Sitting of 12 July 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock.
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; Amendments made to the Bill; Bill to be read the Third time.
  SALFORD CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Civic Restaurants
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Food whether he will give the number of civic restaurants which have been opened during the past year; the number closed by local authorities during the same period; and what steps he is taking to help local authorities to open up these restaurants, in view of the high prices charged in cafes under private ownership.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill): I regret that I am unable to give the exact information but 1,098 Civic Restaurants were operating on 29th March, 1947, and 773 on 3rd January, 1948, the latest date for which figures are available. My Department and the Ministry of Health are both eager to help local authorities to open civic restaurants but the initiative must lie with the local authorities.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware of the very great importance of these restaurants to workers in industries where there are no canteens, and will every step be taken not only to encourage, but to incite and inspire local authorities to get civic restaurants operating?
    Dr. Summerskill: I fully agree with what my hon. Friend has said and I am willing to inspire local authorities but not to incite them.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: Is not the reason why civic restaurants have been closed in many places the tremendous cost to the rates?
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. I cannot agree that that is always the case.

    Fish and Chip Shops, Midlands
    Mr. Wyattasked the Minister of Food how many fish and chip shops there are in Burton-on-Trent and Birmingham, respectively; and how many people are served by each fish shop as a proportion of the total population in each town, respectively.
    Dr. Summerskill: There are 36 fried fish and chip shops in Burton-on-Trent and 460 in Birmingham. The number of people served by each friend fish shop is 1,366 and 2,387 for Burton-on-Trent and Birmingham, respectively.
    Mr. Wyatt: In view of the fact that Birmingham is grossly under-served by fish and chip shops compared with Burton-on-Trent, would my hon. Friend explain why she consistently refuses applications for licences to open new fish and chip shops in Birmingham where they are so grossly "under-fish-and-chip-shopped"?
    Dr. Summerskill: I would like my hon. Friend to know that during the last five years 74 licences for fish and chip shops have been given for Birmingham against one for Burton-on-Trent.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Will the hon. Lady remember that the need for opening more fish and chip shops in areas where more houses are being built is very prevalent in Lancashire, and will she be a little more generous in those areas?

    Dehydrated Potatoes
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food in view of the large number of tins of dehydrated potatoes which remain unsold, what steps he proposes to take to dispose of these to prevent, deterioration by long storage.
    Dr. Summerskill: I do not consider that any special arrangements need be made to

    819
    dispose of stocks held by distributors: some of those in the hands of manufacturers have already been sent to Berlin.
    Mr. De la Bère: Can the Minister tell us whether the stocks which are held throughout the country were produced in this country or whether they were purchased with dollars from America? I am not clear whether they were home produced or imported.
    Dr. Summerskill: A large part of them was home produced.

    Rice
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the Minister of Food what steps he is taking to ensure full delivery of rice from Burma during the rest of the year, now that supplies of textiles and other goods to Burma are to be drastically curtailed.
    Dr. Summerskill: The Burma Government, for whom we act as agents in the sale of rice, is represented on the International Emergency Food Committee and is under an obligation to adhere to the principles of allocation. There are no conditions attached to the sale of rice and reductions in imports of other goods are therefore, unlikely to affect the situation. In any case, I am not aware that supplies are being drastically curtailed.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the hon. Lady ask the Board of Trade and find out the real facts? Does she remember that the agreement approved by the I.E.F.C. in Siam failed by 70 per cent. to deliver the rice, and will she make certain that there is not a repetition of that failure?
    Dr. Summerskill: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the rice sent from Burma is up to schedule. As to the first part of his supplementary question, we made inquiries from the Board of Trade before I answered the Question.

    Pigeon Food
    Mr. David Rentonasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the scheme, which he proposes to inaugurate in September for the allocation of pigeon food, will provide each of the 70,000 bona fide pigeon fanciers in Great Britain with enough food to keep only two pairs of pigeons, whereas it is necessary for each pigeon fancier to keep seven pairs of
    820
    pigeons if he is to engage in racing; and whether he will reconsider his proposed scheme and replace it by one which will enable pigeon racing to continue.
    Dr. Summerskill: I am sorry, but no significant increase in pigeon food is possible without reducing the allocation of pulses and grain for more important uses, and I do not think, therefore, that any purpose would be served by reconsidering the new distribution scheme.
    Mr. Renton: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that that decision means that pigeon racing is to receive a crippling blow, and will she do her best to bear in mind the need for keeping going this sport, which has a national advantage?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am well aware of the fact that these pigeon fanciers are very fine men and that it is a harmless and attractive sport, but the hon. Member must realise that we must put human beings before racing pigeons.
    Mr. Renton: Is the hon. Lady aware that I do realise that, and that she should not make these constant allegations against Members?
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say what steps are being taken to safeguard food for those who are keeping pigeons for export? Is there not a considerable export of some of our best pigeons?
    Dr. Summerskill: As far as I know the exporters are quite happy.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that there is a very important defence side to this question? It may be a pleasant sport in peace time, but these pigeons are of definite importance in war time.

    Malayan Tea
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsleyasked the Minister of Food what price per lb. his Department offered to Malayan growers for their tea; and how this price compared with the price offered to Ceylon growers for tea of the same quality.
    Dr. Summerskill: The Ministry's offers for Malayan teas were based on the prices payable to Ceylon and Indian producers for teas of similar quality and were fully comparable with those.
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Will the hon. Lady tell me these prices? My information is that they are below the prices being given to the Ceylon producers, although the tea is of the same quality. They are certainly below the cost of production in Malaya.
    Dr. Summerskill: I have told the House on many occasions it is quite impossible to give these prices because it would hamper our negotiations.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Is the hon. Lady aware that everyone concerned knows the prices being paid in Ceylon and Malaya, and that the Malayan price is very much lower?
    Dr. Summerskill: In that case perhaps the hon. Member will tell his hon. Friend.

    Carcase Meat (Stocks)
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsleyasked the Minister of Food how much carcase meat has been added to stocks as a result of the saving in consumption enforced by the dock strike; and whether he will arrange a compensatory increased issue of carcase meat on the ration in the near future.
    Dr. Summerskill: The dock strike caused us to issue canned corned meat in lieu of some 17,500 tons of carcase meat. Owing to the delay in the turn-round of refrigerated shipping a comparable quantity of fresh meat was not added to our stocks: consequently the reply to the second part of the Question is "No. Sir."
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Is it not a fact that 20,000 or 30,000 tons of carcase meat were saved as a result of the cut made last week, and cannot this meat be added to the rations on some future occasion?
    Dr. Summerskill: I thought I had made my answer quite clear. This does not necessarily mean a saving. There was a delay in the turn-round of the ships, and the hon. Member must realise that we not only make contracts with exporting countries, but undertake to take their exportable surplus, and to take it in a specified time, and if we do not take it in a specified time it may be we shall lose some of this surplus.
    Mr. J. S. C. Reid: Does that mean that the dock strike not only delayed our supplies, but diminished the total quantity of meat we shall receive in the year?
    Dr. Summerskill: It is impossible to say at this stage.

    Meat Purchases, Canada
    Mr. Heathcoat Amoryasked the Minister of Food whether purchases of meat from Canada by the United Kingdom are, at present, limited by availability of supplies or lack of dollars.
    Dr. Summerskill: Our supply of dollars is not sufficient to enable us to buy all the meat and bacon from Canada that she would be prepared to sell us.

    Vegetables and Fruit (Processing)
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the Minister of Food how many of those plants set up during the war for dehydrating vegetables are now in operation.
    Dr. Summerskill: Five, under private ownership.
    Mr. Scott-Elliot: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that these vegetables are very important for winter consumption, and can something be done to see that there are greater supplies available?
    Dr. Summerskill: I have already had a Question today in which an hon. Member alleges that there is a surplus of dehydrated potatoes.
    Sir Frank Sanderson: Does the figure of five include those plants erected in Ireland, and were not those plants in Ireland erected at the cost of the British Goverment?
    Dr. Summerskill: I have been asked how many of these plants set up during the war are now in operation. I understand that there are five, but we have 25 altogether. I am not sure how many there are in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Baldwin: Will the Parliamentary Secretary make further inquiries regarding these factories, because I think she will find that many are closing down due to the position in regard to imports of these vegetables from Holland?
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the Minister of Food what steps are being taken to increase the output of frozen vegetables and fruit which can be consumed during the winter months.
    Dr. Summerskill: We are giving every encouragement to this industry. So Jar this year 35 plants have been licensed compared with only 13 two years ago. We expect the home produce tonnage in 1948 to be more than three times that of 1947.

    Meals Orders (House of Commons)
    Mr. Challenasked the Minister of Food what requests he has made to the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee concerning the observance of the Meals in Establishments Orders; and when were these made.
    Dr. Summerskill: None, Sir. But I would add that the House of Commons Refreshment Rooms have always been regarded as ordinary catering establishments and are in fact licensed by the Ministry. We have never considered the possibility of enforcement because we have not contemplated that it could ever be needed.
    Mr. Challen: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that during the last Parliament the Minister of Food recognised he could not give orders to the Kitchen Committee, and the matter was put on the basis of a request?
    Dr. Summerskill: I could not agree with that. I remember reading the answer of the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, Sir Bracewell Smith, and he made it clear that he was guided by the regulations of the Ministry of Food.
    Captain Marsden: Is the hon. Lady aware that when Sir Bracewell Smith gave evidence before the Select Committee, he said very definitely that the catering establishments in this House were not bound by any laws or regulations? Is it not a fact that the licensing permit for food is only for the introduction of food into this establishment, and that there is no control on how it is distributed when it gets here?
    Dr. Summerskill: This is an interesting point. I have consulted a legal expert on this, and I have come to the conclusion that it can only be decided in the courts.

    Meat Trade Associations (Payments)
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlainasked the Minister of Food what further consideration has been given to the question
    824
    of payments by his Department to the Meat Importers National (Defence) Association, Limited, and the Wholesale Meat Supply Associations; and if he will make a statement.
    Dr. Summerskill: I regret that I am not in a position to make a statement at the present time.
    Mr. Chamberlain: Does not my hon. Friend realise that millions of pounds of public money are being paid each year by way of compensation to these associations, and does she think it is justified?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am sure my hon. Friend must realise that we cannot change over at this stage until we have devised a long-term policy—and we are trying to do that now.
    Mr. Tolley: Will the Parliamentary Secretary say when she will be in a position to reply to this important question, because it is an important question?
    Dr. Summerskill: May I tell my hon Friend that we are considering the matter?
    Mr. Baldwin: Does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that the Minister of Food is only too anxious to retain the machinery set up by the different organisations, and that they are only too willing to be allowed to do their own job.

  SOAP RATION
  Lieut. - Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlamasked the Minister of Food whether he will state the approximate amount of soap supplied to the general public, as compared with the amount supplied to hospitals and institutions and other users on permit.
  Dr. Summerskill: About 213,000 tons per annum (in terms of hard soap) goes to the general public, and about 95,000 tons per annum to non-domestic users against permits.
  Sir C. Headlam: Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell me why permit holders in the case of hospitals and institutions are not allowed to change their suppliers in the same way as private consumers?
  Dr. Summerskill: That is another question, and perhaps the right hon. and gallant Member will put it down.

  ROADS

    Roadmen, Surrey (Dismissals)
    Captain Marsdenasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that many of the road maintenance men to be dismissed by the Surrey County Council Highways Committee will find it difficult to obtain other employment, having regard to their age and what action he proposes to take to ensure that these men find suitable alternative employment and that their superannuation rights are safeguarded.
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): My request to the Surrey County Council was to release 107 men: the number actually released by April was 136. Superannuation rights are safeguarded by a direction by the Minister of Health extending the "disqualifying break of service" from one to five years.
    Captain Marsden: If these men are having superannuation, is there any point whatever in discharging them from the work they are now doing?
    Mr. Barnes: I thought that the matter had been made quite clear to the House. It is part of the economies in view of the necessity to cut capital investments

    Hire Purchase Cars (Registration)
    Mr. Asterley Jonesasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the observations of Lord Justice Scott in the Court of Appeal on 1st July, he will reconsider his decision not to permit the entry in the registration book of a motor vehicle the interest of the owner when the vehicle is subject to a hire-purchase agreement.
    Mr. Barnes: I cannot say until I have seen a full report of the case, but this will be studied as soon as it is available.
    Mr. Jones: Will my right hon. Friend receive evidence from hon. Members about the cases of hardship which the present state of the law has caused?
    Mr. Barnes: Certainly, any evidence that will facilitate a study of this matter will be welcomed. It is being, and has been, very carefully studied.
    Mr. Lipson: When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make a statement?
    Mr. Barnes: It should not take long to study this report. Perhaps hon. Members will put Questions down in anticipation.

    Selby Toll Bridge
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Transport whether he has any statement to make with regard to the freeing of Selby Toll Bridge and the construction of a new bridge.
    Mr. Barnes: Work on detailed plans for a new bridge is to go forward, and negotiations for the purchase of the old bridge and the toll rights will coincide with the construction of the new bridge.
    Colonel Ropner: Will the right hon. Gentleman remind the House that he and his Department have spent their time putting forward a series of reasons why a conclusion should not be reached in order to rid Selby of this toll bridge? Each of those reasons has been invalidated in turn. Will the right hon. Gentleman now find a reason why something should at last be done?
    Mr. Barnes: I cannot enter into a Debate now on this rather difficult question.

    Toll Bridges and Roads
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Minister of Transport how many toll bridges and roads are now operated under national ownership.
    Mr. Barnes: Ten toll bridges and possibly four toll roads, according to my present information.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is not the right hon. Gentleman ashamed of himself for having 10 toll bridges under his control? When does he intend to free the people from this system?
    Mr. Barnes: No, I am not ashamed of my conduct in this respect; indeed, I think I have done a valuable service in bringing about the Transport Commission, who own this property. Their ownership ought to facilitate dealing with this problem.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is the right hon. Gentleman telling the House that he will continue to operate toll bridges and roads indefinitely under the Commission?
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Transport how many toll bridges and

    827
    roads are now being operated by local authorities; and when it is expected that this system will be brought to an end.
    Mr. Barnes: Five roads and eight bridges, according to my present information. The abolition of the tolls is a matter for the local authorities concerned, but I have left them in no doubt that I am anxious to get rid of these tolls.
    Mr. Shepherd: How can the right hon. Gentleman speak to local authorities as he does when he constitutes no example himself? How can he expect results?
    Mr. Barnes: I am offering them a grant to co-operate with me in getting rid of these tolls.
    Mr. Shepherd: I wish the right hon. Gentleman would offer himself a grant.
    Sir F. Sanderson: Does not the right hon. Gentleman regard this whole business as a relic of early Victorian days? Will he see that the tolls are freed at the earliest possible moment?
    Mr. Barnes: Yes, Sir, and I am delighted to find that Members opposite now realise that it was only with the advent of the Labour Government that an attempt was made to deal satisfactorily with this problem.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend do something to encourage the newly-found enthusiasm of the Conservative Party for national and municipal ownership?

    Road Maintenance
    Mr. Sutcliffeasked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the increasing wear and tear of motor vehicles, owing to deterioration in road surfaces, he will state to what extent road maintenance grants and staffs have been reduced in the County of Lancaster.
    Mr. Barnes: Expenditure on the maintenance of trunk and classified roads in Lancashire is expected to amount to £1,133,000 this year as against £1,147,000 last year. The County Council road staff has been reduced by 187 as compared with the number employed in August, 1947. The corresponding reductions by the county districts amount to 843.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Lancashire County Council recently expressed some alarm at the position, and were especially concerned about main roads in industrial areas, where there is a great deal of heavy traffic? So that he may see for himself, may I take him for a ride the next time he comes North?
    Mr. Barnes: I recently motored through parts of Lancashire, which has done very well compared with the rest of the country.

    School, Cardiff (Crossing)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. GEORGE THOMAS:
    32. To ask the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the danger to the large number of children from the Hywel Ddu junior school, Cardiff, in crossing the main Cowbridge Road, Ely, Cardiff, going to and from school; whether he will cause the speed restrictions sign to be moved a further half mile outwards from the city; and whether he is satisfied that sufficient indication is given to motorists of the danger in this area.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: On a point of Order. For the sake of accuracy, Mr. Speaker, should not "Hywel Ddu," in Question No. 32, be "Hywel Dda," meaning "Hywel the Good" and not "Hywel the Black"?
    Mr. Speaker: That Question has not yet been asked.

  SHIPPING SUBSIDIES
  Mr. H. Hyndasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that some of the shipping companies now receiving subsidies from public funds are paying dividends of 15 per cent.; and whether he will take steps to bring the subsidies to an end.
  Mr. Barnes: The subsidy is for the purpose of keeping in operation certain coastwise liner services and is based on the cost of providing them. The amount of and necessity for a subsidy are kept under review. The provision of services qualifying for the subsidy is only a small fraction of the business activities of the companies to which my hon. Friend refers.
  Mr. Hynd: Is there any necessity for the taxpayer to subsidise a firm which is paying a dividend of 15 per cent. plus 3 per cent. tax free capital bonus? It is scandalous.
  Mr. Barnes: My hon. Friend has merely quoted the dividend distribution of the firm. In dealing with coastwise traffic we cannot differentiate according to the prosperity or range of activity of different companies. We have to consider the services for which the subsidy is granted.
  Mr. Gallacher: Can we take it that in issuing subsidies to these companies there is no means test of any kind? Do they get the subsidy whether they are prosperous or not?
  Mr. Barnes: They get the subsidy on the basis of performance.

  ELECTRIFIED RAILWAYS (FENCING)
  Colonel Clarkeasked the Minister of Transport how many children have been electrocuted on the railways in Kent, Surrey and Sussex during the last five years.
  Mr. Barnes: 13, 6, 18, 7 and 5, respectively, for the years 1943 to 1947. No fatalities to children have been reported during the first half of 1948.
  Colonel Clarke: Does not the right hon. Gentleman find these figures rather disturbing? Is it possible to put up some sort of fencing along these electrified tracks through which children cannot creep, and thus prevent them from getting on to the track?
  Mr. Barnes: The figures are very disturbing, but I am gratified to notice that there is a steady decline. The problem of fencing miles of electrified track is very difficult. It is also very difficult to prevent youngsters from climbing the fences.
  Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Is compensation payable in these cases and, if so, by whom?
  Mr. Barnes: I could not say without notice.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Royal Ordnance Factories (Steel)
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Minister of Supply what are the present stocks of steel held by the Royal Ordnance Factories; and how many months' usage this represents.
    The Minister of Supply (Mr. G. R. Strauss): The Royal Ordnance Factories hold a war reserve, mainly of special steels acquired during the war, but it would not be in the public interest to disclose the amount. No reserve is held for current production.
    Mr. Shepherd: Do I understand that there is no favoured treatment for Ordnance factories in the allocation of steel, and that they hold no supplies in excess of their day to day requirements?
    Mr. Strauss: Yes, Sir.

    Tudor II Aircraft
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Minister of Supply whether a decision has yet been reached in regard to the future use of Tudor II aircraft.
    Mr. G. R. Strauss: No, Sir.
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: In view of the public concern about this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman speed up the decision?
    Mr. Strauss: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the proposals which the Press now tell us are being made by the Minister of Civil Aviation will deal a staggering blow to the British aircraft industry, will smash a factory which made a major contribution to our war industry, and will completely frustrate the appeals for extra work in Lancashire to meet the export gap? Why is it proposed to spend money unnecessarily abroad on purchasing goods that can be made in this country, and made here better than anywhere else?
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make an announcement?
    Mr. Strauss: A decision will be announced before the end of the month.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Prisoner of War Camp, Royston
    Mr. Asterley Jonesasked the Minister of Works why the doors of the huts at Royston P.O.W. Camp, Hertfordshire, have been removed; and whether he will make a statement on the future of this camp.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Key): Doors and windows were removed temporarily to discourage squatters. As stated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health on 8th July, the habitable part of the camp has now been offered to the Royston Urban District Council for housing purposes.
    Mr. Jones: Can my right hon. Friend say how long it was before the camp was vacated by the prisoners of war? Was the local authority informed that it would be vacated?
    Mr. Key: I have not that information.

    Club Premises, Thames Ditton (Release)
    Mr. W. R. Williamsasked the Minister of Works whether he proposes to release at an early date the Club House and part of the sports ground at Weston Green, Thames Ditton, belonging to the Joint Electricity Authority Sports and Social Association, which were requisitioned in 1940.
    Mr. Key: I hope to do so shortly.
    Mr. Keeling: Is the Minister aware that the 1,425 members of this Association feel bitter and resentful at the fact that three years after the end of the war they are still unable to use their club house and part of their ground?
    Mr. Key: I understand that, and I am trying to expedite the release of these premises as soon as I possibly can—I hope by the end of this month.

    Requisitioned Property
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Works (1) how many hotels, large houses and flats, respectively, in the United Kingdom are at present requisitioned by the Government for any other use than dwelling accommodation; and how many of each category have been
    832
    released for use as dwelling accommodation since 30th June, 1947;
    (2) how many hotels, large houses, small houses and flats, respectively, in the London civil defence region, are at present requisitioned by the Government for other use than dwelling accommodation; and how many of each category have been released for use since 30th June, 1947.
    Mr. Key: The returns of these holdings and releases up to 30th June, 1948, will be available in about a fortnight's time, when I will send the information to the hon. Member.

  UNITED NATIONS (REGIONAL COLLECTIVE SECURITY)
  Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what further progress has been made in the organisation of regional collective security under Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, in view of the recent pronouncement by Mr. St. Laurent, Canadian Secretary of State, advocating a North Atlantic Pact between America and Western Europe, and by the Governor-General of New Zealand, on 23rd June, in the Speech from the Throne, advocating a closer defensive union between New Zealand, Britain and Europe.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) on 5th July. We were, of course, very interested to see those parts of the speech from the Throne by the Governor-General of New Zealand and of the remarks made by Mr. St. Laurent to which my hon. Friend refers. As he is doubtless aware, conversations are now going on in Washington between the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Canada and the Benelux countries. These conversations are at present at an informal and exploratory stage.
  Mr. Reid: Will my hon. Friend press forward with this matter, because it is the chief means of preserving the peace of the world?
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Warbey: In view of the fact that old-fashioned military alliances are not made respectable by relating them to the Articles of the United Nations Charter, will the Foreign Office keep this country out of entanglements, which make our strategic and foreign policy dependent upon the whims of Washington?
  Mr. Mayhew: That certainly does not arise out of this Question.

  AGRICULTURE

    Output (Value Charges)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will publish a statement showing changes in the value of the agricultural output in England and Wales

    VALUE OF AGRICULTURAL OUTPUT OF ENGLAND AND WALES

    (at prices current in each period).

    —

    1936–37–1938–39 Average.

    1943–44.

    1946–47.

    £ million.

    Per cent.

    £ million.

    Per cent.

    £ million.

    Per cent.

    Crops

    …

    69·8

    30·0

    252·0

    52·8

    234·4

    45·7

    Livestock

    …

    162·7

    70·0

    225·5

    47·2

    278·2

    54·3

    Total Output

    232·5

    100·0

    477·5

    100·0

    512·6

    100·0

    Reading Cattle Breeding Centre (Stockmen)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture why stockmen employed by his Department at the Reading Cattle Breeding Centre are asked to sign a document agreeing that they will not be entitled to any payment during periods of sick leave, whereas it is the accepted custom in the agricultural industry for some payment to be made in these circumstances.
    Mr. T. Williams: Stockmen at the Reading Cattle Breeding Centre are regarded as employees in a Government industrial establishment. In common with workers generally in such establishments, they have not hitherto been entitled to paid sick leave, but this matter is at present under consideration.
    Mr. Hurd: Will the Minister look in kindly fashion at a particular case of hardship, which has arisen where the terms of employment under the Government have been less favourable than those under a private firm?
    since the pre-war years in the same form as the statement recently published by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland.
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): Yes, Sir. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the figures for England and Wales corresponding to lines, eight, 16 and 17 of the Scottish statement to which the hon. Member refers.
    Mr. Hurd: Will this statement show a comparison of the present time and 1947 with pre-war years and also with the intervening years?
    Mr. Williams: I am hoping to publish more figures later on.
    The following are the figures:
    Mr. Williams: The hon. Member wrote a letter to me on the subject and the reply is almost on the way.

    Fowl Pest (Losses)
    Sir John Barlowasked the Minister of Agriculture the total losses in numbers and value due to fowl pest during the last convenient 12 months.
    Mr. T. Williams: About 180,000 birds were slaughtered owing to fowl pest during the 12 months ended 30th June under the instructions of my Department. I have no record, of course, of the birds that died from the disease before my Department became aware of outbreaks, but the number is probably of the order of 20,000. The value of the birds that have died and been slaughtered is estimated at about £210,000.
    Sir J. Barlow: Will the Minister say whether more recent outbreaks are diminishing?
    Mr. Williams: The number of outbreaks in April, May and June, was 12, 20 and 25, respectively.
    Mr. Bowles: Are the Minister and his advisers quite satisfied that killing is the only way of stopping this pest, and will he examine with an open mind any proposals for some kind of cure rather than slaughter?
    Mr. Williams: The action taken was the best upon the expert advice available to me, but should there be any proposal of an alternative means of dealing with the problem I shall be very happy to look at it.
    Mr. Tolley: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the steps so far taken by his Department are effective in stamping out this disease?
    Mr. Williams: I am certain that the various orders which we have issued have been extremely useful in reducing the number of fowl pest outbreaks.

    Royal Show, York (Advisory Service Exhibit)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture how many members of the National Agricultural Advisory Service attended the Royal Agricultural Society's Show at York last week; how many cars were used; and how much petrol was allocated for these journeys.
    Mr. T. Williams: In the four days during which the Royal Show was held, 175 officers of the National Agricultural Advisory Service attended on duty on one or more days mostly to act as guides or demonstrators in connection with the many-aided advisory exhibition staged by my Department. Nearly all these officers were from the Yorkshire and Lancashire Province, or from neighbouring provinces. In addition, in view of the importance of this show and of its national character, 160 other officers were granted official time off to attend. On the average, 35 cars from the Yorkshire and Lancashire Province were used daily to convey officers on duty and also necessary items of equipment, the petrol consumption being about 275 gallons. Apart from this, 16 cars and log gallons of petrol were used by officers from other provinces. In my view the attendance of these Agricultural Advisory officers was fully justified.
    Mr. Hurd: While we all share the hope that good service will come from the N.A.A.S., may I ask why should not the members of this Service travel by train as the rest of us have to do?
    Mr. Williams: Because—and no one in the House knows better than the hon. Gentleman—many of these officers come from country districts. They arrive very early, long before the general public, and they leave late, mostly after the general public have left the show. For them public transport is not a practical proposition.
    Mr. Collins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the show put up by the members of the N.A.A.S. service was one of the outstanding features of a very successful show?
    Mr. Williams: I believe it was recognised that the exhibit of the Ministry of Agriculture Advisory Service was undoubtedly the best in the showground.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Will the Minister say why it was found necessary for a representative of this Service to travel by car the whole way from the extreme South-West of England to the Royal Show instead of using the admirable public transport services existing in order to make the journey? He did not need his car to get home at night.
    Mr. Williams: If the hon. Gentleman will give me the case which I think he has in mind, I can supply him with a very satisfactory answer.

    Harvest Labour, West Riding
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is satisfied that sufficient labour will be available in the West Riding of Yorkshire to harvest this year's cereal crops and potatoes.
    Mr. T. Williams: Ways and means of meeting harvest needs in the West Riding, as elsewhere, are being thoroughly examined by local representatives of farmers, farm workers and the Departments concerned, and I hope that as a result of these joint efforts the supply of labour will be adequate.
    Colonel Ropner: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that he will take the necessary steps to see that

    837
    the labour situation is all right in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and, in particular, will he pay special attention to the lifting of the potato crop?
    Mr. Williams: We have taken all the precautions that can possibly be taken by calling all the responsible bodies together to ascertain what the size of the problem is, after which we try to provide the appropriate number of men to each job. With regard to potato lifting, we are going further into that matter.

    Pedigree Cattle (Exports)
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Minister of Agriculture how many pedigree cattle have been sold to other countries in the last six months; and to which countries have they actually been sent.
    Mr. T. Williams: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that what has happened in this matter will not unduly deplete our herds of pedigree cattle in this country?
    Mr. Williams: I do not think we have any need to be apprehensive, since we still have a very large number of high quality pedigree cattle. We can well afford to export them as well as keep them at home.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will the figures which the right hon. Gentleman will give us be the United Kingdom figures or those for England and Wales only?
    Mr. Williams: United Kingdom.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Why?
    The following is the reply:
    I have not this information in the exact form asked for by my hon. Friend, but the statements below give the number of pedigree cattle for which health certificates were issued by my Department during the last six months, and the numbers of cattle for which the issue of export licences was approved. All countries do not require a health certificate and as export licences do not have to be used immediately they are issued, the second
    838
    statement is not an exact record of the numbers of animals actually exported within the period specified. The figures for export licences do not distinguish between pedigree and non-pedigree animals, but the number of non-pedigree cattle exported is negligible.

    Pedigree cattle for which health certificates were issued January-June, 1948

    Destination

    Numbers

    Argentina

    185

    Australia

    29

    Brazil

    6

    Canada

    223

    Denmark

    3

    Egypt

    7

    Eire

    151

    France

    3

    Jamaica

    2

    Kenya

    98

    Madeira

    1

    South Africa

    91

    South West Africa

    8

    Southern Rhodesia (via S. Africa)

    10

    Uruguay

    24

    United States of America (via Canada)

    5

    Total

    846

    Young Horses (Slaughter)
    Mr. Sutcliffeasked the Minister of Agriculture if, in view of the indiscriminate slaughter of young horses, which is leading to a shortage for farm work, he will consider prohibiting the slaughter, except in cases of accident or sickness,

    839
    of all working horses imported into England and Wales for a period of six months from date of arrival.
    Mr. T. Williams: No, Sir. I am not aware of any appreciable shortage of horses for farm work, nor would the scheme suggested be easy to enforce or be likely to produce significant results.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that competition by slaughterers at auction sales for every available horse, many of which are in first-class condition, has raised the price to such an extent that small farmers in my constituency are unable to buy them for hay making, a purpose for which they are vitally necessary, and will he not do something to regulate this traffic?
    Mr. Williams: I can assure the hon. Member that we are in close touch with the National Farmers Union and if they find that there is a tendency to reduce the number of horses below the requirements of agriculture, I am sure they will be the first to make representations.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: May we assume from those two answers that the Government have no intention of giving any support to the filthy traffic in worn out horses?
    Mr. Williams: The hon. and gallant Gentleman can make no such assumption.
    Sir T. Moore: Oh!
    Mr. Chamberlain: May we assume from this that horses are actually imported into this country for slaughter?
    Mr. Williams: I believe that a few horses have been imported for slaughter, but where the carcase meat goes, whether for human consumption or for animals, I am unable to say. What I am sure about is that if the suggestion which has been made were applied and horses were not sent here, but were sent somewhere else they would be slaughtered anyhow.
    Mr. Chamberlain: This is a horrible suggestion, and will the right hon. Gentleman look into it a little further and let the House know some details of this traffic?

    German Workers (Leave)
    Mrs. Leah Manningasked the Minister of Agriculture what arrangements are made for civilianised German prisoners
    840
    of war to have holidays or compassionate leave, to visit relatives in Germany.
    Mr. T. Williams: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to a Question on 12th April.
    Mrs. Manning: In view of the fact that the prisoner of war about whose circumstances I have written to my right hon. Friend has been in this country for seven years, and of the further fact that his father is now dying in Germany, may I ask whether there is any way in which my right hon. Friend can get leave for this man?
    Mr. Williams: Any individual cases that may be brought to our notice could of course be dealt with separately, if there are special circumstances. With regard to compassionate leave, I doubt whether that would be possible during the course of this year.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: Are civilianised persons what used to be called civilians?
    Mr. Driberg: In view of my right hon. Friend's last supplementary reply, will he say whether this matter will be reconsidered if it is decided that these men are to stay on here after the end of this year?
    Mr. Williams: Perhaps the hon. Lady who put the original Question will have a word with me later.

  GERMANY

    Air Transport Service, Berlin
    Mr. Collinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether arrangements can be made to use the present air transport service to evacuate sick and elderly persons from Berlin.
    Mr. Mayhew: This has not yet been contemplated. The question, however, will be kept under review in conjunction with the problem of moving Germans normally resident in the Western zones and now stranded in Berlin.

    Capital Equipment (Reparations)
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he has given to the request of the

    841
    U.S. Secretary of State that, in accordance with Section 115 (f) of the Foreign Assistance Act, 1948, His Majesty's Government should agree to the retention in Germany of capital equipment scheduled for removal as reparations from the Western zones of Germany.
    Mr. Mayhew: No request has been received from the United States Secretary of State regarding the retention in Germany of any specific capital equipment scheduled for removal as part of the British reparations programme. If such a request is received, my right hon. Friend would naturally be prepared to consider it on its merits.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Are we to understand that that equipment is being moved at the present moment?
    Mr. Mayhew: We have restarted the reparations programme.

  MILITARY COMMITMENTS (DISCUSSION)
  Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give an undertaking that no further military commitments will be entered into until this House has had an opportunity of discussing such proposals.
  Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. Formal commitments, whether military or otherwise, entered into by His Majesty's Government are normally laid before Parliament to provide an opportunity for the House to discuss them. I cannot, however, bind my right hon. Friend to such an undertaking, which is not required by any established constitutional practice.
  Mr. Platts-Mills: If the practice up till now has been to enter into military commitments and only then to tell the nation, is it not time that the Foreign Secretary changed that practice in view of the threatening situation to which he has brought us?

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE REGULATIONS (PUBLICATION)
  Sir John Mellorasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury when copies of the National Health Service (Appointment
  842
  of Specialists) Regulations, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No. 1416), which came into operation on 29th June, were available in the Vote Office and in the Stationery Office, respectively.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): Copies were in the Vote Office on 1st July and on sale at the Stationery Office on 2nd July.
  Sir J. Mellor: Ought not these regulations to be published before and not after they come into force?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not think there is any delay. The hon. Baronet has to remember that the Stationery Office is very busy. The Stationery Office received a copy of this instrument in the late afternoon of, I think, 28th June. The operative date for publication was 1st July, and it was published then.
  Sir J. Mellor: Will the Financial Secretay agree that these regulations were the law of the land before anybody could find out about them?
  Mr. Langford-Holt: Will the Financial Secretary draw the attention of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to the undesirability of sending these orders to the Stationery Office at such a short period before they come into force?
  Mr. Renton: Would it not be better to postpone the coming into operation of these orders for a few days so as to give time for them to be printed before they are due to come into force?
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: What would happen to a man who broke these regulations on 30th June and was unable to read them until two days afterwards?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I am not the Attorney-General, and that question should be directed to one of the Law Officers; but I assume that if a man broke the law he would be guilty of having broken the law.
  Mr. Wilson Harris: I know that the right hon. Gentleman is not responsible in this case, but does he not think it is intolerable that these documents should not be published until after they come into force?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Normally we try to publish them in good time. In this case the regulations were pretty well known.

  843
  It was simply a question of putting the thing into regular order so that people who require to have the regulations by them for future use should be able to get them.
  Captain Crookshank: So if an order came into operation two days before it was published, the Financial Secretary would not consider there had been any delay. Would he tell us what, in his view, is delay?
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  Mr. H. Strauss: By whom were these regulations pretty well known before they were printed?
  Mr. Charles Williams: Would the Financial Secretary inform the House what he means by "pretty well known"? By what proportion of the population does he assume that orders issued which came into force some days before could be pretty well known, say in Wales or Scotland, or in the East End of London?

  AIR NAVIGATION ORDER
  Sir J. Mellorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how many orders are in force amending the Air Navigation (Consolidation) Order, 1923; and why these instruments have not been consolidated by S.I., 1948, No. 1328, which makes further amendments.
  Mr. Simmonds (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the Question is "Thirty-six." But, as stated in S.I., 1948, No. 1328, the Air Navigation (Consolidation) Order 1923 was reprinted in 1946 together with all amendments to 19th February of that year. Since this reprint, only one amending order, S.R. & O. 1947, No. 193 was issued prior to S.I., 1948, No. 1328. A consolidated set of regulations to replace the 1923 regulations and all subsequent amendments is in course of preparation.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: Have they come into force?

  DOCK STRIKES (PUBLIC ASSISTANCE)
  Sir J. Mellorasked the Minister of Health what total amount was paid in relief to strikers out of public funds or local rates during the recent unofficial strikes at the docks; and whether relief in kind was also provided.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. John Edwards): Relief under the Poor Law could not legally be paid to the strikers themselves. £939 14s. 6d. was paid to strikers' families from local rates in addition to relief in kind to the value of £82 2s. No other public funds were involved.

BILL PRESENTED
  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL
  "to amend the law with respect to customs in the Isle of Man," presented by Mr. Glenvil Hall, to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 127.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock."—[Mr. Whiteley.]
Mr. Oliver Stanley: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the purpose of this Motion?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): It is only in case - the Business in Committee of Supply should end before 10 o'clock so that the House can take another Order which is on the Paper.
Mr. Stanley: Only one Order?
Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir. It is a Prayer by a noble Friend of the right hon. Gentleman.
Question put and agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [21ST ALLOTTED DAY]
  SUPPLY
    CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1948–49

      CLASS X—MINISTRY OF FOOD
      Considered in Committee.
      [Major MILNER in the Chair]
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      "That a sum, not exceeding £180,041,013, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1949, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Food; the cost of trading services, including certain subsidies; and sundry other services."—[Note:£140,000,000 has been voted on account.]

  FOOD SUPPLIES
  3.20 p.m.
  Mr. J. S. C. Reid: A year ago there were still some people who thought it possible to argue that ours was a well-fed nation and that there was no need to worry about the future of our food supplies. Since the publication of the Economic Survey for 1948 that argument is no longer open to anyone. At page 52 of that document the Committee will see set out the precise respects in which there has been a fall in the consumption of a number of commodities, and they will also see stated that,
  "it would be wholly misleading to infer that the 'real' standard of life has remained, and will remain, the same."
  Then the matter is summed up in the figures, which show that the food available during the year has diminished by 200 calories per head per day on the average. Now, I do not myself attach primary importance to that figure: it would be of primary importance only if there were equality of sharing of the food which is available; but, as the Committee is well aware, that is not the case. And I do not say that it should be the case, for there are a great many who, quite properly, get more than the average: there are canteens, school meals, extra rations, and many other things of that kind, and as a result a great many get less.
  One matter which I put to the right hon. Gentleman is that the time has come
  846
  when he should re-examine his method of deciding who is to get extra allocations of food. A number of applications have been referred to in the House during the year; they have been refused, never because the applicants did not need the extra food, but always because of some administrative reason. Latterly at least the right hon. Gentleman has adopted the expedient of remitting to the T.U.C. to decide who shall have extra food.
  The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): No, no.
  Mr. Reid: The right hon. Gentleman says, "No, no." If he looks at the OFFICIAL REPORT of 21St January of this year, he will see that the Parliamentary Secretary said, with regard to applications by employers for extra food for their workers:
  "We do not discourage anybody, but, applications having been made, we allow the Advisory Committee of the T.U.C. to decide the matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st January, 1948; Vol. 446, c. 205.]
  Therefore, it is no good the right hon. Gentleman saying "No, no" unless he wishes to argue with his colleague on the matter, because that was her view. There were many other cases: nurses, agricultural workers—who are constantly coming up—and many others, and we were always told, "This goes to the T.U.C. They give the advice, and we won't act without it."
  Mr. Strachey: That is an entirely different thing.
  Mr. Reid: If the right hon. Gentleman never acts against their advice in either direction—and we have never heard of a case where he did—then plainly the Parliamentary Secretary was right when she said, and she did in the House, "We leave it to the T.U.C. to decide."
  Mr. Strachey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has now placed the matter properly. His two statements contradict each other, but the second one is correct: we never act without the advice of the T.U.C., but we are not bound to accept that advice. That is the position.
  Mr. Reid: The right hon. Gentleman never has, in fact, disregarded it, as far as I know—perhaps he will tell us. Therefore, I think the Parliamentary Secretary was accurate in using the word "decide." But they can have that out between themselves.
  Captain Crookshank: They are not sitting anywhere near each other as it is.
  Mr. Reid: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would be good enough, in the course of his speech, to tell us what he regards as the prospects for this country in the future. We have heard from many quarters that the world food shortage, which has always existed, is likely to get worse. On the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman has on several occasions approached the matter from a different point of view. For example, last Autumn, on 19th October, he is reported to have said:
  "The world will sooner or later—sooner rather than later in terms of years—have vast quantities of food and raw materials to sell us again."
  In the Spring, on, I think, 17th March, he said that he disagreed completely with the view
  "that the people of Britain would never again enjoy the plentiful standards of prewar years. Not even the most hasty conclusion suggests that in our lifetime we won't be able to regain the 1939 level and surpass it. I think it is quite possible that we may be able to do so in a relatively short time."
  Now, which of these is right? I think it may well be that there is a large measure of truth in both, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us.
  I say that because, looking to the great growth that there has been in the populations of the East, which more than keeps pace with the rise in food supplies, I can see great difficulties in bringing any world food shortage to an end. On the other hand, it does seem that the time is approaching—indeed, if it has not in some places arrived—when there are surpluses in certain commodities in the sense that producers cannot sell their products at remunerative prices, or even at cost prices; and our trouble will be, as far as I can see, that for the first time since this country became a food importing nation, we have to see these surpluses go elsewhere because we cannot afford to participate in them.
  I do not wish to pursue the long-term prospects very far, because I doubt if anybody can express a very detailed view about them. I should like to come to the short-term prospects. What are we likely to see in the coming year or years? Does the right hon. Gentleman still say, as he said in this Debate a year ago:
  848
  "There is no need whatever for the housewives or people of this country to feel that they will find it difficult or impossible, as is sometimes suggested, to obtain partly from at home and partly abroad the food which they need.… I am perfectly sure that this country need have no doubt whatever of its ability to obtain an ample food supply in the coming years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st July, 1947; Vol. 439, c. 1183–4.]
  Is that still the right hon. Gentleman's view? He did say, I think on New Year's Day, that we had then embarked on the critical six months when cuts in imports would be felt to the utmost. If that prognostication were right, it would mean that we should now be on the upward grade again. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether that is so or not.
  Anyone who does not have access to information in the hands of the Government finds it extremely difficult to make any accurate assessment of the position, or, indeed, to offer any broad constructive criticisms, because the right hon. Gentleman withholds so much information. Of course, he has some arguments. He says—as he said two years ago, for example—that to reveal food stocks would cost the country millions of pounds. But I do ask him to look at the other side of the argument. I would say that all experience shows that there are only two ways of maintaining the efficiency of any organisation for any considerable period: one is competition; the other is publicity. If the right hon. Gentleman prevents competition and refuses publicity, what will happen is that rigidity, inefficiency and indecision will begin to creep in. I am afraid that will happen to some extent but it will be much worse unless the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to tell, us more than he does at present.
  He is the head of perhaps the greatest trading concern in the world with a turnover exceeding £1,400 million per annum, and what do we get in the way of publicity? We get the Estimates. Many pages deal with the wages of the people in his office, but all that we get about the trading services could go on half a sheet of notepaper, and that is not really informative. We get the estimated total purchases and sales for the year, but then we do not know how much of that is for resale abroad. We welcomed the belated publication during the year of trading accounts, but again they do not tell us

