Sitting of 10 February 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  CARDIFF CORPORATION (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL

    DARWEN CORPORATION BILL
    GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AND HAVEN BILL
    Read a Second time, and committed.

    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL
    To be read a Second time Tomorrow.
  RAILWAY CLEARING SYSTEM
    SUPERANNUATION FUND BILL
    Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
    ROCHDALE CORPORATION BILL
    To be read a Second time Tomorrow.
  IPSWICH CORPORATION BILL (BY ORDER)
    MERTHYR TYDFIL CORPORATION BILL (BY ORDER)
    Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Premium Bull Schemes
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why under their respective premium bull schemes the terms for Scotland are less favourable than for England for percentage of purchase price, date of first payment, seasonal grants and total premiums payable.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Woodburn): The schemes operated in Scotland and in England and Wales differ in several respects and a straight comparison is difficult. I am, however, aware of the recent modifications of the English scheme and these will be taken fully into account when the Scottish scheme is next reviewed in the autumn of this year.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: If I send the right hon. Gentleman some figures, will he kindly undertake to go into them, because this matter is giving serious concern in farming circles in Scotland?
    Mr. Woodburn: Certainly.

    Shop Premises (Tenure)
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received concerning the Taylor Committee's Report on Shop Tenure in Scotland; and whether he will introduce legislation to give effect to the temporary proposals recommended therein.
    Mr. Carmichaelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has considered the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Tenure of Shop Premises in Scotland; is he aware that many shopkeepers are again being threatened with eviction at the May term because of property being sold; and has he considered the introduction of legislation to protect the small shopkeeper against unreasonable action.
    Mr. J. L. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the letter recently forwarded him by the Glasgow and District Branch of the National Federation of Retail Newsagents, Booksellers and Stationers with regard to the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Tenure of Shop Premises in Scotland; and whether he will take steps to protect shop tenants along the lines suggested by this organisation.
    Mr. Woodburn: Since the Report of the Committee was presented, I have received representations from two trade organisations, both of whom had submitted evidence to the Committee, and from six individuals. As hon. Members are aware, the Committee did not recommend immediate action but that the position should be kept under review. This is being done, but the information available does not

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    show that any change of circumstances, which would justify legislation, has occurred since the Committee reported.
    Mr. Willis: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that according to the representations made it appears that there will be a repetition this May of what happened last May, and will not he accept the interim recommendations of the Committee?
    Mr. Woodburn: As I have previously said, this Committee heard evidence, mainly from the people who purported to be the victims. They did not even hear evidence from the landlords, who were presumed to be the victimisers. Even with that limited evidence from the one side only the Committee reported that they had not sufficient justification to recommend legislation, and while I recognise that here and there there may be cases of hardship there has not, in the opinion of the Committee, been hardship to such an extent as to justify legislation.
    Mr. Carmichael: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the fact that the most prominent authority for property owners in Scotland was a member of the Committee? In view of the fact that this matter always arises during the May term, is he aware that if he fails to introduce some form of legislation he gives a blank cheque to the property owners to go on and do their very worst in the ensuing 12 months, and that anything that happens between the May terms is of no avail to the people in those properties?
    Mr. Woodburn: To my knowledge these cases have arisen for the last 50 years. This is not a new phenomenon but the question is whether it exists in sufficient numbers, whether there is sufficient injustice, to justify Parliament passing general legislation. The Committee, which was not biased in the direction which my hon. Friend suggested—it was evenly counter-balanced in the other direction—came to the conclusion that there was no such justification.
    Mr. J. L. Williams: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that for some shopkeepers this problem is now getting worse inasmuch as they are being pressed to buy not only their shops, but large blocks of property attached to the shops?
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend at least consider adopting the suggestion in Paragraph 27 of the Report
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    that the sheriff be given power to grant an interim order authorising a tenant to continue in possession of his premises for such time and on such terms as the sheriff might allow? Might that not be a way to meet the temporary difficulties which have arisen?
    Mr. Woodburn: I have considered that. What is important is not simply a question of power. The matter is not so simple as it appears on the surface. It is not easy to find a simple solution for a very complex problem about changing the ownership of property between one person and another.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Could not some interim restriction be imposed on the sale over their heads of shopkeepers' shops and property? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, many letters have been received by all of us showing the great hardship involved at the May term. Will he consider some interim restriction?
    Mr. Woodburn: I have already intimated that I am prepared to receive any evidence that this is a widespread complaint. Even though I said that some time ago I have only had six items sent to me. They are all ex parte statements. The Committee only heard ex parte statements. They were bound to regard them as secret, and could not check them up with the people against whom the allegations were made. Even on the evidence submitted there is no information whatever justifying me in providing legislation.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is not the Minister aware that when the hon. and gallant Member for the Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) puts the case of a grievance of the small man there must be something in it? Although it has been going on for 50 years, we put the right hon. Gentleman in office to help to remedy the grounds of the complaint.
    Mr. Woodburn: One does not take a steam hammer to crush a peanut. We have to be satisfied that there is sufficient justification for general legislation to cover this complaint. I have made an offer to the House that I am willing to receive evidence, and as soon as evidence accumulates which would justify legislation it will be considered. I cannot come to the House or the Government

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    and propose legislation unless there is evidence that some legislation would be justified.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: In considering this matter will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that some hon. Members are also receiving letters from quite humble people who happen to own property and who are put under great disability at the present time, so that their case can be considered in fairness with the other side of the case?
    Mr. Rankin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that since the Committee reported the National Federation of Retail Newsagents, Booksellers and Stationers report many new cases, and have these been drawn to his notice? Also, is he aware that they firmly believe that the situation will, now deteriorate very rapidly indeed unless action is taken?
    Mr. Woodburn: This House cannot provide legislation on the grounds of beliefs. We must have some evidence of facts. These organisations gave evidence before the Committee. The Committee was not able to verify that evidence because they were bound to secrecy, but even with the evidence before them it did not provide justification for legislation. I have asked hon. Members of the House and others with information available to produce it. I cannot be aware of cases until they are produced to me.

    Proposed Road, North Uist
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now state when work on the proposed Cheesebay-Lochportain road in the Isle of North Uist is to commence.
    Mr. Woodburn: I am aware of the need for the proposed road but I regret that I cannot say at present when this work is likely to proceed.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the Minister aware that in this State-owned estate where the Department of Agriculture is the landlord there has been an unparalleled neglect of the tenants? Two years ago a grant was offered and it was expected that it would work. Everybody is shocked
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    by the paralysis in taking a simple decision, and cannot the Secretary of State try to amend the neglect of 50 years on the part of hon. Members on the other side of the House?
    Mr. Woodburn: I am doing my best. The decision in regard to this question is involved with other decisions which are rather more complicated. I am afraid it is impossible to say any more today.

    Western Regional Hospital Board (Assistant Secretary)
    Mr. William Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why, in view of the fact that according to official advertisement 14th February was the closing date for receiving applications for the post of assistant secretary to the Western Regional Hospital Board, it was announced, on 3rd February, that the appointment had been made and full details given to the Press.
    Mr. Woodburn: This is strictly a matter for the Regional Board, but I am informed that they intend to have two assistant secretaries. The first post has been filled, and the advertisement referred to in the Question relates to the second.
    Mr. Ross: If that is so, can the Secretary of State give us any information as to whether or not the second post was duly advertised in the same way as the other one?
    Mr. Woodburn: I could not say without notice. This is a matter which is the business of the regional board and not strictly my responsibility, but I would be willing to inquire and inform the hon. Gentleman.

    Education (Grants)
    Mr. Gilzeanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the amount of each grant made to schools, not under the management of education authorities, and payable from the Education (Scotland) Fund Miscellaneous Grants Provisional Regulations, 1946, on the most recent occasion.
    Mr. Woodburn: With the hon. Member's permission I will circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the information:

    GRANTS IN RESPECT OF THE YEAR 1946–47.

    Grant.

    Secondary Schools.

    £

    Aberdeen, Queen's Cross Secondary School for girls

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    3,854

    Aberdeen, Robert Gordon's College

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    20,311

    Crieff, Morrison's Academy for Boys

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    11,688

    Crieff, Morrison's Academy for Girls

    Dollar Academy

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    17,820

    Dundee High School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    14,215

    Edinburgh, George Heriot's School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    *30,539

    Edinburgh, George Watson's Boys' College

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    *85,791

    Edinburgh Daniel Stewart's College

    Edinburgh Mary Erskine School

    Edinburgh George Watson's Ladies' College

    Glasgow, Hutchesons' Boys' Grammar School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    *27,410

    Glasgow, Hutchesons Girls' Grammar School

    Glasgow, St. Aloysius' College

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    9,515

    Troon, The Marr College

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    10,887

    Residential Special Schools.

    Edinburgh, Royal Blind School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    7,214

    Edinburgh, Donaldson's School for the Deaf

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    *14,000

    Glasgow, East Park Homes School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    *8,825

    Roxburgh, Barns Hostel School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    *968

    West Lothian, Trefoil School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    *465

    Orphanage Schools.

    Banff, Aberlour Orphanage Episcopal School

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    3,164

    Dundee, Dundee Orphan Institution

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    749

    * Estimate = grants not finally determined.

    Housing
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why the date of the completion of the temporary housing programme in Scotland, as given in Cmd. 7304, is several months later than the date given for England and Wales.
    Mr. Woodburn: The main reason is that Scotland took up more than one-fifth of the total programme and is building more temporary houses than England and Wales in proportion both to the population and the available labour.
    Mr. Thornton Kemsley: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that dates for the completion of housing schemes, either in Scotland or in England, just do not mean a thing to this Government?
    Mr. Woodburn: The trouble is that we have to rely on private enterprise to build the houses and, naturally, they, like the Government, have to depend on materials and labour.
    Mr. Willis: Can my right hon. Friend say what special steps are being taken to get on with this matter in the future when, according to the answer given last week, there are between 2,000 and 3,000 temporary houses in store?
    Mr. Woodburn: There have been shortages of glass, due to some physical accidents, and there have been shortages of hard wall plaster and several other components. That has held up the houses. Pressure is being brought to bear on all the private enterprise firms concerned to make the best of the situation and, needless to say, no time will be lost in getting these houses completed.
    Mr. Bossom: Are any of these houses being held up for lack of timber?
    Mr. Woodburn: Not so much now. It is hard wall plaster and glass which are the main elements causing delay in the completion of houses at the moment.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the Ministry of Works at Edinburgh which is at the basis of most of the trouble?
    Mr. Woodburn: I am not aware of that. I shall be surprised if the hon. Member can produce any evidence to support his statement.
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give the dates at which contracts for the Orlit House were placed; the dates at which the first houses in fulfilment of these contracts were conpleted; and the subsequent rate of completion.
    Mr. Woodburn: The answer involves a table of figures and, with the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Willis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the rate of completion of these houses is about five per month over the past two years, does he not think it is

    Local Authority.

    Number of Houses Contracted for.

    Date Contract Placed.

    Progress.

    Date.

    Number of Houses completed.

    Edinburgh

    410

    23rd August, 1945

    1.1.47

    4

    15.1.47

    6

    12.3.47

    14

    16.4.47

    28

    7.5.47

    32

    4.6.47

    40

    25.6.47

    48

    16.7.47

    52

    6.8.47

    56

    19.9.47

    64

    10.10.37

    72

    7.11.47

    90

    28.11.47

    102

    31.1.48

    126

    Stirling County

    90

    21st May, 1946.

    28.11.47

    4

    16.1.48

    6

    31.1.48

    8

    File County

    22

    24th May, 1946.

    31.1.48

    Nil

    Scottish Housing Group (Various Authorities).

    2,800

    16.12.47

    3

    31.1.48

    4

    Up to date, a total of 138 Orlit houses have been completed in Scotland, and 1,708 are under construction.

    U.S.A. Gift Potatoes (Licence Refusal)
    Captain Marsdenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why the cargo of potatoes offered to this country by the citizens of Maine, U.S.A., to be shipped in the "Yankee Friendship" was refused.
    Mr. Woodburn: The danger of Colorado Beetle infestation has made it necessary to refuse applications for licences to land in Scotland potatoes grown in the U.S.A.
    Captain Marsden: Is the Minister aware that the potato first came from America with Sir Walter Raleigh? Does he realise that this particular cargo underwent every possible test in the United States, and does he mean that what is good enough for the generous inhabitants of Maine is not good enough for Gorbals?
    Mr. Woodburn: Gorbals requires as good a standard of food as Westminster. It is
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    time something was done to get much speedier results?
    Mr. Woodburn: These houses are of pretty solid construction and not so easily finished as what are called temporary houses. We are going on as quickly as we can.
    Following is the answer
    more important to protect one million tons of potatoes than to safeguard the importation of an odd 10. Clearly, it is most important to preserve the stock of potatoes in this country, and especially seed potatoes which come from Scotland. We cannot take any risks at all in importing potatoes from outside.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: While I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in the importance of protecting seed potatoes, would it not be possible for an inspection to be made simply and quickly by the Department of Agriculture if these gifts were sent over?
    Mr. Woodburn: If there had been a large quantity of potatoes which would have made a vital contribution to the food position in this country it might have been possible. Since it was only a token gift of potatoes there was no justification

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    in taking a risk for the sake of allowing in that particular token gift, when the danger was so great.

  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS

    Appeal (Brigadier Gillibrand)
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Minister of Pensions what were the special circumstances attending the appeal of Mrs. Gillibrand for a pension in respect of the death of her husband, Brigadier Gillibrand, which induced him to reverse his original decision and grant the pension and the appropriate allowances.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions (Mr. Blenkinsop): My right hon. Friend gave very careful consideration to the observations made by the learned judge when remitting Mrs. Gillibrand's case to a pensions appeal tribunal for re-hearing and came to the conclusion that it was desirable to spare her the necessity of further litigation. In all the circumstances he decided that a pension ought to be awarded.
    Sir T. Moore: While I welcome this typically humane decision, surely it does not mean that both publicity and pertinacity are required to achieve justice?
    Mr. Blenkinsop: No, Sir, certainly not. It means that it is possible to consider this case and any comparable cases, in a new light due to the words of the learned judge.

    Statistics
    Brigadier Petoasked the Minister of Pensions what was the total number of pensions in payment on 31st December, 1920; and how many pensioners among that number had, on 3rst December, 1947, been granted in respect of post disability marriage, wife allowance and children's allowances, respectively.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Approximately 1,175,000 disablement pensions were in payment at 31st December, 1920. At 31st December, 1947, over 164,000 wives' allowances and 118,000 children's allowances in respect of the 1914–18 war had been granted as the result of the provision which recognised for pension purposes the wives and children of post injury marriages. It is not possible to
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    say without an examination of 350,000 ledger sheets and nearly 170,000 files how many pensioners who benefited by the new provision were in receipt of pension in 1920. My right hon. Friend is afraid he could not justify the labour which such a task would involve.
    Brigadier Petoasked the Minister of Pensions what was the number of and annual cost of allowances to wives and children, respectively, of disability pensioners on 31st December, 1920, and 31st December, 1947.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: It is estimated that on 31st December, 1920, allowances were being paid in respect of approximately 406,000 wives and 865,000 children of disabled pensioners at an annual cost of £3,900,000 and £5,140,000 respectively. On 31st December, 1947, the corresponding numbers for both World Wars were 528,000 and 456,000 and the annual cost was about £5,272,000 and £3,248,000, respectively.

    Disability Pension (Basic Rate)
    Mr. Heathcoat Amoryasked the Minister of Pensions what considerations led to the fixing of the basic rate for 100 per cent. disability at 45s. on 6th February, 1946.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: As indicated in the reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Chertsey (Captain Marsden) on 18th November last, the basic pension rate for no per cent. disablement for the war pensioner was increased to 45s. a week in February, 1946, to bring it into line with the rate laid down for the industrially disabled pensioner under the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act, 1946.
    Mr. Amory: Are not the two things entirely different and is it not undeniable that the basic rate of 45s. is not generous by any test? Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the war disabled were promised generous treatment and that public opinion in the country wants them to have it and will not grudge the cost?
    Mr. Blenkisop: Yes, Sir, but the hon. Member must remember that the extra allowances paid to disablement pensioners are much in addition to what is afforded under the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act.
    Brigadier Peto: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the question of the basic 45s. is not so much one that affects those drawing a 100 per cent. pension, but those who draw pensions which are lower down the scale, and if the basic rate is increased would it not affect, in proportion, those who draw only 9s. a week now?
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Certainly, but again it must be remembered that the great bulk of the pensioners—even 100 per cent. pensioners—are earning full wages in addition to what they get from us by way of pension.
    Sir Ronald Ross: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the basic rate of pension has not kept pace with the increased cost of living, and should not the Minister consider the case of those who are not earning any money and are only in receipt of pension?
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Certainly. Indeed, we pay extra allowances to those who are not earning. The hon. Member suggests that these pensions have not kept pace with the increased cost of living, but I am afraid that he will find that, by strict examination of the figures, that is not so.

    Hardship Allowance
    Mr. Amoryasked the Minister of Pensions why pensioners disabled in the 1914–18 war are ineligible for the hardship allowance.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: In view of the lapse of time it would be quite impossible in the case of 1914 war pensioners generally to apply a provision which requires a comparison between the pensioner's occupation prior to his war service and his occupation after his war service, and this is fully appreciated by the ex-Service organisations with whom my right hon. Friend has had discussions.
    Mr. Amory: Will the hon. Gentleman remember that the disabled of the 1914–18 war, owing to their more advanced age, are in the greatest need of assistance and should have all the benefits which are available to the younger men who were disabled in the last war?
    Mr. Blenkinsop: We are well aware of the difficulty of this position, and we are very ready to have further discussions with the organisations concerned who appreciate our difficulties in the matter.

    Widows (Alternative Pensions)
    Mr. Championasked the Minister of Pensions if he will make an addition to the rates paid to widows under the alterative pensions scheme (1914 World War) to meet the increased cost of living.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: As the alternative pensions payable to widows are higher than the standard rates my right hon. Friend sees no reason for increasing them.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Operations, Far East (Despatches)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for War the reason for the continued delay in the publication of the despatches about the Malayan campaign.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell): The despatch from Air Chief Marshal Sir Robert Brooke-Popham on Operations in the Far East from 17th October, 1940, to 27th December, 1941, and the related despatch from Major-General C. M. Maltby on Operations in Hong Kong from 8th to 25th December, 1941, were published on 22nd January and 29th January, respectively. General Sir Archibald Wavell's despatch to the Supreme Allied Command on Operations in the South West Pacific from 15th January to 25th February, 1942, will be published on the 24th of this month, and Lieutenant-General Percival's despatch on Operations of the Malaya Command 8th December, 1941, to 15th February, 1942, will be published as a supplement to the "London Gazette" on the 26th of this month, together with Naval and Air Force despatches relating to that phase of the war in the Far East.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Secretary of State confirm that that completes the despatches and that these, and the ones already published, are published in full?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am not quite sure whether that completes all the despatches.
    Mr. Keeling: What about the second point—are they published in full?
    Mr. Shinwell: So far as I know, the despatches are published in full.
    Sir Stanley Reed: Will the Secretary of State give personal attention to the publication of a full account of this disastrous

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    campaign in justice to the many gallant men whose lives were lost in it and whose actions have not been fully appreciated?
    Mr. Shinwell: When the hon. Member sees these despatches published in the supplement to the "London Gazette," he will be able to form an opinion whether or not they are accurate.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the publication of a map with these despatches so that they may be more easily followed?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am under the impression that maps are supplied with some of the despatches, but I will look into the matter.

    Engineer Stores Depot, Liphook
    General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Secretary of State for War what is the number of men employed at the Engineer Stores Depot, Liphook; whether all these men are kept fully employed; what are the average wages per man per week; and what is the cost of bringing them daily to Liphook by train and lorry from Portsmouth and elsewhere.
    Mr. Shinwell: Approximately 700 men are fully employed by this depot on sites at Liphook, Longmoor and Bordon. Their average wage is £5 a week. The net cost to the Department of the assisted travel scheme is approximately £14 a day.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: Is the Secretary of State aware that most of these men say freely that there is very little to do at Liphook and that they are not fully employed; further, is he aware that many of them spend their time playing cards all the day, and are there not other better forms of employment which could be found for them?
    Mr. Shinwell: I have looked into some of these allegations and I find, so far as my information enables me to say, that the men are not under-employed. At the same time I assure the hon. and gallant Member that I am having a thorough investigation made.

    Personnel, Paris
    Mr. Sidney Shephardasked the Secretary of State for War the number of British troops stationed in Paris and their duties.
    Mr. Shinwell: It is contrary to practice to disclose the number of British troops in a particular area. British military personnel in Paris are engaged on work in connection with graves services, claims against the British Army, liaison with the French Army and various administrative duties.
    Mr. Shephard: Will the Minister satisfy himself, in view of the limited manpower of this country, that these men are really needed in Paris?
    Mr. Shinwell: They would not be there if they were not required. I am advised that the actual numbers are very small, and, in the course of a few months, we shall reduce them to insignificant proportions.
    Mr. Piratin: May I ask the Minister if he would confer with the Minister of State, who last week gave me an answer on a similar Question regarding the number of troops in Europe and said they were only stationed in Greece and Trieste? Would he consult his right hon. Friend in order to present the House of Commons with reliable information?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am always ready to confer with any of my colleagues.

    Military Police, Manchester (Complaint)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for War how many military police were on duty and present at 1.45 p.m. on Monday, 12th January, 1948, at London Road Station, Manchester; if he is aware that the sergeant spoke to the men who were asked for their passes in an insolent manner; why was the captain who was present not asked for his pass; and if he will hold an investigation into all these circumstances.
    Mr. Shinwell: Two lance corporals of the Corps of Royal Military Police were on duty at this station at the time mentioned, and a sergeant for the area was visiting the station. This sergeant was a Regular soldier of excellent record, whose conduct has never been the subject of complaint. As regards the third part of the Question, officers do not have leave passes.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of the boys serving in the ranks come from as good

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    homes as any of the officers, and has not the time arrived when they should have equality of treatment? Is he further aware that a number of railwaymen and myself counted at least five military police there, and, in view of the serious manpower shortage, does he not think that that is overdoing it?
    Mr. Shinwell: All I can say is that I am advised that, at the time mentioned by my hon. Friend, only two lance corporals of the Military Police were on duty at the station. There may have been others there, but they were not on duty, at any rate, on our behalf. As regards equality of treatment, I think my hon. Friend will acquit me of any desire to prevent equality.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Would the right hon. Gentleman ask his hon. Friend to tell him when a sergeant is considered to be insolent and when he is not?
    Mr. Ellis Smith: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman had been there and had heard the sergeant, he would have had no hesitation in describing him as insolent.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Will the Minister place in the Library a transcript of what the sergeant said?
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is what we would expect from the editor of the "Spectator"?
    Mr. Speaker: These personal allusions are really quite improper, and should not be made.

    Deciphering Department, War Office
    Mr. Bossomasked the Secretary of State for War if he is satisfied that the members of the deciphering department of the War Office are now fully employed and have been so for the last six months.
    Mr. Shinwell: Yes. The staff has been reduced by 15 per cent. during the last six months, and will be still further reduced during the next few months.
    Mr. Bossom: Can the Minister say how many people are employed in that service at the present time?
    Mr. Shinwell: It is not the custom to publish the numbers.
    Mr. Bossom: Is the Minister satisfied that a 15 per cent. reduction will provide work for all these other officials, because they do not seem to think so?
    Mr. Shinwell: If there is a conflict of opinion, we will naturally take note of what the hon. Member has said.

    Forces, Cyprus
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Secretary of State for War if he will pay a visit to Cyprus in the near future to inspect the conditions of our armed Forces in that island.
    Mr. Shinwell: I shall give this proposal favourable consideration.

    National Service Intake (Hospital Cases)
    Mr. Cuthbertasked the Secretary of State for War if he will furnish the numbers of National Service intake, who are admitted to hospital, during the first three months of their service, and the mortality rate during the same period.
    Mr. Shinwell: I regret that this information is not readily available and could not be obtained without a disproportionate amount of work.

    Houndstone Camp, Yeovil
    Sir G. Jeffreysasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, at Houndstone Camp, near Yeovil, there is no heating in the billets and consequently nowhere to dry wet clothes; that the bathing facilities are inadequate for troops who are often wet and dirty through exposure to weather in the course of their training; that water comes through the walls of billets, and that these are often in darkness through lack of electric light bulbs; and whether he will take steps with a view to the early improvement of the accommodation and of the conditions under which the troops live at this camp.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am having investigations made into this.

    Training Area, Thetford
    Lieut.-Colonel Geoffrey Clifton-Brownasked the Secretary of State for War if the proposal to acquire 23,400 acres in Suffolk, south of Thetford, has now been modified; and what is the area now suggested.
    Mr. Shinwell: My Department's proposals to use land for training purposes south-west of Thetford have been reduced to small arms ranges at Thetford Warren and Barton Mills, and a mortar range at Berners Heath. Part of the Berners Heath area will be used in conjunction with the R.A.F. The total area, additional to the prewar Air Ministry leased land at Berners Heath, is, approximately, 2,000 acres. These amended proposals are being considered by the Inter-Departmental Committee on Services Land Requirements.

    Explosion, Saxelby (Inquiry)
    Mr. Anthony Nuttingasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet received the report of the court of inquiry on the explosion of mine fuses at Saxelby, Leicestershire; what are the findings of the court; and whether he will give an assurance that only soldiers with considerable experience of explosives will be employed upon this highly dangerous type of work.
    Mr. Shinwell: The report of the court of inquiry has been completed, but I have not yet received the views of the military authorities in the Command concerned. When I have had an opportunity to consider their comments, I will write to the hon. Member. As regards the last part of the Question, only personnel of considerable experience are employed in work of a technical nature in connection with the disposal of ammunition, and Royal Pioneer Corps personnel employed as labour in handling ammunition boxes do so under expert supervision.
    Mr. Nutting: Will the Minister ensure that that assurance is followed up in every case, and is he aware that, out of the three people killed in this disaster, two were recruits, one with only seven weeks' service, who could not possibly have had considerable experience of explosives?
    Mr. Shinwell: I think we might defer judgment until we see the report.

    Venereal Disease (Treatment Centres)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for War how many hospitals there are for the treatment of venereal disease for soldiers; how many nurses are
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    employed in these hospitals; and how many cases were treated in 1947.
    Mr. Shinwell: There are no military hospitals which treat venereal diseases alone. Patients who suffer from such illness are treated at special centres, of which there are, approximately, 27 at home and overseas. Treatment, except for female cases and complicated cases needing ward treatment, is carried out by male special treatment orderlies, and not by nurses; I cannot readily state the number of special treatment orderlies so employed. The number of cases treated from January to November, 1947, was about 34,700. Figures for December, 1947, have not yet been received.
    Mr. Hughes: Will the Minister say if there is any increase in the figures for the Army in Germany?
    Mr. Shinwell: In recent months there has been a reduction.

    Incident, Hanover (Disciplinary Action)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if he has now completed his investigation into the incident at Walsrode, Hanover, in October, 1947, which culminated in the beating-up, during an interrogation lasting from 2.30 a.m. to 5.15 a.m., of a 20-year-old student, Herr Werner Kleindienst; and if he will make a full statement.
    Mr. Shinwell: A full investigation has been made into this affair. There is evidence of undesirable methods having been employed in the course of the interrogation, and disciplinary action has been taken against the officer and noncommissioned officers concerned.
    Mr. Driberg: Could my right hon. Friend say what that disciplinary action consisted of, and will he also take steps to make it widely known in the district that such action has been taken, in the interests of showing the German people concerned that justice does operate?
    Mr. Shinwell: Without specifying the actual nature of the disciplinary action, it is certainly not to the officer's advantage.
    Mr. Driberg: Could my right hon. Friend answer the second part of my supplementary question?
    Mr. Stokes: Can my right hon. Friend say whether this internment camp has taken the place of Bad Nenndorf?
    Mr. Shinwell: It is not the same thing.
    Mr. Vane: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what was the purpose of this interrogation, and who was conducting it?
    Mr. Shinwell: As regards the purpose of the interrogation, it was because of an incident which occurred—as contained in the Question—in Hanover in October, 1947, which culminated, it is alleged, in the beating up of the prisoner. As regards who conducted the investigation, I have no information before me as to that, but, no doubt, it was conducted by a proper authority.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Will my right hon. Friend consider the undesirability of leaving this officer and these men in charge in any capacity at all in Germany, and will he bring them back and give them jobs in this country? They are quite unfit to be in charge of Germans.
    Mr. Shinwell: Obviously, if they are unfit to be in charge of Germans, they are unfit to be in charge of anybody. The fact is that the treatment has been very summary in character, and I imagine it will have a salutary effect.
    Mr. Driberg: Would my right hon. Friend be good enough to answer the second part of my supplementary question, which was, will he make this widely known in the neighbourhood concerned, so that it may be seen that justice is done?
    Mr. Shinwell: I imagine that Questions and answers in the House of Commons are published in Germany.
    Mr. Vane: Even though the Minister cannot tell us anything about the interrogation, can he tell us about the incident?
    Mr. Shinwell: If the hon. Member wants a full report, I can no doubt put it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I will look into the possibility, though I cannot make any definite promise.
    Mr. Benn Levy: Would my right hon. Friend say what reason there can be for withholding from the House the nature of the disciplinary action taken?
    Mr. Shinwell: I will also look into that.

  PRISONERS OF WAR

    Repatriation
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for War how many prisoners of war were repatriated from Great Britain and Middle East, respectively, during January 1948.
    Mr. Shinwell: Approximately 19,200 prisoners of war were repatriated from Great Britain during January. The bulk of those due to be repatriated from the Middle East did not leave, owing to a shipping delay, until 1st February; including those who left on that date, the total was approximately 2,500.

    Attempted Escapes (Delayed Pay Credits)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that about twenty German prisoners, who escaped while in the Middle East in July, 1947, and were recaptured and transferred to Britain, were punished by the postponement of their repatriation and the forfeiture of all the money credited to them on account of work done before their escape; and if he will now, bearing in mind that postponement of repatriation is itself a substantial punishment, consider restoring their former credits to such of these men as have worked and conducted themselves well since their recapture.
    Mr. Shinwell: The credits of these prisoners of war have not in fact been forfeited. There was some delay in their accounts being received from the Middle East, but steps are being taken to enter the appropriate credits in their accounts in this country.
    Mr. Driberg: If any of them should already have been repatriated before these steps are completed, would my right hon. Friend say that he will be good enough to make sure that the credits are forwarded to them in some way?
    Mr. Shinwell: That sounds a little hypothetical to me, but I will take note of it.
    Mr. Driberg: It is not hypothetical; it is factual.
    Mr. Keeling: Is the Secretary of State aware than even delay in crediting an escaper with the money to which he is entitled is contrary to the Geneva Convention?
    Mr. Shinwell: Delay was caused by the acts of the men themselves.

    Civilian Agricultural Workers
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will nominate representatives of the prisoners of war themselves to serve in the bodies which have been set up in each agricultural executive committee's area to decide which prisoners of war shall be allowed to remain in this country as alien civilians from among those who have volunteered to do this.
    Mr. Shinwell: The committees, as they are at present constituted, consist of unbiased persons best qualified to judge the suitability of the individual applicants. Prisoners of war are available to give evidence to these committees.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my right hon. Friend aware that prisoners are very rarely called into consultation about this matter, and that those bodies about which he spoke do not function as they should? In point of fact, the camp labour officer is very often the sole judge of which prisoners shall stay here, and which shall go back to Germany. If he would consider adopting my suggestion, the prisoners' confidence in the decisions of these committees would be very greatly increased, and there would be no longer a sense of unfairness.
    Mr. Shinwell: It is only open to us to judge the efficacy of the committee's operations by the results. As far as I am aware, no sense of unfairness has been felt as the result of their activities. However, if my hon. Friend can produce some specific complaints, I will certainly go into them.

  POLISH FORCES

    Repatriation
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for War how many Poles are stationed outside the United Kingdom; and when does he expect them to be returned to this country or repatriated.
    Mr. Shinwell: The number is 3,235, some of whom have chosen to remain abroad as immigrants or will be returned direct to Poland. I hope that the movement of the rest to the United Kingdom will be completed in the next two months.
    Mr. Piratin: With regard to those who propose to remain as immigrants, is it not the practice of the Ministry, with regard to British troops, that they must return to the place of mobilisation before demobilisation, and would he institute that practice with these men, as, otherwise, they might easily be a nuisance in the Middle East?
    Mr. Shinwell: I doubt whether I have the power to enforce their return to this country, but I will take what measures are open to me.
    Sir T. Moore: Does this Question include the number of Poles stationed in Russia?
    Mr. Shinwell: I cannot say.

    Military Welfare Funds
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to make a statement in connection with the disposal of the Polish military welfare funds; if he will state the amount of the funds; and what sums have been allocated to those Poles who have returned to Poland.
    Mr. Shinwell: Further difficulties have arisen in connection with these funds since my predecessor replied to a Question about them by the hon. Member on 29th July last. It is possible that they may be the subject of legal proceedings, and I regret, therefore, that I am not in a position to make a statement.

    Maintenance, United Kingdom
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for War, (1) whether he can give a date by which all members of the Polish Forces who do not return to Poland will cease to be maintained by the British taxpayer;
    (2) how many members of the Polish Forces have not agreed either to return to Poland or to join the Polish Resettlement Corps.
    Mr. Shinwell: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to a Question by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) yesterday. The great majority of the members of the Polish Forces still in this country are now at civilian work, and the resettlement of the small balance is proceeding as rapidly as possible.
    Mr. Hynd: As the reply given yesterday gave only a general answer, can the Minister give any outside date by which this matter will be cleared up?
    Mr. Shinwell: I hardly think my hon. Friend is accurate about the reply given yesterday. It was not general in character; it was very complete, because it said that approximately 1,400 Poles in this country administered by my Department have refused to be repatriated and had not entered the Resettlement Corps.
    Mr. Tiffany: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Poles are being denied facilities to join the Resettlement Corps?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am not aware of that.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is it a fact that the only members of the Polish Forces now in this country are those who are to be deported by the Home Secretary?
    Mr. Shinwell: I think that is a question which should be put down to my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask if my right hon. Friend will take all the steps he possibly can to ensure that these artificial obstacles against the employment of Poles are removed?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am not aware of artificial obstacles.
    Professor Savory: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that hundreds of these Poles have informed us that they are afraid for their security if they return to Poland, and can he do anything to reassure them on this point?
    Mr. Shinwell: It may be that they are apprehensive of what will happen; I cannot say, but that should not preclude them from rendering what useful services they can while in this country.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Is the Minister in a position to say how many are in Scotland, and how they are employed there?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am afraid not without notice.
    Mr. Hynd: Can the Minister give some assurance that there will be some limit to the time during which these Poles will be kept at the expense of the British taxpayer?
    Mr. Shinwell: The numbers are being gradually run down, and we are doing everything possible to have them repatriated or absorbed into civilian work in this country. It is quite impossible to make a firm commitment as to the actual date when the whole matter will be resolved.
    Mr. McKinlay: Will the Minister give favourable consideration—when dealing with this aspect of the Poles who will not work—to directing them to the dog tracks, along with the other spivs?
    Mr. Collins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in areas where these Poles are in encampments, the local inhabitants are seriously perturbed at the fact that there does not appear to be any inclination on their part to work, and that that is one of the reasons for the pressure to get a date by which this matter may be finally resolved?
    Mr. Shinwell: It may be that there are some recalcitrants among them, but when they are recalcitrant they are on reduced pay and certain facilities are not made available to them as to the others. We must make it quite clear that we cannot generalise about the Poles. Many of than are doing useful work.
    Mr. Rankin: Can my right hon. Friend tell us of any Poles who have returned to Poland to the danger of their personal safety?

  TERRITORIAL AND AIR FORCE ASSOCIATIONS (BUILDING)
  Sir Ralph Glynasked the Secretary of State for War whether he proposes to arrange for an increased allocation of materials and labour to enable Territorial and Air Force Associations to overtake the repairs needed to put quarters, drill halls, etc., in order and to provide the facilities needed in the way of new buildings, etc., by the date when the men leaving the Regular Army will become the liability of these associations so far as accommodation is concerned.
  Mr. Shinwell: One of the cuts imposed by the restriction of Capital Investment (Cmd. 7268) will be a reduction in the contract non-housing labour employed by the War Department from a present total of 5,000 to 3,500 by 1st June, 1948. This

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  will make it impossible to increase the allocation of labour to Territorial Army services without seriously affecting the Regular Army. While, however, it is unlikely that Territorial and Auxiliary Force Associations' demands can be met in full, their needs will be given every possible consideration. The provision of quarters forms part of the national housing programme, and is therefore governed by the priorities laid down in the White Paper.
  Sir R. Glyn: May I ask the Secretary of State whether he will ask Territorial Associations throughout the United Kingdom to render him a statement on the position regarding deficiencies in accommodation, as it will be impossible for them to take up the burdens which will be imposed upon them in a few months' time?
  Mr. Shinwell: I do not require to ask them, because they are rendering these statements almost every day, and I am fully conscious of the need for accommodation in order to house the Territorial Forces.

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING

    National Parks Committee (Recommendations)
    Mr. Eric Fletcherasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning what steps he is proposing to take to give effect to the recommendations of the National Parks Committee.
    The Minister of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Silkin): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on 28th January to the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge), of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: That reply to me was really not a very satisfactory one. I think I heard the Minister just now refer to it. Will he not try to adopt a positive attitude and outlook towards this question and not the negative one which was exemplified in this original answer?
    Mr. Silkin: I gave the hon. Member the best reply I could.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: It was a very bad one.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the serious concern in the country that the report of this Committee will not be adequately implemented and will he agree to meet the organisations concerned at some future date to allay these suspicions?
    Mr. Silkin: Surely, before it can be adequately implemented it has to be adequately considered, and that is what is happening.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Will the right hon. Gentleman at least say whether he is proposing to set up a National Parks Commission and local national parks committees?
    Mr. Silkin: That is the very point I am considering.

    Access to Countryside (Committee)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning what steps he is proposing to take to give effect to the recommendations of the Special Committee on Footpaths and Access to the Countryside.
    Mr. Silkin: I am not yet in a position to reply to my hon. Friend. I am at present considering the recommendations of the Special Committee on Footpaths and Access to the Countryside.
    Mr. Fletcher: Can my right hon. Friend give any indication when he will be able to do so, in view of the very great interest taken?
    Mr. Silkin: Not yet.
    Mr. Warbey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this matter is one of great urgency, particularly in South Bedfordshire, where historic public rights of way and noted beauty spots are being threatened with devastation by the extension of chalk workings?
    Mr. Silkin: I am aware of the evil and that is why the matter is receiving consideration.

    Grass Drying Plant, Cumberland
    Mr. Wilfrid Robertsasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning what are the objections on planning grounds to the proposed grass drying plant of the Milk Marketing Board to be erected

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    at Blencogo, Cumberland; and will he take action to ensure that this enterprise will be able to function this summer.
    Mr. Silkin: I am informed that the objections by the Planning Committee to the Cumberland County Council relate solely to the external appearance of the building. The possibility of improving the design is being investigated with officials of the Milk Marketing Board, and I understand that agreement between the parties is likely to be reached in the course of the next few days.
    Mr. Roberts: Can the Minister say whether this alteration in the plan may not delay the operation of this project so long as to make it useless for the coming summer and, if so, will he take action to override the Planning Committee?
    Mr. Silkin: If I take the matter over it may result in even more delay. This is a matter between the local authority and the applicant. I think it is best to leave it to be settled between them.

  PROPOSED BIOLOGICAL SERVICE
  Mr. Keelingasked the Lord President of the Council whether His Majesty's Government accept the recommendation of the Committee on the Conservation of Nature in England and Wales for the constitution of a Biological Service.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): This matter is still under consideration. I am not yet able to announce the Government's decision.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Government Borrowing (Interest Rate)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent the issue of Railway Compensation Stock on a 3 per cent. basis, indicates the abandonment of the previous 2½ per cent. cheap money policy; and if he will give an assurance that the new 3 per cent. rate for long-dated Government borrowing will be held.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Cripps): The terms of issue of British Transport Stock reflect the price
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    of Government securities at the date of issue. There has been no general change in Government borrowing policy and I am not prepared to anticipate the level of future interest rates.
    Mr. Osborne: Is it the intention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to let the gilt-edged market find its own level?
    Sir S. Cripps: My intention is to proceed as we are at present.

    National Coal Board (Publicity Costs)
    Sir John Mellorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what publicity for the benefit of the National Coal Board was paid for out of the public revenue between 1st January and 1st October, 1947; what was the cost; and what sum was spent by the Exchequer for coal mining publicity during the corresponding period of 1946.
    Sir S. Cripps: Between 1st January and 1st October, 1947, expenditure was incurred out of public funds on publicity connected with coal mining on 12 films, six issues of the magazine "Coal," one exhibition, two leaflets, and Press and poster advertising. The National Coal Board no doubt shared in the benefits of this publicity, the cost of which was £170,856, related revenue totalled £24,950. The Exchequer spent £71,049 on coal mining publicity during the period 1st January to 1st October, 1946. The main part of the expenditure was on a film.
    Sir J. Mellor: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what precedent there is for giving a subsidy to the National Coal Board and by what authority the taxpayers were charged with a loss, exceeding £4,000, incurred by the Stationery Office in publishing the National Coal Board magazine? Why was not the loss charged to the National Coal Board?
    Sir S. Cripps: During the period when the loss was incurred it was done by the Exchequer. It was not charged to the National Coal Board. The hon Member knows that subsequently arrangements were made to hand it over to the National Coal Board.
    Mr. Marlowe: If these things are to be financed out of money voted by Parliament, why is not Parliament entitled to inquire about their activities?
    Sir S. Cripps: It is doing so at this moment, so far as I know.

    Wages and Hours
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in view of the fact that during the last half of 1947 4,000,000 workers got an average increase of 7s. a week and that the normal hours of work of 5,000,000 were reduced by about 3½ hours a week he will take an early opportunity of broadcasting to the nation the bad effects of this inflationary tendency.
    Sir S. Cripps: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement on personal incomes made to the House on Wednesday last by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and to his subsequent broadcast.
    Sir W. Smithers: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will realise that this Question was put down before he did the decent thing and made a statement to the nation. Does he not now realise the failure of Socialist policy and of the promises made at the elections, and is he not aware that circumstances have compelled him to take the action I urged him to take three years ago?
    Sir S. Cripps: The answer is "No, Sir" on each occasion.
    Mr. Mikardo: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, in addition to the inflationary sources mentioned in the Question, during 1947 the average rate of dividend of some 2,000 companies went up from 12.4 per cent. to 15.5 per cent., and how does that measure up with his policy of 2½ per cent.?
    Sir G. Jeffreys: May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether these profits did not pay a very large sum into the Exchequer?
    Sir S. Cripps: They also paid a very large sum into other people's pockets.

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Joynson-Hicksasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer under what provision Purchase Tax is charged on the re-sale of surplus reconditioned government cars by the Ministry of Supply to disabled ex-Service men holding a Ministry of Transport certificate to purchase;
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    and how the assessment of the tax is calculated.
    Sir S. Cripps: Under Section 18 (2) of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1940, goods sold by registered wholesale merchants and manufacturers are chargeable, and these cars after re-conditioning are sold by the manufacturers on terms arranged by the Ministry of Supply, the tax being calculated on the wholesale price after reconditioning.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Does not the Chancellor of the Exchequer agree that to pay Purchase Tax upon a 1939 car which has done 60,000 miles and which needs alteration and repainting is unfair to ex-Service men?
    Sir S. Cripps: I understand that the price of these cars is considerably less than that of the ordinary second-hand car.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Surely, that is no justification whatever for putting on Purchase Tax?
    Sir S. Cripps: The justification is the law.
    Hon. Members: Who made the law?
    Mr. Keelingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the imposition of Purchase Tax on goods sold in this country for hard currency tends to deprive Britain of such currency; and whether he will consider exempting from Purchase Tax, irrespective of the place of delivery, British goods sold for hard currency.
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir. Apart from the very serious administrative objections I am by no means satisfied that such a course would be in our interests.
    Mr. Keeling: Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer appreciate the fact that this has a deterrent effect on the sale of British goods to visitors to this country from hard currency countries?
    Sir S. Cripps: We have no evidence at all that prices here compare so unfavourably with those in hard currency countries that it stops people buying.

    Pilot Census (Traders' Expenses)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a reasonable

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    expense incurred by traders in connection with the pilot census will be allowed as an ordinary trading expense for Income Tax purposes.
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir.

    Capital Movements (South Africa)
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the extent of capital movements to South Africa from the United Kingdom during the year 1947.
    Sir S. Cripps: Though they were considerable, it is as yet too soon to hazard an estimate.
    Mr. Shepherd: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer say whether any arrangements exist between the Government of South Africa and this country to indicate any unusual movements?
    Sir S. Cripps: Arrangements exist by which the Government of South Africa prevents any unusual movements.
    Mr. Osborne: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he means by "considerable," and could he give figures?
    Sir S. Cripps: Something that is worthy of consideration.

    Judges' Salaries
    Mr. Marloweasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will arrange for 40 per cent. of the salaries of His Majesty's judges to be free of tax so that they may carry out their duties with dignity and efficiency having regard to the precedent set in the case of the Prime Minister's salary for the same purpose.
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir. There is no analogy between the salary of the Prime Minister and that of His Majesty's judges.
    Mr. Marlowe: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that these salaries have remained unchanged since 1832, and that comparable salaries of Cabinet Ministers have increased and there have been emoluments and motor cars. Is he aware that a High Court judge who recently tried a prisoner at the Old Bailey, and released him on bail overnight, found himself sitting in the bus with the prisoner going home? Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman
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    think that is a blow to the dignity of the High Court?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am aware of all these facts.
    Captain John Crowder: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer say why no travelling allowances are given to His Majesty's judges?
    Mr. Fernyhough: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether there is any shortage of manpower in that particular profession?
    Sir S. Cripps: I could not say at the moment.

