Sitting of 23 June 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  UNIVERSITY OF SHEFFIELD (LANDS) BILL
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES)PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  UGANDA (MAKERERE COLLEGE)
  Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will take steps to assist in obtaining a suitable history teacher for Makerere College, Uganda, which has been without instruction in history for the last year.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): Makerere College is an autonomous institution, and is, therefore, responsible for its own staff recruitment. I understand, however, that, with the assistance of the Inter-University Council for Higher Education in the Colonies, the College has been making every effort, both by public advertisement and private inquiry, to recruit a suitably qualified candidate. I myself am, of course, willing to take any steps I can to assist in the discovery of suitable candidates.
  Mr. Digby: Does not the Colonial Secretary agree that it is highly unsatisfactory that this college—the most important training college in the whole of East Africa—should be completely without a history teacher? Will he do something about it?
  Mr. Creech Jones: We are desperately concerned about it, obviously. There was a temporary appointment which fell through.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the difficulty in obtaining a teacher is the result of the insistence on university standards? Would it not be much better to accept a lower standard until such time as Makerere College acquires university status?
  Mr. Creech Jones: It is our intention to transform this college to university college status as soon as possible, and it is imperative that we should have academic teaching of a fairly high standard.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what history this gentleman will teach?
  Mr. Creech Jones: The requirement is that he should also be able to do history research and develop a history department and engage in other work. He would be the leader on this side in the university college.
  Mr. George Thomas: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he is satisfied that the salary offered is such as will induce a graduate to accept the appointment?
  Mr. Creech Jones: As I pointed out, this institution is autonomous. I am not responsible for it.

  COLONIAL EMPIRE

    Officials (Expatriation Pay)
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies for what reasons the expatriation payments to Colonial officials are pensionable; if he is aware that this policy is causing dissatisfaction in Colonial territories; and whether it will now be reconsidered.
    Mr. Creech Jones: It is normal in the Civil Service for pensions to be based on the full permanent emoluments of the

    1329
    office. In some Colonies these emoluments are divided into basic salary, payable to all officers, and expatriation pay, payable in addition to basic salary to officers recruited from outside. If this expatriation pay were not pensionable, the pensions payable to the officers concerned would be substantially less than those earned by their opposite numbers in Colonies where the system of expatriation pay does not obtain. Indeed, the pensions would often be less than those earned by service in the same posts before the war. I am aware that there has been some local criticism in some of the territories, but it is not widespread or well-informed. I have no intention of reconsidering the position.
    Mr. Cooper: Does not the Colonial Secretary appreciate that in Malaya, Sierra Leone and Mauritius strong objections have been raised locally? Will he take those objections into consideration and see if a case has in fact been made out for altering the policy?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The criticism made is, of course, uninformed.

    Pulmonary Tuberculosis
    Dr. Strossasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the death rate due to pulmonary tuberculosis per 100,000 of the population for Uganda, British Honduras, Mauritius, Sierra Leone and Singapore, respectively.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The 1947 figure for Mauritius was 38.38 and for Singapore 155.
    In British Honduras, the number of deaths certified by medical practitioners as being caused by pulmonary tuberculosis gives a rate of 70 per 100,000 of the population, but only about 45 per cent. of total deaths are so certified.
    I regret that it is not possible to give figures for Sierra Leone or Uganda. In these territories arrangements for registration of deaths are still incomplete.
    Dr. Stross: Is the Secretary of State aware that all the figures given are inevitably on the low side owing to inadequate notification, and can we have an assurance that, if he accepts this, he also accepts that conditions there are inadequate for the treatment of pulmonary tuberculosis, and that we will do all we can to improve them?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Conditions are inadequate, and it is regrettable that the circumstances in most of these Colonies make the preparation of vital statistics and other figures very difficult indeed.

    Social Development Officers
    Mr. Donnerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what date Mass Education Officers were re-named Social Development Officers; and whether this change signifies any alteration, in or enlargement of their duties.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The title of the Mass Education Officer in the Gold Coast was changed to Social Development Officer in April of this year. I am not aware that a similar alteration has been made elsewhere. The answer to the second part of the hon. Member's Question is in the negative.
    Mr. Donner: Would the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance, in order to allay misgivings, that this change of name is not merely a technique to disguise any failure, or partial failure, in the mass education experiment in Africa?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I cart give the hon. Gentleman completely the assurance for which he asks. There was some difficulty in the case of the Gold Coast because in the Twi language it was difficult to find a phrase which covered the title "Mass Education Officer" and the term "Social Development Officer" has been suggested because in Twi it would read: "The man who teaches people to live better."
    Mr. Rankin: Will my right hon. Friend ensure that these officers are not tied to the routine duties of offices, but are encouraged to make living contact with the native peoples?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, that follows.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: Will my right hon. Friend be able to give the House at some early date an account of how well the mass education experiment is proceeding in Africa?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I will certainly make available to the House any information I have.

    Constitutional Changes
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the Protectorate and Provincial African Councils

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    were not consulted in regard to projected changes in the constitutions of various Colonies; and whether the procedure of consultation now being used in Sierra Leone may be followed in discussion on the Nyasaland constitution.
    Mr. Creech Jones: In all African Colonies where changes in the Constitution have recently been made or proposed, representative African opinion has been fully consulted, although not necessarily through Protectorate or Provincial Councils, which, as my hon. Friend will be aware, do not exist in all the Territories.
    In Nyasaland, as stated in my answer to my hon. Friend of 16th June, the Protectorate and Provincial Councils are being kept informed of constitutional developments. These Councils have only recently been established and one of the objects of their formation is to provide a means for consulting African opinion on matters of major importance. I should wish to have further experience of this procedure, which I have no reason to suppose will not have to be satisfactory in practice, before considering whether any change is necessary.
    Mr. Skinnard: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that a much happier state of affairs now exists in the Colony of Sierra Leone following the new procedure of consultation adopted after earlier protests?
    Mr. Creech Jones: It is a very good practice and we shall, of course, try to follow it wherever possible.

  MALAYA

    Trade Unions
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why he was not consulted by the Governor of Malaya in connection with the decision to outlaw the Pan-Malayan Federation of Trade Unions, the nine State Federations of Trade Unions and the Trengganu General Labour Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
    Mr. Creech Jones: There was no occasion to consult me. These bodies do not comply with the requirements of the Trade Unions law of the Federation of Malaya. On application for registration they have not been registered because of this. They are consequently deemed by law to be
    1332
    unlawful associations but they have the right of appeal within 30 days against the refusal of the Registrar of Trade Unions, in the first instance to the Chief Secretary and in the second to the Supreme Court.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Will my right hon. Friend now take us to the next stage and resist any plea by the Governor to obtain powers to deport British citizens who are the leading figures in these trade unions, knowing as he does that the object of the Governor is to send these proposed deportees to that small part of China still governed by Chiang Kai-shek where the will be executed?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That is an entirely different matter; the Question is concerned with the registration of the Federation
    Mr. Gallacher: But is it not the case that the big rubber planters and tin monopolies are responsible for the suppression of the trade unions, and that they feel they can do anything now that there is a Labour Government in office?
    Mr. Creech Jones: There is no suppression of trade unions at all. This is an application for registration of federation, and all that is asked is that the law shall be complied with.

    Palestine Police Force (Ex-Members)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many members or former members of the Palestine Police have been offered employment on police duties in Malaya.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Staff requirements are being reassessed in the light of the present disturbances. I cannot yet say what the total requirement will be, or what proportion of any new posts will be recruited from former members of the Palestine Police, who are of course eligible for consideration.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does that mean that no definite offer has been made to any of these men so far, and if so, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that these extremely experienced and capable men will undoubtedly find themselves other employment before very long?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The hon. Member will realise that there are practical difficulties in introducing people with just

    1333
    this kind of experience in Malaya, but the problem is being actively explored and discussions are going on.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many former members of the Palestine Police Force are now unemployed?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That is another question.

  MALTA (WATER DEVELOPMENT WORKS)
  Mr. Orbachasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he proposes taking to secure delivery of the necessary machinery and materials to Malta to enable agreed water development works to be carried out.
  Mr. Creech Jones: The supplying firms have all been specially approached about the urgency of these requirements. As a result, earlier delivery has been secured and shipment of the machinery and materials has now commenced.
  Sir Wavell Wakefield: Is the Colonial Secretary aware that in spite of the plans announced by him to relieve the water shortage in Malta, there is still grave anxiety that the proposals will be inadequate, and could he look into it again to see what can be done to stop this real anxiety in Malta about the shortage of water?
  Mr. Creech Jones: I appreciate the anxiety and I replied to a question about this problem of water last week.

  BRITISH HONDURAS (X-RAY APPARATUS)
  Dr. Barnett Strossasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the only X-ray apparatus in use in British Honduras for the diagnosis of pulmonary tuberculosis has become obsolete; and what replacement by a new apparatus is contemplated.
  Mr. Creech Jones: A new X-ray machine was installed in March last and is in constant use.

  SINGAPORE

    Death Rate
    Dr. Strossasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the effect in Singapore of the Japanese occupation on the death rate due to phthisis and to tubercular meningitis; and what improvement has taken place since.
    Mr. Creech Jones: My reply contains a number of figures and, with my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Dr. Stross: Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend, may I ask him if he is aware that the essential difficulty there is the shortage of beds, and that in spite of the gallant fight by the Medical Director he is grossly handicapped inasmuch as he can only admit either moribund or very early cases into the sanatorium there?
    Mr. Creech Jones: We will (pay attention to this problem, but there has been quite a considerable recovery in the last year.
    Following is the reply:
    The average number of deaths from pulmonary tuberculosis in the years 1939 to 1941 was 1,714. The figure for 1944 was 3,324 and for 1945 it was 2,764. I am glad to say that it fell to 1,468 in 1947. There are no reliable figures for tuberculosis meningitis but the great increase in deaths from infantile convulsions during the war is probably due in part to increased mortality from that disease. Four thousand, five hundred and seventy deaths from infantile convulsions were recorded in 1944 compared with an average of 1,793 per year before the war. Since the war there has been a great improvement and the 1947 figure was well below the prewar average.

    Wage Rates
    Dr. Haden Guestasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the present rates of wages in Singapore for the following classes of workers: civilian labourers and labourers employed by Government Departments, including Navy, Army and Air Force, respectively; and how these rates compare with those prevailing in December, 1947.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am obtaining the required information regarding civilian labourers and labourers employed by the Civil Government from the Governor of Singapore. As to labourers employed by the Navy, Army and Air Force I would refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friends who are responsible for those Service Departments. I will write to the hon. Member later.
    Dr. Guest: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether there is any truth in the statement which appeared in the Press recently that labourers in Singapore have been getting as much as £4 per day?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I think that is very unlikely.

    Cost of Living
    Dr. Guestasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how the cost of living in Singapore now compares with the cost in December, 1947; and the cost of rice at the latest available date.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I have asked the Governor of Singapore for this information and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as I have his reply.
    Dr. Guest: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the cost of living in Singapore has risen during the last 12 months?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I should require notice of that question.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: As regards the cost of rice, will the right hon. Gentleman get the two prices—the official price and the open market price—both of which are used by the Government and everybody else?
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does not the Colonial Secretary get this information sent over every so often so that he is kept up to date with what is going on? Why will he have to telegraph?

  SIERRA LEONE (MINING CONCESSION)
  Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action has been taken in Sierra Leone to carry out the principles enunciated in the memorandum on Colonial Mining Policy of 1946; and on what terms a concession has
  1336
  recently been granted to Messrs. Hopkin and Williams (Travancore), Ltd.
  Mr. Creech Jones: The principles have been accepted and are being adopted in the grant of new concessions. Messrs. Hopkin and Williams, Ltd. have been granted an exclusive prospecting licence for two years in respect of titanium ores and iron ores in the Colony peninsula of Sierra Leone.
  Mr. Skinnard: Is there a concession in the agreement for the working of such ores, and if so, for what time?
  Mr. Creech Jones: This is a prospecting licence. I have not the exact terms of it, but it will last for about a couple of years.
  Mr. Skinnard: Would my right hon. Friend look into it and, if possible, let me have the conditions of the concession in that respect?

  WEST INDIES

    Jamaica (Passports)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether he is aware that United States citizens are permitted to enter Jamaica on a visit without a passport; and whether British subjects are granted the same permission.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir.

    Unemployed
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what accommodation he has been able to arrange for the 400 unemployed West Indians who were due to arrive at Southamption on 22nd June.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Considerable efforts were made by a number of Government Departments to provide adequate and suitable accommodation for the men arriving. Some 240 of them were given assistance to travel to places to which they wished to go, having made their own arrangements. Of the rest, about 25 men who have volunteered for the Army and Air Force have been accommodated at the Colonial Office Servicemen's Club at 77, Wimpole Street; and the remainder, approximately 200 men, have been put up and are being looked after for the time being at the War Department's deep shelter at Clapham South, pending dispersal to employment.
    Mr. Driberg: Would my right hon. Friend convey to his Welfare Department, and particularly to the officer who was on board the ship, some appreciation of the very sensible and imaginative way in which they have handled this problem?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir. They have done a very good job.
    Mr. John Lewis: In view of the fact that the Colonial Office Welfare Club in Wimpole Street is shortly to close down—according to information received by the people running the club from the Minister's Welfare Department—will the Minister say what steps are being taken to find alternative accommodation for these people?
    Mr. Creech Jones: We have reached a decision with the owners of the property that we can occupy it for a period longer.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: While the people of South London will make these men in the underground shelter as welcome as possible whilst they are there, will the Minister nevertheless make very early efforts to get them fixed up in more suitable accommodation?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Certainly.

    Customs Union
    Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made up to date towards establishing a customs union in the West Indian Colonies.
    Mr. Creech Jones: As all the Legislatures concerned have agreed to participate, I am now arranging to appoint a Commission to investigate this question.
    Mr. Reid: Will the Minister expedite the connected matter of federation of the West Indies so that these Colonies may take responsibility for their own welfare?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, certainly. Sir Hubert Rance is now in the West Indies carrying on this work.
    Mr. Crawley: Will this Commission work under Sir Hubert Rance and his organisation?
    Mr. Creech Jones: It will work in conjunction with it.

  EAST AFRICA

    Mombasa-Nairobi Railway
    Brigadier Prior-Palmerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what immediate steps are being taken to increase the carrying capacity of the railway from Mombasa to Nairobi.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Eighteen locomotives and 475 wagons have been ordered in this country. Increased carrying capacity on the section of the railway between Mombasa and Nairobi depends upon the supply of this additional equipment.
    Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Whilst I fully realise the implications of the Minister's reply, is it not also a fact that there is a lack of adequate crossing places on this single line and that at present only six trains a day can leave Mombasa? Will the Minister consider the allocation of a small quantity of steel in order to make more crossing places on this line?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, that point is under consideration. We are, of course, trying to get more steel from the general supply available in this country.
    Sir Wavell Wakefield: Can the Colonial Secretary say when the locomotives and wagons will be delivered?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The 18 locomotives are in course of production.
    Sir W. Wakefield: When will they be delivered?
    Mr. Creech Jones: We will apply all possible pressure to get them delivered as soon as they are made.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Can we understand clearly that the interests of this railway will not be sacrificed in favour of the groundnuts scheme?

  EDUCATION (ASSISTED PASSAGES)
  Brigadier Prior-Palmerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider the institution of assisted passages to this country for the purpose of education for children of Government officials and settlers in East

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  Africa in order to ease the heavy burden being borne by them at present in this respect?
  Mr. Creech Jones: This is a matter primarily for the local Governments, with whom I am in communication. I will write to the hon. and gallant Member as soon as I have received their replies.

  WEST AFRICA

    Local Government
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the total number of Africans serving on the main legislative and administrative bodies in West Africa; how many of these are women; and how many legislative or administrative members are, respectively, official and nonofficial, nominated and elected.

    —

    Executive Council.

    Legislative Council.

    NIGERIA:

    Elected

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    4

    Appointed by Governor

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2

    3

    Appointed by Northern House of Chiefs

    …

    …

    …

    4

    Appointed by Regional House of Assembly

    …

    …

    14

    TOTAL

    …

    …

    2

    25

    GOLD COAST:

    Appointed by Governor

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    3

    3

    Elected by Municipalities

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    5

    Elected by Joint Provincial Council of Chiefs

    …

    …

    9

    Elected by Ashanti Confederacy Council

    …

    …

    …

    4

    TOTAL

    …

    …

    3

    21

    SIERRA LEONE:

    Elected

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    3

    Appointed by Governor

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2

    5

    TOTAL

    …

    …

    2

    8

    GAMBIA:

    Elected

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1

    Appointed by Governor

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2

    4

    TOTAL

    …

    …

    2

    5

    All these members are non-official, and none of them are women.

    Food (Calorific Value)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give any reliable statistics or estimate respecting the calorific value of food consumed by the average rural and urban
    Mr. Creech Jones: With my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate a detailed answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have assumed that the Question refers to the Executive and Legislative Councils of the four territories, but if my hon. Friend has any other bodies in mind I will obtain the information for him.
    Mr. A. Edward Davies: Would the Secretary of State say whether it is the practice of his Department, or whoever is responsible, to consult the trade unions or other representative organisations of the natives in the territories concerned when nominations are considered?
    Mr. Creech Jones: It is the practice of the Governors, in the case of nominated members of these bodies, to consult all organised sections of African opinion.
    Following is the detailed answer:
    male, female and child inhabitant, respectively, in any of the West African Colonies.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Before any reliable estimate can be made dietary surveys must be carried out, and the nutritional

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    values of many African foods must be further investigated. There are, in addition, wide variations in the food intake, not only in different areas, but at different seasons of the year. Work is at present in progress in the Gambia on the collection of data covering a one-year period with the object of providing more accurate knowledge on this subject.
    Mr. Sorensen: Can the Secretary of State say when the information will be available because, in its absence, it is difficult to determine whether or not Africans are getting healthier.
    Mr. Creech Jones: A very considerable amount of information has been collected over a period of years on the subject of nutrition. The working committee in Gambia have been operating there for nearly a year and we hope before long to know the results of their first experiments.

  GOLD COAST (DISTURBANCES, REPORT)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now state when the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Gold Coast Disturbances is likely to be published.
  Mr. Creech Jones: The Report is being printed and will probably be ready for simultaneous publication here and in the Gold Coast at the end of July.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is it not regrettable that the Report of this important Commission is not likely to be available before the Sittings of the House are suspended, and will not the Minister take steps to expedite its issue so that we may discuss it before the end of the Session?
  Mr. Creech Jones: It has been expedited. I think the House will appreciate that the Commission has done its work with remarkable rapidity, but that the Report has to be published both here and in the Colony at the same time.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is it not regrettable that the publication of the Report should coincide with the end of the present Session, and would it not be far better to get it published a couple of weeks earlier?

  CYPRUS (BROADCASTS)
  Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies since when the Near East Arabic Broadcasting Service has been operating from Cyprus; by whom it is operated; what fees are paid; and what steps are taken to ensure that no broadcasts are made conflicting with British policy.
  Mr. Creech Jones: The station has been operating from Cyprus since March. I understand that it is operated by a group of Arabs and of British persons interested in Arab affairs. I have no information as to the fees paid. The Government of Cyprus does not in general censor broadcasts; but, in view of the broadcast to which the hon. Member drew attention last week, the Governor has already requested the Management to ensure that future broadcasts of that nature are avoided.
  Mr. Piratin: In the light of the Minister's reply, may I express my thanks for the action taken?
  Mr. Janner: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the type of propaganda issued from this broadcasting station, he will see that no further permission is granted for such broadcasts?

  ROYAL NAVY

    Service Engagements (Transfers)
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether in examining applications for transfers from continuous service engagements to special service engagements, he will give consideration not only to compassionate cases but to cases where it can be shown that the applicant, through no fault of his own, genuinely believed that he would be able to purchase his discharge at the end of hostilities.
    The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. John Dugdale): As I informed the House in reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, North (Major Bruce) on 17th March last, the scheme which allowed men who entered the Royal Navy on continuous service engagements early in

    1343
    the war to transfer to special service engagements is now closed. This scheme was limited to those cases in which there were compassionate circumstances because any extension beyond that would have resulted in too great a loss of men serving on regular engagements. When the regular strength of the Royal Navy allows discharges by purchase, or otherwise, on a less restricted basis than at present, applications from those men to whom the hon. Member refers will be given sympathetic consideration.
    Mr. Fletcher: May I ask, first, that not only sympathetic consideration, but priority over others, will be given; secondly, does not the Minister think that the very real sense of injustice and grievance of these men, who enlisted at the beginning of the war and were given a definite undertaking which has not now been carried out, should be redressed?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. I cannot guarantee to give definite priority, although I will give sympathetic consideration. Secondly, I cannot agree that there should be a real sense of injustice. I would remind hon. Members that, as a result of the scheme to which I have referred, there have been 667 applications; 569 have been approved and the men have been released.
    Commander Noble: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether special consideration was given to those who entered the Royal Navy as boys at the beginning of the war, when there was no other method of entry?
    Mr. Dugdale: That is another problem, which shows how complicated is the whole matter.

    Pier, Lamlash
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what financial settlement has been made in respect of the pier at Lamlash, Arran.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): In July, 1946, a settlement was made with the owners of the Pier, the Arran Estate Trustees, under which a lump sum was paid in full and final settlement of all Government use of, and damage to Lamlash Pier during the war and up to 31st May, 1946.
    Mr. Hughes: Can the Minister tell us how much was the lump sum and whether there was any condition of payment that it should be spent on repairing the pier, which has not been repaired?
    Mr. Gallacher: While the Minister is answering that question, will he say how much the Duke of Montrose got out of the deal?
    Mr. Edwards: I do not know anything about the Duke of Montrose. I am informed that the settlement was made with the Arran Estate Trustees and accepted in full and final settlement of all Government dues up to 31st May, 1946. We have received no further representations from them. We have, in fact, spent £293 on repairing damage there.
    Mr. Rankin: Cannot my hon. Friend do anything to get the pier brought into use again, because its continued closure operates very harshly on traders in the Lamlash area?
    Mr. Edwards: We have no control whatever over this pier. It was handed back in 1946 and the onus of getting it back into use lies with its owners.

    Bases, Singapore
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what expenditure has been incurred on the naval bases at Singapore since the war; and what further expenditure is to be incurred.
    Mr. W. Edwards: I presume that the Question refers to capital expenditure. The total of such expenditure incurred since the occupation of the base after the war amounts to about £1,600,000, including that on rehabilitation. As regards the second part of the Question, I cannot, of course, anticipate future policy, but further expenditure on capital services already approved will amount to about £800,000 including rehabilitation.
    Mr. Hughes: Is this £1,600,000 spent since the war in addition to the £26 million which the "Daily Telegraph" estimate says was spent in the war; and is the statement true that up to the present 10,000 people have been working daily at Singapore and that the local naval authorities say that it is an absurdity?
    Mr. Edwards: The Question asked the amount of money spent since the war. Quite obviously that excludes any amount spent before or during the war. In regard to the number of people employed there I can assure my hon. Friend that there has been no statement by the naval authorities that the number of people employed are far more than there should be.
    Mr. J. P. L. Thomas: May I ask that no considerations of economy will prevent the full re-equipment of this base both as regards defence and dockyard facilities; and further whether the transference of the headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief from Hong Kong to Singapore will not in any way lessen the strength and effectiveness of Hong Kong itself?
    Mr. Edwards: The second part of the supplementary question does not come within this Question. In regard to the first part, the Admiralty naturally have in mind the valuable position of Singapore and quite obviously, within financial limitations, they will do everything to see that it is kept in a proper state.
    Mr. Scollan: In view of the ineffectiveness of the £26 million—
    Hon. Members: Speak up.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Address the audience.
    Mr. Scollan: I am addressing the Chair. In view of the ineffectiveness of the £26 million previously spent and of the fact that military and naval experts have all proved wrong in their prognostications, is it now proposed to proceed to pour several more millions down the drain to give us another white elephant in Singapore such as the last?
    Sir Ronald Ross: Is the amount that the Civil Lord has mentioned the minimum amount required to bring this base into effective use and to rehabilitate it after the damage suffered during the war?
    Mr. Edwards: It does not necessarily follow that the figures I have given represent the minimum amount, but that is what we have spent after the war in capital purposes up to the present.
    Mr. Donner: Have the deficiencies revealed during the war as regards attack from the land to the north been remedied?
    Mr. Edwards: The hon. Gentleman can certainly take it that any lessons we learned as a result of war action are being very carefully taken into account at the moment.

    Greenwich Hospital (Land)
    Brigadier Thorpasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many acres of-land are owned by Greenwich Hospital in the constituency of Berwick-on-Tweed; what is the total capital value of this land; and how much has been spent since June, 1945, in improvement of the land, houses and buildings.
    Mr. Dugdale: Greenwich Hospital land in the constituency of Berwick-on-Tweed amounts to 7,741 acres at an estimated Capital value of £201,000. The sum expended on improvements on land, houses and buildings from June, 1945, to date is £4,173. This does not include the normal expenditure on repairs and maintenance.

    Sea Cadet Units
    Commander Purseyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the total number of Sea Cadet Units; the total strength in officers and ratings; the total annual cost; the number of units, strength and cost of those run by the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Navy League and otherwise, respectively; and the amount of money paid to the Navy League for Sea Cadet Units during the financial year 1947–48.
    Mr. Dugdale: As the answer to this Question contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    There are at present 431 Sea Cadet Units, the total strength of which, based on the latest information available, is 2,111 officers and 29,108 cadets. The provision for grants for the current financial year as shown under Vote 7 of the Navy Estimates is £78,000.
    Of the 431 units, 406 comprising 30,120 officers and cadets, are open units and 25, comprising 1,099 officers and cadets are closed units. The closed units are administered direct by the Admiralty, but

    1347
    League and administered by the Sea Cadet the open units are affiliated to the Navy Council on behalf of the Admiralty and the Navy League. Payments for these units are not made through the Navy League, but through the Sea Cadet Council, or direct to the unit. Payments made to the Sea Cadet Council in 1947–48 amounted approximately to £46,000.
    There are also 11 cadet units run by various Royal Naval and Royal Marine establishments with an approximate total strength of 1,020 cadets. These are not regarded as part of the Sea Cadet Corps. Their annual direct cost to Navy Votes in 1947–48 was approximately £45.

    New Tonnage
    Commander Purseyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the amount of new naval tonnage, and the number of warships in the major classes, likely to be completed this year.
    Mr. Dugdale: Such particulars of His Majesty's ships under construction as can be disclosed are given on pages 228–231 of the current Navy Estimates. Parliament and the Press are informed on each occasion when a new ship in the major classes is launched and when she commissions.
    Commander Noble: Are there any alterations in the pages which the hon. Gentleman has quoted?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir.
    Sir R. Ross: As regards the pages indicated by hon. Gentleman, and as regards ships which will not be completed according to Admiralty plans, is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that when a ship like the aircraft carrier "Powerful" is left in an incomplete state and nothing is done for months and years it deteriorates very much, whereas it ought to be completed in a reasonable time?
    Mr. Dugdale: Naturally we bear that in mind with other considerations.

    Ships (Transfers to Foreign Governments)
    Mr. J. P. L. Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state the policy of the Admiralty in respect of the disposal of His Majesty's ships to foreign countries.
    Mr. Dugdale: Only those ships which are surplus to the requirements of the Royal Navy are transferred to foreign Governments. The principles observed in such transfers are:

    Firstly: the fulfilment of the strategic interests of the United Kingdom by assisting in the reconstruction of the navies of former allies and other friendly Powers.

    Secondly: the strengthening of the close relations between the R.N. and these Navies, which grew up to their mutual advantage during the war.

    Mr. Thomas: Are the Admiralty aware of the strength of feeling in this country against the sale of His Majesty's ships to countries still occupying British territory in the Antarctic, and especially against the possible sale of H.M.S. "Ajax" to the Chilean Government? In addition, has the hon. Gentleman any statement to make about the later stages of negotiations in regard to that ship?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir; that is another question. If there is any strong feeling, I have no doubt that it can be conveyed to my right hon. Friend, and no doubt he will take it into account.
    Mr. Donner: In reference to the original reply, and to the sale of ships no longer required, has the estimates requirement of the minimum cruiser strength of the Navy been lowered below 50?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Will my hon. Friend not add, to complete his statement of policy, that the requirements of the Navy are now defined in Washington, and no longer in London?
    Mr. Speaker: These constant and rather insulting references to a friendly Power do deserve reproof.
    Hon. Members: Withdraw.
    Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order—
    Mr. Speaker: On a point of Order, very well.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: May I not rise on a point of Order, first?
    Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member wishes to put a point of Order first, he may do so.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Perhaps my voice was not so loud as it should have been, but I did mean to make a point of Order. Is it not open to me continually and, if I think right, at all times, to draw the attention of the House to the fact that in my view certain right hon. Members are taking steps in relation to the United States of America that virtually amount to the betrayal of our country to certain powerful interests in that country? If I hold that view, may I not press that point, in season, and out of season?
    Mr. Speaker: Not at Question Time. There is a rule that insinuations and imputations should not be made, either in Questions at the Table, or in supple-mentaries, and I reproved the hon. Member because I thought his constant references to America were imputations and insinuations of an unfriendly character. That is my Ruling.
    Mr. Gallacher: On a further point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that you have given that Ruling, will you give a similar Ruling when not only innuendoes, but open slanders are made against a friendly Power, the Soviet Union?
    Mr. Speaker: I am very careful about what I hear, but these things are not always said in the same way.
    Sir R. Ross: Will the Parliamentary Secretary add to the other conditions which he has mentioned the condition that he will not transfer warships of the British Navy to any country which is attempting to annex British territory?
    Mr. Dugdale: It is obvious that if any country is acting against the British Empire we shall not transfer ships to that country.
    Mr. Thomas: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, especially in regard to H.M.S. "Ajax,"I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the earliest possible occasion.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING TONNAGE
  Commander Purseyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the amount of new merchant shipping tonnage completed in the British Isles in 1938 and 1947, respectively; and the amount likely to be completed this year.
  Mr. W. Edwards: Completions of new merchant shipping in the British Isles in 1938 and 1947 totalled 862,667 and 948,847 gross tons respectively. Completions in 1948 are expected to total rather more than 1,000,000 gross tons.
  Mr. J. P. L. Thomas: What proportion of this tonnage is being built in naval dockyards?
  Mr. Edwards: A very small proportion indeed. If not 100 per cent., 99.9 per cent. is being built in private yards.
  Mr. Rankin: What relation do the figures which my hon. Friend has just given bear to the capacity of the shipbuilding yards?
  Mr. Edwards: I think that is another question altogether, but the figure I have given of the estimated tonnage this year is somewhat below the capacity of the yards.
  Captain Marsden: Can the hon. Gentleman say how much of this tonnage is to go abroad to hoist foreign flags?
  Mr. Edwards: Not without notice.

  POST OFFICE

    Air Mails, Africa
    Mr. Digbyasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the irregularities and delay in the air mail service to East and Central Africa; and what planes are being used to carry this mail.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Wilfred Paling): I am not aware of any serious irregularity or delay on these services, but if the hon. Member will let me have particulars I will gladly have inquiry made. The mails are conveyed by the scheduled services of B.O.A.C. and South African Airways, and for destinations off the trunk routes by local air services.
    Mr. Digby: Is the Postmaster-General aware that it often takes about a month for an air mail letter to be delivered, which is about the same time as it takes to send a letter by sea, and that it makes the extra charge appear quite ridiculous?
    Mr. Paling: I am not aware of that but if the hon. Member has any information on the matter I shall be glad to have it.

    Newspaper Deliveries, Berlin
    Mr. Keelingasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that copies of "The Times," "News Chronicle" and "Church Times" regularly posted during the last five months to Germans in the American sector of Berlin have not been delivered; what is the reason; and what action he is taking to deliver these mails.
    Mr. Wilfred Paling: In accordance with a decision of the United States authorities of the Control Commission, printed papers may not be sent to addresses in the American sector of Berlin; and newpapers posted in error would be withheld from despatch and treated as undeliverable.
    Mr. Keeling: Is there any connection between that ruling and the fact that the sorting office for the whole of Berlin is in the Russian sector? Should not some alternative means of delivering mails from England be devised?
    Mr. Gallacher: What about the "Daily Worker"?

  ARMED FORCES (NATIONAL INSURANCE SCHEME)
  Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Defence whether he now has any statement to make on the contributions of members of the Services and their wives under the National Insurance Scheme.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): My right hon. Friend the

  —

  Employer's share.

  Employee's share.

  Deduction from pay.

  Balance charged to Service Votes.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  Men

  …

  …

  …

  2

  10

  3

  7

  2

  6

  1

  1

  Women

  …

  …

  …

  2

  1

  2

  9

  1

  9

  1

  0

  Boys

  …

  …

  …

  1

  8

  2

  0

  1

  6

  6

  Girls

  …

  …

  …

  1

  3

  1

  7

  1

  0

  7

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Bread Rationing (Manual Workers)
    Mr. Donnerasked the Minister of Food whether it is necessary to proceed with the arrangements, laid down in a letter to the British Employers' Confederation, dated 24th May, for the distribution of the extra bread unit coupons
    Minister of National Insurance proposes to submit to the National Insurance Advisory Committee the necessary preliminary draft Regulations under Section 57 of the National Insurance Act. The weekly rates for men in the Services will be: employer's share 2s. 10d.; employee's share 3s. 7d, of which, in present circumstances, 2s. 6d. will be deducted from the man's pay, the balance being borne on the Service Votes. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the correspondng rates for women, boys and girls.
    Commander Noble: Will the Minister confirm that this will not in any way affect the present pensions schemes in force for men of the Forces?
    Mr. Alexander: Not so far as I am aware, for personnel now serving, but I will look at that point carefully.
    Mr. Symonds: Was this compulsory payment allowed for when the new pay codes were drawn up?
    Mr. Alexander: I think that all the current circumstances were then taken into account.
    Mr. Vane: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether these rates apply to Territorials and members of other volunteer Forces doing full-time service in camp, etc.?
    Mr. Alexander: This applies to Service personnel embodied in the Services. Territorials are dealt with separately.
    Details are as follow:
    to manual workers in the new rationing year commencing on 18th July; or whether, in view of the heavy additional work on the staffs of employers, these arrangements can now be dispensed with.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): I am afraid that it will be necessary to proceed with the arrangements to which the hon. Member refers.
    Mr. Donner: Is the Minister aware that the continuation of bread rationing without any evidence in support of the assertion that it is still necessary, involves the misemployment of thousands of people?
    Mr. Strachey: The hon. Member can rest assured that it will be abolished at the earliest moment at which it is possible to do so.

    Canned Beef (Eire)
    Major Legge - Bourkeasked the Minister of Food why he rejected a recent offer of canned beef from Eire, which was later sold elsewhere at a higher price; and why he then asked the Eire Government for a supply of canned horse-meat.
    Captain John Crowderasked the Minister of Food why he refused to buy canned beef from Eire when he was offered it last March; and why he then asked for an unlimited supply of canned horse-meat.
    Mr. Strachey: I would refer the hon. and gallant Members to the answers given to the Questions by the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Sir J. Lucas) on 21st June. We have made no request to the Eire Government for canned horsemeat.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Arising out of the two replies to which the Minister referred, will he say, first, why the imported beef from Eire was unsuitable for putting on the ration or for manufacturing sausage meat? Will he further give an assurance that no horsemeat is being imported from anywhere, Eire included?
    Mr. Strachey: The answer to the first part of the supplementary question is that it was canned or tinned meat, and therefore could not be suitable for sausages or for the ration. In answer to the second part of the question, what happened was that we were approached by an Eire firm whether we would be interested in the import of horsemeat. We referred the matter to the Eire Government and were told that they were not licensing this export. I can give an assurance that there is no import of horsemeat from any other country either.
    Colonel Gomme - Duncan: Does the Minister's answer mean that canned meat, including bully-beef, will never be on the ration again?
    Mr. Strachey: No, that is on the ration. This was Irish tinned meat which would have been put on points. We prefer to have Irish meat in the form of carcass meat, if that is possible.
    Mr. J. S. C. Reid: In view of the fact that we are taking 10,000 tons of tinned Irish meat under the new Eire Agreement, and that only 10,000 tons was previously offered according to the hon. Lady's answer, why did we refuse part of that 10,000 tons, seeing that it went to Czechoslovakia?
    Mr. Strachey: The issue was one of price, which I should have thought was understandable. Under the new agreement we have been able, I am very glad to say, to come to terms with the Eire Government on this and several other matters.
    Mr. Reid: Does the Minister mean that the price asked for the consignment in March by the Eire Government was excessive?
    Mr. Strachey: Two parties to a deal may each have a perfectly legitimate view on the subject of price and those views may differ.
    Mr. Reid: What was the price?
    Mr. Turton: Will the Minister explain for what purpose he referred the question of the importation of canned horsemeat to the Irish Government?
    Mr. Strachey: We received this inquiry from an Irish firm and we wished to have the views of the Irish Government on the subject.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Arising out of the last answer which the Minister gave to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid), may I ask the Minister whether he realises that Mr. Dillon himself, on the Thursday before he came over to this country for the recent Trade Agreement, said that the price originally quoted for the tinned beef offered by Eire to this country was lower than that at which he eventually sold it? Why did the Minister turn it down?
    Mr. Strachey: That is quite possible. The price that is being given on the Continent today for a good many Eire products is higher than the price we can bid.

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    It is to meet that situation that the recent Agreement has been made.
    Mr. Reid: Does that mean that we are less well off now than Czechoslovakia, and is that the result of Socialist policy?
    Mr. Strachey: If that were so, it would be the result of Socialism in both places.

    Fruit and Vegetables
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Food what steps he is taking to encourage the utilisation of converted imported fruit containers for the conveyance of homegrown horticultural produce.
    Mr. Strachey: The Fruit and Vegetables Organisation, representing the Agricultural Departments and my own Department, is now carrying out trials to test the cost of re-making imported fruit boxes into containers for home-grown fruit and vegetables. The success of these trials will largely depend upon the co-operation of retailers, and I am glad to note that this proposal is receiving the wholehearted support of the trade associations.
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Minister of Food what percentage of the fruit and vegetable canning programme submitted to him by canners has been approved by his Ministry; and what steps he is taking to ensure adequate supplies of tinplate to enable the maximum amount of home grown strawberries to be canned.
    Mr. Strachey: For fruit about 58 per cent. and for vegetables about 77½ per cent. There will be sufficient tinplate to can all the strawberries we are able to spare for canning.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that tinplate is being exported and that it will come back into this country containing various products of a quality lower than that which could be produced at home? Does not he realise that the strawberry crop this year is far greater than it has been for about 10 years and that his Ministry's explanation of the reason why this tinplate is being refused is because the fresh fruit market can absorb the crop? [Interruption.] Does he realise that those areas producing this fruit which are some distance from dense populations will suffer very greatly—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: I have asked that supplementary questions should be short and snappy.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Would the Minister consider trying to allow canners to can a good deal of the present strawberry crop, rather than force it on to the fresh fruit market? It will be wasted otherwise.
    Mr. Strachey: I am sympathetic with the questioner's objective, but the canning programme for strawberries this year is more than double that of last year.
    Major Legge-Bourke: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Minister of Food if he is aware of the concern with which growers view the possibility of unlimited imports of fruit and vegetables; and if he will make a statement of His Majesty's Government's policy in respect of home production and its protection.
    Mr. Strachey: Our imports of fruit and vegetables are limited to what we can afford to buy and they are likely unfortunately, to be so limited in the foreseeable future. Such imports provide a most valuable and necessary supplement to our diet.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the present moment the Ministry of Agriculture is asking growers to produce 30,000 acres more soft fruit, 10,000 acres more dessert apples, and 5,000 acres more pears? Does he realise that this is asking home growers to commit commercial suicide, unless he gives some assurance to prevent dumping from abroad?
    Mr. Strachey: I believe there will be plenty of markets in this country for both products.
    Mr. Price-Whiteasked the Minister of Food if he is now in a position to institute a regulation whereby all licences issued to wholesalers in the fruit and greengrocery trade should be conditional upon weight tickets accompanying all deliveries to retailers.
    Mr. Strachey: The Fresh Fruit and Vegetables (Restriction of Dealings) Order, 1945, already requires anyone selling fresh fruit and vegetables otherwise than by retail to furnish to the buyer within seven days an invoice showing the quantity of each kind of produce sold. The possibility of further measures is under consideration.
    Mr. Price-White: Would the Minister say what is the use of an invoice delivered seven days later in respect of a delivery which is short weight, for various reasons, seven days before?
    Mr. Strachey: This is partly a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade under the Weights and Measures Act. We are in consultation with the Board of Trade, and are looking at the problem.
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Food what quantity of Canary tomatoes has been imported during the last four months; whether he is aware that a proportion of tomatoes so imported are of such inferior quality as not to be fit for sale to the public; and what action he is taking.
    Mr. Strachey: Some 47,000 tons, I believe: all through the normal commercial channels. The question of quality is one for these traders, who, I may say, have been able to sell almost all the fruit.
    Mr. Turton: Is the Minister aware that tomatoes are arriving in my constituency in a condition such as those in this container? If he looks at them, will he reconsider the second part of his reply? Is he aware that only 2 lb. out of the whole "boat" were saleable?
    Mr. Strachey: The hon. Member is obviously advocating the reimposition of most stringent controls on private enterprise. I do not know whether it is justified or not.
    Mr. Piratin: On a point of Order. Is it permissible for the hon. Gentleman opposite to act as a barrow boy and display his goods in this House?

    Groundnuts Scheme
    Mr. Digbyasked the Minister of Food whether he is now in a position to give the average yield per acre for the
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    7,500 odd acres recently planted with groundnuts at Kongwa, Tanganyika.
    Mr. Strachey: Harvesting is still going on in East Africa so no figures of average yield are available. In any case, the 7,500 acres planted last crop year were used for experiments of all kinds with different varieties on varying soils with varying types and quantities of fertilisers. Hence an average yield figure would have little meaning.
    Mr. Digby: Is it not true that only three types of vine were actually used for the main area?
    Mr. Strachey: Oh, no; a very considerable number of different types were used.
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Food what amount of oil will be available from groundnut cultivation in Africa; for what purposes it will be suitable; and what will be the price to the public.
    Mr. Strachey: We expect to get about 137,000 tons of oil from all the 1947–48 African groundnut crops. It will be used to make margarine and cooking fats. Their prices are 5d. or 9d. per lb. for margarine, according to quality, and 1s. a pound for cooking fat.
    Mr. Freeman: Could the Minister say what proportion of the nuts is being imported as oil, what proportion as nuts and what proportion for the purposes of margarine? How does the oil compare with olive oil in its use and purpose?
    Mr. Strachey: Virtually the whole of this will be imported as oil, and used as oil.
    Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Is it not a fact that practically the whole of the present crop which is now growing is to be used for seed for the forthcoming crop, and will not be utilised for the production of oil?
    Mr. Strachey: The Question refers to the African crop and not the East African crop. This is the whole of the African crop, the great majority of which comes from West Africa and Nigeria.
    Mr. Drayson: Can the Minister say whether the figures he mentioned are greater or less than for the previous year?
    Mr. Strachey: Not accurately without notice, but I think they are a little greater.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Are the prices based on cost of production or on what other basis?
    Mr. Strachey: I could not answer that without notice.
    Mr. Baldwin: Can the Minister say what proportion of this production is from the Colonial Production Corporation and how much from other production?
    Mr. Strachey: There is no such body as the Colonial Production Corporation. There is the Colonial Development Corporation, but that has not started operations of any kind to my knowledge.

    Special Cheese Ration (Agricultural Workers)
    Mr. J. H. Hareasked the Minister of Food whether self employed agricultural workers who, under the new National Insurance Scheme will have unemployment cards stamped "Agricultural," will qualify for the extra cheese ration.
    Mr. Strachey: When the new National Insurance Scheme comes into force anyone employed in agriculture under contract of service will in future be able to get the special cheese ration. I am sorry, but I still cannot extend the concession to self-employed workers.
    Mr. Hare: Does not this, in fact, mean that the sons, nephews and brothers of the owners of small farms who work for the owners on a contract of service will now get this extra cheese ration? If that is so, would the Minister do all he can to make that fact public, because this concession has been requested for many months past, and the majority of these people do not know that they will benefit on 5th July.
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, this is a considerable concession. I think the only possible dividing line to take is this of contract of service. I think the answer should serve to make that public.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: What is the objection to self-employed persons being included in this arrangement? Is it an administrative difficulty, and if so, what?
    Mr. Strachey: There is an administrative difficulty. Also self-employed people usually have better access to extra food than those employed on a contract of service.

    Rice (Imports)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Food whether he will make arrangements to import supplies of unpolished rice, in view of its economy and greater nutritive value.
    Mr. Strachey: The quantity of rice we expect to be able to distribute in the United Kingdom this year is, unfortunately, small and can make no significant difference to the nutritional value of the national diet. I am not, therefore, prepared to impose the disadvantages which would be involved in retailing under-milled rice.
    Mr. Freeman: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that unpolished rice compares with wholemeal flour and, in view of the fact that many people would prefer it in that state, would he arrange for some to be imported?
    Mr. Strachey: As and when rice becomes available to this country in any large quantity, we will consider that.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Would the Minister make quite certain that no rice is imported into this country while there is such a great scarcity in Malaya?
    Mr. Strachey: As has already been announced to the House, a very small quantity of rice is coming to this country. The Malayan situation is improving considerably and it is actually by the desire of the Burma exporters that we are to receive a small quantity here.

  INDIA AND HYDERABAD
  Mr. Churchill(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have considered or will consider offering their services as mediator between India and Hyderabad.
  The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): I have been asked to reply. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, a Standstill Agreement was concluded last November between the Government of India and the Government of His Exalted Highness the Nizam of Hyderabad. This Agreement regulates the relations between India and Hyderabad, and His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have no information that leads them to think that it

  1361
  has been brought to an end. It still remains our hope, therefore, that negotiations between India and Hyderabad will lead to a friendly settlement of outstanding differences. I do not think that the prospects of such a settlement would be improved by an offer to lend our good offices.
  Mr. Churchill: Does the Prime Minister remember the very precise pledges which he gave about this important State of 17 million or 18 million people, that they would have the right to choose whether they would accede to Pakistan or to Hindustan—or India—and that, if not, they could remain a separate Dominion of the Crown?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to comment on the authoritative statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made last July, but if he looks at it he will see that the essence of what the Prime Minister said was that when these States regain their independence they remain in part of geographical India. He said:
  "It would, I think, be unfortunate if, owing to the formal severance of their paramountcy relations with the Crown, they were to become islands cut off from the rest of India… It is the hope of His Majesty's Government that all states will, in due course, find their appropriate place within one or other of the new Dominions within the British Commonwealth, but until the constitutions of the Dominions have been framed in such a way as to include the States as willing partners, there must necessarily be a less organic form of relationship between them, and there must be a period before a comprehensive system can be worked out."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th July, 1947; Vol. 439, c. 2451–2.]
  Mr. Churchill: Is that not a very unrepresentative form of the precise pledges which were given to this House, that the State of Hyderabad and, I may add, the State of Kashmir, should have the right to choose which of the two Dominions in India they would accede to or, if not, to remain outside and separate?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I think that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that His Majesty's Government now have no jurisdiction in this matter. India and Hyderabad have got to live together and we hope that they will settle this matter together by peaceful means. We have no reason to believe that that is impossible.
  Mr. Churchill: I was not asking about jurisdiction. I was asking about obligations.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: We have no obligations at all in the matter. The right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong in thinking that. The question he put to me was whether we would offer our good offices. The purpose he has in mind is, of course, to get an agreed and peaceful settlement of the differences between India and Hyderabad. About that purpose the Government fully agree with him, but in our judgment it would not help to achieve it if we were now to make the offer which the right hon. Gentleman suggests.
  Major Guy Lloyd: Is it not a fact that for several weeks past the late Governor-General of India has been using the utmost of his good offices on his own behalf, and on behalf of the policy of His Majesty's Government, to bring about a happy settlement of this most difficult matter?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Perhaps the House will forgive me if I take this opportunity of saying that in my judgment the late Governor-General of India has rendered very great services both to the sub-Continent and to the world at large. But I must correct a misapprehension on the part of the hon. and gallant Member. The Governor-General did not act for His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. He acted for the Government of India, of which he was the constitutional head.

