Sitting of 14 May 1947

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

BURMA (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS)
The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN of the HOUSE-HOLD (Mr. MICHAEL STEWART) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:
I have received your Address praying that the Government of Burma (Temporary Provisions) Order, 1947, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament.
I will comply with your request.

HIS MAJESTY'S RETURN FROM SOUTH AFRICA
The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN of the HOUSE-HOLD reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:
I thank you sincerely for your Address and for your loyal and affectionate greetings on the return of the Queen, my Daughters and Myself from our journey in the course of which we have visited the Union of South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia, Basutoland, Bechuanaland, Swaziland and St. Helena.
We shall always remember the wonderful and inspiring welcome which we received, and the warmth of the greetings which were extended from all parts of the Commonwealth to our beloved Daughter Elizabeth on the occasion of her twenty-first birthday.
We have been greatly touched by the reception which we have received on our return to this country.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRIGHTON CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
  "to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Minister of Transport under the Brighton Corporation (Transport) Act, 1938, relating to Brighton Corporation Trolley Vehicles," presented by Mr. Barnes; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 76.]
  MEXBOROUGH AND SWINTON TRACTION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
  "to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Minister of Transport under the Mexborough and Swinton Tramways Act, 1926, relating to Mexborough and Swinton Traction Company's Trolley Vehicles," presented by Mr. Barnes; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to the printed. [Bill 77.]
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (TUNBRIDGE WELLS) BILL
  "to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Borough of Royal Tunbridge Wells," presented by Mr. Bevan; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 78.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL NAVY

    Industrial Workers, Portsmouth
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many civilian workers are employed in Portsmouth dockyard; their annual cost to the taxpayer; and, in view of the fact that their work is unsatisfactory, if he will institute an inquiry into the circumstances, details of which have been sent to him, and publish the findings as a White Paper.
    Mr. Scollan: On a point of Order. Is it in Order to ask a Question which casts a slur on good and faithful workmen who carried on very well during the war?
    Mr. Speaker: If the Question passed the Table, I am quite sure it is in Order. What may be behind it is not a question for me.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): The number of industrial workers employed in the four main professional departments of Portsmouth Dockyard in the week ending 26th April last was 13,606, the annual cost being approximately £3,622,000. As regards the further points raised in the Question, if the hon. Member will furnish me with specific instances of unsatisfactory work I will have the matter investigated.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the fact that I have sent the Admiralty particulars of what is behind this Question, and in view of the national importance of the efficiency of the Royal Navy these days, will the hon. Gentleman do all he can to stop the ca'canny and the waste of public money in Portsmouth Dockyard?
    Mr. Edwards: The information which has been sent by the hon. Member contained nothing of a specific nature at all. It was only based on "the following firsthand and reliable information" of which he gave no detail, and I think it would be an absolute waste of public money to institute an inquiry and to issue a White Paper on a matter which has no foundation whatsoever.
    Mr. Gallacher: Withdraw and apologise.
    Major Bruce: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the workers in the Portsmouth Dockyard resent the gratuitous insult on the quality of their work coming from this Member of the Conservative Party? Is he also aware that the three Members of Parliament for Portsmouth are fully capable of representing the city without the unsought and unskilled assistance of the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers)?
    Captain Marsden: Is it not a fact that Admiral Sir Geoffrey Layton, Commander-in-Chief, Portsmouth, has been responsible for fine work—
    Mr. Gallacher: Withdraw and apologise.
    Mr. Speaker: I think we had better get on.

    Foreign Trawlers, British Shipyards
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many fishing trawlers are being constructed in British shipyards on foreign account; and how many of these trawlers are being purchased with blocked sterling.
    Mr. W. Edwards: Twenty-three fishing trawlers are at present under construction in British shipyards for foreign owners. So far as I am aware, none of these trawlers is being purchased with blocked sterling.
    Mr. Marshall: May I ask the Minister the nationalities concerned?
    Mr. Edwards: Eighteen are from Iceland, four from France and one from the Faroes.

    Scientific Service
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many applications to join the R.N. Scientific Service have there been since 1st January, 1946; and how many of these have been accepted.
    Mr. Edwards: The R.N. Scientific Service is composed of both permanent and temporary staff. The permanent appointments are filled from the Scientific Civil Service, for which there is centralised recruitment. This recruitment is conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners, who are responsible for the allocation of successful candidates according to their qualifications and the vacancies in the various Departments employing scientific staff. The number of staff entered by this method since 1st January, 1946, is 571. Temporary staff are mainly recruited for work of short duration for which special qualifications are necessary.
    Commander Noble: Could the Civil Lord say whether it was due to a shortage of staff that the Navy were under-spent in the scientific service last year?
    Mr. Edwards: I think that point was dealt with on the Navy Estimates; it was not only a question of shortage of staff, it was also a question of the shortage of available buildings for the purpose of employing staff.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Is my hon. Friend now satisfied with the numbers being allocated to the Navy from the central pool?
    Mr. Edwards: At the moment we are satisfied having regard to the possibilities of employing them. There is a great demand for scientists at the present time, and I feel that we have our fair quota of them at the moment.

    Dockyard Wages, Malta
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what steps have been taken to meet and reopen negotiations with the trade union representatives of the workers employed in His Majesty's Dockyard in Malta, in view of their rejection of his Department's offer of 6s. a week increase in their minimum wage.
    Mr. W. Edwards: Representations made on behalf of the workpeople in His Majesty's Dockyard, Malta, that increases of pay lately approved are inadequate were fully considered, and the Commander-in-Chief was informed that the Admiralty were satisfied that the increases were fair and equitable, and that they were unable to agree to any further increase. No further representations have so far been received.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case that the authorities there are endeavouring to impose conditions on the workers without any consultation, or any attempt to get an agreement with the union representatives of the men?
    Mr. Edwards: There is not the slightest foundation for that statement. We have joint negotiating machinery there in the same way as we have in other parts of the world and in this country, and the representatives of the men have every opportunity of making a case out in Malta on this issue, but they have not done so since the award was granted.
    Mr. W. J. Brown: Might I ask what facilities there are for submitting claims like this to arbitration where agreement cannot be reached through the ordinary negotiating channels?
    Mr. Edwards: At the moment there are no facilities for arbitration in Malta, but the whole question of arbitration is being gone into.
    Mr. Gallacher: Has there been any attempt, since the rejection of the offer, to meet and discuss with the representatives of the men the issues involved in
    1474
    the award and in the rejection of the award?
    Mr. Edwards: There has been no attempt because the men have made no application for it, but as soon as the men's representatives make an application, as at all other times, we shall be only too ready to meet them.

    Reserve (Fishermen)
    Mr. Beechmanasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will make a further statement on the reinstitution of the R.N. Reserve; and whether he will give an assurance that fishermen called up for service will, if medically fit, give service with the R.N. so as to qualify for the R.N. Reserve.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. John Dugdale): On the first part of this Question I am unable to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member's Question on 5th February. The future organisation and functions of the R.N.R. are still under active consideration.
    As regards the second part of the Question, the number of National Service entrants required for the Navy is limited. The automatic acceptance of all fishermen for the Navy might therefore result in the exclusion of some men from other walks of life who have higher qualifications for training in the Navy's technical work. I regret, therefore, that I am unable to give the assurance asked for by the hon. Member. Fishermen who express a preference for the Navy are considered on their individual qualifications as indicated in the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour on 27th February.
    Mr. Beechman: Did not the Minister of Labour on 27th February give an assurance that fishermen, if medically fit, would be called up to the Navy? Is it not most desirable for our defence that men who have a calling for the sea should do their service with the Royal Navy?
    Mr. Dugdale: I understand that that assurance was given in answer to a supplementary question. In fact, it may not be possible to give a definite assurance that all fishermen, though medically fit, can be taken. I cannot give that assurance because we have other candidates, and we must see that we get the best for the Navy from whatever source.
    Mr. Edward Evans: Is there not a danger, if fishermen are not directed into the Navy, that on the termination of their service they will not be attracted back into the fishing industry? Is it not extremely important that recruitment for the fishing industry should have serious consideration by the Minister?
    Mr. Dugdale: Yes, certainly. We want to do everything possible to encourage the fishing industry, but I cannot give a definite guarantee on this point. That is what I made clear.
    Mr. D. Marshall: Will the Minister take all these points into consideration and further take note that the whole of the personnel of the fishing fleets is absolutely invaluable to our security whenever it is endangered?

    Commander-in-Chief, Portsmouth (Speech)
    Major Bruceasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the speech of Admiral Sir Geoffrey Layton Commander-in-Chief, Portsmouth Command, on 8th May, 1947, in which he stated that the Royal Navy does not like conscription, but it is the Government of the day that ordered it; and, as this speech was not in conformity with Subsection (2) of paragraph 17 of King's Regulations for the Naval Forces, what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. Dugdale: The speech to which the hon. and gallant Member refers was made to the ship's company and to the cadets of H.M.S. "Frobisher." The published version was not a verbatim report, but Admiral Layton does not dispute its general accuracy. He has informed my noble Friend that the main point he desired to make was that a national service system involved the entry into the Royal Navy of a certain number of men who, because of the shortness of their service, have not the same interest in Naval life as the long service men to which the Royal Navy has been accustomed in the past and who do not settle down so well; for that reason special efforts are required on the part of officers and men to fit them into the general scheme. Admiral Layton did not intend to criticise Admiralty and Government policy in the continuance of national service as being essential under present conditions and made it clear that it was
    1476
    incumbent on all concerned to carry out that policy.
    My noble Friend has accepted the Admiral's explanation, though he has considered it correct to explain to him that his statement was unfortunate and it would have been better had it not been made. He does not regard the occasion, however, as one calling for disciplinary action under Article 17 (ii) of King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions.
    Major Bruce: Will my hon. Friend make it quite clear that, despite the speech of the Commander-in-Chief, all those who are called upon to perform their national service in the Navy will receive the traditional Navy welcome; and will he give an undertaking that announcements in future on naval policy and attitude, which are likely to give rise to controversy, will be made by the Board of Admiralty and not by subordinate commanders?
    Mr. Dugdale: With regard to the first part of the question, I have the greatest pleasure in giving the guarantee that all national service men will be welcomed into the Navy as they come into it, and that they will receive quite as good treatment as those who are there as regular Service men. With regard to the second part of the question, naturally I cannot give a guarantee that no person other than the Board of Admiralty will make a statement on policy, but I hope that in future no such statement will be made.
    Commander Galbraith: Is it not perfectly obvious, from the context of the speech as published in the Press, that all the Commander-in-Chief was doing was expressing the preference of the Navy for long service as against short service? Was he not acting in the best traditions of the Navy when he pointed out that it was the duty of the Service to act implicitly in accordance with the orders of His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Dugdale: I cannot accept that altogether. I think a statement which said that a certain section of national service men or conscripts regarded the Navy as their enemy, looked on it as a nuisance, made themselves a nuisance to the officers and chief petty officers, and spent much of their time in detention quarters, is not a statement that ought to have been made. The fact that, following on that, he then said that the orders of the Government would be obeyed

    1477
    implicitly, does not alter the first part of his statement, and it is that to which exception has been taken.
    Sir Ronald Ross: In view of those officers who cannot reply personally—that is officers in the Service and Whips of this House—are not personal attacks rather unfortunate? Should not the matter be left either to the Admiralty or to the Government as the case may be?
    Mr. Dugdale: If I may reply to what I conceive to be the question put to me, although it was put rather indirectly, the action of my hon. Friend the Junior Lord of the Treasury is not a matter on which I am called upon to comment in an official capacity, but I think that all hon. Members of the House will agree that any hon. Member, whether in the Government or not in the Government, is quite entitled to comment on a speech made publicly in his own constituency.
    Mr. Medland: Can my hon. Friend inform me when Admiral Layton will be retired, and whether he is likely to be re-employed?
    Sir Jocelyn Lucas: Did not the Prime Minister himself say that he did not like conscription? Surely Admiral Layton is entitled to endorse that statement with the qualification that any decision of the Government will have the loyal support of the Royal Navy?
    Mr. Speaker: I think we had better get on.
    Major Bruce: On a point of Order. In view of the constitutional importance of the whole matter raised by this question, and of the supplementaries from the Opposition, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising this matter on the Adjournment.

    Instructor Branch (Commissions)
    Mr. K. Lindsayasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what response he has had to the offer of short-service commissions in the education branch of the R.N.
    Mr. Dugdale: Two hundred and six applications have so far been received for short-service commissions in the Instructor Branch of the Royal Navy. Eighty-two of these have been accepted for entry.
    Mr. Lindsay: Can my hon. Friend say how many he requires?
    Mr. Dugdale: I am afraid I cannot. without notice.

    Dartmouth Entries
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the total number of candidates who presented' themselves for all types of entry to the R.N. Colleges, Dartmouth or Eaton, in 1941 and 1946, respectively; and the number of candidates for grant-aided scholarships and ordinary scholarships, respectively, included in those figures.
    Mr. Dugdale: As the answer includes a number of figures I will, with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Commander Noble: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether there is rise or fall in the figures?
    Mr. Dugdale: There are about two pages of figures, and, quite frankly, i could not say offhand.
    Following is the answer:
    As the entry into Dartmouth by scholarship did not begin until September, 1941, there was only one entry in that year with a scholarship element instead of the normal three. To enable a better comparison to be made, I have therefore ventured to substitute figures for the first complete year in 1942.

    Numbers of Candidates.

    1942

    1946

    For scholarship only:

    (a) From grant-aided secondary schools.

    412

    179

    (b) From other schools

    51

    14

    For ordinary entry only

    220

    121

    For both scholarship and ordinary entry:

    (c) From grant-aided secondary schools.

    47

    35

    (d) From other schools

    161

    74

    891

    423

    H.M.S. "Delhi"
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on what duties is H.M.S. "Delhi" now employed.
    Mr. Dugdale: H.M.S. "Delhi" is present in reserve.
    Commander Noble: Is there any truth in the suggestion that this ship is to be converted as a training ship for a Royal Naval Volunteer headquarters?
    Mr. Dugdale: I cannot state the exact future of this ship, but at present it is in category "C" reserve.

  POST OFFICE

    Imperial Cable Service
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Postmaster-General for how long his Department undertook the Imperial Cable Service, and on what date it was handed over to the Cable and Wireless Company; and for what reasons.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Wilfred Paling): The Post Office operated a transatlantic cable service from 1917 until 1928, and wireless services to various Empire countries from 1926 until 1928. In 1928 these cable and wireless services were transferred to Imperial and International Communications, Ltd., subsequently known as Cable and Wireless, Ltd., on the recommendations of the Imperial Wireless and Cable Conference of that year. The considerations which led to these recommendations are set out in the Report of the Conference, which was published as a White Paper (Cmd. 3163).
    Sir W. Smithers: Is it not a fact that the Post Office tried to run this Imperial service for a long time and it was a failure and directly it went over to Cable and Wireless it became a roaring success?
    Mr. Paling: No, Sir, the hon. Member is quite wrong; he has got it wrong side up.

    Crown Post Offices
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir William Allenasked the Postmaster-General the number of Crown post offices in each of the 12 largest cities or towns in the United Kingdom, giving the populations in each case.
    Mr. Wilfred Paling: As the answer is rather long, I shall, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, arrange for it to be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir W. Allen: While I accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, could he give me now the comparative
    1480
    figures referring to Belfast and the city of Edinburgh?
    Mr. Paling: The Edinburgh figures are 18 Crown post offices and 471,000 population—I have given the approximate population—Belfast, five Crown post offices and 447,000 population.
    Sir W. Allen: Will the Minister take into consideration the fact that Belfast is a hive of industry, with a large population, and has only five Crown post offices, compared with the beautiful city of Edinburgh, which is largely residential, and has 18 Crown post offices? Will he look into the matter, and see whether he cannot give us more Crown post offices?
    Mr. Paling: I am always willing to consider that.
    Following is the answer:
    In the London postal area, the population of which approaches 4,500,000, there are 204 Crown post offices. The figures for the 12 largest cities outside London are:

    County Borough of.

    Number of Crown Post Offices.

    Estimated population at 31st December, 1946.

    Birmingham

    43

    1,090,150

    Glasgow (Royal Burgh)

    32

    1,075,744

    Liverpool

    25

    751,820

    Manchester

    34

    684,640

    Sheffield

    7

    508,850

    Leeds

    10

    493,120

    Edinburgh (Royal Burgh.)

    18

    471,192

    Bristol

    16

    452,320

    Belfast

    5

    447,918

    Newcastle-upon-Tyne

    7

    290,730

    Nottingham

    4

    290,320

    Kingston-upon-Hull

    7

    287,380

    Parcel Post, South Wales
    Mr. George Thomasasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the many complaints being made concerning the delay in parcel post delivery to South Wales; and what steps he is taking to remedy this matter.
    Mr. Wilfred Paling: Very few complaints concerning delay to parcels for addressees in South Wales have been received. If the hon. Member has any particular district or address in mind and will let me have full particulars, I will be happy to have inquiry made.

    Northville, Filton
    Mr. Alpassasked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the needs of the inhabitants of the locality, he will favourably consider the establishment of a Crown post office at Northville, Filton.
    Mr. Wilfred Paling: I regret that the establishment of a Crown post office at Northville, Filton, could not be justified, but I hope that it will be possible shortly to reopen the Northville sub-post office which unfortunately had to be closed recently owing to the resignation of the sub-postmaster.
    Mr. Alpass: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there have been very large developments at Northville in recent years, that the population has increased from 3,000-odd in 1931, to more than 11,000 in 1946, that there are large numbers of contractors and sub-contractors engaged on the important Brabazon project, and that the establishment of a Crown post office would be a very great convenience? Will he look into this matter again, with the object of providing that convenience for this large number of people?
    Mr. Paling: I will look into it, but the main trouble was that the sub-post office had to be closed. It is to be opened in the very near future.

    Telephones (Cheap Call Period)
    Mr. Proctorasked the Postmaster-General if he will consider the extension of the period of cheap telephone calls from 9.30 p.m. to 11.30 p.m.
    Mr. Wilfred Paling: In view of the national manpower situation, I regret that there is no early Prospect of an extension of the cheap call period.
    Mr. Peter Freeman: Will my right hon. Friend consider extending it to 10 o'clock, which would be greatly appreciated?
    Mr. Paling: The decision to make it 9.30 p.m. was taken after a lot of consideration, and to extend it to 10 o'clock would mean a lot of extra manpower.

    Postmen
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaiteasked the Postmaster-General the numbers of postmen, both permanent and temporary, employed by his Department
    1482
    on 20th October, 1946, 10th January, 1947, and 20th April, 1947, respectively.
    Mr. Wilfred Paling: The nearest dates for which the information desired by the hon. and gallant Member is available are 1st October, 1946, 1st January, 1947, and 1st April, 1947. The numbers are as follow. Part-time officers have been counted as a half each, and post-women have been included.

    1st October, 1946

    …

    …

    82,150

    1st January, 1947

    …

    …

    85,178

    1st April, 1947

    …

    …

    85,868

    Mr. Keeling: Can the Postmaster-General explain why, when there was an increase from October to January, and no decrease from January to April, it has been necessary to make such drastic cuts in the postal collections and deliveries?
    Mr. Paling: I understand that some of these figures are due to certain reorganisation work, in the main.
    Mr. Keeling: Does that mean shorter hours?
    Mr. Paling: Not necessarily.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: In view of the fact that these late collection and delivery facilities were reinstituted on 7th January, and there has been a slight increase in the general staff of postmen since then, why did the right hon. Gentleman tell the House last week that the number was reduced because of shortage of staff?
    Mr. Paling: Because we have to make our general contribution on the manpower problem, and we have been asked to do so.
    Mr. Nally: Can my right hon. Friend give a specific assurance that none of the additions to the Post Office staff is to deal with football pool traffic, and a further assurance—
    Mr. Speaker: The Question deals with the numbers of postmen, not with football pools.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: In view of the nature of the reply I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter again.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Battle of Britain (Enemy Losses)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will publish in

    1483
    the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement of the total number of enemy aircraft shot down during the Battle of Britain, according to contemporary R.A.F. estimates and German official records, respectively; and whether he will give the figures for the biggest days of the battle.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): Yes, Sir, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the statement for which the hon. Member has asked showing the number of enemy aircraft which the R.A.F. claimed at the time to have been destroyed during the Battle of Britain, and the actual losses recorded by the German High Command. Between 10th July, when the action began, and 31st October, when the Germans broke it off, the R.A.F. estimated that 2,692 enemy aircraft had been destroyed. The German records show that, in fact, 2,376 of their aircraft had been put out of action; of these, 1,733 were destroyed and 643 were damaged. The figures I am circulating show that during the opening and concluding phases of the battle, while the numbers engaged were relatively small, and the fighting less continuous and intense, the losses actually inflicted on the enemy were higher than the numbers claimed by the R.A.F. When very large forces were in action, and when the battle raged without respite for many days, the estimates were well above the losses which the Luftwaffe sustained.
    I am sure the House will agree that this retrospective correction of claims which were honestly put forward, does nothing to diminish the achievements or to dim the glory of the men who fought so bravely against great odds. As the Chief of the German General Staff in the West said in a confidential lecture in November, 1943, the German Army could not invade England until the British Air Arm had been completely beaten; and this, he said, "we were not able to do." There is abundant confirmation of this spontaneous statement in the German records; they show that Hitler's High Command fully recognised that the R.A.F. had inflicted a decisive defeat on their forces, and that, in consequence, their plan for the invasion of Britain could not even be launched, although a great army had been assembled and had been waiting for many days. Looking back to 1940, it is impossible to
    1484
    doubt that one of the decisive battles of history had been won.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: As the Polish Air Force took a considerable part in the Battle of Britain, will the Minister, in fairness to them, say what they did?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. There were Poles and nationals of many Allied countries in the R.A.F. at that time, and, of course, from the Dominions also. If the hon. and gallant Member cares to put down a Question, I will try to particularise.
    Mr. Mallalieu: Does my right hon. Friend intend to publish corrected figures for other air operations?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. We shall publish all the figures for the operations of the R.A.F. right through the war. We shall do that when the picture is complete, and we can publish the history.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that this victory was won not only by Fighter Command, but also to a large extent by Bomber and Coastal Commands, and that this glorious victory not only saved us from invasion, but made England a secure base for future Allied operations by land, sea and air?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. The hon. Member may have noticed that I did not mention any particular Command. As he says, other Commands took part with Fighter Command in the battle, and there is evidence from the German naval records that the work of Bomber Command, particularly in attacking the invasion ports, was a very important factor in the German decision.
    Mr. Driberg: Will my right hon. Friend say a word about the way in which this very important news was communicated to the Press? Is he aware that these details were released to the Press confidentially two days ago, and that that confidence was honoured by all the newspapers except one?
    Hon. Members: Which one?
    Mr. Driberg: The "Daily Telegraph."
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I thought it had been honoured by all. I greatly regret that it was not.
    Mr. M. Lindsay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these battles would

    1485
    not have taken place had the Royal Air Force not been increased for five years before the war, in spite of every opposition by the party opposite?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I would not accept any such statement.
    Major Bruce: Will my right hon. Friend say whether the figures which he intends

    LOSSES OF GERMAN AIRCRAFT IN THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN ACCORDING TO
    CONTEMPORARY R.A.F. ESTIMATES AND OFFICIAL GERMAN RECORDS.

    Date.

    R.A.F. Estimate.

    German Losses.

    Destroyed.

    Destroyed.

    Damaged.

    10TH JULY-7TH AUGUST—

    Preliminary Phase of the Battle

    188

    192 (63)

    77

    8TH AUGUST-23RD AUGUST

    Attack on Coastal Targets

    755

    430 (213)

    127

    24TH AUGUST-6TH SEPTEMBER

    Attacks of Fighter Command Airfields

    643

    378 (243)

    127

    7TH SEPTEMBER-30TH SEPTEMBER

    Daylight attack of London chiefly by Heavy Bombers

    846

    435 (134)

    163

    1 ST OCTOBER-31ST OCTOBER

    Daylight attack of London chiefly by Fighter Bombers

    260

    325 (134)

    163

    TOTAL LOSSES DURING THE BATTLE

    2,692

    1,733 (896)

    643

    NOTE: Figures in brackets show the losses admitted in communiques issued at the time by the German High Command.

