Sitting of 29 January 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Anglo-Dutch Negotiations
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement regarding trade negotiations that have taken place with the Dutch Government.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): These negotiations were adjourned before Christmas, after a preliminary exchange of views, and will be resumed in the Hague early next month.

    Anglo-Soviet Negotiations
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a further statement regarding the trade negotiations between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the Soviet Union.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) on 22nd January.
    Sir T. Moore: As I have not the answer by me, would the right hon. Gentleman say whether anything has been received yet?
    Mr. Wilson: No, but grain is being loaded, and a number of ships have been chartered to go from this country to pick up grain which will be available at the beginning of February.

    Footwear
    Sir T. Mooreasked the President of the Board of Trade what instructions he has issued to manufacturers regarding the sizes in which ladies' shoes are to be made in future; and whether these will include a reasonable proportion of the larger sizes from 6 upwards.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No instructions are issued to shoe manufacturers as to the range of sizes which they must produce, though arrangements are made to see that makers of larger sizes receive an adequate return both in selling price and raw materials. The proper proportion of all sizes, including the smaller and larger ones, is a matter for each manufacturer to decide in the light of the orders he receives. I am, however, aware that some women who need larger shoes find considerable difficulty in getting them, and I have spoken to the shoe manufacturing and distributing organizations who are meeting shortly to see whether they can devise a means of dealing with this difficulty.
    Sir T. Moore: When the right hon. Gentleman meets the manufacturers will he bear in mind that the shops today are simply stacked with these small, dainty, Cinderella-like shoes? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, they are Cinderellas in that they are always left behind. Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that there must be something to buy for the large, queue-tortured feet?
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the President of the Board of Trade whether a boot and shoe repairer is required by regulation to use his leather allocation solely to meet the requirements of the district in which his works are situated, or whether he may use any raw material available to execute work from adjacent areas.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No, Sir; there are no restrictions on the area from which any licensed shoe repairer may draw custom.
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: Will the right hon. Gentleman make his reply idely known?
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Has there not been an extra allocation of leather in Westminster to inspire the slogan, "Boot out Bevan," which appears on the Embankment?
    Mr. Symondsasked the President of the Board of Trade what he estimates would now be, on the average, the amounts apportionable to leather and other materials, to labour, to overheads, and to profit, respectively, out of a charge of 10s. 6d. for soling and heeling a pair of shoes.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Until we have had a general investigation of costs and profits, we cannot analyse repair charges in the way suggested by my hon. Friend. As my hon. Friends the Members for East Nottingham (Mr. Harrison) and Spen Valley (Mr. Sharp) were informed on Tuesday last, such an investigation is now being undertaken by the Central Price Regulation Committee.
    Mr. Symonds: As there is such a great difference between the Department's figures and those given by the boot repairers, will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Committee report as soon as possible?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. We promise a speedy report in this matter. The price was increased to take account of the increase in leather costs, and we took as our basis the figures supplied by the trade association.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the boot and shoe repairers have been faced with a loss of from 9d. to 1s. 3d. on every pair soled and heeled?
    Mr. Wilson: They are claiming that, an I we have promised them an investigate next month.
    Mr. Sharp: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the price of leather has risen 60 to 70 per cent., and the basis for the figures was a 50 per cent. increase in the price of leather?
    Mr. Attewell: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the cost of a pair of heels and soles, and whether it would reach 2s.?
    Mr. Wilson: Not without notice.
    Mr. Symondsasked the President of the Board of Trade why there is an acute shortage of good quality shoes for children at a time when supplies for adults are plentiful; and, if he will ensure that more leather is allocated for the making
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    of children's shoes by reducing, if necessary, the quantity allocated for the making of shoes for adults.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Leather has for a long time been allocated on a basis which ensures a much higher children's shoe production than before the war. Production of children's shoes is now running at 130 per cent. against about 80 per cent. for adults' ordinary shoes. Seventy-five per cent. of the children's shoe production is utility, which is, on the average, rather better than the standard of pre-war shoes. But I agree that the healthy demand for the highest grades has grown so fast as to outstrip production of them. The limitation here is one of capacity, and not of leather allocations.
    Mr. Symonds: As there are not enough coupons to enable frequent replacements of shoes, will my right hon. Friend increase the quota for the better kinds?

    De-requisitioned Hotel, Blackpool
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the President of the Board of Trade why, when his Department is responsible for assisting owners of requisitioned hotels to re-equip and recondition their hotels after de-requisition, letters dated 4th and 31st December from Blackpool Cliffs Hotel to the Tourist Catering and Holiday Services Division of the Board of Trade have not been answered; and what licences, permits and dockets he intends to issue in this case.
    Mr. H. Wilson: These letters which, incidentally, were sent to the wrong address, were forwarded immediately they were received to the British Tourist and Holidays Board, who are responsible for the distribution of rationed equipment within the hotel industry. The Tourist Board replied to the first letter on 10th December enclosing the necessary application form. This completed form has not yet been returned, but in case it has been overlooked the British Tourist and Holidays Board are sending a duplicate. It is regretted that owing to an oversight the letters were not acknowledged by the Board of Trade before being forwarded to the Tourist Board. As soon as the required information is provided the case will be sympathetically considered.
    Mr. Low: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that this sort of thing does not happen

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    again? Does he realise that the British Tourist Catering and Holiday Services Board did nothing at all until I put down the Question?
    Mr. Wilson: I cannot guarantee that the hon. Gentleman's constituents will always send things to the right address. That was the trouble here.
    Mr. Low: They sent them to the right hon. Gentleman.

    Brazil (British Mission)
    Sir Patrick Hannonasked the President of the Board of Trade the object of the Mission which he proposes to send to Brazil; what plans have been prepared to support the educational work of the Mission; who are the persons appointed; and if he will give details of the programme which the Mission will undertake.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The object of this Mission, which will be led by Sir John Wise, and will include representatives of the Treasury, Board of Trade and Bank of England, is to discuss financial and economic matters of mutual interest to the United Kingdom and Brazil, including any difficulties that are at present hampering trade in both directions. The details of the Mission's programme will be a matter for discussion and agreement with the Brazilian authorities when the Mission arrives. As regards the second part of the Question, I am not quite sure what the hon. Member has in mind, but it is part of the normal functions of the Commercial Department of His Majesty's Embassy at Rio de Janeiro—with the support of the Export Promotion Department of the Board of Trade—to draw attention to the advantages of Anglo-Brazilian trade, and in particular the merits of British goods and services.
    Sir. P. Hannon: Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear to the House that all the diplomatic influence that can be brought to bear will be given in support of this Mission by the Commercial Attaché?
    Mr. Wilson: This Mission will have the full support of all the diplomatic representatives, and we hope it will succeed in removing most of the difficulties which our exporters encounter today.

    Natural Rubber Stocks (Disposal)
    Sir P. Hannonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the result of negotiations between Britain and the United States for the disposal of the United Kingdom stock of natural rubber; what is the volume stock which is being negotiated for sale; what was the price of the stock acquired by bulk purchase; and if a disposal price has been arranged.
    Mr. H. Wilson: In response to a request from the United States Government, I have recently furnished details of the stocks held by His Majesty's Government, together with the prices at which these stocks have been on offer for some time past. These prices are based on 1s. 3 3/16d. per pound ex store for No. 1 sheet, and roughly represents the overall cost. I have also given some indication of the amounts which might be released for the United States Government stockpile. There have been no further developments.
    Sir P. Hannon: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that in any negotiations which may take place in matters of this kind the interests of this country are always protected?
    Mr. Wilson: In these negotiations we have very much in mind the interests, not only of this country, but also very particularly of the producers in Malaya, and the maintenance of a reasonable price for this commodity.
    Mr. Walter Fletcher: Is it not true that two other Ministries are concerned in these negotiations; that they are consulting different people in the trade; and in order to avoid a repetition of what happened at Geneva would it not be better to consult officially the Rubber Study Group set up for this purpose?
    Mr. Wilson: The Departments are working together very closely, and there has been no difficulty in the matter to which the hon. Member refers. As far as I know, the Rubber Study Group are not meeting for some time, so it would not be possible for them to discuss it.
    Mr. Fletcher: Would not their advice be useful on this important occasion; is it not true that the Colonial Office representative did give the Press information which was not accurate; and how can negotiations be carried on by three Ministries who are not working together in the matter?

    Sales Organisation (Foreign Countries)
    Sir P. Hannonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will inform the House of any emergency measures adopted to stimulate sales organisation in the United States, the Argentine and Canada, following his plea to British manufacturers to display the utmost vigour in meeting competition in those markets; and if the Commercial Secretariats and Consular Services are being strengthened with this object in view.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The Commercial Diplomatic and Consular Services in the United States and Argentina, and the Trade Commissioner Service in Canada, have all been strengthened in the last two years, and these three countries were specially visited last year to consider on the spot what further strengthening was necessary. A number of additional posts are being provided. My Department is constantly advising manufacturers as to the best methods of organising their export trade to these countries, and our representatives abroad are giving every possible assistance to visiting businessmen. There have also been a number of visits to each of these countries by delegations representative of particular industries w wished to study local conditions at first hand.
    Sir P. Hannon: Will the Board of Trade constantly keep in mind that, while production is of first importance in this country, in countries abroad the selling side is equally important?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, we have that very much in mind.

    Company Accounts
    Mr. Toucheasked the President of the Board of Trade the date on which the provisions of the Companies Act, 1947, relating to accounts are to be brought into force; and whether they will apply to all accounts published after that date or to accounts made up for periods ending after that date.
    Mr. H. Wilson: As I informed my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce) on 27th November, the provisions of the Companies Act, 1947, relating to accounts will take effect from 1st July next, and will consequently apply to all accounts required to be laid before a company in general meeting on or after that date.

    Soda Ash
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is a serious deficiency of soda ash, which is an essential component in the manufacture of glass; and what steps are being taken to rectify the position.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am aware that there is a shortage of soda ash which is a basic material, not only in glass manufacture but in a wide range of other industries. Existing capacity for manufacturing soda ash is being worked to the maximum extent, and further increases can come only with the completion of new capacity which I am doing my best to expedite. Certain additional quantities have recently been made available for glass.
    Mr. Granville Sharp: In view of the recent statement made by my right hon. Friend at a Press conference, to the effect that he proposes exporting soda ash, will he assure the House that he does not propose to do so until the needs of the export trades, including the wool textile trade as well as the glass trade, are fully met?
    Mr. Wilson: No, Sir. I cannot give that assurance because soda ash is one of the most important commodities which comes up for discussion in bilateral negotiations, and in certain countries a small quantity of soda ash might swing the whole trend of the negotiations. However, we keep very much in mind the needs of the export industries, and have made allocations as generously as we can to those particularly in need.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman turning his attention to increasing the output from the Magadi Lake in East Africa, where there are enormous natural deposits?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, we have that source of supply very much in mind, as well as sources in this country.

    Development Councils
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the President of the Board of Trade when it is proposed to set up development councils for the woollen and worsted, pottery and hosiery industries.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Discussions with these industries are taking place at present. I cannot yet say how soon I shall be able to make public my proposals.
    Mr. Scott-Elliot: Will the right hon. Gentleman say that he regards this as a matter of real urgency in the interests of producing a greater degree of efficiency in these industries?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, I regard it as a matter of very great urgency, and have personally been having conversations with most of the industries concerned. I do not think it is any secret that we have run into fairly strong opposition from certain employers' organisations. I should like to get on with it as quickly as possible, although I should prefer to get on with it by agreement, perhaps more slowly, than by forcing the issue.
    Mr. A. Edward Davies: Will the Minister give an assurance that there will be no undue delay in bringing development councils into being, despite the difficulties he is meeting?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir, we shall certainly do so with no undue delay.
    Dr. Barnett Stross: Does my right hon. Friend accept the principle of the desirability of affording executive powers to these development councils in each of the industries?
    Mr. Wilson: The powers and functions of development councils were laid down quite clearly in the relevant Act passed last Session. I think all the industries know exactly what are the powers and functions.
    Mr. M. F. Titterington: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking steps to secure the considered opinion of the organisations representative of employers and employees in all the industries to which the Question refers, irrespective of the working party report which has been issued?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. In each case I personally have met organisations from both sides of the industry.

    Cigarettes and Tobacco, Leicester (Distribution)
    Mr. Bowdenasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take steps to see that adequate supplies of cigarettes and tobacco are allocated to the canteens and local shopkeepers to meet the needs of the men employed at the Freemans Meadows, Leicester, in the erection of additional electrical generating plant.
    Mr. H. Wilson: There is no statutory control over the distribution of cigarettes and tobacco, but I understand that the manufacturers are prepared, when necessary, to provide additional supplies to meet needs resulting from temporary increases in employment. Local shopkeepers and canteen operators should make direct application to them for such supplies.

    Priority Dockets
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will extend the issue of priority dockets and units to people who voluntarily or by compulsory billeting order received evacuees into their homes during the war years.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No, Sir. The suggestion has often been made but has been invariably rejected. I do not think that at this late date it can be entertained.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that neither the compensation paid nor the amount of units and dockets issued is anything like adequate to make up the wear and tear on household furnishings?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. That point was made during the war, and it was not then considered possible to do anything to deal with it. To do so now would create a great degree of unfairness in making special concessions in detail.

    Knitting Wool
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is an acute shortage of knitting wool; and what steps are being taken to remedy this.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Although supplies of hand-knitting yarn are still rather short, deliveries to the home market in 1947 were 7 per cent. greater than in 1946. I hope that it will be possible to maintain supplies at or about this level, but it will be difficult to secure further improvement for the time being, since hand-knitting yarn is a very valuable export and any increase of production must be reserved for that purpose.
    Mr. Scott-Elliot: Is the Minister aware that hand-knitting wool is more than "rather short," and that good quality is practically unobtainable?

    Gift Food Parcels
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the President of the Board of Trade if the Canadian employees of Hield Brothers, Ontario Factory, have subscribed for and packed tinned soup, meat, vegetables, fruit and biscuits, etc., to provide a Christmas dinner for the 1,400 employees of Hield Brothers, Bradford Factory; that his Department have refused to permit this firm to receive this gift, but have suggested that the food should be unpacked, sent in parcels addressed to individuals and re-pooled on arrival; and if he will reconsider this unnecessary dilatory procedure.
    Mr. H. Wilson: After consultation with the Ministry of Food Messrs. Hield Bros., were advised that it is contrary to the policy of His Majesty's Government to allow firms or organisations in this country to receive gifts of food in bulk for distribution amongst their members or employees. In collaboration with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food I am, however, looking into this case and into the general question of licensing in relation to gift food parcels.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that sending food in bulk saves considerable labour and is easier for distribution?
    Mr. Wilson: There are difficulties about food coming in large quantities off the ration, as it were. I have said I am not altogether happy about the situation, and I will go into it with my right hon. Friend.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the President of the Board of Trade if it took from 21st August to 23rd December to complete the forms and procedure and answer all the questions of his Department before a gift of 168 lb. of dates from Teheran, which were to have been distributed between the employees of six textile factories in the West Riding of Yorkshire, could be cleared, and that, when all the requirements had been satisfied, the dates were rotten; and if he will take steps to simplify the procedure in order that wholesome gifts of food may be enjoyed.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No application for an import licence was made until the 27th October, although the dates arrived in this country on 21st July. Gift parcels to individuals are limited to 22 lb. gross.
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    Normally, bulk imports to firms for distribution to staff are not allowed. As I have already explained, however, I am looking into the whole question of licensing of gift food parcels in collaboration with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Will the Minister look into this case again? I can provide him with correspondence with his Department dating back to last August. Would he take note of the fact that the generous customer of this firm in Teheran who sent these dates has been paying for their storage, and also for watching the dates until they were found to be bad in December?
    Mr. Wilson: I should be glad to look at any correspondence the hon. and gallant Member cares to send me. I have said we are looking at the general case.
    Major Tufton Beamish: What compensation is being paid to those who should have received the parcels?
    Mr. Wilson: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will put down a Question.

    Garden Seeds (Import Licence)
    Mr. Osborneasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will issue an import licence immediately for a small parcel of garden seeds sent from Rochester, U.S.A., by a sister to Mr. T. L. Ground, Park House, Louth, Lincolnshire, for which he applied on 14th December and again on 9th January without receiving any reply; and whether he will state the reason for delay in dealing with correspondence.
    Mr. H. Wilson: A licence has now been issued. The hon. Member has been given full details in the reply to his letter of 20th January.
    Mr. Osborne: Will the Minister see that we get quicker service from his Department, and that our constituents do not have to wait for this service until we put down a Question?
    Mr. Wilson: I am anxious to see if we can speed up the service in these matters.
    Mr. Butcher: Why does the Department take so long to deal with all its correspondence?
    Mr. Wilson: I do not accept that imputation in the slightest, and certainly not as regards these cases.

    Olympic Games (Overseas Visitors)
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a full statement with regard to the plans which have been made for accommodating foreign visitors who come to this country to attend the Olympic Games.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Arrangements to facilitate the provision of all types of accommodation for overseas visitors to the Olympic Games this year have been undertaken by the British Tourist and Holidays Board. An Olympic Games Accommodation (Overseas Visitors) Bureau has been established, and has now begun its work. This Bureau is operated, without profit, on behalf of the British Tourist and Holidays Board by the Creative Tourist Agents' Conference, and is located at 10, Mayfair Place, W.1. Its activities are supervised by a special committee under the chairmanship of one of the members of the British Tourist and Holidays Board, and is representative of the Organising Committee of the XIVth Olympiad, the Travel Agents and the Hotels Associations.

    Window Frames and Doors (Export)
    Mr. Hardyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that many industries are desirous of assisting his export drive; and when he proposes to give facilities to Messrs. J. Wheedon and Sons, Salford, to export window frames and doors (softwood) which are so urgently required by other countries.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Yes, Sir. Arrangements have now been made for releasing timber for the manufacture for export of softwood window frames and doors, and manufacturers, including Messrs. J. Wheeldon and Sons, were informed of this on 21st January.

    Oriental Tobacco
    Mr. M. Philips Priceasked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage of Turkish or East Mediterranean tobacco is being used in tobacco blends in this country.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Turkish and East Mediterranean tobacco is at present being used in manufacture in this country at the rate of about 5 million lb. per annum. This represents approximately 2½ per cent. of our total tobacco usage for home consumption. I cannot say what percentage is used in any particular blend.
    Mr. Philips Price: Can the President of the Board of Trade say whether there is any likelihood of that percentage being increased, and whether there is sufficient blending machinery available to make an increase possible?
    Mr. Wilson: I am advised that the real difficulty is a technical one, arising from the differing moisture absorption rates of different tobaccos, which limits the extent to which Oriental tobacco can be blended with Virginian tobacco.
    Mr. Molson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this difficulty arises out of certain Customs regulations going back nearly 100 years? Will he consider the possibility of amending these regulations to enable Oriental tobacco to be used?
    Mr. Wilson: I should be prepared to look at anything like that, but I am advised that at the moment the difficulty is a technical one. I do not think we should be prepared to make any change in the adulteration laws.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Is it not a fact that in the United States blends contain a much higher percentage of Oriental tobacco and are regularly marketed, which seems to indicate that they have overcome the technical difficulties? Is my right hon. Friend aware that if it is a choice between an inadequate supply of Virginian cigarettes, or an increased supply of blended cigarettes, the public would greatly prefer the latter?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. But the American cigarettes contain a large proportion of miscellaneous commodities, including apple-peel, glycerine, honey and various other things in short supply in this country, which on grounds of our adulteration laws, we should not choose to see included in our cigarettes.
    Mr. Beechman: If tobacco is in such short supply, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is quite possible to grow Oriental tobacco in this country?

    Imported Pit-Props (Price)
    Mr. Philips Priceasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that pit-props from abroad are being paid for at a higher price than home-grown pit-props; and what is the reason for this.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Yes, Sir. It is estimated that on the average the cost of imported pit-props is about 50 per cent. more than corresponding home-grown mining-timber, quality for quality. Prices of homegrown timber are controlled at a level which is intended to give the landowner and timber merchant a reasonable return, while prices of imported timber are governed by other considerations.
    Mr. Philips Price: Is there any reason why there should be this difference between imported and home-grown prices? Surely the quality is the same?
    Mr. Wilson: The prices we have to pay for imported timber are determined by the world market. There is inflation of world prices for timber today, and there is no reason why our own timber merchants should cash in.
    Mr. Vane: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present controlled price of timber for pit props does not meet the cost of preparation, and that if the price schedule were reviewed objectively, it would be found possible greatly to increase the supply of home-grown pit props without putting any undeserved money into the pockets of the landowners or of the timber merchants, as well as at the same time effecting a saving in dollars?
    Mr. Wilson: No, Sir, I am not aware of that. The growing prices were increased by 25 per cent. last year, and a corresponding increase was made in the price of timber. I have every reason to believe that it does cover the cost.
    Mr. Vane: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the 25 per cent. is not sufficient, particularly since the cost of labour, which is the main cost, has risen approximately by 100 per cent.? Is he further aware that all this is set out in an admirable paper which was brought out recently, written by the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Scott-Elliot), a copy of which has been sent to him?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir.

    Newspapers (New Publications)
    Sir Peter Macdonaldasked the President of the Board of Trade whether a decision has now been reached on the number of licences to be granted for the new chain of newspapers to be published by the Labour Party; and what considerations led to a decision to grant the licence in this connection to the "South-West Herald."
    Mr. H. Wilson: No licences have been granted authorising the publication of the "South-West Herald," or of any newspaper by the Labour Party. Any person may, however, publish without licence a new newspaper or periodical, provided it uses not more than 8 cwts. in a four months' period.
    Sir P. Macdonald: In view of the fact that most of the national papers of this country have been starved of newsprint for a long time, what justification is there for allowing new newspapers to be started at the present time?
    Mr. Wilson: I was not aware that hon. Members opposite wanted me to operate a newspaper censorship. It has been the practice throughout the war, and for some time since, to allow small projects taking a small quantity of paper to go on.
    Sir. P. Macdonald: Would the right hon. Gentleman apply that to other trades in the country which are not allowed to start up unless they operated before the war?
    Mr. Wilson: That is another question.
    Mr. Marlowe: Would not the right hon. Gentleman be well advised to ensure an adequate newsprint supply for Socialist literature in Camlachie?

    Pottery Industry (Lithographic Transfers)
    Dr. Barnett Strossasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the shortage of lithographic prints is adversely affecting the pottery industry; and what action he is taking to increase the supply.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am aware of the shortage of lithographic transfers, the production of which is highly specialised, and is limited primarily by the shortage of skilled operatives. I am in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service on possible means of meeting this difficulty. I understand,

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    however, that recent developments in the process of production of lithographic plates should shortly lead to a substantial increase in the output of transfer prints.
    Dr. Stross: While I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer and the hope it gives for increasing the supply, may I ask is he aware that the inability to reproduce and replace the orders which have been executed, tends to give the industry a bad reputation abroad? Is he further aware that in 1947 its export value was 350 per cent. of the 1938 value, and that it could be better this year if we could have this help?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. In spite of the very remarkable performance in exports in 1947, it is a fact that we still have not made up for the loss of prewar imports from Germany. Steps are being taken which ought to improve the position.

    Cinema Newsreels (Length)
    Mr. Keelingasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider permitting an extension of the maximum length of newsreels in cases where this length is insufficient for important official announcements in the public interest.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Longer newsreels could only be permitted at the cost of forgoing valuable exports of unexposed photographic film. I am, however, looking into the arguments for permitting somewhat longer reels, and I hope very shortly to reach a decision.
    Mr. Keeling: During his consideration, with the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that during the talk on basic petrol by the Minister of Fuel and Power, now included in the newsreels, there is so much interruption by laughter that if it is to be of any use at all the talk ought to be lengthened by several minutes to allow time for the interruptions to subside?
    Mr. Wilson: In looking into this matter, I will bear in mind all relevant considerations.
    Mr. Low: Is it not a fact that this news talk was immediately preceded by a feature called "Take a Tub"?

    Trade Facilities, China
    Mr. Piratinasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware
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    that British manufacturers are desirous of doing trade with the liberated areas of China; and what steps he will take to facilitate such economic possibilities.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am aware that British manufacturers are desirous of trading with all parts of China, including those areas which were occupied by the Japanese and are now liberated from them. The customary facilities for British traders are available within the framework of our general export policy, but if the hon. Member has any particular difficulty in mind which might call for special steps to be taken, perhaps he will let me know.
    Mr. Piratin: I will take advantage of that and get into touch with my right hon. Friend. Do the customary facilities to which the Minister refers apply to the liberated areas or only to the Chunking Government, which has no control over the liberated areas?
    Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case that British manufacturers or traders would have to get consent from America before they could deal with the liberated areas of China?
    Hon. Members: No.
    Mr. Gallacher: Yes.
    Major Beamish: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, since he has answered this Question, what he understands by the words "liberated areas of China"? Which parts of China are they?
    Mr. Wilson: To avoid causing any difficulties, since the phrase has already been used by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin), I would prefer to have notice of that question.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Do the words "liberated areas" cover the reoccupied areas now under Communist control?

    Tube Paper (Manufacture)
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the President of the Board of Trade, what action he is taking to promote the increased manufacture of Caste 48 MG Tube paper, urgently required for the manufacture of paper bobbins and tubes.
    Mr. H. Wilson: In the past eight months, the supply of paper for the production of paper bobbins and tubes has been increased by 30 per cent. which it

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    is estimated should be adequate to meet essential home requirements. I shall be glad to investigate any case in which a user of bobbins is unable to obtain the necessary supplies.
    Mr. Sharp: Is my right hon. Friend aware—I have sent him this information—that although there has been this increased allocation of paper for the production of paper tubes, there is still a great shortage, and, as a result, exports of yarn are being held up?
    Mr. Wilson: The paper allocated for this purpose in the current period is 28 per cent. more than in the previous period. With reference to the case which my hon. Friend sent to me, my information is that because of newcomers to the industry existing firms are not working at anything like full capacity at the present time.
    Mr. Sharp: I am now speaking about the yarn manufacturers, who cannot get the paper tubes which they require in order to export yarn.
    Mr. Wilson: There is no reason why any yarn manufacturer should not be getting all that is required.

    Mending Wool
    Mr. Hurdasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the continued scarcity of mending wool and when the promised extra supplies will be on sale.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) on 16th December last.
    Mr. Hurd: Is the Minister aware that the present supply is still quite inadequate, and that for the sake of decency he must allow our wives to have more mending wool, so that they can keep our clothes properly darned?

    Token Imports
    Mr. Lowasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the total amount of each foreign currency expended on token imports during 1947; and whether he will set out the amount paid for each category of imports separately.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The information for which the hon. Member asks is not
    1186
    readily available and would take some time to compile. If he will let me know in what particular commodities he is interested I will arrange for the information to be obtained.
    Mr. Low: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how many dollars have been expended, if he cannot give the information for all these foreign countries?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, if the hon. Member will put a Question down.

    Artificial Teeth (Imports)
    Mr. Lowasked the President of the Board of Trade in what year the value of artificial teeth imported from the United States into the U.K. amounted to 2½ million dollars, so as to justify the 1947 Token Imports.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The value of import licences for artificial teeth from the United States under the Token Import Scheme in 1947 amounted to £52,000, which represents less than 20 per cent. of the average imports from the United States of America for the years 1936, 1937 and 1938.
    Mr. Low: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean by that that the whole excess of over £52,000 was wholly re-exported or was it used in some other way?
    Mr. Wilson: It was entirely re-exports, and the figure of imports for this country is less than 20 per cent.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the Minister aware that there is a flourishing artificial teeth trade in Cyprus, and will he support the British industry in preference to the American?

    Distribution Census (Opposition)
    Mr. Collinsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that organised opposition to the Pilot Census of Distribution is being encountered in some of the towns chosen for the pilot census; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I am aware that in certain towns covered by this census, retailers and others are being advised to withhold co-operation with the Government in this experiment. While

    1187
    the census is voluntary, it is very regrettable that traders should be discouraged in this way from completing their returns, and I can only suppose that those who are responsible for this opposition are under the impression that by limiting the success of the pilot census they will bring about the postponement or even abandonment of the National Census. This is certainly not the case. The Statistics of Trade Act passed last year made provision for a national census and the plans for this, which will be compulsory, will go forward whatever the response may be to the pilot census. The most the campaign can succeed in doing is to prevent us from framing the questions in the National Census in the form most convenient to traders.
    I would also like to repeat the reassurance of my predecessor that any information given in individual returns received by the Census of Distribution Office will not be seen by anyone outside that office, nor will it be communicated to any other Government Department or used in any way other than to arrive at the census totals. In particular, it will not be used for such matters as Income Tax, rationing, price control or allocation of supplies. I can give the same assurance about confidential treatment of returns at the coming national census. Traders need, therefore, have no hesitation in completing their census forms, and I hope that the majority of them will do so as fully as they can and will send them in as soon as possible.
    Mr. Collins: Can my right hon. Friend give some form of guarantee that will remove any fears retailers may have that the returns from the pilot census may be used to nationalise the retail trade and will he make it perfectly clear that the proper preparation of the National census forms will be quite impossible unless we can get correct information in the pilot census?
    Mr. Wilson: The retail distributors have had already the fullest assurance on that point. The purpose of the pilot census is to enable us to prepare the forms which will give us the information required with the least possible trouble to retailers when we take the compulsory census.
    Sir P. Hannon: Can the Minister say whether any evidence has come to the
    1188
    Board of Trade that can be relied on that this organised opposition referred to in the Question exists?
    Mr. Wilson: There is plenty of evidence on that point. It is a fact that a number of quite high-powered representatives of the National Chamber of Trade are going round the country stirring up opposition to this voluntary census. When I met members of the Executive this week and asked them to invite their members to stop doing this, they said that they would not take any steps in the matter.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Can the Minister say what advice or assistance is available to retailers to enable them to complete this extensive and complicated schedule?
    Mr. Wilson: We have a number of information bureaux in various parts of the country who will help them, and also, of course, the National Chamber of Trade could provide services for that purpose.
    Mr. Erroll: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that we are not allowed to protest nowadays when we want to?
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the Minister surprised that retail traders are suspicious of the intentions of the Government?
    Mr. Wilson: The retail distributors have done so well under this Government that I am surprised, and if the hon. Gentleman will turn up the answer which I gave a week ago on the number of bankruptcies in the retail trade while we have been in power, compared with the number when the party opposite were in power, he will see why.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: In order to put the matter in its right perspective, and as the Minister has given an indication of what he said to the National Chamber of Trade, would it not be fair for him to put to the House the case which that body put to him, so that we can judge?
    Mr. Wilson: The only statement which they made of any relevance was that they were not behind any organised national campaign, and that the Executive of that body has not actively carried out this campaign. I fully accept that. The other arguments which they put were arguments which apply to the compulsory census of distribution scheduled for 1950, and agreed to by this House.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: Is not the right hon. Gentleman of opinion that today's overwhehning anti-Conservative vote at Camlachie was a clear and appropriate expression of the right to protest?

    Wire Fireguards
    Miss Baconasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that owing to the cut in the allocation of wire, many people are experiencing great difficulty in obtaining fireguards; and if he proposes to take any action to remedy this.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Over 500,000 wire fireguards were manufactured for domestic use during 1947 and I believe that this satisfied most of the demand. I would assure my hon. Friend that in allocating the restricted amounts of wire that are available the importance of adequate supplies of fireguards particularly for the protection of young children will not be overlooked.
    Miss Bacon: Will my right hon. Friend look carefully into the distribution of fireguards, because from letters I have received from infant welfare associations it appears that there are difficulties in obtaining them in some areas.
    Mr. Wilson: I have looked into this question myself, and I have seen a fair number of fireguards available in the shops. In the particular area which my hon. Friend has in mind there may be a local shortage, and if she will let me have particulars of it I will look into it.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Will there also be some coal to guard?
    Mr. Wilson: The hon. and gallant Gentleman seems to be a little behind the times.

    Cotton Industry
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent demands for special qualities of raw cotton have been met in the last six months.
    Mr. H. Wilson: To the fullest extent possible, having regard to currency restrictions.
    Mr. W. Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade how many amalgamations in the cotton industry have
    1190
    taken place in 1947 under plans offering inducements for such amalgamations offered by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. H. Wilson: During 1947, 11 groups of spinning mills were accepted for registration under the Modernisation Subsidy Scheme. The majority of these groups were in existence prior to 1947 but some of them added extra mills during the year.
    Mr. Fletcher: Does the President of the Board of Trade agree that this very small number shows the necessity of going into the whole question again and altering the basis considerably?
    Mr. Wilson: I certainly cannot say that I am satisfied with the rate of progress so far achieved.
    Mr. W. Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade in what way the £1,500,000 subsidy to cotton spinning industry is administered; whether it is distributed over the industry as a whole or only to selected sections of the industry.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The figure of £1½ million to which the hon. Member refers is the provision made in the Board of Trade Votes for 1947–8 for claims which might arise this year as a result of the Government's offer of financial assistance for the modernisation of grouped cotton spinning mills. The subsidy scheme and the methods of administering it were described in the reply to a Question by the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for South Kensington (Mr. Law) on 30th April, 1947.

    Paint Manufacture (Oil)
    Mr. Marplesasked the President of the Board of Trade at what price per ton his Department sold their stocks of Tung Oil to paint manufacturers in December; at what price it was available on the free market; and for how long he proposes to use compulsion to insist that the paint trade must buy Government stocks at higher prices than ruling market prices.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Tung Oil was sold by the Board of Trade during December at L250 a ton ex store. The free market price was approximately £200 per ton cost and freight. The intention is to continue to charge £250 a ton for Government stocks until these are liquidated.
    Mr. Marples: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it just and equitable that manufacturers should be forced to pay to the Government prices higher than the ruling market prices because of their bad buying, and how is it possible for them to compete in the export drive if they are forced to pay higher than the ruling world prices for their raw material?
    Mr. Wilson: There is no question of bad buying in this case. At a time of acute shortage manufacturers pressed the Government to make these purchases. The purchases were made by the Government at the world ruling price, which any private buyer would have had to pay, and it does not seem right that in working the stocks off the ratepayer should be subsidising manufacturers.

    Furnishing Materials (Coupons)
    Mrs. Middletonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the concern existing among housewives, in that only well-to-do persons can buy uncouponed furnishing materials, and of the fact that coupons for household linen constitute a heavy drain upon housewives' clothing coupons, he will make provision for an allocation of household coupons to each individual in the next rationing year and bring all furnishing materials within the rationing system.
    Mr. H. Wilson: As I told my hon. Friend, the Member for Kirkdale (Mr. Keenan), on 22nd January, I will again examine the question of curtains. The suggestion of issuing special coupons for curtain materials and household linen would have no effect on supplies and I think that they are more reasonably distributed against the surrender of the ordinary clothing coupon.
    Mrs. Middleton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in most households it is the housewife who has to supply the coupons for these articles and that it would be much fairer to the community if the coupons for this purpose were scattered throughout all the rations books of the family?
    Mr. Wilson: I know that in many households it is the housewife, but in very many others it is not. The suggestion would not increase the amount available,
    1192
    but it is a question which might be considered as and when supplies begin to arrive.
    Mr. Keeling: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 52 Questions have been addressed to him today, and can he hold out any hope that the pressure of his Department on the citizen will be reduced?

  EMPLOYMENT

    Registration
    Mr. Anthony Nuttingasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the confusion which is being caused by the section of his publication on the Registration for Employment Order dealing with street traders who are ex-Service men on release leave; and whether he will take steps to clarify the position.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): No, Sir, but if the hon. Member would write to me and explain the nature of the difficulty, I would look into the matter.
    Mr. Nutting: Is the Minister aware that in this publication, in answer to one question, "Must every street trader register?", among the exceptions given are, "Ex-Service men and women on leave with full pay"; and in answer to the next question, "Supposing I took up street trading during my release leave?", it states, "You will have to register"? Which is the case?
    Mr. Isaacs: If the hon. Gentleman in his Question had given me any idea of what was in his mind I would have made an effort to answer it, but I cannot do so off hand.
    Mr. Nuttingasked the Minister of Labour whether he will amend the regulations under the Registration for Employment Order, 1947, to provide that registration shall not apply to persons looking after sick relatives at any time since 17th November, 1947.
    Mr. Isaacs: No, Sir, but I would remind the hon. Member that registration does not necessarily mean transfer to employment, and that the personal circumstances of each registrant will be carefully and sympathetically considered before employment is offered.

    Skegness
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Labour what is the estimated total of men and women available for employment in Skegness, Lincolnshire, how many were unemployed at the latest known date; and how many of these were members of the building or civil engineering trades.
    Mr. Isaacs: The total numbers of insured persons in the area of the Skegness Employment Exchange at July, 1947, were approximately 5,470 males and 3,000 females. The numbers of such persons registered at the Skegness Employment Exchange as unemployed at 12th January were 303 males and 272 females, including 49 males from the building industry and 6 from the civil engineering industry.
    Commander Maitland: In view of the large percentage of building trade workers who were out of work at that time, would the right lion. Gentleman consider consulting with his colleagues, the Minister of Health and the Minister of Works, to see whether during periods such as this, more licences for repairs might not be granted because they do not require the use of material but largely use labour?
    Mr. Isaacs: Whilst not accepting this as an unusually high percentage in the circumstances, I will certainly do as the hon. and gallant Gentleman requests.

    European Volunteer Workers, Guiseley (Overtime)
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the European Volunteer Workers working at Carter and Parker, Limited, Yarn Manufacturers, Guiseley, live in a hostel and, having no household duties to perform in the evenings, have requested to be permitted to work additional overtime, but have been informed by the Factory Inspector that they cannot be permitted to do extra work; and, as this decision has deprived this country of knitting wools and yarn for export, if he will reconsider it.
    Mr. Isaacs: This is one of the factories at which I have authorised an evening shift of part-time women to help in increasing output. I understand the firm recently sounded a factory inspector as to whether they could employ some women
    1194
    in accordance with the day-shift scheme and in the evening shift as well; but this would have meant allowing their employment for 13 working hours with a night interval of only 9½ hours and I do not think this is justified. The firm were, however, advised as to the overtime permissable for day-shift workers under the Factories Act.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: These work-people have asked to work longer hours, and is this not an example of where restricted practices by the Minister's Department are stopping production?
    Mr. Isaacs: Not in the least. If it is a fact that these people have asked to work these hours they should be protected from such unreasonably long hours.

    Building Trade Operatives
    Mr. Dumpletonasked the Minister of Labour if he will state, by regions, the numbers of building trade operatives registered as unemployed at the most recent convenient date.
    Mr. Isaacs: As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    The numbers of insured males aged 14 and under 65 years in the building industry registered as unemployed at 8th December, 1947, in each region were as shown below:

    Region

    Number

    London and South Eastern

    …

    5,385

    Eastern

    …

    1,030

    Southern

    …

    718

    South Western

    …

    763

    Midland

    …

    561

    North Midland

    …

    513

    East and West Ridings

    …

    1,055

    North Western

    …

    3,607

    Northern

    …

    2,396

    Scotland

    …

    3,410

    Wales

    …

    2,011

    Great Britain

    …

    21,449

    Poles (Engineering Industry)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Labour what arrangements have now been made so as to enable engineering firms short of skilled and semi-skilled labour to employ Poles.
    Mr. Isaacs: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave to the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Mr. G. Thomas) on 22nd January.
    Mr. Stokes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the answer he gave was not very clear as to the exact procedure and could he give a little more direction to those who have to implement the policy it outlined?
    Mr. Isaacs: If the House will permit me I will refer to that aspect of the question. The instruction states that energetic steps have to be taken by the Ministry to find suitable available British labour. If British labour is not available and the employer wants labour we inform him that other labour is available, but he himself must make contact with the local branch of the union. If, having done that, he comes back to us and says that he wants Polish labour we will not stop him.
    Mr. Stokes: What happens if the union concerned do not agree? Does the employment collapse or does the employer proceed anyway?
    Mr. Isaacs: If the employer was the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) I could not imagine him collapsing. The point is that the employer must take some share of the responsibility. We ask him to contact the trade union branch and if he comes back and says he has done so we ask no questions. If he says he is proposing to take this labour we assume he has weighed up all the advantages and disadvantages before deciding to take it.

    DIRECTED MINEWORKERS (DEMOBILISATION BENEFITS)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Labour on what grounds boys compulsorily directed to the mines are not on demobilisation granted the 56 days' leave with pay, new clothes and 120 clothing coupons, which are granted to all men who are demobilised from the Armed Forces, since volunteering for the mines ranked equal in importance with service in the Armed Forces.
    Mr. Isaacs: The benefits referred to which are granted to men released in Class A from the Armed Forces were designed to help them to settle down again in civilian life after long periods of absence in the Services. The same considerations do not apply in the case of men who have remained in civilian life and men who have entered coalmining employment could not be granted special treatment in this respect.
    Mr. Osborne: Would the Minister agree that the Bevin boys, who are now suffering under a sense of grievance, did as important a job at the request of the Government as the men who served in the Armed Forces? Will he look at it again?
    Mr. Isaacs: I do not consider that their sense of grievance is any greater than that of those who remained in engineering, farm work and many other industries, and they cannot have special treatment.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Purchase Tax and Customs Duties (Waivers)
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlainasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what basis of authority the Customs and Excise have power to waive Purchase Tax and Customs Duties on goods arriving in this country from abroad, and in respect of what items such waivers have been granted during the past 12 months or other convenient period.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): The authority may be statutory, a direction by the Treasury, or the discretion of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise. As to the articles covered by the discretion it would be quite impracticable to give a list but my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is writing to my hon. Friend on this matter.
    Mr. Chamberlain: Does not my hon. Friend think that this is a very dangerous discretion, particularly as it was used quite recently for class discrimination?
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: Is not the right hon. Gentleman's Department getting a little tired of hearing these veiled insinuations against the Royal Family?
    Mr. Speaker: There was no insinuation against the Royal Family.

    Petrol Tax (Agricultural Tractors)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider removing, at an early date, the tax from petrol used in agricultural tractors, in view of the increasing number of petrol-driven tractors which are now coming on the market and the very heavy burden which the tax places on the farmer.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave on Tuesday to my hon. Friend the Member for South Salford (Mr. Hardy).
    Mr. De la Bère: Does not the Financial Secretary realise that the Government, while paying lip service to agriculture, are not helping it at all, and is it not tragic that nothing can be done in regard to this matter?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I think it is very obvious that the hon. Gentleman has not read the reply which my right hon. and learned Friend gave to the hon. Member for South Salford.
    Mr. De la Bère: This is scandalous, and I give notice that I will raise the matter at the earliest possible date.

    American Loan (Government Purchases)
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the disposal of sums received by His Majesty's Government from merchants of this country for goods purchased by His Majesty's Government from moneys made available to them under the American Loan.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate a statement of the accounting arrangements in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Colonel Crossthwaitc-Eyre: Will the Financial Secretary state whether these moneys are taken into current account and included in the Budget and are more than responsibile for what surplus is shown?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must be under considerable misapprehension. There is no secret about this. These figures are published every week in the Exchequer Return, and if he cares afterwards I will show him exactly where to find them.
    Following is the statement:
    Dollars made available under the American Loan are received into the Exchange Equalisation Account and this Account pays the sterling equivalent to the Exchequer. These sterling receipts are brought to account in the Exchequer Statement (published weekly) under the
    1198
    heading: "Money raised by creation of debt, Other debt—external."
    The dollars thus received by the Exchange Account are available for sale to importers of American goods whether traders or Government Departments (e.g. Ministry of Food) and any dollars made available to these importers are paid for in sterling (in the case of Government Departments from Votes of Parliament) to the Exchange Account. Proceeds of the sale of goods by Government Departments are brought to credit in the account of the Vote that pays for the goods.
    The net result of these transactions is that the sterling proceeds of all purchases made with dollars derived from the American Loan (whether the purchaser is a Government Department or a private trader) reduce Exchequer borrowings from other sources, i.e., external debt replaces internal debt.

    Note Issue
    Mr. Molsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make a statement on the Government's intentions with regard to making a new note issue and, in particular, on making compensation for the existing notes in circulation.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. William Paling) on 22nd January.
    Mr. Molson: Is the Financial Secretary aware that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, speaking at Stanley 10 days ago, said that at short notice it might be that a new issue of notes might be placed on the market and all old notes would then be worthless? In view of what the Financial Secretary has said today, will he make representations to the Parliamentary Secretary to inform himself of the policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer before he makes speeches in the country on financial matters?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: The hon. Gentleman really surprises me. He has been in this House for a considerable time and surely by now he knows the difference between a humorous threat—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—thrown off during a public speech and a considered statement on Government policy.
    Mr. Molson: Is the Financial Secretary aware that I was not present when the right hon. Gentleman spoke and that I

    1199
    did not know it was humorous. I was only able to read the facts as reported in the Press. I am very glad to have elicited this denial.

