Sitting of 8 April 1948

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SMETHWICK CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOUSING

    Furnished Houses (Rent Control)
    Mr. Baker Whiteasked the Minister of Health for what reason he has issued instructions to his Regional Housing Officers to supplement, by delegation of the power to requisition, the provisions of the Furnished Houses (Rent Control) Act, 1946; and whether he will publish these instructions.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): No such instructions have been issued.
    Mr. Baker White: Is the Minister aware that his own regional officer has stated in a letter, of which I will give him a copy, that such instructions have been issued, and that that is why I ask this Question, because there seems to be some conflict on this matter?
    Mr. Bevan: Steps have been taken in individual cases, but no general instructions have been issued.
    Mr. Hollisasked the Minister of Health whether he will increase the three months period of security of tenure guaranteed to a tenant after he has brought his grievance before a rent tribunal.
    Mr. Bevan: This would require legislation of which there is no early prospect.
    Mr. Shurmer: Is the Minister aware that the tribunals served a good purpose in the
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    early days; that owing to the fact that so many evictions were being applied for by landlords, they are holding back at the present time; and that in cities like Birmingham the difficulty is that many thousands of evictions are taking place as a result?
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, but a very large number of references are still made to the tribunals, which is evidence of the fact that they are still of very considerable value. I have always said that it is undesirable to tie tenant and landlord for too long a period, otherwise it means that sufficient furnished accommodation would not be made available.
    Dr. Segal: Is the Minister aware that very strong feeling exists in the country on this subject, and that in some parts of the country the existing regulations actually defeat the whole purpose for which these tribunals were set up?
    Mr. Bevan: I am aware that in some instances abuse does take place, and I am seriously considering how it can be dealt with. As I explained earlier, in reply to a previous Question, requisitioning of premises is sometimes used.
    Mr. Hollis: Could the Minister be a little more specific when he says that legislation is required, that there is no prospect of legislation, yet he is seriously considering how to deal with this problem?
    Mr. Bevan: I have already said, in answer to a previous Question, that in some instances, where the abuse is gross, requisitioning powers have been used.
    Mr. Derek Walker-Smith: Would the Minister bear in mind, if and when this Act calls for amendment, that there are many other matters which experience shows call for amendment; and would he also bear in mind the adverse effect on the relationship of landlord and tenant occasioned in cases where the local authority makes a reference without the initiative or, indeed, against the will of the tenant concerned?
    Mr. Bevan: That is another matter.

    Rural Workers, Cheshire
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Health how many cottages for farm workers are being erected in Cheshire during 1948; and what progress is being made.
    Mr. Bevan: I regret that information in this form is not available. Tenants are not chosen until houses are near completion.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the Minister realise that his answer will give great disappointment in Cheshire; and will he try to give this information, so that farmers can look ahead and plan their farming?
    Mr. Bevan: As I say, it is not possible for me to say how many houses are set aside for agricultural workers until rural authorities themselves have awarded the tenancies. I am not a clairvoyant.

    Non-Traditional Houses (Capital Grants)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Health why subsidies to figures acceptable to local authorities for nontraditional houses have increased from about £6 million in 1947–48 to about £17 million for this year; and before implementing this policy, will he consider saving this cost by building brick houses for which ample supplies of labour, bricks, cement and timber are now available.
    Mr. Bevan: The capital grant is restricted by statute to houses in schemes approved before 31st December, 1947. No programmes for non-traditional houses approved since that date will, therefore, qualify for grant. The total cost of the capital grants is estimated at £51½ million for 1947–48, and at £13,600,000 for 1948–49.. The grant is payable on the completion of the houses, and the increase in the estimates is due to the fact that more of these houses are now being completed than in 1947.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the Minister aware that his policy of concentrating all production on non-traditional houses, which can only be temporary houses, is ruining the building industry for traditional houses which are of a permanent character?
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Member is wrong in both respects.
    Sir W. Smithers: No, he is not.
    Mr. Bevan: Most of the non-traditional houses are permanent. With regard to the second part of the Question, these
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    houses were put in hand whilst the traditional industry was being built up. Now that it has been built up, further approval of extra grants for non-traditional houses has ceased.

    Programme
    Mrs. Jean Mannasked the Minister of Health what estimate he has made of the number of houses required to give a separate dwelling to each family; and how far the building programme has advanced in respect to it.
    Mr. Bevan: As has been stated on several occasions, the last Government and this Government agreed, in 1945, that 750,000 new dwellings are needed to give a separate home to every family in the country. The progress made up to 29th February last is shown in the monthly housing return issued last week.
    Mrs. Mann: Does my right hon. Friend think that he may reach that target of 750,000 this year?
    Mr. Bevan: I confidently expect that the first target will be reached by the end of the year, but I am not satisfied that 750,000 is itself a fully reliable figure. Towards the end of the year, I hope that the local authorities will comb their lists so that we have a realistic picture of what the needs will be.
    Mr. Granville Sharp: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the figures he has given take full account of the need to provide new houses for people living in sadly overcrowded conditions, and whether, in framing these estimates, he took into account the requirements of the 1936 Act before people can be regarded as living under overcrowded conditions?
    Mr. Bevan: We inherited this figure, as well as this problem, from the previous Government. We are hoping to reduce the figure at the end of the year, when it will be possible for us to appreciate what the situation may he. Very substantial relief is being given each month.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Can the Minister say whether the confidence he has expressed is of the same convincing quality as that which he expressed when introducing the Furnished Houses (Rent Control) Act, 1945, when he gave the end of 1947 as his date for the expectation of the solution of the housing problem?
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Member's recollection is, as usual, grossly inaccurate.
    Mr. Assheton: Does not the Minister think that the time has come when it is possible to take some further steps towards reconditioning rural properties?
    Mr. Bevan: Reconditioning of rural houses must still take second place to the provision of new houses, but the matter of reconditioning is, of course, under consideration. I think hon. Members opposite will agree that it is still necessary to use all the resources of the rural areas to provide new accommodation.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware of the very adverse effect that the increased interest rate is going to have on local authorities in the building of houses?
    Mr. Bevan: There is no evidence whatever that the increased interest rate has prevented the building of a single house.
    Mrs. Mann: Will my right hon. Friend say whether the total of 750,000 estimated by the Caretaker Government of 1945 includes the 500,000 Portal houses promised, and how many Portal houses have been delivered?
    Mr. Bevan: I would hesitate at this stage to reflect upon that melancholy history.

  LOCAL AUTHORITIES STAFFS (REDUCTION)
  Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Health by what measures it is expected to reduce the numbers employed in local government by 30,000 during 1948, as forecast in the Economic Survey for 1948.
  Mr. Bevan: I am in consultation with the Associations of Local Authorities in this matter.
  Mr. Swingler: In view of the unexpectedly large, though, perhaps, inevitable increase of 50,000 in local government staffs in 1947, is the Minister considering some directive to local authorities on this matter?
  Mr. Bevan: I have no power directly to interfere, concerning the number of staffs employed by local authorities, and I should prefer to try to effect reductions by co-operation.
  Mr. Butcher: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider reducing the number of requests made by his Department to the local authorities for returns, and thus enable them to reduce their staffs?
  Mr. Bevan: It would mean that I should not be able to answer so many questions by hon. Members opposite.

  REGISTRATION OFFICERS (SALARIES)
  Mr. Draysonasked the Minister of Health if he has now considered a resolution sent him by the registration officers of the North-West Districts of England and Wales protesting at the protracted delay in dealing with their application for an increase in their pre-war basic salaries; and what answer he has made.
  Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir. A reply has been sent explaining that new scales of salary cannot become operative except by a formal amendment of the statutory scheme in force in each area. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the letter which was sent in reply to the resolution.
  Squadron-Leader Fleming: Will the Minister tell us whether a decision, when made, will be retrospective?
  Mr. Bevan: I could not say offhand.

  DAY NURSERIES (COTTON INDUSTRY)
  Mr. Sutcliffeasked the Minister of Health what funds are available to local authorities for the provision of additional day nurseries to encourage a return to the cotton industry.
  Mr. Bevan: I think the best way is to send the hon. Member a copy of my Department's circular in which the financial arangements are fully explained.
  Mr. Sutcliffe: As the tendency has been to close rather than to open day nurseries, will the Minister give any encouragement to local authorities to open them to help women who go to work in the cotton industry?
  Mr. Bevan: There is a much larger number of these nurseries now being opened by the local authorities and by the factories themselves.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the nurseries to be open another 45 minutes, to enable women working in industry to put in full time to qualify for all the benefits of their employment?
  Mr. Bevan: Certainly, I will consider that.

  PUBLIC HEALTH

    Maternity Accommodation, Amersham
    Sir Stanley Reedasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the serious shortage of accommodation for maternity cases in the Amersham area, intensified by the closing of the Home at Shardloes; and whether measures are being taken to relieve the situation.
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir. I am consulting with the Regional Hospital Board and the County Council on the matter.
    Sir S. Reed: Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly regard this matter as very urgent, because since the closing of Shardloes the position has become almost desperate?
    Mr. Bevan: It is always an urgent matter when a maternity home closes down because of lack of staff, and I invite the co-operation of everybody in order to try to get staffs brought up to the necessary strength.

    Medical and Dental Students (Training Facilities)
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Health what steps is he taking to increase the facilities for the training of medical and dental students; and is it his intention to encourage the setting up of new medical and dental schools.
    Mr. Bevan: I have invited the universities and medical and dental schools, as the responsible authorities, to consider the relevant recommendations of the Goodenough and Teviot Committees. Facilities are being extended within the limits of the available resources.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Would the right hon. Gentleman ask the university colleges and technical colleges that are able to set up technical schools also to consider the reports, and to make recommendations to him?
    Mr. Bevan: Only where there are university facilities in the locality.

    Infant Mortality
    Mr. Draysonasked the Minister of Health how many areas in the British Isles have shown an increase in the mortality rate for children under one year of age for 1947 over 1946.
    Mr. Bevan: I regret that this information is not yet available. The figures are expected soon after the middle of the year.
    Mr. Drayson: Can the Minister say from any preliminary figures he has seen whether the increase of 9.2 at Dumbarton Burghs, which has been described as "alarming," will be general throughout the country?
    Mr. Bevan: I have seen no such figure, and it would be very unwise to alarm anyone by giving such provisional figures.

    Water Supply, Althorne
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that a number of permanent residents and holiday campers at Althorne, Essex, who have been accustomed for many years, on payment to the railway company of 5s. a year, to obtain their supply of water from a tap at Althorne station, have been notified that this facility is to end on 24th April; and if he will take steps to ensure that an adequate supply of water is made available to them by that date.
    Mr. Bevan: I am informed that the Maldon Rural District Council are arranging for a supply of water to be continued to the permanent residents after that date. As regards the holiday campers, I am in communication with the Council, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result of my inquiries.
    Mr. Driberg: Since it is unlikely that any satisfactory main water supply can be laid on at this particular site, does my right hon. Friend envisage a water cart, or something like that, as a satisfactory semi-permanent solution; or would he consider approaching the British Railways and asking them to continue or to improve the present arrangement?
    Mr. Bevan: I shall not approach the railway until it becomes necessary.

  COAST EROSION (SURVEY REPORT)
  Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Health if the experts appointed by him to make a survey of the coast of Great Britain in relation to the problem of erosion have yet completed their report; and whether it is his intention to publish such report.
  Mr. Bevan: I received the report in the autumn of 1946; it is not proposed to publish it.
  Brigadier Medlicott: Would the Minister be prepared to reconsider that decision, in view of the very wide interest that is shown in all parts of the country in this matter, and the difficulties we have in answering questions raised by local authorities in the absence of any information as to what is the overall picture?
  Mr. Bevan: The survey was a rapid one and was made only in order to provide a rough estimate of what was involved. It was not intended at the time to publish it. The survey would have been of a different kind and much more detailed if it had been intended to publish it.
  Brigadier Medlicott: Is the Minister prepared to consider making such a survey as will be capable of being published?
  Mr. Bevan: We are, of course, as the hon. and gallant Member knows, taking action in emergency cases, and we hope to take action in the not very distant future on a more general scale, but I should not like now to initiate another survey.
  Commander Maitland: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House if he will bring in legislation soon to clear up the whole of this difficult situation?
  Mr. Bevan: I am afraid that is a matter that will have to be left to the King's Speech at the opening of Parliament.
  Mr. Baker Whiteasked the Minister of Health on what grounds he has refused to make a grant to the Urban District Council of Herne Bay for purposes of coast protection, seeing that the said authority has fulfilled his two requirements, namely that they have been undertaken since V.J.-Day, and are of pressing urgency.
  Mr. Bevan: I do not consider that the annual rate burden in respect of the works undertaken since V.J.-Day is heavy enough to make assistance necessary.
  Mr. Baker White: Is the Minister aware that in the Studd Hill area of Herne Bay houses are falling into the sea, that the roads and sewers are fractured, that this situation has gone on for about two and a half years, and that the cost is much greater than the local authority can possibly bear?
  Mr. Bevan: With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, that situation has existed on some parts of the coast for very many years without exciting any indignation on the other side of the House. With regard to the latter part of the question, we are not proposing to relieve local authorities entirely of the rate burden involved. In this case the rate burden is not excessive.
  Major Tufton Beamish: Does not this Question underline the urgent necessity for early legislation dealing with the whole question of coast erosion?
  Mr. Bevan: It has been urgent for 30 years. I have already informed local authorities, as hon. Members know, that emergency action can be taken, and finances are provided for the purpose.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE

    Superannuation Division (Staff)
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Minister of Health why it is proposed to increase the clerical staff of the superannuation division of his Department from 30 to 166; and whether, in planning the new work involved, he has sought and accepted the advice of the Organisation and Methods Division of the Treasury.
    Mr. Bevan: This increased staff is needed to administer the superannuation scheme for the large body of staff to be transferred when the National Health Service comes into operation next July. In planning this new work the advice of the Organisation and Methods Division of the Treasury has been taken.

    Whitley Council (Pharmacists)
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that he has accepted the optical employees as fit and proper persons to be registered as contractors, and that they have Whitley Council representation, he will reconsider the decision excluding employee pharmacists in retail practice from representation on the Whitley Council created for pharmacists.
    Mr. Bevan: No, Sir. It would not be apppropriate to accord representation on the Whitley Councils being set up for persons engaged in the National Health Service to persons who are not in contract with, or directly employed by, any of the bodies constituted under the Act.
    Mr. Skinnard: Since the operation of the National Health Service Act will, presumably, depend on many hundreds of registered medical pharmacists who are employed by Co-operative Societies, and so on, and since the Minister has already accorded optical employees such recognition, does he not think it fair and desirable in the national interests that pharmacist employees should be given the same degree of recognition?
    Mr. Bevan: Persons in the bodies referred to by my hon. Friend already have their own appropriate organisations. It is not proper to give representation on the Whitley Council to persons only indirectly employed.

    Pensioners
    Mr. Sharpasked the Minister of Health in what circumstances, after 5th July, 1948, old age pensioners and police pensioners will be entitled to free medical attention.
    Mr. Bevan: These pensioners will be able to obtain the full range of the National Health Service in the same way as anyone else, and will soon be informed with the rest of the public of the steps they should take to obtain these facilities.

  BUILDING OPERATIONS (CONTROL)
  Mr. Mr. Derek Walker-Smithasked the Minister of Health why local authorities
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  have been asked by circular 40/48 to make returns of the names and addresses of persons against whom proceedings have not been instituted but who have been warned about offences against Defence Regulation 56A; and whether it is proposed to use such information in any subsequent proceedings affecting the said persons.
  Mr. Bevan: In considering the institution of proceedings, it is important to know whether a person has been expressly warned about the provisions of Defence Regulation 56A. The information is not normally used in court before conviction, unless necessary to counter a plea of ignorance.
  Mr. Walker-Smith: When the Minister says that it is not normally used, would he agree that, prima facie at any rate, such information would be inadmissible before conviction; and would he not further agree that it has no relevance after conviction because unless there is a previous conviction for the offence it would not be relevant at that stage?
  Mr. Bevan: I think that is a matter for the court itself to construe.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOUNDARY COMMISSION (REPORT)
  Mr. Houseasked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement about the report of the Local Government Boundary Commission.
  Mr. Bevan: The Commission have submitted their second annual report, which is being published today. The Government will consider it, and I would also commend it to the study of the House, of the public and, particularly, of local authorities. It raises far-reaching considerations which clearly require the fullest and widest discussion by all interested parties and sections of the community before final decisions are taken.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: Will the Minister bear in mind that the report issued today states that the Commissioners have not yet made a single order changing any boundaries; that they quote the Minister of Health as saying that "it is nonsense to talk about

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  functions and boundaries separately"; that they point out that they have no jurisdiction over functions and will the Minister introduce legislation to give them jurisdiction over functions, which they have now suggested for the second time?
  Mr. Bevan: I believe that my hon. Friend will agree that legislation on this particular matter will be highly contentious, highly involved, and unlikely to produce any very great unanimity among the local authorities concerned. In the Meantime, local authorities have been given guidance on what may happen, and I have no evidence that their activities are being hampered by the absence of orders.
  Mr. Walker-Smith: Will the Minister at all costs resist, and continue to resist, the suggestion of the hon. Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher) and not extend to the Local Government Boundary Commission the question of functions which is a question initially for Parliament?
  Mr. Bevan: It is not entirely a matter for legislation. A new Act would be required to extend the powers of the Commission for functions as well as boundaries. I think the House will agree that they are very closely related.

  ATOMIC WARFARE (FLASH BURNS, TREATMENT)
  Mr. Emry s Hughesasked the Minister of Health what advice he is giving to civil defence organisations for dealing with flash burns resulting from atomic bomb explosions.
  Mr. Bevan: Opportunity has been taken in lectures to doctors to deal with the treatment of flash burn, and advice is being included in a first-aid handbook now in preparation.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware of the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) that brown paper is a form of protection against these burns, and is he passing this advice on to the local authorities?
  Mr. Bevan: I am not able to offer any effective comment on the technical value of the advice given.

  EDUCATION

    Ex-Service Teachers (Pensions)
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Education if, in view of the fact that war service in the second war as well as the period for re-training or continued training counts for pension, he will make a similar concession to ex-Service teachers of the first war.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): The provisions relating to training college students who undertook war service during the 1914–18 war were made many years ago after full consultation with the representatives of teachers and their employers. I am afraid the subject cannot be reopened at this date.
    Sir I. Fraser: Where an enlightened view and more generous action have led to a concession being made to men after the second war, is it not both expedient and just to try and translate it into effect for men of the first war, particularly as it would cost very little?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The suggestion has been made that the agreement entered into at that time was much better than the agreement entered into after the last war.

    Further Education and Training Scheme (Grants)
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Education whether he is now able to make a statement as to the adjustment of grants under the further education and training scheme for ex-Service men and women, with particular reference to the difficulties of those students who are at Dublin universities.
    Mr. Tomlinson: My Department have considered, in consultation with the other award-making Departments, the position of students holding awards at Dublin universities, in view of the specially high cost of living in Dublin. In the circumstances, we have decided to make temporary adjustments in the grants to these students pending the general review of the standard maintenance figures, which will take place next year in consultation with universities generally.
    Sir I. Fraser: When will these adjustments be made, and can they in any sense be retrospective, because the students have had this burden for a year or more?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I will go into that question.

    Scholastic Year (Staggered Holidays)
    Sir Stanley Holmesasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that the ending of the scholastic year in the summer term is a great deterrent to the staggering of holidays; and whether he will take steps to bring about an alteration.
    Mr. Tomlinson: No, Sir. The fixing of the school holidays is a matter for the local education authorities and the authorities of the individual schools. They are aware of the need for fitting these holidays so far as possible to those agreed for local industries.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Will the Minister draw the attention of the local education authorities to the custom in Ireland where, I believe, the summer term ends in or about June, thereby meeting to some extent the point put forward by my hon. Friend?
    Mr. Tomlinson: All the different arrangements which are made in various parts of the country have been brought to their notice and steps are being taken whereby an alteration will take place in one of the examinations in a year or two, when it will be easier to accommodate this matter.

    Backward Children, Middlesex
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Education what progress is being made in the provision of accommodation for training backward children in the northwestern area of Middlesex.
    Mr. Tomlinson: There are six special schools for the education of backward children in Middlesex, and one other is proposed. The training of backward children who have been reported as ineducable does not fall within the functions of the local education authority.
    Mr. Beswick: But there are still a number of children who are educable who are on the waiting list and are unable to
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    be taken in at the present time. Will my right hon. Friend see whether he can speed up the conversion of this other school in respect of which he promised, in June, 1947, that he would give some assistance?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I will look into that but it is still on the programme.

  INDIA AND PAKISTAN

    British Judges and Civil Servants (Retirement)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many British judges and civil servants have been compulsorily retired from service in India consequent on the passing of the Government of India Act; what were their respective grades and ages; what are the form and amounts, respectively, of compensation which will be made to them for loss of office or transfer of function; and when will these amounts be paid.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Gordon-Walker): No British judges not members of the Indian Civil Service have yet been compulsorily retired as a result of the passing of the Indian Independence Act. The number of British civil servants who have so far claimed compensation or resettlement grant under Command Paper 7116 for the compulsory termination of their appointments as a result of that Act is 778 and of these 732 have already been paid.
    The officers concerned include members of all the Secretary of State's Services and cover the various grades of those Services. Their ages range from 27 to 55 in the case of the Indian Civil Service and from 25 to 52 in the case of the other Services. The scales of compensation admissible to them are set out in Table I of the Command Paper.
    Mr. Hughes: Does that answer cover the case of judges who retired under Section 10 of the Indian Independence Act, 1947, and, if so, having regard to the long time that has elapsed since the judges left India and Pakistan, can my hon. Friend say what steps are being taken to implement the rights given to the judges by Section To (2, b)?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: I would like notice of so detailed a question as that.
    Mr. Assheton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a certain amount of anxiety about this matter? There are certain judges and others who have retired, not compulsorily, but owing to the conditions that now prevail, and does not he agree that it is very desirable that satisfactory arrangements should be made for these particular individuals?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: Yes, Sir, I quite recognise that there is anxiety on this matter. There is the difficult problem of people retiring under different conditions.
    Mr. Hughes: Has the Minister based his reply to my original Question on the word "compulsorily" in the Question, and does his reply apply to those judges who exercise their option to retire under Section 10?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: I based my answer to the Question on the terms of the Question.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many of the British judges and civil servants compulsorily retired from service in India consequent on the passing of the Government of India Act have been or will be found other work in Government service in other parts of the British Commonwealth of Nations or Colonies; what type of work they have been or will be so found respectively; and what are their respective age groups.
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: The number of British civil servants compulsorily retired as a result of the Indian Independence Act, to which I presume that my hon. and learned Friend intended to refer, who are known so far to have found further employment in Government service in other parts of the British Commonwealth and Colonies is 226. The majority of these officers are employed in the various branches of the Home, Foreign and Colonial Services. Their ages range between 21–60.
    It is not possible to state how many more will eventually secure employment of the kind referred to, but there is every
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    reason to think that a substantial number will do so.
    Mr. Hughes: Can the Minister say what provision is being made for the judges who have so retired, pending the finding of new appointments for them?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: I do not think that any provision has been made, pending the finding of new employment for them.
    Mr. Rankin: Will my hon. Friend proceed with caution in this matter so far as the placing of these officers in the Colonies is concerned, because it does not necessarily follow that long training in Indian administration will fit them for the type of Colonial work we want to see?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: Naturally, we will not put people into work for which they are not properly equipped.
    Mr. Hughes: If, as stated by the Minister just now, no provision is being made for these judges who have retired, would it not be right and just that some provision should be made for them pending the finding of new appointments for them?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: Yes, I can see the point of that. Perhaps my hon. Friend would put down a specific Question on that matter.

    British Cemeteries (Maintenance)
    Mr. Symondsasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what arrangements have been made with the respective Dominion Governments for the care of British civil and military cemeteries in India and Pakistan.
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: I would refer my hon. Friend. to the reply given on 5th February to the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans). Since 1st April, and pending completion of more permanent arrangements, British civil and military cemeteries in India and Pakistan, with the exception of war graves which remain the responsibility of the Imperial War Graves Commission, have been under the care of the United Kingdom High Commissioners in New Delhi and Karachi. Funds have been placed at the credit of the High Commissioners to ensure that cemeteries are maintained during this interim period.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Squires Gate Factory, Blackpool
    Mr. A. R. W. Lowasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now state the future of the Squires Gate Factory, Blackpool.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): It is our intention that this factory should as far as possible continue to be used for production and every effort is being made to find a suitable occupier. As the hon. Member is aware, however, these buildings are of a special type which renders them unsuitable for ordinary industrial purposes.
    Mr. Low: Would the right hon. Gentleman give me some assurance that he really is trying to get a move on in finding somebody who would be suitable to occupy these premises, bearing in mind, first, that the factory is a Government factory, secondly, that it became clear a year ago that Vickers were going to leave this factory on the conclusion of the temporary housing programme, and, thirdly, that 3,000 men are now unemployed?
    Mr. Wilson: I will certainly give that assurance. As the hon. Gentleman knows, a considerable number of applicants are at present being considered, but we cannot force these applicants to go into the factory.

    Anglo-Yugoslav Negotiations
    Mr. Dribergasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the progress of the negotiations for trade agreement with Yugoslavia; if he will circulate in HANSARD an outline of the discussions that have taken place so far, indicating the causes of the long delay in reaching a settlement; and if he will renew his efforts to secure agreement as speedily as possible.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Tentative proposals for a short term agreement were submitted a month ago to the Yugoslav Delegation, who referred them to their Government. We await their reply and until it is received it would be premature to make a statement on the course of these lengthy negotiations. I may say, however, that the Yugoslays asked for guaranteed delivery dates over a very wide range of capital equipment, and made it a condi-
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    tion of any long-term agreement that we should give such assurances for certain items of equipment within periods which are not practicable in view of the other demands on our capacity. We explained that we were not prepared to guarantee delivery dates for capital equipment and both sides accordingly agreed to discuss the possibilities of a short-term agreement of limited scope. As I have said, the matter now rests with the Yugoslav Government.
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in this agreement and in others, he has made any provision for such results as flow from the agreement to be carried to a reasonable extent in British vessels?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. That is usually looked after in these agreements. It was certainly so in the Russian Agreement, and if agreement is reached here, there will be full provision to look after our interests in that connection.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: In this short-term agreement which the right hon. Gentleman envisages can he give an assurance that we shall not be selling capital goods in exchange for current requirements?
    Mr. Wilson: Yes, Sir. I can give that assurance. If there is to be a short-term agreement, it will be on die basis of goods that can be currently supplied immediately on both sides.

    Film Studios (Unused Space)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the President of the Board of Trade how many film studios in this country are not in use.
    Mr. H. Wilson: The percentage of the stage space at British studios suitable for the production of first feature films which is now unoccupied is about 10 per cent. This space is distributed over three studios, one of which is partially in use.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if this figure is likely to increase or decrease, and what are the chances of getting 100 per cent. into operation?
    Mr. Wilson: We are keeping the position of each studio under very careful review, and I think that this percentage will

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    shortly decrease. There is a certain degree of uncertainty because of the deadlock before the agreement was reached, and by reason of certain financial difficulties in the industry that we are trying to overcome.
    Mr. Wyatt: Will the Minister say whether he is taking steps to prevent American film companies acquiring these empty film studios, so long as there is any prospect of any British film company acquiring them themselves?
    Mr. Wilson: It was a cardinal point of the recent film agreement that we should not permit American film producers in any way to interfere with the legitimate rights of British film production. If there were any such conflict, I can give to my hon. Friend the assurance he wants.

  PRISONERS OF WAR

    Parcels (Vegetable Seeds)
    Mr. Dribergasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now able to state whether German prisoners may, without obtaining export licences, include small quantities of vegetable seeds in the parcels they send home; or what arrangements can be made to issue licences to them for this purpose.
    Mr. H. Wilson: At present it is still necessary for German prisoners, like other applicants, to obtain export licences, although I hope it will be possible to dispense with them for this purpose very soon. With the co-operation of my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for War, I have made arrangements for German prisoners to make application for export licences through the camp commandants.

    Civilian Workers
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Minister of Labour whether in the case of those prisoners of war who were repatriated prior to any offer being made to them to remain in this country as civilian workers, he is agreeable to allow them to return to fill jobs for which British labour cannot be found and which are important for ensuring the success of the Government's production drive.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards): No. Sir.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: That monosyllabic answer—
    Mr. Driberg: Dissyllabic.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: That dissyllabic answer being unsatisfactory, will my hon. Friend look at this question again? Having regard to the fact that a considerable number of these men are out of work in Germany, is there any reason why they should not be put on the same footing as ex-Italian prisoners of war who are allowed to come back?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I have replied on this question a number of times previously. I should like to emphasise again that the first obligation of this country is to the war victims who are now in Germany, and until we have given them a chance of rehabilitation in this country we ought not to try and recruit German prisoners of war to come back.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgc: Is my hon. Friend also aware that nothing but a spirit of reconciliation will put the world to rights, and that the view which he has expressed is one from which I strongly dissent?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I am aware of that.

  FUEL AND POWER

    Petrol Rationing
    Mr. Hoyasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he has now received the report of the Russell Vick Committee; and if he will make a statement.
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) whether he will make a further statement on the holiday petrol allowance;
    (2) whether he will now make a further statement on the savings of dollars and petrol since the abolition of the basic petrol allowance.
    Mr. William Teelingasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he now has any statement to make about the restoration of the basic petrol ration.
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what dyes for colouring petrol to avoid improper use are available; what quantity would be required to colour all petrol supplied for commercial

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    uses; and to what extent the manufacture and distribution of colour neutralisers has been investigated.
    Mr. Shurmerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, in order to give a chance to owners of cars to make their holiday preparations, is he now prepared to make a statement on the question of some basic petrol during the holiday season.
    Mr. Lowasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he has any statement to make about basic petrol.
    Mr. C. S. Taylorasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he has any statement to make about the return of basic petrol.
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that the privately owned motor craft and yachts with auxiliary engines on the Norfolk Broads and rivers will suffer deterioration if they are not able to be used this summer; and whether in order to avoid this situation and also to provide reasonable relaxation for those living and working in the areas involved, he will allow petrol to be made available for these craft during the summer months.
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will take into consideration in planning for the restoration of the basic petrol ration the fact that Whitsun falls in May this year and that the Cornish riviera has an early holiday season.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Robens): My right hon. Friend proposes, with Mr. Speaker's permission, to make a statement on the subject of petrol rationing at the end of Questions.
    Mr. Erroll: Will the right hon. Gentleman deal specifically with the precise point in my Question?
    Mr. Robens: The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's statement.
    Brigadier Medlicottasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will consider relaxing the present rule under which no allowance of petrol is allowed for a subsidiary business where the applicant already receives the maximum allow-
    348
    ance for his normal occupation, in view of the fact that this rule is operating as a handicap and deterrent to persons who are willing and able to undertake additional work and responsibility.
    Mr. Robens: The scales of allowances will be under review in the course of the next few months, but I cannot hold out any hope that, in general, increased allowances for subsidiary occupations will be granted to those who are at present receiving the maximum allowance appropriate to their scale.
    Mr. Norman Bowerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power why commercial travellers are restricted to a maximum scale of petrol allowances irrespective of the area which they have to cover; and if he will take steps to see that their allowances are adjusted so as to conform more closely to the mileage which they are compelled to cover in the course of their employment.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend, the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. D. Griffiths) on 18th March.
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Fuel and Power when it is expected to reach a decision on an application for a petrol allowance dated 24th February (Divisional Reference L. 573180), followed by a telegram on 5th March and a letter on 15th March, to none of which has a reply from Acton been received.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I regret that the original papers on this case were mislaid but an allowance has now been issued.

    Taxicabs, Brighton and Hove
    Mr. Teelingasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that taxi drivers in Brighton have been informed by the police that according to new regulations they cannot travel a distance of further than five miles from Brighton; and whether he will have this instruction altered.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): There has evidently been some misunderstanding. I am informed that the taxi drivers concerned were referred to the provisions of the Motor Fuel (Car Hire) Order, 1948, which permits an unrestricted

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    radius of operation of 20 miles from the place where the taxicab is ordinarily kept, or five miles outside the area in which the taxicab is authorised to ply for hire, whichever is the greater.
    Mr. Teeling: Has the right hon. Gentleman taken steps to see that that matter has been put right in Brighton?
    Mr. Gaitskell: This is a matter which will be touched upon in the statement I intend to make at the end of Questions.
    Mr. Teelingasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many petrol coupons were returned by licensed taxi drivers in Hove at the end of the last ration period; and when that was.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Teeling: Would it not be possible to find out? There cannot be very much involved in this. There are only 40 taxi drivers in the area.
    Mr. Gaitskell: We have information about the number of coupons returned by the taxi drivers for the whole region, but not for this area.

    Oil Conversion Programme
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will now make a statement on the coal/oil conversion programme.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I have nothing at present to add to the reply given to the hon. Member by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on Tuesday last during the Adjournment Debate.
    Mr. Erroll: That merely dealt with fuel oil. Can the right hon. Gentleman make a more comprehensive statement now?
    Mr. Gaitskell: My hon. Friend said that I would make a statement on coal-oil conversion shortly, but two days is not quite long enough.
    Mr. Erroll: The Question has been down for a long time.

  COAL INDUSTRY (SHIFT SYSTEMS)
  Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will submit statistics to show the relative production of coal results as between
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  working an extra half hour each day and working on Saturday mornings.
  Mr. Athens: No firm conclusions on this matter can be drawn from the available statistics.
  Colonel Hutchison: May I ask whether it is not of the greatest importance to the country, to the House and to the export of coal that conclusions should be drawn? There has been a conflict of opinion on this matter.
  Mr. Robens: The hon. and gallant Gentleman will note my reply. I said, "no firm conclusions" could be drawn. I can tell him that in the collieries working an extra half hour some 300,000 tons more have been produced in the last 22 weeks and from the other collieries something like 3.6 million tons more have been produced. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman is probably aware, conditions vary considerably from coalfield to coalfield and from pit to pit.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: The hon. Gentleman has not answered the Question. He has not stated whether he will publish the figures or not. May I ask him to impress on his right hon. Friend to publish these figures, and, in so doing, to bear in mind the fact that unless the stint is increased when the extra half hour is worked he figures are meaningless? This requires a lead from the Government, and I suggest that they should reconsider this matter very carefully.
  Earl Winterton: Is the hon. Gentleman going to answer that very difficult question, or is this a matter on which the Government refuse to give any information?
  Mr. Robens: I was deferring my answer in courtesy to other hon. Members in case they wanted to ask further supplementaries. This is a matter between the Coal Board—[HON. MENIBER s: "Oh."] Are hon. Gentlemen suggesting that we should impose conditions on the National Union of Mineworkers as to how their members should work? It is a matter between the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers as to how extra hours should be worked, and that is a position which the Government intend to stand by.
  Mr. Assheton: Would the hon. Gentleman be so good as to let us have the information on which we can base our opinion.
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  Mr. Thomas Brown: Is the Minister aware that the miners have answered the question by an increased overall output during the last 12 months?
  Mr. Assheton: Would the Parliamentary Secretary be good enough to give me an answer to the question I put—whether these figures will be made available to the House so that we can form an opinion?
  Mr. Robens: The figures which I have given, and which are average figures, will be in HANSARD tomorrow.
  Mr. Assheton: Is that the only information that the Minister proposes to offer to the House in answer to this Question?
  Mr. P. Roberts: If I am lucky in the matter, I shall raise this question on the Adjournment.

  BIOLOGICAL SERVICE
  Mr. Keelingasked the Lord President of the Council, whether His Majesty's Government have now decided to accept the recommendation of the Committee on the Conservation of Nature for the institution of a Biological Service.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I am not yet in a position to make a statement on this matter.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Agricultural Industry (Transferred Workers)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Labour, how many men and women, formerly employed in other industries in this country, have been placed in agriculture by his Department in the past year.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I regret that statistics giving the information desired are not available.
    Mr. Hurd: Is it not desirable to have some check on the good or ill effects of the Government's campaign to try to get more men transferred to this industry?
    Mr. Isaacs: We have the statistics of the overall numbers that have been induced to go into the agricultural industry, but we have not the exact list of industries in which the men were previously occupied. I will see if we can give that without a great deal of unnecessary trouble.
    Lieut-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Would the Minister circulate that figure in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Mr. Isaacs: That will be considered.
    Mr. Wyatt: Would my right hon. Friend agree that it would be unwise to accept every request from Members of the Opposition to have further hordes of bureaucrats to undertake work of this kind?

    Roadmen, Warwickshire (Discharges)
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Labour how many roadmen have been discharged in Warwickshire upon instructions from the Minister of Transport; how many have obtained other employment; and in what industries.
    Mr. Isaacs: Two hundred and sixteen, of whom only 25 registered for further employment. The 25 have been placed in agriculture, building, engineering, quarrying and with local authorities.
    Sir J. Mellor: Does that not show that the interference of the Ministry of Transport was entirely unjustified?
    Mr. Speaker: That is out of Order as a supplementary question.

    Wages (Minister's Letter)
    Major Tufton Beamishasked the Minister of Labour why he withdrew his letter sent to the Chairmen of Wages Councils on the subject of the Government's wages policy; and if he will publish this letter in HANSARD, as well as any new letter sent in its place.
    Mr. Isaacs: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) on 6th

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    April. I have placed in the Library a copy of the letter I sent to Wages Councils and Wages Boards on 6th April.
    Major Beamish: Is that the letter in question?
    Mr. Isaacs: The one I have placed in the Library is the letter that was issued the day before yesterday.
    Major Beamish: Is that the letter which was withdrawn? That is the one I want to see published.
    Mr. Isaacs: In regard to that letter, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave the other day.

    Building and Civil Engineering (Labour Force)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the numbers employed, giving labourers, bricklayers, plumbers and other craftsmen separately, in the building and civil engineering industries, respectively, in June, 1937, October, 1946 and the latest available date; and if he will state the numbers for the regions separately and the number of unemployed in each class on the same dates.
    Mr. Isaacs: This information is not readily available and its extraction would involve an undue expenditure of time. If the hon. Member wishes, I am prepared to discuss the matter to see how far I can be of assistance.
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Labour the number, out of the 164,000 mentioned in the Economic Survey, of labourers, bricklayers, plumbers and other craftsmen, respectively, in each region, in the building and in the civil engineering industries, planned to be released; and what steps he is taking to ensure the retention in each region of a balanced building labour force following this withdrawal.
    Mr. Isaacs: The estimated decline in the labour force for the building and civil engineering industries during 1948 mentioned in the Economic Survey is a forecast of one result of the Government's decision to reduce capital investment programmes. It would, therefore, be impracticable to analyse it in detail in the manner suggested. Since any reduction in the size of the labour force or any change in its composition during 1948 will be brought about by a reduction in the
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    amount of work available, the second part of the Question does not arise.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will the Minister of Labour consult with the Minister of Health in spite of his political bias about housing, and try to come to some satisfactory arrangement whereby the building material and the labour force can be so brought together that the maximum number of houses will be built for our people?
    Mr. Isaacs: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have no political bias against housing—
    Sir W. Smithers: But his right hon. Friend has.
    Mr. Isaacs: —and that we are taking all steps to see that the proper balance between the building trade workers is maintained as far as possible.
    Sir W. Smithers: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman not to be frightened of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, who sits on his right, and to do his best to stand up to him.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am doing my best to show that I am not afraid of hon. Gentlemen in front of me.

    Lanarkshire
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Labour (1) if he will give the number of unemployed men and women, registering at Coatbridge, Airdrie, Hamilton, Motherwell and Wishaw, Bothwell burghs, North Lanark, and Rutherglen division; and what percentage of the insured population this represents;
    (2) if he will give the numbers and the percentage of unemployed, to the insured population, registering at the Employment Exchanges in Lanarkshire and the percentage registering at Coatbridge and Airdrie, Exchanges, showing the numbers of men and women separately.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am having the available figures extracted, and will write to my hon. Friend.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Emigrants (Capital Transfers)
    Mr. Nallyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he contemplates making any change in the amount of capital which emigrants to countries out-

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    side the sterling area may have transferred to their new country.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Cripps): Yes, Sir. I have come to the conclusion with regret that we can no longer afford the present scale of allowance, which is a maximum of £5,000 payable in four equal annual instalments. I have accordingly decided to reduce the amount, as from today, to a maximum of £1,000, which will also be payable in four equal annual instalments. This reduction will not be applied to emigrants already overseas, or to intending emigrants who have already lodged formal application with their bankers. After the probationary period of four years an emigrant will continue, as now, to be redesignated as a nonresident and will be able to have his full income transferred. I should emphasise that it is not my intention to discourage emigration. In our present circumstances, however, I am bound to look at every possible economy in foreign currency expenditure and this is a source from which substantial savings can be effected, particularly in dollars.
    Squadron-Leader Fleming: Will that new regulation apply to men who want to emigrate to South Africa and who intend to remain there permanently in order to start a new business?
    Sir S. Cripps: It applies to all emigrants.
    Mr. Low: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether he has been in consultation with the Canadian Government over this, and how will it affect the plans that have been made between the Canadian Government and His Majesty's Government in Britain about emigration to Canada?
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir, we have been in consultation with them.
    Earl Winterton: Did the right hon. and learned Gentleman really mean that it would apply to South Africa? How can it, when it is in the sterling area?
    Sir S. Cripps: It applies to the maximum amount which is allowed to be taken by any emigrant out of this country.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: The Chancellor has told us that he has been in
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    consultation with the Canadian Government. Will he give an assurance that the Canadian Government agreed to this modification, because at the moment it is of the utmost importance that emigration should continue.
    Sir S. Cripps: And as the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows very well it is of the utmost importance that we should not waste dollars.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: What does the right hon. and learned Gentleman expect to save annually in dollar exchange?
    Sir S. Cripps: We hope to save about three to four million pounds worth of dollars.

