Sitting of 22 January 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

TRADE AND NAVIGATION
Accounts ordered,
"relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom for each month during the year 1948"—[Mr. H. Wilson.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  SOUTHERN RHODESIA (PORT OF BEIRA)
  Squadron-Leader Kinghornasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what decisions were taken during the recent discussions between His Majesty's Government and representatives of the Government of Southern Rhodesia about plans to ease the congestion of Southern Rhodesian traffic through the port of Beira.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Gordon-Walker): Following full discussion with the representatives of the Southern Rhodesia Government about the port of Beira, arrangements have been made for certain officials from this country to visit Beira at an early date to advise, in conjunction with the Portuguese authorities, on any immediate steps possible to relieve congestion at the port. The future position of Beira port and railway generally has also been under consideration and a delegation from Southern Rhodesia, accompanied by certain officials from this country and representatives of the Beira Works, Limited, have recently visited Lisbon for a discussion with the
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  Portuguese Government. These discussions are being continued through the diplomatic channel.
  Squadron-Leader Kinghorn: Can my hon. Friend give us any indication of any hope that during 1948 we shall get better facilities for berthing, and, if necessary, increased wharfage, at Beira as a result of these discussions and these gentlemen going out?
  Mr. Gordon-Walker: It is difficult to promise whether there will be more wharfage—actual quay space—partly because it is under the control of the Portuguese Government, and partly because of shortage of supply. We are confident that the flow of ships and the arrangements for queueing them up will be improved in 1948.
  Mr. Wilson Harris: Is it anticipated that the railway and port will be capable of handling coal exports from Wankie?
  Mr. Gordon-Walker: No. I think it would not be possible to hold out such a hope. It would be difficult to handle coal from Wankie in any substantial quantities through Beira because Beira is already jammed up. If Wankie coal is to come out on any large scale some alternative outlet will have to be found from Southern Rhodesia.
  Mr. Scollan: Have the Rhodesian Government ever considered the possibility of getting the coal brought through to Wallfish Bay?
  Mr. Gordon-Walker: It is not for me to answer for the Southern Rhodesian Government, but in the discussions they have had with us that has been one of the chief possibilities discussed.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: Has any new scheme been arranged for the extension of the port facilities at Beira?
  Mr. Gordon-Walker: Yes, Sir. There was a joint technical inquiry by Portuguese and British enginers, and they made a joint and common report about the money and the materials which must be used in two stages to improve Beira. The Portuguese Government have, in general, accepted this report, but the question of making supplies available is, of course, very difficult in this world of shortages.

  BURMA (SERVICE PENSIONS)
  Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what provisions His Majesty's Government are making for Anglo-Burman and Anglo-Indian men and women, Class 2 and 3, late of the Public Works Department and the Police of Burma.
  Mr. Gordon-Walker: Virtually all the Anglo-Burmans and Anglo-Indians in question became, or were qualified to become, citizens of the Union of Burma on the Transfer of Power. In the Burma Gazette of 8th November, 1947, the Government of Burma reaffirmed their obligation for pensions and other service payments to members of the Services who are Burma citizens, or British subjects domiciled in India or Pakistan. The Government of Burma also issued Press communiques on 25th September, 1947, and 26th September, 1947, assuring the Anglo-Burmans a fair share of Government appointments in the Union, and assuring Indians of their future in service under the Government of Burma.
  Sir W. Smithers: Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that any claims from this fine body of people will be sympathetically considered, and generously dealt with?
  Mr. Gordon-Walker: Does the hon. Member mean consideration by the Government of Burma or by His Majesty's Government? I cannot answer for the first.
  Sir W. Smithers: Will the hon. Gentleman take steps, as far as is in his power, to see that these claims are properly considered?
  Mr. Gordon-Walker: We could not take steps to ensure that they are properly considered, but we have no doubt they will be. We have very friendly relations with Burma.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    U.S.S.R. Grain Ship (Reception)
    Sir Richard Aclandasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he will arrange that the first ship bearing grain from the U.S.S.R. is met, on its arrival, in a way which will manifest the satisfaction which is felt at the
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    conclusion of the present agreement and the hopes for wider agreements to come;
    (2) whether he will invite the responsible authorities of the U.S.S.R. to send on board the first ship bearing grain to this country a representative delegation of Soviet citizens who might be entertained, inter alia, at some of the factories likely to be involved in making the goods which we shall send in return.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): His Majesty's Government have already given abundant proof of their satisfaction at the conclusion of the agreement and also of their desire to promote friendship by visits of the kind suggested, but I do not see any reason why these shipments of grain should receive a special official welcome not given to shipments from our friends in the British Commonwealth and from other countries.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: Would it not be much more appropriate to express approval and satisfaction when ships arrive with grain from countries within the Empire, which are our real Allies?
    Commander Noble: Could the Minister say whether the 12 wives could be sent in this ship?
    Mr. Beswick: Would my hon. Friend agree that in those cases there has not been all the anti-propaganda such as the Soviet Union have had to face, and therefore that the suggestions embodied in these two Questions would be most useful?
    Mr. Wilson: This agreement is a trade and not a political agreement. I think we have to treat the arrival of this grain, which we greatly welcome, in the same way as we treat the arrival of food from other countries.

    American Tobacco (Imports)
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the import of tobacco from America has been completely stopped; and when a further consignment is expected in this country.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No purchases of tobacco from the United States have taken place since the end of October, but tobacco bought before then is still arriving and will continue to arrive for some time. I am not in a position to say when any further purchases are likely to be allowed.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: Are we not to have any further contracts so long as the dollar position is difficult?
    Mr. Wilson: I do not think I have much to add to what has been previously said. We have stopped purchases of tobacco in the United States. No decision has been taken on the date when they will be resumed, and I am not in a position to say when that decision will be taken.

    Members' Letters (Replies)
    Mr. Palmerasked the President of the Board of Trade when the hon. Member for Wimbledon can expect a reply to his letters of 8th May, 24th July and 26th September of last year on the subject of the difficulty experienced by a firm in his constituency in obtaining cotton yarns.
    Mr. H. Wilson: A reply has now been sent to my hon. Friend. I much regret the failure to reply earlier.
    Mr. Palmer: While I accept the apology in a personal sense, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that all letters from his Department to Members of this House will be given absolute priority?
    Mr. Wilson: I am constantly going into this question to see how we can speed up replies to letters, not only to Members of this House, but to everyone.
    Major Guy Lloyd: Is there in fact any precedent whatever that letters to Members of this House should receive absolute priority?

    Chocolate (Import Licences)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the issue of import licences to chocolate manufacturers will be continued during 1948; and why so many difficulties are put in the way of granting these licences.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I assume the hon. Member refers to the import of chocolate confectionery. The possibility of continuing these imports during 1948 will depend on negotiations with the supplying countries. I am not aware that any special difficulties are put in the way of importers, but it is necessary for the Ministry of Food to scrutinise applications before a licence is issued in order to ensure that the prices are reasonable, and that the quantities are within the quotas allowed from the countries concerned.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am a seeker after truth? He did not answer all of the Question. Imports and exports should be made known to the public, in view of the very many unfortunate happenings taking place today.
    Mr. Wilson: With regard to the first part of the Question, we are always aware of that. I shall be very glad to consider what steps could be taken to bring to the notice of the public what is happening in this matter. The imports of chocolate, to which the hon. Member's Question referred, has been chiefly associated with the war shattered and very soft currency countries whom we are trying to help back to economic stability and whose trade position with us is such that we can safely take chocolate from them without wasting dollars.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the President aware that the hon. Member is sitting on the right side to face the truth, but he does not seem to like it?
    Mr. De la Bère: I have nothing to hide, and nothing to fear.

    Industrial Overalls
    Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchisonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the hardship experienced by many people engaged on work for which the wearing of overalls is necessary, owing to the poor durability of such garments; and if he will either make working overalls coupon free, or else increase the number of coupons issued to persons at present in receipt of the industrial ten coupons.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No, Sir. The industrial overalls now produced are in general of sound and durable quality and are superior to much of the prewar production. If, however, the hon. and gallant Member has in mind a particular case of inferior quality, and will let me have details, I will look into the matter. As regards the second part of the Question, I regret that in present circumstances I am unable either to make working overalls coupon free, or to increase the "Industrial Ten" supplement.

    Hand-loom Weaver (Application)
    Mr. Marloweasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware

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    that Mr. Albert Baldwin, of 34, Hamilton Road, Brighton, was blinded and rendered handless in the Western Desert; that in consequence he has been trained by St. Dunstan's to earn his living by weaving cloth on a hand-loom especially designed for him; and why in the circumstances his Department has refused him a coupon allotment with which to acquire the necessary cotton thread, and has thereby prevented him engaging in this occupation.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am unable to trace any application from Mr. Baldwin for facilities to obtain cotton yarn. If the hon. Member will give me particulars of the case I will gladly look into it.
    Mr. Marlowe: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this case has been brought to the attention of his officers? Has he made sufficient inquiries to find out why the allocation has been reduced?
    Mr. Wilson: I have made all the inquiries I can, but I would be glad to look at it again.

    Taxi-Cabs, Edinburgh (Tyres)
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchisonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that taxi-cabs in Edinburgh are having to be laid up owing to the shortage of tyres, with consequent inconvenience and hardship both to the public and to the owners of these vehicles; and if he will take steps to increase the supply of typres to the proprietors of taxicabs.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I understand that the cabs referred to are fitted with semi-obsolete sizes of tyres. The production of these sizes is irregular owing to the heavy demands for normal sized tyres for new equipment, replacements, and for export. Manufacturers are doing their best to meet demands as occasion offers.

    Clothing Coupons (Servicemen)
    Mr. Heathcoat Amoryasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the hardship and inconvenience imposed on sailors, soldiers and airmen by their inability to purchase any civilian clothing; and whether he will now arrange for the necessary issue of civilian coupons to enable these young men to wear civilian clothes when off duty.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Members of the Forces serving on a regular engagement have since last year been receiving coupons at
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    the rate of 30 per year for use in the purchase of civilian clothing. The first issue was made last June to cover the year October, 1946, to September, 1947, and the second issue is being made this month.

    Clothing (Coupon Values)
    Major Guy Lloydasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that in London and some provincial towns in England women's clothes have been sold recently in large quantities at half coupon rate; whether it was done, with his approval; and whether retailers in Scotland are being permitted to hold sales of women's clothes at corresponding reductions in coupon values.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The regulations permitting sales at half-coupon rates are of long standing, and no special approval for such sales is needed. My information is that the quantities of clothing sold in this manner recently were relatively small. The regulations apply to the whole of the United Kingdom, and I have reason to believe that they are well known to retailers in Scotland.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we have had sales in Scotland at half coupon rate, and if the hon. Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd) had been really awake following New Year's Day, he would have known that thousands of pounds' worth of goods were disposed of at Glasgow at half coupon rate?
    Mr. Wilson: As my hon. Friend has said, sales have been going on in Scotland.
    Mr. Collinsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the hardship occasioned to retail drapers under the regulations applying to the sales of clothing at half-coupon rate; and if he is prepared to make an adjustment of this rate, and also a refund of excess Purchase Tax.
    Mr. H. Wilson: No, Sir, but I am considering whether, in the light of the change in the price level since the rates were fixed, there is any case for adjusting them. The question of Purchase Tax is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Collins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that owing to the coupon difficulty these goods have had to be sold at a

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    third or a quarter of the Purchase Tax actually paid, and that this is a most unjust handicap; and will he look into this matter again?
    Mr. Wilson: I have said that I am considering this matter.

    Anglo-Soviet Trade Arrangements
    Sir W. Smithersasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement of progress in the trade arrangements with Russia; and give details and times of how payment and delivery is to take place in each country; and what goods in either direction have been delivered to date.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Since the signature of the Anglo-Soviet Agreement on 27th December I have had talks with the Federation of British Industries and the Trades Union Congress who will be closely concerned in the deliveries of capital equipment to Russia, and I am glad to say that I have received assurances that they will co-operate fully in implementing the Agreement. Arrangements have been made for close consultation between all parties concerned, including the Soviet Trade Delegation who are already in touch with individual firms, and I hope that we shall shortly have the pleasure of welcoming members of a Soviet Purchasing Mission to this country. As to the second part of the Question, payment will be made in sterling for shipment both ways. Prospective delivery dates foreshadowed for certain specified items of equipment are indicated in the Agreement, but the terms of individual contracts are matters for the firms themselves. Deliveries from Russia will be effected in accordance with the contracts already concluded. The answer to the last part of the Question is that no deliveries have yet taken place.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that adequate arrangements have been made for prompt payment?
    Mr. Wilson: Oh, yes, and as the hon. Gentleman will have noticed, the Agreement provides for substantial shipments of grain immediately from the Soviet Union before our first deliveries really begin to take effect. We have given the Soviet authorities every assurance that
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    there will be prompt payment for the grain.
    Captain John Crowder: Is any of this grain being conveyed in British ships?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, practically all of it. It was not possible for us to arrange for the ships to be at the Black Sea ports as soon as the grain was there. We have been negotiating for the chartering of one or two Soviet ships, but from the beginning of next month, British ships will be arriving, and practically the whole of the grain will be carried in British ships.

    Food Parcels(Confiscation)
    Mr. Keelingasked the President of the Board of Trade if all food received by post from abroad and not marked as a gift is confiscated, or whether the addressee is given an opportunity to prove that such food is a gift; and what steps have been taken to notify senders of such gifts that they must be so marked.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Whenever a food parcel is detained by the Customs as not complying with the gift parcel concession, an opportunity is given to the consignee to apply for an import licence and furnish evidence that the parcel is a bona fide gift. Details of the gift parcel concession have been widely circulated both in this country and abroad.
    Mr. Keeling: Does the President of the Board of Trade agree that these controls, if they are necessary at all, ought to be more lenient and elastic, since the more parcels are let in the further the supplies of other food will go round?
    Mr. Wilson: I am always prepared to look further into the matter. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular case in mind perhaps he will provide me with particulars.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Could the right hon. Gentleman say what happens to half of these parcels, or even to a third of them? Not one third of them arrive in this country.

    Business Premises (Rents)
    Mr. Piratinasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the exorbitant increased charges being asked by lessors of business properties in

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    London and elsewhere, he will take immediate steps to ensure that such rents are controlled at a reasonable level.
    Mr. H. Wilson: There is no power to control rents and premiums charged for business premises. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Skeffington) was informed in reply to a Question on 11th December, the Lord Chancellor has decided to appoint a Departmental Committee which will consider, among other matters, whether it is desirable or practicable to control rents charged for business premises.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Will it be within the terms of reference to control prices at which business premises are offered for sale by speculators and others?
    Mr. Wilson: I should like notice of that question.

    Hotel Managements (Leaflets)
    Mr. Joynson-Hicksasked the President of the Board of Trade why his Department issues at the taxpayers' expense leaflets to be issued by individual hotel managements; and whether leaflet [90926] 15331/6860 7000 6/46 51/1 is designed to attract tourists to this country.
    Mr. Wilson: The leaflet to which the hon. Member refers says simply, "Please bring your own towel." Towels cannot be made generally available to hotels and hairdressing saloons and many establishments prefer the request to visitors to provide their own to be made officially. The total number of these leaflets printed in the last five years is only 135,000. As regards the second part of the Question, the leaflet is not intended to go to overseas visitors. Some provision was made for them, however, under a scheme announced on 5th December, 1946, whereby more than 180,000 coupons for towels were made available to some 1000 establishments catering for such visitors.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that taxpayers very much resent the Government utilising their money for the production of leaflets of this sort, and will the Government endeavour to improve the facilities available in hotels by the production of more towels?
    Mr. Wilson: I have already said that the hotel trades were extremely anxious that these facilities should be provided
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    for them. So far as the supply of towels is concerned, I have said what has been done. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will realize the supply position at the moment.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Are the overseas visitors exempted on the anticipation that they will not take baths, having studied the public declarations of the Minister of Fuel and Power?
    Wing-Commander Hulbert: Did 135,000 leaflets produce 135,000 towels?

    Basic Materials (Wholesale Prices)
    Colonel Clarkeasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the comparative rise between 1939 and November, 1947, in the wholesale prices of British coal, and other British-produced basic materials, such as bricks, timber, steel, cement, wool, milk, and oats, subsidies and transport costs not to be taken into account.
    Mr. H. Wilson: With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT showing the increases in the price of representative kinds of the commodities mentioned, so far as particulars are available.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Could the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the coal referred to will be clean or dirty coal?
    Following is the statement:
    Increases in the wholesale prices of the undermentioned commodities between August, 1939, and November, 1947, excluding where possible, the effect of subsidies and transport costs.

    Per cent.

    Coal:

    Lancashire Best House, at pit

    106

    Yorkshire Best House, at pit, Leeds

    92

    Yorkshire Hards, at pit, Doncaster

    139

    Bricks: Common Building ex works

    75

    Steel: Billets, basic, soft, untested ex works

    85*

    Cement: Ordinary Portland, ex works

    65

    Wool: Average market price of British wool

    145

    Milk: Wholesale price delivered England and Wales

    122

    Oats: White (milling) oats, ex farm average London and Liverpool

    178

    * Inclusive of subsidy and transport costs. If the average subsidy on steel were added the increase in price would be raised to 115.

    Whisky Exports (North Africa)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the President of the Board of Trade what were the exports of whisky from Scotland to North Africa in December, 1947.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Total exports of whisky to North Africa in December, 1947, amounted to 513 proof gallons valued at £1,019. Exports from Scotland are not recorded separately.
    Mr. Hughes: Could the Minister give any information on the report which appeared in the Scottish Press on 30th December that an aeroplane left Prestwick Airport in my constituency with two crates of 24 bottles of whisky for the Leader of the Opposition?
    Mr. Wilson: Such shipments are not separately specified, but if the hon. Gentleman would care to put a Question down I will look into it.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that when this report appeared in the Press some of the old miners in my constituency complained that they could not get a nip? If there are any of the 24 bottles left, would he pass them over to me to distribute?

    Sheets and Curtains, Liverpool (Coupons)
    Mr. Keenanasked the President of the Board of Trade why pairs of bed sheets are offered for sale at 31s. 8d. and 33s. 8d., with 14 coupons, bed sheets at 23s. 6d. and 37s. 6d., with 12 coupons, bed sheets at 42s. 6d. with eight coupons, and pairs of bed sheets at £4 2s. 3d. without coupons in Liverpool stores.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The coupon rates for sheets vary with size, but quality, as well as size, enters into the price. Moreover, non-utility sheets are subject to Purchase Tax, whereas utility sheets are not. I am not aware that any sheets are now being sold without coupons and if my hon. Friend will send me details I will look into the matter.
    Mr. Keenan: Is the Minister aware of the discrimination that is applied to those who are in need of bedding? Does he know that those who are prepared to surrender coupons, and who have them to surrender, can get sheets, and that
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    those who have no need to surrender coupons, as long as they have money, can buy them without coupons? That is discrimination.
    Mr. Wilson: The only discrimination is in the size of sheets, which is not unreasonable. If there are people getting sheets without coupons, I would like to have particulars.
    Mr. Piratin: Is not the President of the Board of Trade aware that, in the case of curtains, the more expensive type can be obtained without coupons while coupons have to be given for the cheaper ones?
    Mr. Wilson: This Question relates to sheets; there is a later Question about curtains.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does that cover iron curtains?
    Mr. Keenanasked the President of the Board of Trade why curtain materials are offered at prices approximately 12s. 6d. and 2⅔ coupons per yard, and similar curtain materials are offered at 33s. 9d. per yard without coupons in the Liverpool stores.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Broadly speaking, curtain material is rationed or not in relation to its interchangeability with dress material. Utility curtain material is all rationed and closely price-controlled and is reserved for docket holders. The type of non-utility material which is unrationed carries a very heavy rate of Purchase Tax.
    Mr. Keenan: Will the Minister take into consideration the fact that those who are in need of curtain material can get it without coupons if they have the money, and that is not fair?
    Mr. Cecil Poole: Will not the right hon. Gentleman do something to relieve the very considerable resentment felt by housewives at being unable to buy curtains after six and a half years of war and two years of peace, whereas those who have unlimited money can buy all the curtains they want?
    Mr. Wilson: I have been looking into the curtain situation personally recently, having run into some of the difficulties to which hon. Members have referred, but

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    there are very great difficulties about the proposal which has been made. I am prepared to have another look at the matter.
    Mr. Bramall: Would it not be possible to have a great deal more cheap utility material if the material which is now sold, often at high prices, was not put on sale?

    Printed Matter (Imports from Eire)
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the President of the Board of Trade since when and for what reasons the bulk importation of all literature from Eire is prohibited; and whether in the interests of good relations between the United Kingdom and Southern Ireland he will consider adjusting the existing regulations.
    Mr. H. Wilson: My hon. Friend appears to have been misinformed, as licences to a considerable value for the import of books and periodicals from Eire have been granted during 1947 and are still being issued. Import of books and other printed matter from Eire during the first eleven months of 1947 were valued at over £267,000 compared with about £100,000 in the same period of 1938.

    Empire Migration
    Mr. John E. Haireasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the number of emigrants from this country to the various Dominions since the end of the war; the number of immigrants to this country from the same Dominions; and corresponding figures for the same period after World War I.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Average monthly figures for emigrants to the Dominions were just over 11,000 for 1919, 1920 and 1921 and just over 6,000 to the same Dominions from the end of the last war to September, 1947. Corresponding figures for immigrants are 3,700 and 1,900. I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate detailed figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Haire: Would my right hon. Friend give the widest publicity to this sort of information because there has been much comment, much of which is mistaken, on the question of emigration?
    Mr. Wilson: I think that this Question and answer will give whatever publicity is required.
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Is there not also the factor of shortage of shipping at present, and is it not true that a large number of people want to go who are unable to obtain passages?
    Mr. Wilson: There is such a shortage, and there was at the end of the last war as well.
    Following are the figures:

    NUMBER OF BRITISH MIGRANTS TRAVELLING DIRECT BY SEA BETWEEN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND THE UNDERMENTIONED DOMINIONS DURING THE YEARS 1919, 1920, 1921, 1946 AND THE FIRST NINE MONTHS OF 1947.

    —

    Year.

    British Emigrants from the United Kingdom.

    British Immigrants into the United Kingdom.

    British North

    1919

    79,109

    34,435

    America (a).

    1920

    118,837

    24,341

    1921

    67,907

    21,055

    1946

    53,000

    9,000

    1947*

    14,765

    5,847

    Australia …

    1919

    12,545

    6,171

    1920

    28,974

    12,854

    1921

    27,751

    8,861

    1946

    10,000

    5,000

    1947*

    8,096

    3,948

    New Zealand

    1919

    4,455

    2,304

    1920

    14,853

    2,568

    1921

    11,513

    1,568

    1946

    6,000

    1,500

    1947*

    4,584

    2,167

    British South

    1919

    4,756

    6,215

    Africa (b).

    1920

    15,157

    7.313

    1921

    12,903

    5,894

    1946

    11.000

    9,000

    1947*

    19,057

    3.667

    (a) Canada and Newfoundland. Separate figures are not available.

    (b) Separate figures for the Union of South Africa are not available. The figures include migrants to and from Southern Rhodesia and other British countries in the area.

    * Particulars relate to the first nine months of 1947.

    Artificial Teeth (Imports)
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the President of the Board of Trade why he has authorised the expenditure of 502,072 dollars between January and November, 1947, on the import of luxury artificial teeth from the U.S.A. when to the knowledge of the Board of Trade Messrs. Hawtins, Limited, of Blackpool, produced similar or better class teeth during the war sufficient for this country's needs, and

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    this firm have now stepped up production enabling them to export their teeth throughout the world.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The imports were, as to the greater part, for re-export and were authorised to preserve our entrepot trade. The remainder were made under the Token Import Scheme, about which I made a statement on 18th December in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Monslow).
    Mr. Low: When the right hon. Gentleman made this statement on 18th December, he referred to goods which are essential. The questions which I wish to ask tiim are these. Are these teeth of any better quality than those made in this country and are they considered as essential goods? The second question is—Is he aware that American firms are frequently advertising in this country that their particular form of artificial teeth are in abundant supply and that effective continuity of supply is assured, and that a copy of this advertisement has been sent to the right hon. Gentleman's office?
    Mr. Wilson: On the first question, the token import scheme is designed particularly to relate to goods considered less essential than goods supplied under bilateral trade arrangements and other trade arrangements. There are a number of countries who are not very happy about our concentrating imports purely on essentials, and who want us to take small quantities of less essential goods in return. I am not responsible for advertisements which people choose to put in papers, but it is a fact that home producers of artificial teeth are doing a good job.
    Mr. Parkin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that American teeth and the British smile have already caused considerable misunderstanding in other parts of the world?
    Captain Crowder: In view of the large stock of artificial teeth in this country, will the Minister give an assurance that he will not import any more, and would he agree that British teeth are best?
    Brigadier Head: Is it not the policy of the Ministry of Food to make teeth nonessential in this country?
    Captain Crowder: Can the Minister give me an assurance that no more artificial teeth will be imported from America?
    Mr. Wilson: I am quite prepared to agree that British teeth are second to none, and I am certainly prepared to agree that stocks of teeth in this country are of a fairly high level, but, in negotiating this agreement, we had to take into account the things which other countries insisted upon having.

  FUEL AND POWER

    Consumers' Councils (Membership)
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what are the names of those now appointed to both the Domestic Consumers' Council and the Industrial Consumers' Council; what in particular is his policy in connection with the inclusion of Members of Parliament on these Councils; and what are the principles guiding him in his selection of the members of these Councils.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the announcement giving the membership of these Councils which was issued by my Ministry to the Press on 17th July last. The principles upon which the appointments were made followed the requirements of Section 4 (2) of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act. There was nothing to prevent a Member of Parliament being nominated by any of the bodies selected as being representative of the interests concerned or to prevent the Minister appointing a Member if he thought fit.
    Mr. Cooper: In so far as I understand the functions of these councils, they are to give advice, and, as Members of Parliament are appointed to the Post Office Advisory Committee and the Regional Committee on Broadcasting, would it not be a good thing to see that Members of Parliament are also appointed in this case in order that the position may be watched; and will my right hon. Friend give further consideration to the matter?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have already explained that there was nothing to prevent Members of Parliament being nominated or appointed to either of these Councils.
    Mr. Peter Roberts: As it is now a year since nationalisatian took place, have these Councils started to function?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the fact that women are the greatest users of all sorts of fuel, he will have any women on the Council?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, the chairman of the Domestic Consumers' Council is a woman.

    Regional Offices, Yorkshire
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaiteasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will appoint a regional officer for the East Riding of Yorkshire.
    Mr. Gaitskell: No, Sir.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that, owing to the intense pressure on his Leeds office, which covers such a wide area, there is inordinate delay in dealing with cases from the East Riding, and that decisions which have been given have showed an almost complete ignorance of the geography of the area?
    Mr. Gaitskell: There was a serious delay in the later months of 1947, not only in Leeds but in other offices as well, but I am glad to say that the delay has now been very considerably reduced. Setting up a separate office for the East Riding would not reduce the delay; if it would, I would consider it, but I am quite certain it would make things worse.
    Mr. Wadsworth: Is the Minister aware that the regional office in the City of Leeds is a considerable distance from many parts of the East Riding; and, furthermore, judging from the number of letters that I receive, there is a lack of understanding of the problems of rural districts in the minds of those who deal with applications in Leeds, which is the centre of a very large industrial area from which most applications come?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I could not accept the assumptions on which the hon. Member is speaking.
    Mr. Odey: Will the Minister bear in mind in this matter that there are 300,000 citizens of Hull whose needs are being administered from Leeds, which is 55 miles away, and is he aware of the great inconvenience and hardship caused to them?
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: On a point of Order. In view of the completely obtuse nature of the answer, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.
    Mr. Peter Robertsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) whether he will give power to the Sheffield petroleum office to deal with petrol applications from the Sheffield area, instead of such applications being dealt with from Leeds as at present;
    (2) whether, in view of local dissatisfaction at recent decisions, he will instruct his Leeds petroleum office to administer the supplementary petrol allowance in a fair and equitable manner as regards applications made from the Sheffield area.
    Mr. Gaitskell: There is no petroleum office at Sheffield, and I have no reason to think that applicants residing in Sheffield are treated differently in any way from other applicants in the North-Eastern Region.
    Mr. Roberts: Is the Minister aware that there is grave dissatisfaction in Sheffield over this matter; that letters take a long time to be answered from Leeds; that desperate journeys have been taken to Leeds, but the applicants have not been granted an interview; and will he consider the convenience of the people of Sheffield rather than the convenience of officials in Leeds?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I really cannot accept these aspersions on the officials in Leeds, who are completely impartial in their attitude. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that setting up a separate office in Sheffield would mean more delay.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Has the Minister now discovered the difference between Leeds and Sheffield?
    Mr. Assheton: Does the Minister appreciate that the Government's policy has really broken down his own administrative machine?
    Mr. Roberts: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.

    Hire Car Service (Petrol)
    Mr. David Rentonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is

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    aware that regional petroleum officers have become de facto licensing authorities for taxis, hackney carriages and private hire cars outside the Metropolitan area; whether it is their practice to hear evidence of public need for such services, and to hear representations for or against the grant of petrol enabling such services to be run; whether he is aware that the refusal by regional petroleum officers to grant applications for petrol for private hire services in rural areas is causing much hardship and inconvenience; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Licences from the local authority are required for the operation of taxicabs outside the Metropolitan area and petrol is issued automatically in these cases. The question whether petrol can be issued for a hire car or hackney carriage which does not require a local authority licence, depends in general on whether or not the existing hire car facilities are sufficient for the needs of the public in the district concerned. This is decided by the regional petroleum officer on the advice of the local police. If the hon. Member has in mind any particular case of difficulty, however, I shall be glad to look into it.
    Mr. Renton: Is the Minister aware that it is not a question of a particular case of difficulty, but that it is a general fact that the regional petroleum officers are granting and refusing these licences without an adequate knowledge of the locality, and will he take steps to bring this rough and ready method to an end, and get some sanction of Parliament behind this de facto licensing system?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have already explained that the decisions of the regional petroleum officers are taken on the advice of the local police, and I am satisfied that they are in the best position to advise the Ministry.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman seriously saying that the local police are deciding how much the applicants shall be granted?
    Mr. Gaitskell: No, I said that they were in the best position to advise on the needs of the area—[HON MEMBERS: "Why?"]—because they are most familiar with the transport conditions.
    Mr. Butcher: Are we to understand from the Minister's reply that a man is deprived of his right to carry on his business by the decision of one regional petroleum officer based on a police report?
    Mr. Gaitskell: In every case, it is naturally very difficult to reach a decision. I am being continually pressed by hon. Members to restrict the activities of hire cars, and I assume it is agreed that it is desirable to license them only in that sense and not to give them all the petrol they need. The decision on this matter has to be taken locally, and is taken on the best local advice, that of the police.
    Captain Crookshank: Are the Government to look for advice on administrative matters from the police and no one else?
    Mr. Gaitskell: It is simply that the police are in the best position to advise in this matter. Nobody has suggested anyone else who would give us better advice.
    Captain Crookshank: Then we are drifting into a Police State.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it has not always been the practice that the licensing of taxicabs has been in the hands of the police authorities?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I may also say it has always been the case that the advice of the police has been sought on this particular matter under the Coalition Government.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Are these applicants permitted to see and comment on the reports made by the local police?
    Mr. Renton: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Supplementary Petrol Coupons
    Mr. Rentonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is now in a position to make a statement covering the work of the regional petroleum offices; whether he will, in particular, state how many applications for supplementary coupons were received by those offices between 1st September and 31st December, 1947; how many were refused; how many granted; how many had not been

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    dealt with by 1st January, 1948; and how many gallons of petrol were authorised to be used with supplementary coupons.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many applications for allowances of petrol have been received by his officers since the announcement of the cancellation of the basic petrol ration; how many of these applications have been granted; and what is the total quantity of petrol involved.
    Mr. Gaitskell: During the period 1st September to 31st December, 1947, 1,753,149 applications of all kinds for supplementary coupons were received in regional petroleum offices. Of these, 1,539,655 were granted, 141,676 refused, and 71,818 remained to be dealt with on 31st December, 1947. The allowances are equivalent to an annual petrol requirement of about 885,000 tons or over 265 million gallons. Some idea of the increase in the burden of work in regional petroleum offices may be gathered by comparing the allowances granted in the above period with those granted in the four months ended 31st August, 1947, namely, 1,090,658 allowances with an equivalent annual consumption of 754,000 tons of petrol, or about 226 million gallons. I am glad to say that the position in regional petroleum offices is ndw very much easier.
    Mr. Renton: Is the Minister aware that the distribution of supplementary coupons has been taking place unsystematically and unsympathetically and is causing a great social injustice among all sorts of people in rural areas, and will he use his best endeavours to replace that undesirable system by a fairly administered basic ration at the earliest opportunity?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I do not think that the figures I have given suggest that there has been any lack of sympathy in granting these allowances, but I would certainly agree that the administration of petrol rationing without a basic ration is a very difficult operation, and the Government certainly desire to restore the basic ration as soon as possible.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does the right hon. Gentleman's figure of applications outstanding include those cases in which the applicant has appealed against the refusal?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir, it covers all of them.
    Mr. Assheton: Will the Minister agree that it is not possible for the staff at his disposal to give careful consideration to the number of cases which he has told us have come before them?
    Mr. Gaitskell: No, Sir, I do not agree.
    Mr. Tolley: Can my right hon. Friend say at what rate each week supplementary applications are still being received?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Perhaps I could have notice of that question.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Minister say whether all the allowances were for six months, or were some for shorter periods?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I think that most of them are for the full six months, but I could not say definitely without notice.
    Lieut-Commander Braithwaite: Do not the figures which the Minister has given emphasise the importance of decentralising, particularly in the East Riding of Yorkshire?

    Petrol Economy
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is now able to state the actual saving of the basic petrol cut, taking into account all supplementary allowances.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Philips Price) yesterday.
    Commander Noble: Would the Minister say whether this is the final figure and whether it includes the many applications for allowances which he has told us are still outstanding?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir. The answer to which I referred relates to the saving made in December, and is, therefore, comprehensive.

    Alternative Fuel Permits
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Fuel and Power why it is necessary to obtain a permit to run motor cars on fuel other than petrol.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The Control of Motor Fuel Order, 1947, covers only petrol and other hydro-carbon oils. I am proposing

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    to extend the Order to include Propane and Butane—also sold under the names Calor Gas, Buta Gas and Propagas—because the latter are used for cooking and lighting in rural areas. No permit is at present required for the use of other fuels.
    Mr. Charles Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman also permit the use of windmills for public purposes?

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Prices (Increase)
    Mr. Longdenasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will make public the full reasons for the increase in the price of coal.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The reasons for the increase in coal prices which took effect from the 1st January this year have already been made public by the National Coal Board. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the Board's announcement of 15th December, 1947.

    Imports and Exports
    Mr. P. Robertsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what was the total amount of coal imported into the United Kingdom in the months of November and December; what was the average cost per ton in £s delivered into this country; what was the total amount of coal exported from the United Kingdom in the same months; and what was the average cost per ton f.o.b. in £s.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The quantities of coal imported during the months of November and December, 1947, were 53,448 tons and 15,112 tons respectively; the import value c.i.f. was 98s. 10d. and 93s. 10d. per ton in each case. Exports of coal from this country during the same months were 63,767 tons and 157,663 tons. Export values, according to H.M. Customs and Excise, were 50s. 1d. and 62s. 0d per ton f.o.b. respectively.
    Mr. Roberts: Is the Minister satisfied that this is a very businesslike arrangement?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I can assure the hon. Member that these are only the tail-end of the contracts made earlier to import coal from the United States and Poland for which he was always particularly anxious.
    Mr. Osborne: Was the quality of the coal imported at 90s. a ton and the quality of the coal which we sold at 55s. a ton about the same?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I do not see any reason to suppose that the quality would be particularly different.
    Mr. Osborne: Then it is a very bad bargain.

    Coal Refuse Dumps, Ayrshire
    Mr. McAdamasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will inquire into the refuse dumps adjoining what were once coal pits, in the Dairy area of Ayrshire, with a view to ascertaining what dross can be salvaged from those dumps, and sol for industrial use, either at home or abroad.
    Mr. Gaitskell: So far as I have been able to ascertain, none of the dumps in this area contain dross that could usefully be salvaged and sold to industry, either at home or abroad. If, however, my hon. Friend has information about any particular dumps, and will let me have details, I will be glad to have further inquiries made.
    Mr. McAdam: I shall have much pleasure in sending my right hon. Friend the information.

    CAMPAIGN STAR (A.A. COMMAND)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the recently published despatch from the Commanderin-Chief, A.A. Command, shows that during several periods of the war, including that of the flying bombs, A.A. guns shot down more enemy aircraft than the R.A.F., who were helped by A.A. searchlights, and that during the last period all but two R.A.F. fighter squadrons had gone overseas and the defence of this country rested on A.A. Command; and whether, in view of these facts, and of the destruction by A.A. guns of 822 enemy aircraft and 1,972 flying bombs, he will reconsider the decision to withhold a campaign star from A.A. Command.
    The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I have been asked to reply. The grant of a Campaign Star to

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    the Anti-Aircraft Command would necessarily involve many other categories, for instance, the National Fire Service, in which the proportion of casualties was much higher than in the A.A. Command, the Dover coastal batteries, the ground staffs of the Royal Air Force in the United Kingdom, the police and the Civil Defence organisation. The Defence Medal is granted for these types of service in the United Kingdom and it is not proposed to recommend that the decision should be varied. The Armed Forces are eligible, in addition, for the War Medal. I should explain that, referring to the withdrawal for service overseas of all but two Royal Air Force fighter squadrons, the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, A.A. Command, was writing only of reductions made in the special patrols against flying bombs when the launching sites in France and Belgium had been overrun by the Allied Forces. The number of fighter squadrons left in this country was actually 34.
    Mr. Keeling: Have not Campaign Stars always been reserved for members of the Fighting Services? As the new Territorial Army is to be used very largely for A.A. work, will not the knowledge that A.A. operations, however successful or sanguinary, are not really considered operations at all certainly discourage recruiting?
    Mr. Morrison: I do not think we could very well do that. The case was put very well by the present Leader of the Opposition when he was Prime Minister. He indicated that his difficulty—though sympathetic, as we are—was that, once he conceded the A.A. Command, he must concede the ground staff of the Royal Air Force. And when one comes to the question of risk and the importance of the defence of the nation internally, one could not exclude the Fire Service and the Civil Defence.
    Colonel Dower: If, as was the fact, honours for bravery in the face of the enemy, such as the Military Cross, were awarded to personnel of Anti-Aircraft Command, how can they be denied a Star or a Bar to the Defence Medal, as, otherwise, it is bound adversely to affect recruiting?
    Mr. Morrison: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must face the fact that in the case of home defence against enemy air
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    attack, we cannot make a moral distinction between the various elements, both active and civil, and we should be committed to provide well over a million awards if we once started that.
    Major Haughton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Campaign Star was awarded to the members of the Royal Air Force for their service in this country, and would it not be only fair for the Ack-Ack Command to have a similar decoration?
    Mr. Morrison: I could not say offhand whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman is right or not, but, even if he is, I have no doubt that there was some reasonable ground for this distinction, because Fighter Command in the air is a somewhat different proposition.
    Mr. Keeling: I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    PUBLIC EMPLOYEES (POLITICAL AND CIVIC ACTIVITIES)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Prime Minister how many people are now employed as civil servants in local administration, or by the Crown, either directly or indirectly and permanently or temporarily, in this country; what consideration has been given to the rules regarding their political and civic activities; and in view of the large increase and their varied functions what changes are contemplated in the limitations now imposed on them.
    Mr. H. Morrison: I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister assumes that my hon. Friend requires figures for the Civil Service, local government staff and employees of the socialised industries. They are in round numbers: Civil Service (non-industrial), 700,000; Civil Service (Industrial staff), 400,000; Local Government, 1,500,000; Socialised Industries, 1,500,000. Those in the two latter categories are not, however, civil servants, and the rules governing their political and civic activities are decided by the local authorities and the statutory boards by which they are employed. Industrial civil servants, numbering nearly 400,000, are already allowed a very considerable measure of freedom as regards political

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    and civic activities; as regards the, non-industrial Civil Service the question of modifying the present code has been raised by the staff side of the National Whitley Council. Discussions are pending and, in the meantime, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister prefers not to make any statement.
    Mr. Freeman: Can the Lord President of the Council give any indication when the results of that report will be available?
    Mr. Morrison: I am afraid I could not say. At the moment, it is not a question of a report, but a question of discussions with the staff side of the Whitley Council on their initiative.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Exchanges (Private Interviews)
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Labour what action he has taken to ensure privacy for interviews at employment exchanges as recommended by the Catering Wages Commission.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): The importance of securing privacy for interviewing applicants at employment exchanges has long been recognised by my Department. In many exchanges there are either separate interviewing rooms or other suitable places where privacy is assured. In other offices without such provision, privacy during interviews is secured by the use of separate tables so spaced as to prevent conversation being overheard.
    Sir J. Mellor: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree with the Commission that it is most objectionable that people should be required to discuss their private affairs over the public counter, and will he give an assurance that that sort of thing will bo stopped forthwith?
    Mr. Isaacs: The stopping of that objectionable practice was in operation before I came into Office. The Ministry has long recognised the unsuitability of the position and active steps have been taken to meet the end suggested by the hon. Member. While I cannot give an assurance as to the time when it will be achieved, it is intended to secure the absolute maximum of privacy in these cases.
    Sir J. Mellor: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the report of the Commission published last July this was stated to be a matter of very serious criticism?
    Mr. Isaacs: We know this is a matter of serious criticism, but the need for separate interviewing places has long been established—indeed before the Commission made its report.

    Poles (Engineering Industry)
    Mr. George Thomasasked the Minister of Labour whether the engineering unions have now agreed to the employment of Poles in those branches of the industry producing mining equipment.
    Mr. Isaacs: My negotiations with the engineering trade unions on this question are not yet complete but I regret to say that the Amalgamated Engineering Union has informed me that they cannot agree to the employment of Poles in occupations with which they are concerned. In the circumstances, in view of the urgent need to fill outstanding vacancies on essential work such as the production of mining equipment, I have found it necessary to issue an instruction to my local officers an extract from which I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT, providing for the submission of Poles in certain circumstances where, despite every effort by the local offices to fill the vacancies, it is clear that no suitable British labour is available.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask whether the instruction also applies to the heavy engineering industry, where these men are badly needed and where production is being held up?
    Mr. Isaacs: This instruction applies to all vacancies which would otherwise be filled by members of the Amalgamated Engineering Union.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long these discussions with the Amalgamated Engineering Union have been going on and when they are likely to come to a conclusion?
    Mr. Isaacs: This one has already come to a conclusion.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Would it be true to say that the Amalgamated Engineering Union have accepted many thousands more dilutees than any other union in the

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    country and have there not been complaints of redundancy in South Wales from men who would welcome the opportunity of producing mining equipment?
    Mr. Isaacs: That is correct. The trouble is that, while there may be British engineers available in one part of the country, it is not always possible to transfer them to other parts of the country. Rather than impose a direction compelling someone to move from one place to another, we prefer to see the use of this labour which is available.
    Following is the extract:
    The Amalgamated Engineering Union has informed the Minister that the Union cannot agree to the employment of Poles in occupations with which they are concerned. In view of the urgent need to fill outstanding vacancies on essential work, local officers are instructed to take action as follows where such vacancies are notified:

    (1) Energetic steps should first be taken to find suitable and available British labour. Where there is difficulty, the assistance of the local trade union branch should be sought.