    Foreign Travel (Currency Note Restrictions)
    Mr. Hardyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the enforcement of the prohibition on the import and export of currency notes is causing much resentment to the public because they are unaware of the regulations on the subject; and whether he will give further publicity to the limits on taking notes out of the country.
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir. The Exchange position does not admit of any laxity in these matters. I have arranged for banks and travel agencies to issue to every traveller a warning notice stating plainly that not more than £5 in sterling notes and £10 in foreign currency may be taken abroad, except to Eire and the Channel Islands. Travellers should not imagine that they can leave surplus notes with Immigration or Customs Officers who are charged with the duty of seizing and confiscating excesses. There will now be strict enforcement of the law on these matters, but I appeal to the good sense of the travelling public to co-operate with the port officials and not run the risk of loss by arriving at the port with more than the permitted amount. I take this opportunity to point out that the sterling notes which may be taken out by a traveller are allowed him for the purpose of meeting expenses on a sterling ship and immediate disbursements on return to this country. They may not otherwise be spent abroad. Similarly, I hope passengers arriving from abroad will mark well that the inward limit is £5 in sterling notes, for only in exceptional circumstances will any excess taken from the passenger he returned.
    Mr. Boothby: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman really mean that if a traveller inadvertently put an extra £3 into his purse and then hands it to a Customs official for safe custody the official is to pinch it?
    Sir S. Cripps: There is no facility for handing money to Customs officials for safe custody, nor have they power to hold it.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  GAS BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.32 p.m.
  The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  The gas industry is one with which this House has had a long association. It is interesting to record that the first gas company authorised by Parliament had its first works and gasholder in Great Peter Street, Westminster. The first installation of street lamps, I am informed, was on Westminster Bridge, and when they were erected the lamplighters refused to light them for fear of being blown up, and the engineer of the company had to go along and light the lamps himself to show they were harmless. Perhaps, similar feelings of anxiety may have been expressed in some quarters today about the purposes of this Bill, but I shall endeavour myself, metaphorically speaking, to light the lamps and show that they are harmless.
  It is a far cry from those early days to the present. The gas industry, which it is the purpose of this Bill to reorganise under public ownership, is nowadays not an industry which is providing light only, but a highly organised processing industry. Its function is to carbonise coal, and therefrom to produce gas, coke, and coal tar; and from the purification of the gas and from the distillation of the tar many valuable by-products are produced which form part of the basic materials of our chemical industry. Gas is not the only carbonising industry. The coke oven industry does very much the same thing, though, of course, there are technical differences arising from the fact that the purpose of coke ovens is to produce coke and the purpose of gasworks is to produce gas.
  Nor does every unit in the gas industry carry processing of by-products to the same extent. Only the very large undertakings, like the Gas Light and Coke Company, produce a wide range of coal tar products. Smaller undertakings, for the most part, sell the tar to tar distillers. Therefore, the borderline which we have adopted in deciding what exactly should be transferred to public ownership is historical as much as logical. We do not take over

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  the coke ovens and we do not take over the tar distilleries as such: but we do take over gasworks which conduct tar distillation themselves.
  I have already referred to the variation in size between the different parts of this industry; and, indeed, they are remarkable. At one extreme we have the Gas Light and Coke Company selling no less than 56,000 million cubic feet per annum; at the other, extremely small town gasworks selling a few million cubic feet per annum only. We shall be occupied with these variations in greater detail later on. Statistically, the picture of the industry is this. There are over 1,000 undertakings, of which some 350 are non-statutory and mostly very small, and nearly 700 statutory undertakings, of which about 400 are company undertakings and the rest municipal. In all, the companies supply just under two-thirds of the total quantity of gas and the municipalities just over one-third. That is the picture of the industry with which we are concerned.
  What is the case for this Bill? What is the case for the reorganisation of the industry under public ownership? One argument which is put forward is a very simple one. It is that since the coal and electricity industries have already been nationalised, the gas industry must be also. This is not just an aesthetic argument based on the beauties of symmetry. It is based on something much more fundamental. The question the House has to consider is, Can we really conceive of the gas industry, in its present antiquated form, being able to compete effectively with electricity? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I say "compete" deliberately, and will explain what I mean by that a little later on. Furthermore, how can we really achieve co-ordination in the sphere of fuel and power as a whole—which it is, after all, one of the purposes of my Ministry to carry out—unless we have public ownership in all three cases? I will refer to these arguments again in a minute. I think they are powerful; but I would not for one moment suggest to the House that the main case for the Bill rests upon them.
  The case for the public ownership of the gas industry is very powerful on its merits and without reference to what is happening in other fields of fuel and
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  power. This case I now propose to develop. It rests upon three propositions: first, that the present structure of the industry is not conducive to maximum efficiency; second, that the present legislative framework is a major obstacle against achieving great efficiency; third, that from every angle the most suitable structure for an efficient gas industry can be achieved only by organisation under public ownership. Let me take these three propositions in turn.
  Many reports, pamphlets, documents have been published on the subject of the gas industry in recent years; and if there is one thing on which they are all, more or less, agreed—with varying degrees of emphasis, but all agreed—it is on the need for larger areas, for greater integration. I could quote from these documents at considerable length, but, frankly, I do not think it is necessary to do so. I do not think this is in dispute between the two sides of the House. One could refer to the British Gas Federation's Report of 1933; one could refer to the report in 1946 of the Association of Gas Corporations; one could refer in detail to the Heyworth Report. I will content myself with one quotation from the Heyworth Report, paragraph 230, which says:
  "The direction of the required change is clearly marked, namely towards groupings into larger units. This is preponderantly the view of the Industry itself. It is in no sense a revolutionary idea; it is entirely consistent with past history, which shows a steadily accelerating trend towards integration."
  The Heyworth Report goes on to elaborate the objects which, in the opinion of the Committee, larger units could achieve—reduction of production costs, improvement in labour conditions, a more intensive study of distribution problems, ensuring the provision of improved appliances, raising the general level of consumer services, greater concentration of development in "fringe" and rural areas, further extension of coke grading and selling effort, and expansion of research and its application. I do not know whether the Opposition would wish to question the detailed arguments which the Heyworth Committee have set forth in this matter, but there they are, and they seem to me absolutely conclusive.
  Rather than search for further evidence of a documentary character to support this case, I would prefer to attempt to clothe the bare bones of generalisation

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  with a few concrete illustrations. To start with, let me take an area with which I am fairly familiar the West Riding of Yorkshire, in which my constituency is situated. There are in this area a large number of fairly big local authorities—the Corporations of Leeds, Halifax, Bradford and so on. There is also one of the more modern developments under private enterprise—the West Yorkshire Grid, created by the United Kingdom Gas Corporation. When that grid was set up and coke ovens constructed at Hemsworth to feed it, the local authorities opposed it as far as they possibly could; they would not allow the pipes which were to form the grid to pass through their areas, far less actually take gas from it.
  Yet to anybody who looks at the matter objectively, here is an overwhelming case for planning the area as a whole on the basis of the coke ovens which are there already. It would be possible to achieve this if we had a single authority for gas in that area. It is not possible to achieve it without that. As a matter of fact, two or three years ago my Ministry did their best to get together the various authorities in that district in order that we could plan some sort of grid. We had to abandon the attempt; it was impossible to make them work together.
  Then one could take South Wales, an area which I happen to know because I went down there some time ago to study this particular problem. There, on the one hand, are 30 or 40 small gas undertakings, and, on the other hand, a number of steel works and, in addition, coke ovens. There is a project by the National Coal Board to build large coke ovens—a large plant at a place called Nantgarw. There can be no doubt that, when this coke oven plant is built, and when the steel works have available a surplus of gas resulting from their conversion to oil, the greater part of that area can be supplied by coke oven gas. It will not be necessary to have a lot of small and not very efficient gasworks. In order to have this a grid must be constructed. We have started to plan it, and have been much assisted by the gas engineers in the area; but we are naturally faced with extremely difficult problems of finance and administration so long as all these separate undertakings exist. One cannot see how all the benefits which should follow from unified planning in that area are truly to be
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  achieved, until there is an Area Board for the district.
  I will mention one other rather remote but interesting possibility, as I think the House will agree. In South-East England there is an area which has been developed on a moderate scale and gas has been supplied to, I would not say rural areas, but at any rate semi-rural areas. There are a number of seaside towns in the area and also a part of London. The peak load in London falls in the winter, but in the seaside towns it falls in the summer, when they are full of visitors. Those two could very conveniently be combined. Here again, I believe that for that area—although I would not be so certain of this example as the other two, because I am not so familiar with it—a gas grid might be very efficient.
  I conclude that the evidence of the need for greater integration is overwhelming. By this I do not mean that all small works are inefficient, nor that the advantage of the larger groupings will accrue everywhere to the same extent; but on balance there can be no doubt about it. I would go further and say that, unless there are larger areas, and unless there is integration, the prospects of the gas industry surviving and developing as it should are, in my opinion, extremely remote. This, I believe, would be a pity, because I also believe this to be an industry with great possibilities.
  The second proposition is that the present legislative framework is restrictive. This, too, is not, I think, really in dispute, but perhaps it needs a little explanation. It is some 150 years since coal gas was first used for lighting. When a little later, at the beginning of the last century, the gas industry began to develop solely for lighting purposes, laisser faire was the general doctrine pervading the minds of the Government and the country. The consequence was that, although in fact Acts of Parliament were necessary in order to enable undertakings to dig up the streets to lay pipes, and so on, nevertheless, competition between them was encouraged. The theory, of course, is well known. With free competition there is the greatest incentive towards reducing costs with, therefore, the greatest opportunities for development and the best results for the consumer. Whether or not that doctrine may be true in other fields, there can be no doubt but that

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  it just did not apply in the case of public utilities like gas, because it meant different undertakings trying to supply exactly the same consumers; and, apart from the inconvenience which must have resulted from digging up the streets, an appalling waste of capital was involved.
  So, quite early on, before the middle of the century, the conception of free competition had disappeared, being replaced by the conception of the statutory monopoly. An undertaking, a company, or, for that matter, a municipality came to Parliament and got its private Act; it got permission to supply gas, and to have a monopoly of the supply of gas in a particular area. In return, certain restrictions and controls were imposed, particularly over dividends and prices. As to this, I would express the opinion myself—and, indeed, it is the opinion of many people in the industry—that the control of dividends, as it was actually applied at that time, was either ineffective or was a deterrent to development in the industry. However, I am not concerned with that at the moment. The point is that, so long as there are monopoly areas combined with technical requirements for large-scale production and distribution, we do not naturally and automatically get towards what are the best areas from the technical point of view.
  In the cases of other industries it may well be that where there are advantages in large-scale production, the natural forces of competition lead to that result. It may be brutal, and small firms may go to the wall, but at least that result is achieved. But this cannot be the case with statutory monopolies, because the undertaking which has the monopoly cannot be driven out. It can be bought out, but its price is usually a very heavy one. In fact, one can say that large-scale production and distribution in gas has resulted only, first, from the growth of population, and secondly, from amalgamations which were expensive because of the number of existing undertakings, and because of the Parliamentary proceedings they involved, and which were difficult, if not impossible, where it was a question of combining local authority and company areas.
  I turn to the third and more controversial proposition, that public ownership is the only way of achieving this result. I express the view that those who
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  oppose this really do so on the grounds of prejudice only. I ask them as far as possible, even at this late date, to drop their prejudices and approach this matter quite objectively. We are all agreed that we need larger areas and greater integration, and this greater integration will achieve benefits for the consumer, because it will enable gas and the other products to be produced more efficiently—
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: And more cheaply?
  Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, Sir. It is the same thing. I understood that hon. Members opposite agreed that these larger areas were desirable.
  What are the alternatives? We could, of course, do nothing at all. We could leave things to drift on, with amalgamations here and there, at the slow leisurely pace at which this sort of thing happened before the war. I venture to say that the gas industry has no future if that is the course to be followed, and that the prospects of it being able to serve the public efficiently are remote—even the industry itself accepts that. Today, there has appeared a new document. A report by the British Gas Council. I do not know how far hon. Members have been able to study it. It has perhaps been difficult for them to do so in the time at their disposal. I confess that I have only glanced at it myself, but I should like to deal with the proposition which they now put up, perhaps a little belatedly, as an alternative to nationalisation. They suggest:
  "The methods of geographical integration adopted in the past should be encouraged, facilitated and aided by an integration tribunal, to which could be referred any integrating proposals which could not be agreed, compliance with the findings of the tribunal being obligatory."
  That, I admit, is a step in the right direction. The tribunal is to have some sort of powers, but there is no initiative. Nothing is to come from the centre. If anyone wants an amalgamation and gets into an argument he can go to the tribunal, but there is no indication if integration takes place, of who will control the new body.
  Can it be seriously suggested that private amalgamations are not extraordinarily complex and difficult things to carry out as everyone who has had

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  experience in industry knows? Can we seriously suppose that a tribunal of this kind could and would hand over local-authority undertakings to private-enterprise undertakings, or, for that matter, private-enterprise undertakings to local-authority undertakings? That is not a job for a tribunal. It is a job for a Government. It is a matter of policy, and only this House can decide a matter of that sort. I suggest that these new proposals, while welcoming them as a step in the right direction, are inadequate for the purpose.
  I prefer the view of the Heyworth Committee. They say:
  "We do not make specific recommendations regarding 'the difficulties and weaknesses' known and admitted by the industry, because we consider that a basic change in the structure of the industry is the only approach that can produce really effective results quickly."
  After discussing the various alternatives, they say:
  "But, in fact, it is not necessary to decide whether or not the provision of additional machinery would, or would not, bring about acceleration of integration within the different forms of structure. A glance at the map of the structure of the industry as it is today will make it clear that no degree of success along this line of approach could produce a pattern of grouping even approximating to the ideal. Predetermination of boundaries is the only approach which will produce a workable pattern, and although the discussions within the industry itself did not actually lead to this recommendation, it is consistent with the main content of their evidence."
  Upon what objections is the opposition to nationalisation based? I have searched the documents, and I will take first some comments contained in the document of the British Gas Federation, published in 1943. Why did they oppose nationalisation? They opposed it, firstly, because nationalisation would create controversy. But the absence of nationalisation also creates controversy, unless we are to ignore all those who are in favour of nationalisation. Secondly, they state that nationalisation cannot be introduced for some years. That is now a little out of date. Thirdly, they say that nationalisation cannot be applied to the gas industry in the absence of similar treatment for its competitors. That is also a little out of date.
  There is not very much new in this latest document by the British Gas Council. What are the arguments this time? They have avoided some of the
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  earlier ones. We are told that nationalissation will cause "delay, difficulty and confusion." How absurd that is. I ask any objective person to put side by side with the proposal for nationalisation, the British Gas Council's proposals for a gradual process of amalgamations. Does that involve more or less delay, than outright nationalisation? As to difficulties and confusion, "confusion" is certainly the proper word to apply to such vague proposals as those made by the Gas Council. As for difficulties, there are certainly always difficulties and great difficulties in the way of any private amalgamations. That is the lesson which the Heyworth Committee had so clearly in mind.
  We are told that nationalisation involves additional expenditure, but not why it should do so—[An HON. MEMBER: "Look at the Money Resolution."] I am told to look at the Money Resolution, and I suppose that the hon. Member has in mind the provision of capital for the industry. Is it not desirable that the industry should spend that capital in any case? It is absolutely essential that it should spend that money, because of the very parlous state of many of the gas undertakings at the present time. If one is to talk about additional expenditure, I should have thought that the extra cost of amalgamations under private enterprise, with the buying out of all the parties concerned, was a very important factor.
  Then we are told that the business of producing and selling gas is a specialised and technical job. It is indeed, but atomic research is highly specialised, and that is organised under the Government. Are we to assume that municipal undertakings which have conducted this business successfully for a number of years are incapable of carrying out this highly specialised and technical business? Why should it be assumed, as the British Gas Council assumes, that there will be no initiative, responsibility, enterprise and inducement? All these things, as the Heyworth Report recognises, are more likely to be achieved under public enterprise than under private enterprise. It is one of the main criticisms of the Committee that the industry in its present form did not have the initiative it should have, and required organising into wider areas.

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  It has been assumed that there will be no competition with electricity. That view has been put forward from a number of sources. I want to deal with this in detail a little later. Let me say at once that it is a complete misconception of the plan of nationalising these industries that all competition between gas and electricity should disappear. If that were the case, why should we not have set up exactly the same boards to run gas and electricity? We have set up entirely separate boards, and we intend that competition, restricted in certain ways, shall continue between them.
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: In certain ways?
  Mr. Gaitskell: The right hon. Gentleman had better wait, because he may find himself in agreement with these ways when we come to them. The parallel between gas and electricity is striking. In both cases technical developments have made existing areas out of date; in both cases the existence of statutory rights has blocked development into larger areas; in both cases the position has been complicated by the co-existence of municipal and private enterprise; in both cases there have been committees on the subject. The first, the McGowan Committee appointed in 1935, favoured larger areas, but was against nationalisation. The Heyworth Committee wanted larger areas, and favoured nationalisation.
  Mr. Bracken: No.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Of course it did, or, public ownership, if Members opposite prefer that phrase. The fact is that the political atmosphere had changed in those 10 years, and that the new approach, however strange and inappropriate it might have seemed to the McGowan Committee in 1935, seemed natural and logical to the Heyworth Committee in 1945. The leisurely, timid, satisfy-every-vested-interest approach of the McGowan Committee seemed utterly out of place to the Heyworth Committee 10 years later. That is the case for the Bill on its merits.
  How do we propose to apply the principle of public ownership? For that, we must turn to the Bill itself. I do not propose to go through it in detail, as there will be plenty of opportunities for that later, but I want to pick out some of its essential features and explain why
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  we have decided what we have decided. A part of the Bill follows closely the lines of the Electricity Act. That is natural as the circumstances are so similar. After all, the Electricity Act was passed by this House, and was, no doubt, improved in its passage, and we should do well, as we have done, to take various parts of this Bill from that Measure. But there are important differences, perhaps the most important being that in this Bill the Area Boards are the centre of the picture whereas, in the case of electricity, the British Electricity Authority was established as the generating authority and given considerable powers to coordinate the policy of the Area Boards.
  Here, we begin with the Area Boards whose duty it is to develop, and maintain an efficient co-ordinated and economical system of gas supply for their areas. It is their duty to develop and maintain the efficient and economical production of coke. They have other powers too—to produce by-products, to promote the welfare, health and safety of their employees, to submit capital development plans and reduce, so far as is practicable, the price of gas and coke. It is on the Area Boards that all these duties and powers are laid. In short, they are the main instruments through which the benefits of the reorganisation of the industry under public ownership and into larger areas will accrue to consumers so that better and cheaper gas and coke will be available than would otherwise be the case. That is the real test, and it is the job of the Area Boards to see to it that they achieve that result.
  We have decided to give the Area Boards the main responsibility not, let me say, because we think there has been over centralisation in other cases, but because in this case it is proper. There is no question of a national grid here; gas is a local service, and we think that to a great extent it should be decentralised. But we do not go so far as the Heyworth Committee in having no central body at all. We believe that there must be a central body of some kind, but that it should be mainly advisory and federal in character, and we therefore propose to establish a Gas Council consisting of Area Board chairmen together with a chairman and vice chairman appointed by the Minister. The function of that Council is to advise the Minister, and represent the industry as a

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  whole. It will negotiate with the trade unions, co-ordinate research, production and training and will be the long-term borrowing authority. In certain cases and certain instances, it will also have some powers over the Area Boards. May I explain what they are?
  It is the function of the Gas Council to set up a guarantee fund to which the Area Boards will contribute. The purpose of the fund is, in effect, to give the Treasury the security which they naturally require if they are to guarantee the British Gas Stock through which the industry will raise the finance it requires. The Area Boards can draw on the guarantee fund if they are unable to meet the capital charges on their part of the British Gas Stock. If they do not come to the Council because they can pay their way, the Council leaves them alone, but if they come to the Council because they are in financial difficulties, and say, "Will you help us to pay our debts to the Treasury?" then the Council can issue directions, subject to the approval of the Minister, until they get out of the mess they may have got into. That is a simple and democratic device for achieving a low rate of interest, which we desire to see, without continual intervention from the centre.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman is now dealing with a most important aspect of this Bill. Can he tell us explicitly what powers he will have as Minister, answerable to Parliament for the running of this new privately-owned industry? Once the service has been nationalised, will Parliament have the right to put Questions to the Minister about it?
  Mr. Gaitskell: The position is exactly the same in this Bill as in the other nationalisation Acts. The Minister has certain powers over the Area Boards and the Gas Council. If he exercises those powers he is answerable to Parliament, but he is not answerable, and cannot be made answerable, if he is not responsible.
  Mr. Davies rose—
  Mr. Gaitskell: I hope my hon. Friend will excuse me if I do not give way as this point is likely to be debated shortly in the House, and I am anxious to get on with my exposition of the Bill. It is not my desire to avoid a discussion, but I have another job on hand at the moment.
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  It has often been argued that the Boards, not only in this case but in certain other industries, including electricity, should be run by the local authorities. The answer is plain. The areas of the local authorities are quite unsuitable for this purpose. There might be 50 or 100 local authorities in one of the new areas, and I do not see how the job can be left to them in the circumstances, especially as there are many who have no experience of management of this industry. But we do want participation by the local authorities, and we have provided for that through the consultative councils on which they will have a considerable measure of representation. I need only refer to one difference from the Electricity Act. Here, the consultative councils, if they wish, can make representations to the Minister, after consultation with the Area Board, and if the Minister thinks that these representations show any defect in the Area Board's general plans and arrangements, he must refer the representations, for inquiry and report, to an independent person appointed after consultation with the Lord Chancellor. That, in fact, was an undertaking given during the passage of the Electricity Bill in another place. An undertaking was given that that would be done in the case of electricity, and we have actually put it in the Bill in the case of gas.
  The only other thing on the structure of the industry to which I want to refer is the character of the areas. The White Paper explains why they differ from the areas recommended in the Heyworth Committee's Report. Some people have asked, "Why do we not have the same areas for gas as for electricity?" I can see certain advantages in that from the point of view of joint planning, and there will have to be a certain amount of joint planning. It would be nice to have the same areas, and, in due course, a greater approximation may be possible. At present there must be divergencies.
  In the first place, the boundaries have to be drawn so as not to cut the existing distribution network and so as not to cut through existing undertakings. In the case of electricity, this meant bringing the boundaries of the northern area as far south as York, because York has been supplied by the North-Eastern Electric Supply Company up to now. In the case

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  of gas, there is no need for this. Therefore, York goes into the Yorkshire area. Where, of course, it is more appropriate on other grounds. Similarly, in electricity, Birmingham was separated from Coventry because of the boundaries of the existing power companies, but that is not necessary in the case of gas. Again, in the case of electricity, there was need to balance the urban and rural loads, and because of that we made the London area as small as possible, thus throwing into other areas parts of the outer suburban districts of London. In the case of gas, we have an entirely different position. We have north of the Thames the Gas Light and Coke Company practically controlling the whole area already. The sensible thing is to divide London into two, as we have done, according to the existing boundaries. The grid also very much affected the electricity area boundaries, and that does not apply in the case of gas.
  I now turn, for a few moments, to the compensation provisions of the Bill. The procedure is the same as in electricity. All the assets and liabilities of the undertakings are to be taken over, which means that the only people who have any claim to compensation are the shareholders. Everything else is taken over. Consequently, compensation is paid for their securities valued at Stock Exchange prices, and they have the option of choosing the higher of the two dates given in the Bill. In the case of unquoted shares, there is provision for valuation by agreement, or, failing that, by arbitration. There is one difference here. In the case of gas, we recognise that some of the share prices in 1945—that is the pre-election period—were undoubtedly low, because of the low dividends paid at that time owing to war conditions, including war damage and particularly evacuation. Therefore, we provide that, in certain cases, additional sums may be paid, either by agreement or through arbitration. This, I think, is fair and deals with what might otherwise have been a difficult point.
  I need not argue the full case for our method of compensation. We have had so many arguments on this subject already that I doubt whether there is anything new to say about it. No doubt, there will be opportunities, between now and the final passage of the Bill, for
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  further talk on that subject. My own point of view is that this is the easiest, simplest and fairest method of compensation. At any rate, the gas industry recognise that the idea of a valuation of the assets of the industry is right out of court. They accept, in fact, our method of compensation for securities taken over, although they do not entirely agree with our particular method of settling the value of the shares.
  In the case of municipalities, we have adopted the same procedure as for electricity. We regard the transfer from a municipal undertaking to a new Board as a transfer from one public authority to another, and, on that basis, we say, "Take it over as it is, with its assets and liabilities." We provide a sum of £2 million for severance, as we did in the case of electricity, although as there were many more undertakings and much more in the way of possible loss through severance, the sum provided for electricity was £5 million.
  There is one matter, however, in connection with the compensation for municipal undertakings to which I must refer. The Electricity Act made no provision to prevent municipal undertakings "dissipating their assets." I mean by that disposing of their assets in certain ways so that they would not be available to the new Boards. It is true that certain statutory restrictions exist. We did not add to those restrictions in the Electricity Act. We assumed that, as they were public bodies, there was no need to do so. I am sorry to have to tell the House that in certain cases our confidence in the local authorities in this matter has been misplaced. There have been cases where large rebates have been granted to consumers as a sort of parting present from the municipal undertakings. One may say, "That is not a very serious matter. It will only happen this time; it will not recur; why worry about it?" But in present circumstances, when we should be discouraging electricity consumption, the granting of rebates—up to as much as 50 per cent. in one case—is quite inappropriate.
  I have, therefore, today made an order prohibiting the granting of rebates other than normal cash discounts to consumers. At the same time, because it would be a necessary part of any such order, I am preventing undertakings from reducing

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  their prices. The same things, to some extent, have been happening in the case of gas. Therefore, there will be a similar order in the case of gas as well. That is all we propose to do on electricity, but in the case of gas, where there have been already some abnormal transfers from reserves—I give notice that we shall move a Government Amendment on the Committee stage prohibiting as from today the transfer for general purposes of sums from any reserve which was clearly set aside for the use of the gas undertaking, as distinct from the general body of ratepayers. It is a pity that we have to do that, but I am sure that it is necessary in the circumstances.
  I wish to say a few words about co-partnership on which some remarks have been made in the Press. It is a term which covers a lot of different things. It may mean a proportion of profits being allotted to employees with or without obligation to acquire shares and with some participation in management. It may mean a proportion of profits distributed as a bonus without any particular incentive to acquire shares and without participation in management. It may mean some vaguer, looser form of profit sharing as part of remuneration for service. It may mean no more than that some part of the profits are set aside for the purpose of benefit funds and welfare schemes.
  There are actually very few cases in the gas industry or, indeed, as far as I know, in any other industry where the employees or their representatives take an active part in managing the business. Further, the Gas Light and Coke Company, by far the largest undertaking in the country, now has a so-called partnership scheme which really is not one at all; it is a scheme for a bonus based on the total gas output which, of course, is not necessarily related to profits. Finally, we must remember that less than half the employees in the industry are covered.
  However, there is no hostility on our part to co-partnership schemes. There are certain things we cannot do, and cannot go on with in the industry when it is nationalised. Clearly, we cannot go on with the existing schemes because the companies go out of existence altogether, and there are legal and financial reasons which make it impossible for them to go on. Nor is it possible to have
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  a scheme which would succeed them whereby shares are issued to employees based on profits because there will not be any shares in these nationalised undertakings. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No, there are no equity holders. I said "shares," but I am prepared to add that we are not interested in making excessive profits in nationalised undertakings.
  Therefore, what we have done is to provide for compensation for the copartners as shareholders just as for the other shareholders and, at the same time, compensation for the loss of rights which they suffer as the co-partnership schemes come to an end. That is provided for in the personal compensation Clause. What can be done, on the other hand—and it is open to the boards concerned, in consultation with the workers' representatives to do it if they wish—is to go on with incentive schemes of various kinds. As far as I can see, it would be perfectly open to the North Thames Board to continue the kind of arrangement that the Gas Light and Coke Company have at the moment. Secondly, we shall certainly continue and extend the consultative machinery, and specific provision is made for that. Thirdly, we shall also specifically continue and extend the benefit and welfare arrangements. What we cannot do is to continue the pure co-partnership schemes, and I may say that the trade unions with whom we have discussed this matter are fully in accord with this, and do not appear to regret the end of co-partnership in its narrower sense.
  With regard to the co-ordination of fuel and power, I think it will be agreed that there is a widespread desire in the country—and the right hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) will agree with me here—that the separate fuel and power industries should each be co-ordinated—that in a sense is one of the functions of my Ministry—and that there should be effective co-ordination in the field of fuel and power as a whole. What does this mean? Some subjects generate heat. I always feel that the subject of the co-ordination of fuel and power is more apt to generate fog than anything else; certainly, I have read more vague and woolly statements on this subject in the last year or two than on almost anything else. Let us be clear about one thing. Co-ordination is a means, not an end. It is not something that has any virtue for its own sake, and

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  the end is the satisfaction of the consumers' needs for fuel and power at the minimum cost to the community. Co-ordination seeks to achieve this end by arranging the relations between the fuel and power industries, the scale of their activities, and the purposes they serve so as to get the best results.
  What do we mean by the best results? First, obviously, we mean getting a greater technical efficiency from coal. A great deal of attention has been paid to this subject, and much credit is due to all concerned. It has been stimulated by the shortage of coal, but we must understand that the days when we had vast quantities of cheap coal produced at cheap cost in life and limb are over. We shall not return to them and we cannot afford to be wasteful of coal as we have been in the past. Of course, this does not mean that we disregard all other costs. We must certainly count the steel and the labour needed in getting more out of the coal. Nor must we neglect the additional costs involved in, for instance, smoke pollution, which is a heavy social and economic burden disregarded in the ordinary price-cost relationship of the industry. So when we speak of coordination, we mean that we aim to get the best results from our resources, and we must take into account all the resources and all the results.
  How can co-ordination achieve this? The best answer is by giving some illustrations. Perhaps the simplest and most obvious is the one to which specific reference is made in the Bill, namely coordination between the development of coke ovens and gasworks. It is really astonishing that this problem was not tackled years ago. Here you have in many areas of the country the coke oven industry going on its own sweet way and the gas industry going on its own sweet way. Twenty years ago a Committee on Fuel and Power recommended, as in so many other spheres, that something should be done, but nothing was done. It is commonsense, is it not, that in working out how best to satisfy the needs for gas in a region you should take into account the potentialities of all the carbonising plant? I know there have been advances here and there. For instance in the Sheffield area in West Yorkshire, to
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  which I have referred, and in the Newcastle area, but there are great possibilities. I have given one illustration in South Wales, which will have served to show the House what we shall expect to achieve in this way as a result of the Bill.
  We have provided that the National Coal Board and the Gas Area Boards must co-operate in the capital development of carbonisation. They are jointly to work out schemes. If they do not agree, there is provision for separate schemes and for the Minister to adjudicate between them. In the last resort, if there is deadlock, and the Minister finds it is necessary that some property should be transferred from the one to the other, he may order an inquiry and, if he is satisfied as the result of the inquiry that it is necessary to do so he can make an order which gives effect to this transfer. However, that order itself is subject to special Parliamentary procedure, so it is a last resort which I hope we shall never have to use.
  Let me give some other illustrations of the need for co-ordination. It is a well-known fact that at the moment 70 per cent. of the heat is wasted even in the most modern generating stations. We have heard a lot of talk about district heating as a possible way of making use of this waste heat, and there are some district schemes now being put into operation. However, many of these are not thermal electrical schemes at all, and I cannot help feeling that you cannot separate off the question of district heating from that of the size and location of generating stations. All this will have to be looked into. Furthermore, it seems to me that we want to look at the fuel and power needs of an area as a whole—the need for gas, electricity, hot water, steam and so on—and try to satisfy them as a whole.
  I have even heard it suggested by some of my scientific friends that there are great possibilities about combining gasworks and power stations. I do not know how much there is in that, but clearly it must be looked into and can only be achieved by very close co-ordination between the two industries. Then there is underground gasification, in which some hon. Members opposite are interested. Experiments have been taking place in Belgium and the United States, and there has also been

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  some progress in Russia. Clearly there would have to be the closest co-ordination between the National Coal Board and the Gas Boards on anything of this kind.
  I am hoping shortly to announce the appointment of a Scientific Advisory Council to the Ministry of Fuel and Power, and of a Chief Scientific Adviser who will in all probability be chairman of the Council. Their first job and an essential one will be to co-ordinate the research in fuel and power as a whole. We shall have on that Council the chief scientific officers of the nationalised industries, together with some independent scientists.
  May I pass finally to say a word or two also on co-ordination, but at the consumption and distribution end? It is not our view—let me make it perfectly plain—that we should dictate to consumers what fuel they should use. To do this and to ignore consumers' preferences would not in our view give us the best results, and freedom for consumers to choose is something which, as a long-term proposition, I regard as an essential part of a civilised society. At present, shortages restrict our choice and we have not as much steel as we should like so that we cannot offer gas and electricity to everybody. But the general principle must be upheld, though obviously the level of costs would rule out some possibilities completely. Nor should we overlook the value of retaining competition between electricity and gas. It has been a stimulus in the past and it can bring benefits to the community in the future, provided it is subject to certain safeguards; but this does not mean that there should be no co-ordination whatever in this field.
  First of all, we should supply full information services to consumers so that they can make a proper choice between the different types of fuel offered to them. Secondly, as I have already hinted, while consumers should be free, their choice can and should be influenced by reference to costs. It is essential however—this is perhaps the most vital point I want to make—that the charges for different fuels should reflect the true cost of production and distribution to the community. We want to avoid if possible a position where different Boards impose high charges on consumers who have no alternative because the Boards have a monopoly, while cutting charges far below costs to consumers who are fortunate enough to be
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  able to choose. The principle must be that charges should correspond to real costs.
  Another illustration is this. It has sometimes been said that too little attention has been paid to the peak load question in electricity and too little attention paid to framing tariffs so as to reflect capital costs, because these are a substantial part of the costs in electricity and those who use electricity at peak periods therefore add to the capital costs very considerably. Contrasted with electricity, gas fortunately has at any rate one great advantage in that it can be stored, and it may well be that some modification in the form of tariffs here would be appropriate. I am not passing judgment on what is a highly technical and difficult subject, but giving this as an illustration of the principle that costs and charges must coincide. It will not be an easy job to work this out but I believe that with the co-operation of the Boards concerned we should be able to build up a body of experience and knowledge from which what one might describe as a code of fair conduct should emerge. It is not a question of dictating to Boards out of the blue on their price policy and not a question of setting up some tribunal to tell them what they should do, but a question of getting them round the table and trying to arrange the form of their charges and price policy as a whole so that it fits in with the needs of the community.
  To sum up, co-ordination is not dictation. It is certainly not dictation to the consumer and it is not dictation to the Board; it is designed to use our fuel resources so as to get the best results. The means of doing this are varied—greater research, greater exchange of knowledge, planned capital development, and a rational and fair prices policy. We shall achieve these ends because I am confident that under the Ministry the various Boards will come to regard themselves not as wholly separate entities, their loyalty entirely concentrated on the products with which they are concerned, but as partners in a common enterprise to provide for the community the best fuel and power service available.
  This Bill is not, as some would have us believe, the fulfilment of an obstinate doctrinaire's dream; it is an essential

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  part of the Government's plan for reconstructing and co-ordinating the fuel and power industries of the country. The gas industry is an industry with great possibilities, and though much has been achieved in the past despite many handicaps, those possibilities will never be realised unless a fundamental change is made in the structure of the industry. The high technical standards and the efficient management which have been characteristic of some undertakings in the past must now be extended to the whole industry. Science must be given its full opportunity. There must be drive and progress, not in one or two enterprises but in every area in the country.
  In the last 25 years many thousands of words have been uttered and many thousands of sentences written about our fuel and power industries. Everything was said and nothing done. Yet in all these cases there was really no doubt about what should be done. The technicians, the workers in the industry, knew what was required, and opinion has steadily crystalised more and more in the same direction. In essence the three latest and very non-political reports—the Reid Report, the McGowan Report and the Heyworth Report—tell the same story. What is this story? It is that the structure is antiquated, that it is stifling the industry, that there must be larger areas and that there must be co-ordination. I know that their attitude differs on public ownership. The first was opposed to it, the second was hesitant and the third was favourable. The climate had changed in the meanwhile, but the signposts in each of those Reports were unmistakeable, and we are following them. After 25 years of talk under other Governments, this Government has acted. The logical step of transferring these three great industries to public ownership has at last been taken and the basis has now been laid for the efficient planning in the interests of the community of our great fuel and power resources.
  4.37 p.m.
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: The launching of his first Bill is no small ordeal for a Minister; and what a bulky Bill it is—100 pages full of knotty and baffling technicalities. If I, a private
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  Member, complain of the weary hours I have spent on the Bill, how much more is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to sympathy, for he himself is a man of many burdens and acquainted with trouble, mostly started by his colleagues. No one can complain of any lack of clarity or industry in the Minister's performance of a difficult duty, but a complaint will come from the North of England owing to the right hon. Gentleman's incautious reference to Bradford. It was a most unfortunate choice, because in Bradford there is an alderman named Leach, a well-liked former Member of this House, a former Minister, a leading figure in every way in the Bradford Socialist Party. What does Alderman Leach say about this Bill? He says that it will rob Bradford of over £2 million. I must warn the right hon. Gentleman that when next he goes to Bradford, he will get an "infra-red" reception.
  I admired the Minister's dexterity in handling the Heyworth Report, a dexterity which he derived from long association with his former guileful master, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton). That apprenticeship has indeed been a great advantage to the right hon. Gentleman. The Minister came not only to praise the Heyworth Report today; he came to praise it and to bury it. Whatever can be said about this Bill, no one can assert that it embalms the important recommendations of Mr. Geoffrey Heyworth and his colleagues. These gentlemen were bold enough to say that their plan
  "is essentially one that stands as a whole; its parts are interdependent and additions are as likely to upset its balance as deletions."
  The Minister will not deny that he has made many additions and many deletions, and he has, in fact, greatly upset the balance of the Heyworth Report. We hold that the Heyworth Report is good in parts, but that it is pessimistic and necessarily superficial. I suppose if one were to set a leader of the gas industry, a chartered accountant, a water engineer, a trade union leader and an eminent professor to inquire into Lever Brothers, the results would not be any more acceptable. Though we must criticise the Heyworth Report, we are not wanting in appreciation of the fact that Mr. Geoffrey Heyworth, who rendered great service to the State during the war, and his colleagues gave

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  up a great deal of their energies in delving into the gas industry.
  We are told in that Report that the gas industry nowadays produces more heat than light. Let us try to reverse this process in debating this Bill. Let us consider it in the light of the warnings recently given us by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer about Britain's parlous economic and financial situation. We agree with those warnings. We were criticised as pessimists for saying the same thing two years ago. Some politicians and newspapers have asked, "Why make so much fuss about nationalising gas? It is a respectable, outmoded industry with few managerial problems—a sleepy old monopoly, in fact." We shall try to show the House that gas is one of the most vital of all British industries. It is not only a great distributor of fuel and power, but is a great and ever-growing chemical industry, with an immense and fascinating future. In considering its future, let us abjure arid, academic arguments about the relative merits of Socialism and private enterprise. There is a time and place for those, but they cannot help in settling the future of this great industry. Rather let us test this Bill by the Lord President's commonsense rule that it is up to the nationalisers to prove their case.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The right hon. Gentleman is quite right in what he says; but I did add that it is up to the anti-nationalisers to prove that it is best to leave things alone.
  Mr. Bracken: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. That is exactly what I intend to do in my speech this afternoon.
  Government supporters generally rest their case for nationalising an industry on three grounds—firstly, that Parliament should control an industry like gas that effects most of the homes of the country and many of the industries of Britain; secondly, the State should step in where private enterprise has been manifestly inefficient; and thirdly, the State must take over an industry suffering from chronic labour troubles. There is a fourth argument used by those who strongly favour nationalisation of gas, and it is the trilogy argument put forward by the Secretary of State for War. According to that argument, gas is complementary to electricity
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  and coal—I think the Minister of Fuel and Power this afternoon showed that he was in agreement with his former master on this matter—and so the gas industry should be nationalised.
  The Opposition recognises that those four arguments are important ones, and must be fully answered to justify our attitude to this Bill. Let me try forthwith to deal with them. The first argument advocating Parliamentary control over the gas industry can be answered quite briefly. Parliament has been watching and debating the affairs of the gas industry for more than 136 years. There are more than 2,100 Acts of Parliament relating to gas, and no less than 1,172 Special Orders. Indeed, the Heyworth Report asserts that Parliamentary controls have retarded the development of the gas industry. I have said all that need be said about the abundance of Parliamentary controls over the gas industry.
  Now for the second nationalisation argument. Are we dealing with an inefficient industry? The British gas industry is recognised as the most efficient in Europe, and has plenty of admirers in the United States of America. The quality that I most admire about the industry is its liveliness. It could not have survived without this attractive quality. The gas industry has had to fight for its life. The impact of electricity on the gas industry was devastating. The pioneers of electricity gloated over the impending doom of gas. They were more arrogant than the railway promoters prophesying the ruin of the stage coaches, or the motor makers contemplating the doom of the hansom cab.
  Electricity and, later on, oil competition braced the gas industry to do great things. Dr. Johnson said that if a man knows he is to be hanged, it concentrates his mind wonderfully. Electricity concentrated the mind of gas as well as its energies, when it discovered that the fate outlined by Dr. Johnson might come its way. To survive, gas had to encourage personal service, salesmanship and zeal in finding new markets for its products. Competition has always been keen between gas and electricity. Sometimes it has been unfair. The Minister must know that municipalities owning electricity undertakings passed unfair bylaws and overplayed the merits of the all-electric house. Broadcasting greatly

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  advantaged electricity competition. The answer of gas to such competition was wholly admirable. Let them all come! No, the gas industry cannot be nationalised on the ground of inefficiency, because it is led by men eager to develop its manifold opportunities. If there be truth in the sombre warnings of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, this is not the time to wrest it from the capable hands of its present leaders.
  Let us consider the third argument for nationalisation. Ought this industry to be taken over by the State because of labour troubles? In this respect gas is a model for all British industries and a model for His Majesty's Government as an employer of labour. No serious labour troubles have marred its growth for nearly 30 years. It affords the best example of co-partnership in Britain. Later on, I shall have something to say about this Bill's destruction of co-partnership. Meanwhile, I assert that there is no justification for nationalising the gas industry because of faulty labour relationships.
  Now let me turn to the fourth argument, the trilogy, which is the copyright of the Secretary of State for War, who unfortunately is not present. The right hon. Gentleman declared that gas was part of his trilogy—coal, gas and electricity. "Trilogy" means three tragedies in quick succession. How apt was the right hon. Gentleman's choice of language. The right hon. Gentleman believes that gas is complementary to coal and electricity. For their own good reasons, those in the electricity industry have been pushing a lot of propaganda into the right hon. Gentleman's mind. They always wished that that view should prevail, for their own very good reasons. Gas should not be complementary to electricity, but, in the public interest, it should be fiercely competitive.
  I wish to say a word or two about the right hon. Gentleman's reference to coal. Although gas is the best customer of coal, the industries are not complementary. Their prospects and problems are wholly different. "Complement" is defined, I believe, as "to make complete, or perfect." If the gas industry is tied to the Coal Board inside the Ministry of Fuel and Power, it will not be made perfect; it will be hamstrung. The
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  nationalised gas industry will be the last and least of the trilogy. If anyone doubts this, let him consider how gas has fared under the Coal Board's monopoly.
  The faulty allocation methods of the Coal Board greatly handicap the gas industry today. Gas plants are designed to carbonise good quality coal, and not meant to absorb the dirt, slates, and stuff that looks like broken tombstones, which have often been sold at high prices by the Coal Board. Before the war the gas industry sampled all coal before placing orders. If deliveries were not up to standard, the supplier was changed. Now they must take the stuff sent them by the Coal Board, and be thankful. It would be wrong to assert that all the coal supplied by the Coal Board to the gas industry is always bad, but the quality is disconcertingly uneven. The Coal Board have many problems, and one must not be over censorious. It is, however, true that in a vast monopoly quantity is always preferred to quality. Today the gas industry cannot get the service it received from its former suppliers, and to add to its grievances, it is known that too much good gas-making coal is sent to domestic and industrial consumers, although they, too, get their ration of dirt and slate.
  If the gas industry is to prosper, it must be led by men of independence, who will stand up to the Coal Board. What hope have such men in a Ministry of Fuel and Power that must for long be dominated by coal interests? They have great political power. Some of the most respected Members of this House represent mining constituencies. The gas industry neither possesses, nor seeks, political influence. So much for the trilogy argument.
  I have tried as clearly as I could to answer the four main arguments for nationalising gas. There is nothing in that answer that claims perfection for the industry. Many improvements and developments have been deferred through no fault of the industry. The most urgent, as the Minister said today, is integration. I agree entirely with the Minister's argument in favour of integration. So does everybody connected with the gas industry. In that part of his speech he stated the case, also admirably stated by the Gas Council, and indeed, by all connected with the industry. The gas industry has striven for years for integration, but Parliamentary indifference before

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  the war, and Government decrees during and since the war, have discouraged integration. When the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council and I were Members of a Government, that Government laid it down that there should be no amalgamation of gas companies during the war. That was an arbitrary act on our part, and the industry has suffered as a consequence.
  Integration, however, made good progress before the war. I do not want to overstate this, but quite substantial progress was effected. But, as the right hon. Gentleman said today, it is very difficult to bring about integration without a great deal of labour and expense. That is partly due to Parliament's jealous care of everything the gas industry does. We are more responsible as Members of this House than anyone else for preventing the integration of smaller companies who could not possibly afford the money necessary for amalgamations.
  The Minister today did not deal sufficiently with the point that integration does not mean rigid unification. Villages far from the madding crowd cannot quickly benefit, or may never benefit from integration. There are certain villages in this country which no sane man could ever believe would benefit from integration. But, although geographical integration is sometimes impossible, functional integration has made great progress. Both are still capable of very wide development. How can integration be best effected? The past record and present burdens of Government Departments disqualify them from the task. The Opposition are often criticised, particularly by the Lord President in his less amiable moods, for not putting forward constructive suggestions. May I put one forward now?
  Mr. H. Morrison indicated assent.
  Mr. Bracken: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his permission. Let the Government appoint Gas Commissioners, with wider powers, and better paid staff, than those possessed by the Electricity Commissioners. They should be empowered to call upon the industry for plans for integration, to amend them if necessary in the public interest, and also given the power to compel them to be carried out. They should, in fact, be given general powers to supervise the
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  industry. The right hon. Gentleman was less than fair to the gas industry this afternoon when he said that the recommendation for integration through a tribunal was only made recently. It was in fact made over five years ago. I am not recommending a tribunal, but commissioners. I do not mind if my suggestion is not accepted—I am not an arrogant man—but I think it better in the public interest to appoint commissioners.
  Those commissioners should also simplify the mass of confusing regulations that hamper the full development of the gas industry. Most of these regulations are due to the activities of the House of Commons. I maintain that such commissioners should not be mere creatures of the Ministry of Fuel and Power. I further say that the House should maintain its ancient interest in the gas industry by helping to stir up the commissioners.
  Can anyone assert that the Minister of Fuel and Power has the time or the staff necessary to fulfil the tremendous responsibilities conferred by this Bill? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that he has? I do not think he is, so I will not ask him to answer the question at the moment. I think he will agree that his civil servants are grossly overworked. Their coal responsibilities are more than enough to occupy their time. Up to the present moment the Coal Board is no striking example of the team spirit. Is the Minister satisfied that there are no divisions on the Board now? Has he received no resignations recently? It is, of course, no secret that a scheme of reorganisation is in preparation for the coal industry, and the Ministry of Fuel and Power have given up a great deal of time to examining that scheme.
  On 1st April—what an appropriate day—the Minister becomes responsible for the huge electricity industry. That will cast more burdens on his civil servants. The Minister exercises a certain control over oil. As the right hon. Gentleman and his staff are painfully aware, that control is no sinecure. With all these undischarged responsibilities, the Minister now asks Parliament to give his Department the chief responsibility for the management and policy of the gas industry. Anyone who doubts that the Minister and his Department are not assuming wide responsibilities for the management and policy of the gas

