Sitting of 6 December 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SIAM

    Army (Re-equipment)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the agreement reached with the Government of Siam with regard to assistance given by His Majesty's Government in the re-equipping of the Siamese Army.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): No such agreement has been reached by His Majesty's Government with the Government of Siam.
    Mr. Gammans: Has any application been made by the Government of Siam for the kind of assistance I have mentioned in my Question?
    Mr. Mayhew: My right hon. Friend is considering some recommendations he has received from our Ambassador in Bangkok.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Will the hon. Gentleman draw the attention of his right hon. Friend to the fact that everyone on this side of the House wants to see the end of this bolstering up of primitive, feudal, reactionary regimes?

    Rice (Export Allocations)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what agreement has been made with the Government of Siam for the export of rice to British territories in S.E. Asia.
    Mr. Mayhew: No such agreement has been made, but the United Kingdom and Siam are both members of the International Emergency Food Committee, to which Siam makes her exportable surplus of rice available for allocation. His Majesty's Government arrange to purchase from Siam whatever is allocated by the I.E.F.C. to British territories in South-East Asia.
    Mr. Gammans: In view of the virtual breakdown of Government in Burma, and the improbability of South-East Asia being able to get anything like the amount of rice they hope to get, will the Government see if any further rice can be obtained from Siam, otherwise there will be a serious shortage of food in Malaya and other parts of South-East Asia?
    Mr. Mayhew: I think the best way of arranging these allocations is on the basis of need, through the I.E.F.C.
    Mr. William Teeling: Is it not true that a delegation from Siam is due here

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    today or tomorrow, and will the hon. Gentleman make sure that this is one of the subjects to be discussed?
    Mr. Mayhew: I expect it will be, but that does not alter what I have just said.

  GERMANY

    Petrol Consumption
    Mr. Beswickasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present annual consumption of petrol in the British zone of Germany; and on what basis it is allocated.
    Mr. Mayhew: German civil consumption was 210,000 tons in 1946; 261,000 tons in 1947 and is estimated at 306,000 tons in 1948. Requirements are estimated and imported by military Government for the bizonal area on the basis of known past performance and the expected needs of an expanding industry. The detailed allocation of petrol to users is a German responsibility.
    Mr. Beswick: Do I understand that the only petrol allocated is for business purposes? If so, would my hon. Friend look into the fact that so much business seems to be transacted at the week-end?
    Mr. Mayhew: There is a regulation about the use of petrol at week-ends, but my right hon. Friend is not satisfied on this point and an inquiry is being held to decide in what way the regulations need strengthening.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that there is an impression that the average German motorist is better off than the British motorist?
    Mr. Mayhew: That is not true, but, nevertheless, an inquiry is being held.
    Mr. Granville Sharp: Is the recent increase in black market transactions in Germany linked up with the increasing allocation of petrol?
    Mr. Mayhew: I should need notice of that question.

    Refrigerators
    Mr. Beswickasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present production of refrigerators in the British and U.S. zones of Germany; and
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    what proportion is retained for the German home market.
    Mr. Mayhew: Two thousand and twenty-one electric refrigerators and 686 tons of refrigeration equipment were manufactured during October. I am informed that no precise figures are at present available as to the proportion retained in the home market, but that exports are negligible.
    Mr. Beswick: Although we in this country were ready and indeed proud to share essential goods with the Germans why should they be allowed, when they owe so much, to retain even one refrigerator until the market here has been satisfied?
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Are these pieces of mechanism necessary for the maintenance of the cold war?

    Soviet Sector, Berlin (Administration)
    Mr. Blackburnasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action His Majesty's Government are taking in respect of the establishment of an independent magistrat by the Soviet authorities in the Soviet sector of Berlin.
    Mr. Mayhew: This self - styled magistrat, which was not elected but nominated, was set up in the Soviet sector of Berlin by members of the Socialist Unity Party and other Communist-controlled organisations at what was miscalled an extraordinary session of the Berlin City Assembly which had been unconstitutionally convened by the Socialist Unity Deputy-Chairman. This is the culmination of a long Soviet campaign to disrupt the lawful administration of Berlin and to divide the city.
    The establishment of this magistrat has been recognised by the Soviet authorities but has been publicly condemned as illegal by British Military Government, who will continue to give its support to the constitutionally elected City Assembly.

    BULGARIA (ARMED FORCES)
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the terms of the Treaty of

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    Peace with Bulgaria, he will state what is the estimated strength of Bulgarian Armed Forces.
    Mr. Mayhew: The estimated strength of the Bulgarian Armed Forces is as follows:

    Land Forces: 87,000. The strength permitted by the Peace Treaty is 56,800.

    Naval Forces: 3,000, which is within the Peace Treaty limit.

    Air Forces: 180 aircraft, which is double the strength permitted by the Peace Treaty. The personnel strength is also estimated to exceed the Peace Treaty limit of 5,200.

    Mr. Low: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what His Majesty's Government are doing about this matter?
    Mr. Mayhew: I answered similar Questions last week. The truth is that enforcement of the Peace Treaty requires the co-operation of the Soviet Union.

    WHALING (INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION)
    Sir John Mellorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the recommendations of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, to which S.I., 1948, No. 2504, gives effect, have been implemented by the other Governments who were parties to the Convention.
    Mr. Mayhew: The provisions of the Convention are fully applicable to all Governments which have ratified it. The details of legislation passed in each of the countries concerned are not yet known, but we have no reason to suppose that the provisions of the Convention will not be carried out on the whaling grounds when the Antarctic Season opens on 15th December, 1948.
    Sir J. Mellor: Is the Under-Secretary satisfied with the progress which is being made towards implementation?
    Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir.

    CYPRUS (JEWISH DETAINEES)
    Mr. Dumpletonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Jewish detainees are now in Cyprus; and whether he will make a statement as to their future.
    Mr. Mayhew: The total number of detainees on 1st December was 11,915. The Security Council truce resolution of 29th May, of which the terms were later extended by that of 15th July, called on the Governments and authorities concerned not to introduce fighting personnel into Palestine and the Arab States during the cease fire. The attitude of His Majesty's Government has been that the entry into the Jewish area of Palestine of the large number of men of military age at present held in Cyprus would have created a situation markedly to be military advantage of one side and thereby have defeated one of the main objects of the truce. Meanwhile women and children and men of non-military age are free to leave for Palestine, and many have, in fact, left. Should a new Resolution be passed which abrogates or supersedes the Clause of the Resolution of 29th May under which Jews of military age are detained in Cyprus or should more peaceful conditions be established, His Majesty's Government would review the above decision. His Majesty's Government are now re-examining the position in the light of the present situation in Palestine.
    Mr. Dumpleton: Could my hon. Friend say a little more about the people of non-military age? How many are still left in Cyprus and what is obstructing them from being sent to Palestine?
    Mr. Mayhew: I have not got the figures, but there is no obstruction to their being sent to Palestine and many have, in fact, left.
    Mr. Mikardo: Can the hon. Gentleman say how many British personnel are engaged in looking after and guarding these detainees?
    Mr. Mayhew: I should need notice of that question.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can my hon. Friend say whether these people were not originally detained under the exercise, or purported exercise, of the Mandatory Power's duties with regard to immigration to Palestine, and, since that jurisdiction has come to an end by Act of this House, on what legal or constitutional basis are these people now deprived of their liberty?
    Mr. Mayhew: I should need notice on that legal point.
    Mr. McAdam: Are the Government of Cyprus or His Majesty's Government financially responsible for the maintenance of these refugees?
    Mr. Mayhew: Not the Government of Cyprus, Sir.
    Dr. Segal: Is my hon. Friend aware that these refugees are now in the last throes of despair, and would it not be fairer in the name of humanity and common decency to let them know how many months or years longer their enforced detention is to continue, as even an ordinary criminal has a right to know that, and these people have committed no crime whatever?
    Mr. Mayhew: They are held there in accordance with the Resolution of the United Nations, but, as I say, we are reexamining the position. Until then I cannot make any further statement.
    Mr. Silverman: When my hon. Friend says that these men are held there in accordance with the Resolution of the United Nations, will he tell the House what Resolution of the United Nations has ever asked His Majesty's Government to keep these men in detention unlawfully in Cyprus?
    Mr. Mayhew: I do not accept, of course, that they are unlawfully detained. I have already referred to the Resolution concerned in my original answer.
    Mr. McAdam: Could my hon. Friend say what is the financial responsibility of His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Mayhew: Not without notice.

    BUENOS AIRES TRANSPORT CORPORATION
    Mr. William Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what has been the result of the British Ambassador's representations to the Argentine Government concerning compensation to be paid to the British shareholders of the Buenos Aires Transport Corporation; and what is the present position concerning the assets of that corporation owned by British capital.
    Mr. Mayhew: No reply has yet been received to the representations which
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    have been made to the Argentine Government concerning the liquidation of the Buenos Aires Transport Corporation. The terms on which the liquidation is to be put into effect have not yet been fully disclosed.
    Mr. Teeling: Can the hon. Gentleman say how long it is since the Ambassador made this application?
    Mr. Mayhew: I cannot say the exact date. Our Embassy has been asked to telegraph as soon as new information is available.
    Sir Patrick Hannon: Does the Under-Secretary realise that in this case serious losses will probably be sustained by shareholders in this Corporation in this country, and what effort has been made by the Government to ensure fair play for them in a final settlement?
    Mr. Mayhew: We shall certainly try to get fair play.

    UNITED NATIONS (STATE OF ISRAEL)
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will instruct the British delegation at U.N.O. to support the application for admission to the United Nations which has been submitted by the State of Israel.
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. His Majesty's Government do not wish to exclude the possibility of Jewish entry into the United Nations at some stage, but they regard the present application as premature and hard to accept in view of the fact that the future of Palestine is still being discussed by the Assembly and that no frontiers have yet been drawn in Palestine.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: As the war which the Foreign Secretary set on against the Jews in Palestine has met with the failure it so richly deserved, and as the State of Israel has emerged and is now established and will not be altered by the Foreign Secretary, is it not high time that the right hon. Gentleman pocketed his prestige and thought a bit about world peace and joined with the majority of the United Nations?
    Mr. Mayhew: I know that, with my right hon. Friend, I resent many of the assumptions in that supplementary question, and I have nothing to add to the answer I have given.
    Mr. Norman Smith: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the State of Israel is obnoxious and odious to most British working men?
    Lord John Hope: Is not the Question and the subsequent performance of the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. PlattsMills) likely to give a wholly wrong and mischievous impression to the United States of public opinion in this country?
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the fact that sooner or later the State of Israel must be recognised would not the Minister agree to the decisions of Labour Party Conferences, keep the pledges given, and make the recognition sooner rather than later.
    Mr. Frank Byers: While dissociating myself from what has been said by the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Platts Mills), may I ask the Government to reconsider this matter, because many people are anxious to see an equitable solution arrived at between the Arabs and Jews, and they believe it can only be done if the Israeli application is supported at United Nations and we can have equality in the discussions?
    Mr. Mayhew: I am aware of the views of the hon. Member and his supporters about getting an equitable solution. The point is how we can get an equitable solution. It is not necessarily the case that we should be helping by taking the action suggested.
    Mr. S. Silverman: In view of the very long-standing policy of the Labour Party in this matter, will my hon. Friend take the opportunity of repudiating the suggestion made a moment or two ago that the State of Israel is obnoxious to British working men?
    Mr. Norman Smith: The hon. Gentleman should ask his constituents.
    Mr. Mayhew: A whole number of insinuations seem to have been made in supplementaries, and I entirely repudiate many of them.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: Would it not be anomalous as well as premature to admit
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    Israel to the United Nations when Eire, Portugal, Italy, Transjordan and Ceylon are still waiting?
    Mr. Mayhew: There are certain States with much stronger claims than Israel.

    BRITISH CONSULATES, U.S.A.
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many consulates and in which cities in the United States of America he has decided to close down; and how many will be continued.
    Mr. Mayhew: It has been decided to close the consular establishments at Buffalo and Tampa. It is not the present intention to close any of the remaining 25 consular establishments.
    Colonel Hutchison: In view of the community of interest between this country and the United States, and the need to attract visitors to this country and to promote trade in the United States, does the hon. Gentleman really think that this is a wise decision?
    Mr. Mayhew: There is also the need to economise on dollars.

    ENTRY VISAS (EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES)
    Mr. Joynson-Hicksasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many people in His Majesty's Government's service are now waiting entry visas to enable them to take up their appointments in countries within the sphere of influence of the U.S.S.R.; and how many people in the service of the Governments of such countries are awaiting entry visas to enable them to take up appointments in this country.
    Mr. Mayhew: The number of British officials now awaiting entry visas into the U.S.S.R. is three, into Czechoslovakia five, Hungary three, Poland three, Roumania four, and Bulgaria one. The number of officials from these countries awaiting entry visas into the United Kingdom is five; four from the Soviet Union and one from Poland.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Can the hon. Gentleman exercise some pressure with

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    regard to the entry visas required for countries beyond the Iron Curtain by declining to give entry visas which are required for entry into this country until those required for Eastern countries are granted by the Soviet Union and her satellite countries?
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir; I do not think that would have any effect at all.

    BRITISH COUNCIL, HOLLAND
    Sir Patrick Hannonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state as at the latest convenient date the programme of activities of the British Council in the Netherlands; whether proposals are being promoted for the improvement of cultural relations; and if plans have been completed for exchange of teachers and inspectors of schools between Great Britain and Holland to develop friendship and understanding between both countries.
    Mr. Mayhew: As the answer is rather long I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir P. Hannon: Would the Under-Secretary tell the House if everything possible is being done to establish close relations, cultural, trade and everything else, between the Netherlands and this country?
    Mr. Mayhew: I think my answer will show that as far as cultural matters are concerned, that is certainly so.
    Following is the answer:
    The autumn programme of lectures and concerts comprises a Shakespeare symposium of eight lectures and a series of concerts of British music performed by both British and Dutch artists. The British House at Amsterdam contains a reading room and library of over 8,000 volumes of British works, a library of gramophone records and sheet music of British music and a library of 16 mm. films and film strips. All these are available on loan and are extensively used by the Dutch.
    Amongst other normal activities arranged by the British Council outside British House during the Autumn and
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    Winter seasons are seven tours by British specialist lecturers. The Young Vic Company visited Amsterdam, The Hague, Utrecht and Leyden in November, presenting "As You Like It." An exhibition of contemporary British painting will be shown in Amsterdam next February.
    For the current academic year, seven scholarships have been awarded to Dutch postgraduate students and three bursaries for shorter periods have been awarded to technicians.
    Last Summer, a Summer school for Dutch teachers of English was held at Nijenrode by the British Council in conjunction with the Netherlands Ministry of Education. During the summer of 1948, some thirty Dutch students attended courses in Britain organised by the British Council, and 13 eminent Dutch visitors have visited Britain as guests of the British Council during the current year.
    The first meeting of the Mixed Commission appointed under the Anglo-Netherlands Cultural Convention was held in London on 16th and 17th November. The whole field of Anglo-Netherlands cultural relations was discussed, and proposals for furthering them were made. A scheme for the interchange of university lecturers was agreed between the British Council and the Netherlands Ministry of Education.
    With regard to the third part of the Question, I understand from my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Education, that he would warmly welcome an interchange of teachers between the two countries. Proposals to this end were fully discussed by the Commission and have been put forward for consideration by the Government of the Netherlands. Arrangements have already been made for an interchange of visits of Inspectors of the five Brussels Treaty countries.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    "Food Facts" Advertisements (Cost)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Food what has been the cost to the latest convenient date of inserting in the newspapers the articles entitled, "Food Facts."
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill): Before 31st March, 1947, the cost of "Food Facts" advertisements cannot readily be separated from other advertising costs. In the year ended 31st March, 1948, the cost of space for "Food Facts" newspaper advertisements was £150,582; in the six months ended 30th September, 1948, £77,262.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is not the hon. Lady aware that many people think that these "Food Facts" are just a joke, that they are only Socialist propaganda and a complete waste of the taxpayers' money?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question only goes to show how completely out of touch he is with the Housewives' League.
    Mr. Drayson: Should not the title be altered to "Food Fables"?
    Sir W. Smithers: Would the hon. Lady change the title to "Food Failures"?

    Sugar
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food how much sugar or sugar products were exported to the West Indies in the first nine months of 1948.
    Dr. Summerskill: Sugar exported from the United Kingdom to the British West Indies this year has consisted of a few hundred tons of refined sugar supplied to the non-sugar producing colonies of Bermuda and Grenada.
    Sir W. Smithers: Has the hon. Lady ever heard of the proverb, "Why send coals to Newcastle"?
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Minister of Food what quantity of sugar from East Africa has been imported during 1946 and 1947, respectively; and how this compares with 1937 and 1938.
    Dr. Summerskill: Only negligible quantities of sugar were imported into this country from East Africa in 1946 and none in 1947, but the Ministry purchased 10,200 tons and 14,600 tons in these years respectively which was shipped direct to other Colonial Territories. In 1937 and 1938 the imports of sugar into this country from East Africa were 16,003 and 16,086 tons, respectively.

    Imported Poultry and Rabbits
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the general dissatisfaction with the present method of allocation of imported poultry and rabbits, he will now publish the Report of the Bodinnar Committee.
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. I cannot agree to publish the Report of the Bodinnar Committee because it contains confidential information about illegal trading practices which it would not be in the public interest to disclose.
    Mr. Turton: Surely, the hon. Lady could publish an expurgated edition of the Bodinnar Report, making clear the Committee's views on the control of poultry and rabbits?
    Dr. Summerskill: My experience of the House of Commons tells me that the House is not fond of expurgated editions.
    Mrs. Florence Patonasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that none of the imported rabbits handled through the Association of Wholesale Distributors reaches the Beeston and Stapleford district of Nottingham; and, since this area has a population of 50,000, will he take steps to remedy this situation.
    Dr. Summerskill: I have asked the Association to consider and advise me on the possibility of extending distribution to the Beeston and Stapleford districts. I will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as possible.
    Mrs. Paton: Since the towns on either side of Beeston and Stapleford have had these allocations, the Beeston and Staple-ford Food Control Committee suggested to the Association that they should stagger the allocation but so far there has been no reply. Could my hon. Friend look into it?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, Sir.

    Tea (Christmas Bonus)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Food whether the Christmas bonus of tea will be available for old-age pensioners in addition to their present special ration.
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, Sir.

    Imported Fruit, Dumfriesshire
    Mr. Niall Macphersonasked the Minister of Food what action he is taking to increase the allocation of imported fruit allotted to the district of Moffat, Dumfriesshire.
    Dr. Summerskill: Moffat has had as many allocations as any other part of Scotland, and the quantity of imported fruit sent into the area at each allocation has, in fact, been rather more than that to which, on a population basis, the district is strictly entitled.
    Mr. Macpherson: In view of the fact that the answer to this Question is open to dispute at present, can the hon. Lady say when she is going to make the announcement which was promised some time ago on the whole question of imported fruit?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am quite prepared to make another review of allocations, and I hope to do it very soon.

    Pigs (Slaughter)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Food whether, when the nearest slaughter house is more than two miles away, he will permit members of a village pig club who are feeding a pig for home consumption for the first time to kill it on their own premises.
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. Members of pig clubs cannot slaughter on their premises if they have not done so previously. Nevertheless, any club may have their premises authorised as a slaughter-point for the pigs of its members.
    Mr. Turton: Does the hon. Lady realise that this is one of the regulations that is preventing more bacon being produced in this country, and will she reconsider the matter?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman is misinformed. This new regulation has been made in order to limit abuses on the part of self-suppliers.
    Mr. Turton: Is the hon. Lady suggesting that pig club members have been guilty of black market practices?
    Dr. Summerskill: As there has been so much illicit slaughtering, I cannot exclude pig club members.
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Food why Mr. A. F. Garton, Long Lane, Tilehurst, Berkshire, has been refused permission to slaughter on his premises a pig intended for home consumption although it has been his practice in the past to have pigs killed on his own premises; and why it has been necessary for three officials to visit Mr. Garton in connection with his application.
    Dr. Summerskill: As Mr. Garton had moved from Newbury to Tilehurst since he last killed a pig on his own premises in 1944, inquiries had to be made about his new premises before a licence could be issued to him to kill his pig there. We have now arranged for this to be done.
    Brigadier Petoasked the Minister of Food by what regulation pig keepers for home consumption, who have previously been granted permission to slaughter a pig on their own premises, are now informed that they must take their pigs to a Government slaughterhouse, if they reside within five miles radius of such a house; and what published regulation has cancelled the previous Ministry of Food regulation for issue of licences to slaughter to self-suppliers of pigs, headed L.L.P.
    Dr. Summerskill: There has been no change in the regulations and domestic pig keepers who obtained a licence to kill pigs for home consumption on their own premises in previous years may do so again this year. I am grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for bringing to my notice the misunderstanding which arose in our local office in Barnstaple, and I have taken steps to see that it is put right.

    Prosecution, London
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Minister of Food why the London Divisional Food Office discontinued investigations in May, 1947, into the case of R. Teelings, Limited, who were convicted in October, 1948, at the Old Bailey; and what additional evidence caused his enforcement headquarters to reopen the case.
    Dr. Summerskill: The first investigation related to a complaint by one retailer in respect of a single transaction and the evidence obtained at that time was considered insufficient to justify proceedings. Further information from a member of the public led to other inquiries.
    Sir J. Mellor: Was not the offence admitted to the London Divisional Food Office in May, 1947, and, in those circumstances, why was it necessary for considerable pressure to be brought upon headquarters before the prosecution was undertaken?
    Dr. Summerskill: I agree. I think proceedings should have been initiated in the first case. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that the enforcement officers concerned have been dealt with in an appropriate manner.

    Chocolate (Price Reductions)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether, arising out of the talks he is now having with the chocolate manufacturers he will be in a position to make a statement before the coming Recess in respect of the price reductions which have been agreed with the manufacturers and traders; and whether he can now state what steps are being taken to protect the retailers against losses on their existing stocks of chocolate.
    Dr. Summerskill: The discussions with the industry about new price schedules for chocolate and sweets cannot be completed in time for any statement to be made before the Recess, but I can assure the hon. Member that we shall bear in mind the point he makes about retailers' stocks.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the hon. Lady aware that the public have had to pay very high prices for many months, and have been exploited by the Government owing to the prices charged to the chocolate manufacturers for cocoa beans, and will she make certain that, in future, the people will not be expected to pay these high prices, for which there is no justification whatever?

    Barley Storage, Tholthorpe
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Food what quantity of barley is stored at Tholthorpe aerodrome, near Easing-wold, Yorkshire; what are the countries of origin of this barley; how long has it been stored there; and what is its present condition.
    Dr. Summerskill: Of the 5,413 tons of barley in store, 3,423 tons are of Russian origin and 1,990 tons of Australian origin. Some of it has been in
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    store since the end of April, 1948. The bulk is in good condition, but the last 2,100 tons placed in store in November, has been recommended for fumigation.
    Mr. Turton: Is the hon. Lady aware that the fire brigade has been called to this barley more than once? Would she put it into circulation, so that we can have more bacon, instead of hiding it away and leaving it to deteriorate?
    Dr. Summerskill: I think the fire brigade were probably called because they are experts in fumigation. I understand that this barley is infested with weevil, and that that is not an uncommon condition.

    Garden Fruit (Jam-making)
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Food what steps he proposes to take to prevent the waste of garden fruit grown in the expectation that sugar would be available for home-made jam.
    Dr. Summerskill: With the aid of the increased domestic ration in 1949, and of bonuses on the scale of previous years which will be made if our present estimates of supplies is reached, I see no reason why there should be any waste of garden fruit grown for home-made jam.

    Canning (Tinplate)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether in view of the export of tinplate and manufactured cans destined for Soviet salmon, he can give an assurance that the needs of the English canners of fresh fruit will come first and be satisfied before further quantities for export are allocated.
    Dr. Summerskill: The requirements of tinplate at home are taken fully into account when deciding what can be exported to pack food overseas for supply to this country, but we are bound also to consider the relative importance of the foods to be canned. So far as we know there should be about as many cans for fruit in 1949 as in recent years.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the hon. Lady aware that in the Vale of Evesham many of the canners had an inadequate supply for last season's fruit, and will she see that the home canners do not have to waste fruit, by ensuring that there are the necessary cans for next fruit season?
    Dr. Summerskill: We are going to do our best.
    Mr. De la Bère: We shall want a bit more than that.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Could the hon. Lady tell the House whether any tinplate was exported to the Soviet Union for last season's strawberry crop?
    Dr. Summerskill: I could not say that without notice.
    Dr. Segal: Is the hon. Lady aware that she stated in this House that all tinned salmon comes from the dollar areas, and does her statement now mean that the Soviet territories are to be included in the dollar areas?
    Dr. Summerskill: No. I have said in the past, when I have been challenged, that a great deal of canned salmon came from Canada and the United States, and now we hope to get some from Russia.
    Mr. Douglas Marshall: Is the hon. Lady aware of the high protein value of the pilchard, and of the tin shortages that have arisen in the canning factories of Looe and Mevagissey, and will she take immediate action to put these right?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, Sir, I am aware of that.
    Major Legge-Bourke: When the hon. Lady says that the tinplate supply is going to be as big as last season, is she aware that in the consultations which have taken place with her Ministry some assurance was given to the growers that tinplate next year would be greater than last year?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. and gallant Member wanted to know if it would not be less and I answered him. I am very pleased to hear what he says.

    Meat Agreement (Uruguay)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the terms of the recent meat contract with Uruguay.
    Dr. Summerskill: It would not be in the public interest to publish the full text of the meat agreement recently signed with the Uruguayan Government. I may say, however, that Uruguay has undertaken to send us 34,000 tons of
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    meat during the year ending 17th February, 1949, at prices comparable with those which we are paying to Argentina. So far 17,323 tons, including 2,635 tons canned corned meat, have been shipped.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the hon. Lady aware that only one person, namely, the Minister of Food, is able to gamble with the taxpayers' money in this way and render no account of it? Is the hon. Lady also aware that the Ministry of Food is being fooled over this meat contract as it was over the Argentine contract, and will the Government return to private- enterprise buying and do away with bulk purchasing which necessitates bulk selling?
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: When the hon. Lady says that the price is comparable with that of the Argentine, can she say what is the percentage increase on the last contract, and would she confirm or deny the statement made in the Uruguayan Press that the prices have been raised by one-third?
    Dr. Summerskill: I would require notice of the first part of the supplementary question.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: What about the second part?
    Captain Crookshank: Can the hon. Lady say why it would not be in the public interest to give this information?
    Dr. Summerskill: I have explained time after time, as has my right hon. Friend, that if there are negotiations with different countries for meat, as, in fact, we are having, it is not wise and it is not good business to reveal to the world what we are paying.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: If the hon. Lady says that negotiations are going on, I quite agree, but these negotiations to which I refer are complete. The Uruguayan Press state that the prices are one-third higher than they were the last time. Can she say whether that is true or not?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman would agree that the housewives of this country would like an increase in the meat ration. Therefore, if we are looking elsewhere for meat, as we are, it would be unwise to reveal these prices.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Could the hon. Lady say whether this agreement covers more than one year's purchase, as she has referred to one year, and, if so, how many?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, Sir, it covers a year up to February, 1949.

    Milk (School Holidays)
    Mr. Symondsasked the Minister of Food if he will arrange for milk cards to be issued to day-school children to enable them to obtain extra milk' from the family retailer during school holidays, when the school milk scheme is in abeyance, in the same way that blue milk cards are issued to children coming home for the holidays from boarding schools.
    Dr. Summerskill: The cards issued to boarding school children do not entitle them to receive extra milk in place of the school milk that they receive in term time, but merely serve to ensure that they receive their normal priority allowance of milk when home on holiday. I am afraid that the demand on manpower and administrative difficulties that would arise preclude the delivery of school milk to the children's homes during the holidays.
    Mr. Symonds: As it is desirable for children to have this extra milk during the holidays as well as during term, and as, in fact, under present arrangements they are not getting it, may I ask my hon. Friend not to allow herself to be daunted by the admittedly great administrative difficulties, but to have "another go" and try to devise some scheme which will get the milk into the children?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am always prepared to have "another go." I have had a good many goes at this already. My hon. Friend must remember, however, that there are 30,000 schools receiving milk from 8,000 retailers, and that, to carry out his suggestion, we should have to switch that milk during the holidays to 100,000 retailers who serve four million homes.
    Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Can the hon. Lady tell us what happens to the milk during the holidays, because cows are no respecters of holiday times?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Gentleman is quite right, biologically. The answer is that it goes into dried milk for babies.

    Christmas Puddings (Distribution)
    Mr. Joynson-Hicksasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware of the dearth of Christmas puddings in West Sussex; what arrangements he has made for distribution of the necessary ingredients between different areas of the country; and if he will ensure adequate supplies in the Chichester area in time for them to be bought before Christmas Eve.
    Dr. Summerskill: My Department does not control the distribution of Christmas puddings. We have, however, asked manufacturers to hold a reserve which has now been sent to food divisions where the tonnage delivered was below the average for the rest of the country. Sussex is receiving a share of this reserve. I am afraid I cannot make arrangements for deliveries of puddings to individual towns within food divisions.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Can the hon. Lady arrange for the distribution from her reserves to arrive in Sussex in time for people to make Christmas puddings before Christmas?
    Dr. Summerskill: If the hon. Gentleman is talking about ingredients, he should know that ingredients are tied to registrations.

    Biscuits (Distribution)
    Mr. Bowdenasked the Minister of Food if he is aware of the uneven distribution of biscuits, that some shops have none whilst others have good stocks; and what system of allocation of biscuits does he adopt.
    Dr. Summerskill: The distribution of biscuits is managed by the trade. We have reviewed it with them recently and I hope that a rather wider spread of supplies will be effected.
    Mr. Bowden: Could my hon. Friend say what are the possibilities of increasing the overall supply?
    Dr. Summerskill: My hon. Friend will remember that we gave increased sugar to manufacturers, and, therefore, there might be a slight increase next year.
    Mr. De la Bère: Why not take sugar off the ration altogether?

    GREECE (MEDIATION PROPOSALS)
    Mr. Parkinasked the Prime Minister whether he has considered a statement signed by a large number of hon. Members of this House and by other persons calling for the initiation through the United Nations of a mediation commission in Greece; and whether he intends to take any action.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I have studied this statement and understand that a reply has been sent to the sponsoring organisation by the Foreign Office. His Majesty's Government do not intend to act upon this suggestion. The Charter of the United Nations expressly precludes interference in matters essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any State. His Majesty's Government cannot, therefore, propose to the United Nations mediation between the Greek Government and the rebels. Moreover, the General Assembly has already made certain recommendations designed to promote conciliation between Greece on the one side and her northern neighbours on the other, and to prevent that continued interference by Albania, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia in the internal affairs of Greece which is at the root of that country's trouble.
    Mr. Parkin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is sound evidence of the existence of a body of moderate and responsible opinion in Greece, which would welcome mediation and that this might lead to the formation of the sort of Greek Government which could be trusted by all Greeks? Will my right hon. Friend look into this matter personally, study these facts, and try to do something to dispel the bad impression that the British Government are only ready to intervene in support of a reactionary Government?
    The Prime Minister: That, of course, can be corrected at once. Anyone who knows the history of Greece, knows the efforts that have been made to get a thoroughly representative Government in Greece and an election was held which elected the Government.
    Mr. Eden: Is the Prime Minister aware that this Government was elected under a guarantee by all the Allied Powers, and has there ever been a
    24
    Government in the Balkans elected under such careful precautions to see that it represented the views of the people?
    The Prime Minister: What the right hon. Gentleman says is quite right.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Whoever may have sponsored the election, is my right hon. Friend aware that the regime now is conducting such a policy that there is no member of the party supporting the Government in this House who, if he were a Greek citizen, would not be against it?
    The Prime Minister: I am not aware of that, and I do not suppose my hon. Friend is aware of it.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case that before the elections, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, took place, the Foreign Secretary declared in this House that when the elections took place and the Government was formed British troops would be withdrawn from Greece? Why are they not withdrawn?
    Mr. Speaker: That is a long way from this Question, which only asks for a mediation commission and not about the state of the Greek Government.
    Mr. Pritt: Would the right hon. Gentleman, in considering the possibility of mediation, bear in mind, with reference to the oft repeated assurance that the trouble comes from the northern neighbours of Greece, first, that the evidence brought before the United Nations Commission shows that any such interference is simply laughable in its incongruity and smallness; and, secondly, the rebels are very busy and strong in the Peloponnesus, which is 100 miles from the front?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that that last observation affects the matter. I entirely disagree with the hon. and learned Member as to his first point.

    ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION (DIVORCE LAW)
    Mr. Sydney Silvermanasked the Attorney-General what consideration is being given to the desirability of legislation concerning the effect upon the Divorce Law of problems consequent upon artificial insemination.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Whiteley): I have been asked to reply. Consideration is being given to this matter, and my right hon. and learned Friend is not yet in a position to make any statement.

  AGRICULTURE

    Bureau of Dairy Science (Name)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the Imperial Bureau of Dairy Science, Reading, has changed its name to the Commonwealth Bureau of Dairy Science, and that it is using notepaper and envelopes on which the word "Imperial" has been struck out and the word "Commonwealth" written above; and what is the reason for this change.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. George Brown): The change resulted from the decision taken a year ago by the Executive Council of the Imperial Agricultural Bureaux that, as from the beginning of 1948, "Commonwealth" should replace "Imperial" in its own title and in those of the organisations which it controls, including the Bureau of Dairy Science. The Council stated at the time that they felt the use of the word "Commonwealth" rather than "Imperial" was more in keeping with modern trends.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the hon. Gentleman ashamed of the word "Imperial"?
    Mr. Brown: I think the hon. and gallant Member has completely failed to understand my reply. He is following the bad example which is sometimes set by his own Front Bench in this matter.

    Exmoor Survey (Report)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Agriculture if he has any statement to make regarding the preliminary report of the Exmoor Survey by the University of Bristol, a copy of which was forwarded to him.
    Mr. G. Brown: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend prefers to await the final report. This preliminary report is of much interest but deals with only one of several aspects of farming conditions on Exmoor.
    Mr. Collins: Is my hon. Friend aware that although, on the whole, agriculture is very prosperous, at the same time areas similar to this are depressed areas, and need urgent treatment? Cannot he give any information concerning recommendations arising out of the interim report?
    Mr. Brown: No, Sir. I do not think it would be wise to do that. There will be a final report which will include much wider technical and social data than that which is in the rather limited interim report, and my right hon. Friend prefers to wait for that report.

    Glanllyn Estate, Merionethshire
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture what function will be performed by the advisory committee of 15 persons appointed by the Agricultural Land Commission in connection with the Glanllyn estate in Merionethshire; which of them have practical experience of estate management and farming; what fees they will be paid; and what scale of expenses they will be allowed.
    Mr. G. Brown: As the Glanllyn Estate comprises some 30,000 acres of beautiful country, including Bala Lake, in the heart of rural Wales, my right hon. Friend appointed the committee to advise the Welsh Land Sub-Commission on matters relating to amenity or rural life which may arise in connection with the management of the estate. The members were appointed for their knowledge of such matters and not for their practical experience of estate management and farming, with which they will not be concerned. They will be paid no fees but will receive the normal Government rates for travelling expenses and subsistence.
    Mr. Hurd: Will the activities of this amenities committee over-ride the ordinary functions of estate management? If so, who will bear the loss?
    Mr. Brown: From what I have said and from the terms of reference which were included in the Press notice relating to the appointment of this committee, it is obvious that that cannot arise.

    Vegetable Growing (Acreage)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture why he has advised farmers

    27
    and market gardeners not to increase further the acreage of vegetables; and if it is the Government's intention simultaneously to restrict the importation of competing supplies from the Continent.
    Mr. G. Brown: The acreage under vegetables is now. 80 per cent. greater than in 1939, and except in the case of early frame-grown vegetables, no further expansion is considered to be necessary. With regard to the last part of the Question, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food has stated on several occasions that the fresh fruit and vegetable import programme is designed to supplement home production with a view to giving the consumer a full supply at reasonable prices while avoiding the creation of glut conditions.
    Mr. Hurd: Does the Minister intend to advise growers here to reduce the acreage of onions in 1949 so as to make room for more inported onions?
    Mr. Brown: That point does not arise.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Does the hon. Gentleman's reply mean that this country is now self-supporting in fresh vegetables?
    Mr. Collins: Is the present vegetable acreage regarded as the proper maximum, or is a lower figure contemplated?
    Mr. Brown: All that the advice referred to says is that, having regard to the increase since 1939, we feel, that further expansion in the acreage of vegetables would not be advisable.
    Major Sir Thomas Dugdale: Will the Minister simultaneously restrict the importation of competing supplies from the Continent, as that is very important?
    Mr. Brown: Among other factors, consultations take place about the level of imports having regard to home production.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Would the hon. Gentleman bear in mind and tell the Ministry of Food that at the moment there are hundreds of thousands of tons of home-produced onions rotting in my constituency and in others, and that the growers themselves are only too anxious for the price to be reduced to the consumer if the Ministry will help them to get them on to the market?

    PILCHARD FISHERMEN (STRIKE)
    Mrs. Middletonasked the Minister of Agriculture what reports he has received from his Fisheries Officer with regard to the strike of fishermen at the Barbican, Plymouth, resulting from a dispute between fishermen and buyers about wholesale prices of pilchards.
    Mr. G. Brown: Several reports have been received summarising the negotiations between the fishermen and the buyers. I am informed that on 3rd December the fishermen agreed under protest to accept an offer of 3s. per stone for canning and 2s. 6d. per stone for curing.
    Mrs. Middleton: Is my hon. Friend aware that the men have gone back under protest and with a sense of grievance? Is he further aware that the price of equipment has gone up? For example, pilchard nets which were £3 to £4 each before the war are now costing between £20 and £24. Will my hon. Friend see that these men get a reasonable return for their perilous labours?
    Mr. Brown: I said in my reply that the agreement had been come to under protest by the fishermen. The hon. Lady must remember, however, that this is a purely commercial dispute over a matter which is not one of price control. My Department has certainly kept in close contact with the various people concerned all the way through. As to the agreement, the best thing is to let it work itself out.
    Mr. D. Marshall: Is the Minister aware that one of the great difficulties in the pilchard industry is the shortage of tins? Will he have "another go" at the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, who is sitting next to him, with a view to improving the tin position?
    Mrs. Middletonasked the Minister of Food what action he is taking to avoid the decline in supplies of fish being brought about by the strike of fishermen at the Barbican, Plymouth, and at some Cornish fishing ports.
    Dr. Summerskill: I am glad to say that the pilchard fishermen have agreed to go to sea again, and the differences between them and the curers have been settled.
    Mrs. Middleton: Is my hon. Friend aware that while the fishermen have had their prices cut to 2s. 6d. a stone, pilchards were selling on the open-air market at Plymouth on Saturday at 7d. a lb.? Will the Ministry of Food deal with this question of middlemen's profits with margins, which are bringing down the price to the producer and increasing the price to the consumer?
    Dr. Summerskill: We do not control pilchards, so this matter is entirely outside our province.

    FERRIES (COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
    Mr. MacLeodasked the Minister of Transport when he expects to introduce legislation to implement recommendations of the Report of the Committee on Ferries in Great Britain.
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Transport what steps have been taken to give effect to the recommendations of Part III of the Ferries Report.
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Transport how soon it is anticipated that it will be possible to introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the Report of the Committee on Ferries in Great Britain.
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): I am not in a position to make any statement regarding legislation. I hope that it will be possible to give effect without legislation to a number of the recommendations in the Committee's Report, including Part III of the Report, and I am considering how far and by what means such recommendations can be put into effect administratively. Other Departments besides my own are concerned, but I hope to be able to let the hon. Members have more definite news before long.
    Mr. MacLeod: Is the Minister aware of the great dissatisfaction which is felt in the Highlands of Scotland at the unsatisfactory state of these ferries? Is he further aware that they are considered a great deterrent not only to local trade but to the development of the tourist movement?
    Mr. Barnes: Yes, Sir, I am quite aware of that, but I would remind the hon.
    30
    Gentleman that until this Committee was established nothing had been done for a long time and very little information existed on this matter. The purpose of establishing the Committee was, first of all, to get authoritative information on which action could be based if necessary in the future.
    Mr. MacLeod: Will the Minister ensure that there is no further delay?
    Mr. Barnes: I will do my best.

    UNION CASTLE LINE (RACE SEGREGATION)
    Mr. John Lewisasked the Minister of Transport the form of the representations which he made recently to the Union Castle Line regarding the colour bar on the s.s. "Durban Castle" and the nature of their reply; and if he is satisfied that in future this Line will not introduce segregation on their ships based on colour, or any other type of discrimination.
    Mr. Barnes: As I have already informed my hon. Friend, the Union Castle Line are fully aware of my objection to racial discrimination and, in response to my inquiry they informed me that they shared these views. As I have no powers in this matter I must leave it to the Company to make such arrangements on board ship as they consider necessary for the general convenience and comfort of all their passengers.
    Mr. Lewis: That is what the right hon. Gentleman told me in the House on 18th November. How is it possible for him to give effect to a principle of non-segregation in regard to racial discrimination and at the same time, have regard to the convenience of certain sections of the community and stoop to the prejudices and practices of the least civilised members of the South African community? How can he do both things at one and the same time?
    Mr. Barnes: I do not alter the substance of my reply but, as I informed my hon. Friend, I have conveyed my views to the company. They shared my views and I have no further power to take action in the matter.
    Mr. Lewis: If the company tell my right hon. Friend that they deplore racial

    31
    discrimination and at the same time are going to look after the convenience of certain passengers who wish the colour bar to be imposed on board that ship, can he tell the House that he is satisfied with the position?
    Mr. Barnes: I have not indicated that I am satisfied with the position. What I have indicated is that I have no power to deal with this matter myself and that I think it is best left to the general common sense of the British shipping companies.

    UNDERGROUND RAILWAY DEVELOPMENTS (SOUTH-EAST LONDON)
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet completed his surveys of S.E. London with a view to possible underground railway developments.
    Mr. Barnes: I expect to receive in due course a report from the British Transport Commission covering this matter.
    Mr. Skeffington: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, without exception, the passenger facilities in this area are the worst in the Greater London area and that while the people of South-East London are delighted to see tube extensions in the North they think it is about time something was done for their convenience?
    Mr. Barnes: Yes, Sir. That is the reason why the British Transport Commission have established a working party to look into this matter and to report to me shortly.

    PARKED CARS (LIGHTING REGULATIONS)
    Captain John Crowderasked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider amending the regulations so as to enable motorists to park their cars in well-lit streets in built-up areas without lights.
    Mr. Barnes: I have no power to exempt vehicles standing on roads from the requirements of the Road Transport Lighting Act, 1927, except on parking
    32
    places specially set aside for that purpose. Under the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations, 1936, the police authority can consent to the parking of vehicles without lights on any part of a road so set aside if satisfied that it is adequately lighted.
    Captain Crowder: May I point out that I put this Question down to the Home Secretary and that it has been transferred to the Minister of Transport? Will the Minister have a word with the Home Secretary and ask him to have a look at this again so as to give the police a little more discretion in the matter because it seems to me, from letters from my constituents, that discrimination is very often exercised against the motorist? Will he bear in mind that it is impossible to keep the batteries of cars charged on the small amount of petrol allowed?
    Mr. Barnes: I will certainly consult my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
    Mr. Keeling: Has the Minister any information whether, away from parking places, the police enforce the rule rigidly or refrain from prosecuting where there is virtually no danger?
    Mr. Barnes: I am afraid I could not answer that question directly.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: Can the Minister say how "a built-up area without lights" can be well-lit?
    Dr. Segal: Would it not be possible to mark some urban roads with "Lay-by" signs, as is done in certain country roads, in order to enable drivers to park their cars without lights?

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Rolls Royce Nene Jet Engine
    Mr. Donnerasked the Minister of Supply why the Rolls Royce Nene jet engine was taken off the secret list; and on what grounds permission was given to sell these engines to the U.S.S.R. in 1946 and 1947.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. John Freeman): The Nene engine was placed on the "Open" list in the normal way when it had reached the stage of

    33
    development which justified that step. Refusal of a licence would have been contrary to the general export policy prevailing at the time.
    Mr. Donner: Would the hon. Gentleman say why his right hon. Friend has considered it Ifs duty to facilitate Russian re-armament?

    Conveyor Belting
    Mr. Sutcliffeasked the Minister of Supply if he is aware that the production of conveyor belting has been almost brought to a standstill owing to the large quantity purchased from the U.S.A.; and what action he is taking in the matter.
    Mr. J. Freeman: No, Sir. The production of conveyor belting has not been brought to a standstill or appreciably reduced. The average monthly production rate this year is 997,000 feet, and the actual production in October was 924,000 feet.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some mills in my constituency have had to give up the whole flow of production by turning the machinery to other uses and that this is due entirely to these excessively large orders placed in the United States, said to be double requirements?
    Mr. Freeman: I think that question probably applies to the manufacture of cotton duck. That is not quite the same as conveyor belting and the hon. Member should put another question down about it.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Building Materials and Components
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Minister of Works what has been the result of his discussions with representatives of the manufacturers and distributors of building materials and components about the report of Lord Simon of Wythenshawe's Committee of Inquiry into the organisation and distribution of building materials and components; and whether His Majesty's Government will now implement the committee's recommendation for immediate action by the Government to control distributor's margins on materials and components.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Key): Since engaging in the discussions referred to in the first part of the question, I have been notified of reductions in the prices of a number of materials and components. In reply to the second half of the question, control is being exercised over margins in a number of the more important cases by the fixing of maximum prices to the user and in other cases by the operation of the Goods and Services (Price Control) Orders.
    Mr. Jones: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that his power of control is adequate to deal with the problem referred to in the Question?
    Mr. Key: Yes, Sir. I think the way in which it is working out will prove that it is adequate.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend publish a list of these reductions so that we may judge the effect of this report? Secondly, is he considering referring the industries concerned to the appropriate monopoly commission of inquiry?
    Mr. Key: With regard to the second part of the question, I have already said, in reply to a Question last month, that we are considering one or two cases for inquiry. I must think again about the publication of the whole list of reductions.
    Mr. Gibson: Can the Minister say when the reductions in prices about which he has notified the manufacturers will come into operation?
    Mr. Key: Those to which I have referred have already taken place.

    Hostel, County Durham
    Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Works if he is aware of the neglected condition of the grounds at the Bevin Hostel, Crook, Co. Durham, and what action he proposes to take to improve it; and whether he will appoint a caretaker and gardener with a view to restoring the amenities of this hostel.
    Mr. Key: Yes, Sir. Arrangements are being made to tidy the part of the grounds for which my Department is responsible, and to maintain it in proper condition. The greater part of the premises is being used as housing accommodation and is in the charge of the Local Authority. My

    35
    right hon. Friend the Minister of Health is taking up the question of the condition of this part of the grounds with the Local Authority.
    Mr. Murray: Is the Minister aware that his answers will give a certain amount of satisfaction? Is he also aware that there are many more Government Departments making good use of this hostel now and will he see that it is not allowed to degenerate, as on a previous occasion, but that it is kept as a place of beauty and an asset to the town of Crook?

    Building Licence, Cardiff
    Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Minister of Works to whom a licence was granted for the construction of a building of a floor area of approximately 70,000 square feet in Western Avenue, Cardiff, completed in or about July, 1947; and what were the circumstances in which this building was acquired for the use of a Government Department.
    Mr. Key: A licence for the erection of the building which I presume the hon. Member has in mind was granted to Messrs. Unity Structures (Wales), Ltd., in April, 1946. This firm was later unable to proceed with the intended production of prefabricated housing components, and a lease of the building was acquired from them by my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General.

    Wash Boilers (Supply)
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Works if he is aware that, owing to the shortage of wash boilers, some local authorities are having to ask housewives on temporary housing sites to share the washing facilities with several other families; that this is giving rise to difficulties; and can he hold out any prospect of the supply position being improved so as to allow of an allocation of one wash boiler per family or not less than one between two families.
    Mr. Key: No, Sir. I am not aware of any shortage of wash boilers, but if the hon. and gallant Member will let me know of any cases of difficulty I will have them investigated.
    Brigadier Medlicott: Is the Minister aware that there is a great shortage of
    36
    these articles in the county of Norfolk and that the shortage is causing anxiety to the local authorities? If I give him figures, will he do his best to help to increase the supply?
    Mr. Key: No such shortage has been brought to my notice so far.

    ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES, AYRSHIRE
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the reason for the delay in supplying poles and other materials for the supply of electricity to villages in South Ayrshire.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): Poles are allocated quarterly in bulk by the Ministry to Area Electricity Boards, who themselves decide where they shall be used. I understand, however, that allocations are now sufficient to meet present requirements. My Ministry is not responsible for the sub-allocations of any other materials which it is within the discretion of the boards to order and use.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the. Minister aware that the explanation of the local authorities is the shortage of poles and equipment? How does he reconcile that with his answer?
    Mr. Robens: That was the explanation until the supply of poles became more plentiful.

    PURCHASE TAX (FLOORING MATERIALS)
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why by S.I., 1948, No. 2398, he has retained Purchase Tax upon floor coverings generally, while exempting tiles or strips not exceeding 450 square inches in area; and whether he will remove this discrimination.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Douglas Jay): Tiles or strips not exceeding 450 square inches in area have been exempted from Purchase Tax to assist the housing programme, since this form of flooring is now extensively used by builders owing to the shortage of timber. Larger sizes are not

    37
    generally used by builders and any discrimination involved would, therefore, be negligible.
    Sir J. Mellor: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this order is causing rubber sheeting to be cut up into small pieces, which is wasteful of time, labour and material? Will he say why it is not possible, in order to prevent this, to extend the exemption to all these flooring materials?
    Mr. Jay: Because the exemption affects only materials actually used for flooring and not those simply for covering floors. Materials used for covering floors have always been taxed.
    Sir J. Mellor: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the result of this order is to cause rubber sheeting to be cut into small pieces to avoid the payment of Purchase Tax?
    Mr. Jay: That may be one of the consequences but it is not the chief purpose of the order.
    Mr. J. Lewis: Will my hon. Friend realise that, in so far as this order is concerned, a mistake has been made by his Department, and that the facts and information relating to the matter have been placed before his Department? Does he not realise that what the hon. Baronet has said is perfectly correct, and that people are buying large strips and cutting them up so that they may be exempt from tax? It is an utter absurdity, and my hon. Friend ought to take the order back and look at it again.
    Mr. Jay: I am not aware that a mistake has been made. If my hon. Friend has further information to lay before us we shall certainly look at it.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. H. Morrison.].
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NATIONAL SERVICE (AMENDMENT) [MONEY]
  Resolution reported:
  " That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to substitute eighteen months for twelve months as the term of whole-time service under the National Service Act, 1948, and five and a half years for seven years as the aggregate of the terms of whole-time and part-time service there under, and to make other amendments in that Act, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the passing of the said Act of the present Session in the expenses directed to be defrayed out of moneys so provided by Section fifty-five of the said Act of 1948."
  Resolution agreed to.