    (2) If, notwithstanding action as in (1), it is impossible to obtain suitable and available British labour willing to take the job, the employer should be informed accordingly. He should, further be advised that if he wishes to employ alternative labour he should consult the local branch of the union. If in the result the Local Officer receives a specific request from the employer for alternative labour, suitable and available members of the Polish Resettlement Corps should be submitted.

    NATIONAL SERVICE (PALESTINE POLICE VOLUNTEERS)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Labour if he will give an assurance that volunteer members of the Palestine Police Force who have 12 months or more completed service in Palestine, will, in view of the strain under which they have had to carry cut their duties there, be released from further National Service on the ending of the Mandate, and will not be transferred to the Army to complete the normal two years' service.
    Mr. Isaacs: Yes, Sir.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Royal Wedding Gifts
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlainasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what sums the gifts and presents received from abroad by Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth on the occasion of her recent marriage represent in the matter of Purchase Tax and Customs duties, respectively; and whether the whole of these amounts was excused from payment.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): Gifts sent from abroad to Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth have so far involved liability to £11,004 4s. 8d. Purchase Tax and £1,310 15s. 8d. Customs duties; the whole of these amounts has been waived.
    Mr. Chamberlain: Will the right hon. Gentleman say, first, on exactly what basis of authority he is able to waive these payments and, secondly, if he has that authority, why does he refuse to waive it in the case of a Brazilian wedding present to one of my constituents which the constituent is unable to redeem?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: The Customs and Excise have authority in certain cases to waive these duties if that should be the proper course to take. In reply to the second part of the supplementary question, as I think I told my hon. Friend when he put a Question before Christmas, these gifts are, surely, in a different category from private gifts. They have come almost entirely from foreign Governments and States and are more a gesture of good will to this country than personal gifts.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Is it customary to make public the liability of individuals in regard to Income Tax or Customs Duty or Purchase Tax and, if not, why was it done in this case?
    Mr. Marlowe: Did not the public exhibition of these gifts result in a vastly greater amount being raised for charity?
    Mr. C. Poole: Is the difference in category not that these presents were sent to someone who can quite well do without them, whereas many other presents are sent to people who badly need them and who cannot afford to pay the Purchase Tax?
    Earl Winterton: May I call attention to page 430 of the revised version of Erskine May in which it states:
    "Unless the discussion is based on a substantive Motion reflections must not be cast in Debate on the Heir to the Throne."
    I would like to ask whether the last supplementary question is not k vulgar insinuation against the Heiress to the Throne?
    Mr. Speaker: There was no reflection on the Heiress to the Throne. The hon. Member was raising the difference, but he did not cast any reflection on the Heiress. However, I quite agree with the noble Lord that it would be wrong to go on.
    Mr. C. Poole: May I make it perfectly clear that if I cast any reflection, it is not on the Crown, but on the Department?

    Purchase Tax (New Motor Cars)
    Mr. Martin Lindsayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the restoration of the Purchase Tax on new motor cars bought during 1947 where purchasers have discontinued licensing them owing to the abolition of the basic petrol ration.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: No, Sir.
    Mr. Lindsay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a considerable number of people of only moderate means now have the feeling that they have been fraudulently treated by the Government, since the Government have collected Purchase Tax on their cars and now refuse them permission to sell them?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Yes, but they can, if they so desire, sell the cars that they have on their hands; and I understand that the British Motor Car Manufacturers' Association will be only too willing to give them permission to resell, if they are bound by any agreement not to sell them within 12 months.

    War Damaged Shop Fronts (Restoration)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that owing to insistence on war damaged shop fronts being replaced or restored exactly as they were originally instead of according to a new design the expense is frequently more
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    than it would have been; and whether greater latitude will be allowed particularly when this involves financial economy.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: My hon. Friend has been misinformed. The owner of a war-damaged property which is not a total loss can make good the damage by works which include reasonable alterations or additions, and is entitled to claim from the War Damage Commission the reasonable cost of the work, up to the amount which it would have cost to reinstate the property as it was before the damage occurred.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the of the House to tell us the Business for next week?
Mr. H. Morrison: Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday, 26th January—A Debate on Welsh Affairs will take place on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Tuesday, 27th January—Committee stage of the Princess Elizabeth's and the Duke of Edinburgh's Annuities Bill and of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Bill.
Wednesday, 28th January—Concluding stages of the Princess Elizabeth's and the Duke of Edinburgh's Annuities Bill and conclusion of the Committee stage of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Bill.
Thursday, 29th January—A Debate will take place on the Geneva Tariff Agreements. The Government will Table a Motion inviting the House to approve the action taken at Geneva.
Consideration of Motions to approve the Import Duties (Geneva Agreement) Order, 1947, and the Silk Duties (No. 1) Order, 1947.
Friday, 30th January—Second Reading of the Royal Marines Bill and of the Post Office and Telegraph (Money) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolutions, and Second Reading of the Water Bill (Lords) and of the Attempted Rape Bill.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: When will the Debate on Malaya, which it was promised last Session would take place in this Session, be brought forward, in view of the urgency of the situation out there?
Mr. Morrison: I do not recall what happened last Session about that, but I should have thought it could quite conveniently be taken on a suitable Supply Day.
Mr. Fletcher: It was promised by the Government.
Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: For today's Debate, will the Government consider extending the Sitting by an hour in view of the importance and interest of the subject?
Mr. Morrison: I must be guided by the general feeling of the House. If it is the general feeling of the House that it would like another hour today, I shall move a Motion for the Suspension of the Rule at the commencement of public Business. I hope it will have the support of the Opposition as well.
Mr. David Eccles: In regard to next Thursday's Business, will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving the House some extra time for the Debate on the Geneva Tariff Agreements, as it is a complex subject?
Mr. Morrison: We had better try to find out the atmosphere between now and Thursday. Perhaps, it might be-considered through the usual channels.
Mr. Maclay: Also in regard to Thursday's Debate, will the Government make some statement on the discussions going on now at Havana, which are related to the Geneva Tariff Agreements? Will that be debatable next Thursday?
Mr. Morrison: I think that is possible, but I will in any case convey the point
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to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
Mr. Vernon Bartlett: May I emphasise that today's Debate is, surely, the most important Debate on Foreign Affairs for a very long time? I hope that the House will have an extra hour.
Mr. Morrison:: We will arrange it. There is tomorrow as well. In my experience of Foreign Affairs Debates, each is the most important that there ever was.
Mr. George Ward: Shall we shortly have a Debate on Civil Aviation, in view of the publication of the accounts of the three Corporations?
Mr. Morrison: I think it is a fair subject for consideration under some procedure, and if that commends itself to the Front Opposition Bench we should be happy to discuss it through the usual channels.
Mr. Braddock: Does the extra time for today's Debate mean that it will be carried on tonight until 12 o'clock?
Mr. Morrison: No, 11 o'clock.
Mr. Austin: In view of the disproportionate amount of time that will be taken up by the Front Bench, may I ask whether another hour will be granted for the Debate?
Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend had better not make those dreary assumptions. He knows we cannot yet tell. I think it is reasonable that the House should have an extension, but I think one hour is enough. If it is carried on for a longer time it will become ragged.

BILL PRESENTED
  LORD HIGH CONIMISSIONER (CHURCH OF SCOTLAND) BILL,
  "to make further provision regarding the allowance payable to His Majesty's High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland," presented by Mr. Woodburn; supported by the Lord Advocate, Mr. Glenvil Hall, Mr. Thomas Fraser and Mr. J. J. Robertson; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 40.]
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Proceedings on any Motion for the Adjournment of the House moved by a Minister of the Crown exempted at this Day's Sitting from the Provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) for one hour after Ten o'clock.—[Mr. H. Morrison.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. William Whiteley.]
3.37 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I realise that there is intense interest in the House in this Debate, which is to last two days. I am also so conscious that what I say can so easily be misinterpreted in other countries that I propose to exercise very great care in the presentation of the Government's position. We are, indeed, at a critical moment in the organisation of the postwar world, and decisions we now take, I realise, will be vital to the future peace of the world. What, however, I have first to put before the House is the factual background against which decisions must now be taken. I do not propose to weary the House with a long history, because every Member is already conversant with it; there have been so many Debates in connection with these problems. I must, however, recapitulate in so far as it is essential for an understanding of His Majesty's Government's proposals for the future.
The story begins with a series of conferences which were held during the war, and at which many ideas were formed. Some were crystallised. Some were not. In this connection, of the political developments that have taken place, one of the
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main issues at that time, affecting the line of subsequent policy was connected with the future of Poland. The solution arrived at at Yalta was looked upon by His Majesty's Government at that time as a sensible compromise between conflicting elements, but there is no doubt that, as it has evolved, it has revealed a policy on the part of the Soviet Union to use every means in their power to get Communist control in Eastern Europe, and, as it now appears, in the West as well. It therefore matters little how we temporise, and maybe appease, or try to make arrangements.
It has been quite clear, I think, that the Communist process goes ruthlessly on in each country. We have seen the game played out in Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, more recently in Roumania, and, from information in our possession, other attempts may be made elsewhere. Thus, the issue is not simply the organisation of Poland or any other country, but the control of Eastern Europe by Soviet Russia, whose frontiers have, in effect, been advanced to Stettin, Trieste and the Elbe. One has only to look at the map to see how since the war, Soviet Russia has expanded and now stretches from the middle of Europe to the Kurile Islands and Sakhalin. Yet all the evidence is that she is not satisfied with this tremendous expansion. In Trieste we have difficulties. We had hoped that the method of international agreement would be allowed to work; but it has not been allowed to work, and so what should have been a great experiment in postwar international collaboration has only been a continuing source of friction and bother.
Then we have the great issue in Greece, which is similar to the others I have mentioned. It has been assumed—in fact, said—that the Soviet Union can wait; that the United States of America and Great Britain will get tired; and that the so-called Government of Communist rebels can be recognised later on without danger; and then, in the end, that a Communist Government will be forced upon Greece, and she will be incorporated in the Soviet system of Communism with the rest. Here, let me make His Majesty's Government's position quite clear. We had hoped to be out of Greece. We had hoped that after the first election a Government would be formed; that in time subsequent elections would take place, and the whole process of democratic

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development would be allowed to function. But that has not been allowed, because a state of virtual civil war has been perpetuated the whole time. So, it is not a question of what sort of elected Government there is in Greece—Liberal, Coalition, or whatever it might be—but it is a ruthless attempt, constantly maintained, to bring that country in the Soviet orbit.
Like Trieste, the Greek issue involves the signatures on treaties recently signed by all of us, all the Allies, including the Great Powers. I would remind the House that Greece had claims for an alteration of her frontiers. I came to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that probably Greece would be more secure if Great Britain did not insist upon that, and that the signatures on the Peace Treaty would have been a guarantee on our honour of her integrity, and there would be no attempt to pursue and trouble her further. But that has not been permitted. I know that I have been pursued in this country on this Grecian question as if it were a question between a Royalist and a Socialist Government or Liberal Government. It is nothing of the sort, and never has been. I beg all my friends in this House to face the fact: This is a dangerous situation. It a case of power politics. We have been trying to leave Greece an independent country and to get out of it; but we also want her northern neighbours, and everybody else, to leave her alone and to get o of it. We will do that immediately they lift their fingers and honourably agree.
I would remind the House that the United Nations have been brought in, but they have been flouted by the Balkan neighbours of Greece. There is a very real danger that they and their Soviet mentors may make a great blunder over this business. In all solemnity, I would advise great care. Provocations like these lead sometimes to serious developments which we, and I hope they, are anxious to avoid. It would be better to settle this matter in accordance with the decisions of the Assembly of the United Nations than in the promotion of civil war, or in giving any kind of recognition to the Marcos junta, or in attempting the methods which have been applied elsewhere. There is the Assembly decision, and if we accept Assembly decisions in other matters, we should accept the
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decision in the case of Greece. I say no more than this, that it is dangerous in international affairs to play with fire.
We have had other examples since the war, which I need not go into now—wars of nerves and pressure upon weaker neighbours. It is the considered view of His Majesty's Government that attempts to settle international affairs by political barrages and by wars of nerves reduce the chances of finding acceptable solutions, and make agreement difficult, if not impossible. Propaganda is not a contribution to the settlement of international problems. They are all so important that the only way to solve them is coolly and calmly to deal with them on their merits. So much for the background of Eastern Europe. I would remind the House that it is under three years since the war ended, and I hope still that, with the right use of power and organisation, these difficulties may be overcome. Meanwhile, we must face the facts as they are. Our task is not to make spectacular declarations, nor to use threats or intimidation, but to proceed swiftly and resolutely with the steps we consider necessary to meet the situation which now confronts the world.
Let me now turn to the background in Germany, which has led to considerable difficulty. Here again: there were recent Debates, so I will confine myself to a limited survey. There was a discussion at Yalta about the dismemberment of Germany. His Majesty's Government have always considered that dismemberment would inevitably start an irredentist movement, causing a resurgence not of a peaceful Germany, but of a spirit of war. For those reasons we have been against it. We, therefore, welcomed the change of attitude that appeared to have evolved by the time we got to Potsdam. In a sentence I will make clear what it was. The proposal was limited to central agencies, to the evolution of a new German State on a new basis; and to do it there was to be economic unity, and a gradual evolution on a Four-Power basis which would lead ultimately to a peace treaty and a German Government competent to sign it.
That, I think, describes in a sentence the approach to the whole problem. After we left Potsdam, things began to go wrong. The central agencies d'd not materialise, and it was not long before we

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discovered, in the Four-Power Conferences in Berlin, that the Soviet Government had taken to hurling accusations at the Western Allies at meeting after meeting, instead of trying to evolve a common policy. Real progress seemed almost impossible. I do not deny that many things were done, and I want to pay my tribute to the Russian representatives who, when free to discuss things on their merits, are grand people to get on with, but who, when it comes to this political business, are held up and this delay and irritation then proceeds. The military governors left to themselves could have settled far more than they did in Germany on the basis of Potsdam, if they had been permitted to do so.
We have had discussions about these problems at the Council of Foreign Ministers, where at every step we have tried to meet anything which might look like a legitimate claim. But, the Moscow Conference last spring was certainly very revealing. We were there over six weeks. It is a matter of historical knowledge that His Majesty's Government devoted time and energy to trying to give that conference a working basis; but any rational meeting, where there was a will to do business could have done in a week everything we did in that six weeks. It was I must confess, very wearying, and even difficult to keep one's temper at times. Calm judgment in the conditions under which we had to work was very difficult.
Then, between the Moscow and London Conferences, other events took place. I will not enumerate many of them, but perhaps the most important development, which brought all this to a head and caused the whole issue of Europe to be focused, was the proposal by Mr. Marshall for a European recovery programme. That brought out what must have been there before. In other words, this programme brought vividly to light what must have been under the surface, and what was responsible for these attitudes ever since the war, and, if I may say so, for some of the events we had to face during the war.
The conception of the unity of Europe and the preservation of Europe as the heart of Western civilisation is accepted by most people. The importance of this has become increasingly apparent, not only to all the European nations as a
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result of the post-war crises through which Europe has passed and is passing, but to the whole world. No one disputes the idea of European unity. That is not the issue. The issue is whether European unity cannot be achieved without the domination and control of one great Power. That is the issue which has to be solved. I have tried on more than one occasion to set forth, in this House and at international conferences, the British policy which has been carefully considered in connection with Europe.
This policy has been based on three principles. The first is that no one nation should dominate Europe. The second is that the old-fashioned conception of the balance of power as an aim should be discarded if possible. The third is that there should be substituted Four-Power co-operation and assistance to all the States of Europe, to enable them to evolve freely each in its own way. As regards the first principle, I am sure this House and the world will realise that if a policy is pursued by any one Power to try to dominate Europe by whatever means, direct or indirect—one has to be frank—one is driven to the conclusion that it will inevitably lead again to another world war and I hope that that idea will be discarded by all of us. It is this which His Majesty's Government have striven and will continue to strive to prevent.
With the old-fashioned balance of power, it was a question of having a series of alliances, and so manipulating them that, as each State moved in a particular direction, it was counteracted. I have no doubt that that led to intrigues and all kinds of difficulties, particularly for the smaller States, which often became the instruments of great Powers. On behalf of His Majesty's Government, I have stated that we will not use smaller powers as instruments of policy to produce difficulties between the larger Powers; thereby giving the smaller Powers a chance to evolve, under the umbrella of the Four Powers, without the feeling of fear or conflict. His Majesty's Government cannot agree to Four-Power cooperation while one of those four Powers proceeds to impose its political and economic system on the smaller States. On the contrary, as public opinion in those States changes, and as their

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economic and social development progresses, none of them will willingly submit to the Great Powers interfering and preventing the introduction of economic changes, or any other changes, which they deem to be for their own good.
There is another factor giving great cause for anxiety. It evolved largely with Hitler and Mussolini, and now, I am afraid, it has become an instrument of a very dangerous kind in Europe, and that is what we describe as the "police State." We did not imagine that this would be maintained after the war, but it is, and it is carried out with ruthless efficiency. I must say, while we hear talk about elections and democracy, that where the police State exists, votes count for very little. It is true that the votes have not disappeared, but it is the voter himself who disappears and the successful candidate if he dares to have an opinion of his own.
As we saw in the Press the other day, some members of parliament in Bulgaria said that they objected to the budget, and they were immediately threatened because they had objected to the taxation proposed. The Americans and ourselves were immediately condemned, and made responsible for these men's opinions about their Budget. I have never known anybody welcome a Budget, especially when it involves increased taxation; and all this is purely nonsensical. I regret these statements, especially by a man like Dimitrov, the former hero of the Reichstag, who now seems to have taken to himself some of the characteristics of the bully and the braggart. This kind of thing creates very great difficulty.
As another illustration, we have the case of Jacob Kaiser, the leader of the German Democratic Party, the Christian Democrats, who has been prevented from leading his party in the Soviet zone of Germany for not bowing to the Soviet will. His friends have been visited in their houses and have been intimidated. The Social Democrats, I may add, had been dealt with and, indeed, suppressed in the Soviet zone much earlier.
One could give hundreds of instances of the subtlety and cruelty of this police State instrument, and I cannot see how a healthy democracy can grow up while it exists. If there was one thing that aroused Britain and made her fight so
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hard in the world war, it was when she realised fully, for the first time, what the Gestapo meant. We hoped that the end of the war would mean the end of the police State, as well as of all instruments of that character. We have always accepted—I would emphasise this—and I repeat it now, that the friendliest relations should exist between Russia and the States on the Russian frontier; indeed, not only on the frontier—we want these friendly relations with everybody. It is madness to think of anything else if we are ever to have peace. That is quite a different thing from cutting off Eastern Europe from the rest of the world, and turning it into an exclusively self-contained bloc under the control of Moscow and the Communist Party.
Mr. Gallacher: That is not true.
Mr. Bevin: The European Recovery Programme brought all this to a head, and made us all face up to the problem of the future organisation. We did not press the Western Union—and I know that some of our neighbours were not desirous of pressing it—in the hope that when we got the German and Austrian peace settlements, agreement between the Four Powers would close the breach between East and West, and thus avoid the necessity of crystallising Europe into separate blocs. We have always wanted the widest conception of Europe, including, of course, Russia. It is not a new idea. The idea of close relationship between the countries of Western Europe first arose during the war, and in the days of the Coalition it was discussed. Already in 1944 there was talk between my predecessor and the Russian Government about a Western association.
His Majesty's Government at that time indicated to the Soviet Government that they would put the establishment of a world organisation first on their list. In any case, they proposed to rely on the Anglo-Soviet Alliance for the purpose of containing Germany, and eventually there might be similar arrangements between France and Great Britain and France and the Soviet Union for this purpose. That was in 1944. We also indicated that it might be desirable to have defence arrangements with Western Europe for the purpose of instituting a common defence policy against the possible revival

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of German aggression, and to determine what role each State should play in the matter of armaments and the disposal of Forces. We indicated that when these matters arose, we would keep the Soviet Government informed, which we did. In 1945, however, there was a great deal of Soviet criticism, especially of this country, over the supposed formation of a Western bloc against the Soviet Union, which was quite untrue. At that time, we had not even had a meeting with our Western Allies to discuss the matter; and yet daily this criticism was poured out on the radio and in "Pravda" and the rest of it—a constant repetition.
When I was in Moscow, therefore, in December 1945, and saw Generalissimo Stalin, I explained that the United Kingdom must have security arrangements with France and other neighbouring countries, just as the Soviet Union had with their neighbours, to which he raised no objection. I stated that whatever we did would not be directed against the Soviet Union. To this he replied, "I believe you." Anything His Majesty's Government do now in this matter will not be directed against the Soviet Union or any other country, but we are entitled to organise the kindred souls of the West, just as they organise their kindred souls. As late as January, 1947, Stalin took a similar line with Field-Marshal Montgomery.
In 1946, I communicated to Mr. Molotov our intention of entering into negotiations for an Anglo-French Treaty. Mr. Molotov expressed interest, and asked to be kept informed. He made no comment. I kept him fully informed about the Treaty of Dunkirk. I have had no communication since about that matter. When the European recovery proposal was put forward in the same spirit, it was offered to the whole of Europe, including Russia. There were no grounds, therefore, for the fear that it was to be directed against the Soviet Union or used for any ulterior purpose. So clear was it that it was intended for the whole of Europe, that in Poland we know that even the Communist Party were anxious to participate. So they were in Hungary and Roumania, and Czechoslovakia even announced her intention to accept the invitation. About Yugoslavia and Bulgaria I never had any precise information.
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Eventually all these States were ordered to abstain. What about sovereignty? We took no step to advise; we merely sent out our invitation for people to answer, and come freely if they wished to. If they did not, we knew that they were not staying away of their own volition.
The House will remember the conversations I had with M. Bidault and Mr. Molotov. At first, I was reasonably hopeful that everyone, including Russia, would play their part in this great offer. What was the idea behind this European recovery programme? First, that we should do what we could for ourselves and in co-operation with one another, and then secure from the American people supplementary aid. If we want to maintain our independence we have got to do all we can for ourselves. I think it is quite right when all neighbours co-operate together to see what they can do for one another. Then if they find they are stuck they can go to a pal to borrow something to help them through. I do not think that that is taking away one's independence.
In the course of the discussions in Paris there came a change, as it was decided by the Soviet Union—and I have very good grounds for accepting this—that rather than risk the generosity of the United States penetrating Eastern Europe and Europe itself joining in a great co-operative movement, the Soviet Union preferred to risk the Western Plan or Western Union—that is to say they risked the creation of any possible organism in the West. My further opinion is that they thought they could wreck or intimidate Western Europe by political upsets, economic chaos and even revolutionary methods.
Mr. Piratin: Why not give the facts?
Mr. Bevin: I will tell the hon. Gentleman in a minute.
Mr. Piratin: The right hon. Gentleman is not telling the facts; he is skipping them.
Mr. Bevin: What Mr. Molotov said at Paris to M. Bidault and myself—
Mr. Piratin: Yes.
Mr. Bevin:—on the last day when we were there was that if we proceeded with this plan, he indicated to us quite clearly that it would be bad for both of us, particularly for France.
Mr. Piratin: If the Foreign Secretary will give way for one moment—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Why does he not say what Molotov said in the first place?
Mr. Bevin: As the discussions went forward since the Paris Conference last June we knew almost the precise dates when these troubles were going to take place, and when these upsets were likely to occur. I must say this is rather unpalatable for me to have to do, but I suggest the world will never get right unless the thing is seen in all its nakedness and probably we will get on a better footing then.
As I have already said, it is no secret that Mr. Molotov threatened both ourselves and France that we would have to look out for these squalls if we went on with the European recovery programme. My answer to him, not boastfully but quietly, was that Great Britain had been accustomed to threats, that we should face them and that they would not move us from doing what we believed to be right. We have not, nor has France or any of the other nations who assembled in Paris deviated from that course. The best evidence that what I am saying is correct, as I am sure the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) will agree, is that the Cominform came into existence very quickly. M. Zhdanov and M. Malenkov are closely associated with it.
It has been clearly stated that the object of that body and of Soviet and Communist policy is to prevent the European recovery programme succeeding. I do not object to them coming to that conclusion, but because they came to that conclusion I do not see why I should be a party to keeping Europe in chaos and starvation. I cannot accept that proposition simply because the Cominform says it in their proposals. The fact is there have been great political strikes in France. Who disputes that they are behind them?
Mr. Gallacher: I dispute it. On a point of Order. When a Minister challenges hon. Members to dispute something and one of them accepts his challenge, is it not recognised courtesy for the Minister to give way in order that the Member can dispute the statement?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order at all. It is for the Minister to decide whether he should give way, and if he does not choose to give way he need not do so.
Mr. Bevin: I am following the Communist philosophy never to give way.
Mr. Piratin: Except to Marshall.
Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member continues to rise in his place and shouts across the Chamber I shall be compelled to take drastic action.
Mr. McGovern: Watch your heads.
Mr. Gallacher: Communists don't sell out.
Mr. McGovern: That is what every Communist does—sells out.
Mr. Bevin: I was once accused by a Communist newspaper of selling out and the courts gave me £7,000 damages. Perhaps the House will be interested to know I never got the order.
I was indicating that these strikes have been taking place and that the intention of the Soviets was to anticipate the interim aid from America so that by the loss of production at home, American aid would be nullified. That is not the way to express love of one's country and for one's own people.
Now for the steps we have taken in connection with this European recovery programme. As soon as I saw it, I submitted it to my colleagues and we felt that here was an opportunity of really trying to get Europe on its feet. The House will agree that we acted with promptness in order to get it going. We had no ulterior motive at all, and we did not intend to attack anyone. I should like to congratulate the staffs of the various Foreign Offices and Governments on the magnificent way in which they worked on this plan with a vigour and agreement which I think was amazing. When the plan was completed the United States officials were prompt to render the friendly aid promised by Mr. Marshall. I should like to pay my tribute to everyone who worked for the practical realisation of the ideas expressed in Mr. Marshall's Harvard speech. The issue is now before the American Congress, and I say no more about it than that we in Europe are not holding back awaiting the decision of Congress; we are doing our best individually and in co-operation to help one another. We shall he able to do it still more when we know the final decision of the United States Congress.

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With all these influences the London Conference was bound up. In spite of what was going on—on which our information was very good—I still went on arranging for the London Conference in November. I confess that events were not encouraging. The flood of abuse against ourselves and the world by M. Vyshinski in New York was calculated to rouse tempers, but I am glad to say it fell very flat with no effect on public opinion anywhere outside the Soviet zone of influence. We still went on trying to get the conference on a proper basis as I reported to the House before the Recess. Every day when there was a proposal discussed and an effort made to reach a practical conclusion we had to waste a whole day listening to abuse of the Western Powers. It is all very well, but everyone in this House is a public man. I ask each one here to try to imagine what it is like to sit there hour after hour and to have thrown at one almost every invective of which one can think and not answer back. I felt very often like the boy who was asked what he would do if he were hit on the one cheek by his school teacher. He said he would turn the other. His school teacher said "That is a good boy, Tommy, but supposing you were hit on the other cheek, what then?" The boy replied, "Then heaven help him." I must confess that I felt very much like the schoolboy, and we had to suppress our feelings.
Now we have to face a new situation. In this it is impossible to move as quickly as we would wish. We are dealing with nations which are free to take their own decisions. It is easy enough to draw up a blueprint for a united Western Europe and to construct neat-looking plans on paper. While I do not wish to discourage the work done by voluntary political organisations in advocating ambitious schemes of European unity, I must say that it is a much slower and harder job to carry out a practical programme which takes into account the realities which face us, and I am afraid that it will have to be done a step at a time.
But surely all these developments which I have been describing, point to the conclusion that the free nations of Western Europe must now draw closely together. How much these countries have in common. Our sacrifices in the war, our hatred of injustice and oppression, our
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Parliamentary democracy, our striving for economic rights and our conception and love of liberty are common among us all. Our British approach, of which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spoke recently, is based on principles which also appeal deeply to the overwhelming mass of the peoples of Western Europe. I believe the time is ripe for a consolidation of Western Europe.
First in this context we think of the people of France. Like all old friends, we have our differences from time to time, but I doubt whether ever before in our history there has been so much underlying good will and respect between the two peoples as now. We have a firm basis of co-operation in the Treaty of Dunkirk, we are partners in the European recovery programme, and I would also remind the House of the useful and practical work being done by the Anglo-French Economic Committee. Through this Committee we have already succeeded in helping one another in our economic difficulties, though at first, to tell the truth, neither of us had very much with which to help the other. But it was useful and the work it did was useful at a very critical moment. We are not now proposing a formal political union with France, as has sometimes been suggested, but we shall maintain the closest possible contact, and work for ever closer unity between the two nations.
The time has come to find ways and means of developing our relations with the Benelux countries. I mean to begin talks with those countries in close accord with our French Ally. I have to inform the House that yesterday our representatives in Brussels, The Hague and Luxemburg were instructed to propose such talks in concert with their French colleagues. I recall that after I signed the Dunkirk Treaty, on my way through Brussels to Moscow, I was asked by a newspaper correspondent, "What about a treaty with other countries including Belgium?" My reply was—I will quote it:
"I hope to sign a similar one with Belgium and with all our good neighbours in the West. The Labour Government will do everything possible to prevent misunderstandings arising from which aggressions might result. You have suffered from two wars; you have twice been occupied in two wars, and England has twice had to fight very hard. Great Britain is still conscious of the great role she has to play. She will do everything possible to prevent a new conflict in the West, whether it will come from Germany or elsewhere."

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I hope that treaties will thus be signed with our near neighbours, the Benelux countries, making with our Treaty with France an important nucleus in Western Europe. We have then to go beyond the circle of our immediate neighbours. We shall have to consider the question of associating other historic members of European civilisation, including the new Italy, in this great conception. Their eventual participation is of course no less important than that of countries with which, if only for geographical reasons, we must deal first. We are thinking now of Western Europe as a unit. The nations of Western Europe have already shown, at the Paris Conference dealing with the Marshall Plan, their capacity for working together quickly and effectively. That is a good sign for the future. We shall do all we can to foster both the spirit and the machinery of co-operation. In this context I am glad to be able to tell the House that as a practical immediate measure to make our relations with Western Europe closer, His Majesty's Government are proposing to relax the ban on tourist travel. I shall have more to say on this subject a little later.
Our formal relations with the various countries may differ, but between all there should be an effective understanding bound together by common ideals for which the Western Powers have twice in one generation shed their blood. If we are to preserve peace and our own safety at the same time we can only do so by the mobilisation of such a moral and material force as will create confidence and energy in the West and inspire respect elsewhere, and this means that Britain cannot stand outside Europe and regard her problems as quite separate from those of her European neighbours.
Now with regard to the tourist traffic. This is a step which we propose to take pretty soon, I hope in the early summer, provided such arrangements can be made without involving us in the expenditure of gold or dollars and I believe that is possible to negotiate. In our view a system can be worked out bilaterally with different countries which will enable a start to be made in the early summer. We hope to be able to publish in March a list of countries to which travel will be possible, and travel would then resume about 1st May. We are anxious to create conditions in which the peoples of the
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respective countries can associate, and I know of nothing more important to serve this end than the tourist traffic.
I would like to make it clear that we are not doing this merely to cater for people with lots of money. Adults will be allowed £35 and children £25 per annum. In this connection there are a number of organisations which provide cheap holidays abroad. These organisations have handled thousands of people and have rendered a great service in this field. I myself helped to create the Workers' Travel Association out of almost nothing, and in the progress of years it has grown to handling the foreign travel of many thousands of people. There is also the Polytechnic and many other bodies of a similar kind. Therefore, foreign travel is no longer a privilege of the few. It is the desire of large numbers of people. We hope to allow this exchange to take place both ways at the earliest possible moment.
Perhaps I may now return to the subject of the organisation in respect of a Western Union. That is its right description. I would emphasise that I am not concerned only with Europe as a geographical conception. Europe has extended its influence throughout the world, and we have to look further afield. In the first place, we turn our eyes to Africa, where great responsibilities are shared by us with South Africa, France, Belgium and Portugal, and equally to all overseas territories, especially of South-East Asia, with which the Dutch are closely concerned. The organisation of Western Europe must be economically supported. That involves the closest possible collaboration with the Commonwealth and with overseas territories, not only British but French, Dutch, Belgian and Portuguese.
These overseas territories are large primary producers, and their standard of life is evolving rapidly and is capable of great development. They have raw materials, food and resources which can be turned to very great common advantage, both to the people of the territories themselves, to Europe, and to the world as a whole. The other two great world Powers, the United States and Soviet Russia, have tremendous resources. There is no need of conflict with them in this matter at all. If Western Europe is to achieve its balance of payments and to vet a world equilibrium, it is essential that

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those resources should be developed and made available, and the exchange between them carried out in a correct and proper manner. There is no conflict between the social and economic development of those overseas territories to the advantage of their people, and their development as a source of supplies for Western Europe, as a contributor, as I have indicated, so essential to the balance of payments.
What is to be the best method of dealing with this matter? We have been considering and planning for the territories for which we are responsible so as to establish particularly out of our capital production year by year, and also out of our production of consumption goods, a proper proportion in the right order of priorities to assist this development. Coincident with that planning, welfare and cultural development are being pushed ahead with great speed. Therefore, if we get the plan, we intend to develop the economic co-operation between Western European countries step by step, to develop the resources of the territories with which we are associated, to build them up a system of priorities which will produce the quickest, most effective and most lasting results for the whole world. We hope that other countries with dependent territories will do the same in association with us.
We shall thus bring together resources, manpower, organisation and opportunity for millions of people. I would like to depict what it really involves in terms of population whose standard of life can be lifted. We are bringing together these tremendous resources which stretch through Europe, the Middle East and Africa, to the Far East. In no case would it be an exclusive effort. It would be done with the object of making the whole world richer and safer. We believe there is an opportunity, and that when it is studied there will be a willingness on the part of our friends in the Commonwealth to co-operate with us in this great effort.
In the Middle East we have pursued a similar policy. We have a long standing friendship with the Arabs. The development of the Arab countries in the 30 years of their revived national independence has been remarkable, and our own country has made a very good contribution towards it. We shall continue
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these efforts, to build up a system of cooperation in the economic and social fields which will carry with it responsibility for mutual defence on both sides. I have repeatedly said to representatives of the United States and of the Soviet Union that the Middle East is a vital factor in world peace. In addition, it is a life-line for the British Commonwealth. That statement has never been challenged. I think it is accepted by all. It is in that spirit that we have worked.
I think the House welcomes with me the recent Treaty with Iraq, negotiated and signed upon a basis of equality. There has been a lot of excitement in the morning papers about the reactions to the Treaty. There must have been some misunderstanding in Bagdad, but the Iraqi delegates should be able to remove it upon their return. The Iraqi Prime Minister, in a statement issued this morning, has said that that is his confident belief. Hon. Members may not have seen the statement so I will, with the permission of the House, read it. It is as follows:
"During our temporary absence some destructive elements in the country, whose number is fortunately limited, exploited some innocent students and succeeded in creating disorders. On our return to Iraq we shall explain the intentions of the new Treaty to the Parliament and people of Iraq. We are confident that it will be found that the national aspirations of the country are fully realised in this Treaty and that the overwhelming majority of the country will support it. It is with this belief that my colleagues and myself signed this Treaty."
Neither I nor the Iraqi Prime Minister would have set our signatures to any document which ignored the aspirations of the people of Iraq. We assure our Iraqi friends that we intend to face the problems common to us, whether they are problems of defence or of social and economic development. I hope that the Treaty, which has been worked out with such care, will serve as a model, when it has been carefully studied, for other Middle East defence arrangements. I am discussing the situation first with Transjordan, whose Prime Minister is coming here to talk with us in a few days. The Emir Feisal will be here at the beginning of next month, and we shall have a talk with him, and through him with our good friend, his father, King Ibn Saud. I hope that other such talks will follow. I ought to say a word about Egypt, where a different set of historical conditions has to be taken into account. I want to get

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away from the atmosphere of past disagreements and to concentrate upon what is mutually acceptable in the interests of both countries. I am not without hope of being able to do so at an early date, but it may take some little time.
Now I turn to the United Nations. All the steps I have mentioned, in the Middle East and in the Western Union, are in keeping with the Charter of the United Nations. When the ideological quarrel between the Powers is set aside—and it will be, sooner or later—and provided that the will to peace takes its place, all the things of which I have spoken will fit into a world pattern. They are all designed upon a regional basis to fit in with the Charter of the United Nations. It will be remembered that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State attended the General Assembly of the United Nations in New York. He will deal with matters relating thereto in his speech. He will deal also with any information that hon. Members may want.
I have to confess that the United Nations up to now has been disappointing, but it might have been so under any circumstances, and it may be better to have the disappointments at the beginning than to have the enthusiasm at the start and the disappointments later on. In any case, I do not despair. There is an enormous amount of work being done in the United Nations—economic, social, cultural and so on—all of which is leading to world understanding. At the same time, the nations have collaborated in many fields, and they have collaborated a good deal in the settlement of disputes—none of them major disputes, as we understand them—and even in the Security Council itself there have been some very good discussions and good decisions taken.
It has achievements as well as failures, but it is handicapped by this ideological thing that is constantly coming up, and the extensive use of the Veto which was never contemplated, I am quite sure, by anyone who took part in its creation. There have been commissions in Greece and Korea. The tasks are hard. There is one going to India and Pakistan now, and I wish them well. At last the one in Indonesia seems at least to have created a truce which may lead to a settlement and I express the hope that, notwithstand-
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ing our disappointments at the beginning, the whole country will remain behind it because we have to have some world organisation in any case. We must try to make it work if we can.
Now I want to say a word about the United States, which seems to be a sort of bogy in the minds of a good many people. Everybody has the idea that the United States has a great fund of dollars which it is trying to hurl at everybody for some ulterior motive. All I can say is that if anybody follows the hearings in Congress to try to get these appropriations, I do not think they bear that interpretation. They are a democratic country trying to look where they are going, and what responsibilities they are undertaking. Our primary task, as I have said, is to build up with our friends in Western Europe. We have to get resources together and repair a war damaged continent, and we have to carry out the development of these new resources overseas. The United States and the countries of Latin America are clearly as much a part of our common Western civilisation as are the nations of the British Commonwealth. The power and resources of the United States—indeed, I would say the power and resources of all the countries on the continent of America—will be needed if we are to create a solid, stable and healthy world.
When I speak of the United States, I am not thinking of the country misrepresented in propaganda as a sort of Shylock of Wall Street, but a young, vigorous, democratic people. It is a country not only of great wealth and great resources but one whose people are moved by a good will and a generosity which many of us in the Old World are apt to take for granted. American policy, like the policy of all great countries, must have regard to American interests, but it has been so often traduced as purely selfish that I think it is time to pay a tribute to the great heart of the American people which found expression in the European Recovery Programme. I was quite convinced, and I am now, that there was no political motive behind the Marshall offer other than the valuable human motive of helping Europe to help herself, and so restore the economic and political health of this world. That is, of course, an American interest; but it is everybody's interest, it is not exclusively American.

