Sitting of 14 April 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PETITION (PRICE CONTROLS)
Mr. Platts-Mills: I have here a Petition from the citizens and workers in the Borough of Finsbury which I desire to present to this House. It draws attention to the steady increase in the cost of living, particularly in relation to food, clothing and fuel, which adds such burdens to the lives of ordinary people at a time when profits are reaching new heights. I recite the Prayer of the Petition, which is as follows:
Wherefore your Petitioners, pray your Honourable House that the system of controls should be more strictly enforced so as to bring down prices at the expense of profits, and your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray."
Mr. Gallacher: I can support that wholeheartedly.
Petition to lie upon the Table.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  UNIVERSITY OF SHEFFIELD (LANDS) BILL (By Order)
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Volunteer Reserve (Aircraft)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for Air what types of aircraft are used by the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve; and what types will be introduced in the future.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Arthur Henderson): Tiger Moth and Anson aircraft are being used by the
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    R.A.F.V.R. The Tiger Moth will be replaced by the Chipmunk, but there is no present intention of changing the Anson, which is used to train signallers and navigators.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider this satisfactory and will he try to give these men Service types of aircraft, even though they are loaned from regular units, for week-end training, so that they may be trained for defence?
    Mr. Henderson: As I have indicated, it is our intention to move over to Chipmunks, but I must remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the great majority of the pilots of this country, who are second to none in their quality, were trained originally in the machines to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has referred.
    Wing-Commander Millington: Would my right hon. and learned Friend say whether it is the intention of the Government to put at the disposal of Reserve Command operational aircraft so that it will be in a position to train men for the defence of this country? Surely, it is not satisfactory for us to contemplate being defended by Chipmunks?
    Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. What I said was that the training would take place in the Chipmunk instead of the Tiger Moth, as at present, but that does not mean that the Tiger Moth is an inferior machine.

    Accident, Hendon
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Secretary of State for Air if compensation will be paid for property damaged and personal injuries caused by the R.A.F. Anson aircraft crash at Hendon on 9th February.
    Mr. A. Henderson: Yes, Sir.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that the Anson aircraft crash at Hendon on 9th February has been proved to have been caused partly by an error in judgment on the part of the pilot, but primarily by faulty traffic control; whether, as the airfield is used as a training ground for pilots, he will give an assurance that further mistakes will not occur causing disasters in the built-up area

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    adjacent to the airfield; and, in view of these dangers, if he will reconsider releasing the airfield for housing.
    Mr. A. Henderson: The system of air traffic control in use at Hendon is the same as at other Royal Air Force stations, and so far as faulty air traffic control was the cause of the accident on the 9th February it was due to a mistake on the part of an individual officer. An examination is being made to see whether further supervision or other similar measures are required. There is no reason to suppose that the continued use of the airfield is an undue risk either to R.A.F. pilots or to civilians in the Hendon district. In present circumstances, therefore, I regret that it is not possible for the R.A.F. to relinquish this airfield.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: Is my right hon. Friend aware that on three sides of the airfield there are small houses, the gardens of which run down to the fences, and, therefore, if anything goes wrong there is likely to he a serious accident at that particular airfield?
    Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. I do not think that the cause of the accident in question was aggravated by the existence of the houses around the airfield.

    Water Main, Allerton Park (Purchase)
    Mr. Yorkasked the Secretary of State for Air why the Air Ministry will not accept the offer of the Harrogate Water Committee to purchase the water main which runs to Allerton Park; and whether he is aware that this refusal is hampering food production.
    Mr. A. Henderson: The delay in settling this matter is regrettable. The offer which the Harrogate Council have made is considered too low, but I have given instructions that the question of valuation should be re-examined, if necessary by an independent valuer. I should add, however, that the council have been informed more than once that, if they wish, they can make connections to the main to run water to neighbouring farms.
    Mr. York: Is the Secretary of State aware that this dilly-dallying has been going on now for two years? Is he further aware that this squabble over valuation originated in a mistake in the Depart-
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    ment? Will the right hon and learned Gentleman now order a decision to be made by the Department?
    Mr. Henderson: According to my information, if there has been any dilly-dallying it has been on both sides. As regards the last point of the hon. Member's Question, I stated in my reply that I propose to have this main valued. I prefer to wait until I have received the report.
    Mr. York: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that he or his predecessor, gave almost exactly the same answer two years ago? Unless I get satisfaction I shall have to consider further action.
    Mr. Henderson: I repeat, that responsibility for the delay lies in both quarters and not solely in my Department.
    Mr. York: I deny that statement. I beg to give notice, Mr. Speaker, that I will raise this matter upon the Adjournment.

    Discharge by Purchase (Overseas Drafts)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air, if, in view of the fact that details of discharge from His Majesty's Forces by purchase have been now announced, but not yet incorporated in an A.M.O. and circulated to units, he will allow airmen intending to apply for such discharge to be held back from overseas drafts until the necessary formalities are complete; and if, in particular, he will withdraw 640800 Corporal E. G. Rowland, Bomb Ballistic Unit, R.A.F. Station, Martlesham Heath, Woodbridge, from a draft due to sail for the Far East on 15th April.
    Mr. A. Henderson: The Air Ministry order giving details of discharge by purchase will be issued in about a week's time. Until the order is issued, airmen, including Corporal Rowland, who have applied for discharge by purchase, will be held back from overseas drafts.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Accident, Heathrow (Inquiry)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation when he expects to publish

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    the findings of the inquiry into the Sabena air accident, which took place at Heathrow on 2nd March, 1948.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): The investigation is still proceeding. The question of publication, when the report becomes available, is a matter for consultation with the Belgian authorities, in accordance with internationally agreed procedure.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that the long delay in completing these reports is giving concern to pilots?
    Mr. Lindgren: Yes, Sir. The investigations are rather detailed, and quite a considerable portion of them have had to take place in Belgium. They will be carried out as quickly as possible.

    Air Collision Casualties, Berlin (Notification)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation upon whom was the responsibility for notification of next-of-kin of casualties in the B.E.A.C. aircraft disaster at Berlin; if he is aware that in at least one case no official notification was made until the third day after the accident; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Lindgren: Responsibility for notifying the next-of-kin of casualties rested with the British European Airways Corporation. I am informed by the Corporation that action was taken immediately on the day of the accident to notify either the next-of-kin directly or, in a few cases where this seemed the more expedient, through persons closely associated with the next-of-kin. If the hon. Member will be good enough to give me details of the case he has in mind in which official notification was delayed, I shall be happy to ask British European Airways Corporation to look into it.
    Mr. Beswick: I did, in the first place, inform the Department of the particular case, which concerns Mrs. Cough. Will the Minister say to whom notification was made in that case?
    Mr. Lindgren: Yes, Sir. My information is that notification in that case was made to the father-in-law at 18.00 hours on the day of the accident.
    Mr. Beswick: Notification ought to have been made to the husband. In view of the great distress caused in this particular case, can the Minister assure the House that he will see that every assistance is given to the relatives?
    Mr. Lindgren: Most certainly, Sir.

    B.O.A.C. (Constellation Base)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation why the B.O.A.C. Constellation base has not yet been moved to this country.
    Mr. Lindgren: Because of the amount of constructional work necessary to prepare the new base at Filton.
    Mr. Beswick: Is it not the case that many hundreds of thousands of dollars are being lost while this base remains at Montreal? Will not my hon. Friend agree that it could have been possible to improvise a base in this country, and will he say why that has not been done?
    Mr. Lindgren: Improvisation is not possible in this country, but a considerable amount of work has to be done at Filton and it is being taken in hand as quickly as possible. As I have already informed the House in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper), we hope that the base will be ready by the end of the year.
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: Why is it that, in similar circumstances, the K.L.M. organisation were able to find facilities for servicing Constellations in a similar period? Why is it not possible for us to do as well as a foreign company?
    Mr. Lindgren: It depends upon the ground and the hangarage available and needed. I have heard of the K.L.M base but I have not had the privilege of seeing it.
    Mr. William Shepherd: If these buildings have to be constructed, why are they not being constructed at Heathrow instead of at Filton, where they will involve thousands of dead miles?
    Mr. Lindgren: There is little actual new construction at Filton. It is adaptation of the Brabazon base which was being built for the Brabazon production.
    Mr. Beswick: Will my hon. Friend see that a decision is made in this matter as quickly as possible? Can he also take into account the opinions of many people that it is possible to improvise here as quickly as elsewhere.
    Mr. Lindgren: Yes Sir, but a great deal depends not only upon the base, but upon the delivery of Stratocruisers, which are replacing Constellations upon the North Atlantic route. Such an improvisation would make it necessary to cancel the Constellation service.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: If it is not possible to improvise buildings, will the Minister see that the aircraft are brought back right away and serviced in the open, to save hard currency in the summer months?
    Mr. Lindgren: I am advised against doing that.

    Aircraft Types
    Mr. Beswickasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation, whether any decision has yet been made about aircraft types to be used by B.O.A.C. over the next five to seven years.
    Mr. Lindgren: It is the policy of His Majesty's Government that the air transport corporations should, so far as practicable, fly British. Pending the introduction into service of the newer British types, such as the D.H. Comet and the Bristol M.R.E., it is the present intention that British Overseas Airways Corporation's fleet should be supplemented and, as appropriate, replaced by Solents, Tudors, Hermes and, in the case of the North Atlantic, Stratocruisers.
    Mr. Beswick: As the eventual types to which my hon. Friend has referred are not to be available for five or six years, does he not agree that if we are to use interim types for that period it will inevitably mean the loss of £7 million or £8 million for each of those five or six years?
    Mr. Lindgren: I cannot commit myself to the figures mentioned by my hon. Friend, but it undoubtedly will be a very severe handicap on the financial side of the Corporations.
    Mr. Crawley: Is my hon. Friend aware that the calculations made by the Corporation for the use of Canadian aircraft would actually earn dollars in the next five years? Does his answer mean that that proposition has been finally turned down?
    Mr. Lindgren: No, Sir, it does not mean that the proposition has been finally turned down. A certain representation was made in this House in the course of the recent Debate, and that representation is being considered by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Beswick: Am I to understand that the Minister's original reply was therefore not, in fact, strictly accurate, and that the Ministry are now considering allowing the purchase of economic aircraft for the period of the next five years?
    Mr. Lindgren: No, Sir. My hon. Friend asked a Question, and I have given the answer, in so far as the present policy of His Majesty's Government is concerned. The Corporations and, to a degree, Members of this House in Debate, made certain suggestions for consideration, and that consideration is now taking place.
    Wing-Commander Millington: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the only hope of running these Corporations economically is to have a strict measure of rationalisation of types? One of the worst diseases of the British Air Corporations is the multiplicity of types. That seems to suggest lack of a properly coordinated policy.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: In view of the Government's difficulties and the large sums of money which are being lost, would the Minister recommend the setting up of a Royal Commission to consider this matter and make recommendations to the Government?
    Mr. Lindgren: I would like notice of that Question.
    Mr. Beswick: If a decision is pending about the purchase of economic types for use in the next five years, may I ask who is to make the decision and where the hold-up in making that decision now lies?
    Mr. Lindgren: My hon. Friend should put such a Question on the Paper.
    Mr. Beswick: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has had to give, I beg to give notice that I shall take the earliest opportunity of raising this matter on the Adjournment.

    Air Accidents Committee (Newton Report)
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will make a statement on the steps he proposes to take in order to implement the findings of the Newton Report of the investigations into civil air accidents.
    Mr. Lindgren: I am not yet in a position to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) on 17th March last.
    Mr. Cooper: May I ask my hon. Friend if his noble Friend really appreciates the full responsibility that he has in this matter, and that, if he refuses either to adopt or to publish the Newton Report, is it not incumbent upon him to place before the public some alternative?
    Mr. Lindgren: Yes, Sir, that will be done.

  GERMANY

    Scrap (Disposal)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how much scrap in the British zone of Germany has been sold to French firms, how much of this is then re-sold to this country, what percentage of scrap at Langenhagen has been sold, and to what extent the disposal of scrap is being held up because of shortage of lifting equipment.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Sevin): No scrap from the British zone has been sold to French firms, and none, therefore, has been re-sold to this country. None of the scrap in the Langenhagen dump has yet been sold. Shortage of lifting gear is one of the factors delaying the disposal of scrap. The British Authorities are providing scrap dealers with all possible assistance to overcome this.
    Mr. Sorensen: May I ask whether, in view of the fact that this scrap would be extremely useful in the British zone of
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    Germany or in this country, something can be done to expedite the provision of lifting gear so that this chimp may be reduced?
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir. That matter is being dealt with at the present moment. We have sent a special commission out there. Steps are being taken to deal with the matter.
    Mr. Gallacher: May I ask whether Protocol "M" is included among the scrap?
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much scrap is being moved from Germany to this country now?
    Mr. Bevin: I must have notice of that Question.
    Mr. M. Philips Price: Are the German authorities causing difficulties in connection with the collection of scrap?
    Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. There is the whole question of currency, lifting gear, transport and all sorts of problems. The Ministry of Supply have been asked by us to look into it. Steps are being taken to deal with it.

    British Military Governor (Speech)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if General Sir Brian Robertson, British Military Governor in Germany, consulted him before making his speech at the Landtag, Provisional Parliament, of North Rhine-Westphalia on 7th April.
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that on the same day on which this speech was made, he deprecated in this House speeches by generals, and is he aware that this speech by this General was made on the assumption that Protocol "M" was genuine and not a forgery?
    Mr. Bevin: I did not deprecate speeches by generals. I was asked a question with regard to a speech alleged to have been made by the C.I.G.S. and whether I accepted responsibility on behalf of His Majesty's Government for our occupation of Germany. I said that the control of this business was in the hands of the civil Government here. I adhere to that. That

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    was the answer. With regard to the speech made by General Robertson, I approve that speech. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] He is the Military Governor, and I think he was quite right in what he said.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Did not General Sir Brian Robertson make almost as good a speech as the right hon. Gentleman himself would have done, and has it not made a most admirable impression throughout Germany?
    Mr. Bevin: He probably made a better one than I would have done.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the fact that the previous day the Foreign Secretary said that it was not for the military to decide policy, but for the civil authorities, why was that speech not made in this House instead of being made by a military officer in Germany?
    Mr. Bevin: It was not made by General Robertson as a General. He is the military Governor under the Military Government of Germany and it was—
    Mr. Gallacher: It was British policy.
    Mr. Bevin: Just possess your soul in patience if you cannot keep your tongue still. The speech was approved by His Majesty's Government, and General Robertson, in that case, in Germany, to Germans, was our mouthpiece.

    Factories (Dismantling)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many factories still remain to be dismantled in the British zone of Germany under the level of industry plan.
    Mr. Bevin: Two hundred and twenty-three plants.
    Mr. Stokes.: Is it or is it not the fact that in the American zone dismantling of all but purely war plants has ceased, and in view of the fact that our programme means that 30, 000 men at this end are destroying work for 50,000 men, is it not time that this policy was reconsidered, especially in view of the changed circumstances in Europe?
    Mr. Bevin: When we enter into agreements with other countries, including our Allies, I do not think it is wise, through
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    the mere momentary change of circumstances, unilaterally to alter our obligations. We have to remember that Germany over-ran France, Belgium, Holland and other countries, and if the hon. Gentleman is willing to excuse that and not make any reparations, I am afraid His Majesty's Government cannot agree.
    Mr. Stokes: But is my right hon. Friend aware that that really is not the point at all? Is he aware that what he is actually doing is destroying things for which in due course this country will have to pay to rebuild?

  JAPAN (ANGLO-AMERICAN ECONOMIC POLICY)
  Mr. Stanley Prescottasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any arrangements have been made, or are proposed to be made, for consultations between His Majesty's Government and the United States Government arising from the recent Draper Economic Mission to Japan for the formulation of a common economic policy for Japanese industry.
  Mr. Bevin: I understand that General Draper, the United States Under-Secretary for the Army, and a number of other representatives of the United States Government, have recently visited Japan for the primary purpose of investigating the economic situation. If, as a result of their reports, the United States Government should wish to propose any important changes in economic policy for Japan, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the other Allied Governments concerned will, no doubt, be consulted.
  Mr. William Teeling: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether there is any possibility of either ourselves or the Dominions sending economic missions to Japan at the present time or in the near future?
  Mr. Bevin: I do not think there would be any objection to that. I have not heard of it.
  Mr. John Paton: May I ask my right hon. Friend if he will take steps to place in the Library a copy of the Draper. Report as soon as it is available?
  Mr. Bevin: Certainly, Sir.

  PALESTINE

    Zionist Authorities (Future Relations)
    Mr. Pickthornasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what relations he has, and intends to have after i5th May, with Zionist authorities; and what action he has taken, or intends taking in regard to British subjects and to the Irgun's declaration that non-Arabs found fighting against Jewish forces will not be accorded belligerent rights but will be executed.
    Mr. Bevin: It is provided in Article 4 of the Mandate for Palestine that an appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for certain specific purposes. The organisation known as the Jewish Agency for Palestine has in the past been recognised as the appropriate agency for the purposes of this Article. The Mandate, however, will come to an end on 15th May. The special status hitherto accorded to the Jewish Agency for Palestine will consequently terminate at the same time. Future relations between His Majesty's Government and Zionist authorities will depend upon the course of events in Palestine. I have not seen the declaration referred to in the second part of the Question.
    Mr. Pickthorn: As to the last part of the answer, is the House to take it that that negative answer means that inquiries have been made about whether the effective Jewish authorities—the Zionist organisation or the Irgun—have made such declarations and that such inquiries have been fruitless? —
    Mr. Bevin: No, Sir.
    Mr. Pickthorn: —or does the Foreign Office not know whether such declarations have been made or not? Cannot it find out?
    Mr. Bevin: I have not seen the declaration to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I will look it up and see what it contains.

    Arabs (Arms Supplies)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that Fawzi el Kawukji is using new-type British 25 pounders and armoured cars in Palestine, and that these are being brought in from neighbouring Arab States; and
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    what steps he proposes to take to stop the supply of further arms to these Arab States.
    The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): My right hon. Friend has no information that Arabs are using British 25 pounders in Palestine, or that armoured cars used have been brought in from neighbouring Arab States. The second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. Janner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in a very reputable paper, with which he is very well acquainted—
    Hon. Members: Which paper?
    Mr. Janner: —the "Daily Herald" —it was categorically stated that these 25 pounders were being brought in? Are they being used for the bombardment of Jerusalem, and what does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do to stop the inflow from the Arab States?
    Mr. McNeil: Of course, I have no wish to make any criticism of the "Daily Herald" report, but I must say emphatically that our experts on the ground have examined that artillery and have found that they are not British 25 pounders.

    British Forces (Defence)
    Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Minister of Defence if our forces in Palestine have instructions not to shoot unless and until they are actually attacked by force; and what instructions have been given them in the matter of self-defence.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): No general instruction of this kind has been given. As I stated in answer to the right hon Gentleman, the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) on 24th February, the responsible military authorities in Palestine have full powers to take any necessary steps for the protection of our Forces there, or for enabling them to discharge their duties. Our troops have, and always have had, full discretion to use their weapons in self-defence.
    Mr. Reid: Is it correct to say that the Government have issued no instructions in this matter to the authorities in Palestine?
    Mr. Alexander: The military authorities have their ordinary instructions and

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    a responsible commanding officer like General Macmillan knows entirely what his duty is, and has our full support.

  WORLD RECOVERY PLANS
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will instruct his economic and planning advisers to prepare a world recovery plan, complementary to the European Recovery Plan, preparatory to consulting the Governments of the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R., with a view to securing their co-operation in such a plan.
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. The preparation and study of plans to promote economic recovery on a world-wide scale are undertaken by the United Nations through its Economic and Social Council and other agencies. His Majesty's Government are closely associated in the work of these agencies, which form the most appropriate channel for international co-operation in this field.
  Mr. Hughes: Will the Foreign Secretary urge our representatives on the United Nations organisation to support the idea of a world recovery plan in order to get a new approach to the settlement of our international difficulties?
  Mr. Bevin: We work very hard in that field. We are members of the International Labour Organisation, the Food and Agricultural Organisation, the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the International Monetary Fund and the International Trade Organisation, and His Majesty's Government have done all they can to make these successful. Unhappily, none of those organisations is complete.

  BRITISH COUNCIL (OVERSEAS EXPENDITURE)
  Mr. William Shepherdasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amount of money spent overseas annually by the British Council and the information services attached to the Embassies and Legations.
  Mr. Bevin: The current annual rate of expenditure overseas by the British Council is £1,375,000 and by the Information
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  sections of the Foreign Service is £1,100,000.
  Mr. Shepherd: Does the right hon. Gentleman really feel this expenditure to be justified in view of the difficult balance of payments position, and could it not be materially reduced without interfering with the really vital side of this service?
  Mr. Bevin: I think the money is well spent. If Great Britain is to be kept on the map, we cannot leave the world to everybody else. This has been really wisely controlled. I think it is absolutely essential to get over to the world at present information as to what we are doing, our way of life, our democratic institutions, our universities and all the rest of our forms.

  BRITISH TERRITORIES, SOUTH AMERICA (FOREIGN CLAIMS)
  Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any further statement to make on the claims by Argentina and Chile to British Falkland Island Dependencies and by Guatemala to British Honduras.
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir.
  Mr. Gammans: Has the right hon. Gentleman made it perfectly clear to the Governments of the South American Republics that we do not regard the title to these territories as a matter for discussion?
  Mr. Bevin: I have made it quite clear that if the titles are challenged, I am willing to go to the International Court, and that position still stands.
  Mr. Blackburn: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether some Argentinians and Chileans are still trespassing in that territory?
  Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, I think they are still there.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: Are we to take it that these unilateral acts of trespass have gone completely unremedied so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned?
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir.
  Mr. Gallacher: America will push you, and no mistake.

  EASTERN EUROPE (ARMED FORCES)
  Mr. T. Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent he estimates that military Forces in excess of those allowed by the Peace Treaties are now being maintained in Hungary and Bulgaria; and what action he proposes to take.
  Mr Bevin: With regard to Hungary, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Major Beamish) on Monday, 12th April. The Bulgarian Government have officially informed the United Nations that the total strength of the Bulgarian Armed Forces has been brought into conformity with the Peace Treaty requirements. I am endeavouring to verify this information.
  Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether the Soviet representatives in Bulgaria and Hungary have accepted His Majesty's Government's invitation to join in requesting the Governments of these two ex-enemy countries to provide full details regarding the strengths, training and equipment of all military and semi-military units and organisations in their respective countries and also the invitation to give similar details regarding such units and organisations composed of prisoners of war still retained by the Soviet Union;
  (2) if he has now received information from the Roumanian Government regarding the strengths, training and equipment of all military and semi-military units and organisations in Roumania, as well as full details of the strengths, training and equipment of military and semi-military units and organisations composed of Roumanian prisoners of war still in the Soviet Union.
  Mr. Bevin: The Soviet representatives in Bulgaria and Hungary were not in fact requested to join in asking these two ex-enemy Governments to provide details about their military strengths, as had been intended, because the Bulgarian Government published the strength of their armed forces, and the Hungarian Government gave His Majesty's Representative the information and assurance mentioned in the reply to the hon. and gallant Member on 12th April. Though
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  promised, no definite information has yet been received from the Roumanian Government. As regards the last parts of the two Questions, I have no knowledge of the prisoners of war of the three ex-enemy countries in the Soviet Union and have not sought it.
  Major Beamish: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures he has given to the House for the armed forces' strength in these three countries are very likely a considerable under-estimate, and that a completely false picture is given by giving the figures for the armed forces in isolation from the figures of police and secret police forces in receipt of military training, or in isolation from the prisoners of war from these three countries who are now in the Soviet Union receiving military training?
  Mr. Bevin: Yes, but I have to keep to the Article in the Treaty; I am not permitted to inquire into the police and other sections.
  Mr. Mack: In view of the fact that the Bulgarian Government have made a definite declaration that the strength of their armed forces is less than that permitted under the Peace Treaties, and that the matter is being investigated, is it nor vitiating the situation to cast unwarranted assumptions upon military police and others not concerned in the Question?
  Major Beamish: I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

  WESTERN EUROPE (CONSULTATIVE COUNCIL)
  Major Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made towards the creation of the Consultative Council, as foreshadowed in Article VII of the Treaty of Economic, Social and Cultural Collaboration and Collective Self-Defence between Great Britain, Belgium, France, Luxem-bourgh and the Netherlands.
  Mr. Bevin: Since 17th March when the five Foreign Ministers held two meetings, their Deputies have met twice in Brussels, and the Foreign Ministers themselves will

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  take the opportunity offered by the Committee for European Economic Cooperation Conference in Paris on 17th April to have a further meeting.
  Major Beamish: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Consultative Council will be fully operative?
  Mr. Bevin: I have not discussed this; there are lots of things going on at the present moment.

  UNITED NATIONS (SECURITY INFORMATION)
  Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he intends making representations to the United Nations organisation with a view to safeguarding from dangers similar to those visualised in the Prime Minister's recent announcement about the Civil Service any information provided by His Majesty's Government to the United Nations which is vital to the security of Great Britain.
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir.
  Major Legge-Bourke: Can we then have an assurance from the Foreign Secretary that no information vital to this country is ever sent to the United Nations Secretariat?
  Mr. Bevin: No, that is not so. The point is that I am not interfering with the United Nations organisation.

  FALKLAND ISLANDS (SHEEP)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many sheep are annually destroyed in the Falkland Islands for lack of export facilities; and whether he has any plans for providing tinning or refrigerating plant.
  Mr. McNeil: I have been asked by my right hon. Friend to reply on his behalf in his absence in New York for the Special Assembly of the United Nations.
  Sheep are bred in the Falklands principally for their wool. Because of shipping difficulties and the absence as yet of processing facilities, the carcasses of the 40 or 5o thousand sheep that are killed annually for tallow and skins are at
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  present disposed of locally. As was stated in my right hon. Friend's reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea (Commander Noble) on 10th February, discussions are now proceeding for an improvement of the facilities for export.
  Mr. Keeling: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the 40,000 or 50,000 carcasses would make a very useful addition to the mutton supply of this country?
  Mr. McNeil: No one has any doubt upon that, least of all my right hon. Friend, but, of course, the sheep cannot swim.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: If His Majesty's Government cannot find them, is it possible that the representatives of Argentine and Chile are disguised in some way?

  GOLD COAST

    Press Restrictions
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent suppression or restriction on the Press now operates in the Gold Coast; and when it is expected that such restrictions will be modified or withdrawn.
    Mr. McNeil: The Governor has removed, with effect from 8th April, the controls on the local Press which he had previously imposed temporarily by exercise of his emergency powers.

    Labour Situation
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to absorb the unemployed in the Gold Coast; how many of the unemployed are trained or semi-trained industrially; and whether a portion of the cocoa marketing surplus will be devoted to initiating or expanding industries in West Africa.
    Mr. McNeil: The Gold Coast is predominantly an agricultural country, and the labour situation is, in general, one of seasonal under-employment, except for a small nucleus of unemployed ex-Service men and others. The development projects which are being planned and
    pushed forward are designed to meet this situation. No figures other than for ex-Service men are immediately available to show the numbers unemployed or their degree

    961
    of training. The semi-trained ex-Service men now seeking work number 375 clerical workers, 536 motor drivers, 302 nursing orderlies and 1,380 other tradesmen. No fully trained men are idle.
    As regards the last part of the Question, the funds of the Gold Coast Cocoa Marketing Board, by its constitution, must be used for the benefit of the Cocoa Industry and those engaged in it, and are not available for the purpose suggested. The present problem, however, is not one of shortage of finance, but of capital equipment and technical staff.
    Mr. Sorensen: Would my right hon. Friend say when this need is likely to be met, in view of the number of unemployed in the Gold Coast who will have to be reemployed in the future? Is it the intention of His Majesty's Government to develop industries in other parts of the Colonial Empire?
    Mr. McNeil: The Board, as I understand it, has been planning and pushing for the fulfilment of these plans but, as I have said already, the situation as presented to me is that the mass of the unemployment is seasonal and not permanent.

  KENYA (BEEF PRODUCTION)
  Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will consult with the Overseas Food Corporation, the Kenya Meat Marketing Board and representative settlers with a view to developing beef production in the Colony, and, as supplies increase, guaranteeing an export market in the United Kingdom.
  Mr. McNeil: The Government of Kenya are most anxious to stimulate beef production, and consultations with local organisations are now taking place. The danger of rinderpest infection unfortunately prevents the importing of carcase meat from Kenya, but there is a steadily expanding local market. It is hoped that there will be increased production of European farm cattle as a result of the fixing of long-term prices and the introduction of modern methods of slaughtering and processing and for the use of by-products. Every effort is being made to increase the sale of native cattle by auction. An invitation has been sent
  962
  to experts from Southern Rhodesia to visit Kenya this month to advise on various aspects of the question.
  Mr. Hurd: Is the Overseas Food Corporation interested in this development?
  Mr. McNeil: I think that is hardly an appropriate question. As I understand it, until we have satisfied ourselves about this rinderpest infection, there can be no question of importing carcase meat without grave danger to our own stocks.

  EAST AFRICA

    Trade Preferences
    Mr. Hollisasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why instructions have been given to the governments of East African Colonies to give trade preference to goods from Europe over those from the Dominions.
    Mr. Prescottasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been directed to the widespread concern in Australia over the proposal to give trade preferences in East African Colonies to Italy and Germany; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the instructions given by his Department to the East African Colonies to give Italy, Germany, France, Belgium and Holland trade preference over the Dominions, has aroused widespread anxiety; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy the position.
    Mr. J. H. Hareasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why he has issued instructions which have had the effect of giving Italy preference over the Dominions in trading with the East African Colonies.
    Mr. McNeil: The East African Governments have not been asked to give a general trade preference to goods from Europe over those from the Dominions. They are free to authorise essential imports from all sources, including, naturally, the Commonwealth countries. They have been asked, however, in common with all countries inside the sterling group, to limit the imports of non-essential goods, and under these arrangements they can bring in such imports from the war-shattered countries of Europe, as well as from other Colonial Territories and

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    from the United Kingdom, rather more freely than from the rest of the world. My right hon. Friend is reviewing the extent to which it is still appropriate for Colonial Governments to continue these special arrangements.
    Mr. Hollis: Do I understand that they have not been asked to give any preference at all for goods from Europe over goods from the Dominions, as that was not clear from the answer?
    Mr. McNeil: I would be prepared to say that, as I understand the subject in the Questions, on non-essential goods there is a certain laxity by which licensing might benefit some countries, including the war shattered countries of Europe, but not particularly Germany; but these would only have equal treatment with, for example, the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Hare: Does that mean that at the moment countries like Italy, France, Belgium and Holland are being given preference over our own Dominion territories?
    Mr. McNeil: I am scarcely an expert in this subject, but I understand that would be an enormous simplification of the question. In relation to essential commodities, that would not be true, but in relation to non-essential commodities, it might be true.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some weeks ago I took up this matter with the Colonial Secretary, and was assured that there had been some misunderstanding about the instructions, and that those instructions either had been, or were being, withdrawn?
    Mr. McNeil: As I have indicated, I think there has been a misinterpretation of these instructions, and the Press reports which have been given some currency, are not accurate. There is a sense in which in relation to non-essential imports it might be so, but my right hon. Friend is reviewing even these instructions which relate to non-essential imports.
    Mr. Stanley: It is not a fact, then, that they have already been withdrawn?
    Mr. McNeil: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be so good as to give notice of that question.

    Colonial Service Salaries
    Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has now received the report of the committee reviewing Colonial Service salaries in East Africa; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. McNeil: My right hon. Friend has just received the report in question, but he is not yet able to make any statement in the matter.
    Mr. Hurd: Is the right hon. Gentleman likely to reach a decision in the course of the next few weeks?
    Mr. McNeil: I understand that printing will take some little time, some few weeks, and after that we might expect a decision.

  IRCE PRODUCTION, FAR EAST
  Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether in connection with the intensification of experimental work in the mechanisation of rice production in colonial Far Eastern territories, steps are being taken to convey useful information obtained to those concerned with rice production in other rice growing Far Eastern territories such as China and Siam.
  Mr. McNeil: Yes, Sir. Information of this kind is disseminated through the meetings of liaison officers for all the Far Eastern rice producing countries who meet under the Chairmanship of the Special Commissioner in South-East Asia.
  Mr. Janner: Can my right hon. Friend tell me how the matter is progressing in regard to the two countries as far as the experimental stage is concerned?
  Mr. McNeil: As I have already explained, information is circulated, and, in addition, we are sending specially equipped technical observers to make further studies.

  MALTA (EMIGRANTS)
  Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Maltese emigrants have left the island during the past 12 months; and what are his plans for assisting Maltese emigration to other parts of the Commonwealth.
  Mr. McNeil: My right hon. Friend is informed that 2,662 Maltese emigrants left the Island during the past 12 months. As regards the second half of the Question, responsibility for emigration now rests with the Malta Government which has set up a separate department for this purpose.
  Mr. Gammans: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the shortage of trained labour in different parts of the Empire, including East Africa, and are His Majesty's Government taking all the steps possible to fill these vacancies, not by Italians, but by people from Malta?
  Mr. McNeil: I understand His Majesty's Government are in consultation with the Government of Malta and are willing to consider any practical proposals.

  WEST INDIES

    Tourist Traffic
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he has taken to encourage American tourist ships to visit the islands of the British West Indies.
    Mr. McNeil: The West Indian Colonies are aware of the desirability of encouraging tourist traffic from North America. Various hotel projects are under consideration in the colonies. It has been arranged that United States and Canadian citizens may enter for periods up to six months without visas, and in most colonies without either passports or visas. Representations have been made to the United States Government with a view to the repeal of the 15 per cent. transportation tax on rail, steamship and air tickets to the Caribbean area.
    Mr. Gammans: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is that so few of the American tourist luxury ships out of new York this winter have in fact gone to the British West Indies?

    Teachers, Trinidad (Training Facilities)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the Trinidad Finance Committee have recommended the suspension of work on the teachers training college; what are the existing facilities for training teachers in Trinidad; and whether he is satisfied that they are adequate.
    Mr. McNeil: Work on the Central Teachers Training Institute, which was designed to supply annually 150 trained teachers, has been suspended, owing to lack of funds to meet the heavy increased cost of building. The possibility of using the buildings already constructed is under consideration. There are at present three teachers training colleges in the Colony, from which there will be an annual output of 158 teachers at the end of 1948. As these three colleges were to be closed as soon as the new institute opened, there will be no reduction in the number of trained teachers available, but the other benefits expected from the new institute will be lost.

  UGANDA (TAXATION)
  Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Acting Financial Secretary of Uganda recently announced that the provincial Commissioners considered that the present level of direct and indirect taxation on Africans was most burdensome; and what steps are being taken by the Government of Uganda to share this burden over all sections of the population.
  Mr. McNeil: The opinion quoted by the Acting Financial Secretary was, I understand, expressed by the Provincial Commissioners as an argument against reducing direct taxation on non-natives in Uganda at the present time. It was not a statement of the opinion of the Uganda Government itself. I have no reason to suppose that the burden of taxation is in fact unfairly distributed at present, but I understand that the Governor in Council is considering whether a review of the existing level of direct taxation is required.
  Mr. Skinnard: If in fact the incidence of taxation as between the African and the white population is not unfair, why did the Acting Financial Secretary make that specific remark that the heavy burden fell on the native?
  Mr. McNeil: As I have already indicated, looking at the context, it seems as if it were used as an argument against reducing direct taxation, which has been imposed on the non-native inhabitants of Uganda.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: Does not my right hon. Friend think that there is a case for exemption from taxation altogether of persons with incomes of less than £10 a year, which includes 90 per cent. of the inhabitants of Uganda?
  Mr. McNeil: I am not in a position to comment on the accuracy or otherwise of the figures. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.

  BRITISH GUIANA (MINING PROSPECTING LICENCES)
  Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many mining prospecting licences in British Guiana have been granted to American interests, British firms and other interests, respectively; and what steps are being taken to encourage British investments in this territory.
  Mr. McNeil: The Governor of British Guiana is being asked to furnish this information, and it will be passed on to my hon. Friend when available.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Potatoes (Rationing)
    Colonel Ropnerasked the Minister of Food whether he has any statement to make with regard to the rationing of potatoes.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill): My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to maintain the present rate of allocation until the end of April, when the position will again be reviewed.
    Colonel Ropner: Does the hon. Lady recall that the information I had some weeks ago was in regard to the termination of potato rationing? She, or her right hon. Friend, gave an assurance that an announcement would be made this week as regards the date when potato rationing would cease. Can she now say when an announcement will be made?
    Dr. Summerskill: It is very difficult to make an announcement now because, as the hon. and gallant Member will realise,
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    there is still time for a bad frost between now and the middle of May.
    Colonel Ropner: If I put down the Question in the middle of May, will the hon. Lady be able to answer?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes.
    Mr. Butcher: Is the hon. Lady aware that the only potatoes available in working class districts are new potatoes at 1s. 2d. a lb.
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir.

    Seasonal Allowances (Agricultural Workers)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Food if he has now concluded his discussions with the T.U.C. regarding an extension through the year of the seasonal allowances of extra food to farm workers who have no canteen facilities; and if he will arrange for these extra rations to be drawn direct by farm workers or their wives.
    Dr. Summerskill: We are still discussing the question of seasonal allowances with the Advisory Committee of the T.U.C.

    Feedingstuffs
    Mr. Spenceasked the Minister of Food the tonnage of each variety of feedingstuffs, including maize and coarse grains, allocated to Great Britain by the I.E.F.C. for the year 1947.
    Dr. Summerskill: The only feedingstuff subject to allocation by I.E.F.C. is oil-cake. The United Kingdom pro visional allocation of imported oilcake for 1947 was 288,200 tons.
    Mr. Spence: Can the hon. Lady clear up the point whether our allocations of oilcake control our total purchases or if we are able to buy over and above our allocation from such countries as do not belong to the I.E.F.C.?
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. Where a commodity is allocated it is simply an authorisation to purchase, and we are expected to keep within the limit.
    Mr. Spenceasked the Minister of Food the tonnage of each variety of feedingstuffs, including oilcake, maize and coarse grains, received by Great Britain

    969
    during 1947, showing the countries of origin.
    Dr. Summerskill: As the reply contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

    Commodity.

    Quantity Long Tons.

    Country of Origin.

    *Maize

    480,707

    Argentina, Brazil and United States of America

    Barley

    112,944

    Argentina and Australia

    *Oats

    105,913

    Canada and United States of America

    Bran and Pollards

    74,245

    Argentina

    Rice Meal

    48,803

    Burma

    Oilcakes

    315,917

    Mainly from Argentina with smaller quantities from East Africa, West Africa, China and Burma

    Locust Beans

    20,115

    Cyprus, Crete and Portugal

    Meat meal (with whale meat and bone meal)

    14,068

    South Georgia and British and Norwegian floating factories

    Other feedingstuffs

    38,910

    Including—

    Dried potatoes from United States of America

    Mandioca meal from Brazil

    Herring meal from Iceland

    Maize Gluten Feed from Argentina, Holland and Belgium

    Total

    1,211,622

    * Includes imported maize and oats used for human and industrial purposes as follows:

    Maize … 553,000 tons for starch, glucose and cereal breakfast foods

    Oats … 80,000 tons for oatmeal milling

    Fried Fish Shop Licence, Hales
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that the village of Hales in the county of Norfolk has been urging the granting of a licence for the opening of a fried fish shop for ten months; and if, in view of the need for such a facility in this agricultural district and the widespread desire which has been expressed for the granting of such a licence, he will now reconsider his previous decision.
    Dr. Summerskill: Oils and fats are still as scarce as they were ten months ago when the reasons for not granting a licence were fully explained to the hon. Member.
    Brigadier Medlicott: Is the hon. Lady aware that these shops in the country are often the only equivalent of the cafes and restaurant feeding houses which are available in the towns, and that the lack of these amenities is one of the factors which accelerates the drift into the towns? Could she not make the very slight concession needed to grant at least a limited number of licences in these cases?
    Following is the reply:
    The quantity of coarse grains and animal feedingstuffs imported into the United Kingdom during the year 1947 is as follows:
    Dr. Summerskill: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member has forgotten that there are only 300 people in Hales, and that there are two fried fish shops a mile and a half away.

    Sardines
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware of the shortage of sardines in the shops; and what prospects are there of remedying this at any early date.
    Dr. Summerskill: know there has been a shortage recently. As the result of further purchases a substantial quantity has been released for the current rationing period. These supplies are now in the shops and a further large release will be made in two months' time.

    Sweet Ration
    Mr. Dc la Béreasked the Minister of Food whether he will consider placing the sweet ration on a money basis instead of weight, to enable those who wish to avail themselves of sweets suitable to their requirements, with special regard to the needs of children.
    Dr. Summerskill: No, Sir. The present wide range of prices would make such a suggestion impracticable.
    Mr. De la Bére: Is the Minister aware that there is a large surplus stock indeed of boiled sweets in the country, and is she further aware that if there is a hot summer these sweets will deteriorate? Why not take the sweets off the ration altogether and let the children have some?
    Dr. Summerskill: If the hon. Member had attended the House on Monday he would perhaps have heard the announcement of my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. De la Bére: In view of the fact that there are ample sweets in the country to give an extra ration, I shall raise the matter at the earliest opportunity. It is monstrous.

    Documents (Witnesses)
    Mr. John Morrisonasked the Minister of Food whether he will extend the list of designated persons who may witness signatures to documents that may be required by local food offices, particularly so as to facilitate such witnessing in rural areas.
    Dr. Summerskill: There is no restricted list of people who may witness signatures to documents that may be required by local food offices. The responsible persons named on the documents are given as examples, for guidance only, and the signatures of witnesses of comparable status are accepted.

    Australian Cricket Team (Rations)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Food whether the Australian cricket team who are arriving here shortly to take part in the Cricket Test matches will receive the same food rations as those to be allotted to competitors taking part in the Olympic Games.
    Dr. Summerskill: No Sir, the circumstances are very different.

  BEER (SUPPLIES)
  Mr. M. Philips Priceasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the increase in quantity and strength of beer which has been promised for the Midlands is causing dissatisfaction in other
  972
  parts of the country, like the Forest of Dean, where similar promises have not been made and where the supply of beer has been and still is short; and whether he will see to it that the supply of beer is distributed in the country as evenly as possible.
  Dr. Summerskill: No promises have been made that there will be an alteration in the strength or quantity of beer available in any particular area. I am satisfied the brewers do their best to spread supplies of beer as evenly as possible. So soon as additional raw materials are available my right hon. Friend will consider how they can best be used to remedy any inequalities.
  Mr. Somerville Hastings: May I ask my hon. Friend whether there has been any appreciable decrease in absenteeism in the Forest of Dean lately?
  Dr. Summerskill: Perhaps my hon. Friend will ask my hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Philips Price).

  CYPRUS (JEWISH REFUGEE CAMPS)
  Mr. McAdamasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the estimated cost, per month, to the Palestine Government of maintaining the Jewish refugee camps in Cyprus; and who will be responsible for meeting that cost when the present Government in Palestine ceases to function.
  Mr. McNeil: The estimated monthly cost of the camps, during the past five months, is £150,000. His Majesty's Government regard expenditure on these camps as a responsibility of the Government of Palestine, and this liability will have to be taken into account in winding up the affairs of the Palestine Government.
  Mr. McAdam: Does that mean that the British Government will take over the responsibility at present discharged by the Palestine Government?
  Mr. McNeil: I am not sure that I understand my hon. Friend. It does mean that His Majesty's Government will see that what is due to them is paid.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Can the right hon. Gentleman enlighten us a little further about these people in Cyprus,

  973
  which is a part of the British Empire, I understand? Will the Palestine Government, which will not be a government within the British Empire, have any authority in Cyprus, or will these people be quickly shipped back to Palestine?
  Mr. McNeil: These illegal immigrants have been steadily shipped from Cyprus to Palestine, and that operation is continuing.
  Mr. McAdamasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of Jewish illegal emigrants to Palestine now detained in Cyprus.
  Mr. McNeil: The number on 7th April was 25,661.

  NYASALAND (LOAN)
  Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any statement to make regarding the financial relations between the Nyasaland Government and His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. McNeil: It has been agreed that the Nyasaland Government shall assume immediately a portion of the liability arising from the East African Guaranteed Loan which was raised in 1932–34 for the purpose of building the Zambesi Bridge, and developing the road and railway system in the Protectorate. The net deficit in the servicing of this loan has hitherto been met by an annual grant-in-aid from the United Kingdom Exchequer, amounting approximately to £140,000 per annum. Under the new arrangement the Nyasaland Government will provide approximately £40,000 per annum towards this deficit in each of the five years beginning 1st April, 1948, and at the end of this period the position will be reviewed. During this period the control previously exercised by the Treasury over the finances of the Protectorate will be relaxed.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Retired Personnel (Clerical Duties)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that retired naval men on clerical duties are paid on a lower
    974
    scale than that enjoyed by the general clerical class, in view of the fact that the former are in receipt of a pension; how many are so employed in Monmouth and the rest of the country; what is the difference in rates; and whether it is his intention to amend this arrangement.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): Receipt of naval pensions by members of the pensioner clerk class does not affect their scale of pay. I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of the scale compared with that of the general clerical class. Of the 125 members of the pensioner clerk class employed in the United Kingdom, one is serving in Monmouth. The assimilation of the pensioner clerk class to the general clerical class is under consideration.
    Following are the details:
    Pensioner Clerks—£170 x £10–£280 (plus £78 consolidation addition).
    Senior Pensioner Clerks—£290 x £12—£350 (plus £78 consolidation addition).
    General Clerical Class—£150–£450 consolidated (London rate).
    £140–£430 consolidated (Provincial rate).

    Home Fleet Cruise, West Indies
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is now able to state the approximate cost of the proposed exercises of the Home Fleet in the West Indies; and the amount of liquid fuel which will be consumed.
    The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. John Dugdale): No, Sir. The detailed programme for the cruise of the Home Fleet to the West Indies has not yet been worked out, and the amount of liquid fuel which will be consumed is therefore unknown. I can say, however, that the cost of such fuel, which is the sole factor of additional expense involved in tactical exercises, such as are planned on this occasion, will be carefully considered when the decisions on the programme are made.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the appeals for cutting down Government expenditure which have been made from all parts of the House, will my hon. Friend consider cancelling these exercises—[Hon. MEM-

    975
    BERS: "No."]—in view of the fact that they are an appeasement of the Navy League?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. They are nothing of the kind. We consider them most necessary and we shall continue them.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is "splicing the main-brace" included among the tactical exercises for which liquid fuel will be consumed?

    Hospital, Great Yarmouth
    Squadron-Leader Kinghornasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty for what purpose the Naval Hospital at Great Yarmouth is now used; what acreage the site covers; and what are the numbers of inmates and staff.
    Mr. W. Edwards: The Royal Naval Hospital, Great Yarmouth, is used to accommodate ex-naval, and other ex-Service, mental patients. It covers an area of 18 acres. At present there are 167 inmates and a staff of 74.
    Squadron-Leader Kinghorn: Will not the Admiralty consider using that very fine building for housing some of the 3,000 families in Great Yarmouth who need houses, and could not the inmates and the staff be evacuated to Wellington House, which is now in the hands of the Admiralty, since the Wellington pension was commuted?
    Mr. Edwards: We are always considering things at the Admiralty, I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend, but I am very much afraid that the alternative offered to us in this case is most unsuitable.

    Dartmouth Cadets
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty why naval cadets who will now have an extra term at Dartmouth are to be penalised by the loss of three months basic seniority.
    Mr. Dugdale: The date of a cadet's seniority as a Midshipman will necessarily be deferred under the new arrangements, but the practice does not differ from that adopted in the past, particularly during the war years, when increases or decreases were made in the length of a cadet's training. I would emphasise that when
    976
    the change is introduced, all cadets will be on exactly the same basis as regards deferment of seniority. It should be noted that the time spent in the rank of midshipman has been appreciably reduced in recent years.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE, EDINBURGH
  Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchisonasked the Postmaster-General when it is proposed to relax the present restriction whereby a person applying for the installation of a telephone in the Edinburgh area requires to have such application sponsored by a Government Department or backed by a medical certificate.
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Hobson): As my right hon. Friend stated in his reply to the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Grimston) on 18th December last, the Post Office, in dealing with applications for telephone service, will for some time to come have no alternative but to give preference to certain classes of subscriber for whom service is regarded as essential in the public interest. Other applications are dealt with, broadly in order of date, so far as staff and plant are available. In the Edinburgh area, as elsewhere, applications which are not in the essential categories are sometimes pressed on the ground of national importance or serious illness. In the former type of case the Post Office consults the appropriate Government Department and in the latter asks the applicant for supporting evidence, the simplest form usually being a medical certificate.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Can the hon. Gentleman say how soon the restrictions will be relaxed in Edinburgh and telephones supplied to new applicants?
  Mr. Hobson: That depends entirely on the supply of cable and telephone equipment.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Can the hon. Gentleman give some indication?
  Mr. Mathers: Would it be possible for the Minister to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the categories showing priorities as they are being met, and as it is hoped to meet them, in the Edinburgh area?
  Mr. Hobson: Priorities have already been stated by my right hon. Friend in his speech on the Post Office and Telegraph (Money) Bill and in answer to Questions.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of, Mr. C. S. TAYLOR:
  66. To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the serious breakdown of the telephone service affecting the business section of Brentford, Middlesex; and what steps are being taken to overcome the long delay in remedying the defect which is causing inconvenience and hardship to the local community.
  Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: May I ask for your guidance, Sir, in regard to Question No. 66, which, you will observe, relates to my constituency? In point of fact, this was a matter which I had already taken up with the Postmaster-General, but I wish to ask you whether it is not the normal procedure, if any hon. Member asks a Question about a purely local matter, to inform the hon. Member concerned?
  Mr. Speaker: I understand that the hon. Member would like that Question asked, but the time for asking Questions is finished. The only person who could, if he wished, answer the Question would be the Minister, who could answer it by leave, but that is unusual.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: With great respect, that was not the point to which I was drawing your attention. There is a Question on the Order Paper which has been put clown by the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor) and which
  978
  relates to a local matter concerning my constituency. I was asking whether it is not the normal procedure in such cases for an hon. Member to consult the hon. Member concerned before putting down a Question?
  Mr. Speaker: I do not think that that is a point of Order upon which I can rule. It is perfectly true that hon. Members on one side do not ask Questions about a constituency of an hon. Member on the same side of the House; but I have known it happen that Questions have been asked about an hon. Member's constituency by an hon. Member who did not belong to the same party. As a general rule, one does not do that more often than is necessary.