  LONDON DOCKS STRIKE
  Mr. Eden(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he has any further statement to make about the position in the strike at the London docks.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): As work had not been resumed in the London docks this morning and perishable food needed by the people was in danger of deterioration and waste, His Majesty's Government decided that they had no alternative in the public interest but to utilise Service personnel to safeguard the people's food supplies, particularly those of a perishable nature. The work has already started.
  In the meanwhile I am informed that in the Tooley Street Section, 2,500 men have gone back to work, and that smaller

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  numbers have also returned to work in six other docks.
  The main facts which have led up to the present situation may be known to the House, but I will recapitulate them. The agreed rules of the Port require that when any dispute arises as to the application of any of the piece work rates and conditions, work is to continue at piece work, or alternatively, at day work, pending adjustment on the question in dispute by the Joint Labour Board.
  In this case a dispute arose on the loading of 100 tons of zinc oxide. Eleven men on several occasions between 27th May and 8th June refused to complete the loading of this cargo. As provided in the Dock Labour Scheme, the matter was reported in writing to the local Board, who duly considered it and decided, in accordance with the disciplinary provisions, to impose a penalty of suspension for one week and disentitlement to attendance money for 13 weeks. The workers concerned felt aggrieved by these decisions and exercised their right of appeal, but, before their appeal could be heard, the strike commenced.
  The appeal tribunal, composed of equal numbers of both sides, met but failed to agree, and a further appeal tribunal was constituted with an independent chairman jointly selected. This tribunal, after full consideration of the circumstances, decided to retain suspension for seven days but to reduce the disentitlement to attendance money to the period of 30th May to 5th June and a further period of two weeks.
  There the matter stands and I think it is important that the House should be fully aware of the broad outlines of the Dock Labour Scheme and of the machinery under which these cases have been heard.
  The Dock Labour Scheme was made under the Dock Labour Regulation of Employment Act, 1946, which, as the House will remember, was designed to end the evil of casual employment in this important industry by giving every worker a guaranteed weekly wage. Before making the Scheme, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour was at pains to ensure that it represented the largest possible measure of agreement between the employers and workers in the industry. The
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  Scheme provides for a National Dock Labour Board on which there is equal representation of employers and workers, and in the ports the Scheme is managed locally by Local Boards consisting also of equal numbers of representatives of employers and workers in the port.
  The Scheme, of course, whilst bringing great benefits to the workers carries with it obligations and there are disciplinary provisions for dealing with cases of alleged failure to comply with the terms of the Scheme. The penalties that may be imposed by the Local Board are set out in the Scheme but against any penalty the worker has a right to appeal to an appeal tribunal, the members of which are appointed from persons nominated by the local representatives of employers and workers.
  As the House will thus see, the Scheme is essentially and designedly under the control of the employers and workers in the industry. The situation as the Government see it is that after the fullest possible consideration of the men's case, the properly constituted tribunal has come to its decision. If there is any feeling that this case has shown a need for examination of the disciplinary provisions of the Scheme, the remedy lies in the hands of the workers through their trade union representatives on the National Dock Labour Board. As I indicated in my statement yesterday, the trade union has decided to consult its members in London and other ports and later call a National Delegate Conference to consider the possible modification of the disciplinary clauses of the Scheme based on experience gained of the Scheme's working since its inception. There is thus ample opportunity for dealing with the present issue in a constitutional manner.
  Unless the members of trade unions use the machinery which has been set up with their agreement, the whole Scheme, which is of immense value to the worker, may be jeopardised. Further, the position won for the trade unions by so much sacrifice in the past is endangered by action of this kind.
  In the circumstances it is much to be regretted that the men have not as yet responded generally to the call to return to work. A hold up of the food supplies of London will inevitably cause hardship and grave inconvenience to millions of

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  householders; but this is by no means the end of the damage. The handling of the country's overseas trade normally stretches to the limit the capacity of our available shipping. A hold up of any length delays the turn-round of ships and cannot be made up subsequently. The stoppage cuts millions of dollars and other needed foreign currency off our earnings—and cuts them off finally. Already the prospect of attaining this month's export target is affected, the gap in the balance of our payments is widened and the pace of national recovery slowed down. I cannot believe that the general body of strikers have hitherto realised the true consequences of their action. They should return to work and allow any grievances they may feel to be dealt with by the proper machinery.
  Mr. Eden: Could the Prime Minister tell us anything about the food situation as it now stands?
  The Prime Minister: The perishable foods are being moved now. Should the stoppage continue, all arrangements have been made for moving other foods.
  Mr. Gammans: Could the Prime Minister say whether any food has actually gone bad or is in danger of going bad?
  The Prime Minister: I understand not.
  Mr. Gallacher: May I ask the Prime Minister if arrangements could not have been made, or could not yet be made, to withdraw the order suspending the men for a week with the disallowance of attendance money, pending the appeal to the tribunal? Everyone recognises that, when an appeal is put in, sentence is suspended, and, in this case, could it not have been possible to get this sentence suspended, pending the discussion by the tribunal and the decision of the tribunal
  1366
  whether the sentence was just or unjust for that type of offence?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has not followed my statement, or he would have seen that this matter came before the properly-constituted tribunal of representatives of both sides. They disagreed, and it subsequently came before another tribunal under an independent chairman, also agreed to by both sides, and a decision was taken. The matter has been dealt with entirely in accordance with the machinery set up. If there is any question of dealing with the disciplinary code, that again can be raised with the trade union representatives on the Board.
  Mr. Keeling: When the Prime Minister speaks of Service personnel does he mean soldiers, or are the other two Services involved?
  The Prime Minister: Any appropriate personnel of any of the three Services will be used.
  Mr. McAllister: Is the Prime Minister aware that the suspension of attendance money for weeks would have involved no financial hardship on the men in question provided that they had been willing to work during that time? May I ask if the Prime Minister is aware that his statement will give the utmost satisfaction to the responsible elements in the stevedores and dock labouring industry, and that there is a strong feeling among the dockers that there has been a lamentable failure by the Dock Labour Board to put over the case in the same clear fashion as the Prime Minister has done to-day?
  Mr. Eden: May I say this to the Prime Minister? We are very reluctant on this side of the House to seek any discussion of this matter which might result in exacerbating the situation further, but we reserve our right to refer to the matter later should the necessity arise.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL
  Order for Third Reading read.
  3.47 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  This Bill has had a very thorough consideration by the House, and it will, when enacted, effect many changes in the electoral system of the country. In the first place, it restores to the country the compilation of a register by canvass, but differing from the prewar compilation of a register by that means. It is not based on a qualifying period, but on the provision that a person shall be qualified in respect of his residence in a particular place on a qualifying date. There will be two registers a year instead of one, and the right to be registered will be extended by the Bill to Crown servants abroad and their wives residing abroad, and, in addition, to the troops or other members of the Forces residing abroad and to the wives of members who are so residing in order to be with their husbands. The last-mentioned provision has been advocated for some time in this House by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling), and I was very glad, during the later stages of the Bill's progress, between Commitee and Report, to be able to make this concession, which I know will give great satisfaction to a number of people, and particularly, to the wives of Service men who have gone abroad to be with their husbands.
  The Bill enacts that for the future the qualification shall be residence, and that only the residential qualification will be recognised. It abolishes plural voting, and ensures that both in Parliamentary and local government elections, there will be one vote only in respect of each person—one vote only, nationally, in Parliamentary elections, and one vote only for each local government unit in the country. That is to say, a person will be able to vote only once in respect of any county, borough, district or parish election. There is a considerable extension of the provision by which postal voting can take place. This will enable a great many people, who
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  in the past from one cause or another have been debarred from participating in elections, to take part in such elections. One of the provisions in the Bill which excited some comment during its passage through Committee is a new provision by which in the event of a tie at the count, the decision is to be made by lot and not by the casting vote of the returning officer. At the same time, this has enabled us to ensure that the returning officer shall have the first vote if he is an elector in the constituency.
  When we come to the provisions dealing with local government, one register will be provided in future as it has been during recent years. As a general rule, by Clause 24 the same polling facilities will be available for local government elections as for Parliamentary elections. In the past there has sometimes been confusion because the polling arrangements for these two types of elections have not been the same, and persons accustomed to going to one place for one type of election have sometimes been inconvenienced when they have found that they have had to poll elsewhere for the other type of election. Postal Voting is introduced for the first time at local government elections other than rural and parish council elections. For county borough and urban elections the postal voting facilities will be available on the same scale as for Parliamentary elections.
  In Part III of the Bill a new provision is made with regard to the scale of election expenses at Parliamentary elections. The Speaker's Conference recommended that it should be £450 plus 1½d. for each elector in a county constituency, or 1d. for each elector in a borough. During the Committee stage the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Grimston) asked whether the increase in the cost of the labour and materials likely to be employed at an election might not make those figures which had been put forward in 1944, out of date. I was reluctant to consider an increase in the cost of elections, but the agents of the four political parties—the Conservative, Liberal National, Liberal and Labour parties—met, and as a result of their joint and unanimous recommendation it was decided to make the figure 2d. for each elector in a county and 1½d. for each elector in a borough.
  The question of agency in local government elections has also received attention in the Bill. In future a candidate at a local government election, except a parish election, will be required

  1369
  either to appoint an election agent or himself to assume the responsibilities of an election agent. A limit to the expenses of local government elections is also imposed by the Bill. Hitherto in local government elections, only county council elections and borough council elections outside London have been conducted under a requirement that there shall be a limit on the candidate's expenses and a return made after the election has been decided. This Bill extends that requirement to all local government elections and imposes the limit that now exists for county council and borough council elections of £25 plus 2d. for each elector above the first 500.
  I recall being told as long ago as 1911 by an opponent of mine that an urban council election in those days had cost him £70; under this proposal his expenses would have been limited to £40 16s. 8d. with an electorate of 2,400 persons. It is high time that in some of these elections a limit was imposed. Further limitations are imposed on expenditure by unauthorised persons, but in other respects, some restrictions on expenditure which have become archaic have been repealed, and the payment of speakers at election meetings will be permitted, but any such payment will have to be shown under a separate heading in the return of election expenses.
  We make it the duty of the Director of Public Prosecutions to prosecute for election offences, and this is extended so as to require him to inquire and if necessary to prosecute wherever information is given to him that a corrupt or illegal practice has occurred at an election. The county courts are given the same jurisdiction as the High Court in respect of applications for relief relating to minor errors or omissions in connection with the payment or return of election expenses, in respect of injunctions restraining false statements as to the character or conduct of a candidate, and in respect of the inspection of ballot papers and counterfoils in connection with legal proceedings. This will enable some of these questions to be decided more quickly and economically than in the past when, for quite trivial reliefs, application has had to be made to the High Court with, on occasion, quite unnecessary expense.
  Part IV of the Bill deals with matters again relating to local government, and
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  arranges for all regular local government elections to be conducted in the Spring of the year. This is a reform which has long been asked for, particularly by borough councils, and will, I hope, enable both electioneering and voting to take place in more congenial circumstances than has sometimes been the case in the late Autumn. The London County Council constituencies will remain the Parliamentary Divisions for London, but in view of the decrease in the number of constituencies the number of councillors to be elected for each constituency has been increased from two to three.
  Mr. Keeling: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the suggestion which was put forward the other day by, I think, the hon. Member for St. George's, Westminster (Mr. Howard) that in view of the fact that the Cities of London and Westminster between them contribute more than half the rates of London, they should have a larger representation than three members on the London County Council?
  Mr. Ede: Representation is not based on ratepaying capacity. I do not think it would be possible to alter representation on that basis either in London or elsewhere.
  It will be possible in county and borough elections in future to require the poll to be kept open until nine o'clock in the evening. The time for delivery of nomination papers of Parliamentary elections has been extended to cover a period of several days. This was discussed very fully both on Committee and Report, and I think the conclusion we reached was that this would be for the convenience both of candidates' agents and others concerned with the election. The hours of poll at a Parliamentary election will, in future, be from seven o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock in the evening in all cases. It will not be necessary in future, when this Bill becomes operative, for a demand to be made that the poll should be extended either before eight in the morning or after eight in the evening.
  One fundamental reform which has been made is the new form of ballot paper. In future there will be no margins. The whole of the ballot paper will be divided in proportion to the number of candidates, equally between them; that is

  1371
  to say, if there are four candidates, each will occupy a quarter. There will be no margin either at the top or at the bottom and so it will be far easier to see, in the case of doubtful votes, exactly for which candidate the voter intended to cast his vote. Anyone who has watched a count will realise the wisdom of seeing that as little doubt as possible should exist on that score.
  An official poll card will be issued which will give information as to the place and time of the poll. It will not include the candidates' names. It is quite clear that no official poll card could be issued in the form in which poll cards have generally been issued in the past, indicating the way in which the persons issuing the poll card desired the voter to cast his franchise. Therefore, a leaflet showing the way in which the issuer of the leaflet would desire the voter to exercise his franchise will not be a copy of the official poll card. I think that will enable the matter to be arranged with the maximum of convenience, from the point of view of both the candidate and the returning officer.
  Mr. McKie: Does that prohibit the various party organisations from issuing their own polling cards?
  Mr. Ede: They may not issue a duplicate of the poll card, that is to say, the document on which are set out the few particulars which I have mentioned, but the requirement was amended in Committee so as to ensure that if a candidate or his agent likes to issue a leaflet saying, "If you desire to vote Conservative, Labour or Liberal, as the case may be, please mark your ballot paper thus," that will not be illegal. As the Bill was originally drafted it probably would have been illegal, and it was thought desirable, in order to remove all doubt, that a leaflet such as that should not in any way be something which could be confused with the official poll card.
  I have dealt with matters which I think we may assume are, on the whole, non-controversial. They represent a substantial improvement in the convenience with which elections can be conducted and they also ensure a greater possibility of persons being able to record their votes. We have enacted, for instance, that in rural areas, where in the past polling facilities
  1372
  have sometimes been very inadequate and voters have been put to considerable inconvenience, every parish shall, except in the special circumstances to be provided by the Secretary of State, be either one polling district or more than one polling district. We desire to see that the rural voter shall get, as far as can be secured—
  Mr. McKie: Without the use of motor cars.
  Mr. Ede: I will come to that in a few moments. We desire to see that he should have adequate opportunities for recording his vote in reasonable comfort.
  There are four controversial points points which occupied a very considerable part of the time of the Committee and of the House on the Report stage. They are the question of the university seats, the future representation of the City of London, the disparity between the size of borough and county seats in England, and the use of motor cars. These four matters are probably more certainly contro versial than some of the other matters which I have mentioned are non-controversial.
  Mr. Keeling: Would it not be more correct to describe the third point not as the disparity between borough and county seats, but as the difference between the seats which the Labour Party think they have a chance of winning and those they think they have not a chance of winning?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir. I should not have thought so, because it does not happen to be accurate. I should have thought such a remark would far better have been made in a speech than in an interruption to my speech, which I am trying to keep, at any rate up to this stage, as factual as I can.
  The main contention about this Bill has been about the extent to which this House of Commons is governed by incidents which happen during the existence of the previous House of Commons. It has been contended by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that this House of Commons is bound in these matters by decisions which were taken during the lifetime of the last House of Commons. We do not accept that suggestion at all. It would mean that when this Parliament was elected, in these matters its

  1373
  actions had been predetermined by its predecessor, that Members of the previous House had reached certain decisions on matters some of which have been controversial for several generations and that that precluded this House from dealing with them. We believe that this House of Commons is perfectly entitled to deal with these matters of its own volition, and we do not accept the idea that there was any bargain or other arrangement made in the last House which precludes us in this House from dealing with these matters along the lines which this House deems best in all the circumstances.
  In the case of the university seats we hold the view, which is embodied in the Bill, that the proper basis for being registered is residence in a particular constituency, and that a person has no right to be registered in respect of some qualification which does not identify him with that territorial constituency but has regard to some other circumstance peculiar to himself. The hon. Member for the Queen's University of Belfast (Professor Savory) the other night gave us a very entertaining, historical account of the way in which the university seats were saved in 1884. He suggested that this was due to a private interview between the then Marchioness of Salisbury and the late Mr. Gladstone, and that the effects of the blandishments of the Marchioness on the Grand Old Man were such that he abandoned his scheme for abolishing the university representation. I find that in the recollections of the first Earl of Midleton, better known in this House as Mr. St. John Brodrick, he says this was a bargain made between the Conservative and Liberal Parties by which the issue of the over-representation of Southern Ireland would not be raised, if the Conservatives were allowed to keep the nine university seats which then existed.
  Professor Savory: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consult the best authority on the subject, that is, the "Life of the Marquis of Salisbury" by his daughter Lady Gwendolen Cecil?
  Mr. Ede: I wanted only to bring to the notice of the hon. Gentleman that there is more than one way of accounting for what happened in regard to the university seats in 1884. The university seats have
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  been a matter of controversy, I think, at every redistribution of seats since 1867. I have given the reasons which we have for saying that the time has come when this particular form of representation should be ended. We do not regard ourselves as precluded from doing it by anything that happened in the previous Parliament.
  Now I come to the question of the City of London. There again, it is impossible in these days for anyone to defend the giving of separate representation to the City of London with 4,600 electors at a time when the average size of the electorate in England is well over 50,000. I do not deny the fact that in the past the City of London has sent distinguished Members to this House. Since 1906 it has been used far too often as a refuge for a Conservative candidate who has been rejected by one of the more popular constituencies. But if we proceed on the basis that in the past it has returned great and historic figures to the House, then we say that that is true of a large number of other boroughs and places which, in the course of years, have had to be amalgamated with other areas in order to ensure something like reasonable equality in the representation of the people.
  We had a discussion on Report on the use of motor cars. This Bill provides—in Clause 33 now—for a severe limitation on the number of motor cars that may be used in support of a particular candidate at an election. But I gather from the remarks that were made by several hon. Members opposite that this really will not lead to any reduction in the number of cars, for I understand from what they said that most of their motors are engaged on polling day in bringing voters to the poll irrespective of the person for whom they are going to vote. Indeed, during one or two of the speeches made by hon. Gentlemen opposite I came to the conclusion that Conservative candidates would have a very severe shock if they found that anyone they had taken to the poll had actually voted Conservative when he or she got inside the polling booth.
  This Bill does not prevent arrangements being made by which, if cars are placed at the disposal of voters irrespective of party allegiances, they may be used to convey voters to the poll; but it does impose a very severe limitation on those which are used to further the candidature

  1375
  of a particular candidate. Judging by what we heard on the Report stage, I should not, therefore, think that this will lead to any great loss of convenience to the electors. It has to be borne in mind that, by the provision we have made for additional polling places in the rural areas, and by making the arrangements that we have by which local authorities and 30 electors can complain if the polling facilities are not adequate, the need for conveyance to the poll should be very considerably reduced. In addition to that, the need for taking sick and infirm people to the poll in future will have entirely disappeared, because they will all be able to vote under the postal voting facilities.
  It was said by one hon. Member that this was the first time that any restrictions had been placed on the use of vehicles taking people to the poll, but I find, quoting from the same book to which I referred just now, that in the 1880 election in West Surrey the chief expenses of the Conservative Party
  "were due to our agents having, according to the custom of the day, engaged every conveyance in the Division for the day of the poll in order to ensure our voters reaching the limited number of polling places and the creation of a corresponding difficulty for our opponents."
  The comment made by the Conservative candidate involved was this:
  "These and similar manoeuvres were properly frustrated by Sir Henry James's Corrupt Practices Bill in 1884."
  Mr. Pickthorn: So what are we legislating about now?
  Mr. Ede: So this is not the first time that steps have had to be taken to ensure that the use of vehicles in an election shall be so controlled as to give reasonable facilities, and not more than reasonable facilities, to any one party using them as an organisation in support of the candidate.
  I come to the fourth of the points which I suggested were controversial. When the Boundary Commissioners submitted their report they obviously had misgivings about the size of some of the constituencies that they recommended. They had provided in England for eight constituencies each having a total electorate of more than 80,000. They submitted to me, about the time that they sent their
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  report, entirely unsolicited and without my having approached them either directly or indirectly in the matter, schemes for the division of those eight constituencies into two separate constituencies each, if that was thought desirable. I suggest that this House is the proper body to determine what should be the maximum size of a constituency. After all, Members of Parliament and not Boundary Commissioners have the task of serving the electors when the constituencies have been constructed. I think that the House has quite rightly come to the conclusion that the oversight of more than 80,000 electors is too much to impose on any Member of Parliament as his duty whilst sitting in this House. We therefore recommended to the House that those eight constituencies should be divided.
  I notice that the Opposition, in the Amendment to the Third Reading suggest that in this and the other matters in which we have departed from the Boundary Commissioner's Report, we have been actuated by a desire to serve the interests of one particular party. I only wish that they could convince some of my hon. Friends who have been to see me about this matter that that was the case. A number of them almost suggested that this was a conspiracy on my part to remove some of them from the House. At the time that the matter was debated, I gave the basis on which the House was recommended to reach that decision. We took whole great areas which could be subdivided without taking the constituencies outside the limits of tolerance observed in the report, and without creating any new difficulties with regard to local government boundaries.
  The House approved the proposal that we placed before them in Committee. As a result of representations that were made by some of the localities, the wards assigned to various constituencies under the new scheme were amended in the same way as some of the original proposals of the Boundary Commissioners were amended when they held their local inquiries and, in other ways, consulted local opinion. We feel that we have done something to get a little nearer to the plea of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) when we had the Debate on Second Reading. We have got a little nearer to "one vote, one value" in those constituencies, and it is desirable that that should be the case.

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  On the introduction of the Bill, the disparity in England between the borough and county divisions was no fewer than 6,082 votes on the average. By the action that we have taken, that disparity is reduced to 2,700.
  Mr. Medland: Except in the south-west.
  Mr. Ede: In the south-west, if my hon. Friend will take the area as a whole, he will find that similar figures hold good.
  Mr. Medland: No.
  Mr. Ede: The Government are not inclined to apologise, and they have no intention of apologising, for the action that they have taken. They believe that what they have done has made the representation of the people in the next Parliament more accurate than would otherwise have been the case.
  In conclusion, I want to say this. We are assured—we were assured the other night by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden)—that when the party opposite get the opportunity they propose to restore the university franchise and the university seats. We were assured several times that they will take steps to restore the City of London as a separate and new constituency, irrespective of the number of electors that it may contain. I can only say this afternoon, as I said the other night, that that is a proclamation that the Conservative Party still stands for the retention of every privilege, no matter how archaic it may be, so long as it suits their ends. They have given the country timely warning that that remains their principle in application to this Measure. They throw such a challenge down, and they can rest assured we shall unhesitatingly and with the utmost pleasure accept it.
  4.27 p.m.
  Mr. Churchill: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question, and to add:
  "this House, while recognising the necessity for an equitable scheme of redistribution, declines to give a Third Reading to a Bill which repudiates agreed recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference, 1944, and disregards for the purpose of Party advantage the findings of the Boundary Commission, thereby bringing discredit on Ministers of the Crown and lowering the traditional standards of our public life."
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  I rise to move the rejection of this Bill by a reasoned Amendment. Whatever may be thought of the harangue or oration to which we have just listened, no one will suggest that it was calculated to raise either the level or the temperature of our Debate. We have heard several speeches of this kind from the right hon. Gentleman, the greater part of which consists in reading out long extracts from the non-controversial passages of the Bill, which is already fully before us, with a few party gibes thrown in to ingratiate him self with his supporters. I shall not myself attempt this afternoon to inject undue heat into the discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Get on."] How do you mean, get on? I have only just begun. I propose on the Third Reading to make a calm, general survey in order to present the episode in which we are now concerned to the House in its plain and simple light.
  In our Parliamentary system, to which the Socialist Party pay frequent lip-service, and from which they have derived their power to rule the State, it is necessary from time to time to have a 'redistribution of the constituencies in accordance with the movements of population. This is particularly true after the disturbances of great wars. We, therefore, in the National Coalition Government, took the appropriate measures, by mutual agreement between the parties concerned, and by agreement between the individual Ministers concerned. The basis on which we acted was broad and plain; it was ordinary British fair play as between parties; and we thought that this should be achieved and ensured by a Speaker's Conference and an impartial Boundary Commission. Accordingly, all the proper steps were taken; each side gave up some of its party claims and interests, and a definite agreement was reached between parties and Ministers, involving, I say, the personal good faith of those directly concerned. We had a great majority—150 over all parties—in that Parliament, but we accepted the broad agreement.
  No one knew then how the impending General Election would go. No one knew then what would be the report and plan of the Boundary Commission when they had examined the whole matter according to the principles laid down. We could not have had anything more simple or more straightforward than the plan that was made by the National Coalition

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  Government for bringing our electoral system up to date in view of the many changes that had occurred. However, as hon. Members are well aware, the Socialists won the election by a great majority, and our colleagues in the War Cabinet—including particularly the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council, then Home Secretary, who were bound by the previous agreement—decided eventually to break that agreement and see if they could get some additional party advantage to themselves, although this did not become immediately apparent. The Home Secretary now claims that nothing that happens in one Parliament should affect or bind the decisions of another. But in those circumstances, when it was a National Coalition Government, those arguments are even less effective than they would be in other circumstances. I contend that both persons and parties were bound by what was then decided.
  But the matter does not rest there. It does not rest at all in the atmosphere of the last Parliament. When the assent of the new Parliament was required for the preliminaries of electoral reform, and so forth, for which there had to be temporary legislation, the Socialist Ministers concerned all spoke of the matter as one that had been settled by agreement between parties, and as if all that remained was to carry out the agreement. A great many quotations have been flung from one side of the House to the other in the course of these Debates, but let me give these, which I do not think have been quoted before. For example, on the Second Reading of the Elections and Jurors Act, 1945, the present Home Secretary said on 21st November, 1945:
  … as soon as we get the report of the Committee, whose names I hope to be able to announce in the course of the next three or four days, we shall be able to proceed with a permanent Measure of legislation which will bring us back, I hope, to the compilation of the register by canvass, publication, claim and objection, and"—
  these are the words to which I wish to draw the attention of the House—
  "will enable us to implement the remaining recommendations of the Speaker's Conference."
  Could anything be more clear than that the Speaker's Conference decisions were carried forward by the Government, after its victory, armed with its great majority,
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  from the last Parliament to this? Again, the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland—who distinguished himself in this Bill almost as much as his chief—said, when winding up:
  "But, as has already been stated, this is a temporary Measure"—
  that is the Elections and Jurors Act—
  "and, as far as I can see, when the present Government introduce legislation implementing all the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference that are found practicable"—
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] I suppose by "practicable" he meant "All that we can get our people to vote for"; but it was not understood in that way by the House at the time—
  "there is no likelihood of any opposition in the House whatever. Members from all parts of the House have been pleading with the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon to implement the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st November. 1945; Vol. 416, c. 503.]
  That was how the matter was opened to the House in November, 1945, after the General Election. Clearly, when the Government spokesman said there was no likelihood of any opposition in the House, he cannot have been contemplating the abolition of the university seats, or even of the business premises vote. The one minor qualification he made referred to people being registered for only one residence and one business qualification. Taken together, these quotations which I have read, which have escaped the searching examination of these Debates, make it perfectly clear that the Government felt themselves bound after the General Election—I emphasise, after the General Election—to implement the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference; and further, that after the General Election it was in their minds to retain university representation.
  After some months it appeared that the report of the Boundary Commissioners, on what they thought was a fair redistribution, might cost the Socialist Party as much as 35 seats of its enormous majority, already so disproportionate to the votes cast by the electors. For a Socialist majority to carry a Bill conceived on democratic principles for the representation of the people, which might cost them 35 seats, was more than their virtue could stand. They wanted to be fair; they wanted to keep their agreements; they wanted to submit to the decision of the impartial umpires; they

  1381
  wanted to respect the Speaker's Conference and maintain Parliamentary redistribution upon a higher plane than the mere decision of majorities in the House of Commons; but the loss of these 35 seats was driving them too far.
  The Socialists had about 20 seats in London which returned some of their leading Ministers, including the Prime Minister, which seats averaged only about 20,000 electors. These obviously must be liquidated by any redistribution Bill. They are, indeed, a good example of the unequal and unrepresentative character of the majority which gained the election of 1945. Obviously, these seats were going to be lost to the party opposite anyhow. Although the principles on which the Boundary Commission operated over the whole country sometimes hit one party and sometimes another, these very small London boroughs certainly represented a dead loss to the Socialists. Also, the reports of the Boundary Commission did not give them any compensation for this, because they were also found to be over represented in other parts of the United Kingdom as well.
  We must admit it was an awkward situation for well-meaning men to find themselves in. They wished to do what was straightforward and fair, and in accordance with what had been agreed upon between both parties and also personally agreed upon between the Ministers in the Coalition Government and between me and the present Prime Minister as leaders of the two parties. They had the natural British instincts of good faith and fair play. If it had been a matter of a half a dozen seats the Lord President of the Council might have taken it, but 35, however equitably and fairly awarded, was too much for his political fibre to bear. In these matters the right hon. Gentleman is like those road vehicles which have a label on their back, "Load not to exceed five tons." We quite understand his attitude; those who know him best and his intense interest in party electioneering understand it best. As Oscar Wilde said, "Ican resist anything except temptation."
  And so, with great reluctance, long hesitations and with a natural repugnance, it was decided to cheat. I am sorry to have to use that word, but it is the only one which fits exactly the process which
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  we have witnessed in the last few months. I must admit that the fall from grace was accomplished by gradations. At the Speaker's Conference it had been agreed that the university representation and that of the City of London should be maintained. Here were 13 seats held, as it happened, by Conservative, Liberal or Independent Members. The Labour Party had not got one of them—I wish to do full justice to their difficulty. The Secretary of State for Scotland—I do not think he is in his place today—I dare say precautions have been taken to keep him out of the Debate—was very frank about this. As none of the universities had returned any Labour Members but only Conservatives, Liberals or Independents, they had, in his opinion, shown themselves unfitted to exercise the franchise and therefore should be deprived of it. Let me quote his actual words. In a really remarkable intervention in a speech I was making on 16th February, he said:
  "As one of the members of that Conference, I would point out that the right hon. Gentleman has made several statements about a bargain. One of the reasons why the university vote was retained was because it was returning to this House distinguished persons of a non-political character But, since the Election, the Conservatives have broken that agreement by using the university vote to send back to this House Conservatives whom, at the General Election, the electors rejected at the polls."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th February, 1948; Vol. 447, c. 865.]
  Clearly this quotation shows that the Secretary of State for Scotland admitted that the bargain continued after 1945. How otherwise could the bargain be broken by the Conservatives 18 months after the election? How do the Conservatives break a bargain when universities or other constituencies choose to return the people for whom the great majority wish to vote? The proposition advanced by the Secretary of State for Scotland is, of course, absurd. If, as is probable, he had particularly in mind the result of the by-election in the Scottish Universities when my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for those universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) was returned—[An HON. MEMBER: "Where is he?"] Well, he is a Scotsman, and they often think of their native land. There is nothing wrong in that. I wish there was more of it. His proposition is absurd, because if he had in mind this Scottish business, his complaint appears

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  to be that my right hon. and gallant Friend was a Conservative.
  But there were five candidates at this election—a Conservative, Socialist, Liberal, Liberal National and Independent—and all except the Independent were party men, and, with the exception of my right hon. and gallant Friend, all lost their deposits. The Socialist candidate was Dr. Joad—[An HON. MEMBER: "He lost his ticket."]—an avowed adherent of the Socialist Party. If the objection is to party men, it would have been equally wrong for the university electorate to have returned Dr. Joad. Therefore, the only candidate for whom they could have voted was the Independent. Such was the perverted logic of the Secretary of State for Scotland, but it constitutes a clear admission that 18 months after the General Election his opinion was that there still had been an electoral bargain, and that the university franchise stood; if it had not been upset by the fact that the Scottish universities quite freely chose to return by an overwhelming majority a gentleman who supported the Conservative Party.
  So it was decided, because they returned a Conservative Member, to abolish the university representation, and one of the City seats has also been wiped out. That was 13 out of the 35, and it may well be that the Ministers whose honour and good faith is specially concerned in this matter wished to stand on these 13. But the party opposite could not rise to their level. They could not see how a Redistribution Bill which still left them with a loss of 20 seats according to the basis of population and the principles applied by the Boundary Commission, could possibly be considered democratic.
  It is my belief, from what I gathered in the earlier stages of this discussion, that the Home Secretary was genuinely shocked at the suggestion of making alterations in the ordinary constituencies of the country contrary to the recommendations of the Boundary Commission, and that he resisted these proposals in his own characteristic way—that is to say he resisted them on conscientious grounds until the party feeling got too hot. Then of course he had to bow to the storm. What is an honourable Socialist to do when asked to do a dishonourable thing?
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  It is a dilemma and an extremely difficult problem. Obviously he must resist it as long as he can, but the party feels that there must be reason and a sense of proportion in all these matters. A Socialist Minister cannot push these questions of good faith, fair dealing and settled agreement beyond a certain point. If there is enough pressure below the Gangway, the Minister must give way. Are they not all pledged to toe the party line?
  We saw the same process with the Home Secretary over the death penalty. We shall come to that later in this Session. I am sorry for the Home Secretary, because I still believe he feels his various humiliations acutely. It would be to his credit if he did, and my sincere advice to the right hon. Gentleman would be to retire from an office for which he is plainly unfitted by his qualities, as well as by his defects, and to return to private life, where he had previously shown himself quite a decent sort of fellow.
  In this case, I must admit that the party pressure was severe. It was expressed by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, now the Chancellor of the Duchy, whom, I believe, some persons have been glad to see back on the Front Bench. I have no wish to overstate the case. Party pressure was expressed by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer in his brief interlude of potential opposition. He demanded that another group of constituencies should be so handled as to give the Socialist Party, according to their calculations, an additional 17 seats. Another 17 seats added to the 13 already secured, would very nearly make the Redistribution Bill harmless from a Socialist Party point of view. That is to say, the readjustment of the representation in proportion to the movements of population would take place without inflicting any injury upon them. It was near enough, 30 as against 35.
  It only remained to throw in the Amendment about limiting the use of motor cars in elections so as to hit the Tories in the rural areas and make them walk—which, I can assure hon. Members opposite, they certainly will do, and walk with their boots on—to enable the whole process of redistribution to be accomplished without prejudice to the party interests of the Socialist Government and

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  of their majority. Thus the broad principle would be established that redistribution in accordance with the movements of the population may be effected from time to time, provided that the Socialists are no losers by it.
  That is where we are now. Indeed, I suppose we ought to think ourselves fortunate and even favoured that the process has stopped there and that the gerrymandering of the constituencies has not been carried further than merely maintaining existing balances. In Communist or satellite countries they go much further, and hold that the will of the people can only be expressed in the way in which the party which have got hold of the offices desire and resolve. In Czechoslovakia, they manage it all in a much more thorough-going fashion. This is also true of Yugoslavia. In Soviet Russia, 95 per cent, vote for Stalin and the Communist Government and the other 5 per cent. are given the tip to vote the other way, to show how fair and free the election has been. I quite agree that His Majesty's Government have not gone as far as that. They believe in free democracy fair play and good faith, so long as you do not try them too high.
  Let me repeat that I am not comparing conditions in Czechoslovakia with any that the Government are establishing by this Redistribution Bill. I wish to give them full credit for their moderation. They have not sought, and they have not dared, to deprive the British people of its free representation. They have only executed this small, minor, pinching, piece of chicanery which they call the Representation of the People Bill. They have not committed a crime, but only a small, mean, shabby trick. On the whole, I think they will lose in reputation more than they will gain in seats by what they have done. I wonder if it was worth it, having regard to the scale on which they are doing business? They are rather like a wealthy man who travels on the railway and ingeniously avoids paying for his ticket for part of the journey. It shows a lack of sense of proportion, but we for our part must not rate the matter too seriously.
  If there is a strong popular tide flowing against the Socialists at the next election, the petty swindles the Government have perpetrated will be all swept away.
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  What will not be so easily washed away, however, is the stain on the character of Ministers, who were definitely bound by agreement as individuals—or on the good faith of a party, which was also bound by agreements entered into in good will and in good faith by its responsible leaders—and who, because they could not bear to suffer the comparatively small disadvantage which normal redistribution would have inflicted upon them, have revealed their moral limitations to their fellow countrymen.
  I leave the past and come to the future. It is quite certain that the conduct of the Socialist Government in this matter has deeply impaired the principle of settling necessary redistribution measures by a Speaker's Conference and an impartial Boundary Commission. The precedent has been established that a Socialist Party may break all previous engagements if they obtain a majority in the new Parliament. The continuity and decorum of our national life as far as the representation of the people goes, has been broken, and it may take a generation to build it up again. Nevertheless, we on this side of the House will do our best to labour for that end. This compromise settlement of the Speaker's Conference was disadvantageous to us in some points. But, in protest at the conduct of Ministers we have decided to vote against this Bill. We do not regard it as an honest Measure of redistribution. Should we obtain a majority at the next General Election, we shall not, however, hold ourselves free to make any changes in the representation of the people so far as concerns constituencies which are not comprised within the ambit of the Speaker's Conference of 1944. I have the strong view that voting should be compulsory as it is in Australia and in Holland and that there should be a small fine for people who do not choose to exercise their civic duty.
  Let me say why I introduced the words "so far as concerns constituencies." We have no intention of acting outside the limits of what was agreed between the two parties at your Conference, Mr. Speaker. Some things in that Conference hurt us very much or we thought that they would hurt us very much. Others were advantageous, but in the future we shall take the rough with the smooth and

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  make no departure from the general basis there reached. Up to that limit, however, we hold ourselves perfectly free so far as the next Parliament is concerned to repair and redress the injuries and breaches of agreement which this present Bill now contains.
  For example, as the right hon. Gentleman apprehends, should we gain a majority we shall immediately introduce a Bill to restore university representation. We say that it was agreed upon by all parties at the Speaker's Conference. The 12 university seats, should our Bill become law, will be re-established and the elections for them will be held at once with results which will become effective in the next Parliament. There is nothing like putting it plainly, and we shall be judged in the country by our decision to take that step. Future Parliaments may see other Redistribution Bills, but I can only hope that by that time our standard of public life in this country will have been so far restored as to lift the whole process of redistribution to levels above the electioneering interests of rival parties and direct it solely with the desire of basing our ancient Parliament upon the broadest, freest and truest expression of the people's will.
  5.3 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: There is very little that I can say on the subject of university franchise after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). I feel bound in duty, however, to make a short speech on this subject before the end of this Bill. I represent 40,000 constituents from the universities of Durham, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol and Reading and in overwhelming numbers these constituents have expressed their opposition to this so-called reform. Therefore, I am bound to bring this matter before Parliament on its Third Reading.
  I stated my views on the Second Reading and I put one or two reasoned questions to the Lord President of the Council. He relegated his reply on this issue to the last few minutes without adducing any further arguments except that some university Members are definitely partisan and there are plenty of university graduates in all quarters of the House. The Home Secretary was more blunt when he
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  said that he wanted nothing but geographical representation associated with a specific area. He admitted that men and women of distinction had been elected but he said there was no guarantee about that in the future and that Cambridge once turned down Dr. T. E. Page. I could have retorted that Oxford turned down Gilbert Murray and G. D. H. Cole, while London turned down Mary Stocks. Almost every Labour leader except the Prime Minister and George Lansbury were rejected in 1931 and the Leader of the Opposition has been several times defeated. I cannot see what that has to do with the question. Perhaps we can leave constituencies, both university and otherwise to do what they will. So far, in this country, subject always to the permission of the Secretary of State for Scotland, the electors are free.
  But the Home Secretary produced a last and most astonishing argument when he said that no other country has adopted this system. The British Parliament is distinguished by scores of anomalies, customs and ceremonials that are the envy of the world. Apparently, the Home Secretary now demands that the Mother of Parliaments must conform to other popular assemblies and destroy everything that is unique and is not formed on the basis of logic and arithmetic. I can assure him that many friends of mine on the Continent, where the "list" system is the order of the day and where the universities have become the battleground for party rivalry, entertain feelings of admiration for this interesting and harmless survival.
  I want to state a case today which has not been stated before. In my opinion, the general case has been over-stated by some of my colleagues but they can speak for themselves. I am not a party man: I am independent. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) was far more generous and liberal on this matter. He does not share my political opinions, but unlike the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Cross-man) he was not only educated at a public school but he knows something of a modern university. Indeed, he is the chancellor of one of the universities I represent—the University of Birmingham—and he has once in his lifetime resigned,

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  which is another ancient custom of this House. My first and most positive point, then, is that the overwhelming majority of my constituents are opposed to this so-called reform, even though, like myself, they are opposed to plural voting.
  Mr. Peart: As a constituent of the hon. Gentleman, may I ask him how he gauges opinion, in view of his statement?
  Mr. Lindsay: Of course, I can. We had no notice of that, in spite of what the Lord President said, but since then questionnaires have been sent out from the universities. Figures are available and the figures are nine to one against.
  Mr. Peart: How many replies did the hon. Member get from his constituents?
  Mr. Lindsay: My hon. Friend will know that when we send out this type of questionnaire, it is a sample. It is bound to be. There could not be a survey of this kind any other way, even if we were trying to get the maximum number. The figures are nine to one against. I cannot give the figures for each university, but there are eight of them, with roughly about 5,000 electors in each. I should say the number of replies was between 40 per cent. and 60 per cent. Of those replies, nine to one were against. Of those who were against, there were quite a large number who desired to retain the vote for the universities and not the geographical vote. I tried to bring this before the House on a previous occasion, but the Lord President of the Council did not give me time. We had to get these things analysed and we had to consult with the universities, but my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) will know the figures as well as I do. Neither they nor the hon. Member had any notice of this. Both they and other universities—I have recently come back from Sheffield and other places, where I sampled the opinion—are impelled to suspect, from the evidence at their disposal, that this reform is not based on principle. I am not saying that hon. Members opposite are not opposed to university representation.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Not all of them.
  Mr. Lindsay: I hope the hon. Member will listen to what is a reasoned case. They came to the conclusion that it was
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  not based on principle, or upon the Speaker's Conference, or on the Boundary Commission, but on a calculation of electoral chances. That is what they say. That case has been made this afternoon. Is this suspicion not well founded? I certainly was given no notice, and only now, when these returns have been sent in to the various questionnaires, do I know what their views are. I knew nothing about this matter at the last General Election. I did not know, having heard what the Lord Chancellor said in another place and what was said in this House on various occasions, that this was to take place. They do not like the odour of it, even though it has been wrapped in the sanctity of democratic verbiage.
  My second point is one which can be conveniently expressed in an answer to the specious case put forward by the hon. Member for East Coventry the other night. Here I speak for myself. The case for university representation does not rest on any theory about the middle or professional classes. It does not rest on the personality of Members—much less. It does not rest on whether professors should be party men or, as the hon. Member for East Coventry said, spineless Independents. There are a number of hon. Members in this House elected on geographical interests and special interests, as in the case of the miners and landowners, whose interest is co-terminous with their constituencies. There are others, as in the case of railway clerks and other trade unionists, and of commercial and financial interests, unconnected with any one constituency. It may be that there are scores of Members who are graduates, and even ex-professors like the hon. Member for East Coventry. I have not noticed any great concern among those graduates over university reform, over the position of students, over the lamentable attack on graduates' salaries, over the present position of U.N.E.S.C.O. or over scores of problems arising out of manpower needs, and similar questions. It is to the credit of a few Members who occasionally attend here on Friday mornings that some of those grievances have been ventilated.
  Personally, I wish that we had that "spineless Independent," Professor A. V. Hill here, to make those informed and

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  objective speeches on scientific and medical matters, and that "spineless Independent," Miss Eleanor Rathbone; or that those other "spineless Independents," Sir John Boyd-Orr, T. E. Harvey, were here along with the "spineless" Members for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) and Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson). After the dogmatic and professional speech of the hon. Member for East Coventry, whose unflinching attitude of uncertainty on foreign affairs has been a feature of this Parliament, I am rather pleased to hear the products of the public schools coming to the rescue of the Labour Party.
  How often I have wished during the last three years that some "spineless Independent" would speak for the refugees of Europe without being dubbed either a Fascist or a fellow-traveller. That is what Eleanor Rathbone did for many years. How often have I wished that someone would espouse the cause of the Food and Agriculture Organisation without being called a crank or a bad party man, or would persuade the Government that books are not pots and pans but a vital vehicle for European reconstruction. How I have wished that some "spineless Independent" had, since 1945, stated the unstated case for Arab-Jew co-operation and thus saved this country from the ignominy of the present crisis; or, to come nearer home, that some "spineless Independent" had stated the case against the present Children Bill, to which so many hon. Members opposite with experience are genuinely and rightly opposed. There are scores of unpleaded causes in this House, partly because private Members' time has been stolen by the Executive and partly because of the inevitable partisan approach to everything, so that legislation has outdistanced administration.
  I am not objecting to party government. On the contrary. I have fought five tough seats and I may do so again. I am objecting to the ruthless doctrine which seeks to root out all the inconvenient minorities, the doctrine of the right hon. Member the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and of the hon. Member for East Coventry. It is not merely that Independent Members have been responsible for reforming the divorce laws, introducing family allowances, creating the Hansard Society and a lot of other useful additions to our national life, but
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  that this Bill virtually closes the door on Independents who are not blessed with worldly goods, party funds or trade union support. In future, they will not be allowed to enter this Chamber and to plead causes against the tide of mass opinion. Every now and then a genius will emerge and defy his party, as did the right hon. Member for Woodford, and change the course of history, as has happened in recent times.
  I do not believe, with some of my hon. Friends, that the Bill is a blow at university education, or that it is a blow at the professions or even a blow at the electoral chances of the present Government in 1950. I believe it is a petty, stupid act of aggression upon an ancient franchise which worked well at its best and was admired in many countries. It gave a chance more than once to minority views. In fact, of course, it is a blow at common sense. I am fortified in this submission because many hon. Members opposite happen to agree with me. This House is always a generous assembly. I thank it tonight for its indulgence in listening to a speech which in many ways is very distasteful for me to make. I think it is right that I should represent the views of my constituents. It is time that this case was stated.
  5.19 p.m.
  Mr. Peart: I do not accept the view of the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) that his views represent necessarily those of the vast majority of people who poll the university vote. I am certain, and I say this to him, that if this principle were debated fairly in the university with which I am connected in a humble way, the hon. Member would not get that overwhelming majority. I am certain that in Durham, in a fair debate, if this matter were debated as a principle, there would perhaps be a majority the other way. I am prepared to challenge the hon. Member in his own constituency on that issue to come to a university debate at Durham to debate this very important matter.
  I believe that it is wrong, too, to infer that a large section of graduate opinion has come to the conclusion that we have introduced this reform because we seek to have some special political arrangement which will give us some benefit at the General Election. I believe that is a wrong

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  inference. More than that, I welcome the abolition of the university vote. I do so as a matter of principle. I accept the view of the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities that it has sent to this House many people who have achieved much in other fields and who have added great distinction to our Parliamentary Debates. I am very proud that I should have been a constituent of Eleanor Rathbone, but surely that is not an argument? We could argue that this House of 600 Members and more should only have returned to it Members who had dark hair or were short in stature. No doubt if we had that as part of our law, out of those 600 short men we might have a few Members of ability.
  Mr. K. Lindsay: I have not made the case tonight about the distinction of any individual. I have only spoken about Independents. The hon. Member must not put into my mouth words which I did not say.
  Mr. Peart: I am certain that I am not misrepresenting the hon. Member. He quoted a long list of distinguished people.
  Mr. Lindsay: I must get this straight. I have never stated, and I was not stating, the case that there is a particular distinction about university Members. I would not do it anyway. All I was doing was talking about Independents. If they happen to have distinction, that is another question.
  Mr. Peart: Throughout his speech the hon. Member emphasised the point that Independents have made great contributions to our Parliamentary life, and I would agree, but that is not an argument to retain something which I believe to be undemocratic in principle. I cannot accept the view that because a man has a qualification in mathematics or a degree in geology he has some superior civic knowledge to a non-graduate member of society. Why should we say that because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) has a degree in Oriental languages he should have two votes, and that because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) is not a member of a university he should have only one vote? That is undemocratic, and for that reason I believe that if we are to evolve our democracy and make it more complete,
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  we must remove these last vestiges of undemocratic procedure which are not in keeping with our 20th century needs.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Does not my hon. Friend recognise that the Bill still allows the continuation of a great many other anomalies? In view of that, does he not think it absurd to fasten on this particular one when there is considerable feeling on these benches in favour of retaining the university vote?
  Mr. Peart: I am glad that my hon. Friend admits that it is an anomaly. I agree that it is an anomaly, and we are altering it. I hope that at a later period we may have more legislation to remove other anomalies, which I hope to deal with in my speech. However, this is an anomaly, and we are removing it. I am quite certain that if this became an election issue, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford would make it—we have had the second indication of Tory policy this afternoon—all sensible people will accept, generally speaking, our view that there should be "one citizen, one vote." I welcome this Bill because it removes an anomaly which cannot be justified in any modern democracy.
  We have had from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford a very interesting knockabout speech. He said that my right hon. Friend had delivered a few party gibes. If we look at his speech and read it very carefully, we shall find that his speech was full of party gibes. There were the usual phrases which we expect—that we have broken agreements, and that we have an unrepresentative majority in this House. I can only say to the right hon. Gentleman that he reminds me of a person who is prepared to play a game and accepts the rules of the game, and then condemns the rules under which he has played.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: That is exactly what the Government have been doing.
  Mr. Peart: That is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford has been doing this afternoon when he made another gibe against the representative character of this House and the Parliamentary majority which we obtained in 1945. Indeed, I am

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  certain that if it had an opportunity, the Tory Party would even claim the referee.
  I wish the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends had come here this afternoon to make a constructive case. They could have done so had they wished. There is a sound argument in the view that we should have delayed this Measure, first reformed the local government structure and the local government boundary system, and then dealt with our Parliamentary boundaries. There is a sound argument for such action. We could have delayed this Measure for a period of time. There are many reasons. We are experiencing the aftermath of war, with drifts of population as our people return to our blitzed cities, the erection of new housing estates and in other areas the development of new factories leading to the growth of new communities. It would perhaps have been better if we had delayed this Bill and waited for the settling down of our population. We could then have carried out a major reform of local government and afterwards, upon that reformed local government structure, built a really representative Parliamentary system. That would have been the sensible course to take. I am sorry that we did not do it. I am certain that if we had done that, the right hon. Gentleman for Woodford would still have come to this House and made the same party speech which he has made today.
  Mr. Churchill: Not the same; a similar one.
  Mr. Peart: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman admits that it would have been a similar speech. There is good sense in the suggestion which I have made, for already the proposals of the Boundary Commission are out of date. It seems strange to me that alongside the Boundary Commission we should have another Commission dealing with local government boundaries. It seems absurd. Already in many areas some of the mathematical calculations of the Boundary Commission in relation to constituency populations are out of date. I could give specific examples.
  That is why I wish to ask certain questions of my right hon. Friend who will reply to the Debate. After this Bill has become an Act, how shall we tackle the
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  numerous anomalies which have already been created through our out-of-date local government structure? Will the Boundary Commission sit as a permanent court? Will the Boundary Commission continually make recommendations to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary? Will we have to initiate legislation in order to deal with those anomalies? Will local authorities, Members of Parliament and political parties be able to make still more representations to the Boundary Commission after this Bill has become an Act? It is important that we should have answers to those questions.
  After all, during the Committee stage there was some degree of ambiguity on that matter. I believe that the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) quoted the words, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave." It is important to know what will be the power and functions of the Boundary Commission when this Bill becomes law. More than that, as the Home Secretary said during the Committee stage, we still have to deal with the overrepresentation of Scotland. On the basis of population, Scotland has 90 seats more than England and Wales. I prefer to call it the under-representation of England. I hope that my right hon. Friend will have a bit of healthy English nationalism. After all, we are treated so often to dull Scottish nationalism in this House, if I may say so without attempting to insult my Scottish colleagues. I hope this matter will be looked at carefully. The Home Secretary said on 15th June:
  "I share to some extent the views of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) that part of the difficulty which confronted the Boundary Commissioners and which has since confronted everybody has been the fact that there are too few Members allowed to England and Wales in this Bill. I have no doubt that in some future redistribution something will have to be done to bring about a lessening of the disproportionate representation of the three parts of Great Britain in this House. I am quite certain of that. That, however, is not a matter which can be dealt with at the present time in the Bill, but for what it is worth I place it on record."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th June, 1948; Vol. 452, c. 321.]
  Surely that anomaly will not alter with time. How will we deal with this problem? Will it mean major legislation? I believe it is important that my right hon. Friend who is replying should give an answer on that point. I welcome this

  1397
  Bill, even though one could perhaps criticise the timing of the Bill in relation to the tendencies in local government. This Bill removes certain privileges which cannot be defended if we seek to build up a real democracy in this country. There is the question of the university vote, which has been debated so often in this House. There is the representation of the City of London. I wish on those issues that the Opposition had been constructive. I offer them a suggestion. Perhaps, if they had wished to preserve the association of the City of London with the dignity and tradition of this House, they could have reserved the City of London seat for Mr. Speaker. This would necessitate a by-election in another constituency every time a new Speaker was elected. Perhaps hon. Members would like to see Mr. Speaker associated with the City, which did play an important part in Parliamentary history through its association with "that devil Wilkes."
  I know that hon. Members would not oppose the removal of the City of London representation, if the City had not consistently returned Tory Members of Parliament to this House. They are playing the Party game, and they know it. This Bill should be welcomed by all people who desire to improve our democracy. The university vote, the City of London and other anomalies in this Bill, cannot be defended. This Representation of the People Bill, even though it is bitterly attacked by the right hon. Member for Woodford and the hon. Member for Oxford—who wished to call it the "Representation of the Labour Party Bill"—and despite the snarls of the hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch), who is not in his place today, will help to complete the long evolution of Parliamentary democracy. It will be welcomed by all sections of opinion outside this House.
  5.34 p.m.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I desire, if I may, with the indulgence of the House, to endeavour to point an argument, I think a little different from what has hitherto been put, upon the main constitutional question involved. In order to put it I hope the House will bear with me if, in order to try and make clear what it is specifically that I am especially approaching, it will be necessary for me to begin by indicating—not quite to begin,
  1398
  but to go on—by indicating the more general case which has already been made, in a way infinitely superior to anything I will even attempt, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). I shall do my best to be as little repetitive as possible, but I hope it will be understood, if I am to some slight extent repetitive, why I am permitting myself so to be.
  I should like to begin with a word or two about one or two speeches we have had today. I thought it was rather unfortunate that we should have the patronage about the amusing knockabout speech from our Front Bench, from the hon. Gentleman opposite. I thought it was unnecessarily patronising, and I shall continue to think so. It is not necessarily true, as is frequently assumed, that those who are always dull and dreary are necessarily more serious or more deeply moved than the rest.
  I want to begin my main argument with this, by asking the House to agree that the main division in the politics of the world, at present, is not, as we most of us have thought until fairly recently, between the Socialists and the individualists, but that the main division is the division between those who believe in constitutionalism and those who do not. I hope that that will be generally agreed. Secondly, I hope it will be generally agreed that the Constitution of this country, so far as it can be put in a very few words, is pretty correctly indicated in this manner: that we have now an elective assembly almost, but not quite arithmetically an exact microcosm of the electorate, an elective assembly which is all powerful, except that there are other elements in the Constitution which may exercise a very slight delay on the action of this omnipotent, and as the lawyers say omnicompetent elective assembly. That is the Constitution of our country.
  If that were all, if that were all the Constitution of this country, it would not really be a Constitution in any continuous and useful sense, because if that were all, then at any given moment whoever had got 51 per cent. of the votes of this House, if he felt himself not in the least controlled by the habits of the House, by the actions and decisions of previous Parliaments—if that were so we would be left with no Constitution at all, with the mere arbitrariness of any occasional majority.