    ANGLO-RUSSIAN TRADE AGREEMENT
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the cost to this country for the year 1948 of implementing Article III B (1) and (2), respectively, of the Anglo-Russian Trade Agreement of 27th December, 1947.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): These will be normal commercial transactions and no loss is contemplated.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: Will the Economic Secretary to the Treasury bear in mind in his negotiations that the goods covered in that Article are the best dollar earners that we have, and will he see that he receives an adequate return for them from Soviet Russia?
    Mr. Jay: Certainly.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what favourable balance to this country stood on the account referred to in Article 5 of the Anglo-Soviet Agreement dated 16th August, 1941, 1st May and 31st July, 1947, respectively.
    Mr. Jay: I cannot give information about the state of a particular account with the Bank of England.
    Mr. Erroll: Why not?
    Mr. Jay: The hon. and gallant Member will realise that a banking account is a confidential matter between the banker and the depositor.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: If the Treasury agrees to freeze the amount for 14 years from the date of signature, surely this House is entitled to know what is being spent?
    Mr. Jay: This is a pure piece of machinery which arises out of the Agreement of 1941 concluded by the Coalition Government of that date.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: Then may I know to which Article of that Agreement the hon. Gentleman refers?
    Mr. Jay: It arises under Article 5 of the Agreement which the hon. and gallant Gentleman mentions in his Question.

    GOVERNMENT-OWNED VEHICLES (MARKING)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether in order to assist investigation into the proper use of petrol allowances he will arrange for all vehicles owned or operated by Government Departments to bear a conspicuous mark.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Government-owned vehicles already display on their windscreens either a G-licence or an exempt licence; the majority have other distinctive markings.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In view of the insignificant and inconspicuous nature of this mark from a distance and in view of the very large number of vehicles to be seen on the roads at the moment, would not a more conspicuous mark assist the police in the performance of a very difficult task imposed on them as a result of the policy of the Minister of Fuel and Power?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I think the markings are very well known to the police in most areas. If the hon. Gentleman is anxious that the Government should save as much petrol as possible, I should like to inform him and the House that every precaution is taken by logging all journeys to make sure that petrol is not used unnecessarily.
    Mr. Vane: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it would be of interest to the general public as well as the police to be able to see what proportion of vehicles now on the road are owned or operated by Government Departments? Has he considered putting a broad arrow on each of the front doors?

  FUEL AND POWER

    Supplementary Petrol Rations
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many applications have been received by the regional petroleum officers for E and S petrol coupons since August, 1947; and how many cases are still outstanding.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): I gave in reply to the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) on 22nd January, figures of the number of applications dealt with and on hand at the end of December. I propose to publish further figures for each calendar month as they become available.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his request to Members of Parliament to deal direct with the regional officer was most unsatisfactory? Does not he think it will be a good thing to scrap the whole business?
    Mr. Gaitskell: It was not a request of mine to hon. Members to deal with the regional petroleum officers but a suggestion to them that if they wished to do so I would raise no objection. If any hon. Member is dissatisfied with the treatment he has received in dealing direct with R.P.O.s, I hope he will communicate with me.
    Sir Wavell Wakefield: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I carried out his advice and I never received the courtesy of an acknowledgment?
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that as far as the Northern Region is concerned all letters have been dealt with most expeditiously?
    Mr. Maclay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not merely a question of whether one is satisfied with the treatment; it raises what is probably a constitutional issue or, if not constitutional, certainly an issue of considerable practical importance—whether one should go past the Minister?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I am a little surprised at the hon. Member. If he will look at the communication I made on the subject, he will see that it could not possibly raise a constitutional issue but was merely an attempt to ease the burden on hon. Members and on Whitehall at the same time.
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what was the total quantity of supplementary petrol units issued during November and December 1946; and the corresponding quantity issued during the same months of 1947.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Statistics are available and have been published for the four monthly period 1st September to 31st
    1202
    December. I have no separate figures for the months of December and November.

    Petrol Economy (Dollar Saving)
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how much of the estimated saving of £9,000,000 per annum in foreign exchange as the result of the reduction in the consumption of petrol can be attributed to the abolition of basic; and how much to other economies.
    Mr. Heathcoat Amoryasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the actual or estimated dollar saving to the latest convenient date resulting from the abolition of the basic petrol ration.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I would refer the hon. Members to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Philips Price) on 21st January.
    Mr. Erroll: Is it not a fact that the abolition of the basic ration accounts for little more than one-half of the total savings?
    Mr. Gaitskell: About four-fifths.
    Mr. Amory: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has made any allowance for the loss of foreign currency consequent on the abolition of the basic petrol ration? Does he not now agree that an equivalent saving could have been attained by alternative economy measures involving far less hardship, frustration and loss of time to the community, and much less wasted time on the part of the hard-pressed police?
    Mr. Gaitskell: The statistics to which I have referred related only to the direct saving; they did not take into account either indirect savings or indirect losses.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is not the whole thing a tragic blunder?
    Mr. Peter Roberts: Will the Minister say whether, in the figures he gave previously, the 10 per cent. overall cut for all petrol users was taken into account?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir.

    SCOTTISH BUSINESS (PROCEDURE)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. WILLIS:
    154. To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the steps he proposes to take to secure a greater measure of Scottish control over Scottish affairs.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Woodburn): With permission, I will make a statement in answer to Question No. 154.
    I can now report to the House of Commons the conclusions of the Government resulting from their consideration of the way by which Scottish Members may have more time for the discussion of Scottish business in the House, and by which greater opportunities can be given for the consideration of domestic affairs in Scotland.
    These conclusions are embodied in a White Paper which will be available in the Vote Office this afternoon, and the Motions to make the requisite changes in the Standing Orders will be on the Order Paper tomorrow.
    Mr. J. S. C. Reid: May we take it that there will be an early opportunity to debate the proposals in the White Paper? It might be as well to express any views about those or the new Standing Orders when we see them in print.
    Mr. Woodburn: That, of course, is a matter for the Leader of the House, but the alteration to Standing Orders must come before the House of Commons.
    Mr. Willis: Could my right hon. Friend say when he expects that these new arrangements will commence to operate?
    Mr. Woodburn: That depends on when the House passes them.

    NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (PLEBISCITE)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. TIFFANY:
    140. To ask the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the nature of the plebiscite in which doctors are being asked to participate, in regard to the National Health Service Act; and if he has any statement to make.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): With the permission of the House, I will reply to Question No. 140.
    I understand that each doctor has to sign his name on the voting paper, with his address and professional particulars, and that the Association conducting the ballot is itself engaged in a campaign to induce the doctor to vote one way. This
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    House may well feel that this procedure is a long way removed from the secret ballot and the workings of democracy as we know it in this country and that it is bound to cast doubt on the validity of the result.
    Mr. Somerville Hastings: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that all the doctors concerned have knowledge of what he has just told the House?
    Mr. Bevan: The doctors, of course, will be informed when they receive the plebiscite form itself, because there they will see that it is not a secret vote but an open ballot.
    Mr. Baird: As the doctors seem to be taking the law into their own hands in this matter, does not my right hon. Friend think that this House should have an opportunity of expressing its views on this attempted blackmail?
    Mr. Bevan: This is a question which ought properly to be addressed either to the Prime Minister or to the Leader of the House, because it involves procedure and giving an opportunity for debate. As far as I am concerned, the Government's case is so strong that I should welcome an opportunity of deploying it.
    Mr. Churchill: There is no compulsion, of course, on any medical man to take any notice of this paper unless he likes.
    Mr. Bevan: None at all, as I understand it but, of course, open votes of this description always give rise to the possibility of intimidation.
    Mr. Churchill: Intimidation?
    Mr. Bevan: It was because open votes of this sort were removed from our constitutional practice that the secret ballot was established. Fear of intimidation is the reason for the secret ballot.
    Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: Is that the reason why—
    Hon. Members: Order.
    Dr. Stross: In view of the great importance of this matter to everyone, may I ask the Leader of the House, in his presence, whether he will not now give us an early date so that we shall have an opportunity of debating the matter?
    Mr. Speaker: I must point out here that there must be responsibility of a

    1205
    Minister, and a Minister is not responsible for the form in which this ballot has gone out. Therefore, a debate is rather difficult on this aspect.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Why should signing a ballot form invalidate a vote? In the university elections a voter signs a ballot form. Any doctor, whether he is a member of the B.M.A. or not, and I myself am not, has no need to vote unless he wishes and, if he does not wish to sign his ballot form, he need not do so. Therefore I do not see that it makes any difference whether one signs it or not.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Is there not all the difference in the world between signing a ballot paper in a university election, where the university takes no part in the election and is indifferent to the result, and signing a ballot paper to be sent to an Association which has already taken sides, indicated a preference, and hopes for a result?
    Mr. Speaker: That would seem to be a little hypothetical. The point has been made, and I should think we had better leave it at that now.
    Mr. Gallacher: May I put a point to the Minister?
    Mr. Speaker: My decision was that we should carry on with the next business.
    Mr. Tiffany: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, may I point out that I put down this Question on the Order Paper and have had no opportunity of putting a supplementary question?
    Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman wishes to put a supplementary, seeing that he put the Question down, I am prepared to allow it.
    Mr. Tiffany: May I ask the Minister whether this form of taking a plebiscite is not reminiscent of prewar Germany, and should we not place the same value on the results of the election as we did upon those?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Will the Leader of the House please tell us the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday, 2nd February—Second Reading of the Industrial Assurance and Friendly Societies Bill; the Sutton's Hospital in Charterhouse Bill; and of the Animals Bill; and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Tuesday, 3rd February—Committee stage of the Cinematograph Films Bill.
Wednesday, 4th February—Conclusion of the Committee stage of the Cinematograph Films Bill.
Thursday, 5th February—Report and Third Reading of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Bill. Further progress will be made with the Post Office and Telegraph (Money) Bill; the Royal Marines Bill; and the Attempted Rape Bill; and there will be Consideration of the Motion to approve the Purchase Tax (Alteration of Rates) (No. 3) Order, 1947.
Friday, 6th February—Second Reading of the Army and Air Force (Women's Service) Bill and of the Police Pensions Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Further progress will be made with the Sutton's Hospital in Charterhouse Bill.
During the week it is hoped that there will be an opportunity to consider the Motions to approve the Leather (Charges) (No. 1) Order and the Foreign Service Order.
Mr. Eden: The right hon. Gentleman will recall that, shortly before the House met, important statements were made by Ministers on the subject of the petrol ration. I make no complaint about that, but I would like to know if we can have an early opportunity to discuss those statements, and I would like him to say whether he could assist us in the matter.
Mr. Morrison: But the House had a Debate—a fairly ample Debate—and a Division on the order. The House took a decision, and I cannot see the need for us to have a further Debate, unless it is taken on a Supply Day.
Mr. Eden: I ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind that since then two important statements have been made—very full statements. The House was

1207
not sitting, and therefore the statements were not made to the House, but they were on matters of great interest to the country, and it is desirable that we should have an opportunity to debate them. Perhaps that can be discussed through the usual channels.
Mr. Morrison: The statements were explanatory of the situation. If it is desired by the Opposition to have a Debate, a Supply Day can be arranged, and we would be happy to discuss it. But, as there was a Debate and a Division earlier, I do not think it right that Government time should be given for that purpose. If the Opposition will discuss having a Supply Day, we will arrange to do so.
Mr. Eden: Supply Days are some way off.
Mr. Morrison: No, we are under a new Standing Order.
Mr. Thomas Reid: In view of the Question, and the answer which we have just heard, and of the importance of the matter, will my right hon. Friend arrange a day for a discussion of the doctors' ballot at an early date?
Mr. Morrison: Mr. Speaker has indicated that there is possibly a question of Order about that matter. I think that if a Debate took place, it would probably have to be on a somewhat wider issue than the actual plebiscite which is being taken. It might cover the outstanding issues in dispute between my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health and the British Medical Association—
Colonel Stoddart-Scott: The negotiating committee.
Mr. Morrison: Whoever they may be, it is the same thing. If there is a feeling and a wish for a Debate here—and certainly there is considerable interest in the matter in the country—the Government would not be unsympathetic to taking steps with a view to a Debate as early as possible.
Sir W. Wakefield: Will the right hon. Gentleman say when an opportunity can be given to discuss the very grave losses to the taxpayers incurred in the operation of the nationalised civil airlines?
Mr. Morrison: I think that at a suitable time there should be a Debate on civil aviation, including that aspect of it, if it
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is the wish of the Opposition that that should be so. We shall have to have some discussion about how we are to handle these Debates. We shall have to strike some sort of understanding or bargain about them, and I would welcome it if discussions could be opened through the usual channels.
Mr. Eden: In reference to this coming week's Business, could the right hon. Gentleman assist the House by letting us know on what day we will consider the Motion to approve the Leather (Charges) (No. 1) Order, which I understand is of considerable importance? Perhaps Wednesday would be a suitable day?
Mr. Morrison: I gathered it might be considered a suitable day and, if convenient to the House, we propose to take it on Wednesday, after the Committee stage of the Cinematograph Films Bill.
Mr. Cecil Poole: Would not the Leader of the House agree that many of these questions on which debates are required now could be cleared up if he would concede to us a small measure of Private Members' time again?
Mr. Morrison: With great respect to my hon. Friend, I cannot see what that has to do with it. There is no guarantee whatever that any of these subjects would be chosen by a Private Member in Private Members' time, unless the Opposition Whips asked him to do so.
Mr. Maclay: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an indication of when the Bill to implement the Boundary Commissions' recommendations will be taken?
Mr. Morrison: The Representation of the People Bill is being presented today, and that will include recommendations in relation to the provisions of the Boundary Commissions' Report.
Mr. Gallacher: Will the Leader of the House discuss through Scottish channels a day for considering the proposals in the White Paper on Scottish Affairs, in view of the fact that according to rumour they are going to be totally inadequate.
Mr. Morrison: I am sorry to hear that from such an influential quarter. I understood from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland that he has reason to believe there was some degree of happiness about it. There will

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in any case have to be a Debate on the Standing Orders regarding the proposal that Bills may go to the Grand Committee right away and that some of the Estimates procedure might take place in Standing Committee. So far as the House is concerned, that is the more important point, but there are other proposals of an administrative character and I would be willing to have discussions through the usual channels. We shall have to debate the Standing Orders and see whether we can come to some arrangement to cover essential points which people may wish to have covered.
Mr. Hale: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this House has not had an adequate and sufficient opportunity of discussing the cotton industry and textile machinery? In view of the failure of the employers to adopt the amalgamation schemes, the limited use of the subsidy scheme, the report of the working party, the many outstanding Evershed reports, and the question raised as to overtime, and other matters in recent discussions, will he give an early opportunity for discussing our greatest export industry?
Mr. Morrison: This, of course, is a matter which can be dealt with on a Supply Day, if there were a wish to do so. I rather think, speaking from memory, that some opportunity may arise for discussion of such matters.

BILL PRESENTED
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL,
"to amend the law relating to parliamentary and local government elections and to corrupt and illegal practices; and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. Ede; supported by Mr. Herbert Morrison, Mr. Woodburn, Mr. Bevan, The Attorney-General, Mr. Thomas Fraser and Mr. Younger; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 41.]

GENEVA TARIFF AGREEMENT
Mr. Speaker: Before I call on the Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. Bottomley) to move his Motion, I wish to tell the House that I have considered the Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) and although it may put emphasis somewhat slightly on one aspect, I think it is so wide that the whole subject can be discussed at large after the Amendment has been moved. I propose, therefore, to let the discussion range over the whole sphere in addition to the Amendment, including also the Import Duties Agreement, which hon. Members may want to touch on also, at the same time.
3.49 p.m.
Mr. Bottomley (Secretary, Overseas Trade): I beg to move,
"That this House approves the action taken by His Majesty's Government at the Second Session of the Preparatory Committee of the United Nations Conference on Trade and Employment."
The Conference which took place last year at Geneva really had two spheres of work. A preparatory committee appointed by the Economic and Social Council was at this, its second, session working at the final draft of a charter to be submitted to a World Conference on Trade and Employment. At the same time the countries represented on the committee were taking advantage of the opportunity themselves to negotiate a General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. There is no need to recall in detail how we came to negotiate at Geneva. The idea of an International Trade Organisation and a General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade is in line with the policy of the Atlantic Charter, the Mutual Aid Agreements and Bretton Woods. They are all part of an international policy designed to avoid some of the mistakes made in the period between the wars.
It was a formidable undertaking to combine discussion of the draft Charter of an International Trade Organisation with the negotiation of a General Agreement based on the principles of the Charter to come into force in advance of it. The commercial future of the various countries concerned was difficult to judge. But there was a universal feeling that me opportunity had to be seized before restrictive arrangements, however necessary in present conditions, came to

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be accepted as the normal pattern for postwar trade. Bearing in mind what happened after the first world war, it was a remarkable achievement for so many countries to produce a General Agreement with very lengthy schedules of undertakings about tariffs. Not everyone will be satisfied on every particular, but there can be no question about the magnitude and significance of the general result.
The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, therefore, grew out of the discussions of the draft Charter. An agreement on tariffs alone would have been liable to frustration had it not included provisions to regulate the use of other barriers and devices to restrict trade. The General Agreement, therefore, repeats many of the provisions of the draft Charter. The parties to the Agreement undertake to observe to the fullest extent of their executive authority the general principles of the draft Charter, and provision is made for certain parts of the Agreement to be superseded, when the Charter comes into force, by the corresponding provisions of the Charter.
The General Agreement will not enter into force finally until it has been accepted by signatories accounting for 85 per cent. of the total external trade of the countries participating in the Final Act at Geneva. A number of countries, however—United Kingdom, United States, Canada, Australia, France and the Belgium-Luxembourg-Netherlands Customs Union—agreed at Geneva to apply the General Agreement provisionally as from 1st January, 1948. Cuba has since joined this group. Some of these countries, including the United Kingdom, have also in fact, though not as a matter of right, given effect to the tariff concessions negotiated at Geneva with the other participating countries who have not so far agreed to apply the Agreement on a provisional basis.
This treatment may not, however, be continued indefinitely unless the other countries concerned come into the Agreement and play their part. It will be possible for any of the countries who apply the Agreement provisionally to withdraw such application on 30 days' notice at any time before the Agreement comes into force finally. It is also provided that countries which apply the Agreement pro-
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visionally need do so, so far as most of the general clauses of the Agreement are concerned, only to the maximum extent consistent with existing legislation. This proviso does not, of course, apply to the tariff concessions embodied in the Agreement, which are to be implemented at once.
The Agreement will remain in force from the date when it is applied finally until 1st January, 1951, after which date any party will be free to give six months' notice of withdrawal. It will also be open to any party to the Agreement, after 1st January, 1951, to negotiate for such modification as it may find necessary, in the schedules of tariff concessions negotiated by it.
The General Agreement is the operative agreement which resulted from the Geneva Conference. But since the general clauses of this Agreement reflect the draft Charter it will, perhaps, be better to deal with the general clauses of the Charter and General Agreement together and the tariff concessions thereafter, remembering that the two are closely connected. The Charter is now under discussion at Havana, and the House will no doubt agree that a detailed debate at this stage on the precise point reached in the ebb and flow of that discussion would be premature. A greatly widened circle of nations is now examining the Charter. New points of view are being expressed and a great many old arguments being gone over again. It will perhaps be sufficient for the moment to sketch the outline of the draft Charter as it stands, paying particular attention to those points which are most important to this country.
The main principles of the draft Charter were debated on 24th March, before the Conference at Geneva opened. My right hon. and learned Friend the then President of the Board of Trade there stated the argument for the multilateral approach which is the foundation of the Charter and set out the view which the Government took about the forthcoming negotiations. Briefly, he explained the Government's support of the general line of the draft Charter and of a multilateral trading system on the following lines. This country is faced with the need for a vast expansion of export trade. That trade depends on a great diversity of articles

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and a great diversity of markets. The general problem can only be affected by a general rise in the volume of our exports, but since before the war we did 20 per cent. of the total world trade in manufactured goods, then if world trade remained static, we should have to secure 35 per cent. of the total world trade in manufactured goods; which is obviously ridiculous. Moreover, within the general problem there is the problem of hard currency areas, and although there is a large field for expansion of mutual trading relations between the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth countries, there is no hope that by concentrating on that alone we can entirely do without trade with the rest of the world.
For all these reasons he pointed out that to us, perhaps more than any other country, it was essential that the countries of the world should adopt the right trading habits and avoid restrictive methods, whether by tariffs or other means, of protecting their own trade and canalising that of others. He went on to say that obviously we in our turn would have to make some contribution to the general freeing of world markets. There can be no question but that that view is the right view, and everything that has happened since March last year underlines its importance.
In general, the discussions at Geneva followed the lines set out in the first draft of the Charter, but there were naturally changes and among other things, important further safeguards for our balance of payments position are now included. It is necessary, however, to get both the draft Charter and the General Agreement into perspective. They are not in themselves a cure for our present troubles; they are part of a framework within which we feel that the permanent well-being and stability of this country can best be found. That framework may also help to prevent, during the period of transition, the revival of the restrictions and impediments to trade which proved so harmful between the wars.
The Charter is not in itself sufficient for this; it is only part of the framework; it will contribute to the desired end, but its contribution will be fulfilled only if other policies operate fully. Conspicuous among these are the policies exemplified by the International Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and the Food
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and Agriculture Organisation; all of them being based in turn on the fundamental policies of securing proper development of the economic resources of the world, and particularly the full employment of labour. Finally, the full operation of the Charter will be prevented if the present unbalance in the world is not put right. Insomuch as the Charter will help even in the transitional period to expand multilateral trade, it will itself, of course, contribute to rectifying that unbalance.
In the course of the Debate last year, my right hon. and learned Friend gave certain undertakings as to the conduct of the negotiations and the objects we were pursuing. The House may like to recall these and to judge how far they were honoured. It will be seen that in fact they were scrupulously observed. In the first place he emphasised that while we had pledged ourselves to include Imperial Preferences in the bargaining process, we were under no one-sided obligation to eliminate or reduce preferences, and that we, together with other Commonwealth countries, were the judges as to whether the counter-concessions offered to us were sufficient to induce us to modify Preference margins in return. He saw no prospect of the elimination of all Preferences but agreed some might be eliminated. He emphasised that in respect of the preferences which we accord to the Dominions it was for them to say whether their removal was justified, and added that we should certainly not agree unilaterally to their elimination without the agreement of the other Commonwealth Governments. Whatever was given up would have to be part of a mutually satisfactory bargain.
When we come to look at the result of the tariff negotiations it will be seen that these conditions were carefully observed. My right hon. and learned Friend also emphasised that we had to secure our freedom to engage in bulk buying under commercial considerations and to plan our imports so as to use our limited exchange resources to the best advantage. The provisions which emerge from Geneva adequately safeguard both these freedoms.
The draft charter has three main themes, first, the reduction of barriers to trade; second, the establishment of a multilateral system; and third, the encouragement within that system of economic developments. It is no

1215
academic scheme, however, and where rigid insistence on absolute principles would have made the charter unworkable it will be found that, with proper safeguards, suitable relaxations and adjustments have been introduced. The traditional barrier to trade is the tariff. The draft charter provides for negotiations for the reductions of tariffs, and we shall look at the first group of that policy in the Geneva Agreement. Tariffs are only one form of barrier. For us, a greater danger lies in the unrestricted use by other countries of other cruder and more drastic methods, and both the draft charter and the general agreement contain provisions directed at these.
The general acceptance of these provisions may well contribute, more than anything else of this sort, to our ability to expand and maintain our export trade. Among the most important of them is that quantitative restriction or quotas shall not be used as a method of protection. Rules, however, are laid down which provide that, with the approval of the International trade organisation, such quotas may be used for the purpose of economic development provided it can be shown that they are likely to be less damaging to other members than any alternative means. There are also certain exceptions relating to special circumstances such as the enforcement of Governmental measures for regulating the marketing or production of agricultural or fisheries products. It is recognised, moreover, that quantitative restriction may be necessary to safeguard the balance of payment. That is of particular importance in present conditions and introduces very necessary flexibility into the general rule.
In principle, restrictions used to safeguard the balance of payments must be non-discriminatory, but again provision is made for certain important exceptions, which I shall mention later. Subsidies are permitted but must be notified to the organisation with an indication of their estimated effect, and a country using subsidies must consult with others if the organisation determines that a subsidy is causing, or threatens to cause, serious detriment to their interests. Provision is made for co-operation with the International Monetary Fund, and members will undertake not to frustrate the intent of the provision of the charter by exchange action.
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There are a number of miscellaneo provisions dealing with freedom of transit, anti-dumping and countervailing duties, valuation for customs purposes, customs and other formalities, marks of origin and the publication and administration of trade regulations. They are designed to establish a code of commercial conduct and to prevent hinderance to trade and the frustration of tariff concessions by these various indirect methods. There would be nothing to be gained by going into any details on this, but the matters covered are of importance in the context of securing more easy exchange of goods, and their abuse in the past has often impeded our trade.
Mr. Leslie Hale: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the question of discrimination, could he answer a question of importance with regard to cotton? Does Article 17, relating to trading, apply to the whole of our production of raw cotton in view of the existence of the Centralised Buying Control organisation? If it does, is the whole range of raw cotton—America, Egypt and Europe—treated as a single commodity for the purpose of Article 13, and, if so, is there not already, so far as we are concerned, a fundamental and widespread disequilibrium with the meaning of Article 14?
Mr. Bottomley: The President of the Board of Trade, who will wind up the discussion, will deal with details of this nature a little more fully.
When we turn to the multilateral theme, in the first place provision is made for countries to accord most-favourednation treatment to one another, and provision is also made for national treatment in respect of internal taxation, that is to say, that internal taxation must apply with equal force to the domestic products as to the imported articles. As regards State trading enterprises, it is provided that such enterprises shall act in accordance with commercial consideration in a wide sense.
Moreover, this theme of equal treatment for all is applied also to the use of quantitative restrictions which, as has been noted, are permissible to safeguard the balance of payments and may, with the approval of the organisation, be used also for purposes of development in certain cases. I have already mentioned that there are exceptions to this general

1217
rule. They are necessarily complicated, since the subject is difficult, as we have found in attempting to work out with the representatives of other countries a generally acceptable set of rules. As matters stand, the general effect of the rules is as follows. Until the end of 1948 the non-discrimination provisions are in abeyance for all parties to the agreement. After that date, individual countries may secure an extension of this freedom, provided that it is agreed by majority vote to the contracting parties. In any event, they will be allowed, until March, 1952, to discriminate if by doing so they can obtain more imports than under a system of rigid non-discrimination, provided that they do not do so as part of arrangements involving deliberate diversion of exports in a way which would result in a net loss of hard currency.
Mr. Boothby: If non-discrimination is so desirable, why have so many exceptions, provisions and safeguards against it?
Mr. Bottomley: I am bound to say that this is a long-term lead. May I go on? Hon. Members will appreciate that on a technical subject of this kind one cannot let one's eloquence flow and use the rhetoric which would be more suitable when appearing for the first time at the Front Bench. I am trying to keep as close as I can to what I consider are the facts.
The exercise of this freedom is at the option of the country concerned and no previous sanction for such policies is required. It can, however, be challenged after the event, if other members of the organisation have reason to believe that the right to this freedom is being abused. There are other safeguards designed to ensure that countries do not use these provisions at the cost of an unduly high disparity between the prices which they pay and those which they would have to pay in the cheapest market, but these provisions are flexible and are mainly designed to emphasise the fact that discrimination is a bad thing for the country which discriminates if it means that it has to pay an unnecessarily high price for its supplies.
After March, 1952, countries will not have the right to discriminate without approval, though they will still be entitled
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to apply to the Organisation for this right. The Organisation will then judge on the general economic position of the applicant country and decide whether the grant of this right would enable it to improve its position. The Organisation will not in any event be entitled to prohibit individual transactions. Its determination will be confined to the general right of a member to adopt discriminatory restrictions.
We have therefore, three stages which it is hoped will correspond with the adjustment of the present clisequilibrium between the old and the new world. During 1948, countries can discriminate more or less unconditionally. From the beginning of 1949 until March, 1952, countries have the same right to discriminate at their discretion, but they may be called to justify their actions before the tribunal of the trade organisation. After 1952, the general assumption is that countries will not need to discriminate, but they can apply for the general right to do so, which will be decided by the organisation.
From the beginning of 1949, therefore, freedom to discriminate will, to some extent, be subject to the concurrence of the Organisation, but until 1952 a country can go ahead without any form of permission unless a complaint is upheld by a majority vote of the Organisation. We are confident that it is most unlikely that any action which we would feel it necessary to take would conflict with these provisions. We consider that the non-discrimination provisions of the General Agreement, as now drafted, should not conflict with any of the policies which we are likely to wish to pursue during the next few years. The only type of transaction which they would disallow would be discrimination in imports as part of arrangements which would, in effect, result in a net loss of hard currency earnings because of a deliberate policy of steering exports away from markets where such currencies could be earned, and reserving them for other markets in return for specified quantities of supplies.
We are satisfied that, unless our main assumptions about the course of events during the next two years are completely falsified, it will not be necessary for us to adopt policies of this kind, to which there are obvious objections in any case, and that our needs will be met to the greatest extent possible by making a special effort to build up our exports to hard currency

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markets in which we may earn gold or convertible currencies which can be used in any part of the world. Moreover, any extension of a general right for countries to conclude what would in effect be barter arrangements, would be calculated to prejudice our own ability to obtain our essential imports, since countries which would normally supply those imports to us might well, especially in the immediate transitional period, find it possible to extort better conditions from other markets than we could afford to concede.
The third theme in the draft Charter is economic development. It is sometimes observed by criticis of the Charter that it is in effect an instrument for the protection of the interests of the major-developed countries and is directed against the possibility of economic development by the less industrialised countries. As far as His Majesty's Government are concerned this is most emphatically not the case. Quite apart from the British practical record in all fields of overseas development within the Commonwealth and Empire and elsewhere, the Charter itself bears all the evidence to the contrary. A whole new chapter has been written into the Charter dealing specifically with the problem of the position of countries seeking to develop their economies. There is nothing grudging or half-hearted about our approach to this chapter, and we hope that this will become abundantly clear when the Trade Organisation is set up and operations begin under its provision.
Here again, the Trade Organisation cannot possibly cover the whole field. Other agencies associated with the United Nations have clear and specific responsibility in this matter, and no legal rights written into a document of this kind could make any major contribution to the problem of the development of the world's latent resources. The Charter contains a clear recognition that all countries have a common interest in the productive use of the world's resources, and that the industrial and general economic development of all countries, and particularly of those in which resources are as yet relatively undeveloped, will improve opportunities for employment, enhance the productivity of labour, increase the demand for goods and services, contribute to economic balance, expand international trade and raise levels of real income everywhere.
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It is in this spirit that His Majesty's Government view the problem of economic development, and it is in this spirit that they have co-operated in working out the articles of the development chapter of the Charter. These impose upon members the obligation to take action designed progressively to develop industrial and other economic resources, and to raise standards of productivity. Members are also obliged to co-operate with one another, with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations, with the Trade Organisation and with other inter-governmental organisations in promoting industrial and general economic development. The Charter contains further provisions for expert advice and assistance to countries desiring to embark upon programmes of development. It provides for access to supplies of capital, materials, modern equipment, technology and technical and managerial skill necessary for large-scale development.
The Charter also contains articles providing that exceptions may be made to the general rules of commercial policy embodied in the Charter if the Organisation agrees that such exceptions are necessary in the interests of the programme of economic development or reconstruction of a member country. The relevant article does not, of course, permit any country to take advantage of its provisions without the approval of the Organisation, because to do so would clearly involve abandoning the rules altogether as far as any country was concerned which could plausibly claim that it was carrying out a programme of economic development.
In the view of His Majesty's Government, economic development must be carried out in an orderly and considered manner and with due regard for the interests of others, particularly in the early stages of such development. It is for this reason that we have taken the line rather strongly that exceptions to the general rules laid down in the Charter should only be made in the case of infant industries with the prior approval of the Trade Organisation. This is most emphatically not a device for securing that development of this kind shall not take place, but merely to ensure that actions, which may, particularly in the short-term, have considerably adverse effects upon the interests of members at large, are not

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taken without discussion before the forum of the Organisation.
It is our firm view that such procedure will normally be in the interests of the applicant member as well as of others, and that for the Charter to take the alternative course of recognising the right of countries to take their own decisions as to whether the rules of the Organisation should apply to them in particular cases, would not be a contribution to the promotion of economic development, which does not rest on any such legal basis, but a step away from the ordered progress which is the basic concept underlying the whole approach to the International Trade Organisation.
At the present time it may appear a far cry to refer to the problem of surpluses, but there is no doubt that the existence of such surpluses of agriculture and raw material products during the inter-war years was one of the major problems affecting world economy, and particular attention has, therefore, been paid in the Charter to this problem. Great care has been taken to work out the most effective machinery for dealing with problems of this kind as they arise, with the twin objectives of ensuring as far as possible that needed foodstuffs and raw materials are not wasted, but also that excess capacity to produce such goods is not kept in existence after a period necessary to effect adjustments. The whole concept underlying the commodity policy chapter of the Charter is that problems of surplus are a common difficulty affecting producers and consumers alike, and that there must be close study of such problems as they arise with a view to advising the most equitable solution based on the principles of ensuring that needed goods are used and that, subject to the necessary provision for readjustment, supplies are increasingly drawn from the most efficient sources of supply. We have avoided any cut and dried schemes involving regulation of output with a view to keeping up prices in the interests of producers. The texts adopted represent a fair compromise between the interests of producers and consumers, and set the stage for a recognised approach to each such surplus problem as it arises.
There is no need to emphasise the importance of this part of the Charter to world economy and particularly to the future prosperity of the primary producers
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in the Commonwealth. We must not underestimate its importance to the United Kingdom, both as a consumer and as an exporting country which depends on the prosperity of primary producers overseas.
We have now covered the field common to the draft Charter and the General Agreement. The House will be particularly interested, however, to have some account of the tariff negotiations which are reflected in the Agreement; though, as I have said, they are to be regarded as the first fruits of the policy that has led to the Charter. Before proceeding to analyse the results of these negotiations, I should like to refer briefly to the arrangements made to keep in close touch with industry during the discussions in regard both to tariffs and to the general matters. During the negotiations the President of the Board of Trade had the benefit of a number of discussions in London with a Consultative Committee for Industry, set up for this purpose. On this Committee were representatives of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, the Federation of British Industries, the National Farmers' Union, the National Union of Manufacturers and the Trades Union Congress.
In taking this opportunity to acknowledge the valuable assistance provided by this Committee, I should like to make it clear that neither the Committee nor its individual members carry any responsibility for the decisions taken in the course of the Conference, nor for consultation with individual industries. As regards individual industries, the Board of Trade and other production Departments took all possible steps before the Conference began to ascertain their views about all questions affecting their tariff position in the United Kingdom and other markets. It will be obvious that no general agreement of the scope of this one could be concluded without our making concessions which particular industries might prefer us not to have made. These contacts with industry, however, ensured that our representatives were fully appraised of the measure of risk involved in the various concessions requested and enabled to preserve an overall balance.
There is one other general point I should like to deal with before turning to the details of the tariff negotiations. It is the general provision, in respect of pre-

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ferences, that established preferences shall be excluded from the operation of the general rule about most-favoured-nation treatment. Such preferences are, however, limited for all countries to such margins as may be settled by negotiation, or where no negotiations have covered the point, to margins existing on the 10th April, 1947, when the Geneva Conference began, or such earlier date as may be agreed.
The effect is that all existing preferences within the Commonwealth may be continued, save in so far as they may be modified from time to time by negotiation, but it is not consistent with the Agreement or the Charter to introduce new or increased preferences. This applies, of course, with equal force to the preferences accorded to each other by the United States and Cuba, or by France or the Benelux Union to their overseas territories. The acceptance of this limitation of future action was part of the general bargain.
It would be tedious to take the House through the details of the various schedules. There has been time and opportunity now both for hon. Members and for interested industries to examine what they contain; though it is, indeed, a massive task, for the schedules are so lengthy that, as is well known, we had to wait for copies to be made by the United Nations rather than reprint them ourselves. But a brief account may help to illustrate what has been done.
The Command Paper analyses in statistical terms the concessions made by the United Kingdom and the concessions made by other countries from which the United Kingdom might expect to benefit. The only convenient method of comparison is to take the latest representative year of normal trading—1938—and compare the fields covered by concessions given and received in terms of the prices and pattern of trade then prevailing. On this basis and in broad summary figures, we have agreed reductions, or the equivalent of reductions, in our own tariff on goods of which our imports in 1938 from the foreign countries parties to the Agreement were valued at a little over £30 million; we have suffered a contraction in the system of Commonwealth preferences for our exports on goods in which those foreign countries had a trade in 1938 with the Commonwealth countries concerned
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worth £37 million; in return, we have obtained tariff reductions affecting United Kingdom exports valued in 1938 at £48 million. A crude comparison of these figures would suggest that we have made a poor bargain, but a closer scrutiny will show that that is not so.
We have obtained concessions in the form of reductions of duty, from which we should stand to gain on export trade which before the war amounted to £48 million, and, in addition, on about £46 million we have secured our export trade against interruption by any future increase of tariffs. Moreover, it is important to note that the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade provides that we shall receive most-favoured-nation treatment from the other parties to the Agreement and therefore enjoy as of right any concessions made by them to third parties. It will be found that for most of the main exporting industries we have obtained some reduction or binding of tariffs and in particular that on some of the more characteristic United Kingdom exports to the United States we have secured appreciable reductions.
Some special reference to the reductions of the United States tariff is necessary in any general balancing of gains and losses. Two points, in particular, may be emphasised. The first is that the effect of the United States concessions will be felt immediately, since there is no restriction on imports into the U.S.A. The second is that we have never earned our dollars mainly by direct sales to the U.S.A., and the United States concessions to other countries indirectly help us also by facilitating the flow of dollars to finance the favourable balance of trade that we are seeking to build up with these countries.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: In speaking of imports, as far as America is concerned, has the hon. Gentleman included the Crawford Act?
Mr. Bottomley: May I look into that? I cannot give the answer at once, but I will ask my right hon. Friend to reply later in the Debate.
I was saying that the Agreement helps us by facilitating the flow of dollars to finance the favourable balance of trade that we are seeking to build up with certain countries. For example, although we do not export meat, butter and wool to the U.S.A., the reductions of duty on these

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goods for the benefit of the Southern Dominions are of the greatest interest to us also, and it was right that we should play our part in facilitating the negotiation of such reductions. It is necessary for this reason to have regard to the new United States tariff as a whole, and not merely to abstract from it the items of direct interest to us. In total, the U.S.A. have made concessions on some 3,400 items, of which in 1939 their total imports were valued at 1,800 million dollars, or 78 per cent. of the total of United States imports in that year. This general revision of the United States tariff is plainly an important contribution to the restoration of normal international trade, and full account must be taken of it as well as of the concessions made by other countries in measuring what we have gained against what we have given up.
Apart from these important, though indirect gains, we obtained substantial concessions in the U.S. tariff. The major items of United Kingdom export trade which stand to benefit are linen piece goods, where a 50 per cent. reduction was almost uniformly given; woollen piece goods, where a substantial reduction of about 30 per cent., varying for different categories, was offered; whisky, where the specific duty was reduced from 2.50 dollars to 1.50 dollars per gallon; earthenware and chinaware, where less substantial but useful reductions were obtained. But a large part of our export trade with the U.S.A. consists of a great miscellany of specialities which individually do not attain a large volume, though in the aggregate they are very important. On these smaller individual items, the United States offers were, in general, very satisfactory, many being the full 50 per cent. reduction. By and large, it may be said that the United States offers were satisfactory and as large as could be expected.
Sir A. Salter: Speaking of the general measure or extent of the United States reductions, would it be true to say that the total effect of them was approximately to reduce the general American level of tariffs to what it was at the lowest point in modern times?
Mr. Bottomley: Yes, Sir. I think it would be approximately true to say that.
So much for the United States; may I now deal with the French? The French
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had been recasting their tariff, changing over from specific to ad valorem duties. In spite of this complication we obtained a good many adjustments of duty and as far as goods are concerned in which this country is chiefly interested, the tariff is now fairly comparable with our own. The tariff of the Belgium-Netherlands-Luxembourg Customs Union had just been worked out with very great labour. It would have been too much to expect radical alterations in what must have been a delicate compromise. We, therefore, did not obtain much by way of reduction of duties but in the result a good deal of the new joint tariff is bound against increase; some of it, for example, cotton piece goods at comparatively low rates.
With the other foreign countries, there was less scope for negotiation, either because, on the whole, their duties have not seriously impeded trade, or because it was not possible for us to make significant concessions to them on the few commodities which they send to us. The extreme example of this is Cuba, whose exports of rum, sugar and cigars are all items in which the revenue aspect of the duty is paramount, and with whom, therefore, mutual reductions of duty were not possible. Nevertheless, the concessions we have obtained, scattered like our trade over many small items in many countries, were, in total, well worth while.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Could the House be informed whether the American preferences on Cuban goods at the present time have been reduced, or is that matter sacrosanct and to stay as it is?
Mr. Bottomley: There, again, I think an answer has already been given in this House. A question was put to the President of the Board of Trade and an answer given. I have nothing to add to that.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Can I have an answer to an important question?
Mr. Bottomley: Let us now turn to the question of preferences.
Here it may just be noted that Canada bound or reduced a very great part of her most-favoured-nation tariff, and, wherever she did so, also bound or reduced the preferential rate of duty. The old preferential rates were, on the whole, not high; but useful, if small, reductions

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have been obtained for such goods as rayon piece-goods, some cotton piece-goods, linen towelling, chocolate and other confectionery and also toilet soap. In Australia we have secured reductions of duty—though sometimes the new duty is still high—on a very wide range of goods including electrical apparatus, motive power machinery, tools, woollen piece-goods, linen goods, apparel, hats and hosiery. There is, in fact, a general scaling down of the Australian preferential tariff. We have also obtained in the other principal Commonwealth countries, where the possibilities were more limited, bindings or reductions on a number of useful items, and in South Africa, India, and Pakistan where, in many cases, we are subject to the most-favoured-nation rates of duty, we benefit also by concessions made to third countries.
To secure concessions for the United Kingdom we had, of course, to make counter-concessions ourselves. These fall into two parts—what we did on our own tariff, and the scaling down of preferences. Before analysing these it should first be noted briefly (a) that some of the concessions we made on the United Kingdom tariff affect commodities, such as dried fruits, which are more a concern of other Commonwealth countries than of the United Kingdom; and (b) that some of the reductions which we agreed to in the preferences we enjoy were to assist other Commonwealth countries in securing concessions from others and have to be set against the substantial benefits which we obtained in return from them.
To take our own tariff reductions first, we have agreed to reduce current ad valorem rates of duty affecting imports from the foreign countries parties to the general agreement, valued in 1938 at just under £20 million, and to bind against increase, in respect of a further £10 million, a number of specific duties which, owing to the higher level of postwar costs and prices, have lost a material part of their prewar effect. The combined result is that, in terms of 1938 prices and the 1938 pattern of trade, foreign countries parties to the agreement stand to benefit in respect of about £30·4 million worth of their trade with us.
The average level of the United Kingdom tariff was never high, and the con-
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cessions we have made on it go some little way to reduce the protection it can afford to our industries. But the concessions have all been negotiated, after full consultation with production departments, in the knowledge of the views of manufacturers and producers, and they ought not, generally speaking, to result in any serious prejudice to the position of our industries in the domestic market. Many of the reductions are relatively small; many others are selective, and relate only to particular items which should not need the full level of protection accorded to the general class or description of goods to which they belong under the present tariff.
Again, in a number of cases, care has been taken to reserve from reduction of duty the cheaper end of the trade where tariff protection may, in the event of a slump, be most necessary. In some of these cases, higher specific duties have been agreed to deal with this, as part and parcel of the reductions conceded in the ad valorem duties applicable to the higher-priced ranges. To take a few illustrative examples: the general level of reduction in the important field of textiles is from 20 to 17½ per cent. ad valorem for piece goods and from ro to 7½ per cent. for yarns, but the specific duties which may be charged on cheap silk and rayon piece goods are increased to keep them in line with postwar costs and prices; on machinery, there is no general reduction of duty for machinery as such, but particular products have been selected for a reduction of the order of 2½ or 5 per cent. ad valorem.
We have also agreed to the reduction by other Commonwealth countries of a good number of the margins of preference accorded by them. The White Paper gave figures to show the scope of these reductions, and there is no need to repeat them now. These figures provide a rough method of assessing the possible gains of foreign countres, but do not serve so well to estimate the possible disadvantage to us, for our interest and theirs often lie in different fields. In some cases, the reduction in the preference resulted from a reduction in the protective tariff, which was the main objective of the foreign country which negotiated it. There is one other point. It will have been noted from the White Paper that half the trade covered by preference concessions is accounted for by items in which a rela-