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This does not make the offer less unselfish.
If we take the sequence of events in the United States from Lend-Lease it the war—and I cannot let it go by though I have mentioned it before—I think it is worth calling the attention of the House again to the tremendous work in connection with U.N.R.R.A. What sort of Europe we should have had without U.N.R.R.A., I really do not know; it is too horrible to contemplate. I think it would have been swept by epidemics. Everybody had a share of U.N.R.R.A., including Soviet Russia and the Eastern States—everybody—and that cost the United States £675 million, Canada £35 million, and it cost this country, even in our impoverished condition, £155 million. It was an event which stemmed horrible disease such as we had following the 1914–18 war, which most have forgotten. Therefore, the European Recovery Programme is a natural sequence in order to try to help to rebuild.
It is true that the Americans are as realistic as we are. They see the greatest dangers to world peace in economic chaos and starvation. It was the argument used over and over again that we made a mistake with Germany in leaving her in such depression that it allowed a Hitler to arise. The instinct is that it is much better to spend money now on rebuilding a healthy and self-reliant Europe than to wait for the devils of poverty and disease to create again conditions making for war and dictatorship. It is sound sense, and His Majesty's Government welcome it. Neither can I see anything wrong in America insisting that the nations of Europe should do everything in their power to put their house in order as a condition of American aid. If we are to look for hidden political motives, then I detect them much more clearly behind the attempt to sabotage the Paris Conference than behind the great Marshall offer. I am afraid I am wearying the House, but it is a very long subject. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
May I turn as quickly as possible to Germany and German organisation, where we and America are in partnership? In this connection I would like to call the attention of the House to the conflict over the political organisation of
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Germany, which is bound up with the zonal problem. We stand for a united Germany, not a dismembered or divided Germany. We have been in favour of a centralised German Government but not an over-centralised German Government which in our view could be a danger to peace. In this I believe the Americans, the French and ourselves, despite slight differences between us, can reconcile our views. On the other hand, the Soviet Government are pressing for an over-centralised Government which we know could be used in the same way to develop a one-party dictatorship as has been done in the Eastern European countries, and we cannot agree to it.
It became clear a year ago that Germany was to be made, as a result of the series of disagreements between the Great Powers, a terrific financial liability on the United States and ourselves. No food was to come from the East into the West, no exchange, and hence the burden would fall upon our exchequers. I indicated that we had to make it pay by hook or by crook. We really had to make our zone go, and take the liability off the taxpayer here. Then the Americans offered fusion of the two zones in 1946, and negotiations for the first fusion agreement then took place in New York.
After the failure of the Moscow Conference, I was pressed very hard to agree to some kind of parliamentary instrument in the bizonal area. I opposed it then because I felt that, if that step was taken, it would mean probably the creation of the final division of Germany and of Europe. We therefore kept our arrangements to the economic field. While it is not bound to succeed, we have tried to make this fusion work, and work better, by setting up an Economic Council. We are still hopeful in Germany, and I hope I shall not be told I am too patient—because I am not waiting. We are going on with the work. By taking the right lines in our bizonal organisation in Germany, I believe that in the end we shall achieve a proper organisation of Central Europe. We have first to get the organisation on our own side efficient.
Later in 1947 we proceeded with a new fusion agreement. Now, as a result of talks between the American Military Governor, and our Military Governor we have improved, expanded and extended

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the Economic Council as an interim basis. But that is an interim matter, and in a few weeks' time it is intended that the British, French and Americans shall have an exchange of views on the three zones, as well as the two. Those talks will take place at a very early date. What we have done up to now is an interim arrangement.
Another big problem for Germany, which we are still trying to deal with on a Four-Power basis, is currency reform, which is absolutely imperative, but very difficult to arrange. We are not going to assume that the Four-Power arrangement is ended at all. We are going to make our three zones work economically in order to take the load off our Exchequer here. But we will go on to try to see whether in the end we can make it work. The Germans have a part to play in this. After all, the Germans are more responsible than anyone else in the world for the mess the world is in, and if they are to win the respect of the world again and come back into the comity of nations, they must work hard and act and administer their decisions; it cannot be given to them.
I had a sense of disgust when I read of German farmers holding back food from their own kith and kin, and I can assure the House that the most resolute steps will be taken to put an end to that. But we would like the German administration, to whom we have handed powers, to do it, because it is important, if confidence is to be established, to see that that is done. General Clay and General Robertson are to be congratulated on the work carried on in the two zones. When the Frankfurt Agreement is completed, I will circulate it to Members of the House, so that they can see it in its detail, and I will not weary the House with it now.
I must also say that in working for this German recovery we have to bear in mind all the time the countries which had suffered from her attack, rather than to put German recovery ahead of the recovery of those who were her victims, and that we shall continue to do. We are making trade agreements between Western Germany and Eastern Europe. All kinds of steps are being taken to develop the export trade, and to put Germany back on her feet. But I must say once again that if the German people are going to rely on us, or act as if we are to feed
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them all the time, they are suffering from a delusion. Germany must work and produce, like other countries.
Mr. Pickthorn: Would the right hon. Gentleman permit me. I am sorry to interrupt. I am not sure, but I think he inadvertently said "Eastern Europe" instead of "Western Europe."
Mr. Bevin: I said trade agreements have been made between Western Germany and Eastern Europe. There have been agreements made with Poland, and we are going on with that policy, which we think a right one to follow. We are doing nothing to break down the contacts, in spite of all the political difficulties. Time will not permit me to go into all the difficulties associated with Germany, and I must leave it to my colleagues, who will speak later.
We have persistently endeavoured to make a Treaty for Austria. I cannot understand why a great nation of 200 million people like Soviet Russia should find it necessary to delay a settlement with a small country of seven millions. Whatever the causes may be, I think this torturing of Austria for all these years is really reprehensible. However, at the end of the conference there was a sign that there was a possibility of a settlement. I seized it at once, and referred it to the Deputies and I have been promised a new Soviet proposal in January. I hope they will do it, and let us have a chance of settling that problem.
One other matter I must mention in passing is Japan. There is a conflict again, because it is desired by the Soviet that we should refer the Peace Treaty to the Council of Foreign Ministers; not a very encouraging prospect. Really, it is very difficult to agree to it. Here are Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, Burma and the Netherlands, who were all in the Japanese War from the very day of Pearl Harbour, and while I am ready to admit that the maintenance of great Russian armies in the Maritime Provinces probably had an effect before they came into the war, the actual time that Russia was in the Japanese War was but a few days. Yet I am asked to agree that they should take a predominant position over the Allies who fought in the Japanese War all the way through. Really, we cannot expect people to accept that. What we propose is that the 13 or 14 countries

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which were involved should form the Peace Conference. In that way I think we are more likely to clear up the Far Eastern position, and I hope the Soviet Government will see their way clear to accept that, and let us get on with the business of, at least, making one good peace treaty. That, of course, includes the United States, Canada and other countries.
Burma has already been debated in the House, and our relations with Burma now become the responsibility of the Foreign Office. We are looking after their interests as well as those of the other Far Eastern countries by means of the system which has been developed there.
The Foreign Office staffs often get criticised, and we are always supposed to select the wrong people, but I do not want to let this occasion pass without paying a tribute to the staffs of that great office. Since the war the work has been terrific. Recently, to give an example, with the breakdown of convertibility, practically every agreement that we have made had to be changed before the ink was dry. Otherwise, there would have been no food and no exchange. I think the other Departments of State will agree that the magnificent way the ambassadors and their staffs worked to prevent any serious disturbance, either in trade or exchange, as a result of that difficulty, entitles them to the praise I am giving. They had a very difficult task, and I am quite certain they will continue to serve with success. They certainly deserve great credit.
To conclude, His Majesty's Government have striven for the closer consolidation and economic development, and eventually for the spiritual unity, of Europe as a whole; but, as I have said, in Eastern Europe we are presented with a fait accompli. No one there is free to speak or think or to enter into trade or other arrangements of his own free will. The sovereignty of the Eastern European nations is handicapped. What of the West? Neither we, the United States nor France is going to approach Western Europe on that basis. It is not in keeping with the spirit of Western civilisation, and if we are to have an organism in the West it must be a spiritual union. While, no doubt, there must be treaties or, at least, understandings, the union must primarily be a fusion derived from the
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basic freedoms and ethical principles for which we all stand. It must be on terms of equality and it must contain all the elements of freedom for which we all stand. That is the goal we are now trying to reach. It cannot be written down in a rigid thesis or in a directive. It is more of a brotherhood and less of a rigid system.
In spite of criticism levelled at her, Europe has done an amazing job since the end of the war. One has to be conversant with it to understand just what it has been like, with all the economic confusion that was involved everywhere. The countries of Europe are returning now to established law and order. There had never been a war like this before. Never has it been so difficult to make peace. It is not a question of sitting down together, as it was at Versailles, and then at the end signing a treaty. This time it is systems, conceptions and ideologies which are in conflict. I do not want to take an irrevocable step which will make future generations pay, just because I was over-anxious to gain a settlement for settlement's sake. This time it has to be a real settlement which lasts for a long time.
In this new settlement Germany, like all other European nations, must find her place, but, as I have said, she must not come before her recent victims. As other nations settle down, Germany can settle down, but she must be prevented from becoming aggressive again. We shall welcome her return as a democratic nation. In all our efforts that is the objective for which we have been working, but I must repeat to the Germans that although I am not blaming the whole German people, they were the great factor which brought the world to this condition. They must realise that, as a people, they have got to work hard to get their own country and the world back to a proper equilibrium. I have been glad to note the growing realisation of this fact among the Germans themselves.
Despite all the artificial barriers set up, and the propaganda blared out, which no doubt will increase after this Debate, we shall pursue a course which will seek to re-unite Europe. If the present division of Europe continues, it will be by the act and the will of the Soviet Government, but such a division would be inconsistent with the statements of the highest Soviet authorities and of Stalin

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himself. He told Mr. Stassen in Moscow last April that "for collaboration it is not requisite that peoples should have an identical system." Similar statements have been made on other occasions. We have always tried, and we are still trying, to co-operate with the peoples of Eastern Europe on that basis, although the activities of the Cominform, like those of its predecessor the Comintern, afford—the greatest hindrance to mutual confidence and understanding.
However, we shall not be diverted, by threats, propaganda or fifth column methods, from our aim of uniting by trade, social, cultural and all other contacts those nations of Europe and of the world who are ready and able to cooperate. The speed of our recovery and the success of our achievements will be the answer to all attempts to divide the peoples of the world into hostile camps. I may claim for myself, at least, that my whole life has been devoted to uniting people and not dividing them. That remains my objective and purpose now. That is the object and purpose that His Majesty's Government, of which I am the instrument, seek to promote in dealing with other countries.
5.6 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Nutting: Once again on an extremely sombre occasion the Foreign Secretary has made a very important and lengthy speech. If I find difficulty in commenting on the whole of his speech, perhaps I may attribute that to the fact that I did not know I was to be called at this moment. I have been engaged outside the Chamber in collecting my thoughts for what I thought would be a later speech. However, I heard most of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, and I find it extremely difficult to comment upon it. He showed a very genuine and proper realisation, as one would expect of him, of the menace to the world today of Communism and of the need, upon which he laid great stress, to avoid the domination of Europe by one Power, which indeed, if I understand British history correctly, has been the aim of successive British governments for many years. He complained very bitterly and with great justification of the policy, propaganda and activities of the Soviet Government and of the Communist Party in Eastern and now in Western Europe.
I do not think however we can regard his speech as heralding any very great
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departure from the present policy of His Majesty's Government which, I D far as one can understand it, is to have no policy at all. The Foreign Secretary said, if I understood him correctly, that the time is now ripe to organise Western Europe. But how long has the time been ripe to organise Western Europe? I should have thought that the time was now over-ripe, and that if we are not very careful when we pluck the fruit, if the fruit is there at all, it will have gone very rotten indeed.
I would like to take up the Foreign Secretary on one point which, I thought, gravely undermined a great deal of the case which he made out for having been patient for all these months and having striven to secure a settlement on a Four-Power basis. He admitted in his speech that the total and final division of Europe began to show itself definitely and completely directly the Marshall Plan appeared upon the international scene, and directly M. Molotov and M. Stalin decided to sabotage and oppose that plan as hard as they could. If he recognised then that the division of Europe was definite and final, why have we dithered ever since? Why have we had no policy ever since?
Everyone wanted, at the end of the war, to give the United Nations a chance, to give Four-Power co-operation a chance, to give Potsdam a chance. Nobody wanted to take any step, at that moment, which might precipitate repercussions from Russia, which might precipitate a Russian "closed shop" in Eastern Europe. But I do suggest to the House that it has been for a very long time all too obvious that the Russians were out for their own ends, for an exclusive arrangement in Eastern Europe to the exclusion of the Western world. Directly that became obvious to us surely we should have stopped pursuing this mirage of Four-Power co-operation.
The right hon. Gentleman, with great patience and great tenacity, has persisted in the attempt to be a bridge between America and Russia or what is now known, in intellectual circles, as "The Third Force," but which some of my friends in France call "The Third Weakness." I have always understood that there were two functions of a bridge—one, to be blown up, and the other, to receive traffic. If we pursue this policy

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of the bridge very much longer we shall, if we are not very careful, find an extraordinary amount of very odd traffic crossing over us from America, on the one hand, and Russia on the other, and, in the end, we shall be blown up.
A typical example of this particular type of misconception is a letter in the "Daily Herald," which caught my eye in the train this morning, from six Members of the party opposite. In this letter they advocate that we should go ahead immediately with the creation of a united democratic Socialist Western Europe. I do not know what that means; but they believe that it will, of itself, make more intimate co-operation with Communist Eastern Europe considerably easier. Where they get that idea from I simply do not know. I should have thought that with all the trouble they have had recently with Communist infiltration in their unions, they would have realised, by now, that their greatest enemy in the world is Communism, and that the power, the force, the political party which hates them most is the Communist Party. How they think that a Socialist Western Europe will make things easier in the field of international co-operation with Communist Eastern Europe I do not know.
The answer is that all these ideas of the policy of the bridge, or of an independent foreign policy, as some prefer to call it, are based on a total misconception of history, of the modern world, and of our position in that world. Since we ceased pursuing a policy of isolation from Europe, directly we were menaced from Europe, we have never had an independent foreign policy. Our policy has always been based on some other Power. It was either Prussia or France. It has never been an independent foreign policy. As to applying these ideas today, the logical outcome is that we shall find ourselves having an economic war against America and, at the same time, a political war against Russia—and we shall lose them both.
The time is long overdue for the British Government to abandon this aimless drift; they should recognise that the "cold war," as the Americans call it, is on in earnest that the third world war has, in fact, begun. It is a horizontal division instead of a vertical and international division between the contestants, but,
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nevertheless, the third world war has already begun. If certain hon. Members opposite were still blind enough, after the emergence of the Cominform in Belgrade, not to recognise this truth, I should have thought that recent events in France, Italy, Greece, the Ruhr, and elsewhere would have brought it home to them by now.
We must line up the democratic forces of the world with ourselves and America. I realise that the Foreign Secretary is very loath to take any irrevocable step which, as he said, might land future generations in trouble and danger. Obviously he is, but if we are to go on refusing to take any step because it might be irrevocable, and might land future generations in trouble, we shall pursue the same policy of aimless drift, and do nothing to help ourselves, our neighbours, or the world. We must, I believe, form—and I use these words advisedly—a world alliance against the Communist forces in the world today. We must form that alliance forthwith with America, and abandon any ideas of being a bridge, or a "Third Force."
The only way in which we can get the Western European nations to come in on a policy of this kind is to lead them in. Surely we in this country, in Western Europe, are the only people who can give a lead to Western Europe today. The Americans cannot give it; if they tried to give it they would be accused of tying political strings to economic aid. The rest cannot; France and Belgium cannot. They have not the influence or political stability at home to do so. We are peculiarly fortunate in having the necessary political stability and unity in this country on foreign affairs. That unity could be behind the right hon. Gentleman if he took the necessary steps, but it will not be behind him if he does not.
Diplomacy is like military strategy. If there is no plan there is no initiative. If the initiative is lost the battle is lost. We have no plan at the moment except, as the right hon. Gentleman said, to start the tourist traffic going again. I know he once said that his foreign policy is to go to Victoria Station and buy a ticket to anywhere without having to have a passport, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman had his tongue in his cheek a little bit when he said that; I hope that he had a little more idea than that as to how to organise Europe. But it appears that

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about the only thing we have to offer today, in the international field, is to start conversations with the Belgian, Netherlands, and Luxembourg Governments on trade, and restore the tourist traffic.
Unless we are careful we shall find that Stalin will succeed where Hitler failed, that he will succeed in a policy of "divide and conquer." He is particularly well placed to divide and conquer, because he has already a horizontal and political division between the Communist Party and other parties in nearly every country in the world. He is particularly well placed to follow up that policy, and make it win through. If we are not careful, and do not unite in our own defence we shall go down and lose that ideological struggle that is the third world war.
5.20 p.m.
Mr. G. Lang: With a good deal of what has been said by the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Nutting) I would be in agreement if he had not been so sweeping, and if, in one or two directions, he had been a little better founded. There is no question about the serious position in which we find ourselves, none at all, as the Foreign Secretary made perfectly plain. I agree with the hon. Member for Melton when he says that the third world war has already begun. I believe that is the case. In many ways we are witnessing and experiencing the same things that frustrated us and made us despair in 1937 and 1938. There is the infiltration, sometimes political infiltration, sometimes, one feels, almost if not quite at the point of weapons. Countries are being taken over and a solid front is being formed. Liberty is dying in front of our eyes. Religion is being overthrown and persecuted, and the time has come when some of us who feel and believe in these things must say perfectly plainly what we feel and believe and know is now true.
Mr. Zilliacus: When my hon. Friend says that religion is being overthrown, is it his contention that there is religious persecution in Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union? If so, I will tell him that he is misinformed. I would refer him to the testimony of the—
Hon. Members: Speech.
Mr. Lang: I gave way because I did not want my hon. Friend to think I was un
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willing to do so, but if I have to give way too far it will be impossible to make my speech in the short time in which I wish to make it. I hope that if I tread on the corns of other hon. Friends they will seek and obtain an opportunity to put their view before the House. I can only repeat what I have just said, because I believe it—that is that there is a definite persecution of the Christian religion, as in these circumstances there must be. Totalitarianism of any kind can only survive if it can overthrow certain things, and the Christian religion is one of those things, and it is being persecuted in Eastern Europe.
That is why some of us have for some time now advocated with all our modest powers the unification of Europe. It must not be said, and it would not be true to say that that has been directed against Russia. In fact, at the launching campaign the Leader of the Opposition himself said that the door was open. But while the door is open to Russia to come in, it is no longer possible to sit down and wait until she chooses to come in. If we do that we are lost and altogether undone. I do not even agree with some of my hon. Friends, whose sincerity in this matter is not in question, that we can afford to wait for a United Socialist States of Europe or, for that matter, a Conservative States of Europe. If we are only to talk to each other when we have the same political persuasion, we shall fail.
The thing to do is to come together on a fundamental belief in the liberty of the subject, in basic freedom and, as I think, in spiritual values. These are the things that unite us, and these other things need not divide us and will not long divide us if we come to a unity upon a broader basis. I am an unrepentant Socialist; I have been in the movement for well over 30 years, and am not likely now to change my mind. I believe that if Socialism itself were practised in those countries it would be a substantial guarantee of permanent peace, but I cannot afford to wait, and I do not intend to do so, until everyone sees eye to eye with me upon these matters.
The thing is to get together now while there is some liberty left, for that liberty is fast going from Europe. We have no right to stand by and see the agony of Europe, to see Europe being destroyed and say nothing, and I will not. So long as I live, I will not be silent when spiritual values and the Christian religion are

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attacked. There are many things for which I have been proud to fight and will be proud to fight. There are things for which I will give a great deal. There is only one thing for which I would die, that is the Christian religion. So long as I remain in public life, or am in any other way able to speak, so long will I defend it and press for its adoption in the world.
It is idle to pretend that there has been no persecution. One has evidence piled upon evidence. The Communist technique is a totalitarian technique. We ought to have learned enough about that by now. I am not casting any reflection on the great mass of the Russian people. One of the pathetic things is that there were more millions of Russian dead in the late war than those of any other country, and they died in the belief that they were fighting for freedom. I would be treacherous to those dead as well as to our own if I did not now demand that what was won at such a terrible price shall be maintained at whatever price and consequence.
That is not to declare war. I believe that war has already been begun. I do not believe that there is one hon. Friend of mine on this side of the House who would disagree with me that it is taking place. There is the same technique against which some of us protested when Germany was using it. What is the matter with us, after that experience and what we said about the people who appeased and appeased? Are we not now in danger of falling into the same error? Have we learned nothing from the pain and sacrifice and terror through which we have gone, and through which we are now going? Does that not count at all. Are we to sit here with comfortable ideologies, some of them very remote, while we know that our children and our children's children are in danger again of having to go to war in Europe?
Is it not better to go to Europe for conference rather than wait again until Europe is the vast abattoir of humanity that it has been twice in my lifetime? It must not occur again. It would be less likely to occur if we spoke plainly. There is nothing in the Soviet attitude which suggests that they will give way to weakness. Now is the time to speak strongly. We can afford to do so, and if we do not do it now, we shall have to do things
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worse than talking before very long. Surely this great assembly of ours, to which we are all so proud to belong, and which is the very fountain of freedom, will not let the massacre of freedom take place. We have a plan for peace. That is where I disagree with the hon. Member for Melton. I think that the very restraint of the Foreign Secretary revealed that he had a plan and therefore could afford to open the Debate in a restrained manner. Surely the cut and thrust of this Debate, which the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett), said was perhaps the most important foreign affairs Debate in this Parliament, and its development, will mean that before its close we shall have a statement in more clear and cogent terms than we had at the beginning from the Foreign Secretary.
I hope that Members in all parts of the House will be able to bring their pressure to bear, and make their contribution, and show the Government that it is now time to act. The time for mere hoping has long gone. I was hoping, and still hope, that from this House, from the Government Front Bench and from the Front Bench opposite, there will come a clarion call to the free peoples of the world, particularly to the free peoples of Europe, to come together while there is still time, while some of us are still free, while there is a public opinion left in some parts of Europe to which we can appeal. There is no public opinion in the Soviet Union to which we can appeal. There is no possibility of getting to the Russian people, one simply cannot do it. There are a few countries and a few only left with an ear to listen to reason and to whom we can appeal, and it is now or never. We must do it.
I am aware that many of my colleagues, some of them old colleagues, will not accept what I am saying. I am sorry, but I cannot help it. I have declared my position while there is time and the possibility of doing something. Why should I be silent while people as good and decent as ourselves are being dragooned and treated to a third degree as subtly brutal as anything the Germans practised? We know that is taking place. In the Lobbies we say to one another, "Communism is going too far," and "This business with Russia is getting serious." Here, in open Debate now, while we can be answered, is the time to

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speak to Russian leaders and to the world.
I suppose it is inevitable that after this speech somebody, perhaps many people, will say: "His desire is to link up with capitalist America as against the workers' movements in Russia and elsewhere." I have no defence to make for capitalist America at all. There are many things in America of which I am not particularly fond. But the American people are our brothers. I know nothing personally of Americans—I have not gone to America to earn dollars on a lecture tour and they do not know what they have missed. That gives me satisfaction which I can enjoy at home without the perils of travel or currency restrictions or the burden of Income Tax. I know nothing personally of America in that way, but I have seen America at work in Japan for two successive years, and I am bound to say that I have seen no evidence there at all that America is desirous of crushing democracy.
I am anxious that this should be a full Debate with all hon. Members taking part. It is only fair that when I have been allowed to express myself fully and frankly there should be the maximum opportunity for other hon. Members who may take another view. I have said what I believe, and I will continue to do so as long as I have breath to say it. I hope it will never be necessary again for some one to have to say, "You were warned and took no notice." This important Debate is at a time when the world is waiting for a lead if we will give it and we have the opportunity to give it. We may have to associate with people with whom politically we disagree. We had to do that in the war years and if we can come together during a war, why in the name of Heaven, cannot we come together to prevent it. There is no step I am not prepared to take in that way to preserve the dwindling freedom and keep alive the flickering flames that remain—and if possible kindle a few more—among the many people hoping and waiting in Eastern countries, who once were as free as I am, and who, if they could be here to speak, would say, "The day is not so far distant when our freedom will be gone.
5.33 p.m.
Mr. Eden: I think we all understood and valued the sincerity with which the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Lang) has just addressed the House. He has
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reminded us, if indeed we needed reminding, of the importance of the Debate in which we are now taking part, and I agree with him. Even in my recollection of Foreign Office Debates, which goes back longer than I sometimes care to remember, it would be hard to recall one where the significance of the views expressed and, above all, the significance of the national policy which I trust will emerge, could be greater than it should be in this discussion. For that reason I shall attempt to address myself to this problem so far as I can, in as constructive a spirit as possible.
I do regard the present international situation with a gravity which it is not easy to exaggerate. The Foreign Secretary will remember that just before Christmas, when we were about to adjourn, he asked us to postpone the holding of this Debate so as to give him and his colleagues an opportunity to consider the situation in the light of the breakdown of the Foreign Ministers' Conference and then propose a definite policy to this House. I know that the Government would agree that the House has shown great restraint in its demands for a Debate on foreign affairs. In fact, we have not had one for about six months, which certainly was not my experience when I was Foreign Secretary, and I do not think it is a matter of the merit of the respective holders of the office. At any rate we felt in the existing conditions that was a request with which, in the national interest, we ought to agree, and so the Debate has taken place today.
Let me say at the outset, on behalf of all my right hon. and hon. Friends on this side of the House, that we welcome the broad lines of the statement made by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. I have no doubt at all that in the circumstances which prevail in Europe today, the policy which he has outlined offers the best hope of restoring European political stability, and through that, of providing a basis for an enduring peace. I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman had to say about the proposed agreements with Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg, now generically described by a rather ugly, but no doubt expressive, word. I also welcome what he had to say about Italy. It is indeed desirable that we should do everything in our power to bring Italy back as an

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active member in the European family. As it seems to us, the proposals that the right hon. Gentleman described this afternoon are constructive. They menace no-one, and they do show, surely, in unmistakable terms, our determination to maintain our own way of life and to join with others like minded with us to give practical effect to our purpose.
The right hon. Gentleman said that what he was outlining today was the result of thought which had gone on long before and back into 1944. That is true, and I agree that what he said today was only a beginning. There are many spheres in which the conception of Western union can, I believe, be further developed. Our aim ought to be to create such a union not only in the political sphere, but in the economic sphere, and in the cultural sphere also. Therefore, I welcome the lead the right hon. Gentleman has given and I am glad he has given it in conjunction with France. If there is anybody in this House who still has doubts as to the urgent need for the initiative that the right hon. Gentleman has taken, and the importance of expanding that lead to other fields with the utmost vigour, I would like him to consider for a moment, not the survey which the right hon. Gentleman properly gave us of the postwar years, but simply what has been happening in some countries in these very few weeks since we last met.
We have got to admit—though I would not go as far in my language as the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde—that, unhappily, even in that space of time, the international situation has deteriorated. There is nothing to be gained by seeking to ignore that very unpleasant fact. It does not cease to be a fact if it is ignored. What happened from the moment the Four Power Conference broke down? The Soviet Government and their satellites in Eastern Europe intensified their efforts through the Comintern, the Cominform and by every other means. We have seen this happening in Greece, where the notorious Marcos tried to set up a so called "government." Does anyone think that took place without the approval of Marcos's norhern neighbours? Certainly it was warmly welcomed in the propaganda of Yugoslavia, Albania and Bulgaria, and even Moscow At the same time Marcos made a military offensive
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and tried to seize a small town in Greece, which he could claim would give him some pretext for recognition. The tactics employed in this Marcos business are a new development in the disruptive offensive which the Communists are pursuing. The fact is that in that particular sphere what has been called the "cold" war is "hotting up." I saw what I thought was a good description of the whole business given by the "Economist" the other day:
"Armed intervention by remote control and with limited liability to themselves."
I think that that about accurately describes it. Perhaps I may mention two impressions which I formed on a very brief visit to Greece the other day about the effect of these events. The first is that what has been done by the Marcos initiative has resulted in bringing to Greece a greater measure of unity than she has had at any time since Mussolini's act of aggression in the autumn of 1940. That was one result. The second result, I fear, is to inflict a great deal of suffering on a very large number of people, because in innumerable villages and small towns up and down the country the people have fled before the menace of these possible raids. I am told that there are now something like half a million people in Greece who are homeless as a result of this guerilla warfare and are making no contribution to their country's economic recovery and are unable to earn their daily bread.
I turn to France. I will not follow the right hon. Gentleman, because I might get into a similar controversy. I would only ask this: would anybody dispute that effort after effort has been made by the Communist Party in France to make the Parliamentary machine there completely unworkable—part, no doubt, of the general offensive against the free nations? M. Jouhaux has had a welcome measure of success and we are all glad of it, in the formation of his force ouvrière; but it unhappily remains true that the C.G.T. itself, which is still powerful, is now completely under the control of the Communist Party. In Italy the Communists, with the open connivance of Nenni and those who follow him, are intensifying their activities in advance of the April election. In this endeavour we know that they have received the reinforcement of Mr. Pollitt. Then in Roumania, the last appearance

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of the democratic regime has been swept away. All this has been further intensified in the few short weeks of our adjournment.
As to Austria, as everybody knows, and as the right hon. Gentleman had to tell the House agreement could not be reached on a treaty. To mitigate that, he and the American Government approached the Soviet Government to try to get them to mitigate to some extent the heavy burdens the Austrian Government were carrying and to try to give them some liberty of action so that they might be a Government in something more than name. All these attempts, as I understand it, have been rejected. As a consequence, further strains are being imposed daily on Austrian economy. I believe that the price of oil was doubled this morning. Every kind of new burden is imposed. Is it anything remarkable that in these conditions the Austrian Ministers themselves should find the situation almost intolerable? I have no doubt myself that it is deliberately being made intolerable.
Finally, we have the example of Germany and of Jacob Kaiser which the right hon. Gentleman gave. Over and above this—and I agree with the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde, because it is a factor which we cannot ignore—we have witnessed for months past a campaign of calumny and abuse of the Western democracies, their way of life and all they stand for, carried on by Press and by radio. Ministers themselves in this country, with others, have been the victims of this compaign. It may be true—personally, I think that it is true—that it is no part of the design of the authors of this propaganda that it should lead to hostilities. I think that that is so, but he must be an optimist indeed who considers that it is possible to continue for month after month in a Europe living as it is today, with its present distress and with its clouded and anxious future, with the use of that language continuing, without imperilling the very existence of peace itself. One cannot continually wage a war of nerves without eventually getting on somebody's nerves. That is the position which we are now approaching.
Therefore, I say to this House that there seem to be two immediate threats to peace, and they are very serious. One is the violence of the language used by this Communist propaganda everywhere, and the violence of Communist action in
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countries like Greece, at a time when Europe is still littered with kindling which it is so easy to set alight. The second is the risk that the Western democracies may fail to make a success of their own efforts to rebuild the prosperity of their countries with the aid of the Marshall Plan which in itself is surely one of the most generous acts in history.
There seems to be another aspect of the policy which the right hon. Gentleman announced today. I think it will be accepted in all parts of the House that it is the wish of all of us, if we can contrive it, to improve our relations with the Soviet Union. Certainly it has always been my earnest wish, and for many years past I have done what I could to give effect to it. If that be our wish, I am sure there is only one way in present conditions in which we can hope to do it. That is by showing that the free nations without the curtain possess both the means to restore their collective prosperity and the dynamic leadership to enable them to do so. Above all, the Kremlin are realistic. Once they have understood that our system is strong enough to withstand their propaganda barrage, or any other method of undermining, then I think that the right hon. Gentleman will find his task easier than it is now.
It is a little sad to reflect upon the extent to which political developments in our continent of Europe have failed to keep pace with the needs of the modern world. It is not only that nationalist feeling grows more intense, apparently with every year that passes, though I think that that is true, but also that national units themselves in Europe and the Middle East have tended to become smaller and smaller at the very time when development in other spheres would have led us to look for larger and looser political and economic associations.
There is no doubt at all, to my mind at any rate, that part of the great advantage which the United States enjoys today is because that great country is of a size to make the best use of all modern scientific and industrial development. Also it has got the essential unity which allows free play of thought and the free movement of goods over a wide area unhampered by tariff restrictions of any kind. In 1914 it was possible for any one of us, if we were old enough then, to go to any country in Europe, save two, without a passport or a formality

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of any kind. We could go to every country except to Tsarist Russia and to Turkey. But today, unfortunately, we must admit that, just at the time when scientific progress should have loosened these barriers, they are more rigid both to thought and to economic life than they were 40 years ago. There is something for us to reflect upon in all that.
I remember, and so does the right hon. Gentleman, the morning when my right hon. Friend the present Leader of the Opposition proposed to us in the Cabinet the offer which he made to France in 1940. My right hon. Friend is being a little bashful about that, but I remember that morning, and I thought today, as I was walking clown to this House—Is the international situation any less grave now than it was then? Quite true, the complexion is different. Then, it was an immediate military menace that confronted us. Now, both economically and politically, who can claim that Europe is much more peaceful than it was in 1940? Yet, we have failed, at a time like this, so far, to make that wider association between the free Western nations which the hour seems to call for, in the judgment of us all.
I tried to express in a sentence or two before Christmas what I thought ought to be our considered purpose, and I repeat it now. We want—and I think I speak for all my hon. Friends on this side of the House—the closest and most effective collaboration, economic, political and cultural, with all the free nations of Europe. That collaboration can take one of any number of forms. It can take, if we like—and some do—the form of a Customs union. Some people speak of a United Europe and others again speak of a union of the nations of Western Europe. In my judgment, each and all of these objectives can be reconciled, and each and all of them needs to be pursued with the greatest possible vigour under our leadership.
There are one or two questions I would like to ask the Minister of State who, I understand, is to reply to the Debate. I understand that, for some months past, the French and Italians have been discussing something in the nature of a customs union and have nearly reached agreement. Is that so, as I think it is? I have seen it reported that we have now joined in these conversations, and that
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would seem to me to be all to the good. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us a little about our commercial relations with Benelux? He spoke of political agreements, which I said we welcomed, but we would like to know whether any further action is being taken. None of us is unaware of the difficulties in a position of this sort. We have our own special position at the heart and centre of the British Commonwealth, and I refuse to believe that it is past the wit of man to devise ways and means, economic, political and cultural, whereby we and these free countries, which also control great overseas territories, may be brought closer together than they are at the present time. That is what we seek, and that is why I, personally, supported the Briand Memorandum as long ago as 1930. Never has the European need for a proposal such as this been greater than it is today. We hope that what the right hon. Gentleman has suggested today will lead by stages to a freer and fuller life for Europe.
Here I want to make a comment or two which I know will not be palatable to all hon. Members, though I must say it. It would, in my judgment, be absolutely wrong to try to bring about a closer integration of the free nations of Western Europe on the assumption that one political faith is going to prevail among them all. That, let me say, is most unlikely to happen; nor is it in any way necessary that it should happen. There has been talk—and this is what I am referring to—of a United Socialist States of Europe. In Western Europe, there are today many Governments—in free Western Europe—most of which are Coalitions, comprised of all parties except the Communist Party. In these Coalitions, the Socialists are, in most instances, not even the largest party. That may show a lack of discrimination on the part of the electors, in the view of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I am dealing only with the facts, and it is the position that obtains in France, in Holland and in Belgium. It is the position in Italy, of course, where until recently, on the most welcome accession of the adherence of Signor Saragat's minority group, there was no Socialist support for the Government at all. I could quote the further examples of Austria and Hungary, where, until the Smallholder's Party was destroyed by outside intervention, it was the largest party.

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What I am submitting—and particularly, to certain hon. Members who signed an interesting letter in the "Daily Herald" this morning—is that it would be impracticable, indeed fantastic, to attempt to build the unity of Western Europe solely on a basis of united Western European Socialism. That is not what we must look for. What we have to try to realise is something much wider than that, and I know that all hon. Members will agree. We need the help of all parties in all these countries, whether they are in the Government or not, who are supporters of the Marshall Plan. That help is imperative, and I say to the right hon. Gentleman, if he has such an illusion—and I do not suppose he has—that it is really not possible to do that on the basis of Socialism alone.
I want to make one or two reflections about Germany and to ask one or two questions. For quite a while past—and this is not a criticism; it is part of the legacy of agreements made—the Western Powers have been holding their hands in Germany in the hope of getting some measure of agreement between the four Powers. I fully understand the right hon. Gentleman's desire to achieve that, but for many months now we rust all have come to realise that it is not going to be possible to get that agreement, and that Soviet manoeuvres are really directed to try to delay those essential measures of reconstruction which the Western Powers themselves want to develop in Germany. I feel that to be true, and I think that what is so essential today is that every possible effort should be made to restore the economic life in the there Western zones of Germany, while maintaining the indispensable military safeguards.
What does that mean? It means, amongst other things, that the Ruhr should be given a real chance to live. There may be differences as to how to do this, but, personally, I have always felt sympathethic towards the conception of some form of enduring international regime for the Ruhr. As conditions are now, it must be obvious to everyone that the Soviet Government have now no claim to partake in such a scheme. They could not have, because of the manner in which they have failed to carry out the Potsdam Agreement and the extent to which they have flouted its express provision that Germany must be treated as an economic
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whole. All this deprives the Soviet Union of any claim to participate in an international administration concerning an area of Germany now out off from the rest of Germany.
I cannot believe that it would be impossible to bring our French friends along with us on a plan of this kind, or some similar plan. It is really indispensable, if we are going to do that, to treat the French as equal partners from the beginning in this matter of the dicussion on Germany. If we do not do that, we shall raise again all those old suspicions to which the French are so properly sensitive. I was sorry to note what apparently happened the other day, and I do not know who was responsible, or whether I have got the facts right. The new Robertson-Clay proposals, which radically altered the machinery of the Bizonal Economic Council, were apparently first announced in the Press, and the French, it seems, had heard nothing of them until that moment. The explanation that appeared afterwards was that the proposals were not final, and the suggestion that the Germans must be consulted first was hardly a form of explanation which was likely to reassure the French. It is just that sort of thing which we have to avoid in making this approach jointly with the French.
I now want to raise some fundamental administrative problems about Germany. We would like some more information, either today or tomorrow, about what is actually happening in the Ruhr. I read in "The Times" this morning, as no doubt, did many other hon. Members, the report of their Frankfurt Correspondent on the Frankfort regime. He has two very serious things to say. He says:
"Well-placed observers are convinced that, given the necessary confidence the output of many factories in Western Germany could be more than doubled overnight, even in the present condition of plants … For various reasons"—
this is the point to which I want to draw the right hon. Gentlemen's attention—
"notably the fear of dismantling for reparations and the complete lack of confidence in the Reichsmark"—
these he gives as the two chief reasons why there is a go-slow policy in these factories, and continues:
"In the opinion of the Allied Control Office in Frankfort, large stocks of vital materials are being withheld from the market."

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I hope that the Government will tell us later today whether they endorse this view, and whether, even with existing materials, the output could be doubled, because, if that is the position, then I think it is our duty, with our Western Allies, to seek to do something about it.
This afternoon the right hon. Gentleman told us that he was hoping to get currency agreement between the four Powers. Of course, that is desirable, but nobody knows better than he that previous experience of four-Power agreement has not been particularly encouraging. What is to happen if it cannot be got? I am sure the House will feel that we cannot permanently sit waiting for the fourth Power to agree to currency reform. Therefore, I hope the Government will be able to tell us that, while they will try to get this agreement, if they cannot, then the three Powers will go ahead in respect of their own zones with what seems to them the most practical proposal. This applies equally to the question of dismantling and reparations.
It is the action of the Soviet Government which has torn up the real validity of the Potsdam Agreement. That cannot be denied by anybody. The fundamental conception of Potsdam was that Germany should be treated as an economic whole. The Soviet Union has never made its contribution to the life of Germany as a whole. Therefore, they can have no complaint if we have to go ahead with whatever plans seem to us to be best. I am sure that is the course the Government ought to pursue.
The coal output figures seem very disturbing. I do not know whether they are due to the railway wagon position. I read somewhere that there is more coal at the pithead now, despite the poor output, than can, in fact, be moved. If that is so, cannot something be done to ease the wagon situation? We know that there is here a vicious circle. Strikes in France, for which there is some Communist responsibility, have resulted in the loss of two million tons of coal. Owing to that fact, the French are more anxious than ever to get more coal from Germany. If they get it, then the result will be that German industries will suffer, and, as a consequence, the whole German contribution to the Marshall Plan will suffer. The
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only way in which this matter can be settled is by the most complete and frank discussion between the three partners in Western Germany—ourselves, France, and the United States. I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that such a discussion was contemplated. I hope we can also be told that, while we shall still seek a measure of agreement with the fourth Power on the proposals, if necessary, and if that agreement is not forthcoming, we shall go ahead on our own.
Mr. Bevin: The right hon. Gentleman may take it that is so.
Mr. Eden: I have one other comment to make. I cannot conclude without some reference to the Peace Treaties which have been ratified by the former Balkan satellites of Germany since our last review of affairs in Eastern Europe. The violation of the human rights clauses of those treaties is, perhaps, the most tragic commentary of all on the decline of that good faith which is the essence of international agreements and international conduct. Petkov has been executed, Stanchev has been imprisoned for life, Kovaks has vanished, and Maniu is in solitary confinement. These are melancholy events which, surely, lay upon us the obligation not to ignore the practical issues that remain. Therefore, I ask the Government to tell us their view on the prospects of the fulfilment of the other clauses of the agreements—for example, of the Danube clauses. Are we to accept as abandoned the undertaking of the riparian States to observe the principle of free trade and navigation on this great artery of Europe?
Another important point about these treaties is the limitation of military forces. I raise this point especially in regard to Bulgaria because we were told before the Recess that the total number of forces under arms in Bulgaria is still far above that specified in the treaty. In view of the inflammatory character of Bulgarian propaganda against Greece, and in view of the fact that these large Bulgarian forces exist, though the Bulgarian frontier is supposed to be demilitarised by the terms of the treaty recently signed, I should have thought this was a matter which called for urgent investigation. I hope the Government will be able to give us some information about it.