  GERMANY ("M" PLAN, DOCUMENT)
  Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask whether, in view of the very offensive treatment which my colleague the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) received in this House when he raised the question of the forgery of Protocol "M," there is any possibility of him getting a public apology now that it has been proved that Protocol "M" is a forgery?
  Mr. Speaker: I have no knowledge of what it is to which the hon. Member refers Presumably, it was in Committee and has not yet been reported to me.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House.—[Mr. H. Morrison.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  3.34 P.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I beg to move:
  "That all new Clauses of which notice has been given before the Clause standing in the name of Mr. Sydney Silverman (Suspension of death penalty) be postponed till after the consideration of that Clause."
  This is to carry out the arrangement mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council when Business was announced last Thursday.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Suspension of death penalty.)
    (1) During the continuance in force of this Section, no person shall be sentenced by a court to death for murder; and every enactment requiring a court to pronounce or record a sentence of death in any case of murder shall be construed as requiring the court to sentence the offender to imprisonment for life.
    (2) Nothing in this Section shall affect the provisions of Section fifty-three of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933 (which prohibits the passing of sentence of death against a person under the age of 18 years, and requires the court, in lieu thereof, to sentence him to be detained during His Majesty's Pleasure).
    (3) This Section shall continue in force for a period of five years beginning with the passing of this Act, and shall then expire, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder:
    Provided that if at any time before the expiration of the period aforesaid an Address is presented to His Majesty by each House of Parliament praying that this Session be continued in force without limitation of time or for any extended period specified in the Address, His Majesty may by Order in Council make provision for that purpose; and where any such Order in Council continues this Section for any such extended period, the provisions of this Subsection (including this proviso) shall have effect as if that extended period were substituted for the period of five years mentioned in this Section.
    (4) In the application of this Section to Scotland the reference to sentencing to imprisonment for life shall be construed as a reference to sentencing to penal servitude for life, and for the reference to the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, and Section fifty-three thereof, there shall be substituted a reference to the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act, 1937, and Section fifty-seven thereof.—[Mr. S. Silverman.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    3.35 P.m.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    The purpose of this new Clause is, in general, to give effect to the Report to this House made by a Select Committee appointed by the House many years ago. It does not propose to interfere with the capital penalty in any case except the case of murder. It does not interfere in the least with charges under the Treachery Act, with charges of piracy and with charges of sabotage in Royal Dockyards. All those are considered to be special matters. What we desire to get decided by the House is the general question of principle whether the capital penalty can be inflicted any longer, by this country at this date, in cases of murder in peacetime.
    I would like at once to express the acknowledgments of all of us of the courtesy of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in collaborating in order to secure that the proposed Clause is free from drafting or technical defects, so that, if the House should decide to adopt it, it can be adopted in the form in which it appears, subject to any Amendment which the House might wish to make in it at a later stage. I do not propose to dilate at any length on the merits of this controversy. It would be almost an insult to hon. Members in all parts of the House not to assume that almost all of them are generally familiar with the pros and cons of this long controversy.
    I would just summarise, very shortly, the qualities and aspects of this penalty which make it to all of us a revolting and barbaric thing. It is hot only the melodrama and sensationalism with which these proceedings are surrounded; it is not only the sordid squalor, every detail of which spreads into the newspapers in every one of these crimes, and whose effect on juvenile delinquency has never been measured but must be very considerable; it is not only the relentless finality of this penalty, the relentless finality which makes this result that once it has been inflicted there is no room for rectification if there were error or miscarriage of justice. No one who knows the records can doubt that there have been cases of error, that there have been miscarriages of justice, and that

    981
    innocent men have in fact been executed. It was, I think, Lord Sumner who once said—and I think that this is one of the cardinal factors in this controversy—that until human judgment is infallible, we have no right to inflict an irrevocable doom.
    Above all these things, there is the sense which we all have that this penalty, of itself, denies the very principle on which we claim the right to inflict it—namely, the sanctity of human life. In spite of all these things—and they are weighty matters—I think almost everyone would retain the penalty if they were convinced that, with its retention, there would be fewer murders than if it were removed. Ultimately, the justification, and the sole justification if there be one for the retention of this penalty is that it is necessary to protect society and that unless we do inflict it society cannot protect itself from murderers. No one can prove that that is true; no one can prove that it is untrue. It is a speculation either way, but we may compare it and draw inferences from the comparison both with our previous legal history and with the state of affairs in other countries in which this penalty has been abolished.
    It has been abolished in many European countries and in a number of American countries, and it has been abolished a very long time. If we compare it, first, with out own legal and judicial history, and remember how many crimes to which this penalty has been attached within a not very long period, it will be seen that the removal of the death penalty from any crime has at no time been followed by an increase in the incidence of that crime. There is no ground whatever for saying, and the facts are all against it, that in any of the other offences to which the death penalty used to attach, the removal of the death penalty has produced any deleterious consequences of any kind.
    In those countries which have abolished it, the figures show that its abolition has not caused an increase in crimes of violence and has not caused an increase in the incidence of murder. In the United States of America, there are contiguous States, in some of which the death penalty has been retained, while in neighbouring States the death penalty has been abolished, and there is no appreciable difference between the weight of murder
    982
    in either case. It is possible that this country is different. No one can prove that it is not, but I should have thought that a reasonable inference was that, this country's civilisation being of no lower standard than the civilisation of all those other countries, a barbaric penalty with which they have been able to dispense without harm to their community or to their society, can be dispensed with in our case with no greater harm than in theirs.
    Why should the death penalty be a greater deterrent than any other penalty? I do not want to launch into a discussion of murders and murderers, but they fall into recognisable classes. In the cold, premeditated crime, there is no thought of discovery, and, therefore, no deterrent, no anticipated penalty; in the other class, which is not premeditated or coldly calculated, but which is, in a sense, incidental and sometimes accidental to the very circumstances, all murders prevent the contemplation of a penalty and the existence of a deterrent. It was, I think, Bacon, in his famous "Essay on Death," who dealt finally with this argument, when he said:
    "There is no passion in the mind of man so weak but it mates and masters the fear of death."
    I do not propose to say anything further about the general merits of this controversy, because I assume that those who have considered it and have decided that the death penalty ought to go, will need no assistance from me, and those who have come to the opposite conclusion will have come to it equally carefully, equally painstakingly, equally conscientiously, and are not likely to be influenced the other way by anything that I can say at this moment.
    So far as the Government's position is concerned, we are all in a little difficulty. I assume that their view is that they do not wish to quarrel with the description of the death penalty which I have given, that it remains their policy today, as it has been the policy of this party unanimously for many years, that the death penalty is, in principle, mistaken, and ought to be abolished. I can conceive of no Government policy to the contrary, and, indeed, when the known views of many Members of the Government on this subject are remembered, how there can

    983
    be a Government policy in any other sense or any Government policy at all, is a matter for metaphysicians rather than politicians, because differences of opinion in the Cabinet, I am perfectly certain, follow the same lines as differences of opinion on this matter everywhere else, in the House and in the country, and I think the proportions are much the same.
    If anything is to be said on ostentation in this matter—ostentatious abstention or non-participation—I am bound to say that nothing could be more ostentatious than the absence from the Government Front Bench at this moment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Minister of Health and, especially, the Law Officers of the Crown. So far as the Secretary of State for Scotland is concerned, I would like to say to him in all kindness—I am afraid I cannot, as he is not here—that I suppose the Secretary of State for Scotland could only vote against the new Clause which I am now moving on the principle that it is right to hang Englishmen, because, for a period of 17 years, there was no execution in Scotland, and, over a period of more than a century, the number of executions in Scotland was five.
    Mr. Rankin: It is a well-behaved race.
    Mr. Silverman: Well, there is going to be a well-behaved race without use of the capital penalty. May I, having been born south of the Border, say that I have the greatest possible respect for the morality and law-abiding nature of Scotsmen, but that I have no reason to think that their Saxon colleagues are any less moral or in greater need of the penalty?
    The Government did indicate at an earlier stage an attitude on which I think all of us in all parts of the House, no matter what we think about this question, would wish to congratulate them. This is not a matter on which party divisions operate or make any difference at all. Differences of view about this matter cut across party divisions and party comment. I suppose it would be true to say that in the opinion of most of us, there is no possibility of a collective judgment on this matter by any group of men having any more validity than the collective judgment of any other group of
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    men, whether the group concerned be His Majesty's judges—who on this kind of matter for a century and a half have always been mistaken—or the Cabinet, or officials in the Home Office. None of them can do any other than each one of us is bound in conscience to do for himself—namely, to look at the facts and the arguments fairly on both sides and make up our minds, as best we can, which is right, and vote honestly and courageously according to our conscientious judgment when we have considered both sides and made up our minds. That, I understand, was the Government's view.
    In his Second Reading speech, the Home Secretary said that the Government had not put this matter into the Bill because they thought public opinion was not ripe for it. I concede that if that were correct, they would be justified in leaving it out, and this House would not be justified in putting it in, because these matters cannot be judged intrinsically in a vacuum. Penalties are not right or wrong only in themselves. They must be seen against the background of the social morality of the time in which they are being discussed, and must not be either too far ahead or too far behind the level of morality or civilisation. How is that public opinion to be ascertained? It cannot be done by going down to a constituency and counting heads or going into a club or a cinema or a theatre, posing the question, counting the answers and saying that is the public opinion of this country.
    If we wish to obtain the public opinion of this country on such a matter we must only do it, and can only do it, by getting a cross section of our citizens, by giving them the facts as we know them, by putting forward the arguments of both sides, and by relying on their good sense, good judgment and moral integrity to come to the right conclusion in the light of those facts and those arguments. Where can we find a better cross section of the community than this elected House of Commons? We are not delegates; we are not bound to ascertain exactly what a numerical majority of our constituents would wish and then to act accordingly without using our own judgment. Edmund Burke long ago destroyed any such theory. We are not delegates. We are representatives. Our business is to act according to our consciences, honestly

    985
    looking at the facts and coming to as right a judgment as we may.
    I think the Government could not have done more wisely and could not have done more generously, may I say, than when they said, "We will not decide this matter as a Government; we will not call upon our supporters to vote for us, not according to individual opinion conscientiously reached but according to a policy which we lay before them and call upon them loyally to support." That was not their policy. Whatever their view—and quite rightly and properly they reserve the right to indicate it—they said the right policy for the Government was to see how such an expression of opinion was accepted by the House of Commons, freely, without putting on any Whips and without any pressure being brought to bear, without relying on party loyalties or any other kind of group loyalties, but relying on the conscience and integrity of the Members of the House of Commons to come to a clear decision one way or the other, in what is admittedly an extremely difficult matter.
    It appears that, to some extent, the Government have had second thoughts. I could quite understand a Government which said that this is a matter of fundamental principle on which the Government must make up their mind and call upon those who support them in Parliament to follow that policy and enact it. That they have decided not to do, and I take it they were right not to do it. I could quite understand, too, the other view, which I have expressed already and which we all thought was the Government's view. But I cannot understand the half-way house which says, "We will put the facts and the figures and the arguments to the conscientious judgment of back benchers in the House of Commons, but Members of the Government are not entitled to exercise a conscientious judgment about the matter."
    It would be a tragic result—I do not know what will happen when the Division takes place—if in the end, this Clause were defeated and we were, for the next generation, to kill 12 or 15 people a year, not because the House of Commons by a majority thought it was right so to do, but because 20 or 30 or 40 Members of the House of Commons were prevented by Government inhibition from voting accord-
    986
    ing to their conscience. Three times in the last 18 years the House of Commons has decided in favour of abolishing the death penalty. I would hate it to happen that the only Parliament to vote in favour of retaining it should be a Labour House of Commons, and that it should vote in that sense, not because a majority of us so believed, but because a sizable minority of us were prevented from exercising our conscientious view.
    I understand the Government's case to be, not that they were in favour of the death penalty in principle but that, in the circumstances that now obtain, this is the wrong moment in which to live up to those principles. I cannot understand that argument. Either the death penalty is a deterrent in the case of crimes of violence or it is not. If one thinks it is a deterrent, one ought to retain it for ever. If one thinks it is not a deterrent, one ought to abolish it. But it is a complete non sequitur to say, "We think the death penalty ought to be abolished because it is not a deterrent, but we will not abolish it now because if we do murders will increase." The second half of that sentence is in complete contradiction of the first. If the removal of the death penalty today would increase the number of murders, that can only be because the dealth penalty is a deterrent. If one concedes that the death penalty is a deterrent, one cannot be against it on principle, and it is impossible to my mind to argue at one moment that the thing ought to be abolished some day because it is not a deterrent, but ought to be retained today because it is a deterrent.
    There is one other point. Crimes of violence do not always lead to death. It used to be argued that crimes of violence could be deterred by the death sentence when they resulted in death and by corporal punishment when they did not. If crimes of violence are increasing, and if these forms of penalty are a deterrent, why have the Government chosen this moment to abolish corporal punishment? It is impossible to argue that it is safe to abolish corporal punishment when crimes of violence are on the increase but unsafe to abolish the death penalty. I should not have thought we could choose between the two. I should have thought the argument would be the same in both cases, but that, if there were anything to choose

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    between them, the argument would be the other way—that we should abolish the death penalty first and defer the abolition of corporal punishment, rather than that we should abolish corporal punishment and defer the abolition of the death penalty.
    Finally, it was said that crimes of violence are increasing because the sense of the sanctity of human life is lower than it used to be, and that for that reason we should ourselves destroy life. I think that the argument is really all the other way. It is true that in the lifetime of most of us values of this kind have meant progressively less and less in the opinion of most communities. I suppose that after we have had two world wars with infinite loss of human life, after we have had the bombardment of cities and the wiping out of whole populations, after we have had new crimes committed against whole peoples for which we have had to invent new names, after such incidents as those of Hiroshima and Nagasaki—I suppose it may seem a very small matter whether half a dozen worthless human beings, who have themselves taken human life, should die or live.
    But, surely, it is the duty of all of us who value our civilisation not to depress still further those moral and spiritual values, but to seek to raise them, and to seek to raise them at precisely this moment when they are most in danger. If they are most in danger now, now is the time to restore the sense of the ultimate value of every human being, rather than to seek further to undermine that value. In the end these matters are decided not by the criminologists, nor by the politicians, nor by the philosophers. In the end they must be decided by moral standards. In the end the question we have to ask is this: Will what we are doing advance or repress the re-creation of the values of those standards in human minds? I say that this new Clause ought to be overwhelmingly passed by this House of Commons because it represents, in the last analysis, those moral and spiritual values on which, really, society is founded.
    4.4 p.m.
    Mr. Hollis: I beg to second the Motion.
    As is self-evident, this is in no way a party question. I have never before spoken in favour of a Motion moved by
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    the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I do not know if I shall ever again speak in favour of such a Motion. As the poet said,
    "The rainbow and the cuckoo's song
    May never come together again,
    May never come this side of the tomb."
    It is not for me to speculate as to which is which. But this is in no sense a party question in the sense that we shall be shepherded into our Lobbies by our Whips. And it is in no sense a partisan question, in that I am sure there is no hon. Member who wishes to approach it otherwise than on the balance of the arguments, or who wishes to approach it in the spirit of the scoring of points. It is in that spirit of wishing to strike the balance of truth that I shall endeavour to approach it.
    Let me first make clear certain things
    which I do not propose to argue. I am not concerned to maintain an absolute metaphysical doctrine that the State in no circumstances has the right to take human life. I think that there is force as well as wit in the saying of the Frenchman:
    "Que messieurs les assassins commencent."
    I agree with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, that if I could be persuaded that human life would be more freely taken if capital punishment were abolished, I should be opposed to its abolition. Secondly, I am not concerned to argue whether or not it should be abolished today in other places, or whether or not it should have been abolished at other times; whether it would be safely abolished among the headhunters of Borneo, or the Albanian tribesmen, or the peons of Mexico, or the gangsters of Chicago—those things are as they may be; or whether our ancestors should have abolished it 60 years ago—that is as may be. I am simply concerned with the issue that it should be abolished in Great Britain in this year of 1948.
    In the controversy of the last months the controversy has, in two very significant ways, differed from this controversy as it has raged in previous years. Of these two ways, the first is that there has been much less emphasis laid upon a sentimental regard for the criminal. The case has been much more argued on the general welfare of society, and, in particular, from the point of view of the

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    prison officials, because it is increasingly felt that, whereas the whole basis of our criminal law now is a basis of asking people to undertake a high vocation of reformation, there is the almost intolerable contradiction between this one punishment and everything else that will be the basis of our criminal law in the future. I think even hon. Members who cannot support the abolition of capital punishment feel that there is strength in that point. Secondly, of course, as the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne said, few voices have been raised in the present controversy in favour of capital punishment as such. The whole argument has turned on whether the present moment is the opportune moment for abolition; and that is, I understand, the basis upon which the Home Secretary is arguing. I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne on what seems to be the essential illogicality of that position. I propose not to deal with the general point, but to deal with four points which have been most commonly urged in favour of the present moment not being the opportune moment.
    Four arguments have been brought forward, of which one seems to me an unworthy argument and three seem to me to be worthy arguments. I shall deal first with what appears to me to be the unworthy argument. It is the argument which has been particularly associated with the name of Mr. Bernard Shaw. Mr. Shaw argues that certain murderers are reformable and should be reformed. But he says that doctors can tell us that other people are beyond reformation, and they should be killed "as one would kill a mad dog." I use Mr. Shaw's own words. In the course of a long and distinguished career Mr. Bernard Shaw has never until now expressed the smallest regard for any opinion expressed by a doctor. It never occurred to him that a doctor was capable of telling him what he should eat, or what he should drink, or whether he should be vaccinated, or whether he should wear braces. Yet now, for some extraordinary reason, at the end of it, he says that the doctors are the best possible people to tell us whether murderers are or are not capable of moral reformation.
    Surely, it is quite clear that if Mr. Shaw's argument proves anything at all it proves a great deal too much. If it be true that there are incorrigibly murder-
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    ing types, what is the sense in waiting for the murderer to commit his murder? Would it not be much more sensible, and much more humane, to arrest him in the street for having the wrong shaped head, put him on his trial for the murder that he will undoubtedly commit next year, and execute him before he commits it? The reason why Mr. Shaw's whole suggestion is unworthy of serious consideration is that nobody can honestly imagine that there is one doctor in this land who will take upon himself the responsibility of saying, concerning a man who possibly has before him the prospect of 50 years of natural life, that that man is or is not capable of moral reformation, when the man's life is to depend upon such a verdict.
    I turn from that—which seems to me an unworthy argument—to the three thoroughly worthy arguments which hon. Members must weigh with every care before giving their verdict. They are the three things that we are told. We are told, first, that owing to the accident of war there are many more firearms about in the hands of unauthorised people, and that if capital punishment be abolished there is the gravest danger that burglars will arm themselves, to a greater extent than at present, and hope to shoot their way out of arrest. We are told, secondly, that capital punishment must be preserved for the sake of the police, and that it is unfair to ask the police to do their dangerous work without that safeguard. We are told, thirdly, that there is a grave prospect, in the present state of the world, that lawlessness will grow, that things will grow much worse, and that this is no time in any way to weaken the hand of authority for the preservation of order. Those are three very worthy arguments which deserve careful consideration. The first two are, to a large extent, of the same order and I will, if I may, consider them together.
    Primarily, it is a matter of the facts. I entirely agree, and could not agree more strongly with any hon. Member who says that we have both an obligation to do all we can to protect the peaceful citizen, and an obligation to do all we can to make the policeman's life as little dangerous as possible. There can be no disputes among any hon. Members on that proposition. The only matter with which we are concerned is whether the retention or abolition of capital punishment is more

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    likely to further this end. As hon. Members know, the question of armed burglars was considered before the war by the Select Committee, on the suggestion of Lord Buckmaster, and evidence was collected from countries where capital punishment had been abolished—from Norway, Belgium, Holland, Sweden and Denmark—to see whether, in point of fact, there had been any increase in the numbers of armed criminals as a result of that abolition. The verdict of the Select Committee on that point was unequivocal:
    "In experience these forebodings have no foundation. We have had no evidence put before us that after the abolition of capital punishment in other countries there has been any increase in the number of burglars arming themselves."
    That was the situation before the war.
    Then we are told—and it is a perfectly fair point—that we have moved forward into a rather different world; that there is a vastly greater habit of using firearms, and that there are many more arms about than at the time the Select Committee sat 18 years ago. Again, we must look at the facts, which are that in this country, which still has capital punishment, since the war there has been a certain regrettable increase in the use of arms by criminals. But when we turn to the abolitionist countries there has been no such parallel increase at all. In the last few weeks I have myself been in both Holland and Denmark, countries which had resistance movements—which we did not have—where it was notorious, for one reason and another, that enormous quantities of arms were not surrendered when the war came to an end. Yet in those countries, so distant from their minds is the very problem of attacks upon the police and of the armed criminal that they are even unaware of it as one of the problems with which they have to deal at all. As I came into the House this afternoon I received a similar letter from a Swiss prison official, who writes:
    "There are certainly not more crimes of violence, except by foreigners, mainly Poles and Russians. There are no attacks on the police."
    So sans phrase without any qualification at all.
    What strikes my mind from examining the facts is the curious point that crimes of violence seem to increase in countries which have capital punishment under
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    these circumstances, but do not increase in countries which do not have capital punishment. Now why is that? Why can that be? I know that to many people it seems almost a paradox to say that capital punishment is not a deterrent. But I would remind hon. Members that the greatest of all living psychologists, Dr. Jung, is of the opinion that, on the whole, capital punishment is a slight encouragement to murder rather than a deterrent. I will explain that argument. People are inclined to say: "I should not like to be hanged, and I do not commit murder. Therefore, it is obvious that hanging is a deterrent." But that is counterfeit logic, and for
    this reason. In such a country as ours, in some years slightly more and in some years slightly fewer than 100 people a year commit murder, out of a population of 48 million. That is to say, we, the vast majority of us, those who flatter ourselves that we are normal, would not commit murder anyway, whatever be the penalty.
    The question, therefore, is, not "What is a deterrent to the normal citizen?"—because that question has no meaning—but "What is a deterrent to the highly abnormal pathological types which form the class of potential murderers?" I am perfectly willing to admit for the sake of argument—though I doubt whether it is really true—that there may be a certain type of perfectly sane, but perfectly wicked, ruthless, premeditating murderer who murders for gain; but if such a man exists, he has comparatively little bearing upon the whole question of deterrents because, as the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne said, his whole purpose depends on escaping detection because his murder is for gain, and if he is detected at all, whatever the penalty may be, he does not obtain the prize. Therefore, he is not important to this particular argument.
    What is important is the pathological type, out of which a large proportion, if not the great majority, of our murderers come. These are unfortunate people who have some perverted tendencies within them for which their nature demands satisfaction, but the satisfaction of which society cannot tolerate. Therefore, their frame of mind is that of feeling themselves at warfare with society; and it is Dr. Jung's argument—which I believe to be a just one—that, if anything,

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    they get an extra thrill out of feeling that that warfare is for the ultimate of all stakes. Or, to take another class which is, to a very large extent, an overlapping class, there are certain people who have a mania for publicity carried to a quite insane degree. I have sometimes heard ungenerous people say that politicians are a vain class, and care a lot more about publicity than they ought to. But as one who has had a certain amount of experience of both classes, I can assure hon. Members that in this respect politicians are as nothing to murderers.
    A certain number of people have this mania for publicity, and to satisfy their vanity they must be at the centre of the stage, in however discreditable a rôle; or, to satisfy an even deeper vanity, they wish to have their deed on everybody's lips, and flatter themselves that they alone will know by whom it has been done. Anyone who has studied Dostoevsky's character, Raskolnikov, in "Crime and Punishment," which is perhaps the greatest of all studies of this type of psychopathic, will understand what I mean. For it to be an effective deterrent, it is absolutely essential that the punishment should be as little dramatic and as humdrum as possible. Therefore, on that ground capital punishment is the very worst sort of punishment for this type of character. About no years ago—I think it was in 1848—Dickens wrote:
    "Around capital punishment there lingers a fascination urging the weak and bad people towards it, and imparting an interest to the details connected with it, and with malefactors awaiting it or suffering it, which even good and well-disposed people cannot withstand."
    I cannot understand how anyone who has studied the history of criminology can doubt that that is true.
    I come now to the third entirely worthy point. People tell us that maybe most criminals are at the moment of the pathological type; but we have to face the terrible fact of the disturbance in the world today, and the grave prospect that we are moving into an era of much more widespread and general lawlessness. It is a dismal prospect that we should have to look forward to such a world, and everyone hopes that these things will not come about. But this is not the time for wishful thinking, and anyone would be irresponsible and culpable if, in a mere sentimental mood, he weakened the
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    effective power of authority at such a time as this. It may be that we are moving into such a world, and there are grave signs of that. I entirely associate myself with anyone who maintains that this is a time when it would be wrong to take away from authority any effective means it has for the preservation of order. But the whole question we have to argue is whether this is an effective means, and whether authority will he in stronger or weaker position in maintaining order if capital punishment is or is not retained.
    It is my whole contention that, far from strengthening the hand of authority, we are weakening the hand of authority by retaining this form of punishment. There is no more certain lesson of history than that it is no way to obtain order by piling on additional, harsh and savage penalties, without taking effective precautions to capture the criminals and enforce the penalties. We know the error which our ancestors made in the 18th century. When anything went wrong in the State, they simply created a new capital punishment, lengthening out the list, and taking no steps to create an efficient police force. The result was that the more capital penalties which were put on
    the Statute Book the greater lawlessness reigned in the country. The whole method proved very foolish.
    Everyone agrees that the really important thing is to have efficient protection rather than savage punishments. Three weeks ago, the House was debating the very important problems of our police services. This is not the time to go into details on how the problems of the police are to be solved, but everyone will agree that these problems must be solved, and that if they are not solved, we shall have an outbreak of lawlessness, whether we have capital punishment or not. I do not think there will be any dispute about that.
    But the reason why it is my contention that the retention of capital punishment will not strengthen but weaken the hand of authority is this: suppose that we were a more callous people. Suppose that we were prepared to say in a rough-and-ready fashion that so long as it was shown that anybody was connected in some kind of way with a murder and was no better than he should be then it was quite all right that he should be hanged, we should have a different problem. But, for better or

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    for worse, we are not a people of that sort. There are very few of us who do not rejoice that we are not a people of that sort. But, whether we like it or not, there it is. We already have a public opinion which demands of every Home Secretary that he grant a reprieve in every case where there is the smallest scintilla of doubt or extenuating circumstances, and no one will pretend that that state of affairs will be changed or ought to be changed. In these circumstances, capital punishment in a society with that mentality seems to me to be as silly and as ineffective a deterrent as anyone can conceivably imagine. By it we offer to the pathological type all the thrills of risking his life, and comparatively little of the dangers of actually losing it. It would be hardly possible to think out a worse system. A hundred years ago, our ancestors came to this conclusion, in the Select Committee's Report of 1836:
    "We are induced to believe that the selection of a few culprits, who alone are to suffer death out of a greater number convicted for the same offence in point of law, does not diminish but on the contrary tends to increase the number of offenders."
    That is a verdict which I believe to be entirely wise and in accordance with the facts. I believe that we should get rid of this punishment for other reasons, and among those other reasons is this: that if there is a regrettable outbreak of lawlessness, the Government will be in a much stronger position to deal with it if it has a criminal system supported by public opinion, than if it has a criminal system which cannot be enforced with rigour.
    I will conclude by laying before the House two general reflections. We have all lived through what is in many ways a sad time. As a little boy, I went to school just before the 1914 war. We read that there had been a time when there were such things as torture and religious persecution, with people being put in prison without a proper trial. We were taught that these things had utterly vanished from the face of Europe. It is a deplorable thing that we who are now in middle age should have lived to see many of these things coming back in Europe on a scale gigantically greater than has ever been known in previous human history. It is, at least, a matter which we in this country can look upon with joy, that we have during that same period on
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    the whole, whatever may be our faults, become more tolerant, more kindly and more decent. There cannot be anyone who does not agree that it would be the gravest of tragedies if we should have to abandon our rôle of mercy and turn to the ways which find favour in some other countries. There cannot be anyone in this country who is not anxious that we should be able to take some dramatic step to show that we are still upon the side of mercy. I entirely agree that it would he very wrong for that reason to do anything extravagant, sentimental and unthought out, but I feel that there never has been a step which has not been more thoroughly debated, and where the dangers are smaller, than this step we are now asking the House to take.
    In 1942, at the time of a rising crime rate, at the very height of the war, the great Dominion of New Zealand abolished capital punishment and, as a result, suffered no deleterious effects. After the end of the Napoleonic wars we had a situation which, in some ways, was not dissimilar from the situation prevailing today. There was unrest, growth of crime, and the Home Secretary of that day was Lord Sidmouth. He pursued the old-fashioned and foolish policy of thinking that the remedy for lawlessness was more savage repression, and this country, for seven years, suffered from a regime of oppression, at the end of which, as always happens, lawlessness, so far from being brought to an end, increased. There succeeded to Lord Sidmouth, as Home Secretary, Sir Robert Peel, a stern man in some ways, harsh in some ways, and in no kind of way a sentimentalist. But Sir Robert Peel saw that the very fact of the danger of lawlessness, so far from being a reason against reform, was a reason for reform. He introduced a new policy to reform the criminal code and, at the same time, instituted an efficient police system.
    From his day until this day our criminal system has gone forward step by step until, gradually, it has been transformed from the most barbaric in Western Europe to the most humane. At every step in this progress conscientious and responsible people have prophesied that it was a dangerous step, which would lead to anarchy and a breakdown of the law. Nevertheless, every step has been taken, and the result has not been an increase but a decrease of crime. It has

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    been a great disappointment and surprise to many people that the Home Secretary has not felt able to put himself into that great line of reforming Home Secretaries, and give his name to the final step in this progress, We all hope, however, that even at the last minute the right hon. Gentleman may be able to change his mind, but, with or without him, I hope the House will go forward and carry this great reform.
    4.33 p.m.
    Sir John Anderson: This controversy on the subject of capital punishment can be distinguished sharply from most, if not all, other matters of public controversy in this respect, that the two sides to the controversy have always been very unequally represented. We have seen over many years, in this country and elsewhere, associations of earnest men and women striving to build up opinion in favour of the abolition of capital punishment. Corresponding organisations, aiming at the maintenance of capital punishment, are almost unknown. I have heard of such an organisation in the United States of America, but not in this country.
    The reason for this peculiar feature is the same as that which deters persons who have an instinct, or even an intellectual or conscientious conviction, in favour of the retention of capital punishment from pressing their views, from propagating their views among their fellow men. I, personally, feel the same sense of reluctance. I should have been glad to avoid speaking on this matter today, and I do so, I ask the House to believe, only from a sense of duty. I was for 10 years at the Home Office as the permanent head of that office, and I had during that time to examine all the records and all the available material with regard to every case, without exception, of a capital sentence passed in this country. I also had some experience of the same subject matter elsewhere.
    I gave evidence of considerable length for four days before the Select Committee which reported in 1930. I strove to the best of my ability during that evidence to avoid any expression of personal opinion on the matter at issue. I feel bound to express today in this House the opinions to which I have been led after a long and, I think, a very exceptional experience. I gratefully recognise that
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    the Members who have moved and seconded this new Clause have made my task as easy as possible by the moderation and restraint with which they have put their view before the House.
    I think there is general agreement, at any rate on certain aspects of this matter. I think there would be general agreement that the justification for the capital sentence, as for other salient features of our penal system, must be sought in the protection of society, and in that alone. I should think, also—though this is more doubtful—that there is probably throughout the country, and in this House, a fair measure of agreement about the deterrent effects of the capital sentence. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) said that either it is a deterrent or it is not. That, I submit, is too great a simplification, and before I say why I take that view I would like, by way of parenthesis, to draw a sharp distinction which, I think, ought to be drawn in this respect between capital punishment and corporal punishment.
    I believe that there is an overwhelming volume of evidence, to which the records of the Home Office bear witness, against the view that corporal punishment, by itself, is an effective deterrent. I do not take the same view in regard to capital punishment, but I think that ye have here to distinguish—and distinguish clearly—between a number of types of case. I believe it to be true that the professional criminal, the burglar, and so on, in normal times—and the present times are exceptional—goes about his business unarmed largely because he does not wish to expose himself to the risk of using a firearm, committing murder, and incurring a penalty much more severe than would be visited upon him in respect of his normal criminal activities. I think that in regard to what is called "constructive murder," where a person setting out on some felonious enterprise unwittingly causes death, where he ties up a night watchman or chloroforms someone on premises he has entered, and death results in a case of murder for which he is hanged, the death penalty—I want to avoid undue dogmatism—has no deterrent effect at all.
    In regard to the various degrees of what the French call crime passionnel, I doubt whether the death penalty has any deterrent effect. Certainly it has not

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    —1 feel justified in saying this—anything like the same deterrent effect as is exercised in such cases by the general conception of the sanctity of human life in which such people have been brought up and have lived. In the case of political murder, which can be sharply distinguished from other types of murder, I think that, so far as the death penalty is operative at all as a deterrent, it is not so much the death penalty itself which operates, as the horror of hanging. Those, at any rate, are my views.
    Broadly, I would say that the death penalty does reinforce the protection of society, and, in particular, it does diminish the risk to which the officers of the law are exposed. The death penalty must surely be considered in its setting as one aspect, and one aspect only, of our penal system. I think that in this matter the Select Committee, whose Report I have here with the evidence, were at a disadvantage because they were working under a rather narrow and restricted reference which, I think, they themselves felt debarred them from going fully into all the relevant aspects of our penal system. There is no longer in our regard of the criminal law any recognition of such primitive conceptions as atonement or retribution. We have, over the years, fortunately succeeded to a very large extent, if not entirely, in relegating the purely punitive aspect of our criminal law to the background.
    Mr. Benson Mr. Benson (Chesterfield) indicated dissent.
    Sir J. Anderson: The hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) shakes his head. We stress at any rate, and for many years have stressed, the reformative aspect. We stress it, I think, not so much in relation to the individual criminal, as in its aspect of a duty which society owes to itself as the best method, in the long run, of promoting the security and the well-being of the community. That, at any rate, is the point of view from which I have regarded the reformative aspect of our penal system. We avoid, in that way, undue sentimentality.
    I would submit to the House that we must beware of attaching too much importance in our consideration of this problem to experience in other countries. That is a matter which was dealt with at very great length in the evidence
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    before the Select Committee. But countries with a tradition different from our own, with a population differing from ours, more heterogeneous, predominantly rural countries, without the special problems which large cities with considerable slum areas present; countries with different conceptions of law and justice—they present a problem which is essentially different from that with which we have to deal. We have to decide this matter for ourselves in the light of our own conditions, and with due regard to the moral and social standards which have been built up in this country.
    Wing-Commander Millington: May we take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has just said that he is inferring that the standard of law and justice in this country is inferior to the standard of law and justice in most countries which have abolished the death penalty but which have a better record of murders per head of the population?
    Sir J. Anderson: I said nothing of the kind, and I would not accept that for one moment. I think that our standard of law and justice is the best in the world. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) on this question of the lessons, if any, to be learned from experience in other countries, seemed at one point to be arguing as though that experience supported the view that capital punishment is actually an encouragement to violent crime. I cannot accept that at all. I think that is trying to prove far too much.
    May I make a brief reference to another point made, I think, by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne at the beginning of his speech, before I came into the House? He made reference to what has frequently been stressed in the course of controversy on this subject—the undoubted fact that the capital penalty is irrevocable. I think that in that connection it is fair to say, and there was a wealth of testimony to that effect in the evidence before the Select Committee, that the risk, under the conditions as they exist in this country, of the capital penalty being executed on any one who was not in fact guilty of the crime of which he had been convicted is so small, indeed so infinitesimal, that that consideration can be dismissed.
    Mr. S. Silverman: The right hon. Gentleman has great experience of this. Is he prepared to assure the House that, not going back earlier than this century, there have been no innocent men hanged?
    Sir J. Anderson: I am. To the best of my belief that is a fact. Where there is a scintilla—I use the word of the hon. Member for Devizes—of doubt—that is the only consideration relevant to the point I am making—the Home Secretary has invariably advised commutation.
    Mr. Paget: Would the right hon. Gentleman include women in that statement? Was there no question about Mrs. Thompson?
    Sir J. Anderson: Absolutely none. There is no room for doubt at all of the part which she played in that affair. There may be room for doubt as to her degree of guilt as compared with Bywaters, but as to the fact that she was in law guilty of murder, there can be no doubt whatever. There never was a clearer case. That is true also of the only two other women executed in this country in the last 20 years.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: Might I remind the hon. Gentleman of a statement made by the Home Secretary in 1869? I know that I am going back some time, into the last century. The Home Secretary in this House answered questions relative to the exercise of the Royal Prerogative. The answer he gave was that he had had to consider II sentences only in his time; that he had reprieved one because the innocence of the accused was obvious; that he had reprieved another because he was satisfied and the judge was satisfied that the case was one of accident, and the judge was amazed at the conviction; two more on the grounds of insanity and one on the ground of clemency; and that of the six sentences he had enforced, in one—the case of Priscilla Biggadyke—the accused was completely exonerated by the confession of another person.
    Sir J. Anderson: Confessions by other persons do not necessarily exonerate to the extent they may seem to do. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne asked me a specific question with regard to this century. The year 1869 is a long time ago, and the House must realise that in this, as in other matters, there has been very great
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    progress in the interval. The Home Secretary will, of course, be speaking later, and if he dissents from anything I have said, I am sure he will say so. I am giving to the House, as it is my duty to do, the best opinion that I have been able to form.
    In my view, the problem resolves itself mainly into this question: If capital punishment goes, what is to be substituted for it? That is the crux of the matter. In the evidence before this Select Committee there was an impressive unanimity of official opinion. I leave myself out of this altogether, because I did not deal with that particular aspect. I speak of official opinion to cover the representatives of the Prison Commissioners, police services, magistrates and judges. In that connection I would call attention to the evidence of Sir Alexander Paterson—Mr. Alexander Paterson as he was then—who has been so prominently and so honourably associated with the modernisation and humanisation, if I may use a rather horrid word, of our penal system. The evidence was all to the effect that if the capital sentence were abolished it should not be allowed to make any difference whatsoever to our prison régime. I agree with that. What that means is that we have to contemplate that all persons otherwise subject to capital punishment, all who would be hanged according to present practice, would be released from prison after a comparatively short period of detention.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Would the right hon. Gentleman say what he means by "a relatively short period"?
    Sir J. Anderson: May I go on? Sir Alexander Paterson thought that ten years was sufficient. He said he thought that after ten years' physical and mental deterioration set in. I myself would have thought that the present practice of holding for 15 years the worst types of criminal who have not been hanged had a great deal to be said for it, but Sir Alexander Paterson's view was that Io years was sufficient. Anyway, the point I am making is that, according to the evidence of these very experienced people, as a result of the abolition of the capital sentence, if that course were adopted, we ought not to contemplate having to hold criminals in prison for longer periods than are, on the whole, maintained now. That was the effect of

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    the official evidence, and that I think is what we have to face as a practical problem.
    I have said that I agree with the general view that the official witnesses put forward, but I do think that the problem created by the presence in prisons of prisoners who are already suffering the maximum penalty which the law allows has so far been skated over too lightly. There is the case of the "mad dogs" to which my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes referred. Sir Archibald Bodkin, in his evidence before the Select Committee, referred to such people as the "wild beasts of society," and he quoted the case of a poisoner called Chapman who killed three wives one after another by administering tartar emetic and watched them die in agony. Surely we cannot get over the difficulty by saying that prisoners who are really like wild beasts—morose, and subject to gusts of passion—are abnormal and ought to be certified insane.
    Lord Atkin was impressed by what he thought were certain defects in our criminal law and tried to get a new principle adopted. He tried to get what are called the Macnaghten Rules extended to cover cases of murders committed by persons suffering by reason of some defect of mind from what was called ungovernable impulse, but his recommendations were not accepted. In this matter I confess that I am influenced in my mind inevitably by experience of visits to Broadmoor where there are detained persons who have been found insane on conviction or certified insane after conviction, and some of whom are what are called refractory.
    I shall never get out of my mind one case in particular of a man whom I saw—a man in middle life, a fine specimen physically, pleasing to look at, dressed in blue, a typical merchant seaman. That is what he was—an officer of the Mercantile Marine—who had committed a brutal murder, and whose condition was such that he could never be allowed to be within striking distance of any other human being unaccompanied. He could never be
    approached by one attendant alone. When I saw him he was marching round a small enclosure surrounded by a high wall,
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    looking to the ground; he was walking round, and he did that as his only exercise for a certain period every day. There is no hope for such a person. We must never get into a position in which such people have to be detained in prisons.
    I would like the Home Secretary to tell us, because I think Parliament ought to know, how such problems will be dealt with if the death penalty is abolished. We cannot be sure that such persons will be certified insane. It is a real problem and it has troubled me very much.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that there is any difficulty in certifying as insane a man who is in such a condition that he has to be kept entirely by himself out of reach of every other human being?
    Sir J. Anderson: No. What I said was that my mind has been influenced by that particular experience. What I do say is that there are people—the "mad dogs" and "wild beasts" of society—who would not on present standards be certified insane, who, if the capital sentence is abolished, ex hypothesi will be suffering the maximum penalty for violent crime, and who at any moment might break out in ungovernable passion and commit violence perhaps resulting in death of a prison officer. This is the problem and we must face it. We must be realistic in this matter. I do not say that there is no solution, but we must look to the Home Secretary, as I do, to indicate to the House how such a case can be dealt with.
    If my presentation to the House so far is justified, what we have to face is that the worst type of murderers who have always hitherto paid the extreme penalty will be subject to the ordinary reformative influences, be made subject to the ordinary regime of our present system and will be set at liberty after a moderate period of detention, say from 10 to 15 years. The question on which we have to be convinced is whether public opinion will stand for that. Only once before have I made any public statement on this matter, and I should like to quote from it because it represents a considered view expressed after going into the matter with great care. I said:
    "There are some murderers whose crimes are so outrageous that public opinion would never tolerate their release."

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    That may have been rather an emphatic statement but that is what I said. I then went on to say:
    "To hold in custody a man who can look forward to freedom at however remote a date is quite different from keeping custody of one who is doomed and knows he is doomed to live and die in prison."
    I have met that by saying we must accept the fact that people will not be detained indefinitely if the capital sentence is abolished. [Interruption.] That is the consensus of official opinion, and I am asking the Home Secretary whether he agrees with that and what would be the position in future if the capital sentence were abolished. It is a perfectly legitimate question. I went on:
    "Some countries which have abolished capital punishment and are quoted as examples to be followed have in its place a system of solitary confinement which to many minds far transcends in horror the swift and painless penalty of execution. What is to be the attitude of the warders towards a prisoner in that position who may use violence towards them and take their lives if he can with impunity"—
    Mr. Hale: The right hon. Gentleman has made a statement about solitary confinement. The evidence that was given showed that the term used abroad was nothing more than a word of art and the solitary confinement was actually nothing of the kind.
    Sir J. Anderson: The hon. Gentleman interrupted me in a quotation. I am well aware of that evidence, but if the hon. Gentleman will compare the evidence to which he refers with the evidence of Mr. Alexander Paterson, as he was then, after he had visited the prison in question, which was the prison of Louvain, he will see what actually were the conditions in that prison. I say without hesitation that they would be regarded
    as intolerable by those who are concerned
    with the penal system of this country. Let me continue with the quotation:
    "What is to be the attitude of the warders towards a prisoner in that position, who may use violence towards them and take their lives if he can with impunity because he is already undergoing the severest punishment known to the law."
    I said in conclusion:
    "We are a very conservative people, slow to change old methods for new, and while the controversy about capital punishment will go on and the old arguments for and against will be presented in new aspects, only one thing can be predicted with confidence"—
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    this was said some years ago—
    "and that is that the present system will continue until, and only until, the opinion of the majority of our people has definitely turned in the other direction."
    I only quote that because I said it some years ago after careful consideration. It represents my view today.
    Would public opinion stand letting prisoners convicted of murder of the worst type return into the community after a short period of detention? As Sir Archibald Bodkin pointed out in the evidence he gave:
    "English law is not a pendulum to swing backwards and forwards. It is a stable, stern thing based upon the experiences of the centuries."
    What we have to consider surely is not opinion at this particular time or at some point of time in the future, but the stable public opinion which has been built up and which can be regarded as representing the view that will not be changed by some spectacular event in the future.
    My recollection covers, for example, the case of the murder of Sir Henry Wilson. I well remember the state of feeling in this House on the afternoon after Sir Henry Wilson was murdered. I remember the case of the murder of police constable Gutteridge. Two men, Brown and Kennedy, were convicted of that murder which took place in circumstances of extraordinary brutality. I remember the case of Ronald True, on which there was strong feeling in this House, and I remember many others. I am very doubtful whether public opinion could be reconciled to the idea that, in deference to the most modern conception of the reformative penal system, such people should be let loose on society after a short period of detention. I do not want to dogmatise unduly on this; I merely say I am very doubtful.
    I would say, having regard to the view that I have expressed as to the kind of public opinion that we must see before we feel justified in making this change, that this is not quite the time to choose when standards of values the world over have been relaxed, when human life has been cheapened by the recent experiences of the war and by happenings today all over the world. As regards the proposal that the abolition of the capital sentence should be tried for a period of five years, to that I am absolutely opposed. I do not believe that it will provide any useful lesson. I should regard it merely as an

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    evasion of the real issue, an evasion which would quite subtly shift the onus of proof from where it ought to be.
    I say this in conclusion, if the purpose of hon. Members who support this change, and whose conscientious convictions I most sincerely respect, is to reconcile public opinion to the abolition of the death sentence, a much better and safer method would be that indicated at the conclusion of the Report of the Select Committee under the heading "Conditional Recommendations," namely, by an administrative adjustment of the criterion upon which the prerogative of mercy is exercised by the Home Secretary.
    5.10 p.m.
    Mr. John Paton: I consider myself fortunate in having been able to catch Mr. Speaker's eye immediately after the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) has resumed his seat. I know that the right hon. Gentleman speaks on these matters with very great and intimate knowledge of the working of the Government Department which is responsible for dealing with criminals, and that he has spoken with a very deep and real sincerity, which we all accept. We accept at once his statement that he has made his speech as a matter of duty. I want to say that I speak on this subject also with deep sincerity. On almost all of the points
    which were raised by the right hon. Gentleman I take a view which is completely contrary to the view that he has expressed. I know he will understand that I, being a perfervid Scot like himself, will not attempt to pull my punches. If I do not pull my punches it will nevertheless, not show any lack of respect on my part for the right hon. Gentleman or for the sincerity of his arguments.
    The right hon. Gentleman used a curious argument at the close of his speech. In another advocate, I would have thought it extremely suspect. He devoted a considerable amount of time to asking the question—a very proper question if it were put in proper terms—"Will public opinion stand for the worst murderers being released after short terms in prison?" No one is suggesting or proposing any such thing. There is no such proposal in the Clause under discussion. Nobody on this side of the House who supports the Clause is in the
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    least likely to make any such proposal. Why, then, was that particular question so emphasised by the right hon. Gentleman at the close of his speech? Please observe its terms, and the juxtaposition of the two references, "worst murderers" and "short terms of imprisonment."
    Who proposes it? Certainly, nobody on this side of the House has ever thought of such a thing. The Clause specifically says that, in the five years' experiment, we want the law to be operated exactly as it is now, that the final decision will always rest with the Home Secretary, advised as he is by governors of prisons, medical officers of prisons and by the chief officials of his own Department whether in any particular case it is wise and proper in the public interest and for the public security that such and such an individual should be released. The right hon. Member knows well, and better than I do by far, how great is the measure of caution which is exercised in the Home Office and by the Home Secretary before any such release is arranged. I suggest that the whole of that section of the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was founded on a completely wrong statement and a complete misconception of what we are after.
    Sir J. Anderson: I am reluctant to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. He himself said that the movers of the Motion contemplate that the procedure of the Home Office should be exactly the same as it is now. He apparently does not realise that for many years past it has been the practice of the Home Office to release the worst type of criminal, those who have for one reason or another escaped the gallows, after serving a comparatively short period. Under present conditions, nobody is detained indefinitely in prison. I think I am right in saying that.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede)The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede) indicated assent.
    Mr. Paton: I definitely appreciate that point. We come down to this question: What is the definition of "comparatively short"? Is it the 15 years, or the 20 years, that such prisoners have sometimes been known to serve? We come down to the basic fact that the Home Secretary will not—I know that our present Home Secretary will in this matter follow in the footsteps of his predecessor—at any time take the risk or accept the responsibility

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    of releasing any criminal of this type who is likely to be in any sense a danger to the community. That is why I think that all that section of the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was completely irrelevant.
    The second point to which I want to refer was another upon which the right hon. Gentleman laid very great stress indeed, the possible dangers that might arise to prison officers carrying out in prisons duties imposed upon them by us as a community, when they are controlling prisoners doomed to long sentences of imprisonment without hope of early release, knowing that they cannot be hanged if they kill. One understands at once the seriousness of the point, and it is a point which must be weighed and given grave and serious consideration before a confident answer can be given to it. I want to give an answer to it from a great authority who was before the Select Committee on Capital Punishment. When he was asked the specific question: "Do you consider that, in the holding in our prisons of a certain number of criminals who would now be executed but would be reprieved under the new dispensation, there would be any insuperable problems to face?" that authority said in reply, "No," he thought there would be no insuperable problems. The authority I am quoting is the right hon. Gentleman himself, then the permanent head of the Home Office.
    Sir J. Anderson: I am afraid that I must interrupt again. The answer was on the basis that those people could be released after a short period. On that basis the opinion was expressed that there would be no problems for the prison authorities. The problem arises in another connection.
    Mr. Paton: I cannot possibly accept the implications of that explanation. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will refresh his memory by reading these pages in the Select Committee's Report which he has on the Table in front of him. He will find that the matter is as I have stated. The last thing on earth I want to do is to misrepresent him in any way whatever. We do not require to misrepresent anybody. We are convinced that on our side we have all the facts and all the arguments, which make misrepresentation completely unnecessary.
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    Beforé I pass on to the main case which I want to present there is another very important point to which I must refer. It is the possibility of miscarriage of justice in capital cases in this country. The right hon. Gentleman was very careful not to say that miscarriage of justice in capital charges is impossible. He said, however, that the danger, because of the extreme care associated with the trial in our criminal courts of any person upon a capital charge, was extremely remote, so remote as to be negligible. Perhaps those are not his words, but that was undoubtedly his meaning. I have no hesitation at all in subscribing to the statement that the standard of conduct in our courts of law, in particular reference to capital charges, is probably among the highest in the whole world. I subscribe to that, but I do not accept for one moment the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that because those courts are of a very high standard and exercise the greatest amount of care of which human beings are capable, the risk of miscarriage is slight or so slight as to be negligible.
    I could quote to the right hon. Gentleman a number of cases in which there was room for very considerable doubt as to the justice of the sentence, a very considerable room for doubt not expressed merely by people like myself but by the most eminent practitioners of the law and those in a position to have special knowledge. However, I want to cite something rather different from that. I want to cite something which I think the right hon. Gentleman will find extremely difficult to answer. It is something which affects a whole group of cases going back over a long period of time and affecting the interpretation of the law which may, so far as any of us can tell, have led to repeated miscarriages of justice in capital charges over the whole of that period.
    He may remember the case of Woolmington v. Director of Public Prosecutions. That was a case in which a young man was put on trial for his life for shooting his wife, and his defence was that the shooting was accidental. He was twice tried because the first trial jury disagreed. He was convicted by the second jury after a long deliberation and was sentenced to death. The case went to the Appeal Court and the Appeal Court held that the judge's rulings on law were

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    correct and proper, and upheld the sentence. There, so far as the great majority of condemned criminals are concerned, the matter would have dropped, but in this case there happened to be a local solicitor of great tenacity as well as considerable knowledge, and he held on and in the end was able to get the fiat of the Attorney-General to carry the case to the House of Lords.
    What happened? The House of Lords threw out the conviction. It was stated by Lord
    Sankey in giving the judgment of the assembled judges:
    "No matter what the charge or where the trial, the principle that the prosecution must prove the guilt of the prisoner is part of the common law of England, and no attempt to whittle it down can be entertained."
    The reason for that statement was that in cases where accident was the defence of the prisoner charged, the onus of proof was lifted from the prosecution to the defence.
    The House and the right hon. Gentleman should know about that. A wrong principle of law had stood in this country from 1762 and was only overturned in 1935. As a writer in the "Law Journal" said:
    "It is interesting, if unprofitable, to speculate as to the number of murderers (to say nothing of innocent persons) lying mouldering in lime and ignominy within the precincts of our prisons, and who would have been respectably alive and well today if our judges had known the law."
    Can the right hon. Gentleman get round that one? I suspect that he cannot. I am content, so far as miscarriage is concerned, to leave my case there. I was very glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman accepted the idea that primitive ideas of retribution
    and atonement must now be abandoned by our community. All of us accept the idea that, as he said, today there can be no primitive appeal to revenge. I was very glad to note that, but then I noticed that he went on to make his justification for the retention of capital punishment in what was for me an argument so familiar that I think custom has staled it. It is an argument which I
    know the right hon. Gentleman has consistently put forward all the time I have known him and have known of his work. He has been consistent in opposition to changes of this knd. He has not budged an inch. His position is that a justification of capital
    1012
    punishment is its protection of our society. He claimed that there was in this House a fair measure of agreement on the deterrent effect of capital punishment. Put in that way, yes, but is that the way to put it, because when we talk of capital punishment being a reinforcement of our social order, as the right hon. Gentleman did, we are not talking of capital punishment being a deterrent in the sense that all the other penal sanctions which we employ are deterrents?
    The point about the use of capital punishment is that it is a deterrent of quite special force which cannot possibly be exercised by any alternative form of punishment that society can impose. It is the quality of special deterrence that marks out the penalty of death from all other punishments, just as murder itself is marked out as a special thing from all other crimes. It is this quality of special deterrence that we on this side absolutely challenge. Of course, it cannot be proved by any considerations existing in this country whether there is any validity in that idea of special deterrence or not, but there is ample proof in the experience of other countries, as I shall try to show in a moment.
    However, there is something in this country which we can put up against the assumptions, the opinions, the beliefs on which the right hon. Gentleman bases his case. He cannot say, in the face of the facts, that capital punishment is a special deterrent because it stops murder. He cannot say that capital punishment stops the murder of policemen. Since 1938 up to today, as the Home Secretary will no doubt presently tell us, there has been a marked increase in the volume of crime and an increase in the volume of murder. There has been a marked increase in the volume of wounding which is a crime associated in this connection with the crime of murder.. Capital punishment has been frequently exercised every year throughout that period, but it has not managed to stop that increase in the volume. It may be argued that if we get rid of capital punishment, that volume of crime will be bound to increase again, and perhaps it may be argued that it will get out of all manageable bounds and proportions.
    On this it is relevant to remember one very important thing. This belief, this opinion—because that is all it is—is in

    1013
    the field of hypothesis, as the right hon. Gentleman Said. The truth of this hypothesis cannot be demonstrated except in one way, and that is the way proposed by our Clause—to try it. We must try it in order to find out if the fears of the right hon. Gentleman have any basis in fact. Let me remind him that this appeal to fear—the argument that violent punishment is the essential and right thing to apply in the treatment of violent crimes—was the fear that dominated the whole structure of criminal law in this country 150 years ago when we hanged people for 220 crimes, but for 130 years, since Sir Samuel Romilly first rose in this House in the disordered and troubled times which existed following the Napoleonic Wars, we have smashed and destroyed one after another of the punishments resting on force or violence, and along with that process has come a continual improvement in the standards of conduct of our people.
    I will not suggest that the improvements in the standard of conduct are necessary consequences of the removal of the old violent punishments. There is another reason for it, but what I am inviting the House to notice is that we have come today to the final stage in a long process of destroying the illusion, one of the prevalent, almost universal human illusions, that one can beat violent crime and the violent criminal by oneself adopting violent methods—a complete illusion, as the whole history of Britain for 150 years has shown.
    The second thing I rest upon is the experience of other countries about which the right hon. Gentleman was rather cavalier in his treatment of this side of our case. He said that we do not require to pay too much attention to these countries because their experience and their circumstances are so different from ours that we can safely discard any teaching they may have for us. But is that a true statement? There are more than 30 states and countries in the world today which have had experience of the abolition of capital punishment, in any of them over a long period. They are extremely varied in their history and traditions, their social and economic circumstances. The whole of the Scandinavian countries, a country like Belgium, with a population for its area more dense than it is in this country, the State of Michigan in the United States
    1014
    with its great city of Detroit—are we going to say that a cross-section of all the countries of the world, as this undoubtedly is, in its experience has no lesson for us bearing on an important question of this kind?
    When a test question was put to them all, the reply was unanimous; when they were asked, "After abolition took place in your country, did the volume of murder increase as compared with before abolition? Did criminals more freely resort to arms after abolition than they did before abolition?" In every one of the abolition countries, the experience was the same, the answer was, No. Why should we attempt to discount experience so wide and varied and, in my view, so conclusive? I suggest to the House that on these two grounds—(1) the record of our historic experience in this country and all that it has meant; (2) the widespread experience of so many different countries throughout the world—we have solid grounds for being sure in our minds that to put this Clause on the statute book is a wise and proper thing to do at this juncture.
    I want to conclude on a rather different note. I have tried to make my case and have probably spoken much too long, but as hon. Members know very well, I am no detached, scientifically impartial person on this issue; I am a red-hot partisan, and I make no pretence at all of any soaring to the heights of ideal impartiality. I believe capital punishment is a foul thing. I believe it to be an unmitigated evil in our community, a centre of pollution sending out constantly-spreading ripples throughout our whole community. I believe that every time we hang a criminal guilty of a foul murder, we are striking at the real defences of social order in any community—a high regard for human life and personality that is equally as grave in its effects upon the community as is the crime that it seeks to punish.
    I would say also to the House that this death penalty, of which a defence is being made today, is in itself an anachronism. It is a survival from an older age. It has no place in our modern penal system. In fact, if the argument which the Home Secretary is likely to make, that this is an inopportune time, is true, it is an unfortunate time not only for the abolition of capital punishment but for his whole Criminal Justice Bill. It applies with equal force. Why soften our punishments?

