
    Major McCallum: When does the Secretary of State think the Forestry Commission will be in a position to provide labour to assist those who are dedicating or who have dedicated, because I understand there is no labour available to assist them?
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Would the Minister agree that it is too early yet to judge whether this is a relative failure or not, and is it not a fact that owners in some cases have held back because of the irrevocable nature of the covenant to which they are asked to agree, but that now they are coming forward and there is every hope that they will do so in large numbers?
    Mr. Woodburn: I quite agree that there has been a good deal of misunderstanding and owners have not been very well informed of all the particulars of this scheme. Steps are being taken to bring better knowledge to them.

    Shop Premises Tenure (Inquiry)
    Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will reconsider his decision not to introduce legislation to give increased security of tenure to the tenants of business and shop premises.
    Mr. J. L. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will announce what action he proposes to take to implement the recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry into the tenure of shop premises in Scotland.
    Mr. Woodburn: I have given further consideration to the position of tenants of shop premises in Scotland, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and we propose that in the light of recent experience the matter should be the subject of further inquiry which will cover examination of the terms of tenancy of shops and business premises. We have accordingly invited the members of the Committee of Inquiry to continue their investigations with broader terms of remit, and to report specially, as soon as possible, on shops. The terms of reference of the reconvened Committee are being circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: While welcoming this statement by the Secretary of State, can he hold out any hope of the report being made available in time to deal with this matter before the May term?
    Mr. Woodburn: I should hope so. I have asked them to report quickly on the shops.
    Mr. J. L. Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of the people affected will be very glad to hear that there is a move on?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any action that may be taken as result of this inquiry will be retrospective? That is very important.
    Mr. Woodburn: I should require notice of that question.
    Mr. Carmichael: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the same personnel

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    is adequate to deal with this problem in view of the report that was brought in on the last occasion.
    Mr. Woodburn: I do not think any reflection should be made on the bona fides of the Committee, who came to a judgment on the evidence submitted to them. I must repudiate any suggestion that that Committee acted otherwise than in the best judicial fashion, and the Committee will be appointed—there may be some changes—to go into the evidence again. Those who have evidence ought to submit it.
    Following are the terms of reference:

    "(a) To consider and report whether, in the light of recent experiences, any modification of the conclusions recorded by the Committee in their previous Report with regard to Shop Premises is called for; and

    (b)To investigate the position at the termination of their tenancies of tenants of premises used for business, trade or professional purposes, and to report:

    (i)Whether and in what circumstances an occupying tenant of such premises should be given security of tenure such as is at present enjoyed by tenants of premises which are subject to the Rent Restriction Acts; and

    (ii) Whether it is desirable and practicable to control rents charged for such premises, and if so by what means."

    Potato Crop (Lifting)
    Mr. Niall Macphersonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proportion of the potato crop in Scotland in general, and in Dumfries-shire in particular, has been lifted at the latest available date; and when he expects that the rest of the crop in Dumfries-shire will be lifted.
    Mr. Woodburn: Between 85 per cent. and 90 per cent. of the potato crop in Scotland had been lifted by 30th October. The corresponding figure for Dumfries-shire is from 75 per cent. to 80 per cent. Given good weather, lifting should be completed in Dumfries-shire by the end of this week.
    Mr. Macpherson: Is the Secretary of State satisfied with the amount of labour which has been available for getting in the crop this year in due time?
    Mr. Woodburn: Weather handicapped the employment of existing labour during the time when it could have been best
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    used. The problem of lifting the potato crop has not yet been solved in a permanent way. The matter is being looked into.
    Mr. Snadden: Is it not a fact that the farmers of Scotland responded marvellously in growing an enormous crop of potatoes? Is it not up to the Government to get those potatoes in?
    Mr. Woodburn: I think the farmers would agree that the Government had done everything humanly possible. Great tribute ought to be paid to the schoolchildren, who have played such a marvellous part in getting in this crop.

    Services Land (Agricultural Use)
    Mr. McKieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether it is customary in cases where land is in use for Service purposes, and which is now being made available for agricultural purposes, that equal treatment should be given to all dispossessed occupiers concerned.
    Mr. Woodburn: Except where there are Service requirements restricting the agricultural use to which the land may be put, it is customary, other things being equal, for all dispossessed occupiers to be treated on the same basis when surplus land is being let.
    Mr. McKie: Is the Minister aware that there are cases where dispossessed occupiers, in all the conditions which he has envisaged, have not been given an opportunity? Will the right hon. Gentleman institute a review of the whole state of affairs in order that the full facts may be available?
    Mr. Woodburn: The answer is that I am not aware of those cases. If the hon. Member is aware of them, perhaps the best thing he could do would be to bring them to our notice.
    Major Lloyd: Will the Minister promise that if they are brought to his notice, the principle which he has just enunciated of equity and social justice will be carried out? Otherwise, what is the use of bringing the cases to his notice?

    Historical Relics and Documents
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he anticipates that the historical relics and

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    documents of Scotland, including those recently returned or about to be returned by the Master of the Rolls, will be properly exhibited and catalogued.
    Mr. Woodburn: Some of the more important historical relics and documents are exhibited in the gallery of the Scottish Record Office, and a guide to such documents is in course of being printed. The exhibition of documents on a larger scale is dependent on additional accommodation being made available, and this question is under consideration.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is the right hon. Gentleman seeing to it that he or the appropriate people get on with cataloguing, because that can be done without extra premises?
    Mr. Woodburn: I ought to say that the number of relics and documents which are being handed over to this Office is very great. It is a very large job to tackle and it may take years to get it thoroughly accomplished.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Are they doing it now?
    Mr. Woodburn: Yes, Sir.

    Lyon King of Arms
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the functions of the Lord Lyon King of Arms.
    Mr. Woodburn: Lyon King of Arms is His Majesty's principal officer of arms in Scotland. His duties include the granting and recording of arms, and the investigation and decision of a wide range of questions relating to heraldry, genealogy, precedence and change of name. He is concerned with royal and public ceremonial in Scotland, and advises the Secretary of State on heraldic and cognate matters. He is also secretary of the Order of the Thistle.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: In view of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday about the need for conserving manpower, will the Secretary of State for Scotland consider amalgamating the office of the Lord Lyon with that of the Lord High Commissioner?
    Mr. Woodburn: The Lord Lyon saves a great deal of manpower because he avoids the necessity for everybody look-
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    Lyon King to find out their own hereditary rights.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that if there is an argument about Scottish Arms between the Lord Lyon and the Garter King-at-Arms, the Lord Lyon's say will be effective and not that of the Garter?
    Mr. McKinlay: Does it come within the province of the Lord Lyon to act as stooge for the Lord Provost of Edinburgh in questions of dress on public occasions?
    Mr. Woodburn: That is a ticklish question. If I might misquote Shakespeare, I would say:
    "God shield us! A Lyon among Provosts, is a most dreadful thing: for there is not a more fearful wild-fowl than your Lyon, living."

  PENSIONS (PERSONAL CASE)
  Brigadier Petoasked the Minister of Pensions when Mr. J. C. Potter, of the Post Office, Challacombe, North Devon, who has been unable to work at his trade of shoeingsmith for the past three years by reason of a spinal disability incurred on active service in 1916, is likely to receive a reply to his application for a medical board, dated 10th January, 1946.
  The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Marquand): Mr. Potter's letter did not contain an application for a medical board but inquired whether there were any means of helping him owing to his being unemployed. Shortly after the receipt of this letter Mr. Potter's pension and allowances were increased by 18s. 9d. a week, and he made no further application. I am, however, now arranging for Mr. Potter to be medically examined and as soon as the report of this examination is received I will consider what further action I can take to help him.
  Brigadier Peto: Is the Minister aware that I have here his formal acknowledgement, on MPR 150 from his Ministry, dated 17th January, 1946, of the application for a medical board? Is he further aware that the final paragraph says:
  "In view of the large number of cases to be dealt with it is particularly requested that you should not in the meantime make any further application,"

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  and that Mr. Potter has abided by that request until now, when he was written to me?
  Mr. Marquand: Yes, Sir. I think it was a genuine misunderstanding about the purport of his letter. I will now try to get the examination done as quickly as possible.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Surrendered Firearms
    Mr. E. P. Smithasked the Secretary of State for War approximately how many firearms surrendered to the police have been passed on to his Department by the Home Office since the conclusion of hostilities; and what he has done with them.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell): Some 58,000 firearms of various types have been received from the police. A small number has been returned to the original owners, in cases where legal rights to possession could be proved. Some of special interest have been handed over to research establishments or museums. Incomplete or damaged firearms of no value have been reduced to scrap. The rest are passed to the Ministry of Supply for disposal.
    Mr. Smith: Can the right hon. Gentle' man say whether the War Office receives the proceeds of the sale of those handed to the Minister of Supply for disposal, and what is the total that has been received?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am afraid that I should have to have notice of that question.
    Mr. Turton: Is it to be taken from the reply that anyone who has had a firearm taken away can apply to the War Office to have it back?
    Mr. Shinwell: They may be able to apply, but about the response I cannot say.

    Married Quarters, Brancepeth Camp
    Mr. Murrayasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that a number of soldiers and their wives have no quarters at Brancepeth Camp, Co. Durham, and that this is creating discontent and hardship among the soldiers; and and if he will have some of the huts at
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    This camp converted into married quarters.
    Mr. Shinwell: Twenty-two married quarters have already been provided at this camp by the conversion of huts or other buildings. Work on the conversion of huts into six further quarters will, I hope, start shortly.
    Mr. Murray: While I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that soldiers at this camp have offered their services free in order to get more accommodation, and that they have been refused? Could he not cut the red tape and get more accommodation?
    Mr. Shinwell: It is not a matter of red tape. We have not sufficient War Department land on the site to build the married quarters.
    Mr. Murray: Is it not a fact that the soldiers have offered in their own time to help to convert these huts and that that offer has been refused, and can my right hon. Friend do anything about a matter like that?
    Mr. Shinwell: I have no information about that. Note will be taken of what my hon. Friend says, and I will make the necessary inquiries.

    War Graves
    Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the Imperial War Graves Commission has refused the request of Mrs. Rosier, of Leckhampstead, Berkshire, for a photograph of her son's grave in the Sangro River Cemetery, Italy; and if, in view of the difficulties involved in making private arrangements for photographs to be supplied, he will arrange for the Commission to render this service.
    Mr. Shinwell: The Imperial War Graves Commission have no power under their Charter to supply photographs of individual graves. In November, 1946, my Department sent Mrs. Rosier a photograph of the wooden cross placed by the Army on her son's grave. It has not yet been possible for the Commission to replace the wooden cross by a permanent headstone but they have sent Mrs. Rosier the name and address of a photographer with whom she can communicate when the headstone is in position.
    Mr. Hurd: Does the Minister realise that it is quite impossible for people in the position of Mrs. Rosier to make arrangements to get foreign exchange to pay an Italian photographer? Is it not in the public interest that the Imperial War Graves Commission should be given authority to render this little service?
    Mr. Shinwell: So far as foreign exchange is concerned, if it is represented to us that that is an obstacle, I will certainly look into it. As regards revising the Charter of the Imperial War Graves Commission, I am not empowered to do so.
    Commander Nobleasked the Secretary of State for War why information that graves in Germany are to be moved is not immediately given to next-of-kin, in order that the disappointment of visiting the old site in vain may be avoided.
    Mr. Shinwell: It has been the policy that all graves of Service personnel in Germany should be concentrated into military cemeteries. Owing to the numbers involved, it would have been quite impracticable to notify the next-of-kin of the date of removal and they have been informed only after the remains have been reburied in their final resting place in a military cemetery. The work in Germany of the Army Graves Service, except in the Soviet zone, has now been completed.
    Commander Noble: Will the Minister give an assurance that this notice or warning, is given as soon as possible? He will no doubt appreciate the distress of people going to visit an old site.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am fully aware of the difficulties and the feelings of those concerned, and I will do everything I possibly can to alleviate their suffering.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Will the Minister say why it is impracticable? Just to state that it is impracticable is not very satisfactory. Can he give any reasons why it cannot be done?
    Mr. Shinwell: Unfortunately, in these matters arrangements have to be made to disinter bodies. A great deal of difficulty arises from that—I must leave some of these matters to the imagination of hon. Members—and we prefer to deal with the matter as we propose.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are instances in which relatives have asked that bodies shall not be moved? Can he give an assurance that their wishes will be respected?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am afraid I cannot give an assurance of that kind because under these arrangements we have to provide for the interment of these bodies in military cemeteries.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a case which affects me very closely personally, a special request was made that a body should not be moved and I received an assurance from one of his predecessors that that wish would be respected? Will he repeat that assurance?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am afraid that I should have to look into that. However, I assure hon. Members that I am anxious to assist in every way I can to respect the feelings of those concerned.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: When these transfers take place, is it not possible for the next-of-kin to receive a communication from the War Office pointing out that they will waste their time in visiting the old site?
    Mr. Shinwell: So far as I know, no difficulties have arisen in that connection—I inquired into it—but if there are cases where people have not been informed in time, I will do what I can to prevent that happening.

    Rations
    Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for War if he will arrange for young soldiers while in training to have rations at least equivalent to those provided for heavy workers in industry.
    Mr. Shinwell: Units engaged in training young soldiers receive a supplementary ration which adds some 400 calories to the basic ration. This is considered to bring the ration of the young soldier approximately into line with that available to civilians performing comparable work, so far as it is possible to make a comparison.
    Mr. Hurd: Is the Minister aware that these boys of 18 who are doing hard physical work in their first months of training are not getting anything after a meal at 4.30 in the afternoon?
    Mr. Shinwell: That is hardly correct because supper is laid on for all the units. It sometimes happens that the boys prefer to go to the N.A.A.F.I. or other convenient centres for meals rather than partake of the Army supper, but that is a matter of taste.
    Mr. Hurd: Is the Minister aware that while supper may be laid on, quite often it is not available?
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that almost invariably these young recruits are gaining in weight as a result of Army rations?
    Mr. Shinwell: I detect no diminution in their stature.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Secretary of State for War at least consider increasing the ration of bread, which is unrationed for heavy workers? The amount provided in the Services is quite inadequate for young soldiers.
    Mr. Shinwell: Any increase in the ration must apply generally to the Forces——
    Mr. Keeling: I said so.
    Mr. Shinwell: —and therefore the question ought to be addressed to another quarter.
    Mr. Nicholson: If cases are brought to the right hon. Gentleman's attention where supper is not provided, will he look into the matter?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am surprised to hear a suggestion of that kind, but if the hon. Member brings to my notice a matter of that sort, I will certainly do what I can to rectify it.
    Mr. John Morrisonasked the Secretary of State for War if, in view of the present large potato supplies, he will consult with the Ministry of Food and restore the Army potato ration from 12 oz. to 1 lb.
    Mr. Shinwell: When the Army potato ration was reduced last winter from 16 oz. to 12 oz., the bread ration was increased by 1 oz., which is nutritionally equivalent; units were, however, no longer allowed to take potatoes in place of bread or flour. Since potatoes have become more plentiful they have again been allowed to do so, although the extra bread ration remains on the scale. They
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    can also buy additional supplies with the cash element of the ration. The potato ration is therefore not limited to the basic scale of 12 ozs. No alteration in the present arrangement seems necessary.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether the 400 calories increase for young soldiers, which he mentioned in a reply to an earlier Question, is drawn from the source of potatoes?
    Mr. Shinwell: It might well be, but I cannot say.

    Canal, Appledore—Rye
    Mr. E. P. Smithasked the Secretary of State for War (1) why, in view of the fact that the Military Canal has been cleaned and dredged as far as Appledore, it has not been cleaned from Appledore to Iden Bridge; and when he proposes to renew the rotted lock-gates at the junction with the River Rother; and
    (2) what steps he is taking to replace those Huntingdon elms fringing the Military Canal from Appledore to Rye, which have died; and if he is aware that, there being no undergrowth along the canal, the north bank will, in time, be in danger of slipping.
    Mr. Shinwell: The canal and towpath have for many years been leased to the Kent Rivers Catchment Board, who have recently acquired the freehold of the part referred to, including the lock gates. The matters referred to in these Questions are, therefore, the responsibility of the Board.
    Mr. Smith: Was any sum paid by the War Office to the catchment board concerned, in view of the fact that that stretch of the canal was badly in need of dredging at the time of transfer, and did the conveyance contain any stipulations for its proper upkeep?
    Mr. Shinwell: There is nothing in the Question about finance.

    Military Establishments (Unauthorised Residents)
    Mr. Fitzroy Macleanasked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to the case of a civilian who lived at Hillsea Barracks,

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    Portsmouth, for six months without being discovered; and what steps are being taken to ensure that other unauthorised persons are not living at the Government's expense in other military establishments.
    Mr. Shinwell: This matter has been the subject of a court of inquiry, the proceedings of which are at present being examined. When I have received a report, I will write to the hon. Member.

    Newspaper, Tripolitania
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Secretary of State for War whether the "Sunday Ghibli," which carries a statement that it is printed and published by the Government printers, British Military Administration, Tripolitania, is a paper sponsored by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Shinwell: The paper mentioned is privately produced, but printed by the British Military Administration Press, which is the only printing press in Tripolitania. The paper is not sponsored in any way by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Marshall: Arising out of the Minister's reply, may I ask him whether he does not consider that the present wording at the top of the paper is most misleading? Secondly, is he aware that 15 per cent. of the profits of the paper go to the Government?
    Mr. Shinwell: No, the producers of the paper pay the Administration the cost of the printing, and that is quite natural; hon. Members would not wish it to be otherwise. As for the heading on the paper, if the hon. Member refers to the title, which is the "Sunday Ghibli," I do not know what it represents.
    Mr. Marshall: Arising out of that, may I be allowed to put this question to the Minister, Mr. Speaker? The Minister knows perfectly well that I am not referring to that phrase. Already in my Question I have put the exact words used in the case of that paper, which I think hon. Members of this House will consider are most misleading.
    Mr. Shinwell: If the hon. Member refers to that part of his Question where it is alleged that it is printed and published by the Government printers, all
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    I can say is that, according to the information supplied to me, the paper does not belong to us, it is not published by us; it is merely printed by us and we receive payment.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Is not this paper, like every other paper, bound by law to carry upon its face an imprint showing where it is printed and published? If that is so, what is there misleading about this one?
    Mr. Shinwell: I did not know there was anything misleading about it, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend.

    Pay Over-Issues (Repayment)
    Commander Nobleasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will reconsider the case of a senior officer who was overpaid for five months through a War Office error, and has been called upon to refund some £300; and what is the maximum proportion of net emoluments that may be deducted without notice for this purpose.
    Mr. Shinwell: I have reviewed the case of this officer but I can find no grounds for interfering with the decision taken by the Army Council in September, 1947, that repayment of the debt should be made in full. The practice in such cases, where an over-issue has been made through a mistake of fact, is to invite the officer to make proposals for repayment or to give his reasons why he is unwilling to do so. If he is unwilling to refund, the case is considered by the Army Council as an appeal, and a decision is taken on the merits. If it is decided that the whole or part of the over-issue should be refunded, it is recovered by monthly deductions from pay which have regard to the rank and domestic responsibilities of the officer, but if he becomes due for release while part of the debt is outstanding, half the net monthly pay is during release leave, after notice, normally deducted if necessary to effect recovery. In the case referred to in the Question, the deduction of one-half the net pay was, through an oversight of the Army agents, begun without previous notice to the officer in respect of the month's pay due, in arrear, at the beginning of his release leave. This did not affect the net result to the officer, but resulted in somewhat earlier completion.
    Commander Noble: Is the Minister aware that this officer, who is now out of the Army, is labouring under a great grievance, and as this happened at the end of the officer's career, could it not be reconsidered?
    Mr. Shinwell: I have given this matter careful and personal consideration, and I am bound to say that, although a mistake occurred, the officer has no legitimate grievance and, in fact, the whole of the amount due from him has now been recovered.
    Sir Ronald Ross: Is there any special regulation as to the monetary deductions? Is the Minister aware that in my own case the authorities took such a view of my responsibilities that they thought £4 a month would be quite sufficient?
    Mr. Shinwell: I would like to know something more about the hon. Member's special case.
    General Sir George Jeffreys: Although such mistakes do occur in practice, will the Secretary of State take steps to see that in future they are as infrequent as possible? And is it not unfortunate that, when such mistakes occur, it is always the Treasury which is held to be in the right?
    Mr. Shinwell: On the whole, I am bound to say that the mistakes which occur are very few.
    Scollan: Is not the trend of this Question for the purpose of proving that these are the spoils of war that should go to the soldier?

    Recruitment
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Secretary of State for War what were the recruitment figures for the Regular Army and Territorial Army in the month of September in 1947 and in 1948, respectively.
    Mr. Shinwell: I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table giving the information asked for.
    Mr. Chetwynd: But is my right hon. Friend able to say in which areas of the country he is getting the best response and where the response is not so good?
    Mr. Shinwell: If my hon. Friend refers to the Regular Army, the recruitment is
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    very favourable, certainly in recent months. I cannot give the details. As regards the Territorial Army, there has been a substantial increase in the last month, although not as good as we should like, and in some parts of the country it is exceptionally good; for example, in the North it is rather better than in some parts of the South.
    Following is the table:

    Recruits for the Regular Army and the Territorial Army during September. 1947, and September. 1948.

    September, 1947

    September, 1948

    Regular Army (male other ranks only recruited on normal and short service engagements)

    3,635

    3,559

    Territorial Army (men and women of all ranks)

    3,758

    4,569

    Major G. Lloydasked the Secretary of State for War how many local authorities and trades councils have so far declined to assist in the recruiting campaign.
    Mr. Shinwell: This information is not available in my Department.
    Major Lloyd: That does not explain the fact that it is notorious, as has appeared repeatedly in the Press, that there have been public protests against several local authorities and trades councils; but are they not merely following the example of many Ministers of His Majesty's Government on the Front Bench right up to the beginning of the last war?
    Mr. Shinwell: While I cannot give details of the number of councils which have declined to participate in the campaign, I gather that those which have declined are rather mixed politically, and some represent views other than those held by this side of the House.

  TERRITORIAL ARMY

    Adjutants' Pay
    Colonel Dowerasked the Secretary of State for War if it is proposed that Territorial adjutants shall receive the same rate of pay as Regular officers who are adjutants of Territorial units.
    Mr. Shinwell: It is not proposed to revise the rate of pay of non-Regular Territorial Army adjutants. The consolidated rate does not compare unfavourably with the pay of Regular officers, when it is remembered that the officers concerned have much lesser liabilities. They serve in a fixed position, generally near their homes, and are not liable to be moved without their consent, whereas the Regular officer is liable to serve in any part of the world.
    Colonel Dower: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that their functions as adjutants of Territorial regiments are the same and their work is very often even heavier? In view of the fact that we want to encourage Territorials to come forward wherever possible until they can be replaced by Regular officers, will the right hon. Gentleman see whether this grievance can be removed?
    Mr. Shinwell: So far as I know, there is no actual grievance. There is a difference in the liabilities incurred, and on the whole we think that the rates of pay and emoluments are favourable.
    Sir Ralph Glyn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has been represented to the War Office on several occasions that we shall not be able to attract sufficient officers to these posts unless they are given equal pay for equal work?
    Mr. Shinwell: As it happens, we are able to attract sufficient officers.

    Uniforms
    Colonel Dowerasked the Secretary of State for War if he is satisfied that the issue of uniforms to recruits joining the Territorial Army is suitable and adequate.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am satisfied that the issue of uniforms, including protective clothing, to recruits joining the Territorial Army is suitable and adequate.
    Colonel Dower: Has it been drawn to the right hon. Gentleman's attention that in a number of cases battledress blouses and battledress trousers are of a different colour and a different material?
    Mr. Shinwell: No, Sir; I am not aware of it; but if the hon. and gallant Gentleman can furnish me with information, I will certainly look into it.

  U.S. TROOPS, UNITED KINGDOM
  Mr. Prittasked the Secretary of State for War how many U.S. troops are stationed in this country; in what areas; for how long it is proposed that they will remain; under what agreements they are here; what steps are being taken to arrange for their return home; how much land has been requisitioned or withheld from release for their accommodation; and what expenses fall upon this country in connection with their sojourn here.
  Mr. Shinwell: No United States troops are stationed in this country apart from a small number of members of the United States Army engaged on courses, liaison duties and the repatriation of United States dead. The rest of the Question does not, therefore, arise.
  Mr. Pritt: Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that I put down this Question to the Minister of Defence and it was transferred to him, and that in ordinary parlance "troops" includes the Air Force, and would he answer about the United States Air Force?
  Mr. Shinwell: All that I can deal with is the Question on the Paper, which refers' to United States troops and not to the Air Force. Therefore, my answer to my hon. and learned Friend is that there are none.
  Mr. Pritt: Could the right hon. Gentleman give some authority for the astonishing proposition that Air Force personnel are not "troops" in a Question addressed to the Minister of Defence?
  Mr. Shinwell: My impression was that my hon. and learned Friend referred to soldiers and not to airmen.
  Mr. Pritt: Was the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Question was addressed to the Minister of Defence?
  Mr. Shinwell: The Question may have been addressed to my right hon. Friend, but it has come to me, and I have given an answer in accordance with the facts.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: Might I ask whether the Minister of War would be willing to provide some legal advice to the hon. and learned Gentleman about the adequate drafting of a Question?
  Mr. Shinwell: I would never dare to compete with the hon. Member opposite in giving advice of any kind.
  Mr. Bramall: Is it not a fact that United States Air Force personnel are members of the United States Army?
  Mr. Shinwell: I was asked about "troops" and I thought "troops" referred to the personnel under my political control.
  Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all right-minded people in this country welcomed the arrival of these troops?
  Mr. Speaker: That has nothing to do with this Question.

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING

    Rural Areas
    Sir Charles Edwardsasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning when the report of Mr. T. Alwyn Lloyd and Mr. Herbert Jackson on country planning will be issued.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. King): This report is in the hands of the printers and it is hoped that it will be published about the end of February.

    Satellite Towns, South Wales
    Sir C. Edwardsasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning if he will give the names of the places in Wales and Monmouthshire where the two satellite towns are to be built.
    Mr. King: Investigation is proceeding into sites for new towns in South Wales and Monmouthshire, but my right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make a statement on this subject.

    West Midland Plan
    Mr. H. D. Hughesasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning what progress has been made with the Abercrombie Report on South Staffordshire; and when he anticipates its publication.
    Mr. King: Advance typed copies of the West Midland Plan prepared by Professor
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    Abercrombie and Mr. Jackson have been sent to the local planning authorities in the area. My right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to forecast the date of the publication of this report.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Teacher Trainees
    Squadron-Leader Flemingasked the Minister of National Insurance whether trainees under the Emergency Training Scheme for teachers will be exempt from paying the full weekly contribution of 4s. 11d. under the National Insurance scheme.
    The Minister of National Insurance (Mr. James Griffiths): Yes, Sir, and a contribution is credited to such a trainee for each week of the course.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Manchester there are cases where students have had these contributions deducted, and will he look into the matter and see that they are repaid?
    Mr. Griffiths: Yes. The Ministry of Education is now sending out individual notifications to all the persons concerned explaining fully to them their entitlement to credits.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Will there be repayment of those amounts which have been deducted?
    Mr. Griffiths: Yes.

    Contributions (Default)
    Mr. Molsonasked the Minister of National Insurance whether he can give an estimate of the extent of non-stamping or under-stamping of insurance cards and of the loss of revenue to the National Insurance Fund caused thereby in the period since the appointed day, 5th July, 1948.
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of National Insurance how many self-employed and non-employed persons are contributing to the National Insurance scheme; and what action is being taken against defaulters.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I regret that the figures asked for by the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) are not available. Up to 9th October, approximately

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    1,350,000 persons had registered as new entrants in the self-employed and non-employed classes. To those must be added a substantial body of persons who were voluntary contributors under the old scheme; the exact numbers falling into these classes are not known.
    As regards the second part of the Question by my hon. Friend, I have no reason to think that there is any deliberate and widespread evasion of their obligations among persons in these classes, but I am watching the position closely.
    Mr. Molson: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that in the administration of this matter it is of some importance to know how many people are not conforming with the law and will he have some inquiry made into this matter in order to prepare an estimate?
    Mr. Griffiths: Yes, but exemption is permitted to men and women in low income groups in these classes. Particulars of these are still being received and we are considering them. Later on we shall be in a position to make a firm estimate. For the present, I would like to take the opportunity of reminding everybody in this classification that contributions were due as from 5th July and that the sooner they are paid the better it will be.

    Injured Persons (Supplementary Allowances)
    Mr. S. 0. Daviesasked the Minister of National Insurance how many persons injured before 5th July, 1948, and in receipt of Workmen's Compensation, were awarded the unemployability supplement and constant attendance allowance under the Industrial Injuries Act, or sickness benefit under the National Insurance Act.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I regret that the detailed information asked for is not available. Allowances under Section 82 of the Industrial Injuries Act to persons in receipt of Workmen's Compensation, namely, unemployability supplement or constant attendance allowance, or in some cases both, have been awarded in 434 cases, but we have no information as to the number of cases in which a person is drawing sickness benefit concurrently with Workmen's Compensation.
    Mr. Davies: In thanking the Minister for his very encouraging answer, which will give great pleasure to the organised workers of this country, may I ask whether he can promise to give full details later of the numbers of people who are in receipt of Workmen's Compensation and sickness benefit?
    Mr. Griffiths: Yes. There is a substantially larger number of cases of men who were in receipt of Workmen's Compensation before 5th July who are receiving sickness benefit, and I believe that by the provision of sickness benefit and unemployability allowance we are now making awards to many people who were in receipt of compensation before 5th July.

    Retirement Pensions
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of National Insurance if he will take action to remedy the grievance of voluntary contributors under the National Insurance Act who were guaranteed a weekly pension of 10s. without conditions at the age of 65 but who, if their birthday falls after 5th July, 1948, must now retire from work, which many do not wish to do, in order to qualify for a pension.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The conditions linking pension with retirement apply equally to all insured persons. The benefits now provided for contributors under the old scheme arc in all cases actuarially more valuable than those which they have replaced, and I can see no reason why the former voluntary status of a contributor should give privileges in the new scheme which are not accorded to those whose previous insurance was compulsory.
    Mr. Lipson: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that these persons entered into a contract with the State, and is not the State under a solemn obligation to honour its part of the contract, which has been violated?
    Mr. Griffiths: As a matter of fact, the State is doing very much better than honouring its contract. If I may quote an example, there was a voluntary scheme by which women paid 6d. per week to become entitled to a pension of 10s. at 65 years of age. From 5th July last.

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    however, they have been entitled to 26s. a week at 60 years of age and already over 50,000 such awards have been made.
    Mr. Haworth: Is the Minister aware that it is a very old principle in trade union negotiations that where better schemes are brought forward people may opt to remain in the old one, and, since the people referred to in this Question would be entitled to 10s. without retiring, could the Minister give them the option to remain under the old scheme if, rather short-sightedly, they prefer to do so?
    Mr. Griffiths: I do not know how I could give them that option and at the same time introduce the benefits of the new scheme to a very much larger number of people as from 5th July. We considered carefully whether any such option could be given, but I do not think that it would be practicable.
    Mr. Osbert Peake: If an option were, in fact, given to these persons, would not there be a very great saving to the Insurance Fund, to the benefit of all other contributors?
    Mr. Griffiths: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that this idea was first put forward in the White Paper of the wartime Coalition Government. I took the idea from that White Paper on its own merits. Quite frankly, an option of the kind suggested is not workable.
    Mr. S. Silverman: In view of the present state of manpower in the country, would not my right hon. Friend consider it desirable to review now those aspects of the retirement pension which penalise at the age of 65 those people who desire to go on working?
    Mr. Griffiths: I do not admit there is any penalty for those who wish to go on working beyond the age of 65. There is, in fact, an added increment which is not available beforehand. I am, however. keeping under close observation the working of this scheme and if I were to find that it did penalise people in this way, I should not hesitate to seek to bring about a change.
    Mrs. Castle: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that there is evidence in Lancashire and elsewhere that this increment is inadequate as an incentive to prevent people from retiring when, in fact,
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    the country wants them to go on working?
    Mr. Griffiths: No. The evidence is not that it is inadequate. In fact, 64 per cent. of the men who reach the age of 65 do not retire but remain at work. The increment in our scheme is double that which was proposed in the Beveridge Report. If I felt that the increment could be further increased as an inducement to people not to retire, I would certainly consider such a proposition.
    Sir Frank Sandersonasked the Minister of National Insurance whether he is aware that Mr. Charles Penn, 82, Meadvale Road, Ealing, was a contributor under the old National Insurance Act from its inception, under which he was to receive 10s. a week pension on attaining the age of 65 and his wife a similar sum on attaining the age of 60; and since under the new Act Mr. and Mrs. Penn are eligible for no payments, under what regulations are they and similar cases covered.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The benefits of the National Insurance scheme for which Mr. and Mrs. Penn may be eligible are explained in the full letter which my hon. Friend sent to the hon. Member on 1st September. The National Insurance (Pensions, Existing Contributors) (Transitional) Regulations, No. 612, 1948, set out the way in which pensions contributions under the previous schemes are to be counted for the purpose of title to the more valuable benefits of the new scheme.
    Sir F. Sanderson: Is the Minister aware that not only Mr. and Mrs. Penn, but countless other people similarly situated, regard the attitude of his Ministry as a breach of contract since they receive no pension, for which they have consistently paid their contributions year after year?
    Mr. Griffiths: No, Sir. What has happened is that the old contract has been replaced by a new one which is very much better.

    Assistance Applications
    Mrs. Braddockasked the Minister of National Insurance the number of applications received for national assistance from persons mentally defective or permanently crippled, living at home, who have not previously had assistance; the amount paid to date; and the number refused.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The Board inform me that they are paying many allowances to people in the categories mentioned by my hon. Friend, but they could not ascertain the precise number of applications, the number of such allowances in payment, or the total amount, without a special inquiry.
    Mrs. Braddock: Is my right hon. Friend convinced that it is sufficiently known by people in these two categories that this benefit is available to them, and can he suggest any other way in which it could be more widely publicised than at present?
    Mr. Griffiths: We have taken every step which is open to us to make known to everybody concerned the details of this provision, which is one of the best features of the new National Assistance Act.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Catering Wages
    Mr. J. Morrisonasked the Minister of Labour what representations he has received from working men's clubs regarding their inability to pay their stewards the rates recently laid down by the Catering Wages Boards; and what steps he proposes to take in such cases.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. George Isaacs): I have received no such representations since the order was made.

    University Students
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Labour what arrangements exist at the appointments offices for university undergraduates to secure employment during their vacation.
    Mr. Isaacs: There are organised schemes for temporary work in agriculture, and my Department provides free railway warrants to students travelling to and from this work. Students who apply to employment exchanges, or other offices of my Department, for temporary work outside agriculture, are submitted to such vacancies for temporary staff as may be notified, but the demand for their services is small. The National Union of Students has been approved as an employment agency for this special purpose.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: In view of the straitened circumstances of many undergraduates, will the right hon. Gentleman impress on appointments officers that they should pay particular attention to giving help where they can in this matter?
    Mr. Isaacs: It is quite unnecessary to do that, because they are giving every possible help. We realise the circumstances of the students, and are anxious to help them.

    Disabled Persons, South Wales (Committee)
    Mr. Daggarasked the Minister of Labour whether he has any further information about the Committee on the Resettlement of Disabled Persons in the South Wales and Monmouthshire Development Area, to which he referred in answer to a Question on 13th July last.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards): Yes, Sir. I am now able to announce the names of the members of the Committee and, with the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the names:
    Chairman: Mr. R. J. Humphreys, C.B.E.. Ministry of Labour and National Service, Dominions House, Queen Street, Cardiff.
    Chairmen of Disablement Advisory Committees:

    Bridgend—Major Clifford S. Woodward. J.P., Laleston Cottage, Bridgend.

    Aberdare—Mr. J. W. Grant, 14, Richmond Road, Mountain Ash.

    Ammanford—Mr. E. C. Rees, Windy Ridge. Forest, Pontardulais.

    Tony pandy—Mr. Arthur W. Mayne, "Lyn-wood," Llwynypia, Rhondda.

    Swansea—Mr. C. J. Cellan-Jones, M.D., F.R.C.S., The Knoll, Uplands, Swansea.

    Newport—Mr. W. L. Victor Harding, "St.Audries," Malpas, Newport.

    Cardiff—Councillor William Jeffcott. 20. Grove Place, Penarth.

    Industrial representatives:

    Mr. Cyril Rosser, Divisional Organiser, Amalgamated Engineering Union, 20, Pembroke Terrace, Cardiff.

    Mr. William Arthur, National Union of Mineworkers, 2, St. Andrew's Crescent, Cardiff.

    Mr. T. R. Martin, Metal Box Limited, Neath.

    Mr. Gomer Evans, Divisional Labour Director, National Coal Board, Institute of Engineers, Park Place, Cardiff.

    Representatives of other interests:

    National Advisory Council—Mr. W. H.
    Crews, Bradford Street, Caerphilly.

    Maes-yr-haf Settlement—Mr. F. B. Naylor, Maes-yr-haf Educational Settlement, Trealaw, Glam.

    British Legion—Captain Nelson M. Price, O.B.E., J.P., "Cilfoden," Pant, Dowlais.

    Other persons to be invited to attend meetings:

    Mr. David Badham, Troedyrhiw Farm Ystrad Mynach, a Director of the Disabled Persons Employment Corporation, Limited.

    Mr. W. R. Morgan, Executive Officer, Disabled Persons Employment Corporation Limited, 24, Windsor Place, Cardiff.

  NATIONAL SERVICE (CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS)
  Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Labour how many young men and women, respectively, have claimed exemption as conscientious objectors to military service since the passing of the National Service Acts to the nearest convenient date; the number granted unconditional exemption; the number granted conditional exemption; and the number prosecuted and sentenced for refusing to accept the conditions imposed by the tribunals.
  Mr. Isaacs: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the answer:
  From 3rd September, 1939, to 30th June, 1948, the latest date for which figures are available, 64,168 men and 2,555 women had provisionally registered as conscientious objectors, 3,809 men and 105 women were registered unconditionally by the tribunals and 29,362 men and 776 women were registered on condition that they took up specified civilian work. Three hundred and forty-nine men, and 88 women, were prosecuted and convicted for failing to comply with their conditions of registration.
  In addition, 4,392 men were registered as conscientious objectors before 3rd September, 1939, under the Military Training Act, 1939. Eighty-one were registered unconditionally by tribunals, and 163 were registered on condition that they took up specified civilian work.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Post-War Credits
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will review the present position whereby post-war credits are paid to men over 65 and women over 60 years of age, and arrange for these credits to be paid at an earlier date in cases of special hardship; and under what powers deduction of taxation due is made when post-war credit payments are being calculated.
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to the general repayment of postwar credits; an'd whether he will now consider proposals for the repayment of these credits in deserving cases, in particular those of ex-Service men.
    Mr. Wyattasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider releasing post-war credits to totally disabled persons.
    Mrs. Middletonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider if it is now possible to pay to war widows the post-war credits belonging to their late husbands.
    Mr. Ralph Morleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will release the post-war credits of deceased husbands to widows in straightened circumstances.
    Mr. Mulveyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when it is proposed to introduce legislation by which young people holding Income Tax credit notes will be entitled to payment.
    Mr. Wadsworthasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make payment of Income Tax post-war credit to men who are 60 or over on 1st January, 1948.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Cripps): The payment of postwar credits is governed by the provisions of the Finance Acts of 1946 and 1947, which limit their release to men over 65 and women over 60, and there is no power to authorise any exception in favour of individual cases. The difficulties in the way of legislation to allow hardship as a criterion for payment have been explained to the House on more than one occasion.

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    As regards the second part of Question 45, I assume that the hon. Member has in mind the arrangement whereby arrears of tax outstanding at the end of the year 1945–46 in P.A.Y.E. cases are set off against the post-war credit for that year. This special arrangement, which was announced by my predecessor to the House on 29th October, 1946, was necessitated by the pressure of work in tax offices, and applied to that particular year only.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: In view of the large number of Questions which have been asked and which indicate the great public interest in this matter, would the Chancellor of the Exchequer see to it that between now and the next Budget some arrangement is made by which relief can be given in cases of hardship, more particularly in view of the fact that the ground that this might result in inflation no longer exists? As regards the second part of my Question, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman state the specific instrument under which this deduction was made?
    Sir S. Cripps: In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, I cannot forecast what may happen in the next Budget. As regards the second part of the Question, it was made in accordance with the announcement, from which, if the hon. Member will refer to it, he will find the particulars he wishes.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is it not possible to introduce a regulation that would permit of payments under special conditions? Is my right hon. and learned friend aware that I have sent him notice of the case of a man lying in hospital whose wife is in very straitened circumstances and that payment of post-war credit would be of great advantage in this case?
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir, this cannot be done by regulation.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it is manifestly unfair that the Treasury should have been entitled to take tax from these post-war credits while the taxpayers are not entitled to surrender post-war credits to pay taxation?
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir.
    Sir W. Smithers: Why are the Government allowed to take post-war credits in
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    payment of Income Tax when the taxpayer is behind with his payments? Why should the Government be allowed to use post-war credits for their disastrous policy, while the ordinary person, especially the ex-Service man, is not allowed to use the money?
    Sir S. Cripps: The reason the deduction was made was explained in the statement I have cited.
    Mr. Austin: If my right hon. and learned friend finds it impossible in the near future to consider cases of hardship on their merits, will he consider the value of reducing the age limit of those concerned by five or 10 years, to help a very large number of people who are suffering individual hardship?
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in my constituency there is a man who has been given only a few months to live and who has £28 in post-war credits, with which he can do nothing, but is suffering hardship? Is there nothing which can be done in that case?
    Sir S. Cripps: Nothing can be done without legislation in such cases.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer from when and at what rate interest will be payable on the amount of post-war credits not yet paid.
    Sir S. Cripps: It is not proposed to pay interest on these credits.
    Sir W. Smithers: Would not any bank or private firm be hauled before the law courts if it behaved in the way the Government have behaved in regard to post-war credits?
    Sir S. Cripps: Certainly not, if there had never been any understanding that interest would be paid.

