Sitting of 18 March 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  FUEL AND POWER

    Basic Petrol Ration (Statement)
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will now make a further statement on the basic petrol ration, in view of the approach of the Easter holidays.
    Brigadier Petoasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he proposes to authorise any petrol allowance to tourists and holidaymakers this year; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary informed the House on 10th February that there could be no question of granting basic petrol for Easter. I expect to be able to make my promised statement on the general position in the week following the Easter Recess.
    Commander Noble: Can the Minister say whether he has yet received the Report of what one might call the "Black Market Committee," and also whether he will make a statement as soon as possible to enable holiday plans to be made?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have not yet received the Report of the Russell Vick Committee, but I will certainly bear in mind the need for an early statement.
    Brigadier Peto: Can the Minister say, before we go away for Easter, whether his statement is likely to be favourable or unfavourable?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am quite certain that it would be most inadvisable for me to say anything more on the subject.
    Mr. Grimston: In considering his statement, will the Minister bear in mind that with the restoration of a limited amount of holiday travel abroad and the recent films agreement, it will be felt, if nothing is done for this other form of relaxation, that there is discrimination against the motorist?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I will bear everything in mind.
    Mr. MacLeod: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is much cheaper for a family of four to go up to the Highlands of Scotland by car than by any other method?

    Taxicabs
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Fuel and Power on what basis he determines that the number of taxicabs operating in a given area is adequate to the public need.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Taxicabs are licensed by the local authority and not by the Ministry of Fuel and Power.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is it a fact that the allocation of petrol determines whether or not a private hire car shall operate? Will the right hon. Gentleman say on what basis he calculates that the public need does not make it necessary to have an extra hire car?
    Mr. Gaitskell: The Question relates to taxis and not private hire cars.
    Mr. Harrison: Will the Minister take into consideration the factor that the extent to which the 20 miles limit is evaded does affect this service?
    Mr. Gaitskell: That is an entirely different question.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Does the Minister's answer mean that if a local authority increases the number of licensed taxis in its area, the Ministry will see that the petrol allocation is made?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Generally speaking, when a local authority issues a licence to a taxicab, the petrol is granted.

    Boards (Office Premises)
    Mr. William Teelingasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what general directions he has given to officials and Boards within the control of his Ministry in regard to the purchase for office use of property suitable for housing.
    Mr. Gaitskell: None, Sir.
    Mr. Teelingasked the Minister of Fuel and Power why Tunbridge Wells has not been settled upon as the most central position for Boards working under his Ministry in the South Eastern Regional Area; whether he has considered the fact that their removal elsewhere will cause an added waste of petrol consumption; and what extra petrol allowances will have to be granted now that Prince's Hotel, Hove, is to be the Electricity Board's headquarters.
    Mr. Gaitskell: With regard to the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to a Question by the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) on 4th March. The answer to the second part of the Question is, "No"; and to the third part, "I cannot say."
    Mr. Teeling: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it would not be possible in areas such as Kent, Surrey and Sussex, instead of having Tunbridge Wells or any other place as a main centre, to use London, where they have already quite a number of offices?
    Mr. Gaitskell: As the hon. Member will probably have seen, the Electricity Board concerned have issued a statement to the Press indicating the circumstances in which they came to purchase the hotel at Hove.
    Mr. Teeling: But may I ask the right hon. Gentleman is he is not aware that in that statement they say they have given up their premises in London in order to go to Hove?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, but I do not think it would be desirable for the South Eastern Area Board to have premises in London and not in the area itself.

    Supplementary Petrol Allowances
    Mr. Sparksasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will prohibit the granting of petrol for stag and fox hunting
    2260
    purposes including the maintenance of hunting establishments.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Minister of Fuel and Power under what circumstances petrol is made available for purposes connected with stag hunting, fox hunting and other blood sports.
    Mr. Houseasked the Minister of Fuel and Power on what grounds was an allocation of petrol granted to the Master of the Hunt in regard to her use of a motor car in following the Quantock Staghounds on the 8th March this year.
    Mr. Gaitskell: On the recommendation of the responsible agricultural executive committee, regional petroleum offices grant allowances of petrol to masters of hounds for purposes connected with the hunt. As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for West Wolverhampton (Mr. H. D. Hughes) on 16th March, such an allowance was made to the Master of the Quantock Staghounds. I understand that it is used for following the hounds only to the extent that it is necessary to carry out the purposes mentioned by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Sparks: Is the Minister aware that it is totally unnecessary, if stags and foxes have to be destroyed, that they should be chased by scores of dogs—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hounds."]—and scores of spivs and drones——
    Mr. Gallacher: Eels and butterflies.
    Mr. Sparks: —across cultivated fields, leaving a great deal of damage in their wake, and will he, therefore, reconsider this matter and put an end to this wasteful expenditure of petrol?
    Mr. Greenwood: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his policy in this matter? If it is a question of the meat involved, will he make an allocation of petrol coupons to a decent, respectable butcher who would do the job much better and, if it a question of getting rid of vermin, it could be done much more effectively by one man on a bicycle?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am reluctant to become involved in a battle over blood sports. I am advised in this matter by the Ministry of Agriculture, and I propose to continue to take their advice.
    Mr. Martin Lindsay: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be wrong to use a temporary shortage of petrol as a form of censorship?
    Mr. Gaitskell indicated assent.
    Mr. Gallacher: Why not use the butcher?
    Mr. Shurmer: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it fair for large horse boxes to be moved around the country to the meets whilst working men have to lay up their cars and allow them to deteriorate?
    Mr. Gaitskell: That is an entirely different question.
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will give the reasons for the delay by the Regional Petroleum Officer at Acton in answering letters from Mr. C. E. Fox, of 72, Bork-wood Way, Orpington, particulars of which have been sent to him.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I do not appear to have received the particulars to which the hon. Member refers, but I understand that the Regional Petroleum Officer has been in communication with Mr. Fox for some time over his appeal for an increase in his supplementary allowance of petrol. I regret the delay in dealing with Mr. Fox's letters, which was due to pressure of work in the regional petroleum office.
    Sir W. Smithers: Does not the Minister realise that under State control, administration breaks down, and that the frustration and delay thus caused is one of the major impediments to national recovery?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am sure the hon. Member will agree that we must try to keep these Government staffs down in number.

    Coal-to-Oil Conversion Schemes
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the present position of coal-to-oil conversion schemes; and what is the present estimated aggregate saving of coal in relation to the amount of oil used in this connection.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In reply to the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) on 18th December last.
    2262
    Since the start of the conversion programme, fuel oil consumption has increased by 2½ million tons a year, equivalent to roughly four million tons of coal a year. Some of the additional oil is, however, being burnt in new factories and installations or arises from conversions from fuels other than coal and cannot therefore be regarded as resulting from the coal-to-oil conversion programme.
    Mr. Peter Roberts: May I ask the Minister to give an assurance to those firms which followed his predecessor's advice in putting in these appliances, that they will be able to get a supply of oil?
    Mr. Gaitskell: At the moment, as the hon. Member probably knows, we have had to ask firms to suspend further operations on conversions, but I am hopeful that we shall in due course be able to provide the oil.

    Poplar Power Station (Contracts)
    Mr. Draysonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether the civil engineering contracts at Poplar Power Station are being placed on an all-risk basis; what was the accepted tender price for the first civil engineering contract; what will be the final cost of this contract; and how much cash has already been advanced to the contractor.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The first contract for digging out the foundations was placed on an all-risk basis. After work had begun, bomb damage was revealed which involved the carrying out of work at a cost higher than the total cost of the first contract. Accordingly, in order to cover this work, an addition was made to the original contract. It would be contrary to normal practice to disclose the financial details of these contracts in a Parliamentary answer, but I understand that the only payments made have been for completed and measured work.

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Boys (Safety Instruction)
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power in what areas instruction on safety principles in junior classes for boys employed in the coalmining industry is being given; and whether it is his policy to encourage this instruction throughout the mining areas.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Under the Coal Mines (Training) General Regulations, 1945, which came into operation on 1st January, 1947, before a boy can be employed below ground in a coal mine he must be given adequate instruction in safe and efficient methods of work below ground extending over a period of at least 264 hours in all. This instruction is given at training centres operated by the National Coal Board throughout the mining areas.
    Colonel Ropner: Is the Minister satisfied that instruction of this sort is being given on the largest possible practicable scale?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir. These regulations were drawn up after the most careful consideration.

    Mechanisation (Dust)
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether increased mechanisation in the mines results in added danger of silicosis; and what steps are being taken to avoid this.
    Mr. Gaitskell: While increased mechanisation may produce increased quantities of airborne dust, in the present state of medical knowledge it is not possible to say whether the quantity or the quality of the dust is the most important factor in producing the disease, and this is one of the main aspects of the problem on which the Pneumoconiosis Research Unit is engaged. In these circumstances, the National Coal Board are adopting measures to suppress as far as possible all forms of dust in the mines. These measures include wet cutting, water infusion and spraying. In each coal division dust prevention committees, on which the Inspectors of Mines, the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers are represented, are stimulating and supervising the work.
    Mr. Shepherd: In view of the fact that there is a limited number of appliances for these purposes, is the Minister seeing that South Wales, where the ravages of the disease are much greater than elsewhere, is getting priority?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir. Far more work of this kind is being done in South Wales than anywhere else.

    Distribution and Price
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many retail, wholesale and combined wholesale and retail, coal distributors there are in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Gaitskell: It is estimated that there are in the United Kingdom approximately 24,000 retail, 200 wholesale and 450 combined wholesale and retail coal distributors. A substantial proportion of distributors whose business is mainly retail also engage in a small way in the wholesale trade.
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether a coal distributing firm, which buys direct from the colliery and sells direct to the consumer, is entitled to both wholesale and retail profits.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will state the average addition to the price of coal per ton from the time it leaves the pithead to the time it reaches the consumer; what proportion this is to the original cost at pithead; and what are the factors making up the additional cost, such as wholesaler cost, retailer cost, transport, etc.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The additions to the price of coal between the pithead and the consumer vary widely according to the distance the coal has to be transported and the local conditions of distribution, but in the case of domestic consumers are estimated to amount on the average to 27s. a ton or about 54 per cent. of the pithead price of domestic coals. These additions cover rail transport, which accounts for about 10s. a ton, the labour and other expenses of cartage to consumers in small quantities, the cost of bags, bagging, storage and administration, allowances for losses in weight and the profit margins of the wholesalers and retailers.
    Mr. Piratin: I have left my supplementary question until now in order to save time, Mr. Speaker. The question I want to ask the Minister is this: in view of the very strange answers which he has given, for example, to Question No. 15, that the wholesaler gets both wholesale and retail profit if serving retail, will the Minister immediately institute an examination of

    2265
    the question in order that the distribution of coal may be done efficiently, and also as cheaply as possible?
    Mr. Gaitskell: The reason why the wholesaler gets a margin is that he performs a wholesale function, and I see no reason at the moment for instituting such an inquiry.
    Mr. A. Edward Davies: Is not the Minister satisfied that there is too great a disparity between the cost of production at the pithead and the price when it reaches the ordinary consumer's coal cellar, and that there is great scope for an inquiry and for something to be done soon?
    Mr. Gaitskell: That is a matter of opinion, but, as I have told the House on other occasions, the National Coal Board are in touch with the distributors on this matter.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Could the Minister tell us what price he pays for coal in his office in London and how much are the distribution costs involved in that?
    Mr. Gaitskell: The Ministry of Works supply the coal in my office.
    Mr. Charles Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not very long ago we were told that coal would be much cheaper under this Government, and that it is much dearer?
    Mr. Austin: In regard to the last supplementary question, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether the fact is that, if distribution came under public ownership, great economies would be effected, and the price of coal would be reduced?

    National Coal Board (Resignations)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) whether he will exercise his powers under Section 3 (4) of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, and ascertain from the National Coal Board the reasons for the resignation by Mr. John Hunter of his appointment as production officer, North-Eastern Divisional Coal Board;
    (2) if he will issue a general direction to the National Coal Board that all resignations by members of the National
    2266
    Coal Board and Divisional Boards shall be reported to him together with the reasons, so that this information may be available for hon. Members.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The answer to both Questions is, "No, Sir."
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that much of the disquiet about the Coal Board is due to this policy of drawing an iron curtain around it? With reference to Question No. 25, can he deny that this very capable official resigned because of important differences on policy?
    Mr. Gaitskell: The question of whether or not there is public disquiet about the Coal Board is one thing, but I am quite clear that it is no part of my duties continually to investigate the reasons why people sometimes leave and sometimes come to the employment of the National Coal Board.
    Mr. Jennings: Would not the Minister agree that it is in the best interests of the people who have some feeling on this matter that some explanation should be given of what is now considered a very unsatisfactory situation?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Announcements have been made in the Press about it.
    Mr. Marlowe: But it is not a question of day to day administration. Mr. Hunter is a £10,000 a year man, is he not? And £10,000 a year men are not lost every day.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The question of Mr. Hunter's resignation is entirely one between him and the National Coal Board.
    Hon. Members: Oh.

    Domestic Consumers (Changed Registrations)
    Mr. Randallasked the Minister of Fuel and Power the reasons which can be advanced by a consumer in order to obtain the permission of the local fuel overseer to change his or her coal merchant.
    Mr. Gaitskell: A consumer has the right to change his merchant if he moves his residence, or if the business of his merchant is transferred to another owner. A change of registration is also normally permitted when there has been unsatisfactory service for which the merchant can be held responsible.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the original Order came out during the war, many people were away on active Service and did not receive the public notification of where replies could go, and since then they have been refused permission to change their suppliers because they did not see the advertisement?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am not aware of any such cases, but I will look into them if the hon. and gallant Member will give me details.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is it not a fact that quite recently a consumer was not allowed to change a supplier, even though the supplier had been convicted for giving short weight?
    Mr. Gaitskell: An hon. Member raised that question but no details were provided.

  DANGEROUS DRUGS (LOSSES AND THEFTS)
  Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many cases have occurred during the last year of dangerous drugs being lost or left by doctors, unprotected in cars or elsewhere and reported to the Metropolitan Police.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): The records of the Metropolitan Police show that four losses and 60 thefts of this nature were reported in 1947.
  Mr. Freeman: Would not this be a very good time for my right hon. Friend to suggest to doctors that they should be very careful what they do?
  Mr. Ede: Far be it from me to get involved in a controversy with doctors.
  Mr. Somerville Hastings: Does my right hon. Friend realise that doctors have been very much engrossed with political and other considerations during recent months?

  ANDERSON SHELTERS
  Mr. Shepherdasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that Anderson shelters are rusting in gardens awaiting local authority action; and why the sale of these shelters to householders has been stopped.
  Mr. Ede: Out of nearly 2½ million Anderson shelters originally issued, the large majority have already been collected by local authorities, and every possible step is being taken to expedite the collection of the remainder. As was explained in a Press notice in April of last year, the facilities for retention of shelters by householders at nominal prices were discontinued, subject to exceptions in special cases, because there was evidence that shelters were being illegally collected by unauthorised persons, and in view of the national shortage it was important to secure so far as possible that all available steel should be directed into proper channels.
  Mr. Shepherd: If that is the case, what does the Home Secretary propose to do in respect of local authorities who are not collecting shelters, which are liable to lie rusting in people's gardens?
  Mr. Ede: I am endeavouring to bring all the pressure I can to bear on them to get the shelters collected.
  Mr. Mitchison: Why should Anderson shelters rust more than Morrison shelters?

  PRISONS

    Dartmoor (Study Courses)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what lectures, courses of study and entertainments are provided for the prisoners in Dartmoor prison; what tests were applied as to the progress by the prisoners and how often; and what is done to enable the prisoners to improve and graduate from that prison to more cheerful and hopeful surroundings.
    Mr. Ede: There are 10 evening classes in various subjects each week, and some 30 men take correspondence courses. A film show is given once a month, and visits by lecturers, concert parties and bands are arranged as often as possible. Tests as to progress are appropriate only to the correspondence courses and normally form part of the course. Men allocated to Dartmoor normally serve the whole of their sentences there.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Home Secretary satisfied that the tests applied give a real

    2269
    opportunity to men earnestly seeking to get back to good citizenship, and is there an appreciable number of successes?
    Mr. Ede: I am sure everything is done to make these courses as realistic and helpful as possible, but the main scheme has not been running long enough to give a satisfactory answer to the second part of my hon. and learned Friend's supplementary question.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Has the Home Secretary any other attractions to offer to induce people to break the law?
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Home Secretary aware that, as part of these classes, prisoners are supplied with copy books for writing purposes? Will he see to it that if a prisoner writes an original book, as a result of the classes, he will get it out, and that it will not be kept, as is the case at present?
    Mr. Ede: It would all depend on what was in the book.

    Prisoners (Number and Employment)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the present prison population; how many are employed on productive work; what are the occupations followed; the numbers engaged in each case; and the hours per week spent thereon.
    Mr. Ede: The prison population, including persons detained in Borstal, on 9th March was 19,440. Exact figures as to the employment of prisoners at the present time could not be obtained without undue labour, but on 31st March, 1947, when the prison population was just over 16,000, some 10,500 were engaged in productive work. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of the occupations followed, and the numbers engaged. The number of hours spent in such work in Borstal institutions is 42 a week and in prisons varies from about 20 to 37 a week.
    Mr. Lipson: Is the Home Secretary satisfied that as many as can be usefully employed are so employed? If not, will he take steps to see that proper employment is found for as many of the prisoners as possible?
    Mr. Ede: No, I am not satisfied that all the people who could be more usefully employed are so employed, but that is largely due to the shortage of staff. If I could get more staff of a character suitable for supervision of this kind, I am quite certain that a substantial addition to this form of employment could be made.
    Following are the details:
    The occupations followed and the numbers engaged on 31st March, 1947, were as follow:

    —

    Prisons.

    Borstals.

    Manufactures.

    Bakers

    62

    19

    Basketmakers

    99

    —

    Bedmakers

    84

    15

    Bookbinders

    71

    —

    Brush and mop makers

    54

    60

    Carpenters

    165

    139

    Glovemakers

    1

    —

    Knitters and repairs

    122

    20

    Labourers

    87

    27

    Mailbag makers and repairs

    4,307

    —

    Matmakers

    291

    5

    Moulders

    15

    1

    Needleworkers and dressmakers and repairs

    358

    22

    Netmakers

    3

    —

    Pickers and sorters

    481

    146

    Printers

    26

    —

    Sackmakers and sailmakers

    69

    10

    Shoemakers and repairs

    176

    61

    Smiths and Fitters and Tinsmiths

    44

    94

    Tailors and Tailors Repairs

    401

    46

    Twine and Rope-makers

    44

    —

    Washers

    47

    —

    Weavers

    131

    —

    Woodchoppers

    105

    144

    Assemblers

    15

    —

    Bandage Strippers

    6

    —

    Tagmakers

    18

    —

    Employed by War Agriculture Committees

    520

    180

    Employed by Timber Control

    200

    8

    Employed by Private firms

    39

    27

    Farms.

    Attending cattle; cropping; reclaiming land

    186

    434

    Building.

    Bricklayers and Masons

    109

    59

    Carpenters and Joiners

    58

    28

    Concrete Moulders

    —

    9

    Electricians

    3

    6

    Labourers

    469

    234

    Painters and Glaziers

    160

    69

    Plasterers

    8

    5

    Plumbers

    40

    15

    Quarrymen

    4

    —

    Slaters

    6

    —

    Smiths and Fitters

    70

    13

    Stone Cutters

    2

    —

    White washers

    52

    1

  ALIENS ORDER (POLICE VISIT)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department for what reason, and by what authority, a police officer in plain clothes, who did not produce a search warrant, visited the private lodgings of Nguyen Van Nhan, a French subject and Vietnamese citizen and Press Representative in London of the Viet-Nam Government, on Thursday, 19th February, searched his effects, removed various private papers and letters, and threatened him with deportation; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Ede: I am informed that an interview took place in the course of police duty under the Aliens Order between this man and a police officer, but no search was made of his effects nor was any threat of deportation made. He freely proffered some papers for inspection, by the police, which were returned to him except one retained for the consideration of proceedings against him under the Aliens Order, 1920. That paper has since been returned to him.
  Mr. Driberg: Could my right hon. Friend explain why it was necessary to take such action towards this perfectly friendly alien, who is known to a number of Members of this House as a reputable person?
  Mr. Ede: Being acquainted with Members of this House is not an excuse for technical breaches of the Aliens Order.
  Mr. Driberg: Could my right hon. Friend say what the technical breach was?
  Mr. Ede: Yes, he had not notified his change of address, and he had taken employment without having obtained the permission of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
  Mr. Driberg: Unpaid employment.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: As a matter of general practice, and for the protection of the citizens, will my right hon. Friend direct police officers that when they enter houses on search warrants, they should produce their search warrants?
  Mr. Ede: If a police officer enters for the purposes of search, he should produce his warrant, if challenged. No search was conducted in this case, and the officer did not go for the purpose of a search.

  CORONER'S INQUEST (DELAY)
  Mr. Beswickasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the average length of time between notification of a death and notification of the findings of any coroner's inquiry; and what was the time taken between notification of the death and pronouncement of the coroner's findings about the death of Miss Marjorie Florence Woodman, who was killed in an accident at Ruislip on 6th August, 1947.
  Mr. Ede: During the quarter ended 31st December last, an average of four and a half days elapsed between a death notified to the coroner and the coroner's decision, including cases where the decision was not to hold an inquest. As regards the particular case referred to, the death was reported to the coroner's officer on the evening of 6th August, and the inquest was held on the afternoon of 12th August.
  Mr. Beswick: Although my right hon. Friend has said that delay in this case was unavoidable, will he make certain that the causes of that delay are removed, so that the appalling consequences in this case shall not be repeated?
  Mr. Ede: I have no responsibility for coroners. I endeavour to see that this kind of delay does not occur. This was a most unfortunate case and, I believe, a most exceptional one.

  POLICE (TRAFFIC DUTY, LONDON)
  Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why three policemen are employed all day at both Grosvenor Gate and Stanhope Gate regulating the traffic, instead of having that traffic controlled by traffic lights.
  Mr. Ede: Traffic conditions at these points are exceptionally difficult, and it has not yet been found possible to evolve a scheme of control which would obviate the use of police.
  Sir T. Moore: But surely there are more urgent and more important tasks for our very well trained and competent police to do than to man the crossings at these two gates?
  Mr. Ede: This is a particularly difficult place at which to control traffic and no other way has yet been devised.

  BROADMOOR ASYLUM EMPLOYEE (COMPENSATION CASE)
  Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will reconsider the decision of his Department to limit the payment of compensation to 55s. per week to Mr. S. Edmonds, who was so seriously injured by a criminal lunatic whilst he was employed at Broadmoor Asylum that he has now been rendered unfit to follow any employment; and whether, in such reconsideration, he will take account of the fact that Mr. Edmonds has a wife and four young children dependent upon him, and, because of the effects of his injuries, is subject to periodical collapses and has to receive frequent medical attention.
  Mr. Ede: I share the hon. Member's sympathy with Mr. Edmonds, but my action is restricted by the Workmen's Compensation Acts, which do not provide for additional compensation for such cases.
  Mr. Brown: Is it not possible, granted that the Minister has done all that he can within the limits of the Compensation Acts, for him to seek powers from this House which will enable him to give, in a case like this, a pension sufficient to enable the disabled man and his family to live?
  Mr. Ede: I have every sympathy with this case, and I would like to do something for it. I am not sure yet that I have exhausted all the possibilities that are open to me.

  PRISONERS OF WAR (REPATRIATION)
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether in the case of those married prisoners repatriated to Germany whose wives remain in this country, he will allow them to return where work is available to them which will not adversely affect British labour.
  Mr. Ede: Repatriated German ex-prisoners of war, married to British born
  2274
  women, will be allowed, in proper cases, to return here to join their wives and will be subject, so far as employment is concerned, only to such controls as are applicable to British subjects.

  "RIGHT CLUB" (NAMES, PUBLICATION)
  Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in view of the decision that members of Fascist organisations are not to he employed by the Government in confidential posts, whether he will now make public the list of members of the "Right Club," contained in the Red Book which was impounded by him when Captain Ramsay was interned.
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir.
  Mr. Platts-Mills: In view of the apparent alarm of the Government at present about people in various prominent offices whose loyalty is suspect, is it necessary to go on being so squeamish about the identity of those people whose loyalty is very much suspect, and whose public positions have been boasted about in the past?
  Mr. Ede: I am not squeamish in this matter, but I do not think it right to publish a list of names which somebody wrote in a book as people who might, in certain circumstances, be sympathetic to him. I have no grounds for believing that any proper check was ever made whether these people were, in fact, his associates.

  SENTENCE, LAMBETH (APPEAL)
  Mr. Ronald Chamberlainasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will remit the sentence of six weeks' imprisonment passed at Lambeth Police Court on 5th March on Mr. A. D. Phillips, an ex-soldier, of Lowden Road, Herne Hill, for being in possession of two German automatic pistols without a firearms licence, in view of the fact that the pistols were brought as souvenirs without any ammunition from Germany in June, 1945, and Mr. Phillips was willing to take out a licence as soon as he knew one was required.
  Mr. Ede: The time for appealing against this sentence will not expire until tonight, but I am making further inquiries, and will communicate with my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Chamberlain: While thanking the Home Secretary for his reply, may I ask if he does not consider that this was an extremely harsh, and even a savage sentence, in view of the circumstances described in the Question?
  Mr. Ede: It is not for me to comment on a sentence pronounced by the Court, especially when the time for appeal against it is still running. If there is a feeling such as my hon. Friend has indicated, the proper course would appear to be for an appeal to be entered.
  Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member to comment on the sentence of a court when that sentence is under review?
  Mr. Speaker: I was not quick enough. It was out of Order.

  WATER SUPPLIES, LONDON
  Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Minister of Health what representations he has received on the subject of London's water supplies; and whether he is satisfied that all necessary steps are being taken.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): I have received no recent representations, but have been in close contact with the Metropolitan Water Board for many months regarding their problems, and the means of overcoming them. I am satisfied that everything possible is being done to avert future shortages. The public can, however, do much in this direction by ensuring that, while water is used in a rational manner for all purposes for which it is needed, there is no waste.
  Mr. Berry: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, provided labour and materials were available, considerably more storage capacity could speedily be provided.
  Mr. Bevan: That is one of the limitations under which we are working at the present time.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Doctors (Terms of Service)
    Sir Wavell Wakefieldasked the Minister of Health if he is proposing under the National Health Scheme that medical practitioners will be entitled to a five-day week, with extra pay for overtime, Sunday work and night work, together with danger money when attending infectious diseases, for inclusion in their terms of remuneration.
    Mr. Bevan: The terms of service for general practitioners under the National Health Service are set out in the National Health Service (General Medical and Pharmaceutical Services) Regulations, 1948, which are now before Parliament.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Could not my right hon. Friend consider adding payment by results?

    Dental Service
    Mr. Somerville Hastingsasked the Minister of Health when he now expects to receive the Report of the Spens Committee on the remuneration of dental surgeons under the National Health Service Act; and whether, in view of the near approach of the appointed day and the anxiety of those concerned, he will draw the attention of the Committee to the urgency of the matter.
    Mr. Bevan: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I hope to receive this Committee's Report about the end of April. The chairman is very much alive to the urgency of the problem.
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Health whether he has yet been able to form any estimate as to what percentage of the population will be able, within the next year or so, to obtain a full and free dental service under the National Health Act; how many more dentists and dental mechanics are required before this service can be regarded as complete; and what progress has been made so far in implementing plans for the necesary increased output of skilled manpower.
    Mr. Bevan: Opinions vary and I am afraid I cannot give the figures my hon. Friend requires. But the dental schools are more than full and training facilities are being extended as circumstances permit.
    Mr. Janner: Can my right hon. Friend say what steps are being taken with regard to the training of dental mechanics and what their position will be in this matter?

    Additional Staffs
    Colonel Wheatleyasked the Minister of Health whether he can state the number of extra staff which will be required in his Department and in the various hospital regions when the Health Act, 1947, comes into force.
    Mr. Bevan: As the answer is rather long and involves figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Colonel Wheatley: Can the Minister give any indication of from where he will obtain any extra staff?
    Mr. Bevan: I think that the hon. and gallant Member might first read the reply, and then if he wishes to put a Question down he can do so.
    Following is the answer:
    Provision was made in the Estimates for my Department for the current financial year, 1947–48, for 350 extra staff to deal with additional work resulting from the National Health Service Act. For the next financial year, 1948–49, it has been found necessary to provide for a further 320. Nearly half of these additional 670 are required as a result of the provisions in the Act for superannuation benefit for those taking part in the different branches of the new health service and, of the remainder most are required for other financial work in connection with the Act.
    It is estimated that the total staff to be employed at the headquarters of the 14 regional hospital boards at the date when the Act comes into force will be about 600. Of these a large proportion will not be extra staff but will have been transferred to the service of the Boards from local authorities and other bodies.

    Voluntary Organisations (Employees)
    Mr. Symondsasked the Minister of Health if he will issue regulations to ensure that when a local health authority makes an arrangement with a voluntary organisation for the carrying out of its duties under the National Health Service Act, 1946, the pay and conditions of any full-time employees of that voluntary organisation shall be not less favourable
    2278
    than those of direct employees of the local health authority engaged on similar work.
    Mr. Bevan: I should myself like to achieve this result but the whole matter which is under consideration is not entirely my direct responsibility and I cannot make any promise.
    Mr. Symonds: Will my right hon. Friend look into the matter with particular attention to the ambulance service?
    Mr. Bevan: As I have said, I should like to achieve that result. I think that we should await what may happen and deal with it when the problem arises.
    Earl Winterton: In view of the importance of this matter and the concern which is felt among employees of these organisations, could the right hon. Gentleman publish a White Paper or make some statement when he is in a position to do so?
    Mr. Bevan: I cannot understand why concern should exist, because local welfare health authorities are entitled under the Act to employ these voluntary organisations. This is a question about the conditions under which they are employed. A White Paper from me would be of no use at all, because these are free contracting parties.
    Earl Winterton: I am sure than the right hon. Gentleman will be sympathetic towards this case. Surely, he can give some indication of his views without improper interference with the prerogative of local authorities?
    Mr. Bevan: If the noble Lord will look at my answer, he will see that I said that I should myself like to achieve the results stated in the Question.

  SOCIALISED INDUSTRIES (COSTS AND PRICES)
  Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the request of the Government to industry for the stabilisation of prices, he will give an assurance that no further increases will take place in the price of coal, gas, electricity and railway freight and passenger charges.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): The Government White Paper on Personal Incomes, Costs and Prices has been

  2279
  brought specially to the attention of the boards of socialised industries and the hon. and gallant Member can rest assured that they and the Ministers concerned will act in accordance with the principles of that Paper.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: The Prime Minister has not answered my Question. How can he possibly expect industries to do what he wants them to do if he does not set them a lead by means of the Government nationalised industries?
  The Prime Minister: As I have pointed out, this is a matter for the socialised industries and the Ministries concerned. I have not indicated that they have to take any different step.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Could the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that if any of those industries wished to decrease their prices they would be allowed to do so?
  The Prime Minister: I should have thought so. I do not know who is going to stand in their way.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consult with those of his colleagues who have just issued an order prohibiting the gas and electricity undertakings from reducing their prices?
  The Prime Minister: I am quite sure the hon. Member, who has had some experience of Ministerial office, will realise the reason why that was done.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Cotton Industry (Mule Spinners)
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Minister of Labour whether he will take steps to ensure that mule spinners put out of work as a result of their mills being re-equipped with ring spindles will be offered alternative employment in which they will not lose financially and will be able to contribute towards achieving the target laid down for the cotton textile industry.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards): Yes, Sir. While the matter is not free from difficulty, every effort will be made to offer such workers suitable alternative employment in the cotton industry.

    Iron Foundries (Conditions)
    Mr. H. D. Hughesasked the Minister of Labour how many requests have been received from iron foundries in the West Midlands for the services of the Personnel Management Branch of his Department, since the industry's attention was drawn to this service in the report of the Joint Advisory Committee.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): None, Sir.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister considering steps which will encourage the factory owners in this area to take fuller advantage of the services which his Department can now offer?
    Mr. Isaacs: That is quite another question.
    Mr. H. D. Hughesasked the Minister of Labour if he is proposing to amend the Factories (Cleanliness of Walls and Ceilings) Order, 1938, as recommended by the Joint Advisory Committee on conditions in iron foundries; if His Majesty's factory inspectors have been instructed to secure the implementation of other appropriate recommendations of that report; and what regulations have been issued to this effect.
    Mr. Isaacs: I contemplate some amendment of the Order on the lines suggested. As regards implementation of the Committee's recommendations generally, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply of the 4th February to the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith).

    Statistics, County Durham
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the number of unemployed males and females signing at the Employment Exchanges in Durham City, Crook and Spennymoor for December, 1947, January and February, 1948; and the figures for similar months ending February, 1947.
    Mr. Isaacs: As the reply includes a table of figures, I will if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Murray: Will the Minister bear in mind the fact that, while he has not given us any figures, there are two factories in the Crook area where progress is much too slow, and will he do something to have the factories completed at an early

    2281
    date, and thus use up the unemployment which we know exists in this particular area?
    Mr. Isaacs: Yes, we will use whatever influence and opportunities are open to us to get the jobs completed.

    —

    Durham.

    Crook.

    Spennymoor.

    Males.

    Females.

    Males.

    Females.

    Males.

    Females.

    December, 1947

    …

    …

    530

    60

    258

    52

    328

    37

    January, 1948

    …

    …

    549

    73

    342

    59

    375

    28

    February, 1948

    …

    …

    511

    80

    390

    39

    361

    28

    December, 1946

    …

    …

    763

    192

    483

    143

    665

    100

    January, 1947

    …

    …

    827

    174

    458

    115

    702

    144

    February, 1947

    …

    …

    940

    183

    842

    113

    696

    128

    The figures for December, 1947, and earlier dates exclude men who had been classified by interviewing panels as unsuitable for ordinary employment. This system has now ceased to operate and later figures include them. In December, 1947, they numbered 26 at Durham, 64 at Crook and 44 at Spennymoor.

  SCOTTISH UNIVERSITIES (WOMEN STUDENTS)
  Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the difficulties which handicap young women seeking to secure admission to Scottish Universities, and what steps he proposes to increase the facilities for women students.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I am aware that in Scotland, as elsewhere, the number of candidates for admission to the universities exceeds the number of places available. But the number of women students at the Scottish universities has increased since 1938–39 by 56 per cent. and I hope that it may increase still further as the universities' plans for expansion develop.
  Mr. Hughes: Having regard to the needs of the medical profession in particular, is the Minister aware of the high number of young Scots women who are being frustrated in their legitimate desire to enter that profession, and will he take steps to facilitate them?
  Mrs. Middleton: Will the Minister take steps to see that in English and Scottish
  Following is the reply:
  The table below shows the numbers of insured persons registered at the Durham, Crook and Spennymoor Employment Exchanges as unemployed at the dates in question.
  universities there is equality of opportunity for both sexes.
  Mr. Marlowe: If the numbers in the universities are to be increased, does that not strengthen the case for their representation in this House?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I should not have thought so, because those who are represented in this House are not those who happen to be at any given time in the universities.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    American Films (Dollar Exchange)
    Mr. Bramallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what forms of dollar expenditure envisaged by the Economic Survey, 1948, will now have to be curtailed owing to the proposed expenditure of dollars on American films.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Allowance was made in the Economic Survey for a greater rate of expenditure of dollars on American films than will in future take place.
    Mr. Bramall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is extremely difficult to do what every hon. Member of this House desires to do, to convey to the people that in fact the calculations made in the Economic Survey are for the very minimum expenditure of dollars necessary, when we are informed that this large expenditure of dollars is to be made on an unnecessary import of films?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I have just pointed out that we are not only not spending

    2283
    extra but we are spending less than half of what was expected in the Economic Survey.

    Travellers (Currency Restrictions)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why British subjects who have been on a visit to U.S.A. are allowed to bring only up to five pounds in English money back with them and if he will withdraw a restriction which is causing hardship and irritation.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Travellers may take only £5 in sterling notes out of this country; therefore, any sterling notes in excess of £5 brought back to this country by a returning British resident must have been acquired abroad, quite possibly irregularly. It is essential to discourage dealings in sterling notes abroad and we must therefore restrict their import into the United Kingdom. I am not aware that such restriction causes any hardship.
    Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the average citizen cannot understand why it is wrong to bring sterling into this country? In any case is £5 not too little in view of the fact that people may require more than that on arrival in this country for travel and hotel purposes?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: The position is quite simple. Outward travellers can take £5 with them so that they may have some English money in their pockets on their return. It is quite illegal to acquire additional sterling abroad and travellers should bring back with them any dollars or other foreign currency that they may have acquired.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: May I assume, from the right hon. Gentleman's reply, that any amount of Scots money may be taken?
    Mr. Lipson: Will the Financial Secretary give an assurance that where it can be proved that a comparatively small sum has not been wrongly acquired in America it will not be confiscated?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: If one only takes out £5 one cannot bring more than £5 back, unless one has acquired sterling in some irregular manner.

    Civil Service (Non-Industrial Staff)
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in the Monthly Digest of Statistics for non-industrial staff employed in the Civil Service, under the "Analysis by Departments," he will analyse the figures in future editions for "Other Departments," in view of the increase since 1st April, 1939, from 57,000 to 97,000.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: No, Sir. I do not think this necessary; fuller information is presented to the House each quarter in a detailed statement showing civil staffs employed in Departments.
    Mr. Cooper: In view of the general tendency for an increase in the Civil Service, is it not right and proper that Members of this House and the public should be kept informed of the monthly increase so that they can keep a check? Would my right hon. Friend reconsider this matter?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: There is a paper shortage and these figures cannot be further broken down in the Monthly Digest of Statistics. We provide these figures quarterly and sub-totals greater than 10,000 are given in the Digest. I think that this is fairly reasonable, and I hope that the House will be satisfied.

    Industry (Regional Organisation)
    Mr. Cooperasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he now intends to publish the pamphlet including the diagram of the organisation of regional organisation for industry, which was promised in his letter dated 22nd July, 1947.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: A draft of the booklet, including the diagram on regional organisation, has been sent to the chairman of the regional boards for industry for their comments and for the addition of information applicable only to their own regions. When these are received publication will be proceeded with.
    Mr. Cooper: Does my right hon. Friend realise that when his right hon. and learned Friend was President of the Board of Trade, he promised, in a letter dated 22nd July, 1947, that this matter would receive urgent attention at that time? Does he not consider that a delay of some

    2285
    eight months is an unconscionable departmental delay. Would he have it investigated and, if necessary, bring to account the people responsible for this very serious delay?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: One reason has been my right hon. and learned Friend's move from the Board of Trade to the Treasury. This has meant that changes have had to be made, and I admit that these have delayed the publication of this booklet.

    Foreign Holiday Travel Allowances
    Commander Nobleasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury when further details of foreign holiday travel allowances may be expected; and what arrangements will be made for those who may already be abroad when the ban is lifted.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which my right hon. and learned Friend gave to the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Janner) on 16th March. Those already abroad in a country with which travel arrangements have been made may apply in the ordinary way through their bank for the holiday allowance.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AREAS, TYNESIDE
  Mr. Frederick Willeyasked the Minister of Health when it is anticipated the Local Government Boundary Commission will make their recommendations on the Tyneside areas.
  Mr. Bevan: I would suggest that my hon. Friend should await the publication of the Report of the Local Government Boundary Commission for 1947, which will take place very shortly after Easter.

  HOUSING

    Building Materials and Labour
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are thousands of unemployed builders; that timber yards are so full that they cannot store any more; that brick yards are closing down because production is greater than the demand, particulars of
    2286
    which have been sent to him; and if he will immediately remove all restrictions and allow building firms to build houses and carry out repairs.
    Mr. Bevan: The amount of new building work which can be allowed must continue to be related to the timber which can be imported. Timber stocks now in the country are not excessive and be needed to complete work in progress or projected.
    Sir W. Smithers: When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to stop allowing political prejudice to prevent the provision of much needed houses for thousands of people all over the country?
    Mr. Bevan: What I am doing is to enable houses to be built which would not be built if far more were started than could be provided with timber.
    Mr. Baldwin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some builders have sufficient stocks in hand to build cottages, and are being refused licences?
    Mr. Bevan: If some builders have timber in respect of which they have not received any licence to build houses they are acting illegally, and if the hon. Member will bring the facts to my notice I will have them prosecuted.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: As hundreds of brickmakers in my constituency are to become unemployed in a few days, am I to explain to them that the reason is shortage of timber?
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Member should explain that the number of houses approved is strictly related to the availability of timber. If hon. Gentlemen opposite are not satisfied why have they not take advantage of Supply Votes to discuss the housing programme?
    Mr. A. Edward Davies: Will my right ho. Friend take note that 'some builders have made good progress in the building of houses, and will he give consideration to transferring some contracts from those people who have not made such good progress, so that unemployment will be avoided?
    Mr. Bevan: That is an extremely difficult operation to carry out. It means revising the contracts already entered into between local authorities and contractors,

    2287
    and may give rise to claims for compensation. We have, however, succeeded in transferring many contracts.

    Houses (Selling Price)
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of Health whether he will freeze the selling price of houses for sale with vacant possession and so prevent profits being made out of the transactions.
    Mr. Bevan: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave on 7th November last to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Central Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Mr. Wilkes), of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have read that reply, and that I consider it most unsatisfactory? In view of the outrageous profits which are now being made, and the threat of inflation and the social distress being caused, does not he now consider it time to take action to end all this?
    Mr. Bevan: The fact that action has not been taken has never been due to any reluctance to act on my part, but to the difficulty of finding what effective action one could take. As I have explained on several occasions, there is a shortage of valuers, and there is nothing to prevent all kinds of illegal arrangements being made when there is a willing seller and a willing buyer and a shortage of houses.
    Mr. Ralph Morley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I can give him instances of cases in Southampton in which in one week the price was £2,500, a fortnight later£2,750 and a fortnight after that £3,000. Cannot my right hon. Friend, in his fertile, ingenious mind, find some way of putting a stop to this racket?
    Mr. Bevan: As I have explained to the House on many occasions in the past, I have examined this question microscopically, and I can find no way of checking this abuse which cannot be easily evaded, and there is nothing more ridiculous than passing laws which one cannot carry out.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: In spite of that very convincing remark, will my right hon. Friend try again? Are we to believe that his mind has failed to find a remedy for something which is a crying scandal?
    Mr. Bevan: I should be very happy to consider any suggestion from any quarter
    2288
    of the House and have it examined, and if I can be satisfied that any scheme will be effective, I will certainly suggest to my colleagues that we should take the necessary power.

    Wooden Houses
    Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Health on what grounds his Department found the wooden houses which were exhibited at the export exhibition at Munich in autumn 1947 unsuitable, of which particulars were sent him by the President of the Board of Trade whose representative visited this exhibition.
    Mr. Bevan: From the details available it appeared that these houses did not meet the standards required for permanent houses in this country.
    Mr. Vane: Is the right hon. Gentleman convinced that these houses could not be changed to bring them up to the required standard; and, further, is he not aware that they are a great deal better than many of the temporary houses which are being built in this country, and that they would help the housing situation?
    Mr. Bevan: The programme of temporary houses in this country has now come to an end. They are better than many permanent houses in many ether countries in the world. I challenge comparison.
    Mr. Teeling: Is it not true that it would be necessary to pay for these houses with dollars, as they come from Bavaria?
    Mr. Bevan: That is another question.

    Building Operations, Offenham
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that it is nearly a year since the Ministry of Health held a public inquiry in connection with the purchase of a compulsory site at Offenham, Worcestershire, and there are still no building operations in progress, he will make a statement; and if he will expedite these building operations, with special regard to the Government's call for greater food production and the fact that Offenham is a recognised centre for cultivation in Worcestershire.
    Mr. Bevan: The amount of building which can be done is limited by the amount of labour available. Further approval to build, whether at Offenham

    2289
    or elsewhere in the district, will be considered in the light of the progress made with the schemes in hand.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of how all-important is anything to do with the Vale of Evesham, and is he not aware that 365 miserable days have passed and nothing has been done for these poor people?
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Member, as usual, monstrously exaggerates. I have already said that the local authorities have as many houses in hand as local materials and labour will enable them to build. When they have made more progress with the houses under construction, they can have permission to erect more houses.
    Mr. De la Bère: That is a scandalous and monstrous statement.

  TEMPORARY GARAGES
  Mr. Sidney Marshallasked the Minister of Health if he will issue an instruction to local authorities allowing the erection of ready-made temporary type garages, providing the cost of erection does not exceed £10, excluding cost of garage.
  Mr. Bevan: I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a circular issued this week to local authorities in which this point is dealt with.