    1015
    Why eliminate the crudities of our previous practice at this abnormal time when we have to use special implements and methods to deter crime? If the argument is valid in the one case, it is equally valid in the other. The death penalty is a survival from an older and, thank God, a past age.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: Will the hon. Member allow me to interrupt?
    Mr. J. Paton: I am sorry, I do not want to give way now because I must finish. The death penalty is the one remaining relic in our penal code of the old system of complete repression which was tried against criminals and so badly failed. I want to suggest to this House, as the representative assembly of a country of free men and women, that instruments of repression have no proper place in the institutions of a free democracy. By their very nature, by their inherent quality, repressive punishments belong to the systems of totalitarian States and not democracies. It was no accident that the chief exponents of violence and severity in the treatment of criminals in modern times were the Nazi and Fascist States. It was no accident that Fascism, when it revived the death penalty in the early '30's, exalted it into a fundamental tenet of the Fascist philosophy. Here is what the Italian Minister of Justice had to say about this—because it is one of the important considerations that we should have in mind as representatives of a democratic people—when introducing the death penalty in Italy:
    "The Fascist conception, according to which the individual is only an infinitesimal and transitory element in the social organisation, so that, therefore, he must subordinate his own interests and his very existence to this organism and to the state which is its juridical organisation … it would be an evident sign of weak juridical sensibility to exhibit aversion to extreme measures of defence against those who display a criminal activity subversive to the essential needs of life and of the political and moral elevation of the State."
    That is a philosophic expression of the essential nature of the death penalty as a part of the Fascist dictatorial structure—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."]—but the reply was given a great deal earlier, again in Italy, by another eminent Italian, because 450 years before the birth of Christ the Roman State abolished the
    1016
    penalty of death for the Roman citizen. Some 500 years later a strong attempt was made to revive it, and this is the answer made by Cicero:
    "Far from us be the punishment of death, its ministers and its instruments. Remove them, not only from the actual operation on our bodies, but banish them from our eyes, our ears, our thoughts; for not only the execution, but the apprehension, the existence, the very mention of these things is disgraceful to a free man and a Roman citizen."
    These are words that I commend to this House today in the important decision it is called upon to make.
    5.40 p.m.
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: I wish that I could find it in my conscience to agree with the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Paton). I confess that the death penalty is probably as repugnant to me as it is to him. Indeed, I remember very clearly joining battle with Mr. Bernard Shaw when he put forward the argument referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis). No one, I think, who has had the smallest experience of the administration of criminal justice would care to speak on this matter without feelings of dislike for what our consciences sometimes make us do, but I am convinced, and I think it is my duty to tell the House why I am convinced, that the new Clause is wrong.
    There is one argument which can neither be countered nor proved, and, unfortunately, it is one of the matters which will determine one way or another, and which will quite rightly determine, one way or another, the way in which votes are cast in this Debate. Of course, if it be true that human life is such a sacred thing that it is always in all circumstances wrong to take it, then we ought to abolish the death penalty and we ought to abolish it now, because there can be no time at which, if an act is wrong per se, it ought to be continued, and that was fundamentally the argument, or, at any rate, as I thought, the underlying argument, behind the peroration of the hon. Member for Norwich. But I do not think so. I, too, think that human life is sacred. And if, like the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), I thought its sanctity would be reinforced, at this time above all others, by the abolition of this penalty, I should be speaking for its abolition. But, as a matter of fact. I believe, and, as I propose

    1017
    to prove the great majority of the people in this world, and particularly in this country, also in fact believe, that, although human life is sacred, it has not that indefeasible sanctity which makes it wrong in all circumstances and for all persons to take it. That is the assumption upon which we have been acting for years past, and it seems to me that, although such a proposition, one way or another, is incapable of proof, we must endeavour to give ourselves some kind of consistency of conduct in this matter.
    We have just concluded a great world war, in which we took millions of human lives quite deliberately in order to protect things which we thought more valuable. We may have been wrong; indeed, the hon. Member for Norwich thinks we were wrong, because he holds religious views which I sincerely respect but from which I differ as sincerely. We have just been hanging our defeated enemies after the trials at Nuremberg. The Attorney-General, who is not here to-day, prosecuted them, not as an act of war but as an act of what was claimed to be justice.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Vengeance.
    Mr. Hogg: It is legitimate for those who believe it wrong to take life in all circumstances to describe it as vengeance, but I am asking the House to try to give itself some kind of consistency of moral purpose here. If we were going to say, as some hon. Members think we ought to have said, that it was at all times and in all circumstances wrong to take human life, whatever evil doing the malefactor may have committed, then the time to say so was before Nuremberg and not immediately after. Only two days ago, I saw in "The Times" that we were hanging some more members of the S.S.
    Mr. Stokes: Shame.
    Mr. Hogg: The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) is entitled to say "Shame." His attitude has been consistent throughout. I only say that I do not agree. I only say that, if we are to take the attitude which we should take if we passed this Clause, we might cover ourselves with humiliation, and I really believe that this Clause, passed at this time would clothe us with dishonour and humiliation.
    1018
    And yet I wonder, if we subtract the moral arguments, which I respect but from which I differ, and if we conceive that there may be circumstances in which it is right for one human being to kill another, how many of the hon. Members who have brought forward, perfectly sincerely, such a mass of arguments would have a shred left with which to clothe their backs? Whenever I have discussed this problem before, and even now, when I have heard it discussed in this most honourable assembly, I have always been convinced that the arguments which are brought against the death penalty, subtle, persuasive, coherent and discursive as they are, are ultimately brittle, and would not have been put forward by anybody after serious consideration if those persons had not, at the same time, entertained, sometimes expressly and sometimes not, a hankering after the moral argument that in all circumstances it is wrong for a human being to take human life.
    Take, for instance, the argument put forward by the hon. Member for Norwich, which stated that, when we abolished hanging for sheep stealing, no evil consequences came of it, and that the same arguments against the reform were put forward then as are put forward now. The judges, as the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne said—I think wrongly—are always wrong. The argument is that they objected at the time to many of the softenings and alleviations of the penal code which must appear to all people now to be commonplace. But where does that argument lead? The truth is that this argument, and, as I shall show, most of the arguments, if they prove anything at all, prove a great deal too much to be cogent in this case, because they are arguments which can be adduced in support of the abolition, not merely of the death penalty for murder, but in support of the abolition of any penalty of any kind. They would be just as cogent—if they are cogent at all—if they were used in support of the abolition of the punishment of imprisonment; we, who argue against such a proposal would get up and say, "Oh, but we think that is dangerous, and you will encourage crime." And our opponents would then retort, just as they do to-day "Oh, but that is just what was said when we abolished hanging for stealing sheep. That is what was said throughout the centuries by the judges—and they were

    1019
    always wrong." And if those arguments are cogent today, they could be cogent then.
    The truth about this matter is surely this. The arguments on both sides have a certain cogency and weight, but it is our duty to weigh them in relation to the particular issue before us and not in relation to other issues at other times, when they may or may not have been wrongly applied. When the hon. Member for Norwich says that he thinks it is fundamentally wrong to meet violence with violence, he does not really mean what he says. He is not in favour of abolishing the police or the criminal courts; he does not propose to take away the punishment of imprisonment for life; on the contrary, he is imposing it, and if violently apprehending a man, trying him against his will and imprisoning him for the course of his natural life is not meeting violence with violence, I do not know what language means.
    We are told that the death penalty is no deterrent to murder. This argument which came from my hon. Friend the Member
    for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) implies, of course, that a great many murders are in fact committed. It is obviously true, however, that that argument, if it proves anything at all, also proves too much, since, if it be true to argue, as I frankly confess I am sometimes disposed to think, that because crimes are still committed although we continue to punish criminals, punishment is no deterrent, then we should abolish all punishment. We should abolish imprisonment, which is one of the most horrible punishments ever inflicted by one man upon another.
    If, in fact, it is right to impose in certain circumstances these violent infringements of another man's personality and liberty, then we cannot effectively distinguish in principle the death penalty from other punishments. All are final, all take away a part of a man's personality or his life. We could not give back to Oscar Slater the years during which he had been imprisoned just by paying him a few pounds when, at the end of it, he came out a broken man. Once it is conceded that society has these powers and rights and must use them in certain cases, it is not sense to pretend to try to differentiate in principle between
    1020
    one infringement of human personality and another. The thing becomes a practical problem and has to be dealt with on practical considerations.
    Mr. McGovern: Although there was a grave miscarriage of justice in the case of Oscar Slater, is it not true that he was alive, but that, if the law had been allowed to operate, he would have been dead?
    Mr. Hogg: If the law had been allowed to operate as in England, he would have gone free at the very beginning. Although I should absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman that the finality of the death penalty is an argument for insisting on every precaution that one can humanly take to make certain that no mistake is made, it is not ultimately an argument, if it be proved beyond the doubt of reasonable men that an offence has been committed, for rejecting the penalty altogether. I think that that is to carry scrupulousness to the point of excess.
    I now come to the practical questions which ought to bear upon our judgment today. I confess at once that I am not convinced—and I never have been convinced—by the arguments from statistics on either side. They are at first sight imposing because of their number and because of the amount of research which has gone into their collection. In my mind, at any rate, they are not cogent on this point. They are, in fact, as little cogent as I should feel I was being if I were to point out that the criminal statistics for Scotland are noticeably worse than those of England, and try to draw from that a deduction as to the deterrent effect of the death penalty. The truth is that the circumstances which lead to the commission of crime are very much more complicated than are generally recognised by partisans on either side—sometimes, at any rate.
    It is, of course, not true that punishment by itself, either the savagery of it or the fact of it, is a deterrent in many cases. If it were, crime would have been abolished many centuries ago. The certainty of detection is perhaps a more important factor in many cases. The sense of oneness in any particular society is possibly an even more important factor. It is also true that the kind of social consciousness about good behaviour, the kind of gentleness with which men treat

    1021
    one another in society, is probably the most important and the least tangible of all the factors.
    It is also true that over a long period of time, during the 100 years in which there were no major wars, human society did, in fact, become a great deal gentler. Over all that period, in all societies, whether or not they had the death penalty, the statistics for violent crime noticeably diminished. I cannot draw from that, however, any general conclusion about the death penalty, although I have examined the figures which have been put forward from time to time about the contiguous States in America, because I reflect, in that case, that the certainty of detection varies a very great deal from State to State and not always in proportion to whether the death penalty is retained or abolished; and that the general state of lawlessness in America is a Federal rather than a State question. There are a great many more factors, which it would be impossible to enumerate on an occasion like this, which go to affect the result.
    Nor would I be likely to be persuaded by any except the most careful and conclusive analysis of any figures which could be produced on either side if this Motion were to be carried tonight. If it were shown, for instance, that murders had doubled during the course of the next five years, some people would say that was proof that the experiment had failed. I should not be very much convinced because the numbers are in any case so small. If, on the other hand, it were shown that five policemen had been shot where ten were shot before, I should not be absolutely certain that that proved that the experiment had succeeded. I think that the statistics, patiently, honourably and scrupulously collected as they have been, ultimately only fuddle us when we are applying our minds to a question of this kind.
    Mr. Paton: There is a question I would like to put to the hon. Member for Oxford, and I am grateful to him for giving way. Would he agree that the general conclusion to which one is driven inescapably, from any long continued study of statistical records from all countries, is that the absence or existence of the capital penalty has no effect on crime at all?
    Mr. Hogg: No. I should agree with the hon. Member for Norwich that one is driven to a purely negative conclusion, which I was trying to state, namely, that no useful inference is to be drawn on either side. If I were to apply my mind in my own way to this problem, I should look into my own heart. I may be speaking only for myself, but I do not believe that I am constituted any differently from criminals. I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen are or not, but I do not believe that I am.
    An Hon. Member: "There but for the grace of God …"
    Mr. Hog g: But for the grace of God. If, however, I were a professional burglar with a long series of sentences of penal servitude behind me, if I were going out tonight to rob and to steal and I had to ask myself whether or not I should take a gun, my mind would work in this way: "The gun may destroy the one witness who will convict; it may represent my sole chance of escape; I know that, if I am found out, I go to penal servitude for a long period anyhow, perhaps even for life. Why, therefore, not carry a gun as a policy of insurance?" I know that is what I should think, and I know that is the way the temptation would present itself to me. What I should do would depend upon whether I yielded to the temptation. I certainly believe that there are people who think in that way, and so long as I am convinced of that I shall be against the total abolition of the death penalty.
    It is said, of course, that burglars and other human beings are not wholly logical people, that they do not reason in this pragmatic kind of way. I think that they are not always logical, but that argument again proves too much. They are sometimes logical, and if they were not there would be no purpose in punishing them at all. I, myself, am totally convinced that it is, in the end, not sense to pretend that the provision of a different kind of penalty attached to the taking of human life does not, in fact, tend to protect the officers of the law and the innocent citizens in their beds from armed assault.
    I am hound to confess that neither Dr. Jung nor the statistics will, in fact, con-

    1023
    vince me of the contrary. I am not persuaded by the psychological argument presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, which is apparently that murderers such as commit the offence are attracted into committing it by the publicity. There may be such, although oddly enough, a man who came to me yesterday told me a most convincing story of how he personally had actually been deterred from committing murder by the death penalty and nothing else. As I say, there may be such, but the fact is that there are a great many more who are deterred from added crimes of violence superimposed on crime by the knowledge that a different kind of penalty will be imposed upon them if they commit them.
    I must close by accepting the argument put forward by the Home Secretary when he spoke before on this subject. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne ridiculed the argument that it would be wrong to do it now and possibly right to do it at some other time. I am not sure that I agree. I thought that at any rate the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne provided the answer to his own argument out of his own speech, when he said that penalties must be relative to the general state of social consciousness and conscience at the time. I believe, much as it grieves me to say it, that we are going into a period when human life is not reckoned so sacred as it was, and when the penalties which attach to the taking of it must, to be effective deterrents, be at any rate kept more in consonance with the minds of potential criminals, from amongst whom I do not exclude myself.
    That being so, I am bound to say, weighing the whole matter up, that having seen, as I have seen, the striking evidence of the increase in crime, particularly of crime of a violent character, since the war, and having heard my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), and having heard the considered opinion of the Home Secretary, which I think must be taken to be the view of those advising him as well as of himself, I do not believe that this new Clause is one which ought to be passed. If it should be passed, and if it should be successful, no one would be happier than I, but I believe that if it is passed, those who have voted for it will have to answer in their conscience for at least as much
    1024
    as we who vote against it will have to do if it is rejected.
    6.5 p.m.
    Mr. Donovan: I wish to do two things. First, I wish to make a short speech, and second, to address myself more particularly to those Members of the House who are not governed by emotion in this matter, but who are quite prepared to approach it in an objective spirit and take an objective decision. Therefore, the deep convictions, founded on conscience and morals, which make some Members on both sides of the House immovable on this issue, will remain unshaken after everythig I have to say, because I want to approach the matter in terms of expediency alone.
    Normally, a Minister, with all the resources of fact and figure of his Department behind him, commands an influence in these Debates beyond the reach of a back bencher. For that reason I should have liked the case for the retention of the death penalty to have been deployed at an early stage in this Debate by the Home Secretary. I feel, for that reason, that a slightly unfair advantage will accrue to my right hon. Friend if he is the last speaker upon this Motion, because we know that his opinions upon this matter have changed. They may have changed because of his own conclusions, based upon his experience in his office, but they have certainly changed also because of the impact of other opinions on his own and those other opinions must be those of the officials in the Home Office and the police.
    I am one of those who do not think that we should flout expert opinion, but I am also one of those who think that expert opinion is not always infallible. I think that the right approach is to give expert opinion its due weight but to come to the other evidence on the other side with an open mind, and then come to one's own conclusions upon an impartial consideration of the two. Because expert opinion, particularly in this
    matter of the effect of lessening the severity of punishment, has been noticeably wrong on more than one occasion. This is a field where what in prospect would seem to be a paradox turns out to be the result in actual fact. We have not, however, heard the Home Secretary, but we have heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), who had

    1025
    a long experience at the Home Office. He has deployed arguments which I think it is not necessary to traverse in detail because the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) with his usual habit of cogency and compression, has put them all into the one instance which he himself gave. He said, "If I were a burglar and I were going out tonight to commit a burglary, and I said 'Shall I take a gun?' my answer would be, 'No, because though I might shoot the only witness who would convict me, if I am convicted I shall hang, whereas otherwise I should simply go to penal servitude.'" That argument is simply that murders will, or may, increase if this proposal is carried.
    The answers which occurred to me as the hon. Member was speaking—and I am neither an expert nor a propagandist in this matter—were these: that these crimes of violence which the hon. Member would not commit are a small fraction of the total of murders, and, therefore, one cannot base a true conclusion upon what he might or might not do. The second thing is that according to what the Home Secretary has said on another occasion there are people who do go out to commit murders who do not think as the hon. Member would, because apparently burglars are carrying more arms today.
    Suppose, however, that he did take a gun, and suppose that he did shoot the only witness, what would his attitude be towards the police officers who came to arrest him? Might it be the same as that of the murderer of Police Constable Edgar? Might he lie in wait for them, as he did, with a gun under his pillow, ready to shoot anyone who came to try to arrest him, because he knew he himself would be killed if he were arrested? It struck me at the time as a most impressive circumstance that there would have been not one police officer killed, but three, if it had not been for the resource, skill, and a certain amount of good fortune, on the part of the officers who went to arrest the murderer of Police Constable Edgar, and he would have tried to shoot them also because of the existence of the death penalty.
    I do not scout the hon. Member's view or the experts' view, but I want to turn to the evidence and opinions the other way and, at the same time, to keep my mind perfectly open. The other evidence is that some 12 other countries have
    1026
    abolished capital punishment, that six States of the United States of America have done the same, and the universal experience, I read, is that the murder rate has gone down afterwards. The danger of reasoning to conclusions which do not inevitably
    follow from the premises is not a danger that anyone need impress upon me. Every member of my profession has to learn that lesson, and to learn it fairly soon and sharply, if he is ever to convince anybody whom he wishes to convince.
    Therefore, I listened with care and attention to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities when he dealt with this matter. I listened in order to detect, if I could, that differentiating factor in other countries which would make even the trial of this experiment unsafe in this country. I am bound to say that I did not hear it. I heard a good deal of generalisation about how different those other countries were in climate and outlook, and how there were no large cities with slums which, in fact, is not the case, because there are large cities with slums in Belgium and in Switzerland. Therefore, when the hon. Member for Oxford got up, knowing how he will face with courage every point which may tell against him, I thought that he would develop that point at some length; but he said not a word about it.
    It is in these circumstances that, as one of these people who are not swayed by emotions upon this matter, I am called upon to give my vote. I want to do what is best for the country at large: so does everybody else in this House. In this matter sincerity does not reside solely on one side of the House or the other. Everybody wants to do what is best for the people. I imagine that nobody wants capital punishment for its own sake. Nobody wants to retain it except as a grim necessity. If we can get rid of it and of all the morbid associations which cluster round it, so much the better.
    The question with which most of us are concerned is whether it is safe to do it. Approaching it in that view, how can I decide, when the universal experience of mankind wherever capital punishment has been abolished or suspended is that murders decrease, that I must vote against a similar experiment being tried in this country? I find it extremely difficult to square that with my conscience. I say to

    1027
    hon. Members in all parts of the House who perhaps have not made up their minds completely in this matter and who are willing to be swayed not by emotion, but by rational argument, that if the evidence available reasonably supports the view that the killing of fewer murderers will mean the killing of fewer victims, then, surely, it is our duty, before God and man, to give this change a trial.
    6.16 p.m.
    Mr. Maude: I feel in some ways that it is an honour to follow the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester (Mr. Donovan). Obviously he has given great care to the matter. Perhaps he will allow me to say, and I hope that he will smile when I say it, that although we are of the same profession—and we shall not be suspected of being legalistic on this occasion—nevertheless I am inclined to think that possibly a practice in the law of Income Tax does not lead one to quite the same contact with murderers and other horrible people such as I experience in a much lower court.
    Mr. Donovan: I would like to correct what I think is a popular fallacy. I have experience of the law of Income Tax but I have done a fair amount of criminal work and I sit occasionally as chairman of a criminal court.
    Mr. Maude: The hon. and learned Member must not take me too seriously. I know of course, that he sits as a chairman of a criminal court. Nevertheless, I was trying to put myself on a rather lower standard. The hon. and learned Gentleman has talked of the Home Secretary having changed his mind—apparently he has—and we know to what he refers. I would like to say that I have changed my mind. Ever since this Bill was introduced I have thought about this matter very carefully with a sense of considerable responsibility. The House will realise that, so far as I and my colleagues are concerned—I do not think that it will affect the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, but it will certainly affect me —the probabilities are that, as the years go by, I shall have to take part in prosecutions for murder. I may be defending and I may be prosecuting. I have had that in mind, and I have thought it out.
    I have made up my mind to vote tonight against this new Clause. I do that
    1028
    fully realising that time and time again in the future I shall remember that I have done that. I shall remember that, if in fact this new Clause does not come into force, when the black cap is put on and the death sentence is passed, I shall be partly responsible for it. It is important that I should understand that in my own mind and that I should not flinch from it. I have made up my mind that what I intend to do is right for several reasons. A change is now proposed. It is essential that those who propose the change should satisfy this House beyond all reasonable doubt that as a result of that change, and following that change, the situation will not deteriorate. It is up to them to satisfy us all conscientiously, with a feeling of at least the same responsibility as that with which I am faced in my profession—no less—that the position is not likely to deteriorate. I do not find that that is so.
    Some hon. Members may possibly have been applying their minds, though not in great detail, to some of the literature that has been sent out to us on the subject, such as that which I received yesterday from the National Council for the Abolition of the Death Penalty. It is unfortunate if any hon. Member has read, for instance, the passage there about how the Select Committee was appointed in 1929 and 1930 and how it recommended that a Bill should be introduced providing for the abolition of the death penalty for an experimental period of five years, if in fact the hon. Member has not had time—and he may well not have had time—to take the trouble to look at the Report of the Select Committee. He would have found, after a great deal of trouble, if he had looked at that Report, that the Committee divided hopelessly. Very nearly half the Committee, six Tory members, walked out of the Committee and had no part whatever in these recommendations, and the Liberal Party, as usual, divided. It came as a shock to me when I looked it up today. It is really misleading to think that an undivided Select Committee recommended anything of the sort.
    In addition to that, I cannot help feeling that any of us who have had time to go through the Minutes of Evidence before the Select Committee on Capital Punishment would find that there is one witness, a man who was a humane and lovable being, Alexander Paterson, took another view. Alexander Paterson was a friend

    1029
    of the criminals, I believe, in the very best sense, and did as much as anyone I know to make changes which work for the better and for the best. He referred to one thing which was spoken of by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), the horrors of imprisonment. I do not believe that is well understood by the House. There are horrors of imprisonment, and I cannot do better than to quote Alexander Paterson. Before quoting, may I say that what is suggested is that instead of execution something is to take place which is very horrible indeed, Paterson says, in speaking of conditions of prison sentences:
    "… I am inclined to view confinement in the twilight of prison life for 20 years or more as being grounds of humanity something worse than death itself. If the Committee so desire, I can illustrate this point."
    Indeed, so he did. It is perfectly true that some hon. Members have the idea that the period is to be 15 years, but it is an appalling state of affairs to be kept in prison for 15 years. Paterson also says:
    "If so slight an alternative to the death sentence is considered to be lacking in deterrence, and terms of 20 years are inevitable, then the choice is between a penalty that destroys the physical life and one that will in the vast majority of cases permanently impair something more precious than the life of the physical body."
    I take those matters into account and I think it important that one should evaluate this thing correctly.
    It is not right to go into the Division Lobby tonight with the feeling that murders are being committed by the hundred or thousand all over the country. The change which would be effected by this new Clause would in fact result in an average of 11 persons per year not being hanged. From 1939 to 1945 the figures show that an average of 11 per year were hanged. It is up to those proposing this new Clause to satisfy me that in fact there is no probability at all that as a result of taking away what I believe to be a great deterrent not even one, two or three more people are going to be murdered. That seems to be absolutely essential. I shoulder the responsibility in this matter although I loathe and detest and hate hanging, and I hate all the agitation. It will not help me professionally to say I hate murder cases and loathe them, and recently I have taken part in very few of them. I detest them, but I cannot
    1030
    help feeling it would be a very wicked thing for me if in fact I voted for something which I did not believe brought safety—
    Mr. Mathers Mr. Mathers (Linlithgow) rose—
    Mr. Maude: I am sorry, I cannot give way—and found in fact that what I had done was to bring such a state of affairs into existence that there was an increase in the number of murders. I know that some hon. Members will never believe that, but I hope that some will be convinced at this late hour. I have not the slightest doubt that what are vulgarly called "the rope" and the "long drop"—all those things it is much better to speak of in these rather melodramatic terms—are feared by criminals, terribly feared by criminals. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) said, practically in his opening sentence, that he could not understand why the death penalty should be a greater deterrent than any other. The answer surely is that
    "that bourne from which no traveller returns"
    is very frightening indeed.
    It is true that a lot of persons commit murders without having tried to reason the thing out, or to think what an appalling thing being hanged is, but I am certain that others are perfectly able to do so, and moreover do so. When I quote cases in which murders were committed by men, and women too, in spite of the death penalty, it is lunacy not to realise that there are almost certainly other persons of a like standard of mentality who have been deterred by something or other from committing murder. There was Dr. Crippen, Major Armstrong, Smith of the "Brides in the Bath" case, Fox, that awful murderer who evidentially smothered his mother and set the room on fire, Mrs. Bryant, whom I prosecuted with Sir Terence O'Connor and Sir Cyril Asquith—she poisoned her husband with three doses of arsenic—the "cleft chin" murder, Field and Gray who murdered Irene Munroe on The Crumbles.
    People are inclined to think only of the persons who are caught, and they stop thinking about the victims. After all, all these persons were absolutely worthless persons. No evil was done to this world so far as I know by any one person being hanged in all the 25 years I have been at the Bar. I cannot think of one individual by whose hanging the community

    1031
    really genuinely suffered a loss. May I put the matter in this way—think of the thousands who are killed in traffic accidents people who are really worth while, and by whose death we suffer a tremendous loss. Here we are considering the possibility of hanging each year 11 absolutely worthless people who thoroughly deserve what they get. What does a man deserve who puts a British soldier up against a wall and shoots him with his back turned? What does he deserve? Justice surely says, "If in fact you are killed you have nothing to complain of, justice is done." Justice has been done to those people.
    The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) mentioned Norway, Belgium, Holland and Denmark, and pointed out that the death penalty has been abolished there, and it has been abolished recently. What happened in those four countries was that the last execution in Holland was in 1860, the last in Belgium in 1863, the last in Norway in 1875, and the last in Denmark in 1892. So what had been happening was that as the years went by the death penalty had been allowed to go into abeyance gradually. That has been the experience of this country. It has gradually been going into abeyance—gradually coming down and down. We feel our way gradually.
    Scant justice has been done to the present Home Secretary who was reviled, I think, by the hon. Member for Devizes for not being a great and reforming Home Secretary by not being in favour of this Clause. Having watched the question of reprieve, I am inclined to think that we have a Home Secretary who has nothing to be ashamed of—although he can never blow his own trumpet about it, his lips are sealed—in the way he reprieves after convictions of murder. There has been progress in this matter through medical aid, through the mental specialists and so on, and gradually I believe we shall abolish the penalty, but not now. Alexander Paterson again put the position in a very good way when he said, at the end of the recommendations, that what he would like to see was not the abolition but the power to hang gradually falling into abeyance.
    These are the things which chiefly affect me in this matter. I know there are many other points, and one can speak for a
    1032
    long time, but may I finish with one other point? This Bill contains something which has filled me with considerable alarm. Persistent offenders are now going to be faced with being in prison for the long term of 14 years. I must confess that among those persons whom I interview as clients some were extremely unpleasant and violent people of the worst type. I fear that the moment will come when if, in fact, there is no question of the rope and a man has a long record and he knows he is due for 14 years he will get just the term we think is right now for persons who have been reprieved. I understand they do not stop there for life: they stay for something like 14 years.
    People may think it is worth while to kill. I believe if we want to do what is right, we should allow the system to go on as it is now. Let the Home Secretary have his Clause in this Bill: let us try the new method of dealing with persistent offenders and let him have at the present time at the back of him the force that every mother's son knows, not only "Thou shalt not kill" but "If you do you will yourself be killed—and justly so."
    6.34 p.m.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: In his argument the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude) used two propositions, if I understand him. The first is the fairly commonplace argument that on the whole it is more kindly to the murderer to retain capital punishment because the alternative of 20 years' imprisonment —or 15 years, as it may be, subject to good conduct—is too high. That, of course, is the very well-known argument; it is the old argument that one hunts the fox really to oblige the fox.
    His second argument was that capital punishment was a deterrent, because the average murderer was more in fear of capital punishment than he was in fear of the alternative of long-term imprisonment. It seems to me that those two arguments completely cancel out one another. I have a very great personal regard for the hon. and learned Member for Exeter and I do not wish to say anything discourteous about him, but the only other proposition he established was that he disagreed with his clientele. I must say he has been rather unfortunate in his contacts in the exercise of his professional career.
    Mr. Maude: I was not speaking of my professional clients.
    Mr. Hale: I was assuming that the hon. and learned Member was. The hon. and learned Member compared his experiences with those of the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester (Mr. Donovan) and perhaps I may venture in quite a humble and unassuming way to compare my own personal experiences with his. I belong to that branch of the profession which generally happens to come into first personal contact with all classes and who has to deal with them on the basis of their being human beings, has to see them and interview them under prison conditions, and I know something of this problem on its personal basis.
    The hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) in a speech which was obviously sincere, argued the matter on the basis of the sanctity of human life. He argued it, taking one sentence, and an isolated sentence, from the speech of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), but the case was not argued from that point of view. I want to argue the case on the basis of public morality and public ethics, and the effect that the retention of this barbarous principle has on the people associated with it—the people who read about it, the people now in contact with it, our children and our populace generally. In my experience, from the very moment that a man is arrested on a capital charge he becomes a thing apart. He is separately treated and dealt with, and it is almost impossible to talk over the matter with him at all on ordinary terms. It is almost impossible to deal with him on the basis that he is a human being. One might very well have some idea from the facts of the case about the number of his days, and one can number them with some accuracy because one knows just what is going to happen.
    As hon. and learned Members opposite know, he is virtually a hospital patient from the time he is in prison, and from the moment he is sentenced he is watched by two warders who loathe their job—and have loathed it year after year and who have given their evidence before Commissions time after time. They often say that in those days they establish something like friendship with the prisoner, sitting chatting with him through
    1034
    those long, worrying and dark hours. Those are the-men who have to help to drag him to the scaffold, to tear his shirt open, seeing if his heart is heating—ghoulish things which ought to go with the rack and the thumbscrew into the limbo of things we should forget.
    Nuremberg has been mentioned. I do not complain. I want to say frankly that I have much agreement with the views expressed. It may well be that none of us has the right to criticise who did not criticise at the time. In some measure, Nuremberg was a tribute to public indignation and public lust for vengeance, but in connection with this it is right to remember what happened in Belgium. Many years ago they abolished capital punishment, but they have reinstated death—by shooting—in respect only of war crimes for the collaborator and the quisling. That cannot be justified on the ground of any argument about a deterrent effect. There is no question about wanting to deter people from collaborating in any future war in which one's country may be involved. This is a kind of yielding—and one can understand the yielding—to popular sentiment of the moment, to popular lust for vengeance, and the indignation to which the populace is subject.
    In my respectful submission, it is no argument in this case. I would accept what the hon. Member for Oxford says about figures, but I do suggest to him that it is unfair, on the one hand, to say we must disregard figures because they do not convey very much and to say, on the other hand, we must yield to the blandishments of the Home Secretary, who is going to base his argument for retention of the penalty on the crime figures in the last year or two. The hon. Member is looking a little dubious about the proposition I have made; I am hoping we shall have an opportunity of hearing the point on the Floor of the House. So far as I understood the matter, that is the only case that has been made by its supporters. I would disagree with the hon. and learned Member for Exeter in one important respect —it is wrong to say that the onus is upon us to justify an alteration in the law in this respect.
    What is the proposition before the House? The proposition before the House is that we should carry out the recommendation of the Select Committee. After

    1035
    all, it was a unanimous recommendation of everybody who voted. It is quite true, and I do not want to deny the fact, that the whole of the Members from one side in the Committee went out after a disagreement with the Chairman and did not record their votes. However, it was a unanimous vote of the majority of that Committee, including independent Members. There would have been a majority in any event. Therefore, the Report was a favourable Report. We are suggesting today that we should carry out the recommendation of that Committee. It can be suspended at any time. It is open to suspension. [Interruption.] There was no minority report. The recommendation, if we carry it out, can be suspended at any time.
    Sir Ronald Ross: I think J am the only Member in the House who was one of those who went out, and, therefore, I should like to say that the reason we went out was that, there having been a suggestion that there should be a minority report, the Chairman gave the casting vote in deciding that there should not be.
    Mr. Hale: I certainly understand that, and it is exactly as it appears in the Report of the Select Committee. The only point I am making, however, is that the majority of Members of that Committee in fact did unanimously report in favour of this proposal. It is a modest proposal. It does not involve any permanence. It can be altered at any time. It merely suggests that this important social and ethical experiment should be tried. After all, this is no sudden inspiration from the "Keep Left" group, nor is it a new Socialist nostrum. This great social proposal has occupied the attention of our social reformers for upwards of a century. In 1840 there were 90 Members of the House who were prepared to vote in favour of the abolition of capital punishment. That was in the bad old days of public executions, when
    "Thousands of hearts beat horrid hope,
    Thousands of eyeballs lit with Hell,
    Turned one vi ay all to see the rope
    Unslacken as the platform fell."
    The hon. Member for Oxford shakes his head. I am glad he does if he feels the horror of that scene as we do. It is right to do so if we loathe this thing, if this inspires us with detestation,
    1036
    and induces us to turn our heads away from it, and not to look at the hangman and his apparatus, and not to think of the chaplain chanting his psalm as he accompanies the half dead man to the scaffold. If we feel this horror then that is the real reason for abolishing it.
    I believe there is an important aspect of the matter which has remained quite untouched yet in this Debate. In the average prison today there are many hundreds of people incarcerated who are not by any means all criminals, or all of the type of persons about whom the hon. and learned Member for Exeter spoke. Many of them are people who have refused to pay affiliation orders, people who have quarrelled with their wives and refused to keep them, people who have refused to comply with orders to pay debts. The unanimous testimony of all the experienced prison officials associated with this matter is that, by some curious telepathy, from the moment the condemned cell is occupied everybody in the prison knows it. As the people in the prison see the condemned man sitting between two warders in the chapel, everybody realises that this may be that man's last Sunday of his life. I have been assured by a lady who had been serving some time in prison—who ought, in my opinion never to have been there—that the most horrible recollection of her life was seeing a condemned man sitting alone, isolated in the chapel. That was in the presence of women in the prison in the last five years.
    From that moment the whole prison population knows what is happening. They all suffer in consequence. They hear the scaffold being knocked up. On the very day that the execution takes place there is no chapel and no exercise that morning, and they know precisely why, and what is happening. The unanimous testimony of governors of prisons, including the former Governor of Pentonville himself, is that the effect on the prison population is disastrous in the extreme. The men undergo suffering, acute suffering; they suffer neurosis, and moral horror intensified by their very imprisonment. On the night before an execution the accused man sleeps—some accused men do—but if he does he is usually the only person in the whole of the prison who does.
    I have said that this is a matter which has been associated with many names—

    1037
    with the names of Charles Dickens, William Makepeace Thackeray, John Bright, Thomas Hardy, Victor Hugo—great names in literature, great names in politics. This has been a great campaign. Many of us who have de voted many years of thought and study to this matter, and many of us who feel more sincerely, perhaps, on this issue than on many issues, and do approach it, perhaps with a certain fanaticism—the fanaticism begotten of holding strong views for many years—have looked forward to this day with very real hope that at long last the efforts of those pioneers, and the efforts of those people who have devoted many hours in many weeks during many years to this campaign, would at last be rewarded. We were hoping that there would be a free vote of the whole House, a vote according to the consciences of Members. I am still hoping to hear that there will be, and I should be glad to hear that now. I should be glad to hear that the Whips on the Conservative side will not be put on, and that on the Conservative side there will be freedom to vote according to conscience.
    Mr. Osbert Peake: There is that freedom.
    Mr. Hale: I am very grateful for that assurance. Then the position remains as I understand it, subject to the announcement of the Home Secretary that everybody is free to vote according to his conscience, except members of the Government, most of whom have committed themselves in the past to the abolition of capital punishment. I appreciate the difficulties, and no one of us has any wish to say anything embarrassing on this point. However, I would say that it may be that when the idealism of the forties gives way to the empiricism of the sixties, there will be solid ground for thinking the forties were right, there will be solid ground for thinking the sixties wrong; there may even be solid ground for considering that the attitude of Ministers on this question now, in this matter of progressive idealism, is as much a subject for medical explanation—an explanation of their change of mind on this matter—as the mentality of the criminals whom we are so anxious to reform by remedial treatment.
    One speaker—and only one—has said that those of us in favour of reform forget the victims of murderers and the injustice
    1038
    done to the injured feelings of bereaved relatives deprived of breadwinners, husbands or fathers. That is not my experience. It is my experience that the decency of human nature rises above these considerations. One of the most horrible and most senseless of political crimes ever committed was the Phoenix Park murders, when Burke and Lord Frederick Cavendish were murdered in Dublin. Burke's sister, who was a nun, actually ministered to the condemned men in prison, while the principal accused went to the scaffold holding an ivory crucifix presented to him by Lady Frederick Cavendish. We ask today that, in that sense of nobility, hon. Members should approach this problem, and give this great proposal a trial, in the interests of human decency, morality and progress. If we try it and it fails, we need not blame ourselves for having made a great experiment.
    6.50 p.m.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: It is not easy to follow the moving speech of the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale), but this is a subject which has many aspects, and must be spoken on in many different tones. I am not, like the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton), a hot partisan in this matter. On the contrary, I have always been deeply impressed with the complexity of the question. Though I think that, in the main, my convictions have remained steady, there have been times when some event has a little shaken me, when I began to wonder whether men generally wiser than myself were not wiser than myself in this respect. But tonight I am a convinced supporter of this Motion. I listened with profound interest to the very impressive speech made by the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), and I am sorry that he is not in the Chamber at this moment, because there are one or two points which he made on which I desire to comment.
    First, let me say something about a suggestion made by the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude). He has said that it devolves on the supporters of the Motion to convince the House that if it be adopted the position will not deteriorate. Anyone who asks that is asking the impossible. When an experiment is tried the result can never be predicted

    1039
    with irrefragable certainty. We can only point to experience of other countries; and I think that the hon. and learned Member went a little far, as has already been said, in discounting the experience of so many countries where the death penalty has been abolished. I agree at once that that experience is not conclusive; but, on the other hand, it is by no means negligible. It at the very least creates a presumption —and in my mind a very strong presumption—that we could abolish the death penalty without any evil consequences following.
    The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities made one or two remarks which seemed to me extremely dubious. He quoted—as I gathered with full approval—a remark by Sir Archibald Bodkin to the effect that the law of this country could not swing to and fro; that it was built up by a steady and stable body of opinion. I am no lawyer, but I have always supposed that the law of this country had been built up by a continuous and progressive series of amendments and reforms. If that doctrine of Sir Archibald Bodkin's were to be accepted, we, as Members of Parliament, might as well spend three months in this House and nine months on vacation, because it is to legislative measures—the making and changing of laws—that our time is largely devoted.
    I was much more concerned with what the right hon. Gentleman said about the difficulty of finding any substitute for capital punishment. In that connection I was not clear whether he was implying anything regarding the views of Sir Alexander Paterson—whom I had known for so long—on the subject of capital punishment. I should be very sorry to think that the House assumed, without a definite statement to that effect, that Sir Alexander was in favour of the retention of capital punishment. That, however, is by the way. The right hon. Gentleman said: "You send a man to prison for 15 years instead of hanging him, and at the end of 15 years this dangerous murderer will be launched upon the community again." He referred to 15 years as a short period. I suppose he was speaking relatively, because it seems to be a very considerable period. I would point out that it is so long a period that no one can predict what will be the state of a
    1040
    man's mind 15 years, or even 10 years hence; and all the reformative value of prison will stand for nothing if he comes out the same man that he went in.
    But there is much more to it than that. What distinction is to be drawn on the ground of either morality—if such a word can be used in such a connection—or public danger between a man who successfully attempts murder and a man who unsuccessfully attempts it. The logic of the situation appears to me perfectly clear: either we should hang the man who unsuccessfully attempts murder, or we should refrain from hanging the man who successfully attempts murder. The motive is the same; the endeavour is the same; and the danger to the community is the same when the man is released from prison at the end of 15 years. Indeed, I would say that the danger from the actual murderer was less, because he would have had something preying on his mind, and he would be more likely to change in those 10 or 15 years than the man who atempted the murder but had not the guilt of a corpse upon his conscience.
    During this Debate we have agreed that everything comes down to the question whether capital punishment is indispensable as a deterrent. Apart from that, the ground can be quickly cleared. To take human life by violence is, as we are all agreed, a horrible and hideous crime. To take human life by due process of the law is still horrible and still hideous, and can be justified only if no other possible alternative offers. I am bound to say that in a measure so reformative as this, and with a Home Secretary so imbued with the spirit of reform, it is a grave matter that capital punishment should be retained. We stand here on the threshold of the unknown. We cannot know what possibilities of repentance and reform exist beyond the grave. There is an awful finality in death. We must confine ourselves within the limits of what we do know and ask ourselves whether we should so treat a man that this possibility of repentance and reform should be taken from him by hanging him, or whether we should send him to prison so that at any rate the possibility remains.
    We have been told that we who support the Motion are thinking only of the murderer and not of the victim. Well, the victim, unhappily, is dead: there is nothing to be done for the victim. The

    1041
    murderer remains, and the problem of his treatment remains with us. As the hon. Member for Oldham has so impressively reminded us, the whole atmosphere and appurtenances of the execution are horrible and demoralising to all concerned. And not the least that awful time of waiting and watching by warders, day and night, of every movement, almost every thought, until the moment of execution comes. It is not going too far, I think, to describe that as judicial barbarism.
    Once again the question presents itself: is it essential to do that in order that the community may be protected? Before we answer that question finally it is desirable to consider the scale of murder in this country. The last thing one could desire is to make light of murder, or of the gravity of the crimes committed in our midst. But I ask hon. Members to consider certain figures. In 1937, 87 people died by murder, and in the same year 6,633 were killed on the roads of this land—and the extinction was just as final and irrevocable in the one case as in the other. In the one case, no doubt there is dramatisation: a child of eight is murdered, and may get a full column on the front page of the newspapers. In the other, three lines are sufficient to record that a child of eight was knocked down by a lorry on the Great West Road, and died of injuries shortly afterwards. In 1946, 150 people died by murder, and 5,062 people were killed on the roads.
    But for a moment let us look at the question from another angle: We have been reminded how few the executions are. In 1947, in England and Wales there were 27 executions; in 1946, there were 30. In other words, if capital punishment had not existed in 1946 and 1947, 57 men would be in prison today, alive, who are now dead. Can it be argued that the fact that those 57 men have been hanged makes all the difference to the security of this community in the future? I find it very hard to believe that. Capital punishment may be claimed as a deterrent, and this can be argued to and fro and up and down, according to every point of view, without reaching a conclusion. The satisfaction required by the hon. and learned Member for Exeter cannot be given. There is only one way of putting this matter to the proof, and that is by experiment.
    1042
    That, surely, is justification for the Motion?
    In this Motion there seem to me to be great possibilities and no considerable dangers. Were the Motion accepted, I cannot imagine that when this Bill is on the Statute Book the number of murders would suddenly leap up. If that happened, if, for example, the number were doubled, the remedy lies in Parliament's own hands. What Parliament has done Parliament can undo. There is no need for the experiment to run for the full five years if that becomes obviously to the public danger. No Home Secretary could come to the House and tell us that the number of murders had been doubled, and not be able to get the House to agree to the revocation of this Motion. The record of this House in this matter has been consistent and honourable. The vast number of capital offences which existed in the 18th and
    19th centuries has been gradually reduced, and tonight there is a chance to crown all that has been done by our predecessors here. I trust most earnestly that hon. Members, in the exercise of their free vote, will make that consummation possible.
    7.0 p.m.
    Mr. Derek Walker-Smith: The compelling reason which induces me to trespass tonight on the patience of the House is that, while I am a supporter of this Clause which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) and other hon. Members, I feel that my position and motives are perhaps rather different from those of some of the hon. Members with whom I am associated in supporting it. I cannot claim any of the fanaticism in regard to this matter which has been confessed or proclaimed by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale), and which has shone forth in the very eloquent speeches made by himself, by the hon. Members for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton), Nelson and Colne, and others. I do not take the view that it is necessarily wrong, on religious or other grounds, to forfeit life for taking life. I would not support any Clause which proposed the total, irrevocable abolition of the death sentence, and if this Clause is carried and becomes incorporated in the law of the country, I shall approach the question in five years' time with a completely open mind as to whether the ex-

    1043
    perimental period should be continued, or whether it should be revoked and we should return to the present situation.
    I would not necessarily have advocated in ordinary circumstances the suspension even of the death penalty before the introduction of the Criminal Justice Bill, but I feel most strongly—and this is my prime and cardinal reason for supporting this Clause—that it would be extremely illogical in the present situation not to suspend the death sentence. After all, the House is committed not merely to the suspension of corporal punishment, but to its abolition. I cannot see that this House should, in these circumstances, logically deny even the suspension of capital punishment.
    In my view, capital punishment has a higher claim than corporal punishment to the attention of the House, for two main reasons. First, the range of offences to which the penalty of capital punishment applies, and the number of instances in which it is inflicted, are both appreciably less than in the case of corporal punishment. I see from the Command Paper on criminal statistics for England and Wales that 172 sentences to corporal punishment were imposed in the seven years from 1939 to 1945 by the assize courts, and a far greater number of sentences to whipping by the magistrates' courts, whereas, in the comparable period, only 82 executions were carried out in respect of sentences imposing the death penalty. I submit it is clear from that that the danger to the community of a wrong decision is much less in the case of suspension of the death penalty than it would be in the case of corporal punishment. That being so, it seems that the House is bound in logic to make this experiment with regard to the death penalty.
    The other reason which brought me
    to my present conclusion is the unique nature of capital punishment. Briefly, the object of punishment—I believe it is commonly agreed—is partly deterrent and partly reformative, and the degree to which these two aspects of punishment apply varies according to the state of civilisation. In a very primitive society the deterrent element must be predominant, and in a near-Utopian society the reformative aspect, in the few cases which would arise, would be the predominating
    1044
    factor. We are in an intermediate state, and we must have regard both to the deterrent and to the reformative aspects.
    It is quite clear that capital punishment is in a class of its own, since we cannot take cognisance of the reformative factor, because capital punishment is obviously a form of punishment which totally denies to the person punished any opportunity for subsequent reformation. Therefore, it has always been recognised as sui generis, or, in ordinary parlance, a unique form of punishment. It seems that the suspension of capital punishment should, in logic, precede and not follow the abolition of corporal punishment. If the question were open, then different considerations might apply, but as it is not, and as the House is committed on the question of corporal punishment, I consider that the Home Secretary has no logical answer to the suggestion that capital punishment should be suspended for an experimental period. Therefore, I shall go into the Lobby in support of this Clause.
    7.7 P.m.
    Mr. Turner-Samuels: The first important point to note is that this issue has never been pursued on party lines. Every time this matter has been before the House over a period of more than 100 years, the House has always hesitated to come to a decision in regard to the abolition of capital punishment. That is very important, because here is an issue in which political matters are not concerned, but where the individual brings his judgment to bear on the subject and has an opportunity to decide for himself and act accordingly. In 1938, when the former Criminal Justice Bill was before this House, a provision to abolish capital punishment was not included. The matter had been very carefully
    considered previously by a Select Committee. In 1938, times were much more favourable for the experiment than now. Notwithstanding that, the House came to a decision that it was unwise, because the case had not been made out sufficiently strong, to remove the death penalty.
    As I understand the case being put forward in favour of the Clause, it is that it is seeking to do something based upon the recommendations of the Select Committee of 193o. As has been pointed out, that is not at all correct. There was a very sharp

    1045
    division, as anyone who has studied the evidence knows, among the Members composing that Select Committee. The recommendation is not one which for that and other considerations has much validity at all for the purpose of arriving at a decision in this Debate. It is true that the Select Committee had evidence before it as to what had happened in other countries, where the death penalty had been abrogated. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Leicester (Mr. Donovan) said he was rather sorry that the Home Secretary had not already taken part in the Debate, so that he could have shown us why the position here should be any different from what the evidence showed it was in other countries.
    That leaves out a very important present element. The prevailing crime situation in the country makes it absolutely imperative that this House should not only act with the greatest care, but should see that nothing it does in any way in present circumstances weakens the sanction of criminal punishment. The first duty of this House is to protect the public. Sentiment is all very well in this matter; I do not think there is anyone here who does not feel repugnance at the taking of life, but I am equally certain that there is no one who does not feel repugnance at the acts of murderers who take innocent lives. But that is not the immediate issue. What we have to decide is how the public can be protected to the maximum degree, and whether any step we may take might weaken that protection.
    Let us see what happens every day in the courts. It is no use trying to discount what the judges say. If this House puts upon the judges the obligation of punishing crime and protecting the public, then it is in duty bound to listen to the advice and experience of those judges. Every day of the week judges are declaring from the bench that crimes of violence are increasing, that the carrying of firearms is becoming increasingly a menace to life, and that they will have to inflict very severe penalties on criminals who commit that sort of crime.
    In those circumstances, and having regard to the unsettled state of the country, which, everyone admits, is leading to serious crime—and this is largely due to the effect of the war; everyone realises that respect for life and property has become very much less since the war—
    1046
    we must take all this into account when we are being asked to lessen and weaken the sanctions of criminal punishment. The Home Office, at this moment, are opposing the abolition of capital punishment because of these very reasons. The Home Secretary has been chided because his support has undergone a change. Previously he was a supporter of abolition; now he is not. It has been said by my Friend the Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) that the only argument that remains in favour of abolition is that it is inopportune. He rather criticised my right hon. Friend for his change of front on that account, but I believe that that is one of the strongest arguments put before this House for opposing abolition of capital punishment. In the light of the increase in crime in the country, to say that that grave factor is not a decisive matter to be taken into consideration is surely a statement bordering on irresponsibility.
    When the evidence was given before the Select Committee which is relied upon so much now, there were no fewer than 19 official witnesses out of 23 who then defended the retention of capital punishment. That must be taken into account, along with the other reasons, in addition, that have not so far been mentioned. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that capital punishment goes. What will follow? We shall substitute for it what is called life imprisonment. What does that mean, in practice? It has been said in the Debate that it means something like 15 years in prison. As a matter of fact, I think it will be found that the average at present is more like 12 years. I think, too, that it will be found that there are many cases where detention has been for an even less period. Let us see in that case where we get. Everyone agrees that imprisonment for longer than 12 years destroys physical life. I say to the House that if we are to get rid of capital punishment we have no right to substitute for it a slower and more refined form of the death penalty. If punishment in prison is made to extend beyond 12 years it destroys physical life, and if we did that we should be doing something which, I submit, this House ought not to countenance.
    Let us see what happens. A man who commits a murder will get, say, 12 years' penal servitude. Let us then look at some