    Foreign Travel (Sterling)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the British Railways Executive advertise that reserved seats in French and English trains can be paid for in

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    sterling at their Paris office; and whether he has authorised this contravention of the regulation that sterling must not be spent abroad.
    Sir S. Cripps: The answer to both parts of the Question is "No, Sir."
    Mr. Keeling: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman going to prosecute British Railways for breaking the law for the last 10 months? Is he aware that I have in my hand the British Railways Continental Handbook, which on one page says that sterling must not be spent abroad, yet on another invites people to spend sterling on reserving seats?
    Sir S. Cripps: I think the mistake is in the hon. Member's reading of the document. It is setting out the price of reserved seats in sterling. Of course, if that is paid in Paris, it has to be paid in francs.
    Mr. Keeling: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that British Railways themselves connived at a breach of the law by accepting 2s. from me for reserving a seat?
    Sir S. Cripps: If the hon. Member will send me particulars of the crime, I will have it inquired into.
    Mr. Keelingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will relax the regulation that sterling must not be spent abroad so as to permit travellers by the through continental services from London via Ostend to Germany, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Switzerland, Austria and Italy to buy meals and drinks in Belgian dining cars.
    Sir S. Cripps: Incidental expenses on Belgian dining cars should be paid for in Belgian francs and not in sterling notes. If a traveller is proceeding by this route on a journey for which the provision of currency has been authorised, he may obtain, on application, Belgian francs as part of his allocation for this purpose.
    Mr. Keeling: Is the Chancellor aware that there is no reference to this provision of Belgian francs in such cases in the regulations, which say that Belgian currency will not be given?
    Sir S. Cripps: I think that is a mistake. In a case where travel takes place
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    through Belgium and it is necessary to buy a meal or other things in Belgium, arrangements can be provided for that.
    Mr. Keeling: The regulation does not say so.

    Overseas Gifts (Purchase Tax)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will waive the payment of Purchase Tax to the extent of 25s. levied by him on a parcel containing one table-cloth and a number of table-napkins to the value of £1 17s. 6d. sent to a lady, particulars of whom have been furnished to him, by her husband, serving in the Royal Canadian Navy.
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir. A general concession for gifts would mean unfair discrimination in favour of imports, besides opening the door to abuse, and I cannot make individual exceptions.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what abuse would follow from permitting small gifts of this sort to be sent by husbands to their wives in this country?
    Sir S. Cripps: It could not be limited to gifts sent by husbands to wives, but would very easily open the door to a large importation of goods by post.

    Tobacco Duty Relief Tokens
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will arrange for the issue of tobacco duty relief tokens to a 90-years-old old age pensioner, particulars of whom have been forwarded to him, notwithstanding the fact that this gentleman's old age pension is paid direct to the Surrey County Council.
    Sir S. Cripps: The matter has been further investigated and I understand that the gentleman concerned has now made an application for a pension which, if granted, will entitle him to tobacco tokens if application is made to the Post Office at which he draws his pension.

    Social Services (Cost)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will say in

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    terms of pence per £ in Income Tax what is the cost to the taxpayer of the National Health Service and the National Insurance scheme, respectively.
    Sir S. Cripps: The National Health Service and the National Insurance schemes will have been in force for the last nine months of the current financial year. It is estimated that during this period the cost to the taxpayer of the former will be equivalent to an Income Tax of about 1s. 0 ½d. and that the contributions of the Exchequer to the latter will be equivalent to one of about 8 ½d.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will the Chancellor agree that this is an unwarrantable Socialist device for relieving people of their money to pay for services of which they may or may not wish to avail themselves?
    Sir S. Cripps: I think it is a very valuable service for the public.

    Patent Royalties (French Taxation)
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what taxation is paid in France on royalties paid to patentees of British nationality; and if he is satisfied that this does not exceed the taxation on royalties paid to patentees of United States nationality.
    Sir S. Cripps: Patent royalties payable to British nationals are chargeable to tax in France at a rate, I understand, of 16.8 per cent., subject in appropriate cases to a relief by way of personal allowances. The same rate of tax is imposed on French nationals. Under a double taxation convention between the United States of America and France, each country has agreed in general to exempt from tax patent royalties flowing to residents of the other country and, accordingly, patent royalties payable from France to United States nationals are exempt from French tax. The United Kingdom has for some time been awaiting the convenience of French representatives to open negotiations for an extension of the existing limited taxation treaty between the two countries, an extension under which reciprocal exemption for patent royalties would, it is hoped, be included.

    French Miners (British Union's Donation)
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Toothasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what permission is required for the transmission of funds by a British trade union to persons overseas; whether he is aware that the executive of the Scottish branch of the National Union of Mineworkers has announced its intention to send £1,000 to French miners on strike; and whether any permission to do so has yet been granted.
    Mr. Donnerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the executive of the Scottish area of the National Union of Mineworkers has decided to send a donation of £1,000 to the French miners now on strike; and whether he will give an assurance that foreign exchange for this purpose has not and will not be granted.
    Mr. Draysonasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if the application received from the executive committee of the Scottish area of the National Union of Mineworkers for permission to remit £1,000 to the Confédération Générale du Travail of France has been granted.
    Sir S. Cripps: I have this matter under consideration, and hope to be in a position to give an answer to the hon. Members in a day or two.
    Mr. Gallacher: Might I ask the Chancellor to remember the days long gone by when he used to associate with me on the platform, and remembering those days to recollect what the Leader of the House called our international obligations, and see that they are retained intact?
    Sir S. Cripps: I shall take all relevant matters into account.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: On a point of Order. Is it not usual, when a Member rises in his place on any particular issue, for him to declare his personal interest in the matter?
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: Does the Chancellor's answer mean that an application has been made?
    Sir S. Cripps: An application is now under consideration.
    Sir T. Moore: But no money will be sent?

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  KING'S SPEECH

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS
    [SIXTH DAY]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [26th October]:
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as follows:
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[Mr. Bowden.]
    Question again proposed.

  NATIONALISATION
  3.31 p.m.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Address, at the end, to add:
  "But humbly regret that, notwithstanding the grave international situation and the continuing gap in our overseas trade, Your Majesty's Government should obstinately persist in a policy of nationalisation which has already imposed heavy burdens on consumers and taxpayers alike and is impeding the enterprise and initiative which is essential to our recovery."
  Some little time ago the Lord President of the Council stated that it was up to the nationalisers to prove their case that there would be public advantage in nationalisation. No doubt that statement has been somewhat embarrassing to some of his supporters, who regard nationalisation as a remedy taken for granted and are merely concerned with the speed or the method. That is presumably why last week he was at pains to remind the House that it was up to the opponents of nationalisation to show that it was not necessary. He seemed to think that that disposed of the question and placed us in an insurmountable difficulty. I readily accept the challenge, and, indeed, the Amendment is specifically designed to do that.
  Broadly speaking, there are two answers to the right hon. Gentleman's argument, one in the moral sphere, which I am bound to say I do not expect to appeal very much to hon. Members opposite. It has always hitherto been regarded as a principle of British justice
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  that a man was not condemned until he had been proved guilty—that he, was assumed until then to be innocent. The right hon. Gentleman's attitude is rather like putting a man in the dock because one does not like his face, and then telling him that he has to advance strong reasons why he should not be hanged. That was in fact the principle which was pursued in the "people's courts" under Hitler, and it was a procedure followed with considerable success to himself by Mr. Vishinsky in an earlier office which he used to hold. Its adoption today by the right hon. Gentleman here is proof, if proof were needed, of the descent towards totalitarianism which acceptance of Socialist dogma inevitably involves.
  For the purposes of our argument and Debate today I suggest that there is a much more practical answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question, namely, what is the public interest today? Surely it consists of two things, at all events in the domestic sphere. The first is the restoration of our finances from the disorder in which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster left them last year. The second is to increase our production.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a paper which he has just begun to circulate to industrialists, called "Bulletin for Industry," defined this task as follows:
  "Increased exports must do most of the work of making this country independent of outside assistance by the time foreign aid ceases. This calls in turn for increased production, and more particularly for more efficient production in the sense of reducing costs and making the best use of available man-power."
  I do not think that anyone in this House would disagree with the Chancellor, and we on these benches are quite content to take the Chancellor's statement as the test of Socialist accomplishment during the last three years, and see where it leads us.
  The Chancellor has recently been making reviews of our economic situation at home which have a more optimistic tinge. Recovery has indeed been noticeable, but it has been recovery from a very low level, in fact the lowest level attained under the regime of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster who, I understand, is speak to after me. The fact that we have still so far to go after all our efforts in recent months, shows clearly how low we had

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  sunk in the days to which I have just referred. Yet the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is, if rumour has it correctly, one of the men who does not hesitate to urge on the country the nationalisation of steel.
  According to the broadcast of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we should stand on our own feet in 1952, but only— let the House remark— at the present level of imports and the present standard of living, which the Chancellor himself, in a speech or at a Press conference in America, described as being lower than it had been in 1947. That is a very different theory from the exuberant statements of some of the Chancellor's colleagues, in particular from the sort of speech which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster used to make. Speaking two years ago, in October, he said:
  "A year or two hence we shall have overcome all the worst shortages of food, clothes, coal and steel, and in a large measure, I hope, of houses."
  The other thing which I beg the House to note about the Chancellor's speeches, especially the one he made at the end of the short Session, and which apparently created so much enthusiasm among hon. Members opposite, and cheered them up so much— goodness knows they needed a bit of cheering at the time— was the high praise and glowing tribute paid to private enterprise. In the first edition of this "Bulletin for Industry," dated September, and regarded no doubt as a pep talk to industrialists, we find steel picked out as one of those industries which have made notable progress, together with engineering, vehicles, textiles, chemicals, etc., all of them industries run under private enterprise, all of them having achieved substantial progress despite planning. The only industry referred to in that "Bulletin for Industry" of September, in which the target had not been reached, and of which nothing good could be said, was the nationalised industry of coal.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer also sees fit from time to time to lecture industrialists on the need for better organisation in their industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hear an appreciative "Hear, hear" from hon. Members opposite. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman or they ever stop to think how much more effective, and how much more
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  acceptable, such advice would be to the recipients and to the hearers if they saw any evidence of his advice being addressed to or paid attention to by any of the right hon. Gentlemen who are his colleagues on the Front Bench?
  How would it be for him to probe, for example, into the administration of the nationalised industries, or, indeed, for that matter, into the administration of their Departments by some of the right hon. Gentleman on those Benches? What a wide field he would find for reforms which would not only alleviate his financial problems as Chancellor of the Exchequer but would also help the work of the Minister of Labour in his search for manpower and, by reducing the cost of some of the fundamentals of industry such as coal and electricity, would undoubtedly help manufacturers to reach more quickly the target which the Chancellor has set them. Dare I suggest coal as one of the first subjects of inquiry so far as nationalised industries are concerned? Or the administration, so far as the Government Departments are concerned, of the Minister of Health?
  We have now had two years of nationalised coal, or very nearly two years. I wonder if the Lord President or the Chancellor of the Exchequer is particularly pleased with the result so far? We had a target set for coal last year, a target of 200 million, a target in itself for this year of 25 million tons below what the T.U.C. said then would have been a reasonable target for a year ago. And even that target is not going to be reached. If we look at labour relations, what about the myth that a man would work very much harder and more willingly for the nation than for private enterprise? I commend anyone who still believes that to read the report of the National Coal Board for 1947. They have a deplorable story to tell. It is ironic, to say the least of it, that their action in instituting the five-day week should have cost the nation, in the loss of output from strikes on that very subject, 800,000 tons of coal, and, at the end of two years of national administration, that between the beginning of this year and October we should still be losing three-quarters of a million tons by disputes.
  Mr. Fernyhough: How much was lost in 1926?
  Mr. Hudson: I am not talking about what happened in 1926. I am sorry if I have not made myself clear, but I am endeavouring to apply the Chancellor's test of efficiency to the industries that have already been nationalised and that is what we are mainly concerned with.
  What about absenteeism and output? I refer again to the Chancellor's paper for October and I find there, under coal the statement:
  "Output per man shift, though greater than last year, has not improved since the beginning of the year. Absenteeism has been increasing in recent months and is greater than in the corresponding period last year."
  It so happens that immediately following that particular paragraph on coal this bulletin refers to steel:
  "The output of steel ingots and castings recovered quickly from the effects of the holidays."
  This is October:
  "The September average was 296,800 tons a week, equivalent to nearly 15½ million tons a year, compared with the target for the year of 14½ million."
  But if we look at the paragraph on coal we find that the target for September was 4.2 million tons a week and the coal industry reached an output of only 3.8 million tons a week. Yet we are told that the coal industry is such a success as a nationalised industry that the experiment ought to be tried again with steel. How very much stronger would be the position of the right hon. Gentleman and his friends when they come to discuss this in a few weeks' time if the figures were reversed, and if they were able to point to coal having exceeded its target and steel having failed to reach it.
  The House will remember that the Chancellor said that one of the targets that industry ought to set itself was the reduction of costs. What about costs in coalmining? In 1939 the pithead cost of coal was 17s. 11d. per ton. At the end of 1946, at the end of private enterprise, it was 39s. 4d. At the end of 1947 it had risen to 43s. 8d. and in mid-1948 it had risen to 47s. 1d. There is not much sign there of a reduction in costs as the result of more efficient administration. The Coal Board Report shows that for 1947 on coal, apart from ancillaries, the loss was £9 million. That is apart from the amount of £12 million required for the interim income payment. The Board
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  themselves point out that that figure of £12 million was only half the normal profit being made by private enterprise when the mines were under private ownership. Therefore, the true comparison ought to be between the loss under the Coal Board of £9 million and the profit under private enterprise of £24 million.
  There was a great flourish of trumpets a short while ago on the part of the authorities of the coal industry, including the Minister. They said, "It is true we made a loss in the first year, but as a matter of fact now we are making a small profit." If one applies the tests which the Chancellor suggests are good enough for private industry to what happens with coal, one notes that that so-called profit was not the result of reducing costs. The only reason for the so-called profit was that in the interim they substantially increased the selling price of coal. We are told also that they broke even on the second quarter, but I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us what is the position for the third quarter. Are they still running a profit or has that small profit disappeared and been converted into a loss?
  Then we have the whole question of organisation. Again I emphasise that the Chancellor says that private industries should take steps to improve their organisation. We have had the Burrows Report. We are told that that report is to be published in a short while. I am glad to hear it. But what we on these Benches should like to have and we see no reason why we should not have it, is not only the final conclusion of the Burrows Committee but the evidence which was submitted to that Committee. The coal industry now belongs to the nation and the nation has a right to know what is being done with its property. There is no conceivable reason why this House should not be given the full evidence that was submitted to the Burrows Committee. I can quite understand the reluctance to provide it. I do not suppose we shall be given it. I expect we shall be told that it would be against the public interest for it to be revealed. The real reason is that if it was published, this House and the nation would have overwhelming evidence of the bad administration in the first instance of the National Coal Board's set-up.

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  I do not want to detain the House by going into the details of the other nationalised industries; but if we take civil aviation we find the same story. There was a loss of £10 million in 1946–47. The loss for 1947–48 has not yet been announced, but it has been indicated by the Government that it will amount to £11 million. It is certain that for 1948–49 the loss will not be kept within the advertised subsidy figure of £8 million. It would perhaps be unfair to ask for full details about the results of the nationalisation of electricity, because that has taken place only comparatively recently. However, all the indications one can get are to the effect that the inevitable difficulties of nationalisation are already making themselves felt. We have the usual proliferation of committees set up. Indeed, I was told of the case of an employee who normally under private enterprise used to go to his immediate superior and have a discussion for a matter of 10 or 15 minutes and then get a decision. Now he must submit his proposals to a committee and, believe it or not, he must submit 90 copies because of the number of members of the various committees to whom his proposals must go before they are finally considered. There is a slowing down of decisions. There is an increase in administrative headquarters staff and, of course, there is the usual addition of luxurious offices and so forth. Certainly, there are no signs of even the beginning of the advantages that it was alleged would accrue from that.
  I note that the Minister of Transport is present. We have not yet heard the results of the first year's working of the nationalisation of railways but, if reports are true, current revenues are insufficient to meet current operating costs, quite apart from any sums required to pay interest on the moneys borrowed from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. So much for nationalised industries. I suggest that they do not come very well out of the tests that the Chancellor suggested should be applied.
  Before I leave this subject, I will give one example of the result, from my own constituency, because it represents in microcosm the results of nationalisation. I refer to the Fire Service. The cost of the Fire Service in Southport in 1938–39 which fell on the rates was £2,813. The
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  cost this year is £18,650. The consumers, the ratepayers, are obviously suffering. The cost to the taxpayer in 1938 was nil. The cost to the Exchequer this year is £6,219. The cost to the rates has gone up from ¾d. in the £ to 4¾4d. in the £. Then there is the question of the Minister of Labour and manpower. In 1.939 Southport Fire Service was manned by 18 part-time men regarded as equivalent to four full-time men.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the corresponding figures for Bootle?
  Mr. Hudson: I will come to that. At Southport there were 18 part-time men who were regarded as the equivalent of four full-time men. Today there are 41 full-time men, one typist and 18 part-time men. The fire risk at Southport is exactly the same as it was before. It is a fact, I believe, that the total Fire Service of Southport is substantially greater than that in many adjoining Lancashire industrial towns where the fire risk is very much greater.
  Our Amendment refers to frustration. There is not one manufacturer and not one workman living in Southport who works either in Liverpool, Manchester or anywhere else, who is not aware of this sort of thing. I made representations to the Home Secretary and I got no change out of him. I wrote to the Minister of Labour thinking that he at least would be interested in view of his appeals for manpower and his continuous statements that we are so short of men. I thought that at least he would be interested in seeing that these 41 men were put to some useful work instead of kicking their heels in idleness at Southport and becoming thoroughly bored and demoralised. What was his answer? It was:
  "As regards the Fire Service, this, of course, is primarily the concern of the Home Secretary. As I understand the matter, the standards of manning now being adopted at Southport were recommended by the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council appointed under the Act."
  That is all.
  Similar cases could be mentioned. There is the case of the waste involved by the Ministry of Transport in keeping a ship with 40 men on board lying for months in Southampton Water doing

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  nothing. When it is suggested that the number of men was excessive, the Minister of Transport hides behind the authority of the captain and says that the captain of the ship thought that this was the minimum necessary. I dare say it was, but no Minister who really had the interests of the situation at heart and who really believed that manpower was short would have allowed either the men on that ship or the Ten in the Fire Service at Southport to spend the whole of the Summer in idleness.
  Let us deal next with the administration of His Majesty's Ministers. We will take housing as an example. The Minister of Health is going about the country saying that he has now built 750,000 separate houses and broken the back of the housing problem. I wonder how many people listening to these speeches and reading the figure of 750,000 appreciate what that figure consists of. I wonder how many realise that of the total 30,000 are requisitioned houses, 130,000 were houses damaged during the war and since repaired, 100,000 were created by sub-dividing existing houses and 25,000-odd consist of temporary huts in Service camps. Of the balance 155,000 are temporary houses whose life is only 10 years: they are houses which the Minister of Health before he took office used to jeer at and call steel boxes.
  Mr. Follick: Can the right hon. Gentleman mention any country in the world where there is not a great shortage of houses?
  Mr. Hudson: I am concerned with the administration of the Minister of Health in his Department. He has no right to delude the public into thinking that he has in fact built 750,000 new houses.—[HON. MEMBERS: "He has not said so."] —when he has had to pad the figures by the means I have described. Then he says that he has broken the back of the housing problem. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Nobody can deny that he has said that. He has said it repeatedly. I say that far from having broken the back of the housing problem he has not yet built enough houses since he took office to take care of the ordinary wastage of houses through the process of their having reached the end of their natural useful life. I would much sooner take the
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  figures given by Mr. Coppock, who said only the other day that the real need for houses at present was three million.
  In the course of achieving this miserable target, the Minister has completely disorganised the industry. He has not only completely disorganised the industry, but he has enormously inflated the cost of houses, and, if any one has any doubt on the subject, I recommend him to read the Report of the Girtwood Committee on the costs of housing which was appointed by the right hon. Gentleman himself. The Minister attacks the building industry and the men engaged in it for low productivity, whereas the Girtwood Committee proves overwhelmingly, from the evidence put before it, that the real fault was with the Minister and his administration. It was the case that materials and men were distributed over much too wide an area, which resulted in building taking too long and costs being much too high.
  Some of the most interesting figures in that Report are those showing the relation of the cost of houses to the national income, a matter with which again I suggest the Chancellor of the Exchequer is immediately concerned. The Committee points out that the percentage being spent today on building houses out of the national income is just about the same as it was pre-war, but that, for that same percentage, we get only half the number of houses, and that is the direct result of the maladministration of the right hon. Gentleman. What about the cost? The Committee pointed out that the cost of these houses to the Exchequer alone is at the rate of £7,500,000 a year and is likely to rise by another £3 million a year each year from now onwards in which 150,000 houses are built. No doubt, £7,500,000 is regarded by the Minister of Health as a mere bagatelle in relation to his miscalculation of the cost of the National Health Service, but it is a figure which definitely will have to be paid and which will be an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer for the next 60 years.
  In my view, and in the view of those of us who sit on this side of the House, it has been one of the greatest misfortunes for this country that, after each war, it should have had, as Minister of Housing, a present member of the Labour Party. It is quite true that Dr. Addison

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  as he then was, was sacked, and there can be little doubt in the mind of any ordinary businessman that the quickest way to achieve three aims—first, to reorganise the building industry, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants; second, to get cheaper houses; and, third, to get less waste of manpower—would be for the Prime Minister, if he had the courage, to dismiss the present Minister of Health. Failing that, I suggest that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might devote some of his energies to investigating the administration of the Minister of Health. I have no doubt, however, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will find it very much easier to address exhortations to British businessmen than to tackle the Minister of Health on his own doorstep. The point I want to bring out is this: What right has a man who is responsible for such maladministration in his office to get up and recommend to the country the nationalisation of steel?
  Now I turn to manpower. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said in his speeches that we have reached the limits of available manpower and that, therefore, we cannot expect a substantial accession of manpower to the essential industries. It is quite impossible to agree that there is any substance in any such claim, when one looks round and sees the waste of manpower going on at the present time. I have just quoted two small instances, but every hon. Member in the House has similar instances within his own recollection. We have only to look at the docks in order to appreciate the maladministration of a Government Department. Let hon. Members look at the results of the operation of the National Dock Labour Corporation, which was set up with a flourish of trumpets. It is true that it has practically eliminated the casualisation of dock labour, but it certainly has not resulted in a quicker turn-round of ships. On the contrary, the time taken in British ports to turn round ships is many times what it was before the war. That results in increasing the cost of imported food and raw materials.
  Mr. Mellish: Has the right hon. Gentleman any figures to substantiate his statement with regard to the time of the turn-round of ships?
  Mr. Hudson: It is the common complaint of all shipowners.
  I turn now to another example of the failure of the Government to deal with manpower. If hon. Members will look at this Bulletin again, they will find statistics showing the failure of the Government to man up the essential industries to enable them to reach the end-year targets which they originally published. There is a gross shortage in the basic industries of 150,000 men, but, at the same time, in the distributive industries and in Government Departments, there is a substantial excess of men over those who, according to the Government, should have been in those industries by the end of the year. It is another example of the failure of the Government to carry out their own plans.
  Taken by and large, I suggest that this is a pretty sorry tale of three years of Socialist administration. It is the sort of story that was to be expected, for Socialists tend to treat nationalisation as an ideological remedy, whereas, of course, in fact, it is only one method of organisation among many, to achieve a particular aim. Its drawback is that it inevitably involves large administrative structures, exceptionally large overheads, slowness of decision and expensiveness in operation. That is essential in its very nature. The men at the top are bound to be a long way from the men doing the actual work at the bottom, and are unable to get their information except at second, third or even fifth hand. The House should mark well that this is a defect which is not peculiar only to nationalisation, for it is also noticeable in large private industries, and is particularly coming to be recognised in America where units get too large. Obviously, in the case of nationalised industries like coal and railways, they are by far, as far as the men employed in them are concerned, the largest industries in the world, and far greater than any private industry anywhere.
  Hon. Members opposite often accuse us of wanting to abolish all controls. I know of no responsible Member of my party who ever said such a thing. Obviously, in the conditions of the world today, it is impossible to go back to pre-war. It is inevitable that the State should play in our affairs a role much bigger than it used to do. Decisions on the balance of payments, for example,

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  are bound to be taken on a scale wholly inappropriate for any private industry, however large. In times of scarcity, there are occasions on which decisions as to supplies must be taken by the State on information that only the State can possess. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am very glad that I carry hon. Members opposite with me.
  Having made that admission, it still remains true that the future of our standard of living, and, indeed, our very ability to keep the crowded population of this island alive, depend on the 'efficiency with which British industry as a whole adapts itself to the appalling post-war international problems with which it is faced. That efficiency depends, in turn, on the initiative, enterprise and effort that individuals at all levels —and I emphasise at all levels, from the top right down to the bottom—in industry can be induced to put forth. But the experience of the last three years, I am sorry to say, shows that neither enterprise, nor initiative nor the evocation of maximum effort from the individuals therein engaged are the hallmarks of nationalised industries.
  As far as controls are concerned—which are the immediate responsibility of Ministers—some have been taken off long after they could safely have been dispensed with. Others, which we believe could safely be taken off, are still maintained, and those that are by common admission still necessary to be maintained are being administered in such a way as to increase the frustration of men engaged in industry, and to discourage their enterprise and initiative. We believe, therefore, that there is an overwhelming case against any further extension of this experiment of nationalisation, at all events by members of His Majesty's present Government.
  4.24 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Dalton): We had been led to expect a rather different speech from the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) from that which he has delivered. We had been led to expect that there would be more fireworks, more animation. I have often heard him speak; he has several styles, and it is for him, of course, to choose according to the occasion. This afternoon we were very much
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  interested, particularly towards the close of his speech, by what came very near to a confession- of faith, I will not say identical with that which many of my hon. Friends would make, but certainly nearer to them than to the faith of the old-fashioned Tories behind him who did not seem to me to be very enthusiastic when the right hon. Gentleman sat down.
  I wish to say a few words about the terms of the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has moved because it seems to me to be based upon a most inaccurate statement of facts which I should like to analyse. The right hon. Gentleman regrets that, notwithstanding various considerations, which I need not recite,
  "Your Majesty's Government should obstinately persist "—
  I will revert to that phrase in a moment—
  "in a policy of nationalisation which has already imposed"—
  I desire to draw the attention of the House to these words—.
  "heavy burdens on consumers and taxpayers alike, and is impeding the enterprise and iniative which is essential to our recovery."
  I venture to say that that statement has not been proved by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech, and cannot be proved. I propose to give a few facts to the House in support of my criticism of the Amendment.
  To begin with, a number of the services that we have nationalised in this Parliament were not referred to by the right hon. Gentleman at all. Therefore, I suppose that he has no criticism to make of them. I begin with the Bank of England, the nationalisation of which was our first act in this field in the first Session of this Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman did not mention the Bank of England in his speech at all. Therefore, I suppose he has no criticism to offer of the way in which the nationalised bank is being conducted. He will contradict me if I have misunderstood him. It is certainly the case that the Bank of England is imposing no burden on consumers or taxpayers. Indeed, so far as the taxpayers are concerned, the Treasury is receiving punctually every half year £870,000, which balances the payment made to the holders of the Treasury Stock issued to the previous stockholders. Therefore, there is no burden on the consumers and taxpayers, and the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment has no application at all to the Bank of England.

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  I will now pass to the second of the Measures which I myself had the honour to present to the House in the field of nationalisation — Cable and Wireless. Not a word was said about Cable and Wireless by the right hon. Gentleman. Therefore, I suppose, he has no criticism to offer of that nationalised service either.
  Mr. Brendan Bracken indicated dissent.
  Mr. Dalton: I am speaking to the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment. His colleague, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) is, I understand, going to address us tomorrow. The right hon. Member for Southport made no reference to Cable and Wireless. Therefore, I may be allowed to say a word about it. The new Board appointed by the Government is doing a very good job of work. Our public service is cheaper than the private service in the United States. One may send a message from New York for 1s. 3d. a word, and from London for 9d. a word.
  Mr. Bracken: That has always been the case.
  Mr. Dalton: I am talking about the present position under nationalisation, because the argument is that the condition of a lot of these industries has become worse since nationalisation. Perhaps I may be allowed to state a few facts about this nationalised service because the Amendment denounces nationalised services in general. It is proper that we should rebut that argument, case by case. There has been no increase in the charges of Cable and Wireless since it was nationalised, and, therefore, no increase in the burden on 'consumers as a result. In fact, as I have pointed out, our rates are cheaper than those of similar concerns in the United States. Whereas our nationalised service made a profit in the first year of its operation, Western Union and a number of other private enterprise cable companies in the United States recorded losses. Our service under nationalisation makes profits whereas similar American private enterprises make losses. The noble Lord the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) grins, but he cannot contradict me.
  Mr. Bracken: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would give us the source of his information, because the accounts of Cable and Wireless have not yet been published. Has he some special information?
  Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir. I will give it to the right hon. Gentleman. I have it here. It is entitled "Cable and Wireless Limited," Cmd. 7467, issued in July, 1948. The right hon. Gentleman can get it from the Vote Office. All the facts upon which I am drawing, except the facts concerning American experience, which I am taking from other sources but which are equally open to the right hon. Gentleman, are drawn from this White Paper. Perhaps if the Opposition had read this White Paper they would not have framed their Amendment quite in the terms they did.
  I wish to give one further illustration of the great success of this particular nationalised service. Directors' fees and emoluments in 1946, the last year of private ownership, were £48,806. Directors' fees and emoluments in 1947, the first year of public ownership, were £11,410 —less than one quarter of the cost of the swollen bureaucracy in the closing chapter of private enterprise in this field. If the Opposition were to come into power, would they repeal the Cable and Wireless Act? We should like to know. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Bournemouth will tell us tomorrow. I do not press for an answer now. It is a matter for consideration. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to read the White Paper before he answers. I would only remind the Opposition, before they answer, that the Cable and Wireless Act was passed in full agreement with all the other Governments of the Commonwealth who passed similar nationalising Measures.
  I now come to a case which was referred to by the right hon. Member for Southport, namely, civil aviation. Civil aviation is the only case in the whole field of nationalised industries in which a burden has been imposed upon the taxpayer. In all other cases, even if a deficit should arise on the working of the nationalised service, it is not borne by the taxpayer at all. It is borne by the industry itself, either from the resources of the industry or by temporary borrowings to be repaid over a short term. That is what the Acts of Parliament say, and that is what the practice is. But in the case of civil aviation, it is quite true that there

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  has been a substantial deficit of £10 million in the first year. The figures for the second year are not quite complete; everybody is guessing, and we shall see in due course how the figures come out. There will, at any rate, be a deficit not smaller than last year's—I agree to that at once—but this is the one case in the whole list where the taxpayer is paying a subsidy direct to the service.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman's thesis that because a loss is carried forward to the next year, it is not a loss?
  Mr. Dalton: No, Sir. I am arguing that if the taxpayer does not pay, it is not a burden on him. That is a perfectly simple point which I should have thought the hon. Gentleman, with his business experience, would understand.
  Mr. Fletcher: I do.
  Mr. Dalton: The Amendment drafted by the Opposition Front Bench—the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher) might have drafted it better—says that heavy burdens have been imposed upon the taxpayer. What I say is that only in the case of civil aviation has any burden been imposed on the taxpayer. That is the proposition and it can be defended by a study of the facts.
  Mr. Bracken: What about consumers?
  Mr. Dalton: I will deal with consumers in due course. I am talking about the taxpayer at the moment. I am making a perfectly frank avowal to the right hon. Gentleman that this is a case where there is a burden falling on the taxpayer, but I go on to say that it is no new thing for subsidies in the form of taxation to be paid towards civil aviation, either in peace or in war, whether under public ownership or under private ownership. Before the war civil aviation was at a much earlier stage of development, of course, and on a much smaller scale, but before the war subsidies were paid by the taxpayer to the private civil air lines, and subsidies are being paid today, sometimes openly and sometimes in a concealed form, to civil airlines in a great number of countries in many parts of the world. This is irrespective of whether the service is being conducted through a private or public agency.
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  The plain truth is that at the present time, in the present state of our knowledge and development of civil aviation, it is very difficult under any conditions to run such services at a profit. Therefore, subsidies are very common. In many cases, of course, the subsidy is paid in a concealed form through a contract for the carriage of mails at an artificial price. We do not do that. Our subsidy is perfectly straightforward and unconcealed.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House the figures of directors' fees in civil aviation in the year before the war and now?
  Mr. Dalton: Not without notice. No doubt they are larger now. I should expect them to be larger now because the whole thing is on a much larger scale. I do not think that is on all fours with the interesting figures, as I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman found them, which I gave about Cable and Wireless. Those figures were not in respect of prewar and post-war, with a great gap between; they referred to the year before and the year after public ownership had been introduced—successive years.
  On civil aviation I should like to say a few words specifically, because it is the one item in which the right hon. Gentleman has got a case so far as the taxpayer is concerned. There is no doubt that critics of British civil aviation have been very insistent upon the deficits that have been incurred, and I do not blame them, but great achievements have also been accomplished by the three Corporations. There is not at the present time a trunk route in the world on which the British civil ensign is not flying. We have introduced a service on all the trunk routes all over the world, in spite of the difficulties that we have had to face owing to the fact that during the war, when many of our competitors, the Americans and others, were concentrating on improving civil aircraft types, we were concentrating on combat aircraft and had to put our civil aviation into cold storage. It was part of our war effort to do that.
  In that time we produced some of the finest combat aircraft in the world, both bombers and fighters, and I have no doubt that it will not be long—it should be only a matter of a few years—before

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  we are able to catch up on the civil types and prove that we can put into the air as good British-built machines as the machines put up by any other country in the world. We are admittedly in a transitional stage, and the effects of the war are particularly marked in this field of civil aircraft construction.
  None the less, these deficits must be reduced, and it is the intention of the Government to take effective steps to reduce them. While fostering the due development of civil aviation, my noble Friend the Minister of Civil Aviation is making it his special task to reduce these deficits as far and rapidly as possible. Under the stimulus of my noble Friend, the Corporations, are now showing great energy in overhauling their arrangements. Both B.O.A.C. and B.E.A.C. are engaged in a thorough review of their organisation at the present time. It may well be that it has become top-heavy and overmanned. Mr. Whitney Straight has placed on Sir Miles Thomas, who is now deputy-chairman of B.O.A.C.—a man with a fine reputation in business, whom I personally have met on many occasions and for whom I have a high regard—the executive responsibility for carrying through this reorganisation. I hope and believe that his efforts will be crowned with success.
  It is no good making sanguine predictions in this difficult and unpredictable field of civil aviation, but my noble Friend and the Government are determined that every possible weakness shall be eliminated by the beginning of the financial year 1949-50. That is our aim, and I hope and believe that the socialised Corporations, which have done fine work up to the present time and have not had their full share of praise, will from that time onwards be free from the criticisms which have been passed upon them on financial and other grounds.
  That is all I wish to say on civil aviation and I turn to coal, about which the right hon. Gentleman had a good deal to say. The first year's report of the National Coal Board—he said he had read that, so he has been reading more than his right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken)—is, I think we can all agree, a very interesting document. It gives a great deal more information about the coal industry than
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  the private owners ever gave in the old days. This is all to the good.
  It is quite true that the first year's working shows a deficit. It did not fall on the taxpayer. It was covered partly by the resources of the industry itself and partly by short-term borrowing. I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite understand this point, which I keep trying to make in simple language. I will try to put it colloquially. The taxpayer coughed up nothing at all for coal in the first year. In the second year, in the first two quarters, as the right hon Gentleman said, there have been small surpluses. I have asked my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, sitting beside me, about the third quarter. The figures for the third quarter have not yet been received, but they will be published as soon as they are received. There will be no concealment, but at the moment we do not know the answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question; we hope it will be available soon.
  The first two quarters show small surpluses. Why was it that we had a deficit last year? The answer is extremely simple. The first year's deficit was largely due to improved conditions for the miners. I will enumerate them: the five-day week, the increased minimum wage, and increases for deputies and others, local wage adjustments, overtime extensions, holiday pay and the free use of pithead baths. This is the reason why there was a deficit in the first year. These increased labour costs were deliberately incurred on behalf of the Government by the National Coal Board. They were deliberately incurred because they were both right in themselves and because they were necessary if we are to maintain the labour force in the pits. There is no need for any doubt or concealment in the matter. It was necessary to give the miners a square deal at long last.
  Had this not been done, the labour force in the pits would certainly have dwindled and shrunk even further than it has done. In the old days in the mining districts there was little else a man or a boy could do except go down the pits. Men stayed in the pits, even though the conditions were bad and the wages low, because there was nowhere else they could go. Today we have full employment. We have had it for three years and there is no sign of its abating. In

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  these conditions of full employment there are alternative opportunities open—that is, alternatives to the pit. Therefore, if it is necessary, as it is, not only on moral grounds but on very good economic grounds also, to maintain the total labour force in the coal fields we must see that the status and economic conditions of the mine worker are raised relative to that of other sections of the community.
  For that reason these advances were deliberately given. Before I come to the two alternative ways in which we could have avoided the deficit let me say this much: the cheapening of coal in the future must depend—and it is desirable that the price of coal should be reduced —not on seeking to lower the conditions of the workers in the pits, but on securing greater efficiency in the organisation of the industry, by taking full advantage of the pooling and unification which is possible under public ownership and by the increased application of science and modern methods. That is our only way of cheapening the price of coal in the future, as we must desire to cheapen it.
  Even so, it would have been possible for us to have avoided the deficit in the first year of nationalisation and to have shown a surplus. It could have been done in either of two ways. It could have been done by further increasing the price of coal or it could have been done by closing down a large number of pits, mostly in Durham and South Wales, which, taken separately and individually, at this stage of the development of the industry, show deficits, pit by pit. If it had been desired to avoid the deficit by raising the price, it would have been necessary to raise the price by 2s. 9d. a ton throughout the year. If the other method were followed, it would have been possible to avoid the deficit by closing 300 pits producing between them some 35 to 40 million tons of coal during the year and employing some 150,000 miners.
  We deliberately rejected both those courses and I would like to know from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth, tomorrow, whether the Conservative Party, had the choice lain with them, would have adopted either of the courses which we rejected. Would they have increased the price of coal by 2s. 9d. a ton or would they have closed
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  300 pits and thrown 150,000 miners out of employment? Unless one or other of those courses had been adopted it would have been quite impossible to avoid a deficit. We say deliberately it was better to have the deficit than to adopt either of the courses which I have outlined.
  Colonel Dower: Why ignore a mention of the taxpayer's expenditure on the large mansions occupied by the Directors of the National Coal Board?
  Mr. Dalton: That is a mean kind of intervention. The hon. and gallant Gentleman did not so speak, nor did his political associates so speak, of Lord Hyndley when he was working for Powell Duffryn.' They only so speak of Lord Hyndley when he comes forward to do a big job for the country, realising all the abuse he is going to get from some of his associates in private industry. For my part, I think it is a little dingy, all this throwing of bricks at a public-spirited man who, at any rate, knows more about the mining industry than most hon. Members on the opposite side of the House.
  Colonel Dower Colonel Dower rose——
  Mr. Dalton: I am not going to pay any more heed to anything the hon. and gallant Gentleman says. We read in the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman that not only have the nationalised industries
  "imposed heavy burdens on consumers and taxpayers alike,"
  but they have also impeded
  "enterprise and initiative."
  I say that never have we bad more enterprise and initiative than is being shown now by the Coal Board and their officers in working out schemes for putting this wretched, del apidated industry into a proper condition. All through the years of private ownership the dreary story of coal has gone on and now. for the first time, the thing is being tackled in a big way, looking to the future, and plans are being made for the——
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: What about the quality of coal and the price?
  Mr. Dalton: Plans are being made whereby I hope and believe in a few years we shall see a rapid upward trend in the output and a rapid downward trend in the cost of production of coal in this country. The right hon. Gentleman also referred, in passing, to electricity and gas. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Fuel and Power is to speak——
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of coal may I remind him that I asked specifically whether we were to have the advantage of the publication not only of the Burrows report, but also of the evidence.
  Mr. Dalton: I noted that. The Minister of Fuel and Power is to speak tomorrow in this Debate, and I think it will be agreed that it will be more convenient that he should deal, as he undertakes to deal, with those matters falling within the work of his own Department, including whatever is to be said regarding electricity and gas. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that nationalisation in these cases is very recent; in the case of electricity we have not yet had a full year, and in the case of gas the period is even shorter. However, my right hon. Friend will deal with all matters touching the fuel and power industries tomorrow. But now I do ask of the right hon. Member for Bournemouth, when he speaks, to say whether the Conservative Party, if perchance they came back to office, would repeal the nationalisation of coal or of electricity or of gas. I think we should like to know whether the last word was spoken in the Industrial Charter of the Conservative Party, which I have been studying, but which, I think, is already a little out of date. However, no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will tell us tomorrow what are the intentions of his party in this field just now.
  I should like to turn to transport for a moment. The railways passed into public ownership on 1st January, 1948. Therefore, the first full year is not yet complete, for which accounts will be published as soon as they are received. But I assert—and I am not sure that this is realised by all Members of the House—that there has been no increased burden upon users of railways since nationalisation. There has been no increase in
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  fares or rates or charges on British Railways since British Railways came into existence. No one is going to deny that, I think. But it is not always remembered. The last increase in railway fares and rates was on 1st October, 1947, when the railways were still in private hands.
  Mr. Bracken: Ordered by the Minister of Transport.
  Mr. Dalton: Let me continue the argument. Even so, the increase resulted only in establishing a level of 55 per cent. above the pre-war level, for both passenger fares and freight rates for goods. That increase I regard, as very moderate indeed, having regard to the increases that have taken place in other prices. It is difficult to get an exact parallel. The cost of living is not an exact parallel, due to food subsidies and other factors. Perhaps the nearest parallel I can get is this. The present level is 55 per cent. above that of pre-war for the railways, while the wholesale prices index shows an increase of 118 per t ent—more than twice the pre-war level. Therefore, we can say that our railway services, both for passengers and goods, are relatively cheap as prices go in these days.
  Mr. Eden: Pretty good for a "rotten bag of assets."
  Mr. Dalton: The right hon. Gentleman is good enough to recall a phrase of mine—"a pretty poor bag of assets." We are improving them. I see a number of Conservative Members write to "The Times" complaining about their meals on the trains, but we are, on the whole, I think, being reasonably well fed in these hard times.
  Mr. Bracken: What about the replacement of rolling stock and permanent way?
  Mr. Dalton: We are improving them. The Minister of Transport is doing everything he can to assist in the improvement of all the rolling stock and of the permanent way. There are a great number of wagons that have been worn out by the strain of wartime usage, when there was no replacement. They are now being steadily replaced in the nationalised railway shops, where the men are working exceedingly well. There is a quicker turn round of rolling stock than there was before.