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  industry should read this Bill again. I have tried to calculate the number of places in the Bill in which the Minister is mentioned in order to obtain powers, and I notice that in 28 places the Minister is authorised to make regulations which have the effect of law. In 19 places the Bill authorises him to give directions on vital questions affecting management. The Minister may think that a laughing matter, but I am afraid we do not. In 20 places his approval or consent is required. Can anyone, therefore, say that the Minister has not got a tremendous responsibility for the management and policy of the gas industry?
  The Gas Council set up by this Bill was referred to at some length by the Minister today. I hope he will not think me disrespectful if I describe it as a farcical body. There is a passage in the biography of Sir John Sinclair, the first President of the Board of Agriculture, which well describes members of the Gas Council:
  "It was said of Sir John Sinclair without any ironical intent that Mr. Pitt valued his simple assent more than his advice."
  The Minister has certainly taken care to ensure a supply of simple assenters for his Gas Council. This wonderful Council was described to us by the Minister this afternoon. It has a chairman and a deputy chairman. They are not required to give full-time service. They may or may not have any experience of the gas industry; they may be bankers, stockbrokers, manufacturers or even former Ministers. The rest of the Council will consist of the chairmen of the 12 Area Boards. These area chairmen will be the Minister's deputies in managing hundreds of gas undertakings in widespread areas. Does the Minister really believe that in the midst of their heavy administrative labours they can find time to rush off to London to sit on the Gas Council? If they do, how can they think and plan?
  It is a perfectly absurd arrangement to set up a Gas Council all the members of which, of course, are nominees of the Minister and are 12 of the busiest men in England, bringing them from all parts of the country to meet a chairman and a deputy chairman, who may know nothing about the gas industry and who do not even have to devote their full time to the service of the industry. I
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  beg hon. Members in all quarters of the House to hesitate before handing over the gas industry to an overworked Minister and a Council of puppets. The Council has no adequate authority. Perhaps the Minister planned it so, for all its members are his nominees. All decisive power rests with him; he does not deny that. How much better, therefore, would it be for him to accept my suggestion and appoint Gas Commissioners who can really attend to integration, instead of this absurd Council of his own nominees who have neither the time, nor, in many cases, the knowledge, to undertake this important work.
  I say that at the moment to hand over the gas industry to the sort of Council devised by the Minister will create chaos in the gas industry. Surely, we have enough economic and industrial troubles without creating more. Has the right hon. Gentleman an insatiable appetite for trouble?—because if he has, the gas industry will certainly help to temper it in a little while. Have the Government learned nothing from their unhappy experience of the Coal Board and civil aviation? Therefore, why not let the industry, under the supervision of Gas Commissioners, get on with the task of integration?
  Mr. Bowles: Who will appoint the commissioners?
  Mr. Bracken: The Government will. Surely the hon. Gentleman does not suppose that the Opposition will. When integration has been achieved the formidable risks inherent in hasty nationalisation will sensibly diminish, and by that time—I should think it will take at least five years to complete integration—the Minister's experience of coal and nationalised electricity may also diminish his faith in a nationalised gas industry. I am pretty certain that by that time we will have a new Minister, anyway.
  As the House will have noticed, I have been studiously moderate so far. This is but a part of the case against this boa constrictor Bill. The gas industry is much more than a distributor of fuel and power. Listening to the Minister this afternoon, one would imagine that the gas industry did a little bit of work in carbonising but that it did not amount to very much. I would inform the Minister that the gas

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  industry is not only a great chemical industry, but it has tremendous potentialities. It is the pioneer in treating coal as capital. I agree with what the Minister said this afternoon about the great wastage of coal in this country. We all accept the view that coal is Britain's only great natural asset, but we go on squandering it. We have squandered it in the past and we are squandering it today.
  The by-products of coal are much more important than coal as mere fuel. The gas industry has done a great deal to create new industries from coal, and if the Minister has a little time he ought to study the list of by-products of the gas industry. It will take him a certain amount of time because they are numbered in hundreds. The gas industry has created many new industries, and it can create many more if the resourcefulness and the zeal in research of its leaders are not chained by bureaucratic controls. I was hoping that the Minister would pay some tribute to the gas industry for being the only important industry in this country which for many years spent great sums of money on research, but he was silent on that point. Perhaps he did not realise it.
  Perhaps the Minister does not realise another matter of the greatest possible importance, namely, that this is the age of chemistry. A new industrial revolution is upon us, and the gas industry can play a great part in restoring prosperity to Britain. Britain's recovery cannot be achieved through many of our traditional exports. That fact is only too well known to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the President of the Board of Trade. Countries which before the war concentrated upon primary production are now rapidly industrialising themselves and are planning to compete with some of our traditional exports. Last September I was in a country which, before the war, was mainly an agricultural country. I saw factories going up all the time, to make goods which we can make much better in England, which will not only supply a market in which we obtained prosperity before but which will also play a part in developing that country's export trade. I beg the House to believe that if we depend on our traditional exports, there is no future for Britain. Our great hope now lies in developing the new industries.
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  As I said to the Minister, this is an age of chemistry. I also maintain that these countries, which before the war concentrated upon primary production and are now planning to compete with our own traditional exports, have great advantages which we, of course, do not possess. Many of them have abundant raw materials that strengthen that competition.
  The outlook for Britain would indeed be black if science had not come to our rescue by creating a new industrial revolution. Britain can become a vast laboratory from which will spring many new industries. We have the chemists and we have the physicists. We have the most skilful workmen in the world to translate their discoveries into industries or processes. That is our great hope for years to come. Gas has been the pioneer of new industries that have sprung from our laboratories. It can be the parent of many more. The leaders of the gas industry fully agree with the chief scientific adviser of the Government, Sir Henry Tizard, appointed, I think, by the Lord President of the Council. His contention is that by using modern scientific methods Britain can step up her industrial output by 50 per cent.
  Gas as the creator of new industries is deeply interested in helping to provide power for other industries, and particularly for new industries. As a power producer, the gas industry prides itself on being able to give personal service to new industries, however small. It is fair to say, in words devised by a former associate of the Lord President of the Council, Mr. Leslie, that the gas industry rightly boasts that its spirit of service is not equalled by any other industry. Mr. Leslie did a very good job of work in seeing that that point of view was put across to every industry in the country. Mr. Therm is eager and skilled in designing plant and supplying power to small and big enterprises. He can take on a job, whether it is for those who are engaged in vast industrial operations or for a very small man who wishes to start an industry in an old garage or any other sort of place, where he has a roof to cover his head. Gas will particularly delight in helping new industries if it can give a knock to its old foe, electricity. That indeed will add to its happiness.
  Gas is today a heat provider for more than 4,000 industries and trades, which

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  is a very significant figure. The Minister talked of the gas industry in a patronising way and said that if it was not nationalised it would probably disappear in the course of some years. Let me tell the Minister that in the gas industry the demand for industrial gas has increased by something like 70 per cent. since 1938. I beg the Minister not to come here giving us his airy generalisations about the terrible future that awaits the industry if it is not nationalised. According to the Heyworth Report, the industry may hope to increase its consumption by 20 per cent. within 10 years. The truth has been that the increase in the industry has run three and a half times more quickly than Mr. Heyworth and his colleagues expected. I would advise the Minister to study the history of the gas industry a little more carefully before he makes generalisations about its coming death if the virtues of the Bill should be withheld from it.
  Let me sum up the case for allowing to the gas industry the measure of freedom it has enjoyed. During its long life it has been the good servant of most of Britain's homes. It renders inestimable service to industry. Its charges have always been regulated by Parliament. It is the pioneer of many new industries and it can start many more. It is eager and qualified to serve the many and complicated needs of the new industries by which prosperity can be restored to Britain.
  There is another powerful argument against the Bill. It is one that the Minister has made no real attempt to deal with this afternoon. Some passages in his speech increased my doubts about the Bill. One of the main charges against the Bill is that it creates a complete fuel and power monopoly. The Prime Minister told us that we are engaged in pricing ourselves out of the export market. We are, indeed. From all over the world one hears the same story, that British goods are too expensive. The Prime Minister was not exaggerating when he said that we are pricing ourselves out of our export markets. Fuel and power costs enter into all our exports. Many of our competitors have easily mined coal, natural gas, and an abundance of water power to produce cheap electricity. If Britain is to survive such competition we
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  must strive to produce fuel and power at the lowest possible cost.
  Does the Minister believe that a rigid power monopoly will reduce costs, whether it is controlled by the Government or by capitalists? Of course, it will not. There is a strange irony in the fact that the President of the Board of Trade has announced that he hopes to introduce a Bill in this Session to curb monopolies, but here we are now witnessing his colleague, the Minister of Fuel and Power, setting up the biggest monopoly in our history. Why not allow the gas industry to serve as a spur to the coal and electricity monopoly of the Government? The Minister should remember that his cherished Heyworth Report recommends that gas should be enabled to compete effectively and without restriction with other fuel industries. It is foolish to believe that there can be free competition for gas if it is to pass into the control of the Ministry of Fuel and Power, which is also the master of the coal industry and of the electricity industry, and is deeply concerned with oil.
  The Ministry can settle the nature and price of fuel used by every industry in Britain. I predict that gas will be the Cinderella of such a Ministry. What protection has the consumer against this monstrous monopoly? The Bill gives him no protection. I read two reports in the Press today of statements made by chairmen of national boards. Sir Ben Smith, Chairman of the West Midland Coal Board, said that only two mining divisions under the National Coal Board made a profit last year. Are the other divisions still losing money? Will there be any further increase in the cost of coal, and consequently of gas? Lord Citrine, chairman of the British Electricity Authority, is reported to have said that the price of electricity must be raised as soon as possible. What a prospect for the consumer. The consumer is afforded no real protection in the Bill, save by the setting up of a Consultative Council of Consumers—whatever that may mean. Their position is very much like the status of the Bishop of Sodor and Man in another place. He is allowed to sit, but he is not allowed to vote or even to speak.
  I have not been able to deal with more than a small part of the effects of the Bill. I am sorry that I have spoken for so long, but the Bill is so important that I feel

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  that we must put the best possible case against it. I assure the Minister that we shall have many Amendments to offer in the Committee stage. I must make reference to two glaring defects—the compensation terms offered to the owners of the industry and the Government's conduct in destroying the most hopeful system of co-partnership in Britain. The Minister himself admitted that his ideas of compensation have been freely borrowed from the Electricity Act, without any regard to the fact that they are wholly inapplicable, not to say unjust to the owners of the gas industry.
  Furthermore, the compensation machinery in the Electricity Act will break down when applied to the gas industry. Many owners of gas stocks are inheritors of investments which are rarely quoted in Stock Exchange lists; others have never appeared in those forbidding columns; and in this respect I speak with authority, the compensation offered to local authorities is, as Alderman Leach says, a mockery of fair dealing—[Interruption]. I did not say "robbery," I said a mockery of fair dealing. The Minister proposes to take over their properties at less than a quarter of their worth. This is Socialist accountancy with a vengeance, taking over the properties of municipalities, in some cases municipalities with a large majority of comrades, at less than a quarter of their value.
  I hope that Members of this House, whatever the party they belong to, will see that justice is done to local authorities and even to stockholders. They have had the rawest deals through the nationalisation of their properties. I hope that the Minister will reconsider the terms of compensation. At any rate, I hope to have an ample opportunity of dissecting this monstrous ramp when we reach the Committee stage. Meanwhile, all I shall say is that the compensation terms in this Bill are more worthy of Senor Miranda than the British Treasury, so savagely mulcted by him.
  Let me say a word about the wanton extinction of co-partnership in this Bill. The Minister was very hesitant in his attempts to explain away the abolition of co-partnership. Is it a fact that the Minister yesterday, at No. 10, Downing Street, had to meet a number of aggrieved gentlemen who are protesting against the terms of this Bill? I do say that co-
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  partnership as defined by the right hon. Gentleman is something quite different in fact. Co-partnership must not be looked upon as a mere aspect of profit; it is something greater and better. It is the glad acceptance of a full identity of interests between owners of the industry, employees and consumers. It can answer the Government's prayer for an effective incentive to steady production. I know that, as the Minister said today, co-partnership is not popular with many trade union leaders—and many employers. These diehards have much in common. I have some little experience of the F.B.I. and I have some experience of the bosses of the trade union system, and I have never met a more remarkable collection of diehards in all my born days.
  I aver that co-partnership is one of the best ways of providing the good life that our people deserve. It can provide not only social security, and we in this party take a good deal of interest in social security because, with the Liberal Party and with the right hon. Gentleman's party, we were partners in devising the great system of social security which we hope and believe will not be ruined by financial improvidence. But I ask the Lord President, who I understand is to answer for the Government, to consider that co-partnership not only provides social security but also gives us social progress. The idea that lies behind co-partnership is one of the most constructive of our time.
  It is, of course, well known that co-partnership has been practised in U.S.A., in Britain and in many other countries. It has not flourished greatly. That, I think, is partly due to the fact that the industries which adopted it never attempted to convert other industries to the marvellous potentialities that lie in this idea. I believe that a proper system of co-partnership would solve most of the Government's present labour difficulties. I believe that if the trade union leaders would only realise it, co-partnership is the best possible way of giving a fair deal to all employed in the industry. Some of my hon. Friends who hope to speak in this Debate will give up most of their time to this great subject. We hold it to be a matter of paramount importance to the industrial future of Britain, and in our future discussions on this Bill we shall try to persuade the Minister to spare the co-partnership system.

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  Considering persons who have read the recent speeches of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer are reinforced in their view that Britain's future is in the balance. Let me tell the Lord President that we are not rounding recovery corner. We are, in fact, up against the worst economic crisis in our long history. It can be solved. We of the Opposition have no wish to exploit our country's difficulties—on the contrary. We will co-operate wholeheartedly with the Government in anything that will solve the deepening economic crisis, but it would be unreasonable to expect us to give any support to a Bill like this, a Bill which clinches a rigid fuel and power monopoly that will add to the cost of living at home and will price us out of export markets in many lines.
  In many lands the faint of heart and the small of brain believe that Britain's industrial strength is waning. We of the Opposition reject this defeatist trash, but because we believe that this Bill will hinder our recovery and will encourage the vultures hovering over our dwindling export markets, we shall oppose this Bill in all its stages. Let me end by telling the Lord President, the real begetter of this Bill, that Britain will never recover under a power miser.
  5.29 p.m.
  Mr. Williamson: May I first congratulate the Minister on his fine speech in support of the nationalisation of this industry? May I also congratulate the Government on the expedition with which they have moved since 1945 in regard to the fuel and power section of industry? Coal and electricity are under public ownership, and there can be no case in principle why the gas industry should not be brought into line. I say to the right hon. Gentleman opposite that it is not for the gas industry to act as a spur to the other two industries; it is for the gas industry, with its tremendous potentialities, to which my right hon. Friend referred, to take its place in the fuel and power industry of the nation.
  This is the time to pay a tribute to the gas industry and to all those engaged in it for the tremendous assistance which it has given to the prosperity of British industry in the past. The staff and labour
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  employed in the gas industry have served it with a loyalty and devotion which I believe will be continued when this industry is nationalised. There have been no major industrial disputes for 30 years. That is due in no small measure to the very good and happy relationship which exists between the management and the trade unions, through the machinery of that very fine National Joint Industrial Council—one of the first to be formed. Those of us who have taken a great interest in this council hope that some similar kind of machinery can be created for the future under the terms of this Bill.
  I do not think it is sufficient to regard the bringing into public ownership of the gas industry as just a change of ownership. There is no doubt, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite must agree, that the potentialities of the gas industry to serve as a fuel and power asset to British industry have never been brought into full deployment. Here we have an industry with small, inefficient stations and waste of transport. There have been instances where coal has been brought to the rail head, has been handled and taken out of the trucks, loaded into lorries and carted in those lorries 200 or 300 yards to the gas works, and then unloaded again. There is no time for that sort of thing to take place today.
  The gas industry has not itself used any method of integration in the past. Holding companies have taken a very close interest in many of these undertakings, but the right hon. Gentleman knows it was done on an inefficient basis even by the holding companies. A holding company, which was primarily concerned in the South of England, was taking an interest in other industries in the North of England, and in Scotland. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that it is vitally important that the gas industry should be brought under control under one authority—the Ministry of Fuel and Power—so that it may be used as an efficient industry, side by side with electricity and coal.
  There are three main objectives which should dominate our future policy. One is the progressive development towards integration on the production and on the distribution side, and the efficient utilisation of plant and labour. Secondly, we should ensure regular, adequate and uninterrupted supplies of gas and coke, at

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  the right prices. National prosperity depends on an abundance of fuel at the right price, as price can affect our internal and external price arrangements. Therefore, it is essential to bring the industry to the highest possible state of efficiency. Thirdly, it will be essential, and vitally necessary, to provide good wages and conditions. Those conditions should not be sacrificed in order to provide cheap fuel. Working conditions in the gas industry are not the most congenial, and wages must be such as will attract the best type of labour into this industry.
  I am making no charge whatever against employers who have sat through the years on the National Joint Industrial Council, but this industry has not had a fair deal in many respects. I would mention one instance which occurred during the war, when the wages of other workers were being increased, because of war conditions. The Board of Trade clamped down on gas prices, and employers had to use that against the employees' representatives when they asked that they might be treated similarly to other workers. It is not to the advantage of the industry that the men should lose confidence in the appropriate body which is responsible for negotiating their conditions and seeing that they are given a fair deal.
  There is no industry which has had to employ such a variety of labour as the gas industry. There has been in the past few years Irish labour—a great deal of Irish labour—German, Italian, Poles, and even troops, not because there was a trade dispute on, but because the vital supply of gas might have been cut, had it not been for the use of troops by the appropriate Department. I hope, therefore, that there will be a review of the wages and conditions within the industry. I believe it is justified, because it is an industry which is not a congenial one, and must therefore be made attractive.
  With regard to co-ordination, when this Bill becomes an Act I believe it will be detrimental if coal, electricity and gas are to be carried on as three separate entities. The Minister did mention this question of co-ordination, but I would ask what machinery is being devised in order that there can be complete and efficient co-ordination? How is the total energy load to be adjusted to the best advantage between the different fuels? Who is to
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  say which fuel or which form of fuel is best for which purpose? The Minister himself, under the Fuel and Power Act of 1945, is charged:
  "with the general duty of securing the effective and co-ordinated development of coal, petroleum and other minerals and sources of fuel and power in Great Britain … and of promoting economy and efficiency."
  It will not promote economy and efficiency to allow three separate industries to go on the even tenor of their ways without some authority being able to give some direction, and advise as to what forms of fuel are best for certain purposes.
  Something was said by the right hon. Gentleman opposite about our coal resources, and the need for the conservation of coal. Coal has become harder to win, and, in my view, we cannot rely on an increasing output of coal. We can rely on an increasing demand for fuel of all kinds. It is vital, therefore, that the coal which we do get is used to the best advantage. That is where the gas industry in future can play a major part. I hope that I shall not weary the House by referring to an extract from the Simon Report on domestic fuel policy in 1945–46. In a reference to heavy domestic consumption of coal in Britain, it says that 62 million tons of coal in the form of coal, coke, gas and electricity—or over one-third of the whole of the fuel consumed in Britain—is used domestically. It says:
  "As regards the warming of the house, most houses for the lower income groups are exceedingly badly heated. Normally, space heating is provided by an open coal fire, which is so inefficient that only one room, or indeed even only part of one room, is heated by a quantity of fuel that could be made to warm the whole house."
  Four million houses were built in the interwar years.
  "The area of the houses properly warmed for comfort during the winter is probably smaller in England than in any other civilised country"
  What an indictment. We are a coal producing nation. To sum up, the Report says:
  "We are using excessive quantities of coal; we are providing inadequate heating in the houses; we are pouring out masses of soot and tar into the atmosphere. In our view we cannot afford to maintain our low standards of heating; we cannot afford to continue to depress and destroy the life of our cities by smoke pollution; we cannot afford to waste our limited national coal reserves."

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  I quote that in support of my argument that it is vital that coal must be increasingly carbonised. It must produce coke, gas and by-products. We must treat our coal as a valuable asset—the most valuable asset that we have. We must treat it as it is treated by those nations which have no coal of their own and import it from us. They cannot afford to waste it. I hope that this great gas industry will be used in such a way that it conserves our fuel supply.
  There are two other points I wish to make. Something was said about competition between gas and electricity. I think reference was made to all-electric houses. I hope that we shall have no more of that nonsense. Because some people, usually the newly-married, thought that they would like to have all-electric houses, they were built without being fitted for gas or other forms of heating. When the people had been in occupation for three or six months and the bills began to come in, they went to the council and said that they wanted gas to be installed. These matters must have some attention. There must not be competition between the gas and the electricity industries in the form in which we understand competition. They must work together. Of course, there must be some spur to promote efficiency.
  No one but a fool would advocate any system which was not directed towards the fullest efficiency of both the electricity and the gas industry. We do not want the position where electricity salesmen approach consumers and say, "Do not have a gas cooker; have an electric cooker," and gas salesmen go to the same people and say, "Do not have an electric cooker; have a gas cooker," with the result that the consumer does not know which is the best. Reasonable advice must be given so that the best appliances can be used in such a way that the most suitable form of fuel is applied to the most appropriate purpose.
  I would say to the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) that there has not been any real co-partnership. There has been a payment which has been called co-partnership, or profit sharing. That has been in addition to wages, but it has not applied throughout the industry. I say without hesitation that the organised trade unions involved
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  are not sorry to see the last of that system. They are not sorry, because it is right that a proper wage should be paid in the first place. What is the use of talking about subsidising wages? Of course, there should be an incentive scheme for production. I suggest that in many instances these co-partnership schemes have militated against trade union organisation. To some extent they have militated against the workpeople being able to secure the proper conditions. It is for that reason that I say that we will not be sorry to see the last of these co-partnership schemes.
  The Minister rightly said that there can be incentive schemes. This industry is to be brought into public ownership. We should not want to infect the minds of more people than is absolutely necessary with the bug of profit. Therefore, these profit sharing and co-partnership schemes must go. I welcome this Bill. When it becomes an Act I am sure that the gas industry under public ownership, working side by side with coal and electricity, will make a great contribution to the future prosperity of British industry.
  5.47 p.m.
  Sir Peter Bennett: I join with the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) in congratulating the Minister on the very clear way in which he put over his case. I should also like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth on the way he pulled it to pieces. Now we know where we are. My right hon. Friend hinted that instead of each of us attempting to cover the whole of this Bill, the scheme of hon. Members on this side of the House would be to concentrate upon certain details. I wish to speak on one particular point. I will not follow the line taken by the hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. Williamson). I listened attentively to his speech. I have often congratulated hon. Members on their maiden speeches. I do not know whether on this occasion I ought to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on making his swan song. We have always listened to him with interest and, if he is going to a higher realm, I am sure that it will be the wish of the House that I should congratulate him sincerely.
  Before I come to my main point, I must say a word on behalf of my own City of Birmingham. There are a number

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  of members of the Birmingham City Council in this House, and other hon. Members have served on that body. I do not know whether they intend to voice the view of that municipality, but I could not let the House feel that Bradford was the only place in the country with strong views on this subject. At a recent jewellers' dinner the Lord Mayor of Birmingham was present with an array of Ministers of the Crown. They included the Home Secretary, the Attorney-General, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade and Members of the House of Lords who belong to the Labour Party.
  The Lord Mayor took the opportunity of saying some very hard words to them. He explained in no uncertain manner what the City of Birmingham thought of the scheme for taking over their municipal undertakings. Voices like that are quieter today. I do not know why. At that time the Lord Mayor was in an impartial position. Before that he was the leader of the Labour Party on the city council. He is now almost free from the ties of his impartial office and once more he is beginning to voice his own views. The Birmingham City Council feel very strongly that they are not being treated fairly. They think they know what is the best manner of dealing with a complicated local position in our city of a thousand trades, and they have developed their municipal undertaking for the benefit of the industry of the city. We all know what local pride is, and they are now very much concerned about their undertaking being taken away from them. They are also very concerned about the financial arrangements under which this is to be operated, and, rightly or wrongly, they think that this scheme is wrong.
  I know the argument which the Minister will put up—that this is just a transfer from one public body to another and that it is all for the public good—but the city council do not feel that way at all, because in our city there is an immense amount of work yet to be done, and they feel that they have been sinking a lot of money in this undertaking whereas they might very well have spent it on some of the things that still remain to be undertaken. Birmingham is a very complicated city through which to drive a car, as most hon. Members who have been there will know, and when the centre of the city was constructed it was not built for the dense
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  volume of motor traffic which we have today. There are therefore such jobs like the building of ring roads and the taking over of properties both for widening and rebuilding, and there is an enormous expenditure entailed in all these things. Then, we have to rebuild the outer ring of slum property and complete the city centre, and that will take many millions. Hon. Members can imagine how our city council feel about this prospect, now that they have spent all these millions on industrial development, when other cities unlike us already have a modern city centre and fine wide roads because they, have spent their money thus. In contrast with them, we now find that we have to provide the extra money for doing these things which other people already possess. I must put this point to the House, because I dare not go back to the city and say I have not done so.
  Now I come to the point which I want to make as a manufacturer about Clauses 1 and 2. These concern the Gas Council's powers to manufacture, sell and supply the equipment, plant and fittings. I am not arguing here on the question of distribution; other people on this side of the House, as well as on the other, will do that. I am concerned with the manufacture of the plant. The only limit which has been put on the Gas Council and the Area Boards is that they must not export the goods. They can make all this plant and these fittings which other people have done in the past. I want to tell the Minister that manufacture and distribution are two totally different problems.
  The gas industry, like the rest of the chemical industry, has grown up and has been developed by trial and error through a great many years. It has not suddenly been created, but the Government seem to think that they can create these organisations by passing Acts of Parliament. We cannot create an industry which has contributed so much to the community in that way. The industry has to grow, and it grows from very small beginnings. Some people succeed, and others fail. This industry, which has been providing the plant, equipment and fittings, is now in jeopardy because the State is going to take over, or is taking the power to take over, the manufacture of this equipment.

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  I know we shall be told that there is no need for the people who are now manufacturing this plant to be downhearted, that they can still compete, and, if their goods are right and the best that can be produced, they will get the business, but, if the State is going to take all the bread-and-butter lines and leave to private enterprise only development and research, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there will be no research and development. We can only go into research and development when we base them on the full circle of manufacture. It is the bread-and-butter stuff which pays the rent, and, when we have a large output, we are able to devote a large amount of our income to research and development and to making new discoveries. Public bodies are not good hands at trial and error, and if I were sitting on a public board I do not think I should be. I do not think that I should want to admit in public all the mistakes that I had made. I sometimes tell my people not to mind admitting making a mistake, because I make mistakes myself and they are the ones that cost the money, but, fortunately, I have not got a committee sitting over me which can probe into my mistakes in the full daylight of every day. We make mistakes, we overcome them and we come out all right in the end, but a public body will not work on that principle, because their main object is to avoid making mistakes, and, if one does not make mistakes one does not make anything. I cannot blame civil servants for not wishing to be publicly chastised for making mistakes, and their first object therefore is not to make them.
  If we are to have our equipment manufacture run by Area Boards, we are not going to have much risk-taking. We cannot imagine anyone going to the Treasury and saying, "I want £100,000 for a new development on which I am taking a chance." The Treasury protects our money, and the people asking for the money for development will have to answer to the Treasury for it. If we are to have these plants for the gas industry, I think we must leave them to the people who know how to do the job and who have developed it in the past. This is a nation which has made its way by adventure, and I want to see adventure still left open to people who will
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  take a chance. If we do not do that, there are other nations who will take the chances instead, and, therefore, I ask the Government, if they must take over distribution, not to interfere with or take over that part of the industry which is concerned with the manufacture of the plant.
  As regards the fittings trade, I have been in touch with the people concerned during the weekend. They say that it is no good telling them that they can have the export business if the Government machine—the Area Boards—are going to make the fittings for the home trade. We cannot divide the export trade and the home trade and put them into two separate compartments. Our export trade in the past has largely been based on the excess over the home market, and we must get the full volume in order to do it. We can understand the people who are concerned with developing gas fittings being very much concerned when they see in this Bill power being given to the Area Boards to make their own gas fittings, while at the same time they are being told to go on increasing their output for the overseas market. Our only hope of getting the overseas trade is to have a run at the whole lot.
  I, therefore, ask the Government Front Bench, when the reply to this Debate is made, to say something that will reassure our manufacturers that they will be given opportunities in the future to develop their industry as they have done so successfully in the past, and that our fittings manufacturers may be told that they will not have the basis of the export trade, which is the home market, run by somebody else and taken away from them.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. Bennett) took us first on a Cook's tour of his constituency, and ended by coming into conflict with one of his colleagues who is suggesting that, in the Financial Resolution, the amount of money to be put at the disposal of the Gas Council and the Area Boards should be cut down rather than that it should be left at their disposal for the purposes set out in the Resolution. He argued that Government Departments or public boards were not willing to take risks. But the record, so far as our nationalised industries, from the B.B.C. down, in regard to research and the

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  expenditure of public money on developments such as television, and, more recently, mechanisation in the coal mines, is certainly comparable with that of private enterprise.
  Regarding the question of manufacture—the point on which he closed—the hon. Member argued that the export trade could not be divided from the home trade. He assumed that the home trade was going to be taken away from existing manufacturers and given to the public boards. I do not know for what reason he assumed that. Presumably, the Minister, or whoever winds up this Debate, will tell him what is intended as regards the use of the power given to the Gas Council and the Area Boards in respect to the manufacturing of plant and fittings. I should have thought that the reason why that power was included in the Bill was to enable the Boards to be protected, and to be in a position, if it was not possible for them to obtain the fittings they required at reasonable prices, to manufacture them for themselves.
  I believe that, at the present time, very few gas companies are actually engaged in such manufacture. In other words, the power is included in the Bill largely for the purpose of acting as a yardstick for comparison with private enterprise. If, as the hon. Member for Edgbaston suggests, private enterprise is driven to sell overseas because of the competition from the public boards, then his opinion of private enterprise cannot be very high. I agree with him that it is just as well not to divide the export trade from the home trade. I would like to see removed from the Bill the prohibition on the manufacture for export which is at present imposed upon the Gas Council. I would much prefer them to be in a position to compete with private enterprise on equal terms.
  I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members were delighted at the brief and rare visit to this House of the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken). It appears that he has returned from hibernating at Bournemouth, for a short period at least. I listened very carefully to his speech this afternoon, and to the many irrelevancies it contained. It did not appear to me that he succeeded either in demolishing the case for nationalisation made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, or in putting up
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  any alternative to the scheme of nationalisation now before the House. He suggested that the case of inefficiency was not proved, and that there was no reason for nationalising the industry. But if he had listened carefully to my right hon. Friend the Minister, he would have realised that no accusation of inefficiency was made against the gas industry.
  What the right hon. Gentleman failed to do was to refer to the fact that there has not been a complete extension of gas supplies to rural areas. He also failed to refer to the discrepancies between prices in different areas, and to the other failures of the gas industry to develop in the way it would have been able to develop if, in the first place, it had not been hampered by so many statutory limitations, and, secondly, if it had integrated itself and formed itself into a far smaller number of units, and been able to operate on a larger scale.
  Regarding the Bill itself, the right hon. Gentleman had very little to say indeed. He hardly dealt with it except in the one particular, that of the Gas Council itself. He attacked the Gas Council as being the puppets of the Minister because the chairman of the Area Board appointed by the Minister would serve on the Gas Council with the chairman and deputy-chairman of the Gas Council. As an alternative to these puppets, as he called them, he suggested that there should be Commissioners appointed by the Minister. What is the difference between Commissioners appointed by the Minister and members of the Area Boards and of the Gas Council appointed by the Minister?
  Mr. Nigel Birch: We want them appointed in the same way as the Electricity Commissioners are appointed by the Minister, on conditions laid down after consultation with the various bodies, and because they are people who know something about the industry and not merely because they happen to be politically desirable.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: As the hon. Member is aware, in the Bill as it is now framed, there is a limitation on those whom the Minister shall appoint, and as to the field from which such people shall be drawn, both in regard to the Gas Council and the Area Boards. It is difficult to see the difference between the relationship which the Commissioners would bear to the Minister and that which

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  the members of the various boards would bear to him. I think that the administrative structure, as set out in the Bill, is a distinct advance on previous nationalisation Measures, inasmuch as it is on a federal basis, as the Minister pointed out this afternoon. There is the Gas Council at the centre with the Area Boards appointed for the 12 different regions. This federal structure enables a very large measure of decentralised administration to take place, and also a devolution of responsibility, which is so essential to the successful operation of any industry, whether it be privately or publicly operated.
  If we have too centralised a Board, and if it operates as a centralised functional Board in particular, it is apt to create a certain amount of what may be called "vertical bureaucracy," because, in each area, from top to bottom, there is a vertical reference back from the bottom to the top, which delays the operations of the industry. By the definition in the Bill of the functions of the Gas Council, on the one hand, and by the persons who are to constitute the Council on the other, it is quite clear that it is the intention of the Minister that the Gas Council shall be a supervisory, policy-making and planning body, and not a functional and executive body. That, as I have said, is a distinct improvement upon the more centralised Boards which have, so far, ben set up in other nationalised industries and have operated on a functional basis. Regarding the Area Boards, if the policy of creating them largely as supervisory bodies and not on a functional executive basis is also accepted, they will be more efficient and successful in carrying out their tasks.
  Mr. Scollan: Before my hon. Friend leaves that point, will he say from where he gets the idea that the Gas Council is a planning authority? There is nothing in the Bill to that effect.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The Gas Council is to advise the Minister and to assist in the efficient exercise by Area Boards of their functions, and one of those main functions will obviously be planning and the development of the industry.
  There are one or two points which I would like to put to the Minister
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  on which I hope he will give further information when the reply is made to the Debate. In the first place, I would suggest that, in view of the fact that local authorities already carry out the supply and distribution of gas to the extent of one-third of the industry, so far as is possible these existing agencies should be used by the various Area Boards. It is true that we have to have complete integration and co-ordination of the industry, but if existing agencies can be used to the fullest extent possible I think we shall retain the link with the local community, and retain the good will and interest of the community which is being served, far better than by establishing larger bodies which become somewhat remote from the actual consumer and which are more likely to cause a certain amount of conflict with him.
  I think there is in a larger body a great deal of danger that the community will feel increasingly that it is a remote body which becomes impersonal and lacks local knowledge. The use of existing agencies is something which, I think, public enterprise should do. If not, it will mean that the consultative councils, which are being set up, instead of working in harmony with and supplementing the public Boards, will be inclined to be antagonistic and to work in disharmony, which is something we want to avoid.
  On this matter of consumers' consultative councils, I would like to suggest to the Minister that there should be urgency in setting them up. I say that because it seems to me that there is inclined to be a gap between the vesting date, the day on which the industry is taken over by public enterprise, and the setting up of the consultative councils. That gap is not covered by the Minister, because the Minister refuses to take responsibility on matters of detail—which is quite right so far as detail is concerned. It means that the consumer is temporarily unprotected, and I would urge upon the Minister that when he is considering the setting up of the Gas Council and the Area Boards he should also be working to set up the consultative councils so they could come into operation, if not at the same time, then with as short gap as possible. That, of course, has not been done in the existing nationalised industries.

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  A further point I would like to make on consultative councils is this. They seem to be rather on the large side—from 20 to 30 members—and, further, the chairman is to be appointed by the Minister. When the personnel of these consular consultative councils is largely to be drawn from nominations made by local authorities, I cannot see why those persons who are nominated and appointed to the councils cannot elect their own chairman. I should have thought that if the chairman of this council was elected by the members, it would have been felt that there was a closer relationship between the Area Board and the consumer than will be the case if the chairman of the consultative council, who is to serve on the Area Board, is appointed by the Minister and not by those persons whom he represents.
  The Minister referred to the fact that if consumer councils make representations to him, after they have consulted with the Area Board, and if he considers there is a defect in the machinery of the Area Board, he will refer the matter to a third party and will then have the choice of either carrying out what the third party recommends or not. When matters come from the consumer, after being dealt with by the consultative council and the Area Board, and reach the Minister, I cannot see what advantage there is in the Minister going into this machinery of delay to prevent the representations being dealt with on the spot, or speedily, especially when it still remains his choice whether or not he shall carry out the recommendations of the third party.
  These consumer councils, important as they are, and important though it is that they should be set up speedily, as I have suggested, cannot in any way become a substitute for Ministerial responsibility. They should deal with local matters, with matters of day-to-day operation as they affect the consumer in the locality, and it is agreeable to see that there is provision made for small committees to be set up or for representatives to be appointed for every locality which is served by gas. Having dealt with local affairs, and having acted, as it were, as a buffer between the Board and the Minister and as a channel for representation, the consumer councils will not be dealing with matters of policy or with matters of general national interest, which remain the Minister's responsibility.
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  I think the disputes we have had in this House recently over the extent of Ministerial responsibility would largely have been avoided if there had been these consumer councils set up at the same time as the Boards themselves. In such cases, it would not have been necessary for Members of Parliament to put down Questions on day-to-day operations, questions of detail, and presumably hon. Members would have been concerned only with putting down Questions on much larger issues. It would then, perhaps, have been easier for the Minister to decide which Questions it was correct for him to answer, or where to assume his responsibility to this House. But, as the Minister himself said this afternoon, there is no difference between the wording of Clause 7 of this Bill, defining his responsibilities to the Gas Council and to the Area Boards, and the wording in other nationalisation Measures. Clause 7 reads:
  "The Minister may give to Area Boards generally or to a particular Area Board or to the Gas Council such directions of a general character as to the exercise and performance by those Boards or that Board or the Gas Council of their functions as appear to the Minister to be requisite in the national interest, and they shall give effect to any such directions."
  In Questions which have been put in this House to the Minister in connection with the Coal Board, and more particularly to the Minister of Transport regarding the transport industry, I think there has been too narrow an interpretation of that wording. The Minister has not interpreted the wording sufficiently liberally in regard to the responsibility which he has accepted.
  I know it is extremely difficult to draw a line of demarcation between what is considered day-to-day operations—matters of detail—and matters of national interest, of planning, general policy and so forth. I think the interpretation has been too narrow when Ministers—as they have done—have swept aside everything except the very largest issues—even matters which affect a large section of the community and would normally be considered by the ordinary Member as a matter of national interest affecting it. I know the Minister will exercise a measure of control over policy in the gas industry and I hope consequently he will answer to this House to that measure of control. We all know there are informal conferences, if not

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  formal conferences, between Ministers responsible for nationalised industries and those people who are operating them at the present time.
  We know the Minister is having an influence upon policies which are being carried out by the boards of nationalised industries. If he is doing so, if he is meeting those boards and influencing their policies, he is acting for this House in the matter, and he should answer to this House for the policies which he is discussing and deciding upon with the boards. In the second place, he should act as the mouthpiece for the boards to this House. Further, he should be willing to serve as a channel of communication for representations from Members of the House to the boards, if he does not accept the responsibility of taking any action in a matter which is raised. Hon. Members expect—and rightly expect—their right to question the Minister in the House and to protect the public interest to be preserved.
  It may be argued that the wording of Clause 7 is too general to enable a liberal interpretation to be made of the Minister's responsibilities to this House. If that is so I suggest that the wording of the Clause should be changed so that we know exactly what the Minister's responsibilities are. I therefore, ask the Minister, if he does not think the Clause as worded now gives him the responsibility to act as the mouthpiece of the House to the Area Boards and the Gas Council, and to accept Questions from Members on anything concerning general matters, to consider leaving out the words "of a general character," so that the Clause will read:
  "The Minister may give to Area Boards generally or to a particular Area Board or to the Gas Council such directions as to the exercise and performance by those Boards or that Board or the Gas Council of their functions as appear to the Minister to be requisite in the national interest."
  If the Clause were amended in such a way it would become quite clear that the Minister could give directions where the national interest is affected. We should thus remove words which could be used as a cloak of his responsibilities. I suggest to the Minister that Members of the House have a right to know, while this Bill, is going through the House, exactly the extent of his responsibilities,
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  and the extent to which he will be willing to accept those responsibilities in this House and to answer for the conduct of the nationalised industry. One of the main advantages of a nationalised industry is that of public accountability; and if we do not have that public accountability, we are in a worse position with regard to nationalised industries than we are with regard to private enterprise.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: The hon. Gentleman said that the Minister, in giving directions, acts on behalf of this House. Surely, he means that the Minister is acting on behalf of the Government which is a very different thing from having responsibility to the House? I hope he means that.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Yes, I certainly mean that he would be acting on behalf of the Government as a Member of the Government; but if the Minister acts for the Government he is responsible to this House, since the Government are responsible to this House.
  On the question of compensation, I regret in some ways that the Minister has followed the precedent set in the case of the transport industry and followed in the electricity industry, of taking the Stock Exchange values as the basis of compensation. In the case of the nationalisation of the railways under the Transport Act, it was a rough and ready way of assessing compensation. In my view, in the last resort it turned out to be a very generous basis on which to do it. Stock Exchange values can be criticised on a large number of grounds. They lead to anomalies, particularly as between one class of shareholder and another. They are no real test of values, either on an earnings basis or on an assets basis, though on the whole they favour earnings, which may be high for quite unsocial reasons. In the long resort they result in unnecessarily generous treatment, because the Stock Exchange value is apt to be an optimistic prophet. It is a poor prophet, but generally it is an optimistic one.
  Mr. I. J. Pitman: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the dividends are controlled very vigorously and have a ceiling? The argument he is advancing does not seem to me to apply.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: It is perfectly true that the dividends in the case of statutory

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  gas undertakings are controlled to a very large extent, but that does not alter the fact that the value of Stock Exchange shares does depend upon future prospects, and on the general view of the future of the industry, that is taken by investors at any particular time. However, I do not want to pursue this matter to any length.
  I do, however, want to suggest that in the case of the gas industry, that, because of the fact that the Area Boards are to become responsible for the capital burden which will be imposed upon the Boards—the capital burden created by the distribution of the compensation stock—the burden will be unequal as between Area Boards; that the total stock from one area to another will vary when compared measured on a comparable basis of production, and so forth; and that, as a consequence, the uneven costs and consequent charges in those areas, differing from area to area, will be perpetuated. If the basis in the case of the coalmining industry had been followed, and a global sum had been determined, and apportioned between the different districts, and if each district became responsible on a comparable basis, there would be a greater possibility of a more equal cost for the production of gas throughout the country and, consequently, greater equality in charging. It seems to me that the present discrepancies between areas will be largely perpetuated.
  To conclude, I would say that this Bill is a distinct advance on the other nationalisation Measures which we have had up to the present time; that it is an imaginative Bill; that the Minister has shown imagination in framing it; and I hope he will show equal imagination in carrying it through. I suggest that he should so proceed with the appointments of the consultative councils in the very early stages of the operation of the Bill when it becomes an Act, that we can have a real measure of consumer control and democratisation of this industry from the beginning. Further, I suggest that in his appointments of the boards he uses a little more imagination than has been used in some cases in appointments to existing boards; that he does not draw overmuch upon displaced directors of private companies, and that he does not follow necessarily the precedents of the high salaries which, in a great number of cases, have been paid.
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  I wish the Minister success in carrying through this Measure. If he uses a little more imagination, and if he succeeds in democratising this industry, he will be more successful in the earlier stages with gas nationalisation. It will be another step towards socialisation in Britain.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. I. J. Pitman: As an about to be displaced company director, in the words of the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies), I not only salute you, Mr. Speaker, him and the House, but I crave indulgence for declaring an interest. When talking on nationalisation it seems to be my fate to have an interest to declare. In the case of the Bank of England I foretold that it would be for my financial advantage, at any rate in the short view, and I said that my opposition was both sincere and disinterested. I do not know what my advantage will be in this case—I will not prophesy—but my opposition is equally very forceful and very sincere.
  I should like to speak from the organisational angle. I am sorry that the Lord President of the Council is not here, for he is very interested in organisation and is a great expert in it. Since it was the Coalition Government which appointed the Heyworth Committee, I am sure he would not deny that all sides are agreed that a Bill and action for dealing with the gas industry is highly desirable. The question is only, organisationally what is the best action to take in that respect?
  I propose to deal with the problem under four headings: first, interest rates; secondly, integration; thirdly, identification of interest of the employee in his employment; and fourthly, the point that only a single unit can give effective control and co-ordination. I have taken those four headings because I believe them to be the only four points which are claimed as the advantage in nationalisation over any other form of organisation. I shall seek to show in each one of those that there is an alternative way, that nationalisation is not the only means of achieving what is desired, and that there are other and better ways.
  First, interest rates. I put that first because I believe people do not appreciate sufficiently that, hidden below the nationalisation arguments is the fact that

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  after nationalisation the nationalised industry will be operating at an advantage in relation to its operation before, by reason of the fact that the interest rates will be less. The Railway Executive, in comparison with the old boards, will have an initial and great advantage in having to meet less charges for interest before they meet their expenses. Inherent in the claim for nationalisation always is this advantage of lower interest rates; but that is not an advantage so far as the nation is concerned; it is purely a transfer from one pocket to the other.
  We on this side of the House say that, if it is desired to redistribute the national income, then Income Tax, Surtax and Estate Duties are far better means than nationalisation. Moreover, if it is desired to do that by reducing interest charges we say that there is no need to go to the lengths of nationalisation to achieve that end. It can be achieved by the very brilliant proposal of Geoffrey Heyworth, in the report of whose Committee it is suggested that we should not only limit the interest rates paid out, but guarantee them—let no company pay more, but let it be certain of paying that and give it freedom to conduct its affairs on the strength of the limitation. We are constantly accused of not making practical suggestions. As an alternative to nationalisation, I make the practical suggestion, and one which will give the benefit of lower interest rates, that is to say that the brilliant recommendation of the Heyworth Committee should be carried out.
  Now let me deal with integration. That, of course, has been going on steadily and selectively. Wherever there has been a case for integration it has steadily been taking place; but by overcoming all the barriers to integration which the cumbersome and expensive procedure of proceeding by Act of Parliament in this House has imposed. In 1943, the National Gas Council, as the Minister said, recommended that integration was desirable. Similarly, that came out clearly in paragraph 230 of the Heyworth Committee Report, which the Minister quoted. It is something which stands out as an obvious requirement of the gas industry. However, there is no need to have national ownership and nationalisation to achieve integration. Integration has been going on naturally.
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  Not only is nationalisation not necessary for integration, but integration can be achieved either on the Heyworth Committee lines or on the National Gas Council lines of 1943.
  Again, if the Minister wants a further practical proposition, let him create, or take powers to create, in every gas company of the country and on every council a share or seat having no other rights, but having voting rights equal to 50 per cent. of existing votes. Then let him see whether there is obstruction to intelligent integration. There is less obstruction than he thinks, but if there is any let him deal with it as a matter of personnel selection in the selection of the board concerned. He will find that he will never have to use those voting rights.
  My third point is in connection with the claim that, because of the identity of interest between employee and the State as employer, under nationalisation there are better working results. We, on our side, prefer profit sharing and co-partnership as a means of achieving better working results. The Minister is not here, so possibly I may use the word "basic." The basic price company—of which the Bath Gas Company, of which I am a director, is an outstanding example of efficiency—is a fine system of profit sharing and of copartnership. A "bogey" is set by the Minister for the price of gas, and if management and workers together can save on that bogey, then the consumer has to get one-third by reduction of price, the stockholder one-third by a slight increase above the already limited dividend, and the work people get the other one-third in a payment. Now half of that payment is used towards the issue of stock which the workers themselves hold. I can assure the hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. Williamson) that there is no under-cutting of rates of wages on that system. Moreover there is nothing like the holding of shares in a company to identify the worker with the enterprise.
  Does nationalisation really identify the worker with his property? I wish to quote from a speech of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper) speaking in this House on 22nd July last, in the Adjournment Debate on organisation in nationalised industries. He is extremely interested in and good at organisation, like the Lord President. He was speaking of what he had found out