  SCHOOL MILK SUPPLIES (HOLIDAYS)
  Mr. Symondsasked the Minister of Education if during the next school holidays he will, as an experiment, authorise school milk to be collected from the school or distributing centre and consumed at home.
  The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): For the reasons given in reply to my hon. Friend on 15th December last, I should not feel justified in authorising such an experiment.
  Mr. Symonds: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that in ensuring that a minority do not abuse this, he is depriving the very large majority of something which they could very well use?
  Mr. Tomlinson: In the suggested experiment, somebody must fetch the milk. The procedure at present is that children who require milk can go to school and drink it.
  Squadron-Leader Fleming: In cases where schools make arrangement; for children to go to school camps during the holidays, are any special arrangements made about the provision of milk?
  Mr. Tomlinson: Milk can be provided at the camp.

  INDIA (CIVIL PENSIONS)
  Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he is aware of the Indian Dominion Government's refusal to accept a recommendation of His Majesty's Government that the Pensions (Increase) Act of 1947 should apply to European alicers residing in this country and who already enjoy the limited benefits conferred t y the Pensions (Increase) Act of 1946; how many such pensioners would be affected by the Act of 1947; at precisely what cost; and whether he will allow, from British funds, the benefits of improvement in pensions granted by Parliament to pensioners of the United Kingdom Civil Services to be extended to those members of His Majesty's Government who served in India.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Gordon-Walker): Yes, Sir. A new Clause covering civil pensioners of the Government of India in this country has been inserted in the Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. These pensioners will, therefore, to the extent indicated in the Bill, get the benefit of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1947, at the expense of the United Kingdom Exchequer.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Anglo-Yugoslav Trade Negotiations
    Mr. Dribergasked the Presid2nt of the Board of Trade if he has any statement to make on the Anglo-Yugoslav Trade Agreement.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): I have still nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend on 24th February.
    Mr. Driberg: Would my right hon. Friend say whether there is any hope before Easter?
    Mr. Wilson: I hope it may be possible to conclude a limited agreement, but I must say that the Yugoslav delegation in these negotiations have really made most extraordinary demands for the shipment of goods, particularly capital equipment, which we are just not in a position to supply.

    Pottery Development Council
    Mr. A. Edward Daviesasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now announce the date of the setting-up of the Pottery Development Council; and its composition.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am not yet in a position to announce a date for the setting up of the Pottery Development Council nor its composition. Discussions with the British Pottery Manufacturers' Federation have been unavoidably delayed for a few weeks. I hope shortly to have final discussions with them as I am most anxious to see the Council established.

    Optical Prices
    Mr. Hastingsasked the President of the Board of Trade why ophthalmic optical products were not included in recent price control orders; and whether in the interest of national economy and of the large section of the public in need of visual aids, he will consider issuing orders for the control of the manufacturing and wholesale prices of such products.
    Mr. H. Wilson: These goods are controlled in price by the Prices of Goods Act, 1939, as amended. The form of price control adopted in the Miscellaneous Goods (Maximum Prices) Order, to which my hon. Friend presumably refers, is not very suitable for goods such as these which are supplied to suit individual needs. The Central Price Regulation Committee propose to discuss with the manufacturers and wholesalers the current prices of these products and, meanwhile, will arrange for any complaints of overcharging to be investigated.
    The prices of optical products supplied at present under ophthalmic benefits given by Approved Societies are already satisfactorily controlled by agreement with the manufacturers and wholesalers and the extension of this arrangement in July
    2292
    to cover such goods provided under the National Insurance Scheme is being considered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

    Gift Parcels (Cotton Thread)
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the President of the Board of Trade why a bobbin of white cotton sewing thread, costing 8½d., cannot be included in a gift parcel sent from this country to Australia; and whether he will relax the present regulations.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Cotton yarn and thread were excluded from the gift scheme in order to safeguard essential supplies for the home market. I will, however, see whether it is administratively practicable to make exceptions for small consignments.

    Household Crockery
    Mr. Shurmerasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the continuing shortage of common household crockery and the inconvenience caused to large families especially where there are children; and why common cups sold by the manufacturer at 4s. 8d. per dozen, are permitted to be retailed at 9d. and 1s. per cup.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am aware of the shortage of supplies of household crockery, at home and of the inconvenience that this shortage causes. In view, however, of the great and growing importance of pottery exports I cannot, I regret, promise any early easing of this position. The prices named by my hon. Friend seem out of line with the maximum prices provisions for earthenware cups and, if he will send me particulars of the case he has in mind, I will have it investigated.
    Mr. Shurmer: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large store in Birmingham—to give no names—are charging 1s. and 1s. 3d. for an ordinary cup, and does he think that the excess profits made on those cups are going to the Lord Woolton Fund—the right hon. Gentleman now knows where the store is?
    Mr. Wilson: I have already said that it my hon. Friend will let me have particulars of anyone who seems to be charging more than the maximum controlled price, I will be glad to look into the matter.
    Mr. Edward Davies: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that -the margin of profit

    2293
    allowed to the retailers is not disproportionate compared with the margin allowed to the producers?
    Mr. Wilson: As my hon. Friend already knows, we are looking at the whole question of margins of profit in distribution.

    Hotel Industry (American Capital)
    Mr. Gammansasked the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received from the hotel and catering industry regarding the necessity and desirability of the investment of American capital in British hotels.
    Mr. Teelingasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give details of the proposal that some part of the unexportable U.S.A. film earnings should be invested in British hotels; and whether before permitting such investment and competition he will provide better facilities to enable existing British hotels to proceed with their rehabilitation and renewal of equipment.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I have received no representations from the hotel and catering industries concerning the investment of American capital in British hotels, though I understand that certain hoteliers and hotel trade associations have made statements to the Press on the subject. I shall certainly consult the hotel interests before any final decision is taken.
    Meantime, I can only say that the possibility of using non-exportable American film earnings to assist in the development of our tourist trade was mentioned merely as one of a number of possible outlets for any sums that so become available. Any project for the employment of such sums will be subject to the approval of a control committee composed of members of His Majesty's Government and the American motion picture industry. We shall certainly see that nothing is done which will unfairly prejudice the interests of our own industries.
    Proposals for new construction or extensions would, of course, have to be considered in relation to any of the competing projects in the capital investment programme, and neither in this matter nor in the provision of supplies could there he any discrimination as between foreign owned and British owned hotels. I may
    2294
    add that my Department has already provided for the hotel industry as many facilities in the renewal of equipment as can be spared.
    Mr. Gammans: Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman made this extraordinary suggestion that we should sell our hotels for American films without taking the trouble to find out whether the hotel industry either sought or needed American capital?
    Mr. Wilson: I do not know what the hon. Member understands, but I ofould say to him, and to many of those who have made comments on this, that they should not believe that all that they read in certain sections of the Press was what was said.
    Mr. C. Williams: Referring to the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about the reconstruction of hotels, is he aware that the proprietors of some of the hotels destroyed in the war find that great difficulties are being put in their way by Government Departments?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. Their difficulties are fully realised, and we are doing what we can to help.
    Mr. Williams: As the right hon. Gentleman says he is doing what he can to help, will he help some of these hotels, instead of holding them up?
    Mr. Teeling: Is the suggestion th it the money to be spent in this country on investing in hotels will then attract further dollars, or dollar purchased goods, and so make these American purchased hotels more attractive, because, if so, it will be a definite handicap against our own hotels?
    Mr. Wilson: No. The suggestion was made that it might be possible, and no details have been worked out yet, to have a limited participation of American capital in British hotels, linked with what is already being done to attract American tourists to Britain.
    Mr. Churchill: Was not the statement to which the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) referred, in the first instance, made not in the newspapers, but from the Treasury Bench?
    Mr. Wilson: No, Sir. The statement to which the hon. Member referred was

    2295
    based on the statement which I made at a Press Conference, and of which I shall be glad to send full particulars to the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Churchill: It was made, then, not from the Treasury Bench, but by one of His Majesty's Ministers?
    Mr. Wilson: The statement which I made and that which has been quoted by the hon. Gentleman and in certain other quarters are very much at variance.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (SERVICES, MAINTENANCE)
  Mr. Churchill: May I ask the Minister of Labour a Question of which I have given him Private Notice, after ascertaining which was the Department to which I should put the Question? It is: Whether His Majesty's Government will assume to the full their responsibilities for maintaining the normal services of the House of Commons, and, indeed, of Parliament, in a condition of efficiency, and what steps they propose to take for this purpose?
  Mr. Isaacs: The Government accept the fact that they carry a special responsibility for certain buildings, including the Palace of Westminster, and, in discharge of that responsibility, the Government must take steps to maintain the services for which they are directly responsible.
  I think the House will wish to know the circumstances in which the present stoppage has occurred. A claim on behalf of Government engineering employees throughout the country made by the Trade Union Side of the Engineering Trades Joint Council for Government Industrial Establishments was heard by the Council on 8th January. At a meeting of the Council on 4th March, there was failure to agree, and a further meeting was arranged for 12th April to enable the Official Side to make inquiries with a view to other proposals. The bulk of the men at present on strike are employed by the Ministry of Works as engineering attendants and have stopped work against the advice of their unions.
  These men are Government employees, and I regret they have allowed themselves to be misled into action so clearly at variance with their duty and in defiance of the advice of their trade unions. A
  2296
  continuation of the stoppage by this small minority of the workers concerned in the claim can only hinder progress of the discussions. I hope wiser counsels will prevail, and I would urge them to resume work at once. The established joint machinery has not completed its discussions, and there will be no avoidable delay in reaching a decision.
  Mr. Churchill: The right hon. Gentleman has given a very interesting answer to the House upon the merits of the dispute. I gather from him that all the recognised machinery of trade union negotiation was in full operation, and that this was a breakaway unofficial strike, but the Question I really addressed to the right hon. Gentleman dealt rather with the responsibility of the Government for maintaining the services of the House. It is not suitable that the House of Commons and the House of Lords, where the affairs of the whole country have to be dealt with, should be deprived of what are considered to be the regular normal services of this House, and I should like to know what steps the Government propose to take to make sure that these services are resumed at the earliest moment.
  Mr. Isaacs: I will gladly deal with that point. In the very first sentence of my answer, I said that the Government must take steps. The Government will take steps, but—[Interruption.] Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer? Perhaps he would rather have a row than a settlement? The Government will take steps, but, quite obviously, it would be unwise to state what steps we shall take. I am hoping that, this statement having been made, wiser counsels will prevail amongst those who are, after all, our fellow-workers in this building, and that they will come back on the job. I think it is interesting to add that there are 12 trade unions affected with this National Joint Council, and that it is only five of these whose members have disregarded its instructions. The other unions are combining With them to get the men back, and, if we can get them back tonight or tomorrow morning, without taking the steps which we must otherwise take, I think it will be a happier settlement.
  Mr. Churchill: I need scarcely say that we wish the right hon. Gentleman to have every opportunity of settling this

  2297
  matter in the best possible way, but can we have a guarantee that the normal services of this House will be restored by Monday at the latest?
  Mr. Isaacs: Yes, Sir. I hope they can he restored earlier, but that guarantee is given because the work of Parliament, the Legislature and the Judiciary must be kept going.
  Mr. Attewell: Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that, while hon. Members dislike the loss of the services which has taken place, this House will regret any introduction of scab labour into this House?
  Mr. W. J. Brown: The Minister has told us that the claim of the unions on the staff side was heard in January. Could he tell us when that claim was put in?
  Mr. Isaacs: It was first heard in January. The information I have is that the delay in bringing it to the Council was due to delay among the unions themselves in agreeing on what terms they actually wanted to present. Therefore, it ought to be clear to the members of the unions that the long delay that has occurred since they first asked for an increase is not due to the official machinery but to their own side in delaying a decision.
  Mr. Brown: Would it be true to say that the delay, prior to January, for which we understand from the Minister the unions themselves are responsible, was of the order of something like 12 months prior to January?
  Mr. Isaacs: I really cannot say. I have not got the figures, but, in the short time at my disposal, I have made inquiries. My Department only comes in when a dispute has been notified, and none has been notified to us. There have been very long discussions between the 12 unions concerned on what should be the basis of negotiation.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the fact that, whoever is responsible, these men have been waiting on a claim for over a year would it not IA the decent thing, instead of talking about replacing them with other labour, for this House to decide that the men should he granted the moderate increase which they are demanding? Should we not give the men this moderate demand and get them back on the job?
  Mr. Isaacs: It is because the men have listened to advice such as that instead of to the advice of their own trade unions, who have arranged for a further meeting to continue these negotiations, t tat I think they would be well advised to consider their own union advice first.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the majority of these men have, in fact, given loyal service in this House for very many years, that they are not the kind of men who would be stampeded into action of this sort by the wrong kind of leadership, and, therefore, does not it look as though they have reasonable grievances which ought to have been met long ago?
  Mr. Isaacs: We accept the first part of the question without hesitation. All the men have given loyal service, but it is strange that these men, one after the other, should have taken advice, other than the urgent plea of their colleagues. The number on strike represents only a small minority of the men involved. Owing to their action, they are holding up a settlement of their comrades' claims.
  Mr. Driberg——
  Mr. Speaker: As there is a choice of the men coming back tomorrow, we had better stop these questions now.
  Mr. Driberg: I have got up each time to try to put a supplementary question——
  Mr. Speaker: F told the hon. Member that I did not call him for a supplementary, and that is that.
  Mr. Driberg: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I was the only one on my feet at a certain point.
  Mr. Speaker: Even so, that is not a reason why I should call a Member.
  Mr. Driberg: I beg to apologise. I thought that was the Rule of the House.
  Mr. Churchill: With very great respect, Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of Order. I was not quite clear on the reasons which you gave for not allowing any more questions on the subject. Was it because you did not wish any questions to be asked which might prejudice the chance of a settlement, and, if so, and with great respect, is not that rather a matter of merit than one of Order?
  Mr. Speaker: It may be a matter of merit, but I should have thought that it was really rather a matter of common sense. I was watching the questions which were being asked, and it struck me that, possibly, they were going to prejudice the chances of a settlement, rather than help it on. Therefore, with that object in mind, I hope that I have not unfairly used my discretion.
  Earl Winterton: On that point of Order. I would like, with great respect, to ask you, Mr. Speaker, to make your Ruling clearer. Surely, it is for the House to discuss the merits of the question, if it desires to do so. Of course, you may rule otherwise.
  Mr. Speaker: There being no Motion before the House, one could not, of course, discuss it. As a matter of fact, I think it is reasonable to allow the Speaker to have discretion in a rather delicate matter, and that was what was at the back of my mind. I did not want to prejudice the House in any way.
  Mr. Driberg: I was simply seeking to put a question on a point of information —strictly a point of information. Could I put such a point?
  Mr. Speaker: I think I suggested that it was wiser not to put any questions now. I hope the House will agree.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Churchill: May I ask the Leader of the House, the Lord President of the Council, whether he has any statement to make on the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir.
Monday, 22nd March.—Committee and remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund Bill. A Debate will take place on Conditions in the Police Forces until seven o'clock; afterwards, there will be a Debate on Civil Defence. There will also be consideration of Amendments to the Local Government Bill and the Cinematograph Films Bill, which are expected to be received from another place today.
Tuesday and Wednesday, 23rd and 24th March.—Further progress will be made in Committee on the Representation of the People Bill.
2300
Thursday, 25th March.—It is proposed to meet at 11 a.m. and Questions will be taken until 12 noon. Adjournment for the Easter Recess until Tuesday, 6th April.
Last week, I announced the date of the Budget and made a statement about a Debate on the Economic Survey, 1948. We hope it will be generally acceptable to take the Debate on the Economic Survey with the Budget discussions. The Debate on the Budget in Committee of Ways and Means usually occupies three days, and the Government are prepared to extend this period by two days in the special circumstances. I suggest to the House that the final arrangements for the Debate would he best left for consideration nearer the time.
Mr. Churchill: I think there are obvious inconveniences in a Debate of such a general character spread over as many as five days. It might be advantageous if there were some discussions as to what should be the understandings and arrangements best suited to give the Debate its fullest focus and grip. I gather from the Lord President that those discussions may take place through the usual channels. A five-day Debate on one vast mass of topics is a very,' unusual procedure in the House, and I had rather hoped it might be divided. But I understand that, as we shall be in Committee of Ways and Means, hon. Members will be able to speak on both aspects, and can speak more than once—not as if in the ordinary House. I would like an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that the matter can be discussed in a friendly manner in order to see what is best in the interest of the Debate and the House.
Mr. Morrison: As to whether hon. Members can speak more than once, that, of course, is a matter for the Chair. I imagine that there will be a good many hon. Members who wish to take part in the Debate. It is very difficult to segregate the two things in the course of the Debate, though it may be, on certain days, that the tendency will be to talk about some aspects, and, on other days, about other aspects. I do not think we can segregate the two. I think the right hon. Gentleman is on a point—whether the five days should be continuous—which merits consideration. It may be that we can

2301
arrange a small interruption in the middle so as to enable hon. Members to get their breath and to think about the later stages of the Debate. We shall be quite willing to talk about it.
Mr. Churchill: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.
Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew: In view of the imminence of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and of the question of increasing the allowance to the Lord High Commissioner, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, if the Bill does not get through before the General Assembly this year, he will see it is made retrospective so that the Lord High Commissioner will get the increase?
Mr. Morrison: I do not think I can enter into any commitments on that point. Hon. Members opposite seem to be manifesting a great deal of interest in this Bill. If they would persuade their Front Bench to make representations through the usual channels as to the urgency of this Bill, we would consider them, but we did not think that it was so urgent.
Mr. Warbey: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is proposed to submit the Brussels Treaty to ratification by this House, or whether, in some other way, a Debate will be arranged on this matter?
Mr. Morrison: I am not quite sure—I am not prejudicing the issue either way—whether this is a Treaty of a character which requires ratification or not. However, I can see that, in the not too distant future, it is quite likely that the Opposition will ask for a Debate on foreign affairs, and I imagine that hon. Members on this side would like to have one. But, if the House would not mind, I would rather leave it until the return of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Colonel Gomme-Dunean: With regard to the Bill on the Lord High Commissioner's emoluments, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his right hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers), who has held this office for two years and now is to hold it for a third, has held it with great dignity and with appreciation in Scotland? How is he to make his plans, which he must make, in good time if he does not know what his emoluments are to be?
Mr. Ronald Mackay: Will the Leader of the House say whether, after the Easter Recess, he will make time available for a Debate on the Motion on European union standing in my name and in the name of about 120 other hon. Members drawn from all sides of the House?
[That, in the opinion of this House, steps should now be taken in consultation with the other members of the British Commonwealth, to create in Western Europe a political union strong enough to save European democracy and the valises of Western civilisation, and a trading area large enough, with the Colonial Territories, to enable its component parts to achieve economic recovery and stability;
That for this purpose there should be an emergency policy designed to secure immediate and effective co-operation between the countries of Western Europe, and a long-term policy designed to tring into being a federation of Europe;
That the emergency policy should establish forthwith a Council of Western Europe consisting of representative of the governments of the sixteen paiticipaling countries in the European Recovery Plan, and Western Germany, to lay down the broad lines of common action; that the Council should have power to set up permanent international staffs to co-ordinate the social, economic and defence policies; that the first and most important task of the economic.staff would be to frame concrete proposals for the stabilisation of the currencies of Western Europe, for the development of trade, for the execution of the European Recovery Plan, for a comprehensive broduction plan, including agriculture and the heavy industries, and for Colonial development; that the necessary siaffs should act under the direction, and by the authority, of the Council of Western Europe, and should be in continuous session;
That the long-term policy should be to create a democratic federation of Europe, with a constitution based on the princibles of common citizenship, political freed9m, and representative government, including a charter of human rights; that such a federation should have defined powers with respect to such matters as external affairs, defence, currency, customs, and the planning of production, trade, power and transport; and that to achieve his objective, the governments of the states

2303
of Western Europe should take steps to convene, as soon as practicable, a constituent assembly composed of representatives chosen by the Parliaments of the participating states, to frame a constitution for such a federation.]
Mr. Morrison: I do not think we could very well give facilities for a Debate on that Motion. I should have thought that when there is a foreign affairs Debate—which I imagine must, and should, come after Easter—the subject dealt with in the Motion of my hon. Friend and other hon. Members can be debated in relation to the foreign affairs Debate.
Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Is not the essence of this Motion that it comes from the back benches of this House; is not this one of the most important Motions which has been signed by Members of all parties and put before the Government for many years, and would it not be of benefit to have a Debate on foreign affairs which started this way round?
Mr. Morrison: I very much doubt it. I have had this battle before about the number of names that appear on the Motion and also the argument about all parties, but I do not think I can adopt the automatic principle that if a Motion is signed by a good number of Members of all parties a Debate must automatically be given, and I very much doubt whether this is the best method of handling it. The subject, however, is another matter and I think that can be met.
Mr. Churchill: I quite see that with the momentous announcement made yesterday there will certainly have to be a Debate on foreign affairs, for which no doubt the Government will find the time whenever it is most convenient, but with regard to the Motion which is now the subject of questions and requests for time, we on this side of the House, while not committing ourselves to every detail of the phrasing of the Motion, or even to some of the points which it contains, nevertheless feel this is a matter which should be ventilated and discussed in the House. We should be very ready to facilitate its discussion in connection with Supply, if there is no other way, provided that at the same time the Government do not deny us the necessary Debate on foreign affairs which they will naturally find in their own time.
Mr. Morrison: I recognise the exact character of the helpful spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman has made these observations, but what it really comes to is that he is asking for two foreign affairs Debates—one on this Motion and one otherwise. I cannot do that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because we have not the time; there are other things to do. I think if the House debates foreign affairs after Easter, the point is adequately and properly met. As to allocation of time, whether Government time or otherwise, that can properly be discussed and can usefully be discussed through the usual channels.
Mr. Churchill: I must press the matter. I is obvious that when an announcement has been made—I am speaking on Business now—such as that made by the Prime Minister yesterday, and a great event has taken place—a solemn 50-years' alliance and so forth—it is the obvious duty of the Government, is it not, to provide an early occasion for an opportunity for its full discussion? But this is quite a separate question and this is matter which, as the hon. Gentleman has said, is put forward by Members below the Gangway, men of all parties, and which is not inimical or hostile to the Government's policy in any way. I would therefore ask that whatever the Government do about giving, as is their duty, a Debate on foreign affairs, they should also give facilities for a discussion on this matter, especially as we on our side would not object to one of the Supply days, about which we are consulted, being devoted to this Question.
Mr. Morrison: As to the nature of the days for the Debate on foreign affairs, they can be discussed through the usual channels, but it is perfectly clear that the Debate must cover and include the same ground as that covered by the Motion. I am not going to concede the right hon. Gentleman's wish that he should get so much time for himself and the Opposition and should also have time in respect of a Private Members' Motion which is of importance, signed by a good number of Members and strictly in relation to the matter we shall be discussing.
Mr. Harold Davies: In view of the great concern in the country about the Prime Minister's statement on subversive activities in the Civil Service, may I ask if my

2305
right hon. Friend will give time in this coming week to discuss a Motion on the Paper in the name of myself and 42 other Members on this side?
[That, in view of the fact that the Official Secrets Act and other measures have always in peace and war provided adequate protection against subversive activities of any person in the public service, this House regrets the statement made by the Prime Minister on the 15th March, 1948, and feels that it constitutes a departure from the principles of Democracy and Civil Liberty.]
Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend talks about "concern in the country." My own impression was that there was some degree of relief in the country in response to the Prime Minister's statement, and I am afraid I am not agreeable to giving facilities for the Motion to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
Mr. Boothby: May I ask the Lord President of the Council to bear in mind that the previous Motion mentioned goes far beyond the Treaty which was signed in Brussels yesterday and raises issues of profound importance to this country and to Western Europe as a whole? Surely the subject matter of the Motion should be of some importance in giving consideration, quite apart from the number of those who signed it? Could there be any subject of more importance?
Mr. Morrison: I do not see why these matters should not be discussed within the Debate which is intended.
Mr. Churchill: Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman is departing from the usual custom by which the official Opposition has the right to select the subject for discussion on Supply days?
Mr. Morrison: No, Sir. I am glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman talking about Supply days. I am not arguing any such thing. I say, if there is a Debate on matters arising out of discussions at Brussels and out of the international situation, it is perfectly clear that these matters dealt with in the Motion on the Paper would be in Order for discussion on that occasion.
Mr. Churchill: Would that in any way invalidate the long-established custom that the Opposition may, if they choose,
2306
ask for the discussion on a particular Supply day of a particular Motion?
Mr. Morrison: The answer to that point is absolutely categorical. I, am not questioning at all the control of the Opposition over business to be taken on days of Supply.
Mr. Gallacher: I want to ask the Lord President of the Council in the meantime —the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition might have mad?. an apology for putting me down in my seat—apart from whether there is concern in the country or relief in the country, is it not the case that this is a very serious subject with very serious consequences for some people, even though they are a minority? I am talking about the Motion regarding the Prime Minister's statement. I always understood that the Leader of the House was very deeply concerned about minorities. [Interruption.] This is a very important subject—if you listen you will hear the tramp of many million feet, and before long it may be that the laugh will be the other way around.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Is this his master's voice?
Mr. Gallacher: I want to ask the Leader of the House, is it not the case that this is a very serious matter which can have very serious consequences for the citizens of this country, and would it not be very desirable that there should be some measure of discussion on it in this House?
Mr. Morrison: It would be most unwise of the hon. Member to press this point to a discussion. I assure him he will get the worst of it.
Mr. Gallacher: No, I will not.
Mr. Morrison: As to the rights of minorities, the hon. Member is quite right: I take account of the rights of minorities, and I am a great believer in those rights. I also believe in keeping an eye on certain minorities as well.
Mr. Frank Byers: May I press the Lord President on this point? Does he not appreciate that there is general approval in the country of the fact that the Government could relieve people of their jobs for reasons of security; that there is also the question of the political test coming in, and, while agreeing with the object which the Government are trying to

2307
achieve, there is a certain amount of concern about the methods which they are adopting; and would it not be wiser, even though certain' people get the worst of the argument, to allow the House of Commons to discuss the method?
Mr. Morrison: That, of course, is quite a limited point; that narrows the issue, and I should have thought it would be useful, if it were in Order, and if Mr. Speaker permitted, to have that subject discussed on the Adjournment Motion next Thursday.
Mr. Carmichael: Arising out of the statement on Business for next week and that immediately following the Recess, do the Government intend to introduce legislation at an early date to stop the conduct of property owners in Scotland in their treatment of small shopkeepers? The Government have already given some indications along those lines, and I should like more specific information on that point.
Mr. Morrison: I am afraid that I cannot give an undertaking about legislation. With regard to my hon. Friend's allegations, I know that there are apprehensions, and that there has been certain experience in Scotland about it; and I earnestly trust that property owners will have consideration for small shopkeepers, and will not provoke a situation. I am afraid that I cannot promise to undertake early legislation——
Mr. Piratin: That is a Socialist speaking.
Mr. Morrison: I would not take the hon. Member as an authority on Socialism. My hon. Friend knows that that matter is under consideration by the Secretary of State, and we are examining what can be done. It is just possible that something may be done apart from legislation. I could not promise early legislation on that matter.
Major Tufton Beamish: Reverting to the Prime Minister's statement on Monday, it raises issues of the gravest and most far-reaching constitutional importance, and if the arrangements that have been set in motion are to be fully acceptable to British justice they should not only be just, but should appear to be just. Is it not, therefore, most important
2308
that one day should be set aside, in Government time, for a Debate on this most important constitutional matter?
Mr. Morrison: The Government have made a pronouncement and the issue is clear. I do not think there is much room for material confusion upon the issue. If there were adequate feeling in the House that the Government were taking an absolutely improper and unconstitutional course, the right action would be to put down a Motion of Censure. I gather that the only thing about which some hon. Members are anxious is for some further elucidation—which is fair—and I should have thought that that aspect could have been dealt with adequately, were it permitted, on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Mr. Driberg: My right hon. Friend suggests dealing with this subject on the Easter Adjournment Motion, but will he bear in mind that this is an extremely important subject, which deserves a whole day, and that the Easter Adjournment is customarily allocated by Mr. Speaker to a number of different back bench Members who have been unfortunate in the Ballot?
Mr. Morrison: If I may say so, I think that my hon. Friend is exaggerating the importance of the matter.
Mr. Henry Strauss: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the questions which hon. Members in all quarters of the House may wish to raise may go beyond elucidation; and that this House always concerns itself very much with all questions of individual liberty? Without wishing in any way to suggest any criticism of the Prime Minister's statement, may I ask whether the Lord President does not realise that it is a subject which goes beyond what can be raised merely as one topic in the Adjournment Debate, and that he will be meeting the wishes of all sections of the House if he is more sympathetic to a demand that this House shall, at some not too distant date, have a day to discuss the subject?
Mr. Morrison: Then the hon. and learned Member should make representations to his own Front Bench with a view to a Supply day being taken for this purpose [HON. MEMBERS: "You are the Government."] Either the Government are being

2309
challenged or they are not; I am not clear. If that were done, and it at the end of the day the House were not satisfied with the Government's defence or exposition, it would be proper and possible for a vote to be taken. That is the solution of that.
Mr. Churchill: In the main, as has been stated, we are in support of the Measure which the Government, with great reluctance, have felt it their duty to take in the interests of public security. Nevertheless, as Members of the House of Commons we must recognise that it raises large issues, which probably could be clarified as a result of Parliamentary discussion.
Mr. Morrison: If the Opposition Front Bench wish to make representations they can.
Mr. Scollan: On a point of Order. Is it not possible to get Scottish business' introduced into this House, or any discussion on whether imperative and urgent business, which is awaiting immediate action, can be introduced into the House?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order, and not a matter which I can answer. Certainly, it does not seem to be relevant to the Business for next week.
Mr. Scollan: It is very relevant for all Scotland, and I want to know if we can raise it here.
Mr. S. Silverman: When my right hon. Friend says that some people exaggerate the importance of this statement, is he not overlooking the fact that on Monday the Prime Minister took the opportunity of making a special statement at the end of Questions, and that, therefore, he evidently regarded it, as most of us do, as a very important constitutional change? That being so, ought not the House to have the right to a full Debate, with the opportunity of a Division, if it wants it, upon the issue?
Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend is an experienced Parliamentarian, and I am bound to say that I am surprised at the doctrine he is advancing. He is now advancing the doctrine that if the Prime Minister makes a statement at the end of Questions a Debate almost automatically follows.
Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: The Leader of the House has very properly said that
2310
if there were sufficient feeling in all quarters of the House that there ought to be a Debate, then time might be found. Is it not obvious from the number of questions asked from all parts of the House that there is a feeling that there ought to be a Debate? I do not think that anybody wants to prejudge the Government's decision, but everybody wants a discussion. Indeed, hon. Members of the Lord President's own party have put down a Motion on it. Therefore, should not the Government find time for a Debate?
Mr. Morrison: I fully understand—I emphasise, fully understand—the hon. Member. I have made two proposals to the House: one, that the subject could be debated on the Adjournment for the Easter Recess—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too short."]—and the other is that it can be debated on a Supply day, if a full day is wanted. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Certainly; that is what Supply days are for. This subject is eminently a Supply day subject. If the Opposition Front Bench wish in any way to associate themselves with the critics of the Government, or with people who have apprehensions about the Government, their course is clear. The hon. Member should make representations to his leaders.
Mr. Churchill: Let me make it clear that we have no intention of asking that one of the Supply days should be devoted to a discussion of this matter. Important executive action has been taken, and an announcement has been made by the Government. This has raised a great deal of discussion, and it is for the Government to find proper and adequate time for the matter to be debated.
Mr. James Hudson: Will my right hon. Friend again consider the very serious opposition from his own benches, not merely on the issue of public security, but on the whole development of interference with private rights and with the rights of consciences of individuals, which will be much strained by the action the Government are now taking.
Mr. Morrison: We are all capable of judging how much apprehension there is, and I think I am as good a judge as my hon. Friend of what proportion of Labour Members is really worried about this.
Mr. W. J. Brown: As one who approves the general purposes of the Government in this connection, may I put to the Lord President two points? First of all, is it not desirable that the House of Commons should pronounce its approval or disapproval of the statement which was made to us—I should have thought, in the interests of the public service itself, a clear verdict of the House is desirable. Secondly, is it not desirable that we should have the opportunity of voicing our suggestions about the machinery and methods to give effect to what I believe the Government have in mind? In the light of these two considerations, cannot the Government provide us with time for a Debate?
Mr. Morrison: I really think we are in danger of repeating ourselves. I cannot say anything more at this stage.
Mr. Warbey: As this involves the protection of the liberty of the individual against the possible abuse of unprecedented powers by the Executive, which is a matter that private Members must be particularly concerned about, is my right hon. Friend aware that it should not be left to the Opposition whether or not it is taken up, but all private Members should have an opportunity to voice their opinions?
Mr. Morrison: I want to avoid a chaotic situation arising. I want to know whether the Government are challenged. This is not a vast new constitutional issue. The State already has the right to decide whom it shall employ and whom it shall not employ. It is merely a matter of reasonable precautions in defence of the security of the State. That is the issue which is involved.
Sir Arthur Salter: It there is to be a Debate on this subject, surely it is desirable that it should be under conditions which will ensure a fair reflection of this House? Are there not certain disadvantages in having this discussed just as one of the subjects for debate on Thursday? And is it really fair to suggest that this subject should be selected for discussion by the Opposition on a Supply day, when it is perfectly obvious that if there is strong criticism of the Government it does not, on the whole, come from the Opposition?
Mr. Harold Davies: Are not all the Adjournment Debates for Thursday
2312
already allocated? Irrespective of the machinery of this House, this is a vital issue affecting the liberty of the individual. [Laughter.] I am not concerned with that laughter. Your faces may be leathered by the suns of political expediency, but mine is not. I beg the Leader of the House to give an opportunity to Members to discuss this matter, because on all sides, irrespective of political differences, we desire the country to see the trend of opinion in this House, and an organisation representing 5,000 scientists has already said that it disapproves of this approach to the problem.
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: The right hon. Gentleman has suggested that this could be debated on the Adjournment on Thursday. Does he mean that the whole day should be given up to this subject to the exclusion of other matters, or that these vast constitutional matters should be discussed for only two hours?
Mr. Morrison: I must refer hon. Members opposite to their own Front Bench. If the House debates this for the purpose of elucidating information, I should have thought it could have been taken as one of the subjects for Thursday. If there is apprehension in the House on this, a Supply day should be taken so that a vote can be given, and then we shall know where everyone stands about the security of the State.
Mr. Maclay: Will the Leader of the House study very carefully the remarks which have been made in the course of these questions, because if he does, he will see that a Debate is really necessary? The real issue about which we are concerned is not who are employed by the Government, but whether political party allegiances are automatically involved. If the Government have seen fit to take this action, surely they should explain what are their reasons, because if they are of this gravity it might justify even stronger action being taken.
Mr. Scollan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are hundreds of small shopkeepers in Scotland who have now got only one week either to buy or lose their businesses? Is he aware that if no immediate action is taken these people will be thrown out by the financial wolves? Therefore, we require immediate legislation to deal with the position.
Mr. Morrison: I understand my hon. Friend's feelings on this matter, and neither I nor the Secretary of State for Scotland is unsympathetic about it. We really cannot pass Bills of this character in one week.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great, anxiety about these evictions in Scotland? Is he aware that large numbers of landlords are seeking possession of property solely for the purpose of reselling it at enhanced prices? Will he not give consideration to legislation on this subject?
Mr. Morrison: I have already said that the Secretary of State for Scotland has the matter under consideration.
Major Beamish: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that unless the Government set aside a day for a Debate on the most important constitutional question, referred to earlier, it will be very hard indeed to avoid the conclusion that the Socialist Party have something to hide?
Mr. Speaker: We cannot go over and over this ground. We have already spent half an hour discussing this.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

  CONSOLIDATION BILLS
  So much of the Lords Message as relates to the place and time of meeting of the Joint Committee considered.
  Committee appointed by this House to meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]
  Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."—[Mr. Isaacs.]

  MANPOWER
  4.18 p.m.
  Mr. McCorquodale: I should like to express my great pleasure in having the privilege again of addressing the House. This is what I might describe as the first speech I have made in my second political marriage. I enjoyed my association with the West Riding, but very much regret that my constituency preferred the charms of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade. I now find myself in association with the very famous constituency of Epsom, a name which is probably better known throughout the world than the name of any other constituency. I have no doubt that they will be more constant in their allegiance than my last constituency, and I am proud to represent Epsom here. I am very appreciative of the welcome which you, Mr. Speaker, and old colleagues of mine in all parts of the House have given to me on my return to this House.
  Many hon. Members, recollecting my recent contact with the electorate, have asked me what the country is thinking about Parliament, and what the country thinks about us. I find that question rather difficult to answer. I believe that those hon. Members who know their own minds and put their country first all the time are becoming more and more acceptable to the electorate. Those right hon. and hon. Members who appear to shillyshally and fall back in times of difficulty on party slogans and partisan statements are increasingly losing the confidence, and, indeed, the patience of the electors. I am sure that the hon. Member for North Croydon (Mr. Harris) will agree with me that the electorate, and especially the women part of it, are rapidly and increasingly becoming more and more dissatisfied with the present Government. [HON. MEMBERS: What about Paisley?") I believe also that he would agree with me that on any political platform a call for unity and

  2315
  courageous leadership finds a ready and notable response from the audience. I will, therefore, attempt to be constructive in any criticisms which I have to offer to the Government, and not merely critical. There may have been some dispute with the Lord President about the importance of the subject we have just been discussing, but I believe there will be no dispute in the House about the importance of the manpower problem. Indeed our manpower and our womenpower is the one valuable asset we have in this country.
  I find, if I may say so, Mr. Speaker, great pleasure in debating with my old friend and colleague of many years standing in the printing industry—the Minister of Labour. I would say to him that he has been very much missed by both sides of our joint industrial council in their deliberations. Not the least of the blessings that will come from the change of Government at the next Election will be that the right hon. Member will be able to return to his duties in the printing trade where he is so valuable and has been so much missed. He will get a great welcome there from all the members.
  I would like to discuss, first, some aspects of the Ministry of Labour and its activities and, after comment, ask a few questions on the manpower section and employment policy of the White Paper that has been placed before us. I believe that it is time that the Ministry of Labour faced up to the problem of changing its name. After all "labour" does have a slightly party political flavour in the country. Some time ago, we changed the names of the labour exchanges to employment exchanges or offices, and I believe that a Ministry of Employment, or a Ministry of Manpower, would be better understood throughout the country and would avoid confusion or any unfortunate happenings such as those of which I found quite a lot during the time I was associated with the Ministry of Labour. As a Conservative, I was often asked how I managed to be at the Ministry of Labour because of the party to which I belong. I remember the wife of a porter at a block of flats being highly indignant at my being what she called a "Labour" Minister, and she could not understand it at all when I tried to persuade her that I was not. I think that we should change
  2316
  the name to Employment Ministry, and that the Ministry of Employment and National Service would be a very suitable name.
  I maintain that the success or failure of the Minister's work should be judged by his ability to keep party politics out of his Ministry and his Ministry out of party politics. His chief duties are in the sphere of industrial relations on the one side and the operation of the employment offices on the other. Success in both these spheres depends on the confidence of the country, and especially of the industrial sections of the country, in the Ministry's fairness, lack of bias, and impartiality. I think that except for one notable issue to which I will come in a minute, the Minister has been, on the whole, pretty successful in this matter, and I congratulate him. So far as industrial relations are concerned, I believe that the Minister, in general, has done extremely well, as the figures of industrial disputes show. I do not propose to refer to the temperature of the Chamber today or the dispute which it has caused. There are two points of detail which I would like to raise for the Minister's consideration.
  There have lately been one or two rather disturbing decisions by the National Arbitration Tribunal; decisions which seems to be rather out of harmony with Government policy at the present time. I am not criticizing the National Arbitration Tribunal or its excellent personnel. I believe that the fault, if there is a fault, lies in its orders, in the things that it is allowed to consider, and in the wideness of the judgments which it is allowed to make. I believe that the terms of reference to the National Arbitration Tribunal in the matters which they are allowed to take into consideration in judging disputes between the two sides of industry might well be looked at again for the benefit of all.
  There is another point—a theory of my own—which, with some diffidence, I would like to lay before the House for their consideration. The House will, remember that during the war the shops stewards and shop stewards' movement gained a considerable amount of authority and the permanent officials of the union declined in authority at the same time. There has been, in my judgment, a great deal of nonsense talked about shop stewards in the country. Some people seem to think

  2317
  that all shop stewards are Communists, or evil people, or something of that sort. Of course, that is not so. But, in general, observers of the industrial scene think that the decline in authority and influence of the trade union officials because of the rise of the shop stewards' movement is a retrograde movement and not a good thing for industry.
  One of the reasons why, in my judgment, the shop stewards increased their prestige was the wide introduction of piece-work, and the fact that the shop stewards, in the main, were the people who negotiated on behalf of the workers their piece-rates and, therefore, their earnings. Previously it had been the trade union officials who negotiated their rates of pay; and I suggest that it would be worth while the two sides of industry considering whether the organisations of the employers and trade unions could not set up some new machinery so as to work out piece-rates throughout the industry as well as in individual houses, and not leave the matter in the hands of the shop steward, the father of the chapel, or whatever we like to call him. I believe that this might have a salutary effect, because I think that everyone who considers these things wishes to see that the authority of the trade union and the union official who has to bear the responsibility is upheld. If we did that I feel sure that we would not have so many unofficial strikes.
  With regard to the work of the employment exchanges, I would say this: in the war, owing to the operation of the National Service Act, the Ministry of Labour gained great prestige, but because of that there was a danger. The employment exchanges came to be regarded by ordinary folk as places where a man or a woman was caught up and placed into war work. I think that we must restore, so far as we can, the confidence of ordinary men and women in the employment exchanges in peace time as being places to help them find jobs and not to compel them to go to jobs to which they do not want to go. It is the function of the Ministry of Labour organisation throughout the country to aid everybody in Britain to get, so far as is possible, a suitable job, or even better still, the offer of several suitable jobs. I do not believe it is the function of the Ministry of Labour to compel anyone.
  2318
  Indeed, I believe that if we do compel, we lose the confidence of the population in the Ministry of Labour.
  I do not propose this afternoon to go into all the powerful moral arguments for or against the Registration for Employment Order, or the direction of lat our, which were used in the Debates last November. I believe there is evidence to show that the confidence in the Ministry, since these powers were taken again, is being undermined, to a certain extent at any rate. The results have been almost negligible. "The Times" in its leader today says:
  "The latest labour returns strongly suggest that the' new labour controls' are not yielding the quick and substantial results which could be their only justification."
  "The Times," I think, has understated the case. It would appear from the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has given to us that these labour controls lave hardly helped the situation a bit. The results have been almost negligible. As for the recent orders with regarc to spivs, drones and butterflies, as they are called, all I can say is that I do not believe the managements want these gentlemen in their industries, and I do not believe that the trade unions want these people in heir ranks. I cannot believe that the right hon. Gentleman in another sphere would advise N.A.T.S.O.P.A. to open up a special branch to enrol as trade unionists the gentlemen described under those terms.
  We ought also to remember, when we are talking about direction of labour, that while it is possible to take powers to direct men or women to go to a job, it is not possible to make them work at that job when they get there, without using a whip behind them. Therefore, I can only assume that the whole purpose of the Registration for Employment Order for spivs, drones, butterflies and the rest, was psychological. We had another case the other day which was psychological. We were told by the Minister of Food that the fact that not more than 99 people were allowed to sit down together to a meal was justified because it was psychological. He finally found that the psychology was not working quite as he expected, and has had the good sense to withdraw that Order. I would seriously say to the right hon. Gentleman that he should consider the action of his colleague as to whether

  2319
  he will not get more out of industry by the voluntary method rather than by compelling them. I am reinforced in my remarks by what the Government have said in their White Paper on employment policy. I read from page 59, section 16 on "Lessons for the Future":
  "Perhaps the outstanding lesson of the experiment hitherto made in democratic planning in this country apart from the limitations imposed by dependence on foreign trade, is the importance of the voluntary co-operation of the individual with the plan set by the central authorities. In the matter of industrial productivity, for instance, the Government can encourage, but it cannot compel."
  Then it goes on to say:
  "Much will depend, therefore, on the individual's voluntary response."
  I think those are excellent sentiments, and I entirely agree. I would ask his colleagues in the Government to draw them to the attention of the Minister of Labour if they have not already done so.
  As we were told the other day by the right hon. Gentleman, these controls have been applied very fairly and tenderly. The officials of the Ministry of Labour up and down the country are a very fine body of men, and we would not expect anything different, but none the less the Minister will fail, and the Ministry will fail, in the task of regaining the complete confidence of the men and women in this country unless their motto remains to persuade, and not to compel or to persuade by threats. I would hazard a guess as to why this Registration for Employment Order and the others were introduced. From his previous speeches we know that the right hon. Gentleman does not think that they are going to do much good. I am not going to re-quote the speech that he made last year on the subject, but quite obviously he does not think they are going to be of very much help to the industrial world.
  Furthermore, I am quite sure that the employers on his Advisory Council would not have told him that these spivs, drones and the others would be of the slightest use for their industrial production. I cannot believe, knowing his principal officials, as I do, to be very practical men that they would advise in favour of recruiting these people to the industrial world. From the constantly reiterated statements of high functionaries of the trade union world that they were against
  2320
  compulsion, I cannot believe that they were very enthusiastic about it. If, therefore, the Minister, the employers, the Ministry's officials and the trade unionists are not in favour of it, I can only suggest that it must be the vocal Left Wing colleagues of the Minister, who wish to extend their power over the lives of the citizens of this country, who have demanded this course, and I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will not stand up to them a little more firmly.
  I was proposing to raise the question of disabled persons, but there was an Adjournment Debate on it on Monday night. I am sorry I was not able to attend owing to a previous engagement—which was not with "Annie Get Your Gun," either.
  Mr. Randall: There was only one Tory on the Front Bench.
  Mr. McCorquodale: I was speaking in the country and did not know about it till too late. The Minister made a very interesting statement on that occasion which I read with close attention. I am sure that the House, on reading it, will have been grateful to him and I am sure we all wish him well in pushing forward with this great Act, which is closely associated with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Education. There is one point I wish to raise in regard to his speech. He said:
  "In fact, practically half of the total of unemployed disabled persons are in three regions—Wales, the North-west and London. London, strangely enough, has a big proportion. Unfortunately the Act does not permit us to have a regional quota. We must have a general quota to cover the country as a whole.—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 15th March, 1948; Vol. 434, c. 1847.]
  If that is a handicap, knowing that the House is anxious to see that these disabled persons get proper and full employment so far as they are able, I am quite sure that no obstacle will be placed in his way if the Minister wishes to make some small alteration to that Act.
  I would like to know something about how the juvenile advisory services are working. Juveniles are coming out again at 15 and it will be of the utmost importance to see that they have the right advice about what careers they are going to choose. The position is not really satisfactory. The Ministry of Labour is responsible for the advice to the juveniles over about half of the country, and the local education authorities are respon-

  2321
  sible for the advice in the other half. It is one of those things which have grown up in this country and I think it is time it was altered. I believe that the Ministry of Labour should be the authority responsible for directing the juvenile advisory services throughout the whole country, because the Ministry of Labour will be responsible for them during their working lives as they pass out of the sphere of the care of the education authorities.
  I believe that the Minister has an exceptional opportunity, at the moment, to carry through this reform. I cannot believe that his colleague and right hon. Friend, the Minister of Education, who was with us at the Ministry of Labour, will have changed his opinion so drastically and completely by moving to another Department. So, I would ask him, if he has not already done so, to start discussions with his right hon. Friend to see whether he cannot take over the operation of these advisory services. I am pressing this rather because I am told—I have no proof—that, fairly widely, where the local authorities are the responsible officers, they tend to advise the black-coated occupations in preference to crafts and occupations of the hands. There is no room in the black-coated world for everybody; somebody must do the rest of the work, and a more balanced view must be taken by the advisory services than to try and move everybody who can add up a column of figures, or write well, into a clerk's job, when many of them would probably be much happier and better occupied as craftsmen.
  I would like to know how the Appointments Branch are getting on? They have a difficult job. It was suggested to me the other day that better results would be obtained from the Appointments Branch if they were paid for every man they were able to place. That might be so, but I think it would tax the ingenuity of the Ministry's accounting officers to work out a system of proper payment. Nevertheless, I think opportunities are being lost. The other day a constituent of mine, aged 51, found himself out of work through rationalisation and mechanisation. He had a very good record, and received a certain amount of compensation. He was not a qualified accountant; he was an office accountant. He had been on the Ministry of Labour Appointments Branch books for a little time, and the Minister kindly offered to press forward
  2322
  his case when I wrote to him. When my constituent came to me I wrote two friends of mine who are chartered accountants, and asked them whether they knew of any client who might be looking for a man of this sort. They both said that they thought they could find a job themselves for him, as they were short of this type of office worker. I merely give that as an illustration to show that the close contacts which the Appointments Branch have with employers may be rather slacking off.
  There is another point, not relevant to what I have been saying, but which is very much in the news at present. I am one of those who do not believe, never have believed, and have said so many times publicly, that industrial output is helped in the slightest degree by stopping evening sport in mid-week. I do not believe that the British working man likes to be subjected to that sort of thing, or that it encourages him to work Letter. I believe that representations are being made to the Chancellor, whom we see here this afternoon, and I hope he will listen to them with sympathy. I am all in favour of encouraging output to the highest degree, but I do not believe that it can be done by vexatious controls, which can have no effect. I cannot see why it should be wrong for a man to go to a dog race if he wishes, when it is right for him to go to a cinema and see American films.
  The Minister has a fine machine and an enthusiastic staff, and I believe that until he went in for the calamitous futility of conscription of labour—if he does not mind me saying that—he was not doing so badly. If he would drop that, I would not be critical of his sojourn at the Nlinistry. The right hon. Gentleman was left with a demobilisation plan—and if the House will forgive a personal reference, for I had a little hand in preparing that age and service plan—which he has operated with remarkable skill and efficiency. When the history of these times comes to be written, the fact that we have been able to demobilise such a large number of men, with practically no criticism as to fairness, as between man and man, has been a great thing, and I congratulate the Ministry on the way they have carried it out.
  In concluding this part of my speech, I would only say this: if the right hon.