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  As to road transport, it is yet too early to report. Road transport is only just beginning to be organised within the new framework.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: But what of my question about the operating revenues of the railways? We do not have to wait until the end of the year for that information. We must know currently how they are going. I asked whether the operating revenues were covering operating costs, apart from the money required for interest.
  Mr. Dalton: Figures are published from time to time about that, but I think it would be better, rather than to give a partial view in the eleventh month of the year, to wait until we can see the picture as a whole, and then it will be open to debate and comment everywhere.
  I turn from the railways to road transport. That is only in process of being built up as a socialised service, but there is now a nucleus of large road transport firms around which the new structure of unified long distance road transport will be developed. My right hon. Friend is, I think, to be congratulated on the way in which he is succeeding by voluntary agreement in getting this nucleus organised for the new road service.
  With regard to docks, I must say that the right hon. Gentleman was in error, and was not able to produce any figures. I am told that no figures can be produced to substantiate what he said. I am told so by the Minister of Transport. When the right hon. Gentleman was speaking I consulted my right hon. Friend, and he told me that there is now a quicker not a slower—turn round of ships in the docks, and that that is so in spite of the fact that there is still a great deal of war damage to be overcome. A great number of transit sheds were blown to pieces by enemy action, and much other war damage remains to be made good. The Parliamentary Secretary has recently been making a tour of the various docks, and studying what priority should be given for improvements. I am assured that, considering the war damage that was done and is in course of repair, there is no justification for the statement that the right hon. Gentleman made.
  Mr. Hudson: I do not think we can be talking about the same thing. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman heard what I said. Certainly, the statement I made—or, at least meant to make—was that the turn round of ships today is taking very much longer than it did before the war.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. James Callaghan): Since the National Dock Labour Board was formed. That was the point.
  Mr. Hudson: I said that in spite of the National Dock Labour Board, and in spite of the decasualisation, the turn round of ships takes much longer now than it did pre-war.
  Mr. Dalton: The truth is that the right hon. Gentleman—and I am saying this in a perfectly courteous fashion—has not got the figures on which to defend the statement that he made. My right hon. Friend tells me that before the war statistics were very fragmentary indeed, and that it is very difficult to get a comparison with the pre-war situation. What I am saying is this—this is what my right hon. Friend assures me—that there has been in recent times a substantial quickening in the turn round of ships.
  Mr. Hudson: I do not want to get involved about this, but I do not think anyone can doubt that there must have been some improvement lately. However, in spite of this it compares badly with the pre-war record.
  Mr. Dalton: Then the right hon. Gentleman does not disagree with anything I am saying on this subject. I said there has been a substantial improvement lately, and he does not disagree with that. There has been a substantial improvement lately, since nationalisation. The right hon. Gentleman is now wanting to make comparisons with pre-war. I am assured that statistics do not exist for such a comparison effectively to be made.
  Mr. Keenan: I do not want to intrude, but I know something of the point raised by the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson). He apparently does not know that it takes much longer to load a ship than to discharge it. There never was such a volume of exports from this country as there is now, and, of course

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  it takes longer to load that larger quantity of goods, and, to that extent, to turn a ship round. I should like to suggest at the same time that he should have a look at the profits made by the shipowners.
  Mr.Dalton: Perhaps this matter has been sufficiently ventilated for the moment.
  Mr.maclay: It would be most unfortunate, as I am sure the Minister of Transport would agree, it a wrong impression went out from this Debate on this subject. There is no shadow of doubt, whatever the basis of the statistics before the war, that ships are in port anything up to one-third longer than they were before the war. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see that no wrong impression goes out that the position is in any way satisfactory. It would be against his own interests and that of his colleagues if that were to happen.
  Mr. Dalton: No position is completely satisfactory, but I did not understand that it was contradicted that there had recently been an improvement—an improvement since the industry was nationalised. That is the sole point which I am seeking to establish in this context.
  With regard to the iron and steel industry, we must, of course, be careful not to anticipate the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill. Nevertheless, the right hon. Gentleman made certain references to this subject, and I propose to make one or two guarded references also, seeking not to conflict with Mr.Speaker's Ruling. We are charged with "obstinately persisting" in the policy of nationalisation. We shall obstinately persist in carrying out the promises which we made to the electors. That is what we are here for. This Bill, which the right hon. Gentleman has referred to, is, indeed, the last great nationalisation Measure of this Parliament which will complete the series of promises under that head made to the electors. In the next Parliament, there may be some more, and there will be plenty of time to discuss those before, during and after the next election. This finishes the task which we undertook before the election in 1945.
  Iron and steel in private hands is restrictionist by nature. We have had proof of that in the past. Broadly
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  speaking—never mind what the legislation may be—what we all agree we should have in this country, and must have, is a modern, efficient and expansionist iron and steel industry. That surely is common ground among us all. Is it not also common ground that the control of this industry is in very few hands—a very small number of people holding a very large number of directorships and exercising a very large amount of influence on this part of the industrial field and many neighbouring parts of it. These men are responsible to no public authority, and, being very few, they have great power. They have too much power.
  One of the things that has shocked me —and here I become reminiscent in referring to war-time and to the Coalition Government—has been the way in which plans for development have so often been regarded as less important than plans for scrapping and redundancy arrangements. When I was President of the Board of Trade during the war, there was much discussion—indeed, it was raised at one time in this House—about the Welsh tinplate industry. I, as President of the Board of Trade, constantly received representatives of the tinplate industry in South Wales, who were seeking my signature to a certificate in respect of a redundancy scheme. They valued my autograph very highly; it would have relieved them of a very heavy burden of Income Tax and Excess Profits Tax had I been willing to certify that this scheme would be in the national interest.
  I never could bring myself to certify that it would be in the national interest to scrap a great number of antiquated tinplate works in South Wales, unless something good and modern was to be put in their place. About this we had a long debate. I found it difficult to get from those who came to see me about the redundancy scheme any clear undertaking that they would put up a new hot strip mill or cold reduction plant anywhere in the South Wales area. That left a most marked impression on my mind and illustrated the restrictionist psychology of those in this industry. In South Wales, the workers are much less interested in plans for paying people not to produce anything any more than they are in plans for building new plant with which they could hold their own in competition.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: On a point of Order. We were told, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, when discussing this matter that the Rules of Order were fairly strict, and that no details at all of iron and steel were a proper subject for discussion. If the right hon. Gentleman is developing this matter in considerable detail, I take it that my right hon. Friend who will open the Debate tomorrow will also be allowed to deal with this matter.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Bowles): I think that the right hon. Member was referring to some Ruling made in the Debate on the Address, which was a good deal wider than the Debate now on the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment. I think that the right hon. Member and the House would be in order in discussing nationalisation generally. The two subjects under discussion today are production and nationalisation. Some industries have been nationalised and some are proposed to be nationalised. That is the view which Mr. Speaker holds. I have already discussed it with him, and I now rule accordingly.
  Mr. Hudson: I understood that we were not to discuss any details of the nationalisation of steel, more especially after —whatever may have been the case on the general Debate—the Amendment had been definitely moved, and I think that I am in order in suggesting that there is nothing in the Amendment which would justify, I respectfully submit, any discussion ——
  Mrs. Braddock Mrs. Braddock (Liverpool, Exchange) rose——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is already on his feet.
  Mr. Hudson: —or any argument in favour of nationalisation of steel.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: My view is that the right hon. Member was talking about tinplate and not about steel [Laughter]. I am not supposed to know anything about the technical aspects of any particular industry, however much it may amuse the Opposition. The position is that we cannot have a Second Reading Debate in anticipation of a Bill which is proposed in the King's Speech, but general references to nationalisation are in order.
  Mr. Dalton: I am most anxious to keep within Mr. Speaker's Ruling, and I have
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  no intention of discussing any details connected with the Bill nor of developing arguments in favour of the scheme set out in the Bill. On the other hand, I thought—and I gather that you have so ruled, Mr. Deputy-Speaker that it would
  be perfectly proper to make certain general observations, particularly by way of reminiscence, which have a bearing on the Amendment in which His Majesty's Government are criticised because they are going, according to the Amendment, "obstinately to persist" in a policy of nationalisation, which has no meaning except in relation to iron and steel. It is not my desire to discuss the Bill. I was giving certain retrospective reflections as to why——
  Mrs. Braddock: On a point of Order. We cannot hear anything that is happening at this end of the Chamber, and perhaps I might suggest that if the right hon. Members would raise their voices, other Members of the House could take some interest in what is going on.
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: The point which my right hon. Friend is making is merely to establish the fact that we shall have the right to reply in equal detail to what the right hon. Gentleman has said. We are only too glad to include something to do with the steel industry in this Debate. We had understood that that was not permitted, but now that we know that it is permitted for the right hon. Gentleman, we shall be glad to have an assurance that equally it will be permitted for the other side.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Opposition will have no larger rights than the right hon. Gentleman has already taken.
  Mr. Stanley: Or smaller?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Or smaller.
  Mr. Dalton: I do not think that there is any serious matter of debate between us on what it is reasonable to discuss. I hope my hon. Friend the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) can hear me now. All that I was desirous of saying to her and other hon. Members was that, in the old days in 1944 there was clear evidence that this particular section of industry—and I believe the same could be said of other sections—was much more concerned with restrictions and making a profit out of a planned restrictionist scheme than with

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  expanding and modernising a most essential industry.
  About iron and steel, I make this general observation, which is wide of any argument about any Bill at all. I say that in the national interest we must have an effective, a modern and a larger iron and steel industry—larger than now. How to get that is anybody's argument, but it must be larger than now. It is necessary to have this, partly for the sake of our own national economy in the United Kingdom, partly in order that we can quickly re-equip the Commonwealth and other territories in which we are interested, where there is a great need for steel for railways and the like, partly in order to sustain the export drive during the difficult years which lie ahead of us, and partly—and not least important—on grounds of national defence in this troubled hour of the world's history, because in the last resort, whatever is said about new weapons, old weapons are made principally of steel, and if clashes should come much steel will be needed. For all these reasons, it is essential that we should have a large, efficient and expanding iron and steel industry, and I do not think that past history shows that we are assured that we can get it. Therefore, it is for this House to consider what measures it is necessary to take in order to give us what we must have and have not yet got.
  A few days ago I read a statement in terms which I did not think could be improved upon in regard to what has happened in this House and in this land in these last three years. Before quoting these words, I wish that hon. Members opposite would show a little more pride in the achievements of the British people in this hour of difficulty; it has been a great job that has been done by all our countrymen who are working in the fields, in the mines and in the factories, and in all branches of industry. Here I quote these words, which struck me when I read them as being a very clear and admirable statement of the case:
  "British labour is able to claim that by pursuing the Socialist policy enunciated in 1945 Britain has increased her production more than any other European country "—
  even though they have not Labour Governments and Socialist majorities; and in some respects it would have been happier if some of them had—
  714
  "that she has made a diligent and dramatic effort to establish her economic independence, and that she has not been deflected from the pursuit of her Socialist aims by all the scares and threats of the enemy. The Steel Bill is the symbol of the fact that a resolute, democratic Socialism still rules in one of the most powerful nations in the world. … It is surely no accident that Britain under a strong Socialist Government has less industrial disturbance and fewer Communists than any other country in the West."
  I pay my tribute to whoever, writing for "Tribune," wrote those words.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: What about the "Daily Worker"?
  Mr. Dalton: Until the authorship of that article was disclosed the Opposition thought it was very good. It was received with respectful silence whilst there was anonymity. It was very fortunate for Britain and the world that the Tory Party lost the last General Election. And after nearly three and a half years the Tory Party have not yet registered one single victory in a by-election where the seat was won at the last General Election by a Labour candidate. Such a long and unbroken series of electoral rebuffs, in spite of all the opportunities so richly offered to the Opposition to exploit every temporary grievance and every shortage due to war and to our effort in the war, such a failure over three and a half years to make any advance in their electoral position is without parallel in modern British Parliamentary history. Not since the great Reform Bill of 1832 has any Opposition so ignominiously failed to win back the lost confidence of the electorate. I ask the House, in the Debate which is beginning today, to reject this Amendment, which I characterise as slip-shod. unsubstantiated and doctrinaire.
  5.6 p.m.
  Colonel Lancaster: The Chancellor of the Duchy, in commencing his speech, said that he was disappointed in the case my right hon. Friend had made in developing his argument, and he went on to deal in some detail with the various points which my right hon. Friend had put forward. But what in substance was the defence put forward by the Chancellor of the Duchy? First, that his Government had not succeeded in two years in turning either the Bank of England or Cable and Wireless into a loss. It would have been excessively difficult to have done so in the case of either

  715
  of those services. Then, when he got on to something which was getting a little closer to productive industry he had, of course, to admit that losses were occurring. The first was the matter of civil aviation, where he frankly acknowledged that the loss was a large one—£10 million or so.
  When the right hon. Gentleman passed from civil aviation to coal he said: "Well, yes, there has been a loss of some £20 million or so, but so far that has not been passed on to the consumer or the taxpayer. Indeed, we could have avoided that loss." We are to assume that at the beginning of 1947 the Labour Government were able to anticipate that they would, in fact, make such a substantial loss, and they had the alternative, as the right hon. Gentleman said, of either raising prices or closing 300 pits. Well, I do not think that the ordinary person would really credit the Labour Party with such prescience as to be able to anticipate what did, in fact, occur—and occurred in a progressive manner towards the end of that year. The right hon. Gentleman then went on to deal with transport, in respect of which he said that only 11 months had gone past, and that it was anybody's guess whether we should be able to pay for our commitments in that field. Finally, of course, he dealt with the position of the steel industry, which falls to be considered at a later period.
  Substantially, when we get into the field of the nationalisation of private enterprise the story is not, as my right hon. Friend said, a very pretty one. But for the purposes of what I want to say today I do not propose to go into any detail. I want to consider the matter—and I invite the Government so to consider it—along one or two general lines which I feel need to be considered before the Government embark on a further venture in this great experimental field. The Chancellor of the Duchy said: "Well, we have only one large major field in which we are going to experiment." Nevertheless, that field is so large that I believe all sorts of people would wish to be more satisfied in their minds before this great, and in some ways final, step is taken.
  It is no bad thing from time to time to look at experience throughout the world. Members of this House and an
  716
  other place from time to time call in aid the experiences of other countries in the field of nationalisation. I think that we are justified in seeing what, in fact, are these experiences. I am not for this purpose going to deal with our Dominions. I will confine myself to large and important countries which have tried the same experiment—France, Holland and Czechoslovakia in particular. We have also the views of countries that have not tried the experiment but may well have given the matter considerable consideration, particularly in the light of the experience of those countries that have tried it.
  In that connection, I would mention in particular such countries as Belgium and, of course, the United States in another context. My contact as far as productive industry in America is concerned, has been almost wholly with the management and technical classes. I have not come into much contact with the ownership side of industry in that country. My contact since the war has been with those members of the United States who from time to time have come over here and have paid me the compliment of discussing nationalisation with me. I find that they are very broadminded on the matter and are ready to discuss it quite objectively. So far, I have found that on no occasion have they been sufficiently convinced on the two points I shall deal with later on in my speech.
  So far as the Continent is concerned, we have the case of France who, partly because of her very distracted political conditions, turned to nationalisation as a possible remedy for her constant ills. There is no doubt that the result in France has been most disappointing; indeed, it has become so costly that the French are, not unnaturally, deeply concerned about the present position. Let us turn to another part of Europe where they are possibly more hard-headed than France in economic and industrial matters, and that is to the Low Countries —Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg in particular. Holland at one time did experiment with nationalisation. So far as her coalmining industry was concerned, about half of her pits were put under state control. There must have been a very real temptation after the war to put the whole of that industry under the same

  717
  type of control. They considered the matter in some detail, but after due consideration, and partly, I think, as a result of the experience of this country, they decided that for the time being they were not going to embark on further state control of that industry.
  Belgium, where the temptation in some senses must have been even greater because of her present socialist majority, likewise considered the whole field of her heavy industry from the nationalisation point of view and, as hon. Members know, decided that the time was either not propitious or that the case had not been proved to warrant embarking on this experiment. Luxembourg took precisely the same view. I have had an opportunity to meet representatives of all three of these countries as recently as a fortnight ago in Germany, and they have all confirmed this view. Czechoslovakia, like France, embarked on this experiment and the results have not been dissimilar to those in France. I mention this because I think it reasonable for the House to pay some regard to the reactions of other countries to our own experience in this field.
  Members may well ask what are the main factors which have decided these other countries on this point of view. I cannot of course give them the answer, but I am inclined to think that most thinking people who have had the opportunity or the experience to judge this matter would say that in two main fields the case has not so far been proved. The most difficult problem of any Government after nationalising an industry is the appointment of personnel. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster brought in, quite unnecessarily, Lord Hyndley with a view to defending him against some mythical attack supposed to have been made against him. So far as I can remember, my right hon. Friend did not mention him in his remarks, but said something in connection with the acquisition by the National Coal Board of large houses. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is entirely wrong in imagining that in any other field than distribution Lord Hyndley knows more than anyone else. As far as the production side of the industry is concerned, I have forgotten far more than he ever knew.
  718
  Any Government which nationalises an industry is confronted with a very real problem when it comes to the appointment of those who must run the industry on its behalf. They have two alternatives. Either they must set up a board which is pliable and somewhat nebulous in character, a board which will carry out the wishes and whims of the Minister of the day, or they must appoint a board which will be strong minded and independent, a board which will quite likely go somewhat contrary to the views of the Minister and of the Government of the day. The temptation must necessarily be to veer towards the former of these two alternatives. Indeed, the Government mentally limit the field from which they can call upon men to serve on these hoards. It is perfectly true to say, and it is perhaps not unreasonable that it should be so, that the Government tend to appoint men who are politically not unsympathetic to their point of view—I put it no higher than that. It follows that their chances of producing the right men or the right set of men are considerably minimised.
  I cannot over-emphasise the part which personnel, particularly in the higher ranks of industry, must inevitably play. It is they who in the last resort set both the standard and the tone throughout the industry. It may well be said that those who serve on these boards are very remote from the hewers at the coal-face, but the whole sense of leadership which is created at the top makes itself felt right down to the man at the coal-face, and unless the very best people are in supreme control we cannot hope to get leadership throughout the industry. I am not necessarily saying anything against those who have so far been selected for this type of work—I do not want to bring personalities into this matter. The point is that unless the right people can be selected, there will be a lower standard throughout the particular industry, and unless the Government of the day are singularly lucky, the chances of their selecting the right men are not very great. Furthermore, by the very nature of nationalisation, not only is far more power concentrated in the hands of these men, but far greater opportunities for influencing the industry over which they are put into control. In discussing this matter with those whose views are completely objective I have found that they

  719
  are by no means convinced that, under nationalisation, a Government is likely to be successful in making selections which, as I have said, are, by the very nature of nationalisation, all-important.
  I pass from that to a natural corollary —the question of decentralisation. This matter has been discussed up and down the country, particularly with reference to coalmining, and no doubt in time will be discussed in connection with iron and steel, railways and other things. Decentralisation is not very far removed from personnel, and personnel from leadership. Decentralisation is a state of mind, and unless men can be selected who are big enough, experienced enough, and can command, among their subordinates, a sufficient sense of confidence, it simply is not a practical proposition. The very essence of nationalisation is centralisation, and the effort to be made to decentralise is thereby the greater. If there ever was an example of good decentralisation it was that which was shown by General Eisenhower during the war. He was a great man who had the confidence of those who served under him, not only in his own armies but throughout all the Allied armies. No small part of the success which was achieved by the Allies was due to the ability of General Eisenhower to decentralise.
  So far, the case for decentralisation has not been proved. I believe that the greatest evil today, in the administration of coalmining in particular. and, no doubt, in some other nationalised industries, is the failure to date to deal with decentralisation effectively. All sorts of assurances have been given from time to time that decentralisation is the aim and object of those in charge, that they have schemes and ideas in hand which will bring about the ideal state of decentralisation. In fact, however, as those of us who were in productive industry understood it to be, the fringe of decentralisation has only just been touched. I remember, a few months after the Coal Board came into operation, the Deputy-Chairman making a comment which, I think, was indicative of the attitude of a certain type of mind towards this whole problem. He said, "For the first time we have got a good filing system in this industry"—a deplorable point of view. We did not want a filing system; we
  720
  wanted production. But production cannot come except through leadership, and leadership can only come through decentralisation, which was entirely lacking.
  I do not want to take up much more of the time of the House. I wanted to develop these two themes, because I believe that in approaching the problem of further nationalisation—the inherent point in the Amendment of the Opposition that we as a people are not justified in going further along the road of experiments until we know that we can solve a problem which so far has not been solved. I do not believe that in either of the two cases I have mentioned we have as yet found a solution. I do not believe that this is a matter which the ordinary man in the street can judge for himself. I believe that long and intimate experience of productive industry is required before one can give a true answer to the two propositions I have put forward. I believe that many Members on both sides of the House would find themselves in great difficulty in giving an honest appreciation of these propositions. There are Members on both sides who are in that position, but I question if any one of them can get up and say that the fundamental problems of nationalisation have been in any sense solved.
  The Government, however, propose to embark on yet another large measure of nationalisation which, in this case, will concern such a wide range of industries that it will, in turn, affect the whole of the rest of our economy. I believe the case to be unproved, and that the Government are advancing along uncharted ground in going forward with their further experiment. For those reasons, I support the Amendment.
  5.27 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Allen: By way of preamble to what I have to say I should like to repeat some words from the Gracious Speech which were used yesterday by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do so because of their great significance, and because they might otherwise be overlooked as they have no direct connection with any proposed legislation:
  "It is only by our continued exertions and self-restraint that we shall win through. Inventive thought matched to hard work is necessary to enable workers and management, in common effort and counsel, to make the

  721
  fullest use of our available resources."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st November, 1948; Vol. 457, c. 536.]
  Common sense was never more finely expressed. That reference to self-restraint is particularly apt in a condition of full employment, and some measure of centralisation is a prerequisite to success in obtaining full employment. Full employment itself, quite apart from nationalisation, alters the whole character of industrial relationships. It changes the pattern of power relationships in industry. It merges the power of employers and managers, and increases the power of the workers. Where there are more jobs than workers available to fill them the market for labour is destroyed. Labour, at last, ceases to be a commodity, and the dignity of the human personality has a chance to show itself in the common man. That is a position which many of us have longed for throughout many years of industry.
  We are aware, through our association with industry, that, ordinarily, men belonging to the working class have had their minds dogged and dominated by two fears for many years—the fear of unemployment and the certainty of ending their days in the workhouse. Those days I am glad to say, are gone, and if a Government of this character continues to be returned at successive Elections they will never come back. I am conscious of the fact that there is also a heavy burden of responsibility upon trade unionists and trade union leaders. I am conscious of the inflationary pressure which is inseparable from such a condition as full employment, and I realise that any attempt to exploit the situation on the part of trade unionists and trade union leaders would inevitably result in disaster. Self-restraint is a necessary condition for success in a condition of full employment. It is to the everlasting credit of the trade union movement that it has not sought to exploit this situation, and I am very proud indeed, as a trade union official, to express my approval of the recent action of the trade union movement in this regard.
  Equally, the Government are to be congratulated on the degree of co-operation existing between them and the T.U.C. It is certainly to be hoped that such co-operation will continue. It is essential to the success of a full employment policy, just as some measure of nationalisation
  722
  is equally necessary for its success. I like also the reference in the Gracious Speech to "common effort and common counsel" between workers and management. I am satisfied that there is a greater prospect of common effort and common counsel between managements and workers in nationalised industry than we could hope to get in private industry. This degree of common effort and common counsel is not easy to bring about in these immediate post-war years, so many workers have such bitter memories, and, in the past, so many managements have relied on the threat of the sack to maintain discipline. Those bad old days have gone, and I hope they have gone for good. The future of Britain depends on the loyal co-operation of all the human factors in production if we are to survive as a nation, and if we and our children, and our children's children, are to enjoy freedom from fear and freedom from want.
  Incidentally, I should like to say that self-restraint is equally necessary on the part of journalists and politicians. I say this because a perusal of the daily and weekly Press leads me to fear that there ought to be, for the nation's sake, much greater restraint on the part of some journalists and some politicians. Certain efforts have been made in the Tory Press recently which are just food and drink to the Kremlin. Some of the remarks made in the Tory Press recently would do credit to the "Daily Worker." Some Tory politicians move up and down the country crying havoc. They are the prophets of doom; they are, in fact, Britain's sixth column, fighting behind the skirts of members of the League of Nagging Housewives. It is a contemptible propaganda, seeking to undermine the morale of the people and retard the return of that prosperity which we all desire. They cannot speak without saying that the times in Britain are difficult.
  I have very vivid memories of a Debate during the Special Session, during which the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade were outlining the facts of Britain's partial recovery from our post-war distresses, and I am reminded in this connection of the summer which we have just had, and of the cornfields of Britain, as we saw them, with the corn lying flat, tangled, bedraggled, sodden and so on. This conveyed to me a picture of the Tory benches

  723
  during the recital by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade, of the recovery which this country had made from the condition in which we were placed during 1947. That was a story of Britain on the road to recovery, but it looked to me as if hon. Gentlemen opposite were very sorry to hear it. May I presume to offer them a little advice from the words of Shakespeare?
  "Though it be honest, it is never good
  To bring bad news: give to a gracious message
  An host of tongues, but let ill tidings tell
  Themselves when they be felt."
  Let me end by myself bringing a gracious message from the miners of Leicestershire, whom I am proud to count among my constituents. These are the figures of production in Leicestershire under the nationalised industry, compared with the production figures of the days before the war. I want to relate these figures to the figures of general production over the whole field of industry both before and after the war. In 1939, in Great Britain as a whole, we produced 231,337,000 tons, which may be taken as datum 100. In 1947, industry as a whole produced 187 million tons, which gives an index figure of 80.83. That means that, during last year, generally speaking, over the mines as a whole, there was a falling off in production, but, last year, in Leicestershire, as compared with 1939, the production figure was 139.83 per cent. In 1939, Leicester produced 2,337,000 tons; last year, it produced 3,321,000 tons, giving that index figure of 139.83.
  As an indication of the situation in relation to output per worker, I want to give these figures. In Great Britain as a whole in 1939, we produced, per man in industry, 302 tons; in 1947, there was a falling off and the production was only 263 tons, representing 87.09 per cent. of the 1939 figures. In Leicestershire, however, a completely different story has to be told. In 1939, the production was 365 tons; last year, the figure was 429 tons. That is a remarkable improvement in this post-war period of production per worker over the figures of production per worker in 1939. It is a very proud story indeed, and it is being maintained. Taking the output of saleable coal for the six months up to June, 1947, the output was
  724
  1,664,915 tons, but output for the first six months of this year was 1,754,141 tons, representing an increase in the first six months of this year over the first six months of last year of 99,126 tons. That is a remarkable story of production under nationalisation, where we get complete co-operation, or as complete as we can hope to get it, with certain exceptions, between management and workers, and I am very proud indeed to have this opportunity of telling that story to this House.
  5.40 p.m.
  Sir David Robertson: The hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. A. Allen) had some hard things to say about certain members of the Conservative Party and certain Tory newspapers for impeding our national recovery. I am sure he is well intentioned, but I am equally certain that he is wrong. The Conservative Party does not take second place to the Labour Party, or any other party, in its desire for the well-being of this country. I assure the hon. Member, who has the honour to represent a coalmining community, that the Tory Party fervently desire that coal production and the well-being of the men in the industry will be successfully brought about, because, if they are not, heaven help this country.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer accused a group of tinplate industrialists in South Wales of seeking great personal gain by making claims for obsolescence of plant to which they were not entitled. He spoke of his long interviews with them. The thing that I find so surprising is that he had more than one meeting with them. I should have thought that had they been people of that calibre, he would have brought the meeting to an end immediately. However, the tinplate industrialists in South Wales will have something to say about that, and I look forward to their reply, either in this House or elsewhere.
  I support the Amendment for the reasons stated in the terms of the Amendment itself and for those given by my right hon. Friend who opened this Debate. I recognise that any Government is entitled to control an industry like the steel industry which is protected by tariffs, and where an abnormal post-war demand calls for priorities in distribution and for specific

  725
  allocations. But I regard the taking over of the industry by the State as wholly undesirable and unnecessary. This Government are possessed of powers of control greater than any other peace time Government in the history of our country.
  Mr. Scollan: Not half enough.
  Sir D. Robertson: If we get the Soviet system, probably the hon. Member will be satisfied. It inherited the emergency powers granted to Mr. Chamberlain's Government at the outbreak of war; these were added to from time to time by the Coalition Government, and since the war ended the present Government have made many rules and orders to meet post-war difficulties. In my opinion, they have all the power necessary for controlling any industry. In those circumstances, the proposal mentioned in the Gracious Speech to bring the iron and steel industry under public ownership indicates that the Government are a weak and incompetent Government with no confidence in their ability to control industry even with all the powers at their disposal. They are degenerating into a totalitarian Government. They must have physical possession of industry, just as the Soviet have possession of men's minds and bodies. It seems to me that is a dangerous path to tread. The Government must own something so that it may be able to govern it. That is what the policy really means.
  I sometimes wonder whether the Government realise that the success which attended Britain's massive industrial effort during the war was brought about by the magnificent co-operation between private enterprise industries throughout the country and the Government Departments concerned. Exactly the same thing applies to commodity rationing by the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Food, and other Departments. It is not the Government Departments which make a success of it; they do a good job and we pay a tribute to them for doing so. It is the importers, the wholesalers, and the little shopkeepers up and down the country who make these schemes a success. I am certain that the steel industry is perfectly capable of carrying out the instructions of this Government or any Government, in regard to the control of prices, production, distribution and all
  726
  the essential controls required at a time like this.
  I resent the action of the Government in creating boards for the purpose of running nationalised industries. It seems to me that, by so doing, they are evading direct responsibility. We in this House know how they deny us the right to ask Questions about nationalised industries. When we ask Questions we are told that it is a matter of day-to-day administration, and, when we complain, we are further told that such matters can be raised on Supply Days. But Supply Days were not granted to Parliament for that purpose. I remember, in a previous Parliament, members of the Labour Party, speaking from the benches which we now occupy, getting up day after day and asking Questions about the coalmining and other industries. Today, we are barred from doing that.
  I believe that the reason why the Government are obliged to shelter behind boards is that the men who compose the Government are entirely without business experience. I have read the short biographies of members the Government, and they reveal careers of great merit. However, they clearly indicate that His Majesty's Ministers have no experience in running industrial or commercial undertakings, either on their own account or as directors, or even at management levels. In the Lord President's biography I note that at one period of his outstanding career he was the deputy circulation manager of a newspaper, and I am certain that he was first class at his job. It was the first great Socialist newspaper, the "Daily Citizen," which was owned by a public company called Labour Newspapers Ltd. It had a capital of £150,000 which was subscribed by trade unions and by devoted Socialist men and women who invested their savings in it. The Board was composed of the leading Socialist Members of Parliament of the day—Mr. Ramsay MacDonald, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. J. R. Clynes, Mr. G. H. Roberts, Mr. C. W. Bowerman, Mr. John Hodge, supported by Mr. Ben Riley and Mr. Bruce Glasier. The manager and secretary was Mr. Clifford Allen, afterwards Lord Allen of Hurtwood.
  None of these eminent men knew anything about running a newspaper, just as

  727
  the present Government know nothing about running the steel industry. As a result of their lack of knowledge and experience, the paper had only a brief life of two and a half years, and the money subscribed was lost owing to the incompetence of the board of management. The paper was staffed with competent journalists and printers, selected, presumably, for their knowledge and not for their politics. That brilliant artist, Mr. Tom Webster, was the cartoonist.
  Mr. Warbey: Can the hon. Member say how many privately owned newspapers have gone under in the last 40 years?
  Sir D. Robertson: No, Sir, I should require notice of that question. However, I can tell the House that in my lifetime, I have known nothing like this tragedy of the "Daily Citizen," and I think the House should be told something about it at a time like this when vast schemes of nationalisation are being embarked upon. As I say, the failure of that newspaper was entirely due to the fact that the board of directors were elected because of their political prominence and not because of their knowledge of the job.
  Mr. Scollan: The hon. Member is a bit late in advising us.
  Sir D. Robertson: Nothing is too late when the Government are on the eve of creating the colossal blunder of taking over a craft industry. We may not feel so deeply about the taking over of a public utility, but when it comes to a craft industry it is another matter, and that is why I am speaking as I am today.
  Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: The hon. Member began this argument on the question whether Ministers were competent to run these industries. Surely the hon. Member knows that there is no suggestion that Ministers should run any of these industries. Surely he understands that direction of policy is quite different from running the industries, which none of the Ministers wants to do or would do.
  Sir D. Robertson: The hon. Member and I will have to agree to differ on that. I have been in business for over 40 years, at management level most of the time, and I object to any man endowed with
  728
  responsibilities evading responsibility. The Postmaster-General does not evade his responsibility to this House.
  Mr. Chamberlain: Does the hon. Member suggest that Ministers are attempting to run the industries or that that is any part of nationalisation policy?
  Sir D. Robertson: When we get to the Second Reading of the Steel Bill I shall be glad to express my views if I am successful in catching Mr. Speaker's eye. My point is that the failure of the "Daily Citizen" was entirely due to incompetent and inexperienced direction and management by the board who were elected because of their political prominence. Within 12 months of starting, when the paper was losing heavily, the board decided to publish in Manchester as well as Fleet Street in order that the faithful from Land's End to John o' Groats could have the paper on their breakfast table every morning. That was an amazing decision. It immediately doubled the loss and shortened the life of the paper. It had taken the "Daily Mail," staffed and directed by men who started slinging ink at the bottom, 30 years to get to the stage when they could think of opening in Manchester and duplicating all their expenses. However, these reckless Socialist politicians took this step, with disastrous results.
  Here is another incident which I have been able to dig up. Circulation was a problem facing the Lord President in his capacity as deputy circulation manager, and it was greatly hindered by a decision of the board against the publication of horse-racing news. The board were pressed to change their decision, and they agreed to do it with one dissentient who was a strong man and exercised a Russian-like veto on the rest of the board. He proposed that instead of publishing horse racing news, which the working man wanted irrespective of his politics, a canvass should be made of the nonconformist Bethels to which this strong' man belonged, because he believed the circulation could he made up in that way. All the time the paper was losing £2,000 a week. That canvass took three months and it proved that the vetoer was wrong. All that time the paper was being driven to ruin.
  Mr. Austin: Have the researches of the hon. Member enabled him

  729
  to compare the life and career of the "Daily Citizen" with the administration of Richard Crittall's as evidenced in recent history?
  Sir D. Robertson: I know nothing at all about Richard Crittall's. [Laughter.] I am rather surprised that that should be a subject for laughter. I have not said anything about Richard Crittall's. Hon. Members are very easily amused. I am talking about this Socialist failure because I genuinely believe that there is a great lesson to be learned by hon. and right hon. Members opposite if they study the facts which I have given. It is interesting to note that since those days when that newspaper went under so quickly, the Socialists have shown wisdom in entrusting the publication of their present newspaper to a capitalist concern which is run by——
  Mr. Follick: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. What has all this to do with the Amendment?
  Sir D. Robertson: I am pointing out that the Socialists now entrust their newspaper to Odhams Press which is staffed by capable men who are qualified by experience to run a newspaper.
  Mr. Scollan: Is the hon. Member suggesting that we should hand over the steel industry to Odhams Press?
  Sir D. Robertson: I am suggesting something which the hon. Gentleman must know well, that the steel industry should be left alone in the competent hands which have raised it to the proud position in which it is serving our country so well today.
  Mr. Scollan: Those hands have strangled it.
  Sir D. Robertson: Hon. Members opposite are fond of facing the future. The Opposition like to look forward too, but we also like to look back for guidance to those who went before us.
  Mr. Messer: Such as the Jarrow martyrs.
  Sir D. Robertson: The unhappy story of the "Daily Citizen" is worthy of the serious attention of hon. Gentlemen opposite at this time when they have unbridled power. They should call a halt to their schemes of public ownership until they have more experience and until they
  730
  give the people a chance of expressing their views on the continuance of a policy which is fraught with peril.
  5.56 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: I value my seat as an hon. Member of this House and I value the traditions of this House. They have not, in my respectful view, been greatly enhanced this afternoon. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) has talked of the general' Debate on the Address as the grand inquest of the nation. Today, we have had something approaching an inquest on this House. I listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) for 45 pained and painful minutes without finding out whether he was in favour of nationalisation or not. So far as I can understand—I want to represent faithfully what he said—he is in favour of some method of controls which would leave the directors free to take the profits and would provide for the possibility of the nation indemnifying them against loss.
  I have listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson). So far as I could follow him —I followed with the greatest possible difficulty—he occupied the House for some 20 minutes in referring to some curious example of private enterprise in the newspaper industry which had a board of directors, the names of some of which sounded familiar. The only one which I recognised was that of a distinguished Conservative Prime Minister. What that has to do with the problems of the day, with the terms of the Amendment and with whether we should nationalise or not, I do not know, but out of courtesy to the hon. Member, as he does not seem to know the facts I have a copy of the last issue of the "Daily Citizen" and I can tell him that it terminated its short but very valuable and enterprising existence at the time of the paper shortage during the first World War when many other newspapers were also being terminated.
  It might be desirable if I tried to bring the Debate back to the terms of the Amendment which is rather in terms of "The mixture as before." We have it in some such form in the course of the Debate on the Gracious Speech from the Throne at the opening of each Session. The only difference is that the measure

  731
  of nationalisation which the Tories are then condemning is the one which is about to take place. It is that one which will be a disaster to the country, and it is always that one to which shortly afterwards the Tories say they do not really object. They have a curious "phobia" about nationalisation as a whole, and it it always the next measure of nationalisation which will be serious.
  I could never quite understand this phobia about nationalisation. In their time the Tories have had their mildly progressive moments and have nationalised many propositions, such as the roads. One very enterprising Tory gets up time after time from a seat in this House and advocates wiping out the remaining toll gates, one of the last remaining classic examples of private enterprise. That enterprise is remunerative and no one has any work to do or any worry. We now get Tories who have become so progressive under Labour influence that they are anxious to wipe out that form of enterprise. Roads, water, and public services of all kinds have come under nationalisation under Tory and Liberal Governments. There is really no issue of principle at all to discuss. It is merely a question of the desirability of the particular institution. At the same time it is right that the House should remember that the Tory attitude towards each particular item of nationalisation has been different as it was approached from when it was discussed and when it was passed.
  The first example was the nationalisation of the Bank of England. My hon. Friends will remember that that was attacked up and down the country as a grave encroachment of the liberty of the subject, as a great disaster coming, as threatening financial bankruptcy to the nation, and involving grave interferences with human rights. On the Debate on the Second Reading the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling), who I am glad to see in his seat and who no doubt has forgotten his indiscretion said:
  "The subject of this Bill is a great institution which has passed into proverbial language, and has been referred to throughout the world in the phrase, 'As safe as the Bank of England.' I think we are saying goodbye' today to that…".—"[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th December, 1945; Vol. 417, c 1389.]
  732
  Do Tories say it anywhere now? I imagine that possibly the hon. Member for South Edinburgh would. The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman), whom we regard as being more careful in his statements, said in the same Debate:
  "I am against the Bill … the Bill is wrong in principle because it takes away something good, the freedom of people to work freely and do a good job because they wish to do it. Secondly, the Bill is unnecessary because on all sides it is agreed that the full powers which the Treasury has had have worked in such a way that the country has had the financial policy of the Chancellors of the Exchequer whom it has put into power."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 19th December. 1945; Vol. 417, c. 1380.]
  We had a little recent evidence on that point which I regard as of more significance. Sir James Grigg has recently given us the privilege of reading his reminiscences. No hon. Member opposite would dispute the fact that Sir James Grigg is a tried and trusted and crusty Tory. [Interruption.] I understand that is denied, and that he never paid his penny a week. However, even if he is not genuine vintage port, at least throughout his term of office he was port type. In his reminiscences Sir James Grigg refers to the occasion when the right hon. Member for Woodford was Chancellor of the Exchequer and came to the conclusion that a proposal by the Bank of England to increase the bank rate would be adverse to the interests of the business community, adverse to the interest of the country, and would produce something approaching national disaster. So the right hon. Member for Woodford, with that courage which we associate with his name, at once tackled the man who in his person controlled then the whole power of the Bank of England.
  At that time one man was the Bank of England and no one ever disputed what he said. What Mr. Montagu Norman said today, the Bank of England did tomorrow. Today there is the Treasury, there is the Board, there is an organisation for the exchange of views. We are not told by Sir James precisely what Mr. Montagu Norman said—it would be interesting to know—but we are told what he did. The right hon. Member for Woodford said he was not to increase the bank rate. Mr. Montagu Norman increased it the next day, and blow the City and blow the commercial institutions, and let the thing go bang. That was the man's policy.