    1047
    Other crimes, because in inflicting punishment we must have a sense of proportion. We cannot say that for murder, which is the worst of all crimes, a man must be given 12 years' imprisonment, and that for a lesser crime a man must be given the same term of imprisonment. For crimes like burglary, housebreaking, forgery, larceny, robbery, or even breaking into premises not dwelling houses, imprisonment may be up to a term of 14 years. Surely, there is no sense of proportion between an act of murder and any crime in any one of these other categories. To say that for the crime of murder a man should receive no more punishment than another would receive for a serious case of burglary, housebreaking, forgery, or a crime of that sort cannot be right. At this time, when there is an increase in crime, what we would be bound to do in those circumstances would be to revise the whole scales of criminal punishment, because the public would not put up with a murderer getting only 12 years' imprisonment and another man receiving the same penalty for a lesser crime.
    Take one or two other examples. There are certain crimes in respect of which the punishment allocated is expressly penal servitude for life, for instance, manslaughter. Surely, the House is not going to be asked to put manslaughter in the same category as murder. If a man in an impulse of temper, or in a brawl of some kind, slays another man, surely that is an entirely different type of crime' from stark murder. Therefore, we cannot put manslaughter in the same category, yet the punishment for manslaughter is penal servitude for life.
    Mr. Emrys Roberts Mr. Emrys Roberts (Merioneth) rose—
    Mr. Turner-Samuels: Let me continue. There is no point in the hon. Member jumping up and down like a jack-in-the-box on the slightest point.
    Mr. Emrys Roberts: It is better than talking like one.
    Mr. Turner-Samuels: That is the maximum punishment for manslaughter, and 12 years is now proposed to be in practice, the maximum punishment for murder, or it may even be less. The hon. Member, like myself is a member of a very honourable profession, and I am sure that he is not going to argue that these maximum punishments mean nothing—that they are
    1048
    merely put there, not intended to be used. They are there as a deterrent, to be used in a proper case.
    The penalty in the cases I have referred to is 14 years and that cannot be denied. It is no use trying to make the point that 14 years mean nothing, because the answer to that is, "why is it there then." The hon. Member's suggestion only brings the law into disrepute. Even in the case of attempted murder, the penalty is penal servitude for life, and if an officer of the Bank of England commits a grave act of embezzlement, the punishment of penal servitude for life may be inflicted. It may be that, to some extent, these are sentences which, in the ordinary way, are not often carried out. But, at the same time, we would have to revise them, if we ask the House to get rid of the supreme sanction which the death penalty imposes and put in its place a sentence of penal servitude for life. That to my mind is a very important consideration. We would have to revise the whole scale of punishments.
    I wonder whether this House is really prepared, and whether the country would desire the House at a time when crimes of violence are increasing, and firearms are more and more being carried by criminals, to revise the whole scale of criminal punishment? I do not think that would be endured for a moment. But that is what the House is facing. If we remove the penalty of capital punishment, and we put murder on the same punishment basis as other categories of much lesser crime, that is what the House is facing, and we cannot get away from it. It is really no use trying to argue on the matter because it is far too plain for any possible argument. That is a consideration that has not been put before the House yet, and I certainly put it forward with all the force I can.
    I would like to say a word on the argument that capital punishment is said to be no deterrent. In my submission, that begs the whole question. It has been said that we cannot say whether it is a deterrent or not, because unless one tries it, one cannot demonstrate it. That may be, but there is also another point to be enforced. We know the number of people who have committed murder in spite of the penalty of capital punishment, but we do not know the number of people who have not dared

    1049
    to commit murder because of it. Are we being asked, in the face of that, to run the risk of removing the penalty of capital punishment, just to find out how this works? To my mind, that seems to be an utterly irresponsible thing to ask this House to do. At a time like this, when crime is rampant and the judges every day of the week are pointing this out to the country, and warning criminals, to come to the House now and ask us to do this seems to me to be completely and totally wrong. It has been said, and I humbly agree, that the onus is upon those who want, at a time like this, to remove that sanction, to satisfy the House beyond any reasonable doubt that that can be done with safety. There is no doubt about it, that unless the House is so satisfied it could not safely do it. I sincerely ask the House to consider whether any practical convincing argument has been put forward today by any of the advocates for the removal of capital punishment that is strong enough to satisfy us, in the discharge of our grave duty to the country, to vote tonight for the abolishment of capital punishment. I have not heard any such argument.
    It has been mentioned that, in any case, not many people are hanged. That is true. It is not a question of the number of people who are hanged, but of the effect which this has on the rest of the community not to commit murder and not to be hanged. Every possible provision is made in practice to meet cases where there are proper circumstances in which hanging ought not to take place. For instance, anyone under 18 years of age is not hanged. The Home Secretary, in the present Bill, is seeking to reform the law, so that when a person under i8 commits a murder, it does not affect the matter if he is over that age at the time of the jury's verdict. The position at present, I think, is that if he is over that age at the time of the verdict he can be hanged. To that extent the Home Secretary is seeking to reform the law, so that no one under i8 years shall be hanged. Anyone of low mental condition is not hanged. Anyone who has any defect of reason at all is either considered by the Home Office and reprieved, or, when he or she has been before the court, the verdict is brought in of "guilty but insane." I do not think that there has been a single case of a person who is entitled to exemption on the ground of
    1050
    some defect of mind having been hanged in modern times.
    We also have cases of manslaughter and cases of drunkards so drunk that they do not know what they are doing at the time of the crime, and they come into the same position as mentally irresponsible people; they are not hanged We also have the juries recommendations for mercy. There are many cases of recommendation for mercy which are taken into consideration by the Home Office. We also have other cases in which there are special circumstances and the Home Office, or the Home Secretary, looks at all the facts, and, if there are any good reasons why the supreme penalty should not be carried out, there is a reprieve. Having regard to those circumstances, and to the propaganda of the National Council for the Abolition of the Death Penalty in whose literature they admit an increase in crime and how dangerous it is now because criminals are on the increase, and having regard to the point about revising the whole code of criminal punishments, I shall go into the lobby tonight to vote against the new Clause,
    7.30 p.m.
    Mr. Kendall: The hon. and learned Member for Gloucester (Mr. Turner-Samuels) said that no case has been made out for the new Clause. I think it will be agreed that the speech of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) was an ably delivered and considered speech. I cannot improve upon the arguments which have been put forward by the hon. Members for Nelson and Colne, Oldham (Mr. Hale) and Norwich (Mr. Paton). They were extremely good arguments. However, I wish to address myself to those hon. Members who oppose the new Clause, and in particular to the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), who said that he had a tremendous horror of capital punishment. He did not say what was responsible for that feeling of horror. I do not know whether the reason is that he does not like this form of extreme penalty, or whether it is because hanging is a brutal thing.
    If all the facts of this form of the extreme penalty were known to the hon. Gentleman and others who are opposed to the Clause, I wonder whether they themselves would not wish to abolish capital

    1051
    punishment and get something more humane. If the death penalty is a deterrent, I would ask the hon. Member for Oxford and those who oppose the Clause whether they would be in favour of having public hangings in public squares where people could witness them. If the hon. Member were to say that he would be agreeable to such a course, he would have a case for saying that there is some element of deterrence in capital punishment, but I cannot imagine that he or others who oppose the Clause would agree that hangings should be public so that men, women and children could watch them. If hanging is so brutal and barbarous, surely those hon. Members should support this Clause to abolish the extreme penalty for a trial period of five years. I do not know whether any hon. Member has personally ever been present or participated at a hanging. I have not, and I am sure that I would not wish to do so in any circumstances.
    I am sorry that we shall not have an expression of opinion from the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this Debate. It is wrong that he should not take part in the Debate and express his profound convictions and beliefs. It is equally wrong that the Prime Minister, who, I am given to understand, in 1934 or thereabout, presented a petition asking for the reprieve of a murderer, should not take part in this Debate. There are others, too, including the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, who should be here to express their opinions. Instead, we have had a former Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), expressing the official position of those at the Home Office. We shall have the present Home Secretary expressing his opinion; presumably, it will be the official position—
    Mr. Ede: The opinions which I express in this House are my own opinions; and, while I listen to the advice which I get from officials, I form my own judgment on that advice.
    Mr. Kendall: I certainly accept that correction without any question, but, if I understood him correctly, the Home Secretary did say a short time ago that he himself was in favour of the abolition of capital punishment but that now was not the opportune time. I believe I am
    1052
    correct in understanding that to be his sentiment.
    Mr. Ede Mr. Ede indicated assent.
    Mr. Kendall: Surely, we are no worse, as a race of people, than those on the Continent. Surely, we have a responsibility as great as that of the Belgians, the Danes, the Soviet Union and other Continental countries who have abolished capital punishment. If it is right to abolish it, we should take this opportunity to do so. The Clause should not have been in the name of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne and his hon. Friends, supported by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) and others. It should have been tabled by the Home Secretary and many of his colleagues, in view of the sentiments which they have expressed. It should not have been left to back benchers to bring forward this tremendous reform which is so badly needed, and it should not be opposed, as it will be opposed, by the Home Secretary and members of the Government who are not to be allowed a free vote. I think that is a shameful act on the part of this Government, and one that should be severely criticised.
    7.38 p.m.
    Mr. Georǵe Porter: In entering into this discussion for a few moments, I feel like the man who, at an Evangelical meeting, has been given an opportunity of speaking from the body of the hall; because, while I am not for one moment desirous of giving the same expression of opinion as that coming from the platform, I am still very proud at being allowed to make my contribution. I, like the man at that Evangelical meeting, speak not as a convert, but as one who has supported the cause all his life.
    I have been a supporter at the abolition of the death penalty ever since I began to reason. My great uncle was governor of Kirkdale gaol in Liverpool. My mother became a wardress in that particular gaol. She went there, I suppose, with the intention of making that her job until she would meet some individual whom she would marry as, indeed, she did eventually meet my father. She carried on her job and her duties until the time came for her to take her turn attending as a wardress at a hanging. That finished my mother's career as a responsible officer in that gaol It was

    1053
    not because she had seen a hanging or that she knew anything pertaining to the actual hanging, but she had seen the results on other officers of attendance at previous hangings.
    The only reason I want to intervene in this Debate is because I feel that the actual carrying out of the penalty of hanging is a crime against humanity and a crime against the social conscience of the whole nation. Not only that, but the nation as a nation realises it is a crime against the social conscience, because, when it has been decided that a man or woman has to hang, provision is made whereby that individual shall be given every opportunity to fit himself or herself for what these people in their hypocritical religious ideas believe is the hereafter. They send a minister to prepare the individual for the hereafter. If the person about to be hanged belongs to the Orthodox Church, the minister follows him to the scaffold repeating portions of the burial service from the Prayer Book, including the phrase, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away," but in using that phrase the minister knows that at that very moment he is lying. The people who are taking away the life of that individual are the community of which he happens to be a member.
    As one who does not pretend to be a criminologist, as one who does not pretend to have any special qualifications to take part in this Debate, but who has very sincere beliefs in regard to the matter under discussion, I approach the subject from the point of view of the social conscience of the people, and I say that those who claim to have religious, humanitarian or other convictions on this matter can do no other than support the new Clause, for which I shall vote tonight.
    7.44 P.m.
    Sir Ronald Ross: We have heard several allusions during this Debate to the Select Committee on Capital Punishment which sat in 1930, but I am the first member of that Committee to address the House on this new Clause, which I do entirely as a matter of duty. When I was a member of the Select Committee, I was a new boy in the House—it is some time ago—and I did not want particularly to go on to
    1054
    that Select Committee. There were many others like myself who did not have any particular interest in the question, but they were asked to be members, and they could not see that they had any good reason for refusing.
    The interesting thing about the Debate tonight, and about the whole question, is the crusading fervour of those sincere people who wish to abolish capital punishment. There were on the Committee quite a number of those, including the chairman, the Reverend Mr. Barr. If he did not obtain the agreement of the members of the Committee, he obtained their affection. There were quite a number who asked to be put on to the Committee because of their interest in the subject of capital punishment, and anyone interested in capital punishment has an interest in its abolition. Those who speak, as I am speaking now, in the other sense, are doing so out of a sense of duty to those who, in their opinion, would be put in jeopardy of their lives, if this particular form of punishment were abolished. I do not enjoy making this speech. I speak in order to give such assistance as I can.
    This is what happened in the Select Committee. A report was finally prepared by Mr. Barr recommending what one might shortly call the terms of this new Clause. Those members of the Select Committee who did not agree and did not think it was safe to suspend the operation of capital punishment at that period moved that an alternative report should be prepared for consideration. It was understood that the alternative report would not recommend a suspension of capital punishment. I may add that the Committee sat in the days of the 1929 Labour Government. The proposal in regard to the alternative report was put to a vote and the voices were equally divided. The chairman gave his casting vote in favour of the Motion that there should be no alternative to his report. Therefore, those of us who disagreed with that left the Committee, and took no further part in it.
    Mr. J. Paton: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that it was open to the dissenting members, for a period of over five months, to submit an alternative report, which, in fact, they were invited to produce?
    Sir R. Ross: I can remember very clearly that there was a vote in the Committee forbidding us to have an alternative report, and that was carried by the casting vote of the chairman. I was there and the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton) was not.
    Mr. Paton: I read about it.
    Sir R. Ross: That was why we went out. What subsequently happened? No alternative report was prepared, and that was the reason. Sir Gervais Rentoul moved that the alternative report be prepared, and I have given the reasons why it was not done. The reason I am opposing this new Clause is that I believe that in doing so I am doing more to save lives than I would be if I voted for the new Clause. No one here wishes to see an increased application of the death penalty. At the present time there are two safeguards. If the judge recommends a reprieve, it is invariably granted, and on numerous occasions when that recommendation is not made and when the Home Secretary thinks that there may be some doubt, he gives a reprieve. I must admit that I make a distinction between the lives of those who are convicted of murders and of the victims of their crimes. The first duty we have is to protect the potential victims of murders from being murdered.
    The main consideration throughout this Debate is whether the death penalty is the greatest possible deterrent and the most suitable one. We heard from the opposite benches a quotation from John Stuart Mill, who said that we knew the people to whom capital punishment had not been a deterrent from the crime of murder but we did not know to how many it had been a deterrent. It is interesting to observe that those who have been convicted of the capital crime have almost always been people of the best character. They include those who have committed passionate crimes, of the type often called le crime passionel, and who are by no means people of criminal life or habit. The vast majority of people murdered, not counting infants, are women, and the number of their murderers who have a bad criminal record is extremely few.
    When I was a member of that Select Committee, I heard a great amount of evidence. I had not thought very much
    1056
    about the matter before. I believed that capital punishment was probably good, but my opinion was no stronger than that. Capital punishment has been described as a grim necessity. I would go further than that and would describe the carrying out of the death penalty as. a revolting system. If I thought we could get on as well without it, I should be most happy that we should do so. The overwhelming volume of evidence of those who are in touch with people of serious criminal habits is against it. It is the evidence of prison governors, officers, doctors and chaplains, and of the Prison Commissioners, who can be supposed to know the opinions and the feelings of the dangerous criminals who set their hands against society. Those authorities have all said they were in favour of keeping capital punishment. There were many eloquent people who gave evidence and about half their number were against abolition. The eloquent people included the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt). The people like lawyers, judges, and those who were in contact with professional criminals were nearly unanimous in saying that we dare not abolish this form of punishment.
    Experts from countries where the death penalty had been suspended or was not in operation, defended the position of their various countries. We had one most interesting and cogent witness from the United States, Judge Kavanagh, with 34 years' experience on the criminal bench of Chicago. He was strongly impressed with the necessity of keeping capital punishment.
    Mr. Paget: The hon. Member ought to refer also to the memorandum of Major Lawes, Warden of Sing Sing Prison, who produced evidence which exploded everything that the judge had said. Never has anybody been so well answered.
    Sir R. Ross: The judge was present in person and subjected himself to cross-examination by many members of the Committee who were much opposed to his views. The Warden of Sing Sing did not come over, but sent a long-range memorandum. There was no opportunity of discussing with him his evidence. I have every reason to suppose that a person who had had the practical experience of the judge was capable of presenting a reasonable view. Certainly, his evidence was most impressive. Everyone who speaks

    1057
    in favour of the abolition of capital punishment has behind him the resources and funds of organisations, which are supported by many sincere people who send money to be used for propaganda in favour of that in which they believe. Those who do not support the abolition of capital punishment have not the benefit of such resources.
    I think we might hear a little more about the States in America which, having abolished capital punishment, found they had to reinstate it. There were half a dozen of them. I do not think that Arizona can be considered less of a parallel to this country than is Denmark. During the time that State abolished capital punishment, the number of murders was double what it was before. I think that is a correct statement. I believe there was also a similar increase in the State of Vermont. I think they abolished capital punishment in 1917 and had to reinstate it about two years afterwards.
    Mr. Paget: In every case the number of homicides increased after the death penalty was reimposed.
    Sir R. Ross: The hon. and learned Gentleman should look up the case of Arizona as reported by the Attorney-General of Arizona in the evidence to the Select Committee. He will find that the murders increased after the penalty was abolished.
    Mr. Paget: And they increased when it was put on again.
    Sir R. Ross: I am not going to have a general discussion upon this and that with the hon. and learned Gentleman. He must contain himself and wait for his turn to speak, when I am sure he will be all the better for having exercised restraint.
    There are cases which seem extraordinarily difficult to deal with. There are cases of murderers, in places where there has been no capital punishment, committing a substantial number of crimes, knowing that they could not be punished arty more. I remember the cases recited of prisoners who had killed prison guards in States where there was no capital punishment, had then killed policemen, and had then come back to the gaol and had not been very much worse off. It is difficult to see how one could put up with that kind of thing. The hon. Member for Norwich, who is
    1058
    not in his place at the moment, alluded to Detroit, which always had a very high rate of murders among the cities of the United States, infinitely higher than in Canada across the way. Canada had capital punishment, but Detroit had not.
    Finally, I would refer to a man who as many of us will agree was probably in a better position to form an; opinion on this subject than any other single individual, and he was Sir Alexander Paterson. He certainly had an opinion. He said:
    "… we who are in daily contact with professional criminals can safely say that with them the dread of the gallows is a strong deterrent. They have tasted prison, then lost the fear of it. They may have misused their lives but are loth to lose them."
    I am sorry that the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson Harris) is not in the House at the moment. He said he could hardly imagine that Sir Alexander Paterson would be in favour of capital punishment. I quote from the Select Committee on page 486, where he said:
    "I would prefer the death sentence on grounds of humanity to any alternative that any country has tried."
    He looked at the long-term sentence as being definitely more inhumane than the death penalty. I should have thought that it is better to kill the body than to kill the soul, and as no one has suggested any adequate alternative to the death penalty except long-term imprisonment, I shall certainly vote against this Clause.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: I was much interested in what the hon. Member for Londonderry (Sir R. Ross) said about two points. One was that the death sentence was the greatest deterrent and the other was that it was kinder than the long sentence. I have been very puzzled by the number of those who are against the new Clause who have thought that the greatest possible deterrent is the death sentence. I should have thought that if there was one thing that we have all learnt during the recent war—not only hon. and gallant Members who were fighting but those of us who were living, for instance, in London—it was how very soon we became quite reckless about our own lives. I should imagine that would certainly be true of criminals. I cannot conceive of a criminal who would say,

    1059
    "I am going to commit a murder and I may be caught. I shall not do it if the death sentence is carried out 'but I shall do it if I get a long term of imprisonment." Other hon. Members have said, on the other hand, what completely contradicts that—that the death sentence is in fact much more merciful than a long term of imprisonment—
    Mr. Fernyhough: Ask the murderer.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: —but what nobody has said today is that the long term of imprisonment under the new Bill will be something quite different from what it has been before. The reason I feel so very strongly about the new Clause is this. Many of us, including the Home Secretary and other Members of the present Government, have for many years campaigned against the old penal system and have endeavoured to bring in a new system of punishment wherein punishment should always be of a remedial kind, the angle of punishment being to try to cure the prisoner and to turn him into a good citizen rather than merely to have a terrifying deterrent effect, as was the case under the old system. I do not mean to say that in the last few years we have had a system that was not merely a terrifying deterrent—
    Mr. Marlowe: Does not the hon. Lady realise the inconsistency of saying that there will be a life imprisonment different from the kind now existing, where people are released, and at the same time saying that we are trying to bring in a reformative system? If we put a man inside a prison for life, there is no hope of reformative treatment.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: I cannot altogether agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman. The point is that a life sentence, as has been pointed out over and over again today, is not a definitely determined sentence. It depends on the recommendation of the governor and the doctor and the prerogative of the Home Secretary. One of the reasons which my right hon. Friend put forward for his being in favour of retaining capital punishment was that the life sentence was not in fact a life sentence, but that after a certain number of years the prisoner would be released. This is the point: are we to
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    take the attitude that punishment shall be remedial and shall at any rate attempt to cure the prisoner? Surely, we are all agreed that a person who commits murder is in some sense a pathological case? Are we going to attempt to cure such persons or are we going simply to wash them out?
    I am not nearly so interested in the 11 or 12 prisoners annually who may or may not be hanged as I am in carrying out the policy of this new Bill in the best possible way. I maintain that if we retain the death sentence it is absolutely impossible to carry out the new principles of the Bill, the remedial angle of it. If we are to make the new Measure a real success and to cure everybody who can by any means be cured—the people who have committed much lesser crimes, for I am not talking particularly about murderers but of all the people who can be cured—we must attract prison officers of a new type, officers who are anxious to help and educate prisoners, and officers who will necessarily have to be of a more sensitive type than many of the officers now in the prisons in order to carry out this work.
    We shall not get the type of men and women we want to join the prison service if at any time they may be called upon to take part in an execution. Nobody has suggested that an execution is not a horrible thing. Many people have either read about or remember what happened when Mrs. Thompson, the last woman to be hanged, was executed. That execution was so horrible that after it the hangman committed suicide, one of the wardresses who was present went mad, and the chaplain had a very, bad nervous breakdown; and every single person who was present at that execution left the service within a very short time. I put it to the Government and to the opponents of the new Clause that we cannot get the right type of prison officers into the service if they may have to be present at a ghastly and barbaric thing like the hanging of Mrs. Thompson.
    Other hon. Members have suggested that the way to get rid of capital punishment is to have more and more reprieves and to let the whole thing slide, as it were. I am not a lawyer but I have always been brought up to understand that one thing which is bad for the government of a country is to have laws which

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    are not carried out. Yet, one hon. and learned Member suggested that the law which exists should less and less be put into operation and that in that way we should get rid of capital punishment. I suggest that this is one of the great dangers; that we shall have a law that is not carried out because public opinion will not allow it to be carried out. Just as in the old days, when anybody could be hanged for stealing a sheep or anything else to the value of 5s., even if the person who did it happened to be a hungry child, juries refused to convict, so the same kind of thing is beginning to happen now. I know that the Home Secretary is worried about the fact that during the last year there has been more than one case of a jury refusing to convict a person of murder when all the evidence showed quite definitely he had committed the murder.
    Surely, everybody will agree that, if that is extended, it is a serious thing indeed—because what happens? The gamble is increased and, far from it being a deterrent to murder, it is an attraction to murder if people know that if caught they may be acquitted. The gamble is increased if these people know that if they get off it will be scot-free, without any punishment at all for committing a most ghastly crime. I suggest that the reason 100 or 150 years ago the law about capital punishment was altered was not so much because of the reformers, but because the public was frightened of what was happening, for criminals, some of whom had committed brutal crimes, were getting off altogether, since juries refused to convict.
    I have spoken about the officers who will be recruited, but there is another side to it, and that is the question of the High Court judges. An hon. and learned Member said to me the other day that it was known that most lawyers were in favour of the abolition of capital punishment and that most judges were against it, especially High Court judges. I thought that one over. Of course, High Court judges are in favour of capital punishment because they could not condemn unless they were.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is the hon. Member suggesting that any High Court judge today lets his personal feelings come into this question?
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: I did not suggest that at all. What I suggested was that any barrister who felt strongly about the matter would not feel able—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but she is making comments on High Court judges, and that is not permissible in this House.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: I am sorry, Sir, I was not really commenting on them, but on the learned gentlemen who would feel unable to accept the position of High Court judges. I want to submit that the vital and important thing is that this great new reformative Measure, which is the coping stone of a building of the progressive treatment of prisoners, shall be able to be put into operation successfully in every way. As has been pointed out, it is completely inconsistent that we should abolish corporal punishment and at the same time retain the death penalty. Those two things are illogical and, if we do that, if this new Clause is not carried tonight, we shall have this splendid new Measure built on a fine foundation but it will be utterly impossible to implement it effectively.
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. Gage: Everyone who has spoken on this question tonight has made it plain that this is one of the most difficult decisions which this House has had to make and, for myself, it is a question that has given me greater anxiety and worry than any other which I have had to decide. There is one thing, however, about which I have no difficulty. I dislike intensely the five years' suspensory character of this Clause. Either capital punishment is wrong and should be abolished once and for all, or, if we feel it must be retained, we should leave it to a future Parliament, perhaps to a future generation, to make up their minds upon it as the circumstances then may dictate.
    Coming to the real issue, I desire to say only this. Quite clearly nobody in this House would desire to retain hanging for the sake of hanging. All of us dislike hanging just as we dislike the horrible crime of murder for which it is imposed, and if I could honestly bring myself to believe that the crime of murder would not increase if hanging were abolished, I

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    would vote, if not for the suspension Clause, at any rate for the abolition of the death penalty. It is because I cannot truthfully feel it will decrease, that tonight I shall vote against the Clause.
    I am not impressed by the argument as to the statistics in other nations. It is an attractive argument and, at first blush, one would like to accept it, but the psychology of criminals differs with nations as with people, and while I am not for one moment saying that we are more prone to murders in this country than anywhere else—I am perfectly certain we are not—I feel that it is not a fair and exact parallel upon which I could decide. What impresses me now is that crimes of violence have been increasing. I am not one of those people who think that if the death sentence is abolished, a number of criminals who do not go about armed will suddenly take to carrying arms, because from my experience of criminal cases, as a rule one finds that arms are not easy for the criminals to get. But I have never prosecuted or defended in what one might call an ordinary criminal case—which is burglary or breaking and entering—in which the criminal has not been armed with what is generally and somewhat pompously called a "burglarious instrument," which usually takes the form of a heavy piece of piping with lead in it. That is a weapon which every criminal of that type carries, and it is just as deadly as a pistol. I have no doubt that there will be a great temptation on the part of criminals to use that weapon to silence perhaps the only witness who might be able to give evidence against them.
    It goes further than that because it has been well and truly said that the real deterrent to crime is not so much the penalty as the certainty of detection. That is borne out by the fact that when crime was more difficult to detect the penalties were very much heavier than they are now, and they were what we would think quite ruthless. Can anyone say that at present the certainty of detection is increasing? I shall be interested to hear from the right hon. Gentleman some statistics about undetected crime, because I believe it has increased. Because the police force,
    through no fault of their own, are undermanned and perhaps not properly equipped they have been unable to discover the criminals.
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    Given that premise, I think it is a very bad time to try this experiment—it is an experiment—and it is a bad time to take away the penalty which, every one must agree, acts in some measure as a deterrent. As to the police who behave constantly with the greatest bravery and gallantry in pursuing criminals and catching them, they at any rate believe the death penalty is a deterrent. They may be quite wrong and hon. Members may be quite right. But, after all, hon. Members do not have to pursue and catch criminals, and it may have a bad effect on the police force if they honestly feel they are not being protected in this matter.
    I have come to the conclusion that at this time at any rate I cannot honestly say that the incidence of murder will not increase if the death penalty is abolished. So with great hesitation, and a good deal of reluctance, I feel I must oppose this new Clause. I hope that the time may come when crime detection will be so much better that it will be possible for another Parliament to take a different view. If sincerely I could take a different view, there is nothing I would like more than to support this Clause. But we have to consider the ordinary, respectable, and decent people of this country, who have the first claim on our consideration and, if necessary, to our protection.
    8.24 p.m.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: I agree with the hon. Member for South Belfast (Mr. Gage) when he says that the issues the House has to decide tonight are difficult. I think the principal reason for our difficulties is that to some extent all of us are moving in the realm of conjecture and probability. Those who wish to maintain the death penalty cannot satisfy their opponents by any statistical or certain evidence that the existence of the death penalty prevents the commission of murder. On the other hand, I say quite frankly; as one who will support the abolition of the death penalty tonight, I cannot provide statistical or certain evidence whether abolition will or will not cause an increase of murders or a reduction in murders, or merely the maintenance of the murder rate. But what we do know are the probabilities. The probabilities can be ascertained from what has happened in countries of similar

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    standards of civilisation to our own which have abolished the death penalty. I submit that that is a very real factor which this House is entitled to consider. Almost every civilised country in the world has now abolished the death penalty and I draw particular attention to the experience of New Zealand in this matter. Ten years ago an enlightened Labour Government in New Zealand abolished the death penalty and although in the meantime there has been the experience of war with all its corrosive effects on moral and ethical standards there has been no increase in crimes of violence in New Zealand and no increase in the incidence of murder in the last 10 years compared with the 10 years before. I cannot believe there is something so debased in the British character that British people need the gallows to deter them from the commission of murder.
    We cannot tackle this problem of murder by savagery of punishment. I think what is needed first and foremost is to raise the chances of detection and apprehension and in this matter I agree with the hon. Member for South Belfast to some extent. Murder figures for. last year deserve the attention of the House. I understand that from January to the end of August, 1947, 136 murders were known to the police, 50 accused were sent for trial, 11 were not tried because they were insane on arraignment or for some other reason, so that 75 murders out of 136 were not solved. More than half of last year's murderers got away with murder. The answer to this situation is not, in view of the difficulty of detection, to rely on savagery of punishment, but to increase the establishment of the police force and to enable the police more adequately to cope with this problem. I feel we would be neglecting our duties if we avoided the problem by saying, as has so often been said before, "rely on savagery of punishment instead." In a recent inquiry in which I participated I was astonished to find that in one county police force there was not a single detective on the establishment. It is not surprising that in that county the incidence of indictable offences has practically doubled since 1938.
    Apart from the necessity of increasing detective services and of the forces
    which have to deal with serious crime, I believe that certainty of conviction and of
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    punishment are far more effective than savagery of punishment in preventing the crime of murder. I believe that the existence of the death penalty has the effect of reducing the conviction rate. In my experience in civil courts and in courts martial I find that juries and courts dislike the death penalty and where the facts would justify a verdict of murder will sometimes bring in verdicts of manslaughter or even acquittal in order to avoid the consequences of bringing in the finding of guilty of murder. I contend that this is a process which not only brings the law into disrepute, but is an encouragement to the potential murderer.
    From the other side of the House we have been asked to pay more attention to the victims of murder and spare less sympathy for the murderer. I entirely agree. One of my reasons for objecting to the maintenance of the death penalty is that it introduces into murder trials an element of melodrama and of the man fighting for his life which shifts sympathy from the victim to the murderer, and which results—
    Mr. Hogg: How does the hon. Member reconcile what he is now saying with his own part in the Nuremberg trials?
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: With customary courtesy my hon. Friend draws my attention to a particular duty which was imposed upon me and which I had the honour to accept. In that trial, first of all, we were not dealing with the commission of murder in time of peace but with the commission of 12 million cold-blooded murders over a period of three and a half years. If ever there was a justification for the carrying out of the death penalty,
    that was the occasion. As I have said, I appeared in that trial as one of the prosecutors doing a duty and enforcing the law that was applicable. I am now speaking as a humble legislator, thinking that the law applicable to this country now should be altered. I see nothing inconsistent, if I may say so, in my two separate activities.
    When I was interrupted, I was saying that the effect of this element of the man fighting for his life tends to turn murder trials into a glorification of the murderer. Indeed, I think there is some evidence that the publicity which murder trials give
    to the murderer leads to imitative crime. The hon. Gentleman,

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    who in more philosophical terms, has already referred to this matter, did not give any actual illustrations of it, but Roy Calvert, in his brilliant classic on "Capital Punishment in the Twentieth Century" refers to an actual case of Ernest Rhodes, who murdered a girl in 1925 by cutting her throat. The evidence in that case showed that he had followed the newspaper reports of the previous murder trials of Mahon and Thorne; that he had carefully preserved the newspaper cuttings about those trials; and that he had referred to Thorne as a hero.
    I cannot believe that the morbid publicity and interest that attaches to these murder trials—and anyone who takes part in them is very conscious of it—can be of any advantage to the people of this country; nor, in particular, can it be of any benefit to our children to read the squalid and sordid details in the newspapers. The circumstances that attend hangings are frequently horrible. Lord Buckmaster has stated that at one execution there were people leaning with their ears against the walls of the prison so that they could hear the thud of the falling body. I cannot believe that experiences and practices of that kind can do anything but debase the character and standards of our people.
    I would close by repeating what others have said before me—that the crying need for this age and generation is to restore the respect for human life. If I may revert to the Nuremberg trials for a moment I am sure that the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) will remember as vividly as I do the occasion when there went into the witness box at Nuremberg a man called Hoess who, without passion or emotion, described how in two years at Auschwitz concentration camp he had been responsible for 2,500,000 murders. He described how he had improved the technique of death in other concentration camps by reducing the time of killing to 10 seconds in the case of men and 15 seconds in the case of women, the difference in time being accounted for by the fact that it took five seconds to cut the hair off the women before they were murdered. It is not insignificant that one of the first acts of the Nazi Government was to restore the death penalty. They relied on terror.
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    Our democracy is a democracy that does not need the terror of the death penalty.
    Giving evidence in 1930 to the Select Committee, the Belgian Minister of Justice said, after dealing with the effects of the abolition of capital punishment in his country:
    "It seems inconceivable that a Minister of Justice should ever again think it possible to re-establish a penalty the uselessness of which, to put it no higher, has been amply demonstrated… The lesson has been learnt that the best way of inculcating respect for human life is to refrain from taking life in the name of the law."
    In our present circumstances I believe this to be true, and I believe it is time that our country made an end to this unnecessary barbarity.
    8.35 p.m.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: If my speech is not only brief, but very brief, I hope that I shall be acquitted of disrespect to what has been a great and historic Debate. We have seen the House of Commons at its best. There have been speeches of deep sincerity, speeches by hon. Members who have studied this subject all their lives, and speeches by hon. Members who have informed themselves very closely upon all connected with it. For that very reason I want to put forward a consideration that has not hitherto been put forward.
    I wonder if this really is one of the occasions when we should make the question a matter of personal conscience and personal judgment? I feel that the House is priding itself at this moment on the fact that party affiliations are ignored, that people are speaking from the depths of their hearts and from the depths of their convictions. I repeat: I wonder if that is truly the way we should approach this subject? We have heard very little about the people whom we are sent here lo represent. We are not sent here to represent our personal consciences and our personal predilections. We should bear in mind that our duty here is to voice the opinion of the public who elected us and sent us here. I have heard very little so far about public opinion. It is a nebulous and possibly a hypothetical thing, which it is easy to interpret according to one's own prejudices, but all the same, I offer the House my own interpretation of public opinion on this matter.

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    I believe that the man in the street is prepared for great mercy to murderers. I think that the average man—if he exists—would be surprised at the way in which we are generalising about murderers. I do not think it is possible to generalise about murderers or about the punishment that should be meted out to them. I believe that public opinion is ready for great mercy to be shown to the ordinary weak-willed victim of circumstances who, in a fit of temper or as a result of severe nervous strain, has murdered somebody. I have never attended a murder trial or been in a condemned cell, but from all I can learn I picture the ordinary murderer as rather a pathetic, weak character who has found the strain of life too much for him and who has done something desperate. I repeat my belief that public opinion is prepared for great mercy to be shown to him.
    But I do not think public opinion would support this House, however, if we suggested the release from the death penalty of the gangster, the gunman and the man who lives a life of violence. For that reason, I shall vote against this Clause tonight. I do not believe we have public opinion with us if we do away with the death penalty. I believe that the whole of public opinion resents most bitterly the murder of policemen by gangsters and armed burglars. We have not got public opinion with us and I beg the House to remember, as I said earlier, that this is not just a matter of exercising our private consciences, the riding of our private hobby horses, however noble and sincerely held our views may be.
    We are dealing with a subject that affects, or may affect, every man, woman and child in this country, and we are not at liberty just to regard it as a matter of personal conscience. I beg hon. Members, before voting for this Clause, to pay attention in their minds to the state of public opinion on this subject.
    8.40 p.m.
    Mr. S. N. Evans: The hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) is quite right. I do not think that public opinion is with the sponsors of this new Clause. I am drawn to that opinion by experiences over the past few days. I must make it clear at the outset that I oppose this Clause, and I do so on three grounds which appear to me to
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    be valid. The first is that if we are to do away with killing in this country, then let the murderers show the example. The second is that I do not believe that public opinion is behind the move for this change, and, therefore, I say that those sponsoring this Clause have no mandate. The third is that I believe it would be against the public interest to make such a fundamental change at this moment.
    The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) in a very eloquent speech, said "How can we ascertain the views of the country in this matter? You cannot do it by going down to your constituency and counting heads." I did not go down to my constituency to count heads, but I certainly went there to ascertain the views of quite ordinary people as opposed to the view—I say this with profound respect—of the lawyers. In the course of my inquiries, I had a word with quarry workers, lorry drivers, hotel receptionists, one accountant, the mother of a young family, a pitman and a grandmother, and I think that might be called a fairly representative cross-cut of the nation. I am bound to say that in this matter unanimity prevailed. Indeed, far from wanting to see capital punishment abolished the people to whom I spoke were concerned about the freedom with which reprieves are being granted at this moment.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton) said he spoke with "fire in his belly" when he was discussing this question of capital punishment. I dare say that is true. I know him to be a very sincere person. But how truer it must be of the parents of that poor unfortunate child who was murdered in Lancashire last weekend. [An HON. MEMBER: "Capital punishment did not save him."] We must see these things in correct perspective. Is it seriously suggested that someone who rapes a little girl and then kills her to destroy the evidence should be kept alive for any reason whatever? I do not think so.
    However shocking it may be to sentimentalists, British public opinion is as sound as a bell of brass on this matter. There is no substantial body of public opinion in this country in favour of the abolition of capital punishment. Public opinion in this country is healthy and vigorous and free from neurosis. It

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    accepts the Biblical injunction, and I share that sentiment—"eye for eye, tooth for tooth."—[Interruption.] This is the place where persons are able to get up and state their point of view, and that is what I am doing. I have gone to some trouble to ascertain public opinion. I have yet to hear anybody get up in this Debate and say that he has gone to the length that I have done to ascertain public opinion.
    We British are a law-abiding race, not least because the law in this country is carried out fairly and fearlessly, and for that reason people are not tempted to pursue private vengeance even when they are most heavily aggrieved and bereaved. I believe that if we remove this sentence there may well be a danger of persons being tempted to take the law into their own hands, as indeed they do in parts of the United States of America. On this question whether capital punishment is a deterrent or not, I draw for guidance on my experience in the 1914–18 war. Many were the arguments that went on in the trenches, and when we were at rest, as to whether or not the certainty that a man would be shot for desertion in the face of the enemy acted as a factor in preventing him from deserting. The universal opinion was that without that sanction, without the conviction that if he ran away in the face of the enemy and was caught he would be shot, there would have been considerably more desertions than there was.
    Mr. S. Silverman: We are all interested in my hon. Friend's reminiscences of the 1914–18 war, but is he not aware that the penalty of death for desertion has been abolished since that time and was never applied during the recent war?
    Mr. Evans: I should be surprised to know that desertion in the face of the enemy was not punishable by death even now.
    When the time is ripe for the abolition of capital punishment, public opinion will manifest itself. When hanging for sheep stealing was abolished, it was because juries would no longer return verdicts of guilty because of the knowledge that such a verdict meant that a man would be hung. I see no signs in this country at this moment of any reluctance on the part of juries, despite the knowledge that is within their minds, to return verdicts
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    of murder in murder cases. I say that public opinion will manifest itself in that way first of all.
    I would like to ask this question: What are we to do with people like Heath if we do not hang them? Are we to keep them locked up for evermore, for the rest of their days, or are we to turn them loose after a given period of years? I want to know who is to accept the responsibility for turning such people loose? If we do not turn them loose, what a problem presents itself to those responsible for their incarceration, because even with a 15 years' sentence to serve a man has at any rate a ray of hope, and he acts accordingly. A prisoner with the certainty that he was inside for the rest of his days might well kill a warder in the course of attempting to escape, because he would know that there was no greater penalty than he was enduring which could be inflicted upon him. Therefore, I say that that is an aspect of the matter that has to be taken into consideration.
    Of course, one could quote, as has been quoted, I believe by the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude) case after case of murderers in respect of whom the best thing for society was to kill them off. Such a man was Smith of the "Brides in the Bath" case, a man who made a trade of murder. It is all very well for Members of Parliament to take an academic view on this matter, but those charged with the task of detecting and bringing to justice habitual criminals are entitled to have their point of view taken into account. I happen to know a number of persons in this City, in Scotland Yard, who take a very poor view of the abolition of capital punishment because, in their view, it is quite certain that there would be a marked increase in crimes of violence and the carrying of firearms.
    I have listened to this Debate with close attention. As has been rightly said, it has been a goon Debate. I have, however, heard nothing to change my opinion that it would be a bad thing for society to make this radical change at this moment. There is no confusion in my mind at all over this matter; I have no mental reservations of any kind, and I propose to oppose the Clause.
    8.51 p.m.
    Mr. Beverley Baxter: The hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) propounded an impossible

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    attitude for the rest of us to follow if, when a great moral issue like this is presented to us, we must run to our constituents and take a sort of Gallup Survey, being bound by the majority one way or the other when we ourselves disagree with it. If that were to be the case, it would lower the position of the Member of Parliament to something really contemptible.
    I know there is a feeling that in this Debate today, which is free from party conflict, all the sentiment and emotion are on the side of those who support the Clause and all the hard common sense is on the other side. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There is that feeling. I think it is a fair statement to say there is the feeling that those who support the Clause are being emotional and illogical and those who support hanging
    are being logical and unemotional. What I have to say is this: if anything, the very reverse is true. I think it is stubborn lack of heart which actuates those who support retention of the death penalty, and I believe the stark logic is with those of us who go into the Lobby to support the Clause tonight.
    For many years, as editor of a newspaper, I watched these murder cases, and I certainly played my part in exploiting the great public interest in them. I did not create the interest; it was there. But what does a murder trial do? What does the death sentence do? It creates an aristocracy among criminals; the murderer becomes the aristocrat. An hon. Member on this side says "No." I went to prison last Saturday morning [Interruption]—I went to see a misguided constituent of mine who was spending the winter there—and the deputy-governor asked me if I would like to attend in the orderly room. I sat with him when one convict after another came to see him and I was given the papers to show what each man had done. They were receivers, they were different kinds of thieves, various kinds of criminals with lots of convictions against them—but supposing a man had come in who had been convicted of murder? At once I would have been profoundly interested. The whole atmosphere would have changed. I would have been in the presence of one of the aristocrats of the criminal world [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is no use denying that, because it is true.
    These men who commit murder and are hanged become grisly immortals of their
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    kind. Hon. and learned Gentlemen opposite have talked about the exploitation of this thing, but learned counsel—men who write memoirs and whose books are published—tell about the murder trials in which they have taken part until today if we mention "Armstrong," or other names like that, we do not even need to identify them. Murder has created this false glamour; it has created it in the public mind. The fellow pays the penalty with his life and our hatred goes with that—that is the feeling.
    An hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, who is not now in his place, has described the scenes at Nuremberg. He took part in the prosecution at Nuremberg. I went there for the last few days for the summing up and the sentences. It is a grim thing to see 12 or 13 men sentenced on one morning. What was the feeling? There were these men, who had committed these terrible crimes against peace and humanity; they were sentenced to death, and not long afterwards they were choked to death by our orders, and in our hearts a good many of us felt, "They have paid." How much better would it have been to sentence them, in the name of the law, to lack of citizenship, to set them to work restoring the damaged cities, to let them live their lives with a sense of shame. But do not let us bring down the guillotine or pull the trap for hanging, thus wiping out our hatred and our disapproval of these men.
    I say that this glamour—I have seen it in the United States—plays a big part. What would happen if this Clause were carried, as I hope so much it will be, and we did away with the death sentence for murder? There is in the criminal world a curious code which they maintain, and the man who commits murder when he does not face death for it, will become the most detested of them all. Among criminals, he who commits murder when he does not run the risk of death will no longer be the aristocrat in the criminal world. He will be looked
    down upon by his own class. I think I am right in saying this. I say that the death sentence defeats its own object. It creates a vested interest in murder in the criminal class. Why should we not take the risk of abolishing the death sentence?
    There are many aspects I would have liked to mention in this problem. This, however, is what I feel: we have lived

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    in an era of unexampled physical brutality. Hitler built up his empire by attacking the spirit of his people and by attacking their bodies. I say the time has come for some civilised nation as great as ours to express a confidence in the honour and the civilisation of the people of this country. We should condemn this mutilation of the body because if we are Christians, or whatever other religion we belong to, we must believe the body is the temple of the spirit. Europe is cursed with sheer physical brutality and hanging is a cruel crime against the body, which is the temple of the spirit.
    The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) said that Edith Thompson was guilty. I think that she was hanged for adultery, not murder. I agree that the man was killed, but we are not discussing that now. After her execution—the hon. Member for North Hendon (Mrs. Ayrton Gould) referred to this—two of the warders who had taken part in that execution came to my office, and their faces were not human. I can assure you, Sir, they were like people out of another world. Edith Thompson had disintegrated as a human creature on her way to the gallows, and yet somehow they had to get her there. Hon. Members will recall what happened—the suicide that followed and the resignations. Those two warders who took part in that execution said to me, "Use your influence; never again must a woman be hanged."
    We believe that hanging does nothing but brutalise those who take part in it. I urge this House tonight to send out a message. Let us say as a legislature, as people with responsibility—invoking the Bible—"We shall not kill." Is it not possible that murderers in prison will find their own souls? Then when the time comes for their death by natural process, we shall not have sent them to face their Judge before they had time to expiate their crimes. I hope that we shall carry this new Clause, and that this will be a great day in the history of this Parliament.
    9.1 p.m.
    Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe: I hope I am rightly interpreting the mood of the House when I say that I feel I ought to express my view on what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr.
    1076
    Baxter) in his eloquent plea for the contention that human life is sacred
    and that the State has no more right to kill than any individual. I have tried to consider that problem from the moral and ethical standpoint, as I am sure every hon. Member in every part of the House has done in preparation for his vote tonight. I would finally disagree with the point of view of my hon. Friend. I believe that the right to take life judicially in appropriate cases is the self-defence of the community, and is as justifiable, logically and morally, as that right of self-defence by which members of the community are ordered to kill foreign enemies, or to defend the community against aggression. I also believe that, with all the imperfections of our humanity, it is our duty in this life to try to seek justice as we can find it with the best of our will and to the best of our knowledge, and I believe that in the very limited number of cases of high treason against the State, murder of individuals, and threats to the safety of the seven seas—in that very limited number of cases—justice does demand the penalty which we are discussing tonight.
    I should like to deal very shortly with what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Plaistow (Mr. Elwyn Jones) and my hon. Friend said about murder trials. Let us assume that the death penalty is taken away. There is still the fact that human nature, at this present stage, will show an interest in the investigation of violent death. I hope, as we all hope, that that interest will decline with the advance of education and other ameliorating factors; but it will be there. The removal of the penalty will not remove that. The other point which I think we have to face —and I believe that the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) did a service to us all in reminding us of it—is that in the protective activities of the State there is, and is bound to be, a repressive element for dealing with the wrongdoer. We should take that into consideration, and remember the difficulties of which he reminded us. We should not permit the remembering of these difficulties to prevent us doing our duty, which is to see to the adequate protection of our fellow subjects.
    It has been suggested by several hon. Members that at the present time there is a danger of convictions being wrong, and, as death is a final penalty, of the

    1077
    results being similarly wrong. I ask hon. Members who put forward that view—and especially the hon. Member for Oldham, who referred to a statement made in 1869 by the Home Secretary at that time—to remember that since 1869 there has been not only the infinitely improved police investigation, and the whole procedure of the preliminary investigation by the magistrate—since improved under the Indictable Offences Act and the Criminal Justice Act—but the trial; and, since 1907—a good long time after the period about which the hon. Member spoke—there has been the Court of Criminal Appeal and the special appeal to the House of Lords; and there is, finally, the Home Secretary, who can interfere in any case where, as has been pointed out, there is a scintilla of doubt.
    As a realist I do not believe that the chances of error in a murder case, with these various instruments of the State present, constitute a factor which we must consider, any more than we must consider the danger of death in crossing a street. That is the position on that one argument.
    Mr. Ungoed-Thomas: Surely the right hon. and learned Member will agree that the important consideration is whether there is any possibility of its occurring so that an innocent man is put to death? Will the right hon. and learned Member say that there is no possibility at all of that? Surely, that is relevant to this argument?
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: There is no practical possibility. The hon. and learned Member asks me to say that there is no possibility. Of course, a jury might go wrong, the Court of Criminal Appeal might go wrong, as might the House of Lords and the Home Secretary: they might all be stricken mad and go wrong. But that is not a possibility which anyone can consider likely. The hon. and learned Member is moving in a realm of fantasy when he makes that suggestion. I support what my right hon. Friend said: it is impossible for anyone who views and examines fairly the facts of any murder case of which he has knowledge to say that such a miscarriage of justice has taken place.
    Mr. J. Paton: Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman considered the im-
    1078
    plications of the famous case of Woolmington v. The Director of Public Prosecutions, in which it transpired that a wrong interpretation of the law, affecting many scores of criminals charged with murder, had persisted for over 150 years?
    Mr. Scholefield Allen: Before he answers that; might I ask the right hon. and learned Member another question?
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I think it is convenient to answer one at a time. The error the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton) mentioned in his speech earlier refers to a very limited number of cases where this question arose. Every one of the cases where that error might have arisen receives the attention of a judge on its special facts. I am quite sure that, in spite of the change in emphasis which that case so rightly introduced, in 75 per cent. of the cases which might have been affected the matter would have been cured by the ordinary address which the jury receives as to examining the facts, and the essential nature of the prosecution proving their case.
    Mr. Schofield Allen: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will recall the case in 1931 where a jury found a man guilty, and it was due only to the brilliant advocacy of Mr. Roland Oliver, now Mr. Justice Oliver, against the whole view of the legal profession, that the Court of Criminal Appeal came to the conclusion that there was no evidence whatever on which the jury could have come to that conclusion.
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: The hon. and learned Member has made my point, and I am very grateful to him for his support. The hon. and learned Member has emphasised, by quoting that well-known case, the point I was making a few moments ago, that since 1907 we have had the Court of Criminal Appeal, and the chances of that happening have been greatly diminished as a result. Apart from that, we have the additional safeguards of the House of Lords and the Home Secretary.
    It is interesting that almost in the same breath the other argument has been advanced from the same quarter, that there is difficulty in getting convictions because juries do not want to convict of

    1079
    murder. Apart from one's own experience, the Home Office have made a study of the point. They took some 200 cases in order to examine that particular aspect of the matter, and in 71 per cent. of those cases there was no recommendation to mercy. As the House knows, if there are the slightest qualms on the part of the jury such a recommendation is introduced. From my experience of some 40 or 50 cases in which I have been engaged, I have never seen either the first of the matters of criticism or the reluctance which was mentioned a little time ago.
    I should like to deal with one or two of the points which were raised in a very interesting speech by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Leicester (Mr. Donovan). He pointed out his difficulties which he wanted answered before he decided how to vote. I should like to try to deal with some of the difficulties, and give the answers I have found from my examination of the problem. The hon. and learned Member for East Leicester raised the question of the experience of other countries. That was partly answered by one of my hon. and learned Friends on this side, but as I see it, the importance of the point is this: When the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown), 20 years ago, proposed the Motion which resulted in the setting up of the Committee which considered this matter, he put this forward as being the important aspect, "We want to see the comparison between the period when the death penalty was in operation in other countries, and when it was not in operation."
    There is a difficulty in taking Scandinavia and the Low Countries as examples. In Norway there have been no executions since 1875, and there are no statistics for that country before 1864. In the case of Denmark there are no statistics before 1866; in Holland there have been no executions since 1860, and, in Belgium, none since 1863, so we have no comparative period or any comparative statistics. That is the difficulty of saying flatly, "These countries have abolished the death penalty, and it does not seem to have done any harm." We have no comparative material. The Home Secretary may remember a Debate we had 10 years ago, when I was not
    1080
    prepared to support my own case by relying on the French statistics, although they were in my favour. There are so many different factors which operate in the various countries that one is almost driven to the error, which the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester desired to repudiate, of saying post hoc, propter hoc in regard to the matter.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Sir R. Ross) pointed out that there are various States in the United States which have found it necessary to reimpose the death penalty. We must remember that before the war, when this matter was studied, the certainty of conviction and the celerity of proceedings were both very great in this country. The attractive debating point has been made, "Look at the mistakes of our ancestors 150 years ago. There were over 200 offences for which the death penalty could be imposed. Look what little good, and how much harm was done." Again, I say that that strengthens my argument. I agree that where there was a vast number of cases which were subject to the death penalty its effect was bound to be lessened, but when we get rid of that mistake and we have the death penalty in use for these three major and important matters, then we have not only an additional respect for, but an additional abhorrence of, the crimes for which that penalty is imposed.
    One comes down to considering the question whether or not it is a deterrent. With regard to that, I feel that one has to try to apply one's own knowledge of human nature to the human nature that is affected by this matter. Again, the only reason I give the House my own experience is that I was brought up professionally in Liverpool police court and North Country assizes. For the first five or ten working years of my life, I came into contact at short intervals with the criminal population of Lancashire. I got a chance—I may be wrong, and I admit at once the possibility of error—of trying to form my view of these people, and especially—because they were the vast majority of the cases—of house breakers, pavilion breakers, and burglars, who came into the dock, and whom I saw.
    I believe, as strongly as I can hold a belief, that with the ordinary run of these fellows, the thing that keeps them from giving an old lady a crack over the head,