  2323
  Gentleman stands up to his colleagues for his Department, because of his own industrial knowledge, he will do well. He should remember at all times that not many of his colleagues in the Cabinet have very much practical knowledge of industrial affairs such as he has; most of their knowledge has been collected from hearsay. I urge him never to give in to the theoretical doctrinaires in his own Cabinet, who are, I believe, the curse of industry and of this country. If he does that, he will do well. [An HON. MEMBER: What about the Opposition?"] Unfortunately, the Opposition are not now governing the country; if they were, there would be remarkable benefits and changes.
  Mention of doctrinaires brings me to the few remarks I wish to make on the Government's Economic Survey for 1948.
  "The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men Gang aft a-gley"
  as our Scottish friends say, and if we compare the 1948 Paper with the Economic Survey for 1947, we find that practically all the schemes and plans enumerated in 1947 have not so far worked out. The leading article in "The Times" this morning enumerates all the targets which were set out in 1947, and shows how none have been achieved so far this year. When manpower was desired to be increased rapidly it increased only slowly; when it was desired to be increased slowly, it increased rapidly. The result does not bear scrutiny. As the Vote Office have been very practical in this matter, and have a supply of the 1947 White Paper as well as the 1948 Paper, I hope that Members who have not done so will refresh themselves by getting a copy of each and comparing them. For example, paragraph 136 of the 1947 White Paper states:
  "Action which serves to reduce output per man year in any industry is directly endangering the attainment of these objectives. The nation cannot afford shorter hours of work unless these can be shown to increase output per man year. Greater leisure is a very desirable thing but it is not at the moment a prime essential like imported food. It is not as important as coal or clothing or housing."
  Paragraph 194 of the 1948 White Paper says, under the sub-heading of "Hours":
  "Changes during 1947 gave about 5,000,000 workpeople an average reduction of 3½ hours in the standard working week."
  2324
  So, five million people out of our 20 million working population have not followed the advice of 1947.
  I have read and re-read what "The Times" industrial correspondent calls—I think with complete justification—this "puzzling White Paper." There appears to be in it one phrase of overriding importance, which gravely disturbs me. I want to know what it means, and I would like an authoritative comment by the Government about it. Except in textiles, and in coal and agriculture—and I reckon they are about 12½ per cent. of our industrial population—we read:
  "labour is not at present, and is unlikely to be, in 1948, a limiting factor in economic activity as a whole."
  The inference that we are being expected to draw is that materials will be the limiting factor during this year.
  On all the hoardings throughout the country are great posters at the present time saying: "10 per cent. more. "It is a message over the Prime Minister's signature, and it comes from No. 10, Downing Street. We are told, however, in the White Paper that in nearly go per cent. of the industries of this country no more can be produced because there is no material, although there is labour. Can that be right? I am asking whether I am drawing the right inferences from this authoritative statement. I believe I am, but I do not understand how that statement can be reconciled with the Prime Minister's message that we must attain an extra 10 per cent. If we are so short of materials, how are we to attain it?
  Mr. Stokes: Is the right hon. Gentleman trying to tell the House that there is too much or not enough material?
  Mr. McCorquodale: According to the White Paper, as I read it, there is not enough material and there is no shortage of labour. It says that labour is not at present the limiting factor.
  Mr. Stokes: Last year.
  Mr. McCorquodale: No, this year, in 1948. The White Paper says that labour is not likely to be the limiting factor in 1948. Surely, that means, if it means anything in English at all, that there is no chance of our getting a higher industrial output. Therefore, it is no good telling people to work 10 per cent. harder.

  2325
  Does it mean that we are already so far down the slope towards economic disaster that we cannot get more material to keep the labour in this country occupied at its full stretch? That prospect is most disturbing, and it should be cleared up by the Government. I do not believe it is right. I believe that there is a shortage of labour in many sections of the community. This White Paper says that, by and large, excepting mining, textiles and agriculture, there is no shortage, or no over-riding shortage of labour.
  The White Paper goes on to say that such bottlenecks and shortages as exist are largely caused by lack of accommodation. The only comment I can make on that is that this is in large measure due to the sins of omission of the Minister of Health in his housing policy, which has not only caused great misery in this country but great economic difficulty as well.
  Mr. Austin: There is no Tory responsibility for that, I suppose?
  Mr. McCorquodale: If wiser counsels had prevailed at the Ministry of Health, there would have been more houses in the proper places for people to live in at the present time. Of that there is not the slightest doubt, and everybody in the building industry, both employers and trade unionists, tell us the same.
  Mr. House: How does the right hon. Gentleman account for the fact that in the first two years following the recent war almost 20 times as many dwellings were provided as in the first two years following the previous war?
  Mr. McCorquodale: I suggest that that question is not relevant to our discussion. I am not interested in Lord Addison, who was the Minister responsible for housing at that time and is very well respected by the party opposite. I am not interested in Mr. Lloyd George's Government. I was quite young in those days. I am interested in the houses being built now, and I am making the categorical statement that if wiser counsels had prevailed at the Ministry of Health, there would have been more houses at the present time, and the job of the Minister of Labour would have been very much easier.
  I intended to speak about many matters arising out of the White Paper, but I
  2326
  think I can leave them to subsequent speakers. There is one point I should like to comment on. I am appalled by the complacency of the' Government at the way in which they baldly state that they expect the numbers in the Civil Service administrative and non-productive staffs to be as great in the coming year as they have been in the past. Now that the Government realise that inflation is serious, their first duty, I should have thought, would be to economise in this respect, but we get no encouragement in that direction from the Economic Survey for 1948.
  I have covered rather a lot of ground and I am very grateful to the House for listening to me and to the Minister for paying attention to me. I know that later on he will give me answers 70 some of my questions. As I have said this is the first speech that I have made in this House since I was elected. My electors in Epsom asked me to say to the Government: give us facts; give us efficiency; above all, give us a national and not a purely party lead at this time in the nation's affairs. We know it to be true that the British people, the crdinary British people, are the greatest in the world. We believe that they deserve a better deal than they are now getting. My people asked me to say that if the Government cannot give the people a better deal, the Government should gracefully retire and give a chance to somebody else to restore greatness to our country.
  4.56 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Lee: Until the right hon. Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale) began his incursion into the realm covered by the Minister of Health, he was making a very pleasing and fair speech. I thought he was somewhat out of his depth w hen he went into that realm, unless he was prepared to tell us what we could substitute for materials like timber which are m short supply in the world. I was glad he paid a tribute to the shop steward movement. I laid down my job as a shop steward to come to this House in 1945. I fully share the sentiment of the right hon. Gentleman as to the good work that was done in the factories by the shop stewards during the danger period, but I do not altogether agree that the authority of the union officials was in any way lessened by the

  2327
  increase in the influence of the shop steward movement.
  The reason why that movement became more prominent during the war was the making of the Essential Work Order, and orders of that kind, and the creation of joint production committees and the agreements around those things. They meant that much of the administration had to be done internally in the factory, and in the main by people who were permanently there. It was necessary that the shop stewards themselves, who were present during the whole time, should take charge of that work. It was clearly impossible for the officials to do it as effectively. There were difficulties of arranging transport in connection with the committees, and the shop stewards played a leading rôle in finding solutions. It is for those reasons, and not for the reasons adduced by the right hon. Gentleman, that the shop steward movement became more prominent during the war.
  I believe that the Government can claim, with justification, that, in spite of all our economic difficulties, they have been able to introduce a far better spirit into British industry than has been there for many years. There has been a lowering of the incidence of strikes, official or unofficial, and that fact has been very gratifying to us all. Because of his vast knowledge of the subject, the ability he has displayed and the sympathetic manner in which he and his officials have dealt with such strikes as have taken place, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is entitled to a great deal of credit and the thanks of this House and the country.
  One of the great difficulties which has confronted us and still confronts us is to get a more correct balance of manpower in our industries. I do not believe that we can ever attain perfection in this. What may be perfection one month may well be out of all proportion two or three months later. For all that, I feel that there are certain ways in which a better balance could be obtained which have so far not been tried. The movement of manpower in itself is not the greatest single issue confronting us. To use manpower to the best advantage, we must think in terms of vast improvement in production methods. In this sphere we have a long way to go before we can be satisfied.
  2328
  The Industrial Organisation Act will be well within the recollection of hon. Members. That Act gave the Government power to set up development councils in many industries. I would like the Minister to dilate on that when he replies. I am informed that up to date no development councils are in being. I am aware of the necessity for preliminary discussions and an examination of each industry, but I feel that a sufficient length of time has now elapsed since the passing of that Act for us to have seen development councils set up in at least one or two of the more essential industries. We are seeing a very fine response from the workers and management in a number of the essential industries but unless we can get a really big increase in productivity in certain of our feeder industries, that increase in mechanical production and so on will inevitably result in unemployment in the essential industries.
  Surely it is in the feeder industries, in which conditions of labour have been poor for many years, that we must concentrate our efforts for the setting up of development councils? It may well be that in those industries the idea will receive most opposition. That sort of thing has happened in certain industries, because of their conservative—I use that word in its industrial sense —outlook towards change, they have held back the ability to expand of those industries which depend upon their products. I therefore ask my right hon. Friend to realise that unless we can get development councils and an expansion of labour power in those industries, the very fact that we are encouraging production and getting a response from essential industries which depend for feeding on other industries will merely result in unemployment in the essential industries.
  While I am speaking about feeder industries, I would offer my humble but very sincere congratulations to the Joint Advisory Committee on Conditions in the Iron Foundries which has now issued its Report. This Report is a very splendid piece of work. We know that the foundry industry has long been the Cinderella of the engineering trade, and we are well aware that foundries will always be foundries, no matter what we do about it. We know that the comfort which can be obtained in modern aircraft factories or general engineering factories can never

  2329
  be achieved in an industry in which men work on their hands and knees in cold, wet sand, an industry in which the men are frozen to death in the morning and roasted in the afternoon when the furnaces are going.
  However, I hope that the recommendations of the Committee will be accepted; especially do I hope that the recommendations for the setting up of a joint standing committee which will be permanently in session in order to examine the development of the foundry industry will be supported by my right hon. Friend. It is noticeable that in paragraph 3 of the report it is pointed out that:
  "There are in Great Britain about 2,000 iron foundries, differing greatly in size and production and producing castings ranging from an ounce up to approximately 150 tons. Some foundries, particularly those in the automobile section or those constructed or equipped for special war purposes, are highly mechanised while in others, particularly the smaller jobbing foundry, methods have not changed appreciably in the last 5o years."
  That puts a finger on the centre of our troubles. My knowledge of the foundry industry tells me that we really must concentrate upon its modernisation. I know employers who have sent their foundry managers to America and even to scour the world to find out modern improvements in foundries, and they are most anxious to give facilities to their employees in order to get more comfortable conditions as well as increased production. On the other hand, there are many foundries which are a standing disgrace to our industrial organisation. I hope that the recommendations for the setting up of a joint standing committee will find favour with my right hon. Friend.
  The lack of imagination and expenditure in pre-war years is now being paid for very dearly. While under present conditions we cannot expect to achieve the same capital expenditure as we would like to achieve and as is necessary, I hope we shall realise that by a study of modern methods, many things can be accomplished in all industries even within our present limited range. I spoke a minute ago in reply to the right hon. Gentleman on the question of joint production committees and their rôle during the war years. I was a member of one long before the war, but I was never
  2330
  satisfied that they achieved anything like the results which are possible under that scheme, even in the most advanced factories during the war.
  Although I know that my right hon. Friend is making strenuous efforts in this direction, so far we have not get many beneficial results in this most important field of joint consultation on production matters. We ought now to envisage-linking them up far more strongly with the regional boards in industry. In a particular factory the workers elect their representative to the joint production committee. From time to time they take complaints to him and say, for instance, that there are many unnecessary operations in the performance of a certain job and ask him if he can do something to have the operations eliminated. He meets the employers' representatives round the table and puts those points to them. If the employers do not choose to carry out the suggestions, that is the end of the matter. Failure to agree means that the employer always wins.
  I do not want to use the joint production committees for industrial warfare, but it is necessary that we should be able to get a neutral mind as an arbiter on important issues of this kind, because when one places the case of the men before managements and, time after time, come back with the same story—that the management does not agree with the issue and therefore nothing else can be done—immediately there is frustration and lack of interest in the production committee. It is easy to see that this has broken down the joint production committee arrangements in many factories during and since the war. Therefore, I hope my right hon. Friend will make strenuous efforts to link them up Ns with the regional boards in order that, where there is failure to agree in a factory on a specific issue, the regional board ca n send along one of its members, who,ire employers' representatives or trade union officials, to bring a new mind to bear on the problem, a mind not disturbed or biased from within a factory.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I hope the hon. Member is not trying to make out that joint production committees in general are places where disputes are settled? I am sure he means that they are places where these things are worked out together.
  Mr. Lee indicated assent.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I see the hon. Member agrees. Would he not also agree that in cases such as that, instead of sending along what might be called an arbitrator, it would be of far greater value if there were available technical advice which could be called in?
  Mr. Lee: That was really my point. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that in 99 cases out of 100 one can get agreement without any dispute, but in the odd case, where contentious points arise, where, maybe, there is a little sourness, and it is so necessary to get a settlement, when, as now, it merely rests with an employer to say no, and that is the end, inevitably there is frustration amongst the employees. However, I accept the hon. Gentleman's suggestion; we want technical advice from whatever angle it comes. I submit that the most appropriate people to supply that technical advice would be the regional boards who consist of employers and employees in the vicinity, who would have good knowledge of the factory, the type of product it makes, and so on.
  I think the workers in general understand the necessity for increased output, but we have now reached a stage where we must be more specific in our information on the importance of particular industries to the people working within them; instead of general propaganda on the question of production, we must give particular industries knowledge of the importance of their own products. During the war we went much further than that. We had targets for factories, targets for departments within factories, targets for sections within departments. Those targets were on view, and the men and women were able to see that the target figure was being overhauled each month; indeed, at times we were able to increase that target figure. In this way we would be able to bring influence to bear on groups of workers within the factories on the targets at which they are aiming.
  Speaking in an economic Debate in this House a year ago this month, I said I felt we were suffering from concealed unemployment. Today that is more true than it was then, in this respect: I have not available figures, but I am certain that the percentage of non-productive paper workers is rising every week. I know
  2332
  some are necessary because of the necessity for controls, and so on, but even if we take into consideration the necessity for administrative workers—paper workers, as I term them—on matter of that kind, there is a far greater percentage employed within the engineering industry than ever there was before. That tendency started well before the war, and has been accelerated since. Instead of merely allocating certain numbers of people to each industry, the Government should now get down to the job of ensuring that there is a proper percentage of the workers on productive operations, and that a decrease in the number of paper work is achieved.
  Mr. Stokes: For the purpose of elucidating what my hon. Friend is saying, with which I do not disagree, may I ask would he agree that as, for instance, the production capacity of any man on machine tools is increased, inevitably the proportion of floor workers is also increased?
  Mr. Lee: Yes, I do not dispute that, but I am trying to bring to the notice of the Minister that the proportion of paper workers is increased out of all relevance. Therefore, if we are to get the best out of the manpower available in these industries, we must look into the types of job upon which they are engaged. We hear from time to time of the amount of production obtained per head in industry now as compared with pre-war, and we are told that many industries have not yet achieved too per cent. parity with pre-war. We cannot achieve that if we add to the productive worker the burden of a bigger ratio of non-productive workers than he had to contend with in pre-war days.
  We have also reached the phase where our piece-work practices are retarding productivity in some degree. Many modern factories have long discarded the ordinary piece-work system. For instance, the Ford Motor Car Company would not have individual piece-work many years before the war. We know that when a method of production under piecework agreements is decided upon, the piece-work price is fixed, and that price will obtain until there is a change in the particular operation. We also know from experience that if we go higher than a certain piece-work earning, there will be a change in the type of operation, some

  2333
  infinitesimal change in the casting we are machining, and, on the basis of that, there will be a demand for an alteration in the piece-work price. Because of these things, workers in industry know that if they go above a certain fixed percentage of piece-work earnings, inevitably that piece-work price will be reduced. Precisely the opposite should be our aim. We should say, "If once you have achieved a certain ratio of piece-work earnings, say 50 per cent., we will increase your price as an added incentive to reach that particular figure." That method obtains now in a number of countries, and the results achieved by it have been wholly satisfactory, so I hope we can see a change in that direction.
  Mr. Stokes: Would my hon. Friend explain it a bit more? I do not understand.
  Mr. John Lewis: Before my hon. Friend does so, may I ask is he prepared to accept that this method exists in many industries in this country, and that at the present time it is not common practice to lower production bonuses when the output is increased?
  Mr. Lee: I can speak for certain heavy industries: I do not doubt my hon. Friend's knowledge of one industry, but I know engineering and foundry work and in regard to that, what I have said is perfectly true.
  Mr. Stokes: I did not understand my hon. Friend's reference to the increase in the allowance to keep up the incentive. I do not know how his mind was working.
  Mr. Lee: If my hon. Friend will agree with me on the previous argument that if workers earn over a certain amount on piecework there is an incentive to cut down——
  Mr. Stokes: There should not be.
  Mr. Lee: My hon. Friend is an engineering employer, but it is true. In an endeavour to get increased productivity, instead of keeping that fear over the head of the worker if he increases his production to such a degree that his piece-work earnings go above a certain percentage, we should say "Once you have achieved that percentage, we will give you a better piece-work price." That would provide
  2334
  the incentive to go at an even faster gallop.
  I was rather unhappy earlier in the year, and I know that many members of my union in the shipbuilding industry were unhappy, about the 20 per cent cut in steel. The explanations which have been given are wholly satisfactory, but they have not had sufficient publicity in the shipbuilding yards. I was, therefore, very pleased when my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury pointed out that the steel allocation this year will be at least as high as, and in the first two quarters higher than, last year. That being the case, there no fear of prolonged unemployment in shipbuilding. In fact, he envisages a bigger turn-out of ships this year than last year. I hope that announcements like that will be given full publicity, because there is great fear in the industry after its terrible experience in the interwar years. I hope the Goverment will find means of making such announcements more widely known than they have been able to do in the past.
  Trade unions must adopt a far more responsible attitude towards the question of production than in prewar days. For many years we in the trade union Ill lVernent have done what we could in this matter, but, now, with nationalisation of great industries and control of others, the need arises for trade unions to use their funds to a far greater degree in providing education for their members for admnistrative posts and for educating their members in technical matters appertaining to their industries. I know that trade unions own big funds, and I take no pride in the fact that my union has many millions tucked away in the bank. It would be far better used in educating our members, and giving them an opportunity of learning about management and so on. That would increase the number of technical workers, and the efficiency of the industries in which they are engaged.
  These things would pay the country and the trade union movement more than merely preserving funds against the day —which I hope and believe will never come again—when there is necessity for using those funds for strike pay and so on. We should give to the worker far greater responsibility, and I mean this to apply to industries which are nationalised,

  2335
  as well as to those which are not nationalised. The dignity of labour can only be fully realised when men work for themselves, for their country, for the rehabilitation of their country—not for private enterprise. By replacing the restrictions of the profit motive by the incentive to work for one's country, we can release that vast store of creative genius which our workers possess in such rich abundance.
  5.25 p.m.
  Lady Grant: I trust that the hon. Member for Hulme (Mr. Lee) will not mind if I do not follow his arguments in detail. With a great deal of what he said I agree, but there was much with which I thoroughly disagreed, including his last remarks regarding private enterprise. From some slight experience of industry during the war I was interested in his remarks regarding development councils, and I agree with him in his belief that at the moment there is a degree of concealed unemployment.
  I wish to base my remarks on man power on two premises: first, that there is, in fact, no shortage of labour, and, secondly, that the manpower which is available is not being used wisely. My first assumption is based on some interesting statements in the "Black Paper," the Economic Survey of 1948 which remarks with the most disarming candour that if, through some mishap, we were unable to receive Marshall Aid, this Government will
  "be obliged to make such drastic cuts in our dollar and gold purchases as will bring wholesale unemployment, distress and dislocation of production and will delay for years the prospect of a decent standard of living for our people."
  If because of the happy events in America in the last few days we may hope to receive Marshall Aid, nevertheless this "Black Paper" remarks that, even with the full assistance of capitalism to bolster our Socialist economy,
  "the shortage of dollars will impose limits"
  on the Government's power to buy imported supplies of raw materials even if available
  "on a sufficient scale to eliminate bottlenecks in our own production."
  Further in the Economic Survey we find in the discussion on the export targets for 1948 much talk of saturation of markets and shortage of raw materials. In
  2336
  paragraph 193 it is said that this country must face under-employment. These are most serious statements. If during the coming year we are to face increasing unemployment, what steps is the Minister of Labour taking to counter this rising tide of unemployment which, without doubt, is to be with us?
  On the second assumption, that manpower which is available is not being properly used, I agree with much that my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale) said, and I wish to support him in his second "maiden speech" in his remarks on the Control of Engagement Order —of which he made nonsense—and on the spivs and drones Order. I know that in industry the directed person is nearly always an unwilling worker. In the war we used to find that when these people arrived at the works with the inevitable green card the firm was more or less forced to take them on, and because they could not seek employment elsewhere, a kind of resistance movement to work was set up in the industry which was most difficult overcome. We found in Aberdeen, when labour was directed South to Birmingham, while many made good, there was unrest at home, unrest in the factory, and, in some cases, these people took the next train home. I am absolutely certain that the average person in this country very much resents the flouting of the age old long tradition that a man or woman should in time of peace be able to choose his or her own employment.
  In the Economic Survey for 1948 we find that the three most important industries in this country during the coming year are coal, agriculture and textiles. The appeal for more workers in textiles is to a very large extent directed at this time towards women. I should like to make a few inquiries to the Minister of Labour in connection with women at work. In this country we a all know we have a long tradition in certain areas, particularly in Lancashire, of women at work in industry. There has, however, been a social trend towards women taking on black-coated work employment in preference to factory work, and since the war many have returned home or have married and are unwilling to re-enter industry. During 1947 the figures given by the Ministry of

  2337
  Labour of new entrants into industry amounts to 750,000, but the wastage amounts to 800,000. The target envisaged in the cotton mills for recruits is the very conservative estimate—and I use that in its industrial connection—of 58,000, which of course means that we are hoping to get as our target for the end of 1948 as many people back into the textile industry as we got during the 2½ years after the war, when we had people coming back from the Services.
  One must, therefore, assume that many women are going into the textile industry from other industries, for instance, light engineering, and they are going to enter a highly skilled industry when they are probably unskilled. Will the Minister say what practical arrangements he is making for the training on a short or long term basis of these new entrants into the textile industry. Then, of course, there is the question of married women in industry. I should like to know from the Minister what arrangements he has made for whole-time mill workers, who have left and got married to return to the mills on a part-time basis. During 1947, 100,000 more women have entered industry on a part-time working arrangement. I would also ask him what arrangements he has made with the industry to pursue the practice, which had some success during the war, although it was difficult to administer, of putting work out to married women's homes. I am aware of the difficulties confronting the management, but I believe if married women are to return to industry these things must be considered.
  I must confess that I think it is absolutely wrong that women, married or otherwise, should now be asked to return to industry in great numbers. After all, family life has during the last eight years been profoundly disturbed, and I would suggest that the family unit, as the most stabilising force in the community, should be given some peace and time for readjustment. It is just about a year ago since I first caught Mr. Speaker's eye for my maiden speech, and I remember saying then that I thought it was asking a great deal of women that they should go back to a double job. If I may be allowed to quote what I then said, it was that those keeping house today are spending at least half the day trying to live the other half. Women are being asked to run the home, do a job, and work almost
  2338
  double the hours of the average man. On every hand you find men asking, for shorter hours and vet they have the temerity to ask women to return to industry and do a double job. If I may say so with respect, I consider that we are returning to the social habits of the jungle where in Africa, for instance, women undertake long labouring tasks and the men have hours of veritable ease. The only thing which gives me quiet pleasure is the fact that I do not believe men appreciate the consequences of the five-day week, because many of them find Saturday mornings about the busiest day of the whole week, and they have to do their share of the housework.
  Nevertheless, I should not like to give the impression to the House that women do not perfectly appreciate the national emergency, and there are not some who are very willing to return to industry. That may be in cases a form of escapism from congested accommodation, because we all know that housing has been tackled with supine inefficiency by this present Government. Nevertheless, if women are to return to industry, I welcome the remark in the Economic Survey on page 151, that efforts are being made to improve the amenities and issue more licences for the purposes of canteens and day nurseries in the factories. I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to take, part in this Debate later on, and I should like to ask whether cuts in capital investment are going in any way to preclude the provision of these further amenities in industry.
  I should like to ask questions on one or two points about the provision of day nurseries. It is most important that these nurseries should be open at hours which conform to the working shifts. For instance, in Aberdeen during the war we found the day nurseries opened from 9 o'clock to 6, while the working shifts were from 6 to 2, from 2 to 10, and from 10 to 6. There was, in fact, only one nursery open for 24 hours or where women could leave their children all the week and collect them at the week-end. Also, if the Minister of Labour is searching about for some other labour for redistribution, I trust he will give prime attention to the Civil Service before, first of all, depleting the distributive trades, because if he does that it will only lengthen the queues and cause more housekeeping difficulties for women at this time.

  2339
  I hope the Government will not forget that these women who have to enter industry and do a double job are to be the mothers of the next generation. On the one hand, we find the Government asking for an increased birthrate and doing everything possible to help the mother and child, and, on the other, there is this demand on our women to work longer hours under unnatural conditions. It is the high responsibility of any Government of the day to ensure that no women suffers from overstrain, but that she is able to keep herself in enduring fitness of body and of mind.
  There is just one other aspect with which I should like to deal. I approached the subject of manpower on two assumptions, namely, that there is no shortage of manpower, or at least there will not be in the near future; and, secondly, that the manpower that is available should be better redistributed. The point which I found of great interest in the speech of the hon. Member for Hulme was his remark regarding personal output, because, whatever labour and materials we have available, it is very important that the greatest effort should be made to ensure the maximum production of what we have in use. The Prime Minister has often exhorted us to work 10 per cent. harder, and it has also been said that if all bestirred themselves five per cent. harder it would be equivalent to 900,000 extra workers. When we are considering the personal outlook of man and woman to their work, we must take into account the broader physical and economic policy, which, of course, we are going to debate in larger fashion after the Easter Recess. I trust that the Budget will give us some hope, that there will be greater opportunities for those in industry to have more adequate rewards for skill of head or hand invested in their work. I notice that the Lord President of the Council the other day, when he was temporarily disengaged from party politics, made a speech at Birmingham, in which he spoke of the importance of the human factor in industry.
  Apart from the pleas made by the hon. Member for Hulme for development councils, I trust also that the practices of training personnel for welfare industrial officers will be very carefully examined, because I feel that personal management has got immense possibilities for increasing production. It has the twin aims of
  2340
  improving the working conditions of men and women and of easing human relationships. It has been proved that where industrial welfare has been organised efficiently, the better health and morale of the worker has very much facilitated greater production. Although we can get people into industry by one means or another, we cannot necessarily make them like it or make them work. The task of personnel management is not only to supervise canteens, surgeries and so on; it is, also, to understand the home background of every worker in the factory, to know the job inside out, to understand the payments for the work, and, therefore, to hope to be able to assess in human fashion the personal characteristics of every worker. We must never forget, in all these organisations, that the operator is essentially a human being and capable of all the vagaries of human beings.
  In conclusion, I trust that when the Government, on a high political level, are composing economic surveys and the Budget, they will remember that no political design can be of any use unless the personality and character of the individual operator are taken into account. In this age of materialism we should do well to remember the famous words of a great statesman—Disraeli—when he said that:
  "The wealth of England"—
  and, I trust, also of Scotland—
  "is not only material wealth. It does not lie only in the number of acres that we have tilled or cultivated, nor in our shipyards, nor in our factories, nor in our works. This is only the material wealth of a nation: we have a more precious treasure, the character of our people."
  5.43 p.m.
  Mr. Timmons: When I hear hon. Members discussing the questions of manpower and production I feel sad, and for this reason. I come from an area in Lanarkshire, which is in the heart of industrial Scotland. A few days ago the Minister of Labour gave the number of people unemployed at 16th February as approximately between 6,000 and 7,000. These figures, which relate to only a small part of Lanarkshire, have since risen very rapidly. For the whole of industrial Lanarkshire the figure is now more likely to be between 9,000 and 10,000.
  Much has been said about production, but we have come up against a difficulty which is a very important factor. This

  2341
  is a development area, and under the Distribution of Industry Act a number of new industries have come into the district. I have spent the last two or three weeks in visiting various Government Departments to try to stave off, to some extent, the danger of large numbers of people coming on to the unemployed register. Only last week one firm alone paid off 300 employees, an additional 200 will be leaving tomorrow, and there is the possibility also of a few weeks' total close-down. This is because of overproduction—or, perhaps, not so much over-production as bad arrangement on the question of production generally.
  The hon. Member for South Aberdeen (Lady Grant) mentioned maldistribution of labour, but this is maldistribution of production. I quote as an example the firm adjacent to my own home, which paid off 300 workers last week, another 200 this week, and which is faced with the possibility of even further reduction. It is up against a problem; there are five or six different firms producing the same kind of goods in the London area where there is no problem of manpower. There seems to be a lack of liaison between one Government Department and another. If the various Government Departments got together they could, to a great extent, divert, and have a greater diversion of, production throughout the country. That would obviate the question of unemployment.
  In my Division there is a factory with approximately 1½ million feet of factory space which has not done a stroke of work since 1945. This is not because there is nothing to do, for skilled labour is available and the factory is suitable for heavy industry and could, in fact, be used to great advantage. I understand that the factory is owned partly between the Government and Colvilles Ltd. I have tried several times to get the factory for the use of other industries. Only a few weeks ago I was approached by another concern who said that, if they could have use of that factory, they could find employment for 4,000 or 5,000 people. Something must be wrong, for we cannot obtain the use of that factory and get it into proper production. In one small part, fewer than 200 men are employed.
  There is the example also of another firm which came into the district from England and produced 5,000 temporary
  2342
  houses in 13 months. Admittedly it has since been put on to the production of permanent houses. But again we are up against a Government Department and no encouragement is given. Eight hundred people were thrown out of work at that factory only a few weeks ago, again because of a lack of co-ordination and relationship between one Government Department and another. I appeal to the various Ministers concerned to come closer together and examine the whole question.
  After addressing a public meeting last weekend and appealing for keener and greater production, I was challenged about various places closing down because they had over-produced. This problem is having a serious psychological effect. If large numbers of workpeople are thrown out of work there is a damaging and serious effect on the rest of the workpeople in various branches of industry.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: If the hon. Member will allow me, there is one question I should like to ask him. He is putting out a very great dangerous and misleading argument, although I do not believe he really means to do so. He talks about a factory closing down because the workers had overproduced. Can he tell us a little more about it?
  Mr. Timmons: The factory I referred to, where workers are being paid off every week, is a new one in the district. The firm is that of Vactric and this is what happens. There are five or six different firms all producing vacuum cleaners. The allocation of materials goes to those various firms to produce for the home market and also to aim at a certain standard of exports. The firm I have in mind made a serious attempt to increase their export figures and they have done so. I believe that they are the highest in the list of exports for that product. The other firms, which were producing in the London area and which have no unemployment trouble, did not face up to the question of exports, with the result that the home market has been flooded.
  I wish to discuss another question. In Lanarkshire certain types of labour have been trained for the new industries. These men and women have done a good job of work. Representatives of the English firms who have come up there met the various managements to find out their troubles. Those representatives are unanimous that the type of labour in

  2343
  the districts excels in quality anything which they have ever found in the South. For that reason alone, more consideration ought to be given to the Lanarkshire Development Area. There ought to be greater co-operation and liaison between the Government Departments concerned. In Lanarkshire there is a big factory at Mossend where there is approximately 2,000,000 square feet of factory space. Another big factory, which belonged to the Ministry of Aircraft Production, was taken over by a firm in order to build houses. They built 5,000 houses in 13 months. Then the temporary housing programme finished and they turned to the production of permanent houses. Officials of the Scottish Office say that their product is second to none. But there are no contracts coming in, and 800 men have been paid off.
  Against that, we find that other firms are receiving large numbers of contracts, with the result that they are not able to meet their obligations. In the meantime, in Lanarkshire we have 800 additional men unemployed. I consider that more could be done on the part of the Government in co-operation with the various Departments. We should have a greater diversification of industry instead of trying to produce so much in London. Other things should be produced in London, and more opportunities should be given to the development areas. I remember the period between the two wars. I remember 1939. The position was so serious that at least 5e per cent. of the working population had been unemployed for many years. Our people think that there is a danger—and I can see it—of drifting back to the conditions of 1939. I appeal to the Government to get down to the problem and see what can be done to stimulate a greater interest in the use of the manpower available in Lanarkshire.
  5.54 p.m.
  Mr. Sidney Shephard: I do not propose to speak for very long and I shall discuss only one aspect of the manpower problem, that relating to day nurseries. I agree entirely with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for South Aberdeen (Lady Grant) when she remarked that at this stage it ought not to be necessary to encourage women to go into industry. They "did their whack"
  2344
  during the war. But there it is; they are not compelled to go back to industry and we should ensure that if they do return, adequate steps are taken to look after their children.
  I raised the question of day nurseries on an Adjournment Debate last June, because I was seriously perturbed at the closing down of so many nurseries. I got very little satisfaction from that Debate. During the war we had 1,550 day nurseries with places for 71,000 children. That was the peak period. By 1947 the number had fallen to 900, with places for 44,000 children. There is good reason why that number had fallen and why the nurseries were being closed. At the end of 1946 the Minister of Health with the Minister of Education circulated a letter to local education authorities stating that after March, 1947, they would receive only the same grant for day nurseries as they received for educational purposes. Up to that time, the Minister of Health had assumed 100 per cent. responsibility for the day nurseries.
  From what was said by the Minister during the Adjournment Debate, I thought he would see that, where there was a need for further day nurseries, steps would be taken to provide them. He said:
  "Wherever the Ministry of Labour say that more nursery places are required, the Ministry of Health at once approaches the local welfare authority, and arrangements are made for the opening-up of the day nurseries."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, I2th June, 1947; Vol. 438, c. 1464.]
  But these nurseries are still being closed. More nurseries are being closed than are being opened. In reply to a Question yesterday, the Minister of Health said that six day nurseries for 344 children were opened during 1947, and 13, for 567 children, were closed. Surely there must be a far greater need than is shown by those figures for places in nurseries. According to the "Economist" last week the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, speaking on the need for married women in the cotton industry, said:
  "In order to attract 10,000 married women the programme for day nurseries, which had virtually been allowed to lapse, is to be speeded up."
  I would like to know what steps are to be taken to speed up this matter. What

  2345
  provision is to be made to open day nurseries wherever they are required? Is the onus still to rest with the local authority? Is the grant to be restored to 100 per cent? If it is not, I do not believe that local authorities are prepared to carry the burden of the cost.
  At the firm with which I am connected, we opened a works' nursery a year last January. It proved an enormous success. The number of children for which one can cater, or the actual number of mothers who come to work, is not the most important factor. Even though a particular nursery can cater for only 20 children and, therefore, only 20 mothers can work, those mothers can do an important job. In my factory they were employed on tasks which enabled bottlenecks in production to be avoided. The consequence of being able to use married women for that purpose is out of all proportion to the actual physical work which they do. The nursery has proved so successful that we are trebling its size. We are confident that that is the right approach.
  Now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is here, I would point out that, if they are to be equipped properly, nurseries cost a lot of money. I ask him whether industrialists are to be allowed to treat the capital sums spent on equipping or building nurseries as an expense for purposes of taxation. They are no use for any other purpose. I ask him to look into that point. It seems to me that if a firm is prepared to spend money on a nursery which is obviously quite useless for manufacturing purposes, that amount of money spent ought to be allowed as an expense of the firm.
  6.1 p.m.
  Mr. Stokes: I cannot pretend to be able to follow the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Shephard) with regard to day nurseries, and which of them have or have not been closed down. I would like to take him up on the point about increased employment of women, which was also mentioned by the hon. Member for South Aberdeen (Lady Grant) who spoke earlier. I certainly agree with the hon. Lady that a woman's place is in the home; but under the present circumstances, if there is an opportunity, and women wish to use that opportunity, why
  2346
  should facilities not be afforded them to go and work? It is not a question of conscription of women. That would be entirely deplorable at the present time, and possibly would be deplorable however severe the circumstances. It seems to me to present an entirely false view of the whole situation to pretend that women are being bullied to go and work. It is not so. They are being encouraged and afforded the facility to do so, and I do not see why they should not have that facility if they so desire.
  I start my remarks tonight by protesting against the ever-increasing habit in this House of a Member getting up and saying that he or she dries not intend to follow the person who has just sat down. That seems to me to be the absolute negation of Debate and I propose to carry on a campaign about it by interrupting every time a Member gets up and makes that remark when he or she commences to speak. Any Members who suggest that they do not propose to follow the Debate should clear out and write a letter to the Press. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why to the Press?"] I am sure that that is a point of view which is shared by a large number of newspapers. Let them engage in some other form of verbal or written activity, if my hon. Friend is touchy on this point. I understand his point of view.
  When the hon. Lady—I wish she were here—began her speech, she said that she based all her arguments on her belief that there was no shortage of labour, that there was plenty of labour but that it was not being properly used. I do not accept either of those two theses. I think there is a genuine shortage of labour, but I am not prepared to say that it is all being properly used because I do not know what the term means. If "properly used" is meant to convey that everyone has to be regimented and chased into jobs which one thinks they should be doing, I am prepared to accept the hon. Lady's view that labour is not being properly used. But she proceeded to contradict herself entirely by saying that everyone should be able to choose whatever job he likes and go where he likes when he likes. She apparently wished to give people genuine liberty, which I certainly desire, but I cannot reconcile that with her previous statement, and I think that her argument was useless on that ground.