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During the last few weeks, I have had the opportunity of visiting some of the countries of Southern Europe and also of the Middle East. Everywhere, I found the utmost good will towards this country. I endorse what the right hon. Gentleman has said about Bagdad, and I hope, with him, that wiser counsels will prevail. As one travels through those lands and talks to their political leaders, or to their individual citizens, one cannot but be impressed by the extent to which their lives, like ours, are shadowed by the ever-present menace of a darkening international situation.
The ordinary people there, like the ordinary people here, ask nothing more than to be allowed to take their part in rebuilding the national life of their countries, to be able to till the soil, to work in industry, and to bring up their children in some measure of confidence and security. That is all they want. In some countries I was amazed at what has already been done to repair the ravages of war. In others, great new plans of irrigation, and so forth, are going to bring increased prosperity to those countries. Yet, despite all that, there is the oppressive, brooding fear. If I was asked one question by almost everybody it was, "What are the chances of maintaining peace? What is the danger of war?" Every time that was the question put to me. That is the fear which, owing to the relations that at present exist between the great Powers, makes itself felt in the smallest villages in the most remote parts of ale world.
I will conclude, as I began, by saying that it is the earnest desire—and I hope that Moscow will believe it, because it is true—of every hon. Member of this House to bring about some improvement in the relations between this country and the Soviet Union. I am convinced that there is now only one way by which we can do it, and that is by showing that we can make our way of life work. It is only on the basis of our own unshakable strength and the prosperity of our own free system of: society that we can hope to enter upon a period of reasonable relations with the Kremlin. I do not, by any means, despair of that, but those relations will only be established in the world as it exists today by negotiating on a basis of strength. If we are strong we shall deserve success and command it; if we are weak, we shall suffer failure, and deserve it.
6.10 p.m.
Mr. Vernon Bartlett: I find myself so much in agreement with the speech of the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) that I do not propose to deal with the points in it. Like him I have been very deeply impressed by the gravity of the opening remarks of the Foreign Secretary. I must say these opening remarks revealed that we were faced by a very great and difficult problem, but I was disappointed by the lack of precision in the plans the Foreign Secretary put forward for dealing with this problem. It seems to me that there have been very good reasons indeed in the past why this Government should not have taken more drastic action. I have been more fortunate than some hon. Members of this House in that in a very humble capacity I have seen the Foreign Secretary at work, and from the early days of the meetings of the Security Council I have been greatly impressed, time after time, by his very great patience under acute provocation. I think the country should be very grateful to him for that patience, but I also feel that the time has now come when rapid and decisive action is necessary.
We have paid a heavy price in some ways for his patience. Members who have visited the British zone in Germany will know how our desire not to accept the fact that there are two Germanys has had the effect of diminishing the enthusiasm and energy of members of the British Control Commission because they did not know whether they were staying in Germany or what was going to be done with Germany. The result of that has undoubtedly been that throughout the British zone there has been a loss of respect among the Germans for the British and, what in the long run is very much more serious, a loss of respect among the Germans for the democratic system as a whole. That is the price we have paid.
Now we are faced by the obvious fact that the Allies are going their different, separate ways. It is a lamentable fact which everybody in this House will deplore, but we must face up to it. How can we make the best of it? I maintain that it is really quite useless in the long run to increase the fat ration in Germany or the size of the Economic Council in Frankfurt unless we are going to give the

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Germans something to hope for. Every decent German must desire national unity. It is not our fault that he cannot get it now. What can we give to Germany? We have got to build Germany up. But the very suggestion that we should build up a tri-zonal puppet State must be repugnant to every German; they do not want to be puppets and we do not want them to be puppets. How, then, are we to avoid the growth of a feeling in Germany which will be the danger of another war? I maintain that since we cannot have a united Germany at the present time we must do the only other thing which will give the ordinary German patriotic citizen some hope, and we must make him realise that Western Germany can be integrated in Western Europe.
Surely, it is quite clear that Western Europe will not recover unless it has access to the immense resources, technical skill and manpower of the Ruhr. Western Germany needs Western Europe, and Western Europe needs Western Germany. That is one of the principal reasons why the British Government should take much more drastic action than the Foreign Secretary outlined. I do not know what he is going to do, for he did not tell us in very great detail how he proposes to go ahead in Western Europe. How are we going to treat the other Western European States? Will he propose to the Benelux countries a treaty similar to our treaty with France? But that treaty, so far as I remember, was directed against Germany. These countries—Belgium, Holland and so on—want to know where they stand, so most of us will very much welcome the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that discussions would begin almost at once. The fact is that Germany will be lost to the world as a potentially useful part of it unless we get Western Europe organised very quickly, and that is a great argument in favour of drastic and quick action by the British Government.
There is another reason why we should take the initiative. I do not believe that any small unit in the modern world can pay its way. I would bet that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now much less worried about how to increase British production than about how to sell British products when they are made. That is a great problem and I do not see how
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it can be solved unless we really do things in a big way. All these other Western European countries have an equivalent worry. If the 16 States taking part in the Marshall Plan are going to behave as 16 different units, I do not believe Western Europe or civilisation will recover. I think if we are going to discuss how the Marshall Plan will work, as individuals, the Americans will inevitably want a higher premium for their insurance. The American conditions will naturally start off by being economic conditions but they will later become political ones, and there will then be a justification for those who want the Marshall Plan rejected for saying that we are selling our birthright for a bundle of dollar bills.
That is another reason why we should get Western Europe organised in preparation for the Marshall Plan and that we should do so rapidly. My right hon. Friend pointed out how very strong Western Europe would be if with its long traditions of modern democratic government, which is indeed a very great force in itself, we also have the advantage of the great Colonial resources of this country and of France, Belgium and Holland. That would mean that a United Western Europe would be very strong indeed—so strong that it would win the full respect of the Americans on the one side and the Russians on the other.
If I may digress, I would say one word about America. I cannot help noticing with some regret how those who in the past have accused the Americans of isolationism are now accusing them of being Imperialist. I am quite convinced in my own mind that the ordinary American wants to take on as few international obligations as possible, compatible with a feeling of security. The Marshall Plan, after all, is either one of the greatest examples of generosity in history or one of the greatest examples of foresight. In either case we, who may go down unless we get Marshall help, should assist America by making Western Europe strong with the least possible delay.
Mr. Martin: Will the hon. Member define what he means by Western Europe? Does he include Scandinavia?
Mr. Vernon Bartlett: I would include any country which agrees to come in on

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the basis of ordinary democratic government. I certainly hope that would include Scandinavia, for it would be a great loss to the world if it did not. We must co-operate with America in that way.
Then we come to the other side. I think the anxiety of many Members of this House about the effect of Western European union on Eastern Europe is very understandable and very genuine; but I also believe it is mistaken. It really is not fair to expect those Eastern European countries, that have been so backward in the past, to get through a sort of social revolution, through which this country has passed, without any intolerance and injustice. Of course, there are acts of injustice, which I deplore as much as any other Member of this House; but I do suggest we must keep a sense of proportion. Many Members would welcome a number of those social changes which are being made in those countries—land reform, and so on. A number of those social reforms are generations overdue. It is the way in which these things are done that—rightly—disgusts us; we rightly deplore some of the measures that accompany that social progress. But we cannot overthrow Communism by force—nobody, surely, is going to be such a fool as to talk about a preventive war? We cannot overthrow it by supporting reactionaries in countries on the other side of the iron curtain. The only way of helping the ordinary, moderate, decent citizens of those countries, is by making a success of the ordinary, moderate, democratic methods in the area where we still have influence, namely, Western Europe.
Let me end with one word of encouragement. It is natural, as we read our papers or listen to the radio day by day, and have to endure this spate of depressing news, that we should sometimes find it difficult to keep our sense of proportion. After all, history is a long series of struggles of the individual to get liberty and security. There are periods when the legitimate desires of citizens are crushed by tyranny; but that spark of divine discontent has never yet been crushed out. Was it to be expected that, after a war such as the last one, we should not have the economic disasters? Was it to be expected that we should get through these
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years without any extremism on either side? Of course, it was not. I maintain, however that sooner or later that spark of individualism, that desire of the individual to speak his own mind, comes to the surface again. It cannot be crushed out, even in countries where there is a 99 per cent. majority in favour of the Governments of those countries. Therefore, I believe it is important that this House, with its centuries of democratic traditions should—and we as Members of this House should—maintain as much calm in judging these things as possible.
Since I last had the honour to speak in this House I have been away, for nearly a year, going almost all the way round the world, and I cannot easily say how encouraged—tremendously encouraged—I have been to discover that, in all those countries, there are people looking to this country, and hoping that this country will come through its troubles, not because they love the British—nothing of the sort—but because they do realise that if Britain were to go down, there would then be an immeasurable loss to all, because of the traditions for which we have stood in the past. Now we have in this country in the last ten years achieved, to a very great extent, a social revolution. We have done it without the loss of any blood and with little loss of temper. I maintain that that is something about which the country should boast. It has its discomforts—revolution always has—but it has its enormous advantages and it has greatly impressed numbers of people everywhere who feel they would lose something if this country did not come through. We all remember how in 1940 the inspiring speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), then the Prime Minister, were whispered all the way through the resistance movements of Europe, and how they gave the people in those movements courage, and how we, in turn, were encouraged because we knew those people were looking to us. We should be encouraged by the thought that there is just as much desire in the world today for our victory as there was then.
6.26 p.m.
Mr. Zilliacus: The course of the Debate has shown how far we have come along the road we have been tread-

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ing for two years—the road towards a new balance of power, a new arms race, and preparations for a new world war, between an Anglo-American alliance on the one hand, dominated by Washington, and a combination of the States which have passed through a social revolution on the other hand, stretching from the middle of Europe to the Pacific Ocean—an area about three times the size of the United States of America, and including one third of China—soon two thirds—and comprising over 300 million people. I fear very much that the proposals that are being discussed tonight about the organisation of Western Europe on the basis of the Marshall Plan must be viewed as part and parcel of this wider policy, of this return to power politics.
I fully recognise the vital importance of our relations with the United States. I think one of the best things in this world is the fact that the relations between the English-speaking peoples have reached a level of civilisation where the idea of the possibility of war between them has simply dropped out of the picture. That is partly due to history, partly due to our kinship and the similarity of our institutions, and partly due also to our free democratic system. That free democratic system I profoundly believe, is not only superior to any other as a system of Government and a way of life, but is also superior as a medium of international intercourse for it enables opinion-forming discussion to take place across frontiers, and, even where there is disagreement on the official level, for discussion to proceed across the frontiers between the minorities who do agree with each other.
I do not underrate, either, the importance of close relations with our West European neighbours. In fact, I have, in speech and in writing, been advocating a West European federation ever since 1934; and it may be in the recollection of one or two hon. Members that, at the beginning of this Parliament, soon after the General Election, I advocated the extension of the offer, made by the Leader of the Opposition when he was Premier, to France in 1940, to all our West European neighbours.
I would now venture to make a constructive proposal, a small but practical proposal. It is this. Would the Government consider sponsoring, and making
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itself financially responsible for, an invitation by this House, if this House by free vote should decide to make it, to the Parliaments of the Scandinavian countries, Benelux and France to elect parliamentary delegations, groups of their Members, to meet with a similarly composed delegation from this Parliament to discuss our mutual relations, projects for the organisation of Western Europe, the dangers to world peace, and what we should do about them? These delegations should, of course, vary in size, and each delegate should have one vote. As a basis of discussion I would suggest 60 each for this country and France, 40 each for Holland and Belgium, say 30 for Sweden, and 20 each for Norway and Denmark. In that way I think we could get a real and thorough airing of these problems on a responsible, but nevertheless not official, level, and also help to educate public opinion, which is one of the greatest needs of the moment.
Nor do I underrate the generous impulse behind the Marshall Plan. No one who has visited the United States, as I did quite recently, can fail to be impressed by the intense desire of a very great many people in the United States to extend a helping hand to the peoples of Europe. There is much of that humane, generous and constructive impulse behind popular support for the Marshall Plan. On the practical plane, on the plane of enlightened self-interest, we certainly need any assistance we can get from the United States—and Western Europe needs it—just as much as the people of the United States would be benefited by the reconstruction of Europe. Therefore, it is no part of the point of view I propose to put before the House to suggest that we should reject the Marshall Plan, or refuse to co-operate with the United States and Western Europe.
What I fear is that all our attempts to make a success of the Marshall Plan, and to co-operate with Western Europe and the United States on terms which will help our reconstruction and consolidate peace, will prove a dangerous and disastrous failure unless those policies are accompanied by a wholly different attitude towards the Soviet Union and the countries of Eastern Europe, taking shape in agreements leading to full trade and friendly political relations. On paper, the official assurances with which the Marshall Plan has been presented to Congress are

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very reassuring; assurances of full recognition that the revival of Western Europe impossible without restoring trade with Eastern Europe; assurances that there will be no interference with national independence, and with the right of the European States receiving Marshall aid to order their social and economic affairs as they see fit. But if we look at the reality behind those official assurances, I am afraid difficulties begin to appear.
I will first refer to, although I do not propose to stress, the fact that the actual amount for which the European States asked has been reduced twice; first of all by Mr. Clayton, and then when being presented to Congress. It will almost certainly be whittled down still further by Congress. Even so, the sum left is very large, and means a very real sacrifice on the part of the American people. The question is whether it is possible, without an interference with American standards of living and social habits and organisation such as would be unthinkable except in an emergency of the magnitude of war, for the United States to produce enough help to make this scheme a success.
The second difficulty arises directly out of the character of the American economic system; that is, that the United States is still the only great community in the world which believes in uncontrolled private enterprise and where powerful private vested interests play a very big part, through lobbies in Washington, in the shaping and application of policy. There is no doubt but that the pressure of such interests is responsible for the perhaps somewhat excessive quantity of tobacco and dried eggs with which we are being blessed under the Plan, apparently without having really wanted them; and they are certainly responsible for the rather meagre amounts of machinery and steel, partly because there is no great desire on the part of American industrialists to start up competitors in business in Europe—a very natural preoccupation—and partly because the American steel barons have been playing down production for some time.
One theory as to why they have done that is because they are gambling on a coming slump, and do not want to stick out their necks too far. Whatever be the reason, the fact is, they are under-producing at the moment. Last August, the Federal Trade Commission denounced the American steel masters for practices in
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restraint of trade and price fixing; but, of course, they are used to taking that kind of thing in their stride. Then there is the restriction on shipbuilding, which is not altogether unconnected with the fact that a lot of American shipping is lying idle.
I now come to the question of non-interference in the internal affairs of the countries concerned. There is the system of the blocked accounts, that is, the fact that the sterling equivalent of materials we receive from the United States has to be paid into a blocked account, which can be drawn upon only for purposes approved of by the American agents of the Marshall Plan, who, of course, will apply their judgment as to what are sound economic purposes. I would refer also to the recent speech of Mr. John Snyder, the Secretary of the American Treasury, in which he said that America would insist upon her views as to balanced budgets, taxation and currency policies in the countries accepting American aid. There is a further indirect control. President Truman pointed out to Congress that it is voting this appropriation for 15 months only, at the end of which the whole thing has to start again and Congress has to approve a further appropriation; and, as President Truman told Congress, naturally approval will be conditional upon whether the Administration are satisfied, and whether Congress is satisfied, with the behaviour of the States which have received assistance in the first 15 months. All that adds up to a pretty comprehensive system of control over our economic and social policy.
However, that is by no means all, for I now come to the heart of the problem. I begin by expressing my utter astonishment at the statement of the Foreign Secretary that there was nothing whatever political about the Marshall Plan, and that it was purely a great-hearted, charitable effort by the American administration. Frankly, I did not know we had a Pollyanna at the head of the Foreign Office. The Foreign Secretary could not have read President Truman's message to Congress, in which he explained in some detail that, to use his own words, the Marshall Plan is
"a major segment of American foreign policy."
It must be applied in conformity with the objects of American foreign policy, and

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the State Department must have a large part in the system of supervision of how the Plan is administered and carried out. There is not much ambiguity or doubt about American foreign policy. As described by the Americans themselves, it is the defence of democracy and Western civilisation against Communism and the Soviet Union. I think a somewhat less tendentious description would be to say that it is a policy of containment and cold war against the forces of social change and social revolution in Asia and Europe, which are identified with Communism, which, in its turn, is identified with Soviet aggression and expansion.
The United States proposes to carry out this policy by using the threat of force, and ultimately the threat of war to back its views, its rights and interests against any challenge. It wishes to associate Great Britain and Western Europe closely as instruments of that policy, and as adjuncts of it. It is in fact, as the Leader of the Opposition has several times rightly declared, the Fulton policy that has been adopted by President Truman. The Leader of the Opposition claims both the Foreign Secretary and President Truman as his fellow-travellers in world affairs.
Let us take the relationship of the Marshall Plan to American foreign policy. Let us take, first, the question of full trade with Eastern Europe. It must be considered together with the fact that the United States have been deliberately cuting down their trade with the Soviet Union. In four months, they have cut it down from 30 million dollars to 3 million dollars per month, purely as part of their political cold war. The argument is that you must not sell to the Soviet Union any manufactures or machinery which might possibly be used to strengthen the Soviet Union for a coming war. Similarly, the United States have tried to use loans, or rather the withholding and withdrawal of loans, as an instrument of pressure on countries in Eastern Europe. They have cancelled loans which were on the fringe of being granted.
They have used their influence to prevent the International Bank of Reconstruction granting loans, for instance to Poland, when such a loan clearly came within the four corners of the Bank's competence, and when the scheme put
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up by the Poles was one of the most constructive in Europe—that is, for expanding their coal production. There has already been some comment in the American Press on the hypothetical danger that we might, after receiving aid under the Marshall Plan in the form of steel and machinery, controvert this American policy by ourselves exporting to Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union those very types of goods upon which the United States have laid an embargo. It is quite obvious that that situation may arise, and if so, there will be some pretty vigorous non-interference by the Americans to stop us sending the goods.
The French have already broken off their commercial negotiations with the Soviet Union. When I was in Paris recently, I found the opinion prevailing, even in leading Socialist circles, that it was perhaps a good thing to break off these negotiations as it might improve France's chances of getting aid from the Marshall Plan. That is the way the thing works. Acting Secretary of State Mr. Lovett made it clear that the resources under the Marshall Plan would be instantly stopped in the case of any European country where the Communist Party shared in the government. That means that in France and Italy the present regimes of the Right and Right Centre have to remain in power, whatever the French or Italian people may think, as a condition for receiving American aid. Mr. James Reston, the diplomatic correspondent of the "New York Times," reported from Washington to that paper, on 5th December, that there is already talk in the lobbies of Congress, and in the fastnesses of the State Department, of the necessity ultimately to back up American economic aid by military intervention, in order to keep the present regimes of France and Italy in power, because if economic intervention does not suffice to keep these regimes in power, more drastic measures may have to be adopted.
Vice-Admiral Taylor: Is it not a fact that the countries in Eastern Europe which have Communist Governments in power have had direct orders from Moscow not to take part in the Marshall Plan? Will the hon. Member say something about that?
Mr. Zilliacus: I could talk about a lot of subjects, but that is not one of the subjects with which I am dealing at the

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moment. So long as the Marshall Plan is dominated by this American foreign policy, there is little or no chance of getting the Scandinavian countries to come into this Western Europe group. When I was in Sweden last Spring, I met several leading members of the Social Democratic Government who were old friends of mine. They told me that whereas the Right would like Sweden to line up with a bloc of Western Powers pitted against the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, the Socialists were grimly determined to cling to neutrality and not allow themselves to be caught up in the Great Power rivalry. This is obviously a policy which makes it very difficult for them to come into the Western bloc, when it is based on a foreign policy such as that of the United States.
The view of American leaders has been made quite clear. Secretary for War James Forestal, in his recent speech, called for a Western European bloc tied up militarily with the United States, as well as through the Marshall Plan. Mr. Bernard Baruch, who is affectionately known as the wolf of Wall Street, also presses this proposal with great emphasis. That is why I say that because the Marshall Plan is part and parcel of the present American foreign policy, I fear that it will prove no solution to our economic difficulties, and may land us in the next American slump, unless the latter is forestalled by another world war.
This may be thought a somewhat harsh judgment of the American economic system. But, after all, it is President Truman himself who quite recently told Congress that unless they voted and adopted a scheme for the control of prices and rationing, nothing could stop a runaway inflation, which would have the gravest results. He denounced as "pitifully inadequate" the scheme put up by the Republican majority in Congress, and gave the warning that America was heading for an inflationary boom to be followed by a slump. The only thing I would add is that the city editor of "The Times," among others, has pointed out, that President Truman's own proposals are almost as make-believe and ineffective as those of Congress. That is because they were messed about rather thoroughly by the Secretary of Commerce, Mr. Averel Harriman, who himself belongs to big
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business. The President's Administration is studded with big business tycoons, where they are not military men. Therefore, there is no chance, as far as one can see, of inflation being checked, at least until its first results have become sufficiently alarming to change people's minds.
I would remind the House of what I said about the Marshall Plan on 6th August. I pointed out that American capitalism was literally incapable of delivering the goods, unless controls, price-fixing, and rationing were reintroduced. I said that there was no chance of that being done with the present set-up in Congress. Unfortunately, that is what is happening. This is really crucial, because we are tying our fortunes to an American economic system which promises no assurance of stability and prosperity over the next two years, that there will not be a slump before then. I hope that the report last November of a group of economists of the United Nations, who, surveying the world situation, predicted an American slump this year, does not prove to be correct.
The House may think that my judgment of American foreign policy is harsh. If so, I would refer hon. Members to a sympathetic account of it, which was given by one of the most intelligent and best informed of American newspaper publicists, Mr. Walter Lippman, in his book on American foreign policy entitled "The Cold War." He is no starry-eyed idealist, but a hard-boiled realist, who himself accepts the principle of containment and cold war, but objects to the way in which the Administration is trying to carry it out. What he says about United States foreign policy is that it is based on the Truman doctrine, which is derived from the views on foreign policy of one of Mr. Truman's leading experts, Mr. George F. Kennan, who is head of the policy planning department of the State Department. He is also the author of what I can only describe as the monstrous article in the quarterly "Foreign Affairs," by Mr. X. entitled "Sources of Soviet Conduct."
The whole thesis of that article, according to Mr. Lippman, was that American foreign policy is based on the theory that the Soviet regime is inaccessible to reason, cannot be dealt with by peaceful means, has no elements of and cannot evolve

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toward democracy, and will respond only to threats of force. He says, further, that they will not respond readily to threats of force, and the treatment must be continued for 10 to 15 years until, as a result of continued frustration, the Soviet regime will be modified or overthrown from within. That is where I came in. That is the state of mind which I found when I was, for my sins, pitched into intervening in Siberia in the first World War, and heard about the imminent demise of the Soviet regime.
This policy, to quote Mr. Lippman again, is carried out by:
"recruiting, subsidising and supporting a heterogeneous array of satellites, clients, dependants and puppets. The instrument of the policy of containment is, therefore, a coalition of disorganised, disunited, feeble or disorderly nations, tribes and factions round the perimeter of the Soviet Union."
That is exactly what is happening. The United States are supporting a feeble Fascist regime in China, a medimval tyranny in Persia, subsidising a military dictatorship in Turkey, and spending a lot of money on a Royalist Fascist dictatorship in Greece; and now Western Europe is coming into line for similar treatment.
Mr. M. Philips Price: Will my hon. Friend substantiate his statement that there is a military dictatorship in Turkey, when, in fact, there is an open Parliament there and free discussion?
Mr. Zilliacus: There may be open discussion but the Turkish regime is, I think, more accurately described as a military dictatorship than a democratic republic. My hon. Friend can have it whichever way he likes—[Laughter.] I do not think that the joke will be on me. Anyone who wants to believe that Turkey is a democratic republic can go right ahead and believe it, so far as I am concerned.
The most important point Mr. Lippman makes is that this policy is bound to end in failure. His reasons, I think, are convincing. They are rooted in the very character and structure of American Government and democracy, which cannot be geared for war in peacetime and cannot go on threatening countries over a long period of years without disrupting the internal life of the country and sickening its people. The policy is already failing.
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The Americans are being beaten in China. American policy is failing because the regime they are supporting is so corrupt and oppressive that the Chinese people do not want it and are not supporting it. It is failing in Turkey because the wily Turks are now threatening that, unless a lot more money is forthcoming, they are going to make it up with the Soviet Union. This policy in Greece is on the verge of collapse. Something like £300 million—one-third of the American loan to Britain—has been spent in Greece by U.N.R.R.A. and the British and American Governments together, and today there are five to ten times as many partisans in the hills as there were a year ago, and they are holding more territory than they possessed in 1943, when they were opposed by five German and seven Italian divisions.
The Athens correspondent of "The Times" on 12th January reported that the country is on the verge of an economic collapse and in the throes of runaway inflation. The Greek Army is showing no tremendous enthusiasm to fight. There have been about 250 soldiers shot for refusing to fight, a steady stream of courts-martial, and some thousands of soldiers are in concentration camps for refusing to fight. Unfortunately, the expedition of American Marines to the Eastern Mediterranean did not raise morale as intended, but had the opposite effect. The Greek Army must have seen some of the American films which end with "Here Come the Marines." But they thought that they were in the audience instead of being the heroine struggling with the "heavy," and they are relaxing now, and saying, "If the Americans are coming in to fight, why should we risk our lives. If we take it easy, Uncle Sam will come along and bail us out."
The danger of this policy is, of course, that it may be accompanied by a real danger of a world war. Here again, I quote Mr. Lippman:
"The United States must stake her security and world peace upon satellites, puppets, clients and agents about whom we can know very little. Frequently they will act for their own reasons and on their own judgment, presenting us with accomplished facts we did not intend and with crises for which we are unready. We shall have either to disown our puppets, which will be tantamount to appeasement, defeat and loss of face, or we

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must support them at an incalculable cost, on unintended, unforeseen and perhaps undesirable issues."
That is precisely the situation we are faced with in Greece today.
Vice-Admiral Taylor rose—
Mr. Zilliacus: Once is enough. The Americans are in a dilemma in Greece. They cannot draw back without losing face, and they do not see how they are to go forward without getting into very serious trouble. The appropriation of Congress of 150 million dollars will expire in June, and the American authorities are bothered as to what Congress will say when they ask for more money for the continuation of the same policy. They fear that a good many Congressmen will use the stock phrase that they are throwing money down a rathole. On the other hand, again, as Mr. Lippman has pointed out in a recent newspaper article, they cannot have direct military intervention on a limited liability basis. It is no good sending in one or two military divisions. It will be necessary to stake the whole military power of the United States behind those divisions. It may mean partial mobilisation. That is not a policy which the American people will tolerate. It would be very risky in election year.
That being so, the Administration have their own way out. They say, "Let George do it," or should I be in order if I said, "Let Ernie do it." There are still British troops in Greece. Why they are there is an interesting story. They are there because as former Secretary of State Mr. James Byrnes tells us in his book "Speaking Frankly," when the news came through that British troops were to be withdrawn, it caused alarm and despondency in the State Department; but he did not worry because he knew that he had only to speak to his friend the British Foreign Secretary and the troops would stay there. The troops are still there. They have been kept in Greece all this time to please the Americans. The Americans think, "why not use these troops," and that is why there is all this talk and fear of war in the air. That is why we have the somewhat startling fact reported in the "Daily Herald" on 21st January that
"the R.A.F. operational unit is after all to remain in Greece. A signal from the Commander-in-Chief, Middle East cancelling the plans for the departure came as a surprise just
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as the officers had assembled for a farewell pasty."
Why are these instructions cancelled? I should like to know why these boys have been kept in Greece and why our troops are still there. I should like the Government to give a categorical assurance that under no circumstances will they take any risk of war or sacrifice any British lives for the sake of American policy in Greece. That policy was undertaken without consulting this country. It was undertaken outside the framework of the United Nations. The Americans did it off their own bat, and the best thing that they could do would be to get out and take their Royalist, Fascist and quisling protégés with them.
The question that the Government, the country and the House have to face is whether we shall base our relations with the countries of Socialist reconstruction, totalling roughly 300 million people, with nearly the whole of the French, Italian and a large part of the German workers to boot, on the Charter or on a Balance of Power and an arms race. I do not believe that we can fight ideologies with weapons, but I believe that we as Socialists ourselves can find common ground with our fellow workers in Europe and Asia. We can, through full trade and friendly political relations create the kind of Europe and the kind of world in which there is secure peace and prosperity. It is only in that atmosphere and in those conditions that these revolutionary regimes—some of them in very backward countries which have never known democracy—can get rid of their harsh and ugly features. It is only in those conditions that democracy and freedom can develop out of these regimes.
Democracy cannot be imposed by atom bombs. Democracy can only grow in an atmosphere of friendship and security. That was what Petkov, about whom we have heard so much, said to me when I saw him last. "Tell your friends in England"—and I told the House this when I last spoke on foreign affairs" that if they really want to help us who are in opposition in Eastern Europe and if they really want to promote the cause of democracy and freedom in our countries, then the Western Powers should compose their quarrels with the Soviet Union and have a common policy with that country. That would be our salvation." [An HON. MEMBER: "Why was he killed?"] He

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was killed because, instead of a policy of concord between the great Powers, the United States announced their cold war and President Truman went into Greece, which sent a thrill of fear all through Eastern Europe. I put this to the Government—do they wish to base our policy with the Soviet Union on the Charter, or on Fulton? They must stop humbugging and make up their minds and take their stand either on an Anglo-American alliance run from Washington, or on the Charter, which says we must settle all our differences even with the U.S.S.R. by peaceful means, and must never use force in our dealings with that country. On that choice hangs the issue of peace or another world war.
7.3 p.m.
Mr. J. J. Lawson: I have heard several speeches by my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) in this House, and I have read several of his speeches. I am a political neighbour of his, a member of the same party and one who respects him very much. However, like my colleagues from the North, I have been very reluctant to take part in a Debate in which the differences would appear to be so pointed, but the time has arrived when this House and the world outside should be told that my hon. Friend does not speak for anything but an insignificant proportion of the voters of this country.
Earl Winterton: He speaks for Russia.
Mr. Lawson: It may be that he speaks for some others in the party, but he does not speak for the majority of his party, nor does he speak for the working classes of this country.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: How does the right hon. Gentleman know?
Mr. Lawson: I think I know what the working class think as well as any man in this House.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: They are not in favour of war with the Russians.
Mr. Lawson: As a matter of fact, now that the question has been put, I lived among the working classes when I worked in the pits.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman has forgotten it now.
Mr. Lawson: I live in the same kind of house, in the same kind of street and among the same kind of people as when I worked in the pit, so I ought to know what they say. There are evidences in the North of England that there is not only dissatisfaction, but something amounting to indignation because the views put by the hon. Member for Gateshead are being interpreted as being something which represents the opinion of the working class of Britain.
Mr. Zilliacus: I should like to point out to my right hon. Friend that I got a unanimous vote of confidence of my party.
Mr. Lawson: I knew my hon. Friend was going to put that point and he did get a vote of his divisional party
Mr. Zilliacus: It was unanimous.
Mr. Lawson: However, I would remind him that since that time a very important miners' lodge has expressed indignation publicly about his views, and passed a resolution.
I want to make quite clear the facts upon which the people base their views on Russia When this war ended I suppose none of the Allies was more popular than the Russians were with the great mass of our men, who saw them as very gallant allies. It is perhaps seldom if ever in the history of Europe that a war ended with such high hopes of a world united and of permanent peace as when the last war ended. What has happened? The right hon. Gentleman who represents the Government as Foreign Secretary has been patient and has laboured hard. He has suffered, as some of my hon. Friends have said, acute provocation, and yet he has kept his temper. Side by side, the Russian representative, for what reasons he may know best, has delayed and disrupted proceedings at different Conferences, while the Foreign Secretary of this country has patiently attempted to get some agreement. I venture to say that in the diplomatic world there has never been a man who has shown such patience as the Foreign Secretary. On the last oasion of the Foreign Ministers' conference the business was brought to an end by the Russian representative.
Mr. Gallacher: That is not true. Why make such a statement?
Mr. Lawson: So it was. What are our people saying? Right and left, this is what they are saying. They are not super-intellectual in splitting hairs, but they see and hear what is taking place, and they are asking, "What do the Russians want?" My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead has told us many things this evening, but he has not yet told us what they want.
Mr. Zilliacus: I will if the right hon. Gentleman likes.
Mr. Lawson: We should be very interested to hear it. The British worker and people do not understand what the Russians want, but what they do understand is that freedom is being killed in those States that border the Soviet Union.
Mr. Zilliacus: What freedom?
Mr. Lawson: They understand that, in those States, a Prime Minister can threaten with death those who oppose him.
I am very pleased to have heard the statement made by the Foreign Secretary on behalf of the Government. I am glad that the Government are going to do their very best to build up an organisation. I am pleased that my right hon. Friend said kindly words about the Americans. In spite of their criticism of us—and we have plenty of criticism from other quarters—and of their being a capitalist State—I never liked a capitalist State and have no reason to do so—they are a great people, who think in generous terms. At a difficult moment they came to us and helped us. It may be that if they had not done so we should not be sitting here today.
The Government can take it that the people from the two Northern counties are behind them in their policy, and wish them well. I not only wish, but pray that their policy may work towards the restoration and rebuilding of the faith which the peoples of the world have almost lost, in permanent peace.
7.12 p.m.
Mr. A. R. W. Low: I am sure that the House is grateful for the speech which has just been delivered by the right hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson). We are
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pleased to see him in good health and full of confidence and faith in the principles in which I am sure we both believe.
Let me deal first of all with the mischievous speech which was made just previously by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr Zilliacus). I do not wish to attach any more importance to the views which the hon. Member holds, and is known throughout the world to hold, than his right hon. Friend himself attached to them in his speech. The trouble is that the hon. Member and his Friends are very vociferous and they write a great deal. Many people in the world believe that they have a large following. The trouble is also that they have a following much greater than they would have if only the facts and the truth were fully understood. The reason why the hon. Member for Gateshead described the article in "Foreign Affairs" written by Mr. X, upon the "Sources of Soviet Conduct" as a monstrous article was that that article set out some truths—and the hon. Gentleman does not like truths.
In the course of his long speech the hon. Member put forward two reasonably positive proposals. One was that the Government should invite delegates from the Parliaments of a number of European countries: but what more would come out of such a meeting than out of the meetings which take place between the representatives at the Inter-Parliamentary Union I do not know. The second point—this was the only advice he gave to the Government—was that we should not merely try to appease Soviet Russia but should give in to them in every direction. The hon. Member objects strongly if we reply to Soviet Russia with any kind of action, or if we try to reach agreement with our Western friends and with the United States. We have to give in to everything which Russia demands and we must do nothing to resist the sustained and violent attacks she makes upon everything in which we believe.
That is the problem which faces this House today. As the Foreign Secretary said at the beginning of his speech, the policy of the Soviet Government is to get control of Eastern Europe and then of Western Europe. I think those were the words used by the right hon. Gentleman, and they are reason enough for the gravity which all Members who have

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spoken in this House attach to the existing situation. There are two slightly different problems in Europe, as the right hon. Gentleman put the matter to us. There is the problem of Eastern Europe where the spread of Communism has been in large measure successful, and there is the problem of Western Europe where the cold war is still going on and may yet intensify.
I want to deal with one particular country, Greece, which is neither a part of Eastern Europe nor strictly a part of Western Europe. It is most important, however, that nothing should go out from this House to suggest that when talking of Western Europe we do not include Greece and we wish to leave Greece isolated. I do not believe that it is our intention to do so, but the way in which the Foreign Secretary dealt with the problem of Eastern Europe and then went on to Western Europe might mislead our Greek friends. It might also mislead those enemies of Greece who are constantly working against us in the countries of Eastern Europe.
The problem in Greece is by no means a separate one from the main problem with which we are faced in Western Europe. The United States are quite rightly facing the Greek problem in exactly the same way as they now face the problem of Western Europe. By economic and other help we must make it possible for Greece, as for other countries of Western Europe, to live in freedom and in order and to live their
lives as they wish. That can only be done if the conditions of economic chaos in which Communism flourishes are removed as quickly as possible. The problem of Greece is closely related to that of Western Europe. I should like to concentrate the attention of the House for a few moments entirely upon Greece.
In his short survey of the trouble in Greece the hon. Member for Gateshead made no mention of the root cause there today, which is civil war. It is civil war and not American aid which has given rise to the terrible inflation. Inflation is not caused by another country's generosity in providing extra goods and loans. The inflation in Greece is intensified by the action of the guerillas under General Marcos, supported by others outside Greece, in upsetting the economy of that
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country. We heard in the speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) of the 500,000 Greek men, women and children who have been driven from their homes and are now wandering in Greece as refugees. Those people were not driven from their homes by American or British aid but by the guerillas of General Marcos. That half million represents one in every 14 persons in Greece, which is some measure of the difficulties directly caused by the guerilla activity. There are also indirect results in that the resources of the Greeks, increased as they may be by contributions from the United States, have had to be used far more than they should have had to be used on the Army and its equipment. When one adds up the strain on the economy of Greece caused by General Marcos and his guerillas one can very easily see what a false picture was given to the House by the hon. Member for Gateshead.
Though the United States are giving more economic aid to Greece than we can ever give in present circumstances, there is no reason at all why the British Government should not take the lead in the world's policy towards the present Greek situation. Greece may be an American interest—the peace of Greece and the rescue of Greece from the clutch of Communism is clearly recognised by the people of America as an American interest—but Greece is also a first ranking British interest and it is right and proper that the British Government should, if they think fit, be prepared to give a lead to the world in the policy towards the present problems of Greece. As I have tried to show, these problems are mainly caused—it would be an over-simplification to say entirely caused—by the action of the guerillas.
For some time past it has been hoped that the Greek forces themselves could deal with the problem unaided directly by other forces. I hope the Minister of State will tell the House how many troops we have there at present. I believe that they are very few and can make no great material difference though they may give moral support where moral support is badly needed. The purely military problem facing the Greek Army is that it has to rush from place to place to counter guerilla activity of whatever kind it may be—it may be just a small raid or a big raid like that which took place on Konitza

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on Christmas Eve. The Greek Army has to be all over Greece, and at the same time it ought to be trying to seal the northern frontier in order to prevent the arrival of material reinforcements—war supplies and so on—and trained men from Albania, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, of the transfer of which across the border there is ample evidence as the House surely knows.
It is apparent from all the reports which have reached me and which have appeared in the newspapers, that the Greek Army is incapable of doing both these tasks. Greece has never been able both to seal the frontier, and to counter guerilla activities inside Greece. They are two quite separate tasks and the Greek Army even if it is large enough, is not well enough trained to deal with the problem. If hon. Members think of the strain which is caused by guerilla activity, for instance, in Palestine on the vastly better trained and equipped Army of 100,000 men which we had there for a time, they will see the measure of the difficulties which the Greek Army faces. The Greek Army is supposed to be about 100,000 and is to be increased to 132,000, but it is not as well equipped or trained as our forces in Palestine, for instance, and we have seen the tremendous problems faced by a force even as big as that.
I have therefore come to the conclusion that if anything is to be done to stop the guerilla activities in Greece, Greece must have help from outside, As one of those who have always supported the United Nations, I should have liked to see an international military force or a detachment of it used to seal the northern frontier; but it does not exist. The problem is quite a simple one. If we are agreed that the northern frontier must be sealed and that the Greek Army is not able to seal it by itself, is the job then to go undone or is somebody else to do it? As I see it—it may be a slight stretching of the terms of the United Nations Charter—Greece is perfectly entitled to make agreements with the United States, us, France or any other country she may choose, under Article 51 of the Charter to lend her assistance against what is quite clearly an attack from the countries to the north of her—
Mr. Platts-Mills: I understood the hon. Gentleman to define the struggle in Greece as a civil war. I now understand he changes that and says that
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it is quite clearly an attack from outside. Does he now assert that it is not a civil war but a foreign invasion? If so, would he give some of the evidence which he says the House possesses, bearing in mind that the Greek Army failed to find a single prisoner from any foreign country although they have been pressed to try to do so?
Mr. Low: I understand that the recent Balkan Commission reported that it is undoubted that there is aid from Albania, and that is the report which has been sent to the United Nations Assembly. Two previous Balkan sub-commissions reported that there was aid in personnel training and in materials from Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. I said—the hon. Gentleman may not have been listening—that I might be stretching the terms of the Charter, but I am trying to find an answer to the problem. If the hon. Member is not trying to do so, we are not on the same terms and are not talking about the same thing.
Mr. Platts-Mills: My only fear was that the hon. Member was seeking to stretch the evidence, never mind about his stretching the Charter.
Mr. Low: I am not seeking to stretch the evidence which I understood to be quite clear and which is reinforced by the reports of the correspondents of newspapers of all nationalities who have been on the spot. That then is the situation. The hon. Gentleman has of course put his finger on the problem. It is a very difficult problem both in law and in international ethics, but if we are really doing what the Foreign Secretary said we were doing which is, in my own words, to resist the further spread of Communism over Europe, we must at least try to find an answer to this problem.
Having dealt with the facts as I see them, I will quote an extract from a speech by Mr. John Foster Dulles in New York on 17th January. He said:
"The known obstacle to peace is the con fident belief of the Soviet Communist Party that their weapons of propaganda, penetration and sabotage will prevail. That obstacle must be cleared away."
Later on he said:
"It must be proved that Soviet leaders cannot indefinitely expand their powers by trick devices of minority penetration and sabotage. Once it is apparent that such means fail, they will be abandoned."

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Then, as he said, the third phase of peacemaking may begin. Hon. Members opposite may be at variance with me and with hon. Members on this side about the means, but we are all agreed, surely, that we want to see what Mr. John Foster Dulles called the third phase of peacemaking begin. We want to get out of this phase, which may be said to have begun definitely when the Foreign Ministers' Conference broke down in London, into a phase where we may be able to trust Russian promises and Russian spokesmen. However, we cannot do that at present, and the problem now is, as was said earlier by my hon. and right hon. Friends, to make our part of the world work, and it is with that in mind that I have made my few observations about Greece.
I would emphasise to the Under-Secretary of State that I have searched every possible method I can think of to see how the Greek situation can be resolved in any way other than by some form of sealing the frontiers. It may horrify hon. Gentlemen and hon. Ladies opposite to think of the further use of British or any other troops in some other country, but in my opinion, if something like that is not done quickly, we shall have to expend far more resources in money, and possibly in blood, at a later stage to stop the spread of this evil of Communism. I put it to the Government with all the seriousness at my disposal that if they were to take the lead, invite the Greeks to consider the suggestion that an international force be given the responsibility of sealing the Northern frontier, very soon the guerilla activity in Greece would come to an end. That is the testimony not of any of my hon. Friends on this side of the House but of the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) who wrote to "The Times" to that effect earlier this month. When the guerilla activity in Greece has come to an end, that will remove one of the worst danger spots to the peace of Europe and to the peace of the world.
7.32 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: I have been wondering very much during the last hour whether the harmony which appeared to be present in this House during the opening stages of the Debate
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was genuine, and I had reason to doubt it when my right hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson)—whom we are all glad to see back in robust health again—spoke with great vigour and sincerity, but obviously did not command the complete agreement of all hon. Members in his own party. I asked for an extra hour for this Debate, Mr. Speaker, because we ought to be debating this question the whole of this week. This is the gravest hour in all the time I have been in the House of Commons, almost not excepting the grave Debates preceding the war. I was in a Government which was appeasing, and I have not happy memories of some aspects of those years, but I cannot help feeling that during these last few months the situation has been almost parallel.
Coming as I have not only from the Ruhr but from America—in other words I have seen both sides—I feel that the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) has not given a fair picture of what is happening in America. We know now that the days of wishful thinking are over and that we have to face hard facts. For instance, we know that increased coal production is about the best asset that the Foreign Secretary can have in negotiation, and therefore domestic policy and foreign policy cannot be separated as there was a tendency to separate them a year ago. When one comes to America, I do not think it is sufficiently realised that there has been a complete revolution of thought in America as well as in Eastern Europe. When I was in Iowa three months ago I met a group of farmers who had flown over to Europe to see the facts for themselves, and they came back and said that on commercial as well as on moral grounds, their business was to help and to help quickly. There is a complete change of opinion throughout the Middle West from that of prewar days.
I wish my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead was here because I want to ask him whether he realises that this is not a Wall Street policy, but that it is a Main Street policy. If he will speak to men in small shops, men in factories, men on the railways, as I have been doing right through the Middle West, he will find they also realise the effect of foreign policy on domestic life, and they will tell him that this means a sacrifice of their

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savings. It may be that it is endorsed by their Government, it may be that it is endorsed by men like Mr. Stimson, Mr. Baruch, Mr. Vandenberg, the President of Harvard, Mr. Rheinhold Niebuhr and the rest—names which have a European origin—men whose ancestors went from Europe to America, just as we gave in exchange Washington, Harvard, Tom Paine and Penn, to the United States. The other day, as "The Times" reported, Mr. Marshall said:
"I think I am on firm ground when I say that Europe in particular will be far better understood by the United States than the United States by Europe."
Of course, he was referring to the five million ex-Service men who have gone back to the States with memories of Europe. The picture I have given of these men with European names is symbolic of European reconstruction and also of what is absolutely vital now, the re-creation of Western civilisation.
I wonder how we think of America? America has 30 million Catholics, 8 million Methodists, a large company of Quakers, a universal system of public education with two and a half million college students, and they have something to give Europe besides food and money. When I wrote about this to "The Times" the other day, I was writing with the full backing not only of the presidents of the great State universities, but of those in America with whom I discussed the Marshall Plan, for in America at present there is a group of citizens, men of all parties and professions and creeds who are backing this great conception. My only criticism of the Government is that when the Foreign Secretary came to the more concrete part of his Western Europe plan, I felt he was too vague. Quite frankly, in that middle piece I could not follow him
through Africa and the Continents. I know it is not easy to be precise in a speech covering the whole world, but if we mean anything by a Western Union, there ought to have been a great deal more practical thought given to the details. Does the hon. Lady wish to say something?
Mrs. Leah Manning: I wanted to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he did not realise that the practical part of a Western European Union is that it should have access to the raw materials
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of Africa, and in that the right hon. Gentleman was precise.
Mr. Lindsay: I am glad that my hon. Friend followed the Foreign Secretary, but when the Minister of State winds up perhaps he will give us a little more practical detail about it, for I could not follow it, and I know that some of my hon. Friends could not do so. There is an enormous interchange between Europe and America. To give one simple example, there are at this moment 120 teachers in either country teaching in each other's schools. The larger American corporations were all lumped together by Vyshinski—Rockefeller and Carnegie, who have done untold good in Europe in the causes of health, science, education and peace. There is much more interest in these things in America, because, as one drives through the streets of New York, one can listen to Vyshinski on the wireless in the taxi cab, and people are not so out of touch with things as we are because the United Nations meetings are-held so far away from us.
It is my conviction that political plans and economic policies must ultimately be based on the acceptance of some common values and at present too little attention is paid to the humanism which distinguishes Western thought, whose spiritual home is Britain itself and which has not been called in aid for the Marshall Plan. Statesmen like Balfour, Asquith and General Smuts, great thinkers of Europe like Croce of Italy, Maritain of France and Whitehead in America—all these men shared the common hope that foreign policy would not be based merely on expediency and not even on immediate practical needs, but on what Smuts calls,
"Something enduring in the human spirit, and evolving structure of our international society."
I do not think he used those words idly. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Gateshead that it is our business in this country necessarily to support all the revolutionary movements in Europe. My experience of Europe at the present time is that it is in a very sad convalescent state. The physical wreckage is matched by the psychological disturbance, and there is a spread of such things as juvenile delinquency. One only has to go to the Ruhr to see what is happening, or Poland where 80 per cent. of the children are tubercular, while in Greece the conditions in the