    West Indians
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Air for what reason 715136 Corporal M. Nicholson, a West Indian, was not allowed to complete his studies in the R.A.F.; and what restrictions exist regarding the enlistment of West Indians
    to publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT will include the number of aircraft shot down by artillery in this country?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: The figure I have given includes them. If my hon. and gallant Friend puts down a Question, I will give him a detailed answer.
    Following is the statement:
    in the R.A.F. which are not applied to British subjects from the United Kingdom.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Corporal Nicholson is due for release from the R.A.F., and it seemed unlikely, therefore, that he could complete his studies before the time arrived for his repatriation. It is true

    1487
    that he applied a few months ago to remain in the Service under the Bounty Scheme, but he could not then be accepted because he had not served for the minimum period of two years that the scheme required. He has now finished his two years' service, and has applied again. If, as I hope, his application is approved, he can then complete his studies and take his examination. I am glad to assure the hon. Member that there are no restrictions on the enlistment of West Indians in the R.A.F. which do not equally apply to British subjects from the United Kingdom.

    Malta (Overseas Tour)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is satisfied that the majority of airmen serving in Malta consider that the reduction of the overseas tour compensates for the abolition of eligibility for home leave after 12 months' service overseas; and if he will consider the possibility of reintroducing such a home-leave scheme, especially in view of the frequent air services between Malta and the United Kingdom.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. I have made inquiries and I am satisfied that the majority of the airmen now in Malta prefer the present shorter tour to the previous arrangement under which they served overseas for a longer time with the possibility of a short period of home leave. As at present advised, therefore, I do not propose to change the existing arrangements.

    Aircrew Release
    Mr. Hugh Fraserasked the Secretary of State for Air, why H.Q. Flying Training Command's order FTC/67462/4/P of 12th February, 1947, has been rescinded; and whether he is aware of the inequity of debasing the release status of U/T and now redundant aircrews to that of A.C.2s.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: The order issued on 12th February by Flying Training Command was unfortunately wrong. By an unhappy confusion, it applied the principles laid down for the release of redundant qualified aircrew to redundant unqualified aircrew cadets. The order was cancelled on 6th March, but I am afraid it had already caused misunderstanding and disappointment, which I much regret. The hon. Member will no doubt
    1488
    recall that shortly after V.E. Day, unqualified aircrew were released from further liability for aircrew training, and were remustered in ground trades. Cadets who were in this category are released from their new trade not according to rank, but on the age and service principle. I hope the hon. Member may agree that this is the fairest plan.

    Industrial Workers (Breaks)
    Mr. Parkinasked the Secretary of State for Air how the decision to cut the tea break for civilian employees at maintenance units from 15 to 10 minutes was arrived at; whether the workers were consulted; whether they were invited to put forward further suggestions for increasing the speed and efficiency of their work; and what improvements are to be carried out.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Before the war, there were no breaks for tea at R.A.F. maintenance units. During the war, when long hours were being worked, informal breaks were, in practice, allowed, although no official recognition was ever given. On 3rd April last, an Air Ministry order provided that there should be two ten-minute breaks, one in the morning, and the other in the afternoon. This applied in Air Ministry establishments an arrangement which had previously been made for Ministry of Supply establishments by the Ministry of Supply Joint Industrial Council. All Air Ministry industrial workers are invited to make suggestions for improving the efficiency of their work, through their local Whitley Works Committees or Production Committees, in which both the staff side and the trade unions play a part.
    Mr. Parkin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Members on this side of the House receive a large number of complaints about the waste of manpower in maintenance units? These complaints come from workers employed in those units who are supporters of the present Government. Would not this have provided an opportunity for fuller consultation with the workers to elicit further suggestions with regard to economy in manpower?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am strongly in favour of consultation with the workers, but, as I say, either through the production committees or the Whitley Works Committees,

    1489
    the workers can at any time make any suggestion, and I hope that my hon. Friend's Question and my answer might have the effect of stimulating them to do so.
    Mr. Gammans: Is it not a tact that in many cases, in addition to the 10 minutes spent on the tea break, additional time is occupied by men going to and from the canteen for their tea?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I would like notice of that. I am not aware of it.
    Mr. Tiffany: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the redundancy there is in many of these maintenance units?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I think the R.A.F. has done pretty well on redundancy, and my hon. Friend may be aware of our manpower economy committee, which is at present making a most exhaustive study of the whole subject.

    Night Flying
    Mr. Bowdenasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that low night flying still continues over the city of Leicester, that workers are having their rest disturbed; and if he will take the necessary action with local R.A.F. units to prevent flying over this built-up area during the hours of darkness.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: No complaints about night flying over Leicester have reached my Department or the civil police since my hon. Friend last asked me a question on the subject on 5th February. I am, however, warning all units in the Leicester area that they should avoid flying over the town at night.
    Mr. Rankin: Will my right hon. Friend see that the ban applies not only during hours of darkness, but also during the day?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I would like notice of that.

    Education Branch
    Mr. K. Lindsayasked the Secretary of State for Air the present number of education officers; and what is the required establishment.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: The establishment of the R.A.F. Education Branch has not yet been settled, but it will probably include about 1,000 officers. There are now 255.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how long it is expected to take to expand from about 250 to about 1,000? How many years will that process take place?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: As the hon. Member knows, it is difficult to get people with teaching qualifications at present. We are, in fact, filling about 600 posts with officers and n.c.os. now in the Royal Air Force who have educational qualifications. In that way I hope we shall be able to bridge the gap.
    Mr. Morley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he cannot get these education officers because of the bad treatment that education officers in the R.A.F. received during the war; and will he see that some retrospective justice is done to the education officers who served during the war?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: That is another question, which I cannot now debate. I hope that my hon. Friend will help me to make it known to those who might apply that, in fact, conditions now are good.
    Mr. K. Lindsayasked the Secretary of State for Air what response he has had to the offer of short-service education commissions.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Up to the 10th May, 1947, 220 applications had been received for short-service commissions in the education branch of the R.A.F. At that date, 49 officers had been appointed.
    Mr. Lindsay: Can my right hon. Friend say what is the number expected?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: We want to get as many as we can, up to the limits which I have already announced.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that he would get a better response if he offered permanent commissions instead of short-service ones?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I think I said in the Debates on the Estimates, that we plan, in the long run, to have an educational branch of which one-third shall consist of long-term officers and two-thirds of short-term service commissions. We think that is the best plan, and I hope that we shall get the men we need.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Can the right hon. Gentleman let us know in the OFFICIAL REPORT, by a tabular statement or otherwise, the academic and professional qualifications of these 220 applicants?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I can let the hon. Member know the qualifications of those who have been accepted, but that is by no means the whole.
    Mr. Vane: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether conscientious objectors are eligible for commissions in this noncombatant branch of the Service?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Not without notice.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Seat Allocation (Priority)
    Mr. Jenningsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether he is aware that the method of priority allocations of air passage is causing inconvenience and dissatisfaction to those engaged in developing our export trade by last minute cancellations and rushed arrangements; and if he will inquire into this matter with a view to altering this system.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): I am aware that inconvenience may be caused to a passenger who is displaced at short notice by someone with a higher priority. I am afraid that this is from time to time inevitable under the present system, the whole purpose of which is to ensure that the passenger whose business is of the greatest importance to the national effort, including our export trade, goes first. In regard to the second part of the Question, priority allocations are under my personal review week by week as chairman of the London Priorities Board.
    Mr. Jennings: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the cases I have in mind concern business men from Sheffield who have suffered great inconvenience through the last minute cancellation of seats in aeroplanes and will he tell the House what constitutes priority r and priority 2? Will he lift the veil of secrecy which seems to be over this system?
    Mr. Lindgren: There is no secrecy at all in regard to the system. Priorities are necessary because of the demand and the
    1492
    small capacity with which to meet it. Where there is a person of higher priority, it is virtually a necessity of the priority system that another person shall stand down. Priority I relates to the diplomatic standard—Ministers or foreign Ministers—and there are very few; priority 2 refers to persons travelling for the export trade and other work of high national importance; and priority 3 is of lesser importance. Those priorities are determined by the sponsoring Departments.
    Mr. Jennings: How does the hon. Gentleman reconcile that statement with the fact that these business men are going abroad for the express purpose of increasing our export trade which, I thought, was high priority? In addition, when they have made all their plans and arrangements and are called to the airport at a later date, very often they find that the aeroplane is half-empty.
    Mr. Lindgren: That is a statement often made. I have not yet, although I have asked repeatedly in this House, had information in regard to plane, date and service of an aircraft in which those circumstances apply. If, in fact, the hon. Member can give me any information at all, I shall give it my personal attention and inquiry.
    Mr. Jennings: I have given it before
    Mr. Lindgren: No.
    Mr. Jennings: I have.

    Cardiff—Southampton
    Mr. Awberyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (1) if fully loaded Dakota aircraft can be operated on the Cardiff-Bristol-Southampton run, or what machines are to be introduced in the near future instead of the machines now in use;
    (2) to what extent a change from De Havilland Rapides aircraft now used on the Cardiff-Bristol-Southampton route would reduce the present fares which are beyond the reach of the average traveller; and if he will expedite a change to enable more people to travel on this service.
    Mr. Lindgren: As none of the airfields on the Cardiff-Bristol-Southampton route is large enough to accommodate a fully loaded Dakota, that aircraft cannot be operated on the route. No aircraft is immediately in sight which could be expected to replace with advantage the

    1493
    De Havilland Rapides which are at present used. In these circumstances the second Question does not arise.

  GERMANY

    Fusion
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give an assurance that no decision establishing a combined German Government for the Western zones of Germany will be reached before this House has been consulted.
    The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): Discussions are now proceeding between the British and United States authorities in Germany on methods of making more effective the bi-zonal agencies already constituted, including ways of making these agencies more representative of German opinion in the two zones. There is no intention of giving these agencies the status of a government.
    Mr. Warbey: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an explicit assurance that no political fusion of the two zones is contemplated and that nothing will be done which would tend to harden or make permanent the division between Eastern and Western Germany?
    Mr. McNeil: My right hon. Friend has already repeatedly made his position clear on this subject. Such arrangements as we make will allow for unity at any time. There is nothing we desire more than the economic fusion of Germany on equitable terms.
    Mr. Stokes: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that one of the most sensible things done at Potsdam was to stipulate for a uniform German Government, and is it not under the circumstances an essential precedent to a uniform Government that the three Western zones should first be united?

    Exit Permit
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will expedite the issue by the Passport Control Officer, Berlin, of a permit, which has been long delayed, to enable Fraulein Kaethe Alpers, Hanoverschestrasse 12A, Celle, Hanover, to join her fiance in England.
    Mr. McNeil: The issue of an exit permit has been approved in this case. A visa, to enable Miss Alpers to enter this country, will be granted as soon as certain guarantees are received from her. These, I understand, have now been depatched by Miss Alpers.

    Trade Union Movement (Appointment)
    Mr. Martin Lindsayasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what appointment in the Control Commission for Germany has been given to Mr. J. R. S. Middleton; what salary this appointment carries; and whether the selection for it was competitive.
    Mr. McNeil: I assume the hon. Member is referring to Mr. J. R. S. Middlewood who has recently been appointed a chief control officer in the manpower division of the Control Commission for Germany to assist in supervising the development of a trade union movement in Germany. The appointment, which carries a salary of £1,600 with the usual allowances for service in Germany, was made after a number of candidates had been considered.
    Mr. Lindsay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this man has now got an appointment at five times his present salary, that the appointment has caused widespread annoyance in the county of Durham, and that he only received this appointment because he is chairman of the Labour Party for the Bishop Auckland Division?
    Mr. McNeil: I sharply resent any such imputation. The man appointed has had a lifetime of expert experience in the trade union movement and in local government. I am not aware what salary he presently enjoys, but I know that he is competent to do the job which must be done in Germany.

    Penicillin Supplies
    Mr. Somerville Hastingsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many patients there were in the municipal hospital at Bielefeld, Westphalia, Germany, in April, 1947, in need of penicillin to save life; for how many of these cases was penicillin asked for and provided by the Control Commission; and for how many it was refused.
    Mr. McNeil: There were, I understand, nine cases in which the medical officer in

    1495
    charge would have given penicillin if a supply had been available in the hospital. The Control Commission were not asked to provide supplies for any of the cases.
    Mr. Hastings: If I give my right hon. Friend the names of patients who needed penicillin and the names of those for whom a supply was asked and not received, will he look further into the matter?
    Mr. McNeil: I am very concerned about this matter, but the point I want to make is that while I know that at least nine patients needed penicillin on medical advice, no approach was made to the Control authorities.
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement as to the present state of progress in the production of penicillin in Germany.
    Mr. McNeil: Present production is by surface culture. Although encouraged, it does not exceed 3,600 mega units a year in all four zones. The possibility of production by the deep culture process is under discussion by the British and American authorities.
    Mr. Hastings: Can my right hon. Friend say whether he expects to be able to give more information shortly about production by the deep culture method?
    Mr. McNeil: That is under study, and I will be very glad to discuss it further with my hon. Friend.

  GREECE (CO-OPERATIVE MOVEMENT)
  Mr. Formanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will consider instructing the British Mission in Greece to assist the development of consumers co-operatives in Greece and to supply them with information about the work of the co-operative societies in this country.
  Mr. McNeil: The British Economic Mission already have the necessary instructions. Moreover, in addition to the efforts which they have made to assist the cooperatives in Greece I am glad to be able to inform my hon. Friend that the national executive of the Co-operative Union have
  1496
  generously undertaken to pay the expenses of three Greek students at the Cooperative College at Loughborough It is hoped that these young men will begin their studies at the college in the autumn of this year. The experience and knowledge they will obtain there should be of great value to the Co-operative movement in Greece.

  BRITISH BROADCASTS, EUROPE
  Mr. Benn Levyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what critical representations have been received in respect of British broadcasts on the European service from the U.S. representatives through either Foreign Office or other channels.
  Mr. McNeil: My right hon. Friend is aware of only two representations. which might be termed critical, having been made during the past year by American representatives. The first, in November, 1946, concerned two news reports broadcast in German on 7th and 14th November, and the second related to certain items broadcast in Hungarian during the last week of March, 1947.
  Mr. Levy: Was it made clear at the time that such representations or attempted interferences from a foreign Power were improper and could not be accepted?
  Mr. McNeil: Perhaps my hon. Friend would like to see the text of the representations. I assure him that they were not improper.
  Mr. Thurtle: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these few American so called interferences with B.B.C. broadcasting are nothing compared with the number of official criticisms by Russia of the British broadcasting system?
  Mr. Levy: Am I correct in understanding from the Minister's reply that these were the only two representations and, therefore, that there were none from Russia?

  MINISTER'S SPEECH
  Mr. Gammansasked the Prime Minister if the speech made by the Minister of Fuel and Power at Edinburgh on 5th May regarding women's voluntary organisations represents the policy of His Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I understand from my right hon. Friend that he made reference solely to the Housewives' League and did not mention women's voluntary organisations in general. He was expressing a personal opinion.
  Mr. Gammans: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Minister of Fuel and Power used the expression "Lord, forgive them, for they know not what they do—"
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member knows that that was put down and ruled out of Order. Therefore, he cannot put the question again as a supplementary. We cannot have the gist of that question in another form, because it was ruled out of Order when first presented to the Table.
  Mr. Gammans: May I put it this way? Will the Prime Minister dissociate himself from the expression used by the Minister of Fuel and Power, which has given great offence to the people, and which in the opinion of many of them verges on blasphemy?
  The Prime Minister: I have already stated that I am only responsible for expressions which indicate Government policy. No Government policy was involved in this matter.
  Mr. Eden: May I ask the Prime Minister, since he rightly appealed for a national effort at this time, whether he really thinks that statements of this kind by Ministers are a contribution to that effort?
  The Prime Minister: I am afraid there are a great many contributions on both sides that are not helpful.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: While I deplore the utterance of my right hon. Friend in this particular connection, may I ask the Prime Minister to bear in mind that the fur-coated members of the Primrose League, who are behind- the British Housewives' League, in no wise represent the masses of British housewives?

  ARMED FORCES

    Race and Colour Bar
    Mr. Gammansasked the Minister of Defence, what restrictions of colour,
    1498
    race or religion prevent British subjects from voluntary enlistment in any one of His Majesty's forces.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): The present position is that Regular engagements in the Army are confined, as they were before the war, to British subjects of pure European descent. There are no restrictions on religious grounds. The position is substantially the same in the Royal Navy except that non-Europeans are accepted for local service on non-continuous engagements. The R.A.F., however, is now open to all British subjects without discrimination of race, religion or colour. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War has indicated, future policy in this matter is under consideration.
    Mr. Gammans: In view of the fact that there was no restriction of colour on British subjects coming to the help of this country during the war, is it not entirely repugnant that there should be any distinction whatsoever?
    Mr. Alexander: I have said that the whole matter is under consideration, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will wait until that consideration has been completed.
    Mr. Gammans: Are these considerations likely to come to fruition, and can the right hon. Gentleman say when?
    Mr. Alexander: I cannot give any fixed date.
    Mr. Driberg: Can my right hon. Friend say why it has taken over a year for the other two Services to follow the good example of the Royal Air Force?
    Mr. Alexander: There are different circumstances in some parts of the Services. I must repeat that the whole matter is under consideration between the three Services, and I will make a statement as soon as possible.

    Desertions
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Defence how the proportion of desertions during the recent war compares with that in the previous war.
    Mr. Alexander: I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to obtain the information?
    Mr. Alexander: I think it would involve far too much labour at the present time.

    Retired Pay (Cost of Living)
    Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Defence when, in view of the rise in the cost of living, he intends to restore to all ex-officers whose retired pay was stabilised in 1935 at a level below that of the 1919 basic rates, the small difference between the present rates and the 1919 basic rates.
    Mr. Alexander: It is not possible to grant further increases in consolidated rates of retired pay beyond those obtained by applying the terms of the Pensions Increase Act, 1947.
    Mr. Vane: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the refusal to make good this remaining small reduction is causing a great deal of dissatisfaction, and that it is looked upon as a breach of a pledge of honour? Further, will he reconsider it in view of the rise in the cost of living?
    Mr. Alexander: I do not think I can add any more to what has already been given to the House by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think that any further questions on the principle of pensions increases should be addressed to him.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: The right hon. Gentleman used the expression "it is not possible." Does he mean that there is some statutory impediment in the way, or that the Government are not willing to consider it?
    Mr. Alexander: I suppose that, in this matter, I follow the line of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Families, Germany (Rations)
    Mrs. Middletonasked the Minister of Defence what are the food rations per head supplied weekly to the wives and children of British Services personnel at present resident in Germany; whether these rations comprise the only source of food available to the recipients; or by what other means the rations can be augmented.
    Mr. Alexander: The wives of Service personnel in B.A.O.R. and their children
    1500
    over the age of 12 receive the same food ration as A.T.S. personnel serving in this theatre. I am sending the details to my hon. Friend. Children aged 5–12 receive five-sevenths of that ration and children up to 5 receive special rations, including an appropriate amount of tinned milk, on a scale slightly more than 2,000 calories a day. Additional tinned milk may also be purchased from N.A.A.F.I. for expectant and nursing mothers and for children aged 5–12. Children attending school receive the equivalent of one-third pint of milk daily free of charge. The provision of mid-day meals for school children is now beginning. No purchases of food from German sources are allowed, but a few items such as sauces, condiments and special baby and health foods are available for purchase in N.A.A.F.I. shops.
    Mrs. Middleton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Services and civilian personnel are sending food parcels to this country, to the extent, in some cases, of 2 lb. of butter in one parcel? In view of the food situation existing in Germany, does he not think that this practice is deplorable, and will he take steps to see that the sending of food parcels to this country from Germany is prohibited?
    Mr. Alexander: I should have thought that it would not have been possible, at any rate, for the kind of quantity mentioned by my hon. Friend, to be sent out of savings in the rations.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: Black market.
    Mr. Alexander: I have no direct evidence of a black market. I know that there are some arrangements for troops in Germany to send gift parcels from Denmark, but I will look into the matter especially to see what steps can be taken to curb it. It is already a direct offence for anyone contracted with British troops to engage in the black market, and, in cases of exposure, they would be dealt with.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Will my right hon. Friend not agree that these people should be practising self-denial in view of the extremely serious circumstances by which they are surrounded?
    Mr. Alexander indicated assent.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Condemned Imported Food
    Sir. W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food the loss to the British taxpayer incurred through Government control of imports which are unfit, or partially unfit, for human consumption, particularly of fruits.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): A full statement of the quantities of imported food condemned as unfit for human consumption was given in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Newport on 15th November. They amounted to a small fraction of one per cent., and in the particular case of fresh fruit to one-twentieth of one per cent. of total imports. To state these tiny quantities in terms of the financial loss to the taxpayer would involve an expenditure of time and labour which I am sure the hon. Member would be the first to deplore.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the Minister satisfied that with central control he gets all the information which would enable him to answer my Question?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir, in so far as these imports are centrally controlled, we get much more information about them.

    Polish Troops, Stafford
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Food what action he has taken to ensure that extra supplies of rationed food are available in the borough of Stafford to meet the demands of the Polish troops who are stationed at Seighford.
    Mr. Strachey: The Polish troops in question are fed in camp by the military authorities and cannot buy rationed foods from retailers. They may, of course, visit cafes and other catering establishments in the area but any increased demand of this kind can be met under the ordinary arrangements.
    Mr. Swingler: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I was definitely informed yesterday by the Secretary of State for War that these troops are issued with leave ration cards, that this may involve many hundreds of these cards being issued at one time, and that there is a most serious complaint in my constituency, and I believe in others, about the enormous extra demand for rationed goods and the inadequate supply for the local population?
    Mr. Strachey: I would be glad to look into the circumstances if my hon. Friend would let me have the particulars.

    Poultry Imports
    Mr. John Morrisonasked the Minister of Food the total value of dead undressed table chickens and hens imported into this country on, and since, 9th February, 1947.
    Mr. Strachey: About £1,000,000.
    Mr. Morrison: Is the Minister doing all he can to see that, while importing these birds, we do not, at the same time, bring in fowl pest?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir. As the Minister of Agriculture has already stated, these birds are eviscerated before they are imported.
    Mr. Morrison: Will the right hon. Gentleman repeat that word?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir. Eviscerated.
    Hon. Members: Drawn.

    "Food and Nutrition"
    Mr. J. Morrisonasked the Minister of Food what is the paid circulation of the monthly publication of his Department, "Food and Nutrition"; what is the cost in wages and salaries of the staff employed in its production; what is the annual profit or loss; and what special purpose is served by its appearance.
    Mr. Strachey: The present paid circulation of "Food and Nutrition" is about 3,500. The cost of Ministry of Food staff employed in its production is estimated at under £30 per month. Taking into account Stationery Office expenses and receipts there is at present a net loss of about £6 per month. The publication is designed primarily to assist Domestic Science Teachers and was originally issued as a free bulletin in July, 1943, at the request of the Board of Education.