  2347
  The hon. Lady went on to indulge in the usual Tory Press campaign of bewildering the people on the question of under-employment and unemployment. As I understand the White Paper—I do not always understand White Papers—paragraph 193, to which she referred, refers to under-employment arising not from the fact of there being too little raw material or too little opportunity to work, but owing to the dislocation arising from change-overs as a result of which there is inevitably a short period of unemployment which might be described as underemployment; and the effect on our productive machinery is bound to be deleterious.
  The way in which that was put and the way in which newspapers are inclined to put it, is something against which I protest most strongly—the suggestion that there is likely to be large scale genuine unemployment in the immediate and middle future. I do not think that that is the case at all. I think that the Chancellor was right in the point he made that we depend on the Marshall plan under our present cock-eyed monetary system to enable us to purchase the necessary raw materials to enable us to keep our men employed, there will not be unemployment. He explained that if the Marshall aid plan went through that would not arise, and it is doing a bad service to this country at this moment for any public person or newspaper to give the impression to the workers that there is danger of immediate large-scale unemployment. I do not believe it to be the case, but it is having the effect of making people hold back and feel anxious, and not give of their best.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale) opened the Debate. Again, I wish I could follow him. I should like to take him up on several points. He said one thing with which I agree—it may be that he said others, but I refer to this particular one. He said that he thought there was something to be said for changing the name of the office of the Minister of Labour. I agree with him. There is a good case to be made for calling it the Ministry of Manpower and National Service. It is a psychological point, and I think there is a good deal to be said for changing the
  2348
  name to the Ministry of Employment and National Service or the Ministry of Manpower and National Service.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that raw material was all right but that labour was in short supply, thus completely contradicting, in anticipation, what the hon. Lady said. They seemed to be talking from very much the same brief. It savoured very much of the Tory Central Office. Then, much to my surprise, he complained that housing was all wrong. How any Tory Member can stand up in this House and say that sort of thing absolutely beats me. I certainly agree that we have not achieved all that we wanted to achieve in housing. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, who has done such a magnificent job of work in this matter, would be the first to admit that. But we have done far more than a Tory Government would ever have achieved had one been returned to power in 1945. To pretend otherwise is merely deceiving the people.
  Listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Hulme (Mr. Lee) I agreed, not entirely, but to a considerable extent, with what he said about joint production committees, but I am not sure that he and I mean the same thing. I do not believe in high falutin' committees, I do not believe that they are any earthly use. What really matters in production is that affairs that go wrong on the floor should be settled immediately, not kept for a monthly meeting of a body of people who rather pompously sit around a table——
  Mr. Lee: Would my hon. Friend say what other body he would substitute for the regional board? I merely desire that some other type of body not biased on the immediate issue should come and settle it. If my hon. Friend can suggest something else, I shall be obliged.
  Mr. Stokes: I have not got up to that level. I am speaking about what I consider to be the vital issue in the shop. I believe that there should be regular shop committee meetings held on the spot, the machine shop, the fitting shop, the foundry and so on. Let complaints be brought forward and settled on the spot, and settled quickly, and not be left to those pompous bodies who think they have authority, which they have not.

  2349
  My hon. Friend then discussed the question of the proportion of paper workers to productive workers. I interrupted him to say that it was inevitable that as the power of production of one man was increased by machine tools, etc., the number of floor labour or people not engaged in working machine tools but who are just as important in the productive machine, is bound to increase in proportion. I would agree with him, in regard to his reference about paper workers, that there is a danger of the whole system being flooded with paper. In my view, the situation has very much improved since the present President of the Board of Trade took office. There has been quite a considerable diminution in the amount of form-filling, and if one only fills in half of it one can get away with it without anybody noticing. The hon. Member was referring, I suppose, to the paper work that is involved in keeping the machines going, and there is a danger there, but that is always the difficulty of planning any production. You must have a plan on paper; there is no other way. One cannot keep a plan in one's head, and the politicians who try to do it always forget their plans. If we were to carry that type of work into a machine shop, it would not come out all right. These points must be guarded against.
  One other difficulty which the hon. Member spoke about was that of increasing the supervisory staff in production today. It is inevitable now that an amount of green labour has to be taken in, but it is no use pretending that this is any immediate use to production. We cannot take in new entrants with no experience and expect them to operate machines. The production does not come out. We need to have a larger supervisory staff than would otherwise be necessary.
  Once the basic rate of piece-work earnings has been fixed, it should not be cut. The hon. Member went on to explain to me later what he meant by a sort of bonus on top of high piece-work earnings. I think that is quite a good thing and there is a great deal in it. He also said that there was the danger in the men's minds that, if it was found that they were getting good earnings from high piecework rates, the rates would be cut. There ought to be in any well-organised factory
  2350
  an absolute cardinal agreement that a piece-work price, once it had been fairly fixed, should not be cut, whatever the earnings. Then, of course, there comes this difficulty. If there is a change in the methods of production, where are we? There should be no change unless the methods are changed as a means of getting genuine improvement in production.
  Mr. Lee: I quite agree. I imagine that what we could agree upon is that, if there is a change in the method, the average earnings before the change should be agreed upon after the change of method.
  Mr. Stokes: I might agree, but there is a -difficulty. What we want to get into the men's minds is that it does not matter if they earn time and a half, double time or two and a half times, that it would not mean any change in those piece prices unless the method is changed for improved production, and that it should not be used to cheat in order to put the rates down and reduce earnings.
  I referred just now to the difficulties of green labour, and this is accentuated by the fact that at present the demands on our manpower for the Armed Forces are very considerable. Now that the Chancellor is here, I will say to him that I Wish he would urge upon his right hon. Friend the scrapping of the Conscription Act. I believe that we could gel an immediate accretion to our manpower of 100,000 young men who would come in at the right stage of development. We lose them now; they go off, and we cannot help it. We have to take what labour exists, but these people do not come back. May I also urge on the Chancellor the question of getting the best out of our manpower? I am not referring to what was mentioned by the hon. Lady. I understood her to say that she thought it was misdirection of labour, in which everybody was in the wrong places.
  I want the Chancellor to realise -hat, if we want working men and women to work —people like me, who might be regarded as a not very principled fellow, and ordinary human beings—they want a carrot. I want a carrot; I am not going to work for nothing, and the average man is like that. I am sure my hon. Friends behind me agree with me that a man will not work unless he gets something out of it; that is, unless he is a complete idiot or a saint, and I do not claim to be an idiot and I am certainly not a saint.

  2351
  Therefore, I must have a carrot, and the carrot which I want the Chancellor to give me is the carrot which appeals to the women, because my opinion is that men will only work when women make them. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend suffers from the appalling handicap of bachelordom. I believe that, if the Income Tax was taken off earnings up to £7 a week, it would probably be the biggest incentive to greater production all round, but, if it has got to stay on, in order to maintain this monetary system, then a carrot must be provided.
  In other words, I want a carrot which attracts the women. Men will work when women make them, and, if there are attractive things in the shops, the women will tell the men to go to work to bring home a bigger wage packet so that they can buy those things. It is no use saying that it is not so; it is. The whole of this question of a bigger effort is a psychological one. We cannot do it by urging or persuading men mathematically about the figures of the national income and the export gap. They simply say "All right, I cannot add that one up."
  I wish the Government of this country would make it clear to the people of this country, and I hope the Minister of Labour will do it——
  Sir Patrick Hannon: Will my hon. Friend allow me? May I suggest to him that he should put a speed limit on his speech, because he is speaking so fast that it is very difficult to understand what he says?
  Mr. Stokes: I am sorry I was speaking too fast, but, if I speak slowly, I forget what I want to say. However, I will try, but my brain goes faster than my voice.
  The next point to which I wish to refer is that the Minister of Labour should make clear to the people what is the Government's policy as regards foreign labour, and I include in that German labour. There are lots of Germans in camps in this country who have nowhere to go if they return to Germany, and who, in the economic conditions prevailing out there, would find, if they were skilled men—I do not say it of the ordinary rough labourers—that there is very little for them to do. There are a number of these men who are skilled men and have
  2352
  nowhere to go, and who could be absorbed into our own industry with advantage to our own workers, but they are not allowed to do it because they must register for agricultural work When they write to me and say that they are highly skilled mechanics or textile workers, I have to write back and say to them, "You clock on as an agricultural worker, and we will see what we can do for you." These people are available and could be put to immediate work, but they are prevented from doing anything else because they must register for agricultural work.
  The absence of what I will call a sufficiently emphatic Government policy regarding the use of foreign labour is having serious effects, and this leads to very serious misunderstanding of quite a considerable nature. I believe that if the people of the country really understood that the Government realised the necessity of using these workers who are available, and if the Government would say that it was their policy, the people would accept the proposal with greater good will than some are inclined to do at the present time.
  I want to talk to the Chancellor about the overall manpower position. I think it was stated by the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate, or by the hon. Lady who spoke later, that there was too much labour, and that, therefore, it was likely that the unemployment position would get worse. I put it to the House that, so long as the Government follow the policy of full employment, and so long as there is a real opportunity for people to work, there will always be a shortage of labour. In point of fact, provided the sources of nature are set free, there must always be more jobs than there are people to do them. That is more or less the position under the Government policy of full employment.
  I do not see the slightest possibility of getting back to our 1939 standard of living with this increased labour power at the wheels, and with an ever-increasing export demand in order to pay for our imports, because—for the sake of argument—what, in effect, we are doing is employing 1,500,000 more people than before, and, taking the average family as four persons, that means that there are six million more people who are high consumers instead of on the margin of starvation. Therefore, we must have consumer goods for an extra six million people at

  2353
  a time when we are trying to double our export. That being so, one must recognise the fact that the sky is almost the limit in the capacity of this country to absorb labour, provided the raw materials are available. Of course, I agree that if there is nothing to work on, there is nothing to do; hut, provided the supplies of raw material can be brought in, there need be no fear at all of unemployment. We ought to be able to go to an ever-increasing crescendo of output, confident that there is no fear of people going on short time.
  I do not believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can ever achieve his export programme in manufactured goods, because I do not think the necessary manpower exists. If he wants to do what I think is impossible, namely, to double his export of manufactured goods, he will have to have at least 650,000 more skilled and semi-skilled men at work in this country today. There is not the slightest chance of getting them. In fact, we have to look to our raw materials—and if my right hon. and learned Friend likes, to our capital goods and textiles—to close that gap.
  I must now come—if I can find it—to my conclusion. It is that I welcome this survey of the Government. I do not regard it, in the ridiculous Beaver-brook Press attitude, as being a "Black Paper." It is a very good, factual statement. I, personally, would have expressed some of the things in it in a different way, or would probably have put in some things that are not there. But here is something on which we can build, and which was really started in the 1947 Survey. I am confident that if the Government will really say what their policy is with regard to this foreign labour, and if they will make it clear, beyond all possible shadow of doubt, that there is no real fear of any considerable unemployment, now that we see our economic supplies of raw materials almost secure, then, I believe, with the response which each man or woman can make, there is every possibility—I do not say absolute certainty—that, even if we do not succeed in closing our export gap in 1948, there will be not the slightest danger of our not doing so in 1949.
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. Spearman: Before you came back to the
  2354
  Chamber, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) said that his brain worked very much faster than our power to understand.
  Mr. Stokes: No, I did not say that.
  Mr. Spearman: Nobody is immodest more charmingly than the hon. Gentleman. I am very well aware that I do not suffer from this disability, so perhaps it is appropriate that the House should enjoy the rest of listening to my slow-working brain after listening to that lightning performance which we have just admired.
  I wish to make two points. The first, which I think hon. Members on all sides can agree with, is that this country is more dependent than, perhaps, any ether great nation on an adequate distribution of its manpower. The second, which I may find more difficult in getting accepted, is that, at the present time, we have not got anything like a happy distribution of manpower. There is nothing in the White Paper which gives one any encouragement to think that we are going to get the right men in the right places. If these two points are accorded, I believe they make a most important indictment of the Government.
  If I can, I want to justify them. With regard to the first, we are, I suppose, the only really great nation which has for a long time been absolutely dependent upon imports from abroad. After all, if the rest of the world were submerged, and the United States of America or Russia were left, they could, somehow or other, still survive. But for this country, if the rest of the world were submerged, it would mean that half its population would starve, and I believe there would be a good deal of as to which half it should be.
  We are dependent upon vital supplies from abroad because we can only produce about half the food we need, and only a small amount of the raw materials. We have become great, not by digging immense mineral wealth from our soil, but by selling manufactured goods. Therefore, if we are to export enough to enable us to get the vital necessities, it is absolutely imperative that we should have the right distribution of labour. At the present time, we must have the maximum labour in those industries making the

  2355
  necessities of life and the goods which we export, and the minimum in the semi- or absolute luxury industries. After all, a rich woman can afford to be an untidy housekeeper; a poor woman cannot. We are pretty poor today. In fact, it is because we are so poor, and so dependent on essentials from outside, that many of us on this side of the House have been so apprehensive during the last two years at the projects of the Government and about their playing tricks with our economy.
  I have tried to show that I think it is desperately important to get the right distribution of manpower in this country. It is very clear to any objective observer that we have not got it today.
  Mr. John R. Thomas: Will the hon. Gentleman say what is the relation, or the ratio, of non-productive workers in 1939 to those in 1948? Will he say how it is estimated in the White Paper?
  Mr. Spearman: I was going to take these figures from the White Paper. The distributive trades, national and local government, transport, and building increased their labour force by 321,000. The 1947 Economic Survey had anticipated an increase of only 22,000. The vital industries, coalmining, agriculture and textiles, only got 98,000, whereas 149,000 had been hoped for. We have found that the planning abilities of the Government have, apparently, in many cases, led them into grave errors, particularly in their anticipation of the amount of new labour available which, in the Economic Survey of 1947 it was thought was going to be 278,000, and was actually over twice as much—611,000.
  Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. I asked him to give the ratio between the 1939 figure of non-productive workers and the figure estimated in the White Paper. If he has not got the figures, perhaps he will forgive me if I read them to him. Out of every 20 persons employed in production in the essential industries in 1939, seven were employed on distribution. As estimated in 1948, there are only five. In transport and shipping they are parallel. In consumer services—the hon. Gentleman could not give me this information—for every 20 in 1939——
  Colonel Dower: Will the hon. Gentleman say from where he gets his information?
  Mr. Thomas: Of course.
  Sir P. Hannon: On a point of Order. The hon. Gentleman intervened to ask a Question, but he is now really making a long speech. Are we to have two speeches at the same time, Mr. Speaker?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member who was in possession of the House gave way. I did not notice him try to speak again.
  Mr. Thomas: I asked the hon. Member whether, if he had not the figures, he would allow me to give the information. That was all I was trying to do, to assist the hon. Member.
  Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe (Liverpool, West Derby): On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. While not in the least challenging your Ruling of a moment ago, is it not the custom of the House that there must be reasonable brevity about interruptions for which an hon. Member gives way?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member who has possession of the House has only to rise to his feet again and the other hon. Member sits down.
  Mr. Spearman: I thank you for that information Mr. Speaker. I had thought that, having given way to a question, I was unable to rise to interrupt the speech. I now know I was wrong. Of course, I had the information, because the figures the hon. Member was giving us were published, but I did not think they were very relevant because in prewar days we were a relatively wealthy nation, with vast resources and we could afford all sorts of luxuries that we cannot afford now. We could, then, perhaps, afford 1,400,000 people in Government and local government services, but we cannot afford 2,100,000 people there today.
  As to the maldistribution of labour today, I would like to quote from the leading article of "The Times," which I think is very relevant:
  "The latest labour returns strongly suggest that the 'new labour controls' are not yielding the quick and substantial results which could be their only justification. The manpower budget for 1948 is so precariously balanced, even on paper, that a deficit in terms of essential output seems almost certain."

  2357
  There are two Ministers who are able to re-allocate and redistribute labour. First, there is the Minister of Labour, who can do it by direction. If he were in Germany, as before the war, or in Russia today, and he was clever enough to do so, certainly he could carry on with it because he would have machine guns and concentration camps to enforce discipline. I do not believe the Minister of Labour has got the heart or the head for that job. I do not want in any way to be disrespectful to the organisms of the right hon. Gentleman; I am only making the suggestion on the assumption that his heart is typical of the average Englishman who loves liberty and freedom above everything else and that his head is typical of the average occupant of the Front Bench.
  The other Minister who can, of course, redistribute labour is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That is why I hope he is going to take part in the Debate today——
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Cripps)indicated dissent.
  Mr. Spearman: —because it is possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by seeing there is a fair balance between demand and supply, to make the price mechanism work. Unfortunately, he is paralysed by the inflationary policy of his predecessor who has virtually tied his hands up to date by it. The Government's experiment in suppressing inflation by a system of controls has completely broken down—as we on this side of the House have repeatedly said we were sure it would, and now in fact it actually has—and the latest Government White Paper actually says, in paragraph 217:
  "No system of economic controls can be wholly proof against strong and persistent inflationary pressure."
  I do not want to belittle the need for controls on occasions. I realise, of course, that after the dislocation of a great war it is inevitable that there will be bottlenecks, and unless there are some controls prices will soar and will perhaps remain high even when those bottlenecks have been eliminated, thereby adversely affecting the cost of production. Controls are, no doubt, necessary on occasions and they help by temporarily cushioning the rise
  2358
  in prices, provided that production increases. Where I maintain that controls are disastrous is when they are preventing production from increasing, and I believe we may be approaching that time now. We have seen in Germany how the whole system has been undermined by controls and the effect on production has been catastrophic. I believe today the Government are fighting a losing battle with inflation. They are having to add control upon control; that means more snoopers, more cost investigators, more prosecutions, until finally we shall have more people controlling than being controlled.
  Mr. John R. Thomas: Back to1939.
  Mr. Spearman: I believe today we have got a great deal of concealed unemployment owing to the appalling shortage of raw materials. It is an awful thought to realise that in paragraph 28 of the White Paper it says:
  "Clearly, with our financial reserves it so dangerous a point, we cannot afford a heavy investment in additional materials. But clearly also such an investment would bring a rich return."
  We have, indeed, been brought to a very low state if we cannot afford to buy the raw materials to make production efficient. I believe there is probably nothing interfering with vital production more than this lack of raw materials. It means that factories can have no rhythm, because, all over the country they have to stop production to switch over from one material to another and so eke out their insufficient supplies. There can be no proper rhythm in production unless there are adequate reserves on which to base their plans for the future. Now we have a clear admission from the Government that we are not able to create the stocks which would bring such a rich return.
  I had hoped that the Chancellor 01 the Exchequer would speak today and I was going to ask him if he would make two admissions. First, if he would say how much he regretted that his predecessor should have boasted as lately as 15th April last year, in his Budget Statement, that:
  "Today there is plenty of purchasing power. That has been our ailD."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th April, 1947; Vol. 436, c. 54.]
  He took obvious satisfaction in the very substantial increases in expenditure on the social services, coming on top of vast increases in the preceding year.

  2359
  We have tried to live better than we can afford. We have reduced the hours of work, raised the school leaving age, lowered the age of retirement, expended vast sums on housing and medical services and kept down prices by subsidies. All these things are highly desirable, except perhaps the last. I am not sure in our present position it is wise to pay out subsidies to rich and poor alike, whether they need them or not, but for the rest I entirely agree that they are desirable provided they are not going to jeopardise what is much more vital, and that is the food of the people. I realise it is very difficult to admit one has been wrong, and knowing the Chancellor of the Exchequer I think he would dislike admitting that one of his colleagues had been wrong even more than admitting that he had been wrong himself.
  There is, however, a second admission which I should like to ask the Chancellor to make. If we could have a clear admission on these points, it would encourage the country a good deal, because everybody knows we are in a mess—there is no question about that—but if the Government could say they knew how they got there and where they have gone wrong, there would be a little more hope for the future. I should like to hear the Government admit that they did not sufficiently realise that our attempt to consume more than the supplies available was adversely affecting the balance of payments. Apparently, from previous speeches of the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, there has been the idea that external expenditure and internal expenditure were quite independent of one another. I always got from him the impression that, provided he had an effective favourable Budget balance, that was all he could do in the matter. Surely, it is absolutely clear that to the extent to which we consume more than we produce we must be drawing upon our gold and foreign exchange, thereby endangering our balance of payments position.
  The Government's attitude to inflation —which I believe is so largely the cause of the mal-distribution and inadequate production of the country today—has taken the very usual line that Governments have always taken. First of all there is the denouncement of spivs. That has always been the case, because in the first instance Governments do not seem
  2360
  to realise that spivs are not the cause but the inevitable consequence of inflation. To denounce them is about as useful as denouncing the spots on a man's face when he has got measles. Then, according to historical precedent, the Government start a widespread measure to resist a rise in prices, again not realising that, if there is inflation, that is only nature's cure if nothing is done about it. To try to suppress a rise in prices by controls is about as effective as trying to cure a man with fever by putting the thermometer into cold water. That is the Blum phase, which failed in France: that is the phase through which we are now passing. Finally, we shall come to the third phase when we take a realistic view and attack the causes of inflation instead of the effects; but history shows us that that generally requires a new doctor. We must have an orderly reduction in the standard of living——
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): Did the hon. Member say that we must have an orderly reduction?
  Mr. Spearman: Yes, an orderly reduction in the standard of living, because we are trying to live far beyond our means.
  Mr. Harrison (Nottingham, East): Would not the hon. Member agree that a more preferable procedure would be to do everything possible to achieve a better standard of production, in order to avoid that progressive reduction in the standard of living?
  Mr. Spearman: Obviously, it is far more pleasant to lengthen the short leg than to shorten the long leg. We must do everything in our power to return to that period of comparative abundance which we had in the inter-war years, and which at the time of the General Election we were told to expect. One reason why we have not done so is the inflationary situation caused by attempting to spend more than we possess. Therefore, putting first things first, we must get down to living on what we have got before we can hope to get better production. We must face the fact that in our nation's industrial youth, 100 years ago, we were a rich nation with a start in the world, and with conditions in our favour; we worked very hard and saved a lot. Today—through no fault of our own—we have lost those savings. Conditions have been against us, we are not working very hard, and have a very

  2361
  high idea of what we can afford. We must adjust ourselves to the facts and come down to earth. Obviously, it is imperative that this reduction in our standard of living should be orderly and fair all round. Clearly, it would not be fair to knock £50 a year off everybody's income, for that would cause terrific hardship to those in the lower income groups. At the same time, we must not make such reductions as will be a disincentive, and which would reduce the amount of goods available. In fact, we must not sacrifice the principle of efficiency for the principle of equality, because to do so may bring down the standard of living of the worker lower than would otherwise be the case.
  I maintain that unless the Government spend much less than they are now spending, and consume a far smaller proportion of the country's goods, the cost of living must go up. There will be no other alternative. However, we must ensure that it takes place in such a way as will inflict least hardship on those who can least bear it. Two years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
  "What we roust guard against … at all costs, is a foreign indebtedness that we cannot discharge or an inability to import essential foodstuffs and commodities from abroad, without which we can neither live nor work."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th February, 1946; Vol. 419, C. 2213.]
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman must realise today that we have arrived at just that condition. Without incurring further foreign indebtedness we can no longer afford to buy those goods which are vital to us. But have we taken all steps to avoid that situation? Quite clearly we have not. We have gone ahead with a vast plan of expenditure; we have avoided doing all sorts of things which might have got us right. We are in a real mess today, which I believe is due, not nearly so much to what the Government have done—to their nationalisation or other schemes, which may cost us dearly later on—as to what the Government have not done, because they have failed to plan.
  It is no good bickering about who is to make the sacrifices: all sections of the community must make sacrifices, and that requires leadership. We have been denied that leadership which is vital if were are to recover. As we have been told repeatedly in the White Paper, we shall be in a position to get the raw materials
  2362
  to maintain our present standard, and the food we need, only if we borrow again from America. I believe that the United States, in their generosity, will give us another breathing space. But to my mind it is vital that in that breathing space we make the adjustments, however painful and however drastic, which will get us on our feet again, and make us independent. It is monstrous that we should use this time merely to put off the day of reckoning. It is unthinkable that the United States of America should be called upon indefinitely to support us as pensioners. And it is quite intolerable that we should accept that situation.
  6.50 p.m.
  Mr. D. J. Williams: Daring the last 12 months or so we have had in this House many Debates on the economic situation. In those Debates almost every speaker has stressed one thing: the need for more production; more production in order to close the gap in our balance of payments; more production in order to relieve the inflationary pressure; and more production in order to raise the standard of living of the British people. Whatever differences may exist as to the cause or character of the present crisis, I believe there is general agreement that more production is the one thing vitally necessary in order to overcome the crisis.
  In this task of producing more the proper use of our manpower is of fundamental importance. Productive labour is the most vital element in our economy. It is not, as economists like to say in their textbooks, simply one of the factors of production: it is the one creative agent in the productive process. Machines and materials are dead and inanimate things unless living labour is applied to them. In the words of Sir William Petty: the founder of classical political economy:
  "Labour is the father and the earth is the mother of all wealth."
  Economists have travelled far since then, but in these days of crisis we all have to come back to this basic and fundamental truth. There are four aspects of this manpower problem. First, there is the size of the available labour force; secondly, there is its distribution throughout the economy; thirdly, there is its distribution within industry, or, as the economists say, the division of labour, and, fourthly, there is the productivity of each unit of labour.

  2363
  These are large and complex questions, and I have no time to deal with them all. I propose, therefore, to confine my observations to the distribution of labour throughout our economy.
  Since this Government came into power, we have heard a great deal about the overall shortage of labour. I am sure that the significance of that will not be missed by the workers of Britain. In the past, our problem was not a shortage of labour, but a surplus of labour—not too few men for the jobs, but too few jobs. Since then, the wheel has turned full circle, and whatever our present difficulties, we do not want to see it reversed. Apart from the fear of war, the workers of Britain have one dominant fear, and that is the fear of the return of mass unemployment. That, I believe, is the one thing which will make the workers of Britain lose confidence in this Labour Government, and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Labour will take special note of that.
  I do not accept the view that there is an overall shortage of labour. An absolute shortage of labour is a quite meaningless expression. It is as meaningless as an absolute shortage of population; indeed, it comes to the same thing—we cannot add to the one without increasing the other, and I do not think anyone will argue that these islands are under-populated. Our problem, therefore, is not a shortage of labour, but maldistribution of labour. The task which faces this Government and the British people is to secure the redistribution of our available labour force in accordance with our national needs. This is the starting point of any policy of putting first things first.
  It is no use allowing labour to be drained from productive sources into nonproductive activities. It is no use allowing labour to be drained from production into distribution, when the available goods for distribution are being reduced in quantity. Lastly, we cannot afford the basic industries, coalmining, textiles, and agriculture, to be deprived of essential manpower, when the products of these industries are absolutely indispensable for our national salvation. Yet this is happening now, and it has been happening for quite a long time. We cannot overcome this crisis until these tendencies are reversed. This, I believe, is the most urgent problem that faces us in 1948.
  2364
  It is clear that the present distribution of our manpower is completely unsatisfactory. We are not using our labour force in the best national interests. The Economic Survey for 1947 made that perfectly clear. The present position is that we have a whole variety of anomalies in the utilisation of our available manpower. For one thing, our most important basic industries are seriously undermanned. Secondly, in the less essential industries there is too much labour in relation to the available supplies of raw materials. Thirdly, non-productive and non-essential activities absorb far too large a proportion of our available labour force.
  In some areas, notably in London and the Midlands, there is a shortage of labour. I understand that the local employment exchanges have far more vacancies than can be filled from the local working population, whereas in the Development Areas —and I come from one of the worst—we have vast pools of unemployment, and have had them for many years. We have over 40,000 people unemployed in South Wales. They are not temporarily unemployed for a day or a season, but it is a long drawn out helpless and hopeless process which is undermining the hopes of prosperity for this area and for these people. All this shows a serious lack of balance in our economy. This, in turn, reflects itself in a lack of balance in the use of our labour force. We are not using our labour to the best national advantage, and this aggravates and intensifies the economic crisis, and makes it far more difficult to overcome it.
  This lack of balance in our economy is no postwar phenomenon. This was not something which was invented when this Government took office in 1945. Its roots go back far into the inter-war years. No one will argue, I am sure, not even hon. Members opposite, that we made the best use of our labour force in the inter-war period. For one thing, we had a vast army of unemployed, ranging from one million to three million. During the whole of that period, the Development Area in South Wales from which I come had the highest percentage of unemployment in the country. There was this surplus of labour, and no one bothered about the basic organic disequilibrium affecting the economy. The problem was there, but it was concealed. An army of two million unemployed provided an iron

  2365
  curtain which concealed this disequilibrium from the eyes of the economists and from the eyes of the ordinary people. Since this Government has been in power, with the application and implementation of the policy of full employment, that iron curtain has been torn down.
  We can all see now that the economy is badly out of balance and needs drastic and far-reaching readjustment. This disequilibrium has been going on for a long time. During the inter-war period, our basic industries were declining. The numbers in employment in them fell each year. Between 1927 and 1937, coalmining employment dropped by 26 per cent.; the cotton industry by 28 per cent.; the pig iron industry by 26 per cent., and shipbuilding and ship repairing by 18 per cent. During the same period, there was an enormous increase in employment on non-productive, non-essential and, if I may use the expression, parasitical activities. Between 1927 and 1937 employment in entertainment and sport increased by 105 per cent.; in hotels, restaurants, public houses, clubs and boarding houses by 157 per cent.; in professional services by 53 per cent.; and in the distributive trades by 51 per cent.
  These figures show that our economy was in a dangerously unhealthy state during the inter-war period. It was seriously out of balance. This went on for 20 years or more, and no real attempt was made to correct it. We were developing a spiv economy, and, even worse, these tendencies were creating a spiv psychology. These tendencies, which operated during the whole of the interwar period, were temporarily submerged by the war. Since the war, this pattern of economy has re-emerged and it is now aggravated by inflation. Surplus money, in the form of capital, drains labour and materials away from production and the important industries to less essential and less productive activities. Inflation always aggravates every unhealthy tendency in the economy.
  Now we are faced with a very serious disequilibrium. It is not going to be easy to correct it. It is going to be a long-term job, but it has to be done if we are to overcome the present crisis. The Government, of course, are quite aware of the seriousness of the problem. In last year's economic survey a special section was devoted to the problem of the
  2366
  distribution of manpower, and a series of targets were set for some of the most important industries. It was evident that the Government attached a great deal of importance to those targets, because they said that the achievement of the objectives of the White Paper could only be guaranteed if the manpower targets in the basic industries were reached.
  The survey for 1948 enables us to compare and to assess how far these targets have been reached. If we examine the figures, I am afraid that we are all bound to come to the conclusion that the results are most unsatisfactory. People have been entering the wrong industries. That is one very clear lesson of the statistics in the 1948 Survey. Our under-manned industries have been far short of their target, and the non-essential industries have exceeded their targets considerably. From August, 1946, to August, 1947, 1,300,000 people entered industry—new manpower available for industry. NN hat use was made of this huge army of labour? One hundred and sixty thousand went into distribution; 191,000 went into other consumer services; 45,000 went into entertainment and sport; only 17,000 went into agriculture and fisheries and 12,000 went into agriculture alone. In the coalmining industry, which is our basic industry, without which everything goes, there was a net increase in employment of only 20,000. The Economic Survey showed clearly that we were short of the target in every one of the essential industries. In coal we were short by 12,000; in textile and clothing by 91, coo; in agriculture and fisheries by 30,000; and in distribution services the target was exceeded by 178,000. These figures reveal a very serious state of affairs. They reveal, I am afraid, that we are not putting first things first. Until we do that we cannot hope to overcome the present crisis.
  The root of our trouble is that we have not enough producers especially in coal, textiles, agriculture, pig iron and the other basic industries. On the other hand, we have far too many people employed in non-productive and non-essential activities. These services are absorbing far too large a proportion of our available labour force, and the numbers are increasing. At the same time, we have had, as the result of the export drive and the import cuts fewer goods to

  2367
  distribute and more people distributing them. There are many forms of inflation. The most pernicious form is too many distributors chasing too few goods produced by too few producers. That is the root of our problem and until we put this right we cannot hope to overcome the present economic crisis.
  7.7 P.m.
  Mr. William Shepherd: The hon. Member for Neath (Mr. D. J. Williams) did some service to the House by pointing out that the maldistribution of labour is perhaps our most signal difficulty at present. The Government are perhaps entitled to say that to put seven million people back in their jobs in a few years is a pretty good job of work. There is a reasonable case for those who sit on the Government Front Bench saying that those of us who cavil at the small percentage of maldistribution are not recognising the good work that has been done. My hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) was at pains to point out that we in this country feel the maldistribution of labour much more quickly than other countries, because we have to use so much of our production for export, and we have to export precisely those products which other people wish to buy and not those that we wish to produce. Therefore, our labour force must be directed specifically into certain channels.
  I quarrel with the hon. Member for Neath and other hon. Members opposite about the way in which it is apparently conceived that in a democracy one can order about the labour force. It is an extraordinarily difficult thing in a democracy to try to alter the pattern of its economy. It is particularly difficult to do it when we have a level of employment as high as it is at the present time. Those who face the facts must realise that it is quite impossible even to guide the economic forces which, in our conception as Conservatives, ought to be guided by the State. If we had totalitarian powers we could do it as the Russians do. The Soviet Government sent four million people to the other side of the Urals when German invasion threatened, and issued an order that they were not to return. They have not returned. In this country, with our present democratic outlook and the fact that
  2368
  we have too high a level of employment, it is extremely difficult to control our economy and change the nature of men's employment by the means at our disposal.
  There are, I think, definite wastes existing. The first is obviously that of the Civil Service and, to some extent, of the Armed Forces, and the second is in industry itself, where during the war there developed far too many administrative workers. Hon. Members opposite have quoted the relationship between distributive workers and producers. That in itself is alarming, but the figures as presented in Government guide books do not give a complete picture, because if we look at the ratio of administrative people engaged in manufacturing industry to the actual producers, we find that during the last 20 years that ratio has increased enormously and that during the last eight or nine years it has advanced at an ever-increasing rate. Why has it increased? For the simple reason that E.P.T., plenty of profits and easy prices encourage the over-elaboration of administration. Almost every business in this country could cut down the costs of administration. Far too heavy an administrative load is being carried.
  As to the Civil Service, it is quite unreasonable for the Government to ask industry to take the position seriously when they have two million local and national civil servants, and it is sheer nonsense for them to say that they cannot do with fewer. Is there a Member in this House who believes that every civil servant employed by the Ministry of Supply is necessary? I hope there is not an hon. Member who believes that. Is there any Member who believes that some very severe pruning in the Ministry of Works could not be carried out with good effect?
  Mr. D. J. Williams: Assuming that we dispense with large numbers of civil servants, what does the hon. Gentleman suggest they should do? Does he suggest they should go into heavy industry or some other kind of industry?
  Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Member for Neath asked me where they would go, but that is not the point. Because of the nature of their work they contribute towards an inflationary pressure, and the fact is that the Government have been spending so much of the national income on employing these people——
  Mr. Williams: People always contribute to an inflationary situation so long as they are not actual producers, whether they are in the Civil Service or in industry.
  Mr. Shepherd: There are vacancies in work of a productive nature in various parts of the country, and the reduction of the number of civil servants and their absorption into work allied to production would help. The Armed Forces, I have argued, are in present circumstances a wastage of labour. I am one of those who believe that 12 months' conscription is not the best form. We ought to reach the conclusion now that a period of six months' conscription would be a much better length of time. Twelve months is not long enough to train a specialist and too long for basic training. In view of the difficulties that we face today, there ought to be some alteration in the present length of National Service.
  There have been many questions today as to whether or not there is a shortage of labour. The answer is that, in general, this country is not short of labour. I look with a good deal of fear on this policy of importing large numbers of foreign workers, because our basic longterm problem should be to find employment and food for over 48 million people. I feel that we should not, in looking at the immediate problem, lose sight of our long-term difficulty. To import foreign workers is to take too much notice of the immediate problem and too little of the long-term problem. Our problem will be solved by better methods of redeployment and by greater efficiency, and if we attempt to solve it by importing more labour, in effect we avoid the true solution of efficiency and the redeployment of our forces. That is true of industry generally and of the cotton industry more than any other.
  I said a short time ago that over-employment is a bad thing. Over-employment has just as much evil behind it as under-employment. Over-employment means lower output. It can be definitely said that there comes a point in employment beyond which there are diminishing returns, as for instance if there is employment to the extent that we have in this country, and there is a lower output figure than a smaller number of persons in that industry would give. There is also lower quality, and to a nation specialising in quality that is not an unimportant factor.
  2370
  Then there are far too few trainees. In the engineering industry today, for example, where are the skilled toolmakers of tomorrow? It is very difficult to find them. There are plenty of bodgers who rushed into the business, getting into it by a few weeks' or months' training, but the craftsmen who made our industry, and upon whom we must depend, are, not there. That is one of the evils of over-employment.
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: What is the remedy? What does the hon. Member advocate—a period of deflation which will automatically ensure a pool of unemployment in order to counteract these evils about which he is talking?
  Mr. Shepherd: I was merely saying that if the Government allow themselves to get into an inflationary condition where there is an over-demand for labour, it will bring in its trail a much less satisfactory position than would be the case if the demand for labour were better balanced. What we have to do is not, as an experiment, to indulge in large doses of inflation, but to try to find the optimum point at which we have a reasonable reserve and a mobility of labour so that we can maintain quality and apprenticeship, in particular. The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper) should not try to make political capital out of this, because it is a most important aspect of the national problem.
  I am not saying that the workers in this country are not doing their job. The dockers are not doing their job, nor are many builders, but apart from them, the workers of this country, who are the best in the world, without any doubt at all, are doing their job, and too much complaining by this or that side of the House is not in the national interest. We ought to say quite clearly that managements are not doing their job, because precisely this feature of over-employment and over-demand which make things bad from the point of view of the useful employment of the labour also operates in the case of managements. Managements today do not have to go round their factories trying to improve efficiency when the profit is not big enough. All they have to do is put something on the price. They are no longer driven to the most efficient method of production, because the Government protect them. Far too many businesses

  2371
  are based upon the 1939 output and protected by Government decree, and far too many people with energy and enterprise are excluded from the chance of competing with them. That is not by any means a desirable situation, and it can be remedied only by getting this better balance between supply and demand.
  I have suggested three ways by which that might be done—reducing the numbers in the Civil Service, reducing the length of conscription, and redressing the over-weighting of a large number of our industries. In future, industry in this country must contain a higher technical efficiency than ever before. We have, first, to get the balance back in our labour forces and get actual production and then we have to face the problem of getting production at the right price. Those are the two stages. To do that we have to change our outlook. We have to abandon restrictive practices—and they exist on both sides, despite denials made by one side or the other. We have to get competition back into industry, because it is the lifeblood of industry and of progress.
  We have to show that production is the thing that really matters; we must glorify production, if necessary; we must get a much better tempo into our industrial life. If we cannot get the machines regulated properly, which is the best thing, we must have piece-work. The Minister said recently that he did not know whether there had been an increase in piece-work since 1938. Only one per cent. more of our labour force is affected by piece-work than was the case in 1938. That is not good enough; our industrial future depends upon our productive efficiency, and I would remind the House that we had lost the race by 1938. By then, America was producing at over twice the man-hour rate that we were producing. The distressing feature is that we are not catching up with America. We are lagging further behind.
  Between 1937 and 1948 America increased her national productivity by nearly three times, in terms of monetary values. We did not, in those terms, increase our national productivity by double. Even allowing for the disparity between the increase in American and British prices, it means that during the war the Americans increased their
  2372
  national productivity at a much greater rate per annum than we did. Before the war, our average rate of increase was 1½ per cent.; in America it was 3½ per cent. In the last five, six, or seven years the Americans have accelerated their increase in national productivity, and we have slowed down. Those are very serious facts. If we have to sell more goods in a world in which the demand for manufactured goods is decreasing, and not increasing—and that is the salient point—we can only do it as a result of greater efficiency inside our own industry. We can only get it if we shake off the old ideas. The Government will render service to the nation if they can convince people of the necessity for greater efficiency and greater production, and get those engaged in industry to abandon their old ideas.
  Up to now, the Government have not succeeded in convincing the mass of the people of the urgency of our situation. No one would imagine that we were living on the edge of bankruptcy, with our gold reserves running out. If the Government, who are supposed to have the confidence of the workers, are to justify themselves in history at all, then they must accomplish this task as soon as possible. It has not been done yet, and I hope that, for the sake of the nation, which is even more important than the Labour or Conservative Parties, the Government will succeed in bringing about this realisation quickly, and will get down to the job of saving themselves from the disease which may well overcome them.
  7.24 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: I do not wish to follow the hon. Member for Bucklow (Mr. W. Shepherd) in his references to a high rate of employment. That is something which, of course, is of vital concern, and we must see that the workers of the country are not enticed away from productive jobs to the non-productive jobs. It is interesting to notice the suggestions which have come from the opposite benches—for instance, from the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) about the need for more planning. That is the sort of thing for which this Government have been criticised, and it is difficult to follow that line of argument in any degree when their proposals are so contradictory. I believe that the labour

  2373
  distribution of this country is of prime importance. If we do not solve our manpower problem, and cause our manpower to go into productive industries, where it can produce at a sufficiently high rate to satisfy the needs of this country and the export trade, then we are faced with only one alternative—mass emigration. That is the only way by which people will be able to find food.
  I want, however, to refer particularly to the Civil Service. I gave notice that I would raise this matter on the Adjournment, when I put a Question to the Prime Minister on 4th March about the size of the Civil Service. I am glad that I have been able to catch your eye this evening, Mr. Speaker, in preference to balloting for the Adjournment, which is always an uncertain thing to do. I rather regret, though, that I have caught your eye at this moment, because there is only one member of the Government, the Minister of Labour, at present on the Front Bench, and the Civil Service is not his particular responsibility. I think there is a major case to be made out for the transfer of the Civil Service, however, to the Ministry of Labour, because in any industry it is unusual, and considered to be bad management, for labour control to be in the hands of a chief accountant. There is an argument which can be made out for the Civil Service coming under the control of the Minister of Labour, so that the whole of the manpower of the nation is then his responsibility.
  I am very concerned at the increase of the non-industrial side of the Civil Service from over 382,000 in 1939 to over 691,000 by 1st January this year. From such contacts as I have had with industry, I believe that industrialists still need to find adequate manpower for our basic industries in order to satisfy demand. If they could get these workers they would be able to produce steel and other essential commodities to a much greater extent than today. I think it would be a good thing if there could be a transfer progressively from the non-industrial ranks of the Civil Service to productive industry, and if some of our black-coated workers could think in terms of getting their hands and faces black instead.
  I would like to refer back to the Adjournment Debate of 21st January, in
  2374
  which I spoke of the operation of industrial controls by the Civil Service. I believe that the way in which the bureaucracy is functioning is tending to hold up productivity, and to undermine the economic stability of the nation. Replying to that Debate, my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that in criticising the Civil Service I was showing that I did not like the Government. That was hardly a fair deduction to make, because the Government were not responsible, in the first place, for organising or building up the Civil Service, or for its methods. The Civil Service was already very mach inflated as a result of the war, and in any case the Prime Minister himself was, only last year, convinced of the need for an overall reduction as part of the Government's policy — in fact that there should be a reduction of some 10 per cent. If I was in agreement with the Prime Minister himself only last year, I think it was a little unjust of the Financial Secretary to say that I was working against the Government in suggesting that an investigation should be made into the size of the Civil Service and the way in which it functions.
  The House, particularly those of us on this side, ought to know, why there was a change in the policy of the Government in departing from this idea of a need for a reduction. I know that some reduction has taken place, but I do not think it is enough. The change in policy has come about because Ministers have consulted with their Departments, and have been told with perhaps some justification, that the Civil Service is working under great strain at the present time and is, in fact, overworked. The Departments point to the new tasks which are being laid upon them as reasons for the impossibility of complying with what was, at that time, the Prime Minister's decision. I have had a very interesting booklet sent to me about the Civil Service; it was produced by the National Whitley Council, and seeks to justify the present size of the Civil Service. It refers, in particular, to a remark made by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in June, 1946, in which he stated:
  "The Civil Service of this country, is, of course, not perfect, but in my view, and I think in the general view, it is the finest in the world. Staffs are now grossly overworked. There is not the slightest doubt about that."