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schools and among children are almost impossible. I am talking about the cities. Why I quarrel with my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead is because he seems to be glorying in the deep ideological differences. In some ways his speech was a cynical speech and aroused more mirth than thought at this moment in history as he discussed the European situation. Frankly, the European situation is not a subject which should arouse mirth. He ridiculed the United States but did not say one constructive thing.
Why is there such deep confusion in men's minds? Why cannot the United Nations Society in this country pay its way through lack of membership? Why is there such widespread scepticism throughout the student world, compared with 1922 when the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and many other Members of this House were students at Oxford and Robert Cecil and Nansen were rousing the conscience of the whole world? Was the situation so completely different? I think there are three main reasons, and unless we tackle the reasons we are only dealing with symptoms. To my-mind the Veto at Lake Success is a symptom of something very much deeper.
The first reason is the dictatorship in Europe has destroyed the sense of responsible liberty among millions of people and that has to be restored. The second is, as the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett) said, everyone is bewildered. They listen over the B.B.C. in one week to a series of calamitous things happening all over the world and the average person feels helpless to do anything about it. The third reason is the impact of the East and the Middle East. Gandhi in one day has done more for peace than the Security Council has done in two years, and that has made a good many people think. Ultimately, the problem is one of rebuilding a sense of responsible liberty, of trying to clarify the bewilderment of the ordinary citizen and enlarging his horizon so that he can see beyond the immediate neighbourhood.
I will quote a sentence which I have taken from the official instructions given to Soviet teachers. It is in a book by a friend of mine in America which is called, "I Want to be Like Stalin" and the author is George Counts, who for 20
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years has done everything he can to build a better relationship between his own country and the Soviet Union. This is the translation:
"The entire work of the school must be directed towards the education of the children inCommunist morality, a morally educated person being one who subordinates his own interests to the service of his motherland and people. Such service presupposes wrath and hatred towards the enemies of the motherland."
That explains in a flash the mentality in parts of Trieste, Berlin, and Vienna. I have seen people taken and put away in Vienna, Trieste and Berlin. That is possible because this is being instilled into the children. Professor Dewey the great progressive teacher in America says in commending this book:
"This book is the best key in existence to understanding why disagreement with any piece of Bolshevik policy makes the dissenting nation an enemy to be dealt with by measures dictated by wrath and hatred"
This has nothing to do with Socialism, Communism nor Karl Marx; it is naked nationalism. Because I believe that to be a fact, we have to proclaim from the house tops that this doctrine practised as it is over portions of the earth must be exposed and we must prevent any rebirth of intolerance in the Western nations or races. I do not believe from what I have seen that Western thought is extinct in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, or even Russia itself. Of course it is not. It is in that spirit that we ought to examine with much greater speed and objectivity how we can knit more closely together financial and economic ties. I was glad to hear the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington also mention cultural ties, because I believe they are basic to us now, and far too little discussion and thought have been given to them.
I am glad that the ban on travel has been lifted a little. Abolish the restrictions on books and give the ordinary citizen an active and vested interest in a policy of peace and reconstruction. I believe there are thousands of forces unseen and seen which are working for unity and co-operation in Europe. There have been the beginnings of a recovery, I would almost say an intellectual recovery. The Rector of Strasbourg, the Rector of Louvain and the Rector of Leyden have all been in concentration camps and have come back to their colleges and studies with a new vision of Europe. I am not

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talking about siding with reactionaries in Europe, but of siding with people who are trying to preserve some stability in order to reconstruct. I think that is more important at present than trying to side with what the hon. Member for Gateshead rather loosely calls "revolutionary forces."
It is in that spirit that I very strongly support the Foreign Secretary for his poise and patience and moral courage during these trying months. I am one of those who, although I sit on this side of the House, support go per cent. of the legislation passed by this Government. That is the measure of my independence. I hope hon. Members opposite who disagree with the Foreign Secretary are going to tell us what their differences are. I understand the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher). He is clear and consistent, but I cannot understand what the Foreign Secretary ought to have done—unless it is a question of degree on which we can all have little quarrels—during the last few years. If some of the hon. Members would tell us what the differences are, I believe this Debate will have been well worth while, and we can go out from it feeling a sense of essential unity and the world will feel it as well.
7.50 p.m.
Mr. Cocks: The atmosphere in which this Debate has been conducted tonight has been one of considerable gloom, and when one hears that a man so level-headed and equable in temperament as General Eisenhower is reported to have said recently that he could not guarantee that there would not be a war within 12 months, one must admit that that gloom is thoroughly justified. I agree with the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) that we have reached a critical point in the history of this country and of the world. The breakdown of the Conference of Foreign Ministers, the prolonged deadlock about Austria, the interminable and heated discussions at the Assembly of the United Nations and on the Security Council, show that the road we have been treading in the last two and a half years is bringing us perilously near to the abyss. In fact, we can almost feel the heat of the flames.
Surely, this is a moment when we ought to pause and reflect, when we
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should consider whether at some time in the last two and a half years we may not have taken the wrong turning, and, if so, whether even at this last moment it might not be possible to retrace our steps to that point and take another road which might not skirt the abyss instead of plunging us into it, and even follow it down to a point where we might bridge it and cross into security. If such a course is possible, I am sure everybody in this House will wish to follow it. It is surely our duty to consider whether such a course is possible.
Looking hack to 1945—only two and a half years ago—it is astounding to me, as it must be to everybody, to see how far we have moved from the conceptions which most of us have held in the past. The Government, for example, state that they still base their policy on the Charter of the United Nations. As the Conservative Party says that the foreign policy of the Labour Party is their policy also, I take it that their policy also is to support the Charter of the United Nations. But how very different is our present conception of the United Nations from what it was two and a half years ago. In 1945 almost everybody agreed that the success of U.N.O. depended upon harmony and unity being preserved between America, the Soviet Union and ourselves. It was argued at that time that, as a result of the war, these three countries had become so powerful compared with the other nations, that not one of them could possibly be coerced by the united force of the world without a world war, and, therefore, they must stick together and act in agreement. That is how the veto arose; nothing could be done unless those three were in unity.
The Labour Party at that time published a paper called "The International Postwar Settlement" in which they said:
"If we three hold together all will be well. If we fall apart all will be dark and uncertain"—
as it is now. That is a warning very strikingly fulfilled. I do not say that that conception of U.N.O. was ideal or a very high one, because it meant that when the Big Three spoke in unison all the smaller nations would have to hold their peace. It meant also that unless the Big Three were consistently animated by the noblest ideals and actuated by the highest motives there was a danger that they might perpetuate iniquity. Still it was a policy of a sort and it was a policy

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which corresponded with the realities of power at the time. If it did not ensure justice, it was certainly calculated to preserve a peace backed by overwhelming force.
We have now moved far away from that conception. That is why peace is in peril. As a matter of fact, as I think the Foreign Secretary said today, there has hardly been a moment since Potsdam when the Big Three have acted together in complete harmony. Every month differences and disagreements have deepened and widened between Russia and the other two, or the other three as they are now. Instead of being partners they have become antagonists. Every month has been marked by a new asperity, a fresh harshness, a further failure to observe the ordinary courtesies of diplomatic intercourse, and recourse to violent and provocative language which a few years ago would have been unthinkable except on the very verge of war to which it would undoubtedly have led in those days. All semblance of unity has now been dropped. At almost every international conference at which Russia is represented she has either assumed, or been forced, into a position of an opponent and an antagonist instead of a partner of the other three.
The result of all this is that international discussion has failed, meetings have been drowned in a torrent of talk and floods of dialectic. The same arguments have been repeated and refuted over and over again, and no decision has ever been reached. No concrete results have been obtained, while all the time the atmosphere of the world has been growing more heated and more inflammable. As a consequence, the people of the world, although they are reluctant to resign themselves to the sad inevitability of another war, with its possibilities of universal chaos and annihilation, are rapidly losing faith in U.N.O. and, indeed, in any international machinery for the preservation of peace. When a great new institution like U.N.O. loses the faith and confidence of the ordinary people, its actual usefulness is nearing its end. I am a supporter of U.N.O., as I was of the League of Nations. But I always thought that to jump at once from a world consisting of a number of independent sovereign States with different traditions and different economic systems to a one-world organisation, was a very long step to take and that
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it might not produce very satisfactory results. I have always thought that the first step to bring about international government would be for nations which had similar traditions, ways of life, economic circumstances and usually geographical proximity as well, to draw together and form regional councils or regional group systems to settle their own difficulties among themselves, and that those groups should send representatives to some world council to deal with matters affecting the world as a whole or with the differences between one region and another. U.N.O. has been constituted on a different plan from that, but there is provision in Article 52 of the Charter for the existence of regional groups.
I would like to see four or five groups formed under that Article to cover the whole world. Two of these groups are practically in existence—North and South America, with the exception of Canada, and the other the Soviet Union and its allies. Another might be formed of the rest of Asia south of the Soviet Union, which might or might not include the Muslim world, which might want to form a regional group of its own. The group which has been discussed tonight by so many people is the Western group which would comprise, I suppose, most of the Marshall countries. It would consist, that is to say, of the British Commonwealth, the nations of Western Europe, and their dependencies, the most important of which are, of course, in Africa, with its vast resources.
I do not intend to spend any time tonight in discussing the merits of the case for a Western zone, because so many distinguished Members on both sides of the House have already given their support to this plan. It has been mentioned several times in the Debate, and, I have no doubt, will be mentioned by others. Influential support has been given to this great conception, and there is no need for me to say anything about it; but I believe that just as life has its spiritual as well as its materialistic aspects so historic traditions as well as economic conditions play their part in moulding a nation's life. I have always held, for instance, that the peoples who have inherited the great traditions of the Roman Hellenic Empire or, rather, civilisation, are joined

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together by invisible, yet unique, bonds which link them all to the times of Caesar and Pericles. I have always hoped that that unity of Western Europe, which was destroyed by the Huns, the Goths, and the Vandals, would one day be restored. I would like to say, so that my position may be clearly understood, that Greece, the mother of Western civilisation, to whom we owe all the best we possess in our civilisation, must be a, part of the Western regional group. Greece must not be absorbed by another civilisation with which she has nothing whatever in common
Now I want to come to my central theme, which is that we ought to recognise frankly, and in the friendliest way, the existence and independence of the Eastern groups of nations—the Soviet Union, Poland, Hungary, Roumania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Yugoslavia. I do not understand why the Foreign Secretary, in praising the idea of a Western regional group, should have said that he was against a self-contained Eastern bloc. If there should be a Western group, there is no reason why we should not recognise an Eastern group, which is, in fact, already in existence. That group of peoples differs from the Western group of peoples in many ways. They have never belonged to the Roman Hellenic civilisation. In many of those peoples there is a strong touch of Asia and the East. They have a different sense of time, as one knows when listening to their interminable speeches at conferences. In the West we are rather impatient; we think of time in terms of weeks and days—those days which pass so swiftly—whereas they think in terms of centuries. Further, their economic life is now based on the Communist system, which differs from social democracy as we know it in Britain, as well as from capitalism. But possibly their system is better suited to their own economic needs and their political and social requirements.
As has been said in this Debate, these peoples, during the last two and a half years, have been going through a social revolution which, in many countries, is still proceeding. Kings, courtiers, and the military cliques which surrounded the Balkan thrones have disappeared. Great landed estates have been broken up, and a great work of rebuilding, reconstruction, and new development has been taken in
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hand by the various Governments. Young men and women in those countries are enthusiastically taking part in that work of reconstruction, and are backing up their Governments. That is a very important matter. By a series of inter-linking commercial treaties—a great number of which have been concluded within the last few months—they are developing a system of planned economy for the whole of that part of Europe, uniting Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Roumania, Hungary, Poland, and Czechoslovakia, and all to Russia. This link-up, it should be noted, has removed the danger of wars between Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, and between Roumania and Bulgaria, which, in olden days, kept the Balkans always in a state of ferment and unrest, and gave the diplomats of the great Powers many opportunities for mischief. That is something which should be remembered.
It is true—and there is no need to disguise it—that what we know here, and enjoy, as political democracy does not exist, to a great extent, in those countries. It never did; the people there have never had it. It is absurd to compare the corrupt and selfish oligarchies which existed before the war in most of those countries with the British Parliamentary system, which is the finest and freest form of government in the whole world, infinitely better than those in any other country, and has been won by ourselves through 700 years of constitutional and unconstitutional struggle, in which crowns have fallen and wealthy people and noblemen have bitten the dust.
Lord Tennyson, forgetting civil war, said that in this country
"… Freedom slowly broadens down From precedent to precedent."
That is largely true. There was no comparable process in those countries of Eastern Europe before the war. The peoples there were little more than serfs, and were starved and enslaved between coup d'etat and coup d'etat. Politics were then largely a series of intrigues between various families and one general and another. The people brought up under these conditions, know little, and perhaps care less, for political freedom as we know it. No doubt political speakers and writers work in those countries under considerable restraint, and under a strict censorship. It may be, however, that, as

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the danger of war or social reaction recedes, these restraints may be relaxed.
What they have, and what they cherish, is what they term "economic freedom." They say that this should precede political freedom, which is impossible without it. They are only at the beginning of this great experiment; they are laying the foundations of a new system. Upon these foundations there may be erected—who knows?—in future, a mighty civilisation, differing in many respects from ours, just as the Taj Mahal differs from Westminster Abbey, but suited to its own needs, and not unworthy of mankind.
My point is that these people should be allowed to work out their own salvation in their own way without any interference or any intervention from us or anybody else—[Interruption.] These people include the Russian people. Treaty rights or no treaty rights, it is not an act of wise statesmanship to send a continual stream of notes protesting against their methods of elections, or their Press laws, or even their political trials, especially when there is no intention of following up those protests by any action. We create the maximum irritation and and also the fear on the part of Soviet Russia that we are trying to weaken their defences in that part of the world. Although some hon. Members may disagree about that, I am confident that a great Conservative Foreign Minister like the third Marquess of Salisbury, the grandfather of the present Marquess, would agree with what I have said. That is what his policy was.
I turn to our relations with Russia. Two years ago I suggested in this House that the Prime Minister should head a peace mission to Russia to try to get a modus vivendi with Marshal Stalin. That was not accepted. A year last December, Marshal Stalin told Mr. Elliot Roosevelt that he would welcome another meeting of the Big Three, and said that he hoped there would be several such meetings. That suggestion has not been followed up either, and such a meeting has not taken place. Since then, the international situation has deteriorated still further.
I suggest that if the Prime Minister went, he should be accompanied by a strong delegation representing the finest statesmanship not only of this country but
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of the whole Commonwealth. He will find his task far more difficult than it would have been two years ago, but although it is more difficult, I do not think it is hopeless, for the following reason. In view of the terrible devastation which Russia suffered in the last war—entire provinces were swept bare of any kind of building, house, or factory or of any semblance of human life, and 24 million people, it is said, which is equal to half the population of England, lost their lives—it must be clear that every responsible Russian leader must view the prospect of another war with the utmost horror. That is why I was glad when the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) said that he did not believe it was any part of the Russian design to lead to hostilities. Although they must all view it with horror, I know that in spite of that there is a school of Russian Marxists who believe that that horror is bound to come, whether they want it or not. This is the school which believes that capitalism itself, through its own internal strains, will sooner or later be forced to attack the Communist States. Therefore, they argue, it is the duty of the Russian Government, in self-defence, first to develop any kind of weakness which they can see on the opposite side, to let everything fall into confusion if they can contribute to that, and to push the frontiers of their control ever farther westward, so that, if they can possibly manage it, there will be no base left in Europe from which an attack upon them could be launched. The influence of that school is strengthened, as was pointed out in two interesting articles which appeared in "The Times" a few weeks ago, by the fact that many Russians believe that the Western Powers are now trying to reduce Russia's sphere of influence in Europe, as they did after the Congress of Vienna in 1815 and after the Congress of Berlin in 1878.
But there is another school of thought in Russia, a more realistic school in my view, which takes up a more pragmatical attitude, and as the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington said, the Kremlin is realistic. These leaders hope that it may be found possible for Soviet Communism and Western democracy to exist side by side in peace. They realise, too, as was suggested in the famous Communist Manifesto of 1848, that a conflict

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between the two might possibly end in the ruin of both. These people say that if the Russian Government were certain that they would never again be attacked from the West, and that no attempts would be made to weaken that great defensive belt of Allied countries which stand on solid guard before the road to Moscow, they would wish to devote, and would gladly do so, the next 10, 15 or lo years to reconstructing their own country, to restoring their own economy and developing the vast resources of their Asiatic territory.
That seems to me to be a sensible line to take. It is the line that we ourselves would take if we were Russia. It is sometimes a good thing to put oneself in the position of a wise opponent or a wise foreigner or a wise Russian, and say, "What would I do in that position?" That is the most sensible thing for Russia to do. Is it better for her to be involved in a war in which she might be destroyed, and certainly would suffer terrific injuries, or to remain at peace and build up a territory which is not one of limited space? It is enormous far-ranging territory in which all sorts of mineral and other wealth are to be found. That is what that school of thought would do if they were sure they would never be attacked again from the West. Some them also believe that by the end of that period of 10, 15 or 30 years, they would have made such a success of their own enterprise that other countries would follow their example without fear and without a fight. That is as may be.
Judging from his public utterances, Marshal Stalin himself belongs to this school of thought. Therefore, it should I our policy to prove to him that he is right in taking that line. When I said, two years ago, that the division of Europe into two parts was bound to come, and that we might as well accept it, and let it come about in a friendly atmosphere, I was told from the Front Bench that I was advocating a counsel of despair. I have been told that before. I was told I was advocating a counsel of despair when I said in 1933 that the only way to deal with the Hitler menace was to re-arm as rapidly as we possibly could. Now that this division of Europe into two parts has come, it is no good saying that we believe in the unity of Europe. There is the unity of Western Europe and the unity of
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Eastern Europe. The division of East and West has come, but instead of coming in a friendly way, as I had hoped, it has come in an atmosphere of anger and hostility.
I think there is still time to change that atmosphere to something better. The Government ought to assure the Soviet Government, in the most formal and categorical manner, that we have no more intention of interfering with Russia or with the Soviet zone of influence—all the countries I have mentioned—or with their internal affairs than we have any intention of interfering with the internal affairs of the United States of America. As I have said on a previous occasion, just as we recognise the Monroe doctrine for the Western Hemisphere, so we should recognise an equally strong Monroe doctrine for the East. Let us tell the Soviet Government and her allies also that our only desire is to live on friendly terms with them and to trade with them as much as we possibly can, even if it is by means of barter. In return, of course, the Soviet Union and her allies would have to refrain from any interference in our sphere of influence in the West. That includes, as I said, Greece.
I am not going into that matter now, but it is not correct to say that the unhappy position there is due entirely to a Communist conspiracy from the North. It is due also to internal conditions which have been prevailing for many years and derive directly from the unfortunate intervention of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) towards the end of the war. It is to be noted that in 1944 Russia did not interfere in Greece because under the Yalta Agreement she considered that Greece came into our sphere of influence. The result of being in our sphere of influence has not been too happy for that gallant people and their fair and famous land. But that is another story.
In the improved atmosphere which would follow such an agreement with Russia, we would be in a much better position to solve the problems of Germany and Austria than we are now, because that problem can only be finally solved with the collaboration of the Soviet Union. We should also be in a better position to deal with the dangerous position in Trieste. I should also hope that things would run far more smoothly for

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the Security Council and for the other international bodies upon which the Soviet and her allies would be represented. U.N.O. might at last work. It has never really started to work yet owing to internal troubles on the Council.
Mr. Molson: And the Veto.
Mr. Cocks: I would plead with the Prime Minister to take the initiative in this matter. It may be that he will fail, as Charles James Fox failed to come `to an agreement with Napoleon. He thought he could, and that Pitt was wrong, and that he could always have made an agreement with Napoleon. But when he succeeded Pitt, he found he could not. And the Prime Minister might fail in the same way. But the attempt would be worth making, and it is possible that it might succeed. If the Prime Minister did succeed, I think we would all agree that he would go down in history with greener laurels than ever crowned a nations' leader in a victorious war.
8.22 p.m.
Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: The theme, so far as I could follow it, of the hon. Member for Broxstowe (Mr. Cocks) seemed to sum itself up something like this, that if only we could give an assurance to Russia that she was in no danger of attack from the Western Powers, some form of living together in peace and amity would still be fairly easily achieved. He went on to describe how the Russian conception of things divided itself into two parts: firstly, the pure Marxists doctrine which thinks that capitalism would automatically die and is in fact already half dead, and the others who think both might live in amity side by side. If, in fact, capitalism which we are accused of by Communists is a dying force, how can it have the power to attack Russia? So, therefore, from their own argument, I would imagine they were answered.
So far as the second category is concerned, I should have thought that any onlooker who has watched the forbearance and the patience of His Majesty's Government in trying to persuade Russian delegates on these conferences that we had no aim at them whatever, and even the hon. Member, would have been persuaded that something different had in fact
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to be tried, and that that is why the Foreign Secretary outlined in the grave and sombre speech which he delivered to this House what was for the Government a considerable change of front.
I for one am glad, and I believe many hon. Members on both sides of the House will have been glad to hear creep into our considerations virtually for the first time in foreign affairs the word "commonwealth." We await with interest the plan, for today was only the promise of a plan, to see how far that integration can be consolidated and be made compatible with the other aims, that is to say, the closer integration with Europe, with which I also agree. But there is going to be very considerable and important and difficult inter-play between those two conceptions which the Foreign Secretary has it in mind to try to marry. When the famous Marshall speech was made, it was evident to all the world that it would have a profound effect upon our foreign policy. Our Foreign Secretary at once took the initiative, and the rest is history to anybody who studies international affairs at all. At this moment that plan or report is battling its way through Congress and will emerge sooner or later in a more or less bowdlerised form and will affect the 16 European nations including ourselves, and perhaps the whole world, very profoundly.
It is one of the aspects of the Marshall proposals which I should like for a few moments to examine. The 16 participating nations pledged themselves to a number of things. They pledged themselves to as much co-operation and pooling of resources as is possible. They pledged themselves to examine the possibility of a customs union. We have already heard of Benelux; now we have the talks betwen Italy and France, and other talks between Turkey and Greece and the Scandinavian countries considering proposals along the same line. A customs union may mean little or much. It may only go a short way and stop or move along the road which will eventually join it to political integration and even the merging of nationalities. But if it means anything at all it must mean that those participating nations are determined to reduce or abolish such tariffs as exist between them. That is all to the good. That is a modern conception. That is a planner's paradise. Let us admit that much of Europe today

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is an anachronism. Just as under the pressure of economic events big units have, in order to preserve themselves, grown up in industry, so big units among the nations are being pressed for the purposes of their own security to merge themselves together, having behind them a great home consuming public and a great reservoir of manpower.
So the 16 nations whose differences in the past have been very great, who had different languages, different political conceptions and rivalries, are being urged to get together. In the past they hurled insults and occasionally armies at one another. That, we hope, is now stopped. The lion will lie down with the lamb. Throughout history that has taken place continually—Scotland with England, Germany, the United States of America and the United States of Soviet Russia. And there are those—we have heard them today—who are now starting to urge, in view of the impossibility of a European bloc, the formation of a Western European bloc.
This may lead far. It must have a good economic effect upon the world in general, for who is going to argue that the world would have been better off if the States which go to make up the United States of America had all remained separate political entities; if Illinois, for example, had had its own economy or Texas its own taxes? Will anybody solemnly aver that the world would have been better off trading with Maryland as an individual concern, or with California? Would the United States of America or the world have been better in those circumstances, or would Europe have been better off to trade independently with the canton of Berne or the canton of Geneva? Certainly, that cannot be so. The world has benefited by prosperous component parts. Prosperity is derived from strength. Therefore, customs unions which are, as the right hon. Gentleman said, strength, will advantage the world.
But, and here is a curious matter, there is one customs union in existence already which, paradoxically and illogically, seems to draw resentment and criticism from the United States. I refer to our Commonwealth, because Imperial Preference is only a half-way house to a customs union. We were urged to form a customs union by the report of the Marshall Plan. Through some form of illogical thinking,
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the customs union among the 16 nations of Europe is extolled, but it is criticised when it exists between the Dominions and ourselves. By what logical process of thought can we be asked to create a customs union in "Marshall-land," which I should welcome, and destroy it within our own Commonwealth—to build where our differences are so great that building must be difficult, and to pull down among the Dominions and countries who share a common language, a common political thought, and who are tied by sentiment and common loyalties to the one Crown? Surely, that would be Imperial Preference in reverse. That is illogical thinking.
How can it be praiseworthy that goods should be able to pass without let or hindrance from, let us say, Maryland to New York or from Vladivostok to Moscow, and yet that it should be wrong for goods similarly to pass from Adelaide or Johannesburg to London? One group of countries are separated by land; the others by water. Is there something specially sacred in land and specially vicious in water?
The Marshall Plan calls upon all the participating countries to do all they can to put themselves on their feet. As has been said today, dependent territories are mentioned occasionally in that report but only as a sort of afterthought and side line and generally in connection with our needs. Dependent territories, in any case, cannot cover our Dominions. What can the Commonwealth contribute? I was delighted to hear today that at last the Commonwealth, and indeed the French colonies and the colonies of other participating countries, were to come into the picture. But up till now we have taken no thought of what that contribution can be. It is like a parent company having drawn up a balance sheet without having incorporated the results of its main subsidiary. From time to time we see efforts made to develop our Colonies. Thus, we have the growing of tobacco in Northern Rhodesia and the groundnut scheme in Africa. Only the other day General Smuts mentioned his production of uranium plan. But they give the impression of being spasmodic and disjointed efforts. There seems to be no correlation and integration of all those plans into one great whole.
Therefore, I urge the Government to call at once a conference of representatives from the whole of the Commonwealth, charged with two purposes—first,

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to see how far the Commonwealth can, in fact, contribute to setting both ourselves and the European nations on their feet again and to the world recovery of prosperity. Secondly, and leading on from that, they should be asked to what extent, and how many of them, wish to adhere to a single economic unit, with as much right to trade freely within itself as have the component parts of the United States of America. There is no conflict between this and the Marshall Plan, although it makes the integration of the two rather more complicated.
One thing is certain, and that is that this country will take an imperial toss if she allows herself to be driven ever more closely into a European customs union, and, at the same time, driven away ever further from her own Commonwealth. Economics, prudence, sentiment and history all cry out against such a course. Nor, indeed, would such a step be aimed at the United States, which only recently, I understand, incorporated Alaska and Hawaii into her union. Well and good. All past statistics show that, when inter-Empire trade has been prosperous and strong, so has the trade of these nations of the Empire with outside countries. British countries, in prewar years, bought 42 per cent. of the exports of the United States. What evidence is there of our having done any damage to them? We have always bought from the U.S.A. more than we have been able to sell them.
Surely, then, the stronger and more prosperous we are in normal times, the more we shall be able to buy from the United States? Between 1932, when the Ottawa Conference virtually set up the Imperial Preference system, and the outbreak of the war, the export trade of the United States to British countries increased not only absolutely, but in proportion to the whole trade of that country.
Mr. Scollan: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman explain how we can legitimately restore preferential tariffs in the Empire against America, while, at the same time, asking America to give us things free, gratis and for nothing to tide us over our difficulties?
Colonel Hutchison: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman; that is what I am trying to convey. The American logic on this question is completely faulty. America is
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asking us to go into a customs union in which there shall be no tariffs, and, at the same time, asking us not to continue preferential tariffs with our Commonwealth. They are advocating that we should abandon in the Commonwealth what they want us to set up with European countries. I must join issue with the hon. Member on that logic. I cannot see it in that light, and I cannot understand why one customs union should be good and the other one bad. The United States maintains preferences between herself and the Philippines and Cuba. I do not object to that, and, if she cared to incorporate them completely in her own union, I would not object.
Let us then see what our own Commonwealth can, in fact, contribute to world recovery. Let us see how many great development schemes could be put on foot. Some have already started in a spasmodic way. Perhaps the United States would like to take a hand in that development? When we were a great creditor nation, our surplus funds found their way into the four corners of the earth, to the great benefit of mankind. A strong Commonwealth must benefit the world in the same way as a strong United States has benefited the world. The United States would have in the Commonwealth a strong strategic partner, for in the foreseeable future, we must be partners together. We share the same thoughts and conceptions of human rights and the freedoms under which men can live, and we are both aiming at the same world prosperity. What, then, is more natural, or more logical, than that we and our related States, in whose veins so much of our blood pulses at this time, should get together and see what we can do to formulate a joint plan for our own prosperity and for the benefit of the world in general?
8.40 p.m.
Mr. Gallacher: Many years ago, in the days before the first world war, we used to sing with great gusto in the Socialist Sunday school:
"Old folks all, a word with you,
What a world to bring us to,
We must build the world anew,
Marching all together."
I am quite certain that the right hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) joined in the singing, but I am equally certain that he never contem-

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plated, nor did any others on this side of the House when they were singing that chorus, that the Leader of the Opposition and the Tory Party would be marching along with them. I am sure that if the Durham miners saw what was going on in this House, they would realise that the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) spoke nearer to their heart's desire than the right hon. Member for Chester-le-Street.
He asked, what is it the Russians want? I will tell him. He should go to the bomb-shattered areas of the East End of London and ask the people there what they want, and what those people would tell him is what the Russians also would tell him. They want peace. Much nonsense is talked about one-party government. The logical trend of historical development is one-party government. [Laughter.] All right. Do hon. Members on this side of the House who are laughing believe that Socialism is going to be successful? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Very well, then, what will happen to the capitalists and the capitalist party? Do they mean that the Tory Party will exist when we get Socialism? When the Leader of the House, who was faced with this dilemma in his own mind, spoke the other clay, he proposed political partition in Britain. "Do not," he said, "whatever you do, get a 100 per cent. victory. The ideal thing is two-thirds Labour and one-third Tory." I know from Scriptural reading that Joshua ordered the sun and the moon to stand still, but the Leader of the Opposition goes one better. He orders historical development to stand still. What nonsense! Can hon. Members laugh at that?
I have never listened to a speech so rotten with misrepresentation and distortion as that made by the Foreign Secretary today. I am sorry I cannot go into all the details of the speech and that I have not the time to deal with the tragic situation in Greece, where the workers are battling against most terrible obstacles as the result of intervention started by the Leader of the Opposition, continued by a Labour Foreign Secretary, and now handed over to the brutal overlords of America. I will give just two typical examples of that misrepresentation and distortion. The Foreign Secretary said—it is within the memory of all of us—that Russia was organising a self-
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contained bloc of States, and cutting them off from the rest of Europe. Let the Foreign Secretary ask the President of the Board of Trade. He has got a trade agreement with Poland. Is that cutting it off from Europe? Is it part of a self-contained bloc? He has a trade agreement with Soviet Russia. Is that "cutting off from the rest of Europe"? He is discussing a trade agreement with Yugoslavia, with Bulgaria and with Roumania; he has got a trade agreement with Czechoslovakia. Is that "cutting off" from the rest of Europe?
Was there ever such blatant misrepresentation? The only case on record where we have outside interference is in the case of Britain. It is not the case in connection with any of these countries to which the Foreign Secretary referred; they are free to negotiate with any other State. Consider this country and America. The only case of outside interference is the declaration by Mr. Marshall that he was consulted about our trade agreement with the Soviet Union and he approved of it. What would have happened had he not approved of it?
Take the case of the French strike. It was not a political strike; it was a strike on wages, and it was settled as a result of protracted negotiations on the basis of a wage increase which was a compromise on the original demand. I say this to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition as well as to the Foreign Secretary: if there were a Tory government in this country, and the workers had the wages which the workers had in France, and prices were continually soaring, and there was an open, shameless black market such as there is in France, there would have been strikes in every part of this country. It is a shameful thing for the Foreign Secretary to stand there and use against the French worker the very accusations which the Leader of the Opposition and hiscrowd made against the right hon. Gentleman himself when we had the general strike in this country.
Of course, it is true that we are in a grave political situation. I would remind Members on this side of the House of what the Leader of the House said at the Labour Party conference at Bournemouth in 1946:
"When we went into the economic and financial smash of 1931 we did not know we were going there. We ought to have known

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what was ahead, but we did not know because there was no proper machinery of State to tell us and when we got there we did not know fully what to do about it. If you are not prepared to go into an economic and financial smash, there is not much you can do about it. Our Tory predecessors in 1929 left no preparation behind them. The real problem of statesmanship in the field of industry and economics is to see the trouble coming and to prevent ourselves getting into the smash."
I want to know if the Government foresaw and were preparing for the present relations with the Soviet Union, because just before the election the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
"I most emphatically hold that a British Labour Government is far more likely to remove these suspicions"—
that is the Soviet suspicions—
"than a British Tory Government."
When did the rift between this country and the Soviet Union begin? It began with the speech at Fulton, Missouri. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition knows that perfectly well and he knows that the Foreign Office, staffed as it is with Tories, followed consistently the line of Fulton, and from the speech at Fulton relations between this country and the Soviet Union have steadily deteriorated. [Laughter.] I will give hon. Members something to laugh about before long. This is no laughing matter for the people of this country. But now that we have such an obvious and close unity between the leaders of the Labour Party and the leaders of the Tory Party, I will make my appeal to the Trade Union movement, the Co-operative movement, the rank and file of the Labour movement, to the general body of the British people, who desire above all things peace and progress, unhampered by the monopoly capitalists of America, and the graft and corruption that are characteristic features of their rule. Would the Deputy Leader of the Opposition like to deny that?
The right hon. Gentleman talked so much about propaganda from Russia against us. What about the propaganda of this country? Look at the papers day after day. Consider the feeling that is being created against Mr. Molotov. We have got such a vicious prejudice created against Mr. Molotov that sooner or later every little time-server will get into line and give out the bleat, "Mr. Molotov said 'No.'" Yet Mr. Molotov has always been a fighter for the realisation
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of the Socialist system of society. Surely, instead of being sneered at by Socialists he should be honoured. They should be proud of him because he was strong enough to stand up against the representatives of the big dollar boys. It is an indication of political degeneracy that we get Socialists lined up sneering against Molotov. I would remind the House that Mr. Molotov is in good company; because I have read about One who, 2,000 years ago, was led on to a high mountain by Mr. Marshall—I beg pardon—Satan, who showed Him all the countries of the world, and he offered Him all the dollars He could desire, if only He would serve him. What was the answer? An emphatic "No." And a continuing emphatic "No."
But let us get to the guts of this matter. We need only to refer to the appalling and grovelling speech made over the radio by the Prime Minister a few nights ago. I use the term deservedly. I have here one or two quotations from a columnist, Don Iddon of the "Daily Mail," writing from America. Here are some:
"Messrs. Attlee and Morrison, who usually trail at the foot of the Third Division in popular contests here, are now being promoted. Socialist theories are still anathema, of course, in this citadel of capitalism, but even the Union League Club (the American Carlton)"—
hon. Members know how bad that is—
"is conceding that Britain's Cabinet Ministers have finally got the right idea about the Soviet. So after two and a half years of distaste and distrust from the United States, the Pinks in Whitehall and Westminster are being smiled and waved at. Wall Street is forcing itself to nod politely, and the Middle West is essaying a wink. If more affectionate gestures are required, then all the Prime Minister and his colleagues need to do is again to put the blast on the U.S.S.R. It is sure fire and cannot miss."—
I would say in relation to that, "Shame a thousand times on those who have dragged the sacred name of Socialism and the scarlet banner of Socialism into the filthy mire of American capitalism."
The Prime Minister said in that radio speech that the Soviet Union was following a policy of ideological, economic and strategical imperialism. I do not know if the language expert is here, the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn); I do not think he is. However, I am sure he would agree with me that that could be called using language,

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not to clarify, but to confuse thought. True, ideology, economic pressure or strategic manoeuvre can be used to further imperialism, but none of these things, or all of them combined, is imperialism. Imperialism is capitalism in the stage of monopoly—[Laughter.] Oh, yes; it is capitalism in the stage of monopoly, when the export of capital is absolutely essential to the maintenance of its economy. That is a definition of imperialism which will be borne out by the close and valuable study of Hobson, and I challenge anyone to give a better definition.
If we accept that definition, then Russia is ruled out as an imperialistic Power. There are no capitalists in Russia; they have no big financial houses looking round the world for rich fields of investment to bring them in dividends. Russia has no such thing. But in America at the present time there is the greatest accumulation of investment capital that has ever existed in the history of the world. I ask the Opposition: is that true or is it not true? Any Socialist must understand the simple elementary fact that investment capital cannot lie idle, but must be put to work exploiting labour. American capitalists in the past were able to invest masses of capital opening up the American continent, and they could afford to be isolationists; but the American continent can no longer absorb the capital that is now lying idle. Therefore, they have to look to Europe and Asia. That is why America has taken over the Mediterranean, the Near East, the Far East and Western Germany. Will anybody contradict me on any of this? They have taken over those areas, and Iceland, Greenland, the Aleutian Islands, and a whole host of naval, military, and air bases all round the world. That is why we have the Marshall Plan, because they have masses of capital waiting to be invested in Europe and Asia; and the cry goes out, "Down with the Communists. Open the way for the advance of American investment capital."
Where are the representatives of the City of London? [Laughter.] Listen to them. For generations London was the financial centre of the world. Is it that today? Let hon. Members opposite have a good laugh now. Is it that today? Who robbed London of that advantageous position? Was it the Soviet Union?
Mr. David Thomas: No, New York.
Mr. Gallacher: Yes, Wall Street; and Wall Street spits in their faces; and even as they wipe the spittle off they cringe in cowardly subservience, because they are afraid of the working class—the only class that could give this country a new and independent life. Where is the Leader of the Opposition? How often have we seen a picture of him in a big peaked cap and reefer jacket marching up and down the quarterdeck, while the massed bands played:
"Rule Britannia,
Britannia rule the waves"?
Can he do that now? Who has told him that that music must be played no more? Was in Bulgaria, was it Yugoslavia—?
Mr. Nigel Birch: Wall Street.
Mr. Gallacher: The American counterpart of the First Sea Lord declared the other day that America is now master of the seas. Can hon. Members opposite say "Rule Britannia" now? No, they cannot. Is there a Mediterranean Fleet? If there is, what use is it? America has a Mediterranean Fleet. Did the right hon. Gentleman opposite, when he was over that way, ask the people of the Mediterranean countries, who are now masters of the Mediterranean? If so, did they not tell him that the American fleet and the American marines are the bosses of the Mediterranean? Is there a Far-Eastern fleet, and if so, what use is it? America and the American Navy are in full mastery of the Eastern seas. Can anyone deny that? It is to this degrading situation that this country has been brought. It has been brought to this situation by the base treachery started by the Leader of the Opposition at Fulton, Missouri. That is what has brought this country down to this grovelling position before the swollen dollar Moloch, which has become the god not only of America but of certain Governments of Europe.
What a shame it is that the Socialists should be looking to Mr. Marshall and the monopoly capitalists of America, instead of to the mass movement of the working-class in this and other countries to bring freedom to us and to Europe. I am a Communist, and I am proud of it. It is a foolish lie that Communist ideology came from Russia to this country. It is the other way round. Communist ideology

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was to be found in this country 600 years ago in the speeches of Wat Tyler and John Ball. It was there 300 years ago in the agitation of the Levellers during the Parliamentary wars when the bourgeois in this country set a fine example to Europe by cutting off the head of one King, and soon afterwards chasing another out of the country. Hon. Members opposite are worrying now about King Michael of Roumania, but that was the example they set. When they did not like James, they brought another fellow over from Holland and sent James flying. Yes, the ideology of Communism was to be found amongst the Levellers.
There is not a revolutionary idea in existence which has not had its birth in this country. The "un-American Activities Committee" gave a poor musician from Hollywood a roasting for un-American actions. What were these activities? He was shown in a photograph being met by some young lads on a railway station and giving the clenched-fist salute. I wrote to the Committee and told them I had seen this report. I told them that if some of their members would come over to St. Stephen's Hall, which is part of the Palace of Westminster, they would see a statue of Charles James Fox giving the clenched-fist salute. It was a symbol of defiance to the tyrants of Europe, a symbol of welcome to the new America of George Washington. But I said I wondered what Fox would say if he came back and saw the freedom-destroying antics of that Committee.
The Communist ideology was there in the writings, speeches and poems of the great artist and poet, William Morris, long before there was a Soviet Russia. This has been the home of revolutionary ideas and of revolutionary struggles. So I am proud to be a Communist and I declare here that the Communist Party has no other interest than the welfare and the advancement of the working-class and the professional allies of the working-class. Only the working-class and its professional allies can save this country, can remake this country, can give this old country a new lease of life, and lead it forward to higher and better things. Not from the Opposition side, no. Death and decay is represented over there, death and damnation for this country and the people of this country. Every Socialist ought to
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understand that. The association that has been exhibited between the Front Benches today should be a warning of what is taking place.
So I appeal to the trade unionists and co-operators, to the rank and file of the Labour movement, to the people of Britain, to gird up their strength and advance towards the great goal of Socialism, and in the process wipe out capitalism and the Tory Party that represents capitalism. Let us build up cooperation with the Soviet Union, with the progressive peoples of Europe, of Asia, of the Dominions and of America, and lay the foundations for peace and progress throughout this wearied and broken world.
9.8 p.m.
Sir Peter Macdonald: I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), apart from saying that I enjoyed his music hall turn very much. I thought that he was a little inconsistent when he attacked American capitalism so violently and then complained because they would not trade with Russia, because his fellow traveller, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) took the opposite line. Therefore, I do not think that it is necessary for me to deal with the argument of the hon. Member for West Fife. I leave that to the right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up the Debate. If he can get any sense out of that speech, he is welcome to answer it.
The reason I intervene in this Debate is to raise a problem which the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate omitted from his speech, although I know for a fact that it is a subject which he has very much at heart—the question of displaced persons in Europe. During the last few days, there has been a very excellent summary of the situation in "The Times" from the Geneva correspondent of that paper. There is also in the Select Committee on Estimates Report on Germany some paragraphs dealing with the situation in that country. I happened to be a Member of that Committee that went to Germany, and I had the opportunity of visiting some of these displaced persons camps.
During the Recess I had an opportunity through the courtesy of the executive secretary, an American, and our own British representative on the Interna-

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tional Refugee Organisation in Geneva, of investigating the work of that organisation at Geneva. At the outset I should like to say that I was very impressed by the work which that organisation has done in the short time in which it has functioned. The executive secretary, Mr. William Tuck, is a first-class man for the job which he has been appointed to do, and he is ably supported by our representative, Sir Arthur Rucker, who is working with him. I found that there is amicable relationship between these two men, who are doing their utmost to solve this problem.
What is the problem? Go back to the end of the war and we will find out. The Allied Armies in Europe found about 8 million homeless displaced people in Germany, Austria and Italy. Most of them were people who were brought to Germany by the Germans to work as slave labour. Some of them were people who had been driven from their own homes, and a great many of them were people in concentration camps, mostly Jews. Of that 8 million people, only about 1 million remain, and the highest praise is due to our Army and to the Americans for the way they handled that enormous body of people, most of whom have been returned to their own homes. France alone had over two million of their population as forced labour in Germany, and then there were those from Belgium and the other occupied countries. Nearly all have been restored to their homes.
There remain under one million people, mostly political D.Ps., and as there are 52 Member States in the United Nations organisation one might imagine that that is a manageable number and should be quite easily dealt with. However, that is not the case. It is true that there are 52 nations in the United Nations organisation, but of the 52 only 21 have signed the I.R.O. Convention, and of that 21 only 12 have ratified it. Only 13 nations including ourselves are paying contribution towards the funds necessary to carry out this work. The financial aspect is the crux of the whole problem. The organisation is working today on a 75 per cent. budget. Their problem is an enormous one. Those million people, the residue, are the core of the problem. Various schemes, including one by our own Government—the Westward Ho scheme—have been
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introduced for the resettlement of these people. In a lot of cases the able-bodied young men or the cream of these camps have been taken and the relatives, generally old people and children, left behind. That is what we mean by the hard core of the problem. These are the most difficult people to settle, and resettlement is the only answer to this problem.
There is the question of maintenance, and that is where most of the money is going today. Out of £115 million in this year's budget, over £80 million has been spent on care and maintenance of these people, and only about £4 million for resettlement and about £14 million for administration.
Mr. Stokes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this country has taken only about 14,000 people, and it really is not true to say that all the young men have been stripped from the camps. There are lots of them still there.
Sir P. Macdonald: Perhaps my hon. Friend will let me finish this part of my speech. There may be only 14,000 so far as this country is concerned, but there has been resettlement in Belgium, in South American countries, and practically all over the world. Where these people have gone, young and fit men were wanted who could work, and the young men have in many cases not taken their families.
Mr. Stokes: Really, the hon. Member is quite wrong there. It may be so in only a few cases, but in the majority of cases the families have gone.
Sir P. Macdonald: I have visited these camps, and in Geneva I have seen the head of the I.L.O., from whom I have obtained facts and figures. It is no earthly use the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) denying them. I know he is an authority upon every subject, but I have facts and figures straight from the I.L.O., as well as from our own headquarters in Germany. The fact is that there are still some young people who might well be settled if they would leave their relatives, but many of them were separated for years from their families. They have found each other again in these camps and have been brought together, under rather depressing circumstances it is true. They are very reluctant to be separated again, which is quite understandable.