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  from talking to bus conductors about nationalised industries:
  "The opinion of the public, as yet, is such that they do not feel that sense of enthusiasm they should feel for an industry which is publicly owned."
  "As yet." How long has the Post Office been going? Is it really true that the Post Office worker has "that enthusiasm for public ownership" which he certainly has had time to develop and is his interest likely to be in any way comparable with that under a genuine profit sharing and co-partnership scheme? Later on, the hon. Member says:
  "If any Member of this House were to ask of anyone employed in a nationalised industry the question 'What does nationalisation mean to you compared with the previous conditions under which you worked?' I think he would find that the chief reaction was a sense of dissatisfaction and discontent."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd July, 1947; Vol. 440, C. 1180, 1185.]
  I believe that what he said is true. This alleged identification of interest because of nationalisation is something upon which this House will be very unwise to build.
  My fourth point is on this question of central control through a single unit. The hon. Member for Enfield has shown how hon. Members opposite are trying to have it both ways. Some of them are saying that the chief point of nationalisation is that it gives central, unified co-ordination and control, so that the Minister can say to a gasworks that it shall take its coal from such and such a person and shall charge its consumers so much. They definitely want central control, and the fullest possible co-ordination and control by imposed central authority. Others are running away from that idea and saying that nationalisation is not going to work in that way. They are saying there must be decentralisation, and that direction should scarcely be used at all. Hon. Members opposite must make up their minds. They are like the drunken man wanting to know which of the two next public houses shall be his next port of call, who slithers from one to the other because he is unable to make up his mind. Meanwhile we are justified in taking it that they really mean Socialism. We are justified in taking it that they mean to direct and control from the centre, and I shall therefore deal with the matter from that aspect.
  Now there can be central direction and control only by creating a big central
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  organisation, with central buildings and a large staff. Both have to be paid for, and the question arises—and this is an organisational problem—whether from that extra expenditure we shall get anything worth while. All I will say in reply is that size is seldom an advantage and that one of the curious effects of bringing into force the anti-Sherman trust laws in America, was that when the big units with central buildings and inflated centralised staffs were not allowed to have them but had to carry on with 48 businesses in the 48 States, their profits went up. The profits went up not solely because of the saving in head office expenses, but also because the smaller units did a much better and cheaper job.
  If there is one thing I blame the Minister for, it is for having given this House no time to discuss the Heyworth Report. I do not think any major issue of this kind has ever been approached so needlessly without the preliminary discussions which might have taken place. The big difference between the Heyworth Report and this Bill is that this Bill is proposing one central unit to cover the whole of Britain as the ultimate administrative head. On the other hand, the Heyworth Report lays down 10 million therms, or 2,000 million cubic feet, as the optimum above which efficiency in operation tends to degenerate or at least not to improve. Ten million therms is, roughly speaking 1/215th of the total production covered in this Bill. We on this side should definitely say that the effective organisation for the gas industry in this country is one of a 100 or 200 units, run under independent responsibility, and with central direction of only policy and of top personnel selection.
  The final indictment of central control is the inevitability of national "salary scales." The hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. Williamson) said a lot of sensible things. One thing which is clear, is that if this industry is nationalised, there will inevitably have to be "salary scales" for the whole of Britain. There will be the same rate of pay for the job, and in order to get any increases it will be necessary to go to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That is inescapable with central control residing in this House. I ask Members opposite to realise that this issue of centralised control inevitably means that each wage increase has to be negotiated on a

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  national scale, costing millions of the taxpayers' money, and that all the progress which has in the past been achieved by little incursions into the compliance of one small individual employer will, in future, be denied to the trade union movement.
  Finally, I wish to make clear three points of principle. If we had had our way, it is pretty certain that we should, whatever the organisation, have fostered competition by putting gas, electricity, coal and coke under separate Ministries, rather than under one Minister who is put into the position of being able to say, if there is any trouble with gas in any particular area, that the complaining consumer will have to take coke or electricity, or some other fuel which he controls. Secondly, local councillors and local gas directors have done astonishingly good work in the past, and it is of enormous value that they should be allowed to continue to render their services, as they are more responsive to the local people than a Minister, who does not act until we put down a Question in this House, or write a letter to him, which, incidentally, obtains its effectiveness only by virtue of the fact that the Member could have raised the matter by a Question. Both sides will thus agree not only on the question of competition, but also on the question of local men being retained.
  There must be an end to the hampering restrictions which have kept down the gas industry. There have been 2,100 Acts, and there have been throttling limitations and restrictions at all stages. All this should be done away with. We on our side should certainly do that, and we should see that no one was exploited, and we should have the dividend limitation which I am advocating. On what would have been my fourth point, I was delighted to hear that the Minister was at variance with the hon. Member for Enfield. The Minister has turned his back on a socialised gas industry. He wants the charge to be in relation to the cost, and not a "socialised" charge like the 2½d. stamp. He wants recovery of cost and variations in charges not a standard charge which is universal, which, as I understand it, is what the hon. Member for Enfield is recommending. It will no longer be possible for the Lord President to claim that this is not so much a nationalised as a socialised industry.
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  He may be able to say that it is nationally owned, but after what the Minister has said, this will be the end to any question of a socialised industry, and I am very glad of it. I am glad because a socialised industry, particularly socialised gas and electricity, merely means that we are subsidising the landlord at the expense of even the poorest.
  Finally, this Bill is bad, because whereas the situation is one which calls for greater freedom, the Bill substitutes different and, I suspect, more onerous shackles on an industry for which the real problem is to loose its existing ones.
  6.50 p.m.
  Mr. Pargiter: This Bill can be regarded as the logical conclusion of the Government's intention to nationalise the fuel and power industries of this country in the interests of all types of consumers. In considering this Measure, we must take into consideration the past history of the gas industry, in which there have been many small and inefficient plants which have wasted both heat and valuable by-products. That is the picture at one end; at the other, there is the picture of the large holding companies, divorced from the actual production of gas, and looking at the business purely in terms of stock values and dividends. Between these extremes there has been a large number of local authority undertakings which should now be integrated into one system. I hope the time will come when the coal, electricity and gas industries will be integrated to a far greater extent than is envisaged today. In the production of gas there has always been a great deal of waste heat which ought to have been applied to some other form of power production, and there should be some integration of gas and electricity production, if only to secure the most efficient use of the fuel which is supplied to those industries.
  One of the aspects of the Bill I would like to talk about in particular is gas examination and gas meter testing, which are dealt with in Clauses 51 and 52. I have never been in favour either of individuals or organisations being judges in their own case. It seems to me that the proposal of the Bill to take away safeguards which were thought to be necessary previously—that gas meter testing and gas examination should be the responsibility of the local authority—should be

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  reconsidered. I am not suggesting that all local authorities operated efficiently, but I know one or two which were very efficient. I have always looked upon a person who appoints someone else as being responsible, and I doubt whether the person below that level is really impartial. I therefore hope that the Minister will consider whether it is possible to devise means by which local authorities will accept the responsibility which they have had in the past, so that consumers may be sure that whatever test is applied it will not necessarily be a test in which the Minister is judge in his own case. It is very necessary that there should be some impartiality in this matter because of the great variations there can be in the quality of gas. That is due to the different ways in which gas can be produced. Great care must be taken in its examination to ensure the proper pressure of gas in the mains at all times.
  One point on which the Bill is silent, and about which many local authorities will be concerned, is the question of payment in lieu of rates. In view of the legal decision about this matter in the case of the transport and electricity industries, will a similar provision be made for the gas industry? If so, we ought to know what the provision will be, because it was found necessary considerably to alter the original proposal in connection with other undertakings. If a similar provision follows here, I think it will be subject to a good deal of discussion and anxiety on the part of local authorities. I am aware, of course, of the complicated system of rating which is applied to the gas industry, and of the direct and indirect production figures which make up the accounts of gas undertakings. While I have not the least objection to this complicated procedure being ironed out, local authorities will wish to know what provision will be made for them in connection with this matter. I welcome this Bill; I hope it will be the forerunner of the proper co-ordination of power supplies of this country. It is long overdue. The Heyworth Committee reported that some form of integration was absolutely necessary, and that they could see no alternative to public ownership—
  Mr. Pitman: Is not that going too far? The Heyworth Committee clearly said that integration was desirable, but they
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  did not proceed to the next stage, which the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned.
  Mr. Pargiter: They said that they were unable to see any alternative to public ownership, allied to increased powers to meet the need. That, to my simple mind, implies nationalisation. This bold Measure is designed to complete the cycle which the Government have put into operation. I hope the industry will go on to more efficient standards. We have heard about the freedom of choice as between electricity and gas. That will be made more readily available as a result of this Bill, and the conservation of our main asset, coal, will be enhanced. In addition to increasing supplies of gas and electrical power, industrialists and private consumers will reap the advantages of a non-profit-making undertaking.
  6.59 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Bower: The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Pargiter) referred to the Heyworth Committee which, he said, recommended public ownership of the gas industry. I would put it to him that their Report was based almost entirely on the supposition that competition between gas and electricity would continue, and was drawn up before there was any prospect at all of the electricity industry being nationalised. Now that the electricity industry has been nationalised, and there will no longer be competition between the two industries, we are entitled to assume that the whole basis of the Heyworth Committee's Report has been automatically destroyed.
  Mr. Pargiter: Surely the basis of that Report was that there should be public ownership of the industry.
  Mr. Bower: I will not go into all the detailed arguments now, except to say that the Heyworth Committee made it clear, in summing up their recommendations, that they regarded it as most important that there should be competition between gas and electricity. They assumed that the electricity industry would remain under its ownership as it then existed. That is no longer the case. Nothing that has been said so far in this Debate by hon. Members opposite has convinced me that the Government have adopted a wise course, even from the standpoint of their own tactical position

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  in introducing this Bill at the present time. The Minister said that he took the view that because coal and electricity had already been nationalised it was, therefore, a good thing that gas should be nationalised as well. He went on to say that he did not regard that as being a good thing from any doctrinaire standpoint. Despite the Minister's personal statement on that point, I am drawn to the conclusion, by the statements from other hon. Members of his party, and by the fact that the Government have introduced this Bill at this stage, that what they really desire is a nice big, tidy monopoly, with nothing left outside that can spoil the picture, or create an unsymmetrical effect, or constitute a source of difficulty or inconvenience in the future.
  I submit that is a very good reason why gas should not be nationalised at the present time. [An HON MEMBER: "Why?"] I will try to explain. Reference has been made by the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) to the statement of the Lord President of the Council that the nationalisers must prove their case. What better method could be devised of letting the nationalisers prove their case than to allow electricity and gas, the one publicly-owned and the other privately or municipally-owned, to operate side by side in fields more or less comparable, so that the relative advantages and disadvantages of each method of ownership and operation can be easily seen and assessed?
  Mr. John R. Thomas: Surely, the hon. Gentleman is not putting the argument that, in order to compare the advantages or disadvantages of nationalisation, he would make a comparison between two different industries? Surely, there can be no comparison?
  Mr. Bower: I am suggesting precisely that in this case. I suggest that in services such as gas and electricity, which convey more or less the same commodity, and operate in fields more or less comparable, a comparison could very easily be made. The fact that they have always been in competition should make it easy to assess the relative advantages and disadvantages of two methods of ownership by comparing the publicly-owned and the privately-or municipally-owned. If the nationalisers want to prove their case, that is what they should allow to happen. If, after a
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  reasonable period of time, the alleged advantages of the publicly-owned industry were proved up to the hilt, that would be the time for the Government to introduce this Bill, and criticism from this side of the House would be very largely disarmed. By introducing the Bill now, the Government are deliberately depriving the people of the best opportunity of judging the issue dispassionately and of making a fair comparison between the respective merits of public and private ownership.
  The Minister of Health said recently, in making one of his more profound but possibly less guarded remarks, that "bigness is usually the enemy of humanity." That is a statement with which I agree. This is a case in point. By setting up this joint monopoly, the Government are doing all they can to ensure that in this country henceforth the administration of the provision of fuel and power will be neither efficient nor humane. All the evidence that we have today from the replies which people receive to their complaints about the poor quality of the coal they are getting go to show that the consumer is receiving scant consideration, and there is nothing in the Bill to indicate, except in the most general terms in the Clauses applying to the consumers' councils, that the needs of the consumer are likely to be adequately safeguarded. All the safeguards which the individual consumer derives from the existence of competition—and I submit that they are the surest and most effective safeguards yet devised—are being ruthlessly swept away.
  I want to say a word with reference to compensation, particularly as it concerns the stockholders in the gas companies. I submit that to take the Stock Exchange prices, either actual or notional, is more unfair in the case of gas than in the case of electricity or the railways. It is well known that gas stocks are, for the most part, very tightly held, much more so than in either of the two other cases I have mentioned. That means that the holders retain them for long periods of time and rarely part with them.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: If they are tightly held and there is a demand for them, would not that mean that the price was certain to be higher owing to supply and demand?
  Mr. Bower: Not necessarily. If there is a small market, that does not necessarily mean that the price is artificially high. The fact that there are one or two sellers on a particular day willing to sell their shares, possibly to raise money for some special purpose, such as the payment of Death Duties, to one or two buyers, at a certain price, means nothing at all, because the vast majority of those holders are unwilling to sell. They do not want to sell on the dates mentioned in the Bill, and they do not want to do so now.
  If the Government, or anyone else, had gone into the market to try to buy up all the holdings in order to secure control of the undertakings they would, by this method, have had to pay a higher price than that quoted on the Stock Exchange at any particular date. The reason for that is, not that they were necessarily worth very much higher prices on the basis of the dividends then being paid, or now being paid, but because the holders consider that their shares represent solid and valuable assets in going concerns in which they are anxious to retain their interest; and because it offers them virtual continuing security of income to which they attach great importance. I submit that the only fair method of compensating these people is to say that expectation of income is not the arbitrary thing that it will be if this method of compensation is adopted.
  There is no evidence that this Bill is likely to benefit the public or that it is desired by the employees of the undertakings, which was, of course, the argument used with considerable effect in the case of coal. Not only will the employees lose money on their co-partnership rights, which is likely to be a source of considerable irritation, and thereby possibly a danger to the public, but no one can pretend that the psychological element arising out of years of bitterness and strife, which played such a large part in the demand for the nationalisation of coal, is in any way present in the case of gas, where, as has already been pointed out, with minor exceptions the most harmonious relations have prevailed for a great number of years.
  Finally, I oppose this Bill because it makes no contribution whatever to the solution of the grave economic problems which are at present facing this country and which are becoming more formidable
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  every day. On the contrary, by causing further dislocation and throwing still further and heavier burdens on to the Civil Service, it is calculated only to impede and retard the process of recovery.
  7.10 p.m.
  Mr. A. Edward Davies: I want to say a few words on this Bill, because it has such a vital effect on the industry in the district which I represent, namely, the pottery industry in North Staffordshire. Generally over the last decade or 20 years there has been an increasing interest in and dependence on gas for the firing of this type of work. In North Staffordshire we are most concerned, because great progress has been made in this new method of firing our wares and it has given us very excellent results.
  Gas, as opposed to the use of raw coal, gives us less smoke, less manual labour, greater precision in obtaining results, and generally leads to more scientific treatment. Moreover, we are not unaware of the great economy to the country and to the district as a result of the use of gas as opposed to raw fuel. I have some interesting figures which were given to me a few days ago by one of our eminent gas engineers. He said that if a ton of fuel were made available at one of our potteries for the firing of our china and earthenware, and we were to compare it with what would be done by the same amount of fuel where the gas process is brought into play, we should find that we would get the same work done but in the latter case at the end we should have 10 cwt. of coke, three gallons of benzol and 15 gallons of tar. These are very considerable items.
  I have already mentioned the great advantage which comes from the removal of smoke in an area like North Staffordshire, and in South Staffordshire, which is known as the Black Country, there is considerable interest in that aspect of our social life. Anything which will do something to let us have more sunshine should be encouraged with all our strength. The local authority, which is the main producer of gas in Stoke-on-Trent and in North Staffordshire, is concerned that there should not be any interference with the supply of gas for the firing of china and earthenware. A great deal of work has already been done and a great deal of success has been achieved. Already 120 ovens depend upon gas for their firing and a large number of others are to be

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  converted. I suppose there must be some further 300 or 400 ovens which can be fired by gas, and if the comparative details which I have given the House as to the use of raw material and gas are true, as I believe they are, it will be generally agreed that every encouragement should be given to the use of gas in the ovens for the firing of china and earthenware.
  Under this new set-up, we in North Staffordshire are going to be part of one of those large areas. We shall be under the West Midland region, and what we want to know is whether we can count on that intimacy between established pottery manufacturer and the man interested in light engineering and depending on gas for his business. Such has been the case in the past. We have been excellently served. We in North Staffordshire will be part of an area which will probably have its headquarters in Birmingham. If that is so, the House will see the basis of our apprehensions, and I am wondering whether the Area Board composed of half-a-dozen or eight or nine persons is to be further broken down.
  In the first place, I should like to ask the Minister how he is to choose the members of the Area Boards. Who will nominate these people, if anybody? Are the local authorities being considered? Has any consideration been given to the size or the interests of the areas involved? What we want—and it is the same problem as that which was exercising the mind of the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman)—is something of the personal touch in these undertakings. The hon. Member for Bath expressed the fear that where there was centralisation and great grouping there would be an absence of the personal touch, and he added that among workers there was a sense of frustration; there was not that easy access between the small firm and the centralised Board, nor that intimacy between the employer and the workpeople. That is not peculiar to socialised undertakings but is a feature of all large-scale monopolies and combines.
  What I have said is a fair statement of the position, and it is exercising the minds of Members on these benches no less than the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite. We are most anxious that this personal touch should be conserved, that
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  the needs of the locality should be understood and that there should be redress of grievances where they arise. We are told that in this Bill provision is made for consumers councils, but I wonder how effective they will be? I notice there is to be some special provision for the consumers in the districts to make their voice heard. Take the West Midland area, which is like any of the other areas in the country. It is a huge area in terms of physical space. What is happening in Birmingham is of very little concern to the people at the other end of the area.
  What we have to make sure is that there is some kind of intimate understanding of our problem and some kind of access to the people who are responsible. We do not want to be trooping from one end of the county to the other, or into a neighbouring county, to have some day-to-day details attended to. While I support this Bill, what I am saying is a useful comment on it, and it is the desire of the Government and of the Minister that we should be aware of these things and do what we can to conserve that intimacy and extend it.
  I wonder whether there is to be any further breakdown of the Area Boards. Could we not have some people in an area like North Staffordshire considering the problems of that area, not working against the interest of the region as such, but comparing its day-to-day problems with those of the people in the immediate neighbourhood as well as submitting proposals to the region? We do not want our engineers, scientists and commercial people to spend their time journeying from one area to another.
  I join with other hon. Members in expressing our appreciation to the members of the local authorities who have served on the gas committees and, in my opinion, have done an excellent job of work. I know that has been the case in my own area, and I know that what has happened there has happened elsewhere. We have been well served by the permanent officials, too, and we ought to give them confidence in this undertaking and give them that interest which the hon. Member for Bath was seeking in this new undertaking. It can best be done along the lines I have indicated. Let them know that they will have some latitude in which to work, that their views will be heard and that the executive action will not be

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  a matter for the Boards. Policy is certainly a matter for the Boards, but day-to-day administration must be in the hands of the executives who have served us so well. That is not to say that we should not safeguard the interests of the ordinary man in the industry, from the labourer right up through the industry.
  The hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. Williamson) was right when he said that much good work has been done by the gas workers. I believe they have been one of the most neglected sections of industry in this country. While we know that the problems which face the country at present are very difficult and we are asked to restrain ourselves, I do not accept the view that the Government's intention is that wages should be frozen with all the anomalies which exist at present. Indeed, they have said that if there is some kind of anomaly or inadequacy which calls for attention and redress, they will listen to the matter. Here is a case where they will have to listen if there is to be harmony in the industry.
  I wish the Bill well in its passage through its various stages. I listened with great enjoyment to the Minister expounding the various Clauses and adducing his arguments. I think he did well, in spite of some of the difficulties and fears I have expressed. I feel we have a chance before us to build up this industry which has a long tradition and which has done good work but which, in the nature of things has to be adapted to larger units. That can best be worked out in relation to the other aspects of the fuel and power industry—coal and electricity.
  7.24 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: I am fully in accord with the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. Edward Davies) in at least the first part of his speech. As representing a North Staffordshire constituency, I will carry my accord into the Lobby against this Bill. I must confess that the introduction given to this Bill by the Minister of Fuel and Power seemed to lack both heat and light. We on this side of the House expected that when producing one of their nationalisation Measures the Government would at least hold out to the public some hope of great progress. There was very little of that except in the last few moments of the Minister's speech when he talked about correlation, became slightly confused on the topic of
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  the co-ordination of electricity and gas—in France where that has happened a loss of 18 milliards of francs has been reported—and lightly skimmed over that. It was in a slightly dimmed blaze that the Minister made his chief point, which was that integration was to be achieved and could only be achieved by nationalisation. It has been clearly demonstrated by the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) and the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) that there are other methods of achieving integration.
  It has also been pointed out from this side of the House that much more is at issue than a matter merely of a few million cubic feet of gas or a few million therms. There are enormous possibilities of development in this industry; that is what the country as a whole is interested to know about and that is what it has failed to hear about from the Minister. His great claim was that this Bill offers a successful hope of integration. He has claimed that it is a federal principle, as though he were a Hamilton engaged in a mortal duel with an Aaron Burr. That analogy might be carried further, for it was Hamilton that died.
  Is that regionalisation or federalisation—whatever the right hon. Gentleman likes to call it—the same thing as integration? It has been demonstrated by the hon. Member for Bath that that is not necessarily so. The Heyworth Report pointed out that the unit envisaged is too big. There is a grave danger that these so-called units of integration, these Boards, will merely mean that all gas holdings in an area cease to be privately or municipally held and are merely held in the name of the Area Boards and that no physical integration of any sort occurs. The point of the Hon. Member for Burslem was that the people of Stoke-on-Trent would be gravely embarrassed by such a future. He pointed out that municipal undertakings at the moment have a very intimate and close relationship between their business executive and persons employed in various trades in their districts.
  In the case of the large-scale areas, the question of integration is not in the least clear. The only moment when the Minister's speech flew up to a fairly grandiose level was when he was talking about the national gas grid and putting the surplus gas from London down to Brighton. Such a thing would not apply

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  to an area like North Staffordshire. That was the only flight the Minister took, and it seemed to some of us it was a flight which had not been extremely well thought out.
  To refer again to the great boast of integration made by the Minister, there is one extremely important point on which he has made no effort to carry out any integration. This Bill might well be called not merely the Gas Bill but the Gas and Coke Bill, because the two objects of the Boards are to produce gas and to produce coke. In his opening gambit, the Minister dismissed, with what he called historical as well as logical remarks, any attempt on his part to take under his aegis the coke ovens, which at the moment produce more than 12 per cent. of the total gas production of this country, and 53 per cent. of which ovens are now controlled by the National Coal Board. Surely, here is a case for integration.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Perhaps I may refer the hon. Member to the Clause in the Bill which provides for full co-ordination in this matter, to which I also referred in my speech.
  Mr. Fraser: Surely the right hon. Gentleman realises that he made a distinct differentiation in his speech between integration and co-ordination? He went so far as to divide his speech into the relevant sections, one of integration and the other of co-ordination. The point is that he has shirked the issue of the actual integration of these coke ovens owned by the other section of his Ministry with the gas producing units. It has been pointed out by the gas experts that such an integration is not only possible but desirable, and yet he has avoided it completely.
  As far as integration goes, the case put forward by my hon. and right hon. Friends is almost unanswerable. It is agreed by all hon. Members that the unit must be made larger, but the unit to be achieved is not a large one but the optimum unit, and that can only be achieved on a functional integration. The right hon. Gentleman in his Bill has obviously failed to carry out the one functional integration which could be carried out with the greatest of ease, the integration of the Gas Boards with the coke oven dependency of his Ministry.
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  We shall reject the Bill because all the advantages which it can offer are not commensurate with the cost it would inflict upon the community, especially at such a time as this. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman regards the passage of this Bill as a form of trilogy. That trilogy has been completed in France, and perhaps we on this side of the House may regard it as a symbol of that third-force now rumoured to be gaining ground in Europe whose motto is not liberty, fraternity and equality, but loss, disaster and neither light, heat nor power.
  7.32 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Porter: I had no intention of taking part in this Debate until I read a portion of the speech made by an hon. and learned Member of this House, Sir David Maxwell Fyfe, M.P., at Morecambe, on 21st November last—
  Mr. Speaker: I think the hon. Member meant to refer to the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe).
  Mr. E. Porter: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. and learned Member for West Derby is reported as having made this statement:
  "I believe the prevention of nationalisation is a positive benefit to the country."
  He then went on to give four reasons why nationalisation was a failure, and said that it damps down initiative, it limits the freedom of the worker, it increases prices to the consumer, and it makes provision for "jobs for the boys"—
  "the greatest example of industrial patronage and jobbery this country has ever seen."
  This afternoon we had the pleasure of listening to something like that from the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken). I have been a member of a gas committee for over 30 years and, as a trade union official, have been compelled to take an interest in gas departments and their employees all over Lancashire. In reply to the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby, I want to say that when the municipalities took over gas works the same unfortunate statements were made, that the municipalities would not be able to run them, that they would be an absolute failure. The same remarks were applied to water works, electricity undertakings and the

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  transport systems of which the various local authorities have control at present. When I first became a member of a local authority it had three Labour members, and today my colleagues control that council of 56 members. When an election of officers on that local authority took place we used to hear then what was said recently by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Quite candidly I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was speaking from his own experience. I realise there is some bitterness about the Labour Party being in a majority in this House because, for the first time in its existence, it has the privilege of selecting judges, recorders, and so on, a privilege which the Tory Party had ever since they became a party in this country.
  Municipalities at present control one-third of the gas output of this country. Some years ago the United Kingdom Gas Company applied to our local authority to buy out our gas department. It is not many years since that company started, but today they control 76 gas companies in England, Scotland and Wales and their headquarters happens to be in Manchester. When hon. Members talk about centralisation, this huge gas combine has adopted the following methods: in 1943 they purchased in one section of Yorkshire 12 local gas companies, in another section seven local gas companies. In both sections they discharged all the managers and made one manager responsible for one group of gas companies, and from Harrogate to York they sacked six gas engineers and made one gas engineer do the work. It is fair to state that they have attempted to reorganise the various gas companies of which they took charge, but because they could not purchase all the companies they would have liked, they have found themselves hampered in making progress at the rate they expected.
  What is taking place in the gas industry from a company point of view at present? I am sorry that the right hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) is not present because, in mentioning names, I want hon. Members to understand that I do not desire to introduce personalities. In what we call the Southern area of this country from a gas producing point of view, there is a gentleman who is much opposed to this Bill. He is known as William Henry Bennett.
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  He happens to be the chairman of 32 gas companies. How in heaven's name he manages to supervise them, he alone knows. Mr. Bennett is a director of 34 companies, and chairman of 32. On 11th April, 1947, the South Eastern Gas Corporation announced that the right hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke had been appointed a director of 24 subsidiary companies of the corporation. I am not casting the slightest doubt on the right hon. and gallant Member or on anyone else. What I am puzzled about is how they manage to be directors of so many companies. When one finds gentlemen in this country holding so many directorships, it seems quite easy to say that nationalisation can be and is a success.
  The Sheffield Gas Company is a wonderful concern, due to the fact that big undertakings in the steel industry operate in that city. They consume more gas than is consumed in any other big city or town in this country. They work in co-operation with the Sheffield City Council. Sheffield City Council are allowed to send three of their members to the monthly meetings of the Sheffield Gas Company. That is splendid co-operation, but this is how it works; the directors of the Sheffield Gas Company for every meeting they attend receive £50, but the representatives of Sheffield City Council who attend receive a vote of thanks.
  I would like to ask those who oppose nationalisation to think over these things. Within 14 miles of Manchester Town Hall there are no fewer than 50 separate gas undertakings. Over a period of years several attempts have been made, both by gas companies and municipalities, to amalgamate those undertakings; but they have entirely failed, and there is no hope for them, except by nationalisation. They recognise that it is impossible to get agreement.
  What I have never been able to understand about the Opposition is that they go to meetings and make the statement that nationalisation is a complete failure, and in some way or other they expect even Conservative audiences to believe that statement to be correct, without giving the slightest evidence of where nationalisation has been a failure. I have taken the precaution to visit the offices of several foreign Governments in this city in order to obtain first-hand information. I have gone to offices which are in communication with

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  our Colonial Office, and from them I have received courteous replies. I have received all kinds of documentary information giving a complete history of each industry.
  I find that in Holland the State coal mines are a success and in Poland the railways have been nationalised for many years. At present Poland has adopted a method to get over her present difficulties by which all industries employing more than 100 employees on any shift are to be nationalised. The largest cotton mill in the world happens to be in Poland and employs close upon 10,000 operatives. That is nationalised. In India the whole of the railway system is owned and worked by the Central Government. In Hungary there are State railways. In Canada an advertisement appears in Conservative newspapers which says:
  "Canadian national railways. The largest railway on the American Continent."
  They control steamships, hotels, holiday resorts, telegraphs, airlines and air express services. I went to the Canadian Government offices and asked the simple but important question, "Is nationalisation a success?" They simply replied, "We would not be operating it unless it was a success," and they gave me all the particulars about it.
  Mr. Bracken: When the hon. Member goes to the Canadian Government he should ask them to tell him something about the Canadian Pacific Railway, which is a much more prosperous and powerful railway, and that is not nationalised.
  Mr. Porter: I am talking about things which have been nationalised, which hon. Members opposite have tried to make out to Tory audiences are a complete failure, whereas in our Colonies, and in other countries, they have proved a huge success. In New Zealand the same happy state of affairs applies. In Sweden the railways and the air services are controlled. The Sudan Railways are nationalised, as are the steamer services and hotel services, which we are told are among the finest in the world. South Africa, controlled by a Tory Government, I am told, have the good sense to own the railways, road transport services, electricity, docks and harbours. In Norway, State railways have been in
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  existence for many years, and at present, under the direction of an Englishman, they are erecting a huge nationalised steel works in the north of the country. I saw with pleasure a fortnight ago that the Norwegian Government have gone a step further, and have decided to control the football pools on matches played in that country. By and large one is able to say that the whole of our Colonies have controlled these huge services for many years. In Czechoslovakia the Secretary General of the Federation of Czechoslovak Industries wrote:
  "A new social and economic regime has been established in the Soviet Union by way of a great social revolution. Czechoslovakia, because of different economic and social conditions, of different historical development and political tradition, is approaching a similar goal in a different way, on her own decision and with the agreement of the vast majority of her people. The two pillars on which Czechoslovak democracy is building her new economic regime are the nationalisation of big industry and banks and economic planning. Both measures have received the democratic sanction of the people who, through their representatives, elected in free and secret elections, unanimously agreed to them and regard them as the means to a new and happier era in the history of the Czech and Slovak nations."
  They are nationalising the whole of the banks, the private insurance companies, mining, iron and steel and electric power. Nationalisation is not a new thing in other countries.
  In conclusion, I wish to refer to a statement which was made some years ago by a prominent member of the Birmingham City Council, and a leader of the local Conservative Party. He said, on behalf of the industry, that it was necessary that gas, electricity, transport and water, along with other public services, should be managed and brought to their highest pitch of efficiency so that in every way they could assist the various industries of Birmingham to compete with countries abroad. Taking that broad view, and bearing in mind that for years to come this country will have to fight to send its goods abroad, I believe there is no other way of achieving that except by planning and nationalising the main industries of this country.
  7.52 p.m.
  Mr. Heathcoat Amory: The hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. E. Porter) will forgive me if I do not attempt to follow him in the rather melancholy world tour on which he conducted us to

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  survey the results of nationalised undertakings. I suppose that if one cannot get the currency nowadays to go on an actual world tour, the next best thing is to go on an imaginary tour. I confess that I should prefer a less depressing itinerary and a more stimulating quest.
  I wish to speak very briefly on one aspect of this Bill, namely, the position of co-partners. I want to support what my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) has already said on that subject. It is a thousand pities that the provisions of this Bill appear to kill stone dead the various co-partnership schemes which have been developed so successfully within this industry over a long period. I am sure hon. Members in all quarters of the House who are involved in industry will agree when I say that the great enemy with which we have to deal in British industry today is not, I am glad to say, bitterness or active strife so much as apathy. That is the thing we should eliminate if we possibly can.
  If we are to do so we should, first of all, examine our prejudices—and we all have them—and our preconceived notions, and try to reason out this matter objectively. In trying to do so, I look on co-partnership in this way: I am one of those who do not believe that nationalisation will lead to increased efficiency or well-being in the gas industry; but that, hon. Members may say, may be one of my prejudices. The important point is that if this industry is to be nationalised, we must ensure that we do all we can to make it work well for the benefit of all those concerned. Surely, the reasonable thing is to preserve whatever in the existing structure of the industry is stimulating, efficient and progressive, and develop those things further in the new structure.
  It seems to me that one can reduce this problem to two simple questions. First, has co-partnership had good results to date, and does it seem to work in the right direction? Secondly, if it does, is it possible and practicable to continue it in some form under the new organisation? Applying myself to the first question, I know that some hon. Members opposite do not much like the principle of co-partnership. They fear conflicting loyalties and some interference with solidarity of the trade union movement. Personally I
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  always respect the opinions of hon. Members opposite who are trades unionists, because I believe they are practical and knowledgeable men who know their job. I respect their opinions, even when I do not agree with them.
  But, looking at the history of this industry, are there in fact any grounds for that particular suspicion? It seems to me that relations within the industry have been exceptionally good, harmonious and friendly. Joint consultation has been well developed and works successfully, and the conditions of employment have steadily improved. Nor do I think there can be any doubt that such co-partnership schemes as exist are valued by those who belong to them. The figures are impressive. I believe that 59 companies run schemes covering nearly half of those employed in the industry. The total capital owned by co-partners reaches the substantial figure of about £4½ million, and between the wars I believe the total sum distributed as bonus came to the very large figure of nearly £6 million. Add to that the fact that joint consultation is being actively developed and that under some schemes there are worker-directors, and I suggest we are faced with an achievement which it would be utterly wrong to ignore.
  If I may refer for a moment to my own experience in industry, such as it is, I have always found that joint consultation is still more effective if and when it is combined with an element of profit-sharing. It seems to add point, reality and spice to the discussions, and makes figures more alive and have more meaning. These two elements mix well and seem to reinforce one another. Ministers have been and are at pains to tell us that under nationalisation there will be still wider opportunities for the display of incentive, interest and participation of employees in running the industry. That is good, but, with a stroke of the pen, this Bill seems utterly to destroy the achievements of the gas industry in this field over 60 years. That, surely, is reactionary, wrong and very wasteful. With apathy the greatest danger, the Government seem to be stamping out a movement which really is leading in the direction of industrial democracy, which has proved successful in a limited way, is undoubtedly capable of further

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  growth, and is much valued by those who participate in it.
  That brings me to the second question: is it practicable to continue this principle in some form under nationalisation? Obviously, it is not practicable in the case of many schemes in their old form. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there will be no shares, and if these Area Boards run true to nationalisation form, it may well be that they will not be unduly burdened with profits either. Surely, however, there are ways in which the principle can be applied.
  I was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that Area Boards might find ways in which to provide incentive schemes of one kind or another. We really want him however to give a blessing in a more positive form than that. One presumes that it will continue to be a governing aim under nationalisation to encourage the greatest possible efficiency on the part of individual operating units. If that is so, whatever the system of accountancy selected, there obviously must be a basic cost. I presume that operating units will be encouraged to seek a reduction in cost below that basic cost. The difference between the basic cost and the cost that a unit succeeds in reaching should be divided in some way, so that the employees share in that difference, by way of profit bonus.
  Apart from this, there is the other advantage of co-partnership in its encouragement of saving. I should have thought it possible to work out some scheme for issuing some kind of special employee stock, a special form of British gas stock, to be paid for by the employees either out of their normal savings or out of their bonus. Something obviously can be done in that way. If, however, in spite of all this, the answer is to be "No," and co-partnership must go, I would then suggest that the question of compensation to co-partners requires to be more positively dealt with in this Bill than it is at present. In particular there should be compensation for employees on more generous terms than in the case of ordinary shareholders, on the grounds that co-partnership stock is generally subject to restrictions on the power of sale and that compulsory transfer is bound to involve the co-partners in loss of income.
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  In conclusion, I beg the Minister and hon. Gentlemen opposite to realise that the way to industrial democracy involves various approaches and should take different forms. It is a question of trial, faith and patience and, above all, of being on our guard against prejudices and oversimplified notions. The Government ought to hesitate before they throw away something which, in the minds of co-partners, is tangible and personal, in order to achieve something which is remote and impersonal. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look again at the history of this industry before deciding to abolish a practice which, without a shadow of doubt, has encouraged incentive, interest, harmony and thrift, four things which, above all, are required throughout British industry today.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. Perrins: I intervene primarily to correct an erroneous impression which may have been created by the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. Bennett) who, I regret to say, is not at the moment in his place. Those who heard his contribution would get the impression that Birmingham is opposed to this Measure because he said he dared not go back to the city without making that fact known. I represent one of the Birmingham constituencies within which is the largest of the Birmingham gas undertakings. I am very proud of the associations which Birmingham has with the gas industry. I do not propose to quote from Government publications. There is a publication put out by the British Gas Council. The opening words from this publication, which is called "The Flame" says that in February, 1792, William Murdoch, an Ayrshire man, representing the interests of the great Birmingham engineering firm of Bolton and Watt, developed the gas industry in the city I help to represent.
  From my point of view and I think from the point of view also of most hon. Members on this side of the House, Birmingham will be even more proud of the part which was played by a man who sat in this House for many years, representing Plaistow. I refer to the late Mr. Will Thorne. Many hon. Members will recall the fine work that he did in organising the gas workers who were thought to be unorganisable. People who were associated with Mr. Thorne have told us

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  how the men threw their twopences into a bucket on a great open space, close to where now stands Beckton Gas Works.
  I claim to know something about the people in the industry because I have had the privilege of serving as a trade union official. Hon. Members can take it from me that the manual workers in the industry have for many years looked forward to the time when the industry would be nationalised. They are not the only section who want to nationalise the industry. I have met similar wishes among supervisors, technical staff and managers. We who are close to industry are aware of these facts. Hon. Members on the other side ought to be aware of them also. If they are not, they simply display their ignorance of the people in the industry, who have for years felt that the best thing that could happen to the industry is that it should be nationalised.
  In Birmingham we have developed gas technically for many years. Our gas department provides a very good service. When one moves out of the city one finds a tremendous belt of possibly 2,500,000 people, especially in the quarter to which I am proud to belong. It is known as the industrial black belt and includes Wednesbury, Darlaston, Willenhall and other places. There is a small gas undertaking. Because the area of supply is small it is limited in scope. Obviously such small undertakings never could develop the technical side of gas production and apply it to industry in the same way as larger undertakings. Lay the foundations, having regard to present circumstances. The Birmingham heat treatment department could serve the needs of a wide territory and the knowledge they acquire can be applied to any industry using metals.
  The hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Amory) spoke about co-partnership. The workers in industry did not exactly welcome co-partnership. We know that co-partnership has militated against industrial organisation, and the people who participated in such schemes realised that they were making far greater profits for individual holders of shares than they ever got for their share. We felt that it was a brake on the machine. Why bother about something that is now going? There cannot be maintained, in the same set-up, co-partnership in certain limited undertakings while at the same time a vast
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  number of undertakings are left absolutely untouched.
  There are matters to which I hope we shall hear reference in detail in the winding-up speech. For years I was a member of a gas committee, and we found we had by-products in our gas undertaking for which there was no industrial use, and they had to be wasted. I speak of the liquor plant. At a later stage someone began to take the liquid away from us in bulk. We had no powers to deal with that. There is a tremendous avenue to be explored in regard to liquor and other by-products. I am hopeful that the nationalisation of this industry will open up a new era. I think it will. There is no industry which is more ripe for nationalisation than is gas. Many of these undertakings are already municipally owned, and the men in them are used to working under a limited form of public ownership.
  The hon. Member for Edgbaston said that the leader of the Labour group, the Lord Mayor at the time, spoke on the matter at the jewellers' dinner. When I heard him mention that I wondered whether he had tasted of the cup that inebriates while it cheers, until I recollected that he was a total abstainer and that that could not have been the case. I remember hearing that gentleman, when the Prime Minister was made a freeman. He did not say that he was opposed to nationalisation but that he rather regretted, and one can understand anyone regretting this, that at this stage the great Birmingham gas undertaking was passing out of the control of Birmingham Corporation. There is a difference between that and being opposed to nationalisation. One can have regrets of that character without necessarily opposing the principle.—[Laughter.] Oh, yes, one can. The hon. Member laughs. Let me give him an illustration. For many years I was a member of an urban authority. Amalgamation proposals were brought forward. To a man the urban council were hostile, but that did not necessarily mean that people could not see that there was something to be said for a greater unit. We all know the words,
  "Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
  Who never to himself hath said,
  This is my own, my native …
  Lieut.-Colonel Elliot: The hon. Member has got the quotation wrong. It ends, "my native land."
  Mr. Perrins: Then there is no need for me to complete what the hon. and gallant Member knows. The only point I am making is that there can be what is called in the case of parish a parish pump attitude and approach. I have often said that the same thing applies to a larger city. Except that the pump becomes a water tower, it is exactly the same approach. I have read this Bill and I feel that there is much good contained in it, and, therefore, I welcome it. The whole of the workers engaged in the more than 1,400 undertakings will welcome the Bill because they feel that with the State as their employer they need not fear that they will not receive satisfaction and a fair and square deal, and that there will be opportunities for a great widening and amplification of the scope of the industry.
  8.16 p.m.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: As always we are interested when we hear a speech from an hon. Member who has an intimate and detailed knowledge of his subject. I hope that when I am speaking on Service matters the hon. Member for Yardley (Mr. Perrins) will come and listen to me with interest equal to that with which I have listened to him. We on this side disagree with a lot that he has said, but we realise that he believes implicitly in what he has been saying. The only point upon which I should like to cross swords with him is that of whether the workers, as he calls them, in the gas industry are solidly in favour of nationalisation. If they are, I would say it is because they do not realise what will be the effects of nationalisation upon them in the final analysis. They have never had any experience of it, and it is not uncommon to feel that a state other than the one we are in is bound necessarily to be a better one. That is not a strong argument.
  There is only one valid reason for which any legislation can be introduced into this House, that is the argument of the general good of the general whole. Whether or not it is to the benefit of the workers in the industry is to my mind a point, but not such a big point as whether it will be a benefit to the millions of people who use
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  gas. That is a more potent and stronger point. The Minister today has not made out a case and has not shown in any way that this Measure will benefit the users of gas any more than they were benefited in the past.
  Mr. David Jones: Will the hon. and gallant Member deal with the millions of people who want gas but under the present set-up cannot get it because it is unprofitable to take it to them?
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I will. What hon. Members seem to forget is that there may be reasons. We have been at war for six years and but for that the steady progress which the gas companies were making would have continued, and many more people would have had gas, in the same way as many more people would have been housed. It is no use the hon. Lady shaking her head. It is a fact, not a statement of opinion.
  Mrs. Braddock: No.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Does the hon. Lady suggest that everything would have stood still during the past six years if there had not been a war?
  Mrs. Braddock: There are thousands of people in cities in rooms who have neither gas nor electricity, and there is no possibility of ever getting it under private enterprise.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I absolutely deny that. The hon. Lady has no evidence whatever to show that they would never have got it under conditions as they were previously, any more than any farm worker at the present moment can see himself, under this Socialist Government, getting water or electricity or a house.
  This great industry has been enjoying a state of steady progress through the years, in spite of the bitter competition from electricity which, at one time, it was considered would be lethal to the gas industry. Despite that competition, the industry has still progressed and is still virile and is still one of the finest industries in this country. The industry has shown progress and enterprise in face of competition. They have had complete industrial harmony for 40 years. There has not been a single strike, and we have had cheap gas. As a reward, there

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  has been introduced this iniquitous Bill, which bears very similar aspects to some of the other nationalisation Measures which have been introduced into the House of Commons. One of them is this question of the power of the Minister. We see it in all legislation which is introduced by the Socialists in this House. Why is it that the Minister is given power of nomination over the Area Boards? Why should not that be left to the Council which is to be appointed? If a Minister has power to nominate over the Area Boards, why should he refuse to reply to Questions on the Floor of the House in relation to those powers? That is a question we would like to have answered. It was not adequately answered by the Minister in his initial speech.
  There are very large aspects of the Heyworth Report with which we entirely agree. We agree that there was room for amalgamation, provided it was combined with flexibility, but we do not agree with nationalisation or public ownership as the complete answer, for the reasons which have already been given by many hon. Members who have spoken and for some reasons which I propose to give.
  Mr. Murray rose—
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I do not propose to give way. Will hon. Members allow me to continue my speech? I have sat and listened here the whole afternoon without interrupting one of the Gentlemen opposite who said much with which I did not agree.
  Mr. Murray: I would merely ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to develop his argument on amalgamation.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I am asked to elaborate my argument on amalgamation. I promise I will speak only for a short space of time. I do agree with the Heyworth Report in that amalgamation is necessary in the case of smaller areas and gas companies, but I say that nationalisation is not the solution to the problem.
  I mentioned the word "flexibility." I would like to know why it is that the recommendations of the British Gas Council with regard to the setting up of district management groups below the Area Boards has not been followed. There, again, we have another of the great weaknesses of these nationalisation Measures.
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  It surely must be obvious to the Minister, from what has been happening in the coalmines, that even the sub-area boards in the coalmining areas are too far removed from the problems of the individual pits to be able to deal with the day-to-day problems which arise. That has emerged as a result of the nationalisation of coal. One would have expected that the Minister would have learnt his lesson, and would have followed the recommendations of the Gas Council in this respect.
  We had one reference, during the speech of the Minister, to the Financial Resolution, and the question of capital expenditure. One of the features of this Bill which I hope will be remedied during the Committee stage is that no ceiling whatever has been placed on the amount of capital expenditure which the Minister is empowered to allow under this Bill. If that passes on as it is without emendation, it will mean a large amount of the cost will fall on the gas user. I hope that point will be borne in mind when we come to other stages of the Bill, and in the reply this evening.
  In relation to compensation, here again we have the old Socialist theory. I have never heard yet—and I sat through the whole of the Committee stage of the Transport Bill—why it is not possible to adopt the principle of the maintenance of income. Surely, that must be the only equitable way in which to deal with compensation? So many hon. Members opposite have got a completely erroneous idea in this matter. They seem to imagine that there are a few rich capitalists whom they are hitting by these Measures. It is not so. They are hitting a vast number of people who have spent their whole lives working and who have saved up out of their own incomes, for their old age, and have invested their money, and provided their own insurance.
  I can speak with intimate knowledge on this matter, because there are thousands of them in my own constituency. Those people, as the result of various Measures which have been passed by this Government, are now in a very desperate state indeed. It is a race between the selling out of their capital—which they are having to do in order to exist—bankruptcy, and death, and one of those three is going to win. It is entirely due to the terms of compensation under the Transport Act, and various other Measures