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tively small part of the preference has been surrendered.
It is easy to be misled, however, if one looks simply at statistics of past trade in considering these questions of preference. In common with the other Commonwealth countries, we made it clear from the start that any foreign country that wished to secure the reduction of a preferential margin would have to negotiate for it in the same way as the reduction or binding of a Customs duty, and that the Commonwealth country enjoying the preference would have to be compensated for any concession made. In this way, both preferences that we accord to other Commonwealth countries and those which they accord to us were reduced in a number of instances, in return for benefits in the way of reductions orbinding of low duties —in the tariffs of the foreign countries to which the concessions were made.
There has been no question of dismantling the preferential system, but, rather, of making concessions in it as part of the general bargain. And, as the country enjoying the preference had to be satisfied, we can be pretty sure that the bargain, as a whole, is reasonably sound. We do not wish to suggest that none of the concessions which we made in respect of preferences matters. We believe we paid in good coin for what we secured from other countries. It is very difficult, however, to say just where the concessions will affect the prospects of our trade. Everyone has a different opinion about that. We believe, on the whole, however, that we have given no more than was reasonable.
Perhaps it may be useful to describe how we went about this business. In the first place we attempted, as far as was practicable in the multitude of negotiations which were going on, to spread the gains and losses among industries in the most advantageous way, although, naturally, some of the more important industries were attacked from all quarters. We could have tried to get away with a number of spectacular reductions or eliminations of preference, but, if we had tried that, we may have been in difficulties. We chose, rather, to widen the field, and to limit the depth of the reductions. It would be invidious to pick out particular cases, but a study of the schedules will show how far we were successful in these aims.
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It must be remembered that some of the margins which we had were very large, and, even although substantial reductions have been made, we are still left with very fair margins, as, for example, in New Zealand, where, on some of the drapery and haberdashery items, our margin of preference has been reduced from 35 to 20 per cent., and on motorcars, even after reduction, is still 35 per cent.
Mr. Gallacher: Pay attention over there.
Mr. Bottomley: Further, the reduction in our margin has frequently been coupled with a reduction in the preferential rate, which should do something to offset the effect. For example, in Canada, we had a margin of 1 dollar per gallon on whisky, and a duty of five dollars. The margin is now 50 cents, but the duty, also, is reduced to 4 dollars, 50 cents.
I must apologise for keeping the House so long, but I am sure hon. Members would rather have the fullest possible statement in order to let the Debate take place with full information.
In some cases, we have acquiesced in the reduction of our margins in order to enable the Commonwealth country concerned to get an agreement with one of the other negotiating countries. A conspicuous example—this case concerns two Commonwealth countries—is the reduction of our cotton piece goods preferences in Australia for the benefit of India, which was important in bringing India into the Agreement. It was also important in justifying the considerable reductions of duty which Australia has accorded us in other items. Then there were cases, for example the elimination of our preference on anthracite in Canada, where the governing factor was the need of the Commonwealth country concerned. The Canadians prefer our anthracite, but the existence of a tariff against anthracite from the United States when we cannot supply has meant increased costs to the Canadian consumer.
Somewhat similar is the case of industrial machinery in South Africa, but there, in spite of the obvious advantage to South Africa of complete free entry for important capital equipment, we were able to maintain a preference of 3 per

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cent, as against the old 5 per cent. Finally, it may be of interest to the House if we take one commodity and examine what has happened to it in the agreement as a whole. I do not choose one which is particularly favourable to us. The motor car industry had little to gain by tariff concessions. Its chief concern was to hold such advantages as it had. Because of the importance of the industry it was inevitable that concessions should be sought by foreign countries in practically every tariff and that Imperial Preference should be strongly attacked wherever it existed. The United Kingdom tariff remains unchanged, but some narrowing of the preference margin has had to be conceded in the most important Commonwealth markets where a preference existed.
In Australia, the most important concession has been the narrowing of the preference margins on chassis by 1d. per lb. We have secured some useful reductions in the preferential duties on motor car bodies and panels. Reductions have also been made in the effective preferential rates on parts and engines; these latter have been accompanied, however, by a moderate narrowing of the preference margins. In New Zealand, the margins of preference on motor cars, assembled and unassembled, have been reduced to 35 per cent. There has been no compensatory advantage, but the remaining margin is of course considerable. In India, the margin of 9 per cent. is to be progressively reduced, until, in six years' time, it disappears altogether. Again, there is no compensatory advantage, but only private cars are affected, not commercial vehicles, on which we retain the preference of 9 per cent.
In South Africa, there is no preference and ad valorem ceilings have been fixed for cars within the different value classes. These caused misunderstanding among United Kingdom motor car manufacturers who assumed, not unnaturally, that the existing specific duty of £1 3s. per 100 lb. weight for cars up to £400 value would be changed to 20 per cent. ad valorem, the ceiling for cars up to £600. Far from this being the case, the Union Government have not only left the duty at £1 3s. but have recently extended its application to cars above £400 and up to £600 which hitherto have been dutiable at 25 per cent. ad valorem. The United Kingdom
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industry should gain by this change, and by the reduction of the duty on cars valued at £600–£800 from 30 per cent. to 25 per cent. ad valorem. In Canada, the preference has been maintained. Reductions in the tariff for Czechoslovakia and in the new French tariff may be of some advantage.
Now may I refer to the wider issue? Quite apart from all these prewar figures of tariff and preference reductions which might or might not be presented in a manner to suggest that we have made a good bargain, it is, of course, essential to keep the broader context of these tariff negotiations in full view. We did not go to Geneva simply to get reductions in tariffs. Tariff reductions are but one of the many necessary factors to achieve our real objective. That objective is to ensure that once countries have got over the transitional difficulties of the post-war period, the way will be open—and unprejudiced—for the restoration of a multilateral system of international trade, instead of the host of import restrictions, financial clearings and exchange controls with which international trade was being gradually checked before the war and which could only make for the increasing impoverishment of a country like ours, which lives on free and flourishing conditions for import and export business.
Faced as we are with the imperative need to increase our exports, we stand to lose more than ever from any revival, on the longer term, of high tariffs and trade barriers. The essential value of the Geneva Conference is that it has defined this objective clearly and has lined up the major trading countries of the world to set about its achievement as soon as each of them individually can recover from the present economic consequences of the war. Naturally, it has been necessary for everyone to take some risks, for the future is full of uncertainty and the assumption of any long term obligation must involve some leap in the dark, but it is a measure of mutual confidence that so much was in fact agreed. It would have been a strange thing if the United Kingdom, of all countries, had hung back in such a trial of confidence; we have played a leading part as a country with a leading interest.
4.46 p.m.
Mr. Oliver Lyttelton: The hon. Member told us that this was the first important speech he had made from

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the Front Bench. When he goes to bed tonight I think he will have the satisfaction of knowing that he has discharged a very difficult task on a technical subject without losing the good will of the House. At the same time, and in the friendliest spirit, might I suggest to the senior Ministers that they should allow their Parliamentary Secretaries a little more latitude and that when the Front Bench requires to put up some barrage balloons those ballons should be of a less captive nature? I do congratulate the hon. Member, however, on having dealt with the subject in such a workmanlike manner.
I would like to deal with the subject on the very broadest lines and to devote only a very few sentences to discussing the details of the bargain. I confess that I did not follow the hon. Member's figures. I hope to give the House some of my own. If they are incorrect, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will interrupt me. On the "Give" side of the account I make out that we bind—that is the new technical term for an undertaking never to increase and it is better than most new inventions—duty free or ad valorem duties covering £63·1 million of our trade, and we agree to reduce rates on £19·8 million. In addition, we bind rates which, owing to rises in prices, amount to a reduction—they are tantamount to a reduction—of about £10,500,000, or a total of £93,500,000. Then there is the sum of £37 million to which the hon. Gentleman referred, of reductions by Commonwealth countries, granted to foreign trade, against which sum £29 million are by bindings and £36 million are by reductions on the other side. On the "Give" side of the account that covers £130,500,000 of our trade, or about 10 per cent. of our total exports.
On the "Receive" side of the account, bindings and deductions by foreign countries cover a total of £65 million. Similar concessions by Commonwealth countries cover £27 million, a total of £92 million. Therefore, on the surface, we have made concessions covering £130,500,000 and received concessions on £92 million. It is fair to say that on £37 million of that sum the reductions are not all at our expense. The document which we have before us is no more than apologetic on this point. There is the usual official jargon at the top of page vi. Hon. Gentlemen will see, if they
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look at it, that the Department is not very confident about what it says. I admit also that the calculations are rough and ready, because they just cover the amount of trade without going into details.
What conclusions are we to draw from these figures? I do not think the hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Overseas Trade would deny—in fact, I think he confirmed—first that there is every sign that a nicety of balance has been sought in the bargain; and, secondly, that the bargain is, if anything, not particularly in our favour. In the present state of the world and in our present plight, trying to recover from the effects of two world wars in which, taking the two together, we have certainly borne the lion's share and not disgraced our national emblem, a nicety of balance or an arrangement which, if anything, is weighted against us, surely must serve to freeze or stereotype the essential inequalities and differences which exist today. Moreover, these factors will delay rather than hasten the time when we shall get on to our feet again.
I beg the new President of the Board of Trade, also in no carping spirit, not to get negotiator's fever, if he has not already contracted the disease. No one on this side of the House will give any credit to anyone for coming to an agreement about anything. We can all buy and sell things quite easily, but the price is what matters, and, although this sounds a resounding platitude, it is one which it is necessary to enunciate from time to time, because all of us who have been in negotiations know how easy it is to reach agreement by leaving vague what is difficult and by eliminating or discarding what very often it is essential to retain. That is all I have to say on the details of the bargain, and the House will be very glad to hear that I shall not refer to those details again.
The document contains a number of Clauses, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, concerning such dusty subjects as marks of origin, consular invoices, formalities connected with importation, publication of trade regulations and so forth. Dull though these may be, and whatever the fate of the main part of the document, I do not think that to have got 23 nations to sign a code of rules about these subjects is an achievement which the House ought to under-rate. They will be useful things to cite on future

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occasions concerning the mechanism of international trade.
I now want to deal with the subject on the broadest possible lines and in the simplest possible terms. To understand a document of this kind which sees the light at such a very untimely moment, it is necessary to look back at its history. The original source from which it sprang was Clause 7 of the Mutual Aid Agreement or, in other words, Lend-Lease, which was signed in February 1942 during the height and in the deadliest grip of the war. I need not remind the House that at that time there was an exchange of letters between President Roosevelt and my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), which expressly reserved the subject of Imperial Preference, and that affirmation has been repeatedly reaffirmed by His Majesty's Government in reply to numerous questions as various times which have been addressed to them and from this side of the House.
At that time in 1942, up to 1944, all of us here, whatever our political complexion, and the Americans in particular, had an idea—or, if one likes to be more high-sounding, an ideal—of trying as soon as the war was over to restore the free flow of goods, of trying to prevent what we were pleased to call the growth of economic nationalism, to prevent the competitive depreciation of exchanges—that is, depreciation not caused by balance of payments difficulties. I confess that at that time we were thinking much more of the problem of unemployment which we thought might hit us after the war, than of the scarcity of labour which is our problem today. The panorama of destruction, and destruction on a scale which even the authors and the makers of the weapons could hardly imagine, kept on unrolling itself. Then one day silence fell on the rubble and the smoking ruins of Western Europe; vast armies of starving men, women and children moved across the face of Europe, and the chance of even the discussion of the free flow of trade had long ago been buried under the ruins of the world which originally conceived it.
This document, which has been under discussion since 1942 or 1943, bears all the marks of those long years and of the greatly changing scene of the background
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against which these negotiations have been carried on. We can all see the old core of the building—the period part, if I may so call it. We can distinguish here and there the bricks of 1942 to 1944, but, as times have changed, on to these bricks have been built a number of very ugly modern concrete extensions, fire escapes, emergency exits and all the rest, which are wholly and totally incongruous and out of character with the original building. The core of the document, of course, is a rather jejune exposition of the creed of multilateralism or, as I should prefer to call it in my rough Tory way, manysided trade. I hardly think it necessary to develop the argument that no country stands to benefit more from the restoration of many-sided trade than our own. It will be another relief to the House to know that I do not propose to develop that argument.
The growth of our population from 6½ million in 1750 to about 27 million in 1850, and what may well be 50 million in 1950, is in great measure due to the multilateral nature of the trade which we carried on. I suppose if we had to support our population on our natural and indigenous resources we could support a population of about 15 million. In fact, we support about 50 million. I think that is some measure of the part which multilateral and international trade bears in sustaining our population. It is notable that no one stresses the value of manysided trade more than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, provided always, of course, that that multilateral aspect is confined to foreign trade. The kaleidoscope and the mosaic must only apply to foreign trade, and it is one of the curiously illogical—and if I were not so polite I should say nonsensical—dogmas of Socialism that, with this belief in a manysided foreign trade, they manage without difficulty to swallow and combine a belief in nationalisation, bulk buying and State monopoly at home, all of which are the antithesis of many-sided trade. If these doctrines were not held by gentlemen so intelligent as the President of the Board of Trade and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I should have described them as the last infirmities of feeble minds.
However, without going any further into this subject, I suppose we should all agree that if foreign trade could be many sided, and truly many sided, we in Great

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Britain should greatly benefit and would probably benefit more than any other great nation in the world. Let us occasionally try to find some common point of departure. I think that it would be universally conceded. But can it? The answer must be that today, and for some years to come, it cannot. The reason is due to what the economists—and I hope there are none in the House at this moment—and their parrots are pleased to call, "Grave disequilibrium in the international balance of payments." If I may take the House into my confidence for a moment, I would like to say that when I was discussing my overdraft with my bank manager the other day I told him that I considered the term "overdraft" to be highly offensive, that he must know my only trouble was a certain disequilibrium in the domestic balance of my payments.
The two greatest exporting nations, the United States and Great Britain, have much more than changed the position of debtor and creditor which they occupied at the beginning of the century. We have in Britain today an unfavourable trade balance of £600 million a year in relation to the United States, and the United States, on the other hand, have a favourable trade balance with the world at large of £3,000 million sterling. That is disequilibrium with a vengeance.
May I give the House another piece of advice? If a man falls down a well he will not thank the person who looks over the edge and says, "There is a disequilibrium between you and the bucket swinging on the surface." As I say, we have £600 millions of unfavourable trade balance on the one side, and £3,000 million of favourable trade balance on the other. I should have thought it was transparently clear that if every concession, which is made with the object of increasing and expanding British export trade, has to be balanced by an exactly similar concession to American export trade, the position of the two trading accounts must become frozen. If somebody goes to a fair, puts the giant on one side of the scales and the midget on the other and says, "The two sides of the scales must balance, but there must be no discrimination," the giant remains with his feet on the ground and the midget with his in the air, until some-
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body sees that the theory of non-discrimination between the two is untenable. The very nature of non-discrimination makes it the father of the status quo. It is these obvious arguments, which to me appear almost axiomatic, that have led to modern extensions, fire escapes, and concrete conditions being grafted on to the old building.
One reason why we on this side of the House have put down this Amendment is to bring out into the cold light of reality the fact that multilateral trade and the doctrine of non-discrimination—themselves highly worthy objects—are today just illusions. This document has the wrong emphasis. While announcing principles in which, I think, we are all prepared to believe, it proceeds to list a number of exceptional circumstances in which these principles can be set aside. All, or nearly all, of the so-called exceptional circumstances are exactly those which are the rule today. If Members think I am exaggerating I must trespass on their patience to read some of the jargon of this document. Article XI states:
"No prohibitions or restrictions other than duties, taxes or other charges, whether made effective through quotas, import or export licences or other measures, shall be instituted or maintained by any contracting party on the importation of any product of the territory of any other contracting party or on the exportation or sale for export of any product destined for the territory of any other contracting party."
I will say "Hear, hear" to that. Article XII, which deals with restrictions to safeguard the balance of payments, states:
"Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1 of Article XI"—
which I have just read, and had to applaud myself—
"any contracting party, in order to safeguard its external financial position and balance of payments, may restrict the quantity or value of merchandise permitted to be imported subject to the provisions …"
That is where the cement comes on to the Elizabethan part of this Agreement. The emphasis is exactly wrong. We certainly fear that our adherence to these rules of conduct in international trade will be taken to mean that in the next few years we think they will rarely be broken, whereas exactly the opposite is the truth. Our preferences, our bilateral arrangements—which, I have no doubt, the President is negotiating at this

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moment—our quantitative restrictions on imports, our desire to reduce imports from hard currency countries and increase imports from soft currency countries, our attempt to build up more Empire and Western European trade, are things which we have to put in hand now. Those are not principles which are set down in this document; they are the exceptions.
I am most sincerely anxious that Great Britain should not be held up later as having put her name to a series of principles which are to be observed only in the breach. We recognise that, on long term, these principles have validity but, in the state of the world as it is today, they can only be observed in the breach. I must say, in passing, that one of the fundamental errors in thought on these subjects today, not least in the mind of His Majesty's Government, is to imagine that the vast differences in debits and credits which exist between the great trading nations can be adjusted in terms of current trade, that normally workaday imports and exports will adjust these disparities. These disparities have not been caused in the normal course of trade; they are the cataclysmic result of the incidence of two world wars. It is like a man who has lost £50,000 on the Stock Exchange trying to get his money back by playing ha'penny bridge with his friends in the train. If he has all the cards, and all the luck, he may calculate that within 1,000 years he may come out all right, but that is extremely small consolation either to his relations or to himself. In terms of trade, that is what we are trying to do.
I would emphasise that a normal, private, uninspired, unapproved by Congress, movement of capital, seeking profitable investment in stable conditions, is necessary from West to East if these adjustments are to make any progress in our lifetime. It is in creating the conditions where this might happen that His Majesty's Government have so signally failed. They have not only failed to build up any international confidence in the stability of sterling, and the purchasing power of sterling, but are daily, and in every way, announcing their complete loss of faith in their own currency. I see that the hon. Gentleman indicates dissent, but if proof were wanted is he aware that a married woman going
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abroad can take, out of all the jewellery she possesses, only her wedding ring? Why? Because women are very intelligent, and allow the force of reason, much more than we do, to govern their actions. The Government know well that any intelligent lady, if it was not outside the law, would sell her jewels and turn them into dollars, so they confine her to taking only her wedding ring with her when she travels.
I ask them what would have happened if, at the end of the last century, when we were the great creditor nation, we had found that we could only invest our money in the United States or the South American Republics at a rate of exchange which we thought false or too high—if, all the time we were trying to seek an outlet for our surplus money, we were told by the Argentine Government or the American Government that whatever happened on no account should we ever be allowed to draw our capital out again, and if, at the same time we were doing all this, we learned that no American or Argentinian or Chilean could travel to Europe with more than £5 and a wedding ring. I ask, would the money then to finance the railways upon which the development of the U.S.A. and those South American countries so much depended have flowed from the Eastern to the Western Hemisphere? Of course, it would not.
However, I do not want to digress further on that point. I want to get to the next. I state categorically, first of all, that the Marshall Plan is incompatible with the fundamental doctrine of multilateralism and non-discrimination, since it seeks by aid, by bilateral, trilateral or quadrilateral arrangements, to build up trading entities which will later proceed and progress towards many-sided trade. Mr. Amery, in his recent book, expresses it in this way:
"That Europe constitutes a group of nations whose misery is due to want of organisation and can only be cured by mutually agreed co-operation, implies an outlook fundamentally irreconcilable with the whole policy of keeping the world broken up into small non-co-operating units by the rule of non-discrimination."
Later he says:
"Such a plan is stultified from the outset if every arrangement for mutual trade is to be liable to be dislocated by the requirement of price 'non-discrimination,' and if no quantitative restrictions on imports of any kind are possible unless imposed simultaneously by the European nations on each other."

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The Marshall Plan is, however, perfectly compatible with the building up of European trade and the expansion of Empire trade; but that plan aims at objects which are contrary to those which are so pompously announced in this document and so quickly withdrawn afterwards. The Marshall Plan is contrary to the principles of this document.
I must say, that I suppose no one in this House requires convincing of the supreme importance of developing our Empire trade. I really do believe that it is the key, or the principal key, to our prison. If I may be forgiven for introducing a personal note, I would say that I think I have some right to claim expert knowledge of the subject, because, for nearly 20 years, I devoted my working life to the task of developing the metal resources of the Empire, and played some part—I have no doubt it was a small one—in making us self-sufficient in non-ferrous metals. For example, in the 1914–18 war the copper which we had to buy was paid for in dollars; it was a dollar metal. In the last war, however, as a result of the conscious pursuance of this policy of expansion, copper was a sterling metal, in the main, and paid for in sterling.
I have been concerned myself in the mining and smelting of metal in Australia, in Burma, India, Malaya, and Canada. I think it is just as well to remember that very great developments took place in the Empire and Commonwealth between the wars. But naturally it was the things which could readily find a market which were first developed, and the development was often held back of those colonial products which we found it very hard to market between the wars. Hon. Members will think of the soft fruit industry, and so forth. Do not let us forget that between the wars we added hundreds of millions of pounds of capital resources to the British Empire by a conscious scheme of development.
I do not think that anybody who has visited the principal territories of the British Empire could fail to be impressed by the unrivalled possibilities which they provide of building up particularly the raw materials of the world—and, I must say, quite frankly, at the same time of building up the comfort and prosperity and standards of life of the inhabitants; for these things should never be stated
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in isolation: they go together. To these unrivalled possibilities must be added another advantage, which is man-made and not natural, and that is, that in developing these resources we have the advantage of carrying on businesses with our countrymen who speak our own language. We have the advantage of having our contracts, our leases and agreements, construed in accordance with British law; and, in a large number of those territories, we express our profits and losses either in sterling or in currencies which are allied to sterling.
Last Thursday or Friday, in the foreign affairs Debate, I think that nearly every quarter of the House gave approval to the idea of forming an economic alliance in Western Europe. But to believe that is largely to reject—not permanently, but for the time being—the main theme of the Geneva Agreements. Not the least important part of that Debate, I thought, was the subject—I think originally discussed by the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning)—that the expansion of Empire trade is in no way exclusive or destructive of the expansion of trade in Western Europe, and that they are rather complementary.
I think on this point it is wrong to regard the expansion or greater unity of Western European trade as a merely European affair. Not by chance, but by the march of history, these countries, Holland, Belgium, France, and, if she is included, Portugal happen to be those countries which command almost all the colonial territories of the world, and it is by building up this idea of a Western European trading entity, and by the interchange of colonial trade, that we can see, I think, a way out of our economic difficulties. I can imagine that we could, within quite a short time, look forward to building up an entity by this combination which could live and breathe without gifts and loans and doles from the United States. To build up these entities demands discrimination now. It demands it now. What is the good of a document which says exactly the opposite? It sets up the principle of multilateralism and then knocks it down. What is really required is to set up the principle of preferences now and then to build up a financial equilibrium. Then we can proceed to freer and fuller trade.

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So we on this side of the House cannot but view with concern the erosion of Imperial Preferences. One of the necessary methods of developing the resources of the Empire is by the judicious application of Imperial Preferences. The United States have very drastic preferences for some of their overseas affiliations. The Phillipines are an instance. I do not think we should be asked at this time to describe as discriminatory preferences which apply amongst countries bound together by historical or legal or social or ethnographical ties. I do say that too much insistence now upon the distant objective, too much lip-service to what we all know is impracticable in the next few years, will prevent us from doing the thing which can make the wider objective which we see attainable. Never was it truer to say that the best is the enemy of the good, and, today our minds must be concerned chiefly with le sens du, praticable—a policy which is designed upon practical lines, and which is not so firmly fixed on the distant objectives, however agreeable they may be to our eyes.
Having said all this, we on this side of the House no less sincerely wish to see one day many-sided trade the rule and not the exception. We do not believe that restriction in the exchange of goods is the goal at all. We believe that for the time being discrimination must be used, first of all, to adjust the vast differences which exist in the trading accounts of the great nations; and secondly, to build up large areas which one day could live without doles from the United States. While we are taking these immediate measures, we must keep our eyes fixed far ahead and realise that discrimination is the road and not the end towards the fuller and freer trade which, if we can only keep at peace, will bring not only ourselves but the rest of the world back to conditions of abundance and prosperity. I think I have covered the whole of the ground expressed in the Amendment which I will now move.
I beg to move, in line 1, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question, and to add:
"while welcoming practicable measures for increasing the volume of international trade, regrets that His Majesty's Government should have placed a limit on Imperial Preferences and urges them not to subscribe prematurely to the principle of non-discrimination: and calls upon His Majesty's Government, whilst
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participating at the Havana Conference in measures directed towards the expansion of multilateral trade, to follow a realistic policy on the lines of the Marshall Plan and to develop trade both within the Empire and with the countries of Western Europe and their overseas territories, as a first step towards the expansion of international trade."
5.23 p.m.
Mr. M. F. Titteringtan: In making one or two observations upon the matter before the House, it will be quite obvious that I propose supporting the Motion moved by my hon. Friend in his very comprehensive and informative speech. I should like to follow the speech of the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), but I am precluded from doing so by circumstances, together with a sense of fairness to other colleagues who wish to speak in the short time at our disposal. Summarising his observations, it would appear that the right hon. Gentleman
"looks before and after and pines for what is not."
I epitomise his speech in those terms, leaving the rest to my more competent colleagues.
When this matter was mooted some time ago, I was rather struck by the very extensive nature of the matter which came under review, and to refresh my memory I referred to a question put to the President of the Board of Trade on 17th November last, by the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Sir P. Macdonald), who asked whether we should be supplied with the minutes of the meetings, conferences, deliberations and negotiations which followed so that we might have before us the evidence upon which the ultimate agreement was likely to be made. I was more than astonished when I read that my right hon. Friend said:
"I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is talking about the several hundred meetings we had in this country with the representatives of different industries first, or the several thousand meetings which took place in Geneva in preparation of the Agreement?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1947; Vol. 444, c. 826.]
I must say, I was staggered by the volume of work, the capacity, patience and infinite resources of those colleagues, who have been called upon to accept responsibilities in these negotiations, which those hundreds and thousands of meetings must have demanded. I make a point of that, because the report before us indicates that it is a statistical monument, both in

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weight and in survey of the matters under review. It is a very wide-reaching document, and Mr. Speaker has indicated that in order to ventilate the matter thoroughly the whole range of the subject under review forms a legitimate object for our interchange of opinions.
I shall be rather modest in the content of my speech and confine my remarks to observations on one of our major industries. In discussing the Geneva Agreement and its relation to the wool textile industry, it is as well to make one or two general comments to give the background. There has never been any question of the supremacy of the United Kingdom in its fully-manufactured exports, of woollen and worsted tissues and the like, especially in men's wear. The United Kingdom sets the standard for the world, and if there were no tariffs there would be no export problem. Even with the tariffs, our average exports of wool tissues during the years 1934 to 1938 were equal to the combined exports of our principal competitors—France, Germany, Japan, Belgium and Czechoslovakia. During the past 40 years our exports have shown a declining tendency, but that has been due to a reduction in the volume of international trade.
After the 1914–18 war, the growth of the wool textile industries in other countries showed a marked expansion. For example, we practically lost the Australian market; and Italy, from being an importing country, became an exporting country. The Japanese industry showed a marked expansion, and the same phenomenon is showing itself after this second world war—India being a case in point. So far as the export targets are concerned, the wool textile industry has been allotted one of the largest percentage increases, and is of special importance owing to the large proportion sent to hard currency markets. Perhaps the House will forgive me if I read a quotation from the "Board of Trade Journal" of December, 1947, under the heading "Importance of Textiles":
"You have heard a great deal recently about coal and power, iron and steel and transport, but not enough attention has been paid to the contribution which the textile industries can and must make to our economic recovery. Our economic supremacy in the 19th century was based more than anything else on a high output in the coal and textile industries. If we could produce and export as
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much coal and textiles today as we were doing before the 1914–18 war, we should be in a very much better position to import food and should have sufficient clothing for ourselves. Our influence for peace would be greatly re-enforced."
I think most of us concur in that. At the present time our exports of wool tops—that is, combed wool—are in excess of prewar exports—all these comparisons, of course, being in quantity—despite the lack of normal trade with Germany and other European countries. Exports of yarns are damped down because we must retain sufficient yarn to feed our own looms and knitting machines.
There is a bottleneck in the spinning section, which is only gradually being remedied. Exports of woollen and worsted tissues are about three-fourths of the prewar volume, reckoned on 1938, which was a poor year. Apart altogether from tariffs, the export trade is handicapped by various financial and exchange difficulties. Taking the exports of tops, yarns, tissues and carpets together, in the last quarter of 1946 the exports, on the basis adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for calculating his targets, were 89 per cent. of a poor prewar year. The target for mid-1948 is 146 per cent., and for the end of 1948, 182 per cent. So far as woollen and worsted tissues are concerned, the orders in hand, if they are fully taken up, will reach the target for mid-1948.
One has to look further ahead than present abnormal conditions, however, in assessing the effects of the Geneva Agreement. Of our six best prewar customers for wool piecegoods, two have not signed the Agreement, namely, Denmark and the Argentine. Denmark used to be our best customer per head of population, and far exceeded in importance many vastly greater countries. Her import duties, however, are comparatively light, and will be no obstacle to trade once financial matters have been straightened out. This year, we have sent to Denmark only about one-half the prewar exports of woollen and worsted tissues.
Exports to the Argentine are also affected by financial difficulties and are only a fraction of the prewar exports. Before the war, the Argentine was bracketed with Canada as our best customer of worsted tissues. Taking woollens and worsted together, Canada was our best prewar customer. At

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present, our exports to that country are not far below the prewar level. The reductions in tariffs in the Geneva Agreement are comparatively slight, and it is doubtful whether they will have any appreciable effect. To put it in another way, other factors will be of more importance than the reduction in tariffs. On the principle category of wool tissues, the prewar duty was 22½ per cent. ad valorem, plus 12 cents per lb.; the Geneva duty is zo per cent. ad valorem, plus 12 cents, per lb.
With regard to South Africa, there is no change in the tariff, but as it is only 5 per cent., there is no problem. Exports to South Africa are already nearly double the prewar figure. Our exports to New Zealand are about one half the prewar exports. The Geneva Agreement does not vary the tariffs, because they are reasonable—20 per cent. on the main items. There is a useful reduction in Australian duties, from 9d. per square yard, plus 20 per cent. ad valorem, to 6d. per square yard, plus 17½ per cent. ad valorem. When conditions become more normal, this should help us to regain partially a market which has been largely killed, but at present the Australian domestic manufacturer gets a subsidy on his wool purchases which is of considerable importance. It amounts to over 10d. per lb. of wool bought.
As a hard-currency market, the United States is of great importance. She was our fifth best customer for woollens before the war, and the sixth or seventh for worsteds. There would be an almost limitless market but for her very heavy tariffs. The import duty on raw wool has been reduced by 25 per cent. under the Geneva Agreement. In addition to carrying forward this reduction to the tariffs on manufactured goods, there has been a further lowering. In the main category, the new rates are 37½ cents per lb., plus 25 per cent. ad valorem, against 50 cents per lb. and 35 to 40 per cent. ad valorem. This is a very acceptable reduction which should stimulate trade. It should be remembered, however, that the lowered duty is still very substantial, and that there is a proviso which allows the United States to increase the ad valorem duty to 45 per cent. on any fabrics which exceed by weight 5 per cent. of the average domestic production. While this leaves
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room for approximately a doubling of present exports, it sets an upper limit on expansion. At present, our exports are about the same as before the war. Some importers in the United States are expecting that the quantity of British wool piece-goods imported in 1948, will be double the quantity imported in 1947.
In this connection, a most valuable report on the United States market has been issued by the British Wool Textile Mission, headed by Mr. Munro, which has recently returned from the States. This gives some extremely useful information and guidance to the British exporter. I need only quote two sentences:
"British woollen and worsted cloth receives nationwide acknowledgement from both sexes and all classes of society as the world's best—and this in a country which enthuses in superlatives. This reputation has been achieved, not by advertising, but by sheer merit and honest trading, and is the sheet-anchor of our trade in the United States."
One may sum up the position by saying that whilst the Geneva Agreement is welcome as a move in the right direction, it is not likely to be of great benefit to the export trade in wool textiles. One must be thankful for small mercies, however, and for that reason the Geneva Agreement is a Godsend. Between the two wars, the industry was more concerned about resisting increases in tariffs, and the turn in the tide is significant. The important point is that though the benefits are not substantial, the trade has been presented with reductions in tariffs, whereas its prewar problem was to prevent increases in tariffs.
The general statement which was given today covered a wide field of endeavour and achievement, together with a declaraticn of aims and intentions. The immediate practical issue is to keep the maximum amount of international trade going. The whole commercial position of this country over the last 150 years has been built up on the supposition that trade would be multilateral and that we should not have to bother whether our trade with each country exactly balanced. If we cannot re-establish that position in the long run, the outlook for us is very serious. We hope to establish a completely multilateral system.
Mr. Boothby: Can the hon. Member say how he expects to conduct that multilateral trade with the Soviet Union?
Mr. Titterington: The hon. Member has asked a very far-reaching question, and it is open to him to make his contribution to the Debate. So far as I am concerned, there is no barrier of race or clime to the textile trade. The textile trade does not carry with it any warlike activity and it is not contrary to international relationships. I am talking in Yorkshire phraseology. Had time, opportunity and courtesy permitted me to range round the subject already intimated in my hon. Friend's speech, no one would have been more delighted than I to have taken the opportunity. But I have regard to the fact that other hon. Members have to make their observations on other aspects of the Geneva Agreement.
May I finish on an idealistic note? We are now striving to resume cross-fertilisation of cultures and civilisation that man's achievements represent over the raw materials of nature, over social forces and over technical and scientific obstacles. The strivings of those who are responsible for the Geneva Agreement must be approved, and, in the symbolism associated with Geneva, I hope that it will be an action to heal the wounds of a war-stricken world.
5.41 p.m.
Mr. Odey: In the 1601 Parliament, it is recorded, one, Zachariah Locke, rose to speak and for very fear stood still, and after a time sat down. While I fully share Zachariah Locke's apprehension, I will do my best, with the kind encouragement which this House always gives to those endeavouring to make a maiden speech, to avoid following his example, at least not before I have made a few remarks on this Motion.
As a subject for my maiden speech, I naturally looked for some matter upon which I had some slight knowledge. I selected the Geneva Agreement because in 1944, I happened to be one of the representatives of the British National Committee of the International Chamber of Commerce. The hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. Bennett) was also a representative, and we attended the International Business Conference in Rye in the State of New York. This was not a Government conference, but was sponsored by various leading trade organisations in the United States. So far as the
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other countries which came from overseas—and there were 52 of them represented at the conference—were concerned, most of their representatives were selected by the International Chamber of Commerce. Although it was not a Government Conference, it was quite certain that the United States Government took a very keen interest in its deliberations. It is fair to say that most of the subsequent negotiations that have led up to the Geneva Conference have been influenced by the discussions that took place at Rye.
I mention this because it was already apparent at that conference that among informed American opinion there was a growing realisation in the United States that trade is a two-way traffic, and that, if the United States was to embark upon a great postwar expansion of its export trade, it would be necessary, if American exports were to be paid for, that imports into the United States should be stepped up, and that the easiest method of achieving this object was for the United States to agree to a general lowering of their tariffs. The American business man, who has a very great influence with the United States Government, is not unnaturally given to seek for any concession a quid pro quo. In return, therefore, for a reduction in the United States tariffs, many of which were very high, the United States Government pressed for two things. One was that other countries should agree to make a simultaneous reduction in tariffs, not necessarily pro rata, but, nevertheless, in a general downward direction; and the second was—and this is the important point so far as we are concerned—that the British in particular should be asked to agree to a reduction in Imperial Preference.
In 1944, we could not foresee how immeasurably worse our economic position would become in 1948. We knew that the whole question of our balance of payments would be very acute when the war was over, but we could not foresee that the hon. Members opposite would be sitting where they are today, nor could we foresee that the energies and the whole attention of His Majesty's Government during the vital two years immediately after the war, would be almost entirely devoted to schemes for nationalisation, while the economic position of our country steadily deteriorated.

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The point therefore, which puzzles hon. Members on this side of the House is that this insistance by our American friends on a reduction in Imperial Preference has come at a time when, owing to our economic difficulties, it may well be desirable both from our own and, indeed, from the United States point of view, not to reduce, but actually to increase Imperial Preference. We must remind our American friends that they have in the United States the largest and most highly-protected trading area on the face of the earth, and it is the very essence of a satisfactory system of multilateral trade that the nations participating in that trade should have recovered their economic strength, so that there will be general confidence in trading conditions and in the ability of each and every one of these countries, to pay for the goods which they buy. The whole point is that at the present time there is no such confidence.
The first requisite is that we should build up in the British Commonwealth, and, indeed, in the whole of the sterling area, a trading area which has at its command sufficient natural resources to enable us to trade with the United States on reasonably level terms. The Foreign Secretary in one of those flashes of inspiration which come to great men has suggested a customs union for the Commonwealth. It is a suggestion that might very naturally come to anyone approaching a problem of this kind with an entirely fresh mind. Those who have watched the Dominions nurse their secondary industries behind high tariff walls over a number of years will know full well that such a plan is impracticable, or at any rate, unacceptable. The only instrument that we have to achieve our purpose in this matter is Imperial Preference, and the great objection to the Geneva Agreement is that by committing ourselves to a policy of reducing Imperial Preference, we are weakening one of the chief means lying to our hand by which we may achieve our economic recovery.
If I might make one final point, it is this. In the 19th century—and as a dutiful back bencher on this occasion I might repeat some of the arguments which my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) has already made, and I am sure the House will bear with me as I do so
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we led the world in international trade. We were, and indeed still are, the world's largest importers. In spite of that, in the 19th century we had a large favourable balance of trade. We spent that favourable balance by exporting our capital which we used to develop and fructify every country in the world where our trade penetrated.
Today it is the United States which has the largest favourable trade balance that any country has ever had. The United States are not large importers, and with their great natural resources and their great productive capacity, it is difficult to see that they ever will be. In consequence, we shall never arrive at a condition satisfactory for multilateral trade until the way has been made clear for the private American investor to invest his capital overseas. At present there is practically nowhere where he can invest his money with any confidence. Until that day dawns when capital can once again flow freely, Members on this side of the House will cling to Imperial Preference which has served us so well in the past, and pursue bilateral agreements which, while more limited in scope, are nevertheless more productive of immediate results and more in line with the realities of our present position.
May I thank the House for their kind indulgence to one who is not only new to this House but, indeed, new to politics? I trust the House will forgive my intrusion into the Debate on this weighty subject, which might better have been left to the experts, but it does enable me to dispose of my maiden speech. I can now follow Zachariah Locke's example with some relief and sit down.
5.51 p.m.
Mr. Ronald Mackay: It falls to my lot, and a very pleasurable one it is, to offer my congratulations to the hon. Member for Howdenshire (Mr. Odey) for the very excellent maiden speech we have just heard. I am sure I express the views of everyone in this House when I say we look forward to listening to him on many other occasions because of his experience, for we know that it will be well worth while listening to what he has to say. My pleasure is added to by the fact that he happens to represent a constituency which adjoins my own, and that I went to the utmost trouble to make certain that

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he was not returned. However, Howdenshire and certain parts of Yorkshire saw to it that our efforts were not successful, and I am glad to have the opportunity of being here to hear the hon. Member's maiden speech.
Having said those few congratulatory remarks, I should like to offer my congratulations to the Secretary for Overseas Trade, because of the way in which he has dealt with the document which we are considering this afternoon. Having said that, I want to follow the example of the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) and try to raise the issue which we have to consider into a much wider sphere. I hope by the time I have finished I will have convinced hon. Members on this side of the House that the Government should think again and withdraw this Motion. I say that not altogether for the reasons which are actuating hon. Members opposite, but for reasons which I am going to put fonvard in a moment. I hope the Government will reconsider the position in the light of some of the things that have been said recently, and will realise how contradictory their whole policy on this subject is.
The Motion stands on the Order Paper in the names of the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they should be here because this is the most serious Debate that this House could have. It is ridiculous to spend two days debating foreign affairs and a short time on the equally important international economic foreign policy of this country without which nothing that was said last Thursday and Friday could ever be implemented. I feel very strongly on this matter, because there was never such a serious economic period as the present. We are losing probably £10 million worth of gold a week and the economic position of this country is tied up with the whole issues raised in this Motion. That economic position is a serious one and one which we cannot get through with the measures that the Government are suggesting at the present time.
I want, for reasons which I am going to put shortly, to ask the Government to reconsider their whole position in this matter. It is sheer hypocrisy for Members on the Front Bench—and I wish the senior Members were there because they are the people whom I wish to indict—to say that we are going to get out of our
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troubles with a successful export drive, when everyone knows that the export drive cannot succeed to the degree or extent necessary to balance the gap or even put us on a proper way to recovery. It is on those lines that I ask the House to reconsider this matter. We were told in the old days by Bacon—the great Bacon as F. E. Smith would have said—that the trouble with politicians and statesmen is in their minds, in that their minds are so full of contradictions. Here we have a Government which on Thursday and Friday of last week asked us to think in terms of a Western Union and on the following Thursday asks us to ratify an agreement which destroys the whole basis of a Western Union and the conception on which their foreign policy is to be based.
I want to raise other matters in this Debate. I am sorry I cannot continue to please my Friends opposite because one of the illusions that they must face is the colossal illusion of Imperial Preference. I am not arguing—and I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will not think of trying to argue—against increased Empire trade, for the more trade we get with the countries in the Dominions the better. Is it not time we looked at the facts and realised, in the first place, that more than half of Britain's investments are in countries outside the Empire and that more than half of our trade goes outside the Empire and has done for the last 30 years? It is ridiculous to go on arguing that by Imperial Preference we will increase the production or the productivity of the world.
I know hon. Gentlemen opposite will tell us of the great things which have come to Britain and the Empire since the Ottawa Agreement. I ask them sincerely to face the issue, because unless we get down to the realities of the fundamental economic problems comprised in Empire trade, we will not make an adequate contribution to the solution of the problem. Professor Hancock, in a three-volume study of Empire and Commonwealth trade, has spent about 400 pages analysing the development of British trade as a result of the Ottawa Imperial Preference Agreement, and in doing so he has made it crystal clear that the Ottawa Agreement had no effect in increasing the trade of the world or in providing greater trade even for Great

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Britain. I will just mention one or two facts and then pass on, because the subject is so big that a lot has to be said—
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Surely the hon. Gentleman will agree that in the six years after we adopted the policy of Imperial Preference in the Ottawa Agreement, unemployment in this country went down by 1,500,000? Therefore, it is incorrect for the hon. Member to say that Imperial Preference did not increase the trade of this country, for only by increasing the trade could we have had a reduction in unemployment.
Mr. Mackay: I appreciate the question, but I would ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman and other hon. Members to listen to the reply. It is true that trade went up after 1931, but the trade of the world went up at a higher rate. The trade of this country did not go up as a result of Ottawa at such a high rate as world trade. Therefore it cannot be argued on that fact alone—[HON. MEMBERS: "Look at the figures."] Hon. Gentlemen should bear these facts in mind. If they take the trade figures from 1929 onwards, they will see that the rate of increase in Britain's trade and the Empire trade was greater prior to Ottawa than afterwards. The rise had already started. Hon. Gentlemen opposite shake their heads, but if they look at the facts they will see that the greatest increases after Ottawa were in the non-preference items.
I have taken the trouble to go through the whole of the Ottawa schedules with the different countries of the world. We may write a letter to "The Times" and set out the figures of Empire trade and of Great Britain in relation to the Dominions after Ottawa, but if we add the trade of the Empire together, which no one does, we see that Britain lost in trade in the years following the Agreement. British Scandinavian trade increased. Australian trade with Japan increased. Whereas in the depression years she took a large number of the cheaper, in the monetary sense, and smaller horse-powered motorcars from this country, when Australia was rising out of the depression she took the American cars. Hon. Gentlemen should consider the problem of Canada. Does anyone suggest that Imperial Preference will
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get any more trade with Canada? Canada gets 70 per cent. of her imports from the United States. Let us take 1938 as against 1937. The trade of Great Britain with Canada went down 20 per cent. and has been going down since the war. Why must we go on with this illusion? One understands patriotic motives. Words have certain connotations which people are apt to accept without thinking about them, and we go on talking about Empire trade without analysing the position. If hon. Gentlemen look at the Australian and New Zealand positions and see the growth of industrialisation there, they will see no future for the economic position of this country in terms of Imperial Preference.
The second factor I must deal with, because it is becoming so much talked about, is the problem of the two-way traffic bilateral agreements. Many people think we can solve our problems by bilateral agreements with other countries. I will not deny that if we can make arrangements with the Russians on the lines that we are doing, that is so much the better—one does not deny that for one moment—but if hon. Gentlemen will look at the figures, they will see that if we were to go through with bilateral trade to its logical conclusion, which means to 60 or 70 per cent. of our trade, we should lose two-fifths of our trade. Mr. McDougall went into the position in the "Economic Journal" some months ago, taking the figures for 1930. He had two tables. He showed what our trade was with the countries with whom we had favourable balances and with the countries with which we had unfavourable balances. He came to the conclusion that £250 million of our trade in that year depended on multilateral trade, the whole of which we must lose. I do not deny that if we go in for bilateral agreements some trade will be increased—that is true—but it is the conception I want to get at.
I now come to the third factor. I will not read the document, but it asks this country to go back to multilateral trade. I ask the President of the Board of Trade to tell us whether he really thinks multilateral trade can ever be a success again in the 20th century. The Government have one foot in the 19th century and one in the 20th century if they think multilateral trade will ever be a success again. It will not be a success because the trading conditions have so enormously