    Statutory Rules and Orders
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will circulate a list of those Orders and Regulations which are no longer obtainable at the Stationery Office because they are out of print and for other reasons unobtainable.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 23rd March.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on that date he did not give an answer to the Question which I asked. I have asked him to circulate a list of all those orders which are not available to the public at the Stationery Office. Will he do this? Is he aware that in 1947 many orders and regulations were issued and that very many are not available to the public? This is a very serious matter and not one lightly to be cast aside. May I have an answer? The right hon. Gentleman has made no effort to answer.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I informed the hon. Gentleman that if he would give me details of any orders in which he was interested, I would see that he got copies. I can do no more than that.
    Mr. De la Bère: On a point of Order, many orders are not available to the public. It is not a question of whether I am interested in them. The public are more and more subjected to orders of which they know nothing. It is monstrous.

    Cabinet Ministers (Motor Cars)
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the permitted use of official motor cars for unofficial journeys, upon payment, by Ministers of Cabinet rank is conditional upon a licence being obtained under the Motor Fuel (Car Hire) Order, S.I., 1948, No. 386, if a car is to be used more than 20 miles from its base.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: No, Sir; the use of official cars by Ministers of Cabinet rank is within the permitted purposes set out in paragraph 2 of the Order.
    Sir J. Mellor: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how such use is a necessary purpose in connection with the hirer's professional business?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: That question was answered earlier in reply to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers). I would refer the hon. Baronet to that reply.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Does that mean that these official limousines can be used by Ministers for non-official journeys to their hearts' content?

  COLLECTIVE PASSPORTS (SCHOOL-CHILDREN)
  Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether satisfactory arrangements have now been made for the issue of collective passports for parties of school-children visiting those foreign countries to which travel is now permitted.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): Collective certificates will be issued for properly controlled parties of school-children and members of recognised youth organisations under the age of 16 visiting foreign countries. East party must be in the charge of a responsible adult holding an individual passport. This adult will be required to notify the parent or guardian of each member of the party of the amount of foreign exchange allowed to the child. I must point out that the foreign exchange granted on a collective certificate is part of the child's basic travel allowance of £25 per annum.
  Mrs. Castle: While I thank my hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask when the regulation is coming into operation, because school parties are at present being held up?
  Mr. Mayhew: It will be in time for this summer, but I cannot say the exact date.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Does that arrangement apply only to parties organised by schools as such or would it apply to parties of Boy Scouts?
  Mr. Mayhew: It does not exclusively apply to schools. It would certainly apply to recognised youth movements.
  Mrs. Castle: In view of the time which it takes to arrange these parties, will the hon. Gentleman speed up his announcement of the date? There is not much time left between now and summer.
  Mr. Mayhew: I will certainly look into it and try to speed it up.

  PALESTINE (MURDER OF BRITISH SOLDIERS)
  Mr. Manningham-Buller(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any statement to make with regard to the murder of a British officer and five British soldiers at Pardess Hanna, Palestine.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): The latest report which I have received from the High Commissioner states that at 7 o'clock in the morning of 6th April an armoured scout car with military markings, followed by an armoured personnel carrier reported as bearing police markings and a 3-ton truck, drove into the military camp near Pardess Hanna. Armed Jews, some of whom were dressed in police uniforms and others in Army uniforms, jumped out of the vehicles, held up the sentry and forced him into the Guard-room where he and three other members of the guard were stood up against the wall, shot in the back and killed. At the same time a signals clerk nearby was held up and radio sets and the wireless mast were destroyed by explosives. The Jews then drove their vehicles into the centre of the camp and took up positions from which continuous fire was poured into the surrounding

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  buildings. Under cover of this fire, which killed the Commanding Officer and two British other ranks, and wounded seven others, a party of the attackers raided the three camp armouries. The Jews eventually withdrew taking 62 rifles, 38 Sten guns, 18 Bren guns, four anti-tank weapons and a quantity of ammunition. Two half-tracked vehicles were also taken, but one was abandoned near the camp and has been recovered.
  All the attackers appear to have escaped. Prior to the attack, roads in the vicinity had been mined. An earlier report that four of the attackers had been captured near another military camp is incorrect.
  A statement condemning this outrage has already been made in another place on behalf of His Majesty's Government. It is cold-blooded murder for its own sake and nothing else. Such senseless crimes, committed by members of a community which aspires to recognition by the world as ready for acceptance into the comity of nations, continue to blot the record of the Jews in Palestine. They have frequently been condemned in this House. The soldiers struck down were engaged in a task arising from the honest discharge of our international responsibilities. Our soldiers are being withdrawn from these perils and this last barbarity makes the task even more urgent. The authorities in Palestine will make all efforts to bring those responsible for these crimes to justice. I am sure that Members of this House will join with me in an expression of the profound sympathy of His Majesty's Government with the relatives of the men who have been so foully murdered.
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: While joining with the right hon. Gentleman in his expressions of sympathy, may I ask him whether, apart from any expression of sympathy, any active assistance has been forthcoming from the Jewish Agency or the Jewish community with a view to securing the arrest of the perpetrators of this conduct of Nazi-like character?
  Mr. Creech Jones: On the point in regard to the co-operation of the Jewish community, I have called for the fullest information from the High Commissioner and I am awaiting his report.
  Mr. Churchill: Will inquiries also be made as to the unpreparedness of this camp, because it does seem that they were taken completely by surprise, and that this treacherous outrage was conducted with the utmost efficiency while our poor men, who were looking forward to coming back to their families in this country, were cut off and shot down without being able to inflict one single casualty upon the assailants. I think we ought to take measures to look after our soldiers, quite apart from all the other issues on which we are in entire accord with the Government.
  Mr. Creech Jones: We have, of course, called for the fullest report of all the circumstances surrounding this outrage. A Question is on the Order Paper addressed to the Secretary of State for War and will be answered in the course of a day or so.
  Mr. Nally: Bearing on the supplementary question put by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, can we have an assurance from my right hon. Friend that we shall have quite clearly and specifically stated why a camp, presumably containing a quantity of arms, was in such a position that only one sentry had to be dealt with in order to allow this apparently small convoy to enter the camp?
  Mr. Creech Jones: That is a question for the Secretary of State for War, and I understand that he will be replying to it in full early next week.
  General Sir George Jeffreys: Can the Secretary of State give any information to the House as to how these armoured cars and carriers, which were military vehicles, came into the possession of these Jews?
  Earl Winterton: Could the right hon. Gentleman now answer a question which I put to the Secretary of State for War on the Army Estimates, and to which I have not yet received an answer—whether the military authorities have full power to take all precautions for their protection, or whether they have to approach the High Commissioner and his office? That is very important because, if the soldiers are given a free hand, they will find means of stopping these outrages.
  Mr. Creech Jones: The military forces are completely unhampered in this regard. Everything that they have asked for of the High Commissioner, who is ultimately responsible in Palestine, has been given them.
  Squadron-Leader Fleming: Is it not still the fact that the Commander-in-Chief has not the authority to declare martial law, as he ought to have done a month ago, without the permission of the High Commissioner?
  Mr. Creech Jones: There are ample facilities for the declaration of martial law in the sense of cordoning off regions where outrages occur.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Secretary of State for Air and enlist his help with a view to using aircraft to track down and deal with the murderers?
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: May I repeat the question which I put on the occasion of the last unfortunate outrage? Are the Government satisfied that their broad military policy in Palestine, and the powers vested in all the military authorities in Palestine, are adequate to safeguard the lives of our soldiers?
  Mr. Creech Jones: The answer to that is in the affirmative. This matter has been gone into time and time again, and the powers reposing in the military authorities are declared to be completely adequate.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: But is the policy adequate?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Churchill: May I ask the Leader of the House, the Lord President of the Council, whether he has any statement to make on the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday and Tuesday, 12th and 13th April—Conclusion of the Debate on the Budget Resolutions and the Economic Situation. On Tuesday night, the Ways and Means Resolution on motor licences will be taken after ten o'clock. This has relationship to a statement about to be made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power.
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Wednesday, 14th April—Report stage of the Criminal justice Bill.
Thursday, 15th April—Report stage of the Budget Resolutions. The House knows that is taken formally. Conclusion of the Report stage of the Criminal Justice Bill.
Friday, 16th April—Third Reading of the Criminal Justice Bill until about one o'clock; afterwards, Second Reading of the Employment and Training Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
During the week it is hoped to take the Motion relating to India (Family Pension Funds).
Mr. Churchill: I understand we are possibly to have further discussion through the usual channels as to the fitting in of any Debate on the motor licences?
Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir.
Mr. Churchill: May I also ask that the right hon. Gentleman should endeavour, as far as possible and subject to the general convenience of the House, to have the Division on the abolition of capital punishment, which I understand is to be left freely to the conscience of the House, to be taken at a reasonable hour so that the Debate can be reported fully?
Mr. Morrison: If I may say so, I think the right hon. Gentleman has made a very fair and reasonable point. This will be a decision of the gravest importance, not less important because it will be a free vote of the House; and if the House feels that it would be convenient, then I would suggest that the Government should agree to postpone Government new Clause s, which otherwise come first on Report, in order to take any question of the abolition of the death penalty first on Wednesday. In that case we might agree that a Division should take place about 8.30 or 9 o'clock in the evening. I hope that would meet the general convenience of the House.
Mr. Churchill: There is one other question to ask, about the Debate on foreign affairs. The right hon. Gentleman is considering how to fit that in. We require two days because great interest is taken on this matter, as the Motion on the Paper shows.
[That, in the opinion of this House, steps should now be taken, in consultation with the other members of the British Commonwealth, to create in Western Europe a political union strong enough to save European democracy and the values of Western civilisation, and a trading area large enough, with the Colonial Territories, to enable its component parts to achieve economic recovery and stability;
That for this purpose there should be an emergency policy designed to secure immediate and effective co-operation between the countries of Western Europe, and a long-term policy designed to bring into being a federation of Europe;
That the emergency policy should establish forthwith a Council of Western Europe consisting of representatives of the Governments of the sixteen participating countries in the European Recovery Plan, and Western Germany, to lay down the broad lines of common action; that the Council should have power to set up permanent international staffs to coordinate the social, economic and defence policies; that the first and most important task of the economic staff would be to frame concrete proposals for the stabilisation of the currencies of Western Europe, for the development of trade, for the execution of the European Recovery Plan, for a comprehensive production plan, including agriculture and the heavy industries, and for Colonial development; that the necessary staffs should act under the direction, and by the authority, of the Council of Western Europe, and should be in continuous session;
That the long-term policy should be to create a democratic federation of Europe, with a constitution based on the principles of common citizenship, political freedom, and representative government, including a charter of human rights; that such a federation should have defined powers with respect to such matters as external affairs, defence, currency, Customs and the planning of production, trade, power and transport; and that to achieve this objective, the Governments of the States of Western Europe should take steps to convene, as soon as practicable, a constituent assembly composed of representatives chosen by the Parliaments of the participating States, to frame a constitution for such a federation.]
Would it be possible to have that Debate the week after next, or the last week in April? I would like to know what the inclination of the Government is on this matter.
Mr. Morrison: We are anxious to meet the convenience of the House as a whole. I am in the difficulty that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has certain engagements, and if the right hon. Gentleman would be so good, I think it would be well if we discussed it through the usual channels, in which case we can consider the convenience of the right hon. Gentleman as well as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.
Mr. John Paton: May I ask my right hon. Friend in regard to the Business on Wednesday, in view of the known desire of many hon. Members on both sides of the House to take part in this important Debate on capital punishment, could he not agree to give the whole evening and take the Division at 10 o'Clock as usual?
Mr. Morrison: I understood that there was a general agreement earlier with the Home Secretary that the period should be round about half a day. I think it is on record somewhere.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: Not less than half a day.
Mr. Morrison: As my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) knows, the Government legislative programme has been put to some inconvenience recently. I am not unappreciative of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. J. Paton), that it is a matter on which both sides must be heard and, having been heard, I think hon. Members must make their decisions for themselves. We are in a difficulty about the time-table and I would hope, therefore, that there should be general agreement that the conclusion might he reached on this at about 8.30 or 9, which would give us a reasonably adequate Debate.
Mr. Paton: May I make a suggestion which might be helpful? Would it be possible to have an extension of time to deal with the new Clauses which are to come up on that day?
Mr. Speaker: Sir Stanley Holmes.
Mr. Paton: May I have an answer?
Mr. Morrison: I am afraid that would not do; it would make the position rather worse than better.
Sir S. Holmes: Can the Leader of the House find time for a discussion of the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the names of the hon. Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Maclay) and other hon. Members?
["That this House notes with regret that although the Government is urging upon all sections of the community the need for increased production and reduced costs, no corresponding effort has been made to cut down the numbers employed in central and local government service with a view to making additional manpower available for production and reducing the excessive load of taxation and rates at present borne by the community; and is therefore of the opinion that an independent committee should be appointed to review the staffing and related expenditure of Government Departments and local authorities and to recommend such reductions as it thinks fit, from which review the salaries of Ministers and Members of Parliament should not be excluded."]
Mr. Morrison: I should not have thought there was any need for a Debate on a Motion about that as it seems to me in Order to raise that today or on Monday or Tuesday.
Mr. S. Silverman: May I say that many of us who signed the Amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill about the abolition of the death penalty are very appreciative of the Government's offer to waive their right to have their new Clauses taken first, in order to enable this matter to be dealt with earlier? I should have thought, speaking for myself, that five or five and a half hours would be sufficient for that discussion. I also ask the Leader of the House to appreciate that any time of the House for which I was responsible was between 12 and 3 a.m. and it did not, therefore, interfere with the Government's legislative programme.
Mr. Morrison: I will not cross swords with my hon. Friend about the last observation, but I am much obliged for his
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helpful attitude on his first observation, and I hope this good conduct will long continue.
Mr. Charles Williams: Who is it who has upset the Government's programme?
Mr. Scollan: Since the Government are going to leave this to a free vote of the House, are we not likely to prejudice the issue by applying the Guillotine?
Mr. Morrison: I have not said anything about the Guillotine. The Guillotine is a phrase meaning an Allocation of Time Order, and we are not using that. I should think it a little cynical to bring it in, in this connection.

PETROL (NEW RATIONING SYSTEM)
The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): With permission I will now make a statement on petrol rationing. Since the withdrawal of the basic ration and the other restrictions imposed last autumn, substantial savings in petrol consumption—and therefore in dollar expenditure—have been achieved. These savings, I estimate, amounted in total, up to the end of March, to 430,000 tons which would have cost 18½ million dollars. And each week now the level of consumption is about 21,000 tons less than it would have been if no cuts had been imposed—representing at present prices an annual saving of about 50 million dollars.
As the Chancellor of the Exchequer has emphasised, the need to hold down dollar expenditure today is just as great as it was last autumn. The European Recovery Programme has saved us from the immediate prospect of further drastic and damaging cuts in our dollar imports of food and materials, including oil, but it does not permit us to increase such imports above their current levels. Nor must we forget that the increasing demand for oil—particularly in the United States, which absorbs two-thirds of the world output—combined with a lack of tankers and refinery capacity, will almost certainly give rise, for some years, to an acute world shortage of petroleum, and that this may have repercussions on the supplies which we ourselves can obtain.

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In these circumstances the Government have decided that we cannot possibly afford to give up the valuable economies achieved as a result of the measures adopted last autumn. Any changes in the present rationing arrangements must therefore be subject to the condition that they do not involve an increase in total petrol consumption. At the same time the Government fully recognise that the present arrangements are in many respects unsatisfactory. The question therefore arises: can they be altered so as to give greater satisfaction without an increase in petrol consumption?
The first and most formidable obstacle to any improvement is the existence of the black market. There can be no doubt that only the complete withdrawal of the basic ration with all its tiresome consequences, could have achieved economies on the necessary scale—so long as the black market existed. For a mere reduction in the basic ration would have only intensified the demand for black market petrol and the scale of illicit transactions. And equally, so long as such transactions are possible, the restoration of a small basic ration would certainly be accompanied by heavy losses through the black market and a consequent increase in petrol consumption. Finally, although the withdrawal of the basic ration diminished the importance of the black market, there is reason to believe that the leakage of petrol through this source still remains substantial.
In order to find some solution to this problem I appointed a Committee last January under the Chairmanship of Mr. Russell Vick, K.C., to investigate its causes and to suggest remedies. Their report was published last night and hon. Members will be aware of its findings. I should like to express my sincere thanks to the Committee who have done their work with great vigour and speed and, I believe, have found an effective solution to this most difficult problem. I would also like to thank the organisations and persons who have assisted them.
The Government have decided to accept in the main the proposals of the Committee, including the passing of special legislation on penalties for those who engage in the black market. A Bill giving effect to this is already being drafted and I hope we shall have the support of all sides of the House in secur-
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ing its speedy passage. I must make it plain that the Government regard this Bill as essential to the further changes which I am about to describe, and that the latter cannot be put in to effect until the Bill becomes law. If the Vick Committee proposals succeed—as I am confident they will with the backing of strong public opinion—then I believe we can count on saving up to perhaps 100,000 tons of petrol a year which is probably still being transferred illicitly through the black market.
My Department has for some time also been engaged in examining the system of supplementary allowances with a view to saving petrol and simplifying administration in this we have had the assistance and advice of Mr. W. B. Reddaway of Clare College, Cambridge, who has exceptional experience in dealing with rationing problems in the Board of Trade. The task here is a formidable one and we have not by any means completed it. But I think we may reasonably count on saving at least 20,000 tons a year by cuts in certain allowances.
Representatives of the Joint Committee of the Automobile Association, the Royal Automobile Club and the Royal Scottish Automobile Club are already collaborating with us in this review, and I propose to appoint a standing advisory committee, whose functions would be to advise on any measures to simplify and improve the rationing system which may be put forward, and to supervise the carrying out of measures to suppress the black market. Accordingly, I have asked Mr. Russell Vick to be chairman of the Committee and his two colleagues Mr. Parker and Chief Detective Inspector Chapman to be members. I have also invited Mr. Gibson and Captain Phillips the joint secretaries of the Committee of Motoring Organisations, Mr. Grafton of the Motor Agents' Association and Mr. Reddaway to serve on the Committee.
In all, then, I hope by suppressing the black market and by the cuts in supplementary allowances to save 120,000 tons of petrol a year. This is all the extra petrol we have to distribute if total consumption is not to rise. Distributed as a basic ration of the old type, this, would allow only some 30 miles a month per car. It would be of some advantage to those already receiving supplementary allowances but of little or no value—and

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therefore quite unfair—to those with motor vehicles laid up. We have therefore decided instead on a different plan under which nearly all the extra petrol saved goes to those who none now. The new arrangements will be as follows:—

(1) Anybody who licenses a private car or motor cycle will be entitled to a small all-purpose petrol allowance to be used entirely as the owner wishes. This will be at the rate of ⅓ of the old basic ration and so will be sufficient for only about go miles motoring per month, as compared with 270 miles per month provided through the basic ration immediately before it was withdrawn.

(2) In contrast to the old basic ration this allowance will not be additional to the existing supplementary allowances. To avoid confusion I therefore propose to call it a "standard" ration. A reduction equivalent to the new standard ration will be made from all supplementary allowances as they are issued. Thus those now receiving supplementary petrol equal to or exceeding the "standard" ration will receive in total no more petrol coupons than before; and I must make it plain that no appeals against the application of this rule in individual cases can be considered. I realise, of course, that this will seem rather hard to some, but we just cannot at present afford the dollar expenditure which would be necessary to give everybody the standard ration in addition to their existing supplementary allowances, and this is the decisive factor. Holders of supplementary allowances will of course be entitled to use their "standard" ration quite freely and without restriction.

(3) The standard ration will be valid for the month of issue and the succeeding five months so that those who wish to do so may accumulate their coupons for as much as six months. Moreover, during the first six months of the new system, coupons valid during the period may also be used in advance.

(4) Motorists who do not draw supplementary allowances will be entitled to obtain a motor vehicle licence for their car or motor cycle at half the normal rate. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be tabling later in the day the
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necessary Resolution on this matter. I also propose to discuss at once with representatives of the insurance companies the question of a reduction in premiums being granted in similar cases.

(5) Arrangements will be made for an issue of petrol for private motor boats and aircraft at one-third of the rate in force immediately before the withdrawal of the basic ration.

(6) As a corollary of these changes, I propose to revoke the order restricting the operation of hire cars to a radius of 20 miles from the place in which they are normally kept.

These changes will come into effect on 1st June, which is the earliest possible date by which the operations against the black market can be fully effective.
I do not expect for one moment that these arrangements will satisfy everyone, but I claim that, given the condition that we cannot afford more dollars for petrol, they have great advantages. Those who have been obliged to lay up their cars or motor cycles may bring them out again without excessive cost for a modest mileage, which they may concentrate or spread in time as they wish. Those with supplementary allowances, who have enjoyed no little benefit and convenience from keeping their cars on the road, now have as well a much valued element of freedom. Finally, the clearing up of the black market, which is the foundation on which the whole scheme rests will, I am certain, receive the backing of all good citizens.
I have explained these new proposals in confidence to the representatives of the main motoring organisations, who have given them their full support, and for the reasons I have outlined I am confident that they will be welcomed by the majority of motorists as constituting a marked improvement on the present arrangements.
Mr. Churchill: It is, of course, our duly on this side of the House to welcome any sign of repentance, however tardy and however partial it may be, and I certainly do not wish to discourage the right hon. Gentleman, by the questions I am going to ask him, from further efforts to pursue that stony but on the whole righteous path. We have urged the great inconvenience to which the public was subjected, and I should like to ask how it

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was that these arrangements, which I must say seem to have been very carefully considered, could not have been thought out before striking the blow which caused immense disturbance and heavy internal loss to this country. Why should not all the thought, or a good part of the thought, contained in this statement have been expended in the Government Departments concerned, and the nation have had the benefit of a well-considered, carefully-considered scheme instead of the abrupt and crude cut?
The second question I have to ask is—leaving out the dollar exchange aspect altogether—what is the estimated loss in expense and to the Revenue of the institution and now the modification of the basic petrol ration? How much has been spent in salaries of large staffs to administer this; how much loss can be ascribed to the business of the country and to the inconvenience caused; and how much loss to the Revenue in regard to the fewer licences which have been taken out? Is there any balance sheet which the right hon. Gentleman can present of the loss here? I should like to put those questions, and to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can give answers to them. At the same time, I do not wish in any way to detract from the admission of error and the effort of repentance which has characterised his statement.
Mr. Gaitskell: I am afraid I must disappoint the right hon. Gentleman. I am in no way repentant and I admit no error. If the right hon. Gentleman will read my statement, I think he will see that I have given very good justification for the measures which we adopted last autumn. In the first place it was necessary, until the black market is stopped, to take those steps, unpleasant as they were. In the second place, until we were assured that we were not going to have to face the prospect of immediate and further severe cuts in imports, it would have been impossible to proceed with this plan. As regards the further question which the right hon. Gentleman addressed to me, answers have, I think he will find, been given on various occasions during the last few months, and the figures, etc. are available, if he would look them up.
Mr. Shurmer: Is the Minister aware that while motorists may be thankful for the
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concession which has been given for basic petrol for the holidays, there will be considerable disappointment about the date of 1st June, because we shall be losing the Whitsun week, when many people would have taken their holidays? Can my right hon. Friend also say whether he has accepted the Russell Vick recommendation to make a further 10 per cent. cut in the allowance made to goods vehicles?
Mr. Gaitskell: I should have been only too delighted had it been possible to bring this scheme into operation by Whitsun. It is not possible. Indeed, we shall need all the time we can get, both in this House and for other purposes, if it is to be in operation by 1st June. As regards my hon. Friend's second question, there will be a 10 per cent. cut in the allocation to commercial vehicles, but I must emphasise that that does not constitute a saving additional to the 100,000 tons I mentioned.
Commander Noble: Is the Minister renewing the allowance to members of the Forces on foreign service leave?
Mr. Gaitskell: I should like to have time to consider that.
Miss Bacon: When my right hon. Friend refers to supplementary allowances, does he include both "E" and "S" coupons or only "S" coupons?
Mr. Gaitskell: Both.
Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that under these new arrangements no appeals could be considered. Does that mean that he is not prepared to receive representations from hon. Members of this House about cases of hardship which come to their notice?
Mr. Gaitskell: I said that I could not consider appeals against the principle of taking the standard allowance from recipients of supplementary allowances. Of course, the ordinary right of appeal exists.
Mr. Mikardo: In calculating future consumption, has the Minister taken into account the drop in the number of unused supplementary coupons returned, which is likely to result from the introduction of a free element in the allowance for supplementary users of petrol?

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Secondly, is it implicit in his statement that if the black market does not disappear to the extent he hopes, these arrangements are not likely to be continued?
Mr. Gaitskell: The answer to the first question is "Yes, Sir." The answer to the second part is that the whole of this scheme depends upon suppressing the black market, and if we do not have the co-operation of motorists and everybody else, then the scheme may have to be abandoned.
Mr. Churchill: Is not that a very serious statement, because people are now invited to take out licences and make their plans on the basis of the statement which has just been put forward? Let me say at once that every effort must be made to stamp out the black market; but supposing these efforts do not succeed in overcoming the ingenuity of those engaged in these evil practices, are we to assume that all this is to be swept away, when people have taken out licences and made their arrangements—that it will all be taken away? Would it not be better to say that this scheme will have at least a year's run?
Mr. Gaitskell: I am not suggesting that we would suddenly abandon this scheme, but merely pointing out that it does depend upon the suppression of the black market. Obviously, if it is not suppressed, we could not go on with the scheme indefinitely.
Sir Arthur Salter: Will the Minister ensure that there is sufficient petrol for foreign visitors in order to avoid the very considerable danger of a great loss in dollar earnings?
Mr. Gaitskell: Announcements have already been made on that subject by the President of the Board of Trade. A very substantial allowance is being granted to foreign visitors.
Mr. Rankin: Is it not clear that if my right hon. Friend obtains the co-operation of the motoring fraternity in this scheme, the black market will be suppressed?
Mr. Gaitskell: I think the answer is, "Yes."
Mr. Churchill: I should like a direct answer to the point whether we may take it that this scheme will be given a run for a year.
Mr. Gaitskell: I have nothing to add to what I have said on this subject.
Mr. Butcher: May I ask the Minister whether the standard ration is to be standard, irrespective of the size of the car, or will it be related to the horsepower of the car?
Mr. Gaitskell: It will be related to the horsepower of the car.
Mr. Scollan: Can the Minister say what is the estimated extra cost of this scheme?
Mr. Gaitskell: I should prefer to have notice of that question.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: What effect will this announcement have upon the applications for supplementary petrol at present pending with the regional petroleum officers, and can the Minister also clarify the position with regard to the holders of supplementary petrol coupons? Does his statement mean that the holder can use his car for any purpose up to a maximum of 90 miles a month or is there some other implication?
Mr. Gaitskell: There are somewhat complicated administrative arrangements to be made, and I do not think that I should now involve myself in a long explanation. All these things will be made perfectly clear to the public. We shall be publishing a leaflet setting out exactly what the position is, and I think that hon. Members will find there the answers to their questions.
Mr. C. S. Taylor: Cannot the Minister give us any sort of security of tenure about this matter? Does he not realise how impossible it is for all the business people who depend upon motorists? It is impossible for them to make any plans unless they know where they stand.
Mr. Vane: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend the control of the black market to be the responsibility of the police, or does he intend to recruit a private army of his own, like the Minister of Food?
Mr. Gaitskell: It is one of the recommendations of the Russell Vick Committee's Report that it should be in the hands of the police.
Mr. Erroll: Does the Minister intend to colour the petrol as recommended by the Russell Vick Committee?
Mr. Gaitskell: Yes.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 7th April].
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  WAYS AND MEANS

    AMENDMENT OF LAW
    Question again proposed,
    "That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue, and to make further provision in connection with finance."

  BUDGET PROPOSALS AND ECONOMIC SURVEY
  4.5 P.m.
  Sir John Anderson: For an ex-Chancellor, for that matter two ex-Chancellors, to contemplate the Chancellor unfolding his Budget, amid the manifold complexities which the whole subject presents under the extraordinarily difficult conditions of the present time, must inevitably be a rather moving experience. Whether the ex-Chancellor in those circumstances may or may not feel tempted to say to himself, "There, but for the grace of God—" and so on, will depend, I suppose, on personalities, and also on circumstances. At any rate, one can recognise, with the knowledge of all the difficulties that it involves, a task discharged with complete mastery alike over principle and detail. And if I may do so without appearing to be in any way patronising, I should like to express admiration of the manner in which the Chancellor discharged his function last Tuesday.
  Among all the many points presenting themselves to one with experience of the problem of framing and expounding a Budget, it must inevitably be somewhat difficult to make a proper selection. The field is very wide. In conformity with the general understanding as to the organisation of this Debate, I propose to confine my remarks, as far as possible, to the strictly budgetary aspects of the Chancellor's statement. I will, however, find it necessary to say something of a general character upon the bearing of the Budget on our general economic situation.
  As to the budgetary aspects, it is surely quite clear that the problems which con-
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  front the Committee at this moment might have been very different if our financial and economic affairs had been differently handled during the past two and a half years. But we must, of course, recognise that the Chancellor's proposals are necessarily related to the situation as it in fact exists. I will direct my comments from that point of view. In the first place, I welcome wholeheartedly the Chancellor's insistence on the necessity for an adequate, real, surplus. As we pointed out at the time, the surplus shown in the statement of the former Chancellor was largely unreal, to use no harsher term. I welcome the present Chancellor's realistic approach. I do not propose to take up time by endeavouring to analyse his figures. That I can safely leave to those who have already spoken, or who will speak later in this Debate.
  In seeking means of securing a real surplus any Chancellor must, of necessity, take account of what is, in fact, a struggle, a conflict between incompatibles. That is a problem which confronts every Chancellor. For example, every attempt to reduce a deficit on external account tends inevitably to increase inflationary pressure at home. Similarly attempts to increase incentives to production by tax reliefs must have, in the first instance at any rate, some inflationary effect. Again, any inroad upon accumulated capital tends to discourage saving, and so on. It is always a question of a balance of advantage and disadvantage. This the Chancellor has recognised. He, has not attempted to burke the issue. Whether in every case he has chosen what on balance is the right course, may merit further examination. With regard to the increases in the already very heavy duties on beer and other alcoholic liquors and tobacco, I have little to add to what was said yesterday by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank). Undoubtedly, those additions to what, as I have said, was already a heavy burden, may stimulate demands for wage increases.
  In that connection, I wish that the Chancellor had been more definite as to the objective of his Tobacco Duty. Members of the Committee may recall that last year we criticised the former Chancellor on that score. He had, he made it clear, two objects in view—the reduction of dollar expenditure and the question of

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  revenue. I think that he gave the impression that he attached greater weight to the former purpose, and he told us yesterday that he was disappointed, as we warned him clearly that he would be, by the result. He said that a reduction of 20 per cent. was small in relation to the total amount involved. Of course, a reduction of 20 per cent. is a reduction of 20 per cent. irrespective of the amount involved, but we will let that pass. I do not, I confess, know what the dominant purpose of the present Chancellor was. I hope that it was to secure revenue. I think that perhaps I am right in that. After all, even if one incurs dollar expenditure, if an expenditure of £1 brings in £10 in additional revenue, which I think is in fact the position, that is not something in present circumstances to be lightly disregarded.
  The reorganisation of the Purchase Tax, as my right hon. and gallant Friend said yesterday, is welcome to those on this side of the Committee who have been asking for some such simplification and rationalisation. I think the new scheme, though I have not been able to examine it in detail, represents a definite improvement, as has been generally recognised. Whether it was altogether wise in present circumstances to seek a reduction in tax revenue of as much as £24 million by this process of reorganisation is, I think, a matter on which there is room for some difference of opinion. I have made my own view in regard to Purchase Tax quite clear on previous occasions. I do not regard the Purchase Tax as a suitable or an ideal form of taxation in normal times, except in so far as it can be brought down to the character of a luxury tax. The figure that I had indicated as a reasonable objective—a revenue of £100 million a year—is, of course, very far short of what is being collected at the present time even with the reduction of £24 million to which I have referred, but the present circumstances are exceptional, and exceptional measures are justified.
  I heartily approve, as other hon. Members have done, of the proposed Income Tax adjustments in all their aspects. I wish indeed that the process could have been carried further. I agree that the changes that have been made will have some useful effect in mitigating the incidental consequences—what may be described as the psychological conse-
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  quences—of the system of tax collection known as P.A.Y.E.; but they are only a mitigation. They do not go the whole way. I have had an opportunity within recent months of examining statistics collected in the Port of London from the different dock systems, and an examination of curves recording the relation, for different classes of employees working in different geographical positions, between output and earnings shows, in a quite impressive way, the same characteristic. The curves all show that at the point at which earnings become subject to a higher rate of tax there is a falling off in effort. That fact, which was to me very impressive, suggests the desirability of going further than the Chancellor has so far found it possible to go.
  I would like, therefore, to repeat a suggestion which I threw out in an earlier Debate that the whole system of P.A.Y.E. which is an essential feature of our Income Tax structure, ought to be further examined. I believe that it would be possible to find a way of continuing the collection of tax from wage earners and salary earners in the lower grades by P.A.Y.E.—payment on current earnings week by week—which would not produce the undesirable consequences that have attended, in practice, the operation of the system. I hope, therefore, that there will be a further examination of that problem. It is not an easy problem, but there are many ingenious people in the service of the Board of Inland Revenue, I believe that something could be worked out and that a system could be devised, not so theoretically perfect as the present system, but still good enough for the purpose of securing the collection of the revenue which is properly due to the State without the unfortunate psychological effects of the present system.
  Still on the subject of Income Tax, I would like to say how heartily I approve of the proposals for checking evasion. Some hon. Members may remember tint I referred to this subject two years ago when I emphasised the importance of looking into the whole matter particularly with a view to ensuring that in practice the administration of the rules which are relevant in this connection—I think that they are rules 9 and 10 of the rules under Schedule E—should be brought, arid kept, strictly in line. I think there has been some divergence. Under one rule,

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  the administration governed by the formula which the Chancellor quoted, "expenses wholly, necessarily and exclusively incurred" has been allowed to diverge from the administration under the other rule, which is in the hands of the Treasury and not the Department of Inland Revenue, and I am quite sure that any divergence in the administration of these two rules must be seriously embarrassing to the officers of the Board of Inland Revenue in the discharge of their difficult and delicate task. I am quite sure that, as the Chancellor said, no one would wish to levy taxation on expenses which are properly and reasonably incurred in connection with the services for which remuneration is earned, but I think there is very great need for examination of the whole field of administration in that connection, and I hope that that examination will take place.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): Rule 9?
  Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Rules 9 and 10. I need not go into that in more detail, because I am sure it is quite clear to the Financial Secretary.
  Now I come, while still within the field of direct taxation, to a feature of the Chancellor's proposals in regard to which I cannot express the approval that I have been able to give so far to his other proposals. I refer to the Special Contribution on investment income. I wholly disapprove of that proposal. The first purpose of the Chancellor in proposing that levy was, as he explained, to provide, together with additional revenue to be secured by the other increases of taxation, a sufficient addition to the real balance of £330 million to admit of granting certain highly desirable Income Tax reliefs, but the Chancellor himself admitted that all the figures in that connection are in some degree conjectural, and I doubt very much whether he will question my view that the possible margin of error is much more than the £50 million which he expects to get from this Special Contribution in the present financial year. In any case, in so far as the proceeds of this levy will be drawn from capital—and the Chancellor emphasised that the tax must be regarded as a capital tax which would be paid in considerable measure by the realisation of capital assets—I suggest
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  that the revenue will not, in fact, add to the real balance, and that it will not be deflationary in its effect.
  The Chancellor said that the levy was something to be imposed once and for all. Well, it is certainly too crude an expedient to be capable of repetition. It depends entirely for its effectiveness as an instrument of taxation on the fact that it is related to the receipts of a previous year. On that matter, I need add nothing to what was said by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough but, in regard to what the Chancellor said about it being once and for all, I would like to put this question. If that expedient was necessary on the present occasion, what is the position to be a year hence? Does anyone expect that the situation in regard to the necessity for a real balance will be any different then from what it is now, and what will the Chancellor contemplate doing then?
  Looking at the matter from that point of view, I say that this levy must have a gravely disturbing effect and must react disastrously on savings. What does it do? It imposes a tax on those who have used their savings wisely, those who have listened to the exhortations of the Government. Those who have behaved in an anti-social way, who have kept their savings liquid, or used them for extravagant expenditure, or converted them or used them to purchase racehorses, pictures, jewels and so on, and again those who, instead of investing in order to secure a regular investment income, have used the money to operate speculatively on the Stock Exchange seeking to gain capital appreciation, are untouched by it. I think it is very difficult indeed to justify.
  In fact, I find it very difficult to resist the conclusion that here the Chancellor allowed himself to descend from the high level upon which his other proposals have been framed and to offer a sop to supporters who have been disappointed at his failure to introduce what he called a real capital levy. On that point. I want to refer to something that fell from the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton). The Chancellor made it clear that he was opposed, in present circumstances, to a capital levy. He pointed out the impossibility of carrying out all the valuations that would be required, and he explained that any

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  revenue resulting from a capital levy could only be collected over a long period of time. I think he might have gone very much further.
  I do not wish to trouble the Committee with biographical details, but it happens to be the case that I was the chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue during the period of the deliberations of a Select Committee set up after the first war to examine the problem of a special levy on war wealth. I was the principal official witness before that committee, and I had occasion at that time to go very fully into the whole question of a capital levy, and I have gone into it again since. I made special inquiry when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think it is quite clear, and I venture to state this with some conviction to the Committee, that, under present conditions, with Surtax at its present level or anywhere near its present level, a capital levy, apart altogether from all other considerations, would simply be, from a revenue point of view, not worth while. The amount collected after a terrific effort, great difficulty and disturbance would not, in fact, compensate for the loss of the Surtax revenue and Death Duties year after year in future. That is all I want to say on that subject.
  As I have been referring to the speech yesterday of the right hon. Gentleman who succeeded me as Chancellor of the Exchequer, I would like at this point to take up another matter to which he referred. He made what I confess seemed to me to be a most extraordinary and quite outrageous allegation of a conspiracy against his cheap money policy. The right hon. Gentleman was not the author of the cheap money policy. I had as much to do with it, more, in fact, in its inception, than he had. I told him after he became Chancellor, again and again, that I thought he was going too far and too fast in carrying out a policy which I regarded as in itself desirable. I was myself, as Chancellor, always in some doubt as to how far the policy could safely be carried. I know the view of the eminent economist who had more to do than anyone else with that policy—the late Lord Keynes; I know, and I state here with conviction, that it was his view, rightly or wrongly, that 3 per cent. represented the limit to which that policy could in present circumstances be carried. I know that and I state it with conviction.
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  The immediate effect of cutting down to 2½ per cent. was to create a great deal of capital appreciation over the whole range of gilt edged securities and it was not until that process had worked itself off that the natural and inevitable reaction to the reduction in the rate of interest from long term securities to 2½ per cent. began to make itself felt. When that effect wore off, the market inevitably reverted to a more natural rate. I quite see that the right hon. Gentleman may well be concerned by the effect on the holders of 3 per cent. Local Loans who trusted the Government and accepted conversion to an undated security carrying interest at 2½ per cent. That security, commonly known, I believe, as "Dalton's," stands today at 76, a discount of 24 per cent. That is the capital levy which has been imposed on those who trusted the Government. That very hard fact is not to be explained away by any imaginary conspiracy. There was, no doubt, a consensus of opinion over a very large field that 2½ per cent. was too low, but that does not constitute a conspiracy and I would challenge the right hon. Gentleman to produce any evidence, if he can, in support of what he said yesterday.
  I have two other points to make before I come to a final word on our economic situation. First, I want to refer to a matter on which, I think, the Chancellor said nothing—the question of the external capital drain from which we have suffered. The White Paper on balance of payments made it clear that over a period of 12 months there had been a capital drain of no less than £300 million. I raised the question a year ago, and got no answer, as to the steps that had been taken to stop such a capital drain. We have, of course, an effective machinery to control capital movements from the sterling area, or at any rate from this country, to hard currency areas, but what I suggested was that we required a similar control, different perhaps in detail, to check movements which might result in a serious loss of capital between one part of the sterling area and another; and I want to ask whether now, at long last, the necessary measures have been taken for that purpose; whether we can, in fact, be assured that there will not be a continuance of the very serious drain from which we have suffered in that way and which has resulted in so great a loss of capital resources. Has anything effective

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  been done in that connection and may we have some details of the machinery set up?
  I want next to say a word on a matter to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer did make reference—food subsidies. He said that he had decided deliberately to stabilise food subsidies at the present figure of £400 million. The reason which he gave for that statement was to me the most depressing feature in the whole of his speech. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland naturally appeared to derive encouragement from what the Chancellor said. He contrasted the Chancellor's statement with my attitude. He said I had stated that food subsidies must be reduced to negligible proportions. That was not an entirely accurate quotation; what I said, in fact, was that they were demoralising and that our economy would never be in a healthy state until they had been reduced to negligible proportions, and in support of that I can muster an impressive array of economists.
  I feel justified in claiming—and I do claim, here and now—that the Government have, in fact, accepted my contention; otherwise why should they stop at £400 million? It is not as if the Government had deliberately bronght the figure up to that amount. They have drifted to that point. The Chancellor defended the position only on the secondary consideration that any reduction would lead to wages claims—the secondary consideration. He appeared to admit—it is all on record—that a reduction would in itself have a desirable effect, but he rejected the idea of making a reduction because any reduction would lead to wages claims. What a confession of impotence! What a confession of inability to establish a sound wages policy!
  Surely we must all recognise that the position in which wages are linked automatically to a cost of living index is economically unsound. We should all like to see real wages at the highest possible level consistent with our economic position, but they must depend on production and it is production and not the cost of living, except in so far as the same factors affect the money value of the products of trade and industry, that must limit in the long run the level to which wages can be allowed to rise. The relation between wages and the cost of
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  living has no doubt an important social aspect, but it should not be allowed to obscure the vital economic factor of productivity on which the stability of wage rates must ultimately depend.
  For the time being, I am afraid, we must accept the Chancellor's conclusion, but I would ask as a step towards a more rational view of the whole situation whether action cannot be taken to secure the publication for a number of typical cases of an analysis showing how the value of a product is ultimately distributed between the various factors—wages, salaries, materials, general overheads, depreciation, prior charges, taxation, and net profit available to the equity shareholders.
  Finally, a word about the general economic situation. If I may use a homely metaphor, our economy today may be likened to a machine which has been taken to pieces for overhaul and modernisation, and put together again according to a new and more up-to-date specification. The old machine was fitted with a system of automatic controls, such as price mechanism, safeguards against external drain, discount rates, the phenomena of the trade cycle and so on, automatic controls which were effective in keeping the machine on an even keel but which operated harshly, cruelly and often led to the jettisoning of both passengers and cargo. This was recognised by the Coalition Government, and, therefore, the new machine was fitted with a system of manual controls. That was the meaning of the White Paper on Employment Policy. The old machine was sensitive and reacted to every danger signal.
  It fell to the present Government to operate the new machinery. They should have recognised that to work it effectively it was essential that it should be equally sensitive to every threatening danger and that they should hold themselves always ready to react by taking prompt and decisive action. At long last the present Chancellor seems to have recognised that fact, for he said in his Budget speech:
  "We must watch the situation carefully, and be ready to detect the moment when the inflationary pressure vanishes and gives place to deflationary tendencies; if such a thing should happen, we must then make a rapid readjustment of our economic and financial policies.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th April, 1948; Vol. 449, c. 49]