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  which have been passed by this Government, and now it is being perpetrated in this Bill. It is a very serious blot on the legislation of this Government. It has been stated by one right hon. Gentleman opposite that those sort of people do not care two hoots. That has been contradicted by many hon. Members who have spoken, including hon. Members opposite, but they do not put their contradiction into practice. I suggest something should be done with regard to compensation in relation to those people. I make that plea to the Minister in all sincerity.
  We have heard enough about co-partnership from this side of the House to show what we feel in the matter. I deprecate that any measure should be taken to kill what is at the moment only a child. It could grow into a healthy, strong being if it were given encouragement. We all know what are the objections of the trade unions towards it. They are not valid objections, but are purely selfish. We, on our side of the House, stand foursquare behind co-partnership, and as a result of this Debate we know precisely where hon. Gentlemen opposite stand in this matter. I hope that the workers of this country will take note of it.
  It would be very interesting to know why this Bill has been introduced at this moment. With the Coal Board and coal nationalisation on the Minister's plate, and with things not going very well in the country, one would have imagined that right hon. Gentlemen opposite would have had enough to do to keep them busy in their offices for 14 or 15 hours a day dealing with administrative problems without cluttering up their desks and civil servants with further unnecessary nationalisation. If, when the country was stable again, they were prepared to bring in Measures of this sort there might be something to be said for it, but to do it at this juncture, having regard to the fact that the gas industry is perfectly sound, is quite indefensible. The time is not opportune and a case has not been made out for it. It is perfectly clear that it is just part of the Socialist theory that they must, while they still have time, get control of every individual in this country politically before they go out of power. I for one, for that reason if for no other, will vote against this Bill.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas: The last speaker mentioned, as two reasons for opposing this Measure, that the time was not opportune and that the passage of the Bill will do nothing to improve matters. I suggest that the time for Measures such as this would never be opportune for hon. Gentlemen opposite. Further, they could never be convinced that proposals of this kind would be either desirable or effective. Therefore, it is right to be frank and brutal and to say that we on this side of the House look at a matter of this kind from an entirely different angle. It has been suggested that such a Measure as this should be deferred until times are normal. I do not think that it can be claimed that times ever have been normal. I do not understand the meaning of that term when used in connection with the circumstances of life at any given moment.
  The position of hon. Gentlemen opposite in relation to a Measure of this kind is that they are not able to look at the proposals on the basis of merit. The gas industry is an essential part of the industrial structure of this country. The Minister mentioned that fact at the beginning of this Debate and almost every other hon. Member who has spoken has agreed with him. This Government have already placed upon the Statute Book two vital Measures of reorganisation in connection with the fuel and power industry. I refer to coal and electricity. I was glad to have the opportunity of serving on the Standing Committee which considered the nationalisation of electricity.
  This Bill rounds off, as it were, the achievements of the Government in their attempt to bring some order out of the chaos which had developed throughout the fuel and power industry, especially in the years between the two wars. Almost every argument advanced for the nationalisation of the coal and electricity industries could be advanced equally well for the nationalisation of the gas industry. For one thing, gas comes from that fundamental commodity, coal, as does electricity. I hope that it will not be too long before the production of electricity in this country will to a very large extent not be so much dependent upon coal. I hope that we shall have rapidly developing enterprises such as the proposed Severn barrage scheme. Even after schemes such as that have been achieved, it must be

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  realised that gas as a product from coal will be essential for a long time. I cannot foresee the time when gas, and particularly its by-products, will not be essential for the proper maintenance of social life.
  The gas industry is split up into a multiplicity of separate concerns—a collection of municipal undertakings, private companies and holding companies of varying sizes covering different areas and sometimes overlapping into other areas. Anyone who studies the problem of the future development of the industry must be driven inevitably to the same conclusion as that arrived at by members of the Heyworth Committee which issued its Report in December, 1945. That Committee was set up not by a Labour Government but by a National Government. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the Committee approached their task full of Socialist ideals and determined to arrive at the conclusions ultimately contained in their Report.
  Presumably the Committee were appointed because they knew something about the gas industry and were able to decide what was necessary to solve the problems involved. I do not know whether any of the members of that Committee were Socialists, but it is obvious from the Report that they have adequate and overwhelming grounds for arriving at the conclusions and recommendations ultimately set out. The Committee sat for a long time. It was the last of a number of Committees which examined the same problem and, to a large extent, the findings of previous Committees coincided with the findings of this one.
  Organisation for the purpose of producing gas at an economic price in sufficient quantity for all the requirements of the country cannot possibly be achieved on the existing basis of organisation and ownership. Nothing which has been said by hon. Members opposite has even attempted to disprove that contention. It is generally accepted that the present conditions in the gas industry cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely. Something must be done to reorganise the industry, to bring about a greater measure of satisfactory development and to produce gas at an economic price so that it will be available over the whole of the country to the millions of consumers.
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  Last but not least, steps must be taken to enable the whole undertaking to employ the workers under the best possible conditions at the highest possible rate of wages.
  It is obvious that in the organisation of a huge undertaking such as this, which is now split up into thousands of separate units, there is unlimited waste. There is waste in the manner in which the materials required to carry on the industry are utilised. Each concern buys its own materials separately. We have had in recent years the setting up of holding companies owning the capital of a number of small undertakings and acting, as it were, as organising agencies to cover the whole of such small or middle sized undertakings. Organisation achieved by a holding company presumably can only be achieved over the area in which the holding company happens to operate. Such holding companies are entirely excluded from the field of the municipalities so far as gas production and distribution are concerned. But the fact that we have found such organisation possible by holding companies is an overwhelming argument, in my opinion, for the application of the principle of one greater holding organisation, greater than can be established under the principles of private ownership. In any case, if it is good for the industry itself that a holding company should be set up to achieve economies in organisation and distribution, and in the financing of the various units within that organisation, then that good can be extended as proposed in the Bill.
  However, the proposal to set up Area Boards as public organisations answerable to the Minister and to this House is something essentially different from what is proposed or favoured by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. For the sole purpose of an organisation such as that proposed by this Bill will be the creation or development of an efficient gas industry for the general benefit of the country as a whole; whereas the main purpose of a holding company, I claim, and the main purpose of a private gas company, I claim, is not essentially the production of a satisfactory gas service, but the making of a profit out of the production and the distribution of gas.
  Mr. Pitman: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the limitations upon the statutory

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  gas companies which prevent the making of a profit even for its retention in the business as an additional reserve?
  Mr. Thomas: I am aware of those restrictions, but I think it can be taken for granted that every private company endeavours and, to a very large extent, succeeds, in making profits and declaring profits up to the maximum allowed. What I say is that the test of a gas company, the test of any public corporation, is not necessarily the amount of surplus it can make after making charges for the commodity it sells, but the efficiency of its service and the reasonableness of the price charged, having regard to all the factors that are involved, including the general standard of the wages and conditions of those who are employed by it.
  That, I think, must be kept in one's mind in approaching the proposals in this Bill, and in considering public ownership as opposed to a continuance of private ownership. In approaching proposals for public ownership in place of private ownership we have to realise that we look at them from entirely different standpoints. I do not think that there is any Member on the benches opposite who seeks to prove that at this stage in the history of this country we have an efficient gas industry.
  Mr. Pitman: Certainly there is, and we have done so.
  Mr. Thomas: The hon. Member may claim it, but I say it cannot be proved, because the facts are overwhelmingly against such an assertion. There are various sizes of undertakings, there are varying charges, there are varying standards of service, and there is waste through the lack of co-ordination over the whole of the industry. There is waste in the failure over a large field—if not in the greater part of the industry—to set up, within the present regime, efficient buying agencies for the purchase of the raw materials and all the appliances that are required in the industry. If instead of this multiplicity of concerns—including, I admit, even municipal undertakings as well as the private undertakings—we had an organisation based on the proposals contained in the Bill, a public corporation answerable to Parliament, we should be able to effect remarkable economies in
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  the whole administrative arrangements of the gas industry as a whole.
  I mentioned varying prices. The fact that there are varying prices cannot be challenged. The remarkable thing about it is that when there is an amalgamation—I am not speaking of municipal concerns but of private concerns—there is greater uniformity effected sometimes. Therefore, even in the small amount that has been achieved there is an example of what can be gained in standardisation, not only of prices but of the quality of the service itself. Whatever saving and whatever improvements have been accomplished through the establishment of holding companies, can be achieved more effectively by a properly co-ordinated plan covering the whole of the country.
  Mr. Birch: Was the hon. Gentleman, therefore, in disagreement with the Minister when he said today that he was not going to have uniformity of charges throughout the country?
  Mr. Thomas: I am not questioning the Minister's assertion in regard to today's presentation of the Bill. What I am saying is that even if we take an area, according to the proposals in this Bill, we shall have the possibility of uniformity and the levelling of charges; and even if uniformity over the whole country cannot be immediately achieved, that does not necessarily rule out the possibility of achieving greater uniformity some time in the near future. In other words, unless there is a fundamental change in ownership, control and organisation, we shall not achieve uniformity in prices and charges, even over an area; there will still be multiplicity of charges and overlapping of services, which are the present characteristics of the industry.
  What alternative is put forward by the opponents of this Bill? I have already referred to the unanimous recommendations of the Heyworth Committee, none of whose members was, to my knowledge, a Socialist. The Committee arrived at their conclusions on the bare facts of the situation. If the main recommendations of the Committee are not carried out—
  Mr. Pitman: That is the trouble; they are not.
  Mr. Thomas: If the main recommendations are not carried out, then, were hon. Members opposite in power they would

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  have to produce some alternative. What is their alternative? Have they any alternative, save to continue the present position? I have tried to discover what is in the minds of hon. Members opposite, not only by listening to their speeches, but by reading what they have written on this and related problems. They can get no further in their outlook than private ownership. They cannot see beyond the goal of private profit. They cannot realise that the solution of the problems of such an industry rests on some new approach not only of organisation but of ownership itself. Ultimately, the nature of ownership determines the nature of organisation and the failure or success of any attempt at organisation. As the whole approach of hon. Members opposite to this and related problems is so different from our approach, it is too much to expect them to arrive at the same conclusion as ourselves. Our differences must be accepted as inevitable.
  It must be emphasised that this Bill is a natural development from previous Measures passed by this Government. This Bill was as inevitable as the Electricity Act and the Coal Industry (Nationalisation) Act, and rounds off public ownership of our fuel and power industry. Taking the mining industry as an illustration, is it not well for this country that the old régime has gone? If it is proven, as it is overwhelmingly in the Heyworth Report, that the full benefits of a reorganised coal industry cannot accrue without reorganised gas and electricity industries, is it not inevitable that a Socialist Government should regard the nationalisation of those industries as essential a part of the development and reorganisation of the whole fuel and power industry as was the nationalisation of the coalmines?
  I do not appeal for support from hon. Members opposite for a Measure of this kind, because such an appeal would fall on deaf ears. I appeal to them, however, to face the overwhelming fact that this Measure will put an end to private ownership and to the era of profit-making in the field of the essential services of this country. If those who follow us cannot produce better results after a century of public ownership than have been produced in the case of the coal, gas and electricity industries by private enterprise,
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  then I agree that nationalisation has been a failure. One thing does not need proving, and that is that private ownership has failed in the case of these industries to deliver the goods. It has failed for the simple reason that the ultimate purpose of private ownership is to produce profits for the few.
  I welcome this Measure, in the hope that there will be a further development at a later stage in the use of water power from the Severn barrage. I hope that we shall have an opportunity to pass a Bill setting up an organisation which will enable this country to utilise to the fullest extent the water power now running to waste. I wish this Bill well, and I am convinced that when the time comes our confidence in it will not have been misplaced.
  8.58 p.m.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I have listened for 20 minutes to the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. I. O. Thomas) developing a number of suppositions, none of which did he try to correlate either to what the Minister said earlier today, or to the facts which are common to both sides of the House. He devoted himself to a short peroration, in which he said that if I sat on the other side of the House, it would be necessary for me, having secured for myself and my party the nationalisation of electricity and coal, to nationalise gas and water as well. He said that the Bill was inevitable, that private ownership had failed, whereas the Heyworth Report, which he and the Minister quoted, shows that the target set for the gas industry has been doubled under private ownership. Does that show that private ownership has failed? If this Report is something which Members look upon as a sort of Holy Gospel which has descended upon them, then let them have knowledge of that Report, and knowledge of what the industry has achieved, instead of making puerile and facile statements which are founded on prejudice and show that they have not taken the trouble to study the elementary documents relevant to this Debate.
  Mr. I. O. Thomas: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman explain his implication that the findings of the Committee are not based on facts?
  Colonel Crosthwaite- Eyre: It is obvious that the hon. Member has not

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  only not read the Report, but does not understand what this Debate is about. We are not discussing whether the Report is founded on fact. The Report put forward certain targets. The industry has doubled those targets, and I am asking whether that shows that private enterprise has failed? I suggest that rather does it show that the statement that the industry has failed is completely untrue.
  We were told by the hon. Member for The Wrekin that the buying agencies have proved to be a source of grave disruption to the industry. Has he any idea of the circumstances in which the gas industry has had to buy its fuel since the coal industry was nationalised? Before the coal industry was nationalised it was possible for a gas company to demand coal, not only from a certain pit but from a certain seam. Now that cannot be done. Now, a big station has to accept an overall allocation of coal from a certain area, or even from any area, as the Coal Board orders.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the allocation of coal supplies to gas works did not begin on 1st January, 1947, but several years earlier, when the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) was Minister?
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: There was no intention, on my part, of trying to make party politics out of this matter. I am trying to show what happens under Government control, and I do not care whether that control comes from the Minister or from this side of the House. I am saying that before the war a gas company could order coal from a certain colliery, or seam. I challenge the Minister to deny that a company now has to take whatever coal is given to it from a certain area or a combination of areas. That means that it is impossible to get maximum efficiency from the gas retorts. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Pargiter) and the hon. Member for The Wrekin assumed that the Heyworth Committee were in favour of nationalisation. The hon. Member for Spelthorne went so far as to say that integration was equivalent to nationalisation. No doubt they have not bothered to read the Report—I have not seen any Member opposite with a copy of the Report in his hands,
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  although that may be an accident—but if they will look at paragraph 242 they will see these words:
  "It is not economically possible for gas to be provided everywhere. A national grid is not practicable, nor can selling prices usefully be determined on a national basis."
  Then there is this vital phrase:
  "Complete centralisation can, therefore, safely be rejected as inappropriate."
  Mr. I. O. Thomas: If the hon. and gallant Member will allow me, I would like to put him right.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: Then we are told by the hon. Member for The Wrekin that this Bill is the end of profit-making. That I can quite appreciate. I am prepared to believe that is true, particularly when I read that the Minister on 1st April—which as the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) said is a most appropriate date—in ushering in the Electricity Board intends to increase the price of electricity by 50 per cent. I think that is a particularly generous gesture.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I must contradict that, because it may give rise to misapprehension. I have made no such statement.
  Mr. Alpass: Is it in Order for the hon. and gallant Gentleman to impute unworthy motives to the Minister, and, when the Minister repudiates them, not to have the courtesy to withdraw?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): That is not a point of Order.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: The Chairman-designate of the Board has made certain statements. If the Minister cares to repudiate them, I am prepared to accept his statement.
  Mr. I. O. Thomas: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman give the source of the statement to which he has now referred?
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I am taking the statements made by Lord Citrine. If the Minister likes to repudiate them, I will be the first to accept that.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I understand that Lord Citrine said that it would be necessary, at some time, to put up electricity prices. He said that because, at the moment, as I indicated myself in an earlier speech, in certain instances costs are not covered

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  by the charges at present made. I also made reference to that subject at one stage in my speech today.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: In that case with all due deference—
  Mr. Gaitskell: There is one further word which I want to say. I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman what the fact that under their present ownership some electricity undertakings are not paying their way has to do with the profit or loss made in a nationalised industry? In any case, I would like to point out that no reference, so far as I know, has been made to a 50 per cent. increase.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: On the latter point, I understand that in the Press today that figure was mentioned. If the Press is not correct, I am the first to withdraw. I go back to my main statement that the electricity charges are bound to go up. The Minister has now agreed that private enterprise cannot make a profit. Whose fault is that? The Minister's, because the price of coal has gone up. One cannot blame the electricity companies for putting up their prices and then not pin responsibility on the Coal Board of which the Minister is, at least nominally, the head.
  The Minister made a most persuasive speech this afternoon, but he did not come to grips with any single one of the major problems which must face this House. He did not attempt to answer the fundamental question as to whether he believes that gas and electricity should be in competition. I hope that at some stage in this Debate we shall get an answer on that point. It is quite clear that, under this Bill, gas is to be the Cinderella of the Ministry of Fuel and Power. Both the Coal Board and the Electricity Board are given powers in relation to their younger brethren on the Gas Board of a nature which will make the economic working of gas impossible. I hope that we shall get some statement to show why this is.
  I should also like to have some statement about the reconstruction policy of the industry. The Minister today accepted an interruption made by me when I suggested to him that the sums of money which would be required by him under public ownership were wildly in excess of what private enterprise would need in
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  reconstructing the industry. He took me up on that. Let me refer him to the Government's White Paper on capital expenditure, in which it is said that for the two years immediately following acquisition, the Government, of which the Minister is a member, consider the gas industry needs £70 million. Why on earth will he demand £250 million from this House tomorrow night? No doubt somebody will be able to answer that. It is undoubtedly true that the value of the pound is changing very rapidly, but I cannot believe, despite the flood of White Papers that come out, that the value of the pound has changed so quickly between the time the Chancellor of the Exchequer issued the White Paper and the time the Minister informed the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what he wanted in the Money Resolution. But if I am wrong, I hope the Ministry of Fuel and Power will put in a teleprinter in order that the latest information will be available to him.
  I only want to deal tonight with one or two of the major points which the Minister did not try to debate. There is this question of compensation. He made a great speech in which he put up a large number of Aunt Sallys which nobody wished to knock down, but he then deftly bought three balls and bowled the lot down himself. However, he confined himself on the question of compensation to three statements in three short sentences. First, he said that this Bill contained the same terms as for electricity; secondly he said, "I have said so much about electricity that I do not want to say any more;" and thirdly, that this was the easiest, simplest and fairest way of dealing with the matter. He then left the subject rather rapidly.
  Let us look for one moment at what we are doing. The Minister and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, during the passage of the Electricity Bill, made many statements to the effect that if an industry was to be taken over, not only had compensation got to be fair but it had got to be paid to the rightful owners. Last year, as the Minister is no doubt aware, we discussed this subject at some length, but this year, despite the education we tried to give him, he has committed the same fundamental sin, in that he is taking over the assets of a company by buying the shares. He is still of the belief

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  apparently that there is some relation between the assets of the company and the shareholder in law, whereas, in fact, the assets of the company and the shareholders are entirely divorced. The assets belong to the company and the shareholders own the company, but to say that the shareholders own the assets is a complete travesty of the law, as he himself knows.
  One need only point out what happened recently in a case in which the Government took over Shorts of Rochester. There at the arbitration the value of the shares was given as somewhere about 29s. 3d. The company appealed, since the Government were taking over the assets of the company. At the appeal it was discovered that the value of the shares when representing the assets was 41s. 9d., a difference of 12S. 6d. a share. Mr. Justice Evershed, in delivering judgment—and I hope the Minister will bear this in mind—said that shareholders were not in the eye of the law part owners of the undertaking. The undertakings were something different from the totality of the shareholders.
  Here, again, we have the Minister solemnly telling us that it is fair to take over the shares of an undertaking and acquire their assets when he knows as well as any Member in the House that in buying shares we merely buy a stake in the company and in no sense participate in the assets of that company. Again one has only to look at one company, the famous shipping company, the P. & O., whose shares today are valued at about 52s. 6d., but the liquid assets alone of that company show a return to the ordinary shareholder of £7 a share. If the Minister were nationalising shipping and took over the P. & O. at 52s. 6d. a share, would he say that he was treating those shareholders fairly? He could not. From the illustrations I have given he must see that the whole basis of his argument is wrong.
  On several occasions the Financial Secretary has said, and committed the Government to the belief, that the assets of a company can be taken over by recompensing the shareholders. I would like to ask the Minister, or whoever is to reply, one simple question. Do they still believe that to be true? Do they still believe, despite Mr. Justice Evershed's opinion, that they can acquire the assets of a company by compensating the share-
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  holders? I do not know whether the Minister would like to answer me now—perhaps he might like time—but I hope we shall get a firm and clear answer to that, because of the difference between the robbery which the Government are now executing under this Bill and the fair payment of compensation with which their lips have been adorned both in this House and upstairs during Committee stage. Let there be no confusion about this—the Government's terms for compensation are not only illegal and inadequate but sheer robbery. There is no other term for it. When the Minister talks about "simple, easy and fair," either he has not a clue to what these terms mean or he is deliberately avoiding the issue by using that negligent wave of the hand he learnt from the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and at the same time confining himself to three short sentences. He cannot have it both ways. I hope that during this Debate someone will tell us which is true.
  I would also like to ask the Minister another question concerned with the different terms of compensation which he has made available. Why has he decided to depart from the Electricity Act which has so far guided him about non-statutory undertakers? Under that Act they were given the advantage of arbitration. For some reason they are not getting that advantage under this Act. They are now to be disposed of either at their Stock Exchange value, should one be available—which it is not—or on a theoretical basis; but there is no appeal, as there is under the Electricity Act, to an independent tribunal to assess the rate.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Unless agreement is reached between the Minister and the stockholders' representative, a difference about the matter of unquoted shares is referred to arbitration.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I quite agree. Perhaps I did not express myself as clearly as I should have done. I apologise to the Minister. I meant that under electricity the non-statutory undertaker could appeal against the valuation set on his undertaking. Here in the case of gas there is no appeal against a theoretical Stock Exchange value. I would like to know why that is, and also why, of all the types of gas undertaking, the ancillary undertaking has the opportunity to get a valuation other than a

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  theoretical Stock Exchange valuation? Why does the Minister choose an ancillary undertaking for terms better than for the companies, great and small, statutory and non-statutory, which have served the country so well? That is a most mysterious thing. Perhaps the Minister can find the answer before the Debate closes.
  Compensation is being meted out in the case of mortgages and debentures on one of the most extraordinary premises that can be imagined. All debentures, whether they are quoted or not, are to be settled at an actual or hypothetical Stock Exchange valuation. All mortgages if they are quoted, will be settled at a Stock Exchange valuation but, if they are not quoted, will be settled in full. A year ago we asked the Minister this question—again may I have the Minister's attention?—what will happen when you have a mortgage debenture? Is that a mortgage or is it a debenture? The Minister at that time was unable to produce an answer and I hope that, after a year's thought on this subject, he will (a) tell us why it is that mortgages and debentures are separated, and (b) what is a mortgage debenture—is it a mortgage or is it a debenture?
  With regard to compensation to directors, when we discussed the Electricity Bill we gained some valuable concessions from the Minister for this class of person and, having heard the Minister during those Debates upstairs, I was sorry to see how much prejudice he has carried from the Electricity Bill into this one. He says that directors are to be personally responsible under certain conditions if they pay more dividends, if they dissipate their assets, if they do this that and the other. Again, I want an answer from him. Supposing you assume, as apparently the Ministry does, that all directors are crooks and rogues, what is to stop the company that wishes to dissipate its assets from appointing men of straw who then can dissipate them? The Ministry may come back on these men of straw under the provisions of this Bill, but it could not get a penny from them. All that the Clause is doing is to penalise directors as a class, and that is either playing to the benches behind the Minister in order to stir up a little cheap and local enthusiasm or deliberately deceiving this House as to the purpose for which the Clauses were introduced.
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  I was profoundly shocked by this Bill. It has all the sloppiness of the Electricity Act from which, apparently, the present Ministry of Fuel and Power have learned nothing. In it all the injustices that they perpetrated then, and on which they could not answer on the Floor of this House, are perpetrated again. The Minister, introducing this Bill, thought it not even worth his while, or the while of this House, to take up one of the challenges put to him in the course of the introduction of the Electricity Bill. He dismissed them all with the airy wave of the London School of Economics and said, "That is simple, fair and easy." If that is to be the standard of legislation of this House, I hope that we shall reject this Bill. It is without justice, without any promise for the future; it denies to an industry that justice and that future which it should have, and leaves us not in the position of having done something useful, but in that of having perpetrated a Measure which is not just either to those who work in the industry or have supported it, and does nothing to secure the future we all want.
  9.24 p.m.
  Mr. Mitchison: Let me begin by leading our country cousin, the hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) down the road from the London School of Economics to the more congenial atmosphere of Unilever House. After all, the Heyworth Report was produced by a Committee, the chairman of which was none other than that most experienced businessman, Mr. Geoffrey Heyworth. I appreciate the difficulty of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen when they find a report on the industry so wholly uncongenial to all they have been saying, and tallying in so many respects with the proposals in this Bill. The Heyworth Committee consisted of practical people, and I believe the chairman is chairman of the largest company in the world. They said that within the limits of the existing structure the industry today is reasonably efficient, but that the existing structure is restrictive of further future progress. That is set out in some considerable detail.
  Let us look at the proposals. It does us no harm after hearing what the hon. and gallant Member said, to consider exactly what was said in this Report. With that political honesty which we find in him

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  so often, he read out some sentences about the division of the country into regions—
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: No.
  Mr. Mitchison: If the hon. and gallant Member looks at paragraph 242 he will see that it is headed—
  "Division of the Country into Regions."
  He will find in the next sentence the point of the sentence which he read out.
  Colonel Clarke rose—
  Mr. Mitchison: Let me finish this point.
  "Division of the country into regions has obvious attractions, and is the solution we recommend."
  I asked the hon. and gallant Member to continue with the sentence, but he declined to do so. Quite clearly that section of the Report is discussing what it says it is discussing, the proposed structure, and is coming down in favour, as this Bill comes down in favour, of the division of the country into regions.
  Colonel Clarke: I wish to point out to the hon. and learned Member that the division of the country into regions comes in paragraph 240, and not in paragraph 242.
  Mr. Mitchison: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman goes a bit further down the page, he will find that there is also a reference to it in paragraph 243, and the headline refers, as usual in the case of a headline, to all the paragraphs which follow, and not merely to the paragraph immediately following. I cannot profess to be an expert journalist, but I think that obvious.
  Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: My only point in quoting
  "Complete centralisation can therefore safely be rejected,"
  was that no one on this side of the House has ever objected to reasonable centralisation of the gas industry.
  Mr. Mitchison: What the hon. and gallant Gentleman unfortunately did was to identify complete centralisation with nationalisation, but there is not a word of that in this Report. I propose to show that what the Heyworth Committee suggested is substantially the form of
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  nationalisation in this Bill, with one exception.
  I wish first to say a word about compensation. We on this side of the House have rather more regard to the public service of gas and the position of gas consumers, actual and prospective, and I do not propose to spend the length of time which was taken up by the hon. and gallant Member in discussing the question of compensation. I would only say one thing to him. He knows, as everyone in this House knows, by now, that similar terms to these have been offered to other shareholders and taken by other shareholders under Acts which are not wholly dissimilar from this Measure. It seems to me obviously unfair that what has been done in one case should not be done in another case, and that shareholders in one Bill should get preferential treatment over shareholders in another. As I have said before, I entirely fail to appreciate why the market valuation of a share should be any more inaccurate than the market valuation of a cow. Where there is a market valuation, I am no more prepared to measure shareholders' rights by dividends than the rights of owners of cows on the hypothesis of a continuing flow of milk.
  Moreover, it will be noticed that in the Heyworth Report the average rate of interest at that time on shareholdings in gas companies was round about 4 per cent. I suggest that the difference between that rate and the rate which these shareholders will get from the guaranteed stock they are to receive under this Measure is favourable to them, and represents for their benefit no more than the real difference in risk between a Government guarantee and a stock in an industry which has grave difficulties to face in any circumstances owing to the competition of electricity. There can be no doubt about that, and I am surprised that so much time has been taken up in discussing the question of compensation.
  As to directors, I am a director, and have been for many years, and I never knew before all the things to which I should become entitled if and when I ceased to be one. I find that directors, at any rate, have some remarkably eloquent advocates on the opposite side of the House, but there are other people than directors to be considered and those

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  are primarily the users of gas. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad to hear that loud applause from hon. Members opposite, for that means they should be the first to recognise that the existing structure of the industry holds no or little promise of future development. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh."] I am merely quoting from the Heyworth Report. It suggests that all gas undertakings should be acquired by public boards, and that there should be given, in place of gas stock, stock issued by those boards, guaranteed by the Treasury and bearing interest at a fixed rate. What is there inconsistent between those proposals and the proposals in the Bill, which merely varies them by making the issuing authority for the gas stock to be given as compensation one central body instead of the various regional boards? There is no substantial difference whatever.
  The terms of reference of this Committee were to examine the organisation and structure of the industry. They went as near as they possibly could, within their terms of reference, to say outright what would have been beyond their terms of reference, that the right thing to do with this industry was to nationalise it—[An HON. MEMBER: "No."] I am convinced that that is the conclusion which would be reached by anyone who has taken the trouble to read this Report and to consider it impartially, just as it was reached by public opinion at the time when the Report was published.
  Is it really sense, having regard not merely to the gas industry, but to the whole fuel position in this country, to leave gas unnationalised, to leave it in no way subject to the general direction of the Ministry of Fuel and Power, to leave it under some form of private enterprise, when we have already nationalised both coal and electricity? Surely, these three main branches of the whole fuel industry in this country must be organised with reasonable similarity and reasonable co-ordination? To nationalise two of them, and leave out the third, would be a step that only the most unreasoning political prejudice could possibly support. I say as a matter of plain ordinary business sense that, even if hon. Members opposite disapproved, and still disapprove, of the nationalisation of the mines and electricity, they must at least recognise the fact that those two branches of the fuel industry have been nationalised, and it
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  is against the public interest, bad sense, and wholly unworkable to leave out now from nationalisation a branch of the fuel industry which is obviously closely allied to those two, and can, and must, be run broadly on the same lines.
  9.36 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: Having listened to this Debate, and winding it up from this side of the House, I want to deal with the one question which people in the country and Members on all sides of the House have been asking, and which has not been answered. We have heard a great deal in recent times of the dollar crisis, of inflation, Communist infiltration and overworked Ministries—in fact of our prosperity hanging in the balance. One question which we want to ask now is, why is gas being nationalised at this time? It is that fundamental question which has not really been answered at all by the Government.
  The whole tone of this Debate was set by the brilliant speech of the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken). It was by far the best speech which we have heard this afternoon. He asked why it was necessary, in order to bring about reorganisation which everybody admits is needed, to bring this industry under public ownership and central control. I wish to show that the arguments which have been adduced by the Minister himself, and by hon. Members on the other side of the House who have come into this Debate, have not really seriously tackled this question of principle. On this Second Reading Debate it is a question of principle of nationalisation that we are discussing.
  With regard to the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) on the Heyworth Report and also those of the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. I. O. Thomas), it must be made clear at the outset—and I do not think the Minister will disagree—that the Bill, as it is now presented, is not on all fours with the Heyworth Report. That is a point which must be understood, not only in the House, but in the country. I am not going over the kind of arguments which we have heard about the various sections of the Heyworth Report. Suffice it to say that the Heyworth Report states that centralisation is not necessary in the organisation, and they do not bring directly into public ownership the shareholdings of the industry. Further than

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  that, the industry itself, the British Gas Council, has come out against these nationalisation proposals, and that fact should be fully understood. I refer to their document, dated 23rd January, 1948, in which they make it quite clear, in page 27:
  "Nationalisation of the gas industry, which political project has become as untimely, in present circumstances, as it is unjustifiable…"
  The industry itself, and a large body of public opinion, are against this Bill. It is only the Socialists who are in favour of it. Therefore, one must look to see what are the reasons why they should try to bring in this Bill at this time. I remember some of the Minister's previous speeches. In this Debate gone was the fiery eloquence he used when he talked about coal. Gone, too, was the rather monotonous conviction he had when he talked about electricity. All that was left was a certain hesitancy which seemed to be born of overwork and the knowledge that his Ministry was already overworked and understaffed. He felt that it was another burden to be added to him. I do not think that he showed very much enthusiasm. He made three main points. The first was on the question of efficiency. During all these nationalisation Debates we have had Ministers and hon. Members opposite disparaging one industry after another. In the case of gas, that is the most unjustifiable of all. The Minister used the word "antiquated" with regard to this industry. That cannot be true.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I referred to the antiquated structure of the industry.
  Mr. Roberts: When the Minister reads HANSARD I think he will see that the impression was that the industry and the way it was working were antiquated. I go even further. The hon. Member for The Wrekin said that it was inefficient. The Heyworth Report does not say that the industry is inefficient. In point of fact, our engineering trades are conducting a great export drive on gas holders, gas engine equipment and mains. It is deplorable that Members of the Government should come down to the House and try to write down the industries which they are trying to nationalise. We had that in the case of coal and electricity. I hope we shall not have it in the case of gas.
  Mr. I. O. Thomas: On the question of efficiency, has the hon. Member read the two sub-paragraphs of Paragraph 227 in the Heyworth Report? They ought to be read in conjunction. It is essential that attention should be called to the two main points which emerge:

  "(1) that within the limits of the existing structure the industry today is reasonably efficient, and

  (2) that the existing structure is restrictive of further progress. In other words…"

  Mr. Speaker: One cannot make two speeches in the Debate.
  Mr. Roberts: I was coming to the point mentioned by the hon. Member. This deals with reorganisation, which we all agree is necessary.
  Mr. I. O. Thomas: Read it.
  Mr. Roberts: I have read it. There is no point in reading again a point upon which we are all agreed. I am dealing with the question of inefficiency. We are agreed that reorganisation and larger units are necessary. That does not mean that we must have nationalisation. That is no justification for this Bill as such. It is no claim for the principle of nationalisation. The second point made by the Minister was that the existing legislation was restrictive. We agree, but that is no point for nationalisation either. That can be remedied in other ways, as my right hon. Friend showed.
  Therefore, one had to wait for the third point of the Minister before we really got down to the fundamental question, "Why nationalise gas now with all our various troubles and difficulties?" All the Minister said with regard to centralisation under public ownership was that the alternative is the old slow pace. That was the only constructive suggestion he made. Is that an argument why we should have the principle of nationalisation applied to the gas industry? There are alternatives. My right hon. Friend mentioned them. To come down with only weak flicker of enthusiasm in his eye, and to say that we should nationalise the gas industry because there is no other alternative, is not a sufficient argument for the Minister to put before the House. I have listened most carefully to all the speeches from the other side of the House—all but one, and I had a report on that—and in listening I asked myself this question: why bring in the principle of

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  gas nationalisation now? Not one of the speeches gave any real answer, and the majority of them did not even try to answer it. It is not only a question of trying to convince me; it is public opinion outside that has to be satisfied.
  The Leader of the House has said that the nationalisers must prove their case, it seems to me a very weak argument to say, "Nobody will believe us so why should we try?" I listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies). He made certain points which seemed to be Committee stage points, but he did not touch on the principle of the Bill. The hon. Member for Yardley (Mr. Perrins), to prove his case for nationalisation, said we must have integration in the industry. That is no argument for nationalisation, and was but repeating the second point that the Minister made. So we come to the end of this first day of the Debate without having any really constructive argument put up for nationalisation. I am sorry that one hon. Member opposite, the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker), has not spoken, because he, at least, has tried to prove the case in a publication called "Labour Marches On." It would have been better called "Labour Staggers On."
  Mr. Bracken: Staggers backwards.
  Mr. Roberts: He refers to the basic industries, and to taking them over by nationalisation, and says:
  "Their ownership by the Government will, therefore, give very wide powers over the whole industrial life of the nation."
  I believe that is the fundamental reason for this nationalisation. If it is, let us hear that it is. Let it be made quite clear that the reason for bringing in gas nationalisation now is the establishment of Socialist control over the industrial life of the nation. If it is so, I shall oppose it to the very limit of my power. I am quite certain that we on this side of the House are not going to see the object of the Socialist Party of bringing in their Socialist control over the life of this country brought in in this guise.
  An argument that we on this side of the House have been trying throughout this Debate to make is that about competition. I think it is accepted—it was certainly accepted in the Heyworth Report—that to get efficiency it is necessary that we
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  should have competition. The hon. Member for West Harrow (Mr. Bower) made a very good point on that, and quoted paragraph 277 of the Report. It must be remembered that, despite the records of the past, despite the rise of 150 per cent. in the price of coal over the last 10 years, certain gas companies have reduced their prices by 16 per cent.
  Here, I must take up a remark which the Minister made, in an interruption, about the price of electricity. It seems quite clear that the Government, because they are to take over electricity in the near future, and realising that their control is over-centralised, and because the troubles they are having in the coal industry are forcing up the price of electricity, are making a definite propaganda campaign to make it seem that the price of electricity is going up now under private enterprise. That must be very carefully watched. The Minister came to my home town, Sheffield, the other day and quite startled some of his own Socialist supporters by making the unguarded statement that under public enterprise prices have to go up considerably. Moreover, we have had the recent report from Lord Citrine. It is clear that, whatever the Government may say, we cannot accept the contention that the rise in the price of electricity is not coincidental with their nationalisation plans. As to competition, we have to think in practical terms of what that means. The Heyworth Committee and consumers generally look to competition as a safeguard of their interests.
  In the last year there has been the example of what is happening with regard to the supply of coal to the gas industry itself. I can quote one instance, not of a few tons but thousands of tons a month, of coal supplied to coke ovens making gas. In the last year, the amount of dirt in that coal has increased from something like 10 per cent. to 18 per cent., which is the latest figure. Complaints are made, but they have no effect: the muck is still being put in with the coal. The amount of moisture has risen from 9 per cent. to 15 per cent. in thousands of tons per month, making an enormous quantity of extra dead weight which has to be carted about and put into coke ovens, and from there to blast furnaces. Representations have no effect; the muck still comes along. If that is happening at

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  the present moment, how much worse will it be when there is no competition?
  The Minister says the safeguard for the consumer is the consumers' council. I cannot think the Minister really means that, for his past experience cannot lead him so to believe. The hon. Member for Enfield made a very good point when he said that practically a whole year went by before consumers' councils were set up for the coal industry. That is the amount of weight the Minister attaches to them. Consumers cannot look to the consumers' councils, as such, to safeguard their interests.
  The third point made on this side of the House was in regard to municipalities. We had a very interesting speech from the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. Bennett) pointing out the position of Birmingham. These municipalities are losing control over their undertakings; and with the large areas which are envisaged it is not likely that they will get very much control on the Area Board. Again, let me give an example of what happened in Sheffield in regard to electricity. That is a city of over half a million people, with a great municipal electricity undertaking. Yet they have no representation on the Area Board at all at present. I do not know whether they are to have any. Even if there is one representative—for I hope we shall get at least one—it will only be one in 30. It is no substitute for a great municipal undertaking, which appreciates the local conditions, to have one representative on a large Area Board.
  I have not time to develop points which have been hammered home from this side of the House with regard to profit sharing and labour relations. The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) and the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Amory) both dealt with those aspects extremely well. Also, there is no need for me to repeat the arguments put forward with regard to capital structure and compensation. However, there is a point which I must put to the Minister, and which we shall have an opportunity of discussing further on the Financial Resolution. One of his arguments this afternoon seems to have been that there must be nationalisation in order to build up the capital structure of the industry. If that is so, how does he reconcile that with the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on capital expenditure? It is no good coming to
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  the House at this stage and saying that there must be nationalisation in order to pull down small, inefficient coke ovens and gasworks, and to build new coke ovens and gasholders, and new ammonia scrubbing plant and gas mains all over the country, when there is not the steel or other material, or even the willingness of the Government, to start it. That is no argument for nationalisation at this time.
  In the six minutes left to me, I make this belated plea to the Minister. Even if he turns a deaf ear to it, I hope it will be appreciated in the country. An ordinary prudent business man who makes an experiment studies its working. The nationalisation of coal was an experiment, whether we agree with it or not, and one would have thought that the Minister would have studied how it went to see what mistakes were made. Lord Hyndley has admitted in the Press that mistakes are being made; and those of us who have knowledge of the industry know that mistakes are being made. One would have thought the Government would want to see how that experiment worked out in order to be able to formulate later plans. But no; they rush on and nationalise transport and electricity, and now gas, before they can really use to good effect the knowledge they have gained. That does not seem to me to be a reasonable, practical or businesslike way of doing things.
  Despite what the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. E. Porter) said about other industries, the facts are against the Minister. France has had the most recent experience of nationalising coal. They are expecting to lose about £33 million this year, and I suppose that we shall be lucky if we lose only £10 million. They have also nationalised gas in France, and from January, 1947, to January, 1948, the price of gas has gone up from six francs per cubic metre to ten francs, but even so, they are likely to make a loss of £30 million, together with the electricity industry. That is very close to our shores, and it is an example which the Minister might watch. I ask him most seriously to consider whether he is really wise in rushing on with gas nationalisation at this time, with these examples before him.
  It has been said that we on this side do not put forward constructive proposals, but on this occasion my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth has put forward a constructive proposal in his

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  speech, and my hon. Friend the Member for Bath has also put forward constructive proposals, all of which are designed to give the Minister what he wants in efficiency, and the elimination of unnecessary legislation. The only issues between us are public ownership, centralisation, and the cutting out of competition. I should have thought that the question of co-ordination was not so much between industries, as between the various Ministerial Departments. It is there that co-ordination is necessary. It is no good the Minister of Works and the Minister of Health planning houses with open grates and various fuel-burning appliances, while the Minister of Fuel and Power is, on the other hand, saying that we must have co-ordination of fuel measures. The whole job of the Government is to co-ordinate the various Government Departments, and not to go down to industry to say where a gas main shall be laid, or where coal shall be sent.
  It seems to me that no argument has been put forward by the Government in support of this Measure. I reiterate that we are as anxious as the Government to help the consumers to get as efficient a service as possible, and also to help in the efficiency of the industry, but we are fully convinced that that can best be done through competition. We are equally convinced that the organisation under the Minister of Fuel and Power, with all the various Ministerial devices and departments, will not bring that competition about, and that in the long run it is bound to increase the price of the commodity they are selling.
  I will quote only one example, and that is in the case of coal. In the Yorkshire area, we have had an increase in the price of coal in the last year, but how much of that increase has gone to the miners? The consumer pays on the one hand, but what about the miner? In the Yorkshire area, only 30 per cent. of the increase has gone to the miner, and over 60 per cent. has gone in increased maintenance and administration charges. The figures can be checked up, as they were issued for the third quarter of last year and are comparable with the average of the year 1946, allowance being made for the difference in disposable and saleable coal, but the
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  general picture is the same. It seems to me indisputable that no proper case has been made out for the consumer, for the worker in the industry, or on this question of competition, as to why we should nationalise this industry at this time. The Government will get support from this side of the House for any reasonable proposals which they can prove will be helpful to the efficiency of the industry, but this Bill they are putting forward is not what we consider to be in the national interest.
  Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Snow.]
  Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Caterham and Warlingham, a copy of which Order was presented on 6th February, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Haverhill, a copy of which Order was presented on 6th February, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Mablethorpe and Sutton, a copy of which Order was presented on 6th February, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of St. Neots, a copy of which Order was presented on 6th February, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Witham, a copy of which Order was presented on 6th February, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Wenlock, a copy of which Order was presented on 6th February, be approved."—[Mr. Younger.]