  849
  much about the present, and nothing about the future. Although more than a year out of date, they did indicate this, to me, rather unexpected feature, that one-fifth of the whole of the Minister's dealings is for resale abroad, and when one comes to certain commodities, such as cereals, no less than one-half of his total dealings is for resale abroad. That may be all right, and I hope the Minister will tell us whether that proportion is being maintained, but it makes it quite impossible for us to make any inference from total figures as to what is to be the effect on the food supply of this country.
  Then, thirdly, he has Press conferences where he makes highly selective disclosures and they, of course, cannot be fully reported in the curtailed Press of today. Therefore, some considerable time ago I asked the Minister to make available to hon. Members of this House what takes place at these Press conferences—I think there is a written note—but he refused to let hon. Members know what takes place at these conferences between himself and the Press, and I do not see why hon. Members of this House should be put on a lower plane than members of the Press who attend his Press conferences. I hope he will indicate today that he will reconsider that matter.
  Then we used to have a number of White Papers on the food situation. There have not been many lately. It may be there is no need for them, but we did get quite a lot of useful information from them, and the only other source of information is from questions in this House. That depends on being able to get some prior knowledge from somewhere on which to build a question, and those questions are often met by the answer that it would not be in the public interest to give a reply. I ask the right hon. Gentleman how is it that it is all right to disclose, as the Government do disclose, stocks of many other things—metal, wood, cotton, chemicals, and so on—but never any food stocks. I know the argument that hiding these matters and prices keeps the foreign seller in ignorance so that he cannot drive so hard a bargain. Looking at some of the bargains, I rather doubt if he has been kept in ignorance. And, of course, as the right hon. Gentleman has so much encouraged bulk selling abroad, it is not difficult for a Government abroad with a trade representative here to discover quite
  850
  enough to avoid being at a disadvantage in bargaining.
  I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to adopt any hard and fast rule in this matter, but what I object to is his having adopted a hard and fast rule for concealment, and I ask him whether he will reexamine this matter because, if he wishes to take advantage of well-informed public opinion and reasoned criticism in this House, in the Press, and elsewhere, he must afford the material on which that opinion and that criticism can be based. Some things, of course, do come to light, very often because somebody outside these islands has mentioned them. Let me remind the Committee of one—the potato muddle. I remind the Committee of that because the failure of the right hon. Gentleman to make a full statement on that matter, which I asked him to do some time ago, has resulted in a great deal of adverse criticism both here and abroad. If he has a good story to tell, surely it would be a good thing to tell it fully and avoid all that criticism. But what happened?
  In a Press conference—I hope this is accurate because I have only a Press cutting—on 23rd March, the right hon. Gentleman was proud of the fact that he had just signed at least two new contracts for the delivery of potatoes for the coming six weeks or two months; one, 100,000 tons from Holland, and another 15,000 tons from Denmark, and I think there were others. That was at the end of March. A few weeks later, in April, potato rationing came off suddenly and a great deal of these potatoes which had been obtained at such great trouble became surplus and had to be disposed of at great loss. Now why did that happen? Was it just a mistake in the Ministry? One would forgive mistakes in an enormous trading concern of this kind, but do let us know about them. To tell us of a few mistakes and let us feel that we are being told everything raises far less suspicion and criticism than to feel that they are all hidden or, at least, glossed over, and we really do not know how much more is being lost in a way of which we have never heard.
  Or is it that the Department is relying too much on statistics? That may well be so. I think a good many Departments of this Government are much too keen about statistics and much too

  851
  ignorant or much too inclined to discount practical knowledge. Let us know what is the position. More important than actual losses owing to mismanagement are lost opportunities because, in the present state of our food supply, it is obvious that we want to take advantage of every opportunity, and, indeed, to create them. I get the impression that some of the divisions of the right hon. Gentleman's Department are too inclined to wait to be offered things and too little inclined to go out and look for them. I am somewhat confirmed in that view by the way in which this is put in a pamphlet, issued no doubt with the right hon. Gentleman's approval, by the Central Office of Information called "Britain's Food." They say:
  "The Government is making every effort to increase the rations of this country by finding sources of supply outside the dollar area, and with this end in view is approaching all potential suppliers."
  "Is approaching"—two years after the crisis became obvious. I should have thought that all potential suppliers ought to have been approached long ago. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman never moves without being asked. I think we all welcome the fact that, for example, he initiated the groundnuts scheme in East Africa. Many of us have criticisms to offer about the way in which that scheme has been handled, and may I say that there again a full statement admitting the mistakes which are bound to occur in the initial stages, and admitting them even if they are big mistakes, would go a long way to restore confidence in the matter. In other respects, the right hon. Gentleman is let down by his colleagues. For example, there is the astonishing story of the way it has taken four years or more to get a few engines to move the groundnuts in West Africa. I am sure we sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman there, but I should have thought somebody ought to have stirred up the laggards long before this.
  A number of projects are not as far forward as perhaps they might be. I mention just one, because of its size. It has recently come to light that the right hon. Gentleman is considering utilising rubber seeds, of which I am told hundreds of thousands of tons go to waste every year. They have a high oil content of over 40 per cent. If it is practicable to collect and process them, there is
  852
  obviously a very large supply indeed of vegetable oils. It may prove that that oil is more appropriate for technical than for edible purposes, but that would not matter much because it would release more oil for edible requirements. It may even turn out that the whole scheme is impracticable, but, surely, it is very late in the day to start now to investigate this matter for the first time. I should have thought the necessary information could have been obtained and that, if it had been right, production could have been got going before now.
  Against the right hon. Gentleman's Department I make the general accusation that they are astonishingly slow off the mark. Some of the difficulties may not be of his own making. Probably he has a good deal of difficulty with the Treasury but, after all, he is responsible and it is up to him to see that his colleagues are brought to realise the importance and seriousness of the situation. But there is a good deal which to a large extent he could cure himself. He does not delegate to traders in trade associations nearly enough of the practical jobs of allocation and procurement of foodstuffs. I hope he will be able to tell us that he is in process of reexamining the whole matter or that he soon will be. A great deal could be done in this way to avoid missing opportunities and to speed things up.
  I do not want today to involve myself in any ideological arguments with the right hon. Gentleman. I should win the arguments but the right hon. Gentleman would not budge. My purpose is rather to try to put to the right hon. Gentleman things which he can accept without compromising his Socialist principles. I have limited myself, therefore, to proposals of that nature and I say that, without any compromise of his principles, the right hon. Gentleman could go a very long way in delegating to practical traders and associations matters which are now retained inside his own Department.
  There are two other examples of refusal to buy obviously desirable commodities which I should like to put before the Committee, not only for their own importance but because they raise important general principles on which we ought to have some light. The first is a refusal to buy white peas from South Africa. The quantity was considerable—I am told

  853
  that it would have supplied about 10 million meals for the people of this country, that the offal would have been valuable and that mills standing idle would have been used. There was no criticism of the price. The whole story was that we could not afford this deal—and this with the sterling area. That was the excuse made recently by the right hon. Gentleman.
  My next example, which is even more surprising, is of the refusal to buy tinned meat in Eire. This came to light following its disclosure by the Prime Minister and Minister of Agriculture of that country. The right hon. Gentleman was offered 10,000 tons of tinned meat. He bought half and let the rest go, I think, to Czechoslovakia. This is what the Prime Minister of Eire said of the deal:
  "It was somewhat strange, therefore, for them to find that they had to sell their canned beef not to their best customer, Britain, but to Czechoslovakia. It was more extraordinary to find that, if they produced canned horse meat, they would find a market in Britain."
  The right hon. Gentleman says that the canned horse project originated not with him but came from some private traders, but he adopted it and apparently submitted it to the Irish Government, unless they are not stating the facts accurately. The whole thing is so absurd that I do not propose to take time elaborating that complaint. For anyone to put forward the suggestion that we are reduced to canned horse meat throws a very lurid light on the whole matter.
  I must refer again to the 5,000 tons of tinned meat. After an evasive written answer, the right hon. Gentleman told us on 23rd June that the issue was one of price—although we pay in unrestricted sterling and have a favourable balance with Eire. The price could not have been far wrong because the right hon. Gentleman bought 5,000 tons, but he would not buy the other half. Does he deny that hundreds of thousands of housewives in this country would far rather buy that 5,000 tons of tinned meat, even at a slightly higher price, than have to spend their money on imported expensive fruits and liqueurs and so on from the Continent of Europe? Of course they would. Why are they not allowed to do so? Why does the right hon. Gentleman say, on their behalf, "The price is higher than you ought to pay and I will not let
  854
  you pay it"? There cannot be any question of foreign exchange. The right hon. Gentleman is simply standing in the way of housewives and saying, "I know you would like this, I know you would be willing to pay the price, but you shall not do it; you shall spend your money on expensive luxuries instead." The right hon. Gentleman must think again about such a policy.
  Let me ask him three questions arising out of that sorry story. First, is the sterling area a multilateral trading area or not? From his answers it appears that we are to be rationed in what we can spend, not only in the Dominions and Colonies where we may have an adverse balance, but also in Dominions where we have a favourable balance. I cannot understand how that can be reconciled with the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the sterling area is a large multilateral trading area. Secondly, we were told when dollar cuts were imposed last Autumn that, so far as possible, they would be made up by stepping up purchases in other areas. Is that, or is it not, still the policy? If it is, I cannot understand how these two and many other offers were refused. Thirdly, the Economic Survey for 1948 tells us, on page 11:
  "The 1948 imports include a somewhat larger volume of feedingstuffs than could be obtained in 1947."
  I will say a word about that later.
  "A large part of the 1948 food imports is made up, moreover, of foods, such as fresh fruit, fresh and canned vegetables and miscellaneous processed foods, of rather low nutritional value which have been purchased in 'softer' markets to give some variety to the diet in the place of the Western Hemisphere foods which it has been necessary to cut."
  Why buy these low nutritional value foods, which, incidentally, are expensive in many cases, and refuse much more valuable foods which are offered from parts of our own Commonwealth? I cannot understand this. In the Commonwealth we pay in sterling and in these other countries in Europe we pay in other currencies although, no doubt, not in dollars. One begins to wonder whether we have been driven to buy these foods of low nutritional value but of high prices because there was nothing else, or because of the ineptitude of the Government in falling for these bargains when better

  855
  bargains were available. All we know on the subject does not give very much confidence on that.
  I pass to bread rationing and ask the right hon. Gentleman whether this sorry business cannot now be decently buried and forgotten. Two years ago, in something of a panic over falling stocks, the Government introduced an ill-thought-out scheme of bread rationing and, after an initial period of embarrassment and inconvenience, people began to find that it was an ill-thought-out and unworkable scheme and they paid less and less attention to it. Any hon. Member of this House who does any shopping—and I am sure most do—knows perfectly well that for a long time now we have noticed that shops where we used to be asked for B.U.s have ceased to ask for them and rather wave one away.
  It has been obvious for a long time that there has been wholesale disregard of this regulation, with the result that any saving there ever was has become quite negligible and there has been no attempt to enforce the regulation. We would have saved a great deal more, taking the two years as a whole—if saving was the object—by coming to some voluntary arrangement with those in the trade. The saving has been very small over the period. But, much worse than that, more and more people during the past 12 months have become accustomed to breaking the law with impunity. The right hon. Gentleman, by maintaining this system long after any usefulness it had had disappeared, has done a very ill service to the rationing system of the country by letting an important part of it disintegrate and run down. I hope that today we shall see the end of that story.
  I hope that as soon as harvest prospects have become reasonably assured the right hon. Gentleman will tell us that he is going to lower the extraction rate for flour. I am told that even 2½ per cent. would make a very appreciable difference in the quality of bread and also in the amount of offals available for our farms. I ask him not to wait until he can make a possible cut of 5 per cent. but if he cannot make it 5 per cent. straight away to do something at the earliest possible moment.
  On the footing that our bread supplies are assured for the coming year, I ask the
  856
  right hon. Gentleman if he can tell us what he is going to do with the new American aid? This time is he going to spend it on things we really need? I am not going back to old criticisms about the fact that he did not do that before, but I hope this time he will do so. I understand he has a free hand in the matter and I trust we shall not hear anything more of expensive luxuries being bought with this money. The bread supply having been assured, I would put first fats, meat and sugar. Fats and meat are perhaps the best and, indeed, they may be the only way of improving our position through the medium of feedingstuffs. May I put in a strong plea for sugar? It is available, has a high value, and would be extremely acceptable to the people of this country. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to make much more available at an early date, both in the form of sugar and in the form of commodities of which sugar is the main constituent.
  I do not propose to say more than a few words about feedingstuffs, not because the problem is unimportant—it is probably the most important problem that confronts the Minister at the moment—but because I hope many of my hon. Friends will have opportunities of putting forward that problem from a number of different angles. The Lord President of the Council last year assured us that large increases of feedingstuffs must come from imports,
  "… and even scarce dollars will be spent on all that is obtainable since this operation must lead to ultimate dollar saving."
  I trust that is the firm policy of the Food Ministry. I am wondering whether it is, because last Autumn the Committee of European Economic Co-operation told us that imports of approximately 1,700,000 tons of coarse grains had been arranged in Paris as the appropriate imports for the grain year just ended. We have not the final figures, but I think we are a great deal short of that, and for next year that Committee bargained for 2,600,000 tons of coarse grains imports. Can the Minister tell us whether that is now likely to be achieved? If it is, it is a little odd that the Minister should be so hesitant in telling us about increases or alterations in the rationing system, and if it is not, I think it high time that we knew.
  Of course, we all welcome the recent agreement with Eire. Not only does it

  857
  mean better relations with that country, but it means more food for our people. Some of us are as yet ignorant of how that agreement is to be fitted in with the increase of feedingstuffs for our own people. No one, I imagine, at least no one on this side of the Committee, would support an agreement which meant depriving our own people of this very essential ingredient of agriculture in order to give it to someone else and it is quite clear that imports into Eire from hard currency countries must be financed by us.
  It is very nearly three years now since the war ended and this Government came into power. Those three years have witnessed a steady decline in the quantity and quality of our food supply. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] It is in the White Paper. That decline has not been arrested, but has accelerated in the last year. One recognises the difficulties which confront the right hon. Gentleman, but I say emphatically that much more could have been done to overcome those difficulties both by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues if they had shown more foresight and more enterprise. It does not much interest us or the public who need the food whether the responsibility rests primarily upon the right hon. Gentleman or his colleagues—it rests on the Government as a whole. On that record we condemn the Government and we only hope that, at long last, they may begin to learn from experience.
  4.0 p.m.
  The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): It will perhaps be for the convenience of the Committee if I try to deal with some but not all the points which were raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) before I come to the Estimates proper. I will not say very much about potatoes because a good deal will probably be said later in the afternoon, and the Parliamentary Secretary, who will reply to the Debate, will deal with that matter. I will merely say that it is perfectly true that the forecasts that we made for the end of this potato year—for the month of May and the beginning of June—were, I use the word quite frankly, falsified by the event in the sense that the potato crop this year was the earliest in living memory and was extremely bountiful. All I can say is that I heartily wish that every estimate I made was
  858
  falsified in the same way. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cheer up."] That was something to be cheerful about, at any rate.
  As to the South African point, and the right hon. Gentleman's complaint that we were missing offers of food, we should have liked to buy those white peas, but we have a certain amount to spend in South Africa and we could not fit in that purchase. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman speaks of South Africa as being in the sterling area, he is correct in one sense, but beyond a certain point any purchase from South Africa means that we get that much less gold so that it is the exact equivalent of hard currency or dollar payment. We simply could not afford these peas. [HON. MEMBERS: "Snoek."] We brought snoek, and I am glad to be able to tell the Committee that snoek is being steadily bought by the housewives of this country.
  It always seems to me to be rather a pity that hon. Gentlemen opposite, who tell us that they are so keen on the Commonwealth, as I am sure they are, have chosen to single out a Commonwealth product which the South Africans are extremely keen to sell to us. They made us a very substantial gold loan to enable us to buy that and other things from their country, and they have been met by a barrage of derision by hon. Members opposite. That is their little contribution to Commonwealth solidarity, and, quite frankly, it is a poor one. I think it is because that product has a funny name that it amuses them.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman spent an appreciable amount of his time on this alleged transaction concerning tinned meat from Eire. May I simply say, and I do not think that it merits saying much more, that we did not buy all the tinned meat at the price at which it was offered to us at that particular moment. We did a little bargaining. The whole thing has now been fixed up. Under the Eire agreement we are buying a larger quantity of this tinned meat and the price is being arranged. Until we came to the bargain as a whole we did not simply buy just what was offered us and pay just what we were asked to pay for that meat, which seems to me a prudent thing to have done.
  While on the subject of Eire the right hon. and learned Gentleman asked for an

  859
  assurance that under this new agreement we did not provide Eire with any feedingstuffs. I can give him that assurance at once.
  Mr. J. S. C. Reid: No, what I said was that obviously we must finance the purchase of feedingstuffs by Eire, and I wanted to know how that fitted in with not depriving us of what we needed?
  Mr. Strachey: It is impossible for us to forbid the Eire Government to buy feedingstuffs. They are a sovereign Government and we cannot do that, but. I repeat that we are not providing the Eire Government with any feedingstuffs.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that we were buying fancy goods from France and elsewhere in soft currencies—
  Sir Jocelyn Lucas: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman about the canned horse flesh? Was it for human consumption?
  Mr. Strachey: The position is simply that we were approached by an Irish firm which wished to sell us canned horse flesh. All we did was to ask the Eire Government, "What about this? What is the nature of this offer, what is the nature of the firm, what is the nature of the product?" We never bought a pennyworth and that is all there is to the whole matter.
  Major Legge-Bourke: Will the right hon. Gentleman say why, if his rule was that no horse meat should come into this country for human consumption, he thought it worth while bothering the Eire Government about the matter?
  Mr. Strachey: I know of no such rule. There is no ruling on the subject. We were offered hors meat. We inquired of the Eire Government as to the nature of the offer, the product and the firm. We never bought any. I should not imagine that it would be a suitable thing to buy, but I certainly would not lay down any rule that no horse meat was ever to be imported into this country.
  Major Legge-Bourke: The right hon. Gentleman has given that assurance in this House.
  Mr. J. S. C. Reid: The right hon. Gentleman is expressly denying what Mr. Dillon, the Eire Minister of Agriculture
  860
  has said. Let me repeat it to him and see if he denies it. He said that he found an inquiry waiting on his desk for him from the British Ministry of Food asking for "unlimited supplies of canned horse meat." That is what Mr. Dillon said. Is that wrong?
  Mr. Strachey: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman forces me into the position of saying it, that is an inaccurate statement of the position. As I have just said, we had this offer, we made inquiries of the Irish Government as to their view of the offer. That is precisely what happened, no less and no more. I do not think that I should take more of the time of the Committee on that point.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke of other highly nutritious foods from the Commonwealth being refused. I should like to know what he meant by that. If he means that whenever some private firm in some part of the Commonwealth offers us some foodstuffs and quotes a price for it, we do not at that moment close with that offer at any price we are asked, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is perfectly right. We often bargain for quite a long time. If the foodstuff is not of a particular kind or important in quantity we may not carry through the bargain; that is perfectly true. But that we have refused any foodstuffs from the Commonwealth at a price that we can afford, or in quantities which have any significance I completely deny. That we have certainly never done.
  Turning to bread rationing, let me say at once that I sympathise very strongly with many of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's arguments. I do not need anyone to press me to get rid of bread rationing, which obviously everyone of us would like to end at the earliest possible moment. I cannot make an announcement to the Committee on that subject today, but they may absolutely rely on me to be rid of it at the very earliest possible moment. I hope and trust that that moment will not be too long delayed. The right hon. and learned Gentleman also asked me to lower the extraction rate. I can really only say the same thing. Obviously we should like to lower the extraction rate further, not an unlimited degree further, but certainly further. I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that if we

  861
  cannot lower it by 5 per cent. it would be well worth while to lower it by 2½ per cent. It we were in a position to do that I should certainly do so. For the reasons that the right hon. and learned Gentleman gave, I would give the ending of bread rationing, of which he spoke, priority even over the lowering of the extraction rate. I think it is more important to do that and do that first. If we are able at the same future moment to do both we will certainly do both.
  I turn to the Estimates before the Committee.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will the right hon. Gentleman, or the hon. Lady later, be dealing a little more fully than the right hon. Gentleman has done already with the point when the Eire Agreement comes into force?
  Mr. Strachey: If the hon. and gallant Member, or anyone else in the Committee, cares to put specific points to us on that I am sure that my hon. Friend will deal with them.
  I think that the Committee should look at the Estimates before them, because I readily concede that they may not be entirely clear to hon. Members as they stand. They involve a very important issue of food subsidies and what the amount of food subsidies may be. What the Committee may see with some surprise is that the real Vote which matters in this Estimate Vote H—"Trading Services (Net)" shows, or appears to show, this year, a decrease of no less than £150 million. It drops from last year's net expenditure of £459 million to £302 million. At first sight one might suppose, therefore, that there would be a drop in the food subsidies of that amount, because although these figures cannot correspond at all closely, the Committee might expect that there would be some general correspondence. It would expect them to move, at any rate, in the same direction.
  For we deliberately sell the food which we buy from abroad at a lower price to our own people than we buy it abroad. The difference, roughly speaking, is the subsidy. So how is it that, while, as I think the Committee knows, there is no sign, unfortunately, of the subsidies going down, that figure in the Estimates is £150 million less? There are a number of explanations. It is not a question of de-stocking, which could be one explanation.
  Captain Crookshank: De-stocking?
  Mr. Strachey: The word "de-stocking" means having less stock, taking from stock. It is quite a simple phrase. It might be thought that the stocks of the country have been run down by that amount and so I hasten to say that that is not the case. The stock figures are, if anything, a little higher, and not lower.
  The real explanation, as I dare say the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows—but I think it is important to make it clear to the Committee—lies in the Andes Agreement, and the prepayment of £84 million to Argentina. Some of the food paid for last year did arrive during last year, but there is £84 million worth of food paid for in last year's accounts which will arrive in this year. Therefore we have really to add £84 million to this year's figure—to the £302 million—and subtract £84 million from the £459 million. There are other differences, too, but they are very nearly self-balancing. So the Andes Agreement and the prepayment of £84 million really accounts for the whole of the £150 million difference between those two figures.
  The Committee would probably like to know, and I think they have a right to know, what may be the position with regard to food subsidies. I cannot pretend that I can give them a firm estimate of what the food subsidies will turn out to be by the end of the year. The Chancellor has always repeated that he cannot, at this stage, give such a firm estimate. But I can say, though this is hypothetical, that if no changes are made on either side of the account, the subsidies are running at the moment at a rate of something like £470 million a year. That is undoubtedly a very high figure, but before the Committee considers that that figure is unduly high they should take very carefully into account what we are getting for that money. I believe that we are getting two things, a most valuable nutritional value, a most valuable effect upon our population, and a most valuable economic effect.
  That brings me to the question of the nutritional history of the past year, which was touched on by the right hon. Gentleman. It is perfectly true that last Autumn the nutritional prospect for the first six months of 1948 was a dark one indeed. The Chancellor told the House,

  863
  perfectly frankly, that we feared that the calorie intake of the population, on average, would drop to below 2,700 during the first six months of 1948. That was because of the balance of payments crisis which struck this country in August and because that meant that we had to stop all purchases of foodstuffs from the United States, saving no less than £12 million worth of dollars a month by that cessation of United States purchases. Added to that was the fact that it was one of the worst potato harvests on record.
  Therefore, my nutritional and scientific advisers looked forward to the first six months of this year with the greatest apprehensions. We took some very active measures to try and fill the gap. We were helped, and I say this very readily, by some very favourable factors in the weather, in climatic factors. But it is interesting to note, now we have just finished that first six months, that as a matter of fact the calorie level remained almost exactly 2,800, and not below 2,700 as we had feared. It did not drop by that 200 calories of which the right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke.
  Mr. J. S. C. Reid: May we have detailed figures about that?
  Mr. Strachey: How the average per capita calories were made up? I will certainly consider that.
  The Committee may ask how that was done. It was done first and foremost by the process, which the right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned, of the switch from dollar sources for foodstuffs to sterling and other currency sources. He thinks we lost opportunities for buying in those fields, but I assure him that it was not a very easy task to fill a gap of £12 million worth of food a month suddenly without any loss in the actual calorie intake of the country.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: May I ask this question? I think it is important. The right hon. Gentleman says that he switched his purchases from dollar countries to non-dollar countries. Before that, he was arguing in his speech that purchases from South Africa and other countries inside the sterling area which supply us with gold or gold earning commodities must be accounted as being the same as hard currency areas. I think
  864
  those two arguments are contradictory. I would like him to explain the difference.
  Mr. Strachey: I think that South Africa is a special case. I am sure the hon. Member would agree. For various reasons—and hon. Members opposite may know some of them—South Africa is a distinctly scarce currency country at the moment and it is not comparable with other places in the Empire.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Canada?
  Mr. Strachey: Canada is a dollar source. The hon. Member knows that as well as I do. But it is perfectly true, and the hon. Member makes a good point if he is arguing it, that we must not think we can buy things in the non-dollar world for nothing. It is only less difficult to buy them there than to buy from dollar sources; but they all have to be paid for wherever they come from. This means that when we made this switch it was absolutely necessary to make it; but it does not mean that we got the food for nothing. Therefore, we must still look critically at the prices of the particular foodstuffs we buy even though they come from Commonwealth sources. That is the answer to the point made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid). I certainly think that the record of our switch in filling that gap is a complete answer to any accusation that we are losing opportunities of buying food wherever we can pay for it.
  I will say a little more in detail about those Commonwealth sources and about the 37 bilateral negotiations which have been concluded since last August, many of which are of great importance to our food supplies. But, of course, that is only one way in which the gap left by our inability to buy dollar foods has been closed so far. The other way is by a great effort in the home production of foodstuffs, an effort which was greatly assisted by good climatic conditions—I say that at once—in the field of potatoes, milk, eggs, fish and vegetables. All those supplies were most appreciably above what they had been the year before. That was a very great help. Again, by negotiation with our good friends in Canada, we were able to get back that one ounce of bacon which we lost in the Autumn, from a dollar source, and we were able to increase by one ounce the oils and fats

  865
  ration. We were able to do that temporarily. We announced it only for 12 weeks because we were not sure, but so far at any rate, we have been able to carry on that increase and I have good hopes that we shall be able to carry it on in future.
  That is the first fruit—and only the first fruit—of the very great efforts which we are making in the field of oils and fats. I would agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that it is perhaps the most difficult long-term problem in food supplies which this country faces. At any rate, we were able to keep up just about the 2,800 calorie level through these very difficult first six months—the period after the convertibility crisis of last August and before the negotiation of the European Recovery Programme. That was due partly to our good luck—we had the weather—but it was an achievement. I do not claim that achievement for my Ministry or for the Government as a whole: it was a national achievement. It was something of which we can be proud. On the other hand, I would say that 2,800 calories is by no means too much. It is a low figure. I would be the first to agree with that. It is a figure which is sufficient, in the opinion of our scientific and nutritional advisers, but it is only just sufficient. Therefore, our food supply needs the most careful handling in distribution. Above all, there must be the fairest possible distribution.
  I should like to refer to the welfare services which the Ministry continues to run—the infant welfare service, the orange juice, the free milk, the milk at reduced prices, and school meals. Fifty-two per cent. of all school children now receive school meals as against 4 per cent. before the war. All these services need most careful administration throughout the country. I would say a word of the work of the men and women behind the counters in the food offices. I am sure that many of us—I dare say all of us—have cursed them at one time or another. They have to do meticulous and intricate work. I certainly am not good at filling up forms and, like others, I get irritated; but I think we all agree that these men and women who work under heavy pressure—pressure unrelieved in any way up to now—deserve very well of the nation
  866
  for the great efforts they make in the food offices throughout the country.
  That brings me back to the question of subsidies. We kept up the level of 2,800 calories with the utmost difficulty. We could not do any more than that: we were just able to do that. Therefore, there is a most imperative need for the fairest possible sharing of foodstuffs. That would be absolutely impossible without this heavy subsidy expenditure. That is the first and basic justification of this large sum of money, which the Committee today is, in effect, asked to approve. We need only think of what the effect would be on the sharing out of the foodstuffs of the country if that expenditure were stopped and food subsidies ceased to exist. There is no doubt that the steep rise In food prices which would take place immediately would sharply cut down working-class consumption of food.
  Therefore, it would be a most attractive proposition for some people, because it would mean that probably very little food rationing through coupons would be necessary. It would mean that those who had the money to spend on the higher priced foods would find that they were far more readily available than they are today. I readily admit that. That is why I find in many fields a great clamour against food rationing and food subsidies. I addressed a certain meeting of ladies in my constituency which achieved a good deal of national publicity. They made a very great clamour to me against food rationing and food subsidies. It was perfectly true that, from their point of view, food would be much more freely available to them if we abolished food subsidies and food rationing because, from that moment, fair shares of food would become impossible.
  But there was an interesting feature which I do not think was reported in the national Press. It always struck me as interesting that the place at which that meeting was held is a curious place in my constituency at Dundee. It is a hall which has the curious name of the "Free Breakfast Hall." That name commemorates the fact that it was founded by a pious jute mill owner in order to distribute free breakfasts to destitute people in Dundee. I reminded that audience—I do not think they took very much notice of that or of anything else I said—that if they had their way, and if their point of view

  867
  became the policy of the Government, then certainly we should return to those conditions for the mass of the people of Dundee which were summed up in the existence of and the need for a free breakfast hall.
  Mr. Drayson: The right hon. Gentleman has abolished breakfast.
  Mr. Strachey: It is precisely because we do not mean to return to those conditions, precisely because so long as there is difficulty in the total quantity of food which we can make available, that we are determined to see that food is really fairly shared. That is why we ask the Committee confidently to vote this considerable proportion of the money they are asked to vote for this purpose.
  If people ask what value they are getting for their money, I ask them, first and foremost, to look at the children of this country. I do not know whether the Committee saw a remarkable tribute to the condition of our children given by a most distinguished foreign visitor recently, Professor Henri Bonnet, of the French Academy of Medicine and a Director of the French Red Cross. Only last month, after he had just visited this country—not just casually, but after coming here with a delegation of 12 child specialists and making the most careful examination of our children in the schools—he said:
  "In 10 years, England will have a generation of young men and women superior, physically and mentally, to those of any other European country. I am convinced that the excellent physical condition of these children is due to their feeding. Their diet is perfectly balanced, and the system of milk in schools, school feeding and extra vitamin nourishment provided by clinics has had obvious results."
  I commend that to the Committee as evidence of value for the large sums of money which we are expending in these food subsidies.
  I think there is, at this moment, another and very important aspect of our expenditure on food subsidies, and that is the part which it is playing in the determined attempt we are making to reach economic stability in this country. The White Paper on Personal Incomes and Expenditure has been mentioned. That is an effort to do a very difficult thing, which is to check, and, if possible, to reverse, or at any rate to arrest altogether, the development of the
  868
  inflationary pressure which is going on in this country and all over the world, though a good deal less in this country than in most parts of the world. I do not know whether the Committee is fully seized of it, but it is a fact that, in the last two months for which we have records—April and May—neither the index figure of retail prices nor the index figure of wages moved upwards. They both remained stable for those two months, retail prices at the figure of 108 and wages at the low figure of 105. I do not mean to say that that proves that we have conquered inflation. Certainly not—not in a mere two months. But I think this does show the first fruits of that policy of stabilisation, and it shows for the moment, at any rate, that the inflationary spiral of price increases, which is bound to be followed by wage increases, but never followed quite successfully by wage increases, is being checked and arrested for the moment.
  Sir Waldron Smithers: When the Minister gives the figures of 108 and 105, can he say with what date he is comparing them?
  Mr. Strachey: The comparison is with 1947. I suggest that the value to the economy of this country of the money we are expending on keeping food prices stable, quite apart from the human and nutritional side—the hard-headed economic side—is enormous. I therefore commend to the Committee this expenditure, large as it is.
  The only other subhead to which I should like to call the attention of the Committee is one which was also referred to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman; it is Subhead I—Capital Costs of Factories. It will seem a rather puzzling fact that, in the subhead concerning the production of groundnuts in East and Central Africa, there is no expenditure given at all. The technical explanation of that is that, since the passage of the Overseas Resources Development Act, 150 million was voted to the Overseas Food Corporation, which is conducting that scheme, and the money is drawn from the Consolidated Fund. That does not mean, of course, that the money has not been drawn. It is drawn through the Ministry of Food, and, therefore, the right hon. and learned Gentleman was perfectly right in raising it on this occasion.

  869
  I have just returned from a visit to East Africa, and I think the Committee will expect me to say something about the scheme, and, above all, about its financial aspects, on which we are speaking on a Supply Day, so I will approach it from that side. Since I have returned, I have had a financial re-assessment made of the present prospects of the scheme. In order to do that, it is absolutely necessary to make certain arbitrary assumptions, both on costs and on the prices of the product, because both, quite clearly, have altered in the two years that have passed since the original estimate was made. I say arbitrary assumptions because I do not pretend to be able, and I am quite sure that nobody else is, to forecast for the five or more years ahead what course costs will take or what groundnut prices will be. It is possible to say, however, that both costs and the prices of the products will be considerably higher than in the original estimate.
  It is rather important—and the Committee will have a right to know—whether on the balance of these items of costs and prices of the products—the groundnuts and the oils and fats—the financial prospects of the scheme, the profitability of the scheme, are going to improve or deteriorate. So we made a calculation in which we quite arbitrarily took the figure that the non-recurrent costs of development—the costs of the clearing operations, the building of houses, railways and ports—were going to be no less than double the original estimate.
  I ask the Committee to take note of the fact that I am not saying that they are going to be doubled. I do not know how much they are going to be increased. All I am saying is that I am taking the hypothesis that they are doubled, and calculating the effect of that on the scheme. We worked this out somewhat carefully, and we find that, if the non-recurrent capital costs of clearing land, getting it ready for cultivation and all the ancillary things which that involves, were doubled, it would add some 365, to the cost of production of groundnuts per ton. It depends, of course, on the period over which we amortise the money, on the forecast of interest rates and the like, but that is the order of magnitude of the increase of the cost of production per ton.
  870
  Hon. Members may ask why is it probable that the cost of clearance will be higher. There are two reasons, and the first is because of the process of rising prices all over the world, from which the scheme cannot possibly be immune. For example, the cost of petrol and Diesel oil is 35 to 40 per cent. greater than when the scheme was launched. All the things which the scheme has to buy have obviously gone up in price. And let me make it clear that certain technical problems associated with rooting the ground after the initial clearance will almost certainly demand more tractor-hours than was provided for in the original forecast. Therefore, that will add to the capital cost of clearance. The original forecast will undoubtedly be exceeded for both these reasons.
  What has happened in the meantime, while these capital costs have been rising, to the prospects of the scheme in the sense of the value of the products which it is designed to produce? When the scheme was launched, it was designed to produce groundnuts, and it was reckoned that it would sell groundnuts for £30 per ton for the first three years, dropping to £20 per ton. Today we are having to pay for certain marginal quantities of groundnuts not £20 or £30 a ton but between £65 and £70 a ton. Therefore, this is an expression of the degree to which the value of the article which we are going to produce in East Africa has also gone up and, as the Committee sees, it has gone up far more steeply even than the increase in the cost of the product, the clearance of the land, the petrol and so on which will be needed for those purposes.
  We reworked the finance of the scheme, not on astronomical prices such as £65 or £70 a ton for the product, although it would have been perfectly legitimate to do that. We took the figure which we are paying for our main supply of groundnuts today from Nigeria—£41 a ton—and we reckoned, perhaps optimistically, from the point of view of the Ministry of Food, that after three years that price would begin dropping by £2 10s. a ton a year. We applied those proceeds to the proceeds of the groundnuts scheme and worked out what the balance would be if we doubled the capital cost of development, added substantially to the annual agricultural costs and sold the product at

  871
  the new price which I have mentioned of £41 a ton, dropping by £2 10s. a ton after the first three years.
  We found that the result was that the scheme, far from being less sound economically, or less profitable than the original estimate, was substantially more sound and profitable. Although the cost may have gone up—I do not say by double but by a substantial amount—the prospect of the price which will be realised for the product has gone up far more, and that surely is an expression of the fact that we were abundantly justified when we picked out oils and fats as the field for a major public effort to increase the supply, because the very high price in the world today is simply an expression of the world famine in oils and fats.
  Mr. John Paton: At what date are these estimates likely to be given reality by the production of substantial quantities of groundnuts?
  Mr. Strachey: I shall be coming to that, if my hon. Friend will bear with me. Before I come to that matter, I should like to read to the Committee a few words from a very eminent businessman, Mr. Faure, of the United Africa Company, who, I think it is safe to say, knows as much about the prospect of oils and fats in the world as anyone. His words are a little critical of hon. Members, all of us, but perhaps the Committee will bear with that because I think it is of interest. Speaking a couple of months ago, he said:
  "When I read the recent Parliamentary Debates I was astonished at the lack of understanding, the lack of knowledge and the blindness of our elected representatives in the House. I am almost getting tired of having to say it over and over again, but the pure naked fact is that the world is heading for a famine in oils and fats, not only in the primitive tropical regions but also, and even more so, in Europe and the other importing countries. Europe will this year be short of 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 tons of fat. That is the equivalent of five million to six million tons of groundnuts. We could only overcome the shortage by increasing exportable surpluses in the tropical countries. That and nothing else is the problem to which the East African groundnut scheme is endeavouring to provide the solution, and whilst the production of some 600,000 or 800,000 tons of groundnuts will go far to alleviate the oil and fat hunger in our own country, the much deeper significance of the scheme is the creation of a prototype which must supply the data and the experience that, if applied to all tropical areas, will enable the world to supply these things. It is really appalling that there is still such a lack of realization
  872
  of the dangers of the situation, and it makes me boil with indignation when this great scheme, to which everyone at home and abroad should give his fullest support, is being made an object of political squabbles."
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Did the gentleman, whom I know quite well, forget to refer to vastly over-optimistic statements by the Minister?
  Mr. Strachey: I will come to that point; it has been mentioned in a Debate last week. That quotation, at any rate, is an expression certainly not from anyone on this side of the Committee but from a very eminent businessman, of how he regards the aspect of our affairs if and when a scheme of this sort becomes subject to unreasonable criticism. No one suggests that it should be immune from criticism—it is vital that it should be criticised—but when it is quite obviously used as a political counter—not necessarily always in the House, though sometimes it is, but in the public Press—that is how it strikes an eminent businessman who is intimately concerned with the problems at first hand.
  In that connection, the right hon. and learned Gentleman asked me about rubber seeds. It is a matter of great interest, but he is quite misinformed in thinking that nothing has been done in the matter. Research work has been going on for over a year. Unilever, which is naturally intensely interested in any new source of oils and fats, is very concerned with the matter and has been making experiments both in Nigeria and in Malaya. I assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that both that firm and ourselves will do our utmost to see if some new source can be developed. Whether it is a practical proposition or not I do not pretend to have a useful opinion, but it would be most valuable if it could be developed.
  All this is not to say for one moment that everything has gone or will go smoothly with the groundnuts scheme. No great pioneering venture of that sort could possibly go smoothly. The right hon. and learned Gentleman challenged me to admit in the frankest and freest possible way what mistakes had been made, even if they were big mistakes. I will do that, but in doing so I would say that in speaking of the mistakes which have been made in the first year of operation—and, of course, there have been such mistakes; no one could have

  873
  avoided them—it may sound as if I am blaming the United Africa Company, which was the managing agency during that period. I certainly do not wish to do that. I believe that the United Africa Company deserves well of this nation for the way in which they undertook that scheme and for the job which they have done. But I think it is true to say that they did make, in particular, two serious mistakes, and I will mention them because I have been challenged to do so, and it is right that the Committee should be aware of them. But I mention them always with the caveat that I certainly am not blaming the managing agents for those mistakes, because any other form of management would have made perhaps not those mistakes but other mistakes. No one could possibly have begun that scheme without learning from experience.
  The two mistakes which were made by the managing agency during their period were these. The first one, less important, was that their storekeeping accounts in the earlier stage were defective. They did not keep track fully of all the supplies and materials which were brought in to Tanganyika, and there is a difficulty in straightening out those accounts. I think if anyone has recently visited East Africa he will to some extent sympathise with the managing agency, the United Africa Company, in that failure, if he saw, as I did, the way in which these stores arrived in East Africa. The Committee should remember that a very high proportion of them are surplus war stores, brought literally by the ton from Middle East, the Far East and the other theatres of the last war, and they arrive in the holds of the ships—often very valuable and useful material—in the most extraordinary mixture.
  I saw the work of sorting out these stores—hand tools, tents, kitchen utensils and other kinds of stores, all mixed up together. They were bought, of course, exceedingly cheaply and there is some very valuable material—but I could see that it would be very difficult in the rush of the opening period to account for them meticulously. We are doing our very utmost to see that these stores are accounted for in the end. I would say, in defence of the United Africa Company, that, after all, they were able to buy these stores in that condition very cheaply
  874
  and that a large part of the money, at any rate, flowed back into the hands of the Treasury. So they were surely wise and prudent purchases even if the character of them made it very difficult, under those conditions, to have a perfect accounting system.
  That is the first admission I would make about this scheme. The second admission, and one which is more important, is that the managing agency did not adequately or entirely envisage the scope of the maintenance problem of their heavy tractors. They have now a very large fleet of heavy tractors in East Africa. They will have a very extensive fleet indeed in a few months time and again, up till now, these have all been surplus tractors from the war theatres, many of them with very little mileage on their clocks but with a great deal of exposure from one or two years on the beach in the Philippines or in the Western Desert and, therefore, needing heavy initial overhaul—in many cases stripping—before they were put to work, and certainly more maintenance than a new machine would need. But I think it is true to say that, even if new machines had been available, the scale of the workshops and their equipment was not, from the beginning, fully adequate.
  It is a curious thing, in which I think all hon. Members with experience of operations of war will bear me out, that seldom or never is the maintenance problem fully dealt with from the beginning. It is apparently almost impossible for the human mind to envisage the degree to which big, heavy machines need maintenance today, and the provision for it is never on a big enough scale. I think that is undoubtedly true in this case and it is the main reason for the delay in the time-table of the scheme. Again, I wish to say that I would be the last person to blame the managing agency for that mistake because, although I think it is one point in which they did make a mistake, others responsible might have made a different mistake and certainly no-one could avoid making some mistakes.
  I will come to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton) about the time-table of the scheme, and I have said this before, publicly, in Nairobi. If the Committee carries its mind back to the original Wakefield-Ross-Martin Report, they will recall that the scheme was due to start in 1947.

  875
  That was to be the first year and it was to take a five-year period of development. Let me say this in justice to the authors of that report—it was made on the hypothesis that machinery would be on site in East Africa by February, 1947, whereas, in fact, the machinery could not start there until July, 1947. Even when it did arrive there was further delay in getting it into use, mainly, I think, because of the character of the machinery and the failure to provision adequately for maintenance in the early months. In fact, as the Committee knows, a negligible amount of clearance was done in 1947–7,000 acres, negligible from a commercial point of view although very valuable from an experimental point of view, a fairly big-scale agricultural experiment, very impressive to look at when one sees it, but negligible commercially.
  I think, therefore, we must say that 1947 was perforce a year of preparations, of some experiment which was very valuable and may save us a great deal of money in the end, but it was not a year of commercial production at all. The year 1948, therefore, with the harvest in 1949, will be the first year of the five-year period of development. Whither all the 3 million acres will have been cleared at the end of the five years I do not pretend to be enough of a prophet to say. But I would say, in answer to the specific question of my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, that there will be a commercial product in the next harvest—that is, the harvest of the spring or early summer of 1949. That will be the first year in which there will be a commercial product from the scheme, but whether the whole thing will be finished on schedule in five years I would not like to phophesy to the Committee. I would say this: if it is, it will probably be the first scheme in history which is finished on schedule. I would repeat, that whatever the timing of the scheme, everything indicates that it is not less but far more valuable than anyone of us could have foreseen when we started it.
  The last point with which I should like to deal is that raised by the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) last week and a similar point, that raised just now by the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher). I was glad the right hon. Gentleman said he now thought the
  876
  scheme was a sound idea, but he then made two definite accusations against me, one that I made wildly optimistic, indeed hopelessly optimistic, statements and the other, a much serious accusation, that in trying to justify these statements I attempted to hurry the men on the spot and to drive them into premature production. Those are really quite serious charges, especially the second one, and the right hon. Gentleman produced not the slightest jot or tittle of evidence to support them. I challenged this Committee before to produce one of these wildly overoptimistic statements which I am said to have made. We heard the accusation from the hon. Member for Bury, but he had no chapter and verse.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: This Committee knows perfectly well that there is no greater adept than the Minister at putting in things which, when they are read out, will give quite a different impression. [Interruption]. I am not going to be bullied. If the Committee will go back and read all the statements which the Minister has made in this House and outside, they will see that the impression he gave was undoubtedly that this scheme was going very much better than actually it was.
  Mr. Strachey: I feel I have a certain right to ask—I see the right hon. Member for West Bristol in his place—that the right hon. Gentleman should justify the somewhat serious charge he has made against me—not this one, which has been made just now, that I made overoptimistic statements, for in that case I can simply ask for substantiation, but the other and much more serious charge that in any way and on any occasion I attempted to drive those carrying out the scheme into undue and precipitate action in order to try to justify these alleged optimistic statements. I most categorically deny both accusations and I should like to see them justified and substantiated. I ask the Committee to recall what, in fact, we did say. In the original White Paper, Cmd. 7033, of 1st February, 1947, our actual words were:
  "Serious difficulties and delays, many of them unforeseeable, may arise in the course of the undertaking."
  What is there wildly over-optimistic about that? [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."] I cannot read the whole White Paper to the Committee. The important thing is that

  877
  we were most careful to say that difficulties and delays might arise. I think the Committee, as the hon. Member for Bury was implying just now, will bear us out that we were very careful to say that difficulties which we could foresee and some which we could not not only might but almost certainly would arise in the course of a scheme of this sort.
  I have no more to say on that. This being a Supply Day I have approached the groundnuts scheme from a balance sheet point of view; but I think that that is a rather narrow point of view from which to approach this scheme. It seems to me that a large and an imaginative project of this sort is something that this country should engage in today. It does seem to me of vital importance that in a perhaps, rather humdrum, drab world, we should start some project, some enterprise, which strikes the imagination and this scheme has struck people's imagination. The Overseas Food Corporation have had over 100,000 applications from men and women of this country to go to work on the scheme. [HON. MEMBERS: "They want to get out of this country."] Can hon. Members opposite think of nothing better than that cheap sneer? They speak a great deal about a spirit of enterprise, but they use that term in a most restricted sense. The spirit of enterprise is a most valuable spirit, which we certainly value on this side of the Committee; the 109,000 applications to work on the groundnuts scheme show that that spirit is not dead in our country. I believe that foreign opinion, at any rate, regards the courage and enterprise of this country in engaging, in the midst of its difficulties, in a great enterprise of this sort as something which is a very great earnest of our future and of the full recovery of this country.
  I must pass on rapidly to the other Commonwealth schemes and activities in which we are engaging. It is very true, of course, that the groundnuts scheme, though it receives so much attention, is only one, and, compared to all the rest, a very small part of the development which is either in operation or is projected. The Overseas Food Corporation has begun its other enterprise in Queensland, Australia. I see in "The Times" this morning some very fine photographs of the first ploughing going on in Queensland, which is a quite heartening sign. About 8,000 acres I am told, have already been ploughed.
  878
  I should like to mention one other matter concerning oils and fats which the right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned, and which does cause us great concern, and that is, the provision of adequate railway facilities for moving the West African crop down the Kano railway. He is very right to be concerned with that. It is something with which we have been concerned for some time. The Committee probably will not know it, but I did last March take an opportunity to go up to the Vulcan Works in Lancashire to thank the workers there for their efforts in producing 20 locomotives which have now arrived in Lagos and are being put in operation on that railway. I mention that as showing that, far from concentrating my attention solely on East Africa, I want groundnuts from every part of the world. It is perfectly true that in the provision of adequate railway material to that railway there has been delay—heartbreaking delay reaching back beyond the time of the tenure of office of this Government. But now it is being overcome. Twenty locomotives and 50 wagons have now arrived, and I think we may look for improvement from now onwards. However, the Committee need not think I am satisfied, or that I shall be, until we have cleared the backlog there. There are groundnuts which might be in our margarine lying there idle, and I think it of the utmost importance to move them.
  More important in the aggregate than these schemes are the agreements and arrangements which we are coming to with other parts of the Commonwealth. Many officers of my Department were in Australia during the last winter, and a series of useful agreements has been reached with the Australian Government. Further conversations are going on, and notably in the last few days. For there have been very useful conversations with Mr. Chifley, the Prime Minister of Australia, during his present valuable visit. In the case of New Zealand I can inform the Committee that we are at the moment actively negotiating a seven-year contract for New Zealand dairy products. I have very good hopes indeed that we shall be able to announce the conclusion of that agreement very shortly. It will be something new in the history of this country and New Zealand, to put our contractual relations on a seven years' basis.