  733
  What were the drastic steps taken by the right hon. Member for Woodford on that occasion? How did he deal with that great crisis? He took—in fairness to him—the severest step open to him; he always after that date, according to Sir James, referred to Mr. Montagu Norman as Mr. Skinner. Faced with a similar possibility having regard to the necessity of permanence in our institutions, the stability of our financial policy, we nationalised the Bank. And the moment we had done it, our Tory friends went wandering round the country saying, "There is nothing in it, it is just an alteration of name. We have never minded that at all." And what the hon. Member for Bath said was not of importance, and what the hon. Member for South Edinburgh says, of course, none of us ever take any notice of. The whole thing was pleasantly washed away as one of those minor indiscretions.
  Then we come to the question of civil aviation. On the Debate on the Second Reading on the Bill for Civil Aviation we had the good fortune to have the Bill under the control of the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas), who was then a passionate advocate of nationalisation and made a speech in this House which we all remember as the Vasco da Gama speech. He opened, with that rather pleasant and slightly ineffective charm which we all like and admire, in these words:
  "Seldom have I known the Conservatives bathed in such inspissated gloom as they have been this afternoon.…"
  Of course that was some time ago and he had not seen them today—
  "No doubt they expected the nationalisation of the Bank of England and of the coal industry, but it obviously came to them as a great surprise—though I do not know why—that civil aviation should be brought into public ownership and control."
  Then, as my hon. Friends will remember, the hon. Member for Keighley lashed himself into welter of enthusiasm and approached a peroration, of a length and diversity which the House has never heard before, in the course of which he said:
  "The vote which we shall take tonight is symbolic of the passing of an age. We are living in a period of transition which is not less revolutionary than the Renaissance…Today, over a wide field, private enterprise has exhausted its utility and become a stumbling block to economic advance. In the new Renaissance the new
  734
  and potent instruments which science has placed in the hands of man are matched by a new and fruitful principle, the principle of public enterprise based on the service of the many instead of the private profit of the few; a principle which is as much in advance of private enterprise, as private enterprise was of the feudal guild."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th May, 1946; Vol. 422, cc. 716, 717, 727 and 728.]
  Of course since then we have seen the hon. Member for Keighley himself in a state of transition. I am sorry if I must devote, necessarily, a few personal words on the subject. I hope with his literary knowledge he will understand me if I say that I approach this subject in the same spirit of reluctant distaste with which Thomas Babington Macaulay commenced his essay upon the poems of Mr. Robert Montgomery. I think it right to say that in the course of the history of this House many hon. Members have crossed the Floor, some for good reasons, some for bad, some reluctantly, and some casting a last long, lingering look behind at their old colleagues and friends.
  Never before, as far as I recollect, in the history of this House has an hon. Member crossed the Floor with a hired band playing martial tunes and cheering himself hoarse on the way. Never before have we seen the spectacle of an hon. Member getting up and assaulting his old colleagues in the opening speech in the first day when he takes his seat upon the opposite bench, and I think we are entitled to ask the hon. Member for Keighley, as now the acknowledged voice of the benches opposite, when these particular doubts about nationalisation arose, and when they came to his mind. Did they arise when he was in office or did they arise after he had left office? I can well understand that the one doubt to which he gave expression in his speech of last week may well have arisen in some moment of introspective self-contemplation while he was in office himself —that was the doubt about the competence of His Majesty's Ministers. When did doubts about nationalisation start?
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: Since the hon. Gentleman has asked me a direct question, I have always been in favour of the nationalisation of the Bank of England, the coal, gas and electricity industries and the railways. I have not changed my views. I have never been in favour of nationalisation in general, and all my friends of the Labour Party have known it.
  Mr. Hale: This raises matters upon which I am sure the House will desire a little enlightenment. The hon. Member for Keighley won a seat representing a large and important constituency. If I may refer his attention to one fact which I think of some importance in this matter, the only persons to whom he has made no reference up to now are the people who gave him a 17,000 majority in Keighley and who, no doubt, are waiting anxiously to hear this exposition of his views.
  Politically, his career bears a very great resemblance to the career of the famous Lord Lundy—
  "Towards the age of twenty-six,
  They shoved him into politics;
  In which profession he commanded
  The income that his rank demanded
  In turn as Secretary for
  The Colonies and Civil Air,
  And finally there came a threat,
  To oust him from the Cabinet.'
  The hon. Member for Keighley was never in the Cabinet but he was a member of the Government, and I think the House is entitled to know from him whether these doubts commenced while he was a member of the Government or the moment he got the sack.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: The hon. Member obviously has not heard what I said. I told him that I have not changed my views upon nationalisation. I have never been an advocate of nationalisation in general. It is not my nature to advocate doctrinaire policy at all. I have been in favour of the public ownership of certain industries.
  Mr. Hale: I do not know what the word "doctrinaire" means in this connection. Frankly, we all like the hon. Member for Keighley. He has always seemed to me to be a man who always knows who's who but never knows what's what. So far as I can see it, the answer he has given makes that situation quite clear. The issue of the last election was fought upon the issue we are discussing today. It was fought upon the nationalisation of the means of production and the means of distribution, and upon the nationalisation of the steel industry which was particularly mentioned. The hon. Member for Keighley says that he has never altered his views. We cannot at the moment discuss the important matter of the House of Lords, except in so far as it is necessary to enable
  736
  the next measure of nationalisation, which we are now discussing, to go through. Last week the hon. Member said that he voted for the first Bill, had abstained from voting for the second Bill and will vote against the third Bill; now he assures the House he has never altered his mind.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: Perhaps I may be allowed to add to what I said then. On the first occasion we did not know that the object of the Parliament Bill was to get the Steel Bill through. We know it now. I have no great objection to the contents of the Parliament Bill but I have the greatest 'objection to its purpose and the methods by which it was introduced.
  Mr. Hale: If that be so, it is perhaps just as well that the hon. Member has found his home on the benches opposite. He must have been the only Member on these benches—or, indeed, on any benches—who did not know the precise object for which the Parliament Bill was introduced.
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: Is the hon. Member aware that the Lord President of the Council deliberately and authoritatively stated from the benches opposite that the Parliament Bill in any of its stages had nothing whatever to do with the Steel Bill and was never intended to? Will the hon. Member therefore, repudiate the Lord President of the Council and cross the Floor of the House?
  Mr. Hale: The hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) has twice corrected me for my manners and has justified my giving way to him by now making a grave error of his own. He did not allow me to finish my sentence and stopped me with such an air of decision, importance and importunacy that I gave way to him, as is my custom. I said that the hon. Member for Keighley must be the only person who did not know the purpose for which the Parliament Bill was introduced. It was introduced precisely because the House of Lords had the power, under the existing system, to make legislation by a Socialist Government inoperative for two years before a General Election, and it was necessary, therefore, to introduce it so that we could proceed with all the items in our legislative programme, whatever they might then be, including in this instance, as we now know, the nationalisation of steel.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: In that case why were we Labour candidates not told so at the last election, and why did not "Let us Face the Future" include a clear statement that the Parliament Bill would be introduced?
  Mr. Hale: As a matter of fact, it did. Perhaps there is even more that the hon. Member for Keighley might tell us. But much protesting, I would remind him, is usually rather a sign of guilt. He should remember that in this party we have the singularly democratic institution of party meetings. As he knows, these meetings are held quite frequently, often weekly, and in private, although from time to time there is a certain amount of public attention to them. I read the paper to which last week he contributed an article, at the end of which he decided not to accept his fee—I admire his discretion in that connection—and I should have thought that the hon. Member must have read in the "Evening Standard" of Labour Party meetings. Would he tell the House whether he has ever gone to these meetings and protested about the nationalisation of steel or has ever indicated that he has doubts about nationalisation?
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: If I may beg the indulgence of the House once again, let me say this. I have been told that such a meeting was held. I was not aware of it. I think I must have been abroad at the time. As hon. Members know, in the year 1946–47 I had to spend six months abroad on official business.
  Mr. Hale: I am very sorry that the hon. Member was not informed because, had he gone there and heard the extremely intelligent views which were expressed, they might have affected his own views. I think it right, too, that I should call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that his views have altered very rapidly in the last fortnight. If I might say so, I think he has had the most sudden conversion since that of St. Paul. He opened this particular argument by writing to "The Times" and saying that in the interests of the maintenance in power of the present Government, in the interests——
  Mr. Ivor Thomas Mr. Ivor Thomas rose——
  Mr. Hale: I have misquoted the hon. Member, and I accept that his words are not precisely those which I wish to use;
  738
  but because of the dangerous future, because of the conditions now mentioned, if he likes, in the Amendment which we are now discussing, it was desirable that there should be a cessation of controversy. [Interruption.] Well, the hon. Member will have read his speech of last week and found out whether there was a cessation of controversy. Does he feel that some of the references he made to some of his old colleagues and friends were in the interests of maintenance and respect for the Government of His Majesty's Dominions at this grave period of our history and at this time of crisis. I must now leave this subject, and I do so with pleasure. I can only say that
  We shall march prospering, not through his presence;
  "Songs may inspirit us—not from his lyre."
  I must turn to other subjects of nationalisation which remain to be discussed. Because of interruptions I apologise for dealing with them briefly. The hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. A. Allen), whom I am pleased to see in his place, represents the constituency in which I was born and in which I have lived all my life. He represents it a great deal better than any hon. Member I can ever remember. I was very happy to hear the tribute he paid to the Leicestershire miners and to progress under nationalisation. I hope he will forgive me for saying that in concluding his speech he omitted, I think, to point out one very brief and significant thing about his figures—that the Leicestershire coalfield is one in which there has been considerable mechanisation. It is the coalfield in which there are wider scams than in many other districts, in which the means of egress to the mine are better than in other places.
  It is only right that I should say this in fairness to miners elsewhere. It is right, too, that I should say it in fairness to the National Coal Board, because there is the coalfield in which their work can have the most immediate effect and which can earliest show the results that other coalfields will be able to show as the progress of mechanisation develops and reorganisation continues. Having lived all my life amongst coalminers I have nothing for which to apologise in the nationalisation of the coal industry.
  The one subject which the right hon. Member for Southport omitted to mention

  739
  was that of the coalminer. It is the sort of thing that happens a little too frequently for it to be other than the result of an attitude of mind. Miners' wages are higher; their hours of work are lower. Nobody can seriously suggest that they are over-paid or over-worked. His terms of compensation and his social services have been greatly increased. Life in the coal-mining villages today is vastly different to what it was even three years ago. The nationalisation of the coal industry has been justified abundantly by the peace in industry and the prosperity which is coming. It has been justified by the signs and portents of increasing production, increasing benefit and increasing happiness in these mining villages.
  I have already spoken for longer than I had intended, and I apologise. I conclude with two short comments. No reference has been made by the right hon. Member for Southport to the White Paper on Distribution of Industry. When we talk about national controls and about planning, it is right perhaps that we should have regard to that White Paper which speaks of those areas that bore the heaviest difficulties, burdens and sufferings of Tory rule aggravated by a steel industry that moved its works away in the interests of profits. The hon. Member for Bosworth will remember that my father was managing director of an engineering works closed down in 1923 because of amalgamations with other firms which bought them to close them down. The older men living in the town of Coal ville which he now represents never worked again. In those areas which bore that heavy burden, we have now 800,000 more people working than in 1932. That is a great achievement. In health we remember the dubious patriotism of hon. Members opposite over that controversy on the National Health Service; we recall the eagerness to seek political advantage, the willingness to cause controversy with the members of a very great profession. As a result of our Health Service today there are people who have now got teeth to gnash about the misdeeds of the Tory Government who never had teeth while the Tories were in power. In Oldham today there is an old lady of 90 who started to read last week because she received a pair of spectacles to suit her eyes. These
  740
  things are happening all over England. We see an ever-advancing standard of social insurance and social amenities under the work of this Government under a system of national control.
  A few short weeks ago I was sitting in the lovely planned city of Canberra amongst the flowering fruit trees, and I had the honour of an interview with the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth of Australia, a man who sprang from the working classes, a man of great ability and distinction who can point to a higher standard of living and a greater measure of social control in his country and in the adjacent friendly Socialist country of New Zealand than is to be found anywhere in the world. I know that he will not be offended if I repeat one observation that he made to me. As it came from such a man, I bring it back with glowing pride. He said that the spectacle of Great Britain alone in Europe, almost alone in the world, shouldering the burdens of Atlas, shouldering the problems of the world, still exercising throughout the world a moral influence, controlling and planning her future and yet at the same time expanding and increasing in unprecedented manner the whole of her social services, was an inspiration to the peoples of the Commonwealth of Nations and an inspiration to the peoples of the world.
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. Gammans: The hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) has complained that our condemnation of the record of this Government was lukewarm. I trust that I may remedy any deficiency in that direction. First, I congratulate him on not following the course of action adopted by his other hon. Friends and not setting up self-pitying moaning about the attitude of the Press. If ever there was an unctuous, thin-skinned lot of people it is hon. Gentlemen opposite who climbed into power by saying the most vile things about their political opponents—not only about their policies but also their personalities. I note, however, that the hon. Gentleman intends to carry on the usual line of Socialist propaganda, namely, that it was they who introduced every social service into this country. The truth is that this Government have not introduced a single social service of their own which was not approved in principle by the Coalition Government.
  Mr. Michael Foot: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why his party voted against the National Health Service?
  Mr. Gammans: The National Health Service was agreed to in principle by the Coalition Government and by the Conservative Party. What is more, the hon. Gentleman knows that. In this Debate we have two objectives. We are asked to approve the record of the Government over the last three and a half years and we are supposed to be showing our sense of blessing for things to come. We have had three and a half years of Socialism: I admit it seems very much longer. The plain truth is that the Government have failed utterly and completely in all the things that matter for the economic wellbeing of our people at home and our security abroad. Perhaps I am a little unkind to talk about utter and complete failure after the speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday. The Government have certainly carried out their pre-war election pledges to liquidate the British Empire. More Union Jacks have come down in the last three years than went up in the previous 50. Are we to have a target for the liquidation of the Empire? Are we to be told what part is to be liquidated next? If so, it would be rather interesting to know when we shall come to the Isle of Wight.
  I say that the Government have failed in everything that matters. They have failed to feed us as well as we were fed before and during the war—[interruption] I have no doubt that hon. Gentlemen opposite take great comfort from what the Minister of Food said yesterday about sweets and sugar. In the case of sweets, the Government have merely followed the advice given by Lord Woolton, and so far as sugar is concerned they have listened to the voice of the "Daily Express." Even so, we are told that we shall not be able to improve our standard of living until 1952—and that is if the target is reached. I may remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that on the whole they are not very good marksmen.
  What does the housing record of the Government boil down to when it is stripped of the windy verbiage of the Minister? It is simply that today, with the same labour force as before the war, we are building roughly half the number
  742
  of houses at three times the cost. Socialism has failed to maintain the value of the £ at home or to prevent a growing rise in prices. Soon the Government will be able to abolish all rationing and all points schemes. Goods will become so dear that rationing by the purse will become automatic. Not only have the Government failed to produce an efficient administration, they have failed to produce one which the country can afford. At the moment, in one way or another, the State and local authorities take 8s. 0d. in the £ of all our income. That is far beyond what the London School of Socialist Economics admits is possible in any State.
  For the first time in our history we are mendicants. The symbol of Britain is no longer the proud trident of Britannia, but the begging bowl. One out of every four meals we eat today come to us from the bounty of the United States. There are nearly two million unemployed in this country today, but they have been exported, if not in body, in economics, to the public assistance authorities in America. [Laughter.] That is perfectly true. In foreign affairs we are barely a second class Power in our influence and in our strength. Countries like Argentina, Chile and Guatemala can challenge us with impunity, and today we are on the brink of a war with Russia. a country with whom hon. Members opposite claim to have a special spiritual affinity.
  The outstanding failure of the Government in the last three and a half years is that they cannot persuade the British people—and I am not referring to any one class—to do a good week's work. Socialism is a creed which asks housewives to slave seven days a week so that the men can work for five. The Government have had the decency to admit that they have failed in that direction. The hoardings are plastered with posters making it perfectly clear that we have come to the end of our available resources in manpower and that unless we can get a greater amount of work out of each man this country cannot ever regain its independence.
  We have heard a lot about the wicked pre-war days. The hon. Member for Oldham gave us another chapter out of that distorted history, but with all its failures——
  Mr. Hale: If the hon. Gentleman is alleging distortion against me, would he tell me what distortion I committed?
  Mr. Gammans: I will tell the hon. Gentleman in a minute. With all its failures, it certainly did some things. It enabled this country to pay its way and stand on its feet. It did not ask women to stand for hours in queues. It provided us with food in the shops, and it made us a great Power respected throughout the world. It enabled this country when it went into the war, to stand on its own feet for two years, and it kept the British Empire intact as a great Power. With all its shortcomings, it brought home the bacon, both literally and metaphorically. What is the reason for this monumental failure of Socialism?
  Mr. Hale: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but he promised me faithfully that he would tell me at some suitable juncture in his speech what was the distortion which he alleged against me.
  Mr. Gammans: The hon. Gentleman suggested in his speech that no social services worth having had come into this country except under Socialism. That is a deliberate distortion of the facts.
  Mr. Hale: When did I say that?
  Mr. Gammans: Socialism is based upon a compendium of economic piffle. It believes that it is possible to get a quart of wages out of a pint pot of work. It says that hard work, initiative and enterprise are vices and not virtues. It believes that people can be taxed to death and at the same time be expected to work hard. It believes that the word "nationalisation" is a sort of holy incantation, and that one only has to mumble it often enough for the laws of economics to cease to flourish. May I remind hon. Members opposite of a famous saying by Benjamin Franklin:
  "Life's greatest tragedy is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts."
  That is exactly what is happening to this country.
  What has this country got out of nationalisation? Who is a penny better off at this moment because we are shareholders of the Bank of England or Cable and Wireless? All we know about Cable and Wireless is that in the first year of
  744
  nationalisation their profits were about half what they were under private enterprise. Why do not hon. Members opposite devote a whole of an hour's speech on a public platform trying to persuade the people how much they have benefited already under nationalisation? All the public knows is that prices have gone up, quality has gone down and they have lost the benefit of the consumer's choice. The only beneficiaries that I can see under nationalisation are sacked Cabinet Ministers and retired trade union officials. Every time a man buys a packet of cigarettes he pays an extra 3d. to make up for losses last year on the National Coal 'Board and also on civil aviation. That is a high price to pay for teaching hon. Gentlemen opposite the facts of life. When we consider that every passenger who travelled by B.O.A.C. last year cost the taxpayer over £60, it is obvious that it would have been far cheaper to have given the fellow £50 and sent him by train or to have bribed him to go by some other line, K.L.M. or Sabena.
  If nationalisation and Socialism are all that they are cracked up to be, why do not the Socialist Party base their propaganda on it? Why do they say "Ask your dad"? I always thought that the Lord President of the Council was a very astute party manager. It is true that during the war the Minister of Health called him a third-rate Tammany boss; I thought it was a little unfair at the time—I thought he was no worse than a second-rate Tammany boss. Why do they say "Ask your dad"? Why is it necessary to justify the Government's record by talking about the wicked old Tories? Why not bellow out all the virtues and achievements of Socialism? This "Ask your dad" business might prove to be a bit of a boomerang. Dad might have a better memory than the Lord President of the Council imagines. He might remember the number of unemployed under the second Socialist Government. Dad might remember the Socialist Party's record on re-armament. In fact he might be a nasty-minded dad who might look in vain for the war ribbons on the bosoms of the hon. Gentlemen who are now asking his son to enlist in the Territorials. Why not "Ask mum"? Mum might remember when she could buy as many eggs as she liked for 1 ½d. each. She might remember

  745
  when a child's frock cost 5s., and a few other things like that. I think this "Ask your dad" business may not turn out quite as the Lord President of the Council imagines.
  What is the second reason for this monumental failure of Socialism? It is not only their fantastic economics, but I suggest it is the deliberate attack on the fundamentals of the British character. When people are asked to work harder, they can still hear the strident tones of the Minister of Food telling them that hard work is unnecessary and that no one benefits but the boss. The boss is still there, even in nationalised industries, even if he is happily ensconced in a country mansion. When people are asked to enlist in the Territorial Army they can still remember what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said when he talked about "patriotism and all its tomfoolery," and when they are told of the importance of the export trade they can still remember what the Minister of Health said and what the Minister of War said when he told us that exports were only a swindle of capitalists. How can hon. Members with this record expect the country to take them seriously?
  Mr. Kirkwood: You never won a by-election.
  Mr. Gammans: There is no form of indigestion which is so difficult to cure as trying to swallow one's own words. Not even the Central Office of Information has been able to discover a brand of bicarbonate of soda which will cure it. Hon. Members opposite got into power by belittling all the real qualities upon which our survival depends. They sneered at patriotism, they ran down the British Empire, they decried hard work, they denigrated good manners, and put rights before duties. They have exalted the vulgarian and scrounger and made life safe for the spiv.
  The only boast hon. Gentlemen opposite can make, and it was made just now, is that they have not done too badly in the by-elections. That does not surprise me in the least, and I would not recommend hon. Gentlemen opposite to draw too much consolation from it. For one thing the great electoral tides in this country have never in the past receded very quickly. But also, the Government and the country are living in a com
  746
  pletely false sense of security. It is living on the combination of the American Loan and the pillaging of our national assets. The Government claim that the real wages of the working classes have gone up by 10 per cent. I doubt if it is true, but if it is true where has it come from? It certainly has not come from production. Half of it has come by eliminating the rich and also by reducing the standard of living of the middle classes by 20 per cent., and that is admitted in the White Paper.
  We are selling our assets abroad, ranging from the sale of Argentine railways to the threat of selling H.M.S. "Ajax" to the Chileans. But we can only pawn the furniture once. Father Christmas can do quite well for a time if he is in alliance with Bill Sykes. The trouble is that he cannot keep it up. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, including the Lord President, are always harping on the Tories having no policy.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Your speech proves it.
  Mr. Gammans: Well, I will tell them. May we ask, first of all, when we have got rid of all the windy verbiage, what is the policy of hon. Gentlemen opposite? So far as I can see, just as giant pandas can only live on bamboo shoots, so Socialism can only live on class hatred and a pathetic uncritical belief in nationalisation. What do their speeches mean, both in this House and on the public platform? Nothing, except the uncritical acceptance of nationalisation, interlarded with the usual envy and class hatred and the pulling down of people who have built up our British industry in the past. That is the beginning and end of Socialism.
  The Lord President has asked what is the policy of the Conservative party? The first thing in our policy is to get rid of the Lord President himself, and all that he stands for, and to provide this country with what it needs more than anything else today. That is leadership and a competent, experienced and, if I may say so, a united Government. What we can do for this country is to provide it with a Prime Minister who can both lead and inspire at home and abroad; a Foreign Secretary who will restore our tattered prestige throughout the world; a Chancellor of the Exchequer who will reduce taxation and reduce the rising cost of living; a Minister of War who will by

  747
  his words and personal record give confidence to the Army; a Minister of Food who knows something about business and a Minister of Health who will allow houses to go up as fast as they did before the war. That is the first plank in our policy. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite may think that amusing, I have no doubt that they do. But that is what the country wants today—a Government that can govern and one that can command self-respect.
  We shall also do our best to revive the Parliamentary standard of good manners and tolerance towards our political opponents. Another thing we shall do is to restore national unity and put first things first. When we have done this, then we shall get on with our long-term plans for agriculture and house ownership—co-partnership in industry and also plans for Empire development that are not restricted by doctrinaire Socialism. That is our policy and on that policy I am prepared to fight a General Election. and the sooner the better.
  6.45 p.m.
  Mr. Haworth: The hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) said, "This is the policy that people want." I cannot help wondering. if that was the case, why they do not vote for it. They have had opportunity after opportunity to turn out, or to refuse to send to this House, Members of the Labour party and they have not taken that opportunity. I was reading the life of William Graham the other day and I find in it a reference to a Government, I think it was the 1933 Government, which lost 46 seats before the General Election. So far as I know there was no admission at that time that that Government had lost public confidence. It was taken almost for granted, as it has been by past Governments, that people always blame the Government. It is the automatic thing that people who are discontented with anything should blame the Government and take the opportunity of a by-election to vote against it.
  It is a surprising thing and one about which every Labour Member ought to feel very proud, that during these unparalleled times of sacrifice and shortage —due to our success in the war and the fact that we threw everything we had into
  748
  winning the war—we have been able to preserve the confidence of the masses of the people. The hon. Member for Hornsey spoke about social services and said that we were all jointly responsible for them as a Coalition Government. I agree that the plans were drawn up for most of these and that they were elucidated in the White Paper issued by the Coalition Government. But does anybody in this House, or anybody at all, think if there had been a Conservative Government today with all the shortages, that they would have said the time was now opportune to bring in these social services? Why was there the controversy over Sir Kingsley Wood the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, bringing into operation the Children's Allowances Bill, when he steadfastly refused to give any promise of its implementation and the present Lord President of the Council had to go on hands and knees and plead with the Labour Benches to allow the Bill to go through without a date of implementation?
  Mr. Baxter: May I assist the hon. Gentleman's memory? One of the reasons why Sir Kingsley Wood did not say when this thing was going to be introduced was because he did not intend to go cap in hand and beg for American dollars to put it through.
  Mr. Haworth: All right, but at that very time they were receiving Lend-Lease. The reason was that he refused to commit the Government. He said it in so many words—I was not in the House but I read HANSARD—"I am not prepared to commit the Government, because we do not know what the financial position of the country will be at the end of the war." Hon. and right hon. Members opposite have taunted us with having done some of these things. They have rebuked us for raising the school leaving age. Hon. Members opposite have made speeches saying that we ought not to have raised the school-leaving age at a time when there was a shortage of labour. I am more proud of our record with regard to school children than I am of anything else in the record of the Labour Government. We are turning out healthier children. Weight for weight and age for age, our children today are one and a half pounds heavier and from half an inch to three-quarters of an inch taller compared with 1938. It must be

  749
  remembered that this is a time of shortage, when complaints are being made that we cannot get the food we need, but with schemes for free milk and free school meals we have been able to do that. We are told that much of this is vote catching. That is why I am so proud of our record in regard to school children, because they have no votes and we cannot be taunted with vote catching in their case.
  It was said by the Lord President of the Council that nationalisation must prove itself. I suggest that when the Opposition put down an Amendment the responsibility is on them to try to prove their case. I have listened to every speech on this Amendment and heard no case put forward for it. I heard several speeches which did not even mention the Amendment. There was an interesting disquisition on the "Daily Citizen," but I ask hon. Members to look up the records of the" Liverpool Daily Courier," which was ended at 24 hours' notice.
  Mr. McAllister: And the "Morning Post."
  Mr. Haworth: Men who had worked for 30 and 40 years on the staff of that paper were thrown on the streets without any notice whatever. This has nothing to do with the Amendment, but the subject was brought in by a previous speaker.
  A great deal of the Debate on nationalisation tonight is unreal; the real debate took place at the General Election. We fought out the issues now before us at the General Election and convinced a majority of the people. I remember very well the night of the declaration of the poll, when I addressed a meeting of about 5,000 people and thanked them for having returned me—rather to my surprise. I said that if when the next General Election came round I was not able to tell them that we had fulfilled the pledges made, I did not deserve to be sent back a second time as their representative. I suggest that our Party are creating political history in treating election promises seriously. "Let us Face the Future" was discussed by three Labour Party Conferences, carefully thought out, and a lot of things were rejected because we thought it would not be possible to implement them in five years. We meant business and told the people, "If you give us a mandate to
  750
  carry out these Measures, we promise that it will be implemented." When canvassing one so often had the reply that it did not much matter how people voted; it made no difference. That is why politics were in such low repute before the Labour Party came to power. The people were used to politicians making all kinds of wild promises to them at election time and then forgetting all about them until the next General Election came round.
  We have created history; we have gone to the people with a programme and when the next General Election comes we shall be able to go to them and say, "We have done it." I hope and believe we shall then be able to present them with another programme. The people will know when they vote for or against us that we mean business and that if we go to them with a programme it is going to be implemented, or they can turn us out. That is democracy. I quite agree that if the Opposition were able to say tonight that that was three and a half years ago and the circumstances have changed so that there is no reason for us to implement this particular part of our programme, we would listen to what they had to say.
  I listen as well as I can to what the Opposition say and if they were able to put a reasoned case of changed circumstances since 1945 we should be willing to listen. But has there been such a change? Have they put up a case which shows that, having nationalised other industries, we ought not to nationalise the steel industry? The only argument they can put forward is that this is not a bankrupt industry. How long has it been the rule that we should only nationalise bankrupt industries, and, if so, why do the Opposition reproach us that these industries are showing losses? They suggest that industries must be bankrupt or we are not justified in taking them over and then, when we take them over, they reproach us because the industries do not make an immediate profit. I think we should take over some of the prosperous industries and I have one or two in mind for consideration at the next election.
  On the question of coal, I do not think the price matters two pence. [HON.
  MEMBERS: "Oh."] No, coal is so vital, not only to Britain but to Europe, that it is worth double the price. I have

  751
  visited countries in Europe which are getting coal from Poland on the Russians' terms. The price is a minor matter——
  Mr. Martin Lindsay: Surely, the hon. Member recognises the fact that coal is the one factor more than any other on which the price of exported manufactured goods depends?
  Mr. Haworth: I do not agree at all. Coal decides the price of a number of articles, but it is so vital at present that price is secondary to the amount of coal produced. I am sure that is the view of many European countries. I have discussed it even with Prime Ministers of two European nations and that is the view they expressed although, naturally, they would like to get coal as cheaply as possible. The fact is that we could not have got a successful coal industry today unless it was nationalised. Two questions stood out which were absolutely demanding solution. One was coal and the other was India. The Leader of the Opposition has a view in regard to India which I do not believe any other responsible Member of his own party holds. We were absolutely compelled, morally and in every way, to give India self-government. In regard to coal I maintain that if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and his party had been returned to power, they would have been compelled by the logic of events to nationalise the industry. I do not think they could have resisted it.
  I am an ex-railway man and the railways are the subject I know most about. I happen to have been a trade union negotiator and I have been watching the developments of the nationalisation of the railway industry with very great interest. It has not finished its first year yet. We have a number of criticisms, which we shall voice. I believe that every speech I have made in this House has been partly critical as well as partly in praise of my own Government. On these benches we do not want a lot of vote-catching machines. We like people to use their minds and to say what they think.
  A great many of our people are disappointed that they have not been given a greater share in the control of the railway industry. There is a great
  752
  demand on the part of the workers in various industries, particularly those brought forward for nationalisation to be given a greater share in the control of industry. I believe there is a genuine attempt on the part of Sir Cyril Hurcombe, Chairman of the Transport Commission, and members of the Commission and members of the Railway Executive Committee to try to bring the workers in that industry into consultation. In the old days I was present at meetings of the Railway Staff Conference and of the General Managers' Conference. I have also been present at nearly all the meetings of the new Executive Staff Committee and I see a great improvement indeed. There is a new spirit abroad, and as far as we are concerned, we believe that nationalisation has meant a tremendous change for the workers in the industry. We have not solved all our problems by any means, but we are on the right way. Because of having nationalisation we can bring in a spirit of co-operation to a far greater extent than we could before nationalisation.
  One more criticism—and it is on the question of the control of the House of Commons over the new industries. I agree on this with the Opposition—I do not know whether it is from the same motive—and I feel a great deal of perturbation at the way we are setting up public corporations without any direct control by Parliament. I hope that the Lord President of the Council, for whose mind and thinking I have very great respect, will read my words on this question. Under private enterprise there was a board of directors, though they may not have been very effective. I attended one meeting of a board of directors and I was not struck with it. However, there was the board of directors and the shareholders' meeting once a year. That was at any rate some form of control. We are abolishing the board of directors and are setting up a public corporation, but we are not going to have an equivalent board of directors, which is this House of Commons. In the ultimate the corporation must be controlled by the House.
  If we are to meet with a refusal from you, Mr. Speaker, when we seek to put down Questions on the working of these various public corporations, I fail to see where any control

  753
  whatsoever is being exercised. This is a very great danger and there is a need for some way whereby democracy will be able to exercise its control. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas) is not here because when he spoke the other day he referred to a servile State. That is always the real danger. Let us face it. The more we go in for public ownership, the greater the danger of a servile nation unless we have adequate control.
  I have had a great deal of experience in local government. I have been chairman of a number of committees and have seen the workings of these organisations. It is a microcosm of the national position. Permanent officials will run the show so long as there are weak Ministers—Ministers who are not prepared to take over the reins of control but who permit their permanent officials to control matters. In such a situation there is the danger of a servile State. However, if there are people who are alive to their job there is no danger. The exercising of that control needs a live Ministerial person and it also needs a live House of Commons. It is up to us to see that a measure of control is exercised.
  Finally, I wish to refer to something which has been agitating my mind. On these benches we have got to admit a disappointment over one of our theories. The hon. Member for Hornsey spoke about the tragedy of a theory killed by a fact. Here is one. I am disappointed at the fact that what I have advocated on public platforms for the last 25 years, that if we nationalise an industry the people in that industry would work harder because they were working for the State than they would if they were working for a private employer, has not altogether worked out. I believed that, as did my hon. Friends on these benches. I do not know what my hon. Friends feel about it now, but I am very much disappointed that we have not had the results one would expect. We have had some increases. My hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. A. Allen) gave us some figures of the increase in production in the Leicester-shire coalfields, but there is a great need for something else.
  I want to suggest that we are losing in the Labour movement that great dynamic,
  754
  spiritual urge that was the basis of the movement under Keir Hardie and his friends in the early days. We are so interested in the mechanics and the machinery of our nationalisation programme that we are losing sight of the real basis of it—the moral and spiritual urge—that underlies all our activities. There is a need for us to get back to the Christian basis of our movement in order that we can still have the joy and comfort of doing things for a moral reason rather than merely for doctrinaire beliefs.
  So far as I am concerned I have seen something happening in Europe, in America and in Britain in the shape of the Moral Rearmament Movement which both sides of this House, and particularly the Front Benches, ought to look into. I have seen Prime Ministers of various countries very impressed by plays which they went to see and where they met the people running this Movement. A few nights ago at The Hague the Prime Minister of Holland with almost all the Members of his Cabinet went to see a play which these people were producing. I have seen this new spirit working in the coalfields of Britain and in South Wales and it is having a great effect, converting even Communists. I have known nothing else to do that, but I have known members of the Communist Party being so impressed with this Movement that they dropped their belief in Communism and become even greater revolutionaries in the cause of Jesus. The sooner we get back to this old-fashioned remedy for most of our evils, the sooner will there be that greater progress in the way we desire to travel.
  7.8 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Asto: Although I, personally, am not an advocate of Moral Rearmament as a motive force or religion, I would say that the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth) raised a very interesting point on the matter of incentives and moral values, particularly in considering the extent to which the State is assuming control in the affairs of the individual. He also raised an extremely interesting point which no hon. Member on either side of the House has been able to solve, and that is how Parliament, which was devised to legislate, can possibly run the detailed business of our industries. Neither the Government side nor its critics have been

  755
  able to find an answer to that. I can only say that if the hon. Member continues intellectually and politically in the same vein he will soon, of necessity, find himself a critic and an opponent of the present Government. The hon. Member rather took the wind out of my sails in that I had certain criticism to make of some of the things he said, when he stated that he knew very little about anything at all. That is an attitude of modesty which I rather applaud, and I am not trying to score a personal or party point in that connection at all.
  At the beginning of his speech he concentrated on the point whether the Tory Party would have put through the social services to which they were pledged. I think it is a waste of time to discuss that matter. I would say that they would have done so while hon. Members opposite say they would not, from which we would get no further. The hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) asked us why we opposed certain social services sponsored by the present Government, and the hon. Member for Walton answered that when he talked about certain criticism from this side of the House about the school-leaving age. There are certain critics in this party on the question of the opportuneness of raising the school-leaving age at the moment, but that does not mean we as a party are opposed to the Butler Education Act. One could apply the same argument to the various social services which were drawn up by the Coalition Government and were tampered with, altered, and, in our opinion, largely ruined by the present Administration.
  The hon. Member made a point which I had heard before when he said that this Debate was largely redundant because it had all taken place at the General Election. We know what the Labour Party thinks. The whole thing is theoretical. It was theoretical in 1945 apparently, and it has still to be judged upon a theoretical basis. I rather thought that this Debate was to discuss the merits of nationalisation and to see whether the evidence was there for a continuation in that process. The hon. Member made a further point. He said that he and his friends would be able to go to the country and say that they had carried out their pledges. His cry was to be "We've done it" and I suggest he adds the words
  756
  "and you've had it." On this matter of consistency I have something to say later in my speech.
  What a very different Debate this is from the earlier Debates. I remember the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster saying to this House: "We must get ahead and nationalise our industries because of the great benefits which will accrue to the public, because things will be cheaper while overheads will be reduced. It is the only sensible thing to do." Now the Chancellor, with his back to the wall, has been defending nationalisation because "it has not cost the public so very much." That is quite a different story. Merely because it will not cost the taxpayer or the consumer much more is no reason, as I have understood the matter, for nationalising an industry. As a party, we have always said that nationalisation must be treated on its merits.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy used, as I expected him to do, certain completely dishonest arguments in this matter. He was talking about the coal industry and the reason why it showed a deficit in its balance sheet in the early stages of nationalisation. He said it was caused by the need for capital re-equipment of various kinds. He went on to the next industry—Cable and Wireless—and said that we could still use certain services much more cheaply than could the Americans. He said that the Americans had had, under private enterprise a deficit in the balance sheet for the past year in respect of the Western Union Telephone Service. That was an unfair argument, because it contained a half-truth. The Western Union Telephone Service in the United States has had to go in for a great deal of capital re-equipment for exactly the same reason as the Chancellor gave in the case of the coal industry. With Western Union it was largely due to wear and tear during the war. I suggest to the Chancellor of the Duchy that in turning these corners a bit fast and trying to wriggle out of his position he ought at least to apply a modicum of intellectual integrity to the relative arguments in hand.
  I have noticed that the Labour Party are consistent in many ways. There is no intrinsic merit in consistency itself and in politics consistency is not necessarily a merit. When I look at the history of the Labour Party and then at the present