  1399
  I ask right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite really to ask themselves, to consider within themselves, whether that is what they would wish to happen; and if that is not what they would wish to happen, I ask them to admit that so far we have not from this side really pitched our claim on this matter of obligation as high as we might have, because almost all the speakers from our side, I think at this stage and earlier stages of the Bill, have been willing if only for the sake of argument to admit that hon. Gentlemen elected in 1945 are not at all bound by the understandings which were in existence before.
  My submission is that that is an excessive and unnecessary admission. I wholly disagree with the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) who spoke the other day about the minor question of obligation as contrasted with the major question, which, in his view, was the abolition of the university seats, and the erection of the 17 new seats. I wholly disagree. I think the major question is the question which I have just tried to indicate, and I will now endeavour to show what seems to me to be the right and indeed, I think the irresistible answer to that question.
  What do right hon. and hon Gentlemen opposite owe their position to, owe their power, owe such glory as they have, all the authority and joy of the whole situation? They owe it to the history of hundreds of years before, but most particularly to the history of the last few years before. Therefore, those who entered the Socialist Party—I mean the Parliamentary Socialist Party—at the last General Election, are not less bound than those who were in the Parliamentary party already before 1940, for example, or from then on until 1945.
  There must be something special about franchise and distribution Bills or else we are left with no Constitution of any kind at all. The extremest stretch of this House's power is when this House alters its own nature, and the most clearly objectionable stretch—I do not mean that the objection is not rebuttable, but the most clearly objectionable stretch of this House's power in that connection—is when it stretches the power, not to create some new seat or to extend the franchise, but to destroy some seat or class of seats
  1400
  and to destroy some thousands of franchises. That is the extremest thing that this House can do.
  If it is demonstrated—and I say that it is demonstrated by the way in which this Bill has been pushed through and, presumably, will be pushed through this evening—if it is demonstrated that there is one great Party in the State which does not consider that that matter of franchise and distribution needs wider thought, less partisan motive, a more careful endeavour to get the maximum of agreement from both sides; if there is one of the two great Parties in the State which does not think that those things are requisite to franchise and distribution Bills, as to no other; if there is one of the two great Parties in the State which does not think that, then I say that the whole constitutional nature of this country is in the gravest danger. That is the charge—the main charge—against the Party opposite, and the main objection to what they are doing.
  The Home Secretary, as you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, will remember—and perhaps you will forgive me if I remind other hon. Gentlemen of the words with which the Home Secretary began these Debates. I cannot find them now, but if we look at the first sentence of the speech on the Second Reading we shall see that he began his Debate, near enough, by saying:
  "This Bill completes the progress of the British people towards a … complete"—
  he used the word twice,
  "complete democracy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th February, 1948; Vol. 447, c. 839.]
  I thought, when he said that, that it was a dangerous thing to say. It is an old and, I think, a reasonable superstition—if there can be reasonable superstitions—that it is very dangerous to finish anything right off. One form of it is the theatrical superstition, that one never utters the tag—the final words—when one is rehearsing. One of the few things quite certain about great human development is this: That when a great human development is complete, it is finished, it is over. When this country, if ever, reaches a complete democracy, that will be the end of democracy in this country. I dare to prophesy that and I dare to say—although I do not think I often come the professor, so to speak, in these matters—that there are few, if any,

  1401
  people, who have professionally studied the history of political development who will deny it. I thought it was a dangerous theme on which the Home Secretary began. We had almost the same words again just now from the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart).
  I beg them to believe that this Bill, so far from completing democracy in any desirable sense, is highly destructive of constitutionalism; and that it is only upon the basis of constitutionalism that it is possible for democracy to continue. It is destructive of the Constitution because it denies and degrades that "system or body of fundamental principles according to which the body politic is constituted and governed," whose "gradual establishment by precedent has been the essential characteristic of the British Constitution." That is not an awfully good sentence, I know. I copied it from the Oxford English Dictionary because I wished to avoid any dispute about whether I was using the word "constitution" in its exact sense.
  It is destructive of that and, for that reason, it is bad. It is worse, because it comes at the end of a long line of constitutional outrages. They—the Party opposite—are the masters now. And what are they the masters of? They are the masters of a great Constitution, as of a great Empire, visibly getting less in entity and essence and even more rapidly less in prestige with every day they sit in office. It is worse for that reason, on, top of the ways we have had Bills forced through this House; on top of the demonstration that the Home Secretary does not follow the constitutional decency of our time and of many previous generations—that Ministers are responsible for initiating legislation on any matter of importance—in the matter of hanging, for instance, in the matter of conscription, and of supporting national existence, for example in the matter of foreign policy. These were the great things which previous men who were, even if they did not boast of it, the masters, thought their great care; those great things these men care nothing for. If they bother to hope to see those things managed at all, they trust to a majority from this side of the House to get them managed. The purpose of passing this Bill is unconstitutional and, because of what went before,
  1402
  not simply unconstitutional but that much worse.
  And thirdly, it is worst of all because it makes infinitely difficult any negotiation in future. How is anybody ever again to negotiate with the Secretary of State for Scotland? His incapacity to understand anything is equalled only by the infinity of his capacity to remember anything. Anything which will be useful he will remember. He remembered, for instance, the Debates on the university seats in the Speaker's Conference, and has endeavoured to influence the conduct of this House by reporting those Debates. By my memory and of those I have consulted there were not any Debates—the thing went through "on the nod." How ever again are we to negotiate with men like that?
  When we are told that the Speaker's Conference was to be only for the last Parliament, then why on earth did the majority party go into it? Why did not the majority Party do then what would suit it? Why did it not, for instance, disfranchise the little seats, the safe little seats which the senior members of the Socialist Party mainly sat for in this House, by flinging them into the ones next to them and saying, "They are not neatly arithmocratic?" What reasons could there have been for any reasoning or discussion in the Speaker's Conference but the assumption that there was to be continuity, there was to be consent, there was to be tolerance, there was to be some vestige of honour in this part of our Parliamentary arrangements, if nowhere else?
  5.49 p.m.
  Mr. Neil Maclean: I am rather surprised at the concluding remarks of the hon. Member the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn).
  Mr. Pickthorn: I am surprised by the beginning of the hon. Member's remarks.
  Mr. W. R. Williams: The hon. Member for Cambridge University need not be rude.
  Mr. Maclean: Surprise is one of the things we have in common. The hon. Member spoke about this Government's doing their best to gerrymander seats by getting majorities in the smaller safe seats

  1403
  for Ministers. But I want to point out to him that very few seats have been safe seats for Labour until recently.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Very few will be.
  Mr. Maclean: The hon. Member had better be careful in case he should lose his own seat. I sat in a safe seat—or have been sitting in a safe seat—for 30 years but, prior to my winning it in 1918, it had never before been won by Labour although it had been fought for on five different occasions.
  Mr. Pickthorn: The other chaps were fighting something else in 1918.
  Mr. Maclean: The hon. Member for Cambridge University is completely wrong. It was immediately after the 1914–18 war that I won the seat, and I have held it ever since. I made it a safe seat through my work in this House and in my constituency, and lam certain that there are other Members on these benches who will retain their membership of this House because they made their seats safe, too. I also believe that some of my hon. Friends who came into the House at the 1945 Election will, in all probability, be safe at the next election because of the work they have already done here.
  I want to put a personal point of view, and I take this opportunity to refer once again to the manner in which the redistribution of constituencies has been gerrymandered without an opportunity for the seat or the political parties concerned to be consulted. Half of my constituency, parts of which date back to the year 400, has been put into another constituency, evidently to make it a safe place for someone else. When I raised this matter in the House with the Secretary of State for Scotland, he suggested that we should come to an agreement with the adjoining constituency. I said that we had tried to come to an agreement, but that they had declined. No notice was given to any of the political parties in the constituency of Govan. No request was made to us to hold a conference so that the new boundaries might be settled by agreement among all parties. Now, half the constituency is to be taken away, the historical part of it, and merged into another constituency. When we tried to come to a mutual agreement with the other constituency
  1404
  they refused. They were satisfied to get away with their division without our being consulted. Because of the manner in which all this has been done, because of the way in which a safe seat has been practically given to the Opposition, I intend to vote against the Third Reading of this Bill.
  5.53 p.m.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am sorry that the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean), who is so respected in all quarters of this House, should have begun his contribution to this Debate by references to what would or what would not create safe seats for members of one party or another. Surely, that is a point which should not be considered from any point of view in our discussion of this matter—
  Mr. Maclean: I was replying to something which was said by the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn).
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It seems that the hon. Gentleman misapprehended the argument of my hon. Friend, and I am very glad that he has cleared up the impression, which he certainly created in my mind, that he was concerning himself with the creation of safe or unsafe seats for members of any party. Surely, that is the one consideration which this House of Commons, when it takes it upon itself to redistribute seats and amend the electoral law, should not consider. The fact that this point has been brought in is one of the evil consequences which have followed from the manner in which the Government have conducted the lengthy proceedings on this Bill. It has been a depressing and disillusioning experience, particularly for those of us who still thought that some members of the Government, notably the Home Secretary, had certain standards of decency in politics—
  Major Guy Lloyd: And honour.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, and honour. It has been depressing to watch the way in which discussion on the contents of this Bill and the Amendments to it has been conducted by the Government. I for one thought the Home Secretary was in heart and mind, a constitutional democrat.

  1405
  I have always profoundly respected and admired him as a man. It has been very depressing to me personally to see that that faith has been so wholly disproved, that those of my hon. Friends who warned me not to place confidence in the integrity of the right hon. Gentleman were right, and that the confidence I had in him was misplaced.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) said, there is much more at stake here than the question of advantage for one party or another. We are concerned with constitutional arrangements, and, as one of the few free democracies left in the world, and with the picture of what is going on in other countries in our minds, it is still more incumbent upon us to insist that the standards of constitutional decency and personal integrity in British politics should be preserved. It has been made clear that the central idea behind the Government's handling of this Bill, from its initiation onwards, has been that any fair redistribution of Parliamentary seats must inevitably cause a disadvantage to the Socialist Party. That must be so if we consider the fact that there are Members on my own side of the House, such as myself, who represent over 100,000 electors, while there are three Members on the Benches opposite who represent the 63,000 electors of the borough of Stepney.
  Faced with that problem, someone in the Government decided that if redistribution were to be effected at all compensation measures must be taken to ensure that the Socialist Party were at no electoral disadvantage. I have a fairly clear idea of who that influence was. It may not have passed your notice, Sir, that the surprisingly fertile imagination of the Minister of Transport has portrayed, in public print, a creature described as a "Jimp" which is designed to lead motorists into doing what is wrong. It is no coincidence that that caricature bears an astonishing facial resemblance to the Lord President of the Council, particularly in its taste in hair dressing, and I feel that while the Lord President has been the "Jimp," jumping on the bonnet in front of the windscreen whenever the Home Secretary was trying to drive on the right side of tin road—
  Mr. Collins: The wrong side.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right and the correct side. I would remind the hon. Member that in politics the Right is always the right side. I am convinced that the Home Secretary has been dragged unwillingly by this representative of the Socialist Party machine into doing what is a very considerable wrong to something that matters a great deal more than advantages to the great political parties in this House. Wherever we look at the provisions of this Bill—apart from the purely technical ones, over which the Home Secretary, for good tactical reasons, concerned himself so much today—we see that the central and co-ordinating theme is the political advantage of the Socialist Party at the next election.
  I do not propose to say much about the university seats since the university Members are more than capable of saying it on their own behalf. However, it is right that it should be made quite clear to the House that the objection to the cynical repudiation of a pledge in this connection is not confined to those Members who sit for university seats Any of us who have studied for one moment what has been said on this matter are forced inevitably to the conclusion that there is here an absolutely open breach of a perfectly clear understanding. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) referred earlier this afternoon to one of the observations with which the Secretary of State for Scotland has graced our Debates in this matter. I should like to refer to another on this subject. He said:
  "I was prepared to accept that"—
  a retention of university seats—
  "and indeed, in the case of some hon. Members I still accept it—as being a possibility; but—and I am not making any reflection on hon. Members who have been returned by the universities—when the universities can be used to return purely party Members … without their having a specially independent character in this House, then I suggest that that is a breach of the arrangements we came to in the Speaker's Conference."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th June, 1948; Vol. 452, C. 187.]
  That is to say the Secretary of State for Scotland says to the House of Commons that he will keep his word for just so long as it is to his advantage to keep it and that he will break it just as soon as it becomes manifestly to his advantage so to do. That is an aspect of the matter by which the people of

  1407
  this country who are not in the slightest degree concerned with the merits of university representation have been able to apprehend and appreciate perfectly clearly the motive which the Home Secretary has so sedulously attempted to conceal and which the Secretary of State for Scotland has been so active in revealing.
  I should like to turn to two other matters, the first of which is what is intended to be the main object of the Bill, the redistribution of Parliamentary seats. I believe that the principle adumbrated on Second Reading by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake), that the detailed redistribution of Parliament seats is a matter much better left to a Boundary Commission than effected on the Floor of the House, is the right principle. I believe that it is trying hon. Members on both sides very high if they are called upon to decide and vote upon changes in the constituencies which cannot but affect their own electoral chances favourably or unfavourably. I believe that the right view is to accept the findings of the Boundary Commission as they are made and stand by them, taking the rough with the smooth. The Government did not follow that course.
  The Government saw fit, on the Committee Stage, to introduce 17 additional seats to increase the representation of areas which they regarded as underrepresented. Even at that stage some of us took the Home Secretary at his word, some of us believed that he was acting for reasons other than party advantage and that there might be a case on the merits for doing what was proposed. To take him at his word we also went through the same procedure which he had followed. We asked the Boundary Commission to consider the under-representation of certain other areas and we put the results of that consultation with the Boundary Commission before the House.
  It seems to me to be important to consider the reaction of the Home Secretary to this step, not merely because five extra constituencies were concerned, but because the matter applied an acid test to the sincerity of the Home Secretary and the Government on this matter. The five cases were, on their merits, overwhelming. The hon. Member for North-West
  1408
  Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) was good enough to say that he had been convinced by the argument which I put forward in connection with part of Surrey. I will not recapitulate those arguments save to say that as the Bill stands today, and in respect of which we had sought to amend it, there are eight constituencies in northeastern Surrey with an average of 67,000 electors. That is only a defensible position if it is impossible to introduce more seats without violating local government boundaries. The Amendment put forward from this side of the House did not violate a single local government boundary, and if accepted it would have left that part of Surrey with an average electorate of 4,000 more than the average for the country as a whole.
  That Amendment, like the other four with equally conspicuous merits, which my hon. Friends put forward, was not even discussed in detail by the Home Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman merely got up and said that he had listened to the arguments and that as a result
  "I think that, merely by taking corners of countries to deal with, the Opposition have not, in fact, followed the same procedure as did the Government, where we took the whole of large units. For this reason, in addition to those which I gave in detail when I spoke previously, I am not prepared to accept the Amendment."—[OFFICIAL REPPORT, 15th June, 1948; Vol. 452, c. 322].
  Five cases which had been fully argued were rejected on the ground that they dealt only with corners of counties. The corner of the county to which I had invited the right hon. Gentleman's attention has a population of a half a million, and if that is too small to merit the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman it is a little curious that he was able to add an additional seat in Battersea, where there are only 80,000 people in all, and another additional seat in Hammersmith, where the figures are the same.
  It is perfectly obvious that the only consideration which distinguished Battersea and Hammersmith on the one hand from Surrey on the other, is that the Government know that in Surrey their political chances are extremely poor and they believe, wrongly I think—I consider that they are under an illusion—that their chances are better in the boroughs. That can be the only possible distinction between the two. I must

  1409
  say that that action of the right hon. Gentleman finally convinced me—unwillingly, I ask the House to believe—that the object of this Bill was not to secure a fair distribution of Parliamentary seats but to secure, on the contrary, the possibility of a return to power by the Labour Party.
  The other matter to which I would now invite the attention of the House is Clause 33, which the right hon. Gentleman introduced on the Report stage. That Clause—the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly frank—is intended to assist the Socialist Party. As will be seen from the OFFICIAL REPORT of 14th June, column 53, he made a frank admission as to that. So did his hon. Friends the Members for Bexley (Mr. Bramall) and Gravesend (Sir R. Acland), in column 67 and column 79. His point, as I understood it, was that the Conservative Party obtained an advantage by the large scale use of motor cars. That advantage, as I apprehend it, is obtained by reason of the fact that the Conservative Party are able to get to the poll supporters of theirs who would otherwise not get there. I take it that it is not suggested that any elector in this country is so venal that the offer of a lift in a motor car causes him to change the way in which he would vote. I take it that the Home Secretary does not suggest that. He is suggesting that the Conservative voters go to the poll more easily. His solution of that difficulty is characteristic of the present Government; not as one would have thought, that everybody should get to the poll as easily as possible, but to take away the advantage which he thinks that some people have, a perfect example of the policy which in other matters is pursued with undeviating consistency by the Minister of Food.
  There is, of course, a case, if one party is by reason of material factors obtaining an advantage over another, for doing something to remedy that; I fully concede that. I should, however, like to put to the right hon. Gentleman the question, Is the use of motor cars the only material factor which assists one party compared with another? Is it not a fact that one party obtains assistance from the use of trade union organisations, trade union organisers and trade union premises? If the right hon. Gentleman is really sincere in his desire to remove material advantages from one side or the other, it cannot
  1410
  stop at motor cars. It is perfectly clear that he is seeking to take away what he regards as an advantage to the Conservative Party, while holding on like grim death to such material advantages as his party has.
  When this matter was raised by his hon. Friends, speaking from a somewhat significant eminence on the mountain opposite, the Home Secretary expressed doubt as to whether it was possible to devise a Clause which would do what they sought to do. If I may say so, the Clause which the right hon. Gentleman himself produced showed how well-founded those doubts were. The Secretary of State for Scotland subjected himself to, I thought, the unmerited derision of my hon. Friends when he said that interpretation of this matter must be left to the courts and that one could not forecast how a court would construe the Clause. I wholly agree with the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Clause is so drafted that it is almost impossible to forecast how any court will construe it, and the only objection to that argument of the Secretary of State was that he seemed to think that this was an argument in favour of the Clause.
  Let me invite the attention of the Home Secretary to this: persons concerned in fighting a hotly contested election are people for whom the law should be as simple and clear as possible. It is highly undesirable that harassed candidates and harassed election agents should be compelled to operate in a world of uncertainty, never knowing that some action they may take may or may not involve them subsequently in all the expense of an election petition. If there be a branch of the law in which clarity is essential, it is surely election law, and yet here we have a Clause put forward in which Ministers of the Crown, having admitted frankly their incapacity to interpret it themselves, have added the additional comment that they do not know how the courts will construe it either.
  Let me put one further difficulty to the right hon. Gentleman. The thing which is legislated against is conveyance to the poll. I should like to ask the Lord President, who is to reply, how that is to be understood. Must it be completely to the poll? Is conveyance half way to the poll made an offence under this Clause or not? Is conveyance to the party's offices, from

  1411
  which a shuttle service of legitimate cars can operate, barred by this Clause or not? Is conveyance to the market town in which the polling station happens to be located barred or not? We really are entitled to be told the answer to this here and today, and not leave it for anxious election agents and harassed candidates to settle when the time of the election comes. It is quite obvious that this Clause either means a great deal too much or a great deal too little. It is perfectly clear that it will cause the greatest trouble and the greatest hardship because of its vagueness, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether, for once, he was not right when on the Committee stage he expressed a doubt as to whether it was possible to draft a Clause that would deal with this.
  This Bill will, whatever my hon. Friends and I are able to do about it, be pushed through with the usual automatic majority by right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I have no doubt that even those hon. Gentlemen opposite who have the courage to denounce certain aspects of it at 10 o'clock will trip obediently into the Lobby in support of it. However, perhaps I may be allowed to say this to the Government: this Bill is designed for their party advantage and I have little doubt that in the short run it will conduce to that; I have equally no doubt at all that in the long run it will do them much harm, for this reason, that the party opposite have climbed to their great majority and to their positions of power and influence in this country in surprisingly few years because they were borne upwards in their climb to power by the simple, honest faith of their pioneers who believed that they stood for something higher, finer and more idealistic than the older parties. By this Bill the Government have made it perfectly clear that that simplicity and that idealism are gone, and gone for ever. I believe that in making this abundantly clear to their own sincere and honest supporters in the country, the Government have today settled their own fate.
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. Bing: I am sure that hon. Members on both sides are extremely grateful to the hon. Member for Kingston - upon - Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) for joining with others in
  1412
  setting down this Amendment, because he thus enables us at this late stage to nail once and for all the reckless charges of bad faith that so often throughout the discussions of this Measure have been thrown against my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench. It also enables us to look at a perhaps even more interesting question, whether these charges of bad faith were thrown out by the party opposite, carelessly and recklessly, not caring whether they were true or false, or did they—perhaps not all hon. Members opposite but some of them—have a very good suspicion when they were making these charges that they knew that they had no basis in fact whatsoever. I hope we shall have the presence again of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) because he played a considerable part in the Coalition of 1917, and what this Government have done in regard to this Speakers' Conference is exactly the same as that which the Coalition Government did in 1917 in regard to that last Speaker's Conference.
  Let me make the position quite clear. The first charge made against my right hon. Friends is that there is obligation on the leaders of a political party who enter into a Speaker's Conference, to carry out the recommendations of that Conference in every respect and, if they do not do so, they can be charged with a breach of faith. That charge was made again by the hon. Member the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn), and if I do not quote him it is because, while he has great scholastic eminence, perhaps he has not that clarity of speech which is possessed by his right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gains-borough (Captain Crookshank), who put the point rather more shortly and succinctly when he said:
  "First of all, that when there is a Speaker's Conference of this kind, it is implicit, before we go into the Conference, that if recommendations are made, and particularly unanimous recommendations, they will be carried into effect over a period—not reversed in two or three years' time; and that these obligations are the personal, direct responsibility of the people who entered into them—nothing to do with a new Parliament. … That is the technique of the Speaker's Conference, which has grown up; this was not the first."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th March, 1948; Vol. 448, cc. 2116 and 2117.]
  It is quite true that this was not the first Speaker's Conference, it was the

  1413
  second one. Before right hon. Gentlemen opposite referred to the precedents of what took place, did they not look to see what took place at the first Speaker's Conference? Did they not look to see what was the attitude of their own party? Did not the right hon. Member for Woodford look to see what was the attitude of his then party? Did they not consider what their attitude was towards these recommendations of the Speaker's Conference? Because what was decided was exactly the contrary of the case put up by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. What was decided was that it was the right and the duty of Parliament to consider each one of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference separately, without considering any bargain which might or might not have been made. That was exactly the point which was put up by the Minister in charge, by Mr. Walter Long as he was then, and that was the point of view which was upheld by Parliament. He said, in language which might be adopted today by my right hon. Friend the Lord President:
  "The second argument, used outside this House,"—
  because in those days perhaps there was such a high standard of debating that people did not think it worth while using it inside the House—
  "is that there is an agreement over the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference which makes our action not consistent with the rules of the game. … A more outrageous statement could not be made. … I repeat on this occasion that we have an absolute right, in whatever quarter of the House we may sit, to vote as we think fit upon this question."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th July, 1917; Vol. 95, c. 1239.]
  There was, of course, a very definite understanding between the two parties at the Speaker's Conference. In those days there were many Conservative Members who were in favour of proportional representation but who were against the granting of votes to women.
  I might remark in parenthesis, that that shows the degree of Conservative progress. There are now many Conservative Members who are in favour of votes for women, but who are against the granting of proportional representation. These Members entered into an arrangement on the Speaker's Conference. There is no doubt about it. If there is any doubt in the minds of any hon. Members of the Opposition, I will read what the
  1414
  Attorney-General said in regard to the bargain that was made. The Attorney-General was then Lord Birkenhead—quite distinguished in his way. He said:
  "I for my part made up my mind that I would abandon my objection to the question of the vote for women in return for the acceptance by the House of Commons of these proposals as a whole. It was to me a great concession, but one of the things that reconciled me to it was this particular question of proportional representation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th June, 1917; Vol. 94, c. 797.]
  He saw that there was a bargain; he admitted it. But the House decided, quite rightly, that while there was an open admission of a bargain the House was perfectly free, if they so desired, to depart from it.
  Mr. Osbert Peake: I think that, to complete his story of the Speaker's Conference of 1917, the hon. Gentleman ought to inform the House that the Government of the day honoured their obligation by putting into their Bill every single recommendation of the Conference.
  Mr. Bing: Yes. The right hon. Gentleman is quite correct, but they subsequently left it to a free vote of the House to decide whether or not it should be taken out. It comes ill from the right hon. Gentleman, who has just been criticising my right hon. Friend for leaving other questions to a free vote of the House, to cite a parallel in which a free vote was employed.
  It might be of interest to look again at what one or two of these figures who have cropped up so often in these Debates thought about this question of relying on the Speaker's Conference. We have continually had references to Lord Quickswood. He has been produced as the ideal University Member, the one just man—the one man who could form an independent opinion on any question. His name has been coupled with the name of one or two others, including the late Miss Rathbone, as the ideal type of University Member. What did he think on this subject? This is what Lord Quickswood said:
  "The Bill NN as based on an elaborate arrangement entered into by the Speaker's Conference. That Conference was called by the Attorney-General, 'That assembly of patient and sagacious men.' I shall call it rather 'that ominous consultation of doves and serpents,' which produced the present Bill. … The Bill was based upon it. That basis was destroyed. It is certain to have all

  1415
  sorts of other effects on it, which really should be a warning against this whole procedure of basing your action on hole and corner conference. … I earnestly hope that we shall not be drawn into a continuance of all that procedure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th June, 1917; Vol. 94, c. 1492.]
  It is not my job to defend Lord Quickswood, but I can only suppose that if he thought that his authority was now being evoked to defend the Speaker's Conference, it would make him turn—in another place.
  The really interesting point is not whether Lord Quickswood was right or wrong, but what was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford doing at this time? That is why I am so sorry that he is not at present in the House. I feel that if charges of this sort are made even right hon. Members ought to be here to listen to criticism of their remarks. I should like to ask him, and give him an opportunity perhaps to interrupt and reply, why he has waited over 30 years to make this protest. If it was wrong to disregard a bargain made at the Speaker's Conference in 1917, why did he not do it then? Why has he waited until 1948 to discover that a constitutional error has been made?
  Mr. Shurmer: Because he is not the boss.
  Mr. Bing: He had an excellent opportunity. He was not at that time in the Government. He was, so to speak, as someone has said of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, an influential back bencher in a brief interlude as potential Opposition. In fact, he had just ceased being Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster himself. He was present in the House. HANSARD records that he was asking, very properly, at that moment, questions about the necessity and the arrangements for secret Sessions. It still leaves the mystery why he did not at that time protest. Did he not think that a departure from a bargain made at the Speaker's Conference was a great constitutional wrong? If he did not think that then, when did he come to the conclusion that it would be a great constitutional wrong? Was it just when the Labour Party came into power, or was it at some period in the interval that his views changed? The House is entitled to the advice of the right hon. Gentleman on this matter.
  1416
  Really, is not the truth of this matter that the abolition of the franchise has always been a party matter? It has always been a party matter, because the party opposite has always opposed it. Any attempt to extend the franchise has always been opposed by the party opposite and, therefore, there is no particular point in having a Conference to discuss it. Nobody knows that better than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford, because—
  Mr. Peake: Surely the hon. Gentleman must remember that we did extend the franchise in 1928.
  Mr. Shurmer: Public opinion forced the change.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Without a Speaker's Conference.
  Mr. Bing: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that his party refused to allow a Speaker's Conference on that occasion. I say again that I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford is not here. It has always been agreed in this House that redistribution is a technical matter and, therefore, a matter for which it is proper for Mr. Speaker to take part. It can be seen in that sense that Mr. Speaker is the Chairman of the Boundary Commission. The technicalities of redistribution have always been regarded as a matter on which it is possible to have an all-party, and non-party, agreement. That is why, when in 1928 Mr. Baldwin was discussing this very matter, he said that there was no point in having a Speaker's Conference, and, what is more, Mr. Speaker himself said that he would not like to preside once party conflict had been resumed. Where there is a question of redistribution, then Mr. Speaker would come in.
  What has happened here is that all these reforms—the removal of the university seats and the removal of the City of London seats—spring from an alteration in the franchise, the abolishing of two votes for one person and the granting of a single vote to one person. Once we make that change then it is impossible to continue either the university or the City of London seats, because the electors have disappeared. I understand that the case in regard to the City of London is that

  1417
  the worst thing that could happen from the point of view of the party opposite would be that the Members for the City of London should be elected by the inhabitants. That, they consider, would be grossly improper. There was no more need for a Speaker's Conference on this question than there was need for a Speaker's Conference 40 years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman supported with his vote and his voice a Measure to abolish the university franchise and, thus, the university seats. Indeed, the only reason why we are debating this question today is that, in another place, the Measure supported by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford was turned down. We can, on another occasion, deal with the views of the right hon. Gentleman on the conduct of another place on that particular Measure. The only point to be made clear is that a Speaker's Conference has never taken place in any circumstances when the only issue was the question of the extension of the franchise.
  If I may turn briefly to the second charge, it is that this House has disregarded the findings of the Boundary Commission. It has always been agreed that it was the duty of the House so to do if it so desired. My right hon. Friend the Lord President has been quoted on a number of occasions, and perhaps I may quote him again. He was speaking, not on behalf of this Party alone, but on behalf of the Party opposite, in the days of the Coalition, when introducing the Measure which set up the Boundary Commission. My right hon. Friend said:
  "… at all stages of the procedure Parliament must be on top … Therefore, Parliament will settle the principles, Parliament will deal with the recommendations of the Boundary Commissioners as modified or not—"
  obviously, by the Government—
  "—and submitted by the Government of the day, and at no stage will there be any situation which is not entirely under Parliamentary control. I am sure the House will attach importance to that."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th October, 1944; Vol. 403, c. 1614.]
  That was a speech made not only on behalf of hon. Members on this side of the House, but on behalf of hon. Members opposite, and now it is said that this Bill ought to be rejected because the Lord President carried out a principle agreed to by both sides. There may be something to be said for that in some cases, but
  1418
  this does not seem to me to be one of them.
  If, in fact, it was to be the criterion that no reform should take place which was not in accordance with the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, we should still have exactly the same distribution and exactly the same electoral law as we had in 1887, because the only way in which the redistribution of 1918 could be got through was by vote of the House to disregard, first, the views of the Speaker's Conference on this most important question of Proportional Representation, and, secondly and even more important, the views of the Boundary Commissioners, not in regard to a few constituencies, but in regard to 100 seats. What happened then? There were instructions given to the Boundary Commission and they proceeded with their work. Parliament decided, contrary to the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, to give a new set of instructions which affected 100 seats. I think we are right to ask why, in that case, was there no protest from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford. If it was wrong in 35 cases, as he said, why is it not wrong in 100? What is the difference?
  This, after all, is a serious question. Nobody in the House can allow the credit and the good name of this country to be attacked with impunity. I am sorry that the senior Burgess for Cambridge University took the opportunity of a Debate on this subject to denigrate his own country. There is no more serious act of a politician than to make a charge of ill-faith against the Government which he is not prepared to come here and justify. Nothing can do the credit of this country more harm than these entirely ill-founded and unjustifiable charges. If, in fact, I am right, and this Government has done nothing more than was done in 1918, then, at least, the right hon. Gentleman, or one of his supporters who added his name to the Amendment, should get up and explain to us the difference in circumstances between 1918 and today.
  6.34 p.m
  Mr. Henry Strauss: I am grateful for the opportunity to intervene in support of the Amendment which my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) placed on the Order Paper, and which

  1419
  also bears my name. I wonder whether the Government altogether welcome the speech which has just been made by the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing). He introduced a doctrine regarding the Speaker's Conference that not a single Member of the Government has yet put forward—the argument that it does not matter in the least what the Speaker's Conference decided, that it might just as well not have been held, and that there was no point in it whatever. That is the doctrine of the hon. Member for Hornchurch.
  Mr. Bing rose—
  Mr. Strauss: No, I shall not give way to the hon. Member until he has heard more of my argument. If he then desires to interrupt, I will give way, as the House knows is my custom.
  I wish to make clear certain very important matters. Of course, this House is not bound. Nobody has ever said that this House is bound. The people who are bound by honour are His Majesty's Ministers and the party which supports them. I am going to make quite clear what my charge is against His Majesty's Ministers and against the honour of the party which they purport to lead. Of course, this House is not bound. Back benchers opposite, if they disagree with their Front Bench when their Front Bench is acting honourably, are entitled to throw out the Government. What they are not entitled to do is to claim that they are honourable men in demanding that their leaders shall act dishonourably. Nobody has ever disputed the question—[Laughter.] I would remind hon. Members opposite that dishonour is not funny. In any case it has not hitherto been so regarded. If hon. Members opposite laugh at charges of dishonour to which they are unable to reply, it will not be my party that is injured.
  I believe that this Measure marks the lowest depth to which even this Government has yet sunk. I believe the injuries which it does fall into two classes—injuries that are remediable and injuries that are irremediable. I believe in common with the Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University and the Hebdomadal Council of that university and with other distinguished men from other universities, that this proposal is injurious to the universities. I am quite certain that it is injurious
  1420
  to this House, but I do not believe that either of those injuries is the most important injury that it does, because a wiser Government can recreate what a foolish Government is seeking to destroy.
  Even a temporary interruption of an institution that has enriched the House of Commons for three and a half centuries and has won great praise from the admirers of our Constitution in foreign countries—even an interruption of such an institution is distressing to those who love the continuity of our history and have some knowledge of that wherein the greatness of our country consists. Needless to say, that which troubles the intelligent delights the fool. The fact that hon. Members opposite are destroying a characteristic invention of English political genius is one of the things that gives those hon. Members a special pleasure, who can never forgive their country for being great. I have spoken of those injuries which I believe to be remediable. I believe that the injury to the universities and the injury to this House will be remedied. The injury which I believe to be irremediable is the damage that is done by the constitutional outrage and breach of faith by His Majesty's Ministers and the injury to the standards of our public life which they involve. That, I believe, no subsequent restoration of the university franchise can wholly remedy.
  I want to put the constitutional argument which I regard as of great importance, but which I can put the more briefly because of the brilliant speech of my hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) this afternoon. He spoke as a great student of the Constitution, and I speak perhaps primarily as a lawyer in this part of my speech. I think that every constitutional lawyer and every student of our institutions knows that the most striking and important feature of the British Constitution is the omnicompetence of Parliament. That means that Parliament can change the Constitution of the country by exactly the same legislative procedure as suffices for the least important and most transient Act of Parliament. There is, perhaps, no other great Constitution of which that is true. Every student is familiar with the various difficult and special procedures needed under other Constitutions for making constitutional change.

  1421
  The fact that we have an omnicompetent Parliament gives great advantages of flexibility and power as long as we are wise. But that very fact constitutes its characteristic danger. The only means by which we have avoided those dangers hitherto is by the observance of certain conventions. One of those conventions is that we should avoid radical alteration of the composition and constitution of the House of Commons except at longish intervals and with a maximum of consent.
  Mr. Bing: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman deny that in 1917 Parliament disregarded the decision of the Speaker's Conference, and merely by a majority of nine votes?
  Mr. Strauss: What majority of nine votes?
  Mr. Bing: A majority of nine votes in this House.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Does not the doctrine of the omnicompetence of Parliament which the hon. and learned Gentleman is seeking to advocaten mean that one Parliament cannot bind aother, and is not his argument tending to show that one Parliament can bind another? Is not his argument contradictory?
  Mr. Strauss: I must not be diverted too much. The hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hector Hughes) is quite wrong in thinking that I was advocating the omnicompetence of Parliament. I was merely stating that that was the most striking feature of our Constitution, and I was coming to the point with which I think the hon. and learned Gentleman wishes me to deal. As to the details of the 1917 matter, I should prefer not to deal with it without looking it up and making myself completely familiar with it. I believe that it constitutes no exception whatsoever to the doctrine which I am about to describe and which I advocate.
  I say that it is quite obvious—and all great parties of the State have hitherto agreed—that we should seek the maximum of agreement in bringing about constitutional change. Otherwise, if it could be brought about merely by a bare majority in this House, it is quite obvious that we should never have achieved that continuity which has been the prime condition of the fame, the efficiency and the
  1422
  long survival of our Parliamentary institutions. The modern method has been to seek such agreement through a Speaker's Conference. I am not saying that agreement can always be secured. There have been extensions of the franchise which were not secured by agreement but by a General Election fought on the specific change. But the modern method has been to seek agreement by a Speaker's Conference.
  In the case of the present Speaker's Conference, agreement was not only sought but obtained. Not only were all parties represented, but individual figures, or figures representing small minorities, important in our Parliamentary life, took part also, with the result, of course, that the Conservatives who had a great preponderance of the then House of Commons had not the same proportion, quite rightly, of the members of the Speaker's Conference. It has been suggested that the Speaker's Conference was not intended to bind a future Parliament; but, of course, as has been pointed out by the senior Burgess for Cambridge University, if it were only the Parliament which formed that Conference which was concerned, there would not be a Speaker's Conference at all. There would be no point in it whatsoever, if the decisions were not intended to last for a long period. That is the whole point of a Speaker's Conference.
  In this case the fact was made amply clear by the express terms of the recommendations which that Conference made. Not only was every member of the then Coalition Government himself bound—and, of course, the Socialist Party had large representation in that Government—but the Socialists who were not in the Government were led at that time by Mr. Pethick-Lawrence as he then was, and he accepted and commended the merits of the unanimous recommendation for the retention of the university franchise, and advocated it as a solution that should last.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Will not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that any such agreement by one set of Ministers to bind another set of Ministers in a later Parliament would be completely ultra vires and unconstitutional?
  Mr. Strauss: I always think that the hon. and learned Gentleman would be

  1423
  much wiser if he would intervene at the right point. I am about to deal with that very question. The hon. and learned Gentleman could not be more wrong. At least, nobody else could be more wrong; I do not like to anticipate his further efforts. The hon. Members who came to that agreement were and are absolutely bound in honour. It has nothing to do with the powers of Parliament. Of course, Parliament can do anything, but I am talking of the honour of Ministers and the honour of members of the party supporting those Ministers. They, the back benchers, attained power, enjoying the benefit of every arrangement that their then leaders had made, and the express acknowledgment that they were bound in honour to carry out the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference was made not only in the last Parliament but, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said, in this. Let me invite hon. Members to consider this very simple question.
  Mr. H. Morrison: The hon. and learned Member has made some very serious and sweeping allegations and has said we entered into express commitments. Will he quote those express commitments?
  Mr. Strauss: I did not say "express commitments." What I do say is that the Speaker's Conference made certain recommendations nemine contradicente, among those being the recommendation, sufficient for my purpose, to retain the university vote. Some of the recommendations of that Speaker's Conference were, as was shown by the terms of the Report, to be carried out in the last Parliament and some were to be carried out in this Parliament. By declarations in both Parliaments the Lord President of the Council and others have made it absolutely clear that they thought that they were in honour bound to carry out the unanimous recommendations of the Speaker's Conference.
  Mr. Morrison: What are these declarations which have been made? I would like the hon. and learned Member to quote them.
  Mr. Strauss: They were all quoted, I think without exception, by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake), who is to wind up this Debate, when he was speaking at an earlier stage of this Bill. I do not want to
  1424
  weary the House by reading all the same declarations, but of the declarations in the present House it is sufficient to rely on two—that which was quoted by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition this afternoon and the declaration made, in replying to the Address on the King's Speech, by the Lord Chancellor in another place. These are quite enough for the present purpose.
  Mr. Bing rose—
  Mr. Strauss: I really do not want to detain so many who wish to speak by yielding too often. I ask hon. Members, in whatever quarter of the House they sit, to think of this. It is quite obvious that in a Speaker's Conference there are many decisions which may be reached by way of honourable compromise. If one party, having accepted the benefit of every unanimous recommendation which it regarded as advantageous to itself, is subsequently to turn round and reject unanimous recommendations which it then says it dislikes, but to which the utmost importance is attached by the other great party in the State, I say it is quite obvious that never again will it be possible for parties to enter a Speaker's Conference in the hope of deciding constitutional changes by agreement.
  What must be the consequence of that? The consequence of that must be the liability to a constitutional upheaval as the sequel to every General Election. I say there is no one but the enemies of our democracy who will have any reason to rejoice by reason of this precedent. I want to prove up to the hilt my allegation with regard to dishonour. On this particular issue the Secretary of State for Scotland has intervened not on one day but on three days. On three separate occasions the Secretary of State for Scotland has intervened to express the view that the bargain has rightly been broken by the Government on two grounds. The first ground was that university seats had returned my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and myself at Elections to this Parliament, and the second ground was that my right hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) and my right hon. Friend the senior Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) had frequently voted against the Government.

  1425
  Those were the reasons given by the Secretary of State for Scotland for the fact that what he himself described as a bargain was no longer to be operative. The hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) threw over the Secretary of State for Scotland the other night. I thought myself that these interventions of the Secretary of State for Scotland touched the lowest depths of intellectual and moral degradation which I had ever heard in this House.
  What is involved in these statements? First of all, we are asked to believe that my hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Cambridge University, sitting on the Speaker's Conference, announced that never again would he stand for Parliament, which is rather a tall order. Secondly, we are asked to believe that a party candidature against Independents was wrong at the last General Election. It so happens that Oxford University was represented by two Independents, so Professor G. D. H. Cole stood against them, and the first of his supporters was the present Prime Minister. I agree on this, and almost only on this, with the hon. Member for East Coventry: it is impossible to defend the Secretary of State for Scotland. He has, however, blurted out the truth as to why these seats are to be abolished. Nobody would suppose him capable of the intellectual effort needed for any prevarication. Those are, in fact, the reasons why the seats are to be abolished.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for East Coventry has left because, in his speech the other day, he made it quite clear that he regarded this question of the honour of Ministers as a rather unimportant side issue. Let me quote two passages. After throwing over the Secretary of State for Scotland, in which I agree with him, he said:
  "It would be outrageous if the Ministers did not accept their high obligation, which is to represent the movement which sent them here and the vast movement of public opinion which has occurred since the Speaker's Conference.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th June, 1948; Vol. 452, c. 192.]
  Later, he said—[Interruption.] I am sorry if hon. Members object to the manner in which I am quoting. I am reading out each sentence. I will read a passage further on, and we shall see if hon. Members like that better:
  "It is really a side issue, at this stage of the Bill's progress, to raise the precise
  1426
  behaviour of individual Ministers who were placed in an extremely difficult situation by the fact that they had made a pledge in certain conditions, and to say that when entirely different conditions came within a few months they should be made to stick to that pledge."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th June, 1948; Vol. 452, c. 194.]
  If hon. Members and right hon. Members like that code of morality, I do not envy them their consciences, nor do I envy the prospect of the survival of democracy in this country if any great party is long allowed to hold those views and to get away with them.
  It is not only a question of the honour of Ministers: it is a question of the honour of the party. Before I leave this question, I must deal with a point mentioned by the Lord President of the Council in his frivolous speech on this subject on the Committee stage. He said:
  "I should be willing to submit to any impartial body that the Opposition had not proved their case that the Government are guilty of a breach of faith or that the proceedings of the Speaker's Conference in the last Parliament or the proceedings of the last Government in any way bind the present House of Commons."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th March, 1948; Vol. 448, c. 1926.]
  Nobody ever said that they bind the present House of Commons. We say that they bind Ministers and bind those whom the Ministers lead. The offer, if it were meant to be an offer, of the Lord President of the Council was at once accepted and welcomed by the senior Burgess for Oxford University. I hope we shall still see whether it is true that the Lord President of the Council is willing to leave the matter to any impartial tribunal.
  There is only one other thing I want to say. I was reproved at one stage of these proceedings, not today, by an hon. and learned Member who said that I had not exhibited academic detachment. I agree entirely, and I welcome that tribute. Neither the universities I represent, nor any other universities, nor their graduates, nor their undergraduates, nor their Parliamentary representatives feel in the least detached as they watch the ruin of their country under the maladministration of hon. and right hon. Members opposite. Universities I believe to be unique and glorious institutions, and I believe it is because they are such institutions that the young, as well as the graduates, recognise the source of their greatness, and resent what is being

  1427
  done to them now by this colossal breach of faith. I do not doubt for one moment that right hon. Gentlemen opposite can lead their obedient supporters into the Lobby tonight to give them a great majority. They will not, however, be voting that the Government is not guilty of great dishonour: they will be voting in favour of the proposition that dishonour does not matter.
  7.2 p.m.
  Mr. Medland: I listened with some interest to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss), but I find some difficulty in understanding his declaration of a theory of democracy which gives two votes to a man or a woman because he or she has been to a university and only one to a man who has spent his lifetime in creating the wealth of the nation. I cannot understand what is meant by democracy in that sense. It is because for some 30 years I have been battling in the country for what I regard as true democracy—and that is an old standard that was defined in many speeches in this House in times gone by, the standard of "one man, one vote, one value" that I so profoundly disagree with the representations and arguments that have been made by the representatives of the universities here in consideration of this Bill.
  I listened with great interest to the two opening speeches of this Debate. We were informed in the peroration of the Home Secretary that we had drawn nearer to the idea of "one vote, one value." The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), after declaring that the first plank in the Conservative Party's policy—the first we have heard of in this House—was the restoration of university seats, said that what he wanted was a better, freer and truer expression of the people's will. So, after all the wordy arguments, it would seem that right hon. Gentlemen on the two Front Benches are after very much the same thing.
  One of the arguments used by the Opposition, and expressed in very strong language—some of the strongest I have heard in this Parliament—is that this Bill gives an unfair advantage to the Labour Party; and so we have been charged with cheating. I submit that this Bill does
  1428
  nothing of the sort. Considering the South-Western part of the country as a yardstick, I find that this Bill makes Parliamentary representation safer for the Tories than ever before. My complaint against the Bill, and the reason I shall not be able to support it on Third Reading is that it does that very thing—it gives an undue advantage to the people who live in county divisions as distinct from the people who live in county boroughs or urban areas with large populations. The test, so far as we are concerned, is the fact that in the Western counties the average number of electors required to elect Members in the vastly more numerous Conservative constituencies is something in the region of 50,000 electors, whereas in the industrial areas, particularly in the Cities of Bristol and Plymouth, the numbers of electors required to elect one Member are anything between 65,000 and 75,000—that is, in areas where the Labour Party is stronger. It is very curious that in the conurbations the populations happen to be Labour Party supporters, but that in the county divisions, most of the electors happen to be Tories. Yet we have had all this argument today about the disadvantages to the other side of the House. I want to object to that very strongly.
  One other objection I have is to the fact that no consideration seems to have been given to the position of areas which, at the time when the figures were set, had lost their populations temporarily owing to enemy action. The result is that the city which I have the honour to represent is disfranchised, and that on a basis of population which could not live in the city because there were not sufficient houses after the bombing. I make my strongest protest that, in spite of the fact that the House indicated that it thought a great measure of injustice had been done to my city by its being thus disfranchised, the Home Secretary has not seen fit to make provision for the adequate representation of the people already living there. As a matter of fact, the electors already there inside the city would give us above the average for all the county divisions immediately surrounding us. I cannot understand why the Home Secretary urges the doctrine that one vote should have one value, when, because a man lives on one side of the river, he is in a constituency that has 48,000 electors,

  1429
  while another on the other side of the river is in a constituency of 75,000 electors. I make my strongest protest against this inequality. I hope that there may yet be time for the Home Secretary to put right this most glaring injustice, and to restore to something like fair representation in this House one of the oldest cities in the country—a city with great historical interests, and a city which has contributed to the well-being of this nation.
  7.11 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smiles: I would like to say a word or two as to the number of Members of Parliament from Northern Ireland and their reduction from 13 to 12. In the Boundary Commission's Report for Northern Ireland, the Commissioners pointed out that 71,000 electors were required to return a Member from Northern Ireland and only 57,000 to return a Member from Great Britain. We have there a population of 1,300,000, and when this Bill is passed, we shall return only 12 Members to Westminster. Belfast alone, at the present moment, has a population of 500,000, and returns only four Members. It is expected that the boundaries are to be extended within a year or two. If the boundaries were extended in Belfast and if we were given another Member, I do not think that anyone can tell me what party would be returned to this House for the new constituency. At present, in Belfast alone, there are three Unionists and one Socialist returned, but it is possible that even Nationalists may be returned if there are five Members.
  We Unionists never wanted a Parliament in Ireland. We have always fought against it. We have wanted to remain at Westminster, and we still want to remain at Westminster, in spite of all its faults. We honour, value and appreciate being represented here, and we feel keenly the reduction of our numbers from 13 to 12. At the present time there are 13 Members for Northern Ireland—10 Unionists, one Socialist and two Nationalists. I cannot speak for the Nationalists, as they often say that they are far more drawn to a Parliament in Dublin than to one in London, but I believe that the best representation for Northern Ireland would still be a university seat.
  I was questioned on a speech which I made on the Second Reading about the
  1430
  smallness of the numbers of graduates at Queen's University. That is quite true, but the numbers are increasing every year. It is a small university but a very active one. It has been said that the most valuable exports of Northern Ireland are not ships—I was at a launching yesterday of a new aircraft carrier in Belfast—and not linen, ropes or tobacco, but our graduates and our doctors. They are working all over the world. Only yesterday I was speaking to the Vice-Chancellor of Queen's University about the activities of the university. He pointed out to me that at the present time there are many African and Indian graduates at Queen's University, and they are by no means the least valuable, the least hardworking or the least distinguished members of that university. Indeed, the Vice-Chancellor had nothing but good words to say about them. I would like to feel that when those undergraduates qualify and go back to their own homes they will still feel that they have an interest in their old university and that they are drawn to this country through the representation of their university at Westminster.
  Dr. Morgan: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give us the total number of voters on the Belfast University register, and the total number who voted at the last election?
  Sir W. Smiles: I am sorry that I cannot give the number who voted at the last election. I believe that the number of voters today is just over 6,000, but I would not like to take an oath on that point. A knowledge of history is a thing which every Member of Parliament should have. An hon. Member said that most of us between the ages of 16 and 24 were too busy earning our living to be able to study history. From some of the speeches which I have heard today it is not only graduates who have made a study of history and who are able to quote the intimate details of how some charming countess influenced the Front Bench and influenced this or that policy of Government. I can quite understand the ambition of people now on the Front Bench, because that sort of luck never came my way.
  The question of motor cars has been raised a good many times in this Debate. Like most Members, I have driven myself

  1431
  in several elections. In Northern Ireland, it is more difficult than ever to get voters to the poll because the bus routes run direct from the country districts to the capital city, Belfast, and the bus is often of little use to get electors to the poll. I think that the concession which the Home Secretary spoke about today concerning motor cars will be a valuable one. I have driven in many elections, but I have never asked voters who have got into my motor car for whom they were going to vote. Of course, I admit that the car was marked with the candidate's name or colours. I understood the Home Secretary to say today that any car could take voters to the poll legally, provided that it was not marked in any way and that no pressure was put on the voter as to how he was to vote. I think that parts of this Bill are good. I think that some of the constituencies were out of proportion—the smaller constituencies in relation to the larger ones—but I must say that I regret the abolition of the university seats and the reduction of the representation of Northern Ireland.
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. Spence: I do not propose to devote much of my time to the general attack on this Bill, other than to associate myself with all that has been said on this side of the House about its bad points. There are one or two particular points which I should like to raise as to the effect of the Bill in respect of Clauses 7 and 33 on voters in Scotland. When the Bill came before the House on Committee stage, Clause 33 was not then a part of it. Clause 7 was discussed only in very rough outline, as the Clause which sets up or empowers the setting up of new polling stations. I was interested at the beginning of the Debate to hear the Home Secretary say that any difficulty that might occur in transport through the restriction of motor cars would be overcome by the setting up of additional polling stations. This is a very important point, and I raise it because I want to make sure that the Government realise the extent to which additional polling stations will have to be set up in the rural areas.
  In my own constituency of Central Aberdeen we had about 40 or 50 polling stations at the last election. If we were
  1432
  to allow those constituents to work on a smaller travelling basis, of four or five miles instead of seven and 12, and 14 in some cases, we should require an additional 70 or 80 polling stations. I should like an assurance from the Home Secretary now, if he will give it, that where the appropriate recommendations are made by 30 people for an additional polling station to be set up, that polling station will be set up, because the Clause as drafted is permissive, in that it says:
  "the Secretary of State shall consider the representation and may, if he thinks fit"
  set up additional polling stations. I do not know if we can get an assurance from the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, if he is to speak later in this Debate. It is a matter of vital importance, in view of the withdrawal of certain motoring facilities which we had at the last election. What has been said today about Clause 33 does not coincide with what is in the Bill. The Home Secretary, when moving the Third Reading today, said that the private individual could drive a friend, or pick up a friend and take him to the poll, as long as he did not solicit for a particular candidate. He used the words "a particular candidate," and my difficulty is that those words are not in the Clause, which at the moment says that one shall not drive someone to the poll
  "with a view to promoting or procuring the election of a candidate."
  If a person drives someone to the poll he is obviously helping to procure the election of "a" candidate, and unless the word "particular" can be inserted the interpretation which the Home Secretary gave today is incorrect. I wonder whether he would look into this matter, and give an assurance that the Clause will be corrected in this respect, perhaps in another place?
  Turning to the general aspects of the Bill, and the feelings that I have in being asked to vote on its Third Reading, I am chiefly impressed by the time-table of the planning, and the way in which this Bill was presented to the House. It came along bit by bit. After the university seats had been hacked off, we were told about the 17 additional borough constituencies; then there was the new Clause 33 regarding the use of motor cars; we had the Bill one little bit after another. On the Report stage we were told how desirable some such provision as that contained in Clause