  879
  In the case of Canada, we have been able to maintain, though with the utmost difficulty from the payments point of view, our valuable food contracts with Canada. In that connection I would answer the right hon. and learned Gentleman's question about what we are going to do with E.R.P. assistance, from the food point of view. Of course, all that assistance will not be spent on food, but much the major part of what is spent on food will be used to help us to pay for our Canadian supplies. That is the real purpose that the E.R.P. dollars will serve; and we should have been hard put to it indeed to find a way of paying for those supplies without that assistance.
  Now I come—and they are of equal importance—to the series of agreements which we have reached with foreign countries, those 37 bilateral pacts which have been successfully negotiated—not only by my Department, for they are much wider than that—with European, South American, and Asian countries in the last nine months. I may mention as especially important the Andes Agreement with Argentina, the Agreement with Denmark, the recent Agreement with Brazil, the Agreement with Russia, the Agreement with Holland, and the Agreement with Poland, all of which are useful, and all of which will mean, I believe and hope, that increasing quantities of foodstuffs will begin to flow to this country, and some of which are producing very useful quantities already, the Danish, Argentinian and Russian Agreements for example.
  That brings me to the subject of coarse grains which was referred to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. It is very true that the importation of coarse grains today to this country is of the utmost importance to us. We have very successfully augmented the quantity we have been able to buy. Under the Andes Agreement we buy over a million tons; and under the Russian Agreement 750,000 tons. Those are the two main additions to our supply of coarse grains, and they will be, surely, of very great assistance to our home agriculture. But I would say this word of warning to the Committee. Coarse grains at present world cereal prices are very expensive imports, indeed. I had a calculation mane, and it is the case today that for every spent on the importation of coarse
  880
  grains we get only about a third as much meat—animal protein—as for a £ spent on importing meat from the Argentine, Australia or New Zealand. It is a somewhat startling fact. Do not let the Committee suppose that it means that we do not want to import coarse grains. We do—and to restore our own livestock. But at the moment, with present world prices, imported meat is a far cheaper source of protein food than is imported coarse grain which is turned into meat in this country. In fact we must do both.
  Until coarse grains come down sharply in price, which personally I believe they will, we are faced with an exceedingly expensive import in the case of coarse grains. Why is that? It is because of the cereal shortage in the world, and because the meat which we import both from the Argentine and the Antipodes is grass fed and, therefore, can be produced a good deal cheaper. Surely, one of the morals of that—I go here into the field of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture—is that the more grass fed meat we can produce in this country the better. It underlines the very great importance of the technical development in grass growing and grass conservation of all kinds with which the agricultural industry is so concerned today. Until and unless the price level of cereals goes down by a very considerable amount, half or less than half, the advantages of grass fed meat over cereal fed meat is very great indeed.
  Mr. Spence: Could the right hon. Gentleman say how that applies to bacon and pork; or does it apply only to beef and mutton?
  Mr. Strachey: I am referring to beef and mutton. I cannot give the figures for pork, but I will have them worked out. We shall not slacken in our efforts to produce the maximum quantity of meat, bacon, pork and the rest, in this country should we be able to obtain these far larger quantities of coarse grains, but we must look at the price because it is a very serious price which we are asked to pay today.
  How on balance have these efforts left us? They have, as I have told the Committee, just enabled us—and I think this is something of an achievement—to prevent a fall in the calorific intake of the country during this most critical six

  881
  months which we have been through. What is the prospect which we can legitimately ask for the next six months and the next year? I think that I have already told the right hon. and learned Gentleman what we propose to do with E.R.P. funds, and as he knows and as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said there would be no E.R.P. funds available for any sudden or startling rise in our availability of food. The E.R.P. figures which he has given to the House show that our aid does not quite fill the gap in our balance of payments today with the dollar countries. So obviously there can be no hope of a sudden resumption, for example, of buying foodstuffs in the United States. All that it can do is to enable us to pay for our foodstuffs from Canada, and, perhaps, purchase a few foodstuffs in the U.S.A., such as a little cheese, which are not readily available elsewhere. The cheese is only to fill the gap in the quantities available from Canada which has made it necessary for us to get it from elsewhere; it is not a net increase.
  I said last year, in the speech which the right hon. and learned Gentleman quoted, that the food problem was changing. It had been a problem of availability and was becoming one of balance of payments. This year this is greatly intensified, and in the coming year it will be predominantly, in my opinion, a balance of payments problem—a problem not of what we can get but of what we can pay for. I think that that transition is taking place from two points of view. On the one hand, I believe the world food prospect is improving from the standpoint of availability. In cereals, certainly, the world is not nearly as short as it was six or nine months ago. If the harvest prospects are not belied, it ought to be considerably less short of cereals in the Autumn than it was 12 months ago. In the Northern Hemisphere, the crops of cereals are exceedingly promising and should do a good deal to relieve the immediate situation. Again, over twice the quantity of rice is moving in international trade as was moving at this time last year. This is by no means sufficient, but it is a very marked improvement. After all, cereals and rice are the basis of the world's food supply, and slowly but surely the rest of the foodstuffs of the world should improve when that basis begins to become more solid.
  882
  Do I tend to disagree with the forecast made by Sir John Orr and other authorities who spoke in alarming terms of the world food situation? No, I do not think that there is any necessary conflict between the two views, because Sir John Orr is assuming that the vast populations of Asia, China, India and the like must be brought up for the first time in human history to a satisfactory level of nutrition. That is something which we all devoutly pray for and want to advance, but it is something altogether outside the power or scope of anyone speaking for the British Government. It is something which can only be done by those people themselves. Therefore, what I am speaking of is something a little different from what Sir John Orr, with the world-wide responsibility which he recently bore, had to think of. I am speaking only of the world food situation at the current level of effective demand. If the level of demand was raised as it easily could be if every one in China and India secured adequate food, then the world would be desperately short of food for a very long time. But I repeat, at the current level of effective demand, it appears to me that in the basic foodstuffs of rice and cereals we should see an improvement of the availability during the coming year.
  Let me add that that would be cold comfort to us if we were unable to pay for those foodstuffs and that is, of course, a question essentially of our exports—of the growth of our export trade. Very great achievements have been made in the last nine months in the way of raising our exports, but those achievements have been very largely nullified by the fact of the worsening of the terms of trade. In other words, the price of the food we buy has been going up faster than the price of the goods we sell. It is only because of that that we are in our acute difficulties today. Again, I would believe that there is hope for a change in that field also. After all, these great cereal and rice crops are a dominant factor in the situation. The price of wheat is today nearly one dollar a bushel cheaper than it was nine months ago. That is a very appreciable movement, and I cannot help feeling and believing that this movement downwards of the price of basic foodstuffs will continue after the harvest. That, apart from our own efforts which are, of course, vital, is by far the greatest assistance which can come to us.

  883
  Then again, I was asked about what I shall say today about the concluding words of my Estimates speech last year—and I had put it down in my notes to repeat those remarks. I have absolute faith in the ability of the British people over the coming years and the coming decades to provide themselves with an adequate food supply. I believe they can do it in the way that they have done it over the last 100 years, partly by producing food in this fertile island and partly—and on the whole this will be the greater part—by producing by their highly skilled work the products of their hands and their brains—all the multifarious manufactures of this country. And we shall find the great food producing countries of the world still ready and anxious to exchange their foodstuffs for our manufactured products.
  What is the chief lesson for us of the very critical nine months we have been through between the convertibility crisis and the moment of the passage of the European Recovery Programme? Is it not that the great food producing and primary producing countries have as much need of us as we have of them? Therefore I believe that as long as we have an industrious and ingenious population producing manufactures in this country, we can be assured of feeding ourselves.
  5.21 p.m.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: The Committee will have been greatly interested in that part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in which he dealt with his recent tour of East Africa to look at the progress of the groundnuts scheme. There will be no disagreement in any part of the Committee that this great scheme, as the Minister so rightly described it, ought not to be made a matter of party squabbling. It should not be, but that does not relieve His Majesty's Opposition from the duty of insisting upon accuracy and of examining it closely. It is very difficult in the course of a long speech to get the figures accurately, and I may be incorrect, in which case I apologise in advance to the right hon. Gentleman. I understood him to say that whereas the figures upon which the financial basis of the scheme was constructed were that we should originally buy these groundnuts at £30 a ton, which would be reduced
  884
  after a period of years to £20 a ton; we are now having to pay £65 to £70; a ton. That does not tally with the figures in the latest Trade and Navigation Returns, which show that we are paying at present £37 a ton for groundnuts.
  Mr. Strachey: May I explain? We are paying for certain marginal quantities in India at £65 to £70, and the equivalent in the Argentine. As I said in my speech, our main source of groundnuts is Nigeria, at £41 a ton. The figure has gone up from £37 to £41, and I took £41 as the probable price which we should pay for the East African groundnuts when they become available.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. That clears up the point. The figure which I have seen of £37 a ton has been increased since the latest returns to £41 a ton. It was very gratifying to hear the tribute from a distinguished French source to the benefit the children have derived from the wise provisions of the National Government. All must have been glad to hear that. However, we must all have felt a certain amount of sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman in that part of his speech in which he addressed himself to the question of food subsidies. That part of his speech seemed to me to be clearly intended for the ears of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It must have been a source of disappointment that neither the Chancellor nor the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was present on the Front Bench when he was doing that bit of special pleading.
  If we were gratified to hear certain parts of the Minister's speech, I am sure the Committee were disappointed, and the country will be disappointed, to learn that the Minister has been unable today to make any announcement about the end of bread rationing. If he is really anxious, as he said he was in the House on 10th May, to de-ration bread at the earliest possible moment, I should be greatly obliged if he would give me an answer to four questions. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could give the answers when she comes to reply at the end of the Debate.
  First, is it a fact that at the end of March we had over three months' stock of wheat and wheat equivalent in this country? Secondly, is it a fact that the

  885
  United States Department of Agriculture has estimated that the bread grain crop in Europe is likely to total 54 million tons this year as compared with 40 million tons last year? Thirdly, is it a fact that the carry-over of the four main exporting countries at the end of this month is expected to be about 6.6 million tons as compared with 3.8 million tons on 31st July, 1947? Fourthly, is it a fact that there is every prospect of bountiful wheat harvests? In view of the answers to those questions, why does the Minister continue to delay making the long-awaited announcement?
  When bread rationing was first introduced we were led to suppose that it would not last long. It has lasted for two years. The Minister estimated that it would save from 5 to 10 per cent.; the most that it has been claimed to save is 3 per cent.; and from the Monthly Digest of Statistics it appears that the saving has, in fact, only been 1.5 per cent., part of which is undoubtedly due to the smaller loaf. The system of bread rationing which has been adopted is a bad one. I do not think anybody disputes that. There is no fixed or scaled allocation of flour to the bakers, who have been able to buy what they have wanted. When temporary rationing was first mooted in 1946, the bakers said that they could save at least 5 per cent. without the bother or expense of rationing the consumers. At the Minister's request they made a 5 per cent. saving over a period of six weeks in the Spring of 1947 in order to meet a temporary shortage in supplies. This was exactly the method which the bakers themselves had suggested and which the Minister rejected. The scheme has required the employment of about 2,000 officials to administer it, at the cost to the taxpayer of £350,000 a year.
  Whether the Minister ends bread rationing soon, as we all hope he will, or whether he does not, most of us would agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) that he ought to reduce the extraction rate at the earliest possible moment. I am told that if the extraction rate is reduced by only 2½ per cent. not only would the loaf be improved but there would be about 130,000 tons more milling offal a year for animal feedingstuffs, which is more than we imported during the whole of 1947.
  886
  With other of my hon. Friends, I am greatly concerned about the animal feedingstuffs position. Before the war we produced 1,100,000 tons of meat at home, and we carried 60 million head of poultry. We fed that livestock population upon what we grew at home, plus 8½ million tons of imported feedingstuffs. Today we are producing only 700,000 tons of meat, and our fowl population has declined by 25 per cent. Under the compulsion of war and subsequent pressure, we have increased our home production of coarse grains fed to stock, but our imports of feedingstuffs have fallen to 2.2 million tons, which is a drop of nearly 25 per cent. When a year ago we were faced with the dollar crisis, the Prime Minister said:
  "The maximum supply of feedingstuffs must be obtained. … We must get our production of beef, bacon and eggs expanded rapidly."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th August, 1947; Vol. 441 C. 1498.]
  On the other hand, the Lord President of the Council, in addressing the representatives of the agricultural executive committees on 31st August, said:
  "Large increases"—of feedingstuffs—"must come from imports and even scarce dollars will be spent on all that is obtainable since this operation must lead to ultimate dollar saving."
  What do we find has happened in practice? First, there was the shock of the admission of the Minister of Agriculture in the House on 25th March, that it would be impossible to increase the feedingstuffs ration in the period which began on 1st May last, and secondly the grave doubts about the Minister's own intentions, doubts which I am bound to say have been intensified today by his statement that coarse grains are very expensive imports indeed. Of course, they are very expensive imports, but may I remind him again of what the Lord President of the Council said:
  "Even scarce dollars will be spent on all that is obtainable, since this operation must lead to ultimate dollar saving."
  Has the Minister bought all the maize he can from the Argentine? On 11th March he said:
  "We cannot monopolise the export of maize from the Argentine."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1948; Vol. 448, c. 1479.]
  But no one said that we should. The Argentine surplus maize crop this year, including the carry-over of last year, is likely to be 5½ million tons. If we imported less than 3 million tons of maize

  887
  in 1939 from that source, there is not even a remote possibility of monopolising the Argentine output, even if we wanted to do so. The Minister reminded the House that under the Andes Agreement we were obtaining one million tons, but if we could double that figure we could give everyone in Britain an extra egg and an extra 1½ ounces of bacon for every week in the year. I hope the Minister will assure the Committee that it is still the Government's intention that we shall acquire all the feedingstuffs that are obtainable.
  I will now deal briefly with two aspects of the right hon. Gentleman's administration which I think have been defective. The first is in regard to lost ration books. I think this is one of the means by which food is getting on to the black market, and it is a source of supply which the Minister could stop if he would give his attention to it. In the year 1945–46 there were 673,000 ration books reported lost. Last year the figure was 932,000. In reply to a question I put on 3rd May, the Parliamentary Secretary said that she was satisfied that there was no evidence of a black market leakage. If a dishonest person wants to obtain a second ration book, what has he to do?
  First, he has to go to the food office and tell them he has lost his ration book. His particulars are taken, and he is told to report the loss to the police, which he does. He is then given form R.B.12 which enables him to obtain rations for a week. He can obtain a fresh R.B.12 for each of four weeks. In the meantime he can draw his rations from his retailers on the ration book he says he has not got, and he can go to other retailers with his R.B.12. I have not done this myself, but it can be done. After four weeks he gets a book which is marked "duplicate," but no attempt is made to inform the retailers of the reported loss, and so there is nothing to prevent the person from continuing to make his purchases with his normal ration book, and going to other retailers with his R.B.12 document to draw a second lot of rations. When he gets his duplicate ration book he can transfer his tea and personal points for the remainder of the 12-month period. This can easily be stopped if the names and addresses of the retailers are put on the R.B.12 document. That information
  888
  is in the possession of the food office, and I do not see why this should not be done.
  My second point is in regard to the purchases of swedes by the Minister in the early part of this year. Earlier this year the Minister, through the Fresh Fruit and Vegetables Department, instructed buyers to buy about 100,000 tons of swedes, the intention being to build up a reserve as an insurance against a shortage of potatoes in the Spring. There was no difficulty about this whatever, since the prices offered varied from £5 10s. a ton in the case of Scotland to £7 and are in the case of England. On the Minister's instructions most of these swedes instead of being left in the ground, were bagged in potato sacks provided by the Ministry.
  In March the Ministry suddenly changed their mind, and ultimately the farmers were paid £2 10s. to £3 a ton to feed their own swedes to their own stock. On a conservative estimate this must have cost the country not less than £400,000, and probably £500,000. The Parliamentary Secretary, on 17th March, said that she would be happy to give the figures when all the transactions were completed, and I hope that she will be able to do so now. I do not quarrel with the principle of insurance, but my criticism is, firstly, that it was the experience of 1914–18 that swedes are no substitute for potatoes; secondly that this advice was pressed by the trade, but the Minister refused to accept it; thirdly that the prices given were, in any case, far too high.
  My main criticism, however, against the right hon. Gentleman and his Ministry does not lie in these administrative points. The real measure of the Government's failure is that, in spite of American aid—and the Government themselves admit that without it we would be far worse off today—rations have been reduced all round. Since the Government came into power the cheese ration has been halved; bacon has been cut by one-third; rations of meat, sugar, tea, chocolate and sweets have all been reduced, and bread has been rationed for the first time in our history. Moreover, points values have, on balance, been considerably upgraded, and 48 points are needed today to buy what could have been bought with 20 points in 1945. Small wonder that the effect on the

  889
  thoughtful housewife who remembers these things, and who looks back to the prudent administration of that great Food Minister, Lord Woolton, can be summed up in the words of the old Scots song, "Will ye no' come back again?"
  5.42 p.m.
  Mr. Royle: We on this side of the Committee are very glad to have an opportunity to take part in this Debate today, if it is only because we realise the weakness of the Opposition's case. In the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid), and again in the speech of the hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley), we have heard the paucity of the Conservative case against the Government on the food front. We have listened to trivialities and points of detail when we ought to have been listening to more important questions. A Debate on food at this time must, of necessity, range over a very wide field, and its various aspects must be taken into consideration. That being so, perhaps the hon. Member for West Aberdeen will allow me to deal with some of the points he made as I make my speech, rather than deal with them now, item by item.
  I was very disappointed that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hillhead did not deal in any way with the question of the food shortage in Europe. Those of us who read the speech made the other day in another place by Viscount Bruce of Melbourne, and the speeches of others who followed him, and who have read the Report of the Food and Agricultural Organisation of U.N.O. must be very concerned about the food situation in the world as a whole. While it is true that with the prospect of a good harvest in most parts of the world the outlook is better than for some time past, the fact remains that the world food situation is very grim indeed. I want to say—and it needs some courage to say it—that most of our people know very little about the world food position, and how other nations are living. Small wonder that the people of the Middle West of the United States have very little appreciation of our sacrifices and problems when we remember what little knowledge there is in our own land of the trials and tribulations which many European and Asiatic nations are experiencing today. Visits to
  890
  countries as near to our own as Germany and Austria make one almost ashamed to share in the comparative food luxury of our own land.
  What is the position in this country? It is that no one is short of food. The spending capacity of our people is so much greater than prewar that they can purchase an adequate supply of food which is always there for the purchasing. I remember, from my own business experience, that the average amount spent per person on meat in my constituency in 1938, was 7d. a week. That was in the days of plenty and abundance in the world. Today, they purchase more than that and, in addition, obtain meals in canteens, civic restaurants, and the like. With very few exceptions, every section of the community is in a position to obtain a meal every day, in addition to the normal ration. With all sincerity, I suggest that in spite of some of our present day difficulties, which cannot be denied, we should give much more thought to other countries which are not so well placed as our own. I would like to express my regret that the work of the Food and Agricultural Organisation of U.N.O., and its recent indefatigable director, has not met with more success and the encouragement it deserves. As the days go by I hope we shall pay more attention to the work of that Organisation.
  A lot has been said about overseas and colonial development. Much criticism has been levelled against the Ministry's procurement policy, but immediate results are not possible because of the lack of foresight in the past. For generations, the keynote of our colonial policy—and I am sorry to say it—was exploitation. When the attitude of overseas trading companies softened in that respect, between the wars, the Government of the day did not replace that exploitation by Governmental development of our Colonial areas. We are now embarking on a policy which should have been introduced many years ago. If that had been done the world and this country would have been in a much better food position than they are today. The other night certain Members opposite went into the Division Lobby to vote against the E.R.P. proposals because of their concern about Dominion and Colonial interests. Had a vestige of the present

  891
  Imperial policy been apparent in the inter-war years there would be a very different food story to tell today. In the overseas policy of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food and my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary there lies tremendous hope in our long-term supply.
  I am not going to deal at any great length with home production. There are hon. Members on both sides of the Committee better able to deal with that than I am, because of their great knowledge of the problem, but I would express the view that our agricultural community in Britain can produce at least 40 per cent. more of our needs than was produced in the prewar years. The policy of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture is laying down the right foundation for the development of our home production. I would express concern—and I hope my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us something about this matter when she comes to reply—that in these days when we should be building up a cattle population in this country, so many very good calves are being slaughtered for the ration and for meat manufacturers. I am wondering if we are not placing a little too much emphasis on milk production, and if we should not be placing restrictions on the number of calves slaughtered so as to build up our beef cattle population in the future. It takes three years to feed a bullock and make it ready for beef. It is time we were taking a long view of this matter now.
  So I come to the question of procurement and distribution. Since the announcement made in 1945 that the Ministry of Food was to become a permanent part of the structure of the Government it has received more attention than ever it received in the war years. During the war the question of procurement was much easier than it is today. The hon. Member for West Aberdeen referred to the so-called palmy days of Lord Woolton at the Ministry of Food, and in doing so he has conveniently forgotten quite a number of things. Let me say in passing that when hon. Members opposite speak about the period of Lord Woolton at the Ministry of Food they pay very scant courtesy to their right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and
  892
  Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison), whom I am glad to see on the Front Bench at the moment. Because I had some association with the Ministry of Food in a very humble capacity in those days, I remember, if they forget, that it was he who was at the head of the Ministry when the plans for our great control schemes were laid down and when the planning of this great control enterprise took place. It was under him that the foundations of our wartime equitable distribution were laid. I would remind hon. Members opposite of this, because they are not being very fair to their right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester when they constantly ram down the throats of hon. Members of this Committee the name of Lord Woolton.
  Other things are also forgotten, one of which is that Lend-Lease came very quickly to Lord Woolton's aid. Added to that it must be remembered that we had no responsibility for the continent of Europe, which was under the heel of the Nazis. In the main our responsibility in those days was to feed our own people with our own produce, the help of the United States of America and our own Dominions. Almost at the moment when this Government took office Lend-Lease facilities were withdrawn. I hope it is within the recollection of hon. Members what was the immediate reaction of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on the day on which the Prime Minister announced that Lend-Lease was to cease. His immediate reaction was, "Have these people forgotten that we held the fort alone in 1940?" We have had different expressions of opinion from hon. Members opposite since then. In 1945 this Government had to face the immediate problem of procurement along with the dollar shortage. I know that this is wrapped up in the question of the balance of payments and I do not want to develop that in this Debate.
  I want to ask one or two questions, the first of which is of a detailed character and arises, I must confess, out of my interest in the meat industry. A recent announcement said that a cut of 32 million lbs. had been made in the meat contract with Canada and that it was being replaced with bacon. This is not a very large reduction, but I wonder if the exchange of commodity is wise, in view of

  893
  the signs that our pig production is increasing whilst there are no similar signs with regard to our cattle.
  I also want to say a few things about distribution. I apologise for keeping the Committee so long but there are still some points I want to make. If any criticism creeps in I hope it will be largely constructive. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Food paid tribute to the people who stand behind the counters of our food offices. In that regard I would ask the Committee to pause in meditation at this time for the retail butcher. He is the most harassed retailer in the land today. There is no other hon. Member in the Committee to speak for him so I have to do it. For the past two weeks the retail butcher has been completing a shilling ration for his customers out of 6d. worth of corned beef taken from 6 lb. tins, which rarely produce 6 lb. weight of meat, and 6d. worth of a miscellaneous collection of Danish cow beef, fat Argentine quarters, a mixed bag of South American and Dominion mutton and lamb and 14 cwt. bullocks produced by enthusiastic British farmers, who have crammed on every ounce to earn the subsidy. The Committee can take it from me that it is a lovely experience getting 10d. rations out of 14 cwt. beasts. However, that is in passing, but, after all, it is a serious matter.
  I want to ask my right hon. Friend if he will give the Committee some news about two inquiries which are going on. The first is the Fruit and Vegetable Prices Inquiry presided over by my hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food. The time occupied by this inquiry is bringing it into line with a Royal Commission and it is becoming a rival to a Royal Commission in the length of time it is taking. We are experiencing a wonderful soft fruit season, but the prices are atrocious. Strawberries were as high as 3s. 6d. a lb. last week, black and red currants are far too dear in proportion to what the growers are receiving, and the same can be said of vegetables. When do we get the report?
  Secondly, I should like to ask about the Bodinnar Report. Some months ago I ventured to raise on the Adjournment the question of the black market in food animals. In all modesty I have reason to believe that the Debate
  894
  started discussions which resulted in the Bodinnar Committee being set up. It consisted of three men of wide knowledge and experience. For weeks they heard evidence from organisations and from expert individuals. In due course, the committee reported, now many moons ago. So far we have no knowledge of what it reported, but we know that self-suppliers of pigs were compelled to give longer notice of slaughter.
  I do not believe that that is all that the Bodinnar Committee reported. In addition to questions concerning cattle and pigs there are questions of rabbits and poultry. Christmas time is not a great way off. We shall be faced with the same difficulties of distribution that we had last Christmas in those items, unless something is done. There is a rumour going round that it has been decided that the committee's recommendations are impracticable. Will the Minister say whether those rumours are true? If they are not, when will the report be issued? If they are, must we assume that the officials of the Ministry have greater knowledge than the united knowledge of the members of that committee and of the people who gave evidence before it? Such an assumption is absolutely fantastic.
  That brings me to my conclusion. The time has come when the terrible waste in distribution costs must be brought down. The large profits which wholesalers are getting and the rake-offs which are still being paid have to cease. During the war we were so anxious to get food to the tables of the people at any price that we did not concern ourselves about distribution costs. The already wasteful distribution costs of prewar years gave way to more expensive ones still. The pre-war and present control positions have to be examined, and very soon, I believe. The Lucas Report should be got down to at once, to see whether it provides a solution. At the moment, I think it is a bit like the curate's egg, but I believe it can be made the basis of a much better system of distribution. I hope that we shall soon hear that these matters are being taken into account.
  In addition to dollar shortage and supply shortage, that which is available is costing too much. Subsidies will have to continue, I know, but we can reduce those subsidies and reduce the cost of food by tackling the distribution question at the

  895
  earliest possible moment. I know that the greatest headache of my right hon. Friend has been procurement, but I beg that some attention should be given to the problem of distribution. This House of Commons discusses many important problems but none, I suggest, is of more importance than the adequate and reasonably-priced supply of food.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: I had hoped and certainly wished that the Debate would take quite a different course from that which it has taken. The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) began his speech upon the wider scope that I hoped the Debate would have taken but, having just mentioned it in his opening, he drifted away to details. I often think that we spend far too much time discussing and debating matters and subjects which, while they are of some importance, frequently are of only personal, local, or even temporary interest. They are hotly debated at the time and feelings are aroused, and then the matter is quickly forgotten.
  Many of those matters are trivial in comparison with the great questions and problems upon the solution of which not only our present but our future may depend, upon which our mode and even our standard of life may depend, and upon which, indeed, civilisation may depend. We spend far too little time trying to understand such questions and debating them, and in thinking out means of solving them. The passionate desire of every man and woman throughout the world is for peace, but the greatest enemy of peace, taking "peace" in its widest sense, is hunger. Hunger and penury drive men to follow the methods of the jungle. Hunger, as we know, brings disease, discontent and despair, which lead to quarrels, revolutions, and ultimately to war.
  Men and women will even sell their liberties and abandon the democratic way of life in a time of hunger and penury, if someone will offer to feed them, even though the promise is empty and false. We are prepared and determined to use force to defend ourselves against aggression, for example, from Communism. It will not be force that will ultimately conquer it but plenty—plenty of food for each and all wherever they may be to provide
  896
  a fuller and a better life. These subjects, Peace, Plenty and Prosperity, are inextricably intermixed and each depends upon the other. So it is that today we are debating a major subject. I only wish that the Minister himself had devoted far more time than he did to the broader aspects of the question.
  One other deep disappointment was the Minister's dismissal of the figures and statements that have been brought before the world by the Food and Agriculture Organisation, and his far too complacent attitude. Perhaps I might recall what he said, because I shall want to come back to it. Here are the actual words which he used:
  "I really do not think there is any necessary conflict between the two views, because Sir John Orr is assuming that the vast populations of Asia, China and India and the like must be brought up, for the first time in human history, to a satisfactory level of nutrition."
  May I pause there? Those are the words of the Minister. Why should they not be brought up to a satisfactory state of nutrition? Why should not the people of Asia—400 million—and of India—500 million and 100 million increase in 30 years—not have decent nutrition?
  Mr. Daines: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say—
  Mr. Davies: Perhaps I might finish the quotation, because I have the words of the right hon. Gentleman. He went on:
  "That is something which we certainly devoutly pray for, and it would be the most wonderful advance in human history, but it is something outside altogether the powers and scope of anybody speaking for the British Government."
  Is it? I thought that we were a party to the Food and Agriculture Organisation and that, therefore, we should take not only a part in it but a leading part, in pressing forward the work and the policy of that organisation.
  "It is something which can only be done by those peoples themselves. It is not merely what we in this country can do for ourselves. We are dependent upon others throughout the world. I am speaking only of the world food situation at the current level of demand. If we gave everyone in China and India adequate nutrition, then everyone would be desperately short of food for a very long time."
  What does he mean by that? Does it mean, therefore, that we do not do anything because we shall not be short? Or

  897
  does it mean an abandonment of the policy of the Food and Agriculture Organisation? Does the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Daines) now wish to ask me a question?
  Mr. Daines indicated dissent.
  Mr. Davies: So it is right that on an occasion such as this, we, who are so dependent upon the world position, seeing that we are still the greatest importers of food of any nation in the world, should take cognisance of the world food situation. For well over a century we have been dependent upon overseas countries for a large part of our food. Before the war we were importing even as much as two-thirds of the food that we required and consumed in this country. During the war, of course, we materially increased our home production; but even then, we were not able, and even today we are not able, with our home produce to feed more than roughly half the population. Therefore, in considering our own position, we must take account of the world position—the world production and world consumption.
  Even before the cataclysm of the war the position in many areas of the world was appalling. I have already mentioned India and China, but if I might refer to them again, in passing, I would point out that the population of India nearly 40 years ago was less by over 100 million than it is today; but the amount of cultivated land—not necessarily cultivatable land—has scarcely increased in the whole of that time. So the position in many areas of the world was appalling, and the suffering was persistent and intense. Out of a population, so it is estimated, of over 2,000 million in 1938, only some 695 million were getting adequate supplies of food, which meant that something in the neighbourhood of 1,400 million, and certainly well over 1,000 million, were being inadequately fed.
  Then came the world war, bringing with it destruction, devastation, dislocation and maldistribution. I take just a few figures to illustrate the calamity brought about by the war. The Minister very rightly referred to the fats and oils situation, and quoted the words and comment made by my old friend Mr. Faure about its seriousness, and about the lack of knowledge and lack of understanding in this country, for a great many
  898
  small and niggling points would not have been raised had the seriousness of the position been known. The prewar world exports of oils and fats were 6 million tons; the estimates for this year are only 4 million tons—a fall of one-third in the exportable fats and oils of the world. At present the exportable quantity of oil cakes and feedingstuffs, which have been so often mentioned on both sides of the Committee, is only roughly 25 per cent. of what it was prewar. Indications are that the total world exports of meat will not exceed 4,000,000 lb. as compared with 4,600,000 lb. in 1947, so that even in the last year there has been a drop in the meat exported.
  Before the war, continental Europe was nearly self-supporting, producing all the meat it required, more than the dairy produce and eggs it required, and being only 10 per cent. short of its grain requirements; but it needed to import—as indeed it did—some 30 per cent. of its oil seeds requirements. That was in the days before the "Iron Curtain" came down, for Western Europe depended for a great deal of its grain upon Eastern Europe, from which it imported some 5 million tons.
  Very rightly the hon. Member for West Salford mentioned, although only in passing, the condition of Europe. It is as well that we should realise what has happened. During the war Western Europe lost 7 per cent. of its sheep, 40 per cent. of its pigs, 20 per cent. of its poultry, 36 per cent. of its meat, 27 per cent. of its milk, 30 per cent. of its butter, and 37 per cent. of its eggs. Is it any wonder, therefore, that the people there are suffering? In 1945–46 cereals were 33 per cent. below the 1934–38 average; sugar was 30 per cent. below, and potatoes 25 per cent. below.
  Then again, take wheat. And while I am mentioning wheat, I do deeply regret that the wheat agreement has not met with that response which we expected it might have from the Government of the United States; and now we must regard that as completely fallen to the ground. The 1947 wheat was 7 million tons less than the low output of even 1946. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the grain and wheat prospects for the coming year and especially in the Northern countries; but it is quite unwise to rely upon those estimates until that corn has been garnered in. Too often have we seen, even in this country, that we have been able to

  899
  grow the corn but have been unable to harvest it. Taking even 1947, the figure was only 26 million tons instead of the pre-war output of 42 million tons. That was the position in Western Europe, with millions getting far less than was required to keep them in health and strength, when Mr. Marshall's wonderful offer brought the free European nations together.
  Now I want to consider the position apart from the war devastation. In addition to the devastation and dislocation caused by the war, other factors have to be taken into account. First and foremost—and only just touched on by the right hon. Gentleman and others—is the great and continued rapid increase in the population of the world: 150 million more people in the world than there were in 1938. The world population is increasing annually now at the rate of 20 to 25 million. The increase that is expected between 1938 and 1951—I am taking that year because it was taken by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleague the Minister of Agriculture as the year at which agriculture should aim at increasing our food production in this country by 100 million tons—is between 200 million and 250 million. Secondly, there is everywhere—and rightly everywhere—an increasing demand for a better standard of living, and therefore a greater demand for food per caput. Thirdly, the result is that countries which hitherto have been able to export food now require their own produce for their own use for their own people. All the South American countries, with the one exception of Argentina, have ceased to export, and even when we look at the Argentine we find that there—
  Mr. Strachey: I should like to correct that statement. I am glad to say that Brazil, Uruguay, and many other countries are exporting large quantities.
  Mr. Davies: But those exports from Brazil and so on are, in the main, coffee and things of that kind. So far as grain is concerned, our main supplier was the Argentine, and there has been a decrease of something like 15 per cent. in the men employed in agriculture and an increase of about 10 per cent. in the men employed in industries other than agriculture. What does that mean? That these countries, which hitherto have been in the main food producers and whose people have confined themselves largely
  900
  to raising food, are now turning their attention to industries other than agriculture. This has indeed a double effect, in so far as while it may be that they will be producing less food, their population will be growing and they will be needing it for themselves; they will also, because they are turning their attention to manufacturing their own machinery, require less of our manufactured goods than hitherto they were taking.
  Fourthly, man in the last 70 or 80 years has been extraordinarily and criminally wasteful of the soil. Thousands of square miles of productive soil have now become deserts. It is estimated that in the United States of America alone three million tons of fertile topsoil are lost every year and, according to Sir John Boyd Orr, it takes nature 500 years to create one inch of productive soil.
  Mr. Gallacher: Will the right hon. and learned Member excuse me? Does not that waste of the soil apply in general to industry? It applies to mining and other industries where the incentive is only profit and there is no concern for the care of the land.
  Mr. Davies: No, it was not really that; I think it was merely lack of knowledge and they did not realise what was happening. In draining the land, cutting down trees and so on, they really thought they were adding to the wealth of the world at that time. It was really lack of knowledge, both in Africa and the United States.
  The fifth point is that while the food markets available to us are getting fewer, it becomes yearly more difficult for us to find markets for our manufactured goods with which we bought, and still buy, food, because each country itself is entering the industrial field and endeavouring to supply its own needs, while, of course, we realise that the competition from the United States of America in the export market is becoming keener and fiercer every day. Finally on that, our own population will have grown from 47,760,000 in 1939 to over 50 million by the end of this year.
  I thought it was only right to draw attention to these matters, though I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would have done so. I am not alone in referring to this grave situation, as it was rightly called by the hon. Member for

  901
  West Salford. Here are a few phrases that have been used by the right hon. Gentleman's colleague, the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Agriculture, Lord Huntingdon;
  "The prospect is very black indeed."
  Another phrase is:
  "I myself would have difficulty in finding a strong enough black paint on my palette to paint a picture of the world situation today."
  Why, then, does the right hon. Gentleman brush on one side the Report of the Food and Agriculture Organisation? His colleague's next phrase is this:
  "The population is increasing. We are failing to get productivity up; erosion is going on and soil is going out of use. A visitor from Mars might well be excused if he thought this a crazy world."
  Then, when I turn to this report, I find this passage in the introduction:
  "While there is some improvement"—
  which was what the right hon. Gentleman was referring to—
  "in the prospect for the coming harvest,"—
  not yet garnered—
  "there has been no fundamental change."
  Then the report goes on, very rightly:
  "Adverse weather can completely wipe out the potential gains. Pre-war levels of production and of consumption not yet regained in war-devastated countries."
  There they call particular attention to its effects on children and young people—
  "Even if production did reach pre-war levels, it would mean a reduction for consumption per caput owing to increase in population … Unless action is taken to bring about the large and rapid expansion of food production, the level of nutrition and health of the peoples of the world is likely to decline, even below the standards achieved before the war."
  That, very rightly, is described by the right hon. Gentleman's colleague as a dark picture for which he could not find a paint dark enough.
  What is to be done? The first thing is to bring these stark facts to the knowledge of the people. Nothing is ever gained by hiding facts, and much is won when we are all conscious of what is confronting us. The second thing required is early and vigorous action by the Government, and encouragement of such action being taken by other Governments. When an appeal was made to the farmers last year the reply given on their behalf, quite rightly,
  902
  was, "We will do our best to raise another £100 million worth of food in this country, and we promise we can do it, on one condition: that you give us the tools." That is a matter for which the Government is to this extent responsible, that it ought to do its utmost to provide machinery of all kinds, fertilisers of all kinds, animal food, transport, and methods and organisations for the destruction of pests, to which this report calls serious attention.
  The third thing is to bring more land into cultivation. In the past, as we know, this has been the method employed to close the gap between production of food and what is needed by the people. During and immediately after the last war a great new acreage was brought into existence in the very countries upon which we depend for our food. In four of them alone—the United States, Canada, Australia, and Argentina—between 1910 and 1930 110 million square miles more land was brought under cultivation for the production of food. That, if I may give a comparison, is an acreage equal to the whole of the British Isles plus the total acreage of England. However the serious thing is—and again attention is called to this in the report—no similar increase has occurred after World War II, and that is the poignant comment on this and on other Governments. Although opportunities still exist, e.g., in Africa and South America, the Amazon area, for bringing fresh land into cultivation, these possibilities must take time because they can only be gradually realised.
  I was glad to hear what the right hon. Gentleman had to say about the progress of the groundnuts scheme in Africa but, again, even if that is carried to full fruition—and the right hon. Gentleman rightly said that if it reaches its full mark by 1952 it will be the first time that a schedule has been carried out according to plan—even then, all that we shall be getting from 3 million acres will be 600,000 tons. That is by 1952, while all the time the world population will be increasing, as will the demand for fats and oils. Possibly, also, by that time there will be a reduction in the whale oil now produced in the Antarctic. We must remember that whales were once plentiful in the Arctic, but were killed off. As the hon. Lady knows, an agreement must be carefully worked out between all the whalers and responsible

  903
  governments to see that what I might call whale production of oil is not again destroyed.
  The Food and Agriculture Report goes on to say:
  "In the meantime"—
  while we are waiting—
  "the gap between the food supply and demand must be met largely through increased yields rather than increased acreage."
  That is certainly true of this country. People always seem to forget that the purpose of agriculture is the raising of food. That is why I suggested, at the beginning of the war in 1939, that the Minister of Food should be in the main responsible and that the Minister of Agriculture should be a sort of factory manager under him. [Laughter.] It was absolutely right and necessary. The hon. Lady laughs but she—her Department—are responsible for feeding the people.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill): Certainly.
  Mr. Davies: Therefore, they should know what can and should be produced in this country, so that they may make their contracts abroad in order to know what may be brought into this country.
  On the production side, the farmer is struggling with very great difficulties—shortage of labour, fertilisers, animal and poultry foods and machinery of all kinds. They have done splendidly under great difficulties. They responded very quickly to the call for £100 millions more production. What is more, they are already achieving it and hope to achieve 20 to 25 per cent. extra. Even if that is achieved it will not be enough. Our position as exporters of manufactured articles is becoming and will become more difficult. This is not a temporary situation. Our position as importers of food, as compared with exporters of machinery, will become more and more difficult for the reasons I have given.
  Therefore, we must raise more food at home. We have the finest soil and, although we do not think so and scarcely believe it in this present July, we have the finest climate for the production of food. We have the finest yields per acre, second to none, and the finest agriculturists, also second to none; but we have a grievous shortage of rural workers and, what is
  904
  more, a shortage of proper amenities for them. We can and should quickly improve those amenities. We are short of fertilisers and we could make far better use of what we have already got—for example, lime—than we are doing. But, above all, we want a bolder policy.
  My prophecy is that the need of this country which, through necessity, we shall achieve—we need it and it will come in our time is a revolution in our methods of farming and food production. We must go in for far more intensive cultivation and produce more food for direct human consumption, and not spend our best land upon indirectly feeding the humans through the stomach of a bullock. He is not a good converter, neither is he a very good economic converter.
  Mr. Dye: Would the right hon. and learned Member like to eat grass?
  Mr. Davies: We must use our best land for producing more food for the direct use of the people than we are doing, otherwise how can the 50 million people of this country be fed if we cannot buy from abroad?
  Mr. Dye: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman like to come into the Eastern Counties and see where that has been done for the last ten years?
  Mr. Davies: Certainly, but we must do it on vast areas and not merely on the small areas on which it has been done. I should like to deal with this question much more fully on some other occasion, and I certainly propose to do so, because I regard this question of food as the most serious of all and affecting everybody in this country. I want the Government to give to the F.A.O. the programme which is demanded and which I am told is about ready. I do not know whether the hon. Lady can say whether it has been already prepared and sent; if it has, I want it to be followed up vigorously and the recommendations rapidly carried out.
  That great organisation has now passed through its teething or formative stage; although of necessity it has no executive power, it is not only a great collector of information, but is capable of being a great policy-maker for all the nations of the world. That is where we can be of real assistance, not only in