  757
  Gracious Speech I remember what the Labour Party has done since it first formed a government in this country, in the first Ramsay MacDonald administration. I see three tendencies in the Labour Party and if we consider those tendencies we can but adopt certain conclusions as to where Socialism will ultimately carry us. The first tendency we see, then as now, is the old myth that the Labour Party can get on quite well with the Soviet Union, the workers' paradise, etc., etc. This argument is not one which may suit the Foreign Secretary at this moment. I will only say in passing that the rest of his Party are in this respect rather slow off the mark. My conclusion is that the Labour Party will inevitably come to an agreement with Russia if they continue on their present lines, but it will be upon the Soviet Union's own terms.
  The second inclination which I saw in the first Labour Party was for the tail to wag the dog, that is to say for the extremist elements in the Party to exercise an influence in undue proportion to their numbers, over their own Front Bench. I see that tendency again today. It may not be a very large or fierce dog and it may not have a very large bark but the same thing is happening: and it will be bad if it goes unchecked. The extremist Left Wing element will eventually become the authentic and official voice of the Party. That has been the trend the whole time, and that is the conclusion we must draw.
  The third trend, which we saw in Philip Snowden's first Socialist Budget, was the Labour Party's disinclination to facilitate for working men the ownership of their own houses. Now I see the trend carried a stage further. Very soon the question whether anybody should own his own house or business will be merely a matter of the past. Discussion will be concerned with the degree of criticism the individual will be allowed to voice as regards the public ownership of goods which were formerly held in private hands.
  I did hope to criticise the speech made yesterday by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) and I have given him notice of this. I was going to take up certain points which he made. Unfortunately, however, I find that I cannot do that within the Rules of Order, except on two rather minor points. I have
  758
  nothing personal against the hon. Member. I believe he meant what he said in the Debate yesterday. I do not believe that he is a fellow traveller but I think that he is the dupe of the sort of propaganda which the Communists are putting out at the moment.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy said—and this relates to something which the hon. Member for Stoke said—in one of his remarks today that there was an alternative solution to the problem of unemployment in between the two wars. If he said anything at all, it was that we live and learn. I believe he was implying that it was not merely Marshall Aid which was keeping down our unemployment figures, but that it was the result of Socialist theory applied. If he says that, he is, not for the first time in his life, talking against the Lord President of the Council and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who frankly admit that were it not for Marshall Aid there would be one million and a half more unemployed in this country.
  When considering the merits or demerits of nationalised industries we must remember the subsidy to employment and indeed to consumer goods which Marshall Aid is providing at the moment. I suggest to the hon. Member for Stoke that it is not helpful to refer to Marshall Aid in ungenerous terms as being a self-centred and mean act on the part of America. The right hon. Member the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) has answered that point adequately. I have been in Washington while those negotiations were going on. I am certain that Congress over there would never have passed Marshall Aid merely in the interests of their domestic budget. I am not saying that that would have been right or wrong. I personally think they would have been wrong in their own self interest, but the fact remains that they would not have passed Marshall Aid for solely internal reasons. It was largely an altruistic act in order to preserve what they regard as the British way of life, in the free countries of Europe.
  That is why I am so distressed when I hear what I regard as utterly irresponsible talk going out. I would only suggest to the hon. Member—I cannot refer to his points one by one, much as I should like to—that he makes a comparison of behaviour between the United States and

  759
  the Soviet Union from the first day of Lend-Lease, when Russia, having attacked Finland, was negotiating a treaty with Hitler, and that he carries that comparison through to the final stages of the war, when he will find in the United States there was pro-Russian propaganda and in Moscow anti-British and anti-American propaganda. I would like to see him take that comparison right through the whole course of the war and see whether he would not revise the conclusions he expressed last night.
  Lastly the hon. Member for Stoke raised a point of extreme importance; indeed, it is of almost constitutional importance. I will try to recall the remarks which led up to it. The hon. Member was saying something which I thought was outrageous, to the effect that my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was more a cause of international friction than anything else, and that the Labour Party believed in the brotherhood of mankind—who does not? —that we should revive the Peace Pledge Union, and that although the League of Nations Union has gone there was the United Nations Association, that in fact we should bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best. That is the sort of story the hon. Member told, based on the fact that the Labour Party want to be friends with everybody. At that point I could not stand his argument any longer, and I shouted out either "Drivel" or "Nonsense." The hon. Member replied," I will debate this outside in public, and we will see who is right." That is most interesting because it represents to my mind an entirely wrong conception of democracy.
  The hon. Member was in fact saying that in this particular case matters of policy, whether they be foreign policy or domestic policy, should be decided by, in this case, the approval of 50 per cent. of the general public. That is legislation by Gallup Poll. which I would point out makes no allowance for leadership. In a democracy the mean level of intelligence in the general public is very average; it must be, or the word "average" would be quite meaningless. I suggest that the only proper system under which democracy can work at all is that once a party has been returned to power by a free and secret vote it should select from its members its brightest and
  760
  most experienced people to set about defining its policy. That is the idea of leadership, choosing people who are a little better than the average.
  I believe that what the hon. Member said illustrates a feeling which pervades the other side of the House. One sees it in the passing by the T.U.C. of resolutions against the Foreign Secretary. That is the way to make democracy a complete shambles, and if democracy becomes a shambles it will soon be replaced by a system of totalitarian government of the Left, which would make this whole discussion this evening one of entirely academic interest.
  Dr. Morgan: Can the hon. Member give any date or mention any Congress when the T.U.C. passed any resolution against either the personality of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs or his policy?
  Mr. Astor: I believe that I can but I have not the reference at my finger tips. I was implying that a mass opinion on an intricate matter of policy was not the way to legislate—[An HON. MEMBER: "Greece."]—my hon. Friend mentions Greece, which I think should remind the hon. Member of the point I make——
  Dr. Morgan: The hon. Member made a statement—
  Mr. Astor: I am trying to deal with a particular point which the hon. Member for Stoke raised, and which I think is of some constitutional importance. Whether we are discussing nationalisation in the past or the future, we should be clear about the principle of laying down policy. I am sorry that I cannot go into these detailed matters with the hon. Member for Rochdale (Dr. Morgan).
  With regard to the reference to the steel Bill in the Gracious Speech, I suggest that before plunging forward we should at least examine the extent of success or failure of the policy of which it is a continuation. That is the purpose of this Debate. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster rather took up the attitude of proving that the taxpayer was not very much out of pocket. I noted that he most carefully avoided the argument as to whether the consumer was more out of pocket. There is a case the Government could make in saying it is a little early to reach final conclusions

  761
  in these matters. I would concede that, but if it is agreed that it is a little early to reach final conclusions upon these matters one has no right to say "How do we arrive at the evidence about nationalisation to justify us going another stage further and taking over the iron and steel industry."
  I would like to know, and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster did not mention this, whether Members opposite now think that they did the right thing when they nationalised or rather abolished the Liverpool Cotton Exchange? Are they quite so certain today that it was the right thing to do? I would like to know whether the figures can be produced to show how much the British public have lost, how much this country has lost, in foreign currency as a result of the step which this Government took. I would also like to know the number of expert operatives in the cotton futures market who are now being employed abroad by foreign countries. I would like to know whether the idea that the ordinary laws of supply and demand in these commodities, if one can call people commodities, is so completely wrong in the opinion of the Labour Party, that it is of no significance that these highly skilled people, or large numbers of them, are being employed in other countries, in competition with this country. That is a point which the hon. Member was able to gloss over because he could have said, "We have not nationalised the Cotton Exchange, we have abolished it."
  If we look at the King's Speech, and indeed at earlier King's Speeches, we see a mixture of Socialism in the form of the nationalisation which is proposed, and legislation which by and large is for the weak and needy in this country, legislation which, as has already been stated, was largely devised and conceived by the National Government. That is all very well. One can say, if one wishes, that legislation should be for those who are weakest and need it most, but there is one thing of which I accuse this Government, namely, of shirking the responsibility for creating an opportunity for those who are not quite so weak, those who are a little more enterprising, maybe a little more courageous, who are prepared to chance a little bit more. I accuse the Government of avoiding responsibility for creating an opportunity
  762
  for those people to get on. It seems to me, to use a metaphor, that the more the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Minister of Health breathe down the neck of the Prime Minister, the more he says is "What we want 'for the likes of me is social security,'" and that the responsibility for creating opportunities is entirely overlooked.
  I wonder if these matters have really been overlooked? Is it really just an oversight? I wonder whether it is not deliberate, if it is not really the motivating theme in any revolutionary Socialist movement? I wonder whether it is not the thing to which de Tocqueville referred in passing judgment on the French Revolution, when he said that jealousy and envy were the two human appetites which more often got political expression than any other human appetites. I believe that in recent years there has evolved a technique for using these fears and appetites. I think that a lot of the legislation and the way in which it is balanced is largely based on jealousy, is largely based on envy, which really, in itself, is no criterion of merit.
  I would like to continue on this theme, but I feel the Debate, strictly speaking, is in the sphere of nationalisation and these final points, therefore, are perhaps for another time. I would end by saying this: I have talked about the trend of the Labour Party in listening to its extremists. The responsibility for that, in my opinion, lies with the Prime Minister. A great number of people in the country and in the House still see the Prime Minister as a moderate Socialist. I do not believe he is a moderate Socialist, in so far as he is responsible for a great deal of extreme socialisation in a very short period of time. I think posterity will say not that he was a moderate Socialist, not particularly that he was an extreme Socialist, but rather more that he was an extremely moderate Prime Minister.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. Diamond: Whether we agree that the Prime Minister is moderate or not, certainly all will agree that he is an obstinate Prime Minister. He is certainly obstinate in that the terms of the official Opposition Amendment accuse this Government of "obstinately" persisting in a policy of nationalisation. I am very glad indeed that our Prime

  763
  Minister is persisting in this policy and I hope to address to the House a few reasons why that policy is one in which we should persist.
  We have not had a great deal of help from the Opposition this afternoon in explaining to us why we should desist from nationalisation. We have heard a great many things about a great many subjects but very few of the remarks indeed have been directed to nationalisation. The hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Astor) said two things, one of minor importance and one of major importance, with which I can agree. The point of minor importance which he expressed, and which is true, was that the mean level of intelligence of this nation was average. That is a statement with which I heartily agree. Of course, if it is not average I do not know what "the mean level" means. The other remark he made, and which was perhaps of more importance, was that it is perhaps early to come to any conclusion—any final conclusion—about the effects of nationalisation. That, I think, is true; it is rather early to reach any final conclusion.
  Nevertheless, we are permitted during the first innings of a cricket match to express opinions on how the game is going without necessarily waiting for the final score of the final innings. That is what I hoped we could do this afternoon. I cannot argue this matter on a political basis. I cannot say, "We on this side of the House stand for nationalisation and those on the other side of the House are opposed to nationalisation," because on not one occasion have we been told that any single one of our nationalisation Measures is in the programme of the Conservative Party for revocation.
  The most one can say, therefore, is that whereas both sides of the House are agreed that the nationalisation which has taken place hitherto is wise and proper, and was indeed inevitable in the circumstances of this country after the war—as we found those circumstances—this side of the House, especially since a little pruning took place a day or so ago, is unitedly convinced that to pursue a policy of nationalisation is in the best interests of this country; not only will it continue the undoubted economic improvement which has taken place in our affairs, but it will widen the scope of those who wish
  764
  to take part in industry and will give continuing hope to our people.
  If I may, let me deal with another point raised by the hon. Member for East Surrey. He said that nobody so far had dealt with the question of how this House is to control the business of the nationalised industries. This House passes laws, and the laws of nationalisation have made it perfectly plain that the responsibility for the management of the day-to-day affairs of every nationalised industry is in the hands of the boards of those respective industries and not in the hands of any Minister responsible to this House.
  That policy has been frequently discussed; it is a wise policy and I should be very much surprised indeed if any hon. Member opposite who has any experience in industry, were to get up and say, "It is a good thing that those who are responsible for the day-to-day affairs of management should continuously have to be questioned and should have to report back to somebody else in authority as to why they did this, why they did that and should have to ask, 'Please may I do something else?'" That has never been suggested from the other side. Accordingly, we act on the principle that it is essential for efficiency and proper management that we should have people capable of exercising responsibility and we say, having chosen the right people, "For Heaven's sake give them some reasonable latitude to show that they are capable of doing the job."
  Mr. Astor: The matter I raised was a matter of scrutiny by hon. Members of this House of the conduct of nationalised industries.
  Mr. Diamond: I am much obliged to the hon. Member and I am about to come to that. I was dealing first of all with the important point that it is accepted on both sides of the House that day-to-day affairs of the management of nationalised industries are not a matter for the Minister or, therefore, for this House. If I may say so, with all respect, it is not therefore a matter within your discretion, Sir, when it comes to putting Questions on the Table. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Haworth), who spoke before me from this side of the House, was, I am afraid, in error in suggesting that it was in any way within your discretion, Sir, when certain

  765
  Questions relating to these matters were refused at the Table. It is, of course, a matter for this House to decide in which way nationalised industries should be run. Having decided, that, we keep to our Rules.
  Now I come to the point raised by the hon. Member for East Surrey—in which way, therefore, are we to exercise a reasonable scrutiny over nationalised industries and their affairs? In this respect I think today's Debate is a glorious example of all the vague, unsubstantiated accusations which will be hurled from both sides of the Chamber unless we develop some machinery for finding out the true facts. I apologise for coming back to this matter once more because I have already touched on this subject in the House. I refer to the machinery of an efficiency audit carried out by the Comptroller-General, who would have not only his present audit functions but the addition of efficiency audit functions in conjunction with a Select Committee of this House composed, of course, of both sides of the House. The Committee would be able to examine the auditor's report in an objective manner, in the non-party manner in which Select Committees always do examine these things upstairs.
  We cannot, of course, leave that matter to either of the two existing Select Committees because they have the responsibility of examining expenditure coming out of public funds. We are not concerned here with expenditure coming out of public funds; we are concerned with expenditure made by the nationalised corporations. If we are to have any reliable facts, any reliable test of efficiency which can be used, it is essential that we should have machinery of this sort set up so that the hon. Member for East Surrey and myself will not have to say to one another, "I think this was right" or "I think that was right" or "I really cannot say because inadequate information has been published." We shall be able to say, "This matter has been examined by the Comptroller-General in his new capacity, has been fully gone into by a proper Select Committee, that Select Committee has laid its report before us." In that way this House will be informed fully and adequately of the progress of nationalised industries in carrying out their duties of efficient management.
  Brigadier Head: The hon. Member is putting before us a solution of this very difficult problem, but it seems to me that this is the first difficulty, that because of the number of industries which are likely to be nationalised, the Comptroller-General will have a very busy time, because with the immensely wide sweep of nationalisation it does not seem practical for any one Select Committee or any one man to keep abreast of the various activities.
  Mr. Diamond: I am obliged to the hon. and gallant Member. Of course, I could go into the matter at great length, but there is an excellent pamphlet that is about to be published by the Fabian Society that will give the hon. and gallant Member the answers to all these questions. It is only modesty that prevents my naming the author. The answer is, of course, that no single person would carry out the efficiency audit. What is required is a team, co-ordinated by the Auditor-General. Secondly, there is no earthly reason why these efficiency audits should be carried out every year. There could be test audits carried out and interim reports made every year and the complete audit every three or five years.
  Therefore, to answer the hon. and gallant Member's point, there is no practical difficulty whatever in an efficiency audit team's working and reporting through the Auditor-General and a Select Committee of this House. Thus we should have the facts produced to us in an impartial way, enabling those who are responsible for carrying on these industries to be freed from, as it were, heckling at second hand by somebody asking Parliamentary Questions which they themselves cannot come here to answer. They would be brought before the Select Committee. Select Committees always carry out their functions by hearing evidence from witnesses—hitherto, mostly civil servants. It would enable the responsible members of the nationalised boards to put forward their points of view and to explain to the Select Committee the policy behind the various actions taken. I hope I have answered the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question as to what is the appropriate machinery for enabling this House to ascertain the facts, and to have an opportunity of fully discussing them, without, at the same time, offending against the cardinal

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  principle of management, that those who have a job to do should have a reasonable opportunity of getting on with it.
  Mr. Astor: Does the hon. Gentleman think that this intricate machinery for reaching a decision would be as effective as the chairman of a board of directors of a private company, who can make a decision in a matter of hours?
  Mr. Diamond: As a chairman of a board of directors, did the hon. Member say?
  Mr. Astor: Yes.
  Mr. Diamond: Let me immediately plead guilty to being chairman of two boards of directors, and, as such, say without hesitation that an answer given in this way would be much wiser and more soundly based on knowledge than any answer which any chairman of any board of directors could give, because the chairman is not trained in all the detailed matters relating to the science of management.
  Brigadier Head: May I pursue the matter? Would not the hon. Gentleman's suggestion mean we should have masses of working parties and audit boards. involving immense manpower overheads?
  Mr. Diamond: I am even more grateful to the hon. and gallant Gentleman than I was for his earlier interruption. Of course, the answer is in the pamphlet to which I have referred. The question gives me a further opportunity of mentioning it. The answer to that is, that every company which formed part of a nationalised industry before nationalisation took place had its own audit by an individual firm of auditors. What happens now is that we have complete co-ordination. All the firms are merged into one organisation, and we have one audit. I have gone into the question of the time it would take. I can say without hesitation—I hope that my own institute will not bear me any for what I am about to say—that the time that would be taken by the professional auditors, plus that taken by the efficiency audit team to carry out the efficiency audit, would be enormously less than the time taken by the hoards of auditors who acted for the firms severally, carrying out separate audits for the separate
  768
  companies. That, of course, is merely one of the advantages that naturally flows from nationalisation. Wherever we have co-ordination we have a saving in overhead expense.
  Brigadier Head: I hope the hon. Member does not mind my constant interruptions, but they give him opportunities of mentioning his pamphlet. Surely he must admit that the lesson of nationalisation is not one of co-ordination and economy in manpower? Surely, the lesson we have had so far is, that wherever we have had nationalisation, we have had an increase in centralisation and an increase in the bureaucratic staffs in Whitehall?
  Mr. Diamond: If that is the main plank upon which the hon. and gallant Member chooses to speak against nationalization——
  Brigadier Head: It is the fact.
  Mr. Diamond: —I can only wish that he would examine it to discover the dry rot. It is such an ancient argument——
  Brigadier Head: It is a true one.
  Mr. Diamond: —and is entirely unsubstantiated by the facts.
  Brigadier Head Brigadier Head rose——
  Mr. Diamond: Let me answer the last question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman before he asks me the next. I can only assume that he was not here in the earlier part of the Debate today when the Chancellor of the Duchy referred to this very point in connection with the directors' fees of Cable and Wireless. My right hon. Friend showed that the directors' fees since nationalisation were less than a quarter of the directors' fees before nationalisation. From nationalisation we have complete co-ordination and a reduction of overheads, add one example has shown a reduction of over 75 per cent.
  We are, therefore, forced to this conclusion. Both sides of the House will agree, apparently, that nationalisation of the industries which have so far been nationalised by this Parliament, and many previous Parliaments, is a good thing. However, hon. Members opposite think that the nationalisation of any industry which we may choose to nationalise henceforth is a bad thing. We have not heard one constructive speech saying precisely why that is. Not one.

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  I can only say that I come to the same conclusion as my hon. Friend the Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth), and that is, that the nationalisation of the industries the Government have so far nationalised the coal, transport, electricity and
  gas industries—has not hurt. Nobody really minded, looking at it from the point of view of shareholders and dividends, and good times to come. Nobody really minded whether gas was nationalised—although if one had been upstairs from time to time one would have thought some people did. However, nobody really minded the nationalisation of gas, or of electricity, which was half nationalised before. Certainly, nobody minded the nationalisation of coal. Nobody minded the nationalisation of the Bank of England. It made no difference to the stockholders, who got exactly the same control as they had before—to whit, none—and exactly the same dividends as before.
  What, then, is the difference between the industries which have been nationalised, and which are not to be denationalised if the Tories come to Power, and the industries we are to nationalise through this Government? I can only assume that the great difference is, that steel is something in which a number of people are interested as to their pockets. I am sorry to say that, but I can see no other reason at all, and until some reason is put forward, I shall have to keep to that one.
  May I refer to some of the other advantages which I expect to flow from nationalisation, none of which have been disproved by the Opposition today, and all of which are indicated, if not finally proved, in the reports which we have had so far. Before turning to that matter, may I quote from a man who has very great knowledge of business, and whose views I respect on this very question of profits. He said in his speech, as reported in "The Times" of 13th October—and I can only assume that it is an accurate report—that he profoundly distrusted those industrialists who said,
  "'The only thing that I want in my business is to be left alone.' That was mere nonsense and only meant, 'So long as we are making a profit, leave us alone.'"
  As applied to the steel industry, "So long as we are making a profit leave us alone," seems to be the whole explanation. The speaker I am referring to, of
  770
  course, was the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton).
  The further advantages which I expect to accrue from nationalisation arise out of the meaning of nationalisation, which I must refer to, because no one has touched on this matter today, certainly not on the other side. All that happens in nationalisation is that ownership gets transferred from a number of people to a very large body of people called the nation. That is all that happens. We in this country are in this position: We have various assets, plant, knowledge, and "know how," as our American friends call it, and we have a labour force and people determined to make this country successful. All we are able to do is so to use our knowledge and labour force in conjunction with our plant and other assets as to create the greatest possible economic wealth for this country, and the using of these is what we call the function of management.
  The function of management has nothing whatever to do, or should have nothing whatever to do, with the fact of proprietorship; but unfortunately what does happen mostly in private industry today is that there is very frequently a clash between proprietorship and the function of management; and I would say of nationalisation that its chief merit lies, in this context, in removing from management the trammels and limitations which proprietorship set upon it.
  We shall only get really efficient management if we are rid of the problem of proprietorship, which we are rid of under nationalisation because that is taken care of by the nation. I cannot see why any citizen of this country whose concern is with management and the creation of wealth should object to the nation as a whole having the final ownership of the assets of our industries. I cannot see why anyone should object to that, unless, of course, his interest is not the creation of wealth for the country as a whole but rather the making of profits in which he himself will have a very large share.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case that the main idea of nationalisation is that the parasites should go out of business and the workers should get the fruits of their labours?
  Mr. Diamond: I cannot accept that. I hope that we are examining this problem in the non-party spirit in which this Debate is inevitably conducted, because there is no disagreement between the two sides about nationalisation in principle. We are only disagreeing about the point where nationalisation stops.
  Major Tufton Beamish: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that there is some point at which his party wishes to stop nationalisation, and, if so, can he say what the disagreement is between the policy of his party and the long-term policy of the Communists?
  Mr. Gallacher: The hon. Gentleman has a bee in his bonnet.
  Mr. Diamond: I can certainly say that there is a point at which this party will stop nationalisation, but I am not going to tell the hon. Member yet, because that point has not been decided on, and we as a democratic party make our policy on facts and events as they transpire.
  Major Beamish: Has the hon. Gentleman never heard of nationalisation of production, distribution and exchange. If that does not mean everything, what does it mean?
  Mr. Diamond: It is extremely to be regretted that any Member in this House —because everyone here has an opportunity of mixing with people of reasonable intelligence and knowledge—should still think in such mistaken terms as to believe that that is a reference to nationalisation of every single industry, business and shop in this country. I am astonished that the hon. Member should believe it.
  Major Beamish: Very interesting.
  Mr. Diamond: The other changes which arise out of nationalisation arise from the fact that we are a democratic people, and we have a great opportunity for the expansion of our democracy in the economic and industrial field. It is not enough that our democracy should be limited to political rights. That is not enough for a nation which wants a full, whole and happy life for its citizens. We must extend our sense and knowledge of democracy into the industrial field, and only through nationalisation can that be achieved. Only in that way can the difficulties and cross-currents of private ownership be eliminated and full rein
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  given to the needs of management and of the workers themselves engaged in an industry. Only in that way will there be no vested interests.
  It is, of course, a further advantage that efficiency is improved inevitably. One has complete co-ordination, a centralised policy, a reduction in overhead expenses, and one does not have the trouble of having to put up with directors and managers whose sole claim to their position is that they went to the right school, or came from the right family, or know the right people.
  Sir William Darling: Nonsense.
  Mr. Diamond: The hon. Gentleman is mistaken.
  Sir W. Darling: The Directory of Directors will confirm me.
  Mr. Diamond: It will confirm exactly what I am saying. If the hon. Gentleman will look into the affairs of many companies, he will find, without doubt—and I think that his own personal experience bears me out—that in many cases we have the coincidence that the names of many of the directors are all the same and the names of the junior directors are often the same as the names of their fathers, the senior directors, or uncles already on the Boards. I do not know whether it is seriously suggested that a father who is a director of a company does not try to get his son into that company and, if possible, get him a seat on the board. That happens every day, and the sooner we end it the better. My point is that the test in private industry is not limited to the test of ability to do the job, as in nationalised industry. All the other factors are taken into account, and I believe that only in this way shall we achieve the real efficiency which this country needs if it is to be put back firmly on its feet.
  I hope, therefore, that either we shall carry on with our nationalisation of industries where that is appropriate, and so improve the efficiency and production of this country, or else that we shall have from the Opposition some telling remarks and effective and factual contribution to our Debate, which will show any one of us on this side why we should hesitate to continue what I am satisfied is the right policy for the country at the right time.
  8.0 p.m.
  Sir William Darling: I have the advantage over you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, of having heard a number of very interesting and excellent speeches this afternoon. I heard one from my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson), who made the Government benches exceedingly wroth by his revelation—which I thought quite pertinent—of the incompetence of the management of the "Daily Citizen," which was set up by a number of politicians and became a financial disaster. He adduced his argument to show that politicians were not good at business. I think he offered a devastating and conclusive argument. He was followed by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale), who gave us a quotation from Thomas Babington Macaulay, a reference to Robert Montgomery the poet which he did not develop, although I know the hon. Member for the Devonport Division of Plymouth (Mr. Foot) would have liked him to do so—a further reference, unnamed, and a quotation from Robert Browning, which I thought was his peroration, but he continued his speech for a time after that in an attack of a somewhat bitter character upon the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas), who after all, has only changed his mind about the desirability of extending nationalisation further. That was the speech to which we listened from the hon. Member for Oldham.
  I was flattered, however, by the hon. Member for Oldham, because he developed his argument by quoting from a speech which I had the honour to deliver in this House in connection with the nationalisation of the Bank of England. I was flattered by his reference, because I, having studied such an interesting Member's career for many years, remembered that he, too, at one time had been a member of the Liberal Party, and had in fact stood as such for a constituency, but had now changed his mind.
  It is in this diverse atmosphere that I rise to speak. I am admittedly profoundly disappointed at what I have heard from the Government Benches. The more recent speeches, particularly that from the hon. Member for the Blackley Division of Manchester (Mr. Diamond) greatly depressed me. Members of the
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  Opposition are asked what is their alternative to nationalisation. Well, I speak as a moderately independent member of the Conservative Party. I think that nationalisation is a mistake, both politically and economically, and I will tell the House why.
  I think that the Government should stand out of business, that the Government should say to the organisers of industry in this country: "Make the machinery, produce the food, give us the goods and services, and do it rightly. If you do not do it rightly, wisely and competently we will see that someone else does." But once the Government of the day, on the advice of this promised pamphlet from the Institute of Business Management and the Fabian Society, becomes the sole monopolist, the public are in the position of the customers of Mr. Henry Ford. Mr. Henry Ford's customers sometimes said to him: "We like your cars, but we do not like their colour." "I do not understand that," said Mr. Ford. "You can have any colour you like so long as you take black." Under a State monopoly system the consumer—and, after all, it is the consumer I stand for, because I am not representing a political party—has to take what he gets; he has to, every time.
  Mr. Ronald Mackay: What about Henry Ford?
  Sir W. Darling: Choice—which is, write it down, the mark of freedom—is gone, under the State monopoly, because State monopoly becomes narrower and more limited.
  My view, then, is that if a Government remains out of economics and leaves the conduct of economics to the business society, it can then serve the public, it can put one against the other, and it can raise standards. But once it has embarked upon such a career, there can be no choice: it, and it alone, can be the standard, and the elaborate cost accounting audit desired by the hon. Member for the Blackley Division of Manchester is the most sterile and barren substitute for a living community. I venture to think that he is well aware of that; he has all the appearance of one of those who favour these intricate and valueless audits merely to please the Comptroller-General.

  775
  I am greatly disappointed because the only defences of nationalisation have been qualified. The hon. Member for the Walton Division of Liverpool (Mr. Haworth), who made a most interesting and eloquent speech, was quite clear in this view. Nationalisation was not quite working in the industry which he knew so well—the railway industry; it was not giving the satisfaction of those incentives under the principle "Each for all and all for each," the ideals of William Morris and the founders of the Socialist movement; it was not turning out as he expected; he regretfully admitted that the carrot and the stick were necessary inducements to make people work, and do, and strive. He said so. And ended his speech with what? Not a justification of nationalisation. He was afraid that the bare bones of that thing would feed no one. What he said was "Unless you have moral rearmament, unless you go back to Christian religion, unless you re-erect the standards of Christian morality, heaven help nationalisation—or indeed any society." A very old conclusion, with which I agree. But where then is the argument for socialisation of the means and instruments of production, distribution and exchange?
  If that argument failed to help the hon. Member and it did not seem to me to help nationalisation very much—how much less hope of it in the new protégé of the Fabian Society? I thought the Fabian Society died with Lord Passfield; I thought it had disappeared. It is a long time since I saw a pamphlet from them—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—Well, it is a long time since I saw a pamphlet, which means that they are less urgent and less ardent than in the days when the Fabian essays were first published, when they received and deserved such a large public reading.
  The second thing is to sweeten the pill of nationalisation. We are to have an elaborate system of cost accountancy, where the public have to take what they can get, and where they are not even allowed to bring to this House pertinent questions, to ask Ministers, "If you please, can we have a better railway service? If you please, can we have an improvement in our cables system?" They are not allowed to ask any of these questions. The picture painted by the Goverment side of the House confirms
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  my worst fears and my gravest anxieties about nationalisation. I must say, the hon. Member for Keighley is by no means a pioneer in this crossing of the Floor of the House. I was brought up to look askance upon these cruel evils of complicated modem society, and tempted by the simple souls which these second generation Socialists have inherited from their fathers to accept the easy solution of the abolition of competition and the substitution of State monopoly. I believed that
  "These should be ours and all men's,
  And none should lack their share,
  Of the toil and the gain of living
  In the days when the world grows fair."
  I learned these things, and I learned to believe them; but I have grown old and I have grown experienced
  I am rather in the position of the man in the story which Mr. George Bernard Shaw told years ago at a meeting, when he stood for the St. Pancras Guardians. I remember that he was being attacked—because at that time, as now, the Socialist Party tore the bowels and guts out of each other with foul vindictiveness—for not having been a first-class Marxist, or whatever was the dogma of the hour. He then told the story of how Peter the Hermit stumping Europe for—which Crusade? The Third Crusade, shall we say? Nobody can contradict me; not even the history professors now present. Peter the Hermit was stumping Europe for the Third Crusade, and when he got to Styria he made a great speech, at the end of which every man, except one, who had listened to him shouted with one voice, "To the Holy Land." Peter the Hermit, like most Socialist orators, was not accustomed to a minority of even one inattentive to his pleadings, and when the knights and barons were saddling up and kissing farewell to their wives, preparing for this great crusade to the Holy Land, Peter the Hermit said to this silent one: "Sir, is it nothing to you that the home of our blessed Lord lies in the hands of the Saracens? Is it nothing to you that the Holy Land is in the hands of the Infidel?" The man said "No." Peter the Hermit then pleaded with him: "Are you not coming with these gallant men who are already preparing to go?" But the man replied "No." "I charge you to give me the reason. Why are you not going to the Holy Land with the rest of

  777
  them? "He said" Because I have been there."
  Well, like the hon. Member for Keighley, I have been there. I am not living in the half lights of dim Socialism illuminated by moral re-armament. I am not living in the sterile world of clerks and inkwells. I have been there. I am back in a livelier and braver society which deserves better leadership than it is getting. I should like to think that the end of mankind is not the socialisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange. I should like to think that this great test, and striving with all its cruelties and with all its miseries, will go on increasingly. [Interruption.] I believe in a system which maintains these qualities. not in a system which stifles and stultifies the spirit of man.
  I want to make quite clear what is in the minds of most people like myself, for I have a great deal of vanity and believe that I represent a large number of people in this country. We are being asked by the Government to extend the system of nationalisation, and we are told that the success of nationalisation, both politically and economically, warrants the experiment. There are about 50 million people in this country. I put it to you, Sir, is it seriously supposed that the fact that I am today an owner of the Bank of England has changed my life from what it was five years ago? Is it seriously said, in the streets and in the lanes, on the fields and on the hills of our country, that the people rejoice today, almost every hour, saying, "Five years ago the unfortunate British people did not own the Bank of England, but now we own the Bank of England," and ecstatically plough, hoe and drive the tractors across the fields rejoicing in this new-found happiness? That is the test. Will any Member here tell me of one iota of human happiness that has come about during these miserable three years as a result of an individual member of the public knowing that he owns the Bank of England?
  Is there any joy in the hearts of any of us because we own Cable and Wireless? Does it really matter who owns Cable and Wireless? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The important thing is who effectively owns Cable and Wireless. I submit that the common people of this country do not care who owns the Bank
  778
  of England. They were quite satisfied with the ownership of the Bank of England in days gone by, and they are not one whit happier or better off as a result of public ownership. If that is true of the Bank of England, it is true of the Cotton Exchange. Is cotton now any cheaper? Are the patterns and designs of our shirts better as a result of public ownership? I suggest to this second generation of Socialists, this university-bred group of Socialists who have inherited the ideas of their fathers, who have brought the monopolist economics under the label of Socialism, that that world has long since passed them by. This is not a world of that character.
  If it is the intention of the Government, as they assert, to bring us nearer and nearer to a collective State, a State in which there is no personal possession of money or property, then their methods are unquestionably more likely to take us towards Communism than the alternative policy offered by the Opposition. State monopoly in industry will obviously build up a bitter dispute between State control and control by the workers. Hon. Members opposite have not forgotten the dangers of syndicalism and the development of the corporate State under Mussolini. These things are in the minds of all intelligent Socialists. I submit that there is no public demand for nationalisation. The public do not get anything for their money. Why should I be compelled to invest in a business in which I do not believe?
  I am told that the mines were bankrupt. Why should I be compelled as a citizen to put my capital, which I do not want to do, into the mining industry? I am told that the British railways were a very poor bag of assets—I think those were the happy words of the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. If that is so, why should I be compelled now to put my money into the railways? Why should I be a compulsory shareholder in businesses of which I do not approve? Why should the right of investment be taken from me? Why should I, under the leadership of the Government, be compelled to be a shareholder in enterprises which I think could be better managed by the present owners? I suggest that the Government are taking away from me the freedom and liberty which is properly mine.

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  It has been said from the opposite side that the Tory Party accept nationalisation. I do not accept nationalisation. I decline to believe that these Socialists have any point in mind beyond which socialisation shall not go. Socialism is surely a progressive thing, and nationalisation cannot be an end in itself or of itself. The question I pose is this:
  after nationalisation, what? When the Government have completed their programme, when they have socialised the means of production, distribution and exchange, then all I shall have left is a toothbrush and my braces buttons. Is it seriously supposed that this is the policy which should be followed, and that it is in the general interests of the people of this country?
  Does the ordinary citizen like this intensive monopoly? I think not. I think that what the sensible Government which will succeed this Government will do will be to allow me to put my savings in things I believe in, will encourage thrift by telling me that I may have 5 per cent. for the first £1,000 pounds of my savings, and will tell me that I can have a house of my own and not one let to me by permission of the local authority or the Minister of Health. I shall be very proud to give my support to the Amendment.
  8.19 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Foot: The hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling) said at one point that he was disappointed with some of the speeches which have come from this side of the House. I am sure that he was even more disappointed with the speeches which have come from his side. His is the first speech which could be really represented as a speech directed to the Amendment. Most of the other speeches have been of a tepid character and I congratulate the hon. Member for having introduced a note of controversy.
  The first ground on which the hon. Member opposed nationalisation was that if there is a public monopoly the consumer has to take what he is given. That is exactly what happens in the case of the Iron and Steel Federation. The consumer must take what he gets, and sometimes he does not like it very much. Lord Nuffield, for instance, disliked intensely what he was given by the Iron
  780
  and Steel Federation, particularly the price of the steel. The hon. Member opposite wants to go back to the age of Neolithic man. He wants the industry to be broken up into small firms, each competing against the other, so that everything will be fine. But he is out of agreement with the majority of his party. There are only two Members of his party who agree with him—the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) and the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). The hon. Member must think the matter out, and decide whether he should follow the example of the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas) and leave his party because of his obvious disagreement with them in this matter.
  Sir W. Darling: The hon. Gentleman is making such an excellent speech that I am l0th to interrupt, but I should not like it to be devoid of facts. As chairman of a large engineering company, I must tell him that I am not compelled to buy my steel from one particular company. There is actual competition within the industry.
  Mr. Foot: In the past, the consumer of steel has had to take his steel at the price decided by the Federation. The question we want Members opposite to consider is, who shall make the decision as to the price at which steel should be distributed—a private body or a public body?
  The second argument of the hon. Gentleman against nationalisation was that it was absolutely wrong for him to be compelled to put some of his money into businesses into which he did not want his money to go. I think it is absolutely right that he should have some of his money put into businesses into which he does not want it to go. One of the things which was wrong with this country, one of the causes of the legacy with which this Government was left, was that sufficient steps were not taken to compel people like the hon. Gentleman opposite to put their money into businesses where it was most needed. Because of that the country was left with a decadent coal industry, and steel and electrical industries which had not expanded as much as they should have done. We are not prepared to allow the coal, steel and electricity industries to be left in the hands of people like the hon. Member, however much we like his nature and applaud the fashion

  781
  in which he advances views to which the Tory Party have not the courage to subscribe.
  This Debate, apart from the eloquent speech of the hon. Member for South Edinburgh, has been something of a fiasco. It is supposed to be a Vote of Censure on the Government. There are half a dozen of the better looking Members of the party opposite assembled to carry it through, but it has been a most pitiable effort. This was to be a great attack on the monstrous proposal of a Government that was forcing nationalisation down the throats of the people—though there are very few throats opposite at the moment. It is a pity that the Tory Party did not bring some more along. What is instructive is to compare the kind of argument advanced in this Debate with that advanced a year ago.
  The Amendment we are discussing today refers almost entirely to nationalisation. There is hardly any other criticism of the Government in it. A year ago, however, the attack was of a much wider nature. The Amendment then put down by the Opposition said that the Government had failed to show adequate leadership or administrative competence, had revealed no plans for dealing with the economic crisis and, as a result, was to be condemned. No one would deny that steps to deal with the economic crisis which persistently faces this country is one of the most important matters we should discuss. But it is remarkable that in contriving to support a Vote of Censure at this most critical time in the history of this Parliament the Opposition have not mentioned national leadership and administrative competence, as they did a year ago.
  It is perhaps even more instructive to remember what the Opposition said a year ago when attacking the Government. The right hon. Member for Woodford, who moved the Amendment on that occasion—and it is significant that he is not here today to do the same again—said that we were travelling along the wrong road, that in a year or so we should be worse off, that we were being led down a dark tunnel with no hope of daylight at the end of it, that the country's affairs were being paralysed by the Government's efforts and that the main charge against the Government was that they had broken the main-spring of the country's productive system. All
  782
  the lesser lights of the Conservative Party took up the cry. The right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), who was very busy on that occasion but who is not very active on this, said that the export targets which had been outlined by the Chancellor were quite unattainable. He went on to say that many people in the United States believed that we were work shy, that our prestige had sunk to nothing and, in his peroration, added that we were a mendicant nation.
  That is the kind of leadership which has been provided by the Opposition during recent months. They do not turn up to argue these matters out in debate, but are content to make these charges on platforms outside this House. We all know that things have turned out very unfortunately for the Opposition in the past year, and that most of the targets which were described as unattainable have, in the main, been reached. We know that production is considerably greater than before the war. We know that it has increased in this country faster than in any other country in Europe. These facts are known to other people as well, and I think it is shameful that, so far as I am aware, no tribute to these achievements has been paid by the Leader of the Conservative Party. It is also a shameful thing that Mr. Hoffman, an American, should have uttered the facts which the Opposition had not the grace and generosity to admit.
  There was some laughter earlier today during a singularly eloquent peroration by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, when he said he would quote from a paper called "Tribune." The Opposition did not laugh, however, when they heard the quotation because they realised that it was powerful, and that perhaps it was Mr. Hoffman himself who said it. There are plenty more where that came from. There is the statement of Mr. Hoffman himself, and I do not think it can be read too often:
  I am going back to America with the clear impression that the United Kingdom has made remarkable progress. The very gallant and successful effort which Great Britain has put up to build up exports and hold down imports, and achieve financial stability. is one which commands the admiration of the world.
  Yes, it commands the admiration of Mr. Hoffman but not the admiration of the Leader of the Opposition. I think it is

  783
  mean. Mr. Hoffman does not call us a mendicant nation. He has not gone back to America to repeat what was said by the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) that this country is begging. That is not what Mr. Hoffman is saying, but that is what our patriots over here are saying.
  When the right hon. Member for Woodford was in charge of our affairs during the war he was always very severe on any one who criticised him and he always described such critics as crabs. None of the right hon. Gentleman's critics in the war ever showed themselves so crustacean as the right hon. Gentleman himself. Now when he is rapidly descending into his political second childhood it is rather melancholy that of this man, whose name has figured so largely in the history of this country, it has to be said that in the last few years of his life and of his political record every time he opened his mouth he did injury to his country. It is a pitiable fact that the Leader of the Conservative Opposition is not prepared to pay any such tribute as we have had from Mr. Hoffman and from others who have examined the facts. He makes these wild and inaccurate charges——
  Sir W. Darling: Mr. Hoffman was not engaged in political arguments but was justifying the policy to which he has lent his support and for which His Majesty's Government begged him. How could he say anything else?
  Mr. Foot: How could Mr. Hoffman say anything else? Mr. Hoffman is an honest man. He is going back to America as the servant of the American people. He is not going there to put something across on our behalf to the American people, but as a servant of the American people, to persuade them and to tell them of the facts as he has seen them here. The right hon. Member for Woodford has not had the grace or the generosity on one occasion in the past year to pay some tribute to the production achievements of this country. Instead he says that our prestige has sunk to nothing and that the British people ought to be ashamed of what they had done in the past few years. That is in direct contrast to what has been said by those who are trying to reconstruct Europe at this time.
  784
  Let me recall another part of the argument which was used a year ago. The first charge made by the right hon. Member for Woodford was that we had broken the mainspring of our productive system. Not even the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) dares say that today. The second charge made by the right hon. Member for Woodford a year ago—and what he described as the second count against the Government—was that the housing programme had collapsed. Those were the words he used. It is significant again that there is no reference in this Amendment to the housing programme which was supposed to have collapsed a year ago. It is a remarkable thing. The right hon. Member for Southport today did say a few words about the housing programme, but the housing programme has not collapsed.
  In the city of Plymouth, of which I am one of the representatives in this House and which is one of the areas most tragically affected by the shortage of houses, we have built in the last three years more than 5,000 new houses. During the whole of the period during the two wars—the right hon. Member for Southport was very careful to safeguard himself about the period immediately after the 1914–1918 war—in Plymouth something like 11,000 houses were built. We have now built 5,000 houses in three years, so that we are well on the way to doing in three years half of what was done in the whole of the 20 years between the two wars. That has been done while carrying out a large number of repairs as well. And that kind of experience can be repeated in many parts of the country.
  It is disreputable that the Opposition should try to pretend that the housing programme has collapsed when, in fact, we have a better housing record than any other country in the world. Taking into account the fact that my city of Plymouth stands almost at the top of the league in housing—[Interruption.]—I am afraid it is not at the top of the league in other matters—I say that there is no city in the whole world which has a bigger housing record since 1945, in proportion to its population, than has my city. Should we not be proud of that? Or should we go around saying that the housing programme has collapsed and that the figures do not mean anything?