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changed. We had that from the hon. Member for Howdenshire in his maiden speech. America has two-thirds of the manufactures and three-quarters of the investment of the world. We have been speaking this afternoon about the fact that we are losing trade in other parts of the world.
In the days when we were a country with a surplus of exports over imports, we were able to invest abroad to an extent to which the United States is unable and unwilling to do it today. If we compare the British position in 1914 with the American position in 1948, we find that the British export trade was greater than British savings, but today American savings are infinitely greater than her exports. The American economy is in competition with ours. With her enormous production, she is in a position to compete with us in a degree to which we can never stand up in the future. The facts are that if we put both our imports and our exports at 100 before the first world war in 1913, then by 1939 our imports are 125 and our exports 62. The reason is the growth of industrialisation in other parts of the world.
The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), who is unable to take part in the Debate, gave me some figures which I will quote because they are so terribly interesting at this time. He has taken the trouble to write to a lot of agencies in 50 countries of the world. He grouped the different kinds of goods this country could sell in those places, and asked them to say whether the market was good or bad for those goods. In the field of capital goods, particularly machinery, engineering equipment and rolling stock, which is obviously a field where we would expect things to be fairly good, we found the market closed in one place and quite all right in 34. In the field of coal the market is good, but we shall probably not be able to get the coal in sufficient quantities. In motorcars, 20 countries closed down on us. Only the other day I saw a Standard motorcar with left-hand drive. I made inquiries and was told that it was one of the cars which had gone to the docks for export, but the country which had ordered it did not now want it and therefore it had come back to the home market, which in one way is a good thing. In the case of the cheap ordinary consumption goods, in most of the countries to which the inquiry was directed it was
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found that there was no market or that the market was hardening. That is the problem we have to face.
Hon. Gentlemen have been discussing the question from the angle of international trade. I wish they would split it into its proper components. Does the President of the Board of Trade really consider that we have any reason to think that in the next 10 or 15 years world trade in manufactures will increase? The whole tendency of the 20 years before the war was to decrease. The figures are clear. Between 1900 and 1939 the production of manufactures in the world went up 100 per cent. and the trade in them went down. It was built up in the most industrial countries of the world, America, Britain, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland and Sweden. The trade went down 20 per cent. These are the facts. Obviously the trade in food and raw materials will go up, but, with the development of industrialisation, the trade in manufactures will not.
It is useless to come along with a bagatelle of a document like this and say that we will snip off something here and something there in trade and to think that that will reorganise industry, international trade, or the economic position of this great country. If we look at the figures, it is quite obvious that the amount of subject matter involved is very small both in America and here. I ask the Government really to reconsider this matter. We are living in a changing world. In the nineteenth century trade flowed because Britain ran the world. She ran the world with money, with police, with goods, and because there was free movement of population, without which we cannot trade, with all those things she was able always to see that the countries who wanted to buy from her had the money with which to pay. We did not realise in those days that if we equipped all the countries of the world with capital goods and other things, the time would come when they would want to make their own and not bother about us. Nor did we realise, which is much more important in many ways, that as time went on, this position must inevitably change.
That is the position with which we are confronted today. It is interesting to note that the term "balance of pay-

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merits" does not appear in economic literature prior to 1914. It is not there for the reason that there was never a problem, because there was one monetary system for the world. That has broken down. I do not think any serious economist today will suggest that America can take the part Britain played, partly because of her enormous size, strength, power and productivity. It is not a question of making a lot of countries trade with themselves, one being perhaps the senior or a bit bigger than the others. America is a Colossus but, for reasons I have given before, cannot take this part.
Therefore, we are in a completely changing world in which multilateral trade, bilateral trade, Imperial Preference, tariff bargains and tariff agreements have no part whatsoever, and it is about time that the Government woke up quite seriously and gave up this complete hypocrisy and humbug of trying to base their economic international policy on a series of ideas and doctrines that are completely out of date. We want to increase international trade, we want to lower trade barriers, but there is only one way to do it in the twentieth century, and that is by extending the area in which we trade because it is a century of mass production and large areas of trade. The future for us is in Europe, but it is with the British Commonwealth and the Empire too. Yet this afternoon it has been said, "If you would only develop Empire trade and raw materials, you could solve Britain's problem." Yet the Colonial countries do not provide more than 2½ per cent. of the raw materials of the world.
Europe is the biggest trading area in the world. In the five years before the war, out of a world trade of 10 billion dollars, Europe provided seven billion dollars in manufactures. If you list the raw materials of Western Europe, of the 16 countries plus Western Germany which came to Paris, and compare them with those of the United States of America, in the main Western Europe plus the British Commonwealth has as great resources in raw materials as has the United States of America. However, she has not got the markets of the United States because there are 17 barriers; she has not got mass production because there are 17 different countries. International Harvester came
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over the other day to establish factories, one in the Berlin area, one in France and one in Britain, when one factory would have reduced considerably the cost of production.
So I ask the Government in all earnestness to reconsider the economic policy indicated in this Motion. I ask them to realise that Britain's changing position in the 20th century, of which the war is only a part factor, means that we must adopt an entirely different economic policy, that the principles on which 20th century economics will be determined are mass production and standardisation in large areas of trade. Everything said last Thursday and Friday is sheer empty rhetoric unless specific attempts are made to bring the nations of Western Europe together, not only into a customs union but into a real federation. When will we learn that economic problems and conditions as they exist now require different political forms? When you go to your tailor because your suit does not fit, he does not say, "You are too fat for your suit, you must cut your body down." You say, "Please cut the suit." In the same way we have to change our political organisation. The old conception of the sovereign state has gone. That conception is as dead as the dodo, as is the policy contained in this Motion. That has gone for good, and I suggest that we tackle national sovereignty properly.
The right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) said the other day that he welcomed everything the Foreign Secretary had said because he had advocated it ever since M. Briand put it forward. The Lord help us if that happens. M. Briand's memorandum, if the right hon. Member will refresh his memory of it, excluded customs unions to start with because that would be in conflict with the principles of the League of Nations. It went further and said that in no conditions must there be any interference with the political sovereignty of any country. It is tragic if, in times like these, after two world wars, we find that the Government have not learned the lessons that those two wars should have taught us. It is tragic if we have to continue trying to live with economic institutions such as this Motion provides for, which are completely out of date. It is tragic if, after all the suffering that has taken place, and after all the magnificent

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rhetoric we heard during the war about the things for which we were fighting, we cannot get our minds clear enough to analyse the economic problems with which we are confronted in the 20th century and take drastic and urgent steps to solve them.
I implore the Government to reconsider this matter. It is just not good enough to go on with these out-of-date ideas. People in this country who support the Labour Party will not support the Geneva Agreement as being the best this Government can do. The Government have shown great imagination in India and Burma and elsewhere, but in this respect we are suffering from an enormous hangover from the Coalition Government, a hangover in which, because of the articles in the Lend-Lease agreement, there has not been sufficient consideration of the economic factors determining the 20th century. It is idle to talk of Western union if it means the Briand plan. It is equally idle to talk of a United Europe if it means a getting together with peoples within the United Nations but not really tackling the problem of sovereignty and not building up a federation of Western Europe in a proper way. It is completely contradictory to come down to the House and say that now we are going into a Western Union, and at the same time say that we are continuing the ideas of multilateral trade and so on.
At the present time we have a Minister going over to Washington to take part in the United Nations talks. An hon. Member on this side of the House earlier today paid tribute to the amount of time spent in preparing the Agreement which we are discussing today. I wish the time of these gentlemen was being better spent. The times are too serious. The likelihood that within the next three or four months this country may be facing external bankruptcy is far too serious for us to have Ministers trotting off to the United Nations Organisation, which is quite out of date, as shown in the International Fund and Bretton Woods schemes.
We have to take much more drastic steps. We have to get our minds much clearer in order to build a trading area within which we can live. The trading area which I commend to the Government is a real attempt at a federation of Western Europe. Let the Foreign Sec-
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retary show the imagination he showed when Mr. Marshall made his offer in the first place. Let him recall the Paris Conference, with a specific proposal for a federation of Western Europe, giving them power over customs and currency, external affairs and industrial matters. We would not have had the terrible episodes of last week-end if only this Government had given the lead to the countries of Europe to come together and form a currency for Western Europe. However, we shall not get that, unless we have a common Government. That is the lesson Washington taught the Americans at the time of the American War of Cession, the lesson which any student of political science knows.
The suggestion I want to make in all seriousness—at a time when our economic problems are what our military ones were at Dunkirk, at a time when every Cabinet Minister must be worried about the balance of payments and the dripping away of gold, and the sure knowledge which must be common to all of us, that this cannot go on beyond two or three months—is that we take steps at once to get a political federation of Western Europe in which we can plan the resources of that great continent. The Marshall Plan can tide us over for about three years provided we plan and organise the resources of Western Europe. By doing that in a federation of Western Europe, and not by a bauble of the kind given us today, this country will show the way to prosperity.
6.20 p.m.
Mr. Boothby: The House has listened to what all will agree has been a very brilliant speech, very brilliantly delivered. I agree with some parts of it; but, as the hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) will anticipate, not with others. He said that the Government were suffering from a hangover from the Coalition Government. I think they are suffering from a hangover from Lord Snowden much more than the Coalition Government, and from the mediaeval nonconformist, Liberal tradition, which has done us such unlimited harm in the past; and, if they do not slough it off, will do us such unlimited harm in the future.
I do not know who wrote the long, and to my mind ridiculous, rigmarole which the Secretary for Overseas Trade read

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out at the beginning of this Debate. But, I will do him the credit of saying that I think he could have had little part in it, as he is much too intelligent for that. As an old Parliamentary hand, I may perhaps be allowed to give him the tip to tell the boys not to pull that one over him again. It is not good enough. He must do better next time; and be much shorter. I felt very sorry for him at the end of his speech, because I began to realise that he was himself realising how boring it was; and I do not think that, towards the end, he believed a word of it himself. We all wish him well and I hope he will not allow anything of that kind to happen in the future.
I wish to say a sentence or two about the Geneva Trade Agreements, which we are by way of discussing although the hon. Member for North-West Hull did not refer to them at all. I do not blame him for that, because they are a very dull affair and he made a much more interesting speech. The concessions involved do not amount to very much, 60-odd millions on our imports, and 40-odd millions on our exports, in both cases less than 10 per cent. of the total trade before the war. The total gain to us on the dollar-earning concessions cannot conceivably amount to more than a fortnight's dollar deficit, at the present rate; an estimate which is confirmed by all economists. It is on the whole very small beer. The implications of the Agreements worry me much more than the actual concessions which have either been given or obtained. The Secretary for Overseas Trade gave the impression in his speech that they were designed to maintain full employment in the various countries. On the contrary, it is rather significant that this full employment business in the general agreement is nowhere mentioned in these Geneva Tariff Agreements. The House should be aware of that.
However, there are certain things which are very definitely mentioned. First of all long-term reciprocal trade agreements are definitely ruled out. We are only allowed to make short-term agreements, subject to review every year. Secondly, preferential arrangements of every sort and kind are ruled out. We can, of course, have a total Customs Union; but where are we going to get a complete and total Customs Union in the next 10 years anywhere in the world? The only way of ultimately
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getting a complete and total Customs Union is by preferential arrangements in the first stage; because no national economy could make all the necessary adjustments in a short time. Therefore, the only method of approach to total Customs Unions is preferential arrangements. Finally, and in this I agree with the hon. Member for North-West Hull, all regional trade agreements are absolutely ruled out; and that is the most disastrous and tragic feature of the whole business.
One or two things have not been outlawed by these Agreements. Discrimination in favour of primary products has not been outlawed; and neither have general subsidies nor tied loans been outlawed. Some of us, I think, can hazard a guess why they have not been outlawed; but do not let us be under any illusion, all these things will aggravate, rather than tend to remove, the existing disequilibrium between the new world and the old. Accompanied by the Bretton Woods ban on rciprocal payments agreements, which would automatically have provided the finance for international trade, these Geneva agreements prevent, absolutely, any attempt to establish the trading areas, which the hon. Member for North-West Hull so ardently desires, capable of development on the basis of long-term plans. I challenge the hon. Member to deny that.
This Geneva Agreement absolutely rules out the creation and development of trading areas of any kind. Anyone who wants a trading area had better not vote for them, but join us in the Lobby tonight. I hope the Labour Party will, for once, be honest in its own beliefs. All possibility of increasing our exports by the mutual exchange of goods with a group of nations in a given area has been rendered impossible; and I defy anyone, including the President of the Board of Trade, to deny that fact. Thus the appalling disequilibrium between the new world and the old has, for the time being, been perpetuated.
This Geneva Agreement is another faltering step along the road back to the international anarchy of the 19th century, which we first took at Bretton Woods, and along which we have been remorselessly driven ever since by the stick of poverty, and the carrot of dollars. That is the road on which this Government has been driven. I cannot say that they have

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led us along it, because they have not led us anywhere. It is called multilateralism; but is in fact, and was intended to be, the establishment of absolute economic domination by the United States of America in the trading areas of the British Empire and of Western Europe. Once again we have abandoned the substance of planned reciprocal trade in terms of goods for the shadow of free multilateral trade in terms of dollars.
Mr. Warbey: If the hon. Member is opposed to multilateralism, why is he supporting the Opposition Amendment in favour of it?
Mr. Boothby: If the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) will allow me to develop my argument, he will see what I am getting at. If anyone doubts it, let him look at what Mr. Clayton said in March, 1946:
"Britain will withdraw from Bretton Woods if she does not get the Loan. She will then expand her agreements all round the world. If I were sitting in that position of power in Britain, that is exactly what I should do."
The other day Mr. Clayton said he now saw not only an all-round reduction, but the total elimination and abandonment of the whole Imperial Preference system, quite soon. The hon. Member for North-West Hull does not believe in Imperial Preference very much, although he was good enough to include the Empire in the trading area he had in mind. I do not agree with him; and will not go into the facts and figures he quoted, because I think he distorted them.
I want now to address an argument to hon. Members opposite, quite a serious argument. Apparanetly they are reluctant to face up to the fact that the economic conditions which gave rise to the existing nation-states of Europe, including Great Britain, have gone for ever. The era of cheap food, dear manufactures, empty spaces and free migration, is over; and, as the hon. Member truly say the era of mass production and large economic units has arrived. We cannot escape from that fact. Year by year the volume of our imports has steadily overtaken the volume of our exports. That process is still going on. It is a terrifying process, unless some very drastic steps are taken to alter it. We used to produce 30 per cent. of the world's manufactures, but we produce today only a tenth. We used
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to have two-fifths of the world's trade in manufactured goods, and today we have less than one-fifth. Our industries, by and large, are obsolescent; largely the fault of the war, but not entirely, because in any event we are no longer, in isolation, an effective economic unit in the modern world. That is what both sides of the House have to face up to. We are not an effective economic unit in a world which demands large economic units.
Finally, and this is another matter to which we are reluctant to face up, we are no longer a creditor, but a debtor nation. It is rough, if one has been not only a creditor nation but a very rich one for a couple of centuries, to wake up one morning and find that one is "bust." We have not yet adjusted ourselves to that fact. The truth is that we are, at the moment, a wholly artificial economic community created by circumstances which no longer exist. To a greater or lesser degree that goes for every other nation in Western Europe. The President of the Board of Trade and other hon. Members know as well as I do that neither Britain nor France, Belgium, Holland, Portugal and Norway can hope to stand up in isolation and compete on level terms in free world markets with the modernized mass production of the United States of America.
Three alternatives confront this country today, and the President of the Board of Trade must face up to this issue: Either a gradual economic strangulation brought about by the enormous disequilibrium between the new world and the old, with blocked currencies, passports, visas, tariff restrictions and the rest of it; or, secondly, the absorption of Continental Europe into the suffocating totalitarian unity of the Communist closed economy; or, thirdly, as the hon. Member for North-West Hull said, the creation in Western Europe and the Colonial Dependencies of Western Europe, a trading area large enough to enable us all to breathe and live in the modern world. There are the three alternatives which, in the next 10 years, confront this country. There are no others. I want the last. I am the first to admit that it involves the planning of production and trade; but I say also that it involves discrimination; and I suggest that hon. Gentlemen opposite have to face up to that.

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Some intellectual Socialists have yet to discover a valid intellectual basis for their present position, and for the things they say and do. The party opposite and the Government have gone far to abolish competition in this country; and they proclaim every day that they want to go much further down that road. They have also greatly increased, to a large extent by the nationalisation of industry, the rigidity of the wage structure in this country, because in these great nationalised industries wages are decided not by the pull of the market, the urge to profit on the one hand and fear of bankruptcy on the other, and the power of organised labour, as they used to be. There is no limit to the wages that can now be paid to the workers in the nationalised industries except the total ruin and bankruptcy of the country as a whole. In these circumstances, we are bound to have a much more rigid wage structure than under the old competitive system of free enterprise.
But in order to get dollars at any cost, and spend them as quickly as possible on "tobacco for the boys," the Government have deliberately tied the British national economy to the greatest deliberately unplanned economy in the world; and have subjected this country to the brutal test and fearful rigours of ruthless competitive international trade. At the same time as they have been abolishing the competitive system inside this country and tying up the wage structure, they have flung us into the icy seas of ruthless, competitive, international trade; and, in spite of the warnings some of us gave, for a brief and embarrassing moment, of free convertibility—but that did not last long.
I ask hon. Members opposite, and on this side of the House, too, to face up to the rather unpalatable fact that this country is no longer competitive in free markets in the world of today. They have helped to make it so. Yet in this vital field of international trade, of all others, they have taken us back to the price system which at home they condemn so much. We have to produce cheaply or starve. That is the policy and the philosophy to which, In their desperate search for dollars, they have committed us. I say it is absolute insanity—I have said it before. I saw that "The Times" this morning, in a leading article, quoted
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with approval a sentence from a pamphlet called "Design for Recovery";
"Empire trade will depend on Britain making the goods which the Empire wants at a price which the Empire is prepared to pay."
Naturally, my friends who are responsible for that pamphlet would not expect me to agree altogether with them on that point. I cannot help quoting, in answer, from a Socialist newspaper, the editor of which I see sitting opposite me. It is called "Tribune." A little time ago, "Tribune" said:
"This is the Gradgrind philosophy, which recognises no bonds between men beyond the 'cash nexus,' with its all-exclusive morality of 'buy in the cheapest and sell in the dearest market.' A philosophy which aims at a business system without friendship, loyalties, or any common purpose—a system in which money power counts and nothing else."
On this issue, I am on the side of "Tribune." But are hon. Gentlemen opposite? Are the Government? One would not think so from the way they are carrying on at the present time. Take G. D. H. Cole, quite an intelligent chap, who is a great friend of hon. Members opposite. He said the other day:
"It is impracticable to plan for really cheap production under modern conditions except on the foundation of a home market much larger than single European States can command."
I think he is right.
"The need is for unified planning, over the widest possible supra-national area, both of production and of exchanges between the combined industrial area and the countries which are mainly primary producers. … Trade, as well as the planning of production, will have to be organized trade."
What does the Geneva Tariff Agreement do to organise trade? Finally, I quote the hon. Member for North-West Hull himself. Does he remember this?
"The ideas of multilateral trade belong to the nineteenth century. The ideas of bilateral trade belong to the autarchy between the two wars. What we have got to do is to find and organize a large enough trading area within which we can live."
I anticipate his speeches before he makes them, by reading what he writes—and he writes in a number of papers. That is a compliment. I study the minds of hon. Members opposite—so far as it is possible. I never find that the things that they think are easily translated into action.
I suggest to them that, if they really believe what they write and say, they cannot go on paying lip service to this

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ideal of free multilateral trade in the twentieth century. It is hypocritical humbug, and profound intellectual dishonesty. It is also crazy to preach that, at the very moment when the United States are at last beginning to realise the kind of world in which we live—and which they will have to lead—just at the moment when all this is dawning upon them. It is most significant that the Marshall Plan comes forward without any conditions attached. That is highly encouraging. Yet hon. Members opposite go on paying this lip service to these ridiculous and antediluvian ideas. The Chancellor of the Exchequer went so far as to say, the other day, that our first and most important objective in 1948 is "to earn more dollars." I say to the Chancellor that the first and most important objective for 1948 is for this island to produce more food, more coal and more steel; to bring our industries, which are obsolete, up to date; and to free ourselves from abject and permanent economic bondage to the United States, by developing the limitless resources of our Colonial Empire, and by expanding reciprocal trade both with the Dominions and with Western Europe.
To sum up. So long as any major currency like dollars remains in short supply the adoption and application of non-discrimination by other countries must involve a contraction in the total volume of international trade, and aggravate the grave disequilibrium between the New and the Old Worlds. That is what is now happening; and, as a result of the agreement we are discussing tonight, will continue to happen. The continuing pressure of the over-balanced American export surplus must force the industrial exporting countries outside the United States either into competitive deflation, or competitive devaluation, or both. That has already begun. It started in Paris the other day. It is the inevitable result of Bretton Woods, the Loan Agreement, and the Geneva Agreement which we have just signed. Do not blame the French. They are practical realists. They know they have got to do this to save their economy. If they kick Bretton Woods down the gutter I am delighted, because it is ridiculous. It is like putting a thermometer into the sea in the hope of changing the temperature.
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The day of the small nation has gone, politically, strategically and economically. Our only hope lies in the development of closer economic relations with the Empire and with Europe. We need not ask in this Debate about the exact method. It is sufficient to assert that regional economic organisation and integration is essential if any country is to survive in the 20th Century, outside the United States of America and the Soviet Union. This involves preferential arrangements covering not only tariffs, but also reciprocal payments agreements; and we have once again specifically pledged ourselves not to make them. The breakdown of the international political order, the new found supremacy of the primary producer—one of the most important developments since the war—and the development of international industrial economies of world-wide scope, have produced a crisis of Western civilisation. It will not be solved by an attempt to go back to the economic system of the 19th century.
6.42 p.m.
Mr. Norman Smith: This Debate has taken the form of a procession of misfits. I am a misfit myself, because I find it necessary, not only to speak, but also to vote against my Government. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) is not more happy than I am. He voted for the Second Reading of the Bank of England Bill. He, too, has no use for multilateral trade. He had to listen this afternoon to the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) who, when he led up to his climax, could think of nothing better than to look ahead a few years to a period of multilateral trade and in the interim to encourage the United States capitalists to go in for wholesale capital export. The right hon. Member for Aldershot did begin his speech very well—I am still hopeful of getting his attention. He began by expressing contempt for economists. That is a contempt which I share.
Mr. Lyttelton: The hon. Gentleman is going to get me into serious hot water. What I did express contempt for was the language of economists, and I hoped there were none there to hear that contempt expressed—but not for them, oh, not for them.
Mr. Smith: The right hon. Gentleman is on firmer ground there. He made a speech in language of a robust and healthy type which it did me good, as a journalist, to listen to. If only his economics were as good as his business ability, he would be an ornament to his Front Bench, to this House and to the nation. I owe a great debt to the right hon. Gentleman for some of the speeches he used to make during the war, which gave me great encouragement during the long nocturnal hours in the warden's post. He used to make speeches like this—when no Tories were listening. When he was not in the arid atmosphere of Tory politics he was brilliant. I quote. This was in 1943:
"When peace comes, we shall be confronted with the problem of turning over to peace uses all our vastly increased capacity to produce. The condemnation of our prewar world was that it permitted resources to be unemployed."
It takes a good man to see a world richer today in the means of production than it was before, but he knows and I know, and that is the sort of intelligent thing I used to put out to the boys in the warden's post—turning Tory voters into Labour voters as the night wore through.
I am indebted to the right hon. Gentleman also for another speech, which I will give to the House because it does dispel this fantastic superstition that unless the old volume of exports can be maintained or even increase substantially, no one is going to get anywhere. Again I quote:
"Our industrial production has reached the highest point in our history, and it has been achieved on imports from overseas which are less than one-half of what we imported before the war. When I was first given these facts by my Department"—
that is, the Ministry Of Production—
"I took leave to doubt them, because they seemed like a fairy story or conjuring trick. But these figures cannot be upset."
The trouble with His Majesty's Government—I do not like to turn against my own Front Bench—is that there are hon. Gentlemen on that Front Bench who would have been quite at home in the Liberal Parliament of 1906. Then there is the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), the Leader of the Liberal Party. He is not looking as if he had won the Derby. He ought to have made that first speech explaining and defending and rejoicing in this preposterous Geneva Agreement. What is
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this Geneva Agreement? It does not purport to be anything less than a return to the 19th century. It includes the two conditions attached to the American Loan which I opposed—and rightly so—in 1945; Bretton Woods, which is the international gold standard up to date, and multilateral free trade. There is nothing new about it. It is mid-Victorian. In the reign of Queen Victoria the stage coach did run on four wheels. There were two other wheels besides the world gold currency and world free trade. In those days there was the free migration of labour and free movement of capital. The right hon. Member for Aldershot wants to get back to the free movement of capital. He can do that on one condition—if he will have a certain financial system which I will recommend and explain to him.
All this Geneva stuff was described very objectively and fairly in "The Times" leading article this morning, which gave the essence of the whole thing. I quote:
"Countries should export the goods and services they are fitted and well prepared to produce; they should import the things which others are better fitted to supply."
The time has gone by when that could happen any more as the hon. Member for North West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay) and the hon. Member for East Aberdeen pointed out. Does any Member of this House really suppose that Eire, or Portugal, or even Great Britain, will be able to run an industrial economy based on atomic fission? I and other hon. Members saw a film in Westminster Hall the other day, An atomic fission plant on the laboratory scale would very nearly fill this Chamber. What the hon. Members for North West Hull and Eastern Aberdeen said was quite true. Modern technology demands the very largest possible economic unit. What does our Front Bench give us? An unholy pact of 23 nations, that is to say, the United States and 22 others. It reminds me of an elephant and 22 chickens in the chicken run. The elephant said: "Each one for himself and God for us all." We are the chickens. The United States, with their tremendous resources, are the elephant. We have about as much hope of getting anything out of this as the chickens had of getting any satisfaction whatever in competition with the elephant in the chicken run.
There is another false assumption behind this multilateral system—what "The

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Times" calls countries exporting the goods and services they are fitted for and buying from others those they are more fitted for. The false assumption is that a firm is in business to meet peoples' needs: it is not. A firm is in business to achieve a financial result—just that. All business is the exchange of goods, not for goods, but for money. The whole fallacy underlying the right hon. Gentleman's hopes that the United States capitalists will be able to go in for capital export on a big scale is simply this: they are in no position to draw the interest on any capital which they might export. This country throughout the 19th century, though it is true that we reinvested much of the interest overseas, did take imports of food and raw materials. We had to, because however much we might have developed our agriculture—we did in fact sacrifice it—we should always, in any circumstances whatever, for reasons of soil, climate, and all the rest of it, have to import much food and many raw materials.
The United States do not need to do that to anything like the same extent. Because a firm is in business not to provide for people's needs but to achieve a financial result, anything which brings goods into a country like the United States injures that firm. Therefore, the United States will never put up with a large surplus of imports such as would be necessary to make work the system on which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot and his friends pin all their hopes. They could make it work if they would let me devise their fundamental system. I will explain in a few words how they could do it.
Mr. William Shepherd: The price would be too high.
Mr. Smith: This morning "The Times" said, quite rightly, that:
"… many Americans now see that a creditor country must be prepared to import more and more largely as production and trade elsewhere revive—"
They cannot do it for the reason which "The Times" also explains when it says:
"… the view of Congress often seems to be that the only legitimate tariff concessions are those which can be made without hurting any domestic interest."
If the United States would have a financial system which, instead of being based
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upon the idea that money may come into existence only after being created by bankers and lent to producers; if the United States, and we also, would have a different money system which would say that money shall come into existence created by the Government and, if necessary, be given away free to consumers, then we would be able to make overseas investment from the United States work. I cannot for the life of me understand why the party opposite, which wants to preserve private enterprise—of course it is the policy of this party also that there shall always be much private enterpris: there is a lot of good in it—I cannot for the life of me understand why it is that they will not take seriously the attempts of people like myself who want to have a different financial system rather than the outmoded one which has brought so much trouble and misery upon the world. Being businessmen, they say, "Oh, but you cannot give anything away." I ask, why not? What is the Marshall Plan but a tremendous act of give-away?
One of the bank chairmen said this week that the Marshall Plan was an unparalleled act of national magnanimity. No such thing. The bank chairman did not know his history. This country gave away any amount of money during the 19th century. A large proportion of our overseas investments were irretrievably lost. There are plenty of authorities for that. The late Lord Mancroft who used to sit in this House as Sir Arthur Michael Samuel and was at one time Financial Secretary to the Treasury—
Sir A. Salter: Is there any real difference between an involuntary loss and a gift?
Mr. Smith: The effect of the involuntary loss is precisely the same as the effect of a gift, because the parting country has parted with that which it lends overseas by way of capital investment in the one case, or Marshall Plan aid in the other. It is precisely the same. Sir Arthur Michael Samuel used to put the figure at £2,000 million. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) has put at £4,000 million the amount of dead loss of overseas investments before 1914. All through the 19th century, Great Britain was giving away wealth on a wholesale scale.

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The Marshall Plan is an act of giveaway. It is no use letting business notions dominate this thing. Modern technology has placed into the hands of men and women such immense productive powers that we must acquiesce in a system whereby much of that production shall, in fact, be given away. I stand for the Marshall Plan, because I believe in giveaway. My trade union constituents—the more sensible types—stand for it, provided always that there are no political strings. It is giving away. I opposed the American loan two years ago because of its political strings, when the Communist Members of this House, and their fellow travellers, supported it. They had not had their orders from Moscow. I do not take orders from Moscow. I take my own orders and use my own sense; and my own sense tells me that we must have a system of give-away economics.
I am in a great fix tonight. I will not vote for a policy of Geneva Agreements which is Liberal free trade and an attempt to go back to the 19th century, which falsifies every piece of Socialism that I have given the whole of my political life, 41 years, to achieve. I cannot vote for that. It is not I who defy the Labour Party conference, it is not I who go against Socialism; it is the Front Bench. What can I do? I have no use for the sort of cowardice which allows a man to sit on these Benches ostentatiously abstaining. I do not do that. If I must oppose the Government, I am going to oppose them, and I am going to go into the opposite Lobby, little as I like doing that.
I would not give a hoot for the Amendment which is on the Paper. The parentage of the Amendment is enough to condemn it. I do not know why the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) has his name on this Amendment, which rebukes the Government and tells them not to subscribe to the principle of nondiscrimination. The hon. Gentleman voted for the American Loan two years ago. He voted for non-discrimination: now he has turned round. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say presently. I do not like to go into the Lobby with a bunch of Tories. Toryism is odious to me, Communism is more odious still; but unless we carry into effect what the Foreign Secretary said last week, unless we seek to build a huge
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economic agglomeration, unless we will apply modern methods of Socialist planning plus an intelligent system of money creation which will develop the wealth of Africa and the skill of our own country and of the Dominions for the benefit of the inhabitants of all these countries—unless we do that, setting up an economy comparable in size and power with the economy of the United States or the Communist slave state of Russia, we are not going to carry into effect the things for which I have worked for 41 years.
I shall vote against the Government because I object to this appalling policy, which was never endorsed by any Labour Party conference, never endorsed even by any Labour Party meeting. I hope that others among my hon. Friends will have the courage to do the same. My last word is that it is no use telling me that my ideas about money must be wrong because no other hon. Member agrees with them. The mere fact of a man being in a minority does not make him wrong. It is no use telling me that the monetary system for which I stand has proved a failure in Alberta. It was never tried because the attempted legislation by the Alberta Government was overruled from Ottawa. I know, as a journalist, that nobody in this country is ever allowed to get into print with these ideas. Sooner or later that barrier will be broken down. I pray God that it may be sooner and not later.
7.0 p.m.
Sir Arthur Salter: This is a curious Debate. It started with a witty and entertaining speech from the Front Opposition Bench which showed, I think, that the speaker was apparently willing to wound but very reluctant to strike. We have just had two speeches of vehement attack on the Government from two of the Government's supporters. We have had another speech from an hon. Member on these benches which showed that he was in violent opposition to his own Front Bench. As for the speech to which we have just listened, the hon. Member tried very hard to detach himself from any odium that might attach to economists, and, in that, I think, he has been quite successful. His economics seem to me to be the economics of "Alice in Wonderland." I do not mean that to be an

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insulting remark, because there is some economic sense in that work, illumined by wit and disguised by fantasy. I was unable to discover what it was that the hon. Gentleman was proposing, and therefore I make no further comment on his speech. With regard to the hon. Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay), his was a very eloquent and impressive speech, and I found myself in agreement with almost everything he said except the close, which seemed to bear very little relationship to what he said before.
I am indebted to the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) because he has put, not only in eloquent but in emphatic terms, what seems to me to be the real broad issue before this House and the country at this moment, which is much wider than anything indicated in the Opposition Amendment. I do not know whether I can vote for or against that Amendment, because I really do not know what it means. It is not only broadly, but also ambiguously worded. As an old official, I am inclined to surmise from its phrasing that there must have been a good deal of difference of opinion behind its drafting. It seems a compromise, reflecting the highest common denominator, but not a very high common denominator, of opposing opinions.
The real issue was raised but not rightly described by my hon. Friend. The issue is not between a free and anarchic multilateralism on the one hand, and a wise planning of trading areas on the other. The issue is between a regulated and controlled multilateralism on the one side, and a competitive, and, I think, anarchic bilateralism on the other. That is the issue to which we have to bring our minds. Three successive Governments have been building up a system of controlled multilateralism. The present Government have continued the policy of their predecessors, and have done so, I think, with the support of the vast majority of hon. Members on all sides of this House.
In that structure, the International Fund is one part, the International Bank another, this Geneva Convention is a third, the International Trade Organisation, which is now being negotiated in Havana, is a fourth, and there is, supporting and surrounding it, the whole of what is associated now with the Marshall Plan. This whole system that has been in course of such painful and slow construction is
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now, I confess, in danger. Some of these dangers are indicated by certain difficulties which have been experienced in Havana. Some are reflected, though largely disguised, in the phrasing of the Opposition Amendment, behind which, I suspect, there are some forces outside this House which aim at wrecking the whole of this new system, forces which found their expression not so much in the phrasing of the Amendment as in the speech of my hon. Friend.
We all of us know, too, what has happened in France in the last week constitutes another danger to the system if it spreads and has wide repercussions. We may take what is being done with the franc either as an indication to us that the whole of the system of controlled multilateralism is destined to be wrecked, and the sooner we get out the better—which my hon. Friend might wish—or we may take it as a stimulus to try at once to repair the damage that has been done and give another chance of success to the efforts of the last few years. On the French position, I would only say this. Hoping as I do very sincerely that the second course will be taken, I would, in line with what the Chancellor suggested the other day, sincerely trust that France will realise that, as far as her purpose may be to encourage dehoarding of gold and the repatriation of expatriated gold and currency, she will have a much better chance of increasing and accelerating her results if she decides upon an early time limit for the free market operations. I propose to say nothing more on the French position, having indicated that that, in my view, is one of the dangers to the whole of the system of which the Convention now before us is a part.
I am going to indulge this evening in the privilege which I do not often nowadays enjoy, of supporting the Government. While, however, I support the Government in their main position, there are certain respects in which I agree with the critics. In particular, I regret the strength of the emphasis on the unconditional most-favoured-nation clause in the first part of this Charter, and the inadequacy of the exceptions that are provided in the later clauses. After some years of experience at Geneva in trying to get a reduction and stabilisation of tariffs, I came to the very definite conclusion that the unconditional most-favoured-nation clause, in the form in which it was then

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being applied, was both unjust and also a real impediment to the reduction of tariffs. I am sure that we and America made a great mistake in 1932 in opposing the Ouchy proposal of Belgium and Holland. I am sure the recommendations of the following year at Monte Video were much wiser.
I believe, as several speakers have said today, that as the European side of the Marshall Plan begins to get into operation, it will be realised more and more clearly both by Europeans and by Americans that anything like a single jump to a Customs Union will be impossible, and that some halfway stage, which really means preferences being admitted as a legitimate exception to a most-favoured-nation clause, will be essential. I should, therefore, think it a very good thing if the Government were able, at the present stage of the Marshall Plan development, to find an opportunity when the Havana Conference meets again to secure arrangements on this matter which are rather more elastic and flexible. Having said that, and having to choose between the main courses which we are to follow, then I say that I am entirely on the side of the Government, and for two reasons. The first is the difficulties and dangers of the alternative proposal, and the second is the positive merits of the Draft Charter and the other conventions associated with it, such as Bretton Woods.
Our real problem is, of course, not to secure a balance in our international payments. That we cannot avoid. The question is to what extent that balance is secured by means of loans or gifts and the level of imports which we shall be able to secure when those resources are no longer available. Our problem is to secure a balance at a level which ensures our essential imports of food and raw materials. We all know that, in order to do that, we need an increase of something like 70 per cent on the volume of our prewar exports. If we look realistically at the number of markets throughout the world, does anyone think that can be done simply by increasing our fraction of an unincreased world trade? I think there is no doubt whatever that it can only come about by means of a relatively modest increase of our proportion of a very considerably expanded world trade.
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With that in mind, how do we think, on the alternative proposal, if we adopt the course suggested by my hon. Friend, that we are going to export enough to secure the imports of food and raw materials which we must have?
Mr. Boothby: May I ask my right hon. Friend one important question? Where, under his scheme, does he expect to find the markets? I have at least suggested Western Europe and the British Empire, but where, under a multilateral trade arrangement, which would not include the Soviet Union, is he going to find them?
Sir A. Salter: Partly in the same places as suggested by my hon. Friend, and partly in the rest of the world, including North and South America. I will not overstate my argument by quoting present figures, but if we look back to a time when we were making our imports and exports roughly balance, how did we do it? Between one-half and one-third of our total exports went to countries which sold much less to us than they bought from us. Under a system of competitive bilateralism, such as my hon. Friend contemplates, we should lose a great many of those markets. Secondly, we must remember the weakness of our bargaining position if any kind of competitive sterling grouping is attempted. On the whole, the things we sell to other countries are less essential to them than the things we import from them are to us. With that in mind, supposing we start a competition between a sterling area and a dollar area, and force a clean-cut choice, what countries are we, in fact, going to bring within our own system?
People talk about the Commonwealth and Empire, but, if it comes to a compulsory choice, which way, in fact, will Canada go? Where, in fact, will South Africa go? Where, in fact, will India go, apart from the fact that we may, of course, sell her a great many exports—unrequited—paid for out of the sterling balances which she holds of ours? Where will Malaya go? I have mentioned four parts of the Commonwealth which cover a good half of the total of our Empire trade. We can obviously only hope to bring them within our system if we imagine that they can be largely moved by non-economic measures.
The hon. Member talked about a Grad-grind philosophy, the extremely painful

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necessity of having to make things cheaply, and at competitive prices. But those are the facts of life, and we are not going to escape them by attempting to make an Imperial arrangement with Dominions who are perfectly free to refuse, if they see that their economic advantage is elsewhere. They might prefer to trade with us, but will certainly not come into our system at great and continuing economic loss to themselves. If we attempt to exploit sentiments of friendship to secure that they do so, nothing is likely so seriously to weaken the bonds of our Commonwealth. If we turn, then, from the self-governing Dominions—who can decide things for themselves—to the dependent Empire, do we think we can find in the dependent Empire, whose economic policy we can determine from here, a sufficient substitute for what we shall be losing? It is quite true that, ultimately, the resources of the dependent Empire, in Africa and elsewhere, will be very great, but how soon can they be developed? With what expenditure of capital, and where is sufficient capital to come from, unless there are, in addition to what we can afford, the resources of other capital exporting countries like America? Obviously, it is an impossible thing.
Then we come to Europe. The hon. Member for North-West Hull—who, I am sorry to see, is not here now, and who made such an eloquent speech—seemed to think that the solution was a federation with Western Europe. He did not apparently contemplate any complete Customs Union. But, supposing we go in the direction of that union, do we think that the necessities of this country, which are food and raw materials, can possibly be met by economic arrangements, however good they may be, and however good a contribution they may be to a general system, with Western Europe? It seems to me to be perfectly fantastic. Therefore, I think that the alternative proposal—
Mr. Hale: In defence of my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull, I must point out that he made it quite clear that he did not regard Western Europe as completely exclusive, and he particularly said that it included the whole of the Colonial territories of the various constituent lands, and, indeed, the Common-
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wealth nations too, in so far as they relate to Western Europe.
Sir A. Salter: I was very much impressed by the hon. Gentleman's speech, up to the last part, when I could not really follow what he was proposing, apart from a federation of Western Europe. I do not see how, or by what methods, he was hoping to get more, or as much, from the rest of the world as the present Government proposals would Secure. But apart from the restricted possibilities of the bilateral scheme, look at some of the dangers there will be to us and others if all countries have a completely unregulated freedom to make special bargains. Look at the enormous danger to ourselves of restrictive schemes in food producing or raw material producing countries, schemes based upon quotas, and so on. We shall be in very great danger if there is no international system in any way restricting or regulating that kind of either national or competitively bilateral arrangement.
I base my support of the Government, however, not only upon the defects of the alternative, but upon the positive merits of this scheme. I agree with the right hon. Member for Aldershot that, at a time when the exceptions must be more prominent than the principle, it might have been a tidier thing to have changed the phrasing, but one has to bear in mind the historical origin of these conventions. The important fact is that while these conventions do lay down the general goal towards which they hope the world will be making, they fully recognise the special circumstances of the time and provide safeguards against the dangers which would result from the premature application of the full doctrine.
The convention does not preclude, although it limits, Imperial preference. It does not preclude, although it controls and regulates, import restrictions. It does not preclude, although it controls and regulates, discrimination in purchases. It does not preclude, although it regulates, adjustments in the exchange rates. Above all, it makes these exceptions and provides these safeguards for precisely the case which is our greatest problem and the greatest problem of the non-dollar world, the fundamental disequilibrium in the balance of payments. I apologise to my right hon. Friend, but

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I cannot find another phrase at the moment.
That means, in effect, that countries with a surplus balance of payments, like the United States, so far from using this complex of agreements in order to dominate the world, have voluntarily under these agreements, waived a great part of their superior power. They are imposing upon themselves restrictions from which we are specifically exempt while we are in the position in which we are and shall for a long time be. That is why I support the Government, not only because of the defects of the alternative scheme but because of the positive merits of this scheme.
It has been said that the Marshall Plan will prove to be irreconcilable with some of the provisions of this draft convention. But the convention is, to a large extent, adjustable at the discretion and under the control of authorities, set up for the purpose of agreeing upon exceptions from the main principles. I believe that, as time goes on, experience of the fundamental problem of the world for this next decade, at least, the disequilibrium between the West and the East, will result in the whole of these controlling and regulating authorities acting in such a way as to be to our advantage. We shall be helped to solve the inescapable problem of increasing, not necessarily our proportion of world trade, but our total bulk of exports, and therefore our total ability to import from the rest of the world.
The Marshall Plan has already represented, as hon. Members who compare it with the commercial documents attached to the American Loan will, I think, agree, a very remarkable evolution of American opinion. As it stands, and as it has now been presented by the American Administration to Congress, it is quite as much without precedent, in its foresight, in its constructive political purpose and in its generosity in peacetime, as Lend-Lease was in wartime. I am sure that after the Marshall aid period, as America gradually faces her problem of the balance of payments after Marshall aid has come to an end, she will realise that there should be, from that balance of payments position, an immense impulse towards a constructive investment policy which I trust will cover the present British Colonies, as well
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as other countries whose economic and political conditions make them ripe for rapid development. Consideration of her balance of payments will also encourage every form of commercial policy which will help her customers to increase their purchasing power, for there is no question that for a long time the limiting factor to American exports will be the ability of America's customers to find the dollars to pay for her goods.
For all those reasons I am entirely opposed to the alternative put forward to us this evening of a bargaining and competitive bilateral policy. We have not sufficient bargaining power to make it succeed; and we should abandon and lose altogether the very great advantages of a system such as is now put before us which gives us, in many respects, the best of both worlds. We have a considerable measure of safeguard against the danger of commercial policies and practices which other countries might impose to our very great detriment. At the same time, we have a certain flexibility and elasticity in the safeguarding provisions to help us to overcome the essential and fundamental problem of our balance of payments. For that reason, I propose to support the Government tonight.
7.25 p.m.
Mr. Maclay: I am more than glad that the right hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) has brought the Debate back to the Charter and to the agreements which are a part of the Motion before the House. Earlier speakers had taken the Debate into most fascinating and interesting directions, and with many things which were said one agreed. Nevertheless, we are dealing now with something we have got, and have got as a result of two and a half years of very hard work. I am told that no fewer than 1,000 meetings have taken place. If 23 nations can survive more than 1,000 meetings and still, agree upon anything at all, it is a most encouraging sign in an age when agreement is not very easy to get.
Considering the general dislocation of the world today, and the difficult conditions which exist in the various countries which took part in the discussions, it is not at all surprising that the document which we are discussing this evening should show signs of compromise,