  905
  helping with information and backing it for all we are worth, but, inasmuch as we are so dependent upon more food production and what can be spared for us, we ought to be taking the leadership in all the councils of that great institution, the Food and Agricultural Organisation.
  6.38 p.m.
  Sir David Robertson: I confess to a feeling of relief a moment or two ago when the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said he intended to leave some of his speech to another occasion. I will not attempt to follow him today because we are discussing Estimates for feeding the British people and I am more concerned about the difficulties of the Salford butcher in cutting a 10d. ration from a 14 cwt. bullock than I am about the great humanitarian problems his concern for which, of course, reflect the greatest credit on the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Mr. C. Davies: I was raising that aspect to show what our position would be unless we get food from other parts of the world and intensify production here. I fail to understand how the hon. Gentleman's comment arises.
  Sir D. Robertson: The Committee is under no illusions about what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said and the extent to which he wishes to feed the world. We all applaud his views. There should certainly be another occasion for discussion and no one will be happier than I to join in the Debate. Today, however, is not the proper time.
  The Minister of Food today was not in his happiest vein. I thought his whole speech was pitched in a minor key and hon. Members behind who faithfully support him had few reasons to cheer. They did applaud him, however, on three occasions—first, when he referred to attending his women's meeting in bonnie Dundee, when he spoke of "fair shares for all" and was highly applauded. I wonder whether hon. Members opposite think they are the only Members who want fair shares for all. The hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) paid tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison), who was the first Minister of Food, and the Committee appreciated that. But, for some years before his time,
  906
  the Conservative Government, under Mr. Chamberlain, decided on the principle of fair shares for all when they set up the Food Plans Department under the Board of Trade, to prepare the way for the Ministry of Food. I hope there is no illusion in the minds of hon. Members opposite, or of the public, that the Conservative Party do not want fair shares for all, because we do; we want that as fervently as anyone.
  I noticed that the other points on which the right hon. Gentleman was cheered were when he read out utterances made by other people, but not his own. The first was a letter on the well-being of children. I am sure the Committee is gratified to learn that the children are so well, in spite of the severity of rationing. The other had to do with—[An HON. MEMBER: "Never mind."] I am very sorry, but my notes are not as copious as they might have been.
  The Minister made some reference to bread rationing, in response to the devastating speech of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid). The Minister apparently had no reply other than that he hoped to get rid of bread rationing very shortly, and that no one would be more pleased than himself. I am sorry the Minister is not here, but of course he has to eat. Bread rationing is at an end for all practical purposes. It is only an illusion for him or other Members of the Government to imagine that it exists any more than on paper and in a law which is totally disregarded by millions of otherwise law-abiding people. I always resented the burden on the already overburdened housewives. It was incapable of enforcement and incapable of operation. There never has been any reconciliation between B.U.s surrendered by the people and the flour which the baker draws from the flour miller. The whole scheme has been a gigantic bluff, and the great British public have found it out. That is why bread rationing is at an end. The people can get all the bread they require and are willing to pay for.
  The Minister made some inaccurate remarks about snoek. He accused the party on this side of the Committee of being almost derisory about this great Empire product. The fact is that concern was aroused on this side over the notorious

  907
  "Novelist" shipment. Information reached Eastcheap, the centre of the canned goods trade here, and reached me, that this cargo contained some good packs, put up by reputable packers, and some very bad packs put up by unscrupulous packers. Like all canned fish, snoek has to be packed quickly after capture and the snoek of which my right hon. Friends complained had been caught eight days before it got to the canners and was heavily pickled. The allegations against these unscrupulous packers of having sent defective goods were entirely true.
  I must applaud the action of the Government in the rigorous way in which they went through the "Novelist" shipment as with a toothpick, and they found that the reports were entirely true. That was where our criticism arose. The Government paid in full for those defective packs. I believe they subsequently made a claim, although the right hon. Gentleman, probably unwittingly, misled the Committee by saying that they had not the intention of paying in full for these defective parcels; but the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary wrote to me saying that that had been done. People who deal in food as these unscrupulous charlatans did, should have been punished by their goods being rejected and condemned. Because of the hunger of this country, the Minister found a use for the food through the foodpaste manufacturers. But food that is not good enough to eat in a canned state, is not good enough to eat in a transformed state. The only place for that food is on the dump and the only way to stop such a thing happening again is not to pay or deal with unscrupulous packers in South Africa. The reputable canners in South Africa detest this as much as we do, because of the injury it does to the industry. Snoek is a good fish and if we can get good snoek, by all means let us have it. But the story did not reflect in any way on my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee.
  I wish to say a word about bulk buying. I take the view that it is justified where essential commodities are in short supply. I do not think there can be any other answer to that. Otherwise too many buyers would be chasing too few goods and prices would be bound to rise. But there is one aspect to which I feel bound
  908
  to call attention, and that is the danger of bulk buying being prolonged any longer than is absolutely necessary. We have had bulk buying now for more than 10 years and in all the importing industries experienced buyers are being sadly reduced, by the laws of nature. No young men are coming in to be trained, because there is no work for them to do. This country may face a very serious situation when the day comes for it to turn from bulk buying to individual buying again if we find there are not enough skilled and trained people to do the job.
  Take the meat trade, for example. That trade was disrupted in 1939 and because of the fear of bombs in the London area depots were established all round the perimeter. Similar things happened elsewhere and buyers and wholesalers were put on a care and maintenance basis. Wholesalers and importers were given a measure of profit to keep them in idleness, and that is where they remain. There is no new blood coming into the industry, and 10 years is a large slice out of an adult person's life. Bulk buying cannot go on for ever, and I hope the Government will give serious attention to this matter. As soon as they can, even if they have gradually to restore them, I hope we shall have prewar practices restored. Otherwise, we shall find ourselves with very few businesses capable of importing. This is positively alarming in the meat trade. I have many contacts in that trade and find that capable men in the industry are spending their time playing bowls or golf, and are remittance men. Yet I recall the day when they were skilled, efficient tradesmen at Smithfield and other markets.
  I wish to preface my remarks on the fishing industry by saying something I sometimes forget, that is, to pay tribute to the magnificent services that industry has rendered to Britain. Since the outbreak of the war, there has been an unlimited and unrationed supply of fish which has been a godsend to the people of this country. People can exist on 10d. worth of meat if they get enough fish. The industry has played a really great part.
  I feel that the Ministry of Food has failed lamentably to deal with herring gluts. I regard herring as the finest of all fish in the sea and it is simply deplorable that from time to time vessels have to tie up for lack of a market in this little country of ours. Why does the Ministry

  909
  not apply itself to the problem, and if the fishmongers cannot deal with these gluts, why not harness the grocery trade for the time being? The grocers are enterprising people and if an imaginative approach were made to the grocers' associations and a request were made to them, "Would your members give an order for a three-stone margarine box of herring whenever there is a glut?" gluts would disappear and people would get herring in a fresh state. Turn loose the Woolworths, the Co-ops, the Marks and Spencers and the little fellows up and down the country, and people will get the fish they urgently need, fish which is far better than snoek from South Africa and far better than the bulk of things which we eat. I urge the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary to give thought to that. Why not co-operate with the Herring Board, which is doing such a good job, work with them in developing the canning and freezing of British herring? There is tremendous scope for imaginative people, and I envy her the job.
  Mr. Maclay: I am most impressed by my hon. Friend's point about getting the grocers to handle herring. Might I suggest that some instruction on how to cook herring should be included, because well cooked they are the best fish in the world; badly cooked, they are not good.
  Mr. Collins: Does the hon. Member mean that grocers shall handle herring only when there is a glut—when nobody else wants them—because that is not a very sound business proposition, and I do not think that grocers would entertain it.
  Sir D. Robertson: In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Maclay), I would say that the Ministry of Food since the days of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison) has done a very good job right down to the present time in telling people how to cook herring. It is a simple job, and if herring are grilled they do not require cooking fat, which is most important.
  The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) has raised the hard-boiled business man's aspect of this matter. My reply would be that there are thousands of grocers dealing in hundreds of commodities:
  910
  what is one box of herring to them? They can sell them as they come without cleaning. The difficulty in the distribution of herring is that when gluts occur there are not enough people selling them to create the demand necessary to take up the available supply. I agree that on hard economic grounds there is no answer to what the hon. Member for Taunton says, but let us try it. Even if we fail, let us go down with colours flying. I think that 25 per cent. of the grocers would support such a plan.
  Mr. Edward Evans: Can the hon. Member tell us exactly when a glut will appear in the herring industry?
  Sir D. Robertson: I certainly cannot, but in these days of lightning communications and as the Government have substantial control over the wireless, would it not be an easy matter—Interruption]. Did someone say "Nonsense"? If the hon. Member wishes to intervene, I will give way.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: I was making the point that I deny the hon. Member's assertion that the Government have control of the wireless.
  Sir D. Robertson: I said that they have substantial control. I say that if 200 boats are at Fraserburgh, Yarmouth and Lowestoft heavily laden, the Government have sufficient control to arrange to break in on the wireless all over the country with an announcement, "The glut is here and tomorrow morning herring will be available all over the country." It does not need much imagination. I have had to sell fish for many years under much harder conditions.
  Mr. Mitchison: Would the hon. Member ask his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) what communications are like at the herring ports on the West Coast of Scotland?
  Sir D. Robertson: My hon. Friends seem to think that that question is not worth answering, and there is a good deal of truth in their view. I believe that the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) has some connection with Argyll, it may be by residence. I also have some connection with Argyll. I served with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders during the war, and I know the country there reasonably well. When

  911
  the hon. and learned Member was a child, herring caught in Loch Fyne were taken by fast steamer to Glasgow within a few hours of being caught. Even if one lived at Kintyre as he does, one could never get herring there—they all went on to Glasgow.
  I have to deal with one aspect of the fishing industry which is not so pleasant but it is just as important. I refer to the poor quality fish which is being landed from the distant waters—Iceland, Bear Island and the White Sea—day after day. It is causing great concern to the whole trade and today and in recent days the public have in large numbers been refusing to take any more of this stale Iceland and Bear Island cod fish which is coming in nearly a month old. The Minister of Food has turned a blind eye on this matter. The enforcement officers at the ports must have been instructed to exercise a much lower standard of inspection than prevailed before the war. It should come to an end. Every one in the trade is concerned about it. One of the difficulties is that trawler owners and men who bring in a good catch of fish frequently get no more for it than the men who bring in a much bigger catch of rubbish as a result of staying at sea much longer. Such catches make the maximum control price.
  I feel that the Minister should immediately start talks with the trade, if he has not already done so, and, if de-control is necessary, he should take that step so that the good fish will make what it is worth. Under those conditions bad fish would probably not sell at all. It is going out now under Ministry of Food allocation and a merchant has to take so much good and so much bad fish if he wants any at all. Though I see the difficulty that good fish may make a good deal of money, it would be better for that to happen than for this rubbish to make the high prices which it is now fetching. I believe that the trade would be receptive to any encouragement which the Minister gave. It is worth while considering the question of de-control. I know it is a revolutionary step because for nine or ten years the Governments of the day have rigorously controlled the trade. But it is a British product. Its cost is the wear and tear of British boats, the wages of British
  912
  fishermen and the cost of British coal. There are no external costs. The situation must be tackled. The president of the retail fishmongers organisation said at their annual convention that every decent fishmonger is ashamed to sell the goods he is compelled to sell. No Minister of Food can sit down complacently following on a statement of that kind.
  There is a tremendous opportunity for the Minister to get together with this industry to prevent this kind of thing from happening by freezing at sea instead of using ice for a purpose which it is not capable of performing. Trawler owners individually are afraid to take the step. They have little incentive in these days of savage taxation, but the time has come when there should be such a development instead of craft going into the Arctic Circle on tip-and-run raids. It is like going to the River Niger, or where the groundnuts come from, and coming back every month, with a waste of coal, labour and capital equipment. It would be wise to get the food back here in magnificent condition rather than for something to be brought which is stale and uneatable when consumed in this country. There is no mystery about freezing. Australia, New Zealand and the Argentine did it 65 or 70 years ago. What are we timid about? I commend it to the hon. Lady and to her right hon. Friend. I think that the trade will meet them more than half-way. It is their interest to land good food for the British people.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mrs. Leah Manning: The hon. Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson) began his speech with two assumptions which I do not accept. The first was that my right hon. Friend made his speech in a very minor key. The second was that the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) was dealing with the matters he raised only on humanitarian grounds, which had nothing whatever to do with what we are discussing this afternoon. His would have been a good speech, even if it had been only on humanitarian grounds, and it would have been worth while making. But it had a close connection with what we are discussing, and I shall make no apology for returning to it presently myself under Votes F and I.
  In the first place, I deny that the Minister either made his speech in a

  913
  minor key, or had any reason for doing so. I would congratulate the Ministry of Food on the magnificent way in which they have fed the people of these islands during the last six very difficult months. They had hardly any money to spend; there were bad harvests everywhere in the world; there was the difficult situation caused by the dock strike. They have had everything against them that they could very well have. But I do not think I look very bad on it myself—I certainly do not feel very bad, and when I look at hon. Gentlemen opposite I do not see anyone who looks as if he is going into a decline.
  Mr. Gallacher: That is a pity.
  Mrs. Manning: No, I do not think it is a pity. I do not want to see them going into a decline. I like to sit and look at hon. Gentlemen opposite—some of them at least—and on the whole they are a healthy looking lot.
  Mr. Gallacher: Prize winners.
  Mrs. Manning: We have every reason to be grateful to the Ministry of Food. I have listened carefully to the speeches which have been made and I cannot help agreeing with what two hon. Members have said, that the speeches from the Opposition Benches have been a mere series of trivialities. What have been the main things which they have brought up for consideration? B.Us.; fair shares for all; and snoek. I am very glad that the hon. Member for Streatham says that he is in favour of fair shares for all, and that the whole of his party are in favour of it. But does he really believe that today, in the present difficult situation, if we remove rationing there would be fair shares for all? He knows very well that there would not be.
  Sir D. Robertson: It the hon. Lady is referring to bread rationing, I do think there would be, because there is no scheme at all operating just now.
  Mrs. Manning: I am not referring to bread at the moment, and I do not think the hon. Member was meaning bread when he said that his party was in favour of fair shares for all. He was discussing the situation generally, and I assert that if we remove rationing we should not get fair shares for all. It is very certain that people with the money to spend would
  914
  again get everything they wanted, and people with a small amount of money in their pockets would be in the same situation as they were before the war. They would not be able to buy, because the prices would be too high. We know that, and therefore it does not seem to me to be quite fair that the hon. Gentleman should assert it in the way that he did. May I ask him, through you, Mr. Bowles, if he would be prepared to take off rationing altogether? I should be interested to know what his answer would be and then we should know how true is his assertion that he is in favour of fair shares for all.
  Sir D. Robertson: Mr. Bowles, I would be "agin it."
  Mrs. Manning: I am glad to hear that. Now we need not have any further attack upon the Ministry because of their rationing schemes.
  With regard to B.Us. I agree with everyone who has said that, to a certain extent, the B.U. scheme is not now operating. I looked at my own old ration book today—I do not say this with any sense of shame—and I asked my housekeeper, "What are all these 13's? Ought I to be having some points for them?" She said, "No, they are your bread rationing coupons." I said, "Then for Heaven's sake cut them out and send them to the baker." Everyone knows that this situation exists, but I do not think that it is any argument for abandoning the scheme at the moment. We do not know when we may need the scheme again. It is not the least use for the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) to look so disdainful about it. When we brought in this scheme we had the same disdain from the Opposition Benches, and we know very well now, that it was the only thing that helped us to turn a very difficult corner.
  Mr. J. S. C. Reid: No.
  Mrs. Manning: If that is the opinion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman I am afraid that he has not looked as deeply into the subject as his responsible position ought to have prompted him to do. We know very well that without that rationing system, during those few weeks when it was first imposed, we could not have turned the corner in the way we did. It may be that we have

  915
  become a little more elastic in regard to the way the scheme works now. But it would be very unsafe, with no real knowledge of what the harvest this Autumn will be, to take it off at the present moment. It is better to keep the machinery there, and to go ahead with it if we find we need it again.
  I wish to say a word in praise of the Parliamentary Secretary. One Vote is about publicity. She did the best piece of publicity I have ever known undertaken by any Ministry at all, and it was over the question of snoek, which has been so much derided from the Opposition Benches. It is true that the first lot of snoek that came to this country—under private enterprise—was very salt, and people did not like it. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Streatham has left his place. I would have told him that it would have been very bad and very wasteful to have thrown that snoek away, even although it was salt. If I make something at home and it is too salt I mix it in with something else, to get the right flavour. That is what the hon. Lady did. She sent the very salt snoek to be made into paste. It was mixed in with something else and then it was not too salt. There was a larger bulk, though with the same amount of salt, but then it could be used. She was also very wise. She saw that we did not get a bad lot of snoek next time. She had a party, and she showed us how to cook the snoek. I am very grateful to the hon. Lady. It was a good bit of publicity. I have learned how to cook this delectable fish so as to make a delectable meal.
  Mr. Maclay: Oh.
  Mrs. Manning: I should like the hon. Member to come and have a meal with me some time, and see how nice tinned snoek can be when it is cooked in the way that the Ministry taught us.
  Now I wish to turn to a Vote which I consider of real importance, more important than the trivial things we have been dealing with this afternoon, namely, the whole question of our work in F.A.O. I think the amount of money in this Vote is very small and very miserable. If we carry our minds back to the Debate on F.A.O. when the right hon. Gentleman, who is now the President of the Board of Trade, came back, we shall recall the
  916
  disappointment that many of us felt that a World Food Board had not been set up. I think that disappointment will be intensified today, now that we see how difficult the position has become, or at least, now that it has been brought home to all of us.
  It is no use thinking that we are looking at this only from a humanitarian viewpoint. When the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery started his speech by saying that it was our job to see that the rest of the world was well fed, he was speaking from a humanitarian point of view. But what we have to remember is that, because the world food situation is so bad, it is bound to have its effect upon us sooner or later. This is not a temporary phenomenon, any more than the shortage of dollars is temporary, or any of the other difficulties about which we are talking day after day. These are not transient things, they are things which have been emphasised and exaggerated in our eyes by the war, but they were beginning to happen long before the war. In time, they will make a tragic situation for us and for the world; and I do not know of any other machinery to help us except the F.A.O.
  There are 2,300 million people in the world who must be fed. They increase every year at the rate of 20 to 25 million, but, practically no more acreage comes under cultivation. That is bound to create a situation which in the end must affect the people of this country. The trouble is not only due to the increasing birth rate and the amount of land which is going out of production, but that there is much land in the world today which will not be suitable for production in our lifetime or for a very long time after that.
  Therefore, we must think of means of meeting this difficult situation which is brought about not only by land going out of production and by increases in world population, but by the change-over in countries which at one time were primary producing countries and which have now become partly or entirely industrialised. How the tables have been turned on us! At one time we used to get our food from these people as cheaply as possible, just as we got it from our own farmers as cheaply as possible.
  The tables are turned not only in the world but in our own country. The peasants and agricultural workers today

  917
  demand a better price for their labour and the things they produce. Therefore, they are able to buy the things they need, whereas in the past they had to sell everything they produced in order to be able to live at all. That situation is not one which exists only here or in Europe: it covers the whole world. Today we are begging people to buy our machines and clamouring for them to sell us their food, but they say "No." They can afford to turn their backs on two or three dollars a bushel. It serves them better, because their people are making machines and earning good money, to give this grain to their cattle, for their people can now afford to buy eggs, bacon and cheese which they could not buy when they had nothing to bargain with and when they had to come to us not only for machines but when they had to pay interest on the capital which we had invested with them.
  The whole world situation has changed in a way which we would be wise to consider, to try to fathom the difficulties and find an answer to them. The situation affects us already. It is what makes procurement the most difficult of the tasks of the Minister of Food. I think that what has been said by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery has been said with sufficient sincerity and knowledge of the situation to make it unnecessary for me to go into further details. Perhaps I ought not to feel so anxious, it may be that our officials are as interested in the work of F.A.O., as I would like to feel that they are and in the question of trying to build up, for example, wheat stocks in the world.
  That brings me to my next point about which I want some information from the Parliamentary Secretary. I read with great disappointment that the International Wheat Agreement had fallen through. When I first saw an account of the International Wheat Agreement and the large number of countries which had subscribed to it, I thought that it was a magnificent piece of international co-operation. It seemed that for five years at least we had insured ourselves against great rises in wheat prices. I think that the agreed price was two dollars a bushel at Fort William and that it would have remained at that figure for five years. It also appeared to me that the producers had insured themselves against the kind
  918
  of crashes which came very often in the years before the war.
  For example, when Russia first came back into the world wheat market in 1930 and when the whole of Europe was trying to be self-sufficient, because they were building up for the war and trying to produce as much as possible within their own borders, all those things made it very bad for countries on the other side of the world which had been producing wheat. It seemed to me that in the International Wheat Agreement we had the right kind of insurance both for producers, exporters and importers. It is a very grave disappointment to find that we have withdrawn from that Agreement. I suppose that we have withdrawn because America has—I do not know—but I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us what happened to cause that Agreement to break down when it seemed to promise so much in the way of stable prices and costs.
  I turn now to Vote I. I do not want to say very much, except to mention it in connection with what I have already said about the great revolution in food production, distribution and consumption which has been going on in the world in the last decades. I refer to the groundnuts scheme. I am very glad that the Minister went into that scheme with optimism. Some hon. Members opposite attacked him for his optimism. If one goes into a thing in the belief that it will not succeed, one can be quite sure that it will not succeed. If one goes into a venture with optimism and faith even though it may be difficult at the beginning, one finds one's way through to success in the end. I am sure that this will happen with the groundnuts scheme.
  We know the difficulties which have had to be faced. There was the difficulty of not having the priority which had been expected. When we first went into the scheme, I remember it being said that it should have the same priority as if it were a military operation. We know that the scheme has not been given that priority. Many other claims have come along and many other people have wanted the things which should have gone to Tanganyika. That has been half the trouble and that is the reason why the scheme has not been as successful as was hoped at the beginning. I know that the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead says that

  919
  that was our fault, but with everybody struggling for priorities it must have been most difficult for the Minister to get what was needed for Africa.
  That does not alter the fact that this project is exactly the sort of thing which is needed to meet the situation outlined by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies). We must find new lands which can be made productive again or which can be made productive for the first time. There are some places where there has been frightful soil erosion and where that cannot be done. But in other places like the bush, which can be cleared and where pests and animal diseases can be fought, a great opportunity is presented. That is the kind of thing which we must tackle if the world is to meet this terrible new situation which is only now beginning to be understood. The very fact that the Minister of Food went into the groundnuts scheme with optimism, courage and faith that it would succeed, is something for which this Committee ought to be grateful, and it is not something which hon. Members opposite ought to sneer at.
  I hope very much that, during the time in office of the present Minister, we shall find not only that we are successful but that our successes in Africa encourage other countries to undertake the same kind of venture. These great imaginative schemes, which must be carried out by all countries, present the only way in which in future the world with its thousands of millions of people can possibly be fed. I hope all hon. Members will encourage the Minister in his work. I hope that we shall all congratulate him on what he has done and ask him to go forward with our best hopes for his success.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. J. H. Hare: It is always a great pleasure to follow the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning), and this is the second occasion on which I have had that pleasure. I think her practical approach to matters and her warm humanity always make it a great pleasure to listen to her.
  I would like to concentrate on the last of the various points which the hon. Lady brought to the attention of the Committee, and I would like to speak for a
  920
  few minutes on what the Minister said about the groundnuts scheme, and to try to clarify again what the attitude of my party is, so far as this important project is concerned. We have never sneered at the groundnuts scheme, and, if the hon. Lady goes through the Debate on the Second Reading of the Overseas Resources Development Bill, or takes the trouble to read the Debate on the Supplementary Estimates when the groundnuts scheme was discussed, she would have seen that, in all these discussions, we on this side of the Committee have given the groundnuts scheme our wholehearted approval, and, in fact, congratulated the Government on their bold conception of what is entirely a new idea of agricultural development in tropical countries. That was our attitude, and it still is, but we feel there is a good deal to criticise about the way this scheme has been presented and also in regard to what is happening now. I think the hon. Lady will be the first to agree that it is the job of an Opposition to criticise, and, if those criticisms are valid, then it is the right thing for the Government to accept those criticisms and to do something about them.
  I would agree with the Minister of Food when he said that the groundnuts scheme should not be made a party issue. We on this side say that we are not making it a party issue, but that the right hon. Gentleman himself has done so. In his speech today, the Minister took the view that, so far as he was concerned, he was keeping this matter well above the party level, and that it was only through sneers and allegations on our part that it was dragged into the party arena. I would like to ask him why practically every housewife in this country a year ago imagined that she was going to get an immediate extra allotment of margarine? Why was it that the farming community thought they would get a large amount of extra feedingstuffs for milk production? Was it a conspiracy on the part of the wicked Tories, who said that the Government were going to be so successful with the groundnuts scheme that, within a year or two years, thousands of extra tons of groundnuts were to be poured into the country? I do not think it was a Tory conspiracy. I am convinced that the British public was led to believe that by this Government—I have not got the

  921
  extracts from the relevant speeches here, but I do say that either the Minister, his P.R.O. or his followers gave the impression to the country that we should get these extra fats at a very early date.
  Mr. Collins: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? The original announcement about the groundnuts scheme stated quite categorically that the first production was expected to be small, that there would be production this year, but, in any case, the harvest first of all would be very small.
  Mr. Hare: I do not think that is a relevant interruption. The figure of 150,000 tons of groundnuts was expected to be harvested this year under the original scheme when it was first published in 1946; the hon. Gentleman has only to remember that 7,500 tons were harvested, and that the whole point about the British housewife not getting the extra allocation of margarine. The housewife was led to believe that she could expect something fairly soon, and the Government are responsible for giving her that impression, which should never have been created. It was much too optimistic and should never have been allowed to have been created in the minds of the people. The Minister is really not facing up to the lessons which he should have learned in the running of this scheme. He quoted himself an extract from Cmd. 7030, issued in 1946, in which he said that it was realised that there would be difficulties, because he said:
  "A vast agricultural operation of this kind, involving the use of all the latest techniques of mechanised production in remote and undeveloped areas, clearly involves considerable risks. Serious difficulties and delays, many of them unforeseeable, may arise in the course of the undertaking."
  At this point, several hon. Members said, "Read on," but the right hon. Gentleman would not read on. He need only have read one more sentence:
  "The view taken by His Majesty's Government, after making the most careful investigation possible of the financial aspects of the scheme, is, however, that these risks are justified by the critical shortage of oils and fats in the world today and by the prospect of a continuing shortage for many years to come."
  The point is that, according to the Government, this scheme was started with the greatest possible care, and went into all the financial implications concerning
  922
  transport and so on, and it was stated that 150,000 tons of groundnuts would be produced in the harvest year 1947–48. Unfortunately, as we now know, these expectations have not been achieved. The Minister of Food has quoted letters from Mr. Faure, of the United Africa Company, and he talked about the stupidity of Members of Parliament and said that he boils over with indignation when he hears this scheme commented upon. I know Mr. Faure, and I had the privilege of being taken round by him, and no greater enthusiast could be imagined. The scheme owes as much to him as to anybody. As for stupidity, it is also the people of this country, as well as Members of Parliament, who are stupid, because they are prepared to criticise the scheme when they realise that it is producing one-twentieth of expectation or of what they were led to believe, and that is what we have to keep in mind.
  The Minister admitted that some mistakes had been made, and he tried to limit these mistakes to two. First, he said, the storekeeping accounts had not been properly kept. That is a very small point, and I do not think it was worthy of him. It is no use keeping stores accounts properly when there are no spare parts and all the machines are broken down. Secondly, he said that the scope of the maintenance problem had not been properly envisaged. That was only one of the major reasons for failure. There was a complete lack of imagination in asserting the most obvious maintenance needs.
  When it is realised that the majority of the heavy tractors employed were secondhand stores from America, which had been lying on dumps for a year or two years, it was obvious that enormous workshop facilities would be needed. In March of this year, every tractor had been called in and not one was working on jungle clearance, but officials were hoping, with their inadequate workshops, to turn them out again at the rate of 10 a week. They also said, and this was in March of this year, that it would take them six months before they would be able to have the workshop facilities which would be needed to maintain the various equipment which they had on hand. Therefore, I certainly agree with what the Minister said in that there was a lack of imagination in envisaging the scope of the maintenance problem.

  923
  I would also agree with the non. Lady the Member for Epping that this scheme was embraced and given a blessing from the Government, who said it was to be organised like a military operation. The hon. Lady is kinder to the Government than I am. This has not been treated as a military operation, and it never could have been. I am astonished that, at the end of 1946, before this scheme was finally approved, the Government ever thought that it could be treated as a military operation. There are far too many other commitments and demands on our capital and consumer goods for that to be possible. Another reason for the very disappointing start of the scheme—and I hope that the hon. Lady the Member for Epping will agree—is that there was not a proper appreciation of the fact that the right type of equipment was not available. The Minister in his speech on the Supplementary Estimates justified the purchase of these second-hand heavy tractors from the Americans on the ground that they were cheap. It is no use buying something cheap if it does not work. Unfortunately, a large proportion of this equipment never moved under its own propulsion after arriving in the middle of the jungle in Tanganyika. Therefore, the scheme was handicapped, because it is only quite recently, owing to these converted Sherman tanks which are very successful, that we have begun to get the real tools for the job. Unfortunately, it has taken us at least nine months to gain that experience.
  We also failed to appreciate the obvious transport difficulties which were bound to arise. We did not appreciate the congestion there would be in the port of Dar-es-Salaam, neither did we envisage the transport difficulties on the Tanganyika Railways. However, I give full marks to the Government because that particular aspect of this problem is being overcome fairly rapidly. I have been told that Dar-es-Salaam is now dealing far more effectively than it has done since the start of the scheme, with the traffic that is pouring through the port. I am also told that more rolling stock and so on has arrived in Tanganyika, so that the railway system is functioning more effectively.
  There has been a lack of preliminary technical knowledge of how these nuts are to be grown. People talk about rotation
  924
  of two years of groundnuts and then two years of some other type of crop. In the opinion of most East African and Central African farming experts, this is not feasible. They say that we are asking for the most appalling trouble if we follow one groundnut crop one year with another groundnut crop the following year. A great deal of work will have to be done before we have really worked out a proper system of rotation, and I am sure that the arrival of Mr. Phillips from South Africa, who is going to be in charge of the agricultural side of the scheme, will be welcomed. He is a great expert in these matters, but he has a lot of leeway to make up, because I do not think enough has been learned so far.
  The Minister's financial reassessment was very unconvincing. He went so far as to say that assuming that groundnut prices remained at the present level, which he takes at an average of £41 per ton, and assuming that costs do not more than double over the amount envisaged, this scheme is likely to be more remunerative than originally anticipated. The Minister has made a very grave mistake in trying to mislead both the Committee and the country. I am convinced—I am only quoting my own opinion and that of certain friends of mine who have been out there—that the cost of this scheme will be very much greater than anything which we can envisage at the moment.
  The point is that we have already wasted one year, and the future forecasts—I know what they are, unless they have altered very much since the time when I was out there—of what we are likely to be able to do are still far too sanguine. I know it is hoped that when the next harvest comes along we shall be able to clear 150,000 acres and have it planted for the following harvest. I believe that is correct; perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell me if I am wrong. From what I was able to see when I was in those parts, we shall be very fortunate if we can clear more than 100,000 acres, and if we have 75,000 acres cropped for the next harvest we shall have done reasonably well.
  It is on this still too sanguine forecast of the future that the Minister has based his scheme. Courage is needed to present the true picture. Unless courage is shown and unless it is admitted that the scheme is likely to cost far more than we

  925
  originally anticipated, we shall find that if a bombshell is suddenly dropped on the public in a year's time or so the British public will say, "This thing is too expensive, we are not prepared to go on with it." It is the desire of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee that that does not occur. So much of the future well-being of this country and of the rest of the world depends upon the successful development of growing groundnuts and of clearing thousands of acres of unexploited bush land. The Minister of Food has given birth, after much labour, to a delicate child—a child to whom we all wish good luck. But that child is hardly able to walk even now, and the Minister of Food is trying to make the child run.
  7.36 p.m.
  Mr. Dye: It has been anticipated that this would be one of the most important Debates this week, and we were promised that hon. Members opposite would have a great deal of criticism to make of the Minister in view of the lack of planning and preparation for his schemes. However, both of the previous speakers from the opposite benches have had to admit that they themselves had given too little preparation to their speeches, and, therefore, it ill becomes them to criticise the Minister for pursuing a policy which has not been properly thought out.
  I do not know whether I should criticise the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), the leader of the Liberal Party, since the Liberal Party have all deserted the Committee, but I would say that when I listened to his speech I wondered whether he was not addressing the wrong assembly. After all, today we are concerned with the Ministry of Food and its operations mainly so far as they concern this country. We have already handed the problem in India to the Indians, and, so far as I know, we never did take on the problem of China. The vast increase in populations in those parts of the world is not the responsibility of this country, but I quite agree that we must bear in mind that great problem when we carry out our own policy, and it seems to me that that is just what we have been doing. Whereas previously we received large quantities of groundnuts from India, owing to the increase in population there
  926
  and their need for those groundnuts, we have had to seek other sources of groundnuts.
  The only criticism from the opposite Benches which I recognised is that the Ministry of Food started too soon in attempting to grow groundnuts in East Africa, that they ought to have built up a great team of men and machines before starting the job. Being an agriculturist myself, I should have thought that the sooner one got experience of the task of growing groundnuts the better, and that one should learn from experience. If we took over some of the machines which the Americans have used in the Philippines, or other parts of the world, in order to get a start, experimented with them, tried to adapt them, and on the basis of that work sent back home the results of our experience and requested machines which were more suitable for the task—I would say the sooner we did that the better. I think, therefore, that the Ministry were wise in pushing ahead with the scheme for groundnuts in East Africa. One of the things which we miss in this country in feeding our stock is groundnut meal. It is one of the foods with a high protein content which we need for the stock, pigs and poultry. The sooner we can get supplies of groundnut meal, whether from East Africa, West Africa or anywhere else, the sooner we shall be able to increase the quantity of meat and eggs that we can produce at home.
  When we speak of the great and urgent need for a supply of fats, we should also turn our attention to the pig, which in the past was one of the great producers of fats. Another hon. Member has referred to Denmark as a source for a supply of bacon, but I see from the latest information that the number of sows in Denmark has declined and, therefore, a fall in the number of pigs can be expected during 1948 and 1949, and that the total production of bacon in 1947 constituted about two-thirds of the production of 1938. We must, therefore, turn our attention to other sources of bacon, pork or lard, and it is gratifying to notice that in this country there has been a rapid increase in the number of breeding sows and, therefore, we can anticipate a greater quantity of pork from our own country.
  Under the present scale of payment for fat pigs, the maximum price comes to about £18. After that, if the pig gets

  927
  bigger, gets fatter, gets more lard inside it, we pay a smaller price, and the bigger pigs could make about £2 less to the producer. Surely, we know that the number of pigs that will be killed in the next six months cannot be greater than the number of pigs already in existence. Therefore, if we encourage greater weight we shall get more lard, and we shall get a better supply of meat for the sausages, for the pork pies and the rest of it. Why not immediately go into this question of encouraging the farmers to produce greater quantities of pork rather than aiming at the highest quality of pork? It is not quality that is wanted so much today as quantity, and if we get quantity we also get lard.
  As the pigs should come through the slaughterhouses controlled by the Ministry, that lard should come to the ration. I ask the Minister to give very urgent consideration to this question. I remember in the early part of the war when the Americans were suddenly asked to supply this country with more meat, they urged their farmers to keep their pigs to a heavier weight so as to bring about a greater quantity. What applies to pigs applies equally to fat cattle. We know the number of cattle there are in this country today; therefore, we know the number that will come to the markets and the slaughterhouses during the next few years. It is the number we have in the country, less those which will die off at any time through some disease or other, plus any imported store cattle which may come from Ireland. Therefore, if we are to increase the supply of beef from our home-produced herds, it must be by greater weight.
  In many cases, greater weight could also mean better quality, because if we look through the cattle markets today and see cattle which are not fat coming into the rings and over the weigh-bridges we see we are losing that extra weight which these animals ought to be carrying. I know that under the present system there is a premium for the better quality animals up to a live weight of 13 cwt. My hon. Friend the Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) was talking of 14 cwt. bullocks. Surely it is much easier to get the ration out of a 14 cwt. bullock than it is out of an eight cwt. bullock? The greater the amount of weight and the
  928
  older the bullock and the better finished off, the greater the proportion of meat. I urge the Minister to have a talk with the Minister of Agriculture on this particular subject to see whether, by a system of payment and grading, we cannot encourage the producer to get both the greater quantity and the better quality of beef for home consumption.
  Having mentioned that particular point, I would add that I fully realise that the success of the Government's policy in relation to food depends upon the fullest co-operation between the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Agriculture. It would have been an encouragement to have seen on the Government Benches all through this Debate today a representative of the Ministry of Agriculture, so as to ensure the fullest co-operation on matters of policy and day-to-day work in connection with these two Ministries.
  There is one other matter I would like to mention—I would like to turn from meat to fruit. Last year we had an excellent crop of apples in this country, and what a great standby they were during the winter. Thanks to the steps that were taken by the Ministry of Food large quantities of apples were stored so they could be brought on to the market in a very good condition at a later period. This year, the prospects of the apple crop are not good, but the prospects of the plum crop are excellent and here arises a problem. Last year's plums have not yet been cleared away. Those who are responsible for jam making have large stocks of plum pulp on hand. When it is estimated that this year's plum crop will be in the region of 138,000 tons, and the people who are responsible for processing cannot see their way to take more than about, say, the 38,000 tons, what is to happen to the remainder, unless some action is taken by the Ministry of Food to enable the people to consume that plum jam or pulp which is in stock?
  May I ask the Minister to give his attention to this problem immediately so that we will have no wastage of the plum crop this year and so that those who have grown the crop can have the fullest assurance that all of it will be required either as fresh fruit or canned, or as jam, or as pulp for the following year? This is a matter of great urgency to those responsible for growing the plum crop this year,

  929
  and I ask the Minister to give his immediate attention to it.
  We can, I think, rejoice together in the agreement which has been made with the Eire Government for a further supply of food from that country, and we hope that this agreement will lead to very much better relations between the two countries. Ireland, with her greater rainfall in most years than this country, with her wonderful grass, can rear cattle in great quantities and, maybe, if the Irish send greater quantities of cattle here, we can fatten them. We shall be glad of the opportunity. But there is some concern amongst the poultry keepers of this country as to whether we are not making provision for a greater supply of feeding-stuffs for Ireland than would be available here. It is one of the most encouraging signs of the present time that the farmers of this country are increasing their stocks of poultry. It will lend to very much better supplies of table birds and eggs in the months to follow. If the Minister of Agriculture with the Minister of Food can so arrange that there will be the 20 per cent. of wheat and barley left on the farms for consumption by the poultry and the pigs and other animals—that will also all be to the good. We do want the fullest assurance that there will not only be the cereals available for poultry and pigs, but that the food containing more proteins will also be available, so that we can increase the supply of meat and eggs as well as maintain, and even increase, the supply of milk.
  One of the most disturbing things said by the Minister today was that our problem now is not so much the problem of the availability of food as of the balance of payments—whether we as a nation shall be able to pay for the food which is available in the world. We had one instance in the case of peas in South Africa, which had to be left there rather than brought to this country. That indicates the very great importance of the fullest development of our own home food production.
  Despite all his difficulties and tasks, I should like to see the Minister of Food take more personal interest in those who are producing food in this country. He receives resolutions time after time from the representatives of the agricultural workers, asking for a little more rations regularly for those workers,
  930
  as they are engaged in food production. I hope he will not always turn a deaf ear to them. I know that the most important thing is to increase the rations of everybody as soon as possible, but if he could stretch over a longer period and make more general the extra rations for all farm workers, it would encourage them. It would encourage the farmers, too, if he could spare time occasionally to look round the farms and districts which are devoting themselves with such energy to producing food in this country.
  7.54 p.m.
  Mr. Spearman: I want to spend the short time I shall keep the Committee, on one part of the Minister's speech. I had an engagement with the Ministry of Pensions which stopped my hearing the whole of his speech, but I did hear the right hon. Gentleman make an immensely important statement which, so far, has not been remarked upon during the Debate. He told us that the cost of food subsidies is going to rise to £470 million. In the Budget speech just three months ago, the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that the cost of food subsidies was running at about £400 million and was to be maintained at that level. I am not concerned tonight with making an attack on food subsidies, but I do ask for an explanation of a change of such magnitude in such a short time.
  Is it due to the fact that our cheaper contracts have run out? Or is it due to the fact that the terms of trade have gone more against us? If so, how was it that that was not foreseen so short a time ago as the 6th April? Or is it that there is a difference of opinion in the Cabinet on this matter? A rise in the cost of food subsidies by this colossal amount would seem to be an entire reversal of the financial policy of the Government. I have a great respect for the Minister of Food, who is a very old friend of mine, and he is a Minister who is of great importance; but I think he will agree that he is not of the importance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that when we are considering this vitally important matter, this apparent reversal of the financial policy of the Government, it should not be left to the Minister of Food to tell us about it, but should be announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I

  931
  do ask that on the earliest possible occasion we shall have an explanation by the Chancellor of this matter.
  The Minister of Food defended his action on humanitarian grounds and referred to "hard-hearted economists." As regards the second, I hope, as one who, though by no means an economist, is in a very humble capacity connected with the London School of Economics, the right hon. Gentleman does not suggest that all economists are hard-hearted. But on humanitarian grounds he defended this enormous rise in costs. He gave in support of this the evidence of a distinguished French observer who had instanced the great improvement in the health of our children. None of us suggests spending less on the milk in the schools; none of us suggests cutting all food subsidies from vital commodities. That is not our case at all.
  What I suggest to the Minister is that it may be a wasteful way of helping those who need help most to pay out food subsidies which go to rich and poor alike, whether they need that help or not. It may be that those who most need it could be helped much more economically by an increase in the allowances or pensions rather than by this wholesale giving out of subsidies to rich and poor alike. As regards the second point, I suggest this is really the Purchase Tax in reverse. Is this the time when we should be helping people to spend more and increasing taxation on production? Certainly, there are times, as there was a time in the interwar period, when there was an ineffective demand for all we could produce when there might have been a very good case indeed for doing just that; but at this time, under these conditions, it seems to me open to question whether it is wise to spend this huge amount in helping people to spend, and when that amount has to be offset by taxing the producers. I should like to quote a comment on this matter which was made in this Chamber come time ago. It was:
  "I think we are piling up too much. I venture to say, and I said this once before in this House, that there are things which in themselves appear to be quite good and each of them makes a special appeal, and somehow you go up for million to million, until at last, I think, the burden will become a perfectly crushing one."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th May, 1930; Vol. 239, c. 1373.]
  932
  That was not said by a Member on this side, but by the late Mr. Lloyd George. Food subsidies as originally brought about under the regime of my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) were running at £200 million. That may or may not have been too much. Food subsidies were running last year at £300 million. That may or may not have been too much. The rate of £400 million may or may not have been too much. Even the current rate may not be too much. But there must be a limit which we cannot afford to exceed, and if the subsidies are jumped up by this staggering sum, I think we ought to have the pros and cons for such an increase before us. I, personally, think we have got to cut Government expenditure. I cannot see how we are to do it if expenditure of this sort is to go on at this level. With Government expenditure at this level, we must have a high level of taxation. That means disincentive to production. I am not saying that there must be a reduction of taxation simply to lighten the burden on the well-to-do, but because it is vital to the economy of the country. Taxation must have a disincentive effect on production There are men who are earning £10 a week who would have to pay at the rate of three times as much in taxation if they worked an extra hour's overtime a day.
  As regards the present situation of inflation, we have the misdirection of men and material into making those things which are not vital to our own use and not vital for export. We have to have a system of controls which must interfere with efficiency. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that, in his own subject of food, there are manufacturers of sweets making vast sums of money and doing very inadequate work for it. I know of cases where they were earning £5,000 or £6,000 a year before the war and are now making £40,000 a year and more. Just because they have an allocation of materials, they are able to make money without being efficient. That is most unsatisfactory. Surely there is reason for getting rid of these controls to which the right hon. Gentleman refers at the earliest possible moment, in the interests of efficiency.
  The right hon. Gentleman would, I expect, say that these vast sums must be spent in order to avoid a spiral demand for high wages which would cause greater