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This is not a problem of party politics and I am not trying to make party capital out of it. I know that the hon. Member is very concerned about it. I am also very concerned, because I do not think that the Government have adopted a realistic attitude towards the problem. More drive will have to be put into it, otherwise the problem will be there for the rest of our lives. The longer we leave it the more difficult it becomes. Every year, 20,000 more people are born in the camps than die there. The population of the camps is increasing. People are getting older. The longer they are unemployed the more unemployable they become. The problem becomes more difficult to solve.
What approach do I suggest? Our representatives on the Preparatory Commission of the I.L.O. ought to be told to take a more realistic view of the situation. Today, although resettlement is being found for a number of people, other people are pouring into the camps. There is an infiltration all the time. Many of the newcomers may be war refugees. They may, on the other hand, just feel that they would be happier in one of our very comfortable camps—as some of the camps are—having an easy life rather than staying in their own countries and working. It is therefore essential that a target date should be instituted, after which no one should be accepted as a war refugee. The way to deal with future political refugees is another problem but we must have a time limit for war refugees. That position has not been faced. I understand that the American President has laid down the principle that anybody who says he is a refugee from any country in Europe, shall be admitted to one of these camps. That is a hopeless situation. We shall never get the problem cleared up as long as that principle obtains.
The other question concerns finance. More pressure should be put upon countries who have signed the Convention, but have not ratified it, to ratify it. The I.R.O. organisation cannot be set up until 15 countries have ratified it. So far only 12 have done so. Some countries have signified their intention to subscribe but they have not paid and they should be urged to do so in order to keep the budget up to scratch; otherwise it will be impossible to keep these camps. We have 420 of them in the British zone of Ger-
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many, there are hundreds in the American zone and hundreds scattered throughout Europe and the Middle East. There is no hope of getting this problem dealt with unless pressure is put on from Government sources. This country and the United States are the people to take the initiative. If they adopt a realistic attitude and bring pressure to bear on the nations who have not carried out their obligations, the problem can be cleared up within two years. If it is allowed to drag on it will become a problem for all time and a permanent liability on the resources of this country and the United States.
I join with others in congratulating the Foreign Secretry on at last taking a realistic view with regard to Germany. Last time I spoke here I urged him to face realities and deal with the problem in our territory in Germany. I pointed to what was found in Germany at that time according to the Report of the Select Committee on Estimates. There was a chaotic situation economically and politically, because of a lack of decision on the part of the Allied Governments. I pointed out then that if the situation was not faced realistically soon, the Germans, who were already beginning to lose faith not only in us and the Allies but in democracy, would in all probability be driven into another camp. I am today told that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government have faced that situation in some respects but I regret very much that the monetary policy which is the crux of the economic situation has still not been faced and until that is dealt with, we shall have economic and political chaos in the British zone and the Western part of Germany.
I also welcomed the right hon. Gentleman's reference to a possibility of a federation of Western Europe. I have been rather sceptical about the possibility of such a federation or of our taking part in it in the past but, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) said today, I do not think it is beyond the wit of man to devise means whereby the British Commonwealth can maintain its status as a Commonwealth and, at the same time, have a link with a united Europe. That is a job for statesmen and statesmanship, and I am quite confident that it can be brought about. I was very much impressed last summer when I was invited

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to attend a conference with that object in view at Gstaad in Switzerand. I went more as an interested onlooker than as an enthusiast, because, being a very ardent and passionate believer in the British Commonwealth and all it means, as well as Imperial Preference, I did not think it was possible for us to surrender our sovereignty to such an extent as to become part of a European federation.
However, I was impressed when I found at the conference representatives of practically every European country in large numbers. I was also much impressed with their keenness and enthusiasm for the possibility of forming a European Parliamentary union. They were drawing up a framework of the organisation, and as I was one of four British delegates, they put me on the executive. It depends entirely on what shape the policy takes. Some people go so far as to say that we have to surrender all our British sovereignty to take part in a European Federation. If so, then I am not for it, but I believe it is not beyond the wit of man to devise means whereby we can maintain our Empire status and at the same time not be cut off from Europe. Therefore, I hope this policy will be pursued, and that every step will be taken to bring Germany within that Federation should it come about.
9.26 p.m.
Mr. Christopher Shawcross: There is one thing in the speech of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) with which I, and I feel a great many of us on this side, must agree. We must all confess that during the election campaign we assured the electorate of two important things: the first was that only a Socialist Government could maintain friendship with Soviet Russia, the second was that only a Socialist foreign policy could restore Europe and bring permanent peace. That is about the only thing I said which has been contradicted by events, but does anything else matter? Nationalisation, housing, full employment, social welfare, all these are nothing if we are steadily and may be rapidly drifting into an economic disaster of the first magnitude, or if we are heading, it may be tomorrow or in five, ten or 20 years for a third world war. If those are the prospects as I see them, what is the cause?
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I believe the cause is mainly this: that this Socialist Government has never yet had a real Socialist foreign policy. For that reason I was profoundly disappointed and disturbed to hear the great speech of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. Why is that so? Because it seemed to me that he was using all those great and weighty arguments which led to one conclusion, the conclusion of a constructive idea which could be put forward by this party and adopted by all the democratic parties of Europe. But what happened? Using all those arguments to that inevitable conclusion, he then perpetrated the greatest anti-climax I have ever heard. What did he say? What did he propose? It was nothing more—and I say this with the greatest regret and at the same time with the greatest respect—than the kind of woolly generalities, the kind of vague platitudes that one might have expected from a Ramsay MacDonald at the end of his life.
Is it too late to urge the Government to draw that conclusion to which the Foreign Secretary's speech inevitably led, the conclusion to which also the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) pointed, and to ask them, even in the course of the Debate tomorrow, to produce what is in my opinion, and in the opinion of so many of my hon. Friends on this side, and so many of our colleagues in Europe and I believe, in the minds of so many hon. Members opposite, the one hope of saving the world, which means the one hope of saving this country from the economic disasters which seem so near at hand, and of saving Europe and European civilisation? But first—and here I am sure I agree with some of the observations of hon. Members opposite—ought not this Government to declare what is its attitude to the United Nations organisation? Ought it not to be made clear that that organisation, for all practical purposes, is useless? It is useless to prevent war, or, if war should come, to subdue the aggressor. In one sense is it not worse than useless, in that it lulls people into a false sense of security? The very existence of the United Nations organisation makes people think there is an effective organisation to prevent war, and it blinds them to the need for more urgent remedies.

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I have always been a believer in the ultimate idea of world government, which was put so forcibly in one of his first speeches in this House by the Foreign Secretary, but before we get to world government at least a great body of nations, or a number of great nations, must deny the principle of sovereignty, that principle which was so foolishly maintained in the Atlantic Charter, and again in the Charter of the United Nations. That does not say that that ideal should be put away in the background; it should be kept clearly ahead. We should consider how most quickly it can be obtained, whether through a reformed United Nations organisation or, as some of us think, by an entirely new constitution dependent upon direct representation of the peoples of all countries.
I wish now to make a few remarks which may at first appear to be a digression, in reference to two countries, one of which has not been referred to in the Debate, and another which has—Spain and France. I do not know, because the Foreign Secretary did not say, whether he considers Spain as a police State, but we must recognise the importance of Spain, and the importance of bringing that great country back into the community of civilised democratic European nations. We must also realise that just as there can be no United States of Europe without Germany, so there could never be a United States of Europe paired with a modernised and civilised Africa if, lying athwart its lifeline, was a police, a Fascist, a Falangist or whatever State you like to call it. From my own observations, which may not be reliable—but I can only report the facts as I see them—in Spain at the present time there is no indication of the possibility of an internal uprising, or of the overthrow, through that, of the Franco Government.
The general conditions in Spain compare favourably with those, for example, in France and Italy at the present time, and not unfavourably with those in previous periods in Spain itself. But the strongest force which maintains the Franco Government in power is undoubtedly the fear throughout the Spanish people of Communism. If that fear could be removed, and if by the example of great nations in Europe, we could show to Spain the economic advantages she would
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derive by adopting a democratic constitution, and show at the same time that if she remained outside a democratic Europe her present dwindling resources would become less, there would be a possible chance of some change of government brought about in that country, not by external intervention, nor by force, but by consent.
France has been referred to with great force by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who said how important it was that we should walk in step with France. In relation to the ideal of European union, we by ourselves can do nothing. Nor can France alone create it. But together, if only we unite upon this principle, all the rest could, I believe, follow easily, if not quickly. When the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington referred to the great offer that was made in 1940—and there seemed to be some confusion between him and the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) as to who was the author of that idea—for union with France, and it was rejected by the craven and contemptible men then in power in France, it was said at the time, and I have since heard it repeated, that one of the greatest opportunities in history was thrown away by France. I do not agree with that. I believe that perhaps the great opportunity was cast away by the Coalition Government of that time, which did not maintain that idea and improve upon it as a post-war policy for the restoration of Europe. I believe that we may now perhaps be casting away a second and probably the last opportunity of the same kind. This Government may be losing one of the finest opportunities that has ever been presented to it of formulating a real constructive foreign policy to which all parties who have the essential freedoms of democracy and of European civilisation at heart could subscribe.
I would agree with the proposal of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison) that it would be advantageous to summon at once an Imperial Conference to find out to what extent the British Dominions would be prepared to join in an economic union with the countries of Europe. But that in itself is not enough. This Government could now, with France, declare that it was prepared immediately to discuss

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measures, such as a customs union, which is being discussed between Italy and France at the moment, a currency union, a dollar pool, joint development boards, and, not forthwith but as an immediate or at least ultimate object, the forming, as soon as possible, of a real political union without which there cannot be effective economic collaboration.
Here I would say a word in reference to what the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington said about the proposal for a United Socialist States of Europe. He said it was impossible to place any hope or reliance on such a scheme because the necessary conditions for it did not exist. That is quite correct, but it is no reason to sneer at those Members of the Socialist parties in Europe and in this country who first propounded that idea, long before European unity was thought of as a kind of military alliance by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and proposed by him at Fulton. It still remains an ideal to which all Socialists can with a clear conscience and wholeheartedly devote their work. It does not follow that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot propose a United Conservative States of Europe, but that might possiby be an even more remote ideal than the one covered by the other name.
What we Socialists have to decide is this—and I would like my hon. Friends on this side to consider it carefully. We must not, and I do not think many of us will, reject an idea simply because it has been twisted or turned or misused by any hon. Member opposite. We may think the proposals of the Leader of the Opposition for a union, and any he may make tomorrow, are really nothing more than a mere military alliance. If so we have nothing to do with them. But it does not follow that we should not advocate a real union based on different ideals, achieved by different methods, and for different objects. Whether it is called a Union of Democracies, United States of Europe or any other name does not matter. What we Socialists have to decide is which comes first, the hen or the egg? Can we have Socialism in this country, or any country in Europe without a degree of economic and political union?
On the other hand—[Interruption]—and the hon. Members opposite who seem so amused at what I am saying may not
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agree—because I am sure they will be incapable of understanding—no degree of effective political union in Europe is possible unless it is based on essential Socialist principles. No such union could long be maintained, or succeed, unless the degree of Socialist measures which its common government introduced and administered brought increased prosperity to all the peoples within that area.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: Is that the egg or the chicken?
Mr. Shaweross: Without some degree of economic or political union in Europe now or in the very near future, there will be no chickens and no eggs, even for hon. Members who might be able to afford to buy them at black market prices.
Major Tufton Beamish: May I ask one question?
Mr. Shaweross: I am not going to be interrupted. This is far too serious an occasion for time to be wasted on small debating points, especially of the kind which I know the hon. and gallant Member opposite is likely to raise.
Major Beamish: This is a very short point and very important. All I want to ask the hon. Member is that in the context of what he has said he used the word "Socialism." Does he mean "Socialism" or "Marxism," because there is a very big difference?
Mr. Shawcross: I mean precisely what I say. That is just the kind of interruption I thought the hon. and gallant Member opposite would make, and I refuse to give way any more, because this Debate, and the subject we are discussing, in my respectful opinion, is far too serious. Member after Member, and Members on the Front Bench on both sides of the House have pointed it out. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington said it would be impossible to exaggerate the seriousness of the position at the present time.
I would like, however, to say again, in answer to criticism from hon. Members opposite, or to inquiries, something about the so-called Third Force. Somebody on the other side of the House said he could not understand the Third Force and he had heard it called the "Third Weakness," and that it was all nonsense. I would like to say, and I have told my

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Socialist colleagues so in France, that it is a mistake to base a conception of European union on a Third Force. No permanent union, no great establishment, can ever be based upon momentary fear. That is perhaps why it was better in history that the offer made in 1940, which might have been accepted in the dire extremity of that moment, was not accepted, because it might have failed, and we might never have gone on to something greater and more permanent.
But this "Third Camp" as some prefer to call it, is a third influence, as I would prefer to call it, which may, if it is not too late, prevent the division of the world into two armed camps, which division is rapidly appearing, and which will inevitably lead to a third world war. If we think of Europe and Africa and the other territories envisaged as an economic unit, an economic entity, as the Foreign Secretary so clearly and so inspiringly advocated in his great speech—leading as I said, to his dreadful anti-climax—surely anybody, even those sitting on the back benches opposite, can see what a great power that will be, and the Communists in Soviet Russia and everywhere else will consider it is useless to try by their propaganda and all the other tricks and strategisms employed at the moment to try to break down European economy and make the Marshall Plan fail. For example, they would not withhold supplies or juggle with food for political ends. Therefore, the establishment of that Third Force, of European Union, would certainly be calculated to produce the result which was mentioned by one of my hon. Friends in the letter in the "Daily Herald" this morning which has been quoted.
The Prime Minister once said that Europe must federate or perish. The late Lord Baldwin, I believe, also remarked, some time in 1937 or thereabouts, that he often dreamt of the day when the United Kingdom and the British Dominions could join with Europe in one great political and economic unity. Our Foreign Secretary himself supported this idea many years ago when few others did. He carried a resolution, as I believe he has recorded in this House, before the Trades Union Congress in favour of the federation of Europe. In the United States of America the idea has widespread support on all sides and, it may be, for a variety of reasons. I would refer to one
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—that mentioned by Mr. Foster Dulles in a speech which he made a few days ago, when he said that it was a magnificent idea to build up an economic unity of the British Empire. It was also a magnificent idea for Great Britain to join with Europe to build a great economic unity; but to dither between the two and to do nothing was utterly base. That was his calculation, with which nobody can disagree.
I suggest that far more magnificent, and certainly at least worth trying, though it may prove to be immediately impossible at this time, is a union in which Great Britain and the British Dominions, and the States of Western Europe, the great territories in Africa, South-East Asia and elsewhere, all join. I say to the Prime Minister and the Government, "Be bold. Do not be frightened of the jeers and sneers of the little men opposite. Have the courage of your Socialist convictions."
Finally, I would like to say this, and I hope that this at least may secure some slight degree of approval from hon. Members opposite. It is often said, in relation to this situation, that the key to the restoration of Europe is the right solution of the German problem. That is only a half-truth. I believe that the heart of Europe is France and that if we recognise that we can repeat what France and Britain did, not in 1940, but in 1939. I believe that history will show that that, rather than 1940, was our greatest hour. What is not often remembered is that it was then we, and we alone, who stood up and declared war on Nazi Germany. All the other countries, great and small, America, Soviet Russia and all the rest of them, waited until they were struck. Then they fought in self-defence. It is true that France fell out later because her manhood was decimated in the first world war, but we with France stood up and fought to save civilisation in Europe. It is here in Western Europe that our civilisation was born, and only here in Western Europe can that civilisation die.
Therefore, I say most seriously, earnestly and urgently to this Government that they should make a declaration now to France that we are prepared to join with her immediately in a union and then, as soon as may be, to take the necessary steps to secure the greatest possible degree of economic and political unity in Europe. But, in making that

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declaration, the Government must make it equally plain that that is but one step, though a very necessary first step, towards the greater goal, which is government of the world by the peoples of the world.
9.51 p.m.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Shawcross), at the beginning of his speech, fell into an error which is not uncommon with hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House. He fell into the error of thinking that there were, in effect, two foreign policies, a Socialist foreign, policy and the other a Conservative one. In actual fact, there is only one foreign policy which any Foreign Secretary sitting on the Front Bench can pursue at any time, and that is a British foreign policy.
The Foreign Secretary today painted a pretty grim picture of the international situation. The horizon was obscured by clouds, and most, if not all, of the clouds were bigger than a man's hand. The story he told us was the story of conference after conference breaking up without any effective decision being taken, of delay upon delay occurring in the hope that there would be a change of heart. Over most of Central and South Eastern Europe during the last 18 months or two years, we have witnessed the human freedoms, as we understand them, first of all whittled down and then openly suppressed. The climax was reached last week, when we learned from the lips of M. Dimitrov that the judicial murder of the Bulgarian Opposition leader Petkov was due not so much to the crimes which it was alleged he had committed, but to the intervention which the Allies made on his behalf in the name of justice and humanity.
It is not only the human, rights clauses in the Peace Treaties which have been openly flouted. The position of the military clauses is also far from satisfactory. Reference has already been made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and others who have spoken in the Debate, to Article 12 of the Treaty with Bulgaria, which lays down that the Bulgar-Greek frontier zone should be demilitarised. We are far from satisfied that this has, in fact, been carried out. Reference has also been made to the size of the Bulgarian Army, which, according to the answer given by the Foreign Secretary just before the House
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rose before Christmas, was considerably in excess of the 55,000 permitted by the Peace Treaty. Although the Minister of State gave a somewhat lukewarm assurance yesterday at Question time about the withdrawal of Soviet occupational forces, I must confess that I myself would feel happier about that withdrawal if I were quite certain that a number of technicians had not been left behind and were today wearing uniforms of a rather different colour from those which they wore at this time last year.
If the period from September, 1939, to May, 1940, is called the period of the "phoney war," no doubt future historians will describe the period in which we are now living as the period of the "phoney" peace, but, for Greece, the war is far too real for the word "phoney" to be applicable. Eight years ago the village, or the town, of Konitza figured prominently in the public eye when the Greek army fought against Fascist Italy. I do not suppose that that grim village or town—call it what you will—has taken on a much more inviting appearance since that date. But today it is figuring no less prominently in another no less important battle for freedom and independence. If any country deserves freedom and independence, that country is Greece. It may well be the case—I hope it will be the case—that, by the spring, the Greek army will have succeeded in rounding up the guerilla forces, or in driving them across the frontiers.
If so, what will then be the position? Will the Greek army be demobilised? Will the men be able to go home to till the soil, to rebuild the bridges, the houses or the roads? Certainly not. All that will happen, so long as the present situation is allowed to continue, is that, in three days, three weeks, or three months, according to plan, fresh guerilla forces will appear replenished with new equipment from over the frontiers, and the whole business will start all over again. As I see it, the Greeks are virtually being obliged to undertake a kind of timeless test; they are being subjected to a remorseless wearing down of the will to resist.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington reminded us, there are half a million refugees from the North deprived of work and home. In these circumstances how can any Greek Government repair the country's

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shattered economy? I ask the House to consider how different the position might have been if the Balkan Commission had had the backing of an international force, which was envisaged as an integral part of the original set up of the Security Council. Nowhere has the weakness of the United Nations organisation been more clearly underlined than in Greece. Nowhere has the result of the misuse of the veto been more effective, and never before has any international commission had more obstacles placed in its path than those experienced by the Balkan Sub-Commission at the hands of the Soviet Union and her satellites in their investigations in Greece.
There is not the slightest advantage to be gained by refusing to face these facts. I believe that Greece is, above all, the test case for the authority of the United Nations. If that authority is indefinitely flouted, the result will be that the effective membership of the club—if I may put it like that—will fall off, just as the effective membership of any club falls off as soon as it fails to provide the facilities for which it was originally founded. I hope that tonight the Minister of State will give some indication to the House as to whether it is intended to carry out the practical suggestion put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low), namely, to seal Greece's frontiers. That is what has to be done. I very much doubt whether the Greek army is capable of carrying out this task because I think it would entail permanently mobilizing such a large army that it would place an almost impossible burden upon the Greek financial structure.
The second point to which I wish to invite the attention of the House is "to what extent have His Majesty's Government given a lead in consolidating that part of Europe which interprets freedom as we do"? My own view is that, up to the speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary this afternoon, they have given no lead at all. They have been pushed about by events. They have been living hitherto in a world of their own, in which Socialist Britain collects around herself all the good Socialists from all other countries, like some clucking hen, to form a bulwark against the threat of Communism on the one side or the capitalist menace on the other; and the picture which we have been invited to
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admire is a picture of the sun rising red and menacing in the East and setting in the dark, reactionary haze of the capitalist West, with great Britain basking in the rationed warmth of a rather watery sun in the middle of the day.
I note in passing that by some curious coincidence—it is, of course, only a coincidence—His Majesty's Government did not really recognise the menace from Communism until at least a section of the trade unions was to some extent threatened from the Communists quarters. This idea that the Socialist parties all over Europe form an effective bulwark against Communism is not borne out by the facts. What happened in France? In France, strikes brought down the Ramadier Government largely because the French Socialists took such a long time to make up their minds whether or not to make a clean break with the Communists. In Italy, we see the majority Socialist Party under Nenni voting with one voice against a moderate Government whose chief crime, apparently, is support of the Marshall Plan.
Still less can it be substantiated that the Socialist parties all over Europe have given any lead either in supporting the Marshall Plan or as a bulwark against the new-found dictatorship from Moscow. During the last year there have been three international Socialist Conferences—the first at Zurich, the second at Antwerp and the third not very long ago in London. These conferences gave no lead at all. They simply revealed the division between the Socialists from the Western group and the Socialists from the Eastern group, although I believe at the London Conference the Western group did suggest that at some future date, in March I think, an international Socialist Conference should be called to discuss the Marshall Plan. If this is the new dynamic policy which the Lord President of the Council announced the other day, I can only say that the dynamite must be at the end of a very long fuse.
In my view, it is equally unwise to pretend that we are the bridge between rival ideologies, holding the balance. We can only hold the balance between two equal weights if we have our shoulders muscled up and ready to take the strain. In any case, a bridge is apt to be trampled on and crossed by a great many vehicles and feet. We are heavily mort-

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gaged to one of the weights which we are said to hold in the balance. We derive a greater part of the means by which we feed from that weight. Further, we are certainly not half way—or I hope we are not—between the freedom of conscience as enjoyed in the United States and the very negation of that freedom as practised behind the iron curtain.
The truth is that British foreign policy must inevitably be a long-term and not a short-term policy and, for that very reason, the sooner we recover our own economic strength the sooner we can exercise once more our rightful position as the leading Power in Europe. Although the Foreign Secretary's heart is unquestionably in the right place, the fact remains that he can only play the cards that are dealt to him by his colleagues and, of course, the cards are dealt to him face upwards on the table and, I suppose, left-handed. Which of these colleagues deals the hand which he can play at the Conferences where he represents His Majesty's Government and, indeed, Britain in the councils of the nations? There are a number of them. There is the Minister of Supply; there is the Minister of Fuel and Power; above all, there is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As I said—and the right hon. Gentleman will be the first to recognise it—hitherto the hand he has been dealt has contained no aces, certainly no jokers and very few high cards. All over Europe and all over the Near East our friends are looking to us for a lead. They believe that Western civilisation—which incidentally is Christian civilisation—can be saved if Great Britain and America act in co-operation while there is still time.
I recently had the opportunity of paying a visit to Turkey with a Parliamentary delegation composed of hon. Members from all parts of the House. The Turks expressed this same view. Although their attitude towards this country is to some extent coloured by events in Palestine—because while they do not wish to under-estimate our difficulties with the Jews, they cannot participate in a policy which is inimical to the Arab States—they showed an intense anxiety that we should speedily emerge from our economic difficulties in a healthy state in order to fulfil our obligations as a world Power. Being the
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realists that they are, they also appreciate that we can fulfil our obligations as a world Power only if we are really strong.
Mr. Platts-Mils: I thought the hon. Member favoured a Christian civilisation.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: It is therefore the responsibility of His Majesty's Government to prove to the world that the citadel of democracy and of freedom still lies within the shores of these Islands, and that we are not unmindful of the responsibility for its safe-keeping.
10.7 p.m.
The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): I should be less than grateful if I did not admit that the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Mott-Radclyffe) is normally understanding and generous in questioning me; but I feel that I have to say on behalf of the Government that it ill becomes any Member of His Majesty's Opposition to get up and tell this Government that we have no foreign policy and that we have been pushed around by events. The hon. Gentleman agreed that our position was greatly dictated by the cards dealt to the Foreign Secretary. Not all the cards were dealt to him by his colleagues. Many of the cards with which we had to contend were cards bequeathed to us by that previous Government which led us into war.
Mr. Eden: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by that? The Coalition Government?
Mr. McNeil: No, I mean the Government which did lead us into war—the Conservative Government.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: Is the right hon. Gentleman talking about the Government of which the Foreign Secretary was a member as Minister of Labour?
Mr. McNeil: No, indeed I am not. I am talking about the Conservative Government which led us into this war from which we have just escaped.
Mr. Eden: Absolute nonsense.
Mr. McNeil: I cannot imagine what the debate is about. That is beyond argument. While I am usually prepared to be as noncontroversial as possible on this subject, if the Opposition want to challenge a fight upon this subject they can have it at any time.
Mr. Harold Davies: It is about time.
Mr. McNeil: Many of the difficulties with which His Majesty's Government are contending are difficulties which this country need not have had if the Governments before this had been of a different character.
Mr. R. A. Butler: If the right hon. Gentleman's own party had faced up to the situation before the last war and voted for the re-armament programme, they would now be in a greatly stronger position.
Mr. McNeil: My party was never ambiguous upon that subject.
Captain Crookshank: The Minister of State is new here.
Mr. McNeil: I did not need to be here to follow the conduct of this House, or to understand the principles or the motivation of my party, and upon that subject we can stand examination and debate at any time.
Mr. Butler: Let us have the debate then.
Mr. McNeil: It is not true that His Majesty's Government or the Foreign Secretary have allowed events to push them around. Whenever opportunity has offered itself, this Government and my right hon. Friend have seized the initiative. I need not labour the point that the Paris Conference was convened on the joint initiative of M. Bidault and my right hon. Friend; I need not labour the point that the proposals offered by Mr. Marshall have been made flesh from that initiative. I should also like to add that, although there may have been little publicity since the Paris Conference was convened, His Majesty's Government have played their part in pushing forward the consequences of that Conference.
The right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) asked me a number of questions in that connection. He asked, first, whether we were in close contact with the Benelux countries in connection with our commercial relationships. The answer is that we are in close and frequent contact with both the Belgian and Dutch Governments on this subject. We have just had a Belgian delegation here in London, and we are about to resume conversations with a Dutch trade and finance delegation; while, in addition, as
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I understand it, these two Governments have kept in close touch with each other on this subject and in their relationships to us. Several hon. Members referred to the Benelux arrangement. Like all of us, they welcomed it; but it is proper that we should not expect too much, nor overestimate exactly what the arrangement is.
Mr. K. Lindsay: It is not yet in force.
Mr. McNeil: It has come into force in the sense that it is a tariff union. More may come of it, but that is all it is at the present moment. The right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington also asked me about the French-Italian conversations on a possible customs union, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Shawcross). It is true that those two Governments have had delegations discussing this subject in, I think, Rome; and it is also true, as I understand it, that the delegations have returned to their respective Governments interim reports of a generally favourable character. We have not been associated bilaterally in any discussions on customs unions because, as the House will understand, at the Paris Conference it was decided to set up a study group to deal with the subject of a European customs union. Some meetings have already taken place, at which I understand our delegation has played a full part. The study group is to reassemble in Brussels early in February, but more than that I cannot say at this stage because their work is incomplete.
The right hon. Member and the hon. Member for Windsor asked me various questions about treaty implementation. I quite agree that I have not been able to give very precise answers in reply to Questions. Today, I was asked about the Danube Conference, and about the demilitarised zones of the Bulgarian frontier. Also, various references were made to the human rights clauses. With the permission of the House, I would seek to escape from making any decisive statements on implementation just now. I am not in a position to do so, and the subject is delicate.
When we secured these clauses, we were not looking for political victories. By these clauses we sought to benefit the people of the various countries affected by them. The question of their implementation is of great delicacy. I have been trying to group together the various clauses in the three treaties which require

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implementation, with the Danube and human rights clauses as examples. What we would, of course, hope is that the signatories would honourably offer to implement these clauses, but if this is lacking, we must still make our first concern the people whom we sought to benefit by them. We have, therefore, been giving considerable thought to the best method of approach to the whole question, and our studies are well advanced. I do not want to promise too much from the studies, and I would prefer to leave it by saying that when these studies are completed, my right hon. Friend will report to the House upon the broad question of implementation.
There is one other category about which I have had specific questions put, and that is the clause governing the military strengths. We have already given answers to the House covering the forces of Roumania, Bulgaria and Hungary, respectively. These are estimates, based on the best information available. The Hungarian and Roumanian figures are, in our judgment, approximately in conformity with the limits laid down in the respective treaties. The Bulgarian figures, however, I have to admit are unsatisfactory, particularly in relation to the irregular forces. It is true that under the treaty there are rights to verify these figures, but, in the terms of the general answer I have given about implementation, the House will, perhaps, wait to hear my right hon. Friend when we have completed our studies, because I cannot truthfully give an answer which will ad vance the subject at this point.
Mr. Eden: This is really a very important matter, namely, the fulfilment of these treaties. I do not want to press the right hon. Gentleman tonight, but can we be given an indication whether at some time an account of the Government's views and what they propose to do will be given?
Mr. McNeil: I thought that I had already indicated that. I am not seeking to escape an answer, but asking to be excused from giving an answer which would be incomplete, or might prejudice or jeopardise any possible action we can take. I promise that my right hon. Friend will report to the House when we have something more definite and final to say on this subject.
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In addition to the broad outline of the German situation which was given by my right hon. Friend, I have been asked several questions, all of which are important. Anxiety was expressed by the right hon. Gentleman on the fact that France has not been too closely associated in the development of the Frankfurt Agreement. It is quite plain that no one will ever find my right hon. Friend, or this Government, lacking in an understanding of the legitimate French anxieties on all aspects of German policy. In the case of the Frankfurt Agreement, this was an arrangement which had to be made quickly in order to try to improve the emergency conditions inside Germany. The Agreement was primarily economic and administrative in character, and was certainly not meant as a major political decision. However, the House should know that, while I agree that in this instance there has been complaint from Paris, there is real hope that we shall soon reach a type of agreement which will make criticism of this kind impossible in future. We have fixed a tripartite meeting between the United States, the French and ourselves. It is to be held in London about the middle of next month, and only the exact date has still to be fixed. We all hope that from this meeting may emerge a fuller and wider partnership, not only in relation to Germany.
In relation to Germany, it has also been urged that we must give the Ruhr a chance to live. That, of course, has been the primary objective in our policy from the beginning. It has also been said—and I know that here I shall have wholehearted support from the Government Benches—that we ought to consider the possibility of an international regime for the Ruhr. There are many difficulties here, mainly of an operative kind, but the House can be assured that it is an idea to which my right hon. Friend is sympathetic and one which will be given the fullest examination by His Majesty's Government.
It was also said that production is being impaired, first, by our dismantling programme, and, secondly, by currency difficulties. I would not accept—and the authorities would not accept—the suggestion that we can double production just by tackling these two points; but let me deal with them. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that no dismantling is

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permitted, except of plant which is surplus to the permitted global potential of the joint zone. Indeed, I can go further than that and assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is much more plant available than there is manpower, material and coal to operate it.
Sir P. Macdonald: Has the final list been settled of the plant that is definitely to be removed or dismantled, because until that list is finalised there will be uncertainty in the minds of many as to the position? By this time, the list should be ready. It should be a final list, and they should be told exactly the position.
Mr. McNeil: The list has not been settled.
Sir P. Macdonald: Why not?
Mr. McNeil: Because a great deal of work has had to be done on it, but it will be, in the very near future, completed. However, I would not suggest for a second, and I do not think that it will be contended, while I admit that there has been this uncertainty, that that has been the major cause of retarding production. I know that the right hon. Gentleman very carefully protected himself by not offering his opinion.
Mr. Eden: I did not offer my opinion because I did not know.
Mr. McNeil: On currency, however, I agree with the best advice available to us, that this is a much more important factor, operating much more widely. The present bad currency affects the whole economic life of the country, leading, among other things, to hoarding, black marketeering and impairment of production. Hitherto, all our efforts to deal with this problem on a quadripartite basis have met with failure. It is our considered view that it is impossible to accept continued postponement of reform which is fundamental to the whole German economy. There is a plan before the Control Council in Berlin, and I believe it is due to be dealt with on 30th January. As a result of these discussions on the currency reform plan we will know where we stand, and the way will be cleared for the urgent decisions which the House can be assured we will take.
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The other important factor of production is food. Today the Economic Council at Frankfurt has been discussing this subject. An announcement on the ration scale for the period beginning 2nd February will be made very shortly, and I think will show an improvement. Our general experience is that production, particularly in heavy industries like coal, moves almost exactly in ratio to the food. Since the Debate started I have been told on the telephone that the Germans themselves have accepted a very improved principle upon which they are to be congratulated, and that is, they are going to impose a system of different scales of rations for the urban areas of Hamburg and the Ruhr and for the country areas where the people have better access to the food. The industrial areas will be guaranteed a higher scale and I do not know exactly what the difference will be. It may be 100 or 150 calories lower in the country areas, where we can expect the people to have access to some kind of indigenous food. This will not relieve the two Governments from the efforts that are being made just now to improve the imported food position.
Mr. Stokes: It sounds pretty useless to me.
Mr. McNeil: I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). We all know that regulations are laid down, but in a country area where food is grown people are bound to retain some of it. It is the Germans themselves who accepted this principle.
It might be appropriate here to make a passing reference to the "M" Plan, and to say that my right hon. Friend, the Under-Secretary and myself have been considering, so as to meet the very real interest in this matter, placing a photostatic copy of this document in the Library, and subject to the proviso that there is no real security risk we will do so.
The hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) launched a full-scale attack against the Marshall Plan, in which he was supported by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher). In all these attacks there is just one simple question which I should like to put to the attackers and that is Do they say without reservation that they do not want to share in the benefits of the Marshall proposals at all? Will they say that in Fifeshire

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and Gateshead before their constituents? The picture that the hon. Member for West Fife drew of some militant American bashing his way into the various capitals of Europe and forcing the people to accept dollar credits, dollar food, dollar tobacco and dollar petrol is, of course, quite ludicrous.
Whatever conditions may be attached—and allegations about some of the conditions are quite without foundation—whatever conditions may eventually be attached, no one is compelled to come into the scheme or accept its aim. I should, however, like to make reference to the condition to which the hon. Member for Gateshead alluded. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it plain that the suggestion that the cut in shipbuilding is being imposed as part of the Marshall aid plan is quite without foundation and the hon. Member for Gateshead is much too intelligent to have missed that reply or to be at all deceived as to how the suggestion arose. It came from the Harriman Committee and is not a condition attached to the Marshal Plan.
Mr. Zilliacus: May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman? I never suggested that. I pointed out that the Marshall Plan introduced the proposal that we should cut shipbuilding.
Mr. McNeil: Well, indeed it does not; but, at any rate, so long as it is plain in the hon. Gentleman's mind that the Government's activity in this respect is not being dictated from abroad, then that is satisfactory, but it is very difficult to understand why he should drag this point into his speech.
Mr. Zilliacus: Because it is in the Marshall Plan.
Mr. McNeil: Another point put to me by the hon. Member for Gateshead was about the R.A.F. personnel we are retaining in Greece. There was here the inference that this was a fighting unit being kept in use at the dictates of Washington. That was quite plainly the inference given in the context of the hon. Gentleman's long argument. The truth is, of course, that this is not a fighting unit at all. Outside our training Mission we have no R.A.F. men of that character in Greece. This is a communications squadron and it is the only dependable method of communications which we have between
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Athens and Salonika. It has no other function, and I make that plain on behalf of the Government.
Mr. Zilliacus: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why the squadron's leave to go home was cancelled? Why were plans put through to go home and suddenly cancelled as they were having a farewell dinner?
Mr. McNeil: I expect the reply—but I do not offer this officially—is the obvious one that the relief had not come through.
Mr. Baird: Why not bring them all home?
Mr. McNeil: They are not fighting men. The hon. Member for Gateshead also lashed himself into a fury about the United Nations Charter and the United Nations machinery. He asked whether we were prepared to base our policy on this, and he inferred that we should do so because the Soviet so based their foreign policy. But it is very relevant to remind the House here that this is precisely a place where the Soviet Government and where three associated Governments of the Soviet have refused to accept the ruling of the United Nations at all.
Again, I am certain that the hon. Gentleman is such a good and convinced student of international literature, which for long enough was his professional job, that he has read the two reports from the United Nations Commission on this subject. But he makes no reference to the fact that these two reports, from independently appointed people, made to the Committee and to the Assembly of the United Nations and debated most fully—and they have not been refuted—showed that, wherever the rebels did come from, they were receiving assistance from outside the borders of Greece. If United Nations policy is to be applied in Greece—and His Majesty's Government have always supported application of its policy in Greece and elsewhere—then all the signatories to the Charter, or members of the organisation, should at this moment be helping the servants of the United Nations in Greece. If those servants had such assistance, it would be quite idle to pretend that their job would be easily discharged: it would be as nonsensical as to pretend that there are two clear black and white camps in Greece, a pretence which the Government has never attempted.

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But if the servants of the United Nations had such assistance their job would, for the first time, have been advanced in a systematic fashion, and a degree of peace and security would have been afforded to those 500,000 refugees to whom the hon. Gentleman referred.
The great weakness of the hon. Gentleman's speech was that he started with a very great peroration. It was a most excellent peroration with which he began. He told us that if we were to perfect our foreign policy, then we should seek an understanding with the Soviet administration. He then went on to occupy the rest of his time illustrating a dispute between a gentleman called Mr. X and a journalist called Mr. Walter Lippman; and before he had answered the question which he had addressed to the House in his peroration, either he exhausted himself, or perhaps he exhausted the patience of the Chair. At any rate, we did not have the question answered.
If the hon. Gentleman is going to further his subject, and if he is going to help His Majesty's Government with its difficulties, then that is the question which must be answered—"how can the relationships, not only between the Soviet Government and this Government, but between the Soviet and almost all other elected and representative Governments in the world, be improved?" That is the question which the House has been asking itself in various ways and in various areas—in Germany, in France, in Italy, in Greece—this afternoon. That is undoubtedly the question which ordinary men and women throughout the length and breadth of Europe are asking themselves this evening, and every evening.
What is the Soviet foreign policy? What is their purpose with us? What kind of people do they consider that we are? How do they interpret the statements of our policy, and the actions we offer in corroboration of those statements? For example, are we warmongers? I have not dealt at any length with United Nations proceedings because other questions were raised; but I would not agree with the suggestion which has been made, that the United Nations has been completely unsuccessful. It is a confusion of ideas to think that it was ever offered as a method of bringing a dispute between two great Powers to an end. In
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a limited way the United Nations has had its successes, the latest being Indonesia. It had one in Persia. When the hon. Member for West Fife tells us that the Soviet Government never seeks to exploit or develop, he might tell us what Soviet forces were doing in Persia. Not that I necessarily would think that was a criticism of the Soviet Government. But there is a limited range of United Nations successes. If Governments would proceed as I hope and believe our own Government does, and admit the comparative weakness of this young organisation instead of heaping huge tasks upon it, we might see further successes.
But, Sir, at Lake Success, from the first day almost to the last, we found ourselves pursued with the cry that the United States and ourselves were warmongers, and this cry is still pursued in the Soviet Press. There may be some good internal reasons for such a gross misapplication of words, but in the outside world there can be no understanding of them. Anybody can tell this tale. What are the facts? There can be no comparison between the aggressive potentialities of this country and those of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union has under arms just now some four million men—not an inconsiderable number as one hon. Member indicated—and considerable numbers are distributed throughout Central and Eastern Europe. The air force has some half-million men manning some fifty thousand aircraft, and the navy with about the same number of men, has about two hundred submarines.
Contrast these figures with the figures for the United Kingdom. Our Armed Forces, which reached a peak of about four and a half million during the war, have been reduced, as the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence have shown, to about one million. The Royal Navy, which totalled some eight hundred thousand personnel in war time, numbers today about one hundred and fifty thousand. The Army, by a rapid process of demobilisation, has discharged and released about three million men since 1945 and is now about half a million strong. The Royal Air Force has about two hundred and fifty thousand. If facts like these are to be made available to all people, then there can be no charge that we are warmongers, or monopolistic or Capitalistic or imperialistic exploiters,

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as we have been told that we are during tonight's discussion.
I am not suggesting that we are at the stage of competitive rearmament. In New York we have had repeated obstruction from the Soviet delegations. The delegations of France and the United States and, I am glad to say, of Great Britain, have sought to find a way round it, and there is still a hope that we may keep this work alive. What limited arrangements, in a military sense, we make, are quite clearly shown to be defensive arrangements of the most unambitious and frugal kind, of a completely nonthreatening nature; but, although, as I have said, we are not in any danger of competitive rearmament at the moment, it is, nevertheless, understandable that the people of the Western world, which has twice been so savagely battered and impoverished for taking the burden of the assault of tyranny, should feel anxiety at the tension of the present time. But we are still free from an armaments race. It is healthy that there is this anxiety, because, twice in this century, we have drifted into war because the constitution of a democratic people makes it almost impossible for them to start a defensive war. Their history and feelings make them shrink, not in terror, but in horror, from the barbarities we normally associate with war. So, Mr. Speaker, this is a matter, not for complaint but for satisfaction, to discern the anxiety which our peoples throughout the Western world are displaying about the deterioration in international relationships.
In this situation what they most want, and what must be primarily applied to remedy this situation, is a clarification of Soviet policy and Soviet intentions outside their own borders. No study of speeches, no study of Communist doctrine, no private conversations, apparently, can be taken at their face value when we are up against this problem. None of them give us any indication of Soviet policy. They are conflicting. They are inconsistent. By quotations one could show inconsistency and contradiction again and again. One of my hon. Friends referred to the report by Mr. Elliott Roosevelt of his interview with Generalissimo Stalin on 21st December, 1946. I will not bore the House with it, since Members have already heard it before, but confine myself to repeating Stalin's concluding words. Stalin said
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"I do not doubt that the possibilities of peaceful collaboration will not only not decrease, but may even increase."
Sir, you can put against that statement dozens saying almost exactly the opposite.
Mr. Cocks: The quotation I made was that he said he would like to have another meeting of the Big Three, and that has not been done.
Mr. McNeil: Yes, but I was referring to the fact that Mr. Elliott Roosevelt had been given an interview and that Generalissimo Stalin had declared, as other representatives of his Government have declared, that there was no conflict necessarily arising from the differing ideologies of the countries. But on the other side, as I have already said, one can find quotations saying exactly the opposite. Generalissimo Stalin again and again tells us, as we in this party probably know, that his direction, deduction and methods of thinking are based on Lenin and his teaching. In 1924, and again a year before the war, and after the signing of the German treaty, and in another recent declaration after the establishment of the Cominform, Stalin insisted that in that context:
"We are living not merely in one state hut in a system of states, and the existence of the Soviet Republics side by side with imperialistic States for a long time is unthinkable. One or the other must triumph in the end. Before that end intervenes a series of frightful collisions between the Soviet Union and the bourgeois States will be inevitable."
One can find further contradictions in statements by Mr. Molotov and statements by Mr. Vyshinski. But none of these really worry me—not even the inconsistencies between the teaching of Lenin and the speeches of Generalissimo Stalin. What worries everyone is the inconsistencies between Generalissimo Stalin and Generalissimo Stalin. As my right hon. Friend said, probably there will be an outcry, another blare of propaganda following his statement, and this Debate. But the outcome of this Debate, this association upon which we are entering, has not been built up by anyone else except Generalissimo Stalin. He is the architect of any coalition which forms against him; and it is difficult to see where the coalition will end, unless there is an explanation, not only in words but in deeds, as to which of the two declared Soviet policies the present Soviet administration is following out.