  NATIONAL SERVICE (AMENDMENT) BILL
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  NATIONAL SERVICE (AMENDMENT) BILL

    CLAUSE 1.—(Substitution of eighteen months as term of whole-time service.)
    3.33 p.m.
    The Chairman: I do not propose to call any of the Amendments proposed to Clause 1, and I think I ought to say that the Debate on the Clause standing part will naturally be very restricted. The sole question is whether the period of service ought to be extended from 12 months to 18.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Paget: The difficulty which this Bill is designed to meet. is not caused by world circumstances or foreign affairs. I think that that was well established on Second Reading. Nor is it the result of post-war commitments being heavier than pre-war commitments. We are free now of the commitments of India, of Burma, and of Palestine. Instead we have token forces in Greece, in Trieste, and in Germany. By token forces I mean forces which are inadequate in case of war in their area. Any force less than 60 or 70 Divisions is a token force in Germany.
    The real cause of our trouble is the misuse of conscription. Instead of using

    39
    conscription for the purpose for which it was granted, which was to create a trained Reserve, we have fed conscripts into the Regular Army until the Regular Army has become gorged and bloated with conscripts, to the point where it is impotent. It is these numbers of conscripts which the Army has to train which has made it incapable of performing its proper function of meeting our commitments. We cannot implement our commitments because half of the Army is immobilised by conscripts. That is the situation with which we are faced. That is the paradox—that because of conscription we have to increase the period of service. That is the real difficulty we are up against. None the less, this is a fact. In existing circumstances we have to provide ourselves with additional men. The Bill proposes that we shall do this by extending the period of conscription to 18 months. To my mind, it is a political solution. It may be the most accepable solution politically: economically it is the most extravagant solution possible, and militarily it is the most inefficient solution.
    When a man is conscribed, he spends the first six months doing his basic training. During that time he is not an asset: he is a burden on the Army. This is not less so because part of his basic training is done after he has been sent to his unit. To that extent he holds back his unit. Under the 18 months scheme the Army is to have the use of the man for 12 months after his basic training has been done. At any given time more than half the Army will be comprised of these conscripts. In the operational units the proportion will be considerably more than half, because the regular Army has to supply most of the special services.
    Therefore, at any given time it means that more than half in the operational units will be conscripts with an average service in the unit of about six months. That means that every one of our units will be permanently inefficient, because we cannot get properly trained units on that basis.
    The collective training begins at section level. Then we come to the company and squadron level. As recruits come forward to the squadrons and companies the level of training of each company and each squadron is never the same. That means that the companies
    40
    and squadrons cannot work together. That means we shall never get brigade training under this system, much less divisional training, or training in the movements of great numbers of men, which is necessary to create competent staffs. All this adds up to a permanently inefficient Army.
    Conscript armies in peace time always are inefficient. They are big and soft. As a war goes on they may toughen and become good troops, but they begin big and soft. The Dutch mobilised 400,000 men, and they were defeated and forced to surrender in four days by one airborne division of professionals in co-operation with other professionals up in the air. The Belgians mobilised 9,000 men. They were smashed by 500 paratroopers and 30,000 panzer professionals who broke through at the Albert Canal. The French mobilised 5 million. They, in their turn, were smashed by about 150,000 panzers who broke through in the Ardennes and went on to the sea. The German conscripts in those great battles of 1940 played no more than a walking-on part. It was the effectiveness of the professional army in the manæuvring stages of the war that was decisive. The lesson of the last war is that large conscript armies are obsolete; they are no use today. In the initial stages a war must be fought by immensely efficient professional armies. What the army wants today is not more men but fewer men for a longer period.
    Not only is 18 months going to give us an inefficient Army, but it is going to give us that inefficient Army at the maximum cost to our economy. So far as overseas service is concerned, quite obviously 12 months is wildly extravagant. No sooner have we got our man acclimatised, than we have to bring him home. The present scheme calls up more men than are required or can be used. It is thought to get over that by postponing the age of call-up by steps. Obviously, there is no future in that scheme. What will happen will be either that we shall have a system of under-the-counter medical examination and individual deferment, or we shall call up far more men than we can use and keep them marching up the hill and down again.
    Dr. Haden Guest: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman explain what he means by "under-the-counter medical deferment?"
    Mr. Paget: I mean by that creating various medical standards for calling up only half the men we really want, instead of the whole lot, as we are proposing to do under this Bill. In point of fact, I expect that we shall get a bit of both these systems. If the service chiefs were offered a quarter of these men for twice as long, I believe that they would jump at the suggestion. It would be a far better system. Equality of sacrifice, although a splendid principle, does not work very efficiently in practice because sacrifices never can be equal. Equality of sacrifice here means taking from industry double the man hours needed by the forces. But when all this is said the Service Departments, having got themselves into this mess, I do not see how we can avoid the 18 months' period at this juncture. That is the only point on which I really disagree with what the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers) said on the Second Reading. I do not think that we can get out of the present muddle in 12 months. I think that it will take a bit longer and, much as I regret it, I believe that we have to accept this proposal at this juncture.
    3.45 p.m.
    Mr. Byers: Does the hon. and learned Member realise that in supporting this Bill, he is supporting a move from 12 months to 18 months for five years?
    Mr. Paget: I know that it is a maximum of 18 months, but there is nothing in the Bill which prevents lowering the period if it ceases to be required, and I think that it is absolutely essential to do so. In supporting the Bill as I think we must at this juncture, I would only do so on the basis of receiving an unqualified assurance from the Government that they will regard this as a temporary scheme, and that they will use the time they are buying so expensively to give us something better. That, I believe, to be essential. Conscription can be used to give us a reserve. It cannot be used to give us an efficient standing army.
    The Chairman: I would point out to the hon. and learned Gentleman that this is not a question of conscription or otherwise. The question before the Committee is whether the period shall be extended from 12 months to 18 months.
    Mr. Paget: That is what I was going on to say. We want our professional army
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    on one side and a shorter period of conscription on the other in order to create our reserve. Conscription cannot mix with a professional standing Army because it diverts that Army from its proper function of developing supreme efficiency upon which our safety in the initial stages of war depends. Look at our situation today. We have twice as large an Army as in 1938, maintained at four times the cost, and we are not capable of putting into the field today one-third of the forces which were available in 1938. That is the shocking picture today. In 1938, we could put 10 divisions into the field. Today we could put into the field perhaps two Infantry divisions, not a single armoured division, not a single airborne division—indeed, not a single division in this country. When there was trouble in Malaya, we had to send the Guards because there was no one else to send. That is what we are getting for our money, for our manpower and for our conscription. More than half our Army which ought to be serving our needs is immobilised, training conscripts.
    What we need is a professional Army, and if we had a professional Army untrammelled by conscripts, a quarter of a million men would be ample. That means that we have to find about 70,000 or 80,000 additional men. We can get these men if we are prepared to pay for them. What I would do first is this: I would, at this stage, operate a five years' engagement with seven years on the Reserve, and I would keep that going until we had got our numbers up. In order to get these men, I would offer a bonus of £500 to every man on coming out of the Army. In addition, I would offer a resettlement scheme which really would guarantee a good job, and, over and above that, I would offer to every married man coming out of the Army the guarantee of a house. In five years' time we shall have broken the back of the housing shortage, and young married men coming from the Forces will not be at all a bad housing priority.
    On this basis, I personally have no doubt at all that we can get the additional men, but if the Minister doubts that, let him put the question to selected groups of his present conscripts and see how many would accept that bargain. I believe that in two years we could get 70,000 or 80,000 men quite easily. I believe

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    that in addition we could pick and choose men on these terms because they are attractive enough. If we had a professional Army and Air Force untrammelled by conscripts, I think that we would not want more than 400,000 to 450,000 in both Services.
    What is the cost of my proposal? If we estimate that the average service throughout the whole of this Force is 10 years, that would mean a turnover of 40,000 or 45,000 a year. That is at a cost of £20 million to £22½ million. If we estimate that the average service works out at seven years, then the cost would be £27 million or £28 million. That is nothing like the cost of conscription. It is not even the cost of the additional six months. So far as I have been able to work it out—and my calculations are rough, as they are bound to be—the whole cost of this extra six months will be between £30 million and £40 million. That is purely in budgetary terms. It is not making any allowance for the loss to industry or, indeed, for the budgetary loss which is involved by preventing these people from being in industry where they earn taxable incomes. On budgetary terms, covering the six months' cost at between £30 million and £40 million, that is far more expensive than a £500 bonus which would give us every man that we want.
    Further, I would reduce the period of conscription to six months. We should do that as soon as we can; six months is quite long enough for basic training. In any event, collective training will have to be begun again when the Reservists are re-embodied. I do not say that when first re-embodied the man who has done 18 months will not be a bit better than the man who has done six months to begin with, but that difference will disappear long before finishing the collective training. As far as the reservist is concerned, any period over six months is really so much waste.
    Secondly—and I believe this is the most important point of all—we should keep the conscripts entirely separate in organisation from the professional Army. Form them into training battalions, which would be commanded by pensioner colonels, with pensioner company officers and pensioner senior N.C.Os., taking the
    44
    junior officers from O.T.Cs.—the six months men themselves—and the junior N.C.Os. from cadet corps. There would be primary training units, in which young energetic adjutants would be wanted. My adjutant was Oliver Leese—and he was a jolly good one, too. That is the sort of man we want; and he is the only man who need be called from the professional Army.
    In these circumstances the morale of the conscripts will be infinitely better. They will be in their own show——
    The Chairman: The hon. and learned Member is now going far beyond the purview of Clause 1. He appears again to be discussing the question of conscription and National Service, and suggesting conditions under which men shall serve. That is quite out of Order on the Question that this Clause stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Paget: With great respect, what I am discussing is surely this. I am saying that we want a shorter period of conscription; and I am going on to explain how we can have that shorter period of conscription. Surely, that must be in Order. I am saying that we can have that shorter period of conscription by having training battalions, and that that organisation will create among these six-months chaps a morale infinitely superior to their morale when mixed up with the long-service men. The shorter period of conscription I am asking for——
    Mr. Hopkin Morris: On a point of Order. Does not this Clause re-enact the principal Act of 1948; and, therefore, on the Question that the Clause stand part, are we not at liberty to raise the whole issue?
    The Chairman: Oh, no. This Clause amends the original Act, but it is certainly not open to the Committee to debate the whole question.
    Mr. Hopkin Morris: It surely does a little more than amend the Act. It also says that the Act shall be read in substitution.
    The Chairman: It is in substitution of certain of the terms of the principal Act. It is not in substitution of the whole of the principal Act.
    Mr. Paget: I shall not be many more minutes, depending of course on the number of interruptions.
    After the shorter period of conscription is completed the conscripts can be passed into the Territorial Army, where they become a Reserve. I believe that we need that Reserve so urgently that at the moment we ought to form a home guard from our present veterans. But perhaps that is outside the scope of this Clause, so I will not develop the point.
    We shall then have a professional Army which will be able to meet a blitzkrieg. We shall have a sort of fire brigade which can go promptly to deal with conflagrations before they spread. That is what we have not got now; and that is what this mixed system of conscription will never give us. We shall have cadres of really supremely efficient forces on which to expand in the event of war. We shall have a Class A Reserve from the Regular Army which, when the system gets working, will enable us to double the Regular Army at the outbreak of war; and behind that we shall have a Territorial Reserve from the conscripts, which will be merely garrison troops—and I do not think they can ever be more; but they will form a reservoir from which bodies can be drawn to fill out the cadres of the professional Army. I believe that to be the way to do it.
    Before concluding I would just say this to the Minister of Defence. I think that we have had a wretched tale of weakness and incompetence. The story of our Army at the present moment is quite shocking, and is what he has been warned about continuously from these benches during these past years. If he has not a better story to tell us when we get to the Estimates there will be a storm on these benches——
    The Chairman: What the hon. and learned Member is now saying really does not arise out of Clause 1.
    Mr. Paget: I am dealing with Clause 1, because I am dealing with the question of increasing conscription and how to use it, and I am telling——
    The Chairman: The hon. and learned Member was dealing with the Estimates at the moment I stopped him. I must ask him to restrict himself to the terms of Clause 1.
    Mr. Paget: With great respect, I was merely saying that unless——
    The Chairman: The hon. and learned Member need not say it again. I heard him quite well the first time.
    Mr. Paget: Without saying it again, I would just point out that I was endeavouring to indicate that, unless better use is made of Clause 1 between now and the Estimates than has been made of the conscription system which preceded that laid down in Clause 1, there will be a formidable storm on the benches behind the Minister, because nothing which has so far happened is not something about which we have been warning the Minister for two years.
    Mr. Swingler: I shall endeavour to keep strictly to this Clause, but I hope that before we part from it we shall hear something from the Minister of Labour, who, after all, is responsible for presenting this Bill. This Clause is the kernel of this amending Bill, and so far we have heard nothing from the Minister of Labour whose name appears at the head of the sponsors.
    In considering what is in this Clause we must go into some detail to examine the reasons why this amending legislation is introduced to increase the period from the 12 months inserted in the 1947 Act to 18 months. Why was the 12 months decided upon 18 months ago? I believe that it was decided upon, in the first place; because of the economic situation of the country; and in the second place, because it was considered to be the minimum possible period for the military training of National Service men. I do not see any change in our situation today to remove those reasons which were considered valid by the Minister of Defence when he accepted the 12 months' period in May 1947.
    In considering this Clause we must bear in mind that this is not the first amendment that has been made in the scheme decided upon in the Spring of 1947. I hope it is in Order to mention that the scheme presented for National Service in the Act we are now asked to amend—the 1947 Act, which was consolidated in 1948—has been amended by other means in the intervening period, the most important amendment being that the age of call-up has been raised,

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    and is being raised progressively despite the assurances that were given. At the same time there have been the deferments in the demobilisation scheme, and the Minister of Defence has also departed, to some extent, from what he said regarding inducements to volunteers.
    4.0 p.m.
    This Clause embodies the period of 18 months that was originally proposed, and it will, no doubt, receive a great deal of support from Members opposite. But I would point out to Members opposite that they have not, by any means, taken a consistent attitude with regard to this question, notwithstanding what was said by the Leader of the Opposition on the Second Reading of the Bill. They have also blown hot and cold on the question of the pace of demobilisation. Just before the National Service Act, 1947, was presented, when the strength of the Armed Forces was certainly well below the basic minimum of 1½ million men referred to by the Leader of the Opposition, a Member on the Opposition Front Bench was pleading for more manpower to be released from the Armed Forces because of the economic situation. That argument has also been used on several occasions by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler).
    I believe the economic reasons for retaining the 12-month period are as valid as they were in the Spring of 1947, and that the argument which was accepted then by the Minister of Defence, that it was possible to give military training within the 12-month period, is also valid. There are Members in this Committee who can argue that they always said a minimum period of 18 months was necessary for military training, but the Minister of Defence and the other Service Ministers cannot argue that, because they accepted, when the Act was passed, that a 12-month period was adequate to give military training to the National Service men. I want to hear from the Minister of Labour about this Clause, because I should like to know what improvements in the general manpower situation of the country have taken place, as compared with the Spring of 1947, which now make it possible for more manpower to be retained in the Armed Forces and for this longer period of military service to be imposed.
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    I have read the manpower statement in the Economic Survey for 1948, and I would draw the attention of the Minister of Labour to the fact that among the necessities laid down in the Economic Survey for 1948, relating to this question of the period of service and the amount of manpower in the Armed Forces, was the recruitment of 32,000 more coal miners and 100,000 more textile workers, as compared with the previous year. So far, as reported by the Minister, there have been recruited about 7,000 miners, instead of the 32,000, and about 30,000 textile workers, instead of the 100,000. There will be a considerable debit balance when the Minister of Labour comes to report on his scheme for recruiting additional manpower for the essential industries of the country.
    I believe, therefore, that the manpower situation, as far as essential industries of the country are concerned, is just as difficult and as problematical for the Minister of Labour as it was in the Spring of 1947, as also is the whole question of the balance of payments and the economic situation of the country. It still remains true to say that we must have the minimum possible period of military training, if we accept the principle of National Service, as I do, and that that minimum period should be 12 months. For these reasons, I hope that the Clause will be rejected.
    Mr. Gallacher: I very often notice that when good arguments are put from these benches, as they very often are, Ministers are very careful to dodge them. For instance, I have never heard better arguments used than the arguments of those who opposed this Clause and the other Clauses of this Bill the other night. They were very good arguments, but not one of them was dealt with by Ministers on the Government Front Bench. All of them were very successfully evaded. The best arguments I have heard on this question of 12 or 18 months—and it is not often that I have reason to commend the particular Member—were those of the Minister of Defence. I think everyone will agree with that, and that these very sound arguments have never been answered. I ask the Minister of Defence why, when he was speaking the other day, he did not deal with the very powerful arguments that were put by himself last year. Only the Minister

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    of Defence is capable of answering, in a clear and logical manner, the arguments of the Minister of Defence, and until he has answered the arguments, we ought not to be asked to grant this extension.
    How is it possible for Members on this side, having listened to the Minister of War talking about the appalling waste of manpower in the Army, to give powers for the Army to take more manpower? Let them clean up the waste before they ask for a further six months. That is the big job upon which they should be engaged. Not only should they clear up the waste, but they should give up commitments in which this country and our lads should never have been involved. As I said to the Prime Minister today, the Foreign Secretary gave a pledge when the General Election was being held that the lads would be brought home from Greece. What are our lads doing over there? Bring them home, and then we shall not need another six months.
    The Chairman: That question does not arise on this Clause.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: As I also desire to raise the same matter may I ask whether it is not proper and desirable that, in discussing what is now being asked for to meet our commitments, we should discuss our commitments and how they should be reduced, as to what extent we can limit 18 months' conscription by limiting our overseas commitments?
    Mr. Paget: Surely, when the Clause asks for a further six months for men to fulfil commitments, it is reasonable to say that instead of having the additional six months we should not have the commitments?
    The Chairman: It may be possible to mention commitments, but certainly not to discuss the merits of those commitments.
    Mr. Sydney Silvermanis not your Ruling, Major Milner, that it is wholly out of Order to discuss the Greece situation on its merits, but that it is perfectly in Order to say it would be possible to save the need for this extension if the men now in Greece were brought home?
    The Chairman: I think that might be possible.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I understand, Major Milner, that you have ruled out of Order any reference to Greece. Will references to Scotland be allowed?
    Mr. Gallacher: I think I am entitled to give vent to this simple statement, that if the Foreign Secretary and the Government had kept to the pledge given at that Box by the Foreign Secretary, there would be no need for this demand for an extra six months. It would be much better to allow the lads to be relieved from that six months, and that the Government and the Foreign Secretary should keep their pledge, than that we should have such a situation as we have here. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) said that the back of the housing programme would be broken in five years. At the rate they are going it will not be broken for 500 years, but if instead of the extra six months in the Army, we had these lads directed for an extra six months to building houses what an advantage it would be to the people of this country. It is not the Army and war, but houses and homes that people want.
    Take the question of cost. This extra six months will mean a lot of money, and yet when the question of an increase in pensions for the old folk was raised in this House there was no money available for that. How is it that we get a letter sent out telling hon. Members not to support the old age pensioners in their demand for pensions, but to support the question of this extra six months? I say to hon. Members on this side of the Committee that they are not showing too much courage in the support they are giving to the Government on this question.
    The Government first said that 18 months was sufficient. They were persuaded that 12 months was enough. So they changed from 18 months to 12 months. Then the Tories got after them, and kept pressing, and now they come away from 12 months and say it shall be 18 months. Everyone knows how willing and ready the Communists are to change their line. I ask hon. Members on this side to stand firm by the statement that was made when the Bill was introduced last year. Twelve months is quite enough—far too much from the point of

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    view of most hon. Members—and there is no justification whatever for this extra six months.
    4.15 p.m.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I do not propose to deal with Greece. I wish to deal with the question whether this Clause should stand part of the Bill. I believe it to be a thoroughly bad Clause in a thoroughly bad Bill. I am ashamed to see a Labour Government introducing a Bill entailing such a Clause. I can understand the Tory Opposition agreeing with the principle of conscription, but to me the Debate last week was mere shadow boxing. The real opposition to the Bill will come from the rank and file of the Labour Party in the country and from the people who object to their youth having to stay in the Army for 18 instead of 12 months. This was not in "Let Us Face the Future." No by-elections have been fought on this question. The Government are betraying the people of this country——
    Mrs. Leah Manning: There was no mandate for this.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I have heard arguments on this Clause described as a personal conflict between "Arsenic and Gold Lace"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Old Lace."]—"Arsenic and Old Lace," as epitomised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Horsham (Earl Winter-ton) and the Secretary of State for War. I do not know which is supposed to be "Arsenic" and which is supposed to be "Old Lace."
    The underlying idea of this Clause is that the boys must serve for 18 months instead of 12. When this controversy began there was a very interesting article in "John Bull" by that well known military expert, Captain Liddell Hart. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Why do hon. Members say, "Oh!"? When I dared to quote him on a previous occasion, Captain Liddell Hart was dismissed by the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) as a
    "fireside fusilier." I have been looking at his past record since then and I find that he was wounded in the first world war. It is just as unjust to call the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition a "fireside fusilier." But if Captain Liddell Hart is a "fireside fusilier" I do not
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    know what is to be said of the Secretary of State for War.
    The article in question is headed, "Conscription is a flop." If conscription is a flop—and this is the view of a gentleman who has not only been a military expert and a military writer for "The Times" and the "Daily Telegraph," but is also military editor of the Encyclopedia Britannica—surely that is a very good reason why we should not extend such a system. In this article, which appeared on 29th May this year, he writes, about this system that we are strengthening by this Clause:
    "When it was adopted and fastened on us, by Chamberlain in the post-Prague panic of April, 1939—as part of his sudden turn about, following the failure of his appeasement policy—his precipitate step was opposed by Attlee…."
    In this article this gentleman, who is read abroad, and read in the Kremlin as one of our great military experts, argues conclusively that from the point of view of military efficiency alone conscription has been an absolute failure so as——
    The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman must forgive me, but under the guise of dealing with the question of the extension from 12 to 18 months he appears to be dealing with the question of conscription generally, and that of course is not in Order.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: My line of argument is this, that if it is a bad and inefficient system for 12 months, that is a sound argument for not extending it to 18 months. It is from that point of view that other hon. Members in the Committee have seen the logic of raising that point in this way.
    I will leave Captain Liddell Hart alone. I will finish with him and turn to a military expert who will be listened to, perhaps, with a little more respect—General Giffard Martel. In an article in the "Daily Mail" for 1st September he said—and I am quite sure that if he were arguing about this Clause he would argue that the same points raised for 12 months are ample——
    The Chairman: I really cannot accept that. The hon. Gentleman must only adduce arguments relating to the extension from 12 months to 18 months, and not seek to put forward arguments on the general question of conscription.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I will say no more on this point except that General Giffard Martel, who is one of the leading exponents of tank warfare, is absolutely against the principle of extending the period of conscription from 12 to 18 months, especially as conscription has already proved such a failure. With the military experts arguing in this way, is it any wonder that those who have no pretensions or ambitions to be described as military experts should regard this as a bad Clause in a bad Bill?
    The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) put forward an alternative scheme. He argued that if the soldier were promised a house at the end of his service, that would be a better alternative than the one suggested in this Clause. I would point out to the hon. and learned Member certain practical difficulties with regard to that alternative. One of them is that, as far as Scotland is concerned, the housing problem about which he spoke——
    The Chairman: As the scheme to which the hon. Member is referring is not in the Bill, I do not think it can be discussed.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I would not have dreamed of mentioning this had it not been for the unfortunate arguments adduced by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton.
    This Bill is a betrayal of the ordinary man by a Labour Government, and I regret it. I believe that in pursuing this line the Government are advocating a policy which will become part of a general Coalition between the two parties. I would remind the Government of what happened last week. Not only did certain hon. Members go into the Division Lobby in opposition to this Clause, but there was a very large number of abstentions. I do not believe that the rank and file of the Labour Party want this Clause; I believe that it is strongly resented by them and that the Government would be wise to withdraw the Bill and to think out other methods of National Defence.
    Mr. Benn Levy: The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) pointed out—and I do not think anyone will contradict him—that this Measure will be received by the country without much enthusiasm, and will indeed be a source of unpopularity
    54
    to those who advocate it, particularly in the Labour movement. Of course, I would not suggest that the hon. Member for South Ayrshire would himself be deflected by that consideration, for if we believe it to be a desirable or, indeed, an unavoidable Measure, we should certainly not be deflected by that consideration either. Indeed the case which I want to put to the Committee this afternoon is that the proposed extension to 18 months is wholly deplorable, but that we have no alternative but to accept it. I would argue that it is wholly deplorable for several reasons, many of which have been ventilated either this afternoon or during the Second Reading Debate. In the first place, I very much regret the additional interference in individual lives caused by this Measure; I regret the delay caused to young men who are anxious to begin their careers, and to organise their lives.
    Secondly—and this point has been emphasised again and again, but cannot be over-emphasised—let us not forget for one moment that these additional six months mean a definite and grave setback to our economic recovery. I do not suggest for one moment that that consideration can have been absent from the mind of the Government, but it cannot be emphasised too often. Thirdly, I consider that this additional extension is deplorable because, in effect, it is playing the Russians' game. Let nobody suppose for one moment that this Bill is going to stampede Mr. Stalin into a mood of amenability. On the contrary, in so far as it is part of Kremlin policy to oppose Marshall Aid, and, therefore, to delay the consequent possibilities of Western recovery, this Bill helps that purpose. In other words, this Bill is a battle lost for us in the "cold war," and let us not interpret it in any other way.
    The fourth reason why I deplore this Bill is because I believe conscription should be regarded as a long-term measure. That was a point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). The purpose of training conscripts is in order to have a population that can be called upon if necessary to form a vast kind of army such as is needed nowadays in total war. I suggest that the principle ought to be accepted that it is uneconomic and in- effectual to plan conscription for short-term purposes that should properly be

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    the function of a Regular Army. This extension of six months is, in point of fact, directed precisely to such purposes. The necessity for the extension is because the Regular Army is inadequate for the purpose of current commitments.
    How much training is needed for a conscript is a matter about which there can be no absolute answer. There can be many opinions. Neither the War Office nor even the platoon of brigadiers who assist our debates on defence can give a really authoritative answer for the simple reason that a man requires more training for one Service than for another, more training for one trade inside a particular Service than for another, and that one man, as an individual, requires more training than another. Therefore, all that we can say—and this is relevant to the extension—is that a minimum of six months is probably necessary for a basic training, and that, after that six months, there begins to operate a law of diminishing return: the utility of training after that period, although sometimes useful, in certain cases begins to diminish.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is that why my hon. Friend wants a longer period?
    Mr. Levy: No, that is not why I want a longer period, but just at the moment I am very busy making my hon. Friend's speech for him.
    Mr. Silverman: My hon. Friend is doing it very well, and I thank him very much.
    Mr. Levy: It is important that my hon. Friend's case should be made, and that those who support the Bill should not seem to be doing so in a light or negligent way, or give the impression that they are ignorant of it. If we think it is a deplorable Bill, we can only be supporting it from necessity. The necessity is simply this. We are told in terms of simple arithmetic that, in so far as an equivalent of three or four divisions of the Regular Army are at present being wasted in training conscripts, there are, partly as a result, not enough men in the Regular Services to carry out our commitments.
    If, by returning those Regulars to active service through suspending conscription altogether, we did have sufficient troops, I should be advocating not an additional six months but the complete
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    suspension of conscription altogether. Unfortunately, we are given to understand that even the suspension of conscription and the resulting return to active service of three or four divisions would not be sufficient for the purpose. The only alternative left to us therefore is the one which I suggest we have to accept.
    4.30 p.m.
    I readily admit that this argument assumes that these somewhat nebulous commitments which we accept half blindly, and which are rather vaguely referred to by my right hon. Friend, are inevitable. But you, sir, have given a Ruling that we must not discuss them in too great detail. I do not want to go through all of them, but at least one of them, namely Greece, could surely be dispensed with. The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), however, has been completely disingenuous in suggesting that this saving of 5,000 men would solve the problem. Of course, it would not do anything of the kind. In discussing this problem I must not—and do not wish to—range over the whole field of foreign policy, but it might be in order to say that, although I think there is little purpose in canvassing might-have-beens, some of us on these benches have always argued that there would be a multiplication of commitments and frictional spots if our foreign policy did not succeed in establishing three major groups of nations instead of two armed camps. This Debate, whatever else it is, is a melancholy commentary upon the success of our foreign policy. And incidentally there is surely a lesson to be learned here, since foreign policy is the one department of Government activity which has earned the consistent support and approval of the Conservative Party.
    If it is true that these commitments are necessary and that they can only be provided for in the way suggested, I still say that it is of the first importance that we should accept the additional six months only with the worst possible grace. We should accept them with a bad grace and conditionally, and we must ask the Government to reassure us most solemnly that they intend energetically to reduce the conscription period at the earliest possible moment, and that they intend therefore to recruit the Regular Army with much more vigour than has been displayed so far.

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    There are only three ways of doing it. One is to improve conditions. Something has been done in that direction, but the process must be accelerated. The second way is related to the question of pay. We have already had an advance in the announcement made only last week, but I venture to predict that advance will not be large enough to do the trick. We are given to understand that the cost of these increases will be about £12 million or £12½ million a year. Even if we doubled that figure we should still be in pocket as compared with the cost of this additional six months. These six months will cost, according to my calculation, six or seven times £12 million. My calculation is based upon figures which the Minister of Defence gave to the House when the three months' delay in the demobilisation rate was announced. He told us that the three months' delay would cost us about £8 million for six months for about 80,000 men. The figure given us now is for an average of 200,000 men held for an additional six months. I work that out as coming to an annual rate of £80 million a year. [Interruption.] If that figure is wrong, then the figure given by the Minister of Defence must also be wrong.
    In addition to that £80 million, there is another calculation to be made, covering the loss to the national income by the withdrawal of so many men from industry. If we are withdrawing 200,000 men or about 1 per cent. of the working population, and that population produces wealth which is equivalent to about £8,000 million a year, then the withdrawal will cost us another £80 million a year. The total cost of the additional six months, therefore, in round figures would be about £160 million a year. For a small proportion of that sum it would be incredible if we could not have an adequate Regular Army.
    To sum up, I would ask the Minister to accept in principle the differentiation in function which I have suggested between the conscript and the Regular Army and to keep the definition very clear in his mind. Secondly, I would ask him definitely to pledge himself to reduce the conscript Army and to bring up the Regular Army at the earliest possible moment. Thirdly, I would ask him to watch the new pay code which he has just instituted, to see what effect it has upon recruitment, and to revise it very
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    early if his observations lead him to suppose that revision is necessary.
    Mr. Frank Byers: I do not intend to go into the argument which I put to the House on Second Reading. I shall confine my remarks to the question of a 12 or an 18 months' period. Practically everyone who has spoken has regarded the 18 months as a deplorable necessity. I fully understand the attitude of Members of the party opposite. They recognise that the Government have lost a period of two years or 18 months, and that the Government should have re-orientated our defence policy earlier and been much more generous in their treatment of the Regular Forces, thus stimulating recruiting. Nevertheless, it is their duty to support the Government and try to get them out of the difficulty. I understand that, but I cannot understand people thinking that that is the attitude of anybody in the Opposition.
    I say quite frankly to the Committee that we have to put our feet down, the Opposition's feet at least, on this question of Defence. We have to say to the Government: "You must do something now and quickly in order to build up professional Armed Forces." Why we should give the Government this extra six months' leeway I cannot see. We now have 13 months in which to establish a policy to be put into operation quickly and to get more volunteers. The Secretary of State shifted the whole basis of the Government's case in his speech on the Second Reading. I was glad he did. He said:
    "If we have a large enough Regular Army there would be no need for conscription."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 2126.]
    That was not the case put forward 18 months ago by the Government or by the Minister of Defence when he started out on his speech on Wednesday. The Liberals have been saying it, and so have hon. Members above the Gangway recently, although I know that a great number of them have been thinking about it for some time. The fact is that once we have built up our professional Forces we shall not have to depend upon conscription.
    Why should we give the Government a blank cheque for the next five years?

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    Why not put them up against it, and tell them they must come to the House within the next three months with a scheme for building up the voluntary element in the Armed Forces, instead of these fiddling little schemes like attempting to remedy existing hardships by giving officers extra allowances and subjecting them to Income Tax. That is not the way to get extra recruits. I can understand loyal hon. Members opposite wanting to support the Government at this difficult time, but who will force the Government to come forward with a proper policy? By giving them the 18 months period, we give them an excuse for doing nothing about the professional Armed Forces for the next five years. That is why I want to see a combined Opposition vote against the Third Reading of the Bill. That would make the Government sit up and take notice. It would be a message to them from the Armed Forces of the country that they want the priority to increase the voluntary element. If we pass this Bill the Government can laugh and say, "We have got through that one and have another five years to think about it."
    We were told that the total for the Army would be 345,000 in March, 1949. That was the figure given in the last Estimates. The Minister of Defence said that if we had a 12-month period, on 1st January, 1950, there would be 195,000 Regulars and only 110,000 conscripts. If that total for the Army is correct—we have never been told that it has been changed—on the basis of an 18 months' period we shall have 195,000 Regulars and about 160,000 conscripts. Is that correct? Mathematically it is correct, but we can never tell with the Government. If that is so, we have to provide 50,000 more men, volunteers or conscripts on the basis of a 12 months' period. That is the measure of the Government's task with the Army. Are the Government prepared to work out a scheme now in order to secure 50,000 more volunteers rather than use conscripts? If they will do that by 1st January, 1950, we do not need the 18 months' period. That argument is supported by the Secretary of State for War who has said that if we can get the volunteers we do not need the conscripts.
    I suggest that we have to make a stand and ask the Government to produce a policy to provide a much higher percentage
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    of volunteers and a much lower percentage of conscripts. If we pass the Clause and the Bill there is no reason why the Government should go ahead and design that policy. That is why we are opposing the whole of the Bill. We feel that the Government must be put up against it.
    I hope that hon. Members on all sides of the Committee will realise how the House has changed its attitude of mind about conscription. It is a different attitude from that of 18 months ago when the Liberal Party talked this sort of thing. We were talking it in the country and were laughed at. We were told that we were trying to weaken the Armed Forces. Now we have a consensus of opinion that conscription itself is weakening the Armed Forces. The Government must be forced to make up their minds now and come forward with a comprehensive policy for more volunteers, and then we shall not need an extra six months.
    4.45 p.m.
    Mr. Pickthorn: I hope the Committee, and especially the Treasury Bench, will be a little indulgent to me. Hon. Gentlemen will know that it is not always one's own fault if one cuts a Debate. I have arrived just recently and I have to leave the Chamber rather soon, and I apologise. I generally try to attend the Debates in which I participate.
    I want to ask two questions which are closely connected with each other, and which my hon. Friends and I have debated with the Minister of Defence at considerable length in the past one way or another but about which we had no explanation at all on Second Reading. I think that this is the proper place to ask for an explanation on the two points I have in mind, which, indeed, are connected with each other. One is the problem of finding among our conscripts and putting upon the Reserve as officers those of the conscripts most likely to make good subalterns if there should be a warlike emergency within the next five or ten years. Hon. Gentlemen who have served in the Armed Forces will agree with the Army proverb that there never was a bad regiment with good officers, and they will also agree with the corollary of that, that the greatest interest of the private soldier, apart from getting his

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    rations every day, is that he should have competent and decent officers. If we are to have rapid expansion of forces at the beginning of a war——
    The Chairman: These remarks cannot possibly arise on Clause 1.
    Mr. Pickthorn: I think so, with respect, Major Milner. If you will permit me one minute longer, I think you will see the point of the argument. The point of the argument is this. Let us take x as the number of months for which a conscript is called up, whether it is eight or 80. It is extremely important that the authorities should be looking during those months for the people they want to be officers later on, and it is extremely important, from the other angle, that the persons conscripted should not think that x is likely to be lengthened and that they are likely to be held for x plus months if they look like turning into apprentice officers or cadets or anything of that sort. I think that the relevance is really clear.
    The Chairman: I am sorry, but I do not really see the precise relationship between the hon. Gentleman's arguments and the question of the extension from 12 to 18 months. If he will make that clear, no doubt he will be in Order.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Surely the connection is plain enough. The connection is this. If we expand the Army in war-time, it will be a bad Army unless we have upon our Reserve a good selection of officers from among the people who were conscripts for x months, whatever the x was. The way of getting that will vary according to whether x is eight days of eight years, to take an extreme case. The variation will not be so obvious if it is as between 12 and 18 months, but it will be there.
    The right hon. Gentleman has experience of it at present in the period of something like 18 months now required for these men to get a commission. What I want to know is what plans he has made for finding the right men and getting them on the Reserve on the assumption of 12 months, which is still the assumption until the Bill becomes law. What are the plans? Are there regulations which have been published and which I ought to know about, or if not, were there recgulations on the basis of 12 months which have been in draft,
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    and if so, could they be indicated to us? What alterations are now necessary in the plans of the right hon. Gentleman in order that that problem shall be properly dealt with on a basis of 18 months as the normal conscription period instead of 12 months as the normal period? I am convinced that on the human side of organising an Army this is a thing that matters most.
    I pass to my second point. The second point I put is in terms of young men wishing to go to the universities—not that I have any great tenderness for any young men wishing to go to the universities or that I have ever tried to get them off any of the hardships or difficulties their coevals have been going to face, as the right hon. Gentleman will bear witness. Here again it makes a very great difference. University courses all begin in October every year and it is a matter of great importance that people who are called up should get out in the next but one September.
    There will be very great interference with education and the supply of Reserve officers unless some way can be found of dealing with that. Clearly, this is quite different under an 18 months period from what it was under a 12 months period. We get a spill over into a new year and therefore a risk of people being held up longer. There was authority for regulations under Section 15 of the present operative statute to cover this point. I wish the right hon. Gentleman to tell the Committee what regulations have been framed or, if none have been framed, what regulations are in draft on that point. What changes of plan are necessary in order to make the thing work under the new system?
    That is the technical and minor way of putting it, but the general and major way of putting the question is this: Is the right hon. Gentleman now—because I think he was not when we had those all-night Debates as fully convinced of this as I thought he ought to be—is he now fully convinced that we shall interfere both with the efficiency of the Army and with the morale and good will of the Army, which depends on subalterns more than on any other single rank even including sergeants—is he now convinced that we shall not get that right unless we can work in the people who have to go back and spend three, four or five

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    years on academic and professional qualifications, and not merely leave them to work this in as best they can?
    The present arrangement has been quite unsystematic for professional people: Dentists, doctors and clergymen, just as in the manual field farm workers and miners have been exempted; they have done what they liked, for their professional training, and come in at a convenient moment. There are other professions, not so obviously of immediate interest and value to each one of us but, in the long run, just as necessary to society, where there have been immense difficulties and hardships imposed by a two or even three-year interruption. In time of peace, that any people should start their university careers three years later than normal, is a terrific additional tax. Can we be certain that this will not happen to such young men—whether or not they wish to become qualified as officers—that they will not be held more than 18 months, that their call-up will be adjusted e.g. so that they may go in six months earlier; or, at any rate, so adjusted that they may come out in August or September?
    These are not matters which one can discuss in detail very well here. Really they are not matters susceptible to amendment and, therefore, I did not seek to put down an Amendment. But they are matters about which, now, there is no excuse—there was an excuse two or three years ago—if right hon. Gentlemen have not now got exact plans how these things are to be done. Unless they can convince the Committee that those plans are exact and not unreasonable, they have, in my submission, no right to this Clause.
    Mr. S. Silverman: It has been said in the course of the Debate that the principle of conscription was conceded 18 months ago and is not in issue on this Bill or on this Clause. That, of course, is true, but it is also true that this argument about whether the period of conscription should be 12 or 18 months raged over the Debates which the House and the Committee had about the principal Act, and that a great many people who on that occasion voted for the Government, did so on the express understanding that the period of conscription would not be 18 months but 12 months. If on that occasion the Government had indicated that they would stand by
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    their original proposal that the period of compulsion should be 18 months, the number of Members who voted against the principal Act would have been much larger than it was. Indeed, it is scarcely too much to say that, but for the indication of the Government on the Second Reading of the principal Act that they would themselves propose an Amendment to reduce the period from 18 months to 12, it is even doubtful whether the House of Commons would have accepted the Bill at all. My hon. Friend the Member for Slough——
    Mr. Levy: And Eton.
    Mr. Silverman: And Eton. Sometimes I think he is rather more the Member for Eton than the Member for Slough. However, I think I am right in saying that he was one of the Members who took an active part in persuading the Government 18 months ago to reduce the period then contemplated of 18 months to 12 months.
    Mr. Levy Mr. Levy indicated dissent.
    Mr. Silverman: He was one of a group who did so. There were also the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Cross-man), the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo), and the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt). I think I am right when I say that they were generally known as the "Keep Left" group. With the honourable exception of my Friend the Member for Reading, who remains of the opinion he expressed 18 months ago—at least, so I understand—the others seem now to have demonstrated that the words "Keep Left" are not so much a political slogan as a marching song.
    Mr. Levy: The hon. Member has made quite a number of misstatements already in the course of his speech. First, the "Keep Left" group took no corporate view and made no corporate decision on this matter. Secondly, I myself was not one of those who were prominent in persuading the Government to make the reduction. Thirdly, it is completely libellous for him to suggest that I represent Eton more thoroughly than I represent Slough. My constituents have no such illusion. I might have replied that the hon. Member represents Colne more than he represents Nelson.
    Mrs. Manning: It makes no difference.
    Mr. Silverman: I readily accept all the disavowels of my hon. Friend. In doing so, might I remind him that there is rather more difference between Eton and Slough than there is between Nelson and Colne? I am sure my hon. Friend does his best to represent all his constituents, but I rather think that his speech today would be more satisfactory in some portions of his constituency than in others.
    To return to my point, although my hon. Friend says that he personally was not involved, I understand that he does not contest my point that a great many people voted for the major Bill 18 months ago expressly on the understanding that the period would be 12 months and not 18.
    Mr. Levy: And that certain other things would be done in the meantime.
    Mr. Silverman: Certainly, but all we are concerned with at the moment is whether we ought now to agree to extend the period from 12 months to the original 18 months. It seems to me quite clear that all the arguments which weighed with people in opposing the principal Measure, must apply with even greater force to a proposal to extend the period. If it is wrong in principle to compel people to serve in peace time, then it must be rather more wrong to compel them for 18 months than for 12 months. If it is a dangerous thing, at a moment of economic crisis, to withdraw a generation of young people from industry and keep them out of it for 12 months, then it must be even more mischievous to keep them out of industry for 18 months. I can think of no argument which is relevant on the main principle of conscription which does not apply with even greater force to a proposal to extend the period by six months.
    5.0 p.m.
    I hope that, without offence, I may refer again to my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Levy). He made, I thought, an extremely eloquent and convincing speech—[An HON. MEMBER: "Against the Bill."]—against the Bill. I do not know what is the argument which anyone could advance against all that part of his speech in which he sought to demonstrate that the Bill was wholly deplorable, What I could not understand about his speech was its conclusion. I understand
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    his argument, that in spite of all the mischief, all the danger and all the inconvenience of this Measure, it may, nevertheless, be necessary; and therefore, if it is necessary, in spite of all the cost and all the mischief, one must perforce accept it. That was his argument. But I think his argument broke down utterly in that he never for one moment sought to explain why it was necessary to increase the period from 12 to 18 months. I know he said—I made a note at the time—that it was in order to meet our current requirements, but he did not explain what they were.
    Mr. Levy: We are precluded from doing that by the terms of the Debate.
    Mr. Silverman: I am not the Chairman, but I venture to doubt that. Nobody was precluded on Second Reading. The Secretary of State for War, in fact, did so. He made a very remarkable speech in winding up the Second Reading Debate. He dealt most faithfully and effectively with the Opposition. He made one of the best debating speeches I have ever heard in the House of Commons; but the most remarkable thing about his speech was that he could not, in the space of the 45 minutes available to him, find even two minutes in which to explain why it was necessary to increase the period from 12 to 18 months. As that was the only thing the Bill was about, it was a rather remarkable omission. At that time nobody was precluded from saying what were the commitments. I hope I am not out of Order, Sir, in saying that, so far as anybody here knows, our commitments today are not greater than they were 18 months ago. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are less."] Eighteen months ago we still had forces in India and Palestine. We have not got them there now. In what way have our current commitments increased in the last 18 months?
    Mr. Leslie: Malaya.
    Mr. Silverman: Malaya? They have not increased in Malaya.
    Mr. Leslie: We had no troops there 18 months ago.
    Mr. Silverman: Is my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Leslie) now saying that we are increasing the period

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    of conscription from 12 to 18 months. beginning on 1st January, 1950, in order to meet our commitment in Malaya?
    Mr. Leslie: That was one of the commitments.
    Mr. Silverman: No doubt the hon. Member will make his speech if he wants to. I should have thought that either our commitment in Malaya will have been successfully discharged long before the Bill comes into operation, or it will never be discharged at all and the men will be back home. For my part, I prefer the second possibility to the first. In any case the increase in the period of conscription from 12 to 18 months under this Bill can have no bearing at all upon our present commitment in Malaya. Even if I am wrong, however, and we bring Malaya into the overall picture—even if I concede that point to my hon. Friend—we are still left, on balance, with the conclusion that, even including Malaya and supposing it has a bearing upon the Bill, our current overall commitments are substantially less today than they were 18 months ago.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: They should be, if they are not.
    Mr. Silverman: They should be, if they are not. We have to deal with the actual facts. If anyone were to say that he knew what was the increased commitment, we should want to know from what source he had derived his information, because no such information has been given either to the Committee or to the House. If anybody relies upon increased commitments today as compared with 18 months ago, he will have to rely upon his inner conscience, because no information is available.
    Mr. Levy: The information we have been given is that the commitments are far heavier, not necessarily than 18 months ago, but heavier than was expected to be the case today.
    Mr. Silverman: Even then, one would want to know how and why. What I say to my hon. Friend—and I am sure he will concede it is a reasonable point for me to make—is that if we are prepared to swallow this Measure on its merits, then commitments have nothing to do
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    with it. If, on the other hand, it is regarded as a bad Measure to which we give our support only because of dire necessity, then we must be quite clear what is the dire necessity, and the facts and figures which make the necessity dire ought to be equally available to all of us. No such facts and figures have ever been made available to us. It may well be that what has happened in the past 18 months is not an increase in commitments at all, but a general deterioration in the international situation as a whole.
    Mr. Irving: That is the point.
    Mr. Silverman: It is remarkable how often the point changes. It looks as though some people are so determined to have this period increased from 12 to 18 months that they do not care what the point or the reason is, and when it has been shown that the point or the basis of the increase so far advanced has not been demonstrated, there is somebody always ready to come forward with some new hypothesis and basis.
    Mr. Hale: Is the hon. Member really suggesting that the retrograde international situation has not been put forward as one of the principal grounds for this Measure, and that it is not upon that argument that many of us are reluctantly voting for a Measure for which we should not otherwise vote?
    Mr. Silverman: I heard the Minister of Defence open the Debate on Second Reading and I heard the Secretary of State for War close that Debate, and think I am entitled to say that, if I am looking for the Government's reasons, I prefer to take them from the Government Front Bench rather than from my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale). The Government did not give those reasons. They could not have given those reasons. No one from the Front Bench, at any rate, has put forward the proposition that it is necessary now to increase the period from 12 months to 18 months because of the deterioration in international relations during the interval. Had anybody done so, I would have referred him again to the most effective reply to that argument which my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough gave in his speech today. He

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    ought to take my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham into the Corridor and explain the point to him. If my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham is really voting for this Clause and for the Bill on that assumption, and my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough is voting for it on the opposite assumption, their arguments cancel each other out, and both ought to go with me in the Lobby and oppose the Clause. We really ought not to play with this matter.
    Mr. Hale: Is not my hon. Friend playing with the subject? He has spent 20 minutes replying to his own rhetorical points with rhetorical observations, but he knows quite well that no Member of the Front Bench could say that we are increasing the period vis-à-vis any particular aspect of the international situation. He knows the rapidly deteriorating international situation is an essential factor.
    Mr. Silverman: My hon. Friend must not get angry with me——
    Mr. Hale: I am not in the least angry.
    Mr. Silverman: —otherwise we might quarrel.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I thought legal men did not get angry.
    Mr. Silverman: The last person with whom I would quarrel, or attempt to quarrel, is my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham. I opposed the principal Measure and gave my reasons, and I am opposing this Bill and am merely giving my reasons and trying to examine the reasons given by friends of mine in this House who accept my general approach to these matters, but who, nevertheless, feel compelled to vote with the Government on this occasion. I am very sorry that my hon. Friend finds my analysis of their reasons, and my seeming to see a conflict between their reasons, so irritating. That is not my fault. If the analysis is wrong he will be able to demonstrate how it is wrong. I say that, as far as I know, the Government have not put forward any case which we can examine, or which will bear any kind of analysis, for increasing the period from 12 to 18 months Therefore, it seems to me that all those who are against conscription in peace-time will vote against the Clause and all those who were in favour of conscription on the Government's
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    undertaking to reduce the period to 12 months ought to vote against the Clause. All those who feel that the extended cost of this Clause is so great that it cannot be supported, except on proof of dire necessity, ought also to vote against the Clause, because no dire necessity—indeed, no necessity at all—has been demonstrated by anyone.
    Mr. A. R. W. Low: The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has carried on quite a quarrel with his hon. Friends sitting two and three places away from him and I was getting very sorry for the hon. Member for North Eastern Derby (Mr. H. White) who sits between the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne and the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale).
    The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne did not surprise us when he told us the real reason why, 18 months ago, the maximum period came down so suddenly from 18 months to 12 months, and if I had to follow some of his arguments in detail I should detain the Committee for too long. Perhaps I should content myself with reminding the Minister of Defence that it is no good trying to compromise with people who have not the same aims as oneself. I believe the reason why the right hon. Gentleman has come to the Committee with this Clause is that without it we cannot have strong Defence Forces. He realises that the real trouble is that the Army, particularly, has got into a mess because of the quick reduction from the two years' service, which men are now serving in the Forces to 12 months' service, which will stand unless this Clause comes into operation from 1st January.
    5.15 p.m.
    I wish to make a point in connection with the observations of the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers) who unfortunately is not in his place, although I see two of his Liberal colleagues present. I think he was guilty of the Liberal fallacy in Defence Debates that because we may aim at no conscription in the active forces, in peace-time—which is my aim—we must prevent the Army, Navy and Air Force from being as strong as they ought to be. He seemed to me to give no argument against passing this Clause. We may share his aim and also share the view, which no doubt the Minister of Defence will put to us, that

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    18 months' service is now essential. I see nothing conflicting between those two points of view.
    I do, however, think that the Liberal Party, particularly the hon. Member for North Dorset, ought to try to think out more clearly the problem which faces us at the moment. He and other hon. Members are apt to think of Service manpower merely in terms of numbers. It is quite wrong to do some multiplications and additions and to suppose that 110,000 men serving 18 months instead of 12 months will produce 150,000 trained men. There is a difference between a trained man and a recruit and the Liberal Party, who think that merely by getting 100,000 or 50,000 Regular recruits at once we are getting trained men, are making a great mistake. So is any hon. Member who thinks in that way. The problem which all the Forces have to face at the moment is the lack of trained men. A man who has done 18 months' service, or even 12 months' service, as a National Service man is at present more valuable to the Army, Navy and Air Force than a raw recruit, even though he may be a Regular recruit.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell)The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell) indicated assent.
    Mr. Low: I think I carry the right hon. Gentleman with me.
    Mr. Paget: Will not many of those recruits be trained, in fact, from the 18 months and the 12 months?
    Mr. Low: Of course they will. I think the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) understands what will in fact happen. It will be much easier for the Government to reduce the number of National Service men rather than to reduce the period during which they are asked to serve. If the object is to get more trained men, as the number of Regular troops goes up they will find it easier to reduce the number of National Service men they call up, rather than the length of the period for which they call the men up.
    I wish to reinforce observations I have heard from various sides of the Committee and to ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us whether he is aiming at an all-Regular Army, an all-Regular R.A.F. and an all-Regular
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    Royal Navy for active force purposes. I do not ask him to give the answer in regard to the training of Reservists, but I should like a positive answer in regard to the active forces.
    Mr. Mikardo: The speech of the hon. Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) must have been very welcome to the Government Front Bench because it is the only speech this afternoon not directed either straightforwardly or indirectly against the objects of this Clause which seeks to increase the period of service from 12 months to 18 months. The reason why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War indicated assent to the views of the hon. Member with such zest was that it must have been a great comfort to him to have some sugar after all the pills he has been swallowing since half past three.
    Mr. Shinwell: My hon. Friend is quite wrong. My view was that the hon. and gallant Member seemed to understand the case.
    Mr. Mikardo: I will not go into that, but I am bound to say that it appeared to me that my right hon. Friend was enjoying the experience, for the first time in two hours, of not being disagreed with. He was obviously enjoying it a great deal.
    I have listened to every word of every one of the speeches today and I heard every word of every one of the speeches made in the Second Reading Debate last Wednesday. All the speeches but one today, and many of those which were made in the Second Reading Debate, adduced some reasons against the raising of the period of national service from 12 months to 18 months. One of those reasons, which was put forward by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), and by some other hon. and gallant Members, is that this increase in the period of service will make the Forces inefficient. I will not enter into a discussion upon that for the very good reason that I am not qualified to do so.
    Many of the other reasons put forward against the increase of the period of service proposed in this Clause appear to me to be, whether valid or not, irrelevant as reasons for opposing this Clause. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) said that the