  933
  inflation. That is a powerful argument. I fully realise that if there is a demand for higher wages, they will go up to a point at which the result will bring about heavy unemployment, which is a thing we all dread to see. But I suggest that there is another side to that case. We may try to avoid it at too great an expense. This increase in subsidies means a reversal of the Chancellor's policy. If it means a considerable increase in inflationary pressure, what happens then? We have I believe to produce more and spend less. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman must agree with that when he tells us that our problem now is not availability of supplies but balance of payments.
  What happens if, under increasing inflation, we produce less? It means that we shall not be able to buy raw materials to keep men employed. That means that we shall buy less food. The food we buy will cost more. We shall have vast unemployment; it will be a vicious circle because obviously the more unemployment we have the less we can produce and the less we export the less we have with which to buy necessary raw materials. This leads to a catastrophic condition. I am suggesting that in a well-intentioned plan of maintaining the present price of food we may be taking that action that will give us less food at a far greater cost and vast unemployment. Today we are spending on food subsidies about half the prewar revenue of the country. I repeat that when it has reached that figure, it surely is a time when there should not be a vast increase without a full explanation from the Minister primarily responsible, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mrs. Jean Mann: I have listened to the whole of this Debate, and up till now I have not heard anything about the food situation in this country as it affects the housewife. I expected an overwhelming onslaught from the benches opposite about food in the home. We have heard nothing about that. It is just a year ago since convertibility shook the country, and all manner of prophecies went out as to the terrible things that would happen in the homes of the British people. We had screaming headlines about the starvation which that crisis would bring to us. We had headlines such as "The meat ration will be halved"; "Your butter ration
  934
  will disappear"; "The fat ration will be halved." Not one of those prophecies has turned out to be correct, and the Minister of Food may take credit that nothing has emanated from those vile prophecies. If there was anything astonishing in the Debate today it was the attack by the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid). I have never listened to anything so poor in all my life.
  Mr. Spearman: Will the hon. Lady agree with my right hon. and learned Friend that we have only been saved from the most drastic cuts by the generosity of the United States of America?
  Mrs. Mann: Not at all. On the contrary, I began by drawing attention to convertibility and its effect on this country. Surely, I do not need to tell hon. Members opposite that the Loan had to come to an end, but whether it came to an end or not, the stuff went on to the tables of the people of Great Britain. That statement is incontrovertible. I intend to prove it in a minute or two.
  To return to the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead, we have been accustomed to hear this right hon. and learned Gentleman in Scottish Grand Committee go into meticulous detail about a preposition. He could keep the Committee for 20 minutes on an Amendment to a preposition or even a conjunction. I have passed through his constituency for years and have seen the housewives queueing in the main shopping areas in Glasgow. It is well known to the right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) that Byers Road is an area that would let us know immediately if, as the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead said three years ago, it witnessed a steady decline in our food supplies.
  Three years ago, and even two years ago, there were large queues at the fishmongers all over Hillhead, particularly in the main shopping area of Byers Road. There were large queues waiting for a quarter pound of tomatoes per application. I think that it is two years ago since I, with six ration books, had to take a quarter pound of tomatoes, and a woman at the back of me in the queue, who had only one book, got the same amount. What is the situation today? In Hillhead and all over Scotland

  935
  tomatoes have tumbled down in price and there are endless supplies in the shops, yet hon. Members opposite tell us that we have witnessed a steady decline. I believe that the hon. and learned Member for Hillhead goes in largely for afternoon teas. Probably that is why he is the representative of that division. As the result of that penchant for afternoon teas there were endless queues at the cake shops in Hillhead. Now there are no longer queues at the fish shops, cake shops or fruit shops. Instead of a steady decline there has been a very great improvement in the supplies coming to the tables of the housewives of this country.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Is the hon. Lady giving the Minister the lie when he says that by pulling and hauling, they have been able to maintain the standard, but no more? Certainly the Minister has not claimed any increase in the standard. The hon. Lady ought to know, if she has attended the Scottish Grand Committee, that the tuberculosis statistics for Scotland are the worst for 20 years.
  Mrs. Mann: Well, the tuberculosis rate is a long way from a food Debate.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: No, it is not.
  Mrs. Mann: I take it from that, that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is pushed for some interjection, and that my remarks are going home.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Does not the hon. Lady remember the last Debate, and the argument of the Parliamentary Secretary?
  Mrs. Mann: I remember the days when hon. Gentlemen opposite were not in the least worried about calorific values, vitamins, or anything of that kind; when they sent girls home from the labour exchange with 3d. in their hands because their brothers were working. Where then, in the days when they introduced the Means Test, was all this concern for calorific intake?
  I find that even to keep the queues together in Scotland women are organising 'bus drives. The situation must have changed remarkably when we now have to introduce social measures to keep queues together. Where is the right line of defence of hon. Members opposite?
  936
  There are now not even any housewives to back them up. Surely, with a Debate like this, when it is announced before-hand that the Opposition have laid down food supplies as the subject, all their old friends, the Housewives League and the Housewives Association, should have been parading outside, sending hon. Members opposite on their happy way rejoicing. Instead of that, the last letter I had from the Housewives Association—and I think it is the latest and most up-to-date—was a request that the National Health Service Act should be postponed and not put into operation on 5th July. That shows how concerned people are about food at the present time.
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Tell us another story.
  Mrs. Mann: In this Debate there have been a lot of back-seat drivers. The hon. Member for Western Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) finished up with a Scottish song, "Will ye no' come back again," which he said was what we ought to sing to Lord Woolton. It is not to Lord Woolton that we ought to sing "Will ye no' come back again," but to Lend-Lease. Without Lend-Lease, Lord Woolton's car would not go; his accelerator would not work; the back wheels would be wobbling, and the front tyres deflated. The only thing that ever went with the Tory Party was the brake; the brake has always worked. One just trembles to think what Lord Woolton's position would be if he were driving today; I certainly think he would require to have his plugs decarbonised.
  The situation has improved. One would have thought that hon. Members opposite would come here and tell us they were agreeably surprised that we had won through the crisis so much better than through the Geddes Axe crisis, or the dollar crisis when we were chasing the £ across the Atlantic in order to look the dollar in the face. As housewives, we are all agreeably surprised.
  I have heard of Lord Woolton's suggestion about the sweets, and I have heard, not today but at other times, hon. Members speak on the question of sugar. At three o'clock this morning I finished making 32 lbs. of jam, and each month I will continue with my extra sugar for jam making. That extra ration of sugar means that the housewife can double the

  937
  ration, because later on instead of taking jam she can again have sugar. Consequently, any housewife who takes the sugar for jam finds later on that she gets extra sugar in lieu of jam, either to make jam or even to change it for other sweets. Not only that, but if one has 48 lbs. worth of jam, through this extra 1 lb. sugar that we are getting in the Summer, it means that for the whole of the Winter one can take sugar in lieu of jam. I think that a great deal of the criticism I have read comes from people who never made a pot of jam in their lives, and do not intend to, and who know nothing at all about thrift in the running of a home; or perhaps it is that they merely want to be critical.
  If I were to ask for something, I think I should ask for sweets to be unrationed to the children. I should also ask the Minister: what about getting carcass fat? We do need more soups, and more fat. I have been told—I shall probably be informed that I am wrong, because I am going on the only information available to me—that we have refused carcass fat because of lack of shipping space between here and the Argentine. If we had the suet fat it would help housewives to a very large extent. I should also like to see the banana rationing scheme extended, to begin with, to the children and the old people, and then, if possible, to let everyone have a general ration.
  The Ministry of Food deserve our thanks and our congratulations for having steered the homes of Britain through a very severe crisis, and for having tempered the wind and made the storm break in the gentlest possible way.
  8.20 p.m.
  Colonel Lancaster: I will resist the temptation of coming between the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge (Mrs. Mann) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid), as I want to devote myself for a few moments to a matter which has received little attention so far in this Debate, namely, poultry keepers and eggs. In that connection, I am glad to see the Minister of Agriculture in his place.
  During his speech the Minister of Food made some reference to the matter of feedingstuffs for livestock, and commented on the fact that only one-third of the value of coarse grains was realised by this country as against buying carcase meat from
  938
  abroad. That seemed to me rather a sweeping assertion, as it took no account of the manurial residues from producing our own livestock to say nothing of the benefits from an improvement in our livestock population. He said nothing in regard to the matter of feedingstuffs for poultry, however, and I hope that the hon. Lady can say something, for it is giving a great deal of concern to poultry keepers. As she probably realises, I have the honour of representing a constituency which has more poultry keepers than any other part of the country.
  There has, of course, been a decline in our poultry stocks between 1945 and December, 1947, of about 10 million poultry, and both the larger and smaller poultry keepers have had a difficult time to contend with the reduction in their feedingstuffs. I would like the hon. Lady to give some indication of what is to be the policy in the immediate future. The Minister of Agriculture of Eire quite recently said that it was the intention of Eire to flood this country with eggs within the next two years. That is a matter which gives additional concern to our own poultry keepers. Is it the policy of the Government in future to buy shell eggs abroad or in Eire as against producing poultry and eggs in this country? If so, what is the underlying principle? Surely it is not suggested that it is cheaper to buy shell eggs from abroad rather than to import the necessary feedingstuffs for our own poultry population?
  In this regard I would like to say one word with reference to the many ex-Service men who had been attempting in quite a small way since the war to start up poultry keeping, in many cases men who have been advised on medical grounds that they must follow some open-air occupation. In most cases these men have taken over holdings and are confined to an allocation which was laid down in the year 1939, and which may have been adequate at that time in conjunction with some other occupation or some other outlet for the then occupier. In so many cases these ex-Service men find themselves in a position where it is wholly impracticable to gain a reasonable living on that allocation, and time and again the Minister of Agriculture has had to turn down representations by myself and other hon. Members on their behalf for some small additional allowance to enable them to get on their feet

  939
  and make something of a living. I hope that in her winding-up speech the hon. Lady will be able to hold out some reasonable hope for this deserving body of men.
  I have a number of other things which I should like to deal with, but I promised to confine myself to six minutes and, as I have used them up, I will sit down.
  8.24 p.m.
  Mr. Collins: I do not want to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Fylde (Colonel Lancaster) in his remarks except to say that I am sure everybody in the Committee will support his plea for an increase in the poultry feedingstuffs allocations, and also for some extension of the entitlement system. He will be aware, however, that it all depends on the supply of feedingstuffs, and I am sure my right hon. Friend will make those increases as soon as possible. There is one small point on which I should like to correct the hon. and gallant Member, and that is in his reference to the decline in the poultry population by some 10 million. I think that figure, which has been quoted by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) was arrived at by comparing the totals in June, 1945, with those in December, 1947—
  Colonel Lancaster indicated assent.
  Mr. Collins: —and as the hon. and gallant Member is aware, Christmas is a bad time for counting chickens. The comparison, therefore, is valueless, and the fact is that in the last year there was an increase of some 95 per cent. in the numbers of young poultry.
  This Debate has revealed the complete ascendancy which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food has established, and the fact that from the Opposition Benches only minor criticism has come is an indication of the truly remarkable job that he has done in the last 12 months. However, my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee have in many ways indicated the many successes which have attended on the efforts of the Minister of Food, and therefore I do not want to enlarge on them. I want to deal with one or two matters not of shortage but of surplus, and to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some indication of how she hopes to deal with these.
  940
  The first concerns potatoes. Twelve months ago in a Debate on this Vote, I warned my right hon. Friend that there would be a serious potato shortage, and that eventuated. Now I am going to say that this year there will be a considerable potato surplus. There is little doubt that the crop will not be much less than seven tons to the acre, and with something like 1,400,000 acres we shall probably produce some 10 million tons, disregarding the increase in production from gardens and allotments. With the average pre-rationing consumption of 5 lb., that would mean a total annual requirement of something like six million tons making a surplus of four million tons. But the surplus may be even larger than that because people, having got down to three lb. a week on the ration, have so far shown little inclination to step up their potato eating.
  Therefore it seems—and this is fortunate—that there is every likelihood of a considerable surplus. This is showing itself now because, with early potatoes, many growers are quite unable to get their wholesalers to take them. They are not on the wholesale market fetching the minimum price which, of course, must go back to the grower, and in London on Saturday the wholesale price in the markets was £10 per ton although the market has to send £14 5s. a ton to the grower. Quite obviously that cannot go on indefinitely, and many growers are unable to lift their early potatoes for that reason. That is a temporary matter but it wants looking into.
  By far the more important matter is what we are going to do with this fortunate surplus which undoubtedly will eventuate and which I, for one, am glad will happen. It is something that we should welcome that there is the prospect of a surplus in one of our staple foods, and I hope that never again will we budget for anything else but a surplus. However, I suggest that there should be an early assessment of need and a programme for the 1949 acreage so as to provide enough, even at a lower average yield—if we get another good crop, there may well be another surplus—and to consider whether potato subsidies in 1949 should not be capable of reduction or alteration.
  I suggest, too, that my right hon. Friend must give immediate consideration to planning the disposal of the surplus from

  941
  the current crop. Some of the suggestions I put forward are that we should enter into contracts to supply Germany, and any other deficiency areas; and we should see whether we are doing all we can with regard to processing plants although, from an answer that my right hon. Friend gave this afternoon, it would appear that we already have enough plants and, indeed, enough dehydrated potatoes. But the matter wants looking into. There should be early decisions also regarding the quantities available for animal feeding, and distribution and prices, so that these increased supplies can be used for pigs and poultry, and consequently for planned increases in the production of both.
  This situation should be investigated now and tackled quickly. The decisions should be made as soon as possible so that we can make the maximum possible use of this bounty and ensure that none of it is wasted. If it is tackled late there will be a large wastage. A potato surplus properly used for animal feeding would remove the fear that the end of bread rationing—which we all hope to see quite soon—might lead to a great increase in the feeding of flour and bread to pigs and poultry. I hope, therefore, that this whole question will be looked into very seriously now, not only for the current potato harvest but to determine the size of the 1949 crop.
  My hon. Friend the Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. Dye) referred to the disposal of the plum crop, which is expected to be very large. We should give serious consideration to the taking of plum jam off the ration. I understand there may be sufficient pulp already in stock for a whole year's supply and there seems to be no valid reason why this should not be considered. I certainly hope that every effort will be made to ensure that this surplus—this bounty, which we are all glad to see—will be disposed of to the best possible advantage.
  The prices of vegetables and fruit and the costs of distribution are matters which I have raised before. I have indicated many times the wide margin which always existed between the price the producer received and that which the housewife pays. I have been a severe critic of the system and shall continue to be. But in the last six months there has been a change. In 1946–47 the index of fruit prices was 238 and vegetables 309, which
  942
  are higher than those of any other food stuff or, indeed, almost anything else which can be thought of. Therefore, all the strictures made by us from these benches about vegetable prices last year were fully justified.
  The position is very different today, however, and during the last few weeks we have seen fruit and vegetables of all kinds at very much more reasonable prices. My hon. Friend the Member for West Salford (Mr. Royle) said that prices were still exorbitant. That may be so, but I have seen cherries in the shops at 6d. and 1s. per lb. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tell us where."] I bought some last week at High Wycombe. Several other hon. Members on this side shared them with me. On Saturday last the average price of cherries in London was from 1s. 3d. to 1s. 6d. per lb. Other fruits also were very reasonably priced.
  The margin between the wholesale and retail prices, which has been one of the greatest difficulties, is now reduced to what I regard as very much more reasonable proportions. I think that is due entirely to the policy of my right hon. Friend in easing licensing conditions for retailers. That is a remedy which I and probably my hon. Friends can regard as only temporary. I hope my hon. Friend will tell us, in her reply, something of the Ministry's proposals for dealing with the important question of the distribution of fruit and vegetables.
  As one who has been a constant critic of the present system, who has deplored the lack of action, which has frequently quoted the wide disparity in prices to which I have referred, I think it proper to indicate that there has been a considerable improvement and change, although very much yet remains to be done in this field. It can come only if a real start is made, as it must be, at the producing end; the maximum improvements can come only with complete co-operation in packing and marketing. Allied with that there must be a complete overhaul of the wholesale and retail systems. I hope, therefore, that tonight we shall hear something at least of the proposals of the Ministry of Food to deal with this matter.
  8.37 p.m.
  Mr. Butcher: The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins), at the commencement of his

  943
  speech, suggested that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Food had established what he referred to as "complete ascendancy." Never have I seen a Minister who had established complete ascendancy stand so sheepishly and mildly at the Box as did the right hon. Gentleman today.
  I rightly warned the Minister of the potato shortage which was likely to occur in the early months of this year. Therefore, as the hon. Member for Taunton and I were companions and partners in that warning, I am sure he will allow me to say how heartily I endorse the forecast and prophecy he made that this year the Ministry's problem with potatoes will be to deal with the large surplus which will be available. I ask the Minister to follow up the suggestions which have been made, with still further warnings, by the hon. Member for Taunton.
  Given suitable weather, on which much still depends, the potato acreage and crop harvested this year may be almost a record for this country. If at the same time bread rationing is removed—although I do not think it has much effect now on the consumption of bread—there will nevertheless be a substantial surplus of potatoes. I hope the Ministry will do all they can to see that it is utilised in the best possible way. Perhaps some of the war-time expedients—the use of sugar beet factories for drying, slicing and preparing the surplus potatoes—may be possible; but now that the hon. Member for Taunton and I have united in giving warnings—and I do not doubt I may count upon the hon. Member's good support if the Ministry fail to benefit by this joint effort—
  Mr. Collins: I thought the hon. Gentleman supported me?
  Mr. Butcher: I support the hon. Member now if he will support me when the time for retribution and rebuke arises, as it probably will, about this time next year.
  The satisfactory feature of the Debate has been the lack of recrimination about who would have done better, and whether the matter of food would have been better left in the hands of Lord Woolton or in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman who is now Minister. I think the Committee has realised the grave situation of the country in relation to its food. We
  944
  are all aware that this present shortage of food is likely to continue for a considerable period. I have been very happy, therefore, to notice certain gleams of hope as to where we shall get the food on which the people of these islands are to be nourished. Some valuable suggestions have been made. My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson) spoke of the gluts of herring that come from time to time and the hon. Member for Taunton said that, after potatoes, plums are likely to be a good crop, and I endorse everything he said in that regard. The hon. Member for South-Western Norfolk (Mr. Dye) said, quite properly, that what we need in this country at present is not so much pig meat of the finest quality, but the maximum of foodstuffs from that particular kind of pig meat.
  I think the Ministry have been rather remiss in not making plans for the proper absorption of these surpluses. On the other hand, we have not taken quite as much care as we might have done in the way in which the Ministry have used some of the currency available. It has rather shocked me to learn that at a time when our own horticultural industry has been doing everything possible to increase its production, large quantities of fruit and vegetables have been coming to this country from overseas and have been purchased with currency which we could ill afford to spend and which should have been used for the purchase of those things of which we are very short, particularly fats and feedingstuffs for our pigs and poultry.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning), in a well-informed speech, suggested that we on these Benches all looked extremely well fed. The hon. Lady is falling into the habit so dear to her and many of her colleagues of endeavouring to divide the community on the basis of those who are wealthy and those who are not. That is not where the distinction lies. The distinction between the well fed and the not so well fed is between those who are as fortunate as the hon. Lady and I in having the opportunity of getting meals out, whether in restaurants or works' canteens, and that section of the community who find it extremely difficult to get their meals out.

  945
  I appeal to the Ministry to reconsider the case of the elderly and lonely people living in homes where there is only one ration book, or two ration books. On that section of the community the present burden of rationing falls with the gravest hardship. Every cut sustained by the community as a whole is shared by them, but it is extraordinarily difficult to see how they can be advantaged and receive additional food. Nevertheless, it is time something was done for them, particularly the elderly people. The position is not quite the same as it was during the war. To share in the ordinary ration and to deprive themselves of food during the war years was, for many of them, one of the principal contributions they could make to the war effort. Three years have since elapsed.
  These people have been living on short commons under difficult circumstances for a long time. The hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge (Mrs. Mann) talked about six ration books and 48 lb. of sugar. But what about the one poor old age pensioner living by herself? What can she do with 6d. worth of meat and 6d. worth of corned beef? Surely it is not beyond the wit of man or the wit of the Ministry to give them increases. In Saturday's "Times" there was a letter from an Australian lady paying tribute to the Ministry of Food for their care and skill in dividing food parcels among the old. We know that the Australians have been most generous and the Ministry of Food have done a good job of work in the distribution of these gifts. If they can do a good job in the distribution of gifts from overseas, it is time that the amount of food available in restaurants and works' canteens was diminished and the surplus made available to the elderly.
  8.46 p.m.
  Mr. A. Edward Davies: I do not intend to follow in detail the argument of the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher). But no one has done more for the old age pensioners and lower income groups than this Government. We are most anxious to improve the standard of food for the people generally and the Government are paying out £400 million or £470 million a year in subsidies to enable the classes to whom the hon. Member has referred to get a fair share I listened with great attention to the right hon. and learned Member for
  946
  Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid), but I confess I was greatly disappointed. I thought after his opening submission that he was going to show us where there were great quantities of food to be obtained of which the Government had not taken advantage. I thought he was going to disclose weaknesses in our administration which, if properly attended to, would lead to beneficial results.
  But, when the Minister of Food got up—and I noted the words of the hon. Member for Holland with Boston who said that the Minister did so "sheepishly and modestly," I do not think he was at all sheepish but he was certainly modest for that is the nature of the right hon. Gentleman—[Laughter.]—oh, yes, I think we all agree that he is a great gentleman and certainly not one from whom we expect idle boasting or conceit, and I thought he was speaking well in accordance with his nature—he gave us a good picture of what had been done, As my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) made clear, it is just 12 months since we heard of the difficulties which derived from convertibility. The Minister showed quite clearly that a great job of work has been done in the last nine difficult months in making bilateral arrangements with other countries, particularly from sources in the Empire.
  I wish to direct attention to a matter of particular interest which arises out of the journey I was privileged to make with some colleagues to West Africa a few weeks ago, the report on which has recently been made available. Since it is impossible for us, either on a Supply day or at any other time, adequately to discuss such reports, I hope that Members will take the trouble to read this Select Committee's report, which I think is unique in one sense inasmuch as it was a working party going out of the country and taking evidence on the spot. In the witnesses' evidence, if not in our recommendations and suggestions, there will be an ample reward for any trouble which hon. Members take to read the report.
  We make special reference in our report to the groundnuts scheme in West Africa and to some of the impending developments there. We saw, particularly in Northern Nigeria in the Kano district, great pyramids of groundnuts which had been waiting there for many months. Indeed we found, according to the report,

  947
  that there are some 175,000 tons of groundnuts which are waiting to be moved at this moment. Then there is the current crop to come in. As we have heard so often in this House, it is primarily a matter of having adequate transport to move the groundnuts, but if the producers cannot see some attention being given to this problem—and I am glad to hear from the Minister today that 20 locomotives and some 50 wagons have been sent out to Lagos—it will be little use expecting them to put their backs into other similar schemes to increase the production of groundnuts in West Africa. We know that the Clay Commission, which recently went out, has made certain recommendations, but unless we can overtake arrears which are now waiting in Nigeria there will be little incentive or encouragement for people to go in for further production. In fact it would be a very unwise policy to pursue such a course.
  It is most desirable that we should have this policy of co-operation between the people of the Empire in raising their standard of life and in assisting them to organise and develop on modern lines the potentialities in some of the uncharted areas—and some of them are quite uncharted at the moment—and in the process, to give us in this country and other parts of the world great contributions. Yet we have to recognise that we should be unwise to turn a blind eye on some of the basic problems of transport etc. which we find in that country. Let us make it clear that while places like West Africa or East Africa can undoubtedly make great contributions to the food supplies of the world and, we hope, of this country in particular, yet there is a problem which more immediately concerns the people on the spot. That is, the problem of giving the native population, or the indigenous population—I do not think that they much like the word "native"—a better standard of life. There is much malnutrition in many parts of our Empire, in some of the Colonies, and we have a duty to the people on the spot.
  We must not convey the impression that we are merely skimming off the best which their countries can produce and are unaware of what is happening to them. I do not think that that is the policy of this
  948
  Government. This Government have done a great deal along the lines of colonial development to help the people on the spot. I should like to ask the Minister in regard to this matter of getting foodstuffs from the Empire, particularly West Africa, to assure us that the people who have the job of producing the food, are getting a reasonable price for what they produce. I know that we have seen a great rise in the price of cocoa because of the American buying. We know how it has affected our own households. I know that machinery exists to put the money back to some extent into the Colonies which produce the cocoa. I am glad to hear that. I should like to see the same arrangements and the same machinery in operation in relation to other primary products. I have in mind oilseeds and even groundnuts, and also bananas from the Cameroons for example.
  Let us be quite sure that in working together with the people of the Colonies we are giving them a fair deal; that they, as a working population, have the first claim to see that their own children and families are properly fed and that if there is any surplus it is properly paid for. In connection with oilseeds I am not quite certain that a good and fair price has been observed in times past; at least it has not been paid to the producers. I understand, and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will confirm this, that in respect of oilseeds production, we have fixed a price in accordance with what can be got in the world market and not related to the cost of production.
  Certainly we have more recently paid out something better than the producers used to get but there is still a great difference between the price we have paid to the producer and the price we have received for the commodity. What I want to know is that this money, this surplus, or profit, or whatever we like to call it, is going back, either to the people themselves for the uplifting of their standard of life, or for the development of the industries. If that is done in regard to all those primary commodities in the Empire, we shall get their support. After listening carefully to the contributions to this Debate I think that the Government have no need to apologise. They are doing a good job of work under the most difficult circumstances and I feel that the country is behind them.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. De la Bère: In accordance with my usual practice I shall be very brief. I shall recognise the self-denying ordinance and I shall not follow the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. Edward Davies) in his remarks about groundnuts, bananas and cocoa, although I am very tempted to take him up on the question of cocoa.
  I wish to stress one thing, something that affects my inland Division, and that is plums. The question of plums has already been dealt with, and if I may say so, of the two hon. Members who dealt with it, it has been dealt with quite well. Nevertheless, to a very large number of people in Worcestershire the question of plums is the question of their very livelihood and also a question of good fruit being allowed to waste. The Ministry of Food knew quite well earlier this year that, unless there was a frost, there would be a really good plum crop which could be converted into jam, if they gave the facilities. So far as I am aware, they have done nothing at all in the matter. There is plum pulp from 1947 still unused in the country. Plum jam is in the shops. It is difficult to sell it. I have asked both the Minister of Food and the Parliamentary Secretary over and over again, to take plum jam off the ration and also off points. Why not let this excellent plum jam be used by the housewife without penalising her to give up the points she needs for other things? Why let it go on deteriorating? No sane answer has ever been given to these points during Question Time.
  My constituents have especially asked me to stress this point. What is the use of having good fruit in this country and allowing it to go to waste? I do not wish to deal with figures. I know that they are well known to the Minister. But it is certain that many thousands of tons of good plums will be wasted as the result of the absolute failure of the Ministry to appreciate this position, about which they have had full and lasting information from all parts of the country where plums are grown. Will the Minister really try to deal with this matter and tell the truth about what is being done in order to ensure that these plums and the sugar to use with them are made available to housewives in all parts of the country? Families with
  950
  numbers of children have not too much jam today. They could very well do with an extra pound or two.
  The jam is there, but the real trouble is that this Government do not care a bit, so long as their orders and regulations are carried out. They do not care whether it is wasted, or whether it goes down the drain, or where it goes. They say, "Oh, but Form 1990 has not been filled in and we cannot do anything about it." My plea tonight is for the growers, and for the housewives who want this product. The jam is there to be made if this Government will give them the sugar. Let the jam be distributed without points and off the ration. Let us have something in our homes which is sweet, because I am bothered if there is very much in our lives today which is sweet. I say, in all sincerity, let us have plum jam de-rationed.
  9.0 p.m.
  Mr. Turton: This interesting Debate has been taken out of the run of ordinary Supply Debates by the startling disclosure by the Minister of Food of the increase in food subsidies this year. We must face the fact that we are dealing with an Estimate which, owing to that disclosure, is now out of date. The amount of money to be spent under the Estimate is now £80 million more—
  Mr. Strachey: If the hon. Gentleman had followed my remarks at the beginning, he would have seen that that does not follow at all. Owing to the Andes Agreement there is no correspondence between the figure here in the Estimate and the subsidy figure, whatever that turns out to be. I explained at some length that the £84 million in last year's Estimate is for food which arrives in this year. To couple that with this year, does not follow at all.
  Mr. Turton: I think that the Minister did less than justice to his own figures. If he states that a figure of £480 million is to be spent on subsidies, that must be reflected in the figures.
  Mr. Strachey: Would the hon. Member forgive me once more?
  Mr. Turton: No. In Subhead H the Minister will find that he has put down his subsidies at just over £300 million. He is then going to take out from the

  951
  Andes Agreement another £84 million which brings it up to the level expected by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget statement, of £400 million. Now we are told that that is to be increased this year by £80 million. That is a major departure in financial policy which I should have expected the Chancellor of the Exchequer and not the Minister of Food to have announced to the country. The whole Budget, and the whole of the Budget surplus, hinged on that level of £400 million which the Chancellor stated, as reported in HANSARD of 6th April, at column 54, as being the decided policy of the Government. If the Minister wishes to correct what he stated earlier this afternoon, and the subsidies are not going to run out at £80 million more, of course, I shall be happy to give way, because we are under the impression that they will.
  Mr. Strachey: I am very grateful. I certainly did not state anything to the effect that the subsidies will run out at £80 million more than some figure which has been given at some other time. The only statement I made on the subsidy figure was that it was running at the moment at the rate of £470 million and if there was no change in the remainder of the year, in either the price at which we buy food or the price at which it is sold in this country, the subsidies would, therefore, come out at £470 million. That is the meaning of "running at the rate of," but it would be quite wrong to assume from that that I have stated that the subsidies would be £470 million. That does not follow at all.
  Mr. Turton: That, I think, has made the position much more clear than it was earlier. It is a pity that the Minister did not make that clear in his original statement. We were told on 6th April that the subsidies were to amount to £400 million. I gather from what the Minister has now said that there has been no change of policy; in other words, that at the end of the year the subsidies will still be £400 million. We must know either from the Chancellor of the Exchequer or from the Minister. What other purpose had he when he made a statement to the Committee and to the country that the subsidies were running at the rate of £70 million more at the present time? Quite clearly the House, and not this Committee
  952
  will have to deal with this matter and will have to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer as well as the Minister of Food what is the policy of the Government.
  In opening this Debate my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) made a great point—and I thought he made it very well—on the secrecy of these accounts. It is all very well to talk about this being a vote of £320 million. It is nothing of the sort. It is a vote of more than £1,340 million. The difficulty is that the details of the operations of the Minister of Food are not available to us until two years after the transactions are completed. I do not know why, when presenting an Estimate for £1,340 million, the Minister could not tell us on what this money is to be spent. We have to refer to trading accounts of two years ago, and therefore we have to form our guide as to his stewardship and base our inquiries on those trading accounts of two years ago. I would like the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary to bring them up to date.
  I will try to explain what I mean by giving an illustration concerning cereals and feedingstuffs in these accounts. In that year, we suffered a loss on cereals and feedingstuffs of £39 million. We bought and paid for feedingstuffs to the amount of £186 million, and we sold those feedingstuffs for £151 million, which leaves £36 million, plus, naturally, some £3 million extra for salaries. The first question I want to ask is how far was that subsidy of £36 million directed to the feedingstuffs we have bought for the United Kingdom and how far was it directed to the subsidy for feedingstuffs which we bought for delivery abroad? It is a remarkable factor, of which I do not think the country is aware, that, in that particular year—I do not know if it was an extraordinary year, but it is the only year for which we have details—we bought just as much cereals and feedingstuffs for delivery abroad as we bought for consumption in this country. Indeed, when we come to particularise the feedingstuffs and we take barley, for example, we find that we spent £1,750,000 for barley for consumption in the United Kingdom, and £12 million for barley for delivery abroad.
  The other figure I will take is that for maize. The Committee will remember

  953
  that 1946 was an unfortunate year for British farmers for maize. We could hardly get any maize at all for feeding-stuffs. In fact, in that trading year, we got 212,000 tons. During that same trading year, we learn from these figures, the Minister bought for delivery abroad 267,000 tons—a god deal more than was bought for the United Kingdom farmer. When I asked the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary for details of these transactions on 14th June, she gave me figures representing 197,000 tons of the 267,000 tons. Some 69,000 tons had been bought and sent to Holland for making starch, perhaps for the collars of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, who, I am sorry to say, is no longer sitting alongside the Minister of Food, although his Parliamentary Secretary is here.
  These 197,000 tons were sold to Eire and Germany at a price of £14 6s. a ton, but the average price which the Minister had to pay for his maize during that trading year was not £14 6s., but 15s. per ton. Therefore, I want to ask the hon. Lady why she operates these transactions for getting feedingstuffs abroad at such a considerable loss to the Exchequer. It would appear to me that she made a loss of 50 per cent. on those transactions. I think it should be made clear by her, because after her reply of 14th June, I received a number of letters from people who asked why the Minister was paying about £20 per ton for maize and selling it at a loss. For the whole of the trading operations in that year, 1946, it would appear that on sales of feedingstuffs abroad the hon. Lady made a loss of something like £2 million. Today the Minister of Food told us that he was no longer buying feedingstuffs for the Irish Free State. I want to be quite clear on that. Does that mean that he is no longer continuing this operation on which he was embarking in 1946, of buying feedingstuffs for delivery abroad? I expect the hon. Lady can give us that further detail when she replies.
  While I am on this subject of Government trading, there is one other point I would like to have made quite clear. According to my present information, no feedingstuffs can be bought abroad for delivery to the United Kingdom except by the Minister of Food and his officials, but feedingstuffs can be bought for
  954
  delivery to foreign countries and also, indeed, to Dominion countries, not only by the Minister of Food but by private enterprise. Therefore, we have the curious position that the foreign consumer has an advantage in that he has buying for him not only the officials of the Ministry but also those private enterprise firms who have great knowledge of these markets; yet the British consumer is limited and is not allowed to have a private trader abroad buying for his interests. That point should be remedied by the Minister now. He should allow the grain trade as well as his officials to buy food abroad in order that we should get increased quantities of feedingstuffs.
  It is quite clear that the future of out supplies of meat, bacon and eggs depends entirely on the Minister's efforts to increase feedingstuffs for home agriculture. The whole of the Government's policy last August was directed to that end, and I think it was well put by the Prime Minister when he spoke in the House on 6th August, 1947. He said:
  "The Government are setting a high target before agriculture—nothing less than an extra £100 million worth of food by 1951–52, an increase of 20 per cent. on present output. … It will involve an immense effort, on the part not only of the agricultural community, but of the Government itself, who will have to see that the industry is provided with the tools for the job … The maximum supply of feedingstuffs must be obtained."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th August. 1947; Vol. 441, c. 1497–8.]
  That was in August. Has the Minister been efficient in providing the farmer with tools for the job? On the 11th March, he told us:
  "We have bought at this moment the particular quantities which we thought were the right ones which we could afford and which it was wise to buy at this time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1948: Vol. 448, c. 1479.]
  I thought these were very menacing words—very menacing indeed. I remember that the Lord President of the Council, when he was dilating to the county agricultural executive committees, said that some dollars would be available for this purpose, but now it has got down to "which we could afford and which it was wise to buy." At the end of March, we had the disappointing statement by the Minister of Agriculture:
  "It is therefore impossible to increase rations for any class of livestock for the rationing period beginning 1st May, 1948. … I am aware that our inability to improve

  955
  ration scales or to widen immediately the scope of the rationing scheme for pigs and poultry will be a cause of disappointment—"[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th March, 1948; Vol. 448, c. 3355–56.]
  Indeed, it caused not only disappointment but dislocation to all the plans of the agricultural industry. The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) earlier today said that in 1939 he advocated that the Minister of Agriculture should be placed under the command of the Minister of Food. It would appear that that is what has actually happened in this Government during recent months.
  Let us look at the picture which we get from the Statistical Digest. It shows how much food has been produced in the first quarter of this year compared with the first four months of last year. Less beef, less mutton, less bacon has been produced in the first four months of 1948 than in the similar period of 1947. The figures are there and cannot be challenged, and yet in August we had this great agricultural drive which depended on feedingstuffs. I do not blame the Minister of Agriculture, or his Parliamentary Secretary, for that failure. The culprits are the Minister of Food and his Parliamentary Secretary.
  Captain Crookshank: They ought to go.
  Mr. Turton: Then the Minister of Food gave his view on feedingstuffs—coarse grains have got so expensive, he said, and one spends £1 on coarse grain and gets back only 6s. 8d. in beef. Never in my life have I heard such a misleading statement by any responsible Minister dealing with this problem of feedingstuffs. How can anybody say, "You pour coarse grains into an animal and balance the result in beef"? Beef cattle require grass and cakes. I would have thought the Minister would have realised that the coarse grains we are asking for are not for the raising of beef cattle but for the production of eggs and bacon. Why this Government is failing in this feedingstuffs policy is because the poultry farmer and the pig farmer require barley and maize which have not been received in sufficient quantities for the Minister of Agriculture to increase, or indeed to review, the antiquated system of rationing, which, at the moment, depends on figures of the year 1939.
  956
  I never could understand why the Minister of Agriculture, who must have learned a good deal about the agricultural industry under my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson), had not previously gone back and changed this antiquated 1939 system. Now I know the reason—it is because the Minister of Food tells him that, working it out in coarse grains for beef, we should not get more coarse grains for producing bacon and eggs in this country. What are the facts? Let us look at poultry. If we could have doubled the imports of maize this year—[HON. MEMBERS: "If."] I quite agree, and I shall come to the practicability. If we could, we should have produced twice as many eggs in this country as the Minister imported from overseas at the same price. At today's price, 600,000 tons of maize cost £14 million. The Minister of Food has bought £14,500,000 worth of eggs from overseas in four months of this year. Would it not have been better to have had maize in this country at a cost of £14 million, so that we should have had double the amount of eggs?
  Mr. Strachey: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? Does he forget that we also bought over 2 million tons of coarse grains as well as eggs?
  Mr. Turton: The figures of imports of maize are in the Trade and Navigation accounts. They are not wrong. We have imported only 600,000 tons of maize. If we had doubled our imports of maize, we could have produced 2,300 million eggs. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman spent that money in importing foreign eggs—1,004 million foreign eggs. I regard that as bad management, and I hope he will reconsider that matter. There was a perfectly fair interruption from hon. Gentlemen opposite, who asked whether the maize was available. What is the position? Argentina in June had 1,250,000 tons of maize surplus from last year's harvest. Argentina is now harvesting another crop of maize, and will have a surplus of round about 4,000,000 tons, according to the latest figure. Therefore, the maize was available, if the Minister had thought fit to buy it. However, in the Minister's view, coarse grains are too expensive.
  Let me turn for a moment or two to the other side of the picture, the protein

  957
  side. I was disappointed that the Minister gave us no details of all of what we are doing in the matter of buying oil cakes. I agree that under the Andes Agreement he is going to provide us with 90,000 tons of linseed cakes and meal. That, however, is only a very small side of the picture. We want not only the cakes and meal, but the linseed imported here, so that our mills can be used to crush the linseed and get both the oil and the cakes from it. Will the hon. Lady tell us what we are doing in order to get more linseed cakes and meal in this country? Quite true, we cannot get it from Argentina, for the Argentine Government have banned the export of linseed. But only next door in Uruguay there is this year a 44 per cent. increase in the production of linseed. I understand, too, that there are some 25,000 tons in Mexico available for export. Perhaps, the hon. Lady will give us that side of the picture?
  I turn to the question of groundnuts. I am not going into the question of the East African groundnuts scheme—whether the mistakes were made by the United Africa Company, and whether they did not look after their storekeeping, or whether they were due to the extravagant ambitions of the Minister of Food. If he can get groundnuts from East Africa in sufficient quantities in sufficient time, I shall be the first to congratulate him. What I am far more concerned about is what is happening on the other side of Africa where there are some 300,000 tons of groundnuts that have not been moved as speedily as they would have been moved if the—[HON. MEMBERS: "No railway engines."]—if the Socialist Government had been efficient. It is no good blinking the facts.
  I do not say that it is the Minister of Food who is entirely responsible. He told us that he had congratulated the Vulcan Works when the locomotives were built. I would rather that he had pointed out to the Vulcan Works how important it was that the locomotives should have been delivered when asked for, which was in 1945 and not 1948. It is true that in 1945 the Ministry was still working under Sir Ben Smith. [Interruption.] I said that the Ministry of Food was working under Sir Ben Smith. There has been a grave delay over this matter. The reason why we are short of groundnuts is because of
  958
  that delay made by one or other of the members of the Socialist Government.
  I admit that the right hon. Gentleman did in certain cases provide us with a large quantity of foodstuffs. I give him credit for that, but what I cannot understand is why the public get no benefit from them. Will he explain to me, or will the hon. Lady who is to reply explain, what happened to the currants and raisins? The housewives in my constituency would like to know. During the first four months of this year, there have been imported some 50 million lb. of currants, enough for 1 lb. per ration book. In my constituency, the only allocation since Christmas has been 2 oz. of currants per ration book. Last year, 160 million lb. of raisins were imported, enough for 3½ lb. per ration book, and only half a pound per ration book less than pre-war; and yet in the first quarter of this year my constituents have had an allocation of only one ounce per ration book. It may be that hon. Gentlemen who represent other constituencies have been more fortunate. I want to find out. Perhaps Dundee and Fulham and the industrial centres have had more. The feeling among the grocers and the housewives in the North of England is that these large stocks of food are being hoarded for what?—Christmas or is it for a General Election—[Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen cheer that prospect. Those who believe that they are not getting their rations think that they are juggling with the rations for political purposes.
  The right hon. Gentleman was asked today why he did not take off bread rationing. It was put on as a precautionary measure when stocks were low. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster gave a pledge—or, perhaps, it was a confidence that he should not have given—when he said that directly stocks were built up, bread rationing would be taken off. What is the position today? The right hon. Gentleman will not disclose his stocks. I put this figure to him: that the stocks of wheat in this country on 31st March were 1¼ million tons.
  Mr. Strachey: That is a guess.
  Mr. Turton: If the Minister can deny it, the Parliamentary Secretary will say so in her speech. If it is an accurate figure, as I believe it to be, then there was no reason why bread rationing should

  959
  not have been taken off at that time. What are the figures today? Sir John Boyd Orr, who was quoted by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, stated in February that the European crop would be so million tons, a rise of 10 million tons on last year. In the estimates given by the United States at the end of June the European crop was put at 54 million tons. The estimated carry-over of wheat from the four major exporting countries is put today at 9½ million tons, three million tons over what it was last year. If those figures are accurate, why is this tomfoolery of bread rationing continued? I regretted very much that the Minister not only refused to make an announcement today about bread rationing, but also stated that the lowering of the extraction rate would be the second thing he would do. If that extraction rate has to be lowered, it will mean more feeding-stuffs to the farms. Therefore, I do beg the Minister of Food, or his Parliamentary Secretary, without delay to alter that extraction rate.
  One further point on the question of fair rationing. I cannot believe rationing to be fair when I find that the miner is getting a ration of twice as much meat as, and 21 more B.U.s than, the agricultural worker. I do not deny the miner any right for more food; I agree that the getting of coal is of great importance today. But so, too, is the getting of food. Why have we got this system whereby the agricultural worker cannot get his extra ration as of right? Why cannot he and his wife draw their increased rations just as the miner and his wife do? There is a terrible inequality between one industry and the other. Why is it that in the towns fish and chips can be got in every street—
  Mr. Sparks: Where?
  Mr. Turton: Fulham, Dundee—I cannot go into a whole gazetteer at this stage of the evening. In my rural area, when a fish and chip licence is applied for it is normally refused. It is because this Minister has only succeeded with his peaches, his grapes, and his pomegranates. It is quite right that we should let him know that he is the idol of the barrow-boy, but that he has not got the confidence of the housewife, the food producer or the shopkeeper of this country.
  960
  It is because he has not that confidence, and has not merited that confidence, that I move to reduce the Vote.
  I beg to move, to reduce Subhead A (1) by £1,000.
  9.35 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill): I think the Committee will agree that until the winding-up speech of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) the contributions made to this Debate on the Estimates had been notable for constructive criticism. I was surprised on listening to the hon. Member, who accused my right hon. Friend and myself of being the culprits, that he did not make one constructive criticism. The comments he made and the questions he asked have been answered at this Box time after time, and if he had been in his place he would have heard them.
  He asked my right hon. Friend whether we were giving the farmers the tools. I think most hon. Members on both sides of the Committee know that my Department have made every effort to produce feedingstuffs for the farmers of this country. May I tell the hon. Member the exact amount of maize, oats and barley that we have obtained from the Argentine, Russia and Australia this year in contracts—
  Mr. J. S. C. Reid: In contracts?
  Dr. Summerskill: Yes, and I am pleased to say that they are keeping up to schedule. From the Argentine 1,272,000 tons, from Russia, 750,000 tons, from Australia 297,000 tons. Yet the hon. Member comes to this Committee and charges us with neglecting our duties. He asked whether when we resell feeding-stuffs abroad—in fact, he did not ask, he charged us with selling feedingstuffsabroad at a loss. We never do this. Feedingstuffs abroad are never sold at a loss. He then asked why we did not use private agents. That question has been asked on many occasions in this House. It has been suggested time after time that if we look carefully there is some expert somewhere who knows where he can find certain commodities which our experts have been unable to discover.
  Mr. Turton rose—
  Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman has had longer than me; he has denied