  1433
  33 was because it had been mooted in 1931. Surely, if it were desirable it should have been in the original Bill. I am convinced that the Clause was merely put in as an act of surrender by the Minister to the irresponsible, partisan and vindictive Members who sit behind him.
  7.23 p.m.
  Mr. Collins: I should like to support the plea of the hon. Member for Central Aberdeen (Mr. Spence) for the most generous interpretation of the regulations providing for polling stations in rural areas. I hope the Home Secretary can give us some reassurance on that point, which I regard as one of the most valuable and important provisions of the Bill; it is one which will go a long way towards assisting in that equality of voting which the Bill intends to provide.
  I should also like to congratulate the hon. Member on being one of the, if not the, first speaker from the Opposition Benches today who has not devoted almost all of his speech to a consideration of university representation. Throughout the whole passage of this Bill one of the most painful features to me has been that Member after Member representing the universities has spoken to plead a special cause. I admit that in a Bill of this kind inevitably there must be a good deal of special pleading, because different Members are particularly affected. One quite understands it. But this afternoon we have had three speeches—ranging from the heroics of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) to the painful pedantry of the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn)—none of which concentrated on stating an objective view, but all of which were infused with a kind of personal bitterness which abrogated all possibility of any reasoned view of the situation.
  The hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities outdid all his colleagues in his description of the Bill, by saying that this Bill, which apparently will deprive him of his present seat, is the lowest depth to which this Government has yet sunk. I feel that remarks of that kind, and of the kind made by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) with regard to the personal integrity of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary are not merely totally uncalled for, but
  1434
  show how completely the real essence of this Bill is misjudged by the Opposition. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames said that Members on the Government Front Bench had lost completely the simplicity and idealism of the Socialist pioneers. Well, some of them at least, are Socialist pioneers.
  In my submission, the real essence of this Bill lies in the core, which the Home Secretary quite clearly defined as embodying the principle, "one man, one vote, one value." No one would pretend—and certainly I do not—that after this Bill becomes law every vote will have an equal value; but within its terms of reference, and in so far as it is humanly possible in a constantly changing electorate, the various provisions of this Bill will provide that. It has been said, rightly, that there is no finality in democracy. And there can be no finality in a Bill of this kind. Things are constantly changing, and there must be constant and continual adjustment; but at least the basic principles which have governed the various decisions in this Bill are sound, and should not in any case be altered.
  There has been a good deal of criticism of the redivision of certain constituencies, and of the provision of 17 extra seats with the denial of five additional seats demanded by the Conservative Party. Yet in every case these same principles apply and the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames, who said that an undeniable case had been put forward for the five seats, conveniently forget that an almost identical if not better, case was put forward in respect of Plymouth, and was also denied. So the treatment in that respect is quite equal. Similarly, the hon. Member spoke of three Socialist Members formerly being returned with a total of only 69,000 electors; but hon. Members opposite have made speech after speech demanding that we should continue the iniquitious practice of sending to this House two Conservative Members for the City of London from about 5,000 electors. There is no consistency in such arguments.
  If university graduates had been here at the various stages of this Debate, and heard the speeches made by their representatives, then, quite apart from the question of principle, and quite apart from whether they believed that "one man, one vote" was a right principle,

  1435
  after hearing their representatives they would have said that in any case we were right in the decision we were taking in regard to the university vote.
  The same principle applies to the business vote. It is difficult to understand how Members opposite can continue to defend the business vote. It is possible—and this has happened in my own case—to have six different votes in respect of six different business premises. That kind of thing is indefensible. Once it is admitted that the business vote must go, then there is no possibility of continuing with the City of London constituency in its present form. The same principle of endeavouring to give equality of treatment is responsible for the new regulations in regard to cars. I think that what hurts the Conservative Party most is that the provisions in this Bill are fair to everyone, in so far as it is possible for them to be so, and that the privileges which they have for so long enjoyed are now going. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) gave fair warning that if the Tory Party should secure a majority at the next election, one of the first things they would do would be to restore those very privileges and inequalities which have stood in the way so long of equality in voting power as between the electors.
  It has been said several times that the steps which have been taken will militate against the Labour Party because they violate some essential principle of equity. It is this principle of reasonable equality which hon. Members opposite sneer at. Whenever one of their special privileges is done away with, they say it is unfair and we are subjected to abuse of this kind. I believe that the provisions in this Bill, within the terms of reference and within the limits of the lowest and highest numbers of electorate in a constituency, ensures that all electors have an equal chance of casting their vote, and that the votes will be approximately equal in value. The hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) has called this Measure a "Representation of the Labour Party Bill." But anything which makes for justice must improve Socialist representation in this House, and since this Bill does make for justice by giving the people a reasonable and equitable chance in exercising their franchise, it improves, just as progress in
  1436
  education improves, but not in any unfair way, Socialist representation in this House.
  All that has been said by Members opposite has been in favour of the preservation of those things which they have enjoyed for so long, and these are the things, the business vote, the university vote and matters of that kind, which have interfered with reasonable justice in these matters and are quite indefensible on any basis of fairness. No one who represents a university has attempted at any time to justify the university vote, but the right hon. Gentleman, despite all this, says that the first step the Opposition will take, if they are returned at the next election, will be to ensure that these privileges are returned. I submit that that exposes the whole case of the Opposition and the purpose of this Amendment. Because I believe that the Government have attempted in all respects to do justice, and that this Bill will result in a great improvement in the exercise of the franchise, I shall gladly support it.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Vane: The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) need not fear that he will have to listen to another speech about the universities, but in defence of my hon. Friends I would point out, having listened to three speeches from university Members, that none of them deserves the epithet of "painful pedantry." I am wondering what sort of painful, pedantic speech we might have heard from the hon. Member for Taunton if this Bill had happened to abolish his constituency.
  Mr. Collins: If this Bill had abolished my constituency, I should not have spoken at all. The position is that my constituency is unchanged—it has not been altered by one vote.
  Mr. Vane: After that claim to modesty, perhaps the hon. Member will agree with what I have to say about representation in the rural areas. The Home Secretary claimed, rather too highly I thought, that under this Bill he had improved the possibilities of electors in rural areas being able to record their votes. I agree that the provision in Clause 7 that in normal circumstances a returning officer will establish a polling station in each parish is an advance over the previous discretionary powers, but I do not think that that is

  1437
  the entire answer. I do not wish to be too tedious about this, but I will give an example from my own constituency. We have 100 rural parishes in Westmorland. At the last election we had 65 polling stations, and in future will have more under the provisions of this Bill. But I say that this provision will not be the entire answer because we have parishes that are 12 miles long and even longer and with poor communications. I can give one example of a farm which is 35 miles from a polling station, unless one chooses to walk a number of miles over a very rough footpath across the fells.
  I see that under this Bill special concessions are made if an elector is expected to have to make a journey by sea or air, but I submit that some of the journeys which people in remote districts have to make by land are just as deserving of concessions. To show that I am not exaggerating in any way, I noticed that when the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster carne into my constituency for his Whitsun constitutional and walked along the Pennines with his aides-de-camp, he thought it was such a manly feat that it ought to be recorded by a troop of photographers.
  The establishment of polling stations in each parish is not the real answer. The real answer is the intelligent use of modern transport. What little the right hon. Gentleman has given with one hand, he seems to have take away with the other. I wonder whether Clause 32 is really going to be sufficiently understood for anyone to dare to use a car at all. I am wondering, too, if my relations with my prospective opponent at the next election are as good as those with my opponent at the last election, whether we might share cars. And then, if we use a car in some of these remote districts with two labels, whether it could be described as being employed to aid the return of a candidate, and if not whether it will count as half a car or no car at all. If we are to be limited as strictly as this Clause appears to limit us in an area like Westmorland, a very large number of persons in remote areas will find it a great deal worse to get to the polling station than it was before. I would like to ask whether it is possible under the Bill for mobile polling stations to be set up. That might be the answer in districts such as ours. Nowadays we are so used to having everything
  1438
  delivered on our doorsteps that surely it is not asking too much that perhaps the poll might be brought to us, instead of compelling us to walk to the poll.
  Some Members have referred to the Speaker's Conference of 1918. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has refreshed his mind as to what took place in 1653—a very important date in history—when a Representation of the People Bill was being considered? On the occasion of its Third Reading, that Bill was thrown out not as I hope this Bill will be tonight, by Members voting for the reasoned Amendment, but by actual, physical force. Oliver Cromwell and a group of soldiers entered the Chamber towards the end of the Debate, and after he had bandied words with your predecessor, Mr. Speaker, and made rude remarks about the Mace, the House was cleared of all Members, and nothing more was heard of that Bill. Afterwards, by a Resolution of the House, the entry in the journals was expunged. I hope that tonight there will be no need for any physical force, but that we shall be able to defeat this Bill by mustering sufficient Members in the Lobby to do so. I also hope that the Debate tonight, and the Debates on previous stages, as recorded in HANSARD, will be extremely widely read so that the public will be able to realise the strange twistings and turnings which have led the right hon. Gentleman to his place on the Treasury Bench tonight.
  Perhaps I may be excused if I claim a special interest in the incident which took place on that day in April, 1653, because an ancestor of my name found himself in the position of the Home Secretary today, facing very similar charges and endeavouring to pilot through the House a Bill which was represented at that time, as this Bill is considered today, as an attempt to favour the Government party. The majority party was then just a Rump, a timid Rump, which had lost its popular backing. There were the same strange meetings, charges and countercharges of bargains made and bargains broken. I have looked up the part my ancestor played then and although I am not proud of it, I think the charges against him were a great deal less well-founded than those we are bringing against the Home Secretary today. When Oliver Cromwell came in to put an end to the

  1439
  Long Parliament and Sir Harry Vane rose in his place and said:
  "This is not honest, Sir. Yea, it is against morality and common honesty."
  I think I am justified in using those same words tonight to the Home Secretary: "This is not honest, Sir. Yea, it is against morality and common honesty." From that moment the political fortunes of Sir Harry Vane declined; he wended his way through various prisons and ended his days on Tower Hill. While the death penalty remains part of the law of this land, the Home Secretary should beware.
  7.45 p.m.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: I would like to say a few words in reply to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss). If he were here at the moment I am sure he would agree that he who makes a charge must prove it. That is true before any tribunal. It is certainly true where the charges are of a very gross nature. The hon. and learned Gentleman made charges of a very gross character against the occupants of the Government Front Bench. He used such words as "dishonour," "lowest depths," and "breach of faith," and where such charges are made, not only is the onus of proof on the person who makes them, but he should be put to a very strict proof.
  The charges of alleged turpitude and obliquity which have been levelled against Ministers today are based on (a) an alleged agreement and (b) an alleged breach of that agreement. I have no doubt that the onus has not been discharged. Not only has an agreement not been proved, but it has not been shown that if there were such an agreement it subsisted from Parliament to Parliament and that it would be constitutionally right to attempt to carry it out now. If we look at the terms of the Amendment, on behalf of which the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities spoke, we see that it alleges that the agreement has been repudiated for party advantage, and not as a constitutional right. I submit that none of these things have been proved. When the hon. and learned Member was speaking, I intervened and put to him the dilemma in which his argument placed him, but he
  1440
  sailed away from it by saying that he did not wish to delay later speakers. I asked him to specify the charge that the agreement could be carried on from Parliament to Parliament, and I put to him the question, "Does not your argument mean that one Parliament can bind another?" I have no doubt that those who are lawyers here will agree that it would be an alteration of the British Constitution for one Parliament to attempt to bind or even to influence a succeeding Parliament. That is what the Amendment seeks to do.
  On another aspect, I was rather astonished to hear the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) express superstitious awe about observations which fell from the Home Secretary on Second Reading. I have looked them up since. It is quite true that my right hon. Friend said, on the Second Reading of this Bill:
  "This Bill completes the progress of the British people towards a full and complete democracy begun by the great Reform Bill of 1832.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th February, 1948; Vol. 447, C. 839.]
  The hon. Member was shocked at the use of the word "completes." He said that no actor ever completed his recital of his part at rehearsal lest it might mean the completion, the end of all things, the end of the play. The hon. Member was shocked that my right hon. Friend should use the word "completes," lest superstitution might lead him to an unfortunate end of the Bill he was espousing. I have no doubt that it will not mean the end of the Bill. This Bill, like all national progress, has proceeded degree by degree, step by step, against opposition. That was so in the case of the great Reform Bills of 1832 and 1866, and is so today, in 1948. The Opposition seek to stop the march of progress. They do so in vain. Social forces march onward in their might and the worn-out views of the Opposition will not stay the progress of this Bill. Why? Because it is fair and just and right, because it abolishes privilege, redistributes seats on the basis of the population and makes for fairer representation of the people.
  The senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter), when arguing in favour of the retention of separate university representation, said that this Bill aimed seven blows. He said that one was at an historic part of the structure of this

  1441
  House. What part? If a limited and privileged franchise is part of the structure of this House, then surely the Bill is right in abolishing it in these democratic days. He said that it was a wanton and unprovoked blow at the professional classes. I submit it is nothing of the kind. Other constituencies return members of the professional classes. Professors are not the only members of the professional classes, and other constituencies return Members of various branches of the learned professions. There is no special virtue in the professional classes, and Members of this House who are not members of the professional classes have made very useful and valuable contributions.
  The senior Burgess for Oxford University said that the third blow was one at learning and education. That, I submit, is a complete fallacy. Learning and education is one thing; political representation is quite another. One has nothing to do with the other, and this Bill does not in any way affect learning and education. The fourth blow he described was a blow at the Constitution itself. That is a gross exaggeration out of all proportion to the argument he was attempting to support. I submit that no case has been made out by the Opposition and on those grounds I oppose the Motion and support this Bill, which I hope will pass.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: With the exception of the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hector Hughes), who was obviously speaking to a brief, there have been six speeches from the back benches opposite and only two have been in unqualified support of this Bill. The arguments of the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen could be summarised by saying that they consisted of saying, first of all, that the Government never made a bargain; secondly, if they did it was not intended to last; thirdly, if it was intended to last the Government should not be bound by it; and, fourthly, that if they were bound by it the Opposition broke it first. The hon. and learned Member, who is a member of the same profession as myself, realises that these sophistries, of which we have every day experience in the courts, are all right in the courts, but it may-dawn upon him that when we step out of our wigs and gowns and try to appear as men who represent the things in which we really
  1442
  believe, such inconsistent sophistries are a little ridiculous and sometimes a trifle dishonourable.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: The hon. Member, like his colleagues, uses the word "dishonour" with great facility. Am I to take his observation as an attack upon the learned profession to which he and I have the honour to belong?
  Mr. Hogg: No. I was venturing to argue that what may be legitimate in a pleading becomes less legitimate when speaking on oath, or when the person who utters it has to make himself responsible for its truth.
  I should like now to turn to the other part of the case which was presented to us by other hon. Members opposite. Of those hon. Members only two, the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) and the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr, Collins), expressed unqualified support of this Bill. The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), who was going to vote in favour of it, thought it would have been better if it had been postponed until after the local government inquiry, a theme with which I respectfully agree although I think it is the least of the Bill's deficiencies. The hon. Member for Workington and the hon. Member for Taunton were both, however, in general going to vote for the Bill. The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) was going to vote against it, while the hon. Member for Drake (Mr. Medland) did not feel able to go into the Lobby in its support.
  I sympathise with the hon. Member for Drake. He complains of the fact that one of the constituencies for Plymouth—indeed, the one which he represents here—is to be obliterated and he also complains of the fact that the distinguished city of Plymouth is to have an average quota of 75,000. Poor man, he does not realise that he and Plymouth are cast in this miserable comedy in the part of Uriah the Hittite. He has to leave us to ensure that Kingston shall still be a constituency of 108,000 or Oxford created into a constituency of 75,000. He does not realise that one or two Socialists must disappear to make it possible for Labour seats of 40,000 to be created in the rotten boroughs of the Metropolis and elsewhere and so that Tory seats of 100,000 shall be allowed to continue. Uriah the Hittite

  1443
  is placed in the most dangerous part of the battle and the object is to make him disappear. I sympathise with the hon. Member for Drake but I am amazed at his ingenuousness in not realising that he has been made a cuckold.
  That leads me to the assertion of the hon. Member for Taunton and the hon. Member for Workington, both of whom said that in supporting the Bill they were actuated by nothing but principle. I once heard a litigant who had lost a court action, having the result of the proceedings explained to him by an unsympathetic managing clerk. That managing clerk was seen to take him aside, and in a stentorian whisper, which rang through the building, he told him, "'E didn't believe yer." Distasteful as it is to say it, my answer to the hon. Gentleman when they say they are actuated by principle is, "I don't believe yer." The evidence against it is so overwhelming that nobody in his senses would. One can believe that a man once or twice has found the path of duty which was also the path to glory, but when a man acts again and again—not once again but again and again—in his own interests and all the time mouths the plea of moral principle as the actuating motive behind it, every sensible person is driven to realise that the man is a hypocrite. He may deceive some people and he may continue to deceive himself, but the real situation is quite different.
  In this case, each of the significant changes which the Government have made in the basis of the franchise in this country has inured to their own advantage. No doubt they have been actuated by the highest principles. They have abolished the business vote, a thing which they claim to be obviously to their advantage. They have abolished the City of London constituency to their own advantage. The have abolished the university seats to their own advantage, and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland has practically admitted that in doing this they are actuated by that reason alone. They have created 17 new constituencies, the motive behind which is painfully obvious and they have tried to abolish, or at any rate to limit, the elector driving to the poll by motor car, unless, of course, he is rich enough to afford one of his own which he can
  1444
  go in—another change which is admitted by Members opposite to be to their own advantage.
  Of these five reasons based on the highest principle two have been discovered since the Second Reading of the Bill, one after the plea based on the highest principle was asserted in loud terms by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) whilst he was still a voice crying in the wilderness and one after a similar demarche from the gang below the Gangway. These concessions to principles deceive nobody. To pretend that they are actuated by principle, or by anything else than mere party expediency, is humbug.
  Our objection to this Bill is that it is a dirty business and nothing but a dirty business. It was a dirty business when it was brought in and it has become the "Dirtiest of the Dirty"—if hon. Members remember their Surtees—since it went through the Committee and Report stages. It is, in fact, one of the characteristic productions of the political morality of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House. In the first place, it is based upon no obvious principle of public advantage. Secondly, it is clearly actuated by the plainest motives of party interest. Thirdly, it embodies a distinct breach of pledge.
  That brings me to the characteristic speech of the hon. Member for Hornchurch. His argument, at any rate, was directed to the point which has been made against the Bill today that it involves a breach of faith by the Government. It is a pity that he did not manage to deal with the criticism which was made. This is not a difficult or pedantic question of precedents and past examples. It is something which is within the living recollection of every Member of this House who was a Member of the previous Parliament. We know that a bargain was made because we were parties to it. We know that the distinct arrangement was made that the Speaker's Conference should be honourably regarded if it arrived at a conclusion. Nor is it of the slightest possible plausibility to suggest that the bargain was not intended to last. It was obvious, and was agreed from the very content of the Speaker's Conference negotiations, that only part of them could have been carried out in the lifetime of that

  1445
  Parliament—namely, that part which dealt with the purely interim arrangements for the creation of a purely temporary number of constituencies. The greater part of the discussions, in fact, concerned general constitutional questions which were never within the contemplation of anyone to be enacted in the last Parliament.
  It is said—without very much appearance of conviction—that this House is not bound by the Speaker's Conference. In a sense that is perfectly true, and if the hon. Member for Hornchurch had simply been asserting the constitutional rights of this House to disregard its leaders and for hon. Members to vote as their conscience tells them to, I imagine he would have received the support of every hon. Member, at any rate of those not on the Front Benches. That, however, is not the point. Hon. Members and right hon. Gentleman who are parties to an agreement must keep that agreement. That is the meaning of a bargain. Right hon. Gentlemen who make a bargain of this kind in plain terms must, when they come to this House afterwards, seek to honour it. They must recommend the House to accept it. That is their plain duty. When they do not do that, they are dishonourable. When the Home Secretary, in a previous Debate, solemnly came here and said to us, "You do not know my back benchers," he was using an argument which no political leader ever would have accepted.
  Mr. Hector Hughes rose—
  Mr. Hogg: The hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me for not giving way. I have given way to him once and am pressed for time. The truth of the matter is that when the right hon. Gentleman introduces a Bill, he does not wait for his back benchers to disown it. He does not leave it, as he has left other things, to a free vote of the House. When he introduces a Bill—backed with all the authority of the Government Whips—containing the opposite of what he agreed to do, that is something which no honourable man would do—and, I must add, which no honourable party would accept from its leaders. If he had been afraid that his back benchers would have disowned him, as he pitifully had to admit the last time he spoke to us on this subject, his duty was to wait until they did so
  1446
  and then to resign, and to give them the opportunity, if they liked, of reinstating him by taking his advice, or, if he preferred, of going back into the wilderness and retaining his reputation as an honourable man. What he has chosen to do, however—to adopt a phrase of my hon. Friend the Member for Flint (Mr. Birch)—is to ''eat dirt." This is not the first time he has done so. Let me warn him that a man who has once been made by his supporters to eat dirt will not have to cease eating dirt until the end of his political days.
  We come from the principle of the breach of faith to the question of the constitutional principle involved in the Bill. As I see it, this is the very clear and simple constitutional principle which is involved. Democracy cannot be made to work—and I think this is generally conceded on both sides of the House—unless there is a certain basis of agreement about first principles and a certain basis of good faith between the two major parties in that democracy. This is a question which supremely ought not to have been forced through by a party majority. Differences in the franchise, differences in the basis of representation, can constitutionally be introduced in one of two ways. Either they can be introduced into an election programme and sanctioned by the people direct, or they can be made the basis of an honourable agreement, honourably carried out, between the two parties which differ about principle in the House of Commons. But there is no third way in which it can honourably be done without destroying the very basis upon which constitutional democracy is, based. It is precisely because the Government have chosen a third way—a third way which, in this instance, involves a distinct breach of a clear pledge—that I am not in the least going to accept the criticism that we have been indulging in mere abuse when we describe this as a dirty business of which any honourable man ought to be ashamed.
  A great deal of humbug has been talked about the principle—[Interruption]—at any rate from the Benches opposite—about the principle of "one man, one vote" and "one vote, one value." Such an argument is the plainest hypocrisy because it is not that which the Bill either effects or seeks to effect. A vote in Battersea will be treated as worth about two

  1447
  and a half times a vote in Kingston, because one is likely to return a Socialist and the other a Tory. It will count about twice as much as a vote in Oxford because Oxford happens to have a Tory representative in Parliament. People returning a Conservative Member are being disfranchised by the party opposite in the name of "one vote, one value." But where they find an area which they can dominate with their lying propaganda they give that area extra seats. But let me tell the party opposite that they will be mistaken even in that, because, even in the most backward areas of the country, the follies and inconsistencies of the Government are very rapidly coming to be seen.
  The principles behind a true Representation of the People Bill ought to have been considered rather on these lines: First, the manner of its introduction according to the principles of which I have spoken; secondly, as to the underlying constitutional principles according to the answers given to this question: how can this House of Commons be made a better and more representative place; how can our debates be raised in value and how can the various segments and sections of opinion be better represented? These are questions to which the right hon. Gentleman has never directed his attention. He has chosen, instead, to deprive those unique bodies—the universities—of their special representation, he has chosen to break the pledges which he solemnly made and to depart from the acknowledged principles which hitherto have guided constitutional reform.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: I do not think that the wild excesses of language of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) will deceive even his own supporters on this occasion—
  Mr. Rankin: Or himself.
  Mr. Fletcher: Or himself. We are accustomed to hearing extravagant language of that kind from the hon. Member but he has not said a word in reasoned justification of the Opposition Amendment for the rejection of this Bill. I want in the brief time available to me to give my answer to the most serious charges which have been made by the Opposition. We
  1448
  have been charged with bad faith, with dishonour, with cheating, with chicanery, with having rotten constituencies and so on.
  Mr. Shurmer: The Tories should know how rotten they are.
  Mr. Fletcher: I want to repudiate the offensive and malignant suggestions that have been made because I believe they are quite unwarranted. We are accustomed to hear language from hon. Members opposite which suggests that they and they alone are the custodians of constitutional principles and that they and they alone understand the basis on which constitutional democracy should exist in this country. We on these benches are just as zealous to preserve the essential basis of British constitutional democracy as those who sit on the benches opposite. I do not think there has been any violation—as they suggest—of any of the fundamental bases on which constitutional democracy depends.
  I resent as most mischievous those remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) in which he alluded to Soviet Russia and to elections in Czechoslovakia and Poland, and his innuendo that this Bill so far deviates from the principles of constitutional democracy which we follow in this country as to have introduced elements of totalitarianism. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and the Opposition know that. That which distinguishes a free democracy from a totalitarian country is a constitution which enables the electorate to express its opinion at free and periodic elections and either to support the Government of the day or to return a new Government. The object of this Bill is to preserve that essential democratic freedom, by making improvements in our electoral arrangements, designed to secure the most just and equitable machinery for democratic representation.
  It is no use hon. Members attacking this Bill because it may incidentally produce some advantages for this party. All great Reform Bills and all changes of the franchise have been made by progressive parties against the opposition of reactionary parties like the Tory Party. If they had not been carried through by progressive Governments, we should never have had the Reform Bill of 1832, the subsequent Reform Bills of the nineteenth

  1449
  century and the Ballot Act, whereby there were successive extensions of the franchise and successive removals of disqualifications. It does not vitiate the value of those progressive Measures that they were incidentally of advantage to progressive Governments. That is inevitable. It may well be that the abolition of the universities franchise may be of some slight benefit to the Labour Party but that in itself is not a reason why the Government should not carry out this or any other reform if it is justified on the merits of the argument. I have already given my reasons for the abolition of the university franchise on the merits of the argument.
  I turn to this charge of bad faith. This fundamental principle of good faith between parties, as it has been expressed from the benches opposite, is so important that if I thought there had been a breach of faith, I would not support the Government on the Third Reading tonight; but I do not think there has been a breach of faith. I have listened to most of the speeches, including that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford; I have heard the arguments, and I have heard the suggestions made that there was a bargain and denials that there was a bargain. I have yet to find anybody who has been able to say that there was a clear, definite, precise bargain proclaimed and published, about which the electorate knew and which was understood in the country. I do not regard these fundamental matters as something which can be conclusively arranged between parties. After all, Parliament has its rights and the electorate have their rights.
  I am perfectly convinced that if in my constituency at the General Election, I had been asked my views about the abolition or retention of the university franchise, I should have said that I was against the university franchise I am quite sure that if it had been put to them at any of their election meetings—in a great many constituencies it was—the majority of hon. Members sitting in this House of Commons on these benches would have said that they would vote for the abolition of the university franchise and the business vote, and they would have been supported because that is the policy for which this party has stood for a number of years. It is also a policy for which the Liberal Party has stood for
  1450
  a great number of years. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford himself voted for the abolition of the university seats as long ago as 1912.
  In case anybody should be misled by the violent, venomous language in which the Government have been attacked on this Bill, it is desirable that we should remind ourselves that this kind of abuse is no new thing when a progressive Measure dealing with the franchise is introduced. I have looked up the Debates on some of the earlier Bills, particularly that of 1912 when the Liberal Government introduced a Bill for the abolition of plural voting and the university franchise. I find that the Tory Party—true to form—made precisely the same kind of charges in those days against the Liberal Government. They said that the Bill was introduced only for party advantage and was introduced in a partisan spirit. They said it was gerrymandering and so forth. The truth of the matter is that whenever any progressive Government, be it Liberal or Socialist, has introduced a Measure for bringing the franchise and the distribution of constituencies more into line with the requirements of the times and to a pitch which makes the House of Commons a truer approximation to an ideal representation of the people, it has been abused and opposed by the Tory Party.
  8.18 p.m.
  Sir John Anderson: I intend to occupy the time of the House only for a very few minutes. My purpose in intervening at this stage is solely to make my own position clear on an aspect of the matter with which I did not deal when I spoke on the Second Reading of this Bill. I did not deal with it then because it had been dealt with so fully and so effectively shortly before by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill).
  I refer, of course, to the charge—for that is what it is—that in promoting this Bill, so much at variance with the agreed recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, a number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite—not all—have been guilty of a wanton breach of an honourable obligation. In saying that I am choosing my words very carefully. I am in general agreement with what has been said on the subject on this side of the House, and, in particular, I associate myself

  1451
  entirely with the remarks of my right hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) in the most impressive speech, as I thought, which he made on the Report stage. It seems to me perfectly clear that it would be quite purposeless and futile to have a Speaker's Conference or any conference of that kind, unless it involved an implied obligation on all parties to any arrangement to which they might come to do their best to put that arrangement into operation. It was perfectly clear from the outset that the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference could not all be carried out at once. It was clear that some of them would require a considerable period of preparation; and when part of the recommendations had been carried out, as they were in the lifetime of the last Parliament, the obligation on those concerned to do their best to see that the remaining recommendations were brought into effect, was surely all the stronger.
  I can give point to my remarks by referring to what I think is a precisely analogous case. It must be well known to certain hon. Members on both sides of the House that in the lifetime of the last Parliament informal inter-Party discussions were held to see whether agreement could or could not be reached in regard to some amendment of the Trades Disputes Act. What was in mind, and what was under discussion, was a partial amendment dealing with the position of civil servants and officers of local authorities. Agreement was not -reached as a result of those conversations. I personally regretted that it should be so, but I am quite sure of this, having been in close touch with right hon. Gentlemen who are now members of His Majesty's Government who were concerned in those discussions, that if agreement had been reached upon a partial amendment of the Trades Disputes Act, those right hon. Gentlemen would have considered it a matter of honour to do their best to dissuade their followers—they might not have succeeded, no undertaking was given—from pressing, on some subsequent occasion, for a more radical amendment. Of that I am absolutely certain.
  Mr. E. Fletcher rose—
  Sir J. Anderson: Just a moment. I hope the hon. Member for East Islington
  1452
  (Mr. E. Fletcher), who seemed to find no substance in the arguments put forward from this side of the House, will ponder what I have just said, because I think the case is exactly analogous.
  Mr. Fletcher: Would the right hon. Gentleman forgive me for interrupting? Would he not appreciate that if any agreement of that kind had been reached, it would have become general knowledge, and there would have been no reference to the amendment of the Trades Disputes Act in the programme of the Labour Party at the General Election.
  Sir J. Anderson: That may be perfectly true, but if an agreement of that kind had been reached, I am perfectly certain that right hon. Gentleman with whom I was associated at that time would have considered it a matter of honour to see that that agreement was put into effect, and would have tried to dissuade their supporters from pressing for anything more radical. I am certain that the last thing they would have tried to do would have been themselves to promote legislation departing radically from the agreement arrived at.
  I have listened to a good deal of the Debate at various stages of this Bill and it has seemed to me a most remarkable fact that no serious attempt has been made, so far as I have been able to gather or judge at any stage, to make any effective answer to the grave charges put forward from this side. The Secretary of State for Scotland admitted that there had been an agreement but he said quite simply, "The other side had broken it first." That is the whole of his argument in a nutshell. As if the other side had anything to do with or had any power to control, the action of university constituencies, and particularly a university constituency in Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council, pressed again and again, kept on using this one argument, that an agreement come to in one Parliament cannot bind a subsequent Parliament. No one has suggested that it could and no one has suggested that any arrangement or honourable understanding arrived at was binding on persons who were not parties to it. The charge lies against those hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who were parties to the arrangement.

  1453
  I recognise that the Home Secretary occupies a rather special position because, so far as I know, he was not a member of the Speaker's Conference and he occupied a minor ministerial office at the time when the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference came before the Coalition Government. Therefore, in that respect, he occupies a rather special position, and that may conceivably have something to do with the situation we are in today, but he, in attempting to answer the arguments put forward from this side, merely gave us his own view on the merits of the case for various provisions in this Bill. He was entitled to do that, but he was not attempting to answer the charge of breach of faith.
  Other hon. Members, in attempting to meet the charge, have sought to ride off on side issues by asking, for example, on whom is it suggested that any understanding arrived at in the last Parliament is binding; for how long is it suggested that any obligation resulting from any such understanding is operative? These are questions to which there is a simple answer. Obviously no understanding imposes an obligation of honour on persons who were not parties to the arrangement. As regards carrying the arrangement into effect, I would say the obvious answer is that the arrangement is carried into effect when it is embodied in a statute. Those are the answers to those questions.
  I do not charge right hon. Gentlemen opposite with deliberately and wantonly breaking faith. I have worked with them, I know what they are. My belief is that they slipped into an unfortunate position without fully realising at first what they were doing. I have often said that I thought hon. Members were trying to do so much that they could not give proper thought to what they were doing, but when the situation was made clear to them, as it was at an early stage of the proceedings on this Bill, I certainly think they should have had the courage to withdraw, that they should have done their best—they might have failed, experience shows that sometimes they do fail—to convince their supporters that the only proper and honourable course was to bring the Bill into conformity with the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference.
  I, for my part, say quite deliberately that I consider that in what right hon.
  1454
  Gentlemen have done in this Bill they have, in the words of the Amendment on the Paper, lowered the standards of our public conduct. If this Bill passes into law, they will have done something which will reflect lasting discredit on the first Socialist Government that has been in a position to make its will effective by the use of a large Parliamentary majority. I have made my position perfectly clear, and I will certainly go into the Lobby against the Third Reading of this Bill.
  Mr. Bing: Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, could he deal with a point which I raised—I do not think he had the advantage of being here? How is it proper that the Coalition Government should disregard the unanimous decision of the Speaker's Conference in 1917, and how is it improper, even if that be right, that the same thing should be done now?
  Sir J. Anderson: I must ask the hon. Gentleman to forgive me. I had to fulfil a speaking engagement in Manchester today, and I had not the advantage of hearing him, but I can assure him that my right hon. Friend will deal faithfully with that.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Reid: As one of the "gang below the Gangway" facetiously described by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), I should like to say a few words. I listened with the greatest pleasure to the Leader of the Opposition. I enjoyed his wit and humour as we all did, but I did not agree with a great part of his speech. He seemed to have a knowledge of the internal affairs of the Labour Party, which I, for one, do not possess. I do not know whether the Tory Party have the new X-ray apparatus for seeing through our party in a way that we cannot see ourselves, but I can assure the House that the right hon. Gentleman conjured up vast illusions about us and about what went on behind the scenes in regard to this matter.
  The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) has just stated that our Ministers should have persuaded us to postpone the Bill or not to bring in certain Clauses. I think the Lord President of the Council will reply on that point. I had nothing to do with the so-called agreement so I shall

  1455
  not deal with it; but to suggest in this House and in this Parliament that because of what took place—honourable or dishonourable I leave others to decide—in a previous Coalition Government, we cannot bring in this Bill seems to me to be unconstitutional. As regards the Speaker's Conference my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) has made it perfectly clear from a number of precedents that the Speaker's Conference is not a necessary procedure in the changing of electoral law. I do not think that the point can be controverted. Electoral law has been changed before without a Speaker's Conference. Precedent is one of the guides in our Constitution. Moreover, recommendations of a Speaker's Conference have been set aside by Parliament before and it would be unconstitutional to suggest that we cannot now set aside the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference under the Coalition Government.
  The Leader of the Opposition said that if ever the Tories came to power again they would lift the standard of policy in regard to the representation of the people. Let us see how the right hon. Gentleman—I am sorry he is not in his place—proposes to lift that standard. He told us explicitly that his party will restore the seat or seats to the City of London; that is to say, that if they come back to Westminster they will give a Member of Parliament to a constituency in which only 4,000 or 5,000 voters are resident. Is that lifting the standard of policy in regard to the representation of the people? Will anyone believe that in this country?
  The right hon. Gentleman also said that they would restore the university seats. I know that we have been accused of trying to abolish university seats because it does not suit us to let the Independents or Tories win those seats. I can exculpate myself. I was engaged in devising a constitution and an electoral law for another country some years ago. A draft came before me in which English law was followed, which provided for representation of the universities. I asked: "Why should universities be represented? What on earth makes it right for them to be represented? Are they the only learned people in the country? Why should not the legal or engineering professions be
  1456
  represented? Why should we start the corporative state of Mussolini?" I could not get any answer to my questions from my assistants, nor from the Law Officers of the Crown, so I struck it out and it was never raised again and so there is no university representation in that country—nor in any other country of the world save Britain.
  I assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that I, and practically every hon. Member on this side of the House, want to abolish the university seats because we regard them as a relic of the age of privilege and because we believe in "One man, one vote" and "one vote, one value," and also in election by residents. We therefore have the conviction that university seats should go. If hon. Members opposite think that we are doing this thing in order to win seats at future elections, they are just living in an illusion. We are perfectly honest and sincere about this matter. The hon. Member for Oxford used a lot of epithets that do no harm to anybody but himself. He alleged that we were bringing in a Bill which would be to our advantage. One can never see how elections will go in the future, but if the Bill were law today and we had an election, I think it would be to the advantage of the Labour Party. Let us be frank about it. That is because previously there was a law which was unjust and undemocratic and which was to the advantage of the Tory Party. We are destroying privileges which existed and which should not have existed. We are doing something today which should have been done long ago. That is the answer I make to the hon. Member for Oxford.
  Another hon. Member for a university seat talked about the preservation of picturesque anomalies and ceremonials. I am entirely with him. I think that most hon. Members on this side of the House are entirely with him. We do not want to abolish picturesque ceremonies or anomalies which relate the history of our time to the history of the past, and I have not heard one hon. Member suggest that we should abolish those things. But when an anomaly gives two seats to the City of London with 5,000 voters in it, that is a different question altogether.
  Mr. K. Lindsay: As the hon. Member is apparently quoting me, I would like to make it absolutely clear that I said that I was against plural voting.
  Mr. Reid: I think I am right in saying that the hon. Member did plead for the retention of picturesque anomalies.
  Mr. Lindsay: I never used the adjective picturesque."
  Mr. Reid: I was just trying to make clear the hon. Gentleman's meaning. Anomalies are never very attractive unless they are picturesque.
  Mr. Lindsay: I ought to be quoted accurately.
  Mr. Reid: Anyhow, when the anomalies are contrary to fair play and democracy, and give a great bias to one party in the State, it is right that those anomalies must go, whether they are picturesque or not. I think the same hon. Gentleman said that the Bill was a "petty, stupid act of aggression." No doubt he will correct me if I am wrong.
  Mr. Lindsay indicated assent.
  Mr. Reid: I know how sincere the hon. Gentleman is. I know him very well, and I have a great respect for him. I believe he meant what he said, but let me say that the Bill is not a stupid act of aggression. We are acting upon our democratic convictions and are trying to secure that the subject has fair play in the State between parties. The Bill is long overdue. The Party opposite have said they are going to use it against us at the next election to do us harm. I hope sincerely that the Conservative office will give instructions to their candidate in Swindon to put these items "Vote for a Member for the City and for the restoration of the university vote" into his programme. I hope sincerely that they will tell their candidate in Swindon to put those items foremost in his election campaign. I guarantee that they will lose him 1,000 votes.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. John McKay: Throughout this Debate, one of the vital points has been the question of the Speaker's Conference, what was agreed at that Conference and what should be the consequences arising from it. I think it is generally understood that when circumstances change, other things change with them. We ought to try to picture the circumstances in which the Speaker's Conference met. When it met, the people of this country over a long period had
  1458
  not had an opportunity to express their desires in this matter. Another point that has been developed in this discussion is the question of mandates. Throughout this Debate I have never heard anyone from either side of the House indicate that his party has had a mandate to adopt a certain course in this matter. There is no mandate. The whole point is that certain Members of Parliament who were assembled together thought that there was some need to revise the state of affairs, and came to certain conclusions.
  We have listened to speeches from responsible Members on the other side, including the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) who, with all his eloquence and command of language, referred to the Speaker's Conference. The Speaker's Conference itself had no mandate. It received no expression of opinion from the people. No programme at any election had proposed how this matter should be dealt with. Does the Speaker's Conference tie any new body of Members who are elected by the people? Even the Opposition admit that this House is not tied either constitutionally or in any other way, except by the responsibility which they say was undertaken by those who were at the Speaker's Conference. Even if we assume that that argument holds good, the fact that undermines it is that those people who assembled at the Speaker's Conference and came to certain conclusions, are not here now.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: They are on the Government Front Bench.
  Mr. McKay: Some of them are here, but many of them are not. Therefore, the whole argument is weakened. There is no responsibility upon the House, and no handful of men who were at that Conference have any right or authority to restrict the policy of this House. That is the whole logic of the situation. Why do we have elections? What are mandates? Have they any authority? If we have not got a mandate, what have we to do? Anyone who watches the work of this House knows that during any Session or any period in which any party holds authority, there are any amount of things with which the House has to deal and for which there is no mandate. As a House, we have to use our judgment.

  1459
  That is the position in which we are now placed. When there was an election the question of the people's representation was not raised by any party. There is no mandate from the people, and a new body quite different from the previous House of Commons assembles to deal with the policy of the country. Therefore, logically that new House which is elected has the right to use its judgment on this matter, and if it thinks that some things which were agreed upon at the Speaker's Conference ought to be adopted or amended or abolished, there is no question that the Members then assembled have the right to act accordingly.
  Then we had the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), with his command of language, trying to tell the public, through HANSARD, that the Socialist Party are playing a dirty trick. How can anyone say that? Who are the people who can pass judgment on our actions? For whom are we acting? We are acting for the people, and if we are playing a dirty trick it is a good thing for the Conservative Party, because at the next election the people will turn against the Socialist Party. We are not afraid to go back to the people. The Conservatives would be very annoyed if we were to have another election on this issue of the representation of the people. This House, of course, has its party issues, and, as a matter of tactics and policy, on occasions we say that Members on the other side are dirty dogs, but that carries no weight in the country at large, certainly not among the people who understand politics. Therefore, hon. Members opposite are not benefiting their party in making such statements.
  What does this Bill do, after all is said and done? The purpose of this House is to try gradually to move to a better economic standard, nearer and nearer to a position of equality, in so far as it is possible to obtain equality. Of course, nobody with any intelligence will suggest that it is possible to get absolute equality, but, although it is not possible to get absolute equality, we can get equality in some things. We can secure equality of opportunity in education. We can get equality in the franchise. We have an opportunity to try to rise to another stage. Whatever may have been our past history, whatever rottenness may exist and
  1460
  despite the many dirty tricks which may have been played by the people who were in power in the past, we have reached a stage in our evolution when the people are sufficiently educated and interested and have sufficient intelligence and training to decide the simple issue who should represent them in this House. We are simply attempting to say in this Bill that we have now reached that stage. We, the Labour Party, say that the people in general have a perfect right to ask, so far as the franchise is concerned, that equality should be established and placed upon the Statute Book so that we can claim that we have reached a higher stage in life.
  8.50 p.m.
  Mr. Osbert Peake: We have now come to the concluding stages of what have been very long Debates, and I think that on this occasion the Government might have treated us to a change in their batting order. No one can question the wisdom of the decision to keep the Secretary of State for Scotland back in the pavilion, after his unfortunate innings on the opening day, on 16th February, but I think it is a bit thick that we still have to bowl all our deliveries at the Home Secretary—
  Mr. Harrison: No bumping.
  Mr. Peake:—who stays in a very long time and makes much more use of his pads than he does of his bat.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Younger): But that criticism also applies to the Opposition.
  Mr. Peake: When bowlers are being successful, one very often keeps them on, but when the batsmen are being so singularly unsuccessful it seems to me it might have been wise to try a change. I should have liked to see the author of some of these proposals, the Chancellor of the Duchy, who has worked his way back into the team, given an opportunity to defend these matters for which he has had a large degree of responsibility.
  Mr. W. R. Williams: He would have put the wind up hon. Members.
  Mr. Peake: He certainly would not have put the wind up me. I can assure hon.

  1461
  Members opposite that if there is one emotion which we on this side do not feel the Chancellor of the Duchy, it is fear. We experience a great many other emotions about him. I think that when a Motion is put on the Order Paper which amounts to a Motion of censure on His Majesty's Ministers, then the Prime Minister, who is himself involved in these charges, might have come down to the House to defend his Ministers. Throughout all these long Debates, we have never once had a word from the Prime Minister, and this is a most important Bill.
  The Government cannot complain that they did not have adequate notice of the charges that we make against them. They were first made more than four months on the Second Reading, and during the Second Reading Debate I established, I think to the satisfaction of practically everyone in the House, three propositions. First, that a binding agreement was made at the Speaker's Conference in 1944; and secondly, that that agreement bound political parties as well as the individuals who made it. I quite see that hon. Members opposite are experiencing some difficulty in drawing a distinction between an agreement which is binding on a political party, and an agreement which is binding upon every individual member of that political party, but, of course, there is a distinction. The Lord President of the Council himself has admitted—and there is, therefore no need to argue the matter again—that the agreement made in 1944 was binding on political parties.
  Mr. Logan: Was that subject to no reservations?
  Mr. Peake: As it seems to be questioned, I will read a passage from HANSARD, col. 1930, of 16th March, when we were in Committee on the university representation. The Lord President of the Council spoke as follows:
  "The right hon. Member for North Leeds, in somewhat extravagant language at times, accused us of a breach of faith. He argued that there was a bargain which was binding on the parties. Up to that point there is some truth in that, but when he went on to bay that the bargain is operative today I absolutely, flatly and categorically deny it.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th March, 1948; Vol. 448, c. 1928.]
  The only statement challenged by the right hon. Gentleman was that the bargain continued in operation after the end of the last Parliament.
  Mr. H. Morrison: That is the whole point.
  Mr. Peake: He never challenged my statement; and, in fact, he confirmed my statement by saying there was some truth in it, that the bargain struck in 1944 was binding upon the political parties.
  Mr. Morrison: In that Parliament.
  Mr. Peake: Of course, in that Parliament—binding upon the political parties. I went on to say, to the satisfaction, at any rate, of my own supporters, that the bargain made in 1944 was intended to constitute a continuing obligation until it was either fulfilled or dissolved by the mutual consent of the contracting parties; and at the end of my speech I appealed to the Government to think again before the Committee stage, and I appealed to them to follow what I conceived to be the path of honour.
  Mr. Logan rose—
  Mr. Peake: I cannot give way all the time, because the right hon. Gentleman has to reply to me.
  Mr. Logan: What right has the right hon. Member to make out that there was a bargain between two parties?
  Mr. Peake: This Debate has to conclude at 10 o'clock, and I am most anxious to give the right hon. Gentleman adequate time to reply, and if I am continually interrupted I shall be compelled to take time properly due to the right hon. Gentleman. A month later we entered the Committee stage, on 16th March. I appealed to the Government again to think upon this matter. It has now been subsequently divulged that, when we were debating the breach of faith on 16th March and 17th March on the question of the universities and the City of London, the Government had already, 10 days earlier, taken a Cabinet decision to add 17 seats to the boroughs, and that they had secretly referred those proposals to the Boundary Commission—acting, of course, in an unofficial capacity—for detailed examination, as early as 9th March.
  The House will be interested to recall that in winding up the Debate on 16th March on the question of the universities, my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) challenged the Home Secretary, and asked what it was intended to do about the big

  1463
  cities, whose case had been pressed on Second Reading by the Chancellor of the Duchy. The Home Secretary, knowing perfectly well that 10 days earlier the Cabinet had decided to add 17 seats to the boroughs, never gave any reply of any sort to that question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] It was not until 11 days later, on 19th March, that for the first time we saw upon the Order Paper Amendments which would add 17 seats, mainly to the advantage of the Socialist Party.
  The Government had their last chance of taking a decent course over this question when my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) put forward certain claims for additional representation in areas which, as a result of the Government's decision, became under-represented. Those claims were put forward in a letter to the Boundary Commission, which was published at the time. The Home Secretary, with a great show of impartiality, referred these claims to the Commission, and in the case of five seats for which we subsequently pressed on the Report stage, the report of the Commission was entirely favourable. The case for additional representation in those areas was conclusive and complete. The acceptance of those proposals would have done a good deal to save the face of the Government over this matter. Nevertheless, they were rejected on Report by the Home Secretary, without any reasons being stated. That action must have convinced even those who were most charitably disposed towards the Government that the Government had one motive, and one motive alone, in the handling of this Bill, and that was the partisan electoral advantage of their own party.
  We have observed with interest the change of attitude from time to time of hon. Members opposite towards these charges of breach of faith. When they were first made on 16th February, they were greeted with anger and resentment both by back benchers and Ministers alike. They were greeted also with mutually contradictory interruptions by the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council. That was on the first occasion they were made.
  On the second occasion which was during the Committee stage, there were
  1464
  no more Ministerial interruptions. The charges were greeted with silence from the Front Bench and cynical laughter, which the right hon. Member for Woodford likened to the crackling of thorns under a pot, from the Members behind them. There were signs on both the Front and back benches of a certain loss of nerve, and when ten days ago we came to the Report stage, there was a stony silence on the part of Ministers and back benchers alike. Today, these charges have been repeated more than once, and have been received and accepted apparently without protest of any sort or kind, except for an intervention from the hon. and learned Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hughes), who evidently had not been here on the previous occasions.
  Discredit to His Majesty's Ministers, which we allege in our reasoned Amendment, attaches, in my view, primarily to the leading Members of the Government who served in the Coalition and who accepted the report of the Speaker's Conference. It attaches also in a special degree to the Socialist representatives on the Conference, that is to say, the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of National Insurance, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker) They knew what they were about when they made that agreement. It has been admitted that they acted there in a representative capacity. It has been claimed by the Lord President for them that they made the best bargain possible for their party. It has been claimed also that at the time the settlement was made it was hoped that it would be a lasting settlement. All those representatives on the Conference knew perfectly well that legislation in a future Parliament was essential to the fulfilment of the agreement which they had made.
  What is the use of the Home Secretary maintaining, as he does, that he is under no personal obligation? He cannot exculpate himself. Of course, it is true that he was only a junior Member of the Coalition Government, and, as Mr. Tim Healy said, "Under-Secretaries do not resign; they wait until they are fired." That was rather a cynical observation of Mr. Healy. But the Home Secretary must recall that one of his first declarations after he became Home Secretary,

  1465
  on the Elections and Jurors Bill, was that he intended to implement all the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. That was stated quite categorically, and further quotations were given by the right hon. Member for Woodford this afternoon. What are the excuses given by Ministers for the breach of faith and the departure from the agreed recommendations? The Lord President has repeated, time and time and time again, that Parliament is always free, and his back benchers have apparently been much comforted by that thought. Of course, Parliament is always free. Parliament is a sovereign body; it can repudiate the National Debt tomorrow if it pleases.
  Mr. Stokes: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Peake: The hon. Member is free to advocate that course, and if he can persuade a majority of us to support him, that result will follow.
  Mr. McKinlay: And the American Loan as well.
  Mr. Peake: We are not discussing the rights of Parliament. What we are discussing are the duties and the personal honour of Ministers. The freedom of Parliament to do what it pleases does not mean that individual Members, whether Ministers or not, can repudiate their personal obligations; it cannot justify Ministers in going back upon their word; still less can it justify them recommending their followers to support their own dishonour, and then driving them into the Lobbies to enforce it.
  The Home Secretary has put forward two quite different excuses for the breach of faith relating to the university seats, the City of London and the business vote. And, be it noted, both these excuses assume a continuing obligation. He says, first, that although he said he would implement all the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference he is not slavishly bound to fulfil the obligation in every particular—
  Mr. H. Morrison: That is true, anyway.
  Mr. Peake: Surely, the whole point about debts of honour is that we are slavishly bound to fulfil them in every particular; that is their special peculiarity. In the second place—and this also
  1466
  assumes a continuing obligation, an obligation continuing after the General Election of 1945—he maintains that his back bench supporters would not have allowed him to honour his obligation. On two occasions, both in Committee and on Report, we have had it said to us that back bench Members would not have allowed the right hon. Gentleman to honour his obligations. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said in Committee, referring to what my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gains-borough (Captain Crookshank) had said:
  "He said it should have been the duty of the Lord President, the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself, to have brought in a Bill which slavishly followed the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, and that when my hon. Friends who were not Members of the last Parliament said to us, 'We do not like this Bill, we want to carry out the long-declared policy of our party to abolish the university seats and to deal effectively with the problem presented by the City of London,' we should have said to them, 'You vote in our Lobby.' At once they would have been accused of being Lobby fodder."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th March, 1948; vol. 448, c. 2143–4.]
  The right hon. Gentleman advanced the same argument upon the Report stage. I really think that the Home Secretary takes too low a view of his own supporters. I think he underrates them, and insults them, if he thinks they would not have respected him for at least making an attempt to carry out his honourable obligation.
  The hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) tried to find some comfort in what happened at the Speaker's Conference of 1916, and in the proceedings upon the Representation of the People Bill of 1917. Let me deal quite shortly with that. At the Speaker's Conference of 1916 there was never a unanimous view upon any of the major issues. Every important issue which came before that Conference was the subject of a division in the Conference, and sometimes it was a very close division indeed. The Government of that day, however, acting, as I think, rightly and honourably, embodied in their Bill every one of the majority recommendations of the Conference, but, equally rightly and with equal judgment of what was the fair and proper thing to do, wherever there had been a division in the Conference they did not put the Whips on to enforce the majority view upon the minority of the House.
  Mr. Bing rose—
  Mr. Peake: If the hon. Member will allow me to finish this part of my argument. I will then give way. That cannot be claimed as any precedent for what the Government are doing today, because today the situation is entirely different. The Speaker's Conference of 1944 came to a series of unanimous agreements without a single dissenting voice. The Government are just as much bound, and in fact they are more bound than the Government were in 1918, to endeavour to secure implementation of the agreements arrived at. Moreover, in this case, seeing that these agreements were unanimous and binding on all political parties, it would have been the duty of the Government to try and enforce them by putting on the Whips, because in this case there was no dissenting voice in the Conference. But the right hon. Gentleman has not given Members an opportunity on these matters at all, because he has never put these agreed measures in his Bill, and therefore the question of whether there should be a free vote or not has never arisen.
  Mr. Bing: I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to mislead the House. If he looks at the speech of Lord Birkenhead, he will see that the one decision that was unanimous was the decision in favour of proportional representation. Does he deny that that agreement was repudiated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford, who was in a position to speak on that and did not do so, and is he now in a position to offer any explanation?
  Mr. Peake: I have read through all the proceedings of the Conference of 1916, and I am quite clear in my own mind. I shall be ready to apologise if I am wrong, but my recollection is quite clear. There was a party of diehards at that Conference who would agree to nothing, and I am quite convinced that upon all important issues in that Conference a division was taken.
  Mr. Bing: Perhaps I can settle the point by reading what Lord Birkenhead said.
  Mr. Peake: The hon. Member cannot settle the point like that.
  Mr. Bing: Lord Birkenhead said:
  "I find that whereas the Committee only recommended by a majority that the vote
  1468
  should be given to women, and in circum stances which will certainly require most careful consideration of the Committee when we approach that part of the Bill, the recommendation in favour of proportional representation was an absolute recommendation of the Commissioners.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT 12th June, 1917; Vol. 94, C. 798.]
  Mr. Peake: What the hon. Member has quoted does not in any way bear out the contention he has made. There is no suggestion of a unanimous decision. All he tells us is that it was an absolute recommendation, whatever that may be. Presumably, there was a majority; it was carried by a majority, and that is the reason the Government of that day allowed a free vote of the House upon all those issues. But have the present Government allowed a free vote of the House on any of these issues? On each occasion when the Government have sought to dishonour the agreement made in 1944, they have sent out a three-line Whip, and put the Whips on. Can the hon. Member for Hornchurch defend that on any precedent whatever? Of course he cannot. I say that the least the Government could have done would have been to have allowed a free vote of the House on all these matters, so that Members opposite who support university representation would have been free to express themselves in the Division Lobby. What results from the policy of the Government upon this matter? It is this: that discredit, like everything else must, if possible, be equally shared. If it cannot be equally shared it must be as fairly shared as possible.
  What are the excuses put forward for the addition of the 17 seats in the big boroughs? Ministers have been very shy about accepting responsibility for the proposal to add 17 seats. The Lord President of the Council, in the Debate on 24th March, continually referred to the proposals of his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. He spoke of the recommendations of his right hon. Friend. He was very shy, quite unusually shy, about claiming the authorship of these proposals. But when the Home Secretary wound up the Debate, he was equally modest. He did not claim originality for the proposal to add 17 seats. He referred us to a decision taken by the Cabinet; he "passed the buck" back to the Cabinet, although it had been handed to him by his right hon. Friend the Lord President.