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    Clause was bad because it would be unpopular, which seems to me to be inadequate reason for opposing it.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I hope that my hon. Friend will not persist in such a travesty of what I actually said. I said that, in passing, but I adduced reasons why the Clause should be opposed.
    Mr. Mikardo: I do not wish to misquote my hon. Friend, but that is what he appeared to me to be saying.
    Others have opposed amending the period of service on pacifist grounds, and though many of us do not agree with them we respect their sincerity, but they are grounds which are relevant in considering the fact of national service but not the length of national service. Some have opposed the increase as a means of expressing disagreement with the Government's foreign policy and the commitments which have arisen therefrom. It seems to me that this is not the right and logical place to do that, however much one wants to disagree with the Government's foreign policy. One hon. Member condemned the extension on the grounds that it was bad for the morals of 18-year-old boys. My own experience in this matter is that 18-year-old boys are much less likely to be morally seduced than some 40-year-olds, and on the whole are generally quite capable of looking after themselves.
    Finally, my hon. Friends the Members for Stafford (Mr. Swingler) and Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), among others, have argued that this extension must now be wrong because it was argued to be wrong 18 months ago.
    Mr. S. Silverman: My point was not that it is wrong now because it was argued to be wrong then, but because no case whatever has been made out for saying that what was wrong then is right now.
    Mr. Mikardo: That is just the point that I am trying to make, that a thing which was the case in the spring of 1947 might well cease to be the case in the autumn of 1948. One really ought not to say, therefore, that for the reasons which were given against the extension some 18 months ago the extension is not now needed.
    Having said that, I wish to say that in the same way that I cast a vote against
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    the Second Reading, I propose to cast a vote against this Clause, and for two reasons which have scarcely been mentioned in the course of the Debate. The first of these is that in my view this extension will defeat the purpose which it sets out to serve. The second reason is that the purpose which it sets out to serve can be served in a much simpler and much better way.
    Let me deal first with the contention that this extension of this Clause will defeat its own purpose. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne became involved in an argument with some other hon. Members about what was supposed to be the real purpose behind this Clause. The Minister of Defence said something about this in moving the Second Reading last Wednesday. It is time we stopped being mealymouthed about the thing and said quite plainly what some people seem to want to say all the time in anagrammatic phrases like cross-word clues. The purpose of this extension is to show a front of military preparedness against the Russians. What this extension does is precisely to play into the hands of the Russians by playing their own game and by playing it on the ground upon which they can always beat us. It is playing their game by weakening our economic position and above all by weakening our ability to play a leading part in welding Western Europe together as a coherent political and economic force.
    The Russians have a great deal more manpower to play about with than we have. If we are to sit at a table with them at this silly poker game, with one side trying to bluff the other, and with each player shoving some manpower chips into the middle of the table each time to support his bluff, they have a lot more manpower chips to push into the middle of the table than we have. If they want to carry out the nefarious purposes which some hon. Members and some others think that they have in view—I make no comment on them—all that they have to do is to keep on cooking up one scare after another which will put us in a panic so that we shall divert more and more of our manpower and materials into military purposes, lower our economic standards, lower our standard of living, and create what we have

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    never had in this country, a really powerful, effective Communist force arising out of the lowering of the standard of living.
    The Russians are in a very strong position in France and in Italy without having fought any war against those two countries. They have done it entirely through the lowering of living standards, which has encouraged and in fact created an effective Communist movement. That has always been the attitude of the Kremlin to France and Italy. In passing this Bill with this Clause included we are making it easy for the Kremlin to adopt just the same attitude to us as they have adopted towards France and Italy. We are giving them, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Levy) said, a bloodless victory, a victory in the "cold war."
    There have been one or two references to the economic cost of this Clause, to the many ways in which this increase in the manpower of the Services represents a drag upon our economy. I hope that I may be forgiven if I say that it sometimes seems to me that we do not pay sufficient attention to this drain on our economy which is represented by the increase of manpower in the Services, and that we do not try to understand the many ways in which that drain is made up. In the first place 100,000 or so extra men will be put in the Forces. In the second place, for every 100 men put into uniform, between 40 and 45 factory workers are engaged in the most direct way in making clothing, shoes and armaments for those 100 men in uniform.
    But in addition to those people directly engaged there is a whole host of what the economists call multipliers at work, a whole host of people indirectly engaged either for the whole of their time or for part of it in meeting the needs of the Armed Forces, and whose work is to that extent diverted from productive industry. Every coalminer who this week is hewing coal which will go to heat barracks is as much lost to the mining industry, and to the service of industry in general, as if he himself were in uniform. Every time a train carrying military supplies runs along a railway line it occupies track space and track time which ought to be occupied by a goods train carrying export goods to a
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    port from which they can be sent overseas. Every time a civilian telephonist puts through a military telephone call that is one fewer civilian call which can go from one factory or office to another to serve the export market.
    5.30 p.m.
    We here may not always understand the enormous economic cost involved in all this, but the workers in our factories understand it well enough. I do not know how anyone can go to a factory—as I try to do sometimes—and say, "Come on, boys. The Prime Minister has asked you for another 10 per cent. to support the nation's recovery, to hasten our day of economic independence," when such a large proportion of that 10 per cent. is being diverted to purely non-productive purposes.
    May I quote as an example something which happened to me a few months ago, in the summer? I was in a large foundry, examining the work done there. It was a blazing hot day and, as Members will know, a foundry on such a day can be a hot, dirty and uncomfortable place. It was all the more uncomfortable and more difficult on account of the fact that the foundry was badly undermanned. More than half the workers were over 45, and one-third were above 55. The men at this foundry were working hard in bad conditions. Yet less than a mile away there was an Army camp in which several hundred fit and healthy young men were lying in the sun. Ostensibly they were being trained, but they complained that their training time was negligible. When the men in the foundry saw these young soldiers walking past they said, "We could do with some of those chaps here." How can factory workers be asked for extra effort when they see that sort of thing happening?
    Mr. Blackburn: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we obtained last year, more dollars from Malaya than from the whole of Britain's industrial output, and that unless we have troops there to prevent Malaya being overrun by Communists it will be impossible to maintain and increase this business development?
    Mr. Mikardo: At the time of which I am speaking the Malaya situation had not developed. I am quite sure the hon. Gentleman is willing to give lessons to Members of the House on how to talk

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    to factory workers and on any other subject, but I do not require them from him. What I was saying was in support of my contention that this Clause will defeat the purpose which it sets out to serve.
    I want now to say a few words about the second argument against this Clause. Its purpose could better be achieved in another way, by getting 18 months' value out of 12 months' service by the better utilisation of manpower in the Services, and by improving and speeding up training methods. The major part of this National Service is for training purposes. I know that in recent years there have been great improvements in training methods and the utilisation of manpower, but it is still true that the effective utilisation of manpower in the Services is much below the level which has been achieved in any other fields in which manpower is used to any great extent.
    During the war, and since, we learned to train people for complicated vocations demanding great manual skill and technical knowledge. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour knows, we taught them how to handle complicated tools and machinery. My right hon. Friend knows more than any one else here, how people were trained in a matter of weeks for jobs for which, formerly, they had to be trained for months or even years. In the Services there is ample evidence to show that training starts much more slowly and continues at a much more leisurely pace. I doubt whether there is one Member who has not had letters from constituents complaining that they are not being put to good use in the Services, and that they are wasting a great deal of time. There must be many who have had the experience that I have when I go around the country and give a lift to young Service men going to and from leave. I hear them tell one tale after another, not so much to me as to one another, of how their time is wasted and how little time is effectively used in training.
    Some time ago I received a letter from a young constituent of mine whom I happen to know, and who is one of the brightest and most intelligent young men I have come across for a long time. He went into the Royal Air Force, took a trade test and was told that he would have a year's training course as a radar wireless mechanic. Ten weeks later he
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    was still confined to camp, doing foot and rifle drill and what he calls "much polishing." In the following four months, at the end of his 10 weeks, he was given eight periods of leave amounting to 70 days. On one occasion he was home on leave for seven days when he got a telegram authorising a further seven days, which was cancelled by another telegram the following day. He went back to his unit and, four days afterwards, another telegram arrived at his home authorising a third extension of leave. About this he said:
    "On this third telegram, which arrived four days after I had gone back to duty, my family and I were completely mystified. They thought I was back at camp. I thought so, too. I was."
    When I last heard from this young man—and this is a sad commentary on training in the Services—seven of the 12 months' course which he was taking to be a radar wireless mechanic had passed and his training had not even begun; indeed, this fine piece of young manpower was being used to issue vests and knickers to W.A.A.F.S Any training manager in a factory who deployed his labour in that way would have been fired in a month. and he would have deserved it.
    The trouble is that the people who are responsible for the deployment and utilisation of manpower in the Services are never fired. If they fall down on their jobs because they have not enough labour their remedy is not to deploy their labour strength more effectively; it is to push to the head of the manpower queue and scream their heads off for more labour. The Services must now fall into line with industry, realise there is an overall manpower shortage and do what every day the Front Bench are asking industry to do—make more use of their existing manpower, introduce new methods to obtain better results per head and, in consequence, reduce the need for more men.
    We talk to engineers about motion and operation study. We talk about it in the newspapers with prettily illustrated advertisements. We go to the textile industry and say, "redeployment"—the magic word. We say, "You must redeploy your labour so that you have not got skilled men doing semi-skilled jobs and semi-skilled men doing unskilled

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    jobs." Managers of cottonmills have had to revolutionise the whole of their outlook. They have now learned that there is not a dole queue of surplus labour and that they must get more out of the labour which they have got. I see no reason why the admirals, generals and air marshals should not be compelled to revolutionise in the same way.
    The Secretary of State for War indicated in the closing passages of his speech last Wednesday—passages which I am sure were greatly appreciated by everyone—that he is applying his mind actively to this problem. The House must have been grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his frankness. He did not try to cover anything. He said that partly because there was a shortage of facilities, and doubtless partly because of other reasons, this mental revolution has not taken place and there is not first-class utilisation of manpower in the Services. I do not doubt the sincerity of his desire to tackle the problem or the energy and ability which he will bring to it. However, I want to put this point to him. We really will not get the people responsible for manpower utilisation in the Services to roll up their sleeves and tackle this job until we create the same constriction of manpower, the same shortage of manpower which in industry has compelled industrial managers to roll up their sleeves.
    I hope that no one will think that I am carrying too far this comparison between the Services and industry. Nowadays the three Services consist of a comparatively small spearhead of effective fighting troops, who are backed up by a large background of people who are not troops at all but merely workers in uniform. I do not use that description in any derogatory sense: it is an honourable term. We have doctors, nurses, wages clerks, stores clerks, storekeepers, lorry drivers and cooks and a whole host of workers in the Services whose work is exactly the same as the work of doctors, nurses, wages clerks, stores clerks, storekeepers, lorry drivers and cooks in other jobs outside the Services. It is these workers in uniform who represent the bulk of the Services manpower. I have been told, though I have not been able to check the figures, that in the R.A.F.
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    there are more cooks than there are air) crew. That may well be necessary when we have this large background of workers in uniform who are not always used to the best effect.
    I quote the case of another constituent of mine who is a sergeant in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. He served as a volunteer from 1940 to 1946, was demobilised, revolunteered at the end of 1946, and has been in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers ever since. Before his service in the Army this man had worked in an iron foundry and had reached the highest skilled level. In the Army from 1940 to 1946 he was a motor mechanic and he became a sergeant instructor. Since his re-entry at the end of 1946, in spite of repeated applications, he cannot get in any technical course. He is now being used to teach ordinary foot and rifle drill. There is one man whose effective utilisation could certainly be increased by 50 per cent., as could the utilisation of tens of thousands of others. If that were done we certainly would not need a 50 per cent. increase in the length of service.
    5.45 p.m.
    There is one other way in which it appears to me we could make a better use of Services manpower. We could do it by the rationalisation of common trades, skills and services between the three Arms. I have always thought, as have many of my hon. Friends, that that was what the Ministry of Defence was set up to do—or at least that was one reason. As far as can be seen by a layman on the outside, the Ministry of Defence instead of acting as a rationalising force between the three Arms, has merely become a superstructure on top of the three Services which adds something to the weight but does not appear to add anything to the power.
    Much could be done by inter-Service planning and rationalisation. If we nationalised transport in order to rationalise rail with road transport, why cannot we rationalise R.A.F. transport with Army transport? Why do we see so often on the roads overloaded Army lorries passing empty R.A.F. lorries and overloaded R.A.F. lorries passing empty Army lorries? Could we not save labour by having a common medical service and by having one common organisation and piece of machinery for training lorry

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    drivers, nurses or cooks? Could we not get a better use of barracks and buildings if they were controlled by a single authority? Are there not many other ways in which the work and organisation of the three Services could be reduced if the common features between them were planned in a simple way by the Ministry of Defence which was supposed to do that job?
    These are the reasons why I say that this Clause defeats the object it ostensibly sets out to achieve. If we want to achieve that object of showing a stronger front, the best way is to encourage, by creating a manpower stringency, a better use of manpower in the Services. It is laziness and unwillingness to think out problems of deployment of Service manpower which has led to the demand for this Clause, and, therefore, I shall oppose it.
    Mr. Eden: The hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo), was certainly correct when he said that this was a Clause which, so far, had been almost without friends or supporters. I do not think I can remember in my experience the first Clause of a major Government Bill being so ill-received by all those who are nominally its supporters. It may be that at some later date the Minister will find a friend on behalf of this Clause from his side of the House. I am bound to say to him and the Government that I think this position has arisen very largely through their own fault. It is not the merits of the case that have brought them into this trouble: it is their own shuffling and the order, counter-order and disorder in which they have indulged. In the process of this order, counter-order and disorder they have manufactured a whole series of pretexts for their manifold changes of policy. As the pretexts have been varied ones, confusion has merely been worse confounded.
    For instance, on Second Reading we had an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman that this return to 18 months instead of 12 was in the main caused by a deterioration in the international situation. I agree that the international situation has deteriorated, but personally I and my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee do not regard this necessity for a period of 18 months' service as being caused by that. We have always
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    thought that if we were to have a conscript Army at all, men would have to serve for about 18 months. What has happened is that the Government have been compelled to go back to the position from which they originally ran away. Their troubles are due to that. I thought that the hon. Member for Reading also had a point when he said that he was worried about the waste of manpower. I think there is a point there, because under this new scheme the Government will have a surplus in excess of what they budgeted for before. We have been given no indication as to how this 18 months' surplus is to be used, and I hope that such an indication can be given in this Debate.
    We on this side of the Committee were never convinced that 12 months would prove a workable period in order to have a National Service scheme which would assist the Minister of Defence in his task. We reluctantly supported the 12 months on the first occasion, although we made it clear, as the right hon. Gentleman will agree, that we did not think it was workable, and now we are back to the 18 months period. That is my answer to the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Levy), whose speech was perhaps the greatest curiosity of this Debate. I agree with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) that the hon. Member for Eton and Slough made an overwhelming indictment of the Government's policy and then proceeded to show how, on the basis of that indictment, he would support them. [Interruption.] Whenever I have been a supporter of a Government and did not agree with it, I usually contrived to give a silent vote.
    Mr. Gallacher: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to wastage and the waste of time in the Army, but I am quite sure he would not say that it was due to stupidity or incompetence on the part of the fellows who run the Army. He must recognise that there is an awful wastage in the Army, as was admitted by the Minister, who says that there are more men than the organisation can handle, and, recognising that, says "Shove in some more."
    Mr. Eden: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman, but I was coming to that point. One of the arguments of the hon. Member for Eton and Slough was that, by extending the period to 18 months, we

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    were giving Stalin a present in the cold war, and I know how anxious the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) would be not to do that. I was only anxious to reassure him as soon as I could that, in my judgment, we are not by this extension giving Stalin any present in the cold war, because the 12-month period was really completely useless. It is much better that men should serve for 18 months if the result of it is that their service is of more value than service of 12 months would be, because, in our judgment, that service is of no value at all. It is our view that 18 months does afford a chance of building up an Army under certain conditions, but that 12 months gives no hope at all of doing so.
    Mr. Gallacher: What about the time wasted now?
    Mr. Eden: We never got the 12 months. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it has never been brought into force. The Government first suggested, and quite rightly, a period of 18 months, it was reduced, quite wrongly, to 12 months, and has now been advanced, quite rightly, to 18 months. I am sorry that I have to explain the Government's actions to their own supporters.
    Let me repeat our position in this matter. We say that the best course the Government can pursue, in order to get that Army built up, if we are to have a National Service Army, is to have 18 months, but there are one or two points about it that I want to make. First, there was a cryptic reference to the Regular Army by the Secretary of State for War at the end of the Second Reading Debate, when he said that, if we had a large Regular Army, this extension would not be necessary, and even conscription itself might not have been necessary at all. [Interruption.] Well, this is very important, and we should like to know a little more about it.
    The right hon. Gentleman was asked by his right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) how many men did we want, and how large an Army did the right hon. Gentleman need. We should like to know that, too. Have the Government got a plan by which they say that, if the Army reaches a certain point, there will be no need to extend it, or no need for conscription at all? What is the target on which the
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    Government is working? I cannot believe that the right hon. Gentleman would make an observation like that without there being some plan behind it.
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: Would the right hon. Gentleman be so good as to say whether the Conservatives would welcome the extinction of compulsory service?
    Mr. Eden: We should like to know what the Government's policy is before we pronounce upon it. How can I pronounce upon a policy which has not yet been announced?
    Mr. Chamberlain: If certain maximum numbers were made clear, surely the right hon. Gentleman could say whether or not his party would or would not favour the abolition of conscription?
    Mr. Eden: I have not heard anybody advocate conscription for the sake of conscription. National service is necessary to create an Army to fulfil our commitments. I was dealing with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, and what I am now asking is what is the size of the Regular Army which the Government consider necessary in conjunction with National Service.Will they tell us the figure which is considered necessary——.
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Eden: No, I cannot give way. I am really going to make my own speech.
    Mr. S. Silverman: May I put this point to the right hon. Gentleman? He said that he had not heard anybody argue in favour of conscription for its own sake. Surely, that is not so. Surely, a great many people, I think on both sides of the House, though certainly more on that side than on this, have often argued that it is much better for every citizen without discrimination to do his share in national defence, instead of having what was called a recruiting master of destitution and unemployment to make the selection? Surely, the right hon. Gentleman ought to be able to say whether his party wants conscription for its own sake, or whether, on the other hand, if we could get a standing Army without conscription, he would prefer that?
    Mr. Eden: I find no difficulty about that at all. I have never said in my public life that I am in favour of conscription for its own sake, nor, so far as I know, have any of my hon. Friends. If

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    the Government can raise a national Army by other and better methods, then let them do it, by all means. What I was asking was, what is the Government's policy at the moment, and I think the hon. Gentleman will agree and perhaps may help me in that pursuit. What I want to discover is what is this new proposal indicated at the end of the speech of the Secretary of State for War, and what is the figure on which the Government would like to work in order to create such a situation that they would consider National Service to be unnecessary. I think that is a very interesting item which might usefully be explored.
    A lot has been said about the wastage of time. One of the things which makes us think that 18 months is preferable, quite apart from the military advantage—and I put this to the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, amongst others—is that the period of 18 months would make it possible for more of our young men to go abroad. I would say that those who will get the most out of their service are those who will go abroad, and all the information which I have shows that those who do their service overseas get more out of it and that many people would prefer that to staying at home.
    I think that is very important, and we have had reports on the well-being of the Army abroad which indicate that these young men have set a very high standard in the countries where they are. I was confirmed in this by reading the other day a report by the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has been with the Army of the Rhine.
    Mr. Gallacher: Scandalous.
    Mr. Eden: It is no doubt a coincidence that the two hon. Gentlemen who think it scandalous are both Members of the Communist Party.
    Mr. Piratin Mr. Piratin (Mile End) rose——
    Mr. Eden: No, I am not going to give way.
    Mr. Piratin: The right hon. Gentleman has not yet given way to me.
    Mr. Eden: I did not think it was a good plan.
    Mr. Piratin: While we know that the right hon. Gentleman has been quite reasonable, when he wants to quote, on
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    the merits of foreign service, the Archbishop's argument in favour of it, he ought to remember that the Archbishop said that the moral welfare of the troops abroad is far and above anything which exists in this country, and that that is a scandalous reflection on the state of affairs in this country, so far as the Archbishop's views are concerned.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. Eden: I am sure the hon. Gentleman is thoroughly dissatisfied with this country, but I am equally sure that the remedies he proposes are not such as would appeal to the country as a whole. I will now deal with what the Archbishop said. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman wants to hear it. He said:
    "My own feeling was that there is less likelihood of a young man going off the rails in Germany than if he were in Britain."
    That seems to be an argument for thinking that it is not a bad thing that these young men should go overseas for a while. All things are relative. I did not read it in the same way as did the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin); I did not read it as an indictment of the conditions in Britain under a Socialist administration. Perhaps I was wrong. The Archbishop went on to say:
    "Officers are handling the men with care and imagination."
    I have no doubt that is true. He said:
    "The men are getting pretty hard work to do—intelligent and interesting jobs."
    It is important, when we have these Debates, that the House should not create a bad impression of what is going on in the Army. I think that, generally speaking, everything that can be done is being done to see that the time spent by conscripts in the Forces is well spent. I come back to my original argument and say that, on the whole, I believe they get more value from their service overseas than they do if they remain at home.
    One further subject. One of my hon. Friends and one or two other hon. Members have referred to the seriousness to young men of this change of plan. I will not raise this matter now because we have something down later on the Order Paper. I will only say now that there is nothing more important than that the Government, in extending this period, should have in their minds the position of young men and the bad effect which uncertainty must have upon them.

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    The Minister of Defence made a speech the other day—I always like to read his speeches—at, I think, Weston-super-Mare. It was as near to the sea as he could get, but there was no real danger of being in a harbour; it was a nice little place by the seaside. There be gave a little advice to the British people. I am going to read it because I think, had he adopted it himself, he would not be in his present difficulty. Having said what a lot of good progressive legislation the Government had given the British people, he went on to say:
    "We believe the British people are sound at heart, and, if you trust them and give them an occasional crack of the whip, they will pay a fair dividend."
    Had the right hon. Gentleman been half as bold as that with his own party when he was originally standing out for the 18 months, he would not be in the trouble he is now. But he did not want to crack the whip then over his own party, so the period was reduced to 12 months. Others have now had to crack the whip for him, and here he is back to 18 months. The right hon. Gentleman has my deepest sympathy, but I hope, having returned to the 18 months, he will now stay the course until the Division is called.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): Let me say at once that I welcome the opportunity just given me by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) to comment upon the things which have appeared in the Press concerning the meeting to which he referred. It was held in my own native place, and I was speaking to people whom I knew very well. I think I was entitled to give some account of the great social progress which has been provided by legislation introduced by the Government which I represent. I said that, not only should you trust your people, but they should have a fair crack of the whip. The word "occasional" was never used; that was a complete misrepresentation. It is a common thing among Britishers everywhere to indicate justice and fair shares by talking about a "fair crack of the whip." I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me an opportunity to state what were the real facts on that occasion.
    I have listened very carefully to the Debate on this Clause. and I must say
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    that I have not heard anything really new concerning the case which is argued against it compared with what we heard during the Second Reading Debate. In order to reply to some of the things which have been said, I am afraid I shall have to engage in some little repetition of the arguments then put forward at the beginning of the Debate. The reason for bringing conscription into operation at all in peacetime was then stated. First of all, it was required in order to build up reserves, especially in view of the fact that there was such an enormous run-down in the Regular as well as the wartime Service personnel that we should not be able to carry out our obligations without continuing conscription.
    Regarding the reduction of the period from 18 months to 12, I have already pointed out that I warned the House on 7th May, 1947, that we could only accept the reduction if it were perfectly understood that, should the international situation deteriorate, we would have to reconsider the matter. That is the reason why we are now bringing the period back to 18 months and presenting it to the House today. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) did me the honour of saying that he had carefully listened to what I had to say during the Second Reading Debate last Wednesday. However, if he will read my speech, I do not think he will find any absence, as he suggests, of reference to the uncertain international tension, and the general deterioration in international affairs. The case on that point was most clearly put during the Second Reading Debate.
    I must remind hon. Members who speak in this way that that was also put clearly to the House by the Lord President of the Council on 14th September, when he drew attention to the deterioration in the international situation which then made it necessary for us to extend the period of service of men already in the Service, and who had not at that time been affected by the reduced period which was to operate only after 1st January, 1949. The real fact is that, in order to meet our commitments in the short-term sense for the next two, three or four years, it is essential that we should be able to make use of men called up under the National Service Act for duties not confined to this country.

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    I should have thought it was agreed by everyone that, apart from the one theatre—the B.A.O.R. in Germany—it would not be possible effectively to use National Service men unless there were a longer term of service than 12 months. I know that the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington and some of his hon. Friends feel that the case for 18 months' service is justified on other grounds than the mere fact that the men can be used for service overseas. They hold the view that 18 months is the minimum period required for training men called up under the National Service Act. So far as that is concerned, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will remember that, from time to time, a different view has been put forward from his own benches.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is my right hon. Friend saying that his case for this increase rests exclusively on the deterioration in international relationships during the past 18 months Is he saying that if international relationships were the same now as they were 18 months ago, he would not be asking for this extension?
    Mr. Alexander: It is a very important factor, and in order to meet our short-term commitments we have to take it into account. As I said on Second Reading, there are two factors which occurred after we had dealt with the Act of 1947; first, we had the special financial economies imposed upon us later in 1947, and secondly, there was the need for extending the period of service of those serving under our decision last Summer in order to meet the present situation. Those two factors combined would have so increased the run-down by 1949 and 1950, that it would have been impossible to produce a really efficient force such as we desire to produce in each of the three arms of the Service. Those are important factors, but the increasing international tension was a very powerful factor and remains so.
    My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who is not usually very complimentary to me nowadays, argued, as he always has done, as though he knew more about the way to deal with the organisation, the training and the use of land forces than those who have given a lifetime of service to it. I may, of course, not be able to
    90
    accept all the advice which from time to time one receives from the highest professional authorities in these matters, but I must say that the enormous confidence with which my hon. and learned Friend addresses the Committee on a subject of this kind seems to me a little strange in relation to the main problem which has to be faced—namely, the Army personnel and, to some extent, the R.A.F. I have had a long friendship with the hon. and learned Gentleman, and I have valued his services in the Royal Navy, but I do not think that his views can be held to apply to the general situation which I have to face in dealing with all three of the Services.
    I would say further, with regard to arguments put forward by him concerning cost—and this matter has been raised by other hon. Members on this side of the Committee—in my view, it would be quite impossible in the present economic circumstances of the country to adopt the kind of policy which they suggest, of offering bribe after bribe in order to get the forces we need. In fact, we should be helping to destroy one of our fundamental policies, which is to prevent, as far as possible, rising prices and costs of production all the way through. We should be wandering right away from the main basis upon which we should work for our economic recovery, although I should add that we have done our very best in the last few months to bring the conditions in the Services into proper relationship with costs and wages outside.
    Mr. Paget: Does my right hon. Friend really suggest that paying a proper sum for the limited number of approximately 70,000 additional troops which he requires would be anything like as expensive as the conscription proposals which he is bringing forward?
    Mr. Alexander: Yes. I do not believe that the conscription proposal would make that fundamental difference in the number of troops actually employed. We shall probably not be able to take in the full number available in any given year, and that can be arranged not by the "under counter" methods which the hon. and learned Member implied—not at all—but by straight and openly published methods—by the dropping of registration in any year in which it might require to be dropped, and by the proper use,

    91
    fully and publicly, of any special medical check which would tend to increase the efficiency of the Forces and to meet the situation. I do not think that that part of my hon. and learned Friend's speech was by any means one of the best parts of it.
    6.15 p.m.
    My hon. and learned Friend suggested, as if it meant handing out a few shillings, that we should give a special bonus of £500 to every man released from Regular service in the Army. It should be borne in mind what we had to do in order to give a very much smaller gratuity to the men who had served the country in the heat and burden of the war. True, we added to their war gratuities two months' leave with pay, but when my hon. and learned Friend suggests that on top of increased pay, we should then give a special £500 bonus, I wonder what sort of effect that would have on a situation in which we have to try, within our national economy, to get our industrialists, employers and workers into the groove in order to maintain production without unduly raising costs, and thereby maintain our export markets.
    Mr. Paget: They would enormously have preferred it to conscription. Let my right hon. Friend try it. They would much rather that people should come out of the Forces with £500 than that their own boys should be conscripted.
    Mr. Gallacher: Do not forget the housing.
    Mr. Alexander: All I need say is that from all the reports that reach me, the general body of opinion in this country is taking the view that if these things are required in the national interest, they are prepared to accept the burden. I have not found, and I do not believe the Secretary of State for War has found in his recent travels among the troops, any great resentment at having to perform their duties and doing what is required. I am also bound to say that there is no evidence that we should get so very many more recruits by giving large bribes of that character. [HON. MEMBERS: "Bribes?"] I should say that it is a bribe to add such a sum on top of the kind of pay which we are now giving the Forces. I am allowed to use the word, and I adhere to the word. If we
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    go on with that kind of inducement, it is in reality a bribe to persuade a man to leave the other job that he is doing and to join the Forces.
    I have listened to other suggestions which have been made, more particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo). We always respect what he has to say about the organisation and management of industry. As I have said before, and as was said in more detail by the Secretary of State for War last week, there is no doubt that in the past two to two and a half years there has been some misuse of the time of men in the Services; but the fact is—and I repeat what I said last week—we are often unfair to those who are in charge of the Services, the staff officers and the unit officers, when we forget the kind of conditions in which they have been handling this matter during the last two years. Whilst we are working with them to obtain every possible improvement and economy in the use of manpower, it has to be said that in the tremendous turnover of personnel which has taken place in the last two years they have had an exceedingly difficult job to do.
    The cases mentioned by my hon. Friend today were brought to my notice for the first time. Of course, in cases of that kind an hon. Member no doubt sends them to the particular Service Department for investigation. I hope that has been done in these cases. Whilst it is true that, as the Secretary of State for War has said, there is still some misuse of manpower in the Services, nevertheless there has been great progress made in other directions. If the Committee will allow me to say so, the investigations and research—very modern research—from the personnel point of view undertaken by the Royal Air Force has led to such a reduction in the man-hours now required for the servicing of the modern aeroplanes, to keep them going, that it does them great credit. I am certain it is capable of further development. These planes are being kept serviceable in the air, defeating the blockade of Berlin, and we can see how magnificently that job has been done. How can it be said, therefore, that the mechanics and the management of forces like these are inefficient? In fact, they are doing a very great job indeed.

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    The senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) asked me one or two questions as to how this would affect the particular kind of case in which he is interested, namely those who are to be sought for and selected as future officers. The Regulations under which those selections are made were actually in draft, of course upon the basis of the period of 12 months, which would have been the case under the Act of 1947, but in view of the fact that we intended to come to the House with this other proposal—for 18 months—those Regulations are now being redrafted. In the redrafting we shall take note of what the hon. Member has said to see if there is anything which can be done to meet his point of view. I do not make any promises.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Can we not at least have an assurance that the regulations shall be such that, normally, a conscript selected for training to be commissioned shall not thereby be held longer on his conscript service, even though he might possibly have to do fuller service on Reserve? Could we not have that assurance? If not, many good officers will be lost.
    Mr. Alexander: I am quite certain it would be the endeavour of the Services not to have to keep a man longer than his legal liability under the Act. On the other hand, there will be a great many young men who are going to be officers and who if they can fit it in with their other commitments, would not wish to miss a chance of getting their training as officers and giving subsequent service. We shall look at the point raised by the hon. Member when drafting the new regulations.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Does that mean there will be differentiation of treatment between one man and another?
    Mr. Alexander: Certainly not. There is no question of differentiation at all. People are dealt with on their merits and as to whether they are suitable for training as officers.
    Turning to the other question asked by the senior Burgess for Cambridge University, young men liable for whole-time service for 18 months after 1st January will be able, as at present, to apply for deferment to complete their studies before
    94
    call-up, if they so wish, and their applications will generally be granted. If they choose to do their military service first, they will be able to ask to be called up early in order to be out in time, having done the 18 months, to go to the university in the appropriate October at the beginning of the university year. I hope that has met the hon. Member's point.
    Broadly speaking, I should say I have covered most of the points until I come to the special points raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who spoke last from the Opposition benches. He said that, of course, the present position was all our own fault. I do not admit that at all. Perhaps it can be said that we were wrong in making the change in the Act of 1947. That may be said, but at the time, in relation to what was then placed before us and having regard to the fact that, as I said last week, we did have hopes that some commitments then remaining would be reduced or liquidated. I feel we had a good case. What we are determined to see is that what is now necessary to put the matter on the proper basis and to make for efficiency shall be done. Therefore, the Government say it is essential in the present circumstances that we should introduce the period of 18 months so that we can make proper use of the men.
    The right hon. Gentleman said that the Secretary of State for War seemed to have raised something new last week when he said that if we had enough people in the Regular Forces we should not need conscription. There is nothing new in that at all. We brought in conscription in peacetime for the reasons I have given earlier this evening and because, in our view, it would have been quite impossible for us to obtain the required numbers in time in face of a policy of full employment and in the absence of unemployment as a recruiting sergeant. We could not possibly have faced the situation without having conscription, but the period of conscription laid down in the 1947 Act is for the limited period of five years unless it is renewed by an affirmative Resolution of the House of Commons. I do not want to try to give a firm target figure for the Regular Forces in each of these three arms of the Services. That would not be right in the present circumstances. We must do all we possibly can to lead to an increase in the numbers in the Regular

    95
    Services and the future will depend upon the events and circumstances which will then face us.
    Mr. Byers: The right hon. Gentleman has made a very important point there. Does that mean the Government have given up the idea of having National Service in order to get Reserves rather than merely to get the numbers?
    Mr. Alexander: If the hon. Member will wait a moment or two, he will find that I am coming to that point. There are a great many people who would like to see the Regular Forces so increased in size as to obviate the necessity for National Service altogether. There are some hon. Members on the other side of the House and, apparently, some upon this side of the House, judging from part of their speeches, who would like a great increase in the Regular Forces and a kind of conscription of a much shorter period, say six months, for the purpose of maintaining a long-term reserve of people who have gone through primary training. The point is that, as we face the situation today, we have to plan both for a short-term and a long term policy. We have to keep both in mind at the present time. We must, therefore, have a longer term of conscription now in order to be able to use men overseas as required during the present state of the world. We could not achieve, by concentrating entirely upon building up Regulars, the numbers which would give us the Reserves which we are aiming at for the long-term period. In the light of all these events put before us, I submit that the Clause should receive the assent of the Committee.
    Mr. Low: In 1947 and in 1946 the right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister kept telling the House that the Government were not in favour of building up large permanent Regular Forces. Has he changed his mind about that, or not? That is the question which I put to him. He has not really answered it. He has tried to prevaricate. Will he answer it: "Yes" or "No"?
    6.30 p.m.
    Mr. Alexander: I have never tried to prevaricate. I have tried to put the position before the House as far as I know it. At the present time it is not possible to foretell what the Regular Forces will
    96
    be as the result of recruitment in the next two or three years. I am therefore not able to give the target that the right hon. Gentleman asked for just now. I do not want to be bound, in the changing circumstances that we may have to face. If the hon. Member asks me whether I am in favour of building up very large Regular Forces, the answer is that I would be in favour of building up what Regular Forces are required. No Government would wish to go further than that.
    Mr. Eden: The right hon. Gentleman becomes more and more obscure with every sentence. We really must know where we are. We were told in the 1947 Debate that long-term service would not be required and that the Government did not want a large Regular Army. I directed attention to the speech of the Secretary of State for War the other night because he said that if only we had a large Regular Army, we should not need conscription. I am asking the right hon. Gentleman not what size the Regular Army ought to be, but whether the Government's object is to get so large a Regular Army that they do not need conscription. Is that the Government's policy or is it not?
    Mr. Alexander: I am sorry if I have not been sufficiently clear. The policy of the Government in the matter has been, all the way through, subject to the short-term considerations to which I have already referred, that it was necessary to have conscription because of the inability to get the numbers of Regulars which would be required as a minimum, and in order to build up the Reserve. We are now, as the Prime Minister has had to say once or twice, having to deal with a changing situation very much as it arises. We are bound to do that. Things are changing very rapidly indeed and we have to face it, and plan accordingly the best way we can. Our view, in regard to the nature of any crisis that may break out a long period ahead—a modern war with no notice—is that we should have a number of men who had been trained and disciplined and who would be capable of being mobilised at very short notice.
    Mr. Crossman: What my right hon. Friend has been saying has been so important that one need not

    97
    apologise for prolonging the Debate. We want to vote for this Bill, but we must know what we are voting for. We did know in April when we voted for the 12 months. We thought that we knew the reasons why we were voting for it. Those reasons were put quite clearly, first by us to the Minister of Defence and then by the Minister of Defence to the House. They were, (1) the economic situation. (2) the undesirability of using conscripts for overseas service, (3) that there was a reasonable chance of reducing our commitments overseas. I remember that the right hon. Gentleman said, when I made those observations, that there was no dispute and that those were the three reasons for the reduction.
    I think we have to have 18 months now. If we did not, we simply would not have the number of men, not to fight a major war but to undertake the minimum peace-time commitments of this country. We must be told clearly and openly by the right hon. Gentleman that this is a stop-gap Measure. Hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway never take numbers seriously, but it is literally true that if the Air Force had the 100,000 men withdrawn from it who would be withdrawn next year if the 18 months were not agreed to, there would not be an Air Force at all. That I believe to be the real reason. The right hon. Gentleman has given us seven or eight reasons. For instance, right at the end, he came back to the international situation. It is grossly misleading to the Committee and the country to say that a deteriorating situation is responsible. I do not think it is deteriorating. It is just the same and it has had no effect on the position.
    I suggest that if the Malayan affair had not come up and suddenly proved that we had no forces available, no so-called deterioration would have affected us at all. It is grossly misleading to the country. I get letters from people saying: "Heavens above! Are we getting anywhere near war?" The country ought to be told that this is a technical military problem of run-down, and, I may add, the result to some extent of lack of decision. It has nothing to do with the danger of war—nothing whatever.
    Mr. S. Silverman: I do not know whether my hon. Friend was in the
    98
    House when I interrupted the Minister of Defence. I asked him whether he was telling the House that the major factor in the increase now proposed was deterioration in international relationships in the past 18 months, and the Minister answered, "Yes."
    Mr. Crossman: It is precisely because he answered "Yes" that I am on my feet. I do not believe this to be the true explanation of these proposals. I believe that the real cause for the increase is a technical cause to do with the call-up and with the run-down of demobilisation. It is scaring the people of the country to let them think that this Bill has anything to do with the international situation. My right hon. Friend says that if it were not for the international situation, we should not need all these troops. I want to know in detail which of the commitments he particularly refers to. Malaya? If there had not been Malaya, it might have been Nigeria. The Chiefs of Staff had not sufficient troops to deal with conditions in the Colonies. It happened to be Communists in Malaya, but the fact is that we have not sufficient troops to deal with a Colonial disturbance. That is a possibility for which the Chiefs of Staff have to plan, but that has nothing to do with the international situation at all.
    The real reason for the Bill has come out in speech after speech on the back benches. I know that my right hon. Friend says that we do not know anything. I have the impression, having listened objectively to the speeches, that there is some amount of understanding on some parts of the back benches if not on the Front Bench, that the fundamental thing is shortage of Regular soldiers to service our overseas commitments. We simply had not enough Regular soldiers. Is any hon. Member going to tell me—apart from the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) who seems to think it is the right principle—that it is a good thing to use conscripts for overseas service? It is very strange that the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) made a tremendous complaint about our sending semi-trained Regular men to Malaya. If they are to be used in overseas service, we are using semi-trained men.
    Earl Winterton: From this bench a year ago I asked the Government how many trained men they had to send overseas. Now the hon. Gentleman,

    99
    using exactly the same argument, tells the Committee that nobody has called attention to the matter but he.
    Mr. Crossman: I think the noble Lord must have been out of the Committee when the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington said that it was good for men to have overseas service.
    Mr. Eden: As for sending semi-trained troops to Malaya, I do not think anybody who heard my speech could have understood me as being in favour of it. I said that it was not bad for young men to be in Germany and I quoted the Archbishop's speech in support of that statement. I have never served or wished to serve, or to ask anybody to serve, semi-trained, in a situation where one has to fight.
    Mr. Crossman: The troops can serve in Germany now, under the 12-months plan. The 18-months plan is precisely to enable them to serve further overseas. Service in Germany is something that we can arrange within the 12 months. We could have done with 12 months. We need not have extended the Service to 18 months to have the men in Germany.
    Mr. Eden: I asked the hon. Gentleman to accept my statement. It is perfectly fair. He has tried to attribute words to me which I never used. I said that I would never be in favour of sending half-trained troops overseas.
    Mr. Crossman: We have to face this very unpleasant fact. The reason we are increasing the term of service now is that we have not sufficient Regular soldiers for overseas service, and we are having to make up with conscripts. I do not like that. The right hon. Gentleman does not like it, and no one likes it. We all ought to admit that. We are making do with conscripts who are semi-trained, when we should be dealing with Regular soldiers. I believe that the Committee has to face this fact, which is completely unpleasant, and one which we ought to remedy as soon as possible. The right hon. Gentleman said that he thought that we could not do any serious training without 18 months' service, but the fact is that the 18 months are not being used for training purposes. Less than six months are being used in training these conscripts to take the place of the Regular soldiers
    100
    in looking after our peace-time commitments.
    I believe that there are many hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite who will agree with me that the use of conscripts to make up the gaps in the Regular Forces for maintaining our normal peacetime commitments, is a wholly undesirable practice, and we say that the way we should try to prevent it is by having sufficient Regular soldiers. If we recognise that situation, it is no good preaching that 18 months is perfect. Eighteen months is the stop-gap which we are having to use pending the time when we have the Regular soldiers to fulfil our commitments overseas. I have heard speeches from the other side which fully agree with this point of view—that the aim and object should be, as soon as possible, to have sufficient Regular soldiers, so that we do not have to regard the conscripts as part of our effective military strength in peace time. That is an essential principle; we must not regard the conscripts as part of our effective military strength in peace time. By doing so, we sap the efficiency of the Regular Army. The Regular Army does not like having conscripts to fill the gap. It wants to feel itself large enough to do the job by itself.
    I want to hear from the Minister of Defence a clear statement that the policy of the Government is, as soon as possible, to have a sufficiently large Regular Army so that the conscripts will not be regarded as part of the effective military strength of this country in peace time. If we can hear that from the right hon. Gentleman, we should have heard the first statement by him on the principle of our peace-time Army. Our chief difficulty has been that for three years since the war, during which time we have been relying on conscription to fill the gap, we have not thought out the principle of our peace-time Army, and have wandered from stop-gap to stop-gap in the interval.
    This has put us on this side of the Committee in great embarrassment this afternoon, because there was no reason at all why the 12 months' period should not have worked, under two conditions. The first was that sufficient Regulars were recruited between April, 1947, and now. If the extra 70,000 men had been recruited, this amending Bill would not have been required. If the extra men

    101
    required for the Army and for the Air Force had been obtained, no Government would have come forward with this Bill. Why did not we have them? Because the increase in pay, essential to the scheme, was introduced last week instead of 18 months ago. The second reason is the substantial size of our commitments. We ought again to realise that these are not war commitments which we are talking about but normal peace-time commitments. Malaya is precisely the type of peacetime commitment which the Chiefs of Staff have to reckon with.
    Mr. S. Silverman: What about Germany?
    Mr. Crossman: Germany is not an extra commitment because the men over there are part of the Home Command. If anyone tells me that we have 60,000 men in Germany rather than 40,000 because the Russians are going to fight, I say that that is a very odd view of strategy. It would be madness to believe that the number of troops which we have in Germany has anything to do with the danger of war; it obviously is not.
    The first principle which we want to hear from the Minister of Defence is that we are not going to support this proposal as a permanent Measure, but that we are supporting it as a stop-gap, pending the time when we can achieve sufficient Regular Forces to cover our overseas commitments. On that point, I fully agree with hon. Members on both sides who said that the correct period of conscription is that of six months for basic training, leading into the Territorial Army
    and Civil Defence, so that we place on the professional Army as little as possible of the burden of the conscripts. The trouble that we have had is that we cannot get a clear answer from the Front Bench on this essential topic.
    Hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House are asked to vote for this without being told the reason. If we were told the reason, and if the truth came out, there would be no difficulty at all. Of course, we have to vote. If we have not sufficient Regulars, we have to use conscripts. If we knew that the right hon. Gentleman was preparing now his plans for reducing the number of con scripts used overseas and for shortening the period of service, and was planning to have a Regular, efficient professional Service, we should say to ourselves, "That is an inevitable stop-gap, and the last." This must be the last stop-gap of the basis for the first principle. It is a fact that we have to face, that the Defence Minister has to be unpopular with the Chiefs of Staff and unpopular with his colleagues because he has to take unpleasant decisions. I say frankly that in supporting the Government on this 18 months as a national necessity, I am giving no vote of confidence whatsoever in the Minister of Defence.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Whiteley)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Whiteley) rose in his place, and claimed to move," That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 209 Noes, 102.

    DivisionNo.27.]

    AYES

    [6.48p.m

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

    Brook, O. (Halifax)

    Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Allan, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Brown, George (Belper)

    Deer, G.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Brown, T. J.(Ince)

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Attewell, H. C.

    Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

    Dodds, N. N.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R

    Burke, W. A.

    Donovan, T.

    Bacon, Miss A

    Callaghan, James

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Balfour, A.

    Castle, Mrs. B A

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Barstow, P. G

    Chamberlain, R. A

    Ede, Rt Hon. J. C.

    Barton, C.

    Champion, A J.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

    Battley, J. R.

    Chater, D.

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Bechervaise, A. E

    Chetwynd, G. R

    Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

    Benson, G

    Cluse, W. S

    Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

    Berry, H.

    Cobb, F. A.

    Fairhurst, F

    Beswick, F.

    Collindridge, F

    Farthing, W. J.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Collins, V. J

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E)

    Binns, J.

    Colman, Miss G. M

    Foot, M. M.

    Blackburn, A. R.

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Gibbins, J.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Crawley, A.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Boardman, H.

    Crossman, R H S

    Glanville, J. E.(Consett)

    Bottomley, A. G.

    Daggar, G.

    Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)

    Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

    Daines, P

    Grey, C. F

    Grierson, E.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W)

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Mitchison, G. R

    Snow, J W.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

    Moody, A. S

    Solley, L. J.

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Sparks, J. A

    Gunter, R. J.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

    Steele, T.

    Hamilton, Lieut. -Col. R

    Mort, D. L

    Stewart, Michael (Futham, E.)

    Haworth, J.

    Moyle, A

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R.(Lambeth)

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

    Murray, J. D

    Stross, Dr. B.

    Herbison, Miss M

    Nayler, T. E.

    Summerskill, Dr Edith

    Hicks, G.

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Swingler, S.

    Hobson, C. R

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.(Derby)

    Symonds, A. L

    Holman, P.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Paget, R. T.

    Taylor, R. J.(Morpeth)

    Horabin, T. L.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Hoy, J.

    Palmer, A. M. F

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W)

    Parker, J.

    Thomas, I. O.(Wrekin)

    Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

    Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

    Thomas, John R (Dover)

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Pearson, A

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

    Peart, T. F

    Tolley, L.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A

    Perrins, W.

    Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

    Janner, B.

    Popplewell, E.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Jenkins, R. H.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

    Price, M. Philips

    Vernon, Maj. W. F

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Walkden, E.

    King, E. M.

    Pursey, Comdr. H

    Walker, G. H.

    Kinley, J.

    Randall, H. E.

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Kirby, B. V.

    Ranger, J.

    Weitzman, D.

    Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

    Rees-Williams, D. R.

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Leslie, J. R.

    Reeves, J.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

    Levy, B. W.

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Robens, A.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon W

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Wigg, George

    Longden, F.

    Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

    Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

    Lyne, A. W.

    Sargood, R.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    McAdam, W

    Scott-Elliott, W

    Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Segal, Dr. S.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    McKay, J. (Wallsend)

    Sharp, Granville

    Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

    Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    McLeavy, F.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Yates, V. F.

    Mallalieu, E. L.(Brigg)

    Silverman, S. S.(Nelson)

    Young, Sir R.(Newton)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Younger, Hon Kenneth

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Skeffington-Lodge, T C

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Skinnard, F. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Mellish, R. J.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Mr. Joseph Henderson and

    Middleton, Mrs. L.

    Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

    Mr. Hannan.

    NOES

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Marsden, Capt. A.

    Birch, Nigel

    Granville, E. (Eye)

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

    Gridley, Sir A.

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Bowen, R.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

    Bower, N.

    Hale, Leslie

    Morrison, Maj. J. G (Salisbury)

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

    Nicholson, G.

    Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

    Head, Brig. A. H.

    Nield, B (Chester)

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Nutting, Anthony

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hogg, Hon Q

    Odey, G. W.

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

    Hope, Lord J.

    Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

    Byers, Frank

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Carson, E.

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Pickthorn, K

    Challen, C

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon L. W

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C

    Kendall, W. D.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Langford Holt, J.

    Raikes, H. V

    Davies, Rt. Hn, Clement (Montgomery)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Renton, D.

    De la Bère, R.

    Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Digby, S. W.

    Linstead, H. N,

    Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

    Dodds-Parker, A. D

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Donner, P. W.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

    Drayson, G. B

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H

    Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Drewe, C.

    MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Savory, Prof. D. L.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Macdonald, Sir P. (I. Of Wight)

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Walter

    McFarlane, C. S

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Fletcher, W. (Bury)

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. O

    Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

    McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

    Maclean, F. H. R, (Lancaster)

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Thomas, J. P L. (Hereford)

    Gammans, L. D.

    Manningham-Buller, R. E

    Turton, R. H.

    George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Wadsworth, G.

    104

    105

    Wakefield, Sir W. W

    White, J. B. (Canterbury)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Major Conant and Colonel Wheatley.

    Ward, Hon G. R

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 30.

    DivisionNo.28.|

    AYES

    [6.57p.m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Fletcher, E. G. M.(Islington, E.)

    Marsden, Capt. A

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

    Foot, M. M.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

    Foster, J G. (Northwich)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Mitchison, G. R

    Attewell, H. C.

    Gibbins, J.

    Moody, A. S.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon, C. R.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon, H. (Lewisham, E.)

    Bacon, Miss A

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Morrison, Maj. J. G (Salisbury)

    Balfour, A.

    Grey, C. F.

    Mort, D. L

    Barstow, P. G

    Gridley, Sir A.

    Moyle, A

    Barton, C.

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Murray, J. D

    Bechervaise, A. E

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Benson, G

    Grimston, R. V.

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Berry, H.

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden

    Nicholson, G.

    Beswick, F.

    Gunter, R. J.

    Nield, B. (Chester)

    Binns, J

    Hale, Leslie

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J (Derby)

    Blackburn, A. R

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

    Nutting, Anthony

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

    Odey, G. W.

    Boardman, H,

    Haworth, J.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

    Head, Brig. A. H.

    O' Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H

    Bottomley, A. G.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

    Paget, R. T.

    Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

    Hicks, G.

    Paling, Rt. Hon Wilfred (Wentworth)

    Bower, N.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Palmer, A. M. F

    Boyd-Carpenter, J, A.

    Hogg, Hon. Q

    Parker, J.

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

    Holman, P.

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Peake, Rt. Hon O

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Pearson, A

    Brown, George (Belper)

    Hope, Lord J.

    Peart, T. F

    Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

    Horabin, T. L.

    Perrins, W.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

    Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Bullock, Capt. M.

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C)

    Pickthorn, K.

    Burke, W. A.

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Popplewell, E.

    Callaghan, James

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Carson, E.

    Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

    Price, M. Philips

    Castle, Mrs. B. A

    Janner, B.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

    Challen, C.

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Champion, A. J

    Jenkins, R. H.

    Pursey, Comdr. H

    Chater, D.

    Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

    Raikes, H. V.

    Chetwynd, G. R

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

    Randall, H. E

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kenyon, C

    Ranger, J.

    Cobb, F. A.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Rees-Williams, D. R

    Collindridge, F

    Kinley, J.

    Reeves, J.

    Collins, V. J.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E

    Langford-Holt, J

    Renton, D.

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

    Robens, A.

    Crawley, A

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C

    Leslie, J. R.

    Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Levy, B. W.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O E

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

    Daggar, G.

    Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

    Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

    Daines, P.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Savory Prof. D. L

    Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Lloyd, Seiwyn (Wirral)

    Scott-Elliott, W

    Deer, G.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Sharp, Granville

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    De la Bère, R

    Lyne, A. W

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Digby, S. W.

    McAdam, W.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L

    Donner, P. W.

    McFarlane, C. S.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Donovan, T

    McKay, J. (Wallsend)

    Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

    Drewe, C.

    Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

    Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Smith, S. H (Hull, S. W.)

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

    McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Maclean, F. H. R.(Lancaster)

    Snow, J. W.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

    McLeavy, F.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. O

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A

    MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

    Steele, T.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Lambeth)

    Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Mon. Walter

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Stross, Dr. B.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Farthing, W. J.