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  But for two and a half years the Government have failed abjectly in that very respect. They have gone slopping along, refusing to look facts in the face, in a Micawber-like fashion, hoping apparently always for something favourable to turn up which might dispense them from the necessity for some distasteful action. That, in my view, is very largely the explanation of our present plight.
  Two years ago when I made adverse comments on certain actions of the Government which I thought had aggravated our difficulties, I said that I was not disposed to blame them over much. The problems were novel and the circumstances seemed superficially more favourable than they actually were. But while I took a charitable view of mistakes which they made in the first flush of enthusiasm—ignoring inflationary trends, the effect of price control and subsidies, the effect of increases in wages not matched by increases in production, a large external drain and large new commitments incurred while we were still dependent on the charity of our overseas friends—I certainly do not take the same view now when I find members of the Government and others obstinately refusing to recognise their blunders, for I fear that they may do the same thing again. I claim that events have amply justified my words.
  Yesterday the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland gloried in what he had done. Referring to certain things which I had criticised, he said that the nation had "taken them proudly in its stride." The same claim might have been made for the Gadarene swine. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, in a party political broadcast last Saturday, permitted herself to characterise my attitude in the matter of family allowances as a blow aimed directly at the children of this country. What nonsense! If she had wanted to paint a true picture, she should have said that the Act establishing family allowances was framed and passed by a Coalition Government; and, incidentally, that I was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who assented to its financial provisions.
  Mr. Shurmer (Birmingham, Sparkbrook): The right hon. Gentleman did not put it into operation.
  Sir J. Anderson: I might have made the mistake, too. If the hon. Lady wanted
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  to make doubly sure of not creating a false impression, she might have gone on to explain how very little the Labour Party had to do with the inception of family allowances, which they consistently opposed when an Independent Member for a University constituency was fighting year after year to get the principle accepted. The Chancellor might not avow it, but I am quite sure that his task today would be greatly eased if he had the family allowances and some other items of expenditure on which I have commented in the past still in hand. I am not unduly sensitive to what hon. Members may say about me personally, but I do resent it when my attitude is distorted for the purpose of creating party prejudice.
  I would like in conclusion to lay down the general proposition that the system of economic controls which has been established will never work satisfactorily unless those directly responsible keep party polemics entirely out of the picture. I have nothing more to say on the economic situation. On the Budget proposals in general, while I disagree in detail with certain of the proposals, I most heartily welcome the honest and realistic approach which the present Chancellor has made to the very difficult problems with which this country is at present confronted.
  4.47 P.m.
  Mr. Benson: The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) made a very courteous bow to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and then in the same movement he gave a backhander to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton). He accepted almost without criticism the claim of the Chancellor that the present Budget is a strong anti-inflationary Budget, and then he contrasted it with the finance for which my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland has been responsible. As a matter of fact, the claim of the Chancellor that this is a strongly anti-inflationary Budget is rather exaggerated, and the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities does not seem to realise that the effect of this Budget is almost identical with the effect of the Budget of my right hon. Friend last year.
  I would like to turn to a few of the more controversial statements of the right

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  hon. Gentleman. He said we were in a parlous state, but, so far as I can see, the only practical proposal that he had to make was once again a cut in the food subsidies. He said they were demoralising and, apparently, mainly responsible for our present difficulties. They are not demoralising and, as a matter of fact, they are a very small proportion—less than two-fifths—of the total number of subsidies that are granted by the community. They are paid for by their recipients. They amount to some £400 million. The recipients pay in direct taxation £1,500 million, and in indirect taxation £1,500 million. Why is it more demoralising and more economically wrong to provide food subsidies which amount to 25 per cent. of the cost of the food, and charge the cost to taxes, than it is to give water out of the tap entirely free and charge the cost to rates? What is the difference? Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that the effect of withdrawing food subsidies would, in present circumstances, help us either socially or industrially?
  There was some noise at the beginning of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, and I am not sure whether I am quoting him accurately, but I gathered that he said that the increased taxation on beer and tobacco might tend to lead to increased wage demands.
  Sir J. Anderson: Yes.
  Mr. Benson: If increased wage demands are to come from a penny a pint on beer and 2d. on tobacco what increased wage demands will come from an increase of 25 per cent. in the cost of basic foods? However, I will get on to something less controversial for a moment. It has been said that this is an anti-inflationary Budget. Within certain limits it is, but I suggest that those limits are very narrow. I further suggest that they have been designed specifically to deal with inflation arising from one cause, and only one cause. There has been a great deal of loose talk about deficits and surpluses and bogus surpluses. I think we ought to analyse what we mean by all this. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities suggested that £50 million from the levy was not anti-inflationary—
  Sir J. Anderson: Not wholly.
  Mr. Benson: I entirely agree. But on the other side of the balance sheet we find figures which are not inflationary. Let us submit this Budget to a rigorous analysis as to whether the receipts are deflationary and whether the outgoings are inflationary. It is only when we have done that, that we can see what this Budget really means. All outgoings are not necessarily inflationary and all receipts are not necessarily deflationary. The Chancellor starts off with a Budget of £790 million. Death Duties, paid out of capital, will yield £160 million. Certainly, they do not curtail consumption and, therefore, they are not deflationary. There is the capital contribution, another £50 million, and then there is the very doubtful item called "Miscellaneous Assets," of the deflationary effect of which I am highly sceptical. That means that out of £790 million there are £278 million which are not deflationary receipts. That reduces the Chancellor's surplus to £500 million.
  He has to meet outgoings, below the line, amounting to £473 million, but of all those outgoings these are not inflationary. There is £140 million for war damage payments, which are value payments, and which will not come into the ordinary flow of expenditure on consumption. They will not create expenditure until the time arrives when building permits can again be obtained. So, we get, against the £500 million surplus outgoings of £330 million, leaving a surplus of £170 million. On the other hand, we have to make a rather curious and complicated adjustment. There is an outgoing, in last year's financial accounts, of £85 million in connection with the Argentine. That is not inflationary because it does not involve any expenditure in this country. What it does do is to ensure that we get meat sent to us without payment from our ordinary income this year. To balance up the effect, we have to introduce that as an asset in this year's balance.
  That brings us to the figure of £275 million, which is the real deflationary surplus. I suggest that this figure is not merely fortuitous. If Members will turn to the Economic Survey for 1948 they will find that the figure of £275 million is exactly the figure estimated to be necessary to balance private savings with in-

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  vestments. What the Chancellor has done is to aim at preventing any inflationary effect from a surplus of investment. Let us realise exactly what he has done, because if we are to understand this question of inflation, and the problems which face us, we must understand what the Chancellor is doing. What the Chancellor has done is exactly the outcome of the Budget of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland last year. If we submit that Budget to the same rigorous analysis that I have attempted in the case of this Budget, striking out what is not deflationary from receipts and what is not inflationary from expenditure, we find that the figures balance almost to a penny. Last year, we had £675 million from overseas borrowing, which made it unnecessary, so far as our investment was concerned, to have a Budget surplus. The point was met by a balanced Budget and overseas borrowing. This time, because overseas borrowing is not available, we have met the problem of investment by a very carefully calculated Budget surplus.
  Sir Arthur Salter: I take it that it would follow that the Budget now presented makes no contribution to dealing with the extra-inflationary pressure that will come from the reduction in our overseas deficit this year.
  Mr. Benson: I will deal with that in a few moments. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland achieved by his Budget exactly what the present Chancellor proposes to achieve by this Budget. Despite that, we were under very heavy inflationary pressure all last year. It did not, however, as I have shown, arise from bad budgeting. The inflationary pressure we are facing today is due to the fact that the people of this country are steadily refusing to recognise the physical limits of the standard we can afford. They are trying to improve their standard by forcing up money incomes, and it is from that source that the major problem of inflation arises. We have been deluged with White Papers, and complicated and difficult figures, and I discuss this whole matter with great diffidence, but if we turn to the White Paper on National Income we can, by comparing the various tables, arrive at this very interesting result in the last three years there has undoubtedly been an increase in the real standard of living, but the increase
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  in expenditure has been three times as great as the increase in the standard itself, which creates some measure of inflation.
  What about next year? The Economic Survey not only visualises inflation but it visualises accelerated inflation. What is more melancholy is that, although there has been a steady improvement in the real standard of living in the last three years, for next year the Economic Survey visualises an actual cut in our standard of living. The figures it gives are roughly these: there will be an increase in the national income of 4½ per cent. in 1948, over 1947, and the decrease in the national standard of living will be anything between 3 per cent. and 5 per cent. That calculation is based upon an assumption that we achieve certain extremely difficult production targets. I will not go into the details of them, but they include textiles, and the like.
  Those targets will be achieved only by extraordinarily good fortune. If we do not achieve those targets we shall have to rob the home market in order to maintain our imports. That will mean a greater cut in the real standard of living than the estimated 3 per cent. to 5 per cent. The power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with inflation of the kind that faces us is limited. It is true that by running a Budget deficit he can exacerbate it, but I do not believe that he can cure it by a Budget surplus, no matter how great it may be. I agree with the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities that if we increased taxation with the people in their present frame of mind, demanding an entirely unreal standard and trying to get it by wage increases, that taxation increase would merely be followed by a general demand for increased monetary wages and by disinvestment. That also undoubtedly is an objection to abolishing the subsidies.
  Until we can get across to the people that their demands are outside the scope of reality and that they cannot force up their standard by forcing up wages and by disinvesting, we shall remain in this difficulty. Nobody can blame this Chancellor of the Exchequer, because nobody has spoken more forthrightly on this subject and with greater courage. What has he gained? Snarls and sneers from the whole of the Press, who have nicknamed him "Austerity Cripps." A fortnight ago, the "Observer," which is

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  regarded as a reputable newspaper, sank to the level of gutter journalism by describing the Chancellor's policy as "misery for misery's sake." One man's voice cannot carry against the united denigration of the whole Press.
  The attitude of the Press has been backed up by hon. Gentlemen opposite. They have exploited every difficulty for party purposes. Food rationing, potato rationing, basic petrol, and every difficulty which the Government have struck they have tried to pretend was due to Government blundering. When we suffered along with the rest of the world from the postwar shortage of food and raw materials, it was trumpeted as Government incompetence. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should remember that we cannot get the real facts across to the people unless they are prepared to sink party advantage. The problem with which we are faced is psychological, although its methods and its operation may be financial. Fundamentally, it is psychological.
  It is a problem that no party can meet. It can be met only if every party is prepared to say clearly and definitely that the cause of our present trouble is worldwide, that the world itself is poorer and that, party advantage or not, these troubles which have come upon us would have come upon us no matter which Government had been in office.
  5.6 p.m.
  Sir Stanley Holmes: It has been my privilege on more than one occasion to follow the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson). I always find it difficult to speak after him and to enter into the cut and thrust of vehement debate. He always very interestingly ambles slowly through the pastures of economics, and one finds that it is very agreeable to listen to him. I shall ignore the outburst at the end of his speech, which was something quite new for him and may be allowed to waste itself upon the evening air. I am going to follow the example of my right hon. Friend the Senior Burgess for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) and say one or two things in favour of the Budget and then one or two things against it.
  The first thing, which I do not think has been referred to so far, is the gratification of many of us on this side of the House at the reduction in the Entertainments Duty
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  on sports and living entertainment. The Committee may remember that in 1945, on the first Budget which was opened by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), an Amendment was put down in my name on behalf of the M.C.C., the Football Associations of England, Scotland and Wales, and of 137 national bodies which were concerned, wholly or in part, with physical recreation, urging him to reduce the Entertainments Duty upon living sports and entertainment. On that occasion, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that the Chancellor could not do anything but would think about it. We divided the Committee and we reduced the Government's majority to its lowest up to that time, in the new Parliament.
  The result was that in the Budget of the following year, 1946, a reduction was made in the duty. Now a further reduction has been made by the new Chancellor. I am sure that the clubs concerned will be very grateful for it. I would point out to the Chancellor that by following the action of his predecessor he has absolved a great many Members upon his benches from the danger of getting into trouble for breaking their pledges. Two very important pledges were made by them at the time of the General Election. One was in regard to friendly societies and the other was in regard to Entertainments Duty upon sports and games. At any rate, if they have not been put right with regard to friendly societies, they have been put right so far as their football and cricket clubs are concerned.
  I want to add a word to what my right hon. Friend has already said today with regard to the increase in the earned income allowance and the increase from £75 to £200 in the amount of income taxed at 6s. in the pound. This, undoubtedly, will be an incentive to people to do additional work. Those of us who are engaged in industry and have factories under our control know what dissatisfaction has been felt in the last few years when men and women have worked overtime and found that half or almost half of the extra money they thought they had earned has been deducted from their pay and handed over to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The raising of this earned income allowance will mean that a man with a wife and two children who is earning £7 a week will be able to earn £3 on over-

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  time without having to pay hardly any tax upon it. It will be different for single men of course: their income tax limit will be different; but that will be the general effect, that nearly everybody with a moderate income, an income of up to £8 a week, will be able to do some overtime and get the full money for it. That will certainly act as an incentive.
  There is a thing to which I want to refer which is felt throughout the whole of industry. It is the fact that the quality and quantity of work which is done in the course of a day by the average worker are not as great as they used to be. I can quite understand that that is partly due to the fact that in 1945 we had a new Government, a new Government which, with the trades unions that supported them, had as their programme higher wages and shorter hours. Our people worked wonderfully during the war, and the war situation urged them on. The country was in danger, and that was an incentive to work. There is however, no longer the incentive to work, and the whole tendency since the war, and after all the efforts of the war, and because of the weariness caused by the war, has been that workers should not only have higher wages, and should not only have shorter hours, but that they should not work as hard during the hours at which they are at work. I do hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) called the overlord of our economic life, will add to the other things he is endeavouring to do at the present time an exhortation to the workers of the country to put in as good a day's work as they possibly can, and so increase production.
  The Chancellor said—I am not sure whether it was in the Budget speech itself or in his broadcast on the same day—that we wanted to give encouragement to the producer. It is not only the worker, man or woman, who is the producer. In every successful business there are people who are in high executive positions. Nothing has been done for them. They are getting big salaries, and most of them deserve their salaries; and they are highly taxed. They may pay Income Tax and Surtax. Practically no concession of any kind has been given to them. What I want to suggest to the Financial Secretary—and
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  I hope he will communicate the suggestion to the Chancellor—is that these people should be encouraged. If there were an increase in the limit of the earned income allowance they would be helped. At the moment the earned income allowance is up to only £400. I think that for these particular people a higher limit might be put; or, alternatively, whatever their earned income allowance might be, it should be allowed for Surtax as well as for Income Tax. That might be an alternative way of doing this.
  I come next to the Special Contribution, which I oppose equally with other Members on this side of the Committee. It is, as my right hon. Friend said today, a sop to Cerberus, just as the tax on bonus shares last year was a sop to Cerberus. Doubt has been expressed by more than one as to whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer can carry out, with regard to the Special Contribution, his promise that it is to be exacted once and once only. So far as I can see, he is not likely to be able to commit a future Chancellor, especially if he has nothing more to do with the government of the country. I am willing to say, however, that I believe that the right hon. and learned Gentleman's character is such that so long as he remains in a Socialist Government, whether as Chancellor or whether in some other office, he will never allow that Government to repeat this Special Contribution, having regard to the pledge that he gave on Tuesday.
  We had an intervention yesterday by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) who spoke patronisingly of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and who patted himself on the back with both hands—a very characteristic performance. Then he proceeded to advocate what I may call a full capital levy. The first thing I want to ask with regard to that is, Why did he not ever once, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, from the summer of 1945 until the time when he resigned—why did he never once in tips Chamber say one word in favour of putting on a capital levy? If a capital levy is desirable today it was far more desirable two years ago. It would have yielded far more. There has been a very big fall in values in the last year. Were any capital levy put on at the present time, it would yield less than a capital levy would have yielded a year or two ago. If it would be any good today in the battle

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  to stop inflation, as the right hon. Gentleman said, then it would have been good for stopping inflation, which we have needed to do, during the last two years.
  We have had a capital levy in this country since the days of Sir William Harcourt, namely, Death Duties. In my opinion, that sort of capital levy is the only one which would not cause chaos in the country, for the very obvious reason that when a man dies the Death Duties have to be paid on his estate, the requisite amount on his estate has to be realised, and the rest of the community are able to buy his shares, chattels, or whatever it may be. Therefore, the executors are able to dispose of the necessary amount of his property, and the Chancellor gets a form of capital levy. But if there is to be a capital levy for everybody at the same time, then everybody would be a seller and there would be no buyers, resulting in absolute chaos. It would throw the country into a state of chaos, which would ruin production and cause unemployment. It is a completely impracticable proposal.
  For a few moments I wish to deal with the expenses of directors and employers, and to go a little beyond what anybody else has said so far. I entirely agree with the Chancellor, although I want to develop the subject a little, and to read what the Chancellor said on Tuesday, namely:
  "It is perfectly legitimate, of course, to deduct, by way of expenses, a reasonable expenditure upon necessary entertainment; but this right has been noticeably abused by extension to cover the, ordinary living expenses of many persons, who are either directors or employees of the companies. This must be brought to an end. Under the existing law, it falls upon the Inland Revenue authorities to prove that the payments are not necessary business expenses, and because of the difficulty of substantiating the case it often happens that these payments go untaxed. The majority opinion in industry condemns this practice, but there can be no doubt that many individuals are circumventing the law, and are succeeding in maintaining a lavish standard of living at the cost of the taxpayer." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th April, 1948; Vol. 449, c. 70.]
  He proposes that they are all to come under Schedule E. I agree with the Chancellor in what he is proposing, but I must confess surprise at hearing that the Inland Revenue had not the right to do what they wanted to do. In the company over which I have the privilege to
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  preside there are many cases in which entertainment allowances are given, and, so far as I know, in every case the local inspector of taxes has asked for details, has investigated with great care whether or not the claims were proper, and, on the whole, I think has done it very fairly. These expenses will now come under Rule 9 of Schedule E, which is a very antiquated Rule, as the Committee will see when I read it out.
  "If the holder of an office or employment of profit is necessarily obliged to incur and defray out of the emoluments thereof the expenses of travelling in the performance of the duties of the office or employment, or of keeping and maintaining a horse to enable him to perform the same, or otherwise to expend money wholly, exclusively, and necessarily in the performance of the said duties, there may be deducted from the emoluments to be assessed the expenses so necessarily incurred and defrayed."
  The wording of that Rule, under Schedule E, is much more narrow than Schedule D.
  A case which went to the House of Lords, which will be of interest to hon. Members, is that of Ricketts v. Colquhoun, reported in Volume 10 of Tax Cases, No. 118, in 1925. That case concerned a London barrister, practising in the Law Courts, in the Strand, who was made Recorder of Portsmouth. He claimed to be allowed the cost of travelling to and from Portsmouth, and the hotel costs incurred while he was on his recordership. The case went to the House of Lords, and in my mind—I have read the judgments of the Lord Chancellor, Lord Cave, and Lord Blanesburgh—there is no doubt that the judges felt that the appeal should be allowed. It would have been allowed under Schedule D; and it would be allowed today under Rule 10, because I think the Treasury would give permission. However, it was not allowed under Rule 9 because of the words:
  "in the performance of the duties of the office."
  Lord Cave said, in the course of his judgment:
  "They are incurred as expenses, not in the course of performing those duties, but partly before he enters upon them and partly after he has fulfilled them."
  On that ground the appeal was dismissed. I ask the Chancellor to consider carefully whether Rule 9 should not be redrafted. Certainly the reference to the horse might be taken out.
  In this regard a very apposite example is that Members of Parliament are allowed

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  expenses for stopping in London or in their constituencies while on their duties, in just the same way as the recorder, about whom I have just spoken, was claiming for expenses incurred in stopping in a hotel at Portsmouth while on his legal duties. At the moment Members of Parliament, although they come under Schedule E, do not come under Rule 9, because a new Rule No. 10 was made permitting the Treasury to allow Members of Parliament to claim expenses for material work, stationery, cost of living, and so on. But is it right to make a rule for Members of Parliament that they can charge up living expenses when they are in London or in their constituencies, while various other people, such as recorders, have to go about the country on their business and yet be shut out from claiming allowances under Rule 9? I hope that this matter will be considered by the Chancellor.
  Finally, I refer to what the Chancellor said about the Marshall Plan. We all appreciate, as he did, the wonderful gesture which has been made by our friends on the other side of the Atlantic. I hope that what is to come from Marshall Aid will not be wasted, as was the American Loan. Personally, I blame the former Chancellor of the Exchequer for putting us in the mess we are in today. Economically, we were in exactly the same position in December, 1945, when the American Loan was granted, as in August last, when the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was Minister for Economic Affairs and put out his appeal to the country. If the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, or any member of the Government had in December, 1945, called the attention of the country to the economic position and had called for an all-out effort, and the Loan had been used not just to keep us going by means of borrowed money for the past two years, but for capital expenditure, such as rebuilding and re-equipping our factories and rehabilitating our railways, which had become worn out as a result of the magnificent work they did during the war, I have no hesitation in saying that today we should not be talking about whether we shall get through this crisis, but we should already have got through it.
  At the end of the war, our country had a prestige in the world such as it never had before. Everyone felt that we had
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  done a grand job during the war. We had stood alone for a period and had fought from the beginning to the end, coming out victorious. No country could have borne a greater burden. But ever since, our reputation and prestige in the world has been falling. If, in 1945, we had then pulled ourselves together by re-establishing production and stopping up the gap between exports and imports, our prestige would have risen still further in the eyes of the people of the world. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is bearing a very heavy burden and he has done all that he can lately in the economic sphere to face the realities of the situation and put right the errors and omissions of the past. We can only hope that he will be successful, and that those behind him will loyally back him up.
  5.35 p.m.
  Miss Bacon: The most animated part of the speech of the hon. Member for Harwich (Sir S. Holmes) was when he called upon the workers to work harder. It is always very easy to exhort others to put in an extra effort, but millions of our people today are putting in a very great effort and are accomplishing magnificent achievements. The hon. Member also said that we had wasted the American Loan, and suggested that in December, 1945, we were in exactly the same position as in August last. The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) also said that the situation would have been much better today if it had been differently handled during the last 2½ years. I have recently re-read the Debate which took place in December, 1945, on the Censure Motion moved by the party opposite. I noticed that right hon. Gentlemen opposite were then saying that that was the time to put more goods into the shop windows, or, in other words, not to look to the future.
  I do not suppose that any Budget proposals please everyone, but if we grumble at the 10 per cent. with which we disagree, forgetting the 90 per cent. with which we agree, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will realise that it is merely the British way of life and the privilege we seem to have. It always appears, in considering a Budget, that it is much better to receive than to give. It has been stressed throughout this Debate that these are not normal times. We cannot

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  consider this Budget as we considered Budgets in normal times before the war; we have to judge how far it helps the economic situation and closes the gap between exports and imports. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had had a surplus in the ordinary way, he could have reduced taxation or have allowed higher public expenditure, but on this occasion he has found it very difficult to do either of these things, because reducing taxation means more purchasing power when we have not the goods, and allowing a higher amount of public expenditure, means using manpower and materials of which we are in short supply. Therefore, any extra purchasing power which is made available must be for those who need it most and where we can definitely show that it helps production.
  Judged by these standards, this Budget has a great deal to commend it, but there are certain things we must criticise. Taken as a whole, the Budget is a good and a very clever one. It is inevitable that the smaller items should tend to stand out and obliterate some of the larger ones. I am opposed, in particular, to the increased taxation on tobacco and beer. The taxes on tobacco and beer will be unpopular—they always are—but I wonder if they are really worth while on this occasion. The former Chancellor of the Exchequer said that putting up the price of a packet of 20 cigarettes by 1s. had not had the effect for which he had hoped. Can we expect, therefore, that the same effect will come about by increasing the price by 2d? I was pleased the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he would enable old age pensioners to have an increased allowance to offset the increase in price of tobacco, but there are many old people who do not qualify for this particular concession, which applies only to those in receipt of State pensions. There are many old people not in receipt of State pensions who have to exist on a very small amount of money. If the Chancellor could extend this concession to them, I am sure that it would be very welcome.
  It has also been said that beer, being a luxury, can afford extra taxation. It is a moot point whether beer is really a luxury and not a necessity for some people. I am certain that many miners, steel workers and agricultural labourers
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  would consider that beer, if not an absolute necessity, was, at any rate, an aid to production. That being so, perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer may think again on this point. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) said yesterday that a penny a pint on beer did not matter very much; it was the poor quality of the beer and the shortage of beer which mattered most to beer drinkers. I remember that not long ago my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food justified one of his regulations by saying that, although it had not saved any food, it had been of psychological value. This was greeted with loud laughter from hon Members opposite; but this psychological point is very important. Ministers, to be good Ministers, must also be good psychologists. I think that the great disadvantage of the extra duty on beer and tobacco is that it has a psychological effect on the people from whom we are asking for greater production. There is a tendency for them to say, Well, again, it is the working man's beer and tobacco."
  I welcome the alterations in the Purchase Tax. When we look into the alterations, I think we can agree that the benefits are far more substantial than they appear to be at first sight. They are certainly designed to help housewives a great deal. I think, however, that there ought to be minor adjustments. I am not very happy about the tax on children's non-utility clothing. Also, being a woman, I am not very happy about the tax on utility fully-fashioned stockings. I believe that the Chancellor could well afford to make concessions concerning those articles and perhaps tax a little more some of the luxuries and semi-luxuries.
  There are some people who would like to see the Purchase Tax abolished altogether and all taxes put on income as direct taxes. One of the difficulties the Chancellor has had to face has been to determine the relative proportion of direct and indirect taxes. Many theorists in days gone by thought that direct taxation was the best way. I know that I and many Members on this side of the Committee were brought up to believe that direct taxes were right and indirect taxes were wrong. I have changed my mind about this because, contrary to all theories, men and women seem to prefer

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  indirect taxes. They seem to like to get what they earn and to have an element of choice in the spending of it. In the past few years, this direct burden of Income Tax—the huge sum taken out of wages earned—has caused more grumbling and discontent and lessening of effort by the people than anything else. The major P.A.Y.E. operation at the end of the week has been to some people much worse than having an appendix out, because people wish to get what they earn and do what they like with their own money. They resent the unimaginative and unchallengeable lopping off of nearly half a week's salary by some soulless Shylock whom they seem to confuse with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, always eager for his pound of flesh.
  But this must be borne in mind. First, direct taxation must still be the chief form of taxation on large incomes, and, secondly, there must be no indirect taxation of basic necessities, otherwise the old age pensioner and the low-income person will be the ones to suffer. Contrary to the beliefs of hon. Gentlemen opposite, I believe that one of the best features of the Government's policy today is that, although we have indirect taxation, we have also a system of indirect bonuses in the form of food subsidies and social services. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) has on many occasions said that his party believes in establishing a basic standard of life for everybody in the country. This Government has established that basic standard of life for everybody in the country, and I would like to see the food subsidies not only maintained but increased, so that the people in the lower income groups may have a better standard of living.
  Yesterday, the noble Lord the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) said that he thought this was not the time to bring in the National Health Service. We do not intend to economise on the health services. In fact, I do not see how it will help production in any way, or help to close the gap between imports and exports if we postpone the coming into operation of the National Health Service Act. The noble Lord also criticised money spent on propaganda abroad. I agree that every one wants to save a few dollars; and I maintain that the speeches which the noble
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  Lord made on his recent visit to America were not particularly helpful to this country. Rather than economise on our health services and other services, I would say to the noble Lord that he could at least have saved the country the dollars he spent in going to America and doing this country such great harm.
  I welcome particularly the Income Tax reliefs which have been given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the raising of the exemption limit, which will help pensioners and others. The change in the married woman's allowance removes a grievance, but, quite frankly, I have some doubt as to whether or not it will achieve its objective of getting more married women out to work. The position at present is that a married woman who earns £4 a week receives £3 10s. at the end of her week's work. Under the new scheme, the married woman will receive £3 17s. This is a substantial help, but I am not at all sure that the few shillings extra will be the determining factor as 10 whether or not she will go out to work. There are many factors which a married woman has to take into account in considering whether she will leave her home to go into a factory. She has to consider her children and shopping difficulties.
  A few weeks ago, in the Debate on the manpower situation, the hon. Lady the Member for South Aberdeen (Lady Grant) said that the Government were breaking up home life, and we were returning to the law of the jungle by encouraging married women to go out to work. There are more threats to home life than women going out to work. One of the greatest threats to home life is dire poverty, the kind of dire poverty that we had before the war and which will come again if we cannot get our essential raw materials from overseas. The women of Lancashire and Yorkshire, in the textile areas, have always had to go out to work to earn money to keep the home going, and the fact that today they are no longer in that position is a tribute to the way in which the Government have given full employment, with reasonable wages, to the men folk in those areas. While that lightens the burden for the women, they should be given shopping facilities and should have other provision made to encourage them to go out to work, as well as Income Tax reliefs.
  One criticism of the Budget has been that sufficient has not been given to the

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  lower income groups and a great deal has been given to the middle groups. That may be perfectly true, but we have also to remember that last year and the year before great concessions were given to the lower income groups. There comes a point, however, beyond which it is impossible to give further relief in regard to direct taxation. The Government can help the lower income groups considerably by ensuring that the standard of living is maintained and that the cost of living is kept low. As far as possible we must keep down transport charges and the price of clothes, food and rents. The Government can do more in this way than in any other direction to give something to the lower income groups.
  The British have always responded when they have known what was at stake. The Government must put these measures across in a way that will strike a responsive chord in the minds and hearts of men and women. I am quite sure that if this is done we shall get the results for which we hope; the Budget will be accepted with minor adjustments and the people will go forward to still greater production.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: In rising to make some small contribution to this Debate I crave the kindly indulgence of this Committee which, I understand, is always extended to those who have the honour to address it for the very first time. The main reason for my desire to participate in this Debate is my deep concern that individual enterprise is not just enabled, but very actively encouraged, to play a full part in our economic recovery. People do not yet realise that financial wizardry and all-embracing plans alone cannot restore prosperity. The governing factor, as I see it, is responsible human effort at all levels of our industrial life. To my mind, the only way in which industry can give its greatest service is by the encouragement of private enterprise. I am a product of private enterprise and I respectfully suggest, therefore, that I have some slight knowledge of the subject. I feel certain that the Committee will appreciate my deep conviction that this country must rely on individual enterprise to overcome many of our present difficulties.
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  Happily, I believe, the pioneering spirit which built our British trade and our Commonwealth is still with us. It only needs fair conditions under which to operate. I would remind the Committee that even if the Government carried out their full programme of nationalisation, and if the big industrial units in the private sector still remained, two-thirds of our total production and manufacture would still come from firms employing 250 employees or less. I would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this section of our industrial economy should receive his very special attention and also his encouragement and his assistance. If individual enterprise were given the incentive and help which I shall be suggesting in a few moments we could go a long way towards extricating ourselves from our present difficulties and we should not need so much help from abroad.
  I am somewhat encouraged to press home my suggestions because lately the Government have repeatedly turned to the private industrial sector for co-operation and for help in their difficulties; but I want to see this carried very much further. I hope the Government will seriously consider the advice shortly to be given to them by industries regarding the relaxation and operation of controls. I urge the Government to be bold and to throw over every control whose retention cannot be proved to the satisfaction of the industries concernd to be in the public interest.
  So far, I have spoken only of production, but selling is equally important. No doubt the Government were right to set export targets as long as they were sensible and reasonable, but the Government far too slowly made trade agreements with other countries which would enable us to sell in those countries. Evidence of this was to be seen when the targets were set, for at that time there were some hundred countries to which we were either unable to export at all or to which we could export only with the very greatest difficulty. My view is that the Government function should end with the fixing of trade agreements and the arranging of efficient consular services. My own experience is that a successful export trade is entirely a personal matter, bound round good faith and confidence between busi-

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  ness houses in this country and business houses abroad. No such spirit can possibly be created or maintained by the dictates of any Government Department.
  I have always maintained that the present Government overstepped its rightful function of administration by entering into industry via nationalisation. By so doing they placed themselves in a position to use their very great powers—and, indeed, their financial resources—to compete with individual enterprise, instead of supporting and assisting it. Another unfair disadvantage to the private traders of today is undoubtedly the privileged taxation position which is granted to the Co-operative Societies.
  Now that our export trade is meeting competition and we must produce at the very lowest prices it is imperative that we cease the inefficient, costly bulk buying method by civil servants who are completely unfitted, both by training and by outlook, in many respects for these tasks. I maintain that industrial experts who know the work should be given the task. If so, our country would benefit materially, both by lower prices and by better terms. At the present time much of our competitive bargaining is lost. The Government must realise that such buying is often closely related to selling. The closer the contact the more successful our trading is likely to be, and the Government must also realise that industry cannot carry on its functions at second or third hand in both directions and with a Government Department interposed at both ends of what must be a two way street.
  I do not want anybody to misunderstand me as advocating a complete divorcement between industry and the Government. Lately, particularly over the last few years, there has been a need for a growing co-operation. However, cooperation is a very different matter indeed from control and nationalisation. I would appeal to the Government to go further in taking industry into their confidence and in seeking their help, for such would not be abused nor the assistance withheld. Specially do I want help and incentives for the smaller industrial units. I want the widest distribution of interests and responsibilities. I believe that the preservation of the number of smaller units would result in far better industrial relationships between managements and workers. Mere size and efficiency to my
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  mind are not synonymous. I hope that this Government will wisely encourage the smaller manufacturers and smaller traders of this country, for soon they will realise that nationalisation as such, will destroy the spirit both of human endeavour and of enterprise.
  I notice regretfully that in this Budget there is no encouragement whatsoever to private enterprise in the way of tax reduction or other incentives. I suggest that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer really wishes to sponsor the development of individual enterprise with all its resulting benefits to our community and to our country, he might consider the concession of half the standard rate of Income Tax on retained profits in small businesses up to £2,500 per annum. For whatever sacrifices there would be in revenue, such incentive would undoubtedly bring great results both in new products and in new developments upon which, I would remind the Committee, we must mainly rely to hold our own in world trade in future.
  Finally, I wish that similar encouragement to that which I have desired to be given to individual enterprise at home should be extended equally to those with a spirit of enterprise in the development of our great Commonwealth. The idea of Government schemes in our colonial development are in themselves very good and very sound, but to my mind they can never replace the efforts and the achievements of the individual who, should he wish to share in the development of our great Empire and Commonwealth, should be given in all ways by the Government both the opportunity and the necessary assistance. Unless we preserve and en courage a spirit of pioneering enterprise by the individual both here and abroad, I fear the outlook for our Commonwealth is very black indeed. If, however, we enable any who can to recover a spirit of adventure and enterprise which made this, great country great, we can rapidly resume our rightful place in the commerce and in the counsels of the world.
  Before I sit down may I express to the Committee my grateful thanks for their kind consideration in that trying moment of a new Member's life in which he makes his first attempt to place certain of his views before what I have heard described as the world's most critical audience.
  6.6 p.m.
  Sir Arthur Salter: It is my duty and my privilege—and in this case it is a very easy duty and a very pleasant privilege—to express appreciation of the speech to which we have just listened. The hon. Member for North Croydon (Mr. F. Harris) developed a forcible and persuasive argument based obviously not only on personal conviction but on direct personal experience. I am sure that we all enjoyed it, and we all hope that we shall often listen to him in the future. He will pardon me if I do not follow him in regard to that argument which for the most part dealt with our economic problems, because I am anxious to speak only of the Budget, and in particular of one of its aspects, namely, its relation to the inflationary pressure which is at present distorting our economy.
  The Chancellor has recognised in very grave terms the existence of this inflationary pressure, and has described very lucidly the evil consequences that follow from it. He has also pointed out that serious as that pressure is, and has been throughout the last year, it has been relieved by the fact that in this last year we imported no less than £675 million worth of goods, which were not paid for by current production here. He pointed out, rightly, that to the extent to which this year we are reducing our overseas deficit this inflationary pressure, which we must counter in some way, will be increased. He said that, as against that extra pressure, there will be, of course, the counter-inflationary effect of the cuts in capital investment. I do not think myself that those cuts will be sufficient. We must also recognise that among those economies in capital investments some, though only some, are also included in the Budget expenditure, and are therefore a factor in the Budget surplus. We must be careful not to reckon their counter-inflationary effect twice over. If we take that into account, it seems to me doubtful whether, apart from any effect of this Budget, we shall be even countering by the other measures of the Government the increased inflationary pressure that we must expect for the reason the Chancellor gave. Certainly, that would be the best we could hope would happen as a result of these other measures.
  It is, therefore, common ground on all sides of the Committee that this Budget
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  ought to have a substantial counter-inflationary effect. On balance, I do not think it will have, for reasons that I propose to give. We listened earlier this afternoon to a very interesting speech from the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson). I do not agree with everything he said, but I agree with a great deal of it. I agreed with him when he analysed the causes of our present condition as coming mainly from the fact that people were demanding and securing constant increases in wages and other forms of spendable income without there being a corresponding increase in production. I agreed with him when he said that every item contributing to a surplus in the Budget does not necessarily have a counter-inflationary effect. He illustrated this by going through the various items which contribute to the surplus. Conversely, he pointed out that some that had an immediate inflationary effect were not in the last resort inflationary. I agree with him. I do not propose to follow him in all the items which he discussed, but propose only to consider the new proposals, whether for extra taxation or relief of taxation, in this Budget.
  The first, and in some ways the most important, of these are the increases in the taxes on alcohol and tobacco which are designed to bring in £64½ million of extra revenue this year. These may be criticised from other points of view, as, for example, increasing a burden perhaps already too heavy. It is indeed a very amazing fact that people who drink and smoke, in their capacity as such, and quite apart from the taxation which they share with other citizens, are contributing to the extent of over £1,000 million of revenue; that is to say, Ready one-third of the total revenue of the State, a sum greater than that of the total revenue of the State 10 years ago, and a sum so great that if they suddenly ceased to drink and smoke, all other taxation would have to be increased by nearly 50 per cent. to compensate for the loss. That is an amazing figure.
  I am sure that every Chancellor, even the most austere, and even if he were himself a teetotaller and a non-smoker, must congratulate himself and the Treasury upon the fact that, though he does not himself like cakes and ale, his fellow citizens are not so virtuous. The Chancellor must be very glad indeed that

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  people are the victims of these vices to the extent to which they are. If he regards them as vices, he must reflect with Mandeville that very often private vices are public virtues. I remember hearing that an old French woman who made her living by selling tobacco was asked during the great depression how she was getting on. She said, "Not so badly, Sir; you see, I have the great good fortune to have my business founded upon the most stable of all foundations—one of man's principal vices." If that is true in her humble business, it is certainly true of the finance of this country.
  From those points of view these increases might be criticised. But from the point of view from which I am now speaking, they are certainly counter-inflationary. I do not think that the increases contemplated are such as really to increase the danger of a demand for extra wages, and I think we may fairly say, on the credit side of the account, from the point of view from which I am now speaking, that these two increases are counter-inflationary to the full extent of the sum they are intended to produce, namely, just over £60 million. That is their advantage.
  I was sorry, however, to hear the Chancellor say, as his predecessor did, that he wanted an increase in the rate of tax on tobacco in order to reduce the consumption. If indeed that were the effect to a substantial extent, I am sure that the country would lose rather than gain. When the previous Chancellor introduced his increased rate, it was estimated to mean a saving of £7,500,000 worth of dollars and a gain to the revenue of ten times that amount, £75 million, and he said he did it for the purpose of saving dollars. I remarked then that it was surely better to save £10 of the inflationary excess by adding that amount to the Revenue than to save £1 directly on the purchase of tobacco. That comment has been amply endorsed by the economists, including Sir Hubert Henderson, who have discussed the question since. It is equally true of the Chancellor's present advocacy of the increase in the Tobacco Duty. That is a minor matter, however; and as a counter-inflationary factor, there is no doubt whatever that this £64,500,000 can be counted on the credit side.
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  I come now to the Special Contribution, as it is called. It is indeed a real capital levy on all capital, with the exclusion of non-earning capital and, of course, with the exclusion also of small holdings of capital. With those exceptions, it is a full and real capital levy in the triple sense that it is additional to all ordinary taxation, that it is announced as once-for-all and that it will in fact be paid off in the form of capital realisation. That character of the tax is not in any way changed by the fact that, for obvious and indisputable administrative convenience, it will be assessed in relation to investment income and not upon a directly made valuation of capital itself. I do not believe that on balance this tax will be counter-inflationary to any extent whatever. I believe that, as far as counter-inflation is concerned, its effect will be negligible, nil or negative. The Economic Secretary said last night that he believed that on balance it would be counter-inflationary. He spoke with studied and obviously wise restraint in the choice of his words. I believe, on the contrary, speaking with equal restraint, that on balance it will not be in any degree whatever counter-inflationary. I would like to give my reasons for that.
  Of course, it is true, as the hon. Member for Chesterfield said, that an item which contributes to a surplus in the Budget is not necessarily anti-inflationary. It depends upon the effect of the particular charge or relief of taxation on the conduct of the citizens in regard to spending, saving and incentive. This tax is obviously a disincentive, not so much to effort as to enterprise, and enterprise of the most productive and remunerative kind. As regards spending, let us look at the people who are actually affected. It falls on 125,000 people. What will be the typical reaction of a member of that category?
  At this moment he has an expenditure which is appropriate to his present income, after allowance for taxation and whatever he may be contributing to savings. He is now faced with a sudden and severe demand which he is told by the Chancellor is once-for-all for this year. In those circumstances, is he going to change his establishment, dismiss his servants and alter the scale of his expenditure, or will he say, "Well, this is a once-for-all levy. I will deal with it this year by the obvious method. I must stop my