  BASIC PETROL RATION
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Snow.]
  10.2 p.m.
  Mr. Shurmer: In a recent speech my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that to talk of a restoration of the basic petrol ration showed complete failure to understand the gravity of the circumstances of today. I cannot agree. I believe that there are methods of petrol rationing which could take the place of the present abolition of the ration, and I would like to know whether the alternative plans put forward by the motoring organisations have been fully considered?
  Before I go any further I would like to quote an example of what the abolition of the basic petrol ration means, and what results from this abolition. Two people went away on a holiday; instead of going by car they had to go by train. The train was absolutely packed, because motoring was prohibited, and many passengers were left behind as no more could be squeezed into the corridors. Here are the astonishing figures showing what the cost of their holiday in petrol and money was to these two people: Taxi to the station, a double journey, one gallon of petrol, 15s.; rail journey £2 18s. 10d.; taxi to holiday destination, a double journey, one and a half gallons of petrol and £2; taxi from holiday destination back to station, a double journey, one and a half gallons of petrol and £2; taxi from station to home, one gallon of petrol and £1. Total cost, five gallons of petrol and £8 13s. 10d. If the return journey had been done in a small car from door to door, as it could have been done on the basic petrol ration, the cost would have been five gallons of petrol plus a little oil, price 13s. 10d. Think of what that means to many working men during the coming summer months.
  I have no desire to embarrass the Government, because I am well aware of the extreme difficulties they are facing today, but I feel compelled to ask the Minister for an early announcement about a return of the basic petrol ration. Is there to be any petrol this Easter? It has been said that the position cannot be reviewed until June. What will this mean? It will
  336
  mean that many people will be left in doubt about their holidays unless there is an early statement from the Government. Despite the fact that the public have been urged to stagger their holidays from May onwards, many car owners will hold back in the hope of getting some petrol, which will mean that holiday resorts will be crowded out at the peak period. That, in turn, will mean that people will be unable to find accommodation. Holidays with pay are now in operation on a large scale; 33,000,000 men, women and children are entitled to a holiday. Can the railways cope with that position? Certainly not.
  We all know what happened last year, and without petrol this year there will be a mad scramble for trains. Many people will forgo their holidays rather than travel like cattle in trucks. The effect of that will be seen in many ways. It has been estimated that last summer, when 2,000,000 motorists were on the road, the railways were relieved of some six or seven million people. It has been said that the abolition of basic petrol is class legislation. I know that is not true. Many thousands of wage-earners are owners of cars today. They depend on their cars to take them and their families on holidays, for, without them, they probably could not afford the railway fares. Let the Minister think also of the depreciation of these cars, and the loss which that will mean to working men if they have to lay them up for any time.
  Another aspect of this matter is the small garages on the highways and byways, many of them owned by ex-Service men who have sunk their gratuities and savings in these businesses, and who are dependent on the Passing motorist in the summer time for a living. Will they have to close down. The abolition of basic petrol will mean ruin to many of them. I say, without fear of contradiction, that 90 per cent. of the letters which I receive on this subject are from workmen in the lower income groups and their wives, who say, "We support the Government and will do all we can to help in the production drive, but we think that we should be given the use of our cars to enjoy the countryside in the summer months."
  Recently, the Minister, in answer to a Question, said that there was no sign of loss of incentive due to the withdrawal of

  337
  basic petrol. That may be true, but I am afraid that it will be a different story this summer if the workers are forced to forgo their holidays and, at the same time, see their cars laid up in garages. I appeal to the Minister to make an early statement. Cars which have been laid up will need to be overhauled before going on the roads. If we have an allowance of petrol this year, and a late announcement is made about it, that will mean that garages will be unable to cope with all the repairs, and there will be many accidents on the roads. Cannot we have some official softening of heart on this question? The Automobile Association in their submissions to the Government for the restoration of basic petrol have pointed out where saving of petrol can be made and how to defeat the black market, so I will not go into those matters now.
  The Prime Minister in a broadcast on Friday night last said that the hope of economic salvation lay not in the hands of the Government but in the hands of the ordinary people. I agree. All I can say now is: Give these ordinary people the petrol to enable them to enjoy the countryside and take the holidays which will refresh them for another year's hard drive towards prosperity. In conclusion, may I be allowed to make one joke? The basic talk of England today is what is meant by the fruits of victory. "No basic" is the apple of discord. The grapes of wrath are being squeezed like an orange. Finding the answer is "a lemon," (we finally get the pip.
  10.9 p.m.
  Brigadier Peto: On Thursday last I asked the Minister of Fuel and Power the following Question:
  "whether an allowance of petrol coupons will be made available during this year to those who wish to travel by car in this country for their annual holiday."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th Feb., 1948; Vol. 446, col. 1888.]
  He replied to this and similar questions by saying that he could see no reasonable prospects of making any alteration by way of permitting the restoration of the petrol allowance for holiday motoring, private yachts and other non-essential purposes. After some pressure by hon. Members in different parts of the House he somewhat reluctantly agreed to review the position not in June, but by the end of March. I am sure everybody in the House and
  338
  throughout the country will be duly gratified that he will give us this information by the end of March rather than leave it so late as June.
  I am going to spend the two or three minutes in which I shall detain the House on commenting on his reply mainly from the point of view of a constituency in which there are many seaside resorts. First, I cannot for the life of me understand why he brackets those who wish to take their annual holiday by using their motor cars in order to convey their families to some seaside places with those who wish to go in motor yachts. To my mind the two things are totally different.
  Perhaps the Minister would answer three questions. First, are holidays essential? If we are trying to increase our production I should say the answer is definitely in the affirmative. No man or woman can give of his or her best unless each has a period of holiday. The second question is—are there not a great many people like those in the Division of the hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) who can only afford to take their annual holiday with their family if they can travel by car, because they cannot afford the high cost of railway fares when they have children and the various impedimenta which go with children. They can afford to take a small car a long distance, and spend the rest of their money on their annual holiday in the seaside resort which is their destination.
  Thirdly, are there not thousands and thousands of people who earn their livelihood and are dependent entirely on tourist and holiday traffic throughout England in the summer months? The hon. Member for Sparkbrook mentioned various categories into which these people fall. I will not reiterate them except to say that he did not exhaust the number when he mentioned those who keep petrol pumps and garages and the employees of them. He did not mention some such people as those who make their living out of hiring fishing and other boats, those who keep lodgings, and those who keep cafes and little restaurants, all of whom are entirely dependent in the summer months on the tourist and holiday traffic.
  The Government have lifted the ban on foreign travel. Speaking now entirely from the English holiday resort point of view, it is the grossest injustice to our

  339
  holiday resorts if no restoration of petrol is made in this country. There is one other aspect, that of the rates. A little seaside town in my own constituency, known probably to many hon. Members, called Lynton, is 20 miles from the nearest railway station, and it makes from car parking a sum equivalent to a 7d. or 8d. rate. It derives this money from controlling the car parks in the urban district. If there were no car parking it would mean an added burden on the ratepayers of 7d. or 8d., in addition to their loss of income from tourist traffic.
  I fully realise the gravity of the present situation, I realise that every economy has to be made, and I realise, too, that if it were left to the Minister and his own sweet will he would probably be only too pleased to restore some basic ration, but I urge upon the Government that it is absolutely essential to give some basic petrol for holiday-makers this summer. They should not confine their economies to the detriment of our holiday resorts but should think of saving a similar number of dollars by some other means. The only controversial thing I shall say tonight is that in the past this Government were not careful how they spent our money and were not over-careful how they wasted the dollars. For example, there are the imports of entirely non-essential luxuries up to the value of £7,136,000—on such things as pears, grape-fruits, chewing gum and so on—which sum if it had been saved, would have given us the basic petrol for this season.
  10.18 p.m.
  Mrs. Leah Manning: In the four months since we lost the basic petrol, the Government say that they have saved something like £10 million. Everybody will agree that there are two sides to every balance account, and those of us who are in close touch with our constituencies can tell the Government not only what they have saved but what they have lost as well. It is outstanding that the Government have lost an enormous amount of goodwill and they have, moreover, lost a great deal of the vitality of those who work in the important industries and services of the country.
  My division of Epping is a typical example, not in relation to holidays, but to ordinary humdrum life, of how people suffer. Since a few years before the war,
  340
  750,000 people have moved from the centre of London, not to the suburbs but to the rural fringe 10 to 25 miles out of London. It is safe to say that these people would not have gone out there, had they not been able to take their transport with them. Ordinary public transport was never designed, never planned and never intended for this vast army of immigrants, and these people are suffering as a result today. During the war they did not notice it because they laid up their cars or sold them, but when men came back from the war, they spent their gratuities on motor cycles or little old battered second-hand "eights" and tried to resume the pleasant pattern of their life in prewar days—the ride to the station in the morning or up to business and back at night, the visits to the cinema in the next town, or taking out the children on Sundays. Some of the most moving letters I have had are from people who have been used to taking the mother and the children to see the grandparents. The loss of solace to old people is enormous through their not being able to see their sons and daughters.
  The struggle today to get to business is absolutely impossible. I have mentioned the chaos on the Central Line, which is supposed to serve the Epping division. There is a fight to get to business every morning and a fight to get back home; when people get home they feel penned in because there is nowhere they can go; they are not even able to use their car to take a piece of apparatus or scenery down to the club. They are stuck there. What was to have been a happy, healthful sort of existence now seems to the people who have gone to the villages a kind of prison life. If that does not mean loss of good will and vitality, I do not know what it does mean.
  I hope the Minister can give us a word of comfort tonight. I want to ask him two or three questions because most of us hope that he will give back some basic petrol—not very much—but we do not want the position to arise all over again in which people said, "If you will give me a gallon and a half, I can fiddle the rest." Too many honest, law-abiding, peaceful citizens in this country are at the mercy of the racketeers and black marketeers, and I want to know what the Minister is doing to meet that situation. Those of us on this side who have been interested in motoring associations have

  341
  asked him to deal with this. Is he going to do anything about colouring commercial and other petrol? Is he going to do anything about asking people to register with one dealer? Is he considering putting petrol on personal points and letting people have tobacco or petrol? Has he any plans of that kind? Above all, what is happening about tankers? We are told that in the Middle East they are pouring petrol back into the wells. Are we getting any tankers from America and, if so, shall we he able to use those tankers to bring oil from the Middle East? Those questions people are asking every day, and I hope the Minister will answer those questions tonight.
  10.22 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): The hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) has raised a matter of considerable public importance and if, as a result of this, I am able to clear some of the issues involved, I shall be grateful to him for giving me this opportunity. He asked one or two questions particularly with reference to the motoring associations and the black market, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning). The House will be aware that my right hon. Friend has set up a special committee to investigate the problem of the black market. That committee is sitting and, in due course, will present its report to my right hon. Friend. When he receives that report, he will be able to examine the situation and arrive at some definite conclusion.
  Mr. Lipson: How soon will it be published?
  Mr. Robens: If the hon. Member will leave that for a moment, I think I shall be able to satisfy him. I have considerable sympathy with the hon. and gallant Member for Barnstaple (Brigadier Peto), who put his case very reasonably. I know his area well, and can well understand the many difficulties and complaints he will receive from his constituents who largely depend upon the holiday traffic, which is predominantly a car-touring one.
  The Government and my right hon. Friend are fully aware of all the considerations that have been raised in this short Debate; indeed, my right hon. Friend would be relieved of a severe headache if it were possible for him to
  342
  restore basic petrol. It is not that he does not desire motorists to be able to use their cars as they please; it is the sheer inability of this country to spend what few dollars she has on anything but the real necessities of life for the mass of the people who make up this nation. It is a choice that has to be made, and although it is a disagreeable decision that we have to impose this restriction, as any restriction, yet no Government and no Minister would be worth their salt if they failed to carry out a disagreeable decision for the sake of cheap popularity.
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: Then why was the basic ration increased last year?
  Mr. Robens: I could deal with that, but it would only take up time. [Laughter.] What are the facts which the right hon. Gentleman finds so amusing? I should have thought they were well known, especially to the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken). There is a grave shortage of dollars, and the gold reserve of this country is running out. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] If that is something to smile at, I am perfectly certain no hon. Member on this side finds it a humorous matter. Until that position is eased, it is clear that our stock of dollar's must be watched carefully, savings must be accomplished wherever we can do so, and spendings in dollars have also to be carefully watched. Failure to do this will bring grave hardship upon the whole population of this country. Let me emphasise that. It is not the lack of desire on the part of the Government, but the general economic situation.
  The Automobile Association and the Royal Automobile Club have circulated their members asking them to bombard Members of Parliament on this issue of basic petrol. My right hon. Friend and myself, being members of the A.A., have received a circular, the same as other members. We do not take their advice. I say to those organisations that they are wasting time, labour, money and materials in such useless propaganda, and the members of the public who take the very ill advice of those organisations are wasting their time and their money in so doing. Members of Parliament, who very naturally pass on any letters they receive to my right hon. Friend and myself, are

  343
  merely making an additional administrative burden without achieving any single useful object whatever. Hon. Members cannot expect us to deal with the flood of letters which may result from an ill-advised appeal like that. This is not a matter on which the pressure of public opinion can change the issue. Indeed, pressure of public opinion is absolutely unnecessary, because as soon as it is possible to provide basic petrol my right hon. Friend will provide it.
  What has been the effect on dollar saving up to the present time? In December we were saving at the rate of 264 million gallons, which is 880,000 tons a year.
  Mr. Bracken: What is that in dollars?
  Mr. Robens: It is the equivalent of £10 million sterling. If the right hon. Gentleman cares to work it out at a little more than four dollars to the £, he will see what it is. I am not able to give the actual figures for January, but what returns have reached us enable me to tell the House that the January savings will have maintained the December savings; indeed, the figures may prove to be even better. Last Thursday my right hon. Friend stated, in reply to a supplementary question by my hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook, that he appreciated the need for an early statement on the question of basic petrol during the summer holidays, and in reply to a later supplementary question he said that he hoped to review the matter at the end of March.
  Mr. Bracken: What did the Chancellor of the Exchequer say last Sunday?
  Mr. Robens: It is reasonable that a statement should be made to put an end to uncertainty and to enable people intending to take their holidays to make adequate arrangements.
  Mr. Bracken: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Robens: I cannot at this stage say what that statement will contain. We do not know what the economic state of the country will be. [Laughter.] It is curious
  344
  how that amuses hon. Members. They must not read into those words that the motoring public can rely upon a basic petrol allowance this year. The situation is gloomy, to say the least, and so far as the direct question of Easter holidays is concerned, there is no possibility at all of basic petrol for Easter.
  My hon. Friend specifically referred to the need for holiday transport and we are all one with him in wishing to ensure that the workers in industry and elsewhere should have reasonable and comfortable travelling facilities. As a consequence my right hon. Friend, in an endeavour to improve the situation in regard to travel by rail, is increasing the amount of coal to be allocated to the railways this summer by 250,000 tons. That is as far as my Department can go. We are not responsible for the transport facilities that can be made available as a result of that increased allocation. I have been in communication with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. I have no doubt he will be giving to the House quite soon some indication as to what effect that extra coal allocation will have in improving transport by rail.
  I am sorry that I have not been able to announce any concessions, and have only been able to present perhaps a dismal picture. No one would be more pleased than my right hon. Friend and myself if it could have been otherwise. The facts are that Britain is fighting desperately against great economic odds. Dollars must be saved and the abolition of basic petrol is an important factor. We have done everything administratively possible to provide petrol for business, professional, commercial and compassionate use. In the choice between food for the people and motoring for pleasure and convenience, we should be failing in our duty if we did not put food for the people first.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

BRITISH ARMY
  Military Hospital, Hamburg
  Military Hospital, Hamburg
  Fuses (Deep Sea Dumping)
  Fuses (Deep Sea Dumping)
PRISONERS OF WAR
  German Personnel, Singapore
  German Personnel, Singapore
  Civilian Workers
  Civilian Workers
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Colonial Commodities (Dollar Loss)
  Colonial Commodities (Dollar Loss)
  Revenue and Expenditure Returns, Scotland
  Revenue and Expenditure Returns, Scotland
  Wages and Salaries
  Wages and Salaries
  American Films
  American Films
  American Industrial Investment
  American Industrial Investment
  British Transport Stock, 1978–88
  British Transport Stock, 1978–88
  Statutory Rules and Orders, 1947
  Statutory Rules and Orders, 1947
  Overseas Investments (Income)
  Overseas Investments (Income)
  Taxation (Allowances)
  Taxation (Allowances)
  Income and Expenditure
  Income and Expenditure
  STEEL ALLOCATIONS
  STEEL ALLOCATIONS
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Timber Supplies
  Timber Supplies
  Pottery Supplies, Braintree
  Pottery Supplies, Braintree
  Furniture Imports
  Furniture Imports
  Cloth (Demobilisation Suits)
  Cloth (Demobilisation Suits)
  Anglo-Argentine Negotiations
  Anglo-Argentine Negotiations
  Consumption Goods Home Market)
  Consumption Goods Home Market)
  Infants' Wear (Inquiry)
  Infants' Wear (Inquiry)
  Textile Machinery
  Textile Machinery
  Hand Knitting Yarn
  Hand Knitting Yarn
  Hotel Accommodation, Aberdeen
  Hotel Accommodation, Aberdeen
  Special Shoes
  Special Shoes
  Books (Paper Allocation)
  Books (Paper Allocation)
  Grey Lisle Stockings
  Grey Lisle Stockings
  Footwear (Import Duty, Drawback)
  Footwear (Import Duty, Drawback)
  Weights and Measures (Legislation)
  Weights and Measures (Legislation)
  Women's Clothing (Export)
  Women's Clothing (Export)
  Towels (Hairdressers)
  Towels (Hairdressers)
  War Damage Claim
  War Damage Claim
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (RETIREMENT PENSIONS)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (RETIREMENT PENSIONS)
EMPLOYMENT
  Cotton Industry (Output)
  Cotton Industry (Output)
  Weekly Half-Holidays
  Weekly Half-Holidays
  Textile Machinery Makers, Oldham and Barton
  Textile Machinery Makers, Oldham and Barton
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Foreign Workers
  Foreign Workers
  Street Traders (Registration)
  Street Traders (Registration)
  Airdrie and Shotts
  Airdrie and Shotts
  Unemployed Farm Workers
  Unemployed Farm Workers
  Ramsgate, Margate and Sandwich
  Ramsgate, Margate and Sandwich
  Unemployment Figures (Publication)
  Unemployment Figures (Publication)
  Vacancies (Inexperienced Workers)
  Vacancies (Inexperienced Workers)
  Unemployed Clerks
  Unemployed Clerks
  Joint Production Committees
  Joint Production Committees
  Prisoners of War
  Prisoners of War
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Rubber Working Machinery
  Rubber Working Machinery
  Electric Light Bulbs
  Electric Light Bulbs
  Aeronautical Research Station, Bedfordshire
  Aeronautical Research Station, Bedfordshire
  Taxicabs (Production)
  Taxicabs (Production)
  Cotton Carding Engines (Production)
  Cotton Carding Engines (Production)
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Hospitals (Unexpired Deeds of Covenant)
  Hospitals (Unexpired Deeds of Covenant)
  Health Centres
  Health Centres
  COAST PROTECTION (GRANTS)
  COAST PROTECTION (GRANTS)
FUEL AND POWER
  Petrol Economy
  Petrol Economy
  Electrical Supply Industries (Materials)
  Electrical Supply Industries (Materials)
  HOUSING (SUBSIDIES)
  HOUSING (SUBSIDIES)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Steel (Licences)
  Steel (Licences)
  Surplus Canteen Equipment
  Surplus Canteen Equipment
  RAIL AND ROAD VEHICLES (BLINDS)
  RAIL AND ROAD VEHICLES (BLINDS)
  POLES, UNITED KINGDOM (DEPENDANTS)
  POLES, UNITED KINGDOM (DEPENDANTS)
SCOTLAND
  Industrial Development (Hydro-Electric Power)
  Industrial Development (Hydro-Electric Power)
  Scottish Affairs (Films)
  Scottish Affairs (Films)
  EDUCATION (TEMPORARY TEACHERS)
  EDUCATION (TEMPORARY TEACHERS)
  AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTION (GRASSLAND)
  AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTION (GRASSLAND)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  TRIBUTES TO THE LATE EARL OF DERBY.
  2.35 p.m.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I am sure it is in accord with the wishes of the whole House that at the opening of our proceedings to-day we should pay a tribute to the late Earl of Derby. He was an illustrious member of this; House. We know that he was at one time, and at a very difficult time, one of our most successful Ambassadors. On two occasions, also, he held the office of Secretary of State for War. Though he was born in affluence, he recognized—as we all know—that his great privileges involved great responsibilities. He never shirked the duties and self-sacrifices which his high position involved and it is fair to say of him that he was, above all, a servant of his country. Your Lordships will have seen from the Press notices something of the immense variety of his interests. I will not attempt to recapitulate them; their extent is well known to your Lordships. Both in national affairs and in local affairs he was always active. I myself am quite unable to assess, or even to express an appreciation of, the great influence which he exercised in the field of sport. I do know, however, as we all know, that here again he recognized the responsibility of his position. He devoted his knowledge and opportunities to the improvement of British livestock.
  I knew him—and it is natural that one should think of him in that way—because for about a year during the First World War, I was Minister of Munitions while he was Secretary of State for War. Our conferences were held almost daily. It was then that I came to know at first-hand, and to appreciate, his shrewd penetration, his downrightness, his scorn of every from of pretence and, above all, his real friendliness. He was a colleague with whom it was a joy to work. I cannot
  904
  recall any occasion when an arrangement made with Lord Derby was not sustained with a rocklike steadfastness. He was, moreover, extraordinarily approachable to the whole of his staff. His kindliness and his sense of humour were appreciated throughout the whole of that great Department. To many people, and certainly in the North of England, he was best known and best remembered as a great son of Lancashire. There seems to have been scarcely any considerable public activity in that county, from the Lord Mayoralty of Liverpool to the directorship of all manner of concerns, in which he did not engage. One thing is quite evident, that throughout that great county, which is highly critical of persons, he gained to an unusual degree the confidence and affection of people of all grades. I surmise that in that part of England that degree of affection and complete trust is not easy to obtain, but Lord Derby attained it in a remarkable degree.
  Above all, he impressed those of us who knew him as a great Englishman; he was characteristically English, without any sort of pretence. He was possessed of stalwart common sense. He invariably displayed that appreciation of the point of view of the other man which has made Englishmen so powerful in the world. He was always very fair in his judgments. I think it is a true summary to say that in his life and in his personal character he embodied those qualities of the British people—particularly, if I may I say so in an insular sense, of the English people—which have made them so trusted from one end of the world to the other. He was a great nobleman who entertained kings and princes with the same ease and happiness as that with which he entertained ordinary people. He worked with them and talked with them, always with a friendly ease and without any trace of affectation. In a very exceptional degree Lord Derby combined those qualities of our race which have made us great in the world. At all times, with whomsoever he was mixing, he showed by his action and his conduct that he realized and recognised that we are all members of the community, one with another.
  2.39 p.m.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in the eloquent and charming tribute which the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, has just paid to the late

  905
  Earl of Derby, whose death we mourn to-day, he referred to Lord Derby's great public services in politics and outside. As your Lordships know, those services were indeed outstanding. Lord Derby served his country with distinction in many capacities and he was universally regarded, both here and abroad, as an example of the finest type of Englishman. However, I should like, if I may, to add one word of a more personal character. For some months during the First World War, when he was at the War Office, it was my good fortune to work under him as his Private Secretary, and I came to know him well, as a Private Secretary inevitably gets to know his chief. The two things that most struck me about him were his inflexible sense of public duty and, even more, his overflowing kindness of heart. That is, I think, a rather unusual combination of qualities. Too often a stern sense of duty leads to an impatience and intolerance of the weaknesses of others. That was never so with Lord Derby. He really loved his fellow men and he was genuinely delighted to be with them.
  As the Leader of the House has said, Lord Derby was shrewd, yet bubbling over with kindliness. Generous and open-hearted, he spread an atmosphere of happiness wherever he went. One felt his presence like a benediction. This, I think, was the underlying secret of the immense influence which he held in this country in politics, in Paris as Ambassador, in his private life and, above all, among the people of his native county of Lancashire. They loved him because he loved them. They knew he would never let them down, and he never did. Even in the last years of his life, when he was old, crippled with illness and broken with family sorrow, he would go out attending functions, day after day, almost to the day of his death, not because it was his duty but because it was a genuine delight to him to be with his friends and neighbours. He inherited a great position and, by his own personality, he made it a greater one. My Lords, he is dead, but his memory lives after him. He was a fine and good man, and none of us who had the privilege of knowing him will ever forget him. Our deepest sympathy, I know, goes out to Lady Derby, to whom he owed so much, and to his family in their grievous sorrow.
  2.43 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, my noble friends on these Benches would desire to join in the tributes so finely paid to Lord Derby by the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition. They have spoken of the variety of his interests, his devotion to the public service, and his character, so fully representative of the best national qualities. One of those characteristics was his adaptability, his capacity to conform to the changing circumstances of the time in order to fulfil public duty. Many of the old landed families of this country, as power has passed to the people, have not remained aloof, remote and resentful, and therefore useless, as is so often found on the Continent. The medieval castle gave place to the great mansion, and that now may be obsolescent. The duty of leadership, however, the sense of obligation, made many among them change the manner but not the purpose of their activities. They have taken a part in both Houses of the Legislature, in the councils of our cities and our counties, and a full part in the general life of the people, which gives the greatest scope of all.
  In all this Lord Derby was typical and he excelled. The genealogies reveal that the family of Stanleys and their name has endured for a thousand years and more, far back into Saxon times. Many of Lord Derby's forebears held leading places in peace and war all through the centuries. A distinguished American Ambassador, Walter Hines Page, an acute observer, wrote:
  "Good family stocks, kept good through centuries—that is the trick that has made English history."
  Whatever changes may come about in our formal political Constitution, such influences as those will still prevail, and examples such as Lord Derby gave throughout his life will be cherished, will be followed, and will endure.
  2.45 p.m.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I will not try to add to the tributes that have already been paid to Lord Derby, but I wish in the briefest of words to associate myself with them for two reasons in particular. One reason is that for seven years I was Bishop of Chester, and there I had full opportunity of seeing the astonishing depth

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  and range of Lord Derby's influence in the north. I admit that Cheshire is not Lancashire, but we were by no means excluded from the large heart and the deep interests of Lord Derby. In Cheshire, as in Lancashire, we looked to him—and never in vain—for help and encouragement in every form of enterprise for the public good. The other reason which I would mention in a sentence, is that, as a faithful member of the Church of England, he never failed to give every kind of help, support and encouragement to those engaged in the work of the Church in his own county of Lancashire and in Cheshire. He was a great Christian gentleman. He was rich in talents, but he used those talents not only for himself but for the public good, for his Church and for his country. He was indeed, in the truest sense, a man of charity and of generous heart.
  VISCOUNT LEVERHULME: My Lords, as one having very close ties with Merseyside, for my home has been there all my life, I would like to add a few brief words to the eloquent tributes which have been paid to Lord Derby. I feel that the whole of that neighbourhood, which, so to speak, was on Lord Derby's doorstep, owes him much for the untiring public service which he rendered to it. Merseyside includes not only the great city of Liverpool, which Lord Derby served for one year in the office of Lord Mayor and of whose University he was, for many years, the much-loved Chancellor, but also all the towns on: he Lancashire side of the river and the towns or boroughs of Birkenhead, Wallasey and Bebington on the Cheshire side. Lord Derby was always ready to cross the river into Cheshire to help in any good cause where his help was needed, and to attend any event which would be furthered by his presence. All of us who belong to Merseyside mourn the passing of a great Englishman. He was the embodiment of common sense, practical wisdom, and, I venture to add, a kindly sense of humour, and Englishmen in all lands were sustained by the example which he set his fellow-countrymen. Reflecting on the influence he wielded, I think that part of his secret, at any rate, lay in his great humanity. He looked for the best in
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  others and seemed instinctively to find it. He had the happy power of bringing out that best and of winning unstinted loyalty.

MANUFACTURE OF OMNIBUSES.
2.51 p.m
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing on the Order Paper in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware that in spite of repeated representations to the appropriate authorities, no manufacturer of motor omnibuses yet knows what number of omnibuses or of omnibus chassis, for use in the United Kingdom, he is expected to manufacture during the year 1948; that materials for production of such vehicles are necessarily ordered in accordance with specifications settled at least nine months in advance; that such specifications cannot be altered at short notice, and that in default of a Government direction in this matter, manufacturers are consequently compelled, unless progressively increasing numbers of workers cease to be employed, to proceed with manufacturing programmes for 1948 on the basis of programmes approved some 9-12 months ago.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My, Lords, the reduction in the number of new omnibuses for the home market in 1948 necessarily involves a number of difficult adjustments in the manufacturing industry. Discussions have taken place with the representative associations of manufacturers and operators and the problem is being considered as a matter of urgency by my right honourable friends the Ministers of Supply and Transport. It is hoped that further discussions will take place with the associations concerned and that decisions will be reached in the very near future.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that the present allocation of steel to the heavy motor car industry is enough for only 46 per cent. of its production, that the present permitted production of heavy motor vehicles amounts to only 25 per cent. for export and 21 per cent. for the home market,

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and that any excess over that will have to be transferred to the export market? Chassis for the export market are different from those for the home market. The two cannot be interchanged. I hope that the noble Viscount will see that some definite reply is forthcoming at an early date, otherwise there will be no alternative for manufacturers but to discharge a great many hands, and even to close some works. This will have the effect of raising costs overseas and we shall lose markets.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, I can assure the noble Earl that I am fully aware of the urgency of the matter, and I have this morning been in touch with my colleagues. They appreciate how important it is to arrive at a decision, though it should be pointed out that orders already placed by operators far exceed the possible supply during the course of this year.

GENOCIDE CONVENTION.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing on the Order Paper in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government the reasons which have led them to withdraw the support for a Genocide Convention which they had previously given at the General Assembly of the United Nations on December 11, 1946, and to inquire whether the Government consider these reasons sufficient to prevent their joining with the United States and thirty-eight member nations in supporting the Convention at the meeting of the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations in February.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, there has been no fundamental change of attitude on the part of His Majesty's Government, who regard the crime of genocide with as much detestation as ever. Admittedly, their support was given in December, 1946, to the conception of an International Convention on Genocide; and a draft of such a Convention was in due course prepared by the United Nations Secretariat. A study of this draft, however, convinced His Majesty's Government that
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any such Convention would inevitably prove to be a difficult and highly controversial document, to which many Governments might be unable to adhere.
In those circumstances His Majesty's Government formed the opinion that such an abortive Convention might weaken, rather than strengthen, the principle which it set out to establish, and might throw doubt on the proposition, at present universally accepted, that genocide is an international crime. At the second session of the General Assembly last autumn, therefore, the United Kingdom delegation expressed the view that a better approach would be for the Assembly to confine itself to a resolution that genocide was a crime entailing national and international responsibilities, and to refer the question of a Convention to the International Law Commission, which is to be elected at the Assembly meeting later this year, for further study. This Commission, His Majesty's Government feel, would conduct its work on genocide in connexion with the codification of the relevant decisions of the Nuremberg tribunal, another task which it has to perform. Many problems of racial and other animosities manifested against individuals and groups, which the original draft Convention sought to cover, are in the view of His Majesty's Government more properly the concern of the Human Rights Commission which operates under the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations.
The resolution adopted by the Assembly last November recognized to some extent the merits of this approach to the matter, though admittedly it did not endorse in full the attitude of the United Kingdom delegation. That attitude will be maintained by the United Kingdom delegation to the current meeting of the Economic and Social Council, on whose agenda the crime of genocide figures.
With regard to the second part of the question, the fact that His Majesty's Government were in a minority on this question at the last Assembly meeting has not persuaded them that their view was wrong. On the contrary, they hope that it will become more widely held. An honest difference of opinion as to the best means of moving towards a goal common to all of them divided Governments on

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that occasion. The support expressed by the majority, I should point out, was in any case not for the Convention as originally drafted, but for the idea of having a comprehensive Convention. In His Majesty's Government's view, based on the deficiencies and difficulties of the first Draft Convention prepared, it is unlikely to prove possible to draft a comprehensive Convention on this subject to which the majority of Governments will be prepared to adhere.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble and learned Viscount sincerely for his full reply.

VETERINARY SURGEONS.
Lord HARLECH: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in the Order Paper in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, when the promised Bill to legalize the right to practise by graduates of universities within Great Britain obtaining a degree in a faculty of Veterinary Science will be introduced; whether this right to practise by graduates of universities named in the Second Loveday Report; and what steps the Government now propose to take to ensure for this country and the Colonial dependencies an increased supply of qualified veterinarians for teaching, research, Government administration and private practice.]
The JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE and FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON): My Lords, on April 1, 1946, in another place, my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture announced the intention of the Government to introduce as soon as possible legislation dealing with veteninary education and allied matters. The Bill will be introduced as soon as circumstances permit. Its main purpose will be to provide much greater facilities for the training of highly qualified veterinary surgeons, who would practise in this country and in the British Commonwealth. Legislation will
912
not restrict training to any specified universities.
LORD HARLECH: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for that reply, I should like to ask whether he can give any clear indication as to when we shall be able to see at any rate the first part of this legislation, which was promised more than a year ago. In view of the fact that the shortage of qualified veterinarians is getting more and more serious overseas, as well as in this country, can the noble Earl do something to expedite the empowering of further universities, other than those already having veterinary faculties, to start them?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, we are fully aware of the urgency of this problem, and every possible step is being taken to expedite the matter. We hope to introduce legislation at the earliest possible moment, but I am afraid that owing to the pressure of work I cannot indicate a definite time for its introduction.
LORD HARLECH: Can the noble Earl give any indication as to whether it will be introduced this Session, before we part in July?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: The noble Lord will be aware that we are now in the middle of a most difficult and congested programme, which is complicated by the crisis. It is not possible, therefore, for me to give a clear indication as to the time of introduction of the legislation in question.
EARL DE LA WARR: Would the noble Earl consider with the Minister whether it would be practicable for the Bill to be introduced into this House, so that it could receive at least a preliminary discussion.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: I will certainly take notice of what the noble Earl says, and will refer the matter to my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture.

SUTTON'S HOSPITAL IN CHARTER HOUSE CHARITY SCHEME CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
BOROUGH OF WENLOCK ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF CATERHAM AND WARLINGHAM ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF HAVERHILL ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF MABLETHORPE AND SUTTON ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF ST. NEOTS ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF WITHAM ORDER.
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending Section one of the Act to the said areas, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CHILDREN BILL. [H.L.]
3.11 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I am very proud of the fact that it has fallen to my lot to move this Bill. In its main outline, I believe, it will prove entirely uncontroversial—and that is a welcome change. It is quite obviously a matter which demands the support of all sections of opinion in this House and in the country. I myself have had the opportunity of seeing how much good there was in what we are doing for our children, for during the first year of the war I had the benefit of having a nursery school of forty-seven children in my own house. They were children of from two to four years of age, and I had them for some nine months; I lost them only because the position of my house after the fall of France made it impossible for us to continue the work. That experience made me realize that of all the people who deserve well of their country, and who deserve to be covered with decorations, pride of place should be given to those women who devoted themselves to the care of these small children, not only for all periods of the day but during many periods of the night, without ever complaining and without ever losing their tempers.
914
I would not like the House to think that everything is bad about this matter of the care of children. By no means. But what is true is that there are bad spots. As I see it, the problem is, how can we so arrange matters as to save those children who have not the benefit of a normal home life from suffering that disadvantage throughout their whole lives? I take the view, in common with most of your Lordships, that for a small child there is no real substitute for a happy home life. As we cannot adequately compensate the children there is all the more reason for us to do the best we can to make that handicap as small as may be. I saw the purpose of this Bill well defined the other day as "an effort to make nobody's child somebody's child." That is what I want to talk to your Lordships about. We do not claim any verbal inspiration for this Bill. It is in essence such a good Bill that we shall welcome the assistance of your Lordships from all parts of the House. We shall be only too glad to consider the various Amendments which may be put down during the Committee stage, because we know that all your Lordships will be actuated by one desire, to make this Bill as good as it possibly can be. At the end of the Second Reading debate, my noble friend Lord Morrison, who is prepared to deal more particularly with matters which concern Scotland, will deal with other general matters which arise.
I feel that it is due that some tribute should be paid to Lady Allen of Hurt-wood, who brought this matter before the public eye in the year 1944. Perhaps I may, for a moment, trespass on dangerous ground. It occurs to me that if, as a result of reforms which are now being discussed, we should at some time have ladies sitting in your Lordships' House, we might have matters of this nature brought to our notice earlier and more forcibly than was the case in regard to this particular subject. Lady Allen raised the matter in the Press and published a pamphlet calling attention to the unsatisfactory nature, in some cases, of the care and attention which was being given to children under the care of local authorities and voluntary organizations. That pamphlet, I think, caused some public disquiet. That was a good thing.

915
Shortly afterwards, or about that time, there was the case of the boy called Dennis O'Neill. Your Lordships will remember that case. The boy had been boarded out by a local authority and, to put it crudely, died through the cruelty of the foster-parents with whom he had been boarded Cm:. There was an inquiry into the case by Sir Walter Monckton, and he reported that:
"the administrative machinery was adequate, but it should be informed by a more anxious and responsible spirit, "
which, to my mind, means that whilst there were many people who had administrative responsibility, there was no one really concerned in the personal welfare of that child. And so we appointed the Curtis Committee in March, 1945. At the same time we appointed the Clyde Committee for Scotland,
"to inquire into the existing methods of providing for children deprived of normal home life, and to consider what further measures should be taken to compensate them for lack of parental care."
Historically the care of children has developed in this country on diverse lines. There have been different Government Departments dealing with this matter, and when it came down to the local authorities there were different committees of the local authorities dealing with the care of children. Speaking broadly, so far as England and Wales are concerned, the Ministry of Health are at the present time responsible for destitute and homeless children who are dealt with under the Poor Law, for infants' care and for the supervision under the child life protection provisions of the Public Health Acts of children taken for reward. The Home Office, however, are responsible for neglected and delinquent children under the Children and Young Persons Acts, and there are the special groups of children who are now, and under this Bill will remain, under the change of the Ministry of Education or the Ministry of Pensions. Thus it would be true to say that, in the main, central responsibility is divided between the Home Office and the Ministry of Health.
The other day I came across a saying of President Lincoln which may be known to your Lordships. He said that one bad general is better than two good ones. I think there is a good deal of force in that remark. I do not suggest that the Home Office is a bad general
916
but, as I see it, to have one good general avoids the disadvantages of divided authority. To whichever Department you entrust this matter, there is a great deal to be said for entrusting it to one Department. Just as we have these two Departments centrally, so we have various committees under the local authorities. There was machinery for delegation under the Local Government Act of 1930, and in some cases the care of children has been entrusted to one Committee; but even here there is overlapping. In Scotland, of course, centrally the care of children comes under the Secretary of State for Scotland, but in practice it is shared by three different Departments, and the local administration in Scotland, as in England, is divided between various committees of the local authorities. The first recommendation of the two Reports, which run very much on similar lines, is to have this central responsibility unified.
I should like, in a very informal way, to pay a tribute to the work of the Clyde and Curtis Committees. Those of your Lordships who have read these Reports, and I presume that nearly everyone has, will agree with me that in part they make very unhappy reading. For instance, anyone who can think that the trouble of bed-wetting by small children, great nuisance as we know it to be, should be dealt with by administering the cane, to my mind deserves to have the cane administered to himself. Those two Reports make recommendations designed to give all children who are deprived of a normal home life, all the advantages which, as near as may be, make up to them what they have lost:. They recommend, as I have said, central responsibility, in England, Wales and Scotland; centralization of local authority responsibility; and they deal with methods for securing adequate care. As between the various Departments, there is much that might be said. I have always much regretted the view, which is somewhat commonly held, that the Home Office are a Department dealing only with crime and criminals. That is a complete misapprehension. In fact, the Home Office have very large protective functions in regard to children. Let us not forget that the Home Office were responsible for the Children's Acts of 1908 and 1933, commonly called the "Children's Charters," and they have provided for the welfare and training of children who were in need

917
of care or protection, or who were offenders against the law.
The general experience—I am sure your Lordships will agree with this—is that the child's environment is the primary factor leading to appearance before the court, whether it be a case of neglect or whether it be one of delinquency. Remember that the court's function is to prescribe the treatment which is best suited to the individual requirements of the children. The Home Office deal with guardianship, with protective measures, such as regulation of employment, with international questions, and with the law of adoption. Let me pause here to say, in parenthesis, that we do not pretend in this Bill to deal with the problem of adoption. It is realized that there are problems, and they have to be dealt with, but they are dealt with in another Bill. The Home Office also deal with the probation service and the inspection of voluntary homes. Its Children's Department is experienced, and has had tribute paid to it by the Curtis Committee who said:
"It has developed to a considerable extent the study of the substitute home."
In Scotland the position is comparable. The Bill provides that every local authority is to have a children's committee, unless the Secretary of State, for special and exceptional reasons, considers that that requirement should be dispensed with. That children's committee are to deal with the care of children removed from their homes by order of the court; child life protection under the Public Health Acts in England and Wales and under the Children and Young Persons' Act in Scotland; the registration of adoption societies; supervision of children placed by their parents in the care of persons other than their parents; and provision for children received into care under this Bill.
The children's committee are to appoint a children's officer for the area of each local authority, with a possible right of combination of more than one area. The children's officer is to be employed on no other duties except looking after children, save with the express consent of the Secretary of State. It is for the local authorities to give the children's officer adequate staff. I should suppose that in many cases—I think I might say in most cases—the children's officer would be a woman, and she would require not merely
918
academic qualifications, skill and administrative capacity but, beyond everything else, enthusiasm, fondness for children, and the type of personality which would enable her to be looked upon by the children as a real friend. Then she will be able to restore to the children the sense of being real members of the community and not unwanted members, as these children are so apt to feel they are. Of course, she cannot know all the children in care, and she must, therefore, have officers under her who will be allocated to specific groups.
The third section of the Committee's recommendations, dealing with the' methods to secure adequate care, are dealt with in various parts of the Bill—in Part I and II and, I think, in Part IV. Part I replaces the provisions of the Poor Law as respects children. It defines the responsibility of a local authority to receive the child and to keep him in care; and it safeguards the rights of parents or guardians. It enables a local authority, by resolution, to assume parental rights in specified types of cases. Clause 2, which was a difficult clause to draft, tries to draw a happy mean between interference with the rights of the parents—which experience leads me to say should be very seldom undertaken—and the responsibility of the local authority to see that the children are not neglected. Accordingly, the duty of a local authority under Clause 1 is to receive into their care those children under seventeen who are being—to put it crudely—neglected, if they are orphans, abandoned or lost, or children whose parents cannot for any reason provide them with proper and adequate accommodation, maintenance or upbringing. Your Lordships will notice that the local authorities are not entitled under Clause 1 to remove the child from the care of the parents against their wishes.
Having taken the child into their care, they must keep him until he is eighteen. If they can find a suitable parent, guardian, relative or friend, that person should take over the care. And to preserve the essential contacts, your Lordships will see that under Clause 22 it is provided that the local authority may pay the travelling expenses of those people who, by reason of their circumstances, find it difficult to pay. Clause 2 is the clause which enables the local authority

919
by resolution to assume parental rights—that is to say, if there is no parent, or if they regard the parent as permanently unfit. That follows Section 52 of the Poor Law Act, 1930, so far as England and Wales is concerned, though I think it is new to Scotland.
We have given what I hope and believe are: adequate safeguards to protect the position of the parent. The parent or guardian is to be notified of his right to object within one month, and, if he objects, the resolution then lapses unless application to the juvenile court is made within fourteen days and the juvenile court affirms the resolution. Once ratified, the resolution stands until the child reaches the age of eighteen, although the local authorities may at any time rescind the resolution if they think it to the benefit of the child so to do. The court may at any time, on the application of the parent or guardian, discharge the resolution or allow the child to be temporarily placed with the parent or guardian for a period of trial. A resolution can be made only in specified cases. If the child in care under Clause 1 should be removed by the parent to unsuitable surroundings, then further action would have to be taken by way of an application to the court under the existing powers of the Children and Young Persons Acts. The power of the local authority to act as a fit person becomes a duty if the child is committed to their care by a court, although the local authority may make representations to the court if they think it undesirable.
Part II of the Bill sets out principles to guide local authorities as to how they should best consult the interest of the child and best bring out his character and abilities. It stresses their obligation to use all facilities, educational and otherwise, which would be available for the use of a child in a normally happy home. It sets out various methods of care and maintenance. I am glad to say that the conclusion has been reached, which I feel sure is right, that, of all the methods, the best is that of boarding the child out, if only a suitable home can be found in which the child can become a member of the family. So long as a suitable family is found, I feel quite certain that that method is a better one than placing the child in even the best
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form of institution. But if such a home cannot be obtained, then the local authority can use either their own residential homes or the homes of voluntary associations.
As things are to-day, I am afraid that residential establishments will remain necessary for a long time. I think it regrettable, because I do not believe one can do better than arrange for the children to become members of an ordinary family, sharing the normal life of the community. But I must not let myself go about the use of workhouse premises, although, having read the Curtis Report:, it would be easy for any of us to do so. Of course, when you are dealing with the under-threes, and you have a nursery set apart from the institution, that is another matter. Here it is fair to say that, although the environment is often poor, yet I do not think it is harmful. I feel strongly that it is desirable to separate nurseries from institutions of that sort. Where institutional nurseries exist, they may under the Bill continue for the under-threes if they are approved, and only if they are approved, by the Secretary of State.
Unhappily, the use of the workhouse was not restricted to the under-threes. Although the English Poor Law prohibited this for periods of more than six weeks, numbers were retained for months and sometimes longer. Often there was no special ward or place for them to live in and nowhere to play, and the children were not sent to school. The Curtis Committee reported cases of children living for months in wards, in company with senile people and those who were sick with all sorts of diseases. We should have liked absolutely to bar all children over three from being admitted into an adult institution, but we realize that their admission may be necessary in a case of emergency as things are to-day, and, therefore, the Bill makes it permissible to take in children under three for a period of fourteen days only, unless that period of time is enlarged by the Secretary of State. For the rest of the adult institutions, we must substitute either homes provided by the local authority which have facilities for the temporary accommodation of children, or a children's home for the accommodation of children to be put in a place of safety. Your Lordships will find that provision in various clauses of the Bill.