  2375
  The booklet goes on to say:
  "As in large organisations, there are bound to be small pockets of staff here and there which through poor supervision or faulty planning, are temporarily underemployed. But even if perfection were achieved, the elimination of such cases would make no noticeable difference to the size of the Civil Service."
  This small booklet is rather too much of an apology for the Civil Service and does not do justice to the facts of the case. It is clear, I believe, that the 10 per cent. reduction should be a minimum and not a maximum target to which to work.
  As a result of the Adjournment Debate to which I referred, I received a considerable number of letters from civil servants or retired civil servants. They wholeheartedly supported the points I have made. It was interesting to note that the most concrete suggestion for reduction in the Civil Service came from those who knew, from experience over a period of years, the methods by which the Civil Service functions. The information that I have points to inefficiency at the top levels because of the method by which the administrative staff are recruited. After leaving university, these people have to face a very stiff examination, at the age of 22 or 24. I do not believe that the ability to pass a stiff examination at that age is any qualification for a responsible job in the public service as an administrator.
  Administrators are not found in that way. Those who pass stiff examinations may be very intellectual, but they may not be good administrators. There are better ways of finding good administrators. Certain methods have been used to supplement the examination system, I know, but a great deal more has to be done to make certain that we get good administrators for the public service. I recall the methods that were used during the war to find men who would be most likely to be good leaders in the Armed Forces. I would refer, in passing, to the most excellent scheme that was worked out by the Army for officer selection, by the application of certain principles of good management. The need now is just as great as it then was, to get first-class leaders in our public service.
  The present method is all too likely to find some good men and some bad men. It may well be justifiable to suggest that 50 per cent. of our senior officials are
  2376
  good administrators and that 50 per cent. are indifferent or poor. If we add to that the war recruitment by which the Civil Service has increased to a certain extent, and consider also the fact that the best men have been called back from the public service to go into industry, we may say that the number of administrators in our Civil Service contains more than 5o per cent. who are poor. I consider that to be a very serious state of affairs for the country.
  It is a matter of special concern to a Labour Government which is going forward with a Socialist policy. This Government is setting the administrative machine a vastly different task from any that it has fulfilled before. In the past, it may not have mattered very much whether the Civil Service was efficient or inefficient. In fact, if it had been efficient in the past it might have shown up the defects of private enterprise, and that would never have suited a Conservative Government. Matters have changed, and now hon. Members on this side of the House should show the Government that they view these matters with great concern.
  There has been too much conflict between the technically trained civil servant going into a technical department like the Ministry of Supply or the Ministry of Works, and those who have gone into the administrative service. The tendency has been to keep out of the more responsible posts those who were technically trained and to fail to take into consideration the need that, in Ministries primarily concerned with technical problems, it is the technicians with administrative ability who should have the senior posts of great responsibility. That principle does not apply at the present time. The cloistered atmosphere of the Civil Service is not conducive to the cultivation of great administrative talent.
  There should be some means—and I throw this suggestion out to the Minister of Labour because he is familiar with the methods of training within industry, which should apply also in the Civil Service—whereby men could be transferred from the administrative to the executive grades or vice versa. If they are not c…pable of good administration, it should be possible to transfer them, to the executive grade and if executive civil servants have proved themselves to be good at

  2377
  administration, they should be given a chance to make good progress. It is the only way to encourage enthusiasm in the Civil Service by giving the keen, capable men plenty of scope. I have made contact with civil servants, particularly in my own district. It is an industrial part of the country where many industrialists and trade union leaders feel that production is being held back because the controls are not functioning efficiently.
  I know one civil servant, who is a very hard worker and a trusted man. His opinions were not formed hastily and are such as can be taken notice of. On one occasion he was talking to me after a heavy week's work in the Board of Trade. He told me he had discussed his work with another official there and had asked him: "What have we achieved this week?—nothing tangible or constructive." That man felt a keen sense of frustration, That is not good enough. It must be possible for responsible public officials to feel that there is an objective towards which they can work, such as is provided in most large undertakings. It is vital that people shall understand what they are working for, so that they can fulfil their proper function in any organisation. The larger the organisation the more important it is.
  It is interesting to note that the staff of the Board of Trade has increased from about 4,000 in 1939 to more than 14,500 in 1948. A previous President of the Board of Trade sought to prevent such an increase by the use of methods of decentralisation, which industry uses very effectively. He encouraged the building up of the regional organisation, to prevent the creation of a huge bureaucracy at headquarters. That plan worked well, but since he left he has been amazed to find that the headquarters staff at the centre has been built up into a huge department in order to check the checkers who were out in the field. That sort of thing is not good enough. It duplicates and re-duplicates the numbers in the departments in such a way that it increases the overhead of non-productive workers. It is rather like a little ditty which runs:
  "Big bugs have little bugs
  Upon their backs to bite 'em,
  And little bugs have lesser bugs—
  And so ad infinitum."
  2378
  The way the Departments build up is like a grit of sand in an oyster, but unfortunately they do not produce a pearl. Contact with individual civil servants tells one what is happening in the Civil Service. They refer to the big bugs, and the little ones either bite those big bugs or scratch their backs. The yes-men scratch the backs of the big bugs and the no-men are inclined to bite them.
  I would refer in particular to one Department which has grown out of all proportion to what is justified. It is the Ministry of Civil Aviation, which has gone up and up continuously since 1939, when it had 273 of these non-productivties. In May, 1947, the figure was 4,950; in October, 1947, it had risen to over 5,000; its present estimate approaches 7,000, and it is proposed that it shall rise to 11,000. When the present Minister came into office he said he would make his Department one of the greatest in the Government. If he considers greatness to be numbers, he is certainly getting pretty near his target. That is happening at the same time as the airways Corporations, which are nationalised under-takings, are building up also, that instead of the nationalised undertakings taking responsibility away from the Department by a proper system of decentralisation and doing their executive tasks with a full sense of responsibility, the Department is building up equally. That sort of thing is thoroughly bad management. If that is to spread throughout the Civil Service, our nationalised industries and the country, we shall be faced with an ever-increasing number of people living on the backs of the productive workers, and that is bound to bring down the standard of living and increase production costs in such a way that it will prevent the country from exporting, particularly as the overseas markets become more and more competitive.
  As the Minister of Labour is here, I would like to refer to one thing which affects my constituency. It is a small matter, but it is indicative of the way in which the Departments do not view their responsibilities quite as thoroughly as they might. As we are short of steel, everything should be done to encourage production and to remove whatever is hindering production. Only a few weeks

  2379
  ago I visited a steel plant in Middlesbrough which is one of the largest in the country. I asked if there were any great problems or bottlenecks of manpower, and so on, which could reasonably be remedied, and the general manager said it would be a tremendous help if the young mill control boys who were doing an important job could remain at that work instead of being called up for National Service. Those boys operate the controls when the steel is put through the rolling mills. It is an important job and it is to some degree skilled, although it can be learnt within about 12 months. When young fellows are put on that job they become more or less indispensable.
  I put the matter to the Minister of Labour, as this probably affected only a few hundred boys throughout the country, and the Minister replied that he did not consider that it was justified. I got that reply—I will give the Minister credit for that—quite quickly, but if the Minister was able to give such a quick reply, I do not believe that he could have investigated this important problem with the thoroughness which it deserves. Perhaps he will be kind enough to look at the matter again, because exceptions are made to the call-up procedure where men are required for vital production, and here is a case where he could help to smooth out a difficulty.
  I also ask the Government to give serious consideration to the question of a review of what is a serious overhead cost to the country, namely, the organisation of the Civil Service, to see if there can be a reduction. It is only a question of opinion if I give a few cases or put forward examples for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look at, but no opinion either of mine or the Government can really matter unless the case has been thoroughly examined. I consider that the Organisation and Methods Division, which is doing very good work on general problems of superficial organisation, is not able to dig deeply enough. Senior members of the Civil Service agree with me that when it comes to fundamental changes, for example, whether or not a Ministry like the Ministry of Civil Aviation could be closed down—it could be closed down by the organisation of an air transport authority to take its place, that authority being a small organisation to supervise general
  2380
  policy-making only and not to take the executive work away from the Corporations—such major decisions can only be decided by the Government itself.
  Would it be possible to have without delay a Select Committee or a one-man investigation with expert assessors to go into the matter in order to see if the Government could set an example of efficiency to the country by economising in manpower and at the same time encouraging industry to economise in manpower where it finds that to be practicable?
  7.46 p.m.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: There will be a certain measure of support on all sides of the House for a great deal of what has just been said by the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper). Naturally we should all like to see big reductions in the Civil Service, and, failing that big reduction, most of us would like to demand some form of inquiry into why there was not a big reduction. What we have to face today—or what I have to face—is the very uncertain problem whether it is likely that the present Government, acting along the lines on which they started in 1945, actuated by principles which are entirely Socialistic and bound by their very being to centralise all our activities, will ever be able to reduce the numbers engaged in the Civil Service. That is the doubt in my mind, and I am afraid that in view of the Government's ultra-political approach to present world and national problems, I can hold out very little hope to the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough that he will ever see his desires fulfilled——
  Mr. Cooper: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise—I suppose he does not, otherwise he would be on this side of the House and not over there—that Socialism does not mean a big bureaucracy? In those industries which are today run by socialised methods—where those in control understand what socialised methods of organisation mean—the numbers of nonproductive staff are lowered greatly compared with those in industries not so run. The proportion of non-productive workers to productive workers can be shown to fall considerably.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: This is very interesting. Industry is becoming steadily

  2381
  nationalised, yet the hon. Gentleman was the first to quote the extraordinary increase in the number of civil servants in the Board of Trade. How does he adjust those two things? We cannot get away from it that even if we nationalise industry we must still have some form of ministerial control. That has been explained to us over and over again. It has also been said that if we do not nationalise our industries, we must get them under control so that they shall not compete with those which are nationalised, and that requires a lot of civil servants.
  I say that Socialism depends on control from the centre, and any system which depends on control from the centre is bound to be backed up by a heavy bureaucratic service which is bound to make heavy calls on manpower. I regret that the hon. Member will be disappointed in his desire, but his aim was admirable. His purpose must have been to find more men for work, but he did not quite tell us what he was going to do and how he would get them into work if he got them out of the Civil Service. The tragic fact remains that that is the problem which is really the background of the Economic Survey. In 1947 we had an Economic Survey which took between 32 or 36 pages of paper. It is significant that in 1948 it takes 63 pages of paper to explain the position to the people of this country. And a considerably larger number of people must have been employed to provide the present White Paper.
  The problem still remains, how to get the right people into the right work, and how to get enough people into the right work to enable this country to tick over at all. It is exactly the same problem which faced the Minister of Labour when he first assumed office. It is exactly the same problem for which preparation was made before the war had even come to an end. And it is exactly the same problem which is coming closer and closer to the people of this country without changing, but growing larger and more acute because the right steps have not been taken to solve it.
  Let us look at it. I have here a list of industries, all in trouble, which cannot get the right people and so cannot produce the stuff, so someone else suffers and, in the end, the whole country suffers. What
  2382
  is the list? Coal, agriculture, iron and steel, textiles. I certainly would not put agriculture second; in many ways I would put it first, because I believe that unless we can settle this problem of food production, it does not matter whether we have more workers in the pits or not, since in the days to come, in the near future, they will not have the food or strength to raise the coal to the surface. I would put it at the top for another reason, that it is the one industry which calls for special treatment, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that his problem in dealing with agriculture is housing.
  All these four industries would be helped in finding the labour they need if there were sufficient houses. What a pity the Minister of Health is not attending this Debate. Of all the four, the housing problem is most difficult of solution in agriculture. There is a certain amount of resilience and elasticity in attempting to solve the housing problem in the big industrial centres, but in the countryside there is none. There one is right down to the fundamental fact that there is no accommodation to spare and, added to that, is the fact that the system of agriculture in this country over the last few years has been forced by world conditions, by wars and so on, to change so rapidly in many parts of the country that a great deal more labour needs to be taken on over the whole area than was ever thought possible or necessary. Therefore, the housing shortage is far more acute, and the labour problem is far more difficult of solution in the rural areas.
  I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to do this tonight before he goes to bed; to go to the Minister of Health and tell him that he cannot continue to find chaps to work on the land unless he gets houses. Then let him go—and he will have quite a nice walk on the way home—to the Minister of Agriculture and tell him the same thing. I do not know if the three right hon. Gentlemen ever talk together; I often wonder if Ministers in the present Government ever talk together; but those three Ministers should keep in the closest possible contact. Do they mean to solve this food production problem or not? It was described by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer as the greatest dollar saver. What are they really doing about it?

  2383
  We have had many big boasts from the Minister of Labour and from other Ministers as to how smoothly the flow of labour out of the Forces has gone since the end of the war. Comparisons have been made between the Liberal administration immediately after the 1914–18 war and the Socialist administration after the last war, always to the detriment of the Liberal administration. That, of course, may account for the forfeiture of deposits in different parts of the country. These boasts are really not justified in any way. How can any Minister of this Government boast that demobilisation has gone smoothly and, at the same time, play any part in the production of an Economic Survey of this kind which shows that labour has gone into all the wrong industries? [Laughter.] The right hon. Gentleman laughs. It is a perfectly simple thing to empty a vast stadium of people by merely throwing the gates open and saying, "Get out." It is not quite so simple to see that everybody can get to the right railway station and into the right bus, tram and motorcar, and go to the right place.
  It is that part of the process which the right hon. Gentleman entirely forgot to carry out when he started to be responsible for the flow of labour. He might have imagined before it started that it would not be quite so easy to guide labour into those industries which needed it most. What steps did he take to put that matter right? He may smile; he may carry on a nice conversation with the Whip sitting beside him; he is probably paying no attention to the remainder of this Debate, but I want to ask him this question, what steps did he take when he saw that the intake of labour into those vital industries which are still undermanned was not going in the right direction? I hope he will be able to answer that question when he speaks on that matter.
  Mr. Keenan: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us into what industries people have gone from which they should now be redirected?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I cannot read the Economic Survey to the hon. Gentleman. If he has not read it himself, he should ask his hon. Friends. He will see all the figures there, and he can relate the importance of one industry to another,
  2384
  I will not insult hon. Members by attempting to read it to them, I am here to put forward a case.
  Mr. W. R. Williams: Will the hon. Member tell us what steps he would have taken?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: If hon. Members opposite, who evidently have not read the Economic Survey, would allow me to continue with my speech instead of putting inopportune questions, that is exactly what I was about to tell them. As I say, the first object is to guide labour into those industries where it is short. If those engaged in industries where there is a likelihood of redundance were told the facts about the industries short of labour, a great many of them would wish to be employed in those industries. The hon. Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. W. R. Williams) may smile, he evidently does not believe in people being told the facts. I wonder if he has ever seen any body of workers from an industrial centre taken down to an agricultural part of the country and shown how farming is carried on? Has he ever seen the effect of taking industrial workers on to the land, where they gallantly spend part of their holidays in helping with the harvest? Has he heard them say, "I did not know there was so much in it"?
  Mr. W. R. Williams: They do not stay there.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Hon. Members opposite do not believe in taking people down to the job and letting them face the facts. Of course not. How much has been done over the air to put across the case of what type of work would be open in those under-manned industries? How much has been done by way of films? How much has been done by organised visits from those industries, which we know will be over-manned shortly, of workers who would like to see how they would have to work in the under-manned industries? Let us take it a stage further down.
  What is being done in the juvenile advisory committees and by the juvenile employment officers in this matter? I have with me here two pieces of paper. One is a popular leaflet which is sent round to the schools and to the teachers on the question of juvenile employment. The other is an instruction sent to offices of the Ministry in all the different

  2385
  districts, and it tells all about the grants which can be paid and help given in starting a young man or girl in employment. It certainly tells them all that, but does not say a single word about the industries where labour is short and industries where there is obviously a greater future and better possibility of rapid promotion for those prepared to go into them; not a word——
  Mr. Bechervaise Mr. Bechervaise (Leyton, East) rose——
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I have given way twice, and I cannot give way again. I would go on far too low if I did. If we are to attempt to guide people into the industries which the nation needs to have working fully, we need to start at the beginning. We ought to show the parent, the child, and the teacher where opportunities lie. Then we might do something to help solve the problem in a practical way.
  There is another question of the training of those who wish to change their employment. I thought the hon. Member for Hulme (Mr. Lee) made an excellent suggestion when he said that possibly the time had come for trade unions, with vast sums at their disposal, to use that money for training for higher grades of skill. Why not start at the beginning? I think the hon. Member would agree that we might well build up a training scheme where those going newly into an industry when over the average age of entry, could get preliminary training necessary to remove or reduce the problem of the heavy overhead caused by additional supervision of the "green entry." That is the real problem today, particularly in the engineering industry. Is any real attempt being made to give the most elementary training to help those moving from one industry, in which they have become redundant, to another where there is a demand for their services? Has anyone worked out what it means to a person changing employment at an age which is above the normal age to enter an industry? I put this forward to the Minister, who at, the moment, may not be so interested in trade unions as some of his hon. Friends, and I hope it will be considered. I think it would be of very great value in starting off those who will be of great help to the country.
  Another matter is the use here of European workers. I would like the Minister to tell us what happens when those people are vetted and examined
  2386
  on the other side. I understand that the officers of his Ministry are responsible for seeing that as far as possible, the right men and women are put in the right jobs when they get over here, but I cannot help feeling that the job is not always done with quite the care and attention which should be shown.
  In a recent case, which is not the only one I know of, a man and his wife were employed on a farm in this country; the man as a rather low skilled agriculture worker and his wife to help generally on the farm. They were there for some months, and appeared to be quite happy, until the wife received a letter from a textile worker in the North of England which thoroughly unsettled the couple. The wife sent for the officer from the employment exchange, who, after a great deal of deciphering and unravelling, discovered that the letter from the textile worker reported that in her district there were certain machines standing idle because there were no workers skilled and experienced in running them. The wife naturally wanted to go and work those machines. Contact was made with the local Ministry of Labour officer, and the woman was immediately transferred, and the man removed from the agricultural employment. It turned out that the woman was of far greater value to this country than the man could ever be. He was a low skilled worker.
  When couples are moved from Europe, is inquiry always made about the real value of the experience each of them has? We may be losing some very valuable workers unless that happens. So much do we know of pre-war occupations and training in certain parts of Europe, that we know almost invariably both husband and wife went to work, and one might be far more skilled than the other.
  In general, I end just as I began. The problem is the same as in 1945. Nothing has been done by way of guidance on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to solve the problem. No inspiration has been given, and it does not matter how many factories we have filled, or how many pits we have filled, or how many docks we have filled, unless something better is done by way of guidance or telling the truth to the people, we shall not be helping the spirit of the people. On the spirit of each individual worker the spirit and mood of the nation depends.
  8.7 p.m.
  Mrs. Braddock: I am finding it particularly difficult in the Merseyside area to convince the people that there is a shortage of manpower and that there is a crisis. The reason I am finding it difficult is that at the moment there are 17,000-odd men, 3,300-odd women, and about boo juveniles, unemployed. I had hoped to get an up-to-date classification of the types of people who are registered under different headings, but I have been unable to do so. On Merseyside a large number of physically fit men have been out of work for any period up to about eight months. In those circumstances I think the Minister will agree that to talk about manpower shortage is very foolish, because all these men are very anxious to work. They are not anxious, however, to remain on 24s. a week, if single, or, if married, on 24s. for themselves, and 16s. for their wives.
  When the question of transferring them arises, they find themselves in difficulty, because numbers of them are married and have wives and children dependent upon them, and the wages they would earn outside the city area are quite inadequate to maintain the men themselves in the area to which they would be sent and to maintain their wives and children at home in Liverpool. Of course, if the housing situation were better and if we had been able to do more than we have done, or if, between the wars, those having at their disposal vast numbers of unemployed building workers had used that labour to meet the housing situation, the question of transfer would not need to be one of compulsion. When there were depressions in one area of the country, the people would have packed up and gone with their families to an area where there was employment, because they would have been able to get housing accommodation.
  It is very difficult indeed to explain the crisis in an area like Liverpool, with its steady mass of unemployed. But, let me say here, that the present unemployment figures of Liverpool are very much lower than they were at any period during the two depressions while the Conservative Government had control of industry in this country. Those figures are vastly reduced, but the problem is still there, and it must be dealt with. It can be dealt with by the Ministry of Labour, if
  2388
  they have to transfer a man, making certain that the amount he is able to send to his family is more than he could give them if he stayed in the area in receipt of unemployment pay. That position must be faced, because men do not like to go away from their families. They feel that they have a responsibility to their family. If we have to send them away for a temporary period, until the type of industry that we require on Merseyside can be brought there, then, obviously, we have to make certain that the families do not suffer from the financial point of view because the man has to keep two homes going.
  I said it was difficult to persuade people in Liverpool that there was a crisis. There is a very interesting table on page 41 of the Economic Survey, which gives us the total of the industrial population—the working population. It is estimated that at the end of 1947 the industrial workers in this country were approximately 20,500,000. I have added 4,300,000 children who are receiving family allowances to that number, and I estimate the total to be somewhere in the region of 25 million. What I am anxious to know—and what I hope the Minister will tell me—is, what are the other 23 million in the country doing who are not registered as anything at all? [An HON. MEMBER: "They live on the others."] What is happening? We have 23 million people—if our population, as it is suggested, is 48 million—who are not scheduled in an industrial or any other occupation. If there are 23 million people not registered as working people, then the 25 million people must be producing sufficient to keep those people who are not producing anything.
  Mr. Bramall: Has the hon. Lady included in her calculations the large number of first children who are not in receipt of family allowances, and also children over 14?
  Mrs. Braddock: Let us put another million and a half on the figure. It still leaves us with a large completely unemployed population. I am not talking about the unemployed, amounting to 300,000, who are included with the industrial workers. I am talking about the unemployed who are doing nothing productive at all. If we are to persuade, or try to persuade, people in an industrial area like Liverpool that there is an

  2389
  economic crisis, we have to give them some account of the 20 million whom the other 25 million are working to maintain.
  I have to admit that I cannot find any conviction myself in trying to persuade them that there is an economic crisis, because there is no evidence at all that the people who have always enjoyed additional pleasure, additional finance and additional amenities, are in any way doing without the things which they have always had as a privilege. When the working population, in an area which has 17,000 men unemployed, sees that there is no alteration in the living standards of those who have always been in the position of being able to live well, it is perfectly obvious that it is very difficult to persuade them that there is an industrial crisis. The reason that the most difficult industries are finding it hard to get the manpower or the womanpower required, is, I think, because the working classes of this country have commenced to take a leaf out of the book of those representative of the party opposite. They find that the least manual form work brings in the biggest financial return, and they are all making efforts to try to find the easiest way of making a living with the least possibility of industrial injury, industrial accident or difficulty. That is the situation that we have to face.
  We have to face it, not because we are responsible for producing it, but because that position has been produced by a century of dominating political control by the Conservative Party, and particularly by the capitalist employers in this country. They have created that position. They have made the industries which are the most difficult and the hardest in which to work, the most badly paid, and they have given the workers in them the most difficult and bad conditions in which to work. What has been done since 1945 in manning-up the industries that are short of labour represents a terrific achievement on the part of this Government. But we have still to face the position that while our internal position is good—it has never been better—our difficulty is to meet the export position.
  I believe we must take a strong line in this matter and check up on the 23 million people—let us call it 20 million—who are not doing productive work of any sort, or not working in any way, or making a contribution to the necessary industry of
  2390
  this country. I am not talking about the spivs. I think that word is overdone. I am talking about the people who have never at any time given any assistance at all to the industrial welfare of this country, but have always lived upon the industry and the ability of the other 23 or 25 million people. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the housewives?"] The housewife has a very difficult job. Her responsibility is to sec that her man is fed well enough and is able to go into industry and produce what is required.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: Are the housewives included in the 20 million, and are there not old people who are not working?
  Mrs. Braddock: just one moment. I know that hon. Members opposite do not like it and I know they will make efforts to get over it, but it is an actual fact. The housewife is not included, unless she is working. I am asking the Minister to try to designate to me who are the 23 million who are not included in these tables. We have to fact the position that there is in this country, and always has been, a very large percentage of people who do not contribute in any way to the industrial welfare of this country. They live on the labour and the industry of the workers. Sooner or later this position has to be faced, because we shall reach a time, not far distant, when it will be a physical impossibility for the industrial workers to keep up production sufficient to meet the needs of those who are not producing, and fulfil export needs as well. The situation, as I see it, is that if we are to persuade our industrial workers that there is a crisis—and I agree that there is a serious one—we have to try in some way to give an indication that every possible source of manpower and womanpower is being tapped. Even those who lave never at any time, up to the moment, taken part in the productive effort of this country, have to be brought in to increase the productive manpower.
  I believe that to be the position. I do not see any other way out of it, because I know, as a Socialist, as one Eying among the ordinary workers and being in contact with them, that while they cannot see any difference at all in the method of life of those who have always been privileged, they will never be persuaded that we are in the midst of an industrial

  2391
  crisis, and they will never be persuaded to produce more in the interests of the country as a whole. Some time, and I think in the not very far distant future, this position will have to be faced with a tremendous amount of courage and vigour. We shall have to do something in, the direction of saying that the time has gone completely when we in this country can carry anybody who is not a useful and productive citizen in the community, or we shall find ourselves in greater and graver difficulties than those we are in at the present moment.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. Wadsworth: I should have thoroughly enjoyed replying to some of the statements made by the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock), but I have made a pledge so far as time is concerned, and I will content myself with saying that it is acknowledged that the middle income groups in this country have made the greatest sacrifice in recent years so far as pleasure, amenities and income are concerned. To prove that point one has only to refer to some of the tables given in the "Economist." Furthermore, I cannot reconcile the hon. Lady's statement as regards a productive worker with the real situation because society has a way of demonstrating how valuable an individual is to the State by the amount of income that person receives. The dock workers and the agricultural workers are just as important as the cotton workers, the steel workers, etc. The hon. Lady must take the picture as a whole.
  I had not intended to say as much as that about the hon. Lady's speech, because I want to develop my own theme. The flow of argument tonight has developed on how we can best improve the efficiency of manpower. I do not want to continue on that theme, though that is the most essential part of a Debate of this kind. I wish to strike a note of warning—and I say this to the Minister—that the position of employment today cannot possibly continue. Since the end of the war we in this country have been living in an inflationary period. We have had the benefit of several contributory causes in improving the flow of money. There are the ex-Service men who have spent their gratuities in the last two years. There have been shorter hours of work.
  2392
  We have had the £1,000 million, to which reference has been made, chasing too few goods, and we have had every cause for maintaining a standard of demand such as we have never experienced before. Unfortunately, from many points of view, we cannot possibly continue in the future upon the basis of the full employment which we have enjoyed in the past two years. The Government themselves, against their own inclinations, I know, are deliberating creating unemployment. There is the cutting down of their capital expenditure programme. We have had one reference to the 17,000 building employees out of work in Liverpool.
  Mr. Keenan: May I correct the hon. Member? The figure of 17,000 is that of the male adults unemployed in the whole area in all trades.
  Mr. Wadsworth: I am afraid that I misunderstood the hon. Member. At all events, the Government, by their policy of cutting down capital expenditure, are contributing to unemployment. They are, for example, cutting down the number of houses contained in the original Government scheme, due, we are told by the Minister, to the lack of timber. I am not criticising this. I am only stating it as a fact.
  This has been unavoidable because of our economic position. Nevertheless, all this means that we shall not be able to maintain full employment. We shall have a certain amount of unemployment, it may be grave unemployment, in the future. The Government should consider the position now rather than wait until that emergency is upon us. In that regard, I ask the Government to consider whether they intend to continue bringing dispossessed people into this country. It is true that the dispossessed person has been most useful in many trades, in particular in agriculture, but I wonder whether at this particular stage, when we are likely to be faced with grave unemployment, it would be considered best to adjust that programme.
  Furthermore, we should at this stage begin to think about the question of mass emigration, family emigration. We shall have to get out of the habit of thinking of this country as one unit, and to look upon the whole of our Empire as being potential employers of our labour. Looking back into history we find that the

  2393
  population of this country was only six million in 1750. Then, in 1775 we had the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, the invention of the steam engine, and other inventions of a similar nature, which exploited our natural wealth of coal and iron, and increased our population enormously. It increased from six million in 1750 to 14 million at the end of the 18th century, and it developed rapidly during the 19th century. Today we have a population of 50 million.
  During the 19th century we were the one workshop of the world—we had no competitors. Since that time America, and before the war Japan and Germany, were coming into open competition, and we found that we could not sell our goods so readily. At present we can only produce four-tenths of our food. The whole economic balance of the nation appears to be out of gear. No nation can, I believe, maintain itself on a reasonable standard of life when it can produce only four-tenths of its food, unless it can secure to itself such a tremendous export trade as I believe to be beyond the bounds of possibility even for this country.
  Therefore, we shall have to look further to secure that employment for our people. I wonder whether hon. Members realise that the density of population, which in England and Wales is 740 per square mile, is only 43 per square mile in the wealthy United States. In Canada the figure is three and in Australia only two per square mile. These facts should strike home and make us realise that the Government should plan family emigration. Emigration will take place in any case. The young men will go—they always have done—the best and the cream of our manpower. It does not help the nation to allow only the young men to go. This course only adds the burden of an ageing population to those who are left. I ask the Government seriously to consider the problem of our manpower in relation to unemployment in the future, and plan family emigration to the great and wealthy lands within our own Empire.
  Recently, I returned from Canada. I was amazed at the natural wealth of the province of Alberta. I am sure that those hon. Members who heard the Minister for Economic Affairs for Alberta speaking during a visit to the Empire Parliamentary Association must have been
  2394
  deeply impressed. Alberta has the second largest oilfields in the Empire; some of the largest coalfielcls—much larger potentially than our own, with first-rate coal, and easy of access; a wonderful and rich-growing land, and mineral wealth of every kind. One can put clown a pipe into the ground in any part of Alberta and secure natural gas, or literally have one's own gasworks in one's own back yard. In a province with all that great wealth, there is a population of only one million. The Government must think of that and, before great unemployment comes upon us, must seize the opportunity to think deeply about this matter of family emigration; about whether they can maintain full employment—or reasonable employment—in this country in the future; and consider what other steps they must take to secure full employment, bearing in mind the possibilities of our great wealth and resources within our own Commonwealth.
  8.35 p.m.
  Mr. Edelman: I listened with alarm to the hon. Gentleman advocating the defeatist policy of mass emigration. More than that, when he referred to Britain's glories in the past I could not help thinking that, if we w ere to reduce our population to a figure comparable with that of the 18th century, our prestige and greatness also would proportionately diminish. The strength of this country and its increase during the 19th century ran exactly parallel with the increase in Britain's industrial power and the lead taken during the industrial revolution. The fact that we were able to become the workshop of the world and supply other countries with the manufactured goods they needed to carry on—an economy based not merely on rural and pastoral products but on the manufactures of our skilled manpower—raised Britain to the eminence which she enjoyed during the 19th century and continues to enjoy today.
  It is quite clear that if, as the Australian Minister of Immigration recommends, Britain's population should be reduced by 10 million by mass emigration, one can foresee a Britain in which factories will be deserted, fields will be overgrown and houses will lie in decay owing to the absence of the population which should inhabit it. A reversion to pastoral economy would inevitably mean

  2395
  a serious decline in the power, the prestige and in the importance of this country.
  At the same time, we must recognise that today there is a steady and an increasing stream of emigration. Unhappily, those people who are going abroad are in many cases the most enterprising and the most skilled. If that process continues and we lose those very few people whose productivity proportionately brings this country its greatest return, we may find that we are left with the semi-skilled, the unskilled, the elderly dependents and all those people who are not productive in the country's economy, but who are dependent on the work of others. Clearly, the more the most skilled and most efficient people drain away from this country, the less able are we likely to be to reach our export targets and so maintain our standard of life.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Buckrose (Mr. Wadsworth) that what is vitally necessary today is an emigration and an immigration policy by the Government. At present we see a two-fold movement of emigrants and immigrants. Coming to this country are displaced persons, to many of whom we are glad to offer hospitality but who, nevertheless, for the most part bring only unskilled hands to the unskilled tasks which do, nevertheless, cry out for labour. Moving in the other direction we see a contrary process. We see some of our most skilled people going abroad, enriching the Dominions and Colonies, but correspondingly weakening the power of this country. It may well be that within quite a short time, perhaps a year or two, those unskilled tasks, in agriculture most particularly, which are today so important, may not have nearly the same significance for the economy of this country. If, as seems likely, there are abundant harvests all over the world, we might well want to revert, at a certain point, to a policy of importing basic foods rather than concentrating on their production at home. So we may find ourselves left with a completely distorted labour force—the unskilled hands—while the most skilled workers will have gone abroad.
  For these reasons I ask my right hon. Friend whether this evening he will indicate what is the broad policy of the Government on emigration: Do they encourage
  2396
  emigration? Have they liaison with the Dominions in order that there should be a plan for the whole family of British nations? Or is the process to be simply anarchic, with everyone just packing up their bags and going? We can well afford to lose many of the people who leave this country because they claim that austerity is too hard to bear. If they want to take their place in the boat, they must be prepared to pull with the rest of us. I am quite sure no one will regret their departure, but we certainly do not want to see the skilled men, engineers and technicians going abroad because they feel that they have the opportunity of a wider and more ample life.
  Mr. Wadsworth: I have listened with great interest to what the hon. Member has said, but is he not taking too parochial a point of view in looking upon this country as a complete unit, instead of as part of the perfect whole?
  Mr. Edelman: I accept the view of the hon. Member but I believe, nevertheless, that Britain must continue to remain the heart and the arsenal of the whole of the British group of nations. For that reason, I think it vitally important that the greatest concentration of skill and capacity should remain in this country.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to a matter which I must confess has caused me considerable concern. I refer to the prospect of unemployment which is contained in the Economic Survey. The figure of 450,000 as the prospective number of men likely to be unemployed at the end of 1948, although it is rather tucked away at the bottom of a long table of statistics, is necessarily one which must cause anxiety and concern to everyone in this country. While I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) that one should not exaggerate the amount of unemployment which is likely to develop, nevertheless, it is a fact that, owing to certain specific causes which I will detail in a moment, unemployment will exist in this country and, as forecast in that document, it is likely to reach a quite significant figure by the end of 1948.
  The most serious aspect of the matter is that the increase in unemployment is likely to take place in those key industries which are vitally necessary not only for

  2397
  national recovery at home but also for the export market. In particular, I am thinking of the engineering and shipbuilding industries. We have a target proposing for the engineering industry an increase in production by 17 per cent. in 1948 over the last quarter of 1947. That target must be reached with a diminished force and with diminished resources. The point I want to put to my right hon. Friend is contained in the question: What steel supplies is industry likely to get during 1948? I realise that in a Debate on manpower it might not seem relevant to talk about steel, but the fact remains that steel is the conditioning factor which will determine whether there is to be substantial unemployment in this country.
  Already, particularly in the Midlands and in the engineering and motor industries, we are beginning to feel the effect of lack of adequate supplies of steel. Even if the target set for the steel industry during the coining year is reached, there is no guarantee that there will be sufficient steel in the Midlands to maintain full employment in the engineering and motor industries. For that reason, I want to ask my right hon. Friend whether, in the negotiations for supplies under the Marshall plan, any provision has been made for the import of steel from America. We all welcome the consumer goods which may be made available by means of American aid, but I am sure that any one in this House or in the country would willingly sacrifice the greater part of those consumer goods if, instead of them, we could have a million tons of steel for our national industries.
  Having that steel, we may be able to reach the export targets which will determine whether we will be able to maintain our standard of life. Unless we have the steel that is necessary, clearly we will not be able to maintain our standard of life. I submit that it would be far better to have the steel which we need for conversion into high value products, and to send them abroad in order to earn suitable currency to pay for the import of food than merely to have some kind of dole of food from America which we will consume and that will be the end of it.
  Further, I would like to ask my right hon. Friend whether, once we have got
  2398
  the steel, we are going to put it to the right use. During the past year or so we have been concentrating on building up certain of our engineering products and our motor industry for purposes of export, but we are finding in the motor industry that not only are we reaching a general saturation point in exports but, in addition, certain firms who have concentrated on the production of specialised cars are finding that they cannot sell their products abroad at all. Therefore, we already have a most significant redundancy in the towns in the Midlands which are concerned with the production of motorcars. I do not want to see these firms go out of production. They have done a useful job in getting together highly expert teams of engineers and technicians whose services in converting the raw material into a high value product are relatively of greater vane to this country than those of many people who are producing articles which are able to be sold abroad. From the national point of view, it is desirable that those teams should be kept together.
  The fact remains, however, that most firms have not yet had guidance as to what they should convert their factories to in the event either of decline in the amount of steel made available or a shutting down of their export markets. I would only mention that in some cases—I have in mind one Coventry firm—employers and industrialists have tried of their own accord to turn over from a product which consumes a lot of steel and gets a relatively low return, to a product which will bring in a high return in proportion to the amount of steel used. The case I have in mind is of a motor manufacturer who, finding that there was difficulty in selling his cars abroad, of his own initiative is now producing printing presses which bring a very considerable return for the amount of steel which is employed.
  I want to put two points to my right hon. Friend. First, I suggest that he should try and divert to other areas the movement of workers into these engineering industries where they have the belief that there are high wages and a greater demand for their services than is actually the case. I am sure that it would be the experience of most hon. Members for Midland constituencies, that there is a steady attraction of workers to the Midlands from all parts of the country who, on arrival, find not only

  2399
  difficulty in accommodation but actual difficulty in obtaining work, because the market is saturated and because of the steel shortages. That is a most vital conditioning factor.
  The second point is to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is now making provision against the possibility that the shortage of steel may continue with the result that those industries which have been built up, and have built up their labour force, on the assumption that there is to be a large and continuing supply of steel, will be able to maintain full employment in their factories. Unless that is done now, unless some attempt is made to provide for a contraction of the amount of work to be made available in the great engineering areas, it may well be that new regions of chronic unemployment will have been created.
  To conclude, I would say that, although from the other side of the House there has been an attempt to indict my right hon. Friend and his Ministry during the past few years, I, for my part, would gladly leave the verdict to the workers of this country, because in no case have they enjoyed so much full employment. I believe that the word "over-employment" which an hon. Member opposite used is a verbal monstrosity and is a conception which would never be acceptable to workers who have experienced long spells of under-employment. These workers have enjoyed the benefit of my right hon. Friend's enlightened policy and will be convinced that in future he will take account of the difficulties already indicated in the White Paper and will provide against them.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Williams:I would like to add a few words on the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale), who quoted from the White Paper a statement that labour is not at present, nor is it likely to be in 1948; the limiting factor in economic activity as a whole. I think that there is going to be a tremendous demand on industry in the next few years, and I do not, therefore, anticipate unemployment except for one factor and that is a lack of raw materials. If there is a lack of raw materials, which seems to be a possibility according to the
  2400
  White Paper—which speaks of a possibility of a cut in raw materials from dollar sources—it that is the policy of the Government, it is an intolerable policy and almost a criminal one. If we want to earn dollars, we must spend dollars. If we ask a horse to work harder and then say that we cannot afford the oats with which to feed him, the result will be that the horse will work less hard and possibly face death before very long.
  If we cannot get the materials to supply our manpower, we are really very nearly approaching the end. It is vital, therefore, that whatever else the Government do, they must find the means by which these raw materials can be purchased. Given the materials, we must then have more incentives. I have advocated in the past that we must have a reduction in Income Tax if we are to stimulate people to work harder. I want to see Income Tax on overtime taken completely away, because I believe that the available manpower, from the boss downwards, will then put their best foot forward to produce what the country wants at the present moment, which is to increase its export trade. I would also say that, besides incentives, we must get rid of disincentives, and by that I mean the direction of labour, which is the worst of all. It is no use sending unwilling people to places where they do not want to go, because they will not work their best and will only make a bad job of it.
  Finally, I want to say that it is imperative, as we have heard from hon. Members opposite today, that Government expenditure, particularly in the Civil Service, must be cut down. The Government should know better than I do the best way of doing that, but I will give only one small example. It is in this document which I hold in my hand, issued by the British Electricity Authority. This is done in a worthy cause—finding out what facilities there are for welfare in the various electricity undertakings—but it covers 10 foolscap pages and contains 159 questions. If it just asked what sports grounds there are, what shower bath facilities or canteens there are, well and good; and if then it was found that there was anything wrong, a civil servant could be sent down to find out what it was. Instead of that, it asks such things as what are the salaries of the assistant welfare officers, if there are any cheap rates for joining the Automobile Associa-

  2401
  tion, the detailed arrangements for serving tea, particulars of netball facilities and details of card games and equipment. These statistics are going to be collected in Whitehall, instead of being decentralised and done locally, and, if that is what government from Whitehall means, we are coming to a very sorry pass. Surely, it is Whitehall that can save manpower? That is one small example of the way in which the Government could do something to cut down their own waste of manpower.
  8.56 p.m.
  Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe: May I begin by apologising to the House, and especially to the hon. Member for Hulme (Mr. Lee), for my absence for a short period at the beginning of the Debate? I think the hon. Member will take it from me that it was, indirectly, in the service of the House, but I regret my absence, though I got a full report of what he had said.
  I think it is important that we should, of all, look at the overall position, and then deal with the basic industries and seek to make some contribution to the improvement of the position which we now find. With regard to the overall position, I am sorry that the hon. Member tot the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) is not here, because I did not agree, and I do not think that many hon. Members on the other side of the House agreed, with what appeared to be an attempt to put 23 million people in a sort of parasitic class. I thought the hon. Lady had forgotten—I am very glad to see that she has returned to the House—I thought she had forgotten that, in the 23 million people with whom she dealt, there must be included, not only the first children, who do not come into the children's allowances scheme, but the housewives, the old people who have done a thoroughly good lifetime of service to the State, and many of those who are engaged in occupations that do not come into the Table on page 44 of the Economic Survey.
  Mrs. Braddock: May I interrupt the right hon. and learned Gentleman? My point was that they were being maintained by the present number of productive workers.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Even so, I do not think that it is a fair point, because,
  2402
  in my view, the housewife makes a contribution to production by the work which she carries on, and the same is true of a great number of the categories who are not in the Table which the hon. Lady took as a limiting factor. It would be a pity if it went out from this House that it was at all a general view that those 23 million people should be put in anything approaching a parasitic class.
  The other point on the overall position which I should like to take up was a remark of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) that, in his view, there was a shortage of manpower and no maldistribution. I contest this point, and I approach the matter very much in the same way as the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. D. Williams) did in the penetrating speech which he made on this occasion. The difference between this Economic Survey and that of 1947 is that, whereas in the 1947 Survey there was a call for the manning-up of basic industries, and for greater production and harder work, the tone of the present White Paper is set by the quotation from paragraph 186 which my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge (Mr. G. Williams) mentioned, that labour is not at present, and is unlikely to be in 1948, the limiting factor in economic activity as a whole.
  The White Paper goes on in the next sentence but one to say that that is not true of coal, agriculture and textiles. I agree with the hon. Member for Neath that those are the industries to which we should pay first regard. We must face the fact that, with regard to coal, there has been a falling short of 12,000, or 30 per cent. of tile estimated increase. With regard to agriculture, the falling off of 30,000 is 75 per cent, of the estimated increase. In textiles, although there has only been a falling off of 9,000, that, according to the table, is for both textiles and clothing. As the Government require a reduction of 31,000 in clothing and an increase in textiles by the enormous figure of 108,000, about which I shall say more in a moment, there has obviously not been a satisfactory increase in textiles either.
  These are figures from which we cannot get away. The figures on the other side—and I will add one to those chosen by the hon. Member for Neath—which are most remarkable are, first of all, those of the public service in which we were promised a year ago a reduction of 80,000, that is,

  2403
  in the three categories, Civil Service, other national government and local government personnel. Instead of a reduction of 80,000, we have an increase in these categories of 14,000. In other words, there has been a failure to the extent of no fewer than 94,000 of the undertaking given to this House a year ago. The right hon. Gentleman will remember the Debate that we had on 19th March last year, almost exactly a year ago.
  With regard to distribution, we again have the enormous figure of 178,000 instead of 55,000, and with regard to building, despite the fact, that it was known that there were going to be cuts, we again find that industry has absorbed 75,000 instead of the 50,000 claimed. It is true that the labour employed in every main industrial group has increased but, and this is the vital point, the opportunity that this gave for redistribution of labour between essential and non-essential trades was not used. I believe that this question of redistribution has become a decisive factor for the national future.
  Let us try to look at the general position—and if the right hon. Gentleman can correct me on this, I tell him with the greatest frankness I shall be very happy—and this is as I see it. The target figure which is set by the White Paper is for increases in mining, agriculture and textiles of some 205,000. In the other groups in which increases are asked for, they are something like 80,000. That is, we are seeking for a figure of about 290,000 in increases. What is the position on the other side? We are seeking for deductions from building and building materials of no fewer than 179,000, and deductions from the other industries where deductions are to be made—clothing, food, drink, tobacco, distribution and local government—of 115,000. That is, again, a figure of 294,000. But although these figures appear to balance, one has to remember that there is allowed for, in the immediate future, a figure of unemployment of 150,000. That is, one has only cut out of the industries that are going to be reduced a total of 140,000 towards nearly 300,000 who are required.
  One is left—and the right hon. Gentleman can tell me if there is anything I have omitted—with the foreign workers, with those who are unoccupied but do not appear to be expected by the White
  2404
  Paper to enter industry, or by further cuts, to fill up a figure of 150,000. The right hon. Gentleman and I have joined issue on many occasions on the question of the direction of labour and the concomitant matters, and I assure him at once that I am not going to repeat tonight one of those struggles which we have both enjoyed so much in the past, but I give him—because this is one of the angles of the picture which we must bear in mind —an article in the "Manchester Guardian" of 16th March which said that his totals for registration were 19,236 women up to 25 years of age, and 4,053 men up to 41 years of age. Whether or not the "Manchester Guardian" is justified in saying that he has given no indication of what is going to be done with them, the fact remains that it is chicken feed in this problem. That is the point that worries us.
  The same applies to the results of direction. That is the overall picture which, as I say, we have been unable to disregard. How are we going to deal with it, because that is the point which has interested everyone here? I say—and here again I think I have the support of the hon. Member for Neath and the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper) on the other side of the House—that there must be a real cut, a real attempt to cut, the figures of those employed in the public service and local government service groups—that is, in administration.
  Mr. D. J. Williams: On the question of releasing a large number of civil servants from Government employment, I take it that the right hon. and learned Member wants, not to save the taxpayers' money by not having to pay those people, but to add them to the productive forces of the country. Does he think that merely sacking them from the Civil Service would drive them into productive industry?
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I think that a great many could find places in productive industry, some in the administrative sphere and some in employment which is, so to speak, on the verge, between that and the other grades. I should like to develop that point, because it has given me serious thought, not only in relation to the national position which we are primarily discussing tonight, but because I am very interested, as is the hon. Mem-