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in fact, so many signs of compromise that it must be open to attack from almost every side. It seems impossible at this stage accurately to assess where the balance of advantage lies, as regards the tariff agreement itself. Have our concessions in Imperial Preference been fully balanced by corresponding concessions elsewhere? I would suggest that it is quite possible for what appears to be very substantial tariff reductions still to have a level of duties which could prevent the movement of goods.
There is no telling, for a period of years, whether they will actually be effective. All through the early discussions on this subject during the last few years there was far too much talk about "substantial" reductions in tariffs. The word should really have been "effective," if the language was to mean anything. Even on the information given us tonight we have no way of judging whether the concessions which have been granted in return for what we gave up in Imperial Preference will actually be effective in promoting the movement of goods.
Accordingly it would have been very much better if it had been possible to debate this subject in some other way than we are doing, possibly upon an Adjournment Motion. The tariff agreement, important as it is, is only part of a whole whose shape we shall only see at the end of the Havana Conference. If the hon. Member for South Nottingham (Mr. N. Smith) were here, I would inform him frankly that I am going to sit on the fence. I am not prepared to back the Government unrestrainedly in what they have done. If the Motion were purely upon the Geneva Agreement I think I would do so, but the Motion asks the House to approve the action taken by His Majesty's Government at the second session of the Conference on Trade and Employment. It is very loosely and widely worded.
We are not discussing merely the Tariff Agreement but everything that is going on at Havana. Remarkably little has been said today of what is going on at Havana. I am not prepared to give my support either way. It is almost the only time since I have been in Parliament that I have taken that line. There was one other occasion. But that was at five o'clock one morning on the
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Motion for the Adjournment, when I abstained deliberately. I shall abstain deliberately again tonight. This is not a Motion upon which one can vote without committing oneself to something that one does not understand and which has not been fully explained.
It is, perhaps, the most interesting aspect of the Agreement and of the draft Charter that in the last few months I have heard it attacked equally savagely on the one hand by ardent multilateralists, and on the other hand by others who think multilateral trade is too distant an objective to be worthy of serious consideration in present conditions. The real fault of the document, when it reached Havana, lies in the fact that in its present form it contains a confusion of principles and exceptions which must inevitably lead to argument and difficulty. Looking at the Charter as it is at present drafted, one can well argue that the principles are so qualified by exceptions as to lose meaning; or, alternatively, those who are obsessed by the present state of chaos of world trade might equally argue that it is misleading to subscribe to principles when in the immediate future it is the exceptions which must be operative.
The document would have been better drafted, and we should have avoided some of the arguments which we have heard this evening, had it been set out clearly in three parts; the first part containing a statement of long range principle of national policy in international economic relations, followed by another part which could have dealt with provisions for the transition period, followed by a third part which would have been the permanent emergency measures which could be taken if things went wrong. One would then have had a document which would have let nations know, when they were acting, on what part of the Charter they were acting. If they were taking exceptional measures they would know that the exceptional measures were taken in exceptional circumstances and there would be some hope that what they did would not tend to become the permanent economic practice of the nation.
With the Charter as it stands, it would be possible to argue marginal cases indefinitely, and there are many who feel that it is almost dishonest to subscribe to a document which contains principles, which we can only accept because we

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know there are also escape clauses which we can use. Nevertheless, I am convinced that for Britain of all nations, the objective of multilateral trade is all-important. No nation stands to gain more from multilateral trade in the long run, and no nation stands to lose more if we find that other nations are repeatedly and progressively taking unilateral action which will prevent the free flow of trade about the world. I would add to what has been said before to the enthusiastic bilateralists, that this country of all countries enters bilateral negotiations in a singularly weak position because we have to sell goods which are only semi-essential while we have to buy goods which are absolutely essential in a period when the supply of essential goods is singularly limited.
At this moment, however, everything we are doing is completely over-shadowed by the disastrous fact that world production is hopelessly out of balance, and I suspect that that factor will dominate almost everything we do in years to come. It is a pity, too, that we go on talking about dollar shortages and financial disequilibrium and all the other jargon, because it is important that the man in the street should understand that the conditions in which he is to live and the question whether the British standard of living can be maintained will be determined by whether we can quickly enough get the productive ability of the whole of the world other than the Americas back to the point where we can achieve anything like a balance. There seems to be a remarkable unanimity of view on this subject in this Debate, which is not surprising, because it is the obvious truth, but I wonder how many people in the street realise that that is the ghastly problem which faces this country and which overrides almost everything we are worrying about today and in the future.
If that is so, I suggest that the most enthusiastic multilateralist must see that it will be necessary to build up trade wherever we can. I would expand on that, but I do not wish to do so in detail, because previous speakers have done so fully. Throughout the Debate there seems to have been a confusion which I cannot understand. People argue that multilateral objectives are wrong. I do not know whether it is because they are too distant or because people believe that
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fundamentally they are wrong. At the same time, people argue in favour of bigger trading units. Of course, one agrees that bigger trading units are essential. I would have thought that the whole point was that in increasing the size of trading units, whether by bilateral agreements or regional agreements or various systems of preference, the ultimate objective is to increase trade within these areas so that ultimately it flows into multilateral trade. I do not see that there is any real quarrel on that account between the multilateralist and the bilateralist.
It is difficult to see why one should object fundamentally to the draft Charter as it stands at the moment. The only point is that it puts a lot of emphasis upon principles and it gives the exceptions; but how else could it be drafted? It would be almost as illogical a document if it were drafted as a document of fundamental exceptions with ultimately a fundamental principle. It can be done in whichever way one likes. Its present confusion arises because the two are mixed up in the same chapter, and when reading the Charter one never knows whether one is reading about principle or exception. That is a great objection to the document.
I now come to some hard and practical things which we can do now under the Agreement already signed. The right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) referred rather unkindly to the "dusty" articles which dealt with subjects such as formalities connected with importation and exportation. I would draw the attention of the House, and particularly of the President of the Board of Trade, to Article VIII where these words appear:
"The contracting parties also recognise the need for reducing the number and diversity of such fees and charges, for minimising the incidence and complexity of import and export formalities, and for decreasing and simplifying import and export documentation requirements."
Trading today is cluttered up with endless pieces of paper. I would like to refer to a paper which came to my hands this morning. It sets out the documents required by the Brazilian Consul in Cardiff in order to clear a ship with crew and passengers. The documents he required are: Ship's articles, bill of health, ship's register and customs clearance, five copies of the crew list for each Brazilian

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port, five copies of the passenger list, two copies of the manifest, two copies of bill of lading and master's declaration, and a subsequent request for another eight copies of the passenger list and landing cards, six copies of passenger transit list, seven copies of the crew list and two copies of the store lists. That was not all. The ship had to have 40 duplicates of other documents in order to cover transit passengers going through the Brazilian ports. That only touches some of the troubles. The question of the formalities concerning goods themselves would make one shudder.
Here is one substantial achievement in this Agreement for which the Government could claim credit if they had noticed it; they can do something about this matter to which I have just referred under the Agreement. I urge them to get on with it as hard as they can. If they do that, despite this welter of confused objectives and ideals, they will have done something useful for the country.
7.38 p.m.
Mr. Warbey: Like the hon. Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Maclay), I find it extremely difficult to support the Motion because it is almost impossible for us to know to what we are being committed. It refers to the action taken by the Government at the Second Session of the Preparatory Committee of the United Nations Conference on Trade and Employment. We are dealing not merely with the Agreement signed on trade and tariffs, but also with another document—the draft Charter for the International Trade Organisation which was drawn up at Geneva but which is now under discussion at Havana.
We have been told nothing at all about the Havana discussions, and we have had very little information indeed in the British Press about them. In fact, there is probably not one person in a million in this country who knows anything about what is happening at Havana and who really knows what this country is being committed to by its negotiators, or what will be the outcome, if there is any outcome at all. Even on these grounds alone, I find it rather difficult to support a Motion of this kind, I find it even more difficult in view of what is actually contained in the Agreements to which we have already put our signature.
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But that does not mean to say that I find it possible to support the extraordinary Amendment which has been moved by the Opposition. If there was ever a case of backing the horse both ways, of trying to have the cake and eat it at the same time, it is certainly illustrated in their Amendment. First, it urges the Government not to subscribe prematurely to the principles of non-discrimination; then it goes on to give support to the conception of multilateral trade; and, finally, it seeks to encourage a policy of developing trade both with the Empire and countries of Western Europe and their overseas territories. If that third point means anything at all, it is that the Government are to be encouraged to direct our trade in certain directions—in other words, that there has to be some planning of our trade, some special development of our trade with the Empire and countries of Western Europe.
It is impossible to plan our trade, to organise its special development, without some form of discrimination. The meaning of "discrimination" is to make a choice; "non-discrimination" means that a choice does not have to be made, that everything is left to chance, or to the result of the actions of hundreds of thousands of isolated people. I am glad to say that the Opposition appreciates that non-discrimination and planning do not go together. They are now awakening to the idea, which has been put forward from these benches for some time, that planning and non-discrimination are an antithesis, that by planning internal economy a deliberate choice is made by one against another, and that in planning foreign trade there must be discrimination in favour of certain products and certain exchanges against other countries.
At the same time, the Opposition are asking us to support a conception of multilateral trade to which the Government have paid lip service by some of the speeches of their spokesmen. There is a good deal of confusion about the use of the word "multilateral." If the word is used simply in the sense that we desire to have trade with all countries, that is a doctrine to which, I am sure, every Member of the House would subscribe. Nobody, even the most ardent advocate of a series of bilateral pacts, would suggest that we should deliberately try to exclude trade with any other country in the world.

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We are all in favour of the maximum degree of trade with all countries, but that is not the meaning of "multilateralism" in the sense in which the word is usually employed by present day economists, nor is it the meaning understood by United States representatives who are most ardent in advocating multilateral trade. They understand multilateral trade as meaning the free exchange of commodities between one country and another, according to the principle of purchase in the cheapest market and sale in the dearest—good, old-fashioned, 19th century principles, which have been described by other speakers—coupled with a lack of consideration for the special balance of payments position arising between any two countries. That is the conception of multilateralism towards which the United States Government are seeking to move this and other countries, and to which His Majesty's Government are apparently also committed to move.
It is about time that this Government made up their minds as to the direction in which they intend to develop our trade policy for the future. We have had a remarkable dichotomy in the speeches and actions of the Government and their different spokesmen about our international trade. The President of the Board of Trade at Geneva, when this Charter for multilateral trade was discussed, said, according to "The Times" of 25th August:
"The Preparatory Committee must face the fact that methods may have to be used in the intervening months and years which might appear to be opposed to the principles and methods of the draft charter."
The right hon. Gentleman said that they would certainly have to assist their position by agreements with particular countries. On other occasions, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated that we are intending to work, as soon as possible, towards a system of multilateral trade. In our recent discussions about the release of the remaining part of the American Loan we stated that we were hoping to restore, as soon as possible, the convertibility of our currency and get back to the principles of non-discrimination in trade. We were informed by "The Times" correspondent at Geneva, on 8th August, that:
"The British Government seeks exemptions only from the provisions of the General Agree-
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ment which will come into force at an early date, and for an interim period of short duration."
The Secretary for Overseas Trade said today that even by the end of this year we shall be in a position in which the majority of other countries who are signatory to the interim Geneva Agreement can prevent us from engaging in discriminatory trade. In other words, it appears that the Government are already planning to get back, within a year or two, to the principles of multilateral trade and non-discrimination to which the United States have been trying to move us ever since we signed the American Loan Agreement. It is quite clear that we must make up our minds, and soon, about the direction in which we are going.
We find that, once again, as in the case of the Bretton Woods Agreements, we have been forced prematurely to join a club which other people are not joining until later, or are joining on different conditions. We entered the Bretton Woods Agreements, as the result of the American Loan Agreement, under particularly unfavourable conditions for this country. Whereas the club arrangements were that countries were to be given a five-years transitional period before subscribing to the full terms of the club, we were given only a one-year transitional period. All the difficulties which we have been experiencing since July of last year have flowed from the fact that we were forced prematurely into that club. Now, once again, we are prematurely entering the Havana club. We have entered the Havana club long before the Havana discussions have been completed, and we have entered it, not on good terms, but with some of the most favourable aspects of the terms of the Charter omitted from the Geneva Agreements.
It has always been stated by the Government—and it was stated again today—when discussing our general trade policy, that one of the conditions to which we attached the greatest importance was that every country should seek to maintain full employment and that no country, if it got into economic difficulties, should seek to export its unemployment to other countries. I believe that we have made an attempt to incorporate into the draft Charter certain provisions, certain escape clauses, which would restore our freedom

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of action in the event of one country or another acting in such a way as to injure our own economic position as the result of its failure to maintain full employment. I am not at all satisfied that those escape clauses are sufficiently clear; and still less am I satisfied that the obligations of all participating nations to maintain full employment, and particularly in regard to the appropriate means by which full employment can be maintained, have been sufficiently clearly stated in the draft Charter of the International Trade Organisation.
But what particularly concerns me tonight is that none of these provisions regarding full employment appears in the Interim Agreement of Geneva, to which this country has already committed itself. In other words, we have accepted the principles of non-discriminatory trade without at the same time insisting upon acceptance of the complementary principles regarding the maintenance of full employment. That I regard as a very serious dilemma with which this country has been presented by the decision of the Government to sign this Geneva Agreement.
What will happen if the Havana Conference breaks up without any agreement being concluded? There is certainly no assurance that agreement is to be reached as Havana. Indeed, from what I have seen in the very scanty reports in the Press, there has been a great deal of disagreement at Havana. The discussions are not going at all well. It is by no means certain that a Charter will eventually emerge from those discussions, or that any significant number of nations will agree to subscribe to a Charter. We may then find ourselves landed in the position of having subscribed to the doctrines of non-discriminatory trade and having got none of the protection which was designed to appear in the other parts of the draft Charter. I hope that the Government may be able to give us some assurance before tonight's Debate is finished, that we are more carefully, more fully protected in this matter than I believe we are at the present moment.
Then, considering the draft Charter itself, and the application of the doctrine of non-discrimination, I am disturbed to find that there are a number of forms of discrimination which do not make any
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appearance or which are not adequately covered in the draft Charter. What, for example, is being done about the form of discrimination which exists through tied loans? What is being done about that in the draft Charter? What is being done about the form of discrimination which exists in compulsory shipping agreements—the kind of agreement which the United States Government tried to force the Norwegians to accept about a year ago, when they made a loan to Norway, and then insisted that the goods carried from the United States to Norway should be carried solely in American bottoms—a condition which, for one of the leading maritime nations of the world, is really almost an insult. Clearly, that is a form—a very excessive one—of discriminatory trade policy. I should like to know—because, after all, we, too, are very much concerned, as a leading maritime nation, with a matter of this kind—whether we have endeavoured to protect ourselves against discrimination of that kind.
Then, what is the form of protection against dumping? I understand, from looking at the documents, that the draft Charter allows countries to protect their own interests against dumping by other countries. But is there any safeguard against the effect of dumping in third countries? That is, after all, a serious danger that may face this country in the event of an American depression. If a slump comes in the United States—and even the President of the United States himself has admitted that that is a serious possibility—then we shall be faced in all the countries which are our principal markets with the competition of dumped American goods. What protection is there in the Charter against that form of dumping in countries other than our own?
Then, there have been some interesting discussions at Havana in regard to the control of international investment. It appears that, largely at the insistance of the United States, certain clauses are being written into the Charter which would seek to ensure what is described as non-discriminatory treatment of foreign investment. I use the words of somebody writing in "The Times" on 22nd August last year. The writer said that the draft Charter:
"Applies to investment the most-favoured-nation principle, in that members undertake not to impose, either directly or indirectly, any requirements on the investments of non-

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nationals which are appreciably more onerous than those imposed on their own nationals or upon the nationals of third countries. They are also required to make just compensation for such interests taken over by the State or placed under State management or occupation."
In the course of the Debate we have heard about encouraging the Americans to export more capital, and to invest in other countries. It may well be that certain countries, our own included, wish to protect their industries and national resources against being bought up by rich and powerful States, or being put in pawn to private investors in rich and powerful States. That is a form of protection against the abuse of the power of money which all Socialist Governments introduce in their own countries. We, as Socialists, subscribe to the principle that the power of money to control capital and natural resources should be restricted. Equally, certain countries—and our own may be included—may well want to have the right to protect themselves from having their industries put in pawn to private persons in other countries. I want to know whether we are taking a stand against this non-discriminatory treatment of foreign capital.
Also, are we subscribing to the principle, which I understand the Americans are now trying to introduce, that when compensation is paid to foreign investors in property which is nationalised, the compensation shall be in the currency of the investor? In other words, if American citizens have invested in dollars in a European country, the compensation would have to be paid to them in dollars instead of in the local currency. If we accept that principle, what shall we be doing? We shall be making a god of money, and a god possibly of the dollar, instead of basing ourselves upon the sound principle of the exchange of goods for goods. If the loan takes the form of the transfer of capital goods from the United States to, let us say, European countries, why should not the return of the loan take the form of a flow of goods from that country to the United States? That would be the case if the repayment compensation were made in the local currency, which could then be used by the Americans for the purchase of goods from that country.
I am concerned, too, about the clauses dealing with State trading. How far does
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the draft Charter, and particularly Article 30, leave our Government free to continue their established food procurement policy?—a policy based upon the import of food from abroad at reasonable world market prices, coupled with the purchase of food from home producers at normally higher prices, in order to provide a reasonable standard of living for British farmers and farm workers, with a price for the consumer which is either averaged between the two prices or specially subsidised. How far do the terms in regard to state trading allow us to continue a policy of that kind? How far do the terms allow us to continue with our policy of bulk purchase? How far do they allow us to make a further development of state trading or state control, and of foreign trade, than we have so far made in this country?
I was concerned to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that under the terms of the agreement we have made we should not be able, even if we wanted to do so, to steer our exports away from hard currency countries in order to secure the import of things we needed from soft currency countries. Does that mean we are building our hopes for the future trade of this country on some speculative market in the United States? Does it mean we are to forgo the possibility of building up reciprocal longterm trade agreements with other European countries and the Empire, which would give some stability to our trade? Those are the kinds of questions I should like to hear answered this evening.
After all, the argument is not between rigid multilateralists and rigid bilateralists. The argument which some hon. Members are trying to put forward is for planned trade as against unplanned trade. That is what we want. There are certain elements essential to planned trade—which, after all, is the Socialist conception of international trade. One of those elements is that it should be possible to make reciprocal long-term agreements with other countries, thus ensuring the import of goods needed, such as food and raw materials, with at the same time, assured markets for goods exported. It may well be that in future years, when international trade competition becomes more fierce—and particularly if a slump develops from the United States—we shall have a great need to have our trade buttressed upon the sure foundation of agreements with other countries, provid-

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ing us with safe markets for the goods we have to export.
That does not mean we have to make such long-term agreements with all countries; nor does it mean that all our export production is to be mortgaged in the form of long-term trade agreements. But there ought to be a section for which we are sure we have markets; and there may be another section which is, as it were, free to enter into a multilateral circulation with countries not willing to enter into long-term planned trading agreements. That is the kind of flexible conception of our international trade which we must develop, and which should not be restricted by the kind of conception put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hull (Mr. R. Mackay)—much as I agree with a great deal of his analysis.
We must recognise that in Western Europe alone, markets satisfactory either to this country or to the other Western European countries, cannot be created. The economies of the Western European countries are not complementary but are, mainly, competitive. All of them are planning to expand their steel production in the coining year. Who will decide, first, how much steel is to be produced in each country; and, secondly, where that steel and the goods manufactured with that steel are to be exported? The markets for those goods will be largely, not only in Africa and the Empire, but also in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, and in other predominantly agricultural countries.
We must develop our planned trading arrangements, not merely with Western Europe, but throughout Europe as a whole and throughout the Empire. That is the kind of conception which makes sense to me, because it is based upon Socialist economic principles. But there is no sense at all in the kind of hotchpotch of a half conception, and rules which are made to be broken by other rules, in their turn made to be broken by yet further rules, which we have in these agreements and I hope the Government will look at the matter again.
8.10 p.m.
Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: I will not take up the time of the House, in reply to the rather long speech to which we have just listened. I will come straight to the main principles with
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which we are concerned in this Debate upon the Geneva Agreement. I think that the Government were right to sign the Agreement. I propose to subject it and them to certain criticisms, referred to specifically in the Amendment standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). There has been a lot of criticism of this Amendment, but I think that it is a good one. There are three questions which we have to decide. The first is whether nations should agree to any rules to govern their international trade relations. I fancy that the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) thinks that there ought not to be any rules at all, and I think that one or two speeches have been made from hon. Members opposite in the same vein. The second question we have to decide, if we want some rules, is whether these are the right ones. Thirdly, having decided upon the system, we have to make up our minds whether we are doing the right things to carry it into effect.
I agree that whatever else you do in international trade policy, you have to relate your policy for international trade to the policy which is being pursued for your domestic affairs at home. The answer to the first question must be an unqualified "yes." The existence of some limitation upon the right to impose tariffs, quotas, discriminations and all the rest is obviously in the interests of Great Britain and her Dominions. I am not going to elaborate the case which was made by the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter). Look at what Britain buys. She buys food, without which she would starve, and raw materials, without which she would have mass unemployment. Apart from coal, Britain sells manufactured articles which other countries can very often do without, and so, obviously, there must be some limitation on the right to exclude exports. I do not think we are in a strong position because we happen to be a large purchaser. The purchaser is only in a strong position when he has money in his pocket and there are plenty of things to buy. It is facile optimism to imagine that we can dictate to the markets of the world because once we were buying from a great number of nations.
I do not rest the case solely on the interests of Great Britain. I rest it on the interests of our Dominions as well. All

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of us, and particularly the Conservative Party, should hesitate before pursuing a trade policy which is in direct conflict with the wishes of our Dominions. I should like to take the case of Canada. I take Canada for two reasons; firstly, because I have just been there, and, secondly, because in terms of trade with the United Kingdom she is the largest customer. I do not claim that I can represent Canadian opinion, but while I was there I met men of different political parties, economists, civil servants, industrialists and workers, and I found an overwhelming body of opinion in favour of the Geneva Agreement. Opinion was in favour of the Agreement for a very good reason. Canada has got a balanceof-payments difficulty herself. Before the war, Canada very largely bought from the United States and sold to us. She balanced her account by converting sterling into dollars. But she cannot do that any longer, for reasons which are familiar to all of us. There are only two choices open to her. Either she has to stop selling to the United Kingdom and sell to the United States, or she has to stop buying from the United States and buy from the United Kingdom. To our immense advantage, she has adopted the latter course.
What Canada has done is, by a quota system, to put a virtual barrier on a whole range of United States imports into Canada. She has shut out American goods, and has thrown her markets wide open to the manufactures of Britain. That is a situation which is of immense advantage to us, and it is of long-term advantage to Canada. I wish to make it perfectly plain that this policy was only made possible because the Geneva Agreement was in existence. The Canadian and American economies are very closely interlocked. America is a great market for Canada. There is American capital in Canadian industries, and the two countries are linked up through cost of living and price indices, which move up and down together. They cannot cut off from one another.
I can assure the House that any Government in Canada of any political party could not conceivably have done this type of discrimination, which is to our immense benefit, unless it had been done in agreement with the State Department at Washington, and in agreement with
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the rules and principles laid down at Geneva, as understood and approved by both countries. Not only from our point of view, but from the point of view of our Dominions, there is a strong case for having laid down some agreed rules and principles. I could say the same kind of things with regard to Australia, but I will rest my case on Canada.
The next question is whether these are the right rules. I find some difficulty in talking about principles in foreign trade matters, because the protagonists of the various schools of thought hold their views with religious fervour and do not cnsider what makes economic sense and what makes economic nonsense. I believe that the old issue which divided the Liberals and the Tories, the issue of Free Trade and Protection, is dead. I believe that the issue in its modern form, namely, multilateral trade as against discrimination, is also very nearly dead. I do not believe that anyone who looks at the world today, with all the upheavals, civil war, destruction and so on, can seriously suggest that we could return to the 19th century conception of multilateral trade. I do not believe that anyone with Britain's interests at heart could imagine that that was the right course. I do not believe with our position incredibly weakened economically, that it would be a good thing for us to enter a period of economic anarchy, during which time we struck such bargains as we could.
The issue here is not Free Trade or Protection, or multilateral trade or discrimination, but whether we are have a limit to nations imposing quotas and discriminating just as they will, and whether we are to trade with our Dominions and the United States according to the same rules of the game. We ought to lay down the rules of the game. The principle which underlies Geneva is a good one. It is that a nation that is in a weak position or in trouble with her balance of payments can discriminate. A nation which is in a strong position and has the right balance of payments cannot retaliate. A situation like that seems wholly to the advantage of the United Kingdom. I spent some time in the United States, and I do not think there is any doctrinaire belief in multilateral trade which is sometimes represented to exist there. They recognise perfectly well that the world can only get from the

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United States what the Americans are prepared to give or for which they expect payment.
I am an advocate of Imperial Preference. It has done a great job for the British Commonwealth in the past, and it will do a great job for it in the future. The case for Imperial Preference has suffered from two things: It has been grossly overstated by Lord Beaverbrook, which I think has weakened it, and I do not think it has been sufficiently praised by His Majesty's Government. It is obviously not true that Imperial Preference is the only or even the main basis of Empire trade. Empire trade depends on being able to sell goods that the Empire wants at a price which the Empire can afford to pay. That is not a materialistic conception of humanity; it is common sense. We have had plenty of things from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa which have not been based on economics or on materialism. When we are demanding Empire trade, we cannot expect the Empire to exclude the goods which she wants from the United States, in order to buy goods which she does not want from Britain. I believe that Imperial Preference is going to play a very large part in the future development of international trading relations, not only in the British Empire, but in the application of the Marshall Plan, and in the integration of Europe. Surely, some kind of preferential system is to be the next step.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what the Government have in mind. They have made a statement about a united Europe, and the bringing of various countries more closely together. The same thing is being said on the other side of the Atlantic. What does it mean? It will not mean a federation of Western Europe; everyone knows that. Nor will it mean a customs union. The next step will be a preferential system. Is it not reasonable for the Government, in the light of this Debate, to go to Havana and say, "How does this fit in with the Marshall arrangements?" I agree that the Marshall arrangements have not gone through, but the State Department must have some idea of the kind of set-up which they want in Europe. The Americans are always saying that they want something sensible done in Europe. I hope that the right hon.
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Gentleman will indicate in this matter of preference not only within the British Empire but in the Western European field, that the Government will think again and argue their case afresh.
I support the main principle of this Agreement. I hope that the great bulk of opinion in this country will also support it. Rejection of the Geneva Agreement will find satisfaction in very limited circles in the U.S.A. Those who rejected it would be applauded in the Chicago "Tribune," but a rejection of the Agreement would go contrary to those who want co-operation in international affairs, not only in the United States, but in Western Europe, in this country and throughout the whole Commonwealth. They want it, and Canada wants it.
It is all very well laying down documents for international trade, but, in the last resort, our international trading position will depend, not upon international documents, but upon ourselves. We ought to remember that. There are only two kinds of world in which we can live. One is the world of Soviet Russia and her satellites, and the other is the free world outside. If we are to live in the free world, we have to adopt the methods of the free world. What, after all, is the doctrine of the Geneva Agreement? It is not the sort of bilateralism and barter which the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) has talked about. It is not the sort of subsidised export world which Dr. Schacht broadcast in Germany before the war; nor is it the Communist system The doctrine of the Geneva Agreement is that prosperity should go to those nations which rely firstly on their native wit and only secondly on governmental action. Wealth should go to the men of nations which invent new processes and find new markets, and not to those who manage to foist their goods by economic trickery on everyone else.
At one time Britain held the key position in a free trading world, and I use those words in their non-political sense. I am certain that America holds the key position in that world today. I observe, as a matter of history and not of argument, that both in the case of Britain, when she was in that position, and in the case of America today, the principal feature of their domestic economies was the price mechanism and the profit motive. There seems to be some strange

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inconsistency in the Government asking for relatively free world economics and wanting an overplanned economy at home. I cannot see how the two stand together. It is blatant hypocrisy to talk about a system based on price mechanism to govern our export trade, and then talk about planned economy at home.
The Geneva Agreement is only a machine, but it is a machine which has to be used. I support the main principle of it, but I want to see the Government take steps which will make it possible for manufacturers in this country to use that machinery. What is being done to attract American capital to the Commonwealth, to this country or anywhere else? What incentive or inducement is there for risk capital to come in to develop those great resources? There is a lot of talk about capital being necessary, but what are the Government doing about it? The risk is not a commercial risk. It is not a risk based on sterling. It is a political risk that deters it, the fact that at any moment someone may decide to nationalise groundnuts to satisfy doctrinaire beliefs. Who will put money into schemes of that kind?
We want steps taken to restore the price mechanism. What is the good of adopting a trading system when there is inflation in the domestic economy? How are we going to find exports when we have that amount of inflation? Those are the kind of things that want to be done. We criticise the Government not for signing the Agreement, but for failing to take steps which will enable manufacturers and adventurers in this country to put their plan into full effect.
8.30 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: This has certainly been a most interesting Debate and also one of the most extraordinary heard in this House. There have been as many opinions as there have been speakers. Those opinions have differed on both sides of the House, and there does not seem to be, as there usually is, running through the Debate some kind of common measure of agreement on the one side as against a common measure of disagreement on the other.
May I begin with the speech of the Secretary for Overseas Trade, who moved this Motion? He seemed to me to be taking up the position of Touchstone introduce-
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ing his best girl—I believe the modern jargon is "pin-up" girl—by saying, "A poor thing, Sir, but mine own." There was running through his speech a leaning on one side to the main principles and, on the other to the great and many exceptions. It seemed as if he had written up for his guidance a simple creed something like this: "I believe in multilateral trade, in the removal of all restrictions, in the expansion of trade and in nondiscrimination." Those are perfectly simple principles which everybody can understand. He seemed to go on to say, "Those are the principles to guide me." Then someone says, "How are you going to work this?" and he replies, "Wait a moment, I have underneath here a vast book of exceptions to that general rule." What I am wondering is what weighs most with the Government—the general principles or the exceptions? Which are they going to follow?
The trouble with regard to this is that once a system of restrictions is started, one is led on from restriction to restriction. Once one rule is laid down to stop something, a new problem is created and another restriction is wanted to offset the new problem. We have had an experience of that already in our home affairs in this country. Issue one Order in Council to deal with one set of circumstances and that gives rise to another set of circumstances, until you have some thousand of general orders, as is the case today.
I should like to turn for a moment to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton). He was rather like the hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate. He expressed a belief in these general principles, but having expressed that belief, he said, "Of course, they cannot be applied in the modern world with which we have to deal. You have got to deal with the situation as you find it. Men are tough." It is just the same thing as one so often hears with regard to religion, "Of course, Christianity is all right, but you cannot apply it in the modern world to these tough people." So the right hon. Gentleman says, "We will have to abandon that and we must stick wholly to our restrictions, tariffs and quotas as we did before the war." It reminds me of the speeches I have heard before from him and his friends, "We are looking forward to this wonderful promised land when there will be freedom

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for all, with all trading together." As I said on another occasion, it is not really at the promised land that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are looking. It is only that they are holding up a view of a promised land in front of the people, whom they have hitherto deceived.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) accuses the Government of hyprocrisy. He says, in effect, "Look at your policy at home. You are pursuing a restrictive policy, but with the rest of the world you want to open up your trade with everybody and invite everybody to trade with you." But what is the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth? They want a free-for-all situation at home, but restrictions as far as the outside world is concerned. It is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I cannot see any difference between two sorts of hypocrisy.
Let us see what is the position today. Many of the hon. Members who have addressed the House during this Debate have thanked heaven that they are not as their ancestors were, that they have learned wisdom, that they have rid themselves of the old shibboleths of the past when that foolish doctrine of the weak minded, Free Trade, operated. Nevertheless, the very men who are using that argument were boasting of the great position which this country had built up in the world. The right hon. Member for Aldershot pointed out, quite rightly, that 200 years ago only seven million people resided here. By 1950 we shall be 50 million. How has the population of this country grown to that extent? Largely because we did not restrict our communications with the rest of the world. We did not close our gates to anyone. We were ready to trade and help, not only with benefit to ourselves, but with benefit to others also. Today they are reaping that benefit, and in no way do I regret it or am I envious of it.
This was the system by which we were able to buy food and raw materials which enabled this country to grow and hold a population which it could not feed itself, and which it cannot feed today. This was the policy which enabled us to give other countries railways and harbours and to build roads and factories
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as well as give them plant and machinery. Some people seem to regret that today others are in a position to compete with us. I rejoice that the standard of life in every part of the world has risen because of that policy. By opening their gates to us and our gates to them we have, by our own efforts, helped to improve the conditions in the world. That is not a matter for regret. In the main that was done in a period of Free Trade.
What is the position today? Except for ourselves, pretty nearly every country has gone in for restrictive practices. They did what we only began to do in 1914—stop entry across their borders of people who did not happen to be born within their borders. Until that time these shores were open to all, to the benefit of this country and to the salvation of humanity. They, on the other hand, were all the time, by restrictive barriers, trying to live a selfish, isolated life. Because we had expanded in the way we had, and helped our own Dominions, w were able to take a noble and definite part on behalf of democracy in two of the greatest wars in history. Compare the size of this land with any other land in Europe, and compare what this land has done for the rest of the world by going in for a policy of expansion.
That policy is now derided by some hon. Members. Who are they deriding? Not merely the past, not merely the men who used to be in this House, who professed a belief in these doctrines and carried them out, but they are actually deriding more recent people, such as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and the late President of the United States of America. After all, these principles, about which it is today said, "Thank Heavens, they are dead and we have departed from them, for they belong to the eighteenth century and have nothing to do with the modern world," were in paragraphs 4 and 5 of the famous Atlantic Charter Declaration which thrilled the world and brought all democracies together to fight for an ideology. AD our troubles which have since ensued have occurred because of a departure from that ideology. It is only right that I should remind the House of them:
"Four, they will endeavour with due respect for their existing obligations to further the enjoyment by all States, great or small,

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victor or vanquished, of access on equal terms to the trade and the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity.
They desire, fifthly, to bring about the fullest collaboration between all nations in the economic field with the object of securing for all improved labour standards, economic advancement and social security."
Will they sneer at that, which inspired democracy in its greatest moment, and pour contempt upon it? What has happened since? As the right hon. Gentleman the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) very rightly says, efforts have been made by the nations of the world to translate that into realities. That is why I supported Bretton Woods. I would like the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, who will be replying soon, to tell me whether they intend to go on with that, to do their best to uphold it and to bring it into actual being throughout the world. Not only did I support that, but I supported also the American Loan because that was also a part of this idea that we should be helping one another in order to advance our standard of life. I see no harm in having done so. Very rightly an hon. Gentleman opposite called attention to the fact that we had given in the past century and a half, and given willingly, a sum which has come to anything between £3,000 million and £4,000 million, for which we have had the best of all returns, an indirect advantage and the knowledge that the standard of life in those countries has improved.
I turn to what took place at Geneva. It is good to know that 23 countries came together there from the five Continents of Australiasia, Asia, Africa, America, and Europe, and that 23 nations of all types and all races, from the Chinese to us in Britain, could agree upon the words which appear as a preamble to Appendix A. Those I presume are the principles which will guide them and which have brought them together into a common building to see how they can assist one another and to try to benefit the world:
"Recognising that their relations in the field of trade and economic endeavour should be conducted with a view to raising standards of living, ensuring full employment and a large and steadily growing volume of real income and effective demand, developing the
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full use of the resources of the world and expanding the production and exchange of goods."
Will anybody quarrel with that? That is the main principle underlying this—
"Being desirous of contributing to those objectives by entering into reciprocal and mutually advantageous arrangements directed to the substantial reduction of tariffs and other barriers to trade and to the elimination of discriminatory treatment in international commerce."
Who dare say in the face of that, that non-discrimination is a past shibboleth and dead?
In this shrinking world the population is multiplying rapidly, and standards of life are rising, except in devastated, torn Europe. We cannot expect it there with people starving after having come through a devastating war of six years. Take the East. Take America. Even here the population still rises. Even if the standard of life is not rising, there is still a strong urge to see it increasing. What does that mean? It means that there is a greater demand than ever for food, and a greater demand than ever for materials and for the goods those people desire. What is also happening at this moment is that the amount of food that can be spared by countries which used to be able to spare it is getting less and less, and the struggle for that food will became more and more intense. We in this country are in the position that, do what we will, under our modern system of agriculture we can only feed half our population. [Interruption.] I said our modern method of agriculture. Before the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Baldwin) and I are dead, I hope there will be changes in that method of agriculture in order to increase the quantity of food which can be raised here.
That is our present position. What, therefore, is wanted? Not restrictions on trade, which underlie this Agreement all the time—not quotas—but an expansion everywhere of that trade so that we can, as we have done in the past, enter into contracts with all and sundry the world over. That, and not a policy of restriction, ought to be the basis. What else do we want? We want, without a doubt—that is why I am so anxious about Bretton Woods—a monetary exchange whereby we can, in our trading with one another, find out easily and fairly what the values are that we are giving and

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exchanging. Those are the two things we want.
Those are the principles which guide me, subject, of course, to this, that today with the position of the world as it is, we cannot have unregulated trading; we must bring the nations together, as 23 of them were brought together at Geneva. We have to learn, in order that we may gain greater freedom, to surrender part of our sovereignty; and to surrender it to some great authority in which we have all got confidence that it will look after not only our own interests but the interests of everybody else. That is the true meaning of these Agreements, and those are the things I want to see carried out.
I want to ask the President of the Board of Trade this: what part did our own people play at Geneva? We should have been the first to press forward for this, urging it with all our efforts, with all the sincerity that was in us. Rumour has it that we played not a driving part but a braking part, holding back, and that but for the enthusiasm of the Dominions—but for Canada, Australia, South Africa and India, this conference might have been a failure and a disaster instead of accomplishing what it has accomplished. Is that true? If that rumour is true, that the delegation from this country was not helping, and certainly not leading in an endeavour to get a world agreement upon these matters, not prepared to give up certain of its rights in order to gain more, then it is time that that policy was changed on the Front Bench opposite and by His Majesty's Government. I think it is untrue, for it is only in this way, by getting a general world agreement, that I can see prosperity coming back not only to this country but to the world and, the ending of those jealousies which have been created by barriers too narrow and national, so that they created envies and jealousies that ultimately led to war. What we want is fair play and justice for all, peace and propserity for the world.
8.52 p.m.
Mr. J. S. C. Reid: It is plain that this has been a bad day for this Agreement. I have not detected unqualified support in any part of the House except perhaps in the Liberal Party, and even there I doubt if their support is unqualified. There is no doubt
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that In all other quarters there has been very closely reasoned opposition to some of the provisions in these Agreements—
Mr. Mikardo: What about the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft)?
Mr. Reid: The hon. Member for Monmouth was perhaps as favourable as most in this House, but he made it clear that his objections would make him vote for the Amendment, and I am not surprised.
All, however—except, again, perhaps the Liberal Party—must start from this obvious, inescapable fact, that the prosperity and, indeed, the very existence of this nation is in the greatest peril, that a rapid and large increase in our overseas trade is the only way out, and that the main question before us tonight is: how far, if at all, do these documents help us to achieve that rapid and immediate increase in our trade? It is plain that the state of trade of this country is unprecedentedly difficult and complex. I shall not inquire on this occasion how these difficulties have arisen, or whether they could have been avoided by better management. That can be left to another occasion. The fact is that they are there and we have to try to see how we can overcome them.
On these matters I think we must always put before ourselves two questions: first, what kind of a world do we hope to see when we emerge from the shadows; secondly, what can we do now, or in the immediate future, to alleviate our present troubles? As things become darker and more difficult, of course the second question becomes more urgent and the first question becomes more difficult to answer. Nevertheless we must try to answer it. We must try to see what objectives we are endeavouring to reach. Do let our objective be something we can reasonably expect to reach within a measurable period.
My first objection to these documents is that they set out an objective which, however desirable it may be, certainly cannot be fully accomplished within any reasonable period. We ought not to overdo the precision and detail of the picture we draw of the future. I do not believe that anybody can predict with any certainty how things are going to develop. If we put in too much precision, it will simply cause unnecessary difficulties and

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adjustments when we find things turn out rather differently from what we anticipated. There is an even more serious objection to over-elaborating the picture. It undoubtedly tends to create the impression that the sunshine is not far away, that this objective will be reached within a comparatively short time and with comparatively little difficulty. Of course, there is nothing here so crudely misleading as the story of "rounding recovery corner," but, on the other hand, this document will be taken seriously, and we must try to see that it does not afford grounds for people being misled.
A great deal of the document is very good, and a great deal of the machinery is good. I am in no position to express an opinion in detail about the concessions which have been given or obtained in the course of the negotiations. I am quite willing to believe that we have had a square deal, I do not know; but I say that the other provisions in the agreement, in particular Article I and Articles XI to XIV, are in the long run more important than any immediate results of bargaining as to reductions of tariffs to one country and another. I hope the proceedings at Havana will be influenced by the fact that most of these provisions have been riddled in the course of this Debate. This document takes the form of certain general principles, coupled with escape clauses. My right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr Lyttelton) explained how that had come about historically, but it is extremely unfortunate. It would be an appropriate method of framing an agreement of this kind if we expected that we need only make use of the escape clauses for a comparatively short time, but it is bound to lead at last to disappointment, if not to a certain coolness, or even ill will, if we go on relying on these escape clauses year after year.
I pass to examination of what we have to achieve before we can give them up, and we have to achieve a great deal. Admittedly on the face of the document we have to achieve equilibrium, in itself a very long way away, and a very hard goal to attain. That means that there will be no more hard or soft currencies in the world. There cannot be equilibrium so long as there are exchange controls. It means, therefore, that the Government must anticipate that not only are we to
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reach an era when all currencies are hard, but that we are to reach an era when we can dispense with all these exchange controls. If that is so, I believe that all other detailed controls will go with them because one cannot stand without the other. I believe that there is an immensely long road to travel before we can achieve real equilibrium. I am not at the moment touching upon the fundamental problem of how we are to balance our payments. That comes before anything else. We cannot pretend to have equilibrium until we have solved that problem.
The Government have put time limits in these escape clauses. The Secretary for Overseas Trade told us that after next year there will be provisions for examination and review. After four years there will be provisions under which we cannot act at all unless we have the concurrence of the majority of the contracting parties. Do the Government really think that we shall reach true equilibrium within that period along the lines they have adopted at the moment? It may be that if they mended their ways and adopted some other economic policy we might be able to reach the goal within that period. I do not think that any one can reach the goal on present lines within the period set down in this Agreement.
I will give one simple illustration. There is a very detailed examination and report by the Committee of European Economic Co-operation which lays down extremely detailed figures right down to 1951, figures which do not take into account the dollar shortage because they are all put forward on the footing that there are plenty of dollars. They do not indicate much equilibrium. I should have thought it was extremely difficult to reconcile those figures with this conception. Of course, if the Government think that we can really reach equilibrium, that we can really reach a balance of payments, that we can really abolish restrictions of all sorts which hamper both trade and the passage of money across frontiers—that we can really reach that position within four years—then it is intelligible that we should have the particular form of this Agreement. However, it is much more likely that there is a pretty long struggle ahead of us, and that a good deal of organisation will have to be done before we reach that desirable day when each nation can stand economically on its own feet, and

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when it is not necessary to have any association of nations or States for economic purposes, because any such association is rendered wholly ineffective by the provisions of these Agreements.
I should have thought that we ought to be looking forward to an ordered sequence of progress from our present sad state to something—if you will—like the picture in this Agreement, but this Agreement does not help us to get there. All this immense amount of work which we shall have to do, all this immense amount of struggle in which we shall have to engage before we reach this Agreement, we shall have to do without any help from the Agreement. We shall have to have a much more flexible arrangement than this Agreement would permit.
I do not like an undue amount of discrimination, but I think that, not only in the present troubled state of the world, but in any reasonable period of years in the future, it is impossible to be certain that there will not be conditions under which some measure of discrimination is necessary. Nobody wants discrimination as a whole to increase, indeed, we wish it to decrease, but it may well happen that while one form of discrimination goes clown on the one side, there may be very good reasons for raising, for the time being, some other form of discrimination in some other direction. That is forbidden. Therefore, the flexibility—which is essential if we are to be ready to meet all manner of circumstances which we cannot foresee—is denied to us.
There are two systems, one in being and one in prospect, which are, if not prevented, at least very seriously hampered by the terms of this Agreement. I refer to the economic system of the British Commonwealth—Imperial Preference—and the system which I think all quarters of the House hope will he established in one form or another—co-operation or association between the Powers of Western Europe and their overseas dependencies. This agreement makes nonsense of the second, and seriously hampers the first. I do not believe that these two systems are in the least bit exclusive of each other, or of others who do not belong to either. I believe it is perfectly possible to work the Imperial Commonwealth system along with the Western European system—the two working into each other—and that it is possible
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to work both of them without in any way excluding those outside. There may, and there will probably have to be, a considerable measure of discrimination, one way or another, in the working of both of these systems, if they are to effective.
It has been said that small economic units are out of place in the modern world. I am not sure I take quite such a gloomy view as that, but it is quite clear that most of them will want a good deal of rehabilitation before they can stand on their own feet. This agreement excludes any such rehabilitation, otherwise than by direct aid through the Marshall Plan. We are not allowed to help ourselves by association with our neighbours and by planning some sort of economic association short of a customs union. For some reason a customs union, which is very exclusive and discriminatory against those outside, is all right, but a looser form of union is all wrong. That is a thing which I cannot understand.
I should hope that discrimination will be confined within moderate limits. I think, referring to the Commonwealth, our system of Imperial Preference has always been confined within moderate limits. If the words are used not in any narrow or technical sense, but in a broad and popular sense, there is nothing whatever inconsistent between the British system of preference and multilateral trading. If multilateral trading means we are going to trade, not perhaps on exactly the same basis, but effectively, and in a large volume in all parts of the world, then the Imperial Preference system has not been inconsistent with multilateral, trading, and will not be so in the future.
Therefore, the statement that it is necessary to abolish all forms of discrimination in order to reach multilateral trading is founded upon a technical and narrow meaning. I would like to look for a moment at this foul thing, discrimination, and to see just what it amounts to. I fear—and I plead guilty to doing this myself very often—that many of us begin using a word and we get some specific meaning of it into our heads. Somebody else uses the word and we do not realise that they are using it with a different meaning. Then we get at loggerheads, whereas if we tried to express the thing in a number of shorter words, instead of relying on one tag, we might perhaps come nearer to agreement.