    Manningham-Buller, R E

    Symonds, A. L

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A.(P'dd't'n, S.)

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Ward, Hon. G. R.

    Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Weitzman, D.

    Witloughby de Eresby, Lord

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    Thomas, John R. (Dover)

    West, D.G.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Tolley, L.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    White, J B.(Canterbury)

    Turton, R. H.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Wigg, George

    Mr. Joseph Henderson and

    Wakefield, Sir W W

    Wilcock, Group-Capt C. A. B

    Mr. Hannan.

    NOES

    Battley, J. R

    Granville, E. (Eye)

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Bowen, R.

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Brown, T. J. (Ince)

    Kendall, W. D.

    Solley, L. J.

    Chamberlain, R. A

    McGhee, H. G.

    Swingler, S

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Walkden, E.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Walker, G. H

    Fairhurst, F

    Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

    Yates, V. F

    Fernyhough, E

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Gallacher, W.

    Piratin, P.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Mr. Byers and Mr. Wadsworth.

    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clauses 2 to 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    NEW CLAUSE.—(Service outside the United Kingdom.)
    A person called up for service under this Act and the principal Act shall not be sent on service outside the United Kingdom (for training or otherwise) unless, before being so sent, he shall have attained the age of twenty years and shall have completed a period of not less than twelve months' training.—[Mr. Emrys Roberts.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Emrys Roberts: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    The Committee have now decided upon military conscription for 18 months, which is a proposal we have opposed at every stage. Although we have been in a minority, I trust that this proposal which I now make will meet with the approval of all Members. It is based on the principle that, having decided to take these young men out of their civilian life for 18 months, every measure shall be taken for their protection and to safeguard their interests, especially as these people have no vote conferred upon them. The Committee cannot leave the matter solely to the Ministers, but are entitled to put into the Bill a stipulation effectively to safeguard the interests of these young men.
    The object of this Clause is to limit the extent to which National Service men
    108
    will be used as occupation troops in Germany and other occupied areas, and to prevent young men being sent on active service abroad without having received proper training. It has emerged, in the course of our discussions on this Bill, that the primary reason for the extension of military service is to send out conscripts to meet our foreign commitments because the Regular Army is insufficient. Let me state first why we think it right to impose this age limit of 20 years before young men should be sent to take their part in the occupation of Germany. As recently as last week no less eminent a person than Dr. Charles Raven, Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University and head of one of the Cambridge colleges, a man accustomed to weighing his words, said, "To send ordinary youngsters of the age of 18 years into occupied Germany is just devilry"——.
    Earl Winterton: The hon. Gentleman has, no doubt, heard the speech of my right hon. Friend, in which he quoted from a far greater authority, namely, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who completely contradicted the doctor's ridiculous, and, in my opinion, most offensive observation.
    Mr. Emrys Roberts: Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to make my speech in my own way. I propose to come to what was said by the Archbishop of Canterbury. It is true that he is higher in the ecclesiastical hierarchy, but the Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University and the head of one of the

    109
    colleges is in far closer contact with the young men who go into Germany and come from there. In any case, I should prefer, if there was a dispute or doubt on so serious a matter, to give the benefit of that doubt to the young men. I would remind the noble Lord and the Minister, that the Vice Chancellor of Cambridge University said—and he was saying this after many consultations with the college tutors on the effect on the new students of a year's conscription in Germany—that he had all the evidence he wanted of the "disastrous effect"—those were his words—of sending boys to Germany. If we have to chose between the views of two churchmen, and one of them is not merely a churchman but also, as I have said, occupies an outstanding position in the educational world, we should choose that view which avoids any danger of sending young men to Germany below the age of 20.
    We also wish to protect and safeguard these young men from being sent on active service to distant parts of the world without something approaching a proper training. Recent events have reinforced my plea that protection for them should be in the Bill, and should not rest on Ministerial assurances. There has been talk tonight of sending the Guards to Malaya. The House will recollect that on 28th October the Secretary of State for War told the House that out of 1,820 men of all ranks sent to Malaya 270 had not had six months' training on the date of embarkation; 67 had not received such training, even on the date of their arrival in Malaya, and out of the total number, 400 were National Service men. He had told the House on 23rd September that not one man was sent without at least six months' basic training.
    I am not blaming the Secretary of State. I do not think that that would be right. He was given wrong information by his advisers, although, of course, he had to take the responsibility. The real mistake was not in giving the Minister wrong information. That was a mistake, but the really serious mistake was sending these inadequately trained young men to Malaya at all. I suggest that mistakes of that character are far less likely to occur if there is provision in the Act of Parliament which says that they are not to be sent to serve overseas, unless they have completed a
    110
    certain minimum period of training. Why do we put the age at 20? Before the war, and even in the early days of the war, it was the generally accepted view that young men below the age of 20 would not be sent to France when called up under the National Service Act. For those reasons I commend this proposed new Clause to the Committee.
    7.15 p.m.
    Mr. Chamberlain: I am very glad to support this proposed new Clause. Those of us who strongly disapprove of the Bill are, nevertheless, seeking to improve its provisions in any way that may be possible, and make them less harmful. The human factor which we are now considering is one of extreme importance. For a number of hours we have been considering purely military matters—manpower and the economic situation of the country. Very little has been heard of the human side. Hon. Members in all parts of the Committee have their obligations and responsibilities in this connection. After all, we are here to speak for the fathers and mothers of these young boys in this matter.
    I and other hon. Friends had down a much more gentle and modest proposed new Clause, which was intended to make it impossible to send these young men abroad until the age of 19, except with their consent. That was a much less drastic proposal than the Clause now proposed. I entirely and absolutely agree with the sentiments and principles which have inspired the hon. Gentlemen to put down this proposed new Clause. I merely put down the gentler one because I thought it had much more chance of being accepted. I very much doubt whether the new Clause will be accepted by the Government, but I am going to ask the Government, in the event of their not being able to accept it, to give some kind of assurances on a more limited scale on the lines of the proposed new Clause which I had hoped to move.
    One of the most pernicious things about this Bill is that it enables the Service Departments to send young boys everywhere, and not only just to Germany. When we had a 12 months' limit it was not possible to send them further afield than Germany and certain other European stations. The serious and pernicious thing about the extension to 18

    111
    months is that it enables the Service Departments to send these young boys—for they are no more than young boys—to any part of the world. Indeed, the Minister of Defence and others have made it quite clear that one of the primary objects of this Bill is to enable them to send these young boys further afield, to the Near East and the Far East, if not necessarily for active service then certainly to work there and take the place of the Regular Forces there.
    I have said that we speak on behalf of the parents of this country and that these are mere boys who are being sent abroad. Many of us have boys of our own and feel very deeply about this matter. I am not one of those who would seek to underline or exaggerate the dangers and evils that may arise from sending these young boys to Germany. I think that the Archbishop of Canterbury and Dr. Raven both went to extremes and exaggerated, although I would far sooner accept the view of Dr. Raven than the view of the Archbishop of Canterbury. As the Archbishop put it, there is less likelihood of a young man going off the rails than if he were in Britain. I think that is a slight on this country and on the social system here. Apart from certain exceptional cases where it might be true, in my view it is absolute nonsense. Has the Archbishop forgotten the influence of the home over here, the influence of the friends of these young lads, and, indeed, the influence of their churches and chapels? It does not lie in the mouth of His Grace the Archbishop, who took no notice of these things, to leave them out of account altogeter.
    Is it merely with these young men, a matter of going off the rails? That is not the beginning and end of moral influences surely, when so many people, particularly ecclesiastics, are anxious to interpret moral influences in more well-known and more prominent ways—women and drink. We know there are these dangers but there are other great dangers apart from these known moral dangers, for people so young. I myself have been in Germany several times in the last year or two, and I am well aware of the depressing influence of a beaten, battered and conquered nation. I think I know by conversation with
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    these young men both in Germany and at home, that to be part of the occupation troops under those conditions has a very detrimental effect indeed on them.
    Then there is the Far East, which seems to be left out of the Archbishop's references. I know he only went to Germany. But whatever one may think about the difficulties and temptations of Germany, there are certainly real temptations of every kind in both the Near East and the Far East. These young men are very far from their homes, parents and friends, conditions are entirely artificial, and anyone who knows the Near East or Far East, as I do, knows that drink there is a terrible danger and a pernicious thing. It is asking too much—and I put this to the Minister on the Front Bench—of these young men to put them into that unnatural atmosphere. Even if they are not actually put there to fight, in other words, not sent to Malaya, nonetheless it is something for which we on these benches should take the responsibility.
    With regard to immaturity I do not think that anyone in any part of the Committee will disagree with the view that lads of 18 are immature. In case Ministers wish to brush that aside, let me call attention to the fact that last week the Minister of Defence referred to the immaturity of these boys. He was comparing the call-up of 20 years with 18 years as at present, and he said in a very guarded and moderate way:
    "There are some advantages in raising the age, as young men may be, perhaps, a little more matured when they are called up."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1948; Vol. 458; c. 2018.]
    In my opinion he under-estimated the matter but he did admit it. I have another quotation—with which I will not weary the House—from the Leader of the Opposition, who admitted that there is a big difference between a lad of 18 and one of 19. I very much hope that the Secretary of State for War will not lightly brush aside this consideration.
    I do not want to detain the Committee much longer, but I should like to add that, so far as my own view is concerned, these young people should not have to go abroad before they are 19 years of age. It would be comparatively easy for the

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    Minister of Defence to give this undertaking, because, hitherto, these youths were not called up until they were 18 years and three months, and at present they are not being called up until they are 18 years and six months. It may be that 19 years, the modest suggestion that I made, will become the rule. I ask for that, and I, personally, shall support this new Clause in the Lobby if the Secretary of State does not give us an assurance that he will go at least some way in regard to it. This is a serious home problem, and I hope my right hon. Friend will have something satisfactory to say about it.
    Mr. Swingler: I sincerely hope that the Minister will be prepared to give us some assurance about this matter, and if he will not accept the new Clause, which I rise to support, that he will make some alterations so as to include this principle. I approach this matter from a rather different angle from that expounded by my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. Chamberlain). In the first place I approach it from the point of view of principle, about which we have heard a certain amount of discussion in the Committee this afternoon. I have always approached the question of National Service from the point of view that National Service was intended to raise men for military training in defence of their country. In other words, National Service was to raise an army or provide trained reserves for the defence of these islands, and should not be a kind of stopgap or supplement to the Regular Forces.
    On that ground, I believe it is entirely wrong that a great number of the conscripts, who will be called up for military training, to form part of a trained reserve to defend the country in the event of an emergency should be used in the Armed Forces in order to bolster up colonial and imperial policies in other parts of the world. In support of that argument, I would adduce the fact that nearly all the neighbouring countries with whom, politically, we are co-operating today in Western Europe, and who have had a longer experience of conscription and compulsory service, have embodied, either in their constitutions or in their laws in respect of compulsory service, something which stops them sending conscript troops overseas.
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    It has always been part of the law of Belgium that conscript troops will not be used in Belgian territory overseas and they may not be sent to the Belgian Congo without their written consent. It has always been part of the constitution of the Netherlands that conscript troops may not be sent to the Dutch overseas territories without their consent. It is true that in 1944 that particular Article of the Dutch Constitution was laid aside by Royal Decree as a result of the war in Indonesia, but it is interesting to note that the members of the Dutch Parliament in 1946 insisted on passing a law to put that provision back into their Constitution.
    I should have preferred to see the Government accept the new Clause which I put on the Order Paper and which you, Major Milner, have not seen fit to call. But I entirely support the new Clause which has been moved by the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts) and I hope we shall have some assurance from the Secretary of State that the Government accept the principle of this Amendment that conscript troops will not be used here, there and everywhere all over the world, at any rate without their definite consent, and that they will make an alteration in the National Service Acts to that effect.
    7.30 p.m.
    Mr. Bowen: I rise to support the new Clause because I think its acceptance would do much to minimise the real evil of conscription as a whole. I regard this as an attempt to reduce the generally evil effect of conscription upon young men in this country. I base the few observations that I shall make tonight on my experience in visiting B.A.O.R. I cannot claim to have made an intensive study of conditions there, but I have visited B.A.O.R. and been in Germany, and I have lived in Service messes and in accommodation provided for troops, officers and others, for as long as a month. Moreover, I have discussed this problem with both junior and senior officers serving in Germany. It is upon my own observations, and on the comments and complaints made by these men, that I base what I am about to say.
    I have never returned from Germany in the last two or three years without a strong feeling of apprehension with regard to the fate of the young men we have

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    there, and looking at the matter from the moral aspect, I think the problem is increasing rather than diminishing. I shall tell the Committee why in a moment. I view with some serious objection this element of complacency which has grown up in connection with the problem of our young men in Germany. We have young men sent out there to Germany when they are virtually school-boys. As far as the question of age itself is concerned, much may depend on what a youth has been doing beforehand, and many a young man of 18 is mature; but, on the other hand, we have young men sent out there who only a fortnight or three weeks or a month after leaving school, have been planted in such a place as Essen, Dusseldorf, or Hamburg, and amid a community which is demoralised.
    I think the problem is tending to get worse. In the early stages of our occupation of Germany our Occupation Forces were drawn from our community as a whole. They were garrison forces, and their contacts with the Germans were limited. That situation is disappearing. I am not complaining about that, for it is a very natural development, but the change in the situation increases the temptations and emphasises the problem. In Germany today the Forces are comprised of two clearly-cut categories. We have the conscripts and we have the Regular soldiers, and they are quite apart. The Regular soldier is a man of mature age who has served in different parts of the world, a man of experience, a man on whom the temptations which lie in Germany today have little effect. On the other hand, we have the conscript. His life lies on rather different lines. The Regular soldier is usually an N.C.O., has his own mess, has his own community life. The conscript is a young man without any of this experience at all, and, apart from some organised leisure, is left entirely to his own resources.
    Two years ago, we had a more mixed military population, amongst whom were young men completing their service in the ordinary way, and the Regular soldiers of varying ages, and there was a community life so that the young man, the young conscript, out there could meet people of his own age and outlook with whom to mix. Now, however, we have these two clearly-cut categories, the Regular soldiers who have their work to
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    do and then want to spend their spare time with their fellow Regulars, and the young conscript soldiers. I feel that, rather than lessening, the dangers to the young men in Germany are tending to increase.
    I remember one occasion on which I visited a barracks part of which was devoted to the keeping of soldiers, including officers, under close arrest. I had a chat—not a formal discussion—with some 40 or 50 young men, officers and other ranks, awaiting trial on some of the most horrible offences in the criminal calendar. I came away imbued with the feeling that something ought to be done to reduce the dangers so far as our young boys are concerned.
    I think that this new Clause would go some way, not only to ease the anxieties of parents, but to see that those in charge in Germany of the military training would not have their attention diverted from that work, by having to see that these young boys live a decent life. Time and time again officers, junior and senior officers, have said to me, "Our major problem about the young boys when they first come here, for the first few months after they arrive, is to see that they keep on the straight and narrow, and that takes up so much of our energy that the time and energy we could devote to purely military training is undoubtedly reduced." The stay overseas of young boys of more mature age and greater military training would be of greater value from the military point of view itself. Something should be done to minimise the really great moral danger to our young men, particularly those in the B.A.O.R.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: I rise to support the new Clause. I think the Committee and the Minister should be extremely grateful to the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Bowen) for giving us an account of his own experience of the B.A.O.R., because that is of real value to the Committee. We have been told what the Archbishop thought he saw, and we have had that contradicted by Canon Raven. I know Canon Raven and his experience of work amongst young men, and I should be much more prone to give sympathetic adherence to what he has said. We all know, of course, that whenever anyone like His Grace with his retinue visits places like

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    that, everything is laid on for him, and nobody is going to give very much consideration to what His Grace said. Certainly the parents in this country will not have their anxiety lessened by it.
    I am very sorry that the noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winter-ton) has gone from the Chamber, because I had hoped for real support from him on this matter. I remember that once when I raised the question of our boys having been sent to Palestine, the noble Lord was very sympathetic, and said they ought not to have been sent to a country which was so full of danger as Palestine. I remember that he supported me in asking a supplementary question. It is certain from the speech made by the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) today, that he does not agree with the idea that our boys should be sent to places like Malaya.
    I want to speak on behalf of parents. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. Chamberlain) was quite right in saying that mothers are really racked with anxiety by the thought that their boys are being sent at this immature age overseas. A boy will go away from this country quite healthy, yet his mother may be met with a telegram telling her of her boy's death abroad. I shall read just a few lines from an extremely poignant letter I have received from a mother who interviewed me only a week ago. Her boy had been sent to the East. She did not even know that he was ill in hospital. I do not know how long he was in hospital. He was allowed to leave hospital, and he fell dead in the canteen. This mother writes to me in terms which show the anxiety and anger of mothers at this kind of treatment. She says:
    "If he had died in war I could have taken it on the chin; but in peace, to have our lads dragged away from us and sent to a climate to which they are not used, to die without proper care and attention is something to which no English mother ought to be asked to submit."
    That case has been sent to the Under-Secretary, and I have asked for the whole circumstances of this lad's death to be examined. His mother asked for his body to be brought home for burial. Some people may think that sentimental, but hon. Members would be shocked to
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    know the amount of money this working-class mother was asked to pay for her boy's body to be brought home to this country. That is the sort of thing about which parents are really anxious today.
    Many parents do not mind conscription. They say: "We do not mind our lads playing their part in National Service provided it is in this country; provided we know what is happening to them; provided we can go and see them if they are ill; and provided they can come home." How many times is a conscript lad serving in Malaya allowed to come home to this country on leave? Let hon. Members ask the War Office their excuse for that. For 18 months parents are to be separated from their lads who are to be sent abroad.
    Let me deal for a moment with the question of maturity. Anybody who has had anything to do with young fellows of 18 or 19 knows that they are immature, even if they have been in a workshop. Of course, they are still more immature if they have only just left school; they are only lads. Whether a boy is 18 or 20 makes an enormous difference to his maturity. At 20 young lads' minds are better furnished, their characters are more stabilised, and their physique is more developed; they are able to draw on resources which would better help them to avoid temptation. Parents could see their sons go at 20 years of age with far less anxiety than at the immature age of 17 or 18.
    All hon. Members know that I do not like this Bill at all. Indeed, originally I voted against all the Amendments because I felt that a rotten thing could not be improved by the Amendments. However, I see I have now been beaten, and that the Government are determined to have their pound of flesh from these boys. Therefore, if I, together with my hon. Friends, can do something to assist in this regard I am determined to try to put these considerations before the Minister. If my right hon. Friend cannot accept this new Clause, I hope he will accept other Amendments which, while not going quite so far, at least do something to prevent our lads being sent overseas at this early age.
    Mr. Walker: I have held very decided views on the whole question of National Service and the conscripting of our young men: but I recognise, as

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    does my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning), that the views I have held have been out-voted in this Committee, and that today we are pledged by the Government to the form of military service we know as conscription. I do not like to think that under this conscription law our young men will be sent on military service to all parts of the world. In the first place, I am not at all satisfied that a young man of 18 or 19 has the physical power of endurance to go abroad to undertake service of this description in the name of his country.
    I have examined this new Clause. I may be dense, but I cannot see how it is possible under the conscription law for any of our Services to send one of these young conscripts to perform service in foreign parts. Ever since this subject was introduced I have taken it for granted that these young men would be conscripted into military service at, or within three months or so of, the age of 18. I have heard it said that their service may be deferred until 19, and in some cases 20, years of age. At first they were to be called up for 12 months' conscripted service. It is now to be 18 months. For the life of me, I can see no value in calling up a young man for 18 months' conscript service and sending him to some foreign country to serve in the military forces; much of the time and money spent on training him would be largely wasted, because no sooner would he reach the foreign station than he would have to return under his terms of service.
    7.45 p.m.
    The more I look at this, the more I am amazed that a Government such as the present one should allow this kind of service in our Armed Forces. A young chap of 18 or 19 is just at the time of life when he ought to be actively training for his career. If these young men are taken into the Forces and sent abroad, then instead of their service being 18 months it will be very much longer; and the longer that service the more deleterious it will be to their future careers. After all is said and done, whilst we do not want our young men to be unmindful of the service they can render their country, both now and in a future emergency, we must recognise that in these years of their lives, they are
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    preparing for their careers in order to fulfil all the obligations and duties of their future manhood.
    I distinctly remember that on reaching the age of 18 I had great ambitions and aspirations. I am happy to say that I had already developed a belief in Christianity, and I was going about preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. I was a young local preacher; I had enthusiasm, and a burning zeal to win people to a better and nobler life. At that time I thought it would not be very long before this world would reach the time when war would be no more. I do not forget that during the 1914–18 war tens of thousands of our young men were called to the Forces on the distinct understanding that they were fighting a war to end war. Today, we are again discussing conscripting our young men.
    I regret the necessity for such a Clause as this being put before the Committee. Although I approve of its objects, I cannot help feeling it is a practical impossibility. I should like the Minister, in reply, to tell me precisely how a young conscript of 18 or 19 can be sent abroad and still fulfil the kind of service envisaged in the course of 18 months.
    Mr. Edgar Granville: Hon. Members on these benches regard this Clause as very important and we hope that the Secretary of State will tell us that he is in a position to accept it. Its principle is extremely important. It is one thing for a young man to go abroad to seek ambition, a career and adventure. It is another thing altogether for the Government to conscript him to serve abroad when he has not even the vote to express his own democratic view about it.
    My hon. Friends the Members for Merioneth (Mr. Emrys Roberts) and Cardigan (Mr. Bowen) have dealt with the moral aspect, and have been supported by hon. Members opposite. We hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Clause but that, if he is unable to accept it on technical grounds, hon. Members opposite will come with us into the Division Lobby. We have heard some resounding and critical speeches from the benches opposite, and the Government have been rescued again by the Opposition. It certainly was not rescued by the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman). We hope, therefore,

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    that hon. Gentlemen opposite will pluck up courage, on this Clause at least, to vote with us if the Government cannot accept it.
    I base my opposition to sending these young men abroad not only on the reasons given by my hon. Friends but also on grounds of economy and defence. That is important. I think it is generally accepted by the Government that even by sending abroad young men who are conscripted for 18 months, we cannot police the world. Neither, by such a policy, can we maintain our industrial output and carry on our export trade. Any attempt to follow a bilateral defence policy on such a basis would be disastrous for this country in its present position. Our commitments abroad, whether in Malaya or elsewhere, must be a Commonwealth Defence responsibility. Whether, under the Bill, we send our young men abroad to Malaya, or, as the hon. Member for East Coventry said, to other parts where difficulties may occur, this is a matter which the Minister of Defence should discuss with his colleagues from overseas and ask them to accept their responsibilities for these commitments abroad.
    Most of the speeches of today to which I have listened have laid emphasis against the calling up of young men, getting them into training and into khaki and sending them abroad. I believe, however, that industrial war potential is the main defence of this country in its present world position. We cannot compete with the manpower situation and pay our way. If there is one lesson that this country, our Chiefs of Staff and the right hon. Gentleman's military advisors must have learnt from the 1914 and 1939 wars, it is that men were not our main deficiency. During the critical periods our lack was of equipment and munitions. In other words, our critical need was for industry and production. That is why I adduce the argument that it is an obsolete and antiquated defence policy to try——
    The Chairman: The simple question here is whether youths of under 20 should or should not be sent abroad.
    Mr. Granville: With great respect, Major Milner, that is exactly the argument I am trying to develop. If, with our present manpower commitments in
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    this country, there is need to conscript, it is a far more intelligent policy to train these young men in industrial war potential in industry and to give them a trade than to put them in khaki and send them abroad to Malaya or to other parts. The Secretary of State for War must know that, if, tomorrow, this country found itself in a difficult position internationally, we would of course not be short of men. We have, as I have said, never been short of men in a war crisis. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) has said this over and over again. It is in industry and munitions of war that we have fallen short. I helped to raise a battery——
    The Chairman: The hon. Member seems to be devoting his speech to the question of manpower generally. This is a question of youths under 20, and it is to that matter that the hon. Gentleman should address his remarks.
    Mr. Granville: With very great respect, Major Milner, as I see this Bill, its purpose is to conscript and send young men to serve overseas. The argument I am trying to make is that after they have been conscripted—with which the Clause is concerned—instead of being sent overseas, they should be retained in this country until they reach the age of 20 and taught a trade.
    The Chairman: The hon. Member refers to the Bill from time to time, but we are not discussing the Bill. We are discussing a specific point about sending youths abroad and I must ask him to keep to that point.
    Mr. Granville: I will endeavour to keep within the terms of your Ruling, Major Milner. The new Clause we are proposing states that no young man shall be sent abroad until he has reached the age of 20 years. We need to have an imaginative policy from the right hon. Gentleman which will enable these young men to go into constructive industry. We are short of apprentices because of the dilution of labour during the war. We are short also of craftsmanship, and if we continue to follow a policy of the kind proposed we shall be shorter still. Instead of sending these young men abroad, instead of such an obsolete and antiquated policy we should keep them here after they have been conscripted on

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    special training in industry as apprentices and craftsmen for a certain period.
    Mr. Walker: Even within the Army?
    Mr. Granville: Even within the Army or other forces. If we have a corps d'elite in our Regular Army, with specialists in our Territorial force—yes we should have something like a Territorial specialised technologist Army—our young men could be given courses on the things which the right hon. Gentleman knows are important today in terms of modern warfare. Aircraft, radar and technical developments are of course the necessities in a modern war potential. That is the kind of training which these young men should have in special types of industry after being called up, rather than being put into khaki and sent abroad as a police force to Malaya and other parts.
    I believe that if the Secretary of State for War had been on this side of the Committee and our present defence policy had been pursued, if such a Clause as that before us had been brought forward, he would have torn the policy he is now defending to pieces. He would support and plead for an imaginative and progressive policy of the kind we are advocating as suitable to this country today. I am amazed to find all that the right hon. Gentleman can do is to go to the pigeon holes of the War Office and produce the old, dusty papers of 1935 to 1939 and repeat the process.
    Mr. Attewell: The hon. Member supported that.
    Mr. Granville: I opposed it. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider the Clause and the importance of the training which could be given to these youngsters here in this country. Such a course would be far better for the country, for the men themselves, and from the view of industry, civil and war potential, defence and the War Office must know this. For those reasons, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us a bold, imaginative and modern policy which will implement the Clause we are proposing.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mrs. Nichol: There have been eloquent speeches in support
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    of this new Clause. I have my name down to another proposed new Clause to provide that the age should be 19. I hope that even if the Minister cannot go all the way to meet the terms of this new Clause, he will compromise by at least conceding the extra 12 months.
    It is a matter of great grief to me—and grief is not an over-statement—that the Government found it necessary to introduce a Conscription Bill in peacetime at all. As they found it necessary to do so, I feel that the least they can do is to mitigate the worst evils of that Measure by a provision of this sort. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) said that she spoke for the parents, and she spoke very eloquently for the parents. I am a parent. My boy served in the last war but, mercifully, he did not have to go abroad at the young age of 18. It was bad enough to have him training at 20 and when he finally went abroad, the anxiety for me was, as for every parent in this country, almost unbearable. It is true that parents are racked with anxiety now at the thought that their young sons might have to go abroad at 18.
    There is all the difference in the world—and no one knows it more than the Minister—between 18 and 19. It is only 12 short months, but in those 12 months a boy grows up in an amazing way. Only parents can see the great development which takes place between 18 and 19 and still more between 19 and 20. That year would make all the difference in mollifying parents to some extent. I realise that I am not using arguments about economics, or industry, but am making a simple human appeal to the Minister to keep our young men here at the age of 18 and not send them abroad when they are too young to be exposed to the dangers which we know exist abroad. If they can be kept under their parents' eyes for that extra year, it would go a long way to help.
    Whether the Archbishop of Canterbury is right, or whether Canon Raven is right, is not the point. The very fact that Canon Raven can find something wrong should make this Committee sit up and take notice. I beg my right hon. Friend to go as far as he can in meeting us on this proposed new Clause.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell): We have some way to go before we complete the proceedings on this Bill. We also have the Report stage and the Third Reading to dispose of. If I intervene at this stage, it is not that I wish to be discourteous to my hon. Friends, but because this new Clause cannot be regarded as a major amendment, although it has important aspects. Therefore, we might dispose of it more speedily than hon. Members had thought. I understand that the principal reason behind this new Clause is the apprehension hon. Members feel about the moral welfare of our young men sent overseas. I can say at once that every Member of the Government is as anxious to safeguard the interests of these boys as are other hon. Members. Some considerable time ago, probably six or eight months ago, I received several deputations from church organisations, from a representative women's organisation, and other voluntary bodies, on the subject of the moral welfare of the troops, particularly in Germany. Without them knowing all the facts, I gave them an assurance that these matters would be carefully investigated. I paid a personal visit to Germany and made careful inquiries and, although no doubt there are occasions when Ministers
    are——
    Mr. Cove: Shepherded.
    Mr. Shinwell: —I use the language of my hon. Friend—are shepherded in undertaking these inspections, I suspect myself of sufficient shrewdness to detect anything in the nature of deception.
    Mr. Cove: We all think that.
    Mr. Shinwell: My hon. Friend says, "We all think that." My opinion is as good as his and the opinion of the Archbishop of Canterbury is just as good as that of Dr. Raven. We have to consider first, the actual facts about the situation in Germany. I readily admit that on inquiry and investigation both here and in Germany, we were apprehensive, but we did the right thing in the circumstances and sought every possible means of improving the position. And the position has in fact substantially improved.
    In saying this I do not rely on the opinion of the Archbishop alone, but, in pursuance of a promise I made to the
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    Free Church Federal Council deputation which came to me many months ago, their representatives have paid a visit to Germany and I will quote from the report they issued. If some hon. Members are not prepared to accept the opinion of the Archbishop, they might, for various reasons, be prepared to accept the opinion of the Free Church Federal Council. It would be useful to put extracts from their report on record because what I am seeking to do is not so much to mollify hon. Members who in principle are opposed to conscription and dislike this Bill most intensely—although I recognise I must meet their arguments in so far as they possess any validity—but what I am concerned about is removing the apprehensions, the anxieties, the fears of parents and relatives of boys, and that is very necessary. It is all very well for my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) to quote a particular instance, but
    "One swallow does not make a summer."
    Indeed, several swallows would not constitute a summer. Of course there are cases where boys are badly handled. There are cases where boys, whether in Germany or elsewhere, will mishandle themselves. It has nothing to do with conscription. It has nothing to do with being in the Army, the Royal Air Force or the Royal Navy. There are boys in industry who treat themselves badly—morally, physically and otherwise and everyone of us recognises that.
    Mr. Granville: In this country, when at home.
    Mr. Shinwell: Indeed, when boys are at home there is no guarantee that they will not misconduct themselves. A great deal is being said at present about parental responsibility in these days and its relation of juvenile delinquency. I will not enter into that controversy, but I will remind hon. Members that it must not be assumed that whenever boys leave these shores, they suddenly develop a double dose of original sin. It simply is not true. Now I will quote from the report of the Free Church Federal Council. This is quite a recent report, and I hope hon. Members will bear with me while I read it:
    "The provision of all kinds of amenities and facilities for the physical, mental and spiritual wellbeing of these young men is so well conceived and lavish as to command our highest praise."
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I have that report, too.
    Mr. Shinwell: Of course, there is nothing the hon. Member does not possess except a little patience and restraint. I will continue to quote:
    "Indeed, for many of these young conscripts, whose circumstances in civil life are not too favourable, we are convinced that life in the B.A.O.R. is probably an advantage. For here, they are brought into touch with influences for good which might never reach them at home. The B.A.O.R. is clearly out to make not only good soldiers, but also good citizens; and in this aim it is spendidly aided by the C.V.W.W."—
    which is one of the most important of the voluntary organisations operating in Germany—
    "As we have every reason to believe that this enlightened policy is meeting with a large measure of success and will be continued, we have therefore come to the unanimous conclusion, concerning the main issue before us, that the situation obtaining in the British Zone of Germany today, while still not wholly satisfactory, is not so serious as to call for a withdrawal of these National Servicemen, but rather for a steady and progressive continuance of the present policy. We are further convinced that parents, whose sons are drafted into B.A.O.R., need have no undue anxiety as to the results that will ensue."
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: Do you think that will remove their apprehensions?
    Mr. Shinwell: The report continues:
    "Their boys are not just being thrown willy-nilly into a kind of modern Babylon; they are brought into a community wherein every care is taken of them by a great number of good, able, and experienced men and women. In this community, we are persuaded their sons will find every inducement to go straight, and every discouragement to do wrong, and they will be given every opportunity to develop their potentialities of body, mind and spirit in the confident hope that they may return later to civil life, better men."
    The remarkable feature about this report is that when a deputation came to me from this organisation, I had the greatest difficulty in convincing them that we were making every effort to safeguard the interests of the boys. They were very sceptical and, indeed, brutally frank, but they had been in Germany, they had carte blanche to investigate.
    Mr. Emrys Roberts: For how long?
    Mr. Shinwell: They could go where they cared. No inhibitions were placed upon their movements, none whatever. Nor have I placed any on Members of
    128
    Parliament. They are at liberty to go. Indeed, I have encouraged them to go, and I have made it quite clear to our authorities in B.A.O.R. that they should afford them every possible facility for conversing with both officers and men and, in particular, of ascertaining whether the welfare arrangements which exist are satisfactory. I am ready to admit at once, as the Free Church Federal Council have stated, that the position is not wholly satisfactory, but it is improving, and it is substantially improving. If hon. Members want an assurance——
    Mr. Gallacher: They do not say it is satisfactory.
    Mr. Shinwell: if hon. Members want an assurance, I give them this guarantee, that we shall use every endeavour, in cooperation with the authorities on the spot and with the voluntary organisations, to safeguard the moral well-being of our boys.
    Mr. Granville: May I ask one question in order to complete the picture of the responsibility of the Secretary of State? Will he tell us why it was found necessary that this deputation should visit Germany, and why it was necessary that the Archbishop of Canterbury and other dignitaries should make statements?
    Mr. Shinwell: It was largely the result of newspaper reports which contained startling allegations about the condition of our troops in Germany. As a result of those reports, many hon. Members approached me and my Service colleagues and demanded that inquiry should be made. And they were quite entitled to do so. If I were a parent or a relative of one of the boys I should have been equally sorry and concerned at the allegations which appeared in the newspapers.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: May I ask a question?
    Mr. Shinwell: But there were also allegations about the incidence of venereal disease and the most astonishing allegations were made in that connection. I was able to show subsequently, after making careful inquiry, that the incidence of disease was much higher among the Regular soldiers who had reached maturity, than among the boys who are regarded as immature.
    Mr. Hughes: May I ask a question?
    Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Member is asking too many questions?
    Mr. Hughes: I have not had one answer.
    Mr. Shinwell: It would not make any difference because there is no answer anyone could give the hon. Member which would satisfy him——
    Mr. Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman does not know the question.
    Mr. Shinwell: —that is why I say it is no use asking it. I am dealing with a serious matter. I repeat that I am anxious to remove the apprehensions of parents and other relatives. I say that in the matter of this insidious disease, which was one of the causes of many of the allegations, we were able to demonstrate that the boot was on the other leg, and when I met the deputation from the women's organisations they were astonished at the statistics we were able to submit to them.
    Mr. Hughes Mr. Hughes rose——
    Mr. Shinwell: What does the hon. Member want now?
    Mr. Hughes: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point of venereal disease, may I ask, without wishing to over paint the picture, is not this contained in the report of the Free Church Federal Council which he is quoting:
    "Prophylactics are available to all, and it is estimated that 80 per cent of the B.A.F.O. apply and are supplied with them"?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am not aware of that being in the report, but at any rate it is quite irrelevant. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is quite irrelevant, for this reason: It is well known that in any army the incidence of this disease is higher than it is among the civilian population. I am trying to convey to hon. Members that the position is rapidly improving at least in Germany.
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Shinwell: May I be allowed to make my speech? I intend to make it in any event, in spite of these unseemly interruptions. We are trying to improve the position, and a substantial improvement has been effected.
    130
    One of the things which we found it necessary to undertake was the continued use of the women's organisations. The Women's Voluntary Service, for example, was not being used to the extent that was desired. Since we have availed ourselves of an extended use of such organisations there has been a marked improvement in the position. I wish to pay my tribute to these organisations for their endeavours.
    I turn to the question of sending troops overseas. It seems to be assumed that we only contemplate sending conscripts abroad when the present Bill comes into operation. That is quite fallacious. In fact there have been conscripts abroad since the end of the war, for long periods of service, and they have been sent further a field than B.A.O.R.
    Mr. Granville: Why police the world?
    Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) raises quite a different issue. He asks "Why do we have to police the world?" This is not a foreign policy Debate. I understand that there is to be one this week, and I advise him to ask that question when that Debate takes place, although I, too, would be very glad to meet him on that basis.
    Conscription is in operation, and the principle has been applied of sending these young men abroad at what is called an immature age—at the age of 18 years 3 months. I wish to make it quite clear what is and has been the position of the Government on this matter. We dislike sending abroad boys of this age.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Why send them?
    Mr. Shinwell: If we could avoid it we would certainly do so. At the same time. provided that proper care is taken of the boys in respect of welfare, and in particular if they are engaged arduously in military training, they are all right. I have seen some of the boys in Germany on more than one occasion. I have been immensely impressed by their bearing, their physical appearance, their mental alertness. They are a fine lot of chaps, if I may use a military expression.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: So are the miners.
    Mr. Shinwell: No one knows that better than I do. If I may say so, with

    131
    due modesty—and I hope that this will not be regarded in any way as egotism—I wish to do as much for the soldiers, officers and men, as I tried to do, very modestly, for the miners. If it comes to a discussion of what has been done for the miners, I will put my record against that of any man in this country. Along with my Service colleagues and with every hon. Member on both sides of the House, I want—we want—to do our best for the fellows in the Services, and why should we not, more particularly when we impose compulsion? At the same time, we must not disregard the fact that many Regulars join the Army either in a spirit of patriotism or because they feel that they want to embark on a military career, and we must render them at least all the assistance which we feel we must render to the National Service man.
    A question has been put to me about the position of other countries. It is said that Continental countries do not send their conscripts overseas. In the case of France, France with Algeria is regarded as a metropolitan area, so that argument would not apply. Holland relies mainly on Colonial troops, so that there is no need for her to send large numbers of conscripts overseas. The same applies to Belgium in relation to her territories in Africa, so that there is no analogy in that.
    Now I wish to put very briefly what I regard as the principal reason for sending the boys abroad. I have already said that we would prefer not to do it, but we must, and I will tell the Committee why. It does not seem to be recognised in certain quarters—I am making no complaint about it; there is a good deal of misunderstanding about the position, and I only discovered it for myself some time after I arrived at the War Office—what were the results of the very speedy demobilisation and the turnover of men, of the many commitments we have overseas, and last but not least, of the fact that having once accepted the principle of National Service, we have to find ways and means of training the National Service men. All these factors, in the absence of a Regular Force big enough to meet all demands, mean that National Service men must be sent overseas to meet some of our needs.
    132
    8.30 p.m.
    As I told the House in the Second Reading Debate, the Army has 170,000 men overseas, and a large number of them are conscripts. These boys are coming and going all the time. When they come back to this country, or before they do so, we have to replace them by sending other men out. This constant movement creates a condition of in stability and unbalance. If we are to meet our commitments—I am not entering now into a controversy about our commitments and the reasons for them—we have to be realistic. We have to face the fact that those commitments are there, and clearly we must be in a position to have men whom we can send overseas to meet our commitments from time to time.
    Mr. Granville: What about the Dominions?
    Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Member asks me what about the Dominions? They are not affected by this Conscription Bill. As regards Malaya, we have undertaken the task of policing that area in the hope that we shall shortly be able to remove the principal difficulties and that the men can safely return.
    Mr. Granville: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, before this decision was made, Australia and New Zealand were consulted on the Commonwealth scheme of defence and whether they were prepared to take part in the defence of Malaya?
    Mr. Shinwell: All that I am prepared to say is that on all occasions the Commonwealth countries are fully consulted.
    I do not propose to say any more beyond this. I should be obliged to hon. Members if they would approach me at any time—and I think I can say the same for my Service colleagues—and make suggestions as to how the moral condition of troops overseas should be safeguarded. We have libraries and recreation schemes, and there are a variety of other means which we employ. But if hon. Members, particularly hon. Members with military experience, have any further suggestions to make we shall be pleased to consider them.
    Our primary concern is to look after the boys while they are away. The

    133
    officers are enjoined most strictly to function in that direction. I do not complain of what hon. Members have had to say. I understand that many dislike the principle of conscription and do not like the Bill at all. But I will give them this assurance, if it is any consolation to them, that if this proposed new Clause were carried, our National Service scheme would be of no value at all. I hope it will not be carried. In effect it is a wrecking proposal, and therefore, with the best will in the world, I cannot accept it and must ask hon. Members to reject it. I
    repeat once more, on behalf of the Government, that we shall use every possible means of improving the moral condition of our men overseas.
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Whiteley Mr. Whiteley rose in his place, and claimed to move. "That the Question he now put."
    Question put. "That the Question be now put."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 190: Noes, 82.

    DivisionNo.29.]

    AYES

    [8.32p.m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Freeman, J (Watford)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

    Gibbins, J

    Parker, J

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Paton, Mrs. F (Rushcliffe)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Grey, C. F.

    Pearson, A

    Attewell, H. C

    Grierson, E

    Peart, T. F

    Awbery, S. S.

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Perrins, W.

    Bacon, Miss A

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J (Llanelly)

    Popplewell, E.

    Balfour, A

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

    Hale, Leslie

    Price, M Philips

    Barstow, P. G

    Hamilton, Lieut-Col. R.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Barton, C

    Hannan W (Maryhill)

    Pursey, Comdr. H

    Battley, J. R

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

    Randall, H. E

    Bechervaise, A.E.E.

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Ranger, J.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Hewitson, Capt. M

    Reeves, J.

    Benson, G.

    Hicks, G

    Reid, T (Swindon)

    Berry, H.

    Hobson, C. R

    Robens, A.

    Binns, J

    Holman, P

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Blackburn, A. R

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Horabin, T. L.

    Royle, C.

    Blyton, W. R

    Hoy, J.

    Scott-Elliott, W

    Boardman, H.

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Segal, Dr. S.

    Bowden, Flg. Offr. H W

    Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

    Sharp, Granville

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Shawcross, C, N. (Widnes)

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Brown, T.J. (Ince)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon G. A

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Bruce, Maj. D. W T

    Janner, B.

    Silverman, S. S (Nelson)

    Burke, W. A.

    Jay, D. P. T.

    Simmons, C. J

    Callaghan, James

    Jenkins, R. H.

    Skeffington-Lodge, T C n-Lodge, T C

    Castle, Mrs. B. A

    Jones, P Asterley (Hitchin)

    Skinnard, F W

    Champion, A. J.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Chetwynd, G. R

    King, E. M.

    Smith, S. H (Mull. S W.)

    Cobb, F. A.

    Kinley, J.

    Solley, L. J

    Cocks, F. S

    Kirby, B. V.

    Sparks, J. A

    Coldrick, W.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Sttele, T.

    Collick, P.

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Swingler, S

    Collindridge, F.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Sylvester, G. O

    Colman, Miss G. M

    Longden, F

    Symonds, A. L

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Lyne, A. W.

    Taylor, H B. (Mansfield)

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    McAdam, W

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Crawley, A.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    McKay, J (Wallsend)

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Daggar, G.

    Mackay, R. W G. (Hall, N. W.)

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Daines, P.

    McLeavy, F

    Thomas, John R. (Dover)

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Tolley, L.

    Deer, G

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Marquand, H. A

    Turner-Samuels, M

    Diamond, J.

    Middleton, Mrs. L.

    Ungoed-Thomas, L

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Mitchison, G. R

    Walker, G. H

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Moody, A S.

    Warbey, W N

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B

    Weitzman, D.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

    Mort, D. L.

    Wells, W T (Walsall)

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Moyle, A

    West, D. G.

    Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

    Murray, J. D

    Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.).

    Fairhurst, F

    Neal, H (Claycross)

    While, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Farthing, W. J.

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E (Bradford, N.)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon W.

    Fernyhough, E

    Oliver, G. H.

    Wigg, George

    Fletcher, E. G M. (Islington. E.)

    Paget, R. T

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Foot. M M

    Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

    Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES

    Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

    Yates, V. F.

    Mr. Snow and

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Mr. George Wallace

    Wills, Mrs. E. A.

    NOES

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

    Granville, E. (Eye)

    Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

    Bennett, Sir P.

    Gridley, Sir A.

    Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

    Birch, Nigel

    Grimston, R V.

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S (Cirencester)

    Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

    Head, Brig. A. H.

    Nicholson, G.

    Bowen, R.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Nield B. (Chester)

    Bower, N.

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Odey, G. W.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Pickthorn, K

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

    Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Carson, E.

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

    Challen, C.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Channon, H.

    Kendall, W. D.

    Sanderson, Sir F

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Lancaster, Col. C. G

    Savory, Prof. D. L.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Langford-Holt, J.

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Digby, S. W.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Lindsay, M. (Solihuff)

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S)

    Donner, P. W.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

    Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Turton, R. H.

    Drayson, G. B.

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon, M. S

    Wakefield, Sir W. W.

    Drewe, C.

    McFarlane, C. S.

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J (Dorset, E.)

    Eccles, D. M.

    Maclean, F. H. R (Lancaster)

    White, Sir D. (Fareham)

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    White, J. B. (Canterbury)

    Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

    Manningham-Butler, R. E

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Gates, Maj. E. E

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES

    Mr. Byers and Mr. Wadsworth

    Question put accordingly, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 25; Noes, 224.

    Division No.30.]

    AYES

    [8.41p.m.

    Battley, J. R.

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Bowen, R.

    Granville, E. (Eye)

    Piratin, P.

    Brown, T. J. (Ince)

    Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Davies S. O. (Merthyr)

    Kendall, W. D.

    Walker, G. H

    Fairhurst, F

    McGhee, H. G.

    Yates, V. F

    Fernyhough, E

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Gallacher, W.

    Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES

    Mr. Byers and Mr. Wadsworth

    NOES

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Brook, D (Halifax)

    Donner, P. W

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Donovan, T.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

    Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

    Dower, E. L G. (Caithness)

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

    Drewe, C.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Burke, W. A.

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Attewell, H. C

    Callaghan, James

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A

    Dumpleton, C. W

    Bacon, Miss A

    Champion, A. J.

    Eccles, D. M.

    Balfour, A

    Channon, H.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

    Chetwynd, G. R

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Barstow, P. G.

    Cobb, F. A

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

    Barton, C.

    Coldrick, W.

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

    Collindridge, F.

    Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

    Bechervaise, A. E.

    Colman, Miss G. M.

    Farthing, W. J.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Bennett, Sir P.

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Foot, M. M.

    Benson, G.

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Berry, H

    Crawley, A.

    Freeman, J. (Watford)

    Binns, J

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O E

    Gates, Maj. E. E.

    Blackburn, A. R.

    Daggar, G.

    Gibbins, J.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Daines, P.

    Glanville, J E. (Consett)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Grey, C. F.

    Boardman, H.

    Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W)

    Gridley, Sir A

    Beles, Lt.-Col. D. C.(Welts)

    Deer, G.

    Grierson, E.

    Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Bower, N.

    Diamond, J.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Digby, S. W.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden

    Hale, Leslie

    MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

    Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Head, Brig. A. H.

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

    Manningham-Buller, R. E.

    Skeffington-Lodge, T C

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Marquand, H. A.

    Skinnard, F.W.

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

    Hicks, G.

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Smithers, Sir W

    Hobson, C. R.

    Mitchison, G. R

    Sparks, J. A

    Hogg, Hon Q

    Moody, A. S.

    Steele, T

    Holman, P

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Sutcliffe, H

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Mort, D. L.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm, E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Horabin, T. L.

    Moyle, A.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Hoy, J.

    Murray, J. D.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Hutchison, Col. J. R.(Glasgow, C.)

    Nicholson, G.

    Thomas, John R. (Dover)

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Nield, B. (Chester)

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C N.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Paget, R. T.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Janner, B.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

    Tolley, L.

    Jay, D. P. T.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Parker, J.

    Turner-Samuels, M

    Jenkins, R. H.

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Turton, R. H.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Pearson, A.

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

    Peart, T. F

    Wakefield, Sir W. W

    Key, Rt. Hon. C W.

    Perrins, W.

    Walker-Smith, D.

    King, E. M.

    Pickthorn, K.

    Warbey, W. N

    Kinley, J.

    Popplewell, E.

    Weitzman, D.

    Kirby, B. V

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Wells, W T. (Walsall)

    Lancaster, Col. C. G

    Price, M. Philips

    West, D. G.

    Langford-Holt, J.

    Price White, Lt-Col. D

    Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

    Lennox-Boyd, A T

    Proctor W. T.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

    Leslie, J R

    Pursey, Comdr H

    White, Sir D. (Fareham)

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Ranger J.

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    While, J. B. (Canterbury)

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Robens, A.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Lucas-Tooth Sir H

    Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

    Wigg, George

    Lyne, A. W.

    Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    McAdam, W.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Sanderson, Sir F

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    McFarlane, C. S.