  2405
  ber, in the human problem of what will happen to these people whom we might seem to be disposing of rather airily from the human point of view. I want to develop that aspect for a moment, because it is extremely serious.
  If we take—as I think it is fair to do—the general trend before the war, there was an increase between 1929 and 1939 of from, roughly, 300,000 to 400,000, whereas between 1939 and 1st January, 1947, there was an increase of from just under 400,000 to 722,000 in the non-industrial Civil Service alone. Between January and April of last year that figure fell by some 5,000, and there were cuts in the Services and the supply departments of the Fighting Services. But what is the resultant position? We have Forces of 730,000 men, which are stated to need 230,000 non-industrial civil servants in the Defence Departments, together with industrial staffs not directly engaged in production and research. I cannot see why it is necessary to have one civil servant for every three men in the Forces. That is an indefensible position, and specific cuts could be made there.
  I emphasise the point made by the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough that it is important to get reductions in groups directly under Government control, not only for the absolute result, but because of the admirable example it would give all over that field. We come back to the statement made by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer over a year ago, that the Government hoped to get a reduction of 80,000. Instead, there has been this meagre figure in the group of non-industrial civil servants, and an overall rise in the group as a whole.
  I ask the Minister to note the following. I do not ask for his agreement, but I do want to follow it out, although I am not for a moment suggesting that I want the Debate to hinge on the subject. There are, at any rate, three categories of controls: controls which deal with personal freedom, which I have endeavoured to show have not produced results; controls which interfere with industry, such as the go controls in the building trade, which were cut down, if my recollection is right, to 23; and a large number of controls which are the basis of unnecessary criminal offences at the present time, which I am sure could be revised and done away with, thus
  2406
  effecting a saving of manpower and the release of people who are dealing with industrial matters—matters which could be dealt with by industry and commerce through their own associations—who would then be able to go into industry and commerce themselves. These are two positive lines which demand exploration at the present time.
  I now wish to pass to the coal industry. The right hon. Gentleman will agree with the importance of this industry. Be may remember, in the Debate which took place almost a year ago, that I said that coal was a harder currency than dollars. I think that everyone will agree with that today Coal is absolutely essential for the recuperation of Europe, and is of primary consideration from the industrial point of view. Let us look at the position. I have already said that recruitment for the coal industry is less than the target for 1947 by 12,000, or 30 per cent. It is now hoped to recruit another 42,000 for 1948, but we are already one quarter of the way through the year. It is most important, therefore, that we should know how we stand in this matter. In paragraph 88 of the Economic Survey, it is said that the chief reason for the improvement in the coal industry is the better output per manshift, which has increased from 1.04 tons to 1.07 tons, or three-fifths of a cwt., and to the increase of 15,000 in the labour force. Despite that rise, however, we are still considerably behind the prewar figure, even on a manshift of 1.14.
  I was very much struck by the statement in the Economic Survey for 1947, that in the long view—and in my opinion in the immediate view—an increased output per man-year is the only way to expand production and give a higher standard of living. How do we stand in that regard? Last year, the output went up to 262 tons per man-year, or 265 taking the 53-week year. According to last year's Economic Survey, the output per man-year was far below prewar. Prewar it was 302 tons.
  Mr. David Jones: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will recognise that the mines are much older now; it means a longer haul, which has some effect on output.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I quite agree that that is so in some of the mines. The hon. Member will realise, of course, that the

  2407
  position of all the mines in the country is being generally looked into. There are other mines, however, where the position is still extremely good, and where mechanisation has taken place. I do not want to make any attack, but I am trying to deal with the actual position. The position is that we are still in the same position as the Economic Survey stated last year, being far behind prewar in the output per man, and we have still a very great leeway in recruitment to make up. I want the right hon. Gentleman to tell us how it is hoped, having fallen short of the recruitment last year by 30 per cent., to attain the target for this year; and if the Government do not attain the target how are we going to deal with the situation without the coal which is urgently required?
  Next, I will turn to agriculture, and I should like to be informed of the steps it is proposed to take in dealing with it. As I understand the comparative position, the figures are given for mid-1947-mid-1948. We are now nearing the end of March, 1948, and the right hon. Gentleman has got three months to produce the numbers for which he is budgeting up to mid-1948. Last year, at mid-1947, we had 1,045,000 civilian workers, including 6,000 foreign workers and an additional 60,000 German prisoners of war. That gave a total of 1,105,000 in agriculture. In the middle of 1948, in addition to the total of 1,045,000 civilian workers we are budgeting for another 37,000 foreign workers, either Poles or European volunteer workers, and 18,000 voluntary German labourers, who are ex-prisoners of war. We must know the exact figure now, because this is the figure which is to prevail next summer, a very important period of the year.
  Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether 18,000 ex-prisoners of war are going to stay—for we must know. What arrangements have been made for the additional 37,000 voluntary workers? Where are they going to live? Are they going into camps or into houses, and if so, what houses; and what arrangements have been made?
  As I suggested last year, are we binding them to the essential and basic work for which they are obtained? Unless tonight we get assuring information on these points, how can we view with
  2408
  equanimity the position of our agricultural labour force in mid-1948, which is three months' time? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will say whether he has been able to follow the suggestions that were made last year as to the use, housing, and retention of a section of that force.
  I now come to textiles, and again I will try to deal with the matter factually and as briefly as I can. The White Paper asks for a 40 per cent. increase in exports of textiles. If we are to get that increase and to carry on our programme it is absolutely vital that this enormous increase of 108,000 workers from 652,000 to 760,000, should be made; otherwise the export target becomes illusory. We want to know—because this is of great importance—which of the various suggestions made in paragraph 149 of the White Paper have begun to be put into operation. I agree with the recruiting campaign, but I would like this addition to it. It is essential, if we are to have a recruiting campaign, that we should encourage the children to go into textile work. My own knowledge goes to this extent, that in textiles more than in anything else it is necessary to be started and brought up in the job. The recruiting campaign ought to be directed to that point.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Shephard) made an extremely pertinent suggestion with regard to the provision of nurseries in addition to the canteen accommodation. Unless businesses are to be allowed to treat these as an expense at this time and for this purpose, it will be very difficult to spare the money for the purposes which my hon. Friend pointed out are essential, and the success of which in his own works, he described to the House. Again, we want to know about the recruitment of foreign labour and there are other points about which the right hon. Gentleman will, I hope, be able to inform us. There are those of such pressing importance as what are termed in the White Paper:
  "Further measures…to restrain the growth of other industries and services in the textile areas."
  Does that mean that by stopping supplies, or some other means, the right hon. Gentleman will deal with, say, the light engineering industry in Lancashire in order to transfer the women who have

  2409
  gone into it into textiles? Is some practical scheme envisaged by those words? If so, it is a very serious matter. It is extremely serious for those who have gone into those industries. We must know. This is our only opportunity of learning whether the situation is so serious that some measure as stringent as that has to be taken.
  I am very anxious that I should not trespass on the time of the right hon. Gentleman. I have tried to cover the ground of the basic industries and to make my suggestions, and apply them as specifically as I could, as to the cutting down of the number of national employees, but I want the right hon. Gentleman to remember two matters which I have approached in previous Debates, and which, I hope he will agree, I have tried to approach from a constructive and non-controversial viewpoint. The first is that of restrictive practices. We were all most impressed by almost the concluding words of the 1047 White Paper:
  "There is now no place for industrial arrangements which restrict production, prices or employment. Such regulations and traditions grew up as a means of protecting those engaged in industry from the effects of a shortage of work and of empty order books."
  May I say at once, as I have said before, that I think that does not apply as a unilateral measure for a moment; I am approaching it as applying to both sides of industry. However, I want to know what has been done to implement that necessary action which the 1947 White Paper commanded. How do these words and this proclaimed endeavour to get rid of restrictive practices fit in with the three basic industries I have mentioned, and also with the conceptions that, apart from these three basic industries, labour is no longer the rub? The right hon. Gentleman will see the difficulty—it is a very real one—that if one is saying, as this White Paper rather suggests, that labour is not the rub except in the three industries with which I have dealt, then it might be thought that that important statement in the last paragraph of the 1947 Economic Survey had ceased to be important. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will do everything possible to bring such practices into the light of day and, in that way, make a great number of them disappear.
  The other question, a live question and my last, is with regard to hours of work.
  2410
  In September of last year the right hon. Gentleman's Department issued a statement as to the time rates of wages and hours of labour which I have obtained from the London and Cambridge Economic Survey. The result of that statement is that in III industries where there are minimum rates and normal hours which have been agreed, in 56 of these with the hours unchanged, 32 had more wages, 21 had no change and three had a fall; but in 55 examples, where hours had been reduced broadly from the range of 48, 47, 46 to 45 or 44, 44 had wage increases, six were unchanged and five had fallen. Now I find that difficult to square with the general policy which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put forth, unless of course they are merely to deal with the time rate, and then I understand it so far; but, on the broader question, these figures are really inconsistent with an increase of production and require serious consideration, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reassure us, if he can, on this broad point because, indeed, we require it. I have examined it in no spirit except that of seeking the truth in the estimates which the right hon. Gentleman formed for the end of 1947.
  We have found that both ways in important groups of industries these estimates were completely wrong. In the basic industries there was an over-estimate of the number coming in, and in the industries where there should have been a reduction in order to secure help, the numbers have gone up. We want to know from the right hon. Gentleman why the 1948 figures are expected to have a better fate. There is no doubt that this Economic Survey depends to a large extent on these provisos being fulfilled. It is a serious matter when there has been such a failure in the past. We must know, if we are to be sure that the utmost is being done for the economic state of our country, that we can expect better things for the present year. In that spirit, and in that great problem, we call on the right hon. Gentleman tonight.
  9.36 p.m.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I appreciate very fully the tone in which the Debate was opened this afternoon, and that on which it has ended. I will do my best to answer all the questions put to me, although I have a lot of interesting facts and figures I would like to have

  2411
  given, without being asked. However, I think it right and proper to answer queries.
  The right hon. Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale), who opened the Debate with a speech which he called his second maiden speech, and which I would call a "grass widow's speech," was kind enough to make one of those generous personal allusions which are a feature of this House. He made a kindly reference to me as being associated with him in the printing industry. He said I had been missed in that industry, and that one of the good things about the ending of this Government would be that I would go back to the industry. I must tell him that I am "time-expired" this year, and that when I leave this job, I shall go on the shelf.
  The right hon. Gentleman made an interesting suggestion about changing the name of the Ministry of Labour. I do not like to give assurances, but I will give this one; I will not attempt to change the name, which was given to the Ministry when it was first created, and which has seen it through a great many troubles. I do not think people believe that it is mixed up with a political party because of the term "Labour." The right hon. Gentleman said that this Ministry must avoid party politics because of the confidence it enjoys in industry. In the ordinary political field the Minister must be as free as anyone else to take part in party politics, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Ministry itself, in all its associations and connections with industry, endeavours to keep a completely impartial view, so that when we have to consult employers and workers, separately or jointly, they can rest assured that the Ministry, through its capable and devoted officials, is acting completely impartially, and is not swayed by political opinion. Many things have been said tonight about the Civil Service. I think it is generally agreed that they honestly and honourably serve the Government of the day, to whatever party they belong.
  The right hon. Gentleman made a similar reference to the National Arbitration Tribunal. It ought to be more widely known that the National Arbitration Tribunal could have come to an end automatically nearly two years ago,
  2412
  but both sides in industry, employers and trade unions, said, "We do not like compulsory arbitration, but do not take away the order yet." They had another chance last year, in one of the Acts of Parliament we pass in order to continue or to end orders, and again they said, "Let us keep it going." Here we have both sides of the industry, though they do not like compulsory arbitration, asking that this National Arbitration Tribunal, which is a compulsory tribunal, shall remain. That shows the great confidence that particular body has gained, and I hope that it will continue.
  Another indication that confidence in this Ministry is being maintained is found in the operation of what the right hon. Gentleman urged should be the continued policy of the Ministry namely to persuade, and not to compel, people to go into the industries into which we wish to direct them. I use that word in the sense in which it was used before we accepted this last power of direction. The fact is that we have been placing 80,000 people weekly under this Control of Engagement order. We have filled 200,000 first preference vacancies, and we have placed 1,630,000 generally in industry, and in nine or 10 weeks 17 people only have had to be directed, which shows that they will listen to guidance and persuasion——
  Mr. McCorquodale: Then why not give up the direction?
  Mr. Isaacs: We are told we ought to do something. Hon. Members opposite have been asking questions as to what we are going to do about filling these vacancies and getting this labour. We have got to have it one way or the other, but there is this indication that people are being treated honestly and decently and courteously by the local employment exchanges. Otherwise if there had been, any complaint, the local Member of Parliament would have heard about it, and I am sure that I should have heard about it as well. It is a tribute to the local officers that they have been able to do this work without much trouble.
  I draw the attention of the House to the fact that the position we are in today was not unknown in the days of the Coalition Government. There was a White Paper entitled "Employment Policy," Cmd. 6527, which was presented to Parliament in 1944 by the then Minister of

  2413
  Reconstruction in the Coalition Government, Lord Woolton. He made two provisos which are absolutely true, and which show that the situation today is not the fault of the present Government, but is the fault of the sequence of consequences that have emerged from the war. He said:
  "There will, however, be no problem of general unemployment in the years immediately after the end of the war in Europe. In this transition period our problems, though no less difficult, will be different. It will be a period of shortages."
  Lord Woolton said that, and I understand that a lot of people put a great deal of reliance in what he says. Let us say he was just as right then as he is now. He also said:
  "In order to direct the efforts of industry towards the right tasks in the right order, it will be necessary to establish certain broad priorities, and to enforce them for a time by means of the issue of licences, the allocation of raw materials and some measure of control over the labour and staff required for industry."
  I wish I could have found this extract from Lord Woolton when we were having the previous Debates on the Control of Engagement Order, but I pray it in aid now, although it is a little late for the purpose.
  I come now to the penetrating examination of these figures by the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe), and the problem he set me. If I cannot give the answer in the minor details, I hope I can satisfy him on the general principle. The right hon. and learned Gentleman himself said that the opportunity for distribution between essential and non-essential trades has not been taken. It was not taken till about six or eight months ago. Then we had to take this measure of control for the redistribution of manpower between the essential and non-essential industries. We have far more power than we are using. It is hoped to continue to keep in the background this further power which we have. For example, at present those people who come to the employment exchange and say "Find me a job" are the only people to whom we apply guidance and, in the last resort, direction. We have the power to go into places and say, "We shall take these people from this job and send them into that job." We do not want to do it. Not only is it a little further infringement of the liberty of the individual, some of which has to
  2414
  be given up at this time; it is also interference with management and with the employer. Though we might not think that work is as essential as something else, it is essential to them. So, although we have that power, we are using it only to the extent I have described.
  I would like to clear up a further point which was referred to by the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby and my hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper), who dealt with the question of the Civil Service. I have no comment to make about the terms of the criticism of the right hon. and learned Gentleman on this matter, but I think that my hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough went a little further than was fair. He quoted letters from civil servants, some of whom are in the Civil Service and others of whom have retired, who have written telling him how the Civil Service should he rearranged so that it could work properly. If the writers are in the Civil Service, they might have brought the subject forward there. As for those who have retired, we know that people outside see a lot of things which they think ought to be done.
  My hon. Friend said that 50 per cent. of those at the top level are inefficient. They are not here to defend themselves, but if those at the top level in other Departments are as good as those at the top level in the Departments with which I have been connected, they are 100 per cent. efficient. My hon. Friend talked about the little bug on the lesser bug. I wonder whether a similar metaphor might not be preferred, and whether my hon. Friend thought that he was a flea on the Civil Service dog. With some knowledge of the Civil Service from the inside, which has been gained in the past two or three years, and having taken part in a careful check and examination of Civil Service activities, I am quite confident that there cannot be any real reduction in their numbers. If we reduce the services which they are given to perform, we can reduce their number, but it is perfectly clear that the recent figures covering national Government service and local government service do not sufficiently make clear the facts.
  There is a substantial number of non-industrial civil servants in the Service and Supply Departments who are engaged in

  2415
  terminal activities in connection with the war. The right hon. and learned Member for West Derby drew attention to the proportion of civil to Service personnel in the Services. I was satisfied, when I saw the evidence, that they are clearing up. It takes a long time to clear up accounts and other matters, but the matter is being watched and they will not be kept there longer than is necessary to do the clearing up. In 1947 the national Government service figures went down by 41,000 and those of local government services went up by 53,000. That is how the balance is arrived at in that respect. It is not my purpose at the moment to defend the numbers in national Government service, but Acts passed by this House from time to time, and the coming to full fruition of other Measures passed in the Coalition Government period, bring them additional duties, and makes increased staff necessary.
  Mr. Cooper: I do not want to be a flea in my right hon. Friend's ear, though I may be a flea on the back of the Civil Service; but how does he account for the fact that the two years when the value of the £ fell to the lowest figure, were the two years when the Civil Departments were at their highest, and that even when unemployment figures stood at over 2,000,000 the value of the £ was considerably higher. Does not that show the close connection between the size of the bureaucracy and the economic standard of the country?
  Mr. Isaacs: What unemployment has to do with the value of the £ and the flea on the dog's back, I do not know.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to textiles, to coal and to agriculture. As far as recruits for the coal industry are concerned, we are moving towards our target. I am wondering, however, whether the right hon. Gentleman has got the head of the column correctly, because he referred to the figures at mid-1948.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: That was only for agriculture.
  Mr. Isaacs: I am referring to the figures on page 44 of Table XXI for the end of 1948. I do not have the mid-1948 figures.
  Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, that figure was
  2416
  only for agriculture. If he refers to the manpower section of the White Paper, on agriculture, he will find it is taken at mid-1947. I specially restricted it to that.
  Mr. Isaacs: I felt there was a misunderstanding between us somewhere. So far as coal is concerned, we are proceeding towards the end-of-the-year target. It will be noticed that 790,000 is the target figure for total manpower in the collieries, but the figures on which I have to work are the numbers on the colliery books—750,000. We have been helped very much by the mineworkers' organisations. They have helped us in our recruiting campaign; they have dug out the names and addresses of their members who have left the industry, and have got them back; they have broken down—although not much breaking down was needed—the much advertised hostility to working with foreign workers; they are now working in the mines with Poles and European volunteer workers. Before my right hon. colleague the Parliamentary Secretary went abroad to seek for further labour, the Mineworkers' Federation agreed even to work with the Volksdeutsche. Their agreement to work with foreign workers in the mines will help us towards our final target, and we are certainly proceeding that way.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke of textiles. Before coming to figures, I would refer to the need for encouraging children to take an interest in the industry. I am glad to say that a great deal of work in this direction has been done locally by the Ministry of Labour, education and school authorities, employers of labour and other organisations. Exhibitions of interest have been staged, showing how the cotton grows on the trees, and following it through its various processes. Children have also been taken into the mills and encouraged to prepare for the time when they will go to work, and speakers have attended schools. There is now the indication that parents no longer say to their children, "You won't go into coal," or "You won't go into textiles."
  There is a vast amount of work to be done; it is being done rapidly. Mills are being cleaned up and amenities are being put forward. In the main, employers are actively co-operating, but they come up against the general problems of shortages of materials and supply, and so on.

  2417
  The Government have placed this problem in the hands of a committee of Parliamentary Secretaries who have complete authority to go right ahead, with priority for the provision of nurseries and other amenities.
  We are being very successful in obtaining the foreign workers required to go into the mills. As we have not got the people in this country, we must find them from somewhere else. We give whatever inducements we can to bring back the women who have left the industry, but we still have to get this other labour. Of foreign workers already in the industry, managements express themselves well satisfied and describe them as very intelligent, quick to pick up the industry and to make good. We have made arrangements to bring in others, but I am not quite sure whether we shall reach that high target of another 58,000 for cotton; we will do our best. If the redeployment in the industry can be got going at the same time, perhaps we can get the mills and the looms manned up without having to go quite to that high number.
  So far as agriculture is concerned, there again I can give a general over-all answer which I think will satisfy hon. Members. The 18,000 prisoners of war whom we were hoping would stay, have in fact turned out to be 20,000 which have asked to stay. They will be retained in industry on a civilian basis. So far as E.V.W.'s are concerned, we have this year got 27,000 Poles and 16,000 other E.V.W.'s. There, again, we come up against a great problem. It is a real difficulty to decide whether we should build cottages to take four or five agricultural workers in the area, or build one of these big camps, or extend one of them, to take the great number of people who are coming in.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the weekly intake of E.V.W.'s?
  Mr. Isaacs: They vary from week to week. A lot of people sometimes ask me questions about them, and I usually carry a little document. This shows that, roughly, we are bringing in between 500 to 600 E.V.W.'s a week. The number actually going into industry is somewhere about 1,100 Poles and E.V.W.'s each week. I will not be tempted to go any further into that or to break up the figures any more. I thought that it was right to
  2418
  answer those main points which were made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  In regard to the question of the raid-September figures. I am aiming all the time at the end of the year. Reference was made to the mid-year figures. At the moment we are not actually worried about them. I have not got the thing absolutely certain from my hon. Friends, but I am informed, in speaking about the steps being taken for the volunteer harvest workers, that the books are pretty well full up, and that anybody who wants to take a voluntary holiday in the camps at harvest lime had better get in quickly or he will not get a chance at all. A great number of workers are enrolled for that and in addition, of course, the military and others will give such assistance as may be required at the peak of the harvest.
  Then the right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned restrictive practices. So far as restrictive practices in the trade unions are concerned, believe me there is a lot of hot air talked about this I know that there are some, but there are nothing near so many as people might think. I am not speaking about restrictive practice by employers in business. In the case of industry, during the war the trade unions voluntarily surrendered certain customs and practices which had been theirs, in many cases, for generations. They were given up. They remain suspended, but the trade unions have the absolute right, at a given date to demand the restoration of those practices. They could have demanded that restoration last December 12 months, but they decided to put it off for a year. Last December they considered the matter again and at our request they put it off for another year.
  As I said in this House sometime ago, the less we say about it the better it will be. I believe that they will leave the matter alone and not ask for the restoration of those practices unless somebody comes along, stirs up some trouble, and makes out a story of the wickedness of the unions. Then they might say, "If we are so wicked, give us back what you took away from us." All these practices, given up in war-time, still remain suspended, and I hope that they will continue to remain suspended.
  On the question of hours of work and wages, all those negotiations went on

  2419
  before the publication of the Government White Paper "Personal Incomes, Costs and Prices." They went on without any interference from the Government under the purely voluntary system of collective bargaining which we have adopted. Since the publication of the White Paper, all those who engage in wage negotiations are asked to undertake those negotiations bearing in mind the views expressed in the White Paper. Those opinions are not binding instructions. They are opinions in the form of guidance laid down for them.
  Many other points have been raised in this Debate. I would like to deal with most of them. The right hon. Member for Epsom who opened the Debate, referred to the juvenile advisory service. There, again, I would very much like to go right into it and say how it is working. It is working satisfactorily. That service is not directed by the Ministry of Labour but is operated jointly, in some areas by the Ministry of Labour and in others by the education authority. I am obliged to notice that the right hon. Gentleman thought it should be run by the Ministry of Labour alone, and I think that is on its reputation and not because of anyone now connected with it. It has its National Advisory Council and its local committees, and it encourages contact with industries when required. For example, in Kingston-upon-Thames a week or so ago, I went to see an interesting exhibition staged by employers to show the children coming from school what kind of work was done in their area, and I think that sort of thing is going to be very useful. We cannot get full benefit without some further legislation, which I hope will shortly come before the House.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question on a point which I raised a short while ago? Is the right hon. Gentleman considering the point about industries which are undermanned from the junior employment side?
  Mr. Isaacs: We want to encourage people to take an interest in the undermanned industries, in their own area if there is one. I personally want to see the children given the chance of a job without their having to pay a railway fare to some other town right away from
  2420
  them—a job in their own local industries—and I think that if we can get that interest in the local industries, we can give them a better job and do something towards increasing local interest.
  Mr. McCorquodale: There is a point which has been mentioned—it may not be true—about the education authorities, in that if they have control, they are inclined to put too much emphasis on black-coated occupations.
  Mr. Isaacs: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for reminding me of that. I think there was a case a little while ago, when the Home Secretary was with the right hon. Gentleman in the Education Office, and they did draw attention to another difficulty in finding jobs, but these committees are trying to encourage children to take jobs where they have to take off their coats and roll up their shirt sleeves. In the old days, a clerk only wore a collar and cuffs and never wore a shirt. That was all he had—a dickey and his cuffs. We have got beyond that in these days.
  Then the Appointments Department was mentioned. I have got a beautiful story to tell of the vacancies that have been filled, but I cannot keep the House much longer. It has proved a very great success, and it has enabled people of very different standards to find employment and it has enabled employers to find the right kind of person they wanted. Perhaps, if the people knew more about the appointments officers and employers knew they would be able to get the persons they wanted to fill their vacant posts, it might be used much more. Therefore, we intend to keep that service going because it has given very satisfactory results.
  I would very much like to answer in more detail some of the other questions put to me. I think I have covered the points put to me from the Front Opposition Bench. The hon. Member for Hulme (Mr. Lee) spoke of the development councils, and they are now actually being built up. An order will be made shortly for the cotton industry, and the matter is in hand, and we hope soon to be able to make orders for development councils in wool, hosiery, footwear, furniture and pottery.
  With reference to the joint production committees, as one who has some knowledge of industry, I would say that for

  2421
  hundreds of years we have had shop stewards under the name of "Fathers of the Chapel,' and shop committees under the name of "Chapels." The only religious light about it was the name; there was no hymn singing there, especially on the day when we paid our entrance fee to the chapel meeting by way of buying beer. That was the wet rent.
  My hon. Friend suggested that the regional boards might be brought in at some point as a kind of arbitration body for joint production committees. I would ask him to pause and think that over. I think that, if a joint production committee in any works has a difference of opinion, it is not the happiest thing to bring other employees and other industries into it; it is far better that they should build up some system of conciliation themselves, and, if I may say so, refer the matter to the regional industrial relations officer of the Ministry of Labour, who is an independent person, anxious to find a settlement and not to create trouble. I would ask my hon. Friend to consider that.
  I would now like to refer to what the hon. Member for South Aberdeen (Lady Grant) said. She stated that she had some experience of industry. I began to doubt what her experience was until she mentioned something about the duties and activities of the personnel manager. Then I realised that, on that point, at any rate, she had a good knowledge indeed of what was required in industry from personnel managers. I think I have already dealt with one of her points. She said that people resent having taken away from them their right to choose their own employment. I would only point out that of the 200,000 people whom we sent to the first preference jobs, and whom we could have directed, only 17 were so directed, so that, at any rate, only 17 expressed any kind of resentment. The noble Lady also said that it was wrong to ask married women to go back to industry. I do not think it is, because we only ask them when they come to the Ministry and ask for a job. Although I entirely agree that it is much better for married women to remain at home—certainly from their husbands' point of view—when they come along in response to our appeal, I think it is much happier to feel that they are coming along because
  2422
  they want to instead of being forced to do so through sheer economic necessity. Those who come along are welcome, and we are glad to have them.
  The hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) also raised this point. He said we must have the right distribution of labour, and that it was desperately important that we should have it. All the while he was saying that I was asking myself how we could get this distribution of labour. After all, we are trying to do it by our control of engagement order. We have not had many riots yet, nor all the labour distributed into the sections to which we want it to go. But we are gradually building it up in that way, and I think we shall be able to do it. The hon. Gentleman also said that there must be an orderly reduction in the standard of life, and then said that, in our youth, we were a rich nation. I do not think he meant in "our" youth; I think he meant in the youth of the nation. I have read about those days of poverty, cruelty to children, of kids of five being sent to the mills, and boys of 12 working in the pits, and when there were no social services. I would rather we were a poor nation with a population of happy contented people, than a rich nation with lot of starvelings and people suffering as in those days.
  There are only one or twp other things to which I think I ought to make reference. The hon. Member for Bucklow (Mr. Shepherd) said that there are too many administrative workers, over-elaborate administration, and that every business in this country could reduce its administration. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman would back me up if I asked for power to direct boards of directors and administrative workers? I should like to see them doing more useful work—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—useful from the point of view of what the hon. Member for Bucklow said. He said, as I have already quoted, that there are too many administrative workers and over-elaborate administration. All right, if there are too many, then there are more than the jobs need. I cannot imagine any modern business like firm really keeping on their staff administrative workers they did not want. They may have kept one or two more, waiting for the tide to turn when they get their raw material or orders to keep their people busy, but my experience

  2423
  is that they do not keep passengers hanging about. I do not take much notice of that point.
  The hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) began, I think, to juggle about with some millions of one sort or another. I think perhaps I shall help her and the House, and help myself by getting the matter put down clearly as to what the position is. There are 11 million boys and girls under the age of 15—they are not spivs, of course. There are five million men and women over 65 years of age. That gives us a total of 16 million, if my arithmetic is correct. There are 16 million women between the ages of 15 and 64 of whom approximately two-thirds are married women with children under school age or other domestic responsibilities; we have that 11 million, which gives us a grand total of 27 million. We have a total working population of 20,500,000 which, with this 27 million, gives us 47,500,000—that is how I make it with my arithmetic; if anybody else can make it anything different, it is for them to have a go.
  I will not go further into the many points which have been raised except to say this; there has been, time and again in this House, a reference to the over-population of the Civil Service, but I think I am correct in saying that, although the House may have criticised the number in the Civil Service, I do not think there has been any real criticism of the service of the Civil Service. This is my first opportunity since I have been Minister to say this—now two and a half years; I never thought I would last as long as that—and in that two and a half years I have made contact with civil servants of the higher grades in the Ministry with which I am proud and privileged to be associated, and with those in other Departments and those of lower ranks, and I would like to say, speaking especially of the service with which I am associated, that I am always full of admiration for their efficiency, their integrity and their assiduity, and the way in which they give themselves to their jobs. I can ring up any of the principal officers of my staff any time of the day or night and always find them cheerful and willing to help. Those men in Ministry of Labour offices all over the country—in large
  2424
  groups in some of the big offices and in one or two men in the offices in the small towns—are men to whom I pay tribute. They have earned the respect of those whom they serve in these offices, through the service the Government are giving in those localities through these individuals, however humble they are. I would like to close on a note expressing deep and sincere appreciation to all the staff of the Ministry of Labour, from top to bottom, for the loyalty and the assistance they have given to me in the time I have been privileged to serve as Minister.
  10.14 p.m.
  Sir Waldron Smithers: I regret to have to keep the House any longer, but I have a duty which I owe to my many friends in the building industry and I promised that I would, if possible, put forward their case tonight. Before coming to that point, I want if I may, to reinforce the point made by the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) and the note on which the Minister closed his speech. It was a reference to the number of civil servants. I do not think the point has been sufficiently emphasised that all the enormous number of national employees, as they have been called, have their opposite numbers in industry. I know many big firms who keep five or 10 or 15 clerks doing nothing but filling up Government forms, and those firms have to bear that expense.
  One of the most important aspects of the manpower problem is its relationship to the building industry. It is a very human aspect, for the building of houses is of great importance to national recovery. To a great extent, houses are the raw material of industry, and the Government cannot expect increased production from the workers, which would enable the Government to export goods and services at world competitive prices—I emphasise, world competitive prices—when so many thousands of the workers are homeless or living in overcrowded conditions, leading inevitably to unhappiness at home.
  The Midland Federation of Brick and Tile Manufacturers know from practical experience the difficulties and problems, and what should be the manpower policy of the future. I want to thank them for the information they have given me; I am certain they have no axe to grind, but

  2425
  they have afforded me that information in the national interest. When bureaucrats in Whitehall insist that political prejudice is more important than economic recovery, chaos inevitably follows. It is the Government's own inept policy which has resulted in the failure to build houses. The Minister of Labour himself recently issued an undated leaflet, which is quite short, and which I propose to read to the House. It is called "Pick Your Job" and says:
  "For prosperity. Brickmakers are sure of good wages for years ahead. Workers of all ages are wanted urgently in brick works. There is a variety of jobs for workers with and without experience. Wage packets compare favourably with other trades, and there is a certainty of steady employment for years ahead"
  I ask the House to note the phrases "for years ahead" and "steady employment."
  "In planning for the future, you will want to pick a job that offers security."
  I ask the House to note the word "security," to which I shall refer again in a moment.
  "You will get it in brickmaking. For certain occupations in the building brick industry the Minister of Labour has arranged a training scheme in consultation with the National Joint Council for the industry."
  Then it urges people to go to the employment exchange and get the job. The very policy of the Government has vitiated this pamphlet, which holds out such bright hopes to the workers. The Government have destroyed that security which they advocate in this pamphlet. Although I do not like the politics of the Minister of Labour, I rather like him, and I am sure this pamphlet was issued with perfectly good intentions. But I would remind him that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The Government, by their ineptitude, are not allowing the hopes they raised in this pamphlet to fructify. Only today I asked the Minister of Health,
  "if he is aware that there are thousands of unemployed builders; that timber yards are so full that they cannot store any more; that brick yards are closing down because production is greater than the demand, particulars of which have been sent to him; and if he will immediately remove all restrictions and allow building firms to build houses and carry out repairs."
  He did not reply to the details of my Question, because he cannot, and to do
  2426
  so would have been to admit a colossal failure. He replied:
  "the amount of new building work which can be allowed must continue to be related to the timber which can be imported. Timber stocks now in the country are not excessive, and will be needed to complete work in progress or projected."
  On leaving the Chamber I met a right hon. Gentleman who is now in his place, and he said to me: "That question of yours was very interesting." He added that only today he had heard of a sawmill which was closing down because they had so much timber in stock that they could not get rid of any more. The truth is that when Whitehall takes action and gives directions to an intricate and complicated industry like the building industry, they release forces and factors which they never thought of and which they cannot control. As I have said in this House before, if any Government try to break the law of supply and demand, that law will break them with resultant disaster.
  I want to give another instance of the misdirection of labour, and to illustrate what I said about releasing forces over which the Government have no control. I am told by the building industry that the Ministry of Labour rushed in and appealed for a large number of trainees for the bricklaying industry. They quire forgot that a bricklayer can be trained much more rapidly than a plumber or a carpenter, with the consequence—and I am told this on good authority—that there are many houses in the country today which are merely brick shells, which cannot be inhabited because there are not enough plumbers and carpenters to put in the fittings to make them habitable.
  I turn now from the manpower which ought to be employed on building houses, to the manpower which ought to be employed on repairing houses. In my division, there are over 3,000 families waiting for homes. I will give one typical example which shows what is happening all over the country. I know of an old-fashioned cottage, in which a man and his wife have brought up six children, who have now gone out into the world and made good. The cottage suffered from the effects of a bomb which fell fairly nearby. We are only just beginning to find out that as a result of the blast from the bomb the damp is rising. I went to a local builder—one of the oldest firms in

  2427
  England—and he told me that for £70 or £80 he could make that cottage habitable in a fortnight.
  It is hardly creditable, but I cannot get a licence to spend that relatively small amount to enable the family to go into that cottage. I am told that the Minister of Health has lowered the ceiling of the amount which local authorities are allowed to spend on repairs, and therefore my local authority are unable to help me. The Minister told me today that if I will give him the details, he will see what he can do in the matter. I am very anxious to get that cottage repaired, but it is all wrong that, because I happen to be a Member of Parliament, I can go to the Minister and get some kind of priority. It is unfair to thousands of other people.
  I want now to give an estimate for 1948, which has been prepared by experts. It is based on the figures in the Housing Return for England and Wales, 1948, Command Paper 7333. It is estimated that 164,000 building workers will be laid off in 1948 by the simple expedient of refusing licences for new buildings and repairs. The person who is in the shortest supply in that industry is the labourer and this cut will bring out the skilled craftsman who to a large extent will find his way into a factory and will be employed in what they call "dolling it up." Very little additional production is likely to ensue.
  With the cut already announced by the Government in factory building it is anticipated that 1,000 million bricks will not be required in 1948 and the corresponding number of bricklayers who will be put out of work will be 12,500. The 1,000 million bricks referred to will build 50,000 brick houses. The point I am trying to make is the difference between the traditional and non-traditional buildings to house the people of this country. I want to urge the Government for the sake of employing more men as I shall show in a minute that the non-traditional-built houses should be cut by 50,000 from now, and the factory space and workers engaged on the production of non-traditional houses and not the proper building trade workers should be deployed under an economic plan for the manufacture of exports. This, surely, would be a quicker way to provide exports, than pushing unwilling
  2428
  men, who will hold on to the last, and, when absorbed, the building trade will never see them back? Therefore, the switch intended by the Government damages the building industry permanently to the present and ultimate advantage of the non-traditional housing industry.
  I do not want to go into too much detail as it is late, but may I refer the Minister, if he wishes to examine this more, to Command Paper 7333, where he will see on page 6 that out of 317,928 tenders approved 82,020 are non-traditional? There is also the additional number of 13,461 permanent aluminium houses. This illustrates the misguided importance the Government attaches to the non-traditional permanent housing programme, and the tables in this Command Paper 2 (b) and No. II on page 32 show some two dozen types which are being authorised for tender at about 4,000 a month. These 4,000 per month should cease immediately. It may be that compensation will be asked for and may be due to the contractors of factory-built houses and for experiments, but it would be cheaper to build brick houses and pay compensation than build non-traditional houses at a much higher cost, as I shall show in a minute, and do permanent damage to the building industry.
  The volume of brick construction on 31st December, 1947, had only reached 56 per cent. of pre-war. At that level brick construction is not overspent. What is overspent and ought to be cut is all this tendency to steel and aluminium which is the delight of the planners and the Government office spendthrifts. I want to give an example. This week the Sutton Coldfield Council in Worcester announced a contract for 16 brick houses at £18,787, which is equal to £1,175 per house. That compares with the Wimpey non-traditional house which is one of the cheapest of the non-traditional houses at £1,350 to £1,380. I have no doubt that all I have said about the maldistribution of labour and the direction of things from Whitehall, which costs the taxpayer lots more money, also applies to Scotland.
  My last word is this. The only solution of the manpower problem, especially as applied to housing difficulties—and they are very real—is to remove all controls as soon as possible and to allow the private builders to get on with the job

  2429
  and use all the men and material they have to the best advantage. In the words of my beloved and honoured leader, "Set the people free."
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Committed to a Committee of the whole House for tomorrow.

  ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL
  Read a Second time.
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.—[Mr. Joseph Henderson.]

  GAS (SPECIAL ORDERS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Weston-super-Mare and District Gas Company, which was presented on 26th February and published, be approved."—[Mr. Robens.]
  10.33 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: I rise to ask one question, which I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to answer. It seems that in paragraph 6 there is power to increase the price of gas under this order and that it depends on what price was charged before. I would like an explanation from the Parliamentary Secretary whether in fact he is sponsoring an increase in the price of gas by 3d. per therm at this moment and, if so, is it in accordance with the policy of the Government?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): The purpose of the order is to extend certain statutory limits of supply. It is true that paragraph 6 gives the right to charge a differential price of 3d. per therm for gas supplied in added limits, but this will not result in any increase in the price of gas to consumers in the added limits.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Draft of the Special Order proposed to be made by the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Swindon United Gas Company, which was presented on 26th February and published, be approved."—[Mr. Robens.]
  Mr. P. Roberts: I should like to ask a question about paragraph 29. Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether the broad powers which this order gives relating to the share structure of this company, will mean an increase of compensation for this undertaking when the time comes, or does it mean that the money will be handed over, so to speak, to the new Gas Area Board. The sum referred to is £18,320 and there are other sums. I think this House should be told at this stage, as the Gas Bill is before the House, how this is going to be affected by the compensation provisions of that Bill.
  Mr. Robens: It certainly does increase the borrowing powers of the Swindon Gas Company. Even then, when the company is taken over under the socialisation Bill, it will be treated in precisely the same way as other undertakings are treated.
  Mr. Roberts: Is it related to some share price? The Parliamentary Secretary will realise that compensation for these companies is to be based on the price of shares at some preceding date. In this case, the company is to be allowed to borrow more money. I would like some information about the matter. It does not seem clear at the moment.
  Mr. Robens: Obviously, if they borrow money in accordance with this order, that must be taken into account when the question of compensation for that company is dealt with.
  Mr. Roberts: Will this be brought up at some stage of the Gas Bill?
  Mr. Robens: We shall discuss the compensation Clauses when they are reached, and the hon. Member may be able to raise this and other points then.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  "That the Draft of the Special Order proposed to be made by the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Mayor. Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough of St. Helens, which was presented on 26th February and published, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Draft of the Special Order proposed to be made by the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen and Citizens of the City of Hereford, which was presented on 26th February and published, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Draft of the Special Order proposed to be made by the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the County Borough of Middlesbrough, which was presented on 17th February and published, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Draft of the Special Order proposed to be made by the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the South Yorkshire and Derbyshire Gas Company, which was presented on 17th February and published, be approved."

  GOVERNMENT ENGLISH
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Joseph Henderson.)
  10.38 p.m.
  Mr. Keeling: I want to speak for about ten minutes on Government English, by which I mean the language used by Ministers and civil servants. Let me say that I am just as appreciative of civil servants as the Minister of Labour was in the last few words of his speech in the previous Debate. I am not going to talk of the language of Acts of Parliament. That is a different matter.
  The first object of a Government statement is, or should be, to convey its meaning readily. Apparently some Government Departments have been rather uneasy about their powers of expression, for in 1942 the Ministry of Home Security, and last year the Ministry of Labour, issued a booklet or circular designed, they said, to secure clearer thinking, clearer expression, and a sharper impact upon the mind of the reader. I understand also that a comprehensive book on this subject, to be called "Plain Words," written by a distinguished civil servant, Sir Ernest Gowers, is shortly to appear, for the guidance of all Departments, including the Fighting Forces and the socialised industries. I am very glad to hear that.
  I think that what may have aroused Government uneasiness is that a year ago, when the popular edition of the White Paper on the Economic Situation of 1947 appeared under the title "Battle for
  2432
  Output," the institution called Mass Observation made a detailed inquiry into how far the public understood this document. The result of that inquiry was disturbing. Mass Observation found that a very large number of the words and sentences were not understood. The conclusion of the investigators was that the White Paper was
  "incapable of influencing most of the population to any significant degree."
  A wide gulf was revealed between the language of our leaders and the language of the general public. And this was the popular edition! That is equally true of many other Government pronouncements. It is not too much to say that their obscurity partly accounts for the disrepute into which some departmental activities have fallen. If departmental announcements are not understood, can the public be blamed if they mistrust the department?
  An official statement should be direct, simple, brief, vigorous, lucid, and certain rules for achieving these qualities are generally accepted. The first is that the writer ought to prefer the simple word to the far-fetched. A Government department is more likely to be understood if, instead of saying "implement," it says "carry out" or "fulfil." Again, why must it talk of "ablution facilities" when it means "wash basins?" Why does it talk of "proceeding" when it means "going," and why are people asked to "donate" instead of to "give?" My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) would have been better understood by the public if, a short time ago, he had said "one-sided" instead of "unilateral." Is it necessary for a Ministry to say "unfavourable weather conditions" when they mean "bad weather?" When a Minister refers to "sabotage" would he not consider saying "wreck" or "damage" or "destroy" instead? When there is to be "re-habilitation" or "re-conditioning" might it not be much better if the thing were "repaired" or "restored?" For "evacuate" why not use "rescue," "empty," or "clear;" and would not a Government letter which said that "his garment suffered minor damage but is capable of re-conditioning," have done better to say that "his trousers are torn?"