    1081
    or prevents them from using violence when it is difficult to get away, is the fear that if they go too far then "the 8 o'clock walk" may well await them. If that were only my view, I should state it with even greater diffidence than I do; but when one goes over the evidence that was given before the Select Committee, and finds that view was given not only by Sir Alexander Paterson, who is known to so many of us in this House for his admirable and humane work, but by all those who had the best opportunity of seeing and judging the criminal mentality, then I find it very difficult to resist that view.
    But it may be said—and I think that it has been an argument in the minds of many hon. Members in this House—that that is only one type of potential murderer. What about the other types? I would remind the House of the classic example which is always being quoted, and still must be considered by anyone who views this question fairly. I take only 1927, because that is the year to which attention has been directed in considering this aspect of the case. In that year, five men killed their wives or their mistresses. People have talked a good deal of the crime passionnel. I think that anyone with experience of murder cases will know that in most of those cases, the motive for the crime is boredom or satiety with the woman who is murdered. There were five cases of murder of wives or mistresses, and, in the same year, no fewer than 14,000 wives had to seek the protection of the courts because of acts of cruelty towards them. There were some 293 cased of aggravated assault. I am sorry to give the House merely the reaction of my own common sense, which may be defective, but to me it seems beyond peradventure true that there would have been more than 14,000, and certainly more than 293 would have gone furthers than assault and death would have resulted had not that deterrent been present.
    The final point which I put to the House—and the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for overrunning my time a little, but there were one or two interruptions—is this. A question that has not been answered is. "What would we do if we took the penalty away?" I waited tensely and expectantly for the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton)
    1082
    to deal with that point. He said that he rejected the suggestion of my right hon. Friend as to a period of imprisonment or penal servitude of 10 to 15 years—what my right hon. Friend had called a relatively short period, and he rejected it with some heat. What is the alternative?
    Mr. J. Paton: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman is referring to me, I made it plain to the House that the alternative was contained in the Clause on the Order Paper.
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: The Clause on the Order Paper has nothing to do with it. The hon. Gentleman is again avoiding the dilemma which all the people who object to this Clause must face. The dilemma is this. On one side, we have got what the hon. Gentleman objected to when my right hon. Friend mentioned it—that is the period of 10 to 15 years. On the other side—and this seemed to be the alternative which the hon. Gentleman was favouring when he made his speech—we have the conception, the hopeless conception, of 20, 25 or 30 years, a conception which would ruin the whole of our reformative ideas. We may save a man's body at the expense of killing his mind and, with his mind, his soul. That is a dilemma which has not been faced. If it is not faced, it leaves the question very clear.
    As hon. Members have pointed out, everyone has recognised that we are dealing with a time and a situation of great difficulty. All the arguments which I have put
    forward are reinforced by the difficulties of the post-war period and its greater tendency towards the use of force, which we have seen. Like everyone else, I have tried to approach the question on its merits and with the idea of giving the best service to the solution. I have listened with the greatest care and sympathy to what hon. Gentlemen have said in advancing a different point of view. From the standpoint of conscience and experience, and for the protection or my fellow countrymen, I find that I can take one course only, and that is to vote against the proposed new Clause.
    9.29 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I am quite sure that all those hon. Members, who like myself, have spent the greater part of today in the House, will agree in this at least, that we have had a Debate that is

    1083
    worthy of the importance and the solemnity of the subject. Views held on both sides with earnest conviction and with great passion have been put forward eloquently and sincerely, and have been listened to with tolerance by those who have a different point of view. No matter what the outcome of the Debate may be, the Debate itself has been a credit to this great deliberative assembly. The Government find after the most careful review of this subject that they cannot recommend the House to support the Clause which has been put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). We believe, as he rightly suggested, that the time is not ripe for undertaking this particular reform. I do not myself believe that public opinion in the country is in favour of this Clause at this time.
    Like my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) I have endeavoured to ascertain the views of the ordinary, sensible people whom I meet as I go about the country. I have found during recent weeks an increasing volume of uneasiness on this particular subject for which I find I am to some extent held personally responsible, because there has been during the present year a somewhat unusual run of successive reprieves. I have seen it said in the Press that this was due to my preparation for tonight's Debate. I repudiate that absolutely. I have applied to the cases that have come in front of me during the early months of this year exactly the same rules as I have applied during the whole of my period of office. As I am quite certain the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) will agree, these runs happen on occasion. Sometimes the run is a very substantial run of reprieves; sometimes it is a substantial run of cases in which there is no reprieve.
    Sir J. Anderson: Arthur Henderson had it the other way.
    Mr. Ede: I can assure the House that this Debate has not influenced me in any way, and, in fact, I should be exceedingly blameworthy if I allowed anticipation of something else to influence me in carrying out this very responsible duty. This run of reprieves shows that the duty of considering these cases is discharged with every care by successive Home Secre-
    1084
    taries, and I know enough of the attitude of my predecessors in this matter from my inquiries in my present office to appreciate that the rules that I apply have during recent years been regarded as the appropriate ones to apply in these cases.
    It may be of interest to the House if I give, as evidence of the way in which this works out, the figures relating to certain living Home Secretaries; I am not endeavouring to draw any invidious comparison, because it will be found, in fact, that the figures work out remarkably evenly. For the greater part of the year 1911, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was Home Secretary. In that year, 16 murderers were executed and 14 reprieved. In the year 1936 the present Lord Simon was Home Secretary, and nine were executed and 17 reprieved. In 1939 the present Lord Templewood and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) were responsible for different periods of that year, and that year nine were executed and 15 were reprieved. In 1947, which was a year for which I was entirely responsible, II were executed and 18 were reprieved. The House will see that the rules are fairly evenly applied by successive Home Secretaries.
    I am bound to say that in my conversations with people during the time since I spoke on the Second Reading of this Bill on 27th November, I have found among ordinary workingclass people—in which I include salary earners as well as wage earners—an increasing feeling that the time has not come for this reform to be made. I have been surprised, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury was, at the unanimity with which this feeling is expressed. I do not share the view of the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) that there is anything derogatory if a Member of Parliament on a matter of this kind listens to views made calmly and in the course of ordinary conversation by people whose respect for the law has to be maintained if this country is to continue to be a law-abiding community.
    Mr. Baxter: May I ask the Home Secretary what he would say in this case? Suppose a Member of Parliament finds himself at variance with the majority opinion in his constituency, should he then speak and vote against his own conscience?
    Mr. Ede: No, he should not. I share the view of Burke that we are not delegates, but, on the other hand, one of our duties is to ensure in matters like this that we keep respect for the law alive in the hearts of people who have to submit to its administration. I hope that we shall in these and other matters connected with this Bill, have regard to the fact that it is a very great thing for this country that the ordinary citizen believes that the law and those who administer it are sufficiently strong to prevent evil-doing and to punish evil-doing appropriately when it has occurred. I do not think that public opinion in this country shares the view, expressed with great eloquence this afternoon, that there is something intrinsically wrong in taking the life of a person who has deliberately and of malice aforethought taken the life of another person. There may come a time when that will be the general feeling in the country, but I am certain that it is not the feeling in the country at the moment.
    I ask the House, in considering this case, to bear in mind that in the postwar years we have seen the emergence in this country of a class of gangster and armed criminal which hardly existed at all before the war. We have in this country also—and it is a great pride for this country—an unarmed civilian police force. I meet these police constables on duty and off duty as I go about the country in the various places where they serve their local police authorities. They are a body of men of whom this country can quite rightly be proud, for they undertake the risk, without arms, of preserving law and order in spite of their very small numbers in proportion to the rest of the country. Even when they are up to establishment they are far less in numbers in proportion to the population of the country than the police of any other country with which I have been able to compare the statistics. Now these men are faced at the moment with the emergence of this armed gangster and armed criminal type. They have the right to expect that all the while they are unarmed we shall make it quite clear that the criminal who uses arms or violence in his attempt to evade the police shall be dealt with with the utmost severity, and I regard the importance of that as very great indeed. Let us take the case of Constable Edgar. He was
    1086
    on plain clothes duty, he went along a path towards the door—
    Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I understand that the case to which my right hon. Friend is now referring is awaiting trial by the courts. Is it right to refer to it?
    Mr. Speaker: I have no idea of what is awaiting the courts. Does the hon. Member mean the murder?
    Mr. Silverman: We do not know yet whether it was murder.
    Mr. Speaker: It depends on what the Home Secretary is going to say. He can use it as an illustration, I think.
    Mr. Silverman: On that point of Order, I do not want to be malicious, but nobody yet knows whether murder has been done in that case.
    Mr. Speaker: The Home Secretary is saying what happened to Constable Edgar; he need not necessarily make any reference to anybody who is accused of murdering him.
    Mr. Ede: I do not want to take any unfair advantage in this particular case, it is within the knowledge of the House. The right hon. Gentleman alluded to other cases in which the police have been in difficulties. It is now almost impossible to get through a week without finding in the Metropolis some case in which the police have been subjected to great personal violence by criminals who are attempting to evade arrest, and it is only a matter of luck in a good many of these cases whether death occurred or not.
    Mr. Frank Byers: This is an interesting argument. Would the Home Secretary say why, then, he abolished flogging?
    Mr. Ede: The answer to that is perfectly clear. There was a Departmental Committee on flogging which made a report that was unanimous, and genuinely unanimous. By that I mean that every member of the Committee signed the document when the report was completed in which they advanced the view that flogging was no deterrent to the commission of crimes of violence.
    Mrs. Nichol Mrs. Nichol (Bradford, North) rose—
    Mr. Ede: No, I cannot give way. I suggest to the House that the present position in regard to crimes of violence is such that flogging could not have been inflicted on anyone for an assault on the police in an effort to evade arrest. I hope the House will allow me to submit a series of figures, which I suggest ought to be given very grave consideration before anyone makes up his mind on this subject. In 1938, 97 murders of persons over one year of age were committed in this country. In 1946 the figure was 138 and in 1947 it was 134. I know my hon. Friends who support the Motion say that that is in spite of the death penalty, but neither side can prove anything in regard to its deterrent effect. I am perfectly entitled to say that in my view but for the death penalty the figure would have been much higher—
    Mr. S. Silverman: Does the right hon. Gentleman say it?
    Mr. Ede: No, but I do deny the right of my hon. Friend to say that he knows it would not have been higher—
    Mr. Silverman Mr. Silverman rose—
    Mr. Ede: I have already given way several times and I am already well beyond the time—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Silverman: I think the House is entitled to know from my right hon. Friend not merely whether he is entitled to say that but for the death penalty the figure would have been higher, but whether in fact he does say it.
    Mr. Ede: In this matter my opinion is no better than that of anyone else, but if my hon. Friend wants my opinion, my opinion is that but for the existence of the death penalty the figure would have been higher. I cannot put it any higher than a personal opinion.
    In regard to felonious and malicious wounding which is very often the commencement of something which might lead to murder and where sometimes a person may in the coarse of the assault recollect that if he goes too far he may commit murder the figures of conviction in 1938 were 244, in 1946, 370 and in 1947, 402. I say that those are very serious figures for this House to consider. I commend them to the House in the spirit in which this Debate has been conducted today for their thoughtful consideration before the votes are cast.
    1088
    The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson Harris) made a speech in which he asked what was the opinion of Sir Alexander Paterson, a man whose name was held in great veneration on both sides of the House, by people who have given any thought to the question of the administration of criminal justice in the country. As I think the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude) proved from the passage he read from the Report of the Select Committee, Sir Alexander Paterson was opposed to the abolition of the death penalty because he could find no answer to the question that was put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities as to what is the alternative for the worst class of murderer who now suffers the supreme penalty of the law. He was a man who had given, both in this country and in other countries, great attention to the problem of prison sentences, and the view expressed in his evidence was that if we were to have a prison sentence that public opinion would tolerate as the alternative to the death penalty—if the death penalty were ever abolished—it would have to be so long that it would make it impossible to conduct the prison service of this country on the lines that he desired it to be conducted, and on the lines of reform for which he was so very largely responsible.
    There has been no answer to that problem in the course of the Debate today. The Clause provides that there shall be imprisonment for life as the alternative to the death penalty. I say to the House that they can rest assured of this: that any person who suffers the supreme penalty of the law is a person for whose crime it is impossible to find any legitimate excuse. My right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, who was almost my immediate predecessor in office, and the two right hon. Gentlemen who are now sitting opposite, who have both been Home Secretary, will, I am quite sure, bear me out in that.
    The administration of the law of this country has become increasingly generous in this respect. There was a time when the only thing that the Home Secretary took into account was whether the person was technically insane, and was removed from his jurisdiction by a finding of insanity by qualified medical men who

    1089
    visited the prisoner. During my period of office, as during the period at least of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities—I am not sure whether it goes back as far as the period of office of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford—in addition to those, these medical officers on occasion report that while the person is not certified as insane there is such a mental abnormality as to make it, in borderline cases, doubtful whether, at the time of the commission of the crime, he was sufficiently responsible to be subjected to this extreme penalty.
    Then there are the cases where extreme provocation has been shown, or where the right defence has not been advanced on occasions at the trial; learned counsel for the defence, on occasions, in consultation with the Judge and the Home Secretary of the day, say, "Well, we advanced the plea that our client did not do it because we thought we could establish that," and they have failed. They then bring to the notice of the Home Secretary circumstances connected with the crime which their line of defence has precluded them from advancing at the trial. The very fullest consideration is given to any submission that is made in that respect. The right hon. and learned Gentleman was challenged whether it was not possible that mistakes might not be made. May I say that, of course, no one can give an absolute answer to that. With all the precautions in the world there may be an occasion when human fallibility lets people down, but I am quite certain that if anyone listens to the summing up of the judge when he always warns the jury, in any kind of case, that any reasonable doubt must be resolved in favour of the prisoner, that applies even more to the consideration which is given at the final stage in these cases.
    Mr. Stokes: No.
    Mr. Ede: My hon. Friend says "No." He has never been Home Secretary yet. I can assure him, and I am in the presence of predecessors in office, who have held office in very differing periods, that there is no responsibility which falls on any Minister of State which gives greater personal concern to the man who has to discharge it alone than successive Home
    1090
    Secretaries feel in the discharge of these duties.
    The House has had a long and I think significant Debate on this issue. I want to thank them for the way in which the Debate has been conducted, but I am bound to say, in conclusion, that the Government, having very carefully considered this matter over a period of months, recommend the House not to pass this new Clause tonight. They ask the House to reject the new Clause. But we recognise that this is a matter on which persons feel an individual personal conscientious responsibility. Therefore, the Government Whips will not be put on, but none the less we do urge the House to reject this new Clause. We believe that the figures I have given with regard to the number of executions is sufficient to indicate that the very greatest possible personal responsibility is undertaken in the discharge of the Home Secretary's heavy duty, and we ask the House to accept that as the reasonable way of dealing at the present time with this very difficult issue.
    9.59 P.m.
    Mr. Paget: In the course of this long Debate, almost every argument that could be of value has been presented. I propose to say very little indeed, and to say it very briefly. The main point made by the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) and by the Home Secretary himself was to ask us, "What is your alternative? What would you do to these men"— who were referred to as wild beasts—"if you do not hang them?" Upon that question, the authority of Sir Alexander Paterson was referred to again and again. It was said, "Here you have this great humanitarian, Sir Alexander Paterson who said that the death penalty in these circumstances is the more merciful." The House may be interested to hear that before Sir Alexander Paterson's death, he joined the Society for the Abolition of Capital Punishment and became a subscriber to that society, precisely because he saw that the alternative was now available.
    Of course, there are men like Heath whom it would never be safe to loose on society again—nobody dreams that it would—and in the old sort of prison it may be that long, indefinite incarceration would be more cruel than death and

    1091
    would not give the spirit of a man the chance to reform; but in the new prison system—the prison system which comes with the Bill, which was so much the result of Sir Alexander Paterson's life—he saw there was an alternative, and that was why he changed his mind. In 1931, he thought it inappropriate, but at the time of his death he thought it appropriate and, therefore, all that evidence is turned right round.
    I want to make only one other very small point. It is on the question of certainty, on which so much has been said. We are told, "You know there is not any real risk on this question of certainty. Mistakes are not really made." I would just say this in regard to that statement. I have a record here, a list of the names of some dozen innocent people hanged in this country, most of them, of course, a long, long time ago. I have also a list of some 60 names of people who were wrongly convicted, according to forms of British common law, after trial by judge and jury in America; each of these is the name of a person whose innocence was clearly established, but was established afterwards. That does not very often happen. We do not often find the proof afterwards, but the alarming thing is that, in the cases where proof does turn up afterwards, they are so often the cases which at the time appeared to be the most clearly proved.
    Take the case of Bradford, the innkeeper. The facts were these. One of his guests had said in the hearing of Bradford that he had got some money with him. Groans were heard from that guest's room, two other guests broke in and there, standing over the bloody body of that guest with a bloody knife in one hand and a lantern in the other hand, was Bradford. He was apparently caught red-handed; one could not have a clearer case. No court of appeal would have interfered with that decision and no jury could have decided otherwise. But later it was proved wrong by a confession. The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities said confessions are not always final, but this confession was sealed by the production of the jewels belonging to the dead guest by the man who confessed he had taken them away. Bradford had been hanged, however.
    1092
    Let us take the case of Hebron. Hebron was proved by the clearest evidence to have been guilty. There was his boot—a hand-made boot with a most distinctive nail pattern—beside the murdered policeman, a policeman whom he had threatened to shoot. No jury could have found otherwise, and the Court of Appeal could not have interfered. Fortunately for him, Hebron was only just 18, and the sentence was respited. Then there was Charles Peace, who sat an interested spectator in court throughout the hearing, and confessed to the crime, and produced the most detailed evidence that he had committed it. The bullet taken from the murdered constable's body was proved to have
    been fired from Charles Peace's revolver. That could happen today. Of course, it could. There is nothing to prevent it.
    I will take one other case which shows the real fallacy of this argument. There were two citizens, one of Brooklyn and one of Massachusetts, charged in their respective States with the same murder. They were both convicted. It was common ground that
    that murder had been committed by only one
    man. The Brooklyn jury found beyond reasonable doubt that that man was the Brooklyn citizen, and the Massachusetts jury was convinced it was the Massachusetts citizen—on the same evidence.
    We ascertain these matters only by trials. Trial is an uncertain instrument. If it were not an uncertain instrument, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) and I would be earning our incomes by false pretences. The moment we require absolute certainty, we abolish the death penalty. In Mohammedan law adultery is a capital offence, but since the requirement of proof is the evidence of seven eye witnesses, the death penalty is not inflicted. Mosaic law worked on the same basis. Yet the Sanhedrim, which in 3o years convicted one single man of a capital offence, was known to history as the "Bloody Sanhedrim." The moment we require real certainty we abolish capital punishment, because real certainty is not afforded to man. Only God and the accused know the real truth. The circumstances may look very clear, we may think we are right; but we cannot be certain.

    1093
    There is one other point I would make. There is one set of events which, since 1938, has changed two men's minds. One of those men is the Home Secretary, and the other is a predecessor of his, Lord Templewood. Upon this issue I believe Lord Templewood is profoundly right. What he has said is, that the experience which he gained during the war, from seeing the Fascist regime, is that human personality is a sacred thing, that this is a principle that admits of no compromise, and that the consequences of subjugating the individual to the interests of the State have been seen in Germany. That was the reaction on Lord Templewood.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton) quoted what the Italian Fascist Minister of Justice said, when the death penalty was restored, not because of any increase in the homicide rate, but because the death penalty was fundamentally in tune with Fascism—
    "… the Fascist conception, according to which the individual was only an infinitesimal and transitory element in the social organisation and must, therefore, subordinate his own interests and his very existence to the organisation of the State."
    There, in splendid candour, is the real case for capital punishment. For my part, I am willing that the dictators shall have their gallows, their guillotines, their firing squads and gas chambers: that is a form of protection which they may need. But we are the citizens of a proud democracy, and we dare to live without these things.
    Fundamentally, tying up a man, and then coldly and deliberately taking his life is an evil thing. Anybody present at an execution would know with certainty in his own heart and soul that he had been present at an evil thing. No witness who has appeared before any of these inquiries has said otherwise than that when he had come from an execution he felt unclean
    —and he was right so to feel. There is only one test for the difference between good and evil, and that is what something indefinable within us tells us is good, and what that indefinable thing tells us is evil. Nobody who had been at an execution could think otherwise than that he had been in contact with an evil thing. There is only one real and safe guide for humanity: good does not come out of evil, and good does not result from doing things known to be evil. To me, that is enough answer to this whole question. The death penalty is an evil thing, and no good can be got by it.
    It has been said that in this matter we are asking for an innovation and a change. We are doing no such thing. In 10 murders out of 11 we are asking for no change. In the eleventh case it is not we who are asking for change, but those who oppose this new Clause. Our opponents are asking for the most vital of all changes: the change between life and death. Human life and human personality are things which cannot be created by us, and which cannot be recalled by us. Surely, the burden of proof is upon those who wish to take life. It is for them to prove, and to prove beyond reasonable doubt, that it is necessary to take the life which they wish to take. When hon. Members cast their votes tonight they will be deciding whether many men condemned and to be condemned shall live or die. That is a formidable responsibility, and before they plump for death in that Lobby they should be even more certain of the necessity of what they would do than the jury which has to decide the destiny of but one man.
    Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    The House divided: Ayes. 245; Noes, 222

    Division No. 124.

    AYES

    [10.15 p.m.

    Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

    Barstow, P. G

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

    Bartlett, V

    Bramall, E. A.

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Barton, C.

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Battley, J. R.

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Baxter, A. B

    Brown, T. J. (Ince)

    Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

    Benson, G.

    Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Beswick, F.

    Bullock, Capt, M

    Austin, H. Lewis

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Burden, T. W.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Blyton, W, R.

    Burke, W. A.

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

    Boardman, H.

    Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Bowden, Fig. Offr. H. W.

    Byers, Frank

    Baird, J

    Bowles, F.G (Nuneaton)

    Carmichael, James

    Balfour, A.

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Chamberlain, R. A

    Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

    Pritt, D. N.

    Chetwynd, C. R

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H

    Cluse, W. S.

    Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)

    Randall, H. E

    Cobb, F. A.

    Janner, B

    Ranger, A.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Rankin, J.

    Coldrick, W

    Jeger, Dr. S. W (St. Pancras, S.E.)

    Reeves, J.

    Collick, P.

    John, W.

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Collins, V. J.

    Jones, Elwyn (Ptaistow)

    Renton, D.

    Colman, Miss G. M.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Richards, R.

    Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

    Kendall, W. D.

    Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

    Corbel, Mrs. F. K, (Camb'well, N W.)

    Kenyon, C.

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Cove, W. G.

    Kinley, J.

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Crawley, A.

    Lang, G.

    Rogers, G. H. R.

    Crossman, R. H. S

    Langford-Holt, J.

    Royle, C.

    Cunningham, P.

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Daines, P.

    Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

    Sargood, R.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Lever, N. H.

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Levy, B. W.

    Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Lewis, J. (Bolton)

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Deer, G.

    Lewis, T. (Southampton)

    Skinnard, F. W.

    Diamond, J.

    Lipson, D. L.

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    Dobbie, W.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Smith, H. N, (Nottingham, S.)

    Dodds, N. N

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

    Donovan, T.

    Lyne, A. W

    Sollery, L. J.

    Driberg, T. E. N

    McGhee, H. G

    Sorensen, R. W

    Dumpleton, C. W

    McGovern, J

    Stokes, R. R.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Mack, J. D.

    Strong, Dr. B

    Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)

    Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

    Stubbs, A. E

    Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

    Maclean, N. (Govan)

    Swingler, S.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Sylvester, G. O

    Ewart, R.

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Symonds, A. L.

    Fairhurst, F.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield)

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Farthing, W. J

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Teeling, William

    Field, Capt. W. J.

    Mathers, Rt. Hon. George

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E L

    Medlicott, Brigadier F.

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Follick, M.

    Mellish, R. J

    Tiffany, S.

    Foot, M. M.

    Messer, F

    Timmons, J.

    Forman, J. C.

    Middleton, Mrs. L

    Titterington, M. F

    Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Ungoed-Thomas, L

    Freeman, Peter (Newport)

    Miltington, Wing-Comdr. E R

    Usborne, Henry

    Gallacher, W.

    Mitchison, G. R

    Vernon, Maj. W. F

    George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

    Monslow, W

    Viant, S. P.

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Moody, A. S.

    Wadsworth, G

    Gibson, C. W.

    Morley, R.

    Walker, G. H.

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Walker-Smith, D

    Granville, E. (Eye)

    Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

    Wallace, H. W (Walthamstow, E)

    Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)

    Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

    Watkins, T. E

    Grenfell, D. R

    Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

    Weitzman, D.

    Grey, C. F.

    Murray, J. D

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Nally, W.

    West, D. G.

    Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N)

    Westwood, Rt. Hon. J

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden

    Noel-Baker, Capt. F E. (Brentford)

    While, H. (Derbyshire, N.E)

    Gurrter, R. J.

    Oliver, G. H

    Wigg, George

    Hale, Leslie

    Orbach, M.

    Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

    Paget, R. T.

    Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

    Harris, H. Wilson (Cambridge Univ)

    Paling, Will T (Dewsbury)

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Palmer, A. M. F

    Williams, R. W. (Wigan)

    Herbison, Miss M

    Pargiter, G A

    Williams, W. R (Heston)

    Hicks, G.

    Parker, J.

    Wilts, Mrs. E. A.

    Hollis, M. C.

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Wise, Major F. J

    Holman, P.

    Peart, T. F.

    Woods, G. S.

    Horabin, T. L

    Perrins W

    Wyatt, W.

    House, G.

    Piratin, P.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Hoy, J.

    Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

    Hubbard, T.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Hudson. J H. (Ealing. W.)

    Porter, G (Leeds)

    Mrs. Florence Paton and

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)

    Prescott, Stanley

    Mr. Heathcoat Amory.

    NOES

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

    Bennett, Sir P

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

    Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot Univ)

    Berry, H.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

    Bevin, Rt. Hon. E (Wandsworth, C.)

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'td'n)

    Astor, Hon. M

    Binns, J.

    Carson, E.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R

    Blackburn, A. R.

    Channon, H.

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S

    Barlow, Sir J.

    Boothby, R.

    Clarke, Col. R. S.

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

    Bower, N.

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

    Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

    Boyd-Carpentar, J. A

    Collindridge, F.

    Bechervaise, A. E.

    Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

    Conant, Maj. R. J E

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr J. G

    Cooper-Key, E. M

    1096

    1097

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

    Robens, A.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

    Keeling, E. H.

    Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

    Crowder, Capt. John E.

    Keenan, W.

    Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)

    Daggar, G.

    Kerr, Sir J. Graham

    Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Key, C. W.

    Robinson, Roland

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

    Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

    Drewe, C.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

    Leslie, J. R.

    Scollan, T.

    Duthie, W. S.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Scott, Lord W.

    Dye, S.

    Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

    Scott-Elliot, W.

    Eccles, D. M.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Sharp, Granville

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Low, A. R. W.

    Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W

    Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    McAdam, W.

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Mac Andrew, Col. Sir C.

    Snadden, W. M.

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    McCorquodate, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Snow, J. W.

    Fox, Sir G.

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

    Macketon, Brig. H. R.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Spence, H. R.

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

    McKinlay, A. S.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

    Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D

    Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster)

    Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Gammans, L. D.

    McLeavy, F.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Gates, Maj. E. E

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Gibbins, J.

    McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Gilzean, A.

    Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

    Studholme, H. G.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Maitland, Comdr, J. W.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Gooch, E. G.

    Mann, Mrs. J.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Gordon-Walker, P. C.

    Manningham-Buller, R. E.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Grant, Lady

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Gridley, Sir A.

    Marples, A. E.

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Marsden, Capt. A.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Guy, W. H.

    Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

    Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil

    Maude, J. C.

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F.

    Hardy, E. A.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

    Morris-Jones, Sir H.

    Tolley, L.

    Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

    Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

    Harrison, J.

    Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

    Touche, G. C.

    Harvey, Air-Cmdre. A. V.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Haughton, S. G.

    Mort, D. L.

    Turton, R. H.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

    Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wakefield, Sir W. W.

    Henderson, John (Cathcart)

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Walkden, E.

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Nicholson, G.

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Herbert, Sir A. P.

    Nield, B. (Chester)

    Watson, W. M.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

    Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

    Hobson, C. R.

    Odey, G. W.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Oldfield, W. H.

    White, Sir D. (Fareham)

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H

    White, J. B. (Canterbury)

    Hope, Lord J.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Whileley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Howard, Hon. A.

    Peaks, Rt. Hon. O.

    Wilkes, L.

    Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

    Pickthorn, K.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Hurd, A.

    Poole, Cecil (Lichfield)

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

    Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    Price, M. Philips

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Price-White, Lt-.Col. D.

    Woodburn, A

    Jarvis, Sir J.

    Pryde, D. J.

    York, C.

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Raikes, H. V.

    Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

    Jennings, R.

    Ramsay, Maj. S.

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)

    Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

    Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

    Mr. S. N. Evans and Mr. Gage.

    Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

    Clause added to the Bill.
    Mr. Hale: On a point of Order. I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker, in regard to the new Clause and the Amendments which I have on the Order Paper. Do I understand that the Amendments to the new Clause will now take their proper place on the Order Paper or will they be taken now?
    Mr. Speaker: The Amendments on the Order Paper to the new Clause must be taken now, and if the Amendments are
    1098
    passed the new Clause must be amended accordingly. This is the time for the hon. Member to move his first Amendment if he so wishes.
    Mr. Hale: In view of what has taken place I do not intend to move any of my Amendments.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Powers of court in relation to absconders from approved schools, etc.)
    (1) Where a person in whose case an approved school order has been made is brought

    1099
    before a court of summary jurisdiction under Section eighty-two of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, or paragraph 8 of the Fourth Schedule to that Act (which relate respectively to absconders and persons guilty of serious misconduct), the court may, subject to the following provisions of this Section—

    (a) in any case, either make a new approved school order in his case, or order him to be taken back to the school and extend the period of his detention under the original order by such period not exceeding six months as the court may determine;

    (b) if he has attained the age of sixteen years, sentence him to Borstal training.

    (2) An order under paragraph (a) of the last foregoing Subsection extending the period of detention under an approved school order shall have effect notwithstanding any limitation imposed by the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, upon the period for which a person may be detained in an approved school; and in relation to a new approved school order made under that paragraph, Sections seventy-one, seventy-three and seventy-four of that Act (which relate to the period of detention under approved school orders and to supervision and recall) shall have effect as if for any reference therein to the age of nineteen years there were substituted a reference to the age of nineteen years and a half.
    (3) Subject as hereinafter provided, His Majesty may by Order in Council prohibit courts of summary jurisdiction from making orders under paragraph (b) of Subsection (1) of this Section, and any such Order in Council may be limited to persons of one of the sexes, and, whether so limited or not, may be made so as to apply either to any persons ordered to be detained in approved schools or only to persons ordered to be so detained otherwise than for an offence:
    Provided that no Order in Council shall be made under this Subsection until the Secretary of State is satisfied that adequate methods, other than Borstal training, are available for dealing with the persons to whom the Order relates.
    (4) A draft of any Order in Council under the last foregoing Subsection shall be laid before Parliament, and the draft shall not be submitted to His Majesty in Council unless each House of Parliament presents an Address to His Majesty praying that the Order be made.—[Mr. Ede.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    10.30 p.m.
    Mr. Ede: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This new Clause is moved in accordance with an undertaking I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) in Committee. Its effect is to consolidate the provisions relating to the powers of courts of summary jurisdiction to deal with absconders from approved schools and persons found guilty
    1100
    of serious misdemeanour in approved schools. It provides that Orders in Council may be made prohibiting courts of summary jurisdiction from sentencing to Borstal training in such cases if the Secretary of State is certain that adequate methods other than Borstal training are available for dealing with persons to whom the Order relates. There has been a misgiving on the part of many hon. Members on both sides of the House with regard to what happens to young persons who are sent to approved schools, sometimes without having committed an offence, and then, through a breach of -discipline at the approved school, find themselves ultimately in a Borstal institution. This point was very
    carefully considered by the Committee. I undertook to deal with it on Report stage, and I think the new Clause fully covers the pledges I gave.
    Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Reports of probation officers.)
    Where a report by a probation officer is made to any court (other than a juvenile court) with a view to assisting the court in determining the most suitable method of dealing with any person in respect of an offence, a copy of the report shall be given by the court to the offender or his counsel or solicitor:
    Provided that if the offender is under seventeen years of age and is not represented by counsel or a solicitor, a copy of the report need not be given to him but shall be given to his parent or guardian if present in court.—[Mr. Ede.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Ede: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    It was felt in Committee—and it is a view I have long held myself—that where a report is made on a person he should know what that report contains. It is to my mind quite wrong that a report should be handed to the chairman of the bench, or to the chairman of a juvenile court, and that the bench should consider the report and perhaps reach a decision detrimental to the person appearing before the court without that person knowing what has been actually said about him. It is clear that there are obvious opportunities for error in such a case, and I think it is only right that this new Clause should be added to the Bill.

    1101
    The House will observe that there is a proviso to the Clause, which relieves the court of the responsibility of showing the report to an offender if he is under 17 years of age and is not represented by counsel or a solicitor, but in such cases a copy shall be given to his parent or guardian, if present in court. The need for that proviso is that the report may make serious reflections on the parents and possibly on the home conditions and surroundings of the young person, and it is felt that it would not tend to make for smooth working of the home if this were disclosed to a child under 17 years of age. Apart from that, this Clause will ensure that any report from a probation officer considered by the court will be known to the accused person before the court.
    Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Arrest on failure to surrender to bail before courts of summary jurisdiction.)
    Where any person has entered into a recognizance conditioned for his appearance before a court of summary jurisdiction and in breach of that recognizance fails to appear, the court may, without prejudice to any power to enforce the recognizance, issue a warrant for his apprehension.—[Mr. Ede.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Ede: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This case has been brought to our attention by the present Chief Magistrate for the Metropolis. Sometimes it is desirable, in the interests of all concerned, that an accused person who has been found guilty shall not have sentence passed upon him immediately, but shall be remanded so that the court can possibly make inquiries, or can possibly consider what is the appropriate way to deal with him. The curious situation arises that, at the moment, he cannot be compelled to come back to a court of summary jurisdiction to hear the sentence pronounced. It is highly desirable that the accused person should be in court when sentence is pronounced. This new Clause will enable a court, where an accused person declines to attend, to issue a warrant for his apprehension so that he may be brought before the court. I am sure the House will agree that it is an anomaly that a
    1102
    person, having been convicted, should be able to defy the court and lead to the recommencement of the whole proceedings.
    Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Murder first degree.)
    Every person who causes the death of another shall be guilty of murder in the first degree if the act by which the death is caused—

    (a) is done with the deliberate and premeditated intention of causing death; or

    (b) is done with the deliberate and premeditated intention of causing such bodily injury as the offender knows is likely to cause death of the person to whom the harm is caused; or

    (c) if it is done with the deliberate and premeditated intention of causing bodily injury to any person and the bodily injury intended to be inflicted is sufficient in the ordinary course of nature to cause death; or

    (d) is so imminently dangerous that it must in all probability cause death or such bodily injury as is likely to cause death and deliberately and with premeditation commits such act without any excuse for incurring the risk of causing death or such injury as aforesaid.—[Mr. Hector Hughes.]

    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This Clause speaks for itself. Its object is to divide the crime of murder into two degrees, to bring it more into consonance with the actualities of life. It is not affected by the decision to suspend the death penalty for murder, which has just been passed. I think it will ensure that major crimes will meet with major punishment, and that minor crimes will meet with minor punishment. I am addressing myself, Kr. Speaker, with your permission, to the two new Clauses in my name—the second one being:

    (1) Every person who causes the death of another shall be guilty of murder in the second degree if the act by which the death is caused—

    (a) is done with the intention of causing death; or

    (b) is done with the intention of causing such bodily injury as is likely to cause death; or

    (c) is done with the knowledge that he is likely by such act to cause death.

    (2) Every person convicted of murder in the second degree shall be liable to imprisonment for any term not exceeding twenty years and

    1103
    to such fine (if any) as the court shall determine.

    The idea of these two new Clauses is not a novel one. It is the law in parts of the United States of America, where in some States there are four degrees of murder, and in others, five degrees. My suggestion is that the crime of murder here should be divided into two degrees. We find murder divided into different degrees also in some European countries, such as Austria, where it is divided into four degrees, and in India, under the Indian Penal Code—probably the best penal code the world ever saw. That code was drafted
    many years ago by the Indian Penal Commission, under the chairmanship of Mr. Macaulay, afterwards Lord Macaulay. It has worked well in those countries, and in my submission it will tend to prevent injustices, to protect the public, and to make the punishment fit the crime. I think it speaks for itself, and I do not propose to address the House at any great length upon it.
    At present we have, in British law, different kinds of penalties for different kinds of killing. First, we have manslaughter, which is the unlawful and felonious killing without any malice express or implied. Examples of such killings would be: culpable neglect, for instance, to feed or protect a child, or to strike another person, in a sudden quarrel, or to strike a blow on provocation. Then we have the crime of murder, the one-degree crime of murder, which is where a person of sound memory and discretion unlawfully kills another with malice aforethought, either express or implied.
    The object of these new Clauses is to divide the existing crime of murder into first degree and the second degree. I think the House will agree that there are different degrees of turpitude in murder. There is the kind of murder which is committed with premeditation and deliberation—such, for instance, as those committed by Burke and Hare who murdered in order to provide surgeons with bodies for dissection; George Joseph Smith who married a wife, insured her life, then murdered her by drowning in a bath, collected the insurance money and promptly married another woman, went through the same
    1104
    procedure, and then married a third woman with the same result. In that case there was premeditation and deliberation. That type of murder, along with the poisoning type, as in the case of Armstrong and Seddon, is easily distinguishable from the kind of murder which is of less turpitude—such, for instance, as the case of the returned soldier who finds his wife unfaithful and murders her lover. That, though murder and cannot be condoned, is easily distinguishable in its degree of turpitude from the other class to which I have referred.
    The object of these new Clauses give legislation sanction for the division of those murders into the two classes—one which is committed with the premeditated and deliberate intention of causing death, and the other type which is perpetrated without premeditation or deliberation. Lest it might be thought that there would be difficulty in distinguishing between the two types, I may say that there is authority for the proposition that the words "premeditated" and "deliberate" have been judicially defined in the countries where murder is so divided, and there should be no difficulty on that score. In fact, in this country at present the Home Secretary divides murder into two classes by reprieving some murderers and not reprieving others. I do not think there is any difficulty in distinguishing between premeditation and deliberation on the one hand, and mere intention without premeditation and deliberation on the other.
    Mr. Speaker: Does any hon. Member rise to second the Motion? As there is no Seconder, the new Clause falls.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of 7 Edw. 7, c. 23, s. 9.)
    The Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, shall be amended by the addition of the following new Subsection to Section nine (which deals with the supplemental powers of the Court) that is to say:
    "(2) In any case in which the Court consider it expedient in the interests of justice, and on application made for that purpose on behalf of the appeal, the Court of Criminal Appeal may either in lieu of or in addition to the exercise of its powers under paragraphs (a) to (e) inclusive of Subsection (1) of this Section, order a new trial to be had upon the whole or any part of the indictment."—[Mr. Hogg.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Hogg: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    I think it might be convenient if I were to describe the purpose of this and the next new Clause on the Order Paper relating to the Criminal Appeal Act. It has long been complained of in our criminal law that the Court of Criminal Appeal has no power, as have other courts of appeal in this country, to order a new trial in circumstances where the previous trial has, for some reason, proved unsatisfactory. I think I may say, in moving this new Clause, the purpose of which is to give the Court of Criminal Appeal the right to order a new trial, that I have the support of a great body of opinion inside the legal profession and of repeated judicial statements of the opinion of the Court of Criminal Appeal itself. I have the support, too, of one of the most eminent academic lawyers in this country, who supported this Clause in a long letter in "The Times."
    10.45 p.m.
    The absence of the power to order a new trial has led to inconvenience and injustice in two separate ways. One of these, I think, is a hindrance to the conviction of the guilty, and the other is a hindrance to the rights of the innocent. So far as the guilty are concerned, the facts of the matter are these. Where a person is charged with an offence, and for any reason either the verdict of the jury does not make sense, or the learned judge is guilty of a technical misdirection which none the less is of such a character that it could not have had any influence on the jury's mind, the Court of Criminal Appeal is visited with the necessity of quashing the conviction and releasing the prisoner, even though most reasonable people would have considered the prisoner a guilty person. The Court of Criminal Appeal has again and again said that the proper remedy is to order a new trial, and I submit that that is the right course.
    If the first of the Clauses standing in my name is accepted, it will have this effect, that where a convicted person appeals—and it must be remembered that the Crown cannot appeal from an acquittal—and the Court of Criminal Appeal comes to the conclusion that the appeal should be allowed, they have the power, if it is apparent that the interests of
    1106
    justice demand it, to order a new trial instead of simply quashing the conviction.
    The other case is in the interests of accused persons. Hon. Members will recall that, in a recent case of murder for which a person was convicted, it so happened that, in the interval between the time of the conviction and the date fixed for execution, another person confessed to the very same crime. The convicted person thereupon asked for leave to appeal against his conviction on the basis that he wished to call fresh evidence before the Court of Criminal Appeal. Up to that time it was thought that the Act of 1907 covered the case, but it was decided by a very strong court that it did not exercise such a power. I was present and heard that decision, and I must say that I was rather shocked to think that an injustice might some day be done if the Court of Criminal Appeal would not hear fresh evidence in such a case. I found, however, that the decision was right and sound. The Court of Criminal Appeal was not a tribunal of the right kind to hear oral evidence, and the proper course would have been to have had a new trial.
    I will not trouble the House with the phraseology of the Clauses, but I would say, incidentally, that there is a serious misprint. What I ask from the Attorney-General is that he should indicate that the Government are sympathetic to the view that the principle behind these new Clauses is right and that, either they will accept the new Clauses, or that they will frame new Clauses of their own which will cover the same points as those which I have put forward.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross): I must confess at the very outset that I have great doubt about the wisdom of the innovation which is proposed in this new Clause. I think there are occasionally before the Court of Criminal Appeal cases where the facts are perfectly clear, where there is no doubt that the jury's verdict was correct but where, owing, as my hon. Friend has said, to some possible technical mistake in the summing up or some mistake on the part of the prosecution, the Court of Criminal Appeal has been compelled to hold that there has been some misdirection or some wrongful admission of evidence and consequently, to allow the appeal and to let the appellant go free.

    1107
    But these cases are really very exceptional. I do not think that the interests of justice are substantially prejudiced by the fact that on occasion a guilty man may go scot-free. Certainly, I do not sleep uneasy in my bed, or allow my sense of justice to be outraged because now and again an accused person has in the past got the benefit of a mistake made by the prosecution or even, occasionally, by the courts.
    Moreover, the Clause as drafted—and I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is not wedded to the terms of the Clause as drafted—would enable a man to be tried again for an offence for which he had actually been acquitted, and I think that the case to which the hon. Member referred, that of Cooper and Compton, the two police officers, was actually a case of that kind. It was a charge of conspiracy based on particular, separate offences which were themselves also the subject of individual and distinct counts of the same indictment. The jury found that these men were not guilty on any of the individual counts which formed the basis of the general conspiracy charge; in other words, they clearly indicated by their verdict that they disbelieved the evidence of the prosecution on these individual charges, but none the less they found the prisoners guilty of conspiracy, thus holding that the greater did not include the less, at least on this occasion.
    That was, of course, obviously a bad and illogical verdict, but retrial in such cases, on the individual charges in such cases, would mean, that a man was tried again for an offence of which the jury had specifically found him not guilty. Hitherto it has been a fundamental principle of our law that the plea of autrefois acquit is an absolute bar to any further proceedings against that individual for the offence of which he has been acquitted. If we are to encroach upon that old principle by a new provision of this kind, I think we shall have to do it with the very greatest care.
    Moreover there is another objection to this new Clause to which I now feel bound to draw the attention of the House. Can the retrial in circumstances of this kind ever really be a fair trial? A man has been convicted already and that conviction has been published in the newspapers. If he had previous convictions,
    1108
    these have been announced in court and probably published in the newspapers. The judge, perhaps, before sentencing the man has made scathing comments upon his offence and upon his past career. Very likely the Sunday newspapers, unless they are more deterred in future than they have been in the past—and of course their legal position would be altered by the adoption of this provision in our law—by the fear of proceedings for contempt, of court, would have taken the opportunity of publishing lurid details about his private life and other alleged offences that he had committed. Then, on top of all that, the case would have gone to the Court of Criminal Appeal, which would have decided that in spite of technical grounds for allowing the appeal—there may have been a technical misdirection or possible admission of evidence not strictly admissible—the case was so serious against the appellant that he should be put on trial again. In face of these facts, with that knowledge present in the minds of the second jury which would re-try the case, it would not be easy for a second jury to take a retrial with completely open minds and to banish all sense of prejudice from them.
    Again, on the Clause as drafted, how often is a new trial to be ordered? Suppose that after a second trial there is a further appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal, and it is again found that there is a misdirection or a wrong admission of evidence. Is the wretched appellant to be submitted once more to a further trial for an offence for which he has perhaps
    been acquitted twice by a jury? What provision is to be made with regard to costs? These are difficulties which I am bound to point out to the House because I view this proposal with a great deal of misgiving.
    On the other hand, the Government cannot close their minds to the fact that the judges of the Court of Criminal Appeal have repeatedly sought some such power as this as being necessary for the proper administration of justice. We must accept the view that occasionally—very occasionally, and subject to great safeguards—there may be some cases in which it is desirable that there shall be a, new trial. We must feel assured, as indeed we would expect, that if this new power is given, judges will exercise it with the greatest discretion, most sparingly, and in only quite exceptional cases.