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I would like to explain what I mean by discrimination, and what I believe is the best meaning to attach to it. I think that, whenever we have a Government who, by their actions, make it more difficult for trader A to trade with trader B, than it is for him to trade with trader C, that is discrimination. It does not matter where B and C are. Therefore, if trader A is, let us say, in New York, trader C is in California, and trader B is in Britain, then the American tariff system is discrimination against B in Britain. I do not object. It is for the Americans to settle their own affairs. I see nothing to criticise in the least in the fact that they discriminate against persons outside the 48 States of the Union. Why should they not do that if they wish? There are very good reasons why they should.
But, in the same way, why should not we, trading with either the Colonies or the Dominions, have discrimination as between that trading link and trading between this country and, it may be, America, South America or any other part of the world? It would be a great pity, and it would injure both parties, if in either case the discrimination was too great; and it may be that the ideal is that there should be no discrimination at all, neither tariff, preference, protection nor regulation. That may be so, but in this imperfect world of ours—and it will be imperfect for quite a time to come—I should have thought that it was visionary, to say the least, to suppose that we should reach that result within any measurable time. Indeed, this Agreement does not contemplate that. Therefore, we must take it that there are circumstances where a moderate discrimination is beneficial. There may be circumstances where it is vital, but it should take a moderate form.
I agree that we want to get rid of prohibitions and quotas, and that kind of thing, as soon as we possibly can. It cannot be done immediately but I would not dissent from the statement that we should do it as soon as we can. I consider that this Agreement contemplates too rigid a timetable, and I doubt if it will work. But, at the end of the day, prohibitions are bad, whether they be by direct Government action or by having so large a tariff that it cannot be got over—it does not matter very much because, in either case, trade is prevented. Quotas are not
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much better. We must wait until we have the circumstances in which these things can be abolished, and those circumstances involve an immense change in the present economic outlook not only of this country but of many others. We must be careful how we make our plans dependent on the abolition of these matters.
I pass now to the matter of Imperial Preference, and I think that one ought to start by saying that the position of the Mutual Aid Agreement, as explained by the covering letter, if I may call it that, is the furthest that we ought to go. Elimination of all forms of discriminatory treatment, reservation on Imperial Preference and reduction of tariffs and other trade barriers seem to me to be the right objective, provided we do not try to achieve it at a time when economic conditions make that impossible. But these documents do not appear to reserve Imperial Preference in the sense that, if certain circumstances arise when that Preference should be increased in one direction and perhaps reduced in another, we cannot do it.
It is a one-way traffic, and, if Imperial Preference is a suitable method of acting in our circumstances, something similar—I do not say the same thing at all, but something of that kind—may be wanted when we come to think out a system for Western Europe. I would never say that I thought our system of Imperial Preference was sacrosanct and never to be touched. That would be foolish, but I do say that both that system and a system of tariffs, and, indeed, all other discrimination, ought to move as the times require, and that there ought not to be discrimination against Preference as in a question with tariffs. I say so, for this reason.
Let us consider the relative position of the United States and the British Commonwealth. Politically, the 48 States are united under a central Government with a fairly rigid constitution; economically, they are surrounded by a ring fence with tariffs at the gate, which goes well with their political set-up. That is perfectly all right, and nobody objects or criticises: it is an admirable scheme suited to their conditions. We, on the other hand, have a much looser political organisation, and, therefore, we have a much looser economic organisation. We do not have a ring fence round the

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British Empire, but we do have a system of preferences as between different parts of the Commonwealth. It seems to me, in the different political and physical circumstances of these two great associations of English-speaking people, that these two methods of economic defence correspond with the other factors in the situation, and we simply cannot accept a document which does not recognise that our method is as valid as anybody else's. We think that this document may very well hinder the economic development of the Commonwealth, because it does not allow for the emergence of possible, and even probable, circumstances in which some switch will be necessary of our present methods of discrimination.
We agree—at least, all my hon. Friends who have spoken have agreed—that it is going to make extremely difficult any political integration, on the lines discussed last week, if we are forbidden to accompany that by any measure of economic integration, short of a customs union. Therefore, on both these grounds, that it is hampering the development of the British Commonwealth and the establishment of a Western Union, we think that this is a bad Agreement. We agree that there are good parts in it, but we hope that, in the light of this Debate, when matters come to be further pursued in Havana, the Government will see that they do not enter into any further commitments there which make more difficult, in this already difficult world, the development of either the British Empire or Western Europe.
9.21 p.m.
The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): I think it is always a sign that the Tory Party is more than usually bankrupt in policy, and more than usually divided in its ranks, when they put up the right hon. and learned Gentleman to wind up, because—
Captain Crookshank: Most offensive from a new boy.
Mr. Wilson: —he has a genius for covering up division in its ranks. I think he has done so in the speech we have just heard. He was helped in this by the Amendment on the Order Paper. It is almost a self-contradictory formula, and one which seems to be capable of bringing under its umbrella, first of all,
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the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), whose approach to the problem was one at which no one could grumble, and, secondly, the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), who took an entirely different line from that taken by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Member for Aldershot said he thought the multilateral approach was ultimately right, but that it was far too early to be moving towards it. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen said that it was never right, and could not be right, and put forward a scheme which is entirely different from that contemplated by the right hon. Gentleman.
Then the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft), bearing out what he has recently been writing, seemed to support, in general, the lines of the Geneva Agreements, though he had one or two reservations to make. The Debate, which one has to admit, on both sides, has cut right across party lines, has dealt mostly with the Charter, with the General Agreement, and with the general principles of the Charter and the General Agreement, rather than with the tariff deal and with the concessions granted by one side and another at Geneva on tariffs or on preferences. I want to say a word or two about tariffs and preferences because they were raised by the right hon. Member for Aldershot, and mentioned by one or two other hon. Members.
The right hon. Gentleman quoted figures from the White Paper and said that the total amount of trade involved in the concessions given by ourselves amounted to £130 million, whereas the total amount of trade on which we gained concessions amounted only to £92 million. He also said that this would suggest, prima facie, that we had had the worst of the deal, though he said it was never possible to be very sure about that. I entirely agree. We cannot use these figures to prove whether we have made a good or a bad deal. For instance, it is a fact that the figure he used includes a substantial amount of trade in raw materials and food which was coming into this country duty free, and we have bound the rates of duty on them. I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman would agree that it would be very much to the disadvantage of this country to contemplate increasing the rates of duty on, for in-

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stance, the basic raw materials which we need for our manufactures.
Another reason why it could never be more than rough and ready, and why it is completely misleading, is that these are the figures of trade set at risk, not the figures of trade which is lost. It would include a certain amount of trade, for instance, in motor cycles in Australia; on which we have given up our preference. I do not think it is likely, having given up our preference in Australia, that we are going to lose trade there, because we do actually sell motor cycles in the United States without much difficulty. It does not follow at all that there is going to be no loss at all on items of that kind, but I think there has been, perhaps, too much of a feeling tonight that the concessions we have given on our preferential trade with other Commonwealth countries really represent a serious inroad into Imperial Preference.
The concessions given relate to about 30 per cent. of our preferential trade with other Commonwealth countries, or 16 per cent. of our total trade—the total figures on which we have made any concessions at all. But if we take the figures on which we have agreed to eliminate preference, they cover only 5 per cent. of our preferential trade and only about 2½ per cent. of our total Commonwealth trade. I think, therefore, that one must be using one's imagination to pretend that a limitation of 2½ per cent. represents a serious inroad into Imperial Preference.
Mr. Lyttelton: Will the right hon. Gentleman discuss the items in the areas in which Imperial Preference is bound?
Mr. Wilson: I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman is referring to our own tariffs or Commonwealth tariffs. If the right hon. Gentleman is talking about our own tariffs, they are preferences granted to Commonwealth friends, with their agreement, at their request, and that is part of the deal they were concluding with other countries. I do want to make it plain that right through these Conference discussions we had the fullest consultation with the Dominions; and in fact, in the last few weeks of the Conference, when we were dealing day by day with tariff deals, we did actually go through them
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with all the other Commonwealth countries concerned, line by line and item by item, and their complete agreement on every item and every line was obtained before any offer was made.
On the other hand, we have gained concessions in a number of markets—none of them spectacular, I would readily admit right away. But on the United States tariff there has been a concession on 3,400 items covering trade valued at 1,800 million dollars in 1939, 78 per cent. of the total trade. It is too early to say whether that has been a major concession in terms of the trade we can hope to gain. We are certainly getting help in our linen and woollen trades. I hope we shall get the benefit later on for our worsteds, china ware and whisky, when supply catches up with demand, which it has not yet. There are substantial concessions given to other members of the sterling area; particularly the concessions on wool, meat, butter, and so on, concerning some of the Dominions.
Hon. Members who have been in touch with a large range of British industry, as many hon. Members on the opposite side of the House have, I know, in connection with the Geneva Agreement, will already be finding in quite small industries how very useful the concessions are in opening up new markets abroad. In many cases, they are finding them of real help getting into the North American markets for the first time. I can give one example. I have had a letter from one of the firms concerned in the worsted and woollen industry. They have received from New York the full details of the new tariff agreement on worsted and woollen piece goods. They write that the firm had been critical of the Board of Trade as being unable to handle our export trade, but seeing how the job has been done, they intend to be among the first to congratulate us. They say:
"We congratulate all concerned who have taken a share in that job. On the new basis, though still high, there is a long-term prospect of reasonable trade in the American market on high-class and specialist lines. We should like to congratulate the negotiators on the results of their labours, and to thank them. This is the first time that we have felt that real support has been given to us in our export drive."
Before leaving that subject, I say that it would be wrong for any of us to discuss this as though the concessions given, and the attacks made on preference or

1321
on our tariffs, have been simply a battle between ourselves and the United States. A large number of countries was represented at Geneva, and attacks on individual items in our tariff, and certainly on individual items in our preference list, came, to a very considerable extent, from the nations of Western Europe, with whom hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to see us developing our trade.
I would be the first to admit that the Charter, whether in its wording—to which the right hon. Member for Aldershot referred—or in all its content, is certainly not perfect; but it does represent the best level of agreement we were able to get after a very long-drawn-out and difficult conference. There are a number of points in it, referred to by my hon. Friends, about which no one can feel completely happy. For instance, I am not happy about the provisions on tied loans, which were referred to by the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) and the hon. Member for East Aberdeen; but we were not able to gain our point on that, and did not regard it as something we should push to breaking point. Certain others, such as the very necessary escape clauses on non-discrimination during the transitional years which lie ahead, we should have had to push to breaking point in the conference. Similarly, had there been an undue attack on our preference, such as would destroy the basis of a fair deal on both sides, we should have had to resist that to breaking point.
The main criticism we have heard tonight has been that the agreements drawn up at Geneva, now being discussed at Havana, are long-term, and have no relevance to present conditions. There has been particular criticism that we are tied down prematurely to obligations on non-discrimination, and that nothing is being done to restore the fundamental unbalance of world payments. I do not disagree with that point of view. However, this is essentially a long-term scheme; it is an attempt to legislate in advance for buyers' market conditions. It is an attempt which we must make now, or we may entirely miss the opportunity of seeing that end achieved; it is an attempt now to see that the world does not drift back into the vicious spiral we had in prewar days, of protective quotas,
1322
unilaterial self-frustrating measures, rising tariff barriers, competitive currency devaluation, and similar measures. I would be the first to agree that the Charter will not work or solve the problems of the world on its own. It certainly will not work unless we can find some solution to the world dollar problem; and that is why the various other measures—the Marshall Plan, measures for various international agencies, schemes for world development, the work done by the International Fund, by the Food and Agriculture Organisation, the International Bank, and, above all, any measures that can be taken by individual nations, groups of nations, or by international agencies for the restoration and production of the old world—are absolutely essential. I agree, therefore, with the views expressed by many hon. Members that this scheme will not, of itself, solve the problems of world trade.
That is what I said at Geneva in the Plenary Session, that unless we could solve these other problems much of the work done at Geneva would have been wasted. I went on to relate the measures we ourselves propose to follow, and would have to follow as a condition of our survival, which include many of the measures dealt with in the Opposition Amendment. I want to make it quite clear that what happened at Geneva has not tied our hands and prevented us from doing just those things we need to do in the immediate months and years ahead in order to ensure our own national survival.
Let me tell the House why we think this is the right solution to the world problem and to our national problem as a long-term measure. Certainly no country was worse hit than this country in the interwar period—in the 1930's—by protective quotas, competitive currency devaluations and all these other things. It is too easily forgotten that our trade is made up of a very large number of separate consignments to a very large number of destinations. It is not true to suggest that a large part of our trade is necessarily concentrated in any one part of the world. For instance, in 1947, our export trade was made up of something like 3 million separate packages of trade. It is perfectly obvious that quotas and discriminatory action taken by overseas governments can have the most serious effect on our exports.

1323
The second reason why we support this as a long-term measure is because it provides limited assistance for increasing exports to dollar areas. Thirdly, it is very important in that it provides an organisation for the nations to get together and discuss world-trade problems. As the hon. Member for Monmouth said, it provides a set of rules—and these rules may have to be amended as we go forward—instead of individual countries slapping on quotas and new tariffs without reference to the effect on other nations. We now have an organisation whereby any country thinking of acting in such a way, has to prove its case before the other nations, many of whom will be affected by its actions.
We had, up to 1931, as many hon. Members have said, what was virtually an automatically working gold standard, a system which, with all its faults, did work. That went in 1931, and in its place we had nothing. The postwar problem is to set up, by international conferences and organisations, something to take its place, because there is no hope and no desire of going back to the old pre-1931 gold standard. Certainly this method of the 1930's failed so far as this country was concerned. Let us take the case of the cotton industry, to which many hon. Members have referred in this Debate. In spite of the preferences, Colonial quotas and one thing and another, the export of cotton piecegoods in 1938, after seven years of trying to save that industry from the worst effects of overseas discrimination, were the lowest for any year since 1850, that is to say, for Nearly 90 years.
It is too often claimed by hon. Members opposite that the policies they introduced in lieu of the gold standard looked like solving the problem of our export trade. They have said several times that preferences really saved the trade so far as our Empire is concerned. I ask them not to say that too often, because they may come to believe it. It does not happen to be true. There was an improvement in trade from 1932 to 1937. It was an improvement in world trade, due to the trade-cycle recovery over that period. If we compare 1930, which was a year of depression, with the year 1938, we find that the volume of British export trade was actually 17 per cent. less 1938. It is
1324
certainly not true that the measures taken solved the problem over that period. It is not even true to say that these measures increased our exports to the Commonwealth, because our total value of Commonwealth trade in 1938 was less than in 1930.
Therefore, we have to look to other things, not entirely to supplant, but certainly to supplement some of the measures which hon. Members opposite were supporting in those days. I have already said that the Geneva draft is still, from our point of view, in no sense perfect. I think many hon. Members have agreed that it is a great improvement, from the British point of view, on the earlier draft that has been debated in this House. Some of the struggles at Geneva to free our hands in the very difficult years ahead on the question of non-discrimination have certainly improved this measure from our point of view.
We have now three suggestions in front of us, so far as non-discrimination is concerned. Under the general agreement, we have freedom in the matter of discrimination up to the end of 1948. At the end of 1948, it is hoped that we shall have a somewhat clearer idea of the world balance of payments position. So long as any country has a balance of payments difficulty up to 1952, the right of discrimination is accorded, subject to the right of other countries to complain and subject to a fair hearing and agreement in the Organisation.
After 1952—which the right hon. Gentleman said, not unfairly, seemed to be an arbitrary date—action of this kind requires the prior approval of the International Trade Organisation. We think that is right. We have to think in this matter not only about our own rights, and impose conditions on our imports; we have to think too of our position as an exporting nation. Unless, after 1952, we can be pretty certain that our exports will be sold abroad, and not frustrated by any of these measures of import restrictions and other things all too prevalent at the present time, no amount of freedom in respect of our import trade will save the day for us if we are unable, because of Government action abroad, to see our exports.
It has been suggested today that the Agreement envisaged at Geneva prevented us from taking a whole series of measures

1325
immediately necessary for our survival. As the right hon. Member for Aldershot has said, it was important to develop a sense of the practical. It has been suggested that we were prevented from entering into necessary bilateral agreements which we need in the next year or two. The hon. Member for Monmouth seems doubtful about the value of some of these, and was afraid that they might frustrate our long-term multilateral needs. I think that, after some of the work on which I have been engaged during the last two or three months, no one will accuse me of being a doctrinaire multilateralist, nor one who will shrink from bilateral dealings with any country in the world prepared to enter into a reasonable deal with us.
There is nothing in the letter or spirit of the Geneva Agreement which would deny us, or any other nation in similar circumstances, from making bilateral arrangements. At Geneva, we warned the other nations that we would regard that as necessary to our economic policy. We have not been slow in entering into such a policy. I think that the best answer to the fears expressed is the facts of our policy in bilateral matters since the end of the Geneva Conference. Last week, I gave details to the Press of some 17 trade negotiations which we have had with individual countries since August—since the preparation of this Charter. In fact, we have actually concluded agreements with 22 countries since August. We have talks now going on, or which will soon be going on, with a further 10 different countries. We are, in fact, prepared to have talks with any country that has useful goods to send us, and which is prepared to take our own goods, and work out with us appropriate means of payment.
The Amendment has referred to Western Europe, in which we have a special interest. Our willingness to conduct trade talks is not limited to Western Europe. It has extended already to many countries in Eastern Europe, and to countries in North and South America. This policy is not inconsistent with the Agreement drawn up at Geneva. These agreements were enabling manufacturers to return to buyers' market conditions. These bilateral agreements are designed to increase the total flow of trade between world countries in a period of shortage. There are many things we have got which
1326
we would not willingly export in ordinary times, and we only export them now because, in return, we get something which we need more.
Mr. Warbey: I do not quite follow my right hon. Friend's point that these bilateral agreements are only required under sellers' market conditions. Surely, it is later on when buyers' market conditions prevail that it will be most important for us, as for every country, to have guaranteed markets for exports.
Mr. Wilson: The kind of bilateral agreements concluded now are appropriate solely to sellers' market conditions because they bring into the world markets the goods which would normally be consumed in the country of origin. I would warn my hon. Friend that these are not patterns for long-term agreements in conditions of a buyers' market. There were a number of rather exclusive bilateral agreements concluded by His Majesty's Government before the war. Generally the form of them was that the Government said to some countries, like Denmark, "If you will take not less than a certain proportion of our coal we will take not less than a certain proportion of your butter." One result of that was to drive the Polish coal and other coal to the Mediterranean, making our export position there worse.
I feel that much of our trade, spread as it is over such a wide range, is not capable of being progressed through bilateral trade agreements. As I have already said, our exports last year were made up of three million separate packages of goods, and I cannot conceive of any bilateral technique—and I have some experience of it in recent months—in which it is possible to include in the trade agreement that wide range of goods which we shall be wanting to sell.
There is another important part of our bilateral agreements, and it is that we are leading the way, and preparing the way, for the kind of trading system we want to see. An important part of each agreement we make is that it is an attempt to remove or relax some of the strangling import restrictions placed on our trade by other countries. We have had a fair measure of success in this in Sweden, and I hope in the case of many other negotiations we shall see our trade freed from these restrictions. Giving these facts is the best answer to the argument that our

1327
freedom is limited in these critical days in the matter of bilateral agreements.
The same is true of what has been said about the Marshall Plan and economic co-operation in Western Europe. It has been suggested that what is being proposed for Western Europe is completely inconsistent and incompatible with what has been laid down in this Charter and Agreement. At least, Mr. Marshall and the United States Administration do not think they are inconsistent, because they are supporting both proposals at the present time. I feel that, perhaps, hon. Members opposite tend to think of economic co-operation, whether for Western Europe, the Empire or anywhere else, purely in terms of tariffs, tariff agreements and preferential agreements. The modern outlook on this economic co-operation between nations or groups of nations goes far beyond such considerations.
That, of course, is the mainspring of the Marshall Plan and of the work that has been and is being done in Western Europe. Certainly we have seen no inconsistency between the long-term proposals of Geneva and the short-term proposals which have been worked out in Paris. His Majesty's Government made a practical approach to this problem last summer and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has certainly taken a lead in these matters. He has given evidence of the very firm intention of the Government to develop, in the closest co-operation with other Western European countries, the enormous opportunity offered to us in Western Europe generally by this Plan. Indeed, in the work done at Paris, with the good will of all the countries there, one of the main aims was to set up, both as between the 16 participating countries and the rest of the world, a sound and balanced multilateral trading system based on the principles which guided the framing of the draft Charter at Geneva. Certainly we agree that, in the conditions in which Europe finds herself today, it is not possible to run before we can walk, but the cooperation that we have seen in the past few months shows that we are at least helping one another to learn to walk and also that we are walking in the right direction.
1328
The main line of attack on these Agreements has been the suggestion that the concessions made at Geneva on preferences virtually mean the end of the British Empire. That particular statement has not been made here today, although it was made in certain sections of the Opposition Press about the time of the publication of the Geneva Agreement. We on this side have never believed that the bonds which have kept the Commonwealth together have been based on the cash nexus of Imeprial Preference. The common traditions of this country and the Empire go far beyond the introduction of Imperial Preference.
Some of the things I have heard at various times about the wrangles at Ottawa and elsewhere about preferences seem to have done more to endanger the Empire than to cement it together, but to say that the bargains entered into at Geneva represent a weakening of the links of Empire is fantastic and just hysterical. When, as I have said, we have eliminated preferences on the total volume of trade amounting to only two and a half per cent. of our pre-war Imperial trade, we can see how completely unfounded that suggestion is. Yet we can read in the "Daily Express" in big capital letters:
"The Big Bad Bargain is sealed. The Big Bad Pact is made. The citadel of Imperial Preference is breached."
The suggestion is that the Empire is rapidly dissolving. Whatever may be thought by the Opposition Party in this connection, the Empire certainly does not think so. The hon. Member for Monmouth mentioned the very keen interest of Canada in what is being done at Geneva. If there was more time, I would have liked to have a discussion with the hon. Member for East Aberdeen to ask him whether in the area of economic unity he envisages, Canada would form a part, because if Canada would form a part he would have to approach this matter with a very different economic philosophy from the one he propounded today.
Let us take what has been said in the Commonwealth Parliaments in this connection. Mr. Walter Nash, a very great friend of this country and a member of a Government whose friendship and whose practical help in the past few years goes

1329
far above and beyond any considerations of tariffs and preferences, said, when he was challenged on the matter in the New Zealand Parliament:
"Where preferences have been amended or altered in any way, they have been amended or altered after discussion and by agreement with all the countries in the British Commonwealth, and although it is not good to say this, they have been beneficial, and if anyone has got the best of the bargain, I think we have got it."
He meant the Commonwealth countries. In answer to a supplementary question, he said:
"There is not a chance of anything being done by this Government that will breach the relations of New Zealand with the old country."
We ourselves subscribe to that. If there were time, could give similar quotations from other Commonwealth Ministers.
What hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have failed to see this evening is that our economic links with other Commonwealth countries now and in the period since Geneva are far stronger than they have ever been before. At the concluding plenary session at Geneva, I gave clear notice that we should find it necessary to strengthen our economic links with other Commonwealth countries and I can quite faithfully tell the House that in the last five months there has been more concrete evidence of close and really effective Commonwealth economic co-operation than in the whole of the 20 years of the inter-war period.
Let us look at some of the facts. First, there was the Sterling Area Conference in which the various sterling area countries got together as a team to work out combined methods of dealing with the dollar problem because it was a problem common to them all. [An HON. MEMBER: "There is no sterling area."] With the co-operation of the Dominions concerned we have pushed up our rate of food purchases from the Dominions to the absolute limit set by our available supplies. We bought 7 million cwt. of meat from New Zealand last year compared with less than 5½ million cwt. in 1938, and if there were any more available I am sure my right hon. Friend would have been the first to go for it. Our agreements with South Africa and Australia, our trade negotiations with Canada at a time of great economic difficulty for Canada, should give the lie to the idea that, as a result
1330
of Geneva, we have weakened our links with the Empire.
Next, take the case of Rhodesian tobacco. This has been quoted very much in relation to Preference concessions. It is true that we have made a concession on Rhodesian tobacco. The present preference falls from 1s. 6½d. to 1s. if the revenue duty is reduced to the level prevailing before April, 1947—and we hear moans that we have sold the Rhodesian tobacco producers down the stream, breaking another link of Empire. What are the facts? Our tobacco manufacturers have just concluded a long-term development and purchase agreement for Rhodesian tobacco covering 5 years ahead—the biggest thing we have ever done in the Rhodesian tobacco trade—providing that we purchase two-thirds of Rhodesian tobacco exports on an expanded production. Before the war we were importing about 18 million lb.; this year we shall hope to get about 29 million lb.; next year, if all goes well with the production, about 37 million lb.—double the prewar rate.
Let us take timber, hardwoods. The House knows our dependence on dollar sources for hardwoods—[An HON. MEMBER: "Where is it?"] We have turned from dollar sources to our Colonies in Africa. From Nigeria our prewar imports were 1,100,000 cubic feet; this year they were 2.8 million cubic feet. From the Gold Coast they were 413,000 cubic feet before the war; 3¼ million cubic feet this year. Where we have not been able to get more out of the Colonies because of the deficiency in rail and port facilities, we have actually gone in and done our best to improve those facilities.
I need not say what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food is doing in food development in West Africa—[Interruption.]—more than ever the Tory Government did. [An HON. MEMBER: "Ask the housewife."] It will be realised that we are having to do this at a time when the rails, the locomotives, the wagons, all the equipment and machinery required for developing these areas, are in a state of acute shortage, when we need them at home, when we are criticised by the Opposition for exporting any of them and yet, because these were not exported in the spacious days before the war when these things were in surplus, when the workers who could make them were unemployed—because of that we are

1331
having to export them now and, even so, we are doing more development than was ever done by the Party opposite.
So I leave this question to be judged on facts and not on theory—whether the Geneva Agreement is in fact preventing us from having the Empire development, the bilateral trade agreements, co-operation with Western Europe, which this country has set as its programme for the imme-
diate future. On all those facts I am sure the House will agree it is not the narrow consideration of Imperial Preference that we shall be pursuing, but the full programme of Imperial development, because His Majesty's Government believe that in that we hold the key to the future.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 111.

Division No. 65.]

AYES.

[10.0 p.m

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Levy, B. W.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Dumpleton, C. W.

Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

Alpass, J. H.

Dye, S.

Lipson, D. L.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Attewell, H. C.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Longden, F.

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Lyne, A. W.

Austin, H. Lewis

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

McAllister, G.

Ayles, W. H.

Evans, A. (Islington, W.)

McGhee, H. G.

Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

Ewart, R.

McGovern, J.

Bacon, Miss A.

Fairhurst, F.

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

Farthing, W. J.

McKinlay, A. S.

Barstow, P. G.

Fernyhough, E.

McLeavy, F.

Barton, C.

Field, Capt. W. J.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Battley, J. R.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Foot, M. M.

Macphersen, T. (Romford)

Belcher, J. W.

Forman, J. C.

Mathers, Rt Hon. G.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Medland, H. M.

Berry, H.

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon H. T. N.

Mellish, R. J.

Beswick, F.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Messer, F.

Binns, J.

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Bottomley, A. G.

Gibson, C. W.

Mikardo, Ian

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

Gilzean, A.

Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

Mitchison, G. R.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

Monslow, W.

Bramall, E. A.

Grey, C. F.

Moody, A. S.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Grierson, E.

Morley, R.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Brown, George (Belper)

Guy, W. H.

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Hairs, John E. (Wycombe)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Hale, Leslie

Moyle, A.

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G.

Hamilton, Lieut-Col. R.

Murray, J. D.

Burden, T. W.

Hardman, D. R.

Nally, W.

Burke, W. A.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Naylor, T. E.

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Haworth, J.

Neal H. (Claycross)

Byers, Frank

Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Carmichael, James

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Castle, Mrs B. A.

Herbison, Miss M.

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Chamberlain, R. A.

Hobson, C. R.

O'Brien, T.

Champion, A. J.

Holman, P.

Oldfield, W. H.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Oliver, G. H.

Cluse, W. S.

Hoy, J.

Paget, R. T.

Cobb, F. A.

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Collick, P.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Parker, J.

Collindridge, F.

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Parkin, B. T.

Collins, V. J.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Paton, Mrs F. (Rushcliffe)

Colman, Miss G. M.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Comyns, Dr. L.

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Pearson, A.

Cook, T. F.

Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

Perrins, W.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

Popplewell, E.

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Corlett, Dr. J.

Janner, B.

Pritt, D. N.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Jay, D. P. T.

Proctor, W. T.

Daines, P.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Pursey, Cmdr H.

Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Randall, H. E.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Reeves, J.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Keenan, W.

Richards, R.

Deer, G.

Kenyon, C.

Robens, A.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Key, C. W.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Diamond, J.

Kinley, J.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Dobbie, W.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

Rogers, G. H. R.

Dodds, N. N.

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Donovan, T.

Leslie, J. R.

Royle, C.

Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

Wigg, George

Sargood, R.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

Scott-Elliot, W.

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Wilkes, L.

Segal, Dr. S.

Thurtle, Ernest

Wilkins, W. A.

Sharp, Granville

Tiffany, S.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

Titterington, M. F.

Williams, D. J (Neath)

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Tomlinson, Rl. Hon. G.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Turner-Samuels, M.

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Simmons, C. J.

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

Vernon, Maj. W. F.

Willis, E.

Skinnard, F. W.

Viant, S. P.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Wadsworth, G.

Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.

Sorensen, R. W.

Walker, G. H.

Wilson, Rt Hon. J. H.

Soskice, Sir F.

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow. E.)

Wise, Major F. J.

Stamford, W.

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Woods, G. S.

Steele, T.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Wyatt, W.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Yates, V. F.

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

West, D. G.

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Sylvester, G. O.

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Zilliacus, K.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Wheatley, J. T. (Edinburgh, .)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Mr. Snow and

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Mr. George Wallace.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

Headlam, Lieut.-Col Rt. Hon. Sir C.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Raikes, H. V.

Baldwin, A. E.

Hollis, M. C.

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

Reed, Sir. S. (Aylesbury)

Birch, Nigel

Hurd, A.

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

Boothby, R.

Jeffreys, General Sir. G.

Ropner, Col. L.

Bossom, A. C.

Jennings, R.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Bower, N.

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Keeling, E. H.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

Kerr, Sir J. Graham

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

Langford-Holt, J.

Snadden, W. M.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Bullock, Capt. M.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Linstead, H. N.

Studholme, H. G.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. . C.

Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Taylor, Vice-Adm, E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Crowder, Capt. John E.

Low, A. R. W.

Teeling, William

Digby, S. W.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

Donner, P. W.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.

Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.

Drayson, G. B.

Macdonald, Sir P. (I of Wight)

Touche, G. C.

Drewe, C.

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Wakefield, Sir W. W.

Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Walker-Smith, D.

Eccles, D. M.

Marples, A. E.

Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Marsden, Capt. A.

Wheatley, Col. M. J. (Dorset, E.)

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

Molson, A. H. E.

White, J. B. (Canterbury)

Fletcher, W. (Bury)

Moore, Lt.-Col, Sir T.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Neven-Spence, Sir B.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Fox, Sir G.

Nicholson, G.

York, C.

Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

Nield, B. (Chester)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

Noble, Comdr A. H. P.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Galbraith, Cmdr T. D.

Odey, G. W.

Major Conant and

Gammans, L. D.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Brigadier Mackeson

Grimston, R. V.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Harvey, Air-Comdre, A. V.

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved:
"That this House approves the action taken by His Majesty's Government at the Second Session of the Preparatory Committee of the United Nations Conference on Trade and Employment."

IMPORT DUTIES (GENEVA AGREEMENT)
Resolved:
"That the Import Duties (Geneva Agreement) Order, 1947 (S.R. & O., 1947, No. 2711),
1334
dated 19th December, 1947, made by the Treasury under the Import Duties Act, 1932, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th January, be approved.—[Mr. H. Wilson.]

SILK DUTIES
Resolved:
"That the Silk Duties (No. 1) Order, 1947 (S.R. & O., 1947, No. 2713), dated 19th December, 1947, made by the Treasury under the Finance Act, 1933, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th January, be approved." —[Mr. H. Wilson.]

SCHOOL BUILDING PROGRAMME
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn,"—[Mr. Popplewell.]
10.11 p.m.
Mr. Harold Davies: I take this opportunity to raise the issue of school buildings in relation to the country's educational programme, because, at this moment, and at this juncture of the history of our country, I believe that this issue is of paramount importance. Unless this country produces a stream of highly trained and skilled boys and girls, and afterwards, by further education, men and women who are trained in technical and art colleges—and ultimately in the universities—this country will be in danger of losing its place in the social, cultural and economic leadership of the civilised nations. We must have a skilful nation. We must have an educated nation.
Under the new Education Act, which the Ministry of Education and both the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary for Education, working as a team, are doing their best to implement, we are now meeting with great difficulties, because of the White Paper Cmd. 7268 on Capital Investment in 1948. We cannot allow the future of the young children of this country to be shipwrecked once again on the rocks of economic crisis, or fear of war, or whatever it is that is being talked about. We saw the 1918 Education Act destroyed in the inter-war period by apathy and casualness on the part of the Government and people of this country. We can no longer afford to he casual about education in this country. We must jump into the lead in technical and scientific manpower if we wish to maintain our markets, our skill and our international prestige in this international system of trade.
Always after wars there is the battle of the "three Rs" against the "three Ms," against the issue of manpower, materials and money. I wish the Minister to assure me that the Ministry of Education will not give up the struggle against the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or anybody else, for a higher amount than the allocation of 1 per cent. of manpower, materials and buildings which is indicated in the White Paper. We want a far higher percentage than 1 per cent. of manpower and building materials de-
1336
voted entirely to this question of school buildings. The Government have made magnificent efforts to maintain their programme. No doubt I shall be given figures to show that in 1948 there will be a spurt compared with 1947. However, I am not so much concerned with a spurt in one period of 12 months. I want to see a steady stream of school buildings and accommodation of all types being erected now to relieve the burden on the mass of the primary school teachers and others.
They are a class of people often forgotten during the war. Much praise has been showered upon many types of people for their work during the war, but we have forgotten the struggle carried on by these people amid the shortages of the elementary materials of education. With the raising of the school-leaving age and the increase in the birthrate, these problems will become more intense. Sir Frederick Mander, a past President of the National Union of Teachers, once said, when speaking at a conference on school building:
"There is nothing wrong with standardisation. What we need is good standardisation. I fail to see how we can cope with the problem in front of us unless we are prepared for a large measure of standardisation. I, for one, am not prepared to immolate a whole generation of children on the altar of architectural aestheticism."
The point I am trying to make is that if we cannot get perfect buildings from the aesthetic point of view, or from the point of view of space, light and air room and the saving of the energies of the teachers, it is essential that some types of building be allocated for the purpose of implementing the school building programme. Circular 145 of 6th June, 1947, distributed by the Ministry of Education, says:
"The rise in the birthrate will present the education service with problems affecting the supply of teachers, accommodation and furniture. The extent of these problems will vary appreciably from area to area."
Below that statement, we have a chart which shows that there will be an increase in the school population from 4,869,000 in 1946, to 5,732,000 in 1952. In the age group from five to six years, there will be an increase of roughly 21.2 per cent. in the number of children who will he demanding primary education. It is no use having a high-falutin' scheme for magnificent universities and technical colleges, or building up a great scheme of nuclear

1337
physicists, unless we have the base of the pyramid in the primary schools on a firm foundation of great accomplishment in the shape of buildings in which the children can start their work.
On 2nd June, 1947, Circular 1943 on the subject of the educational building programme was issued. This asked local education authorities to review the position. I want the Minister to tell me what exactly is the position at the moment, especially in view of the White Paper, "Capital Investment in 1948." The present Chancellor of the Exchequer told us on 5th December that the estimated expenditure on the educational programme in England and Wales would be £20,250,000, and £32 million in 1948. In Scotland during the same period the figure would jump from £2,600,000 to £4,600,000.
The permanent building programme for 1947–48 is estimated at £50 million. Can anything be done to increase the allocation to the Ministry of Education? Can the Ministry do something about this £50 million that is allocated to permanent buildings, so that we can get up types of buildings speedily to serve the present demand? The White Paper, on page 14, says that the educational programme for 1947–48 has been designed to meet the following requirements: Places needed for raising the school leaving age to 15; schools to meet new housing developments; the maintenance of existing primary and secondary schools; including provision to meet the rising birth rate; school meals; further education; teacher training, and special schools for handicapped children. I would refer to the issue of school meals, which is well down the list. I would like to see school meals higher in the priority list. In March, 1947, the Ministry provided 40 dining huts. At that period, according to an answer given in tins House, they said that they were planning to provide accommodation for 115,000 children. How far have they gone in that direction? Are they going to allow this White Paper to limit that planned point?
There are two other points which I would like to raise. In this White Paper, I am astonished to see that all building of community centres, youth clubs, and adult education centres, is to be postponed, as well as major schemes for nursery schools and school meals. If we are asking at the present time the women
1338
of England to go into industry, then we should on no account prevent the expansion of these nursery schools. In the city of Stoke-on-Trent, we have hundreds of children now waiting to go into nursery classes. Something should be done about that, and the utmost pressure should be brought on the Cabinet to see that this part of the programme is implemented.
There are two local points about which I have written to the Minister. In my own area, we have some Church schools which were in a dilapidated condition, and I must admit that the Ministry and the local education authority in Staffordshire acted immediately and promised to do their best to see that these schools should be ready as soon as possible. I would ask the Minister what the officials of his Ministry are doing in a case like this. A Church school was given permission by the Charity Commissioners to sell their house, which had not been occupied within living memory, and which belonged to the school. The Ministry said that they could only spend the interest on the capital from that house, which must be invested. They want to spend £600 or £700 immediately, because there will be no new school there until 1960. I want the red tape cut at once and that school put into a condition in which the children can be comfortable in winter and have decent sanitary conditions.
I would also like to refer to difficulties in various areas where we have mining subsidence. I hear today that a complete school is to be left and the children moved to another district because of the mining danger of subsidence in a village called Packmoor. The Ministry must act quickly to help our harassed local officials in this matter. If we do not get these buildings, and if we have the 8,000 emergency teachers training in the emergency training colleges in 1948, I ask the Minister are we once again going to have redundancy in the teaching profession, because the buildings are not put there owing to our having sacrificed once again this issue of education on the rocks of a so-called economic crisis?
10.25 p.m.
Mr. Ralph Morley: I wish, very briefly, to add my plea to the one already made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. H. Davies). After the passing of the Education Act, 1944,

1339
we considered that the two great obstacles of putting it into operation would be the shortage of teachers and the shortage of buildings. Owing to the success of the emergency training scheme, a success very largely due to the efforts of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education, the difficulty of the shortage of teachers has been overcome. I believe that, in a few years time, we shall have enough teachers to give effect to the 1944 Act. But the difficulty of building seems to be getting worse as the months pass by.
We have still a very large number of all-standard schools in the rural areas, where children are kept until they reach the age of 15, and we are under an obligation, under the terms of the 1944 Act, to give those children a secondary education after the age of 11. It is impossible to do that in the type of schools that now exist in many thousands in the country areas. It will be necessary, very quickly, to have a number of new buildings in those areas. The problem is also presenting itself in the urban areas because of the increase in the number of infants going to school, owing to the rising birthrate. There is great difficulty in those areas in finding accommodation for the infants, and, in many districts, they are having to have double shifts in the infant schools. We still have very large classes in our schools—40,000 of over 40, and round about 2,000 of over 50. Although we have the teachers, we cannot reduce the classes until we have the classrooms into which to put the children. We must have further accommodation if there is to be any reduction in the size of classes.
I know quite well that the Ministry are doing as much as they possibly can, in view of the cuts in capital expenditure, to erect new permanent buildings. In fact, I think I am right in saying that the amount of permanent building last year and next year will be found to be greater than that which took place in some years before the war. But is it not possible, now that the H.O.R.S.A. scheme is coming to an end, to extend the scheme so as to provide additional classrooms for those under the age of 14. Is it not possible to make experiments in the prefabrication of classrooms, which might be assembled quickly to make new schools? What are the prospects of the aluminium school?
1340
I should like some assurance from the Ministry—and I have no doubt I shall get it—that they are sparing no efforts in the extension of prefabricated huts, and the adoption of new types of schools which, though no less expensive than the old buildings, can be more quickly erected. Unless there is some speeding up of the provision of school buildings, we shall not be able, for years to come, to give effect to the Education Act, 1944.
10.28 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Mr. Hardman): The first question concerns the capital investment programme, and, of course, we have to concern ourselves with the effect of the Government review on this. It is a question which has been raised by my hon. Friend, and I want to go into it in some detail. The White Paper on Capital Investment, 1948, recognises that, in general, the education building programme represents the essential minimum. I think I must make perfectly clear what has been agreed for deferment. Major projects for nursery schools and classes, except where they are needed to assist mothers to enter industry, are deferred. The second deferment is for all major proposals for community centres, adult education centres, and youth clubs. Naturally, my right hon. Friend and I deplore these deferments, but, under present conditions, it seems to us that they are inevitable. Except for school meals, all the remaining classes of projects in the primary and secondary field are allowed in principle to go ahead.
The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) raised the most important question of technical education, and we are glad to say that the Government recognise the pressing need for additional facilities for technical education. If this country is to play its part in the export markets of the future, then technically trained personnel are essential and we recognise the pressing need for this additional accommodation and the programme to cover essential requirements for this purpose up to the end of 1951 is to be fully worked out. I may say that my right hon. Friend and myself have received complete sympathy from other Members of the Government in this respect.
The performance of this programme will have the first claim after the most urgent statutory obligations in the primary and

1341
secondary field on the resources available for additional building. Excluding school meals, the White Paper estimates that the expenditure involved in the programmes for 1947 and 1948 is £17,000,000 and £27,750,000 respectively. The financial deductions which will be made as a result of the deferments required by the White Paper will be negligible. In answer to the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley), I can assure him that we shall spare no efforts in supplying new types of schools, from whatever untraditional materials these schools may be built.
In regard to the question on the school meals service raised by the hon. Member for Leek, I think these statistics should be of interest to the House. Up to the end of 1947, 1,300 projects had been completed by the Minister of Works. That means 500,000 children have school meals accommodation. At the present time 500 further projects are in progress, which means a further 175,000 additional daily mid-day school meals. In addition to that, the local authorities have their own programme which they are doing themselves and this programme will provide an additional 175,000 meals daily.
In terms of canteens for the provision of these meals, up to the end of October, 1947, 20,715 had been supplied to serve 25,187 schools. Between June and October, 1947, the total children taking a mid-day meal had risen from 2,322,000 to 2,536,000—from 48.5 per cent. to 50.8 per cent. The Ministry recognises that the mid-day meal is an essential part of the educational curriculum day by day and we are determined that, when materials are available, the best possible equipment will be there to enable the school meal to be in the maintained school for the general school population of our nation as complete a function in the school day as in the independent school system or in the colleges of the older Universities.
The hon. Member for Leek has raised a local question, of the Longsdon Church of England School, and I should like to say something about that problem. The facts that he has implied do not bear out the allegation that the Ministry are not allowing the trustees to apply the proceeds of the sale of the school house in the manner desired by them. Indeed, the Ministry are quite agreeable to the proposed use of the proceeds, but it is a
1342
question not of what is agreeable but of what is permitted by law, and my right hon. Friend has to stand by the law like anybody else in the Gauntry.
The solicitor's letters have raised technical legal points of considerable difficulty, and the Ministry have endeavoured to assist the trustees in every way possible, and to suggest means by which they can achieve what they desire. A reply will be sent to the letters of the 14th and 15th of January as soon as possible. I hope my hon. Friend will receive this assurance that we shall do our best to settle this constituency case for him.
My hon. Friend raises the question of the cuts in the building programme—which I fear are inevitable—influencing the emergency training scheme for teachers who come from the emergency training colleges. Frankly, we do not expect this difficulty. At any rate, the negligible cuts I have already instanced will not affect those now training in the emergency training colleges.
It may be of interest to the House, in connection with this school building programme, to have some figures of the number of classrooms which the Ministry of Education has been providing. During the past six months, we e provided an average of between 270 and 280 rooms a month. These rooms have been provided under the H.O.R.S.A. scheme. The total rooms completed during the calendar year 1947 is 2,004. We realise at the Ministry that we cannot do all that we would wish to do in the provision of new classrooms and new school buildings.
I feel, and I think my right hon. Friend feels, that in the present emergency the Ministry of Education have not come out of the exigencies of the present time too badly. When we compare the 1920 building programme for schools after the first world war with the position today, I think our figures, though not entirely satisfactory at least give some cause for commendation. If you allow for the differences in the cost, the amount of work approved in 1947 equals approximately that approved by the old Board of Education in the four years after the first world war. The 1947 achievement is, I think, the fastest rate of approval ever achieved in the years between the wars, and when the Minister of Education gives his approval, he does so knowing that the local authority can go ahead because the supply of