  HERRING LANDINGS, ABERDEEN (SALES BAN)
  Mr. E. Evans(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the action of the Scottish Herring Producers' Association in organising a ban on the sale of herring landed by the English herring fleet at

  1503
  Aberdeen and whether he is aware that this prohibition is contrary to the directions of the Herring Industry Board, and in view of the present necessity to ensure maximum supplies of fish in the national interest, if he will take immediate steps to uphold the authority of the Herring Industry Board and secure the withdrawal of this ban.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood): I am aware that the Scottish Herring Producers' Association have decided to prohibit the sale in Scotland during the summer fishing of herrings landed by certain English drifters. This ban has no legal force whatever and the Herring Industry Board have already made this clear both to the association and to all others concerned. Further, the board have intimated to the association that they will take such steps as may be necessary to prevent the ban, if persisted in, from being effective. In particular the board will arrange, if necessary, for salesmen to handle the catches landed by the English drifters. I deprecate the action which the Scottish fishermen have taken on this matter and hope that on reconsideration they will change their attitude.
  Mr. Evans: While welcoming, on behalf of the herring industry, the statement made by the Minister, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that relations between the English and Scottish fishermen will be seriously prejudiced by this action, and will he do all he can to maintain the authority of the Herring Industry Board throughout the season?
  Mr. Westwood: I will certainly continue to maintain the authority of the Herring Board. If its authority is not strong enough, we shall have to consider ways and means. It will be impossible to regulate this industry aright if the Herring Board is allowed to be overruled by the Producers' Association.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Secretary of State consider having a stronger English element on the Herring Board and moving it from Edinburgh to the East coast?
  Mr. Westwood: No, Sir.
  Mr. Scollan: Could my right hon. Friend make it clear to the Scottish fisher-
  1504
  men that this is a double-edged weapon, that Scottish fishermen reap a rich harvest when they go to the South to land their catches, and that this can cut both ways?
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: Is the Secretary of State aware that the views expressed by the Herring Producers' Association in no way express the unanimous views of Scottish fishermen?
  Mr. Westwood: I was perfectly sure of that, and that is the reason I wanted the Producers' Association to understand that, as Secretary of State, I very much deprecate the action they have taken.
  Sir W. Smithers: Will the right hon. Gentleman recommend a similar policy to the Prime Minister in dealing with unofficial strikes?
  Squadron-Leader Kinghorn: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that speedy action will be taken by the Herring Industry Board so that herring fishermen in England do not have to take retaliatory action late in the season when the fish are landed at English ports?
  Mr. Westwood: I shall do everything possible to bring about amicable relations in the industry as speedily as possible.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Has the Leader of the House any pronouncement to make about tomorrow's Business?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): It is proposed to resume and conclude the Committee stage of the National Service Bill tomorrow night at the end of the first day's Debate on foreign affairs, and we trust the House will be good enough to co-operate with the Government to this end.
Mr. Eden: Is it really necessary to take this important subject after a Debate of great significance at a late hour tomorrow, and, more particularly since this Measure is not to come into operation until 1949, could not it be taken next week?
Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman has discharged the functions that I am discharging, and he knows that things must be fitted in. We have had nearly four days on the Committee stage of the

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Bill, there is not much to finish, and we think it would not be unreasonable to take it tomorrow night. It is true that it will come after an important Debate, but it will be a change of subject which should be welcome.
Mr. Eden: Will the right hon. Gentleman please understand that there can be no agreement between us on this matter, because we feel it is wrong to take this important Measure after the foreign affairs Debate?
Mr. Morrison: In view of the fact that the Leader of the Opposition has repeatedly said that the Opposition are supporting the Government in getting this Bill through, and in view of the fact that, in addition to three days in Committee, we gave Friday for the Bill, it really is not unreasonable to allow this limited amount of additional work to be done tomorrow night.
Mr. Eden: Will the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is not the principle of the Bill that is at stake, but a question of treating the House reasonably on a major Measure? After we have had a whole day of debate on foreign affairs—the first Debate on foreign affairs for two months—we cannot but regard it as unreasonable to have to take this major Bill at a late hour.
Mr. Frank Byers: No matter what the Leader of the Opposition may have said, may I remind the Leader of the House that the Prime Minister, in 1937, made a very eloquent plea that the House should have time properly to amend legislation which was going through the House, and that it should not be a mere assembly for registration? In those circumstances, I ask the right hon. Gentleman that, in connection with this great constitutional change, the House should be allowed reasonable time to amend the Bill.
Mr. Morrison: The House has had ample time for the consideration of this Bill, and, in my judgment, it is a pity that the Committee stage is not already finished. On this Bill we are certainly not treating the House unreasonably.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if he had spent as many minutes on the Front Bench as the rest of us spent hours in considering the Bill, he would realise that the discussion
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has come from all quarters of the House and has been on important matters of detail, and that there has been no attempt in any quarter to adopt dilatory or obstructive tactics?
Mr. Morrison: As to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's observations, that is the kind of thing I should expect; it is the kind of aristocratic observation I should expect. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman knows the reasons I did not stay longer than I did, and he ought to take them into account. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman knows. As to the second point, I think the Bill has been given a very generous allowance of time in Committee, and I am aware—I do not charge the Opposition in particular—that my hon. Friends on this side of the House took up as much time as the Opposition.
Mr. Stephen: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he could save a lot of time and please his own people in the country by dropping the Bill altogether?
Lieut.-Commander Gurney BraithwaiteWill the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, on this Bill or any other Bill, when the House sits beyond midnight a very great hardship in inflicted upon hon. Members who for some weeks have balloted for the Adjournment and are unable to take it?
Mr. Morrison: I am anxious that the Government shall meet the House as far as they can, but I am also anxious that the House shall co-operate with the Government in the despatch of business.
Mr. James Glanville: Might I suggest to my right hon. Friend that an easy solution of the problem of all-night Sittings would be to commence earlier in the morning?
Sir John Mellor: As I have had the good fortune in the Ballot to draw the Adjournment Motion for tomorrow night, I should like to say that whatever the hour, I have every intention of pursuing the matter which I intend to raise on that occasion.
Mr. Eden: The Leader of the House made a very serious attack upon my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley). [HON. MEMBERS: "He asked for it."] In view of that attack, will the Leader of the House tell us—

1507
because I do not know—what were the reasons why he could not be here on Friday?
Mr. Pickthorn: Is it not obvious to the right hon Gentleman that there are many other hon. and right hon. Members who also find it difficult to be here almost continuously through the week; and is not this way of taking this Committee stage really tantamount to a denial of the pledge that this sort of Bill should have a full Committee stage on the Floor of the House?
Mr. Morrison: This is not a very long Bill, although I agree it is an important Bill, which is why the Committee stage has been taken on the Floor of the House, but when it had had three full days and a Friday, it was not unreasonable to expect that we might have finished the Committee stage. In saying that, I am making no attack on the Conservative Party alone. I am making my observations to the House as a whole, all of whom—on this side as well as on the other side—made their full contribution to the use of the time.
Mr. Henry Strauss: Whatever cause prevented the right hon. Gentleman from being here during the all-night Sitting, has there been anything to stop him from reading HANSARD giving the report of that all-
1508
night Sitting; and, if he has done so, does he realise that no such charge can be brought against the House, or any quarter of it? Does he further realise, in view of his attack upon my right hon. Friend, that it is quite futile for him to seek to vie for the leadership of the Communist Party with the Minister of Fuel and Power?
Mr. Thurtle: Is it not rather unworthy of the best traditions of this House, and extremely unchivalrous, for reference to be made to the absence of my right hon. Friend, when everyone in the House knows the reason for that absence?
Mr. Stanley: As the attack has been made on me, perhaps I should be allowed to explain. We are all aware of the recent illness of the right hon. Gentleman, and we sympathise with him, but he did make an accusation against us and others of wasting the time of the House on the Committee stage of this Bill. Certainly, we on this side of the House took it as an accusation. We quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman could not be here through the all-night Sitting, but we did sit the whole of Friday, and it was because of Friday that we were unable to finish the Bill. We still do not know the reason why it was not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to he present at our Debate on that day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BILL
  [3RD ALLOTTED DAY]
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [13th May] on Consideration of Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee and on recommittal).

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BILL

    CLAUSE 9.—(Supplementary provisions as to development plans.)
    Amendment proposed: In page 9, line 5, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) If as the result of any objections or representations considered, or local inquiry or other hearing held, in connection with a development plan or proposals for amendment of such a plan submitted to or prepared by the Minister under this Part of this Act, the Minister is of opinion that the local planning authority or any other authority or person ought to be consulted before he decides whether to approve or make the plan either with or without modifications, or to amend the plan, as the case may be, he shall consult that authority or person, but shall not be under any obligation to consult any other authority or person, or to afford any opportunity for further objections or representations or to cause any further local inquiry or other hearing to be held."—[The Attorney-General.]
    Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    3.45 P.m.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: This Amendment was moved by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General at a late hour last night, and, in consequence, the report of what he said in moving it is not available for consideration by Members of the House. Therefore, in dealing with his arguments, I have to rely upon my recollection of what he said, without any opportunity of verifying it. As the Parliamentary Secretary said, in one of his rare utterances, in the Standing Committee when this matter was discussed:
    "This matter is invested with some importance."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee D, 1st April, 1947; c. 976.]
    I think that, in fact, the hon. Gentleman understated the importance of the subject. The object of the Amendment, as I understand it, is to alter the existing law with regard to the holding of local inquiries.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross)indicated dissent.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I see the right hon. and learned Gentleman shakes his head, but not very long ago he sought to summarise the existing law on this subject—a law which, in my opinion, has not been altered materially by recent decisions. He said in the Standing Committee—and I think he is right:
    "Under the law as it stands … there may be discussions before any objections have been lodged with any local authority or, indeed, with any other body or person whom the Minister may think it convenient to consult."
    That is not challenged; that is not in issue. He went on to say:
    "Then comes the stage when there is an objection. At that stage there must be no consultation by the Minister with one side in the absence of the other side; nor must there be any consultation between the Minister, after the inquiry and before a decision has been reached, with one side in the absence of the other side."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, Standing Committee D; 1st April, 1947, c. 990.]
    That was the statement of the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the Standing Committee when this question was considered. Now we have to consider an Amendment which provides that, after the holding of a local inquiry, and after the hearing of objections in public, the Minister shall have the right of consulting whom he likes, in secret, without being under any obligation to inform anyone affected of the nature of these decisions. I can well imagine what an uproar there would be in this House if the Government introduced a proposal that a judge, after hearing the evidence in a case, should have the right, by Statute, of consulting whom he liked upon the matter. I, of course, concede that the position of the Minister under this Bill is not exactly the same as the position of a judge, but the Minister has to exercise quasi-judicial functions, and he has to act impartially and fairly. I do not regard it as acting fairly or impartially if, with regard to a particular objection, after that objection is heard, the Minister is at liberty to consult whoever he pleases without any notice to the person making the objection.
    Let me illustrate what might happen it this Amendment were carried. Suppose that the local planning authority wants to include within an area designated as subject to compulsory purchase, a farm on the fringe of the area, or a market garden on the edge of a town. Suppose that the

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    owner of the market garden or farm objects to designation, as he may well do, in the interests of food production or for a variety of reasons. The next stage may be a local public inquiry where the objector can put forward his arguments and objections, and where those objections can be tested. The right hon. Gentleman is then seeking power to go behind the back of that farmer or market gardener. after an inquiry, and consult whom he likes before making his decision on the particular issue, in this hypothetical case as to whether this particular farm should be or should not be included in the designated area. In my view, that is entirely wrong.
    I recognise that when a big area is the subject of a development plan it is too much to ask, where any inquiry takes place and where any consultation takes place after the inquiry, that all those who objected and all those interested in the plan as a whole should be informed about it. That may be asking too much, but at least it is reasonable and sensible that the person particularly' affected, the particular individual—the farmer in the case I have mentioned—should be informed of two things if the Minister wants to have further information about that particular objection after the inquiry is closed, and without reopening the inquiry, which it is always within his power to do. One thing is, that individual ought to be told who is being consulted, and he ought to be told the point on which that consultation is taking place, for this reason: it will then be open to that particular objector to submit to the Minister further observations dealing with that particular point. It that is not provided, it may well be that the decision of the Minister will be influenced one way by information obtained by him as a result of a consultation with an external body—information which may be inaccurate, to which the objector may have a complete answer, and without the Minister being informed at ail of what that answer is.
    I suggest that this really is an astonishing proposal. We had a full discussion upon it in Standing Committee, and I rather anticipated from the course of that discussion that, although the right hon. Gentleman might seek to preserve for himself the right of consultation after holding a local inquiry, it would be subject to the
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    express proviso that in the case where that consultation affected a particular interest, a particular objector, that objector should be informed of the nature of the persons being consulted, and the matter upon which they were being consulted. I hope this matter will be further considered. Unless we can receive a satisfactory assurance upon that point, I am afraid that the limited time of this Report stage will have to be further occupied by a Division upon this extremely important matter.
    Mr. Derek Walker-Smith: As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham Buller) said said, this matter did receive a good deal of discussion in Standing Committee. Of course, that was discussion on a different form of words, and this is the first time that the particular form of words of the Amendment which the learned Attorney-General moved late last night has been under discussion. When this matter was discussed in Standing Committee we on this side of the House made our position clear; and I think I can say with confidence that we are all inexpressibly disappointed that the cogitations of the Minister and of his consultation with the Attorney-General upon these matters has led to so disappointing an Amendment as that which is now under discussion.
    It is, I think, not without significance that the hon. Member for the Drake Division of Plymouth (Mr. Medland)—whom I am glad to see in his place today—said to the Attorney-General:
    "Until I can be assured that the final word rests with the Minister, who is responsible to the House of Commons, I do not propose to accept the agreement, or whatever it may be, which has been come to this morning."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee D, 1st April, 1947: c. 998.]
    —talking, to the Minister if I may say so, very much in the way in which the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) talks to the Minister of Defence. Indeed, the result runs true to form, because what the Attorney-General has now done is to import into the words of his Amendment precisely those words which will make clear that there is power to do the very thing that was doubtful before, and against which we expressed such strong objection.
    What this Amendment will do is, expressly to enable consultation to take

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    place with local authorities or persons behind closed doors, without publicity, after the holding of a local inquiry. That is the position with which we are faced on this Amendment if it is accepted. In Standing Committee the Attorney-General said that he did not like references to natural justice, and I will indulge him so far as to avoid reference to natural justice; however, I cannot but say that consultation with certain parties to an inquiry and not with others, after the inquiry is concluded, and in secret, is a gross violation of all the elementary decencies of judicial procedure. We made it clear in Committee that we did not object to the Minister having consultation before the inquiry, because we could see that there might be occasions on which that might be necessary; and we made it clear that we did not object so much to consultation during the inquiry, although we consider that that would normally be unnecessary and undesirable. But we made it clear that we do object, very strongly indeed, to consultation after inquiry, in the way that is now suggested.
    The Attorney-General gave an undertaking that the whole matter would be considered in the light, amongst other things, of the representations that had been put forward by hon. Members in the course of the discussion in Committee. His method of taking our representations into account is, to say the least, an unhappy one, because his method is to introduce provisions expressly legislating for the very things to which we principally took objection. I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman must found his technique of conciliation on that practised by Rehoboam in the Book of Kings, who said to the unfortunate Israelites, when they asked for a slackening of the rigours of government:
    "… my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions."
    Whatever was the fate of the Israelites, the right hon. Gentleman cannot expect us in this democratic Assembly lightly to acquiesce in this stiffening of the burden. If fresh considerations do arise after the inquiry is closed—and I want to be quite fair about this; I can readily conceive that there may be occasions on which fresh considerations do arise—what is the right procedure to adopt? Quite patently, the right procedure must be to reopen the inquiry, so that if fresh considerations are
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    advanced by some parties they are advanced in public, and other parties are given the elementary right of comment and rebuttal. That is the correct procedure which, I think, should follow from such a case—at any rate, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Daventry has said, in any case in which the interest of any other party is or may be affected by the further considerations which arise.
    There is one last point I want to make on this, because I think it is of substantial importance, and that is in regard to the way in which the Minister must deal with these matters. We have had considerable discussion as to whether or not the Minister is acting judicially in these matters. I find that the position now is one of increasing confusion, and it is right that the country should know whether the Minister acts in a judicial capacity or not. Had this Bill, through its various stages, received a fairer measure of time for consideration, this is one of the things which would have been made clear. What is the position now? The Master of the Rolls, in giving a judicial interpretation in the Plymouth case, said this:
    "The Minister is entitled to act on any information which may come to him in his administrative capacity, and he cannot be compelled to disclose the source of his information. It is erroneous to say that the Minister must act in a quasi-judicial capacity."
    That is the interpretation of the Master of the Rolls of the law as it at present stands under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944. The Minister, on the other hand, speaking in this House on Monday on the recommittal of this Bill said this:
    "The last word does not rest with the local authority but with the Minister, who is bound to act judicially and in the light of the evidence that he gets at the local public inquiry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May. 1947: Vol. 437, c. 1121.]
    The Minister's interpretation of his functions does not seem to square with the interpretation made by the Master of the Rolls.
    4.0 p.m.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross): I wonder if I may help my hon. Friend? The Minister, as I remember it, was correctly stating the law as it was understood on Monday. The hon. Gentleman is stating the law as it was subsequently clarified in the Court of Appeal.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman; because that, I think, actually reinforces the importance of this point. The Minister thought on Monday that he must act judicially; now that he has got the Plymouth judgment he knows he need not act judicially. Lawyers interpret the law; but our function here is to make the law. The first question we have to decide is, whether or not we want the Minister to act judicially, or whether we want him to be exempt from taking a judicial view in these matters. In my view, there is no doubt about this, that the people of this country do not understand the technicalities of the Town and Country Planning Act, but they have an instinctive and inexorable aversion from any procedure which seems to them to violate the decencies of judicial procedure. The fact that the Minister is not obliged to act in a judicial capacity reinforces our view that this Amendment should not go through as it stands, because it increases the possibility of a failure to do justice to people who have been heard in the local inquiry, but whose case may afterwards be disposed of behind closed doors, and without their even knowing about it. I add my most urgent representations to those made by my hon. and learned Friend that the Attorney-General should think again about this. He should ask himself whether it is really in the public interest that this Amendment should go through as it stands, and open the way to a sort of procedure which accords ill with the elementary decencies of judicial proceedings; and which is, in my view, a clear break with the traditions of this free country in these matters.
    Colonel Clarke: I think the Minister is aware that I am not unfriendly to his Department. As a member of a local planning committee I recognise that this Bill contains a great deal to help us. At the same time, I am opposed to this Amendment, because I believe it aggravates an already very unsatisfactory state of affairs regarding representations and local inquiries generally. From time to time the meanings of words change. It appears to me that, since this Government came into office, the meanings of two words, "consultation" and "agreement," have changed. One used to think that "consultation" meant mutual discussion, and willingness to carry out agreed policy.
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    Now it means telling people what one means to do, and with no intention of changing one's decision, whatever they may say. I feel that the result of this Amendment will be to accentuate that difference in the meaning of the word. As regards "agreement," unless people show their disapproval by resigning, or taking some such drastic action, it is now assumed that they agree with what one says. That applies at all levels, and not only to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning. It applies also to Cabinet decisions which affect the Dominions, and in a great number of other directions. That is a deplorable negation of democracy.
    The Minister should remember that, in dealing with local bodies, he is in a position of immense strength, and he should try to avoid doing anything that is an abuse of that strength. The local representatives have a contribution to make, but they cannot make it, if they are in the position of not being allowed to say anything. I heard of an inquiry the other day which went on for over an hour and at which many representations were made; but nothing was said in answer by the Minister's representative, except that those present might smoke
    I think that in these local inquiries, whether they are behind closed doors or open, more information should be given, and a real effort made to get real consultation and real agreement. I feel that this Amendment is retrogressive, particularly the latter part of it. It certainly is not helpful. It will increase the impression that exists very widely now that there is nothing in these inquiries, that there is nothing to be got out of them, that they are a waste of time, and that everything is decided beforehand. If these decisions are to be made behind closed doors, that fact will accentuate such opinions and make the position worse. Therefore, I am against this Amendment.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: I also hope that the right hon. Gentleman and the Attorney-General will consider this matter very carefully again. I think that this Amendment, in the form in which they have put it on the Order Paper, is not only not in the public interest, but is not really in the interest of the right hon. Gentleman and his Department. Let me see how far I can carry all quarters of the House with me

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    in the submission I am making. There are those who think that there should be a public local inquiry in every case. There are others who think there is no such need and that there are cases which can be determined without a public local inquiry. Both those views are perfectly arguable, and I can well understand the right non. Gentleman contending that he should not be bound to have a public local inquiry in every case. I am not going to dispute the justice of that view. The point on which, I suggest, every quarter of the House will agree with me is this—that in the cases where there is a public local inquiry, it should not be a sham, and that those taking part in it should not believe it to be a sham.
    That proposition will command general assent. But what will be the position if, at a public local inquiry, proposals are brought forward which are believed to represent, let us say, proposals that the Minister is to be asked to approve, and those who wish to question those proposals cross-examine those who give evidence in their favour, and believe that their cross-examination has been so damaging that the proposals cannot survive? It is perfectly possible that subsequently facts are brought to the Minister's attention which may make him think that, notwithstanding that cross-examination, the proposals submitted to so much adverse criticism, nevertheless, ought to proceed on the new grounds which have been brought to his attention. The new proposal, or the new reason operating in the mind of the Minister, ought also to be subject to some public inquiry, and the persons who, before, had the opportunity of cross-examination should have that opportunity again.
    I expect the right hon. Gentleman wants to avoid—and I sympathise with him in this—a great deal of delay that might be injurious to the public interest in some of these cases, which are of varying degrees of urgency. In this connection there is one matter not alluded to in the discussion so far, and that is the possibility of an adjournment of the inquiry. If, as a result of the inquiry so far as it had proceeded, the Minister thought that he would like to consult someone, it would not be impossible, and it might be for the convenience of all, that there should be an adjournment in order that the new factors which had
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    come to the Minister's attention might be the subject of full public inquiry, with cross-examination and so on. I can imagine that occasionally the Minister might receive information, even after the closing of a public inquiry. If it dealt with a matter which had been the sub-pect of dispute, examination and cross-examination and the giving of evidence, surely it would be worth while reopening the inquiry, or having a fresh inquiry? If the Minister refuses this, how can he hope that the public and all the parties concerned will continue to place much confidence in these inquiries? They will be told by their legal advisers, "Oh, yes, we may have complete and absolute success at the public local inquiry, but the Minister may later hear of something from the local planning authority, which, in his view, gives an entirely different complexion to the whole case, and there will be no opportunity for you to test it, or make representations about it."
    The Attorney-General intervened, very rightly, just now to explain the difference that had occurred in the position since the right hon. Gentleman spoke on Monday, on account of a subsequent decision of the Court of Appeal. Whatever the position of the right hon. Gentleman, whether he is now under no obligation to act judicially or not, I am perfectly certain that he, or whoever may occupy his office in future, will always wish to act fairly. I do not suggest that if this Amendment were on the Statute Book, the Minister would not attempt to act fairly. The trouble is that the parties who had gone to great trouble to put their case at a local inquiry would not feel that they had been fairly treated, if, notwithstanding anything that had taken place at the public inquiry, the whole result could be altered in view of subsequent representations about which they had no knowledge. Certain matters in town and country planning must obviously be decided by the Minister and not by any court, but then the check on the Minister, as he has said, and we all agree, must be a political check, that is to say, the check of the House of Commons; but the House of Commons would not have knowledge of what had operated in the Minister's mind in those cases where he had apparently completely disregarded the facts proved at a local inquiry. I do not think the proposed machinery is satis-

    1519
    factory to any of the main parties concerned. It is not satisfactory to those who are interested in the subject matter of the inquiry, and it is not satisfactory to the right hon. Gentleman, because he will find himself frequently suspected of acting unfairly; it will not be a satisfactory answer to say, "I have the statutory power to do what I am doing" if, in fact, he has asked for the powers in this Bill. It is unsatisfactory also to the House of Commons. For these reasons, I beg the Government to reconsider their Amendment.
    4.15 p.m.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: In view of the speeches made by hon. Members opposite, I hope the House will not think it inappropriate if I make two or three observations. It would be unfortunate if it were thought that any of us on these benches are less concerned with the interests of justice, and the ordinary decencies of justice, than hon. Members opposite represent themselves to be, and are. Apart from the merits of this Amendment, all will agree that it tends to clarify the law. It renders something clear which at present is obscure, namely, whether or not after there has been a local public inquiry, the Minister may consult with certain people without giving notice to other people of those consultations. Everyone will agree that clarification is a step in the right direction, whatever views we may have as to whether this Amendment is sound or not. It is certainly the responsibility of this House to see that the law is clarified, and that it is not left in that state of obscurity, which has resulted from the decisions in the cases now going through the courts. It is the duty of this House to decide what the law should be in future, so that the public shall know where responsibility lies.
    The hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) went wrong, if I may say so, in trying to draw an unreal analogy between justice as administered in the courts. in disputes between two parties in a civil action, and that administrative justice—for want of a better word—which it is the function of the Minister to exercise in making decisions about matters of the kind we are now considering. We on these benches are no less concerned than hon. Members opposite with justice being done, and we all support what has been said
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    by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H, Strauss), that it is important the public should know that these public inquiries are not a sham but a serious part of the proceedings leading to the Minister's decision. The public should also know that the final responsibility is that of the Minister, having heard the inquiry, and having weighed any other information coming from other sources, whether before the inquiry was held, or after. It is the responsibility of the Minister who in turn is responsible to this House to act fairly, properly and reasonably, in the interests of all parties, and of the locality, in the decisions that he has to take. For these reasons I support the Amendment.
    The Attorney-General: As the hon. Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher) has made so clear, the fundamental error into which hon. Members opposite have fallen in this matter is in assuming that the Minister is here discharging a judicial function, and that these inquiries are in the nature of judicial proceedings. It has always been my contention, as I know it has been the contention of those who have preceded me, that that is not the law. It has now been held in the Court of Appeal that that is not the law, and the purpose of this Clause is to put it beyond all possible doubt that it is not the law. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) asked what the House would say if a judge, after trying a case, were entitled to consult whom he pleased behind the backs of the parties concerned. That is the whole point. That is the position in regard to a judge. A judge has to close his mind to any knowledge he may already have, to any information which he may have gathered from previous cases, or any policy which he may have formed in the light of previous experience. He has to decide the matter before him on the evidence, and on the evidence alone. That is the position of a judge. The duty of a judge is not to ascertain absolute truth, but to decide what is established by the evidence which the parties choose to put before him in a particular case. The Minister is not a judge, nor does he occupy a quasi-judicial position, as Members opposite have suggested. In Standing Committee I indicated a certain view about this matter—and I am coming

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    back to it, because nothing I said then is inconsistent with what I am saying now. I was accepting, loyally, the recent decision given by Mr. Justice Henn Collins on these matters. The law has since been clarified, and in the sense which I and my predecessors have always contended. The learned Master of the Rolls said:
    "To say that on the evidence given at the public inquiry it was impossible that the Minister should be satisfied, would be to make the Court, and not the Minister, the authority to decide what was requisite. The Minister was entitled to act on any information which might come to him in his administrative capacity, and he could not be compelled to disclose the source of his information. It was erroneous to say that the Minister must act in a quasi-judicial capacity. His power to make the order could not be controlled by the Court. If it had been shown that he had acted beyond the limits of his statutory powers or had acted in bad faith, the position would have been different. As it was the appeal would be allowed with costs."
    Ministers, in dealing with matters of this kind, are acting as administrators. The Minister, in this case, is already under a statutory obligation, enacted by this House, in 1943, to secure consistency and continuity in planning as a matter of national policy. In our view—and this, I believe, to be the true legal position; it will not be altered by the Bill, but will be put beyond all doubt—the duty of a Minister is to consider, in good faith, any representation or any objection which may be put before him. In that matter he is, of course, subject to the control of the courts.
    If he acts in bad faith, and does not consider objections as an honest Minister ought to do, then the person who is aggrieved by that can go to the court and question the conduct of the Minister. But, subject to his acting in good faith, he acts as a Minister responsible to Parliament. He is not a judicial officer, acting within some narrow lines of judicial procedure. He must be free—after holding an inquiry, if he decides so to do, before acting on what is an administrative, and not judicial basis—to consult with outside bodies and, not least, with those bodies which are expressly charged by Statute with responsibility for planning matters. These are questions which the Minister has to decide on broad grounds of public policy. That is his Ministerial function. A Minister does not suddenly adopt the cloak of a judge because he voluntarily decides, in order to inform himself the more fully of
    1522
    the matters in issue, and to investigate the strength of the objections which may have been raised, to hold a public inquiry. He is the Minister who is availing himself of the machinery of a public inquiry in order that he may be better informed in carrying out his duties. In the exercise and discharge of those duties, he is responsible to Parliament, and it is to Parliament, and not the courts, and still less to individual objectors, that he must answer if, in good faith he consults outside persons or bodies, or avails himself of sources of information.
    I ask Members opposite to bear in mind that we have just as great a regard for judicial functions, and the administration of law and justice in this country, as they have. To attempt to assimilate judicial and administrative functions not only exposes the administrator to forms and procedures which are incompatible with efficient and expeditious administration—I point to the Stevenage case, in which no final result will be achieved for nine or ten months after the making of the Order, and to the Plymouth case—but also exposes him to embarrassments and ideas which are quite foreign to the practice of justice in this country. For instance, a Minister may act as a judge in what is, in effect, his own cause. It is completely artificial to talk of Ministers who are under a statutory obligation to make or confirm these orders as acting in a quasi-judicial capacity. To confuse the two functions, judicial and administrative, does not enhance the prestige of the judicial ideal, or promote the success of administration.
    It has been suggested that there has been some inconsistency in the attitude we are taking up as compared with the attitude I took up in Standing Committee. I should like to make it clear that that is not so. I said, in Standing Committee:
    "The Government will reconsider the Clause.… but I add this, that we shall adhere to the final principle that, at the end, the Minister must be left free to arrive at his decision after having regard not only to the evidence which may have been adduced at the inquiry, but to overriding considerations of public policy, for the administration of which he will be responsible, not to the courts, but to Parliament. We take the view that it is quite impossible to put the Minister, who is administering an Act of Parliament of this kind, into a position of a judge who must decide on the evidence before him, completely closing his mind to considerations of public policy and matters of that kind, and deciding simply on the evidence before him."