    1109
    We are therefore not prepared to accept the Clauses in the terms drafted on the Order Paper, but to accept the principle. We are prepared to accept the principle subject to safeguards as to new trials for the same charge, as to the possibility of more than one trial being ordered in respect of the same matter, in respect of costs, and so forth. If, in the light of what I have said, the hon. Member for Oxford is prepared to withdraw the new Clause now, we will undertake to give consideration to the matter and the principle involved, and to introduce Clauses into the Bill when it is considered in another place.
    Mr. Hogg: In view of that reasonable reply, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Removal to Broadmoor institutions of certain persons serving life sentences.)
    If in the case of a person sentenced uncles the Section (Suspension of death penalty) of this Act to imprisonment for life the Secretary of State is satisfied, after considering a report as to the mental condition of that person by two duly qualified medical practitioners appointed by the Secretary of State for the purpose, and any other material circumstances, that that person ought to be removed to a Broadmoor institution, the Secretary of State may order him to be removed to and detained in such an institution; and the Criminal Lunatics Act, 1884, shall apply to any person so removed as if he were a Broadmoor patient.—[Mr. S. Silverman.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. S. Silverman: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    All I need say is that this new Clause is consequential upon the House having accepted an earlier one.
    Mr. James Hudson: I beg to second the Motion.
    Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Summary Jurisdiction (Appeals) Act, 1933, 23 & 24 Geo. 5. c. 38.)
    Paragraph (a) of Subsection (1) of Section seven of the Summary Jurisdiction (Appeals) Act, 1933, is hereby repealed, and the following paragraph shall be substituted therefor:
    "(a) in appointing members of the committee quarter sessions shall, so far as practicable, select justices having special quali-
    1110
    fications of the hearing of appeals, and for appeals against decisions of juvenile courts, justices specially qualified for dealing with juvenile cases."—[Mr. Turton.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    11.0 p.m.
    Mr. Turton: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This Clause deals with a small but important point in regard to appeals to quarter sessions. Under the Summary Jurisdiction (Appeals) Act, 1933, which I had the honour to introduce to this House, it was laid down that an appeal panel of quarter sessions must be composed of justices having special qualifications for the hearing of appeals. Under the Children Act, any juvenile court justice must be a justice specially qualified for dealing with juvenile cases. It, therefore, results that an appeal from a juvenile court does not go to justices having special qualifications for dealing with juvenile cases, but merely to justices having special qualifications for the hearing of appeals. This is anomalous and undesirable.
    The object of the children's courts is to have justices of the father class of age rather than that of the grandfather or great-grandfather class, and it is my suggestion that the courts of quarter sessions should have a panel of justices specially qualified for the hearing of appeals from juvenile courts, who shall combine an aptitude for hearing appeals with an aptitude for hearing juvenile cases. I would remind the House in this connection that appeals from quarter sessions are heard de novo. Unless this new Clause is adopted, it means that the justices hearing a juvenile case have not got the same qualifications in the second instance as they have in the first. The whole House will agree that that is highly undesirable.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: I beg to second the Motion.
    There is very little I can add to what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), but it is a most extraordinary anomaly that we are trying to correct. There is a special panel for the juvenile court in the first instance, but if an appeal is to be made from that court, it goes to a body completely unqualified to deal with juvenile cases—the ordinary quarter sessions, without any special qualifications

    1111
    for hearing juvenile cases. I should have thought it was very easy either to have a special panel at quarter sessions to deal with juvenile cases, composed of people experienced in and having an aptitude for such work, or alternatively to have trained a special panel of appeals magistrates from the juvenile panels of petty sessions magistrates who were not engaged in the particular case when it was before the lower court. It is a possible alternative.
    In any event, the principle seems to be abundantly clear, that, having fought very hard and successfully for special juvenile courts where cases are entrusted to people qualified in juvenile cases, it is ludicrous that, if there is an appeal and a retrial, it is heard by people without special qualifications. I hope what is intended in the Clause is considered by the Government to be a practical, constructive and sensible suggestion, and that it commends itself to the Home Secretary.
    Mr. Janner: First, I would say that in consideration of the various Clauses in this Bill it has been generally understood that there is no question of any party consideration being taken into account. I have, therefore, very much pleasure indeed in rising to support this new Clause. I think it is highly essential, and I hope my right hon. Friend will agree that it is essential, that in these cases of appeal where a juvenile is concerned, the circumstances should be as near as possible similar to those which prevail with regard to the original hearing in which regard is had to the special position of the juvenile.
    I was sorry that my hon. Friend did not go further, for at a later stage the Home Secretary might consider it advisable not only to see that a panel of this nature is appointed for the purpose of considering juvenile cases, but that the circumstances in which the appeal itself is conducted—the surroundings in which the appeal is heard—shall in some measure approach the lines on which the ordinary juvenile courts are run. But that, of course, does not detract from the importance of the new Clause itself, which certainly ought to be carried and to he conceded by the Home Secretary. Let us recognise that it is quite unreasonable, in the case of an appeal, that those people who are not specially qualified and
    1112
    not so regarded by the Home Office itself to deal with juvenile cases should sit in judgment.
    Mr. Ede: I should have thought that if the existing law were properly applied the requirement in the new Clause would be met when the appeal committee of quarter sessions is appointed. As a member of an appeal committee of quarter sessions, I think it is doubtful whether this point has always been considered when the appeal committee has been appointed, and of course, only members of the appeal committee can sit, which is a comparatively modern innovation. I think that on occasions, certainly at London sessions, the appeal was sometimes almost a trial by public meeting, because so many justices turned up, and it was to prevent things of that kind that the law was altered to its present form.
    I think it would be desirable for courts of quarter sessions to understand that this point must be met. After all, a justice who is qualified to sit in a juvenile court is one of the justices of the peace for the county or borough in respect of which the sessions are being held, but not all the justices are qualified to sit in juvenile courts. Let us suppose that there are half-a-dozen appeals, only one of which is from a juvenile court. The juvenile court magistrates who have been appointed—magistrates accepted as suitable for juvenile court work and appointed in their petty sessional division to sit in juvenile courts—are qualified to sit as members of quarter sessions, and can be appointed to the appeals committee.
    I think therefore that the case for this new Clause is reasonable. It will give to the clerks of the peace, when they advise justices on the appointment of the appeals committee, something definite to bring to the notice of quarter sessions. For that reason, I accept the new Clause.
    Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Second Schedule to Criminal Justice Act, 1925, 15 & 16 Geo. 5, c. 86.)
    (1) Paragraph 11 of the Second Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act, 1925, shall be amended by the insertion of the following words after "Section eighteen," "Section

    1113
    twenty where the amount of the money on the value of the property in respect of which the offence is committed does not exceed twenty pounds."
    (2) Paragraph 15 of the Second Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act, 1925, is hereby repealed and the following paragraph shall be substituted therefor:
    "Committing an indecent assault upon a person, whether male or female."—[Mr. Turton.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Turton: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    The House will recollect that in the Criminal Justice Act, 1925, a number of offences were laid down in the Second Schedule which were indictable offences and were triable summarily with the consent of the accused. In these offences there is the whole range of stealing, obtaining by false pretences, and embezzlement, but not the fraudulent conversion cases triable summarily. Experience in some areas of the country has shown that this is undesirable in the limited number of small cases of fraudulent conversion, where one may find that the treasurer of some small club fraudulently converts a few pounds. It may well be that he is a man of previous good character, and that restitution has been made. Yet that case has to go through the whole parade of quarter sessions or assizes. If justices are competent to try cases of embezzlement or false pretences, in which a great many difficult points of law may arise, it is reasonable that they should also try certain cases of fraudulent conversion, and thereby save the public and the accused expense and worry.
    That is the first part of this new Clause. The second part of it is a great deal stronger. At present justices have power to try cases of indecent assault on persons, male or female, under the age of 16; but they have not the power to try these cases if the victim is over 16. My first submission to the House is that the second class of cases is of a less serious nature than the first. I make no reflection on the police when I say that the fact that this second class has to go to quarter sessions or assizes results in a number of reported cases of this less serious character not being tried at all, owing to the fact that all the expense and concern of committal is involved. There is a number of cases, I regret to say, of offences in cinemas and similar offences of that nature—not very serious, but highly undesirable—in which
    1114
    the perpetrator is committing a great nuisance and demoralising people, and which are not brought to trial, in my submission, because of this Act. I think the time has come when we can trust summary courts with the trial of certain cases of indecent assault on persons over the age of 16. I hope the House will accept this new Clause. I have put, in connection with fraudulent conversion, a limit of £20, which is the limit laid down in other parts of the Second Schedule of the 1925 Act, to avoid the fraudulent conversion of any large sums being triable summarily.
    11.15 p.m.
    Mr. Joynson-Hicks: I beg to second the Motion.
    The difficulty one has in following my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) is that he leaves one so little to say, because he covers the ground adequately. However, it means that I shall not detain the House for any great length of time. With regard to Subsection (2) of this new Clause, I think it is quite essential in the very nature of things to remember that assaults on people under 16—and we are considering indecent assaults—are likely to be far more serious than assaults on people over that age; and it has always appeared to me to be a defect in the law that an indecent assault on a person under 16 can be dealt with at petty sessions, whereas an indecent assault on a person over 16 cannot. It certainly is the fact, as one can discover from many different sources of information, that these annoyances and unpleasantness—it is inappropriate to call them criminal actions—are committed with unhappy frequency, and unless they can be dealt with summarily it is unlikely they will be checked, and that the un-savoury incidents will continue. That is the reason for inserting Subsection (2).
    With regard to Subsection (1), this is mainly to deal with an evident gap in the law. If the petty sessional courts can already deal with stealing, embezzling, and obtaining by false pretences, there is no logical reason why they should not also deal with fraudulent conversion, because, as my hon. Friend said, the crime of obtaining by false pretences may, and frequently does, raise problems as intricate and delicate in law as any accusation of fraudulent conversion. Therefore, I do feel that to leave fraudulent conversion

    1115
    alone out of the matters which can be dealt with by the petty sessions, so that such a case has to go to quarter sessions, is an instance of using a sledge-hammer to smash a peanut. The sledge-hammer method is useful in the bigger cases, but it is scarcely necessary to use all the paraphernalia, and to go to all the trouble, expense, inconvenience and disturbance, which the sending of a case to quarter sessions sometimes involves, in a comparatively trivial matter that does not involve more than£20. I hope, therefore, that the Home Secretary's mood is still in the same favourable condition as during consideration of the last new Clause we moved, and that he will be able to accept this one.
    Mr. Maude: I have a consideration to moot on this matter. I have not had an opportunity of discussing it with my hon. Friends, but I think it will appeal to them as being of some importance. It arises from practical experience, and concerns Subsection (2). When a person is committed for trial for an indecent assault on a female—I am thinking of an actual case—it does so happen now and then that the jury thinks, and the court thinks with it, that a common assault has, in fact, been committed. If a person is committed to quarter sessions and convicted of common assault, the court has power to impose a sentence not exceeding 12 months, and very often that is the right sentence. If a person is dealt with by the
    justices, they have not the power to sentence him to anything like 12 months for common assault. Whereas I am in favour of the fundamental idea behind this new Clause—I think there is a great deal of nuisance of this sort going on all over the place—I hope some thought will be given to the second part of it, to see whether it is really wise. Particularly in relation to this, there is undoubtedly a temptation to get rid of a case in a summary way by dealing with it in the summary court, and that is not really the right way. It ought to go to quarter sessions. These are my views and I put them forward humbly, but I think there is something in them.
    Mr. Ede: I think the case is quite sound with regard to the first of these proposals. I would point out, however, that the Second Schedule to the Criminal
    1116
    Justice Act, 1925, was very carefully drawn up, and if there had been the intention of a general revision of it, there might have been other proposals than those which appear on the Order Paper, which might have been included in a proposed new list to be added to the Schedule. But I think the case on the first proposal has been made out.
    With regard to the second, I am not quite sure that the rectification of the anomaly which the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) proposes is not really to make an indecent assault on a person under 16 also one that must go to quarter sessions for trial. I share his view that it is a more serious offence, generally speaking, although there are, of course, exceptional cases. I very largely share the opinion expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude). I do not think it would be wise to accept Subsection (2) of this new Clause. I suggest to the House that we should read the new Clause a Second time, and when the proposition is made "That the Clause be added to the Bill," if Mr. Deputy-Speaker will accept it, I will move an Amendment to delete Subsection (2). I think that the views I have put forward are logical and if any alteration is to be made, it should be to remove indecent assault on a child under 16 from the Schedule rather than to bring indecent assault on an adult into the Schedule.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I am sure the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) is to be congratulated on the second success he has achieved this evening. I am sure we all welcome the Home Secretary's attitude towards the first part of this new Clause. In years gone by, I have experienced considerable difficulty in cases framed to be triable summarily because of this difficulty of the quarter sessions. I have risen to my feet only because of the Home Secretary's observations with regard to Subsection (2). I take the view that there is great merit in Subsection (2), and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give further thought to it. For once, I rather disagree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude). It is quite true that while the maximum for common assault triable at quarter sessions will exceed the maximum sentence passed at petty sessions,

    1117
    there are, of course, cases where a common assault, although not indecent in character, is more serious in nature than a technical indecent offence. I, personally, do not see any real risk of justice not being adequately administered following upon the acceptance of Subsection (2) of this Clause. I think that where there is any doubt in the minds of a Petty Sessions—
    Mr. Deputy - Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and learned Member, but I am wondering whether, for the convenience of the House, it would be possible to ensure more rapid passing of this Clause if we were to agree to its being read a Second time. Then, on the Motion, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," the Home Secretary could move to omit the last part.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I am sorry if I was out of Order.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. and learned Member was not out of Order, but I thought it would be better to divide the Clause in that manner.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I was expressing these views so that the right hon. Gentleman could give further consideration to the matter. I do not wish to address the House at length, and had nearly concluded when you interrupted me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I suggest that it would give greater scope to petty sessions, and I do not believe that this would be an amendment of the law which would be followed by any degree of danger regarding the administration of justice.
    Mr. Ede: I beg to move to leave out Subsection (2).
    May I say, in answer to the hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) that recently there have been some comments in certain high judicial quarters—
    Sir Ian Fraser: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker; there is no Motion before the House.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is moving an Amendment.
    Sir I. Fraser: The right hon. Gentleman cannot move an Amendment without there being a Motion before the House.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Home Secretary.
    Mr. Ede: You, Sir, put the Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."
    Sir I. Fraser: With respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, you never put that Question.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I would point out that if I were to put that Question, and if it were carried, there could be no possible deletion of any kind.
    Mr. Ede: I moved that Subsection (2) be deleted. There have been recent remarks in certain high judicial quarters about justices, on occasion, dealing with matters which—
    Sir I. Fraser: I do not want to be obstreperous, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but Order is Order, and I beg for your Ruling whether it is in Order that there should be a Motion to amend something which is not before the House.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am sorry if I seem to show a lack of knowledge on this point, but I gather that the Home Secretary is in Order—that this Amendment has to be moved before that question that the Clause be added to the Bill is put to the House.
    11.30 p.m.
    Mr. Ede: I will make a third effort. I hope the fact that I have again to allude to high judicial authority will not get me into trouble elsewhere. There have been remarks, which I think were justified, made quite recently about the way in which some justices deal with matters which ought to go for trial to a higher court. I cannot help thinking that if we include this second provision in the Second Schedule to the 1933 Act there may be occasions when that error will be repeated. I think I have shown myself to be quite reasonable in accepting the first part of this proposed new Clause. In view of the reasons that I have given, I think it would be desirable that this second Subsection should not be added to the Bill, but that when an appropriate opportunity occurs it is right that a provision concerning indecent assault on a child under 16 years of age should be added to the Second Schedule to the 1933 Act. It is because I believe that that is the proper way of redressing the anomaly to which the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) drew attention that

    1119
    I made the remarks that I made originally, and I hope he will feel that, in accepting the first part of the new Clause, I have gone a considerable way towards meeting the point he had in mind.
    Mr. Turton: In view of the helpful attitude of the Home Secretary, it is very difficult for me to resist this Amendment, but I would like to ask him one question. There will be an opportunity for him in another place to reconsider the Bill. Will he, in the meantime, think over this problem? It may well be—I do not deny it—that some courts of summary jurisdiction assume to themselves jurisdiction over cases that should more properly be tried by courts of assize or courts of quarter session. That is a general criticism, and really the inclusion or exclusion of indecent assault on children over 16 years of age is not affected by that argument, in my submission. I would like to point out to the Home Secretary that by deleting this Subsection he is not dealing with the problem of the similar nuisance. That is a real problem in our big cities. The victim is not inclined to give evidence in a court of assize or in a court of quarter sessions, though the victim, if a girl, would be ready to give evidence at petty sessions.
    I wish to say no more tonight, but I do hope the Home Secretary will reconsider this matter, and if, on mature reflection, he thinks there is a case for Subsection (2) he should reconsider it at a later stage. This new Clause was submitted to the Home Office as long ago as 1938 by one of the larger counties in England, and, therefore, it is not a new problem that is being posed. This problem was included in that proposition which was then made by that county.
    Mr. Ede: I will certainly consider it.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Section 4 of Forfeiture Act, 1870.)
    For Section four of the Forfeiture Act, 1870, there shall be substituted the following Section:
    "Compensation to persons defrauded or injured by felony.
    4. It shall he lawful for any such court as aforesaid, if it shall think fit, upon the application of any person aggrieved and immediately after the conviction of any
    1120
    person for felony or misdemeanour, to award any sum of money not exceeding two hundred pounds, by way of satisfaction or compensation for any loss of or damage to property or injury to the person suffered by the applicant through or by means of the said felony or misdemeanour, and the amount awarded for such satisfaction or compensation shall be deemed a judgment debt due to the person entitled to receive the same from the person so convicted and the order for payment of such amount may be enforced in such and the same manner as in the case of any costs ordered by the court to be paid under the last preceding Section of this Act."—[Mr. Renton.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. David Renton: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    May I point out that the marginal note is the same as the original marginal note to Section 4 of the Forfeiture Act, 1870, which can, however, be adjusted if this Clause is passed as it stands. The purpose of this Clause is to bring up to date the powers granted by Section 4 of the Forfeiture Act and slightly to widen those powers. As the law now stands, under Section 4 of the Forfeiture Act, 1870, any court convicting a person of felony may award up to £100 by way of compensation to the person aggrieved. This useful power saves the trouble of taking separate civil proceedings arising from the same subject matter as the crime, but it saves that only in certain rather limited cases. The jurisdiction is limited to £100, which used to be the jurisdiction of the county courts in civil cases.
    The changes which I propose are simple, and there are four of them. The first change is to increase the £100 to £200, which is the ordinary limit of the county courts jurisdiction; the second change is to add "or misdemeanour" where that is proper, so that where the misdemeanour has been committed the court will have the same power as where a felony was committed. Hon. Members will know that felonies and misdemeanours are obsolete. The Clause allows compensation to be granted only for loss of property, but I suggest "loss of or damage to property" should be added, and while we are about it, we might as well include "or injury to the person." Compensation up to £200 will save, in ordinary minor cases, separate civil proceedings, and this is so more especially in regard to motoring offences. There are, fairly frequently, simple cases of motoring

    1121
    offences where the criminal court can dispose straight away of the subject of the small amount of damage or hospital expenses outstanding, and if this Clause is accepted this would become possible. I commend to the House this simple Amendment to an old provision.
    Mr. Gage: I beg to second the Motion.
    I certainly feel the greatest sympathy with what has just been said, because throughout this Bill I think the emphasis has been upon the prisoner rather than upon the person offended, and I am, therefore, glad now to see this new Clause being considered. Everyone is familiar with the cases of unfortunate people who have suffered serious loss through crime. I need not reiterate the type of case, but one can think of old ladies defrauded and left penniless by people who have got a considerable amount of money and who could readily make recompense to me people they have defrauded. Their case could be dealt with by the courts to which these people would normally have recourse, and they could get compensation if the person was worth his powder and shot.
    Under the criminal law it is quite possible for the judge—and I would certainly have it left to the judge and not to the jury—to be seized of all the facts and to make up his mind on them. It is a question of the type of case in which a man who has got the money has been convicted of an offence in the committing of which he has caused serious injury or fraud to some unfortunate person. Nothing could be simpler than for him to make recompense. At the present time, as the House will know, it is possible for a court, if a man has got in his possession some article which has been stolen and which can be shown to have been stolen, to order him to hand it back to the person from whom he stole it. Therefore, it does not seem to me that the new Clause goes very much further than the present position.
    Mr. Maude: Has this power ever been used since 1870? I have never heard of it being used. It is quite new to me. It is a thoroughly hopeless proposition, it seems to me, for a criminal judge to decide damages in a running-down action where someone is prosecuted for any injury on the road. I have never heard of it at all.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Younger): I cannot directly answer that question at the moment. I may be able to get the information. I was under the impression that it had been used, though not very frequently. I understand that there was an accepted opinion that it was possible for it to be used in the case of courts of summary jurisdiction, but that, in fact, no court of summary jurisdiction had used it but it had been used by a superior court on occasion.
    The hon. Members who moved and seconded the new Clause will he aware that, although no doubt there may be cases where the procedure they propose would be convenient, they are, nevertheless, raising quite a considerable issue by suggesting that this very much wider range of cases, each of a civil nature, should be tried by the criminal courts. As regards the first proposal, namely, increasing the amount which can be awarded, that, I think, is a very arguable point. The sum now proposed is probably not far short, in real terms, of the £100 provided at the time of the Forfeiture Act. If that stood alone, it is a thing that one might consider, but the other points are really much more important, particularly, the one which suggests that this should he extended not only to damage to property but also to personal injury.
    I think that the moment one widens the provision to include personal injury, one compels a court which is primarily a criminal court to consider a large number of things which they should not consider in any detail, except in the criminal sense alone. It would not necessarily be any part of the evidence in the prosecution of the criminal offence to prove in detail what the personal injury suffered was. It would probably in many cases be necessary, following upon the conviction by the court to call fresh evidence which had not been before it in respect of the criminal offence. I think it is recognised that, whereas this provision for £100 in the case of the loss of property was put into the Forfeiture Act, what was being done was to whittle down the older penalty for felony. Since then the whole tendency has been to leave questions of compensation to the civil courts.
    I think it would be inappropriate in very many cases that criminal court

    1123
    juries, already very heavily engaged in many cases, should at the end of each criminal hearing be compelled to go on to consider what might be quite a hotly-argued issue of a civil nature involving fresh evidence. I think—particularly in view of the reforms which we hope will be introduced shortly to make civil proceedings more accessible to those of limited means—that it is far more simple that these issues should continue to be dealt with, as they almost always have been in the past, by the civil courts. I recognise there might be a limited number of civil cases where it would be an additional expense for a petitioner to take the matter to a civil court, but I think this is in only limited classes of cases, and certainly the Clause as drafted would cover a very much wider field. I am afraid that the Government cannot commend the Clause to the House.
    Mr. Renton: Might I ask one question? As the Measure is repealing Sections 6–30 of the Forfeiture Act, and as the hon. Gentleman appears to disagree with the procedure prescribed by Section 4, why does he take the trouble to leave Section 4 specifically on the Statute Book?
    Question put, and negatived.
    Further consideration of the Bill, as amended, adjourned.—[Mr. Wilkins.]
    Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered Tomorrow.

  CRIMINAL JUSTICE [MONEY] (No. 2)
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69. (King's Recommendation signified.)
  [Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]
  Resolved:
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to abolish penal servitude, hard labour, prison divisions and sentence of whipping, to amend the law relating to the probation of offenders, and otherwise to reform existing methods and provide new methods of dealing with offenders and persons liable to imprisonment, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

  (a) of any increase in the sums so payable under Section four of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act, 1908, which is attribut-
  1124
  able to any provisions of the said Act of the present Session whereby persons charged with indictable offences who are acquitted or discharged, or whose appeal against conviction is allowed by the Court of Criminal Appeal or in whose favour an appeal to the House of Lords under Subsection (6) of Section one of the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, is determined, may receive out of local funds costs incurred in the conduct of their defence or on appeal;

  (b) of any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in the conduct of research into the causes of delinquency and the treatment of offenders and matters connected therewith, and of such sums as the Secretary of State may, with the approval of the Treasury, direct to be paid towards the expenditure of any body or person approved by the Secretary of State in the conduct of such research."—[Mr. Ede.]

  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of East Dereham, a copy of which Order was presented on 12th April, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Swinton and Pendlebury, a copy of which Order was presented on 12th April, be approved."—[Mr. Younger.]

  CIVIL AIR ACCIDENTS (INQUIRIES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Wilkins.]
  11.50 p.m.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Before Easter I was fortunate enough to draw this date in the ballot for the Adjournment. At that time I notified the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation that I had drawn this date in the ballot and that I intended to deal with inquiries into air accidents. He acknowledged that by letter, and added that he would be glad to take part in the Debate. I am surprised that he is not in his place tonight. I do not know whether the Chief Whip would like to make a statement as to his whereabouts.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Whiteley): I had hoped my hon. Friend would have been here. I will make inquiries to see whether he is about.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: I appreciate what the Chief Whip has said. In the past on these occasions the Parliamentary Secretary has been very courteous in replying to these Adjournment Debates. In the meantime I will proceed and perhaps the Solicitor-General, who has some knowledge of inquiries into air accidents, will pass on my points to his hon. Friend when he arrives.
  Last July we had an Adjournment Debate on the question of air accidents, and the Parliamentary Secretary agreed that there was a strong case for renewing the procedure as it now exists. Under Statutory Rules and Orders, 1922, 650, certain rules were laid down. I am very pleased to see that the Parliamentary Secretary has arrived. I had only started my remarks, and I was saying that last July had a Debate dealing with air accidents. The hon. Gentleman admitted at that time that the Statutory Rules and Orders, as they stood then, required revision. I will quote what the hon. Gentleman said
  "We have negotiations going on at the moment with the Chief Inspector of Accidents and the Inspector of Railway Accidents, with a view to bringing the best of the railway accident machinery into our own."
  He said later:
  "Equally we accept the suggestion which has already been acted upon, that the matter should be submitted to the Consultative Council for Civil Aviation, and a paper is being prepared for my noble Friend to submit to them and get their views. Everything possible will be done, every point of view will be canvassed and considered, because it is our desire that we shall get a form of inquiry which will give absolute confidence to the air operators, to the men who fly the machines, to the ground staff who assist and to the public who travel by them."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd July, 1947: Vol. 439; c. 1671–72.]
  I take it that that means that the Parliamentary Secretary and his noble Friend felt there was a strong case for bringing about an up-to-date method of going into these accidents.
  I quite agree—and the Parliamentary Secretary will agree—that civil aviation is going through a most difficult time so far as accidents are concerned, and there is public concern that the matter should be brought up to date. The Minister and
  1126
  the Parliamentary Secretary have repeatedly stressed the question of safety. The public must know the full details of these accidents, and not just the opinion of one man carrying out an investigation. Last August, the Newton Committee was set up, following the Adjournment Debate in July, to inquire into the method of investigation, as a sub-committee of the Consultative Council for Civil Aviation at the request of the Minister. I gave evidence to that Committee last autumn. The terms of reference, as I understand them, were quoted in a letter from the Parliamentary Secretary in "The Times," in which he said:
  "The terms of reference of this sub-committee were to inquire into the procedure governing investigations into accidents to civil aircraft in the United Kingdom and to British civil aircraft abroad."
  In that letter to "The Times" on 5th March he also said:
  "The decision not to publish the report on procedure is in no way connected with the publication of investigations of individual accidents."
  The main point is that many of us are not satisfied with the present method of carrying out these investigations. In fact, we are most dissatisfied, because the findings of technical inquiries into air accidents are still being published, and in some cases imputing responsibility or attributing blame without any opportunity of being heard being given to the person in question, or in the case of death, to his representatives, or relatives, to cross-examine any of the witnesses.
  I will not at this late hour repeat what I said last year, but I say again that as the Chief Inspector of Accidents is employed by his own Ministry—I quite agree his investigations are always unbiased, I do not suggest otherwise for one moment—I think it is quite wrong that the Minister should employ a man who is carrying out his own investigation. It may already have happened that he has had to criticise people such as airfield controllers employed by the Ministry of Civil Aviation, who may be found to be at fault. It is accepted that the inquiries are (a) purely fact finding, (b) have no power to subpoena witnesses, (c) evidence is not given on oath, (d) witnesses cannot be cross-examined. I think that the procedure is particularly unfair to captains of aircraft and aircrew who have lost their lives. I really believe that.

  1127
  There was the case of the accident which took place in Northamptonshire a few months ago, which has been debated on the Adjournment, and in which it was a question of the pilot having had some drinks. Well, no one said how many drinks he had. After 45 minutes he went off with a very experienced pilot as passenger and they were both unfortunately killed. No evidence was given by the barman who had served the drinks and yet it was stated in the Press and in the findings that this man was under the influence of drink. It was most unfortunate for his young widow and it caused great distress. I say that it is quite wrong to investigate accidents in this way.
  So I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary why his noble Friend has refused to accept the findings of the Newton Committee. He may have very good reasons for not accepting them. It is entirely a matter for his Minister. But is he afraid of losing some authority if he accepts these recommendations? If so, will he say so frankly to the House? Will he publish the recommendations so that those in civil aviation and hon. Members of this House may know what they were? That Committee worked extremely hard to get all the facts available and make their recommendations. Finally, may I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he or his noble Friend has received any communication from the chairman of the Newton Committee since the investigation? We have had numerous inquiries on these points in the House. The statutory rules and orders are over 20 years old. It is important that the inquiries should be made in the right way. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to be quite frank with the House and let us know what the position is.
  11.58 p.m.
  Squadron-Leader Kinghorn: I imagine that hon. Members on both sides of the House are in thorough agreement with what has been said by the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey). We are on the threshold of great activities in the air. We are obviously expanding our activities, and the Minister himself, time anti time again, has said that the main objective is safety. Travel in the air is going to increase enormously. In order to get our people air conscious, we must be absolutely cer-
  1128
  tain that all the facts about the difficulties of these air accidents are brought before the public. Some of us in the House tonight had experience in the war years in the R.A.F. and know how these accidents took place day after day and night after night, and owing to the secrecy of war circumstances, they had to be kept within the bounds of the R.A.F. If the full publicity had been thrown on these accidents an improvement might have been brought about greater than we in the R.A.F. could have brought about ourselves.
  Until the railways were nationalised, whenever there was a serious accident an independent inquiry was always held at the first opportunity. There was an absolutely independent investigation. There was no bias that could be brought to bear at all. What we want in these circumstances of increasing travel by air, a developing air industry, and the bounds of civil aviation widening day by day, is that the public should be perfectly assured that every time there is the slightest slip up, every time there is a departure from the policy enunciated by the Minister of "safety, safety, safety," investigation into these accidents shall be free and unfettered, and not conducted by an employee of the organisation. I speak for a lot of hon. Members on this side when I say that we give absolute support to the contention of the hon. and gallant Member opposite.
  12.2 a.m.
  Mr. Keeling: I support what has been said, and I would like to remind the House of the way in which the unsatisfactory procedure in these air accident inquiries was demonstrated a few months ago, in the case of an aircraft chartered in the Channel Islands which crashed on the way to England, with the loss of all lives except that of one woman passenger. The inquiry showed that many regulations were broken. There were several offences by the pilot or his owners. The pilot was carrying passengers without a commercial licence, and he had previously for many months flown without any licence at all. The aircraft had been operated without any maintenance schedule having been approved, and without any proper inspections having been made. There were also several offences by Ministry officials—and this is very important. Unauthorised methods of

  1129
  stating time in signals were used, which caused the expected time of the aircraft's arrival to be misunderstood, and that led to long delay before any search was made; and there was no proper traffic control at the port of arrival.
  Here was a serious state of affairs which demanded searching inquiry, yet the Chief Inspector at the inquiry said:
  "All questions will be put by me. There will be no cross-examination of witnesses."
  By that ruling he was, consciously or unconsciously, shielding his own Ministry, which had been guilty of several offences, as I have shown. No wonder that counsel appearing before him, one of whom was an hon. Member on the opposite side, made vigorous protests. One counsel said:
  "We were assured in the House of Commons that legal representatives would be permitted at these inquiries. If none of the legal representatives are to do any of the things for which legal representatives are customarily employed, there is no effective implementation of that promise to Parliament."
  And the other counsel said:
  "If I cannot cross-examine in the way that has been good enough for courts of justice for hundreds of years, I do not propose to take any part in the inquiry at all."
  These administrative tribunals—because the fault is not confined to the tribunals set up by the Ministry of Civil Aviation—seem to be a law unto themselves. There is a far more satisfactory system in the United States, where such tribunals are subject to a code of procedure laid down by statute. It is high time we had a similar system here, so that these tribunals may come into line with the principles of natural justice and with the procedure of the courts, so far as it is applicable. Unless that is done the public uneasiness which undoubtedly exists about these air accidents will continue and will increase.
  12.5 a.m.
  Wing-Commander Millington: I came into this House as a pilot, and as a pilot I intervene in this Debate. I am primarily concerned with the protection of the employees in the aircraft, when investigations are made into air accidents, but, as one who has spent some years of his life flying aeroplanes, I am interested also to see that there shall be a fair, full and proper development of flying as a method of transportation. My
  1130
  desires in this respect—and the desires of many Members of this House—are being frustrated by the suspicion that is being caused by the attitude taken by the Ministry of Civil Aviation towards air accidents. That suspicion is that there is not full and proper investigation of each and every accident as and when it occurs.
  I would ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary whether he will make overtures to his noble Friend—who is, indeed, our noble Friend—to see that the Report of the Newton Committee is made available to Members of this House. In particular, I think it is important that it should be made available with the comments of the Minister himself, after he has had a proper opportunity to study it. We want to know what is the verdict of the Newton Committee; and, in particular, we want to know what is the opinion of the Minister upon the findings of the Committee, so that, upon the Report and the Minister's comments upon it, we can make up our minds, as Members of the House, whether or not the Minister's comments fit the circumstances properly, and whether or not we should take effective Parliamentary action to extend and develop accident investigation.
  12.7 a.m.
  Mr. Rankin: I want to indicate my fullest support of what has been said, and to thank the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) for raising this subject tonight. The one point I want to emphasise has been touched upon to some extent already by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling). The one individual who can give information or evidence as to the cause of an accident to an aircraft is the one individual who is generally not there to give that evidence—that is, the captain of the aircraft. He is usually the victim. Because of that the one voice that could utter the most important evidence is the one voice that is not heard.
  We want tonight an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary that the interests of the captain of the aircraft machine, in the event of an accident, will be fully safeguarded, and that he will be completely represented. There is a feeling today in the minds of the public that time and again there is a tendency to cast a

  1131
  large share of the blame for the accident on the one individual who can make no reply to the slur that may be cast upon his capacity as a pilot. We want to have a complete assurance that precautions will be taken to ensure that the pilots are fully represented at the inquiries, which, I think we all agree, ought to be held.
  12.10 a.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): We are all indebted, as we so often are, to the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) for raising this matter, and for the manner in which he did so. I think we are much nearer agreement than Debates and Questions sometimes lead one to believe. Everyone is agreed that the present system of inquiry into air accidents is in need of overhaul. The difficulty arises when we have to decide what system is to replace it.
  Reference has been made by my hon.
  and gallant Friend the Member for Great
  Yarmouth (Squadron-Leader Kinghorn)
  to railway accidents. My noble Friend was associated with the legal profession and has a very high regard for that profession. I was a railwayman before entering the House and have had some experience of railway accident inquiries. I may say that I am in favour of the railway type of inquiry and I am not so much inclined towards the legal view. Thus, even between my noble Friend and myself, from a difference of approach there arises a difference, of opinion. These differences do not imply any criticism of the Chief Inspector of Accidents. I think he has done a first-class job. I think the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling), although I am sure he did not mean it, was a little unkind to him. He has carried out his job in accordance with the terms of reference within which he has to work and, if anything is wrong, it is the system.
  Mr. Keeling: May I point out that the hon. Gentleman denied the other day that the Chief Inspector of Accidents had any instruction from the Minister to refuse to allow cross-examination of witnesses?
  Mr. Lindgren: He has no instruction, but acts under the terms of reference laid down in the Air Navigation Act. The
  1132
  Chief Inspector is not a lawyer: he is a technician. If any non-legal person started to allow a semi-legal court to take place, he would be in a great difficulty. What we have to get is a system of inquiry into accidents which will ascertain the facts, in order that those responsible can prevent future accidents; and which will give confidence, especially to those who operate in the air, that the facts have been fully and fairly ascertained.
  It was because my noble Friend realised there was disquiet that he decided to get advice on future procedure in air accident inquiries. He referred the matter to the National Civil Aviation Consultative Council, which set up a sub-committee—the Newton Committee—whose Report is at present under consideration by the Council. Since the subcommittee presented its Report, I may say, as the hon. and gallant Member directly asked me, that I do know that the chairman has written a further letter to my noble Friend. I do not know the exact terms of that letter, whether there was any criticism of the Report or any further comment on it, but my noble Friend mentioned to me that he had received a letter in this connection.
  The responsibility for making a decision is the Minister's. Every Minister, in making a decision, or most Ministers in making a decision, take or seek advice from members of their departmental staff. But a Minister, either before or after he makes a decision, does not reveal to the House or to anyone else the terms of the advice he has received. To do so would destroy the confidential relationship between the person who is responsible for making the decision and those who, in another capacity, have the responsibility for giving advice. A Minister must take responsibility for making a decision; he must make it, explain his reasons for it, and bear the entire responsibility.
  This sub-committee has exactly the same advisory relationship to the Consultative Council as that council itself has to the Minister. Since the Consultative Council has not yet considered the matter fully, I feel, and my noble Friend feels, that it would not be right to publish the Report. I think the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper) put the problem in a nutshell when, at Question Time today, he asked if the

  1133
  Minister was not in a position to publish the Report, would not the Minister let the House know what his decision was, so that the House might discuss it.
  This, then, is the present position—that the Minister, upon the advice he has received, will make a decision, and that decision will be reported to the House. His decision, I have no doubt, will require revision of the existing orders. I am not quite certain whether revised orders have to be laid on the Table and are subject to a negative Prayer or not; but, though I do not want to be bound to this, I will give an assurance—because I am certain that my noble Friend is anxious that it should be given—that when these orders come to the House, there will be an opportunity for the House to discuss the Minister's decision in regard to future procedure in air accident inquiries.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman, but does that mean that when his noble Friend has taken the decision, the contents of the Report will be published at the same time?
  Mr. Lindgren: I cannot give an undertaking in regard to that.
  Wing-Commander Millington: Will the hon. Gentleman ask the Minister?
  Mr. Lindgren: I have already stated that I will do so, and I will report the desire of the House to him. After all—and I want to emphasise this—the Report is, in the first place, a report to the Consultative Council. It is not for the Minister, nor is it for me, as Parliamentary Secretary, to give an undertaking in regard to a body which is advisory to the Minister. The Report is the property of the Council and the Council certainly has some say about whether it feels the Report should be published: it may disagree with every point in the subcommittee's report, and it would be very embarrassing if it had to publish something with which it disagreed. But can give an undertaking that the decision, for which the Minister is responsible, and which it will be my duty, or at least I hope it will, to defend in this House—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty Minutes past Twelve o'Clock.

ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Bombing Exercises, Ot-Moor Range
  Bombing Exercises, Ot-Moor Range
  Building Work, Shinfield Park
  Building Work, Shinfield Park
  GIBRALTAR (GOVERNMENT LOTTERY)
  GIBRALTAR (GOVERNMENT LOTTERY)
  PALESTINE (FOOD SUPPLY, JERUSALEM)
  PALESTINE (FOOD SUPPLY, JERUSALEM)
  COLONIAL EMPIRE (TIMBER DEVELOPMENT)
  COLONIAL EMPIRE (TIMBER DEVELOPMENT)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Directory, Leicester
  Directory, Leicester
  Delays, Brentford
  Delays, Brentford
  Spain
  Spain
  WEST AFRICAN FRONTIER FORCE
  WEST AFRICAN FRONTIER FORCE
  POSTAL AND TELEGRAPH OFFICERS
  POSTAL AND TELEGRAPH OFFICERS
  PIG PRICES
  PIG PRICES
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Redundant Official
  Redundant Official
  Mining Machinery, Malaya and West Africa
  Mining Machinery, Malaya and West Africa
  SIAM (BRITISH CLAIMS)
  SIAM (BRITISH CLAIMS)
  SCRAP RAILINGS AND GATES (COMPENSATION)
  SCRAP RAILINGS AND GATES (COMPENSATION)
  STAMP DUTY
  STAMP DUTY
  CIVIL SERVANTS (POLITICAL ACTIVITIES, COMMITTEE)
  CIVIL SERVANTS (POLITICAL ACTIVITIES, COMMITTEE)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

LORD BRAINTREE.
Sir Valentine George Crittall, Knight, having been created Baron Braintree, of Braintree in the County of Essex—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
BIRMINGHAM UNIVERSITY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

GOVERNMENT INFORMATION SERVICES.
2.40 p.m.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government what is the present annual cost of Government Public Relations Officers and their staffs, and what was the cost in this regard prior to the war; also what is the total sum now spent by the Government in advertising, the similar expenditure in Government advertising in 1938; and what economies are now proposed.]
LORD AMMON: My Lords, the reply to the first and second parts of the question involves tables of figures, and I have arranged for this information to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT. In reply to the last part of the question, I can assure the noble Lord that His Majesty's Government are alive to the need for economy in the Government's Information Services. No particular deductions are now proposed, because the expenditure is frequently reviewed, and is kept as small as is consistent with their duties.
Following are the tables referred to:
COST OF INFORMATION STAFFS IN HOME DEPARTMENTS 1938 AND 1947.

1938

1947

£97,000

£415,000

NOTES:
1. These figures include the cost of subordinate clerical and typing staff employed in Department Information Divisions.
2. The 1947 figures do not include Central Office of Information staff. The Central Office is not concerned with public relations work like that of other Departments, but is primarily an agency providing expert technical facilities.
3. The above figures do not include the cost of the information staffs of the Oversea Departments, since only a small proportion of their work is directed to this country. The cost of home-based information staffs in the Oversea Departments attributable to publicity at home in 1947 is estimated to have been £30,624. It is not possible to calculate a comparable figure for 1938.
ESTIMATED COSTS OF PRESS AND POSTER ADVERTISING BY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS DURING 1938 AND 1947.

£ thousands

1938

1947

1.

Central Office of Information (including repayment services)

—

1,675

2.

His Majesty's Stationery Office (costs of paper and printing for posters, and expenses of arranging classified advertising)

29

100

3.

National Savings Committee

23

530

4.

Ministry of Food

—

338

5.

Other Departmental advertising (including classified Press insertions)

205

305

Total (£ thousands)

257

2,948

NOTES:
1. All the above figures include a percentage allowance for staff costs.
2. The figures exclude expenditure on oversea advertising by the oversea Departments and by the Central Office of Information.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: My Lords, may I ask the Government to consider the organisation of a central body which could deal with individuals seeking the assistance of the Government in any particular matter, so that they can be referred by this central body to the appropriate Government Department, instead of having to seek round the large number of Departments for information? May I also ask whether steps could not be taken for

61
all Government advertising to be done through a central Department, instead of it being left, as it is now, in the hands of each Department to advertise something in which they are particularly interested? Such a step would, incidentally, relieve the departmental annoyance which is caused by Certain Government advertising. The posters which we see throughout London showing mill chimneys vomiting forth dense quantities of smoke, for example, are contrary to all that the Ministry of Health, and also the Ministry of Fuel, have urged upon employers.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, I will see that the noble Lord's two suggestions are brought before the proper quarters.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
BOROUGH OF SWINTON AND PENDLEBUKY ORDER;
URBAN DISTRICT OF EAST DEREHAM ORDER.
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending Section one of the Act to the said areas, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

TERRITORIAL ARMY PROBLEMS.
2.44 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT LORD MANCROFT rose to call attention to the problems connected with the Army and especially with the Territorial Army; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. It is the best part of a year since we last debated the Army, and since then we have debated the Defence White Paper, and the Army Estimates have been debated in another place. My noble friends and I, therefore, thought your Lordships might like the opportunity to examine what progress has been made in the course of the last year, and to see what were the outstanding problems still facing the Army. Before I begin my speech, I should like, if I may, to express on your
62
Lordships' behalf our regret that the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, is unable to be present to-day to reply to this debate and to send him our best wishes for a complete recovery.
I should like to begin by discussing the general situation as revealed in the Army Estimates. During the current year we shall have an Army of something like 600,000 men and women. That does not include Colonial Forces, but it does include the Territorial Army. Those 600,000 men and women, who can ill be spared from the factories and from the fields, are maintained in the Army at a cost to the taxpayer of something in the neighbourhood of £300,000,000, which the tax-paper can ill afford. In plain figures that means that every soldier is costing the taxpayer £500 a year, and I think, therefore, that the taxpayer is entitled to ask whether he is getting value for his money. With regard to the Army, how can we best see what the standard of value is? I think there must be one outstanding question to be asked at once—namely, what would be the position if mobilisation were ordered to-morrow? That, in my opinion is the test. What can we produce in the way of battle-worthy formations? What shall we be able to produce in the way of battle-worthy formations in, let us say, five years' time?
There appeared in the New Statesman some weeks ago an authoritative article which suggested that our striking force at the moment was no bigger than the equivalent of about three divisions. That statement is probably right, but the picture that it suggests is not an entirely accurate one, for the same reason that the statement that the Home Fleet consisted of one cruiser and four destroyers, although factually correct, did not give the whole picture. But whether it is correct or not, one thing is certain: the main burden of finding this force, whatever size it may be, and whatever size the Government have decided upon, must fall upon the Regular Army. I think, therefore, that your Lordships might like to consider exactly what are the tasks facing the Regular Army to-day. They are very heavy.
The Regular Army has four main tasks at the moment—bigger tasks than it has ever before had in peace time. First, it has to train the Territorial Army. To do that it has to lend the Territorial

63
Army a large number of instructors of high calibre. To do the Regular Army all credit, it is certainly producing these instructors, and is not fobbing the Territorial Army off with second-class men. Secondly, the Army has to carry out garrison duties in Germany and in Austria, and still has, where necessary, to garrison various outposts in the Empire. The commitment in India has now lapsed, but there remains a problematical commitment in Palestine. Thirdly, the Army has to train its own men. Lastly, it has to train the National Service man; and here, my Lords, we are coming up against one of the major difficulties caused by the reduction of the period of national service from eighteen months to twelve months.
The Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force have both decided that they are unable to train their conscripts to the requisite technical standards in a year, and therefore, so far as possible, they are to rely on voluntary recruitment to obtain their men. Consequently, more and more men are going to be thrown off into the Army. Is the Army strong enough to train those extra men? Two reductions have already been made, and I think there have been two deferments of call-up. Nevertheless, we shall be faced with something like 140,000 men a year to be trained in the Army by 1949–50. How big, therefore, is the Regular Army and can it do that job? At the moment, the size of the Regular Army is about 170,000, and recruiting during the last year has been no more than what may be called "fair." The situation is given in paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Memorandum accompanying the Army Estimates, which reads as follows:
" In 1947, 28,000 volunteers were enlisted on normal engagements. This figure is slightly higher than that achieved in any year immediately prior to the war, except in 1938 when conditions were abnormal. In addition to men on normal engagements, some 13,000 men with previous service and experience have enlisted on a Short Service Engagement."
That gives, I feel, an over-optimistic picture, for this reason: Before the war (let us say in 1937), the task of those recruiting for the Army was merely to maintain the Army at a certain specified size. But we are now trying to build up the Army to a target figure of 220,000, and therefore, in my opinion, this is not a fair parallel.
We have to find something like 50,000 recruits before the Regular Army is brought up to the, establishment which the Government have laid down. That is our first task. We have on several occasions in this House debated recruiting, and the problems attending upon it, and therefore I will not weary your Lordships again with details, which are well known. I would like, however, to reiterate what I consider to be the three principal stumbling blocks to Regular recruiting at the moment. The first is the fear in the minds of potential recruits that they will not be able to get a worth-while job, at a worthwhile wage, when they leave the Army. That is a very real fear and, at the moment, it has not been allayed. The next problem is the difficulty of accommodation, particularly in regard to married quarters. Thirdly, there is the question of pay. It is no use saying that wages must not go up, that pay must not be increased. That we know. But the fact remains that the pay of the Army is now about 15 per cent. lower, even after taking into consideration the increases introduced about two years ago, than pay in civilian life. The soldier knows that, and he feels that if the taxpayers are entitled to ask of the Army whether they are getting value for money, then he is equally entitled to say that he is not being given enough money for his value.
A further hazard has been introduced by the Budget—and this particularly applies to officers. It was brought to my notice by a brother officer who has recently been given the honour of commanding his regiment. That honour carried with it a welcome increase in pay. My brother officer's father, misguidedly as it now appears, managed to scrape and save in order to set his son up in life with a little capital. This sum, when added to his increase of pay, makes him liable to the capital levy, and therefore his promotion has cost him £400. With a cynicism which I am certain noble Lords opposite will deplore he says he feels that he has reason to suspect that that sum may be £400 a year. He considers that this is too high a price to pay for command, even by the old standards which prevailed before the Duke of Wellington's day. I have, however, taken the liberty of advising him against resigning his commission, on the ground that as an ex-Regular officer he will have extreme difficulty in finding employment

65
in civilian life, and that if he does not he will most likely be susceptible to the Control of Engagement Order. The Ministry of Labour will probably adopt the age-old device, to which British authorities have so often had recourse when faced with a man who has disgraced himself, and send him into the Army.
The problems of the size of the task facing the Regular Army throw into relief the burdens of the Territorial Army, and its ability to help the Regular Army in its task. I think it most important that we should bear in mind in future that we have not now, as we had before the war, two Armies, a Regular Army and a Territorial Army. We have just one Army. I would like now, if I may, to refer to the statement in the Army Estimates on Page 31 concerning the role of the Territorial Army. The statement says:
" The Territorial Army is being organised to carry out two rôles in war:

" (a) to provide from the outset a large proportion of the ground defence of the United Kingdom against air attack; and

" (b) to provide a second line for the Active Army and a basis on which the Army can expand."

In my view that contains a contradiction in terms. For the Ack-Ack force a certain state of readiness, a very high state of readiness, must clearly obtain. We cannot have in the Territorial Army a second line for the active Army, a force that is in some state of readiness, and at the same time provide a force for expanding. The Territorial Army cannot throw off a cadre like the Regular Army. Therefore, either we must have a certain state of readiness or we must be prepared to throw off a cadre to produce further Reserves. We cannot have both. We have got to raise six infantry divisions, two armoured divisions, one airborne division, plus corps and other troops, plus sixty-two Ack-Ack regiments.
To do this we have first to raise a voluntary cadre upon which the conscripts can build and expand when they start to enter in 1950, so that by 1956, when the first full-term conscript's service of five years is up, the Territorial Army will be in the neighbourhood of 750,000 strong. I hope someone is beginning to think of the problems which face the country (and which never faced the country before)—problems of mobilising, moving and equipping a force of that size. How do we stand for volunteers
66
at the present time? Very badly. The recruiting campaign for the Territorial Army began about a year ago. In the year which is past we have met with disappointing results. We have recruited only something like 45,000 men and women; and yet last Saturday 46,000 people turned out to watch Newcastle United draw one-all with Cardiff City. And I need not remind your Lordships that neither of those two teams is even in the First Division. Particularly is this figure reflected in the Ack-Ack situation, where only 13,000 recruits have so far been obtained towards an establishment of something like 192,000.
This is the question which I would like to ask His Majesty's Government: What Ack-Ack standard do they envisage? And what is to be the standard of this force to which they must give the task of defending this country to-day, to-morrow or in ten years' time? Do they think that under modern conditions the Territorial Army can, or ever will be able to, carry out that task to the standard which this country requires? The technicalities of Ack-Ack have increased greatly during the war. Apart from high technical qualifications, the regiments have to establish liaison with the R.A.F. and with the civilian populations. Are the Government giving sufficient priority to the Ack-Ack in the matter of training equipment and other facilities? That appears to me to be the primary rôle of the Territorial Army at the moment, and the position with regard to it is one which no one can view with equanimity. As with the Regular Army so with the Territorial Army the problem is to increase recruiting. We have debate I this matter in your Lordships' House before, and I will not worry your Lordships now with minor details, or weary you with all the silly little niggling pinpricks from the Treasury concerning pay allowances, petrol and other matters, small in themselves but which infuriate the Territorial Army.
I must, however, mention the confusion which exists over holidays with pay. I understand that the Government are about to launch a publicity campaign for the Territorial Army. It will be very welcome. I am also pleased to hear that the Lord Mayor's Show this year is to be given over to the Auxiliary Forces. It is all really a question of cash. Publicity costs money. I listened with interest to

67
the question on publicity which was put earlier by my noble friend Lord Broughshane. I notice that all the tube stations of London Transport—an organisation which has ho competition and has to face no rival for prospective travellers' custom—have come out with another lavish rash of posters including a fatuous one encouraging your Lordships to "Get home safe and sound." What is the good of spending money in this way on London Transport, when we have no other alternative organisation for travel? Can we have a little less money spent on encouraging us to get into buses and tubes which are already overcrowded and more spent on encouraging people to get into the Territorial Army, which is almost empty? At the present moment too much work for recruiting is being thrown on the shoulders of commanding officers and not enough work is being done by the Government. They pay lip service only to the Territorial Army.
The trouble with the Territorial Army is that so few people know that it exists. Several armies during the war claimed the credit of being a "forgotten army." The Territorial Army, at any rate, can never be forgotten because one cannot forget something which one did not know ever existed. Therefore I call upon the Government to give a more vigorous lead. The War Office are doing their best. The War Office, however, are not able to do everything that is required. The Government must come out and give the country a lead. Can they also pass the word along to the Trades Union Congress? I am not for a moment saying anything against the Trades Union Congress; they have given great help to us in the last year. I do not believe there is an Association in the country which has not its trade union representatives—and most valuable work they have done. But we want still more from the trade unions; we want help not only from the leaders at the top, but we want it down in the workshops. I am given to understand that if every factory in the Birmingham area were to allow 5 per cent. of its workpeople to join the Territorial Army, the Territorial Army units for the Birmingham area would be filled to 100 per cent. of establishment. The reason why, in my view, this is so necessary is that I foresee a danger that when 1950 comes (and that is in only a year and a half's time) the Territorial
68
Army—that is the voluntary cadre—may be collapsing from inertia. It is very difficult to train and maintain the enthusiasm of a regiment which has an establishment of 840 but actually numbers only 40 men. Therefore I feel that all possible efforts should be made to bring the voluntary cadre up to whatever the Government have decided should be its strength.
Now I would like to ask this question. Even granted the best circumstances, even if we do get all the volunteers, and the conscripts on top of them, do the Government really think we can attain the necessary standard of technical proficiency required nowadays by armoured formations and airborne formations? I do not know, because I did not serve in an armoured formation or airborne formation myself, but I very much doubt whether the required standard of technical skill can be obtained in anything under six months after mobilisation. What have we behind the Regular Army and the Territorial Army? I see from the Estimates this year that the Supplementary Reserve is again to be revived. That is good, but it is only a drop in the ocean. Since the end of the war something like 2,500,000 battle-trained men have been demobilised. What use are we making of them? None. Why cannot that body of potential reserve for the Army be got together and organised in some way, even if only on paper?
The potential Army Reservist is at a disadvantage compared with the sailors. They have the Navy League and the magazine Navy, which are fulfilling an admirable purpose. We have nothing like that in the Army. There is no single journal or paper to keep up to date the Reservist who wants to keep himself informed and in touch with modern developments. The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, has mentioned that matter on more than one occasion and I would like to reinforce his argument. There is, of course, the Army Quarterly Review, but this is expensive and difficult to come by, and it is, frankly, a little on the highbrow side. There are also regimental journals but they are a little too parochial. There is an admirable paper Soldier which is published in Germany and which many of your Lordships may not have seen, but for some technical reason it cannot be sold in this country. I would suggest that that paper should be encouraged to develop in such a way as

69
to fulfil not only the wants of the serving soldier but also those of the man who has left Army and wants to keep in touch. What has happened to the Home Guard? Are we keeping any skeleton organisation, even on paper, or has it been lost in the dungeons of the War Office, never to reveal itself again? I would suggest also much greater co-operation between the Territorial Army and the cadets, so that cadets when they are called up know some Territorial regiment well, and are happy to come back and rejoin the regiment once they are through with their conscript service.
I commend to the Government the miniature rifle clubs in which many of your Lordships, like myself, are interested. In Switzerland, every man under the age of forty is compelled to belong to some rifle club. In this country, too, these clubs are doing invaluable work, not only socially—and they are of great social importance—but also technically. They are going through difficult times now, particularly with regard to ammunition and accommodation. I feel we have a large untapped reserve from which we could get much more. It is depressing to have to talk about these things three years after the conclusion of a victorious war, but it is no good shutting one's eyes to the truth. It is no good being sentimental and letting one's heart rule one's head. The situation is not the same as it was three years after the First Great War. We are faced with greater risks than we were then. We shall certainly not be able to count on ten years' peace, nor shall we be able to count on a six months' respite to prepare ourselves if there should be a war. There is a further difficulty which we tend to forget. We no longer have the Indian Army by our side.
Critics may say that I am being unrealistic. "What is the good," they may say, "of talking about A.A. regiments, and 40 mm. guns when we are faced with atomic bombs and all the horrors of bacteriological warfare?" That is true, perhaps, but to sit down and do nothing, not knowing the answer to these problems, is much more dangerous. Somebody must think out the answer, but until he does we must do the best we can with what resources we have. Nor is it any good saying that Russia does not want war. Of course she does not. Russia is getting everything she wants without a
70
war. We have to make certain that the Army has the power to hurt, if it should be required, and that that power is known. The Government should therefore be giving their attention to the problem of building up the minimum striking force we require. Of course the Government have difficulties. Any Government after a war would experience such difficulties. But it is largely a matter of priority. It is no good introducing vast social reforms if the benefits are all to be lost through our inability to protect our-selves. We are confusing quantity with quality in the Army We must have both. We must have the quality of the volunteer, and the quantity which conscription gives. Many of us regretted conscription at the time, because we felt it would kill the volunteer spirit, but it will not if we can do one thing—inject into the conscript element the volunteer spirit which means so much.
The chief requirements, as I see it, are as follows: An increased volunteer element for the Territorial and Regular Armies, backed up by an adequate number of trained and semi-trained Reserves. I have also suggested various other problems and ventured to put forward one or two solutions which occur to me. These problems are tangible, but there is one which I regard perhaps as intangible. The Army to-day is too drab. The Navy and the Air Force have always had what I may call for want of a better word the "glamour" of the three Services. Cannot we have a little bit of the panoply of soldiering back-again? Remember the intense pleasure felt throughout the country when the Household Cavalry went back to full dress for H.R.H. Princess Elizabeth's wedding. Why cannot the Brigade of Guards go back into full dress? It might cost a lot, but it would be worth it every time and would pay dividends to morale a hundred times over. It is so easy to mock at regimental tradition. It is so easy to laugh at esprit de corps. It is so easy to knock down something intangible that is so difficult to build up again.
I appeal to the Government not to be petty-minded over what may to them be small things but what I think are big things. I put forward these criticisms in a friendly spirit and, I hope, in no way biased by any political point of view. I have not levelled any serious criticism of the Government's policy; I have only offered some small points of criticism of

71
that policy and have suggested one or two possible remedies. But I do level strong criticism at the Government for failing to give the Army the lead it deserves. They have stated their policy, and with that policy I am not differing in any major degree. Let them back that policy more vehemently. Let them come out more whole-heartedly for the Army. If they do that and give the Army the lead which it requires and to which it will respond, they will earn the gratitude not only of your Lordships' House but of the whole country. I beg to move for Papers.
3.9 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, the recent debate on the Defence White Paper gave those of us who had the privilege of taking part the opportunity of discussing the problem on broad lines and I think we kept to our task in so doing. But it is all the more important that we should have an occasion such as to-day's debate provides for discussing Army matters in greater detail. I venture at the outset to express the hope that the noble Earl who is to reply for the Government will do so with some measure of precision and expansiveness. In so many of the debates on Service questions which we have recently conducted we have have remarkably little information from the Government side. Those who have replied on those occasions seem to have adopted too closely the model of Old Man River:
" He must know somethin'
But don't say nuthin';
He just keeps rollin' along."
Although, of course, we are conscious that there are many questions which are protected from public discussion by considerations of security, we can at least hope that that label of "security" will not be used to cover matters which it may be inconvenient, from the departmental view, to discuss in public, but for which the plea of national interest cannot be properly advanced. It is so easy to put a rubber stamp on a file with "Secret" or "Top secret" upon it, and from that moment to say: "This is not a subject upon which any information is to be given outside the walls of the Department." But it is very important that a wise discretion should be used in the application of those rubber stamps. I mean no disrespect to the
72
noble Earl who, because of the excessive juvenility of his colleague, Lord Pakenham (who was to have been the Government spokesman) is to reply, or to the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, if I say that, in view of the immense weight of knowledge on military subjects (which I wholly disclaim for myself) that exists in this House, it is a matter of regret that there is no representative of the War Office amongst Ministers in your Lordships' House.
I propose to-day, particularly in the presence of so many Field-Marshals, to confine myself strictly to the Territorial Army. I would say in advance, before your Lordships discover it for yourselves, that I am going to be rather detailed and very dull. Much has happened since the pre-1914–18 war days. Many of your Lordships will remember that in those times the Territorial Force engagement was purely one for home defence. Not many weeks of that war had passed before practically the whole of the existing Force voluntarily released themselves from that restriction and accepted the obligation of general service. As that war went on, their reward came in seeing the Territorial Army steadily submerged by the growing numbers of Service battalions. In the intervals between the wars the Territorial obligation was an unlimited one for general service, and in the late war they had their recognition in seeing their identity almost completely lost. Now they have to adjust their minds and their activities to the reception of the National Service personnel in their capacity as Reservists, on their release from their year's training.
The predominant characteristic of the Territorial Army in the past has been its voluntary service. Now it is to be in the main supported by involuntary contributions and, whatever form it may adopt in the future—and no one can foresee that with any clarity—it is bound largely to have lost that stimulus of voluntary effort which has been throughout all its previous history alike its privilege and its pride. The Territorial Army under the new dispensation is to be, so to speak, the concrete bed upon which is to be erected the machinery for the expansion of an Army in time of emergency. With that, and with all the other duties that are laid upon it, there never was a time in its history when it more