  785
  I remember when the right hon. Member for Woodford was speaking during the war when the soldiers were going into battle. He was making promises to them. He said that Lord Portal at the Ministry of Works was working wonders and was going to produce 500,000 steel houses. Only two of them were ever built. When a Tory Minister produces 500,000 houses on paper, that is working wonders, but when a Labour Minister produces 800,000 houses in fact, we are told that it is a housing programme that has collapsed. That is the kind of patriotism we have had during the past three years from hon. Members opposite.
  Let me take another aspect of this matter. Now that hon. Members opposite find that they have not been able to continue their attack on the Government on the ground that the production campaign has failed, they say: "We must think up something new. We must accuse the Government of taking steps to disrupt the harmony of effort that has been continuing in this country and the solid alliance between Opposition and Government in pursuit of it. They come down and say that they are deeply shocked—almost as shocked as the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas) was—that we should have brought in the Parliament Bill and the Steel Bill at the present time. I have not seen much of this eager enthusiasm among Members of the Conservative Party to support the austerity drive of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have not seen them working hard in support of those proposals. I do not know what facts there are to justify this picture of a Conservative Party tireless, selfless and diligent. They must have been almost subterranean in their working on behalf of national recovery. I do not know where that picture comes from. I recall the phrase used by Junius; it applies to the Opposition: They have done good by stealth. The rest is on record.
  There is hardly one Measure which this Government have taken during the past 12 months to assist the recovery of this nation which has not been opposed by hon. Members opposite. A year ago, the right hon. Member for Woodford was standing in his place over there denouncing the whole export programme of the Government and saying that we had done it in the wrong way altogether. No measure for the limitation of imports
  786
  which has assisted us so powerfully in bringing about the improved situation which we are in today, have hon. Members opposite had the courage to vote for in the Lobby. Instead of that, they have tried to work up a little popularity on the basis of denouncing certain limitations of imports.
  This is the party which claims in someway or other that national leadership has been broken up. I do not believe we can ever have national leadership with people who only represent a small clique but if we ever were to think of that, I think we could at least demand that they should vote for at any rate one or two unpopular measures which they felt might conceivably lose them votes. If they did, some people might be prepared to consider national unity with them, though I would not. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about conscription?"] That was not an unpopular measure. If it was, we have shared the unpopularity. I am talking about petrol, newsprint, timber, food and bread rationing where we have taken measures which are unpopular and difficult. Some hon. Members opposite know the reasons for these measures but they have not had the courage to come forward and support one of them.
  Today the hon. Member for Hornsey, who knows better, talks as if there is no balance of payments crisis. He says that the troubles the nation has to face are due to wasteful expenditure and Socialist administration. He knows quite well that the country has been facing an economic crisis which has been arising for years past. His statement that capitalism in the years before the war enabled us to pay our way is not even true. The balance of payments problem was already arising in the years before the war, and the hon. Member knows it very well. Yet he will try to make as much publicity out of it as he can. He has said that he will sling as much mud at every Minister that he can and tell all the silly tales which Lord Woolton dishes up for the Housewives' League and then say that the Tories have a long-term plan. He is prepared to fight the General Election on that basis. As I listened to his speech and other speeches by the Opposition, I could not help being reminded of the statement by Disraeli that the Conservative Party was the first association of public men who came together for an avowed end without enunciating a single principle.

  787
  The other comic part about this charge of breaking up national unity is that this is exactly the same charge that was made a year ago. We are now told that it is the Steel Bill which will cause all the disunity and disharmony, but a year ago it was the Gas Bill. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) got up in the House a year ago and said that the Gas Bill would distract the nation from its purpose. The Parliament Bill was going to do the same. What I said at the time was right. The miners have not gone on strike because the Lords are to lose a year of their veto power. The electrical workers and the mill girls have not come out in sympathy with the battle of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) on the Gas Committee. Most significantly, the steel workers have continued to work hard and produce more steel with this black cloud of nationalisation hanging over them. It was announced a year ago that we were to nationalise steel. All those prophecies of the Opposition have not been fulfilled.
  The most remarkable thing about this year as compared with a year ago is that nearly all the hopes of the Government, brave and optimistic though many of them were, have been fulfilled, and all the prophecies of the Opposition have been rendered void and made to appear ridiculous.
  The fact is that the Government have kept faith with the working people of the country, and that is the most powerful fact which has contributed to the production drive. If the Government had adopted the advice which was given to it by the Opposition during past years and the past year in particular we should not have been able to report the increased production figures that have been achieved. If the Government had cut the food subsidies, as they were advised to by hon. Gentlemen opposite, and if they had slashed the housing programme as they were advised to do by Lord Woolton, and if they had cut to ribbons the capital investment programme, as they were advised to do by a lot of harebrained economists in Oxford, and if they had refused to go forward with the National Health Act despite the fact that some of the doctors and the Tory Party did not like it, and if they had taken
  788
  all those measures advised by hon. Gentlemen opposite, then we would today have been in the situation which the right hon. Gentleman forecast 12 months ago.
  And if that had happened, then the right hon. Member for Woodford would have been able to go off to Llandudno as happy as a king, able to make his speech and to join in the chorus of singing that fine old song, "Ain't it grand to be blooming well dead." Instead of that, the right hon. Member for Woodford had to tear up his speech on domestic politics altogether—or almost altogether. He went up to Llandudno and decided to talk on another subject, and in order to show that we have something great to offer in this country, he offered the world the atom bomb which we do not happen to possess.
  The circumstances changed somewhat when the Debate took place in the House because it was quite evident that most of the speakers on that side of the House did not agree with his Llandudno speech. In order to change the tone of it, and to elevate the general atmosphere, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) was put up as the first speaker on the opposite side. And what did he say? He did not mention atom bombs from the beginning to the end of his speech. He said what we wanted was a Christian Renaissance and some others have suggested it as well. I do not profess to be a very good Christian, but I must say that if this is to be the Crusade which they are advising for this country, that we should go forward and present ourselves in Europe as a great Power, with a Bible in one hand and an atom bomb in the other, I do not think that that is the way in which this country will ever establish its reputation throughout the world.
  We must maintain our defences, we must protect ourselves, but everyone knows that there is an even more subtle and complicated and difficult task to be discharged if the onrush of Communism is to be resisted and rolled back, and that is that we must have something better to offer. And we say that here in this country we have something better to offer, and we shall only have something better to offer so long as we continue to reject the advice which has been offered by the right hon. Member for

  789
  Woodford and his friends. It may be very difficult for them to understand that their philosophy is totally irrelevant to the problems of Europe today. Most of the friends of the hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House in Europe—most, I do not say all by any means, there were honourable exceptions—but most of the friends of hon. Gentlemen organised in parties destroyed themselves in Europe before the war because they were allied with the Nazis and with Mussolini. They destroyed themselves. They wiped themselves out as an important political factor, and the real argument in Europe is the argument as to whether the world is to be re-established and a new society is to be built upon democratic and free and Socialist lines, or whether it is to be rebuilt on tyrannical lines.
  That is the real choice in Europe, and if one goes into Europe one can see that is the battle that is being fought out today, and that is the battle in which we say that Britain is the leader. It is a task which accords with all the finest traditions of this country.
  8.49 p.m.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: During the short time that I have been a Member of this House I have on a number of occasions observed that there is a considerable difference between attacking the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) when he is in his place and when he is not.
  Major BruceHe is never there
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I notice that the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) delivered a very scathing attack upon the right hon. Member for Woodford when he was not in his place. [An HON. MEMBER: "And others."] He sneered at the sincerity and the patriotism of some of the speeches which the right hon. Gentleman has delivered during the life of the present Parliament. The hon. Member can say what he likes, but I have a shrewd suspicion that the most recent speech of the right hon. Member for Woodford and the sentiments which it contained will live in history a good deal longer than all the speeches which the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) has ever made.
  Mr. James Hudson: The hon. Member should not be so sure.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The hon. Member for Devonport still seems to persist in the curious illusion that the way to build up a bulwark against Communism is by a Socialist democracy, as I think he calls it. In other words, what we must do to protect ourselves against Communism is to go as far to the Left as we think it is safe to go If he would look at the story of Czechoslovakia, of Poland, of Bulgaria and of other countries, he would see that Communists did not get into power over the extreme Right—they got into power on the backs of the Left Wing of the Socialist parties.
  In these grave times the legislative programme outlined in the Gracious Speech should be judged on two grounds: the impact of the legislation upon our national economy, and the impact upon the outside world. Does it speed up production or does it retard it? Does it promote efficiency or does it impair it? Does it create the impression to the outside world, to friend and foe alike, that we here are seized with a sense of urgency and of realism against the very sombre international background? To us on these benches, at least, the contents of the Gracious Speech fulfil neither of these two requirements. Even taking into consideration the doctrinal obsession of hon. Gentlemen opposite for nationalisation, one might have expected that the most ardent and starry-eyed idealist would occasionally, on grounds of commonsense, call a halt and look back on the road over which he had travelled, and discover whether or not any progress had been made. We know full well that the administration of those industries already nationalised has created very great problems—problems for the most part unexpected, unthought of and, hitherto, entirely unsolved. But none of those problems, in my view, compares to the magnitude of the problems that will be created once the iron and steel industry is nationalised.
  The consumer in this country is a patient beast and his shoulders are already aching, but I doubt very much if the full burden has yet fallen upon him. I doubt very much whether the price of coal, gas or electricity has yet reached its ceiling. It is no use trying to deceive the consumer with the rather facile argument that, because 80 per cent of the industries of the country are still in pri-

  791
  vate hands, 80 per cent. of the consumer's troubles are due to private enterprise. I suppose that, shortly before the General Election, the argument will be put forward that, if by that time we have not substantially reduced the deficit in our balance of payments, 80 per cent. of the blame can be laid at the door of the non nationalised industries. I wonder, however, whether any hon. Member can tell me of any business, large or small, which does not depend for its efficient running upon an adequate and reasonably cheap supply of electricity, coal, steel, gas and good transport facilities? The fact is that the noose is drawn pretty tight around the neck of our non-nationalised industries.
  But if the consumer here in England is a patient beast, the purchaser of British goods overseas is less patient, because his choice is not limited to the product of any State monopoly. If British goods are too expensive, he buys his goods from another country and we in this country feel the effects of the loss of the market and the custom going elsewhere. This is true above all in the motor industry. I believe 50 per cent. of the cost of producing a motor car depends on the price of steel. The motor industry has been making very great progress during the past three years. Ministers of the Crown have on a number of occasions, quite rightly, paid tribute to the enterprise and efficiency of that industry in capturing so large a portion of the export trade and earning so many dollars. But, if the price of steel is to follow the example of coal, electricity and gas, it seems extremely unlikely that the motor industry will be quite so successful in the export market as it has been hitherto. I should have thought the time had come when even the Socialist Party should demand from the already nationalised industries and swollen Government Departments the same standards of efficiency and economy which they so continually demand of private enterprise.
  Another trouble with hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite is that any sort of slogan has some kind of magnetic attraction for them. They do not stop to think what a slogan means. For instance, to us on these benches the operative part of the slogan equality is quality. The problem of our generation is how to level up, not to level down. Any
  792
  fool can level down; any fool can proceed at the pace of the slowest in the race. I have often felt that British industry is invited to recover from all its wartime troubles at the pace at which the slowest Government official can deal with the top file in the "in" tray and transfer the file to "pending." This is the most jaundiced interpretation of Equality.
  The reason why our commercial reputation is so high in the world is because a particular quality is associated with a particular commodity produced by a particular firm. Hitherto I have always understood that one of the main arguments of hon. Members opposite in favour of nationalisation was that the products of a nationalised industry were so much better because the whole set-up was so much more efficient than that of the non-nationalised industry. The Government themselves seem to have demolished those arguments at one sweep by allowing certain of the iron and steel firms to retain their names. In other words, the Government are attempting to cash in on the reputation made by private firms in the bad old days of Tory misrule when it was not considered to be the greatest crime one could commit to be successful in any commercial enterprise.
  Turning to the impact of the King's Speech on the world outside; our recovery is not merely of vital importance to us in this country, but it is of vital importance to Western civilisation. We can play no effective part in the Atlantic Pact and make no effective contribution to any joint re-armament programme unless our economy is conducted on lines sound enough to enable us to carry the burden. We cannot complain that certain of the Scandinavian countries still cling to a rather forlorn belief in neutrality, or that other countries may be wavering a bit and demanding some physical guarantee of whether or not we in this country are capable of translating words into action.
  Even the actions of the United States of America it Europe depend very largely upon European response, and in that European response we in this country must play the major part. How much time will the Minister of Supply have to devote to the necessary
  re-armament programme in the present Session of Parliament? What sort of effect upon the potential recruit for the Territorial Army

  793
  will be created by the spectacle of the Minister of Supply conducting a Bill for the nationalisation of iron and steel through all its stages in this House? Will Marshal Stalin be very impressed? I should guess that he will be chuckling. [An HON. MEMBER: "Does it matter?"] I think it does because half the basis of rearmament depends upon coal and the key man in that key industry is a Communist. The other half of rearmament depends upon steel, and steel is to be nationalised.
  I doubt if ever there was a time when real leadership and unity were more needed and when efficiency ought to be regarded as the sole criterion of any action. Yet hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, instead of leading, have allowed themselves to be driven on by the extremists in their own party. Instead of uniting they have preferred to divide. One cannot sow without reaping, and one day the wild oats will be harvested.
  9.2 p.m.
  Sir Richard Acland: At one moment in his speech I thought that the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Mott-Radclyffe) was about to develop some argument relating to the international situation. He did not do so, however. It has surprised me that throughout the Debate, to which I have listened rather carefully, not one word has been addressed from the Opposition benches to the international situation, which features so largely in the preamble to the Amendment which has been moved. I should like to say something about it because it seems to me that over and above all the domestic arguments for the nationalisation of steel, the world situation is one which makes it overwhelmingly important that this Government should obstinately persist in the policy to which it has set itself.
  I shall ask hon. Members opposite to look again at the world situation in the hope that they will perhaps take a new view of it. It might be as well therefore if I begin by making a confession of a fairly serious error of my own. Believing as I do in the need for a world-wide social revolution, I confess that I had hoped, and perhaps because I had hoped I believed, that the leaders in the Kremlin would be persuaded to see the wisdom or at least the expediency of
  794
  allowing, perhaps encouraging, the worldwide social revolution to take place in different parts of the world at different times, according to the very different traditions and different circumstances of different peoples. It seems that I was mistaken. I paid too little attention to such words as one finds in "Problems of Leninism":
  In order that the fight against social democracy may be carried on successfully attention must be concentrated on fighting the so-called left wing of social democracy. It is obvious that unless the left social democrats are smashed it will be impossible to overcome social democracy as a whole.
  I hope that Lord Woolton, his advisers and colleagues will appreciate their position as collaborators and fellow travellers of the leaders of the Kremlin in that both desire and intend to smash left wing social democracy. In case that confession should seem to put me in the same class as political morons who speak of Communism and Fascist being the same, I would ask how, if that was so, would one explain the fact that the Parliamentary Tory Party, from 1933 to 1938, never disliked Nazism as such. The difference, of course, is that Communism makes contact with the world-wide social revolution which is going on; harnesses it and uses it and in its ruthless way drives it forward. The Nazis made contact with it, and in perhaps a rather similar way did their utmost to hold it back.
  The policy which we pursue needs to be regarded in the light of what we think is happening in the whole wide world. It seems to me that in these days there is a world-wide protest against the inequalities and against the ungovernable, cataclysmic forces which sweep across the world from time to time at irregular and unpredictable intervals as a result of the development of individualism and privately-owned big business in the last hundred years or more. The protest against these inequalities takes on in these days a new urgency, because until the quite recent invention of power-driven machinery man knew quite clearly that the overwhelming majority of ordinary people were bound to live in grinding labour and grinding poverty. Power-driven machinery in the last hundred years or so has poured out extraordinary wealth and comfort mainly upon the middle-class folk, in the nations of Western Europe and America whose comfort has been sustained upon

  795
  the toil of manual workers who, in Western Europe, received no fair share of the wealth that was produced, and in Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia, received no share at all.
  Not only is the protest against these inequalities, which I regard as being daemonic and wholly unmanageable; but also it is a protest against the ungovernable forces which devastate the industrial world from time to time when it is left to the tender mercies of privately directed big business. The great tragedy of Jarrow, for example, is not that it was murdered by the of individual business leaders. The tragedy is far greater. It is that it was murdered because the industrial leaders were in the grip of forces which they could not understand and which they had no knowledge of how to control. It is against these inequalities and these ungovernable forces that a world-wide revolt is stirring from end to end on this earth. The fact that we should never allow ourselves to forget is that Communism makes contact with this world-wide revolt and harnesses it to its own purposes.
  I was interested last week, in the early stages of this Debate, when the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis), seemed at times to be aware of this great worldwide challenge of our time and said that we cannot meet ideas except with ideas. I thought that that was a word of enlightenment coming from the benches opposite, and I listened with interest to see what he would say next. I am sorry he is not here now, because I could not help smiling when he mentioned the Industrial Charter as the great idea with which the Opposition would meet the great challenge of our time. I should like to tell the Opposition something about their Industrial Charter which was adopted at their party conference in September of last year. I think that the whole conference voted for it with two exceptions.
  Five or six weeks after that, there started a by-election which I am told in the Press was regarded as of crucial importance. Both sides threw in all their material and ideological resources, and even Lord Woolton himself went down to see that everything was in really good order. The Industrial Charter was never mentioned from beginning to end in my opponent's election address. The docu-
  796
  ment itself was not on sale anywhere throughout the length and breadth of the keenly-contested constituency; and I do not recollect that the Industrial Charter was mentioned once by any Conservative speaker who came down to address the electorate. I submit to the party opposite that if official Conservative ideas made so little impact upon the official Conservative mind, they are very unlikely to make much of a dent on Joseph Stalin.
  A new phrase has recently been discovered or rediscovered by hon. Members opposite called, "The property owning democracy." That is a phrase which I would entirely understand, and I might even think that there were arguments in its support, if we were going to apply it to a peasant community interspersed with tiny rural workshops each employing 10 workers or less. In such a community, the phrase "property owning democracy" would have a clear and intelligible meaning. But I ask the Opposition party to be so good as to illustrate this phrase of a "property owning democracy" in relation to a factory employing 500 workers or upwards. Does it mean that when a particular worker goes in to start work on Monday, he says to his mate, "This piston here belongs to me, and the crankshaft over there belongs to Bill," because if property owning democracy does not mean that in relation to a big factory, what meaning does it have? It would be interesting if we could be told.
  The truth of the matter is that the 19 years' record of the Conservative Governments between the wars, taken in conjunction with the policies and suggestions which they have made in the last three years, fully confirms the policy declaration of the leaders of the party, principal among them the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), particularly in the speech which he made, almost exactly a year ago, which launched the well-known slogans about "Setting the people free" and "Letting the best man win." That speech was beautifully summed up by the Leader of the House immediately afterwards in the presence of, and without objection from, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. He said:
  He believes that if free and unfettered competition goes ahead, and if the private profit motive is allowed full play somehow

  797
  or other all will come well."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th October, 1947; Vol. 443, c. 720.]
  That sentence perfectly expresses the lodestar of Conservative philosophy, Conservative policy and Conservative hope and intention; but, unfortunately, that is the policy and the philosophy which have created the inequalities and the forces against which there is today a world-wide revolt stirring amongst the peoples of every land.
  It is no use to try to contend against the social challenge of our times under the very philosophy and the very policy from which this social challenge has been created. I believe that if the Conservative Party were in power they would find themselves today completely barren of any policy, any philosophy or any plan which could in any way match up with the challenge of our times, except of course the one already referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Devon-port (Mr. Foot)—the plan of going to the Americans and persuading them, or encouraging them to drop the atom bomb now. Although I am only a back bench Member, I rejoice to be able to say that that is not the policy of His Majesty's Government. I do not know—and I should be interested to know—whether any hon. Member opposite except the leader of the party would be prepared to say that it is a policy of which he approves.
  By contrast the Labour Party and the Labour Government have a plan, and a policy, and a philosophy. This policy was not patched up ad hoc to meet the particular international emergency in which we find ourselves. It has emerged out of 50 years and more of the social struggles of the British people. This policy is to show in our own country, and in such other countries as we can influence by our example, by our encouragement, and even perhaps sometimes by our material aid, that the objectives of the world-wide social revolution can be obtained by democratic means, and to show that the daemonic inequalities and the forces set up by individualism and by big business can be abolished, tamed and controlled by Governments which pay respect to the well-being and to the individual worth of the ordinary citizens and allow them full liberty to hear and say, to believe and
  798
  to read what they like, and to criticise and to try to alter whatever they do not like. That is a policy which at least matches up to the magnitude of the challenge which is being brought against us.
  But let us not deceive ourselves, and let us not deceive others, into supposing that this policy is anything so small and petty as a mere attempt to adopt a few devices which will enable the old kind of Britain to be run a little bit more efficiently by the same kind of people and the same kind of philosophy which mismanaged it in the years between the wars. We have faith to act patiently by democratic methods; but do not let that disguise the fact that it is our deliberate intention to bring into being a different kind of Britain run by a different philosophy, and by men who respond to different kinds of stimulii and who judge their results on different kind of criteria.
  I do not know whether we shall succeed in this policy and in this plan against the resolute hostility which is directed against it from Conservative and from Communist central offices. I do not know whether we shall succeed. The task is immensely difficult. We know perfectly well that we do not always succeed immediately in finding right solutions to the many detailed problems that are brought up. And in so far as one or two hon. Members opposite during this Debate have made thoughtful and constructive speeches—not quite in the atmosphere, I thought, of a vote of censure Debate, but still speeches which I appreciated none the less—if only they could accept the general plan and purpose we put before this country, which would involve, of course, repudiating the policy poured out from their central office, they would find many of us on this side only too willing to meet and discuss with them the means by which, for example, we could introduce into the socialised industries the same kind of decentralisation which General Eisenhower introduced into the American Army, which was certainly not run for private profit. I should have thought that there could be a profitable exploration as to how these methods could be adopted.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Is the hon. Member suggesting that only Socialists in future should be put in charge of the management of nationalised industries?
  Sir R. Acland: I do not think any words of mine could be taken as meaning that. What I meant to convey was this. When we hear criticisms from hon. Members opposite, we could listen to them and take account of them, and we could discuss with hon. Members the practical possibilities of making all manner of improvements, if we felt that they accepted the general principle of reconciling social justice with individual liberty. When we hear criticism from them, knowing that they are intended to turn the whole nation back from any attempt to plan social justice, to turn us back to the philosophy of everyone out for his own self-interest, it is much harder to give serious consideration to anything they say. I am sorry I have been led into that digression, when I was dealing with the difficulties we encounter in carrying out this policy.
  We have to carry with us many middle-class folk, particularly the highly qualified technicians and managers in industry, who would probably be much happier if no world forces had come along to disturb things as they were in the days of Edward VII. We have to carry them with us. It may seem attractive and even seductive to listen to the advice offered from the other side in regard to soft-pedalling our plans, that we should go slow a little bit and not break new ground until we have concentrated our attention for a little while on detailed practical problems. But the conclusive reason why this party must reject advice of that kind, is that there are other people whose sympathy and loyalty we must retain as well as the technicians and managers of industry.
  We have to retain the loyalty and try to promote the enthusiasm of millions of men and women who are manual workers in our big industries and in agriculture. We have to remember that whenever we appeal for increased production for the sake of national survival we are appealing, more than to anyone else, to the men and women who put on corduroys and overalls and work, with dirty hands, in our factories and fields. I know there are exceptions, but the general rule is that the people in corduroys and overalls, and their families, are pressed much more closely up against real material want than are tens of thousands of us whose contribution to national survival is much less obvious than theirs. I am sure that that
  800
  fact is very much in the minds of the many people who are working in our factories and fields.
  The right hon. Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale) complained the other day about the number of unofficial strikes. He knows quite well that there have been fewer days lost by industrial disturbance in each of the last three years than in almost any other year of peace. Considering that there has been full employment the demands made by organised labour have been astonishingly modest. Why? The industrial peace of our country, and the steady application to the job in hand, is largely due to the fact that those in corduroys and overalls believe that this Government is not what Stalin says it is: Ministers are not the dupes and "stooges" of big business, trying to perpetuate, by craft, the old philosophy and the old way of life, which had its evil effect on our people in the years between the wars. Far above all the technical reasons for persisting in our policy, as declared at the last election, is that there would be no semblance of national unity and effort if that belief in the integrity and purpose of this Government were to be destroyed.
  In conclusion, I will say that I have been wrong on a good many things in the past, but that sometimes I have been right. For instance, I was the only Member who dared to suggest that the Arab armies would not be a match for the people of Israel——
  Mr.Cocks: I did, too.
  Sir R. Acland: I do not know whether my hon. Friend was before or after me in point of time, but be that as it may I hope the House will listen while I offer a word of warning: today, this country is in deadly peril. A Conservative victory at the next election would, I earnestly believe, reduce our country, in a few years, to a state of industrial, social and economic shambles not very different from what we now see in France, where they have no policy which can match the present world challenge.
  In trying to pursue the policy to which the Labour Party has put its hand it seems to me possible and in many ways probable that we shall find ourselves quite shortly almost alone in the world with only perhaps a few small countries of Western Europe and our friends

  801
  within our own Commonwealth. I believe we shall find ourselves in the position of having to sustain what may well be called a "political Tobruk" and from that kind of position we shall need to uphold our belief in the possibility of reconciling planned social justice and individual freedom. It will require real heroism on our part if we are to do it. I suppose I shall enjoy physically the increased allocations of sugar and of fats that have been made to us in the last day or two. I rather wish that the Minister of Food had not found himself obliged to make these allocations, because I believe it is possible and even probable that not very long from now we shall need these fats and this sugar a good deal more than we do today.
  9.31 p.m.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: The final phrase of the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) is a strong condemnation of the Government which he claims to support. It was most depressing to hear him condemn the Minister of Food for giving us some small additions to our meagrerations, because he fears that worse will come. If he believes that this Government are going to lead us into a worse position than that in which we are at the present time, I am very sorry for him. Perhaps he will cheer up just a little bit, and he will be able to make up his mind on the question of resisting the Amendment which we have on the Order Paper, about which I do not think he was quite clear, and on the next occasion when we have the pleasure of listening to him he will see the daylight. If he looks at the daylight he will find that it more likely resides on this side of the House, on which the sun shines, rather than on the other side of the House.
  Sir R. Acland Sir R. Acland rose——
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I must apologise to the hon. Member for having got under his skin, which I thought was a great deal tougher than it has proved to be.
  Sir R. Acland: The hon. Gentleman's remarks are a distortion of what I said and he will not give way.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I was very impressed by the general theme of his speech, which appeared to me to be that the only form of democratic life which was possible in
  802
  this country was under a Socialist dictatorship, and that that dictatorship could only be performed and carried out efficiently by approved Socialists all down the line of management in industry. I asked him whether he meant that and he gave me an answer which I do not think he understood himself. It took some time for him to deliver it and he will agree with me that its meaning was not very clear. I, therefore, must read into it what I believe is the common argument used by many who are proud to call themselves Socialists both inside and outside the House. Their argument rests on the basis that we can only get freedom in industry when industry is socialised—or so they believe—and we can only have a socialised or nationalised industry if everybody in the responsible positions within that industry are themselves Socialists.
  The hon. Member for Gravesend and other hon. Members have talked in scathing terms—and quite rightly so—of the Nazi doctrine practised before the war, where the Nazis only existed after crushing opposition of all kinds. If any industry in this country is eventually to be completely nationalised—and that is the aim of many hon. Members opposite—they can only be run efficiently if everybody responsible is a Socialist. Does not that imply that no one will be allowed to exist in this country in any form of life except a Socialist, and that that is the final aim of nationalisation if carried out?
  I should like to touch on some of the arguments which appear to dominate the Debate on the Amendment which we are supposed to be discussing this evening. It seems to me that hon. Members opposite take it for granted that because in 1945 a Socialist manifesto promised a programme of nationalization, that programme has got to be carried out and completed before 1950 at the very latest. It does not matter very much whether conditions are changed in the world or in this country. That programme has to go on at a rate which will allow its completion before 1950. That is the first fallacy held by hon. Members opposite and it was clearly stated by the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth) when he said that they had promised those things in 1945 and that they would be considered cads if they did not perform them. That was the gist of his argument.
  Mr. Haworth: Perhaps the hon. Member will remember that I also said that it was up to the Opposition to prove that circumstances had changed since that promise was made and that it was not capable of fulfilment now.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I agree with the hon. Member and I am just coming to that point. I hope that he will equally agree that I am not misrepresenting him when I say he said: "We went to the country in 1945 and said we were going to nationalise everything from A to M, and we are going to do it, whatever the conditions are, in order to redeem that promise." That is what he said. Suppose somebody engaged a doctor—which may be rather difficult under the new legislation, but suppose one could find an independent doctor—and that doctor prescribed a dosage for him as suffering from a certain indisposition. Suppose the doctor insisted upon prescribing the same dosage at the same rate, whatever the state of health of the man might be. A doctor who applied that kind of remedy would be very soon written off the book altogether. I believe that is the mistake of hon. Members opposite; I believe it to be fallacious for them to say that whatever happens they must go on with their programme. That is just as dangerous as a doctor entirely ignoring the conditions under which a patient lives and continuing to prescribe——
  Dr. Morgan: The hon. Member had better keep off medicine. He does not know anything about it.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I apologise to the hon. Member. I am speaking as a patient. I may know very little about these matters from the doctor's point of view but I know a great deal about them as a patient as I have suffered under many doctors. The hon. Member who challenged me asked, as the second part of his argument, whether we could prove that sufficient changes had taken place to admit of the programme being slowed down, deferred, or cancelled altogether. I ask whether it is right, and whether it is commonsense, that such a question should be put in the House of Commons at this stage of our history. Has no change taken place since 1945? Will any hon. Member say that no fundamental changes have taken place in the world position or in our own economic position in relation to other
  804
  countries, and would he insist upon that? Of course, no hon. Member could do so. Not one honest Member of this House could make that assertion, and as we are all honest I say that no one could do so.
  Take two examples. When that programme was enunciated in 1945, could it be foretold that the international situation would deteriorate to the level it has reached now? When hon. Members opposite submitted themselves to their electors they were far more optimistic than we were. I remember the arguments that were used at that time. They were that the Socialist Party were far more likely to get to terms with Russia than the Tory Party. The argument was put over and over again. I am not blaming them entirely for the difficulties which have arisen between this country and Russia.
  Mr. Shurmer: The hon. Member must blame his leader.
  Mr. On-Ewing: The Leader of the Opposition is not the Prime Minister of this country. If he were, conditions would be very much better. We are all agreed that there has been a grave and fundamental change in the whole of the international situation as regards our international relations. That means that we must see that our defences are brought up to strength again. They have been allowed to deteriorate to such a low level because of the concentration of the activity of the Government in other directions. If our defences are to be raised to a sound level, we must be assured of supplies of the right sort of steel at the right time at a reasonable cost if the country is not to be mulcted unnecessarily and if the rebuilding of our defences is not to be delayed. Does the hon. Member for Walton agree that this has brought about a fundamental difference in our approach to the question of the nationalisation of the iron and steel industry?
  Mr. Haworth: It has fundamentally altered the position and made the necessity for the nationalisation of steel all the greater.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: We can go on using that argument but it will not lead us far. When I see an industry which is producing what we want in the way we want

  805
  it at a reasonable price controlled by the Government at a time when we want it, I say that we should not disturb that industry at a vitally important moment when the disturbance may affect the rebuilding of our defences.
  Let us take another instance. Was the country warned at the time of the General Election in 1945 that our economic position would be as difficult as it is now? Was the country warned that the dollar picture would be such as has developed over the last three years? Of Course, it was not.—[HON. MEMBERS: "It was."]—I remember very well the optimistic speeches made by the leaders of the Socialist Party about what was going to happen. What I would politely term "the steadier speakers" on the air representing the Labour Party said that we should have to fight hard to win hack our position as the leading industrial nation of the world, but nobody suggested anything like the picture which has developed in relation to our dollar position. At the General Election the dollar picture was never put before the country. Does not that prove that a fundamental change has taken place since the Socialist promises were made in 1945?
  Mr. Stokes: Is it not a fact that when Lend-Lease was first instituted it was intended that it should go on until the end of the war and not until the cessation of hostilities? Can the hon. Member tell the House how any living man could possibly have foretold to any of his constituents what was going to happen as a result of the sudden truncation of
  Lend-Lease?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am not suggesting that. All I was saying was that the picture was painted very optimistically in 1945. At that time it was recognised by everybody who knew anything about it at all that some form of American loan would be absolutely essential. Of course, it was recognised. It was known perfectly well that with the end of Lend-Lease some form of American loan would be essential, but nobody knew about the way the party opposite would squander that loan when we got it. Nobody knew that they would not use that loan to re-equip our industries.
  Mr. Stokes: What did the Tory Party do over the loan?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I would say even on the steel issue alone that if we now had the wasted dollars we should most certainly be able to import some steel from the United States.
  Mr. Stokes: They smashed up German industry.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I will remind the House of a third change which has taken place since 1945. It has been admitted by several hon. Members opposite that as a result of our experience of nationalisation no solution has yet been found to the problem as to where the worker in industry fits into a vast monopoly. That has been admitted by the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) and the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. Diamond). Surely the fact that, after the experience we have already gained in nationalised industry, still that solution has not been found should give pause to the Government before they persist in extending the field of nationalisation? Does not that give them anything to think about?
  We all know the grave difficulties which have arisen in one industry after another since it has come within the iron box of nationalisation—the claim by the worker within the industry that he is not being fully represented; the claim that he was told he would be part-owner; the claim that he was told that he would take a larger share in management; the consequent frictions and ill-feelings; the strikes and threats of strikes that have arisen because of promises that have been wildly hurled for years by hon. Members sitting opposite now that once the industry was nationalised the works would be owned and controlled by the workers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Never."] Hon. Members opposite cannot deny speeches other than their own, and it is perfectly well known to many of us that promises of that nature were made for many years. If they had not been made, if people had not been misled along those lines, why has it been found necessary for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to put his foot down and to say that in his opinion the workers in industry are not yet capable of managing it? Why was it necessary?
  Mr. Ellis Smith: We all have a lot to learn
  Mr. Stokes: To go back to the point about unrest among workers, will the hon. Member tell the House the comparative figures of the millions of days wasted after the Great War under Tory or semi-Tory administration and the comparative absence of wasted days on strikes since the termination of hostilities after the last war?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: No, I cannot give those figures and I do not think that point is relevant to what I am saying. I am not saying that as a result of nationalisation there has been an extension of strikes, but I say there has been a growth of friction in those industries which was not foreseen by those who have always put forward nationalisation. Again I quote the hon. Member opposite when he made an admission of grave disappointment—I admire him for making it. I shall not misinterpret his words—that he had believed—and he was speaking the truth, a truth which applies to many hon. Members opposite and I wish they would give voice to it— he had believed that those engaged in industry would work better for the State in nationalised industries than they would for the private employer. He admitted that his belief has been falsified and that he had been wrong. Is that challenged?
  We all know the grave disappointment amongst those who genuinely believed in nationalisation at the actual output, the actual keenness, the actual drive which has been shown by those engaged in those industries. That urge, greater efficiency, more work, which it was always thought would appear under nationalisation, has not appeared. That, again, provides a change that was not foreseen in 1945, when these nationalisation promises were made; that, again, should give food for thought to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and should delay them, rather than accelerate them, when thinking of extending their policy of nationalisation.
  I want to speak about another argument used by the hon. Member for Blackley (Mr. Diamond) in refuting the terms of this Amendment. He claimed that nationalisation must go on because it is the only means of democratising industry in a democracy. If that is the aim of the Government in putting forward further schemes of nationalisation, then there is nothing in the history of their
  808
  actions—in the structure of those industries now nationalised—which would lead one to believe that they are getting any nearer to democratising an industry.
  I can hardly believe that proof of greater democracy in industry can be found in the dismissal of miners or workers in any nationalised industry—not just from one pit, one gas works or one electricity generating plant—and by denying them the right to re-engagement in the industry in which their lives have been formed, by denying them the right to continue to work in that industry Is that democracy, or freedom, or the liberty of the worker?
  I think the argument is completely destroyed that only within a nationalised industry can we have a really democratised industry. The democratisation, if that is what we are to call it, resides, in fact, only in the false name given to it of the socialisation or nationalisation of industry. If we frankly call these nationalisation schemes the building up of even greater monopolies than this country has ever known before, and do not go beyond that, there would be no great talk of the democratisation of industry; and that description would be a far fairer one than any other such as socialisation or nationalisation.
  The squeezing out of other legislation by this extended programme of nationalisation is an evil thing for the people of this country. So many other matters are still awaiting, and should receive attention rather than that the Government should be concerned themselves so much with nationalisation. Defence, housing and the reconsideration of the whole question of the law of rents and rent restriction, to bring about greater freedom and greater fairness to tenant and landlord alike, are the kind of problems which should have occupied the minds of the Government.
  Even more serious is the blow which has been struck at the whole system of the standards of morality and of life in this country by an attempt to iron out standards over vast fields of employment and enterprise, all within the strait-jacket of direction from the centre. It is said that our standards of morality and honesty in this country are sinking rapidly. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members opposite agree? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I believe it

  809
  to be true, and that one of the reasons why it is true is that, under the systems of government and of life followed by hon. Members opposite, it is beginning to be realised that the openings and the opportunities of better life available for the mass of the people will be fewer rather than greater. I believe there is deep disappointment, a deep sense that people have been mislead, and that is the reason why many who, until recent months, would never have considered themselves attracted in any way to the Communist Party are now beginning to flirt with it.
  That is also the reason why many hundreds of thousands who for years have said to themselves, to their fathers, sons and wives that they would not vote Tory, are thinking of the Tory policy today to a greater degree than ever before. However many times people jeer at the Conservative Industrial Charter, for instance, they realise that we do believe in consultation with the man on the spot and that nationalised industries do not. Because they understand that, they are beginning to understand that the cause of great bitterness in all industry and big enterprise is that the man at the bottom does not count at all. We mean to make him count, but if the Socialists continue with nationalisation they will make the man who is not at the top mean less and less and the man at the top can only, finally, mean one man and he will be a dictator.
  9.57 p.m.
  Mr. Peart: There are but a few minutes before the end of a rather long day's Debate, but so far we have not had any constructive case put by hon. Members opposite in support of their Amendment, which is, in fact, a Vote of Censure on the Government. We have merely had all the old repetitions, the old slogans and old criticisms which we have known so often repeated not only in this House but at Tory conferences, like the recent conference at Llandudno.
  Instead of recognising that our people have made great efforts in the field of production, instead of recognising that our people have made great efforts in the industrial field, in the field of exports, and in the field of basic industries, in the struggle to overcome our balance of payments problem, hon. Members opposite, led by their leader, the right hon. Mem-
  810
  ber for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) have repeatedly denigrated the activities of the British people. Time and time again, in the country and in this House, hon. Members opposite have done that. Hon. Members opposite who have visited the United States of America have chosen in that country to run down Britain, an act which I believe is unpatriotic, because it is a reflection on their countrymen. We have been told that we are now a nation of "Tired Tims" and "Weary Willies." Such phrases have been used by the Tory Party and I believe they cast a slur on the British people. Yet, if we turn to neutral observers like Mr. Hoffman, who has been quoted this afternoon, we find a different view. I wish to quote from the London correspondent of the "Washington Post," Ferdinand Kuhn junior, who is reported, in the "News Chronicle "under the heading" Well done, Britain," in an article on Britain's battle for recovery, to have said:
  A visitor from the Continent wonders why so many British people show so little pride in the effort their country has made. He suspects they have listened to too many speeches by Conservative politicians telling them that this is somehow a sordid, mean and ignoble chapter in their history. Actually, no other nation in Europe has done more to pull itself up by its own boot-straps.
  It being Ten o'Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