    1523
    Then I made a reference to natural justice, not that I objected to the use of that expression, but because Lord Shaw entertained the strongest objection to it being used in connection with administrative matters of this kind. I said:
    "I hope … that all these matters will be considered, having regard to the decisions which will be ultimately arrived at by the Court of Appeal."
    We intelligently anticipated what the decision there would be likely to be. In my view, supported by the decision of the Court of Appeal, this Clause does nothing except put beyond doubt the existing law. It is for the House to decide whether it wants to alter the existing law.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The right hon. and learned Gentleman also said in the Standing Committee:
    "I made it quite clear that if we did accept the Amendment we would not commit ourselves in any way to the provisions which we should put down on Report stage for consultation, … or as to the necessity of communicating such consultation to the objector."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee D; c. 993–995.]
    I particularly stressed the desirability of informing the objector affected, of any consultation, and of the substance of the consultation that had taken place with the local authority. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, in the course of his interesting speech, did not say one word about informing any particular objector.
    4.30 p.m.
    The Attorney-General: I do not want to leave the matter in any doubt at all. In the Committee I made it clear, after the hon. and learned Gentleman had made the point about informing objectors of subsequent consultations, that we could not accept any commitment as to the need of communicating such consultation to the objectors. I said that we would consider the whole situation, in the light of whatever decision was eventually given by the Court of Appeal in regard to it. Having considered the decision of the Court of Appeal, we were confirmed and fortified in the view which we originally took that it is not consistent with good administration to reopen these matters.
    These inquiries are for the purpose of enabling Ministers to inform themselves of the facts—to enable Ministers to ascer-
    1524
    tain and canvass the weight of any particular objection or criticism. Having held the inquiry and informed themselves as fully as Ministers think necessary by that means, they must be entitled to go to other sources of information. If it appears then to a Minister, from fresh information subsequent to the public inquiries, that it would be desirable in the public interest to hold a further inquiry in order to get still more information, he is, of course, at perfect liberty to do so. We cannot agree to the Minister being put under an obligation to go on re-opening inquiries—going back to the objectors perhaps time after time, because subsequent to considering some particular—point, he receives some information from some outside body that has some bearing upon it. There must be some finality about these matters, and the Minister must be left free to obtain such information as he thinks expedient in the public interest, whether by another inquiry or not, but without being under any obligation to disclose to anyone, except to this House, what that information is or from whom he has obtained it.
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: We are Obliged to the learned Attorney-General for the exposition which he has given of the existing law. I do not dispute what he has said on this strictly legal point. What he has told us is that this Amendment, which is now being moved by the Government, is not really an Amendment to the existing body of the law, but is merely declaratory of the legal position as the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the Government see it. I do not pretend to deal with this matter from the strictly legal point of view, but I think that the Government have acted very unwisely and maladroitly to introduce something which the ordinary man may regard as different from the statute law as it stands. The procedure of public inquiries has been embodied in Statutes for a long time, and has been "run in" during many years of operation, and there is in the mind of the ordinary citizen a certain conception of how it works. The ordinary man regards a public inquiry as something in the nature of an arbitration. The niceties of what is judicial and what is not are not for him, but although he may be ignorant about the law, he has an acute sense of what is fair and what is unfair. Whatever the law may be, it is thoroughly

    1525
    bad politics to introduce an Amendment at this stage into a respected form of procedure, which gives the ordinary man the opinion that there will be some work behind the scenes to which he is not permitted to be a party.
    I think that it is unwise to do that. Nothing can prevent a Minister in the exercise of his administrative task from obtaining all the information that he requires, nor would we seek to do so. He has many channels of communication. If his Department is only half efficient, there is nothing about a particular matter of this sort that he cannot ascertain. To suggest, as this Amendment does, that he shall have power not only to obtain information, but to consult one of the parties to the case after the case is over is, I think, extremely unwise. We use the word "consultation" in Statutes when we want to make sure that one Minister is brought in on a question that concerns him. I remember in another Bill my agricultural friends saying that the Minister of Agriculture should be consulted. That does not mean that the Minister who is asked to consult with a person has to obtain information from that person. It means that the person is to be taken into consultation. That is a very different thing from merely obtaining additional information after an inquiry.
    As I see it, public local inquiries, as hitherto understood in this country, serve two useful functions. If there is a dispute between two parties, one may be a local authority and the other a citizen, the Minister orders a public local inquiry. What are the functions of that public local inquiry? As I understand it they are twofold. One is that the Minister shall have an opportunity of ascertaining the truth of the matter complained about, in the only way that truth can be ascertained, or its approximation ascertained, and that is by the two parties who are contending in the matter being confronted with each other, so that a statement of one can be challenged by the other. The evidence given is not merely ex parte but is subject to the cross-testimony and cross-examination of the party who disagrees with it. It is by that process that the issues between the parties are narrowed down, and finally, when the inquiry has gone the requisite amount of time, the issues are presented to the Minister, who has to make a decision in
    1526
    a narrowed form, supported by the evidence on each side of the question, and with this body of evidence, checked and tested by cross-examination from the hostile party, he is in a superior position to arrive at a wise and just decision.
    That is one but only one object of a public inquiry. The other object is in my judgment equally important. Our people, as a rule, have a great respect for the law and the observance of ceremonial proceedings. They are frequently aggrieved by actions of a Government Department, but if they have the sense that they can appear in the open against their adversaries, before an impartial person, and be given a full chance of stating their case before their friends and neighbours, and of cross-examining what is said against their case by the other side, then, although the ultimate decision may be adverse to their desires, they have at least the feeling that all has been done in the open, and that they have had a fair deal. That is the second most important object of a public inquiry. It not only enables the truth to be ascertained, but it spreads through the ramifications of administration an atmosphere of impartiality and equality. I think myself that it would have been worth a great deal to have maintained that.
    I think that these new proceedings, stating that the Minister may, after an inquiry is over, consult with one of the parties but is to be under no obligation to test what the other party says by referring to the party against him, whose testimony is uttered in secret, not only will muddy the wells of truth, but will certainly give the person adversely affected by the ultimate decision, a suspicion as to the equity with which he has been treated in the matter. Whatever the strict law may be, speaking not as a lawyer but as a politician, I say that the Amendment which the Government are now asking the House to adopt is extremely maladroit.
    The Minister of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Silkin): I am not going to take part in this quasi-judicial dispute but I think it important to point out what the Amendment seeks to do, because there is some misunderstanding about it, and I believe some innocent misrepresentation of the extent of what it proposes. It does not deal primarily with the relationship

    1527
    between the local authority and an individual. In all the ordinary forms of inquiry, the machinery which the right hon. Gentleman says has been "run in" will remain, for this Amendment does not seek to deal with that. It seeks to deal with an entirely new situation, the making of a development plan or the modification of that plan, and with nothing else. The Amendment says that the object of the public inquiry is to enable the Minister to approve of the best possible plan. He is not adjudicating on individuals nor on the relations of individuals to the local authorities, but is concerning himself with the development plan or any modification of it.
    I agree instantly that the plan may affect individuals but that is not his concern at the public inquiry. He is concerned to see what is the best plan and how it will possibly affect the community as a whole. As a result of an Amendment, which was discussed yesterday, the Minister has to be informed of the estimated cost of carrying out a development plan or any modification, but he is not, at this inquiry, concerned with the relations with individuals. That comes on at some other stage of the public acquisition and the contention is—and I think it is right—that in considering what kind of development plan the Minister has to approve, every source of information should be available to him. It is conceded that the Minister can get information from any party before the inquiry. I do not know what any hon. or right hon. Gentleman opposite would think if a judge on the eve of a hearing had dinner with one of the parties to a dispute, but apparently it is considered that a Minister may do it, and do it quite properly as long as it is before the inquiry. I see no difference in getting the information from any of the parties either before or after the inquiry.
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: Consulting with one of the parties.
    Mr. Silkin: Yes, consulting to get information. In the carrying out of the machinery of this Amendment any Minister will act fairly. Of course, if he feels, as the result of any information which he gets, that he ought to communicate with the other side and with one of the objectors, I take it that the Minister, whether he comes from this side of the
    1528
    House or from the other, will have a sufficiently high sense of his public duties not to act improperly or unfairly. The mere fact of getting the further information, would not necessarily involve reopening the inquiry as was suggested, or even communicating with the other side.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: I am not raising the question of fairness or unfairness but the question of wisdom. I will give an example to get the right hon. Gentleman's reaction. Suppose one of the disputed matters were whether or not it was possible to get an adequate water supply where the development was to take place. and the right hon. Gentleman decided that it would be wise to approach one of the parties for their views after the inquiry had been closed, when that view could not be tested by cross-examination by those who had taken an opposite view Would that be a correct step?
    4.45 p.m.
    Mr. Silkin: The actual example given by the hon. and learned Member is impossible under this Amendment. It could not possibly arise in determining the nature of a development plan. Why would the hon. and learned Gentleman allow the Minister to go to one of the parties and get all the information before the inquiry but not after?
    Mr. Strauss: The right hon. Gentleman asks why, and the answer is that if the right hon. Gentleman went before the inquiry then somebody would put forward at the inquiry what was told to the right hon. Gentleman and there would be an opportunity for cross-examination.
    Mr. Silkin: Not at all. The person conducting the inquiry is not under an obligation to put forward views. He is there to hear objections. He is not a party to the dispute. This development plan is put forward by a local authority, but it would be quite right for the Minister to go and make all sorts of investigations and inquiries about the proposed development plan immediately before the inquiry but not after it. That seems to me to make nonsense of it. The parties behind the making of a development plan should be in a position to offer information and the Minister should be able to get it where he can, but he is bound to act fairly. I am satisfied that any Minister would act fairly and would not merely arrive at a biased point of view or one set view without

    1529
    taking the precaution to find out what any other view is if it had not already emerged at the inquiry. The real point which I want to make is that. this Amendment is restricted to the making of the development plans or the modifications of them, and does not relate to the much wider field of local inquiries arising out of the relationship between the local authority and the individual.
    Sir Patrick Hannon: This Bill, of course, appears to the ordinary man in the street as an appalling Measure with all its technical and legal implications. I listened with great respect to the statement made by the Attorney-General, and, although it was prima facie a learned exposition of the state of the law, it does not remove the feeling in the minds of many of us, that if a local inquiry took place in relation to a development plan, some further conversations and negotiations would take place with the Minister before he decided. An essential quality of the people of this country has always been respect for the law, but if people feel that something takes place between the Minister who is finally responsible for the determination of a plan, and the people who produce it,
    that removes respect for the law and the people also lose respect for the administration for what that Minister is responsible. If the inquiry takes place in open court and cross-examination is possible, that makes a difference, but by the system suggested in this Amendment disturbance would be created in the minds of the people. In a Measure of this kind there ought to be no feeling of anything unfair taking place, after a public inquiry had examined all the points and the various aspects. I felt, when this point was raised upstairs, that the Minister would make a concession to meet the representations which had been put to him there. I find, however, that he is as adamant on the subject as ever. He knows my personal regard for him, and for a Minister, whose duty it is to confiscate the property of the people of this country, I think he is an amiable person. In these particular circumstances, however, he is not acting, in his Ministerial capacity, in such a manner as to maintain confidence in the law of this country.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 246; Noes, 122.

    Division No. 209.]

    AYES.

    [4.52 p.m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Chater, D.

    Gooch, E. G.

    Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Goodrich, H. E.

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Cocks, F. S.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Collindridge, F.

    Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

    Allighan, Garry

    Colman, Miss G. M.

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Grey, C. F.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Corbet, Mrs. F. K (Camb'well, N.W.)

    Grierson, E.

    Attewell, H. C.

    Cove, W. G.

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Austin, H. Lewis

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Guy, W. H.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

    Ayles, W. H.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

    Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Hardy, E. A.

    Balfour, A.

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Harrison, J.

    Barstow, P. G.

    Deer, G.

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Barton, C.

    Dobbie, W.

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Battley, J. R.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Bechervaise, A E

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Hewitson, Captain M.

    Benson, G.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Hicks, G.

    Beswick, F.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

    Hobson, C. R.

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Edelman, M.

    Holman, P.

    Binns, J.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Edwards, John (Blackburn)

    House, G.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

    Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

    Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

    Irving, W. J.

    Bramall, E. A.

    Fairhurst, F.

    Janner, B.

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Jay, D. P. T.

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Brown, George (Belper)

    Forman, J. C.

    Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

    Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

    Foster, W. (Wigan)

    John, W.

    Buchanan, G.

    Freeman, Peter (Newport)

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

    Burke, W. A.

    Gallacher, W,

    Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

    Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

    Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Keenan, W.

    Chamberlain, R. A.

    Gilzean, A.

    Kenyon, C.

    Champion, A. J.

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    King, E. M.

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

    Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brantford)

    Stephen, C.

    Kinley, J.

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Kirkwood, D

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Lang, G.

    Paling, Will T, (Dewsbury)

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Lavers, S.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

    Parker, J.

    Symonds, A. L.

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Parkin, B. T.

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Leslie, J. R.

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Levy, B. W.

    Peart, Capt. T. F.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Lewis, T. (Southampton)

    Piratin, P.

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Popplewell, E.

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Lyne, A. W.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

    McAdam, W.

    Porter, G. (Leeds)

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    McAllister, G.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Pryde, D. J.

    Tiffany, S.

    McGhee, H G

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Titterington, M. F.

    Mack, J. D.

    Ranger, J.

    Tolley, L,

    McKay, J. (Wallsend)

    Rees-Williams, D. R.

    Vernon, Maj. W. F

    McKinley, A. S.

    Reeves, J.

    Viant, S. P.

    Maclean, N. (Govan)

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Walkden, E.

    McLeavy, F.

    Rhodes, H.

    Walker, G. H.

    Macpherson, T. (Romford)

    Ridealgh, Mrs. M

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Robens, A.

    Warbey W. N

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Watson, W. M.

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

    Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Sargood, R.

    Weitzman, D.

    Marshall, F. (Brightside)

    Scollen, T.

    Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

    Medland, H. M

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Sharp, Granville

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

    Messer, F.

    Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Wigg, Col. G. E

    Middleton, Mrs. L

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wilkes, L.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Shurmer, P.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Mitchison, G R

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

    Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

    Monslow, W.

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Montague, F.

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Moody, A. S

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Wills, Mrs. E. A.

    Morley, R.

    Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

    Wise, Major F. J

    Mort, D. L.

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    Woodburn, A.

    Moyle, A.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Woods, G. S

    Murray, J- D.

    Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

    Wyatt, W.

    Nally, W.

    Snow, Capt. J. W.

    Yates, V. F.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Soskice, Maj. Sir F

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Sparks, J. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Stamford, W.

    Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.

    NOES.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Armagh)

    Fletcher, W. (Bury)

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Amory, D. Heathcote

    Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

    Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Morrison, Rt Hon. W. S. (C'nc'ster)

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Gage, C.

    Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E

    Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

    Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

    Neven-Spence, Sir B

    Bennett, Sir P.

    Gammans, L. D.

    Nicholson, G.

    Birch, Nigel

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Nield, B. (Chester)

    Boothby, R

    Gruffydd, Prof. W. J.

    Nutting, Anthony

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

    Orr-Ewing, I. L

    Braithwaite Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

    Harvey, Air-Comdre, A. V.

    Peake, Rt. Hon. O

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col, W.

    Head, Brig A. H,

    Pickthorn, K.

    Brown, W. J. (Rugby)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Poole, O. B- S. (Oswestry)

    Butcher, H. W.

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'la'r)

    Hollis, M. C.

    Raikes, H. V.

    Byers, Frank

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Ramsay, Maj. S.

    Carson, E.

    Hope, Lord J.

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Challen, C.

    Howard, Hon. A.

    Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

    Clarke, Col, R. S.

    Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Jarvis, Sir J.

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

    Crowder, Capt. John E.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

    Cuthbert, W. N.

    Lipson, D. L.

    Smithers, Sir W

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    Low, Brig. A. R. W.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

    Digby, S. W.

    Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Dodds-Parker, A. D

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Maclay, Hon. J. S.

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Drewe, C.

    MacLeod, J.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T, (Richmond)

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Studholme, H. G.

    Duthie, W. S.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Eccles, D. M.

    Manningham-Buller, R. E.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Marsden, Capt, A.

    Teeling, William

    Erroll, F. J.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Thorneycroft, G E. P. (Monmouth)

    1532

    1533

    Thornton-Kemsley, C.N.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

    York, C.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Ward, Hon. G. R.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Commander Agnew and

    Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Lieut.-Colonel Thorp.

    5.0 p.m.
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 9, line 14, at the end, to insert:
    "(4) In the application of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945. to any Order made in pursuance of paragraph (c) of the proviso to Subsection (3) of Section five of this Act, any requirements imposed by regulations under this Section with respect to the publication of notices and the consideration of objections in relation to the development plan shall be deemed for the purposes of Section two of that Act to be requirements with respect to proceedings preliminary to the making of the Order."
    This is really a drafting matter. Under Section 2 and the First Schedule of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act of 1945, where it is proposed to make an Order which is subject to special Parliamentary procedure, certain preliminary steps have to be gone through first unless the Statute under which the Order is made prescribes preliminary proceedings of a similar kind. Under Clause 9 of the present Bill, certain preliminary proceedings will be prescribed before the approval of a development plan, and it will not he until all these have been complied with that any question of making a special procedure Order—for instance, an Order in the case of the land of a local authority, or land belonging to the National Trust under Clause 5 (3) (c)—will arise. Unless the provisions which are the subject of the present Amendment are included, it might consequently be necessary to go through the preliminary procedure all over again. The Amendment is intended to make it clear that where the necessity for a special procedure Order arises under Clause 5 (3) (c), the preliminary requirements under Clause 5 generally shall be deemed to be preliminary requirements for the purpose of the 1945 Act.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 9, line 30, to leave out from "Minister," to the end of line 31.
    After the Crown Proceedings Bill which is at present before Parliament has been passed into law, as we expect with some confidence it will be, there will exist no special rights or preferences in regard to Crown debts, and this reference will consequently serve no useful purpose. Such
    1534
    expenses as are recoverable will be recoverable by the ordinary methods open to all persons for the recovery of debts in the courts.
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: I merely wish to say that we raised this point in the Standing Committee, and I am very glad the Government have come round to this point of view. We support the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 10.—(Obligation to obtain permission for development.)
    Amendment made: In page 9, line 42, leave out "and," and insert "or."—[Mr. Silkin.]
    Mr. Silkin: I beg to move, in page 10, line 4, at the end, to insert:
    "(c) the carrying out by any local authority or statutory undertakers of any works for the purpose of inspecting, repairing or renewing any sewers, mains, pipes, cables or other apparatus, including the breaking open of any street or other land for that purpose."
    This new paragraph (c) sets out the operations which will not rank as development.
    Mr. Gage: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, after "of," to insert "laying down."
    There is an important omission from this Amendment. As the Minister has moved it, without the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling)—which I have just moved—it would exclude from the definition of "development," the maintenance or repair of any pipes or works on the roads by any local authority or statutory undertaker, but it would not exclude the laying down of pipes by such a local authority or statutory undertaker. This is an omission on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. When this matter was discussed in Standing Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham moved an Amendment of this nature, and on that occasion the right hon. Gentleman said that he was willing to accept the principle. The matter with which my hon. Friend was then concerned covered a statutory undertaker who not

    1535
    only wanted to inspect, repair or maintain pipes in a road, but wanted to lay them down. The right hon. Gentleman knows that there are cases where undertakers are under an obligation to lay down pipes. For instance, I understand that gas companies are under an obligation to lay down connecting pipes from the main to consumers' premises, and it would seem quite wrong, and would put them in an impossible position, if work of that kind was classed as a development for which permission had to be obtained. It would involve delays which would be very unfortunate for the community. The whole House knows the desirability of securing piped water supplies all over the countryside, and it would appear that if the proposed Amendment were accepted as it stands, any statutory undertaker who desires to put down a pipe will have to seek permission under Clause 10. It is because I think there is an omission that I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment to the Amendment.
    Mr. Silkin Mr. Silkin rose—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): Before the Amendment to the Amendment can be discussed, it must be seconded.
    Mr. Gammans: I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
    Mr. Silkin: The omission of the words "laying down" was deliberate. The intention is that until the whole question of the breaking open of streets has been dealt with—and it is the intention of the Ministry of Transport to deal with it—there should be a measure of control. I do not think it will involve any hardship or difficulty. Complete freedom to go into any street and break it open to carry out works without any question at all ought not to be tolerated, or at any rate it ought to be dealt with comprehensively, and it is because there is an intention to deal with the breaking open of streets separately that those words were omitted.
    Mr. Charles Williams: The right hon. Gentleman says it is the intention of the Ministry of Transport to deal with this matter, but not, I take it, under this Bill. That raises a very awkward position, because here is an example of
    1536
    piecemeal legislation. Anyone who has travelled about the country must know that there is hopeless confusion between Government Departments in these matters. Here we are postponing this very important question to be dealt with on some other occasion. This way of approaching the position seems unsatisfactory. After what my hon. Friend has said in moving his Amendment to the proposed Amendment I should have thought that at some time during the passage of the Bill this point could be made clear so that the processes referred to will not be held up. If the Ministry of Transport say there is some difficulty about it, it is a pity the Minister of Transport is not here to give us information on the matter.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The effect of the deliberate omission to which the Minister referred will be a liability upon anyone laying cables and things of that sort to pay a development charge. If the Amendment to the Amendment were accepted, there would be no such liability. Is that not the position?
    Mr. Silkin: I cannot imagine the value of land being enhanced by breaking open a street.
    Amendment to the proposed Amendment negatived.
    Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
    5.15 p.m.
    Mr. G. Lang: I beg to move, in page 10, line 15, at the end, to insert:
    "The temporary use of land and the erection of moveable structures thereon by a person who is the proprietor of a travelling circus, roundabout, amusement fair, stall or store (not being a pedlar, hawker or costermonger) for the purpose of his business."
    I move this Amendment on behalf of a large and important body of people, who are of great value to the community, and who are anxious about their position under the Bill. They are the showmen with temporary and movable structures which they take round and, from time to time, put on land where fairs have not previously been held. When they go to a regular ground they are already protected. Under the Bill they will have to obtain permission, and the owner of the land will be liable to pay development charges under Part V. That will mean that the owner will be unlikely to allow