921
Then there are powers given to the Secretary of State to make regulations to secure the welfare of children boarded out or maintained in children's homes. Those regulations cover medical care, and it is contemplated that they should also deal with the facilities to be given for enabling a child to receive religious instruction in the religion of its parents, because that is a matter to which we all attach importance. Sometimes it happens that children are in care for very short periods—perhaps the mother is ill, having a new baby or something of that sort. Sometimes it happens, however, that there are no parents who can care for children properly, and in circumstances such as those the children must be in care throughout their whole childhood. The duty of care ends at the age of eighteen. But we do not desire the children to be unnecessarily penalized, and just as a good parent looks after his child after eighteen, so we provide that the local authority may continue to look after these children after the age of eighteen. The local authority may provide hostels for the accommodation of children up to the age of twenty-one, and they may contribute to their maintenance in other hostels or suitable lodgings near the place of employment or the place of training. Evidence shows the great value of that work.
We provide further that persons who have never been in care may be accommodated at the local authority's hostels. I am sure that is right, because I think it is very undesirable to segregate these children and to mark them, as it were, as children who have been in care, and keep them aside from all other children. The local authority may also make grants for the education and training of persons in their care on reaching the age of eighteen; in other words, to give them the same opportunities as normal children. Then the Secretary of State and the Minister of Education—or in Scotland, of course, the Secretary of State—may make regulations dealing with the various functions of the local authority on the one hand, and the local education authority on the other, where there is any danger of an overlap. In short, the local authority are to be entitled, if need requires, to behave to the children in their care as a normally good parent would behave to his own children.
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Part IV of the Bill provides for the control of voluntary homes and all the work of the voluntary organizations in boarding out children. It extends slightly the definition of voluntary homes to include those supported wholly or partly by endowments. There are 1,049 voluntary homes in the United Kingdom, and now that we bring into that category those dependent solely on endowments there will be some slight increase. Under the Bill, the Secretary of State is to have power to make regulations for the welfare of children boarded out and for their supervision either by the local authority or by a voluntary organization. He may make regulations for the conduct of voluntary homes and for the control of emigration, which is dealt with to-day largely by voluntary organizations.
May I say at once that these steps do not imply any general distrust of the work which these voluntary organizations have done? Very much on the contrary. They have done magnificent work; they have been pioneers in this matter, and it would indeed be grudging of me were I not to pay a tribute to the work which they have done. But as is almost inevitable, of course, they have not all attained an equal standard of excellence: some of them, indeed, have lagged far behind. And what we want, by our powers of inspection, is to see whether we can bring the bad homes more nearly to the level of the good ones. So we provide that all homes are to be registered and are to become liable to inspection. The Secretary of State may refuse to register a home. He may remove the registration of a home; and if he so desires, after notification of his intention to remove the registration of a home, he may remove children from that home and place them under the care of the local authority.
Many of these small homes are in difficulties owing to lack of funds, and the Curtis Committee went out of their way to pay a tribute to them. We have taken power under this Bill to enable grants to be made for the special case of these small homes. There is one other question. When you undertake the care of a child, and the child has passed out of your care and goes out into the big world, sometimes that child will fail. It is then most important that the child should have someone in the position of a parent to whom he can turn for advice and for help. We are placing that on the shoulders of the local

923
authority. They may do it themselves, or they may obtain the assistance of the voluntary societies in seeing that that work is done.
Part V of the Bill, deals with the extension of the child life protection provisions of the Public Health Acts and, in Scotland, the Children and Young Persons Act; and, putting it quite shortly, we are extending these provisions from the age of nine (at which they now end) to school leaving age. So, also, we extend the provisions of Section 7 of the Adoption of Children (Regulation) Act, 1939. We also bring in orphaned children, on whose behalf a guardians' allowance or family allowance is being made to a person who is not a parent or a relative. Such children are to be deemed as being placed for reward and so brought within the child life protection provisions. Provision is made for the appointment of guardians by a court, including magistrates' and county courts. The Curtis Committee believed it right—and experience may well prove that they are right—that if provision could be made for guardianship applications to be decided in the lower courts, many people might be willing to accept guardianship where they would not be willing to go the whole length of adoption.
Then, of course, provision has been made for inspectors appointed by the Secretary of State to visit children under care, and to visit all children boarded out, whether by the local authority or by voluntary associations. This means that the inspectorate must be expanded and we expect that at a later stage they will be regionalized. In Scotland too, additional inspectors will be required. At the present time we have in the Home Office inspectorate persons who are qualified to conduct medical investigations, and also persons who are specialists in child welfare. Of course, everything depends on the type and quality of the inspectors we have. It is all very well to provide for inspection, but we must have the right sort of inspectors. Local Government inspectors may visit voluntary homes in their area, or may visit them in another area in which that local authority have boarded out children.
It is obvious that there is urgent need to provide workers trained in child care. We above established a Central Training
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Council in Child Care. It was established last July, and your Lordships will be glad to hear that one hundred women have been accepted by the Council for training as house-mothers. The first course of thirty students started in London last month, and we also have sixty women who started training as boarding-out officers at four universities last October. The Bill provides for the appointment of an Advisory Council in Child Care in England and Scotland. So far as the finance is concerned, the Government will pay 50 per cent. of the local authority's expenditure. Your Lordships will remember that up to the present there has never been any direct Exchequer grant in respect of Poor Law expenditure. Equally, we provide that grants to voluntary organizations, and of money expended on training, shall be shared fifty-fifty between the Government and the local authority.
I am deeply conscious of the fact that it is one thing to pass an Act of Parliament and quite another thing to get effective work done under it. The most we can do by Act of Parliament is to provide a scheme on the strength of which the individual may give his work and his enthusiasm to the task. Everything, therefore, will depend on the way in which the children's committees of the local authorities function, the way in which the children's officer serving that committee docs his or her work, and the way in which other officers work. In short, it depends on the enthusiasm of all sections of the community to see that the Bill which we have drafted—and which I have no doubt will be improved with your Lordships' assistance—does not become a dead letter, but does provide an opportunity and an incentive to all those people who work in what is perhaps the noblest cause of all—looking after our children.
Although this is going to cost money—make no mistake about that—yet it is surely an investment which we are well justified in making. We are not dealing with small numbers. I think on Page 27 of the Curtis Report your Lordships will see mentioned the figure of 125,000 children. If we can do something to restore to those children as nearly as we can the benefit of a happy home, to make those children feel that they are wanted members of the community, to restore to them the self-confidence which comes from that knowledge, then I claim that this Bill will

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have been as important as any of the Bills I have ever introduced into your Lordships' House. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.39 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I am certain that we are all indebted to the noble and learned Viscount for the way in which he has introduced this measure this afternoon. I am glad that the Government have seen fit to introduce the Bill in this House. It enables us, as the Lord Chancellor himself said, to turn away from some differences that we had last week, and to settle down to a Bill which I believe will have the unanimous support of us all. The fact that it has been introduced here seems somewhat to settle one of the matters in slight dispute last week, because surely it establishes that we are something more than a mere revising Chamber and something more than a Chamber of an advisory character. Here is an important Bill which, as the noble and learned Viscount said, has the advantage of being introduced for its first time in this House. The Bill owes its birth and its original conception to a Committee appointed in the days of the Coalition Government. The Clyde Committee were appointed by Mr. Tom Johnston in April, 1945, the Curtis Committee were appointed jointly by Mr. Herbert Morrison, Mr. Henry Willink, and Mr. R. A. Butler. We all agree that it was a good thing to appoint those Committees and that they have produced first-class Reports. I am sure that we should all like to join in the tribute which the Lord Chancellor has paid to the Chairmen of those Committees and to all who served as members, for there is much guidance in these Reports.
This Bill sets up the framework within which advantage may be taken of such guidance. However, when all is said and done, as indeed the noble and learned Viscount said in his concluding words, it is the way in which the Act is administered and worked which will really count. What we seek to provide for these unfortunate children cannot be the best, because the best, of course, is living in a happy home with one's own parents—in the way in which, I suppose, most Members of this House had the advantage of being brought up. I certainly
926
was extremely fortunate in that respect. We have to give these children, not quite the best, because we cannot, but the very next best thing. Therefore, there is a great responsibility laid upon those who undertake to try to provide that which each of these children lacks and which each of these children was meant to have—that is, a good home. Whether those doing this work are members of the local government committees or are children's officers, they have a big responsibility; but at the same time they have a wonderful opportunity of doing really great work.
I am extremely glad that the opportunity has been taken to set up as separate entities these children's committees. In the county in which I live there have been three committees dealing with this general body of work. There has been the children's care sub-committee of the education committee, there has been the children's sub-committee of the public assistance committee and there has been the maternity, child welfare and nursing sub-committee of the health committee. Each of these three sub-committees has been doing work which is now, quite properly, to be absorbed into one committee. I believe that it is absolutely right because I care even more to see that there is just that one authority in the localities than I do to sec that there is one authority at the centre. Although I believe that it is important to have only one Ministry responsible here, I believe it is even more important to have only one committee of the local authority dealing with these children, in many cases from the cradle, to the time when these children can properly fend for themselves.
I am particularly glad of the provision in Clause 38 (4) which continues to allow co-option to these committees, because not everyone elected to a council has either the knowledge or the inclination to do well a job like this. The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, said that there has been a great deal of success in the recent past in this field. A great deal of that success has been due to those voluntary workers who have given their time to helping those in charge of children's homes. We should pay a great tribute to most of the matrons of these children's homes, but it is a good thing that they should have somebody to come and help them in their difficulties, somebody who will sympathize with them,

927
and who on the committee will put their point of view which otherwise might be lacking.
These voluntary workers, moreover, give much of their time to visiting the children who are boarded out. Visiting these homes is an equally important task. Indeed, in many cases of which I know, these voluntary workers have these children out to their own homes and do a great deal to get going what I believe is called the "uncles and aunts" scheme whereby somebody outside the home will have these children to their own individual home on a Sunday afternoon or for a day or two, or perhaps even for a period in the holidays. I am not in any way running down officials, but I think that tasks of that kind are best done by voluntary workers who have not their eye on the clock to see whether this comes within their official working hours, because these are jobs that cannot be measured by the clock or the time they take; they must be done at the most convenient times, when the children can be found at home. Therefore, I hope that in: he case of every one of these new committees those who have already given themselves to this task will still find a place.
As I have said, a job of this sort is not done merely by attending committee meetings. All these people should know all the homes under their jurisdiction. They should have visited in their immediate area the homes to which they are sending children, and they should be prepared to go to visit children boarded out in their immediate neighbourhood and to get to know both the people with whom those children are boarded and the children themselves. Like the Lord Chancellor, I believe that boarding out in a good home is almost invariably the best method, provided that it is a good home, especially the kind of home where there are parents with perhaps one child of their own who would like to have another child, so that they can bring up the two children together. But a great number of these children's homes are most admirably run. At the nearest home to the place where I live an offer to take one of the girls for the Christmas holidays was received' from a very kind lady who, thinking to be helpful, added at the end of her letter, "I am prepared to take rather an
928
unattractive child if you have one." The matron was indignant at this and said. "There is no unattractive child in my home at all." That attitude of the matron towards her children is rather borne out by the fact that, although a number of neighbours and people in the district around offered to take some of the small girls for a week or so at Christmas, not a single child volunteered to leave the home to go, as it were, for a holiday elsewhere.
This leads me to say that I agree, and I suppose all your Lordships will agree, that the last thing one wants; to see is the housing in the workhouse of children who are no more than tiny infants. I was rather glad to hear the Lord Chancellor use the term "workhouse." We get all sorts of phrases nowadays which cover the word "workhouse." The institution near my home is called "The Longfleet Gardens," and has been so called for some time. The; Bill speaks of providing accommodation and maintenance for the child "in premises in which accommodation is being provided under any Act of the present Session to terminate the existing Poor Law." That is a delightful definition, and is summed up in what was better called "the workhouse" by the Lord Chancellor. I hope, as I know that he and the Government and all forward-looking local authorities hope, that we shall soon be able to dispense with having these children in the workhouse at all.
I have spoken about the active members of the Committee and the way in which they ought to look upon their job if they are going to serve on these committees. Now I come to perhaps more important persons than those—namely, the children's officers. I am glad to think that every authority will now have a children's officer. That person ought, of course, to give practically the whole of her thought to and have her whole outlook concentrated on the children—how they are being fed and housed, how they are being generally looked after, in what: sort of way they are being brought up, and whether the environment of each of them is such that he is given the best possible chance of becoming a good citizen and of leading a happy and healthy life. I believe it will be possible in small counties for the children's officer herself to know a great number of the children in the county. I do not believe

929
that she need have very many assistants. She can get round and do a lot of the outside work, subject to one small criticism of the Bill that I intend to make in a moment or two.
I would like to see it established as a regular thing (it would help her to visit boarded-out children as well) that every children's officer should herself go and live in one of the local authority's homes for a night or two, because a casual inspection when those running the home know that you are coming is nothing like so good as living on the spot and", in fact, eating the same meals that the children are given. That is a very good test. The children's officer should live in the home for three or four days at a time, although perhaps not spending the whole of the day there, and should take the opportunity while living there of going round and visiting the boarded-out children in the neighbourhood. Then she will really get to know what happens in the home and what it is necessary that the Committee or she herself should do for the home. In that way such a measure of confidence in those running the home will be established that they will treat one another as friends, as indeed one treats anybody who comes and stays with one in one's own home. If this measure is to be a success, the service must be and must remain a human service, and neither the committee nor the children's officers should have their minds directed to matters of red tape, unless those matters are very subsidiary ones.
This brings me to my only real criticism of this Bill. I feel that in it there is too much central control, and that the children's officer will not give of her best if she has to keep her eye most of the time on the Home Office and on seeing that various forms are properly filled up. Nor do I think you will get the best people to serve on the local authority committees if they are, in effect, mere agents of the Ministry and have no great responsibility left to them. I really look with some horror at clause 15 (4) of this Bill which says that the Secretary of State may make regulations about these homes. Subsection (4) (c) says that the regulations:
"require the approval of the Secretary of State to the construction of buildings with a view to the use thereof for the purposes of homes, to the making of additions, diminutions or alterations to or of, or to or of the
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grounds of, buildings used for the said purposes or to the putting of a building, or of any land, into use for the said purposes."
Thinking back—and it is so long ago that I have no doubt your Lordships will not mind my quoting what happened—I remember that my brother, who for some years has been trying to improve Borstal boys, was starting a new Borstal home at Lyram Grange near Nottingham, and he thought it should be a much more homely and pleasant-looking place than was the old-fashioned prison. But, rather naturally, as it was being built by the Home Office everything had to be referred to them. The struggles that my brother had to get a suitable, pleasant building for carrying on work for the reform of boys were tremendous. He did not have them with the Home Secretary of the time, but with people in the Lands Department and Buildings Department, who had their minds very much set on one type of building. If it is sought to put this in so that the buildings may not be of the workhouse type, and the Home Office are to have this provision to ensure that they are not, then that is all to the good. But as the result of that experience of the Home Office, I would just as soon leave it to the local authorities to see that these places are not uniform as refer the design of all these buildings back to the central office. So, I think, there is a case for us to look into some of this overriding authority from the centre, and see whether we cannot get some agreement to have it rather lessened.
I would not, however, lessen the power of the Home Office to inspect what the authorities are doing. What I think should be followed much more are the lines upon which the Ministry of Education work. I do not know whether it is appropriate in this case, but it seems to me that it would be a sound idea to have a scheme, to start with, which would be sent by the local authority to the Home Secretary. Then if he approve the authority would go ahead. That, as your Lordships doubtless remember, was the procedure under the Education Act, 1944, with which, indeed, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, had something to do. I am not at all sure that that is not the best way to proceed—get the local authorities to submit a scheme, as under the Education Act, and once a scheme has been approved let them get on with it, rather than insist

931
on having all sorts of little bits approved in meticulous detail by someone in the Home Office. I certainly believe, also—as do the Ministry of Education—in having inspectors going round. I would not suggest that they ought to see every child, but I think they should look at most of the homes, whether they are voluntary institutions or whether they come under a local authority. It should be for them, I suggest, to discuss in general with the children's officers and other officials, how matters are going.
Inspectors can do a lot of good, so long as they are the right people and so long as they pay their visits in the right spirit. The spirit I mean is that which finds expression in saying: "Well, it is interesting to see that you are doing it this way, but I found what I thought was the best way of doing it in such and such a county." These inspectors will be able to take advantage of their invaluable experience of the way the work is done by all these authorities, and they can bring up the backward authorities to a better standard by giving advice on those lines. I do hope that the Home Secretary and the Home Office will not try to work this service, which must be an individual and human service, too much by meticulous direction from Whitehall. County councils, and county borough councils, are bodies of sufficient capacity and responsibility to cope with these inciters without such supervision. Indeed, many of the officials of those authorities have, naturally, far more practical experience of dealing with these matters on the spot than officials in Whitehall, or even in Edinburgh, can possibly have. So I very much hope that the Government will consider matters of this sort with an open mind.
I would now like to say two things about the voluntary homes and the bodies which run them. As the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack has said, those bodies have been the pioneers in much of this effort, and almost universally they have done extremely good work in this field. Many a man and many a woman owes his or her success in life to such institutions as Dr. Barnardo's Homes—I pick that out as an example merely because I happen to know it well. The various bodies running these voluntary homes have had excellent training
932
courses. These were referred to, I believe, in the Interim. Report of the Curtis Committee. In paragraph 8 of that Report it was recommended that on the Central Training Council, which it was suggested should be set up, there should be representatives of the Council of the Associated Children's Homes, a body representing 85 per cent. of the voluntary homes in England and Wales. I am told that No 1nvitation has yet been given to that body to serve, and I would like to ask this": Are they to be asked to send representatives to. sit on the Advisory Council to be set up under this Bill? I welcome the formation of that Advisory Council, but I do not want a council merely of officials. I want to see a council of people who have taken an interest in this subject, and who have themselves done this good work in the past. If the noble Lord can tell me at the end of this debate that they are, then I am certain that everyone who has taken an interest in this matter will warmly welcome such an assurance.
LORD MORRISON: I can tell the noble Lord now, that the answer to his question is "Yes."
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am extremely obliged for that prompt answer. I am quite certain that the Government will be doing the right thing in this. I know that these associations, and a lot of the voluntary organizations which are running these homes, will be extremely glad to hear of the answer which the noble Lord has just given to me.
The only other point I wish to make in regard to voluntary homes is this. I do not wish to see any home of this kind continued if it is not giving good service. I wish to make that clear to all right away. In Clause 29 (3), which says that the Secretary of State may take action, there does not seem to be any way in which a home can make representations or can be heard in public—at a public local inquiry or something of that sort, for instance. If that home has been in existence for some considerable number of years I do not think that it should be stopped quite suddenly. There will probably have been talks in the home itself, but in a case of this kind—that is, a case where a home may be struck off the register, for that is what it amounts to—I think the home should be able to

933
appeal, and that people in the neighbourhood, at any rate, should know just what is happening, and why. The home should not be closed merely by some file coming up in the Home Office—I do not know even whether the Home Secretary sees it—or in some such hole-and-corner way. It is just as well there should be some right of appeal. We shall be able to raise this at a further stage. I do not know why we do not keep the provision that local authorities may take the first steps in getting rid of such a home and have the matter come before a tribunal to decide whether or not it should be shut down. Those are the provisions which have obtained up to date. I believe that matters of this sort should be done in the open. Homes which may have been going on for a long time should not be suddenly shut down in twenty-eight days.
After these slight criticisms, let me come back to commendation. I am glad that provision for hostels has been made. Quite a number of good local authorities who cannot find homes in which to board young people to-day have provided hostels. I am glad that this is to be encouraged. I am glad, too, that the child life protection service is to be continued beyond the age of nine. That is all to the good. Here again, I have one slight comment. Why boys of the age of 18, who in a year or two may be fathers themselves, should still be called children, as they are in the Bill, I do not quite know. Although this kind of wording in the Bill may not seem important to many, it does irk a young man who has been earning his living for three or four years to find that he is still referred to as a child. I hope that we may be able to use the term "young person" to describe them when they get beyond the child age.
I end on the note on which I began—that we on this side of the House welcome this Bill. It is one of the last great measures of social reform which I think we can claim were conceived in the days of what Mr. Churchill, in his generous present to everyone who served with him, has termed the great Coalition. We on this side of the House, therefore, will help this Bill in every way we can. We shall examine it in the same spirit that animated all of us—the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack and myself—when we served together in the
934
same Government. I think it is a good Bill. I hope that in a few particulars, during its course in this House, we may be able to make it an even better Bill. If we approach it in this way, as I know from past experience the noble and learned Viscount is always inclined to do, I am quite certain that this Bill will go through this House, welcomed by all and in some respects improved. I only hope that it will be the foundation for a great service for those unfortunate children who, unhappily, number far too many in our country to-day.
4.14 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Beveridge and Lord Amulree, are to speak later on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches, and if I venture to ask your Lordships' leave to intervene for a few moments at this point, it is because, by coincidence, it so happens that to-day is the fortieth anniversary of the introduction in another place of the first Children Bill. It was on February 10, 1908, that, as Under-Secretary at the Home Office, I had the privilege of presenting the first measure of this character to be placed upon the Statute Book. It was a Bill of over 100 clauses, consolidating and amending more than twenty Statutes, establishing the system of juvenile courts and abolishing imprisonment of children, and effecting many amendments and extensions of the law relating to the prevention of cruelty to children and to what were then called the industrial and reformatory schools, as well as a great number of miscellaneous provisions.
That Bill was welcomed by both Houses of Parliament and passed into law without controversy. Twenty-five years went by and I again found myself at the Home Office, as Secretary of State, at a time when the hour was fully ripe for a further measure of the same character. I therefore invited the Under-Secretary in that National Government, Mr. Oliver Stanley, to draft and conduct through Parliament a further measure, another Children Bill, following the same lines as, but superseding in some parts and supplementing in others, the original Act. That he did with great efficiency and success, and it became the Children and Young Persons Act of 1933. Another fifteen years have elapsed and new circumstances and further experience render the time apt for a third measure in the same chapter of our

935
law. As I find myself, to my surprise, still extant on the legislative scene, I venture to offer these few words of grandfatherly welcome to this excellent Bill.
4.18 p.m.
LORD BEVERIDGE: My Lords, on behalf of those who sit on these Benches, I have great pleasure in welcoming this Bill, which, as the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack rightly said, is not controversial but very important. May I assure him that the more Bills of this nature that he can persuade his colleagues to send to this House, the better we shall be pleased—even if, in a congested Session, by doing so it may mean stealing a march on steel! This Bill deals with deprived children, children who are not enjoying the normal home life. But the Bill deals with only two classes out of three. Those children who have not the normal happiness of home life can be found in three places—in their parents' homes when the parents are not doing their job properly, in the public institutions and in homes managed by voluntary organizations. This Bill is concerned only with the last two classes and in that sense it is narrower than the legislation to which my noble friend Viscount Samuel has alluded, which covered children generally, and protected them in their homes as well as when they were under the care of somebody other than their parents.
I think it is important to realize that the children who may need protection although they are in their homes are at least as numerous as those who are in local authority institutions or in voluntary organizations. This Bill will not make unnecessary or less important the work of such great voluntary organizations as the National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children. This Bill is non-controversial, but its meaning needs to be made clear. Indeed, I am not sure that a certain amount of amendment will not prove necessary to make that meaning clear.
I want to illustrate that by referring to Clause 1 of the Bill, which imposes on local authorities an obligation (I do not quote the actual words; I put them into ordinary language) to take into their care any child which either has no parent or guardian or whose parent or guardian is considered unsuitable. The term "guardian" is defined in Clause 56 as "a person
936
appointed by deed or will or by order of a court." The question I want to ask is: Where do the children who are now in homes managed by the voluntary organizations stand in this matter? Are; they children without parent or guardian, so that they automatically come within the scope of the local authority, or are they not? I do not think that it will be easy for anyone to explain the exact effect of the Bill on that point. Yet it is vital. Are the authorities the: legal guardian of the children in Doctor Barnado's Homes, in the Foundling Hospital Schools, or in the Church of England homes? Of course, they can be made the legal guardian if before they take a child they get a deed signed by the person who gives them the: child. But if they do not do that, then those children still fall technically within Clause 1, as coming into the care of the local authority. I suggest that the point: as to whether or not a child is in the care of the local authority should be made: clear, because if you look at other clauses in the Bill that affects the powers of the local authority, and the purposes for which they can spend money.
I would ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, or the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, to look at Clause 19 (1) (b), which authorizes a local authority to provide money for hostels, after working age has been reached, for people who have been in the care of the local authority. Will the local authority, under that clause, be able to provide hostel accommodation for people who have been in Doctor Barnado's Homes or similar voluntary homes? Look at Clause 20. That clause provides similarly for expenditure on educating the child who has been in the care of a local authority. It is obviously vital to define exactly which children are, and which are not, in the local authority's care. Look at Clause 22. That is a clause to which the noble and learned Viscount referred, dealing with travelling expenses. That also is limited to children in the care of a local authority. I suggest that the Curtis Committee did not make up their mind, and the Government, apparently, have not made up their mind, on the matter of whether this formal obligation which they impose upon the local authority, of taking into their care every child who has not a parent or guardian, is or is not intended to cover the 60,000 children (I think that that is about the number) who are now in homes run

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by voluntary agencies. If His Majesty's Government have not made up their mind, they should make up their mind; and if they have made up their mind, I suggest that they should make it clear in the Bill. I do think the position of the voluntary homes is a point that needs clearing up.
I would now like to say something more about the voluntary organizations. I do not feel that the powers given to the Secretary of State by Clauses 30 and 32, as to making arrangements for the voluntary homes, are wide enough. It will be noticed, for instance, that in Clause 32 the Secretary of State may make regulations as to the conditions under which children shall be boarded out, but there is no power to make regulations requiring the adoption of boarding out by a voluntary home as the normal method where-ever it is possible. Remember that the whole policy underlying this Bill and the Curtis Committee Report is that the best thing to do with the child is, if possible, to board it out. Under the Bill every local authority are compelled to board children out, but no power is taken to require the same thing of a voluntary organization.
Coming to another matter, Clause 1 (3)—it is surprising that one has to dodge about so much in this Bill to find things that are related—protects the right of the parent, and takes steps to make certain that a local authority do not break the contact between the parent and the child. Steps will be taken to see that the parents can see the child, even though it is in the care of the local authority. So far as I can see, that clause does not apply to a voluntary organization, and there are voluntary organizations which are based upon the principle of breaking completely all contact between the mother and the child. I feel that is a dreadful thing, but it can still go on under this Bill. I went back from Clause 13 (1) to Clause 1 (3), and I would now like to go forward to Clause 40. In Clause 40 the qualifications of a children's officer are laid down. Every local authority must have a children's officer, and the Government axe careful to see that the qualifications of that officer are prescribed; they are very anxious about that. But there is nothing to say that the people who look after children in the voluntary homes should have any qualifications, and no power is given to the Secretary of State to prescribe qualifications.
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Finally, I dodge back to Clause 15 (2). That looks to be unimportant, but it is rather important, because it says that every local authority who provide homes for children shall provide at least one home which is in the nature of a reception and qualifying centre, where children can be examined by experts who can then decide what kind of home they ought to have. I think that is a very interesting suggestion indeed. It is a highly expert business, and probably quite a few of these centres will be needed all over the country. There will have to be such a centre for every local authority in the country. So far as I can see, there is nothing to require or encourage children to go to that reception centre before they are placed, as they might otherwise be placed, in a wholly unsuitable voluntary home. I just give these illustrations of cases in which the excellent regulations which are being applied to the local authorities are not being applied to the voluntary homes.
Of course there is control of the voluntary homes, they can be shut up altogether, but that is a capital penalty. It may sometimes happen that it would be be much better just to withdraw the particular individual child, but there is no power to do that under this Bill, as I read it. I hope that in making these remarks about voluntary organizations I have not given anybody the impression that I doubt the supreme value of voluntary action and voluntary agencies in dealing with children. I have no doubt about that at all. In dealing with these deprived children, what we are trying to do is to supply something which no money can provide. That is the real difficulty in dealing with the problem. We cannot, by paying people any amount of money, make certain that they will really look after the child as its parents would look after it. It is true that the only persons who can really do the job of replacing the parent of the deprived child are the people who have a sense of vocation. I think you are more likely to find that sense of vocation in a voluntary agency than in a local authority, and for this reason: a local authority does something because it is their duty to do it; but the voluntary agencies would not exist had not somebody conceived it was his vocation to rescue children. Therefore, I think it is most important that we should keep the voluntary organizations and use them.

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But equally—and this is vital—all voluntary organizations should be steadily brought up to the level of the best, and I am not sure that this Bill gives the necessary power for that purpose. Remember that some of these voluntary organizations have a good deal of history behind them, and they have charters and outlooks which in some cases are to-day completely antiquated. The idea of forcibly separating the mother from the child if the child is illegitimate is one of the antiquated ideas still possessed in some places, and it is one which should be got rid of. There is also a tendency in any organization, whether it be public or whether it be voluntary, to establish a ves ed interest in a particular way of doing a certain thing. We do not want in this manner to weaken the spirit of voluntary service to the children; we want to use to the full the voluntary organizations. This Bill, to my mind, is one of the most important Bills that could be introduced. It is not merely dealing with children but it is making a new experiment in the relations between public authorities and voluntary agencies. I believe it has not gone quite far enough in strengthening the powers of the Secretary of State over voluntary organizations as well as over local authorities. That is a point to which I would ask the Government to address their minds.
There is one; other point to which I would like to refer and which is quite different. I am not sure that I agree with what the noble Lord who preceded me said about the children's committee. I hope the Government will keep their minds a little open on that matter. Should there be an ad hoc committee for these deprived children, or should looking after these deprived children by the local authorities be made the function of a special branch of the Education Department? That matter was considered by the Curtis Committee, and your Lordships will see that the Report deals with the discussion upon that issue of whether there should be a special committee for the deprived children, or whether they should be dealt with through the education committee. That matter is referred to in paragraphs 439 and 440. I will say only that I do not feel convinced by the reasons given there. One reason refers to the fact that children under two are, of course, looked after by the maternity and
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child welfare committee. On that point, I would like the spokesman for the Government to tell me whether the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, was right in saying that the Bill means that there will be only one committee for all purposes for all children. Will the maternity and welfare work in respect of children who are not deprived be taken away from the welfare committee and be given to the children's committee? I think not. He spoke of having three committees which will now become one committee. I do not believe that that will happen, but I want to know whether it is the intention to do that under the Bill or not.
The whole object of what we are doing with deprived children is to make them as completely like the undeprived children as possible, and to bring them back into the general body of children who possess parents. Now the body which is dealing with children who have parents is the Education Department, and if you set up a separate department to deal with children who are deprived you will be continuing the one thing you want, if possible, to avoid—namely, the segregation of the deprived children. That is my reason for doubting the suggestion which has been made.
The ground the Curtis Committee had for making the recommendation is that the education committee are concerned mainly with the things of the mind and, therefore, may neglect the deprived children. There is something in that point, but, after all, the local education committee are also concerned, and have to be concerned, with children with special disabilities of all kinds. They have to look after them, and I am not sure that the same body ought not to look after deprived children who need special care, not because they are crippled, feebleminded or suffer from various diseases, but because they have no parents. I would ask the Government to consider whether it is really right to set up an ad hoc committee which will treat these children as different from other children. Those are all the points of criticism and comment that I want to make. After hearing the customarily lucid and attractive exposition of this Bill from the noble and learned Viscount who sits upon the Woolsack, we may feel sure that the Government will sympathetically

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consider all proposals made in this House to make this excellent Bill, if possible, more excellent.
4.39 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SHEFFIELD: My Lords, when this Bill, amended a little in detail, and the promised Bill concerning adoption have become law, then the recommendations of the Clyde and Curtis Reports will have been very fully covered, and the legislation concerning children—which, as we have heard, owed a great deal to the initiative of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel—will have been very well supplemented. We are rightly proud in this country of our concern for the care of children, and of the provision for that care. Possibly that pride is one reason why we are reluctant to face the black spots which still exist. Yet there is no manner of doubt that, especially in certain parts of the country that I know very well, there are more children suffering from persistent neglect than we care to recognize. A good deal could be done even without new legislation if the will to do it were there. It is well to remind ourselves of that fact when we are busy with new legislation. Legislation does not go far, unless there is a strong public opinion behind it to see that it operates.
It is also well to remember in these days that a great deal of child neglect is not now due to poverty but to such things as mental deficiency, parental irresponsibility, illegitimacy and sometimes, of course, sheer vice. This legislation will make it possible to rescue children from degenerate parents. But we ought to consider whether we cannot do more to prevent parents getting into that state—whether it might be possible by some statutory provisions to help mothers to do their job more objectively and so forth, and so make it unnecessary to deprive children of their home life. Many with whom I have a great deal of sympathy would like to see this Bill amended on that point. The whole case for this Bill, of course, is that at the present time a good many children are not being saved quickly and effectually from quite shocking neglect. The Bill tacitly recognizes, I think, that these children have suffered not only from bad parents and from the loss of parents, but also from a certain amount of departmentalism. One is glad to see, therefore,
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that the Bill concentrates the care of children upon one Department; and, happily, that Department is the Home Office. If it is not presumption so to do, I would say that many of us realize that the service rendered by the staff of the Home Office during many years has been quite beyond praise.
I find myself in disagreement—somewhat reluctantly—with the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, in what he said about the children's committees. It does seem to me, if the Bill is to do what we want it to do, that these children's committees should have executive powers and should be directly responsible to the county and borough councils, and not be sub-committees of the existing committees. I hope the Government will stand firm in that matter. I also hope that when it comes to administering the Act the Secretary of State will never allow, as a special and exceptional circumstance which may excuse the setting up of a new children's committee, the very natural desire of existing committees and their officers to keep as much as possible under their own umbrellas. After all, these bad patches in our country in regard to the care of children are partly due to the fact that this sort of matter falls between the stools of the health committees and the education committees, both of which at the present time are very much overworked.
I hope that it will be possible where an authority represent too small a population to have a full-time children's officer of their own, or even a children's committee of their own, that something regional may be devised. It seems to me, also, as has already been said by several speakers this afternoon, essential that the children's officers should be persons of the right sort. They should be full-time, and they should really care for children themselves and, what is so important, they should be going out and about and not sitting with their feet under desks all day. If an officer can really be a friend, not only of the children but of the matrons and of the homes, and of the foster-parents and so on, then she will do a most invaluable work. There will always be the danger, owing to the pressure of forms and what-not, from local authorities and from the central authority, that she may be driven into becoming an administrative officer sitting at a desk.

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That, I think, would destroy one of the main purposes envisaged by this new legislation.
It has been pointed out that the Bill follows the Curtis Report and, I think, the Clyde Report, in preferring good foster-parents and guardians to institutions. Those for whom I have a right to speak entirety agree. At the same time, one must recognize that there are not enough good foster-parents to go round, and therefore there must inevitably be a number of institutions. In our experience it is usually best to encourage unmarried mothers to keep their babies. But to make this possible in some cases there is a very real need for hostels where unmarried mothers can live with their babies, and from which they can go out to work. Of course, if, owing to a lack of that provision—and there is an almost complete lack of it—an unmarried mother is driven to part with her child it is a real tragedy. The placing of the child with a foster-parent should surely always come to the notice of, and be done with the approval of, the children's officer or the appropriate person acting with the children's officer. Unless I have misread the Bill, it does not seem to me to pay quite enough attention to paragraphs 449 and 450 of the Curtis Report. And the use of the very good word "friend" in line 21 on page 2 of the Bill, in this connexion has a rather ominous sound,
It is worth pointing out, and it links up with something which the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge said, that those unhappy children who have been brought up and are living under filthy conditions will have to be house trained. They will have to be studied from the psychological point of view for a time, in an institution, before they are fit to go to a foster-parent or, as the noble Lord well said, before we can be quite certain what is the best kind of home for them to go to. But I hope the point will be made that these temporary places of training shall never be the same places as the institutions in which children are living more or less permanently. Such institutions are there to fulfil quite a different function; and one reason why we are held up so much on this subject at the present time, of course, is that there is such a shortage of homes of that kind that children are: left with parents who sometimes
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are not able to look after them. I would point out that, unless I am wrong again in my reading of the Bill, there is nothing in it at present to prevent a parent or a guardian from removing a child from a home without notice when that child reaches an age at which it might be an economic asset to the parent or guardian. A careful balance has to be struck between the rights of the parent and the rights of the child. I feel that the Bill can be strengthened by a clause requiring parents or guardians to give some notice of withdrawal unless the children's officer considers that the period can safely be reduced.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, when he says that, broadly speaking, this Bill expresses the right sort of relationship between the statutory authority and the voluntary society. It provides for consultation; it provides for the continuation of voluntary institutions; and, quite rightly, it brackets grant aid with supervision and advice and provides, where necessary, for more severe action to be taken. I think I am speaking for the voluntary organizations, and certainly for the religious communions, when I say that we would welcome that measure of oversight. The representatives of the Home Office in the past have rendered us a great service in that way, and if the kind of spirit which has animated their service is continued under this new legislation, we have every reason to welcome with both hands this oversight and supervision. Voluntary organizations, Church as well as State, need to be preserved from those whose ideas of homes still hark back to the time of Charles Dickens, though happily such people are not very numerous these days and bad homes are being rapidly reduced in number. However, in that connexion I think we have to take note of the fact that some institutions—I am not just referring to workhouses—whose atmosphere may be reasonably good, are, by modern standards of social work, far too large as well as being very unsatisfactorily house. One would like to ask the Government whether they are prepared to give any kind of priority to building for this kind of purpose.
There are a certain number of references in the course of this Bill to religious instruction and upbringing, and I think members of your Lordships' House would expect someone speaking from this

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Bench to make some reference to the clauses concerned. So far as I can see, the provision made is fair and satisfactory in principle. If one or two minor Amendments may be moved in Committee, that will be an advantage. Let me take one example. Clause 14 (2) (c), on page 10 of the Bill, might, from our point of view, be strengthened. We agree that it may not always be possible to board out a child with a foster-parent of the same religious persuasion as the child. For myself, I would say further that it would be better to have a good foster-parent of another persuasion than a bad one of the same persuasion. I would go on to say that possibly in such cases there might be consultation with a religious authority before an order was made removing the child. We of the Church, and I think all councils of social service and similar bodies, are grateful for subsection (4) of Clause 38. May I just read it? It says:
"The children's committee may include persons specially qualified by reason of experience or training in matters relating to the functions of the committee, nowithstanding that they are not members of the local authority."
We hope that that provision will be exercised, for there are a great number of people engaged in this work who are not members of authorities. It would, I think, strengthen the work of these committees.
I would like to make one final point. I wish to try and distinguish, if I may, between religious instruction and religious upbringing. Educational authorities have a pathetic belief in the efficacy of religious instruction just by itself. Some of us feel that it has comparatively small value unless at the same time a child is brought up within the fellowship of believers. This is specially the case with neglected, homeless children and orphans. During childhood they need a friendly community within which to grow. How often one has met adults with no background or relatives, battling with life, solitary in a crowd, lonely and embittered. They might never have got into that state of maladjustment with society if, in their childhood, they had really had the experience of integration into a fellowship, such as a religious communion should be when it is true to its essential nature. I should like to persuade your Lordships that that is the real reason, and not any narrow ecclesiastical reason, why we wish
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to ensure, so far as possible, that guardians and foster-parents should be of the same religious persuasion as the child, and why we wish to add to those rather bleak words "religious instruction" the word "upbringing" which calls up a more homely and family-like vision.
In conclusion, let me say what has been said by every speaker this afternoon: that we who have some claim to represent the religious communions in the country do indeed welcome this Bill. Its intention is so obviously charitable in the very best sense of the word. If it is amended here and there, as speakers have suggested, and if it is continually put into effective operation, then we may feel fairly confident that the considerable number of children who are grievously neglected at the present time and therefore very liable to grow up into inadequate citizens, will have something like the experience which so many of us shared in our early life. They may then know that happiness, that confidence and that wholeness of life which is one of the irrepayable debts which we owe to parents who have given us happy memories. My last word is simply this: that we of the Churches—and I think this applies to all religious communions and all voluntary organizations—would be glad to have the opportunity of making the provisions of this Bill fully and deeply effective.
5.0 p.m.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, for a number of years (longer than I like to recall) I have been closely associated with certain organizations which are intimately concerned with the provisions of this Bill—namely, the National Association of Probation Officers and the National Mental Health Association. In respect of the former, I represented the interests of social workers of the courts when the Children and Young Persons Bill of 1933 was under discussion in your Lordships' House. Therefore I intervene in this debate to pay my tribute, together with other noble Lords, for the timely introduction of this Bill, and for the way in which the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has presented it to your Lordships' House this afternoon. I particularly welcome the intention of the Bill to provide the good environment and sense of security which are essential foundations for the healthy outlook of any child.

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The Report of the Curtis Committee clearly shows: ha: in many present-day homes run by local authorities or voluntary organizations, insufficient care was given to the personality of individual children and to the necessity of giving them the feeling of security which children fortunate enough to have a normal home generally enjoy. I was glad that the Lord Chancellor made reference to that point and explained, as the Report of the Curtis Committee explained, that that deficiency was largely due to lack of staff and lack of training, as well as to other causes to which the right reverend Prelate has just referred, such as out-of-date Victorian buildings of the barrack type. My Associations recognize that the very circumstances in which a child stands in need of the care of the State are potentially threatening his ordinary healthy development because he has not had the opportunity of enjoying the natural security which he would otherwise have had in his normal family home. We therefore feel that there is a big field for the prevention of an unhealthy mind and personality, if the enlightened and imaginative care provided for under the provisions of this Bill is not overlooked either by local authorities or by voluntary organizations.
Among the children who come under the parental care of local authorities under this measure there are a proportion who surfer from handicaps recognized under the Education Act of 1944—I refer to the blind, the deaf, the epileptic, the subnormal, the physically handicapped and the mal-adjusted children. We are very concerned to see that full advantage shall be taken for those children of the provisions of this Bill, conjointly with the provisions of the Education Act of 1944. In this respect I regret that certain clauses of the Bill appear to me to lack clarity and definition, and understanding of the Bill is, accordingly, as the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, said, seriously hampered. I entirely agree with Lord Beveridge in almost all the points of criticism he made in respect of the Bill, and at a later stage I think it will be necessary to obtain from the Government information in greater detail upon the way in which the Bill will co-ordinate with the National Assistance Bill, the Education Act and the National Health Service Act. I stress this point because all social workers will, I think,
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agree with me that there is an ever increasing tendency for more and more officials, either employed by voluntary organizations, by local authorities or by the central Government, to invade families and homes either on their ordinary visits or under the machinery of inspection. It is one of the curses of the present day that we have not sufficiently organized our machinery of social service administration so as to reduce to the minimum the number of trained persons qualified to enter any particular home.
The references to the regulations under this Bill that have been made previously by noble Lords are, I think, most important. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack said that the Bill would remove the grave disadvantages of divided authority, and, in many circumstances, it will succeed in that accomplishment. I suggest, however, that, apart from what the noble and learned Viscount said about the success of the Bill being dependent upon the children's committee of local authorities, upon the appointment of the children's officer, and upon public enthusiasm, it will, to a far greater extent, depend upon the regulations that are to be made under the provisions of the Bill. There are many clauses in the Bill which state that the right honourable gentleman the Secretary of State for Home Affairs may make regulations.
That occurs in no fewer than seven clauses of the Bill—clauses dealing with the real sinews of the Bill, such as boarding out by local authorities, the conduct of homes by local authorities, the allocation of functions between the education authority and the children's committee, and the conduct of voluntary homes. But there is all too seldom in the Bill a sufficient directive of the form in which the regulations should be framed. Together with Lord Beveridge, I feel, for instance, that the provisions of Clause 12, under which a statutory obligation is placed upon the local authority to carry out many of the duties referred to by the right reverend Prelate, must be incorporated with a similar provision under Part IV of the Bill. It appears to me that although this Bill goes a long way to eradicate the disadvantages of divided control and authority it still allows children of this category to be dealt with under three broad headings, and I question whether those three broad headings could not be more closely aligned under the provisions

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already provided for local authorities. The first of the three headings is the specific statutory obligation of local authorities to be in guardianship of, or have care and protection of, the children affected by this Bill. The restrictions on, or rather the means of control of, the voluntary organizations, are not so specifically delineated in the Bill as are those for local authorities. Further, there is left out from the terms of reference of the Bill a group of children who are now administered by the Ministry of Pensions as war orphans, and also a number of children who come under the aegis of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for War.
I understand, from advisers of the Home Office, that that method is administratively convenient because the children administered by the Ministry of Pensions are a non-recurring element. But can any of us say that we are not going to suffer a further burden of war orphans in the future? Even if we do not wish to embark upon that fundamental argument on this occasion, there are sufficient numbers to warrant the privileges of this Bill being extended to them during the next twelve or fifteen years. Therefore, I submit to the Government that further re-consideration should now be given to the possibility of their incorporation, so that these children who are now outside the provisions of the Bill will have exactly the same opportunities as are envisaged under the powers given to local authorities.
In respect of the desire for a clear definition of the type of regulations that will be provided to govern the main aspects of this Bill, I would say that I am in accord with the exact view point of the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, and I trust that at a later stage I shall be permitted to associate my name with his in the formulation of certain Amendments. There are certain principles involved in the provisions of this Bill, or surrounding the provisions of this Bill, which I consider to be of fundamental importance. They digress, in some respects, from what is included in the Bill, and, therefore, I would ask your Lordships' permission and indulgence to substantiate my point by referring to them shortly. We recognize that the 125,000 children to whom the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack referred, who will come
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under the provisions of this Bill, have, in the majority of cases, parents. Distressed, neglected, and mismanaged children though they may be, they have, in the majority of cases, parents.
I suggest that we have to address ourselves to two main questions: first, are the numbers of parents of such children on the increase; and, second, how can we best assist the parents with their responsibilities towards their children? The present rate of breakdown of marriages indicates that an ever-increasing number of children will fall under the provisions of this Bill. In the two years 1946-48, there were no fewer that 90,000 petitions for divorce. There were, further, 20,000 cases brought for legal separation. Marriages in this country total roughly 300,000 a year, so that if this rate of breakdown of marriages continues it means that one marriage in very five is going to end in disaster. It does not, I think, take a very vivid imagination to realize what the effect of that is going to be in terms of personal misery and social disruption. We can estimate that in a generation's time there may be no fewer than 4,000,000 men and women in this country who will have failed in marriage.
There will be many children concerned, but, fortunately, the number does not work out at more than 1.2 for each divorce at the present time. But even that means that about 72,000 children last year saw their family life broken up, and if we take the period during which children are dependent upon their parents as sixteen years, then by 1963 there may be well over 1,000,000 children of 16 years of age and under whose parents have failed to provide them with a normal home background. Workers with whom I am associated in my mental health organization know well what that will mean in terms of neurosis, delinquency, general personal insecurity, and social maladjustment. I recognize that the figures which I have quoted, although they are provided by those who are most qualified to express an opinion, are, undoubtedly, unreliable estimates, owing to the fact that so many varying factors may come in. However, I think they are sufficient to emphasize to your Lordships in broad terms the extent of this particular problem. And this is just one illustration showing the

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likelihood of more and more children requiring State care in the years that are to come.
I think your Lordships will agree, and all agencies concerned with the care of the young will confirm, that the children of to-day are, on the whole, becoming less disciplined. The influences of. the cinema, of such undertakings as dog racing, of unsavoury stories in the popular Press, of disrespect for the authority of the father, of the lack of influence of the Churches, and the general lowering of moral standards have all contributed to this deplorable fact. For instance, many young people go forth on their depredations straight from drinking their tea—if it is such a mild beverage—from a cup marked "G.W.R." or "R.A.F." The Southern Railway have estimated that no fewer than 7,000 cups a week are either broken or lost. If children drink tea in their homes from stolen cups, who is to tell them that it is wrong to take things from the open counter of a shop? Almost any group of teachers will confirm that sad story of too many ill-disciplined children, bordering on being out of control. They will also, I think, tell of an increase in the number of children insufficiently cared for, or mismanaged, through lack of knowledge.
All this is an indictment of our standards of parenthood and it brings me, if your Lordships will bear with me for a moment or two longer, to the second question of how we can best educate and assist parents in their duties and responsibilities towards their children. Your Lordships may think that my view is advanced, but it seems to me that science to-day is providing knowledge about the working of the mind and the emotions of the individuals at the same rate as it provided knowledge about the physical side during the course of the last century. It is becoming increasingly realized that the rearing of children is a task requiring a Special knowledge. If it requires special knowledge to guide and service a tractor, or to organize a piece of machinery in a factory, how much more does it require knowledge to guide and control children. People are trained for the first two tasks, yet: not for the last, which surely is of so much greater importance.
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In and out of your Lordships' House much stress is laid on the hardship of poverty, whilst the hardship of ignorance is all too often overlooked. Yet the waste and disorder of ignorance surely aggravate poverty, which knowledge would alleviate. If there are two houses of equal income in one street and one is found comfortable, clean and full of contentment and the other is dirty, disorderly and full of discontent, this difference is not due to any equality of worldly goods, but to the difference in knowledge, organization and interest of parents. I submit that family allowances will not alter this. The child of indifferent, uninterested parents will receive little benefit, for we cannot turn ignorant careless parents into lovers of children by giving them extra money. I would say that we merit the title of a plutocracy if we think that everything can be righted by money. Happy and successful families are surely those in which the parents have prepared themselves by study to rear the children. Often, we know, this education is obtained unwittingly in their parents' home during childhood; but it is wrong that others should be denied such teaching because their homes are unable to supply it.
In a land where education is compulsory, it is surely farcical that children, particularly girls, should be sent into the world ignorant of their most important, certainly their most usual, life work—that of bringing up children. The single act that would do most to safeguard the basic right of children, which is happiness, would be the institution of training in parenthood for all adolescents so that their own future families could be happier and better citizens. I submit that a comprehensive educational policy is needed, with sound family life as its objective. Sex education is not enough. Marriage preparation is not enough. The guidance of young people in their relations is not enough. Parentcraft and homecraft teaching are not enough. All these things need to be gathered up, integrated and welded into a planned and carefully thought out policy under the title of education for family life. I further submit that this policy must be accepted and carried out by four agencies—the home, the school, the Churches and the community. Only when we tackle the job in that spirit shall we have addressed ourselves seriously to our task.

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The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, referred to the two previous measures dealing with children, in which he played such a distinguished and prominent part. The popular Press has referred to the Bill now under discussion as a Children's Charter. It does not begin to be a Children's Charter. It is a Charter for only a limited number of children, those deprived of normal family life. The day has yet to come when we shall see the real Children's Charter, which will assist parents so to educate their children that their children's children will be in a better position to meet the demands of the twentieth century conception of citizenship. May I remind your Lordships of the words of the great educationalist, Sir Richard Livingstone?
"This generation has a double task: to create the New Order, of which we are always speaking; or, more accurately, to guide the nation through one of the greatest social changes in its history; but also to train human beings fit to live in that New Order."
I want to express my deep appreciation to your Lordships' House for having borne with me in this digression, but I think that we in your Lordships' House should take our fall share in considering measures which will be far more permanent and effective, and on a far wider scale. Curative this Bill can be, but prevention from the root cause does not enter into the provisions of this Bill. I hope that by amendment of the Bill in a few instances we shall at least be able to give great benefit and lasting assistance to the children covered by the Bill.
5.30 p.m.
LORD HOLDEN: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, as one who has had some experience of youth welfare and who has considerable interest in that subject, I would like to make a few observations in welcoming this Bill. I would have liked to answer the attack made on parents, but I do not now propose to do that, since it has been so ably done by the noble Lord opposite. I would, however, like to say that the fact that the Government need to bring in this Bill at all is, in a large measure, due to the failure to educate parents, both with regard to the ethical values and the responsibilities of parenthood. I would remind your Lordships that in America there are universities which have courses through which people can learn of the value of practical parenthood. It may be that one day in this country it will be
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considered advisable to establish such courses.
Passing to the main provisions of the Bill, I would like first (it has already been admirably done by the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Sheffield), to welcome those regulations dealing with the religious care of children, both in the selection of foster-parents and the homes and hostels in which the children are boarded. I think it is impossible to over-emphasize the importance of these regulations, and I hope that the local authorities will do all in their power to see that they are carried out. All children, whether with foster-parents or in homes, should be brought up in the religion of their parents, so far as it is known. I am sure that a religious background is essential for the future operation of this Bill.
I would like next to make a few observations on voluntary homes. I naturally welcome with all my heart the inspection which they are now to undergo. I think all who have had anything to do with hostels have been keen on their inspection and will be glad that this is now to take place. Naturally, the corollary to that is the power to be given to the local authorities, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to make contributions to any voluntary organization which itself contributes to the welfare of children. As has already been pointed out by the right reverend Prelate, I think there is a lot in this question of the withdrawal from a voluntary home of a child by a parent when that child is able to earn his or her own living. I have studied this with some care, and I think the possibility of the removal of a child from a voluntary home, because he is capable of earning his living, should be stopped. I would suggest that the parent should be required to give three months' notice of withdrawal of a child, in order to enable inquiries to be made by the local authority as to the suitability of the home to which the child is going. I think, also, that a voluntary home might have the power to get a resolution from the local authority to enable it to retain the child when the home to which the child is being returned is considered unsuitable. That is a very important point, and it is clearly wrong that a child should be removed from a happy voluntary home to be exploited by undesirable parents.