  961
  me five minutes, and it will be practically impossible for me to cover all the ground. He must agree with me that Mr. Rank, who buys our cereals, is a man who has spent his life in the cereal world. I agree there are other experts who no doubt are prepared to take Mr. Rank's place, and that is always our argument when hon. Members opposite ask, as I think, an hon. Member asked, on the last Food Estimates, "Are you sure these men are politically in accord with you and are really looking for food?" There are others, and these experts of ours know full well that it is an honour to serve a big Government Department. Mr. Rank, like the other food experts we employ, is always on his toes, and I cannot believe that the hon. Member, if pressed, could give us the name of a man who knows where he can obtain cereals in a place of which Mr. Rank is ignorant.
  The hon. Gentleman also asked whether we sent coarse grains to Eire. We do not. On oil cake—again he should know that some of these questions he has asked are elementary. He should know that oil cake is subject to I.E.F.C. allocation, and obviously my Department is taking the whole of our allocation. He asked why we did not bring linseed to this country. We cannot compel the Argentine to sell us linseed. I agree that they did before the war. Before the war they sent linseed to this country, we crushed it, and we used the oil, and the residue material went for meal. Now, however, the Argentine insist upon keeping their linseed at home and crushing it themselves. He asked what else we were doing to acquire oil cake. We are, of course, in negotiation with other countries, and I can assure him that we have contacted every source.
  He asked me about currants and raisins—where are the currants and raisins for his constituency which my right hon. Friend and I enjoy in Dundee and Fulham? I think hon. Gentlemen opposite know, after my three years as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, that I am always willing to look into any specific case. I do not think any hon. Member opposite, however hostile he may feel towards me, can say that when he gives me a case I am not prepared to examine it. If the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton had told me that in his constituency there were not
  962
  many currants or raisins on the shelf, I would have made immediate inquiries and, if there had been a shortage, I would have had some directed to his constituency. I bear him no animosity and will inquire tomorrow to see whether there are any currants in Thirsk. I should remind him, whilst on this subject, that dried fruits come from the U.S.A. and that, as he knows, we have not imported any food from there since last August.
  I want now to answer questions raised by hon. Members during the Debate. The right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) and I have often faced each other across this Table. I must admit that I listened to his speech today with some gratification as it was the first time that he did not harshly criticise my Ministry. I can assure him that this is not a taunt: I was impressed by the fact that he appreciated some of our difficulties. He refrained from criticising the groundnuts scheme. Those hon. Members who have been present throughout the Debate will agree that every speech on both sides dealt with matters of concern to the whole country. Every hon. Member tried to approach the problem in a constructive fashion.
  I was encouraged to hear hon. Members on both sides discussing the latest report of the F.A.O. The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) devoted the whole of his speech to F.A.O. The hon. Members for Epping (Mrs. Manning) and West Salford (Mr. Royle) reminded the Committee that we must realise that, although we are now concerned with obtaining enough food for this country, we must think along a different line. Hon. Members have perhaps forgotten that this is the last report of Sir John Boyd Orr He has resigned from the Directorship of the Organisation and it would be appropriate on this occasion to pay him a tribute. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I have had the opportunity of representing this Government at two conferences of F.A.O. and I have watched delegates from every part of the world listen to Sir John Boyd Orr with respect, admiration and affection. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite have worked with him and I believe that the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) has looked at the draft of his books before the country has seen them. Sir

  963
  John Boyd Orr is not only a great scientist and a great humanitarian, but has been one of our finest ambassadors. It is said that posterity remembers those who benefit posterity. If that is so, Sir John Boyd Orr will never be forgotten.
  So far as the work of F.A.O. is concerned, I have been asked whether we are supporting this Organisation. I can say categorically that, ever since the inception of F.A.O., we have done everything in our power to support it. We have entered into long-term contracts with producers. Sir John Boyd Orr has always stressed that every country should negotiate long-term contracts if at all possible. We have ratified the International Wheat Agreement. I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Epping who asked me why we were now withdrawing from the agreement. I have to say plainly to the Committee that the United States have failed to ratify the International Wheat Agreement and in view of the fact that the United States are the greatest wheat producers in the world, we have no option but to withdraw. The Committee knows that we have a big agricultural expansion programme and that that accords with the principles of F.A.O.
  We have heard tonight and at other times about the groundnuts scheme and my right hon. Friend has told the Committee about the development of the Queensland scheme. All these things accord with Sir John Boyd Orr's teachings. I did not think it quite fair of the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery to criticise my right hon. Friend and to read out parts of speeches to suggest that his approach was more nationalistic than inter-nationalistic. I think the fact that my right hon. Friend has been responsible for initiating the groundnuts scheme and the Queensland scheme itself shows that he has an international approach to these problems.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman is quite right; we know that the population of the world is increasing by 25 million a year. We must also remember that the great Dominions of Pakistan and India have said that they intend to eliminate illiteracy. When illiteracy is eliminated from these great countries it will inevitably mean that those millions will demand a standard of living comparable to that enjoyed by the people of the West. Something else will follow. Not only will the
  964
  population increase, but their expectation of life will increase. I dare to prophesy that the Malthusian doctrine which was discredited in the 19th century will perhaps be vindicated at the end of the 20th century.
  I welcome the contributions made by hon. Members opposite in the discussion on the groundnuts scheme. One hon. Member who has recently been to see the scheme in operation apologised for criticising the details. I think everyone here agrees that it is no good crying over spilt milk. We recognise the mistakes, we recognise the delays, but we must realise that the conception is a right one.
  My time is limited and I must say something about potatoes because the right hon. Gentleman said that a statement should have been made long ago. I arrived at the House to make a statement on the Adjournment, but unfortunately, the Business of the House finished about one o'clock and the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne), who was to raise the matter on the Adjournment, had not arrived—
  Captain Crookshank: The hon. Lady could have made a statement.
  Dr. Summerskill: I want the Committee to realise—
  Earl Winterton: Why did the hon. Lady not make a statement?
  Dr. Summerskill: If the noble Lord will try to be a little quiet he will hear a statement—[Interruption.] If he will exercise a little patience, within my limited time I will make a statement—
  Earl Winterton: The hon. Lady has had three hours—
  Dr. Summerskill: The Committee must realise by now that the loss incurred must be looked upon as an insurance premium against a serious shortage that might have occurred at the beginning of the year. I remember that last year on the Estimates hon. Members opposite warned my right hon. Friend that there might be a potato shortage. I think it was the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Baker White) who warned us also that we might have the Colorado beetle. We realised that there would be a shortage, we accepted the warning of hon. Members opposite and we rationed potatoes in

  965
  November. At that time the only imports to which we could look forward were from Northern Ireland and Africa. We therefore invited private importers to bring in potatoes from the Mediterranean countries, which they did, but, despite those precautions, we realised that there might still be a shortage. We therefore sent our representatives to Europe and by April we had made arrangements with Denmark, Sweden, Holland and Poland for imports.
  I think that the farmer Members of this House will agree with me that it is impossible to predict the weather. Here we are debating the Food Estimates on a day in a July which we believe is perhaps one of the coldest for 40 years. Hon. Members will recollect the floods and the frosts last year. At the beginning of this year we could not anticipate whether we would have a warm or a frosty spring. Therefore we imported more potatoes. It turned out to be a warm spring. We agree that the potatoes deteriorated quickly and we decided to export supplies to Germany and also use some for stock. I want to assure the Committee that no potatoes were allowed to rot. I should like hon. Members opposite to make a note of these figures. The total tonnage of old ware potatoes diverted to Germany was 43,000 tons and that sold for stock feeding amounted to 24,000 tons. These together represented less than one per cent. of the total supplies, or four days' consumption. This is the measure of what some people have called the potato scandal, but which I call a potato insurance. From 1940 to 1947 the average disposals for stock feeding and factory use were 3.5 per cent. of the average annual total supply. Perhaps with that explanation the Committee will agree that my Ministry did the right thing in order to ensure that the people of this country should be adequately fed.
  I want to turn to some of the questions which have been asked. Time is limited so I will take some of the most important.
  Mr. De Ia Bère: What about plum jam?
  Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) raised the question of bread rationing, which my right hon. Friend has answered. The hon. Member also suggested that there was a great deal of black marketing
  966
  owing to the fact that many ration books had been lost. That allegation has been made before. The loss of ration books in my opinion varies in direct ratio to the number of rationed foods. Perhaps hon. Members who are not housewives will not appreciate that point, but during the last year or two we have rationed bread and potatoes, which means that the housewife takes her book out every day instead of every week. That means that the risk of losing her ration book is much greater. I think that answers the hon. Member's question.
  My hon. Friend the Member for West Salford asked me whether too many calves were being killed. One cannot have one's milk and drink it. We cannot have the milk which we are enjoying today, unless the calves are killed. The people of this country are consuming 50 per cent. more milk than before the war and still the demand continues. That is why we are continuing to kill calves. My hon. Friend asked about Canadian meat being replaced by bacon. That was because the Canadians asked us to alter the contract. We were perfectly prepared that they should do so.
  The hon. Member for Epping and the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir D. Robertson) raised the question of snoek. I am very pleased that they did, and I do deplore the fact that some hon. Members have criticised this import. The hon. Member for Streatham suggested that we should encourage the consumption of herrings rather than that of snoek. I think it is quite clear that, whereas the herring is a perishable food, snoek is a non-perishable food which can be stored by the housewife. The suggestion that herrings should be sold in the grocers' shops during a period of glut would be difficult to adopt, because if the housewife is not prepared to buy herrings from the fishmonger, where they may be kept under better conditions, perhaps, than in the grocers' shops, she will not be prepared to go next door.
  The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mr. Dye) asked whether we would allow bigger pigs to be sold. We do not encourage the rearing of fat pigs because we are anxious to have the bacon as lean as possible The pigs are not produced for fat, but for their bacon.
  I was asked by one hon. Member when the Bodinnar Report was to be published.

  967
  I wish to inform the Committee that Sir John Bodinnar asked that this report should not be published, because he would have information from the black market and it might prove a little embarrassing. The hon. and gallant Member for Fylde (Colonel Lancaster) asked about chickens. I think he got his figures rather mixed. The right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) has also given some figures. He said that there had been a decrease of 10 million poultry since 1945. In fact, there are 7¼ million more young birds under six months than there were 12 months ago. I think that is the answer.
  Mr. De la Bère: May we have an answer about the plums?
  Dr. Summerskill: I welcome the presence of the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère). He always turns up at Question time. He always tells me he will raise matters on the Adjournment. I always look forward to meeting him at this time at the Box, but he is
  never there. Tonight this is an exception to the rule. I recognise that the plum question must be faced by my Department, and we are facing it today. We did encourage the jam manufacturers to buy a large quantity of plum pulp last year, and there is the question of canned plums to be considered as well. They still have a great deal on their hands, and now we are told that there is to be a big plum harvest. We are trying to help the canners in order that more plums shall be canned, and we are considering how we can dispose of the plum glut. But I would remind the hon. Gentleman who asked for jam to be de-rationed that if we did this it would mean great demands for sugar and therefore we have had to refuse. I would assure him, however, that we are now considering this question and I hope that, probably soon, we may be able to make an announcement which will help the position.
  Question put, "That Subhead A (1) be reduced by £1,000."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 117; Noes, 256.

  Division No. 256.]

  AYES.

  [9.59 p.m.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Amory, D. Heathcoat

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Herbert, Sir A. P.

  Odey, G. W.

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Pickthorn, K.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Howard, Hon. A.

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Birch, Nigel

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Prescott, Stanley

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Bower, N.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr J. G.

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

  Butcher, H. W.

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Carson, E.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A.

  Sanderson, Sir F.

  Channon, H.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Linstead, H. N.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Corbet, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Low, A. R. W.

  Strauss, Henry (English Universities)

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Lucas, Major Sir J.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  De la Bère, R.

  MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Drayson, G. B.

  McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Drewe, C.

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Touche, G. C.

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Turton, R. H.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Eccles, D. M.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Wakefield, Sir W. W.

  Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

  Marples, A. E.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Ward, Hon. G. R.

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Medlicott, Brigadier F.

  White, J. B. (Canterbury)

  Fraser H. C. P. (Stone)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir I.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Gage, C.

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Gates, Maj. E. E.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cir'cester)

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Nicholson, G.

  Major Conant and

  Brigadier Mackeson.

  NOES.

  Acland, Sir Richard

  Gibbins, J.

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith South)

  Gilzean, A.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  O'Brien, T.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Paget, R. T.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Paling Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Alpass, J. H.

  Grey, C. F.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  Parker, J.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Gunter, R. J.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Ayles, W. H.

  Guy, W. H.

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Baird, J.

  Hale, Leslie

  Pearson, A.

  Balfour, A.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

  Peart, T. F.

  Barstow, P. G.

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Perrins, W.

  Barton, C.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Popplewell, E.

  Battley, J. R.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Harrison, J.

  Price, M. Philips

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Proctor, W. T.

  Berry, H.

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Randall, H. E.

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Ranger, J.

  Binns, J.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Reeves, J.

  Blackburn, A. R.

  Holman, P.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Richards, R.

  Boardman, H.

  Hoy, J.

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

  Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Robens, A.

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Bramall, E. A.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

  Royle, C.

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

  Sargood, R.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Scott-Elliott, W.

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Segal, Dr. S.

  Burden, T. W.

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

  Shurmer, P.

  Byers, Frank

  Jenkins, R. H.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Callaghan, James

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Simmons, C. J.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Champion, A. J.

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Kendall, W. D.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Kenyon, C.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Coldrick, W.

  King, E. M.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Collindridge, F.

  Kinley, J.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Collins, V. J.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Lambeth)

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Cove, W. G.

  Levy, B. W.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Symonds, A. L.

  Daggar, G.

  Lipson, D. L.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Daines, P.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Longden, F.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Lyne, A. W.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  McAdam, W.

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Deer, G.

  McGovern, J.

  Thomas, John R. (Dover)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Mack, J. D.

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Delargy, H. J.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Diamond, J.

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

  Titterington, M. F.

  Dobbie, W.

  McLeavy, F.

  Tolley, L.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Donovan, T.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Viant, S. P.

  Edelman, M.

  Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

  Wadsworth, G.

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

  Messer, F.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Weitzman, D.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Evans, John (Ogmore)

  Monslow, W.

  West, D. G.

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Moody, A. S.

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Farthing, W. J.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

  Wigg, George

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Moyle, A.

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Freeman, J. (Watford)

  Murray J. D.

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Neal, H. (Clay Cross)

  Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

  970

  971

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Woods, G. S.

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Wyatt, W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Wills, Mrs. E. A.

  Yates, V. F.

  Mr. Snow and

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Mr. George Wallace

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Original Question again proposed.
  It being after Ten o'Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again tomorrow.

  PROPRIETARY MEDICINES (PRICES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Popplewell.]
  10.11 p.m.
  Mr. Skeffington: I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health will realise that I am raising this subject tonight mainly to see whether it is possible to obtain the reaction of the Minister of Health to the proprietary medicine industry now that the new National Health Act is in operation. Frankly, I do not expect to get very far, because despite the number of far more distinguished Members than myself who in the past have raised this issue, very little has been done with regard to this industry, whose capital probably is more than £100 million, and which makes some of its profits, at any rate, out of human credulity and a good deal of human suffering. Yet it is almost uncontrolled even in this year of grace 1948.
  Although we have not gone very far in the past, I think it is necessary that those of us who are interested in the subject should keep it in front of the House, especially at a time like the present when we are just beginning to operate the new National Health scheme. On the face of it, it seems a little ludicrous and a little illogical that we should be spending possibly £160 a million a year on the provision of services to look after the health of our people while our 'buses, newspapers and hoardings all over the country carry certain inducements which may lead people not to take full advantage of the scheme. They may, in fact, be discouraged from taking full advantage of the scheme. Before the war, the advertisement costs of this industry were put some
  972
  where in the region of just under £3 million, and I have no reason to suppose that they are any less today.
  In raising the subject, I would like to make three points clear. I am in no way dealing tonight with those proprietary preparations which are advertised in medical and scientific journals. Even here, of course, not every so-called ethical preparation is above suspicion, but, nevertheless, professional men ought to be sufficiently qualified to use their own discretion, and that is not the subject which which I want to concern myself. I am interested only in those proprietary remedies which are or have been advertised directly to the public. Even in this group there are, of course, some preparations which are sold at not too unreasonable a cost, and which may do the consumer some little good or at any rate no positive harm. Like most things in life, there are very few studies which are completely in black, and I am perfectly willing to recognise that there must be some well-known remedies that can be used without causing any great harm to the individual.
  Nevertheless, having said that I think the Ministry of Health ought to realise, as I have no doubt it does, that proprietary medicines today are responsible, first, for extracting many millions each year from the pockets of credulous persons, and, secondly, by encouraging in some degree self-medication, they may prevent the best use being made of the Health Service. I like to be reasonable in this matter and I realise that not every complaint means that it is necessary to consult qualified opinion. If one's liver is slightly upset, then no doubt the remedy can be very easily and effectively be applied to one's self without bothering a doctor.
  The dangers of self-medication are, however, very obvious. I had a case recently brought to my notice of a man suffering from digestive trouble; he invested in one of these well-known stomach powders—I will be kind and even in this privileged Chamber I will not reveal the name—and he obtained relief for some period. After six months all his symptoms returned, and when he finally

  973
  went to his doctor after one complete year's delay it was diagnosed that he had an acute duodenal ulcer which necessitated an operation. Had he taken medical opinion 12 months earlier, it is quite likely that that operation would have been unnecessary and he would have been saved a great deal of unnecessary suffering, trouble and expense.
  I think it is intolerable that misery and suffering of that kind should be permitted without the Ministry making some attempt to educate public opinion in the dangers which they may run. If I may turn to the subject of the exploitation of the public I should like to quote a few instances. One Sunday newspaper yesterday said that, despite the National Health Act, the public was still willing to buy patent medicine. One can hardly expect a revolution in five days, but it is because I think now is the time for the Ministry to act that I have raised the subject. Of the cases which I want to raise tonight, I would point out that it is extremely difficult for an individual outside this House to do very much about them. A gentleman of my acquaintance has just produced a study of 120 well-advertised proprietary medicines, but such are the curious intricacies of our law of libel that he could not find a publisher, and when he did finally find one man prepared to take the risk of publishing the book, he could not find a solitary printer prepared to take the risk of printing it.
  Dr. Haden Guest: Ask the B.M.A. They have done it once.
  Sir William Darling: Shortage of paper.
  Mr. Skeffington: If the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling) is suggesting that the publisher, realising he has a very good seller, is turning it down because of shortage of paper, he is not showing the acumen with which I usually credit him.
  Sir W. Darling rose—
  Mr. Skeffington: I would rather get on, because we have not very much time and there may be others who would like to speak. Let me start with the remedy called "Mrs. Johnson's American Soothing Syrup." Why the unfortunate Americans should be blamed for this remedy I do not know, particularly as it
  974
  is made not very many miles from this House. The formula is 6.6 per cent. of sodium chloride, which is a very much better way of describing common salt, and 2.5 per cent. tincture of tolu. A three-ounce bottle sells for 1s. 6d. and, even if one allows for 33½ per cent. Purchase Tax, the difference between the cost of the ingredients and the retail price needs a good deal of explanation. Common salt is still 1d. a lb. and water costs very little indeed.
  I should like to mention one or two remedies which may be rather better known. I turn first to Birleys Antacid Powder. This is composed of magnesium carbonide, an ounce of which can be bought at about 3d. Even if it is dispensed and the cost of the bottle be added, the total expenditure would not be more than a shilling. It actually sells for 3s. 7d., for which, allowing for Purchase Tax, there is a good deal that needs accounting. Then there is Dinneford's Magnesia which, I believe, is manufactured by a member of the Beecham group. It is obtainable in tablet or liquid form. The liquid form is made from magnesium bicarbonide, and the tablets from magnesium hydroxide, though I believe the tablets and liquid are advertised in similar terms. The cost of the ingredients is about a penny. The tablets are sold at 1s. 7d. Again there is a discrepancy. Then there is Fynnon's Salt, made by the Maclean group. This is sodium sulphate, 96 per cent. of it. The cost price is 4½d. It is sold at 2s. per 6 oz. tin.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I must draw the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that, so far as I can see, he has no possible remedy in this matter that does not involve legislation. We cannot discuss legislation on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
  Mr. Skeffington: I think that there is no fear that I am suggesting legislation, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. What I am suggesting is that, in the public interest, attention should be drawn to the wide discrepancy between the basic costs of these ingredients and the price at which they are sold. I am suggesting that this is something about which the public should be made aware. As far as I am aware, there is no other way of doing that than in this Chamber.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Even so, this may not be the appropriate time, in a Debate on the Motion for the Adjournment. The Minister cannot reply if legislation is involved.
  Mr. Skeffington: I fully understand that, but I have not asked for legislation. What I am suggesting to the Minister is that, perhaps, steps should be taken to make these facts as widely known as possible. I have previously stated that it is almost impossible for an individual outside the House to do that. I should have thought it would be possible for these facts to be made known without legislation.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That does not alter the position. The Minister cannot reply, inasmuch as legislation would be involved.
  Mr. Skeffington: With due respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, surely we ought to wait to hear what the Minister's reply is, before we can know whether it involves legislation?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member cannot hear the Minister's reply because he cannot reply.
  Mr. Skeffington: I am in something of a difficulty, because I have a list of a considerable number of preparations to which I should like to call the attention of the House. I can only hope that what I have said so far about those which I have mentioned will arouse some interest, and that some publicity may be given to it. I think it is very important at the present time that we should secure the fullest use of the new National Health Service, and I shall wait with interest to learn what is the Minister's attitude to the problem.
  It seems to me that one very good point that can be made is that when members of the working public are being asked to contribute 4s. or 6s a week to the National Insurance scheme, one way in which they could make a considerable saving would be to cut out all expenditure on these unnecessarily expensive and possibly harmful proprietary medical remedies. In view of the fact that I cannot say more about them, I shall leave the matter now to hear the Minister and in the hope that hon. Friends of mine may be able to pursue the subject.
  Sir W. Darling rose—
  Mr. Benn Levy: On a point of Order. I should like to be clear about your Ruling on the matter, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. If an hon. Member wants to raise certain points, would he not be in Order in doing so, in so far as he is asking, as in the present case, whether or not he is prepared to take legislative action, whether the Minister would undertake certain salutary publicity? Is that not possible in an Adjournment Debate?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: So far as I can see, the only thing that the Minister can say is that this would involve legislation and that being so, he cannot deal with it.
  Mr. Levy: Cannot the Minister say that he is prepared to give public warning or public advice, or salutary publicity?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Minister is in the position that he cannot in this Debate recommend that the public should do this, that or the other. All he could do would be to say that this would involve legislation and that as it involves legislation, it is not desirable on the Adjournment.
  Mr. Somerville Hastings: Further to that point of Order; does not the Minister give advice to the public in the form of posters and by the publication of leaflets, one of which I hold in my hand? Is it not in Order for the Minister to do that, and if so, is it not in Order for us to discuss it and make suggestions?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is not for me to say what the Minister can say or cannot say. All I desire to point out to the hon. Member who raised this matter is that to rectify this, would involve legislation. What the Minister will have to say we shall have to wait and hear.
  Sir W. Darling: Would the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Skeffington) say whether he is personally responsible for the analysis which he gave to us? Can I take it from him that it is an authoritative statement which I can rely on, and is he conversant with the things he described and does he know that they contain what he said they did contain?
  Mr. Skeffington: Oh, yes. One of the great advantages of the Medicine and Pharmacy Act, 1941, is that the contents have now to be stated on the label on

  977
  the bottle. The difficulty from the point of view of the public about the Act is that the contents are described in extremely small print, which most people cannot read, and often in Latin, which many people do not understand. Nevertheless, for those who have knowledge of the subject, it is possible to read what the contents are. I am not quite certain whether I can continue with what I was going to say.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot stop the hon. Member going on, but I can prevent him from going on the lines on which he started.
  Sir W. Darling: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us more about fluid magnesia in the contents of tablets? That interested me very much.
  10.28 p.m.
  Sir Ian Fraser: I must disclose an interest in this matter being a director of one of the companies concerned in making proprietary medicines. The hon. Gentleman's main argument is that the cost of these medicines is too high. He has not suggested that they are bad in themselves. Indeed, he cannot, because many of them are identical with preparations recommended by doctors which appear in the British Pharmacopoea. The main burden of his case is that they cost too much. I would point out that they are subject to 33⅓ per cent. tax which naturally raises the cost. Secondly, they are extremely well packed, marketed and advertised. That in itself adds substantially to the cost. When we come to advertising, there is an element of service in these advertisements. Not all people can see a doctor; there is a shortage of doctors. Not all people could afford a doctor in times gone by, and it is by no means certain that the free service will for some time to come—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. Again, I see a difficulty. The Minister cannot give instructions of this kind without having legislative power to do so.
  Dr. Guest: Is the Minister to have an opportunity of replying?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am not stopping him. I am waiting for him to rise.
  Mr. Skinnard: Would it be in Order to ask the Minister how
  978
  these particular proprietary medicines stand with regard to present legislation? We have had one Act mentioned, and I would like him to make clear whether this matter is subject to the provision of the Food and Drugs Act.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If that question is asked, it is for the Minister to decide how he will answer it, and not for me.
  10.30 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. John Edwards): We seem to have got a little involved, and one is, of course, in very considerable difficulty in dealing with a matter like this and keeping within the rules of Order. I think, however, that it is permissible—indeed, I hope that it is—for me to take up the first point raised by the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Skeffington) when he talked about proprietary medicines being almost uncontrolled. There is, as a matter of fact, a large number of statutes governing, in one way or another, articles which frequently are proprietary medicines. While in the main the statutes are concerned with the safety of persons, and with saving people from their own credulity, they are considerable in scope. It might be worth while my running over what the actual statutes are at present so that the House may see the scale of control which exists.
  First of all there is the Venereal Diseases Act, 1917, which makes it illegal to advertise the sale of medicine for the prevention, cure and relief of these diseases. Secondly, there is the Dangerous Drugs Acts, 1920 to 1932, which severely control the sale of preparations like opium, cocaine and the like. Thirdly, there is the Therapeutic Substances Act, 1925, and the regulations made under that Act, which cover the preparation and manufacture and sale of such things as vaccines and serums. Then there is the Pharmacy and Poisons Act of 1933, which deals with the whole range of poisons. The Food and Drugs Act, 1938, makes it illegal to sell a drug which has a label which falsely describes it or is otherwise calculated to mislead as to the nature of the substance or the quality, or to publish similar advertisements. That clearly is a very important measure. Then there is the Cancer Act, 1939, which prohibits advertisement of cures for cancer, and the Pharmacy and Medicines Act, 1941, which prohibits advertisements altogether for

  979
  the cure of diseases like Bright's disease, cataract, diabetes and epilepsy, loco-motor ataxy, paralysis, tuberculosis and the like. This same Act requires the full disclosure on the label of the active ingredients of all the medicines, and also prohibits advertisements relating to abortion. Finally, there is the Penicillin Act, 1947, which deals with the whole range of penicillin products.
  So it would be wrong to say that there is no control so far as the safety of persons is concerned. But, of course, this control is not concerned with the prices at which any of these things are sold, and as far as I am aware, there is no way under present legislation by which they could, in fact, be controlled. However, we have had a fair amount of voluntary action which has, I think, improved the position. Voluntary efforts have been made—and one ought to say this in all fairness—by some of those most directly concerned to keep extravagant advertising in check.
  I am here dealing solely with descriptions, and not with price. Bodies like the Proprietary Association of Great Britain, and the Advertising Association, have drawn up fairly recently a much tightened code governing what should be put on to the bottles or into advertisements. Although this code unfortunately does not bind those who are not in these associations, those in the associations have shown willingness to tighten up very considerably the standards of advertising.
  Sir I. Fraser: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, may I ask him one question? On the point of keeping down the price, is it not also true that competition helps to keep down prices and that the Co-operative Movement not only manufactures but sells a very large amount of these popular medicines, so there is a competitive element which also helps to keep down prices?
  Mr. Edwards: Yes, that may be so, but it is, after all, fairly limited, and the whole point of proprietary articles is to maintain a pretty firm, continuous and traditional market. The final point that I wanted to make was this: from last Monday we have a situation where everyone
  980
  in the country is entitled to a comprehensive health service, and I believe that by providing for everyone, and this for the first time, the medicines which the doctor considers necessary, there will be less inducement to buy medicines which make misleading claims. I do not imagine that doctors, at any rate for the most part, will prescribe medicines of the kind that we have had mentioned this evening in the ordinary way, and certainly if doctors were to do so, their own colleagues on the local medical committee would, I think, very soon put them right.
  So I think we shall in a certain sense be helping to educate the public to take a more critical attitude towards claims which are made. Certainly, in so far as these medicines are costly in relation to the cost of the ingredients, then it is for the public to be educated, to weigh carefully the advantages of what they get against the cost, and in these particular instances to weigh the service that is freely and comprehensively available under the National Health Service against the doubtful virtues of self-medication—not that for one moment do I want to suggest that there is no place for simple household remedies, for clearly most of us have our pet remedies and I think none of us is the worse for having used them.
  Disregarding that, we must expect to find improvements with the mere introduction of the new service. It would, as you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, have pointed out, be impossible for me to go further in this discussion this evening, certainly on the matter of price where we have no powers of any kind. I hope very much that the efforts which some of the trade themselves are making, combined with the fact of introducing the new service and the public education associated with it, will go at any rate some way towards meeting the situation. It is true that debates of this kind have a most useful purpose because they do bring these matters to the attention of the public. Limited as I am by the rules of Order in this case, all I can do is to say that I am grateful to my hon. Friend for having raised the matter.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

FOOD SUPPLIES
  Welfare Foods (Distribution)
  Welfare Foods (Distribution)
  Gifts from Abroad
  Gifts from Abroad
  Danish Potatoes
  Danish Potatoes
  Early Potatoes
  Early Potatoes
  Poultry and Rabbits
  Poultry and Rabbits
  Perishable Foodstuffs (Marketing)
  Perishable Foodstuffs (Marketing)
  SHIPPING TURN-ROUND; HULL
  SHIPPING TURN-ROUND; HULL
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Book Exports
  Book Exports
  Sheets (Students)
  Sheets (Students)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Television Equipment
  Television Equipment
  London Metal Market
  London Metal Market
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  War-Damaged Factories (Rebuilding)
  War-Damaged Factories (Rebuilding)
  Requisitioned Houses. Edinburgh
  Requisitioned Houses. Edinburgh
  Pillbox, Horncastle (Removal)
  Pillbox, Horncastle (Removal)
  COMMONWEALTH CONFERENCE
  COMMONWEALTH CONFERENCE
  AGRICULTURE (CROPPING DIRECTIONS)
  AGRICULTURE (CROPPING DIRECTIONS)
  GREECE (INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS)
  GREECE (INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS)
  DEVELOPMENT AREAS (TREASURY LOANS)
  DEVELOPMENT AREAS (TREASURY LOANS)
  WAR-DESTROYED HOUSES, LONDON
  WAR-DESTROYED HOUSES, LONDON
  NYASALAND (LAND ACQUISITION BILL)
  NYASALAND (LAND ACQUISITION BILL)
BRITISH ARMY
  Medical Officers, Far East
  Medical Officers, Far East
  Married Quarters (Rents)
  Married Quarters (Rents)
  18, Grosvenor Gardens
  18, Grosvenor Gardens
  Court Martial (Mr. H. R. Sandford)
  Court Martial (Mr. H. R. Sandford)
  POLISH LAND FORCES
  POLISH LAND FORCES
SCOTLAND
  Child Population
  Child Population
  Diphtheria
  Diphtheria
  Vaccination Statistics
  Vaccination Statistics
  Smallpox
  Smallpox
TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING
  Advertisement Regulations
  Advertisement Regulations
  National Parks
  National Parks
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  WHITE FISH AND HERRING INDUSTRIES BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS (No. 2) BILL.
  2.35 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to authorise the National Debt Commissioners to issue to the Public Works Loan Board for local loans an amount of up to £500,000,000 until the passing of the next Act. It also provides that the Board may incur commitments within a comprehensive limit of £680,000,000. As your Lordships will observe, the Bill follows the pattern of its predecessors, and the need for it arises from the possibility of the powers under the existing Act being exhausted during the coming autumn. The current Act, passed last December, limited cash advances to £250,000,000, and the total of cash advances and commitments to £400,000,000. At the beginning of this month, the amount actually advanced under the current Act had reached £159,000,000. The great bulk of this amount was for housing purposes—it is impossible to estimate the precise figure, but three-quarters would probably be about the right proportion—while outstanding commitments stood at just over £181,000,000. The margin available to the Board is thus only just under £60,000,000 and there is a serious risk that this will not last beyond the early autumn.
  690
  As your Lordships will realise, precise estimation in this field is never possible. It is difficult to say with any degree of certainty how long the new powers are likely to last; but the Government expect that they should suffice until late in 1949, or perhaps a few months longer. I am assuming, as the Government assume, that future advances and powers will be roughly in line with those of recent times. Your Lordships are aware, too, that when it comes to a particular loan, the local authority have to secure the consent of the Government Department concerned and also under the Capital Issues Control, the agreement of the Treasury. Under the Act of 1945, and until the end of 1950, local authorities are obliged, subject to certain exemptions, to borrow from the Board. That, of course, is in order to avoid competition between the central Exchequer and the local authority. This Bill is a simple and necessary part of the machinery for ensuring that the money required by local authorities for housing and other essential purposes is made available without delay. I will do my best to answer any question that may be raised on the Bill. I beg to move that it now be read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord pakenham.)
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, possibly it is because I have had to move a similar Bill in another place, in other years, that I have been asked to make a few brief remarks on this occasion. As the noble Lord said, it is a piece of necessary machinery. We might, perhaps, observe that the Bill is somewhat early in time, because the present provision is net yet exhausted and might have lasted at any rate until the early autumn Session. We shall not quarrel about that, however; we do not want to have too much extraneous business during that special Session. The Act of 1945 concentrated borrowing on the part of local authorities through the Public Works Loans Commissioners, and there are critics of that procedure. There are some who would prefer the old method. Perhaps it is too early to say how this new procedure is going to work. I see the merit of avoiding unnecessary competition between local authorities when they are seeking money and possibly the noble Lord may have some views as to how the system is working. I should like

  691
  to pay tribute to the twelve unpaid Commissioners—men of high ability—and to express the hope that the Treasury will regard them as an independent body and not just as a "rubber stamp." Possibly the calibre of the Commissioners is the best guarantee that that will be so.
  This total of £500,000,000 cash and £680,000,000 including commitments is a considerable sum, and it is being spent by the local authorities of this country on social services arising from a code which is not the work of one Party. The social services code has been built up by all Parties, and we are anxious to see that it should be fully implemented; and I note that housing accounts for about three quarters of the requirements of the local authorities. Looking to the future, those of us who sit on these Benches are anxious, because capital does not fall like manna from heaven; it has to be produced, saved or earned. We see one industry after another subjected to the great experiment of nationalisation (I will not be contentious), and a new range of individuals whose incomes for this year are extinguished and whose savings are trenched upon. We therefore feel some anxiety as to whether, in the future, capital will be available for the social services as it has been in the past. However, that is a story for another day, and I leave it there. I have no further comment to make on this necessary measure.
  On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS BILL. [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  GAS BILL.
  2.42 p.m.
  House again in Committee (according to Order).
  [THE EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]
  Clause 58 [Co-partnership schemes]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): This is in the nature of a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 73, line 7, leave out ("section") and insert ("subsection").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved to add to the clause:
  "(4) No regulations made under this section shall authorise the distribution or transfer of any assets, otherwise than in accordance with the consent of a meeting of the persons entitled to benefits from, or in connection with, those assets, duly convened in accordance with the scheme."
  The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to safeguard the interests of co-partnership schemes. As many of your Lordships know, in certain cases the assets of these co-partnership schemes are considerable. Clause 58 (3) says that the
  "regulations shall make provision for the distribution of any assets"—
  of co-partnerships schemes which are
  "held for the purposes of the scheme to the persons beneficially entitled thereto, not being assets transferred and held for the benefit of persons…"
  provided for under the new arrangements. The Amendment that I am moving merely requires that the assets shall not be disposed of except as approved by the co-partnership meeting of the persons entitled to share in those assets. When this matter was discussed in another place, the Solicitor-General made the point that, whilst in spirit he was agreeable to the proposals contained in my Amendment, in fact it was difficult to put such a provision into the Bill because there was no provision for the wishes of the members of co-partnership schemes to be expressed in the ordinary way through duly convened meetings. If I may just quote, the Solicitor-General said:
  "There is no procedure for constituting a duly convened meeting but, if that were done and the wishes of the meeting were conveyed to the Minister, he would have regard to them."
  It is not quite correct to say that there is no provision for members of co-partnership schemes to have meetings. This Amendment tries to put into effect the intention as expressed by the Solicitor-General. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 73, line 28, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Like the Solicitor-General, I too am in sympathy with the idea underlying this Amendment. I can easily satisfy the noble Lord.

  693
  This Amendment goes too far. The Solicitor-General said—and if he had not said it, I would have said it—that the Minister should obviously have regard, and the very greatest regard, to the wishes of co-partners as expressed at a properly convened meeting. But it is one thing to say: "You shall have regard to these matters," and quite a different thing to give co-partners what the Poles used to call liberum veto—the absolute right of veto. That would mean that any majority of co-partners, or possibly a minority, would have the right to say "No." One of the difficulties which we have in this Bill and which has always been familiar to us—particularly those of your Lordships who listened to the discussions on Clauses 56 and 58—is the difficulty of squaring the old co-partnership arrangements, which had much to commend them, with the new set-up of nationalisation. It involves the departure of the small scheme and the merging of the various small departments into one very much larger unit.
  In these circumstances, it is obvious that difficult questions may arise as to what is to be done to wind up co-partner-ship schemes. To say that you are to listen to, and so far as you can to give effect to, the wishes of the co-partners is to say something which, from my point of view, is entirely self-evident. But to say that the Minister is to have no power to act at all unless he has the consent of the co-partners is to put him into an impossible position. I do not say that any set of men is ever unreasonable; I will not say co-partners are unreasonable. So we must consider the possibility of some people not being willing to enter into the spirit of the new system, and I think it would be an impossible position if those people were in a position to hold up the whole scheme. Therefore I cannot assent to a proposition which would allow the co-partners to hold up the distribution of assets for ever unless the Minister complied with their requirements, whatever they might be and however impossible it might be for the Minister to comply with them. I think that is asking too much. I hope no one will interpret what I have said as meaning that the Minister should not have regard to the wishes of the copartners. Of course he should; and he should give effect to them as far as possible. But I am not prepared to put the Minister in a position where he can be
  694
  completely overridden and deprived of his powers by a majority of the co-partners.
  Incidentally, if there are a majority and a minority of co-partners, I think the Minister ought to have regard to the minority, to see that the majority are not overriding the minority and to try to do justice as between the two. The regulations which we contemplate could—and probably will—provide for an existing co-partner opting out of any new arrangement, in which case, of course, he would receive his appropriate share of the accumulated funds. There is the further difficulty that not a few of these co-partnership schemes do not provide for the holding of "duly convened meetings", and in such cases as that the Amendment would seem to be of no effect. In short, I am sorry that I cannot accept this Amendment. Although I do not say it would, it could be used for preventing the winding-up of schemes; it could be used for prejudicing the wishes of minorities, and to take from the Minister the power to do that which, as a matter of good business and good sense, he ought to be able to do—namely, to see that the old arrangements dovetail into the new.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I thank the noble and learned Viscount for his reply. He said that he was sympathetic to the intention, and then he gave several powerful reasons why it was impossible to do anything. I want to ask the noble and learned Viscount (because I think we have one purpose in this) whether he would consider giving an undertaking that, at a later stage in the Bill, or if not in the Bill in the regulations, that he will try to introduce some appropriate words. I took down the purport of his words, to the effect "that the Minister shall have regard to, and endeavour to give effect to, the wishes of the members of a co-partnership scheme." If he could build a bridge between is on those lines, I think we should feel that his main points were met and, at the same time, that our point was also met.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am not in a position to give my undertaking now, but it is possible that in the regulations we might have some sort of phrase on those lines. Whether or not that should be so, I do not know; but I can assure the noble Lord—and it is quite obvious—that the desire of the Minister would be

  695
  to carry with him the majority of the co-partners in any arrangement that he might find it necessary to make.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I thank the Lord Chancellor for the undertaking he has given. Perhaps at a later stage we may hear whether such a course as he has mentioned is possible. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 58, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 59:
  Compensation to officers.
  59.—(1) The Minister shall by regulations require every Area Board and the Gas Council to pay, in such cases and to such extent as may be specified in the regulations, compensation to officers of any undertaker some or all of whose property, rights, liabilities and obligations vest by virtue of this Act in the Board or Council and officers employed whole-time for the purpose of administering undertakings or parts of undertakings of undertakers to whom Part II of this Act applies, being officers who suffer loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments or pension rights in consequence of the vesting, or in consequence of the subsequent transfer from one Area Board to another or from the Gas Council to an Area Board or the subsequent disposal in any other manner, of any such property, rights, liabilities or obligations, or in consequence of anything done under the last preceding section.
  (5) Regulations made under this section—
  (b) may in particular contain provisions enabling appeals from any determination as to whether any or what compensation is payable to be brought, in such cases and subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by the regulations, before a referee or board of referees appointed by the Minister of Labour and National Service, after consultation with the Lord Chancellor or, where the proceedings are to be held in Scotland, after consultation with the Secretary of State;
  2.56 p.m.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY VISCOUNT RIDLEY moved, in subsection (1), to omit "in such cases and." The noble Viscount said: I am afraid I have been rather late in tabling this Amendment but it seemed to me opportune that we should compare this clause with the sections contained in the Electricity Act and the Transport Act of last year, and the results that followed from them. What I propose to do is to move that the words
  696
  "in such cases and" should be removed. As I read the clause, it says that the Minister may decide which cases should be paid compensation for loss of office. That seems to raise some difficulty, and I think there is a doubt in many minds as to which classes of people may be left out. We discussed this matter at some length last year, both on the Electricity Bill and on the Transport Bill, and Amendments were moved to remove these words. Finally, however, the words were left in. The reason why I raise the matter again—and once more I apologise for not having given earlier notice of the Amendment—is because I have just come across the regulations for compensation which have been recently issued under the Transport Act. There are one or two points about those regulations which are scarcely what one would like to see followed in this Bill.
  This matter also arises on the Town and Country Planning Act regulations for the same purpose, which were laid before Parliament and approved recently and are now in operation. A certain amount of difficulty is caused by the fact that the regulations in the case of the Town and Country Planning Act state that, in order to be qualified for compensation for loss of employment, diminution of emoluments or worsening of conditions, an officer must have been employed for eight years in the service of the local authority. It is true that the regulations allow for people being away on war service—and various kinds of war service at that. There is no complaint on that score. But there are certainly people who have come into both transport and electricity (and we have not yet seen the regulations for those industries), and there will be people who are employed in the gas industry but who have not been in that industry for eight years—people must start at some time. Therefore a man who has worked well for seven years may be unlucky. Owing to force of circumstance, he may be displaced by the rearrangements consequent on the nationalisation of the industry, and he ought to receive some consideration.
  It would seem reasonable that the amount payable by way of compensation should be related to the number of years that the officer has served; but the regulation says that below eight years' service he gets nothing. It may not be a matter of great magnitude in itself, but