    1537
    the use of his land. This is a serious matter for a very large number of these tradespeople. Under the law, showmen do not have to obtain permission from the local authority for a stay of less than 20 days, but it appears that under the Bill that principle will go. Although the planning authority will not take action under Clause 21 in respect of a period up to 21 days, the owner will still be liable for development charges, and will therefore be unwilling to allow the use of his land.
    Without an Amendment of this nature showmen will be in a very serious position under the Bill. Many of them are subject to sudden changes of plan, by reason of bad weather, local epidemics, diseases, and things of that sort. I need not stress the great value of their work to the community. They give a great deal of innocent and necessary fun and recreation. Just now, when young men are returning from the Forces and entering the business, it is desirable that they should have as much encouragement and as little impediment as possible. I have the honour to be honorary chaplain to the Showmen's Guild, and I know that they do splendid work. I might be permitted to say that in some respects their business is not altogether divorced from that of this ancient Court of Parliament. Exhibitions of tightrope-walking and even of acrobatics are familiar in this business as in that. I hope that my Amendment will receive sympathy from the Minister.
    Mr. McAllister: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I shall not use any additional argument. except to say that if the Minister can see his way to accept the Amendment, or can find some other way of covering the point therein suggested, it will be a great tribute to a group of people who have rendered signal service to the cause of town and country planning. I say that deliberately. The showmen's organisation and their newspaper "World's Fair" have time and again, in the past 50 years, fought the battle for the preservation of our commons and ancient rights of way. It would be a fully merited tribute to them if the Minister accepted the Amendment.
    Mr. Silkin: The mover and seconder of the Amendment have asked me to regard it with sympathy. I do regard it sympathetically, but they are asking too
    1538
    much. They are asking that there should be no control whatever over the temporary use of any land in the future, in respect of travelling circuses, roundabouts and so on. In spite of the great services to the cause of planning given in the past by the showmen, to accept the Amendment would not be rendering a service to future planning. The use of land for this purpose is a very definite use. I would be the last to say that it is unnecessarily, in all cases, an undesirable use, but even the honorary chaplain to the guild must admit that there might be cases of undesirable use of certain sites. The purpose of the Bill is to control such use. The Bill provides protection for sites which have been in use in the past. It will he possible to safeguard future sites by means of a development scheme. I believe that the organisations for which the hon. Members have spoken, will be satisfied with the assurance that those sites will be covered as far as possible by the development schemes—that is to say, development schemes made by local authorities and approved by the Minister to give exemption to the particular sites, in respect of which it will not be necessary for approval to be sought. As regards other sites it will be necessary. I should not be discharging my duty if I gave carte blanche to showmen to go anywhere they liked in the future, without any control whatever. I hope that my hon. Friends will be satisfied with this assurance.
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: I am not quite sure that the Minister made out his case. I do not think he was justified in saying that the Amendment asked for carte blanche. I do not think it does. It is obvious that such matters can be controlled, and ought to be controlled by regulations made for the purpose, just as markets can be controlled by by-laws and other regulations. I seriously question whether it is appropriate to control this use of sites by machinery under Part III. Those provisions are to control the development of land. That is their title and their purpose. I seriously question whether it is appropriate to describe the temporary use of land for an amusement park and for erecting roundabouts, for periods of less than 28 days, as a development of the land. It seems to me that it is rather going outside the ordinary use of language, and that whilst good administration would obviously demand

    1539
    that these matters should not be without regulation, it might equally demand that such administrative arrangements as were desirable, should be made under some other Section of some other Act. I cannot help feeling that there is substance in the complaint that this type of machinery is not appropriate to temporary erections for periods of for much less than 28 days. I feel that the right hon. Gentleman might reconsider his attitude towards this Amendment, which has not been put forward in unreasonable terms, and was not, I believe, replied to by him in any hostile spirit. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether other machinery might not be more appropriate.
    Mr. C. Williams: I support this Amendment. I think that it is a human and natural Amendment and that these words ought to be inserted somewhere in this Bill. Both the mover and the seconder of the Amendment put forward their case, not from a high Ministerial point of view, but from the natural, human point of view which appeals to hon. Members such as myself. After all, these fairs have gone on in this country for a long time and are amusements which are looked forward to by children and a lot of innocent people. Nobody could possibly accuse either of the two Ministers concerned with this Bill of being entirely innocent, and they are not the kind of persons whom one would see at a fun fair. They certainly want something grimmer than that. The Minister intimated that, at some time in the future, this matter might possibly be dealt with, but anybody watching the right hon. Gentleman and listening to him would realise that there was a complete and utter lack of sympathy on his part with this kind of amusement. Although he did not say so, he obviously regards fun fairs as nasty, noisy, ugly and crude, and as things which are dotted about the country appearing here today and there tomorrow, and without any of that order and planning which so delight his heart. It is quite obvious that the idea of fun fairs was a thousand miles away from his pedantic heart. As hon. Members of all parties may be in favour of such an Amendment, why not take this matter to a Division, and thus show that, on this point, at any rate a very strong case has been made out? On the other hand, there is, I think, one slight defect in the
    1540
    Amendment. I am not sure whether the words "stall or store" are not rather too wide. Why should pedlars, hawkers or costermongers be ruled out? After all, those people perform a very useful service and, to my mind, the costermonger should certainly not have been excluded. I hope that we shall have a chance of dividing on this Amendment, and of showing that there is a great deal of humanity in this House.
    Mr. Gallacher: I always thought from the appearance and manner of the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) that he had never known what it was to be young. I am certain that very few people will agree with him that the travelling fair is a general nuisance. [HON. MEMBERS: "He did not say so."] In the days of my boyhood there was nothing so welcome as a travelling fair. I think right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench should try to remember their boyhood days, and should' give this Amendment sympathetic. consideration. I suggest, however, that travelling fairs should not and would not come under these development charges. I would like to see this Amendment inserted elsewhere in the Bill. Subsection (2) says:
    "In this Act, except where the context otherwise requires, the expression 'development' means the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operations in, on, Over or under land, and the making of any material change in the use of any buildings or other land."
    The question of material change always comes into the matter, and I am certain that no one would suggest that a material change would be made in the land if a travelling fair or a roundabout or two were on it for a w eek at, say, Whitsun, and then went somewhere else. Nobody could suggest that that would be a material change, so far as the development of the land was concerned. In normal circumstances, these travelling fairs would not come under the terms of this Bill, but, as hon. Members know, when one gets official persons knocking around, one never knows what they are going to do. The trouble is that some of our Ministers, forgetful of their responsibilities, do not always choose Labour men and women as official persons. They sometimes choose from the ranks of the Tories, and when a hard-faced Tory becomes an official person,

    1541
    one never knows who will suffer in consequence. In order to avoid any suffering which might be caused by the wrong choice on the part of the Minister, it would be very good—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to proceed any further with that argument, which is not in Order.
    Mr. Gallacher: I was going to say, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the Minister would help himself and those who, as the mover of the Amendment said, have given good service to the community in times past, if he would accept this Amendment. It would not in any way alter the character of his Bill, or the development charges he is going to make.
    Mr. Gammans: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment was satisfied with the answer he received from the Minister. It seemed to me that the Minister did not really deal with the main point put forward. The hon. Gentleman did not suggest—nor do I—that fun fairs and circuses should be allowed to set up all over the place. My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) pointed out that under other Acts, in fact, they could be controlled. The hon. Gentleman said there seemed to be a danger that fairs and circuses would be prevented from going on to land which they did not normally occupy, if owing to floods or some other occurrences they had to make a change because owners of land, who would normally raise no objection to them, might now have some hesitation in allowing them for fear of attracting a development charge. That seemed to be the relevant point put forward by the hon. Gentleman, but it was not answered by the Minister. I hope that the Government are not going to be unsympathetic to this Amendment, and I sugest that, even if we have not enough bread, we should have sufficient circuses.
    5.30 p.m.
    Mr. McKie: I hesitate to intervene on a Bill which deals only with England and Wales as I am a Scottish Member, but as the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has made several speeches on the recommittal stage and on the Report stage, I feel that my intervention may not be unappreciated by my hon. Friends on this side. I should like to associate myself, for once in a while,
    1542
    with nearly every word the hon. Member for West Fife said, but I totally dissent from his interpretation of the speech of the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), because if the hon. Gentleman had listened to or been able to hear the speech—I do not say that offensively—he would have realised that the hon. Member for Torquay was not exhibiting himself to the House as a killjoy. Far from it. He was urging the Minister to soften his hard heart and to realise that by refusing to accept this Amendment he was merely carrying on the worst spirit of the Cromwellian period in this country. By refusing to accept this Amendment, he is refusing to grant travelling showmen or circus men and others the certainty of knowing where they stand under this great Town and Country Planning Bill, this Socialistic regimentation by His Majesty's present Ministers.
    I sincerely hope that, on reflection, the right hon. Gentleman will realise that this Amendment is in his own best interests. He has been urged by two hon. Gentlemen sitting behind him to allow this to circus proprietors and travelling showmen—I do not use the phrase in any invidious sense—and he is refusing, by his obduracy, to give them the certainty of knowing where they stand. I agree with the hon. Member for Torquay that the Amendment is perhaps too widely phrased. It might be somewhat out of place to include pedlars, hawkers and costermongers, but it is desirable to include circus proprietors and travelling showmen, who provide a very great deal of innocent amusement for members of the public generally whether they belong to any political party or none. I very much hope that the Minister will reconsider his decision, and, if he does not, it will give me very great pleasure to go into the Lobby in support of the Amendment. I hope that the mover and seconder of the Amendment will act as Tellers. The only reason why I have risen is to safeguard the interests of Scottish people, for whom I hope similar provision will be made.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I support this Amendment. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will think again about it. He has had no support from his own side of the House, and, of course, no support from this side of the House. We have had the astounding position of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), no

    1543
    doubt largely because he did not hear, or if he heard, did not understand, the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), speaking in the same vein as the hon. Member for Torquay and agreeing with everything that the hon. Member for Torquay said. What does it mean if we do not have these words inserted? It means that when one of these fun fairs passes from one county to another, application will have to be made to the county council planning committee before it can use land which has not been used before, in the same way as I imagine anyone who wants to have a fete or horse show on land which has not previously been used for that purpose, will have to apply for permission.
    Mr. Messer: Why not?
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Is this not going too far? Are not the present powers of control adequate? I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look at the matter again. We do not find these fairs suddenly starting up in places where they are obnoxious to the people in the neighbourhood.
    Professor Gruffydd: I do not know whether the National Eisteddfod of Wales could be correctly described as a "travelling circus" or whether it comes into this question, but it certainly moves from one part of the country into another in different years. I should like to be assured by the Minister that permission will not have to be sought in such cases.
    The Attorney-General: There is a little misunderstanding about the effect of the Bill in this respect and a grave misunderstanding about the attitude of Members of the Government towards functions of this kind. For my own part I never miss an occasion of attending a fun fair and—
    Mr. McAllister: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman allow me—
    The Attorney-General: I am afraid I will not. We have had a little too much fun about this. I always look forward with, I confess, diminishing confidence to the occasion when I shall meet the hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) in a "dodgem" car or see how he repeats, on the swings,
    1544
    his evolutions in the political roundabout. We are most anxious to do anything we can to promote the facilities available to the ordinary people of this country of having fun on suitable occasions. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry has misunderstood the effect of the Bill. There is nothing in this Bill which will prevent the travelling circus from going from county to county and town to town and returning to its old accustomed sites just as it has done year after year in the past. Under Clause 10 (5) (b) nothing will apply to the use of land which has been used for this kind of purpose—
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I am sure the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not wish to misinterpret me. I never suggested that that was prevented. I said that if they wanted to use a new site, they would have to get permission.
    The Attorney-General: I had not appreciated what the hon. and learned Gentleman had stressed. If it is a question of going to a new site, I agree that, in some circumstances, if their user of the new site amounted to a development of that site, that is a question of fact which would have to be considered on the merits of each case, and they would have to obtain permission. Hon. Gentlemen opposite will appreciate that the new site might be next to a hospital, or in some other position where it was manifestly undesirable that a fair should be established. Hon Gentlemen opposite have not suggested any adequate existing means by which the use of land for this kind of purpose can be controlled. We think it right that while existing sites which in the past have been consecrated to this most important and desirable use, should continue to be used there should exist some power which can be exercised in the case of necessity, to control the development of new sites for this purpose.
    Professor Gruffydd: May I have an answer to my question, because it is a matter of some consequence?
    Mr. McAllister: Before the Attorney-General replies, would he agree that this Amendment has nothing whatever to do with fun fairs which are a degenerate and bastard—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is now making a second speech, which he is not entitled to do
    Mr. Beechman: If the people of Cornwall could have heard the speech of the Attorney-General, they would have been rather disturbed. Cornwall is full of joy and colour, but it has a serious purpose. Travelling circuses and fairs play a very prominent part in the life of various towns and villages in Cornwall on what are called feast days. I am rather disturbed to hear that if such a circus or fair is established on a new site it may be in trouble. The learned Attorney-General asked what was to be done if such a fair sought to establish itself next to a hospital but, under the existing law, that could be restrained as a nuisance and it would be quite impossible for a fair to be established on such a site. Therefore, on behalf of the children of Cornwall—and I hope I may be accounted one—who so enjoy these fairs and circuses, I rise to protest, and I hope that the matter will yet be reconsidered,
    Brigadier Rayner: On behalf of the children of Devonshire I would like to say a word. In these grim and very grey days, these circuses and fairs are amongst the few things that cheer us up. I suggest that any new powers are utterly unnecessary. Next week in Dawlish, which is my home town, a fair is arriving. The owners applied to use the green on the sea front. The council discussed the application at last week's meeting; they decided that this fair might cut up the green too much, and that it should go to the playing fields a mile away. So the present powers are ample to deal with everything of that kind. This is just another bit of completely unnecessary legislation.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 129. Noes, 259.

    Division No. 210.]

    AYES

    [5.44 p.m

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

    Granville, E. (Eye)

    Nutting, Anthony

    Aitken, Hon. Max

    Gruffydd, Prof. W. J

    Orr-Ewing, I. L

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W (Armagh)

    Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

    Peake, Rt. Hon. O

    Amory, D. Heathcote

    Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

    Pickthorn, K.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R

    Head, Brig. A. H.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Balfour, A.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

    Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

    Barlow, Sir J

    Herbert, Sir A. P.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig O

    Baxter, A. B.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Raikes, H. V.

    Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

    Hogg, Hon. Q

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Beechman, N. A.

    Hollis, M. C.

    Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S C. (Hillhead)

    Bennett, Sir P

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Renton, D.

    Birch, Nigel

    Howard, Hon, A.

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Boothby, R.

    Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

    Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow. C.)

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Brown, W. J. (Rugby)

    Jarvis, Sir J

    Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T

    Jeffreys, General Sir G.

    Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

    Butcher, H. W

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Smithers, Sir W

    Byers, Frank

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Carson, E.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

    Challen, C

    Lipson, D. L.

    Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E

    Low, Brig. A. R. W.

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Lucas, Major Sir J.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Crowder, Capt. John E

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Cuthbert, W. N.

    Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

    Taylor, Vice-Adm E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Teeling, William

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

    Digby, S. W.

    MacLeod, J.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

    Drayson, G B

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F

    Drewe, C

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)

    Manningham-Buller, R. E

    Wadsworth, G

    Duthie, W. S.

    Marsden, Capt. A.

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Eccles, D. M.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Ward, Hon. G. R

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

    Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J

    Erroll, F. J.

    Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Fletcher, W. (Bury)

    Morrison, Maj. J. C. (Salisbury)

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon W. S. (Cirencester)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Gage, C.

    Mott-Radclyffe, Maj C E

    York, C.

    Gammans, L. D.

    Neven-Spence, Sir B

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Nicholson, G.

    Major Ramsey and

    Glyn, Sir R

    Nield, B. (Chester)

    Mr. Studholme.

    NOES

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Attewell, H. C.

    Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

    Alpass, J. H

    Austin, H. Lewis

    Allen, A. C (Bosworth)

    Anderson, A (Motherwell)

    Awbery, S. S

    Ayles, W. H.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Pryde, D. J.

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

    Hicks, G.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Ranger, J.

    Barstow, P. G.

    Holman, P.

    Rees-Williams, D. R.

    Barton, C.

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Reeves, J.

    Battley, J. R.

    House, G.

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Bechervaise, A. E

    Hoy, J.

    Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

    Benson, G.

    Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Robens, A.

    Beswick, F.

    Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

    Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Royle, C.

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Irving, W. J.

    Sargood, R.

    Binns, J.

    Janner, B.

    Scollan, T.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Jay, D. P. T.

    Scott-Elliot, W.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Segal, Dr. S.

    Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

    Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

    Shackleton, E. A. A

    Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

    John, W.

    Sharp, Granville

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Jones, D, T. (Hartlepools)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Bramall, E. A.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Keenan, W.

    Shurmer, P.

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Kenyon, C.

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

    Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Buchanan, G.

    Kinley, J.

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Burke, W. A.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Butler, H W. (Hackney, S.)

    Kirkwood, D

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Lavers, S.

    Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

    Chamberlain, R. A.

    Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    Champion, A. J.

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

    Clitherow, Dr. R.

    Levy, B. W.

    Snow, Capt. J. W.

    Collindridge, F.

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Colman, Miss G. M.

    Lewis, T. (Southampton)

    Soskice, Maj. Sir P

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Cook, T. F.

    Logan, D. G.

    Stamford, W.

    Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

    Lyne, A. W.

    Steele, T.

    Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

    McAdam, W.

    Stephen, C.

    Corvedale, Viscount

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Daggar, G.

    Mack, J. D.

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Daines, P.

    McKay, J. (Wallsend)

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Mackay, R. W. G (Hull, N.W.)

    Swingler, S.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

    McKinlay, A. S.

    Symonds, A. L.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Maclean, N. (Govan)

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    McLeavy, F.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Macpherson, T. (Romford)

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Deer, G.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Diamond, J.

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

    Dobbie, W.

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Dodds, N. N.

    Marshall, F. (Brightside)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Medland, H. M.

    Tiffany, S.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Mellish, R. J

    Titterington, M. F

    Dye, S.

    Messer, F.

    Tolley, L.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Middleton, Mrs. L.

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Vernon, Maj. W. F

    Edwards, John (Blackburn)

    Mitchison, G R.

    Viant, S. P.

    Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

    Monslow, W.

    Walkden, E.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Montague, F.

    Walker, G. H.

    Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

    Moody, A. S.

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Ewart, R.

    Morley, R

    Warbey, W. N.

    Fairhurst, F.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (L'wish'm, E.)

    Watson, W. M

    Fernyhough, E.

    Mort, D. L

    Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Moyle, A.

    Weitzman, D.

    Forman, J. C.

    Murray, J. D

    Wells, P L. (Faversham)

    Foster, W. (Wigan)

    Nally, W.

    Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

    Freeman, Peter (Newport)

    Naylor, T. E.

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E..

    Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

    Gibson, C. W.

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Wigg, Col. G. E.

    Gilzean, A.

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Wilkes, L.

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Gooch, E. G.

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

    Goodrich, H. E.

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Gordon-Walker, P. C.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Williamson, T.

    Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

    Palmer, A. M F.

    Wills, Mrs. E. A

    Grey, C. F.

    Parker, J.

    Wise, Major F. J

    Grierson, E.

    Parkin, B. T.

    Woodburn, A.

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Woods, G. S

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

    Pearson, A.

    Wyatt, W.

    Guy, W. H.

    Peart, Capt. T. F.

    Yates, V. F.

    Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

    Piratin, P.

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Hall, W. G.

    Popplewell, E.

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES

    Hardy, E. A.

    Porter, G. (Leeds)

    Mr. Joseph Henderson and

    Harrison, J.

    Price, M. Philips

    Mr. Hannan.

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Proctor, W. T.

    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I beg to move, in page 10, line 20, to leave out "a," and to insert "no."
    With your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I should like the next Amendment—in line 21, to leave out "and of each," and to insert "or of any"—to be considered with this Amendment. Clause 10 describes what is and what is not development and in Subsection (3) there is the curious phrase
    "For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared"
    that any man who converts one house into two or more separate dwellings is undertaking development. The phrase "for the avoidance of doubt" reminds me of Macaulay's phrase "every schoolboy knows." Of course every schoolboy did not know, and this phrase raises more doubts than it allays. One doubt is what really is the intention of the Government in regard to the levying of development charges. Do they intend to levy development charges upon buildings, or upon sites? Listening to the Second Reading speeches one heard hon. Member after hon. Member opposite rejoicing in the fact that values which had been created by the community were now to be taxed for the benefit of the community. The whole argument seemed based on the fact that development charges were to be levied on sites, yet, "for the avoidance of doubt," it is here stated that development charges are to be levied on buildings. I ask the Government to allay that doubt, and to make clear their intention in regard to the levying of development charges. Is it on sites, or also on buildings on those sites?
    The second doubt which this raises in my mind is whether the Government are really in earnest about the housing of the people of this country. Here we have the clearly laid down intention of the Government that where a man performs the beneficial act of turning a house into two, three, or more, separate dwellings, he renders himself liable to all the rigmarole of applying to the Central Land Board to be told what the development charge is, and to waiting until the property has been inspected and the amount assessed, before he can get planning permission or licences. One can imagine the owner of a building which already houses two, three, or more, families, and which has not been
    1550
    modernised, looking at all the things which have to be done under the terms of this Bill, and saying in despair, "Dash it all, I would rather leave the property as it is. I am not going to all the trouble of finding out what the development charge is to be, and then converting the building." Every hon. Member must know from his daily correspondence, as well as from his own observation, that there are not sufficient houses provided for the people, and that people are living in single rooms, or sometimes in two rooms and sharing a kitchen or bathroom. It should be the intention of the Government that as quickly as possible plans should be made for the conversion of those buildings, and their modernisation, so that they can be made into decent separate dwellings.
    The first thing the Clause will do, if carried into effect, will be to delay modernisation, and to hold up conversion of such buildings. Already people are living in these conditions; this does not mean that they will be prevented from living in them in the future. We want to see that these conditions shall be alleviated to the greatest possible extent as quickly as possible. Many of these houses were once very fine houses, but they are now outmoded. Often they have pleasing Georgian or Regency exteriors, which should be retained. It would be a great shame if many of them were swept away, or torn down and replaced by modern streamlined buildings quite out of keeping with the character of the neighbourhood. Can it be said that because a man is laying out money by turning the interiors of such buildings into decent modern separate dwellings, he is doing something which ought to incur penalties, and make him liable to pay development charge? It used to be considered a virtue to make two blades of grass grow where one grew before. Here the Government are seeking to place a penalty upon a man who seeks to turn one dwelling into two or more. That may be good planning, but it is bad policy.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I beg to second the Amendment.
    This Amendment, which was proposed in such forceful and felicitous terms by my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley), relates to a Clause which proposes to do away with certain doubts. I feel that my hon.