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  contributions to savings, realise my past savings and sell such capital as I have in order to get over the year"? I do not say that will be the case to the extent of 100 per cent., but that is how the greatest part of the Special Contribution will be met, and to that extent it does nothing whatever to reduce inflation.
  Now, instead of looking at the 125,000 actual victims who will pay this tax, let us look at the several millions who are contributing to the savings campaign. What will be the effect upon them? I am afraid that they will have less regard to the present Chancellor's promise that this is a once-for-all contribution than to the former Chancellor's menace as to what will happen later, the menace of a repetition, a continuance, an increase in range and severity. The effect upon the millions whose savings may in future be affected will be serious. I cannot imagine anyone thinking that the total amount of reduction of spending power in this next year on the part of those who are directly affected by this will be as great as the total effect of the discouragement of savings from all other people. If that is so, then the net effect of this tax is inflationary and not counter-inflationary.
  It has, of course, particularly if it is repeated and continued, many other serious results. In the first place, it makes a distinction—and in view of the overwhelming administrative arguments it is bound to do so—against income-earning capital and in favour of dead, unproductive capital. It therefore adds one more handicap to enterprise which is prepared to risk itself in a productive venture. It handicaps precisely the pioneering, productive and most valuable element in the whole of our system. That is the most serious further disadvantage of this tax.
  What is the reason for it? It adds £50 million to the Budget surplus of this year and, in a full year, £105 million. But what is the purpose of a Budget surplus? There is only one justification, a very sufficient one, for a large Budget surplus; it is that it should act as a counter-inflationary measure. If, however, this contribution of £50 million or ultimately £105 million, does not serve that purpose, as I argued, then it has no justification of that kind, and all the other damage is left as a net result without return or reward.
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  That, I believe, will be the net effect of this proposal. I can only conclude regretfully and, having regard to the character of the present Chancellor, with great surprise, that the purpose of this tax on the whole is not counter-inflationary but political.
  So much for the two main items which are designed to be counter-inflationary. Coming to the other items, we have a series of tax remissions—Purchase Tax, Entertainments Duty, concessions to married women in industry and, of course, the Income Tax reliefs. I do not say they are to be condemned for this reason, but they are all in their direct effect inflationary. It may be that they will to some extent serve as an incentive, and the extent to which they increase output is something that reduces inflation from the other side. But looking at the actual character of these reliefs and concessions, does anyone really think that they will this year reduce the direct and immediate inflationary effect, which is of the order of over £100 million, to the point at which the net inflationary effect will be less than the £60 million-odd of counter-inflationary force from the alcohol and tobacco taxes? I should think it is extremely unlikely.
  Therefore, I think it is right to say that on balance, as I think the hon. Member for Chesterfield said, this Budget, if anti-inflationary at all, is only so to a very limited extent. I agree with him in believing that the main cure for inflation must come from outside actual Budget measures. But I also think that the Budget must play its part, and that this Budget could have made a substantial contribution to counteracting inflation. I do not think it will do so, and I agree with the hon. Member in anticipating that, so far from a reduction in the present inflationary position, all the measures that the Government have taken so far leave us with the prospect that in this next year inflation will be greater rather than less. That is a terrifying and indeed a serious position. I think the main reason this Budget does not help substantially in that situation is that the Chancellor has relied so largely upon one very big tax, the capital levy, which in net result does not have that effect at all.
  Let us put the whole of this problem in the proper perspective by remembering again that the very fact that we are successful, as we must hope we shall be,

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  in reducing our overseas deficit will in itself be increasing our domestic inflationary pressure, and that therefore we want every possible means to counteract that force. We have nothing in sight at present which will, at the best, do more than arrest the inflation somewhere where it is at present. I agree with the hon. Member for Chesterfield that we are not doing even that, and I deeply regret that on the counter-inflationary side of these proposals, the Chancellor should have included as his main item a tax which will not help to secure this result.
  6.28 p.m.
  Mrs. Castle: The interesting feature of this Debate has been the restrictive scale on which the Opposition attack has developed. After all, we are discussing the whole economic and financial situation of this country. We are taking a comprehensive annual survey, more comprehensive than anything we have yet attempted of a similar kind, and yet we have had nothing but minor criticisms advanced against the Budget which has been introduced. I think we can take it as a remarkable tribute to the astonishing internal stability of this country that on this occasion, giving the opportunity it does to hon. Members opposite, the criticisms we have heard today and yesterday have been criticisms of detail.
  Even the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), the giant of the Opposition in today's Debate, had to pay a tribute to the Budget and to concentrate merely on minor details of criticism. Characteristically enough, of course, we heard from him of the disastrous effects of the capital levy and the favourable effects of an abolition of the food subsidies, but that was the main tenor of his attack. Therefore, to cover his nakedness, he concluded his speech with a rather discursive and vague lecture to the Government and to hon. Members on this side on the necessity of looking facts in the face, and shaking his head over the present plight of this country. The only facts which a Conservative is prepared to look in the face are those which are unfavourable to a Labour Government. I suggest this afternoon that at this stage we should ask the country to look at facts which so far have not been brought into the limelight, and to hearten ourselves and
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  take pride in the present remarkable situation of the country and of the advances we have managed to achieve.
  We were all very impressed with the sincere and passionate plea made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) and we all felt a response to his sincerity. I certainly agreed with him when he said that the main problem in dealing with inflation and in securing a greater production drive is psychological. But what is the type of psychology we ought to be adopting in this situation? What is the sort of note we should be striking which is likely to get the best response from our people in order to enable the country to win through? It is perfectly true that we are in great difficulties and facing serious dangers, but I think the psychological note we ought to be striking is that we have made great economic progress.
  We should be striking a note of hope and encouragement, because we are dealing with ordinary human beings who are not living, as we are, in a world of White Papers, Blue Books and statistics, but in human hopes and fears. If we go to them and say, "Woe, woe, disaster, things are very grim, the prospects are very black," they are far more likely to say, "To blazes with it, we will go to the dog races." If we go to them and say, "We are making progress, steady and encouraging advances. It is not the whole road by any means, but we are on the right road, and can see the way out. Give a little more, give us that extra effort, and there will be success"—that I believe is the only psychological appeal to produce the sort of response we want to get.
  I suggest to the Committee that some very remarkable evidence has quite recently been published, which gives a factual basis on which to make this approach to the people. I have spent a good deal of time studying with care the report of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, published a couple of days ago. That Report is a useful complement to our own national Economic Survey and it enables us to put our problems, difficulties and progress in the context of the whole European struggle. If we do that we find proof that not only has this country made a remarkable recovery compared with the

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  other countries of Europe, suffering the same sort of difficulties and facing the same sort of hardships, not only have we made a far greater comparative recovery, but one which offers hope of real and absolute success in the long run. If we go through the tables of that Report we find item after item showing that this country is on the right lines in its economic policy, and in the Report there is a perfect justification for the economic policy this Government have pursued since they came into Office, and of the financial policy of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and his predecessor.
  Sir A. Salter: I have also read that Report. The hon. Lady does not forget the emphasis placed on inflation and the extent of our overseas deficit, which means the extent to which we have been living on other people's money in the last year?
  Mrs. Castle: I was just coming to that, and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman reminded me, because it is a point I wanted to quote as proving my claim that the financial policy of this country has been on successful lines in combating inflation. Whether we look at comparative figures for industrial or agricultural production in postwar Europe, or the export drive of this country, or our success in checking inflation and in controlling prices in this country, we find that, whereas in Europe a variety of different policies have been adopted for the solution of the common problem, taken by and large our policy has been the most successful.
  Sir A. Salter: Belgium?
  Mrs. Castle: Yes, even including Belgium. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman mentioned Belgium, because I was going to quote the figures for Belgium given in the Report.
  Let us take first the level of industrial production in Europe in 15 countries which were responsible for 77 per cent. of industrial production in 1938. Taking 1938 as 100, the level of industrial production for the whole of those 15 countries reached by the third quarter of 1947 was 99. On the other hand, Great Britain herself reached 109, and Belgium, which has been quoted frequently in this House and in the Conservative Press as
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  a shining light of recovery, reached 102. Sweden, another country which has been quoted as making miraculous recovery, has a figure of 103, and poor unhappy France has a figure of 96. France is a country in which controls have broken down and food subsidies have never been brought to the rescue of the industrial worker. I was in France only a short time ago and I was told by the manager of a very large motor works that his workpeople had to spend 80 per cent. of their wages on the necessary minimum of food. In that country the industrial recovery has been far below that of this country.
  If we take agricultural production, in which many other European countries have always been ahead of Great Britain, and in which they have specialised, we find that for 1946–47, 23 countries who between them were responsible for 90 per cent. of prewar European production are listed, the same index figure of 100 for prewar is taken. The United Kingdom has a figure of 106, compared with Belgium 63, Sweden 103, and France 73.
  Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Has the hon. Lady the comparative figures for agricultural production in this country in 1944–45?
  Mrs. Castle: No, it was not given in this particular table. I believe I am correct in saying that it was not in the Report, and that it only gives the latest available figure which, after all, I should have thought was of most interest to us in this situation. We are concerned with what we are eating now and what we are producing now.
  If we take those countries as a whole, the total for the 23 countries, excluding Germany, was 76, compared with the index figure of 100 for 1938, and compared with Britain's figure of 106. Britain has found its way to a solution which Europe as a whole must adopt, if it is to survive, and the Report implies that we have found our way ahead of others to a concentration in this difficult period on the building up of our export trade and have shown a most remarkable national discipline, which has not been equalled anywhere else in Europe. If one takes the ratio of imports to exports in the first nine months of 1947 compared with 1938, taking the figure for that year

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  as too, one finds that the rest of Europe, excluding Germany, had built their imports up to above prewar level—to 107, and that their exports were still below the prewar level, standing at 68. Britain's imports, on the other hand, stood at 77 per cent. of her prewar figure and her exports at 106.
  That has been done by the Government of a country which has been subject to abuse of the most frivolous and fractious kind, abuse which has tried to tell the people of this country that we frittered away the American Loan, that we lived hand to mouth in reckless gaiety. This has been done in the teeth of Opposition exploitation of every byproduct of unpopularity arising from this policy. It has only been done as a result of remarkable national discipline. There has been deliberate party exploitation at a time when those concerned in that exploitation knew that there was only one remedy. Europe has to follow in our footsteps, has to have the courage we have had and to do what Britain has done. It is significant, too, to note that if one takes the ratio of exports to the commodities available, here again Britain is in the lead. Dealing with the period from July, 1946, to June, 1947, the Report says that the United Kingdom is the
  "only one of the countries listed which had succeeded, during the period covered, in restoring exports to a level commensurate with the pre-war relationship to the total volume of the commodities available."
  Of course that has not been done without some hardship at home. We have had to say to our people, "put up with short-term hardship in order to get long-term recovery." But even though there has been hardship—and none of us on this side of the Committee would underestimate it—none the less, as a result of the careful husbandry of the finances of this country and the planning of its production, we have managed to protect our people from the most dreadful of the hardships and insecurities which are bedevilling Europe today.
  If hon. Members do not believe me, let them turn again to the Report. One of the measures of that hardship is the level of prices. When we talk today in this House of inflation, as we have a right to talk and must talk, do not let us run away with the position. If we look at our performance in maintaining stability
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  and compare it with what is happening in other countries in Europe, we find that the ogre of inflation is not half the nightmare here which it is to many a housewife in many other European countries.
  Mr. Spearman: In spite of the hon. Lady's jubilation, would she not agree that our difficulties today are due not only to our not producing enough but to the fact that we are producing the wrong things? We are not producing the necessities which our people want and the exports which the hard currency countries require.
  Mrs. Castle: As a matter of fact we are an outstanding example of a country which has avoided an undue and wasteful concentration on luxuries. I am not saying that we are perfect; I am not saying that we have not to do more; that is cot my plea. I say that we have every right to take heart from what we have done, and I say that this Report and its evidence is proof that we are now on the right lines, and that we must continue on those lines along which we have started.
  I am not going to be sidetracked on the question of prices in which the housewife is so interested. I think that the housewife should know what the Report says. It states:
  "With the exception of a few countries, among which the United Kingdom is conspicuous, prices in all European countries have risen faster than those of the United States. …"
  In fact, throughout the whole of this Report we will find that we are conspicuous for our success. We are envied for our internal stability. When I am asked what is the secret of that success and that internal stability, I say it depends on two things, the Government's courage and the people's self-discipline. We have had both.
  I wish very briefly to analyse for a moment what is the basis of this self-discipline which exists in this country to a most remarkable extent. Its most outstanding examples are to be found among the organised workers of this country. The ordinary organised worker in Britain today has a power of protest and a power of resistance which have never been used. There is a remarkable bargaining power among the organised workers which they have voluntarily withheld from bringing into effect. Every time this House dis-

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  cusses economic affairs it should, if it is really "facing up to the facts" of the situation, pay tribute to that remarkable self-discipline among the organised workers. Why have they never exploited this advantage to the extent which they could have done, taking all the factors into acount? Because they are aware that slowly but surely, with some mistakes and setbacks, but none the less inevitably, the Government have been building up Labour's new deal for the ordinary people of this country.
  I want to suggest to the Chancellor that that new deal has two important elements which have been so successful in the past that it would be disastrous for us to abandon them now. The first is that—and we on this side of the Committee face this quite openly—when we came into office we believed that one of the purposes of Government financial and economic control should he deliberately to increase the ordinary worker's relative share of the national wealth, because originally it was far too low and reflected far too inadequately the importance of his—and her—contribution to the production of the national wealth. The second factor in our new deal has been the recognition that we must build up for every person in this country a social minimum, a guaranteed standard of security covering their every day and inescapable requirements, whether rent, food, clothing, housing, education, etc. We have pursued that policy through the social services on the one hand, and through our financial policy on the other.
  I suggest that hon. Members should turn for a moment to the White Paper on the National Income, which will show the full justification for the three main factors in the Chancellor's financial policy today. Let hon. Members turn to Table 4 on page 8, and work out, as I have tried to do, how we are distributing the private income of this country. After the payment of taxes, which is the relevant fact, they will find that whereas in 1938 the share of wages was 37 per cent., by 1947 it had gone up to 42 per cent. a justifiable increase in the share of the national wealth. On the other hand, salaries had dropped from 24 per cent. to 21 per cent. but—and here certain aspects of the Budget legitimately come into play—profits and interest had also risen from 34 to 40 per cent.
  Mr. Drayson: What is the proportion of distributed profits?
  Mrs. Castle: I am talking only about distributed profits. It is the share of the total private income available in private hands after the payment of taxes. That is, after all the Chancellor's depredations upon profits have been made, there is still 40 per cent. of the national income going to profits and interest as compared with 34 per cent. before the war. I suggest that is the justification for the three main planks of the Chancellor's financial policy today, which are, in the first place, the continued move towards increasing the share of the productive worker in the national income; in the second place, giving some reliefs to the hard pressed lower and middle class salary groups—I think he was correct to do that and the table I have quoted shows it was time that they had those reliefs; and thirdly, making profits contribute more than they have in the past.
  When hon. Members opposite say that to put any further burden on profits is taking away incentive from industry I would remind them that there is a remarkably small risk element in profit-making today. A large proportion of the profit-making is cut and dried and handed to the profit maker on a plate. I do not think that that is likely to result in any slackening of our productive effort. At this point I thank the Chancellor most cordially for his reliefs for married women. I would ask the married women of Lancashire to pay attention to them and realise that here is a practical gesture and a demonstration by the Chancellor, who is saying to them, "If you will come back and lend a hand in this productive drive we will see that you reap a fuller reward than you have done in the past."
  I regret that the Chancellor considered it necessary to tax the attractiveness of women's ankles in order to enable them to afford to buy a hat—
  Mr. Cecil Poole: It is the upward look.
  Mrs. Castle: I can only assume that it is a deliberate attempt to distract the attention of hon. Members to more lofty things.
  Mr. Assheton: I would ask the hon. Lady if she has not

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  made a wrong calculation of these figures? If she looks at the bottom of page 8, Table 5, after taxes on income, the interest, profits and rent were lower in 1947 than in 1938. It was only before the tax on income that they were higher.
  Mrs. Castle: I do not think so, but anyway—
  Mr. Assheton: It is so. The figures are there.
  Mrs. Castle: If I have made an error I am sorry.
  One criticism I do want to make of the Chancellor; I wish to join with others who spoke earlier, in saying that I think he has made an error in offsetting the workers' gains through this Budget by an increased levy on beer and tobacco. I do not say that because I am trying to curry any favour with my constituents, but on the basis of principle. I am sure that hon. Members opposite will fully agree. If the Chancellor is attempting, and I think he is attempting, to get a productive response through this Budget, then these are pinpricks which will cause great reaction and resentment and resistance among the workers, out of all proportion to the amount which may be contributed to the revenue. The second point of principle is that these levies on beer and tobacco penalise the lowest sections of income which have already in the past been relieved of Income Tax, and, therefore, do not stand to benefit from the increases in the earned income allowance.
  The Chancellor may say that in this situation we have all to make our contribution. Is he not forgetting that these lower income groups, along with others, have since the last Budget already made an additional contribution through the withdrawal of £33 million worth of subsidies on leather, cotton and wool? Is he not forgetting also, that in the future they will perhaps make increased contributions through the decision to stabilise food subsidies rather than allow them to follow the potential rise in food prices? The increase in utility prices for footwear and clothing have already caused considerable consternation among this class of the community who are feeling the pinch very much at the moment. After all, subsidy is a tax in reverse and if a subsidy is withdrawn then, in effect, a tax is imposed. I maintain
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  that this section of the community, the main proportion of whose income has to be devoted to essentials, are feeling the increased taxation through the withdrawal of the subsidy.
  I would suggest that to tax tobacco still further on the grounds that we really ought not to be smoking dollars is failing to face up to the fairest way in which we can share out the dollar shortage. It comes at a time when we are making concessions on all the other items of dollar expenditure, such as films, petrol and foreign travel. I know that the foreign travel concessions are not directly a question of dollars, but the ban on foreign travel was one of the hardships imposed at the time of the foreign exchange crisis. If necessary, let us have a points system for dollar expenditure so that those who have petrol do not have tobacco or do not go to the cinema. But to just keep piling a tax on tobacco, on the ground that people ought not to smoke dollars, is a "hit or miss" and, in my view, an unfair way of meeting the situation.
  We are strongly behind the Chancellor on the broad lines of his financial policy, and I ask him to have the courage to go forward with that policy, but I would suggest that the Marshall Plan has now come to relieve us of the worst of the hardships that we feared, and I ask whether we could not use the Marshall Plan to enable the workers to share some of the results of their increased productive effort during the coming months. Cannot we recognise that we should at each stage in our productive drive give what we can in the way of concrete rewards? When the situation was bad, as it was last summer, and it was a question of scraping the bottom of the barrel for every dollar, that was a different matter. But now the Marshall Plan has given us some elbow room and I would say: Let us remember that it is human beings to whom we are appealing and that we should at every stage give them some reward for their magnificent and patriotic response.
  6.57 p.m.
  Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: The realism of the observations submitted to the Committee by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) is, I think, best measured by the fact that she went to the length of referring to the right hon. and sartorially

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  conscientious Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) as "naked"—not so naked, however, as the figures which she saw fit to deploy to us. Rarely can an hon. Member taking part in a serious Debate in this House have been shot down in flames so effectively as the hon. Lady who has just addressed the Committee. I do not know what satisfaction her speech will give to her constituents, but there is no doubt about its embarrassment to the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
  Mr. Beswick Mr. Beswick (Uxbridge) rose—
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: No, it is too early for an interruption.
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Butcher): The hon. and gallant Member does not give way?
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: No, I do not give way, Mr. Butcher. The hon. Member will perhaps catch your eye later and may make his observation then—
  Mr. Beswick: I merely wish to join in the shooting competition.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: In the night watches I was searching round for a word suitable to describe the present Budget, and after much cogitation I came to the conclusion that one cannot improve upon the adjective "crippling." It seems to me to be both descriptive and euphonious. The long eloquent discourse to which we listened on Tuesday deserves, I think, the caption familiar in the cinema world, "For Whom The Bell Tolls." The speeches which have followed from both sides of the Committee have struck a lugubrious note throughout these two days. Indeed, only two rays of light have been shed upon our discussions, first, by the Chancellor himself, and again by the hon. Lady in her concluding remarks a moment ago. From this side of the Committee it is indeed significant to observe the sigh of relief on the benches opposite at the launching of the capitalist lifeboat on the other side of the Atlantic. The Socialist Government after nearly three years of office, have placed themselves frankly and unashamedly in the arms of those whom the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) so gratefully described as "shabby moneylenders."
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  But the speech of the Chancellor, lengthy and eloquent as it was, by-passed all the main economic problems with which the country is faced. Before passing to the main proposals of the Budget, I offer a few remarks to the Committee on two other matters. First, I refer to the extremely harsh treatment of an honoured war-scarred veteran in the fiscal world—whisky. I am sorry that the Chancellor is not here, but I have no doubt that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury will be fully capable of following a very simple argument not on the merits of this particular libation, because I see upon me the stern eye of the hon. Member for West Ealing (Mr. J. Hudson) who is already taking notes on the subject, but on the mere principle of differential taxation. A Purchase Tax is imposed on other luxuries—whisky is a luxury—such as diamonds, furs and the like, of 100 per cent. The cost of a bottle of whisky is now to be 33s. 4d. of which 8s. 8d. represents all costs of production, the buying of cereals, distillation and everything else. I have been endeavouring to make a calculation and I think it is reasonably accurate to say that in the case of whisky that approximates to a Purchase Tax of 280 per cent. The Minister will be the first to acknowledge that, from the point of view of the consumer, an Excise Duty and a Purchase Tax come to one and the same thing so far as the pocket is concerned.
  Here is the only commodity which could be shipped for dollars during the war submitted to this entirely differential, heavy penalty at the cost of the home consumer, because the Economic Secretary will be familiar with the recent arrangement by which there is to be a smaller amount available in the home market and a greater amount earmarked for export. While we agree that luxuries have to be taxed at this time, I want to ask why it is no per cent. sinful for the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn to appear in the precincts of the Palace of Westminster wearing a fur coat and 280 per cent. sinful for us to refresh ourselves in the Smoking Room by buying whisky.
  Sir A. Salter: And nearer 1,000 per cent. on tobacco.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I will not develop that. If that is the case, perhaps the Chancellor will give consideration to that point also.

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  I want to say a few words upon a subject which has received no attention so far in this Debate—and I have heard nearly all the speeches. I refer to Postwar Credits. At the Christmas Adjournment there was a short Debate on this subject, initiated by the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd), in which I participated. The hon. Gentleman submitted that the time had come when Post-war Credits should be obtainable on grounds other than that of age and that there ought to be some test of hardship. I have been looking up the Debate which took place when Post-war Credits were introduced in 1941. I am fortunate in having below me the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) who was Financial Secretary to the Treasury at that time. I want first to inflict upon the Committee a short repetition of some remarks which I made on that occasion seven years ago tomorrow—and may I add that I quote myself with the heartiest approval? This is what I said:
  "As it is, the taxpayer is offered, what I am bound to regard with some suspicion—I think it is largely fictitious—what is called a nest egg. I read about this in yesterday's Debate, and I noticed the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh"—
  that is, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, who has now left us for another place—
  "was beginning to take an interest in that nest egg. The scheme will form the foundation of a capital levy. It will be subject to taxation, and in any case the Treasury will probably say to the taxpayer, 'You now have the shell left which we shall set off against your Income Tax liability in the coming year.' Anyone who thinks he is going to collect hard cash for this nest egg after the war is over is, I believe, living in a fool's paradise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April, 1941; Vol. 37o, c. 1624.]
  The gift of prophecy does not often descend upon me, but I think it did then. The late Sir Kingsley Wood, when he replied, said:
  "The credits provided for in the Budget proposals will in effect form a relatively small element in the total situation, but will mean that the power of participating in the postwar expenditure will be more fairly distributed than might otherwise be the case. For instance, Post-war Credits to individuals will go in the main to the small taxpayers, that is to say, to the very people who might be expected to need them most in the post-war conditions."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April, 1941; Vol. 370, c. 1662.].
  That makes it perfectly clear that the
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  National Coalition, in which so many hon. Gentlemen opposite participated, including the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, clearly envisaged these Postwar Credits being released during this period when men were coming out of the Services and when businesses were being rehabilitated. Of course, the situation has altered to a certain extent. We must be frank about that. The Coalition Government could not have foreseen the profligacy of the last two and a half years. They could not have foreseen that this £800 million would be whistled down the wind, that American dollars would be spent on chewing gum and marbles. They could not have foreseen that situation.
  I want to make a plea to the Government—while, of course, the whole of these credits cannot now be released—to reconsider the method and the machinery by which they are paid. Should age really be the only criterion? Is it right that the richest in the land, the men with vast incomes—the names of Lord Nuffield and the Prime Minister spring immediately to mind; men of that type—now in the seventh decade of their life should draw their Postwar Credits while those who encounter difficulties and hardship, and who are much further behind on the road of life, have to wait until they reach the age of 65 or 60? At least, cannot this be done? Cannot the beneficiaries of those who die within the qualifying ages—men of 65 and women of 60—draw the money? Is it right that the Government should hold on to this money? It certainly would not be right in law in any other walk of life that trustees should refuse to pay out to beneficiaries. Cannot that be considered, or if that, too, is impossible, will the Government take a leaf out of their own book and pay interest on these sums until such time as they are in a position to pay out?
  I pass from that topic to the proposal in this Budget which has aroused the greatest interest and I think the greatest criticism, not only here but outside. I refer to the once-and-for-all Special Contribution. Last night, when replying to the Debate in eloquent language, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury expressed surprise that there should be scepticism in any part of the Committee as to the temporary nature of this particular impost. Had the hon. Gentleman sat in the House as long as some of us,

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  he would be familiar with many of these temporary imposts.
  Within the lifetime of those of us here now, the Entertainments Duty in World War No. 1 was a temporary measure, the National Defence Contribution of Mr. Neville Chamberlain, now the Profits Tax, was to be for three years only, the Purchase Tax introduced by Lord Simon was to be a war-time measure, and, although this is not within the memory of those who sit here now, we were reminded yesterday by my noble Friend the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) that Income Tax was a purely temporary expedient to pay for the Napoleonic Wars. All these temporary expedients are still going strong in 1948. So the Committee is perfectly entitled to express some doubt as to the temporary nature of this particular impost.
  May I now turn to its merits and demerits, and may I say at once that I have no financial interest in this matter? I am not one of the 125,000 upon whom this blow will fall. I shall escape scot-free. I will confine myself to a discussion of the principles involved. A few weeks ago—I was absent from London at the time—I read in the Press of an undignified incident in this honourable House, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), in making an intervention on the Representation of the People Bill, said that any Parliament was free to repudiate the legislation of its predecessor, and might even go to the length of repudiating Savings Certificates, whereupon he appears to have been subjected from the benches opposite to the treatment meted out by a small but unsporting minority of those who attend football matches to a successful player on the visiting side. He was, in fact, booed. In making those observations, once again my right hon. Friend was prophetic. What was said during those War Weapons Weeks, Warship Weeks, Wings for Victory Weeks and all the rest has since been repeated by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I remember the Minister of Defence making a most eloquent speech when I had to march past with a naval party and give him a salute of a more deferential nature than when I defeated him in 1931. This is what he said:
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  "Trust the Government. You are investing in British Consolidated Futures. You will get your money back."
  Now it is going to be taken away. Let there be no mistake about it. Savings Certificates will have to be encashed and disinvested to meet this Special Contribution.
  May I give an example from my personal acquaintance? A friend of mine was grievously crippled while fighting in France in the first world war. He was one of three brothers. On his return home, his father, who was well blessed with this world's goods, decided to concentrate his wealth upon this disabled son, leaving the two able-bodied members of the family to fend for themselves. The crippled son had four children, and the father left him almost the whole of a very considerable and comfortable estate. When the second world war came, this man was anxious to help his country again, though unable to fight or be an air raid warden, and even being exempted from firewatching on account of his physical condition. But there was something he could do. He became the secretary of the Savings Campaign in his area, which surpassed every target in those special weeks. He is now being rewarded by a gracious and grateful Socialist Government for his patriotic efforts by having the severest blow in his life struck at him by this particular impost.
  I will tell the Financial Secretary why, because I have more faith in a softening of the heart in his case than in that of the Economic Secretary to the Treasury. This man's income comes almost entirely from rents, which are brought into this Special Contribution. What is he to do to meet the Chancellor's demand? Sell part of a house or one of his properties? It might be requisitioned to house a food inspector, or an official dealing with petrol allocation, or something like that. To meet the right hon. Gentleman's demand, he must sell gilt-edged securities and cash Savings Certificates. I know that there is a limit to the number which can be held. Or—which is most probable of all—he can go to the bank and borrow that money, and the moment he does that he is engaging in an inflationary operation. There must be hundreds of cases not unlike that one up and down the land. This Special Contribution

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  shows the same policy as the tax on undistributed profits. The other day, I met the secretary of a very large manufacturing concern with a fine export trade, and he told me that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken £100,000 out of undistributed profits. They also have borrowed from the bank to start a new contract.
  The Chancellor, in passing, saw fit to pay a tribute to the Co-operative societies for reducing their prices. May I endorse a remark which fell from the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Croydon (Mr. F. Harris), who made such an agreeable and successful maiden speech earlier today? When the Co-operative societies have had a preferential basis in regard to the Profits Tax, they should not be reducing their prices now. Last April when the 1947 Budget was introduced, was the time when they should have reduced their prices. What a contribution to national prosperity. What a parade of virtue after getting away with the swag for 12 months.
  More in sorrow than in anger, I return to a topic to which I have referred on every possible occasion. There is a much simpler method of dealing with an inflationary situation than all these irritating taxes and these imposts which throw so Davy a burden upon the only men who can save this country and get us through—the men who are prepared to take risks and show enterprise.
  Major Bruce: The miners.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Coal may be obsolete a decade hence when atomic energy is developed and the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) is Prime Minister. The hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce) can give us his experiences at the coalface a little later. I have made this point before and I do so for the fourth time, and I shall continue to make it as long as my constituents do me the honour of sending me here.
  Why not grasp the nettle by calling in the Treasury notes? Why not collect these millions of loose money running about the country in black and grey and all different kinds of coloured markets? Why not say that after 1st May—here is an appropriate day; the day of the Labour parades and the date, we are told, of the
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  next General Election—a happy day for us—why not say as from 1st May existing Treasury notes will no longer be legal tender? All those people who have been dodging the column, all those rats who have been letting us carry the burden, will either have to surrender the notes or, what is more likely to be the case—what has happened in France where they have had the courage to try it—will not surrender them at all for fear that their machinations will be discovered. It seems to me that the Government will win either way and, although I have never even had a reply to the suggestion in four Budgets, I am going to try once again tonight.
  This Debate has ranged widely around this word "inflation." Inflation has become such a household word that many people no longer grasp its meaning. Even the Chancellor seems to think it has some connection with soda water. He has been harshly treated by the hon. Lady for North-East Leeds (Miss Bacon), who went to the length of accusing the present Chancellor of wanting a pound of flesh. If it is a pound of financial flesh which the Chancellor of the Exchequer seeks, I will tell him how to get rid of the spectre of inflation. We shall not rid ourselves of inflaton until we have rid ourselves of Socialism. Socialism and inflation are inseparable partners. We must, rid ourselves first, then, of the Government: they can give way to another. We on these benches are comforted by seeing the slow-but-sure dawn of realisation in the country that, despite all the promises of 1945, the Government have no economic plan whatever, beyond that of sponging on our capitalist cousins in the United States—that is the be-all and end-all of Socialism's economic planning in the year 1948.
  As this Budget will hasten the day of Socialist collapse, we do not view it too lugubriously upon these benches, because the caption "For Whom the Bell Tolls" applies to His Majesty's Government.
  7.24 p.m.
  Mr. Parģiter: If I may comment on the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite), first on the question of whisky, I rather imagine the Chancellor of the Exchequer would treat fur coats and other things in the same way as whisky,

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  but I am doubtful whether the Purchase Tax on these articles would have the great advantage of that on whisky, which can be taxed at the source and consequently cannot find its way into the black market until the Chancellor of the Exchequer has collected from it the amount he wants. The difficulty about the other things is to establish control, because they are already in the market in the ordinary way.
  Turning to the question of the rather harrowing story mentioned by the hon. and gallant Gentleman of one of his friends, and the contribution he will pay in the levy on investment income, I should think from what he said that the capital value of that estate would be somewhere between £60,000 and £80,000, at any rate, and the man would be unlikely to pay a great proportion of that total amount.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Have we now reached a stage in Socialist administration where the criterion is not justice, but that it does not matter so long as the man is paying only a small amount?
  Mr. Parģiter: Those with the greatest capacity should make the greatest contribution; we should make a contribution in proportion to our ability to make it. In that respect, this levy is fair and just. On the question of Postwar Credits, of course, I have some sympathy with the view expressed by the hon. and gallant Member, but he will be fortified by the knowledge that the Leader of the Opposition may already have drawn his credits but the Prime Minister has not yet been able to get his. I would like to refer to Marshall aid. I did not notice any particular sigh of relief on this side about Marshall aid. Marshall aid will meet but a small proportion of our total need in this country, and we should be quite clear about that. It will be a breathing space, but it will not be of great importance in the long run in the economy of this country.
  Mr. Boothby: Did not the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself say that the difference between our getting Marshall aid and our not getting Marshall aid was very great unemployment, very great
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  shortage of food and very great shortage of raw materials?
  Mr. Parģiter: He said there was a possibility of a shortage of food and raw materials and also a possibility of some large volume of unemployment I said Marshall aid was not important in the long run; it is very important in the short run of our economic affairs at the present time. Therefore, it must be viewed in that perspective, and I think it will be remembered that on these benches, far from decrying Marshall aid or anything of that kind, we said long ago, in many speeches from the Front Bench and the back benches, that one of the troubles from which we are suffering in Europe as a whole was the rapid and undesirable termination of Lend-Lease. Had Lend-Lease continued for a period to permit Europe to rehabilitate itself, instead of getting into further economic difficulties, we might now even have been in a position not to need Marshall aid for Europe.
  Mr. Blackburn: Does not the hon. Member agree that the hon. Member opposite did not refer to Marshall aid at all, but to the European Recovery Plan, which is its proper designation today?
  Mr. Parģiter: I will not enter into a discussion on that: it is not a bad name, anyway. I think that on broad principle we are all agreed that the important thing about this Budget is its setting and its relationship to the general economic position of the country. It has, for the first time, brought the two things together at the same time and, therefore, the Chancellor's proposals in his Budget must be taken in conjunction with the economic situation as a whole. If we look at the economic situation, we shall appreciate that, while the costs of primary products in other countries remain as high as they are at the present time, we shall always be faced with some inflationary tendency in this country, because there will be insufficient goods to go round, which people will want to purchase, by comparison with the amount of income they have available.
  The Chancellor's problem therefore—and the problem of any Chancellor—will be to see that there is not that surplus of income to push up the spiral of inflation. If we look at it in that light, we may then

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  see what kind of speeches have been made from the Opposition in attacking or criticising the proposals of the Chancellor. One has heard general observations about the high and crippling level of taxation and about the heavy burden of Government expenditure; but I would remind the Committee that the Chancellor asked hon. Members opposite instead of giving their observations in general terms, to offer proposals different from the present proposals, and to be specific about it. Up to now I have been able to find no specific proposals; they are conspicuous by their absence. It may be that hon. Members are thinking about it in some other place. If the Chancellor is concerned with giving incentives in certain directions with a view to increasing our productive effort, he must at the same time do his best to take the equivalent amount of money out of circulation at some other point, unless there is likely to be a greater volume of consumable goods in the home market. We know at present that there is unlikely to be a much greater volume of consumable goods in the home market while the balance of payments is so heavily against us.
  If we look at the Budget in that light, and if we see the concessions that the Chancellor has made and the additional taxation that he has imposed to counter those concessions, I think we may say that he has reasonably balanced the two sides by giving to some sections and by taking away from others, and leaving the total volume of spendable incomes at about the same level. It does not mean that there will not be a shifting of the demand for goods, because that will obviously happen. There may be a tendency to deflation on some goods and inflation on others, but the general balance will be about the same, except to the extent that the Chancellor has proposed to increase the total volume of the Budget surplus.
  In the light of what has been done, I think it will be agreed that the proposals for earned income relief and the other slight Income Tax reliefs will have the advantage of providing that incentive. I think we may reasonably expect an increased volume of production during the next year, provided that raw materials are available. Also, if we can continue to increase the volume of production during the next two years we may
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  well look for an advantage in other directions at the end of that time. It will be generally accepted, I think, that our greatest problem at the moment is that our manufactured goods are purchasing far too little in the way of primary products and raw materials and so on from other countries, in proportion to the volume of primary products which those manufactured goods purchased before the war. I doubt whether the costs of primary products will ever go to so low and completely uneconomic a level as they did during the inter-war years. I do not think it would necessarily be desirable for them to do so. The effect is deflationary, which may be as disadvantageous as inflation.
  Against that background and in that framework it seems to me, with some exceptions on which I would like to comment, that the Budget is fair and reasonable. It calls for a reasonable contribution from all sections in the community, and, above all, a contribution which bears some relation to the ability of the individual to pay. That, after all, is the real test of any Budget.
  Among the things which I do not like very much is the extra penny on beer. I cannot see that it will have any effect at all so far as the inflationary tendency is concerned. It will have no effect at all on our balance of payments, because none of the materials that we require for the production of beer comes from abroad—not even sugar, because we can produce sufficient sugar for this purpose. Therefore, I do not understand why the Chancellor found it necessary to increase the duty on beer, and I hope that the various remarks which have been passed on this matter will cause him to give early reconsideration to it.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: That applies to whisky, too.
  Mr. Parģiter: I am not so worried about whisky. I cannot afford it, anyway. If the duty on whisky were higher, I should not be unduly worried. The important point is, as was said by the Chancellor, that whisky is a very valuable export. Therefore, anything which will reduce the volume of consumption here and increase the volume of exports is, in the main, a good thing. I do not think we should apply the same rule to whisky as we would

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  to beer. I would say that there is some merit in the tax on tobacco because to purchase it involves dollars.
  One other point in the Chancellor's speech with which I was concerned was the amount of taxation on distributed dividends. I think he said that an average of 60 per cent. was taken by the State in taxation. Frankly, that is not a method which appeals to me. We should not tax profits to keep profits down, because it does not have that effect. When manufacturers consider the prices which they shall charge, they bear in mind that they wish to get a certain net return anyway. If the Chancellor increases the volume of taxation the prices are increased, and while the country as a whole may not suffer any more as a result of that increase, it certainly means increased prices to the consumer, while the important consideration at the moment is to keep down prices to the consumer. I hope the Chancellor will look for other means of limiting profits and I am disappointed that he has not introduced some other means. Incidentally, the whole method of the calculation of profits requires a considerable amount of adjustment. To calculate profits in terms of nominal capital may have nothing to do with the volume of production in any industry. Some alteration there might very well provide some incentive based realistically upon production, rather than upon the divdends or nominal capital of an over- or under-capitalised undertaking.
  I am glad to note that the Chancellor proposes to maintain food subsidies at their present level. To the ordinary people, this is a most important factor, in view of the value of food subsidies from the point of view of the equalisation of incomes. I would like an assurance from the Chancellor, although we recognise that food prices to the consumer are increasing because of the higher cost of food coming from abroad, that when those prices begin to fall he will not reduce the food subsidies, so that the consumer may get the advantage of the reduction in those prices, until they fall well below the level at which the subsidies were fixed.
  I would also like some explanation of what is meant by investment income. Investment income appears to me to be one of many
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  things. I could invest £2,000 in a house and, if I were fortunate, I could sell it a fortnight later for about £3,000. How will that £1,000 be brought into the calculation—or will it not?—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] All right. In other words, capital appreciation, which is one of the things we must tackle, will not be tackled by this levy on investment income. It is highly important that it should be, because the people who are living not on invested income, but by the manipulation of investments, ought to make the contribution which they will otherwise avoid. If the words "investment income" are not wide enough to include the considerable sums of capital appreciation, the Chancellor ought to do something about it, and I hope he will. This question of the manipulation of shares, with no corresponding increase in the real capital value of the country, is one of the great pointers to inflation. I hope we shall hear more about this matter later in the Debate.
  I noticed that the Chancellor welcomed the proposal of the Co-operative societies to reduce food prices over a wide range of every-day consumer goods. I think the Co-operative societies are to be congratulated on what they have done, but a more flexible system will have to be found for the different distribution of points goods to retailers if housewives are to take advantage of the price reductions. One of the problems in connection with points goods, of which the Chancellor may be aware, is that the transfer of people from one retailer to another is not reflected in the change of points goods. If the Co-operative societies' policy is to be pursued with advantage, then those people who wish to benefit from the reduced prices will want to know that they will get their fair share of points goods as well.
  On the question of betting, I think there will be some criticism of the Chancellor's proposal, inasmuch as it still leaves the bookmaker who attends horse race meetings free of tax, as against the bookmaker who attends greyhound race meetings. I cannot see any reason why an attempt should not have been made to bring the other bookmakers into the scheme. Those who can afford only the money and time to go to greyhound meetings, as against horse race meetings, will regard the Chancellor's action as a bias

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  against what they regard as a working-class sport.
  In view of the report we had today from the Minister of Fuel and Power, about the still urgent need to save petrol, I was sorry to note that nothing has been done in the Budget to provide a major encouragement to the saving of petrol. I refer to the possibility of a very considerable extension of the use of ignition-compression engines, that is, heavy oil engines, in the wider range of goods vehicles. There are no particular technical difficulties about this. The oil engine has been the subject of much experiment, and is accepted as a means of propulsion. Commercial vehicles, with an unladen weight of between two and three tons, are, in nearly all cases, still using petrol engines, and there appears to be no incentive at all for manufacturers and designers to change to oil engines, which would give twice the mileage that is provided by the petrol engine. A change of that kind would produce an enormous saving, and would be gladly accepted by those who will not be enamoured of the small standard petrol ration which has just been announced. I appreciate that the Chancellor will not be able to give a preferential rate of tax for the oil engine, as was done in its early days, but something might be done by way of putting a penal tax on petrol engines in the future. It would have the merit of forcing designers, who do not appear to be in any hurry at the moment, to produce the much more economical oil engine.
  Those are my main criticisms, but I hope it will not be thought that I am critical to the extent that I do not approve, overall, of the proposals in the Budget. I think they are good, and will go a long way towards stimulating our economic recovery. I believe that the Chancellor has faced the position realistically, and, on Tuesday, he gave us one of the best expositions I have ever heard on the economic and financial aspect of cur present-day problems. I wish him well, and I hope that by the time the next Budget comes along, the effect of this Budget will have been seen in the increasing volume of production and in a reduction in our adverse balance of payments gap.
  7.47 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Thorneyeroft: I have listened with interest to the speech
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  of the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Pargiter), who started off on debatable ground when he tried to make us believe that the capital levy was not unjust because it fell only on the rich, who, he said, could afford it. That sort of justice, on a means test basis, was not a sound argument, and I was glad to note that as the hon. Gentleman proceeded and began to investigate the matter in his own mind, he found out for himself towards the end of his speech, how unjust was this particular tax. He realised, as I do not think he did at the start, that the very men who ought to be caught—those living on the sale of capital and the use of capital appreciation—will be let off scot free, whereas those who have followed the advice of the Chancellor, and have left their money in investments, or have invested new money in savings, will be caught. I hope that we shall, therefore, have the hon. Gentleman's support in the further criticisms of this capital levy which will be made later in our Debates.
  Mr. Parģiter: I would like to make it quite clear that I am not in favour of reducing any part of the tax. I want to see its field extended.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: At any rate, the hon. Member realises some of the imperfections of the tax in its present form, or at least one of the imperfections. If he will pursue his studies in this matter he will find that injustices of perhaps an even more dramatic character will appear in the later stages of this Debate. The rest of the hon. Gentleman's speech, if I may say so, was somewhat on lines which have become rather familiar in the speeches of Members opposite when dealing with a Budget. They start off by saying, "Of course, we must all deal with the inflationary situation which has arisen." Then they go on to pay a tribute to the Chancellor, then to say how necessary it is to have a surplus, and, finally—and this is the important stage from the electoral point of view—they proceed to attack all the forms of taxation which have been imposed. They say, "It is a shocking thing to put an extra penny on beer, which is the poor man's liquor," and the result is that while they get all the credit for criticising the inflationary situation, they also get all the popularity with their constituents of attacking the various taxes which have been imposed.