  2433
  The second rule is that the writer should prefer the concrete to the abstract. It is not much good telling a miner, as he was told in a White Paper last year, to "make a constructive and flexible approach to the problem of production." The Ministry of Food tell us that "the fats position will be relieved" when all they mean is that more fats will be available. The Ministry of Health, in referring to the war, say that "the cessation of house-building operated over five years," but "operated" is a singularly inappropriate word; why not say "no houses were built for five years"? The Ministry of Fuel and Power warn us that "the coal stocks position is extremely serious"; they mean, no doubt, that "coal stocks are dangerously low." My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, on 17th June, 1940, did not say "the position in regard to France is extremely serious"; he said "the news from France is very bad."
  The third rule is to prefer the short, straight speech to circumlocution. Must everything be in short supply—cannot it be scarce? Must people always "co-operate in a co-ordinated manner"; cannot they work together? A Minister sometimes says in this House that he "is prepared to admit"; then why not admit it? When a policeman reports that a defendant "was conveyed to his place of residence in an intoxicated condition", what he means, and what he probably would say if left to himself, is that he was carried home drunk.
  I am going to read a short extract from a well-known lecture by Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch—"Q".
  "'How excellent a thing is sleep,' sighed Sancho Panza. 'It wraps a man round like a cloak.'"
  This, says "Q," is an excellent example of how to say a thing concretely. He adds:
  "A Government Department would have said: 'Among the beneficent qualities of sleep its capacity for withdrawing the human consciousness from the contemplation of the immediate circumstances may be perhaps accounted not the least remarkable.'"
  "How vile," says "Q," "is the abstract noun. It wraps a man's thoughts round like cotton wool."
  One common form of circumlocution in this House is what I may call the phrase of appeasement. A Minister will tell you that an operation is "one of considerable
  2434
  magnitude," because he thinks that is more likely to be accepted as an excuse than if he says it is a big job. Or he may say "considerable practical difficulties militate against my hon. Friend's suggestion being put into effect," because he thinks that is more placatory than "my hon. Friend's suggestion will not work." For myself, I prefer the unvarnished reply. Again we are frequently told that a matter "is under active consideration." Is it possible for a thing to be considered otherwise than actively? Does a Minister ruminate, like a cow? Actually, I am told by a civil servant that this answer really means that they have lost the file and are trying to find it.
  I want to say a word about punctuation. The omission of a comma may alter the meaning of a sentence. Hyphens may be equally important, but they are much neglected in Government publications including HANSARD. No-Standing Orders are very different from no Standing Orders. A superfluous-hair remover is not at all the same as a superfluous hair-remover. A cross-section of the public is not necessarily a cross section of the public. Typists do not understand hyphens because they have never been taught them, but it would not be very difficult to master them.
  I am delighted to hear that the Government are making a serious effort to improve their English, by means of this new book "Plain Words." May we have a copy of it in the Library? I hope very much that the book will contain an Index Expurgatorius—a list of words and phrases to be avoided—barbarous words, cumbrous phrases, pleonasms, genteelisms, needless variants, superfluities, pomposities. I hope the book will promote brevity and pungency. The Minister or civil servant who can state simply what he means and what he wants will be far more effective than one who employs pretentious verbosity.
  10.49 p.m.
  Mr. Pritt: I have often wondered what the Tory party were interested in. They are not interested in getting anything done. But when we are talking about words their attendance is doubled—there are about seven of them. The first comment I would like to make is that the speech of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) was not as dull as many Tory speeches.

  2435
  I feel that some of the improvements he suggested were improvements, but on the whole I feel that if one followed what he suggested, and changed some of the phrases that he did not like to those which he did, ordinary speech and writing would become as barren as that Basic English which is a convenient commercial substitute for what is a beautiful language. Some of the rest of his comments really verged on the snobbishness of the educated. He referred to typists not understanding hyphens. Most of my pupils when I was a junior at the Bar could not spell, but many of them are doing useful work in the legal division of Government offices. I expect that they have since been taught to spell—I do not know.
  Most of what the hon. Gentleman said amounted to this—I checked it very carefully, phrase by phrase, word by word—"why not abandon this word and use this one which I prefer—'mend' instead of 'rehabilitate'." I do not profess to have the keenest appreciation of the English language—though I have been using it for many years—but when he says "go" instead of "proceed" I have some measure of agreement with him. Yet there are times when if you said "go" you would convey some difference of meaning, whereas "proceed" would cover various forms of getting from one place to another. I would like to mention this: at the end the hon. Gentleman said something about "a serious effort to improve our expression." What he really meant was "try to talk more simply."
  10.52 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): When I saw the title of the matter which the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) had decided to raise, I was completely in the dark as to what he was going to say, because although it is true that certain phrases may be beloved by certain civil servants, a special kind of English is not peculiar to them. Therefore, "Government English," in fact, does not exist, and the various illustrations which the hon. Gentleman gave tonight were illustrations of words in general use in substitution for others. Although I think that most of us would agree with him that often the shorter Saxon or early English word is much to be preferred to a long, Latinised
  2436
  word, nevertheless, as the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) said, sometimes a longer word does make a difference to the meaning, and conveys a meaning which the speaker desires to convey much more exactly than the simpler word.
  I agree with him, however, that some words are frequently used in the wrong sense. One of the words to which he drew our attention, namely "evacuate," is one of those words. You cannot strictly "evacuate" a person. You "evacuate" a place; and yet today, almost everybody, and, I freely admit it, Government Departments, use the word "evacuate" when speaking of a person. Words such as that, I agree with him, ought not to be used, for English is a beautiful language, and those who work and speak for the Government, of whatever complexion that Government may be, should try to use English in its proper sense. Nevertheless, frequently we do get phrases and sentences which may not be strictly grammatical, but which do convey exactly what the person means. Of course, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) is a past master in using words in their proper sequence and to mean exactly what he wishes to convey. But even he at times will speak ungrammatically, and yet in no uncertain way convey what he wishes to make plain. There is on the record in Whitehall a paper with a comment of his scrawled in the margin, "This is all nonsense up with which I will not put," That might be phrased differently, but it could not be phrased more forcibly and the person who saw it could be under no misapprehension as to what the right hon. Gentleman wished to convey.
  Although the hon. Gentleman said that he did not wish to discuss the wording of Acts of Parliament, nevertheless part of the trouble with which we in this House as well as civil servants are faced, is due to the phrasing hallowed, by long usage which is inserted in Bills by the Parliamentary draftsmen. It would be a very good thing if we could get away from much of the phrasing which has now become so common in Bills and Acts of Parliament, but my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North Hammersmith would tell us that it is often essential to use the phrases that are used by the Parliamentary draftsmen because

  2437
  those phrases, by long usage, have taken on a special meaning. If something simpler and more direct were used, the courts might say that, having used a different set of words from those used in previous enactments, the words might mean something different and they might be called upon to define them afresh. Therefore, the Parliamentary draftsmen are chary of experimenting with new forms when they intend to express the same meaning. They are apt to use phrases which have become time-honoured, and which people and the courts have become used to, and upon which the judges have given decisions.
  Therefore when civil servants come to translate the words from an Act of Parliament on a form, or in a document, or into a statutory instrument, they are apt, and one cannot blame them, to use the phraseology of the enactment with which they are dealing. The difficulty is quite apparent, well known, and well understood in Departments by all civil servants who handle Statutory Rules and Orders. We have recently attempted to translate what I may call the "jargon" of an Act of Parliament by adding an explanatory note at the end.
  Mr. Keeling: I suggested it.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: The hon. Member was not the only person who had the bright idea.
  Mr. Keeling: I was the first.
  Mr. David Jones: Because the hon. Gentleman did not understand it himself.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: This point has been under observation for a very long time. It was felt that if Whitehall attempted to define in an explanatory note what an Act of Parliament meant, which is for the courts to do in the last resort, and if Whitehall's explanation was not the same as the interpretation the courts placed upon it, trouble might ensue. It would be grossly unfair to people who took the explanatory note and its simple meaning and acted upon it, and later found that what they followed was not the true meaning of the words as decided by the courts.
  Major Haughton: From the point of view of the ordinary citizen, is it not the exact phraseology which the Financial Secretary is commending that leads to so much legal controversy?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I am not sure that I follow my hon. and gallant Friend in what he said, but if I understand him aright he is saying that, although it is true that we get certain phraseology in an Act of Parliament, it is not that of which the hon. Member who opened this Debate complains. That may well be. I am trying to point out that much of the difficulty that has arisen—and I agree that we do get a lot of ambiguity in documents—springs from, and is due to, the fact that civil servants have to try to interpret Acts of Parliament to the citizens. They have to be careful, so far as they can, to apply the phraseology used by Parliamentary draftsmen in the Measure or Act with which they are dealing.
  The hon. Gentleman did not refer to forms, but I would like to tell him that we have at the Treasury an Organisation and Methods Department which has—I think with some success—attempted, for a lengthening period now, to simplify the forms which go out, both to lessen their number and to make them simpler so that people can understand them. It is essential that the people should not only find that a form is easy to understand and the instructions plain to follow, but also that it is easy to fill in. We are well aware that there is this need, and we strive repeatedly to do what we can to simplify and make easy the forms which, unfortunately, are essential in the national life today. I also agree that the letters sent out by the Departments should be friendly, natural and informative, and couched as far as possible in words we can all understand.
  The hon. Member referred to a book called "Plain Words." I hope that book will have a big and ready sale. I will certainly see that a copy is placed in the Library. It has been prepared, as he said, by a retired civil servant of some repute, who has written in an easy, pleasant, and even amusing way of these matters. That book has already been used, although it will not be published until next month, as a text book for courses which have taken place in the Treasury over a considerable period now. We have refresher courses for civil servants of certain grades, who come there week by week and are helped to do what I am sure the whole House, as well as the hon. Member who raised this subject, wants done—namely, to get away from

  2439
  clichés and from the use of long words, and to write simple, friendly letters. I always think that the letters which a Department sends out to hon. Members and to the public are the shop window of democracy, and it is the Department's job to see that the formal, printed letters are couched in simple, friendly, straightforward language, and that the letters sent to electors through hon. Members conform to the same standard.
  We are doing our best to see that Whitehall does conform to the ideal which the hon. Gentleman has placed before us. Already we have done a great deal. The Civil Service is not as bad as it is painted. I assure the hon. Member that the view he expressed, which was expressed so forcibly by the Minister of Labour just before he finished his speech tonight, is correct. We have a Civil Service second to none in the world, and although it may be true that some of the letters are couched in language which may appear stilted, nevertheless, taking the thing by and large, the letters can be said to be excellent. That does not mean that they cannot be improved, and the Treasury and the Departments concerned fully realise that and are doing what they can to improve matters.
  There is very little more that I can say in reply to the hon. Gentleman. He did not give me a great deal on which to bite, because many of the points which he made are points which can be made against almost any section of the community. Although it is true that the Civil Service is there to be shot at and does get shot at, I have not got it in my heart to believe that it is any worse than anyone else when we come to using long words where we could use short ones, or being too obscure when we could be plain.
  Mr. Keeling: I stated a good deal about Ministers' language.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Ministers are drawn from various parties, and I did not gather from what the hon. Gentleman said that this kind of thing happened only since the General Election of 1945. As a matter of fact, if I had time I could indicate to
  2440
  the House that there is a considerable improvement in the phraseology of Ministers down the years. I was not alive at that time, and I did not hear the great Gladstone, but I have read some of his speeches. Few in this House would like to see that type of oratory come back. It was rotund, long-winded, and the sentences were extremely lengthy. There has been an improvement in that direction. Ministers themselves have helped to bring that improvement about, and none more than the Ministers who today sit on the Government Front Bench.
  If stones are going to be thrown at Ministers for the kind of language that they use, not much complaint can be made against this Government. There are all sorts, whatever the complexion of the Government, and there is not a great deal in what the hon. Gentleman said under that heading which requires any reply from me. Finally, we are fully aware that there is a need for simplification and the use of proper words. Where letters are written they should be straightforward and simple. I can assure the House that we have that ideal in mind and are working towards that end. This Government more than any other has taken active steps towards the implementation of that ideal.
  Sir William Darling: Could the Parliamentary Secretary tell us whether there is any possibility of using a great many of the pithy Scottish words, which were in common use before the Union and since have fallen into disuse? Would it not be possible to enlarge the Parliamentary vocabulary by using some of these words?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Perhaps the hon. Member will give us one or two examples of what he has in mind.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Eight Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.

COAL INDUSTRY
  Supplies (Quality)
  Supplies (Quality)
  Meco-Moore Cutter Loaders
  Meco-Moore Cutter Loaders
  Deep Mineable Coal (Reserves)
  Deep Mineable Coal (Reserves)
FUEL AND POWER
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
  Heavy Fuel Oil (Price)
  Heavy Fuel Oil (Price)
  Social Service Organisations (Petrol)
  Social Service Organisations (Petrol)
  Gas Retorts, Penmaenmawr
  Gas Retorts, Penmaenmawr
  Refining Plant, Heysham
  Refining Plant, Heysham
  Petrol Imports
  Petrol Imports
ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES
  Oil-Fired Generating Stations
  Oil-Fired Generating Stations
  B.E.A. Office Accommodation
  B.E.A. Office Accommodation
  FIRE SERVICES (N.F.S. MEN)
  FIRE SERVICES (N.F.S. MEN)
HOUSING
  Rushey Hill Camp, Peacehaven
  Rushey Hill Camp, Peacehaven
  Private Building, Newark District
  Private Building, Newark District
  Local Authorities' Lists
  Local Authorities' Lists
  STREPTOMYCIN SUPPLIES
  STREPTOMYCIN SUPPLIES
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Sanatoria, Wales (Care)
  Sanatoria, Wales (Care)
  Dentists
  Dentists
  Medical Services
  Medical Services
  Dental Repairs
  Dental Repairs
EMPLOYMENT
  European Volunteer Workers
  European Volunteer Workers
  Foreign Entertainment Artists
  Foreign Entertainment Artists
  Shipbuilding, Wearside (Juvenile Entry)
  Shipbuilding, Wearside (Juvenile Entry)
  Unemployment, Hastings
  Unemployment, Hastings
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Foreign Entertainment Artists
  Foreign Entertainment Artists
  Costs and Prices
  Costs and Prices
  Economic Survey, 1948
  Economic Survey, 1948
  Gifts from Abroad (Customs Seizure)
  Gifts from Abroad (Customs Seizure)
  Social Services (Benefits)
  Social Services (Benefits)
  CANADIAN FORCES, HONG KONG (TELEGRAMS)
  CANADIAN FORCES, HONG KONG (TELEGRAMS)
BASUTOLAND
  Co-operative Organisation
  Co-operative Organisation
  Woollen Mill
  Woollen Mill
  Cattle Overstocking
  Cattle Overstocking
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Hairdressers (Restrictive Practices)
  Hairdressers (Restrictive Practices)
  Racehorses (Exports)
  Racehorses (Exports)
  Paper (Merchants and Printers)
  Paper (Merchants and Printers)
  Cotton Industry (Accessories)
  Cotton Industry (Accessories)
  Wool Cloth
  Wool Cloth
  Clothing Coupons (Housewives)
  Clothing Coupons (Housewives)
  War Damage Claims
  War Damage Claims
  Hotel Industry (American Capital)
  Hotel Industry (American Capital)
  DISABILITY PENSIONS
  DISABILITY PENSIONS
  FRUIT AND VEGETABLES (MAXIMUM PRICES)
  FRUIT AND VEGETABLES (MAXIMUM PRICES)
  PALESTINE (BRITISH SUBJECTS)
  PALESTINE (BRITISH SUBJECTS)
  BERMUDA (JOINT COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
  BERMUDA (JOINT COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
  NORTHERN RHODESIA (AFRICANS, IDENTIFICATION)
  NORTHERN RHODESIA (AFRICANS, IDENTIFICATION)
  KENYA RAILWAYS (WAGES)
  KENYA RAILWAYS (WAGES)
  NATIVE ADMINISTRATIONS, NIGERIA (INVESTMENTS)
  NATIVE ADMINISTRATIONS, NIGERIA (INVESTMENTS)
  ELECTRICAL GENERATING PLANT (TARGET)
  ELECTRICAL GENERATING PLANT (TARGET)
  NORTH OF SCOTLAND (INDUSTRIES)
  NORTH OF SCOTLAND (INDUSTRIES)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, THE LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, on behalf of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House I beg to move the Motion standing on the Order Paper in his name.
Moved, That Standing Orders Nos. XXI and XXXIX be considered in order to their being suspended until the House adjourn for the Recess at Easter and that until that date Government business have, except with the consent of the Government, precedence over other Notices and Orders of the Day.—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.

GLASGOW CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to Order).

WESTON-SUPER-MARE GAS ORDER, 1948;
ST. HELENS GAS ORDER, 1948;
HEREFORD GAS ORDER, 1948.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Orders, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Orders, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.—(Lord Chorley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COTTON INDUSTRY DEVELOPMENT COUNCIL ORDER, 1948.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last be approved.—(Lord Chorley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POLICE PENSIONS BILL.
2.36 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, before the House go into Committee on the Police Pensions Bill, there is just one small point to which I should like to draw the attention of the noble and learned Viscount and on which I should like an explanation. Under Clause 8 (that is the Interpretation Clause) of the Bill there occur these three words:
"'injury' includes disease."
That strikes me as a very wide definition of the word "injury." If your Lordships will refer to the Police Pensions Act, 1921, the greater portion of which is being repealed by the new Bill, your Lordships will observe, in subsection (2) of Section 33, a very wide definition of the word "injury." I need not bother to read it to your Lordships now. My purpose is merely to seek from the Lord Chancellor an explanation of these words in the new Bill to the effect that, if a policeman contracts a disease, it shall be said to be an injury, and he will thereby be able to claim a pension or other remunerative reward under the Bill. It is quite a small matter. Probably it is due to a decision reached in the High Court. I do not know, but I should like the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack to reply to that point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, I am glad to reply to the point raised by the noble Earl. The position is not unlike that which has been agreed under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Under the existing Act of 1921, the case of Garvin v. the Police Authority for the City of London came before the High Court. A policeman alleged, and proved, that he had suffered from tuberculosis and that that tuberculosis was due to the fact that he had had prolonged service in an unventilated office. The

963
Court held that that was an injury within the meaning of the Act of 1921. Similarly, if a policeman in the course of his duty were to have to lie upon the wet ground whilst keeping observation, and he contracted an illness, that also would be held to be an injury within the Police Pensions Act, 1921.
Again, suppose that a policeman, in the course of his duties, had to go to a fever hospital to arrest somebody, or to take a dying declaration, and he contracted fever; that also, under the existing law, would be held to be an injury within the meaning of the Act of 1921. All we are doing in this new Bill, in substance, is to reproduce quite simply the existing law, though it may seem to many of your Lordships rather far-fetched to call those diseases "injuries." However, they are injuries according to the law as it has been interpreted. All we are now doing is to make it quite obvious that "injury" does include "disease." I think that that is the answer to the noble Earl's question.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for that reply. That certainly has made the point much clearer.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly. [The Earl of Drogheda in the Chair.]
House resumed.
Bill reported without amendment.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.
2.40 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I have one thing to say on this Bill, which I regard as an excellent Bill. I should like to ask the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, whether he can give me an assurance that the remission of the ad valorem duty on American films will not result in a lower quota of British films under the Bill.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, during the Committee stage of this Bill I ventured to raise two points which received the sympathy of my noble friend Viscount Hall. The first point had regard to the cost test, and the second to the position of the supporting film producers in relation to a percentage of the
964
box office takings. My noble friend undertook to discuss both subjects with his right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, since time was the essence of the contract in both, one having to be referred to the new Films Council and the second to the Committee of Inquiry. May I ask my noble friend whether he has been able to consult with his right honourable friend and, if so, with what result? Will the new Films Council be set up without delay, and can the Committee of Inquiry now commence their duties?
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, I can give the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, a categorical assurance that there is no question of there being a lower quota than would have been fixed but for the recent American agreement. I would like to inform my noble friend, Lord Lucas, that I did have a conversation with the President of the Board of Trade upon the two points which he raised, and my right honourable friend was still of the opinion that it would be much better to refer the question of the cost test to the new Films Council. Once the legislation is through, the new Films Council will be formed. The noble Lord was quite right in his view that the Committee of Inquiry could not be appointed until there had been some understanding between my right honourable friend and the American industry. As we now know, that agreement has been published, and I have been given an assurance that the Committee of Inquiry for which he asked will be set up as soon as possible.
LORD TEYNHAM: I am grateful to the noble Viscount for the assurance he has given about the quota for British films.
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.
2.45 p.m.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 12 [Continuation of third fixed grant period for certain purposes]:
LORD HENDERSON LORD HENDERSON moved to add to the clause as a new subsection:
"(4) Any scheme made under any of the enactments mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section

965
which, by virtue of this section, continues in operation on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-eight, may be altered or revoked by a subsequent scheme made at any time between that date and the date when the enactment in question ceases to be in force as aforesaid."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 12 provides for the continuation of the third fixed grant period under the Local Government Acts, 1929 to 1941, until the appointed day under the National Health Service Act—namely, July 5, 1948—for certain purposes. These purposes are set out in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of subsection (1) of this Clause. Amendment or revocation of these schemes is necessary from time to time, in consequence of changes in expenditure or other circumstances, and power to amend or revoke schemes at any time before the end of a fixed grant period is given by proviso (a) to Section 131 (2) of the Local Government Act, 1929. This proviso is repealed by Clause 145 (2) of the Bill and Part I of the Second Schedule, with effect from April 1, 1948, and the Minister will, under Clause 12 as it stands, be unable after that date to amend or revoke a scheme. The proposed Amendment gives the Minister power to make any amendment or revocation which may be required during the period from April 1 to the date on which the schemes cease to have effect—that is, the appointed day under the National Health Service Act, which is July 5. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 15, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Henderson.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, this Amendment seems to be quite all right and we have no objection to its insertion. It makes the clause rather more flexible than it would otherwise have been.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 30:
Investigation into working of provisions as to amount of payments to local authorities under Part II.
30.—(1) In the year 1952–53, or such later year not later than 1955–56 as the Secretary of State may determine, and every fifth subsequent year, the Secretary of State shall, in consultation with such associations of local authorities as appear to him to be concerned and with any local authority with whom consultation appears to him to be desirable, cause investigations to be made into the working of this Part of this Act (due regard being had, amongst other things, to the sums falling to
966
be paid to local authorities under Part V of this Act).
THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided that if the Secretary of State is satisfied on representations made to him by any local authority or by any such association as aforesaid that the first of the said investigations should be made in a year prior to the year 1952–53, he shall cause an investigation to be made in that prior year, and in that event the foregoing provisions of this section shall have effect with the substitution of that prior year for the year 1952–53 or such later year as aforesaid."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment refers to Clause 30, which makes provision for possible investigation into the operation of the formula for the distribution of equalization grants. In the event of the equalization grants not proving entirely satisfactory, it is open to the Secretary of State to hold an investigation as from the year 1952.
The purpose of this Amendment is to add flexibility to that arrangement so that, in certain circumstances, it will be possible for the Secretary of State, if he thinks it wise, to hold an investigation at an earlier date. The Amendment makes the administration of this clause more suitable and more flexible, and also, possibly, more adaptable should circumstances not work out entirely as it is hoped they will. I recognise entirely the purpose of this Bill and I fully appreciate it; I think that in many ways it is well founded. But whether in practice it will work out as well as the Government hope, I do not know. I feel it proper and wise that some wider measure of flexibility should be incorporated which enables alteration to be made should this prove in the light of experience to be necessary. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 15, at end, insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, the House will remember that the noble Earl raised a somewhat similar point during the Committee stage and I promised to look at it again to see whether it was possible to meet it. The noble Earl has now been good enough to put down a slightly modified version of the Amendment which he moved then. He will remember—and possibly the House will remember—that when I agreed to look

967
again into this particular point I did so with the proviso that if he found words which were acceptable to the Government they should apply only to Scotland, and not to England and Wales. The noble Earl has been good enough to put his Amendment in this modified form, and I am pleased to accept it.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I beg to thank the noble Lord for what he has said. I can assure him that it will give great satisfaction to many local authorities in Scotland.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 35 [Draft lists]:
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in subsection (1) (b), to delete "a copy," and insert "three copies." The noble Lord said: My Lords, those of your Lordships who were here during the Committee stage of this Bill will remember that we had some discussion then on the provision in Clause 35 about the sending by the valuation officer of one copy only of the valuation list to each rating authority. We pressed from this side that there should be enough copies for rating authorities in widely scattered areas to display them in convenient places—as for instance in the local church or in the village hall, should there be one in the locality. This would mean that occupiers who had had assessments made on their property need not go all the way to a town, which might be some way from their place of residence, but would have easier access to the official notification of the new assessment.
During the Committee stage, the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said that he would take back this part of the Bill and look at it again. It was suggested in the hearing of the whole House that we should meet to discuss this together. I am glad to say that we have done that, and as a result of our discussion I have put down this Amendment, by which three copies of the valuation list, instead of only one, would be supplied. The necessity of having three copies, instead of two, arises because nowadays the paper is printed upon on both sides. If one part of a list is cut then damage may be done to some other part of it. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to accept this Amendment. I believe that as the result of our discussions he will be able
968
to do so, and its adoption will mean that the people affected will be able to ascertain their new assessments without being put to the trouble of going to the Town Hall or wherever may be the headquarters of their local authority. This, and the following Amendments on this page, all hang together, the others being merely consequential on that which I am now moving. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 6, leave out ("a copy") and insert (" three copies ").—(Lord Llewellin.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, as the noble Lord has rightly said, there was agreement on this and I am going to accept the Amendment. I would just add that in the circular to local authorities the Ministry of Health will indicate to them the purpose for which extra copies are being sent—that is, so that they may be broken up and displayed in the locality.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, perhaps I may take the opportunity of thanking the noble Lord for accepting this Amendment and also for stating that in this circular all necessary information will be given to the local authorities so that they will know what they are expected to do with the extra copies.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD LLEWELLIN: The next Amendments, as I have already indicated, are consequential. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 22, line 16, leave out ("the copy") and insert ("the copies ");
Page 22, line 17, leave out ("is") and insert ("are");
Page 22, line 19, leave out ("the said copy") and insert ("one of the said copies");
line 22, leave out ("the said copy") and insert ("a copy of the draft list")—(Lord Llewellin.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 56:
Advertising stations to be separate hereditaments in certain cases.
56. Where the right to use any land (including any hoarding, frame, post, wall or structure erected or to be erected on the land, and including also any wall or other part of a building) for the purpose of exhibiting advertisements is let out or reserved to any person other than the occupier of the land, or, when the land is not occupied for any other purpose, to any person other than the owner of the land, that right shall be deemed

969
for rating purposes to be a separate hereditament in the occupation of the person for the time being entitled to the right, and shall be included in the valuation list as a separate hereditament accordingly, and, notwithstanding anything in section three or section four of the Advertising, Stations (Rating) Act, 1889, in estimating the value of the land for rating purposes no account shall be taken of any value or, as the case may be, of any increased value arising from the use of the land for the purpose of exhibiting advertisements in accordance with that right.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM had given Notice of a series of Amendments to Clause 56, the lust of which was to delete the opening words: "Where the right to use." The noble Lord said: In moving the first Amendment, may I suggest, for the convenience of your Lordships, that the remaining Amendments on this clause standing in my name should be discussed together, as they all have a bearing on the same subject, and are, in fact, consequential on the first Amendment? During the Committee stage of the Bill I moved an Amendment to insert a new clause in place of Clause 56, which we are now discussing, and, after hearing the points put forward by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill I agreed to withdraw it for further consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the limited object which I desire to be incorporated in the Bill can be attained by the Amendments which I have now set down on the Order Paper. The object is a simple one, and it is to ensure that the clause does, in fact, carry out the intentions of the Minister as he stated them when he introduced this clause in another place. He said that the purpose of the clause was not to create unfairness, and I will now read his words from Hansard. They appear in column 1256 and are as follows:
"The purpose of the clause is to restrict the advantages which the railway companies possess in the absence of the clause. Without this clause that property would not be rated for local purposes and the clause is moved in order to make it rated."
I should like to make it quite clear that there is no difference of principle involved in this matter, and there is no dispute as to whether advertising stations other than for railway advertisements or railway property should be rated direct or should be rated indirectly through the general cumulo, because the Minister has himself stated that he wants to take them out of the cumulo, He said—and I propose to read the actual words from Hansard:
970
"This is to make it quite clear that, where a piece of property is let out by a railway company or an electricity undertaking for the purpose stated in the clause, for advertising, it shall be possible to rate it as a separate hereditament. Local authorises were naturally anxious at the fact that these undertakings did not now appear on the local rating roll, and would be part of the cumulo of both electricity and transport, and, therefore, would only make an indirect contribution to the local revenues. We should not deny to the local authority the possibility of rating those hereditaments which could not be regarded as inseparable."
I would suggest that the clause as drawn fails in some respects, for technical reasons, to accomplish this object. By using the words "let out" or "reserve" it opens the door to all the legal uncertainties which, in fact, due to the use of similar words in the Rating Act of 1874, arose in regard to the rating of sporting rights on the derating of agricultural land. I think it would be found that although an advertising station owned by the railway might be used for advertising some commercial product quite unconnected with the railway, it would not be rated separately in accordance with the intentions of the clause; in fact it would only be so rated if it were "let" or "reserved."
I would suggest that, in course of time, no such sites would, in fact, be "let" or "reserved" and the railway department dealing with advertisements would not have to take into account any direct liability for rates in arriving at the charge to be made for advertising, and would thus be able to compete unfairly with the private contractor of advertisement space. What is more, the rating authorities would lose the possibility of rating those advertising stations. This Amendment, and the following Amendments, will ensure that the clause accomplishes its object, and will have the effect of leaving to be included in the cumulo all advertising stations which are used for advertisements of the railway itself, but advertising stations used for advertising anything not connected with the railways will become subject to separate rating. The Amendments also make the person who permits the space to be used the person liable to be rated, and thus the clause will maintain the same liability as in Section 3 of the Advertising Stations Rating Act, 1889. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 4, leave out from ("where") to ("any ").—(Lord Teynham.)
LORD HENDERSON: Clause 56 does not deal only with railways, and the Amendment radically alters the intention of the clause, quite apart from the point about railway advertisements. But as the noble Lord has stressed the aspect of railway advertisements, I will deal with that first. The noble Lord quoted from a speech by the Minister in the re-committal stage of the Bill in another place, but I think he did not go far enough in that reading of the speech, because the Minister went on to say:
"in other words, we are alienating from the railway cumulo certain advertising stations "—
LORD TEYNHAM: What column is this?
Lord HENDERSON: Column 1257—
"We are saying that where they are let out and contracted for as advertising stations, they shall be liable to local rates. The purpose of the clause is a mitigation of what the right honourable gentleman considers to be an evil."
The Minister was replying to a criticism made by a Member in another place. I think that makes it perfectly clear that the Minister not only knew what he wanted but was satisfied that the clause as drawn was achieving what he had in mind.
The noble Lord has argued that, as the Transport Commission do not have to pay rates on advertisements on the railways, except of course those which are let out, they will tend to undercut agencies who do have to pay rates. There seems no good ground for that assumption. The Commission are at present at an advantage in that they do not have to pay rent for advertising sites. They hold the property for other purposes. Agencies do have to pay rents, and therefore their overheads are inevitably higher. But the practice of the Commission is to charge the standard rates of the trade, which are understood to be graded, according to situation, on a recognised scale. There is not the slightest reason to suppose they will wish to depart from that practice. They will no doubt want to get the maximum rent they can from their advertising space. Apart from railway advertisements, the Amendments to Clause 56 would make separately rateable any advertisement—using the word of the Amendment—"of" any person other than the occupier. This phraseology seems to us to be just as difficult to work as the alternative new clause which the noble Lord moved on Committee stage and which was withdrawn.
972
It would produce an impossible situation in which every poster outside the grocer's, or the tobacconist's, or the newsagent's, would have to be separately assessed unless it contained simply the name of the shopkeeper or of something he himself produced. Having regard to those arguments, which I think prove conclusively that the Minister is achieving by the clause as it stands the purpose which he had in mind, I am afraid that I must say again that I am not able to accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
LORD TEYNHAM: I cannot say I am very satisfied by the reply of the noble Lord, but I was glad to hear the assurance that the Railway Executive will quote the standard rates of the trade. I am grateful for that assurance. In those circumstances I do not propose to press my Amendments, and I beg leave to withdraw the one I have moved.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 69 [Use of public rooms]:
LORD HYLTON LORD HYLTON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "shall be entitled to require" and insert "may request the permission of." The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will recollect that during the Committee stage it was felt in all parts of the House that Clause 69 as drafted was unfortunate. As it is drawn, it seeks to place the valuation officer—who in future will have no connection with any local government body—in a position to requisition what are referred to in the marginal note as "public rooms." The actual words are "shall be entitled to require." These public rooms may be the Guildhall or council chamber, or committee rooms of any local authority. It was felt, and felt strongly, I think, that this was not the best method to effect the purpose intended.
It was generally agreed that it would be much more effective, and would lead to better relations between the valuation officer and the local authorities concerned, if agreement could be reached between the two parties interested. It was agreed that these rooms, as in the past, should be available for the purpose required, but that an agreement between the parties concerned would be infinitely preferable to the very dictatorial method laid down in the clause. At the present time local

973
authorities are working under great pressure, and anything that will exacerbate the conditions of working between valuation officers and local authorities would be deplorable. It was with that in mind that I put down these Amendments, which follow one from another, to ensure that the valuation officers shall request permission from the local authority concerned for the use of the rooms. Your Lordships will see that in subsection (4) of the clause the power to determine any dispute is left in the hands of the Minister of Health. It was agreed, and clearly put by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, that the power to settle any disagreement should be left in the hands of the Minister. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 34, leave out ("shall be entitled to require") and insert ("may request the permission of ").—(Lord Hylton.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, my noble friend has given the reasons for this Amendment and the subsequent Amendments. We all recall that in the discussion on this point on Committee stage there was general agreement in the House that this sort of arrangement should be effected, so far as possible, by agreement. I pointed out why the Minister would require reserve powers but it was still felt that perhaps this was not the happiest way to achieve the agreed purpose, and it was taken back to be reconsidered. The Amendments achieve what the Minister had in mind, perhaps by a much better method and certainly one more conducive to amity. I am quite prepared to accept this and the consequent Amendments.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, since I took part in the discussion—indeed it was I who suggested that a compromise might be reached so that in default of agreement the Minister should decide—perhaps I may say that I think the words now put forward by my noble friend Lord Hylton will from the start put the whole matter on a more friendly footing. I am very much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, who I know has taken a considerable amount of trouble about this matter, for having persuaded the Ministry to accept this point, and for accepting the Amendment on behalf of the Government.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I should like sincerely to thank the noble Lord,
974
Lord Henderson, for his assistance in re-drafting the wording of this clause, which I am sure will help to secure those friendly relations that are so desirable between the various bodies interested in local government. I would ask the noble Lord if he can give me any assurance at this stage that the reasonable costs of lighting, heating and cleaning these rooms will be met by the valuation authorities, in the same way as they are met at present under the existing Local Government Act.
LORD HENDERSON: I can give that assurance to the noble Lord. I think the Ministry of Works are responsible for these premises.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I beg to move the remaining Amendments to Clause 69 standing in my name.
Amendments moved—
Page 41, line 36, leave out ("to make available for") and insert ("for the");
Page 41,line 38, leave out ("requirement any") and insert (" request of");
Page 41,leave out lines 40 and 41 and insert ("the council or authority shall not unreasonably withhold their permission ");
Page 41,line 42, leave out ("shall be entitled to require") and insert (" may request the permission of ");
Page 41,line 45, leave out from ("acts") to ("use") in line 46, and insert ("for the");
Page 41,line 48, after ("panel") insert ("on such days as may be specified in the request of");
Page 42, line 1, leave out from ("and") to the end of line 3, and insert ("the council or authority shall not unreasonably withhold their permission");
Page 42,line 11, leave out from beginning to ("shall") in line 12, and insert—
("(4) Where a request is made under subsection (1) or subsection (2) of this section, any dispute as to whether the permission of the county council or rating authority has been unreasonably withheld").—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
3.3 p.m.
Clause 76 [Meaning of "hypothetical 1938 cost of construction"]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to add to subsection (6):
"and any person shall be entitled to obtain from the rating authority a copy thereof for his own use upon payment to the authority of such fee as may be prescribed by regulation's of the Minister."

975
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is one to which I referred on the Committee stage of the Bill. Your Lordships will remember that under subsection (2) of this clause the Minister is to prepare for each rating area, after consultation with the rating authority, a statement; and what will be embodied in that statement is contained in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2). When that statement has been prepared it will be deposited with the offices of the rating authority, and the general public may go and inspect it as and when they please. All I want to ensure is that any person who wishes to purchase a copy from the rating authority shall be entitled to receive a copy if he pays the prescribed fee. I do not think there was any difference between the noble Lord and myself on the Committee stage of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 30, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, we regard this as a perfectly reasonable provision, and I am happy to accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 77 [Meaning of "hypothetical 1938 site cost "]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this Amendment deals with precisely the same point in the next clause of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 4, at end insert ("and any person shall be entitled to obtain from the rating authority a copy thereof for his own use upon payment to the authority of such fee as may be prescribed by regulations of the Minister ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 80:
Other small post-1918 dwelling-houses, except flats and maisonettes.
80.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the gross value of any small post-1918 dwelling-house which is neither a local authority or housing association dwelling-house nor a flat or maisonette shall be five per cent. of the hypothetical 1938 cost of construction of the dwelling-house plus five per cent. of what is for the time being the value of the site, estimated on the basis—
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "what is for the time being the value of the site" and insert:
"the value of the site on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-nine."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is rather an important Amendment, which I also raised on the Committee stage of the Bill. Clause 80 deals with the rating of "Other small post-1918 dwelling-houses, except flats and maisonettes." Under Clause 80 (1) your Lordships will observe that the assessment is to be:
"five per cent. of the hypothetical 1938 cost of construction … plus five per cent. of what is for the time being the value of the site."
It is the words at the end which I seek to omit, and I want to insert instead:
"the value of the site on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-nine."
What that will mean, as I understand it, is this. When a house comes to be reassessed, the valuation officer will make a calculation on the hypothetical cost of construction of the dwelling-house, plus 5 per cent. of the site value as at April 1, 1949. Once that has been done it will not be altered during the next quinquennial period: in point of fact it cannot be altered again, unless Parliament passes another Act dealing with this matter. I hope the noble Lord, who was certainly not averse to the previous Amendment, will accept this. Before I move the Amendment, perhaps I should make it quite clear that, as I understand what I have put down, if any house is built hereafter and comes up for assessment, the assessment will be on the hypothetical cost of construction, plus 5 per cent. of the site value on April 1, 1949. I think perhaps I should make that point clear to your Lordships, and if I have interpreted it wrongly, no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, will be good enough to tell me so. I do not want to repeat all that I said on the Committee stage of the Bill, which will no doubt be familiar to noble Lords who were here during that discussion. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 22, leave out from the first ("of") to ("estimated") and insert ("the value of the site on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-nine ").—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I think I can give the noble Earl an assurance on his understanding of the operation of the Amendment in relation to the date, and on its operation in relation to a new house built after the date. He is quite right in both eases, and I have pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 105 [Temporary grants by county councils to county district councils, parish councils, etc., in certain cases]:
LORD HENDERSONmoved, in subsection (2) (a), to delete "rateable value for that district for that year had been diminished by" and to insert:
"product of a rate of one penny in the pound for that district for that year had been diminished by a sum ascertained as follows, that is to say, by dividing by two hundred and forty."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is largely a drafting point. The purpose of subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 105 is to provide a method of ascertaining the change in rate poundage for the year 1947–48 due to the loss of rateable value from the derating of railways and electricity; and if this change is more than 2d. a grant will be attracted from the county council. Some doubt has been expressed as to whether the rate poundage for 1947–48, determined under subsection (1), and the reduced rate poundage, determined under subsection (2), are strictly comparable, because under subsection (2) the rateable value which enters into the calculation is by definition the fixed figure of the rateable value at the beginning of the year, whereas under subsection (1) variations in rateable value are taken into account. This argument is probably unsound, but the Amendment removes any doubt by referring to the product of a rate of one penny (multiplied by 240) instead of to rateable value. I think perhaps this Amendment will meet the point of the next Amendment on the Paper, standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 21, leave out from ("the") to ("an") in line 22, and insert the said words.—(Lord Henderson.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has said,
978
the Amendment which he has moved does dispense with the necessity for the two Amendments to this clause which stand in my name. This matter was brought to my attention by the Wiltshire County Council. Unless we had put it right, it might have attracted a grant in the case of Swindon, which was not intended, I think, by the Minister or anybody else. I am told that the amount of grant attracted under the Bill as originally before another place would have been about £12,350. On the wording, if we had not amended it now, the calculation is that it would have come out at about £35,000. This is the fair way of doing it, and at present I am told that the estimate is about £18,000. The Bill was not meant to act unfairly in that way, and I think the Government have fully met the point raised by the Wiltshire County Council. There may be other cases in which it would have applied equally wrongly, but at any rate in this instance the people who raised the point are fully satisfied with the Amendment which the noble Lord has moved and they are grateful to the Government for having met their view.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD HENDERSON: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 45, leave out ("penny rate"), and insert ("rate of one penny in the pound ").—(Lord Henderson.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this drafting Amendment is consequential on the Amendment to Clause 105, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, in the Committee stage and accepted, providing for the insertion of subsection (7). The reference in the subsection to an amount due under a precept requires translation for Scotland. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 73, line 4, after ("county") insert ("for any reference to an amount due under a precept there shall be substituted a reference to a sum payable under a requisition issued under section two hundred and fourteen of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
3.24 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, after Clause 126 to insert the following new clause:
"Transfer to county councils of property and liabilities relating to county roads.
. Where by virtue of Part III of the Local Government Act, 1929 (which relates to the vesting, repair and maintenance of county roads) and whether before or after the passing of this Act—

(a) any road within the area or a borough or urban district council has, since the appointed day for the purposes of the said Part of the said Act, become a county road and the council have not within the time specified in the said Act, claimed to exercise the functions of maintenance and repair with respect to that road; or

(b) a borough or urban district council, having or being deemed to have claimed as aforesaid with respect to a county road in their area, have since the said appointed day relinquished the aforesaid functions with respect thereto;

the urban or borough district council and the county council may agree for the transfer to the county council of such property and liabilities of the borough or urban district council relating to the road upon such terms and conditions as may be specified in the agreement."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a point which was raised on the Committee stage, and the clause I then sought to insert was found to be worded not altogether suitably. It has now been redrafted with the co-operation of the noble Lord opposite, and I hope it is now more suitable. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 90, line 24, at end, insert the said clause.—(Lord Addington.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I am quite ready to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 131 [Provision of entertainments]:
LORD HYLTON LORD HYLTON moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided also that a local authority which is the council of a county district shall, before exercising either generally or particularly the powers conferred upon them by this subsection, consult the local education authority for the administrative county in which the district is situated with a view to ascertaining what facilities have been or are proposed to be provided by the local education authority in accordance with the duty imposed upon them by section fifty-three of the Education Act, 1944."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a new point which was not brought
980
out on the Committee stage. Clause 131, upon which a certain amount of discussion took place on a previous occasion, refers to entertainment and gives power to local authorities to levy rates for the provision of theatre halls, concert halls and dance halls—in fact very wide powers. The object of my Amendment is to effect a very simple thing: that local authorities, when wishing to exercise those powers, either generally or particularly, shall consult the local education authority for the administrative county in which the district is situated.
The marginal note of Section 53 of the Education Act, 1944 reads as follows:
"Provision of facilities for recreation and social and physical training."
It appears from that clause that the local education authority—which of course is a county council body—has a duty to provide in every county adequate facilities for recreation, social and physical training. There are thus two bodies, the county council and the district council, both being made responsible for, or being given powers to implement, facilities for all kinds of recreation, social and physical training. It seems clear that some form of co-ordination should be exercised at an early stage, and my Amendment suggests that that stage should be when the proposals are initiated—that is to say, at the county level. Local authorities should consult with their local education authorities as to what the latter have in mind to provide, before the local authorities themselves make application to the Minister for loan charges or any other form of expenditure. I think that by so doing a great amount of unnecessary correspondence and work for the Minister of Health will be saved.
Those of your Lordships who have seen any of the further education proposals submitted under the 1944 Act by local education authorities will realise that they include the erection of a large number of assembly halls and other buildings which are just the sort of buildings which may be required by the district council under the powers now proposed for them in Clause 131. It would be a saving, especially to the Ministries in London, if this prior consultation at county level took place. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 92, line 46, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Hylton.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will not press this Amendment. It is the general practice for local authorities to consult on matters of this kind, and I think we should leave it to their good sense to see that where there is need for it consultation will take place. It takes place at present in general practice, and we can rest assured that it will take place normally in future.
LORD LLEWELLIN: May I ask one question on that point? If an extra hall, or anything of that sort, is being built for any of these facilities, I take it that an application will be made to the Ministry from the local authority for a loan towards the expenditure. Before dealing with it, would not the Minister normally make inquiries in the locality, to see whether or not similar buildings were being erected by some other authority?
LORD HENDERSON: He certainly would; and he would insist on consultation taking place if it had not already taken place. He would not authorise a loan unless the case for its necessity were made perfectly clear.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I think the noble Lord has rather missed my point. What I want is prior consultation before any Ministry is brought into the picture. If I may say so, I think the noble Lord is a little optimistic in his suggestion that the local authorities—that is to say district councils—will in fact always consult with the local education authority. The noble Lord suggests that it always is the case, but from what experience I have, I am afraid that it is not always so. But this is not a question of principle in any way, and if the noble Lord who, after all, is responsible, is satisfied that such consultations will take place—and I think he will agree that they are eminently desirable—I will not press this matter, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved to insert the following new subsections:
"(4) A local authority who propose to borrow money for any of the purposes authorised under this section shall, before applying to the Minister for his consent to the borrowing, publish in such local newspapers, and in such other ways, if any, as appear to them best suited for bringing the matter to the attention of persons concerned, notice of their
982
proposal, specifying the amount which and the purposes for which they propose to borrow and the time (not being less than twenty-eight days from the publication of the notice) within which any objection to the proposal may be made to the Minister.
(5) Where any such objection as is mentioned in the last preceding subsection is made to the Minister within the time specified in the notice aforesaid and is not withdrawn, the Minister shall not, unless in his opinion the objection is frivolous, consent to the borrowing of any money for the purposes in question until he has caused a public local inquiry to be held into the proposal, and, in considering whether or not to give his consent to the borrowing of any money for those purposes, he shall consider the report of the person by whom the inquiry was held."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that on the last occasion on which we were dealing with this Bill we had some argument, and indeed a Division, on Clause 131. The three Amendments which are down on the Order Paper to-day in my name all run together, and with your Lordships' permission I will discuss them together. On the last occasion we inserted words in Clause 131 which now form subsection (10) of that clause. Looking at those words in the interval between the Committee stage and the present stage—I may as well be quite frank—that Amendment seemed to many of us to have gone rather too far and not indeed to be completely applicable. First, as drafted it paid little attention to the position in Scotland. Your Lordships will see, in subsection (10) of Clause 131 as it now stands in the Bill, that the procedure laid down is the same as hat under the Sunday Entertainment Act of 1932.
Neither House of Parliament, even in 1932, or in any other year, would, I think, dare to suggest that there should be general opening of cinematograph theatres in Scotland; therefore the Entertainment Act of 1932 does not apply at all to Scotland. The procedure is linked up as it might apply to Scotland in the case of a private Bill, but there is no provision in Scotland for any local poll as there is in England and Wales. What happens there is that representations are made to the Secretary of State—any local government elector can do that. Those representations are considered by the Secretary of State, or the people in his Department may consolidate them and put up the case to him; and then he, in his unfettered discretion, can allow or disallow the provision the local