    1551
    Friend rather flattered the Government when he asked them what the effect of this Clause was on the levying of development charges in respect of the process of conversion. It seems to me, from a study of the Clause, that the answer must be that with the Clause as at present drafted, a development charge must clearly be levied on those processes of conversion. Under Clause 10 of the Bill, which we are at present discussing, planning permission is required in respect of development to he carried out, and development includes
    "the making of any material change in the use of any buildings or other land."
    The process of conversion is, by this part of the Clause, defined as being "a material change" of use. That being so, it seems to me that, as the Clause stands, it must follow that the process of conversion is liable, under Clause 62, to the levy of a development charge.
    I note that the right hon. Gentleman expresses agreement that that is, in fact, the position arising under this Clause as it stands. It is because that is the position, and because we think that is a wrong position, that we wish to have this Clause amended in the sense expressed in the words on the Order Paper. My hon. Friend rightly stressed the importance of this particular matter in relation to the great question of housing the people of this country. The business of town planning is not solely concerned with amenity; it is not solely concerned with trying to restrict bad or inaesthetic development. At least an equally important part of any right concept of town planning is an insistence on its positive aspect of promoting good development. If that is true in normal times, how much more is it true today, when we have this enormous shortage of housing accommodation, and when we can see, from the lamentable failure of the housing policy, and from the retreat of the Minister of Health even from the modest target for 1947, that we shall have a very small contribution towards the solution of this problem by way of erection of new houses.
    Because that is so, it makes it doubly important that we should try to stimulate the provision of additional housing accommodation by getting appropriate conversion, and that we should not try to fetter and restrict it, as would be done
    1552
    by the Clause as it stands, which imposes an obligation of a development charge on people who try to expand housing accommodation by the processes of conversion. What is the argument against it? The right hon. Gentleman insisted, in Committee upstairs, that it was necessary that we should retain the obligation to get town planning permission for these processes of conversion. He put that forward primarily on aesthetic grounds. I said then, and I repeat, that no one attaches more importance than I do to these aesthetic questions. I wholly associate myself with what my hon. Friend has said. We naturally desire as much as anybody to retain, for example, the pleasing Georgian elevations to which he has referred. Many of these processes of conversion are, in fact, internal processes; the structural alterations are internal and the pleasing facades remain undestroyed and unimpaired. Those are the processes of conversion which we have in mind; to the outer view the appearance is the same, but inside, instead of housing one person uncomfortably, the houses are housing several people in a way which is reasonably appropriate to the social and economic realities of our day. That is the sort of conversion we have in mind.
    Is it necessary to subject that sort of conversion to the necessity of obtaining town planning permission in order to prevent the possibilities of deterioration of amenity? It is not, because, of course, these internal processes of structural alteration are governed by the necessity of obtaining by-law permission. Town planning permission under this Bill will have to be sought from the more remote planning authority, that is to say, the county council, but by-law permission is the concern of the local authority, the borough council or the county district council. Therefore, it imposes a closer supervision upon these processes than anything that can be exercised by a town planning body. The case is clear that the processes of conversion are valuable as an addition to housing accommodation. It is also clear that they can be carried out, even if exempted from the necessity of obtaining permission, and therefore incurring a liability for development charge, without undue fear of deterioration of amenity or standard.
    As my hon. Friend so persuasively pointed out, the alternatives, if we do

    1553
    not take this course, are two. One is that large houses will continue unconverted, housing one or two people, uncomfortably and unsuitably, in a way in which I am sure the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. McAllister) and the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), both from different points of view, would agree in condemning as undesirable. The second possibility is that these large houses will become the homes of a great many families without the necessary structural alterations being carried out. They will be large houses housing many families without the necessary alterations and amenities which are desirable. That is the quickest way in which the right hon. Gentleman can promote the growth of slums in this country. We do him the credit of believing that that is not his intention. Therefore, I most strongly urge that we should assist in the solution of the problem of housing the people of this country by trying to stimulate this process of house conversion, and that we do so by incorporating this Amendment in the Clause.
    Mr. Gallacher: More and more am I amazed at the language which is used on the other side of the House, when hon. Members want to serve some particular purpose. I listened to the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) telling us that there are houses in this country in which one family lives uncomfortably because the houses are too big.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Member is making a very jejune point. Surely it is within his knowledge, and the knowledge of the House, that in bygone spacious days there were large houses which could only be lived in with certain social amenities and ancillaries, in particular a large domestic staff. Those conditions have passed away, and I do not regret it, but it makes any attempt to perpetuate them quite unsuitable.
    Mr. Gallacher: I would advise the hon. Member, when he is talking to me, that if he is not prepared to use English he might try Scottish. I am not sure that I am sufficiently well acquainted with languages to get the full meaning of the word "jejune." Perhaps he will explain it to me later. In spite of what he says about the changed conditions of today, there are in this country many houses
    1554
    which I should like to see converted. I Think the Minister also would like to see them converted. The hon. Member for Hertford and his friends would not like to see them converted. The occupants of these houses may live uncomfortably, but they would live much more uncomfortably if the accommodation were taken away and given to other people.
    I have in mind houses that have been vacated, not because they were too big for the occupants, but because the area in which the houses were built gradually began to be used by the local authorities for housing, and the proletariat began to encroach The owners of the houses wanted to get far far away from such associations, so the houses were vacated. Some of the houses which I have in mind which were formerly occupied by one family are now occupied by six families. There are a common kitchen, a common bathroom and lavatory accommodation on the ground floor and the same facilities upstairs. That does not alter the fact that there are six separate dwellings. Some hon. Members appear to think that if everyone has not got a bathroom, lavatory accommodation, and a kitchen of their own, they are not living in separate dwellings, but I assure them that they are separate dwellings. If hon. Members had lived as I have lived in a tenement, they would know that there may be three separate dwellings on each landing. We had no bathrooms at all in most of those houses. There was a common lavatory at. the stair head, but they were separate dwellings. In the same way in the converted houses which I have in mind there are six separate dwellings, three below and three above.
    No one can say that no notice should be taken of that and that no development charge should be made. Naturally, this must be taken into account in connection with planning. The planning authority must take account of all the large houses that can be converted, and when they see that conversion is taking place, development charges should be made. Of course, the system must be controlled and regulated in a way which will avoid the horrible system existing in many parts of Glasgow, where there are places which are not separate dwellings. There are places where three families live together in one big room. They may hang a sheet across the room to get a

    1555
    measure of privacy. We must get rid of that sort of thing. Surely, we should ensure that these large houses are converted.
    6.15 p.m.
    The suggestion has been made that if there is a development charge, the person who owns the property will allow the house to stand empty. Anyone who can get hold of one of these large houses will be ready to convert it into a dwelling for two, three or more families. The mere fact that there is to be a development charge will not he any handicap. If I were interested in property—I am not— I could get hold of quite a number of houses which, at present, are only partially in use. I would do my best to get the tenants taken out and put into more comfortable conditions, and would make use of these houses for reconversion purposes. I would turn them into two, three or four separate dwellings and I would gladly face any development charge. It would make a very useful contribution to the development plans of local authorities, and it would also be a profitable business for the individual who had control of the property. I do not think that the Minister should give any consideration to the Amendment. He should keep the Clause as it stands.
    Mr. Digby: I had a little difficulty in following the argument of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) but I concluded that, true to his Communist principles, he was advocating community kitchens and saying that every housewife required at least five other women to share her kitchen with her. If that was his argument, I am afraid I do not agree—
    Mr. Gallacher: I did not argue for any such thing. Although there happens to be a common kitchen, there are six separate distinct and private dwellings in some of these houses.
    Mr. Digby: Hon. Members on this side of the House believe that it is far better to have six separate kitchens, and that is why we put forward this Amendment. We believe, for reasons which have been made absolutely clear, that there will be a great deterrent to people who would wish to convert houses into flats. In a constituency such as mine, which is largely rural, there are in the countryside and in
    1556
    the larger towns a number of houses which are large by modern standards and which might well be converted into two or more flats. That work has been in progress, but unless this Amendment is carried, there is a grave danger that it will not continue. It is in the interests of the housing drive that more accommodation should be made available. We should also remember the amenity aspect of the matter. Many of these houses have considerable architectural merits, and it would be a misfortune if they were allowed to deteriorate and perhaps eventually fall down.
    I think perhaps the Minister does not appreciate, in regard to the development charge, what a very indefinite position exists from the point of view of an owner who wishes to convert. He knows very little indeed, about the nature of the development charge, and he can do nothing but make the wildest guess at what it will be. In other words, he is entering into a complete gamble. In most cases, the conversion of a house into three or six flats, whatever it may be, is not likely to bring in much more rent. It is a pity that the Minister should go out of his way to discourage owners from doing this. I hope he will consider the Amendment most seriously.
    Mr. W. J. Brown: The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment said that we were confronted here with a conflict between politics and policy. I think we are confronted with a conflict between one policy and another, both legitimate in their own way, but requiring to be balanced one against the other. The policy with which the Minister is very properly concerned is the policy, first, of preserving the amenities of our countryside and towns, and, secondly, of acquiring for the State the development benefit which comes from the aggregation of people together in a given area. These are the two main purposes in this Bill, and they are legitimate and worthy purposes. As against that, we have to consider the point which has been made here that there is an overriding, catastrophic and calamitous shortage of housing accommodation in Britain, and that anything we can do to stimulate a solution, even an unorthodox solution, of that problem, is something that we ought to do.
    I had my daughter to lunch today, and I rejoice to say that, after two years of effort, with considerable priority—because

    1557
    she is a war widow with a child—she has, at last, achieved an ambition of several years' standing to have a home of her own. She is now accommodated in a Nissen hut, and there are 5.000 people on the list of the local authority in whose area she lives, who have not even got a Nissen hut. When housing conditions are in that catastrophic state, I argue that the very proper ambitions which the Minister has in this Bill may require to be qualified by reference to the practical urgencies of the situation. In the light of that, I invite the House to look at the effect of the Clause.
    First of all, there is no doubt that the Clause implies that the owner who wants to convert a house into a series of smaller messuages—I think that is what they are called—has to get permission, not the ordinary approval under the by-laws of the local authority, but a special development permission. This country is rapidly becoming strangled by the necessity to get permission. We have not quite got to the stage when we require permission to sneeze, but we are not far off it, and the cumulative effect of all these permissions, in slowing down the mechanism of life in Britain and the rate of production is, in my view, incalculable, and we ought not to do anything to make any obligation to get an additional permission unless it is overridingly important that we should do so.
    I submit that, in what the Minister is concerned about, that is, amenity exteriors, he can get all he wants under the present by-law permission from the local authority, and that he does not need this special development permission in order to secure the perfectly legitimate object, which is one of the legitimate objects with which he is concerned. With regard to the second object with which the Minister is concerned, there is no doubt that, under Clause 10, the change in the character of a building by converting it from one dwelling-place into a number, would attract to the owner the necessity of paying development rights. Here, again, we have to balance theoretical desirability with practical needs. In every other sphere of life, when we want to get extra effort, we offer an inducement for it. If we want overtime, we offer a higher rate of pay. If we want larger families, we offer higher rebates of Income Tax, with children's allowances. The one field in which we offer no induce-
    1558
    ment, but every deterrent and penalty, is in housing the people. The whole of our rating system in this country is a positive and active deterrent to the improvement of property. If a man has a house and wants to make an improvement to it, and he puts plans before the local authority, the first thing that happens is that the rates assessment is increased.
    Mrs. Middleton: On a point of Order. Is the hon. Gentleman in Order on this Amendment in discussing the matters which he is now raising?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I was just about to rise to point out that the hon. Member is now very wide of the Amendment.
    Mr. Brown: With very great respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I am entitled to argue, in my submission, that, if there are already too many deterrents to the improvement of property, we ought not to have another. That is all I am trying to do.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is in Order for the hon. Gentleman to use that as an illustration, but not to develop it.
    Mr. Brown: I do not propose to develop it. I know I am in Order in mentioning it, but not in developing it, and all I have done is to mention it. The fact is that our present rating system is already a big deterrent.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: What the hon. Gentleman has said is perfectly right, up to a point. That point is that the Chair determines the line of demarcation.
    Mr. Brown: Certainly, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and that is why we look to you for guidance in these matters. We ought not to add to existing deterrents, but, on the contrary, to give a positive inducement in order to transform large houses into smaller ones and make one contribution to the solution of the housing problem. The hon. Member who speaks for Moscow—
    Mr. Gallacher: Do not be cheap.
    Mr. Brown: That, if I may say so, is—
    Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. Is it permissible for the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown), in a cheap and "fun fair" sort of manner, to take

    1559
    the phrase of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), and would it not be desirable that he should get some crack of his own?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is not for me to correct any inaccuracy of the hon. Member for Rugby, but I would point out that Moscow has no representative in this House.
    Mr. Brown: That is one aspect of international politics and social philosophy which I will not pursue.
    Mr. Gallacher Mr. Gallacher rose—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not know whether the hon. Member for Rugby desires to continue his speech.
    Mr. Brown: In Scotland. there are many cases where there are houses which have six separate dwelling places within them, but where the people share a common kitchen, common lavatories, and a common bathroom. It is within the recollection of this House that that is what the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) said, but, instead of deploring that situation, as I imagine a normal person would, instead of saying that it is intolerable that these families should share one kitchen or bathroom or lavatory, the hon. Member seems to regard that as the apex of social progress. That is the height of the hon. Member s ideal.
    6.30 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: Under this Clause, the use of such houses can be controlled and directed in such a way that that will not be possible.
    Mr. Brown: I now gather that the hon. Member does not want it to happen, and if so, he is at one with me, and ought not to describe me as a mountebank. I submit that is not what we want in England or in Scotland. If we do not want it, instead of leaving large houses gradually to deteriorate into that situation—which will certainly happen unless the property owner has some incentive to get on with the job on his own account—instead of allowing those large houses to deteriorate into a series of tenements, we ought to do everything we can to facilitate their con-version into proper, separate, self-contained apartments for people to live in. That is why one element of policy has to balance against another. Granted that the Minister's objectives in the Bill
    1560
    are right, granted that we have to preserve the amenities of the town and countryside, granted that society is entitled to share in the development rights which it creates itself—granted all that—one has still to balance that situation against a housing situation in Britain which, in my view, constitutes the gravest single social problem that this country has to face. The Amendment is an attempt to provide some incentive in that direction, and I hope we shall get something more in response to it than a mere negative from the Minister.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I wish to reinforce some of the arguments that have been used and to add a plea about the rural side of the matter. It is very difficult to begin to visualise, as the Bill is at present, the sort of odds that might be weighted against converting larger houses in the country. I know of many cases where the owners are only too anxious to hand over their big houses and to live in very much smaller ones—in many cases they are already living in cottages—and to convert the larger houses into accommodation that could be used by those who are actively engaged on work on the land. That would be a very sensible arrangement. As the Bill is at present, however, what can an owner do? What does he know about his position? How does he know what he will be charged or surcharged, or what permissions he will have to get? It is asking a great deal to expect owners of such property, which could be made of very great use to the local community as a whole, to indulge in that sort of undertaking when they feel that they might be penalised for doing so.
    There is another aspect of the matter. We have heard from my hon. Friends and from hon. Members opposite about the single houses. This matter goes a great deal further than that. In London and the great cities—in most of them, although not in all of them—there are long terraces of larger houses; there are whole streets, circuses, and squares of them. What the position. if this Amendment is not inserted in the Bill? Let hon. Members take the case of the two cities nearest to my constituency, Bath and Bristol, and imagine what could be done if owners were encouraged to do it instead of being debarred and discouraged from doing it. Let hon. Members imagine what could be done in converting those houses, which are rapidly becoming more and more unsuit-

    1561
    able for those who occupy them, under sound conditions and, obviously, always under the authority of the local authority as regard details. The local authority seems to have been forgotten by all those who oppose the Amendment. It would be of tremendous value to the community if those terraces could be retained, and it would be of value not only from the housing point of view, but because they would add to the aesthetic standard of any other buildings that would be erected in their immediate neighbourhood. In the older towns and cities, where intelligent local authorities have been guided by intelligent architects, the whole feeling of some of the better buildings in a town— it may be only a half dozen of them—has been carried through into the more modern structures of the town. If we deliberately discourage the conversion of those houses, we shall encourage their destruction, and we shall encourage the omission of all that is finest in our architectural history.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is it not clear to the hon. Member that, if this Amendment were accepted, these houses which he wants to see retained as an attraction would be turned into rabbit warrens?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am a Scotsman like the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), and I thought that, as I was talking in words of one syllable, he could not hold against me the objection that he held against my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith). I do not think there is anything in this Amendment that would cause these houses to be converted into rabbit warrens. It would do exactly the opposite. Under the Bill there is every encouragement, if there is a low fellow who wants to develop rabbit warrens, for these houses to be turned into rabbit warrens rather than for the owners to go through all the rigmarole, with the risk that is held against them, under the Bill. Those of us who support the Amendment are trying to eradicate that provision from the Bill in order that proper conversion shall be carried out in a proper way and people be decently housed.
    I know some of the housing conditions in Glasgow which the hon. Member for Wes; Fife has in mind. Does he want to see those conditions perpetuated and encouraged? There are terraces in Glasgow now which might very easily become rabbit warrens, unless this Amendment is
    1562
    accepted. I agree with the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) that the deterrents against those who want to try to help the country and local communities in housing matters are very strong. Things are very difficult, partly because people do not know where they are, and partly because the present Government have removed from the statute book, certainly as regards local areas, the one Act which might have been of assistance. I ask the Minister to consider the Amendment seriously, because I am certain that, unless some Amendment of this sort is accepted, people will not act as quickly and as well as they might act in the interests of the people as a whole.
    Mr. Hogg: I want to put a rather different point to the Minister before he replies. Those hon. Members who have spoken hitherto have spoken in terms of the effect which this Amendment may have on the policy of converting houses, and I do not wish to controvert that in any way because I take a somewhat different line, but I am concerned about whether, if this Amendment or an equivalent Amendment is not inserted, the Mininster will not, in fact, confuse the purpose of the Bill and insert certain provisions in it which will prove in practice to be wholly unworkable. The first consideration which obviously applies to this Amendment is the general purpose of the Clause to which it refers. The purpose of the Clause is to define the meaning of the word "development" for the purpose of setting out the circumstances in which the development permission is required and the purposes for which it is desired to institute a development charge. The first part of the Clause contains a definition of development which seems to me to be eminently reasonable and satisfactory. It provides that development consists of a material change in the use to which the land or buildings are put. That seems to be thoroughly satisfactory and absolutely proper. It lays down what each one of us using common sense, would say development was.
    In the Subsection which is under consideration and which it is proposed to amend, I submit that that eminently wise definition is receiving a gloss or interpretation which will lead to infinite confusion. I can well understand that there may be cases—we can all imagine them—in which the conversion of a dwelling house into

    1563
    one or more separate dwellings within it might constitute development within the general definition, and I am sure that if we studied the cases in detail there would not be a great deal of difference between the two sides of the House in concrete instances.
    But I can equally imagine cases where the change from one dwelling house to one or more dwellings within it would not constitute development within the meaning of the general definition. propose to give one or two instances. Suppose I am right in thinking that there will be such cases. I am equally right, surely, in suggesting that it is totally inappropriate in such cases to impose either the necessity for a permission, or the institution of a development charge. If it so happens that there are cases in which the change of structure does not, in fact, constitute a material change in the use of the building or the land, it must be totally inappropriate to demand either an additional permission or a development charge. I only refer in passing, because it was so well stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith), to the argument which he put forward, namely, that, at any rate, in such cases the existing by-law permissions which are necessary in order to effect structural changes are amply adequate to safeguard the needs of the community.
    This leads me to the second stage of the argument in which I hope to show the learned Attorney-General, who is not in agreement with the point which I have just made, that, in point of fact, he has not fully appreciated the meaning of this Subsection which it is proposed to amend. If he will look at paragraph (a) of Subsection (3), he will see that the criterion of what constitutes development that is not structural change; it is user. Let me pose this question to the learned Attorney-General which, I think, he will recognise as illustrating a reasonable difficulty I suppose that in his earlier days he, like me, practised in the county courts, and he must have been familiar with the constant difficulties which occur in the use of dwelling houses which are subject to the Rent Restriction Acts. One of the most frequent difficulties which occurs is when a tenant of a small artisan dwelling house sub-
    1564
    lets part of that house without any structural alteration whatever, to somebody who occupies two or three of the rooms and shares the kitchen and sanitary accommodation. That is one of the commonest practices in this country, and, although in many cases the lease demands that the landlord's permission should be obtained before such use is made, it is relatively rare for that formality to be observed, and if there is a permission it is an implied permission arising out of the acceptance of rent.
    6.45 p.m.
    What is the position under this Subsection? A tenant of a small dwelling house, of which there are hundreds of thousands in the Kingdom, may take in a lodger who rents as sub-tenant. There may be some argument as to whether he is a lodger or a sub-tenant. He, in fact, rents a room or two rooms for his exclusive use, together with the share of the sanitary accommodation and the kitchen. Under this Subsection, that will be the use of two separate dwellings in a building previously used as a dwelling house. I defy the right hon. and learned Gentleman to dispute that. That would be the use of a conversion of a single small artisan's dwelling house into two or more separate dwellings.
    The Attorney-General: I entirely agree. That has been the law since the Conservatives so enacted in 1932. Since the Interim Development Order was passed, any such change in user would have required a development permission. We are not altering the law in that respect. We are adopting the law as passed by a Conservative Parliament.
    Mr. Hogg: I am delighted to find that the learned Attorney-General should think that a law passed by a Conservative Parliament is one which he would wish to perpetuate. I suggest for his consideration that although, admittedly, Conservative laws are all good, they are not all perfect. We are not discussing a Measure which will perpetuate a state of law which, I submit in all seriousness, is in practice unworkable and has not, in fact, worked. It is fantastic to suggest that when a tenant of a small dwelling house sublets one or more of the rooms in that house to a sub-tenant or lodger and thereby, as the Attorney-General agrees, converts it into two or more dwelling houses, the whole appara-

    1565
    tus of the Town and Country Planning Act should come into existence, as the learned Attorney-General agrees to be the case. A permission has to be sought from the town planning authority; a development charge will, I suppose, become applicable, and elaborate sums will have to be worked out because a single room in a working class dwelling house has been altered. I see the force of some part of what the Minister may have in mind. I concede at once that a change of structure might, within the meaning of the general definition, constitute a material change in the user of the land or building. But I submit that the kind of criterion that he here proposes, puts a gloss or interpretation on the general definition which is not satisfactory at all, and will only tend to lead the law into confusion and even contempt.
    Mr. Silkin: The House will probably agree that we have spent far too long on this and the previous Amendment in relation to the available time. We have spent nearly two hours on them, and if hereafter hon. Members find that a great part of the Bill has not been discussed they will have themselves to blame. In matters of this kind the whole House must co-operate.
    Mr. W. J. Brown: Does the Minister suggest that two hours is too long a time for the discussion of a couple of points which affect literally thousands of cases?
    Mr. Silkin: Yes, I do. I say there has been a great deal of unnecessary repetition in the discussions on the last two Amendments. I do not say every speech was unnecessary. For instance, the speech of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) was a perfectly proper intervention; but there has been a great deal of unnecessary repetition. Moreover, this Amendment was dealt with at considerable length in Committee. What is the case that has been put up? I understand the case of the hon. Member for Oxford. He adopted a very familiar device in Debate. He took the extreme case and proved that the extreme case, if pressed to its logical conclusion, may be rather hard or difficult, or even absurd, and then he attempted to establish that, therefore, the whole case that is put up is equally absurd. I agree with him, it is absurd. I say straight away, it would be absurd so to operate this provision as to require
    1566
    everybody who lets a couple of rooms in an ordinary small tenement to apply for planning consent.
    The Bill has foreseen that by enabling the Minister to make development orders under which special classes of cases could be exempted from the provisions of the Bill. No doubt, any sensible Minister would consider which were trivial or unimportant cases which would inflict hardship, and which should be exempted from the operation of the requirement to get permission.
    Equally, we recognise that there will be a large number of borderline or marginal cases where, perhaps, theoretically a development charge might be appropriate, but which no sensible person would bother to attempt to collect, possibly even because it would cost more to collect these small charges than would be got out of them. Then again, I have given an undertaking, which will be carried out, that the de minimis cases of development charges will be taken care of, so that there is no attempt to chase after these tiny development charges.
    Mr. Gammans: Before the Minister leaves the question of making regulations, would he say clearly whether a development charge is to be levied on the site alone, or whether it is the site plus the bricks and mortar?
    Mr. Silkin: If the hon. Member will allow me to make my own speech, I propose to deal with the points that have been raised. I say to the hon. Member for Oxford, that it is unfair to argue the merits of this Amendment on the basis of these marginal cases. They will be taken care of.
    Let us discuss it on the basis of the normal case. Ought there or ought there not to be an application for consent in the case of a house becoming converted into a number of separate dwellings? The actual provision we are discussing says that it is
    "For the avoidance of doubt …"
    I think possibly that has been put in out of an abundance of caution, because in my view there really is not any doubt at all. Today, planning permission has to be obtained for the conversion of houses into separate tenements. I speak with some practical experience of this. I was chairman of a town planning committee for many years, and I personally had to