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  My final word on the hon. Gentleman's speech—he really made a most interesting speech—is about this matter of horse-racing. I have listened to nearly all the speeches made on this Budget, not only because of their intrinsic interest but because I happen to be going to describe them in "The Week at Westminster,"—as I hope hon. Members will remember in the replies which they make to my speech. Horse-racing has been constantly referred to as a sport of the rich. I do not know whether the hon. Member has ever been to a horse-race in his life. If he has ever been, or if he ever goes, he will know that it is not the sport of the rich at all. If he wants to know why the horse-racing bookie is not taxed, the answer is simply that it would be impossible to tax the street bookie who is competing with him outside. I am glad at this point to see that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury agrees with me. I should be glad to undertake the task of replying to the Debate on his behalf. So much for the speech of the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Pargiter).
  Now perhaps I may say a few words about the Budget. I start off—it is almost common form to do so—by saying some nice things about the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I want to do so because I shall say a few nasty things about him in the last stage of my remarks. I would compliment him on the very able way he exposed, in precise and unequivocal terms, the almost bombastic optimism of his predecessor in office. That was something which very badly needed to be done. He showed that the surplus of which the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) so constantly boasted was in reality a very small and pitiable one and that it was, almost in the words of the present Chancellor, largely the result of the very inflationary situation which his predecessor had allowed to grow up or to continue. It was proper that those criticisms should be made. I felt almost sorry for the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland when I listened to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I went on feeling sorry for him until the moment when he himself intervened in the Debate. Then my attitude somewhat changed.
  Secondly, I congratulate the Chancellor upon the fact that he budgeted for a large surplus. I do not think that any-
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  body on any side of this Committee would disagree with him in his decision to do that. I congratulate him upon the fact that, in presenting that surplus of £330 million to the public he calculated it on a basis which was much closer to reality than has ever been the case in any previous Budget. If the sole test of Britain's solvency be a real surplus in the Budget, none of us either in the Committee or in the country would have very much to complain about. Unfortunately, that is not so. What is of equal importance to obtaining a real surplus in the Budget is the method by which that surplus is obtained.
  I am not proposing to talk about questions of hardship, injustice, and the rest of it. I am concerned about whether the remedies which are prescribed in the Budget are adequate to the very grave economic problems which confront the country. I wish to refer to two of those problems. The first of them is our over-sea accounts. This country is bankrupt, not virtually but literally, so far as our oversea accounts are concerned. We had much better face that fact. By bankruptcy I mean that we are utterly unable to honour our debts overseas or even to pay for our current needs out of our current resources. At home, we are still suffering from an inflation which, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, may well get worse and which is distorting the whole of our economy. It is resulting in a steady rise of wages, prices and profits, which are getting near the point at which we shall be unable to sell goods abroad at a price which other nations are prepared to pay. The test of the Budget therefore is, does it deal with those problems, or does it not?
  Let me take the question of the balance of payments and the question of how we are to get exports upon a sufficient scale to buy what we need, which is the first stage of getting out of bankruptcy. I have very little faith in export targets. Most of them are out-of-date as soon as they are published. In any event, as the hon. Member for North Croydon (Mr. F. Harris) said, in his very able maiden speech, they wholly ignore the vital factor of exports, which is the willingness or the unwillingness of the foreign exporter to buy. What is wanted is not exportation but action on the part of the Government. So long as we have infla-

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  tion at home, and customers in this country with more money in their pockets than there are goods to buy, what real incentive is there to industrialists to set out in a big way in the export markets? It is much easier to sell goods at home. In the export trade, as in other matters, people have a habit of doing what comes naturally. If we have a market at our doorsteps—and more than a market—why should we go to seek export markets elsewhere?
  Therefore, the kind of action which we require if we are to put our balance of payments right is for the Government to create a situation in which there are real incentives, not only to the workers but to the employers, to make sure that the goods can be produced. The second thing is that the Government should mop up the purchasing power in this country to an extent adequate to deal with the inflation which is admitted to exist. The third thing is that they should do all in their power to promote saving. On all those three counts the Budget is a dismal failure.
  Before I deal with the proposals for new taxation put forward in the Budget, I want to say a word about inflation. Everybody has talked about it, so perhaps I might say a word about it myself. I am not an economist, but I am bound to say that some of the ideas and suggestions of what constitutes inflation, as put forward by hon. Members opposite, I find most astonishing. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland has quite a simple test. He says that inflation exists in any year in which he does not happen to be Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he is the Chancellor of the Exchequer his tendency is to boast of the amount of purchasing power which he has put into circulation during his tenure of office. We then had wild proposals to spend money on a whole variety of things—new bridges, new hospitals, new town halls, over-allocation of steel by two million tons.
  I remember the right hon. Member going on the wireless at the B.B.C. Hon. Members may also remember his phrase, "Profligate expenditure? No, solid investment, the hope and strength of Britain." I must say that even the present Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to be a little vague about what inflation precisely means. He seemed to talk at
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  one stage in his remarks in introducing this Budget as though inflation were merely prices going up. Inflation is not prices going up. Rises of prices are results of inflation. It does seem to me that the Government's utter inability to distinguish between causes and effects in our economic situation is one of the principal reasons for our present difficulties.
  What is quite certain is, that unless the Government take some real steps to deal with the inflation—and I do riot think they have yet—they are not going to make very much headway with this policy of appealing to trade union leaders to keep wages down and to industrialists to keep profits down. It will not work. Trade union leaders are elected for the purpose of putting wages up, amongst other things. The job of industrialists is to make profits, not losses. The idea that for a period of years the chairman of a company is to go annually to the shareholders and say, "In the past year we have had a most successful time, and with the assistance of our able management we have actually reduced our profits to half of what they were in the year before," does not seem to me to be very realistic. People are not going to act against their natural instincts for very long. This attempt has been made before in other countries. It was made in France by M. Blum. It was known as l'expérience Blum. We have had l'expérience Dalton, we are now having l'expérience Cripps in this country. But they are likely to be equally unsuccessful.
  In order to deal with rising wages and prices it is necessary to deal with the inflation itself. Is this Budget likely to do that? I agree with the right hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) and the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson), who spoke in the same sense, that this is not—at any rate, sufficiently—an anti-inflationary Budget. Quite a large proportion of the Budget surplus is to be drawn, not from taxes on income chasing consumer goods, but from a tax on capital. What then ought to be done? One thing that could be done is to persuade people to save money instead of spending it. Does the Financial Secretary contend that the proposals in this Budget are going to boost his savings campaign? I have always supported the savings campaign. I have supported it on platforms in the country. I have not shared the

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  view which has been expressed, with all sincerity, I know, by my noble Friend the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). However, I am bound to say I am almost swinging a bit in his direction at the present time. After all, what is it that encourages saving? Not only the rate of interest. There is something much more important than that. It is that savings should be safe. That is the real thing that encourages saving.
  How safe are the people's savings in future? I want some answers on one or two questions about this. It is said that this capital levy is "once and for all." What is meant by that? Is it once and for all in this form? I do not think it would be necessary to say that. I do not think anybody would ever contemplate putting up such a scheme twice. I should think that after it has been examined in detail in Committee, and after all the gross injustices of it have been shown, no Chancellor of any party would produce it again. But do the words "once and for all" mean that there will not be a capital levy in future? I was reading again what the Chancellor said. My attention was called to it by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland. These were his precise words
  "Various attractive suggestions"—
  attractive suggestions—
  "have been put forward for a capital levy, but from the administrative point of view, a capital levy—in the ordinary sense of those words—is impracticable at the present time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th April, 1948; Vol. 449, c. 71.]
  Impracticable at the present time. What does the Chancellor mean? Does he mean we are to have a capital levy this time and never again? Or does he mean that we are only going to have it in this particular form now, and that this very attractive suggestion of a capital levy, as soon as the administrative difficulties can be got over, is going to be a weapon which will be properly used by a Socialist Chancellor? I think we are entitled to an answer on that matter. The people who are invited to speak in the savings campaigns in this country are entitled to an answer upon it. I would say this to the Financial Secretary and to the Government—not that my speaking in campaigns or on platforms is of much assistance, perhaps—but I would say that
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  my attitude, certainly on this matter, will be very much influenced by the answer I receive tonight. I, therefore, now leave the question of savings which, I think, depend very much on the Government's attitude and on whether savings are to be expropriated or not.
  I come to the question of indirect taxation. I support the taxes on beer, betting, wines, and spirits. All of them. Even that on whisky—but my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) has gone. If the Chancellor had not given such an incredibly silly reason for it, I should have supported the tax on tobacco; but I do really find it extraordinarily hard to support a tax when the reason which he gave for it is put forward. To talk about giving "a sharp reminder to the people who smoke" is to talk like an irritated school mistress rather than a responsible statesman. I do hope that the Financial Secretary will have a talk with his right hon. and learned Friend to see whether, between now and a later stage, some more sensible sort of argument cannot be put forward. In point of fact, the tax upon tobacco is a very valuable anti-inflationary tax, but it depends upon people's not smoking less, but smoking as much as they do now. In any event, even supposing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer really meant this idea of preventing people from smoking, what effect is twopence a packet going to have? Most of the contracts are probably already entered into for the purchase of tobacco, and the arrangements made. So what dollar savings will, in fact, be effected? It is a bad argument anyway, and it will be abandoned tonight, I hope, by the Financial Secretary in the service of his chief.
  Of the Purchase Tax I want to say that it is an unpleasant, but, in present circumstances, wholly admirable tax. It does two things. First of all, it certainly is an anti-inflationary tax. There is no question about that. It does absorb purchasing power. Secondly, it does in many cases discourage consumption of articles at home, and so helps to make some of them available for export. I do not see why I should say all the unpopular things in support of the Budget. I hope that the Government will say some of them. But I would ask one question in connection with this Purchase Tax.

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  Could the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that none of the articles from which he is removing, or upon which he is reducing, Purchase Tax is both in short supply and in demand for export? I should like an answer to that tonight. The right hon. Gentleman does not look as though he has got the question. I want an answer to this question. Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking, on the advice of the experts in the Treasury, that none of the articles upon which he is reducing Purchase Tax or from which he is removing Purchase Tax altogether, is both in short supply and in demand for export? Has he got that? If not, I will try to explain it quietly to him outside.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): If the hon. Gentleman wants to know, I can tell him I got his point the first time; but it is not my job to jump up to interrupt him. I say this: this is a free country, and when he begins to demand answers to this, that, and the other, I should like to remind him that I need not necessarily answer every single question he puts to me.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: What the right hon. Gentleman does not realise is that my right to ask questions and demand answers is just why this country is a free country.
  Mr. Follick: Instead of saying, "I want an answer, "why not say, "I should like an answer"?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: I pass from dealing with that interruption of the Financial Secretary to the question of food subsidies. Previously in the Committee I have argued the case for a reduction in food subsidies, and I do not propose to repeat all my arguments now, except to point out that food subsidies represent about 3s. in the £ Income Tax, and there is no doubt whatever that any real tackling of the food subsidy position would allow for a considerable reduction in indirect taxation. What I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman about—because I do not understand it—is the argument against food subsidies. As I understand the argument, it is said that if the subsidy of, say, £300 million is removed the price of food will go up 2s. 3d. per person per week, and it is said that that will be inflationary because there will be a great demand for increased wages all round. That seems to
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  me to be a policy and an argument of despair.
  Look at all the other things that might be treated in the same way. Take, for example, Purchase Tax. Nobody could really suppose that the Purchase Tax is restricted to luxuries, because it is not: children's clothing, and all the rest of it, are not luxuries. Perhaps an even better example is the new insurance contribution to be paid in a few months' time. When the wage earner in the family suddenly finds that he has to pull some money out of his pocket in order to pay the increased insurance contribution, is that to be used as an argument for wage increases? It seems to me an utterly untenable argument to suggest that the moment anybody has to pay anything more, at any stage, that must inevitably result in wage increases, which must necessarily be conceded all round.
  Then Government expenditure. The moment we on this side of the Committee mention Government expenditure hon. Members opposite look quite happy and say: "Ah! Can you specify what items you would cut?" They seem to think that question is difficult to answer. It is about the easiest question to answer that I have ever been asked. For a start, why not cut our own salaries? That would be a very good one for a start. It is not large in extent; but, after all, why not start at the top? Whose salaries have been increased most during the last two years? The salaries of Members of Parliament have been increased 60 per cent. I suggest that a cut of 10 or 15 per cent. in the salaries of Members of Parliament and Ministers would be a very proper example to set the country. There are plenty of other cuts which could be made. Not so long ago I remember the Financial Secretary defending a capital expenditure of £250 million on the gas industry during the next five years—a quarter of the total sum of the American Loan to be spent on the gas industry.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall Mr. Glenvil Hall indicated dissent.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: It is no good the right hon. Gentleman shaking his head.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Perhaps I might interrupt in order to put the hon. Member right on this point, if not on others. I would remind him that all we were doing was underwriting, with a State

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  guarantee, the gas industry if it desired to raise capital in order to improve the industry in the next five years. We were not, in any shape or form, raising taxpayers' money for that purpose, and we do not intend to.
  Mr. Thorneyeroft: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. How can the Government seriously contend that they are coming forward with determination to cut Government expenditure, and at the same time say, "Well, of course, we did underwrite the gas industry to the extent of £250 million"? That is a preposterous contribution to the case put forward by his right hon. and learned Friend. This £250 million spent upon the gas industry, and justified over the wireless with such lucidity by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland, means less goods in the shops, less goods for housewives, fewer exports, and fewer vital imports into this country.
  The party opposite says it is difficult to show what other cuts could be made. I know of hundreds; but let me give just one more. The other day I was out walking in Kent with a friend of mine, and on walking over the brow of a hill I saw down below a lovely country house entirely surrounded by motorcars.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: It must have been a coalowner's house.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: I asked whose house it was, and remarked that they must be having a big party there. "Oh, no," my friend replied, "that is the regional office of the National Fire Service. "There it was, sitting in the midst of the country, a great establishment, with motorcars, petrol and everything else they wanted. Cuts in Government expenditure? Government expenditure could be ripped to pieces if we had a Chancellor who really meant it. What about the losses the Government make? What about the losses of the coal industry? That would not be a bad start. What about civil aviation, or even groundnuts?
  There are plenty of opportunities for cutting Government expenditure. There might even be a little economy at home. The most fantastic waste of both men and money occurs in high Government circles. Take the whole question of Income Tax collection, linked with the administration
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  of the National Health insurance schemes. The point was very well made yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis), and I do not propose to repeat it at great length; but just look at what is happening at the moment. There is one lot of men in the Ministry of National Insurance counting everybody's children and dependents for the purpose of distributing benefits under the National Health insurance scheme, and another lot of men in the Treasury concerned with taxing the benefits which are being paid out—men who are themselves entering the same field with a great complex system of family allowances and Income Tax. It is an old-fashioned. archaic system—
  Mr. Glenvil Hall Mr. Glenvil Hall indicated assent.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: The right hon. Gentleman nods his head; but it is a costly system, too, and it is very wasteful of manpower. I am not criticising the right hon. Gentleman; I like him to nod his head when I am talking. But will the right hon. Gentleman do something about it? Will he nod his head to that? Will he at least give a pledge that between now and the next Budget he will have an investigation into this matter to see whether steps cannot be taken to tidy the system up? The largest body of men is administering P.A.Y.E. in industry. About 60,000 or 65,000 are sitting there doing the Government's work for them, administering a tax which itself is the biggest disincentive which can conceivably be devised; a tax which itself immediately imposes a bigger tax the moment the man makes a bigger effort.
  I do not want to speak for too long, but this Budget seems to me to be, not the Budget of a nation which intends to stand upon its own feet, but the makeshift device of a Government prepared to go on being the respected pensionary of the United States of America; quite happy to sit there and to let things just tick over. If we are to stand on our own feet as a nation, a Budget on very much more revolutionary lines than this is required. For my own part I should like to see a drastic overhaul of the whole taxation system, with the object of reducing its administrative costs, of placing the burden of taxation on individual men and women rather than on the families, and in order to remove those deterrents which are inherent in the

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  P.A.Y.E. system—those deterrents upon output which can be seen on every side. Secondly, by all means maintain high indirect taxation until the goods become available, when it can be scaled down.
  I say again, I would scale down, or make a start in scaling down, food subsidies, making provision for the worst cases of hardship; and I would make drastic cuts in the whole range of Government expenditure, starting, in order to set an example, with the salaries of Members of Parliament themselves. Then, using the vast resources which that policy would give, I would make substantial reductions in direct taxation on earned income right through the income ranges, whether in managerial, employer, or worker ranges. Those things can be done; but they can be done only if there is the courage to take e very unpopular measure.
  Some of the things I suggest are unpopular, but I am not in the least concerned about that. There is no way in which this country can get out of its difficulties after two years of Socialist Government without taking quite a number of unpopular measures. But if we take them, we can create a condition of affairs in which the inclination of the individual is working on the same side as the national interest, rather than against it. We can create conditions in which the skilled man can not only earn more but can buy more than the unskilled man, and the hardworking man can get more than the lazy man, and the enterprising man more than the timid man. I am anxious that we should take these steps before it is too late.
  8.21 p.m.
  Mr. Lester Hutchinson: The speech of the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) was most interesting, but I cannot help feeling that some of his points would have been more effective if he had put them a little more courteously. I am not seeking popularity when I say that there are certain aspects of the Budget which deserve congratulation, even if there are other aspects which deserve criticism. I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on resisting the pressure to reduce the food subsidies, and for adjusting Income Tax, particularly in relation to those who work overtime. There are certain other matters which it is necessary to criticise, it one is
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  to represent the views of one's constituents.
  I want to express my disappointment over the increased taxation on beer and tobacco. The average man in the "pub" is not concerned about the economic mysteries which take off the tax on soda water and put it on beer. To him it will appear that it is teetotal prejudice to take off the tax on soda water and increase the tax on beer, and he will regard this increased taxation as austerity for austerity s sake. I believe that the increase in taxation on beer, even more than in the case of tobacco, is a psychological and political mistake. It appears to a layman that this Budget is more satisfactory for those who find their pleasure in drinking soda water and playing the church organ, and that it is a penal Budget for those who folic w the more red-blooded pleasures.
  I should also like to venture a word of criticism on the Betting Duty. This tax merely adds to the complexities of an already complex system. While I do not propose to weep for the "bookie," it is high time that we broke away from these hypocritical and unsatisfactory methods of dealing with betting which have been inherited from our Puritan forefathers. I agree with the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith) that we should institute State lotteries. People will always gamble, and all the fulminations of the righteous will not stop them. Therefore. I consider that the State should make a profit out of it. My hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Pargiter) expressed no enthusiasm for the Special Contribution on invested capital,' and I agree with him. I believe that this is a poor substitute for the limitation on profits which we all expected. It does not catch the speculators who gamble with other people's money and it may interfere with the expansion of our industrial system which is largely based on private capital investment. The Government would have obtained better results if, instead of introducing a limited form of capital levy, they had closed the Stock Exchange.
  My real purpose in speaking tonight is to comment shortly on one or two principles which guide our economic policy. I believe that in some respects our policy is inadequate and that the plaster is not big enough to cover the sore. The question is

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  really whether there is a sufficient degree of planning. We find a great dissimilarity between the plans announced in the Survey for the year and the results. To begin with manpower, most Members will agree that there are too many men and women engaged in non-productive activities. Last year, there was a much bigger release from the Forces than was contemplated, but the men released do not seem to have been absorbed into productive industry. In 1947, the target for agriculture was set at 33,000, but we succeeded in recruiting only 9,000. The target for 1948 is 55,000. Are we to be more successful in recruiting 55,00o, when we recruited only 9,000 out of 33,000 last year?
  The textile industry is of great importance in the Economic Survey. The 1948 target for the textile industry is to obtain 108,000 more workers than last year, to make a total of 325,000. This is the total deemed necessary to get our textile industry on a prosperous and satisfactory basis. I do not think we shall get that total by our present methods. We shall not get it unless we make the conditions in these industries attractive to the workers. We shall not get it by trying to force workers into these industries by a limited form of direction. The Government should adopt a more realistic wages policy, and should cease talking about freezing wages until wages are married to the actual working conditions in the industries concerned.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer quite rightly places great reliance on the textile industry to bridge the gap, but we are entitled to ask how far the industry is mechanised with modern machines. We produce £41 million of textile machinery, but out of that total we exported £27 million worth. Is it not possible to divert a little more of this machinery to our own mills which are in desperate need of it? Our textile policy is based on a short-term view. We have not yet faced up to what will happen when the Japanese textile industry is put on its feet by American capital and help. We shall have to face cheap competition, not only from Japan, but from India and China. It seems to me that we shall be faced with competition on a much bigger scale than that in 1937 and 1938 and before, which was responsible for closing down many of our mills.
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  I believe that the deficiency in some of our production targets is due to the lack of steel. Most of our industrial recovery depends on steel production, and I should like the Government to inform us what is the position in regard to the collection of scrap, and what we are doing about collecting scrap from Germany. There is a lot of scrap in Germany which could be collected and used in our steel mills. It was our policy before the war to export scrap from Britain to Germany. In 1940 we got some of it back. I believe that we are entitled to a million tons of scrap which is lying round in Germany.
  I would ask the Government how many new blast furnaces and coke ovens have been introduced in the last three years to improve our steel industry. Is it not possible to speed up the construction of new plant? The new plant which is to be erected in South Wales will take 4½ years to construct. Similar plant erected in the U.S.A. took two years. I think that both the steel magnates and the public are entitled to know at an early date from the Government what are their intentions with regard to nationalisation. At present, there is a certain jockeying for new plant among those in the steel industry, as though they had a 99 years' lease of the steel mills. If we intend to nationalise steel in this Parliament, we should make it known clearly, and beyond any possible argument, as soon as possible. If we are not going to nationalise steel, we should also make that quite clear. The present situation can only lead to uncertainty and difficulty.
  Increased production and the adaptation of purely orthodox economic policy are not likely to save us economically. I agree in part with the hon. Member for Monmouth on his point about the bankruptcy of the country so far as our overseas investments are concerned. It is not generally realised in the country that we have never paid for our imports by our exports. That gap has always been covered by our investments in what is now known as the dollar area, and these investments are now gone. We also drew our strength from Colonial exploitation, which is very limited today. We have to face a situation very different from that which existed before the war. We must take bold and radical methods to deal with it, and not methods borrowed from the nineteenth century.

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  I was disturbed in reading the Economic Survey and in listening to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech to realise what reliance is put on the American European Recovery Programme. I do not believe that big business ever gives charity unless it gets an adequate return for it. I do not propose to go into the political aspects of the European Recovery Programme. I merely want to put forward a few ideas on how it might affect us economically. I think that those who regard the E.R.P. as a stout staff on which we can lean in our present condition are going to be severely disappointed. It is not a stout staff, but a very slender reed which can break under one of many stresses.
  I believe that those who place too much faith in the E.R.P. have forgotten that the United States are our most formidable commercial competitor, and that if a crash should take place in the United States—I am not arguing now whether it will or not, but it is within the realms of possibility—we shall find ourselves driven out of our markets by United States competition. With their large-scale production, they can produce much more cheaply than we can. We shall find that they will drive us out of our markets in order to create employment for themselves, and thus create serious unemployment in Britain. It may strike American big business that it may be cheaper in the long run to put an end to the "cold war" and make a compromise with Russia. If that takes place, we again shall be left out in the cold, and in a most unsatisfactory position. If that does not take place, it really means that the pouring out of money by America into Britain will merely buy our allegiance to programmes for which we have no real sympathy, and may eventually land us in somebody else's war.
  Unless we can bridge the gulf by our own efforts and our own production we shall become more and more a dependency of America. If we follow that line on the old economic policy, we shall find that we are unable to maintain our population of 47 million. That population was built up when Britain had a great Colonial Empire, and when most of the countries of the world owed us money on our investments. Today we are not in that position. Unless we adopt a radically new policy to maintain our population, we shall find ourselves reduced to a drastic policy of emigration, which will leave us with an
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  aged and spiritless population, a nation of helots, and a playground for rich foreign tourists.
  In my view the remedy is not less Socialism but more Socialism. I believe that the Government and the Labour Party, in spite of the opposition from the benches in front of me, should strive towards a total planned economy and cease to make compromises with capitalism. We should try to get the whole industrial production and distribution of the country in a centralised plan, properly directed. Having done that, we should link our planned economy with the other totally planned economies of Europe, because they need our goods and we need what they are in a position to give us. If we do that, we shall be creating a new economic sphere in which we can develop and prosper. We shall find, if we rely upon charity from America, which does not want our goods, that she has very little to offer us except charity.
  Finally, I would suggest that we develop a much closer economic relationship with the Commonwealth. I believe in the schemes going on in Africa and elsewhere and in the Dominions, and I think that if we are less dependent on American economy we can get a great deal more support from the Dominions and Colonies. The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown), a few days ago, referred to political horse-sense. I believe that there is still a lot of horse-sense in the world but we must show that the horses have not got it all. We must direct all our skill and efforts and productive genius towards solving our problems economically, without depending on charity from abroad and without allowing our sovereignty to be affected. If we exchange our goods with the countries which require our goods, we shall, in that way, build up prosperity and happiness and the social security of the ordinary people of this country.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. A. R. W. Low: I thought that the hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Hutchinson) was extremely gloomy, but in the course of his speech he said one or two things which hon. Gentlemen opposite do not normally say. He said that cotton mills were closed down by Japanese competition and not by the Tories; and he asked his right

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  hon. and learned Friend to make a firm statement about the future of the steel industry. Many of the other things that he said were wrong and were equally regarded as being wrong, to judge from the absence of nods, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Reverting to the Budget, I come to the question of how far it will tackle the great problem of inflation which the Chancellor openly acknowledged that he has to tackle and which, I think, he inferentially acknowledged had not been properly tackled over the past few years. I do not pretend to be an expert or even an inexpert, economist, but as I understand it, what the Chancellor is trying to do is to ensure by one means or another that there is a sufficient total saving over Government and private spheres to prevent any further inflation and to bring about, if possible, some cure of the present inflationary system. In trying to do this he has done two things. First, he has aimed at a surplus and, secondly, he has aimed—or hopes to aim—at encouraging private savings.
  Before coming to the question of the surplus, I should like to speak first about private savings. It is clearly set out in Table 26, on page 49 of the Economic Survey, that private savings do, of course, consist of undistributed profits as well as personal savings. I hope that the Chancellor will correct the misunderstanding under which many of his hon. Friends seem to labour, that an undistributed profit is not at present advantageous. I quite understand that there is also a psychological aspect, but it seems to me that if he wants savings he wants profits, and he obviously wants as much of those profits as is reasonable to be undistributed; but part of the total personal savings on which he counts for the success of his attack upon inflation must consist of undistributed profits. What does he do? He taxes them and, by that tax, merely transfers them from the realm of private saving to the realm of what I might term Government saving.
  Regarding personal savings, I am glad. to see that the Chancellor realises there is a danger, not only that we shall not get an increase over last year's savings, but that we shall not even get, within perhaps 80 per cent. of last year's total.
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  Another danger arises very largely because of the high taxation. I have listened to speeches from all sides of the Committee and it seems that, at a time like the present, when prices and taxation are high, we cannot expect that there will be a very strong incentive to save. That is the difficulty which faces the Chancellor. He wants to encourage private saving on a large scale. That is abstention from spending. However, when we look around we see—all hon. Members, as individuals, know it well—very often there does not seem much left in our own pockets to put aside for that saving. The right hon. and learned Gentleman therefore has a very big task in encouraging people to save during the next year. He recognises that task in the Economic Survey. He recognises that he has to encourage people to save over 50 per cent, more than they saved in 1938 when taxation was not so high and when prices were very much lower.
  I am, therefore, very shocked when I come to look at the effects of the capital levy and the remarks by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite about the possibility of further levies on capital. That, surely, is the great danger to the incentive 'to save. People will think that they are merely throwing away their money immediately they put it away in various savings schemes or invest it. By bowing to the demand from behind him that there should be a smack at the so-called rich classes, the Chancellor has done himself, his aim and the country a great disservice.
  We know very few of the details about the capital levy. I see that the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce) is interested in this matter. He would have liked a real, proper capital levy. We know that he is a disciple of the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), and that he is Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister of Health. There are a great many details which we shall want to know about how the capital levy will work. I see that it is to be levied on individuals. I understand that those individuals are human individuals and not what I might call legal individuals. They do not include banks and insurance companies. When we take the individual, does the individual mean a man and his wife, or the man less his wife? I understand that it means the man and his wife. An individual.

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  therefore, means a married couple but not a company. Many questions have already been asked which will no doubt be answered in the course of this and many other Debates. When one looks at this capital levy, quite apart from its apparent grounding of political spite, it seems to have absolutely no effect in the battle against inflation. It cannot result in any more than a transfer from private savings into the Government surplus. That was ably explained by the right hon. Gentleman the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) and I will not refer to it further.
  The other great disincentive to saving, of which sometimes too little is made, is the continued high taxation. It seems that savings are low owing very largely to this high taxation. Therefore, the Chancellor has to aim at a big surplus. This is inclined to increase or to keep the taxes. That, in itself, perhaps reduces the savings, and it therefore becomes necessary for the Chancellor to increase taxes even more, and there is a danger that we get into a vicious circle which results in the duty of saving being taken over by the Chancellor and the private individual losing the chance which he had in the past to contribute to his own security and to the country's good by personal saving.
  Mr. Mitchison: Would the hon. Member tell us how a large surplus applied in reduction of the National Debt tends to make taxes higher?
  Mr. Low: I was trying to explain that this large surplus—perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman did not understand—is largely due to extra revenue coming from higher taxation.
  Mr. Peter Roberts: Entirely.
  Mr. Low: Perhaps not entirely, because the Chancellor could say that he has cut expenditure a very little. Now I want to come on to the other side of the balance sheet and to deal with expenditure, because that is really at the root of the higher and higher taxes which keep on facing the individual in this country. That is the reason for the tax on beer and the tax on tobacco which hon. Gentlemen opposite do not seem to like. I do not like these increased taxes on beer and tobacco either, because they
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  are due entirely to wasteful Government expenditure. We are challenged over and over again as to what we would prune. We are in great difficulty when we come to examine the Estimates—and I have particular experience of examining some of the Defence Estimates—because we never get answers to questions. So it is difficult to recommend what should be pruned and what should not be pruned. Particularly in the Defence sphere, we are given very little information. If we were given more, we might perhaps then be more constructive. I suggest to the Chancellor that the time has come when something like a commission should be appointed to see that all Government Departments are properly organised, and prune their staffs. This is no time for luxurious staffs.
  If we look at the Government Departments we find increases in clerks, increases in lower grade officers, vastly greater increases than are justified by the increases in the number of men at the top. No expenditure is sacrosanct, not even Defence expenditure. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, I do not want to see the Forces of this country any less strong than they are today, but I believe they could be considerably stronger for a much smaller amount of money. Does the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce) want to interrupt?
  Major Bruce: Would the hon. Member like to have another Geddes Committee?
  Mr. Low: I did not say a Geddes Committee; I said I wanted a commission to go into the organisation of Government Departments. The Geddes Committee did certain things of which we are all aware. What is recommended is up to the Commission and what is done, is up to the Government; but, from all we see, there is gross waste in many Government Departments, and it is about time it was properly looked into.
  There is one other aspect of the Budget to which I wish to refer—.he spreading of burdens over the community as a whole in the fairest possible way. The capital levy seems to me to be an example of unfair treatment of a part of the community. I will not add to that, but the men and women who are asked to pay this levy have already probably paid enormous taxes on the sums, as they were saved, which now

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  form the capital from which the investment income is earned. As any hon. Member can see, if he looks at the many White Papers we are given, the proportion of tax paid by those people is enormous.
  Coming to the other end of the scale, I think it wrong of the right hon. and learned Gentleman once again to inflict on the beer drinker and tobacco smoker the main burden of his extra taxation. It seems utterly wrong that the beer drinker, the wine bibber, the whisky drinker, and tobacco smoker should provide one-third of the total revenue of the country just by their activities as drinkers and smokers, quite apart from the many other ways in which they have to pay taxes. The whole thing has got completely out of gear and out of balance.
  I plead with the right hon. and learned Gentleman to look into the whole system of taxation. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) spoke about that tonight, and yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) made a speech which, I think, appealed to the Financial Secretary, making suggestions for the reform of Income Tax law. The time has come to simplify the whole procedure and to adjust the taxation procedure to that which we employ for social insurance. It is ridiculous to have the sort of duplication whereby the Inland Revenue Department are dealing with family allowances and marriage allowances in one office while, under a completely different system, for social insurance, the same class of people are being dealt with by different people in another office. The time has come to review the whole matter, and to get over many of the complications which not only make the operation of P.A.Y.E. unfair, but create a disincentive, and put a great burden on those who administer it in public and private offices.
  I hope that out of the atmosphere of gloom into which one gets, not by listening to the Chancellor, but by reading his Economic Survey, some of us may see a brighter future in the middle distance and the long distance. If we cannot, our efforts today will obviously be so much less vigorous and so much less inspired. I hope the Chancellor will go ahead with all the plans and ideas he has for the
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  employment of the resources not only of Western Europe in a union with us, but the resources of the Commonwealth. One of the great benefits which have come to this country and to Europe came as a result of Mr. Marshall's speech at Harvard. There should be no need for a similar speech, or similar action, to provoke a greater unity over economic affairs between this country and the Dominions of the Commonwealth and the Colonies of the Empire.
  I sometimes wonder whether it is realistic in this age that we should set up a Council for Western Europe in Paris for the operation of the E.R.P. to put the Marshall Plan into force, and yet be entirely unwilling to do anything like that for our Empire and Commonwealth. It seems entirely illogical. I know that many say the Dominions would not like it, but I think they would like it. All they need is a lead from this country. I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman when he says that the first and most important thing to give us a future is to look to our home affairs. As an effort to give us a start again on a sound basis, as an effort to defeat inflation, I welcome this Budget. Carrying as it does certain blemishes the blemish of a capital levy, and I think certain mistakes with the wrongful distribution of taxation—I welcome it as a definite first measure taken by the Government to try to tackle the danger of inflation in this country.
  9.2 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Birch: With most of what my hon. Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) has said I entirely agree, and I shall refer to one or two of the points with which he has dealt in the course of my remarks.
  If we look back over the Budget Debates that we have had in this Parliament up to now, we find that the Opposition has had four main themes throughout. First, we have complained that the national accounting was dishonest, and that no true picture was being presented to the country. Secondly, we have always said that there was a large uncovered inflationary gap. Thirdly, we have said it was most doubtful whether in the long run it would be possible to sustain a level of national expenditure such as we now have and at the same time maintain stable prices. The fourth general theme has been that in this period

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  of inflation the policy of hyper-cheap money, pursued by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), was wrong, and would make all these other errors even more disastrous than they otherwise would have been.
  So far as the first two criticisms are concerned, those of dishonest accounting and the uncovered inflationary gap, both are fully admitted by the Economic Survey and by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. He said yesterday that, instead of having a real surplus in the last Budget, the Government were putting back into circulation all the money which they had withdrawn in taxation. So far as the inflationary gap goes, the extent of the gap, and how it should be met, is the main subject of the Economic Survey, and the main subject of the speech of the present Chancellor the day before yesterday.
  I shall deal with the level of expenditure at the end of my remarks, but in view of what the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland said yesterday, I think I must say something now upon the subject of cheap money. The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to accuse hon. and right hon. Members on this side of the Committee, and in particular myself, of entering into a conspiracy with financial journalists and the holders of gilt-edged securities to depress the prices in the gilt-edged market—"A conspiracy in the broad sense" I think were the words he used.
  The last time that cheap money was extensively debated in the House was exactly a year ago, and what I and many of my hon. Friends said then, and always have said, was this. There is nothing new about the cheap money policy. It has been pursued for 17 years and, until the right hon. Gentleman got in, with complete success. Secondly, we cannot, when we have a debt of 24,000 million, let money rates rip. A control of money rate of interest is perhaps the most important control we have in our hands. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury last night put up the old straw bogy about 6 per cent. interest, which no one has ever suggested and which he had, therefore, very little difficulty in knocking down.
  What we said, as the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) emphasised today, is this.
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  In a period of great inflationary pressure it is quite wrong and foolish, and will lead to disaster, to attempt to force the longterm rate of interest from 3 to 2½ per cent. There is only one way in which interest can be forced down against the natural reaction of the market, that is, by the unlimited creation of credit, and in the right hon. Gentleman's euphoria period, which I reckon to be the last nine months of 1946, the level of bank deposits increased by 40 per cent of all bank deposits outstanding at the beginning of the war. They increased by over £1,000 million. The reason gilt-edged prices went up was simply because there was Government buying, vast credit expansion, and the banks were forced to buy.
  Why have prices gone down? Not because of a bankers' ramp; bankers' investments have slightly increased in that period of decline. It was not that issue of Transport Stock. There has been a considerable further fall in prices since the issue of the Transport Stock. Prices have gone down because when credit was expanded beyond a certain point it was not possible to go on without losing the confidence of the whole world and the confidence of everybody here. To talk of the level of interest rates as if that were the same as national credit is nonsense. National credit is measured by whether people are prepared to hold one's currency. I need not expand upon that.
  The policy has been broken simply because the nerve of the Treasury broke, and they were not prepared to go on with it. What has the result of the right hon. Gentleman's policy been? It has been that gilt-edged prices are now lower than when he took over; the credit which he created in order to boost prices is still outstanding; and further, the confidence built up over many years, the last 17 years, among investors in gilt-edged securities, has now very largely gone. The confidence that people had that the Treasury were not likely to turn the gilt-edged market into a casino, and chat there would not be very violent moves in prices, and that on the whole, over a long period, there would be slightly falling interest rates has been broken. After all, 2½ per cent. Treasury bonds issued by the right hon. Gentleman on what he described as a proud day for patriots now stand at 24 discount. If anyone likes to work out how many years it would