  1469
  The excuses put forward for the addition of these 17 seats are as follow: first, it is an endeavour to get nearer to "one vote, one value," and bring the county quota for England closer to the borough quota. If the county quota for England is to be brought closer to the borough quota, why not apply the same principle to Scotland and Wales, where the differences between the borough and county quotas are far wider than they are in England? It seems rather late in the day to start to alter the rules after the umpire's verdict has been given.
  The Home Secretary seems most conveniently to forget that he came to the House on 13th December, 1946, with a Bill to enable us to gut farther away from the principle of "one vote, one value." The whole purpose of the Bill he then introduced was to get rid of the 25 per cent. limit on the variations from the quota, to get rid, as he said, of the harsh, unyielding, mathematical formula which had been laid down by his predecessor, the present Lord President of the Council. On 13th December, 1946, we were asked to weep for certain large boroughs which, under the Boundary Commissioners' proposals of that time, were to have wards lopped off them. The right hon. Gentleman said that these large boroughs would far rather be under-represented than suffer in this way, and he came forward with proposals which got rid of the 25 per cent. limit of variation. The whole purpose of that Bill was to get farther away if we could from the principle of "one vote, one value," and the right hon. Gentleman knows that perfectly well. He only thought of this excuse ex post facto for the addition of the 17 seats.
  As a second excuse the Home Secretary says that Scotland and Wales are over represented and England ought to have more seats. That was debated at length at the Speaker's Conference, 1944, and it was debated again in this House in the Autumn of 1944. The Lord President himself will be well aware that we had that Debate, and he must also remember that the present Secretary of State for Scotland and the present Minister of National Insurance, speaking for Scotland and Wales respectively, told him from this side of the House that if he did not maintain the existing degree of overrepresentation for Scotland and Wales, he must expect a row.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I have not had a row.
  Mr. Peake: The right hon. Gentleman says he has not had a row. He ought to have had one. I was going to observe that the present Secretary of State for Scotland always spoke much better sense when, in the last Parliament, he was on this side of the House.
  I regard this proposal to add 17 seats as a deliberate affront to the impartiality of the Boundary Commission. We shall now have to wait five years for a further review to secure an equitable scheme of redistribution, that is, if the Commission are prepared to act again after the way they have been treated.
  What is the real reason for the Government's action? It is transparently clear. They know they cannot win the next Election on a fair and equitable redistribution. I referred in one of my earlier speeches—and I apologised to the Lord President of the Council for my ignorance—to a certain Mr. Shepherd, chief agent of the Labour Party. The right hon. Gentleman informed me that that gentleman had been ennobled and that in 1946 he went to another place. That left the Labour Party temporarily without a flockmaster, but I am informed that Mr. Shepherd's crook has been handed on, and it is now wielded by a gentleman named Mr. Windle.
  There is no doubt that the Lord President is in almost daily touch with the chief agent of the Labour Party and I have no doubt that a conversation took place between the right hon. Gentleman and Mr. Windle. Probably the Lord President said, "What is this Bill going to cost us, Windle?" To which Mr. Windle replied, "Thirty-five seats"—whereupon the right hon. Gentleman came down to the House and invited us to deplore the disappearance of all the old pocket boroughs and said, "Heaven alone knows what is going to happen to my dear old friend, the Minister of Labour." I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman has been advised that his chief agent of the Labour Party cannot guarantee that they will again get a majority, as they did in 1945, with a bare minority of the votes cast. Hence these devices and tricks to try to make good the loss and the unfair advantage which the Socialist Party enjoyed at the last election.

  1471
  I said just now that the Secretary of State for Scotland talked better sense in Coalition days, when he was in Opposition, than he has done as a Minister. Let me conclude with a short quotation from a speech which he made in this House on 10th October, 1944. Speaking of the Speaker's Conference in 1930, he said:
  "The last Speaker's Conference"—
  that was the Ullswater Conference of 1930—
  "was abortive, because the Members and parties which took part in it took the view that they must have all or nothing, and this philosophy of 'all or nothing' is really the philosophy behind dictatorship. That is that whether it is a majority or a minority, it is going to bind its will on the rest of the people. It is an essential of democracy that these should be consideration of and acceptance of the reasonable propositions of minorities, and that compromise is the essential result of discussion. Our discussions would be quite futile if the majority were always to dictate its will and suppress the minority. We might as well abolish the Parliamentary system.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th October, 1944; Vol. 403, c. 1623.]
  The majority in this House now are riding roughshod over the minority in this matter. Their trickery will not save them from defeat or from the doom which awaits them, but will rather contribute to it. These pathetic attempts to queer the pitch and to rig the market will not avail them. From millions of leaflets and a thousand platforms the people shall know of their dishonour. When we return to power the necessary steps will be taken to see that political bargains are honoured and that the standards of our public life are restored.
  9.28 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): We have been debating an Amendment to the Motion for the Third Reading of the Bill. The Amendment recites that, in the judgment of the official Opposition, they recognise
  "the necessity for an equitable scheme of redistribution,"
  but they object to the Bill on the grounds that it
  "repudiates agreed recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference, 1944, and disregards for the purpose of party advantage the findings of the Boundary Commission, thereby bringing discredit on Ministers of the Crown and lowering the traditional standards of our public life."
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Well, it is quite right that the Opposition
  1472
  should applaud the terms of their own Amendment.
  I have listened to pretty well the whole of this Debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Oh, yes. Hon. Members should not raise that point at all. I have had reports upon the remainder of it. I am bound to say that I do not think that the Opposition have succeeded in any way in establishing the allegations made in the Amendment to the Motion for the Third Reading. Quite frankly, there is only this difficulty in replying to the Debate, that we have heard it so often before. [An HON. MEMBER: "You will hear it again."] I dare say. It was complained that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary did not adequately, or possibly did not at all, reply to the last series of complaints about a breach of faith. We had it on the Second Reading, we had it on more than one issue on the Committee stage, we had it on the Report stage, and we have had it on Third Reading. With great respect, there really is a point, especially when one has not the slightest consciousness of being guilty—as we have not—at which it becomes rather boring. To tell the truth, that point of being bored arose quite a time ago, and I do not at all blame my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, Who is the author and the champion of the Bill, if, as time went on and the charges were monotonously repeated without any adequate evidence for them, he began to disregard them.
  I am sure that the whole House, irrespective of party, will agree with me in expressing the thanks of all of us for the ability, the courtesy and the patience with which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has conducted the various stages of the Bill. We have spent a long time on the Bill, I think quite rightly, and the Committee stage was taken on the Floor, I think quite rightly, because it is an important constitutional Measure. We have devoted a good deal of time to it, and my right hon. Friend has had pretty heavy labour on it, together with other legislation for which he is responsible. I am sure that everybody would wish me to express the thanks of the whole House to him for his consideration and courtesy. I am not speaking of his opinions—opinions are another matter—but, as always, he has been considerate, able and courteous in conducting the Bill through the House.

  1473
  The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition nailed his colours to the mast and told us that if and when the Conservative Party returned to power they would hold themselves free—indeed, he went further and declared his intention—to bring in legislation which would confine these reforms to the limits of the Speaker's Conference recommendations of 1944. We have always been seeking for declarations of Conservative Party policy for the future, and I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's entry, for once, into the field of specific undertakings as to what his party would do if and when they were returned to power. He is coming along, because a week or 10 days ago he declared that he was not in favour of making any material declarations of policy as to what a Conservative Government would do. He was just warning off his right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) for messing about with the Industrial Charter, of which the Leader of the Opposition is obviously not too fond. He said he was against being committed to any details of policy for a Conservative Government if it comes into power, but we now have this detail of policy in the field of electoral legislation.
  What does this declaration of the right hon. Gentleman mean? It means that the business vote—not the double business vote of the voter and the spouse, but the original business vote—is to be restored. Let that be understood. This is declared to be an issue of the next Parliamentary General Election. The restoration of the original and basic business vote—that is to say, property voting as property voting—is the official policy of the Conservative Party. O.K. by me—except that we do not agree with it—but as a matter of electoral tactics that is fine, that is Conservative policy. It is their intention that although the City of London, the ancient City of London, for which, as the House knows, I have much sentimental regard—[HON. MEMBERS: Oh."] Yes, I have—and historical feeling, both as a Londoner and as a Parliamentarian—[An HON. MEMBER: "Of the wrong kind."] It means that the Conservative Party now declares that although the residential electorate of the City of London cannot be more than in the region of 4,000 or 5,000, the Conservative Party will restore one Member of Parliament to the City of London for 4,000 or 5,000 electors.
  1474
  That is item No. 2 of the constructive policy of the Conservative Party. Certainly it is their firm intention to restore the 12 university Members. That is to say, they will confer upon the universities of the country, with which we certainly have no quarrel—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We have no quarrel with the universities, none whatever, and they have no quarrel with us. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I will show hon. Members opposite. As a matter of fact the Vice-Chancellor of Oxford was quoted as being against the university provision in this Bill. I accept that such may well be the case, but do not let it be said that there is a state of war or friction between the Labour Government and the universities of our country. The Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University has said this:
  "I do wish to say how grateful we are, as I imagine all other universities are, for the far-sighted and unprecedented generosity which has been shown to us by the Government in finance, and that without any attempt to interfere with academic freedom. No Government before has shown anything like the appreciation of the value of universities as the present Government. As one who doesn't always come to heel at the crack of Mr. Attlee's whip, I should like to express my admiration and respect for your leader and our Prime Minister. I have no fear for the future of England while such men are at the helm, men whose honesty of purpose and singleness of mind are so universally recognised as his."
  Let the Opposition get away from these delusions that there is a state of conflict and of war between the Labour Party and the universities.
  Mr. Churchill: What was his name?
  Mr. Morrison: I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, who has been so eloquent about university representation, should be so abysmally ignorant that he does not know.
  Mr. Churchill: I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, who has at last found a eulogy that he can read out with so much gusto, had not even taken the trouble to find out the name of the man who wrote it.
  Mr. Morrison: Now the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely in the soup, because I do know the name, and I will now enlighten the right hon. Gentleman at whose ignorance of our cultural and university life I am shocked. It is extraordinary that I, the humble product of

  1475
  the School Board for London, should have to teach the right hon. Gentleman. The name of the Vice-Chancellor of the University whose words I have quoted, is Professor Stallybrass.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what was his name before it was Dr. Stallybrass?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not see that there is any obligation, even on the Leader of the House of Commons, to know what everybody's name was before it was what it is. If I may say so, I am hardly the appropriate Minister for that kind of business. That falls to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  Going on to this list of constructive policy of the Conservative Party, it means that they are determined, as part of their electoral policy next time, to stand for the restoration of the university seats. That means they propose to give, if they get the chance, a special privileged position to persons who have had a university education. We have no prejudice against people who have had a university education. As has often been pointed out, quite a proportion of Ministers on the Treasury Bench and of my hon. Friends on the back benches have had a university education. Let me say that we are all keen that a reasonable and proper proportion of the people—working class as much as any other class—who are mentally fitted for a university education should have the chance of that education. Therefore, we have no prejudice against university education as such.
  What we do say is that because a person has had a university education and has attained the status of a graduate, he should not, therefore, have a second and additional vote for Parliament, special representation in Parliament, and a special representation based upon a constituency electorate much smaller on the average than anything to be found in any other class of constituency. We say that this whole conception is antediluvian, cut of date, silly, prejudiced, and based on class superiority—or, at any rate, intellectual superiority—and ought to be abolished.
  Mr. Churchill: Why did the Lord President of the Council agree to it?
  Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman need not be apprehensive that I shall avoid that, which is, indeed, the main point of the Debate. I wish the Debate had been about the Bill but it has been about something else, and I will come to that something else in due course.
  Of course, this declaration of policy on the part of the right hon. Gentleman means that the restrictions on motor cars are to be removed and that motor cars without limit shall be one of the tests of electoral power. Presumably the 17 seats which have been referred to will be liquidated.
  Mr. Churchill: The right hon. Gentleman should not say that. I carefully confined my statement to what we should do if we had power, which is a hypothetical issue. I carefully confined it to the university representation. As to a general re-shuffle of the situation, that can only be undertaken when another Redistribution Bill comes before us.
  Mr. Morrison: On that point I would make two observations. One is that I took a note of the right hon. Gentleman's words. They were that the Opposition would not be bound by anything beyond the Speaker's Conference Report of 1944 and that, therefore, the rest would be repudiated when they took power, and they intended to eliminate it. I quite agree it is disputable and arguable whether or not that is intended with the 17 seats. The other list is good enough for me, and I say it was a shocking declaration of sheer Tory reaction—
  Mr. Churchill: To which the Leader of the House agreed.
  Mr. Morrison: —which is well worthy of the reactionary tendencies that have characterised the political life of the right hon. Gentleman over many years.
  The right hon. Member for North Leeds (Mr. Peake) went over very much the same ground, but he had a tussle with my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing). His defence of the 1916 Speaker's Conference situation was that the recommendations were not unanimous. I think he implied that that was the general rule, that they were not unanimous, if indeed he did not go so far as to say that none of them was unanimous. I want to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch

  1477
  He made one of his very able speeches, and it was well documented. I warn the right hon. Member for North Leeds to be careful about crossing swords with my hon. Friend because he has a remarkable speed in the Library in looking things up from time to tame. My hon. Friend has given me the OFFICIAL REPORT of the House of Commons of 12th June, 1917, in which it is reported that Sir Frederick Smith, later Lord Birkenhead, said this:
  "The Commission arrived at a conclusion which was unanimous, with one single exception."
  Mr. Peake: It was not unanimous, then.
  Mr. Morrison:
  "That exception war the question of the female franchise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th June, 1917; Vol. 94, c. 797.]
  That is a very different account from the account of the right hon. Gentleman who either said that it was not unanimous about nearly everything or that it was not unanimous about anything, whereas Lord Birkenhead, who was knocking about at that time in 1917, and who is likely to be right, said that they were unanimous about everything with the exception of the question of the female franchise.
  Mr. Pickthorn: What is the Commission to which Sir Frederick Smith was referring? It was not the Speaker's Conference, presumably.
  Mr. Morrison: I gather it was. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I cannot see what else it was. [An HON. MEMBER: "Look it up in the Library."] [Laughter.] It is no good hon. Members laughing unless they know what they are laughing about. There are references here to Mr. Speaker being responsible for the body. I have only just had this Report put into my hands.
  Mr. Bing: This was the first and the only Speaker's Conference up to then, and it was referred to by Lord Birkenhead, possibly with that inexactitude which one expects from the other side, as "the Commission."
  Mr. Morrison: So it is quite clear that the right hon. Member for North Leeds was entirely wrong in his historical facts. But suppose he had been right. The Opposition ought to make up their minds on what is their line of argument. When we say in respect of the franchise and
  1478
  electoral reforms of 1929 or 1928, or thereabouts, there was no Speaker's Conference, they say "Ah, there was no disagreement; therefore, a Speaker's Conference was not necessary." If, on the other hand, it is argued that the Speaker's Conference disagreed, then the argument is, surely, the other way round. The Opposition hops about from one argument to another—as to whether it is unanimous as to whether there is agreement or disagreement. The fact is that they are attaching far too much long-scale historical importance to the existence or the non-existence, the acceptance or the non-acceptance, of a Speaker's Conference. So far as I know, there have been only two Speaker's Conferences on this matter. One was the Speaker's Conference over which you, Sir, so ably presided in 1944, and the other was the Speaker's Conference set up in 1916, which led to the Representation of the People Act of 1918. I do not think there were any others. They were both set up in time of war; they were both set up by recommendation of Coalition. Governments to Parliament.
  Mr. Peake: The right hon Gentleman seems to have forgotten the Ullswater Conference of 1930.
  Mr. Morrison: That was not a Speaker's Conference.
  Mr. Peake: An ex-Speaker—
  Mr. Morrison: An ex-Speaker's Conference is not a Speaker's Conference, as the right hon. Member knows, and it is silly to make the point. Historically, therefore, I am right in saying that there have been only two Speaker's Conferences, so far as I remember—and I am open to correction. The other great franchise reforms have been carried through by the Government of the day on their own responsibility, sometimes despite great party conflict and sometimes, I agree, by agreement between the two Houses.
  Indeed, it is the case that there is nothing new in charges of bad faith. It seems, indeed, to be a fairly common characteristic of debates about electoral reform bills. For instance, when Mr. Disraeli, who was a great Conservative leader, was passing his Reform Bill in 1867, which I think he introduces on the responsibility of the Government of the day, without any Speaker's Conference,

  1479
  there was a Mr. Low, who was a well known Radical, I think, of that day, who described this Bill in these terms—and they remind me of something of the language which has been used today. This was used against Mr. Disraeli:
  "Never was there tergiversation so complete. Such conduct may fail or not; it may lead to retention or loss of office; but it merits alike the contempt of all honest men"
  Mr. Churchill: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Morrison: Well, all right. Here breaks out the old Liberal who could not forswear a declaration. It was also the case that Lord Cranborne, an earlier Lord Cranborne, who was later Conservative Prime Minister as Lord Salisbury, called the same thing a
  "political betrayal that had no parallel in out Parliamentary annals, and that struck at the very root of that mutual confidence which is the very soul of our party Government "
  All this abuse of the unhappy Disraeli did not prevent him from again becoming Prime Minister, did not prevent him from again becoming the idol of the Tory Party, with Lord Salisbury his own chief colleague in party battles. The truth is that there is a good deal of nonsense about it.
  With regard to the 17 constituencies, it is alleged that my right hon. Friend invented them, having been egged on, incited, bullied, by the present Chancellor of the Duchy. Far be it from me not to let the Chancellor of the Duchy have any credit to which he is entitled in this matter, because it was a creditable operation and nothing for him to be ashamed about, but there were other minds than the mind of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at work on this, including that of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary himself, but as a matter of fact—[Interruption.] The Opposition are really out of their depth when they get within the domestic hierarchy of the Labour Party. Those of my hon. Friends who had a recent association with a certain telegram know much more about the hierarchy of the Labour Party than they do. They had better try to understand their own hierarchy first, before trying to understand ours. The Home Secretary referred to his intention—I will not say his "intention" but to the possibility—that his mind was open to consideration of certain modifications
  1480
  in the Bill as he introduced it. He said about some of these constituencies established with more than 80,000 electors,
  "They are too big for one Member upon a mathematical basis, and too small for two. They undoubtedly give rise to an anomaly. I have no doubt that, in the course of our proceedings, we shall hear something about them and about other constituencies where the average rule appears to have been departed from."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th February. 1948; Vol. 447, cc. 841–2.]
  That was a clear intimation to the House that he was willing to consider the arguments and representations in Committee. Therefore, I say that there was here no departure from the general line which he pursued.
  I would say a few words about the alleged breach of faith. The issue really is perfectly simple. The war Government over which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford presided, and of which the Prime Minister and I and others were Members, agreed that a Speaker's Conference should be set up if Mr. Speaker were willing to preside over its proceedings; and you, Sir, kindly did, and we expressed our thanks at the time. The parties were represented on a fair, proportional basis, and the Labour Party, I agree, was considerately treated. The Conference met and deliberated. In the course of the discussions accommodations were made. That is one of the things the British are good at.
  Mr. H. Strauss: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Morrison: Yes, and it is very fortunate for our country that they are. Some people conceded some things, other people conceded other things; and they sought to arrive at general agreement.
  Mr. Strauss: They did.
  Mr. Morrison: They achieved remarkable success. The whole of the agreement was based upon the intention that it was accepted by the representatives of that particular Parliament. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Certainly, that Parliament. The proposals became the subject of consideration by the Government of that time. It never entered the mind of either the Prime Minister or myself—I assure the House that this is so, although hon. Members may say we were wrong if they like—it never entered our minds that this report was anything other

  1481
  than a guide to the Parliament and the Government of that day. The agreement was to run up to and to last until the Dissolution.
  Mr. Churchill: Quite untrue.
  Mr. Morrison: If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford had not been in such a hurry to dissolve Parliament, some further legislation might have been passed in that Parliament. But as all the ground had not been covered, we have had to cover the rest of the ground in this Parliament. I say there was no intention, no undertaking, specific or implied, that we were permanently committed in any particular to what took place then. I affirm in the second place that it would have been constitutionally monstrous if we had sought to commit an entirely different Labour
  Party, another Government and an entirely different House of Commons. I entirely repudiate, with sincerity—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and with conviction and with indignation—I entirely repudiate—these allegations of dishonour and of bad faith. We are not conscious of them. We do not deserve them. In all the circumstances, I ask the House by a great majority to pass this great scheme, this great Bill for constitutional reform.
  Mr. Churchill: I would only place on record my conviction that what has been stated as to what happened in the National Coalition Government is quite untrue.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 338; Noes, 193.

  Division No. 243.]

  AYES.

  [10.0 p.m.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Cocks, F. S.

  Gallacher, W.

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Coldrick, W.

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Collindridge, F.

  Gibbins, J.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon A. V.

  Collins, V. J.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Gilzean, A.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Attewell, H. C.

  Cook, T. F.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.)

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Cove, W. G.

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Crawley, A.

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  Ayles, W. H.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

  Daggar, G.

  Grey, C. F.

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Griffiths D. (Rother Valley)

  Baird, J.

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  Balfour, A.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  Barstow, P. G.

  Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

  Gunter, R. J.

  Barton, C.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Guy, W. H.

  Battley, J. R.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Deer, G.

  Hale, Leslie

  Belcher, J. W.

  de F eitas, Geoffrey

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Benson, G.

  Diamond, J.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Berry, H.

  Dobbie, W.

  Hardman, D. R.

  Beswick, F.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Donovan, T.

  Harrison, J.

  Binns, J.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Haworth, J.

  Blackburn, A. R.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Dumpleton, C. W.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Durbin, E. F. M.

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Dye, S.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Hicks, G.

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Edelman, M.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Holman, P.

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Bramall, E. A.

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Horabin, T. L.

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  House, G.

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

  Hubbard, T.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

  Ewart, R.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G.

  Fairhurst, F.

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Burden, T. W.

  Farthing, W. J.

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Burke, W. A.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Callaghan, James

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

  Carmichael, James

  Follick, M.

  Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Foot, M. M.

  Janner, B.

  Chamberlain, R. A.

  Forman, J. C.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Chater, D.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St Pancras S. E.)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Jenkins, R. H.

  Cobb, F. A.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon H. T. N.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Stokes, R. R.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  O'Brien, T.

  Stubbs, A. E.

  Keenan, W.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Kenyon, C.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Swingler, S.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Orbach, M.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  King, E. M.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Symonds, A. L.

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Kinley, J.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Kirby, B. V.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D.

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Lang, G.

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Thomas, John R. (Dover)

  Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

  Pearson, A.

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Peart, T. F.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

  Tiffany, S.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Popplewell, E.

  Timmons, J.

  Lever, N. H.

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Titterington, M. F.

  Levy, B. W.

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Tolley, L.

  Lewis, J. (Bolton)

  Price, M. Philips

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Logan, D. G.

  Pryde, D. J.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Longden, F.

  Pursey, Comdr H.

  Viant, S. P.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Randall, H. E.

  Walkden, E.

  McAdam, W.

  Ranger, J.

  Walker, G. H.

  McAllister, G.

  Rankin, J.

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Rees-Williams, D. R.

  Warbey, W. N.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Reeves, J.

  Watkins, T. E.

  McGovern, J.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Watson, W. M.

  Mack, J. D.

  Rhodes, H.

  Weitzman, D.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Richards, R.

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Robens, A.

  West, D. G.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

  Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gb, E.)

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

  Royle, C.

  Wigg, George

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Scollan, T.

  Wilcock, Group-Capt C. A. B.

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Segal, Dr. S.

  Wilkes, L.

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Shackleton, E. A. A.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Marquand, H. A.

  Sharp, Granville

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

  Shurmer, P.

  Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Messer, F.

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Millington, Wing-Comdr E. R.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Willis, E.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Wills, Mrs. E. A.

  Monslow, W.

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

  Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.

  Moody, A. S.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Morley, R.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

  Wyatt, W.

  Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Yates, V. F.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

  Snow, J. W.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Moyle, A.

  Solley, L. J.

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Murray, J. D.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Nally, W.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Neal, H. (Clay Cross)

  Sparks, J. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Steele, T.

  Mr. William Whiteley and

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Mr. Robert Taylor.

  NOES.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Challen, C.

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Amory, D. Heathcoat

  Channon, H.

  Duncan, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (City of Lond.)

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Eccles, D. M.

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col G.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Cole, T. L.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

  Baxter, A. B.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

  Corbet, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Bennett, Sir P.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Fox, Sir G.

  Birch, Nigel

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Crowder, Capt. John E.

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Gage, C.

  Bower, N.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  De la Bère, R.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Digby, S. W.

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr, J. G.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

  Donner, P. W.

  Graham-Little, Sir E.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

  Grant, Lady

  Carson, E.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Gridley, Sir A.

  1484

  1485

  Grimston, R. V.

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

  Harden, J. R. E.

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

  Robinson, Roland

  Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Harris, H. Wilson (Cambridge Univ.)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

  Salter, Rt. Hon, Sir J. A.

  Houghton, S. G.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Savory, Prof. D. L.

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Scott, Lord W.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Marples, A. E.

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

  Herbert, Sir A. P.

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Maude, J. C.

  Spence, H. R.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Medlicott, Brigadier F.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col M.

  Howard, Hon. A.

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

  Moore, Lt.-Col Sir T.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Hurd, A.

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cir'cester)

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Neill, W. F. (Belfast, N.)

  Teeling, William

  Jarvis, Sir J.

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Nicholson, G.

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

  Kendall, W. D.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Turton, R. H.

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Odey, G. W.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Langford-Holt, J.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Wakefield, Sir W. W.

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Osborne, C.

  Ward, Hon G. R.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

  Lindsay, K. M. (Comb'd Eng. Univ.)

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

  Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

  Pickthorn, K.

  White, Sir D. (Fareham)

  Linstead, H. N.

  Pitman, I. J.

  White, J. B. (Canterbury)

  Lipson, D. L.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Prescott, Stanley

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Low, A. R. W.

  Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl

  Lucas, Major Sir J.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

  York, C.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Raikes, H. V.

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon M. S.

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn and

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

  Mr. Drewe.

  McFarlane, C. S.

  Renton, D.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  POLICE PENSIONS REGULATIONS
  10.10 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Younger): I beg to move,
  "That the Draft Police Pensions Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 10th June, be approved."
  The House will remember, from the Debates which took place on the Police Pensions Measure, that it is necessary for the new regulations to come into force at the same time as the National Insurance Act and the other social legislation. These regulations will replace all the existing legislation, except in so far as it applies to pensions already granted to ex-policemen. They cover a considerable range of persons in the police force—regulars, the police reserves and a number of other categories—and, read together with the 1948 Act, they will apply a comprehensive code. It is because they cover many categories of people that they
  1486
  are rather lengthy and to some extent complicated. In general, they follow the White Paper which was published when the Bill was introduced, subject to certain additions to meet undertakings given during the passage of the Measure.
  Members will recollect that under the Act there is to be consultation with the Police Council before regulations are made. That has been observed, and where the recommendations of the Council have been unanimous, these recommendations have been incorporated in these regulations. Where they were not unanimous, and where they raised issues of principle, my right hon. Friend has not attempted to prejudge the issue by determining it himself, but has thought it better to leave the issue over for full consideration by the Committee, which, as the House knows, was appointed under the chairmanship of Lord Oaksey to examine the whole field of police pay and pensions. In those cases the provisions of the existing law have been maintained, but that does not mean that they are

  1487
  not still open for discussion; they will undoubtedly be examined in detail by the Committee. A number of safeguards were put into the Act to safeguard the position of serving members of the Police Force, and they were put in at the wish of the House. Naturally, in bringing forward these regulations, all these safeguards have been fully brought into effect.
  I will sketch a broad outline of the scope of these regulations. Part I describes the scope of the regulations, the classes which are to get pensions, the circumstances under which they are to get them, which authority is to pay them and so on, and the subsequent parts deal with all these issues in greater detail. Part II relates to retirement and disablement, and leaves ordinary pensions for long service and ill-health broadly unchanged, subject to necessary adjustments for the pensions of new entrants when they qualify to receive pensions at 60 or 65 under the National Insurance scheme. Reductions, in that event, are made, but at the biggest rate of reduction it still leaves the pensioner better off than he is under existing police pensions law. The combined pensions which he will receive—the reduced police pension and benefits under the National Insurance scheme—always total more than the police pension which he now receives under the existing law.
  There is only one regulation in Part II to which I need refer specially, and that is Regulation 7, which deals with supplemental pension for a policeman injured on duty. Under the present law there are two scales of special pension—the so-called accidental and non-accidental. This matter was referred to the Committee of the Police Council, which unanimously recommended that the two scales should be replaced by one scale lying, in amount, almost midway between the two scales. This new scale will be found in the first schedule and Part IV of that schedule. There are certain other adjustments necessary in respect of a man injured on duty, which have to be made to take account of the National Insurance Industrial Injuries Act, the benefits of which will be available in future to members of Police Forces.
  Part III deals with awards on death, that is to say, to widows and children
  1488
  and dependants, and by Regulation 18—this is a matter to which the House attached particular importance at the time of the Debates on the Bill—there are increases over existing widows' pensions. Also, the so-called pre-1918 widows, who have no pension, are brought in for the first time in pursuance of the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. The pensions for existing widows will be brought up to 26s. where the widow's position is substantially the same as one whose pension under the Contributory Pensions Act is being increased under the new scheme. In general, the effect is that widows will get what they would have had if their husbands, police officers, had been insured under the Contributory Pensions scheme. They will further benefit from the single-scale special pensions to which I have already referred, because the family only get a special pension if the death of the police officer was non-accidental, that is to say, was subject to the higher rate. Now they will get it in all cases where death results from injuries on duty.
  Part IV sets out the service which is to count for calculating pension, and there is not much change in that. Part V relates to contributions and, again, there is little change, except that adjustments are made corresponding to the adjustments in the value of the pension to take account of the National Insurance and Industrial Injuries schemes. This is one of the matters on which the Police Council were not unanimous, and it will be for examination by the Committee on Conditions of Service. The remaining Parts, VI to X, have very few alterations of substance from the existing law. There was only one point of controversy which, again, was not agreed by the Council, and that was Part IX, which related to the ages for compulsory retirement. Proposals were put up for higher ages and some for lower ages, and my right hon. Friend thought it best to leave this matter over for the time being.
  I do not think I should take up the time of the House in going through this lengthy and detailed scheme. Already there have been a number of meetings of the Police Council to consider details and there has been a wide measure of agreement. There have been issues on which no agreement has been reached,

  1489
  but I suggest to the House that it is best that outstanding issues should be thrashed out with the general problems of police conditions. As the House knows, the appointment of the Committee examining that matter was brought forward, and has begun work earlier than it had been originally intended. I hope the House will agree that these controversial issues should be left in that way. Subject to that, the House will find this a satisfactory code which shows a measure of improvement over the existing law. Therefore, it is proper that these regulations should be approved to come into force on 5th July.
  10.21 p.m.
  Mr. Grimston: I have one or two points to raise on the draft regulations, I do not know whether we are to discuss the Scottish regulations separately, but my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) is going to raise one or two points which may be peculiar to Scotland. It will be remembered that when we were discussing the Police Pensions Bill recently, we secured a provision that the rights of all those who were already in the Police Force on the appointed day should be safeguarded in the Bill. In so far as they touch upon the points and carry through that undertaking, we welcome these regulations. There are one or two other points to which I wish to refer, but I should add that what the Under-Secretary has said about various matters being left over for considering afresh has somewhat modified my attitude towards the regulations.
  The first point I want to mention is one which cropped up during the passage of the Bill. It is that whereas the present members of the Police Force can opt whether they continue to contribute for the full police pension and also draw full benefits under the new National Insurance Scheme, entrants who come into the Force after these regulations come into operation will not have that option. They will only be allowed to take the lower police pension after the age of 65. It is true it will give them a slight advantage, but they will not be given the option of taking the full police pension plus full benefits under the National Insurance Scheme. Representations have been made to me that those rights should still be offered
  1490
  in full to new entrants, and I very much hope that this is one of the matters left over for consideration by the Committee.
  The second point I want to make is in regard to the complexity of the provisions governing widows' pensions. Here I hope we shall get some information from whoever answers on behalf of the Government. It will be remembered that after the Second Reading of the Police Pensions Bill a very strong feeling was expressed by police forces up and down the country, about their conditions of pension being embodied in an Act of Parliament and there was considerable apprehension that their pension provisions would come in the future under regulations which could be altered at the most by affirmative Resolution of the House. The Home Secretary met that point to a large extent by putting on the Statute Book that which it was originally intended should be done by regulations.
  Bearing that in mind, I want to come to the question of provisions for widows' pensions under these regulations. If I am wrong in the view that I am putting forward, I hope I shall be corrected. I imagine that when a man joins a police force, he wishes to know with as much certainty as possible what his pension and his widow's pension will be. If the House will refer to page 40 they will see a scale of pensions laid down there, the ordinary pensions for widows. If I read the scale aright, for an ordinary constable the widow's ordinary pension will be at the rate of 11s. 6d. a week. That appears to be all that the constable will know for certain about what his widow will get. It is true that a larger pension may be awarded, but that is left to the discretion of the police authority. I feel that the 11s. 6d. is too low and that the basic figure of which the widow should be assured should be higher. If we read on we shall find that the most that can be got in the way of extra allowance for children is 5s. 5d. a week.
  This matter needs to be looked at further, bearing in mind the background which I have sketched, that the police want to know as far as possible the pensions that they and their dependants will get and that as little as possible shall be left to discretion. That is why such a display of feeling took place on the part of police forces when the Bill was introduced.

  1491
  I must be frank and say that I think the provisions relating to widows are most complicated and that it is extremely difficult to find out to what the widows will be entitled.
  There are one or two other points, not of such importance, which I wish to raise. One is with regard to the special pension for widows. I take it that the most a widow could be awarded would be one-third of the constable's pay at the time of his death. I think that in the case of Police Constable Edgar that was the award that was made. There is provision that in certain circumstances a widow may be given a gratuity instead of a pension. It is true that her consent would have to be obtained for that course to be taken. In what circumstances is it envisaged that the police authority could offer a gratuity in lieu of a pension? Under Regulation 33A no service before the age of 20 is to be counted as pensionable. This point has been raised before. I find it difficult to understand why service before that age should not be reckonable and I should like to hear something about it.
  There is a further very small drafting point. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at page 37, at the bottom, and at Part III, paragraph 2, he will see reference to:
  "a person, who immediately before he retired and was granted a pension, was paying contribution at the rate specified in paragraph Regulation 42."
  The right hon. Gentleman will see a printer's error there. It should read "Regulation 41,"because Regulation 42 refers to cancellation, revision and reduction of pensions. The error should be corrected in the final draft. The same thing occurs on the next page, where the reference to Regulation 42 is obviously a printer's error and should be corrected.
  I do not wish to detain the House now, because I am very glad to learn that these regulations are not to be regarded as final. I agree with the Under-Secretary that they are an improvement, but when we have regard to the fact that the police forces up and down the country are under strength, particularly in the Metropolitan Police Force, I do not be lieve these regulations go far enough to attract recruits. But, as the hon. Gentleman said, the whole of service conditions
  1492
  are being discussed. I hope that as a result of these discussions we may see further improvement of these regulations. It is not our intention to do other than make our comments, and I shall be glad in due course to have a reply to the points I have raised.
  10.32 p.m.
  Mrs. Braddock: I had hoped that the Under-Secretary would have detailed some of the differences that have arisen on these regulations with the police themselves. I know that Lord Oaksey's Committee is still dealing with the question of these regulations, of additions and alterations to them, but perhaps if the Under-Secretary had given us more detail of the very important differences that still exist, I might not have had to make the various comments I propose to make this evening. The police themselves are very thankful for the tremendous improvements that have been made in regard to pensions and pensionable service in these regulations, but there are one or two matters which they consider are of major importance and require further detailed consideration.
  First of all, I would like to refer to the comment made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Westbury (Mr. Grimston) on the fact that service for pensions counts only from the age of 20. If a man joins the force at 19, his pension does not start to count until he is 20 years old, unless he has an accident and receives a pension for injuries. The position is that a man who has been recruited at 19 has exactly the same sort of work to do and is given exactly the same responsibilities as a man at 20. Those of us who have been interested in the question of the very meagre arrangements made in the past are very concerned to know how that arrangement is arrived at, how it is possible that a man joining the force at 19 is given complete responsibility and has to serve 12 months for nothing, so far as pension is concerned, and only has his 12 months counted if he is unlucky enough to have an accident. That has given concern to the Police Force generally.
  I wish next to refer to page 16 and to the question of ex-Police War Reserve. This body as defined in the paragraph is allowed to count war service as service

  1493
  for pension. Service in the Armed Forces of the Crown should also count as approved service for pension. In the majority of instances it was not a matter of choice whether a man joined the Armed Forces or the Police War Reserve. Men who wanted to join the Police Force and were directed into the Armed Forces now find themselves in the position of having three years' less pensionable service than men directed into the Police War Reserve. The men feel that, because they had no option and were directed into either the War Reserve or the Forces, the same conditions for pension should apply to both. Then there is the case of men who are now joining the Police Service from the Palestine Police, who are allowed to count their service in that force for pay purposes. For example, one man may have served in the Palestine Police, and another in the Armed Forces of the Crown in Palestine, both performing similar duties. The Palestine Police was a semi-military body, Men who served, in these two bodies in Palestine are now coming into the police forces of this country on two different scales of pay. That is another matter about which the police are concerned, and it is one which I think should be looked into further.
  Then there is the very important question of the police having, after 5th July, to contribute to the new National Health Service at the rate of 4s. 11d. weekly. A man who, as a police recruit, receives wages of £5 5s. 0d. a week, has a reduction of 55. 3d. made from his earnings for pension purposes, and on top of that, after 5th July, there will be a further deduction of 45, 11d. It is a very important matter. These men earning £5. 5s. 0d. a week are going to have a deduction of 10s. 2d. a week made for pension purposes generally. But the position is even worse than that, because a policeman is never unemployed. Therefore, he is never in a position to draw unemployment pay, and the 2s. which is credited for the purpose of unemployment pay has to be paid by the policeman during the whole of his service, though at no time can he draw any benefit for that 2s.
  Those of us on Watch Committees who have been considering this matter feel that something ought to be done about that. It is awkward, at the moment, to
  1494
  get recruits for the police forces, and if the men coming in on a wage of £5 5s. 0d. a week find that they are compelled to pay 10s. 2d. a week—part of this going to the Police Pension Fund and the other part to the State fund, some of the benefits of which he cannot draw from the State bcause he will not be unemployed—then that is making the position even more difficult in regard to recruiting. There is the further question that the police are entitled to sickness pay as police officers, and they cannot draw from both the police and the State funds. If they are sick and are off duty, although they have to contribute and make this weekly payment of 10s. 2d., they cannot draw both the State sickness benefit and benefit from the local authorities. That again, is a question which is giving concern to the police generally. I understand that there have been discussions on this matter, and that there has been no agreement, although suggestions were made whereby this difficulty would have been overcome. It has been suggested that the superannuation contribution of 5 per cent. might be reduced to 3 per cent., because of the duplication of payment and the fact that the police officers cannot draw benefit from both funds, although they are bound by regulation and by their service to pay to both funds.
  Then there is the section on compulsory retirement, which appears on page 24, in paragraph (1) of Regulation 54. The point is the difference between the time when men in the Metropolitan Police are allowed to retire, and the age-limit which applies to men in the local authorities' forces. The men in these latter forces are feeling that, because of the better conditions which are being suggested for the police in the London area, recruiting in the London area will be faster, and will consequently be detrimental to recruiting to the police forces of the local, authorities. Nobody can suggest that places where there are big dock areas, such as Liverpool, are easy areas for the police; duties there are very exacting, and the duties of the Metropolitan Police cannot be much heavier. The suggestion that the retirement age, which is going to be earlier in the Metropolitan area, should cover the whole of the country instead of differentiating between London and the local authority police, should be considered.

  1495
  I think that that covers the questions which the police themselves are considering; they are anxious not to hinder the progress of the regulations which will improve their conditions, but they think there are a number of items which should be taken into consideration. I am certain that, had the Under-Secretary given an indication that these features, where there has been great dissension in the discussions with reference to the regulations, were under review, and if he had given the assurance that these things on which we have not been able to agree were not forgotten all concerned would have been happier. There is complete disagreement between the Home Office, on the one hand, and the local authorities, on the other, on some points, and I hope that we shall have the assurance that these will be considered carefully and will be the subject of a detailed report.
  10.42 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Williams: It is so seldom that I find myself even in partial agreement with the hon. Lady who has just sat down that I feel I really must get up and say how glad I am, personally, that she did put some of these points which are concerning the minds of the police at the present time. I shall not attempt to enlarge on any of those points except that of unemployment benefit because, unless a policeman is sacked he is not really very likely to take the benefits. On the other points which she brought in, I hope that the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary will go into these very carefully because it is only right that we should, when dealing with the police forces today—forces which render such great service to the community and are suffering under the grave difficulty of shortage of manpower—do everything we can to make their position as easy as possible. Therefore, in the few remaining words which I will permit myself, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to do better than he is doing in these regulations. I hope that he will recognise that, on this side of the House at any rate, there is a feeling that we should get a little bit closer to the difficulties of the police than we have done at the present time. I would just like to say how glad I am to see that the Home Secretary is in one of his more receptive moods at the present time.
  10.45 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I should like to thank those who have taken part in this discussion for the interest they have shown in the welfare of the police force, an interest which I share, and I can assure them that I am exceedingly anxious that as quickly as possible, all these outstanding points shall be dealt with and embodied in regulations that will be presented to the House by positive Resolution as these present regulations are presented tonight. It is, of course, essential that there should be a body of regulations in existence by 5th July. That is why these regulations have been laid at the present time and why I am asking the House to confirm them tonight.
  I think they carry out all the precise pledges I gave during the passage of the Police Pensions Bill through the House. Where agreement has been reached on the Police Council, whom I am bound to consult with regard to them, I have embodied the agreement in the regulations. But there are some matters, including those which have been mentioned by the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Grimston) and the hon. Lady the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) on which it has not been possible to arrive at agreement on the Police Council.
  This might have led to a prolonged delay but for the fact that the Committee under Lord Oaksey, appointed a few weeks ago, is now charged with the duty of considering all these matters, and I have no doubt that where there is a difference, the Police Council, or one or other of the bodies representing serving policemen, and the local authorities or possibly the Home Office, will be able to submit to the Oaksey Committee their various, points of view and we shall get the advantage of the recommendation of the Oaksey Committee with regard to them. I have no doubt that in a good many cases we shall be able to regard that as a suitable arbitration on these matters which otherwise, in some cases in the past, had dragged on for years and years without its being possible to get the two parties into agreement.
  I cannot please on some of these matters both the hon. Member for Westbury and the hon. Lady the Member for

  1497
  the Exchange Division. The hon. Gentleman wants to see everybody granted the right to full duplication if desired. The hon. Lady has pointed out what that will involve for some of the recruits to the Police Force at five guineas a week. It would mean them having a very considerable deduction from their pay.
  Mr. Grimston: May I say I only asked for the option; whether they wish to do that or not.
  Mr. Ede: That is a point upon which I shall seek the guidance of the Oaksey Committee.
  When we come to the question of unemployment pay, I could not recommend that the police should be exempt from paying their contributions. After all, if we are to have universality, it must include the police as well as other people. One cannot run a scheme of insurance if one excludes all the best lives. Here is a body of men who are assured from the very nature of their employment that they are not going to suffer unemployment. That makes them very good lives from the point of view of the unemployment part of the scheme. Just as at least no honest person insures against fire in the hope that he is going to have a fire—
  Mrs. Braddock: What I was going to say was, I do not think that there is a grumble about paying. This is only a pointer to the position. The difficulty is that the person who is employed only pays 45. 11d. a week to cover all the benefits. But the police will be bound under these regulations, unless there is some alteration, with the possibility of obtaining benefit, to pay 10s. 3d. a week, and it is the difficulty there to which we have to draw attention, for they just cannot manage. There are points here where the men are entitled to take a point of view on the matter.
  Mr. Ede: I am not saying that the men are not entitled to take a point of view, but equally I am entitled to take a point of view, and I am trying to explain to the House one other reason that will have to be taken into account by whoever finally adjudicates upon this matter.
  1498
  The House, I know, is very interested in the circumstances of the police. It is anxious that everything shall be done that will make the Police Service one that is very attractive to the right type of man, and I am quite certain myself that the steady rise in social security in one form or another over the whole of the community has removed from the Police Force some of the attractions which their greater security had in the past, when large numbers of people were faced with great difficulties which are now covered by the various social insurance schemes. If we are to get the fullest recruiting I am quite certain that the Oaksey Committee will have to look at other things than social insurance to effect the necessary increase in recruitment; but it will be wrong of me this evening to do more, while the Committee are considering their proposals, than to say that I am awaiting their decisions with anxiety, because I do desire to make the position of every policeman with regard to his own service, and with regard to the possibilities for his widow, should he unfortunately die while in the service, quite certain for him and I have every reason to believe that the Oaksey Committee are well aware of the urgency of this matter.
  I do not put these regulations forward this evening, and my hon. Friend has not done so, other than as interim regulations which have to be put in at this particular stage because of the near approach of 5th July. I hope that as soon as possible, I shall be able to present fresh regulations to the House which will meet most of the points that have been raised tonight, and that they will be the considered view of my Department after getting the benefit of the advice of the Oaksey Committee, and I would not like it to be thought that anything I have said tonight indicates an unwillingness on my part to consider any of these details when the Oaksey Committee have had an opportunity of making recommendations upon them.
  Resolved:
  "That the Draft Police Pensions Regulations, 1948, a copy which was presented on 10th June, be approved."