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eminently merited to be cherished, and to have its still uphill and stony path so far as possible smoothed before it, for at the moment there are confronting it immense difficulties and immense discouragements.
I say "discouragements." Let me give one example of what I have in mind. I happen to know something of one London Territorial unit of ancient history and a gallant record of service, which offered—indeed, asked permission—to produce a small party of an officer and something like a dozen other ranks to assist in lining the route (which runs very close to their headquarters) on the forthcoming occasion of their Majesty's ceremonial drive to St. Paul's on the occasion of their Silver Wedding. That offer was refused. The unit was told that it had no right to take part in a ceremony of that kind. Who is talking of rights? Here are these men, ready and anxious to display their loyalty by taking their place in a great ceremony and, more than that, by doing honour to their own regiment and by displaying the presence of that regiment on that occasion, to make, possibly, some contribution to the sorely needed flow of recruits for the Territorial Army. This kind of senseless refusal is the only "encouragement" given to the Territorial unit: "Keep your place. Keep out of the way. As mere week-end evening soldiers, don't go butting into what is a high-grade ceremony." Not by that kind of "encouragement" will you fill the ranks of your Territorial Army.
I pass from discouragement to difficulty. Those of your Lordships who have had experience of the Territorial Army will, I think, agree that the two essentials to a Territorial unit are a good headquarters and a good headquarters' staff. By "a good headquarters" I mean a suitable and convenient building, not derelict, dilapidated or requisitioned by some Government Department, in which training can be properly carried on, and in which at the same time the social activities of the unit may be developed. It is of immense importance that the head-quarters of a Territorial unit shall be not only a drill hall but a club as well, and a club offering amenities not only to the men but to the men's wives and sweethearts, so that their women-folk will not think that if their men join the Territorial Army they will be disappearing into some
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closed and hostile element from which wives and sweethearts are cut off, but will feel that their own participation in the activities of the unit is both welcomed and encouraged. That kind of activity cannot be carried on in the restricted space or, indeed, the almost non-existent space which is available for many struggling Territorial units at the present moment.
The complexity of modern training, the number of weapons that have to be mastered, the number of subjects that have to be studied, in themselves aid enormously to the difficulties of training. Remember, too, that the Territorial soldier is at best only a part-time soldier, and that men training on one evening will all have reached different stages of training. The only way any order of progress can be achieved is by breaking the men up into small squads at a parallel standard of training, and introducing them to the subject in that way. But for that purpose you must have room, and I know of one headquarters, not ill-equipped by pre-war standards, which is now almost at bursting point from the training angle, although it is only at 10 per cent. of its established strength.
That problem occurs in headquarters all over the country. Many headquarters are derelict and dilapidated. Every aid and encouragement ought to be given to set those headquarters into a proper state of repair, so that they are attractive to those who use them. I gave the noble Earl, or his temporary predecessor, notice that I was going to ask one more question. It was the case not long ago that there were a number of headquarters still subject to requisition and not available for use at all by the units to which they rightly belonged. I would like to know whether that state of affairs still obtains; if so, in how many cases, and if in any cases, when it is proposed to put an end to such hampering conditions?
Another matter concerning headquarters is of great importance, especially to armoured units, and that is the question of garage and parking space for vehicles, particularly in towns and cities. I believe that in the modern drill book there is no official command to make much of your tanks, bren-carriers or armoured cars, but at the same time it is essential that if a man is to be a competent trained soldier, he should be on terms of familiarity with the vehicle

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which he is going to control. If that is to be achieved, then it must mean that the vehicles are not only readily available but equally readily accessible. It is no good depending upon the good will of some obliging Regular unit to lend vehicles for week-end exercises. The vehicles must be there, and the men must have opportunity for access to them. But that cannot be done unless there is some space available where those vehicles can be kept in reasonable proximity to the headquarters, and those arrangements, certainly in London, are almost entirely lacking.
As regards headquarters staff, the second essential, it is of the greatest importance that the Regular Army should be encouraged to maintain the standard which the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, rightly acknowledged they have hitherto set, of sending their best men. But there is an element of discontent amongst them, and it is based very largely, as one would expect, upon the great shortage of married quarters available for their use. I know that that is not a problem peculiar to the Territorial Army. We had some reflection of it recently in a debate initiated by the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Trenchard, in regard to the Police Force, and no doubt the same obtains in regard to the Regular Army. You will not get your best men from the Regular Army to volunteer to carry out the essential work of training the Territorials unless you provide them with suitable accommodation. When this point is raised we are always told of the immense difficulties. Let us for a moment put the difficulties aside and see whether something cannot be done, instead of talking about difficulties that exist. I do not think that it is the War Office who are obstructing; it is the perpetually limiting, cramping hand of the Treasury, descending upon not merely the administration but the policy of other Departments. This problem has to be surmounted, and efforts must be made to find and make habitable proper accommodation. It is no good just finding a man a place and putting in a few articles of what, on a broad interpretation, might be regarded as furniture. You have to give him somewhere where he will be content to live.
Another problem which arises is the greater expense that a man incurs in
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having to live in London, and the inadequacy of what is called the "London allowance" to cover the extra cost which he finds falls upon him owing to his transfer to London. The military personnel of a headquarters are not the end of the story. There is, owing to the shortage of military personnel, a considerable element of civilian employees as well. They are in an unsatisfactory situation as regards their pay. Take a man who is what is called a Grade 2 clerk at a Territorial headquarters, whose grade is equivalent to Warrant Officer Class II in the Service. A Warrant Officer Class II, taking into account his ration allowance and so forth, gets a wage of approximately £8 1s. 8d. a week, and when he goes back to his unit there is promotion open to him to Warrant Officer Class I, and so on. His civilian counterpart has no opportunity of promotion because there is no clerk Grade I in the Territorial Army, and even after four years' service he can never rise above £6 6s. od. a week, as compared with the military rate of pay of £8 1s. 8d. When men are doing comparable duties, perhaps in the same headquarters, one a soldier receiving £8 1s. 8d. and one a civilian receiving £6 6s. od., it cannot be expected that the civilian will do his best work on those terms.
Those are the points I desire to make on the Territorial aspect. They are in themselves perhaps minor points, but they build up with one another into something rather formidable in the way of obstructing a whole movement from proceeding along the path required. I wanted to raise one other point on that matter. The Territorial Army, since its re-formation a little while ago, has been fortunate in having the services of a number of experienced Regular officers, seconded to command Territorial units. On what terms, as regards length of command, are those officers transferred? My information is that they are only seconded for a year, which may be extended in certain circumstances to eighteen months. That is, I suggest, quite inadequate, particularly when this is the moment at which the Force is being re-formed. You must at that moment have continuity of command, so that the same person has the opportunity and the responsibility of making arrangements for the intake of the large numbers of National Service men at the beginning of 1950—and not

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only for making preliminary arrangements but for seeing that the arrangements work in practice when the time comes. I hope that even if it involves some sacrifice on the part of Regular units they will see the great advantage to the Territorial Army of extending those periods of command so as to give real continuity, and that the War Office will reconsider what I understand to be the limitation at present imposed.
I have asked one question before, but I cannot say that I received much more in reply than a synthetic dose of soothing syrup. It concerned the prospects of Territorial Army officers' receiving training for Staff employment in the event of general mobilisation. I should like to know from the noble Earl whether any arrangements have been made, or are contemplated, to give that Staff training to officers of a kind who, I think, in the late war and in the previous war showed themselves not ill-suited for the discharge of the duties of the Staff.
May I finally turn to one matter on which your Lordships will perhaps allow me to speak very briefly, having had it as my personal preoccupation during most of the last war? That is the provision of a military labour force. When the last war began, there was no provision at all for the supply of labour to the Army; and what was done was to collect the Reservists on their way to join their units, and thrust them into improvised units. Of course the time came when they were required back by their units; and after that, such was the shortage of the labour force, that Lord Gort was obliged to divert three whole divisions in France from their proper military training and employ them on labour duties. There were not so many divisions in being at that time that we could easily spare those three divisions for that type of duty. That was during the period of the war when what was known by the singularly inept and clumsy title of the "Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps" was coming into being. I do not propose to follow out the history of that Corps, but I would like to ask two questions upon it—pausing only to say that it is now the Royal Pioneer Corps. I do not know many corps which at the end of their first war have graduated to the position of receiving the prefix "Royal." It indicates, perhaps, that they did some not un-useful work; and they may be
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called upon to do more work of the same type in possible future contingencies.
The questions I want to ask are these. First, is it proposed to keep the Royal Pioneer Corps in being as part of the Regular Army? Secondly, is it proposed to extend it on a Territorial basis? I believe that it could most usefully be extended upon those lines. I think there are a number of men who are too old for the normal Territorial engagement, perhaps unfit for the normal Territorial engagement, perhaps even rejected on physical grounds for National Service, who at the same time would be ready and willing to volunteer for the Territorial engagement on the more limited basis of training and engagement which would be sufficient for service in the Pioneer Corps. In that way there would not, perhaps, be a large number of companies, but it might at least provide what was wholly non-existent before—the nucleus of a force which could rapidly be expanded in the event of hostilities breaking out again. The Territorial Army is capable of being a great force, but it must not be forgotten that it is now in its third childhood in the forty years of its existence. I beg the Government to bear that fact in mind, and neither to break its spirit nor overtax its strength by attempting to lay upon it, before it has the strength to bear them, burdens which it is not yet qualified to sustain.
3.35 p.m.
LORD WILSON: My Lords, I ask your indulgence on this the first occasion on which I have addressed your Lordships' House, when I speak on the important subject of the Territorial Army. In the course of my service I have had little to do with the organisation and administration of the Territorial Army at home, but I can speak of the manner in which they fought in battle; and I am sure that that is deserving of the highest recognition by the people of this country. During the last year, since I returned from service overseas, I have come to sense very strongly that the magnitude of the task which the Territorial Army is being asked to undertake in the pattern of National Defence is not fully realised by this country. As the noble Lord who spoke first said, it will have to provide in future the nucleus of armoured and other divisions for anti-aircraft and coast defence and for the training of the National Service

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Reservists. Your Lordships are fully aware of the changing tempo of war to-day, as compared with that of a few years ago. The necessity for training has to be stepped up to keep pace with this tempo. As late as the end of 1942 I myself encountered in the Territorial Army overseas units which had failed to appreciate either that change or the necessity for it. I am sure your Lordships will agree that the future must be faced with-a determination that there shall be no stepping back to out-of-date conceptions of what is required: otherwise the Territorial Army will beget the name that it is not a "live show"—and that is at all costs to be avoided.
War to-day calls for a very high standard of training and professional knowledge, combined with technical efficiency. For instance, an officer has to be proficient in using radio before he can command men in the field; and the infantry soldier now has to be instructed in subjects which in the past appertained to technical services. Equipment nowadays has to keep pace with scientific developments, and its users have to be trained to keep in step. I suggest that there are two requisites for the Territorial Army to build itself up to carry out its tasks: time and money. Time was the one thing that Napoleon requested his marshals not to ask of him. The time that I refer to is the time to train, all ranks sparing the maximum amount from civil employment. In an all-out drive for production the time that can be devoted to reaching a high standard of training in the Territorial Army calls for delicate adjustment and co-operation between all concerned—employers, workers and the Government. It is a matter of national urgency that the Territorial Army should be strong enough to fulfil its rôle efficiently, and it is impossible to train with empty cadres.
Referring to money, the financial situation of the country in relation to appropriations for defence has been explained in another place, but it is a pleasure to know that instructions are on the way for extra buildings to be made available for Territorial training and accommodation. One expresses the hope that what is to be allowed will be adequate for the purpose, and that the locations selected for training will save
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the time of the citizen-soldier travelling to and from his place of instruction. In the case of national emergency, it is the intention that the Territorial Army should be called upon to expand. To do so, Reserve officers and other ranks would have to be called upon in great numbers. Therefore, they must be kept up to date in weapons and tactical handling. This calls for the maintenance of schools of instruction of a high order. The success of the huge expansion of the United States Army during the Second World War was largely due to the excellent standards of its schools during peace.
May I now say a word about the Army Cadet Force? It is nearly a year since in another place the Minister of Defence pledged full Government support to the pre-Service cadets. This has been well reflected in the recent Army Estimates in the material benefits allocated to the Army Cadet Force. I am told that it is a new departure for anyone in this House not to register a complaint that the financial provisions are inadequate. To-day, I am not registering that complaint. I would, however, ask your Lordships to consider the importance of the cadet movement in our national life. The cadet of to-day is the Territorial soldier of the morrow, and by his training in that Force he is given a stepping-stone to leadership. What is required to-day is not more money but some assurance that the present scale of provision will be continued in future years and will be accepted as part of our national policy: in other words, a guarantee of continuity. Those who give their time and work to the raising and care of cadet units should be relieved of the fear that the results of their efforts may crash suddenly through lack of funds. The need this year is support generally throughout the nation, combined with the elimination of a pernicious but prevailing idea that the cadets are the private property of the Service Departments and are not sponsored by the Government as a whole.
It is not easy to find men of the right type, who have a real gift for leading boys and who can find time to devote to that task, and induce them to come forward. It would be a great help if they could be made to feel that their work would be Government-sponsored and that the granting of facilities for military duty would be looked upon favourably

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by their superiors, whether they be in Government or in civil employment. It would be wrong for me not to record that there has recently been an improvement in this respect, but it would be equally wrong for me not to state that there are still parts of this country, and certain local education authorities, which are not merely indifferent in their attitude towards pre-Service organisations but are actually discouraging them. Thus one finds a situation in which certain bodies, notwithstanding that they are deriving large subsidies from the Exchequer, are running counter to the Government's declared policy when one would have thought that they ought to be encouraging it. I am sure your Lordships will agree that this matter needs attention. I hope that the noble Earl who is to reply will make a point of taking up the matter with his colleagues.
3.46 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, I am quite certain that I shall be voicing the views of every member of your Lordship's House when I congratulate the noble Lord who has just sat down on his excellent maiden speech. One of the advantages that we have in this House is that from time to time there are added to our numbers those who have had most distinguished careers in one of the three fighting Services. They are always welcome here; and they are particularly welcome when they talk on the subject which they have made their life's work. I think we can assure the noble Lord who has just sat down that he is certainly no exception to that rule. We hope we shall often hear him again.
I do not want to occupy the time of the House for long this afternoon, but I do wish to say a few words about the Territorial Army. My justification for doing so, if I need any, is that I served for twenty-four years in that Army myself, and have ever since been and still am a member of the Territorial Association. For those of us who helped to re-form the Territorial Army just after the First World War, the slowness with which it is being re-formed now, as compared with what happened in those days, is rather distressing. For example, take the battery that I had the honour of forming afresh in 1919. Within three years from the end of the First World War, our establishment of both officers and other ranks was complete.
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That battery to-day has a meagre 4 or 5 per cent. of its establishment, with-out taking any account, of course, of the National Service men who are to be added in due course. It is no good conceding from ourselves the fact that, at the present rate of progress, the Territorial Army will not be in a fit condition to train the National Service men when they come to join its ranks in January, 1950.
I quite agree with the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, who said that you cannot properly train with insufficient personnel. At present, we cannot get proper gun-teams for anti-aircraft work, for coast defence work or for any other work that will be wanted immediately on the outbreak of war. Nor at the present time do we look like being able to form an airborne division or a tank and armoured division in the Territorial Army. Why is this so? It seems to me it is because, first of all, there is a prevalent view in the country that "If the Government want us to do something, they will tell us to do it. They told us when they wanted us to join up for military service. Indeed, they have the Control of Engagement Order, which is not much used, but there it is, and if they want a man to do something they will just order him to do it. So why should we do anything until we are told?" That view is prevalent amongst a large number of people in this country. There is also the view of the men who are chiefly wanted back—those who became efficient non-commissioned officers. This remark of course applies to officers as well, but I have mainly in mind the non-commissioned officers of the war years. Those men often ask, "Why should not the young men do their bit. Why should we come back to do ours again?"
Before the last war we relied largely on the spirit of voluntary service, and we are still trying to recruit the Territorial Army on that basis. I would like to draw attention to an extraordinary thing. The other day the Local Government Bill passed through your Lordships' House, and we were very concerned with one clause which allowed the payment of out-of-pocket expenses to councillors attending meetings. We certainly had some considerable discussion about it, but both Houses of Parliament passed that provision, so that a man serving as a local councillor should not be out of pocket by

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reason of his service. But in every case when a Territorial soldier goes to camp he is out of pocket unless his employer makes up the difference. We must face that situation.
Unfortunately the times are not what they once were, when everybody appreciated a voluntary service. I have often been horrified by Professor Joad's views, and I was rather horrified again when speaking in "Friday Forum" in a discussion on giving voluntary service, he said: "In this age we have surely done with all that snobbery." If that is the kind of spirit or sentiment that is going forth on the radio and in other ways, we shall not get people to give voluntary service and we shall certainly have to pay them more, because we cannot expect employers, especially those in small businesses, to allow a fortnight a year to their men and make up their pay during the time they are in camp, in addition to paying full wages for a fortnight's holiday. There are few businesses that can stand paying a man what is practically full wages for a month of the year—payment both for the holidays and for the period of the camp. A third factor that is militating against the Territorial Army at the moment is undoubtedly the National Service Act. That Act takes the men at 18 years of age. If one looks at the records of almost every Territorial unit in the days before this last war, one finds that 50 per cent. of the men in the unit were of the ages of 17, 18 and 19. Now Territorial units are not allowed to take them at 17; they must wait until the men are re-drafted (when that provision becomes operative) after their military training with the Regular Forces.
Those are obviously the reasons which underlie the poor recruiting at the present time. What is to be done about it? I listened with immense delight as always, to the noble Lord who opened this debate, but I must say I do not agree with him that posters are going to do much good—certainly not the posters that we have at the moment for the Territorial Army. The only poster that I have seen asking people to join the Territorial Army is of a man doing up his boots. Everyone has to do up his boots, if he wears boots, and it is a completely ludicrous way of attracting a person to join an Army—to depict the soldier's rôle as one of doing
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up boots. I hope the artist who draws these posters for the War Office will think of some more glamorous occupation in which to depict the Territorial Army soldier than the one I have just described. But posters will not really bring in the recruits. Recruiting for the Territorial Army can be done only by those who are already in it and who are satisfied with their conditions. It is the man who is serving who will go out and bring in his pals, because he is among a good company of men and is serving with them, because they have a good drill hall in which to assemble, and because they have a good club run in conjunction with it and have the opportunity of a thoroughly good camp—I do not mean merely a holiday camp (that is not the way to attract men) but a camp in which all their time, apart from the periods they must have free, is occupied with interesting instruction.
Quite a lot is being done for the Territorial Army and it would not be right to let it pass unacknowledged. The clothing that they are receiving, in my Association at any rate, is excellent. The equipment for most units is now coming in quite well, although there is the limitation that we have not enough sheds and such places in which to store the vast amount of equipment required for a fully trained unit possessing some knowledge of its full equipment. I hope that the War Office will try and butt through those restrictions which are quite unnecessarily imposed on this country by the Ministry of Health. There are plenty of bricks in this country, and there are plenty of bricklayers. It is no good thinking that by saying that only so many may be employed in a particular trade you can change a man from being a bricklayer into a worker in some export trade. I hope we shall be allowed to build more of these places in which to keep the armoured vehicles and guns, and that we shall soon be allowed to build more married quarters, not only for the permanent staff instructors but also for men like the adjutant of a unit—the Regular officer who is posted to a neighbourhood and, unless some house is there for his occupation, nowadays has very little chance of getting a house at all.
There is one matter that I would like to mention in regard to equipment. It

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may have been put right now, but it is one of the petty little restrictions that ought never to occur. The War Office sent us down for training purposes some models of a useful new gun. It was a coast defence gun. In order that the site and the gun may work in conjunction with one another, a piece of steel called a cam, which is shaped according to the height at which the gun is to be situated, is required. These were new guns, and they came without any cams. Application was made for a drill cam to be made, the cost of which would have been, perhaps, two or three pounds—not more. The gun itself costs £9,000 or £10,000. This I am told, is what happened. The financial people at the War Office said: "We will allow you to make these cams when you tell us that you can make them for the site where the gun is eventually to go." The military people at the War Office said: "We do not know where we shall put this particular defence gun, and we shall not know for a long time." The result (though the matter may have been remedied now) was that there was this beautiful gun standing in the hall, deficient by reason of the absence of the cam, and all due to a stupid little bit of red tape in the War Office. The gun without the cam, of course, is useless for drill purposes and will remain so until someone gets over the difficulty which has arisen.
I come back once again to the position which the Government will have to face. It is a prime necessity, I believe, in order to secure recruits for the Territorial Army, that they should be given more pay than they are getting at the present moment. You cannot expect a man to do his training in camp and be five or six pounds out of pocket, so that he is left with very little money to send home to keep his wife and family. The Territorial Army, after all, is an extremely cheap Army. The position is not as it would be if these men were being paid for fifty-two weeks in the year. An immense amount of work is obtained from them by reason of their attendance at the evening drills, which is never paid for, so the one time when it is imperative to see that they are adequately paid is the time when they are in camp. I am not one who would advocate having different rates of pay for the Territorial Army and for the Regular Army. I think corresponding ranks ought to be paid the same in both. On the other hand, there is
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a handy method of helping the Territorial soldier, and that is to increase the bonus given him each year if he attends camp and is returned as an efficient soldier. So far as I know, the bonus remains as it was between the two wars, although everyone knows that the value of money is not at all the same as it was ten or more years ago. I urge upon the War Office—and I hope that the noble Earl who is to reply will draw their attention to this fact—that if it is really wished in these days to obtain a full-strength Territorial Army we shall be wasting money and putting confidence into an ill-fitted machine if it is not brought up nearby, at any rate, to full strength. I suggest that the bonus should be altered; that it should be substantially increased so that a man is not materially out of pocket as the result of serving his country in the Territorial Army.
The only other thing I wish to say is to urge upon the Government most strongly that when they start the new recruiting campaign for the Territorial Army the Government themselves should go all out to try to make the campaign a success, and should not leave it to be dealt with as just a departmental matter. Efforts should be made to get all sorts of people to assist. Everyone who can help, from the Prime Minister downwards, should be asked to lend weight and voice to the appeal which is to be made. It seems to me absolutely essential that we should have a Territorial Army fully prepared to take its place in the line—certainly for anti-aircraft work and coast defence—from the word "go," when war is declared. We can none of us maintain that that is the case at the present time. Yet it ought to be. It should be the aim and ambition of all of us to see that the deficiency which now exists is made up as soon as possible. I am certain that the Government may rely on the aid of a great number of people who do not happen to belong to their Party. Trey may rely upon these people to give them all the support possible in the new campaign to be initiated in the Autumn. There is no controversy whatever between us with regard to this. We all think the Territorial Army is a great Army, a great conception, and we want it to be brought to the peak of efficiency so that it may be adequate and ready for the very important job which the Government have entrusted to its care.
4.5 p.m.
LORD MIDDLETON: My Lords, first of all I would ask permission to join the noble Lord who has just sat down in offering my respectful felicitations to my late Chief, and also to say, as one interested in the Cadet Movement, how delighted I am to know that they have so strong a champion. This debate has covered a fairly wide field, not excluding the rather pessimistic views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, concerning the operation of the Capital Levy. Judging from the indication of dissent shown by the noble and learned Viscount who was sitting on the Woolsack, I hope that when the Finance Bill becames law, the noble Lord's brother officer will find that his Army pay and private income will not be assessed together.
I propose to occupy a few minutes to deal with certain matters connected with the Territorial Army. If I am only half so dull as the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, said he was going to be, I shall be well content. When in 1946 it became known what would be the rôle of the Territorial Army in the plan for the Army of the future, my colleagues on the East Riding of Yorkshire Association—all men of long and valuable experience in the Territorial Army—had no illusions about the magnitude of the task that confronted them. But they set to work with good will, fortified by the assurance of the Under-Secretary of State for War that "this time the Territorials would have the Government solidly behind them." Moreover, they felt strongly that the units for which they would be responsible must have an opportunity of living up to the great reputation of those units which formed a not unimportant part of the wonderful 50th Division, and that they would also be able to live up to the fine reputation so deservedly won by the Artillery and Royal Engineer units and the East Riding Yeomanry. We knew that it would be no easy task, and not made any easier by the reduction to twelve months of the period of Colour Service.
I would venture now to draw attention to the statement made by the Quarter-Master General in November, 1947, to members of the Council of the Territorial Army and Auxiliary Forces Associations. In so doing I make no personal attack on the officer who made the statement. I
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have not the slightest doubt that he and other members of the Army Council have done their best to secure for us the means of producing efficient units. But it is clear that in encounters with other Ministries concerned the War Office were defeated. That statement dealt largely with matters of work, services, accommodation, finance and problems of training. I must not take up the time of your Lordships by going into details, but I will say that that completely negative statement was staggering; and it showed a most deplorable infirmity of purpose. One of the audience described it to me afterwards as: "The wettest thing the War Office have ever produced, and most discouraging." If the Government spokesman has not a copy of that statement I have here one which I shall be pleased to let him have.
Then, again, we have found that the town planning authorities have never taken the Territorial Army into their consideration. Provision has been made, and rightly made, for libraries and recreation facilities, but the Territorial has been left out altogether. When we referred the matter locally, we were asked where we would like to have the sites. That was not difficult to answer, but when it comes to a matter of acquiring sites we are immediately up against the machinery at the War Office, which is of such a character that it is difficult, if not impossible, to bring any negotiation to a successful issue. In contrast, when local authorities have, for instance, the sacred cause of education in the field they have powers and use them; and they seem to encounter no particular difficulty. If the local authorities have these powers, why not the Army? Or have they these powers and are they reluctant to use them; or what is the difficulty? It is a platitude to remark that the world is in an uneasy state at present but there certainly seems to be very little recognition of the supreme importance of our Armed Forces. I am by no means the only member of your Lordships' House who has had personal experience, in the early days of a campaign, of leading troops partly trained and inadequately equipped. Our country has survived twice, but at awful expense in money and lives. Surely two great world wars and their vicissitudes should have taught us something.
So far as the Association of which I have the honour of being President is concerned, we may be better off than

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some, but we still have four units without any accommodation at all and two with unsatisfactory accommodation. And of those which have accommodation, two are from seven to nine miles too far away to be of real use. We lack twenty-four quarters for married members of the permanent staff, and we have no garage accommodation whatsoever; and, as noble Lords have said, that must inevitably lead to waste. I hope the noble Lord who will reply will say something about the employers of men who are Territorials. I should like to reinforce what the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, said. I am sure that a clear and satisfactory statement would do a tremendous amount to stimulate recruiting, which so far has been disappointing. Appeals have been made to employers to make concessions to their men. There are a considerable number of employers who always have played up well, and who will no doubt continue to do so in the future. But unless some concessions are given, it will be supremely difficult, especially for employers with a small number of men and for those engaged in the summer holiday trades. I recognise that there is little or no unemployment to-day, but should the situation change for the worse, it would be a bad business if the chances of a man's employment were prejudiced by his military obligations. In this connection I would point out the hardship suffered by men attending a week-end camp. As it is at present, they come home with exactly 1s. 9d. in their pockets, and surely their services are worth a little more than that.
In conclusion, I would ask the Government to state quite definitely what are their real intentions as to the future of the Territorial Army. Do they mean to carry out the scheme propounded in 1946, or is it to be scrapped? While I may not share the doubts of some, I feel bound to express the views of those who see in the apparently spineless efforts of the Government a weakening in the plan, or at least a failure to carry out points of important detail.
4.15 p.m.
VISCOUNT LONG: My Lords, like the noble Marquess and the noble Lord who has just sat down, I venture to address your Lordships' House on the sole topic of the Territorial Army. My noble friend Lord Llewellin, in the course of his speech, said that the reason
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why we were so successful in recruiting for the Territorial Army at the end of the First World War was that we were able to recruit young boys at the age of 17. Lord Llewellin went on to say that by law we are not allowed to do that now. I put a question to the Government through Lord Pakenham as to whether the question of age was being seriously considered. It seems to me that we surely want to repeat the unqualified success we had at the end of the First World War. I know it would be only a short term of one year, but it would have the advantage that recruits would volunteer into their parent Territorial regiments, go from those to do their National Service training, and return from National Service back to their Territorial unit. What is happening to-day? I believe there are already over 250,000 boys who have come out of National Service and who are not in a Territorial unit at all. We have lost them, and it is hard work to persuade them to come into the Territorial Army at present.
May I now turn to the brilliant maiden speech of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal? Has it occurred to His Majesty's Government that it is possible to say, as I have heard it said, that we shall lose our cadets? I do not think that is true. In the County of Middlesex there are 100,000 youths of 17 years of age doing nothing, and in that county there are only 4,000 cadets. Where a cadet has an exemplary character and is a good type of lad, cannot the Government consider whether he should be allowed to join the Territorial Army at the age of 17, and, after he has come out and done twelve months' service, be allowed one year off the period he has to do? I appeal to the Government to consider this suggestion, because I do not believe we shall get men for the Territorial Army unless some step is taken in that direction. I believe that unless the Government come out with some scheme like that, we shall not have the cadres to train our National Service men. We hear a great deal about these cadres, but how large are they to be? Are they to be 20, 25 or 30 per cent. of the strength? I know that some Territorial Associations have laid down their own percentages, but not one word have we heard as to how large those cadres should be. It is not very encouraging.

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I am not altogether in agreement with the statement that poor quality buildings are the cause of the failure to get recruits. I know of many units where buildings are first-rate, with all the facilities that the men require. In one case I know of a regiment with excellent buildings but with fewer men than the regiment of which I have the honour of being honorary colonel. I do not think it is altogether a question of buildings, but without buildings we cannot store our equipment or get on with our training. That is the real point. Some of your Lordships may have noticed that I have had some dealings with the matter of Imber. It is most astounding that the Secretary of State for War has got rid of all the agriculturists and civilians in that area, but when it comes to getting rid of a fellow Minister who is occupying a War Office building, he cannot do it. For over a year now everybody in the town I have in mind, from the Mayor down, has been pressing for the release of the drill hall. But the Minister responsible says: "No. You keep away. You are, after all, only the Secretary of State for War. I am not interested in the Territorial Army." Those are the plain facts. That can hardly be regarded as an encouragement to the Territorial Army.
Let me turn to the question of why we are really short of buildings. Prior to the war, when the Territorial regiments were doubled, they had just begun to get into the swing, and were putting up new buildings, but the war came and put an end to it. What else happened? Many hutment camps were put up all over the country, and especially around cities like London. The first thing the Government did after the war was to have those hutment camps removed. We are told that there is no material, no money and no men to build; in fact, there is nothing. I asked—and I hope the noble Earl when he replies will be able to tell us—whether the Secretary of State has the power to grant money to the Associations for immediate repairs; that is to say, for drill halls to be altered, and for repairs to be carried out at once. We have been asking for this for months. Now I am informed by the Association that a letter has been received saying: "Will you please put down, for the umpteenth time, the estimates for your building, and so on?" So
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we shall go through the whole process of delay and delay, and eventually when next winter comes I suppose we shall be allowed some money to get on with our building. Unless those buildings are provided I am absolutely convinced that by the time 1950 comes we shall be quite unable to carry out the task that has been given to us. Fifteen months ago I warned the Government that if they did not help us in every way they could (I thought they were starting too soon, and I warned them then) they could not blame the Territorial Army for any fiasco that might take place afterwards. I say the same thing now. You must not blame the Territorial Army at this moment.
The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, spoke earlier of an astounding thing that has happened to one of the oldest Territorial regiments in the City of London. I would go so far as to ask: Why has not every Territorial unit in the City of London been asked to go on guard that day? What a wonderful thing if that could have been done. In 1944 I asked for a Territorial medal for the Territorial Army. That was refused. Since then I have been asking for a rosette, to be worn either on the war medal or the defence medal. It will cost the country nothing, but it will do an infinite amount of good—far more good than all the speeches than can be made. But, no; we are wanted only in times of emergency; and we are blamed because we sit back and ask for a little straw with which to make a few bricks.
There is one other point to which I must refer, and it is in regard to the forthcoming camps. It is far better for a unit not to go to camp unless it can be guaranteed on all grounds that the camp is to be successful. Otherwise, when the Government proceed with their national campaign in October these fellows and girls will say in large numbers: "Thank you very much. We have had it"; and they will not stay on. I will mention only one case. I have heard of one camp on the east coast of Suffolk where the A.T.S. were to sleep, six in a bell tent, on palliasses. That is all right after they have been campaigning for three or four months. Nobody did better than they did in the last awful winter of the war. But this is a peace-time camp; these girls are new to the A.T.S. I sincerely hope the noble Earl will be able to tell us that every step will be taken to see that these

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little details—which when put together amount to so much—will be looked into, in order that the camps have every chance of being successful. One other point on camps. Many of them are in isolated areas. Already commanding officers preparing their plans have been told: "No, you cannot carry out that plan, as there are no lorries and no petrol." Every sacrifice should be made to see that commanding officers have all the petrol and the lorries that they want in the various camps to which they go.
I want to say now one thing about the Regular Army. I have really no right to speak about the Regular Army, inasmuch as I have always been a Territorial soldier. But I am not satisfied that the men in the Regular Army, especially those in Germany, are receiving sufficient food. I think it is well cooked, but I have heard many criticisms as to the amount. I hope His Majesty's Government will keep a careful check on that, because these lads are all growing lads—they are not like the toughened "old sweats" of the First World War—and, in consequence, they must have gigantic appetites. But once again the old nigger is raising his ugly head on the fence. N.A.A.F.I. prices, I am told, are out of all proportion; they are so high that these fellows do not know how to carry on. Can His Majesty's Government see to it that these N.A.A.F.I. prices are kept down? What is happening now is exactly the same as happened after the First World War.
I have all my life been in favour of National Service, under Lord Roberts' scheme of 1908. In those days very large numbers were wanted. I do not know whether to-day it is so much a question of numbers, but I believe that if you pay the Army well, feed them well, and appeal to the spirit of adventure in the youth of the country, you will be able to do away with National Service and get every man you want from volunteers.
4.30 p.m.
EARL WAVELL: My Lords, I rise to speak from a comparatively narrow angle—that of a colonel of an infantry regiment—and on a single but, to my mind, vitally important matter—the value of the maintenance of the regimental spirit of tradition, which I feel is in some danger of being destroyed or weakened by recent developments. I am going to speak from the point of view of the Regular Army, and my remarks, therefore, might possibly
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have been better addressed to your Lordships next week on the occasion of the Army and Air Force Annual Bill. As I shall not be able to be present then, I ask your Lordships' indulgence while I say a few words on the subject of the regimental spirit.
I would preface my remarks by saying that I most fully realise and sympathise with the War Office in their present difficulties. In a peace-loving and unmilitaristic country like this, the period succeeding a great war is bound to be one of discouragement and disillusionment for the fighting Forces and all connected with them. The obvious form of retrenchment to repair the wastefulness of war is a reduction in the numbers of the so-called unproductive sailor, soldier and airman, and of his costly weapons. This perfectly natural and proper process begins and continues, and those who are responsible for post-war plans never know quite how much money is going to be at their disposal, or how many men. Very often, when they have made their plans, that which they seem to have, or have had promised to them, is taken away again. There is also the difficulty that the lessons of the last war have not yet been absorbed, and there has not been time to work out their effects on organisation and training. Of course, they have always been told that to prepare for the last war is complete folly. What the next war is likely to be is a tiling at which the imagination boggles, and so some people, including, I fear, some of those in responsible positions, just sit and boggle. Now in such difficult circumstances surely it is right to hold fast to one factor which is constant, which is proved and which has never failed us in all our long history—the regimental spirit and regimental tradition. There does seem to me to be a real danger of this not being given full consideration. Let me say at once that I fully support the decision to group infantry regiments. I have been in favour of that proposal ever since the end of the First World War. In, I think, 1926, the War Office put forward a tentative suggestion of grouping, but when it met with opposition from some of the colonels of regiments to whom it was referred, they unfortunately, unwisely and, I think, weakly, abandoned it. I know that the then colonel of my regiment, The Black Watch, the late General Sir

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Archibald Cameron, was strongly in favour of the group scheme, as was his successor, the late General Sir Arthur Wauchope. So the group idea is no new thing to us.
I believe that, without suffering the loss of any of the old regimental loyalties, we can make the group a real and living thing with a group spirit. I think we have already gone a long way towards that in the Highland Brigade group. It is the development and application of this group system which is causing great alarm. The original purpose of grouping was to get over the difficulty of reinforcement in the field because of the unequal incidence of casualties in units and, in peacetime, to equalise promotion in the higher ranks, both commissioned and non-commissioned. That was the original purpose, and the transfer of the officer or man from his own regiment to another regiment in the group was, as we understood the system originally, to be very exceptional in peacetime. But already there is a tendency to treat the regiments in a group as a single regiment, and to transfer both officers and men within it, often without apparently sufficient cause and with little regard to their original regiment.
Now it is quite realised that in the present period such transfers are unavoidable, but they must be made with due consideration and with proper cause. There is undoubtedly arising a fear that it will not stop there; that men will be transferred to regiments outside their own group. The debate last Friday in another place, in which it was decided that men could be compulsorily transferred from one corps to another, has naturally caused great uneasiness. It must be realised by all the authorities at the War Office that the group system can only work if all ranks have confidence that they can never be posted outside their own corps, and that they will be posted away from their own regiment within that group only where it is absolutely necessary. To depart from that principle will destroy the whole purpose of the group system and will defeat the endeavours of those of us who are doing our best to have the group system accepted and worked, in the course of which we may have to sink some of our old cherished regimental traditions and
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idiosyncrasies in dress and other matters in favour of uniformity within the group.
Another matter which is causing deep concern in some regiments is that good recruiting figures seem to carry no reward—in fact, rather the reverse. My own regiment, The Black Watch, has recruited sufficient Regulars since the war ended to man three Regular battalions at the present establishment. There are a large number of other regiments which, in the same period, did not attract sufficient recruits to man more than one company. And yet all of us are reduced to one battalion. The single Regular battalion of my own regiment has, apparently by the accident of its geographical station, been selected for a rôle having a very low Regular establishment, with the result that a regiment for whom nearly 1,600 men volunteered between 1945 and 1947 has now a Regular establishment of under 250. Last year I inspected the two Regular battalions of my regiment, one last March, in Karachi, and one in August, in Germany. They were then both well over 1,000 strong, more than half of whom were Regulars. Now the battalion in Germany has a Regular establishment of a little over 200, while the other battalion has been reduced to a cadre at the depôt of about 20 men; so that of those 1,100 Regulars whom I saw last year fewer than 250 now remain in their own regiment. I fully realise the difficulties, but I cannot believe that a system that produces results like that can be sound.
To show that the regimental spirit is not dead, and how strong are the feelings of the men, I may say that in the Regular battalion which remains the commanding officer had to give forty-six warrant officers and non-commissioned officers the choice of either remaining in their own regiment and being reduced in rank or going to other regiments if they wished to retain their rank. Of the forty-six, all but four elected to remain in the regiment. There is another matter in which I think the regimental spirit and the old tradition might have been better observed. There have been a number of new units formed since the war and added to our present organisation, as, for example, parachute battalions. Surely, instead of creating new units, it would have been better to take some of the magnificent Regular battalions that have been disbanded and

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turn them into the units required, with all their old traditions. Instead of that, new units have been created and old units have been asked to supply them with plate and furniture. I am all for progress but I think their old traditions are worth preserving.
There is one small tradition which appears in recent correspondence that I have had with the Adjutant-General's branch. I find that there are at least three departments of that branch which have abandoned the traditional military spelling of "Field Marshal" and always spell it with two "1's" at the end. As I have said, I realise the difficulties of the War Office and I fully sympathise with them; but I also know the feeling in regiments. I ask the Government to strengthen the hands of those of us who are doing our best to foster the group spirit, and thus to assist War Office plans, by giving full assurance that transfers within a group shall be as few as possible, that no man will be transferred against his will outside his own group, and that regiments with a good recruiting record will be given the advantage of higher and not lower Regular establishments. The regimental spirit is a very precious and very valuable thing. I think it is the greatest possession of our Army. It will stand up to a good deal of rough usage from the enemy in the field, and sometimes from the authorities in peace; but, as a French general remarked in the first world war, "Il ne faut pas brutaliser la machine." It must be treated wth some respect. I make a strong plea for more consideration of the regimental spirit and of the human factor.
4.45 p.m.
LORD MOYNIHAN: My Lords, in the period that has elapsed since we, in your Lordships' House, last debated the Territorial Army, it is depressing, but nevertheless true, to say that so far as the Territorial Army is concerned there has been no improvement whatsoever. In fact, I think it almost true to say that it has taken a turn for the worse—if worse it could be. There is a suggestion now that of the very small number which we have, one or two are beginning to go off, and the men are making excuses to leave. Before I deal with the Territorial Army I should like to say a few words about the Regulars, because under the National Service scheme they will have a great deal to do with supplying the future
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Territorial Army conscripts. We can now look at both the Territorial and the Regular Forces from the same point of view. They now have, or they will have in 1950, both volunteers and conscripts; and it is the volunteers on whose shoulders rests the great responsibility for the success or failure of the Army as a whole. I do not want this afternoon to go again into the question of conscription. I have stated before to your Lordships what I feel about that, and while I am allowed a voice in your Lordships' House I shall most probably do so again.
To fulfil all our commitments, both here and abroad, we must have a minimum number in the Army. We know perfectly well that we cannot compete with other great Powers in numbers, and therefore it is essential that the Army that we have is highly trained and technically expert. That is our task in the Army. Therefore it is necessary, in the short time that the conscript is in the. Army, to make sure he is capable of taking his place as a useful member of an active regiment should war break out. We have to ensure that, or we fail; and at the moment it looks very much as though we are beginning to fail. We now have conscripts in for a period of from eighteen months to two years; and wherever I have been and seen these people at work I have found the standard of training deplorably low. These boys start with a ten weeks' period, ten weeks of really good work—their original basic training. At the end of that ton weeks they come out physically very much better, and mentally much more active, than when they went into the Army. And then practically all the good that has been done is undone. The boys are sent to heir units, where usually they stay for the remainder of their time. The good is undone, first because there is inadequate instruction and, secondly, because there is a general atmosphere in these units of a lack of interest. This lack of interest seems gradually to produce in the mind of the conscript a feeling that there is no motive for doing anything except the bare minimum.
May I quote what was said only yesterday in a meeting of the British Council of Churches, when one of the speakers said (I quote from the Daily Graphic of to-day) that the conscript's time was not being used properly. The report goes on:

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" Two fathers had told him that their boys were lying on their beds reading magazines most of the time. No attempt was made to organise any kind of community activity. In six months they had not seen a chaplain."
I have been accused before now of quoting exceptions. This time I would like to ask the noble Earl who is to reply whether the Government are really satisfied with the training of these conscripts at the present time. Is the training what it should be? We must remember another thing: that if we do not have the right training, and if there is this lack of interest, which I suggest there is, then it is obvious that the soldier is not merely inefficient but comes out of the Army thoroughly dissatisfied, and is a very bad propagandist for the Army as a whole when he comes back into civil life.
In peace time the soldier is just as entitled to his five-day week as is the civilian. And he has his five-day week. But in the five days on which he works the soldier works nothing like so hard as the man who works in civil life. He starts about nine o'clock in the morning and finishes somewhere between four o'clock and four-thirty. He is given a half-hour break in the morning; he has a break for lunch of one hour or one and a half hours; and in those five days, also, he has a half holiday. The maximum amount of work that he does in a week is twenty-nine hours—and I think that that is actually far more than he really puts in; often, it is even much less than twenty-nine hours a week. If there could be a full five days' work, and if that man could be sent to bed mentally and physically tired out, then I think he would be, first of all, very much happier and, secondly, his time would not be wasted during his year or one and a half years in the Regular Army.
May I suggest one thing that we could do to see that he is helped? Before the Second World War, we had educational certificates. They were then part of the general training, part of the trade proficiency tests which had to be passed. Those tests had to be passed in order to obtain trade pay. Why cannot that system be introduced again? Why cannot those tests be given, within three or four months of a man joining, and if there is an emergency again why cannot we let men come into the Army with that extra pay straight away? It should be the ambition of the Regular Army that at
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the end of the year's training most of these conscripts will desire to stay in the Army, and not be only too thankful to get out of it. May I say just a word about the Regular volunteers? There are amongst them far too few instructors and far too few technicians. The reason is always the same—insufficient pay and insufficient allowances. You must pay the man in the Army an equal rate with the man in civil life, and that means equal pay for the same type of work, for the technical civilian gets a great deal more pay than the technician in the Army. I think this has been mentioned before this afternoon, but cannot we once more have guaranteed employment available to those men when they leave the Army? Surely, with so many nationalised services, we can arrange some kind of guarantee that when men come out of the Army they will be eligible for good jobs.
So far as the Territorial Army is concerned, as 1950 draws nearer, and as nothing in the meantime seems to be done, one becomes more and more depressed. Unless drastic action is taken, 1950 will arrive without anything like the number of volunteers that we require to form the cadres to train those conscripts. If we go on as we are going on at present, the National Service man will come into the Territorial Army unwillingly, thankful to be rid of the Regular Army and not in the spirit that has made the Territorial Army so great in the past. They need not even attend the drills. The sixty days can be served by going to camp for fifteen days a year for those four years. The Territorial volunteer is going to spend his time just looking after people for a fortnight in camp. We have heard time and time again of all the things that should be provided—better drill halls, better amenities and more equipment. I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, although I am sure that he knows much more about these things than I do. I do not think that we are getting any equipment. All the anti-aircraft regiments of which I know (I have one of my own) have not their equipment. It is promised, but it never comes. When it does come it is not in action; it cannot be put into action because there are not the technicians to come and put it into action.
May I give two examples of what is happening, and what I think could be done? Ever since I have taken over my

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regiment, I have wanted paint. I have wanted paint for my equipment, although it is not working. I have wanted paint for my transport. I have wanted paint for my drill hall. And all the time I am told that paint is in very short supply. Within two months of the railways being nationalised, one may see engines shining with new paint, and "British Railways" painted across them. The Government are proud of their British Railways, but why will not they let us be proud of our regiments? Why will they not give us some encouragement? Take transport. Officials in nationalised industries go about in fine new cars. Some of them go in them to their large country mansions from their offices. What do we do? The Territorial C.O. goes about in a grocer's van; the Territorial brigadier goes about in a broken-down car; and sometimes we have no offices at all to go to. We want more encouragement so that we may be proud of being members of the present Territorial Army.
Take another small matter. Gunners are to be given blue berets. We have recently seen an example of that in the Tower of London. I agree that they look grand; they are very smart. Why cannot we have them now, and not promised in two or three years' time? When I was a second lieutenant in France in 1939–40 and we had those ridiculous "fore and aft" caps that fell off every time we manned a gun, I bought my own men blue berets. I was nearly court-martialled for doing it. However, they looked smart, and they were good. It is no use promising that we shall have them in three or four years' time. And they would not cost much money. We have been promised this great recruiting drive in the autumn, but I do not believe that that is what is needed. If we could take the money that we are to spend on the recruiting drive and spend it on the things I have mentioned, and if we could have really good help from the leaders of the Government in broadcasts and speeches all over the country, then I think that the Territorial Army could advertise itself.
I refer again to the question of bounties. A Territorial receives £8 a year as a bounty for working well throughout the whole year. Before the Chancellor of the Exchequer put a tax on totalisators at the greyhound race meetings, I believe
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that the average takings per night per person at those meetings were £5. I am not suggesting that the bounty should be given for this purpose, but if one person can put £5 per night on a dog then surely £8 is not much to get for a whole year's hard work. May I suggest what I think would be a fit sum? Let us start with £12 for the one-star private, and let us put it up by degrees until a man receives £1 a week (£52 a year) as a fully trained regimental instructor, be he N.C.O. or officer. There is not room for many men of that kind in the regiments, so there should not be an enormous number of them. That would be an incentive which would encourage them to go on. I know that patriotism is the first and most important incentive, but we also want something more practical to offer the men.
Finally, I would like to mention two things that I think would help more than anything else. The first is something that I mentioned last time I spoke, and I am glad to say that it was mentioned in another place a few weeks ago. It is this: Let us have four years in the Territorial Army as an alternative to National Service. If we can get these people into the Territorial Army, and say, "We let you off your year," then we shall attract the kind of soldiers who are fit to fight when the war comas along, if it ever does. I want to go one stage further than the noble Viscount, Lord Long, in regard to cadets. Why cannot we do the same with cadets? I have twenty cadets attached to my unit. They are very keen on the 3·7 anti-aircraft gun. They chose that as their special work in regard to their Certificate "A" which they took last week. They come every week to lectures, and they will come to our weekend camps and to cur fifteen-day camp. We shall get those lads thoroughly interested for two years in the Territorial Army, then off they will go to serve as conscripts, and they will come back as quite different people. If we could keep them, and tell them they need not go into the Army if they come to the Territorial Army for four years, and if we teach them, then they will provide the leaders of the Territorial Army and the officers of the future Do not kill all their great keenness and their spirit by sending them unnecessarily for a year as a conscript.