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  take, if one saved the whole of one's income less tax, to make up the whole of that loss they would find that it was a large slice of anybody's lifetime. It is not unnatural that confidence has been lost.
  The advice we have given all the way through is that one should not try to force the pace. If that advice had been taken, gilt-edged prices would be just about where they were when the right hon. Gentleman took over, which is higher than they are now. There would not have been this great expansion of credit outstanding and the confidence of the country in the Treasury would have been maintained. None of these things has happened. It is for giving this good advice, neglected by the right hon. Gentleman, it is because he is annoyed by that, and by his own failure, that he now accuses us of conspiracy. When that was resented he said that we were thin-skinned. That is not an affliction from which the right hon. Gentleman has ever suffered. That is his first reason, to excuse his own failure. He put forward all this argument in his apologia pro vita sua in the "New Statesman."
  The second reason is that it is a cover plan for an attack on his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
  "Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike, Just hint a fault, and hesitate dislike;"
  What did the right hon. Gentleman's speech contain. His patronising tribute was, "Not too bad for a beginner." He then kicked the "once only" stool from under the right hon. and learned Gentleman that he was much relying upon to support him, and then attacked his policy of abandoning the hyper-cheap money course pursued by the right hon. Gentleman himself. The Chancellor has, in fact, led the conspiracy against this policy. He and I are in the conspiracy together. Prices have gone down precisely because he has abandoned the right hon. Gentleman's policy. He has abandoned the policy of forcing down the interest rates at the cost of unlimited creation of credit. That is what has happened. So much for the cheap money policy.
  The effects of this long-continued inflationary gap and of the size of the Budget, have been precisely what my hon. Friends
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  have always predicted. The first effect has been a foreign exchange crisis. It is worth remembering that last year on current account alone, quite apart from the question of sterling balances, we had a debit balance of £675 million. That is equivalent to a week for a man and wife and two children. We have got through during the past year and now we are told not only that we shall have complete disaster unless we get further American loans, but that even if we do get them our reserves have now run so low that it is impossible for us to get sufficient raw materials to keep our industry running at full stretch. That is by far the most terrible disclosure in the Economic Survey. It makes total nonsense of "ten per cent. more will turn the tide," because only certain people can possibly do ten per cent. more.
  We have, first, this appalling disaster of our balance of payments. Then we have the distortion produced in our economy because we are producing the wrong things and labour is maldistributed. We have this tremendous decline in public morality which is bound to be occasioned by an inflationary policy suppressed by controls. Then we have the tremendous rise in prices and costs which ultimately may make it impossible for us to sell abroad. The rise in prices has a close connection with this expansion of £1,000 million in bankers' deposits. We are now landed in this appalling position, dependent upon foreign charity, with insufficient resources to make our industry run properly, with a decline in public morality, and with our economy distorted. All these things are set out and admitted in the Economic Survey for 1948. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland says that he wants a statue. I would say to him si monumentum requiris circumspice.
  I turn to a less unsavoury and more serious topic. I will consider for a few moments the Budget proposed by the present Chancellor. It is aways de rigueur to start with a compliment. We can, at any rate, say that he has attempted some reasonably honest accounting. Anyway, it is a great improvement on what we had before. He has also faced up to what is the real budgetary problem. Surely, the real budgetary problem is whether the amount of money withdrawn from private people

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  by taxation and through savings is going to be sufficient to cover Government expenditure and capital expenditure. That is the equation which has, somehow or other, to be balanced. That this is the problem, my hon. and right hon. Friends have been urging all the way through this Parliament, but we never got an answer from the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland. He ignored it completely, nor did the Financial Secretary reply. The Financial Secretary, when he is replying, sometimes reminds me of an old parrot, who scratches his head with his claws and says, "Pretty Dalton." I very much hope, for his sake, that he has got his new words correctly.
  Anyway, we have got better accounting, and the actual problem has been faced. Are we, in fact, in balance? Personally, I rather doubt it. There are two factors to which, perhaps, full weight has not been given. First of all, we have the deflationary effect of Marshall aid, though we do not know yet what it is, and, secondly, we have the considerable deflationary effect produced by the liquidation of our assets in Argentina. That is a "once only"; we know that for certain. Once only is more doubtful when we come to the capital levy.
  There are two things I want to say about that. The first is that it is not deflationary at all, and so it amounts to one-third of the expected surplus, I think the surplus is a bit bogus. Secondly, it is absolutely certain to discourage savings, and, if that is so, it would be definitely inflationary. Would anybody believe that it is "once only"? We have had a pledge from the right hon. and learned Gentleman that it is "once only." I ask my hon. and right hon. Friends to consider what is the greatest breach of faith so far committed by this Government in this Parliament? I do not doubt myself what it is. The greatest breach of faith has been the overriding of the Boundary Commission's work in the Representation of the People Bill—a truly dishonourable fraud. Who induced the Government to do that? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bishop Auckland. He is now saying that this should only be a small start. If the Government are willing to break faith once, they will break it again, and I do not think myself that anyone will pay very much attention to their pledges.
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  That brings me to the question which is the deepest question we have to solve. Supposing, theoretically, there was a balance in our economy. Can we really balance our economy by deflation with the present level of expenditure? Is it really possible, with the present level of expenditure? I personally very much doubt if that is possible. The whole of history is against the Government. The whole of history shows that, when you get taxation which amounts to over 30 per cent, of the national income, then prices rise. I cannot help feeling that the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself knows what is going to happen, but he is holding on like a man trying to stop the steam b coming from a boiling kettle by holding one hand over the spout and another on the lid. The result is unsatisfactory; and the level of taxation is not only going to drive up prices, but is also gradually killing the will of the people to thrift and to hard work.
  The hon. Member for North Croydon (Mr. F. Harris) was talking in his very able speech on this particular subject, and I do not think any of us can believe in the success of what the Government are doing. The Government are saying, "We have cut the chicken in half, and we will roast one half, while the other half will lay the, eggs." There are anatomical difficulties.
  How could we meet our problems, because unless expenditure is reduced I am quite certain prices will rise. There are a number of things I am quite certain we could do. First, as the hon. Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) said, I am quite certain we could have just as good or better Armed Forces for a very much smaller price if we had reasonably able Ministers dealing with them. Secondly I am quite certain that if at any time we had had a reasonable policy over Germany, Germany could have kept herself. It is not true, as was said yesterday, that our expenditure on Germany had greatly decreased because we have cut down our expenditure. It has greatly decreased because the Americans are paying, not because we are doing anything about it. If we had realised two and a half years ago that our task was to make Germany keep herself, we would have saved many millions.
  Turning to other Ministries, I do not believe that, the Ministry of Supply is

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  really earning its keep. I believe enormous cuts could be made there. I would draw the attention of the Committee to this: following the Economic White Paper, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech is not budgeting for any decrease in the number of people employed in these various controls. If he really thinks he has closed the inflationary gap, is it not rather odd that he does not budget for a decrease, because these controllers have been made necessary by the fact that we were running a large gap between aggregate demand and aggregate supply? If the gap is closed, and if aggregate demand is equal to aggregate supply, surely most of these people ought to go. But I suspect that the right hon. and learned Gentleman, if he is honest, knows that he has not done that.
  The last point I wish to make is on the question of food subsidies, about which the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) and the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) said a word. Of course, we cannot take the whole thing away at one blow. Of course, we have got to keep milk subsidies and compensate to a certain extent, but I find it is very terrible that no start is being made in reducing them. I believe food subsidies are our old man of the sea. They are cloying our whole economy. The latest Transport House pamphlet on the subject of food subsidies, showing the usual honesty, says that food subsidies are paid by the Government. Of course, everybody knows in fact they are paid by a simple conjuring trick by which money is taken out of one pocket and put into the other. That is a sort of two-card trick by which the quickness of the hand does not deceive the eye. The trouble about the whole thing is that this process has a very strong disincentive effect and I do not believe in the long run it can be maintained.
  I have only one moment left and I would like to end by saying this: Hon. Gentlemen opposite so often pose the question of the level of expenditure as if it were a question of "whether you would rather have the thing to spend the money on or whether you would rather not have it," but surely that is not really the choice at all. The choice is,
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  "Are you prepared to live within your means, or are you prepared to become an American pensioner, to have great unemployment, to have a long-term lowering of your standard of living, to lose your place in the world, and to see the death of a free society". That really is the choice before us. I cannot believe that any patriot can take any other choice than to say, "Whatever it may cause me in suffering, I will see my country lives within its means".
  The White Paper says this is a year of transition, which is what the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Bishop Auckland, said in his first Budget speech—this is a year of transition—but I believe, Major Milner, this is a year of destiny.
  9.25 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): The hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) devoted his speech almost entirely to an attack on my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton).
  Mr. Birch: Not entirely.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I think that the Committee will agree with me when I say that my right hon. Friend is very well able to look after himself.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: "De mortuis…"
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: It is not for me to attempt to defend him. Were that my business tonight, and had I not a number of questions to which hon. Members are expecting an answer, I could very well spend my time doing so.
  Mr. Birch: Full employment for one.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: The hon. Gentleman, as all of us with experience of political life have done on occasion, spent his time being aggressively critical. The only point which I think I should mention before I pass on to other matters is this. I should like to ask hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite—why they leave to a Debate of this kind speeches such as we have just listened to, in which the hon. Member for Flint offered criticisms with regard to the expenditure of the Ministry of Supply and of various other Ministries, and of the overseas expenditure on the Armed Forces.
  Mr. Birch: I have mentioned Germany hundreds of times.
  Brigadier Head: What about defence Debates?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: We have defence Debates and Supply days, and much of the criticism in which the hon. Gentleman indulged during his speech would have been more properly uttered on those occasions.
  This is the fifth Budget which has been presented during the lifetime of this Parliament, and it is interesting—to me, at any rate—to look back, and to remember the points of criticism which hon. Members opposite formerly felt keen about. So far as I can gather, all the things about which they had a great deal to say in the past, have now been entirely forgotten. We got an echo of them from the hon. and gallant Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite) when he put a question about Postwar Credits. I can remember occasions similar to this, when practically the whole of the Debate was spent on Postwar Credits, and why they had not been paid. The hon. and gallant Gentleman asked my right hon. and learned Friend to reconsider the machinery and methods of payment. So far as it is possible, I am sure that he will try to simplify this when the time comes that more of the credits can be paid.
  The hon. and gallant Member asked if it were not possible for the beneficiaries of those who died within the qualifying ages to get some benefit. I am sorry to say that I can hold out no hope whatever. As my right hon. Friend the previous Chancellor said, it is essential that these payments, in so far as they are being made, should be made to those who have reached what we call the two age limits. If they die before having drawn their Postwar Credits and the credits then pass to young people, it is unfair that these young people should be able to draw them before other people. Therefore, I can hold out no hope that my right hon. and learned Friend can alter the machinery to deal with that suggestion.
  During the two days' Debate so far, several hon. Members have referred to the possibility of a State lottery. I must confess that I, for one, had thought the idea to be so fantastic that it would not be raised on an occasion such as this. However, it has apparently received a certain amount of Press publicity, and I
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  gather from the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith) that at least one newspaper has indicated that the majority of the people would like to see a State lottery.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: Two.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Two polls have indicated that the majority of the people of this country would favour the introduction of a State lottery as suggested. As the hon. Member knows, I and my right hon. and learned Friend went into this matter very carefully, but, for a variety of reasons—not all of which I shall have time to give—it was felt impossible for the Government seriously to consider any such suggestion. To begin with, the whole scheme as put to us depended upon an international lottery being instituted. This, in turn, would raise all sorts of difficulties at a time when exchange control exists.
  For those reasons alone, if for no others, it was felt impossible to consider that suggestion. I imagine, for example, that the tickets would have to be "to bearer," and the question would arise, under our exchange control regulations, whether they should or should not circulate in and out of the country. Again, because of exchange control and currency difficulties, it would be essential to make arrangements with other Governments. If we asked other Governments for facilities, they would very likely ask for the same facilities in return. Looking down the years, one can hardly imagiw that the people of this country would favourably consider a series of these lotteries, with one Government competing against another in appealing to the gambling spirit of their nationals. Then, too—and I think this should appeal to all hon. Members—it occurred to us that it would be rather undignified—to put it no higher—for the British Government to be touting round the world for money in this way.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: Before leaving this rather important subject, would the right hon. Gentleman tell us the alternative?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: The alternative has been given on more than one occasion during this Debate, and certainly to the House on numerous occasions. White Papers have been issued; there have been Debates; and the Budget which my right hon. and learned Friend presented on

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  Tuesday is one way by which we intend, with the help of the great mass of the people, to surmount the difficulties which confront us at the moment, purely as a result of the conflict through which the world has just passed.
  A certain amount of criticism from both sides of the Committee has been directed at the extra 2d. which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put on tobacco. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), who made a very useful contribution to the Debate, raised this, and so did my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Leeds (Miss Bacon); others mentioned it in passing.
  It is not true that the Government have found more money for films and for petrol. The change announced today by the Minister of Fuel and Power does not mean that we are to import more petrol. What we are doing is to find the petrol for private car users from the black market. He made it quite clear that this scheme will come into operation on 1st June if the House agrees to certain changes; it will mean that no extra dollars are spent on petrol.
  The President of the Board of Trade has made it quite clear, in answer to Questions on more than one occasion, that the agreement recently made with Hollywood does not mean we are to spend more money on films. Actually, the amount of dollars to go out of the country under this agreement will be almost half as many as would have gone out if the agreement had not been made.
  We have to watch the dollar expenditure on tobacco. It is perfectly right and proper that my right hon. and learned Friend should take steps to call the attention of the smokers of this country to the fact that smoking costs dollars, and that they should not smoke as much as they might in normal times. The hon. Member for Monmouth led us to suppose that my right hon. and learned Friend was thinking entirely of teaching the British public a lesson about tobacco. My right hon. and learned Friend is doing nothing of the kind. It is true that he mentioned it, but that is not the whole of the story. By this extra 2d., he is raising needed revenue to assist in building up a really substantial surplus for which no one has shouted more than hon. Members oppo-
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  site. The only point at issue is whether it is fair, in all the circumstances, to put this extra 2d. on tobacco. Although this extra 2d. is substantial, and it is certainly substantial to heavy smokers, it is our view that all classes will be willing to bear it as they realise in increasing numbers that we must save dollars and raise revenue for a substantial surplus.
  I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for North Croydon (Mr. F. Harris) on his maiden speech. It is an ordeal to make a speech in the House at any time, and it is certainly an ordeal to make one's first. Although I do not agree with a great deal of what he said, I was envious of his assurance and of the way he spoke. It is quite obvious that he will, as the months go on, speak with even greater assurance. He said that he was a product of private enterprise, and I understand, from what I hear, that he has certainly done extremely well under the old capitalist system. He told us that he believed in competition, and then almost in the next breath went on to complain that socialised concerns were competing with private industry. If he believes in competition, he must not squeal if he finds that certain socialised concerns are standing up to the industries in which he may be interested. He also talked, of bulk buying. I am afraid that his knowledge of the facts are not very extensive. He said that bulk buying is inefficient, wasteful and costly because civil servants do the buying. The Committee know very well that nothing of the kind actually takes place. Bulk buying is done by the very men whom he said should do the buying—that is the men in the various industries concerned, who have great knowledge of them.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) if I would answer a query which he put to the Economic Secretary during the Debate yesterday. The noble Lord said in his speech that he noted that there was a Budget surplus last year of £658 million of which only £413 million had been used to decrease the floating debt. He asked for an assurance that the surplus mentioned by my right hon. and learned Friend would this time be used to decrease the floating debt. I can assure him that it will be used to decrease debt. Whether all of it will go towards decreasing the floating debt is another matter.

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  As he and the Committee know, in Section 70 of the Finance Bill last year, power was taken to use the money, as and when it accrued, to repay funded debt or other obligations falling due. Some of it was used to pay off a portion of the floating debt. We intend to ask the House in the Finance Bill this year to pass a similar provision. It is my right hon. and learned Friend's decision, which I think he mentioned during his Budget speech, to follow the same course as was taken last year to see that the surplus, as it accrues, is used for the reduction of debt, which included the paying off of matured obligations like Defence Bonds, for example.
  I was also asked if I would answer a query put by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis), who made a most interesting speech yesterday. The same point was taken up by the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft), and by other speakers today. It was whether my right hon. and learned Friend would consider the possibility of simplifying and improving the P.A.Y.E. system of collecting taxes. In particular, the hon. Member for Devizes called attention to an article by Mr. Chambers on this subject in "Lloyds Bank Review," which I take it most Members of the Committee have read. I think that there was a good deal in what Mr. Chambers had to say. I am positive that my right hon. and learned Friend will in the course of the year, as always, be most willing to study suggestions of this sort to see whether it is possible to simplify the present method of P.A.Y.E. If we can save the Inland Revenue trouble and avoid their taking on staff, no one will be more willing and eager to do that than my right hon. and learned Friend.
  This afternoon the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities called attention to Rule 9 of Schedule E. As he proceeded with his speech, I made absolutely sure that it was Rule 9 and 10 to which he referred. He seemed to imagine—perhaps I misunderstood him—that the wording was different in Rule 10 from Rule 9. The wording is the same in both rules and the spirit of the operation of both rules by the authorities is the same. It would appear, however, from what he said that either the wording
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  was different in some way or the rules were operated in a different way. This is not so.
  Another question which has been put to me concerns the Entertainments Duty. I am sorry that more hon. Members have not dealt with the proposals made by my right hon. and learned Friend in this direction. I think that we all agree that the change in the rates for the living theatre can be applauded and supported. I think, too, that we all acclaim the proposals of my right hon. and learned Friend so far as rural parishes are concerned. In the course of the Debate an hon. Member asked how a parish would be defined. The definition, as far as England and Wales are concerned, is laid down in the Local Government Act, 1933,, and, so far as Scotland is concerned, in the Local Government (Scotland) Act of 1947. Therefore, we see no reason why the proposal should not work smoothly and without any ambiguity.
  The hon. Member for Monmouth made an extremely aggressive speech. I do not complain of that. He increased the temperature considerably but none of us took him too seriously. I am not much perturbed by the apparent heat that he gave forth, but he had some curious things to say about savings. I understood from his speech that his whole attitude to savings would be changed, like that of Paul on the road to Damascus, by the kind of reply I might give him tonight. That is a terrible responsibility to place upon me and I would like to say that I am rather borne down by it. But that would not be strictly true. I know that his bark is worse than his bite and I feel that, whatever I may say tonight, his interest in national savings and his innate patriotism will make him go on supporting the national savings movement. In spite of the special contribution, I can assure him that people's savings will be safe—[An HON. MEMBER:"Safe within limits "]—and that there is absolutely no intention on the part of this Government to go back on obligations which have been entered into so far as savings are concerned.
  Sir A. Salter: If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, I would like to ask him a question concerning what is, I think, a real difficulty. The Chancellor contemplates, regarding the capital levy, that ii will naturally and rightly be paid to a large

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  extent by disposing of capital. Any man who does meet the demand in that way must necessarily during the year be doing the opposite of saving. Can he then go on to a platform and ask other people, poorer than himself, to do precisely the opposite of what he is rightly and necessarily going to do?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is assuming too much. The argument he is using is an argument which can be used against anybody paying any bills whatever.
  Sir A. Salter: The man would have to pay this bill, as the Chancellor recognises, by reducing his capital. He would have to meet current expenses out of capital resource. If he does that and goes on a savings platform, he is compelled to advocate that other people should live within their incomes with a margin, whereas he is doing the opposite.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: What I said still holds true. I would add that the argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman is not only in favour of paying no bills at all but is also in favour of not paying any taxes. Obviously we must not let our dislike for a certain form of taxation, run away with our common sense or cloud reality. If one has obligations, either to the Inland Revenue, or to one's butcher or baker, one must pay one's bills and by that amount, one ceases to save—
  Mr. Jennings: That is out of income.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: We are in an inflationary situation, and the whole tenor of my right hon. and learned Friend's speech was directed in this Budget to two ends. The first was to build up a substantial surplus, including both above and below the line expenditure, in order to relieve the country from the risk of inflation; the second, to give incentives to the producers by a rearrangement of taxation. We cannot give incentives to producers by reducing certain forms of taxation without compensating for these reducfions by raising extra taxation elsewhere. For that reason and for no other the Special Contribution is being levied, and it is begging the question to say that all the strictures which the hon. Member for Monmouth made are true because some people may have to find a portion or even all of it out of savings.
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The Chancellor said that a capital levy was a very attractive suggestion and that he rejected it on administrative grounds only and for the present only. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconcile that statement with the "once-for-all" cry. Will he do that?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I was coming to that. I have against the hon. Gentleman's name a note "once-for-all." This was a reminder to me that he had made that point and that it would be my duty to try to answer it, if I could in the time allotted to me. I do not pretend that I shall satisfy him, but I will try. He and the Committee can take it that when my right hon. and learned Friend used that phrase, he meant it. Therefore, in so far as the Special Contribution is concerned, it is a once-for-all levy—
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Is it a capital levy?
  Major Bruce: That is what hon. Gentlemen opposite call it.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: That is what the Opposition call it. It is a capital levy to some people who come into the upper ranges of Surtax payers who, with Surtax and Income Tax added may not have enough income in any given year to pay this impost as well as their other Inland Revenue taxes. It will mean that they will have to eat into their capital to some extent. But they will not have to eat into it to the enormous extent which some hon. Members opposite would lead us to believe.
  Hon. and right hon. Members on this side are amazed at the leniency of my right hon. and learned Friend. Those who have read their "Financial Times" today will see that a scale is given showing what the contribution actually means as a percentage of capital. For a man with an income of £50,000 a year the percentage on his capital is only 1.93 per cent., and I do not think that that will either prevent anybody going on to a savings platform or—[Interrup,tion.] If what the hon. Member for Monmouth and others want is an assurance from my right hon. and learned Friend that he did not mean once for all, and if they want a special contribution year after year, I have not the slightest doubt that my right hon. and learned Friend will consider that suggestion and possibly, act upon it if he thinks it wise so to do—
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Then it means nothing at all.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: It is the case of the housemaid's baby all over again.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: I think that hon. Members opposite can take it that if the Chancellor says "once for all" about this particular type of contribution, he means what he says.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Circulate the friendly societies.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Certain other questions were asked about the Special Contribution and its effect on agriculture. Some of the points raised were obviously Committee points and will be better dealt with when we come to consider the Clauses of the Finance Bill in detail. However, I should make it plain that the agricultural owner-occupier will be under no liability in respect of the land that he farms. And, as I think my hon. Friend said last night, the ordinary farmer need have no fear. He is farming, and the Contribution will not touch him at all. This Contribution is levied on individuals as such, although husband and wife for this purpose are taken as one.
  Quite a number of hon. Members suggested that a greater incentive should be given by increasing the earned income allowance. I would remind the Committee that my right hon. and learned Friend has raised it to £400 and one-fifth. It has never been raised so high at any time before, in peace-time, and therefore I can claim that my right hon. and learned Friend has gone a considerable way towards helping a section of the community that needs and well deserves help, that is, the middle class professional and technical classes.
  Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: North Croydon.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: What is wrong with North Croydon? Is the suggestion that hon. Members on this side should sink to the depths of hon. Members on that, and bring forward proposals according to whether they suit this or that section of the community? Whether the middle-classes vote Labour or Conservative is quite immaterial so far as this matter is concerned. The point is that we want at
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  this stage of our national history to assist those who produce, and this is one of the methods by which we think that can be done. For that reason, and for that reason alone, we think the Committee will approve our proposals.
  It being Ten o'Clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress: to sit again Tomorrow.

  BARYTES MINERS (TOWELS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. R. I. Taylor.]
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Inside and outside the House there has been a considerable amount of talk and discussion on the question of rules, regulations and restrictions. We on this side of the House have often been challenged by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to give an example of where these rules and restrictions are operating in the way in which we say they frequently operate. One of the frequent targets for attack is the system, which is found all too frequently within the Civil Service and Government Departments, of what is commonly known as "passing the buck" from one Department to another, and one Ministry to another.
  The particular incident to which I desire to draw attention tonight is, in my view, unparalleled, and is the absolute height of fatuity. I hope the House will forgive me if, during the course of what I have to say, I quote fairly largely from correspondence. The story concerns the Malehurst Barytes Company, of Minsterley, Shropshire, manufacturers of all sorts of barytes, which is comparatively unimportant at this stage. The story begins on 19th September last year, on which date the company wrote to the Board of Trade and asked if they could receive an application form for the purchase of towels for the use of their miners. These miners number exactly 45, no more and no less. On 1st October the Department wrote back to the Malehurst Company saying:
  "As the contents of your letter of the i9th instant are not within the responsibility of the Board of Trade, it has been sent to

  479
  the Ministry of Fuel and Power at Millbank, which is the address you should use for any further communication on this subject."
  I would like the hon. Gentleman who is to reply to remember that at a later stage when we come to discuss his Department. I cannot quite understand why the Board of Trade sent this to the Ministry of Fuel and Power. What has barytes to do with either fuel or power? The only thing I can imagine is that either the Board of Trade do not know what it is or the word "miner" attracted their attention and so they sent the letter to the Ministry of Fuel and Power. On 8th October, the Malehurst Company received a letter from the Ministry of Fuel and Power in which they said there were no arrangements for the provision of towels from their Department and continued:
  "If, however, you are under an obligation to provide washing facilities for the workers, application should be made by you to the local factory inspector."
  On 10th October, a letter was sent from the Malehurst Company to the Inspector of Factories and in the last paragraph, the pertinent one, they stated:
  "For your information we beg to advise you that we have 45 miners in our employ and should be pleased if you can grant us the necessary permit to purchase towels for the above employees."
  That was on 10th October. On 11th October the Inspector of Factories wrote back to the Malehurst Company:
  "As your mine is not subject to the provisions of the Factories Act, 1937, I regret that I am not authorised to issue towel coupons for the persons employed therein, and recommend you to write to His Majesty's Divisional Inspector of Mines in Birmingham to see if he can help you."
  So on 14th October the company wrote to the Inspector of Mines. They said:
  "We have since received a reply from the local factory inspector stating that as our mine is not subject to the provisions of the Factories Act, 1937, he was not authorised to issue towel coupons for the persons employed therein, and suggested that we apply to you to see if you could help us in any way."
  The following day the Divisional Inspector of Mines wrote to the Malehurst Company:
  "In reply to your letter of 14th instant, I have no jurisdiction in this matter, which should be addressed to the Mining Supplies Branch, Ministry of Fuel and Power."
  So we are back to the Ministry of Fuel and Power. We have gone right back to Millbank, where we started. On 16th
  480
  October the Malehurst Company started a new method. They telephoned to the Divisional Inspector of Mines to the effect that they had originally applied to the Ministry of Fuel and Power and had been unable to make progress. The Divisional Inspector suggested that the matter be referred to the company's trade association. This was done and the company was informed by thee trade association, and informed the inspector, that a permit had been refused in a similar case. On hearing of this the Inspector of Mines undertook to make a further effort. On 12th November he telephoned the Malehurst Company and said he had received a reply—he did not say from whom—to his request for a permit for towels, but that it had been said that as there was no provision in this connection for metalliferous mines, he was sorry there was nothing that could be done. He intimated, however, that the question had been taken up with the T.U.C. and the Ministry of Health but could not give any hope for a considerable time, and even doubted whether in the end anything could be granted. On 17th November the company went back to pen and ink again, and gave up the telephone. This is what was said to them in a letter from the Divisional Inspector of Mines:
  "With reference to our recent conversation on the 'phone, for your information I am now informed that it is possible that a supply of towels for your mines may be obtained on application being made by yourselves to the Regional Welfare Officer of the Ministry of Labour and National Service."
  So on 18th November the Malehurst Company wrote to thank the Divisional Inspector of Mines very much for his letter, and said that they would get in touch with the Ministry of Labour. On 18th November the Malehurst Company wrote to the Ministry of Labour:
  "We have been advised by His Majesty's Divisional Inspector of Mines, of Birmingham, to approach you with regard to the supply of towels for our miners. We have had correspondence with a number of Government Departments "—
  that is wonderful moderation on their part at this stage—
  "on this subject, but unfortunately metalliferous miners are not specifically provided for, and it is for this reason we are asking for exceptional action to be taken."
  On 8th December there was a letter to the Malehurst Company from the Regional Controller of the Ministry of Labour:

  481
  "With reference to your letter of 18th November, regarding permits to purchase towels for the use of metalliferous miners, we have referred the matter to the Board of Trade headquarters and we will advise you of their reply as soon as possible."
  I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will remember that his headquarters had previously told this company to address their communications to the Ministry of Fuel and Power. After three weeks' delay, there was a letter to the Malehurst Company from the Regional Controller of the Ministry of Labour:
  "Further to our letter of 8th December, 1947, the Board of Trade regret that you are having to wait for a reply to your inquiry regarding towels for the use of metalliferous miners. Your application has raised issues that will require further examination."
  There was a further three weeks' delay and then the Malehurst Company wrote to the Regional Controller again, saying:
  "We very much regret that we have heard nothing further from you in this connection, and hope in the meantime some action has been taken. We would like to remind you that our first application in this matter was to the Board of Trade on 19th September, 1947"
  After two weeks a letter was written to the Malehurst Company from the Regional Controller of the Ministry of Labour:
  "With reference to your letter of 21st January regarding your application for towels for the use of metalliferous miners. The delay in replying to your request is regretted, but we are still waiting for a decision from the Board of Trade."
  That was on 4th February.
  We have been debating the Budget for two days, so it would not be inappropriate for me if I were to strike some sort of a balance here. This question has gone through four Ministries—the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Fuel and Power, the Home Office arid the Ministry of Labour. Nineteen letters have been written, three telephone calls made and the number involved is 45 workers. There have been six authorities consulted, the chief accountant of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Fuel and Power, His Majesty's Inspector of Factories in Shrewsbury, the Divisional Inspector of Mines, the Regional Welfare Officer of the Ministry of Labour, and the Divisional Controller of the Ministry of Labour. The whole matter has taken 29 weeks, which is seven months, and the
  482
  Malehurst Company still do not know whether they are going to get their towels or not. That was the information I received from them yesterday.
  What I should like to know is what the Parliamentary Secretary proposes to do in this particular instance. Is this company going to get its towels? It is a very small point but it raises very big issues. Who is to be responsible for this appalling muddle which has been going on for seven months? Lastly, what steps is the hon. Gentleman going to take to put his house in order, even if he cannot put in order other houses which are involved?
  I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman stops to think what is happening when this type of behaviour is magnified hundreds of thousands of times in hundreds of thousands of firms all over the country. It is no good he and his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer standing up in the House and rather pathetically saying that people are leaving this country with capital that we cannot afford to see go out of the country. It is this type of behaviour that is causing that to happen. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider the three points I have made—what is he going to do in this particular instance; whom is he going to hold responsible for this happening; and, lastly what is he going to do to put his own house in order?
  10.15 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Belcher): I am aware of the need to put my own house in order in many directions. I would be the last to claim that everything about the Department which I represent is perfect. In this case, I agree, there has been delay and confusion, and I can quite understand the desire of the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Langford-Holt) to find out what it is all about. We have always recognised at the Board of Trade the need to provide towels at the place of work in industries covered by the Factory Acts where the worker suffers a special risk of infection. In the case of miners or quarry workers, the need is for individual towels for use either at pithead baths or at home. But until late in 1946 towel supplies for the home market were not sufficient to justify an individual issue in addition to the ordinary ration. In March, 1947, when the supply had improved somewhat, it

  483
  was agreed that coalminers should be given a supplementary allowance of two coupons per head per annum for towels. The scheme was brought into operation in July, 1947, with the co-operation of the Ministry of Fuel and Power.
  At that time, the position of quarry workers and miners other than coalminers was briefly discussed, but without very much pressure being brought from outside. Therefore, the situation was not discussed at any great length or in any great detail. However, when we made the distribution to coalminers, it attracted applications from employers of other miners. After some negotiation we at the Board of Trade agreed in principle to extend the concession, distribution to be undertaken by the regional offices of other Ministries.
  I agree that this particular application was subject to delay. I agree that the timetable which the hon. Gentleman has produced is open to some criticism, but there are some mitigating factors which I hope he will bear in mind. The first is that, while the Board of Trade are ultimately responsible for towel issues—we are responsible for an awful lot at the Board of Trade—we must get the advice of the Department primarily responsible for a certain industry on its need for towels. That Department usually acts as our 'agent for distribution but, most unfortunately, industries, through sheer perversity, do not fall into distinct grooves. Where there is a works covered by the Factory Acts and where, therefore, the Ministry of Labour are responsible, the works may be attached to a mine for which the Ministry of Fuel and Power are responsible. That is the sort of thing which causes the confusion to which the hon. Member has referred, where we have this shuffling about from one Department to another. It is most difficult to see how that kind of thing can be avoided. It may not be clear when the firm applies to the Board of Trade precisely what types of workers are employed. We are bound to have this dichotomy between one Government Department and another when we are trying to cater for a variety of industries.
  The other point is that during the time referred to by the hon. Member, when these applications were being made, we
  484
  at the Board of Trade were seeking the advice of other people about the needs of miners other than coalminers. While all this was going on, the other Departments concerned were discussing the matter with the Trades Union Congress and we could not get the answer we wanted. At the start of these applications, Malehurst Barytes Company, Limited, were told that there were no arrangements for metalliferous miners as such. I think that it might have helped had they written to the Board of Trade, and said, "We learn that we are not covered by the Factory Acts and that there is no towel issue for our people as such—why not?" It might have helped. I might have been able to go into the question, find out why, and make some arrangements for them.
  Mr. Lanģford-Holt: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but has he not overlooked the fact that his Department was the first Department to receive a letter and that they said, away back in September, that all further communications should be addressed to the Ministry of Fuel and Power?
  Mr. Belcher: That is true, at the beginning, but they were subsequently told differently, and, had they then written back to the Board of Trade and said that they were informed that they could not have the towel issue and asked why not, it would have been possible for me to have gone into the question, and if necessary, made the right arrangements. I am not using that as an excuse for any delay that has taken place. The point is that it has now been decided that these people shall qualify. Letters have been sent to the British Employers' Federation and the Trades Union Congress telling them to advise their individual members to get in touch with the regional offices of the Ministries concerned and to apply for the towels.
  In this case, and in equivalent cases entitled to a grant of towels, an allowance will be made in the form of a coupon-equivalent certificate for two coupons valid for towels only. The hon. Member may like to know that these people can buy a large bath towel for one coupon or a smaller one for half a coupon, which means that workers in these industries can have the equivalent certificate for two

  485
  bath towels or four small ones. It will be given to workers at all mines and quarries, except the clerical, managerial and supervisory staff, who may be expected to keep their hands clean and not require extra towels.
  I am sorry there has been delay, and I would have liked to have avoided it. I think it is in a large measure inevitable because of the difficulty of working out schemes of this kind to give special advantages to particular kinds of people, and it arises from the fact that it is so difficult to pick out one particular section and say they need it as against another section which do not need it. There is the additional complication of having
  486
  different Government Departments responsible for different industries, with the Board of Trade, as usual, carrying a responsibility ultimately for giving the things which these people require.
  I hope the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied with the explanation I have given. I am sorry that there has been this delay, but I hope the matter has now been put right, and that it will not be necessary for him to refer to it again at any subsequent stage.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-four Minutes past Ten o' Clock.

HOUSING
  Requisitioned Houses, Blackpool
  Requisitioned Houses, Blackpool
  Rent Control (Furnished Houses)
  Rent Control (Furnished Houses)
  METROPOLITAN BOROUGHS (RATES)
  METROPOLITAN BOROUGHS (RATES)
NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE
  Cost
  Cost
  Partnerships (Legal Committee)
  Partnerships (Legal Committee)
EDUCATION
  School Site, Burford
  School Site, Burford
  Emergency Trained Teachers
  Emergency Trained Teachers
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Ammonium Nitrate (Price)
  Ammonium Nitrate (Price)
  Manchuria
  Manchuria
  Overseas Visitors (Tourist Voucher Books)
  Overseas Visitors (Tourist Voucher Books)
FUEL AND POWER
  Petrol Allowances
  Petrol Allowances
  Coal (Cleaning)
  Coal (Cleaning)
  ORDNANCE SURVEY (PATHS)
  ORDNANCE SURVEY (PATHS)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Orthopædic Delegation (Dollar Allotment)
  Orthopædic Delegation (Dollar Allotment)
  African Colonies (Paymaster-General's Tour)
  African Colonies (Paymaster-General's Tour)
  POOL PARK CAMP, RUTHIN
  POOL PARK CAMP, RUTHIN

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

PETROL FOR PRIVATE CARS.
4.5 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government the question of which I have given them private Notice—namely, whether they are now in a position to make a statement on petrol rationing for private cars.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, the Minister of Fuel and Power is making a statement in another place to-day and, if I may, I will read that statement to your Lordships, using the Minister's own words.
The statement is as follows:
"Since the withdrawal of the basic ration and the other restrictions imposed last autumn, substantial savings in petrol consumption—and therefore in dollar expenditure—have been achieved. These savings, I estimate, amounted in total, up to the end of March, to 430,000 tons which would have cost 18,500,000 dollars. And each week now the level of consumption is about 21,000 tons less than it would have been if no cuts had been imposed—representing at present prices an annual saving of about 50,000,000 dollars. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer has emphasised, the need to hold down dollar expenditure to-day is just as great as it was last autumn. The European Recovery Programme has saved us from the immediate prospect of further drastic and damaging cuts in our dollar imports of food and materials, including oil, but it does not permit us to increase such imports above their current levels. Nor must we forget that the increasing demand for oil—particularly in the United States, which absorbs two-thirds of the world output—combined with a lack of
1246
tankers and refinery capacity, will almost certainly give rise, for some years, to an acute world shortage of petroleum, and that this may have repercussions on the supplies which we ourselves can obtain.
In these circumstances the Government have decided that we cannot possibly afford to give up the valuable economies achieved as a result of the measures adopted last autumn. Any changes in the present rationing arrangements must therefore be subject to the condition that they do not involve an increase in total petrol consumption. At the same time the Government fully recognise that the present arrangements are in many respects unsatisfactory. The question therefore arises: Can they be altered so as to give greater satisfaction without an increase in petrol consumption? The first and most formidable obstacle to any improvement is the existence of the black market. There can be no doubt that only the complete withdrawal of the basic ration, with all its tiresome consequences, could have achieved economies on the necessary scale—so long as the black market existed. For a mere reduction in the basic ration would have only intensified the demand for black market petrol and the scale of illicit transactions. And equally, so long as such transactions are possible, the restoration of a small basic ration would certainly be accompanied by heavy losses through the black market and a consequent increase in petrol consumption. Finally, although the withdrawal of the basic ration diminished the importance of the black market, there is reason to believe that the leakage of petrol through this source still remains substantial.
In order to find some solution to this problem I appointed a Committee last January under the Chairmanship of Mr. Russell Vick, K. C., to investigate its causes and to suggest remedies. Their report was published last night and honourable members will be aware of its findings. I should like to express my sincere thanks to the Committee who have done their work with great vigour and speed and, I believe, have found an effective solution to this most difficult problem. I would also like to

1247
thank the organisations and persons who have assisted them. The Government have decided to accept in the main the proposals of the Committee, including the passing of special legislation on penalties for those who engage in the black market. A Bill giving effect to this is already being drafted and I hope we shall have the support of all sides of the House in securing its speedy passage. I must make it plain that the Government regard this Bill as essential to the further changes which I am about to describe, and that the latter cannot be put into effect until the Bill becomes law. If the Vick Committee proposals succeed—as I am confident they will with the backing of strong public opinion—then I believe we can count on saving up to perhaps 100,000 tons of petrol a year which is probably still being transferred illicitly through the black market.
My Department has for some time also been engaged in examining the system of supplementary allowances with a view to saving petrol and simplifying administration. In this we have had the assistance and advice of Mr. W. B. Reddaway of Clare College, Cambridge, who has had exceptional experience in dealing with rationing problems in the Board of Trade. The task here is a formidable one and we have not by any means completed it. But I think we may reasonably count on saving at least 20,000 tons a year by cuts in certain allowances. Representatives of the Joint Committee of the Automobile Association, the Royal Automobile Club and the Royal Scottish Automobile Club are already collaborating with us in this review, and I propose to appoint a Standing Advisory Committee, whose functions would be to advise on any measures to simplify and improve the rationing system which may be put forward, and to supervise the carrying out of measures to suppress the black market. Accordingly, I have asked Mr. Russell Vick to be Chairman of the Committee and his two colleagues Mr. W. E. Parker and Chief Detective Inspector Chapman to be members. I have also invited Mr. Gibson and Captain Phillips, the Joint Secretaries of the Committee of motoring organisations, Mr. Grafton, of the
1248
Motor Agents' Association and Mr. Reddaway to serve on the Committee.
In all, then, I hope by suppressing the black market and by the cuts in supplementary allowances to save 120,000 tons of petrol a year. This is all the extra petrol we have to distribute if total consumption is not to rise. Distributed as a basic ration of the old type, this would allow only some 30 miles a month per car. It would be of some advantage to those already receiving supplementary allowances but of little or no value—and therefore quite unfair—to those with motor vehicles laid up. We have therefore decided instead on a different plan under which nearly all the extra petrol saved goes to those who get none now. The new arrangements will be as follows:—

(1) Anybody who licenses a private car or motor cycle will be entitled to a small all-purpose petrol allowance to be used entirely as the owner wishes. This will be at the rate of one-third of the old basic ration and so will be sufficient for only about 90 miles motoring per month, as compared with 270 miles per month provided through the basic ration immediately before it was withdrawn.

(2) In contrast to the old basic ration this allowance will not be additional to the existing supplementary allowances. To avoid confusion I therefore propose to call it a "standard" ration. A reduction equivalent to the new standard ration will be made from all supplementary allowances as they are issued. Thus those now receiving supplementary petrol equal to or exceeding the "standard" ration will receive in total no more petrol coupons than before; and I must make it plain that no appeals against the application of this rule in individual cases can be considered. I realise, of course, that this will seem rather hard to some, but we just cannot at present afford the dollar expenditure which would be necessary to give everybody the standard ration in addition to their existing supplementary allowances, and this is the decisive factor. Holders of supplementary allowances will of course be entitled to use their "standard"

1249
ration quite freely and without restriction.