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I should now like to say a few words about hostels. I am happy to see that under Clause 19 local authorities will be able to provide hostels for children, after the compulsory school leaving age, up to the age of 21. But here we must be careful to bear in mind that the homes cater for the entire lives of children, while the principal object of a hostel is to provide them with lodgings from which they can. carry on their daily work. Many young persons have been deprived since childhood of their parents, and obviously at the age of sixteen in many cases they still need guidance and supervision. There is one point about which I may be wrong, but I do not see that voluntary hostels are to receive support from local authorities. If that is so, I very much regret it. I think local authorities should support them, as they have proved of great value in the past. It seems to me, also, that the experience of those people who run voluntary hostels should be very useful to the local authorities who are now to set up voluntary hostels of their own. I regard this, provision of hostels by local authorities for person:; under the age of twenty-one as one of the most necessary and vital parts of this Bill.
I would say in this connexion that I think there can be only one general objection against this Bill—I do not raise it, but it could be raised. That is that under the Bill more and more children will come under the control of local authorities in the future, and therefore will come under the control of the State. Undoubtedly children of dead, unknown or unworthy parents will come under the control of the State. I also share the view which other noble Lords have expressed, that a good parental home is of far more importance in the bringing up of a child than any foster-parents, or voluntary home or hostel, however excellent they may be—and they are indeed excellent. We all know that a good parental home depends on the sound religious and educational background of the parents, and a Bill which provides some home life, and, therefore, increases the happiness of many thousands of our young fellow citizens, should receive great support in your Lordships' House. My final word is that this is, above all, a Bill inspired by Christian principles, and I am sure that the subject will fully commend itself to your Lordships.
5.38 p.m.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, it is a great advantage to speak at the end of a debate, and there is nothing that I enjoy more than crossing out item after item from my notes. Let me, therefore, briefly say how much I welcome the speeches which have preceded mine in this debate. Perhaps it is important to say how fully and completely I agree with the speech of the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Sheffield, Like the noble Lord, Lord Holden, I feel very strongly on the point of consultation with appropriate religious authorities on boarding-out matters, and I trust that that will receive sympathetic consideration during the Committee stage of this Bill. May I try to carry a little further the: complaint uttered by my noble friend Lord Llewellin about the definition of "children"? It may be present in your Lordships' minds that the age of marriage: is now legally fixed for both sexes at sixteen. Presumably a number of these deprived young persons, as I prefer to call them, will be married at sixteen, and many more at seventeen. It is somewhat surprising, in the middle of the twentieth century, to be confronted with a Bill which, through its definition clause, appears to legalize child marriage.
A very important point has been alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, with regard to local authority arrangements. In Clauses 39 and 40 of the Bill the Home Secretary seeks wide: powers to make exceptions to the general rule of law in regard to the appointment of children's committees and the appointment of a children's officer. I cannot: see that there is wisdom behind this demand for power to make exceptions. I 1 have had some conversations with a person well experienced in the affairs of local authorities, and my informant anticipates that the situation which will arise on the passage of this Bill will be in the nature of a struggle between the existing maternity and child welfare services and the existing education authorities, each anxious, if I may so express it, to "muscle in" on the new territory of the children's committee. I put it to your Lordships, for your consideration, whether the children's side of local government will not require all the protection that the law can give it. I feel that the Home Secretary himself would very much regret it if he were bombarded

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with requests from all sides to make the exceptions for which he asks power.
As regards the inspection of homes, under Clause 27, there is a proviso which enables the Home Secretary to exempt certain homes from inspection. That is really contrary to the recommendations of the Curtis Committee, and I think that it would be advisable to challenge that proviso on the Committee stage. Surely, no one wants to create a privileged class of home which is excepted from that inspection which is so necessary and generally welcomed by all respectable voluntary organizations. Much has been said of the time that must elapse before this Bill can be of real benefit to a great number of children. It will take an immense time before the many buildings that are required can be erected. I can only hope that the Home Office will receive a large measure of priority for that purpose. I am asked by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children to stress the great importance of giving a wide measure of priority to the provision of places of safety to which children may be committed by children's courts. It is not wholly satisfactory that remand homes should be used for this purpose.
Finally, I would comment briefly upon the exceedingly powerful and valuable speech of my noble friend Lord Fever-sham, with which I am in a great measure of agreement. If I do so, it is only to suggest that there lies within the hands of local authorities a power which would, I believe, do much to maintain family life. It is a thing which need not be left to our children's children; it is comparatively simple, and well within the powers already possessed. I refer to the power given to the local education authorities under the 1944 Act to maintain children in boarding schools. The Curtis Committee have commented on the point that it would be very much easier to obtain good foster-homes if the foster-parents could be given to understand that, for the greater part of the year, those children who were old enough would be in boarding schools. I think that is a point which need only be mentioned to obtain general agreement.
I would carry that a little further if I may. The strain of family life, especially the strain of family life in a small house where there is a big family, must necessarily be very great. There are a great
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number of families who need some relief from that strain. After all, most of your Lordships have known the case of a turbulent little boy of eight or nine years of age, living at home, unhappy himself, because he has not the scope for his energies, and reducing his mother to a nervous wreck. Have not your Lordships often given the advice that it is time that that little boy went off to a boarding school, where he will be much happier after the first day or two of home-sickness, and from which he will return to be warmly welcomed in the holidays? If I am a democrat, I hope that I am a true one, and I believe in levelling up and in giving to all the advantages of boarding school education which wealthier people now enjoy. I very much hope that local education authorities will do what is immediately in their power to relieve the strain on very many homes by implementing the provisions of the 1944 Act to send these children to boarding schools. I much regret that so many local education authorities—including, I am afraid, the greatest of all, London—have taken so negative a view of their powers under that Act.
5.48 p.m.
THE EARL OF SCARBROUGH: My Lords, I can claim no great experience in the problems with which this Bill deals—that is to say, the care of children deprived of normal home life. My experience, such as it is, is limited to one particular form—namely, the emigration of children to the Dominions. That subject has its place in this Bill, and I would like to say a word about it in a moment. It seems to me that the problems which confront those who have to deal with the emigration of children are very similar to the problems facing those many people responsible for the care of the children who remain in this country. Therefore, perhaps I may venture a few observations on the main provisions of the Bill. My observations will be curtailed because a good many of them have already been taken by previous speakers.
The main point about this Bill, as it appears to me, is that it marks the emergence in statutory form of new standards of child care, and makes an attempt to provide a framework upon which those standards can be developed. In that main purpose I have no doubt that it

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will be warmly welcomed, and not least by those persons who have devoted their lives to the care of these children, many of whom have been reaching out towards these newer standards for some time. In fact, I expect it is true to say that for some local authorities and for some voluntary organizations this Bill will not make a great deal of difference, because some of them will already have attained those standards which the Curtis Committee have advocated and which this Bill seeks to set up. But for others, of course, this Bill will assist them, and, I hope, prod them to reach those higher standards.
As for the details of the Bill, I was struck as I read the Curtis Report by the complexity of this subject. So many Government Departments have a finger in the pie. By so many avenues do these children come within this fold. There are different methods of caring for them, and for each of those methods there are innumerable and very exacting problems to be dealt with. All those features present us with an extremely complicated problem, and I have no doubt that the provisions of the Bill will go some way to simplify the problem and to make things easier. But I find myself wholly in agreement with some observations which fell from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack when he said—I paraphrase his words—that it was not legislation nor regulations which would achieve what we all desire out of this. Bill. The really vital thing, if these objects are to be achieved, is the quality of the persons who will be engaged in this work, not only the staffs who will be in daily contact with the children but the people on the committees, whether of local authorities or of voluntary organizations. I agree entirely that the really successful people who deal with these problems are those who have a calling for it, and not those who look upon it merely as an occupation. I do not think it is going to be very easy to find sufficient numbers of people who will have that calling.
In the Curtis Report there is sufficient stress on this difficulty of finding suitable staff. We find it in such phrases as shortage of the right kind of staff" and "unsuitability of the staff." It is not going to be easy to remedy that defect. A great deal depends upon the members of
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the committees of local authorities and of voluntary organizations, for on them, I imagine, will fall the all-important task of choosing the members of these new staffs which will be set up. I would like to mention one other point concerning staffs. It was mentioned by the right reverend Prelate, and concerns these children's officers, who will be appointed by the local authorities. I hope that they will be given an adequate clerical establishment to deal with the large amount of correspondence involved, to enable the children's officer to move about all over the local authority's area.
The only other point I wish to touch upon in the general provisions of the Bill concerns the problem of boarding out. I agree with the views of the Curtis Committee up to a point, that at its best this is far and away the best method of caring for these children. But I think that "at its best" is a very important qualification. Once you begin to get below the best, you are exposing the child to very serious dangers. I have a certain amount of apprehension that the emphasis that the Curtis Committee place on these new committees' taking a great deal of trouble to find more people to take children who are boarded out will lead to families who are not of the best being chosen for boarding out. I do not place very great hopes on a sufficient number of the right type of families being found; and I would like to support that contention by just a few figures which come from the county authority of the West Riding of Yorkshire.
At the end of 1944, at the suggestion of the Ministry of Health, an attempt was made to find out how many of the most suitable persons who had received billeted children during the war would be willing to continue receiving these deprived children in peace time. A total of 284 persons were selected as being suitable for this canvass, and every one of them was visited individually. Over 220 refused to go on with it. In the end, only ten out of those 284 are actually now carrying on. Subsequently, advertisements were inserted in the Press to try to get more people to take these children for boarding-out purposes. Only thirteen applications were received, and only four of them were considered suitable. My contention, therefore, is that it would be unwise to place too high hopes on finding

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a large number of suitable families to receive boarded-out children.
I should like to turn for a few minutes to the question of the emigration of children to the Dominions as one form of care. Perhaps I ought to say that for some considerable time I have been connected with one of the voluntary societies which goes in for the migration of children—namely, the Fairbridge Society; and that for the two months at the end of last year I absented myself from your Lordships' House in order to go to Australia on its business. Under the provisions of this Bill, the voluntary societies who go in for the migration of children will be subjected to regulations to be made by the Secretary of State for Home Affairs. Speaking for myself, I can see no objection in principle to that: on the contrary I should warmly welcome it. So far as I know, most voluntary societies of that kind would take the same view, and for this special reason: people sometimes talk rather too easily about child migration; they know of some successful instances, and they would like to see them multiplied a hundredfold. Some even go so far as to press for the mass migration of children.
I am quite convinced that mass migration of children is quite out of the question, and that it can be carried out on only a very limited scale, because if there is one type of care for deprived children which more than any other requires the greatest attention to the individual child, it is this migration of children to the Dominions. In my view, this form of care will always be limited in numbers. I would therefore welcome the regulations governing the migration of children, if only to prevent the possibility of enthusiastic persons entering upon a field of which they have not had great experience. Of course", one would like to know what will be the contents of the regulations which may be made. I suspect that one may find a clue in one of the observations of the Curtis Committee. They expressed a view, with which I entirely agree, that, if children are emigrated to the Dominions, care should be taken to see that they are given at least the same sort of care and attention as would be provided for them if they remained in this country.
Basing myself upon that view, I should like to make just a few brief suggestions as to what these regulations might contain. In the first place, I should like to
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see them contain a provision that any voluntary society which sent children to the Dominions should retain a continuing responsibility for them when they had gone overseas and for so long as they remained under a grown-up age. I think it would be disastrous if any voluntary society were allowed to get into the position of being a mere recruiting agent for children, and for handing them over to someone else in the Dominions over whom the parent society would have no control or for whom it would have no responsibility. For that reason, I would place first in importance insistence that the parent society in this country should continue to have a continuing responsibility when the child goes overseas.
Next in importance I should like to see a provision in the regulations that every possible endeavour should be made to give each one of the children emigrating abroad an education and opportunity to follow its bent. In years gone by, some of the Dominions were, for very good reasons, prepared to take children only if they were going to be trained as domestic servants or as farm labourers. But those days are gone, and I believe that, at any rate in Australia and in Canada, there would be just as warm a welcome for a provision of the kind I have mentioned as there would be in this country. Another item which I hope will figure in these regulations is that great attention should be paid to after care. After care may be of importance to these children in this country; it is doubly important in a country like Australia, where children go for employment in sparsely settled districts. Finally, I would like to see in the regulations some limitation on the numbers who would be in any one farm, school or home, because I believe that experience has shown, both in this country and overseas, that if too many children are put in one place it renders the head of the school, for instance, incapable of giving personal attention to each child. Therefore, I hope that some limiting provision will be contained in these regulations.
There is one further point about these regulations to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. The regulations are to be made by the Home Office. Admirable as the Home Office are, I think I am right in saying that they do not as a rule have to deal with Dominion

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Governments, whereas the Commonwealth Relations Department are continually dealing with Dominion Governments. I expect, and I take it as a foregone conclusion, that the regulations would not be finally drawn up until there had been very careful consultation with the Commonwealth Relations Department; because although I believe that the authorities in the Dominions would be very ready to agree to regulations which may be made under this Act, a great deal does depend upon how they are presented to authorities overseas. The Commonwealth Relations Department are naturally more experienced in this matter than the Home Office could be, so I hope and expect that the consultation upon this subject of regulations for the voluntary society dealing with emigration will be constant.
I join in the general welcome which your Lordships are giving to this Bill. More than anything else, I hope that the awakened interest which the Curtis and the Clyde Reports have aroused, and which perhaps the passage of this Bill through Parliament will maintain, will lead to more people finding that they have a calling to engage in this work, and that, therefore, the thing which matters most—finding people of the right quality to do this work—will be forthcoming as a result of this Bill.
6.8 p.m.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, the reason for my intervention now is that I have lived with this problem for many years of my life. As a matter of fact, I have lived in the same street with it, if I may put it that way. It is seventy-one years this week since I escaped by the skin of my teeth (only I had not got any!) from going to what the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, calls the workhouse, but which we called the Bastille. It was intended that I should be shipped off, but my mother—I hope your Lordships will permit this personal note—refused to allow me to go, and I was looked after by kindly neighbours until she could get out of bed a:: ter the traditional ten days in order to go back to her looms. She used to feed me then at six o'clock in the morning before going to the mill. Then she would come back to breakfast and come home again to lunch.
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I mention this matter because no sooner could I think for myself than I began to take an intimate interest in this problem. When I reached the age of adolescence, I visited the Bastille, and I saw fifty or sixty children herded together in what was called a ward. They were looked after by elderly inmates. The walls were whitewashed, or rather lime-washed, a dirty dark blue. I resolved that, if ever I had the opportunity—which I did have as a local administrator—I would have a better colour scheme, not only in our public institutions but also in our day schools. I personally am to-day most grateful that we have the opportunity to discuss this Bill. I am most grateful to the Curtis Committee. At the same time, I would say in passing, I am rather proud that one of my own Members, the Member for North Bradford, has spent part of her leisure time gladly in helping Miss Curtis and her colleagues to prepare their Report.
I would remind your Lordships that the cause of the Curtis Report was a glaring example of two boys being farmed out to what was supposed to be a foster-mother'. Certainly, the old system of child welfare, especially for abnormal children, was spotlighted. But I would remind your Lordships that even the much maligned Board of Guardians tried to do something. I would point out that in 1897 my old Board of Guardians, as it was then called, decided that they would abolish the herding together of children. They were able to acquire a detached house with grounds, and they made a start with children three years of age and a little older. They then went on to acquire what they called scattered homes, and appointed house mothers for only eight children.
I believe that was a great advance, and it was started over fifty years ago. It was referred to again in 1910, when that gracious lady, Mrs. Beatrice 'Webb, blazed the trail in the Poor Law Commission. I noticed in the evidence that another lady, Mrs. Greenlees, paid a testimonial to the good work which was being done in Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield. I am rather proud that to-day we have these homes. We collect the children, and they are screened so that we do not have misfits. Naturally, we also have a nursery for children who are taken from a few days old up to the age of three. Therefore, I want to touch on the positive side and show that something has been done,

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although I quite agree that much more must be done. Most of these children come from bad home surroundings, but there are abnormal children, mentally defective children, and so on, who come from homes that are good and who are under the education authority. I am proud that my authority was able to raise a memorial years ago to the late Margaret MacMillan, by having such a school built and naming it after her.
Only a few weeks ago I visited the ideal children's school in Golders Green. There I saw seventy children. They were not poor children, but children of people coming to this country—even an Ambassador's children—who had no room for them in flats or so on. This was the ideal place because there was one attendant for each three children, and that attendant was being trained to go to other parts of the country to take up work in what we call our children's homes. We do not call the heads of those homes foster-mothers; we call them the home-mother. We try to emphasize the word "home" as much as we possibly can. I agree that to-day we are going to make a much greater step forward.
When I looked at the Bill, having always associated this work with the Board of Guardians, afterwards the P.A.C. and now, of course, the Health Committee, I was a bit startled when I saw that it was going to be under the Home Office, because most of us associate the Home Office with the police and prison. But, when I pondered over it, I thought what a splendid idea it was, because some of my friends and I on our visits to our approved schools have said, especially of the junior schools, "How dreadful this is. We have had boys here for eighteen months or two years and they are now going home. What sort of a home are they going to? They will simply deteriorate once more." Knowing the splendid work the Home Office has done with the approved schools, we are now going to get, shall I say, the missing link—the whole scheme for the care of children in distress, short of a parent or parents, or with parents who refuse to look after them. So I am glad that this scheme is going to be coordinated under the Home Office.
But I hope that when the Bill goes into Committee, Clauses 38 and 39 will be carefully considered. After all, local authorities have done splendid work. I
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know the Association of Municipal Corporations—not only county boroughs, but also non-county boroughs—want to be kept in touch with this work, which will grow rapidly in the near future. Much has been said this afternoon about the human touch, and certainly when you get in a non-county borough of perhaps 20,000 inhabitants, interested men and women who are ready to work voluntarily—and one of our greatest assets in this country has been the number of voluntary workers, both on local authorities and in private bodies—I trust that the Home Office will not be allowed to crowd out the smaller authorities which have great civic pride.
I was sorry to see the word "may" in Clause 45. I have always regarded the Home Office as a mandatory authority, but Clause 45 says that the Home Office "may" pay up to 50 per cent. of the expenses to carry out the policy of this Bill. They may, or they may not; so local authorities and local committees are going to be in the position of not knowing where they are. The Home Office is going to call the tune and play the pipes, but the authorities will not know what sort of a dance they are expected to perform. I trust that Clause 45 may be looked at and that the financial clauses will be drafted in such a way that we shall know what we are to receive from the Home Office via the Treasury.
It has been said—and I can testify to this, having lived in one room up and one room down for half of my life—that the size of the home does not matter and that it is the greatness in spirit of the home that really counts. Whatever we may say, we shall not be able to conquer or solve the problem of the delinquent child by a cold code of ethics. I am not going to apologize, therefore, when I emphasize that there must be a dynamic spiritual force behind what we are trying to do; that we must always stress the value of home life; and that we must emphasize that it costs little to keep a home clean and that the failure to do so is one of the real causes of the creation of slums and of unhappiness. I am glad to have this opportunity of giving my little benediction to this Bill, and wishing it Godspeed.
6.20 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON: My Lords, the local authorities are so closely concerned

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in this Bill that it is expedient, perhaps, that I should say a few words in order to put forward their views. As the hour is late, I will confine myself mainly to doing that. I have first to express their general agreement with the Bill and their trust that it will be for the real benefit of those handicapped children with whom it deals and will provide for them the advantages of a sound home life and the affection of persons who will take a deep interest in their welfare, their careers and their future. I am sure, so far as we are concerned, that we shall do our utmost to carry out the intentions of the authors of the Bill and those of the Curtis Committee, on whose Report the Bill is so largely based. But there are certain general principles to which I desire to call attention and which seem to me to have a wider significance than the Bill itself. First, there is the degree of central control and the extent of the powers given to the Secretary of State. The local authorities can do very little without his approval, and they are thus placed in an administrative strait-jacket. The regulations under Clause 15 (4), to which the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, has already referred, and those under Clauses 19 and 21, may require the approval of the Secretary of State not only to the use of buildings for the purposes of children's homes, but to additions and alterations to buildings and to the grounds of such homes, as well as to any subsidiary building that may be placed in those grounds or gardens, and to the appointment of persons to be in charge of any such homes.
It seems to me that such detailed regulations would cause endless correspondence between officers of the local authorities and the Home Office, and would hamper and delay local authorities in the performance of their duties. So, if His Majesty's Government really want—as I believe they do—to reduce the staffs of both the local and the central authorities and to release as many persons as possible for constructive; effort in this country, they should keep down to as few as possible the number of occasions on which local authorities will have to refer to the Home Office. I suggest that the principle to be followed in such matters should be for the central authority to draw up standards and lay down general principles, and then to encourage
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and assist the local authorities in applying them in the individual circumstances with which they have to deal. But more important than the actual wording of the regulations—as I think has already been pointed out—may well be the spirit in which they are carried out.
With regard to the Advisory Council to be set up under Clause 42—to which reference has already been made—surely it should include representatives of the local authorities who have to take so large a share in the care of the children themselves. Secondly, the provisions of Clauses 38, 39 and 40—which have already been spoken of—with regard to the setting up of children's committees, the appointment of children's officers and the laying down in very considerable detail of the functions to be performed by each, seem to me in some respects to be most unnecessary and most undesirable. I believe that the more usual procedure—this, too, has already been mentioned—which was followed under the Education Act of 1944, and, I think, under the National Health Service Act of 1946 and the Fire Services Act of 1947, was for a local authority to make their own proposals and submit their own scheme showing how they proposed to carry out the duties allotted to them under any of these Acts. Then, when approval had once been given, they were entirely free to arrange the work of their own committees and their own officers. Surely they should be treated as trusted partners in this great project for the welfare of children. I fully appreciate that there are special reasons—as set out in the Curtis Report—why separate committees and special officers should be appointed to deal with the care of children. As has been pointed out, that is to avoid these duties falling between different committees or different local authorities—a situation which caused so many regrettable incidents in the past, which called for the Curtis Report and which was, indeed, the main reason for this Bill. The point I want to make clear is that these circumstances are quite exceptional and should not be taken as a precedent. I hope that some of the detailed provisions of these clauses may perhaps be modified at a later stage.
Again there is the matter of the wording of Clause 45 of which the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, has spoken—regarding

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the grants. It seems most unsatisfactory that the amount should be unspecified and left entirely to the discretion of the Secretary of State. It is suggested that these amounts should be fixed in the Bill itself or by the provisions of Parliament. The granting of a power whereby the Secretary of State may deduct from grants to local authorities 50 per cent. of the expenditure incurred by him in grants for training in child welfare under Clause 43, or to voluntary organizations under Clause 44, is, I believe, wholly without precedent. Surely representatives of the local authorities should be consulted regarding the payments which are to be made at their expense, and these training services should be regarded as a sort of joint venture upon which they should all be consulted and in which they should all take a share.
Finally, as has been pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, it is urged that there should be some provision for delegation of the duties under this Bill to non-county boroughs and to other local councils. It is most important that we should take the fullest advantage of local interest and local knowedge in dealing with these matters, and some of the duties under the Public Health Acts and the Children and Young Persons Acts, which now come under this Bill, were in the past undertaken by those authorities. No doubt, as has been indicated, there will be a good many detailed points to be raised at a later stage of our consideration of this measure. They are points which, I believe, should be raised in this House, which is an eminently suitable body for that purpose. One looks forward to this Bill, before it leaves your Lordships' House, being made even more efficient and more workable than it is at the present time.
6.30 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I do not wish to take up much of your time at this late hour by welcoming the Bill. I am sure that in many ways it is an admirable Bill which will serve to right a very great wrong that has existed in the past. But there are one or two points about which I would like to speak—points concerning the general principle behind the Bill. It seems to me that this measure will tend to increase the difference in the relations between the unfortunate children concerned and their contemporaries who are
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leading normal lives, because a separate administrative machine is to be set up to deal with one particular type of child, whereas children in happier circumstances will be dealt with by existing machinery. Children living under normal conditions are the responsibility, first, of the maternal and child welfare committee of the local authority, and, later, of the education committee. I wonder whether it would be possible, when we go into the Bill in more detail, to see that the children's committees are so linked with the existing committees as to be more or less a branch of them, rather than a separate committee. I think that may be possible under the Bill as it stands, seeing that in Clause 12 (2) the local authority are encouraged to make such use of the facilities and services available for children in the care of parents as appears to the local authority reasonable. That means these children will be able to attend the maternity and child welfare clinics, and any other general service provided by the local authority, and children's committees will not be engaged in making a service by themselves.
The next point I want to raise is that the children's committee are to take care of the rest of the unfortunate collection of children who have been, through no fault of their own—perhaps because of unsatisfactory homes, bad parents or loss of parents—unable to live a normal home life. Among these are to be children from remand homes and approved schools. Those of us who know anything about remand homes and approved schools know what extremely good work they do and that the vast majority of children have gone into these homes through no fault of their own. But in the eyes of a large number of the public, the remand home is associated with some kind of crime, some kind of punishment, and I feel that it will make the position of these children possibly more difficult, more complicated, more unfortunate, if they are to be classed together under the same part of the authority which deals with children from approved schools and remand homes. I do not know whether it is possible to make any provision for this, but I think it is a real danger.
I am very pleased to see in the Bill that local authorities are to be encouraged to place children in a series of homes

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and grouped together in fairly small communities. This is very important. These children should be kept in fairly small groups, nine or ten at the outside, of both sexes and of all ages, so that they may get a simulacrum of normal family life. It is more fitting that young people of all ages can come into these groups, from young children in arms to the eldest of sixteen. I think that is better for the young children. At present there is a strong tendency to aggregate them in nursery accommodation from which they are moved at the age of two and a half or three years. That, from a medical point of view, is not wise, because where there is a collection of from forty to fifty children, extremely susceptible to infection, they have to be kept together very carefully. There are a large number of children's infections—in summer, gastric intestinal attacks, and in winter, chills and pneumonia—which are extremely dangerous. Your Lordships will have seen in the papers accounts of a number of homes which have had to be closed because a number of children died. I think these deaths could have been avoided if the children had not been collected together in large numbers. I hope, when the Bill is being discussed, that it may be possible to come to some arrangement about that and not to encourage authorities to establish residential nurseries. I am also delighted to see that the voluntary homes and societies are to be recognized. They have done a great and good work in the past. Nobody will object to them being subject to inspection. That seems to be absolutely essential, where the welfare of children is concerned.
I should like to ask one question about emigration. I think no child should be advised or compelled to emigrate unless the advice of the children's officer has been first asked. His advice should not only be asked; it should be taken. It is simple to have people in an advisory capacity, but in many cases there is no obligation on the person seeking advice to take it. No child should be asked to emigrate unless it is thought by everybody concerned that he is a fit person; and if a family wish to emigrate there should be no question of their being separated. It is extremely important that they should be kept together. Going back to what I said about residential homes,
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I think there again it is important that the family should never be separated. That should be a cardinal point of the Bill. When these children are being trained in residential schools, they should be trained to take up some occupation. One of the saddest parts of the Curtis Report is that in which visitors say how quiet and depressed the older children are because they have nothing to do and are not being trained. For instance, girls are being trained merely to be domestic servants. I admit that domestic servants are very valuable people, but some girls do not take to that form of service, and there is no reason why a girl should be compelled to do that because she is under the care of the local authority. I welcome this Bill. It is important that the lives of these children should be made as normal as possible by bringing them into every activity that normal children have.
6.38 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I think it would be true to say that whenever the subject of children and young persons comes up for discussion in your Lordships' House, a keen and lively interest is invariably displayed by noble Lords who speak with great knowledge on all and every aspect of child welfare, It seemed to me that in the course of the afternoon noble Lords in all parts of the House warmly welcomed the Bill which the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, introduced. I would add my welcome to the measure and also the hope that in view of the vast number of important detailed Committee points which have been made, the Government will give perhaps a little longer consideration before we reach the next stage of the Bill. That at any rate will give your Lordships interested in this measure some time to consider the Amendments which we intend to put on the Paper. It will also give the Government a little longer time to digest the remarks which have been made this afternoon. As was said by my noble friend Lord Llewellin, the Committee which were presided over by Miss Curtis were appointed during the lifetime of the Coalition Government, and as Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department at that time I strongly supported the decision of the Lord President of the Council, when he was Home Secretary, to set up such a Committee. Accordingly, I feel a close and personal

973
relationship to the Bill which we are now discussing.
My remarks at this late hour will be very brief, and I wish to deal more with matters of administration than with any detailed criticism of the Bill. The Bill amends a good deal of the principal Act—that is, the 1933 Act—and should provide, as I read it, a wider and more comprehensive service for children who are deprived of a normal home life. I attach considerable importance for the full development of the scheme as outlined in the Bill, to the fact that, except in certain minor instances, the Home Secretary will henceforth be the Minister who is primarily responsible for child welfare. The existing law, except where interdepartmental arrangements have been made otherwise, provides that the safeguarding and looking after of these children is undertaken by no less than six different Government Departments. That procedure, certainly in the days when I was at the Home Office, caused a good deal of overlapping and a vast waste of time. We all know that for good administrative control the division of ministerial responsibilities for similar classes of work ought, whenever possible, to be avoided.
Now that it is intended to transfer to one Minister the duties which are set out in this Bill, and the duties under the Act of 1933 which will still remain, I believe the whole problem of the care of homeless children will be much simplified. In common with other noble Lords I therefore attach considerable importance to the appointment of the Advisory Council of Child Care. A body of this nature can far more easily advise a Minister than a number of Ministries which are all performing the same class of work but in different ways. Indeed, whether it concerns the neglected or the homeless child, or the child suffering from one form or another of cruelty, or the question of juvenile delinquency, the Minister can be advised by those who are most competent to judge. And I venture to think that their judgment will not infrequently broaden his mind and improve many of his ideas. I wonder if the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, can give us some further information about the composition of this Council. I believe it is important that the numbers should be limited, so that the Council does not become unwieldy or top-heavy; but, at the same
974
time, those associations which we know so well, many of which were examined by the Curtis Committee, should be well represented on that Council. I wonder whether it might be possible for some annual report to be made to Parliament on the proposals which this Advisory Council put forward to the Home Secretary. I would not ask the noble Lord to give me a reply to that question now, but perhaps he will consider it between now and the Committee stage of the Bill.
It is not infrequently suggested—I think I heard it mentioned this afternoon by the right reverend Prelate—that our general approach to the subject of homeless children in the past has been very casual. It is sometimes said that Government Departments and local authorities have been carefree in the operation and fulfilment of their tasks under the 1933 Act. I always think that it is necessary, in obtaining a balanced view, to remember that the Act of 1933 brought some very desirable and commendable changes of outlook and approach to this whole subject. But it has been in operation for a period of only fourteen years, during seven of which, as we all know, we have been engaged in a struggle for survival. Government Departments, local authorities, and voluntary institutions have all been labouring under acute difficulty. Some homes and institutions were damaged, and others were destroyed by enemy action; and the difficulty of obtaining competent staff, or indeed any staff at all, has added vastly to their burden. I understand from inquiries I have made that since the end of the war the position in regard to staffs has somewhat eased, but the shortage is still very severe. Far more hands—or should I say bodies?—are now needed for the proper working of all the details under the 1933 Act alone, before we even consider the new proposals which are outlined in this admirable Bill.
Whilst I welcome the duty which the Bill places on local authorities to receive children into their care, I beg His Majesty's Government not to allow local authorities to put the cart before the horse. It is, in my judgment—I hope the noble Lord will agree with me—utterly futile to buy and equip a home, however luxurious it may be, unless you have sufficient trained staff to run it. To rebuild a child's shattered early life, and

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to arrest the disintegrating process which began at home, can be achieved only by those men and women who are well versed in the work of child welfare. It is not easy—it never has been easy—to find the right people for this highly skilled task, and the proper selection of candidates, as I see it, is even more important than their subsequent training. If any of them should lack those human instincts and qualifications so necessary for this work, then no amount of training can redeem that omission, and it is quite certain that no Act of Parliament can instil those instincts and qualifications.
The same argument applies, I believe with even more force, to the appointment of the children's officer who, as the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack said, will in most cases be a woman. Upon her shoulders will rest the foundation and the structure of the whole of the children's committee, and she must, by her skill and her aptitude, be the sympathetic interpreter of official decrees and rulings. In addition, she must be the principal person who, at any hour of the day or night, can be called upon to give helpful advice and useful assistance to those who stand in need of it. In subsection (6) of Clause 40 of the Bill the remuneration and tenure of office of these children's officers are safeguarded. The noble Lord will know, as I do, that most local government employees generally continue to hold their employment until they reach the age of sixty-five. I cannot really believe that it is the intention of the Government that these children's officers should retain their posts until they reach, shall I say, that semi-advanced age, and I should like the noble Lord, if he can, to give me some indication of the age at which the children's officer will be expected to resign her position or be transferred to another post.
In addition to the other obligations which have been imposed upon the local authority, I was very glad to observe that: there was one to board out children whenever possible. My noble friend Lord Scarbrough referred to the difficulty of finding good foster-parents, and I need not emphasize again the views which he expressed. I wholeheartedly concur with him, and I have seen from personal experience that that is perfectly true. Indeed, it is of the utmost difficulty to find
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the right and good foster home into which one of these children can be put, having regard to the child's age, character and history. The difficulty of finding these foster homes will, I suppose, fall in the main upon the children's officer and will be another burden which she must carry. I would only mention in passing that I hope the Statutory Orders and Regulations which were made under the Act of 1943, and which can be made under Clause 14 of this Bill, will be just as strict and just as severe as the original Act, for we require no more scandals to-day.
I come finally to the question of voluntary homes. Here, in common with the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, I welcome the: extension of the Bill to include in its scope those homes supported wholly or partially by endowments. I am perfectly certain that such homes will not object to being included in the Bill. Indeed, in my days at the Home Office, some of the largest: welcomed the Government inspectors and indeed profited by their advice. The converse was equally true: many new methods and useful experiments which were operating, or did operate, in local government institutions, were in many cases begun at a voluntary home. I am a little unhappy that there should be no appeal to any competent authority if the Home Secretary declines to register or decides to close any voluntary home. I believe it is wrong for a Minister of the Crown—in this case the Home Secretary—to be both the judge and the jury in his own cause, and more especially in cases where hundreds of people—it may be one or two thousand—have been interested by their donations and subscriptions in the proper conduct and running of the institution. In any event, if the Home Secretary does insist upon holding these powers, then I feel that he should give more information to Parliament when he has exercised them in the manner which I have described.
Under Clause 30 of the Bill, the Home Secretary can make regulations as to the conduct of voluntary homes, and I presume, as was said by other noble Lords, that it is the intention that the less good homes shall be brought up in standard to the better homes. Indeed, no one can object to that provision. But I wonder if his powers are sufficient in all cases. I want here to quote to your Lordships a case which for a long time has caused me considerable concern—I refer boldly

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to the position of the Foundling Hospital. I think I am correct in saying that under the Royal Charter under which it functions, every member of the Privy Council is automatically a Governor of that Hospital. The qualification of a child's entry into the Foundling Hospital is that he must be illegitimate, and once a child has been in that Hospital the fact of his illegitimacy is known for ever to the world. Once the child has been placed in the care of the Governors, the mother is never permitted to see it; in fact there is a complete parting of the ways. In order finally to break any link which there may be between the mother and the child, the child is always given a new surname, and very often a new Christian name, and it is frequently said that on admission to the Foundling Hospital the child is re-baptised. In any event, the child is given a special birth certificate in his or her new name, and upon that birth certificate appears the name of the institution.
Now the child, having been once given this substitute birth certificate, cannot ever obtain a new and shortened certificate such as was made possible by the passing of the Act of Parliament which your Lordships recently approved and which was meant to conceal the fact of illegitimacy. That fact alone, as the House will see, makes it difficult for any future identification of the parent by the child and of the child by the parent. I have only to-day received a letter dealing with a child who was put into the Foundling Hospital at an early age of its existence. The mother is now happily married with a good husband, and she is anxious to have the child back in her care. But even now the governing body of the Foundling Hospital decline to allow the mother to see the child, and in all their dealings they refer to the child as a male or female child, X, Y or Z. I frankly admit that for a long time the procedure adopted at that Hospital has caused me very serious concern. The scheme which I have outlined is, to say the least, medieval or even barbaric, and I hope—I am not asking for a reply now—that the noble Lord will see whether the powers which the Home Secretary has under this particular clause can be exercised in the case of the Foundling Hospital. Let the noble Lord remember that a local authority is under an obligation to keep the parent in touch with the child. For the life of me, I am unable to see why
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exactly the same thing should not happen in the case of the Foundling Hospital.
There are a number of other points upon which I should have liked to obtain further enlightenment, but the time is getting on and the noble Lord has many questions to answer. I hope that when this Bill becomes an Act the Secretary of State will use his powers carefully and discreetly when he is dealing with local authorities. The man on the spot is, in all cases, the best person to undertake the day-to-day management of the homes which are to be set up under the terms of the Bill. And whilst I am quite certain that some powers must rest with the Home Secretary at the centre, it is a matter for consideration—and perhaps for discussion on the next stage of the Bill—whether the powers which he possesses are too severe for amicable relations between the centre and the provinces. I have said quite sufficient on this Bill, which I feel will do a power of good to those who are in any way interested in or concerned with the homeless child, or the child in need of care and attention. I welcome the Bill, but I hope that between now and the next stage the Government will carefully consider all the points which have been made to-day and will give us a little longer time than usual before we reach that next stage.
7.1 p.m.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, this has been a long and very important debate. It has now gone on for four and a half hours and at this late hour I feel sure your Lordships will forgive me if I do not go into a detailed reply to the multitude of points that have been raised, much as I should have liked to deal with some of them. A Bill of this character takes one's mind back. Particularly did the speech which the noble Earl, Lord Munster, has made, take my mind back to my first election to a local authority, well over forty years ago. I was elected from that local authority to a truant school committee, where the first discovery I made was that they had had twelve cooks in twelve months. It was quite a recognized thing that one cook stayed only one month—and most of them would have stayed only one week if they had been able to get away. I remember the youthful enthusiasm I had. Then I found myself appointed a member of a committee before which several poor boys

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were dragged up every week by the Governors, who waited to know why the boys had been so misguided as to try to escape from this "very kind home" that had been given to them.
A multitude of points have been raised, and I can promise that every opportunity will be given to noble Lords between now and. the next stage. I will do my best to see whether the period before that stage can be extended, and I will see that noble Lords have every opportunity of private discussion and consultation. The Government bring this Bill forward not as a last word, but as an invitation to your Lordships to co-operate with them in making it a better Bill than it is. Just before I came into your Lordships' House this afternoon someone drew my attention to an alleged poem that had appeared in a weekly magazine, apparently written by someone who anticipated what would happen in this debate. I will weary your Lordships with only one verse of this poem—or doggerel:
"The children's homes of England, how scandalous they were,
How sure to warp and undermine the infant character,
Now more enlightened counsels will end this ancient ill,
And England gives approval to the Homeless Children's Bill."
I think that is a very fair summary of the discussion that has taken place.
I cannot attempt, as I have already indicated, to cover the whole ground raised this afternoon. The Bill has had an excellent reception, and it can be said that a good job of work has at least been begun in connexion with this problem. As the discussion has shown, there are still a number of minor points that will require further discussion, elucidation and, possibly, amendment. Points raised by noble Lords will be fully considered by the Government, before and during the next stage. This Bill comes before your Lordships as a contribution towards the solution of an urgent problem and as an invitation to your Lordships to co-operate in improving the situation. Many suggestions have been made in that direction and I promise careful consideration to all of them.
The noble Lord, Lord Beveridge—if he will forgive my fastening on him and ignoring others—together with the noble Ea:: l, Lord Feversham, raised many
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points. I am sure he will forgive me if I do not deal with them to-night; he will not, I am sure, expect me to deal with them now. Most of them are points that cannot be answered off-hand. But I will give my careful consideration to the points and will do my best to provide the information for which the noble Lord asks. He raised one very pertinent question, whether there will be one children's committee or three. The short answer is that the education and maternity and child welfare committees of the local authorities will continue in their own spheres. The children's committee will take the part of the parent, so far as possible. The committee will deal with all the difficulties in the lives of deprived children and will use the facilities at present available through the local authorities—health, education and other services—to adjust the position.
I gather from the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, that in co-operation with the noble Earl, Lord Feversham, some Amendment will probably appear on the Order Paper; therefore no good can be done by my attempting to discuss the matter further at this point.
LORD BEVERIDGE: Would the noble Lord allow me just to put one point? It is the question of the interpretation of Clause 1. Are the 60,000 children in voluntary homes, if the Bill passes as it now stands, to be in the care of the local, authority or not? Are they children with guardians or not? If, after taking advice from the people who have drafted the Bill, it were possible for the Government to give us their opinion upon the meaning of the Bill on that point, it would help us greatly in drafting Amendments. I am not asking the noble Lord to answer now.
LORD MORRISON: I will certainly see that all the information I can give will be given to the noble Lord in plenty of time for him to consider and put down Amendments.
LORD BEVERIDGE: I am most grateful.
LORD MORRISON: The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, in opening this debate said (and I regret that he did say it!) that in winding up I would state the position of Scotland in regard to this Bill. If the noble and

981
learned Viscount had not made that unfortunate remark, I was hoping that I should be able to let your Lordships get away, for you have been here a very long time. But having said that, I must add that if I were to break my promise to Scotland I should have rather a bad time in future. But I promise your Lordships that the statement I have to make in regard to Scotland's position under this Bill will be a very brief one—always provided that I can find it!
LORD BEVERIDGE: Would it not be briefer if you could not find it?
LORD MORRISON: I have abbreviated it to such an extent that it has completely disappeared!. The House is already aware that, at the same time as the Curtis Committee were appointed, a similar Committee for Scotland were set up under the chairmanship of Mr. J. L. Clyde, K.C. The recommendations from the Scottish Committee follow substantially the same lines as those of the Curtis Committee, and in the Bill which we are now considering effect is given to practically all the recommendations which require legislation. I would also add that, as recommended by the Committee, the general responsibility for the care of children deprived of a normal home fife has already, by administrative action, been concentrated in the hands of a single Department, the Scottish Home Department. The uniform set of regulations and single staff of inspectors which the Committee desired have thereby been secured. The local authorities under the Bill will be the county councils and town councils of large burghs. These authorities are to exercise their functions through a children's committee unless the Secretary of State is satisfied in special circumstances that they can do so better without appointing such a committee.
If the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, will allow me to say so, I am afraid that I cannot quite agree with him with regard to the difficulty about the proposed committees. I regard that as one of the most important parts of the Bill. I think that the local councillors and those who are co-opted on to these children's committees will have to deal with something for which there has been a very great need—certainly in every local authority on which I have served. They have an important problem which they can tackle and with
982
which they can get to close quarters. Those who have been on local authorities for a long time know that frequently there is a woman of not very high education, a motherly sort of woman, who has been elected to a local authority. She is largely at sea with figures and accounts and things like that; she is not interested in those things; but give her a problem like this, looking after homeless and motherless children, and she will take a very keen interest. I think that from that point of view the noble Lord will find, as I would have said to the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, had he been able to remain in your Lordships' House, that the children's committee will have a very important task to perform. I am sure that noble Lords will forgive me for departing from Scotland for those few sentences.
Local authorities in Scotland will also be required to appoint a children's officer and any staff necessary for his or her assistance. It will be open to local authorities, with the approval of the Secretary of State, to appoint the same person to be children's officer for more than one area to meet those cases where the volume of work is insufficient to justify the employment of an officer of sufficient standing. May I add, finally, that one of the fundamental provisions in this Bill is new in Scotland, though not in England? That is the provision in Clause 2 enabling a local authority to assume parental rights over children who have no parent or guardian, have been abandoned by their parent or guardian, or have a parent or guardian who is incapable of caring for them by reason of some permanent disability or is of such habits or mode of life as to be unfit to have the care of them. In Scotland, as in England, the Bill should enable a great advance to be made in securing the welfare of children who require special provision for their care.
I am sure that at this late hour your Lordships will not desire me to say anything further, particularly as the Bill has had such an excellent reception from all members of the House. Most of the points are Committee points, which can be dealt with again in Committee. There have been many excellent suggestions put forward. I think that this has been one of the most interesting debates I have listened to in this House. I would like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate for the useful contributions which they have made. Their

983
suggestions will receive the close consideration of the Government. I. will endeavour to ensure what the noble Earl, Lord Munster, has asked me, that a somewhat longer time should elapse before we undertake the Committee stage. I am perfectly sure that this will be another Bill which will leave this House in an even better form than that in which it entered it. I should like to thank all those who have contributed to the debate.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

OVERSEAS RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, before we adjourn, may I say that as first business to-morrow we shall pay tribute to the late Viscount Sankey?

BEVERLEY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
CROMER URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
CUMBERLAND COUNTY COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
PEABODY DONATION FUND BILL. [H.L.]
SALFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WEST RIDING COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: the Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

SUMMER TIME ORDER, 1948.
Draft Order in Council to be made under the Summer Time Act, 1947:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

GOOLE GAS ORDER, 1947;
CRACOE, HEBDEN AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1947;
BRIGHTON CORPORATION ACT, 1931, MODIFICATION ORDER, 1947;
CENTRAL ELECTRICITY BOARD (KEADBY GENERATING STATION LANDS) ORDER, 1947.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petitions have been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (SCOTLAND) (SUPERANNUATION) REGULATIONS, 1948.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they have examined the Special Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House:
That in their opinion the Order raises questions of policy and principle which have been accepted already by the House when passing the National Health Service (Scotland) Act, 1947, under which the Order is submitted for approval:
That the Order is founded on precedent inasmuch as similar Regulations made under the National Health Service Act, 1946, have been approved by Parliament:
That in the opinion of the Committee the Order cannot be passed by the House without special attention, but that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution to approve the said Order; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at: seventeen minutes past seven o'clock.