983
authority sought to apply. That is the procedure in Scotland. Had we tried to adapt our present proposals we should have had to adopt completely distinct procedure for the Northern part of the United Kingdom and the Southern part.
Incidentally, subsection (10) goes a little far when it is realised that subsection (6) of Clause 131 repeals many provisions which allowed local authorities to employ, say, a band to play in a public park in their neighbourhood. That is a position which certainly I, and other noble Lords on this side who spoke in favour of the new subsection (10), did not have in mind. We do not wish to make it impossible for a local authority to have a band playing in a public park. The kind of expenditure we had in mind was not annual expenditure, and I think the noble Lord is right in his view on that matter; if it is found that a local council has been extravagant in its annual expenditure, the ratepayers can turn the council out at the next election. In short, in the case of ordinary current expenditure the situation is met by ordinary democratic means, but large capital expenditure is in a different category, because that expenditure is lasting, and there might be a burden on the locality for a long time afterwards; for whether it be a big municipal theatre or anything else of the kind it has to be maintained or something has to be done about it by successive generations of local government electors—but that is rather locking the stable door after the horse has got out.
So I am seeking now to take out subsection (10) which we inserted on the last occasion, and to substitute for it provisions by which, if objection is made to this expenditure by the local government electors, a local inquiry where the whole thing can be ventilated shall be ordered by the Minister. If the Minister finds a substantial body of opinion in the locality against the expenditure, then he has in his hands the right remedy, which is, not to give his sanction to the loan. The great advantage of the subsections which I am now submitting in lieu of the other one is that this procedure can apply equally in England and Wales and in Scotland at the same time. In fact it is quite normal at present for the Minister, if he thinks it necessary, to send down an inspector to hold such a public inquiry.
984
But in cases involving exceptional expenditure of this kind, for projects which may be turned down on submission to a local poll, it is necessary generally that if there are objectors there shall be a local government inquiry. It is the kind of provision which I very much hope the noble Lord, on behalf of the Government, will be able to accept. At any rate, I have no doubt that he will think it far less objectionable than the one which was adopted last time. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 93, line 40, at end insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Llewellin.)
LORD HENDERSON: The noble Lord has put the case for his Amendment fairly and straightforwardly, and there is nothing for me to add. As the noble Lord said, the Amendment refers to capital expenditure. The present practice is for the Minister to hold an inquiry when application for a loan is made. This Amendment is to convert the present practice into a statutory obligation, and I am quite prepared to accept it.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: Having been the culprit who moved the insertion of subsection (10) on behalf of my noble friend Lord Llewellin, I frankly admit that I had no idea that it did what my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, tell me it does. For that reason, I am only too happy to see it disappear and this new subsection inserted. As the noble Lords have said, this subsection deals entirely with capital expenditure, which was the one thing which was worrying me when I moved the other Amendment on the Committee stage of the Bill. I am grateful, and I am happy to see subsection (10) depart.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 94, line 40, at end insert—
("(a) no money shall be borrowed for the purposes authorised under this section except with the consent of the Secretary of State;
(b) for any reference to the Minister there shall be substituted a reference to the Secretary of State.")—(Lord Llewellin.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this is the necessary Scottish adjustment which arises from the acceptance of the new

985
subsections (4) and (5) just moved by the noble Lord. Paragraph (a) is required because in Scotland, unlike England, under the permanent legislation dealing with borrowing by the local authorities the consent of the Secretary of State is not required, unless a resolution to borrow fails to obtain a two-thirds majority.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, this Amendment is agreed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 95, line 10, Leave out subsection (10).—(Lord Llewellin.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, after Clause 134, to insert the following new clause:
"Assistance by local authorities to other bodies.
. A local authority in England or Wales may, with the consent of the Minister given either generally or specially, contribute towards the expenses of any body carrying on activities within the area of that authority, being activities for the purpose of furthering the development of trade, industry or commerce therein, or of giving advice, information or other assistance to persons resident therein, or otherwise for the benefit of that area or those persons."
The noble Lord said: My Lords this is another matter which was referred to on Committee stage. The clause then suggested has been redrafted, with the cooperation of the noble Lord opposite. I hope that it is now satisfactory. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 134, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Addington.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, this is a useful provision. I am glad to be able to accept it.
LORD ADDINGTON: Thank you very much.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 136:
power to assist in performance of transferred functions.
136.—(1) Where, by or under the Electricity Act, 1947, or any Act passed during the present Session providing for the establishing of public ownership of the gas industry, any undertaking theretofore carried on by a local authority is transferred to any other body, the authority may enter into an agreement with the body for the performance by the authority, as agent for the body, for such period as may
986
be specified in the agreement, of such of the functions of the body as fall to be performed within the area of he authority as may be so specified.
LORD ADDINGTONmoved, in subsection (1), to omit "as fall to be performed within the area of the authority." The noble Lord said: My Lords, This is a slight modification to a clause that was put in at the previous stage. It has now become desirable to delete the words in lines 45 and 46, which would limit a local authority to the performance of functions only within their own area. I understand that this has been agreed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 96, line 45, leave out from ("body") to ("as") in line 46.—(Lord Addington.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, the noble Lord has explained his Amendment. I am quite prepared to accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 145 [Repeals]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I apologise to the House that I have one brief manuscript Amendment to move. It is an Amendment to Clause 145, page 103, line 37, after the word "different" to insert the word "rating." It is a purely consequential Amendment on the Amendment which the noble Lord accepted to Clause 72, when we inserted the word "rating" in subsection (1). My attention has only just been drawn to the matter. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 103, line 37, after ("different") to insert ("rating").—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, my noble friend has rightly explained that this is a consequential Amendment. I am glad to accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution):
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Henderson.)
3.44 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, before we part with this measure, I think

987
it right that I should say a few words. When I first came to look at the Bill, and started reading its clauses, I was rather appalled at the complicated nature of a good deal of it. I do not know whether the same thought occurred to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, when he first looked at it, but perhaps I may be permitted to congratulate him on the way he has mastered the Bill and, also, on the manner in which he has striven to meet us on every reasonable point (and most of them have been reasonable) that we put up. We may all rejoice that once again we have shown the value of this House as a revising Chamber, and that we are sending back a better Bill to the other place. I hope they will be wise enough to accept all the Amendments which have been agreed upon here and that this will be the closing chapter of the Bill in this House—because I must confess that I do not want to have to read through all its clauses again. While I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, I think we may also congratulate ourselves on a good job of work.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, perhaps I may add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and thank him for the manner in which he has accepted the many Amendments which I have moved. I do not wish to repeat anything which was said by the noble Lord behind me, but I desire to make a personal explanation to your Lordships. During the Committee stage of the Bill, I moved an Amendment to leave out subsection (2) of Clause 128, which dealt with subscriptions to local government associations. In the course of my remarks, I unfortunately said that the National Association of Local Government Officers were a trade union, that they were affiliated to a political Party and that in due course of time they paid their levy to the Socialist Party. Since then, I have had many letters of a somewhat vigorous tone telling me that this Association are entirely free from all politics, that they subscribe to no political Party and that they have no intention whatsoever of doing so. If I have misled any of your Lordships with my remarks, which were based on information that I had received and which were made on my own initiative, then I unreservedly withdraw them on this occasion.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, I, too, should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, on the way in which he has tackled this Bill. I do not pretend that I was able to understand every line of it when I came to read it. Nevertheless, I congratulate the noble Lord on completing his task in such an efficient manner. If bouquets are to be thrown, I do not see that it is right that all the bouquets should come only from one side of the Houe. I know that every noble Lord sitting on these Benches would like to join other noble Lords in expressing their appreciation of what the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has so well and truly done.
I am glad that the noble Earl, Lord Munster, has acknowledged his error in what he said about N.A.L.G.O. Those of us who serve on local government bodies know N.A.L.G.O. well, and N.A.L.G.O. would be the first to claim that they are a body quite as respectable as the Primrose League, of which the noble Earl is such a distinguished member. I should also like to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Munster, on making such a handsome apology—or, at least, an explanation. Apparently he was afraid that the ratepayers were going to have all sorts of fancy entertainments, including the noble Earl's favourite entertainment—nigger minstrels! He has retracted his previous statement and has given us a handsome explanation. Seriously, though, this Bill is a monumental piece of work, in connection with which the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has done credit to both himself and the Party to which he belongs.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I would like to express my personal gratification at the generous words that have been said about me in connection with this Bill. What I really want to do, however, is to express my thanks to the House. Noble Lords will remember that when we came to the Second Reading it fell to me to explain that we were working with a very short time limit—for obvious reasons—and I had to appeal to the House to give consideration to this matter in the light of the time-table. The reason we have got through so rapidly and successfully is that noble Lords in all parts of the House have responded to the appeal which was then made. It would therefore be wrong for me to allow the Third Reading to pass without expressing to

989
your Lordships, on behalf of the Minister and the Government and also, if I may say so, on behalf of myself, our thanks for the response which has been made to our appeal.
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
Bill passed and returned to the Commons.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order): an Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS.
3.52 p.m.
LORD DOWDING LORD DOWDING had the following Notice on the Order Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they will (a) forthwith extend to other domestic animals the provisions applicable to cattle and calves in licensed slaughterhouses, (b) forthwith prohibit the slaughter by knife of domestic animals in full consciousness, in any circumstances, and (c) at the first opportunity legislate for the improvement of existing slaughterhouses, both in design and in capacity, so as to obviate all cruelty in the process of slaughter; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is with some diffidence that I have taken it upon myself to raise this question in your Lordships' House. There are many noble Lords who are more qualified by experience to deal with the question, and many perhaps who know more about the facts; but I yield to nobody in the depth and sincerity of my feeling on this subject, and this must be my excuse for rushing in where angels, for one reason or another, have not recently trod. For convenience in handling, I have divided my subject into three parts. The first part deals with the killing of animals in licensed slaughter-houses; the second part aims mainly at practices obtaining outside licensed slaughter-houses, and the third part deals with the adequacy both in capacity and design of the slaughter-houses themselves.
In the Slaughter of Animals Act, 1933, provision is made that the humane killer, or some mechanically operated appliance, shall be used on all cattle and calves
990
killed in licensed slaughter-houses; further, that a mechanical or electric stunner must be used on all pigs killed in bacon factories or slaughter-houses where electric power is available. But that is all; there is no statutory protection for sheep and lambs, and only partial protection for pigs. It will be noticed that there is no provision that the mechanical stunner must be used in those slaughterhouses where electric power is not available. In addition, every local authority had to decide within one year whether they would pass a resolution bringing sheep and lambs under the protection which was afforded to other animals.
The present position in England and Wales is as follows. There are 1,440 local authorities, and of those 1,198, or about 85 per cent., have voluntarily accorded to sheep and lambs the protection afforded to other animals. Of the remaining 242 authorities, 31 have refused to give that protection to sheep and lambs, and the remaining 211 authorities do not include in their areas slaughter-houses which are active to-day. Before the war there were 17,600 slaughter-houses, and that number has now been reduced to 600; so it is not impossible that some slaughter-houses may be re-opened in the territories of the 211 authorities which have none at present under their jurisdiction. Therefore, my first question to His Majesty's Government is whether they will make this protection statutory instead of leaving the question—which is one for the national conscience—to the chances of debate in the councils of local authorities.
I should like to take this opportunity of saying that there is no political criticism expressed or implied in this matter. It is nearly fifteen years since this Act was passed, and the responsibility of the present Government is correspondingly reduced. Nevertheless, the question was raised in another place just over a year ago, but then the discussion covered a much wider field than that covered by the questions which I raise today. It dealt, for instance, with cruelties alleged to be committed in the market place, and the discussion even wandered into the hunting field. Nevertheless, at that time the responsible Minister did say—and I am reading from Hansard:
"Finally I want to say that that Slaughter of Animals Act, 1933, covers completely all the objections the honourable and gallant Member makes to this slaughtering of

991
animals. The animals are protected within that Act."
I think perhaps I have already said enough to show that the protection is only partial, and animals killed outside slaughter-houses receive no protection whatsoever.
This brings me to the second part of my question. Before the war, owing to the plentiful provision of slaughter-houses and the small number of amateur stock raisers, the number of animals killed outside slaughter-houses was reduced to a very small proportion of the total. But now the situation is very different. Out of 17,600 slaughter-houses only 600 remain, and there has been a great increase in the number of pigs privately raised. I have found it difficult to get exact figures, but I think I shall not be far out if I say that in a year the number of pigs slaughtered outside licensed slaughter-houses is somewhere between 400,000 and 500,000. A large proportion of those poor animals, together with uncounted sheep and lambs, are killed with the knife, in full consciousness. I shall not attempt to harrow the feelings of your Lordships with any description of the process. If I can lay no claim to a tender heart I have, at least, a queasy stomach. But this I will say—that the cumulative mental and physical agony of these poor creatures cries to high Heaven, and it is all absolutely unnecessary. It could be stopped by a stroke of the pen. It is necessary only to legislate for the use of the humane killer in all cases.
The humane killer, as most of your Lordships are probably aware, is a kind of pistol. It fires a captive bolt which just protrudes far enough to reach to the brain of the animal and then is retracted into the barrel of the pistol. I have examined several types of humane killers. The cost of one type which I examined—and I should say that this is about the average cost—is eight guineas. Doubtless that price could be reduced considerably if manufacture were undertaken on a large scale. The cartridges are in two sizes; one for cattle and one for smaller beasts. They cost three-farthings apiece. One society with which I have been in touch—it is called the Council for Justice to Animals—has distributed gratis more than 150 humane killers. They have given some to sanitary
992
authorities to lend to licensed slaughter-men, and others they have given direct on the recommendation of inspectors. But it is not right that we should depend on private charity in a matter of this kind, nor, indeed, could any private body meet the large total requirements.
Now the objections which have been raised to the use of the mechanical killer are as follows. First, it has been suggested that the weapon is dangerous. Secondly, it has been claimed that the carcases of animals killed with it are imperfectly drained of blood, with the result that the meat is inferior both in appearance and keeping qualities. A third objection is made on the ground that the cost of slaughter is materially increased. Taking the first objection, that of danger, I say there is none. The pistol does not fire a bullet; it merely fires this captive bolt, which protrudes not more than an inch or an inch-and-a-half and is afterwards withdrawn automatically into the barrel of the pistol. As regards the argument about the blood content, I maintain that it is altogether fallacious. I could produce a great volume of evidence, if that were necessary, but I will quote only a few samples of the kind of testimony which is available. A test was made in the Birmingham slaughter-house in the presence of the chief veterinary officer, and, as a result of that test, the blood content, surprisingly enough, came out in favour of the humane killer. The figures were 2.5 per cent. of residual blood, as against 2.8 per cent.
The late Colonel Dunlop Young, an acknowledged authority on meat inspection, who was for many years chief official at Smithfield under the Corporation of the City of London, gave his opinion after examining the carcases of 1,255 animals stunned with the humane killer at Islington. He said:
"We have carefully examined the meat of the above animals in carcase form and we desire to state emphatically that no exception can be taken to the efficiency of the bleeding—the meat was sold at Smithfield, and no complaints were made or received. We are even of the opinion that it would have been impracticable to have selected otherwise than by chance the carcases of those animals slaughtered after preliminary unconsciousness had been effected by mechanical means."
Then there is the evidence of Mr. F. W. Stillman, the head of a big meat organisation at Exeter. He says:

993
"I claim to have killed over 50,000 animals, large and small, with the use of the humane killer, and I have received a large measure of support from those lovers of animals who form a big percentage of our population to-day."
But if practical proof were needed of the efficiency of the mechanical killer, I would merely state that of the twelve hundred odd local authorities who have contracted sheep and lambs into the protection afforded to other animals, not one has rescinded its decision, nor has any complaint been received from the 95 per cent. of slaughter-houses where power is available and pigs must be stunned. All the big bacon factories use the electric method. As for the cost, it is entirely negligible. It amounts to three farthings on a carcase, once the initial cost of the weapon has been defrayed.
I come to an aspect of the question which I had hoped to avoid. I refer to ritual laughter by Jews and Moslems for their requirements. I had hoped to make plain that it is quite unreasonable that we should be hampered in the process of setting our own house in order in this matter, which affects the national conscience, by the religious ceremonial of the strangers within our gates: I still maintain that view very strongly. At the same time, it is unfortunate that the specific immunity granted under subsection (1) (b) of the first section of the Act should undermine the law in all slaughter-houses where the two methods are practised concurrently. If a complaint is made that the law is being broken, it is only necessary to plead that the infractions are due to the requirements of the Jewish population and the issue is hopelessly clouded. The members of the Animal Defence Society subscribed to build a model abattoir at Letchworth. They leased this out to a private tenant under the most rigid guarantees that only humane methods of killing would be used. The Government stepped in and took over the abattoir: and then what happened to all the guarantees!
Two other points in connection with this immunity are that it is granted specifically as regards animal slaughter without "unnecessary suffering" and for the food of Jews and Moslems. This latter proviso is openly flouted. Many more beasts are killed by the Jewish method than are required by the Jews. The balance are sold to Christians. As regards the former proviso, that animals shall be slaughtered
994
without "unnecessary suffering," I do not know what was in the minds of those who drafted the Act when they spoke of "unnecessary suffering." What suffering do they consider to be necessary? A noble lady, noble in every sense of the word, the Duchess of Hamilton, has told me that she was present at a demonstration of the Jewish method of slaughter and she timed the proceedings by stop watch: it was seven minutes before unconsciousness released the poor victim from its pain. Seven minutes, my Lords! Think of the two minutes silence which we used to observe between the wars on Armistice Day. Think how long that seemed. Take three of these periods; add another half for good measure—and then talk about necessary suffering.
I make the broad assertion that the partial statutory protection under the Act is habitually set aside in all slaughterhouses. If it is observed anywhere, it is only because of the humanity of the management. The conditions may be even worse than I fear, because in these days it is not easy to find out what goes on in slaughter-houses. Accredited officers of humanitarian societies have been refused access to slaughter-houses. Take, for instance, the case where the supply of cartridges for the humane killer runs out, either through faulty prevision or for some other reason: is anybody so simple as to suppose that the process of slaughter comes to a standstill? I have now finished what I have to say on sections (a) and (b) of my Motion. I maintain that the conditions constitute a blot on the national conscience. They can be removed by a stroke of the pen. I urge with all the force at my command that that pen stroke be made.
As regards my question (c), in regard to accommodation, the arrangement and design of slaughter-houses, I agree that some delay may be unavoidable. It would not be reasonable to press that manpower and material should be expended on slaughter-houses when there are so many human beings who have not a roof over their heads. Nevertheless, the matter is urgent enough. Conditions in some slaughter-houses are a disgrace to a nation which calls itself civilised. The first thing that occurs to one is this fantastic proportion of slaughter-houses closed down in relation to those remaining—17,000 to 600. I rubbed my eyes when I saw those

995
figures. I thought a stray nought had slipped in from somewhere else. But not so; those figures were substantially confirmed in the debate in another place which I have previously mentioned. Would it not be possible to mitigate overcrowding, at any rate, in the slaughterhouses by re-opening some of the vast number that have been closed? Of course, it is not only a question of overcrowding. Some of the conditions can only be described as atrocious. I have heard from two independent sources of a West Country town where the terrified beasts are dragged across the road to a shed with open doors where they are dispatched coram populo and the children gather round to watch.
There are two kinds of cruelty. There is the infliction of pain and there is the infliction of terror. I do not know which is the worse. But I can say that both kinds are perpetrated in full measure, even when the final act is preceded by stunning, when the terrified animals are forced up to the killing point through the sights and sounds of previous operations and the smell of blood and entrails. What are the Government going to do? That is what everyone wants to know, and what nobody can find out. Are they going to hand the slaughter-houses back to private enterprise? Are they going to hand them over to local authorities? Or are they going to nationalise them? In the interests of decency and humanity this question ought to be answered, so that plans may be considered and may be ready for implementation when the national situation allows this blot to be removed from the national conscience. These facts, these figures, these statistics, are but trees in the wood. I have dealt with them in detail so as to show that the difficulties are not insuperable, and so that no one shall say of me that I could not see the trees for the wood. But it is upon the wood that my eyes are fixed—the great dark wood of human callousness and cruelty. If the remedies were ten times as difficult and expensive to apply, I should still plead for their application.
Who is to blame for all this? We are all to blame. I am to blame. I have lived on this planet for sixty-five years and this is the first time that I have raised my voice in the interests of the animals.
996
Why? Because I did not know. Why did I not know? Because I did not choose to find out. I was one of those many people who ignore all the proceedings between the gambolling of the lamb in the field and the appearance of the joint on the dinner table—and some of those proceedings are not pretty. I am not one of those who believe in the literal truth of every word of the first chapter of Genesis, but I do believe that man was placed over the beasts of the field by the Creator in a position of trust. To all intents and purposes, man is god to the beasts; they have no appeal from his decisions. I am not a tilter at windmills—but I believe that in the long course of human evolution the time will come when man will no more need or desire to eat the flesh of animals. But that day is not yet. In the meantime we shall continue to use them for food. Well and good. There is, however, this proviso: that when they have spent their humble lives in our service, we shall take those lives with every precaution that humaneness and mercy can devise. Man, through his association with animals, is responsible to God for their evolution. Man can take, but he cannot destroy life. If in his greed and blindness he sends his charges across the border, crazed with terror and agony, he sets in motion a cause which by immutable law will be followed by its inevitable effect. I beg to move for Papers.
4.26 p.m.
LORD MONK BRETTON: My Lords, provided the honour of making a maiden speech is not entirely eclipsed by the boredom of those listening to it, one hopes that it is going to be welcome. As an agriculturist, I feel that I may briefly contribute to the debate on the last part of the subject raised by my noble friend. The Englishman, formerly one of the greatest meat-eaters of the world, ought to be able to arrange these matters satisfactorily; and it is a subject about which the Englishman has been traditionally conscientious. The present system grew out of the war and the necessity for rationing, and it contains several evils which have come to light. The main evil, which has already been mentioned, is that of overcrowding live animals before slaughter. I myself have visited a public abattoir, and I was not convinced of the adequacy of the premises. When I was

997
informed that soon the number of killings in that abattoir were to be doubled, in order to reduce difficulties in other abattoirs, I felt that the position must be growing very serious. The first thing over-crowding causes is cruelty, even if it is unintentional.
Another matter which I think I should mention is that animals are kept too long under bad conditions before slaughtering. That causes also financial loss. Not only do the animals become thinner, but the bruising of the meat through their being kept in too small a box is bound to spoil its quality. On going round the slaughterhouses one cannot but be impressed by a great many of the other inadequacies which should be mentioned. Hand in hand with the difficulties of accommodation for live animals goes the shortage of hanging capacity for the meat when it has been killed. Those two factors must be partially responsible for the reputation that home grown meat must be acquiring in this country to-day. The whole question needs careful attention. No adequate study of the advantages and economies of central slaughtering seems ever to have been undertaken; but now that we have had experience of central slaughtering for some time, it may be possible; to discover a great deal more about it than we knew before. I may mention that I believe that there are now doubts about its rigid application, particularly to rural areas. I think that that long-term policy should be considered, although I fully understand that it cannot possibly be implemented to-day. If we are experiencing loss of meat, it may be justifiable to spend something on accommodation; and if we are to spend something on accommodation, we should know the direction in which we are to proceed.
Meanwhile, as has already been stated by my noble friend, every effort should be made to open more slaughter-houses wherever possible. This is the best, the cheapest and the quickest remedy. I have also had in mind the question of the slaughter of meat according to the requirements of the Jewish faith. I should mention that the Slaughter of Animals Act, 1933, provides that animals shall be slaughtered in a separate chamber from the one in which they are subsequently bled and hung. That applied to all slaughter-houses built after 1933 and
998
applied also to Jewish methods of slaughter.
In the case of slaughter-houses built before 1933, however, where the full facilities were not available, the slaughter of animals actually in the chamber where the bleeding was done was permitted. That is a loop-hole in the Act to which I think attention should be drawn. It causes great distress to the animal and is deplored by slaughter-house staffs, who speak very strongly about it. I should like to say how pleased I am to have the opportunity of addressing you and of bringing these matters to the notice of your Lordships' House.
4.32 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, it is a high privilege to have this opportunity of warmly congratulating on your behalf the noble Lord, Lord Monk Bretton, on making his maiden speech to-day in your Lordships' House. He has spoken frankly and straight-forwardly of his own experiences in matters of which he has personal knowledge. I am sure it is your Lordships' wish and hope that he will come to your Lordships' House on many future occasions. I intend to intervene in this debate only for a short time but I would ask the noble Lord who is to reply two questions. First, is he satisfied with the present statutory position? The 1933. Act has been on the Statute Book for fifteen years. It is, of course, common knowledge that that is a private Act. To-day it is impossible for any private Act to be promoted and, therefore, it rests squarely upon the shoulders of His Majesty's Government to say whether they are satisfied with the existing state of affairs, or whether they are not; because it is by them, and them only, that any alteration can be made.
The second point I would like to make is this. Something over a year ago, in another place, I think it was Dr. Summerskill who said: "There is no widespread cruelty." I do not think anybody suggests there is widespread cruelty, but I would ask: Is there any assurance that there is adequate inspection? Supposing there were widespread cruelty, how would the noble Lord know? I believe I am right in saying that all, or virtually all, public slaughter houses—indeed all abattoirs—are under the control of the Ministry of Food. Therefore, His Majesty's Government have a direct

999
responsibility in this matter. I would like to ask whether there is adequate inspection both in the cattleyards and in the matter of slaughter itself. I submit respectfully that it is not enough to say that every official at an abattoir is necessarily an inspector: I do not think that is the case. The inspection in this matter is a special task, which should be undertaken only by those who are specially detailed and specially qualified to do so.
I would like to press the point which the noble Lord, Lord Dowding made—that there should be permitted the entry of accredited representatives of recognised societies. I feel that this is a case in which they are entitled to access. I believe I am right in saying there are something of the order of 30,000 to 40,000 animals killed in this country every day; that is a very large number. It is impossible to believe that those who engage in those tasks do not in some cases become, shall I say, a little casual, not to use any stronger word. It is the sort of task in which it is almost impossible that that should not be the case. It is necessary, I suggest, that someone should have the task of saying that the full standards—which I am sure the Minister would wish himself—are in fact fulfilled to their utmost.
I would like to refer your Lordships to the speech of the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition in the Foreign Affairs debate when he said:
"The things which unite us"—.
and I am quite sure that this is one, are—
"the love of liberty, the hatred of cruelty and oppression, the belief in justice…."
It is only a question of how we can most effectively put them into operation.
4.36 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON): My Lords, I should first like to say how grateful we are to the noble Lord, Lord Dowding, for having raised a subject which most people would be apt to overlook. I would also like to take the opportunity of congratulating both the noble Lord, Lord Dowding, and the noble Lord, Lord Monk Bretton, on their most excellent maiden speeches. I hope that this House will often have the benefit of hearing their remarks on future occasions.
1000
With regard to the Motion which is before us, I quite agree with the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, that there will be complete agreement on all sides of the House that we should, so far as possible, ensure that the most humane methods will be used in any necessary slaughtering of animals. I think we can start from that point with a considerable measure of agreement, and I do not think anyone on any side of the House would venture to disagree. So far as that goes, I am entirely in agreement with the noble Lord who moved this Motion. After that we come upon some practical difficulties, and it is only fair to say, looking at the question from the other side, so to speak, that this country is in the forefront in regard to the measures and precautions taken to ensure that cruelty is reduced to the minimum. We are not at all behind, but are in the forefront among the nations to-day. It is not the case, however, that we think there is no room for improvement. Obviously, the Government are only too glad to hear the views of your Lordships upon this matter, and to look into any possible steps that might be taken to improve conditions or to eliminate abuses. But when we come to the facts one sees that the problem is rather more difficult than perhaps at first it seems.
I should like to begin by concentrating on the question of animals killed in licensed slaughter-houses. As your Lordships know, cattle and calves have to be stunned or rendered senseless before slaughter. In other words they must be "instantaneously slaughtered or by stunning be rendered insensible to pain until death supervenes." This should be done by mechanically operated instruments in proper repair. I am dealing now only with animals in slaughterhouses—with calves and cattle. In regard to them, I think the provisions of the Act are fairly adequate. I do not think one could criticise or improve the conditions and rules which have been laid down. In regard to pigs the matter is slightly different. In slaughter-houses pigs should be and are, whenever possible, stunned by electricity. Whenever power is available that method is used; but it is quite true that where electricity is unavailable it is not possible for this practice to be followed. I am informed that in the Ministry of Food slaughter-houses pigs are stunned before actually being killed.

1001
With regard to sheep and lambs, the question, as your Lordships will know, was left to the discretion of the local authority. As the noble Lord, Lord Dowding, has pointed out, of the 1,440 local authorities—that is the figure, according to my information—1,200 insist on sheep being stunned, whereas 240 have not come into these arrangements. As regards the killing of goats and pigs, those animals can be excluded by a local authority from the protection given by the Act, if the local authority so wish; that is to say, however, that the animals have to be stunned unless the local authority pass a resolution to the contrary. Actually, there is a very small number of these animals killed in slaughter-houses. I have not been able to get the number of local authorities who have opted out of this provision, but I should think it is very small.
The point which surprised me in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dowding, was his objection to the reduction of the number of slaughter-houses from about 16,000 to approximately 600. His implication seemed to be that that was a reactionary step. I should have thought that in practice it was an improvement, because before the war slaughtering was carried out in all sorts of little backyards, knackers' yards and so forth, in which no adequate inspection could possibly be made or enforced; whereas getting slaughter-houses under central inspection is surely the first elementary step to (insure that proper measures are taken.
Now I come to what is, I admit, an extremely difficult problem, and that is the methods of Jewish and Mohammedan slaughtering. As your Lordships know, those methods were excluded from the Act, the reason being that under Mosaic and Moslem laws animals have to be killed by an authorised slaughterer and according to a certain ritual. If the animal is not killed in that way it is pronounced unclean by the Rabbi or other authority concerned, and no Jew or Moslem is allowed by his religion to eat the meat. How great the suffering is compared with that caused by the humane killer I am not prepared to say—it is a question of which I, personally, have no knowledge—but I believe there is some doubt among experts.
I would, however, put to your Lordships this problem. If we brought in a
1002
law or regulation which stopped this method of slaughter, then automatically we should be stopping the supply of meat to a large part of the community at a time when, first, food is extremely short and not only meat but potatoes and bread are rationed, and secondly the Government have had to call on everybody for the maximum amount of effort and exertion. I would remind noble Lords that this is a matter not for my own Department but for the Ministry of Food; and it is the opinion of my right honourable friend the Minister that legislation could not be introduced to alter the present position. However, there is one device which has perhaps ease d the situation a little, and that is the Weinberg Pen. This reduces very considerably indeed the time taken for this method of slaughter, by holding the animal and turning it round so that it can be slaughtered much more quickly than in former times. I ask your Lordships to realise the problem that the Government have to face in regard to the slaughter of animals for the Mohammedan and Jewish communities.
I come now to another point which is also difficult—the question of private premises. Could any legislation be brought in which would ensure absolutely that all animals killed on a farm or on private premises were killed humanely, or as humanely as possible? It is not a question of our being unwilling to secure that end, if it could be obtained, but we are up against big difficulties. The greatest perhaps is the question of inspection. Some farms—and other premises—are in remote districts, and it would be almost impossible to maintain continual and adequate inspection of all those premises. Moreover, I think your Lordships will agree that there is no point in bringing in legislation which cannot be rigidly enforced.
The second difficulty is that of cost. I think it was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Dowding, that the humane killer should be used universally, but, as he himself said, the cost of the humane killer is eight guineas. It would be difficult to compel every farmer to buy what is quite an expensive instrument and not in plentiful supply. I am told, too, that it is an instrument that must be used by someone who understands it and is skilled in using it; otherwise the cruelty and suffering that might be caused would be

1003
even worse than that occasioned by other methods. For these reasons, I think it is difficult to maintain that thousands of farmers should be compelled to possess and taught how to use this particular instrument.
Another question—a very important one—was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Monk Bretton, and that is the question of the construction and the capacity of premises. We have no illusions about the fact, nor do we believe that all is well in regard to premises used for slaughtering. We know what conditions are needed, and we envisage a time when slaughter-houses will be properly constructed and adequate. But in these days of acute difficulty in regard to materials—steel, bricks, timber and everything needed for building—when we are crying out for factories and for houses for the people who still have not a roof over their heads, the improvement of slaughter-houses is not a reform that we can immediately bring into operation. But that does not mean that the matter is not very much in our minds, or that we do not appreciate the necessity for extending and improving slaughter-house premises. Some of them are badly dilapidated, but that does not necessarily mean that inhumane methods of slaughter are used in them. We try to ensure that everything possible that can be done shall be done to prevent cruelty. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, raised one or two points. He asked, how do we inspect these premises to make sure that cruelty is avoided as much as possible? There is a system by which Ministry of Food inspectors examine these premises. I agree that the accredited representatives of the societies—
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Are these Ministry of Food inspectors not veterinary inspectors who inspect meat, rather than the methods of killing animals?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: So far as my information goes, these inspectors are quite definitely given instructions not only to examine the meat but also to see that everything is carried out in a regular and proper fashion, and that cruelty is not practised in any way. I did not know that the accredited representatives of societies were not allowed into the slaughter-houses. This has, however, been brought to my attention, and I will bring
1004
it to the notice of my right honourable friend. Then there is the general question of premises, which I think is a vital one. I may say that at this moment we are examining the Lucas Report on marketing, and the planning of slaughter-houses. The Report will have far-reaching effects, not only on marketing and slaughtering, but I cannot say what will be our future plans concerning slaughter-houses until this Report has been discussed further and we decide what the policy will be in regard to distribution of meat, slaughtering and everything else.
I would suggest to your Lordships that the chief weapon we have against any cruelty or barbarity in this matter is public opinion. I think we should pay a tribute here to men like the noble Lord, Lord Dowding, and to the societies which have carried on their campaigns to educate the public on this matter. I think that in the future that will be our greatest safeguard and method of approach. It is the gradual awareness of the public which will make cruelty impossible. One of the difficulties which I understand my right honourable friend is up against is the fact that people will not come forward and report cruelty when they see it. We occasionally receive reports of animals being driven to the slaughter-houses with unnecessary violence, and of the infliction of undue punishment, but we can hardly ever pin down someone who will come forward and give us the facts. It is an obligation, because under the Protection of Animals Act it is the duty of any policeman to arrest without warrant anybody who is inflicting cruelty on animals. If anyone will inform either the police or the local authority of the facts they will if necessary immediately institute proceedings. I am afraid that what I have said may in some ways be unsatisfactory but I hope I have been able to convince your Lordships that we have taken note of this subject. We hope that when we have framed our policy in regard to marketing, we can take great steps towards regulating the whole position concerning abattoirs, the collection of animals and their despatch in the most humane possible way.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: May I interrupt? The noble Earl spoke about private slaughter-houses. I would ask, does he see any hope of extending the

1005
humane killing of sheep to public slaughter-houses to make it 100 per cent. humane?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: Under the Act, it is left to the local authority, but I cannot say, without notice of the question, whether that point can be brought in under the new Act.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: All the slaughter-houses are under the control of the Minister of Food, are they not?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: I think practically all slaughter-houses are at the moment. Certainly in the ones that are under the control of the Ministry of Food, stunning is carried out. When a local authority are outside that control, it is left to the local authority. However, I will examine that point.
4.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I hope that I shall be allowed to intervene even at this late stage of the debate, although I was not present during its earlier stages. Certain remarks have fallen from the lips of the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, in a reply which I think all your Lordships feel was informative and helpful, in so far as it could be and these remarks have prompted me to speak now. The noble Earl spoke of the reduction of the number of slaughter-houses down to a figure of 600. The noble Earl spoke rather as if the elimination of these small slaughter-houses was being achieved, or had been partially achieved. I confess that what is in my mind now is not the slaughter-house where animals are killed for food, but the knacker's yard where beasts are slaughtered for dogs' meat or other offal. Many of these still exist.
I have in mind one such place which is not far from where I live. I do not want to harrow your Lordships with any description of what obtains in that place, but I know only too well that the legs, the skeletons and the entrails of animals are scattered about outside. Any animal that is to be slaughtered is openly driven through the lane leading to the yard, in which I myself have seen horses' feet thrown about as though they were stones—quite apart from the skeletons and the offal. I am afraid that, contrary to my usual practice, I have acquired no knowledge of the law in the matter under discussion. I have
1006
not applied myself closely to it, and I confess that I have no knowledge of how the law stands. I do not know whether these knackers' yards are inspected. I do not know, if they are not supplying meat for food, whether they are subject to the same control as the recognised slaughter-houses. From what I have seen, I rather suspect that they are not. If that is the case, I am sure that the noble Earl, whose sympathy is undoubtedly with us in this matter, will do what he can to see that this state of affairs is rectified. I shall be happy to give him full particulars of the place I have in mind, if they will be of any assistance to him.
The next point is the question of the humane killer. Obviously, I am in favour of it, but I think that to a certain extent the public are misled by what is said about it. I believe the real cruelty is caused before the animal is killed. I question whether there is any difference between stunning an animal skilfully and killing it with a humane killer, but there is a difference between driving an animal through a yard full of the remains of other beasts to have its throat cut and having it stunned and taken in to be killed in a properly constructed abattoir. I feel that the places which I have in mind are supported in error by the public, because the advertisements about knackers' yards say, "Send your worn-out horses to us. We pay the highest prices. We kill them with the humane killer." But often there is much cruelty before killing. Often they do not kill those animals at all. They take the worn-out hunter or the broken down racehorse and sell it again; and, so far as I know, there is no law to prevent them doing that. Whiles I feel that it would be out of place and unnecessary to make any appeal to your Lordships in this matter. I would take this opportunity to make a very strong appeal to the public and to urge those sending any worn-out animals to be killed at the knackers' yards to change their minds. I hope that, when the van comes to take the animal away, they will see that it is killed on their own premises. It comes to the same thing in the end, and it avoids all the suffering to which the unfortunate beasts would otherwise be exposed.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: To answer one question which the noble Viscount asked me, as the noble Lord

1007
knows, the killing of all horses is subject to the provisions of the Slaughter of Animals Act; and they would have to be stunned. Knackers' yards are under the control of the local authorities. I should be grateful if the noble Lord would send me details of cases where unkind treatment of animals occurs.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: I am much obliged to the noble Earl. I am sure he will forgive me for not having mastered me law on the subject before I spoke.
5.0 p.m.
LORD DOWDING: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl who has replied for the Government for the courteous and kindly way in which he phrased his refusal. I do not suppose that Joshua expected the walls of Jericho to fall down at the first advance of his army, and perhaps I may have an opportunity of sounding a trumpet again if I am still permitted to address your Lordships' House. I do not know what is "cooking," and perhaps that opportunity will be denied me. For that reason I would like to take a little, more time, if I may, in dealing specifically with the answer I have received. In the first place we are told that this country is in the forefront of the countries of the world in scientific humanitarianism. I would say that that was a self-delusion. I would say that Switzerland is far ahead of this country. I know that Switzerland would not for a moment tolerate the Jewish methods of slaughter in their beautifully constructed and conducted abattoirs.
This matter of the Jewish and Moslem slaughter is one which I maintain should be fought. A Jewish Rabbi during this, last summer spoke in a series of talks on the wireless called "What I believe," and this is what Rabbi Dr. Mattuck said in July, 1947:
"The way is charted for man by the Law. The Law is therefore also a gospel, it promises salvation. Leaving aside its ceremonial prescriptions, which, as the Prophets taught long ago, have only a functional and therefore a relative and changing value, it shows the way of the good life."
That is the point that I want to emphasise: the ceremonial of the law is essentially ephemeral. We put a stop to the practice of suttee in India. The Mormons are no longer allowed to exercise unrestricted their activities in America. Even
1008
the right reverend Prelates who sit opposite, through the intervention of St. Paul, are severally restricted to the enjoyment of one wife; and I personally maintain that we should not take it for granted, that because this is a canon, or rather a custom, of the Jewish priesthood it is therefore unalterable. I understand that many Jews had to eat unsanctified meat during the war, and I have yet to learn that they suffered any ill-effects. Be that as it may, if the Government do not sec the question from my point of view, if they say, "No; we will not stand out against the Jews in that respect," then at least surely they can ensure that the Jewish practices are not carried out in our slaughter-houses and that a totally unnecessary number of beasts are not slaughtered by the Jewish method for sale to the Christian community.
When the noble Earl indicated that the reduction in the number of slaughterhouses had resulted in an improvement, I was not able to follow him. If all those 600 slaughter-houses that remain were modern, decently designed and constructed abattoirs, there would be strong point in what he said. But they are not. Some of these 600 places are mere dirty shambles, like the instance I quoted in the West country. With regard to the main point, which is the vast number of animals that are slaughtered outside slaughter-houses, I quite agree that it would be difficult (impossible if you like), to enforce absolutely the use of the humane killer throughout the whole country. But, on a whole, we are a law-abiding people, and if it were the law that the humane killer should be used surely a great number of people who do not use it now would then use it. I saw in a newspaper the other day that Mr. Strachey, for quite another reason—namely, to prevent the black market slaughtering of pigs—is contemplating an order that privately owned animals must be slaughtered by licensed slaughtermen. If he is considering that, there is a means of bringing into force what I want, because they are licensed slaughtermen and they must all be provided with the humane killer. I offer that point to the noble Earl, in the hope that he may go into it a little further.
Finally, there is this question of public complaints. That was why, at the beginning of my speech, I said that I wished

1009
to confine my remarks to the slaughter of animals for food, and not to consider external cruelty. If any noble Lord wishes to raise the question of cruelty to animals in any form whatsoever, he will find a stout supporter in myself. But the question of public information about such cruelty can come into this question only in market places, or by drovers, and so on; the public do not know what goes on inside the slaughter house. That is one of the points I make. When I put down this Motion I was asked whether I wished to divide the House upon it. I do not want to divide the House; I want to unite the House solidly to the active pursuit of the question so that a really humanitarian result may be obtained. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

ROYAL MARINES BILL.
Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, before this House adjourns for Public Business until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday next, may I say that the principal business on that day will be a debate on a Motion on the
1010
marketing of agricultural produce, to be moved by the noble Earl, Lord Radnor?

MERSEY AREA (CONSERVATION OF WATER) ORDER, 1948.
Report by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons under Section 3 of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, that no Petition has been presented against the Order: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of six Members to join with the Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of Thursday last, to consider all Consolidation Bills of the present Session: The Evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to Members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further notice. Leave given to the Joint Committee to report from time to time.
House adjourned at twelve minutes past five o'clock.