    1567
    deal with a great many applications of this kind. It was the normal thing for persons wishing to convert to apply for consent. I submit to the House that that was a very wholesome thing, because in that way one was able to secure that the conversion was carried out in the best possible manner, so as to provide the best possible kind of accommodation for the people who were to live in it.
    I would remind hon. Members that local authorities are not always the bogeys they are made out to be in discussions in this House. They have a great deal of experience, and certainly the authority of which I was a member was able to give prospective converters of houses a good deal of valuable advice as to the best way to carry out the development, and developers were very grateful for it. Therefore, I say there is considerable advantage, both to the prospective developers and to the community, in applying for this consent, and in getting the benefit of the experience of the authority in ensuring that the best possible type of conversion is obtained.
    There is another aspect to it. One can well conceive that if in certain areas which are possibly zoned for single family residences—and that is a zoning which the 1932 Act and subsequent town planning Measures have always recognised; it has always been recognised as quite a proper thing that certain parts of a town should be reserved for single family residences—it were open to owners of houses in such areas freely to convert these single family residences, without having to get consent, it might very well involve a serious change in the character of a neighbourhood. I am not arguing whether that change would be for the better or for the worse, but it would be a very serious change, which could be brought about without any control whatever. If town planning is to be a reality, changes of that kind ought not to be fortuitous; they ought not to be capable of being carried out at the whim of a particular owner. There ought to be some kind of control over changes in the character of a neighbourhood of that kind.
    Mr. Hogg: Surely, the Minister would agree that in the case which he has just cited the change would be covered by the general definition at the beginning of the
    1568
    Clause? For that purpose the Subsection we are now discussing would not be necessary.
    Mr. Silkin: I do not agree, because it might be that in each particular case of conversion we could put up the same sort of case as the hon. Member put up himself. It would be the cumulative effect on the neighbourhood with which I am concerned.
    Mr. Hogg: It is a material change.
    Mr. Silkin: It might not be a material change. The kind of conversion which could be made in respect of each separate house might not necessarily be a material change. If these words were not here it would be possible to create a drastic change in the character of a neighbourhood which would not only be a change in itself, but would have considerable repercussions. For instance, it might create a demand for additional schools, and other public facilities of that sort. Surely, the local authority ought to have some voice and some control over the possibility of changes of that kind? At the Ministry we are constantly having representations made to us against the conversion of houses into flats because of the effect it would have on the character of the neighbourhood. I have no particular sympathy with that kind of representation. I recognise the need for additional dwellings, but I do say that an individual has a right to make representations of that kind, and to have them considered. It would be quite wrong if people could, quite freely and without getting any consent whatever, be able to change the character of a neighbourhood. That is what this Amendment is intended to do. We have seen what has happened in a great many parts of London and other large areas. Through this freedom to make changes in the character of houses we have seen the creation of slums from areas which, in the past, have been areas occupied by people of comfortable means; gradually the houses have deteriorated through being occupied by a number of families, without control.
    7.0 p.m.
    That is exactly what this Amendment seeks to perpetuate, and what hon. Members opposite are trying to do. It will have slums created. This is really an Amendment creating the possibility of

    1569
    making new slums. Hon. Members who have spoken in support of it have suggested that the paragraph to which they object in Clause 10 would have the effect of discouraging an owner from carrying out conversion. I really fail to understand that argument. All that an owner is asked to do is to apply for consent, in the same way as he is required to apply today. There is no deterrent—no new deterrent—imposed by this Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Clause 62."] I am going to deal with that. As to the possibility that he may have to pay a development charge, as I understand some of the argument, it was not even the amount of the development charge that was the deterrent, but the possibility of having to pay an uncertain amount. It will be quite easy, at the time when the application for town planning consent is made, to ascertain what will be the amount of the development charge, if any. There is no additional trouble involved in ascertaining the amount of the development charge; and that, therefore, need not be a deterrent. I cannot understand the mentality of people—obviously, hon. Gentlemen opposite speak for them and do understand them—who would rather keep their places empty than ascertain what is the amount of a development charge.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Surely, the alternative is not between keeping a place empty and—
    Mr. Silkin: That was exactly what was suggested by an hon. Member who spoke—that people would rather keep their places empty. [HON. MEMBERS "Who?"] It was the hon. Gentleman whose constituency I cannot remember offhand, who said people would rather keep their places empty than go to the trouble of finding out the amount of the development charge.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I think I am in the re collection of most hon. Members in the House at the time when I say that I never suggested they would rather keep their places empty. I did say, most certainly. that the uncertainty of the owner's position did deter him and would deter him unless the position was made clear. I certainly said that. Obviously he would not keep his place empty.
    Mr. Silkin: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman, but I presume that when
    1570
    he says "deter" he means he would not carry out the development he otherwise would do.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Surely, the alternative is this; Either he will take people into his house, living there in insanitary and bad conditions, without any conversion carried out; or he will carry out the conversion. If he does not carry out the conversion, because of the development charge, he will not keep the house empty. he will fill it in a way that creates slums That is the point.
    Mr. Silkin: That is an interpretation which the hon. Gentleman did not make
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I really cannot have my speech completely distorted. I used exactly those words—that unless he did convert, the place would be turned into a rabbit warren and a slum; and that unless this Amendment- is put in, that is exactly what will happen. I do not think the Minister should so completely distort the words I used.
    Mr. Silkin: That is the last thing I wish to do. I still fail to understand the meaning the hon. Gentleman put on "deter." However, I shall not press that point.
    To summarise, I say that these provisions are necessary in order to prevent the creation of slums and to exercise better control over the development of a neighbourhood; I say further, that the marginal, the small, trivial case, that the hon. Member for Oxford referred to, can be dealt with under Clause II and that it would be the sensible thing to exempt cases of that kind. For what it is worth, I am prepared even to give an assurance that such classes of cases will be dealt with in a development order. In other cases, I submit to the House, it is important to keep this control. As regards the small development charge, on that again, I have given the assurance that it will not be levied. I submit, further, there need be no feeling whatever on the part of an owner that he is being deterred from carrying out this kind of conversion.
    Mr. J. S. C. Reid: I really do not think it lies in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman to complain that too much time has been taken over the discussion of this Amendment. I say that for two reasons. In the first place, the Amendment is an extremely important one

    1571
    There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who are affected by the terms of this Clause. In the second place, if the right hon. Gentleman seeks to divert the criticism which has been made from this side of the House by saying that in 90 per cent. of the cases the Clause will not be used, then I should have thought it was not beyond the wit of man to devise a suitable Amendment to his own Clause to make that clear on the face of the Bill, or, at least, to intimate to the House what the main lines of his exemptions are to be. We really cannot allow a Clause to go forward on the footing that the Minister will, in some way or another not clear to him, I think, and certainly not to us, exempt 90 per cent. of those whom it affects. That is the acme of bad legislation.
    What is the gist of the case? I do not wish to repeat what has been so well argued, if I may say so, from the benches behind me. But the whole question is, that this Clause seeks to prevent the creation of separate dwellings within an existing large house. I very much doubt whether it does effectively cover the case where there are no separate dwellings in the structural sense created. Perhaps the right hon. and learned Attorney-General, who made an interjection which I did not quite follow a little time ago, will tell me if I am wrong about this. Are there not numerous cases where we have two families living within the same structure, but not living in separate dwellings within the meaning of the Rent Restriction Acts? I think he will agree that that is so. There has been a good deal of litigation on that. We often find that we have two or more families living in the same house, and the court says they are not living in separate dwellings because they are sharing a great deal of accommodation. That is the kind of thing that leads to the rabbit warren. I am afraid that the rabbit warren will escape control as the Clause stands, and I hope that the Minister will look at that again. I raised this question, with much more particularity than I can now, in Committee on the Scottish Town and Country Planning Bill, and could not get an adequate answer.
    Mr. Silkin: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman seeking greater control, so as to cover those cases as well?
    Mr. Reid: What I am saying is that I think this Clause has got it completely wrong. This Clause is controlling the desirable form of development, the splitting of a big house into several structurally complete flats. That is a desirable form of development which ought to be encouraged, but I gravely doubt whether this Clause will control people going into a big house in large numbers and sharing accommodation, because they will not then be in separate dwellings within the meaning of the law. My criticism is that it is preventing the creation of separate dwellings, which are desirable, and permitting the association of large numbers of people in one structure, without having separate dwellings, which is highly undesirable. I see no objection to control being taken to prevent people associating in one house where there are no separate dwellings, but the creation of separate dwellings ought to be exempt from control. I do not want to repeat the arguments put forward on that point, which are particularly well founded at this time when accommodation is so short.
    Is this being introduced to scrape together development charges which will never be very much, but will nevertheless be hampering or is the basis of this something different? If it is fiscal, the right hon. Gentleman would be well advised to give up any small gain he might derive so as to encourage good development. The right hon. Gentleman says that this sort of thing will not hamper conversion, but surely it is common knowledge that the balance between converting, on the one hand, and continuing to use a house for a single family, on the other, is often very small. Very often people convert partly because they see their way to make a small profit, or partly because they think it is in the public interest to make accommodation available for more families. In a case in balance like that, an owner is not going to the trouble, or chance the insecurity, involved in making this additional application for permits. The right hon. Gentleman spoke as if only one application were necessary but there are two: the person has first to go to the planning control for permission to make an alteration, and worse than that, he then has to go to the Central Land Board to assess the development charge. It may be all right to go to the planning

    1573
    control, although in many cases they may be some distance away, but to go to the Central Land Board and lay yourself open to pay a development charge which may be far more than it ought to be, is not what a great many people will do. I have no hesitation in saying that the effect will be to prevent a large number of desirable conversions. On the other hand, it will encourage a large number of undesirable conversions, because if property
    is not converted, it will result in many places becoming rabbit warrens. I want want to see good conversions encouraged, and rabbit warrens prevented, and I believe that the exact opposite is now being done.
    Question put, "That 'a' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes 269; Noes, 102.

    Division No. 211.]

    AYES.

    [7.15 p.m

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Edwards, John (Blackburn)

    Levy, B. W.

    Adams, W T. (Hammersmith, South)

    Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Lewis, T. (Southampton)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

    Lipson, D. L.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

    Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

    Logan, D. G.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Ewart, R.

    Lyne, A. W.

    Attewell, H. C.

    Fairhurst, F.

    McAdam, W.

    Austin, H. Lewis

    Fernyhough, E.

    McAllister, G.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Ayles, W. H.

    Forman, J. C.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

    Foster, W. (Wigan)

    Mackay, R W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

    McKinlay, A. S.

    Balfour, A.

    Freeman, Peter (Newport)

    Maclean, N. (Govan)

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

    Gallacher, W.

    McLeavy, F.

    Barstow, P. G.

    Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

    Macpherson, T. (Romford)

    Barton, C.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Battley, J. R.

    Gilzean, A.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W

    Bechervaise, A. E.

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Mann, Mrs. J.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Gooch, E. G.

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Benson, G.

    Gordon-Walker, P. C.

    Marquand, H. A.

    Berry, H.

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

    Marshall, F. (Brightside)

    Beswick, F.

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Martin, J. H.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Grierson, E.

    Medland, H. M

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Mellish, R. J

    Blyton, W. R.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

    Middleton, Mrs.

    Bottomley, A. G.

    Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Guy, W. H.

    Monslow, W.

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Haire, John E (Wycombe)

    Montague, F.

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Hale, Leslie

    Moody, A. S.

    Brown, George (Belper)

    Hall, W. G.

    Morley, R.

    Buchanan, G.

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

    Morrison, Rt. Hon H. (L'wish'm, E.)

    Burke, W. A.

    Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

    Mort, D. L.

    Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

    Hardman, D. R

    Moyle, A.

    Byers, Frank

    Hardy, E. A.

    Murray, J D.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Harrison, J.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Chamberlain, R. A

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Champion, A. J.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Chetwynd, G. R

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Clitherow, Dr. R.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

    Cobb, F. A.

    Hobson, C. R

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Cocks, F. S.

    Holman, P.

    O'Brien, T.

    Colman, Miss G. M.

    House, G.

    Oldfield, W. H

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Hoy, J.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Cook, T. F.

    Hudson, J. H, (Ealing, W.)

    Paget, R. T.

    Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

    Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

    Corvedale, Viscount

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Crawley, A.

    Irving, W. J.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Daggar, G.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    Jay, D. P. T.

    Parker, J.

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

    Jeger, Dr. S W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

    Pearson, A.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    John, W.

    Peart, Capt. T. F

    Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

    Piratin, P.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Popplewell, E.

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Keenan, W.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Deer, G.

    Kendall, W. D.

    Porter, G. (Leeds)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Kenyon, C.

    Price, M. Philips

    Diamond, J.

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

    Proctor, W. T.

    Dobbie, W.

    Kinley, J.

    Pryde, D. J

    Dodds, N. N.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Lavers, S.

    Ranger, J.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

    Rees-Williams, D. R

    Durbin, E. F. M.

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Reeves, J.

    Dye, S.

    Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Ede, Rt. Hon J. C.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

    Robens, A.

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

    Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

    Swingler, S.

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Royle, C.

    Symonds, A. L.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Sargood, R.

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Wigg, Col. G. E.

    Scollan, T.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

    Scott-Elliot, W.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Wilkes, L.

    Segal, Dr. S.

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Shackleton, E. A. A

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

    Sharp, Granville

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. G R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Shurmer, P.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

    Tiffany, S.

    Williams, Rt. Hon T (Don Valley)

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Titterington, M F

    Williamson, T.

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Tolley, L.

    Wills, Mrs. E. A.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Woodburn, A

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    Vernon, Maj. W. F

    Woods, G. S

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Viant, S. P.

    Wyatt, W.

    Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

    Wadsworth, G

    Yates, V. F.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Walker, G. H.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Stamford, W

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Steele, T.

    Warbey W. N

    Zilliacus, K

    Stephen, C.

    Watson, W. M

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Stokes, R. R.

    Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

    Mr. Collindridge and

    Mr. Davies

    NOES.

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

    Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

    Orr-Ewing, I. L

    Amory, D. Heathcote

    Harvey, Air-Comdre, A. V.

    Peake, Rt. Hon. O

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Barlow, Sir J.

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Poole, O. B S. (Oswestry)

    Beamish, Maj. T. V H

    Hollis, M. C.

    Prescott, Stanley

    Beechman, N. A.

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig O.

    Bennett, Sir P.

    Hope, Lord J.

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Birch, Nigel

    Howard, Hon, A.

    Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

    Bower, N.

    Hurd, A.

    Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

    Braithwaite Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

    Jarvis, Sir J.

    Shephard, S. (Newark)

    Brown, W. J. (Rugby)

    Jeffreys, General Sir G

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

    Jennings, R.

    Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

    Carson, E.

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Challen, C.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Clarke, Col, R. S.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Studholme, H. G.

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Low, Brig. A. R. W.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Cuthbert, W. N.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Teeling, William

    Digby, S. W.

    Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

    Thorneycroft G. E. P (Monmouth)

    Drayson, G B.

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

    Drewe, C.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Thorp, Ly.-Col. R. A. F

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

    Manningham-Buller, R. E

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Marlowe, A. A. H

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Marples, A. E.

    Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

    Erroll, F. J.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

    Fletcher, W. (Bury)

    Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

    White, Sir D. (Fareham)

    Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

    Medlicott, F.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Gage, C.

    Morrison, Maj. J. C. (Salisbury)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Gammans, L. D.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    York, C.

    Glyn, Sir R.

    Neven-Spence, Sir B.

    Gridley, Sir A.

    Nield, B. (Chester)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

    Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

    Major Conant and

    Major Ramsey.

    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I beg to move, in page 10, line 22, to leave out paragraph (b).
    I think it may be convenient to the House, Sir, if I take, with this Amendment, the Amendment in line 25, as they run together. The House will see that paragraph (b) of Subsection (3) is quite as curious as the Subsection which has recently been the subject of such hot debate. For the avoidance of doubt we are told by Subsection (3, b) that
    1576
    "the deposit of refuse or waste materials on land may involve a material change in the use thereof, notwithstanding that the land is comprised in a site already used for that purpose, if the superficial area of the deposit is thereby extended."
    That means that if a man takes a cartload of ash, and tips it where ashes have been tipped for years, he will not have to apply for permission from the county council, provided that the ash falls where ashes have fallen before. But if, by any chance, some of the ash falls where ash has not fallen before, then, by this Sub-

    1577
    section, that may involve a material change in use. I understand that the Minister will suggest that it must involve a change in use, in view of an Amendment he has on the Order Paper. Is it not carrying control beyond all reasonable limits to say that the use of existing areas shall be subject to planning permission merely on account of extending an area, which is now used for tipping, by a matter of a yard, or a few yards?
    I suggest that it is carrying legislation to farcical limits, and that it may have a serious effect on various industries. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, in my part of the world one of the problems. is iron ore extraction, and what happens afterwards. Part of that process involves depositing large quantities of waste on the land from which the iron ore has been extracted. The right hon. Gentleman has seen the great ridges which have been caused by that extraction, and he knows that we on this side of the House have been pressing for some time for action to be taken in that matter. We do not want to see that industry hampered, or extraction prevented in proper cases. But if we apply this Subsection to that industry, every new cut of iron ore will mean that waste which has to be tipped into a fresh part of the same area will involve obtaining planning permission. I agree that if iron ore extraction is taking place in one field planning permission is not needed for every bit of the superficial area covered by the waste, but that if an extension of extraction is required in another field planning permission has to be obtained. But this Subsection goes to farcical limits, and I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should put something more reasonable into the Bill. I hope he will give an assurance on this point, although assurances are not so satisfactory as words in an Act.
    Apparently, a person can build up an ash-heap as high as it will go until it becomes a complete eyesore, without any control over it, provided he does not extend the superficial area by a foot. One of the best ways of using this waste is to fill up disused quarries, and places of that sort. That could be an extension of the superficial area without impinging on the skyline, or disfiguring the countryside. An extension of that sort would be subject to planning permission.
    1578
    This point was discussed in Standing Committee, and I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would have put down an Amendment to limit the extensive operation of this Subsection.
    7.30 p.m.
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I thought that, in spite of what my hon. and learned Friend has said, this Amendment was not discussed in Standing Committee upstairs, although some discussion arose on the Question that the Clause stand part. It may well be that we could have disposed of this matter satisfactorily up there, and then it would not have been necessary to take up the time of the House. This appears to be a small Amendment, but in fact it will affect a large number of people. There is a corner of my garden where the refuse and rubbish is dumped which comes out of my house. The dump when created was a small one, but day by day it encroaches upon the area of the land. In strict accordance with this Clause, it would be necessary for me to get development permission to continue to do this, and I might be subject to a development charge. That is the extent of the power which the Government are seeking to take.
    I know that when the right hon. Gentleman comes to reply he will say that it is not his intention to use powers in that way, and that he is proposing to make exemptions by regulation. It is a curious way of avoiding doubt to say exactly the opposite of what one intends to do, and then to take away from oneself the powers by regulation. The fact remains that this Clause gives power to prevent me, and, indeed, a large number of people from dumping house refuse on wasteland in the garden. The right hon. Gentleman may say that he is not proposing to require development permission to be granted in the case of the creation of minor private dumps. It is true that the rubbish from my house only covers an inch or two more of ground in the course of each week, but all dumps grow in that way. Whether he can find words which are adequate to describe the nature of the rubbish dump which he intends to bring within the provision of this Clause is exceedingly doubtful. I think that he will have to take account of the dump which he seeks to avoid, and his regulation will

    1579
    still be extremely confusing if he seeks to define the kind of dumping arrangement which is to be exempt, while leaving some arrangements to be included within the provisions of this Clause. It seems, therefore, that the words in the Clause are not apt for the purpose which I think we all desire to see carried out. In other words, there should be some control of the creation of vast unsightly heaps of ash, rubbish and tin cans which have disfigured the countryside.
    All that this paragraph does is to bring within the category of development an extension of the superficial area to be covered by the deposit of refuse. Many deposits of rubbish already cover a large superficial area, and, as I read this paragraph, it would be open to those who deposit refuse on such dumps to continue to do so, provided that instead of spreading it outwards, they spread it upwards. The Clause would enable a huge mountain of tin cans and ash to be reared up so as to dominate the countryside, without any fear of town planning control, whilst preventing what might be a useful expansion of the same heap over a low-lying piece of country, and enabling derelict marsh land to be built up and used for some proper purpose.
    I do not believe that that is the right hon. Gentleman's intention, but the words which are used clearly exempt a growing mountain from the provisions of the Clause. If we avoid doubt by stating clearly that the deposit of refuse is a development if the superficial area of the deposit is extended the implication is that it is not a development if we do not extend the superficial area. So long as we merely make a mountain grow upwards, we can keep on dumping and be outside the purview of the Bill. For those reasons, I think that this paragraph is wholly objectionable.
    Mr. Silkin: I do not think that hon. Members have directed their minds to the merits of the particular paragraph which they want to delete. The mover of the Amendment did not say a word about being in favour or not of controlling land used for the deposit of refuse.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: This is the second time in a short period in which the right hon. Gentleman has misquoted me. I said that the right thing was to give
    1580
    planning permission, if it meant permission for the opening up of a fresh area. If one went into another field to make a fresh deposit or one wanted to raise the height of it, my argument was that that should require permission.
    Mr. Silkin: The hon. and learned Gentleman did not say whether or not he was in favour of this particular method of controlling refuse deposit. All he did was to rather ridicule the idea by saying that an extension of an inch or so of the area of development would involve an application. Surely, the purpose of this paragraph is clear, and it seems to me unobjectionable. We cannot attempt by planning legislation to deal with existing refuse dumps, although that may be possible by other means. It may be possible under another Clause for them to be removed by Order, but this Clause deals with their extension. We say that existing refuse dumps cannot be dealt with at all, or can be dealt with under some other Clause. We can prevent their extension without consent.
    Sir H. Lucas-Tooth: Outwards but not upwards?
    Mr. Silkin: Yes, outwards but not upwards. We are going to control the use of additional land for these purposes. I know one can always argue about another inch. Supposing we concede that a person can use 10 per cent., what happens if, when that 10 per cent. has been used, more is wanted? We have to draw a line somewhere and we must draw that line firmly and say—"If you want to go beyond that, you have to apply for further consent." It does not follow that that consent will be refused. The rule in these cases is the amount of land that is at present used for these purposes, and it seems to me that, if we are to plan at all, we must regard the use of land for this possibly obnoxious purpose, as something which is subject to control. I have still to learn whether the mover and seconder of this proposal are in favour of that control or not. They really rested their case on the de minimis consideration and a good deal of the speech of the seconder was taken up with his particular garden. As far as his garden is concerned, we have taken great care to cover him. We had in mind his garden when we drafted Clause 10(1, c), and if he will examine that he will see that he can

    1581
    do what he likes with his garden and no one will interfere with him. It is when land is used other than that within the compass of a dwelling house and its confines that this Bill regards it as appropriate that there should be control.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The right Gentleman dealt with the point of the garden, I hope to the satisfaction of my hon. Friend the Member for South Hendon (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth), but he has not dealt with industries like the iron and ore industry where land is used for tipping. Under this Clause every time there is a tip, a fresh application has to be made for permission. The right. hon. Gentle- man has excluded areas where dumping has taken place already, but in his reply he said that for any addition to that area there must be planning permission, so that, if there is a new extract of iron ore, to tip the waste will mean a new application.
    Mr. Silkin: Only a person devoid of sense would imagine that he had to apply for permission every time he covered an additional inch of ground. Presumably, the owners of the industry will acquire land for the express purpose of tipping, and they will presumably apply for consent for that land to be used for that purpose, but they will not have to go to the county council for permission every time there is an extra cover of earth on to the land.
    7.45 p.m.
    Sir Harold Webbe: The right hon. Gentleman has apparently thought of the private garden, but I do not think that he has thought at all of the ordinary industrial tipping operation. Surely he knows very well what will happen. A light railway will be constructed along the top of the dump, and the waste will be put into trucks, which would be run to the edge and tipped over. Every time a truck is tipped, the land occupied is extended. The right hon. Gentleman says that an undertaking will acquire authority to use a certain area of land, and it will not be only that land for which they will apply, but what is to happen on the appointed day, when no one has any authority and no one has received any permission? They have not made an application because the Bill did not exist. To comply with the law, every one of these trucks
    1582
    will have to be stopped at a certain point, until a new application is made. I think the right hon. Gentleman is well meaning, as always. I think he is probably trying to do something good, but the Clause, as it stands, is a perfectly lunatic way of trying to do it.
    Amendment negatived.
    Amendment made: In page 10, line 22, leave out "may involve," and insert "involves."—[Mr. Silkin.j
    Mr. Silkin: I beg to move, in page 11, line 1, after "that," to insert:
    "(i) in determining for the purposes of paragraph (a) of this subsection the purposes for which land was normally used, no account shall be taken of any use of the land begun in contravention of previous planning control within the meaning of Section sixty-nine of this Act;
    (ii)."
    This part of the Clause deals with resumption of a normal use where land is being used on the appointed day for a use which is not its normal use. The effect of this Amendment is to secure that the paragraph does not permit resumption without planning permission if that use was originally instituted in contravention of the planning control.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Silkin: I beg to move, in page II, line 2, to leave out from "which," to the end of line 3, and to insert:
    "was unoccupied on the seventh day of January nineteen hundred and thirty-seven and has not been occupied since that date."
    The purpose of this Amendment is to extend backwards the period in respect of which planning permission does not need to be obtained, in order to secure the use of the premises. It is in accordance with an undertaking which I gave.
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: This is a point which was raised in Standing Committee. The Minister undertook to consider it, and he has fulfilled his undertaking, for which we are grateful.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 11.—(Development orders.)
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: I beg to move, in page 11, line 9, at the end, to insert:
    "(b) In any county or part of a county in respect of which a development plan has for the time being not been made and approved under the foregoing provisions of this Act the authority which if this Act had not been passed would have been the Interim Development Authority."