  POLICE PENSIONS (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS
  10.55 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Thomas Fraser): I beg to move,
  "That the Draft Police Pensions (Scotland) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 10th June, be approved."
  These regulations are exactly similar to the regulations that have just been approved, except that there are three that are peculiar to Scotland. I do not think that I need weary the House by going over much of the ground that my hon. Friend covered in dealing with the first set of regulations, but perhaps I should make a brief reference to the three that are peculiar to Scotland.
  Regulation 33 is required because the rank of lieutenant is being replaced by the rank of chief inspector. The regulation safeguards the pension rights of widows and children of lieutenants who have retired before 5th July, and of existing holders of that rank who retire or die after that date while holding the rank of chief inspector. Regulation 41 gives members of the Orkney and Zetland Police Forces who are still serving on 5th July an option of counting as approved service all their whole-time noncontributory service prior to the dates on which the Police Acts were applied to these counties, providing always that they pay to the police authority the appropriate contributions in respect of that service. I should mention that the Police Acts were applied to Orkney on 15th January, 1938, and to Shetland on 29th May, 1940. Regulation 42 gives police-women in Glasgow who are serving on 5th July, and who were attested in 1924 after a period of unattested service, an option similar to that given to those policemen in Orkney and Shetland.
  10.58 p.m.
  Commander Galbraith: I think I am right in saying that this is the first time that matters such as those in these regulations have been dealt with in this way. Previously they have been dealt with by legislation passed through Parliament in the usual way. When we legislate by Act of Parliament more attention is called to the matters at issue, and I hope that these
  1500
  regulations will be given the fullest possible publicity so that they may be well known. We on this side do not welcome regulations in the place of statutory enactments, but in so far as these regulations improve the lot of the police we welcome them very much indeed. I was glad to hear the Under-Secretary allude to the provisions in regard to members of the police forces in Orkney and Shetland, and also the provisions applicable to certain policewomen in Glasgow which bring them within the scope of the pensions. I also welcome the power given to the police authorities to increase the pensions of existing police widows.
  There is one rather quaint thing upon which I should like an explanation. In the regulations for England and Wales provision is made regarding members of overseas police forces, but no such provisions are made in the regulations which apply to Scotland. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will say a word about that. My hon. Friend who spoke on the previous set of regulations referred to the case of the officer who was killed in the performance of his duty, and the provision which is made for the wife of such an officer. That takes the mind of everyone in the House back to the case of P.C. Edgar. In Scotland we admire very much the devotion to duty which is always shown by our police officers, and we feel that when these men are killed in the execution of their duty, there should be the most ample provision for their widows and children. In the case to which I have referred it was found necessary to supplement P.C. Edgar's pension from police funds, that is, from outside funds. I do not think that is right. Appropriate provision should be made so that these widows receive a full and adequate pension without having to call on any outside fund whatever.
  There are one or two other anomalies to which I would draw attention. Under Regulation 53 it is laid down that every gratuity payable shall be paid in one sum, provided that where a police authority are satisfied that it would be to the advantage of the beneficiary to pay in instalments, they may do so, and in such reasonable amounts and over such a reasonable period as they think fit. That is a reasonable regulation and no one would take objection to it, but

  1501
  Regulation 21 says that where a gratuity becomes payable to a widow under these regulations, then, if she subsequently remarries, so much of the gratuity as has not been paid before her remarriage is not paid unless and until she becomes a widow. Presumably that will mean that no widow will ever be able to get a gratuity in one sum however justifiable such a course may be in relation to her circumstances at the time when she claimed a gratuity. I think that that should be looked into. If the widow's circumstances are such that it would be to her benefit to receive a gratuity in one sum, then I believe it should be paid to her and should not be held over.
  There is another matter which I think really wants clarifying: at any rate, I should like to be enlightened about it. It is concerned with Regulation 34, which provides that a policewoman shall not be entitled to reckon as pensionable service any period during which she is on unpaid maternity leave. That seems to envisage paid maternity leave. If such a thing exists, what is the period of it and what are the terms and conditions on which unpaid maternity leave can be obtained?
  In Regulation 44, where an ill-health pension is to be paid, the police authority may consider:
  "… at such intervals as they may in their discretion think proper whether his disability has ceased."
  Then, under Regulation 49, medical questions are referred to a duly qualified medical practitioner selected by the police authorities. I would like to know whether the practice is to be that these questions are to be referred to the police surgeon? I have the greatest confidence in those officers but at the same time it might be more reasonable if they were referred to someone who had no official status in a police force.
  The last point I would like to deal with is one concerning Regulation 66, which deals with interpretations. It states that any reference in the regulations to a rank in the home police forces shall in relation to a member of an overseas corps be construed as reference to such rank in that corps as the Secretary of State may from time to time direct. What I would like to know is, what are the factors which determine the alterations from time to time and what procedure will be adopted
  1502
  to bring such changes to the notice of those concerned? We hope that these regulations will be generally for the benefit of the police and if that be so, then we warmly welcome them.
  11.5 p.m.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: I recognise, of course, that these are draft police pensions regulations which, as the Home Secretary emphasised in dealing with the English set of regulations, are of an interim nature, in order to prepare for 5th July. However, there are one or two points on which I should like some clarification.
  Paragraph 14 deals with a widow's special pension, where a man dies as the result of an injury received in the execution of his duty as a member of a police force, and under paragraph 12 a regular policeman is one:
  "who is entitled to reckon three years' pensionable service."
  Does that three years' condition in paragraph 12 apply in such cases as, for example, where a policeman on duty is killed, or injured and subsequently dies, in his first or second year's service? Does the widow not get the pension merely because her husband did not happen to have completed three years' pensionable service? In the Debate on the previous regulations the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) mentioned the question of the age of 20, and I think she was perfectly right, if I may say so. I have never been able to understand why a fellow of 19 who does his duty should not be just as well treated as if he were 20. Also, does the same provision apply to paragraph 23, dealing with children's special allowances, as applies to paragraph 12?
  Paragraph 15, which deals with gratuities in lieu of pensions, is a matter which interests a great number of people. Could this grant of a gratuity instead of a pension be made as a part gratuity and the balance to remain as a pension? Must it be a complete gratuity? Must it be a commuted pension in toto, or could it be partly a gratuity—to enable a woman to set up in a small shop or business with £1,000, or whatever the sum may be—with the balance paid as a small pension? Can it be part pension and part gratuity?
  Paragraph 17, dealing with the date of payment of award, says:

  1503
  "where her husband was in receipt of a pension and he dies during a period in respect of which he has already received his pension the widow's pension shall be payable at the end of that period."
  If he were drawing his pension on a weekly basis I cannot see that there could be any objection to that; but it is possible that he might be drawing it on a monthly or even longer basis, in which case what will the widow live on until the end of that period, when she begins to draw the pension? A little cash, particularly in the case of a death, is often very essential in a family of very small means, and I should like to know whether that is intended. If the period for drawing the pension is longer than a weekly period is there any chance of the widow getting some money earlier than, for instance the end of the month? My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok Division of Glasgow (Commander Galbraith) has already dealt with subparagraph (b), where the husband has received a gratuity. It is one year maximum; it must not be longer than a year before the widow gets the gratuity paid; but it is possible that the gratuity of her husband might all have been spent before his death, in which case it seems to me that she may be in very difficult circumstances, because delays in payment by Government Departments are not unknown—although I would not suggest they are intentional. That is a point on which we ought to be clear.
  Paragraph 21 concerns the termination of the widow's pension or gratuity in the event of her re-marriage. I wonder if that is quite fair. I have the feeling that that gratuity has been earned, and if she is happy enough to be re-married, is it really the right thing to say that that payment is to cease? I do not quite like it myself, and I do not really think it is reasonable. I am wondering whether it is really the intention of the Government to proceed with it, because it seems to me to be a little hardhearted, to say the least of it. The gratuity and pension will not be very great, and by re-marriage the widow will not probably become very rich; and as her first husband will have earned by his good service that pension for her, she ought to be allowed to continue to receive it, even if she does happen to marry again. I should rather like answers to these questions.
  11.11 p.m.
  Mr. C. Williams: It will be remembered by some hon. Members here that only yesterday I was severely reprimanded by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for not knowing everything about all the matters going on in Scotland. Therefore, I should like, in case I am questioned on the matter, to ask for some further explanation of paragraph 41. This paragraph applies to the Police Force in the Orkneys. I should like to know approximately how many men are concerned in it. I should also like to know how it is we have this separate police force for that part of the country. Those are two questions which I feel sure the hon. Member opposite will be only too glad to answer for the benefit of those of us on this side of the Border. I have a further question with regard to paragraph 41 (2, b). It will be noticed that it speaks of the "appropriate pension contribution," and it states that that means a contribution equal to 2½ per cent. of a man's pay up to 1926 and 5 per cent. afterwards. I should like to know for certain what proportion of the police were in service before 1926 and after, and what proportion are being paid 2½ per cent. and what proportion 5 per cent.? I imagine most of them, but it is a simple question, and I think it is only right that I should have this information about those matters.
  The fourth question I should like to ask arises out of paragraph 42. I admit that on this matter I am ignorant. That paragraph refers to policewomen in Glasgow only. There may be—I am sure there is—a good reason for that, but I think I might be told what it is, because I may be under examination on that point at any time by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who has urged me never to allow any of these matters to pass without my knowing all about them. So the House will know who prompts me to these inquiries tonight.
  Further, in paragraph 59 (5) there is reference to the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I am glad to see that there is fairly complete co-operation between the police forces in Scotland and the police forces in Northern Ireland. I take it that that is what the paragraph means, and I should like to be confirmed in my opinion. I am glad that under this subparagraph an exchange is possible

  1505
  between the two forces without any loss in contribution as far as pension is concerned. I hope—and I think I am correct it is the same in the English police forces. As the Under-Secretary for the Home Department is possibly more efficient than the Scotch Under-Secretary of State—
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Scots.
  Mr. Williams: That does not make him any the worse. I wish my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Perth (Colonel Gomme-Duncan) would not always assume that Scots people are worse than English. That does not necessarily follow. I should like to know for certain that there is a complete scheme for an exchange of members of the police forces of this country with the force in Northern Ireland so that there is an exchange of contributions for pensions, and that members of the Police Force in Northern Ireland will not suffer any disadvantage for coming over here. If I could have an answer to those questions I would feel much safer.
  11.15 p.m.
  Mr. Scollan: I should not have intervened at all but for one point of very great importance which should be cleared up. The point was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Perth (Colonel Gomme-Duncan) when he advocated that a widow of a policeman in the event of her re-marrying a policeman should be able to continue drawing the pension which she received on the death of her first husband, if he died as a result of an accident or injury received during his duties. If the Government agreed to that and the second husband also met with an accident or injury in the course of his duties, would the hon. and gallant Member ask the Government to award that widow a second pension? That kind of thing could be carried on ad infinitum, and I should like to know from the hon. and gallant Member how many pensions such a lady should receive.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: In reply to the hon. Member for Western Renfrew (Mr. Scollan), no doubt he will recall the Scriptures where it says that "the woman died also." I had not in mind the idea that this woman would go on marrying policemen indefinitely, for I had not thought of that. What I was really advocating was that if she remarried,
  1506
  it should not necessarily follow that she forfeits the pension her previous husband earned by his contributions.
  11.17 p.m.
  Mr. T. Fraser: I am able to speak again only with the permission of the House, but if that permission is forthcoming I will endeavour to answer most of the points if not all that have been raised. This is a complicated matter. I do not think I said it earlier, but I should like to say now that we have had long discussions with the Police Council in Scotland about some of the regulations. As the Home Secretary said in regard to the English Council, we were able to give effect to those proposals on which there was unanimous agreement. Where agreement could not be reached we agreed that the questions should be referred to the Oaksey Committee.
  Let me try to answer one or two of the points raised. The hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) mentioned the matter of overseas service. He pointed to the fact that there was a provision in the English regulations that did not seem to be repeated in the Scottish regulations. The reason for that is that overseas service will be reckonable under the Scottish regulations in the case of a man who has returned to a Scottish force before retiring. If, however, he retires overseas he will be pensionable under the English regulations. I am afraid that is so even though he went from a Scottish police force to the overseas police force and then retired whilst he was serving with the force overseas. The only justification I can give for that is that it would be inconvenient to have two sets of regulations operating in the countries overseas. So far as I am aware there have been no representations against that system.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman also spoke on the adequacy of widows' pensions and asked whether widows' gratuities were paid in one sum or paid by instalments, which were cut off if she remarried. A widow's gratuity is normally payable in one sum; it is payable in instalments only at the discretion of the police authority.
  Commander Galbraith: That applies to the widow as to the man himself?
  Mr. Fraser: Yes. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also asked about maternity leave. We do not have maternity leave in Scotland, because we do not at present have any married policewomen. They may have in England, but people do not want them in Scotland. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also asked me about the incapacitated policeman whose incapacity is reassessed by a decision of a medical practitioner; he inquired whether an independent medical referee would be brought in or a decision taken on the advice of the police medical officer. If there is an appeal against a decision, the Secretary of State is required to appoint an independent person or persons. That is contained in paragraph 2 of Regulation 50. The hon. and gallant Gentleman put a question on Regulation 66 (2). Foreign ranks differ from our own and, indeed, from one overseas corps to another, and we must have some provision for equating them should a police officer return to serve with a home force.
  I was asked about the position of the widow of a policeman killed on duty. Reference was made to Police Constable Edgar, who unfortunately lost his life recently in London, and to whose widow a special grant was made. These administrative arrangements, of course, will still be open. Hon. Members may deplore that it is necessary from time to time to make special grants in circumstances such as these but I think, when the time comes for making a special grant, most hon. Members would be glad to know that the authorities felt disposed to make it.
  Commander Galbraith: I do not think the hon. Gentleman has got my point, which was that this grant was made out of a fund not under the control of the police authority. That is what I understand, though I may be wrong. The grant was made by the Metropolitan and City Police Officers' Fund. They had to come to the aid of the widow by supplementing the pension which she had received by £48 a year for each child. That should not be necessary. It should not be necessary that some outside fund should be brought in to supplement the pension of a widow of an officer killed in the execution of his duty.
  Mr. Fraser: We have very considerably improved the provision for widows, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman conceded in
  1508
  the course of his remarks, but the Police Federation would like to have still better provision made. However, no agreement could be reached on this matter at the Police Council. It is one of the matters about which the Police Federation will undoubtedly make representations to the Oaksey Committee, and the Secretary of State will be obliged to give attention to any recommendations that the Committee makes.
  I think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Perth (Colonel Gomme-Duncan) asked whether the special pension to be paid to widows was subject to the same three years' qualification as the ordinary widow's pension. I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there is no minimum service requirement necessary before the special pension is paid. He also asked whether the gratuity could be paid in instalments. I have already said that it can. But he asked, further, whether part gratuity and part pension could be paid over a period. I think that would be impossible, and no such provision is made. Pension and gratuity stand separately. The gratuity is offered, and it is a case of all or nothing. It may be paid in a lump sum or, at the discretion of the police authority, in instalments.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Speaking as an Army pensioner myself, may I point out that I can commute my pension up to a certain amount and draw what the sum involved amounts to for the purpose, say, of starting a business; and at the same time I can continue to draw pension on a lower rate. If that can be done in the Armed Forces, I should have thought that it was equally simple for it to be done in the police forces.
  Mr. Fraser: Provision is not made for that at present. But there will be another occasion for making regulations and bringing them before the House. I will personally consider the matter in consultation with my right hon. Friend before we appear at this Box with regulations again.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman also asked about Regulation 17, inquiring whether a widow could have the pension for the period for which the husband has got his payment of pension, notwithstanding the fact that he died inside the period. The widow cannot, of course, if the husband

  1509
  is in receipt of a pension which is paid up to a certain period and he unfortunately dies before the end of the period. But the husband's pension is carried on to the end of the period. I do not think one would like to argue that the two payments should be made in respect of the same period.
  The other point which the hon. and gallant Gentleman made was with regard to the widow's pension continuing after re-marriage. We had not contemplated that it would be suggested that the widows' pension should, in fact, continue after she had re-married. I think it is generally appreciated that the pension is paid to enable the widow to live decently after the bread-winner has gone. If she marries again, and has another breadwinner, it seems to me that the need for the pension no longer exists. In any case, if there should be representations along this line, no doubt they will be put to the Committee on Conditions of Service, though I would not think there would be any case for making such special provision.
  Commander Galbraith: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, I would be glad if he could give me an answer regarding what is "unpaid maternity leave." He has said that we have not any married women police in Scotland. That may be the case, and I certainly do not wish to dispute it. But, on the other hand, this regulation lays down that they
  "shall not be entitled to count as pensionable service any period during which, being a woman, she was on unpaid maternity leave."
  I want to know what unpaid maternity leave is. For what period does it exist?
  Mr. Fraser: With regard to this provision in Regulation 34, I can only repeat that we do not at present have any married women in the police forces in Scotland, so the question of maternity leave should not normally arise. However, these words have aroused my curiosity. I do not know why they should have got into the regulations; I cannot understand it. But I do not think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would want to prevent the regulations going through. If he will allow me to have the regulations I will look at it, and perhaps will drop him a line about it later on.
  Resolved:
  "That the Draft Police Pension (Scot-land) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 10th June, be approved."

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE REGULATIONS
  Resolved:
  "That the Draft National Health Service (Superannuation) (Amendment) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 2nd June, be approved."—[MY. J. Edwards.]
  11.30 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. John Edwards): I beg to move,
  "That the Draft National Health Service (Transfer of Officers and Compensation) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 2nd June, he approved."
  Mr. Burden: I want to say, even at this late hour, that I am extremely disappointed that the Minister', in these Regulations, takes power to depart from the accepted code of compensation applicable to the local government service. It is a code of compensation set forth in Section 150 and the Fourth Schedule of the Local Government Act, 1933. This code, which resulted from more than 40 years of negotiations between the National Association of Local Government Officers and Other trade unions, and the Ministry of Health, is I venture to submit, now being definitely worsened. But, further than that, the Minister is breaking a pledge given by the Minister of National Insurance when the National Insurance Bill was under discussion. That Minister then said that the position of the Government, which was fairly clearly defined on the question, was that when the State, by its own action transferred functions, the State accepted liability for absorption or compensation. Later, that same Minister said that it was a principle which had governed Governments in the past in approaching questions of transfer of statutory functions.
  That is a fair and definite statement of fact. But the Minister could have gone farther. He could have recalled that this House, in 1921, with a predominantly Tory majority, imposed on the railway companies—undertakings of private enterprise—in the Railways Act, 1921,

  1511
  compensation provisions which, broadly speaking, were the same as those in the Local Government Act, 1933. I well remember the fight put up by the late William Graham to secure these compensation clauses, and I know, from personal experience so far as the railway salaried staff are concerned, that they have been simply invaluable because they compelled the railway companies during amalgamation to organise their business so as to avoid wholesale dismissals of the staff.
  It is to me a very bitter pill to swallow that, men and women through no fault of their own, are now to be deprived of office or suffer loss, arising from legislation, and be denied that full protection which even a predominantly Tory Government thought and considered to be necessary. I do not propose to detail the many ways in which the proposed regulations depart from, and worsen, what up to now there has been every reason to believe was a generally accepted code. I am bound to say, however, that the proposed regulations are not a very happy send-off for the new Health Service. They will cause bitterness and resentment. I have not the slightest doubt that the Minister must have his regulations before 5th July, but I beg of him not to close his mind to conciliation and adjustments. The associations representing the staff have every desire to be reasonable and to enter into friendly negotiations with the Minister, but they feel that under these regulations, as they now stand, there will be many who will get a raw deal, and it is in the interests of the new Health Service that I ask the Minister to take steps as early as possible to remove, so far as he can, what would otherwise be a sense of unfair treatment among members of the local government service. It is in that spirit and in that sense that I make a very urgent plea to the Minister.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I understand that the regulation relating to Scotland is in almost corresponding terms and perhaps it might, with the agreement of the House, be discussed at the same time.
  11.36 p.m.
  Commander Galbraith: That would be eminently satisfactory as far as we are concerned. I
  1512
  should like to recognise what the hon. Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Burden) has said in respect of the fair manner in which Tory Governments in the past have dealt with matters of compensation. Might I remind him that what is happening in these regulations is merely a continuation of what has taken place under the nationalisation Acts? People are being deprived by Acts of Parliament of their means of livelihood and in some cases they have not been offered any compensation whatsoever. That is very much to be regretted. I feel, in regard to these particular regulations, that they will have to be interpreted with very great humanity and very great sympathy for reasons which the hon. Gentleman has given, because they affect an enormous number of persons. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary could give us any idea of how many persons will actually be affected, but it is important that those who are going to be affected should be aware of the principle underlying the decision of the Government. Therefore, I want to put a number of questions to the Parliamentary Secretary.
  It is laid down that a claimant must have served eight years to be eligible for consideration. Can we be told why that period was chosen? Why was it not five years, or ten years or fifteen years? I hope the hon. Gentleman is not going to tell us that this standard is laid down because it is already applicable in some other piece of legislation because I would not consider that a good example. If there is a precedent, I should like to know when it first came into being and the reason for it. Then there is the question as to the choice of two-thirds of the net emoluments for the maximum amount for compensation or an interim payment while the claim is being finally assessed. Is there any precedent for this and if so, has it been usual for the maximum to be also the minimum, or was it only in the minority of cases that the maximum was paid?
  To get compensation the applicant must not have refused a reasonably comparable office. I would like to know who decides what a reasonably comparable office is. Is it to be decided in the courts, or where? I know very well that a tribunal is set up, but it seems to me that that tribunal fixes the amount of compensation and it does

  1513
  not seem to me to have any authority to deal with a reasonably comparable office. It may be that in that I am wrong, but I would be glad to know what the real interpretation is.
  Could the hon. Gentleman tell us whether or not there are to be many reasonably comparable offices available, or is it considered that the majority of those who are going to be displaced will have to look for other employment on their own? I think it is right, if there is no suitable employment available, that they should be required to look for other employment, but if they do, I should like to have some assurance that the proviso which is set down in the regulations will be reasonably interpreted, and not more severely than it is being interpreted at present in relation to those drawing unemployment benefit. I am glad to see that the older persons are to be treated rather more generously than others. I think it is laid down that older persons who are displaced are to receive some extra consideration by reason of the fact that those over 40 may be additionally compensated in recognition of their loss of future pensionable service. I would like to ask why the word "may" is inserted. It is going to cause considerable anxiety. Does "may" mean "shall" or does it not, and if it does mean "shall," I wish that that word could be there inserted.
  There is another rather strange thing about this regulation, and it is that while it shows consideration for the older people, it deals somewhat harshly with those who seem to be earning large salaries. Why is it that those with earnings of over £4,000 a year are ineligible for compensation? I should have thought that, no matter what a man's remuneration may have been, if he loses his job through the action of the State he is entitled to be compensated. I do not think that it alters my point of view in that matter that only a few people may be affected.
  Finally, there is the question which I raised on Part IV or V in connection with officers on war service. Will the officer on war service be entitled to have taken into consideration not only his position when he left his former employment but also such promotion or increment as he could reasonably have expected to receive but for his war service? I
  1514
  should be glad if the hon. Gentleman could answer those questions.
  11.44 p.m.
  Mr. Carmichael: I want to raise one or two points. I think some of them can be covered by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health, but others are purely Scottish. First, I want to associate myself with the observations made regarding the departure in the method of compensation. I am quite unconcerned whether it was a Tory Government or any other kind of Government which accepted responsibility in the past for compensation. My view is that when the State undertakes certain obligations, alters service, takes over personnel, and dispenses with certain people because it has no openings for them, the State should accept the full financial responsibility. It should not rest on any local authority at all. Having made that point, I think it will be admitted that the machinery which is being set up in regard to appeals and tribunals is reasonable.
  My worry is about the method of deciding compensation. The point has already been made by the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) in connection with the eight years. I do not know why eight years was decided on. I can see that it might be sound to take into account the number of years a person has been in the service, but it might also be necessary to take into account the method by which the employment was obtained. A person might be taken over by a local authority, or get employment, as a result of the local authority making representations to him. The authority might think fit to invite a person in private employment to accept employment with them because of his special qualifications, and some five years later, by some change of legislation, he might find himself denied the right of compensation. We might have some further explanation on that point.
  It has been argued in Committee and in the House that there would be very few officers involved, because the Government would take over a considerable number of the staffs from the local authorities, and others would be absorbed in local government work. That may be true, but there will be a certain number that will not be drawn off, otherwise

  1515
  there would be no discussion on compensation. It is argued that people should find other employment, and I understand from the regulations that it suitable employment is decided upon, then the compensation ceases. I do not know that there is anything unreasonable in that. They are being compensated because of unemployment, and it they find new work it stops. But I think very generous consideration should be given to these cases. The regulations lay down that it shall be "suitable employment." Who decides that? People who have served any length of time in local government work are specialists of a particular kind, and are not easily fitted into occupations outside local government or the Civil Service.
  I come to a special type of case that I think requires the attention of the Scottish Office. Some years ago the Glasgow authority—I think the only one in Britain—decided to have a full-time medical service under the Poor Law regulations. The entire duties of the medical people were confined to the aged and sick who were on the Poor Law. A number of them have been advised by the Glasgow authority that there is no employment for them under the regional hospital scheme, and none under the Scottish Office. Therefore, they will be redundant. These people come into a very special category. While they are fully qualified they are quite incapable at this late stage of stepping out into private practice, or of building one up even under the National Health Scheme. Serious consideration must be given to the position of these people. Some of them have at least 10 years' service, and to walk out into ordinary medical practice is not an easy task.
  My last point is this. Should people like these medical officers, or other local authority officers, find employment and make an effort to be self-employed, and in a short time discover that they are incapable of continuing in that occupation, what is their position in regard to compensation? I think it may well be argued that one will get a certain type of person who will deliberately avoid accepting a new place of employment unless he is quite definite that it is going to be permanent in every way. There will also be another type of person who
  1516
  will make a genuine effort to find employment as quickly as possible, but will discover before he is very long in the job that he is incapable of carrying on. I want to know what the position is in regard to compensation for a person of that kind. Some information on that point would clear the air and would be very advisable. There are many officers in the Glasgow area who are genuinely disturbed; their fate is hanging in the balance, as it were, and it we could clear the air on those matters, it would be very useful to the people directly concerned.
  11.52 p.m.
  Mr. Derek Walker-Smith: Like some hon. Members on both sides of the House who have spoken about these regulations this evening, I regret that they have taken the form in all respects that they have taken. These regulations could perhaps have been somewhat less ample and voluminous than they are if they had had a closer regard to the existing code of compensation in regard to the transfer of officers. This existing code, to which reference has already been made, is contained in the main, as the House is aware, in Section 150 and the Fourth Schedule to the Local Government Act, 1933. This Act was passed by a predominantly Conservative House of Commons. I do not say necessarily that that is the reason for continuing it or ascribing wisdom to it; but quite apart from that perhaps incidental circumstance, the code of compensation contained therein has the merit of being well understood, clear and equitable.
  I should be the last to argue that any existing codes or provisions are, as the laws of the Medes and Persians, unchangeable. In those circumstances the House will agree, and I should have thought that the Minister would have admitted, at least, that the onus is on him to justify departures from the existing code, more especially where those departures are, as they are in the main, unfortunately, in the present regulations, detrimental to the interests of those who through no fault of their own and by no choice of their own, are losing their employment or are being transferred to other employment. As the House is aware, the existing code of compensation for transferred

  1517
  officers is based on a system of 1/60th of the loss for each year of local government service with an increment of additional compensation On an ascending scale in relation to the length of that service.
  That is the system which might have been expected to have been followed in the regulations which are put before the House this evening, but under these regulations, as the House will see, there is no increment of that sort in respect of claimants to compensation who are under 45 years of age at the date of loss. That provision is contained in paragraph 9 (2, b) of the schedule to the regulations, on page 9 thereof. Though the age of 45 may seem comparatively young to the individually ageing Members of this assembly, it is possible, and indeed normal, in that service for persons having entered at the age of 18 to have had 26 years' service under these regulations without being entitled to any increment of the sort to which I have referred. But the new code contained in these regulations, not only reduces the amount of compensation in that way, but, as has already been mentioned, restricts the number and category of those who may obtain compensation at all. I refer there, of course, to the definition of "existing officer" in Regulation (2). The short point of that is that there must be at least eight years' service before the appointed day.
  Now, I echo the doubts expressed by hon. Members who have preceded me as to why that limitation should be imposed; and why, indeed, any limitation in respect of service should be imposed, because under the existing code an allowance is made for short-term service in the diminished compensation payable in respect of it. I should have thought that that was probably discrimination enough. Further, under these regulations no compensation is payable for diminution of emoluments if that diminution is less than 5 per cent. of the net emoluments, as defined in the definition Section of the Act. There may be some plausible case for suggesting that de minimis non carat the Minister; but, of course, in practice a diminution of, say, £20 in a salary of just over £400 to a man with family responsibilities is likely to be a considerable circumstance, and I think it regrettable
  1518
  that that provision is contained in the regulations.
  Regulation (11, b) contains the phrase that was criticised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith)—"reasonably comparable office." The claim for compensation is made by the provisions of Regulation (11, b) dependent on there being no offer of a reasonably comparable office in the Government service or local government service. My hon. and gallant Friend has pointed out the difficulty of defining that phrase "reasonably comparable office," which, so far as I know—although I am the last to claim any exhaustive knowledge of the statute law of this country—is a phrase not previously found in a statute. When we seek to consider how that will be interpreted in fact, and how that will be defined, we get very little assistance from the regulations. True, there is a proviso at the top of page 6, but that proviso is of negative assistance only, because all it does it to make it impossible for the officer to plead geographical inconvenience by way of showing that the office which he has not taken is not reasonably comparable to that which he has quitted. Therefore, the proviso, so far from enlarging the generous interpretation of the regulations for which my hon. and gallant Friend asked, in fact has the effect of narrowing them against the officer who is seeking compensation. This acceptance of a reasonably comparable office, even when it is given such a wide definition as in these regulations, is not made any easier by the difficulties of accommodation in all parts of the country, if people suddenly are asked to take an office in an entirely different part of the country.
  There are other points in the regulations to which I could refer, but I am conscious of the lateness of the hour, and I do not want to add any further particularity to what I have said. All I would say in conclusion is that, looking objectively at the provisions of these regulations—and we should not look at them otherwise—it would appear that the onus is not discharged as to why the existing and equitable compensation code has been departed from; and secondly, that in all matters of doubt and difficulty, it does appear from these regulations that the balance on each occasion has been tipped against the officers to be compensated.

  1519
  I echo the view already expressed, that that is hardly a worthy or desirable thing to find in these regulations. I hope the hon. Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Burden) was wrong when he said it would give rise to bitterness and resentment. I hope it will not do that. But even if it does not, that is no reason why justice should not be done in all these matters; and it does, after all, concern this House to see that that is done in these matters of the servants of the State or of local government.
  12.2 a.m.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: There is one point I should like to touch on which affects equally Scotland and England. I do not know which Minister is to reply, but either the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health can deal with this matter which was very lightly touched upon by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith). Elaborate arrangements for compensation are drawn up in these draft regulations, and as has already been mentioned, there is very widespread apprehension among officers who are liable to be transferred as to what the effect on them personally will be. That is a very general apprehension, as I know perfectly well in my own area, and I am sure other hon. Members know the same from their own areas.
  What I find is the greatest matter of apprehension is transference from a place where a man has a house, to a place where there is no house available for him. No matter whose fault that is, that is one of the most distressing things in the case of men transferred from one job to another, whether Government jobs or not. These regulations do not cover that matter, particularly the transference of Government officers from one place to another. I wonder whether anything can be done to add some measure of recognition of these immense difficulties of accommodation, in cases where men are compulsorily transferred with their families from one place to another.
  12.3 a.m.
  Mr. J. Edwards: I was somewhat disappointed to hear the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Burden). I really do
  1520
  not think that the effect of the National Health Service Act will be that a large number of people will get a raw deal. I shall be very surprised indeed if that is the result.
  Commander Galbraith: Would not the hon. Gentleman consider it unfortunate if a small number got a raw deal?
  Mr. Edwards: I was answering my hon. Friend's point. He implied that large numbers of people were going to be displaced and put out of jobs. I was saying that that was not likely to happen.
  Mr. Burden: I did not mention any number of any kind. I said some felt there would be a raw deal.
  Mr. Edwards: I am sorry. My hon. Friend's precise words were, "Many will get a raw deal." These compensation provisions lay down a new code which does, of course, take the place, over a wide field, of the old local government code. The new code is the result of very careful consideration in the light of present day circumstances. It should be remembered that the previous code goes well back into the last century. Looking at it from the angle of the Health Service, our great desire is to secure that all who can be usefully employed are not discouraged from being so employed. It is also a fact that a full employment policy makes sure that there are jobs available. Moreover, I would say that this code will apply to all transfers which are taking place with current legislation and which are already embodied in the arrangements for the transfer of the Fire Service. We shall do everything we can to ensure that claims do not arise, but I want to stress the point that there is a very great shortage of manpower in this field.
  Having said that, may I turn to some of the specific points that have been put. I would first say to my hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield that we have negotiated with the employee organisations, and he knows that the door of the Ministry of Health is always open to local government representatives be they of the association of authorities or the association of employees. The hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) asked me a number of specific points with which I will try to deal. I cannot give the exact number of people affected, but

  1521
  something of the order of 200,000 people are covered by these regulations as they stand at the moment. I agree with him that we must administer these regulations with humanity and sympathy, and our experience of the local authorities is that they have done well in the past. So far as the Minister is concerned, I hope he will be no less humane and sympathetic in his treatment.
  The eight-year period was in the nature of a compromise. Originally we thought in terms of 10 years. We modified that, for we wanted to have a test which would really mean that the people to be entitled to receive compensation would have their roots in the old employment. The two-thirds maximum is taken from the old local government code, and I am not aware of any compensation under the local government system where full compensation is made. This two-thirds was a conditional figure, and the maximum does not mean a two-thirds minimum. How close one goes to the maximum depends on the length of service.
  I was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Carmichael) and by the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok about "reasonably comparable employment." In my view, this is a matter which can be determined by the tribunal. I was asked about the requirement to take other employment, and I would willingly give an assurance that we shall not be more rigid than the present terms regarding unemployment benefit. I would also say that, in particular, in this matter of comparable employment we shall do our best so to arrange transfers and offer employment that there shall be the minimum of inconvenience and trouble to the persons concerned. We shall be happy to discuss that with the representatives of the staff associations.
  The hon. Member for Pollok asked me about added years and suggested that the word "shall" should be substituted for the word "may." He will appreciate that a number of circumstances have to be taken into account which are provided for in the regulations, and it must, therefore, be discretionary, but in all normal cases, disregarding those which are exceptional, it will be automatic. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also asked about the £4,000 maximum. What we are doing is to disregard amounts over £4,000 and
  1522
  this gives a maximum compensation payable of £2,750, which, I think, is enough. Though it may be said there is no need for a limit at all, I think compensation of that order is quite enough for most purposes. In regard to the point the hon. Gentleman made about war service, he can be assured that the emoluments will be based on what would have been earned on the job if the person in the service had remained at home.
  I think I have already dealt with the first point raised by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Carmichael). In respect of his second point, I would only say that I hope he appreciates that the compensation has to be finally settled within two years and the only circumstance under which the compensation, whether it is for working life or in respect of pension, can be altered is if the person comes back into public service of any kind. It is within this limited period of two years that any changes may be taken into account.
  The hon. Member for Hereford asked about added years. We have thought it right in the new code to provide for those over 45 because we feel that those under 45 in present circumstances, and certainly in this field we are discussing tonight, ought to be able to get employment, whereas the older the person gets the more difficult it may become. We felt we ought to step up the amount of extra compensation because of years of age. What seems to be important here is the age of a person rather than the actual years spent in the service. In respect of the 5 per cent., there are strong administrative arguments why we should not have to deal with large numbers of relatively small claims. The total amount is so negligible when worked out and allowance made for Income Tax, even on large salaries, that we felt we can disregard the amount under 5 per cent.
  I hope I have answered all the points put, except perhaps the Scottish points. I beg the pardon of the hon. and gallant Member for Perth (Colonel. Gomme-Duncan). With regard to housing, we must try to arrange offers of employment, having regard to difficulties like housing. These are things that we will discuss with the staff associations and we will do our best to be reasonable in any offers of employment to people who will be displaced.
  Mr. Rankin: In the case of an officer who may be transferred from the place where he lives, will the Department assume full responsibility for paying him for his accommodation in his new position?
  Mr. Edwards: That is not a point which can be settled in these regulations, but it is matter which ought to be discussed between the associations and the Department in considering conditions of service.
  Resolved:
  "That the Draft National Health Service (Transfer of Officers and Compensation) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 2nd June, be approved."
  Mr. J. Edwards: I beg to move,
  "That the Draft National Health Service (Superannuation) (England and Scotland) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 2nd June, be approved."
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: In this order, which I see applies to Scotland as well as to England, the most careful provision is made for cross-posting from England to Scotland and from Scotland to England and an elaborate scheme is set out so that nobody is to be the loser. Do these very careful arrangements portend that a very large-scale transfer between Scotland and England, and vice versa, is likely to take place under the new Health Service? If that is so, we would like to know what the extent of the transfer is likely to be. My second point is whether the hon. Gentleman could tell me what the price of the pamphlet mentioned on page 4 is to be?
  Mr. J. Edwards: I am sorry, but without notice I cannot answer the second question. Regarding the earlier question, I do not anticipate that there will be any large-scale transfer; but I expect that, as usual, there will be more transfers from Scotland than to Scotland.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: That is the whole trouble.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS
  The Lord Advocate (Mr. John Wheatley): I beg to move,
  "That the Draft National Health Service (Scotland) (Superannuation) (Amendment) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 9th June, be approved."
  Commander Galbraith: The House will remember that when the draft superannuation regulations for Scotland were debated, on 9th February, the Under-Secretary of State promised, in reply to points raised from this side of the House, that he would look into any case brought to his notice which arose out of the regulations. We on this side of the House feel particularly gratified that these amended regulations have been brought forward without any undue delay. I just want to recognise that fact. I think it is very satisfactory indeed.
  There is one other point I would like to mention. In the Debate in February, the Under-Secretary said that the principal Scottish regulations had been discussed with some 40 representative bodies, and a high degree of support for them obtained. But he also said that on one or two points the Department had not been able to go as far as it had been asked. Could he say how far it has gone to meet the points raised, and how far there are points which remain unsatisfied. If there are any further points outstanding, naturally we would help to deal with them at another time
  Resolved:
  "That the Draft National Health Service (Scotland) (Superannuation) (Amendment) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 9th June, he approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Draft National Health Service (Transfer of Officers and Compensation) (Scotland) Regulations, 1948, a copy of which was presented on 9th June, be approved"—[The Lord Advocate.]

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Glendale, a copy of which Order was presented on 21st June, be approved."

  1525
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Halesworth, a copy of which Order was presented on 21st June, be approved."
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Rye, a copy of which Order was presented on 21st June, be approved."
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Walsingham, a copy of which Order was presented on 21st June, be approved."
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Wellington, Salop, a copy of which Order was presented on 21st June, be approved."—[Mr. Younger.]

  ANGLO-AMERICAN COPYRIGHTS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Snow.]
  12.20 a.m.
  Dr. Santo Jeger: I wish to bring to the notice of the House the lack of protection accorded to British authors, whose books are published in the United States owing to the absence of a copyright agreement between the two countries. At present they only receive copyright if they are published simultaneously in this country and the United States, and if they are printed and bound, in other words, completely manufactured in America. The United States has some agreements with certain countries, but has no agreement on any line whatever with this country. Copyrights are safeguarded by a series of international agreements; there was the Berne Convention of 1886, which was modified by action in Berlin in 1908, and there was a further convention in Rome in 1928, and, under these conventions, copyright in each country is accorded to foreign authors on the same terms as to native authors.
  The United States was not, and is not, a signatory to any of these conventions. There have been serious anomalies recognised both in this country and America. Sir Stanley Unwin, formerly president of the British Publishers' Association, wrote a book in 1926 entitled "The Truth about Publishing" wherein he gave some interesting examples of the piracy of British books by some of the less reputable
  1526
  American authors. He described how a new American publishing firm went in for popular reprints of some of the old English classics, and mixed up with these, were books by living authors. Agents came to England and actually offered these publications to Unwins, who happened to be the original English publishers of the works. Sir Stanley referred to a book entitled "The Interpretation of Dreams" by Brill, who was a disciple of Freud, with which they interspersed chunks from another book by Freud himself. It was published as a new book by Freud, with a new title, and as an authorised translation by Eder, but neither Eder nor Freud knew anything about it.
  Section 33 of an Act which was passed by this House in 1911 took power, by Order in Council, to treat American publications in this country as British publications were treated in the United States; that is, it proposed a "manufacturing clause." American books were only to receive copyright in this country if they were printed and bound, and manufactured throughout in this country. Mr. Joynson-Hicks moved an Amendment that this Order in Council should be approved immediately. The Home Secretary at that time, Sir John Simon as he then was, thought that although the Government took the power in the Bill, they did not intend to use the power at once, but should wait until an appropriate moment and the suggestion was never acted upon. It was stated that it would have violated Article VI of the Rome Convention. We then went to the International Copyright Union and tried to obtain sanction from the Union to insert a protocol which would give this country power to act under Section 33 of the Copyright Act of 1911. In 1914 a protocol was added to Article VI of the Rome Convention giving power to this country to introduce a proviso on the same lines as the manufacturing clause in America discriminating against British authors and publishers.
  It is only the less reputable American publishers who go in for this kind of piracy, taking British books and not paying royalties. There is a considerable amount of American opinion which is rather ashamed of the attitude displayed in their copyright regulations, and many attempts have been made in the United States to get rid of this manufacturing clause in particular. The Authors'

  1527
  Society in America have made frequent efforts with the reputable publishers and with the British Association of Authors in order to take united and agreed action. There was a Bill introduced in America, the Vestal Bill, in 1931. That Bill was filibustered by United States radio interests. In 1935 Presidential action was taken and the United States was recommended by the President to join the International Copyright Union. As a result of his advice the Duffy Bill was introduced into the Senate but failed to pass the lower House. In 1936 another attempt was made and the Daly Bill was introduced into Congress, but again failed to get assent.
  It seems to me that not only can British authors and publishers benefit by a regularisation of the relationship between ourselves and the American Copyright regulations, but that American books and authors could benefit, too. The American author who has first published in the United States loses his copyright in all countries of the Copyright Union. The English author does likewise. The United States authors can get their copyright by publishing first in this country. In order to get copyright in other countries for its nationals the United States has had to make separate treaties. There are 46 countries in the Copyright Union, and the United States has made agreements with 36 of them. I admit that if we were to impose conditions of manufacture upon the Americans in the same way as they have imposed conditions upon us it would be a highly retrograde step, but if we were to act on the power we have given us by the 1911 Act and by the addendum to the Rome Protocol of 1914, and at the same time include the proviso that the Order in Council should lapse automatically at the moment America removes her restrictions against us it would remove all obstacles to a complete and free copyright agreement between the two countries. We would then have a general lifting of the cultural level of books in both countries and we could have books printed and published in both countries where at present owing to a limited public in both countries we can only have books which show no profit, or even a loss. If we were to get this discrimination against our authors removed we would at the very worst get a certain amount of dollars into
  1528
  this country, which are badly needed, and at the best we would be doing a great deal towards strengthening the spiritual and intellectual ties between the two great English speaking nations.
  12.30 a.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Belcher): I should like to say straight away that my hon. Friend has presented a reasoned case and he has obviously taken very great care to assemble the facts which are quite true as he has stated them. I agree that the situation as it exists at present is not satisfactory from the point of view of British authors. Although I do not believe that there is intentional discrimination on the part of the U.S.A. against British authors, the existing law in the U.S.A., particularly the manufacturing clause to which my hon. Friend referred, and their failure to adhere to the Berne Convention, does mean that there is discrimination against British authors which does not exist in the case of authors of other countries and to which there is no counterpart in our own country. It is because successive British Governments have recognised the unfair nature of the existing situation that, for something like a generation, we have been pressing the United States to come into the Berne Convention and thereby put our copyright relations with them on a more equitable basis. But all these efforts have been fruitless so far, mainly because of the manufacturing clause to which my hon. Friend has referred.
  I would like to indicate in detail what has been done by His Majesty's Government in the last two or three years to try to bring about some result. In June, 1945, after ascertaining the views of all interested bodies, and after consulting with all other Departments concerned, the Board of Trade put up to the U.S. State Department draft proposals for a bilateral convention on this subject drawn on the same lines as the Berne Convention to which my hon. Friend has already referred. So far as British nationals are concerned, the effect of these proposals would be to abolish registrations and manufacturing as conditions for securing copyright for other purposes in the United States of America. The immediate reaction of the U.S. State Department to this approach in 1945 was that the proposed convention would call for far reaching changes in the U.S. law and

  1529
  practice and would consequently require extensive consideration by the various governmental agencies concerned and we recognise that that is the case.
  In November, 1945, following a reminder, the State Department told us that considerable difficulties were being experienced in formulating the basis for a meeting, so far as meeting the wishes of the British Government was concerned, but they added at that time that it was hoped in a few weeks to submit a formula for our consideration, but we heard nothing further, however, until June, 1947. This is not the only country where delays take place in Government circles in giving consideration to proposals. We did not hear anything further until June last year when, after a further reminder, we were told that the U.S. Government were not yet in a position to give their views but that a newly created policy committee on international copyright was considering the matter.
  I have reason to believe at last that as a result of this Committee's consideration of this matter, it may be possible to begin talks between the two Governments in the very near future. I hope that that will be the case. I must confess that we are not very optimistic about the outcome. It would be wrong for me to mislead the House and the country into believing that, because we hope there is a possibility of starting talks in the near future, the outcome of those talks is going to be completely satisfactory from the standpoint of the authors and other interested people in this country. We are somewhat encouraged by the fact that U.N.E.S.C.O. is concerning itself with the question of copyright, with the ultimate object of a world-wide convention, and we hope that that in itself might have its influence on the attitude and actions of the United States of America.
  Our proposals would involve radical alterations of the United States copyright law, and we know their difficulties in that respect. So far as we are concerned, such radical alterations would not be required in our own law, apart from the issue of an Order in Council. The United States attitude is bound to be considerably influenced by the fact that they are likely to have considerable difficulty in changing the whole of their copyright law. My hon. Friend has indicated that we are under a handicap because, as adherents to the Berne Convention, we have
  1530
  international obligations which require that works first published in any convention country, or simultaneously published in any such country and in a non-convention country, are entitled to protection in all convention countries without further formality. United States authors can obtain coypright for their published works simply by publishing them in the United States and here, and in this sense publication means making them available to the public and does not mean manufacturing. That is an additional difficulty with which we are laden.
  I ought to say that although power is given under Section 23 of the Copyright Act of 1911 to restrict the rights given to works of foreign origin in cases where the country of origin does not give adequate protection to British works, this power has not been used, for this reason: we have felt that it would be better to try and get such countries—the United States is the example given tonight—into the Berne Convention, or alternatively to come to some bilateral arrangement with them. Had we used the power we possess under the 1911 Act against United States works, we feel that it would have made it almost impossible to get agreement, and that it might almost provoke retaliation. I should suggest that the fact that we have refrained, under very great provocation, from using the power we have, ought to be in our favour in view of the fact that we are going to have discussions in the near future with the United States authorities. I feel sure that the House will join with me in hoping that those discussions will mature in the very near future and that they will be successful.
  I feel sure that the restrained and responsible manner in which my hon. Friend has stated his case tonight will assist, and will indicate to our friends on the other side of the Atlantic that there is concern about this matter; and I hope that the reply I have given, setting out the steps we have taken, and the fact that we have refrained throughout these long years from taking the drastic action we could have taken, should all help in bringing about agreement between ourselves and the United States on what, I agree, is a very difficult situation.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes to One o'Clock.

AFRICAN COLONIES
  Local Government (Training)
  Local Government (Training)
  District Accountants, Uganda
  District Accountants, Uganda
  PALESTINE (REMOVED PRISONERS)
  PALESTINE (REMOVED PRISONERS)
FALKLAND ISLANDS
  Legislative Council
  Legislative Council
  Income Tax
  Income Tax
  BRITISH GUIANA (SUGAR WORKERS' STRIKE)
  BRITISH GUIANA (SUGAR WORKERS' STRIKE)
  FIJI (UNITED KINGDOM ADVANCES)
  FIJI (UNITED KINGDOM ADVANCES)
  BROADCASTING PROGRAMMES
  BROADCASTING PROGRAMMES
POST OFFICE
  Air Mail
  Air Mail
  Scottish Banknotes
  Scottish Banknotes
  Telephone Applications, St. Marylebone
  Telephone Applications, St. Marylebone
  Parcel Thefts
  Parcel Thefts
  Overseas Postal Services (Changes)
  Overseas Postal Services (Changes)
  DISABILITY PENSIONS
  DISABILITY PENSIONS
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Evaporated Milk
  Evaporated Milk
  Cooking Fat Ration
  Cooking Fat Ration
  Sugar
  Sugar
  Fish Prices
  Fish Prices
  Potatoes (Germany)
  Potatoes (Germany)
  Meat Distribution
  Meat Distribution
  East African Groundnut Scheme
  East African Groundnut Scheme
  Potato Prices
  Potato Prices
  Inspectors (Warrant Cards)
  Inspectors (Warrant Cards)
  Concentration Scheme, Northern Ireland
  Concentration Scheme, Northern Ireland
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Special Flights Party, Northolt
  Special Flights Party, Northolt
  Maltese Airmen (Marriage Allowance)
  Maltese Airmen (Marriage Allowance)
  Sir Hugh Walmsley (Speech)
  Sir Hugh Walmsley (Speech)
CIVIL AVIATION
  Associate Agreements
  Associate Agreements
  Airports, London (Pleasure Flights)
  Airports, London (Pleasure Flights)
  Anglo-French Agreement
  Anglo-French Agreement
GERMANY
  Bicycle Factory (Dismantlement)
  Bicycle Factory (Dismantlement)
  Premises, Peine (De-requisitioning)
  Premises, Peine (De-requisitioning)
  German Holdings, Switzerland
  German Holdings, Switzerland
  Blocked Moneys (British Subjects)
  Blocked Moneys (British Subjects)
  Financial Reform (British Property)
  Financial Reform (British Property)
  INTERNATIONAL WHEAT AGREEMENT
  INTERNATIONAL WHEAT AGREEMENT
  INTERNATIONAL RICE COUNCIL
  INTERNATIONAL RICE COUNCIL
  FOREIGN ASSISTANCE ACT
  FOREIGN ASSISTANCE ACT
  ARAB LEGION (BRITISH OFFICER)
  ARAB LEGION (BRITISH OFFICER)
GREECE
  Detained Persons
  Detained Persons
  Makronisi Camp Incidents
  Makronisi Camp Incidents
  JAPAN (AMERICAN TRADE MISSION)
  JAPAN (AMERICAN TRADE MISSION)
  BRITISH EMBASSY, BANGKOK
  BRITISH EMBASSY, BANGKOK
  GRENFELL FACTORY, ABERBARGOED
  GRENFELL FACTORY, ABERBARGOED
  SCOTLAND (LOCAL GOVERNMENT LAW, COMMITTEE)
  SCOTLAND (LOCAL GOVERNMENT LAW, COMMITTEE)
  ROADMEN, WARWICKSHIRE
  ROADMEN, WARWICKSHIRE
  PONTRILAS DEPOT (ASSISTED TRAVEL SCHEME)
  PONTRILAS DEPOT (ASSISTED TRAVEL SCHEME)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL, [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

SERVICE CHARITIES.
2.34 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask His Majesty's Government the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they have received any complaints that funds subscribed to Service charities are not being economically administered and suitably distributed.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, Service benevolent funds and Service charities are independent bodies, acting under their own trusts and charters. They are registered under the War Charities Act, and are required by law to publish annual reports and accounts. His Majesty's Government have no responsibility for the control or for the administration of the funds subscribed to these bodies. They are, of course, aware of the recent articles which have appeared in a Sunday paper, but they have not had any specific complaints addressed to them that these funds are administered uneconomically or are not suitably distributed. I think it would be appropriate to remind your Lordships that much effort and time are freely given by the members of the independent bodies which administer these funds, and I am sure that all of us who are interested in the welfare of Service personnel are grateful for the work they perform.
LORD MANCROFT: While thanking the noble Lord for that answer, the point
1152
of which I appreciate, may I ask this supplementary question? In view of those articles—they were strongly worded and included one by the late Secretary of State for War—which have caused considerable misgivings amongst those who otherwise would be subscribing to these charities does he not think that some explanation to the public as to the true state of affairs is now called for?
VISCOUNT HALL: I would repeat that this is not a Government responsibility. I am sure that those responsible for distributing these funds will take note of the question and the answer, and it will, of course, be open to them to defend themselves, possibly on the lines suggested by the noble Lord.
EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Lord whether his answer means that His Majesty's Government are satisfied, on the whole, with the general administration of Service charities?
VISCOUNT HALL: I said, in reply to the question, that His Majesty's Government have had no specific complaint from anyone as to the control of these funds——
EARL HOWE: Then the Government are satisfied?
VISCOUNT HALL: We have certainly no reason to be dissatisfied about the way the funds are administered.
LORD ROCHDALE: Arising out of the answer which the noble Viscount has given, may I ask, further, whether His Majesty's Government will draw the attention of those who look after these funds to this point? Now that His Majesty's Government are responsible under the National Health, National Insurance and Education Acts for many types of grants which previously were disbursed by these Service charities, the charities will now be in a better position to make bigger grants in other directions.
VISCOUNT HALL: May I again repeat that His Majesty's Government have no responsibility? No doubt, those responsible for the distribution of these funds are quite conversant with their duties under their charters.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: May I ask the noble Viscount whether his answer is to be taken to include the Army Benevolent Fund, as well as private regimental charities? If so, is it not a fact

1153
that the War Office have certain official representatives on the Council of the Army Benevolent Fund? And, if that is the case, would not the War Office consider instructing those representatives to take note of what has been said in this connection?
VISCOUNT HALL: I am afraid that I cannot deal with that question without notice. I do not know if there are War Office representatives on the Council of the Army Benevolent Fund.