    Scott-Elliott, W

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    McKay, J. (Wallsend)

    Segal, Dr. S.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

    Sharp, Granville

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Mr. Snow and

    McLeavy, F

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Mr. George Wallace.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Interval between notice of call-up and registration for service.)
    In subsection (1) of section seven of the principal Act the words "provided that a period of six months elapses between the date of public notice and the date of registration "shall be inserted.—[Mr. Swingler.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Swingler: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    I am in some difficulty in moving this Clause because it relates to the age of call-up which is going to be discussed a little later under another new Clause—[Limit on liability to be called up].
    The purpose of this new Clause is to provide that the Minister of Labour must give a period of six months' notice between the date of calling for the registration of a certain age group and the time when the registration actually takes place. Section 6 of the principal Act provides:
    "The Minister may from time to time by public notice require male persons who have
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    attained such age as may be specified in the notice."
    to be registered for military service under this part of the Act. Section 7 of the principal Act lays down the kind of regulations which the Minister may make for those persons who become subject to registration.
    The point of this new Clause arises from the uncertainty regarding registration, which itself is the result of the expedients to which the Minister of Defence has resorted for carrying into effect the call-up under the 1947 Act. We first of all had notice of this in the Defence White Paper for 1948 when it became clear that the Government were not going to carry out the call-up on the lines that I think had been suggested during the discussions on the 1947 Act, namely, calling up all the young men at the age of 18, but by the postponement of registrations they were going to raise the age of call-up without actually amending the Act. By the omission of one registration in

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    each year, the call-up age year by year under the Act was, in fact, going to be raised. In the words of the Defence White Paper, 1948, which referred to this postponement of registrations because the Forces were unable to take in the whole number of men called up if they were called up at the age of 18, these words appear:
    "This will be effected by the omission of one registration in each year, which will result in the age of call-up in 1950 being raised to 18 years and nine months."
    That has been further qualified by the statement of the Minister of Defence during the Second Reading of this Bill when he said:
    "It is necessary in the present circumstances not to take in, in a particular year, the whole net number available for call-up. That has to be adjusted from year to year according to the needs of the situation. It may depend to some extent upon any changing international circumstances and upon the growth of the Regular Forces and the ability to train a given number."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 1st December, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 2019.]
    I suggest that this puts us in a state of complete uncertainty regarding the age of call-up and the future registration of young men. We have previously gone by what was in the Defence White Paper, that there was to be a progressive raising of the age of call-up from 18, which was embodied in the 1947 Act, to 18 years nine months in 1950. Now we are informed that under this Bill the numbers called up will be uncertain, and the Forces are not going to take in the whole net number available for call-up at a particular time. Actually the age of call-up is now going to depend upon a whole lot of circumstances which have been outlined here by the Minister of Defence, which means that all young men who have not done compulsory military service between the ages of 18 and 26, as laid down in the principal Act, are in a state of uncertainty because of this constant change in the plans of the Defence Forces as to what the age of call-up is going to be at any particular time.
    We do not know that at any time a Defence Service may decide that they do not want a registration on the date when it is due, and they may decide to postpone two registrations a year instead of one, and raise the age of call-up again. There is no guarantee in the Act that the young men who are going to be
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    affected by this progressive raising of the call-up age will in fact get any longer period of notice about it at all.
    I regard this situation as extremely unsatisfactory because, as I propose to point out a little later—not in the discussion on this new Clause—assurances were given when the Act of 1947 was passed that the age of call-up would be 18 years and that it was the intention to stick as near to that age as possible. It was regarded as the most desirable age. All the arguments for that are very obvious. In the first place, it enables the individuals concerned to make some plans. If they are to be called up at 18, or are not to be called up until 18½ or 19, they can, to some extent, plan their careers accordingly. It enables parents to make some plans about careers and education so long as they know quite definitely when the young men are likely to be called up.
    The same things apply to industry. It applies to employers in industry generally. If the age of call-up over a period of time is definitely known, and the number of registrations likely to take place in any one period of years is known, some plans can be made. I think it is only fair, therefore, that the powers of the Minister of Labour under the principal Act should be qualified and that there should be some guarantee that he will have to give to the young men concerned, to their parents and to industry a period of notice before he carries a registration into effect.
    If there are to be these continual changes in the number of registrations and in the age of call-up, there should be a period of time given. The Minister of Labour should say that six months ahead, at a certain period of time, he intends to call for the registration of men who were born in such and such a month. He will have to issue a public notice that a registration has been decided upon, then the registration will take place and later the young men will be called up for service.
    I do not think it is asking too much to suggest that the Services should plan six months ahead what the age of call-up is to be, in the period of years which are affected by this Bill, so that they are able to give six months' notification that a registration will take place. I sincerely hope, therefore, that the Minister of

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    Labour will see his way to accept this new Clause so that every man who is affected by this Bill shall know at least six months ahead or rather more than six months ahead, when he is likely to have to register.
    Mr. Chetwynd: I am pleased to support the new Clause moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Swingler). I do so because in my view it is a constructive Clause which is designed to lessen the harsh effects of the call-up on the young people of the nation.
    When this new Act comes into force the young men will not know whether they will be called up from the age of 18 years three months, or from the age of 19 years. In my submission that is not making either for an efficient Army or for the best will on the part of the people who are to join it. All people who are liable to call-up at the age of 18 are informed in this way. First of all these is a public notice which specifies all those people between certain ages who are liable for registration on a given date. Then there is the actual registration, followed by the medical examination—it may be a month or two months afterwards—followed by the actual enlistment, which, in most cases, is over five weeks, and in some cases as much as three months, after the registration.
    9.0 p.m.
    All that means that it may be a very long time while the boy is awaiting the call-up. He makes his arrangements on the understanding that the call-up will be at the age of 18, but in actual fact he may be 19 years of age, or even over 19 years of age, when he is called up. That means he is marking time for a considerable period. 'That has a very bad effect on him, on his family, on his employer, and, ultimately, upon the Armed Forces. The Minister of Defence said on Second Reading:
    "It is proposed that, if it is found to be necessary, we should continue the practice of deferring one normal quarterly registration in each of the years 1949, 1950 and 1951."
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) asked him how men will know when they are to be called up, and my right hon. Friend's answer was:
    "There will be an early announcement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 2018.]
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    That, in my view, is totally unsatisfactory, and needs to be clarified tonight before we can really expect these young people to know where they stand.
    Later in the Debate on Second Reading the Minister of Defence argued that it was not possible to fix a fixed age all the way through, and he said we must have a certain amount of flexibility to meet changing circumstances as they arose. I do not dispute that for a moment, but I do not think that asking the Minister of Labour to give six months' notice affects that flexibility. We do not, as has been suggested, say that we ought to call up a man at 18 and six months or not at all, but we say that if it is not necessary for him to be called up until he is 19 it is reasonable to expect the Minister to give him six months' notice. My hon. Friend pointed out the fairness of this to the man, his family and his employer. It is also fair to the Armed Forces, who ought to be enabled to plan more comprehensively than they have been able to do in the past. I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to give some encouraging news when he makes his reply.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I appreciate the purpose of this new Clause and also the spirit in which it has been proposed. However, I shall ask my hon. Friends to withdraw it, although I shall give them several assurances first. I share completely, without any reservation, the claim that young people and their parents should have definite notice, and as long notice as possible, as to when the young people are likely to be called up. We are moving to that end.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) referred to a statement made by the Minister of Defence in answer to the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden)—a statement by my right hon. Friend that there would be an early announcement. The early announcement to which he referred did not mean an early announcement each time there is to be a call-up but an early announcement to be made by us shortly, setting out if we can—and I think we can—for quite a year ahead when the young fellows will be called up for service. It is true that at the present moment the numbers are uncertain. I personally am rather glad they are uncertain, because I want to see them kept

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    as low as possible so that we shall not take more than really necessary and so shall not interfere with industry too much. I shall very shortly be able to look ahead for at least a year, and I am planning to give as long notice as possible to everybody who may be required.
    We do not want this to be tied down rigidly to six months. There are all sorts of circumstances and factors which may emerge that will prevent us from sticking to that arrangement. There must be flexibility. Let me give a rough timetable of how the thing works at the moment. First, there has to be public notice of registration. That is usually a notice three weeks before the registration date. I think it should be longer. We shall plan to make it longer. However, that is how it works now. After the registration the first to be called up for medical examination come in two weeks. They come afterwards, too, because we cannot call every person up for medical examination at once or we should swamp the doctors. We could not tackle them all, and there would not be enough flexibility in taking them into the Services. Nobody is called at present for medical examination until two weeks after registration. After the examination, notice of enrolment is sent out after five weeks' time, and the date of enrolment in another two weeks, and so normally the period is about three months between announcement of a registration and the earliest call up.
    There ought to be a longer period than three weeks between the announcement and the registration. However, that is not what my hon. Friends want. What my hon. Friends want to know is the date on which a man is to come up for registration and to know it three months beforehand, so that he may expect in three months' time to be called up after notice of registration. At the present time, they have three months as the minimum after the public notice has appeared. I would ask hon. Members not to tie us down too tightly. I give the assurance that we will give as much advance notice as possible——
    Mr. Swingler: Does the right hon. Gentleman really mean that these registrations are planned less than six months' ahead? Is the situation such that he literally does not know, over and above
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    the period of six months, when a particular age group is to be called up, and that it would be impossible to give another three months' notice?
    Mr. Isaacs: No, I do not say that. The point has been confused because hon. Members referred to the fact that there may be the dropping of a registration. We may drop from four registrations to three. We do not know what are the circumstances. We may even find it necessary to drop from three to two, or to come up from three to four. I am not saying that we shall do that, but I am giving an undertaking quite definitely that this matter is under consideration. I hope possibly by early in January to be able to make a full announcement, and, if the Committee would prefer it, we could arrange for Question and answer immediately the House resumes, and put before the House the kind of plan that we have in mind and indicate how far we are looking ahead. It is because we do not want to be tied rigidly to six months, and I do not want to give a pledge to make it six months, that I assure the House that we shall make it as long as we can beyond the minimum of three months, and give as long a notice as possible beyond the notice of registration.
    Brigadier Head: Does the right hon. Gentleman say that the Government do not now know what the Services' demands are for the future, may be for two, three or four years? Does that mean that when the decision to increase the period of National Service was taken, they were not able to indicate what numbers they would want for the future?
    Mr. Isaacs: That is not quite the point. Supposing we should find that the changes of pay and condition of services brought forward a great number of volunteers, we might not want to take in all that number of men at a particular moment. The needs of the Services are known and the number of men they would require, but if we can get a sufficient number of volunteers enrolling in the Services, we may find it necessary to slow down the call-up. On the other hand, unforeseen circumstances may arise which may make it necessary to call up the four groups. I repeat, both as a Minister and as an individual, that I am entirely in line with the request that the fullest possible notice must be given, and we shall give the utmost notice that we can.
    Mr. Swingler: I appreciate the Minister's assurances, and I am aware of all the uncertain factors which he has dealt with. I must say, however, that I think that it is a highly unsatisfactory and deplorable situation if less than six months notice is given before the period of registration. Having said that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Clause.
    Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
    NEW CLAUSE.—(A ppointment of Director-General of National Service.)
    A Director-General of National Service shall be appointed to regulate the flow of conscripts into the three services and back again into civilian life and with responsibility for their welfare whilst in uniform.—[Mrs. Manning.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mrs. Manning: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    I have felt, both during the Second Reading and the Committee stage of this Bill, that we have been regarding these young men as if they really were soldiers. They are nothing of the sort. They are civilians in uniform. I think that it is most important in connection with this Clause that we should remember that these young men are civilians in uniform, and that they should be looked after just as they would be if they were at home and not in the Army. I, as the Committee know, do not favour the Bill at all. What I am doing tonight is to try to mitigate what I regard as some of the worst features of the Bill, when these boys, who should be following their civil vocations, are actually in uniform, and some of them abroad.
    The proposed new Clause just withdrawn by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Swingler) shows clearly the reasons why a Director-General of National Service should be appointed for the first consideration set out in my proposed new Clause. The flow of young men into the conscript Forces should be regulated by somebody other than the Minister of Defence, somebody attached to the Department of the Minister of Labour, but with responsibility for no other tasks whatever. From the Government replies and many of the speeches made from both sides of the Committee, it is obvious that the whole question of the flow into the conscript Army is very confused, and that at the moment nobody
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    knows exactly when they will be called up.
    During the Debate it has been said that there will be a great many "under the counter" dealings; that there will be deferments for men in certain categories; and that there will be others in a favoured position, whose service will be deferred so that they may go up to the university and so on. This will inevitably create a feeling of inequality among the population generally. All those factors need careful consideration, and I think that they are best considered by a Director-General of National Service whose sole job this would be.
    Nothing has been said tonight to lead me to believe that the welfare of the young men of this civilian army in uniform is looked after as well as it should be. We have had read to us selected parts of a whitewashing report by a Committee sent to B.A.O.R., which has reported the way in which the welfare of these young men is considered. But it is not only in B.A.O.R. where the welfare of these young men is, in my view, not sufficiently considered. I should like to read to the Committee a letter I received today. I know that the Government Front Bench do not like us reading individual letters; they say that one swallow does not make a summer, or as I prefer to put it one robin does not make a winter. But it is the letters we receive from our constituents which make these boys come alive to us, which make them something different from what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) called them this afternoon—" bodies to be drawn from a reservoir."
    We think of these boys, not as bodies to be drawn from a reservoir, but as young men who today, because of the action of this Government and because of its foreign policy, are now to become conscript soldiers. They are young civilians who are taken from their proper avocations and turned into soldiers for a period of years. They are not young men who are to fight in a war they understand, but young civilians of a certain age group, turned into soldiers for the time being. I want to feel that they are used and understood as such, so I make no apology for reading this letter, which shows that the welfare of these young men at present in

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    our conscript Army is not being properly cared for. This young lad writes:
    "Dear Mum and Dad,"—
    they write like that, because they are just boys—
    "I arrived safe at this God-forsaken hole called R.A.F. Pershore."
    I am glad to see the Minister responsible here.
    "I arrived at four o'clock and I didn't get anything to eat until a quarter to eight."
    Well, that is not the way to treat a young man of that age.
    "They haven't got any plates in the cookhouse so we were given bowls, and if we lose those bowls or break them, then God help us, because we don't get anything in their place."
    He goes on to say that there are no baths in the camp; that the camp is closed once a month so that the men can go home to get a bath. They have not even a proper wash place; they have a few taps over a piece of concrete, and they get hot water twice a week. Can any mother be content to know that that is the way the Services treat a boy, brought up in a decent home? We are not talking about "dead-end kids." From the reply given by the Minister of War this afternoon one would imagine that we were talking about "dead-end kids"; that they would all be criminals; that they were not boys from homes like our own, or boys of people we know in our constituencies who live in little villages and always bring up their children decently. If I continued to read this letter the Committee would realise what the difficulties of these young soldiers are. Certainly if they are not verminous—[AnHON. MEMBER: "Tories."]—I hand it to them, because it means they are taking great care of themselves.
    9.15 p.m.
    Earl Winterton: The hon. Lady is making a serious charge. I think that charge should be publicly stated. She is asserting that at a well-known R.A.F. Station, Pershore, the condition is such that the men are verminous. Is she prepared to make that statement seriously?
    Mrs. Manning: That is not what I said. The noble Lord knows I did not say that, and I will not allow him to twist my words, although he often tries
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    to twist the words of hon. Members on this side. What I said was that if these men are not verminous, then I take off my hat to them because they must take great care of themselves. I have sent this letter to the Minister responsible and I hope he will look into it. If it is found that the young man is exaggerating, then I hope he will say so, because that is the only thing which will reassure parents who get letters of this kind.
    So I say it is necessary that somebody other than Army people should care about the welfare of these boys. Over and over again during these Debates we have had declarations from the Front Bench that there is much waste of time in the Army. These young men who are wasting their time are in the prime of their youth and ought to be doing a really good job of work, not picking caterpillars off the cabbages in the colonel's garden. There are much more important things in life for these young men to do. Is that another allegation to which the noble Lord objects? I dare say everybody who has been in the Army knows something about that kind of thing.
    Much as I dislike this Bill, I only want to feel that if these young men are to be detained in uniform for a period of 18 months, at least we will do something to make that time really worth while. This is an age group for whom we have a great responsibility and to whom we owe great obligations. These are the young men, now grown to the end of their adolescence, who at eight years of age—and those will be called up at the end of the period, at three years of age—were evacuated from their homes. They lost in those early years the influence of their home life; often they were brought back before the bombing was over, and so they were subjected to the effects of air raids. They lost a good deal of their education. Many of them lost the chance of a scholarship at the age of 11 which would have taken them through their secondary school to the university. So we really owe the boys of this age group more than we owe almost any other age group.
    It is up to the Ministers to see whether they cannot put some responsible person in charge of the whole thing. A real Director of National Service would look after their education, their religion, their

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    physical welfare, and their friendships. During the war there was not much time for Army education and it has been much neglected since the end of the war. Whilst they are in the Army I would like to see these young men have a real chance of the best kind of education that can be given to them. They often get very anxious about their relatives. There should be someone to keep their contacts so that the boys know things are all right at home. Very often Members get letters from boys asking us to go and see their mothers and fathers because they have not had letters recently or because they think that their letters have been lost. We want someone who will be in touch with their relatives in order to assure them that the boys are being well looked after.
    It is also very important that there should be some regulation of the way in which they go back to civil life. Unless we can have some assurance from the Minister that a director will be appointed who will have the real care of these boys during the 18 months they are in the Army, I do not feel there will be a smooth articulation between leaving the Army and returning to civil life. Many will have gone straight from school intending to go on to the university, but 18 months in the Army will have changed their minds about that. It frequently happens that in such a period one loses the flavour of study. We want them to go on with the career on which they started, unless they find something which interests them much more.
    Neither is there any guarantee about employment for more than about three months, but we want them to have a chance of permanent employment and to go back to a job that suits them and not to be square pegs in round holes Before they go into the Army no one wants to employ them because they are soon to be called up and, unless something is done, when they come out of the Army they will not be able to settle down into civil life. We want someone interested in this great new national task and this alone; someone who does not also have the job of getting European workers to go into the textile industry, the anxiety of strikes and many other things with which the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are burdened.
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    This is a job for one man; to see that the flow is properly regulated to the Army and that there is no "under the counter" work such as was suggested this afternoon; one man to he responsible for their welfare, their education, their religion and that their friends are properly looked after and the same man to see that when they come out of the Army they settle back into civil life. I hope my right hon. Friend will give sympathetic consideration to this suggestion and offer to those of us who are interested in the matter some hope that some steps will be taken in the direction set out in the proposed new Clause.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: The hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) referred to baths in Pershore. As the Under-Secretary for Air did not intervene, may I remind him that during the war baths were available in Pershore and, unless the Minister for Fuel and Power has had them removed, they are still there.
    Earl Winterton: I am sure we all sympathise with the object the hon. Lady has in view, but I do not think discussion of the proposed new Clause should end without someone on this side supporting the Government's view that it was grossly unfair to accuse anyone in authority in the three Services, of not looking after these men. I could not listen to the attack she has made without replying to it. I do not know about Pershore, but I thought that was greatly exaggerated. I believe she amended the statement and said that it was only due to the cleverness of these men that they were not verminous but I do not think there was a word of accuracy in that statement and it is not calculated to make her very popular with the young men in the Services. Perhaps she does not mind that.
    Mrs. Manning: It certainly does not worry me.
    Earl Winterton: I do not think it is a statement which should be made and I do not think anything should be said which would cause young men going into the Services to think they will have to put up with those conditions.
    Mrs. Manning: If the conditions are as reported in my statement, conveyed to me by a constituent in whom I have every faith and who sent it as the statement of his son, it is quite right that I

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    should see that these matters are looked into and the welfare of the young men at this camp considered. I should not be doing my duty as a representative of that father in this House if I did not bring his letter to the notice of the Committee.
    Earl Winterton: I am not objecting to the hon. Lady quoting the views of this young man. What I was refuting and what, as an ex-Service man, I shall refute as long as I sit in this House, was an attack which was unfair, upon the arrangements for the welfare of these young men generally. I am aware that the hon. Lady is perfectly sincere in putting this matter forward but I do not attach the slightest importance to what was said by this homesick young man on his first arrival at a camp.
    I wish to put on record, and I am glad to see present an hon. Gentleman who made some critical observations about the treatment of the B.A.O.R. in Germany, that we have read today, in addition to what the Archbishop said last week, of a report by a most influential committee composed of members of the Free Churches—the Rev. S. W. Hughes, President elect of the Baptist Union, the Rev. Maurice Watts, Chairman of the Congregational Union, the Rev. W. Noble, former President of the Methodist Church, and the Rev. Henry Wigley, General Secretary of the Free Church Council. The report calls attention to the immense improvements which have been made by the military authorities—and this is to the credit of the Secretary of State—in respect of the B.A.O.R., and shows that there should be no moral danger to young men going into it. They used the phrase—it is not my phrase but that of representative members of the Free Churches—that life in the B.A.O.R. was probably an advantage for some young men.
    I think that is the reply to the sort of charge which the hon. Lady has made. Every one is in sympathy with her point of view that everything should be done for these young men, but it would be wrong for it to go out from this Committee tonight that things were as bad as the hon. Lady's speech would lead people to believe.
    Mrs. Nichol: I wish to support the new Clause which my hon. Friend so ably
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    moved. This is a very simple Clause, as simple as it appears on the Order Paper. It places the responsibility for all war welfare on to a special department. I am quite prepared to admit that a great deal has been done. I know that the Secretary of State for War has paid special attention and has shown great concern for the welfare of the men in the Army, and that he has gone to great lengths to institute and make a good many improvements. At the same time some of us feel concerned that there are many cases where conditions are not all that may be desired. Even if all were well, it is most desirable that it should be some one's special responsibility, and should not be diffused among a great many well meaning and creditable organisations.
    Among the many fine things which this Government have done, one of the finest has been their special concern for the young people of this country. We have recently passed the Children Act, which has given practical expression to that concern, in that it takes special care of a certain section of young people. The after-care of these young people goes on up to the age of 18 and can even be continued to the age of 21. If that is necessary for one section of our young people it is very necessary that this care should be exercised in the case of these young conscripts who go into the Forces. They are a very special problem. They are jerked into military life before they have any proper roots and are sent back again to civilian life, having had their values changed and in many cases distorted.
    I should like to feel that the Minister will give some special consideration to this Clause which we propose. It is, after all, a simple Clause asking for someone to be appointed whose special responsibility and special concern shall be the care of all these young men who are going into the Army. Earlier this evening the Secretary of State for War said, "Our primary concern is to look after our boys whilst they are away." That is all right. But we want it to be a special concern whether they are away abroad or are at home. The fact is that they are having this special military training, and will be going back again to civilian life. I maintain that it would be an excellent thing if a special Department could be set up with some trained person to look at all the factors regarding the care which is

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    necessary for these young men who are conscripts and who will be going back again to civilian life.
    9.30 p.m.
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. Isaacs: I have listened to what the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) has said, and to the letter which she has read. I cannot help feeling that it would have been much nicer if she had sent that letter to the Department and had awaited their observations on it before she made the contents public. If what is in the letter is correct, it may disclose some bad physical conditions, but I do not think that it discloses any fault in welfare as we look upon the word in connection with these matters.
    This proposed new Clause is quite unnecessary in both its phases. It asks that there should be appointed a director-general of National Service. Well, we have one. That is me. I nearly said, "I am the bloke," but I would not go quite so far as that. I have to carry out this duty through a Department of the Ministry of Labour which we call the Military Recruiting and Demobilisation Department. It is the job of the Minister of Labour, acting under the authority of the House through its Acts, to regulate the flow of conscripts into the three Services and back again into civilian life. That is what we have been doing all the time.
    The second half of the proposed new Clause is unnecessary and unwise. It is the proper responsibility of the commanding officer of a unit to look after the welfare of his men. It is a responsibility which I believe is thoroughly accepted and carried out. Quite properly. he delegates that duty to the sub-commanders. We have already heard in other speeches that a good subaltern will make a good unit. It is their job to look after the welfare of their people, and they are doing it. We do not want to intervene. For the Ministry of Labour to appoint some civilian to step in and tell the commanding officer what to do, when to do it and how to do it, would not be welcomed by the commanding officer, and I do not know that the civilian employers would be very happy about it. And what a job for one man! I know that the Minister of Labour has a lot of peculiar sorts of jobs——
    Mrs. Manning: The right hon. Gentleman has said that he is the director, and doing the job in addition to a lot of
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    other jobs. Now he says. "What a job for one man!"
    Mr. Isaacs: If I may for one moment assume that I am a sort of super-man, I would say that I do not want another job on top of all the others. But the fact is that it would not be possible to have somebody in a Department outside the Services telling the Services how they should conduct their welfare work, and so on. These are comprehensive arrangements. It is not a question merely of seeing that hot water is laid on, or that the canteens are properly run, or that there is proper sleeping accommodation and the sanitary conditions are as they ought to be. There are also chaplains in the Forces who have to look after the moral and spiritual welfare of the men. These chaplains must act in conjunction with their own commanding officers and with the welfare officers of their unit. It would be quite impossible for another Ministry, or another Department outside the Services, to step in. We should have to find out whether the chaplains were preaching the proper sermons or whether they were giving out the proper hymns. One never knows where one is likely to arrive if we did that sort of thing.
    I do not say this facetiously, but when we come to consider this suggestion we cannot take it very seriously. In addition to the officers, welfare officers and the chaplins, there are these energetic and earnest welfare organisations working in these fields. It would be difficult to suggest that anybody outside should step in and try to interfere. I think that this new Clause is unnecessary. All that it asks for is being done already except that we have not got an individual called the Director-General of National Service. During the war we had a Director-General of Manpower. He was a highly-placed civil servant who did a splendid job for the country in that capacity. We have no longer got an officer of that name, but the Department is still functioning and the work goes on.
    The hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) also said that there were no. jobs for the boys when they came out of the Forces. If they want jobs when they come out of the Services, these boys can come to the Ministry and every assistance will be given to them. It is said that some lose their taste for universities while in the Forces. Judging by the great

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    number who, properly, ask for facilities to continue their studies and also for opportunities to leave the Services a little while before their full time is up, it seems to me they are not losing that desire at all. We cannot accept the new Clause because it would cause too much interference with the duties laid upon officers, which they are carrying out honestly and conscientiously, and it would ask us to do something which is unnecessary.
    Mrs. Manning: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that after the war, there was appointed a Director-General of Army Education who was one of the most devoted servants of education this country has ever known, and can the right hon. Gentleman say why he left his job?
    Mr. Isaacs: I understand those officials are still there.
    Mrs. Manning: Mr. Morris is not.
    Mr. Isaacs: That is no reason why—whether or not they are there—another Minister should be appointed.
    Mr. Gallacher: I wish to support this new Clause. It is good that the hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) has raised this matter. I ask the Minister to give the suggestion more consideration. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) was very indignant about what was said by the hon. Lady. He took it that it was a criticism of those in charge of the Services. Maybe it was; maybe it was not. He referred to the statement made by the Free Churches. That statement says that the situation is not wholly satisfactory but that there has been an immense improvement. What sort of conditions existed before the immense improvement, and why was there such an improvement? It was because hon. Members like the hon. Lady and others were continuously drawing the attention of the Minister to the letters they were receiving. All kinds of efforts were directed towards getting something done for the lads overseas. That is why it is possible to represent an immense improvement.
    When the right hon. Gentleman uses the statement of the Free Churches and presents us with what is claimed to be an immense improvement, he is criticising those who were in charge before that improvement took place. Is that right?
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    Of course, it is right. So what we have against the Archbishop of Canterbury is cant from Canterbury. It is nonsense for him to suggest for a moment that these boys are better off, from the moral point of view, outside this country than they are in their own country and in the shelter of their own homes, and, if any Communist had made a gross and absurd statement of that kind, we should never have heard the end of it. The best place for a lad is in the care of his own home, his own parents and his own teachers.
    What has been reported by the Free Church Council, that the situation is not wholly satisfactory, is a very serious qualification. I ask him to give more consideration to the statements made by the hon. Lady, and, even if he does not feel that it is desirable to appoint a Director-General, in the sense in which the hon. Lady suggested it, to take every conceivable step to see that everything that can be done will be done to remove any doubt about the situation not being wholly satisfactory, so that we can get, at the earliest moment, a statement that the situation is satisfactory, so that nobody need have any fears about these lads over there.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I wish the Minister had given a little more serious consideration to this new Clause. The right hon. Gentleman rather put up his hands in despair and bewilderment, and said that he has too many jobs already and that this is piling one more on the others. I am sure that many hon. Members will have a certain amount of sympathy with him.
    The new Clause proposes that the duties of the proposed Director-General of National Service should also include directing people in the Forces back into civilian life again. That is a point in which I think those who are concerned about the future economic welfare of the country are greatly interested. I am always pressing the various Service Ministers, though not with a very satisfactory response, about the number of building workers in the Army. If there were such a Director-General, it would be his job to go over the heads of particular Service Departments to find out if there were people in the different Services who could be better employed on the home front. So far as housing is concerned, I want to stress the fact that we are facing a very serious problem on the

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    home front, because we need a Director General of this kind to direct building workers back into the building industry, because they are so badly needed in Scotland. I pass from that point, Mr. Bowles, because you are evidently under the impression that I am going to discuss the housing question.
    I am concerned with the moral welfare of these people, and I want to take up the point discussed by the noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winter-ton). I listened with incredulity to the Secretary of State for War quoting a report from the Free Church Council. I have heard of the devil quoting Scripture for his own purpose, but the Minister of War quoting the Free Church Council is absolutely the limit. I challenged the right hon. Gentleman, when he had the report in his hands, to read some of the really relevant parts. I would draw the attention of the noble Lord to the fact that a statement is made in the Free Church Council report, dealing with conditions in the Army on the Continent, that prophylactics were available to all, and also stating that it was estimated that 80 per cent. of the B.E.F. were supplied with them. That is a very sad commentary on welfare work in the Army, though I believe that the welfare officers are doing their job.
    Earl Winterton: As the hon. Gentleman has referred to me, is he suggesting that prophylactics are not supplied to the inhabitants of this country?
    9.45 p.m.
    Mr. Hughes: Perhaps they are supplied to the Forces in this country, but I do not know that the percentage is the same. I suggest that the conditions to which the Free Church Council calls attention are beyond the ability of the welfare officers to cure. The fault lies in the system and the military organisation imposed under this Act.
    I would also draw the noble Lord's attention to the fact that, in this same report, it is stated that one doctor gave it as his opinion, after careful investigation, that promiscuous intercourse was indulged in by anything from 50 to 82 per cent. of the Forces. In spite of that, the Secretary of State for War comes along and selects quotations from this document in order to try to give the assurance that everything is all right so
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    far as the moral welfare of the soldier is concerned. I have heard the brass hats criticised in this House, but there is something that is even worse—brass hats talking through brass necks. We have had too much of that today.
    I do not suppose that the Archbishop went the right way about finding out the real facts in Germany. Had he gone disguised as a private soldier, he would have found out the truth. If things are so good in Germany, and if the moral welfare of the troops is so high there, how is it that the Archbishop does not advocate conscription for the gentlemen of his own holy order? Why does he not say that they should go into the Army?
    I am disturbed at the way that the Secretary of State for War dismissed this matter. Had he carefully read the figures for venereal disease in the various theatres of war that were given by the Minister of Defence in a Parliamentary reply, he would not be quite so self-satisfied about it. The figures show that, as far as the United Kingdom was concerned, the percentage in 1946 was 7.7 per thousand of the strength. In B.A.O.R. the percentage jumped to 30.4. There is a great deal of difference between 7.7 and 30.4 for the first quarter of 1946. We then find that for the second quarter, the percentage was 41.8 per thousand, for the third quarter 44.6 per thousand, and for the fourth quarter 41.8 per thousand. We are all very pleased to know that the figures are going down, but the statistics show that the more soldiers who go to garrisons overseas, the more their moral welfare is likely to be affected.
    I suggest that if we want to take the guidance of any religious leaders in the country who have studied the conditions in Germany, we should go to the people who really know most—the ambulance section of the Society of Friends. In the current number of "The Friend" can be found a point of view of a really religious organisation which does not hesitate to go into the danger areas with the soldiers, and to do its share in ambulance work. This religious organisation urges the Government to think again about continuing the system of conscription, and urges this Parliament and the nation to do everything possible to remove the young conscripts from these places. There is only one way of doing that—to abolish conscription itself.
    Mrs. Manning: Although I am very disappointed at the Minister's reply, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
    NEW CLAUsE.—(Limit on liability to be called up.)
    (1) During the year 1949 no person shall be called up for service under the principal Act on any date subsequent to that on which such person attains the age of 18 years and six months unless an application for the deferment of call-up for service has been made by or on behalf of such person.
    (2) During the year 1950 the maximum age of call-up for service as provided in the immediately preceding Subsection shall be 18 years and nine months, and during the year 1951 and in any subsequent year, during which the principal Act shall remain in force, shall be 19 years.—[Mr. Boyd-Carpenter.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This manuscript new Clause is designed to deal with the same cause of hardship with which the earlier new Clause—[Interval between notice of call-up and registration for service]—moved by the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Swingler) sought to deal. The evil, of course, is the very real evil of the substantial amount of involuntary deferment of call-up which is taking place at this moment under the present legislation and which the speech of the Minister of Defence on the Second Reading led many hon. Members to believe would be gravely and seriously accentuated under the present Bill.
    It is already the fact that some 50,000 young men who might reasonably expect to have been called up by now have been deferred, not because they asked to be deferred, not for any industrial or educational reason, but solely because the Government and the Service Departments did not wish to take them in at this time. As a result, that very substantial number of young men have been delayed for an indefinite period, in consequence of which, of course, they have the greatest difficulty either in finding employment or in continuing their education.
    The disquiet which many of us felt on this matter was very much increased by what the Minister of Defence said on
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    Second Reading, in the paragraph immediately adjoining that which was quoted by the hon. Member for Stafford. The right hon. Gentleman said:
    "It is proposed that, if it is found to be necessary, we should continue the practice of deferring one normal quarterly registration in each of the years 1949, 1950 and 1951. I say 'if necessary' because it is quite possible that in 1949 such a deferment may not be necessary since there is a lower net number of men available for call-up."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 2018.]
    He went on to say that this process, it was contemplated, would be cumulative, with the consequence that by the year 1951 the age of call-up might well be 19.
    Then, as if to add to the uncertainty which that statement must have caused, in the following column the right hon. Gentleman went on to add that financial and other temporary circumstances might cause further changes. It therefore would appear at that stage that it was contemplated by the Government that the whole of the classes of young men approaching the call-up age were to be kept over the next few years in a state of complete uncertainty as to their future, and that it would be made virtually impossible for them to plan any system of training, education or work. It is undoubtedly the fact that delayed call-up is in many ways rather like a delayed action bomb. It paralyses ordinary activity and it therefore inevitably accentuates the very real hardship which any system of compulsory service, whatever its advantages, must necessarily impose upon the young men of this country.
    Already there have been great difficulties caused by this, and I hope I may be allowed to quote one example effecting a constituent of my own. I drew the attention of the Minister of Labour to this case the other day, and I hasten to say that as soon as I drew his attention to it the matter was remedied, but the fact that it should have arisen at all illustrates the point we are seeking to make in this Amendment. It concerns an 18-years-old constituent of mine—at the moment he is 18¾—who sought and obtained a brief deferment for educational purposes. That deferment terminated on 30th September this year. He sought for it to be extended. He was told that it could not by extended and that the education which he was undertaking at that time must be brought to a conclusion. As a public-spirited young

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    man he accepted that decision. In fact he has not yet been called up. He has waited since 30th September and unless the Minister of Labour had personally intervened—and I hasten to say that when these cases are brought to his notice he always intervenes—I have not the slightest doubt that this period of waste and delay would have continued indefinitely.
    On a previous Clause the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) said that the generation with which we are concerned at this moment is one which demanded the special attention of all hon. Members of this House. I wholly agree with that statement because not only has that generation been exposed to grave trials as a result of the conditions of war but we, or at any rate the majority of this House, are imposing upon them, through this Bill, heavy obligations for the security of the community and the safety of the State. It is surely incumbent upon us, therefore, to see that no unnecessary hardship, no unnecessary dislocation and inconvenience, are imposed upon these young men, and it is surely beyond dispute that uncertainty as to the time of call-up does add greatly to the inconvenience that National Service involves without, on the other hand, serving the slightest public purpose.
    Our new Clause, therefore, seeks to limit that in this way. We have taken what was said by the Minister of Defence on Second Reading as to the intention of the Government and we have sought to put into this Bill a provision that young men in the years concerned must be called up on reaching the different ages, by 18½ next year, 18¾ in 1950 and 19 in 1951 and in subsequent years. The advantage of that would be that being in the Bill, it would be possible for any of the age groups approaching National Service to know, with reasonable approximation, when they will be liable to he called up for service. They would be able to plan their lives in that way and would not be subject to dislocation and delay because, when they were due to he called up, it did not happen to suit the convenience either of the Service Department or the Minister of Labour to call them up.
    We do not propose in this Clause that they shall be called up at such an age.
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    We provide that they shall not be called up subsequent to that age. That is to say, we place upon the Government the duty to decide by the time they come to that age whether or not it is desirable to call them up and we deprive the Government of the right to keep them indefinitely on a string, as it were, uncertain whether, and if so when, they are going to be called up.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Perhaps the hon. Member will forgive me interrupting, but we are handicapped because we have not the proposed new Clause before us and we are trying to follow him. Will the hon. Member explain to us where the manuscript Clause differs from the one on the Order Paper, which reads:
    "No person shall be called up for whole-time service under the principal Act on any day subsequent to that on which such person attains the age of eighteen years and six months, unless an application for the deferment of call-up for service has been made by or on behalf of such person."
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I shall gladly do so. I appreciate that the Committee is in a difficulty in dealing with a manuscript Clause. I think the hon. Member was referring to the new Clause on the Order Paper in the same names as those attached to the manuscript Clause. The difference is this, that whereas in the Clause on the Order Paper no man in any year can be called up after he becomes 18 and a half—except where he has himself applied for deferment—under the Clause now before the Committee, a kind of sliding scale is provided; it is 18 and a half next year—that is the same as in the original Clause—but it is 18 and three-quarters the year following, the year 1950, and 19 in 1951.
    10.0 p.m.
    The object of that is, of course, to give the Government time to make the necessary adjustments. We felt that, perhaps, to impose the full 18 and a halt at such a short notice might cause dislocation. We do, however, submit to the Committee that, having to some extent conceded the Government's point of view regarding easier administration, having given them, in fact, three years in which to make up their minds, we have met any possible objection that might arise. It may be that the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) may think that we have been too lenient to the Government's point of view in accepting the principle

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    of any block deferment. If I may say so with respect, that is a very arguable proposition. However, the manuscript Clause itself would constitute a very great improvement upon the present position, and I do think is not subject to any reasonable objection from the right hon. Gentleman. Therefore, if the hon. Member for Stoke does not feel we go far enough, I think, at any rate, he will feel we go in the right direction.
    It is to deal with that very real evil that we bring forward this Amendment. I do not think that any hon. Member can justify the keeping of young men hanging about, kicking their heels, unable to get work, unable to continue their education, waiting daily for an order for call-up. There is, I suppose, no age in a man's life at which compulsory idleness can do more permanent harm than this age, and real social evil is, no doubt, being done, and will continue to be done if this process is permitted to continue. It is, therefore, with a view to preventing this evil, to minimising the impact of compulsory service upon the younger generation, while meeting any legitimate difficulties the Government may see, that I beg to move the new Clause.
    Sir Ian Fraser: In considering this new Clause I should be much influenced by the Minister's answers to one or two questions about certain classes of young men. There is, for example, the young man who has obtained a major, county scholarship or a national scholarship. While he does not want to avoid his military service, it is very important for him and his parents and his schoolmasters that he should know, with the utmost degree of certainty, when he is to be called up, so that the interference with his educational life may be as small as possible.
    Some young men were promised by the Minister that, having obtained a scholarship before last July, they would be called up at once so that they might do their three years' service and come out before October, 1949. Under this Measure they will presumably go on for 18 months, and that will break two of their educational years. That is a bad enough handicap in itself, but it would certainly be worse for such a young man if delay were to take place in his call-up, and if it were to run into the third year of his education. Therefore, the placing
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    of some kind—I think my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) described it as a sliding scale—the placing of some kind of sliding scale, which would limit the period during which the uncertainty could prevail, would be of the utmost benefit.
    Therefore, my question is this. Will those young men who were promised they would be called up before last July so as to get out before October, 1949, still get out before 1949, or, if they must stay for a further six months, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that they will be called up, if they have not already been called up, in time to get out by October, 1950?
    Mr. Isaacs: I appreciate the spirit in which the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) has moved the new Clause and I assure him that we have a great deal of sympathy with the case he has made. The reason that I shall ask the Committee not to accept the Clause is not because we do not want to follow out the principles advocated, but because it will mean very great difficulties and probably a lot of people escaping their service. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames made use of a word which I thought expresses the difficulty which we want to meet. He said that men were delayed for "indefinite" periods. I recognise that it is the indefiniteness of the period that is the trouble. If they knew that they were to be delayed for three, six or nine months they could make their plans. Most young men when they get into the 18 plus ages have some idea about their careers. If they are going in for a scholastic career, they make their plans about going to the universities.
    I will repeat for the benefit of the hon. Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) what I said earlier in that connection. We can meet those cases. If young fellows are going in for apprenticeships, it does not matter when they go into the Forces or come out. While it is necessary for the university student to come out of the Forces at a period which will enable him to begin his university career straight away, instead of waiting for a year, it is not so important for the apprentice because he can pick up his course as soon as he comes out.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: It is just as important.
    Mr. Isaacs: I did not say that it was not as important. It is important that he should have an option, but not so important that he should come out at a precise date. If we call up a university student at a date which brings him out in November, he has lost a year. If we call up an apprentice at a date which brings him out in November, he takes up his apprenticeship right away and does not have to wait. On the other hand, of course, the student has the right of deferment. If we raise the age of call-up to 18¾ or 19 there will still be the same indefiniteness as if he were liable to call-up at the ordinary age of 18, because he will still have to make up his mind whether he is going to be called up then or not.
    We want to do what I have already indicated on an earlier Clause. Quite frankly and definitely I say that it is wrong that young men and their parents should be left in a position in which they do not know actually when their sons are to be called up. We accept that. I hope that early in the New Year it will be possible to bring forward a table giving the groups which are likely to be called up for a year ahead. That will not only give them the advantage of letting them know when they will be called up, but those who may be affected can come along and say, "We want to be called up earlier,"—as they can be under the Act—and "instead of coming out in December we would like to be called up three months earlier and come out in October." We can do that. We are anxious, however, that there should be no complete escape from service.
    There are many reasons which may defer these call-ups, apart from the question of which age group we are going to call. We are calling up at the present moment those between 18 and three months and 18 and six months. We get cases of men who may desire to enter a particular Service and that Service may not require them at the moment and, therefore, they are held back. We do not want them to find that they are held back and can escape service. Some may want to enter a branch of a particular Service. They may have to wait for a vacancy. A man may come along with a good knowledge of radio. The Forces may say, "We should be glad to have that
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    man, but we should be over our quota if we took him at the moment into that unit." Therefore, at the Service request he may be outside.
    There is a third class of case, where illness at the date of registration causes delay; the man is registered later, and possibly finds himself outside his age group. There are also men about whose medical condition we are not satisfied; they are sent to a consultant, and may be outside. Again, a man asked to register in May or June may be away on a couple of weeks' holiday; he comes back, sees the employment exchange manager, gets a new date for registration and finds himself outside.
    I do not want to make a long speech, but I should like to answer the question of the hon. Member for Lonsdale in regard to students. This has been said earlier, but I repeat it now. Young men liable after 1st January next for eighteen months will be able, as at present, to apply for deferment to complete their studies before call-up if they so wish, and such applications will generally be granted. If they choose to do their military service first they will be able to ask to be called up earlier in order to be out in time, having done their 18 months, to go to the university in October. Generally, this will be allowed. We do want to deal with these cases, but there are these difficulties. I trust I am not repeating myself ad nauseam.
    Sir I. Fraser: Does what the Minister has just said mean that a student may opt, or at any rate apply with reasonable grounds for expecting an affirmative answer, to do the whole of a university course before he is called up?
    Mr. Isaacs: Yes, Sir, and some are doing it now. But in fairness to the university authorities, I ought to say that they prefer that the young man, in his own interest, should do it before he goes. This scheme is working very well indeed, and we are not having any trouble with it.
    I would repeat that, we accept the principle of this Amendment, but we ask the Committee, because of all the uncertainties of the future, not to tie us too tightly in the Bill. We appreciate how important it is for young men and their parents to know when these lads are liable for registration and call-up,

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    and we will give as much advance notice of our registration programme as is possible. At the present moment it is a minimum of three months from notice of registration to call-up. We most definitely intend to extend that, and we hope to give notice of a programme of registration. That is not merely notice that certain groups will be called up in a certain time, but the publication of a programme. I hope to be able to publish very soon a programme for the whole of next year. I am not sure yet; we are working on it. If it is possible—I do not know that it will be, but I think we can cover six months—I personally hope to be able to publish a programme for the whole of next year, so that everybody will know exactly where they stand for that particular period. Should we find it possible to do that next year, there is nothing to prevent it being done in the following year. I hope the hon. Member will accept those assurances.
    Mr. Eden: I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has tried to meet the spirit of this new Clause. Perhaps I might say that I am gratified by what he said but not satisfied—at least, not entirely satisfied. We shall scrutinise very carefully this document which we hear is to be produced early in the New Year to see how far it allays our anxiety. I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that one of the reasons why I am still troubled is because of something he let fall, if I understood him aright, on an earlier Amendment. I jotted his words down. He said that the numbers called up under the present scheme will be influenced by the success or failure of the Regular recruiting result. Well, that is just what worries me. In other words, this call-up will be a tap which is turned on or off in accordance with the success of the Regular recruiting system. That makes it difficult, if not almost impossible, for the Government to make up their minds on any kind of definite programme for these young men.
    Mr. Isaacs: We hope to be able to clear up the point on numbers before making our announcement.
    Mr. Eden: That is to say, the Government will make up their minds how far their recruiting scheme has been a success for the Regular Forces, and, therefore,
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    how many men they want over a period ahead?
    10.15 p.m.
    Mr. Isaacs: As far as we can for the period ahead.
    Mr. Eden: I am obliged. I cannot see that this should be so difficult, or why the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is such a remarkable feat to be able to decide for a year ahead. Surely, when the Government took a decision that the period must be 18 months and not a year, they must have done it on the basis of some form of military budget. Their Chiefs of Staff and advisers must have come to them and said, "That is the number we must have. We cannot obtain this on the basis of a year, therefore we want 18 months." I simply cannot see why it is impossible to budget for at least a year ahead, and the Government should do that in the interests of these young men.
    To show how important this question can be, the right hon. Gentleman said, in replying to another proposed new Clause, that we might have to turn the tap off later on because recruiting for the Regular Forces was going so well. We all hope it will go well, but look where that may land us if the tap is to be turned off more. The deferment piles up and we shall have the position where 20's and 21's are concerned and not 19's. So I repeat that, although we do not want to press this manuscript Clause to a Division, this complicated problem requires the careful thought of the Committee. I am obliged to the Government for the consideration they have given, we shall watch their proposal, and we beg them to realise that what they have told us, although I know they are trying to meet us, does not really satisfy us on the main issue.
    Mr. Byers: I do not intend to detain the Committee long, but I think the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) has been a little too lenient with the Minister of Labour. I do not want to cross swords with the Minister because I think that as far as National Service is concerned he has a far better reputation than any of the Service Ministers. This is a question of certainty, and certainty is very important indeed from the point of view of the people who are to be called up. In

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    rejecting this proposed Clause, the Government are pleading tonight that they want flexibility. That is the old argument of administrative convenience, and where the interests of the individual are concerned this House ought to throw its weight in on the side of the individual.
    The Minister said there would be all sorts of difficulties. He said, "If we had this Amendment, we might allow a lot of people to escape their Service obligation." A lot of people will escape their Service obligation as it is. We are deferring 110,000 a year——
    Mr. Isaacs Mr. Isaacs indicated dissent.
    Mr. Byers: Those are the deferment figures given to us. The Minister of Defence said that because so many people would be available for call-up, it would be necessary to call them up at different stages in their careers. Is anybody going to tell me that we shall catch up on these deferments? If we are to make up the back log of last year there will be too many people on hand and we shall get to a stage where we must let one class off. That point has been made from all quarters of the House. We are getting to an inequitable situation where we shall be deferring half the people who register. We shall call up 180,000 out of 327,000. Those figures have been given already.
    As far as certainty is concerned, it seems to me absolutely vital that the Government should be given the responsibility for getting the people they want in and then letting the others off. That is what it amounts to. We cannot keep holding this obligation of service over the heads of people year in and year out. It is almost cat-and-mouse. Speaking as a university graduate, I say quite frankly that I think the remarks about apprentices—although there is 'some truth in them—are not really remarks which can be accepted by this Committee. If an apprentice is going to be given this uncertainty which is not to be given to a university undergraduate, it seems quite indefensible. There are people today who, having served an apprenticeship of two or three years, go into the Armed Forces and decide they are not going back as apprentices, but want a man's wage. The least one can do for these people is to give them a definite date, so that they can say, "I am taking this amount out of my apprenticeship" not
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    "I shall hang on thinking I am going to be called up perhaps this year, or perhaps next year," and so on.
    I suggest to the Government in all fairness on the question of certainty that it is no use the Minister putting forward a programme. He said, "I am going to put forward a programme"—and said it in that charming way of his—"of the people who are likely to be called up and the dates on which they are likely to be called up." That is not good enough. The Government have to be able to give a guarantee.
    I think the Clause put forward by the Conservative Party is a right one. Certainty must be given. Otherwise the programme will be put forward and, a few months later, someone will come to the Despatch Box and say, "As a matter of fact we cannot do that. We have now changed it." Then there will be uncertainty for hundreds of thousands of young men, which I do not think is good enough. If the Minister gave an undertaking that he would look at this matter again, the Committee might be satisfied, but I am not satisfied with the Minister's speech tonight.
    Major Legge-Bourke: I wish to lodge a protest. The Minister of Labour has a very pleasant way and when he answered my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) I thought he answered very reasonably. I wish however to protest at the arrangement of Government Business which has made this haste necessary. It seems to me that the Government knew about the time of the Debate on the Address, that they were to introduce this Bill. Surely we should have been given time for proper consideration——
    The Chairman: I do not think that arises at all on the proposed new Clause. The hon. and gallant Member is entitled to deal with the merits of the new Clause, but not with extraneous matters.
    Major Legge-Bourke: I think, if you allow me to proceed, Major Milner, you will see how this is connected with the new Clause. The new Clause is a complicated one and we have had to put down in manuscript form, but, if Government Business had been arranged in another way, it would not have been necessary to do that.
    The Chairman: I think I ought to say to the hon. and gallant Member that the manuscript Clause was admitted by me because it was a mere extension in substitution for another new Clause. I do not think the hon. and gallant Member ought to complain about that admission.
    Major Legge-Bourke: If I may say so, surely if a little more time had been available for the Opposition to draft Amendments, it would not have been necessary for the original new Clause to have been put down.
    May I turn to the proposed new Clause itself? We should try to realise what numbers of men we are dealing with in this new Clause. Particularly we should know what numbers the Government are relying on to come in under National Service each month, because if they are going to reserve the right to defer people, it is very important that we should make sure the Government are making the best use of the men they defer whether it be at one age, or another.
    In his speech on Second Reading, the Minister of Defence told us that there would be 165,000 men available for National Service in 1949. Of these, he said that there would probably be deferment for about 35,000. A total of 165,000 works out at about 13,700 per month. About 2,900 will be deferred each month on an average, although I dare say that the actual figure will vary from month to month. That will mean that under National Service approximately 10,000 men a month will be going into the three Services. These are the men who will be greatly affected by the new Clause which we are considering and who will benefit by it. I hope that the Committee will realise that the interests of 10,000 men are worthy of consideration, especially on the lines which my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) has suggested.
    The Minister of Labour has presented a very reasonable reply. I fully accept that, but I believe it to be quite scandalous that the Government should have presented this Bill before they had considered these points. The Government say that they are to issue a statement early in the New Year. In view of the fact that this Bill was to be presented we should have had that statement before
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    the Bill came before us. We could then have judged whether or not this Clause is really necessary and whether it should be taken to a Division or not. As it is, we have to rely on the Government's good faith in the matter and we have had some pretty unpleasant lessons in that respect. We relied on the Government's good faith earlier in connection with National Service, and we know where that led us. I was one of those who congratulated the Government on having had the courage to introduce conscription in peace time. We have been let down before, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not let us down again.
    The right hon. Gentleman has given some categorical assurances to my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden). I hope that he will honour them. If he does not, I can assure him that it is not the Opposition which will suffer for it but approximately 10,000 men throughout the country each month. I believe that the interests of those men should be looked after. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman would, if he had his way, do it rather better than some of his colleagues. There is one other consideration in respect of this new Clause which we ought to consider. What is to happen to these men? Are they just to be deferred or are they to be used in some other way. I believe that there is another avenue for their employment in connection with the defence of the country. There is the Territorial Army in particular——
    The Chairman: That does not arise on the Motion before the Committee.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Like my right hon. Friend, I was perhaps more soothed by the right 'hon. Gentleman's manner than by the substance of his speech. I appreciate that he understands the very serious point which is at issue. I should very much dislike this matter to be pressed controversially to a Division, but I hope that if I request the permission of the Committee to withdraw the new Clause, the right hon. Gentleman will not for that reason think that there is any lack of feeling in all quarters of the Committee on this point. It was at any rate some relief to our disquiet that the right hon. Gentleman did adopt a noticeably different attitude on this question

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    to that which the Minister of Defence indicated in his speech on the Second Reading. Therefore, having indicated to the Minister of Labour that we shall watch very closely the statement which he has promised to issue in the New Year—and we shall urge upon him the desirability of giving at least a full year's notice to which he referred—I ask permission to withdraw the Clause.
    Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
    Bill reported without Amendment.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[Mr. Alexander.]
    10.31 p.m.
    Brigadier Head: I do not wish to detain the House very long at this late hour, but I can say that I have listened to the Second Reading and Committee stage in complete silence. I think there are in this Bill implications connected with the raising of the period to 18 months which have not been sufficiently mentioned in the discussions we have had, and I should like to mention certain points which seem to me of very great importance in the consideration of this Bill.
    I can claim that I made similar remarks when the original 18 months' period was asked for. National Service is something formative in the creation of habits in the young men who are to be called up. That is to say, if during that period of 18 months for which the Bill provides, a lad gets bad habits, it is a bad show and we give to the whole of the youth of this country the worst possible start in life. The men in the Regular Service who have to do this job of training are being turned into a kind of national university in which there is an 18 months' course for the whole of the nation. If hon. Gentlemen agree with me thus far, I assume that, by once again putting the period back to 18 months, the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Labour, and certainly the Prime Minister, have fully satisfied themselves that the state of the national university—the Regular Services—is of an adequate and competent standard.
    Before this Bill becomes law, I should like to state that I have very grave fears that we need to give careful consideration
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    to whether the pay and conditions in the Regular Services are of such a standard as is required to maintain their instruction at adequate levels for this vital job. We are taking this extra period in every young man's life, this formative period, in which he will form habits which will last a lifetime. If these habits are bad, we shall not only have wasted these 18 months for industry, but we shall have given the young man a start which may well cause waste in industry for the rest of his life. I ask, therefore, that the closest consideration be given to this matter, for these young men will play a predominant rôle in this scheme.
    Another point which has not had so much consideration as it might have received is that referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter)—the question of the surplus. It is a matter of interest that in 1947, the only year for which we have full statistics, the number registered was 300,000 and the number called up was 183,000. That was a very big disparity indeed. It was got rid of in two ways—namely, by deferment and by reserved occupations. The new factors which this Bill brings in are twofold. First, there is the attitude of the Minister of Defence that he must get more recruits into the Regular Forces, and we all hope he will succeed; and secondly, during the 18 months' period the demands of the Services are likely, through additional use of these men during the latter period of their service. to be less.
    Therefore, the tendency under the existing situation will be for the surplus gradually to become bigger as time goes on. It is evident from the remarks of the Minister of Labour that it is his intention to deal with this surplus, however much it increases, by increasing the number of deferments so that ultimately, if this be continued into the future, men will come to be called up at 25. This would be a disastrous policy, but it is the long-term policy of the Government at the moment. If this Measure has come to stay and if we recruit more Regulars, we shall have to look to a far bigger surplus; but when we have that surplus, what indication have we from the Government about how they are going to deal with it? To