(3) The standard ration will be valid for the month of issue and the succeeding five months so that those who wish to do so may accumulate their coupons for as much as six months. Moreover during the first six months of the new system, coupons valid during the period may also be used in advance.

(4) Motorists who do not draw supplementary allowances will be entitled to obtain a motor vehicle licence for their car or motor cycle at half the normal rate. My right honourable and learned friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be tabling later in the day the necessary resolution on this matter. I also propose to discuss at once with representatives of the insurance companies the question of a reduction in premiums being granted in similar cases.

(5) Arrangements will be made for an issue of petrol for private motor boats and aircraft at one-third of the rate in force immediately before the withdrawal of the basic ration.

(6) As a corollary of these changes, I propose to revoke the order restricting the operation of hire cars to a radius of 20 miles from the place in which they are normally kept.

These changes will come into effect on June 1, which is the earliest possible date by which the operations against the black market can be fully effective. I do not expect for one moment that these arangements will satisfy everyone but I claim that, given the condition that we cannot afford more dollars for petrol, they have great advantages. Those who have been obliged to lay up their cars or motor cycles-may bring them out again without excessive cost for a modest mileage, which they may concentrate or spread in time as they wish. Those with supplementary allowances, who have enjoyed no little benefit and convenience from keeping their cars on the road, now have as well a much valued element of freedom. Finally, the clearing up of the black market, which is the foundation on which the whole scheme rests will, I am certain, receive the backing of all good citizens. I have explained these new proposals in confidence to the representatives of
1250
the main motoring organisations, who have given them their full support, and for the reasons I have outlined I am confident that they will be welcomed by the majority of motorists as constituting a marked improvement on the present arrangements."
4.12 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, we shall, of course, wish to examine carefully the details of the long and complex reply which we have just heard, but I should like to say at one, on behalf of those who sit on this side of your Lordships' House, that we are very glad to hear the statement which has just been made by the Lord Chancellor. We, who sit on these Benches, have, as your Lordships know, long pressed for some relaxation of the petrol restrictions. I must confess that, having listened to the Lord Chancellor's statement, I am still somewhat bewildered as to why the basic ration was abolished last year. The main reason given at that time, so far as I remember was that it was necessary to do so owing to the badness of our economic and, particularly, of our dollar position. That position as the Lord Chancellor, himself, has said, still persists.
Now we are told that a main cause—perhaps the main cause—of the Government's action, was the black market. This is a completely new story—or it has never been given so much importance before. I hardly think that it is to be regarded as an adequate explanation. Surely, there ought to have been other methods of dealing with this evil without penalising to such an extent law-abiding persons. Seeing that it is possible, now, to relax these restrictions it seems to me a great pity that car owners, the general public and garage proprietors should have been put to so much inconvenience for so many months. However, having said that, I will add that I am glad to hear that the ration is to be restored, and I repeat that we shall study the proposals with care.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor whether it is intended to bring into force all the recommendations of the Russell Vick Committee just as they stand?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No. The statement which I read, if I remember rightly, contained the phrase: "in the

1251
main," and the fact that the statement contains that phrase leads me to suppose that the entire recommendations will not be carried out. I cannot tell the noble Earl any more than that at the present moment.

RADIOACTIVE SUBSTANCES BILL. [H.L.]
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make provision with respect to radioactive substances and certain apparatus producing radiation, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Henderson.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

NATIONAL PARKS AND FOOTPATHS.
4.16 p.m.
LORD MERTHYR LORD MERTHYR rose to call attention to the desirability of implementing at an early date the recommendations contained in the Reports of the Special Committees on National Parks, on Footpaths and Access to the Countryside, and on Conservation of Nature in England and Wales; to ask His Majesty's Government when it is intended to introduce legislation with this object in view; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name and to ask the question which accompanies it. It is just sixty years this year since the movement began for a greater degree of freedom of access to open spaces and wild country in these islands. Many attempts were made in Parliament before the war to secure this, and all of them were unavailing till a year before the outbreak of hostilities. Your Lordships, no doubt, will remember that the late Lord Bryce was one of the originators of this movement, and I think that honour should be paid not only to him but to all who have followed him in this matter and who have worked in greater or less degree to achieve what now seems to be almost, if not quite, within our reach.
I am reminded (and I am very glad to know) that amongst the many others who have worked in this field is the
1252
present leader of your Lordships' House. I think it was in 1930 that he took an interest in this matter. In that year the Government, possibly through him, in effect said to the people whom I may call the reformers in this matter: "Go away now and mobilise public opinion, and then come back and see what can be done about it." Well, partly owing to the war and to the change in people's views and ideas which the war caused, public opinion in this country has now been mobilised and has reached such a condition that some measure of legislation in this matter is demanded, and the Government have indicated on more than one occasion that it is their intention to introduce it.
As your Lordships will also be well aware, at the end of the war the Government appointed the National Parks Committee, to investigate and report on the whole of this subject. That Committee appointed two sub-committees, and a trinity of Reports were laid before Parliament getting on for a year ago and are now under consideration by the Government. The fact that those Reports are commonly called the Hobhouse Reports is, I think, a fitting tribute to the very great amount of work performed by the Committees' Chairman. The Reports were published last July. Shortly after that, the Minister of Town and Country Planning held a Press conference, and it is partly as the result of what was said by the right honourable gentleman at that conference that I am here this afternoon to move this Motion and ask this question.
I think it will do no harm if I say quite frankly that the words used by the Minister on that occasion caused, I hope unnecessarily, some despondency and apprehension in the minds of those who have been seeking the establishment of national parks and other concurrent reforms. The implication which seemed to be justified from the remarks made by the Minister was that there would be no legislation introduced except to form a body to manage national parks. In other words, there will be no national authority in the shape of a National Park Commission as conceived and recommended by the Hob-house Committees. It is principally on that topic that I wish to speak this afternoon.
I would like to emphasise that when the Report was published, the Committee

1253
had full knowledge of the Town and Country Planning Bill, which became an Act of Parliament in the same month. It would not therefore be justifiable to say that the Report would in any sense have been different had the Committee known what was in that Bill. The suggestion, however, seems to be—and again I hope I am wrong—that there is sufficient in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, to ensure that the areas in this country which are thought of as national parks can be properly established and protected as such without the appointment of a national organisation. Those outside Parliament who have taken an interest in this matter are disturbed by that suggestion. It is their considered opinion—and I entirely share it—that if there is to be no national (and the emphasis is on that word) organisation to administer the national parks, then the parks will not be national parks. They may be parks, but they will be local parks. Therefore, the paramount point I wish to make to-day is that a national body is essential and indispensable.
In my opinion that organisation must not be advisory or a mere body which encourages others to act. It must be a body which has the necessary statutory powers to act itself. It must have effective powers and must not be an ornamental body to advise others. In my submission, it must be a body responsible directly to the Minister which has the necessary authority to set up, manage, regulate and plan national parks. The recommendation of the Committee is that there should be such a national body composed of a chairman and eight other members, not drawn from any particular part of the country but people—both men and women no doubt—who have the necessary personal qualifications to administer national parks. It is almost needless to say that in the United States, which, together with Canada, may be regarded as the pioneer country in this matter, there is a Federal organisation, and has been for a very long period. I do not suppose anybody would contemplate the administration of national parks in the United States without such a Federal body.
Secondly, the Report recommends that there shall be a committee for each of the twelve national parks which are suggested. It recommends that half of the members of those park committees shall be recommended by the National Parks Commission
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—that is, nationally appointed—and half shall be appointed by the local authorities, with a chairman appointed nationally and so just tipping the scales in favour of the national interest. That seems to me to be, if anything, only just on the sale side; that is, just weighted sufficiently in favour of the national as opposed to the local interest. I am well aware that there are many who will say that the local interest should dominate, but, having thought over the matter carefully, I submit-most confidently that those national parks will never be a success unless they are administered on a national basis. There is nothing to preclude sympathy and understanding of local interests and problems. On the contrary, I anticipate that a large proportion of those who are nationally appointed will be local people, and therefore, in fact though perhaps not on paper, the local interests will be in the majority.
There appears to be a suggestion that the day-to-day management of the parks could be done by some kind of joint committee of local authorities. I am aware that here I am on controversial ground, but in my experience, joint boards have, on the whole, not been a success. I do not think for a moment that the necessary efficiency will be forthcoming if that idea is adopted. If there are to be no park committees, as recommended in the Report, there will have to be some kind of joint committee of local authorities. I would like to draw your Lordship' attention to the fact that in the area of two of the national parks proposed no fewer than five county or county borough councils are concerned, and in two others four are concerned. In only two out of the twelve national parks is only one authority concerned. Therefore, in the absence of some park committee appointed nationally, the joint local authorities committee will be the rule. I personally think that will be an unhappy state of affairs.
If ever there were a new venture which required expert knowledge and guidance, it is surely this. We want to make as few mistakes as possible. We want to take full benefit of the experience of other countries, because unhappily we are not foremost in this matter, and we follow others. I submit that only by means of appointing a national expert authority which will specialise in these matters can that result be achieved. If the parks are

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to be administered purely by the local interest, there is, as I see it, a great danger of that interest being allowed to suppress the best interests of the public. The Minister himself, in commenting on the Town and Country Planning Act, stated that it would be an advantage to have as planning authorities the county councils rather than the district councils, because, as he expressed it, they would be more remote from local prejudices and local hopes. I use that argument in stating that if there is a national authority, it will, in turn, be more remote than the county councils and less amenable to local prejudices.
I now wish to deal for a moment with the question of what authority should be responsible for the actual planning of the parks. The question is whether the Town and Country Planning Act of 1947 shall operate throughout the parks—in which case, of course, the areas concerned will fall under the county councils—or whether, on the other hand, as is recommended by the Hobhouse Committee, the planning shall be done by the park committees. While I admit at once that in some counties, if it is done by the park committees, the work of the resultant county council committee will be reduced to negligible proportions, I would emphasise that it would be in the interests of efficiency if the recommendation of the Report were carried out—that is to say, that the planning of these park areas under the Act is done by the park committees, properly appointed. I would like to mention that, so far as I am aware, since the Report has been published there has been no objection to it by the county councils. I cannot be sure that I am right in that statement, but I can assure your Lordships that I have not heard of any objections by the county councils to this particular recommendation in the Report. I, therefore, express the hope that this recommendation will be adopted.
I think it is impossible to deny that there not only may be, but in some cases will be, a conflict between the national and the local interest; and to my mind the Report recommends the best way of resolving this conflict. Again, I submit, there should be some national body who in any dispute or conflict with any other Government Department can represent
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the interests of those who will use national parks. Only a week ago to-day I was present at an inquiry held by the Minister of Town and Country Planning into an application by the War Office to retain a certain area which forms the very heart of one of the proposed national park areas. Although the room was full of representatives of all kinds of organisations, there was nobody there charged with the responsibility of defending the interests of national parks—at least, nobody charged directly with that task. I do not say that the subject was not mentioned; of course it was. But there was nobody there on behalf of any Government Department or any national organisation to state the case for national parks. I felt at the time, and I still feel, that there ought to have been.
I am glad to see that there are many speakers this afternoon, and therefore I do not propose to detain your Lordships much longer. However, I must say a word about the urgency of this matter. It is possible for a limited time, when plans are submitted for development, to say that the plans shall be held up until the question of national parks has been determined. But it is not possible to go on saying that for more than a limited time. I speak from experience as a member of a planning committee who have had to say that, and who are going on saying it, even though they are well aware that there are limitations to the number of times that it can be said. When the building restrictions are lifted—if they ever are—the matter will become of acute urgency, because there will then be applications coming in to build in areas which it is proposed to set aside for national parks. It will be difficult to refuse such applications if the parks have not already been established. I submit, therefore, that there is a very cogent reason for the immediate establishment of national parks; in fact, it is almost true to say that it is now or never. I have in mind one particular area in this country which would have been a national park had it not been spoiled by too much building in the wrong place, in the wrong way and with the wrong materials. In other words, it is now too late in that particular area. There may be others. If something is not done in the next few years I fear that it may be too late to have any national parks at all.
I must say a word about the other two Reports which I have included in my Motion. The deplorable fact is that in this country, to-day and every day, footpaths and public highways are disappearing—physically vanishing. Your Lordships will probably all agree that that is so. The war has accentuated the movement in that direction. Footpaths are being ploughed up, and it may be quite right morally that they should. I submit, however, that if footpaths are to fade away, it is far better that this should happen legally, rather than illegally, as is now the case. This Report states that there should be ways and means not only of establishing new public footpaths, but of legally closing old ones. We do not want to have it both ways; we frankly admit that there may be a case for the cessation of a highway. But the present state of affairs, based as it is on the Act of 1835, is admitted by almost everybody to be unsatisfactory.
Then, again, with regard to access, as I stated before, in 1939 the Access to Mountains Act was actually passed into law after a long chapter of agitation in Parliament. But that Act has never been used—not once. What is the reason for that? A lot of people—although I was not one of them—said at the time that it would never be used, and that it was unworkable. It is certainly true that it has never been worked. I think the main reason for that is that everybody is waiting for another Act. They say: "Well, we could work this extremely inconvenient Act of Parliament, but let us wait. We hope very much that some further legislation is coming." That, I feel, is another reason why the urgency of this matter should be stressed. Nobody wants to be unreasonable. Everybody admits that there must be safeguards to protect all interests—agricultural, sporting and others. When all that has been considered, I submit that there is an overwhelming case for something to be done, and to be done without undue delay, to increase the freedom of access to the countryside of millions of people in this country.
If I may say so respectfully, I do not want in any way to embarrass His Majesty's Government in this matter. I am well aware that in answer to a question in another place (in fact, I think to several questions) it has been stated that these matters are under active consideration.
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But there are several questions of policy involved, and, although they are entirely of a non-Party nature they are not free from controversy. I think your Lordships will agree that on the whole it is better, rather than to wait until a Bill is published and then come here and say-that we do not agree with it, that we want it drastically altered, to come here now and say, with the utmost respect and humility, that we are trying to mould the policy of His Majesty's Government in the direction in which a large number of people in this country who claim to represent a large body of public opinion urgently feel that it should go. I beg to move for Papers.
4.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, the noble Lord who has moved this Motion has long and close personal experience with the administrative questions involved, and he has expressed with admirable lucidity a case which I submit is well worthy of the sympathetic consideration of your Lordships. He undoubtedly represents a widespread opinon in the body of the nation. A letter was published in The Times a few weeks ago covering precisely the points that lave been stated to-day by the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr. That letter was signed by Sir Patrick Abercrombie, the Chairman of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, by Lord Crawford, the Chairman of the National Trust and by Sir Norman Birkett, the Chairman of the Standing Committee on National Parks.
It was in July, 1947, that the Hob-house Report was published, and I am sure that all your Lordships will join in what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, as to our gratitude to Sir Arthur Hobhouse for the invaluable work which he has done in this connection, and for the support given to him by his colleagues. That Report, when it was published, was received with almost universal approval by the public as represented by the Press, but it now seems possible—I hope not probable—that one of the most essential provisions of the recommendations of that Report is not to be carried out. That provision was that the initiative in the establishment of national parks should be in the hands of a permanent Commission appointed for that purpose, with, as its specific duty, not only the establishment but the superintendence of

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the working of the whole scheme; and that in each locality where there is a national park there should be a permanent Committee consisting partly of representatives of the local authorities—but only partly and not solely. Those local Committees should also contain direct representatives of the national interest appointed by the National Parks Commission.
Now the question which is at issue is whether that recommendation should be carried out or not. The contention of those who support the view of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, and of all the bodies interested in this matter who for many years have been promoting national parks, is that the participation of a central body in the local administration of these parks should be statutory and adequate. It should be an integral part of the whole edifice from the beginning, and not merely a supplemental decoration added subsequently. Now this question of how national interest is to be represented, how local interest is to be represented, and how the two shall be interleaved, has frequently arisen in the course of the growth of our national systems of government and administration.
For example, our highway system was originally a purely local matter. Each town and district made its roads and paid for them. Then it was found that they were too small, and the work was transferred to the counties and larger boroughs, who had to supply part, at all events, of the necessary finance. Afterwards, that also was found insufficient, and with the advent of the motor it was considered essential that there should be national highways and that a Ministry of Transport, which represented the interest of the country as a whole, should be established with its own funds, providing for the execution of its own duties. Similarly, the housing of the people was regarded as a matter purely for local authorities. Later, the central Government, by means of subsidies, influenced the action of the local authorities, and the central Government were given statutory powers to enforce upon local authorities the execution of certain duties which they might otherwise neglect. The same applies also in regard to education and also the Health Service.
There is always a danger in these matters of too much centralisation—that
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is true—of government from Whitehall overriding legitimate local sentiment. We have to be on our guard against that danger. But, on the other hand, it is the case that while the great majority of local authorities may be fully qualified to perform the duties imposed upon them, individual authorities here and there may neglect those duties and may not have a sufficiently high standard of qualification among their members to realise the importance of the major and more permanent considerations, such as those which inspire a movement like that for the establishment of national parks. Local opinion may not always be sufficiently enlightened. Industrial and financial interests are very strong, and they naturally exercise pressure upon the local authorities. National parks appeal to more spiritual and idealistic considerations, but these may be overridden by more financial considerations, locally pressed.
I remember that a few years ago, I happened to be at Windermere and was waiting on one of the landing stages for a boat. I got into conversation with a group of women who were evidently part of an excursion from one of the big Yorkshire towns. In the course of that conversation I said that I had not been to Windermere for a good many years, and I was surprised to find that it remained as it had been previously. I said that I expected to find it surrounded by hotels, boarding houses and tea rooms, but it was left almost unchanged. One woman said, "Oh, there has been some improvement, but not much." That is the spirit that I am afraid might influence a certain number of local authorities. We even find that a progressive local authority like the London County Council, who have taken so keen an interest in the re-planning of London, recently and under the great pressure to provide the public with housing accommodation, have been eating into the Green Belt which they had themselves approved, in order to find housing sites. Even during the war they endorsed a proposal of some local authorities to use the land around the edges of Hyde Park and other Royal parks for sites for so-called temporary houses, which might have lasted—as temporary houses often do—for a great many years. We had to debate that matter in this House, and that proposal was fortunately dropped.

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National parks are necessary because our towns are overcrowded and spreading. As we all know, there is an invasion of the countryside everywhere by other interests that are alien to it. It is necessary to establish these islands of quiet and beauty and refreshment for the spiritual and physical benefit of the whole population. But the very nature of these reservations makes them especially attractive sites for hotels and boarding houses. Being large open spaces, with hitherto only a small density, they are ideal places for the War Office to establish tank training corps and other similar undertakings which are entirely alien from the spirit and purpose of national parks. The very quality of the land which is suited for national parks makes it all the more attractive to other people. An advertisement that I once saw said:
" For sale, five-roomed bungalow on unspoilt hilltop."
In a country such as ours it is difficult to find places of sufficient area for national parks. Many noble Lords will have seen, as I have, in the course of our travels, some, of the national parks in Canada and the United States, or in East Africa. There the movement has been comparatively easy of accomplishment, because those areas were almost unpopulated: there was unspoilt, open, natural country which could easily, by an Act of Parliament, be reserved for ever in that state. Here it is not so; and our need is even greater than theirs. But the greater the need, the greater the difficulty and the greater the danger, because the very fact of the need renders it so hard to save these areas from subsequent invasion.
Here we may find a conflict between the national interest and a local interest, between what is really in the long run the superior interest and what may be immediately and on the spot a more powerful interest. We want these national and local interests to co-operate, and not to create bodies which will be merely two sides sitting opposite each other and always antagonistic. We hope they will come to ready agreement. But as the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, has said, there must be cases of conflict; it is almost inevitable; there certainly have been hitherto. We urge that in such cases the Ministry of Town and Country Planning cannot adequately represent the national interest.
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There must be a body whose attention is devoted specifically to these matters, who are constantly watching them, who have the specialised knowledge and who are able to enlist experts in many fields whose co-operation is desirable. That is the purpose of the recommendation of the Hob-house Committee Report, and it is not covered by the Town and Country Planning Act. And that is the danger of the present situation, because the only authorities under the Town and Country Planning Act are the Ministry, on the one hand, and the local county planning authorities or joint local authorities on the other. This point was discussed on the Bill; I remember raising it myself when the Town and Country Planning Bill was in Committee. On the Report stage this particular point was put forward, and we urged that it should be taken into consideration and should be dealt with in the Bill. We were given assurances by the Government that although they did not wish to deal with it in the Bill in advance of special legislation for National parks, it would be borne in mind. Presumably it is still borne in mind, but what the mind will decide, and what the will will do, we do not know. That is the purpose of this debate to-day.
The Minister of Town and Country Planning held out certain prospects when he was speaking at Birmingham last month, at a meeting organised by the Ramblers' Association. He was then referring to footpaths, access to mountains preservation and national parks, and he said:
" In the case of these particular matters…pressure is unnecessary…. We are absolutely with you in the objectives which you have before you…I believe…you are within sight of the Promised Land "
Within sight…But we know that Moses, at all events, never entered the promised land. The case may be like that of the well-meaning Irish landowner who said to one of his friends: "If ever you come within ten miles of my place I hope you will stay there." It is not enough to be within sight of the Promised Land; we wish to enter it. I trust, therefore, that your Lordships' House, which so often represents public opinion—and not the least enlightened part of public opinion—will declare its views to-day with unanimity on this point. I trust, too—though I am not sure that that trust will be fulfilled—that we may

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receive from the Government assurances that will relieve anxieties which are widespread and well-founded.
4.56 p.m.
LORD ROBOROUGH: My Lords, this is the first opportunity I have had of addressing your Lordships, and therefore I crave your indulgence. I have been asked by the Devon County Council to speak on the subject of Dartmoor, and also to express certain views that they have with regard to the proposals for the administration of national parks. It might interest your Lordships to know what has been done in the past and what the County Council are now doing to help to plan Dartmoor and to preserve the amenities of the neighbourhood, both for the local inhabitants and also for our large tourist traffic.
The County Council, although possessing no statutory planning powers, have for a considerable time taken an active interest in the development and planning of Dartmoor. Before the war an arrangement was made with the joint planning committees that the County Council should prepare a development plan for Dartmoor. In the early part of 1946, soon after the publication of the Dower Report, the County Council were instrumental in bringing about an independent committee, which is known as the Dartmoor Advisory Joint Committee, of which I am a member. This Committee consists of three members of the county planning committee, three members of the joint planning committees concerned, and a representative from the Duchy of Cornwall. Ever since the appointment of that Committee, all applications for development in the proposed Dartmoor area have been submitted to them for their approval. They immediately gave their close attention to matters concerning the establishment of national parks, and the question of the boundaries was their first consideration.
The boundaries proposed in the Dower Report, which in fact embraced only the actual moorland, were, we considered, insufficient. We thought that the beauty of the approaches to the Moor were of equal importance. We therefore considered and suggested that the boundaries should be greatly increased. The County Council also conducted long negotiations between the Service Departments and the
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Minister of Town and Country Planning on the subject of the Service Departments' land requirements on Dartmoor. Thus, quite lately this matter has been settled satisfactorily to all parties concerned. In addition, we have recently prepared a comprehensive survey of all the ancient monuments and historic buildings on Dartmoor, and have furnished copies of the survey to the Service Departments and also to the Minister of Works. At the present moment, we are concerned with the problems of forestry versus agriculture. I refer to the encroachments that are continually being made by the Forestry Commission on the grazing rights of the hill farmers.
We welcome the whole conception of national parks as conceived in the Hob-house Report. We have done everything that we can do to help towards its successful fulfilment. However, we are very concerned over this question of the administration of the national parks. Here, I am afraid we differ slightly from the noble Lords who have just spoken. We are strongly opposed to the idea that the local park committee should be a statutory planning authority. We consider that in order to plan well it is essential to plan comprehensively. If this fundamental principle is accepted, it appears obvious that there should be one planning authority and one planning officer, who would be responsible for all planning. As I have said before, the boundaries we proposed were greatly in excess of what had previously been envisaged, and these boundaries have been accepted in the Hobhouse Report. The County Council, as the local planning authority for the county, would be seriously handicapped if, when they were preparing their comprehensive development plan for Dartmoor, this vast area of 392 square miles were taken out of their hands. This area has many connections within it that are of vital importance to the surrounding neighbourhood. To mention only one instance, the water catchments in the area supply about 500,000 people. We consider it most undesirable that the roads should be planned by a separate authority. The technical staff of the County Council are constantly in touch with the county surveyor on all highway matters, and if there were a separate authority, I do not think the same contact would be maintained.

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With these considerations in view, the Devon County Council feel strongly, first, that provision should be made for the councils of the counties concerned to be able to appoint a member on the National Parks Commission who would be able to put forward their views and protect their interests. Secondly, they suggest that the local park committee should be a standing committee of the county council, with provision for representatives appointed by the National Parks Commission, possibly a representative from the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and, in our particular case at Dartmoor, a representative from the Duchy of Cornwall. We suggest that this committee should appoint two sub-committees, one to deal with all management matters delegated to them by the National Parks Commission and the other to act in an advisory capacity to the County Council on all planning matters. The Devon County Council possess an excellent planning stall They have highly qualified technical experts on all matters to do with agriculture, architecture and highways, and we have recently appointed a highly competent director of planning. We feel that no body are in a better position to act in the capacity of a local planning authority. We feel, also, that if an independent authority were set up it would be a pure waste of public money. We are fully alive to all the requirements that are needed, and we consider that we are in the best position to deal with all local troubles and opposition, and with the innumerable problems which call for local knowledge and the local approach.
5.9 p.m.
LORD METHUEN: My Lords, in the first place I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, who has just spoken, on his excellent maiden speech. I am sure that we are all grateful to him for having put forward a point of view which is different from those of the noble Lords who have spoken before. Whether we agree with the noble Lord or not, we are grateful to him for having stated a precise case in point. However, having listened with some care to what he has said, I fail to see that his suggestions are really inconsistent with the recommendations contained in the Hob-house Report. Surely if a national body is created, his local bodies would automatically come into line as park committees,
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advisory committees and so on. They are bound to do so I cannot see how it can be otherwise. I think that the noble Lord's fears are a little unjustified and, although I personally am in favour of all that he said, I think it is inconsistent to say that it could not be worked under the recommendations of the Hobhouse Committee.
The three Reports to which reference has been made in the Motion surely are not at variance with the Town and Country Planning Act of 1947. I agree with previous speakers that: the body to be established should be a responsible and not an advisory body. I should like to know what is the Minister's objection to going ahead with the scheme and bringing in a Bill on the lines of the Hobhouse Committee Report. Is it that the Service Departments have been tiresome? Cannot they make up their minds how much of the national parks they cannot do without? What is the real reason? I should like to ask the noble Lord who is to reply to this Motion if he can give us some idea whether the Services are in any way to blame for the delay. I would be glad to hear that that was not the case.
LORD HENDERSON LORD HENDERSON indicated dissent.
LORD METHUEN: If it is not the case, then there is no reason why a Bill should not be brought in, because I think noble Lords on all sides of the House agree with the terms of these three Reports, subject to the question of local administration being settled.
At any rate, could we not start by setting up in skeleton form the National Parks Commission, which could, in the first place, be occupied with preparing the boundaries of the various national parks, so that gradually, as time and facilities developed more in our favour, the whole structure could be established and we could go ahead with it? There is general agreement that something should be done, and should be done soon, so as to preserve this national heri-tage which, as has been pointed out, is being daily encroached upon. All three Reports, generally speaking, presuppose that the degree of education and appreciation, both of biology and of natural beauty, born in many and easily cultivated by those who live in the country, may be by-passed by townsmen; and ore Report, in particular, emphasises the need for educating the townsman and those

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who like their day in the country by means of a simple country code. May I say that the views of the Special Committee in their Report on Footpaths and Access to the Countryside, where they emphasise the opportunity there is for school teachers and others to bring home to youngsters how to treat the country, cannot be over-emphasised. I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I read that short paragraph. It states:
" Much of the ill-feeling which has existed in the past has been due to ignorance or thoughtless behaviour on the part of some townsmen. This we believe could be considerably reduced by persistent educational efforts. We accordingly recommend that a simple Country Code should be prepared and issued. Its object should be to evoke a better all-round standard of responsible behaviour in the countryside and to instil a greater appreciation of the ways and needs of rural life, and the inter-dependence of town and country. To this end religious bodies, school teachers, youth leaders and the open air organisations should be invited to co-operate in an educational campaign for which the widest publicity should be sought by means of leaflets and posters, and by co-operation with the press, the radio and the cinema. If our proposals are accepted, and pass into law, they will confer upon the public a precious gift of greater rights and privileges."
I hope the Minister of Town and Country Planning (if he is the Minister responsible) will see his way to introduce at an early date legislation on the lines proposed in these three Reports in regard not only to national parks but also to the smaller and usually artificial parks. Some of our now derelict canals might well be brought into a comprehensive scheme for the benefit of those who are to come after us. I have great pleasure in supporting the noble Lord's Motion.
5.15 p.m.
LORD ROBINSON: My Lords, I wish to add my tribute of appreciation to those who have done so much to bring forward the ideals and far-reaching proposals for making National Parks, beginning with the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, and coming, in later times, to the late Mr. John Dower and Sir Arthur Hobhouse in England and Wales, and Sir Douglas Ramsay in Scotland. More particularly do we miss at this time, when such questions are under examination, the imaginative powers of the late Mr. John Dower and the wise counsels of the late Sir Lawrence Chubb.
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It seems to me that the National Parks Committee's Report and the associated Reports have three main purposes in view, and I propose to devote my time to discussing the possibilities and the methods of attaining those purposes, rather than to talking about the central organisation which has occupied so much of your Lordships' time in the present discussion. The first of those three main purposes is to enable people to get more freely into the countryside and, in particular, into those wilder parts of the country which are to be designated as national parks. The second objective is to preserve the existing landscape in much of its present form of utilisation, and generally to improve the amenities of the park areas. The third objective is to conserve certain selected fauna and flora in their suitable places. I propose to offer some criticisms of the Reports, because I think it is by criticism that some step may best be taken towards getting a balanced view of the whole situation. I know it is so easy for others to lift such criticism out of its context and its intention, and therefore I wish to emphasise that my whole view of the subject is sympathetic. I would accordingly ask your Lordships' indulgence, if I may, to justify my claim to speak sympathetically.
It has been my good fortune to spend the greater part of my working life in the open air, part of it in this country, and to visit forests and national parks in many parts of the world. In the course of that work I have noted many differences between the proposition to establish national parks in this country and those in countries which I have visited—namely, America, Africa, Australia, and New Zealand. That is only to be expected when one considers the differences which obtain in the newer countries and in this old country. I could give you many details, but I do not propose to take up your time. Rather would I like straight away to say that, notwithstanding those differences which are really important and which, in my opinion, have made it so difficult to get a satisfactory definition of what a national park means in this country, I think it would be a very fine thing indeed if we could make it possible for young people in particular to get into the countryside freely and cheaply. I believe, further, that with education, such as one noble Lord who spoke earlier suggested, very little damage indeed need be

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done, either to agricultural spaces, to woodlands, or to moorlands. And I think, also, that the proposal to create nature reserves is strongly to be commended, not only because of its sentimental value but also because of its scientific and practical value.
These beliefs which I have just stated have been supported by the Forestry Commissioners, who alone have backed them by practical action during the time that these controversies have been continuing. The Commissioners, in fact, have made some six or seven national parks. I say "six or seven," not because I do not know which number it is but because one of them, the New Forest, although it is the prototype of these national forests, has never itself been called a national forest park. In these national forest parks we have made available to the public some 330,000 acres of land, a very considerable area in this small country. Not only have we thrown those acres into parks, but we have actively encouraged people, and especially movements like the Youth Hostels Association, to go there. We have given them facilities to enter and camp in and wander about the woods and over the moors, to fish in and to boat on the waters which are available.
In addition to that, a good deal of quiet conservation work has been done. May I say that so far as the conservation of fauna and flora is concerned, the quieter the work the better; so our work, though pretty extensive, has been quiet. The Commissioners deserve no special credit for this work. What they have done arose quite naturally out of a simple but important observation. That observation is this: in very extensive areas it is quite possible to combine in the same area three different functions, good soil utilisation (as expressed by timber and agriculture), amenity and public access. The Commissioners drew that observation from the New Forest. It was a theory to begin with, but I am glad to say that in a sense it has been completely confirmed by the experience of the war, because the Commissioners were able to take vast quantities of timber—some 450,000 tons—out of that forest without spoiling its amenities. A further advantage, of course, is that the total cost of these parks has been trifling. Indeed, I should think £10,000, all told, would cover both capital and maintenance to date.
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The criticisms which I wish to make are threefold. They are criticisms of the National Parks Report for England and Wales and the associated reports which go with it. First of all, in my view, the Reports show insufficient appreciation of the national need to make better use of the soil of this country. Secondly, I think the canons of landscape beauty laid down in the Reports are far too rigid and too artificial. Thirdly, I believe that the powers sought for the central controlling body, the Commission, are too autocratic. May I now try to substantiate these points? First of all, as to the area which it is proposed to bring under the parks and associated organisations, I would point out that the Hobhouse Reports cover for national parks a total area of 3,600,000 acres which are to be obtained in three instalments. There are a further 6,300,000 acres which are to be thrown into conservation areas. That is a total area of nearly 10,000,000 acres in England and Wales, or some 27 per cent. of the whole area, in which management is bound to be restrained in some fashion or other. I admit that restraint will be markedly greater in national park areas and less in conservation areas. Nevertheless, it is a serious matter to take between one-quarter and one-third of England and Wales and say: "We are going to use it for a purpose in which one or two specific objects are to override everything else." Those Reports come at a time when it is almost daily becoming clearer to us that we have to make the utmost use of our soil for food and timber production. I must admit that the Forestry Commissioners have an interest, in this. Indeed, they already have extensive plantations within those areas which are designated, or are to be designated, as national parks. They have still much more land to plant in those areas, and if the minimum plans required for the timber production of this country are to be put into effect they will need a great deal more.
What sort of land is it that it is proposed to use for these national parks? Here I think I can speak with some authority, because for the last thirty-five years I have spent a great deal of time examining types of this land. I must have walked literally thousands of miles in doing so, and it was not mere ambling; it was detailed examination of the soil, and of matters of geology, vegetation,

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utilisation and the capacity of the soil to produce cither timber or food. So far as I am able to ascertain, and I think my views are borne out by botanists, a great deal of this land was at one time covered with woodlands—at least the lower and middle slopes and, of course, all the lower ground. But, in the course of time—a very long time—in the face of man's activities and the grazing of his animals, shrinkage of woodlands has gone on, until to-day you would find it difficult indeed to find, shall we say on Dartmoor or in the Lake District, a small patch of woodland which bears a close resemblance to what indigenous woodland must have been. I say "must have been" because, naturally, there is no one here now who can say what a natural woodland was a couple of thousand years ago.
As that woodland has receded, the bulk of the land has been subjected to grazing, and selective grazing at that, mainly by sheep, with a few cattle. Since there has been no cultivation, no manuring except by the natural droppings of the beasts, there has been distinct and progressive loss of fertility of the soil, which I believe to be reflected in increasing ills which overtake animals grazing on that land. At the same time there has been, over the last couple of centuries at least, a progressive decline of the populations. In the Highlands, for example, you will see ample signs of this in abandoned buildings, or even hamlets, on the hillsides. But the urgent part about that decline is that it is still continuing to-day. The decline of the population in the upland parts of Wales is a very serious thing. I do not know that the loss of soil fertility is the main—certainly it is not the only—cause. Under modern conditions people will no longer live in houses which are condemned and ought to be replaced by decent sanitary houses. They will no longer live in remote places where there are no roads, and where they are far from the amenities which everybody now expects. The result is that this depopulation goes on. And it will go on. Unless something is done about it, these Welsh hamlets and farms will fall derelict like the houses in the Highlands of Scotland about which I have spoken. To put that right—and it is something which ought to be put right—is not the job of a National Parks Commission. It is a national undertaking, to which the nation
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ought to address its attention. I make this statement, though I know it will meet with a good deal of objection: the landscape in many parts of the national park areas is a degraded landscape. It is something which does the country no credit. Moreover, the degradation has not yet finished. It is going on all the time. I, for one, do not profess to know just where it will end. In some places, in part of the Lake District, for example, it has ended in erosion, so that nothing is now left except the bare skeletons of the hills and screes which are falling away.
I would like now, if I may, to say something about a plant which receives a good deal of admiration in these Reports, but which, quite frankly, does not deserve it. I refer to the bracken. A great deal of attention has been given in recent years by agriculturists and others to the spread of bracken—and spread it has, over formerly cultivated lands and over a great deal of former woodland. However it got there, whether by spreading or because it belonged there naturally, it is a useless plant. I see that Mr. Dower, in the footnote on Page 22 of his Report on national parks (Cmd. No. 6628) admits that there are immense areas of bracken within the proposed national park areas, and goes on to say that he does not think more than about 30 per cent. of it could be reclaimed for agriculture. Therefore (he says), we need not worry, since there will still by 70 per cent. bracken area left. I say, however, that we need worry, because that 70 per cent. has been woodland and in our necessitous conditions of to-day should be put back again to woodland. I can best liken the bracken plant to the trappings and paint which cover a courtesan. They cover a sterility where nature never intended that sterility should be.
To come to another point of criticism: the National Parks Committee are bent on preserving the landscape, and make that one of their main purposes. I should like to examine that proposition more closely. In the first instance, what are we preserving? A landscape which we have caught at a certain instant in time, a landscape which is like nothing that has gone before and certainly is like nothing that will come afterwards. The man who stands on Hadrian's Wall and looks northwards towards the Border is deluding himself to

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the top of his bent if he thinks he is viewing the scene which met the eyes of a Roman legionary. It looked nothing like that in Roman days, and it will look nothing like what it is to-day 1,500 or 2,000 years hence. We cannot preserve the scenery. We cannot stabilise nature. Whether we like it or not, nature goes on. The Report itself does recognise that, but what the Committee do not tell us, and what they do not know, is how to maintain nature as she is to-day in the national park areas.
Roughly, there are two ways of maintaining the scene. Both are by cultivation: one by suitable arable cultivation, which fixes the soil and enables its fertility to be maintained; the other is by sylviculture, the growing of trees on land which cannot be ploughed. Even so, the scene changes imperceptibly from day to day. I therefore find myself in difficulties in following the national park Reports in that respect. I ask myself whether there is an alternative to preserving the landscape as it is to-day. I think there is, but it is necessary to have a new conception of what constitutes beauty. The artificial beauty which makes the degraded landscape of to-day, and the school which says I hat we must keep it for ever, are doomed to defeat in the long run. Taste is the motivating factor in these things and, whether one likes it or not, the taste of today will not be the taste of to-morrow. I believe that functional beauty, if it can be obtained, is the most suitable for that type of land; the soil should be properly utilised for the needs of the community. In this respect I find the approach of the Scottish Committee much more satisfying than that of the English Committee. The Scottish Committee clearly state that though areas are to be set aside as national parks, nevertheless they must be used. Communities must be established and plantations must be made. The land must be lived in.
I also find the report of the ecologists who have dealt with this subject much more to the point, and much more in accordance with my own ideas of what must be done. With the House's permission, I would like to read what they said in a report published in the Journal of Ecology in May, 1944.
" The claims of forestry-in the proper management of existing woodland and the establishment of extensive new forest areas
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may perhaps be regarded as coming only second to those of agriculture in national importance. They can be met (with all reasonable regard to nature conservation, sport and public amenity) if only wide vision and careful broad-scale planning are adopted. This is all-important in the development or conservation of such land as still remains in a wild or semi-wild state."
They ask for wide vision. I would like to be associated with them in that remark, and would ask them to help us to enlarge our vision.
I could say a good deal about the formation of plantations in these national park areas, but I am trenching unduly, I fear, on your Lordships' time. What I would say is that I find a great change coming over people in their appreciation of the beauties of coniferous plantations. I have many opportunities of questioning people as I go about, and I find that the views expressed by the National Parks Committee are not at all representative of the people I meet. These massive plantations of conifers are going to develop into something very beautiful. Age alone will make a great change. There are other changes which will come about, all in the direction of irregularity—more hardwood species will be introduced and the age classes will be broken up, with the result that the prospect will be an ever-changing one. It seems to me that in this matter of plantations people are in far too much of a hurry. It is perfectly true that young things are seldom beautiful—not even babies, except in the eyes of their doting parents. Certainly I would not claim that a young coniferous plantation, or a young hardwood plantation, is beautiful. But nor would anyone claim that a young cathedral is beautiful. It begins as a hole in the ground; it is surrounded for sixty or seventy years by regimented scaffold poles, but at the end of a hundred years it emerges as something beautiful and wonderful. Cannot we be a little patient, too, with regard to our plantations? That is the way the beautiful woodlands of Britain, and of England in particular, were built up—not overnight, but by endless patience.
I have just one or two things to say with regard to the proposed administration of the parks. I think the Reports are too autocratic in their proposals regarding the parks. They seem to want to dragoon people rather than to lead them along. My experience in the administration of parks and similar large