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I was very tempted to go back and quote from the Atlantic Charter, Articles 3, 4 and 5, where the rights of governments, where the rights particularly of small peoples, where sovereignty, where territorial integrity, are all guaranteed by this country and also by Generalissimo Stalin. That statement is still the policy of His Majesty's Government. Nothing will cause us to deviate from it, but of course, our task would be made much easier, and all over the world hopes would be raised, and there would be a new turn of effort, a new development would be possible, if we knew that the Soviet Government's policy was still the same.
Mr. Gallacher: Would the right hon. Gentleman excuse me? Does he want to impress on me and this House, and the people generally, that he gets on all right with the Tory capitalists of America, but he cannot get on with the Socialists of the Socialist Union?
Mr. McNeil: I do not want to impress the hon. Gentleman with that at all. It is the other thing which I want to impress on him. We cannot do it; we try to do it everywhere. I noticed that the "Daily Worker" said a fortnight ago that their correspondent looking over the Gallery had never seen the Attorney-General, myself or any other member of the British Delegation to the United Nations conferring with the Soviet Delegation, but always with the American. That is not true. I had a fierce letter chiding me for a photograph showing me talking and smiling with Mr. Vyshinski. We were available any time they wanted us. We made repeated approaches to them, and there is nothing we want more than to get on with them. But what is social affability if we still do not know the policy?
No one pretends that the policy of the right hon. Gentleman is the best policy. P is not the policy we would have chosen. We were chided for not having made sooner the decision on our future policy, and for not having started sooner on this work of building up a Western association. It is true we took risks, but this Government will always be prepared to take the risks for peace that one would take for war provided that we do not barter our liberties or betray our principles. We have delayed, and we would
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still delay if we could get understanding and clarity.
The hon. gentleman the Member for Widnes (Mr. Shawcross) complained about the smallness of our action. That is a dangerous and wrong way to look at it. It is a complex matter, developing these associations, and it will be better, in the words of the familiar cliche, to "build soundly by building slowly" and not on too little. We are not resting simply on this one political step. The consequence of the Paris Conference and the consequences of the Marshall aid, if and when it does come, will be manifold, and we are planning already for some of them.
Much of the association will not rest exclusively upon the physical understandings or the political understandings on the quid pro quo which we may expect inside a treaty or commercial arrangements which will develop. Much of the understanding will develop on the plane to which my right hon. Friend alluded, on the plane to which the Prime Minister in his broadcast alluded when he said that we had a philosophy in our own right. It is this distinctive Western European characteristic, discernible in our laws, in our governments, in our churches, in our social institutions, which gives hope that there can be a successful attempt to build an association which will circumvent the political difficulties frequently experienced in treaty-making and the commercial difficulties everyone meets whenever he considers the economic systems of countries that were not designed to be complementary.
There is a great area of the world where our common characteristics are accepted as the hallmark of trust and the platform upon which understanding can be developed. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman who sneered at the United States will look at the document presented by Congress and see there the admission that the Socialist parties of Western Europe are the parties which are distinguished for their concentration upon the rights of the individual and their democratic practices. I hope everyone will remember that in each of the territories of our Commonwealth from their foundations these same ideas are found, rich and profound, and I believe that it is this spiritual and cultural basis which makes the beginning which we have announced today more important than anyone dreams. Perhaps this is a time when very small events

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throw a long shadow. That can be true of the good events as well as of the bad events.
Mr. Bowles: Might I ask a question about my right hon Friend's statement about steel in the Marshall Plan? I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after he made a statement about cuts in steel, was particularly questioned on the cuts affecting shipbuilding. He was asked by a journalist whether they were in conformity with the Marshall Plan and he did not think they were, thereby implying that there were some conditions dealing with shipping so far as steel is concerned.
Mr. McNeil: The Chancellor of the Exchequer said plainly that the activities of the Government were quite uninfluenced by those conditions. In any case, we are not yet at the stage where there are actual conditions.
It being Eleven o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed without Question put.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS.
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section r of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Whitchurch (Salop), a copy of which Order was presented on 20th January, be approved."
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section r of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Welwyn Garden City, a copy of which Order was presented on 10th January, be approved."
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section r of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of New Hunstanton, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th January, be approved."
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section r of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Melton Mowbray, a copy of which Order was presented on 10th January, be approved."
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section r of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Haltemprice, a copy of which Order was presented on 10th January, be approved."
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  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section r of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Frome, a copy of which Order was presented on 10th January, be approved."—[Mr. Younger.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Popplewell.]
11.2 p.m.
Major Tufton Beamish: The Minister of State has added nothing constructive to the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary and he failed to answer any of the important questions asked him from this side of the House. Some extremely important questions were put to the Foreign Secretary by my hon. Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) about Greece. But these questions were practically ignored. The least satisfactory part of the right hon. Gentleman's statement referred to the Peace Treaties with the ex-enemy countries in Eastern Europe. I would like to say a few words about that.
The Minister of State said he would "seek to escape from any decisive statement" on the peace treaty implementation, and went on to say that everything was being carefully studied. That is not nearly good enough. Taking the military classes first, we were told before the Christmas Adjournment that the Bulgarian armed forces were about three times the size laid down as the maximum in the Peace Treaty for that country and the Foreign Secretary agreed that that discloses an extremely grave state of affairs. Under Article 12 of the Treaty the zone on the Macedonian border should be demilitarized in respect of certain fixed equipment. That zone has never been inspected by the British authorities although we have a right and a duty under the Treaty to do so. I would ask the Government why that zone has not been inspected, and is it not doubly important that we should take advantage of our rights under the Treaty to inspect that zone in view of the fact that Bulgaria has refused to allow the United Nations committee of inquiry to go to the country. I should have thought that the Bulgarian refusal to allow the United Nations committee to investigate was the complete answer to what is going on in that area.

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I can only describe our failure to take advantage of our rights as definite appeasement. It was only yesterday that the question of the armed forces in Roumania and Bulgaria was raised. Today, the Minister of State said that these armed forces were approximately in conformity with the maximum size laid down in the Peace Treaties, but he did not mention what arose in a reply to a question that in the case of neither of these countries were we in possession of information regarding the strength and armament of the police and secret police forces.
It is well known—and I drew attention to it yesterday—that in these Communist-dominated countries these secret police forces are usually as big as and better armed than the army itself. That is so in Poland and in Yugoslavia, concerning which I have the figures and I suggest most strongly to the Foreign Secretary that it is most misleading to this House and to the country to gloss over this extremely important aspect of the strength of the armed forces in those countries. Why have these ex-enemy countries refused to give us information? I think I know the answer to that question. I think we will be told that Madame Pauker, the Foreign Secretary of Roumania, will not disclose this information to us because of the wording of the Peace Treaty. She can claim, looking through a legal loophole, that as all three occupying Powers do not seek this information there is no reason to give it. That is my guess. The fact that the Soviet Union already knows at least as much about the armed forces strength as Madame Pauker does herself will not be a very forceful argument. The Minister of State yesterday disgusted me when I raised this question of a secret police force with reference to Hungary when he said that
"if there are such."—-[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st January, 1948; Vol. 446, c. 194.]
he did not know the strength. I think that I am mistaken—I think that it was with reference to Roumania, but it is immaterial. Roumania and Hungary are both police States on the Communist model and they are both running secret police forces; and he has no right to mislead us in that way. Yet another example of what I can only call appeasement was with reference to another Question yester-
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day when the Government were asked whether the Soviet Union had complied with their obligation to withdraw their armed forces from Bulgaria, and only to maintain such armed forces in Roumania and Hungary as were required to protect their lines of communication; and the Government quoted as their source of information a report received from Russian sources. It seems to me a most extraordinary state of affairs that the Minister was not able to inform us from British sources, and that is the information to which we all look forward.
I believe that one essential of British foreign policy is that it should be British or national in its outlook. This has been said several times and I propose to expand this particular theme. If our foreign policy is conducted on party lines one grave result which must spring from that is a serious upheaval in our international relations whenever there is a change of Government. That must be obvious even to the thickest head opposite. The reason why the Conservative Party has given such loyal support to the Government's foreign policy during these two and a half years springs, I believe, from the importance of British foreign policy being British, but I believe we have been over-zealous in supporting the Foreign Secretary against the stabs in the back he has received from his own so called supporters. A united front is all very well provided it is facing the enemy.
My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Mr. Mott-Radclyffe) referred at some length to this question of international Socialism and the United Socialist States of Europe about which we have heard quite a lot today from the benches opposite and my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), if I have got his words right I think I have—said it would be utterly wrong to base plans for a united Europe on the assumption that one particular faith will prevail. But my right hon. Friend was mistaken in thinking the Foreign Secretary was not doing this very thing.
I propose to deal with the dangers and fallacies of a specifically Socialist foreign policy and also with the cross currents and fears and doubts which exist at the present moment inside the Socialist Party. Does a specifically Socialist foreign policy exist? There is a mass of evidence to prove that

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it does and I have taken some trouble to search into it. I will quote, first, from Chapter IV of the Labour Party Year Book, 1946–7, "International Socialism," a few brief extracts. In reading these extracts I would remind the House that the Chairman of the Labour Party is the Secretary of State for War and therefore it is no good anybody telling me that what is contained in this chapter does not affect our foreign policy.
"…. in 1923 the democratic socialist parties of the world formed separately the Labour and Socialist International."
Later on:
"…. resolutions suffered from vagueness and equivocation."
"…. the spread of fascism robbed the L.S.I. of one member after another, and the outbreak of war in 1939 found it powerless to do anything but transfer some of its funds and records to places of safety."
And later:
"So in the absence of other initiative, the Labour Party called all socialist parties together at Clacton in May, 1946, to discuss the form of future action ….
The Labour Party sent four Cabinet Ministers—Hugh Dalton, Philip Noel-Baker, Emanuel Shinwell and Aneurin Bevan—as well as its Chairman, Harold Laski.
…. the magnificent victory of the British Labour Party, and its steady record of achievement during the last year, has been a permanent inspiration to the whole of the world."
The whole of this chapter is a perfect exposé of the weakness and futility of International Socialism as a force in any way capable of weighing down the democratic scales against either Fascism or Communism. There is one statement in here with which I entirely agree, and that is on Page 308:
"But when a Party becomes a Government it becomes responsible no longer simply to its own members, but to the country as a whole."
I heartily agree with that, though I profoundly disagree with most of the rest of the chapter. One last extract:
"The survival (of The Central and East European Parties) depends not only on their own willingness to co-operate sincerely with Russia and the Communists, but on Anglo-Soviet friendship."
I now read in the newspapers that, following the failure of the Socialist International conferences in Antwerp and Zurich, the Labour Party, under the chairmanship of the Secretary of State for War, has decided to summon a conference of Socialist parties—I emphasise
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the word "Socialist"—of the Marshall Plan countries in London in March. Has that the approval of the Prime Minister? I hope that when he speaks tomorrow he will say whether that is or is not so. We are entitled to know.
I pass now to some further enlightening documents:
"Foreign Policy: The Labour Party's Dilemma"—
"dilemma" is the right word—
"by Leonard Woolf, with a critical comment by W. N. Ewer. Foreword by Harold Laski."
Leonard Woolf is chairman of the Fabian International Bureau and was for many years secretary and later chairman of the Labour Party's Advisory Committee on International Questions. He has written, among other books, a book called, "Quack, Quack." Mr. Ewer is the well-known and much respected diplomatic correspondent of the "Daily Herald." Again, in case I may be accused of putting this up unfairly, may I point out that the Fabian International Bureau has on its advisory committee the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and the right hon. Gentleman who is Minister of National Insurance. So that gives it a stamp of Government authority.
This is a most amazing document. It contains the fantastic, and in my opinion un-British, theories of its main author, Mr. Leonard Woolf, which make a curious comparison with the comparatively sound British common sense of Mr. Ewer. On Page 8 I read—and these words are part of my main theme:
"the second fundamental of British Socialist foreign policy is that our foreign policy should, whenever and wherever possible, encourage and protect Socialism abroad."
From the foreword, by Mr. Laski, a very revealing one, I will only read this:
"It is the committee's hope that out of of the discussion it arouses"—
that is, this pamphlet—
"we can go on to the next stage, and that we can find there agreed criteria of action which will help to clarify the present controversies and doubts within the British Socialist movement."
May I be forgiven for saying, "What a hope."

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Next there is "Approach to Foreign Policy," published by Transport House, and No. 11 in the "Labour Discussion Series." I will only read a short extract from this. It is:
"For example, a Tory Government may believe it is in the national interest to defend by force the foreign investments of big business men"—
that is a typical example of lying propaganda,
"or to prevent Communist revolution in any foreign country. A Labour Government may believe that, while neither of those interests is truly national, British power should be used to protect Socialist governments abroad or to overthrow Fascist regimes."
Next, I have G. D. H. Cole on "Labour's Foreign Policy," a very interesting document, published by the "New Statesman."
Mr. Austin: How much?
Major Beamish: This one cost sixpence. All I will read from this pamphlet by a man whom I would describe as the pundit of the Socialist movement, is one of his conclusions that:
"The unity of Europe should rest on Socialist foundations."
He goes on to advocate a "Socialist federation of the West." But he mitigates that somewhat by saying that it should be based firmly on the liberal tradition, with a small "I" for the word "liberal."
The last document to which I wish to draw attention is the Report of the 46th Annual Conference of the Labour Party at Margate, in 1947. This is extremely serious. This document costs two shillings and sixpence. From among a clutter of highly irresponsible suggestions I select two resolutions, of which I will read part only. The first resolution was moved by a deputy from Bury, and it said:
"This Conference, advocating that the most positive and energetic assistance be given to building up Social-Democratic and co-operative forces in Europe and the world, puts on record…."
That is from the first resolution. The extract from the second resolution is:
"Thereby creating the conditions in which a Socialist and peaceful Europe can develop. Simultaneously the Conference calls on the Party to carry further its efforts to bring together the Socialist movements in Europe to discuss concrete steps directed towards the
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economic and political reconstruction of Europe."
To my astonishment, I find that, contrary to the view of my right hon. Friend, the Member for Warwick and Leamington, the Foreign Secretary accepted and blessed both these resolutions. In other words, the Foreign Secretary is fully committed to a purely Socialist foreign policy, which seeks to foster social democracy all over Europe. [Interruption.]—Is anything wrong?
Mr. Austin: only rise to say that, although the hon. Gentleman says the Foreign Secretary is committed to a purely Socialist foreign policy, I would point out that, so far, he has not shown it.
Major Beamish: That only goes to show still further the doubts and fears in the Socialist Party, about which I am talking. I would like to draw attention to these two resolutions at the Labour Party Conference, and I refer to these only among a number of irresponsible suggestions. The Foreign Secretary, according to the report of the Labour Party Annual Conference, page 180, said:
"'I have no objection to the Bury resolution, which cheers one up. As to the Hampstead resolution, on the Economic Commission for Europe, I certainly not only will accept but welcome it'."
What are the facts about international Socialism in Europe? When the Cominform came into being as a tactical headquarters for international Communism, it could have been a signal for the European Socialists' finest hour. But no, Sir. What happened? Socialism in Europe gave the final proof that it is compromised and rotten. The truth of the matter is that, ever since Karl Marx was a "drone" living in Soho on the earnings of Engels, all liberal-minded Social democrats have been the bitter enemies of the Communists and what is inexplicable to me is that so few liberal-minded Socialists have realised this fundamental fact.
Mr. Platts-Mills rose—
Major Beamish: I am sorry, I cannot give way. There is little time left. What I was going to say was that I and, I believe, my colleagues, have everything in common with liberal-minded Socialists where fundamentals and principles are concerned. But, instead of the Social Democratic parties in Europe realising

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this fact most of them have been hypnotised and fascinated completely by the outworn and old-fashioned theories of Karl Marx. Marxian Socialists are the most reactionary diehards, brass-hats and Blimps alive, and those who hold these views have never brought their economic theories up-to-date since 1848.
I wrote a letter to "The Times," and it was printed—as so seldom are my letters to "The Times"—under the heading "Socialism in Europe." It was by way of an answer to a speech, similar to the one which we heard about an hour ago, by the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Shawcross). I said:
"May I record some facts which should finally dispose of these dangerous fallacies?

(1) In Bulgaria, Roumania, Yugoslavia and Albania all Socialists who dared actively to oppose Communism are murdered, are in hiding, or have fled the country, except for M. Lulchev and his five deputies in Bulgaria. In all four countries strong Socialist parties have merged, or sunk their identity, with the Communists and assisted the latter in the formation of police states on the Nazi-Communist model.

(2) In Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estcnia, and the Soviet zone of Germany, Socialists are no longer known under that name.

(3) Out of the other twenty countries in the whole of the rest of Europe (none of which is mentioned in (1) or (2) above) only Great Britain, Norway, and Sweden have absolute Socialist parliamentary majorities, though in Denmark, Finland, and Switzerland the Socialists gained more votes than any other single party at the last elections.

(4) In Poland and Hungary the stronger parts of the Socialist parties have given active support and encouragement to the Communists in establishing Totalitarian regimes.

(5) In every country in Europe, including Great Britain, the Socialist parties are split on the question of whether to subordinate their inner liberal and Christian feelings to their Marxist ideology."

The significant thing about that letter was that it was never answered. The reason why it was never answered was that there is no answer to it. I had hoped—but time is too short—to refer to some of the anomalies which arose at international Socialist conferences recently. Signor Nenni, who is a Communist collaborator, was invited, while Signor Saragat from Italy only had an unofficial invitation. The gallant Petrescu, who gave such brave evidence in the case of Maniu, was not invited at all while Roumanian Social Democrats, indistinguishable from
526
Communists, were invited. Premier Cyrankiewicz, from Poland, was invited, while such a great trade union and Socialist leader as Zulawski was ignored and not wanted. Premier Szakasits, near-Communist Premier of Hungary, was invited, and M. Ries, Minister of Justice in a country where there is no justice, was the official delegate. While the conference was going on, the unfortunate and elderly M. Peyer, the much-respected Socialist leader, arrived at the conference and was told that he was not wanted and was rebuffed. That is the sort of thing which was hound to happen.
I had wanted to make some choice remarks about my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) but as my time is practically finished, I must draw to an end. I apologise if he has waited up and has been disappointed.
I hold that the major objects of British foreign policy must be the maintenance of peace, freedom and the prosperity that comes from a rising standard of living, in the first place, for the British Commonwealth and Empire. That will never be achieved so long as the Soviet Union sprawls outside its pre-1939 boundaries. So long as these objects depend on the rotten peg of international Socialism, so long will peace be endangered. I hope that the Prime Minister, when he replies to-morrow, will make it clear once and for all whether British foreign policy seeks to foster Socialism in Europe or whether his recent conversion—and it is very recent—to a realisation of the world menace of Communism means that British foreign policy is now to be British and not Socialist. I hope, if he answers nothing else I have said, he will answer that one point. To put it another way—are the alien theories of the hon. Member for Gateshead, the woolly thinking of the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) and the sloppy idealism of those who still believe in unilateral disarmament as an example to a potential aggressor armed to the teeth, repudiated once and for all? If so, then the Foreign Secretary can comfort himself with the fact that 90 per cent. of the nation—and more—will be solidly behind him. Patience is a virtue but when carried to excess it becomes appeasement.
Mr. Austin: May I rise on a point of Order and request information from you, Sir? If I were fortunate enought to catch

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your eye for the remaining moment, would I be allowed to continue my speech in the Debate tomorrow?
Mr. Speaker: No—because it is a different Question to-morrow. If it were an adjourned Debate, then the right would carry on, but tomorrow it will be a
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different Question. I am now about to put the Question, "That the House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes past Eleven o' Clock.

  INDIA (PENSIONS)
  INDIA (PENSIONS)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Clothing Coupons
  Clothing Coupons
  Sisal Stocks, Tanganyika
  Sisal Stocks, Tanganyika
  Flower Imports
  Flower Imports
  Advertising Expenditure
  Advertising Expenditure
  Pulp and Paper Production
  Pulp and Paper Production
ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Basic Petrol and Tourist Traffic
  Basic Petrol and Tourist Traffic
  Steel Exports
  Steel Exports
  Shipbuilding (Steel Allocation)
  Shipbuilding (Steel Allocation)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Half-Crowns and Florins
  Half-Crowns and Florins
  Note Issue
  Note Issue
  Requisitioned Property (Rental Compensation)
  Requisitioned Property (Rental Compensation)
  War Damage (Shanklin Esplanade)
  War Damage (Shanklin Esplanade)
  TEMPORARY CIVIL SERVANTS (GRATUITIES)
  TEMPORARY CIVIL SERVANTS (GRATUITIES)
  GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING (COST)
  GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING (COST)
FUEL AND POWER
  Basic Petrol (Withdrawal)
  Basic Petrol (Withdrawal)
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
  Supplementary Petrol Allowances
  Coke Stocks (Non-Industrial Premises)
  Coke Stocks (Non-Industrial Premises)
  Benzole Production
  Benzole Production
  Electricity Consumption
  Electricity Consumption
  Petroleum Board
  Petroleum Board
  Fuel Saving (Leaflets)
  Fuel Saving (Leaflets)
  Electricity Generating Capacity
  Electricity Generating Capacity
COAL INDUSTRY
  Coal Prices
  Coal Prices
  Production Figures
  Production Figures
  Domestic Coal
  Domestic Coal
  Mineworkers' Coal
  Mineworkers' Coal
  Pit Horses and Ponies
  Pit Horses and Ponies
  Coal-Getters
  Coal-Getters
  ALIMONY (LEGISLATION)
  ALIMONY (LEGISLATION)
  CRIMINAL CASES (DEPOSITIONS)
  CRIMINAL CASES (DEPOSITIONS)
  CHILDREN'S OFFICERS
  CHILDREN'S OFFICERS
  IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY (PRISON SENTENCES)
  IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY (PRISON SENTENCES)
  AYLESBURY PRISON (POTATO RATION)
  AYLESBURY PRISON (POTATO RATION)
  POLICE RECRUITMENT
  POLICE RECRUITMENT
  ARAB ORGANISATION, LONDON
  ARAB ORGANISATION, LONDON
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Blood Donors
  Blood Donors
  Analgesic Apparatus
  Analgesic Apparatus
  Dentistry Materials
  Dentistry Materials
  Private Nurseries
  Private Nurseries
  Tubercular Patients (Treatment Abroad)
  Tubercular Patients (Treatment Abroad)
HOUSING
  Daventry
  Daventry
  St. Albans
  St. Albans
  Requirements
  Requirements
  Farm Workers
  Farm Workers
  Repairs
  Repairs
  Local Authorities (Retention Money)
  Local Authorities (Retention Money)
  Sites (Allotments)
  Sites (Allotments)
  Application Lists, Wales
  Application Lists, Wales
  Architects' Drawings
  Architects' Drawings
  Rents
  Rents
  Small Shopkeepers (Compensation)
  Small Shopkeepers (Compensation)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PUBLICITY
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PUBLICITY
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE INSTITUTIONS
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE INSTITUTIONS
  NATIONAL HEALTH AND UNEMPLOYMENT SCHEME
  NATIONAL HEALTH AND UNEMPLOYMENT SCHEME
  MOTOR CARS (DOCTORS)
  MOTOR CARS (DOCTORS)
EDUCATION
  School Milk and Meals, Shropshire
  School Milk and Meals, Shropshire
  Teachers (Training)
  Teachers (Training)
  Youth Clubs (Canteens)
  Youth Clubs (Canteens)
  School Equipment
  School Equipment
  School Buildings
  School Buildings
  University Students (Grants)
  University Students (Grants)
  MALTA (REBUILDING)
  MALTA (REBUILDING)
  COLONIAL POSTAGE STAMPS
  COLONIAL POSTAGE STAMPS
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (MINERS' COMPENSATION)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (MINERS' COMPENSATION)
  RAILWAYS (CHRISTMAS SERVICES)
  RAILWAYS (CHRISTMAS SERVICES)
  BUS SERVICES, EAST KENT
  BUS SERVICES, EAST KENT
  EMPLOYMENT (EX-SERVICE OFFICERS)
  EMPLOYMENT (EX-SERVICE OFFICERS)
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (IMPROVEMENTS) BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Borough of Farnworth Order;
Urban District of Denton Order;
Urban District of Harpenden Order.
Lord WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending Section one of the Act to the said areas, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PUBLIC REGISTERS AND RECORDS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
4.5 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
Lord MORRISON: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I had intended to commence my brief outline of the measure by saying that I thought it might prove non-contentious—until I remembered that I got myself into trouble just before the recess by making a somewhat similar remark about another small Scottish Bill. Noble Lords who were present then may remember that on that occasion, fortunately for me, I received unexpected help from a noble Earl on the Benches opposite, Lord Glasgow, who came to my rescue by announcing that, for the first time in his life, and I think he said probably the last, he intended to
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support the Labour Party. The Bill was passed and is now in another place. In presenting this present Bill I hope I have learned to be cautious. I commence therefore by modestly saying that I doubt if this Bill is non-contentious, but that I hope I am on safe ground in describing it as a small non-Party measure which I am sure will receive the careful consideration which it deserves.
The Bill is designed to effect reforms in the Registers and Records Department in Scotland. The Registers and Records Department is in charge of the Keeper of the Registers and Records of Scotland, an office created in 1928 when the Registers Department and the Record Office were brought under a single control. The Registers Department is concerned in the main with the registration of property transactions in Scotland and the Record Office with the custody of Scottish legal and historical records. The first main object of the Bill is to provide for the appointment of separate Keepers of the Registers and Records respectively. For many years prior to 1928 the two departments had been loosely united under the titular headship of the Deputy Clerk Register—an office which was allowed to lapse after the First World War. They were merged in 1928 under the new office of Keeper of the Registers and Records, and it was expected that this course would be conducive to efficiency and economy in the working of these departments. But the expectation has not been realized. The two offices exercise different functions for which different qualifications are required; and the experience of the last twenty years show clearly that the practical advantages lie in separation.
It is in line with the practice in almost all other countries that the Record Office should be a separate administrative unit, and the separation now proposed is recommended by the present Keeper of the Registers and Records, after many years' experience of the amalgamation, and by the Scottish Records Advisory Council, a Statutory body created in 1937. A subcommittee of the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries, after inspection, has strongly endorsed this view, and this is what they say in their Report:
"The combination of the Register and Record Departments under a single Keeper does not spring from the nature of the work of the two Departments, which is quite different and calls for different qualifications and outlock."
LORD SALTOUN: Would the noble Lord say what the Report is and when it was published?
LORD MORRISON: The Report is a Report of a sub-committee of the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries. I cannot give the noble Lord the date on which it was published but I will obtain it for him.
This proposal, to which effect is given in Clause 1 of the Bill, and which will create a separate Scottish Record Office, will be widely welcomed in Scotland. The second main object of the Bill is to carry out reforms in the Registers Department in the procedure for the registration of writs relating to property transactions in Scotland. Such reforms were proposed by a departmental committee in 1928, but at that time there were differences of opinion on the subject and further consideration of the proposals was deferred. The reforms are now endorsed by the Organization and Methods Division of the Treasury after inspection last year. The General Council of Solicitors in Scotland have been consulted and have raised no objections to the proposals. Effect is given to the main reforms in procedure in Clause 2 of the Bill, and Clause 3 provides, with the concurrence of the Lord President of the Court of Session, that subsidiary details should be regulated by Act of Sederunt. This provision will maintain the Courts traditional position in connexion with the Register.
It is proposed that the reforms should be introduced on a date to be appointed between January 1, 1949, and January 1, 1951, and when in full operation they should effect important savings in time and man-power in the registration of writs. Advantage is taken in Clause 4 of the Bill to provide that the regulations for the destruction of useless documents which have been transmitted to the Keeper of the Records may, by agreement, be applied also to the destruction of useless documents which, though not actually transmitted, are of a kind which could be sent to the Keeper. The remaining clauses are formal and do not call for comment. The proposed reorganization will allow the Registers Department and the Records Office to work as two contiguous but self-contained units and will modernize the procedure for registering writs. With these words I commend the Bill to your Lordships' House as a short but useful measure.
Moved, That this Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Morrison).
4.9 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the noble Lord said that he doubted whether this Bill is non-contentious. I have been trying to work out what he means by that statement. My own view is that the Bill is more an unnecessary Bill than a contentious one. I cannot see that it is really essential. I have only one or two remarks to make. One is that I am glad that the appointment of the Keeper of Registers and Records will be in the hands of the Lord President of the Council; and I hope that the status of the office will not be reduced. I think it is perhaps not inopportune now to pay a tribute to Dr. Angus, who has worked with such distinction.
With regard to the second part of the Bill, which deals with the registration of writs, I think it is perhaps premature to introduce such a measure at this time. We have the very complicated Town and Country Planning Act, which is going fundamentally to affect the whole of land tenure and the registration thereof. I should have thought it would be wiser to wait until the effects of that Act were more fully and properly appreciated. I see that the Secretary of State is empowered, as I think he has been before, to pay such remuneration as the Treasury may agree towards maintaining the Scottish records; and I think I am correct in saying that the annual sum expended at the present time is £200. I would commend to the Secretary of State for Scotland that he should consider increasing that amount when this reorganization takes place, because the sum is really inadequate to deal with the volume of records which, if worth keeping, are worth keeping properly.
4.11 p.m.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I wish to say a few words on this Bill in support of His Majesty's Government. In the first place, I think this is a measure which is long overdue. I was Chairman of the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries, but not of the sub-committee which went into the details of the Bill. The present Keeper has quite exceptional qualifications for the dual post, and the authorities of Scotland, after consideration, came to the conclusion that

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it was extremely improbable now that they would find any other individual with qualifications suitable for the dual post. The sub-committee of the Standing Commission found that the records really were completely behind so far as their arrangement, their indexing and the rest of it, is concerned and they were nowhere near the standard which prevails in England. Quite rightly, I think, Scotland felt that something should be done about the matter, and done as soon as possible, and that there should be an historian with qualifications for that post similar to the Keeper of the Public Records in England. Therefore, it was thought desirable to divide the post into two. The Registers are entirety different from such things as we know them on this side of the Border, and I would not attempt to put my toe over the line in regard to Scottish law, which is a long way outside my depth. I understand that the Registers are in constant use in the Courts and, therefore, an entirely different set-up is required from that necessary for Public Records. I have only one criticism to make of the proposal which is now being brought forward, and it is that as the Report of the sub-committee of the Standing Commission (which I think, by the way, was never published) was made some time ago, so far from this Bill being brought in too soon, I think it is a good deal overdue.
4.13 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I am told that the great William Pitt the Younger, when he had very bad business to transact in Parliament, would shake his head over it and say, "It is a very bad case, a very bad case; we must apply our majority to this." His Majesty's Government, when they have a very bad case, shake their heads over it and say, "We must apply Lord Morrison to this," because he has had so very many difficult Bills and this, I think, is the most difficult. I hope your Lordships will not allow the great kindness we all feel for the noble Lord to prevent you from giving really serious consideration to the measure which is now proposed. We can do so with more freedom as the noble Lord who introduced it has said that it is a nonparty measure. I think it certainly is. The question is not one of our Party or of your Party, but of what is the best thing to do. I hope, therefore, that the noble
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Lord will not feel that we are arguing on Party lines if, as a House, we express our feelings strongly about this Bill.
I do not propose to controvert anything that the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, said about the measure. His remarks concern only Clause 1. But Clauses 2 and 3 are the important part of Bill, and they must be very seriously considered by your Lordships. In the first place, the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, is misinformed, I think, as to the extent of the opposition to this Bill in Scotland. I think he is under the impression that there are only a few people called searchers whose pockets are going to be injured by the Bill, and who are opposing its passage. That is really not the case. It is perfectly true that those searchers and every law agent in Scotland who is in touch with those searchers will be injured by the Bill, and it would be a pity, I think. to do anything unnecessarily which will injure a body of men who have done magnificent work in the past and have contributed to the security and efficiency of Scottish business. This Bill is strongly opposed by the Scottish Law Agents' Society which represents the Scottish law agents in every town in Scotland and whose leaders are the leading practitioners of law in Scotland. The Society of Solicitors to the Supreme Court has reported against the Bill. The Society of Writers to the Signet has not reported, but that may be largely because there has not been proper time for them to do so; they have not been sufficiently well aware of what was in prospect.
As the noble Lord said, the Bill is founded upon a Report made in 1928. That was called the Fleming Report, and it was so contrary to the experience and knowledge of every member of the legal profession that it was tacitly abandoned. It is true that a revised Report was made in, I believe, the year 1932, but the Government did not act even on that Report, and it has lain dormant for the sixteen years that have since intervened. I should like, in passing, to say that I think your Lordships should be very careful about legislating in conformity with Reports that have been practically withdrawn, then allowed to lie dormant, and then, a decade or more than a decade later, produced to your Lordships as authority for legislation. That is the way in which bad and unsatisfactory laws are

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produced. It is true that in January, 1947, there was a Report made which I have not seen and which very few people have seen. It was prepared by the Organization and Methods Division of the Treasury. I am told that that Organization and Methods Division consists of a gentleman and a lady, who paid a visit to the Register House and asked a few perfunctory questions. I understand that the lady is a B.L.—I do not know what "B.L." stands for; I think it should be V.L. or M.L., not B.L.; but, in any case, whatever her qualifications and whatever his qualifications, a few questions on a short visit are not enough to establish a case.
I will give your Lordships some idea of what actually happens. Every heritable burden and every title in Scotland is, and has been, I think, from time immemorial, registered in the Register House. The brief which I have before me talks about Acts of 1603 and 1693, but, as a matter of fact, the practice of the registration of deeds is very, very ancient in Scotland. May I say, largely for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, if he is interested in these things, that in Scotland we used the notary rather than the seal. We use the Continental practice as our method of establishing authenticity of documents. When a deed is sent for registration it is noted in a presentment book. The hour, as well as the date of the presentment of the deed, is noted, with a short description of the deed sufficient to identify it. If no objection to the deed is made it is entered in what is called the minute book—a book written in pen and ink and kept in order—with the hour at which it was presented. The minute book, of course, is indexed. If you or I or anybody buys property in Scotland, he is entitled to have that property delivered free of burden; and it is and has been from time immemorial, the universal practice for the seller to produce what is called a "search." He produces a search made by a searcher who goes to the Register House and searches the minute book, and who goes as far back as is necessary to establish that there are no heritable (which in Scotland means real) burdens upon that property and that it is free of encumbrances.
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It is proposed in the present Bill, in Clause 2 (1) (a), to abolish the minute book and to keep only the presentment book. That sounds all very well, but I should be sorry to see such a step taken, because a large number of writs are sent for registration which are never, in fact, registered. There may be some flaw in the writ, or there may be some fault in the description—for example, in the bond or something—and then that writ is withdrawn from presentment and is never registered. It may come back in an altered form, or there may have been some more vital fault and it may never come back. The presentment book, therefore, is merely a rough day book, and it affords only the data from which the minute book, which is the really important book, is made up.
The importance of the minute book lies in this: that the validity of deeds is dependent upon their order in the minute book; an earlier deed claims precedence over a later deed, and that is a very great security. The officials of the Register House make their own searches, and that is a great convenience for them; but normal legal practice is to have a private searcher who goes back through the minute book and establishes quite clearly the fact that there are no burdens there. There is an important point here, that that private searcher is liable for the truth of that search. If anything is discovered—if there is some burden or other which he has not discovered, and which inures against the seller or purchaser—he is liable. Under this Bill the Treasury are to take over this responsibility, but, as I understand it, they are not going to take over the responsibility with anything like the completeness that the present very efficient searchers take it over, and that will inure greatly to the disadvantage of business.
It has been stated that the object of doing away with the minute book, and merely recording these searches, is the great saving that it would make in labour and trouble. I am not convinced of that, and I am also strongly of opinion that the saving of trouble will be secured by diminution of security. I did ask, in a private conversation, the extent to which this saving would go, and how many people would be saved by reducing the minute book. I could obtain no clear answer. The only answer I received was

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that it was the opinion of the Fleming Committee: But when, as a matter of business, I am considering savings in a business I work it out in man-power, and I do get some idea of the extent of those savings. Therefore, I think this should be reconsidered.
There is another important point in regard to Clause 3, which gives the Court of Session permission to prescribe the form of writs. Nobody is better aware than I of the great saving and advantage that has come in business in Scotland by having photographic reproduction of writs. It is a very great advantage indeed, and we are all perfectly aware of it. When photographic reproduction is impossible the registration takes very much longer, and typing and manuscript has to be used instead. Therefore, this Bill does propose to give the Court of Session power to prescribe the form of writ to be recorded, the size of the paper (and of the margins thereof), and to enable the satisfactory reproduction by photography. In my view that is going much too far. We are all perfectly aware of the advantage of these processes, but I would point out to your Lordships that almost anything can become a writ, and one cannot always be sure of having writs in a form that makes them suitable for photography.
Let us take a very simple case. Let us take the case of a bond upon a house. I grant a bond upon my house and get the money. When I sign the bond, the money is handed to me, and the bond is sent for registration. Suppose that it is not registered, that it is rejected by the Keeper of the Register, what happens? What is the position? It does not say in this Bill that the writ is invalid, it says merely that it cannot be registered.
The writ is, of course, perfectly valid; it is a contract to pay money, and yet it may not be registered. Supposing that writ is in existence, it may take priority over a registered writ which is in the minute book, if the minute book remains, and in the presentment book and the official search if it does not remain. In a competition I do not know which of the writs would be preferred. So there we should have a serious situation. I think this Bill goes very far, in that respect, and in its present form should certainly not go through your Lordships' House.
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I have shown your Lordships that the whole of the legal profession in Scotland, so far as we have been able to obtain its opinion, is opposed to this measure. The noble Lord, Lord Morrison, appears to have been misinformed about that. At any rate, that is to the best of my information. I have shown your Lordships strong reasons for drastic amendment of the Bill, but I submit that, though it should be amended, the amendment should take place after consultation with those legal bodies who know most about this matter—that is, the Society of Writers to the Signet, the Society of Solicitors to the Supreme Court and the Scottish Law Agents' Society. I regard that as very important. I will not ask your Lordships this afternoon to reject this measure, but I will ask my noble friend who speaks for the Government to arrange that there may be a considerable interval before we have the Committee stage so that when that stage does arrive he will be in a position to put forward Government Amendments which will have the support of the legal profession in Scotland. A prolonged interval will also give us the opportunity of consulting with our clients, and getting from them Amendments which they would wish to have made.
4.30 p.m.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships would not wish me to go into lengthy details at this stage on this small measure. May I say, very briefly, how delighted I am personally to see the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, back in his place after his visit abroad. This Chamber does not seem like your Lordships' House when Scottish affairs are being discussed and he is away. I am very glad he has now returned. I had thought that perhaps he might have come back bearded like the pard and swearing strange oaths, but this is not a Bill which gives him a fair opportunity. I have no doubt, however, that further Scottish Bills will be brought forward liter on. I am indebted to the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, for his commendation of the Bill, and I entirely agree with him so far as my knowledge of this measure goes. It is difficult if not impossible to find a suitable candidate for the dual post of which he spoke. It has been put to me that the kind of person required is a con-

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veyancing lawyer and a historical scholar, and that is a combination which is not easy to obtain.
The only serious opposition to the Bill has come from the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun. As I have already said, I do not think that he would expect that I should go into detail in answering his points, particularly as in the later stages of the Bill in your Lordships' House there will be opportunities for these matters to be developed. In addition, the Bill, after it leaves your Lordships' House, will still have to run the gauntlet of all its stages in another place. The noble Lord interrupted me—quite legitimately—when I was speaking about the Report of the subcommittee of the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries. It was an informal Report and it was made to the Treasury and the Secretary of State, and was not published.
The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, seemed a little afraid that the proposals in the Town and Country Planning Act would cause complications. I am informed that the proposals in this Bill will not be affected at all by the Town and Country Planning Act. I hope Lord Saltoun will forgive me if I do not attempt to answer in detail all his questions. There is, however, one which I should like to answer. He has quoted a statement which I also saw in a Scottish newspaper. I believe it is on record that even in Scottish newspapers mis-statements sometimes appear. That is very rare, of course. The statement to which I refer was to the effect that the Organization and Records Department of the Treasury had sent a lady to Edinburgh. I believe that is entirely incorrect. The lady, I am told, is employed on the staff in Edinburgh, and has been for many years. She was not sent there from London as was stated in a prominent Scottish newspaper the other day.
Perhaps I may be allowed to thank noble Lords who have taken part in this brief discussion. We know that at this moment most of your Lordships are not particularly interested in Scotland but have a greater interest in other business to which the House is about to proceed. It was therefore well that the discussion on this measure should be brief. In regard to Lord Saltoun's request for a longer interval than usual before the Committee stage of this Bill is reached, may I say
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that I am not myself responsible for those matters, but I will endeavour to ensure that arrangements are made for a period of a fortnight to elapse instead of a week, which is the usual interval before the Committee stage is reached. I hope that that will give the noble Lord the time which he requires.
Lord SALTOUN: I am very much obliged to the noble Lord.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BRITISH WIVES IN RUSSIA.
LORD VANSITTART LORD VANSITTART rose to call attention to the continued detention of British wives by the Soviet Government, to propose action, and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think you all know this story by heart—and I say advisedly "by heart." It is a test case of the right of human beings to embark on the most ancient and instinctive of all their callings—the pursuit of happiness. Of such we say: "Those whom God hath joined together let no man put asunder." Now a modern idol has claimed, without cause vouchsafed or discoverable, to ride rough-shod over our convictions.
I propose to-day that we should show that we mean what we say—nothing more and nothing less. This perfectly needless dispute has arisen because all human impulses are suspect in police States. So, hardly were these young lives joined together when they were arbitrarily put asunder. We pleaded in vain and we reasoned in vain. We have made no fewer than fifteen futile representations, all of which have been treated with the same contumely and utter disregard as every representation we have made in the course of the last three ugly and debasing years in regard to judicial murders, faked elections and breaches of faith. Surely we have had enough of these humiliations. Even in this matter, in which the most craven fellow-traveller can find no word to say in defence of the attitude of the Soviet Government, we encounter nothing but blank refusal from Totalitaria, which continually demands fresh human sacrifices to a new Moloch as deaf to pity and as blind to reason as the old.
Seen in the light of holocaust, the fate of a few married couples may seem a small affair. But we do not see things