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    continue with deferment is a vicious policy and a failure to face up to the situation. I deplore wholeheartedly the fact we have had no word to indicate that the Government have thought of this problem. If they have thought of it, why have they not come to the House and said, "We have considered this and our views are this or that"?
    My last point concerns the rather uncertain statement made by the Minister of Defence about the aim of the Bill. My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington asked the Minister this question: Granted that we have 18 months, is it the Government's object to get rid of National Service at the earliest opportunity by increasing the number of Regulars by voluntary recruitment and so to get rid of this unpopular Measure altogether? When the Minister of Defence answered, I considered that twice he gave a very evasive reply, and in the sense that he meant it to be evasive, I grant that he succeeded very well. I think it is disastrous that he should be evasive on this Bill.
    It is my belief that the right position is to go in for voluntary enlistment for the Regular Forces, because that satisfies the needs of modern warfare and it satisfies the desires of the nation. We want that and we will do our best to get it. It would be much better to say that we might get rid of National Service than to make some woolly remarks the meaning of which we do not quite know. It is most regrettable that the Government do not come out in the open and say that. It would have been a good thing if we could have been given something of the facts.
    Has the Manpower Committee, which was never consulted in 1948, made any estimate of these things? What chance is there of having any actuarial estimate of what saving there would be to the nation by doing away with National Service eventually, not only in terms of money but also in terms of industry? Let us take that as a line which should be worked out. Let some investigating committee work out on that basis what terms should be offered to make voluntary longterm recruitment really attractive. I wonder whether that has been done. I have a nasty feeling that it has not, but
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    I have also a feeling that if it were worked out, then we should find that for the long-term Service man the terms were very attractive indeed. It seems to me that the Government's present idea is, "We have National Service, and we will continue it for eighteen months. Long-term service is a good thing, but we shall never get good rates of pay past the Treasury. We must not quarrel with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has a really big job at the moment, so will take just one little bite of the cherry and give these small increases to the Regular Forces."
    My last point is that it is most regrettable that the House has been given no indication of the future policy of the Government in respect of doing away with the eighteen months' service and whether the matter has been considered, as well as the alternative, in terms of the saving of manpower in the interests of its industry.
    10.42 p.m.
    Mr. Frank Byers: I should like to say, on behalf of my colleagues, that I consider this Bill disastrous from the point of view of the defences of this country. We have listened to speech after speech which has proved conclusively that the Government should be forced to adopt a comprehensive Defence policy which would give us Armed Forces based upon the voluntary principle as quickly as possible. At the same time we have had votes in the Division Lobbies giving the Government a blank cheque for the next five years. It is not good enough. We of the Liberal Party put down an Amendment limiting this period to 1952. I am not complaining because it was not called, but when are we going to settle on a policy which will give us professional Armed Forces strong enough to defend this country in the event of an emergency and fulfil our international commitments?
    The statement made by the Minister of Defence about refusing to give a bribe in order to get men in was disgraceful. That statement will meet with a typical reception throughout the whole of the professional Armed Forces of this country tomorrow morning. They will—and I am not associating myself with the exact suggestions made by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget)—

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    see that the Minister of Defence said that we have got to compel men to go into the Forces, because we are not prepared to pay the professional rate for the job.
    Mr. Alexander Mr. Alexander indicated dissent.
    Mr. Byers: That is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman said.
    Mr. Alexander: I said nothing of the sort.
    Mr. Byers: Yes, the right hon. Gentleman did.
    Mr. Alexander: That is quite untrue. My reference to the bribe was in regard to a statement made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton that a £500 bonus should be given to Regular Army men.
    Mr. Speaker: Conscription is not an argument on the Third Reading of this Bill. That has already been agreed to by the House.
    Mr. Byers: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to argue the case for the £500, but I should like to say, in passing, that that amount of money over a five- or seven-year period on the Reserves, is not really a very great amount.
    Mr. Alexander: The hon. Member for Northern Dorset (Mr. Byers) should withdraw the statement he made, because it is quite untrue.
    Mr. Byers: I certainly will not withdraw, but I will repeat—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw"]. I certainly will not withdraw—[Interruption]. Did the Under-Secretary of State for Air say that it was a lie?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. de Freitas)The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. de Freitas) indicated assent.
    Mr. Byers: Then it is his memory against mine. I repeat what I said, that the statement will go out to the professional Armed Forces tomorrow morning as an indication that the Government are not prepared to pay the rate for the job.
    Mr. Alexander: I said nothing of the sort. The hon. Member is not man enough to withdraw his remark.
    Mr. Byers: I must protest, Mr. Speaker, that if the right hon. Gentleman,
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    is calling into question my courage, I can only say——
    Mr. Speaker: Did the hon. Gentleman use the word lie? I was not quite sure.
    Mr. Byers: The Under-Secretary of State for Air said that what I had said was a lie. I am not asking him to withdraw it. I am suggesting that the statement of the Minister of Defence will go out to the professional Armed Forces as an indication that the Government are not prepared to pay the rate for the job. I am not going to withdraw that, and I do not think that is lack of courage.
    I should like to put it to the Government that there was no indication whatever by the Minister of Defence of any intention by the Government to do anything more than they have done to increase the number of volunteers in the Army over the total of 195,000 by 1st January, 1950. They expect to get, at the most, from 10,000 to 20,000 volunteers into the Armed Forces between now and 1st January, 1950. It seems to me to be quite wrong that we should allow the Government to get away with this. We have had no assurance that there is to be a comprehensive policy to improve conditions and pay in order to increase the proportion of volunteers in the Armed Forces.
    Are we going to accept the fact that 50 per cent. of our Armed Forces, apart from the Navy, are to be conscripts under the age of 20? Is that safe from the Defence point of view? I have only to refer to hon. Members above the Gangway on this side who have had plenty of experience of this. It seems that we are going to be unsafe in the future. This Bill is a disaster. The Government should have been forced to produce a proper policy to provide professional Armed Forces in the quickest time. The international situation demands that we get the recruits now, to form the basis of an efficient professional Armed Force.
    10.48 p.m.
    Mr. Bellenger: Before this Bill leaves the House and passes further on its way to becoming law, I should like to say a few serious words, and I hope that my right hon. Friends in the Government will take note of them. I have had responsibility for control of the War Office, and I know that what the

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    hon. Member for Northern Dorset (Mr. Byers) has just said is well apart from the truth. I have tried, in so phrasing it, to be a little more diplomatic than perhaps my hon. Friend on the Front Bench, who was alleged to have spoken in stronger words about what the hon. Member said. I wonder why the Secretary of State for War, or the Minister of Defence, does not immediately rebut the point of view which has just been put by the hon. Member for Northern Dorset. They can, if they wish, because the target at which the Army is aiming is certainly more than 190,000.
    Mr. Byers: That was the figure given by the Minister of Defence in the Second Reading Debate last Wednesday. It is in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have that figure from the right hon. Gentleman. Will he deny it?
    Mr. Bellenger: I am now asking the Secretary of State for War to say that that is not correct. Then I am going to tell the House that, unless conditions have changed since I left office, the figure was beyond 190,000.
    Mr. Byers: The right hon Gentleman must remember——
    Mr. Bellenger: I cannot give way now; I will do so in a moment, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will allow me to say what I have to say. When I was Secretary of State for War, I think that I said the target for the Army was in the region of 200,000 and, on one occasion at least, I said it was 220,000. The memory of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War is incorrect. I really must emphasise the point that when I was at the War Office I said that the target was in the region of 200,000, and up to 220,000 and, so far as I recollect, I never said anything about 250,000 being the target for the Army at that time.
    Mr. Byers: If the right hon. Gentleman is correct, then we do not need the 18 months' service, but the Minister for Defence made it clear in the Debate last week when he said:
    "…I cannot give a firm estimate because I do not know what recruits there will be in the next 12 months—of a possible total of 195,000 Regulars in the Army and 100,000 to 110,000 National Service mon."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 2016–71
    Mr. Bellenger: I am trying to tell the House of the position when I was at the War Office. Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War say whether the situation has changed? If he will only do that, he can refute what has been said by the hon. Member for Northern Dorset.
    Now I have something to say about what I believe the target to be since I left office. I believe the Regular recruiting target for the Army is 220,000—and this is not merely a personal opinion. What my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War has misunderstood is my statement as to what I believe the Regular Army should take as its upper recruiting figure in order to do away with a large part of the necessity for this Bill. When the Secretary of State for War was making his winding-up speech in the Second Reading Debate, he said he would come to the final point of whether we should rely entirely on a Regular Army and that, if we had a large enough Regular force, there would be no need for conscription. I interjected to say "How large?" but my right hon. Friend evaded the point. I am not going to evade that point.
    I wish to give my opinion, which I hope will be accepted as a responsible opinion, because it is shared by others. I think that if my right hon. Friend would take his courage in his hands, as the hon. Member for Northern Dorset has said he was taking his, and aim at a quarter of a million Regular recruits, we could do away with a large part of conscription. I want to make my position absolutely clear. I have supported the principle of conscription ever since it was first introduced into this House just before the last war.
    Mr. James Hudson: Shame.
    Mr. Bellenger: My hon. Friend may say "Shame," but I adhered to the idea at that time, and I adhere to it tonight because the Government must have the forces necessary to protect this country in the disturbed conditions of today. Therefore, I am bound to give my support to the Third Reading of this Bill, as I gave it to the Second Reading. One cannot deviate from a principle as great as this. I am bound also to say to His Majesty's Government that I am deeply disturbed

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    at some of the statements which have fallen from the lips of responsible Ministers. I am disturbed at what I believe may very well be a breach of the principle, the only principle on which I can support His Majesty's Government on this matter, namely, that there should be no exclusion, as the hon. Member for Northern Dorset has said, or as the Opposition may or may not have had in mind when they moved their Amendment a little earlier. If it is the intention, because of the circumstances, to make large deferments so that we have classes in this country who will escape their obligations, then I say to the Government that I shall withdraw my support from conscription.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Does my right hon. Friend recall the speech he made at the Winter Garden, Blackpool, in 1945?
    Mr. Bellenger: Certainly, I remember it. I remember it well because when was in office it was repeated, wrongly I am bound to say, by the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) when he tried to quote what he thought were my intentions. I said then, if it is in Order to refer to it, that I was not enamoured of the principle of conscription, but that His Majesty's Government would have to bring in a new Measure which they have done. I supported them when they brought in that Measure in 1947. There is no other country in Western Europe today, with the exception of Spain—and I underline that—which is carrying as we are carrying, the burden of 18 months' conscription of our young men. I hope the Government will understand the significance of that. I think I am right in saying that Holland, Belgium, France—and the principle even extends as far away as Americahave not a period of 18 months for their National Service men. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not France."] France has not 18 months. [Interruption.] It is one year.
    I am trying to put my reasons for supporting the Government, and what I am saying is that, as the Debate proceeded from Second Reading to Third Reading, I have been very disturbed at some of the statements made by my right hon. Friends. I say to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War that it is his duty to recruit the Regular Army
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    to full strength. I would also say to him—and I think it needs saying—that it does not help recruiting to depreciate the Regular troops constantly. I regret that some of the words uttered by my right hon. Friend about Regular troops have not been to my liking.
    Mr. Shinwell: Might I ask my right hon. Friend to quote some of these words?
    Mr. Bellenger: When my right hon. Friend, in his winding-up speech the other day, was referring to the conditions of the Regular Army, and the conditions prevailing between commissioned officers, non-commissioned officers and men, I wanted to challenge the basis of his assumption, and I found he was quoting from the report of a committee which I set up.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to substantiate his statement that I depreciated the Regular soldiers?
    Mr. Bellenger: Many of the newspapers have congratulated him——
    Mr. Shinwell Mr. Shinwell rose——
    Mr. Bellenger: Many of the newspapers congratulated him on his frankness and candour. That frankness is inherent in the condemnation of certain of the relations now prevailing between officers and non-commissioned officers.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will my right hon. Friend forget about the newspapers and my candour for the moment, and be good enough to prove what he has stated, namely, that I depreciated the Regular troops?
    Mr. Bellenger: I hope my right hon. Friend will read his own words. It may be only his opinion against mine but reading the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, I think that his remarks were a condemnation of the conditions prevailing in the Regular Army, and they were not all concentrated on the living conditions in which the Army is serving. At any rate, I ask my right hon. Friend to let the House see the document from which he was quoting. Let him publish it so that we can judge for ourselves whether he was right in saying that these conditions in the Regular Army at the moment are not all to be desired.

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    Remarks have been made this evening that everything depends on the Regular Army. I believe that to be quite correct. I believe the only reason for the introduction of this Bill is that we have not recruited sufficient Regular Forces. I believe that to be the position. My hon. Friends have challenged me as to why I support the Government. I will tell them. It is because of the lamentable fact that we have not enough Regular troops that we are forced to take the conscripts. It is an evil necessity, and it is because we have that evil necessity, that I am bound to support the Government. But I shall watch the Government very closely indeed to see that we are getting the Regular troops. I believe they can be got up to the target which I set of 250,000.
    I do not believe that the answer lies entirely in excessive rates of pay. When my right hon. Friend dismissed the suggestion of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), I think he was quite right, because a £500 bonus is excessive. I urge him, however, not to close his mind to the possibility of a bonus. It has been done in the last two or three years in the short-service enlistments. I will make a suggestion to the Secretary of State for War if he is in the mood to listen. It might be possible to go back to the three years' Colour Service with nine years on the Reserve. That used to prevail in the Guards I believe, and there might be the possibility of getting a certain number of men to take that sort of engagement. That would provide well and adequately trained soldiers, because I do not think 18 months gives us trained soldiers, and it certainly does not give us trained airmen. One of the purposes for the Bill is to produce a large number of trained Reserves. If that is what we want, I suggest we need a longer period of Reserve service.
    I hope the House and my right hon. Friend will understand that I have only spoken because I am deeply concerned about the future for my own party. Let us make no mistake about it—this is not going to be a popular Measure in the country. It will be accepted only because the country really believes that we must have it, as they believed it was necessary in the war. Nevertheless, after the words
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    the Secretary of State for War used to the effect that a Regular Army can do away with conscription, the country will expect the Government to get on with the job.
    11.5 p.m.
    Mr. McCorquodale: The House will not expect me to join in this private quarrel between the Secretary of State for War and his immediate predecessor. No doubt they can continue the argument outside. But I think I shall have support from all sections of the House when I say that the Government have cut a very sorry figure throughout these proceedings. That cannot be gainsaid. I rise to put one particular and rather technical point. Although one would not have noticed it from the proceedings, this Bill has been presented by the Minister of Labour and National Service. He has been allowed to come in on only two small Amendments, and has apparently now gone. I had wished to make my comments to him, but as his Parliamentary Secretary is here, I will direct them to him instead.
    I believe that a great deal of the muddle the Government have got into is due to this point, although I do not expect the Minister of Defence to admit it. I know from my experience that the officials and advisers of the Ministry of Labour have vast experience in all the problems of manpower and call-up to the Forces. They know the effect of the call-up on the young man, his difficulties, and his career. The Debate has shown that the Minister of Labour is over-ruled by the Minister of Defence and his advisers on these matters. I would say, with all due deference, that the Minister of De. fence and his advisers are amateurs it this matter.
    It is not their job. The Ministry of Defence should not be allowed to dictate to the Ministry of Labour and National Service on problems connected with the call-up. The right hon. Gentlemen's speech on Second Reading, and many of the questions that have been raised today, show conclusively that many of the problems of the call-up are not under, stood in his Department. Let him leave the problems of the call-up, and the administrative details attached to it, to the Ministry of Labour and National Service. where they belong. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ginger up his Minister

    185
    to insist that control in this province should be in his own hands.
    Let the Minister of Labour see that the programme is laid down in detail, as he has promised, and that the young man knows when he is to be called up. Let him be given ample notice, as has been said in the Debate today, so that not only the young man but his employer also, can make the necessary arrangements. Then let the Minister of Labour—and I emphasise that—having announced his plans and his timetable, stick to them, and not be over-ruled by the Minister of Defence. In this way only shall we be able to minimise the hardship and difficulties which the call-up causes to young men. I am sure that a great deal of the difficulty and muddle which has been displayed on the Front Bench today is because these matters, which are properly the province of the Ministry of Labour, have been allowed to get out of their hands and into the amateur hands of the Ministry of Defence.
    11.9 p.m.
    Mr. Hale: I have all my life been opposed to conscription. I am opposed to it today. It is antipathetic to the British character, and does not bring forward the best that the British character can produce. This is an occasion when one has to face the realities of the situation. I do not believe there is any person on these Benches who voted for the Bill with pleasure. I do not believe there is any person on the Government Front Bench who introduced this Bill without reluctance and grave consideration.
    The case against the Bill has been put ably, temperately and forcefully by several of my hon. Friends. I think that the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo) put the case with very great ability. The Bill will damage our economic effort. It will cause very grave hardship to many of our mothers and parents. I think it a personal tragedy that I should be voting tonight for a Measure of this sort, which I have opposed all my life, at a time when I have an only son, 18 years of age, who is a sergeant in the A.T.C. and whose career will be seriously affected.
    But in my view the case put forward for the Measure is unanswerable, and it has not been answered. The case is that
    186
    recruitment for the Regular Army has failed to reach expectations. The case is that the international situation has gravely deteriorated. I am sorry, having regard to the gravity of the international situation, that this Debate has taken place in the atmosphere in which it has taken place, and that we have heard so much derisory cheering. In my view, the duty of hon. Members supporting the Government on this issue is clear. If the Government come to them at a time like this—after the long, difficult and arduous Debate when the National Service Bill was brought forward last time—knowing the feeling in the party and the reluctance with which we should support such a Measure, and knowing the implications of the international situation, I should have thought their duty was clear. I recently came back by flying boat from Australia. I did not land in any country in the world in which a war was not in progress. The situation in China and in France and throughout the world is one that gives every thoughtful person cause for fear. It is a tragedy for the world that that fear is there.
    My hon. Friends ought to think about the implications of the vote they will cast tonight. A vote against this Bill is a vote for the fall of the Government. It is not right that on a major Measure we should look to the support of the Opposition to ensure for this Bill an uneasy passage. We feel that this Measure is essential in the interests of national security. Our obligations make such a Measure as this necessary. It seems to me that my hon. Friends who are opposed to this Measure. if they vote against it, will bring about the fall of the Government and the introduction of conscription by a Conservative Government——
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: How can they?
    Mr. Hale: My hon. Friend has given the whole game away. He says, "Let us please the constituents by going into the Lobby and giving a vote against the Bill, because we know it will not take effect." In deciding at a time like this how they should vote, hon. Members should vote in the way they think best for the country, and shoulder the responsibility of so doing. I think it is right that I should say this, as one who has been opposed to conscription all his life and detests the idea of it. For the

    187
    many reasons put forward, and relying upon the implied undertaking that the Government will face up to the allegation, made and substantiated, of the wastage of manpower in the Armed Forces; the need for improving conditions of recruiting for the Regular Forces, and the clear wish of the House that this Measure should last as short a time as possible, there is no alternative but unreservedly to support the Government in this issue tonight.
    11.14 p.m.
    Mr. Shinwell: I had an invitation to attend another pugilistic encounter tonight, but was unable to do so. Therefore I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) for having enlivened the proceedings by making a mild attack upon myself. It is a modest consolation.
    We have already, as the result of the Second Reading Debate, agreed not only upon the principle of conscription, but upon the need for extending National Service by an additional six months. All we have to consider in this Third Reading Debate is whether, in all the circumstances, the right course was taken and, above all—and this, I agree, is extremely important—whether the men who are to be compelled into the Service—for indeed that is what it amounts to—are to be treated not only with the utmost consideration, but are to receive the most expert guidance in respect of their military training. These are vital considerations. Therefore, I find myself, perhaps very oddly and almost for the first time, in agreement with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head).
    Brigadier Head: Progress.
    Mr. Shinwell: Progress? Probably progress on his part, now that he knows that his views coincide not only with mine but also with those of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. But before I proceed to deal with the submissions, and quite proper submissions, which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has made to the Government, there is one statement I must make in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale). He made the astonishing statement that this Bill
    188
    was presented in its present form because of Government muddle. I repudiate that allegation entirely; and I certainly will not accept the view he implied in what he said, that the Minister of Defence was responsible. We have to face the realities of the situation internationally, it is true, but more particularly the realities of the situation which derive from the fact that the House accepted the principle of National Service more than a year ago. Having accepted the principle of National Service, the House is bound to accept the implications of its decision. One of the implications of that decision was and is, and will be, that we must make ourselves responsible for the treatment of National Service men. That is the position.
    I turn to the submissions of the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton. First, he maintains that if we are to build up the Regular Forces, we must make ourselves responsible for providing the highest possible pay and the very best conditions. Nobody on this side takes exception to that observation—[HON. MEMBER: "Except the Treasury."]—Nobody on this side takes exception to that observation, but we have to consider the pay and allowances of officers and other ranks in the three Services in relation to comparable pay and allowances in civilian employment.
    May I be allowed to say that that is exactly the position the Government have taken in this matter? Of course, it is true that officers and other ranks—at any rate, many of them—will remain dissatisfied, but that is not uncommon even among the civilian population, as we are well aware, and we have to put up with the discontents that arise from time to time in certain quarters. But I maintain that although the position may not be regarded as wholly satisfactory, although officers and other ranks may still complain that their wants have not been sufficiently attended to, the Government have done the very best in difficult financial circumstances, always bearing in mind that we must not raise the standards too high in the Services in comparison with conditions outside the Services.
    Mr. Byers: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how he expects to get another 100,000 or 150,000 recruits for the Army unless he does that?
    Mr. Shinwell: If hon. Members will restrain themselves a little, they will find that I shall come to all their points, because I have them in mind. I have listened intently to all that was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger). As I have said, I listened to all the speeches, or at any rate the salient parts, and that is what really matters.
    I want to make a submission to hon. Members, and I think there is validity in this submission. Pay and allowances are exceedingly important, and we as a Government attach great importance to them, as do the officers and other ranks. But what is equally important, if not more important, are the conditions in the Services, such as the provision of married quarters, barrack room accommodation, provision of amenities, and I venture to repeat what I said on Second Reading, and I repeat it without apology—it is on record—happy relationships between officers and men. It is of the highest importance that they should be so. [Interruption] The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw will get his answer in a moment, and perhaps more than an answer before I am finished. I did not start this row. That should be noted. I am not responsible for starting this little quarrel. It very often happens that one feels peaceful and very benevolent, almost like Father Christmas, and then someone drags in an affront. Of course, if there is a fight going around, unless it is a private quarrel, I do not mind joining it.
    I repeat that these conditions are of the utmost importance. I will concede, both in this assembly and outside, that the conditions are, as yet, far from satisfactory. That is not entirely the fault of this Government, and I will refute at once with emphasis that it is entirely the fault of the present Secretary of State for War. Although I am not blaming anyone in the least, hon. Members must draw their own conclusions. Let it not be assumed from what I have said and what others have said in this respect that the conditions are entirely unsatisfactory. There is excellent barrack accommodation in some parts of the country. There are excellent married quarters, and officers have living conditions which are impeccable. Conditions at home, in B.A.O.R., and even in the Middle East
    190
    and in the Far East are in some respects very satisfactory. The fact is that conditions are patchy; they are good, bad and indifferent.
    It must be the resolve of the Government, as it is their resolve through the Minister of Defence and the Service Ministers, of whom I am one, to do everything possible to improve these conditions, but we are up against serious physical difficulties. It is not a question so much of finance. Sometimes we have the money, but we cannot spend it, because of the shortage of labour and raw materials. I recognise that it is a little out of Order to deal with these things on Third Reading, but the points I am answering were raised by hon. Members during the Debate.
    Mr. Speaker: We are on the Third Reading.
    Mr. Shinwell: No one recognises that more than myself, but the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton raised this vital point and I am responding. I recognise that in so doing I am transgressing the Rules of Order.
    I now come to another point, which arises on the substance and content of the Bill—the question of a surplus of National Service men. I frankly admit that there will be a surplus. Already a surplus has been thrown up, but there are various ways of ironing it out and dissipating it. It has been suggested that we might adopt the device of the ballot. I am sceptical about the use of this device. It might not work out quite so well as some hon. Members imagine. I believe it has been tried in the United States of America; but their characteristics, while welcome to themselves, may not be altogether welcome to people in this country. On the other hand, it may be possible in other ways to remove a part, if not the whole of the surplus, if and when it appears. One cannot say whether it will appear, for that will depend upon circumstances. It may, for example, be possible to remove a part, or the whole of that surplus. by raising the standard—not only the medical standard but the general standard. We must have in the Services men of the best quality.
    Brigadier Head: Will the right hon. Gentleman also give consideration to this

    191
    matter, that to get rid of a surplus by raising the intelligence standard, would produce poor examination results?
    Mr. Shinwell: Certainly. I am not quarrelling with the hon. and gallant Member. We recognise that there are difficulties. In raising both the medical and the intellectual standards we must be careful that we are not providing means for malingerers to escape service. The nation as a whole has to consider the physical and intellectual condition of those who would be rejected. What is to happen to them? We must be exceedingly careful.
    Now I come to the main difficulty—and hon. Members on both sides of the House have challenged the Government on this. We are asked whether we have a plan for the future. It is easy enough to prepare a plan. The Opposition have castigated the Government over and over again for producing too many plans. If we produce a plan to-night, the Opposition will say that it is no good, because they do not like plans, although they demand them from time to time. The fact is that in the fluid circumstances of the transitional stage, when there is so much change and unsettlement in the world and the three Services themselves are in a state of transition, it is extremely difficult to see the future for, at any rate, a period of more than two or three years. So we must adapt ourselves to the changing circumstances. That is the scientific method of dealing with the problem. That is what we propose to do.
    We have been asked what we propose to do with regard to voluntary enlistment. We have been asked, "Why not have voluntary enlistment?" The hon. Member opposite, the second-in-command of the Liberal brigade—[Interruption]No; I will not say fire brigade—has castigated the Government in sonorous tones and voluminous clichés on their failure to face the realities of the situation and enlist a large body of Regulars. He has been supported by the former Secretary of State for War, the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw, who knows, of course, a great deal about this matter. He knows so much about it that we are now being chided for not having enlisted Sufficient Regular recruits. I wonder what
    192
    he was doing a little more than 12 months ago, because he then had something to do with this matter. However, probably he thought he would leave it to me. In the circumstances he was very wise to leave it to someone who can tackle the problem—I will not say with greater ability, but with greater energy.
    What are the facts? First, the right hon. Gentleman was not sure of his own position; but I can acquaint him with it. It is on the record. In the Army Estimates for which he was responsible, he said that certain things could happen if the Regular Army were of the order of 250,000 men. I do not know what he had in mind—[HON. MEMBERS: "What is the rest of the statement? "]—I do not know what was meant, but he certainly appears to have had this idea of there being 250,000 men.
    Mr. Bellenger: Will my right hon. Friend be quite fair to me? Will he continue with the rest of what I said?
    Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman said that if the Regular Army were of the order of 250,000 men, there would be required a monthly intake of Regulars of 2,800 enlistments to make up for the difficulties of ordinary wastage. But the Army is not of the size of 250,000 men. It is quite obvious that the right hon. Gentleman would have liked an Army of 250,000 men but he did not give the reasons why that was impossible. As to the allegations made against my right hon. Friend the Minister for Defence, my answer is that no target has yet been stated and that fact is something which I think is forgotten. All that has been stated is the trend of recruitment and, based on the existing and past trends of recruiting, it is estimated that by the end of next year, if these trends continue, we shall have 195,000 Regulars. That is not a target; that is a trend, and right hon. and hon. Members must appreciate that there is a difference.
    Mr. Byers: That is exactly my point. The Government are doing nothing whatsoever to alter that trend, and in any case I do not know whether I can support the right hon. Gentleman's theory.
    Mr. Shinwell: So far from the hon. Member being correct, the fact is that the Government have done a great deal. It is a surprising fact, but it is a fact,

    193
    nevertheless. Let me refresh the memories of hon. Members. Since the end of the war, and under very considerable difficulties—because, among other things, we have full employment in this country today—we have actually recruited 240,000 Regulars. On the whole, that is not bad going; and in the Army we have been recruiting 32,000 a year. In the circumstances of today, that is exceptionally good. I do not know whether it is a result of efforts by my right hon. predecessor, or whether it is attributable to anything which I am doing; I am not concerned with who is responsible so long as we get a reasonably satisfactory response. But if it is believed that merely by increasing pay a bit more, and giving a bonus of £500, and a house, and a job at the end of service—things not in the nature of bribes but things so fantastic as to be incapable of ever being fulfilled—then hon. Members are thinking very wrongly. If anybody supposes that we are going to get an increase in recruiting in that way, he is very much mistaken.
    I will now come to the point raised by my right hon. Friend about the term of service in Continental countries, because that is an argument used against the Government. It was claimed that in Continental countries they have lower periods of service. My right hon. Friend said in very stern and harsh terms that from now on, he is going to watch the Government. I am beginning to watch him. That will make a good start and he must not complain. What then is the position? In the United Kingdom it is proposed to make service 18 months. In the U.S.S.R. it varies from two to five years.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Or life.
    Mr. Shinwell: In France it is 15 months for the Army and for the Air Force normally 12 months. In Italy it is 12 months for the Army and Air Force, and 28 months for the Navy. In Holland it varies from 21 to 24 months and in Belgium it is 12 months but there are also variations. These are the figures supplied to me and I presume they are taken——
    Mr. Byers: Are those figures as good as the ones the right hon. Gentleman had the last time?
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Does my right hon. Friend suggest that all young male citizens in Soviet Russia are serving a minimum of two years; and where does he get that information and those figures? I should like to assure him that it is not the case. When my right hon. Friend puts the minimum figure from two to five years, I should like him to tell us the source of the information. Is he not confusing it with the Regular Forces?
    Mr. Shinwell: I am not quite sure, but I must confess that I have less knowledge of Soviet Russia than my hon. Friend. These figures were furnished to me and I have no reason to believe that they are inaccurate. If hon. Members believe that they are inaccurate, I now set them aside, though I cannot expunge them from the record.
    My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bassetlaw asked me several questions about the conditions of the Services and about the statement which I made in the Second Reading Debate. I draw the attention of hon. Members to what I said. There is not a single word in the statement which I made in the Second Reading Debate which in any way depreciated the quality or services of officers or other ranks. I said:
    "In the Regular Army of the past man-management has been an art and an object both to the young officer, warrant officer and N.C.O. in his military training. Relationships have varied from corps to corps but they have been well-established and from the earliest days have been based on devotion and staunchness in action. These are, I believe, two fundamental problems and the answer to them must be found."
    I then proceeded to an explanation of the position of officers and said:
    "The officers are heavily encumbered by administrative and office work connected with their units."
    I have not in any way disparaged the quality of our officers.
    Mr. Bellenger: If I have done my right hon. Friend an injustice, I am only too willing to withdraw the aspersions I have made. I based my opinion on what he said before he came to the remarks he has just quoted. He said:
    "Here again we must be frank. The relationship between officers and men and between warrant officers, N.C.O.s and men is not as satisfactory as it might be."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 2126.]
    Mr. Shinwell: I am extremely sorry, but I am quite unable to withdraw that statement. What I say about that statement is precisely what I said about barrack room accommodation and married quarters. The conditions in the Army are patchy. Some are good, some not so good. The relationships between officers and men in certain units are highly satisfactory, but occasionally we run across instances where the relationships are not so harmonious as they ought to be. That is the position, and I would remind my right hon. Friend that he claimed recently that he was responsible for setting up manpower committees and ordering investigation into these problems. All I am doing is to give the result of the investigations, not the whole of them, but part of the results. I promise the House—I give this definite assurance—that we will not remain satisfied, now that we are likely to get 18 months service, until we have provided the men with the very best conditions, and promoted the happiest relationships.
    There are Member on this side of the House who, genuinely and in loyalty to
    their own principles, have intimated their decision to oppose the Government on the Third Reading. They did so on the Second Reading. We made no complaint about that. Members will vote according to their conscience, and no one can complain of that, but I do, as the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) has done, plead with them to face the realities of the situation. The Government would not have asked for this Bill, nor asked the House to agree to an extension of National Service, unless it was absolutely vital in our interests. It may well be we shall dispense with it earlier than some people imagine. That will depend on circumstances, and we make no commitments. We shall not hold to the principle of compulsion any longer than is necessary, but in the meantime it is regarded as necessary, and while it is necessary it will not inhibit us in any way from building up the Regular Forces.
    Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    The House divided: Ayes. 218; Noes, 25.

    Division No. 31.]

    AYES

    [11. 43p. m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H F. C

    Guy, W H

    Agnew, Cmdr. P G.

    Crossman, R H S.

    Hale, Leslie

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

    Hamilton, Lieut-Col R

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Crowder, Capt John E

    Hannan, W (Maryhill)

    Allen, Scholefield(Crewe)

    Daggar, G.

    Hare, Hon. J. H (Woodbridge)

    Attewell, H. C.

    Darling, Sir W. Y.

    Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V

    Awbery, S. S.

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Deer, G.

    Head, Brig. A H

    Baldwin, A. E.

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

    Balfour, A.

    De la Bère, R

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Barton, C

    Diamond, J

    Hewitson, Capt M

    Beamish, Maj, T. V H

    Digby, S W

    Hobson, C R

    Bechervaise, A. E.

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Hogg, Hon Q

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Dower, Col A V G. (Penrith)

    Holman, P

    Benson, G.

    Drewe, C.

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Hope, Lord J.

    Blyton,W R.

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

    Horabin, T. L

    Boardman, H.

    Dumpleton, C. W

    Hoy, J

    Boles, Lt. -Col. D. C. (Wells)

    Eccles, D. M.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Bossom, A. C.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

    Hughes, H. D. (W'hverh'pton, W.)

    Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

    Eden, Rt. Hon A.

    Hulbert, Wing-Cdr N. J

    Bower, N.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    Boyd-Carpenter, J A.

    Edwards, W J. (Whitechapel)

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

    Elliot, Lieut.-Col Rt. Hon. Walter

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

    Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

    Irvine, A. J.(Liverpool)

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Farthing, W. J.

    Janner, B

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Burke, W A.

    Foot, M. M.

    Jenkins, R. H.

    Challen, C.

    Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Champion, A. J

    Fraser, H. C P (Stone)

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon L W

    Channon, H.

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Keeling, E H.

    Chetwynd, G. R

    Freeman, J. (Watford)

    Keenan, W

    Cobb, F A

    Gibbins, J

    King, E. M

    Coldrick, W.

    Glanville, J E. (Consett)

    Kinley, J

    Collindridge, F.

    Grey, C. F

    Lancaster, Col. C G.

    Collins, V. J.

    Gridley, Sir A

    Langford-Holt, J

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Griffiths, D (Rother Valley)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon J (Llanelly)

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Grimston, R. V

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Crawley, A.

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Low, A. R. W.

    Parker, J.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Lucas, Major Sir J

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H

    Pearson, A.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Lyne, A. W.

    Peart, T. F.

    Thomas, John R. (Dover)

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M S

    Perrins, W.

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    McFarlane, C. S.

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

    Mokay, J. (Wallsend)

    Pickthorn, K.

    Turton, R. H.

    Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.)

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Wakefield, Sir W W

    Mckie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Price, M Philips

    Wallace, G D. (Chislehurst)

    Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

    Ward, Hon G. R.

    McLeavy, F

    Proctor, W. T.

    Weitzman, D.

    MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

    Pursey, Comdr. H

    Wells, W. T (Walsall)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Raikes, H. V.

    West, D. G.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Ranger, J.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Reid, T (Swindon)

    Wheatley, Colonel M J (Dorset, E.)

    Manningham-Buller, R. E

    Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E)

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Ropner, Col. L

    White, J B (Canterbury)

    Mellor, Sir J

    Shackleton, E. A A.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon W.

    Mitchison, G R

    Sharp, Granville

    Wigg, George

    Moody, A S.

    Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Morrison, Maj. J. G (Salisbury)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Mort, D. L.

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Murray, J. D.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Williams, R. W (Wigan)

    Neal, H (Claycross)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Nicholson, G

    Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

    Nield, B (Chester)

    Smithers, Sir W

    Young, Sir A S L. (Partick)

    Nutting, Anthony

    Snow, J. W

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Odey, G. W.

    Steele, T.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Orr-Ewing, I. L

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Wilkins.

    Palmer, A. M. F

    Symonds, A. L

    NOES

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Chamberlain, R. A

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

    Kendall, W D.

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Swingler, S.

    Gallacher, W.

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Yates, V. F

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

    Granville, E. (Eye)

    Plaits-Mills, J. F. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Mr. Byers and Mr. Bowen.

    Bill read the Third time, and passed.

    CONTROL OF ENGAGEMENT ORDER
    11.52 p.m.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I beg to move,
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Order, dated 1st December, 1948, entitled the Control of Engagement (Amendment) Order, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No. 2608), a copy of which was presented on 1st December, be annulled."
    The point raised on this order is of great importance and also of great simplicity. The effect of the order is simply to extend for a further year Statutory Instrument 2,021 of 1947, generally known as the Control of Engagements Order, which would otherwise expire at the end of this year. The order, to annul which this Motion is moved, continues that Control of Engagement Order until the end of 1949. In that connection it is of some interest to the House
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    to observe what was said on the substantive order by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), who I am glad to see in his place tonight, and who on that occasion moved to annul that order. The hon. Member for Westhoughton said:
    "We are promised, of course, that this. regulation will come to an end in December, 1948. I have no faith at all in that promise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd November, 1947; Vol. 443, c. 1343.]
    If I may respectfully do so, I should like to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his prescience and gift of prophecy.
    What is perhaps more important in this connection is what was said by the Minister of Labour in reply to the Motion which was moved by his hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton. He said:
    "Therefore, this Control of Engagement Order, S.R.O., 1947, No. 2021 was made on 18th September, came into force on 6th

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    October, and ceases to have effect on 1st January, 1949. It has been said today that now we have started it and have said it will be for a certain time only, it will continue. I have a very strong feeling, however, that Parliament is still paramount and that the House of Commons will have a right to say whether or not it shall continue."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd November, 1947; Vol. 443, c. 1359.]
    This Motion is put down—and I think that no hon. Member will disagree that it is for that reason entitled to be put down—to enable Parliament to see whether that order is or is not to be continued. Now, if this provision is continued tonight for a further year, I have not the slightest doubt that this time next year the Parliamentary Secretary if he is still on that Bench will be in his place urging its continuance for a further year. I have no doubt my prophecy will prove just as accurate as the prophecy of the hon. Member for Westhoughton just over a year ago.
    The questions raised on this order are, I think, of profound social as well as of great economic importance. It so happens that this House has spent the greater part of the day in discussing another form of compulsion—compulsory military service, and I would only say this: whereas the subject matter of discussion of the earlier part of the day concerns at most the interference with the liberty of the individual during a period of 18 months, with a limited interference for another four years, the order with which the House is now concerned affects the liberty of the greater part of the male population of this country from the age of 18 years to the age of 51 and the greater part of the female population of this country from 18 to 41. Therefore, it does have a far wider impact upon personal liberty even than the very serious impact upon personal liberty of the other matter which has been discussed. I hope those Members who have expressed themselves very forcibly on the subject of personal liberty earlier in the day will appreciate that those considerations, in another degree -and in another context, but raising in many cases the same principle, arise on this order.
    I anticipate that when the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour replies he will say that the step of continuing this order has been taken as a result of consultations with the
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    National Joint Advisory Council, and he will say, what is perfectly true, that that step was taken with the agreement—I gather not very enthusiastic agreement, but agreement—of the representatives of both employers and employed. That does not, in my submission to the House, even begin to conclude the matter, since, in the words of his own Minister, "It is Parliament that is paramount." I am suggesting that there is a very good reason why the view of that body, however much one may respect it, may to some extent be discounted in this connection. There are clearly obvious advantages to employers in this order. It imposes a control upon labour which is no doubt highly convenient to a certain number of employers. Again, from the point of view of some of the bigger unions, there is a certain stability given, and 72 unions as authorised agencies under the order have considerable powers given to them by it. It is not, therefore, from the point of view either of organised employers or of the representatives of the organised workers, but from the point of view of the individual citizen to whom this House is responsible, that I suggest the House should consider this order.
    The only conceivable justification for an order such as this is the gravest national necessity, coupled with proof that that national necessity is really efficiently served by such a provision. This provision itself marks a change in the policy of the Government. In the admirable report for 1947 presented by the Ministry of Labour the history of these labour controls is set out with great clarity and detail. Up to 1947 the policy was to remove the controls progressively, and it was only at the end of 1947 that the policy was reversed and these controls were imposed with more rigidity. The first point I want to put to the Parliamentary Secretary is that if national necessity or emergency is the test which is applied, and if the position is worse now and will be worse after another year than it was early in 1947, it seems to me—I do not want to raise ordinary party controversy on this matter—to cast a grave reflection upon the consequences of three-and-a-half years of Socialist administration.
    I submit to the House that this test of efficiency is not really made out. I myself am a believer in liberty, not merely as a vague philosophic idea wholly

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    divorced from practical realities, but as a conception of great practical value. I very much doubt if efficiency will be secured by using this order with the force of law to compel people to work where they do not wish to work. Because that, of course, is the test. Unless that is what the Government want to do this order is a waste of time. If the Government are prepared to permit labour to go where the individual worker wants to, then the order is not required. No doubt the Government at the present time use persuasion in the first place, but compulsion is there in reserve in order to compel people to work where they do not want to I doubt the efficiency of that. I believe that with this order we can see so me connection with the low level of output in certain industries, because a man compelled to work where he does not want to, and still more perhaps a woman, cannot have a spirit behind their drive for output in the same way as an in individual whose heart is in that particular trade.
    There is another aspect of it—what a deterrent this order constitutes to those who are prepared to try to go into one of the essential industries. The person who is in an unessential trade—I do not mean the four categories of people covered by what is colloquially known as the "Spiv order" which covers only a small section of the community—but I mean a person not in an essential trade who contemplates going into mining will, no doubt, be deterred by the fact that once he goes into mining he stays there for life so far as the Ministry of Labour are concerned.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards) indicated dissent.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The Parliamentary Secretary says, "No." Will he agree that if such a person goes into a mine he cannot leave it without the permission of the Ministry of Labour until he attains the age of 51?
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: Or until the order is revoked.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Quite right, or until Parliament frees him from the order.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: So that there may be no misunderstanding, I should like to point out that any non-mining volunteers
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    who go into the mining industry do so on a three months' trial, and if they cannot stick it they are allowed to leave. That has been publicised all over the country to encourage non-miners to go into the mining industry.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am fully aware of that, but I put this to the Parliamentary Secretary—in the first place, the three months are not included in the order, have no legal force at all, and are merely at the discretion of the Minister; secondly, once a three months test is passed, the person doing so is tied to the industry until he attains the age of 51 or, as the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) said, until the order is revoked. That, to my mind, is a considerable curtailment of freedom. In agriculture, I understand, even the three months' rule does not apply. A person who goes into agriculture will be tied to that industry, so far as the Ministry is concerned, until he reaches the age of 51. Does not the Parliamentary Secretary appreciate that that must constitute a serious deterrent, particularly to a young person who is prepared to try work in an essential industry, but who does not want to commit himself for life?
    We have heard a great deal of the deterrent effect of long terms of engagement in the Services. But none of them involves so long a liability as this order imposes in connection with civilian industry. I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary or his Minister, appreciates the immense deterrent effect. I have seen it in personal cases which I have come across, when people say they will not leave their present jobs if by so doing they merely hand themselves over to the control of the Ministry of Labour.
    Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that the compulsory powers behind the order do a great deal to destroy the good influence of his officers throughout the country? I yield to no man in my appreciation of the work of many of the Minister's principal officers and managers throughout the country; I know of the singular tact and capacity of the manager in my own area; but a good deal of that good influence is destroyed in the minds of the individuals concerned by the fact that these officers are not merely people whose only function is to assist, but are people with power to compel It is that

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    element of compulsion which, to my mind, vitiates much of the good work which I realise the Ministry is doing in other respects. It seems to me that even from the point of view of efficiency this order is of extremely doubtful value.
    I understand that when the Essential Work Order was taken off the cotton industry there was at first concern about what the consequences would be. But they were not at all bad. If the Minister took his courage in both hands and said that he proposed to abandon compulsion in this matter, I believe that, far from the disastrous consequences which he contemplates, after a little temporary dislocation, it would have good results. But so long as the Minister relies upon compulsion, so long will there be an incentive to go on with compulsion. There will be no incentive for the Government, by adjustment of financial policy, to see that labour is distributed voluntarily instead of compulsorily; there will be no incentive by means of the price mechanism to get labour distributed voluntarily. So long as this House goes on giving the Minister the power which he has in this order, so long will he go along the path of compulsion rather than along the more difficult path of persuasion. So long as the House goes on giving this power, I do not believe that the Government will put their house in order and free labour from these controls.
    But I must be quite frank with the House. Even if I were wrong in these submissions on the subject of efficiency, I should still oppose renewal of the order because it seems to me to take away in peace time from the citizens of this country the right freely to choose the sphere in which they will seek to earn their living, is to deprive them of a fundamental liberty. I do not think that is justified. The thing which distinguishes free men from serfs is the right to choose at what they will work. It is no answer to say that before the war economic pressure exercised a considerable sanction in this direction. Two wrongs do not make a right. If hon. Members deplore that that was the case before the war, it is no justification for the Government's seeking to exercise even more compelling pressure backed by all the forces of the law.
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    I believe most sincerely that it is wrong, socially and morally, and that it can do no good, but much harm, for this policy of compulsion to be continued against the people of our country. I do not believe that one should deprive an adult person in a mature and grown-up society such as ours of the right to choose his or her work as he or she thinks fit. We are reminded that concessions have been made, but that has been as a kindness, and not of right, and there is always behind it all this power of compulsion. It is because I believe it is profoundly wrong to take away from English people their right to choose the line of life in which they shall work that I beg to move the Motion.
    12.11 a.m.
    Sir John Mellor: I beg to second the Motion.
    This form of control should be discontinued not only because it constitutes a major interference with the personal liberty of the subject, but also because it is defeating its own object. It is defeating its own object because it is immobilising labour in many ways and especially in the industries where labour is considered least necessary. It is quite natural that persons in existing occupations should hesitate to leave because if they did so they would come into the clutches of the Ministry of Labour. My hon. Friend has referred to the special treatment which is given under these orders to the coalmining and agricultural industries—those lobster-pot arrangements by which people may enter into those industries, and move about inside them, but which they may not leave.
    The Parliamentary Secretary sought to correct my hon. Friend with regard to the right of leaving one of those industries, and mentioned that recruits to the coalmining industry were permitted to leave during the first three months of service. But, as my hon. Friend pointed out, that was a purely discretionary matter, and it was not in the order. I want to emphasise that point, because some time ago the trial period was put at six months, and later it was reduced to three. That shows how little recruits can rely on this sort of indulgence because it is not in the order. Had it been in the order, it could not have been reduced.