1343
material and labour in that administrative area is available. It is not a question of giving approval, and having several months to wait to see whether labour and materials are available. Quite frankly we feel that, considering the difficulties after the second world war the Ministry of
1344
Education have risen valiantly to their task and are doing better in the provision of school buildings and school rooms than was the case after the first world war.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Industries (New Entrants)
  Industries (New Entrants)
  Overseas Gift Clothing (Coupons)
  Overseas Gift Clothing (Coupons)
  Textbooks (Northern Ireland)
  Textbooks (Northern Ireland)
  Domestic Preserving Jars
  Domestic Preserving Jars
  Tractor Tyres
  Tractor Tyres
  Token Imports
  Token Imports
  Artificial Teeth (Re-exports)
  Artificial Teeth (Re-exports)
  Sailcloth, Cornwall
  Sailcloth, Cornwall
  National Salvage Campaign (Posters)
  National Salvage Campaign (Posters)
  Formaldehyde
  Formaldehyde
EMPLOYMENT
  Registration (Bookmakers' Undertakings)
  Registration (Bookmakers' Undertakings)
  Hotel and Catering Workers
  Hotel and Catering Workers
  European Volunteer Workers (Camp, Childs Escall)
  European Volunteer Workers (Camp, Childs Escall)
  Unemployment, North Staffordshire
  Unemployment, North Staffordshire
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Light Hydrocarbon Oils (Duty)
  Light Hydrocarbon Oils (Duty)
  Prunes (Duty)
  Prunes (Duty)
  Tobacco Tokens (Old Age Pensioners)
  Tobacco Tokens (Old Age Pensioners)
  Capital Investment (Factory Building, Wales)
  Capital Investment (Factory Building, Wales)
  PILCHARD HALF-CASKS (HOOP IRON)
  PILCHARD HALF-CASKS (HOOP IRON)
FUEL AND POWER
  Economy Leaflets (Littlewoods Pools)
  Economy Leaflets (Littlewoods Pools)
  Sporting Events (Private Hire Vehicles)
  Sporting Events (Private Hire Vehicles)
  American Oil Purchases (Payment)
  American Oil Purchases (Payment)
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
  Petrol Sales (Foreign Countries)
  Petrol Sales (Foreign Countries)
  Basic Petrol Ration
  Basic Petrol Ration
  Hire Cars and Taxis (Petrol)
  Hire Cars and Taxis (Petrol)
  Motorcars (Calor Gas)
  Motorcars (Calor Gas)
  Chartered Aircraft (Sports Events)
  Chartered Aircraft (Sports Events)
  Coal-Oil Conversion
  Coal-Oil Conversion
  Regional Petroleum Officers
  Regional Petroleum Officers
COAL INDUSTRY
  Domestic Allocation
  Domestic Allocation
  Mining Subsidence (Committee)
  Mining Subsidence (Committee)
  Pit Ponies
  Pit Ponies
  Opencast Coal (Production Cost)
  Opencast Coal (Production Cost)
  Dairy Boiler Fuel, Dumfriesshire
  Dairy Boiler Fuel, Dumfriesshire
  Cushion Coal, Thame
  Cushion Coal, Thame
  Distribution
  Distribution
  Retail Prices
  Retail Prices
  Consignment, Blackburn (Quality)
  Consignment, Blackburn (Quality)
  Grading
  Grading
  ELECTRICITY ECONOMY SCHEME, STRETFORD
  ELECTRICITY ECONOMY SCHEME, STRETFORD
  CHILD CARE
  CHILD CARE
  COUNTY FIRE BRIGADE, OXFORDSHIRE (PROPERTY)
  COUNTY FIRE BRIGADE, OXFORDSHIRE (PROPERTY)
  CHIEF CONSTABLE OF FLINTSHIRE (APPOINTMENT)
  CHIEF CONSTABLE OF FLINTSHIRE (APPOINTMENT)
  CINEMAS (ADMISSION OF CHILDREN)
  CINEMAS (ADMISSION OF CHILDREN)
  PRISON SENTENCE (CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR)
  PRISON SENTENCE (CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR)
  SUMMER TIME
  SUMMER TIME
  TAXICAB FARES
  TAXICAB FARES
  CHISLEHURST CAVES (USE)
  CHISLEHURST CAVES (USE)
  BRITISH CHILDREN (ADOPTION, U.S.A.)
  BRITISH CHILDREN (ADOPTION, U.S.A.)
HOUSING
  Requisitioning
  Requisitioning
  Council Houses (Tenants' Protection)
  Council Houses (Tenants' Protection)
  Municipal Estates, Wolverhampton (Shops)
  Municipal Estates, Wolverhampton (Shops)
  Slum Clearance (Subsidies)
  Slum Clearance (Subsidies)
  Private Construction (Licences)
  Private Construction (Licences)
  Subsidies (Forest Workers)
  Subsidies (Forest Workers)
  Peplow Air Station, Shropshire.
  Peplow Air Station, Shropshire.
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Factory Nurseries
  Factory Nurseries
  Medical Practitioners and Pharmacists (Registration)
  Medical Practitioners and Pharmacists (Registration)
  New Birth Certificate
  New Birth Certificate
  Village Water Supplies Dorset
  Village Water Supplies Dorset
  Infantile Paralysis Patients, Newmarket
  Infantile Paralysis Patients, Newmarket
  Sewerage, Bickleigh
  Sewerage, Bickleigh
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (EXCHEQUER GRANTS)
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (EXCHEQUER GRANTS)
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Pensions
  Pensions
  Trade Union Membership
  Trade Union Membership
  Published Works
  Published Works
EDUCATION
  Sports Equipment
  Sports Equipment
  School Milk
  School Milk
  Nurseries (Registration and Inspection)
  Nurseries (Registration and Inspection)
  Uncertificated Teachers
  Uncertificated Teachers
INDIA AND PAKISTAN
  Kashmir (Situation)
  Kashmir (Situation)
  High Commissioner, Delhi (Residence)
  High Commissioner, Delhi (Residence)
AGRICULTURE
  Lucerne Seed (Import)
  Lucerne Seed (Import)
  Tractors (Hydraulic Lifts)
  Tractors (Hydraulic Lifts)
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (UNDERGROUND CABLES)
  TELEPHONE SERVICE (UNDERGROUND CABLES)
  SPORTS EVENTS (MOTOR COACHES)
  SPORTS EVENTS (MOTOR COACHES)
COLONIAL EMPIRE
  Co-operative Departments
  Co-operative Departments
  History and Development (Reports)
  History and Development (Reports)
  WEST AFRICA (COCOA PLANTATIONS)
  WEST AFRICA (COCOA PLANTATIONS)
  KENYA (AFRICAN LAND SETTLEMENT)
  KENYA (AFRICAN LAND SETTLEMENT)
  LAID UP TANKERS, FALMOUTH
  LAID UP TANKERS, FALMOUTH
  LOCOMOTIVE EXPORTS (RUSSIA)
  LOCOMOTIVE EXPORTS (RUSSIA)
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  SCOTTISH AFFAIRS.
  4.5 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government the question of which I have given private Notice—namely, whether His Majesty's Government have any statement to make about Scottish affairs.
  LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl for giving me this opportunity of repeating a statement which has just been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. I think I had better use his own words:
  "I can now report to the House the conclusions of the Government resulting from their consideration of the way in which Scottish Members may have more time for the discussion of Scottish business in the House, and by which greater opportunities can be given for the consideration of domestic affairs in Scotland. These conclusions are embodied in a White Paper which is now available."

  PRINCESS ELIZABETH'S AND DUKE OF EDINBURGH'S ANNUITIES BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a; and to be printed.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (IMPROVEMENTS) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
  4.7 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:
  Amendment of S. 68 (3) of 15 & 16 Geo. 5. c. 49.
  1. In subsection (3) of Section sixty-eight of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925 (which enacts that the Court of Appeal may sit in three divisions at the same time), for the word "three" there shall be substituted the words "two or more."
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT)THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT) moved to leave out "two or more" and to insert "four." The noble and learned Viscount said: I need not trouble your Lordships at any length in regard to this Amendment. which carries out an undertaking I gave on the Second Reading. Suggestions came to me from various quarters, and I think this proposal commended itself pretty widely to all sections of the House It is a fact that unfortunately the Court of Appeal are working under an intolerable strain, and the object of this Bill is to enable me to do what I can to remove to some small extent that strain. It may be possible to find occasions when we can constitute an appropriate fourth Court. At the present time, under Statute, the Court of Appeal are not allowed to sit in more than three Divisions. I never contemplated more than four Divisions under this Bill, and, that being so, it is just as well to say so. It might have been thought that I proposed a vast number of Divisions, but that was never my intention. The Amendment makes it plain that the number is four, and I think all misapprehension which might otherwise have arisen will be avoided. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 8, leave out ("two or more") and insert ("four").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD DU PARCQ: Perhaps I may, in one word, thank the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, for so readily accepting the suggestions which were made by some of my noble and learned friends and myself. I hope that all your Lordships will support this

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  Amendment which, I am sure, if I may say so, makes clear the purposes of the Bill.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clause agreed to.
  House resumed.

  OVERSEAS RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BILL.
  4.10 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  The MINISTER OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, in commending this measure to your Lordships, I know I shall be pushing at an open door. We are indeed of one mind about the urgency of increasing the output from overseas of those essential foodstuffs which enrich the primary producer and at the same time help to alleviate the present world food shortage. Your Lordships will remember the speeches made from all quarters of this House during the debate which took place on this subject last November, which was initiated in the powerful and impressive speech of my noble friend Lord Dukeston, when a general desire was shown that the Government should proceed without delay to carry out the policy of overseas development foreshadowed at the opening of this Session of Parliament. It is this policy of extending and speeding up economic development overseas that is being put into practice by the present Bill. I should like to emphasize as strongly as I can, because I think our aims have sometimes been misunderstood, the firm conviction of the Government that the speedier and more widespread development of our territories overseas will benefit both the Colonial peoples, whose low standard of living can be permanently raised only by greater use of their natural resources, and the inhabitants of this country and other countries which are still suffering from the acute shortage of agricultural produce brought about by the ravages and dislocation of the war.
  Viewed from the standpoint of the local inhabitants, this Bill is our most important advance along a road that has been travelled ever since the Metropolitan Government began to finance the develop-
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  ment of the Colonies. The substantial sum of £120,000,000 provided for this purpose by the Colonial Development and Welfare Act of 1945 will do no more than go a certain distance towards providing those basic economic and social services without which commercial enterprise and better conditions of life for the inhabitants would both be impracticable. Colonial Governments will spend this money on such things as road and rail communications, on medical, educational and other social services, on public utility services such as drainage, water supply and electricity, and on the staff required for all these different activities. But there will clearly be little money left over after this for those new or improved methods of production which involve some of the risks of ordinary business enterprise. Capital for these projects will be provided certainly in part by private enterprise. The entrepreneur from this country or elsewhere who invests his money in the Colonies can make a real contribution to their progress, provided those safeguards required for the welfare of the local population are strictly adhered to.
  But economic conditions in this country have changed profoundly since the nineteenth century, when the main economic development of the Colonial territories took place. The capital resources of private individuals or firms at this time are no longer sufficient for the large-scale expansion of primary production overseas we now envisage. We cannot, therefore, rely any longer for this purpose on private capital from outside the Colonies, and as yet its place cannot wholly be taken by capital raised within the Colonies themselves. The time has therefore come for the Home Government itself to put up the capital required, and to appoint its own agencies to undertake what will surely be one of the largest and most imaginative commercial and welfare ventures in modern times.
  We are proposing in Clauses 1 and 2 of this Bill to establish a Colonial Development Corporation with a capital of up to £100,000,000. It will be the duty of this Corporation to act on commercial principles. Noble Lords will see in Clause 15 that the Corporation have been instructed to "break even." This means that they will, to the best of their ability, have to secure that this revenue, taking the lean years and the prosperous years

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  together, is sufficient to cover their current expenditure. In the early years we must, of course, expect the Corporation to work at a loss. They will have to sink a great deal of money in projects which cannot be expected to yield a return for a considerable time. For instance, I believe a large proportion of Colonial crops take five or even seven years to come into bearing, because they are tree crops. Once this initial preparatory period is over, it will be expected that the Corporation will do their utmost to pay their way in exactly the same manner as any other commercial concern. As your Lordships will observe from the terms of the Bill, there is plenty of flexibility about the way in which the Colonial Development Corporation are to be allowed to operate. If your Lordships look at Clause 1 (2) (b), you will see that they will be free to operate in a number of different ways in association with other concerns—for instance, by taking shares in them, or, if it should be convenient so to do, by establishing subsidiary or associated bodies. The Government hope that the Corporation will often act through subsidiaries formed in the Colonies. We believe that in these subsidiary companies there will be opportunities for local investment and for the representation of local interests.
  This brings me to a point on which I would like to lay very special emphasis. It is the intention of the Government that the Colonial Development Corporation shall always work, wherever it may be, with the closest possible regard for the welfare of Colonial peoples. What I have just said applies, of course, equally to the activities of the Overseas Food Corporation. We have, therefore, been most careful to provide, as we have done in Clause 7 of the Bill, that these Corporations will be under an obligation to have "particular regard to the interests of the inhabitants of the territories" in which they work. They cannot establish any new undertaking in any territory until there has been full consultation with the Government on the spot. They will also be required to observe the usual practices in relation to the welfare of their employees, and to consult about conditions of employment with the representatives of those they employ. I should like to repeat, because I think it is a matter of the utmost importance about which
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  there should be no misunderstanding, that we are setting up these Corporations in the belief that they will benefit both producers and consumers alike, the Colonial peoples as well as the people of this country and of the rest of the world. The United Kingdom and the Colonies both need more goods of the kind these Colonies can provide. The Colonies cannot produce these goods without much more capital, and the United Kingdom is in the favourable position of being able to provide that extra capital. We therefore have here an example of mutual economic advantage, which surely can do nothing but good to the long-term relationship between primary producing and industrial countries all over the world.
  But it would be a mistake to expect too much from this development scheme too soon. We shall be disappointed—disappointment will be inevitable—if we build our hopes on large and immediate returns. The Colonies certainly have great natural resources which have never been systematically tapped, but their development requires a combination of favourable factors which cannot be achieved without sustained effort over a fairly long period of time. It will not be an easy matter to procure, for example, a vast amount of capital equipment, such as bulldozers, tractors, rolling stock, and so on, which will inevitably have to include many types of implement which we need for use on our farms at home, and which might also easily run us into a heavy dollar expenditure.
  Here is a shortage which is all the more difficult and troublesome, because in the matter of the development of these relatively undeveloped territories overseas so much depends on overcoming this shortage of capital equipment. We must be prepared ourselves to set aside some of our own limited supplies of capital equipment for the Colonies. That, I fear, is inevitable. Then there are the local factors which are another source of potential difficulty, such as labour supplies, transport and port facilities, or even pests that attack the growing plants. Any of these factors may go wrong at any time and delay the harvesting or processing of some valuable crop. The main results of this overseas production drive will, therefore, not be evident this year, or even next year. They will begin to come in some two or three years hence. But it will take longer than that before

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  we or the Colonies benefit from the full flow of cash and consumers' returns from this large overseas investment.
  I now turn to the second Corporation which this Bill proposes to set up. The Overseas Food Corporation, for which Clauses 3 and 4 provide, will have a capital of up to £50,000,000 and will be responsible to the Ministry of Food. Its functions are confined to the production of, and assistance in the production of, food supplies and other agricultural products. Under Clause 3 (b) the Corporation will be charged with the first duty of promoting the production of groundnuts in East and Central Africa. But, unlike the Colonial Development Corporation, its activities will not be confined to British Colonial territories. This is the main reason why it is essential to have a second Corporation, and why the whole development plan cannot possibly be carried out by a single body. There are, of course, many territories outside the Colonial Empire in which capital investments could produce large quantities of those food supplies of which the world stands in such urgent need. Many of the openings which lie before the Overseas Food Corporation are outside Colonial territories. For instance, Mr. Plumer, the prospective Chairman of the Corporation, accompanied by a Mission from the Ministry of Food, is now discussing with the Australian Government the possibility of developing food supplies in Australia. This possibility is not limited by any means to Australia itself, but extends to the Australian trusteeship territory of New Guinea.
  I am sure your Lordships would expect me to say something about the relationship between the two Corporations, because this has been a matter of some difficulty and has caused a certain amount of controversy. Both Corporations will have similar powers, but their spheres of activity—as I have already explained—and the duties assigned to them, will be different. The Development Corporation will operate only in the Colonies. If I may repeat quite briefly what I have already said, because of its importance, I would remind you that the Food Corporation will operate anywhere outside the United Kingdom. The Development Corporation will be able to undertake any project to develop natural resources and trade, or expand production in the
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  Colonies, which covers quite a large range of economic activities. The Overseas Food Corporation, on the other hand, will concentrate on the production of foodstuffs and ancillary agricultural products wherever United Kingdom consumers will benefit directly or indirectly from the addition to the world food supply. Its sphere of activity is therefore, much more limited in extent.
  As your Lordships will have observed, there will be this amount of overlap between the two Corporations—namely, that both will be entitled to take on the production of foodstuffs and other agricultural products within the Colonial Empire. We are quite convinced, after examining this problem very closely indeed, that there is positive advantage in having the choice of two agencies to undertake agricultural development in the Colonies. It may well be that the nature of some project in one of the Colonies will make the experience earned by the Food Corporation in the East African groundnut scheme, or in any subsequent scheme it may undertake, invaluable in carrying it out in an efficient and business-like way. The Food Corporation will, for example, be a highly efficient organization, both in staff and equipment, to promote now schemes for the cultivation of groundnuts. In cases where it would be the most suitable agency there would clearly be considerable economic loss if it were debarred by Statute from operating in the Colonial territory.
  I have heard it suggested that, because it must be the duty of the Minister of Food to obtain food for this country as cheaply as he can, the Food Corporation might become an instrument of exploitation. I want to say most emphatically that I do not believe there is any ground whatever for that suggestion. Ample safeguards are provided in the Bill to prevent anything of the kind from happening. The Food Corporation will be bound in exactly the same way as the Development Corporation by all the safeguards for local interests in Clauses 7 and 8 of the Bill. It must always function with the closest possible regard to the welfare of the people in the area or areas where it will be working. It cannot establish any undertaking without full consultation with the Government of the territory, and it must do whatever may be required to secure the safety, health and welfare of those in its employ-

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  ment. In addition to those safeguards, there is an important proviso to Clause 3 (1) whereby the Corporation cannot undertake any project in the Colonial Empire other than the East African groundnut scheme except at the express invitation of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. The Secretary of State would naturally consult the Government of any Colony concerned before issuing an invitation. I cannot imagine that a Colonial Government would advise him to admit the Corporation if, in their judgment, the operation of this body would be contrary to the interests of the local population.
  I should like to say something quite briefly about the relationship of this Corporation towards other private or public concerns. Indeed, what I say now applies equally to either Corporation. It is not the intention of the Government that the Corporations should have a monopoly in the field of overseas investment, or that they should enjoy any such priority above that given to their competitors in the same spheres of activity. There is, to-day as I am sure your Lordships will agree, ample scope in the Colonies for all the private and public capital that is likely to be forthcoming now or in the course of the next generation, and it is not our policy to discourage the investment of private capital so long as its aims agree with the plans of the Colonial Governments for the development of their facilities. It has been suggested in some quarters that if the Government had paid more attention to sustaining existing enterprises, rather than embarking upon those new schemes, quicker results might have been obtained. For instance, it was feared that the groundnuts scheme would have an adverse effect on the supply of labour to the important Tanganyika sisal industry. I was glad to see in yesterday's Press a statement by the Sisal Growers' Association that such fears have not been realized.
  I think this is one of the Bills that really need no one to commend them, for they speak for themselves. I believe that this measure will be remembered in time to come as a new and important landmark in the history of Colonial development, and that the benefits which will flow from it will be felt not only in the Colonies themselves but in this country and, indirectly, all over the world. It is an earnest of our
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  intention to play our part in increasing the world's foodstuffs and primary products and in promoting world recovery from the effects of the war. Our sincerity will be attested by the fact that we shall use a part of our limited resources of capital equipment and trained man-power for this purpose. And in making good the arrears of economic development in our Colonial territory, we shall also be assisting the Colonial peoples themselves to achieve that higher standard of living on which their welfare and the pace of their advance towards self-government both depend. I beg to move.
  Moved, That this Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
  4.29 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, the whole House will be grateful to the Minister for the very clear exposition which he has given of this Bill, and I think that in all quarters of the House—or certainly in almost all quarters—it will be agreed that it is a Bill to which we can give our general and broad support. I should like at the outset to congratulate the Government on not having laid down any sealed pattern. I have had to criticize them before now for putting too many sealed patterns into their Bills. Here, wisely, they have left the method of operation very much at large. I am sure that is right, because the activities and the conditions will vary very greatly. If I may draw upon my experience, both as Minister in West Africa and as Chairman of the United Kingdom Commercial Corporation—which was not unlike one of these Corporations; its activities were even wider and its turnover even larger—I would say that the Government would be very wise—as indeed they have already started to be—to use wherever they can the most efficient trade channels for their operations. At times they may have to create something new, but a wealth of experience exists, and I shall not be accused of any intention to cross the floor of the House—until circumstances change—if I say that I consider that in a working partnership in these matters between the State and private enterprise, whether it be here or in the Colonies themselves, there is nothing which need infringe on our political principles.
  I would add this. In choosing your instruments and your agencies, do not hesitate to discriminate and choose the

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  best. That is always rather a difficulty for a Government. So many people feel that they ought to have an equal chance, that it is "Buggins's turn." It is never Buggins's turn unless Buggins is the best man for the job. I sincerely hope that they will use the trade channels, but that they will discriminate and use the best. Indeed, that is their duty as trustees for the taxpayer. They are responsible for doing that just as much as is any board of directors in a great undertaking.
  The frame of the Act, the first great scheme launched—this groundnuts scheme, to which I wish all success—and a great many of the speeches which have been delivered (though not the speech of the Minister introducing the Bill) have tended to convey the impression that development in the Colonial Empire will all be large-scale development. Nothing could be further from the truth. Development cannot all be large-scale; indeed the greater part of production in the Colonial Empire will continue in the future, as it has been in the past, to be the work of millions of small producers. It was their production of groundnuts, palm oil and palm kernels that kept up our fat ration in the war. 300,000 tons of groundnuts were produced; and they worked up to a remarkable production of palm oil; and, most remarkable of all, to 400,000 tons of palm kernels, nearly every one of them hand cracked. These funny little things which weigh something like 1,000,000 to the ton, were the work of literally millions of small people in bush and forest. In the British Empire, cocoa, again, will always be the product of thousands of small farmers.
  Of course it is true that the large estate, with the big factory and processing plant attached to it, is the most efficient producer, both for production in quantity and for quality. That is perfectly true of a commodity like palm oil. In these great well-planned plantations the fruit can be cut at exactly the right time; it can be processed on the spot in satisfactory expressing plants, giving much better results both in quantity and in quality. That undoubtedly, I think, is right where there is a sparse population. But we have to remember that in a very large part of the British Colonial Empire the population is not sparse; it is extremely dense. And with the improvement of health and other conditions it is growing.
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  There is a marked difference, for instance, between Nigeria and the Congo. The Congo, I suppose, is more than twice the size of Nigeria but has barely half its population. In West Africa, part of East Africa, Kenya and the West Indies, the population is dense, and therefore it is important there to improve native production. It is in the improvement of native production and grading and marketing that we shall find the largest field and, I believe, if we are bold, the highest reward.
  This improvement of native production—and I am very glad that the Minister indicated this—both in quantity and in quality is the key to health and social advance. To-day, of course, the world will buy at high prices everything that can be produced in the way of foodstuffs or the raw materials of foodstuffs. Although the seller's market for fats and foodstuffs will continue far longer than the industrial seller's market, in the long run an equilibrium will come. The great production in the Dutch East Indies, when they get back to production, and elsewhere great plans come into operation, will make us competitors again. I hope, therefore, that those who come after us and will continue to be responsible for Colonial development will not hesitate to be imaginative, and if need be drastic, in their plans for native production.
  I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, is to make his maiden speech this afternoon. He and I often considered together the extremely difficult problem of improving the palm oil industry in the densely populated but intensely individualistic villages and tracts of his Eastern territories. We certainly cannot establish a great private or public corporation there. I believe that it would be possible, however—and I hope I am not digressing too much if I say this—to establish a great co-operative combination of that native production, both the sporadic production of the forest and that of new plantations co-operatively owned by these village communities, with an up-to-date expressing plant. I mention those considerations because they are so important. The schemes outlined in the Bill—indeed, this applies to the groundnuts scheme itself, and I was glad that the Minister said "do not look for too quick returns"—must be largely long-range schemes. I should just like

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  to add one thing. I am very glad that Sir Frank Stockdale is to be closely associated with both these Corporations. He knows nearly all that there is to be known about tropical agriculture and he is always ready to learn. He was my mentor and partner in many schemes which we sent on foot when I was Secretary of State.
  I want now to turn to one point under the Bill which was opened up by the Minister. The Bill does raise the very difficult question of which Department should be responsible in the Colonies. Quite frankly, I am not happy about the diarchy, the divided responsibility, which this Bill creates. If an operation in Colonial territory is in the future to be undertaken only by what I may comprehensively call the Food Corporation, at the request of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, it seems to me odd that the groundnuts scheme should have been started under the Ministry of Food and that the Bill should preclude its transfer to the Colonial Office. I do not want to be unduly dogmatic about this, but it would be wrong for your Lordships' House not to face up to the real difficulties that are involved. The Colonial Minister must be responsible for the Colonies. In the war it was quite right to have a Resident Minister, because many Departments, Service and Civil, were involved, and the Minister was a projection of each and all of his colleagues. In effect, he held a power of attorney from them all to take decisions on the spot. However (and I left this view on record) I always felt that when normal times, or perhaps I should rather say so-called peace times, returned, the responsibility should be on the Secretary of State for the Colonies. That is right in principle, and convenient in practice.
  If there is a Corporation operating a great project in a Colony, they will be faced week by week with a mass of local problems. They will constantly and continually need the help of the local administrators and of the Colonial Government. Indeed, there must be a real working partnership between the Corporation and the Colonial Government. The Governor obviously is responsible to the Colonial Office, but the Corporation will be responsible to another Minister. I do not want to press this point
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  too strongly. I am sure it would be the desire of a Minister of Food to look after the Colonial interests, but, after all, the first duty of a Minister of Food is to the food consumers in this country. If he is a business-like Minister, his duty is to buy as cheaply as he can—at any rate to drive a good business bargain. I am not saying that the right business bargain is not the bargain out of which both sides make something, for I know that no good business is ever done, and certainly no further business is bred, unless both sides benefit by it. There is, however, a certain conflict of interests in the Food Minister's functions in this respect; I put it no higher than that.
  Therefore, while I hope that we shall avoid friction, I think that by this diarchy we may fail to achieve that smooth working and quick local action and decision which are so important. I would have thought that unity of interest and responsibility would be in the interest alike of the Colony and of the Corporation itself. Buying is the function of the Ministry of Food using, I hope, businesslike channels through which to do it. I am not now entering upon a plea for permanent bulk buying by Ministers; not at all. I regard production, however, as something quite different. I hope that the Government will think again upon this matter or, at any rate, that they will treat this diarchy as experimental and watch it closely.
  I wish to raise another point about which I have given the Minister notice. I have spoken of native production as being the immediate source of supplies. I believe it is, indeed, the greatest potential source in the future. We stimulated this production greatly in West Africa in the latter part of the war. The noble Lord, Lord Milverton, played a very great part in that. Native administrations and small farmers were mobilized and they all played their part. Frankly, I am greatly disturbed and alarmed to hear reports that a large part of the 1946 groundnut crop has not yet been shifted from Nigeria. I have heard the figure of carry-over put as high as 100,000 tons, out of a crop of, I suppose, something like 300,000 tons, if it was a good year. I should explain to your Lordships that the groundnut is planted in May or June, it comes to maturity in the late autumn, and is harvested by the small farmer in

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  October, November, or perhaps even December.
  What are the facts about this carryover? As I have said, I wish all success to the Tanganyika Groundnut Scheme, but it will not produce many groundnuts for a long time. I cannot refrain from the observation that a groundnut in the factory is worth two in the bush. However, if there is still some part of the 1946 crop to be shifted, the 1947 crop must now be accumulating on top of it. I hope I am wrong or that the reports have been exaggerated. I am very much disturbed if, in fact, we have not been able to shift the whole of this crop. Certainly, the Government have had the fullest information as to the transport needs of Nigeria. We pushed up production there greatly in the war. As Minister, I was myself the most importunate mendicant for engines and rolling stock for Nigeria. It was not easy to plead one's case because everybody wanted rolling stock at the same time—not only every country that was producing, but every Army in every quarter of the world, and the demands grew greater as bombs destroyed rolling stock and as the lines of communication lengthened. However, we were persistent and we got just enough to see us through. Actually, I think, in a year or eighteen months we increased the tonnage that railway carried by something like 400,000 tons.
  I know, too, that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton (Sir Arthur Richards, as he then was) and his extremely efficient railway organization—for the Nigerian Railway is a, very efficient organization indeed—has prepared the most detailed plans of what that railway would need in the future. The Government have told us in one of their White Papers that in planning the most essential thing to do is to put first things first. The first thing in the matter of supplies is to get hold of those supplies which are, in fact, available. If the Government have failed to provide the rolling stock to lift this crop, I must say that they have committed a double mischief. We are losing available supplies which we need urgently.
  But it does not stop there. If the Government have failed in this way, just imagine what must be the effect upon the hundreds of thousands of small farmers whom we urged in the war to in-
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  crease their areas of cultivation and whom we have since assured that the need to maintain and, if possible, even expand that great war effort is still as great as ever. What is going to be the effect upon those people if they see the thousands or tens of thousands of tons of their produce lying month by month, apparently unwanted and possibly deteriorating—because these things do not last for ever. I thought it only right to raise that issue. I trust that the reports are exaggerated. I am sure the Minister will give us the full facts. But if what I have said is in near relation to the truth, then I most sincerely trust that every effort will be made to remedy so unfortunate a position.
  4.50 p.m.
  LORD RENNELL: My Lords, may 1 join with the noble Viscount who has just sat down in commending as in every way desirable the two Corporations and the scheme evolved by their birth out of this Bill? If the few points that I have to make follow, to some extent, those made by the noble Viscount who has just sat down, and if I deal with one or two others, I do so in the hope that my remarks may be helpful. They are in no way intended as criticisms of the scheme. There is one particular point which I think needs emphasizing time and time again, because it is confusing to those who have not closely followed this Bill and this scheme. It is important to realize, as the Minister who introduced the Bill has said, that there are two Corporations involved. It is perhaps an unfortunate fact that both are dealt with in one Bill, and the duality and different purposes of the two schemes are thereby apt to be confused.
  I want to try to keep my remarks in regard to the two separate Corporations as distinct as possible. To take first the Colonial Development Corporation, there is one point which I think needs to be dealt with, because I have seen no reference to it, either in the Press or in speeches made. It is perhaps one of the most important aspects of this Corporation. Under the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts, provision has been made on a generous scale for certain types of development and for a great deal of research. It was not the purpose of those Acts to undertake production in Colonial territories; it was to develop the Colonies in such a way that production might follow. That is to say, the principal pur-

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  pose of those Acts, as I understand them, has been to provide railways, roads, communications, health services, and so on, rather than to go into commercial production by producing timber, foodstuffs or minerals.
  In addition to that, those Acts have provided on a very generous scale for research. It is common knowledge to your Lordships and to all those who have followed these matters, that for many years past a vast amount of research has been done. One of our greatest difficulties has always been how to apply that research in practice. In the past there has always seemed to me to be a gap between the discovery of an important seed, or plant variety, or the improved application of a certain product to commercial or industrial purposes, and the actual practical application of that research. A great many of those discoveries are not in the early stages fit or available for commercial production, and I understand that it is one of the principal purposes of the Development Corporation to use information and material of that sort to translate what the scientist has found into practical experience in commercial and industrial production. Inasmuch as the Corporation fulfil this need, they seem to me to fulfil an even greater need than any of those that have been referred to by many speakers on this subject in another place or in correspondence with the Press.
  I believe that the Development Corporation can save years of experimental applied science, which the private and commercial concern, especially the small man, cannot afford, but which the Corporation ought to be able to afford. On that Corporation I have no other comment to make, apart from one which is equally applicable to both Corporations. I entirely agree with the noble Viscount who has just sat down that there is a great danger of conflict in the subordination of one Corporation to one Minister and the other Corporation to another. In quite recent times we have seen the appalling results of diarchy or triarchy in the world of civil aviation. We have seen the result of two Ministries, not always apparently on very good terms with each other, and a Corporation from time to time apparently on extremely bad terms with both.
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  Here we have the germ of a precisely similar set-up. We have two Ministries and one Corporation involved in each case. I wonder whether His Majesty's Government would not consider that the warning of what has happened in the world of civil aviation is too serious for them to embark on an experiment which has such a profound similarity with the civil aviation set-up. But that is not the end of the difficulty, as I see it. We have the Colonial Development Corporation under or responsible to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Overseas Food Corporation responsible to the Minister of Food. In my view it is perfectly right to have two Corporations. It is perfectly right to have a Corporation which can undertake food production in countries other than Colonial territories, and therefore it would be entirely inappropriate to use the Colonial Development Corporation for that. For that reason, I do not differ in any way with the set-up of two separate Corporations.
  Apart from the difficulties to which I have already referred, I wonder precisely where that is going to lead us. It is within my knowledge that in certain foreign countries where a Ministry, other than the Colonial Ministry has intervened in Colonial territories, there have arisen precisely such differences of opinion between the responsible Ministry and the Ministry of Colonies. I do not wish to refer by name to the territories in question, because what I say may seem in the nature of a criticism of foreign countries, which would be inappropriate in your Lordships' House. But in two territories producing raw materials and foodstuffs I am aware of acute conflicts that have arisen between the different metropolitan Ministries about the policy to be followed. The solution in one case, after trial and error in regard to the experience of those difficulties, has been the subordination of food production to the local Government and its removal from the other metropolitan organization involved—equivalent in our case to taking away from the Ministry of Food and subordinating to the Colonial Office the Overseas Food Corporation.
  I do not say that that is necessarily the right solution nor one which we should follow here—and for the following reason. If the first and essential function

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  of the Colonial Office is to supervise the administration and lay down the policy of Colonial territories, they must have, in the Colonial Office, as an essential guiding policy, the safeguarding of the interests of the inhabitants of those territories. As the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has pointed out, the interest of the Minister of Food in producing groundnuts, say in Tanganyika, may not be precisely the same as the interest which is in the Colonial Office; and if the Colonial Office has to take a paternal interest in Tanganyika, it may not itself be necessarily the right body to produce groundnuts.
  I, therefore, find it difficult to know what the precise answer is, unless it be something on the following lines. The two Corporations are independent bodies corporate, analogous to companies and responsible to the Government only in their general direction, not in their day-to-day management or administration. They are corporate bodies, legal entities which can sue and which may be sued, and they have their financial set-up outlined in the Bill which is now before your Lordships' House. I wonder whether those two Corporations should be responsible or subordinate neither to the Secretary of State for the Colonies nor to the Minister of Food, but to a non-departmental Minister rather than to a Department. I think the noble Earl who introduced this Bill would agree that the type of supervision of the two Corporations by whatever Ministry is now proposed should be very general and should not be particular.
  If, for instance, the Colonial Development Corporation proposes the development of a certain type of tree or wood in a territory and seeks the Minister's general approval, within the limits of this Bill and their powers, I take it that the Minister would not want his Department to go into the merits or demerits of a scheme for which the Corporation is itself responsible and for operating which its officers are paid. In other words, you would not want the economic section or the West African section of the Colonial Office to follow the procedure which it would follow in an administrative matter in considering all the details of any proposal before the Minister makes up his mind. The Minister's responsibility over the activities of the Corporation must be rather tenuous on the highest possible non-departmental level. If that be so, then I submit that
  706
  a Minister without a Department could exercise that supervision as well as, and perhaps from a less partisan point of view better than the Colonial Office, the Ministry of Food, or any other departmental Ministry—such as the Ministry of Agriculture—which might be suggested. I venture to suggest that it is rather that sort of supervision which is in mind and which might be the alternative to the two proposals made in the Bill
  There is only one other point that I should like to make before I sit down. I am still speaking of the Overseas Food Corporation, and I wish to say this in fairness to those who were responsible for initiating the scheme. I am aware that the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, is going to take part in this debate, but it may perhaps be easier for another to emphasize, for what it is worth, how much we owe to the initiative, not of the Colonial Office or of any Government Department, but to a private company, for proposing, working out and starting a scheme which has everybody's praise for its imagination and scope. It would not be fair—nor, I am sure, would any member-of His Majesty's Government wish to do it—to take credit for something which belongs elsewhere. If the scheme is successful we shall owe much to the officers and direction of the United Africa. Company. The work already done only shows that, even when Government-sponsored schemes are brought into being, development is not necessarily either so smooth or so rapid as is sometimes anticipated. Because a scheme is Government sponsored, financed and organized, it does not necessarily follow that it is not going to be affected by teething troubles such as are encountered by ordinary commercial firms. We must not be disappointed at the lack of progress, for we should recognize that those responsible for this undertaking are bound to encounter some difficulties. But, with the personnel they have, they will achieve, I am sure, the results which we all hope for, and we must remain grateful to the United Africa Company for what they have done.
  5.8 p.m.
  LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, I rise to support the Second Reading of this Bill, and I hope that in doing so I may have, in full measure, that indulgence which your Lordships' House is accustomed to

  707
  give to a maiden speech. I count myself fortunate in being able to speak on a Motion which contains No Ingredient of Party spirit. After all, patriotism and belief in the ideals of our race is not the monopoly of any Party, and I am the happier, on an occasion like this, to be able to stand for ideas and ideals which meet with an equal amount of support on both sides of this House. I sit on this side of the House for reasons which have no relevance to this debate. Therefore I am able to speak this afternoon as a representative of the Colonial Civil Service, a Service which knows no Party, only the British Government and the policy which inspires its mission in the Colonial Empire. My memories range over thirty-nine years of service in most parts of that Empire, and during that time I have had the privilege of serving under twenty Secretaries of State, four of whom are members of your Lordships' House to-day.
  To such an observer the increasing purpose which runs through our Colonial record is clear enough. The basic policy has sometimes been obscured, and sometimes its exponents have seemed to falter. The public interest and the public conscience have also shown a vacillating vitality, but always over a period of years the movement has been forward. In that sense, whatever may be said in some parts of Westminster or Whitehall, there is nothing novel or new in the conception of this Bill. It is the lineal descendant of the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts of 1940 and 1945, which, in turn, were the legitimate children of a policy long struggling for expression. Truly the Bill to-day has found a favourable atmosphere in the twin circumstances of the constructive idealism of the present Government and the insistent needs of a shattered world striving to reconstruct its life.
  I hope that it will not sound arrogant if I say that the Colonial Service has long since had its dreams of action such as this, and has prayed for the enlightenment of its masters—of whatever Party. We have realized that something more than the anæmic logic of the economist and the unexpurgated occasional idealism of the extempore political administrator was our crying need. We wanted action inspired by dynamic faith—faith wholly
  708
  held, not half held or apologetically held. We wanted effective belief and a recognition of how much work and study and thought it takes to believe in anything effectively. Our hopes are now high that we shall attain that condition. Perhaps a little later I may be allowed to say a final word about that aspect before I sit down.
  To turn now to the Bill itself. The universal welcome which has greeted its general proposals has been tempered by certain criticisms of detail which, in some instances, have been so extended as to threaten the previous acceptance of its fundamental principles. It seems to me that some confusion of mind has arisen from the inclusion of the two Corporations in the one Bill, though there is no such confusion in the Bill itself. I see them as two entirely separate conceptions. The Overseas Development Corporation is, as I have said, the lineal descendant of the development and welfare policy inaugurated by the Acts of 1940 and 1945. Time had shown that £1,000,000 a year was inadequate to make any real impression on the low standard of life in the Colonies. The same was also true, indeed, of the later figure of £5,000,000 a year. Then it became obvious that the Treasury rule that any sum not spent in the year of allocation should be returned to the Treasury and lost was also an unreasonable restriction.
  In 1945 the Governments were encouraged to plan for ten years ahead and the sum available was increased to £100,000,000. At the same time the old idea that the Colonies must depend entirely on their own resources and must aim at a balanced Budget every year was tacitly abandoned. Originally the annual Budget started as an annual statement of the Government's intentions over the next twelve months, but the demand of rigid financial orthodoxy in London had turned the Budget into a set of fetters on foresight and forward planning. The 1945 Act was intended to lay the permanent foundations of basic economic and social services, but it became steadily more obvious that welfare must wait on development, or at least go hand in hand with it. Improved health and education and increased production are interdependent. At present Colonial production is basically inefficient, and the

  709
  inefficiency is tied up with a network of tradition and suspicions, outworn systems of land tenure, tribal custom, and innate conservatism. It was realized that, great as was and is the contribution made by private enterprise to the development of Colonies, there remained a whole field of development which private enterprise, for a variety of reasons, was unable or unlikely to touch. And so the idea of a Colonial Development Corporation took shape, with the intention of supplementing, not supplanting, private enterprise, of stimulating it and of working at times hand in hand with it.
  Last year, after protracted negotiations, the Nigerian Government had already brought into being the Cameroons Development Corporation, with a capital of close on £2,000,000, by which the ex-enemy plantations of the Cameroons were taken over by a. Board on which the Government, business ability, and the people were jointly represented. In the instance of that Corporation, the lands are vested in the Governor on behalf of the people and profits are to be devoted to future development and to the welfare of the people of that area. I quote this as an example in miniature of one modern approach to the development problem. It is not that the day of private enterprise is over, but the day of unfettered private enterprise is dead. There is nothing fundamentally wrong, after all, in development by private enterprise, just as there is nothing criminal in success.
  I remember that eighteen years ago I was seconded from the Colonial Service to work as Governor of North Borneo at the request of the court of directors of one of the last of the chartered companies. It was a refreshing experience for a civil servant. I learned a great deal and amongst the things I learned was that a board of business men in the City of London could guide the destinies of a Colonial territory and look after its people with at least as much enlightenment and sense of responsibility as the Colonial Office itself. Indeed, in these modern corporations I seem to see the old chartered company rising like a phoenix from its ashes, in a new dress—a chartered company with a Government halo, shorn of administrative duties and concerned only with production and industry and welfare. However that may be, the awakening we see to-day is that
  710
  of Government to its direct responsibility for the welfare of people still in statu pupillari, and the realization that there is a whole field of developmental endeavour unlikely to be tackled by private enterprise.
  After all, profit must be the main and first motive of private enterprise, while the new field of Government operation by Corporations places benefit to the country and people first, with an avoidance of ultimate loss as an essential ingredient of stability. Businessmen are to be given a dominant position on the board of the Corporation, presumably because there is needed their instinct and flair for what can be made commercially sound, and also their ability and experience to ensure it. I admit that we need businessmen of wide vision who look beyond the immediate years, who can commercialize: hope and amortize idealism—in short, who can build better than they know. There is no basis at all, as I see it, for the fear that the Corporation may enter on fields already satisfactorily occupied by old-established businesses, because that would not be development in any true sense of the word. The Overseas Development Corporation will be concerned first and last with the welfare, in the broadest sense, of the particular Colony and its people. It is true that the economy of our Colonies, and particularly of our African Colonies, is interlocked with that of Britain and Western Europe. Each needs and is needed by the other, and their prosperity must needs be mutual. So consultation with local inhabitants and their representatives on subsidiary boards, or whatever means are adopted, becomes an essential and educative feature of the system proposed.
  To turn now to the Overseas Food Corporation, I regard this as different in ancestry and in conception-—so entirely different as to justify at once the distinction in the Bill. As I see it, this Corporation, with the world as its potential sphere, is the child of necessity. It is born of the war and the ensuing world shortage of food. It is an attempt by the British Government to shoulder one of its joint responsibilities; an attempt to help others at the same time as we are helping ourselves. In fact, it is another example of calling in a new world to redress the balance of the old. We share in the worldwide need of more food. In oils and fats