  697
  it seems to be not what one would have hoped for, and that it is something one does not want to see repeated in the regulations for the gas industry which are to be made under this clause. If the words were removed, some compensation however slight, would have to be given to people who have not been in the industry long, and who, of course, would not deserve and would not have earned as much as those with longer service. If these words were removed, I think it would still give the Minister plenty of power to vary the compensation regulations as much as he wanted to. The words now in the Bill are:
  "to pay, in such cases and to such extent as may be specified in the regulations."
  I consider that that gives him complete freedom. I do not think it right that any category of officers should be deprived of compensation. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 73, line 30, leave out ("in such cases and").—(Viscount Ridley.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As the noble Viscount has himself reminded the Committee, this discussion is reminiscent of the discussions which we had on the Electricity Bill. The Minister, speaking on the Electricity Bill, said this:
  "The only reason why the words in such cases' occur in the Bill is because they will be necessary in the regulations to specify the conditions that have to be fulfilled before a man is entitled to claim compensation for redundancy. For example it would obviously be necessary to lay down some qualifying period of service, If a man has only been employed a week or two with an electricity undertaking which is taken over, I think none of us would say that he had a reasonable claim for compensation if he lost his job as redundant a fortnight after the vesting date."
  After a brief discussion, Sir Arnold Gridley, who is recognised as a great authority on this matter, said:
  "I think on the whole the Minister's explanation is reasonable and, therefore, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment."
  In the Committee on this Bill, however, the Opposition were not altogether satisfied by the same explanation, which was given both by the Parliamentary Secretary and by the Solicitor-General. I do not think anyone disputed that there must be some minimum qualifying period, but they asked that the minimum qualifying period should be put in the Bill. I think it would be very difficult to do that. We are dealing with all sorts and conditions of service here, and I conceive that
  698
  rather an elaborate code would be necessary to attempt to do as the Opposition asked. I think the best assurance I can give to your Lordships is this—that all these matters will be discussed, and so far as possible agreed, with the trade unions. It may be objected that the trade unions do not necessarily cover the higher grades of employees. In answer to that, I will give this further assurance—that the Minister will consult also with those organisations which represent the higher grades. Thus we have given assurances to the National Joint Council for Gas Staffs, and also to the Gas Engineers' National Guild. And, generally, I may say that in making our regulations we will confer with the appropriate organisations covering all grades, from the highest to the lowest, in order to see that we evolve an appropriate set of regulations.
  I think that that is much better than even attempting to insert an elaborate code in the Bill at the present time, before these consultations have taken place. It is necessary here, as it was in the case of the Electricity Act, that it should not be assumed as a matter of course that every person is entitled, even though he has not served for the minimum qualifying period, to receive compensation. The whole matter should be considered on its own merits, after either the trade unions or the appropriate organisations of the senior grades have been consulted, in order that in that way we may thresh out a set of regulations which may be deemed fair by everyone concerned.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I am sure the noble and learned Viscount has made out a good case, and I am grateful to him for stating that he will undertake that there shall be consultation with all these organisations, including the organisations representing the higher grades. On that basis, I think the arrangement will be an excellent one.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY: I believe the noble and learned Viscount has gone a good deal further in the assurance that he has just given than he was able to go in dealing with the Bills before us last year, and I am very grateful to him. I would like to say, however, without being in any way critical, that I hope the Minister will not only consult with the parties to whom the noble and learned Viscount has referred but will also obtain substantial

  699
  agreement to the regulations before they are issued. I cannot, of course, ask whether or not it is intended that the regulations shall have the same qualifying period as is laid down in the Transport Regulations. I very much hope that they will not. I have a copy of the Transport Regulations here and they say that a person, to qualify, must have been employed since January, 1940—that is, for eight years. A similar requirement, I think, is also to be seen in the Town and Country Planning Regulations—I believe in Regulation 16.
  It rather looks, therefore, as if it is Government policy that eight years' employment is the minimum that will qualify a man for compensation. I hope that that is not going to be the standard, for I can conceive cases where that would not operate fairly. I know of one or two cases in the transport industry where it would not have been fair. The men concerned have less than eight years service. It is true they have not been displaced, but they might have been; and if they had been it would not have been right that they should be left out of the compensation arrangements. I gladly accept the noble and learned Viscount's undertaking that these consultations—which I hope will lead to agreement with the bodies concerned—will take place. And I trust that this question of a qualifying period of eight years, if it comes up, will be considered and that some agreement will be reached with regard to it.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sure that the Minister will do his best to secure agreement, but, clearly, I cannot give an assurance that he will obtain agreement. The organisations concerned might conceivably prove unreasonable—though I trust that they will not; and, indeed, that is not a prospect which I contemplate.
  LORD HAWKE: Would the noble and learned Viscount go a little further, and say that the Minister would be prepared to consider representations made by the stockholders' representative? He is the only representative left of the former employers. I should have thought that in weighing up the merits of displaced redundant employees for compensation, the opinion of the previous employers should have some consideration given to it.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have no doubt that the Minister will pay regard to what the representative says, but obviously, I cannot give any undertaking.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY: In view of what the noble and learned Viscount has said, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD ROCHDALE LORD ROCHDALE moved, in subsection (1), after "rights" (where that word occurs a second time) to insert "or whose position is worsened." The noble Lord said: This Amendment also deals with compensation to officers of undertakings liable to be compensated, who may suffer not loss of employment or diminution of emoluments, but worsening of their position. One could give a number of instances of the sort of worsening which may be expected, but generally one can put them all together by describing them as all those additional expenses which a man may have to incur owing to a new appointment. It might be that he would have to go elsewhere to work, which would mean extra travelling expense. It might be that he would have to make a change of residence and go into lodgings elsewhere, leaving his family behind in the house in which they have all been living together. One can think of many similar cases. This Amendment seeks to safeguard individuals who may be so affected.
  The case of such people is one which has certainly been covered in a number of similar Acts—not merely the Acts which we have heard mentioned so often in this debate. It is certainly so with the Transport Act and the Electricity Act, but it goes back much further; it goes back to the Electricity Supply Act of 1919 and the London Passenger Transport Act of 1933. They all included a section giving compensation for the worsening of the position of officers who had been taken over. This matter was discussed in another place in Committee, and I think it was regarded sympathetically by the spokesman of the Government. It was said, however, that they expected that the Gas Council, the Area Boards and the trade unions would deal with hard cases. That is all very well but, as the noble and learned Viscount said on the previous Amendment, these individuals may not all be members of trade unions and it may be that those who work in the industry now look with

  701
  a certain amount of apprehension to their future, after vesting has taken place. It would give a considerable amount of additional confidence if there were an assurance in the Bill that cases of the type with which I am dealing will be eligible for consideration for compensation. That confidence instilled into the men and women working in the industry will do a great deal to ensure the efficiency and success of the industry in the future. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 73, line 38, after ("rights") insert ("or whose position is worsened").—(Lord Rochdale.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Superficially there is a good deal to be said for this Amendment, if only by reason of the fact that in the electricity industry and in the transport industry there is such a provision. The reason for that is historic. In the Electricity Supply Act, 1919, to which the noble Lord referred, and in the London Passenger Transport Act—those (comparatively speaking) old and respectable Statutes—there is provision for those whose position is worsened. Whether it has been altogether a success, I am doubtful. Of course we want to help a man where his condition is worsened, but we find that all sorts of people say their condition is worsened. For instance, if a man is moved from one garage to another, and the new garage is not quite so convenient as the old, he complains that his conditions are worsened; and a great deal of trouble and litigation has been caused. On the other hand, the gas industry, which has been in the forefront of those having suitable conditions and happy relations between employers and workers, has never had such a provision—a provision which, as I have said, has undoubtedly led to many rather doubtful claims. Our view is that in all these industries we had better keep to the established practice. It is our considered view that it would be undesirable to depart from the existing system in the gas industry. That does not mean that this is not a matter which should be discussed by the various organisations. If the trade unions do not embrace all the workers, then by all means have consultations with the organisations which can speak for all of them.
  702
  The phrase which we have in this subsection, "loss or diminution of emoluments," is a wide one. I do not pretend that it goes the whole way. Suppose, for instance, that we had a case of a worker who under the new dispensation was ordered to work at some place a mile farther away than the place where he had been working. Under the Bill, he could not claim compensation for that; and he would tend to be fastened to one place, and not to adapt himself to new conditions. That is the type of case which should be the subject of negotiations between the bodies concerned, to see whether they are satisfied about the new conditions. It is of the utmost importance that the Gas Council and the Area Boards should gain the reputation of being good employers. They should be obviously in the van so far as good conditions are concerned, but I suggest that it would be a mistake to insert the words now proposed. They have never hitherto applied to the gas industry, and there was no agitation in the old days for such a provision. Moreover, I think it would tend to limit that mobility of labour which is so necessary in modern conditions. I ask your Lordships to leave it in this way. Let us apply to the gas industry the code it has always had. Do not let us borrow from other and (may I add?) less happy industries the code which they have. Leave it to the Gas Council and the Area Boards who, as I have said, will act as good employers in this matter, to make an amicable arrangement with the trade unions and other organisations concerned to see that the men are not made to suffer by reason of the fact that we have a new organisation.
  LORD HAWKE: We have heard with interest the explanation of the noble and learned Viscount. There is great force in what he says. I do not think his argument that, because the gas industry has never had this, we must not include it now, is necessarily sound. Road transport had no such provision, but it was included in the Road Transport Act. Moreover, the conditions are going to be very different. In the olden days there was no possibility of such movement of staff—and particularly of administrative staff—as will be presented under the new order. I think this Amendment is more likely to concern the administrative and technical than the weekly-paid staff.

  703
  There seems to be a possibility that a man might be put to severe loss by being moved, even from one Area to another. The mobility of labour is something we all like to foster, but it will not make for willingness to be mobile if there is no provision for compensation for what one might call terminal expenses. With taxation at its present levels, and so on, there is no margin if a man has to get rid of a house in one part of the country and set up an establishment in another. It is cases of that kind which I feel the Area Boards should consider sympathetically if they want to preserve this freedom to move, rather than to have an unfortunate propensity to "dig in," which will be the alternative.
  3.20 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I must say that I am not entirely happy about letting this Amendment pass by, particularly after hearing the points made by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor. I think his general proposition in resisting this Amendment was that we should keep to established practice. That is all right as a general proposition, if it is applied all through the Bill. But in various other directions, and particularly in co-partnership—which, after all, is an old tradition of the gas industry—we depart from that proposition. When we come to co-partnership, we depart from established practice and say that that must give way to new circumstances. I do not think it is a good argument to say that we must keep to established practice in this case, when in previous cases in the Bill we have departed from established practice. With respect, one cannot use that argument for one's own convenience on particular Amendments.
  The second proposition of the Lord Chancellor was that the gas industry had never had this practice. That is quite true. But up till now the gas industry has never had to function in the circumstances in which it will have to function in the future. Consideration of the circumstances in which it will function in the future, it seems to me, provides a much better basis on which to work, and one more parallel to the conditions existing in the transport and electricity industries, than consideration of the custom in past years. In the past the gas industry was localised and
  704
  that is one of the reasons why it did not have this practice. The industry was largely a series of small units, whereas now it is going to be, to a very large degree, centralised. I grant that it will not be as much centralised as our other nationalised industries, but it will be centralised to a very large extent, as compared with its condition in past years. Such a safeguard as is now proposed would undoubtedly give much satisfaction to employees who are affected. With great respect, I do not think the arguments put forward by the Lord Chancellor in support of his suggestion that we should pass this Amendment by are convincing. I would ask him—if the point I put to your Lordships is a fair one, and carries the support of your Lordships—to reconsider the matter between now and Report stage to see whether he cannot meet us.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will certainly do that, so long as I am not taken as giving a promise. I will certainly look at the matter and discuss it with my advisers, in the light of what the noble Lord has said.
  LORD ROCHDALE: Like the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, I was somewhat disturbed at the reply of the Lord Chancellor, and more particularly when he referred to previous cases where, owing to the presence of these words in the Act, it had been open to all sorts of individuals to make (as I gathered him to suggest) frivolous claims. Is that strictly correct? Surely, this clause deals only with cases where the Minister by regulation shall allow people to make such claims in such cases as may be specified in the regulations. In view of the assurance of the noble and learned Viscount that he will look into the matter again, I will certainly withdraw the Amendment; but there is that point which makes me feel that there is more substance in this Amendment than might at first sight appear.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  3.25 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, after subsection (3) to insert:
  "(4) If within five years after the vesting date—

  (a) any existing officer relinquishes his employment on the ground that he has been required to perform duties which are not reasonably comparable to or are an unreasonable addition to those which as an

  705
  officer of his previous employer he was required to perform; or

  (b) the services of any existing officer are dispensed with by an Area Board or the Gas Council because his services are not required and not on account of misconduct or incapacity to perform such duties as immediately before the vesting date he was performing or might reasonably have been required to perform; or

  (c) the emoluments of any existing officer are reduced on the ground that his duties have been diminished,

  that officer shall unless the contrary be proved be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section to have suffered loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments by reason of the vesting.
  For the purposes of this subsection the expression 'existing officer' means any person who was on the 21st day of October, 1947, and immediately before the vesting date such an officer as is referred to in subsection (1) of this section and whose services are transferred to an Area Board or the Gas Council by reason of the passing of this Act."
  The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to enable officers who accept employment under the Gas Council or the Area Boards to claim compensation if within five years after the vesting date they consider that the employment offered by the Gas Council or Area Board is less advantageous than their employment under the undertaking before nationalisation. The Amendment specifies in some detail the directions in which we think that a man's employment might be worsened. If noble Lords will look at paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of this Amendment, they will relieve me of the necessity of explaining in any detail the proposals contained therein. With great respect, I would commend this Amendment to the Government, because I feel it is a fair and reasonable proposition. We have specified the time of five years. If the Government feel that is unduly restrictive, we will, of course, accept an Amendment to increase that five years to six or seven years. Equally, if the Government feel that five years is too long, we would not look unfavourably on some small reduction. But we do feel that there should be a specified time limit within which a man should have certain rights should his position be worsened by virtue of his new employment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 74, line 29, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think—and I rather suspect the noble Lord will
  706
  think too—that this Amendment will not do. The broad policy in our nationalisation Bills is to deal with the details of the personal compensation code in each industry by regulations, and not in the Bill. That I justify completely (although I am always in favour of putting things in the Bill rather than dealing with them by regulations) because the regulations are, in the nature of things, much more flexible, and because we must have time work out these regulations in the light of discussions with the representative organisations of the persons affected. We have not possibly time to do that now. I would point out to your Lordships that the regulations require an affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. This particular Amendment is obviously borrowed from the Local Government Act, 1933. It is not exactly the same but it is largely based on it. That code has never been applied in the past to employees generally of gas undertakings; and I do not think—though I am not sure about this—that it has ever been applied to the employees even of local authority gas undertakings. Whether that be so or not, as I said on the last Amendment, broadly speaking we think it better to try to continue in each industry the conditions to which that industry has become accustomed—to which, indeed, I think I may say it has become attached.
  In any case, the second paragraph would be quite unacceptable. Your Lordships will see that paragraph (a), read with the part that comes after it—namely,
  "that officer shall, unless the contrary be proved"
  makes the mere assertion of an officer prima facie evidence of the truth of the assertion, which is to hold unless and until the contrary is proved. I suggest to your Lordships that that is almost an implied invitation for people of this kind to make these claims, some of which might be quite unreasonable. What we have to do in these cases is to try and hold a careful balance between the employees and the public, who have ultimately to pay for all these things.
  Whilst we must certainly see that the employees have a scrupulously fair deal, as one would expect from the Gas Council and the Area Boards, who must qualify themselves and win the reputation of being good employers, I do not think that we (representing as we do the consumer

  707
  of gas, who, in the last resort, has to pay for all these wonderful things we do) should accept these Amendments, such as that a man has merely to make a claim and it will be prima facie evidence of the truth of the claim which he makes. That, to my mind, is unreasonable. I suggest again, that this matter ought to be provided for in regulations, after they have been threshed out with the representatives of everybody concerned, be it the lower paid or the higher paid workers—regulations which will come before your Lordships' House and will require affirmative Resolution after the matter has been threshed out. I believe it is very much better to do it in that way than to attempt to put into this Bill an obligatory provision which has never applied before to gas employees and which, on the face of it, requires a great deal of consideration in regard to matters of onus of proof.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: This Amendment possibly does go too far, and I do not press it. The Lord Chancellor mentioned that these personnel problems are better dealt with by regulations. That encourages me to withdraw this Amendment, because the next one deals with that point. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, in subsection (5) to insert as a new paragraph (a):
  "(a) shall be made not less than one month before the vesting date."
  The noble Lord said: This Amendment accepts the principle which the Lord Chancellor has just laid down, that personnel problems should be dealt with by regulations. Its purpose is to say that the regulations shall be made not less than one month before the vesting date. In the case of the Electricity Act, the regulations as to the compensation of officers have, I understand, not yet been published, although the vesting date was April 1, 1948. Your Lordships will appreciate the necessity for an Amendment such as this in order to avoid the sort of position which exists under the Electricity Act. The delay in publishing those regulations is a matter of considerable hardship to many men in different grades of employment. Officers may be displaced on the vesting date without
  708
  knowing what compensation they are to receive. I repeat that, in the case of electricity, those officers who may have been displaced do not yet know what compensation they are to receive. In speaking on the last Amendment, the Lord Chancellor said that a great deal of discussion has still to take place with the various representative bodies. Of course, But if there is a special urge, such as is given by inserting in an Act of Parliament a provision that something must be done, the Executive will do that work in the time. In doing so by one month before the vesting date, they will relieve the minds and, indeed, the hearts of many employees, and will prevent something which many of us on this side of the House deeply regret was not done with the Electricity Act. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 74, line 40, at end insert ("(a) shall be made not less than one month before the vesting date").—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should certainly like to see these regulations made one month before the vesting date, but with these matters, the more haste the less speed. They have to be discussed with all the interests concerned, or with representatives of the interests concerned. I can imagine nothing worse than having a fixed time saying that it must be done by a stated date. If your Lordships have taken part in these discussions—as many have—you will know that they are apt to be lengthy. When you have finished your discussions, you date the matter back; so that no one is the worse off. At any rate, I entirely agree that it is desirable to have these regulations as soon as possible, in order that everybody will know where he stands. I am not an advocate of one moment's unnecessary delay. Everybody will be happier when these things are over, but is not this proposal a little unreasonable?
  Would your Lordships look at the Amendment which was put down with regard to pensions? Your Lordships will remember that at page 72, line 34, the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, moved an Amendment, which I accepted—namely, that the regulations should be made twelve months before the vesting date.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: The original regulations?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes. Now with regard to these matters, the noble Lord wants the regulations made one month before the vesting date. I should like to be able to comply with his request; it would be ideal if we could. The noble Lord, however, would be the last person in the world to want to cut short those negotiations. Is it suggested that I should say to these people, "I am very sorry, you must not talk any more; I have no time"? If it could be guaranteed that my opponents would cut down their observations to a fixed limit of time, I would be inclined to agree. But my experience in life is that it is impossible to make any such assertion. The great thing, when you are making any regulations, is to be certain that everybody has had an opportunity of saying what he wants to say. You do a very great deal of good—even if you are not going to concede anything—if you sit down and listen quietly, and let him pour out his heart to you and say everything he wants to say, That is my experience of life, and I am sure that a great many of your Lordships will agree. Therefore, to fix arbitrarily some limit of time, and to say that, in regard to matters which I have to discuss with all sorts of organisations, representing both the lower and higher grade organisations, regulations shall be made one month before the vesting date, is quite impracticable. I know that it is eminently desirable to do it at the earliest possible moment. If I can do it one month before the vesting date, I will do so, because it is desirable that people should know where they stand.
  It is true that these regulations date back, but that is no reason why we should not try to give people certainty and happiness at the earliest possible moment. I need no convincing on that point, but I say that it seems to me impracticable to do it within this time, consistent with giving all due care and attention to all the observations which people want to make. Therefore, I am not prepared to accept the hard and fast limit of time. I am prepared to say that I will do my utmost—and, speaking on behalf of the Minister, that he will do his utmost—to see that these negotiations are carried through at the earliest possible moment, so that the regulations can be promulgated for your Lordships' approval at the earliest possible date. More than that, I
  710
  cannot do, and more than that it would be unwise for your Lordships to ask me to do.
  LORD LLOYD: I have taken some interest in this matter before, and although I agree that it would be most unfortunate to carry on these discussions in any haphazard or too rapid a manner, yet I cannot help feeling that the urgency with which the discussions on the Electricity Act were carried out was not very great. I feel it very unsatisfactory that what happened on the Electricity Act should be allowed to happen again. It seems to me that the objections raised by the noble and learned Viscount could be disposed of quite easily. After all, there is not such a terrific hurry—certainly not from noble Lords on these Benches—for the vesting date, and it seems to me perfectly simple, if the noble and learned Viscount has not completed his discussions in time, for the vesting date to be postponed for a month or two. I do not see why there is any hurry while the discussions about these unfortunate men are still in the air. It seems to me that what we have proposed is the correct solution, and I cannot see why our Amendment cannot be accepted.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, said—I paraphrase his words—that if he were certain that his opponent would delay matters and he wanted to get a settlement he would not mind a time limit. But—if you are talking about opponents—the weapon of indefinite delay is a very powerful one if it is possessed by one side in an argument. The noble and learned Viscount puts the Committee in some difficulty. We are now asked to let the matter go, with the assurance that regulations will be made as soon as possible but without any indication as to whether the Department—who are, after all, a much overworked Department—will, in fact, be able to do it within a reasonable period. That Department have not yet been able to get out the regulations in respect of the Electricity Act. To ask us to hand ourselves over to that Department for an indefinite period when we have before us the example of what they have done—or rather have failed to do—in the case of the Electricity Act, is not, I think, quite fair. Could not the noble and learned Viscount tell us, perhaps at a later stage, whether the regulations could

  711
  not be prepared, say, even two months or one month before or after vesting date, but that they will be made then and negotiations—unless there is some absolute difference in principle between the two Parties, in which case the Government would make a statement to that effect—terminated? What we do not want is to leave the matter where it is now, for the wheels of the Department to grind all too slowly and for these men to suffer accordingly.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will certainly see what can be done about this. I am sorry that I used the word "opponent" just now. It was an inappropriate word to use. I meant a person with whom you are arguing, a person who has advanced a case. It is essential that these regulations should be drafted on sound lines. For better or worse, they will govern the rights of people for many years to come; and once they are made—although I know that theoretically it is possible that they can be altered—they will probably tend to hold the field. It may easily be a case of more haste, less speed. They must be very carefully prepared, and they will date back to the earliest possible date so that no one suffers any loss. I do not believe you will be doing any kindness to these people if you try to bring about a condition in which these regulations would be made in a "slap-dash" manner. I hope that a good deal of the work which has been done on the Electricity regulations (which, incidentally, have proved very difficult) will also be fruitful in this field. Between now and the Report stage, I will certainly see whether we cannot work out an embryonic time-table. But I warn your Lordships that I know from my experience in electricity that that is an exceedingly difficult thing to do. There are many people to consult, and there is, as I say, a danger that the regulations may go out in a "slap-dash" way. In the long run, it may be better to take a little longer, rather than rush at the matter and put forward regulations which are not satisfactory. However, I will consult my advisers and see whether it is possible to give any further indication about the time which they expect it will take to decide this matter.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I thank the Lord Chancellor for having
  712
  tried to meet us on this matter. If the Ministry of Fuel and Power were personified by the noble and learned Viscount, I am sure we should have no differences at all, because his spirit is willing and his determination is great. On the undertaking that he will see whether something can be done in the way of an embryonic time-table, in order that these people shall not be left in midair, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  3.47 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, in subsection (5) (b), to leave out "may in particular" and insert "shall." The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to make it a duty, instead of a power, of the Minister to provide the right of appeal by an employee if a claim for compensation for redundancy has been rejected by the Area Board. The Bill as now drafted follows the principle of the Transport and Electricity Acts by saying that provision for leave to appeal may be made. The Amendment suggests that provision must be made. There was a right in the other Acts to appeal to a referee appointed by the Ministry of Labour, and it seems to us fair and reasonable that such a right should be given to employees under this Bill. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 75, line 1, leave out ("may in particular") and insert ("shall").—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I must object to the noble Lord's Amendment, on grounds of drafting. It is inappropriate to use the word "shall" when you follow it with the words "in such cases and subject to such conditions," because you cannot say that anyone must do a thing if you go on to say that you wish to specify the conditions under which he does it. That would be wrong. This is a revolutionary proposal and I am astounded that such a proposal should come from so respectable a member of our society. I regret I cannot accept the Amendment.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I admit defeat and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 59 agreed to.
  Clauses 60 to 64 agreed to.
  LORD RENNELL LORD RENNELL moved, after Clause 64, to insert the following new clause:
  Consumers' freedom of choice.
  " . Nothing in this Act or in any regulations made, or direction given thereunder, shall limit the right of any person to choose such available source of fuel or power of different kinds as he considers most suitable to his needs."
  The noble Lord said: I beg to move the addition of this new clause after Clause 64. I think this is the right place in which such a clause should be inserted, if it is inserted at all. It is a clause of general application, as your Lordships will see, and I think it requires very little explanation. The principle underlying the clause was referred to in speeches made on the Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and myself. It seeks to make it clear that the consumer of power and heat shall have the option to choose the form of fuel which he or she wishes to use. The idea underlying this additional clause is not new. In point of fact, it arose many years ago when in the areas of certain council authorities attempts were made to put pressure on the tenants and occupiers of premises concerning the type of fuel or power which they should use. That was probably due to certain predilections or interests of the local authorities in electricity supply rather than in gas supply. The matter was eventually corrected, and the freedom of choice which this Amendment proposes was sanctified in the Gas Undertakings Act, 1934. That is one of the Acts which this Bill seeks to repeal.
  The principle that we all have in mind is that, wherever possible—and the Amendment refers only to circumstances where there is a possibility of choice; in other words, it refers to "such available source of fuel or power"—the consumer shall have absolute freedom of choice. That need not be elaborated. There are personal predilections about gas and electricity. There are certain purposes for which one is more suitable than the other. It is a question of individual judgment. Where both are available and both are accessible, I think it would be generally agreed that there is no reason why the choice should not be open to the consumer. If that is not explicity stated, however, there is a danger that, with
  714
  the concentration of the use of fuel under the Minister of Fuel and Power, he may be tempted from time to time, possibly in order to show that one industry is not doing so badly as it appears to be doing, or in order to stimulate it, to impose a limitation of choice upon areas in order to increase sales or consumption.
  If one were mischievously minded, one could conceive that an Area Board or the Gas Council might recommend the institution of a new gas works and, in order to show results, would seek by indirect means to put pressure upon the general public to use gas rather than electricity in a certain area. One can well conceive the reasons which would lead to their doing so. But one can also have in mind (and this is perhaps less mischievous) cases where people, for one reason or another—I cannot quite explain why—have a bias in favour of one form of fuel. Your Lordships will all have known cases in the course of years where people have said: "Oh, the gas industry is dead; it cannot possibly survive in competition with electricity." That type of personal bias, which is often unreasonable, may lead to restrictions if those biases are held by responsible persons. That would lead to great inconvenience. Incidentally, it might lead to great persona losses. One can visualise cases where gas ceases to be used to such an extent as to make it impossible to go on using certain forms of appliances. One can also see—indeed. I think there are examples present to your Lordships' minds—where, with new housing developments, an entirely new form of district heating derived from other sources may be held to be a good development, and indeed it may be a good development, but it should not be developed at the expense of existing installations or existing systems provided they remain up to date.
  I trust that the noble Lord who is to reply upon this Amendment will see the justice of this claim which, as I venture to submit, is quite beyond criticism. The Amendment states it as a general case, and in a form which imposes no obligation to supply a source of fuel or power which it is obviously impracticable to supply. For instance, nobody would require, or could require, or would support a clause which made it mandatory upon, the Minister or the Gas Council to supply gas in remote country districts where the cost

  715
  of laying mains would be quite prohibitive. In a case of that sort, if someone were offered electricity but asked for gas, the words "such available source of fuel or power" would cover refusal. Having regard to the breadth of this Amendment, I cannot see how any objection can be taken to it. In those circumstances, I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 64, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Rennell.)
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY: The manuscript Amendment which I tabled to this Amendment was intended to go a little further, but I feel I have not worded it quite rightly. It is intended to be an addition to this Amendment rather than an Amendment to it. It would really stand by itself, quite apart from discussion upon the Amendment which has just been moved by the noble Lord. I think that my Amendment is upon a slightly different subject, and so it would perhaps be better to move it after this Amendment has been discussed.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I should like to add my support to the Amendment which has been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rennell. I do not think that His Majesty's Government can quarrel over this Amendment, unless they admit perhaps that the main reason for introducing the Bill at all is to enable a form of juggling to take place within the industry of fuel and power whereby one fuel can be played up or played down against another, perhaps because of pressure from a particular trade union interested or to cover up bad administration by one of the Boards of Fuel and Power. The noble Lord, Lord Rennell, has said that the Minister might be tempted to do such things for various reasons. It would, of course, be possible for the Minister to give a direction which would provide that the owners or occupiers of any particular premises would have to use a specified form of fuel either in toto or for particular purposes. This Amendment has been set down to protect the public from such a provision and to ensure that any person shall have a full right to choose the fuel which he prefers, whether coal, electricity or gas.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I wish to support this Amendment which I think is
  716
  a very important and essential one. I know of one case where, before the nationalisation of electricity took place, a certain composite company was concerned with both electricity and gas. It often happened that the particular point referred to in my noble friend's Amendment came up. The company's direction decided that where the consumer wished to have gas he would have gas, and where he wished to have electricity he would have electricity; and that was notwithstanding the fact that the gas consumption was so much lower than the electricity consumption that each year the gas was what is called "in the red" and there was a deficit. I feel that under nationalisation the same rights ought to persist as far as the consumer is concerned. We were told that nationalisation was going to bring us a great many benefits. I do not wish to recount them now. But we were not told that the consumer would or might be deprived of the right to choose the fuel which he desired to use.
  I think this is a very important Amendment. I can quite imagine that the Lord Chancellor will say, "We are reasonable people and the Minister of Fuel and Power will be a reasonable person and will do all he can to see that the consumer has the fuel which he desires." I have no faith in those assurances at all—I refer not to the personal assurance of the noble and learned Viscount, but to the assurance of the Government on these points. We had an assurance on the Electricity Bill that regulations would be passed within a short time of the vesting of the concerns. This afternoon we have had another assurance that the same thing is going to happen with regard to the gas regulations. With my noble friend, I believe that the right contained in this Amendment is so important that it should be embodied in the Bill, and it would not be fair to the consumers, either of gas or of electricity, that it should be omitted. Therefore, I have the greatest pleasure in supporting my noble friend's Amendment.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY: I would like to support this Amendment, but in doing so I would put forward one or two slightly different reasons from those advocated by noble Lords who have so far spoken. We have been discussing the position of the domestic consumer and his needs for heat,

  717
  light and power; but one must remember that quite a lot of gas is supplied for industrial purposes. There is one large company which I know from which 35 to 40 per cent. of the gas sold is used in industry; so this question is of great importance to industry. There is one reason why I think it is as well that this clause should be clearly stated and should be in the Bill—namely, that during the last few years we have become accustomed to emergency regulations and defence regulations, and so on, operated by Ministers of various Departments which have necessarily had to prevent the use of one fuel or another, or to insist on the substitution of one fuel for another. Those are things which are necessary during periods of war and shortage, and during periods of disturbance such as we are undergoing now. But it should be clearly stated, I think, that they could not be done under this Bill, either by the Area Boards, by the Gas Council or by direction to either of them by the Minister.
  One example that I think will be fairly well known to your Lordships is the difficulty that has arisen in the last two years about requests to industry to use oil instead of coal for the purpose of supplying heat for various processes. A great deal of persuasion was used by the Government at the time of the great shortage of coal the winter before last, and on the assurance that oil would be available, a number of firms were persuaded to convert their apparatus to oil-burning. But when the time came, oil was not available for many of the schemes which had been started, and a number of them had to be dropped. That is something which, in these times, is almost bound to happen, but it is not a thing of which one wants to see any possibility under a Bill like this. It should be made clear that the object of the gas industry should be to develop itself, and to supply its customers so far as possible. I do not think there should be any need for the Minister to restrict the expansion of the business.
  There is one thing which calls for a clause of this sort. In the provisions relating to the obligations to supply gas, paragraph 9 of the Third Schedule deals with the obligation to supply industrial consumers. It says, quite rightly, that any large amounts of gas which require special installation of mains and equipment must
  718
  be the subject of consultation and bargaining between the proposed consumer and the Area Board. That is obvious, but I would emphasise the point that on considerations of that sort—namely, as to whether the consumer is prepared to take the gas over a longish period, whether he is prepared to meet his share of the cost of installation of the mains, and conditions of that sort, which ought to determine the amount of bargaining that is made and how it is made—that sort of bargain should not be subject to possible direction which might be given on quite different grounds. It is very important that any industrial process which depends on heat should have that heat available in the cheapest and most economical form. It is the more important, because the cost of coal has increased so much lately; the less heat that can be used which is derived from coal, the greater saving there is. I think your Lordships will agree that the one thing of which we really are certain is that we must run our productive industries as economically and efficiently as possible; therefore, the cheapest and most efficient supply of heat must be made available.
  There is another point which has some bearing on this—namely, the discussions that we had last week on Clause 51, which concerns the appropriation by the Area Boards of surplus gas from industry. Unless there is a clear statement of limitation, such as is proposed in this new clause, there is a possibility that considerations other than those of a purely economic nature may be at work in the arrangements between the outside producer, as he is there, and the Area Boards. Possibilities of that kind make me feel that it would be wise to say, that there will be no question of action by Area Boards, by the Gas Council or by the Minister depriving the consumer of the right to choose the heat which he thinks will suit him best. As I have said, if it is necessary to impose some other longer condition, it must be only because of a national emergency or shortage, or something like that, which can be, is being and has been dealt with under emergency regulations and defence regulations. On the subject of domestic consumers, I support what has been said by other noble Lords, but it does not seem to me to be so likely that it would be the Minister, by direction, or the Area Boards themselves who would be the people to

  719
  refuse the supply of gas. It may be other agencies who would make the choice difficult. But I feel that this new clause would be of great benefit, and I would like to support the Amendment.
  4.10 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I hope to persuade noble Lords that this Amendment is both unnecessary and undesirable. First of all, there is nothing in the Bill to restrict consumers' freedom to choose whatever available fuel is most appropriate to their needs. There is no intention that there should be any such restriction, but it may not be desirable in the general economic interest and on general economic grounds that gas as well as electricity should be developed in remote rural areas. For that reason, the Minister might want to issue directions to the gas industry which would result in one of the fuels—gas—not being available to consumers in particular areas. Acceptance of the proposed new clause might make it difficult for the Minister to issue such directions although it would be in the public interest that they should be issued.
  May I put forward a hypothetical case? At the present time there may be a small local gas works supplying a remote rural area, and with the electrification of rural areas this small local gas works might become absolutely redundant. Now under this clause the supply of gas from that works is, at the present time, available. It is available, and this clause reads:
  "Nothing in this Act or in any regulations made, or direction given thereunder, shall limit the right of any person to choose such available source of fuel or power of different kinds as he considers most suitable for his needs."
  In other words, the Minister would be prohibited from issuing any regulation which would do away with the redundant gas undertaking because it is providing a gas supply which is at present available. That is how it could be interpreted.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask what the noble Lord means by "a redundant gas works"? Will he kindly explain?
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Yes; a redundant gas works is one which is redundant having regard to the general economic welfare of the district.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: But is still being employed?
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: It may become redundant by reason of the electrification of that particular area, and it may not be in the national economic interest to run electricity and gas supplies at the same time. That is quite conceivable. That is why I said that the gas works might conceivably be considered redundant. But, under this clause, the Minister would have no power to withdraw availability because, at the present time, it is available, and this clause prohibits him from issuing any regulation under this Bill to make it non-available. Therefore, on those grounds, the Amendment is unacceptable. Lord Rennell rather complicated the issue by bringing in the Gas Undertakings Act of 1934. I take it that the manuscript Amendment which the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, is putting forward is intended to reintroduce into this Bill the principle of that particular Act. But these two Amendments conflict with each other, and before we come to consider the noble Viscount's Amendment I am afraid that I shall have to tell the Committee that we cannot accept this one as it is at present drafted.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am sure that we should all wish to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, on his most well deserved transfer from the "heights of Montmartre" to the lower but more lucrative position which he now occupies. I sincerely regret that on the first occasion when he has spoken in this capacity and has acquitted himself verbally so well, I should have to challenge the far less worthy merits of what he has said. He certainly vies with the Lord Chancellor in being able to state a thoroughly bad case in an ingenious and persuasive manner. And this is a thoroughly bad case. Indeed, the noble Lord has given us some very sound reasons why we should pass the Amendment. He said, in effect: "Why should the public have the freedom of choice? It may be in the national interest that they should not. It may be in the national interest that this should be developed here and that that should be developed there." This grandmotherly, or perhaps one should say great-grandmotherly, universal interference with the way in which we do our business, let alone with the way in which we occupy ourselves in our houses, is really—well, it has long ceased to be

  721
  a joke and it has now become an all-pervading menace.
  I was glad that the noble Lord did not seek to reject my noble friend's proposal as being unnecessary; that he did not say that there was no intention under the Bill to deprive people of the right to choose, and, therefore, it would be all right, as the road which the Government follow is "paved with good intentions"—we all know where that leads to and the sooner they get to the end of the journey the better it will be for all of us. To do the noble Lord justice, he did not pretend that at all. He said, in effect: "We have the power and we mean to exercise it." It seems to me that that really is a very bad point. There is no doubt at all that this power exists—Lord Lucas has said quite frankly that it does. Under the clause conferring power to give general directions, there is not the least doubt that the Minister could say: "We are going to develop gas here, electricity there, and neither somewhere else because people can use coal—or an admixture of coal and slate," and generally teach us all our business. There is a proverb about "teaching grandmothers," but this is a case apparently of a grandmother who is always prepared to teach us. That seems to me to be thoroughly unsound. If in a great national emergency it is necessary for the Government to do something, I am certain they have power in one of the Emergency Powers Acts, under which there are innumerable regulations. I am sure that there is power to deal with a special emergency. If there is not the Government must go to Parliament. But this claim that they should dictate to us in the running of our business, in our houses, in our work, in what is left to us of our play, and in deciding exactly what kind of fuel we are to use, is really quite intolerable.
  I do not base myself merely on my own view about that matter, though I think it is a view which is shared by nearly everyone in the House. This Bill, as we have heard, is founded on the Heyworth Report, though it departs from it in many particulars. What do the Heyworth Committee say about this point? If your Lordships will look at paragraph 277 of the Heyworth Report you will find these words:
  "One further cost consideration seems relevant. Competition between the fuel industries is the main stimulus towards efficiency
  722
  on which these proposals depend. This is important for the gas consumer, but it is equally important in the national interest that the other fuel industries—electricity and solid fuel in particular—should be stimulated to the maximum extent by competition from gas."
  That is exactly the opposite of what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has said. He says, in effect, "Get rid of competition, bring in co-ordination"—"co-ordination"; that is the blessed word. As a matter of fact, that is the way stagnation lies. You say, "Develop gas here and electricity there." The Heyworth Report is quite right in saying that it is only by the competition between these industries in their monopolistic spheres that you will get a really efficient gas industry, a really efficient electricity industry, the use of coal properly developed, and, what is more, the sale to the consumers of the kind of coal they want to have. That is doubly, trebly, important when you have all the three industries in one hand, because, of course, the controller-general of all these is the Minister of Fuel and Power.
  I should have thought that the one thing which everybody would accept was that in the manifold different forms of manufacture in this country, the men who conduct the industries are the men who know what kind of fuel they can most economically use. We are passing out of a sellers' market into a buyers' market. It is extremely important that all our industries should be on their toes to produce their best both in cost and quality. Everybody knows that to achieve that, what is important is to have the cheapest and most suitable fuel for the purpose. All that is denied by this proposition. For these reasons, I sincerely hope my noble friend will persist with his Amendment. On the question of a proviso for a case where—in some small place, for example—a gas works is genuinely redundant, I have an open mind. If an Amendment to the main proposition is moved on the Report stage, we will consider it on its merits. But here is a great question of principle—namely, that consumers, industrial and domestic, should have the choice of fuel to suit their needs. I sincerely hope your Lordships will divide on this.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I can add nothing to what has been so well said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—except perhaps this. I am not in favour

  723
  of departing from that principle of the Heyworth Report which said that there ought to be competition. I say frankly that I believe in competition between the nationalised gas industry and the nationalised electricity industry. I believe that will be for the good of both. But there may be cases in which it is undesirable. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has given an illustration of the sort of case. Therefore, for my own part, I am not prepared to accept this Amendment, which applies an absolutely universal rule. This rule may apply to some little place where it is obviously undesirable that we should have both. I need hardly point out what difficulties this country is in, and how careful we have to be about the capital expenditure we undertake. If it is to be said that, at great public cost, we are to run electric mains to all the little villages where there is already a gas works, and I come and propound such a proposition to your Lordships in times to come, your Lordships will be estopped from criticising these vast sums incurred——
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I do not think that comes under the Amendment, which proposes to give to any person the right "to choose such available source of fuel or power."
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If you are to keep this little "one-horse" gas works, it is obviously impossible, as is now proposed, to turn to electricity. There is that odd case. I am not opposing the general principle of competition between the two; but to accept as the general principle that, wherever there is an available gas supply you must go on with that too, is too much. If your Lordships want it in the Bill, you must insert it as a result of a Division.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY: In regard to the answer generally on the question of redundant gas works, I was very shocked to hear that it was intended that the Minister should use his powers of direction to terminate the supply of gas in an area where there has been one. I thought the Bill intended to increase and extend the supply of gas all over the country. The use of the words "redundant gas works" is not quite proper. The term means an obsolete works which it is no longer economic to run. The practice of the industry is to modernise such a works
  724
  or to supply gas to it by other means. I have had recent experience of a small gas works, typical of the case we are now talking about, where a high-pressure main was laid for thirty miles to supply this small works from a larger centre. It is possible to consider an even smaller works where compressed gas may be supplied in some way. In small places, that is a feasible process. I regret the attitude of mind which adopts the view that under the new nationalised system it is not worth making an effort to keep as good a supply of light and power as was previously supplied in these areas.
  It is true that there are a number of small works which are becoming out of date, and which will have to be rebuilt or connected to supplies from a distance. But surely that is the very thing which is a justification of the integration of the gas industry into large areas. On the point made by the noble and learned Viscount, about bringing electricity into a village possessing gas, I would tell him this. I have been connected with the electricity and gas industries in the same area—and a very wide area at that—and I have no experience of any place, large or small, where, if the mains could be obtained, there was not plenty of business for both. I understood the proposition was that if a gas works existed in a small place, particularly in the country, then we should not be able to bring in electricity. I can assure the noble Lord that that is not so. People want electricity for lighting, and though many prefer electricity for cooking, there are many who prefer gas. I do not think that anything under this Bill, or any other nationalisation Bill, should give the Minister, or any Board under his control, the power to reduce the availability of fuels to any individuals for domestic purposes.
  LORD RENNELL: May I add my own personal congratulations to those of the noble Viscount? I would like to say how glad we are to see the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, here; I hope the refreshing independence of mind he has shown in the past will continue in the future. I hope the noble Lord will not hold it against me when I say that the remarks which he made have only confirmed me in the necessity for this Amendment. The example he used was precisely

  725
  one of the examples I have had in mind myself. Of course, I am well aware of the large number of small gas works in the country districts which are not very efficient and which should be replaced. But to say that because they are inefficient, they shall be closed down, and electricity shall be used instead——
  SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: "May be."
  LORD RENNELL: Or may be, but when the Minister " may direct " that they shall be closed down, it is very near " shall "—that the people shall have only electricity. This is producing precisely the situation to which I referred. To say that because such a small place has an obsolete gasworks it is not an economic proposition for them to have electricity too, is a proposition with which few of your Lordships will agree.
  If the reason for resisting this Amendment fundamentally is that the Minister wishes to have the power to say that such-and-such a district shall use gas and not electricity, or shall use electricity and not gas, or, having had gas, shall no longer
  have it because of the cost of putting electricity in the places that had not get it, then I would point out that that is precisely the situation with which this Amendment seeks to deal. For those reasons, if for no other—indeed, for the reasons advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—I could not agree to withdraw this Amendment without the insertion of an Amendment which would substantially cover the same principle. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said at the end of his remarks, that he was unable to accept the Amendment in this form. If the noble Lord could give me some indication of the form which he could accept, it might save me asking your Lordships to divide on this matter. As the noble Lord apparently cannot suggest any alternative form, I have no alternative but to maintain my Amendment, and to ask for a decision from your Lordships.
  On Question, Whether the said new clause shall be there inserted?
  Their Lordships divided: Contents 51; Not-Contents, 14.

  CONTENTS

  Aberdeen and Temair, M.

  Ridley, V.

  Hampton, L.

  Cholmondeley, M.

  Swinton, V.

  Harris, L.

  Townshend, M.