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    I ask for an assurance from the Minister, if this order is going to be accepted by the House. There have been powerful influences at work to bring about a "closed shop" in the coalmining industry, and, if that should come about, could we have an assurance that the effect of this order will be lifted altogether from the industry? I ask that because those engaged in the industry who are not members of a trade union, would be in an intolerable position. I also want to ask the Minister if there is any appeal under this order from the decision of the Ministry. In the case of a man directed by the Ministry or one of its local officers, there is an appeal to a tribunal, but has a man under this order any right of appeal from the refusal of the Minister, or one of his local officers, to permit him to enter the employment of his choice? Is there no right of appeal? My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) put that question to the Parliamentary Secretary in the Debate which was raised by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) in November last year. The Parliamentary Secretary was then unable to answer the question, but said that he would find out. I want to know if he has found out now?
    My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames also touched on the question of approved employment agencies through which the Minister of Labour sometimes operates. It is said in the report of the Ministry of Labour for 1947 that no fewer than 71 out of the 85 approved agencies are trade unions. I think that is giving the trade unions too big a vested interest in control. It is obviously to their advantage in increasing their membership, and I do not regard that situation as healthy at all. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will reply to that point. Finally, I consider that continuation of this form of control is objectionable both in principle and in practice and this order should be annulled.
    12.17 a.m.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: I should not have intervened in this Debate at all, had it not been for the fact that both the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken mentioned my name. I said all I wanted to say when I moved the annulment of this order giving power of direction of labour 12 months ago, but
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    there is one thing that ought to be said tonight. I cannot understand the mental acrobatics of those Conservatives who sit on the other side of the House. Of all the foul compulsions imposed by the State on a man, surely the worst is to compel him to train to kill his fellows whom he has never seen. The hon. Gentlemen on the other side have done that all today. Now they come to protest against compelling men to move from one job to another. I agree with the arguments they have put forth, but I am not going to vote with them because what they are doing now is just sheer hypocrisy.
    Let me say one other word on the issues at stake in this order. Since the order was imposed 12 months ago, we have been told by the Minister of Labour that the direction of labour has been very kindly and gently implemented. Only a very few persons have been prosecuted. I imagine, however, that the failure of the Minister of Labour to prosecute more has in a large measure been due to the opposition to the order on the Floor of the House. The Ministry knows full well that it could prosecute many more if it wished, because it has the legal power to do so.
    I should say, in passing, having helped to build this Labour Party, that if we sat on the other side of the House tonight and a Tory Minister did what my right hon. Friend is proposing, every Labour Member would go into the Division Lobby against it. I should like to say just one thing more. l have been in politics and in this House a long time, and I have long ago decided that what is wrong when we are in Opposition, cannot be right when we are in the Government. Nobody could compel my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to do anything. Nobody has been able to compel him. I have changed my job four times in my life of my own free will. Nobody has been allowed to order me about. There is only one person in the world who compels me to do anything—that is my wife. And that is true of all decent married men. The right hon. Gentleman, if he does not mind my saying so, may find himself in due course ordering men about who are as good as if not better than himself.
    12.20 a.m.
    Colonel Dower: While admiring the hon. Gentleman

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    for expressing what he no doubt feels, I cannot follow his argument when it is applied to the defence of this country. It would be out of Order to develop that, but if a number of volunteers come forward to fight for their country and others hang back, it is not fair. The hon. Member should also consider the matter in relation to the question, if it came to that, of defending his wife against attack.
    We on this side of the House feel that this particular infringement of personal liberty is the very worst one of all—the worst, the most inexcusable and the least reasonable. As the seconder of the Motion said, if in peace time a man can be told what he is to work at, and told he is to continue if he does not want to work at it, if that is not servitude and slavery, I do not understand the meaning of the word. I cannot understand the hon. Gentleman the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) saying that if the Government supporters were on our side of the House, they would vote against this Measure. I can see no reason in their supporting this direction of personal labour.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: If hon. Members were on this side of the House, they would probably do exactly what they are now complaining about.
    Colonel Dower: I can assure the hon. Member that is not so. We have a greater amount of freedom in our party than the hon. Member has in his. The question I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary is what choice of jobs is to be given to a man? Is the choice to be in the same industry? If he does not want to work in a particular industry, can he have the choice of a complete change, or will the change be within a particular industry? I most sincerely make this appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite. I know this order is only to extend a obnoxious thing, which the hon. Member for Westhoughton agrees is obnoxious, but if one goes on sinning it becomes second nature. Once we start year after year extending a particular measure, there is a temptation that it will become more and more acceptable, less and less argued against, and one's conscience will be injured less and less by the direction of labour. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to give some kind
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    of indication, if this is to be continued for another year, that it is likely to be the last year. Otherwise, we have to accept an obnoxious state of affairs in which an infringement of one of the cherished privileges of the British people may well become a permanent feature of the law of this free country.
    12.25 a.m.
    Mr. S. Silverman: I agree with my hon. Friends that the opposition to the renewal of this order from the other side of the House is pure humbug and hypocrisy. I understand that it purports to be based on the principle that men and women ought to be free to choose their own jobs according to their own will. Is there any Member of this House who would dare to assert that there has ever been at any time in this country any such right? Is it really pretended that there has ever been any time when a man has been able to choose what job he would do?
    Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Did the hon. Gentleman choose to come here?
    Mr. Silverman: No. I was chosen to come here.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Against his will?
    Mr. Silverman: No, not against my will. Does the hon. Gentleman really suggest that the miners would all voluntarily have chosen to be miners, against all other professions? Is it suggested that, when dock labour was casual, a man would choose voluntarily, from all the occupations he might have chosen, to be a casual dock labourer? Do hon. Members carry their argument a stage further? Do they suggest that a man should be free to decide whether he will work at all, or not? Is it suggested that that choice has ever been open to anybody? It really is nonsense, and they know it is nonsense.
    What they want is that there should be a reservoir of unemployed labour, driven to do all the objectionable tasks, and the existence of which employers can hold over others who want better conditions. What the Government have said is that, if it is right in times of economic crisis that the Government should exercise control over the national resources, national wealth, and national raw materials, it is also right that they should have the power to deploy the

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    national labour force to the best advantage of the community. That deployment of the labour force, as the Government have done it, so far from depriving men and women workers of any liberty they ever enjoyed, has added most extensively to their liberty.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the hon. Gentleman's argument then that this is not a temporary expedient to get over a temporary difficulty, but an admirable social development that he would desire to make permanent?
    Mr. Silverman: I would say, speaking for myself—and I have no right to speak for anybody else—that so long as the issue is in doubt whether this country can make itself economically independent and earn its own living, the Government ought to retain all powers that are necessary to make certain that our economic resources are used to the best advantage. If they were to lose courage and persistence in that endeavour, they would place in jeopardy, not merely the security of this country but the security of civilisation. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have already conceded that principle in the vote they have given tonight. They do not like military conscription any more than I do. They recognise as much as I do what a serious inroad it is upon people's liberty to take them from their normal avocations, against their will, and train them to be soldiers, and compel them to fight if war should come.
    They excuse that interference with liberty on the ground that the defence and security of the country demand it. That is how they defend it, and although I do not agree with them because I do not accept the necessity, I can understand and respect their arguments. But I cannot for the life of me see how, having accepted that argument in that unpleasant matter, 'as it is for many people—of military conscription, they can fail to apply the principle of the argument to other circumstances, if it is established that the security of the country is equally involved.
    The security of the country does not depend only on being able to defend itself in case of war against common foes. It also depends on its ability to maintain its own economic independence, earn its own living, and stand on its own feet. Unless we are able to do that, we cannot
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    defend ourselves militarily in case of war. What the hon. Member has done is to give his support to putting men into uniform, and deny his support to the necessity for providing them with the materials of war after they are there.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does not the hon. Member distinguish between 18 months and 33 years?
    Mr. Silverman: Yes, I do, but I think the hon. Gentleman misled himself about that. He said that what we were doing under this order was to compel people from the age of 18 to 51. That is not true. It is true only on the assumption, the unproved assumption, that this order will be continued and renewed every year for 33 years.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Or until there is a General Election.
    Mr. Silverman: Let us keep to the serious side of the argument. I think that the hon. Gentleman's argument is true on the assumption that this order is continued every year for 33 years, and I say that that is an assumption which he has no right to make. He may very well say—and I do not quarrel with him for a moment—"I believe it will be continued next year." He may well say, if the situation does not improve, that it may be renewed for perhaps a number of years, but I do not think he has the right, and I do not think that on consideration he would claim the right to assume, in support of his argument, that it is to be continued for 33 years. If he does make that assumption, I think he is bound to make the assumption that military conscription will be continued for the same period. If he makes both assumptions, then the distinction he has asked me to draw has been obliterated.
    Let us take another point made by the hon. Gentleman. He said, "Suppose that we do not treat this Debate tonight as being a Debate about the principle of the control of engagements, let us assume that the House conceded that principle last year." Then, he says, "Yes, but last year the Government said it was not going to be renewed beyond December, 1948." Therefore, he argues—quite reasonably, and I do not quarrel with him—that unless the Government can show that the economic situation

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    has deteriorated in the meantime, they have no right to break the pledge they then gave not to continue it beyond December, 1948. But what the hon. Gentleman fails to realise is that he himself has voted today for making the economic situation worse. That is conceded on all sides. There is a difference of opinion in the House as to how far that deterioration was necessary, but nobody denies that if we increase the period of compulsory military conscription from 12 to 18 months, we do some damage to our economic set-up. The damage is a serious one.
    What are the figures? I understand that the annual intake under the Military Service Act, after making allowance for deferments, is 160,000. I hope the hon. Member is going to follow my argument. What the hon. Member who moved this Prayer voted for half an hour ago was to keep 160,000 effective young workers out of industry for 50 per cent. longer time. That is the economic effect of what we have done by our vote today, and the hon. Gentleman, having voted to make the economic situation worse and having conceded that if the economic situation is worse then we must renew the Control of Engagement Order, now refuses to do so.
    I say, with great respect, that I think this cannot be maintained; and no one—I put it quite bluntly to him—seriously thinks it can be maintained. If he is going to say that he is against it altogether, he is entitled to say that. No doubt it is a beautiful argument, though I think it is a wrong one. But if he says that the principle is conceded, and if the vote he has given on the other matter has so worsened the economic situation, then he is bound in justice to his own argument to concede to the Government the powers they are seeking in this order. If he does not, he is open to the charge made by my hon. Friend a moment ago, and which I make myself, of being completely inconsistent in his argument.
    12.37 a.m.
    Mr. Clement Davies: I did not intend to intervene at any length in this Debate and certainly would not have done so but for the speech made by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I never think that
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    it advances a debate in this House for one hon. Member to accuse another of hypocrisy, and I do not think it has helped matters tonight. If the hon. Gentleman accuses hon. Members above the Gangway of having voted for compulsion in the military forces half an hour ago and of now demanding that compulsion should not be brought into civilian affairs, they can make the answer, tu quoque, because the hon. Gentleman also took my view with regard to the vote given about half an hour ago, and voted against compulsion for military purposes. I hope he will therefore join with me in protesting against this compulsory order, so that no charge of inconsistency can be made against him such as he is now making against hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway.
    Mr. S. Silverman: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is making a perfectly fair but plausible point, but I think it is more plausible than fair. I do not think there is any inconsistency between the vote I gave against military conscription and a vote in support of this order. My objection to military conscription is precisely that it interferes with economic development at a time when the safety of this country depends more upon that than anything else.
    Mr. Davies: Whether I am making a plausible point or not remains to be seen, but apparently it is quite a telling point. From the remarks made by the hon. Gentleman at the opening of his speech, it really sounded as if he were suggesting to the House that none of us had ever been free to choose anything or go anywhere or do anything.
    Mr. Silverman: I did not say anything like that.
    Mr. Davies: I could not understand what the hon. Gentleman was trying to say. It looked to me as if he were trying to say there was no difference between freedom and serfdom, that there never has been any freedom in this country at all, and that really we have been under a system of slavery throughout. It looks exactly as if the hon. Member is saying, "I do not know why we abolished serfdom from this country a few centuries ago or why the Americans had to fight a civil war in order to abolish slavery, or why serfdom was abolished in Russia under the Czars 60 or 70 years ago only

    213
    to be renewed under Stalin." The hon. Member instanced the miner, and said the miners did not choose their jobs. If the hon. Member knew the miners of South Wales as I do, he would know that for five and six generations they wanted to work in the mines. Let the hon. Gentleman ask some of his hon. Friends if that is so. It was the one thing they wanted to do in those days. If they were not fairly treated, that is another matter.
    I do not want to pursue those lines of argument because I think they are quite unprofitable. To me compulsion is negative to what is the fundamental right of any individual. It is wrong in principle and being wrong in principle it is, therefore, wrong in economics. The answer made by right hon. Members opposite when I first raised this matter was that the workers had been subject in the past to the compulsion of Unemployment. As the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) said, two wrongs do not make a right. My colleagues and I on these benches hate unemployment, and we did our best to relieve the suffering of the unemployed. Nothing will justify people suffering from unemployment, and if a man is compelled to leave the place where he desired to remain and is driven away by the threat of starvation it does not justify the Government saying, "Because the threat of starvation was held over you, we are holding over you the threat of a criminal code." It is wrong in principle, and we also know that compulsory labour is also uneconomic and will not assist the country in any shape or form.
    One final word about the economic situation. We all know how grim it is, but the point made by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne was that so long as the situation remained difficult and dangerous, power must be taken not only over materials, but over men. Power taken by whom? The very people who are able to do this say, "We are the Government. We know the situation, but we refuse to do something with regard to materials and we will exercise our power over free men." The Government are going to he judges in their own case, and that is a principle to which I could never be a party.
    12.42 a.m.
    Mr. David Eccles: One of the reasons why the Government want
    214
    this order is that the industries which are popular with the planners are not popular with the workers. Will they ever be? I do not believe the time will ever come when the Government will be able to do without this order under conditions where the Government plan and where they deliberately create more jobs than there are men. This year we must have a clear statement from the Parliamentary Secretary whether he thinks it is possible to do without this labour control in a planned society of the kind which we see growing up day by day in this country.
    Two years ago I made a speech in Liverpool in which I ventured to prophesy that we should get into this trouble year after year, until the Government would have to apply for an order such as this. I said that there was an alternative method to the re-deployment of labour in this country and that would be a wages policy. I went on to argue that it was quite certain that the Labour Government and trade union leaders would prefer direction of labour to a wages policy. That is clear enough, because a wages policy would take power away from them. I also said that the workers would prefer a wages policy.
    The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) said it is very difficult to man-up the dirty industries, because in conditions of full employment no one wanted to be a dock worker or go down a mine. I do not believe that to be true; but it is going to be true if we have a continuing period of full employment. It will be necessary then, I think, to give adequate incentives to man-up the dirty industries, or we shall have to have a labour control for ever. I gather from the arguments which the Government have put forward before that they prefer this. order. Are they going to make the order permanent? Will they ever listen to the claim for higher wages and different conditions in those industries?
    There is one country where they have got on without such an order as this. That country is Sweden. It is interesting to notice that the relative wages there are very different from the wages here. What is the Government's policy in regard to manning-up these industries, because this is not going to be a temporary affair? During the war we had direction of labour; but it never worked, unless the people taken out of one industry and put

    215
    into a war industry, were also given higher wages. It never worked unless it was accompanied by a material incentive. Do the Government think that this order is going to work unless they also attend to the relative level of incentives? Why not do it without the order?
    Is this order efficient? Does it help us to redistribute labour and increase production? I think the hon. Member for Kingston -upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) touched upon the crux of the matter. I do not think the order is efficient. Take agriculture, for instance. I know a fair amount about this industry, and I know that the farmers in my part of the world want the order taken off. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he will be good enough to say, when he replies, whether he considers that the farmers want the order on or off, because in my part of the world we are quite certain about it. We might lose a few men, but I do not think we should mind about that. We think that we could attract many more into the industry if the order were not operating.
    The fact is that what we want in agriculture is cottages, not controls. I believe that applies to other industries, also. The argument of the Government may be that if the order were removed, there would be a wages scramble. That might have been true a year ago, when we were in the middle of the inflation caused by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, but now that money is tighter, I do not believe that there would be a wage scramble. On the contrary, the supplies of money and goods in the country today more or less compare. Therefore, if some demanded higher wages if the order were taken off, some would have to be paid less and re-deployment would have to take place. It is not taking place.
    It is this "freezing" of a distortion which is making things more difficult. It is making employers in non-essential industries bid up for their employees. If a man is to keep his labour force together, and the employment exchange is not going to allow him to take on any new labour, he is bound to give very large extra inducements to keep up his labour force. I think that one of the effects of this order is precisely to cause bidding up wage rates in non-essential industries. Furthermore, I do not believe
    216
    that when a man is told he cannot go into the job which he wants and, instead, is sent to something which he does not like, it is not only that man's own production which falls but also the production of those with whom he comes into contact because he is bound to affect people around him.
    If only the Government would take the risk and remove this order, very little bad effect would result and we should have the redistribution of labour which we want. The real question, I think, is "Can we have a half-planned society?" I say that because this is a half-hearted sort of compulsion and I do not believe that there is a halfway house between allowing men to be attracted to the jobs they want and having the complete regimentation which there is in Russia. Here we find the worst of both worlds, and I hope that the Government will take it away.
    12.51 a.m.
    Lord John Hope: I promise the House that I will speak for only one minute. I rise to say that there is one reason why the Government must oppose the revocation of this order; and that reason is that its retention is inseparable from Socialism. The State cannot own the means of production and distribution and exchange without directing labour and, for that reason, the Government are bound to oppose the revocation of this order. That is the duty of the supporters of the Government, just as we on this side of the House will be forced by our principles to divide the House in order to seek the revocation of the order.
    12.52 a.m.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards): There can be no objection at all from anyone on this side of the House to right hon. and hon. Members opposite praying against this order, and in that sense the Minister of Labour was quite correct when he said that Parliament is paramount in spite of what the National Joint Advisory Council may do, or anybody else. So far as I recollect—and I am speaking without my brief when we last discussed this subject, the Minister did not indicate that that was the last of the order. Tonight, the order is before us and we are having a further discussion on it.
    Mr. Kendall: Will the Parliamentary Secretary, then, give an assurance that the Whips will not be on tonight and that we can have a free vote?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: That is not a matter for me. We have gone over a large amount of the ground tonight which has been traversed before, and much of the comment has, I suggest, been irrelevant. Let us really hear the facts. There is no power of direction under this order; it contains no authority to direct anybody. Under it, one cannot direct a man from one job to another, and it seems to me that much of the discussion has been quite irrelevant; that it should have been related, not to this order at all, but to the Defence Regulation 58A.
    Many remarks have been made which do not concern this order. All that this Control of Engagement Order does is to ensure that when anyone leaves a job and goes to the employment exchange, as he must, if he is within the age categories, then he must be offered the choice of four jobs. Hon. Members will remember that this was the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour in the last Debate on the matter. These jobs must be essential jobs, and they have the right to choose one of them. If they do not choose one of these jobs, under the Control of Engagement Order, the Minister of Labour has no power to compel them, but he can exercise power, conferred on him by Defence Regulations. We have, therefore, been discussing the functions of the Minister under an entirely different instrument, which is not the one before the House tonight.
    Sir J. Mellor: Surely the hon. Gentleman will agree that a man would not be permitted to take any other job with the consent of the Minister of Labour, and is not that, in effect, direction by virtue of this order?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The Minister of Labour has no power of direction under this order. I do not want to score a point by a slick argument——
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: It is too late.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The Minister of Labour, under the Control of Engagement Order, would require an unemployed person to take his employment
    218
    through the local labour exchange. The exchange manager or officer would offer the unemployed man four alternative jobs, and if the man said, "I am not going to take any of them," the Minister would have to issue a direction under Defence Regulations, and not under this order, to be able to exercise any powers in relation to that man. That is the machinery by which the direction reaches an unemployed worker.
    By the continuation of the Control or Engagement Order, the position, as far as the functions of the Minister of Labour are concerned, remains the same as it was 12 months ago. It will apply to the same categories of persons as it did 12 months ago. The exceptions are those which were provided for when we discussed the matter 12 months ago.
    Now I come to the approved employment agencies. I was questioned about these by a number of hon. Gentlemen. There are a number of trade unions and other agencies including the British Legion, the National Association for the Employment of Regular Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen and other similar associations. It was suggested by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sutton Cold-field (Sir J. Mellor) that this was a very unhealthy sign. If it is unhealthy, it is something which has been existing for very many years. The banking industry had its own agencies, the insurance industry had its own agency and the printing industry has for 20 years had its own agency.
    Mr. McCorquodale: But without any compulsion behind it.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: It is quite true they have no compulsion; but the right hon. Gentleman should have told the House the whole truth, and that his association has agreed with the printing trade union that they will not employ anyone else unless he is a member of the union. Any printer unemployed cannot find employment with the right hon. Gentleman's association unless that printer becomes a member of the trade union.
    Mr. McCorquodale: I really cannot allow that. We are not a closed shop in the printing trade. It was denied in this House the other day, and the Minister of Labour had to admit it. We are

    219
    not a closed shop. There is a large measure of organisation, but we are by no means a closed shop.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: We will leave the printing industry to its very comfortable and good industrial relations, but it has had one of those trade union employment agencies for 20 years.
    Mr. Champion: For 35 to 40 years.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am prepared to accept the longer period, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not say that is an unhealthy sign in the printing industry. We do have a number of small craft unions, diamond cutters, and people like that. They are approved employment agencies, and I do not regard it as an unhealthy sign. It is an extremely small minority, and the significant thing—and I am speaking from memory—is that I do not think one of those trade unions are directly represented on the National Joint Advisory Council which considered this matter before it was brought to the House.
    Let me deal with one or two of the other points. Since this order was considered 12 months ago, there has been one prosecution under the order. That was a prosecution of an employer about which no doubt more will be heard in this House, because I understand there is a question about it on the Order Paper.
    Colonel Dower: What does that prove?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not want to go into it any further. That is the extent of compulsion—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—that has been applied to an employer who attempted to defy the Control of Engagement Order. I am not going to say, because it would be foolish, that lots of other employers would not have liked to defy the order if there had not been that element of compulsion or the right to prosecute in the background.
    The National Joint Advisory Council, on which the agricultural industry is represented, unanimously recommended the acceptance of the continuation of this order. The Women's Consultative Committee, representative of all sides of this House, unanimously recommended the acceptance of the continuation of this
    220
    order. Even the representative of the Liberal Party on the Women's Consultative Committee recommended the continuation of this order.
    Let me take the points raised by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). He has admitted that this order is of great economic and social importance, and I agree with him. I agree that we ought not lightly to take away the liberty of the subject, especially in matters of this sort. Let me take the next point of the hon. Member for Kingston. He suggested that this order affected the greater part of the male and female population. There he is in error. It only affects the workers when they become unemployed. So long as they are in employment nothing can be done about it.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with that. Does he not appreciate that it affects everybody in this sense, that it must be a factor in their minds when they are deciding whether to leave one job and go to another?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The vast majority of men who go to work in the pits stay in the pits. The vast majority who go to work in agriculture stay in agriculture. This order deals very largely with the floating population, the people who are changing their jobs, and it is untrue to say that it affects the great majority of the population. But I do not want to quibble about that. The point I want to make is that it does not affect any person until that person becomes unemployed. It does not prevent anyone from changing his job. It does not prevent anyone from leaving a particular pit, or a particular farm. Take the textile industries: it does not prevent a worker going from one mill to another, or from one essential job to another. There is no restriction in that sense. The restriction is to prevent people from going into the less essential jobs. That is the degree of the restriction—[Interruption.] True, as defined by the Government. I accept that right away.
    From the other side of the House the Government have been pressed to increase exports of dollar-earning goods. Time and time again we have been criticised for not building up our exports quickly enough. This is the answer.

    221
    This Control of Engagement Order does enable us to influence people to go into the right jobs.
    Mr. Douglas Marshall: Force.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: The hon. Gentleman says "force." If we do not have this order, which is the instrument whereby the Ministry of Labour can exercise persuasion, we may be compelled to rely directly on force. I think this ought to be faced. The vast majority of workers are accepting advice, quite genuinely, without any question of force or penalty, and are slowly and surely going into the industries where they can best help this country.
    I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite are not going to say that the workers are bereft of patriotism. They are not. It is only a very small minority with whom there is trouble. The average worker will not know which is the most essential industry into which he should go. There is a hydro-electric scheme in North Wales. Is it suggested that the unemployed in South Wales will know about it, unless the Ministry of Labour officials inform them that there is an important job being done for Wales, and say, "Will you go and work there?". The same thing applies to electricity generating stations, and the great steel mills being built in South Wales now. In that sense, under this order the Minister of Labour is able to guide people who are willing to accept guidance. The vast majority of workers in this country are prepared to accept guidance as to the place in which they can make the biggest contribution to the national rehabilitation. I think the right hon. Gentleman will accept that, by and large, the workers of this country are prepared to be guided. If the Prayer succeeds tonight, the very instrument which enables us to guide them would be taken away from us.
    Now I come to the question of the efficiency of this order. If it is efficient and produces results, I take it that some hon. Members opposite would be prepared to accept it. [Interruption.] I know that some hon. Gentlemen have said they would not do so in any circumstances, but I was wondering whether, if it is efficient, the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) would support it. Here we are with this great dollar gap. We have to face the economic rehabilitation
    222
    which has to be carried out. We have to face this adverse trade balance which has to be covered. If this Control of Engagement Order enables us to bridge that gap and give our people more clothes and food, are hon. Gentlemen opposite prepared to vote for it? That is the practical test.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give way? He asked a question——
    Mr. Ness Edwards: It was a rhetorical question. I asked hon. Gentlemen opposite who have spoken—and it was with their statements that I was dealing—whether, if evidence shows that this order does enable us to solve the economic problems of this country, they are prepared to support it? I take it that none of the hon. Members opposite——
    Mr. Orr-Ewing Mr. Orr-Ewing rose——
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Let me finish this sentence and I will give way. I gather that some hon. Gentlemen opposite would be prepared to support it, if it were proved that it did enable us to get the job done more efficiently.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I would point out that his argument is completely fallacious so long as he maintains this order in being. How can he test the situation so long as he maintains this order in being under these conditions?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am afraid that does not answer the question. On the other hand, there was a period when this order was not in existence.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Not under these conditions.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: There was a period since the end of the war when this order was not in existence. We had declining manpower in cotton and wool, and declining manpower in agriculture, and hon. Members opposite were continually chivying my right hon. Friend and myself to get more labour into agriculture. We were being driven to recruit foreign labour into agriculture under pressure from hon. Members opposite. The same thing is true with regard to the mining industry. I say that the existence of this Control of Engagement Order is enabling us to get a better balance in our labour force and to man undermanned industries, In agriculture we have supplied the need

    223
    to such an extent that now we have some unemployment. [Interruption.] We have seasonal unemployment in agriculture already manifesting itself. That is the position, and I hope hon. Members will at least give me credit for giving the facts to the House.
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: Will the Parliamentary Secretary also agree that he is manning up the least essential industries even faster than the essential industries?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: That is an amazing question. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at the figures, he will find that the first preference jobs in the engineering industry have been manned up at a rate 400 per cent. greater than the non-essential.
    Colonel Hutchison: I have the figures here. In transport and shipping, 1,438,000 rises in mid-1948 to 1,472,000; that is higher than the target figure. It is the same for building, civil engineering, local government and the civil service; these are all higher instead of lower, as was expected in the Economic Survey.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Why does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman be fair with the House? I thought he was going to challenge the statement that first preference jobs in the engineering industry had been filled at a rate 400 per cent. greater than the unessential part of engineering. That is the statement I made and no attempt has been made to contradict it.
    Let me take one or two other figures. I take the textile industry. Cotton was going down very fast. We have reversed the order, and this year it has climbed back. This was the first increase since 1925, when the cotton industry was having such a bad effect on the people employed in it. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames made a very good point when he said the industries popular with the planners were unpopular with the workers. I think he should have carried that argument a little further and explained why. The basic industries of this country have been unpopular with the workers, and he knows why. They have been underpaid; and not only that, the general physical conditions have been really shocking.
    The Government's policy has been quite clear. It has been to increase the
    224
    wage level in the undermanned industries and try to improve the working conditions in very many of those industries which have been undermanned. But that cannot be done in five minutes. We cannot change the Lancashire cotton mills in five minutes. Even where we are getting much co-operation from employers, with the limitations of materials and labour, and all the new machinery, labour-saving devices, and other plans, it will take years before we put the Lancashire cotton industry in a position to attract all the labour necessary to enable the cotton mills to contribute as they could towards stopping our dollar gap.
    The same story is true of wool and equally true, I must admit, of agriculture. Generations of neglect of the countryside; no houses, or not as many as there should be, and many of them not much better than pigsties—that is the reason we cannot get labour into agriculture and why it is necessary that we should maintain this Control of Engagement Order in this industry.
    I must deal with one or two other points before I sit down. In regard to the right of appeal, the unemployed person—and this applies only to the unemployed person—goes to an exchange and no action can be taken against him unless a direction is issued under the Defence Regulations. Then he gets the right of appeal against the direction. In that sense he has a right of appeal against any action taken against him by the Minister.
    I have dealt with all the questions that were addressed to me including the matter of the employment agencies. So far as I know, no one has said that his point had not been dealt with. Finally, I should like to make this last point. If the Motion is carried tonight, it will take from the Ministry of Labour an instrument that has been successful, that has caused no hardship upon any workers, under which there has only been one prosecution, under which the manpower of the nation has been built up in the main industries and under which we have had a substantially improved economic position in this country. Because of those things I ask the House to reject the Motion.
    1.21 a.m.
    Mr. McCorquodale: The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour has been most gracious in en-deavouring

    225
    to answer the points put to him by my hon. Friends. I sympathise with him in having such a difficult task to justify this order. I must confess that I was not impressed at the outset by his argument as to the scope of this instrument. This instrument is only part of the whole control of labour which this Government are at present operating though it is an essential part. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) and other hon. Friends have put the arguments and I do not propose to repeat them at this late hour, except to say this. A year ago almost to the day I was fighting a by-election. I made the control of labour and the direction of labour one of the principal planks in my election programme. That was one of the reasons why I was privileged to be able to increase my majority by nearly 10,000 votes. I recommend other hon. Members who think that in this matter they have the country with them to try the same thing, and they will get a rude awakening.
    I do not believe that this order is necessary and I am perfectly sure that it is undesirable. The Minister spoke about the persuasion in the labour exchanges. That is what we want to see. We want to see the labour exchanges places where people can go to be offered jobs, not where they go to be ordered out to jobs. I do not believe that anything approaching persuasion can be used when there is a threat of compulsion in the background. The Parliamentary Secretary
    spoke about manning agriculture to such an extent that there is now some seasonal unemployment. If that be the case, surely it is high time that the ring fence round agriculture was removed, so that if they wish to do so people can get out. I cannot see any argument for keeping up this ring fence if the situation is as satisfactory as the hon. Gentleman describes. Regarding the cotton industry, about which I know a little, I do not believe that this order has contributed to the improvement in that industry.
    I do not wish to proceed to argue this case at this late hour. I will content myself by saying that about 20 months ago the Lord President of the Council, speaking at an important meeting—I think it was the T.U.C., or Labour Party conference—said, when discussing this question:
    "They are an infringement of the liberties of the people which we are not prepared to accept."
    We on this side of the House believe he was right, and we are not prepared to accept this gross infringement of the liberties of the people. Hence we are prepared, tonight, to go into the Lobby to support this Prayer.
    Question put,
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Order, dated 1st December, 1948, entitled the Control of Engagement (Amendment) Order, 1948 (S.I., 1948, No. 2608), a copy of which was presented on 1st December, be annulled."
    The House divided: Ayes, 74 Noes, 117.

    Division No. 32.]

    AYES

    [1. 26a. m.

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

    Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

    Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Nicholson, C.

    Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

    Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

    Nield, B. (Chester)

    Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

    Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

    Nutting, Anthony

    Bossom, A. C.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Odey, G. W.

    Bowen, R.

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col. W.

    Hope, Lord J.

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    Pickthorn, K.

    Byers, Frank

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig O

    Challen, C

    Keeling, E. H.

    Raikes, H. V.

    Channon, H.

    Kendall, W. D.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Langford-Holt, J.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Thomas, J P L. (Hereford)

    Crowder, Capt. John E.

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

    Darting, Sir W. Y.

    Low, A. R. W.

    Turton, R. H.

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

    Lucas, Major Sir J.

    Ward, Hon. G. R.

    De la Bère, R.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

    Digby, S. W.

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    McFarlana, C. S.

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Drayson, G B.

    Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

    Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

    Drewe, C.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Eccles, D. M.

    Manningham-Buller, R. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter and

    Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

    Marshall, D (Bodmin)

    Sir John Mellor.

    NOES

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Grey, C. F.

    Pearson, A.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Guy, W. H.

    Peart, T. F

    Attewell, H. C.

    Hale, Leslie

    Perrins, W.

    Barton, C.

    Hamilton, Lieut. -Col. R.

    Popplewell, E.

    Bechervaise, A. E

    Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Randall, H. E.

    Boardman, H.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

    Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W.

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Royle, C

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge)

    Hobson, C. R.

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Holman, P.

    Sharp, Granville

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

    Brown, T. J. (Ince)

    Hoy, J.

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Burke, W. A.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Chamberlain, R. A

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Silverman, S. S (Nelson)

    Champion, A. J.

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Skeffington, A. M

    Cobb, F. A.

    Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool)

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    Collindridge, F.

    Janner, B.

    Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

    Collins, V. J.

    Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.)

    Snow, J. W.

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Keenan, W.

    Swingler, S.

    Crawley, A.

    Kinley, J.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Symonds, A. L

    Daggar, G.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Taylor, R, J. (Morpeth)

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Longden, F.

    Weitzman, D.

    Deer, G.

    Lyne, A. W.

    West, D. G.

    Diamond, J.

    Mackay, R. W G. (Hull, N. W.)

    Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)

    Dodds, N. N.

    McLeavy, F

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    MacPherson, M. (Stirling)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Wigg, George

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Middleton, Mrs. L.

    Wilkins, W A.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

    Monslow, W.

    Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

    Fairhurst, F

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    Farthing, W. J.

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Fernyhough, E.

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Orbach, M.

    Freeman, J. (Watford)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Gibbins, J

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Mr. Simmons and Mr George Wallace

    DUMPED RADIO EQUIPMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]
    1.34 a.m.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: I must apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the House for keeping hon. Members so late, but the matter which I have to raise is one of considerable concern and is related to very grievous allegations I made against the Ministry of Supply a few weeks ago. The allegations were about the dumping of radio equipment in what is called the Wonder Pit at Cheadle, in Staffordshire, and I propose now to substantiate those charges.
    This matter was first raised by me nearly three years ago. I was told by the then Minister of Supply, when I put a Question asking whether this radio equipment which had been dumped had had withdrawn from it parts and valves, that the sets were damaged, unserviceable, not worth repairing, and unsuitable for civilian use. I was also told that useful parts, such as valves, had been
    228
    removed, and that dumping in an abandoned mine shaft was chosen as an economical method of destroying small articles. This statement was reiterated on 15th November, 1948, when the Minister of Supply went further and said that most careful inquiries had been made to see whether the apparatus was saleable or usable.
    One naturally expects that the premise of Questions in this House, and the way business is conducted, is that the answers given to Questions should be true. I should like to examine this matter and to say that two of my constituents, Mr. George Eyre and Mr. Thomas Weston, did not have my simple faith in the accuracy of Ministerial replies. They went so far as to dig up the Wonder Pit, where they discovered a large quantity of supplies. What they discovered was that 10,000 sets had been dumped and that also, far from being unusable, many had guarantee of serviceability labels. A large number had arrived in cartons and they were still in them on the site. In 90 per cent. of the sets, no valves whatsoever had been removed; some

    229
    had been smashed, but it is a tribute to British workmanship that, although sets had been jettisoned with great force, 60 per cent. of them were in workable condition. Far from being of no value, there were 500 cathode ray tubes. I have brought a considerable amount of this equipment to show to hon. Members, and if it is desirable to do so, I will exhibit it in the Tea Room. I also have a question to ask concerning some rubber goods, with which I will deal in a moment.
    It was only on Friday last that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply was complaining that the production of television sets was being held up because of a shortage of cathode ray tubes. It was only the other day that the Minister of Health said that the thing which was holding up certain X-ray services in hospitals was cathode ray tubes. Here are 500 of them, worth between £10 and £15 each. The sets contained certain other items—two diode tubes, three E.F. 50 valves, the most useful of all radio receiving valves, and which are applicable especially to civilian sets.
    In addition to these 10,000 sets, there was one 12 to 240-volt reversible rotary convertor. These items, apart from a great miscellaneous collection of transformers and condensers, are of considerable value. Even if we assume that the prices which are quoted today are the best, diode tubes are from 30s. to £2 each, and valves are from 18s. to 20s. each. Mr. George Eyre has found them of sufficient value to himself to be able to construct a small bedside set for six guineas by using this equipment. What is certainly true is that the rotary convertor is a piece of equipment of considerable value, selling on the market today at £2.
    I should like to go further and investigate the riches of the Wonder Pit. Even assuming that all these valves had been broken, there still remain parts of considerable value. It is all very well for the Government to spend a great deal of money on the prevention of waste, and to appeal to people, by millions of posters, to save bones, scrap metal, and waste paper; but they have themselves wasted a considerable amount of precious raw material. These 10,000 sets quite apart from the valves, contain 2½ lb. of brass, ½ lb. of copper and ½lb. of zinc. Even
    230
    without the valves, the basic raw materials in these sets are worth 23s. 6d. in each set. Even more remarkable is the fact that, far from these sets having been properly salvaged, they still contain—perhaps the Minister knows it—a small quantity of platinum. As perhaps the hon. Gentleman knows, platinum is extremely important in the hot-spots in radio, and to quote Mr. Hilaire Belloc:
    "I shoot the hippopotamus With bullets made of platinum.
    Because if I use leaden ones, His hide is sure to flatten 'em."
    This is a very serious matter. Eight little blobs of metal worth £23 an ounce! To each 25 sets there is approximately l oz. of platinum. That is considerable. It means that about £1 worth of platinum in each set has been buried in the mine. Certainly the National Coal Board, and even some studious gentry in South Africa, might take a lesson from the Minister of Supply in salting mines.
    I asked the Minister for an inquiry, which was refused. I carried out a further investigation myself. I can produce these sets from the Wonder Pit, and I seriously inform the House that this whole process of dumping is much more extensive than just this one instance. Throughout the country, I am informed, there are many other mines which have been used as dumping sites by the Ministry of Supply. For instance, in a nearby pit, New Hayden, 1,800 tons of rubber was dumped and, while some of the tyres were useless, several thousands were perfectly good. At the time the dumping took place, bicycle tyres were fetching between £4 and £5 apiece. Brand new tyres, wilfully slashed, were being dumped by vehicles having tyres which could hardly keep them on the road. Even at this moment there is a very firm rumour going round—and I believe that it is very near the truth—that the Board of Trade are contemplating the dumping of another 8,000 tons of rubber in a disused pit in Staffordshire. I should very much like to have an answer on that point.
    The accusation against the Government is three-fold. It flows from the fact that the system of dumping war stores was bad. I talked to one gentleman responsible for dumps, and he said that on one occasion he had 30 men waiting to dump goods into a pit. It was bakelite scrap.

    231
    He rang up the factory. The factory said "How are you doing?" He said "I am waiting here with 30 men." The factory said "You will have to wait a bit longer, the stuff is not made yet."
    The system was ill worked by the Government for three reasons. First, there was no serious operation of salvage carried out by the Government. In 1945 and 1946 it would have been perfectly possible to have seen that no valuable materials were thrown away. We have this single example of Cheadle, of which I know the facts, but there are thousands more throughout the country. It is no good the Minister saying that it was impossible to do anything else, for we now know that after the goods had been taken 200 miles from London and left in the pit for two years, private enterprisers have got the stuff out and disposed of it at a profit. If that had been done by the Government three years ago, the saving to the country would have been very great indeed—£30,000 in this pit alone. The cathode ray tubes are worth about £10,000, the platinum about £8,000 to £10,000, and the valves and so forth probably another £10,000. That is my first accusation—there was no proper salvage.
    My second is that war contracts were sloppily terminated. It would have been far better to have spent money in saving the raw materials. It would have been far better to have paid the cost-plus, and if need be have sent the men on holiday, than waste precious raw materials.
    Thirdly, I have been told on two occasions in this House—I do not know what is the Parliamentary expression—little less than a terminological inexactitude about what is going on in Cheadle. At that time I demanded an inquiry by the Government. Today I reiterate that demand. Cheadle is but a microcosm of what may have happened. There is still a chance of recovering these goods if the Government are bold enough to let private enterprise recover what they have squandered.
    1.48 a.m.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. John Freeman): In view of the comparatively serious charges and of the extravagant language the hon. Member has used against my Department, I think that the
    232
    best thing I can do is to go over the story as I have been able to find it out, and I may say that I have been deeper into the Wonder pit at Cheadle during the past few weeks than Mr. Weston or anybody else.
    The disposals policy which this Government have followed was worked out by the Coalition Government in war time and published in a White Paper at the end of 1944. It was agreed by all parties. The substance of it was that where there were surpluses which were disposable in the civilian market they should be so disposed of through normal trade channels, and that consultations should take place industry by industry to work out what was the proper method of disposal. Accordingly, panels were set up in the different industries to work out detailed methods.
    Radio equipment was regarded by everyone from the very beginning as presenting one of the most difficult problems of all for two reasons: (1) it had been produced in astronomical quantities in war time, and there was every prospect that this high production figure would continue in peace time, and, (2) a large percentage of this production had been for highly specialised purposes. It was felt by the trade, by my Department and by the Board of Trade both in war time and after the war, that radio equipment was the one that was going to present one of the greatest disposal difficulties of all.
    The panel was assembled to discuss the problem of how to get rid of this surplus and the trade was represented by the Radio Industry Council, which the hon. Member will probably agree was best fitted to represent the radio industry. That panel made no progress in its operations, and months after it had been assembled the Government had not succeeded in finding an adequate way of getting these disposals started, mainly for the simple reason that the trade strongly agreed with our view that it was going to be a very difficult matter to release these vast quantities on to the market without wrecking the radio industry. They were unable to suggest methods of disposal and a situation arose after a period where my Department felt that it was intolerable to go on procrastinating any longer. We had therefore to take a

    233
    decision, whether the trade were prepared to be helpful over it or not. I would emphasise that I am not making a general attack on the radio industry over this at all. I think that on this particular occasion the Radio Industry Council was not very helpful, but the reason for that was precisely that they did agree with the view, subsequently expressed by my own experts and technicians, that the problem was very difficult and did not lend itself to a very favourable solution.
    The first step, when it was decided that disposal was to go ahead, whether the industry was prepared to co-operate or not, was to try and estimate which items of this vast quantity of equipment had a civilian use and which, broadly speaking, had not. This had to be done by our own technical advisers, simply because the trade itself was not prepared to put forward adequate proposals. It would, I think, be helpful if I read one paragraph of a letter which my Department felt it necessary to write to the Radio Industry Council in October, 1945. This letter summarises a meeting which took place with the Council and my officials the previous days. It begins by saying that no progress had been made and regretting that the trade had been unable to put forward proposals which would facilitate the disposal of the surpluses. It goes on to state that the Department must now take upon itself the responsibility of making up its mind:
    "It is, for example, necessary to record that lists of current surpluses referred to the Council at the end of June have not, despite repeated pressure, yet been returned to the Department with information as to the quantities which the Council's constituent firms may desire to purchase. Such delay (3½ months to date) places the Department in a most difficult position, particularly as offer to manufacturers is only the first stage of enquiry. Furthermore, the Council has been at pains to represent the limitations of the market, and that these should lead to a policy either of wholesale storage against uncertain future demands or of wholesale destruction."
    That was the view that the Radio Industry Council took in 1945. We had therefore to decide how to classify and get rid of these surpluses on our own responsibility. Those which we considered had a civilian use we disposed of as best we could by competitive tender. Those which we considered had not a civilian use we had either to break down for
    234
    their component parts or dump. Moreover the situation was considerably complicated at that time by the tremendous pressure which was being put on the Government by Members of both sides of this House to clear industrial premises which were being used for Service purposes as quickly as possible.
    The equipment which the hon. Member referred to comes, as I am informed, from the R.A.F. Repairable Equipment Depot at Neasden, just outside London, which was a property at that time urgently required by its owners for industrial purposes. All equipment in that depot was purely Service equipment and I am advised that it was all unserviceable. I have listened carefully to what the hon. Member said and I think that the divergence between us on the facts is not so great as it might appear. Everything which went into the depot was unserviceable in that it was sent there by R.A.F. technical officers in war time, or immediately after the end of the war, as being unserviceable. Hon. Members know that in war time the word "unserviceable" covers a multitude of sins. Some of this equipment was damaged; some of it may just have suffered some deterioration in storage. I will not argue about that, but all of it was declared to us as being unserviceable.
    Mr. H. Fraser: A great many were marked "serviceable."
    Mr. Freeman: If they were, it is no good blaming my Department for it. The Ministry of Supply have to take surpluses as declared. All these were declared by the R.A.F. as "unserviceable" and I am bound to say that in all that took place——
    Sir William Darling: Unserviceable, not unsaleable.
    Mr. Freeman: That is another matter. It may indeed be that the degree of unserviceability varied.
    I must emphasise at this point in regard to the figures the hon. Member has bandied about that, to the best of my knowledge, there were about 300 tons of this equipment dumped in the Wonder-pit though it is of course a little difficult to investigate at this date. The total figure of radio surpluses which we have disposed of by sale and other methods, is something of the order of 50,000 tons.

    235
    Whatever the exact percentage may be, this dump represents substantially less than one per cent. The decision was taken to dump this equipment, because the stuff was, prima facie, unsaleable. Whether it is unsaleable today, I do not know, but the fact remains that the radio industry would not handle it at that time, and my technical advisers agreed that it was unsaleable. What has happened afterwards, I will come to in a moment.
    Even if we had been able to sell it, the sale would have helped to knock the bottom out of the market for more extensive sales of higher grade equipment which we had and for which we were legitimately trying to obtain a market. We had in fact £600 million worth for sale. In addition, it would have been far too slow and costly to break down the equipment in question for component parts, and that is another reason why dumping was decided upon. I have no evidence that the Radio Industry Council were specifically consulted about this particular piece of dumping. I am being perfectly frank with the hon. Member; but there is not the slightest doubt, that if they had been consulted they would have advised dumping, having strongly pressed us, as they did in general either to dump radio equipment or to hold it in general indefinitely in storage. As events have turned out, the market for radio equipment was more widespread and lasted longer than anybody, either the trade or my advisers, expected at the time.
    Although prices have fallen somewhat recently, and the process of disposals has taken rather longer than was expected, I think it is likely that if this equipment had been held indefinitely in storage and gradually allowed to trickle into the market, it would have realised at any rate something. The hon. Member spoke about rotary convertors; he is quite wrong about that. There are various kinds of rotary convertors. I am not a technician, and I speak from advice, but I know that the kind he has mentioned are on sale at about 10s. and are a drug on the market. However, I will not quarrel with him and I will admit that possibly if the equipments which were dumped had instead been held all this time they might have fetched something.
    236
    For that reason, since it became apparent that the market was greater than had been thought, the policy of dumping was completely suspended and nothing is dumped now unless there is some special reason why it should be and unless the Minister has personally authorised dumping. For all practical purposes that means that nothing is dumped nowadays.
    Nevertheless, the decision which was taken at that time, the background of which I have now gone into very fully, was entirely reasonable at that time, and no responsible person dissented from it. It would have been vastly more damaging, so far as one can apply words of that kind to what after all were small transactions, if at a time when the space was needed more urgently for other purposes we had held great quantities of these stores permanently on the racks and in the bins in the hope that someone would buy them. I am advised that it would have been uneconomical to break them down. The hon. Member for Stone quoted many figures, but figures of that kind are entirely arbitrary. The circumstances of the time and other issues have to be taken into consideration. At that time the steps taken seemed perfectly reasonable. In fact the Ministry of Supply in dealing with this problem of surplus was doing nothing more than what would have been done by any large commercial trading organisation. The Ministry handled a vast quantity of goods and made a vast profit for the community. If it does that job it has to take legitimate risks. If the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) and his friends were handling the sums of money which the Ministry of Supply were handling and did not take certain risks, I would be surprised.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: If I had had my way the hon. Gentleman would not have been in a position to compete with private enterprise. I asked questions on this matter some years ago, and the matter tonight can be summed up in Kipling's words:
    "A servant when he reigneth, Throws the blame on someone else."
    Mr. Freeman: At any rate I plead guilty to the indiscretion of inflicting the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) on the House at this time of night.
    Sir W. Smithers: And the hon. Gentleman got it in the neck.
    Mr. Freeman: Our action was a perfectly legitimate business risk. If hon. Members opposite or anyone else had had to deal with the same problem they would not have taken any different decision.
    I want to make one quotation. There was a Debate in November, 1945, on what was one of the guiding considerations behind the disposal policy, namely, the urgent need for release of storage space. During that Debate the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) made these remarks:
    238
    "It may well be worth facing some monetary loss to the Treasury owing to deterioration of certain stores which have been disposed of when you put that against the greater loss to the nation by depriving trade, particularly export trade, of the use of floor space."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November, 1945; Vol. 415, c. 957–8.]
    The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock on Monday evening and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Four Minutes past Two o'Clock.

GERMANY
  Ruhr Industry (Control)
  Ruhr Industry (Control)
  Currency Reform
  Currency Reform
  Berlin Elections
  Berlin Elections
  CYPRUS (JEWISH DETAINEES)
  CYPRUS (JEWISH DETAINEES)
  RAILWAY EQUIPMENT, AUSTRIA (SOVIET REMOVAL)
  RAILWAY EQUIPMENT, AUSTRIA (SOVIET REMOVAL)
  PALESTINE (ISRAELI GOVERNMENT)
  PALESTINE (ISRAELI GOVERNMENT)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  New Shops
  New Shops
  Allocations
  Allocations
  Body-weight Survey
  Body-weight Survey
  Sugar Refining
  Sugar Refining
  Sausage Casings
  Sausage Casings
  Imported Feedingstuffs
  Imported Feedingstuffs
  Rationed Goods (Distribution)
  Rationed Goods (Distribution)
  Calories Value
  Calories Value
  Bacon
  Bacon
  Meat (Illegal Slaughter and Sale)
  Meat (Illegal Slaughter and Sale)
  Nutritional Standard
  Nutritional Standard
  Newly-Born Calves Slaughter)
  Newly-Born Calves Slaughter)
  TRIBUNAL OF INQUIRY
  TRIBUNAL OF INQUIRY
AGRICULTURE
  Sugar Beet Industry
  Sugar Beet Industry
  Grass-Drying Centres
  Grass-Drying Centres
  Marginal Land Farmers
  Marginal Land Farmers
  FORESTRY (SUBSIDIARY INDUSTRIES)
  FORESTRY (SUBSIDIARY INDUSTRIES)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Service Stores (Inspection)
  Service Stores (Inspection)
  Factory, Calgarth (Demolition)
  Factory, Calgarth (Demolition)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Office Building, Newcastle
  Office Building, Newcastle
  Factories, Greater London
  Factories, Greater London
  New Shop Fronts, Bristol
  New Shop Fronts, Bristol
  Chiswick House (Repairs)
  Chiswick House (Repairs)
  Westminster Hall (Damage)
  Westminster Hall (Damage)
BRITISH ARMY
  Dunham Park, Altrincham
  Dunham Park, Altrincham
  Polish Resettlement Corps
  Polish Resettlement Corps
NATIONAL FINANCE
  United States Aid
  United States Aid
  Medical Schools (Grants)
  Medical Schools (Grants)
  Cost of Living
  Cost of Living
  CIVIL SERVANTS (TRAVEL RISKS)
  CIVIL SERVANTS (TRAVEL RISKS)
  U.N.E.S.C.O. (BUDGET)
  U.N.E.S.C.O. (BUDGET)
  POST OFFICE (BRIXWORTH AND KETTERING)
  POST OFFICE (BRIXWORTH AND KETTERING)
  MILITARY VEHICLES (SUPPRESSORS)
  MILITARY VEHICLES (SUPPRESSORS)
  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (COUNCIL, SURREY)
  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (COUNCIL, SURREY)
  POLISH HOSPITAL, WHITCHURCH
  POLISH HOSPITAL, WHITCHURCH
  GREATER LONDON (ABERCROMBIE PLAN)
  GREATER LONDON (ABERCROMBIE PLAN)
  ELECTORAL REGISTER
  ELECTORAL REGISTER
  BULK PURCHASING (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS)
  BULK PURCHASING (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS)
  LOCAL COUNCILLORS, SCOTLAND
  LOCAL COUNCILLORS, SCOTLAND
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  COLONIAL NAVAL DEFENCE BILL. [H.L.]
  4.5 p.m.
  THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (The EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce the Colonial Naval Defence Bill, a Bill to make further provision for the naval defence of overseas territories. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
  On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF BILSTON ORDER)
  LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
  Moved, That the Order made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Act to the said area, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  CONSOLIDATION BILLS
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
  Moved, That a Committee of seven Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons as a Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills and Statute Law Revision Bills in the present Session:
  That the Lords following be named of the Committee:

  M. Reading,

  E. Selkirk,

  L. Rushcliffe,

  L. Schuster,

  L. Shepherd,

  L. Kershaw,

  L. Clydesmuir;

  That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a Chairman.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to: Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to request them to appoint seven Members of that House to be joined with the said Committee.