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We all want a good Territorial Army; we all want a highly trained and efficient Regular Army. But if we go on as we are at the moment we shall not have either. I know there are difficulties. I appreciate the enormous difficulties that this Government have, or any other Government would have had in the same circumstances; but, at whatever cost, something must be done, and must be done quickly, or it will be too late.
5.3 p.m.
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, the hour is late, and my only excuse for abandoning my usual contribution, the golden contribution of silence, and substituting a very debased silver coinage, or speech, is that, like many of your Lordships, I too have spent all my adult life in the service of the Auxiliary Forces and in the capacity of Chairman of one of the large Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations. I am still occupied in that work and in one or two other ways. Noble Lords have covered very thoroughly the large amount of ground which lay open for review to-night, and have gone into great detail. It would not be fitting that I should either traverse the same ground or should attempt to deal with any of those matters pertaining to the rôle of the Regular Forces in conjunction with the Auxiliary Forces, because that has not been my life. I have had the opportunity of admiring their work and I have done my best to co-operate with them, but that is as far as my experience goes with the Regular Forces, if we except those obvious periods of warfare into which we were all drawn.
It is not my wish to-night to suggest a line of attack on His Majesty's Government—far from it. I have had certain opportunities of appreciating the deep thought given by Service Departments to the problems of which we are all aware in general terms. I know that a great deal has been done fairly recently and I trust that when the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, replies, he will be able to give us some encouragement arising from the recent conversations—since, let us say, last autumn. As I said, I do not want to suggest any line of attack on His Majesty's Government, but I do want briefly to suggest a line of attack for His Majesty's Government; that is, for the implementation of their own policy as
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announced by the Prime Minister in another place about a year ago. There is the scheme of reconstitution of the Auxiliary Forces—and in parentheses I say "Auxiliary Forces," because we know that although this debate deals specially with the Territorial Army, by intention it can be held to cover all three Services, as one of the instruments of the Territorial Army are the County Associations which serve all three Services. I believe there is to be a debate on the Auxiliary Air Force. The sense of urgency has been stressed in regard to the Territorial Army, and we may think of it in terms of months; when we come to the Auxiliary Air Force, however, the stress may occur not in months but in minutes.
Now as to the line of attack for His Majesty's Government in the implementation of their own declared policy. I have no doubt that the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, who is speaking before the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, will pick up all the points which remain, and it is not in my province to take on this task. There are, however, one or two broad points which suggest themselves to me for the implementation of the stated policy. We know that the Defence Services are in the doldrums, as the noble Earl, Lord Wavell, remarked. What can we do to get out of those doldrums? Many of us think that we need a new start from the top. That point has already been made by more than one noble Lord this afternoon. Many of us think that striving, as recently we have, to reconstitute the Auxiliary Forces, we have been fighting with one hand behind our backs. The policy has been announced, but the spirit wherewith to carry it out has been totally lacking. There has been no drive, there has been no coherence of organised endeavour.
The continual revision of priorities—a matter which I am sure preoccupies the Cabinet—has not tended to bring into modern perspective the part to be played by the Auxiliary Forces. I would urge, therefore, that at the proper place and at the proper time, but before very long, His Majesty's Government should re-issue their policy as an article of faith, and that having regard to the present external situation the members of His Majesty's Government should lose no opportunity in re-assessing the importance of the building up of our Auxiliary Forces. We

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are aware of the claims of other Departments of State, we are aware of the shortages, and we realise the great difficulties of such re-assessment from time to time; but we understand that the policy of 1947 stands good. Until that policy is modified we should give our services to the Auxiliary Forces in the capacities in which we can do our best to carry it out. But in order to be effective we must have some power behind our elbows. We put forward a request for that power, not selfishly but because we believe that the declared policy of His Majesty's Government is right, and so long as we serve His Majesty's Forces we wish to implement that policy.
I referred for a moment to the County Territorial Auxiliary Forces Associations. Roughly speaking, there are about one hundred of them. Again roughly speaking, I would guess that there is a general average of about fifty members per Association; that is to say, 5,000 men in all, drawn on a basis which has been reconstituted recently on the advice of the Services. And it is a very wide basis representing the activities of all those parts of the nation which are judged to be conducive to the efficient service of the Auxiliary Forces. They are men of experience, and men who are accustomed to take quite large decisions in their own private lives. They are men of enthusiasm, of local standing, of local knowledge and prestige. These Associations are still as they have been ever since the late Lord Haldane codified them under the Territorial Reserve Forces Act, 1907, the chosen instrument for carrying out all administrative aspects of policy with regard to the Auxiliary Forces.
But these Associations do not get much encouragement. Their powers are very limited. We accept the over-all control of the Treasury and the temporary control of other Departments in times of shortage. But I do say, with a certain experience behind me, that the good will of these public spirited men is somewhat damped, their ardour is somewhat curbed, by the continued and, as I think, largely avoidable pin-pricks and restrictions which now hamper them. I would therefore urge that, as a matter of broad policy, greater over-all authority and responsibility be given to these County Associations. If they are not as efficient as they should be, powers exist to make
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them so, and I trust that they will be reorganised and so modified as to be in every way efficient. It would not be logical, nor would I wish to seek, that large powers should be given to any bodies in charge of public funds unless an essential rider were added that they should be required to put themselves in most efficient shape.
I have noticed this afternoon that there has been some disposition to deal with the many points which arise with a recruited Army. Many noble Lords have stressed the difficulties of recruiting and the fact that recruiting at the moment is bad—very bad, I would say. But may I take first things first? May we consider the hatching of our chicks before we count them? And why have not more chicks been hatched? We know of the war-weariness which has existed and still exists in this country. We know that when passing through the doldrums an appeal for military activity is always very difficult to put across. We also know that there are a good many practical points which could be tackled. We realise that rousing and sincere speeches from men at the head of the Government, and from others throughout the Government, would help greatly, particularly with the great trade unions, to bring home a sense of reality in this matter. Can we afford to do without our Auxiliary Forces? Of course we cannot. I am not convinced, however, that that is fully understood. Now what other factors could be envisaged to help to put this appeal over? I regard the problem at this stage—I repeat, at this stage—as essentially a civilian problem, because until the civilians have given the lead and have induced the young men and maidens to come forward and give their services there is no material on which our admirable Regular Forces can work.
I do not think that just now these young men and maidens turn a very ready ear to exhortations from military sources. The time is not a good one for that. I believe, however, that they will always listen to those who work with them. With what are these young men and maidens chiefly preoccupied? With their daily life, the success of their own enterprises, their Friday pay packets. Those are the things that go to make up their background. But give them the facts, put them before them logically. Let us have no false quantities

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in our exhortations. Present the case logically and add to the case—as I always believe in doing—a nice taste of idealism. We hear a good deal about the money element in regard to this matter, and a very important element it is. Let us always be fair in regard to money matters, pay and allowances and so forth. But let us not lose sight of the other side—a side which we have not heard stressed very much in this debate. I refer, of course, to idealism. Idealism is something to which all respond. Young people, I am sure, respond now just as well as ever they did. I have lived my life in factory and in office, and I have also met many countrymen, but I have never found that an appeal to some extent on the ground of idealism fails.
May we, therefore, invite the Government to take steps to create the spirit which is now lacking? I believe that they can do it. I am sure that they will have the wholehearted support of the employers, difficult though their position is now because they have to balance the needs of production and distribution with the needs of the Auxiliary Forces, and they have had no lead from the Government over the question of holidays with pay. I am sure that if the Government do this they will get a response from the ordinary men and women of this country. I am confident that a national appeal can be organised with the good will of the great unions. I would further suggest to His Majesty's Government that a clearer definition of the categories of men and women likely to be available for retention in the Auxiliary Forces should be attempted. I know the difficulties. I know what has been said hitherto. It is decidedly vague, and any further definition would be very helpful. I would suggest that at the proper time some more substantial mention be made of co-ordination between the military and civil defence services, production and essential civilian occupations. Pronouncements under those headings are woolly. They are not inspiring. I hope that the Government will in due course be able to deal with that point. As to accommodation, your Lordships have heard varying opinions expressed. To deal with the matter over-all, having being able to collate opinions from all over the United Kingdom, I have no doubt that the lack of accommodation for the greatly expanded Territorial Army,
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with its greater complexity and greater needs, is a factor which now throws into jeopardy the whole of this attempt to reorganise our Auxiliary Forces.
Finally, let us get rid of the serious anomalies, and they are many, on such questions as holidays with pay, obligations of National Service men to do Reserve training, volunteering and repercussions on possible employment. Let us sweep away all these anomalies. If the Government will now implement their own policy with a staunch statement covering these issues, if they will vest sufficient authority in those civilian bodies charged with the administration of the Territorial Army in all matters except command and training—I refer to the County Associations—we will succeed yet. But it is the eleventh hour.
5.23 p.m.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, many of your Lordships who have spoken have drawn attention to the low level at which the strength of the Territorial Army stands to-day. It is on that matter that I wish to address a few words to your Lordships this afternoon. The Defence White Paper, published in February of this year, referred to it as being disappointing. It certainly is disappointing, and I would say that it is so disappointing as to be very serious. We have recently had a number of official statements—three, to be exact—as to our strength to-day. I am not going to dwell on the reasons why these three statements are different. Let us take the number as substantially 40,000. In a reply in another place on March 2, as regards the strength in relation to establishment, the answer was given that the provisional establishment was 581,510, which means that the percentage of strength to establishment to-day is approximately 7 to 8 per cent. Like my noble friend Lord Mancroft, I have not seen any recent announcement as to what percentage is to be allowed in 1950, when the National Service men come in, but looking back as far as December 5, 1946, I see that the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham in your Lordships' House, made the specific statement that it was hoped then that the volunteer strength would be approximately 25 to 30 per cent.; and in the case of anti-aircraft units he went so far as to say 50 per cent.
Since December, 1946, we have had a great deal of experience, and I am quite

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sure that no one would anticipate that we could possibly get anywhere near that figure. But we should have some figure in our minds in order to measure the problem we are facing. Time after time, quite unofficially, I have heard the figure of 20 per cent. mentioned, but in order to make the problem as easy as possible I am going to suggest a figure of 15 per cent. I personally do not think it can be less than that, because we have to remember that the composition of these cadres is voluntary, and we obviously can never rely on volunteers always to come for instruction on the particular evenings or week-ends we desire. Therefore 15 per cent. is an absolute minimum. On the other hand, I think it is possibly enough, bearing in mind that it will take five to six years to bring units up to full strength when National Service men start to come in. Let us take 15 per cent. and the last nine months of 1949 as the absolute minimum period which those cadres will require to train themselves into proper teams to be ready to accept the National Service men. There we have before us the extent of our problem. It is to double our existing strength in the next twelve months. If anyone thinks that going along as we are there is the slightest chance of approaching that target, I suggest, with all respect, that he is entirely wrong.
It seems to me that those who think we can reach that target fail to appreciate the reasons why the average man and officer joins the Territorial Army to-day. In the case of a man seeking a career in the Army, surely what he asks himself is whether it is congenial to him and, if it is congenial to him, what are the pay and pension rights and other conditions. Whether or not he goes into the Regular Forces depends on the answers to those questions. But in the case of a man going into the Territorial Army, the position is entirety different. Before he goes in, questions of money and conditions of service are of small account. They become of account once he has gone in, however, because, without first-class equipment and satisfactory pay and allowances, he will not he a satisfied member of his unit, and the efficiency of the unit will obviously go down. But those are not the factors which influence him before he goes in. I think that is borne out by the experience we had before the war. Though before the war we may not have thought we had a high level of recruiting, I think, looking
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back, that it was not too bad, and conditions of service, we must all admit, were deplorable.
I would divide the members of the Territorial Army before the war into two main classes. There was the small nucleus of enthusiasts who had seen service in the 1914–18 war, who had no illusions as to what war meant, but yet were sufficiently enthusiastic to wish to continue their service; they joined the Territorial Army at the end of the war. Then we had all he remainder, who joined for a variety of reasons. But overriding all those reasons there was another powerful factor. These men mostly joined as young men. They had had no previous war experience, and they thought that by joining the Territorial Army they would get a measure of excitement and adventure which their civil occupations were quite unable to provide. To-day we rind exactly the same influences, but the circumstances are entirely different. To-day, nearly all potential volunteers have lad war experience. They probably have had all the excitement they want; they have no illusions as to what war means, and it is only the real enthusiasts who are coming forward as volunteers to join. They would come in whatever the conditions were. I think it is probably safe to say, following on that, that all those ex-Service men who will come in are already in.
I am inclined to think that if it had been possible (I do not think it would) for there to be a. Territorial Army in existence during the latter part of 1945, and the early part of 1946, when the release rate was at its peak, we might then have attracted a few extra men. It may be that a big recruiting campaign, such as we are told is to be undertaken in the Autumn, may bring in some of these men. I am quite certain that we shall get a number—again the real enthusiasts—from the men who are released during the next twelve months. We are told that there are 189,000 of them. But I maintain that, going along as we are now, short of a crisis equivalent to the 1938–1939 crisis, we shall never succeed in doubling our existing strength. Those are the implications. What are we going to do about it? The Secretary of State for War, speaking in another place on March 2, referred to the Army as a British National Army of three constituents: there was the Regular content, the National Service element, and

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the voluntary element. If we concede that concept, I think we must admit that, as in other walks of life, the strength of the whole will be limited by the strength of the weakest link. In these circumstances, we must admit that should war break out in the course of the next few years the weakest link would be the size—not the quality—of the volunteer element of the Territorial Army which is to provide the senior officers and the senior N.C.Os.
In passing, I would say that the position is not improved by the fact that in a crisis we should, presumably, lose men who are at present on our strength and who are in reserved occupations. If the position to-day were such as it was in, shall I say, 1920 or 1921, when the time factor was favourable, I believe we might have had a fairly easy solution to this problem. I would then have suggested that, leaving the National Service obligation as it is at twelve months, and retaining the right to make it obligatory on men subsequently to join the Reserve, they should be allowed to volunteer for the Territorial Army, perhaps with some inducement. Obviously we should not have got in so many men in the first year or so of the scheme; probably we should not have drawn in any more than the cadres could satisfactorily handle. But I believe that in the long run we should not have been so much longer in coming up to full strength as it is now planned that we shall be. And, of course, that scheme would have other advantages, in that it would overcome many of the problems—of which I know your Lordships are fully aware—of fitting all these National Service men into the appropriate units. But that scheme presupposes that the time factor is favourable, and no one can reasonably accept the fact that it is. We have to find some other solution if the twelve months' full-time service of these National Service men, which is very costly, in both money and man-power, is not to be wasted. We cannot afford to waste anything these days.
It might be suggested that one could strengthen the cadres shortly before the end of next year with a larger element of the Regular Forces. But judging from the position of the Regular Forces to-day, I hardly think that would be practicable. It might be that during the next twelve
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months or so one could slow down the release from full-time service of the 1946–47 classes, so as to compensate for any additional demand on the Regular Forces such as I mentioned a moment ago. There, again, I suggest that it is probably impracticable, bearing in mind that it would put an additional strain on the manpower situation in the country generally. I believe, however, that there is another possible solution, and this is the one which I want to address to His Majesty's Government. Taking the case of men of the 1946–47 classes who are to be released during the next twelve months, would it be possible to offer to selected individuals from those classes some tangible inducement to join the Territorial Army at the end of their release leave? The sort of tangible inducement I have in mind is, perhaps, some measure of accelerated release, leaving their gratuity the same as it would have been if they had not been released earlier. We are told that in the next twelve months there are 189,000 men coming out. I should have thought it would be possible to get a reasonable proportion of those—specially selected men—who would be prepared to join the Territorial Army, given as a quid pro quo some tangible inducement such as I have mentioned.
It is quite clear that something has to be done. Many noble Lords speaking to-day have drawn attention to the onerous rôles that the Territorial Army have been given. There is the A.A., coast defence, the provision of units to bring the Regular Force up to a balanced Force, the provision of a Territorial Field Force of their own, and so on. Unless we get these cadres up to reasonable size, in order to accept the National Service men, if a crisis occurred during the next few years those rôles would not be filled. That would be serious enough, but I foresee something much more serious than that. I foresee, in a last-minute attempt to make good some of the gaps in those rôles that I have just mentioned—one might call it a panic measure—the taking of men from the Regular Field Force, already much too small, thereby weakening it so much as to make it a quite ineffective instrument of war. That, to my mind, is a natural consequence of the position, and it is a very serious one. I have put forward this suggestion. I realise that it has many practical problems

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if it is to be put into effect, but I believe that, given time, those problems are not insoluble. Therefore, I ask that if anything is to be done, it shall be done at the earliest possible moment.
5.40 p.m.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, in rising to address your Lordships I do not propose to say very much on a matter which has been fully explored by all those who have spoken before me. Perhaps I should also say that, unlike most of the noble Lords who have spoken previously in this debate, I have no immediate connection with the Territorial Army now. It is true, however—and it is only on this account that I venture to make a few remarks to your Lordships—that ever since the Territorial Army was started I had the privilege of belonging to it for many years up to the end of the First Great War, and a great deal longer than that as a member of the Essex Territorial Association. Consequently, I have not been out of touch with what is going on, nor am I without experience of what happened in the position that had to be dealt with at the close of the First Great War. I should have liked to enlarge upon that matter, but I will certainly not do so after what has been said, nor will I deal with many of the points which have been made by previous speakers—for instance, with the value of the cadet movement, the introduction of the bonus, and various other ways in which much could be done to remedy the deficiency in the recruiting of the Territorial Army.
But there is one point that has been brought home to me particularly forcefully, and it is the only one with which I propose to deal. It concerns the unfortunate delays in providing the necessary drill halls and buildings that are most urgently required at the present time if any of the suggestions for increasing the recruiting are brought into effect and larger numbers are provided for the ranks of the Territorial Army. I think that that delay is the common experience of Territorial Army Associations all over the country. Perhaps the shortest way in which I can put that to your Lordships—and I hope to the advantage of your Lordships' discussion—is by quoting the terms of a resolution passed by the West Riding Association and sent to the Secretary of State. That resolution says:
" That this Association feels it to be its duty to warn the Secretary of State for War
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that, unless effective steps are taken to enable it to obtain sites and erect accommodation with less procedural delays than at present, headquarters will not be provided for all units of the Territorial Army in this county in sufficient time for the training cadres to have the period of nine months' preparation as a team, which is deemed necessary by the General Staff, before the arrival of the first National Service men in January, 1950."
I think that is one of the elements which has created an atmosphere of discouragement on the part of both the Territorial Associations themselves—who, as the noble Earl, Lord Limerick said, have been doing all they can to implement the policy of His Majesty's Government in every part of the country—and also (because of the want of these facilities and buildings) the men themselves and the recruits generally all over the country.
There are one or two matters in this respect which I hope His Majesty's Government will take into serious consideration. For instance, as has been represented already, the Associations have no delegated authority to purchase land or property either by negotiation or compulsion; whereas it is believed that the regional agents of other Government Departments have such powers and have, therefore, a considerable advantage in acquiring land or property. That point has already been alluded to by a previous speaker, and it is one which I think requires greater attention on the part of those who wish to fill up the ranks of the Territorial Army and all that that implies. Also, in view of the time taken to obtain decisions from the War Office, and having regard to current building costs, the delegated powers of the Associations in the matter of construction of temporary accommodation are entirely inadequate. The Ministry of Works, by its control of starting dates, further delays the construction of accommodation already approved by the War Office.
I hold in my hand a list of actual cases showing the almost incredible delays which have occurred, in particular in the County of Essex. I will not weary the House by going through all of them, but I should like to mention one or two. There is one site at Woodford. This land site was purchased for the Territorial Army prior to 1939, but has never been built on. A hutting scheme to house a local Royal Engineers Territorial Army Squadron was submitted to the War Office in June, 1947. No approval has yet been

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received. This letter is dated April 9 of this year. The reply is awaited from the War Office through Eastern Command. Again, there is another case in the county town of Chelmsford, where there was a site purchased prior to 1939 but not built on. A hutting scheme to house local Chelmsford Territorial units was submitted to the War Office on August 12, 1947, and approval is still awaited from the War Office through Eastern Command. I will not go further into the cases that are before me, but what emerges from them is this. I cannot help feeling that a good deal could undoubtedly be done if the War Office removed a certain amount of red tape from around their system, and in that way gave more encouragement to the Associations to deal with these questions in a more rapid manner. I will not develop another point which has already been mentioned, with regard to the way in which other Departments of State are apparently in a better position to secure what is required for their purpose than are the Territorial Associations, because it might be invidious to do so.
There is, however, another point of detail which I should like to mention before I sit down, and that is that the amount of money which is now allowed to be used immediately at the discretion of Commands and of the Associations is very small. In the case of Commands it is something like £5,000, and in the case of Territorial Associations £1,000. I think your Lordships will agree that, in these days, to have those limitations for urgent and necessary repairs is really ridiculous. I would therefore appeal to the noble Earl who is to reply to give us some reassurance that that matter, among others, will be carefully and thoroughly considered.
I do not propose to delay the House with further remarks from myself, but I should like in conclusion, as an old member of a County Territorial Association, to urge upon His Majesty's Government what the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, said—that they should go all out to encourage the County Territorial Associations to do the job for which I believe they are thoroughly well fitted. As I am not any longer a member myself, I can speak with an open heart, but I know the sort of elements that go to make up the committees
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responsible for the County Territorial Associations, both up and down the country and in London. If only those gentlemen felt they had more of the backing of the Government as a whole, and not merely of the War Office, they would respond even better than they do under the discouraging conditions in which they conduct their work. I can remember the beginning of the Territorial Army. I can remember the steps then taken by the members of His Majesty's Government in power at the time, and I know the difference it made when the Secretary of State for War went to various parts of these islands and took a direct and ardent part in enthusing other people over the creation of the Territorial Army.
I believe something of the same sort could be done to-day. I do not pretend that there is not a great deal for His Majesty's Government to attend to which must distract them from the subject of the Territorial Army—matters of great and grave national importance. But if the Territorial Army is really to discharge the function which it has been called upon to discharge, the two things hang together—the success of the national policy abroad and the control and development of adequate Forces at home. Therefore I trust His Majesty's Government will do far more than they have done up to the present to give the necessary encouragement and information up and down the country, so that the Territorial Army can be fitted to discharge the functions with which it has been entrusted.
5.51 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAM: My Lords, my first task must be very respectfully to congratulate the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Wilson, on his maiden speech in your Lordships' House. I do so the more readily because I have soldiered under him for many years in the Rifle Brigade, and it was largely from his teaching and example that I learned most of the soldiering that I know. I should also like to say, on my own behalf and on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches, how sorry we all were to hear of the accident which has befallen the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham. I know that he had taken a considerable amount of trouble in preparing for this debate and we are very sorry that he is not able to be here. At the same time, we much appreciate the action

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of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in stepping into the breach—though whether we shall appreciate what he is going to say to us it is perhaps a little early to say.
During this afternoon's debate, our object has been to try to further the policy of His Majesty's Government in respect of the Army; and as we were told just now, that policy has been stated by the Secretary of State for War as including first an efficient Regular Army. I think that includes an efficient striking force as well as a workable National Service scheme—a matter on which the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, spoke at some length. I am sorry to say that I, cannot entirely agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Long, that we can obtain all the men we need by voluntary means. Unfortunately, the numbers required are too great; and the National Service scheme must be made, and can be made, to work. Last but not least we need a Territorial Army which, as the poet says, is "fit for the deed" it has to do. It must be a Territorial Army which will bear due relation to the requirements of operations—and that applies particularly, as the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Wilson said, to anti-aircraft units. Nothing will be more dispiriting to people in the Territorial Army, or in the Regular Army for that matter, than to feel that they are not able to fulfil their true function. And that is what is likely to happen unless measures are adopted which have not hitherto been adopted. There must be preparation for a state of readiness, a realistic state of readiness. There must be time to train. There must be space for expansion, so that there shall not be a shambles on the outbreak of war. There must be facilities to train leaders.
There are two or three main requisites for all this. The first requisite is stability of conditions of service in both Regular and Territorial Armies. At present there is no stability at all. I recollect asking in the debate in your Lordships' House on the Defence White Paper, whether the order of battle had been settled. I did not ask what the order of battle was, because I felt certain that the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, would say that considerations of security would prevent his answering. I did not receive an answer to my question; but it is quite plain to me that until the order of battle is settled, stability of conditions in the Regular
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Army cannot be achieved. The noble Earl, Lord Wavell, spoke with great force on the question of inter-posting, and I am sure he will agree with me that it is unlikely Regular soldiers will enlist in large numbers unless they know for certain that the corps or regiment in which they mean to enlist is to be there. I should like also to reinforce what the noble and gallant Earl said about the regimental spirit. I have seen a certain amount of this spirit from another angle; and I think the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Wilson, will rejoice with me that the Highland Brigade Group is going well. He will also rejoice, I believe, when I add that the Green Jacket Group is also going along quite nicely.
To revert to the question of stability, I must say that until the order of battle is settled, until people know that the corps for which they want to enlist will be there, and that they will not be transferred and pushed about, we cannot expect Regular recruiting to proceed as it should. Nor can we expect Regular or Territorial recruiting to proceed as it should unless we are certain that we are offering the right incentives to join. A number of these have been mentioned and I will not go over them again. There is the question of uniform. We were told about two years ago that Number I dress was to be produced. Number I dress was paraded before the Army Council and, I think, before the Government and before His Majesty. No sooner had that been clone than it appeared that the whole thing was an illusion, and that there was not the slightest intention of producing Number I dress. If we proceed on those lines we cannot expect that recruiting will go well.
Let me turn for a moment to housing. I noticed on looking at the Army Estimates that although housing for the Territorial Army permanent staff is provided in this year's Estimate, no houses are to be built for the Regulars in Regular Army stations. In the Defence White Paper of 1947 we were told that we were not to expect a better standard of housing than the nation at large was to get. That, of course, we accept; but I have a strong suspicion that the standard of the provisional housing for the Forces is not equal to that which the civilian is getting. Nearly a year ago we asked the question whether any prefabricated houses lad been allotted to the Services; we never

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received an answer. I am trying to be constructive and not destructive because I realise the difficulties.
Let me turn to another point. It should be realised that the Territorial Army and, in fact, the whole of the Army is no mere departmental matter for which Mr. Shinwell is responsible, not merely something which belongs to one province of the Government, but something which belongs to the country at large. The noble Earl, Lord Limerick, and the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, both stressed that point. The trade unions were mentioned. The trade unions have a great part to play in this matter, and I am certain that they are playing it in support of the Army. I am sure they are also playing their part in support of the Territorial Army. They have an important rôle in regard to the question of employment of ex-Regular soldiers—a matter which has several times been ventilated in your Lordships' House, but on which we still have not had a definite answer. Has a proper scheme been worked out by which every ex-Regular soldier, sailor or airman of good character and long service can be guaranteed employment at the end of his service?
Those are some of the needs which I think exist. There has been much time wasted, but it is no good crying over spilt milk. Equally, however, if there are troubles, it is no good shirking investigation of them as best we may. I am afraid we are all agreed that neither the Regular Army nor the Territorial Army are really in the healthy condition in which they should be. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, made that point strongly about the Territorial Army. There are not the men, there are not the facilities for training and there are not the administrative facilities. Therefore we must hark back for a moment to 1945, not because it was the time when the present Government came into power, but because it was the time when the Second World War ended and the transition of the Forces from war to peace had to take place. At that time a plan was ready. The order of battle might have been settled. It might have been possible to do as the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, said—namely, to reconstitute the Territorial Army so quickly that people could go straight into it. It might have been done or it might have been
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too difficult, but I think it is certain that something could have been done on the lines which the noble Lord also suggested, to make it possible and attractive for the National Service man who had come straight out of the Army to go into the Territorial Army, instead of letting the present state of affairs continue, in which, so far as I know, nothing is done to adopt that more useful source of recruitment.
Definite plans could have been started in 1945 for the construction of houses and employment, and also in regard to pay, a matter about which several of my noble friends have already spoken. Pay arrangements could have been so framed as not to be stultified immediately afterwards when a rise in civil wages took place. What happened was this. The pay code was settled, the Army pay was paid on the basis of comparative civilian wages and the cost of living at that time; but no sooner was the ink dry on the paper than civilian wages rose again and the Army pay was out of gear, and out of gear it has stayed from then till now.
Several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, have spoken about premises. I honestly believe that this question of premises for the Territorial Army is now the most vital question. As some noble Lords have said, you may have the most lovely premises and yet not have any people in them; it is certainly true, however, that you will not get anybody at all into the Territorial Army unless you have premises. This is a point which I should like to make strongly to the noble Earl opposite. I would ask him to put this point to his colleagues with all the force at his command, because I believe that it is absolutely fundamental to the question of whether or not in 1950, when the National Service men begin to come out of the Army and join the Territorial Army, we are to have any place for the Territorial Army to occupy. Otherwise we shall have the National Service men coming along in 1950, all dressed up but with no place for them to go.
I am told that there are now 252 Territorial Army units which have not yet any premises available for them. I do not want to use over strong language in your Lordships' House, but such a position makes absolute nonsense. We are getting nowhere. If nothing happens in the meantime, we shall find ourselves in

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1950 in the position to which I have just referred. There will be a major shambles. Here again, I am trying not to be purely destructive, because I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, that the constructive remedy is to give the Associations their head. They know what is wanted locally, for they consist of people of experience and ability, local knowledge and connections. Although I am myself a member of the Territorial Association, I put it to your Lordships that most of the members of the Territorial Association are people sufficiently responsible and of sufficient means not to go and do foolish things merely because they think the money belongs to the War Office. It will not be possible by any central administration to remedy this problem.
I apologise to your Lordships for having said so much about premises, but I emphasise that I think it is important. From 1945 until now very little has happened. One plan after another has been discarded and still no one knows where he is. There is a quotation from Pilgrim's Progress which I might make:
"Simple said, ' I see no danger; there will not be a war just yet.' Sloth said, 'Yet a little more sleep.'"
Field-Marshal Earl Wavell put it a little differently, in that he said that all that has happened has been that they just sat and boggled. All these things key in one to another. Because the Regular conditions of service are not good right through, there are not enough Regulars to train National Service men. The difficulties that they are going to encounter in dealing with this large number of National Service men are causing a good deal of discontent and heart-burning in the Regular Army. Were the Regular Army up to establishment, they would have no difficulty in dealing with that problem, but, as they are below establishment, they will have a good deal of difficulty. I sympathise with them.
Again, because of the shortage of Regulars and because of the messing about with the National Service scheme, which never made complete sense since it was cut down to twelve months, difficulties have arisen over that scheme. We do not know whether the period of twelve months is enough or too much or too little, or whether it will answer its purpose. As I see it, that is all because political considerations have taken
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priority over technical considerations. Again, because of the failure to grip the administration of the Territorial Army—I will not go into all this again—and to deal with the premises, we cannot be certain that the Territorial Army will be there to play their part in 1950. And, because of all this, the Army (whether the Regular Army or the Territorial Army) are not going to be the support of the foreign policy of the Government which they ought to be and which they can be made to be. Here, I come to another point. I am not going to speak about Civil Defence, because I believe that we may be having a debate on that subject in your Lordships' House before very long. However, I notice that the Territorial Army were described the other day as being a reinforcement to Home Defence, with mobile columns. Here I must ask if the Government have made quite certain that they are not counting the Territorial Army twice over, first, as a Home Defence Force and, secondly, as an Expeditionary Force, because that might happen quite easily.
I have painted rather a gloomy picture, but I do not think it is really too bad. Nor do I think that, however gloomily I have painted the picture, the remedies are not perfectly possible, and possible fairly quickly. But they are not possible unless those who are in authority are prepared to pay for what is necessary. I know it is very odd from these Benches to advocate increased expenditure. I would not be doing that. What I am saying is that I am not at all sure that we are making the best use of our expenditure. Many of my friends have said that, too, in different places. I do not think that we are making the best use of the expenditure on the Forces, nor do I think that the present expenditure on the Forces is having anything like the proper priority that it should have as compared with other things that are not so necessary or vital to national defence. I do not think you will ever get the Regular soldier you want if you leave Army pay fixed after, shall we say, agricultural wages have risen twice by ten shillings a time. It does not make sense. I do not think you will ever get the Territorial problem right until the Government accept and implement the principle that no one must be out of pocket as a result of Territorial Army service.

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It is not an easy question. We talk a great deal about patriotism—and so we should, because, of course, patriotism, the spirit of public service, is the real thing, and people will join up as volunteers in the Territorial Army if they are right-minded. But I put it to the noble Earl opposite that that is not the primary concern of His Majesty's Government. The primary concern of His Majesty's Government is to see that patriotism is not taxed. At the present time patriotism is a luxury, in the sense that when everybody is taxed more than he was before the war, when people have a harder time at home than before the war, when perhaps they have to work harder in their businesses, it is not so easy as it was to spend the time away from one's family or away from one's business to do Territorial work. Nor can one afford to pay the money which before the war people paid quite gladly out of their taxed incomes.
Let me give you an example. Supposing that before the war a Territorial officer, shivering in a Territorial building, decided to buy an electric fire (which many people did), he bought it out of his taxed income, taxation on which might have averaged out at 3s. or 4s. in the £. Now he has to buy it out of income on which taxes average about 7s. in the£ and, in addition, pay purchase tax on the article. That is only one example. Let us take petrol. I may be like the White Queen, crying before I am hurt, but are noble Lords quite certain that when the rules for standard petrol come out, and when everybody understands them (which I think will be a long time to come), the Territorial officer will not find that the petrol he claims for Territorial purposes is set off against his standard ration, so that his wife cannot take a motoring holiday, while the wife of the next-door neighbour who does not belong to the T.A. can? I may be entirely wrong, and I only hope that I may be reassured about that. Until then I am not convinced.
Meanwhile, as I say, that policy or that principle, that Territorial service must cost the volunteer nothing, must be implemented quickly. If this is a Government matter, and not a private matter for the War Office, then it will not be difficult. Before the war, when the Territorial Army had a period of high importance, when Mr. Hore-Belisha was Secretary of State for War, everybody knew that the Territorial
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Army must be well treated; and it was well treated. Is the present time less important than that? Is the Territorial Army less deserving than it was of what was done for it then, or is it a War Office rule to do as I believe they have done—namely, to describe the Belisha barrack schedules as luxury standards? I do not know. But I suggest that what was right then is right now, and I suggest that the sooner we get to work on those lines, the sooner the Army will come right; and the longer we leave it, the worse will be the mess from which the Government will have to disentangle themselves.
6.15 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I must first apologise to the House because I am deputising for my noble friend Lord Pakenham, the recognised authority on this Front Bench on the Army. As the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, remarked, he is possessed of excessive youthfulness—a state of life that certainly has its disadvantages—and he snapped his Achilles tendon towards the end of last week. I am sure that my noble friend will be extremely grateful for the expressions of sympathy that have come from different quarters of the House, and I will see that they are conveyed to him. I understand he will resume some of his duties, although still on crutches, towards the end of this week. I must ask your Lordships' indulgence for myself, because I lack my noble friend's experience of the War Office and because I am stepping into the gap at rather short notice.
I am sure your Lordships would wish me, on behalf of the Government, to associate myself with what the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and other noble Lords have said by way of welcome to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Wilson, on his first contribution to a debate in this House. Your Lordships will remember that the noble Lord has a most distinguished record in two world wars. In the last war he was successively Commander-in-Chief in the Middle East, Supreme Allied Commander in the Mediterranean, and our representative as head of the Joint Staff Mission in Washington. We are all most grateful to the noble Lord, speaking as he does from his remarkable background of public service, for his willingness to share in the work of this House,

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and I hope that this will be the first of a number of occasions on which we shall have the benefit of his assistance and advice. Of course, we agree with what the noble Lord said about the essential requirements of the Territorial Army, if it is to reach the high standard of efficiency that we desire—namely, that it must have sufficient time for training and the necessary financial backing. We also agree with the noble Lord on the vital importance of the cadet movement and all forms of pre-Service training. We are giving, and shall continue to give, all the help we can for the support and encouragement of this work. I will certainly direct the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War to what the noble Lord said on this subject.
We in this country are a peace-loving people. The noble Earl, Lord Wavell, in his welcome contribution to this debate, described us as "a peace-loving and un-militaristic country." Indeed, we ask for nothing so much as to be allowed to pursue our peaceful avocations, without being disturbed or distracted or interfered with by anyone. We want to enjoy our democratic way of life, undisturbed by war or the fear of war. But if we look round quite dispassionately at the state of the world to-day, I think few of us would be optimistic enough to maintain that the outlook is reassuring. Indeed, it must be obvious to any impartial person that the need for insuring ourselves against the risk of war is no less urgent now than it has been in any previous period in our history. Moreover, we know from all our past experience that preparedness is itself one of the most effective safeguards against aggression. We are living in dangerous times, and the Army has an indispensable part to play in our national defence.
Some critics lead people to think that Armies are an old fashioned weapon which has been superseded by Air Forces. I believe this to be a most unfortunate and misleading error. The rôle of the Army to-day is vastly more important than it has ever been in the past. Up till now it has been sufficient for the Army to carry out police and garrison duties overseas in peace time and to provide a relatively small striking force on the outbreak of war. That has been the rôle of the Army in our system of national defence in the past. In any future war,
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however, the Army will have to take from the outset a leading part in the defence of our island.
I wish that it were generally realised—because I do not think that everyone by any means recognises the change—that the British Army in any future war will, in the main, be the Territorial Army; that is to say, a citizen army with a volunteer nucleus to teach and lead those who have had only their period of National Service training. The military strength of this country, therefore, will consist in the main of its trained Reserves, while the Regular Army will be a considerably smaller part of our total land forces. I agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, said to the effect that we shall have one Army instead of two, the Territorial Army and the Regular Army forming together a carefully integrated whole. And, of course, one of the main functions of the Regular Army in future will be to provide for the training of men in the Territorial Army. It will be seen from this that the parts played by the Regular Army and the Territorial Army, as compared with their rôles before the last war and earlier, have altered out of all recognition. Another and new feature is that the Territorial Army of to-morrow will have to be in a state of readiness for early action on the outbreak of war. At the start of another war, there will be no delay of months, or even of weeks, during which the Regulars will hold off the enemy while the Territorials are finishing their training. The Army as a whole must be prepared and ready for instant action.
This conception, as I realise, is familiar to many of your Lordships, but I make no apology for repeating and emphasising it this afternoon, because it is of the utmost importance that it should become a matter of common knowledge, widely understood, outside the walls of this House, among all these who have any part to play in making a success of the new Territorial Army—and, indeed, among the general public as a whole. It is in the light of this appreciation of the vital rôle of the Territorial Army in our system of national defence that the question of voluntary recruitment must be viewed, and I should like to give your Lordships, as it were, a progress report. During last May, the first month of recruiting

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for the Territorial Army, over 3,300 officers and 10,800 other ranks came forward to join. Since then, the rate of recruiting has fallen, until during January and February of this year a total of only some 460 officers and 3,300 other ranks joined. At the end of February, the total strength of the Territorial Army was approximately 42,000 male officers and other ranks and 6,250 women officers and other ranks.
Now I should like to say, taking advantage of this opportunity, how greatly the Government appreciate the spirit and example of the volunteers who have already come forward for service. But it must be admitted quite frankly, and I hope that it will be generally realised, that the present rate of recruitment is not nearly good enough. To allow the cadre to be properly trained by the time the National Service men start to arrive in the Territorial Army on January 1, 1950, it is essential that the voluntary element of the Territorial Army which is to form this cadre must be recruited up to the required strength by the beginning of April, 1949—just about a year hence. The volunteer strength which will ultimately be required when the Territorial Army reaches its full size is estimated to be approximately 150,000. Now—and this is a serious deduction to be drawn from the present flow of recruitment—at the present rate of recruitment a further 22,000 men may be expected to join the Territorial Army between now and April, 1949, making a total volunteer strength at that date of some 60,000, or less than half the total which the military experts and advisers consider ultimately necessary. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, said to the effect that if we continue to recruit men at this pace and in these numbers we cannot possibly reach our target. I should like, if I may, to congratulate him on the realistic grasp of the deplorable state of recruitment which was shown in his speech, and also on his intelligent anticipation of its effect, unless the drift is arrested, on the efficiency of the Army. It is vitally important to obtain the bulk of these volunteers within the next twelve months, in order that the training which they have received during the war, during their military service, may not have been forgotten before they join the Territorial
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Army. I believe that no one who realises the facts will have any illusions about the present situation or its seriousness. That is the first step, I think, towards finding the proper remedy.
Now let me tell your Lordships what the Government propose to do. As some of your Lordships are already aware, we propose that a full-scale recruiting campaign shall be opened in the autumn. We must make a success of this campaign. Its planning has been nearly completed by the Army Council. Unless the campaign meets with a very great measure of success the Territorial Army will not have a sufficiently large volunteer element to form the basis on which the National Service Reserve Army can be built. Volunteers will be essential, both at the beginning, when the first National Service men join the Territorial Army, and later when they will make up the bulk of it. Volunteers are needed to assist in training, to act as leaders, and to help to provide the spirit that is required for the high morale of the new Territorial Army. We hope that the recognition of this tremendous responsibility will reconcile all those who propose to offer their services, or who have done so, to serving, as they have not done in the past, with National Service recruits. Our Territorial Army must be the equal of any other citizen army anywhere else in the world. We want to make it second to none. The Government are determined that in so far as lies within their power it shall achieve this pitch of efficiency. It is all the more necessary that we should face the possibility that it can be a failure if volunteers do not come forward in sufficient numbers.
It is only natural that after six years of war, during which a large proportion of the male population and a considerable number of women served for long periods in the Armed Forces, there should be an overwhelming desire on the part of many to settle down in their homes, and to have no more to do with military service. This feeling is widespread, and one can certainly understand it. Volunteers, both men and women, are urgently needed, in order to maintain the efficiency of our national defence, and everything must be done to encourage them to come forward. I am afraid that I am not in a position this afternoon to announce the details of the autumn recruiting campaign. I have already said that the plan

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of campaign is nearing the stage of completion. Your Lordships may be assured, however, that we shall announce our decision on this matter at the earliest possible moment. We intend to build up the effort devoted to recruiting throughout the year until the full-scale campaign can start in force in the autumn. I can tell your Lordships that it is our intention to appoint a central committee to direct the campaign and local committees to run it in each Command. The constitution of these committees has not yet been finally settled, but it is our intention to take every opportunity to associate both employers and trade unions with the running of the campaign. The active co-operation of both partners is essential if the campaign is to be a success. I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft and other noble Lords raised this point, and I hope that I have said enough to satisfy them that the Government fully appreciate its importance. I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, for the support he promised for this recruiting campaign. It ought to be a national and non-Party effort, and it will require for its success the active help of men and women of good will in all Parties in all parts of the country.
One of the most difficult and vital problems to be met in reconstituting the Territorial Army is that of accommodation. That has been reiterated again and again this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Middleton, has laid special emphasis on the problem of providing suitable accommodation. The Territorial Army will be greatly increased in size, as compared with the pre-war Territorial Army, and for various reasons not all the accommodation which was used before the war is now available. Moreover, whereas before the war Territorial Army units could be located where the necessary facilities could be provided, it will now be necessary to have Territorial Army units all over the country. Adequate accommodation is essential, not only for successful recruiting, but also for effective training. This is a matter to which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War has been giving close attention. As the result of measures which he is proposing to take, he is hopeful that the situation will be materially improved, and that commands and Territorial
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and Auxiliary Forces associations will be enabled to purchase or lease suitable existing property and to acquire sites for the erection of temporary hutted accommodation. This is a matter of great urgency, for without satisfactory accommodation, as the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, clearly indicated, the Territorial Army will not be ready to receive the National Service men when they are due to join in 1950.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I apologise for interrupting the noble Earl, but I would like to stress the point that the matter is of great urgency. I would remind the noble Earl of what Lord Middleton said, that the matter was urgently pressed at a conference in 1947. If the matter is as urgent as all that, I should have thought the noble Earl's colleague would be able to make an announcement.
LORD O'HAGAN: I would like to reinforce what the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, has said. I also hope he noble Earl will be able to say something with regard to the particular point that I raised as to the amount of money associations and commands are themselves allowed to spend without direct authorisation from the War Office.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Without questioning the undoubted right of noble Lords to pull me up, I think, if they had allowed me to finish what I had to say on this subject, they would have found some of their doubts removed. I was saying that there is no time to lose in this matter of seeing that suitable and necessary accommodation is available. We intend that measures for speeding up the acquisition of land and property shall be put into effect very shortly. I can say now that proposals to hasten the acquisition procedure will be published in the near future. I hope this announcement, which I think indicates that the necessary decisions have already been taken, will satisfy both noble Lords that the Government for some time past have been giving this matter anxious consideration. We intend to give these associations the powers they must have in order to discharge their function. The need for powers to enable the authorities to provide accommodation for permanent staff by building or lease or purchase is rot being forgotten. This is all the more

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important because a contented and enthusiastic permanent staff can make a great contribution to the success and efficiency of the Territorial Army.
As regards equipment, the position in the infantry, R.A.C. and R.A. units is generally satisfactory, except for certain anti-aircraft equipment. Units have all the equipment they require for training and are in a position to store and maintain their equipment. In some specialist units the situation is not so good. There is a shortage of some items because materials to produce them would have to come from civilian supplies. Contrary to what I think is a popular belief, large war stocks on which it is possible to draw are no longer held. A great deal of equipment used during the war was American, obtained by Lend-Lease, and much of it is no longer available. Moreover, there is a large amount of technical equipment in workshops awaiting renovation. The shortage of experienced R.E.M.E. personnel to undertake the renovation of this equipment is holding up the supply to units. Everything possible is being done to remove these difficulties, but I mention them to show that there are good reasons why it is not yet possible to meet in full the requirements of all units.
Your Lordships are fully aware of the importance of the annual camp in Territorial Army training. Our intention this year is to hold camps of eight days' duration for all units, except anti-aircraft units which, in view of their specialist nature, require camps of fifteen days' duration. It is essential that the administration of these camps, and the training carried out in them, should be of an extremely high standard, and every effort is now being made to ensure that they will be efficiently and well run. I should like to say a few words about the question of time off for attendance at camp. It is, I think, generally agreed that the Government's policy in this matter as regards their own employees is calculated to set a good example to private employers. All civil servants who volunteer for the Territorial Army will be granted extra leave to attend camp and will receive their ordinary civil pay for the whole or part of this extra leave, depending on the amount of ordinary paid annual leave to which they are entitled. The Bank of England and the Civil Aviation
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Corporations are making broadly similar arrangements. The Government are extremely anxious that employers generally shall encourage employees to join the Territorial Army and that no obstacle shall be put in the way of annual attendance at camp, in addition to the paid annual holiday. It is hoped that as many employers as possible will grant extra paid leave for this purpose, although we are bound to appreciate that this is not practicable in every case, and must depend, as it often does, on financial circumstances.
We are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for initiating this debate to-day. I have already mentioned some of the points which he emphasised in the course of his speech. I should like now to reply briefly to another suggestion he made. This was to the effect that it should be possible to make use as a Reserve of the larger number of trained men released from the Army since the end of the war. This is the position. All men released since the beginning of the release scheme are released to Class Z or Class W of the Army Reserve and remain in the Reserve until the statutory end of the emergency. A proportion of these men would certainly have to be recalled if any situation were to arise of sufficient gravity to justify such a course. There might, however, be considerable practical difficulties involved in the recall of such men to the Colours. Almost all men released have by now become absorbed in industry, and many of them are in occupations which would no doubt be reserved in the event of war.
The total number of men released from the Army, therefore, although constituting a valuable reservoir of men who have been trained, is in no sense on the immediately available Reserve as a whole, and recall to the Colours would probably have to be selective if serious disruption of industry were to be avoided. On any large scale call-up re-registration through Ministry of Labour channels would probably be necessary. In the event of any early emergency, we should naturally, in any rapid expansion of our Forces, be forced to rely largely on men who served in the recent war. But on the longer term—and we are taking the longer-term view—we can rely progressively less and less on this source, although it is indeed desirable and

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essential that adequate numbers of these men should join the Territorial Army. Therefore, as time passes, we shall have to look more and more to the National Service men who join the Territorial Army on completion of their year's full-time service.
The noble Viscount, Lord Long—whose enthusiasm for the Territorial Army is well known to your Lordships—made a number of points of which he gave me notice. I will try to deal with some of them, although I cannot deal with more than a few without exceeding the time which I think your Lordships would consider I should occupy in the course of my speech. He suggested that the age of entry to the Territorial Army should be reduced from 18 to 17. We have gone into that question very carefully, and the conclusion at which we have arrived is that a youth of 17 should join the Cadet Force rather than the Territorial Army. I think the view of the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, bore out the importance which ought to be attached to the rôle of the Cadet Force in training young people of that age.
The noble Viscount also asked whether guidance could be given about the proportion of the ultimate strengths of units which it is considered desirable to fill, if possible, by voluntary recruitment. I am afraid that this is a matter on which it is impossible to lay down any general principles. The explanation of that is simple. The most desirable proportion is bound to vary according to the methods of the commanding officer and the location and rôle of the unit. For example, a widely dispersed unit will require a bigger cadre than a concentrated unit. A highly technical unit will require a higher percentage of instructors than a comparatively non-technical unit. It is considered that the ultimate strengths of volunteers in units should be as large as possible, and voluntary recruiting is, therefore, unrestricted. If any unit has so many volunteers that in the course of time the total strength of the unit is likely to be unacceptable from the point of taking in its quota of National Service men, such a unit will be informed by the officer in charge of records, and voluntary recruiting to that unit will be restricted or suspended, according to the circumstances. That seems to be the obvious procedure. With all the available information
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about recruitment, I certainly do not think that we need be too concerned about that eventuality at the moment. What we must do now is to increase the number of volunteers by every means in our power.
I should like to reply to some of the points that have been raised by other noble Lords in the course of the debate. I cannot reply to more than a few, both because without notice I am really in a great difficulty, and because so many points have been raised that I must be careful not to exceed a reasonable amount of time. The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, suggested that the application of a London Territorial regiment to line the route for the Silver Wedding Procession on April 26 should be accepted. The noble Marquess went so far as to say that the refusal to accept this application was a senseless refusal, and that no reasonable argument had been used when it was turned down. The lining of this route is going to be done by units of the Regular Army. That is because it is taking place on an ordinary week-day (Monday, April 26) and we do not want to disturb industry more than we can possibly avoid. We therefore consider that, from the point of view of the broadest national interests, it is desirable that this work should be carried out by units of the Regular Army.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: Does that mean that no Territorials are to be allowed to take part?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: There is one exception, the H.A.C., who are to form a guard of honour. But I understand this is a traditional right and, therefore, there is a particular ground for excepting that unit from the general rule. The noble Marquess also asked me about the requisitioning of drill halls by Government Departments. I understand the position is this. Out of a total of some 1,400 drill halls in the country, only five are row occupied by other Departments, and of these it is hoped that two will be released within the next few months. I think these figures indicate that the Government are not the villain of the piece in preventing drill halls from being used for the training of the Army. Another question raised by the noble Marquess was on the subject of the Pioneer Corps. I understand that the Royal Pioneer Corps is to be allowed to run down, and from the beginning of

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next year no fresh men will be posted to it. Only a small cadre will be kept in being as a basis for expansion as and when the need arises. There will, therefore, be no requirement for Pioneers in the Territorial Army.
Both the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and the noble Lord, Lord Middleton, raised what I think is an extremely important point in relation to the Territorial Army, arising from the state of completion of the order of battle by the Army as a whole. They maintain that it is impossible to take any firm decisions about the disposition or function of units of the Territorial Army while the order of battle of the Army remains unsettled. I am authorised to say that the order of battle of the Army has reached a stage at which it is possible to take decisions about the function and disposition of units of the Territorial Army. I will read the words in my brief, because on a matter of this kind one wants to be accurate. I am entitled to say that plans for the size and establishment of the post-war Army have now reached a stage at which the necessary decisions regarding the part to be played by the Territorial Army can be taken.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: But not the decisions for the Regular Army yet?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: No. AS I understand the information that has been made available to me, the order of battle has not yet reached finality. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, raised a number of points and I should like to say, I am afraid, rather firmly, that I cannot agree with him that no improvement in the recruiting and organisation of the Territorial Army has been made since the last debate upon this subject took place in this House. I hope that what I have said has shown that progress has been made, although it has certainly not been nearly so rapid as we, or any of your Lordships, would have desired.
The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, towards the end of his speech raised another point about the petrol ration which has been allowed—I imagine it is a supplementary ration—to officers in the Territorial Army in the discharge of their duties. He fears that they may be deprived of this ration when the standard ration is restored. I can assure him that
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I will ask my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War to take up this point most urgently with the Ministry of Fuel and Power, and I hope that his fears may have no foundation. I appreciate, of course, the difficulties that would ensue if these officers were no longer to enjoy the ration which they have at the moment for official purposes.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: May I interrupt the noble Earl one moment? I am afraid that I did not make my point quite clear when I originally spoke. I feared that the additional allowance which a Territorial officer might have for discharging his duties would be set against the standard allowance, so that, in the result, officers and their families would have less petrol for private motoring than they would have done if the men had not joined the Territorial Army. If the noble Earl would bring that to the notice of his colleagues I would be most grateful.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Of course, if the supplementary allowance were reduced by the amount of the standard ration they would cancel out. If the amount of the supplementary allowance were reduced by a lesser amount, then the man would still be in an unfavourable position in relation to the standard ration. Clearly, neither position is desirable, and I will see that the matter is taken up in the proper quarter.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: I am much obliged to the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Whatever else I may have left unsaid in the course of my remarks, I hope that I have made this one point quite clear. The Territorial Army of the future, to which the Government attach the greatest importance, will constitute the bulk of our national Army, upon which the task of land fighting in another war will devolve. It cannot rely on any breathing space after the outbreak of war in which to make itself efficient. If it is to be in a position to reach in peace time the high standard of efficiency which is essential for it in its key position in our system of national defence, a greatly increased number of volunteers are urgently needed. The Government are most anxious that this should be fully appreciated by those upon whom the success of the forthcoming recruiting campaign will depend.

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We are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for initiating this debate. It is particularly well timed; it has come just a year after the last debate in this House upon this subject. It has enabled us to survey a progress report on what has been achieved since the last debate, and it has also enabled us to re-examine and reconsider policy in the light of our urgent national needs. We have had a large number of extremely instructive and informative contributions, and I can assure all noble Lords who have spoken that what they have said will be most carefully weighed and considered by the responsible authorities. I must apologise for not having replied to a number of questions that were addressed to me, but I can tell those noble Lords who have not received an answer that any question of which they have given me notice, and to which I have not replied, will receive a written answer at the earliest possible moment.
6.57 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am sure I shall be speaking on behalf of all your Lordships if I extend our warm thanks to the noble Earl for the stout-hearted way in which he tackled a difficult job. I think he acquitted himself nobly, with his usual painstaking care and skill, begotten by his career in the Intelligence Corps, coupled, if I may say so, with a most praiseworthy lack of complacency about some of the problems with which we are faced. He could not have attempted to answer the large number of questions which were tossed at him across the floor of the House this afternoon, and I do not think any noble Lord speaking for the Government could have done so. But he could not possibly have complained that he did not have notice. Indeed, he and his colleagues have been given notice for about two years now. They are well aware of the difficulties, and it is not from lack of representation in this House.
I would like, in the short time that I wish to take up, to refer to only two points. The first is the one point in the noble Earl's speech which I thought was unsatisfactory. It is only a small point, but I am not at all happy about the remarks he made about the lining of the streets. I think the noble Marquess,
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Lord Reading, said that it involved ten men and one officer. Of course, we appreciate that men must not be taken away from factories and from important work, but I understand that these men volunteered and were prepared to go. I know that it will take trouble to organise, but refusal to allow that is the sort of thing which infuriates the Territorial Army. I beg the noble Earl to ask his right honourable friend to reconsider the position. If there are men who can do it without interfering with more important tasks, their request should be granted.
I welcomed the noble Earl's remarks about the recruiting campaign. It will achieve even more success if certain of the grievances which have been ventilated this afternoon are put right before the campaign is initiated. We assure the noble Earl and the Government that we will do everything in our power to make it a success. A success it must be, for one cannot have two recruiting campaigns. If one is a failure, one cannot hold another. I think it has been made clear by all my noble friends who have supported me, and certainly by the noble Earl who replied, that it must succeed. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from: That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for Additional Provision in the Smethwick Corporation Bill, ought to be dispensed with: Read and agreed to.

WALLASEY GAS ORDER, 1948.
WALLINGFORD GAS ORDER, 1948.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petitions have been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at seven o'clock.