  CONTROL OF POSTERS
  10.0 p.m.
  Mr. Wyatt: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Regulations, dated 12th July, 1948, entitled the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No. 1613), a copy of which was presented on 13th July, 1948. in a former Session of Parliament, be annulled.
  This Motion relates to the Regulations which have been laid by the Minister of Town and Country Planning, No. 1613, under the new Town and Country Planning Act. I have only a limited complaint against these regulations because I think they are quite admirable as a whole and answer their purpose well. My complaint is directed against the passages which refer, in their complicated way, to the posting of political posters. In a curious manner, some person at the

  811
  Ministry of Town and Country Planning has struck a severe blow at democracy. I cannot believe that it was done on purpose; it must have been done accidentally. The reason why I have moved this Motion tonight is to give those concerned an opportunity to remedy this grave attack on our democratic traditions.
  In the past, it has been the custom in this country for fly-posters to operate either at election times or between elections, and to put up their posters for the organisations which have hired their services, and for the fly-poster to be liable to be fined or convicted should he be caught, but not for the organisation itself to be in any way liable. Under these regulations new law has in fact been made. It is no longer merely the fly-poster who is liable but the organisation which owns the poster. That is to say, that if a local constituency party of any political faith instructs a fly-poster to put up their posters, from now on it is not necessary for the owner of the property to catch the fly-poster. He merely has to go straight to the person who owns the poster, and that person becomes liable to a fine of - £50 and £2 a day for every day on which the poster remains after conviction.
  That is a very serious matter, but in a general way these regulations seek to mitigate the position which they themselves create. They say that although generally speaking the local authority will be the authority that decides whether or not posters of certain descriptions may be put up, there will be two exceptions to the rule that the consent of the local authority has to be obtained to display posters. The first exception concerns advertisements
  "relating to any event or other matter of a temporary nature in connection with an activity promoted for non-commercial purposes by or on behalf of any local organisation of a religious, educational, cultural, social or recreational character, …"
  That is under Part IV, Class III (c). The consent of the local authority has not to be obtained before one puts up that sort of poster. It is not clear whether a poster relating to a political meeting comes within that category. When I make a speech in my constituency I regard it as being of a highly educational character. When an Opposition Member makes a speech in my constituency, I do not take
  812
  the same view. I should like to know what is the view which the Minister of Town and Country Planning takes of speeches either by myself or my opponents.
  The other sort of poster for which it is not necessary to obtain the consent of the local authority to put up, is posters displayed at election times. These may be posted provided that they are taken down within 14 days after the election is over. That is to say, both these classes of poster may be put up without the consent of the local authority, but the consent of the owner of the property has to be obtained before even these excepted posters can be put up. It does not say in the regulations that the consent of the tenant is sufficient. It says it shall be that of the owner of the property or any other person entitled to grant such permission. I read that phrase as meaning that the other person entitled to give permission is the agent who acts for the owner and not the tenant. If I am wrong, that matter should be cleared up. The regulation should be withdrawn and it should be clearly stated whether A is the owner or the tenant or both.
  In Birmingham we have had recently a nasty experience when a local municipal by-Election was fought. We won the Election—that was a pleasant experience. But the nasty experience was due to the fact that we were unable to obtain the permission of local property owners, particularly factory owners, to put our posters on their walls, whereas the opposition Conservatives were well able to secure the consent of their friends and supporters to stick these posters up. In most industrial places, Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool one finds that the vast majority of property is not owned by the tenant, but is owned in blocks, and the owner is usually found to be a supporter of the Opposition. That applies particularly to factories.
  If these factors are taken altogether it would seem that the purpose of these regulations should have really been described as regulations to prevent the future display of Labour Party posters but to allow the future display of the Conservative Party posters. That is a very grave blow to democracy, because naturally it gives an unfair advantage to one side. There is another defect in these regulations in my view, in that the

  813
  posters have to be taken down within fourteen days of the Election to which they refer even in cases where one is allowed to put them up. This is virtually impossible. Local constituency parties cannot be organised to such a high pitch of perfection as to be able to get the posters down within 14 days.
  What I wish to ask the Minister to do is to promise, first, that he will put fly-posting back on the old existing basis, thus allowing the traditional sport of Englishmen to continue at Election time. I am sure that the new Ministry of Town and Country Planning has no intention to do away with traditions which are valuable in our life and which give great pleasure to all concerned. I am sure that the three hon. Members of the Opposition that we have here tonight would support me in that plea, because it is something which applies to both sides of the House.
  The second thing I want the Minister to do is to say in these regulations that it is not the owner necessarily who has to give consent for specified classes of advertisements to be posted, but that the tenant may also give his permission and that that permission will be sufficient. The next thing I would ask the Minister to do is to say that after an election campaign has been completed if the owner of the property or the tenant does not care for these notices to be stuck on his premises—he is always of course at liberty to tear them down at any time—but if he does not care for them to remain there for the 14 days, he should either take them down himself or, alternatively, the political party concerned should be given, not seven days' grace, which is the time allowed by the enforcement notice, but two months' grace, which will give them reasonable time to go round the Division and get the posters down.
  The fourth thing I want to ask him is to specify that at a time of General Election or a by-election, if he has felt that he cannot put fly-posting back on the old amiable semi-illegal basis, that he should provide at a General Election or by-election or municipal election of any sort that no consent shall be necessary before election posters are posted on any walls of property of any description, provided that they are not posted at the rate or at the density of more than one
  814
  to every 20 square feet. The last thing I want to ask the Minister to do tonight is to make it quite clear whether my speeches in my constituency are educational in character, social in character, religious or merely cultural in character.
  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. Shackleton: I beg to second the Motion.
  I am sure that the House is full of admiration for the courage of the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) in tackling this highly technical and legal subject. I think that we would agree that his speech may or may not be educational, but it was certainly recreational. There is one serious objection to these particular regulations, and that is that the Town and Country Planning Act has already in pursuance of the Government's full employment policy guaranteed full employment for lawyers for many years to come, and these will now tend to produce a state which economists call "over-employment."
  The regulations are extremely difficult for any one to follow, and I think that hon. Members on all sides of the House, knowing the difficulties that face election agents, would realise and press for an alternative in order to relieve the anxiety which election agents continuously have that they may be breaking the law and find themselves and their candidates in serious trouble. I am not in full agreement with everything which the hon. Member for Aston said, but I think that it is important that we should discuss these regulations, and I hope that the Minister will agree to have another look at them and, if possible, make amendments or issue new regulations which will remove the points of doubt that have been raised tonight.
  One particular point which the hon. Member for Aston made was the fact that the Labour Party, which does not number among its supporters so many of the propertied classes as the Opposition Party, will find itself at a disadvantage when it comes to putting up posters. I think that the Labour Party and the Labour Government have shown in the Representation of the People Act a most willing acceptance of a considerable electoral disadvantage. I do not think that anyone can accuse the Labour Government of having done anything except in the highest interests of democracy, and

  815
  I object strongly to the fact that we should now unfairly handicap ourselves by these new regulations.
  With regard to the particular point which the hon. Member for Aston made as to whether permission should be given by the owner or tenant under Regulation 5 (4), it seems to me that it means the owner or his agent, and I think that should be altered to the tenant. Under Regulation 14, which permits the putting up of election advertisements without the express consent of the local planning authority, it is quite clear that all parties who put up election posters will take advantage of the benefit of that regulation.
  My hon. Friend mentioned that it was required that these advertisements should be removed within 14 days. That is an obligation on all political parties, and it seems an intolerable thing that political parties, exhausted, worn-out, wretched or triumphant should have the business of going round trying to pull down posters which they may even have forgotten having put up. It will be an even more serious obligation on the local planning authority to take steps to have them removed. The period of warning before the offender can be hailed before the court and fined is not in this case, as I understand it under Regulation 23, seven days but 28 days; but none the less the idea that it would be necessary to go through all the business of serving enforcement notices and compelling political parties to remove posters is, I think, quite fantastic, and I hope the Minister will draw the attention of the people who have advised him in the drafting of this particular regulation of the difficulty. It just is not practicable.
  I think it is clear that these regulations have got to be reconsidered; and it is also clear that it is an obligation on all political parties to see that they are reconsidered. In seconding this Motion, therefore, I hope that the House will support my hon. Friend, and that the Minister will agree to make concessions.
  10.15 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. King): I am sure the House will be grateful to my hon. Friend, if only because he has given the House ten
  816
  minutes first-rate entertainment. I am also grateful, because he has given me the opportunity of clearing up what are, I think, some genuine misunderstandings about what we have done. First of all, let me put the regulations in proper perspective. I hope the House will not concentrate wholly on negatives. The 1947 Act is positive: its aim is to preserve and develop the English countryside, and to reinforce the planning authorities with new powers adequate to that very important task. I think I may ask for, and I am sure I shall receive, the sympathy of all parties, and particularly my own, in our anxiety to reduce the effects of unrestricted commercial competition, at least in so far as it issues uncontrolled and dirty peeling placards.
  The two speeches so far would lead one to suppose that these regulations were concerned wholly with politics. The main objective of these regulations is advertisements as a whole, and generally speaking we have in mind commerce rather than politics. Sections 31 and 32 of the Act are relevant, and I thought there was in the mind of my hon. Friend some confusion between the Act and the regulations. It is the Act itself which suggests that the consent of local authorities must be obtained to advertisement display; it is the Act itself which defines "advertisement" in the widest possible terms; it is the Act itself which provides the penalty; and it is the Act itself which lays responsibility on the owner or the occupier and on the organisation. Those things Parliament has already approved, and, if I may say so, for those things my hon. Friend himself voted.
  Mr. Wyatt: I was not here.
  Mr. King: Well, my hon. Friend did vote. At least, his name is recorded in the Division List.
  I turn now to the regulations themselves. First, control is exercisable by the planning authority in two regards only: If an advertisement contravenes either amenity or public safety. Regulation 4 (4) is of cardinal importance. It says:
  "consent … shall not contain any limitation or restriction relating to any particular subject matter or class of subject matter."
  Now, those words may seem dull but they are vital. Probably, primarily in

  817
  people's minds is commerce; but advertisements also relate to religion, ethics, and to social and political activities of every kind. I first want to make the point that those subjects are inseparable. I am sure it would be repugnant to the House if there were any form of censorship; and if we were to separate the different types of thing which might be advertised and have one regulation for one type and another regulation for another we should immediately be involved in a form of censorship. We are concerned with the advertisement as an advertisement: whether it advertises Sloane's back ache pills, or advises people to join the Communist Party, or tells people the distance to Llandudno is quite immaterial to us. It is just an advertisement, and we are more concerned with the standard conditions that it should be safe and clean.
  I will not deal with the major part of the regulations. They have not been raised. Our first aim is to control existing advertisements so as to create as little disturbance as possible, and secondly, to deal with new advertisements. But in order to make the attainment of the objective of the regulations less burdensome we have set out a number of types of advertisement which are exempt from the necessity of obtaining consent.
  The regulations deem consent to have been obtained. It is upon this that my hon. Friend has concentrated. First, and here I come to the subject matter of the two complaints, advertisements relating specifically to pending Parliamentary and local government elections, and advertisements relating to statutory notices or traffic signs, require no permission or consent to be obtained from the local authority. It is true that they have to be removed after 14 days, but I will return to that in a moment. Secondly, we set out in Regulation 12 a number of specific classes, which I will omit to quote except for the one referred to by my hon. Friend, which I had better give in full. These are the types of advertisement for which no planning consent has to be obtained:
  "Advertisements relating to any event or other matter of a temporary nature in connection with an activity promoted for noncommercial purposes by or on behalf of any local organisation of a religious, educational. cultural, social or recreational character."
  818
  For all these consents are deemed to exist. My hon. Friend is not very happy with these arrangements and seeks to annul them. His particular point is fly-posting. Let me make the point that fly-posting has always been illegal. First, it is actionable as a form of trespass, and, secondly, it is a criminal offence under various local enactments. He put forward what is really a cheerful and light-hearted argument. He says that his conscience is very supple and his fly-posters so fleet of foot that so far he has not been found out. He now says that it is more likely that in future he will be found out as the result of these regulations. That is not an argument which can be seriously put before a legislative assembly. If he seeks amendment to the law of trespass he has an opportunity to do so by a private Members' Bill, but he cannot expect us to amend the law in an advertisement regulation.
  I will try to take his points seriatim, and I have some sympathy with them. I understand his argument to be that permission of owners of lands must be obtained. In his division, he says the owners are mainly Tory and that therefore this is a disadvantage to the Labour Party. My hon. Friend is misinformed. He is under an illusion. If he reads the relevant sentence carefully, he will find it reads:
  "Owner of land or of a person entitled to grant such permission."
  I obviously took legal advice on this matter, and the advice I am given is that, apart from rare cases where there is some covenant in the lease, the tenant would be entitled under that regulation to grant such permission without applying to his landlord; nor could the landlord object to the action of his tenant, because the tenant is a person with a right to the exclusive use of the premises.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: If that be so, why have the words "owner of land?" Why not say, "the person entitled to grant permission"?
  Mr. King: There would be considerable difficulty in some cases in finding who was the person entitled to grant permission. So far I have been concentrating upon houses. There are also many vacant plots, bombed sites and the like, where it is not obvious at once who is the owner or tenant.
  Mr. Hale: But in many cases the person who is entitled to grant permission has to be ascertained. The words "the person entitled to grant permission" would cover the whole point.
  Mr. King: If one says "the owner or person entitled to grant permission" then it is possible to attach responsibility to somebody.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aston said it was unreasonable to require that posters should be removed within 14 days. Again, we have taken the best advice obtainable, and we have also consulted the national agent of the Labour Party—who, I suggest, knows as much about elections as my hon. Friend—and representatives of the other parties as well. So far as our own party is concerned I have it in writing that they do not feel any dissatisfaction on the subject at all. It is purely a practical point. We want the posters down, and it is a practical point as to how many days it is reasonably necessary to give to bill posters to do that job. If we said 17 days somebody else might say 21 or 28 days. We have also consulted the Association of Billposters, and think that the job can be done within 14 days.
  On the third point, my hon. Friend is on stronger ground. I return to the subject of what is politics. Is it recreation or is it religion? That, I admit, is highly controversial, but I personally would have taken the view that a political meeting was covered by the words I have read to the House. I admit, however, that it is open to doubt and difficulty, and my right hon. Friend is prepared to make a concession which, I hope, my hon. Friend will accept in the spirit in which it is offered. We shall lay before the House another regulation in which we undertake to insert the word "political."
  As for the three points my hon. Friend has raised the first, I submit, has no legal substance. On the second, we have consulted the agents of the political parties, who are satisfied; and, on the third, we have conceded what my hon. Friend has asked for. We have done our best to meet him, and I hope he will meet us by withdrawing the Motion. My right hon. Friend gives an additional undertaking to consult with him, or any representative of the parties concerned. We are anxious to reach agreement, and settle the matter so that no grievance
  820
  remains. We would like to have unanimity in the House, and I hope we shall obtain it.
  Mr. Wyatt: I am very glad that my hon. Friend has been so kind as to concede some of the points I put to him, but I am not quite certain that the agents of all the national political parties are satisfied, as I had a visit from an official at Transport House this afternoon, who told me of the points he intended to raise later with the Minister. I do not think he could have been entirely satisfied with the regulations although I agree he has in the main met those points. I still think that the Labour Party are at a disadvantage, because even though the tenant of a house may give permission there are large areas of factory property, and the like, which are entirely in the hands of people supporting the Opposition. Such people would never grant permission for Labour Party posters to be placed on their property. I think it a pity that the law of trespass was amended by these regulations. My hon. Friend claimed that I wished to amend the law, but he has done it and I still want him to put it back as it was previously. However, in view of the concession he has made I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  SCOTTISH LIBRARY AND PORTRAIT GALLERY
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn"—[Mr. Popplewell.]
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. Gilzean: I am glad to have the opportunity of raising a question of some importance to the City of Edinburgh and to Scotland generally. About 23 years ago the Faculty of Advocates in Scotland decided to make a gift of their 260-years-old library for the purpose of forming the nucleus of what would ultimately be a National Library. Along with that very generous gift on the part of the Faculty of Advocates, Sir Alexander Grant gave £100,000 for the purpose of making the library possible, and some little time afterwards he gave a further £100,000, with the addition of £16,000 accrued interest; so there appeared, on the sur

  821
  face, to be every reason to anticipate that without much loss of time Scotland would have a National Library that would be worthy of the country.
  The trustees who were responsible for making this hope a reality unfortunately found themselves, before very long, confronted with circumstances, due to the war, that made it impossible for them to carry out their scheme in full. They had, however, got to the length of a steel erection of what was to constitute the building of the National Library, and there that steel structure stands at the present day. I am not going to suggest tonight that anything should be attempted in that direction, but there are one or two things that have to be borne in mind and which call for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Works, who is responsible for the building side of this business.
  This library is one of three libraries in this country which, under the Copyright Act, are entitled to a copy of every book that is published, and the accessions to the library in the course of a year amount to something like 60,000 books. The total number of volumes in the library is in the region of two million. The question is: how are we to overcome the increasing difficulty of handling this considerable number of books and at the same time give patrons of the library the opportunity of getting the information they require? The question is one that rests with the Minister of Works. Can he not do something in the direction of giving the library the space that it requires so that the books can at least be stacked in some sort of order, making it possible to use them?
  Up to the present time they have been putting books into prison cells, and putting them into air-raid shelters, simply because there was no other place in which to put them. In those circumstances, I hope there will be a reply from the Minister which will indicate that something can be done. The library is at a great disadvantage. Compare it with others of similar importance in the country. The Bodleian Library has approximately the same number of books—somewhere in the region of two million—and it has a staff of 65 persons. The Cambridge University Library also has two million books, and it has a staff of 53 persons. The National Library of Wales, with one million books, has a staff of 31 persons.
  822
  The National Library of Ireland, with 500,000 books, has a staff of 33 persons; and the National Library of Scotland, with two million books, has a staff of only 28 persons.
  I am not suggesting for a moment that the Department refuse to give extra help. The broad fact of the matter is that, although our staff is not as many as the staff of any other library which I have mentioned, it is impossible to employ any more staff because we have not the room to use them, just as we have not room to stack the books, and have not the room where readers can come to get the information they desire.
  Edinburgh has been aspiring in the last year or two to a cultural development which hitherto she has not been able to attain. She is attempting this cultural development through music, through the drama, and through the arts, although I am afraid it will take a long time for Calvinistic Edinburgh to attain the standard one would like to see her reach in that particular direction. Although her attainments in the realm of drama, music and of the arts have still a long way to go, Edinburgh has never been behind in literature, in which she has a great reputation. For those reasons, while not asking the Minister to do anything which would put difficulties in his way—because I know the building problems which confront the country at present—I hope he will seek to ease the situation to some extent by at least giving us space in which the books would be safe from wind and weather and where they could easily be got at, even though the outward appearance of the building were far from desirable. We should be grateful to him for that, and it would be a great boon to booklovers, not only in Edinburgh but in the many parts of Scotland from which they come to visit the library.
  I will say one word about the National Portrait Gallery. Like many other places, it had to be turned over to more utilitarian uses during the war. The war has now been over for some considerable time, yet the pictures which constitute the story of Scotland in art are still in the wrappings into which they were put for safety when they were put
  away during the war. These pictures, apart from the interest they offer when displayed in galleries, also have a very

  823
  fine educational value for children, especially children in the City of Edinburgh. Children read the history of Scotland at school, but their knowledge is greatly improved if, along with their reading, they can see displayed fine paintings of the people of whom they are continually reading. I think it would not be too much to ask the Department that, once again, the Scottish Portrait Gallery should be returned to its original use. It is something which is part of Scotland, and it should, I am sure all hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree, be given back to us.
  10.40 p.m.
  Mr. Willis: We are indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Gilzean) for having raised this question, which is one of very great concern to the people interested in the National Library and the National Portrait Gallery. I must say at the outset that it seems a pity that Scottish hon. Members opposite are apparently not interested in either of these institutions, as they are absent, with the single exception of the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie). The war has been over now for more than three years, and I think that it is true to say that in no other country which participated in it, with the exception of the conquered countries of Austria, Germany, and Japan, is a national art gallery still used for war-time purposes.
  At the present time, the National Portrait Gallery is occupied by the National Registration Department, and the pictures forming the exhibition in the Gallery are stacked in piles between the desks and tables, typewriters, and filing cabinets, and the hundred or so staff employed in the building. It so happens that I have a little shop opposite the portrait gallery, and visitors who come to the shop, looking round the books which I sell, often say in the course of conversation, "Where is the National Portrait Gallery?" I apologetically have to tell them that it is just across the road from my shop, and that, even if they entered the building, they would find the pictures probably hidden under some typist's desk. I suggest that this is an insult to Scotland; it is an insult that one of its national collections should be in this state.
  824
  We have tried to develop Edinburgh as an international festival centre, and I think it may be said that the endeavours which have been made there have met with a fair measure of success. They augur well for the future, and it should be remembered that they have been of great help to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in encouraging visitors and tourists and attracting foreign exchange. But fancy this city—a capital city, and a very old city—having to tell its visitors during an international festival, "You cannot see our books or our pictures; they are in store." Fancy having to tell visitors that the building is used by the National Registration authorities. I suggest that, had this library and this portrait gallery been in London, they would have received some different treatment from that which they have received.
  The Minister of Works(Mr. Key)indicated dissent.
  Mr. Willis: My right hon. Friend shakes his head, but he would have some difficulty, I assure him, in convincing people north of the Border that that is not the case. In fact, I think there has been a tendency to treat this as a purely local affair—as something which can be dismissed as being in the Provinces. But it is not. I have raised this matter of the portrait gallery on previous occasions during Question Time. On the last occasion I was informed that the Ministry hoped to commence additional office building in the new year, that is, 1949; and that when the additional office accommodation became available, the portrait gallery would be freed. Cannot the Minister move the National Registration people from the portrait gallery before the festival which is to take place next year? Can we not have something rather better than the indefinite promises which he has made concerning this building? I think that if he made some statement along those lines, it would give great satisfaction indeed to the people of Scotland.
  10.46 p.m.
  The Minister of Works (Mr. Key): I hope that in the short statement I am going to make I shall be able to give some satisfaction to my hon. friends about both these problems.
  First, so far as the National Library is concerned, I think it must be admitted that my Department acted very well when

  825
  there was a chance of doing things—at least in the early stages. When the gift, to which there has been reference, was made for the extension of the National Library, the terms of the gift were such that it entailed the necessary extension being built on the site of the old Sheriff Court House. The first thing my Department did was to undertake, as a charge on Exchequer funds, the erection of a new Sheriff Court House, which was completed in 1937.
  Then the Department obtained possession of the site where the extension was to be built, and had to undertake the work of demolition of the old Sheriff Court House. That was started in November, 1937, and completed in August, 1938, and tenders were invited for the foundation work and superstructure work of the new National Library. Work on the new building went on very satisfactorily from October, 1938, but had to be suspended because of the war—and was suspended by agreement with the trustees, on the understanding that we would do our best to provide them with necessary accommodation for the storage of books during war-time. We had hoped to do that on the three advanced stackage floors which had already been erected when the work was suspended, and my Department felt at that time that it would be possible to provide the necessary stackage for books accumulating during the war period on those three floors. Unluckily, the supply of steel during the war made that impossible, but the Department did everything it could to provide storage accommodation in the vaults and old police cells of the Law Courts. It has now completed the erection of shelving on one of the stack-age floors of the new building, and this will make it possible for stackage to proceed at least until the end of 1950.
  I know that this in itself is not all that is necessary, and we now want to go further and make it possible for general development to proceed. Up to the present time, because of the building difficulties in Scotland, we have not been able to make this extension fit into the Scottish building programme, but things have now improved and we now feel that it is possible to bring it into the building programme for 1949. I want to say quite definitely that we have included the continuation of this work in the draft estimates of our Department for 1949. These
  826
  are draft estimates and they have got to be considered by the Treasury, in conjunction with all the estimates we shall put in, but I feel it is going to be possible to get agreement to that, and, subject to the international situation and financial exigencies, it is our intention to restart building operations in 1949.
  We shall have to go out for new tenders for the work, but I see no reason why we should not get on with completing the stackage arrangements in that part of the building which has already been begun, so as to bring about the transfer from the existing part of the building, and then go on with the completion of the whole scheme. I am advised that it is quite possible, if we can get a start in 1949, that we shall he able to complete the whole of the building by the end of 1953. Therefore, I hope that this will help to meet the stackage problem of accumulated books and satisfy my hon. Friends that we are really in earnest in going forward with this job.
  As far as the National Portrait Gallery is concerned, we have had very great difficulties in finding accommodation for the National Registration staff because, frankly, there have been great difficulties in getting office accommodation in Edinburgh. I did feel at one time that the only way to satisfy this need would probably be the erection of new office accommodation, but I am glad to be able to inform the House that negotiations are in progress for the acquisition of premises which have been accepted as satisfactory, as regards both location and size, by the Registrar-General, and that we have every reason to believe that those negotiations will be shortly completed.
  All we have to do is comparatively minor adaptations in those premises to make them satisfactory to the Registrar-General. We are, therefore, now making arrangements to proceed with the adaptation of those premises, and I am sure that we shall be able to start almost immediately on the work and that it will be completed in some three or four months' time. I believe I am not holding out a hope that will not be realised, but I feel certain we shall attain it, and that the gallery can be vacated at the end of March, 1949. I hope these two statements that I have been able to make will satisfy my hon. Friends.
  10.53 p.m.
  Mr. McKie: I think the whole House is under an obligation to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Gilzean) for having raised this matter on the Adjournment tonight, because he made it very clear in his speech how deep the feeling is in certain quarters of Scotland regarding this matter, particularly the Advocates' Library and the extreme lag in getting on with that job. I thank the Minister of Works for what he has said on these two points. I confess I do not feel as deeply as hon. Members opposite regarding the National Portrait Gallery, but I am not myself insensitive to the necessity for enabling the public to see all those great works of art at the earliest possible opportunity.
  I was sorry that the hon. Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Willis) saw fit in his speech to include a gibe regarding hon. Members on this side representing Scottish constituencies not being present in larger numbers. That is not in any way due to any lack of appreciation on
  828
  their part of the necessity for getting on with the work as far as the Advocates' Library in Edinburgh is concerned. The right hon. Gentleman made it quite clear that nearly 15 years—from 1923 to 1938—elapsed before work was really started. I recall that in 1932 the former hon. Member for Hillhead, Sir Robert Home, urged the then National Government to proceed with that work without delay.
  I hope the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I approach this matter more or less from a non-party point of view. Having regard to his well-known partisan views, I hope he will appreciate what his speech tonight means. I am delighted with his speech as a whole, but so far as the Advocates' Library is concerned, I would urge him to realise how much time has been wasted.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Three Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

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  SMALLPOX AND CHICKENPOX (INFECTED SHIPS)
  SMALLPOX AND CHICKENPOX (INFECTED SHIPS)
  MAURITIUS (LOCAL GOVERNMENT)
  MAURITIUS (LOCAL GOVERNMENT)
  BERMUDA (JOINT COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
  BERMUDA (JOINT COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
  BRITISH GUIANA (RECOGNISED TRADE UNIONS)
  BRITISH GUIANA (RECOGNISED TRADE UNIONS)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Ritchie of Dundee—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

Prayers

  ARMY AND AIR FORCE COURTS MARTIAL COMMITTEE
  2.35 p.m.
  LORD SCHUSTER: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government the first question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The question was as follows:
  To ask His Majesty's Government whether the Committee presided over by Mr. Justice Lewis has reported, and, if so, when was the Report received by the Secretary of State for War (or the Army Council) and by the Secretary of State for Air (or the Air Council) respectively, and when the Report will be published.]
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have been requested by my noble friend Lord Pakenham, who is away on rather important business, to reply to this question for him. The Army and Air Force Courts Martial Committee, under the Chairmanship of Mr. Justice Lewis, submitted their Final Report to the Secretaries of State for War and for Air in May, 1948. Inter-departmental consideration of the Report is nearly complete, and it is hoped that the Report, together with the views of His Majesty's Government, will be made public in the course of the next two or three months.
  LORD SCHUSTER: I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his reply.

MURDER STATISTICS
LORD SCHUSTER: My Lords, I beg to ask the second question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government how many persons have been convicted
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of murder in England and Wales since April 14, 1948; and of these how many were found guilty but insane at their trials; how many have since conviction been declared insane; and how many have been executed; and what were the sexes of those convicted and of those murdered.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, between April 14, 1948, and September 30, 1948 (I take September 30 because that is the most convenient date, making allowance for appeals and so on), 33 persons were tried on charges of murder. Seventeen were convicted and sentenced to death, and one was convicted and ordered to be detained during pleasure under the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933. In addition to these, 5 of the 33 tried, were found guilty but insane, and 8 were found insane on arraignment. Of the 17 persons sentenced to death, 3 have since been certified insane and removed to Broadmoor. None has been executed. Of the 17 persons convicted and sentenced to death, 16 were male and one was female; and of the 15 victims in these cases, 8 were mile and 7 female. Of the 14 persons found insane on arraignment, or guilty but insane, or convicted and ordered to be detained under the Children and Young Persons Act, 9 were male and 5 female; and of the 15 victims in these cases, 8 were male and 7 female.
LORD SCHUSTER: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount, for his reply.

SWIMMING INSTRUCTION IN THE ROYAL NAVY
2.38 p.m.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, what are the regulations requiring officers and men serving in His Majesty's ships to be able to swim; whether their attention has been called to statements which have appeared in the Press of men who were in the pinnace of H.M.S. "Illustrious," which went down in the recent gale, appealing for assistance as they could not

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swim; and whether any record is kept of officers and men now serving in the Royal Navy who are unable to swim; and what steps are taken to remove this disability.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, there is no regulation which requires officers and men to be able to swim before they are appointed or drafted to one of His Majesty's ships. In the interest of themselves and their shipmates, however, they are encouraged to learn to swim and all possible instruction is given, both in ships and shore establishments. Indeed, the passing of the swimming test was an essential qualification for advancing to Leading rate in certain branches before the last war. It was suspended during hostilities, but is now being reintroduced and extended to certain other branches, and will eventually apply to all branches of the Royal Navy for advancement to Leading rate.
In all His Majesty's ships a record of swimming instruction is required to be maintained, and the number of non-swimmers remaining in any ship is to be produced at all inspections. The inspecting officer is to satisfy himself that everyone below Leading rate, and every boy who has not passed the standard test, is receiving all possible instruction. My attention has been called to a statement in the Press, to which the noble Lord has referred, but until the Report of the Board of Inquiry has been considered I am unable to say anything further. I am sure, however, that noble Lords will join with me in expressing the deepest sympathy with the relatives of those who lost their lives on this sad occasion.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: I thank the noble Viscount for his reply, but does not this terrible disaster show the desirability of everyone serving on board His Majesty's ships being able to pass a simple swimming test whereby he could keep himself afloat until he was rescued? It seems to me that not only the life of the person concerned but also other lives which are at present placed in jeopardy might be saved if such a regulation were enforced.
VISCOUNT SIMON: I think the noble Viscount's answer, if I heard it aright, referred to officers, as well as to men. Is it not the case that, at any rate as regards
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naval cadets who go through Dartmouth, everybody is required to become not only a swimmer but a competent one?
VISCOUNT HALL: May I deal first with the point raised by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon? Everybody who enters Dartmouth is given swimming instruction, and I think it possible that all cadets there can swim. But this is not the only channel of entry into the Navy. A number of men enter at eighteen or eighteen-and-a-half, and a number of them do not receive instruction until they join the Royal Navy. With regard to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Broughshane, it is certainly desirable that everyone should be able to swim, but no person can be prohibited from joining the Navy because he cannot swim. Indeed, every inducement is offered to those who join, and who cannot swim, to learn to swim. The fact that they cannot secure advancement to Leading rate—which is rather a drastic penalty—is an indication that every step is being taken to get everyone, so far as possible, to swim. It is fully realised, of course, how desirable it is, from the point of view of both the men themselves and their relatives, that every man should be able to swim.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
2.42 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Committee be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Privy Seal and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

M. Reading.

E. Stanhope.

E. Fortescue.

E. Lucan.

E. Vane. (M. Londonderry.)

V. Mersey.

V. Wimborne.

V. Hailsham.

V. Samuel.

V. Swinton.

V. Maugham.

L. Fairfax of Cameron.

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L. Templemore.

L. Hare. (E. Listowel.)

L. Hindlip.

L. Stanmore.

L. Hutchison of Montrose.

L. Nathan.

L. Ammon.

L. Walkden.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move the next Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Standing Orders Committee be appointed and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Privy Seal, and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

E. Huntingdon.

E. Perth.

E. Stanhope.

E. Fortescue.

E. Lucan.

E. Vane. (M. Londonderry.)

E. Strafford.

V. Mersey.

V. Wimborne.

V. Ullswater.

V. Hailsham.

V. Samuel.

V. Maugham.

L. Strabolgi.

L. Teynham.

L. Clanwilliam. (E. Clanwilliam.)

L. Templemore.

L. Denman.

L. Hare. (E. Listowel.)

L. O'Hagan.

L. Stanmore.

L. Holden.

L. Merthyr.

L. Cozens-Hardy.

L. Faringdon.

L. Clwyd.

L. Jessel.

L. Hutchison of Montrose.

L. Rushcliffe.

L. Tweedsmuir.

L. Latham.

L. Ammon.

L. Schuster.

L. Walkden.

L. Kershaw.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
All Petitions relating to the Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Committee unless otherwise, ordered.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move the third Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all Special Orders of the present Session; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Privy Seal and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Norfolk.

M. Salisbury.

E. Perth.

E. Stanhope.

E. Fortescue.

E. Lucan.

E. Strafford.

E. Cromer.

E. Iveagh.

V. Mersey.

V. Wimborne.

V. Hailsham.

V. Samuel.

V. Maugham.

L. Strabolgi.

L. Teynham.

L. Carrington.

L. Templemore.

L. Denman.

L. Hare. (E. Listowel.)

L. O'Hagan.

L. Stanmore.

L. Holden.

L. Merthyr.

L. Cozens-Hardy.

L. Faringdon.

L. Hutchison of Montrose.

L. Rushcliffe.

L. Kenilworth.

L. Belstead.

L. Latham.

L. Ammon.

L. Schuster.

L. Walkden.

L. Kershaw.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move this Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Privy Seal, and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Norfolk.

D. Wellington.

M. Salisbury.

M. Cholmondeley.

M. Zetland.

E. Huntingdon.

E. Perth.

E. Dartmouth.

E. Stanhope.

E. Ilchester.

E. De La Warr.

E. Clarendon.

E. Fortescue.

E. Lucan.

E. Vane (M. Londonderry.)

E. Strafford.

E. Ancaster.

E. Cromer.

E. Iveagh.

E. Halifax.

V. Allendale.

V. Mersey.

V. Wimborne.

V. Ullswater.

V. Hailsham.

V. Samuel.

V. Swinton.

V. Maugham.

V. Simon.

V. Stansgate.

V. Hall.

L. Saltoun.

L. Templemore.

L. Denman.

L. Hatherton.

L. Hare (E. Listowel.)

L. Stanmore.

L. Redesdale.

L. Jessel.

L. Macmillan.

L. Hutchison of Montrose.

L. Rushcliffe.

L. Mancroft.

L. Soulbury.

L. Ammon.

L. Simonds.

L. Schuster.

L. Walkden.

L. Pethick-Lawrence.

L. Pakenham.

L. Henderson.

L. Lindsay of Birker.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Leave given to the Committee to report from time to time.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider any proposals for alterations in the procedure of this House which may arise from time to time, and whether the Standing Orders do or do not require to be altered to effect such alterations, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Privy Seal and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Select Committee:

M. Salisbury.

E. Fortescue.

E. Lucan.

V. Mersey.

V. Ullswater.

V. Samuel.

V. Swinton.

V. Stansgate.

L. Strabolgi.

L. Denman.

L. Stanmore.

L. Marley.

L. Rankeillour.

L. Soulbury.

L. Ammon.

L. Schuster.

L. Henderson.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PERSONAL BILLS COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I beg to move the last Motion which stands on the Order Paper in my name.
Moved, That there be appointed a Personal Bills Committee to which all Petitions for Personal Bills, presented during the present Session, which have been certified as such under the provisions of Standing Order 3 relating to Private Bills, shall stand referred, and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

V. Hailsham.

L. Simonds.

L. Uthwatt.

L. Kershaw.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

TRIAL OF GERMAN GENERALS
2.45 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING THE MARQUESS OF READING rose to move to resolve, That in view of the length of time which has elapsed since their capture and of the circumstances of their detention since that date, the proposed trial of certain senior German general officers as war criminals is not in accordance with the principles of British justice, and that the proceedings should therefore be discontinued. The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I can claim neither novelty nor originality for the subject of the Motion which is before your Lordships to-day. It is a topic which has already been discussed on a number of occasions in another place since the Summer Recess, and on one occasion in your Lordships' House when, during a debate on the international situation in the course of that short Session specially designed for the better chastisement of your Lordships, the question was raised incidentally in a speech on the general subject by the noble Lord, Lord De L'Isle and Dudley. But in the circumstances I make no excuse for offering to your Lordships a fuller opportunity to consider and to express your views upon a matter which I believe to be of fundamental importance at the moment. Having read the replies made by a multiplicity of persons on behalf of the Government—the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, the Lord President of the Council, and the Under-Secretary of State for War—it does not seem to me that any one of them has yet grasped what is the real basis of the opposition to the course which they are pursuing, or realised the powerful weight of public opinion that there is against the further pursuit of that policy.
It would be hypocrisy on my part if I were to pretend to your Lordships that in submitting this Motion I am animated by any peculiar tenderness for the German people as such. Indeed, that perverse blend of ferocity and docility in their character had been up to 1945 the scourge of Europe for eighty years, and I have the same reason as others of my generation in this country and in other countries for remembering that fact—and perhaps something over 5,000,000 other reasons as well. Nor have I ever detected any proof that, as a class. German
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generals were ex officio any more lovable than their compatriots at large. But if I claim no tenderness for Germans, I do claim a tenderness for the good name of British justice here and abroad, and it is because I believe that the prestige of British justice is degraded by the continuance of these proceedings that I have submitted the matter to the judgment of your Lordships to-day. This is not a fanciful thought, but is a matter of far more than local importance. In the world as we see it to-day, this country has not sought but has been accorded the moral leadership of Western Europe. I believe that one of the elements which has made this country acceptable to its colleagues as a moral leader has been the veneration which is extended everywhere in Western Europe to the integrity of the system of justice here. It would be deplorable if we selected this moment at which to relax our standards.
Justice has many attributes, but in any classification of them surely speed must always take a high place. Justice long delayed is no longer just. In this country we have been able to take pride in the fact that our administration of criminal justice has, by and large, possessed that quality of swiftness. Indeed, we have at times viewed with a certain horrified complacency the laborious creaking of the judicial machine in other countries and compared it unfavourably with the oiled efficiency of our own. But, my Lords, if these trials proceed, we shall never again be able to make a comparison of that kind without attaching to it one signal and lamentable reservation—the trial of the German generals.
To those who have challenged the Government about this matter hitherto—and be it remarked that that challenge has not come exclusively from the Opposition Parties—there has been one stereotyped reply, although the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in the long statement which he made in another place on September 22 last, professed himself quite unable to understand what the protests were about. It may possibly be that the course of the debate in your Lordships' House will at least serve the useful purpose of enlightening the Foreign Secretary to some degree upon this subject. Be that as it may, the answer which has been accorded to all inquirers so far has been practically this: "There