  JUDGES PENSIONS (INDIA AND BURMA) BILL
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, this is a Bill which has come from another place, I may say with the approval of all Parties. It was there rapidly passed through all its stages, as is evidenced by the date on which we received it. The provision of compensation to Judges of the High Court in India, Pakistan and Burma, was made by a vote which was taken in the House some time ago and therefore does not form any part of the Bill now before your Lordships. This Bill enables proportionate pensions to be provided, not only for the Judges of the High Court, from the judicial part of the Indian Civil Service, but to barrister Judges specially appointed to the High Court who would not otherwise be entitled to a proportionate pension in the provisions here set out. Under existing laws, Judges of the Indian Civil Service are entitled to proportionate pensions, but not those who are barristers, specially appointed, who have not served the full minimum time, which is normally taken as seven years. In fact, of course, their service may be considerably longer.
  This Bill enables us, in the special circumstances which have prevailed, to pay proportionate pensions to those Judges of the High Court who, for various reasons, retire before the full time has expired. That is provided for in the first clause of the Bill. Clause 1 also provides that, in the case of Judges who have not served the full seven years, two years are to be added to the period of their service for the purpose of estimating the pension. Under Clause 2 of the Bill, for the amount of pension which will otherwise be payable, a sum of £200 maximum is provided, and a proportion of that full sum will be added to the

  781
  pension, according to the length of service which the learned Judge is entitled to claim. Clause 3 is specially drawn to apply to the Lord Chief Justice, who has retired after five years of service, and it enables the pension, apart from the compensation, to be paid to that learned Judge. Clause 4 applies similar provisions in similar circumstances not only to the Judges who have served in Pakistan and India, but also to those who have served in the High Court at Rangoon, in Burma. The other clauses of the Bill are really machinery clauses, which I feel are self-explanatory. I think it may be said that this represents a frank and friendly gesture on the part of His Majesty's Government. I can truly say that it has been exceedingly well received, and was called for in the special circumstances attaching to these times. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Addison.)
  4.10 p.m.
  VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, I do not doubt that the House will be glad to pass this Bill, which has already been before another place. The circumstances in which it has to be passed are, however, worth mentioning. The Indian Independence Act, 1947, became law in July of last year, and it contained no provision at all for dealing with this subject matter. It did contain a provision that an existing Judge of the High Court in India who continued to serve as a Judge after the appointed day, either in the Dominion of Pakistan or in the Dominion of India, should retain the same rights to salary and pension as he already enjoyed. But the Bill which was introduced in the summer of last year did not make any provision for compensating Judges who had accepted appointment to the High Court in India, and accepted that appointment as their life work, but who felt that the setting up of the new system of government by the Indian Independence Act so fundamentally altered the basis on which they had been led to accept their Judgeships that they must retire. Some of us pointed out at the time what we thought might well turn out to be the situation. Now that we are able to look at the matter with a little more information and perspective, I think we can see that it is so.
  782
  The staffing of the Indian High Court is a very anxious matter. Some of the Judges, of course, were drawn from the Indian Civil Service. They are dealt with otherwise, and I am not criticising that. But there was a very important part of each Indian High Court which was staffed by appointments of barristers from this country. All of us who have been interested in this matter have from time to time been concerned to help in finding the right sort of barrister who would abandon his chances of practice here in order to undertake work in the High Court in India. Of course, when they did accept it—and they were people of experience—they were abandoning their prospects here and, in return, were expecting to have life work as Judges in India. Therefore, I think it was quite natural—and I regret it was not more readily recognised—that if the Government of India was changed in the way that it has been changed, it might well be that some of these men, who are men of experience and probity, would find that in the new situation they could not continue with satisfaction to themselves or, I dare say, to others. I do not think it was very difficult to see that. It was an omission when the main Act was passed. I think that the Government were slow to recognise it; but never mind, they recognise it now, and I gather from what has just been said by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House that the terms suggested are regarded as not unreasonable. The Bill involves payments from the British Exchequer, of course, but I am sure we shall be prepared to accept it.
  I must be allowed, however, to make one observation. The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations who presented this Bill the other day to the House of Commons explained the basis of the matter in a way which I certainly could not accept. He first said—and no doubt this is true—that it had now become plain that the continued service of European Judges is no longer acceptable to some, at least, of the Provincial Governments in India. I am sure that if he said so, it is so. I think that a pity because, after all, it was the introduction of British Judges and British justice into India which secured impartial treatment as between the races in that country. About that there is no doubt at all, though I am far from saying that there are not also Judges in the High Court

  783
  of India, drawn from one or other of the Indian races, who show just the same impartiality and just the same determination to do justice. Some of them are my friends, and I know that that is true. But the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations went on to say that he hoped, and he thought we all hoped—I venture to quote these words—
  "that they will continue to serve as long as their service is acceptable to the Government for whom they work."
  With great respect, I venture to say that Judges do not work for any Government; that it has nothing to do with it whether a Judge pleases a Government or displeases a Government. It is the very essence of the judicial office as we understand it—and we have tried in times past to introduce it in India—that a Judge stands completely impartial between the Government and everybody else; and he is not in the least concerned whether the Government like or do not like what he does.
  There must have been some mistake in phraseology, because I am sure that the very distinguished right honourable gentleman who spoke in the Commons cannot really have meant that he was hoping they would continue to serve as long as their services were acceptable to any Government whatever. The truth is quite different. The truth is, of course, that these gentlemen were appointed on the expectation that, whatever changes were made in the Government of India, they would be changes more or less consistent with the situation under which they accepted office. After all, many of these men took a great risk. Many of them gave up their chances of earning their livelihood here, and some of them have only recently gone to India. I know of one case of a Chief Justice who was there for only a couple of years. Of course, if they were really going to lose their position without a provision of this sort, it would surely be very unjust indeed, because they find themselves cut off from the work which they were invited to accept and, it may be, at the very time of their lives when their domestic expenses are at a maximum.
  I am therefore very glad indeed that the Government have seen fit to take this course, and from the inquiries I have made I believe it is true (as the noble
  784
  Viscount opposite said) that the terms are accepted, though I am not able to say I myself think them very generous. I recall—I believe I am right—that when British Judges ceased to serve in Egypt (I think at the time of Sir Miles Lampson), the Egyptian Authorities drew up a paper which showed the length of their service, salaries and so forth. So far as I remember, they asked the British Treasury what they would regard as reasonable compensation. The Treasury, I believe, answered this inquiry and the Egyptian Government then added 50 per cent. to the figure suggested; and undoubtedly the Judges retired well satisfied that they had been fairly dealt with. It is not to the point here that this burden should have fallen on the Indian Government, rather than on the British Government; one quite appreciates that it is one of the adjustments which had to be made.
  I have thought it right to make these observations, which are not intended to be critical of the Bill, because it is important to realise that these men, though not very numerous, have in fact suffered a grievous disappointment in their professional prospects. If you are a barrister, you cannot, without very great difficulty, come back after you have been away for many years and resume practice. Sonic of these men, I am glad to say, have now found new work here—one in particular of whom I know—and that is as it ought to be, because these men have by no means exhausted their powers. I therefore warmly approve of the Bill, and I hope I may be forgiven for giving a little actuality to the situation. We all sympathise with men who went out expecting to serve until they came to the end of their working life and who, through no fault of their own or of anybody else, have found their career cut off in the middle.
  THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, having inherited some interest in Judges, as well as some interest in India, perhaps I may be allowed, on behalf of my noble friends, to welcome the provisions of this Bill. Those who have served the cause of justice in India have deserved so well of the people of this country that we should be reluctant to see anything done which was against their interests, or anything left undone which their interests demanded at the

  785
  end of their service. I confess that I share the feeling of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, that the provision contained in this Bill does not err on the side of generosity; but at least there is a provision, and for that we must be thankful.
  4.23 p.m.
  EARL WAVELL: My Lords, I am sure this Bill will be welcomed by all of your Lordships as affording some measure of justice to those whose administration of justice in India and Burma has fully maintained the British reputation for fair play and observance of the law. As the last Viceroy and Governor-General of India present here today, I should like to pay a short tribute to the personality and the work of these Judges which I saw and admired during my term of office. Their task was no easy one; they had to work in an atmosphere charged and supercharged with suspicion and hatred, not only between the two main communities, Hindu and Moslem, but sometimes also amongst educated political classes where there was suspicion of the British as British. But amongst all, Hindu or Moslem, educated or uneducated, rich or poor, their character, professional ability and unremitting labours earned the most profound respect for British law, British justice and British Judges.
  The administration of law was by no means their only work. Whenever any difficult problem, especially as between the two main communities, had to be resolved and adjudicated upon, the main burden usually fell on a British Judge. Thus, the Chief Justice, Sir Patrick Spens, to whose tact and wise counsel in all matters of constitutional law and other questions pertaining to his office I should like to pay a tribute, was engaged, right up to the partition of August 15, 1947, in addition to all his other labours, in presiding over a Commision on the disastrous riots in Calcutta of August, 1946. Sir Leonard Stone, the Chief Justice of Burma, presided over two most important Tribunals: that which determined the causes of and incidence of reparations after the great explosion in the docks of Bombay in April, 1944, and that on the mutiny in the Royal Indian Navy in 1946. Those are only three instances of the additional work which fell on these few
  786
  men, in a climate where long hours impose considerable additional strain. I could say much more in praise of these Judges, but I am sure that all your Lordships appreciate what they did and how well they maintained in India (and in Burma as well, though I have not the same personal knowledge in that case) what is perhaps the most precious gift of Great Britain to the East—namely, equal justice for all.
  I do not suppose that the award of the Treasury provides all that these Judges had hoped for, or all that they deserve; or that it fully compensates them for what they have done. As noble Lords who have already spoken have said, many of these men gave up very lucrative positions at home to serve their country abroad, and they could have been fully reimbursed only if they had completed their full time in their posts in India. It is obviously extremely difficult to assess compensation for loss of a career; but it is a great thing that a reasonably generous settlement has been made to these men, and I offer my humble congratulations to the Government on this measure.
  In justice to others who have served Great Britain in India with equal patriotism, but in lesser spheres than these Judges, I must add just a few words. This Bill, as I read it, establishes three main principles. The first is that the Secretary of State may pay pensions out of moneys provided by Parliament, and not by the Dominions of India or Pakistan, to men not of the Indian Civil Service. It further provides that these pensions may be paid to those who were serving on August 15, 1947, but who may since have retired. It also lays down that compensation may be paid in certain cases. I earnestly beg that the Government will apply these eminently sound and fair principles to those humbler persons—junior police, railway officials, military clerks and the rest—whose claims have been pleaded by other noble Lords in this House on more than one occasion this year. Something has lately been done for them by providing for those who are still serving the right to retire on proportionate pensions. That was done through the generosity of the Governments of India and Pakistan. But there is something more to be done. There are some of those men who were compelled, not by any lack of public spirit but by force of circumstances, to retire

  787
  after August 15, 1947, yet before the grant of proportionate pensions. There are also some who have a strong claim to compensation for loss of office. Therefore, I hope that the Government will apply these principles to these men in the same way as to the Judges.
  4.31 p.m.
  LORD HAILEY: My Lords, my excuse for troubling your Lordships for a few minutes is that upon a previous occasion I, with some of my friends here, had to press upon your Lordships' attention the case of the Secretary of State's Services in India who were being deprived of their career, and to urge that they should receive adequate compensation. My own career, of course, has been in only the administrative services. There used to be a tradition in India that a certain amount of alienation existed between the administrative services and the judicial Benches. It was a tradition of old standing for as far back as the days of Warren Hastings it was considered improper for a Judge of the High Court of Calcutta even to meet at dinner members of the Administration. But I can speak on behalf of all members of the administrative services when I say that, so far from there now being any such feeling of estrangement or alienation or lack of appreciation, there is no one who has been engaged in an executive capacity in India who does not realise fully what India owes to its Judiciary.
  I often think that there is not a general recognition—as general as there should be—of the fact that the atmosphere of acquiescence or acceptance which the Government of India enjoyed for so many years, and which gave them their chief authority, was due to the fact that the Judiciary had been instrumental in bringing a system of impartial justice to India. There had been gifted administrators before in India, but the one thing that India had never known was a system of impersonal and impartial justice. Realising that, there is none of us who could fail to welcome a Bill which gives to men who had made many sacrifices of their careers in England in order to serve the cause of justice in India some compensation, or at least some consideration, for the loss of their careers in India.
  May I add one further consideration? We had always foreseen that the change
  788
  of the system of government in India must mean a decline in administrative standards. In the beginning, it must at all events have meant dislocation, and afterwards perhaps something even much worse, in the executive organisation of the country. Those of us who have been able to follow, even at this distance, the course of affairs in India in the last year know how far the situation has gone beyond mere dislocation; we know what a grievous falling off there has been in the standards of administrative and executive efficiency. It is a picture that I hope will be revealed to the world, for the whole of it is not yet known in England.
  But, although there has been this falling off in the executive administration, with all the loss that it involves upon the ordinary man in India, we had nevertheless hoped that the momentum acquired by our system of judicial organisation would continue, that there would be no falling off in the standards of justice, at all events in the higher ranks of the Judiciary. It is therefore with deep regret that we must realize that it has been found necessary by some of our barrister and other Judges to consider the termination of their careers on the Bench. That fact cannot but have implications which will be far-reaching for the welfare of India. However, now that we have to recognise that, we must welcome the steps that the Government have taken here—courageous steps, it may be said—to find a solution for the necessity which has been forced on these Judges to retire from the Bench.
  There is one further point—as has been pointed out by the noble Earl, Lord Wavell—that what has hitherto been done for men who have lost their careers in India has reached only a certain range of those officers. There is another wide field in which we cannot but feel that great injustice has been done, and that many wrongs have to be righted. As I know, the noble Earl has espoused the cause of those men, and he will, I hope, have the support and the sympathy of everyone in this House. It may not be that this is the right occasion to enlarge upon that theme, but I hope there will be some further opportunity for explaining in greater detail the hardship suffered by a large body of meritorious officers

  789
  and to endeavour to obtain from the Government some measure of justice for them.
  4.40 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I thank your Lordships for the friendly reception which has been accorded to this Bill. As I think that some of the remarks of the noble Lord who has just spoken may perhaps create an unfortunate impression, I should point out that some of these Judges are very happily and willingly continuing their services in India, and that what he has said does not by any means apply to all the Judges. I hope that any impression to that effect will not be created by anything which the noble Lord has said. As to the terms of compensation, I think it can fairly be said that they are generous; at all events they were willingly accepted as fair. If your Lordships are interested, I will circulate with the Papers afterwards the scheme of compensation which was announced in the other place, and which, of course, stands related to the age of the Judge. I think you will see by that table that the scheme is certainly fair.
  With regard to the other remarks made by the noble Earl, Lord Wavell, I would like to associate myself with what he and the noble and learned Viscount opposite said as to the immense debt which the whole world (and particularly the Continent of India) owes to the tradition which has been established by British Judges over a long series of years, and which, I am sure, has had, and will have, an enduring influence in both India and Pakistan. The point that the noble Earl made with regard to other services was raised by him in some questions a few days ago, and I am well aware, notwithstanding what we have done, that we cannot expect that the noble Earl will ever say that he is satisfied. At the same time, we are doing our best to be fair and, I think he will admit, even generous. But I would call attention to the statement which I made deliberately at the end of my reply on a previous occasion, that my right honourable friend was prepared to receive representations from the classes to which he specially referred. I may say that I made that statement after consulting the Department concerned, and the noble Earl will understand what that means.
  790
  I am sure your Lordships will agree that we should recognise that the fact that those Judges, for various and good reasons, have felt that they wished to retire before their normal time, does not in any way reflect adversely upon their decisions. There are all kinds of family and other circumstances which have led to their decisions, and we are glad that a number of learned Judges are still continuing to serve. As your Lordships are aware, under the rules of our procedure this Bill is related entirely to money questions. I do not think I shall be exceeding the reasonable latitude attaching to these matters when I say that I hope we shall be willing to dispense with the Committee stage, as is usual with Money Bills. I beg to move.
  On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

  CIVIL DEFENCE BILL
  4.44 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the Bill that we are now to consider for its Second Reading is the fourth of its line. The first was enacted in 1937 and was concerned purely and simply with air raid precautions; it called upon the local authorities to prepare plans for submission to the Government for approval in connection with any danger that might arise. Unfortunately, conditions in 1939 were such that the Government could not wait any longer for the replies to be received, and in that Session there was introduced a further Bill. That Bill conferred upon local authorities additional specific functions regarding the provision of public and domestic shelters, placed responsibility upon public utility undertakers to take measures to ensure the due functioning of their undertakings in time of war, required such undertakers, and industrial and commercial employers, to provide shelters and train employees in A.R.P.; further, it called upon public utility societies and the like to obscure their lights in order to avoid danger arising from raids. Noble Lords will not wish to be reminded of our experiences under those Acts of Parliament during the war period. They will, I feel sure, appreciate the extent to which we were involved, in all parts of the country, in carrying through the duties placed upon

  791
  us. The third measure came in 1945—a Bill enacted for the purpose not of repealing the provisions of the previous two Acts but of suspending them, and making the necessary provision for bringing them into force once more in case of emergency.
  The present Bill goes considerably further than the two Acts under which we worked during the war period. In the first place, it may be said to be an enabling measure, giving authority to Ministers to make the utmost preparations possible to safeguard the people of our country from attack, in so far as civil defence can do it. But it also makes provisions of a preparatory character which are of some importance and which noble Lords will see set out in full in Clause 1. They provide for:

  "(a) the organisation, formation, maintenance, equipment and training of civil defence forces and services;

  (b) the organisation, equipment and training for civil defence purposes of police forces, fire brigades, and employees of local or police authorities employed primarily for purposes other than civil defence purposes;

  (c) the instruction of members of the public in civil defence and their equipment for the purposes of civil defence;

  (d) the provision, storage and maintenance of commodities and things required for civil defence; and

  (e) the provision, construction, maintenance or alteration of premises, structures or excavations required for civil defence, and the doing of any other work required for civil defence."

  Even when the proposals are set out in that way, it will be appreciated at once that they are only part of the work that has to be undertaken. There is no mention of transport under the new war conditions. There is no question of communications coming under the responsibility of the Postmaster-General. There is nothing about hospitals or evacuation, or the provision of building, and a host of other matters. So that this measure, whilst it provides great work for the community to face in preparation, will cover, in the powers it gives to Ministers, many of those things which I have mentioned but which have not in so many words been put into the measure itself.
  The second subsection of Clause 1 gave rise to considerable discussion in another place, particularly when it was taken in conjunction with the second subsection of Clause 9. The Government
  792
  were of opinion that preparations of this character would be so all-embracing in a period of war that practically every Ministry would be called upon to perform some function in connection therewith. They therefore provided that there should be designated Ministers, and that these designated Ministers should work as a Joint Committee as occasion required. Those of your Lordships who followed the debates in another place, will remember the keen criticism that arose on this particular point. The Government have met the criticism, the Bill has been amended, and it comes before your Lordships in its amended form. The designated Ministers will, in all probability, be the Home Secretary and such other Ministers as will be designated by particular Orders in Council, in which their duties will be very clearly shown.
  Perhaps it may help your Lordships if I quote briefly from the final speech of Mr. Peake, on behalf of the Opposition, because I think that he has stated very clearly what the Amendments amounted to, and the kind of satisfaction which was given to him and to the Opposition in general. He said:
  "By leave of the House, I should like to say that I am very much obliged to the right honourable gentleman. I think that his proposal to delete from the subsection the words 'or such Ministers acting jointly' goes a very long way to meet the objections from this side of the House. It will mean that, although different Ministers may be designated, the functions of each designated Minister will be clearly laid down in the Order in Council, and that the whole House and the public will know what is the sphere of his responsibilities. That seems to us to mark a great advance from the provisions originally in the Bill, and I thank the right honourable gentleman for the concession."
  VISCOUNT SIMON: May I ask the noble Lord a question at this point? I trust that I shall not be inconveniencing him. I understood him to say that these Ministers would form a Committee. I am seeking only for information, but I should like to know whether that is to be found in the Bill.
  LORD SHEPHERD: Not now. If the noble Viscount had caught correctly the words which I read, in the course of that quotation, he would realise that there has been deleted from the Bill the words: "or such Ministers acting jointly." I was reading that passage as it expressed the gratitude of the Front Bench Members

  793
  of the Opposition for the change that had been made. But the Minister thought that on the whole, whilst accepting the Amendment, it was right to make clear that there would be occasion in the new circumstances for Ministers to consult. He said:
  "It must be understood, of course, that there will be occasions on which the Ministers will have to consider matters jointly. For instance, on the Committee stage, I gave the example of evacuation in which the Ministers of Health, Education and Transport are certainly involved. In fact, as one who went to the Board of Education—as it then was—just at the time when the second evacuation was taking place, I am quite sure that better arrangements would have been made had the Board of Education in those days been more closely associated with the evacuation scheme."
  So, in the view of the Secretary of State, although the Amendment has been accepted and will be operated, and although there will be no Joint Committee as previously arranged, there will be need for consultation, there will be need for co-operation, and, on occasion, perhaps, there may be need for joint action.
  Clause 2 deals with the position of the local government authorities. This clause is framed so as to empower designated Ministers to prescribe by regulations the functions to be exercised by local and police authorities for the purposes indicated in Clause 1. It is intended that a local static force shall be recruited, trained and equipped by local authorities, and such authorities will be clothed with the necessary powers by conferring suitable functions on them by regulations made under Clause 2 (1). Local authorities will also be empowered, by regulations, to train and equip for purposes of civil defence members of existing forces and services—that is to say, police, fire, medical and health services—whose peace-time functions would have to be enlarged in war time to cover civil defence activities. Where expedient, functions can be made partly the responsibility of a Minister under Clause 1, and partly the responsibility of local authorities or police authorities, under Clause 2 (1). For example, in the field of advice and instruction to the public, action could be taken either in respect of the country as a whole, by a central Department under Clause 1 (1) (c), or as regards a particular locality by the appropriate local authority, by virtue of regulations
  794
  under Clause 2 (1). Clause 1 (1) (d) will enable central Departments to obtain and house under their own control reserves of materials, plant and equipment, whilst, under powers conferred on them by regulations, local authorities will be able themselves to set up stores of such articles as may be deemed suitable for local custody and storage.
  Under paragraph (a), of subsection (2), local authorities and police authorities may be placed under an obligation to discharge their functions in accordance with any directions that may be given them by the designated Minister. Under paragraph (b), local authorities and police authorities can be empowered to set up committees—that is to say, emergency committees or civil defence co-ordinating committees—to which, as agents, could be delegated civil defence functions enjoyed by the delegating authorities. This would, for example, make possible the appointment of a joint committee for civil defence purposes of a local authority—that is, a county council—and a police authority—that is, a standing joint committee. The primary purpose of paragraph (d) is to give power to deal with cases where it may be necessary to construct a shelter or a civil defence building, or otherwise to develop land in a manner which would be out of accord with the requirements of the law as to town planning.
  For example, it is contemplated that the bases of local mobile services would be situated on the fringes of target areas, and a situation might arise in which civil defence operational considerations would necessitate the provision of something in the nature of a barracks for a mobile column in an area designated as a green belt. In practice, of course, every effort would be made to meet the requirements of local planning authorities, but it is to be anticipated that in some instances it would prove impossible to reach complete agreement. It is therefore essential to be armed with a power which, in the extreme case, could be used to override town planning requirements. The associations of local authorities will be brought fully into consultation before regulations are made under this and other clauses of the Bill. By Clause 8 (3), all regulations will require to be approved by affirmative Resolution in both Houses.

  795
  The third clause deals with finance. Under the Act of 1937 there was a percentage formula in operation, but the grants from the Government to the local authorities averaged about 75 per cent. During the war, certain items of expenditure were fully reimbursed to the local authorities—for example, those items covering costs of full-time workers and of shelters. But the regulations now contemplated will divide expenditure into two categories, expenses in the one being wholly reimbursable and in the other attracting grants of not more than 75 per cent. The following principles, agreed with the Treasury, have been accepted by the associations of local authorities, and it is proposed to adopt them as a basis for detailed regulations to be settled in consultation with these associations.
  Any expenditure on major capital works required at the direction of the appropriate Minister for the Government's general plan of civil defence would be reimbursed. This would include, for example, the cost of any air raid shelter programme. It is intended also to include the cost of any major equipment or appliances the provision of which in peace is authorised by the appropriate Minister as a reserve against the event of war. If convenient, such equipment would be provided centrally; and, if not, the cost would be reimbursed. Minor equipment would qualify for reimbursement if it was a type which could not be turned over gradually in peace time. Other expenditure in peace time, whether on an existing or a new service, which is specifically incurred for civil defence purposes, with the prior approval of the appropriate Minister, would be reimbursed or grant-aided according to the principles applied in the later stages of the 1939–45 war to comparable expenditure by local authorities, subject to appropriate provision as to the categories of administrative costs which would attract Exchequer assistance.
  The rate of Exchequer grant in respect of grant-aided expenditure would be fixed at a uniform figure for all areas for all purposes. Clause 3 specifies a rate of not more than three quarters of the expenses, and a standard rate of 75 per cent. would be adopted. Full reimbursement, in the one category, and payment of the standard rate of 75per cent., in the other,
  796
  would be subject to the efficient discharge of their functions by the local authority. There are to be special provisions for water undertakings and the like, which are at present entitled to grants and compensation under the Act of 1939, an Act that could not operate unless it were brought into force once more. It is proposed to take these undertakings out of their old categories and bring them under this measure, so that if these undertakings have done any work in readiness for any emergency that might arise, that work will rank for compensation.
  I do not propose to deal with all the clauses of the Bill, because that would take up too much time. I want to deal now only with Clause 6. This clause took up a great deal of time in another place, because it was doubted whether the first proposals of the Government would meet with the response required. The clause was considerably amended. Under the clause as it now stands:
  "The designated Minister may by regulations—
  bring again into force any provision of the Civil Defence Acts, 1937 and 1939, … and, in particular, … any provision of those Acts relating to factories, mines, commercial buildings or public utility undertakings, the operation of which was suspended as aforesaid:
  direct that any provisions of those Acts which was spent before the passing of the Civil Defence (Suspension of Powers) Act, 1945, and, in particular, … any provision of those Acts relating to notices to be given and grants to be made in the case of factories, mines, commercial buildings or public utility undertakings which was spent as aforesaid, shall again come into force;
  make, in any of the provisions … any such amendments as appear to him to be required owing to the passage of time or to be necessary or expedient to adapt them to any changes which have occurred since the passing of the said Acts … including, in particular, any actual or apprehended developments in the forms of warfare;
  repeal any of the provisions of the said Acts and, if it appears to him necessary or expedient so to do having regard to any such changes as aforesaid, substitute any comparable provision for any provision so repealed."
  Perhaps I may be permitted to quote Mr. Peake again in respect of the Amendments which the Government accepted on this clause, as an indication that the clause is now drafted in such a way as to be acceptable, I hope, to both sides. Mr. Peake said:
  "This is a matter upon which consultation did of course take place on the suggestion of

  797
  the Home Secretary. My right honourable friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) and myself have given very careful consideration to the terms of these Amendments and, as no one can foresee precisely the forms of attack from which we may have to defend ourselves in the future, we think these words are as fair as any which the right honourable Gentleman could reasonably give in limiting the powers which he will take for Civil Defence in the future. I hope my honourable friends behind me will be satisfied that these matters have been very carefully considered and, so far as we can be satisfied, we are satisfied about the position."
  Finally, it has been urged that the Government ought to make a fuller statement of what they intend to do after this Bill is passed. It is not possible to go beyond what the Home Secretary stated on the Second Reading. Before action can be taken there will have to be a good many discussions with authorities concerned, especially local authority associations, organisations of employers and the T.U.C. Discussions with the local authority associations have been carried a good way, but there remain some points for discussion, and the Home Secretary has promised that they will be consulted further before decisions are taken. Discussions with the employers and the T.U.C. have not yet been started. I think that that is all I need say about the Bill to-day. Your Lordships will note that the debate is to be wound up by the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack, and if there is anything that I have missed, or any points that your Lordships wish to raise, I am sure he will be pleased to reply to them. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a,—(Lord Shepherd.)
  5.8 p.m.
  LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I have listened very carefully to what has been said by the noble Lord who has introduced this Bill, but I would suggest that there are many matters in it which are still shrouded in mystery and require further explanation. I think it is true to say that this Bill is nothing more than a skeleton, and I am not sure that some of the bones on the skeleton are even in the right place. We, of course, welcome the Bill as being better than nothing, but it does not set out a civil defence plan at all. It is really nothing more than a machinery Bill—and this after two years of discussions, Committees and debates in both Houses on this very important
  798
  matter. The Bill is nothing less than legislation by decree of the widest possible character. It is true that the regulations are to be subject to affirmative Resolutions, but it should be remembered that such Resolutions cannot be amended; they must be either accepted or rejected. I suggest that it would be far better if these regulations were laid in draft form. I would also like to suggest to your Lordships that before such enormous powers are granted to them as are set out in Clause 6, His Majesty's Government should be called upon to provide far more information concerning their intentions than is set out in this Bill.
  I am sure your Lordships are glad to see that an Amendment was accepted by His Majesty's Government (it has already been mentioned by the noble Lord who introduced this Bill), whereby one Minister is now to be a designated Minister and, after consultation with other Ministers, will have overall responsibility. I hope I am right in thinking that this is the correct interpretation of the redraft of the Bill, as it was amended in another place. If it is, it is undoubtedly a great improvement, and I am sure it will be welcomed on all sides. We are also glad to see that any question of fines for non-attendance for voluntary service has now been removed from the Bill. I cannot quite follow the chain of command under the Bill as at present drawn. Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount who is to reply will be able to elucidate that point a little further. Arising out of this matter, I should like to ask whether the Civil Defence Planning Organisation are represented on the Chiefs of Staff Committee. I suggest that this is a vital matter and of the utmost importance for proper co-ordination.
  Another point is that no decision appears to have been taken as to what categories of men are to be exempt from service in the Armed Forces. I would suggest that until this decision has been made it will be impossible to arrive at the man-power figure for civil defence. We still do not know what is the shelter policy of His Majesty's Government, and what advice, if any, has been given to local authorities and industry generally. Of course we do not want to turn the nation into a troglodyte community, and waste our resources on building enormous shelters. On the other hand, I think there is a great deal that

  799
  could be done, as regards shelter organisation and advice, without undue expense.
  I should like to draw your Lordships' attention for a few minutes to Clause 9 of the Bill, the Interpretation Clause. This clause lays down that the term "civil defence" includes:
  "… any measures not amounting to actual combat …"
  No doubt there must be some dividing line, but what is to happen when a locality is attacked by airborne troops? I can well imagine an unfortunate member of the Civil Defence Corps being confronted with the difficult position as to whether he is acting in accordance with his standing orders if he defends himself and his family. I would suggest that one of the greatest dangers to this country is the sudden flooding of the country with airborne troops in the early stages of a war. I hope we shall not be again met with the argument that plans could not be set out in the Bill because not enough is known about the next war to prepare them. A very great deal is already known, and I think it will be very much better that, so far as possible, the people should be told what to expect from the new weapons of war, and that plans should be prepared accordingly.
  I should again like to put forward the plea which I raised during the Civil Defence debate in June of this year—namely, that with the consent of His Majesty, the Civil Defence organisation should be known as the Royal Civil Defence Corps. I am convinced that such an honour would have a very great effect on recruiting for the organisation, and would give the Corps a status in the country commensurate with its importance. I need hardly remind your Lordships of the excellent precedent which we had in the last war with the Royal Observer Corps, which did such excellent work. I cannot help feeling that this Bill will produce little enthusiasm in the country for civil defence. On the other hand, if a real plan had been set out in the Bill, I have little doubt that there would be a ready response from the people. The people are waiting to be told the facts, but all they are to be given is a skeleton structure. In the last war there was plenty of time to build up an organisation before it became
  800
  actively necessary, but I suggest that it is very unlikely that such time will be available in the event of a future war. I hope that His Majesty's Government have a real plan in mind for civil defence, that steps will be taken to make it known to the public, and that the structure will be built up as soon as possible.
  5.15 p.m.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I do not intend to go over the same ground that my noble friend Lord Teynham has covered so clearly. I want, if I may, to turn my attention to two particular points. The first is: What is the strategic conception behind this Bill? We know very well that it is largely an enabling Bill, and that it is only a framework; but, even so, one would have thought that there must be some strategic conception behind it. Otherwise, I fail to see how we can start making any plans at all. If there had not been a strategic conception accepted, I hardly think it would have been right to introduce a Bill, because to bring in a measure of this kind without having accepted any strategic conception would be really to deceive the people into thinking that something was going to happen about civil defence, whereas nothing could happen until it was decided what was the sort of danger against which preparations were to be made. The more I read the Bill, and the more I read the debates in another place, the less certain I was that any strategic conception of the threat which we have to face had been agreed upon or, alternatively, as I might say, the more certain I was that if there had been a strategic conception, then it corresponded exactly with the strategic conception of civil defence in the late war, and was aiming at a plan which might, indeed, reproduce all the successes of civil defence from 1939 to 1945, but would also reproduce all the failures. All the way through this Bill there seems to be an intense departmental desire to keep the departmental claim staked out and, above all, not to let the military have more to do with it than is absolutely necessary. That is all right, providing we can rely on the enemy to keep the same clear distinction as we wish to preserve between civil defence, civil attack, and military attack. I do not think they will.
  This matter will arise, as I will attempt to show in a moment, on the man-power question. It also arises in two other direc

  801
  tions. One is the question of the higher control, which I do not want to refer to at any great length, because the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has dealt with it very fairly, and has pointed to the long discussion in another place which, I agree with him, ended up more satisfactorily than it began. In other words, there is a certain amount of machinery right at the top—namely, at the Defence Committee of the Cabinet and the Chiefs of Staff—although I am not quite convinced that all is going to happen just as we want it to, and that departmental spanners will not get into the works. Still, no one can say that that point is not tidied up in the Bill. So far, so good. Later on I think I can see a reasonable hope of making the best use of personnel, the best use of the military when they are required, and the best use of interdepartmental co-operation.
  One point in particular strikes me, and it is this. The legal position of command—that is to say, the business of placing soldiers under the command of, shall I say, Regional Commissioners, or civil defence personnel under the command of Army officers—will want to be looked at again by legal experts, and looked at carefully, in the light of the new conditions. The reason why I say that is because most of our legal arrangements, and most of our arrangements in regard to the troops assisting the civil authority, are based on a situation of internal riot and insurrection, and not on a situation where the King's enemies cause disturbance among our civil population. The latter instance, which is the one we are now considering in the Civil Defence Bill, is quite a different thing. I have a strong suspicion that the present legal arrangements in regard to command and control as between the civil and the military are now so out of date and refer so much to civil commotion that they will turn out to be positive hindrances to proper co-operation if we again have to face seriously civil defence measures. I would therefore ask that that point should be considered.
  My chief complaint about this Bill and the way in which it has been presented is the total failure to deal with the organisation and the allocation of part-time man-power. I will try to explain why I think the failure to deal with that matter is likely to wreck this Bill in its operation, or to wreck any
  802
  regulations which are made under it, unless this problem is dealt with at once. As I have already said, it appears to me that this Bill will have the effect of perpetuating departmental divisions and, therefore, of perpetuating private armies. When I was first introduced to this subject, which was at the end of 1940, I thought at first that there were only two private armies engaged in this matter—the private army of the Secretary of State for War, and the private army of the Home Secretary and Minister of Home Security. I was soon undeceived. I found that, instead of there being one private army in the Ministry of Home Security, there were at least four or five: the police, the wardens' service, the fire service, the fire-watchers—and I can think of some more. Believe it or not, before I had been looking after the Home Guard for very long someone tried to divide that private army into two.
  Now I should keep your Lordships here a very long time were I to attempt to tell you all about the three years of boredom and waste of time which I had to experience in dealing with the question of Home Guard personnel versus Civil Defence, and all because no one at the top would really take a grip on part-time man-power. Let me take the case of fire-watching. Early in 1940, those who were responsible for fire-watching were allowed by somebody or other to make a computation of the number of fire-watchers in relation to the floor space of the premises which they had to watch. That proved to bear no relation whatever to the proportion of the part-time manpower and woman-power of the country who could reasonably be spared for fire-watching.
  In talking about part-time man-power, I am assuming that the same arrangements will hold good as held good in the late war; that is to say, that the principle will be adopted that every able-bodied person who is not a lunatic or conscientious objector or something of that sort will be required to make a draft on his time amounting to forty hours a month, and that he must give it either as a volunteer to the service of his choice or as a directed person to the service where he is wanted. If that had been done in the early days of the last war we should have had a real grip of this business. We should never have had those faction fights which went on the

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  whole time, only slightly interfered with every now and then by another dispute which was taking place between Great Britain and the Axis Powers and which appeared at the time to be relatively unimportant. We should have avoided those faction fights and also the gross waste of man-power as between Civil Defence and the Home Guard. I know the Home Guard was not a Civil Defence Service and I may be accused of going wide of this Bill. I do not think I am, however, because the point I want to make is that until it is decided whether there shall be a Home Guard, the overall allocation of part-time man-power cannot be made with any accuracy and, therefore, cannot form the basis of any plan. Therefore, if we pass this Bill I want to go on record as saying that it will not make sense, nor will the regulations make sense, unless as a first step this question of part-time man-power is gripped and the Minister of Labour is brought into the picture. The name of that Minister should have been on the Bill but he was not mentioned in another place.
  Having settled the question of manpower, then let the strategic conception be worked out. Let it be seen in the Defence Committee where the part-time man-power should go. Let it be announced whether they are going to the Civil Defence Services and whether there is to be a Home Guard. Bear in mind that if there is not to be a Home Guard, and if it is not desired to duplicate the work of the wardens and other civil defence people in the Home Guard, then it will be necessary to delete from the Bill the clause which now prevents rural civil defence workers from being trained to use a rifle to shoot the stray parachutist—who the Home Secretary thought was not coming. It may be necessary to think again. I will quote, if I may, from what the Home Secretary said. It is in column 2346 of Hansard:
  "We do not anticipate that we shall be required to deal with paratroops."
  I wish I could share the optimism of the Home Secretary, but I am afraid I cannot. In all sincerity, I point to these matters which must receive attention if our civil defence measures are to become a reality and if the time of a great many people, high and low, is not to be wasted.
  5.27 p.m.
  LORD HARLECH: My Lords, I propose to say a few words, not on the important questions of strategy and forms of defence but on the strict terms of the Bill—namely, the skeleton structure of civil defence authority. My recollection goes back to the outbreak of the war in 1939, when I was sent by the Minister of Home Security—who was also Home Secretary—as Regional Commissioner for Yorkshire to prepare the full mobilisation in war of the Civil Defence Services. I presume that it is intended not to attempt to run the whole scheme from Whitehall, and that the regional organisation will be set up under this Bill and that there will be Regional Commissioners. The first thing I want to say about those Regional Commissioners is that I am quite sure their position vis-à-vis the Departments, other than the Minister who appoints them, must be more clearly set out.
  In my experience, the outstanding cause of difficulty throughout the whole first year of the war was the absolute separation of the duties of the Regional Commissioner—appointed by the Minister of Home Security and dealing, of course, with police, wardens, fire services, communications—from the Ministry of Health. The Ministry of Health never recognised the Regional Commissioners—they had their own men in the regions. By courtesy, after some months, we Regional Commissioners were sent copies of the orders issued by the Ministry of Health in respect of its services, such as ambulances and the like. It was not until we all banded together and went to see Mr. Herbert Morrison—who was then Home Secretary, Minister of Home Security and our chief—that we obtained an interview with Mr. MacDonald and the hierarchy of the Ministry of Health. The real trouble was over all forms of evacuation. That was no concern of the Regional Commissioners no concern of the agents of the designated Minister. That was kept as the close preserve of the Ministry of Health and their representatives.
  It really was tragic. I reported over and over again that inefficient vehicles were being received as ambulances and could not operate in a combined scheme or anything of that kind. One foresaw that bombs would fall and block water supplies. I remember an occasion when

  805
  one-third of the City of Sheffield was without any piped water supply for a very long time. That meant getting water carts. Fortunately, there was no invasion, and we were able to obtain water carts from the Army by private arrangement. The Ministry of Health did not think water carts were necessary. That is an example of the kind of difficulty I should like to see removed, and one of the functions that I should like to see in the hands of the civil defence authorities under the Minister of Home Security. I hope that the Minister of Home Security will always be the Home Secretary, with that Minister's ultimate powers over police and the like. I am sure that that is the right way. I except, of course, hospitals; but first aid posts and their personnel should be at the disposal of Regional Commissioners and of the Civil Defence corps as a whole. That dichotomy of the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Home Security—the Ministry of Health being very jealous about giving up anything to the Ministry of Home Security—is the thing which stands out most clearly in my recollections of those days.
  Then there was the matter of evacuation—and here we are getting into rather deep water. After the fall of France, when the Cabinet told everybody to get busy because of the possibility of an invasion, the military authorities with whom I was concerned were making preparations to deal with a possible landing between Flamborough Head and Spurn Head, on the beaches of the East Riding of Yorkshire. If he had landed there, the enemy could have rushed across the open country above Hull and cut the railway. Conferences were held between the military and civil defence chiefs in the Northern Command, and the General Officer Commanding began to collect such troops as were there to repel such an invasion. Many problems arose in connection with the need to evacuate as large a proportion as possible of the population of the City of Hull; among other things a special road was to be allocated. I then discovered that I had no authority to go into that question. I was told that that was the job of the Ministry of Health. That, of course, was ridiculous, in the circumstances.
  I am quite sure that we must have one civilian Minister in charge of all aspects of Civil Defence. It is only if there is unity at Whitehall, with a representative
  806
  of all aspects of civil defence in the regions, a representative of the emergency committees—the county councils, county boroughs, and scheme-making authorities—and of all the local government officials, working as a team and responsible to the Minister, that we shall get a proper system. I always had the greatest difficulty in knowing whether we were right in asking the medical officers of health to do certain things; I did not know whether that was in the power of the Regional Commissioner, or whether the function was still retained within the Ministry of Health. That dichotomy must be broken down. I must say that in my region we had a splendid lot of scheme-making authorities and an extraordinarily good local government corps—that is to say, clerks of county councils, city and borough engineers, in fact, all heads of departments, chief constables and the like. They were second to none in the United Kingdom, and when the trouble began the whole scheme worked magnificently.
  I am quite sure that the more Whitehall can allow those people to run their own show—especially in such matters as the distribution of man-power, the placing of shelters and in all other such matters—the better. They knew their areas; they are efficient people. And all the Regional Commissioner ought to do is to see that they help each other, and that they receive from the central authority all that they need. If there are two or three Ministries in Whitehall, all issuing different orders, all having different plans for recruiting, different conditions and different scales of remuneration, there will be chaos. I hope to see all the necessary powers transferred to the jurisdiction of the Home Secretary. One realises the difficulties in peace time: but in this civilian battle the spearpoint is the police and fire services, and it is vital that they should be in control of the other and ancillary services.
  I do not wish to say anything on other major aspects of the skeleton provisions in the Bill. I read the debate which was held last Friday in another place, in which these subjects were raised, and I am sure that before we part from this Bill we must secure from the Government a very clear undertaking that if the Home Secretary selects men to be Regional Commissioners, their relations with the Ministry of Health must be clearly laid down

  807
  beforehand; they must know where they stand. This is absolutely essential if the Civil Defence teams are to work as a whole.
  5.39 p.m.
  EARL BEATTY: My Lords, I do not wish to detain your Lordships long, particularly as I am the only Back-Bencher to speak in this debate—sandwiched between noble Lords speaking from the Front Bench and the noble Lord who has just spoken with all the experience of a Regional Commissioner. All have addressed your Lordships with far greater authority and knowledge than I can possibly claim. I welcome this Bill as at least an advance on the debate we had on this subject in June of this year, but although it is only an enabling Bill, and as such highly streamlined, I am bound to say that the speech of the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading this afternoon did not, by reason of its lack of information, fill me with confidence as to the future. Moreover, I do not think that, with the best of intentions, it could be claimed that it will go out to the public as a clarion call that will make them flock to the Civil Defence forces. And that, after all, is what we want and must have in the future. I hope noble Lords opposite will put a little more enthusiasm into their speeches when they introduce measures of this kind into this House.
  I trust that soon we shall pass on to planning from the stage of research and discussion to which the debates here and in another place have been confined. We must take early action, and it is surely time that we had more details available. The production of a plan as soon as possible is what is wanted. One is inclined to be a little suspicious of the Government's earnestness in this matter because, as your Lordships will remember, in the Home Office memorandum issued early this year the accent was laid on mobile military columns, whereas now, in both the speech of the Home Secretary and in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, the accent is laid upon the local authorities. I am not qualified to say which is the better way of dealing with this matter. I comment upon it only because such a change of mind after long consideration of this question cannot inspire one with a great deal of confidence.
  808
  It is difficult to be constructive in a speech because both the noble Lord opposite and the Government speakers in another place have enshrouded their intentions for the future with secretiveness and with vagueness. Secrecy in all the Defence Services is regarded by the noble Lord opposite as a virtue, but many people think, as I do, that that is a mistaken policy, because any potential enemy can find out the details if he wants to learn them. In any case, it is interpreted as a weakness if we hide up what we are doing or intend to do. The United States take a different attitude in this matter, and I commend their way of doing things to noble Lords opposite: their production, for example, of the Air Policy Commission Report, which brought home to the public and made them appreciate the dangers that were facing their country. Recently, on November 13, they produced the Office of Civil Defence Planning Report on this most important question, to bring home to the people of the United States the dangers with which they were faced. I am sure that if the morale of our people is to be maintained in the face of a sudden attack with unorthodox weapons of the future, the really important thing is that the public should be kept informed now of the possibilities of those future weapons and of the defence measures we intend to take. I am certain that the public are ignorant of the dangers they have to be prepared to face in the future, and I am sure that a great deal more could have been done in the last three years to work up enthusiasm amongst local authorities upon this vital matter.
  There is only one aspect of the Bill upon which I should like to touch and about which I hope we shall hear more in the future—that is, the training of the officers and seamen of the Merchant Service to deal with such unorthodox weapons as bacteriological and biological warfare, which we can expect in the future. I am raising this point only because I feel certain that if we have an efficient Civil Defence Service ashore, the Navy can look after itself afloat. The Merchant Service, however, might well fall between two stools in this respect. It is not for me to remind your Lordships that the maintenance of the supply of both raw materials and food is probably the most vital factor we shall have

  809
  to face should there unfortunately be another outbreak of war. We must see to it that the men in our merchant vessels, who may be away from this country for a long period before such an outbreak, out of touch with what is going on, and who may be bringing vital cargo into London or some other big port at a critical moment when an attack is imminent, will have adequate training to deal with the situation. I hope that their equipment and training will not be forgotten in the future. Perhaps the noble Lord opposite and the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will be able to give me an assurance upon that point. In conclusion, I welcome this Bill as a start, and I sincerely hope that the next steps will not be long delayed.
  5.48 p.m.
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will bear with me for a few moments while I speak of the special position of Scotland in relation to civil defence. I notice that the noble Lord who introduced this Bill did not mention Scotland. I do not blame him because that country has a rather special position and I am intervening only for the purpose of asking for clarification on one or two points. In the first clause of the Bill, the civil defence functions of the designated Minister are mentioned; but, if we turn to Clause 9, subsection (2), we read:
  "In this Act, the expression 'the designated Minister' means such Minister as may be designated by Order in Council,"
  and so on. Then:
  "Provided that if and in so far as other provision is not made by Order in Council under this subsection, the said expression means the Secretary of State."
  I apprehend that the technical position is that all of His Majesty's principal Secretaries of State are equal and interchangeable, but presumably the Secretary of State meant here is the Home Secretary.
  In Scotland the Secretary of State for Scotland is responsible for a number of activities carried out in England by the Home Secretary. For instance, the efficiency of the police and of the fire brigades is his responsibility. The Department of Health is, of course, in his care, and almost all matters relating to land and buildings, and the acquisition of land, come under the Secretary
  810
  of State. It is therefore clear that there were the seeds of difficulty, as disclosed by the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, when in the early days of the last war the system of Regional Commissioners was set up. But I would say that in Scotland those responsible worked their way through a system of trial and error to a good final result. A really satisfactory combined operation (if I may use that expression) was carried out by the then Secretary of State, Mr. Tom Johnston, who was the first Regional Commissioner at the beginning of the war and then, after something over two years as Regional Commissioner, stepped across to St. Andrew's House and became Secretary of State. He knew both ends of the rope so well that an ideal situation was created, particularly since his Deputy Commissioner was the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, who filled his place as Commissioner for Civil Defence till the end of the war.
  I now want to ask whether the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor feels able in his reply to give some assurance that the special position of Scotland in relation to the duties which the Secretary of State is called upon to discharge is to be safeguarded and the lessons learned followed. The situation reached before the end of the last war was a satisfactory one, but only after a considerable period of adjustment. That is the only point which I would make, but as Scotland has not been mentioned to-day I would be happy if some reference could be made in the concluding speech by the noble and learned Viscount. Finally, I welcome the Bill. I note that it is a skeleton, but there was once a valley of dry hones which were clothed and stood up and became a great army of men. I hope the result of this Bill will be the building up of a real and active force.
  5.52 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful for the approbation with which you have greeted this Bill, and I can assure your Lordships that the observations which have been made, particularly by those who are acquainted with some of the problems experienced during the last war, will receive attention. On the whole, although there were defects, the civil defence services worked well, and let it not be thought that,

  811
  because we are pointing out defects, we do not recognise that people gave a good deal of their time and valuable service to the community. It has often been said that it is characteristic of this country to fight the next war with the weapons of the last. In building up the new system of civil defence, I am most anxious that we shall not assume that the dangers against which we have to guard are the same as, or indeed anything like, the dangers of the last war. That being so, it is obvious that a great deal of thought has to be given to this matter.
  Although I agree that the time for action has come, do not let us have action without having thought. Let us remember that one of the great difficulties in regard to the present time is a shortage of man-power. Here I entirely agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and I will deal presently with that question. We must consider most carefully how we are to use that rather short commodity in this country at the present time. Therefore I think it must be plainly understood—and I am sure everybody agrees about this—that the general supervision over the whole field must come under the Committee of Imperial Defence, because the allocation between what is civil defence and what is, more strictly, military defence is obviously a very difficult one to draw.
  The noble Earl, Lord Beatty, referred to the Merchant Service. I should question very much whether we can completely protect or deal with the Merchant Service under any system of civil defence, however good it may be. It is quite obvious that to stretch out to something which is wider than mere civil defence, and which extends to defence in its widest sense, is to reach out into the military sphere. That being so, the necessity for thinking out how we are going to spend our money and our limited resources, and how we can do so to the best advantage, is a problem which affects this country rather more closely than the U.S.A. In considering these matters, we have to work and plan, and now we have reached the stage of starting. This Bill is not intended to be a clarion call to war. I cannot conceive of anybody getting excited about this Bill. It merely provides the machinery to help us to blow the clarion at the appropriate time; and the clarion will come when we promulgate our regulations.
  812
  Let me say this about these regulations. I have often said that I dislike a very wide regulation-making power. In this particular case, however, I feel (and I believe all your Lordships agree with me) that it is necessary to have a flexible instrument. I believe the best way we can obtain a flexible instrument—because we shall have to move and change, and make a variety of provisions and arrangements—is to have power to make regulations, always provided that we bring the matter under the control of both Houses of Parliament by laying these regulations, as we have to, in draft form, and thereafter obtaining affirmative Resolutions. In that way Parliament can keep control over what we are doing, and I think that is the right thing to do. That is my answer to those who say that in this Bill one does not see the strategic concept—that there is nothing to get excited about. There I fully agree.
  As to the first step, I quite agree that it would be very wrong to concentrate too much of the organisation in Whitehall, whether it be in one or more Departments. I believe that we ought to build largely on the local authorities. Therefore, I think the sensible thing to do, in the first instance, is to try to think out the regulations which will define what is to be left to the local authorities and what is to be for the police authorities. I do not myself believe—and here I am answering the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman—that we can cope with the man-power problem unless and until our minds are clear about that. But, having cleared our minds about that, and having laid down as nearly as possible what are to be the functions of the local authorities and the police authorities, then I think the right course is to proceed to the consideration of man-power. And this question of man-power must, I think, he considered in conjunction with the Ministry of Labour, because then only can one be sure of drawing on the right sort of field and not drawing away from useful and essential work, people whose absence from that work is doing more harm than their presence in a particular form of civil defence work is doing good.
  The first step, therefore, must be the allocation of responsibility to the local authorities and police forces. The second step must be to allocate man-power and

  813
  to see that it is drawn from appropriate fields. At the present time I am not prepared to say (since I do not know, and I do not suppose anybody else does) to what extent, if at all, it w ill be necessary to have anything analogous to the Home Guard of the last war; it may or may not prove necessary. In the course of the debate, I think some noble Lords seemed rather to stray outside the region of civil defence into the region of military defence. That, of course, I do not propose to discuss. On the question whether there should be one or two Departments in Whitehall, or even three or four, I observe what the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, speaking from great experience, said. For my part, I am not sure that it may not be wise to delegate certain matters—indeed, I think it is the intention to do so. For instance, the noble Lord would, and did, agree about hospitals. Whether or not ambulances come within the category, I do not know. But what is essential is that we build up some machine which will override and prevent these internecine quarrels between various Departments.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I wonder whether I may venture to make a suggestion here, drawing upon my own experience in dealing with Regional Commissioners and also upon my practical experience as a Resident Minister who is in effect a projection of other Ministers. I think there is great difficulty in making one Minister entirely responsible at headquarters. After all, the various Ministers must get together to settle their differences and co-ordinate their activities. What seems to me to be absolutely vital is that the Regional Commissioner should constitute, so to speak, the one headquarters in his region, and that representatives of all these different Ministries—the Home Office, the Ministry of Labour, and so on—should be on that Regional Commissioner's staff. That I believe to be absolutely vital.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I cannot speak, as some noble Lords can, with personal knowledge of this matter I think there is very great force in what the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has just said, though I do not go quite so far as the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, in thinking that there must be one Minister in London. I believe the wires ought to contact somewhere, as it were, and a
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  convenient place for that to be arranged would be in the headquarters of the Regional Commissioner always provided (and I regard it as practically certain) that the system of Regional Commissioners will once more be adopted. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, that we must surely take steps in some way to avoid the possibility of departmental quarrels interfering with the efficiency of the machine.
  I think I have dealt with many of the questions that have been asked, but I would like to say a word with regard to what the noble Lord, Lord Clydesmuir, said about the Scottish problem. I apprehend that the answer would be that the Secretary of State in and for Scotland is, broadly speaking, the counterpart of the Minister—the Home Secretary and Minister of Home Security—in England; and be will be responsible in Scotland for these specialised services for which the Home Secretary will be responsible here. I use the word "specialised" because of course there are some questions which will be over the boundary, as it were, between the two countries. Such questions as the desirability of a blackout, a warning system, or what the warning system should be, will presumably apply equally to both countries. It would fall within the special province of the Home Secretary in England to deal with such problems and, subject to that, the Secretary of State for Scotland would deal with the specialised functions in Scotland. As yet, of course, nothing is fixed or certain. The matter is still being worked out, but that is what I apprehend would be the position in Scotland.
  LORD CLYDESMUIR: Will the noble and learned Viscount forgive my interrupting him? The anxiety I expressed was that the lessons learned from the last war should be fully taken into account in working out the new scheme. In Scotland, we worked our way through to a satisfactory situation by the end of the last war, but not before there had been a period when a good many differences were apparent. I hope that the lessons learned will be taken into account.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if, in fact, Scotsmen have learned lessons, and are in agreement upon what they have learned, I should be the last person in the world to disregard such lessons!

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  Those, I think, are all the general observations which I have to make. We shall, of course, be very ready to consider detailed provisions and detailed matters when we come to deal with the different clauses of this measure. But we are all at one in this matter. There is no question of any lack of enthusiasm on the part of the Government or anything of that sort. One feels great regret that at this stage we should have to consider this topic—as, I am sure, do all noble Lords and everyone else. But in that we have to
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  consider it, we must see that we make the best possible job we can of civil defence, having regard to all the calls upon our man-power and other difficulties. I am grateful for the observations which your Lordships have made, and I can assure you that they will all be duly considered.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  House adjourned at five minutes past six o'clock.