  711
  alone we are told, on the highest authority, that there is an annual world shortage of 4,000,000 tons, and that hardly in this generation will the world catch up with its diminished production and its increasing needs.
  The Corporation's first object is an increase in our own and therefore in the world's food supplies. It can operate anywhere, but it can operate in a British Colony only on the invitation of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and with the welcome and good will of the local Government. If it does so enter a Colony it will do so under the fundamental terms of the dual mandate principle in the interests of the Colony and in those of the world. The object of its foundation is, surely, the betterment of the world, and permission to operate in a Colony will entail further the control of its activities so that they also contribute to the betterment of the Colony concerned. It seems to me, I must say, almost superfluous to add such a condition. All corporations operating to-day, whether Government or not, are subject to such control. Their activities would not be permitted at all if they were detrimental to the interests of the Colony.
  Speaking as a Colonial civil servant and, I think I can say confidently, on behalf of the Colonial Civil Service, we welcome both Corporations wholeheartedly; and we particularly welcome the wisdom of the decision not to launch the Overseas Food Corporation under the aegis of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Surely, the best way to prejudice the position of the Colonial Secretary would be to place upon him the ultimate responsibility for the Overseas Food Corporation. The difference between the two Corporations may appear to us to be only one of emphasis—the Development Corporation placing the interest of the Colony first and that of the world second, and the Food Corporation placing the interest of the world first and that of the Colony second. It is probable that the Food Corporation will be invited to operate in a Colony only when those two interests are equal in importance and run parallel to each other. But I, at any rate, am glad that the Colonial Secretary has not been placed in the invidious position of seeming to serve God and Mammon. The division of functions between the Colonial Secretary
  712
  and the Minister of Food is calculated to allay any suspicion of divided and conflicting interest on the part of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. I appreciate that the reputation for fairness, impartiality and justice of the Colonial Secretary is in reality the reputation of the British Government in all its operations—not of any particular Ministry.
  May I say that I should warmly repudiate any suggestion that members of the Colonial Service would be over-awed by the sponsor of the Food Corporation into neglect of their duties of supervision. Nor does the suggestion of rivalry between the two Corporations, which has been made in other places, make any sense to me, knowing how they would work on the spot. May I in passing be allowed to point out that although the ultimate responsibility for the two Corporations will rest with the Colonial Secretary and the Minister of Food, their executive management will, presumably, rest with the respective boards. Heaven forbid that either Dover House or Montagu House should take an active part in their executive work. That way must lie disaster and frustration of the very purpose for which the personnel of the board has been so carefully selected.
  Equally, I hope that members of the Colonial Administrative Service will not be diverted from the pressing and urgent calls of their own proper work to take an active part in the management in any of these schemes. We all know that during the war it was a case of all hands to the pumps. The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton—whose magnificent work as Resident Minister in co-ordinating the war effort in West Africa won the admiration of all of us out there—would, I am sure, agree that the Administrative Service has now urgent and pressing arrears of work in its own sphere. To meet a temporary war emergency he had to use emergency powers and any staff he could lay hands on. But just as you cannot indefinitely overload a railway and neglect all maintenance and repairs without risk of complete collapse—the Nigerian Railway being at present a case in point—so you cannot overload a Service and neglect the proper limitation of its functions without risking the collapse of all that it stands for. As I see it, these Corporations—the Development Corporation in particular—have to steer a middle course

  713
  somewhere between those starry-eyed gentlemen who wish to paint Utopia on a. background of eternity, and the purely business outlook which refuses to consider any proposition unless the prospects are adequate and immediate. I take it that what we want is romantic realism—progress with a business sauce; in fact, dreams & à la mode, with the icing supplied by a business board.
  I have noticed in what has been written and said about this Bill, a tendency to enlarge the: functions of these Corporations until they would seem to comprise all the functions of Government itself. Surely, the problems of health, tropical medicine, research, soil erosion and the like, are only incidentally the concern of the Corporations. Obviously they must so direct their activities as to prevent or avoid any aggravation or repetition of mistakes of the past. But a large-scale attack on, shall we say, the evil results of soil erosion in the Eastern Provinces in Nigeria must surely be the special concern of Government itself, and, in any case, the value of work done in this long-term fight against geological Nemesis is hardly capable of expression in any commercial corporation's balance sheet. The time taken is too long. The Corporation will have enough to do with a less ambitious limit than the earth and sky. Indeed, when one contemplates the possible field for legitimate activity by the Development Corporation, one realizes how relatively small is the sum now allocated to their use.
  I do not propose to go into details about how the Corporations should or could set about their work, nor do I yield to the temptation to stray into criticism of the working of the East African groundnuts scheme. I recall from my Fiji days the caustic rejoinder of C. B. Fry in, I think, 1937, to a very vocal critic of the English Test Team's batting at Sydney in that year. He turned on him and said: "It is a curious thing that the best cricketers always seem to be sitting in the pavilion." Sitting now in the Westminster pavilion myself, I am free to say that no member of the Colonial Civil Service could fail to appreciate that retort, although they are debarred by their Trappist vows from making any such remark. I should like to add my Colonial voice in warm appreciation of this Bill. It would be idle to
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  deny that difficulties lie ahead; that perhaps too extravagant hopes are entertained of early results; that higher prices do not necessarily spell higher production unless the terrible shortage of equipment and consumer goods can be relieved; that the interest of local committees and the attraction of local capital may take longer to excite than we could wish. Of course, the British taxpayer does not look for profit save in the ultimate gratification of our mutual and reciprocal needs. But in this Bill the idea of economic interdependence and mutual aid receives an official christening, and we can hope that it will grow to a healthy maturity.
  Perhaps I may be allowed one word of caution. It is true that there is an urgency behind both Corporations. In the case of the Food Corporation it is the urgency of a hungry world. In the case of the Development Corporation the urgency is not so great, or certainly not so universally obvious, but still it is an urgency—to strengthen the economy and raise the health, earning capacity and living conditions of the Colonies so that they may stand on their own feet. The social services, the educational, medical and other facilities planned and demanded must all be paid for, and those of us who have studied the question know that the bill will be immense. So we must make economic haste. But let us not make haste too recklessly. We are dealing with human beings, and to make a success of schemes for their welfare and for the welfare of the world we must carry them with us and have their sympathy and understanding. An intricate complex of traditions, habits and customs, of religious and cultural preconceptions and prejudices makes up the life of any society. The too hasty introduction of new ideas and methods may be like dropping a spanner into the slowly moving machinery of native social life. I am sure that the eminent business men who will be in control of these operations will give full consideration to the need of local knowledge and of full consultation with local people, official and unofficial, who are able to advise. These Corporations are expected at least to pay their way but not to look for profits. I expect to see them pay large dividends. Surely the dividends which they should pay are the prosperity and happiness, the gratitude

  715
  and comradeship of rising partners in the British Commonwealth of Nations.
  I should like to make one last point. It concerns an aspect which is not so easy to present. The Development and Welfare Acts have provided machinery and means to deal with the social and economic structure of the Colonies. The Bill before your Lordships provides the same for the expansion of production and industry. But there is one thing lacking, an essential thing to my mind. What is needed to attract business enterprise and capital, whether it be local or European, and, having attracted it, to enable it to thrive? It can be expressed in one word: Stability. In many parts of the Colonial Empire—and of most of them I have personal experience—the political programme hurried on from London (and I am not now speaking of official hurryings on, I am speaking of the general public) and spurred by foreign criticism has created conditions of instability which, in themselves, hinder and repel enterprise and so put further away that economic sufficiency without which all the talk about self-government and fitness for it becomes mere talk.
  The Colonial Civil Service knows that civil liberty needs economic security to be safe or to have any meaning at all. But. one of its most difficult tasks is to inculcate the meaning of civil liberty. I have the temerity to remind your Lordships that Bills such as the one before us, impressive boards of business men, and the displaying of great financial generosity, will be powerless unless you have a Colonial Service inspired by the sense of mission which only a great policy and a great faith in it can preserve. I say without hesitation that you have today a Service worthy of your trust. The recruits who have come to the Service recently are of the quality which the situation demands; but—and it is a very large but—they need your trust and your support. No Service can defend a half-held faith. And to us in the Colonies it has sometimes seemed that faith at home has faltered. Words about economic progress and improvement in the standard of living cannot supply or make up for a lack of faith. It has sometimes seemed in these troubled times that we doubted ourselves.
  A talented American has recently restated the case in clear terms. He says
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  that talk of democracy and freedom and self-government, used like incantations and not the counters of clear thought, have lost their magic power. They have to be thought and lived. Men have recently died for them. With humility, I too ask that we should make no confusion of life's machinery with its moral purpose—of aims with methods—that we should not, in planning the details of production, overlook the far more important planning of the environment that will automatically tend to release production and to promote liberty. The Colonial Service asks neither to be smothered in platitudes nor crucified on a cross of gold; but to be given the spiritual support, the spiritual essence which lies beyond the grasp of the economist. I look back to my early days in the Colonial Service, and earlier still to the beginning of this century, and I recall the words written at the end of his life concerning those days by the late Lord Tweedsmuir:
  "Those were the days when a vision of what the Empire might be made dawned upon certain minds with the force of a revelation. To-day the word is sadly tarnished. Its dreams, once so bright, have been so pawed by unctuous hands that their glory has departed. Phrases which held a world of idealism and poetry have been spoilt by their use in bad verse and in after-dinner perorations. But in those days things were different. It was an inspiration for youth to realize the magnitude of its Imperial heritage and to think how it might be turned to spiritual uses.
  I dreamed of a world-wide brotherhood with the background of a common race and creed, consecrated to the service of peace. We believed we were laying the foundation of a federation of the world.
  The 'white man's burden' is now an almost meaningless phrase; then it involved a new philosophy of politics, and an ethical standard, serious, and surely not ignoble."
  So wrote John Buchan. The call is renewed to-day. The young men are there again looking for leadership and support—the men, as Kipling said, who
  "… must cheapen self to find
  Ends uncheapened for mankind."
  But they have to be given the confidence that they will not be abandoned with their work half done; that we mean to press on with the task of training and fitting the Colonies for self-government, and equally that we mean to carry on with that task until the proper time comes to relinquish it; that we have a policy transcending all emergencies, even the greatest emergency of all which we are facing to-day. We

  717
  need for leadership and success something more than money and brains and business sense; we need that indefinable quality, compact of character and vision, which has never been lacking in our race. I support this Bill because I believe that behind it that spirit still lives; that what raises our Colonial policy above Party and above pettiness is the fact that in it the head and heart are only minor partners with the national soul.
  As has been written:
  "Is there not pardon for the brave
  And broad release above,
  Who lost their heads for liberty
  Or lost their hearts for love?
  Or is the wise man wise indeed
  Whom larger thoughts keep whole,
  Who sees life equal like a chart
  Made strong to play the saner part,
  And keep his head and keep his heart
  And only lose his soul?"
  I conclude with the words of one of the greatest of moral leaders—Lincoln:
  "The occasion is piled high with difficulty and we must rise with the occasion."
  I support the Bill.
  5.50 p.m.
  VISCOUNT TRENCHARD: My Lords, I am indeed fortunate to be the first speaker after the noble Lord who has just sat down. Your Lordships, I feel sure, would wish me to congratulate him on your behalf. He came to this House with a great reputation, and we all agree, after listening to his speech, that that reputation is not rated too highly. He brings a wealth of knowledge of Colonial life and he has made a most valuable contribution to this debate. We look forward to his helping us in future debates to a fuller understanding of the Colonial Empire.
  There are two separate projects embodied in the Overseas Resources Development Bill—the Colonial Development Corporation and the Overseas Food Corporation. They are separate and their origin was different. The Colonial Development Corporation is almost, but not quite, a descendant of the original Development Corporation Fund, which was started in 1929 with power to spend up to £1,000,000 a year—which, incidentally, was never fully spent. In 1945 a new Act providing for a fund of £120,000,000 was introduced by Mr. Oliver Stanley and was passed. The Colonial Development Corporation, which is established under this Bill, has a capital
  718
  of £100,000,000 with which to carry out any type of economic, as opposed to social, development in the Colonies. This Corporation has power to do almost anything, and it will not confine itself to really big undertakings.
  Mr. Creech Jones, speaking in another place on December 2,1947, said that it is a Colonial Corporation to promote projects of all kinds in the Colonies. It is to lend its aid to public and private bodies already operating in the Colonies. It will found new corporations—I repeat "new corporations"—for specific purposes. It will encourage projects of a co-operative kind with which the people will be directly associated. It may possibly go into the field of industry or into mining operations, if necessary. Indeed its operations will cover a complexity of subjects. And, of course, it will be tremendously preoccupied in its earlier days in the investigation and sorting out of the kind of projects which it could support and generally encourage. We have, however, to remember that the money that is provided for it has to cover all the Colonies, and there are a great many of them. In other words, this Fund has as its first object the economic development of the resources of the Colonies. So much for the Colonial Development part of the Bill.
  I now turn to the Overseas Food Corporation. I think I ought at this stage, as is customary, to inform the House that I am interested in this side of the Bill. I am Chairman of the United Africa Company who are at present the managing agents for the Tanganyika groundnuts scheme and will be the managing agents until the middle of this year—about August, I believe. It will then be taken over by the Overseas Food Corporation. We are the managing agents for the Minister of Food until that time. In this connexion, I should like to say a word, if I may, to thank the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, who spoke from the Liberal Front Bench and who referred to the work that was done by those who initiated this project in the Company of which I am Chairman.
  At the end of 1945 the situation appeared to be very serious to those who were conversant with the supplies of oils and fats. They saw that a grave crisis was at hand and that the shortage of

  719
  those fats for the whole world, throughout the British Empire an in these Islands in particular, was going to be catastrophic. Mr. Frank Samuel, managing director of the United Africa Company, realized the dangers ahead. He naturally had a wide knowledge of tropical Africa, and he looked round the world to see what could be done. He conceived and thought out the Tanganyika groundnuts scheme. He wrote one of the most remarkable documents it has ever been my fortune to see—one of only seven pages outside appendices. It contained definite proposals for the large-scale production that is now included in this Bill—proposals for a scheme of sufficient size to benefit the British Isles and the whole world. In addition, the scheme provided for the production in a few years of a sufficient quantity of fats to replace a large part of the shortage; and yet it was a scheme that could go on producing indefinitely.
  Mr. Samuel sent that scheme to the Minister of Food, hoping that it would be a contribution towards the solution of the crisis that was rapidly coming upon us in those days. Within a remarkably short time, a Government Mission was sent out to investigate the possibilities on the spot. The Mission reported, within a very few months, that the scheme was almost correct in detail and certainly correct in its broad outline. Before the scheme was sent to the Minister of Food, its author naturally and almost automatically looked into the question of how it would affect the Colonies concerned, and whether it would help them or be harmful to them. He therefore indicated undeveloped land, virtually unpopulated. There are many such places in Africa and in the world. He also had to choose land where climatic conditions—that is, rainfall, and so on—were suitable. Therefore, for the major part of this scheme he indicated the practically empty and tsetse-ridden land in Tanganyika.
  It was thus apparent at once that the scheme was conceived for the benefit of the housewives of this country and for the improvement of the standard of living here and throughout the world. It would also develop the Colony of Tanganyika to an almost unbelievable extent. First of all, it would clear large tracts of that country of tsetse fly and would make
  720
  them fit for habitation. Secondly, it would lead to railway and road construction, and would improve and develop land where before there was nothing but bush. It would necessitate the construction of new harbours and the extension of old ones, again benefiting the country. The actual work was started only in April of last year—that is not a year ago yet—and already over 15,000 acres of bush have been cleared. It must be realized that this project covers an area of 5,000 square miles of country. Roads have to be improvised and constructed, ports improved where the landing facilities hardly exist, and, as the Food Minister said in another place, all the bulldozers and other mechanical vehicles had to be collected from the beaches of the Pacific and from all over the world.
  The vastness of the enterprize undertaken by the Overseas Food Corporation in the East African groundnuts scheme cannot be measured in terms of money. It has to be translated into human labour power and mechanical power, and has to be measured against the background of the distance from the base, the lack of communications and accommodation and the primitiveness of the labour. If you heard of a project for clearing a few thousand acres of the New Forest, with equipment coming to a modern port like Southampton, with all the advantages of communication and skilled men, you would say, if it had to be done against time and in a few months, that it was some feat of enterprise. Consider then this task of clearing over 3,210,000 acres of African bush and forest, in areas literally without communications, with a port totally inadequate in its present size to meet the demands placed upon it, with roads that at all times are inadequate and which virtually disappear for four months of the year, with practically no telephone communication and with an inexpert African labour force. Considered in this way this scheme takes on heroic proportions. Difficulties of supplying from a base 6,000 miles away are another matter that has to be taken into account.
  I want to say a word about the pioneering band of men who are out there. There are four or five hundred Europeans and four or five thousand Africans, working and living under pioneering conditions, and getting on enthusiastically with the

  721
  job. They see the urgency of it more than any man I know. I have seen some of them who flew home recently, and they are fully seized with the urgency of this scheme. Generally speaking this Bill has been welcomed, I understand, by all Parties. The only major criticism has been referred to by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, and that is whether this Overseas Food Corporation should be under the Colonial Office or under the Ministry of Food. With regard to this first point, may I say a few words in support of what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, this afternoon? Even the noble Viscount who put forward his criticism did not press his argument, and merely asked for information. His only major criticism was that the Overseas Food Corporation is not to be under the Colonial Office.
  Under this Bill, however, it is plain that the Overseas Food Corporation, besides undertaking the Tanganyika groundnuts scheme, will work all over the world—in the Dominions, in foreign countries as well as in the Colonial Empire, if asked so to do by the respective countries. It is, therefore, clear that a Corporation responsible to the Colonial Office could not possibly undertake development in countries outside the British Empire. If the Overseas Food Corporation were to be transferred to the Colonial Office, still another Corporation would have to be set up to take over this sort of work outside the Colonial Empire. It may be said that there are no projects in view outside the British Empire, but I would remind your Lordships that there have already been tentative inquiries from various countries all over the world, asking for the views of the managing agents on the subject, and even whether the Food Corporation would feel inclined to go into other projects abroad. We are hoping to build up in the Overseas Food Corporation a Corporation that will have all the expert knowledge that can possibly be obtained on the subject of large-scale mechanical agriculture. As I have said, there have already been several tentative inquiries by experienced people from different countries about this scheme.
  There is one other point. In the past, private enterprise invested its money all over the world. It carried out projects everywhere, in concerns such as railways.
  722
  There is no country into which it did not put its money. I look upon these Corporations as new instruments by which we can step up, as Lord Milverton said, the tempo of development enterprise to meet increasing need. They supplement, but do not supplant, private enterprise. In this way we shall be able to ensure that Britain continues to play a leading part in developing these great schemes all over the world.
  I would like now to turn to the suggestion which has been made in another place and elsewhere, that African people would prefer to work for a Corporation under the control of the Colonial Office rather than the Ministry of Food. I hold no brief for either the Ministry of Food or the Colonial Office. Anyhow, both the Colonial Office and the Food Office have welcomed this. It is purely wishful thinking to say that the African people would prefer to work for a Corporation under the control of the Colonial Office rather than one controlled by the Ministry of Food, and the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, said as much this afternoon. In Tanganyika the Africans have no conception of the difference. Indeed, in the areas where the groundnuts scheme is in operation, most of them can scarcely distinguish us from Europeans of any other nationality. They do know the Resident Governor, the Government of England and the King and Queen. They look to their Governor, and they have no conception of what is the set-up of the Government in England with regard to the Colonial Office or the Food Ministry.
  If this Corporation is to work in the Colony—and again Lord Milverton has made this point—there ought to be an independent authority such as the Colonial Office to watch its activities, to see that the interests of the residents are protected; just as, if this Corporation were to work in the Dominions, the Dominion Government would watch its activities, and again, in a foreign country, the foreign Government would watch its activities to see that it did nothing harmful to the interests of the country. In other words, the Colonial Office and the Governor should be able to sit in judgment on the activities of the Overseas Food Corporation in a way quite impossible if the Colonial Office were itself operating and directing the scheme.

  723
  The managing agents, as I have said, hand over in August of this year. The Corporation has already appointed various officers and they have been out to the country and have been working with the managing agents. In fact the managing agents are now working practically alongside the people who are to have responsibility for the development when the Government Corporation fully takes over. This has been done in conjunction with the Ministry of Food. It has gone forward as one band. Practically speaking, most of the people now working for the managing agents will automatically work for those members of the Ministry of Food if responsibility is transferred. Those members have known all the difficulties that we have encountered with their people, and they are imbued with enthusiasm for their task. I ask you to consider seriously what would be the result were the whole organization now to be transferred to the Colonial Office. I am perfectly certain that it would make the task of this large enterprise practically impossible, and would cause very serious delay. The Colonial Development Corporation will have its hands very full and could not undertake this additional work, nor does it wish to do so.
  There is one more matter to which I should like to refer. This particular Food Corporation will, I feel, prove of inestimable value to the housewives of this country and of the whole world. But there are many other projects which will occur to the minds of those who have travelled through the Colonies, particularly those who have been engaged in private enterprise—schemes to develop the waste spaces in Africa, not only the groundnuts scheme, but schemes for cattle, for ranches, and schemes like those for the palm oil plantations in the Congo.
  I would like here to refer to what Mr. Ernest Bevin, the Foreign Secretary, said the other day in his great speech on foreign affairs in another place. Referring to the proposal for a Western group and speaking particularly of Africa, Mr. Bevin said:
  "These overseas territories are large primary producers, and their standard of life is evolving rapidly and is capable of great development. They have raw materials, food and resources which can be turned to very great common advantage, both to the people of the territories themselves, to Europe, and to the world as a whole."
  724
  Mr. Bevin—again speaking about Africa—went on to say:
  "Therefore, if we get the plan, we intend to develop the economic co-operation between Western European countries step by step, to develop the resources of the territories with which we are associated, to build them up a system of priorities which will produce the quickest, most effective and most lasting results for the whole world. We hope that other countries with dependent territories will do the same in association with us."
  All that refers to Africa. Surely that is great justification for going on with all speed with the groundnuts scheme and, possibly, with others like it. The great Continent of Africa lends itself to all these great projects, and it would not be right to go on with any of them if they were really harmful and not of benefit to the country itself. But, as I have already explained, the contrary is the case. Finally, may I read an extract from a paper by Mrs. Huxley which appeared in the Journal of the Royal African Society the other day. It reads:
  "What is now increasingly obvious is that it is not European but African peasant farming that is uneconomic, and that if these territories are to avoid disaster, the African must somehow learn to emulate the European and abandon a way of farming which is inexorably and quite rapidly destroying the fertility of the land.
  "We have at present no justification for assuming that the great expansion in social services for which Africa is crying out—and especially health and education—can be indefinitely supported by the present economic foundation."
  Well, my Lords, we first of all stopped wars and continuous tribal fights in Africa. This increased the population enormously. We then introduced various health measures, and these again made the population increase a thousand times more. And now, if we are afraid to develop that country economically, because we shall be accused, by the ignorant, of exploiting it, as we have been many times and for many years, then starvation will stare its people in the face—starvation due to that enormous increase in the population brought about by us—because there will be no means of making that increase in food production which is now necessary to support the population. In other words, we have given the Africans peace and health, and now we must surely teach them to develop their countries with the aid which mechanical agricultural implements can

  725
  give, realizing that if we fail to do this there will be starvation on a colossal scale. For these and other reasons, which I have stated, I support this Bill.
  6.17 p.m.
  THE LORD BISHOP OF SHEFFIELD: My Lords, it is desirable that some spokesman from this Bench should join with those who have already spoken in welcoming this Bill and in congratulating the Government on bringing it forward. We are particularly grateful for Clauses 7 and 8, which seem to us to express that sense of responsibility towards the inhabitants of our Colonial Empire which we should all feel. We realize, also, that they express not merely an ideal, but what has in fact been the best tradition of our Colonial Civil Service for many years past. There is one other feature in Clause 8 which gives us great pleasure—namely, the emphasis on consultation with other bodies or groups who have the care of these peoples very much at heart. We know that that has been the practice in the past, and we are glad that it is going to be embodied in this Bill. There have been days—they are rather far off now, one is glad to know—when economic development often meant the exploitation of native peoples. If this Clause 1s fully honoured, as no doubt it will be, that should always be prevented.
  It is true that, here at home, social planning in its early stages does deprive ordinary people of the guidance of social tradition; and I imagine that that is even more true when you are dealing with more primitive peoples. Therefore, the emphasis on welfare is well laid, and we hope that it will be interpreted not just in a materialistic or humanistic sense but also in a spiritual one. If these peoples, drawn from primitive tribes, are to be introduced into industrial conditions, those responsible for them in that stage of transition should care for the whole man and not just for what might be called the embryo economic man. They need to have some philosophy of life which will enable them to stand the strain of that process more adequately than will the religion of primitive tribes. We are glad to think that in the plan already made for the East African scheme this conception of welfare has been generously and fully interpreted, and we believe that if this Bill goes forward, and the enter-
  726
  prises which it makes possible go forward, having always this in mind, nothing but benefit can inure to the native peoples and so to the whole community in general. I have, therefore, great pleasure in supporting the Motion for the Second Reading.
  6.20 p.m.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I intend to cut short my remarks very considerably, in view of the length of the debate up to the present. I cannot leave unspoken, however, an expression of my view that it is fundamentally unsound that a Corporation should be set up by which a para-statal body can go into and either own or hold land under long tenure in a Colony, Dominion or foreign country. I have little doubt that the irruption will be welcomed with open arms, but once the honeymoon is over I fear that diplomatic incidents of the gravest order may well occur. This seems to me particularly true of any organization under the charge of the Minister of Food. We have to beware of the actions of the Minister of Food particularly with reference to the Colonies. He will be welcomed with Hallelujahs, but from what I know of the psychology of native peoples on their way to Dominion status, their growing sense of nationalism renders them particularly allergic to any accusation of exploitation, and it will not be very long before the Minister of Food is dubbed an exploiter of the first order. In so much as he will, we hope, be growing crops that will be whisked straight from the fields to the breakfast tables of Britain, I think the agitators will have abundant opportunity of saying that he is exploiting the poor natives for the benefit of those whom they will soon call the ruling class—the needs of which, from the speeches of the Minister of Food himself, would seem to be much less than those of the local inhabitants who grow the food.
  Another point concerns the question of finance. Some time ago I mentioned to your Lordships the simple truth that capital investment can be financed only out of savings, taxation or inflation. At that time we were doing it out of inflation. The borrowing powers in this Bill are for a mere £50,000,000. That is a modest grub-stake in what the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, has called the game of "Shove Million." I comes on top of

  727
  the borrowing powers of many other Corporations. I have not kept count, but they are well on the way to £2,000,000,000, or even more, and this at a time when we confess that we are unable to save enough to provide for the renewal of our houses and factories. Moreover, we owe £3,000,000,000 odd abroad. Are we not rather dishonest to bring forward a Bill which may make people think we have £150,000,000 to invest in their lands?
  Any money borrowed here has to be honoured either in capital goods immediately or, shortly afterwards, by the provision of bazaar goods for the local inhabitants. We shall want machinery and steel, and the natives will want clothes and bicycles. Those are precisely the things which do not exist to-day. We just have not got them. If we are going to invest in the scheme visualized in this Bill, we can only do so at the expense of our other schemes or by bilking our creditors. It would be completely ostrich-like of us to think otherwise. Our resourcs are already over-stretched. We have heard about groundnuts in Nigeria waiting for transport, while transport is sent to East Africa to move "the bird in the bush" there. We should have been much better off if we had stuck to what we could really grow there, and sent transport to the place where the groundnuts have always been grown.
  What is the alternative to this plan? I think the political objections can be got over only by keeping the Government from operating directly in any of those territories. The territories who want to increase their resources must do so by cooperation with their producers, and if they want loans they must come to us, in the shape of the Corporations, and see what we can spare for them. But the chief and best method of increasing production is for the Government to make conditions under which the private individual will be prepared to risk his money to produce. It is an old-fashioned and unpopular view, but it is true. If anybody is going to be accused of exploiting the natives, let it be an individual or a company, and never His Majesty's Government. An individual can be indicted, and there can be no question of any diplomatic incidents. I can assure your Lordships that the terms and conditions of service under private British employment abroad will always be better
  728
  than those under any body responsible to the Treasury, the Public Accounts Committee and Parliament. By the very nature of things, it is bound to be so. Parliament is the first to cry out if the agents of the public purse pay more for anything than they need.
  Can we get over these financial objections? We just have not the resources at the moment, and no amount of sentiment will conjure them up. We have the choice between waiting until we get them or going to some country which has a surplus of savings and production. The International Bank was designed to meet precisely that state of affairs, but they have a long queue on their doorstep. In these circumstances, I can see nothing for it but to do things on a very modest scale for a long time. We must remember, however, that any particular investment we make of our resources is only at the expense of some other vital investment or else at the expense of our creditors. Whatever methods we can find to develop the resources of our Empire, I am certain, if we want to keep that Empire, that we shall have to ensure that the resulting exports go through the proper market machinery to the best markets. The fruits of the Empire can be guided by Imperial Preferences, but never must they be directed by the Minister of Food.
  6.28 p.m.
  LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I apologize for intervening at this very late hour of the debate. Indeed, I would have scratched, had it not been for one particular anxiety which has not been voiced by any of your Lordships this afternoon and about which I should like to ask the Minister a question. Like the rest of your Lordships, I welcome this Bill. I believe it to be constructive and a fine successor to the 1940 and 1945 Acts. I know the success those Acts have had already in the Colonial territories, and I wish this Bill in future years even greater success. But I am profoundly anxious about the effect upon this Bill of the Havana Charter, which is at present under discussion. If you look at Article 30 of that Charter, you will find a provision which appears to me to say, in effect, that in the event of our signing the Charter, we shall be compelled to buy at the lowest world prices, regardless of the sources from which the goods are provided, and regardless of our Imperial interests.

  729
  Many of your Lordships to-night have stressed a view with which I profoundly agree, that in this Bill there must be no suggestion of exploitation. On the contrary, the one object of this Bill, if it has no other object, must surely be to raise the level of the native population of our Colonial Empire. I am sure all your Lordships will agree with me in that. But if we are going to operate this great scheme in an economic way, and at the same time are going to raise the level of the native population, it is not necessary that we should inevitably produce at the cheapest world price. Undoubtedly in Brazil, for example, where there is sweated labour, they will produce things at a much lower price than we shall be able to produce them in our Colonial Empire. May I quote another example of the immutability of things? If the franc devaluation takes place, as I anticipate it will, the very large number of groundnuts which are produced in French West Africa will inevitably, as a result of that devaluation, be produced a great deal more cheaply than they can be produced in our Colonial Empire.
  I would like to ask the Minister this question: How do we stand in relation to Article 30 of the Havana Charter? And how, if I read the article aright, are we to escape the situation which appears to me to arise under that Article? May I remind your Lordships that under Article 16 we shall be prohibited by the most favoured nation clause from helping by any tariff or any such device the young industries which we hope to raise in the Colonies. I cannot help feeling, if my apprehensions are right—I trust they are unfounded—that the Havana Charter might have a most damaging effect on this Bill, which we all wish success. I hope the noble Earl, when he replies, will be able to explain how we stand under the Havana Charter. I hope that he will be able to reassure me that my suspicions are groundless, and that the scheme will be entirely unaffected by the Havana Charter.
  6.33 p.m.
  LORD ALTRINCHAM: My Lords, I have one criticism to make of this debate in which I am certain all your Lordships still present in the House will support me. It is that it is very unfortunate that a debate of this importance to the Colonial Empire should be taken on an afternoon
  730
  when the House meets late and, in consequence, many noble Lords who wished to address the House have been prevented from doing so. I regret it particularly as one of the older members of the House (I do not mean in length of service, but in years) because it tends to exclude the young speakers; personally, I think that to be infinitely regrettable. I hope that noble Lords opposite will take note of this fact, and not do the Colonial Empire or any part of the Commonwealth the dis-service of arranging these debates on afternoons when those who really wish to contribute to them cannot do so.
  Apart from that criticism, like every other speaker in this debate, I commend the Bill and I wish it well in every way. If one thing will make this debate memorable to me it is the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, on which I should like from this Bench to congratulate him most warmly. He is, indeed, an acquisition to our counsels in this House, and it is a sign of the value that still exists in this House that it mikes a place for men of his ripe experience. His speech was a model both of wit and of wisdom. I listened to it, I hope with profit and certainly with pleasure, from beginning to end. I was glad to hear the noble Lord speak for the Colonial Civil Service. No one could do it with more authority than he. I had the honour myself to belong to that Service for a short five years. I learned to appreciate it greatly. It is one of the finest Services in the world.
  As the son of an old Indian Civil Servant, I should like to say that even that great Service, which has now ceased to exist, has found its superior in the Colonial Civil Service of the present time. The reason I say that is this. With all its tremendous qualities, the Indian Civil Service had one great defect: it concentrated on administration, but never thought enough of how that administration was to be paid for. The Colonial Civil Service, whilst careful not to serve both God and Mammon, must see, as the noble Lord very properly said, that its servants do not appear to believe that all the services which the Colonies require can somehow be fostered and paid for by manna from on high. The wealth that is needed for these services must be produced from the soil, and we can produce it only with the help and co-operation of

  731
  the African peoples. That is a task of immense delicacy and complexity. My noble friend behind me, and some other noble Lords, have spoken of the problem presented by two Corporations. For my part, while agreeing that there is a certain lack of tidiness about this scheme, I am inclined to think that it is well that the production of food, which will obviously be conducted under very great pressure, because of world necessity and the necessity of this country, is not to be made the responsibility of the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
  The great point about private enterprise in all these things was that if private enterprise was conducting any form of exploitation the Government of the Colony, and the Civil Service of the Colony, were absolutely impartial and could see that the population of the Colony received justice in every way, and that No Improper pressure was put upon them. That is still all-important and, for my part, I should not like to see a situation created in which the Civil Service of a Colony appeared in the eyes of the native inhabitants of that Colony to be concerned not only with the good administration of the Colony and the raising of its people but also with pressure to get production hastened in the interests of people living entirely out of their ken. I believe it is most important to keep the Colonial Service in an impartial Olympian position in regard to all these matters. For that reason I, for my part, while I can see certain dangers which ought to be watched very closely, hope that, whatever may be done to tidy up the situation, nothing will be done to involve Colonial Governments and the Colonial Civil Service in pressure for immediate production.
  My noble friend Lord Hawke said some relevant things about the advantage of private enterprise in this matter. I think they are not to be forgotten, and the more private enterprise can be encouraged, the less danger there is of the Government getting into this equivocal position. The other point on which I feel very deeply is germane to it. In West Africa, I believe, the population is adequate to any schemes which are in contemplation. There is no lack of man-power and woman-power, although there may be lack of incentive and desire to bother with all this production. But in East Africa the population
  732
  is very small, and when one considers the Tanganyika groundnuts scheme, the new railways and new ports that are being built—I think there are two new railways in Tanganyika, because there is a considerable length of railway being built to new mines in Kenya—one realizes that a tremendous amount of labour is being taken by the Government for the new military base which is being planned out there. All this strain, coming upon a comparatively small native population in East Africa and in Central Africa—which in any case is apt to be drained by Rhodesia and the Rand—is a very serious matter. I cannot believe that the Governors of the East African Colonies have not already called attention to it.
  In that respect, I beg His Majesty's Ministers not to forget that there is a supply of labour available in another part of the Colonial Empire. I refer to Malta, which is overcrowded. Something must be done for the Maltese, and I cannot conceive a better way of helping them than by taking them out to settlements with their families to work on some of these schemes. In Kenya Italian labour has been an immense success and I saw it before the war in the Italian Colonies. It arrived fortuitously in Kenya, through the prisoners of war, but many of them have stayed behind. They have brought their families to Kenya, where they are working most successfully and are fully earning the very high wages that are paid. Evidence to the African that the white man can work effectively on the land prevents him from thinking that he is mere help while the white man merely exploits. It also affects him in this way: that if he sees that a thing is being done well by a white man he is much more likely to think it worth doing. If it is something which we merely compel him to do, while not doing it ourselves, it is naturally not so attractive to him. That is a human point of view and I am sure it is the African point of view. I beg that His Majesty's Ministers will give serious consideration to that possibility.
  I would like to join the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, in the tribute which he paid to the United Africa Company. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, has spoken of the heroic character of the work which the Company is doing in Tanganyika, and I can assure him that the

  733
  enterprise and endurance shown are very much appreciated in this quarter of the House—and, I believe, in all quarters. There are only two more things which I will say at this hour of the night. One is to reinforce—indeed to press—the question which was put by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd. I think the Government must be careful that the policy of its Departments is correlated in this matter. It is the Departments who are negotiating these agreements, and the Departments who are thinking about Colonial development. I believe in some ways that the undertakings which we have been pressed to make at Havana and elsewhere are absolutely incompatible with the welfare of the Colonies. It means that we should be compelled either to give up these projects or to try and grind the natives down to the lowest rate for production in the world, which is not the object of these schemes. This requires the most serious attention, and I thought the point was very well put by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd. I hope the noble Earl who is to reply will give us some reassurance about it.
  Finally, may I say how deeply I endorse all that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, said about the need for faith in ourselves? At the moment we are being suspected all over the world of a loss of faith in ourselves. We have carried things to a great point of success, and then we have abandoned them. This process of abandonment may be inevitable, and I do not wish to enter into all the examples of it that are going on at the present time. But the effect upon the world and upon our Services is very grave indeed. In Africa the Colonial Service may once again find itself urged to proceed with schemes of political emancipation, the kind of responsibility which they know to be entirely out of keeping with the capacity of the population—demands put forward by tiny half-educated minorities who in no way represent the mass of the peoples or their welfare. This is where the Colonial Service will require help and understanding. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, who can speak with such profound knowledge, should raise the issue in the House this evening, and I hope that whatever Government may be in power in this country in the future, they will remember that to allow
  734
  the demand for political responsibility to outrun capacity, both financial and political, is the most dangerous thing for the welfare of the people themselves and the greatest injustice which they can do to our public servants throughout the Colonial Empire.
  6.47 p.m.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am sure you will agree that the House is really entitled to a little self-congratulation on the quality of this debate. I think a good many of us will regard it, when we look back, as one of a series of quite remarkable debates on the subject of the Colonies that have taken place in this House over a long period of time. I am quite certain that these debates have been one of the most important ways in which we have maintained, and even enhanced, our reputation in the country. I think that is partly due to the fact that we have in this House many ex-administrators of the Colonies and many ex-Ministers who speak from their fund of special knowledge. It is, therefore, in the sphere of Colonial matters that we are particularly well qualified to supplement the work which is done by another place, whose Members have not the same experience of the Colonies either in an administrative or in a Ministerial capacity.
  For this reason I have all the more sympathy with the complaint of the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, that we have had to compress this debate into the limits imposed by a late start. I have no doubt that my noble friend the Leader of the House and the Whips found that it was essential to have the debate to-day, on account of pressure of other business; but I regret, just as the noble Lord does, that a number of noble Lords had to cut down their speeches and that other noble Lords were excluded. I am particularly sorry that we did not have the chance of hearing the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, whose knowledge of the Commonwealth we all respect and whose contributions on other occasions we have all enjoyed.
  I should like on behalf of the Government to thank the House very warmly, for the reception which has been given to this Bill. I think there has been agreement by every speaker, in principle, upon what the Bill sets out to do. The

  735
  only criticism has been directed towards the machinery which the Bill is setting up to carry out its purposes. Before I reply to some of the points that have been made, I should like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Milverton upon his outstanding contribution to this debate, which I think is certainly one of the most remarkable maiden speeches that any of us has heard for a considerable period of time. I do not know really whether I am qualified to say this, because I am only one of the extempore political administrators who have come on or left the stage of the Colonial Office during the long career of the noble Lord. Indeed, as a Minister of State, I fear that I am one of the type of extempore administrators who are adding to a number that is already large. The more usual practice of having Secretaries and Under-Secretaries of State, and Ministers Resident—
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: No. We ceased with the war; you expand with the peace.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The other reason for this attitude is that I am a student at the feet of the noble Lord, and I am only just beginning; so it is perhaps a little presumptuous of me to speak in that way about one of my masters. But it was a speech that was received with the utmost pleasure by everyone who heard it. It was based on a lifetime of service in the Colonies, and it was informed, I think, by that objective approach to the subject under discussion, without any Party bias, which is always the most fruitful attitude of mind in dealing with the problems that we have to deal with in this House. I am sure I am speaking for everyone when I say that we hope very keenly that the noble Lord will address us again on this and kindred subjects in time to come.
  Now I will try briefly to answer some of the points that have been made. I fear that I have not studied the Havana Charter and I do not know the contents of Article 30. I will certainly ask my advisors to examine the Havana Charter, and I will study it myself and let the noble Lord know if I find that there is any conflict between the terms of the Charter and the provisions of this Bill. That applies equally to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, on
  736
  the same subject. Some criticism was expressed by noble Lords of the diarchy or dichotomy or division of responsibility—whatever you like to call it—involved in these two Corporations. I think there is a strong case in theory against any division of responsibility, and that case could not have been made out more clearly and cogently than by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton. But I wonder whether in practice the difficulties are really as great as they appear to be. Surely the parallel is a big industrial or other firm which establishes a business in a Colony. In such cases there is no responsibility to any Government Department, to a Secretary of State or to anyone else; and yet the United African Company, Unilever's and businesses of that kind function extremely well and without conflicting with the interests of the local inhabitants. If the noble Viscount does not think that is a fair comment—
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: No, I am liking the parallel. What I want to know—and I think I should be quite happy if I could be assured on the point—is whether the Secretary of State for the Colonies is going to have within the Colony the same authority and control over the Minister of Food that the Governor and the Secretary of State for the Colonies have over Unilever's.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: That brings me to the second point that I intended to answer and which I think arises more naturally on a point put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Rennell. It seems to me that, provided we are satisfied from experience that private firms can operate a business in a Colony and not conflict with the interests of the Colonial inhabitants and with the responsibilities of the Secretary of State, then that business can be worked just as well by a number of Corporations. The suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, was that we should have a Minister without Portfolio who would control the activities of both the Minister of Food and the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
  LORD RENNELL: That was not precisely what I said. I think I said a new Minister, a non-Departmental Minister, to whom could be given supervision of both Corporations.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: That was what I meant to imply. I should not like to misrepresent the noble Lord. I really think that that would be a superfluous piece of machinery, because in the first place there would in ninety-nine cases out of 100 be agreement between the Minister of Food and the Secretary of State for the Colonies. If there should be disagreement, there is the ordinary Cabinet machinery to resolve their differences. I cannot see the object of adding to the burdens of the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, or of the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, or of any of the Ministers, who are extremely busy.
  I should like to answer more fully the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, about Nigeria, because he was good enough to give me notice of it in advance. I do not think he said, but it has been said, that rolling stock and locomotives which might have been used to evacuate the groundnuts which were already collected in Nigeria had been diverted to East Africa. I do not think any speaker has made that point this afternoon, but it has been made and it should be answered. The truth is that the groundnuts scheme in East Africa has had no effect whatever on the supply of railway material in Nigeria. The Nigerian and the Tanganyika railways operate on different gauges, and it would be impossible to transfer rolling stock from one railway system to the other. Such locomotives and rolling stock as were brought into operation in 1947 were renewals and were acquired irrespective of the groundnuts scheme. The only locomotives otherwise were Army service locomotives. But I am grateful to the noble Viscount for stressing the point. We are fully aware of the importance of getting the groundnuts out of Nigeria as quickly as possible, but the problem is not by any means an easy one. They have to be carried some 700 miles or more to the coast over a single railway.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I know that railway, every mile of it, very well. Is it not a fact that in 1944 and 1945 the most meticulous estimates were put in for what the railways would need, and that in this country in 1945 and 1946 full consideration was given in consultation
  738
  with the locomotive makers and the wagon makers as to where wagons and locomotives were needed? Yet, for some extraordinary reason, the one place which does not seem to have got any is the one place which supplied fats and groundnuts.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I will look into that. But—if the noble Viscount will allow me to continue—I think he will feel that there has been a distinct improvement. The difficulty is that new engines, boilers and wagons, and better repair facilities, were required to do this job in Nigeria. Those requirements we are doing our utmost to meet, and the supplies that are going out have already begun to produce results. The movement of groundnuts in recent months has been substantially above the average of last year. It will be some time before all the new wagons, boilers and railway equipment can be delivered. The main shortage is locomotive power. More new engines will be available in the course of the next few months. I can assure the noble Lord that there has been no Significant loss of groundnuts through deterioration owing to the length of time during which they have been kept there, and that we shall do our very utmost to provide in the nearest possible future the new engines and other railway equipment that are required. I believe that as many as twenty new engines are due in the course of the next few months.
  There remains nothing for me to do except to thank the House again for the great encouragement which the debate this afternoon will give, not only to the Government but to the members of the Colonial Service Who will have to carry out those schemes in the territories in which they will be applied. I think it gives them the sort of encouragement to which the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, referred, and which they need to sustain them under the very trying conditions in which they work, when your Lordships, irrespective of Party, are able to give a welcome in the national interest to a Bill of this kind.
  On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  LORD AMMON: My Lords, before we adjourn, may I be permitted to say that it is proposed, as first Order on Thursday next, to take Princess Elizabeth's and Duke of Edinburgh's Annuities Bill through all its stages?
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, we will gladly meet the convenience of the House in this. I think it is both convenient and appropriate that we should pass that Bill through all its stages as rapidly as possible.
  House adjourned at four minutes past seven o'clock.