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in that light, and this is not a small affair. It is not a small and petty piece of gratuitous tyranny. The issue goes far deeper. The happiness of fellow beings and fellow subjects has received an utterly senseless life sentence—how senseless will be seen from what follows. On December 17, Mr. Bevin was asked in another place whether Moloch, or Molotov, had ever told us of any motive for this stupid cruelty. He answered laconically, "No, Sir." Then he was asked: "Can the right honourable gentleman hold out any hope that these husbands will ever see their wives again?" Just as laconically he answered, "No, Sir." My Lords, that is a confession of impotence. It is a counsel of despair. It will do Mr. Bevin, this Government, this Parliament and this country no good as it stands. I propose to-day that it should be re-written. The new version would read as follows:
"Question: To ask the House of Lords whether they can hold out any hope that these husbands will ever see their wives again.
Answer: Yes, every hope if the Government will play the cards that fortune has put into their hands."
My Lords, you hold all four aces. I ask you to play them. As for myself, in conformity with Mr. Bevin's celebrated formula I will put my cards on the table face upwards. But, before trying to show how I think they should be played, may I say that I have played many hands for all of you for nearly forty years? I have served Governments of every complexion—Conservative, Liberal, Labour and Coalition. For each one I have carried out their instructions, even when they went against the grain. I argued often. I objected sometimes. On occasions, I protested—and protested strongly; but from none of these instructions did I depart. When they were final, I acted on them as thoroughly as had they been my own. There is no merit whatever in that—the entire public service do that. It is a matter of conscience. Now, in the free evening of my life, I have received fresh and binding instructions, not from any Party but again from my own conscience; and from those instructions I can no more depart than in the days when I was your servant.
Some people may say that I import sentiment into politics. Why, yes, I certainly do. I allow some space for sentiment in such grave matters as our relations with
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France and the United States, and space for sentiment in my hatred of German aggression and of all forms of cruelty everywhere, including this one. And I also allow some space for sentiment in the minor affairs of political life. British politics are not so hard-boiled as to exclude sentiment. Such exclusion is the hallmark of Tolalitaria. I not only plead sentiment, I go further. I say that this universal pursuit of happiness would be more likely to succeed if man more often followed the heart that God has given to all, and less often the lead that He sometimes denies.
We are, all of us, threatened again by this heady and heartless totalitarian design to dictate to the world, whether in the mass or as represented by these poor people whose cause I am defending today. I think there is still room for heart in these matters. Should I have said "heart" at all? Surely I was wrong. I can find no heart in the Kremlin. I can find no heart in people who have descended to the meanest of all forms of racialism—the prohibition of foreign marriages. The Kremlin had approved these marriages. It approved the weddings before persecuting the wedded; and that is perhaps the foulest feature of the whole of this sad story. In my view there is no heart in those who say: "Those whom God has joined together we shall certainly put asunder" for the more pleasure of giving pain. No, I think there is no heart at all. in Robotti-Anticristo. I have found a Soviet agent who calls himself by that name, and Robotti-Anticristo could not: possibly have a heart. Therefore, for all that we hold dear, we are bound to stand against him in an evergreen maquis of the spirit. Therefore, in this very moderate course which I propound and press to-day, I ask and expect the support of all antirobots—that is, of all normal people, and above all, of those who profess and call themselves Christians. Alter all, the first question confronting us to-day is, how much does Christian marriage mean to us? Behind that, there is a much greater question: Does the individual matter? Moloch, ancient and modern, says "No." Christ said, "Yes"; and we have said "Yes" ever since. Therefore it is rot open to Christians to sit with folded arms and say "Yes, yes, yes. I agree with Christ in principle but nowadays nothing can be done in practice."
All I ask is the application of simple parity, complete reciprocity—that reciprocity which is the basis of all international relations and which is never long disregarded without danger. The Soviet Embassy and Consulates are no more concerned in this than our own. The Soviet Government, however, maintain here a large number of other establishments, all very heavily staffed. For instance, there are 120 members in the Trade Delegation alone, and a glance at the telephone directory would show your Lordships that they use no fewer than 48 telephones. There is, in fact, in this country a large Soviet colony. These 120 members of the Trade Delegation are accompanied by something like 100 wives and 50 children. There is a very good reason for that, very germane to my argument to-day. The Soviet Government always prefer to send married couples to these assignments, lest the celibates should be corrupted by Western affections. Carlyle called Robespierre the "sea-green incorruptible." Now we have "blood-red incorruptibles," racialists all, whether in a minor matter of this kind or in the major menace of Pan-Slavism. Every one of the fifty children of these married couples attends their own school in Hampstead, lest one of them should accidentally crunch one pip of the fruit of the tree of Western knowledge.
Besides all these there are other cultural and trading organizations—the Soviet Shipping Agency, the Russian Oil Products, the Moscow Narodny Bank and so on. All these have Soviet staffs with full facilities for family life. There are no such staffs and facilities or institutions for the British in Russia. Where, then, is the reciprocity? That is only the beginning of the story. We have here as well the Tass Agency and the Soviet Weekly, with similar staffs and similar facilities for family life. We have the Soviet Film Agency, with similar staffs and facilities. We have no such British agency in Russia. Again I say, where is the reciprocity? The story continues. All these Soviet staffs with wives and children occupy places in this country which are not only leased, but bought. Now the sale of property to foreigners is illegal in the Soviet Union. Where is the reciprocity? Again, all the Soviet families enjoy here full liberty of movement. Very
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different is the position of the British in Russia.
All these Soviet families have the utmost ease in acquiring entrance visas here and no exit visas are required. Very different is the position of the British in Russia. Again, all these Soviet families have liberty to import and employ Russian servants. Very different, again, is the position of British establishments in Russia. They have to take the nominees of the Soviet Government—that is, of the N.K.V.D., as it was, the N.V.D., as it is now—regardless of the qualifications of the people, and on occasions, we all know, these people are used frankly for spying. There is, in fact, an enormous disproportion of numbers and facilities between the British in Russia and the Russians in Britain. Above all, there is this disparity of facilities for family life which we freely allow here and which Moloch and Robotti Anticristo deny to others.
Therefore, my simple proposal is that we should make a final appeal to Stalin. I hold no brief for the Dean of Canterbury, who has just written a book in high praise of Totalitaria, called Soviet World. In search for matter of adulation he went out to Russia and had an interview with Stalin in which the question of these poor wives came up. The Dean has written that, cordially and spontaneously, Stalin said "Something will be done." Well, let us ask him to fulfil that promise, but at the same rime indicate that if these wives have not been returned by the end of next month we, for our part, shall apply the principles of parity and reciprocity. In other words, we will equalize the number of Soviet women and children in this country with the number of women and children in Russia, leaving aside the matter of the diplomatic and consular staffs. What could be more just and reasonable than that? I do not ask for any tyrannical retentions; I merely say that if the Kremlin opts for parity we will courteously and humanely return these women and children to their own country. That is my proposal. If the Government can better it I shall welcome their proposition. I say that the time for words has gone, and the time for action has come. We have been wording, and wording and wording for years, and nothing whatever has happened. Now there is an end of that epoch. If the

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Government can improve on my proposal, let them. If not, it stands, and I will now say a few words in defence of that proposal, and in advance.
In some timorous quarters it may be urged that any breath or touch of humanity might somehow affect the Anglo-Russian Trade Agreement. Well, that Agreement is immensely advantageous to the Soviet Union; in fact, many of us think that Russia got the best of it. In any case, if there were ever any default on that Agreement—that is possible at some future date; nobody can foresee—it would be for reasons very different from those which I am putting forward to-day. Anglo-Russian trade is a convenience to both sides and I hope it will go on to expand and prosper. But trade has no more to do with this case than the flowers that I insist shall bloom in these young people's spring. Moreover, it is possible to sell grain and timber in a state of temporary celibacy. I hope it might be very temporary. It might even be possible to do it on something less than forty-eight telephones. Moreover, whenever your Lordships noticed in the past—and believe me here I speak with considerable inner knowledge—that the staffs of a foreign mission from any country were notoriously and obviously inflated, you could be well assured that not all their members were indispensable to, or sometimes even engaged in, the strict purposes of commerce and diplomacy. I hope the House will note that I have not entirely lost the diplomatic art of under-statement. I shall say no more on that subject to-day. I merely mention it in passing to show that if the Kremlin insists on parity, we shall not be the losers.
Moreover again, firmness is always much more conducive to understanding than weakness. Therefore, I hope that nobody will be afraid of snarls from any home-grown totalitarians. Travellers' tales are proverbially suspect, but fellow travellers' tales are food for derision. The French have shown great firmness in a similar cause, and in much greater difficulties. The Communist Party in the French Assembly is exactly ninety-two times Messrs. Gallacher and Piratin. Even if, for good measure, you throw in the bunch of fellow travellers in another place, the disparity is enormous. Yet the French have stood very firm. There are hundreds of French subjects literally
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dying to get out, and modern Pharaoh will not let the people go. So the French have decided, although they too need grain, that until Pharaoh does let the people go they, for their part, will allow no one over whom they exercise jurisdiction, either by virtue of birth or naturalization, to go to Soviet Russia. That is a great deal more than I ask. Surely, this Government is not going to falter where the French have trodden so firmly in the name of humanity.
But if the French example is not enough, let us pass on to another—the Chilean example. Towards the end of last year then; was a breach of diplomatic relations between Chile and Soviet Russia. Therefore, the diplomatic staffs of both countries were due to leave. But the son of the Chilean Ambassador in Moscow has married a Russian. Again Pharaoh stepped in and would not let the lady go. Whereupon the Chilean Government decided, and instructed their Mission, that they should remain detained in Moscow, and the Chilean Government for their part would detain the Soviet Mission in Santiago until the lady was allowed out. That is brave. The operation has perhaps been facilitated by the fact that there are twelve Chileans in Moscow, and well over fifty Russians in Santiago, but that is the automatic result of these inflated Soviet staffs everywhere. In cases like this they operate as readymade hostages to fortune. That is why I say that you hold all four aces. The Soviet have got nothing higher than a knave in this case, and I see no reason—and, for my part, I would never consent to it—that a knave should ever take a trick again in this game.
This trail of blood and tears which, through no fault of ours, we are compelled to call the twentieth century, has left us all after unutterable sacrifice in a world more bullied than ever. Only a few days ago Dimitrov was threatening to hang the pale remnant of the opposition in Bulgaria because they criticized the Budget. That is only one of a thousand signs of out times which in many aspects and areas are being frog-marched back to despotism. Very seldom can we do anything to mitigate the ever-growing tale of tyranny. Very seldom can we, save by prayer or protest, shed one ray of light on the gloom. It would be a shame on us all, indeed, if in a case

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where we can do something we still continue to lift no finger to ease the burden, and smugly exemplify La Rochefoucauld's terrible sentence, that we are all strong enough to bear the woes of others. We can render no greater disservice to peace than by giving the impression that we can always be flouted and trampled upon, and that the day will never come on which that can be done once too often. That is the atmosphere in which greater conflicts are prepared. We have it in our power in this matter to make a contribution not only to a better but to a safer world.
On January 3, Mr. Attlee, the Prime Minister, spoke out boldly against totalitarian tyrannies and turpitudes. That was wise and timely, and brave and statesmanlike. But it would not be statesmanlike to utter brave words, and then to recoil at the first facile opportunity of putting them into action. I think the Lord President saw that when he spoke eight days later on the same theme. He said: "We must do things; we must take action." Here is the chance to take action. The Government can do it. Let to-day be the end of the era of retreat. The noble Lord, who I believe is to answer me to-day, said in this House nine months ago that we were making forceful representations on the matter. I am grateful to him for that, but it is clear that the representations, through no fault of his, have not been forceful enough. But he said at the same time that we would not let the matter drop, and to-day I am claiming the fulfilment of that pledge. It is not our wont to pass by on the other side. This matter has been raised before in both Houses, and all honour to them who did so. It has been raised but not pressed, and to-day we have it before us for the first time in its full significance. All other recourses have been in vain.
There was an occasional Soviet practice before the war, adopted with a view to raising foreign currency, of allowing Soviet subjects to be bought out by relatives abroad. That sordid practice has ceased. A fortnight ago this matter came up indirectly before the Committee of the United Nations which is engaged in trying to draft a Bill of Human Rights, and one of the clauses proposed to them would have had the effect of authorizing husbands and wives to live together. Well, you would have thought that was a pretty cracking platitude for the
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twentieth century, would you not? But not at all. The Committee solemnly divided on the platitude, and four voted for it, four against it and there were six abstentions. What are you to think of that? Now, in a world half-choked by moral cowardice, I turn to you, and I ask to-day that we should exercise an elementary, uncontentious human right, which no curtailing legislation can wish to deprive us of. I ask, in a matter like this—which may seem so slight to the cynical but is so wide to the compassionate and far-seeing—that we should so bear ourselves that every human who thinks with and speaks from the heart should say: "Thank God for the House of Lords." I beg to move for Papers.
5.2 p.m.
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, in the deeply moving speech which he has just addressed to us, my noble friend Lord Vansittart has, I am sure, struck a strong responsive chord of sympathy with the spirit of everything he has said. Certainly in the British Parliament and in this House we would none of us subscribe to the doctrine that because the matter affects only a limited number of people we would ever be content to see it put aside. Indeed, the whole of our characteristic history consists of the fact that men have stood up and have championed causes or individuals when they felt that the issue was one which struck at the very heart and centre of our traditions.
Although the situation of these unfortunate husbands is, of course, well known, I venture to mention one circumstance about it which adds greatly to my feeling in the matter. If I understand the situation aright, these gentlemen met the ladies whom they afterwards married in Russia, at a time when they were themselves serving the Allied cause. I think almost all of them were members of our own fighting forces. They were engaged in giving help, and I think I may add instruction, to Russian elements, in order that they might more successfully carry on the war. I know that one of them was over there for the purpose of instructing Russian flying men in the use and practice of a particular military aeroplane. Those were the circumstances in which these men found themselves in Russia. When one adds to that the fact, to which my noble friend referred, that their marriage to these ladies was approved in

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advance by the Soviet Government, the full magnitude of the barbarity—it is nothing but barbarity—of the way in which this matter has been dealt with by the appropriate Soviet authority becomes manifest.
I do not for a moment think it would be the wish of the House that the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, speaking as he always does from the cross Benches, should be the only voice here to declare its horror at what has happened and our determination to support anything which can be wisely done to stop it. That is my excuse for getting up for a few minutes—without claiming to use the language, eloquence and appeal which the noble Lord has at his command—to make quite a plain statement, certainly for myself, and, I think, for a great many people at any rate on this side of the House. I can quite see that at an earlier stage there may have been wisdom in the view: "If we want to achieve anything here we must handle these difficult people carefully." It might have been urged some time back that we are not likely to achieve what we want if we use vehement language or extreme threats. I do not myself think that that would necessarily be an unwise counsel in all circumstances; certainly I would not be prepared to call the people who thought that it was the right course names which would suggest that they were acting in a cowardly way. Diplomacy may sometimes require that attitude, but I think a point can be reached when it becomes obvious that this gentle approach, this whispered humbleness, this appeal to the other man to behave like a good fellow and to shake hands, may be overdone. I certainly would have thought that that was the situation with which we are faced now.
I do not for a moment suggest that it is by any means a complete analogy, but some of your Lordships may think it natural that I should remember that in 1933 the Soviet Government seized seven British engineers, and not only accused them of sabotaging the turbines which they were erecting for their own employers but proceeded to put them through an examination—less understood in those days than it is now. That, I recall, involved keeping one of the men for nineteen consecutive hours under examination without ever a charge being made against him, by three sets of examiners taking turns,
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while he was not allowed even a respite while he ate his food. I may perhaps be allowed to recall that in that situation the Government thought it right—and they were supported by Parliament—to take positive action, involving the passing of an Act of Parliament. It did so turn out that by taking that positive action the Vickers' engineers were released. There certainly are, therefore, cases when that may be regarded as the proper course. I ask the noble Lord who is to reply: What is the view which His Majesty's Government take of this matter?
I too have reminded myself of the earlier debate here. It was in April of last year. It was a short debate on April 30, if any noble Lord cares to look it up. There the question was raised, in suitable and well-chosen terms, by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye. He expressed what we all felt, I think—a great desire to appeal earnestly to the Supreme Soviet to reconsider the decision and to let these people go. The Government answer was given by the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham. I will venture to read one sentence of what he said—speaking, I am sure, with the authority of the Foreign Secretary. He said that there had recently been a distinguished Russian visiting this country and that they had been making representations to him. He went on:
"His Majesty's Government expect to hear in due course the result of this approach. As I say, we feel strongly about the justice of our case, "—
and I am quite certain that noble Lords opposite feel that as strongly as anybody else—
"and we shall certainly not let the matter drop."
The question which occurs to me, as we are all of one mind, and as the Government have put themselves on record as saying that they will not let this matter drop, is "Well, then, what are they going to do?" My noble friend Lord Vansittart has proposed a particular course of action and has presented it very persuasively, as well as with a good, deal of knowledge of detail. I do not possess, and I doubt whether many noble Lords here possess, sufficient knowledge of the situation between ourselves and Soviet Russia to know the probable reactions of the Russian mentality, or to form a view as to whether the noble Lord's proposal is the right one or the best one. Nevertheless,

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I want to say two things quite explicitly—and though my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition is unable to be here at the moment he expressly authorized me to use these words, so that I am not merely speaking for myself; I can speak for him and, I think, for fellow noble Lords here. First, I would say that we would wish to be associated in the fullest measure with Lord Vansittart's vigorous and effective protest. Secondly, while we cannot, I think, be expected to endorse his particular remedy, which is obviously a matter for consideration, we do wish to put on record that we should rejoice if concrete steps were taken (and we hope that concrete steps will be taken) for the purpose which we have at heart.
I do not know how much the Soviet Government care for the good opinion of other people. One would infer from much of their recent action that they do not care a fig about it. They devote an enormous amount of energy, time, personnel and money in propaganda for Communism. Without going into the matter so far as that, I cannot believe that Soviet Russia is entirely indifferent to the extent to which the world at large regards its behaviour as tolerable. I think I should be perfectly right if I were to say that I cannot imagine anything better calculated to stir up anti-Russian feeling in this country than the behaviour of the Soviet Government in this particular case. That anti-Russian feeling will grow, and will grow on a ground with is an absolutely just ground, because it is literally intolerable that we should find perfectly innocent fellow citizens denied the most elementary and the most universally recognized right of living with the wife of their choice.
Therefore, my Lords, any argument that we must treat this matter gently, tentatively and speculatively is no longer of any value at all. The only course which we should find satisfactory would be that concrete steps should be taken with the object of ending the situation. Whilst I fully realize how difficult this must be for any Government, I do ask my noble friend Lord Pakenham—whose words, I am sure, have been most carefully authorized—what he is going to do. I ask him the question: "Are you going to tell us that no concrete step can be taken, seriously aimed at securing the release of these people?" If he is, we
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shall certainly have not the slightest hesitation in supporting the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, in his Motion.
5.17 p.m.
Viscount SAMUEL: My Lords, it is well that from every quarter of the House expression should be given, however briefly, to what I believe to be the united support of your Lordships' House of the case that has been made with so much eloquence by the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart. Indeed, the large attendance of noble Lords here on a Thursday afternoon to consider this Motion is a proof of the widespread feeling which animates the members of your Lordships' House. In that they are, I feel sure, representing the sentiment of the people as a whole, for this is a matter which every citizen can understand. There are multitudes of people who know nothing about dialectical materialism, who have no views on Polish frontiers or on the question of the Dardanelles, but who can understand very fully the simple human question which is involved in this issue, a question affecting not merely a few individual families but the very principle of home life.
Someone has said that there are few things more evil than a frontier and all that a frontier implies; but to run national frontiers across families, so as to divide husbands from wives or parents from children, is surely a most detestable thing. It offends not only political principles, but the common universal sense of humanity. We hope that we may be able this afternoon to hear from the spokesman of the Government what concrete action may be taken to remedy the present intolerable situation. However energetic that action might be, I feel certain that the Government would have the support of Parliament; and not only the support of Parliament but the support of the nation; and not only of this nation but of world opinion, wherever the facts can be made fully known. Those who are responsible for the policy of Russia are committing a very grave error if they think that it will be regarded as an act of strength to refuse to do something which is obviously right, merely because other people are urging them to do it. That is not a proof of rugged independence; that is a proof of moral weakness. And in the long run, the world opinion of mankind—and that can never be a matter of indifference to

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any nation—will never regard as great any nation or any statesmanship which makes that their rule.
5.21 p.m.
Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH: My Lords, the leaders of the two largest Parties in this House have given their unqualified support to the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart. I think it right that someone from the Back Benches should add support before the noble Lord replies. I must confess that when I came here this afternoon, having always taken a great interest in this matter, I was without much hope of hearing anything constructive. I am bound to tell your Lordships that my hopes have now been revived. No more than the noble and learned Viscount opposite am I prepared to say that that is the right course; but at all events it is a hopeful course, and there is some possibility of action 'being taken. I wish only to add that, like everyone else, I cordially support the Motion.
Lord GIFFORD: My Lords, I feel that I should say one word from these Back Benches, not because I am any more in sympathy with the Motion than anyone else—for we are all in the very greatest sympathy with this Motion—but because I personally have had such fine and pathetic letters from one of the husbands concerned; and I promised him that I would support this Motion this afternoon. With the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, has put forward a really constructive and sound suggestion. It is not for me to say whether it is the right one, but I think that His Majesty's Government ought to give it the most careful consideration. I am not going to say any more, because noble Lords far more eloquent than I have already expounded this matter. However, due to the fact that I promised one of these husbands that I would give my personal support to this Motion, I have risen in order to do so.
The EarL of SELBORNE: My Lords, may I also add my support to the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart? I am quite sure that the nation as a whole cannot continue to witness the continuance of this hideous outrage without some active protest, without some protest on the lines that the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, has recommended. This is an outrage against the elementary rights of humanity that
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not even Hitler ever committed, a greater tyranny than we have witnessed from any despot in our time. It reveals Communism as the most awful tyranny with which the world is confronted at the present moment. I submit that it is impossible for us to allow representatives of the Soviet Union to enjoy the amenities such as family facilities and others that they do in this country if the Soviet Government continue in their present inhuman attitude towards women who, after all, are British subjects as well as Russian citizens.
5.24 p.m.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, I came into your Lordships' House this afternoon with a few notes in my pocket and a few ideas in my head. Since listening to this debate, I have torn up those notes and abandoned those ideas, because most of the things I wish to say have been said already by others. But, as an obscure Back-Bencher and as an Independent, like the noble Lord who moved the Motion, there is just one thing I would like to say, and that is that this is one of those debates, it seems to me, which so eminently justify your Lordships' House. There is no Party advantage to be gained from anything said here this evening. Apparently, we are discussing a matter of not very great political moment. Consequently, this is the sort of debate which could seldom, if ever, arise in another place. It is the sort of debate which constantly arises here and in which your Lordships, if I may say so, eminently justify yourselves. This has been a most remarkable discussion in which it is quite obvious that your Lordships are voicing the sentiments of the entire nation. I hope that the debate will maintain its standard to the end and that we shall see that the Government do commit themselves to doing something before we leave the Chamber this evening.
The Lord Bishop of TRURO: My Lords, I did not intend to say a word on this subject, but I feel moved to add just a few sentences. It seems to me that this is exactly a question on which energetic action should be taken. It is a moral question affecting a very small number of people. That surely is just the condition of things in which a Christian, at any rate, feels especially called upon to intervene. We understand that our relations with the great Soviet Republic are very delicate. That is so,

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and, without pre-judging the general situation at all, we fasten on this very simple and very plain moral issue. It affects but few persons, but Christians must surely feel that on this moral question, affecting but few persons, we must take the firmest possible stand. I hope that a result of this debate this afternoon will be that something really practical is done. In the view of Christian people in this country, this is the very occasion upon which a firm stand should be made.
5.28 p.m.
Lord PAKENHAM: My Lords, I think that this debate, so far as it has gone, will be long remembered by those who have listened to it. The noble and learned Viscount who spoke with so much wisdom from the Front Bench opposite pointed out that it was certain that I would have come down to your Lordships' House this afternoon with instructions and authorized to speak along certain lines. That is so, but I feel that I should be failing in my duty to all concerned, both inside this House and out of it, if I did not make even more sure than one normally does on these occasions that all that has been said would be studied by those who possess the supreme responsibility for the foreign policy of this country, subject always to the two Houses of Parliament. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, will not expect quite such a definite commitment as he asked for at the close of his speech. I think it would be quite wrong to give any kind of a snap verdict on what has been said. Although, in opening in this way, I am robbing the rest of my remarks of some of their interest, I propose to say at once that I cannot commit the Government for the moment further than this promise: that they will study with preeminent care everything that has been said this afternoon.
I have ventured on occasion to differ from the noble and learned Viscount opposite on points of economics, but I have never failed to agree with him and to learn from him on any particular humanitarian issue. I felt this afternoon that he drew on a very profound wisdom and generosity of mind in his remarks. I think it would not become me to pay tribute to all the other speakers, memorable though their speeches were, but I
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suppose that even the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart himself, has never exhibited greater strength of feeling or higher powers of eloquence than those that he placed at the disposal of the House this afternoon. I will just mention that I have seen one of these afflicted husbands at the Foreign Office, and heard from the sufferer's own lips the sad story in that particular case which is mutiplied in the Air Force. As the noble Lord said, and as the noble Viscount repeated, it is only the most unfeeling, only the most cynical—and certainly no one in this House—who would claim that here you have just a handful of human families. I fully agree that an issue of this kind takes us to the root of civilized behaviour, and it is by their behaviour in the individual case, or in the handful of cases, that great and mighty nations can be judged.
Your Lordships are aware that this question has deeply exercised His Majesty's Government for some time past. As long ago as August, 1945, the Prime Minister intervened personally in Moscow with Generalissimo Stalin on behalf of these Soviet wives. Since that time continued, but I am afraid fruitless, representations have been made. His Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow has raised the question five times in writing and eight times verbally. Field Marshal Montgomery, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, spoke personally to Generalissimo Stalin in January, 1947. In March, 1947, Mr. Bevin wrote to M. Molotov and also spoke to Generalissimo Stalin. In June of last year the Minister of State wrote to M. Kuznetsov, the leader of the Delegation of the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R., on the occasion of his visit to the United Kingdom. The husbands have very properly been active themselves, and at their suggestion a number of Members of Parliament and prominent people forwarded petitions to M. Molotov when he was in London, so far, as we all know, without any result.
What is it that lies behind the continued refusal by the Soviet Government of elementary decencies in this matter? It is not for me, and it is perhaps beyond the power of any of us, to plumb their strange, grim mentality. No reasons have ever been given officially for the Soviet refusal, except that Generalissimo Stalin has indicated that he has twice been roughly treated by the Presidium of the

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Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R. for raising the subject. If this Presidium can treat Generalissimo Stalin roughly, they must be very rough customers indeed. Generalissimo Stalin did not indicate why or how he had been roughly treated, and his remark was not very easy to understand. The Presidium of the Supreme Soviet is concerned only with such of the wives as have applied for release from Soviet citizenship. But most of the wives have not applied for release from Soviet citizenship; they have asked only for Soviet exit permits, the grant of which lies within the competence not of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet, but of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Generalissimo Stalin's remark threw no light on the reasons why the latter Ministry has persisted so steadfastly in its refusal to grant exit permits to the wives.
It is entirely incomprehensible to all of us in this House, and I quite agree it is difficult for this country to understand, why the Soviet Government should deem it against their interests to allow these women to leave Russia., or why they should refuse exit permits to some of the wives when they have previously released others. I am sure that the Soviet public would be both puzzled and surprised if they were to be told the real facts of the matter, in the same way as the British public are frankly bewildered to learn that some of these women, who are denied facilities to rejoin their husbands, are liable to tax for bearing no children. Surely that is a supremely horrible outlook.
What are the Soviet Government afraid of? Do they fear that these women would conduct anti-Soviet propaganda if they were allowed to leave the U.S.S.R.? This can hardly be so, as the wives already in this country have not shown the slightest sign of wishing to conduct propaganda. I entirely agree with the noble Viscount that if it is propaganda that the Soviet Government fear, surely they must realize that they are doing themselves far more harm in the eyes of the world, as the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said, by persisting in their present deplorable policy. One thing, of course, stands out. This question of the wives is not a purely Anglo-Soviet question. The United States, France and a number of other countries are confronted with the same problem, some of them on a
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larger scale than ourselves. They, like us, are at present unable to make any progress in securing exit permits for the Soviet wives of their nationals.
Since this is not merely a question of Anglo-Soviet relations, I think I should remind your Lordships of the steps which have been taken by His Majesty's Government to raise the question of the elementary right of husbands and wives to be united in the various United Nations bodies which are engaged on the drafting of an International Bill of Rights. The Human Rights Commission have drafted a Bill of Rights which safeguards the right of husbands and wives to live together. In particular, the draft International Declaration of Human Rights, a part of the Bill, provides that individuals shall have the right to leave their own country and, if they so desire, to acquire the nationality of any country willing to grant it. It is true that the Declaration is only a statement of ideals and will not have legally binding force, but I am sure your Lordships will share my hope that the Soviet Government will not refuse to accept this principle, although I am bound to point out that hitherto they have reserved their position. In addition, I should inform your Lordships that the United Kingdom Member of the Status of Women Sub-Commission, which has recently concluded its Session at New York, requested the inclusion of a specific guarantee of the right of married women to reside with their husbands in the country of the husband's nationality. Unfortunately, this text was not adopted, but I can assure the House that His Majesty's Government will continue to give their support to this principle.
Your Lordships will appreciate therefore that our efforts to help these unfortunate families have been many and various, and that we should not and will not hesitate to try any course which offers a reasonable promise of being effective. His Majesty's Government will continue to take every opportunity of expressing the indignation which all free men feel at the disregard of human values involved. To us in this country and, indeed, I should think to men and women of flesh and blood anywhere, such regulations separating man and wife are abominable, and indeed would be hardly credible if they had not been brought into existence. We feel that the world can never accept such unnatural theses

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as are propounded by a system that so derides the fundamental tenets of human behaviour. We will take every opportunity to express our indignation and horror at what has occurred and is occurring. But the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, has stripped the issue, and has exhibited it in all its nakedness. As he, himself, has asked, what are words when one is dealing with a society to whom the very name of Christianity is anathema and whose conduct in a case of this kind is so alien to all that we mean by civilization?
There is no question of our being anti-Russian in this. The Russian people have wonderful qualities; their leaders are shrewd and calculating men. Let us, therefore, never cease trying to find a form of appeal that will make some impression on them. But I am afraid that it would be over-optimistic to count on such a form of appeal being found in the immediate future. The noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, has recognized and has emphasized all that, and he concludes that pressure of a different kind must be resorted to. With all his great experience, and with his great record of public service behind him, he has given this matter his most careful thought and has offered the House a definite concrete proposal. May I say in passing, as an admirer of the noble Lord, if I may put it that way, that I felt that there was one passage in his speech which might be misunderstood outside. I think that in that passage his intention was perhaps not quite evident. I refer to the suggestion that where the House of Commons had gone wrong the House of Lords might set the matter right. I feel sure that in that passage of his speech the noble Lord was simply concerned with what one might call a competition in virtue. He was not attempting to override or overturn any decision adumbrated elsewhere.
I would also say one word about his reference to what he rather seemed to suggest was a confession of impotence on the part of my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. I do not think that most of us associate the Foreign Secretary with impotence. He is, as we all know, a man of great force of character, and great vigour. I would say that sometimes it is better to hold out too few hopes rather than too many.
Lord VANSITTART: I am afraid that he held out none. That is what I object to. His answers to questions amounted to zero—three-fold zero in fact, for he said "No" three times on the occasion in question, and nothing else.
Lord PAKENHAM: Having seen one of these unfortunate fathers myself this morning, I must say that I did not feel able to hold out hopes to that man. In cases of that kind I think it better not to hold out hopes until one is in a position to honour one's words. Therefore, I strongly defend the attitude adopted by the Foreign Secretary. I believe that in a matter of this kind it is better to proceed at a safe and cautious pace.
The noble Lord has come forward to-day with a new proposal. He was kind enough to give me notice of what he had in mind, and to indicate its character and the details of it, to me yesterday. But neither he nor other noble Lords will expect that within twenty-four hours the Government will have made up their minds about proposals which, I think the noble Lord himself will be the first to agree, are very drastic in character. It would be quite wrong, as I am sure all noble Lords of experience will agree, to come down firmly within twenty-four hours in relation to a proposal of that sort. All I can promise, therefore—bearing in mind that we are having a general debate on foreign affairs the week after next, when there will be an opportunity to return to this subject—is that the proposal put forward by the noble Lord will be studied with particular and especial care. We are all at one in denouncing the conduct that has produced these tragedies, and we are all at one in trying to find a solution that will actually bring the wives home here. That is the criterion that all of us are seeking to apply.
I go back now to what I said at the beginning of my speech. When a series of speeches, very weighty and very moving, coming from noble Lords of great eminence, have been made, as they have been made in this House to-day, I believe that it would be absolutely wrong of a speaker, even if he were one of the leading members of the Cabinet, to offer a firm opinion this afternoon. Therefore I must ask the House to forgive me if I content myself with a promise of careful study. I would not like to end without

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thanking the noble Lord for the way in which he has ventilated this matter and has given the House—and, may I add, the Government—the opportunity of making their feelings plain. Nor would I like to end without expressing, on behalf of the Government, my deep sympathy for those who have been treated in this manner, and who are suffering in this way, when all they have done was to fall in love and marry while they were serving this country faithfully abroad.
5.47 p.m.
The Marquess of SALISBURY: My Lords, unfortunately, I have not been able to be in the House during the whole of this discussion, but I think that the issue is quite clear. It is clear, too, I feel, that what has obviously been a most moving and impressive debate has reflected the temper not only of every noble Lord in this Chamber but of the country as a whole. It is evident that we all feel that some concrete steps must be taken. The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, in his clear and courteous speech, has described the continuous protests which the British Government have made to the Government of the Soviet Union. I certainly am not going to accuse His Majesty's Government of doing nothing. Clearly, they have made strenuous efforts to obtain alleviation of the situation of these unhappy people. But the very catalogue of protests which Lord Pakenham has given us, makes it only more evident that protests alone are completely ineffective.
I do not know whether the precise steps which Lord Vansittart has suggested this afternoon are likely to be the most effective with the Soviet Government. I have not all the facts at my disposal. But, obviously, something must be done to help these people. That, I am sure, is the feeling of everyone to-day, to whatever Party he belongs, in Britain. Words are no longer enough. Something more is needed. I quite understand that it may be impossible for the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, definitely to commit the Government to-day to specific action. The action asked for is of drastic character, though clearly justified. No doubt this matter may require consideration, but I feel strongly that it is vital that it should go on record that this House holds that something concrete should be done to help these people.
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I, personally, therefore, and I believe I speak for the great majority of noble Lords in this House, hope that Lord Vansittart will carry his Motion to a Division. I would assure the Government—and I am sure that he would, too—that this Motion is not intended to be hostile to them. It is intended to strengthen their hands, and action ought to be taken. I think there is no doubt whatever that if a great civilized country like ours were to appear even to neglect the fundamental rights and liberties of its citizens, it would lose all respect in the world, and rightly so. This is a case where we must put our foot down in whatever is the most appropriate manner. I hope your Lordships will show that by your votes to-night.
5.51 p.m.
Lord VANSITTART: My Lords, may I begin by really thanking from the bottom of my heart all those who have taken part in this debate to-night. I know it is a matter upon which we all feel deeply and I am most gratified by the width and variety of the support that has come from all parts of the House. I am deeply grateful, not only to those who have spoken, but to those who in other ways have indicated their sympathy. In normal times I should probably have accepted the response of the noble Lord who spoke for the Government and have taken his frank: and sympathetic reply into consideration. But the times are not normal and as things now stand I cannot accept that course, for reasons the whole House will follow. Already three of these marriages have been broken at the other end—and you can imagine by what means. If we drag along, the whole twelve will be broken, and that is a result I am sure neither the House nor the country will stand for.
In passing, let me say to the noble Lord that there is no reason whatever why your Lordships should not give a lead to the Commons or perhaps rectify some small error, or even large error, on their part. This is a free country and we have free speech, and we are entitied to speak from our hearts, Obviously, I cannot dream of withdrawing my Motion. I came down with that firmly in my mind. Even if I were prepared to withdraw, it would be entirely misinterpreted at the other end, and that would be fatal for the prospects of these poor people. I

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agree with what the noble Marquess, the Leader of the Opposition, said, that we could not expect a snap decision by the Government; but, as he and as Lord Simon and Lord Samuel have also indicated, the time for words is over. It has been going on for years, and some of these marriages are six years old. We cannot go on in that way, and I think the House is unanimous in the view that the time for words is over.
I am a perfectly reasonable person and I do not expect a snap decision, but I hope the Government will take my Motion into full consideration, bearing in mind that they must now act. I know that it is very difficult for them to act. It is a very embarrassing situation. But that is part of the penalty and, in this case I think, the privilege of office. So now action must be taken. Therefore, with the permission of the House, I should like to ask that in the event of my being told that there are no Papers which can be laid, I might be allowed to convert my Motion for Papers into a Resolution, which I will now read: "That this House is of the opinion that such action as may be most appropriate and effective should be taken in respect of the continued retention of British wives by the Soviet Government." And the emphasis is on the word "action." I ask whether the Government are prepared to accept that proposition or something equally good. If the House will now accept the Resolution which I have read out, it may not be necessary to divide. If I were to divide the House I think, from what has been said, that I would have a "walkover" with this Motion. May I ask the Government whether it will accept that Motion in order to obviate the necessity for a Division?
Viscount SAMUEL: Before the noble Lord replies, may I put one point? The Motion refers to British wives. As I understand the matter, these ladies are, according to British law, British wives, but in Russian law they are still regarded as Russian citizens. If the noble Lord phrases it precisely in that way it might be even more unacceptable in Russia than if a slightly different wording were used. I suggest that to the noble Lord for his consideration.
Lord VANSITTART: I am grateful for the suggestion. Would the noble Lord
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be content if I said "Soviet-born British wives"?
Viscount SAMUEL: That does not quite meet my particular point. In Russian law they are not merely Soviet born but of Soviet nationality. They are Soviet wives of British subjects.
Lord VANSITTART: I accept that amendment with gratitude—"Soviet-born wives of British subjects."
Lord PAKENHAM: I think that the Motion as originally drafted is perfectly satisfactory. I have therefore pleasure on behalf of the Government in accepting it. But may I say that I do not do that because the noble Lord would have a "walk-over" or would not have a "walk-over"—such calculations are not entering into my mind—but because I think it is a sensible and satisfactory Motion and I hope it will do much good.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord VANSITTART: I beg to move the Motion in its amended form.
Moved to resolve, That this House is of opinion that such action as may be most appropriate and effective should be taken in respect of the continued detention of Soviet-born wives of British subjects by the Soviet Government.—(Lord Vansittart.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CLERGY PENSIONS MEASURE, 1948.
The Lord Bishop of TRURO The Lord Bishop of TRURO had given Notice that he would move to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly Powers Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Clergy Pensions Measure, 1948, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, this Measure, which has been passed by the Church Assembly and favourably reported upon by the Ecclesiastical Committee, does two things: first, it consolidates the existing law, with some Amendments, and, secondly, it introduces a new system of pensions for the clergy of the future. Before 1926, if any incumbent retired he might, under certain conditions, be granted up to one-third of the income of his benefice, so that he was in effect pensioned at the expense of his

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successor and the parish. In that year, 1926, the Church introduced a contributory pensions scheme with a view to stopping that old bad system, and in a few years the bad old system will have died out. Under the existing scheme, a clergyman pays approximately 3 per cent. of his income, and, after forty years and on attaining the age of seventy, gets a pension of £200. If he dies before taking a pension, his contributions are either returned to his estate or convened into a pension for his wife or other dependant. This Measure brings into one code the six Measures under which the system, of which I have given the merest outline, is laid down and administered.
The minor Amendments which have been introduced are of a character which will bring benefit to the clergy and to iheir families. For example, some unnecessarily hampering conditions hitherto attaching to the receipt of a pension, whether contributory or not, have been swept away. In future, for instance, a clergyman in retirement will be able to undertake ecclesiastical work at a salary not exceeding £150 a year without affecting his pension. In the past he has been limited to £100. Again, any clergyman may now retire at sixty-five, if he is willing to take a much smaller pension. The income on which the pension contribution is payable is changed from that of the calendar year to the year ending March 31, which again is a convenience to the clergyman in making his return. Further, the investment powers of the Pensions Board are to be widened in conformity with the practice of other similar public bodies.
Lastly, under this head, an interesting and important new provision allows the Board, subject to the jurisdiction of the Charity Commissioners, to acquire properties and to administer them as homes for retired clergymen and their widows. The need for something of the kind is great. The use of one or two country houses has already been offered to the Pensions Board by the National Trust, and by private owners. All too many clergymen who ought to resign, and know it, are deterred from doing so by the fact that they have nowhere to go, and they feel that they have no chance of getting suitable accommodation. This House will no doubt wish the Pensions Board to proceed without undue delay in this important and urgent extension of its
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work, and I would beg the Minister of Health to render all the assistance he can, should occasion arise. That is the first heading.
The second heading is in connexion with new law. Part III creates a system of pensions for all clergymen ordained in the future, as well as for their widows and dependants. In return for a premium of 5 per cent. of their income they will each receive pensions of £200 a year at seventy, after forty years service; a pension of £50 a year will be payable to their widows, and £25 a year for each child until it reaches the age of eighteen. These figures are pitifully small, but on the one hand it is all that the clergy can afford to pay, even when the fund is subsidized by £50,000 per annum from the Church Assembly, and £100,000 from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. On the other hand, when the new State Insurance scheme comes in, the combined pension for a married clergyman retiring at the age of seventy will be approximately £360 a year. In the meantime, I am glad to say that, through the co-operation of the Pensions Board and the Dioceses, a clergyman retiring will not have less than £250 a year to live upon.
May I conclude by saying that upon this Measure receiving the approval of Parliament and the Royal Assent a full explanatory memorandum will be sent to all clergymen who will be affected by it? It will be noted that the Measure is to take effect from January 1, 1948. It is important that the new powers should become available as soon as possible, and, for technical reasons, the Measure must commence at the beginning of a year. The Measure passed all its stages in the Assembly by November, and it was then hoped that it would be possible for the Ecclesiastical Committee and Parliament to deal with it before the adjournment. That was not quite possible and, therefore, I now beg leave to move the Resolution standing in my name, to which the Ecclesiastical Committee has given its cordial assent.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly. Powers Act, 1919, this House do direet that the Clergy Pensions Measure, 1948, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Bishop of Truro.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.

CENTRAL ELECTRICITY BOARD (KEADBY GENERATING STATION LANDS) ORDER, 1947.
Special Order in respect of the compulsory acquisition of lands for a generating station in the parish of Keadby in the rural
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district of the Isle of Axholme in the county of Lincoln (Parts of Lindsey):
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
House adjourned at five minutes past six o'clock.