EMIGRANTS' FUNDS.
2.37 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask His Majesty's Government the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether in view of the mounting evidence of hardships caused to intending migrants to Canada and their families, and in view of the very generous financial assistance given to this country by Canada, they are now prepared, in the case of those registered as intending migrants with recognised authority prior to the last announcement, to permit withdrawal of funds on the earlier scale.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, the answer is "No" We are, however, prepared to give the benefit of the old terms to emigrants who can show that, prior to April 9 last, they were financially committed in the expectation of being able to transfer the amounts then permitted, irrespective of whether they have been accepted by the Canadian authorities or not. Those not so committed can, of course, still emigrate on the same conditions as apply generally to new applicants.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, arising out of that reply, may I say that while it is a matter for limited satisfaction that some division will be made, the situation remains as it was in the majority of cases? May I ask the noble Viscount whether he will try to obtain material for a reply to the question which was put to him in the course of the debate on this subject in this House on May 26? That question was whether
1154
the matter was one dealt with by way of consultation with the Dominion Governments and the Government of the Province of Ontario, or whether those Governments were merely informed of the decision taken.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am afraid that I should require further notice of that question, which involves details which I have not before me. But, as I have said, our undertaking does apply to those financially committed prior to April 9 last.
LORD BARNBY: While again thanking the noble Viscount, may I point out that I pressed for a reply to this question in the course of the debate which I have mentioned? No reply was furnished then, nor has any been given since. Perhaps the noble Viscount will let us know whether those Governments were consulted, or whether they were merely informed.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I have every desire to give the noble Lord any information I can. Perhaps he will have a word with me as to the form, possibly, of another question. I have not the material from which to answer him to-day.
LORD BARNBY: I thank the noble Viscount, and I will take advantage of his suggestion.

PLIGHT OF POLITICAL REFUGEES.
2.40 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE rose to call attention to the plight of political refugees who have been turned back by frontier guards from crossing into the British Zones of Germany and Austria, or who have been handed back to totalitarian Powers on the plea that they are war criminals, collaborators or quislings; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I rise to move the Motion which stands in my name. There is profound uneasiness among people of all political opinions in this country at the fate of the refugees who have escaped from Communist powers and are now in the British Zones of Austria and Germany. Evidence of this anxiety can be found in the numerous questions which have recently been addressed to His Majesty's Government in another place, and in the

1155
many letters on the subject which have appeared in the Press.
These refugees can be divided into three categories. First there are refugees who are accused of war crimes and collaboration with the enemy during the war. The second category consists of the refugees who are coming across the frontiers almost every day from Communist-controlled Powers and seeking refuge in the British and American Zones. The third category is composed of those refugees already inside our Zones but who are liable to be sent back to Communist-controlled countries for offences which they may have committed in our Zones—offences sometimes of a comparatively trifling nature—such as black marketing offences. Take the first category, the men and women who are accused of war crimes and of collaboration with the enemy. His Majesty's Government are detaining a number of these people, nearly all of them, I believe, Yugoslavs. I think I am right in saying that the Government are detaining over one hundred persons with a view to their being deported to Yugoslavia and other Communist-controlled countries. I should be much obliged if the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government could give the House exact figures in that respect. But although the majority of these people are Yugoslavs, the principle is one of universal application, and it is the question of principle that I wish to raise this afternoon.
This question cannot be considered without its background, and the background is not a simple one; it is complicated. At the conclusion of the war, the Allies undertook to hand back to each other war criminals and collaborators and also certain displaced nationals against whom no crime was alleged. In 1945 many thousands of Russian, Polish, and Yugoslav subjects were handed back to their Governments. But before many months had passed irrefutable evidence reached the British and American authorities that these people were simply being massacred wholesale, and in many cases tortured to death. So in 1945, within a few months of the Armistice, Lord Alexander stopped the automatic transference of nationals to Yugoslavia on account of the terrible information that was reaching him. But His
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Majesty's Government still consider themselves bound by the Agreement that they made in 1945 and they have been giving effect to it. They have even gone further and made a new Agreement with Yugoslavia at Bled in 1947. That Agreement has since been repudiated by the Yugoslav Government, and I should very much like to know whether His Majesty's Government consider themselves bound by it.
When this matter was raised in another place, the spokesman of the Government said more than once that before any persons accused of war crimes or of collaboration with the enemy are sent back to Communist-controlled countries, the greatest possible trouble is taken on our side to satisfy ourselves that there is a prima facie case against them. I do not think that a prima facie case is good enough. We should satisfy ourselves that they are guilty beyond all doubt. How can this be done? How can we really establish a man's innocence or guilt unless he has an open trial and unless he is able to summon witnesses? A secret inquiry, an inquiry by a committee or by an officer even of long experience, cannot possibly have the same result, if only because there is no publicity. It is the publicity of our judicial system that is one of the greatest guarantees of its justice, and if we suppress that publicity and substitute a private inquiry, then we are, or may be, robbing the accused person of the means of getting people who can testify on his behalf. And even if he has people who can testify, how is he to get their attendance from a Communist-controlled country? I understand that quite recently in one case—I had better not mention names—it had been decided that an individual was to be handed back to a Communist-controlled country because His Majesty's Government were satisfied about his war guilt, but at the very last minute additional information was received which caused them to rescind their decision. If that can happen in one case, it can happen in other cases. I submit that that goes to support my contention that you cannot be certain of a man's innocence or guilt except by process of open trial.
I want, however, to approach the whole question on wider grounds. Have we not really had enough slaughter in Europe? How long are these inquisitions going to

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continue? Our so-called contractual obligations, by which His Majesty's Government still appear to think they are bound, were concluded in totally different circumstances from those that exist to-day. There is this further question. How can you define "collaboration with the enemy"? It is an exceedingly difficult thing to do, especially in the complicated circumstances that existed in the Balkans. I had some personal experience of that matter during the war, because for a period I was the Minister responsible for sustaining the resistance movements, and I can give your Lordships two instances of the sort of thing which was happening all over Europe every day. The chief air raid warden in a capital occupied by the Germans, the man entrusted by the German Government with mobilising civil defence against British air raids, was, in fact, the head of the resistance movement. He occupied that dual capacity for over three years without ever being found out. Was that man guilty of collaboration? No Englishman would say so, but it would be possible for a Communist to argue that he collaborated with the enemy.
Then there was the case of a man who was thought by his own fellow countrymen to be one of the chief collaborators with the enemy, whereas the facts were that for over two years he was supplying the local funds by which the resistance movement was carried on. The people who helped us in many cases had to take action which would disarm the suspicion of the enemy, and that happened in greater or lesser degree in thousands and thousands of cases in the different countries of Europe. If we were to accept Tito's definition of collaboration, we would condemn to death practically all the men who helped us in the coup d'état of 1941, when we stopped the German infiltration into Belgrade. Therefore, I say that the charge of collaboration, especially when preferred at this date, is a very difficult one to establish. As I asked just now, when is a time limit going to be put to these inquisitions? Europe must settle down. We cannot continue this witch hunting for ever.
I want to put this point to His Majesty's Government, and I hope they will not misunderstand me in the way I am trying to put it. They themselves have protested—and quite rightly pro-
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tested—in the strongest terms against the mock trials that have taken place in Communist-controlled countries, whereby one great democratic leader after another has been liquidated. Nobody has protested more strongly against that than His Majesty's Government. I do not want to be misunderstood, but I would ask this question: Were His Majesty's Government sincere in making that protest? If they were, have not these travesties of justice freed their hand? Which is the greater, the shadow or the substance? How are we to hold ourselves bound by the letter of contracts, when the spirit of those contracts has been repudiated and trampled upon by the other side? I submit that the very action of these Governments has absolved His Majesty's Government from the letter of their contractual obligations. I cite, as evidence, their own protests against the terrible crimes committed in these countries. By these protests they have proclaimed that it must be recognised that all chance of fair play, of a fair trial and of justice, has been abolished from these lands. If that is so, is not the procedure of handing individuals over, under an Agreement that was made three years ago, when most of these Eastern European countries were not Communist-controlled, a ghastly mockery of legalism?
It is surely better that a hundred guilty men should escape than that one innocent men should be sent to a fate of this nature. Therefore, I urge that henceforth no person should be delivered from our hands to Communist-controlled Governments. We know that a fair trial is not possible in those countries. The war record of this; country is above suspicion. We need not be afraid of being accused of harbouring war criminals and collaborators, for other Governments were collaborating with the enemy while we alone held up the flag of freedom. We can afford to treat with contempt any attacks that may be made on us on that score. Our record entitles us to do the right and just thing, and the right and just thing is not to hand people over to barbarism.
I would ask His Majesty's Government another question. What is the attitude in this matter of other Allies who are also parties to these Agreements? Can the noble Lord tell me, for instance, whether the American Government have handled over a single individual to a Communist-

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controlled Government in the last twelve months? I would like to see this country taking the line that, so long as the elements of human rights are denied by Communism, and so long as the possibility of a fair trial is closed to him, we will hand no man over. Such an attitude could not make our relations with the Communist Governments worse than they are to-day, because nothing could make them worse.
These considerations which I have argued, I am afraid, at considerable length, apply also to the refugees from Communism who are coming across the frontier every day. I have heard of a number of cases. I should be grateful if the noble Lord could give us the facts. There is, first, the case of General Janousek, who occupied a high position In the Czech Air Force in this country during the war. He was turned back at the frontier by a German customs official when he was trying to get into the American Zone. He was handed back to the Czech Communist Government. As a result, he was sentenced to death, although the sentence was commuted to eighteen years' imprisonment. Personally I would have preferred the former sentence. Last year, I am told, many Yugoslavs who fled to the British Zone were turned back. I should be obliged if the noble Lord could give us the latest information on this subject and, in particular, if he could tell us what instructions have been issued to the German frontier guards and customs officials. In my submission, they ought to have instructions not to hand back any person without express orders from the British military authorities.
The same considerations apply to those refugees in our Zone who may commit black market offences, or, indeed, any other offence. I hope His Majesty's Government will be very careful about sending back any such refugees to their country. If they are sent back, they will not be tried for the crime for which we have sent them out of the country, but will be tried on the capital charge of being absent from Yugoslavia, from Czechoslovakia, or from whatever country it may be. That means the death penalty. I submit that, even in the case of these people—for whom I admit it is difficult to find sympathy—the punishment would
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in many cases be quite disproportionate to the crime. Therefore, I hope that His Majesty's Government will not send people back, except under very exceptional circumstances. The point of my plea is that the Government are acting as if this were an ordinary Agreement, undertaken in 1945 with normal Governments. We really cannot continue on that basis. We must recognise the fact that the countries now under Communism are suffering under a form of tyranny the like of which Europe has not seen since the Dark Ages.
His Majesty's Government must adjust their policy to the facts; they must be realistic about the situation. As I have said before, we have a war record which entitles us to do the right and the just thing. I hope we shall hear from His Majesty's Government a statement that so long as these travesties of justice, these mock trials, continue in Communist-controlled countries they will not be a party to sending anybody for so-called trial in them, and will not deny asylum to any political refugee. I hope very much that the noble Lord will be able to make a statement on those lines. I beg to move for Papers.
3.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I should like to say a few words in support of the noble Earl who has moved this Motion. I shall be as brief as possible because of the very important debate to follow, upon which many noble Lords wish to speak. Those who have studied this Motion find that, taken literally, it is rather curiously worded, in that it refers only to the past. The past is past, and we can do nothing to remedy what has happened. It may well be that the policy of His Majesty's Government has had certain unhappy results, but personally I am convinced that His Majesty's Government have acted in the fullest good faith and that they have done what they believed was best in the circumstances. Therefore, I do not intend to criticise in any way their past actions or their policy. But in this particular case the future lies entirely in our own hands, and it is to the future that I wish to address the few observations that I have to make.
The Motion raises two quite distinct issues. The first is the turning back by frontier guards of political refugees who

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endeavour to cross into the British Zones of Germany and Austria from neighbouring totalitarian countries. The plight of these poor people is really terrible. It cannot be supposed that they desire to leave their country, and often their families and their possessions, just for the sake of change. No; they depart because they are in terror of their lives; because they hear the imminent knock at the door and they know what that means. I realise, of course, that there are grave administrative difficulties in admitting a very large number of these unhappy people at the same time. We have already great numbers of displaced persons in our Zones in Austria and in Germany. I also realise that the natural inclination of those who are responsible for the administration of the Zones is to say: "We do not want to add to the present numbers" I earnestly hope, however, that His Majesty's Government will be guided by higher and more humane considerations, and that they will give definite instructions that these political refugees shall be allowed to cross the frontier where they can obtain safety. Of course, after their arrival, they might be screened, and if there were criminals among them they could, in exceptional circumstances, be handed back. But I feel most strongly that no genuine political refugee should be refused asylum. I trust, therefore, that we may receive assurances from His Majesty's Government that they are ready to adopt this line. In this connection, I wonder whether your Lordships have noticed that the American Government and Congress have just voted a sum of 73,000,000 dollars to help the International Refugee Organisation. That is a most generous contribution, and will greatly contribute to solving that terrible problem. I think all of us who care about refugees would like to take this opportunity of expressing our gratitude.
I now pass to the second point, the handing back to the totalitarian Powers of refugees, on the plea that they are war criminals, collaborators or quislings. Here a very grave responsibility must rest upon His Majesty's Government, because there is little doubt that, if an individual is handed over on those charges, his life is forfeited. I gather from the answers given in another place that we are likely to be told that His Majesty's Government
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have undertaken certain international obligations in this respect, and that we are bound to fulfil them; and, secondly, that no one is handed back unless a strong Prima facie case has been established against him. I agree with the noble Earl who moved this Motion that that is insufficient. First of all, I would like to deal with the argument about our international obligations. If I remember rightly, the doctrine which holds good in international law may be defined as rebus sic stantibus; that is to say, when an Agreement is concluded, it is concluded to meet a given set of circumstances. If those circumstances entirely alter, then the Agreement or Treaty cannot be considered as fully binding. I agree that that is a dangerous doctrine if pressed to extremes, because it tends to undermine the sanctity of Agreements and Treaties. In my view, Agreements and Treaties ought to be altered only with the consent of the signatory Powers. If ever there was a case where that doctrine can be applied, it is the one we are now considering.
As the noble Earl pointed out, when we concluded those Agreements we believed that the persons handed over would have a fair judicial trial. Can any of your Lordships believe that to be the case today Handing over is equivalent to a sentence of death. We know, unhappily, what is this so-called justice in totalitarian countries. When I think of the judicial procedure there, I cannot help being reminded of the tale of the mouse and the cat, Fury, in Alice in Wonderland. Your Lordships probably remember that the cat wished to prosecute the mouse, and the mouse protested that there was no judge and no jury, and, therefore, there could be no prosecution. I will quote the last lines:
"I'll be judge, I'll be jury,
Said cunning old Fury:
I'll try the whole cause,
And condemn you to death."
It is true that this case is far too tragic for Lewis Carroll. In conclusion, I should like to press the Government that they will not hand over people unless they are convinced themselves, by evidence produced and by interrogation, that such people would have been guilty of treason if tried in a British court. That, and nothing else, to my mind, ought to be the criterion.

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Before I sit down, I should like to express my appreciation of the fact that the Government spokesman on this occasion is to be the noble Lord, Lord Henderson. I am fortunate enough to have been a friend of his father, a great Foreign Secretary who was much admired and respected in international circles as a representative and typical Englishman. He would be proud if he knew that his son to-day was responsible for answering questions on foreign affairs in your Lordships' House.
3.12 p.m.
LORD VANSITTART: My Lords, I should like to support this Motion, briefly but warmly. There used to be words embedded in our vocabulary about "handing people over to justice." I hope that that cliché will never be perverted, even by accident. It would be a mockery if we were to begin to hand people over to injustice. I hope, also, that it is generally realised in your Lordships' House and in the country that in Totalitaria, just as people are deprived of their liberty so words are deprived of their meaning—particularly the abstract ones, though some of the concrete ones fare little better. I, for one, am beginning to be exceedingly doubtful whether a spade is a spade. Mono Party is "democracy"; Socialist and peasant leaders are "Fascists"; liberators are "oppressors"; and vice versa. But the point of importance for us to-day is that that is only half the story, because just as people are driven into forced labour so words are forced into the opposite of their exact meaning. Again, as truth is "propaganda" and terrorism "tolerance," so "justice" is the people's court, which is the ventriloquist's dummy of the secret police and therefore may well be the embodiment of injustice. Many notorious cases justify that statement.
It may be that there are some of these refugees seeking admission who are guilty of heinous crimes to our knowledge—not, of course, to the knowledge of Totalitaria, where "knowledge" means prejudice. But even then these cases are open to all the difficulties and objections which have been mentioned by the noble Earl who moved this Motion. There can be no justification whatever for handing over any borderline or doubtful
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cases to Totalitaria.—where, we are frequently reminded, man can be that very rare being, a mammal who preys on his own kind.
Therefore I hope we shall be in no wise hidebound by convention in these matters. We really must free ourselves from mesmeric fears that we might be failing in some portion of our obligation to those who never fulfil any of their obligations to us, great or small. In any case, no convention on God's earth could possibly justify the refusal of salvation to those who run for their lives with the hounds of fanaticism at their heels. I am told that some of the noble Lords on my left advocate the suppression of blood sports. Well, I do not happen to practise blood sports myself, but it may well be that one man's meat—even when spelt with two e's—is another man's poison; yet blood sports in this country are relatively mild proceedings compared with the blood sport of politics as practised in Totalitaria. There may be noble Lords who are better qualified to speak than I am, but I am told that the fox has a fifty-fifty chance of escape; in the human blood sports of Totalitaria, it is a capital offence even to try to escape. I imagine that if anyone were to suggest handing over doubtful cases to Franco there would be an awful outcry; and I hope that no such thing would ever be considered. In that case, there can be no question of handing over doubtful cases to Tito, because nothing can be more insincere than to endeavour to distinguish between dictators or put a gloss on the jack-boot because it happens to fit the left foot.
I believe, very earnestly, that the crisis, and indeed the collapse, of civilisation has resulted in the virtual extermination of justice and indeed of human kindness in wide areas of the world. We cannot, therefore, be too careful in doing all in our power to preserve the remnants in the narrowing regions where they still survive.
3.16 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, the House is indebted to the noble Earl who introduced this Motion. We have a longstanding tradition as a people never to refuse sanctuary to refugees who come to our shores on religious or political grounds; and I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, in his plea for justice and human

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kindness. The noble Earl spoke of political refugees from two points of view: first, those who try to escape a tyrant rule being turned back at the frontier by our own servants; and, secondly, those living temporarily under a free Government being handed back to tyranny. The gravity of the noble Earl's complaint lies in the fact that the servants of the British Government find themselves the unwilling agents of a totalitarian tyranny. It is something quite new in British history that we should be required to deliver over to another country foreigners resident in an area for which we are responsible, not because they are criminals or murderers but simply because they are politically obnoxious to that foreign Government. I had much to do, in past years, with political refugees and I know something of the plight of those turned back on the frontier. I pity the guards who have to perform this miserable task, and I pity still more the victims of the Tito tyranny, the Dimitrov tyranny and the Stalin tyranny. I strongly support the plea of the noble Earl, Lord Perth, that we should give asylum to those who can make their way into territory where the British flag flies.
But I wish to speak more particularly of those under British rule whose surrender is sought by totalitarian Governments. There are two principal reasons on which I base my objection. The first is that, as I understand it, up to (I think) 1945 it was wrong in international law, and wrong in relation to the principles of British justice, to require the delivery of political refugees as such to a foreign Government. Extradition is not the right word for these transactions. In English law, extradition implies a public hearing before an independent magistrate, who must satisfy himself, first, that there is a strong prima facie case and, secondly, that the motive is not political. I should like to read to your Lordships the relevant, paragraph in Halsbury's Laws of England:
"A fugitive criminal may not be surrendered if the offence for which his extradition is demanded is one of a political character, or if he prove to the satisfaction of the police magistrate or the Court before whom he is brought on habeas corpus or the Secretary of State that the requisition for his surrender has in fact been made with a view to try to punish him for an offence of a political character"
The review boards which have been lately introduced give a little more in the way
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of investigation than was given till recently. But there is still little, if any, publicity. That is the main complaint—that the whole business is political and not judicial.
It is fair to remark that hitherto extradition Treaties have been made only with those States where we had good reason to expect sound standards of law and justice; and political offences have always been excepted. I know that in recent months the procedure for surrender has been greatly improved, in the interests of the accused persons. I know and recognise the keen personal interest of General Robertson in this matter, and the considerate conduct which his officials display. It is something to be assured that no one will be surrendered unless, after full particulars of the charge have been given to the accused person, there is reason to suppose that conviction would follow if he came before a British court. But the policy is wrong. If the offence is a political offence, in the ordinary meaning of the word, it is inconsistent with the general habit of British justice to surrender a political refugee. If the offence is not political—as in the case of a war crime—then it is too late, three years after the end of the Second World War, to surrender such people now to totalitarian Powers.
The second principal ground for objecting to the delivery of such accused persons to totalitarian Governments concerns war crimes themselves and the procedure for the prosecution of war criminals. Two fundamental principles of international law, as understood till recent years, have been violated by the legal structure set up for the trials of war criminals at Nuremburg. First, it is not disputed that the law under which the accused persons are charged is a law enacted long after many of the acts specified in the indictment were committed. Nulla pœna sine lege is the basis of law in this regard. The whole Charter is a detailed statement, of crimes committed, but the crimes as set out in the Charter—some of them for the first time—are crimes set out and published after the close of the Second World War. There was an extreme illustration of legislation after the event in the deletion, in April, 1942, of Article 443 in Chapter XIV of the British Manual of Military Law, the effect of which was that superior orders constitute a good

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defence to a charge of war crimes. This defence counted in the Leipzig trials at the end of the First World War, but is not allowed now. The second fundamental—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): I do not wish to interrupt the right reverend Prelate, but he is making this assertion as though these facts were agreed. Is he not aware that what he is now dealing with is a highly controversial legal matter? I personally disagree with almost every word he has said.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: I am sorry to differ from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack but I am quoting high legal authority.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: But is it uncontroversial?
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: There are fundamental principles of international law which have hitherto been current, and there is another principle of international law on which I do not think we shall disagree—namely, the principle of impartiality. I am sure that the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will not differ here. There is no attempt to deal with war crimes committed by totalitarian Powers, and the Judges do not include Judges from neutral countries. The argument will be made—indeed it has been made, and has to be answered—that the British Government are bound by special Treaties or by special Agreement to deliver such accused persons to other Allied Governments on their demand, just as those Governments are bound by similar Treaties to deliver persons similarly accused to us on our demand. I do not want the guilty to go scot-free but, like the noble Earl who opened this debate, I maintain that a time limit should be fixed for dealing with war criminals of every category. In another place it was stated that in the British Zone of Germany 100 persons are detained as war criminals, for whom extradition is asked. Have they all received particulars of the charges made against them? I suggest that a date should be fixed, not only for them but for all war criminals in our hands, by which a charge must be laid, and that should a charge not be laid toy that date they should be set free.
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As to the extradition of war criminals and others affected, General Robertson stated on June 1 that he wished to receive applications for extradition by September 1, and that after that date only extraditions of persons accused of murder, as defined in the German penal code, could be applied for. That is something achieved which we must all gratefully acknowledge, but I hope the Government will go further. With others who have spoken, I hope that there may be no extraditions at all, and that there may be no requests made by us (I have not heard that any have been made) to other Governments for extraditions to our shores. It is now three years after the end of the Second World War, and more than two and a half years after the beginning of the Nuremberg trials.
I have not said anything about the injustice of the judicial procedure practised in totalitarian States. There is only too great a likelihood of the fugitive, after surrender, being victimised for offences other than those with which he was charged. And here would be another offence against the principles of extradition law. Most Communist rulers have committed, and many are committing, war crimes of the greatest severity and violence. The application for the extradition of a war criminal is a mere pretence; the real aim of the Communist Powers is the extermination of their political opponents; and in the world as it is constituted to-day, men can commit any crime they like, so long as they have the power. My plea in relation to political refugees, and all other persons in their situation, is that this country should give a lead in the reaffirmation of law as superior to power, and for the reawakening of Shakespeare's belief in the unstrained "quality of mercy." Heaven knows that the world is tormented and shattered enough, and that cruelty and hatred have had their way too long! We cannot rebuild waste places only by looking back. There must be a joining together of the forces of all nations for the work of reconciliation and healing. There must be a spirit of firmness but also a spirit of compassion. For the sake of future justice and future freedom, let our country give a lead in showing faith in the sovereignty of law and in the potency of mercy which
"droppeth, as the gentle rain from Heaven."
3.33 p.m.
THE EARL OF HALIFAX: My Lords, I do not think it is necessary to add much—or indeed that there is much to add—either to the argument or to the clarification of the point that is occupying your Lordships this afternoon, because the case has been admirably made by my noble friend who moved this Motion and by other noble Lords who have supported it. Indeed, I rise to add a word or two only for the satisfaction of my own conscience. Along, I doubt not, with others of your Lordships, I am extremely grateful to the noble Earl for having brought this matter again before this House, and I cannot but think that the case that has been deployed is one that must, on general principles, appeal to all your Lordships. I do not doubt that it also appeals to the members of His Majesty's Government. I can, however, appreciate what is, and has no doubt been, their difficulty—the noble Earl, Lord Perth, alluded to it—in that they have felt themselves, and indeed rightly feel themselves, bound to have regard to the obligations of international Agreements, and the like. After all, the war that we fought recently was largely fought to try to re-establish that principle, and it is certainly not one lightly to be disregarded.
However, I want to make one suggestion to the noble Lord who will reply and to others of your Lordships who may think it has any validity. It is this. There are, so far as I know, only two methods short of force by which you can secure that honour is paid to Agreements—and, with the noble Earl who moved this Motion, by Agreements I do not merely mean the letter of Agreements, I mean the spirit of Agreements. The first method is to observe those Agreements so honourably yourself that you shame other people into observing them too. That is the method which we have been trying and, as my noble friend Lord Vansittart I think reminded us, up to now it has not been eminently successful. Therefore I suggest that the time has come in which we must discard that method of securing the mutual honouring of Agreements for the other method, and make it perfectly plain to those with whom we are dealing that if the spirit of Agreements is to be kept it must be a two-way traffic, and cannot be unilateral only.
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That leads me to the thought that, without any deviation from their general principle, the Government could very well now adopt the line that has been pressed upon them by those who have spoken on this Motion. For that the voice of general justice, the voice of human rights, the voice to which the noble Earl referred, crying out against the mass destruction of human life in Europe, pleads; and I cannot but think that the case is really unanswerable. It may well be that the Government will say—and indeed I think they will be justified in saying—that they must exercise the right of discrimination on whatever principles seem best calculated to enable them to pursue the general end. That there must be discrimination I recognise; but I would ask the Government to have regard to what I doubt not is the general feeling of the majority of your Lordships. I would appeal to them so to frame their policy that in the discrimination that they may feel bound to make they will have regard to the general sentiment dictated both by argument and, as it seems to me, by justice.
3.38 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would like very briefly to support what has been said by other speakers. As the noble Earl, Lord Halifax, has just observed, so admirable is the case that has already been made that there is little I can add. So far as that portion of the Motion which deals with the turning back of political refugees who are trying to leave totalitarian countries is concerned, I need only say—and I am sure I speak for everyone on these Benches—that it has been a profound shock to me to know that such a thing is actually happening at the present time. The right of asylum for political refugees has always been, or has been at least for a great many years, one of our proudest boasts; it is the definite, concrete evidence of the genuineness of our devotion and adherence to free institutions. To deny such asylum, to push back, for whatever reason, to prison and to death those whose only crime is a political one—and in this particular case whose only crime is that they think as we do about freedom—seems to me a dreadful thing. I hope that such a practice (if indeed it exists, because I speak from no personal knowledge), will not be allowed to continue.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: May I interrupt the noble Marquess? I hope I have not given him and others of your Lordships the impression that I am accusing His Majesty's Government of giving instructions to the frontier guards that they should do this, but I have information that frontier guards have, in fact, done it. My question was: What steps are the Government taking to stop it?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not wish to make any such charge against the Government; I am sure it would be contrary to the whole sentiment of us all, in whatever part of the House we sit. The portion of the Motion about which I wish to say one word relates mainly to that which deals with the handing over of war criminals to the tender mercies of the totalitarian Governments. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, has already spoken to your Lordships—and you all know it only too well—of the dreadful fate that awaits those people who are returned to countries behind the Iron Curtain. Political refugees, in any case, one would have thought, ought not to be returned. There is, it may well be thought, a stronger case with regard to war criminals, because as everyone knows, an agreement was reached at the end of the war, and no-one wishes genuine war criminals to escape the penalty of their crimes. I am sure that that is not the purpose which the noble Earl has in mind. But it seems to me that, if we are handing these people back, we have a vital and definite interest to be certain not only that they would be likely to be convicted under British law, but that they will, at any rate, have a fair trial in the country to which they go, and will receive that sort of treatment which they would be given in any civilised land.
The noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, has spoken of blood sports. What about the question of capital punishment? Only lately we have had evidence that certain sections of the population in this country for the highest reasons, reasons of high conscience, cannot make it accord with their beliefs that capital punishment should exist here, in any form whatever. Over the necessity for capital punishment, of course, varying views are held; and they are held with great sincerity. But I should hope we all agree that unnecessary cruelty should be avoided, and that the highest standard of justice in trying
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these people is necessary. I would have imagined that to be the very essence of civilised life. As the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, has said, we ought not to conceal from ourselves the fact that if we hand over these people they will have neither a fair trial nor humane treatment. Indeed, they are only too likely to be tortured before death and, possibly, tortured to death. If to prevent such a horrible result involves a breach of the letter of our Agreement, at any rate we should be acting strictly in accordance with its spirit, because, after all, the whole basis on which we entered into the Agreement was that fair trial and fair treatment should be accorded to these people.
We should not seek to enable war criminals to evade trial and punishment, if they deserve it. But if we are convinced that they will not be given a fair trial, why should we ourselves not try them, and so ensure that they get the justice which it is our duty to give them? That, I submit, is the only course of action consonant with our duty as Christians and believers in justice. To hand them back would be to inflict an indelible stain on our record. I know the difficulties connected with this matter. It is not an easy situation to deal with, because of the engagements into which we have entered. But I do beg the Government to reconsider this matter and to stand firm. If they do, I am certain they will have the support of every decent-minded man and woman, both in this country and in the rest of the free world. I would think that this was really an occasion both for courage and for common sense. If we do not exercise those two qualities, we shall fall far below the measure of our responsibilities.
3.45 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD HENDERSON): My Lords, before I deal with the debate perhaps I may be permitted to thank the noble Earl, Lord Perth, for his kind personal references, and in particular for his reference to my father, which I greatly appreciate.
We are all very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, for providing an opportunity to discuss this important problem of political refugees, war criminals and collaborators. As has been

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said, happily for us we do not know what it means to live in a police State under totalitarian rule. We enjoy the free exercise of fundamental human rights. They are well safeguarded in this country by moral, constitutional and other democratic sanctions. But because our internal freedom is secure, we are not indifferent to the plight of refugees from tyranny elsewhere. We have, as we have been reminded this afternoon, a long and deeply-rooted tradition of sanctuary for political refugees—perhaps never more actively invoked than in the years immediately preceding the last war. And I think we can be proud of our humanitarian record in this respect, because it is a great record. It is only right and proper, therefore, that vigilance should be exercised to make sure that we are not falling from grace in dealing with the problem of political refugees to-day. We all realise that immeasurable injury is being done to fundamental human rights in many areas of the world, and it is of vital importance that we should see to it that the impact of this retrogression is not allowed to lead to any deterioration in British conduct.
The noble Earl and other noble Lords who have taken part in this discussion, are serving the cause of humanity and democratic freedom when they show concern—as they have done this afternoon—for the maintenance of this historic policy by the authorities who are acting in the name of Britain and the British Government in territories in Europe for which we have special and direct responsibilities. I am sure that it will give general satisfaction when I say that it has never been our policy to refuse admission into our Zones of Germany and Austria to any genuine political refugee; nor should we ever hand such people back to the tender mercies of their political opponents. I might summarise this part of the discussion in three questions. First, are we under any Treaty obligations to deliver up any merely political refugees? The answer is; "No" Second, have we in fact ever delivered up such people? The answer is; "No" Third, are we now doing so? The answer is; "No"
Let me now proceed to deal with the problem in a little detail. With the exception of the Czechs who fled after the Communist coup, the number of political
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refugees now escaping to our Zone is comparatively negligible, especially in our Zone of Germany, where there are not more than a few hundred such persons. The stringent frontier control of the Communist Powers is designed to make the escape of political opponents as difficult as possible, and many of the persons seeking admission to the Western Zones are those whose departure is desired by their countries of origin—for example, criminals, black market operators and Communist agents. These undesirable persons are not welcomed in the Western Zones and although it is unfortunately true that many of them do succeed in finding their way in, the authorities concerned would be quite justified in turning them back, if caught, and even in deporting them, if their countries of origin were prepared to accept them—which, unfortunately, is not the case. Our authorities cannot be expected to forgo the right exercised by all Governments to refuse admission to undesirables and to deport them whenever such a course is necessary and possible. That, I think, is common ground.
Our policy has always been that inter-zonal boundaries should not be regarded as international frontiers. No frontier guards in the strict sense of the term, exist. German police are posted along the boundary, but their tasks are merely to control persons entering the British Zone and to check black market activities. They have no authority to refuse entry into the Zone. The Public Safety Adviser has no knowledge of any case where German police have taken such action on their own initiative, and I am assured that he would take disciplinary action if any cases came to his notice. By quadripartite agreement, a system of interzonal passes exists, but the purpose of these passes—so far as the British Zone is concerned—is to facilitate interzonal travel by Germans engaged in official and business activities. There is no legislation, British or German, making possession of these passes a condition of entry into the British Zone. Germans in possession of interzonal passes are, of course, allowed to pass without hindrance. Many others cross without passes and enter the Zone without going through police control. Those without passes who go through police controls are allowed to enter.

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Known criminals wanted by the German police in the Soviet Zone, or by the Soviet authorities, may be returned, but only after a formal warrant of arrest has been received from the Soviet Zone and the case has been proved in the appropriate German court and confirmed locally by the Public Safety and Legal Division. The remainder are allowed to remain in the Zone, and camps are available for those who have no accommodation to which they can proceed. They remain in the camps until accommodation is available. We therefore stand firm on the principle, not only of granting political asylum but also of the general freedom of travel by Germans within Germany. No case—I repeat, no case—has ever been brought to our attention of any political refugee being denied the right of asylum in either of our Zones. And I want to say, emphatically, that we will never turn back or deport a political refugee. It is worth noting that the International Refugee Organisation, which was set up by the United Nations to protect the interests of refugees, has never found occasion to complain of our treatment of these unfortunate people. On the other hand, the Communist States are constantly accusing us of protecting alleged war criminals and quislings by refusing to hand them over on demand.
The case of the Czechoslovak General, Janousek, was mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, who stated that he had been turned back by German customs officers at the frontier. A report of his trial issued by the Czechoslovak Press Agency stated that General Janousek was arrested just when he was about to cross the frontier. This could not have been into either of the British Zones, which have no frontier with Czecholovakia. We have no other information regarding his arrest than that to which I have referred. Our treatment of political refugees is uniform in both British Zones and, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, no Czechoslovak or Yugoslav nationals escaping into our Zone in Austria have been turned back. Nevertheless, I shall be glad to have inquiries made about any alleged case, if I am supplied with details, including names and dates.
I will add one further word on this aspect of the problem. Communist propaganda among displaced persons is
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now being directed towards spreading alarm and despondency among them, by suggesting that the Western Democracies have no interest in their fate and that they might as well return home voluntarily now, rather than be compelled to do so later. This type of propaganda is likely to be far more successful in the long run than was the earlier type of political harangue which had such meagre results. After three years in displaced persons' camps, with no immediate prospects of resettlement, many refugees tend to feel that they have been forgotten. Such is their tragedy that this is not surprising. It would, therefore, be a great disservice to these unfortunate people if they were misled into believing that this country, which has provided sanctuary for more post-war refugees than all the other countries in the world combined, would ever consent to the forcible repatriation of innocent political dissidents. I hope that I have shown conclusively that we are worthily maintaining our traditional British policy in respect of political refugees.
I come now to the question of our treatment of nationals of totalitarian States who are accused of war crimes or of collaboration with the enemy. Here let me say that in all cases we refuse to surrender any person unless a clear prima facie case has been established to the satisfaction of British legal opinion. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, asked me what was the exact nature of His Majesty's Government's contractual engagements to hand back war criminals and quislings. They have been mentioned, I think, by the noble Earl, Lord Perth, and by the noble Earl, Lord Halifax. They are contained in two resolutions adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations. The first of these resolutions was adopted on February 13, 1946. It will be sufficient if I quote the recommendation, which is as follows:
"That members of the United Nations forthwith take all the necessary measures to cause the arrest of those war criminals who have been responsible for, or who have taken a consenting part in, the above crimes…"—
This refers to war crimes, crimes against peace and humanity—
"and to cause them to be sent back to the countries in which their abominable deeds were done, in order that they may be judged and punished according to the laws of those countries."
The second resolution of October 31, 1947, recommended members of the

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United Nations who desire the surrender of alleged war criminals or traitors by members in whose jurisdiction they are believed to be to request such surrender as soon as possible, and to support their request with sufficient evidence to establish that a reasonable prima facie case exists as to identity and guilt. Those are the two international resolutions under which we have accepted obligations. All members of the United Nations are equally bound with us by those resolutions. It will be clear from what I have just said that our obligations still stand, notwithstanding the repudiation by the Yugoslav Government of the Bled Agreement. That Agreement was merely an administrative arrangement to facilitate the carrying out of our obligations under the General Assembly resolutions.
Let me now deal with the extradition procedure which we employ. The Government desiring the extradition of an alleged war criminal or traitor makes application through its Military Mission in Germany. The application is then reviewed by the Extradition Tribunal, which is under the control of the Legal Division of the Control Commission for Germany, and sits in Hamburg. Sufficient evidence to establish a prima facie case must be submitted to this Tribunal before it makes any recommendation to the Deputy Chief of Staff, and the latter, acting on behalf of the Military Governor, either approves or refuses extradition. Cases of doubt may be referred to the Military Governor personally. The procedure in Austria differs slightly, in so far as applications for extradition are made to the Austrian Government, in the first place. But, in effect, the final decision concerning any accused in the British Zone of Occupation rests with the British High Commissioner.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: May I ask the noble Lord whether the prima facie evidence which is required is written evidence, or evidence to be given which can be subjected to cross-examination?
LORD HENDERSON: I would not like to give a snap answer to that question. I will deal with the actual procedure in a moment. I think I can claim that both in Germany and in Austria adequate safeguards against the surrender of innocent persons are pro-
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vided. A different procedure has been set up for dealing with Yugoslav traitors and quislings, because there were three separate quisling régimes in Yugoslavia during the war and, therefore, the political background is much more complicated. The person accused is first interrogated by a British expert to establish his identity with the wanted man. On this being done, he is then asked to give an account of his war-time activities. After that he is told the charge against him, and given every opportunity of defending himself. The papers are then, submitted to a legal panel for an opinion as to whether a prima facie case has been established. If they decide it has not, the accused is automatically released. If they decide it has, the papers are then submitted to the Foreign Office, where a full statement of the case is prepared. Every relevant factor is included in such a statement—as, for example, an assessment of the political and personal issues involved. The case is then submitted to the legal advisers of the Foreign Office for a final opinion as to whether a prima facie case of actual and wilful collaboration has been established. Finally, a decision is taken at Ministerial level whether to surrender the man or not. Throughout, the accused is always given the benefit of the doubt, if doubt there be.
The care with which we scrutinise such cases should be sufficiently clear from the fact that out of 1,800 persons whose surrender has been demanded by the Yugoslav Government, only 51 have teen handed over by us. While it is not possible to follow up the results of the trials; in all cases, in every case of which we have knowledge, where a person surrendered by us has been brought to trial in his own country, the sentence was not more severe than would have been the case had the accused been a British subject, brought to trial before a British court on the same charges, and found guilty. The noble Earl, Lord Perth, urged that a prima facie case is not sufficient for handing over an accused. He thought the British authorities ought to be satisfied that anyone handed over would be condemned in a British court. What we do is to comply with the United Nations Assembly resolutions, and we do not hand over the accused unless and until we have satisfied ourselves that a prima facie case has been established, which would be the

1179
procedure in a similar case before sending to trial in this country. It has been suggested that such cases should be dealt with by a British court (I think the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, suggested this) or by an international court, because of the lack of justice in Communist States. That suggestion, I submit, is clearly impracticable, because there is no legal precedent for trying a person in one country for offences against the laws of another country, and because no machinery, either national or international, exists for such a purpose.
Finally, I was asked the number of persons who are at present detained by the British authorities with a view to their possible handing over to totalitarian Powers. The latest figures are: 22 Yugoslavs and 5 Poles held in Germany, and 5 Yugoslavs held in Austria. The number of Germans held is 45. To complete the picture, I would add the information that the following numbers are being held on behalf of our democratic Allies: 29 Belgians, 22 Dutch, 9 French, 1 Greek, 1 Dane and 1 Luxembourger. The number of Germans similarly held is 9I.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: May I interrupt the noble Lord? I thought he said just now 45 Germans. Now he speaks of 91 Germans. I do not quite understand the distinction. That was my first question. My second question is this. Am I right in presuming that the allegations against those Germans is of having committed war crimes? The question of collaboration would not arise.
LORD HENDERSON: That is so. I am taking the total number. The first figure of 45 is of all the Germans who may be handed back to totalitarian States. The second figure relates to Germans asked for by democratic States.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Western Germans?
LORD HENDERSON: Yes.
It is clear from the tone and atmosphere of this discussion, and from the powerful speeches which have been made in it, that there is a general desire that the policy of handing over war criminals, collaborators and quislings should not continue indefinitely. Noble Lords are aware—the right reverend Prelate mentioned the fact in his speech—that a first
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step in this direction has already been taken. The Military Governor of the British Zone in Germany has announced that all applications for war criminals must be submitted on or before September 1, and that we shall consider, after that date, applications for the extradition of only such persons against whom a clear prima facie case of murder is made out. This decision will, I am sure, meet with the general approval and support of your Lordships' House. I will only add that His Majesty's Government have the question of future policy constantly under review, as they appreciate that these extraditions for war-time offences cannot go on for ever. Two or three particular suggestions have been made in speeches this afternoon, and I will make it my personal responsibility to bring them to the attention of the Secretary of State for his consideration.
THE EARL OF PERTH: The noble Lord said that there would be a provision as regards Germany. Does that apply equally to Austria? If not, I hope the noble Lord will consider that it should apply to Austria as well.
LORD HENDERSON: I have stated the actual factual position, and at the moment I do not wish to be drawn into speculation as to the future. I have indicated that His Majesty's Government are constantly reviewing the situation.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, before the noble Earl replies, might I ask one question arising out of what was said by the right reverend Prelate? What exactly is the procedure at the Austrian frontier? When a Yugoslav refugee comes to the frontier, for instance, in Carinthia or in Styria, what happens when he begs for admission? Until he has gained admission, no question of extradition can arise. Is there discretion to turn him straight back, or may he be detained in a species of quarantine until his case is heard? If that is done, what follows? Is there an open hearing, as there would be before a magistrate—I do not necessarily say a public hearing, but a hearing in which he and counsel can appear and state their case—or is it all left to the discretion of some military or other authority after taking legal advice? I think a great deal depends on which it is.
LORD HENDERSON: If I may say so, with respect, I think that the noble Lord

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is under a misapprehension. He is referring to political refugees. When political refugees succeed in crossing the frontier, no question of sending them back arises. They are then in our territory. The processes of examination with a view to extradition apply only to war criminals and not to political refugees who have succeeded in getting out of their own country.
4.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, in rising to withdraw my Motion, I would like to thank the noble Lord for his reply, and to say with what appreciation and gratitude I listened to many of the things the noble Lord said on behalf of His Majesty's Government this afternoon. It was particularly important that he reaffirmed, in no measured terms, the doctrine of asylum for political refugees. I am sure that your Lordships were all very glad to hear that His Majesty's Government intend to maintain that doctrine. At the same time, there were, if I may say so, one or two gaps in his reply to which I must allude at this moment, and I would be grateful if the noble Lord could see that they are given further consideration. In the first place, after assuring us that no political refugee is turned back, the noble Lord went on to say that this did not apply to undesirables, to criminals or black market operators. They were sent back.
LORD HENDERSON: May I interrupt the noble Earl? I said that we might desire to send them back, but that unfortunately their countries of origin would not receive them. If I may put it another way, not only is the political refugee safe, but in the main the other type of refugee is also safe, because we cannot put him over the frontier again.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am glad to hear that, because I had misunderstood the noble Lord. I understood that there was a difference in treatment between an undesirable and a refugee. So long as that is not the case, I am satisfied; and that really answers the point of my noble friend Lord Rankeillour. If everyone who reaches our frontier is allowed to cross it—which is what I understand the noble Lord to say—the fears which we held are answered.
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Then we come to these seventy-seven people whose extradition has been demanded by Communist-controlled countries, and whom we are detaining on the charge of war crimes and collaboration with the enemy. The noble Lord said, in answer to my question, that we were bound by two sets of resolutions passed by the United Nations, in 1946 and 1947. If that is the nature of our binding then, of course, all other numbers of the United Nations are equally bound. The noble Lord did not tell us how the obligations in this respect are being interpreted by the other members of the United Nations, although I specifically asked him whether he knew of any case where the Americans had handed back an accused pen on within the last twelve months. I should be greatly obliged if the noble Lord would make inquiries on that point. I will later take an opportunity of asking him publicly how the other parties to this agreement, France and America, have acted in this respect.
The only other point I desire to make is with regard to the suggestion made by my noble friend and leader, Lord Salisbury, that we ought to try criminals ourselves rather than send them back to Communist countries. The noble Lord said that was impossible, but, after all, new circumstances demand new measures. We found means; of bringing people to trial at Nuremberg, in a way which I believe was legally unprecedented. I admit the issue was not precisely the same as it is in this case. If there were no other way, we could pass a special Statute, as has been done for special cases in the past. Therefore, if we are faced with the circumstance that people cannot have a fair trial in Communist-controlled countries, I do not think. His Majesty's Government can ride off on the plea that there is no alternative There is always the alternative of this Parliament setting up a court which could try people. I say that only by way of caveat. Comparatively speaking, these are minor, though important, points. I hope the noble Lord will give them further consideration. I should like once more to thank him for the general tenor of his reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

CIVIL DEFENCE
4.21 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM rose to call attention to the Civil Defence organisation; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, during the recent debate on Defence in your Lordships' House, I ventured to draw your attention to certain aspects of this most important arm of our national security—namely, Civil Defence. At that time His Majesty's Government stated that the whole matter was under close consideration, and that the Memorandum of the Home Office, which was issued, I think, in November, 1947, was in the hands of local authorities. As many of your Lordships are aware, this Home Office Memorandum proposed that the country should be organised into three main elements of Civil Defence. It is proposed, first, that there should be a highly mobile full-time force, available for service in any part of the United Kingdom and reinforced by military and mobile columns. Secondly there are to be local forces, mainly part-time, but sufficiently mobile to serve anywhere within a more restricted local area. Thirdly, there is to be a citizen force or local static force, recruited on a voluntary basis and designed to enable the general public to take such immediate steps as may be necessary after an air raid—putting out fires, first aid and rescue work, and so on. This force was to be organised and administered by the police.
I should like to ask His Majesty's Government what have been the reactions of the local authorities to this proposed organisation; whether a measure of agreement has been obtained from them; and, if this agreement has been obtained, what steps are being taken to implement the proposals in the Memorandum. I think it is clear that these new proposals would render the Civil Defence Acts of 1937 and 1939 almost inapplicable and that it would be necessary to introduce new legislation. I should like to refer to this point for a few minutes, and to look a little more closely at the present machinery for the integration of Civil Defence. I should also like to put forward certain suggestions which might be embodied in this new legislation. Some form of new legislation was, I think, foreshadowed in the Memorandum issued by the Home Office to the local authorities.
What is the real position of Civil Defence to-day? I suggest that, for all practical purposes, it is back to what it was in 1937. At present there is a Civil Defence Committee, which I understand is really an inter-Departmental Committee under the administration of the Home Office; and beneath this Committee is a Civil Defence Joint Planning Staff. The Home Secretary is not a member of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, although there can hardly be a subject relating to defence which is not in some way related to the responsibilities of the Home Secretary. I suggest that we have in the set-up as it is to-day a very unsatisfactory chain of command. The Civil Defence Committee is merely a Departmental Committee of the Home Office and without any representation in the Cabinet Defence Committee. I should like to suggest that the Home Secretary should be a member of the Defence Committee. Of course he need not attend except when Civil Defence was directly or indirectly concerned. I would like further to suggest that the Minister of Defence should be made responsible for policy in connection with Civil Defence in the same way as this Minister is now responsible for the policy of the other Service Departments, such as the Navy, the Air Force and so on. Then I feel that the whole organisation would be linked with the Chief of Staffs' Committee. The ultimate responsibility for Civil Defence would therefore be the Cabinet as a whole, through the Cabinet Defence Committee and the Minister of Defence.
Those of your Lordships who have examined the proposals for Civil Defence which have been put forward, in fact even put into effect, by the United States of America, will recall that the Civil Defence organisation has been put directly under the Secretary of Defence, who has the responsibility for recommending a national programme and for planning the structure and necessary legislation for a permanent Civil Defence organisation. In fact, a new Civil Defence department in the United States of America has been formed, with a Minister of Cabinet rank and reporting directly to the Secretary of Defence. A corresponding structure in this country would, of course, be, as I have mentioned, the creation of a Civil Defence Department headed by a Minister