159
has been delay; there has been, if you like, excessive delay. We are very sorry about it, but there it is. The fact remains, however, that to try persons in subordinate positions and let their superiors go would, in our view, be wrong." I hope that the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will be saved a portion of his speech this afternoon if I say here and now that I accept entirely the principle that subordinates must not be punished and superiors allowed to go free; and he need take no time and exercise no ingenuity upon establishing and recommending that principle. But to that principle there must be some qualification—namely, that if proceedings are undertaken against the superiors (as they should be) the proceedings must be undertaken and carried through with reasonable dispatch.
Let us for a moment consider the history of this matter from the chronological aspect, as it was revealed by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his statement to which I have already referred. These men, Field-Marshal von Rundstedt, Field-Marshal von Manstein, Field-Marshal von Brauchitsch, and Colonel-General Strauss, all men of or approaching seventy years of age (although that consideration may not be particularly relevant on any other but sentimental grounds) were captured or surrendered in May or June of 1945. We are now in November of 1948, and Field-Marshal von Brauchitsch has solved the problem in regard to his case by having recently died. Between May and June, 1945, and August, 1947, nothing, at least in public, was heard of this matter, but it now appears that in August, 1947 (more than two years after they had surrendered or been captured) the United States authorities informed the authorities here that in their view there was a prima facie case against these men. I do not know what the charge then discovered was or what it is now, and I very much doubt whether they do; but that is immaterial from this particular point of view.
Having received that information in August, the Government here, apparently in October, invited the United States authorities to take over these men, who were in our hands and in captivity in this country, and to try them before the United States tribunal set up for the purpose
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of trying war criminals in Germany. To that request the United States replied in November, 1947, that it was then too late to include these men in the next batch for trial, and that that next batch would be the last because they were closing down their machinery. I pause for a moment only to ask why, if the United States thought it right to close down their machinery at the end of 1947, we find it necessary to contemplate the continuance of ours into 1949.
At the end of December, 1947, nearly a year ago, this matter was apparently considered by the Cabinet here and it was decided, the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack having advised his colleagues that there was a prima facie case against these men, to proceed with the trial. That was before the end of 1947. Seven months passed and nothing was heard of this matter except this: that in July, 1948, these men were released from captivity here and sent back to Germany. If I understand the matter aright—and I have never seen the allegation questioned, still less denied—they were sent home from their captivity here without any indication being given to them that they were not going home to liberty, but were going home to stand trial for their lives as war r criminals. I find it very difficult to think that it is in consonance with the practice of British justice that we should have sent these men away from here without some indication of the fate that was awaiting them on their return to their own country. It was not until well on in August of this year that any public announcement was made as to the intention of the Government to proceed with these trials.
As regards the charges, I say only this: that on each occasion when this matter has been discussed it has been said that these men have now (although I know not at what moment between August and now) been given a general statement of the charge against them. A "general statement," of course, can be a piece of paper on which is written: "You are about to be charged as a war criminal. I do not imagine that we expect them to stand their trial without something rather more specific than that, but it would be interesting to know whether, even now, particulars of the actual detailed charges have been put into the hands of these accused men, and, if not, when it is

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proposed to deliver these charges to them. As a corollary to that question, when is it expected that, ultimately, the trial will take place?
In that chronological table which I have given in summary form, your Lordships will observe that this matter started in May or June, 1945, and that there is no possibility of its being concluded by the end of December, 1948. I do not know, at this stage, the lines upon which the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will proceed in his reply. But, as I have said, I submit to your Lordships that the aspect of delay is the fundamental aspect, and that it cannot be pushed out of the way by any mere expression of regret, because it is intrinsic to the whole question at issue. If the noble and learned Viscount is going to tell us that these men must be tried because their subordinates have been tried, he need not bother himself about that principle. I hope that he will direct his attention to the charge of excessive delay, because although, other things being equal, that principle of responsibility cannot be challenged, it must always be subject to the consideration whether an unreasonable period of time has been allowed to elapse in the interval.
I do not know whether it will be said that in these proceedings we are being encouraged, instigated or requested by other countries. Let us remember that we are not talking about an international tribunal; we are talking about a British court which will be set up, presumably, in the British occupied area of Germany. And it is our justice which will be administered there, our conduct of the trial which will be watched, and our policy in establishing the trial which will be criticised. Consider what the position would be if this were a question, not of war criminals but of an ordinary murderer—if murderers are ever ordinary—in this country. Suppose that a man had committed a murder and had been arrested for it, or had surrendered to the police because of it, in May or June of 1945; and suppose that we had held that man in custody during the whole of the intervening period, and did not propose to bring him to trial for his life until the beginning of almost the fifth year since he had been apprehended. Would the conscience of the people in this country support that procedure?
Let us, for a moment, remember Nuremberg in this connection. We may be told that there are vast quantities of documents to be gone through in the case of these men. We know the quantities of documents which had to be gone through before the Nuremberg Trial started. Was no research required? Had no charges to be prepared? Had no indictment—and we know the elaboration of it—to be drawn up? The war came to an end in Europe in May, 1945, and by October of that same year there had been a preliminary sitting of the International Tribunal which ultimately conducted the Nuremberg Trial. And the judgment, after a prolonged and exacting hearing, was given in October, 1946. If that speed could be developed and maintained in the case of those men who were, rightly, tried at Nuremberg—among them two generals and two admirals—why is it necessary to have the delay which has elapsed in this case before it is even contemplated bringing these men to their trial? That is the gist of the whole matter. Whatever may have been their offences—and I know not what they may be—is the cause of justice served by bringing these men to trial after nearly four years of captivity have elapsed, and after they have been returned to their own country in the circumstances to which I have referred?
I desire, almost in passing, to mention two incidental but subordinate matters. In the course of debates in another place, and in correspondence in the Press, there has been a good deal of criticism of the conditions under which these men have been detained. I do not propose to take up your Lordships' time by elaborating that theme; I will merely ask at the end of my speech—and that will not be long delayed—one specific question directed to that aspect of the matter. The other question to which I would direct attention is this. In his statement in another place, the Foreign Secretary referred to the fact—and the phrase left, I confess, a somewhat disagreeable taste in my mouth—that "a series of medical boards" had been held upon these men. I do not know how many medical boards it takes to constitute a series.
Reference was made, l think, to two—one a War Office board, and the other a Home Office board—and to a joint pronouncement of the two at some subsequent stage. But I cannot help thinking

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that your Lordships would be interested to know how many medical boards—either War Office or Home Office boards—were, in fact, ordered for the benefit of these men. It may be an unjustified suspicion that the policy was to have one medical board after another in order to try to obtain the answer which the Government wanted and, if that ultimately failed, only then to be left in the unfortunate position of having no recommendation of a medical board on which to proceed. I do not like that expression "a series of medical boards," and I would be grateful for some further elucidation.
I have given the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack notice of the specific questions which I propose to put as the basis of the discussion this afternoon. The first question is: For what reason was it that after his Majesty's Government had been informed by the United States authorities, in August, 1947, that there was believed to be a prima facie case against these men, matters were so long and so grievously delayed and no public pronouncement made until August of this year? The second question is: Why were these men allowed to return to their own country without any indication of the fate that was awaiting them when they arrived there? The third question, to which I think I have already referred, is: Have any particular and specific charges even yet been presented to these men for their and their advisers' consideration? If not, when is it expected that those charges will be in being, and when is the trial timed to take place? The last question relates to the matter of the conditions in which these men have been detained, and it is this. I would like to know whether, during their detention, either in this country or since their return to their own country, these men have been detained in conformity with the International Conventions governing the treatment of prisoners of war. If those Conventions have been departed from, why has there been a departure from the normal procedure, and in what respects has that departure taken place? I hope that, as a result of this debate and the explanation of the situation which we shall hear from the noble and learned Viscount, our anxieties upon this matter, which are very real, may be relieved. But I believe I am interpreting the collective mind of your
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Lordships when I say that, so far as in us lies, we are determined to see that in the pursuit of retribution, justice shall not fall by the way. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in view of the length of time which has elapsed since their capture and of the circumstances of their detention since that date, the proposed trial of certain senior German general officers as war criminals is not in accordance with the principles of British justice, and that the proceedings should therefore be discontinued.—[The Marquess of Reading.]
3.14 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think it might be convenient to your Lordships if I were to speak at this early stage in order that I may set out a bare catalogue of the facts and dates, so that those noble Lords who take part in the debate at a later stage will know what are the circumstances. I must say at once that I think the noble Marquess who has spoken needs no excuse or apology for raising this matter. I regard it as all to the good that we should demonstrate, particularly in regard to these matters, that we are determined to see that the principles of justice by which we stand prevail. For my part, I am always glad that your Lordships' House and another place show such an interest in these matters and that you should bring all these questions under the searchlight of public opinion.
I will be frank with your Lordships and add that, for my own part, I have not found this an easy matter to decide. In what I say, I must be most careful to say nothing which will in any way prejudice the case of these persons. Subject to that, I will tell your Lordships the facts which I think we ought to bear in mind. It is true that these men came into our custody as prisoners of war in the summer of 1945. The first fallacy underlying the speech of the noble Marquess is that the period which we should consider dates from then. He likened it to a man arrested for murder who had been in custody under that charge for four years. The fallacy of that argument is this: these men were ordinary prisoners of war against whom we had no evidence whatever. They were like hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of their compatriots, prisoners of war in this country. Field-Marshal von Rundstedt actually gave evidence at the Nuremberg Trial

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and, so far as I am aware, nothing was known in regard to him at that time. Therefore, it is a complete fallacy to date the delay there has been in this case as from the summer of 1945.
I understand that the first time we knew anything of the relevant facts at all was at the end of August, 1947. We got to know them in these circumstances. The Americans were getting ready to start a trial which included amongst those to be tried Lieutenant-General Karl von Rogues, who was a commander of the Rear Area, under Field-Marshal von Rundstedt, and Lieutenant-General Otto Woehler, who was Chief of Staff to Field-Marshal von Manstein. The Americans were trying these two men, amongst others, and in the course of the preparations they were making for that trial they elicited from a mass of documents (which I must make plain are in the possession of the Americans, not in our possession; we do not have access to them) certain documents which tend to show that the three men we are now concerned with had themselves been guilty of serious war crimes. It was, I think, at the end of August, 1947, that the memorandum of evidence was sent to us by the Americans. That was some nine months after the Nuremberg Judgment. When we received that memorandum of evidence it was thought desirable that the Americans, who were already trying von Rogues and Woehler, should include at the trial their two heads, Field-Marshals von Rundstedt and von Manstein. The Americans, as they were perfectly entitled to do, refused to do so. The noble Marquess asked why the Americans now are not going on with their trial, and why should we not do the same thing. The answer is an easy one—because the Americans have tried all those major war criminals against whom they have evidence, but we have not tried some of those against whom we do have evidence.
Although I do not want to prejudice the case against these men, it is fair that I should refer to one document, or one purported document, about which your Lordships ought to be informed.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I hesitate to interrupt the noble and learned Viscount, but he said a moment ago that the Americans had all the documents and that we had not got them. If they
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have all the documents, why do they close down instead of proceeding on the evidence which they have?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Because I think the Americans take the view that it is oar turn, and that we must not shirk our share. It is all very well for your Lordships to laugh about it, but the fact is that it would have been much easier for us if we could have got the Americans to do it. We used every pressure we could, at highest level, to get the Americans to do it, but they were not willing. Those are the circumstances. I tell your Lordships frankly that this is a difficult problem, and I want to put all the considerations before you. It is not a laughing matter at all; it is a very serious matter.
It was in November, 1947, that, notwithstanding our pressure, the Americans declined to undertake this further task. In December, 1947, the Polish Government asked that von Brauchitsch and von Manstein should be delivered to them for trial. I will show your Lordships in a moment what the Treaty position is in regard to that matter. In December, 1947—the actual date was December 23—these papers came to me. Before that date I am on record in your Lordships' House as having expressed my earnest desire that these trials should come to an end. I say, quite frankly, that if when I looked through those documents I could honestly have said that there was no case of sufficient gravity to be tried, I should have been glad to do so. I could say no such thing. That memorandum, which purported to be an extract from all the documents (to make it quite clear, I had not seen the documents) plainly showed, if it was accurate, that there was a case which ought to be tried. That was the opinion which I expressed on December 23, 1947.
But, in considering whether to try or not to try, we obviously had to consider the age and state of health of these men. In January, 1948, these men were boarded by an Army Medical Board. The Army Medical Board were asked whether these proceedings (they must be trying, and must be lengthy) were likely to affect the health of these men adversely. They were asked that question with regard to each of the four men, and in each case they answered "Yes." It seemed to me then, and it seems to me now, that that was completely the wrong question to ask.

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It is obvious that in going through the strain and ordeal of a long trial the health of any man—even a young man, or a middle-aged man—is likely to be affected adversely. The right question to ask, surely, is this: "Is this man fit to stand his trial?" That is the test we should apply in this country. If a man is accused of some serious crime, we put him on his trial unless the Home Office doctors certify that he is not fit to stand his trial.
Having got that answer from the Army Medical Board, which, for reasons I have given, I thought was completely unsatisfactory, and that the wrong question had been asked, we had these men boarded in March, 1948, by the Home Office Medical Board; and they answered, except in the case of von Brauchitsch, that all these men were fit to stand their trial. If I may say so, I thought the noble Marquess's suggestion that we went on getting one medical board after another to try to get the answer we wanted was wholly unwarranted. To be quite frank, the answer I should have preferred was that they were not fit to stand their trial. But that is not the answer I received, except in the case of von Brauchitsch. If the expression "series of medical boards" was used, it was inaccurate. So far as I know, the only two medical boards were the Army Medical Board in January and the Home Office Medical Board in March; and, for the reasons I have already given, I thought we ought to have greater regard to the Home Office Medical Board decision, because I thought they had had propounded to them the right question, whereas the Army Medical Board had had propounded to them the wrong question.
In that same month of March, 1948, the Russians pressed for the deliwery to them for trial of Field-Marshal von Rundstedt and Field-Marshal von Man-stein. It was in these circumstances that the matter came before the Cabinet for a collective decision, and that decision was given in July, 1948. In July, 1948, these generals, in company with eighty other generals who were over here as prisoners of war, were returned to Germany. It is complained that they should have been told before they went that they were going to be charged. Well, they were not told. I do not myself
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think there is much grievance on that account, if, indeed, there is any. They were sent over to Germany, in conjunction with all the other generals, and in exactly the same way. At the end of July, 1948, Field-Marshal von Rundstedt and Field-Marshal von Manstein were sent to Nuremberg. They had been asked to give evidence on behalf of their subordinates, von Rogues and Woehler. It was pointed out to them that they could decline to give evidence, if they felt that to do so would incriminate themselves; and, though they reached Nuremberg, they were quite within their rights in declining, as they did, to give evidence.
Accordingly, in August, 1948, all the generals—these four and the other eighty—were demilitarised together. Some complaint has been made about that, which shows, I think, a complete misunderstanding. It has been the policy of all the Allies—and, surely, it is right—that the Wehrmacht be extirpated, root and branch, and that all prisoners of war, of whatever rank or degree, on being returned to Germany should be demilitarised. This happened to those four generals, in conjunction with the eighty other generals who went with them. That is in accordance with the rule of the Allied Control Council which, of course, overrules the German law altogether. In another place some complaint was made on the ground that a field-marshal, according to German law, always remains on active service in the German Army—as I think he does in our own Army. But the Allied Control law is a Jaw paramount, which overrides the German law, and the Wehrmacht throughout has been completely demilitarised.
In August, also, these four generals were informed in writing that they would be tried as war criminals. I quite agree that the accusation against them was set out in general terms and was not, and has not yet been, particularised. On October 27, 1948—and all these facts should be borne in mind—the judgment of the United States court was pronounced. Lieutenant-General Carl von Rogues was found guilty of the most frightful atrocities, and was sentenced to twenty years' imprisonment. Lieutenant-General Otto Woehler, who was Chief of Staff to Field-Marshal von Manstein, was sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. To bring the matter up to date, I may say

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that a party of German-speaking experts and lawyers have left for the United States in order to inspect the original documents.
To give your Lordships an indication of the sort of thing with which we are dealing, I hold in my hand what purports to be, and is, a photostat copy of an original document. The original document, if the photostat is right—and I am not pre-judging that—bears upon it the signature of Field-Marshal von Rundstedt. It is dated—and the date is very important—July 21, 1942, and it deals with the way in which commando troops should be treated. It provides that the commando troops, by which I mean the parachutists—
"if captured outside real battles, have to be turned over without delay to the nearest office of the Gestapo. It does not matter whether the prisoners are in uniform or not. These measures are to serve the purpose of bringing to a quick and definite end such operations."
Now the Hitler commando order, which figured at such great length throughout the Nuremberg Trials, was an order of October 18, 1942, and it was said that that order had been disregarded. This order, of which we had no knowledge whatever at the Nuremberg Trials, is, your Lordships will see, dated some months before the Hitler order.
At the present time I am not prepared to say—as I suppose I have to in order to prove the case—that some particular person, on some particular day, was put to death as a result of that order. It may or may not be possible to prove that that is the case. But I quote that order to your Lordships as indicative of the gravity of the matter with which we are dealing. Being handed over to the Gestapo meant that though death came ultimately, death came, when it did come, as a relief in only too many cases.
May I now tell your Lordships of one other matter, and then I will put to you the problem as I see it. I want to remind your Lordships, if I may, of what the Nuremberg Judgment said about the General Staff. I think we ought to bear these things in mind. This is what the Nuremberg Judgment said:
"They have been responsible in large measure for the miseries and sufferings that have fallen on millions of men, women and children. They have been a disgrace to the honourable profession of arms. Without their military guidance, the aggressive ambitions of Hitler and his fellow Nazis would have been
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academic and sterile. Although they were not a group falling within the words of the Charter, they were certainly a ruthless military caste. The temporary German militarism flourished briefly with its recent ally, National Socialism, as well as or better than it had in the generations of the past. Many of these men have made a mockery of the soldier's oath of obedience to military orders. When it suits their defence they say that they had to obey. When confronted with Hitler's brutal crimes, which are shown to have been within their general knowledge, they say they disobeyed. The truth is, they actively participated in all these crimes or sat silent and acquiescent, witnessing the commission of crimes on a scale larger and more shocking than the world has ever had the misfortune to know. This must be said. Where the facts warrant it, these men should be brought to trial, so that those among them who are guilty of these crimes should not escape punishment."
That is the Nuremberg Judgment, and at the time of it we had not the slightest idea that there was evidence against these men who were then, and had been for over a year, in our possession as prisoners of war. It was not until we received the memorandum from the Americans later, in August, 1947, that we learned these things.
What is our position with regard to our Treaty obligations to hand over these men? I myself have been asked in more than one place to be quite sure when we hand anybody over that there is not only a prima facie case, but a strong, case. The Treaty position is as follows. The Moscow Declaration of October, 1943, provided that war criminals should be sent to the place where their crimes were committed, without prejudice to the position of the major war criminals. At the Berlin Conference, in August, 1945, the three Governments affirmed their intention to bring these major war criminals to swift and sure justice, and regarded it as a matter of great importance that the trial of these major criminals should begin at the earliest possible date. The London Agreement of August, 1945, affirmed the Moscow declaration, and Control Council Law No. 10, Article 1, excludes any other country from participating or interfering with the operation of Law No. 10, which provides for the trial of war crimes. That is to say, if we ourselves are undertaking the trial of these men, no country is entitled to interfere. If we are not undertaking the trial of these men, with regard to whom there is a prima facie case, then we are under obligation to hand them over for trial. That is the fact.

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Now I will tell your Lordships my anxiety about this case. I do not stress unduly the obvious fact that, until quite recently and, for all I know, even at this present moment, we have been having trials of men in Germany—I myself was present at one not long ago—charged with the shooting of one of these commandos, and they have pleaded superior authority. Those trials have been going on until quite recently, if they are not still continuing. Of course, it is an obvious point, and I do not need to stress it, that if we are trying men who acted on these orders, we ought to try the men who gave the orders.
I feel that the case for trial is that we now have evidence. I have given your Lordships only one document; there are many documents. I ask your Lordships to believe it when I tell you that the memorandum submitted to me on December 23, 1947, was a memorandum which, if any of your Lordships had seen it, would have caused you to say, "If this memorandum faithfully reproduces what is in these documents, this is a most terrible story." I hope your Lordships will accept it from me when I say that. We have the documents of the Nuremberg Trials. We know what we ought to do. We all agree that merely because a man is a general he should have no special privilege and no special treatment; and we all agree that the object in having these trials at all is not to wreak vengeance on, or punish, some individual, but in order that the world may know that if such unhappy things ever happen again consequences of this sort are likely to follow. That is the object of the whole thing.
Those are the arguments for trial. Now for the arguments against trial. These men are old; Rundstedt is 73, Manstein is 61, Strauss is 69. Their health is not good; Manstein is suffering from some cataract, Strauss from a heart, and Rundstedt from incipient arterio-sclerosis. Their health, then, is not good. And there has been delay. I agree that there has been delay. The reason for that is that the department which has been handling this matter, and which has done yeoman service, has been running down. It was staffed largely with members of the Bar and they have returned to their ordinary peace-time vocations; and, deprived of their activities, the department suddenly
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had this new and immense task thrust upon them. Certainly there has been delay, and that is a legitimate and material factor to bear in mind.
But what are you going to do? Are you going to say to the Russians and the Poles (and the documents seem to show that the atrocities were largely committed in their areas), "We are not going to try these men, because we have been guilty of delay, but we decline to hand them over to you, although you have not been guilty of delay"? Are you going to hand them over? Are you going to say, in spite of the Nuremberg Judgment and in spite of the fact that we now have evidence which we did not have before, "We wash our hands of this business because there has been some months' delay"?—some months, I say: not more than that. It is quite fallacious, as I have said before, to go back to the summer of 1945 when we had absolutely nothing against these men—who were kept like any other prisoners of war. Since that time I have seen the digest of the American memorandum. That was the first intimation we had, and I do not conceal that there is still much work to be done. But the point is that an order was issued on a particular day, and consequent upon that order A, B and C were murdered on some other day. I have not the material, and there is an immense amount of work to be done in going through these documents, which are in America. Therefore I cannot pledge myself as to a precise time for a trial. I hope, subject always to the defence being given sufficient time to prepare themselves, that we shall be able to stage this trial in March—but I am not saying more than "I hope". By that I mean that maybe circumstances will make it impossible; but at any rate that is what I hope is a likely time.
There is one other point that we must consider again, and that is the health of these men. It would not be right to put a man on his trial if his doctors say he is not fit to stand trial. We do not want to get from them the answer that we want; we want to get the true answer, and we want to temper our justice with humanity. That is the problem; and I submit to your Lordships that the right thing to do here is to go on with this trial, always assuming that the health of these men is sufficiently good. And although we cannot, of course, recover

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the months that the locusts have eaten, we can at least take care that the locusts do not get a second helping.
3.46 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, everyone who was here when the noble Marquess made his speech and moved his Resolution must have been deeply concerned by the considerations which he put before the House. I am sure I correctly interpret the inner feelings of all who heard it when I say that we were all most anxious to have the opportunity of considering whether in this very difficult problem the Government's decision to prosecute was right. And we have all listened with the most intense interest to the grave and powerful speech just made by the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor. I confess that, for myself, the feeling which is uppermost in my mind at the moment is that I intensely sympathise with him in having to consider and advise on so grave and difficult a matter. I am quite certain that he has considered it and has offered his views to his colleagues (which they have accepted) with the single-minded desire to do the right thing. There is no Party question here at all; we all want to see villainy exposed, and we all want to see not merely the principles but the methods of English justice properly followed.
One or two of the smaller matters may be got out of the way at once. In the light of the noble and learned Viscount's statement, I do not think there is anything of great importance in the question of what was called a "series of medical boards." That was the phrase that was used by the Foreign Secretary in another place; and it was natural that as that was the phrase used, the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, should have put the question. But that is disposed of. I do not think any more about it. Neither is there anything in the point (which, indeed, Lord Reading did not seek to make, but which has been mentioned by the Lord Chancellor) about demilitarisation—nothing at all. I apprehend that in this matter we, at any rate, would insist upon the elementary British principle that a man has got to be tried (if he is tried) for a crime (if it be a crime) which he has committed having regard to his position at the time that it was committed. The circumstance that, by some process
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or other, he is transferred into some other status later on matters not at all.
Of course, under our law—and I am very glad that it should be so—the fact that a man wears His Majesty's uniform, and indeed is on active service, is no reason at all why he should not be tried in a civil court, in an ordinary criminal court, if indeed he has committed an ordinary crime. A soldier at Aldershot who may be under full military discipline and liable to military law is none the less amenable at Winchester Assizes if he commits a crime which is contrary to our criminal code. Therefore, there is nothing in that, and the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has swept that right away. There is really only one question—that is, the question as to whether, however it has come about, there has in fact been such an amount of delay, such inordinate delay, as makes it right on the whole, according to our tradition and outlook, to treat these charges, horrible as they are, frightful as they are, as things that are being brought to investigation too late. That is the only question, and I do most deeply and sincerely sympathise, as I think we all do, with the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack because it has been his duty to decide that most difficult question.
For my part, I should draw a very sharp distinction, which I think would be generally accepted, between two quite different classes of case. Even in our own domestic tribunals, in our own administration of criminal justice in our own country, this distinction is observed and insisted upon. The prevailing rule, the practice, the method, is to secure that justice shall be swift. It is our pride—and we are right in taking pride in it—that this country probably exhibits in its criminal courts the application of that good rule better than any other country in the world. But, of course, there is an exception which we all recognise, although it is not always clearly defined. It is this. I am speaking for the moment purely of our domestic criminal code. If it be the case that, after long years have passed, it is ascertained for the first time that a man who has hitherto been regarded as a respectable member of society did long ago commit some foul, secret crime—for instance, that he secretly poisoned his wife, or whatever it may be—the mere fact that that has

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only quite recently been discovered is no reason at all why he should not be tried, long afterwards. That is the principle upon which we all go.
I hope that I have the assent of your Lordships when I say that those are the two principles which we observe—not one, but two. Therefore, we really come back to the question: Is the interval which has taken place, however it has come about, such that it was a mistake to take the view that these prosecutions should be instituted, or is the interval excusable because the facts were only suspected later? I do not spend a moment of time in dwelling upon the horrible nature of the accusation which is contemplated. We are all absolutely at one about that. That is not the point. I am not assuming, but I am proceeding on the basis that it is believed there is material to establish those frightful facts.
There are one or two things which your Lordships still have to consider, because we shall not decide this emotionally; we shall not decide it even out of the sympathy which I think we all feel in this matter with the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor; we shall endeavour to weigh each consideration for ourselves. I was struck by a sentence of my noble and learned friend when, referring to the medical inquiries, he said that he would have liked to receive the answer that these people were not fit to stand trial. Why was that? Remembering the frightful character of the accusation which was pending, why does the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor form the view, and very frankly state the view, that for his part he was hoping that these medical experts would say: "These men are not fit for trial?" It must be—it is, of course—because he feels, as I think we all of us feel, a very great deal of anxiety in view of the time that has elapsed.
I can assure your Lordships that I do not want to take small points, for I do not feel like that at all; but there was another observation which the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor made which rather puzzled me. He told us how, when the Americans sent over here their summary of this great mass of documents which was in their possession (and, as I gather, is still in Washington at this hour) and when His Majesty's
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Government urged that the Americans then should undertake the prosecution of these men, the Americans expressed the view—I think I have the phrase rightly—that they "had tried all the war criminals against whom they had evidence." I think that I produce exactly the words that the noble and learned Viscount used—that the Americans said that they "had tried all the war criminals against whom they had evidence." Was the view this: that to make this case finally effective, to establish it, as the Lord Chancellor indicated, it would be necessary, or at any rate very important, to show that named persons had been massacred as a result of the horrible and abominable order which it is suggested these documents show had been given? If that is the view, I can understand its being said that there was not at present evidence in the hands of the Americans to do what they were asked to do. But on that view, there is not at present enough evidence in our hands either.
In fact, what happened was that the United States authorities, who had maintained a large and highly qualified team for the purpose of carrying through this business of dealing with war crimes, decided to shut down, and the United States were not prepared to go on any longer. The reason, I am afraid, is quite clear. It is not because they got weary of the work, not because they did not apprehend the documents which they had examined, but because they felt that really it was too late. I can see no other explanation, knowing as I do from the days when I was Lord Chancellor the zeal and thoroughness with which Mr. Justice Jackson and others in the earlier days organised and developed this matter which fell within their duty.
I am afraid I think that we too had come to the conclusion that it was time to stop. The Lord Chancellor in his speech just now did not state it with the precision which I believe would be justified, but I think I am right in saying that our organisation for prosecuting war crimes was being closed down on August 31 last, and that, in fact, as indeed the Lord Chancellor did indicate, the team of most competent and devoted people who had been carrying out this grave task was in course of being disbanded. Indeed, unless I misunderstand the situation, it must be that some of those experts are being recalled or new

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individuals are being recruited for the purpose of carrying the matter on as against these generals.
Before the House reaches its conclusion I think we should have those two facts in mind—that in the view of the American authorities the time had come to call a halt, notwithstanding that they knew better than anybody what were the contents of the documents in their hands; and, on the other hand, that our own authorities had come to a similar conclusion. The Judge Advocate-General until quite recently not only prepared cases which fell under our military law but, after preparing them, was responsible for conducting the trials and, after that, was responsible for reviewing the decisions—a combination of duties which I have reason to think Sir Henry MacGeagh always objected to. All that has quite recently been altered as a result of two Commissions or Committees of Inquiry conducted by two learned Judges, and henceforward the Judge Advocate-General will have nothing to do with the preparation of such cases but will reserve himself for matters other than the prosecution.
Here we are dealing with war crimes, but, as the Lord Chancellor has pointed out, this is not an international court before which these people are to be brought; it is a British court—a court inspired with our own traditions of prompt and fair justice, as prompt as can be. Whilst I, of course, accept everything which the Lord Chancellor has told us as a fact, I do not quite understand how he came to say of these documents in Washington that they were documents "to which we did not have access." I must say I should have thought—taking the view which he has thought right to take—that the first things to do, as soon as the Americans refused to do anything more, was to have those documents over; instead of which, months afterwards, we are told that there is now on the way to the United States a party of experts who can translate German, and who are going to examine this vast bundle of materials in the United States. It really is very mysterious. Though I can well believe that there are other documents which may rival in importance the one or two to which my noble friend has referred, what I find so difficult to understand is how, at this time of day, it can be stated by the Under-Secretary for War in the House of
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Commons on October 26, only a week ago:
"The explanation of the delay is the extreme complication, the enormous complexity arising from thousands of documents."
I frankly admit that I do not quite understand that.
Those are the reflections which I feel it my duty to put before the House, and I am not at all ashamed to say that, in view of the answer of the Lord Chancellor and my knowledge of his own powers in these matters, the impression created on me by the speech of the noble Marquess is very considerably modified by what has just been said. Even if I thought—and on this I have not presumed to form a view—that a mistake in judgment and decision had been made, there are things which really have to be left to the responsible and unquestionably impartial judgment of the man upon whom falls the prime responsibility. I do not see any other course which a man—certainly rot a man of my experience and qualifications, such as they are—could properly take.
I believe there is nobody in this country who attaches more importance than I do to swift justice. I feel most deeply grave doubts as to whether the carrying on of this process is going to do any good. If the Nuremberg trials and the magnificent pronouncement then made from that International Tribunal, part of which my noble friend has read, are not going to impress the world with the resolve of free peoples to expose frightful, horrible cruelties, even though they may be perpetrated in time of war, when they are against every canon of proper conduct, you are not going to do it by trying these people. On the other hand, there are running in my mind two lines of Horace which I will not presume to quote in the original to the House, but which might be roughly translated:
"Her step may halt, but seldom leaves
The guilty wretch whose track she hounds."
There are undoubtedly cases in which the justification for much delay may be found in the very peculiar circumstances of discovery. What I think we should like to know, or at any rate what we should dwell upon with great anxiety, is the question of how long all this is going to take. Just consider: here we are, in November, 1948. Down to this moment

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this documentation so industriously collected by the American authorities is still in Washington, the place which has washed its hands of it; and I find it rather difficult to see how any sort of formulated charge can be made against these people until the documents have been thoroughly examined. There is therefore a terribly heavy task in front of the prosecution. The Lord Chancellor says that he hopes to get this trial beginning by March. I had previously heard January suggested, but March, I feel sure, is as early a date as can be counted upon. As the Lord Chancellor says, you must not merely be prepared to prosecute; you must be sure that the people prosecuted have a fair chance of defending themselves. One of the first things in defending a person on a serious charge, as everyone knows, is to see the documents—"Let me learn what my own client has to say about them. Let me discover if he says there are other documents which contradict or conflict with those." Until that has been done, there cannot be an honest trial at all. Therefore, I look forward with the gravest anxiety to the yet distant date when this business will come to an end.
I will venture very respectfully to make one other comment. The Lord Chancellor's speech, of course, was one of immense power, and, for all his easy manner, it was carefully arranged in the most effective order. He kept to the end this Treaty which we signed—the Moscow Declaration. I hope that I am as much concerned to see treaties observed as any man. Indeed, one of the greatest mischiefs in the world at this time is that it is becoming almost common form, in some countries, to sign treaties without the slightest intention of observing them. That is the thing which makes covenants and contracts, even of international character, such an uncertain security. After all, the Moscow Declaration began with the assertion, if I am not mistaken, that the signatories were determined to secure that "swift and sure justice" was done on those who were found to be war criminals—it was to be swift, as well as sure, justice. It does make a difference that so much time has now elapsed.
Therefore, while my noble friend Lord Reading has rendered great service in putting this matter, as he has done,
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so clearly to the House. I cannot for a moment withhold the further expression of my own reaction—not based on sentiment but based on such hard reasoning as I am able to apply to such matters—that the Lord Chancellor, faced with a terribly difficult task, whether he was in fact right or wrong, has at any rate a very powerful argument to support him. I had come here thinking it was possible—not at all pre-judging the matter but thinking that it was possible—that there might be in this House a considerable reaction adverse to the Government. It is noteworthy (I think I am right in saying this) that in the course of two debates in the House of Commons, no Member of that House, except speakers from the Treasury Bench, has ever defended the Government decision, and criticism of it came from every quarter of the House. I am not sure that every one of the critics would have taken so confident a view if he had heard the Lord Chancellor's speech.
Here we are doing our best to serve the country without prejudice, without passion, recognising the difficulties that rest upon those who are appointed to administer the Government; and I cannot find it, I will not say in my heart but in my judgment, that I should advise that this criticism should be enforced by the vote of the House. I hope very much that this last prosecution—for heaven's sake let it be the last—will do more good than harm. But there we must, I think, put some trust in the integrity of our British tradition and the attachment to justice which is common to us all. For my part, I must leave the matter there, because, on balancing the two arguments, anxious as I am, I am not convinced that the Lord Chancellor came to the wrong conclusion.
4.18 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF TRURO: My Lords, we have listened with the deepest respect to the very weighty speech of the noble Marquess who opened this debate. We are very grateful, also, for the extremely weighty and learned utterances which have since been made and which, I am sure, have helped us so much. I think we shall be agreed that it was very desirable that this debate should take place. It has emphasised certain vitally important matters. First of all, we are all agreed that, in this connection, rank is absolutely irrelevant. It is not because

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these men are generals that we have had this hesitation. Our hesitation is based on the particular question: Has the time now come to call a halt to these trials? The debate, further, has shown how anxious we are—and we believe the country is also—that the principles of English law should be maintained scrupulously; and particularly with regard to the swiftness of justice, we are most anxious that that principle should not be forgotten. The question that still worries us is: Has the time now come to call a halt to these prosecutions; and, if the time has not come now, when will it come? It surely is very important for the recovery of Germany that it should be clear that a new start has been made.
There has been a break with the past, and it is discouraging to those who are trying so hard to turn over a new leaf if we are continually harping back to the past. The tasks before the Continent are enormous. There must be a time limit to the punishment of past faults. When is that time limit to be fixed? I am sure that this House would desire the Government to give very careful consideration to this question and, if possible, to fix more definitely a time limit, all the while considering both sides of the argument. If we feel it wise, we may leave the matter to the judgment of the authorities. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor made a most persuasive defence of the attitude taken up so far by those in authority and it may be wise for us to leave it there, underlining, as I have tried to do this afternoon, our intense desire that the principles of English justice should be scrupulously maintained and that a time limit should be set to this punishment of past crimes.
4.22 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I am loath to trespass still further on the forbearance of the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack, but I would be exceedingly grateful if he would clarify one small point for me. I was grateful to him, as were all noble Lords, for his historical exposition on this matter. I have in my notes that he told us that the Home Office medical board, in March, 1948, found that all the generals, except von Brauchitsch, were fit to take their trial. I also have it in my notes on his speech that in August, 1948, when these four generals were demilitarised, they were all four
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told that they would have to stand trial as war criminals. That is a point which seems to be a little curious. If von Brauchitsch was not fit to take his trial, it was surely a curious and somewhat inhuman act to give him official information that he would be tried. It is difficult to feel that in the case of von Brauchitsch particularly, we have acted with that humanity which is as necessary as justice. It has been alleged that when he was dying, but still conscious, there was nobody by his bedside who could speak his native language. His wife came, but by that time he was unconscious. That, at least, is a matter about which we can feel very little satisfaction.
We are grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for giving us so full an account of the matter. It must be left to every member of your Lordships' House to decide, on the presentations made by the noble Marquess and the noble and learned Viscount, what his own feelings in the matter may be. The theme as it was unfolded surprised me enormously, because I was concerned in administration during the war, and I know how very close was the liaison which we maintained with the Americans. What a tragic thing it is if that liaison, which is almost as necessary to-day as it was during actual hostilities, has broken down to such an extent that we can be holding German generals as prisoners of war and the Americans can be preparing a case against them, and yet, after two years, we do not know the nature of the case on which the Americans are working! I know not where blame should be attributed, but no member of your Lordships' House would deny that this lack of liaison has had tragic results for these prisoners, and a disturbing result for us to-day. It is a lamentable omen for the future. It would evidently be most improper to examine with any minuteness the reasons which have induced the American authorities, who I would say were plainly the right people to try these particular generals, to refuse to continue the series of war trials. I can only say that the average man in this country would have been exceedingly glad if we had found it possible to come to a similar conclusion.
4.27 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I put down this Motion in this

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particular form in order that it might be possible to take a Division upon it if, after the debate in this House, we were no better placed to form a judgment upon the whole matter than we had been as a result of previous debates in another place. I have no regret for having put down this Motion. To my mind, it still possesses some curious features, about which I confess to feeling no great happiness. I find it very difficult to accept the proposition that these four officers, three field-marshals and a colonel-general, can properly be described in the early days of their captivity as "ordinary prisoners against whom we had no evidence." Von Brauchitsch, to begin with, if my memory is right, was Commander-in-Chief in the West at the critical moment of invasion. The others held little less responsible positions. Did we really regard these people as likely to be no more guilty of war crimes than some private soldier from an outlying part of some occupied country who had been drawn unwillingly into the German Army? I find that very difficult to accept.
The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor assures me, however, that for more than two years we had no inkling, in spite of all the proceedings leading up to the Nuremberg Trial, and all the documents which were examined in the course of that Trial, that any guilt was likely to be attached to any of these people. Of course, I must accept the noble and learned Viscount's statement, but I find the process a somewhat difficult one. I do not feel very happy about the way in which this matter has been the subject of a sort of standing rally between ourselves and America, one side serving and the other returning, until we seem to be left with the proceedings. Maybe, there being no other machinery now available for trying these men, we are left with the burden of doing it. There are other matters in connection with this subject which I confess still cause me uneasiness. Not the least of them is the fact that the earliest date that the Lord Chancellor can indicate for this trial to begin is still practically another six months ahead.
But, in view of what I think is the general opinion of your Lordships, I do not propose to ask the House to divide. I think the House is left with this in mind
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—certainly I am so left. I am profoundly unhappy at the delay that has taken place, and I trust that if it does happen that by March proceedings are still not in a condition to begin, the Government will watch this matter with the greatest care, and see that this delay is not allowed to meander on unchecked into the remote future. But, against the feelings of delay, we cannot shut our minds to the seriousness of the kind of offence which the Lord Chancellor has indicated. In those circumstances, I propose to ask leave to withdraw my Motion, at the same time asking His Majesty's Government earnestly to watch the course of these proceedings, and to ensure that, so far as possible, if these men are to be tried, they shall be tried without further avoidable delay.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

GIFTS TO HOSPITALS
4.32 p.m.
LORD SALTOUNasked His Majesty's Government whether the removal of hospital collecting boxes from railway stations is not contrary to their expressed wish that private subscriptions to hospitals should continue. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in putting down the very important question which stands in my name, I am afraid I have been guilty of a mistake. It appears to me that there are four different answers which His Majesty's Government might give me, to two of which I could not take exception but on two of which I should like to make some observations. In putting the question, I am technically making a speech and, of course, I am not allowed to speak a second time on the subject. I am certainly not going to inflict upon your Lordships this afternoon a speech containing two quite different arguments, in anticipation of a possible reply by His Majesty's Government which, I hope, will be quite satisfactory. The only thing I can do in putting my question is to say that if the answer is disappointing I shall put it down another time. With those remarks, I beg leave to ask the question which stands in my name.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the reply is: No. My right honourable friends

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the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland hope, and, indeed, are confident, that private generosity, which has done so much for the hospital service in the past, will not now come to an end. But they do not consider it proper that the new governing bodies of hospitals, which are public bodies financed from public funds and are no longer dependent upon private charity, should themselves appeal for funds. Appeals made by independent voluntary organisations on behalf of the hospital service or of particular hospitals, for money to provide extras and amenities outside the ordinary running of the service, are of course a wholly different matter.
LORD SALTOUN: I am obliged to the noble Lord for his reply. It is not what I had hoped for, and perhaps your Lordships will hear from me again on this matter.

SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that His Majesty had (by Commission) revoked certain Letters Patent and had appointed the Chairman of Committees for the time being, the Lord Stanmore, the Earl of Drogheda, any person who shall have been Chairman of Committees, the Lord Denman, the Earl of Clarendon, the Viscount Hailsham, the Earl of Lucan, the Viscount Mersey, the Viscount Maugham, the Lord Temple-more, the Viscount Simon, the Viscount Addison, the Lord Hare (E. Listowel), the Viscount Jowitt, the Earl Fortescue, the Lord Ammnon, the Viscount Wimborne, the Lord Teynham, the Lord Holden, the Lord Merthyr, the Lord Blackford and the Lord Kershaw to be Speaker of the House in the absence of the Lord Chancellor: The said Commission was read.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before five o'clock.