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land areas, which is fairly considerable, is that it is much better to get people to go along with you than to push them ahead. An autocratic line is bound to result in difficulties everywhere—with local authorities, with county councils (of which we have already seen signs to-day) and with individuals. The Committee even suggest that the Forestry Commission should be "required" to do things. That strikes home. Apart from that, however, I think it only right to say that it introduces an entirely new constitutional point. How can one Government Commission "require" another to do something? It would be interesting to see what would happen if the War Office were empowered to require the Admiralty to dress their admirals in a certain coloured uniform, or to paint their ships a certain colour, all in the interest of the seascape!I think that the autocratic line has been rather overdone.
I trust I have not conveyed the impression that I am opposed to the principles underlying the provision of national parks and all that they can mean to the people of this country. I am not. My criticisms of the proposals of the Reports are designed to show the urgent need to arrest and reverse the evident decay which has set in on some of the areas proposed to be designated; to suggest a less rigid line as to what may or may not be done in them, and so to achieve a better working balance than is proposed between soil production, amenity and public enjoyment. Above all do I think that there must be most carefully ruled out anything which risks placing the dead hand on legitimate development.
5.45 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF TRURO: My Lords, the Council for the Preservation of Rural England have worked for more than twenty years to see a system of national parks set up in our island. Three years ago, in April, 1945, Mr. John Dower published his most valuable Report entitled National Parks in England and Wales, and last year that other most valuable Report, which has already been mentioned, was produced under the chairmanship of Sir Arthur Hobhouse. I am very glad to see that Mr. Dower is one of the signatories to that Report. Canada has twenty-six national parks. Sir Arthur Hobhouse's Committee, after careful inquiry
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and consideration, have chosen twelve areas for parks. Other attractive sites came under review, but the Committee exercised wise restraint and finally settled on these twelve. There are, indeed, many other areas possessing outstanding landscape beauty, or of great scientific interest; for example, Bodmin Moor and strips of the coast line in Cornwall. It is not practicable to have all these as parks, but as a great national asset they deserve special protection. The Report enumerates fifty-two of these areas as conservation areas.
The Report of the Hobhouse Committee has actually been in the hands of the Minister of Town and Country Planning since April 1, 1947, and there is a widespread desire to have some effective action taken in the lifetime of the present Parliament. If there is to be effective action there must be legislation in addition to the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947. Each of these twelve proposed national parks is not only of great concern to the locality in which it is situated, but also to the nation as a whole; and the strong recommendation of the Hobhouse Committee, which has already been stressed in this House this afternoon, is that there should be a National Parks Commission, consisting of a small number of expert members, on the analogy of the Forestry Commission. Surely, it would be a great advantage to have some central body of that kind. That body might very well—and no doubt would—be in close consultation with other Government Commissions, such as the Forestry Commission. I see no reason to suppose that that Commission will not pay attention to ecology, or will not attend to the degradation of land, or, indeed, will not heed the warnings which the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, has given us in such vigorous fashion. I am sure such a National Parks Commission would not unduly favour bracken, or conifers, for that matter. There is no doubt that a central body of authority would be able to take into consideration all the important points which were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Robinson.
As to the localities, each of the national parks would be administered by a composite committee, and on that local committee local interests would be strongly represented. I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, need

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have no apprehensions on that point. The Central Commission would be represented on the committee, but the exact proportion might well be reconsidered. It is, surely, of the utmost importance that both sides should be represented on the local committee. I think that is the principle that we should stand for in the legislation for which we ask.
A point that has not been mentioned this afternoon is that of finance. I understand from the Report that the finance of the scheme is to be provided from the centre, and no doubt that fact will be noted and welcomed by the local authorities. As to this matter of finance, I cannot help feeling that, with the present most urgent need for national economy, the expenditure contemplated by the Hobhouse Report must, temporarily at all events, be drastically reduced. Indeed, the items for the removal of disfigurement and the purchase of land might be cut out altogether. But such reductions do not in the least mean that a National Parks Commission could not, and should not, be set up immediately. The cost of that would be comparatively small. Until such a central National Parks Commission is set up, not merely as an advisory and ineffective body but as a national authority set up by Act of Parliament, the encroachment by Government Departments in the national park areas will, I am afraid, continue. These areas should have a higher standard of amenity planning than ordinary areas, but until there is an effective national authority all sorts of things will be allowed in those regions: opencast coal working, hydro-electric schemes with dams, pylons, reservoirs, military training and so on.
The Requisitioned Land and War Works Act has made it possible to defer until 1951 the settlement of disputes. Dartmoor has already been mentioned. It is one of the twelve national park areas, and a settlement has been reached. I was very glad to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, that it is on the whole regarded as satisfactory, and yet I doubt if we can feel quite satisfied by the augury it gives us for the establishment of a real national park in that area. The public are to be excluded from 29,000 acres of Dartmoor, and in the national park areas as a whole Service claims at present amount to some 160,000 acres. It is urgent that these national
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park areas, and the conservation areas as well, should receive adequate national protection without further delay.
As to those conservation areas—fifty-two in number, and of untold value to the nation—I will not trespass on the time of this House further than to say this. The rather different scheme of management proposed by the Hobhouse Report is yet another evidence of the great care with which that Commission has thought out the details with which it deals. The whole management of the conservation areas is to be lighter, and there is surely no reason why those areas should not be used almost as fully in the productive-side of agriculture as they would be if they were not conservation areas at all. The question of production, even in the park area themselves, is one which will no doubt be carefully considered by the National Parks Commission, if it is set up. That Commission will include experts such as ecologies and so on, and will be able to consult agriculturists and ecologists as is required. I think we may be confident that those points will not be forgotten by the National Parks Commission.
The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, mentions two other recent Reports. He himself referred in some detail to the Report on Footpaths and Access to the Countryside. That Report states as a fact that a very large number of rights of way are being lost through disuse. We may, therefore, expect the Government to introduce a Bill concerning footpaths and access. What some of us are afraid of is that that Bill may have some subsidiary provision attached to it, setting up an inadequate and merely advisory National Parks Commission. That would not do at all. What we want is a Bill embodying the main principle to which the Report refers—namely, that an effective, and not an enfeebled and merely advisory, National Commission be set up, to be leader and guide in the national planning of national parks, and that this National Parks Commission be given direct and adequate representation on each individual park committee.
The third Report to which the Motion refers, the Report of the Wild Life Conservation Committee, is in some respects the most interesting of the three. The seventy-three proposed national nature

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reserves occupy a total of less that 70,000 acres of land, which is less than two-thousandths of the land of England and Wales. Surely the claim for the protection of so small and so fascinating a surface of land, and for the formation of a biological service in connection with that land, is irresistible. If the main recommendations of the three Reports are carried out without damage or delay, we should all feel much happier as regards the security of the beauty remaining in our native land.
There is one further safeguard which is urgently needed and which is touched upon more than once in these Reports. The Report on Footpaths and Access to the Countryside sums it up in a phrase already quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Methuen. What is needed is a better all-round standard of responsible behaviour in the countryside. The Report suggests the preparation and publication of a simple country code with an educational campaign for which the widest publicity should be sought. By all means. As a matter of fact, a great deal of educational effort in this direction has been undertaken in the schools during recent years, and the results have been somewhat disappointing. Nevertheless, the continual drip of the water of instruction will wear away the stone of ignorance, and we must persevere. I desire very warmly to support the Motion.
5.58 p.m.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I should like to take this opportunity of paying my tribute to the very great merits of the Reports that we are considering this afternoon; that is to say, the Report of the National Parks Committee (England and Wales) and its two allied Reports. I would remind your Lordships, however, that there are yet two further Reports on this same subject. There is the Report on National Parks and the Conservation of Nature in Scotland, published in 1947, and the Report of the New Forest Committee, which was quite recently before your Lordships' House. In some respects, as your Lordships who have studied these three series of Reports will see, the recommendations by the eminent Chairmen and members are not in all respects similar in certain aspects of their Reports. Therefore, I would ask your Lordships, if you intend to press
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the Ministry of Town and Country Planning for more speed in introducing legislation, to remember that the recommendations of the Hobhouse Report are not in all respects confirmed by the Report affecting national parks in Scotland or that respecting the New Forest.
If I may, I should like to refer to the exact differences later. I think it is a pity that no better name has been found for these areas than national parks. National parks, as such, undoubtedly exist in the Dominions and in many foreign countries, but it will be a misnomer if we continue to think of the areas in this country as national parks. The national park in many countries abroad is largely an uninhabited tract, or a tract inhabited only by nomad tribes. Such a park cannot, of course, exist in this country. And there cannot be the same national control over these parks, owing to the simple fact, as all of your Lordships will realise, that the existing population and the existing user of the land are of primary importance in these areas. It is the agricultural production of these areas which is of such vital importance—and not only the existing production but the increase of production that these areas can yield. I need not refer to Sir George Stapleton's experiments in increasing grassland production in hill country and so on; nor to the production of timber, to which the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, who made such a thoughtful speech on this matter, referred. These are productive areas and they must remain productive areas. At the same time, I think all of your Lordships desire that these areas of such great beauty shall be made available to a greater extent to the population of the large industrial centres in this country. That, I am sure, is the background against which your Lordships would desire to examine this question. These two aspects are, to some extent, mutually destructive, because the introduction of large numbers of holidaymakers and visitors is not easy to fit into the existing agricultural and forestry background. But I think it can be done, and I am sure the opinion of your Lordships' House is that a proper attempt should be made to do it.
I would like to mention one point to which the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, referred, and that was the preservation of scenery."Preservation" is, I feel, a misnomer: you can protect scenery,

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but I think all of us will agree that you cannot preserve it permanently. A good deal of talk on this subject is misguided; it is directed towards what is called the preservation of woodlands. But trees have a limited lifetime, and it is no good an urban authority striving to preserve timber beyond its natural life. One knows of cases where preservation notices, and so on, are issued to preserve trees that are long past their maturity and are, in fact, a danger to any misguided person who should take shelter under them. These facts are not always fully realised by councils and others.
I would like now to mention one point on which I think a real difference of opinion exists among noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon. I think there is a mixing up of two quite different functions. There should, of course, be a National Parks Commission at the centre. But the two functions that I think have become mixed are those of planning and management. By management I mean the day-to-day work in a national park for increasing the facilities and amenities required by a holiday population. There are two sorts of holidaymakers: those passing rapidly through, usually on pedal bicycles; and those who come with their families actually to stay in the surrounding villages, and who walk, ride, climb mountains, go for boating expeditions and so on. The population which I find in one national park, Exmoor, pass through on their way to other areas of great beauty. For either type, those who pass through or those who reside, there arises the question of accommodation, the provision of camping facilities and so on, which would necessarily include the expenditure of public funds; and this should be in the hands of the local representatives of the Parks Commission. I think that is most desirable, especially if the National Parks Commission are to be endowed with funds from national sources. They will require local assistance and the knowledge of local people to carry out their work; but that is the sort of work they should do. That is the management side.
Now we come to the planning side. Who is to be responsible for the statutory duty of carrying out the provisions of the 1947 Planning Act? In this connection I think I cannot have understood the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, correctly,
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because my impression was that he said that the Minister, and therefore the Ministry, of Town Planning should not be the ultimate arbiter on the question of planning in national parks. Surely that would be an impossible position. The Minister responsible to the Crown must have the ultimate responsibility for the statutory planning, under the 1947 Act, of these areas. If that be so, then the general instructions and directions on planning questions must come from the National Parks Commission, through the Minister of Town and Country Planning, to whatever planning instrument may be set up. It is, I think, a submission of many counties who may have a national park included within their administrative area that the counties themselves should set up a special planning committee for the specific area of the park, with representatives on it of the National Parks Commission. The Scottish Report recommends that one-third of the members (which would appear to be a very reasonable number) should be appointed by the National Parks Commission, and that these special park planning committees should be set up by the statutory planning authorities for the administrative counties.
There are many advantages in such a system. It will ensure that the fringes of the park and the surrounding country are not spoiled. I think that this was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, in his very interesting speech on what had already been done in the County of Devon, years before the National Parks Committee reported. The Devon County Council are well ahead and have taken active steps, so far as they are able, to see that the area of Dartmoor which lies within the county shall not be spoiled. I speak for my own county when I say that we think that such a system, which falls easily and logically into the planning system under the Act of 1947, is preferable to substituting a National Parks Commission which will be the statutory planning authority. This is no small problem when your Lordships realise that one-tenth of the land surface of England and Wales is included in these proposed national parks. I have not the figures for Scotland, but from the Scottish Report it is clear that a large proportion of Scotland will also fall within the area of national parks. Paragraph 25 of the

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Report of the Scottish National Parks Committee says:
" We have already expressed the view, however, that the planning of National Parks should be fitted with the least possible disturbance into the pattern of town and country planning, and we also recognise that local as well as national interests should be taken into account so far as this may be consistent with the ' national ' status of the Park."
Then they go on with their recommendation that additional members to the extent of one-third of the full Committee should be nominated by the National Parks Commission.
I think I have said sufficient to show that on this particular issue opinions are divided, although I realise that there are other noble Lords who are going to speak. The Hobhouse Report offers one solution, the Scottish Report offers another, and the New Forest Report offers a third, similar to the Scottish Report, because the Baker Report (that is to say, the New Forest Report, on which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, spoke with such knowledge the other day) recommends that the planning authority shall be the enlarged Rural District Council of the New Forest. I think that that idea was conceived before the Act of 1947. Under the new Act, such an area would be the concern of a special committee of the county council. With the rural district council was included the borough council which adjoins it.
I have only a few other remarks to make. I should like to say that the National Parks Commision and their co-opted members would be the appropriate body for management purposes, and that the county councils, through a special committee, should be the planning authorities, because then there would be one authority planning not only the parks but the surrounds of the parks, the communications to the parks, and all the other provisions that are required by the planning Acts. That is an economic method. All counties to-day employ highly paid and highly competent planning staffs. By duplicating the work, there will perhaps be two sets of competing officials, and your Lordships know that such a system is rarely successful. The very limits of the parks make the method I have suggested the more desirable one. It may be said that where two or even three counties meet great difficulties will be encountered. I do not think that those difficulties will
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necessarily arise. The planning authorities which were set up under the new Act to start on April 1, 1948, have had their birth postponed to July 1 of this year. I do not think that the noble Lord who moved this Motion, or any noble Lord, would condemn those new planning authorities as inefficient or lacking in energy before they are born. I would ask the noble Lord to wait until July 1 and reserve his criticisms till they have had an opportunity of functioning.
Finally, the process we would like to see is this. We would like to see the National Parks Commission communicating with the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, who would make out a code of planning specifically for national parks, issuing such a code under some form of regulation, at the making of which they are so adept. Then the statutory planning authorities would appoint their special parks planning committee, in conjunction with the members of the National Parks Commission. We feel that such a system will work, and work well. I must apologise to your Lordships for detaining you so long.
6.19 p.m.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: My Lords, I do not propose to detain your Lordships at any length, because many of the arguments that I was proposing to use have already been used with far greater force and effect by previous speakers. However, there are one or two points of importance which have not yet been sufficiently emphasised in this debate. When the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, introduced his Motion, he drew attention to the fact that the original home of national parks was the United States of America. I think that that is so. In fact, it may be said that the idea is an "invisible import" from the United States of America which so far has not cost us any dollars!
However, I think we should consider the material differences that exist between that country and our own, and, in particular, the question of population and suitable areas. I believe there are something like 44 people to the square mile in the United Stales of America, while there are something over 700 people to the square mile in England and Wales. That fact needs to be borne in mind all the time that we are considering national parks. It has a considerable bearing from

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the point of view of the utilisation that will be made of those national parks and the density of population who will invade the areas concerned. After all, the greater the number of people who go on a particular piece of land, the more damage they will do, and the more interference there will be with the ordinary life of those who live in those areas—and there are quite a lot of people who reside and earn their living in the areas concerned.
Keeping that at the back of one's mind, I would point out to your Lordships that the purposes of national parks have been defined in the Hobhouse Report by quoting from the Dower Report. I think it is as well, if your Lordships will bear with me, that I should read that, because the emphasis in the points made in the Dower Report is very relevant. This is what the Dower Report says:
" A national park should be an extensive area of beautiful and relatively wild country in which, for the nation's benefit and by appropriate national decision and action, (a) the characteristic landscape beauty is strictly preserved, (b) access and facilities for public open-air enjoyment are amply provided, (c) wild life and buildings and places of architectural and historical interest are suitably protected, while (d) established farming use is effectively maintained."
Your Lordships will note that the maintenance of established farming use is placed last. You will notice, of course, that there is no reference to progress. I think I ought to draw attention at the same time to the fact that on page 15 of the Dower Report there is a paragraph headed "The two dominant purposes," and these are the first two that I have read to your Lordships.
Therefore it is quite clear to me that in the minds of both Mr. John Dower and of the members of the Hobhouse Committee the purpose of a national park is primarily for the convenience of the very numerous urban population of this country; they relegate into the background the proper utilisation of the land concerned. It is quite true that in those rather charming maps at the end of the Hobhouse Report the areas which are to be national parks are delineated in a green line, with large "splodges" of yellow on them, which indicate that the land so coloured is uncultivated. But that does not mean that that land is either uncultivatable or, for that matter, even if it is uncultivatable, is unproductive. It means merely that at the time when the
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map was made (which was some years ago) it was not being cultivated. My noble friend Lord Hylton has already drawn attention to the fact that in the future we may well be able to make better use of that land for production purposes than is being made now. My noble friend Lord Robinson drew attention to the same fact in regard to timber, that we can improve the use of much of this land for timber production.
It is just this point that one wishes to bear in mind—that is, are we to carry through with the policy, which I understand has agreement on all sides of the House, that the very best productive use must be made of the limited land that is at our disposal in this country; or are we once more to give way to the urban-minded people who desire to tramp all over the country and—unwittingly, usually—do their best to make it difficult for those who live in the country to carry out their duty in production? If we are to have a national park organisation set up, I think it must be made absolutely clear that no interference will be tolerated (especially in these days, with the present difficulties in the areas concerned) to improve production in the future.
I know that the Hobhouse Report provides that land which can be brought into production, and which would be part of the national park, and to which the public would have access, could be withdrawn, and not made available. It is quite easy to write that kind of thing, but once the public have had the right to walk over a piece of moorland it is extremely difficult to keep them off it when you subsequently wish to cultivate or re-seed it, or to carry more stock on it. They will break down your fences, there will be objections, and you will not have the fullest use of that land. One has only to look at the experiences of nearly every county war agriculture committee in bringing back into cultivation thousands of acres of common land which had gone absolutely derelict. I saw a common in Gloucestershire and I was talking to the wife of the local master of hounds. At that time they were planting potatoes on that common, and she said, "Thank goodness that horrible place has gone. I have spent many half days sitting on my horse outside this, waiting for my husband to get his fox

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away." That common was debushed at enormous expense and is now valuable land, and it produced a very good crop of potatoes. Therefore if we are to have a national park organisation, there must be those safeguards to enable the land to be put to proper productive use, and to enable the farmer or landlord to fulfil the obligations which were imposed upon him by Parliament in the Agriculture Act only last summer.
Quite apart from that, is it expedient at this moment to set up a national parks organisation? When you set it up there is bound to be some considerable disturbance in the areas concerned. There will be the physical disturbance of uneducated people trampling down fences, destroying crops and the like. More than one noble Lord has deprecated the fact that the public are not adequately educated in how to behave in the country, and it is an expensive business to teach people by their own mistakes. There will be mistakes which will react unfavourably on the farmer. There will also be the ordinary teething troubles of a new organisation, which must take some time to get into gear, which will react unfavourably on the activities of farmers and landowners and the like in the area concerned. There is also the question of expense. It is quite a considerable expense—an estimated £9, 000,000 of capital expenditure and a further estimated £750,000 per annum. My guess is that £750,000 per annum is considerably less than the amount that would be spent, and that is yet a third point against taking any action just at the moment. It is a fairly considerable organisation that is envisaged. Amongst other things, it includes twelve additional planning authorities. They do not displace a single planning authority set up under the Town and Country Planning Act; they will be additional. They will require expert office and technical staff, and they will want just that kind of expert man-power which is in desperately short supply to-day. So that cither they will be competing with others for the available people, or they will be using people who are not really suitable for the job. For those three reasons I think that it is genuinely inexpedient to consider setting up a National Parks Commission and a signating any land as a national park at
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this moment, whatever may be done in the future.
I have no fear that the position will deteriorate to the extent that the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, seems to think. He says—and this is something one has often heard—that we must take action now. It frequently happens that an enthusiast wants what he is advocating to be done immediately and without hesitation. Arguments are put forward—and a good many have been adduced this afternoon—as to why it should be done now, and a very usual one is that the matter is urgent because the position will deteriorate rapidly. But we have passed into law the Town and Country Planning Act, and unless that Act is to fail in its purpose altogether, the position should not deteriorate. I do not say that necessarily it will improve, but it certainly should not deteriorate if that particular Act of Parliament means anything at all.
Moreover, we have already on the Statute Book the Access to Mountains Act. I knew quite a, lot about that Act, because I steered it through your Lordships' House and was largely instrumental in expanding its provisions from one-and-a-half pages to the thirteen pages there are now on the Statute Book. It has not been effective, as Lord Merthyr has said, but not, I think, for the reason which he gave. It received the Royal Assent only in the middle of July, 1939, and, if the noble Lord remembers, we have had a war since then. That war started soon after the passing of the Act and it was somewhat of a deterrent to activity under such a measure. Even though the war is now over, life has not been exactly peaceful for public authorities, and they have not felt inclined to indulge in luxuries such as dealing with the provisions of the Access to Mountains Act. But it is there on the Statute Book, and there seems to me to be no reason why use should not be made of it. I know that the Hobhouse Report quarrels with it in some respects. The Report rather suggests, for example, that the procedure may be too cumbersome. That may or may not be so, but I did not notice in the Hobhouse Report suggestions for procedure less cumbersome. If that Act were made use of, a measure of access would be obtained for the public which would be of considerable benefit to them.
There is also available, as is suggested in the Report, extended access to foot-

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paths. A lead has been given in this matter by one or two county authorities who have been active in defining and signposting the footpaths in their areas, and I suggest that that lead might well be followed in other parts of the country. Generally speaking, I think it could be done comparatively cheaply. I believe I am right in saying that the authorities in Essex have carried it out through one surveyor and two clerks in a period of about five years. I think that the county which is, as it were, a neighbour of my own area, is also doing something in this way. When I cross the county boundary which is also my boundary, I see a whole series of signs marking footpaths. If your Lordships look at a six-inch sheet of Ordnance Survey, you will sec footpaths marked all over the place. When all those footpaths have been agreed, defined and signposted, not only will it give to the public the feeling that they have a right to be on those paths, but it will give to the landowner and the farmer, when they find a trespasser on their land, a place where they can tell him to go—I mean somewhere other than the place which some noble Lords may be thinking is in my mind. I mean a place to which the intruder can properly be directed, and where he will learn that he can do no harm.
In that way the public will be given access to the countryside, in many cases at their own front doors, and it will be access to areas far more extensive than twelve national parks, even if you add the conservation areas to them. Those two suggestions, making use of the Access to Mountains Act, and getting foothpaths marked, agreed, defined and signposted, will, I am sure, prove of value if acted upon. They will prove a valuable first step and if, subsequently, we find it necessary to have enactments in order to set up a national parks organisation, then we must have them. I am convinced in my own mind, however, that, at this time, it would be extremely inexpedient to do so.
6.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I have brought with me some statistics relating to what has been done in regard to the South Downs, but in view of the time I do not now wish to refer to them except to say that I think they might have convinced the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel,
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that not all local authorities are inspired by sordid financial considerations, particulary as we spent over £70,000 in compensation for preservation. They might also, perhaps, have convinced the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, that although it may be true in Wales, it does not always follow that local and national interests are in conflict.
There is one point in connection with the South Downs to which I should refer, and it is a point which is not mentioned in any of these Reports. One of our major troubles has been devastation caused by tank and artillery training during the war. That is now being put right, laboriously but very efficiently, by the county agricultural executive committee, and I feel that it is a task which should not be impeded in any way whatever. Apart from that one question of the restoration of agriculture, I would say that the planning of the Downs, with, a view to their preservation and providing facilities for hikers and ramblers, seems to me to be one of the simplest operations that now confront us. That is because most of the work has already been done. For the same reason, so far as Sussex is concerned at any rate, I see no point whatever in taking control, or even half taking control, out of the hands of those who are, after all, the elected representatives of the people and putting it into the hands of another committee representing I do not quite know who, but composed, nevertheless, so far as the local management committee is concerned, of people who, apparently, are to be drawn very much from the same locality. Of course, they would be equipped with a different set of officials, and that would be very inconvenient, as my noble friend Lord Hylton has said.
Let us consider what the normal town planning procedure is under the 1947 Act, even supposing the local planning authorities do not do their job properly. The county council has to make a development plan. This has to be approved by the Minister, after most rigorous examination and a public local inquiry. Then it has to be administered, partly by the county council and partly by the district council under a somewhat complicated system of delegated powers. At any time, before, during or after the preparation of that plan, the Minister can use extremely wide powers of guiding and instructing the local

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planning authority and, if necessary, can take the area out of their control altogether. That is the system under which all forms of development will be controlled from July I, including all building, all industry and all mineral workings. I simply cannot see the sense of passing a revolutionary Act of that sort and giving those vast powers to the Minister, and then, before it has been tried out, saying: "It will not work so far as one particular class of people are concerned "—that is, ramblers and hikers—and asking that fresh legislation shall be introduced and new controlling bodies set up.
My noble friend Lord Merthyr said that the Hobhouse Committee reported with knowledge of what was in the 1947 Act, but I submit that no serious attempt has been made in any of the Hobhouse Reports to examine how far the recommendations can be met by that Act. I suggest that, if examination were made, very little fresh legislation would be found to be necessary in order to provide the public with open-air enjoyment of a kind which I understand the Committee advocated. Of course, there is a school of thought which believes in popularising our open spaces in quite a different way—by chains of entertainment centres, such as motor track racing, tea-houses, hotels and so forth. If that were the aim, I would agree that local planning authorities were not suitable people to determine the question. Certainly in my area they entirely disapprove and so, I understand, do the Hobhouse Committee. I cannot see why local planning authorities should not plan for ramblers, hikers and riders, just as much, as for any other class of land user.
Of course, they will need advice on this matter, as they do on many other matters which come before them. Planning covers such a wide range of subjects that nobody concerned is likely to suffer from over confidence in their all-round knowledge. In the last few weeks I myself have had to deal with the artistic shape of chalk pits, the siting of an aerodrome for flying taxis and a proposition for the establishment of a mink breeding farm. We have had quite an extensive correspondence with the Ministry of Agriculture on the subject of mink kittens. I cite these only as a example of the range of matters with which we have to deal. We certainly need advice about the habits of
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hikers and ramblers. And we shall need support in clearing the Downs from the traces of military occupation. We can be perfectly certain that all sorts of claims will be made on this and other national parks by the military, by statutory undertakings, and by housing authorities, as the noble Prelate has mentioned. Is it not exactly to deal with claims of this sort, which will no doubt be made on the highest national arguments, and to appraise them and try to decide between them, with the assistance of the Cabinet, that the Ministry of Town and Country Planning have been set up? Is it really claimed that a National Parks Commission should have greater authority than a Government Department?
I would like to preserve land for building, and give the rambler and hiker a fair deal within it. I would even advocate doing something that I do not think anybody has yet suggested; that is, asking the Minister to introduce some provision in the regulations to give third parties better protection before the first development is approved than they now have. It has always seemed to me that the safeguards given to third parties at the time planning is approved are by-passed by interim consents given beforehand. I do not wish to set up an entirely new form of planning authority, expressly designed to advance one class of land user. Such a course would not only lead to quite unnecessary complication and expense but would be wrong in principle, and would set an undesirable precedent for the future. For these reasons I can support the noble Lord's Motion to only a limited degree.
6.45 p.m.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, the reason I venture to intervene in this debate is that I happen to live in the centre of the Lake District, which your Lordships are well aware is down, according to the suggestions of the Hobhouse Report, as one of the earliest districts to be made a national park. I welcome the conception of national parks, and I welcome this debate. But I think it is clear from speeches which have been made that there is a good deal of misconception about what the implications of national parks in this country are likely to be. Before one can reasonably discuss national parks, one must be clear in one's own mind what is the definition of

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national park. I was going to read the definition in this Report, but as the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, has done it so recently I will refrain from doing so. Like him, however, I would draw particular attention to the last paragraph—
" (d) established farming use is effectively maintained."
While I would substantially agree with the rest of the definition, I do not feel that that last paragraph goes far enough. It all depends on how one interprets the word "maintain," but in order to make it quite clear, I would like to see something like this:
" that established farming use is effectively maintained and given every opportunity of logical and progressive development in step with the agricultural industry throughout the rest of the country."
Unless one is prepared to accept such additional words in the definition, I am afraid we shall be approaching the whole concept from an entirely wrong standpoint. I would like to say a little more about that later. Dealing with the earlier part of the definition, what it comes down to, in simple language, is something to ensure reasonable access to the countryside and to prevent wanton disfigurement by would-be developers for their own purposes, whether they be a Government Department or private individuals.
Turning to the question of access, I can speak only of the Lake District. Visitors have little to be concerned over as regards access to the wilder mountainous parts of the country. I believe that the relation existing now between visitors, on the one hand, and agriculturists, on the other, is a happy one; it is capable of improvement only if the visitors gain a better knowledge (as I have no doubt they desire to do) of what one may call the law of the countryside and the problems of the farmer. This further education, which has been referred to by so many noble Lords, Is of vital importance. It is the only way in which one can minimise the dangers which must inevitably exist of antagonism between the local inhabitants and visitors. In this connection, I find on page 20 of the National Parks Report a reference to the possibility of a warden service. I must say that when I first saw this I was a bit sceptical as to the chances of it doing much good. I am now informed that it has been tried in one district on a voluntary basis and is of value. I am prepared to accept that, so far as it goes; but to have it as a definite
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part of the organisation will not do much good unless it is on such a scale as would be beyond any reasonable cost one ought to incur these days. Even then, I am not sure that in some cases it might not be detrimental to the farmers' interests. So much for access.
I want to say something about the question of planning. It seems to me that the claim for centralised planning, so noticeable in certain activities these days, has smitten the members of this Committee rather badly. I have no doubt that there is more than one reason for this, but I believe that one of the main reasons is a suspicion that the local authorities cannot be trusted to do the right thing in regard to the planning of these national parks. If that is the reason why it is thought necessary to impose a large centralised organisation, then I think we are starting off on the wrong foot altogether. This sort of approach is calculated to cause local ill-feeling, and is quite unfair. I would like to ask those who have advanced this method what they can point to in order to substantiate what they say. It may well be that in districts to become national parks, where more than one county authority are involved, those county authorities may not in the past have co-operated as much as some would have liked. It may even be that there are cases where the local authorities have permitted development which to-day must be regretted. But can one really blame the local authorities for that? After all, until now there has never been a clear lead given by any Government as to the intentions with regard to national parks, and certainly no tangible assistance to, allow expenditure on aesthetic considerations, which may be desirable, to supersede utilitarian needs. I think it is entirely unfair to approach the matter in this way and, one might say, to attack the local authorities by making legislation which is going to continue, presumably, for all time.
If our national parks are really to preserve for the nation the atmosphere and way of life and beauty of the countryside, then I maintain that they can be run only by those who belong to that countryside, who live in it and who understand its problems. I am quite sure that if the Government will lay down clearly their intention that there shall be national parks, the local authorities may be relied

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upon entirely to run them to the best advantage, with the aid of such others as they may co-opt to help them and with such assistance as they can obtain.
It is on this point that I particularly disagree with the Hobhouse Report. I regret to have to say that, because in so many other ways it has been such a thorough piece of work and is so good. Comparison has already been made this afternoon between national parks as they would be in this country and those in other countries where one can take large areas of uninhabited and really virgin land. But our national park districts, whilst containing much that is wild and beautiful, are also the homes of thousands of men and women who gain their livelihood from them, and have done so for centuries past. I would go further and say—as, in fact, is mentioned somewhere in the Report—that not a little of the rural character in which we delight so much to-day is man-made, and is the result of interaction of environment, on the one hand, and local character, on the other.
There is another point that I would mention. Many of these districts have their own particular type of farming. In the Lake District, the district with which I am concerned, where hill-farming is supreme (a type of farming which recent legislation has shown to be of vital importance to the country), it is essential that the interests of the visitors must be subservient to the agricultural interests. To my mind, if this is not to be the approach to the problem we are discussing to-day, then I believe these parks will become like so many old mansions now being turned into museums. To use the words in this Report, they will become "sterilised as museum specimens" and, I would add in my own words, "liable to decay." May I take one example of the sort of thing I have in mind—the question of electricity supply? A good deal is said in the Report (paragraph 143 and onwards) about electricity distribution. I have met many people who deprecate the erection of pylons in the Lake District. They go so far as to say that if the cable cannot be buried it is better not to have any electricity there at all. It is curious that most of the people who put forward that point of view are either those who do not
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live in the district or, at any rate, are not affected. The Report certainly does not say that. It admits the importance of electricity supply in all national parks, as in other rural areas. But it does mention earlier that there may be the need for the laying of wires underground.
What I fear is that if the planning and management of these national parks is to be put into the hands of large centralised, bureaucratic organisations, if questions like these arise, and after a considerable amount of discussion it is found impractical to bury a cable, however desirable it may be, then, rather than put up pylons and incur the outcry of thousands of people from outside the district that they are spoiling the beauty of the landscape, they will defer indefinitely any action, and the farmers and agricultural community as a whole will get no electricity. They will be the losers every time. I have just taken the one question of electricity supply, but there are others. To my mind if the local inhabitants are to be deprived of what to-day are the normal amenities of life, not only will it become harder and harder to find successors to the farmers of to-day as they grow older and have to give up their work, but it will be harder—as, indeed, is the case to-day—to find the young men and women to help them on their farms.
The noble Lord, Lord Robinson, referred to the drift from these districts. That drift will continue at an accelerated rate, and the life of the countryside as we know it, and as we want it, will die out. I hope I shall not be misunderstood. I would certainly advocate the most careful control of unsightly development in these areas, but, for the reasons which I have tried to give, I distrust putting it into the hands of large, centralised organisations. I believe that it can be effectively handled only by those who live on the spot and understand the problems. It may well be that in the past local authorities have not been guiltless in these matters, but I believe that with suitable support they will undertake them to the best advantage. Reference has been made to a statement by the Minister, which I understand to be that he would prefer to invoke the powers already in existence under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, rather than embark upon some massive new legislation. I hope he will stick to that point of view,

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because I foresee that any further scheme, legislation and so forth, is bound, however carefully framed, to duplicate with existing authorities; it is bound to cause clashes of one kind or another and, by the ill-feeling engendered, will largely defeat its own end.
My suggestion, therefore, would be to use the planning organisation as laid down in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, and that where, as in the case of the Lake District, there is more than one county authority, there should be a joint planning board as set out in Clause 4 of that Act. I believe that further quite simple legislation would provide what is required. The sort of simple legislation that I have in mind is that the Minister should have power to nominate, not 50 per cent., but one or two nominees on to these planning boards, in view of the fact that there will probably be some financial grants from central sources. I think it should be obligatory upon the joint planning boards, and not optional, for them to be able to co-opt (where such are not already there) men who have firsthand knowledge of agriculture and forestry in the particular area. I would like to make it a little more certain that other Government Departments and statutory authorities cannot by-pass the planning committees as they are. I believe that such legislation could be quite simple and would be adequate.
Turning, therefore, to the central planning authority, I cannot see why—if my previous suggestions were accepted—more than a very small central authority, which I should liken to the Fine Arts Commission or something of that nature, is required. If I were asked what they would do, I would suggest that their first job would be to produce a code for national parks. It might be based on the Hobhouse Report. I would perhaps go so far as to suggest that if that code were drawn up on sufficiently broad lines it might even be given a measure of statutory authority. I feel that we want to go very carefully into this whole matter; there are so many difficulties. I am as keen as anyone that those who live in the towns shall be able to gain fresh air. The whole object of a national park is to provide somewhere where those who live in the towns, when they get their holidays, can come and enjoy the fresh air, get exercise and gain something of the peace and contentment of
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the countryside. But one other thing is also vital. When they come to these districts they must be welcome there. That is, to my mind, an overriding necessity. If, in an attempt to achieve all these attractive things, we virtually deny to the agricultural community the means of incentive and the prospect of modern amenities of life and of amenities as they may be to-morrow, then we shall virtually restrict the progressive prosperity of the countryside. We shall then succeed only in increasing bitterness and antagonism between on the one hand the agricultural community, and on the other hand the visitors, and we shall fail miserably in what we set out to do.
7.4 p.m.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, this has been a very interesting and helpful discussion, and we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, for initiating it. The noble Lord takes a keen and active personal interest in the matters which have been under discussion, and I think the debate has shown that on the broad aims of the Report there is general sympathy and support from noble Lords in all parts of the House. It will indeed have the valuable result of directing further the public interest in the three Reports to which reference has been made. The discussion has also made clear once again how keen is the interest of your Lordships' House in the preservation of our countryside and in providing increased facilities of access to areas of natural beauty and historic interest. We know that that interest is real and active throughout the nation. Indeed, one of the pleasing characteristics of our times is the increasing urge amongst the masses of the people to seek enjoyment and open air recreation amid the varied scenic beauty of our coastal, rural and moorland areas. There is, I think it will be agreed, a growing sense of appreciation, not only of our historical treasures and ancient monuments, but also of the natural beauties of our countryside and the wild life that it contains.
The Government, Parliament and the people are, therefore, greatly indebted-to the Committees who prepared these three Reports. They are important documents and they merit careful and sympathetic consideration, not only because of the authority of their authors but also because

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of the wide range of constructive recommendations which they contain. As noble Lords are well aware, the Government and my right honourable friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning have given a cordial welcome to these Reports, and I can assure your Lordships that they are in full sympathy with their general aims of national parks, freer access to the countryside and the conservation of wild life. But I must say frankly that there is considerable difficulty about one important proposal, and that is the constitutional arrangements contemplated by the National Parks Report. The setting up of a National Parks Commission with statutory powers was the point most stressed by the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, and other noble Lords who have spoken in support of his Motion. As has been made clear in the discussion, all the matters covered by the Report are part and parcel of planning, and they cannot be considered in isolation from their effect on the general planning system of the country. This planning system, as we are all aware, is in a state of evolution.
The Town and Country Planning Act, which we all remember being passed through your Lordships' House last summer, set up new planning authorities throughout the country, and gave extended planning powers to them. That new system is due to come into operation on July 1, and should have the effect of securing a much higher standard of planning—especially in rural areas—than was previously possible. The adoption of the Hobhouse proposals for a National Parks Commission and local parks committees on which the county councils would, in effect, have only a minority representation—I think the noble Lord called it "tipping the scale" in favour of national interest—would obviously involve a substantial departure from this new system of planning control. The special régime contemplated would have planning functions extending over 10 per cent. of the total area of England and Wales. This would involve, as has been pointed out in the debate, a severe curtailment of the scope and responsibilities of many planning authorities.
It would mean in some county areas that as much as 31 per cent., 46 per cent., 50 per cent., and even 77 per cent. of their territory would be taken out of their jurisdiction as planning authorities. I
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suggest that, whatever the Government's disposition towards the recommendations may be, it is obvious that decisions cannot be lightly or hastily taken and that the most careful study of all the problems involved is necessary before legislation can be decided upon. I submit that the varied and at times conflicting views which have been expressed in the course of the debate to-day confirm the need for careful study. It has not been overlooked that most of the planning functions which it is suggested should be given to the proposed National Parks Commission and its local parks committees are already being discharged—whether adequately or not—by existing authorities.
The noble Lord, Lord Robinson, who speaks with recognised authority and knowledge on the problem of forestry planning, has pointed to some of the possible adverse effects that the proposed statutory National Parks Commission and the local machinery might have on the work of the Forestry Commission. We have listened also to doubts, disagreements or reservations which have been expressed by several noble Lords whose interest in planning is well known in your Lordships' House, and who were very concerned about the impact the National Parks Commission, its local committees and the proposed statutory planning functions contemplated by the Report would have on the work and responsibilities of the existing planning authorities. The noble Lord, Lord Roborough, in, if I may say so, an admirable and well-informed maiden speech, indicated the opposition of the county council for his area, who are responsible for the Dartmoor National Park, to the setting up of a local parks committee; and he outlined the views of the Devon County Council regarding the exercise of planning powers by the local planning authority.
All these are matters which cannot be ignored. They are factors which the Minister must take into account in making up his mind. He has to consider the disadvantages as well as the advantages of the proposed scheme. I mention these matters, not in order to prejudge the issue, because, as I have stated, the Minister has yet to reach a decision, but to show that the questions to be decided before a firm decision can be reached as to the precise measures which are desirable to give reality to the general concept

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of national parks are, in some respects, difficult in principle as well as complex in detail. In fact, detailed work has to be done before even the outlines of legislation begin to crystallise.
It is therefore not possible at present to forecast either the date or the extent of future legislation on these matters. I can only repeat that the Government are reviewing all aspects of the matter and, indeed, the Minister of Town and Country Planning has on two recent public occasions—the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, referred to one of them—expressed the hope that it may be possible to introduce legislation during the lifetime of the present Parliament dealing with matters covered by the Hobhouse Reports. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Minister will be greatly interested in the views which have been expressed in the debate and that he will give them full weight. I will certainly make it my business to bring the official report of our discussion to his personal attention. That is as far as I can go this afternoon. I regret I cannot be more definite at this stage. I fully realise that my reply will be disappointing to the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, but I hope that he will nevertheless be prepared to withdraw his Motion.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, the noble Lord has correctly anticipated my disappointment with his reply. At the same time I should like to express my thanks to him personally for the trouble he has taken in this matter and to say that I hope that the debate has not been altogether unfruitful. There is no time for me to traverse the arguments which
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have been put forward, and I wish only to say that I think some of them were slightly exaggerated. I do not think there is any justification for the fear that the National Parks Commission would be so autocratic as the noble Lord, Lord Robinson, seemed to feel.
On the subject of forestry, I should like to end the debate by saying this. I myself—and if I may, I would speak also as President of the Royal Forestry Society of England and Wales—have no fear at all of any serious conflict between forestry interests and national parks. On the contrary, I am the first to admire the work of the Forestry Commission in setting up national forest parks. I think it is a good piece of work and I am not one of those who desire that any land, whether in or out of a national park, should remain in perpetuity in the state in which we find it. Nothing gives me more pleasure in going round the country than to see land being used, even if it is in a changing way, for a really productive purpose. And nothing annoys and irritates me more than, to see land being wasted, even if it happens to be by the presence of beautiful bracken. May I make one more confession? I think that a plantation of spruce is a beautiful thing—nearly as beautiful as a hardwood plantation of beech or oak. With repeated gratitude to the noble Lord who has just spoken, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn
House adjourned at eighteen minutes past seven o'clock.