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and responsible to the Minister of Defence in the same way as the heads of the other Services—the Admiralty, the Air Force and the War Office—are responsible to him now. I must confess that I should like to see a new Ministry established on the lines of the American organisation, but in these days of financial stringency and shortage of man-power it is, of course, quite impossible, and we must fall back on the intermediate method of reorganisation which I have outlined already. But I am convinced that the time will come when Civil Defence will require not only its own planning staff but a staff college and its own Ministry in Whitehall—in fact parity with the fighting Services. That is my personal view.
I should now like to put forward to His Majesty's Government an idea which I am sure will be well received by the Civil Defence organisation. It is that, with the consent of His Majesty, the Civil Defence organisation should be known as the Royal Civil Defence Corps. I have little doubt that such an honour would have a very great effect on recruiting for the organisation and would give it a proper status in the country commensurate with its importance. I need hardly remind your Lordships of the excellent precedent established by the title of the Royal Observer Corps, which did such excellent work during the war.
With the advent of atomic warfare I think the time has come when we must entirely re-cast our ideas about Civil Defence. I suggest that it has become such an important branch of our Defence Services that it requires much more consideration and detailed planning than it has received in the past. The whole problem of Civil Defence is, of course, a vast one, and I am sure your Lordships will be glad to have heard the announcement recently made by the Chief of the General Staff that the Army propose next year to study the whole problem of Civil Defence and its link-up with the Army. There is no doubt that in the past the whole matter has been treated in a very leisurely fashion by His Majesty's Government. This vital arm of the Defence Services should have been in the forefront of our defence plans; and this year, not next year, we should be looking for a re-organised and efficient Civil Defence Service.
I think we must ask ourselves the question whether the present concentration of population and industry can be defended against the various forms of attack from the air such as we may have from the atomic bomb, guided missiles and rockets. There is one school of thought which considers that this Island would quickly become untenable in the event of another war, and that complete dispersal of the population and industry abroad would be necessary. I do not believe that to be true. I maintain that it cannot be seriously argued that we should not endeavour to retain as long as possible our industrial potential and administration in this country, and, of course, prepare our plans accordingly. The scientific brains who designed the atom bomb and other weapons, such as guided missiles and rockets, are just as likely to perfect a system of interception and protection from these weapons. There is already some evidence to support this contention.
I need hardly point out to your Lordships that complete dispersal would, of course, be impossible to attain, but undoubtedly dispersal in a modified form is a possibility and could be accomplished. Certain large business organisations in this country have already worked out dispersal plans. I think there is little doubt that, with Government guidance, such plans could be accelerated and extended to many industrial and other activities in the country. I should like to ask His Majesty's Government what steps have been taken to consult industry on these important questions and, in addition, whether they have considered the need for providing information which would assist architects when they set out to design new factories and so on, so that they may conform with the Civil Defence plans. The London Chamber of Commerce have only recently discussed Civil Defence. They put forward the vital importance of the provision of static water tanks in London and, in fact, in all our great cities. I hope that His Majesty's Government will consider such provision, which is very important.
I do not want to worry your Lordships with a lot of scientific data. After a careful study of the official reports from Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Bikini, I think it may be concluded that there are certain definite steps which can be taken to protect the population of this country from

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the effect of atomic warfare. I suggest that the first of these steps is the consideration of our shelter policy. I should like to ask His Majesty's Government whether they can give your Lordships any indication of that policy. It is interesting and perhaps comforting to know that several hundred people at Nagasaki who were in tunnel shelters immediately below the bomb burst survived, and in many other areas of the city surface shelters which had been properly constructed stood up very well. There is little doubt that properly designed shelters can, in fact, give protection against anything other than a direct hit from an atomic bomb. But what do we find going on all over the country today? Shelters are being ripped out of their sitings, broken up and destroyed. This applies not only to shelters for the general public but to shelters which were built in and around the great factories up and down the country. I am not suggesting that all surface and underground shelters should be retained, but when their sites do not interfere with traffic or the daily life of the country I suggest that they should be maintained and kept in order. It was announced in the Press only recently that the city of Plymouth had started a drive to dismantle their air-raid shelters. I am sure that that sort of thing would not happen if His Majesty's Government gave some guidance on the matter.
I hope that His Majesty's Government will give the question of shelter policy serious consideration and issue advice to local authorities and industry generally, so that the wholesale demolition of air raid shelters which is actually going on at the present time will cease. I think that the advice to be given to local authorities must take into account other things such as the dangers to be guarded against and how they are to be mitigated. It is necessary to give protection, not only from the blast and heat radiation from an atomic bomb burst, but also from the dangerous gamma rays which are highly penetrating and lethal. The American investigating committee found that at Hiroshima persons in concrete buildings as near as 100 yards from the zero point of the explosion showed no clinical effects from radiation. I believe, in fact, that adequate shelters can be built, and old shelters can be redesigned and strengthened, so that casualties from
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radiation would be substantially reduced. Our deep shelters would, no doubt, give the best protection, but the Anderson and surface brick shelters, with additional protection, would be satisfactory, except when very close to the zero point of the explosion.
There is, of course, another serious danger which arises after an atomic explosion, and that is, the radio-active effect which is retained in an area for a considerable period and which is dangerous to life. Therefore it is necessary to devise means to indicate when it is safe for people to come out of their shelters. The period may be a few hours or a few days, according to the proximity of the explosion. In America instruments have been designed to indicate whether, and to what extent, an area is radio-active. Can His Majesty's Government inform your Lordships whether such instruments are now available in this country and, if not, what steps they have taken to provide them? No doubt His Majesty's Government are carrying out extensive research into all these difficult matters, but I think we must guard against the danger of delaying too long before producing some results from those investigations. We all know how easy it is to put off a decision on these difficult matters until the whole jigsaw puzzle is complete. I hope that His Majesty's Government will not put forward the old argument that a bigger and better atom bomb, which might make any preconceived shelter policy useless, may be designed at any moment. A somewhat similar and dangerous argument was advanced just before the last war, with very nearly disastrous results for the population of this country.
It has been said in many quarters that it will be difficult to raise any enthusiasm for Civil Defence plans and organisation. I suggest that that is only partly true. When people up and down the country realise that His Majesty's Government are themselves convinced of the appalling gravity of the problem, and show by their plans and organisation that they are really tackling it, I am sure there will be a ready response from the public. I feel that we must get away from the idea that measures for Civil Defence are more immoral, more irrevocable, and perhaps more fatalistic than the maintenance of a Navy or an Air Force. We must realise that we are now

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confronted with a fourth arm of the Defence Services equally as important as the older and more traditional ones. I beg to move for Papers.
4.39 p.m.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, one of my less agreeable duties in your Lordships' House is to try to persuade individual noble Lords to address you. Generally speaking, that is not easy to do, though i may say that it is easier than attempting the opposite, of trying to persuade noble Lords not to address your Lordships! However, on this occasion I have not been successful, and that is the reason why your Lordships now have the doubtful privilege of listening to me for a short time. I find myself in almost complete agreement with what my noble friend Lord Teynham has said. I should like the Government to tell us that they have the whole of this question under constant consideration because, of course, certain aspects of it are changing every day. I would ask whether, in addition to the Home Office representation to which the noble Lord referred, the science side is properly represented on the Committee who are considering these matters. That is a most important point.
During the late war, I was struck by the apparent conflict of authority which existed as between the various Civil Defence services, the Home Guard, the troops in this country, the A.R.P., the Fire Services, and so on, Is there to be any attempt to bring them all "under one hat"? Then there is this minor point. Is full use made of all the elements available for Civil Defence? One heard so often of old gentlemen (I am not instancing myself) who would have liked to continue to serve, and were really capable of doing so, after they had passed a particular age. I hope the age test will not be unreasonably applied, and that while a man is still physically capable of doing the sort of work that he has been doing he will be allowed to continue. I believe that the adoption of the noble Lord's suggestion that some status should be given to the Civil Defence worker would have a great effect. The ordinary Civil Defence or Home Guard volunteer is regarded very much as the old Volunteers of 50 years ago were regarded—almost with ridicule. Perhaps I am taking it a little too far, but in some parts, certainly, they are looked upon as being of no use. I am sure that
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more training and more care in their selection would be of benefit in the work that they have to do. There is little more that I need say, after what the noble Lord has told your Lordships. When I tried to obtain further information, everybody that I asked said the same thing: "Bridgeman knows all about it." So I feel that we are in safe hands.
4.41 p.m.
LORD DOUGLAS OF KIRTLESIDE: My Lords, I have listened with great interest, and indeed with a large measure of agreement, to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, in bringing his Motion before the House. I do not propose to cover all the same ground that he did; I propose to deal only with one part of the organisation of which he gave an outline—namely, the part which he called the "local static force." In effect, that is to a large extent what in the war we used to call the Wardens' Service. To ray mind that is an extremely important part of the Civil Defence organisation, and it came rather as a surprise to me when I discovered a few months ago that that part of the organisation does not exist to-day in any form whatsoever. It was disbanded in 1945, and has not yet been revived. I understand that plans are being discussed at the Home Office with a view to reviving the Wardens' Service, but those discussions are still going on. I gather, also, that two alternatives are under discussion. The first is that a Wardens' Service on the lines of that organised in or before the last war should be revived, and the second, that a looser organisation should be set up in which every able-bodied person might be expected to take a part. I am not clear as to how this second alternative would work, and I am bound to say that it does not seem to me that it would have a chance of being very efficient. After all, the Wardens' Service and Civil Defence workers require training; and how we are to give every able-bodied person training to be able to cope with what might happen in a future war, I really do not know. So at first blush, at any rate, I would plump for going back to an organisation on the lines of that which proved successful in the last war.
There is another point—and this is way I am particularly interested in this question. I happen to be patron of a body

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called The National Federation of Civil Defence Associations. This is a completely voluntary body of Civil Defence workers of the last war. They have banded themselves together in a number of associations, and have fused these associations into a National Federation. They are a voluntary body, they are not organised by the Home Office, by whom, it is alleged by some of the members to whom I have spoken on the subject, they are rather "cold-shouldered." But there they are. It is a spontaneous movement, and it is rather remarkable that, after a war is over, these people should voluntarily band themselves together, without any official encouragement, to keep alive the art of Civil Defence. Most of them have some premises or accommodation where they go for lectures, for discussions and for social intercourse. But, as I say, they are not officially recognised by the Home Office and some of them—not all—allege that the Home Office do not like them very much. I am sure that that is not true, but that is what they are beginning to feel. They are not being used, although they are ready to fill this gap in the Civil Defence organisation. It is a gap which, surely, will have to be filled some day—and, as I think, at an early date. These men had experience of the last war. They realise that the next war will not be the same as the last, and they are prepared to carry out additional training in order to fit themselves for anything that a future war may bring. All this enthusiasm, I am afraid, is gradually turning to apathy, and even resentment, because they feel the members are not being used; and I think that is a great pity.
The organisation which will have to be set up will, presumably, have to make use of the experience of the past, and here is the experience of the past, all ready and anxious to be used. I am afraid that if we delay too long these men will get discouraged, and there will not be the necessary response when the new Wardens' Service is formed. I would like to see a Wardens' Service, or a local static force which includes the Wardens' Service, set up at an early date and making use of this National Federation. They feel that they could be of use and, what is more, they feel that they could organise themselves if they were given a chance. They ask to be used.
There is one small point before I sit
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down, and that is that they do not want to be administered by the police. They feel that they can administer themselves, and they have no particular ambition to be placed under the police. That was the situation last time, and they do not see why they should be under the police next time. How much that feeling is justified I do not know, but surely in all conscience the police have enough to do nowadays with this wave of crime that we were discussing not long ago. They have plenty to do, without having this additional burden placed on their shoulders. Therefore, I would put in a plea for these people who have voluntarily organised themselves, who want to get going but who at the present moment are feeling frustrated.
4.48 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I intervene in this most interesting debate for only a few moments, in order to make one particular point. I would make a plea for speed and action in the preparation of our civil defences. I base that plea upon the admission of His Majesty's Government that in total war Civil Defence is an integral part of our total war effort. I think that point is beyond dispute. In this House, in another place and in the country as a whole, there have been representations which have met a ready response from the Government—that our Army, our Navy and our Air Force should be brought up to concert pitch, and should be ready at all times from now onwards if we should be aggressed from without.
As your Lordships know, the international situation is grim. There are those who say that this is a critical year, and there are those who say that next year or the year after will be the critical time. Opinions vary; but there is a general admission that, at any time, not of our seeking, danger may come upon this country. If that is so, it seems to me that the Government are out of step, because while, on the one hand, they admit that the Army, the Navy and the Royal Air Force should be ready, on the other hand, they seem slow and loth to bring the Civil Defence forces up to a stage of preparation comparable with that which they admit is necessary in our strategic forces.. I base my contention upon the last paragraphs in the Memorandum of the Home Office to the local

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authorities, and I would like to read to your Lordships just a part of a sentence out of one of those paragraphs:
"…much detailed study and preparation will be required before it is possible to make a start with the actual formation of the proposed new civilian services."
I do not think that we, as a country, can afford to accept the vista of almost limitless time which that Memorandum foreshadows.
I suggest that the Government should make a time-table of their plans for civil defence, and let local authorities know the dates by which the various stages should be completed. Let the time-table be published to the country, so that we all have a target to which we can work, and so that we shall know if we get behind at any stage. I am aware, as are other noble Lords who have been connected with Governments, and as are noble Lords opposite, that time-tables are not popular in Government Departments, You say to your advisers from time to time: "Are we behind-hand, or not?" Sometimes you find that you are and an extra urge has to be applied. Nevertheless, I believe that a time-table is a good form of self-discipline for any Government, just as it is for any individual. If, at the present time, there is no settled policy at the top—as, indeed, is admitted in this Memorandum—how can the local authorities be expected to prepare any detailed plans? No wonder there is confusion in the minds of men in this country as to where they stand in relation to the Territorial Force, in relation to their liability for Reserve Service, in relation to their wish to enter the Civil Defence organisation, in relation to their position in reserved occupations. If the man-power which will be required for this Civil Defence service is greater than that which was required during the last war—as is foreshadowed—then surely one of the first things the Government should do is to bring out a new list of reserved occupations, so that each man will know where he is at the present time and where he is likely to be in the future, should another war come—as, pray God, it may never do. But, in case another war does come, we have to be prepared.
In the next war, Britain may be likened to an aircraft carrier moored off the coast of Europe, from which operations are bound to take place and which
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is bound to be attacked, as aircraft carriers were attacked in the last war and as they will be in the next. We must protect those who have to live on that aircraft carrier. At the moment we are not ready. The needs of the hour must not be neglected because of the concentration on research for the future. The arrival of atomic war does not absolve His Majesty's Government from the responsibility for Civil Defence against aggression with existing weapons. It is all too easy to ride off the need for doing something merely by saying: "Of course, in the future, something different will eventuate." The position is too serious, I believe, for us to allow ourselves the time which is foreshadowed in this Memorandum. Therefore, my plea is that the Civil Defence forces should be brought up to date and up to a state of efficiency comparable with that of the Armed Services, without the delay foreshadowed in the document published by the Home Office.
4.55 p.m.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, in relation to this matter it seems to me that an important question to be answered is whether, in point of fact, we in this country are Civil-Defence-minded. I doubt it very much. Knowing that this debate was to take place, I mentioned the fact to a number of people during the last few weeks. Invariably the answers were to this kind of effect: "What a dull subject!"; "Is it really necessary?"; "How can we be expected to be interested in a subject like that?" I appreciate that it is a point of view expressed by only a few individuals, but I am inclined to think that it may be the point of view of a great many more people in the country. We seem to forget that having regard to the possibility of total war—which, I imagine, is the only kind of war we can expect to have in the modern world—we cannot put the clock back and think that responsibility for matters of defence can be left to the Armed Services. To do that, of course, is to bury our heads entirely in the sand. In modern war every man and woman has something to do towards defeating the enemy, and that fact has this corollary: that every man and woman and their employment are suitable objectives for attack by the enemy. That is a situation which, to my mind, has come to

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stay, and it is a change to which we have all to accustom ourselves. It may or may not be difficult in the Armed Services to grasp that change—I do not know—but it certainly is difficult in civilian life.
I do not believe that industry as a whole has faced up to that situation. All too often, industry is inclined to think: "We have a great job of another kind to do to-day, and we will brush aside all idea of Civil Defence as being none of our business." For so long have we regarded our Island as immune from outside attack and so deep-seated has that belief become, that I doubt very much whether, even after the Battle of Britain and all the destruction in London, Coventry and elsewhere, we really have the right attitude towards the paramount need for a Civil Defence organisation in which everyone will be concerned throughout the whole country. Until we get that right attitude towards Civil Defence, I am afraid that Civil Defence will continue to be regarded in peace time as something that does not need to be taken too seriously; and, of course, we shall suffer accordingly in war. I am not for a moment suggesting that the leaders of the Armed Services do not appreciate to the full the difficult problem that confronts us. But I do think that, taking the country as a whole—and, after all, it is the country as a whole which has the final say in these matters—there is that lack of conviction.
The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, has drawn attention to the discussion which the Chief of the Imperial General Staff has announced is going to take place at Camberley next year. Like Lord Teynham, I welcome that discussion, but I also would have liked to see it arranged for a somewhat earlier date. I note that, according to Press reports, there will be present, at the discussions, representatives from cities which were bombed in the last war. I do not know how far consideration of the whole matter has already gone, but I have fears that His Majesty's Government may not be approaching it on a sufficiently wide basis. I hope that the noble Viscount who is to reply will be able to give us some information on that particular point.
My noble friend, Lord Teynham, has referred to organisation. He suggested
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that the policy for Civil Defence should be made by the Minister of Defence. There I would entirely agree. For the co-ordinating authority on Civil Defence to be the Home Office smacks very much of a phrase we heard used all too often, and always derogatively, in the last war—"the private Army." In passing, I would say that not only Government Departments must be concerned in the early stages when matters of high policy are being considered; representatives of industry must also be called in. After all, industry will be responsible for implementing many decisions that are taken, and in many cases industry alone has the knowledge and experience to realise whether an effort decided upon is practical. Without taking too much of your Lordships' time, I would like to give two illustrations of the sort of thing I have in mind. The noble Viscount has mentioned the dispersal of population and of industry. I am a little sceptical about the possibility of being able to disperse the highly complex static organisation of industry. We may be able to disperse individual businesses and the civil population, but we cannot in a measurable numbers of years do more than a very small amount of dispersal of industry. A definite decision on this question is necessary. Are we to plan Civil Defence on the assumption that industry and its civil population will be where they are now, or on the assumption that they will be dispersed to a greater or lesser extent, in some way that we do not yet know?
Then take the question of black-out. I do not know whether, with modern methods of attack, black-out is necessary. The experts may be able to say that it is no longer necessary. I merely take that as an illustration. At the beginning of the last war we found that many industrial buildings, originally designed for efficient production with the best possible form of natural lighting, presented an enormous problem when it came to arranging black-out for them. Often it could be done only with considerable loss of productive efficiency, not only by day but also by night. This is a question which can be decided only by assessing the expert opinion, of the R.A.F., on the one hand, who know to what extent black-out may or may not be a hindrance to attacking aircraft, and, on the other hand, of industrial experts, who know

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the great disadvantage black-out measures would be to industry. I give these merely as illustrations and I do not want to express an opinion; but they are the type of problems which will arise. There are many other similar problems which will arise in radio-active war or bacteriological war.
It seems to me that before any detailed instructions on Civil Defence can be given to the Services which have to comply with them—the Army, the Navy, the Home Office and industry—these major questions of policy must be answered. It may be that the answers have already been given. It may be that the discussions at Camberley will be on a larger scale than indicated in the Press, and that matters of that sort will be decided. Whatever the answer, I would like to put this question to the noble Viscount who is to reply: Have the representatives of organised industry been invited to these discussions on policy? The Memorandum that has already been mentioned refers, in paragraph 12, to "a joint planning staff in conjunction with local industrial authorities." What has been done about that so far? If my information is correct, so far there has been no approach to the main industrial organisations. I should like to know the reason for that. Quite likely the answer may be that the plans are not yet sufficiently advanced to make any approaches, but that sort of answer is most unsatisfactory. In any future war, industry will have a vital part to play, particularly on the A.R.P. side of Civil Defence; and when matters affecting them are being settled, it is essential that industry should be considered—and considered not after the decisions have been made, but beforehand.
I realise that on this matter His Majesty's Government may perhaps be in some difficulty, because of the question of security. Obviously, security is as important in Civil Defence as in any other operation of war. But I do not think that is an insuperable problem. I realise also that most industrialists are already fully engaged and do not want any other tasks thrown upon them. But, for that very reason, I suggest that the main industrial organisations, such as the Federation of British Industries and others, not for getting the nationalised industries, should be represented at meetings when policy on Civil Defence is being considered, to
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make sure that the measures affecting industry are practical and, above all, that the case for them can be made really convincing.
Before the last war, there must have been many firms who were completely sceptical about whether their shelters, anti-gas arrangements and black-out would ever be put to use, with the result that many did no more than the minimum amount of work to satisfy the legal or moral obligations they may have had, somewhat regardless of whether, if the preparations were put to the test, they would stand up to it or not. I am quite certain that before the last war there was an immense waste of effort and material. To-day we cannot afford such a situation. We cannot afford to waste anything. I submit that industry to-day is no less patriotic than anyone, but it has by experience become even more suspicious and oven more sceptical of instructions from Government Departments. Therefore, it is all the more necessary that any steps in Civil Defence that have to be taken by industry in peace time should be agreed with the accepted and responsible representatives of industry as practical, as sound, and as capable of offering a convincing case. That is no more than reasonable to my mind, for though, presumably, work of this type will ultimately be paid for by the Government, there will be an interim period in which the firms themselves will have to finance it. At any rate, the effort of carrying out such work must fall on the firms who own the factories concerned.
There may be—I am certain there are—many types of industry where there will be unusual danger from enemy action, both to personnel and to plant, requiring particularly onerous forms of protection. My noble friend Lord Teynham asked whether any instruction had been given to architects when designing new factories. I would wholeheartedly support that suggestion. In my opinion, it should apply not only to the construction of new factories, or to the extension of old factories, but even to major repairs. It might even be that in certain cases licences for buildings could include conditions to comply with A.R.P. requirements. I do not think that is by any means too far fetched. I remember that in France, in 1940, a Royal Engineers officer drew my attention to certain road bridges. They

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were bridges which had been built in peace time, many years before there was any thought of war; but it was interesting to note that they had apparently included in their design certain cavities, presumably for the easy introduction of demolition charges should they have to be destroyed in the event of war. That seems to me to be a useful parallel with what might be done, and it might save a tremendous amount of effort and material later.
I would now like to say a few words about the training of personnel. Here again, I refer only to the personnel for those units described in this Memorandum as Civil Defence units at factories. We must go very carefully if we are to get the best results. Personally, in peace time, I would favour confining the obligation on firms to the provision of no more than really efficient fire brigades. I believe one would achieve much greater success in that way. One would be much more likely to maintain interest—which is an important factor—because, after all, a fire brigade is a brigade which has an obvious present practical use; and especially would interest be maintained if the members of the brigade were assured of adequate remuneration for the time spent on that work. By all means give the members of the brigade occasional opportunities for hearing something about the more interesting aspects of civil defence; but do not be too ambitious by asking firms to do this, that and all sorts of other things. If we are too ambitious in the early stages, I am sure we shall defeat our own object.
The points I have tried to make seem to me to be quite simple. Industry has a growing importance in any war, but, equally, industry will become increasingly vulnerable in any war, both from modern and future methods of attack. The part industry has to play will, therefore, inevitably become increasingly onerous. I have tried to underline what seems to my mind to be essential—namely, that the representatives of industry should have a say as equal partners with other services and authorities when matters of policy affecting Civil Defence are being framed. I say that because I believe it to be not so much in the interests of industry as in the national interest, which, after all, is the
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only interest that counts in war. Industrialists to-day feel themselves often to be harried and overworked, and certainly they do not want any more than is absolutely necessary thrust upon them. But they are as patriotic as anyone and, in my opinion, will do anything to assist Civil Defence, provided that they are convinced of the absolute necessity of what they are asked to do. You may call them hard-headed—I do not think they would object to that—but their training and experience make them essentially practical men. Just as a business man would pay no more for fire insurance than he is convinced is absolutely necessary, so in the matter of Civil Defence you have got to persuade him that what he is asked to do is absolutely necessary. You have to persuade him that the steps he has to take are not merely an unnecessary imposition, and not merely the whim of some official trying to keep his position. He will then help you. I maintain that the best way of ensuring that support from industry is by inviting the representatives of industry to come in at the very beginning and to help frame the policy for Civil Defence.
5.16 p.m.
EARL BEATTY: My Lords, I should like at the outset to support the plea of my noble friend Lord Teynham to prefix the word "Royal" before "Defence Corps" and to call it the "Royal Defence Corps." As my noble friend pointed out, there is the precedent of the Royal Observer Corps during the war. One of my pleasanter duties, when I was Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air for a short time, was to present the Colours to the members of the Royal Observer Corps, who were gathered together from all over the country. I can assure your Lordships that they were very proud of the fact that they were the Royal Observer Corps, and of the fact that they had their own Colours. I am sure it would provide a great incentive to recruitment if a defence corps could be called the "Royal Defence Corps."
The vast complexity of this subject, and the lack of substantial knowledge of what is in the minds of scientists and of the Services, and of the actual form of future warfare, makes it difficult to contribute much to a debate of this nature. But, in spite of the difficulties with which we

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are faced in Civil Defence, I am quite certain that unless the problem is tackled with considerably more vigour than it has been in the past we shall, in any future crisis, find ourselves in an extremely vulnerable position. I say that deliberately, because the extent to which the country is prepared in Civil Defence might well be the deciding factor as to whether or not an aggressor will let loose any of these terrible weapons of destruction. If we are not prepared, no enemy will think twice about starting this form of warfare, because he will know that the country will be completely disorganised in a few days. But if we are prepared, at least he will hesitate before commencing this form of warfare. If we are to survive the opening weeks of a future war, Civil Defence must receive the full attention of the country, not when war has come, but now.
When I read the report of the debate in another place it left me with the impression that the Government were only tinkering with the problem. That was in March. I trust that we shall have more explicit details of the programme when the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, replies for the Government this afternoon. I was left with the impression which I have described because, in spite of being pressed, the Government spokesman admitted that as yet there had been no decision on shelters; no definite instructions had been issued to local authorities, and no Civil Defence training had yet started. Who can say, after two years of almost open quarrelling with Russia, that any spirit of urgency has been inspired by this Government action? Furthermore, the Government reply in another place gave me the impression that they were inclined to shelter under the Defence Research Committee, presided over by Sir Henry Tizard, for not having made a decision. This Defence Research Committee may be a brilliant body of scientists, but it would be a very grave mistake to put too much "on their plate," and to wait for them to reach decisions. Every scientist will always feel that he is on the verge of discovering some better antidote, and will postpone the decision to go into production. In fact, he is reluctant to translate theory into practice, and I see a great danger in this Committee unless rapid and decisive decisions are soon taken. It is
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a mistake to put too much on their shoulders, and I for one would certainly sleep far more soundly at night if I thought that more prompt and serious decisions were being taken and would be put into operation soon, without waiting for the scientists to agree finally on the measures which should be taken. It is time that we passed from academic discussions and heard what actual plans had been formulated, and I hope the noble Lord will be able to give us some this afternoon.
There are only two questions that I want to ask the noble Viscount specifically to-night. The first is with regard to naval port areas. In the Memorandum produced from the Home Office for local authorities we read mach of the mobile military columns which are to be used—I quote—
"to reinforce areas in which the situation is beyond the capacity of the local forces."
Surely, in the naval dockyard areas, there should be some liaison and co-operation between naval authorities, and a well-trained naval force should be mobilised to combat the situation in an area with which they would be more familiar than military authorities. No doubt some ships would be lying alongside for repair, victualling, fuelling, and even in dock. Therefore, I feel that the Navy should also have its sphere of liaison with tie local authorities and should be brought into the picture of Civil Defence as a whole. I hope the noble Viscount will be able to assure us that some steps have been taken in this direction. I hope he will not say that it worked well enough in the last war. That is not the point. The next war will be far more serious, on the Civil Defence side, than the last; the liaison will have to be far closer, and the training far more forward than it was before.
Secondly, I should like to ask what steps are being taken to keep the Merchant Navy in line with modern defence measures in training and equipment. The Merchant Navy is now—I was going to say our fourth Service, but the noble Lord who opened this debate referred to the Civil Defence Corps as such, so perhaps one might say that the Merchant Navy is our fifth Service. As we know, in the last war the whole brunt of the fighting fell upon it in 1939 and 1940; and it was then the first Service. In war time, of course, the Royal Navy is responsible

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for keeping it up to date with modern weapons of defence. But what is the position in peace time? Who is responsible for keeping the Merchant Navy up to date in these matters? Who is responsible for ensuring that its members have their defensive training in atomic or biological warfare? Who is responsible for supplying them with any of the equipment they require? If the answer is: "The Ministry of Transport," I would ask: Are they doing anything about it? Have any committees been formulated, any instructions set out, or any liaison made?
These are matters which must be considered now, because, as I have said, in any future war, as in the past, the rapidity of the turn-round of our ships bringing us food and raw materials is the one vital factor in preventing our defeat. As your Lordships know, submarines alone in the past two wars have nearly achieved this in the early days. The combination of submarines, atomic and biological warfare might well achieve our defeat in the future unless adequate steps are taken before an outbreak, and not afterwards. So far as I know, this question of naval port areas, and of the Merchant Service, has not been mentioned in either House in any of the debates. I hope, therefore, that the Government will be able to give some reply this afternoon, and will be able to assure us that note has been taken of these points.
5.27 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend Lord Mersey for his estimate of my knowledge upon this subject. I sincerely hope that he is wrong, however, for if what I know about this subject now is all there is to be known, then I am sure that the whole matter is in a very parlous condition indeed. None the less, I thank him for the compliment. This debate has shown a genuine anxiety, in all quarters of the House, as to the present state of affairs, and a genuine desire that the matter should be proceeded with as quickly as possible. It has also shown, at least to me, that we have to be much more Civil Defence-minded—in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale—than perhaps we are at present. This debate seems to me to show clearly the uneven performance of the different Departments.
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On the one hand, one finds Ministries like the Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Fuel or the Ministry of Food, who spend their whole time building enormous organisations and collecting vast staffs; on the other hand, one finds what I would almost describe as the amateurishness of the Home Office—at any rate in an outward appearance—in dealing with this very important matter of Civil Defence.
Admittedly, the Home Office have been very busy during these last months with some important Bills. Their work on the Children Bill and the Criminal Justice Bill has been approved on all sides. Added to that they have had the British Nationality Bill—not perhaps approved in every quarter—and there have been their more dubious activities in the Representation of the People Bill. None the less, here is something which demands attention, and in fact has demanded attention since 1945, when plans had to be made to put our defences in order the moment that victory came to us. I have been trying for a long time to listen with my ear to the ground to see what has been happening. I have heard extremely little, and I believe that in Scotland the state of affairs is much the same. All the same, it seems quite clear to me—and more clear because we have passed the National Service Act—that there is a mandate to this Government to go ahead with Civil Defence. Moreover, unless they do go ahead with Civil Defence the Government cannot claim that they have discharged their responsibility in making the preparations which have to be made—unless they are going to wait until it is too late.
The only ray of sunshine in the whole of this rather dismal scene appears to me to be the action of the Chief of the Imperial General Staff in deciding that so far as he is concerned—he, I take it, being responsible only for the Army—he is going to concentrate next year on Civil Defence matters. We shall all of us, I think, be delighted that he has taken that view. Equally, none of us will be satisfied that that is the answer to the whole Civil Defence problem. It is not. True, we have been waiting for the results of research, and for the decisions which Sir Henry Tizard has to make on these matters; and it is perfectly true that research has to go on continuously. But research is wanted in certain directions, and action in others. Research is wanted,

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I should judge, in matters such as equipment, and the technique of dealing with situations which arise from enemy air attack and so forth. But research is not wanted in taking the fundamental and elementary steps in organisation which have so far, I believe, not been taken and about which, with your Lordships' leave, I should like to say a few words presently. What seems to have been ignored up to the present is the time factor. My noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye referred to that very important point. In matters of this sort the ordinary Whitehall tempo is not the right one. The right tempo is what I might describe as the "operational tempo." That is something of a different order from criminal justice and prison reform.
I do not propose to go into detail at this late hour. As to the set-up, little has been achieved up to now, I think it is because the set-up has not been right. There are two directions in which. I, with the little knowledge I possess, believe we should work to get the set-up right. The first is that it is unreasonable to expect anything to be done unless His Majesty's Government decide that Civil Defence is a matter which comes under the Chiefs of Staff. I am convinced of that. In the last war there was a partial measure of integration with the Chiefs of Staff. It was obtained through a Home Defence Committee in which a very distinguished Civil Servant, Sir Findlater Stewart, took a considerable part. But the results and the lessons of the war showed plainly that you cannot decide what should be the state of defence against enemy air attack on the ground except in terms of how you ward off an enemy attacker in the air. Therefore, until the Government decide that Civil Defence should be a function of the Chiefs of Staff, and perhaps appoint a fourth principal Staff officer to deal with that matter, I am certain that nothing more can happen.
I am not suggesting for a moment that Civil Defence should lose its civil character. There should be a Civil Defence member on the Chief of Staffs Committee, in the same way as the Home Secretary—or Minister of Home Security, whichever he is to be in the next war—should be a member of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet. Instructions would then go down from the Defence Com
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mittee to the Chiefs of Staff. Some would go to the Admiralty, some to the War Office, some in their turn to the Home Office, which would be dealing with Civil Defence, and some would go to the Departments responsible for industry and so forth. In that way I think the set-up at the top would be right, and there would be reasonable hope that executive work would be broken down, stage by stage, until finally a definite plan was sent out to local authorities (the fire service, the police, the wardens and everyone else) who had to implement it.
One major step must be to get a grip of part-time man-power. We all know well that one of the foundations of our victory in the last war was the grip which the Government had on the full-time manpower of the country; and we know how that grip was exercised by those responsible, including the present Foreign Secretary, then Minister of Labour. But if that was true then, it is true now that we need an equal grip on the part-time man-power and part-time woman-power. We had in the last war a ridiculous and nonsensical competition for their services. We also had ridiculous and nonsensical calculations made by different Departments of what they wanted. The result was that not only did we divide our part-time man-power into small watertight compartments, which were difficult to interchange when needed, but we also produced calculations which were so unrealistic that if persons had been taken for the fire-watching service up to the prescribed figure there would have been no one left to do anything else.
Here we have a perfectly clear lesson, and that is one reason why I think we should now take the steps; suggested. If necessary, we should pass a Statute, which could be brought into force by Order in Council, in order that we can control part-time man-power and woman-power; and, having done that, we should work out a plan whereby these men and women could be used and trained for the necessary purposes. For example, there is no need to have a rigid dividing line between Civil Defence and the Home Guard. In the country districts that never made sense. It is also necessary that the people should be properly trained. In the years from 1939 to 1941 we were living in a fool's paradise in believing that the people we had for this duty were trained.

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They were deemed to be trained, but they were not trained. Now, the situation has altered: we have military service, and the Government have the power. I hope that steps will be taken in this direction, and that a certain amount of training will be given which will be of use to those who carry out their military service, after they complete that service. They may, of course, find themselves in a reserved occupation; but even then, they will have had some training during their military service, sufficient to shorten the period necessary to make them efficient in their Civil Defence job.
One could go on at great length on this subject. It is a very serious matter, and there is much to be said. I want to say only very little more because those are the three points: the appointment of a Chief of Staff, a grip on man-power, and the determination of reserved occupations. If those are settled the plan will work. Of course, there is a fourth requisite, and that is finance. I shrewdly suspect that the allocation of money to the Home Office for this purpose has not been enough to allow even the most elementary and necessary plans to get under way. However, that is a matter more for the other place than for us. So there we are. Many of my noble friends, and in particular Lord Balfour of Inchrye, have asked for speed and action in the matter. I would add my request to theirs.
5.41 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, the debate on this very important matter has been a short one but, if I may say so, a most effective one. It has been a friendly debate in which many points have been brought out in the various speeches. I wish that I were able to give a reply as effective as the points that were made during the course of the debate. In dealing with this matter, I should like to draw attention to one general question. It is rather interesting to note the continued pressure which is being brought to bear by noble Lords opposite—I am not complaining—in regard to all the Defence Services and, at the same time, the pressure which is sought to be brought, and indeed is brought, to bear in regard to building up the peace-time economy of the country. I think those matters must bear some relation to one another, because in
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dealing with Defence many of the difficulties really arise by reason of the pressure and the speed which are so absolutely essential to bring about a complete restoration of the economic life of the nation. It is mainly a question of manpower, but there is also the question of money.
I think it can be said that His Majesty's Government have endeavoured so far as possible to face up to their responsibilities, taking into consideration the desire for speed and urgency in relation to both those phases of our national life. I think it will be admitted, in the first instance, that priority should be given to the complete restoration of our economic power. If that is so, then we cannot expect straight away to have what might be regarded as anything like an adequate Defence organisation. I am not going to distinguish between the Fighting Services and the Civil Defence organisation because they are all of great importance. But the amount of man-power and woman-power of this country is limited. There are 20,000,000 people engaged in industry at the present time. We have demobilised from the Services and, indeed, from war industries something like 6,000,000 or 7,000,000 people, and only three years have passed since the cessation of hostilities.
I can quite understand the reply some of his friends gave to the question which was put by the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale—that Civil Defence was a dull subject. Of course it is a dull subject. We are now suffering as a result of the tremendous sacrifices in wastage of human life, material and money, which this country had to make during the long years of war—all of which wastages will have to be made good before we can have any certainty in regard to our future economic position, upon which the whole of our national life depends. That is one of the difficulties we have to encounter in dealing with the problems of Defence. I am not making these remarks in the form of an excuse, but I would ask my noble friends to realise that, good as the present Government are, they cannot deal with all these subjects at the same time.
Noble Lords have rightly asked a number of questions. The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, inquired whether I could inform your Lordships as to the progress which has been made in Civil Defence

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since the matter was last discussed in your Lordships' House. When the Home Office Memorandum, to which the noble Lord referred, was circulated at the end of last year, His Majesty's Government announced that it would be discussed between the Home Office and the local authorities. A meeting at which all the Local Authority Associations were represented was held some ten days ago, and the tentative proposals—for, after all, the Memorandum contained only tentative proposals, proposals for discussion—were put forward and were discussed in broad outline. The form of the legislation which will need to be introduced in the near future, whatever Civil Defence plans are ultimately adopted, was also discussed, and legislation for dealing with certain points is now in course of preparation. This legislation must be passed before His Majesty's Government have the necessary powers to do many of the things sought to be done.
I was very interested in the most constructive speech which was made by the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale. I was pleased that he brought out a point which I think is most useful—that industry should be consulted in relation to proper plans for Civil Defence. I personally agree with him. It has not been possible yet to bring industry into consultation, but I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the points which were so effectively put by the noble Lord in relation to this matter. I am a great believer in bringing in industry. There should, in exactly the same way, be a complete liaison between industry and the local authorities in dealing with a matter which concerns everyone. It is not going to be a matter of the allocation of manpower or woman-power to deal with Civil Defence in the event of emergency in this country; it is going to mean every hand to the plough, I do not think that the noble Viscount, Lord Mersey, need have any anxiety as to age limits in relation to that matter. Probably he and I will be asked to put our hands to the plough. I have no doubt that I shall be as ready as he will be to meet the demand when it comes.
There are the problems. They are of such magnitude that indeed we must harness every available part of our resources to deal with them. The reaction of the local authorities to the financial proposals, of the Memorandum—they took
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a very determined view in relation to this matter—was such that, further consideration will need to be given to them. Your Lordships will recall that, while major capital expenditure incurred specifically on account of Civil Defence under the Government's general plan should in principle be borne by the Exchequer, it was felt that a contribution should be made by local authorities in the case of other items of expenditure. The local authorities contend that the whole cost of Civil Defence should be borne by the Exchequer as in the case of the Armed Forces, and His Majesty's Government are now considering to what extent the proposals in the Memorandum might be modified.
As to the suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, regarding the new Civil Defence forces and their future organisations, all I can say is that they still remain matters for discussion in detail. The meeting agreed that the local authorities should nominate a small panel of local representatives, preferably of those with experience of Civil Defence in the last war, whom the Home Office could invite to attend Departmental discussions on the many problems which will arise in connection with the drawing up of plans for the Civil Defence of the future. This would ensure that due expression is given to the views of local authorities and that those views will receive due weight in the formation of these recommendations. The importance of local knowledge cannot be overrated, and our experience of Civil Defence in the last war has shown how important it is that in any future plans we should recognise the part which local authorities will have to play; indeed, without them and their experience no Civil Defence scheme could ever hope to be a complete success.
Some noble Lords who have taken part in the debate have referred to the position of the Home Secretary. This point was stressed by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, when he suggested that the Home Secretary should be a member of the Defence Committee, and that the Minister of Defence and the Defence Committee should be responsible for Civil Defence policy. I think it might help if I were to give in outline the machinery for dealing with this problem. You will then I think agree that provision is adequately made for determining policy and for ensuring ultimate responsibility by

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the Cabinet. The White Paper on a Central Organisation for Defence which was issued in 1946, indicated that the desirability of extending the functions of the Minister of Defence to cover the field of home security had been considered. The Government view, given in paragraph 33 of the White Paper, was expressed as follows:
"They"—
that is His Majesty's Government—
"have concluded, however, that it would be wrong to do this. Home security embraces a large number of activities apart from the Air Raid Precautions and Fire Services, such as the maintenance of food supplies for the civil population, transport, hospitals and so on which fall within the province of the Civil Ministries; and to give the Minister of Defence charge of all this would be to give him functions from outside his intended scope. It will be the duty of the Defence Committee to link home security to broad Defence policy and the Home Defence Committee has already been reconstituted for that purpose."
The Home Defence Committee has been succeeded by the Civil Defence Committee, and on it are represented all the Departments concerned with Civil Defence, together with representatives of the Chiefs of Staff. A Civil Defence Joint Planning Staff has been set up in the Home Office under the chairmanship of Major-General Irwin, and it has the responsibility of examining and reporting on matters of Civil Defence policy, and co-ordinating the preparation of detailed Civil Defence plans. All the civil Departments closely concerned with Civil Defence are represented also on the Joint Planning Staff as well as the War Office and the Air Ministry, while representatives of other Departments are co-opted as required. The Joint Planning Staff submits its proposals to the Civil Defence Committee of the Home Office for approval, and obtains from that Committee guidance on all matters involving major planning policy. The Civil Defence Committee carries out its duties under the general authority and direction of the Defence Committee, and in this way the responsibility for Civil Defence policy rests with the Cabinet.
Your Lordships will see that there is on this Committee a close link existing interdepartmentally and with the Service Departments, and the connection with the Defence Committee and the Cabinet is very close. There is adequate consultation with the Service Departments at all
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stages and at all levels on Civil Defence planning and policy. The scheme, in fact, follows very closely the lines of that which proved so successful in the last war and which indeed, not so very long ago, was spoken so well of in another place by Sir John Anderson—and he can speak with some authority on this matter. He then pointed out that the system of Civil Defence was organised not under a single centralised control, but by making use of Government Departments with peacetime functions analogous to those which would have to be discharged by the Civil Defence organisation in war. He referred to the responsibility of the Home Office for security and good order; of the Ministry of Health for emergency medical services and for first aid centres; of the Ministry of Education, with the Ministry of Health, for organising evacuation; and of the Ministry of Food for the feeding arrangements for homeless persons. The Home Office was given a general responsibility over the whole field for co-ordination. The Government are now proceeding on a similar basis, and one moreover which has stood the test of experience. It is true that the Home Secretary is not a regular member of the Defence Committee, and it was interesting to note that the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, said that even if he was a member he need attend that Committee only when matters concerning Civil Defence were being raised. That is just what he is doing at the present time. Whenever there is any question concerning Civil Defence, then the Home Secretary is in attendance.
An important item in any long term proposals for Civil Defence is the question of dispersal. That point was referred to by two noble Lords. It is the policy of His Majesty's Government to secure the maximum dispersal of all vital industry. Under the Distribution of Industry Act all building schemes involving any increase of any magnitude in industrial capacity or employment have to receive governmental approval. A ministerial committee under the chairmanship of the Economic Secretary to the Treasury has the responsibility of supervising the development and the execution of the Government's policy for securing a balanced distribution of industry. This Committee are advised by an official Committee on which the Air Ministry are represented, to ensure that full consideration is given to all matters concerning the

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strategic location of industry. In addition, new developments in the gas, oil, electricity and aircraft industries, in particular, are covered by definite plans agreed between the Air Staff, the Home Office and the undertakings concerned.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, dealt, in the course of his speech, with difficulties that can arise in relation to the dispersal of industry. It is certainly a process which is not so easy as it may appear on paper, especially in these days when heavy industries are centred on the coalfields, and when other industries are grouped in large industrial centres. You have only to discuss this matter with some of the industrialists to ascertain what their attitude would be. Notwithstanding that they are undoubtedly intelligent people, capable of appreciating the strategic value of dispersal, all kinds of difficulties arise in this connection. It is obvious, of course, that economic and strategic considerations must often clash, and a final decision on any particular proposal must usually be a compromise solution.
Reference has been made during the debate to the important question of shelter policy. In this matter His Majesty's Government are advised on its technical aspect by the Minister of Works. The Minister has an interdepartmental Committee which is now working on the designs of shelters required to give protection against all forms of aerial attack—including attack by atomic bomb, by guided missiles, and by all kinds of missiles. Naturally, the experience gained as the result of the dropping of atom bombs at the end of the last war has to be taken into consideration. And who will say that it is possible, in such a short time, to do more than have technicians at work to advise, to plan and to deal with every aspect of the eventualities which may arise in the next war? Noble Lords will realise that there are questions relating to equipment, material, labour and cost to be dealt with in respect of the design of each shelter. The Committee will also consider the most suitable forms of design and construction for factory buildings, office blocks, blocks of flats and other buildings. His Majesty's Government will certainly consider the recommendations of this Committee, and the steps which can be taken to implement them, having regard to the demand on labour and materials which would be involved. Once policy has been
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settled, local authorities and architects and engineers, through their professional institutions, will be informed of the precautions that it is desirable to take.
There is hardly any need for me to remind your Lordships of the great demands which at the present time are being made upon steel and other materials. My Department have to deal with the building of merchant shipping. We have had to reduce the delivery of steel for the building of such shipping, important as that industry is, by a considerable amount, compared with what was allocated last year. This was not done because there was any desire to do it, but simply because we had to make as fair allocations as possible to the essential industries. The use of labour and materials on shelters can be authorised only at the expense of other essential work—at the expense of housing schemes, hospitals, schools, road improvements, and other desirable peace-time schemes. The priority to be accorded to shelters is one of the matters which will need the Government's careful consideration. It would be premature for me to attempt to forecast in detail the shape which plans for a Civil Defence Organisation will eventually take. It has already been announced that military mobile columns will form an important feature of the organisation, in support of local mobile and static forces. The Joint Planning Staff, which is responsible for working out the details of a scheme based on this broad outline, will also consider how far the present scheme of regional organisation would need adaptation or modification for operational purposes in war. This organisation remains in being, though, of course, on a reduced scale and without the appointment of Regional Commissioners at its head, and it could well provide machinery for taking over some of the functions of the Home Office in matters of organisation.
Whatever detailed scheme emerges, I can assure your Lordships that His Majesty's Government recognise the need for the closest co-operation with people on the spot. Indeed, it will be the duty of all who may be appointed to act as area commanders, district commanders, or controllers in any Civil Defence scheme to ensure, as an essential feature of a successful operation, that co-operation is maintained with local people. In the final

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issue, of course, the success of a plan depends upon the men and women who are asked to carry it out. The Civil Defence Organisation will require recruits, and recruits will need to be trained; so we must think of our plans for training instructors before we can start a recruiting campaign. Unfortunately, the Home Office training schools have had to be used for other purposes, but one of them is to be released shortly, and we are hoping that early next year it will have reverted to its rôle of providing instructors in Civil Defence. Indeed, we are hoping that a start will be made in January.
I was much interested by the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Kirtleside. I agree with him that it is absolutely essential to retain the interest of the people, particularly of those who served in any of these capacities during the last war. It is true, as the noble Lord said, that there are now no wardens but, as he knows, a good deal of interest still remains. I am sure that we have not lost the interest of large numbers of men and women who formed the Civil Defence Services of the last war. Many of them have formed themselves into clubs and associations, as the noble Lord has mentioned. They have formed these clubs and associations for the purpose of keeping alive their war-time associations and friendships, and for maintaining their interest in Civil Defence. It is interesting to note that no fewer than 700 of these clubs and associations are in existence at the present time. They are to be found in all parts of the country—in large cities like London, Birmingham, Manchester and Newcastle, and also in the less densely populated areas of Dorset and Hampshire. The noble Lord suggested that the Home Office give little encouragement to the members of these organisations. As far back as 1945 a circular was sent out by the Home Office to local authorities requesting them to do everything possible to assist these associations. The Home Office provide films and lectures on Civil Defence, and are doing all they possibly can to encourage these organisations. The fact that no fewer than 80,000 members are already enrolled in them is an indication of their desire to serve their country and of their interest in Civil Defence work.
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I am afraid that I shall have to say again that research is proceeding in the several fields with which Civil Defence planning is concerned. I have referred to the consideration which is being given to the design of shelters and to the forms of construction of large industrial and residential buildings. In addition, investigations designed to enable suitable forms of protection to be provided against the various dangers which may ensue from future forms of attack are on foot. They cover all the aspects mentioned by the noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, including points connected with the atomic bomb, radiation of heat and contamination, gas and bacteriological warfare, and so on. I do not think we ought to speak lightly of the work being done by the scientists, led by Sir Henry Tizard, a man of outstanding ability. The addition to the Home Office staff of an eminent scientific adviser has already been announced, and it will be his function to keep the Civil Defence planning staff in touch with new developments and to ensure that the needs of Civil Defence receive full attention by those engaged in research.
The noble Earl, Lord Beatty, referred to the position of the Royal Dockyards and to the desirability of close liaison with local authorities in matters of Civil Defence. As I have said, there must be close co-operation between all local authorities, irrespective of the type of industry in the area; and that applies, of course, to the Royal Dockyards. This co-operation is absolutely essential, and the noble Earl may be assured that it will be continued. The noble Earl also raised the question of Civil Defence for the Merchant Navy in peace time. Civil Defence is not the responsibility of any one Department. Every Government Department will assume responsibility for the organisation of Civil Defence in those undertakings over which the Department have some form of general responsibility, and the requirements of merchant seamen will not be forgotten.
The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, is a modest man, but he has a vast knowledge of the subject of Civil Defence, and he raised some very important questions about the difficulties of man-power. In the event of an emergency it will be "all hands to the plough," and the calls which will be made for the Defence Ser-

1217
vices and for Civil Defence will be such that, whatever the work a person is doing, whether in a reserved occupation or not, he will have some additional defence work to do. I have taken too much of your Lordships' time. May I repeat, in conclusion, what has been said so many times? No defence plan can ignore the importance of Civil Defence and the need for full adequate arrangements in that field, no less than in the field of military affairs. I would like to assure your Lordships that His Majesty's Government do not under-estimate the great importance of proper preparation in this very important sphere of defence.
6.17 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I must confess that I am a little disappointed in the reply given by the noble Viscount. The whole organisation of Civil Defence seems to be very much in its infancy, and perhaps that is the justification for this debate. The noble Viscount said that the Home Secretary was not a regular member of the Defence Committee. Are we to understand from that that he is a member of that Committee
VISCOUNT HALL: The Home Secretary is not a member of the Committee. He may be regarded as a member when summoned. When there are questions which concern Civil Defence, the Home Secretary is summoned to the Committee.
LORD TEYNHAM: I am grateful for the explanation. I regret very much that the Minister of Defence is not to be responsible for policy. I feel that unless the Minister of Defence is responsible for policy we shall not have a proper chain of command right through the Civil Defence organisation. I was interested to hear what the noble Lord had to say about shelter policy—that the Ministry of Works are already engaged on designs and are going into the whole matter thoroughly. I was also interested to hear what he said about: research, but I would like to make this point again: we must be very careful not to carry on research too long without producing results. On the assurance given by the noble Viscount that all these matters are being looked into, I bog leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

DARLINGTON CORPORATIONTROLLEY VEHICLES (ADDITIONAL ROUTES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (REDCAR) BILL.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (SWANAGE) BILL.
PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

ASCOT RACE COURSE BILL.UNIVERSITY OF SHEFFIELD (LANDS) BILL.
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

NATIONAL INSURANCE (MARINERS) REGULATIONS, 1948.
NATIONAL INSURANCE (AIRMEN) REGULATIONS, 1948.
NATIONAL INSURANCE (INDUSTRIAL INJURIES) (MARINERS) REGULATIONS, 1948.
NATIONAL INSURANCE (INDUSTRIAL INJURIES) (AIRMEN) REGULATIONS, 1948.
POLICE PENSIONS REGULATIONS, 1948.
POLICE PENSIONS (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS, 1948.
CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (QUOTAS) ORDER, 1948.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Special Orders as required by the Standing Orders of the House; That in their opinion the provisions of the Orders raise important questions of policy and principle; That the Orders are net founded on precedent; That in the opinion of the Committee the Orders cannot be passed by the House without special attention, but that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution to approve the said Orders: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

PORTSMOUTH AREA (CONSERVATION OF WATER) ORDER, 1948.
Report by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons under Section 3 of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945,
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that no Petition has been presented against the Order: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past six o'clock.