  Trenchard, V.

  Hawke, L.

  Willingdon, M.

  Kenilworth, L.

  Amherst of Hackney, L.

  Llewellin, L.

  Buckinghamshire, E.

  Balfour of Burleigh, L.

  Lloyd, L.

  Dundonald, E.

  Balfour of Inchrye, L.

  Mancroft, L.

  Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

  Barnby, L.

  Monkswell, L.

  Iddesleigh, E.

  Brassey of Apethorpe, L.

  Monson, L.

  Lindsay, E.

  Butler of Mount Juliet, L. (E. Carrick.)

  Moyne, L.

  Munster, E.

  O'Hagan, L.

  Rothes, E.

  Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

  Rea, L.

  Rennell, L. [Teller.]

  Bridgeman, V.

  Clydesmuir, L.

  Rochdale, L.

  Bridport, V.

  Courtauld-Thomson, L.

  Saltoun, L.

  Cobham, V.

  Fairfax of Cameron, L.

  Shute, L. (V. Barrington.)

  Elibank, V.

  Fairlie, L. (E. Glasgow.)

  Templemore, L.

  FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

  Greville, L.

  Teynham, L.

  Monsell, V.

  Hacking, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS

  Jowitt, V. (Lord Chancellor.)

  Amwell, L.

  Lucas of Chilworth, L.

  Addison, V. (Lord Privy Seal.)

  Chorley, L. [Teller.]

  Marley, L.

  Darwen, L.

  Milverton, L.

  Huntingdon, E.

  Ebbisham, L.

  Shepherd, L.

  Kershaw, L.

  Walkden, L. [Teller.]

  St. Davids, V.

  Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.

  4.40 p.m.
  LORD ROCHDALE LORD ROCHDALE moved to insert the following new clause:
  Use of heat from gasworks.
  " .—(1) It shall be the duty of the Gas Council to investigate methods by which heat obtained from or in connection with the manufacture of gas may be used for the heating of buildings in neighbouring localities, or for any other useful purpose, and the Council may accordingly conduct or assist others (including Area Boards) in conducting research into any matters relating to such methods of using heat.
  (2) Any Area Board may themselves provide, or assist other persons to provide, for the heating of buildings by such methods as aforesaid or otherwise for the use of heat obtained as aforesaid.
  (3) Any Area Board may, in accordance with a scheme submitted by them to the Minister and approved by order of the Minister, exercise for the purposes mentioned in the last preceding subsection any powers of that Board under this Act or any local enactment, being powers relating to the breaking up of streets, railways and tramways, in like manner and subject to the like provisions and restrictions as they are exercisable for the purposes of the supply of gas, subject to such adaptations as may be prescribed by the Order.
  (4) Any order made under this section shall be subject to special parliamentary procedure."
  The noble Lord said: The new clause which I am moving deals with the question of efficiency in gas producing plants and, in particular, it is an endeavour to make quite sure that the thermal efficiency of these plants shall be as big as possible by utilising what would otherwise be waste heat for the purpose of central heating of housing estates nearby or, as the new clause says, "for any other useful purpose," which can, of course, include the provision of additional power for any purposes where it might be advantageous. Of course, there is nothing new in the principle that, in any plant where heat is produced, engineers should do their utmost to make the thermal efficiency as high as possible. That has been going on ever since plants of such a nature were in use at all. Nor is there anything really new in having a clause of this nature in an Act. Section 50 of the Electricity Act lays down something very similar to this, though I admit that perhaps there is more cause for it there owing to the fact that the thermal efficiency of electrical generating plants is usually lower than that of gas producing plants. Be that as it may, the Amendment was put up in Standing Committee
  728
  in another place and discussed at some length. In point of fact, it received very sympathetic hearing from the Government. May I have your Lordships' permission to read what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry said? His words were:
  "However, I can say that not only have I an interest in this matter but the Minister and those in this Department are also interested, because we are anxious, as I have said, to ensure that the best use is made of the fuel supplies of the country."
  But he went on to say:
  "I would like to have an opportunity of looking into this matter further, and particularly the problem I have indicated of the power to break up streets."
  In the subsequent stages of the Bill in another place I can find no further reference to this matter, and that, to my mind, is sufficiently good reason to introduce this new clause. It is important, and we want to make quite sure that there are adequate powers in the Bill, both as regards research and also as regards putting any schemes into operation as, for instance, the power to dig up streets for the laying of hot water mains and so forth. Certainly the Parliamentary Secretary in another place seemed to have some doubt as to whether that power did exist. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 64, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Rochdale.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I first of all acknowledge with gratitude the charming personal things which the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, said in the warmth of his welcome, which I hope will be sustained, and also the very pleasant compliment paid me by the noble Lord, Lord Rennell.
  Whilst I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, that His Majesty's Government are wholly sympathetic with the principle of this Amendment, I hope to persuade him—with more success this time than I had last time—that the clause is unnecessary. With regard to research, if the noble Lord will turn to Clause 3 of the Bill, I think he will agree that that matter is adequately covered, and that that clause gives the Area Board all the powers they require to carry on all the research that is necessary. The noble Lord said something which is quite true, which is that there is a marked difference between the thermal efficiency in the

  729
  electrical generating industry and the thermal efficiency in the gas industry. If I may use the expression, where there is heat waste in gas production it represents only a small percentage in regard to utilisation. If the noble Lord will turn to Clause 1 (2) he will see there that it is the duty of the Area Boards to develop and maintain an efficient, co-ordinated and economical system of gas supply. I would be tempted to argue that it is impossible to develop an economical system of gas supply unless all the by-products are utilised to the fullest extent.
  On the question that the noble Lord raises in subsection (3) of his Amendment, I would ask him to turn to page 95, paragraph 7 of the Third Schedule, where he will see that the Area Boards have adequate powers to break up roads and replace, repair and relay pipes. I hope I have said sufficient to satisfy the noble Lord that, whilst, as I say, we are wholly sympathetic to the spirit of his Amendment, it is fully covered in the Bill as it stands, and therefore I would ask him if he will be good enough to withdraw his Amendment.
  LORD HAWKE: Would the noble Lord give me the reference on page 95? This Amendment was intended to be helpful, and we did not feel that the breaking-up powers would apply to district heating.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If the noble Lord will look at the eighth line, he will see these words:
  "…and for any other purpose connected with the exercise and performance of the functions of the Board…"
  The utilisation of waste heat would be one of the functions of the Board.
  LORD ROCHDALE: I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his sympathetic reply. The one point about which I was in doubt, and about which the Parliamentary Secretary also seemed to be in doubt, was this question of breaking up streets. I agree with the noble Lord that that is covered and, therefore, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 65:
  Power to make safety regulations
  65. The Minister may make such regulations as he thinks fit for the purpose of securing that the public is so far as practicable protected from any personal injury, fire, explosion or other dangers arising from the distribution of gas by an Area Board or the use of gas supplied by an Area Board.
  4.48 p.m.
  LORD ROCHDALE LORD ROCHDALE moved to omit "may" and insert. "shall within twelve months after the vesting date." The noble Lord said: This is a very simple Amendment. This clause deals with the power to make safety regulations in the various gas-producing plants. The Amendment says that these regulations shall be made within twelve months after the vesting date. A good deal has been said during the Committee stage in your Lordships' House in relation to delays which have taken place in the production of regulations in other nationalisation Bills, and it seems to me important that, where these regulations are concerned with a question of public safety, there should be a definite time limit within which initial regulations at least should be made. I imagine that the sort of regulations that would be included are already in existence throughout the country, and I cannot see that any delay would be likely in making these regulations as there might be in some of the other regulations dealing with compensation, and so forth, where delay has in fact occurred. Reading my Amendment again, I am not sure that I have not made the period too long, but in order to make quite sure that His Majesty's Government accept the very definite need for urgency in these safety regulations, I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 79, line 40, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall within twelve months after the vesting date").—(Lord Rochdale.)
  LORD CHORLEY: I am sorry that we cannot accept this Amendment either. I am afraid the noble Lord who moved it does not appreciate that there are substantial difficulties in the way of getting out a code of regulations on this matter. I am sure the noble Lord understands that his Amendment would make it mandatory on the Minister to get this code of safety regulations out within twelve months. In the past there has been no power vested in any Minister to make general safety regulations for the gas industry. Here and there, there have been certain by-laws which have laid down rules, which differ very much indeed from one part of the country to another, and I am assured that the job of sorting them all out and working out a completely new code will be a fairly substantial business—much more so than the noble Lord apparently has in mind.

  731
  There is another reason why this Amendment is unacceptable: it would prevent the Minister from varying any regulations which he had made within this period. I am sure that on reflection the noble Lord will agree with me that there should be opportunity for periodical revision of any regulations laid down, especially in the light of what I have told him as to the absence of any uniform scheme in the past. When a uniform scheme has been promulgated it will be necessary to watch it in operation, but the course which the noble Lord is suggesting would not enable the Minister to do that. It is not an Amendment which should be accepted and I hope the noble Lord will withdraw it.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: Before the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, thinks again on this matter, I should like to make one point to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley. One agrees that there should be power to vary regulations; but when we come to the arguments which the noble Lord used against having the regulations brought out within a certain period of the vesting date, I think we are subjected to a little special pleading. Under Clause 17, subsection (1), the Minister can decide:
  "…immediately before such date as may be appointed by order of the Minister (in this Act referred to as 'the vesting date').…"
  That means that the Minister can decide the vesting date. As I see it, in order that there should not be too great a difference in time between the regulations which we are talking about and the vesting date, and in order that there should be some relation between them, my noble friend has put down his Amendment. What we urge is that the Minister should not appoint a vesting date which is out of all tune with the possibility of making the regulations which are necessary round about that date, but that the two should be in harmony, so that we do not have regulations coming out which dislocate the whole gas industry because they are not in relationship with the vesting date.
  LORD ROCHDALE: I am very disappointed with the attitude which the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has taken up in regard to this Amendment. I fully appreciate how difficult it would be to make a final code of regulations within
  732
  even twelve months, but to make a provisional code seems to me to be perfectly possible. I agree with the noble Lord that any code will be subject, and will have to be subject, to variations. I do not think I have ever seen any Government publication that had not to be frequently amended. And I see every reason to suppose that this one—and even the ultimate one of which the noble Lord speaks—will have to be amended from time to time. Before I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, I would ask the noble Lord whether he would be prepared to consider whether somehow the word "provisionally" could be introduced. It would mean some slight redrafting which could perhaps be done before the Report stage.
  LORD CHORLEY: I am always glad to look at any suggestion made by the noble Lord, or by any other noble Lord, on these matters. While I cannot give him any sort of undertaking I will certainly have that matter looked at.
  LORD ROCHDALE: I am grateful to the noble Lord, and on that assurance I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD ROCHDALE LORD ROCHDALE moved to add to the clause:
  "(2) Nothing in any local enactment or in any order or bye-law made thereunder which is directed to any purpose specified in the last preceding subsection shall be construed as applying to any gas fitting which conforms with the provisions of any regulations directed to the like purpose and made under that subsection."
  The noble Lord said: This Amendment also deals with regulations for safety precautions. All it seeks to do is to ensure that where any regulations made under this clause specify a standard for fittings that may be used, that shall be the standard which shall be employed, and not a standard which may have been laid down in any existing enactment or in any order or by-law made thereunder. In other words, so long as these fittings comply with the particular regulations made under this clause, then those fittings shall be allowed to be used. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 79, line 44, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Rochdale.)
  LORD CHORLEY: I am obliged to the noble Lord for the principle of this

  733
  Amendment, and I am glad to accept that principle. I do not think the wording which the noble Lord has chosen is sufficiently wide, because it refers to gas fittings; that is, things in the nature of cookers, gas fires and appliances of that kind. Our view is that it would be better if it covered gas distribution, and we should like to consider gas distribution systems in an Amendment which would cover also what is in the noble Lord's mind. If he will withdraw his Amendment on that basis, we will put something down at a later stage to cover the whole matter.
  LORD ROCHDALE: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that undertaking, and in the light of it I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 65 agreed to.
  Clause 66 agreed to.
  Clause 67 [Provisions as to prosecutions and as to offences by corporations]:
  4.58 p.m.
  LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY moved to add to subsection (2):
  "In this subsection, the expression 'director', in relation to any Area Board or the Gas Council or any other body corporate established by or under any enactment for the purpose of carrying on under national ownership any industry or part of an industry or undertaking, being a body corporate whose affairs are managed by the members thereof, means a member of that Board, Council or body corporate."
  The noble Lord said: This Amendment makes it clear that Clause 67, subsection (2), which is the usual provision making directors and officers of a body corporate liable for various offences of the body corporate, shall also cover members of the Area Boards and of the Gas Council; and also—and I would draw your Lordships' attention particularly to this—members of the board of any other nationalised industry. Your Lordships will remember that this matter was raised by some noble Lords opposite very pertinently and cogently during the discussion on the Motor Spirit Regulation Bill, and it was then agreed in principle that this ought to be done. In another place an Amendment was put down but was not called at Report stage. We feel, however, that it is necessary that there should be something of the kind, and we have indeed gone rather further with
  734
  our Amendment in that we are, as I have said, including members of the boards of other nationalised industries. I am sure this Amendment will meet with your Lordships' approval. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 80, line 37, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Chorley.)
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I am sure that my noble friends on these Benches are most grateful to the noble Lord for the Amendment which he has just moved. So grateful are we that we feel that it ought to be passed at the earliest possible moment. Therefore, there will be only a very short speech from me. There is no doubt that the Bill is improved by this Amendment. There is no doubt that the Amendment as drafted is a better Amendment than the one which stands in my name immediately after it on the Marshalled List. For that reason, I shall not move the Amendment following which stands in my name.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 67, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 68 to 71 agreed to.
  Clause 72:
  Interpretation.
  72.—(1) In this Act, except where the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say—
  "enactment" means any provision of a public general Act, of a local, private or personal Act, of a provisional order confirmed by an Act or of any regulation or order made under an Act;
  "local authority" means the council of a county borough, county district or metropolitan borough, and the common council of the City of London, and includes, in section nine of this Act, the council of a county, and also includes in any other provision of this Act except the said section nine any joint board of local authorities having functions as statutory undertakers and also other functions;
  LORD CHORLEY: This is a drafting Amendment of a similar character to others which have preceded it and which my noble and learned friend has already explained. It is because of the fact that the Companies Consolidation Act has now been passed. Therefore, it is merely drafting. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 83, line 23, leave out ("1929") and insert ("1948").—(Lord Chorley.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  5.2 p.m.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN moved to add to the definition of "enactment":
  "or any order made under a regulation made under an Act"
  The noble Viscount said: I hope that the noble Lord opposite will agree that this Amendment is likewise little more than a drafting Amendment. As the Bill now stands,
  "'enactment' means any provision…of a provisional order confirmed by an Act or of any regulation or order made under an Act."
  So far so good. But what the Bill does not do is to cover certain orders which are not directly made under an Act but which are authorised, as I understand it, by Defence of the Realm Regulations. Those Defence of the Realm Regulations are made under an Act. Therefore, we want this definition to cover the Acts themselves, the "sons" of the Acts (which are covered now), and also the "grandsons" of the Acts (which are not covered). I hope I have made the matter as clear as I can. It is important because certain undertakings have been authorised to pay dividends greater than would have been permitted by their private Acts and orders, by virtue of an order which is called the Gas (Maximum and Standard Prices) Order, 1942. That is an order which is made in pursuance of Section 56 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, 1939. It seems quite plain that this definition should cover everything which has the force of law. We think that it does not do so at present, and we are anxious that it should. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 83, line 37, at end insert ("or any order made under a regulation made under an Act").—(Viscount Bridgeman.)
  LORD CHORLEY: I quite agree with the noble Viscount who has just moved this Amendment. It is purely a drafting point, so far as I can see. I am instructed that it is really quite unnecessary. An order of the kind referred to in the Amendment undoubtedly derives force from the main Act, even though there is an intervening instrument. Further, I am instructed that it is the invariable drafting practice in matters of this kind to rely upon
  736
  the phrase "under an Act" as covering such subordinate instruments, and that therefore the noble Viscount has moved an Amendment which is really misconceived and unnecessary.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I take it from the noble Lord's reply that the case I instanced—namely, that of orders made under Section 56 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, 1939—is covered.
  LORD CHORLEY: I have not actually a case in mind; my instructions are of a somewhat general character. As the noble Lord has mentioned that point, I will have it specifically looked at. If, contrary to my expectations, it should turn out that he is right, I will have the matter dealt with at Report stage.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I am much obliged for the noble Lord's reply. In the light of that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD CHORLEY: This is another of the "Companies Act" Amendments. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 84, line 43, leave out ("1947") and insert ("1948").—(Lord Chorley.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD O'HAGAN LORD O'HAGAN moved in the definition of "local authority," after "section nine" to insert "and section seventy-one." The noble Lord said: There is a misprint in the Amendment as it appears in the Marshalled List. The line to which it is proposed is line 12, not line 14. Your Lordships will observe that in Clause 71 there are two provisos. The first is that
  "no local authority shall be ordered to pay costs under subsection (4)…unless they are a party"
  to the inquiry that has been set up. The second proviso in that clause has the same effect in regard to Scotland. Therefore, I think it probably correct to say that this Amendment deals with what would appear to be an oversight; it will bring in the county councils to obtain the benefits given to other local authorities under the two provisos to which I have already alluded. It is a technical Amendment. I think it was put down in another place, but the discussion that took place upon it did not appear to me to be directed to the point that I have endeavoured to make

  737
  here. The intention of the Amendment is to correct what seems to me to be an oversight. I trust that His Majesty's Government will see their way to accept it. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 85, line 12, after ("nine") insert ("and section seventy-one").—(Lord O'Hagan.)
  LORD CHORLEY: The point which the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment has in mind has already been considered in the light of his Amendment. The view taken is that the matter is already covered, and that therefore there is no need expressly to exclude these joint boards. In effect, if the noble Lord's Amendment were accepted, it would be surplusage. There would be no harm in it, but it would not, in fact, make any difference.
  LORD O'HAGAN: I would inquire from the noble Lord whether that means that the county councils do come under it and are subject to the provisos in Clause 71 that were alluded to. If that is so, then I will not press the matter.
  LORD CHORLEY: That is the view that is taken. It is entirely a matter of construction. The provisos to Clause 71 can only affect local authorities within the meaning of the respective Acts referred to in that clause. As a result of that, it is not regarded as necessary expressly to exclude these bodies.
  LORD HAWKE: Is the noble Lord quite certain that the Amendment with which he is dealing is the Amendment, as amended by my noble friend, which was put down on the Marshalled List? When I first studied the Amendment on the Marshalled List, I had grave difficulty in following what it meant. It was only when I heard that it had been put down in the wrong line that it became simple.
  LORD CHORLEY: That point has been looked at, and I am informed that it does not make any difference. However, as the noble Lords are doubtful about it, I shall be glad to have the matter looked at again, and if those who instruct me feel that, in the light of information received, enlightened by the discussion that they have listened to, there is need to deal with this matter, I shall be glad to give an assurance that we will put it down and deal with it.
  LORD O'HAGAN: I am obliged to the noble Lord for what he has said. I think there is a misapprehension here. However, in view of the assurance he has given, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD ROCHDALE: This Amendment goes with an Amendment which was agreed to in Clause I. When the noble and learned Viscount accepted that Amendment, however, he said that when we came to this, which merely amplifies the previous one, he might have to consider the wording of it. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 85, line 20, at end insert—
  "'Metallurgical coke' means coke produced in coke ovens where the main object of such coke ovens is not the production of gas for sale and where it is of quality primarily and customarily used for the smelting, melting, or refining of ores or metals."—(Lord Rochdale.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The noble Lord is quite right. The noble and learned Viscount did give that undertaking, and if the noble Lord will withdraw this Amendment, the principle will be considered at the same time as the Amendment which he had accepted in principle in Clause 1.
  LORD ROCHDALE: I am grateful to the noble Lord, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD TEYNHAM: In moving the next Amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lord Swinton, I would like to suggest one alteration in the drafting—namely, after the word "body" to insert the word "corporate." I think this Amendment does not intend to bring in all corporations and I think it may do so unless this word "corporate" is inserted. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 86, line 19, leave out from ("body") to ("and") in line 23 and insert ("corporate").—(Lord Teynham.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Of course, the alteration which the noble Lord has made to the Amendment makes a fundamental difference. This is not now the same Amendment as it was before, because the case could be argued on the ground that debentures are very widely dealt with on the Stock Exchange, and,

  739
  logically, they should be compensated on the same principle. The Amendment as it stood before was not quite clear. This makes it a little more clear, but I am afraid I cannot accept it.
  LORD TEYNHAM: The Amendment is really nothing more than a consequential Amendment to one made on Clause 25.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: If what the noble Lord has said is right, I will take it back and get instructions on it, but I have no information about that.
  LORD TEYNHAM: Certainly. We would very much like it to be looked into, and on the assurance of the noble Lord, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This is consequential upon the passing of the Companies Act, 1948. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 86, line 33, leave out ("1947") and insert ("1948").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 72, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  First Schedule, agreed to.
  Second Schedule:
  Issue of British Gas Stock in satisfaction of compensation.

  PART I.
  5. Where the holder of any securities becomes, under this Part of this Schedule, instead the holder of British Gas Stock, he shall hold that stock in the same right and on the same trusts and subject to the same powers, privileges, charges, restraints and liabilities as those in, on or subject to which he held those securities, and any provision of any deed, will, disposition or other instrument, and any statutory provision as to what is to be done by the holder of the securities or the redemption moneys thereof, shall, with any necessary modifications, have effect in relation to the said stock or the redemption moneys thereof as it would have had effect in relation to the securities or the redemption moneys thereof if they had not been extinguished:
  Provided that—
  (a) any beneficial interest of any undertaker to whom Part II of this Act applies, other than an ancillary gas undertaker or an undertaker who is not a body corporate, in any of the said securities shall be treated as having passed to the appropriate Board and the preceding provisions of this paragraph shall have effect accordingly;
  LORD O'HAGAN LORD O'HAGAN moved, in paragraph 2, to leave out "amount" and insert "the respective amounts". The noble Lord said: I hope that the noble Lord opposite will agree that this is really an obvious drafting Amendment. Paragraph 2 of Part I says:
  "The holders of any securities to which this Part of this Schedule applies…"
  will be holders of the amount of Gas Stock to which they are entitled. I think the case is pretty clear. I hope that I am right in saying that. If this Amendment is made I should point out that an Amendment in the same words would follow in the corresponding provisions on page 91, line 33. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 90, line 13, leave out ("amount") and insert ("the respective amounts").—(Lord O'Hagan.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am advised that the present wording is to be preferred to that which has been put forward by the noble Lord, but as he appears to consider it a matter of substance I will gladly accept it.
  LORD O'HAGAN: I am much obliged to the noble Lord.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved, in paragraph 5, after "securities" (where that word occurs a second time) to insert:
  "(not being a power exercisable by such holder against the person creating the securities)."
  The noble Lord said: Paragraph 5 deals with the privileges, charges, restraints and liabilities, which might have existed in respect of the holding of a gas company's stock, which is now replaced by British Gas Stock. It rightly makes it possible for the same wills, trusts and so on, to prevail, but in our view it goes a little further and possibly confers on people who held debentures and had them exchanged for Gas Stock the same powers as they held as debenture holders of the original gas undertaking. The debenture holders, of course, have various powers. They can put in Receivers, they can make demands for redemption and so on, and failure to deal with that point is, in our view, an oversight in the Bill. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 90, line 32, after ("securities") insert the said new words.—(Lord Hawke.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Paragraph 5 of Part 1 of the Second Schedule provides for British Gas Stock issued to trustees, being held on the same trust as the securities for which it is issued, and for any reference in the wills and other instruments to those securities to have effect as a reference to British Gas Stock. I think the noble Lord fears that the provision in line 31 that British Gas Stock is to be held subject to the same powers, privileges, charges, restraints and liabilities, would cover powers flowing from the security itself—that is, voting rights in regard to ordinary stock or powers to appoint a Receiver in the case of debentures. I think the noble Lord will agree that the Amendment is unnecessary, since the scope of the paragraph is clearly limited to the purposes specified above, and it is inconceivable that the rights of the holders of the undertakers' securities, such as voting rights and rights to appoint Receivers mentioned above, should attach to the single type of British Gas Stock to be issued for all those securities. On those grounds I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment.
  LORD HAWKE: If the noble Lord considers that the Gas Council will sleep easily in their beds with the Bill as it now stands, I am willing to accept his view. I was only attempting to improve the Bill for their purposes. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Third Schedule:
  Code of Provisions relating to Gas Supply.
  2. Before an Area Board proceed to open or break up any street, bridge, sewer, drain or tunnel, they shall give to the person under whose control or management it may be, or to his clerk, surveyor or other officer, notice in writing of the Board's intention, not less than fourteen clear days before beginning the work, except in cases of emergency arising from defects in any pipes or other works, and then as soon as possible after the occurrence of the emergency.
  5. When an Area Board open or break up any street, bridge, sewer, drain or tunnel, they shall with all convenient speed complete the work, fill in the ground, and reinstate or make good the street, bridge, sewer, drain or tunnel, and carry away the rubbish occasioned thereby, and shall at all times, while any
  742
  street or bridge is so opened or broken up, cause it to be fenced or guarded, and cause a light sufficient for the warning of passengers to be set up and maintained at night against or near the street or bridge, and keep the street or bridge in good repair for three months after making it good, and for such further time, if any, not being more than twelve months altogether, as the soil broken up continues to subside.
  35.…
  (2) The notice required to be given by the last preceding sub-paragraph may, in the case of unoccupied premises, the owner or lessee of which is unknown to the Area Board and cannot be ascertained after diligent inquiry, be given by affixing it upon a conspicuous part of the premises not less than forty-eight hours before the premises are entered:
  Provided that, where an entry is made on the premises which could not lawfully have been made but for the provisions of this subparagraph the premises shall be left no less secure than they were immediately before they were entered, and the Board shall make good or pay compensation for any damage caused to the premises by the exercise of powers under this sub-paragraph.
  5.20 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Amendments were put down on the Report stage in another place which sought to provide first, that an Area Board should give fourteen days' notice before entry, but secondly, that in cases of emergency an Area Board should enter without notice. This Amendment is simply intended to fulfil in undertaking which was given and it is really consequential. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 93, line 19, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
  "(b) an Area Board may, after giving notice in writing to the owners and occupiers of the land or building not less than fourteen clear days before the entry, enter upon any land (not being a street to which proviso (a) to this sub-paragraph applies) or building for the purpose of placing a new pipe in the place of an existing pipe, which has already been lawfully placed or of repairing or altering any pipe lawfully placed, so, however, that entry may be made without such notice in cases of emergency arising from defects in any pipes, but notice shall then be given as soon as possible after the occurrence of the emergency."—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: We quite agree with the drafting of the Amendment which has just been proposed by the noble Lord opposite, with the exception of one

  743
  point—that is the period of fourteen days. Your Lordships will notice that I have an Amendment down immediately following this one, to leave out the word "fourteen" which appears in the Bill as originally drafted and insert "three." Perhaps it might be for the convenience of the Committee if I made my point on that now in discussing the Amendment which has just been moved. Frankly, we have all been a good deal puzzled by the sudden decision to go up to fourteen days as the period for giving notice, because three days is the period of notice which is in the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847, and so far as one can tell it has worked perfectly smoothly, for a hundred years. In the original Bill, I think, the period of three days was to be found; then, suddenly, in Committee in another place, the Minister came along and asked for fourteen days to be substituted. Now fourteen days is a very long time and I do not think that any explanation has been given as to why it has suddenly proved necessary to provide for a much longer period of notice. It is not merely a question of emergency. I know quite well that in case of emergency gas pipes can be taken up without having to give fourteen days' notice. But, surely, the Gas Department wishes to give good and prompt service to the consumer. Why on earth, therefore, should we suddenly have a provision made whereby there will be a delay of fourteen days, when, for the last hundred years, we have got on quite nicely with three days?
  And that is not quite all the story, according to my information. I believe that consideration has now been given to the introduction of a Bill called the Breaking Up of Streets Bill which, I gather, is to deal with all matters in respect of which it is necessary to break up streets for any given purpose. Furthermore, I understand that in the discussions which have taken place up to now, the period of notice which has been discussed has been not fourteen days but seven days. For that reason, it appears to me to be "curiouser and curiouser" that the period of fourteen days should suddenly have been chosen for insertion here. I would have thought that there was no real reason why the old statutory period of three days should not be used. But, as I say, in the light of the discussions which I have
  744
  heard, the use of the period fourteen days as opposed to that of seven days seems very strange. I shall be grateful to the noble Lord opposite if he can give us some enlightenment as to what is really afoot in this connection.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I agree with the noble Viscount that this does seem strange. I gather that he is now dealing with the subject of the next Amendment which stands in the joint names of himself and Lord Lloyd. If it is convenient to the Committee perhaps I may deal with that Amendment now.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Amendment was to the clause as orginally drafted.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: When the Bill was first published, three days was the period which was inserted, but representations were received from local authorities, who protested that under modern conditions three days was far too short a period. A compromise was arrived at, and an Amendment to insert fourteen days was moved as a Government Amendment in another place. The noble Viscount will be interested, I am sure, to learn that this was appreciated to a marked extent, and Mr. Brendan Bracken said:
  "Certainly fourteen is better than three, and that is all I have to say."
  The Government have no very firm ideas on this point and are willing to accept the noble Viscount's suggestion—or perhaps it might be deemed better to arrive at a compromise half-way between the two and make the period seven days. If seven days is agreeable to the noble Viscount, I can assure him that it is equally agreeable to me.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: The noble Lord has met my point very fairly. I think, and I hope that he will agree with me, that it is better to have the same sauce for the goose as for the gander—that is, to have the same period, whatever it may be, in the Breaking Up of Streets Bill, as we have in any other Act which affects the breaking up of streets. I do not know what would suit the noble Lord best. Possibly he would prefer that I should not move my Amendment, on the understanding that the matter can be discussed between now and the Report stage.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I agree to that, on the understanding that seven days is the agreed period.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I suggest that the matter might well he discussed between now and Report stage and that the period of seven days appears to have certain merits. On that understanding, I will not move my Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, in paragraph 5, after "guarded" to insert: "make arrangements, where necessary, for the control of traffic." The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is a simple one. It is to ensure that when a highway may be obstructed, perhaps by the operations of an Area Board carrying out works in connection with gas and so on, they shall be responsible for making arrangements, where necessary, for the control of traffic. I think the Bill, as drawn, merely repeats the road opening provisions of the Gasworks Clauses Act of 1847. Of course, since that date traffic on the roads has greatly increased. I think that some responsibility should be given to Area Boards to make provision for the control of traffic. In recent years, road opening in connection with these bulk supply gas mains has become much more extensive. I understand that similar provisions were put into the Water Act of 1945. They appear, I believe, in Section 26 (2). I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 94, line 29, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Teynham.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: There is considerable point in what the noble Lord says, but it is doubtful whether control of traffic is a matter for which Area Boards should take any responsibility or whether it is within their province to make any such arrangements. The point will have to be looked into. If the noble Lord will withdraw the Amendment, I will undertake to have the matter looked into between now and the Report stage to see if something can be done to meet his point.
  LORD TEYNHAM: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his offer and, in the circumstances, I willingly withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 94, line 42, after ("3") insert ("paragraph 4").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD ROCHDALE LORD ROCHDALE moved, in paragraph 8 (1), after "Board" (where that word occurs a second time) to insert "through which the Board are for the time being distributing gas." The noble Lord said: This is a very simple Amendment. As the Bill is now drafted, any occupied premises within twenty-five yards of a main is entitled to claim a supply of gas. I understand there are "dead" mains, mains which have become redundant because new ones have been laid along a different course. The Amendment seeks to make certain that this right to claim a supply of gas applies only where the main is being used at present. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 95, line 22, at end insert the said new words.—(Lord Rochdale.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Lord for moving this Amendment, as it removes what might be an embarrassing position for the Area Boards. I accept it.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEYThe noble Lord's views on redundant gas mains are different from his views on redundant gas works.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved in paragraph 8 (2) after "occupier" (where that word, occurs a second time) to insert "not being dedicated to public use." The noble Lord said: This Amendment refers to the payment by the consumer for service pipes. As the Bill is drawn, the consumer is liable to pay for the cost of all service pipes on his land, including land up to the centre of the highway which may run near his house. It has been the practice for private companies not to make the consumer pay for that part of the pipe under the road from the centre line, and only for that part where it entered the consumer's premises. I understand that one of the municipal corporations did insist on payment for pipes laid under the road from the centre line, and I suppose that under the strict interpretation of the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847, they are so entitled. This Amendment will have the effect of

  747
  protecting the consumer against demands for such payments and will continue the practice of the private gas companies. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 95, line 32, after ("occupier") insert ("not being dedicated to public use").—(Lord Teynham.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Again I am grateful to the noble Lord for moving such a helpful Amendment, which I shall be pleased to accept if he would make one slight alteration, which is really a matter of grammar. Would the noble Lord be prepared to insert the word "property" between the word "being" and "dedicated," so that the Amendment would read, "not being property dedicated to public use"? I think that is what the noble Lord really means.
  LORD TEYNHAM: Certainly. I will withdraw my Amendment and move it as now worded.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 95, line 32, after ("occupier") insert ("not being property dedicated to public use").—(Lord Teynham.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY moved in paragraph 8, after sub-paragraph (2) to insert:
  "(3) The Area Board shall carry out any necessary work of maintenance, repair or renewal of any such pipe which is provided and laid at the cost of the owner or occupier of any premises, and may recover the expenses reasonably incurred by them in so doing from the owner or occupier of the premises.
  (4) Nothing in the last two preceding subparagraphs shall be taken as affecting any rights or obligations as between the owner and occupier of the premises in relation to any such pipe as aforesaid."
  The noble Lord said: This Amendment has been framed in order to meet the point made in the Amendment put down by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke and the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale. We are grateful to them for the point in their Amendment, which deals with the maintenance and payment for such maintenance of pipes laid at the request of a property owner. The difficulty about the Amendment, as tabled by the noble Lords, was that the expression "any such pipe" was a little ambiguous, and therefore we have inserted the words which your Lordships see in order to
  748
  make clear what was meant. Further, the Government Amendment is drafted in such a way as to leave it open to Area Boards to recover the expenses from either owner or occupier, as may be appropriate. I am sure your Lordships will think that these are useful improvements on the original Amendment and will accept the Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 95, line 35, at end insert the said subsections.—(Lord Chorley.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD HAMPTON LORD HAMPTON moved, in paragraph 11, to leave out "by whom the lamps are maintained" and insert:
  "who are the lighting authority for the street in which the lamps are placed."
  The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Wolverton I beg to move the Amendment standing in our joint names. This is practically a drafting Amendment. The Bill does no more than blindly copy the out-of-date wording contained in previous Acts. It refers to the public authority as "the authority by whom the lamps are maintained." That is wrong, because it is well-known—except to the Government, perhaps—that a great many public lamps are owned and maintained by gas undertakings and not by local authorities or other public lighting authorities. Therefore, in these cases, the Bill refers to the gas undertakers when it seeks to refer to the lighting authorities. In other words, the Amendment makes the Bill say what it means. I think the noble Lord will agree that is an eminently desirable object, if we can in any way attain it.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 97, line 22, leave out from ("authority") to ("may") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Hampton.)
  LORD CHORLEY: As the noble Lord has said, this is purely a drafting Amendment. My instructions, again, are that it is not really necessary, and that the words in the clause are sufficient to cover the case—namely, where the maintenance is carried out by independent workmen, either of the local authority or employed under contract by the undertakers. If that is so, it does not seem that the noble Lord's Amendment is really necessary.
  LORD HAMPTON: While thanking the noble Lord for his reply, he did not sound very certain as to whether, in fact, it was covered. I do not know whether he would look into it again, before I withdraw my Amendment, and make absolutely certain that it is covered.
  LORD CHORLEY: I will be glad to look into it again if the noble Lord wishes me to, especially on a somewhat difficult point of drafting. It is an advantage to those who advise me to have heard the point exactly put by the noble Lord, and I shall be glad to have it looked into.
  LORD HAMPTON: I am grateful to the noble Lord, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  5.39 p.m.
  LORD LLOYD LORD LLOYD moved in paragraph 14 (3) after "inspect" to insert "overhaul." The noble Lord said: This is another attempt from this side of the House to assist the Government in their drafting. It is really no more than a drafting Amendment. The Bill, at page 65, empowers the Minister to make regulations for meters to be overhauled and here, at page 98, the Area Boards are given the right to "remove, inspect, and replace any meter"—that includes meters belonging to consumers—but there is no mention of overhauling them. I imagine that sometimes they might want to overhaul meters without removing them but, as the Bill now stands, this clause does not give them that power; indeed, by implication it might exclude it. I feel that His Majesty's Government may like to have this word inserted in the Bill. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 98, line 5, after ("inspect") insert ("overhaul").—(Lord Lloyd.)
  LORD CHORLEY: I am obliged for the intention of the noble Lord, which is obviously meant to be helpful, but in this case I am clear that his suggestion is not the right one. If he looks again at the words which he has quoted, "remove, inspect and replace," he will see that they are concerned with a quite different type of operation from "overhaul," which is not dealt with in this context at all. If it were necessary to overhaul the meter, it would be taken away and dealt with by a different process. Paragraph 14 (3) of
  750
  the Third Schedule gives the right to remove, and afterwards to overhaul. I think the noble Lord will agree that the word "overhaul" inappropriate to be inserted among these other words in this context, and I hope he will not press the Amendment.
  LORD LLOYD: As I said, the Amendment is moved entirely with the object of assisting the Government. If the noble Lord is satisfied that he has all the powers he needs in this case, far be it from me to give him any more. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY moved to omit paragraph 17, and insert:
  Maximum charges for re-selling gas supplied by Area Boards.
  "17.—(1) Every Area Board shall, as soon as practicable after the passing of this Act, fix maximum prices at which gas supplied by them may be resold, and may from time to time vary any prices so fixed, and shall publish the prices so fixed and any variation thereof in such manner as in their opinion will secure adequate publicity therefor.
  (2) Different prices may be fixed under this paragraph in different classes of cases which may be defined by reference to areas, tariffs applicable to gas supplied by the Area Board in question, or any other relevant circumstances.
  (3) If any person resells any gas supplied by an Area Board at a price exceeding the maximum price fixed under this paragraph and applicable thereto, the amount of the excess shall, if it does not exceed twenty pounds, be recoverable summarily as a civil debt by the person to whom the gas was resold and, in any case, shall be recoverable by him in any court of competent jurisdiction."
  The noble Lord said: I am sure your Lordships will agree with the usefulness of this Amendment. It is intended to deal essentially with an abuse which, unfortunately, is rather widespread, according to the information in my possession—namely, the abuse of overcharging by landlords; some people would say that overcharging by landladies was even more common, and even more of an abuse. They obtain gas in bulk from the gas undertakers, and they pass it on to the tenants, really giving nothing but taking a great deal by way of extra charges. A large number of complaints have been coming to the Ministry, especially in connection with the provision of slot meters, which are set in such a way as to register excessive and quite unjustifiable charges. I am sure your Lordships will agree that

  751
  this is an abuse which needs to be dealt with, and I hope you think that this Amendment is one which deals with it effectively. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 99, line 1, leave out paragraph 17, and insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Chorley.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD ROCHDALE LORD ROCHDALE moved in paragraph 34 (1) after "supplied" to insert
  "or (at the request of the occupier) installing fixing repairing renewing or replacing any gas fittings."
  The noble Lord said: This Amendment is merely to safeguard an occupier tenant who wants a supply of gas but whose landlord, for some particular reason, may want to restrict his use. As the clause stands, it would be possible for such a landlord to prevent the servants of the Area Board from entering in, in order to provide that supply of gas or to repair the existing fittings. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 103, line 23, after ("supplied") insert the said words.—(Lord Rochdale.)
  LORD CHORLEY: It is rather difficult to see why the particular words should be required. The sort of case which the noble Lord has in mind, as I understand him, is one where the occupier wishes to have some work done on the premises. Obviously, in that case the workmen will come at his invitation. It seems unnecessary to have these words. The clause itself deals with a case where the Area Board's workpeople need to enter for the purpose of carrying out some work which is essential from the point of view of the Area Board. I cannot see why the noble Lord has moved this Amendment.
  LORD ROCHDALE: Perhaps the noble Lord has not quite grasped the point. As I understand it, as the Bill is at present drafted it would be possible for a landlord through whose land the supply of gas went to the premises under discussion to prevent the servants of the Area Board from going across that land to do the work. Therefore, the occupier who was applying for a supply of gas would not get his gas or would not get his repairs done. My Amendment seeks to safeguard such an occupier.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY: I think it also applies to the case of an owner of a house who does not want his tenant to have gas. This Amendment says that he cannot prevent the agent or the servant of the Area Board coming in to instal the gas fittings if the occupier wants it done. It is part of the important principle of freedom of choice which we discussed this afternoon. I hope to move an Amendment on that principle when we come to the Report stage. The Amendment means that if a tenant of the house wants gas, and asks for it, the landlord cannot say (I believe there have been a few cases like this) "I will not have gas put into the house."
  LORD CHORLEY: I am obliged to both noble Lords for the further explanation. If the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, will withdraw the Amendment now, perhaps we can have a word on it between now and Report stage.
  LORD ROCHDALE: I am grateful to the noble Lord for agreeing to look into the matter further, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD LLOYD LORD LLOYD moved, in paragraph 35, to omit the proviso to sub-paragraph (2). The noble Lord said: It will probably be for the convenience of your Lordships if this Amendment, and those at page 104, line 22, and page 105, line 8, are taken together. They all deal with the same point of forcible entry into premises. As your Lordships will see on page 104, in one particular case it is entry for the purpose of removing pipes on discontinuance of supply. There is a proviso that all damage caused by such an entry shall be made good, and that the premises shall be left as secure as they were when the entry was made. There is a similar proviso at line 11—or rather an attempted provison—to cover the powers of entry in paragraph 35 (1), although in point of fact I am advised that, owing to the use of the word "sub-paragraph," that particular proviso does not work.
  The object of this Amendment is to extend the necessity for leaving the premises as secure as when they were entered, and for making good damage, for reasons which I will now explain. These two instances of the right to enter

  753
  premises are by no means the only instances in this Bill. There are, I think, eight different places in this Schedule where that right is given. I will not weary the House by quoting them all, although I have a note of them if the noble Lord wants details. In none of those eight cases is there any proviso, so far as I can see, that in such a case of entry the damage shall be made good and the premises left secure. Indeed, the fact that there is a specific proviso in the two cases which I have mentioned may mean, by implication, that there is no duty to make good damage and to leave the premises secure in the other cases. I feel that this is a very important proviso, from the point of view of the ordinary individual whose premises may be entered. What these three Amendments seek to do is to leave out these specific provisos where they occur on page 104, and put them in on page 105—an omnibus proviso, which will make any Area Board entering premises responsible to repair any damage and to leave those premises secure. I cannot help feeling that this is a reasonable Amendment and, from the point of view of the ordinary man in the street, a very important Amendment. I hope, therefore, that the Government will see their way to accept it. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 104, line 11, leave out from beginning to the end of line 16.—(Lord Lloyd.)
  LORD CHORLEY: It may be that there is a slight gap here which needs to be covered. The point, of course, is that this concerns a case where unoccupied premises have been entered, and it is obviously necessary that in those cases they should be left secure. I am quite sure that, if there are any cases which are not covered, we would want to put that right. The noble Lord has suggested that it may well be that there are some cases. I shall be glad to have it looked at and, if it is found that that is so, to give the necessary protection for which he is asking.
  LORD LLOYD: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. I can show him a number of cases which, I am advised, are not covered, and perhaps we could get together between now and the
  754
  Report stage. On his assurance, I shall be glad to withdraw my Amendment now.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD CHORLEY: This is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 104, line 24, at end insert—
  Penalty for obstruction.
  ("36. If any person obstructs any officer exercising powers under either of the two last preceding paragraphs, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds.").—(Lord Chorley.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Fourth Schedule [Enactments repealed]:
  LORD CHORLEY: This Amendment is in the way of a drafting Amendment. There is a small mistake in the Repeals Schedule. The Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892 was actually repealed by the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947, and, therefore, the provision in this Act is quite unnecessary. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 106, line 40, column 3, leave out from beginning of line 40 to.("in") in line 41.—(Lord Chorley.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Remaining Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  House resumed.

  EXPORT GUARANTEES BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a; and to be printed.
  AGRICULTURE WAGES BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
  FACTORIES BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to with an Amendment: the said Amendment to be printed.
  VETERINARY SURGEONS BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to with Amendments: the said Amendments to be printed.

  WHITSTABLE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on June 28 and Tuesday last discharged, and Bill committed.
  House adjourned at six o'clock.