    1583
    This Amendment goes with the following one—on page line 14, at end, to insert:
    "(2) Before determining any application for permission to develop land, the authority referred to in paragraph (b) of the foregoing subsection shall consult with the local planning authority."
    With permission I will deal with both together as they involve the same point, which is shortly this: This Bill makes a change in the local planning authorities. Up to now they have been identical with the housing authorities that is to say, in the counties they have been county districts, but now the local planning authority is to be the county council. It will be some time before these new authorities have found their feet, and before they have carried out what the Bill enjoins on them—the preparation of a survey, and the subsequent development plan. Therefore, it is certain that a considerable period of time must elapse before these new local authorities are in a position to deal with applications which will come before them. The purpose of the Amendments which we are now considering is to ensure that in that interim period before the new authorities are under way, the old planning authorities who have hitherto dealt with applications for consent should continue to function, but that in doing so they should consult the new planning authority, namely, the county council, so as to ensure that in giving or refusing consent they are, to the best of their ability, acting in conformity with the desire of the new planning authority.
    It is really a machinery provision designed to ease over this difficult transition period from the old system to the new. It is, of course, of great public importance because we are all very anxious to see the work of development proceeding unchecked. Housing is a great necessity and in passing this legislation and agreeing, as we are, to the change of authorities, we wish to ensure that the change shall not be allowed to hamper the provision of necessary development. There is a further advantage in this proposal. Anyone wishing to build a house today has to go to the housing authority and obtain by-law consents. While they are scarce he has also to obtain from the local authorities permits for the necessary building materials. Although planning is taken
    1584
    out of the hands of the county district housing authorities by this Bill, the other functions to which I have alluded still remain with them. The county districts will still be the authorities for by-law purposes and will continue to handle the permits for materials. The developer who proposes to proceed will have to obtain one set of consents from the district council and, under this Bill, another from the county council for the planning consents.
    I earnestly impress upon the Government and upon the House that at this time it would be very unwise to change horses too suddenly in the middle of the stream. These existing housing authorities are well accustomed to handling planning consents, and there will he a great advantage if the man who wishes to develop can go to one authority and obtain all his consents from the same person for the project he has in hand. I think the provision in the second Amendment to ensure consultation with the planning authority will obviate any risk of a clash or conflict between the consents given and the ultimate design of the plan. In general, as a matter of administration, the way the proposal would work would be that the interim development authorities, on whom we are proposing to confer the power of giving development consent in the interim period, would have a consultation with the new authority, the county council, and determine the lines on which they should proceed. They would have a general sailing direction from the new authority as to how far they should go in giving these consents. If that were done I apprehend that the time of everybody would be saved, and I am sure that it would obviate the risk of undue delay in granting these permissions.
    There is another consideration which applies particularly to our rural districts. I will refer, by way of example, to the county of which I have the honour to represent part—namely, Gloucestershire. It is a very long and straggling county with, on the whole, difficult communications. It is split up into a number of rural districts such as, for example, the North Cotswold rural district and the Northleach rural district. These remote villages are a long way from Gloucester, and there is no habitual travelling between them and Gloucester. Apart from its geo-

    1585
    graphical connections Gloucester might be in another county as far as the inhabitants of these remote areas are concerned. This Bill makes it necessary for the developer to obtain a planning consent before any development can proceed. I think it is asking too much of people in these isolated parts to require them to journey all the way to a county town which is very difficult and expensive to get at unless one has a motor-car. Time will be lost by the mere physical difficulty of travelling to and fro. I do not deny that when the new county authority get into their stride it will be possible to arrange for them to delegate some of their authority outwards, or to arrange some postal system of application for these permits. But at the present time, until they have got into their stride, it will be quite impossible for them, having taken on these new functions, suddenly to have the necessary knowledge at their disposal to say whether the permission should or should not be given.
    What will happen if this Amendment is not accepted is this. When the county authority receive a request for permission to develop they will, in fact, consult the rural district council and be guided by them as the only source of knowledge that is possessed. A man will be put to all the difficulty and possible delay of having to apply to the county council. and I think it is very important that these local authorities who have in the past discharged these planning functions with great success on the whole, should continue to do so until the new authorities are well established. For these reasons, we have put down these Amendments which are in no sense hostile to the Bill but are designed to produce a workable device for the interim period and provide a greater facility to the builder in that he could obtain all his consents in one place instead of dealing with widely dispersed rural authorities. I earnestly commend this suggestion to the House and to the Government.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mr. Digby: As one who has for a considerable number of years served on one of these planning authorities comprising representatives of a number of rural district councils, I am rather alarmed that there is any question about there being a gap between the old procedure and the new. Many of the applications which come
    1586
    before an authority of that kind—although some may seem somewhat trivial and deal with such things as tool sheds and alterations to cow stalls concern alterations which are in some degree urgent, and which it would not be possible to hold up even for a short time without the greatest inconvenience. If there is any break at all, any period during which it is difficult for these applications to be submitted, I am quite sure from my experience that there will be a tendency to evade the regulations, a tendency which up to now has fortunately not been very widespread. It would be a great pity if any encouragement were given to it the present time.
    These applications will have to be considered from two points of view, first with regard to siting and second with regard to what is called, in Clause II (3) (a), "design or external appearance." With regard to siting, I agree that there is some difficulty as the plan, if there is one already in existence, is being revised under this Bill. Nevertheless, I believe it will be quite possible to meet this difficulty because, although I do not know what the practice is in other counties, in Dorset where we have always been well ahead with our planning provisions, the consultant to the joint committee is the same as the consultant who is in touch with the county council. In fact, therefore, there will be perfect co-ordination, and any change in view with regard to the plan will be fully provided for. With regard to the question of design and external appearance, it seems important that these matters should be seen to. We have been at great pains in our area, which includes many villages built of stone, to maintain design and I can see no reason at all why the interim authorities should not go on laying down their ideas on this matter. Finally. I would like to say again how important it is that there should be no break between the old system and the new. As far as the area which I represent is concerned, I can see no difficulty at all in going on without any break
    Mr. York: May I briefly support my right hon. Friend's Amendment? I have here the figures of the average monthly applications made to my own planning authority, and in the whole district there are 15o applications, large and small, a month. Forty, as a matter of fact, come from the town of Harrogate itself. That is only one district out of a

    1587
    considerable number in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and during this interim period, when the officials of the new authority are not well aware of the general layout of the whole district, there is bound to be a good deal of time-wasting research, made by other officials if the interim development authority is not allowed to continue with these applications. There is a further point which I should like to put before the Parliamentary Secretary. The county district councils are to be consulted about the development plan. That is all to the good, but it seems to be quite unnecessary for them to transfer to the county councils the work of considering these development applications during the transitional period in order to transfer them back again at a later date. It is an extravagant waste of time and manpower, and I think that is a very strong argument for the acceptance by the Minister of my right hon. Friend's Amendment.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I associate myself with this Amendment. As the Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate, it has not been moved in any controversial or polemical spirit; it is indeed an Amendment which has the backing of what one might, perhaps, call the local government world, that is to say, local government people who, without distinction of party, are interested in good administration and government. This Amendment was tabled for discussion in the Standing Committee, but like so many other good things it fell under the guillotine, and is therefore brought within the ambit of Parliamentary discussion this afternoon for the first time. The case for it has been made fully and strongly by my right hon. Friend. He stressed the rural side, but of course this matter has its importance also from the urban aspect. What is vital, as has been so well pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr. Digby), what we must have in these matters, is continuity.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. York) gave some statistics to show the size of this problem of applications for development from his own experience in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Perhaps I may be allowed to reinforce that illustration on a more general basis. The number of applications for development in 1946, which, for many causes—not least the personality and policy of the present Minister of Health—was not what one might call
    1588
    a good year, was extremely large, as can be seen from the following figures. In the administrative county of Leicestershire it was 2,450, in that of Durham 2,10o, in Somerset no fewer than 3,500, and in the administrative county of West Sussex —administratively a county, but geographically only part of a county-—it was the same large figure of 3,500. Unless this delegation is permitted, unless the terms of this Amendment t are accepted, I can see that we are likely to have a very considerable hold-up indeed in considering and dealing with these applications. We want to see the 'principle of continuity established, and we want to see to it that good and reasonable development is not frozen for reasons of administrative bottlenecks. If we are to avoid that I think this Amendment should be incorporated in the Bill. We on this side of the House, though as I have explained we are not putting it forward in any party spirit—it is a matter which carries the good will of local government circles generally—urge that the Minister should agree to this Amendment.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Fred Marshall): I appreciate that this Amendment has not been put forward in any hostile or party spirit. We are dealing with a matter about which there can be honest differences of opinion. We are dealing with the period which will elapse between the passing of the Bill, or the appointed day, and the time the development plan is out, which will be three years forward. Those three years will undoubtedly be a difficult period for the planning authorities and for any one who has to do with planning generally, until the new planning authorities get thoroughly into their stride. What we have done, with the unanimous consent of those who have given the matter thought, has been to place planning functions squarely upon the shoulders of the county councils. It will be their responsibility, after consultation with the district councils, to prepare a development plan. We have to remember that that development plan is going to cover areas considerably wider than those covered by the ordinary planning schemes. Therefore, the only people who will know what is likely to be in that plan, will be the planning authority, that is, the county council. If we now allow the district councils to retain the interim develop-

    1589
    ment decisions, we may find that they will give decisions arid permissions which will be altogether contrary to what is likely to be in the big plan.
    The right hon. Gentleman knows that one of the effects of planning up to now, has been that local planning authorities have been covering too small an area. There has not necessarily been any coordination between them and their next-door neighbours. That is the reason why we are basing these planning units on much wider areas. I think it likely that district councils, if they are to retain the power to grant interim development permissions, will act in accordance with the manner in which they have always acted. They will give those interim development permissions—unless, of course, they consult with the county councils, as is proposed by the right hon. Gentleman in the next Amendment—in accordance with their conception of planning up to the introduction of this Bill.
    As I say, there can be two opinions about this. My own belief, and it is the belief of my right hon. Friend, is that, on balance, this responsibility for granting interim development permissions should be placed squarely upon the shoulders of the county councils, that is, the new planning authorities. It is inconceivable that, being responsible for carrying out that function, they will not consult with the district councils. Obviously, they will get to know what is in the minds of the district councils, and give the permissions in accordance with that knowledge. The right hon. Gentleman puts it the other way. He would have the district councils operating those interim development per' missions, and would place upon them the obligation to consult the county councils before they grant those permissions. As I have already said, my own feeling and that of my right hon. Friend is that it is far better to place the responsibility for granting such permissions on the shoulders of the new planning authority, because they will naturally be the people who, after the co-ordination of all the plans, will know what is likely to be in the new development plan.
    There is one further point. If the district councils were to retain the power to give these interim development permissions, it would mean that they would have to retain their present planning staffs. We all know, of course, that there is a grave
    1590
    shortage of planning staffs in the country. It would mean that for three years, at any rate, the district councils would have to continue to employ those staffs. I believe that, with good will and co-operation on all sides, we shall get over this rather difficult period. I am sure that the county councils, in shouldering this new and heavy responsibility, will not fail to consult with the district councils, in order to make the right decisions during the interim period. For these reasons, I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not press the Amendment.
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. York: Could the hon. Gentleman say how it will be physically possible for the county councils to deal with the number of applications which will be made to them?
    Mr. Marshall: The county councils will, of course, have the opportunity of sending people into the districts, and no doubt they will take advantage of that. The hon. Member knows that, after the three years have elapsed, the county councils will have to delegate many of their functions to the district councils. I have no doubt, however, that, in the meantime, the county councils will get over that difficulty by nominating someone to an area to whom would-be developers can apply. I am sure that, with goodwill on all sides, they will get over these difficulties.
    Mr. Lipson: I am very disappointed with what the Parliamentary Secretary has said because, as has been pointed out, no party issue is involved in this matter. The real issue is, which is the more practical way of dealing with this interim period? I must say that it is not very satisfactory to be told that the county councils will be able, somehow or other, to get over the impossible burden placed upon them. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, who has had a very great experience in local government, does not really think that a very satisfactory solution for a difficulty of this kind. As a matter of fact, what will happen if the Government resist this Amendment is that there will be an administrative breakdown, so far as the county councils are concerned, and I think the hon. Gentleman had better face that fact. After all, he has reminded

    1591
    us that a great responsibility is being placed upon the county councils. Does he now propose to add to that responsibility, at a time when their attention should be given to their major responsibilities, the difficult task of dealing with countless development permissions, about which they will know nothing and for which, in point of fact, he knows that they will have insufficient staff? He has suggested that he is going to filch the staffs of the county districts to carry out this work, and, at the same time, has reminded the House that the county districts will have a great deal of work to do because of the powers delegated to them. The Parliamentary Secretary ought to look at this matter again with a view to reversing his decision. It is a matter of what is practical. What the Amendment proposes is the practical way of dealing with the matter, which is the reverse of what the Parliamentary Secretary has said.
    Mr. Thomas Macpherson; Speaking as a representative of a non-county borough in Essex, I must say that I have a good deal of sympathy with this Amendment. It is my opinion, and the opinion of my people, that there will be an administrative breakdown and inevitable chaos if every individual application for permission to alter a house or a shed has to be sent to the county council at Chelmsford. The thing is fantastic, and they have not the staff to deal with it Everyone who has had anything to do with housing for the last few years will know that one of our greatest obstacles has been the shortage of experienced, trained, technical staffs. In our local borough councils, the town clerk and his assistants have a personal knowledge of the applications; they do not need to look up a file on every occasion. My own borough has to deal with over 1,000 applications a year. What will happen when all applications from every borough and urban district of Essex have to go to Chelmsford, I do not know. I sincerely hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will provide some better solution to the problem than the one he has just suggested.
    Mr. Frank Byers: I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider the view which he has put forward. A county that goes forward with
    1592
    a development plan will not be affected; the Amendment deals only with the case where the county does not go forward with a development plan. There will be a hiatus and an administrative breakdown, and a lack of a development plan by the county while power will not have been given to the county districts to go forward. The Parliamentary Secretary has not answered the question of what is to happen in the interim period. I would illustrate the situation by supposing that one had three brigades to do a job of work, and decided to put the divisional headquarters on top of them. One would hardly say that the brigades were not to do anything until the head quarters had been established. From the point of view of actual planning, I ask that the Parliamentary Secretary should look into this matter again, in a much more favourable light.
    Colonel Wheatley: I would reinforce the point that there will be administrative chaos, if some arrangement is not made for the interval between the county taking over and the districts giving up their job. We in our districts have had hundreds of applications for development for housing. We think they will be greatly increased in the near future. All this cannot possibly be turned over to the county council. I have been a member of a county planning committee, and of a borough planning committee. A number of hon. Members have directed the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the absolute certainty of an administrative breakdown if some very simple machinery is not set up to get over the break in the planning arrangements. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will think over the matter again.
    Mr. John Paton: I also ask the Parliamentary Secretary to remember that Members on this side of the House will be in difficulties if this matter is forced to a Division. Nothing in the Amendment raises any question of development principle at all. If it is accepted, it will not interfere with the working of the Bill, and there is nothing to make the Parliamentary Secretary dig his heels in and resist it. Members who have had a great deal of experience in local authority work are uneasy about the effect that will follow if the Amendment, or something like it, is not accepted. I add my appeal that the Parliamentary

    1593
    Secretary should consult his right hon. Friend. If the form of words proposed is not acceptable, another form of words should be evolved and introduced at a later stage to cover the essential points. All that is involved is a matter of practical expediency and there is a necessity for some provision of the kind.
    Mr. Beechman: After the appeals that have been made to him from all sides of the House the Parliamentary Secretary should reconsider this matter. In the case of the planning authority with which I am acquainted, the machinery indicated by the Government will mean that case after case, already fully considered and fully understood by that committee, will have to go miles away to a new committee which cannot be properly equipped to deal with those matters. People will have to travel after their cases, and thus great delay will be involved in cases which are on the verge of going forward.
    Mr. Dumpleton: The Parliamentary Secretary is being pressed on all sides to give way on the Amendment. I should like to say a word or two in his support and to express the hope that he will remain firm in resisting the Amendment. I completely disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. Paton) that there is no question of principle. The question of principle is: Who, during the interim period of three years, is the responsible authority for making the survey and preparing the plan? Where is that responsibility to lie? I also claim, with other hon. Members, to have had experience of prac-
    tical planning, and to me there is no question that the body responsible for making the development plan, and carrying out the survey, should also be the body completely responsible for giving the decision during the interim period. It is fantastic to suggest that the body could not make organisational arrangements in order to meet all the objections that have been raised about the numbers of applications coming in to the county. I am amazed at the suggestions that have been made by hon. Members. Hon. Members have spoken of their own local authorities. My own experience is that a competent local authority or county council can have consultations with the district councils and make adequate organisational arrangements for dealing with the situation.
    Sir John Mellor: Only one speech has been made in support of the Parliamentary Secretary. Neither the hon. Member who made the speech nor the Parliamentary Secretary himself has given the House any guidance on how the practical difficulties can be overcome. Those difficulties are largely geographical. Reference has been made to good will and co-operation as the only hope upon which reliance can be placed. I am sure there will be good will and co-operation in plenty, but no amount of these can overcome the results of this most unsatisfactory provision. I warmly support the Amendment and hope that it will be pressed to a Division.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 101; Noes, 260.

    Division No. 212.

    AYES.

    [8.31 p.m

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Aitken, Hon. Max

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Lancaster, Col. C. G

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R

    Fleming, Sqn,-Ldr. E. L.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Fletcher, W. (Bury)

    Linstead, H. N.

    Barlow, Sir J.

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Lipson, D. L.

    Beechman, N. A

    Gage, C.

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Bennett, Sir P.

    Galbraith, Cmdr. T D.

    Lucas, Major Sir J.

    Bower, N.

    Gates, Maj. E. E.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

    George, Lady M, Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

    Glyn, Sir R.

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Gridley, Sir A.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W

    Byers, Frank

    Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

    Manningham-Buller, R E

    Carson, E.

    Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

    Marlowe, A. A. H

    Challen, C.

    Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

    Marples, A. E.

    Clarke, Col. R. S.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E

    Hollis, M. C

    Maude, J. C.

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Holmes, Sit J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Medlicott, F

    Cuthbert, W. N.

    Howard, Hon. A.

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

    Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

    De la Bère, R.

    Hurd, A.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Digby, S. W.

    Jarvis, Sir J

    Neven-Spence, Sir B

    Drayson, G. B.

    Jennings, R

    Nield, B (Chester)

    Drewe, C.

    Kendall, W. D

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H

    Orr-Ewing, I. L

    Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W

    Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Smith, E. P (Ashford)

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

    Pensonby, Col. C. E

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    White, Sir D. (Fareham)

    Prescott, Stanley

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Studholme, H. G.

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge,

    Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Teeling, William

    York, C.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Vane, W. M. F

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Shephard, S. (Newark)

    Wadsworth, G.

    Lieut.-Colonel Thorp and

    Shepherd, W S. (Bucklow)

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Major Ramsey.

    NOES.

    Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

    Edwards, John (Blackburn)

    McAllister, G.

    Allen, A. C, (Bosworth)

    Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

    McEntee, V. La T.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

    Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

    Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

    McKinlay, A. S.

    Anderson, F. (Whilehaven)

    Ewart, R.

    Maclean, N. (Govan)

    Attewell, H. C.

    Fairhurst, F.

    McLeavy, F.

    Austin, H. Lewis

    Fernyhough, E

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Forman, J. C.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.

    Ayles, W. H.

    Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

    Mann, Mrs. J.

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs B

    Freeman, Peter (Newport)

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Gaitskell, H T. N.

    Maninng, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Balfour, A.

    Ganley, Mrs. C. S

    Marquand, H. A.

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Marshall, F. (Brightside)

    Barstow, P G.

    Gilzean, A

    Medland, H M.

    Barton, C.

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Battley, J. R.

    Gooch, E. G

    Middleton, Mrs. L

    Bechervaise, A. E.

    Gordan-Walker, P. C

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)

    Monslow, W

    Benson, G.

    Grenfell, D. R.

    Moody, A. S.

    Berry, H.

    Grierson, E.

    Morley, R.

    Beswick, F.

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon H. (Lewisham, E.)

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

    Mort, D. L

    Binns, J.

    Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

    Moyle, A.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Guest, Dr, L. Haden

    Naylor, T. E.

    Bottomley, A. G.

    Guy, W. H.

    Neal, H (Claycross)

    Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

    Haire, John E (Wycombe)

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

    Hale, Leslie

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Hall, W. G.

    Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J (Derby)

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Brown, George (Belper)

    Hardman, D. R.

    O'Brien, T.

    Buchanan, G.

    Hardy, E. A.

    Oldfield, W. H

    Burke, W. A.

    Harrison, J.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Paget, R. T.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

    Chamberlain, R. A

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Champion, A. J.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Palmer, A M. F.

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Holman, P

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Clitherow, Dr R.

    House, G.

    Parker, J

    Cobb, F. A.

    Hoy, J.

    Parkin, B. T.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Hubbard, T.

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Colman, Miss G. M

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Pearson, A.

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Hughes, H. D. (W'Iverh'pton, W.)

    Pearl, Capt. T. F

    Cook, T. F.

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

    Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

    Irving, W. J.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camberwell, N.W.)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Porter, G. (Leeds)

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Jay, D. P. T.

    Price, M. Philips

    Corvedale, Viscount

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Dagger, G.

    Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Daines, P.

    John, W.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

    Ranger, J.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Rees-Williams, D. R

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Keenan, W.

    Reeves, J.

    Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Kenyon, C

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

    Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Kinley, J.

    Robens, A.

    Deer, G.

    Kirby, B. V

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Lavers, S.

    Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

    Diamond, J.

    Lawson, Rt. Hon J. J

    Royle, C.

    Dobbie, W.

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Sargood, R

    Dodds, N. N.

    Leonard, W

    Scollan, T.

    Donovan, T.

    Leslie, J. R

    Shackleton, E. A A

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Levy, B. W.

    Sharp, Granville

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

    Shurmer, P

    Durbin, E. F. M.

    Lewis, T. (Southampton)

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

    Dye, S.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

    Logan, D. G.

    Silverman, S S. (Nelson)

    Edelman, M.

    Lyne, A. W.

    Simmons, C J.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    McAdam, W

    Smith, C (Colchester)

    1596

    1597

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Wilkes, L.

    Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

    Titterington, M. F

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Snow, Capt. J. W

    Tolley, L.

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Sorensen, R. W

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Stamford, W.

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T (Don Valley)

    Steele, T.

    Vernon, Maj. W. F.

    Williamson, T.

    Stephen, C.

    Viant, S. P.

    Wills, Mrs. E. A

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Walkden, E.

    Woodburn, A.

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Woods, G. S.

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Warbey, W. N.

    Wyatt, W.

    Swingler, S.

    Watson, W. M.

    Yates, V. F.

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Weitzman, D.

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

    Zilliacus, K.

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

    West, D. G.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Mr Collindridge and

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Mr. Popplewell.

    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I beg to move, in page 11, line 27, after "buildings." to insert:
    "other than agricultural buildings, defined in Section two of the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928."
    Subsection (3, a) of this Clause provides that where permission is granted for the extension, alteration or erection of a building, the approval of the local planning authority may be required with respect to the design or external appearance. The purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that the approval of the local authority to the design and external appearance of buildings shall not be extended to agricultural buildings other than farm dwelling houses. We grant that the design of a farmhouse which is being erected might reasonably be subjected to the aesthetic control of the planning authority, but we say that the planning authority ought not to have power to regard the aesthetic appearance of farm buildings and to say, for instance, that a Dutch barn on a farm or a silo ought not to be allowed because its appearance is utilitarian and not in accordance with the aesthetic standards of the local planning authority concerned. The words in the Amendment are taken from the Rating and Valuation Apportionment Act, 1928, and they are imported because they specifically exclude farm dwelling houses.
    Commander Maitland: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Mr. F. Marshall: I am sorry this Amendment has been moved. I think we all agree that farm buildings can be a very beautiful feature of the rural landscape. I, and many other hon. Members, no doubt, have enjoyed their beautiful lines and colour, and the way in which they fall into the general tone of the landscape. That effect may have been achieved not
    1598
    by conscious effort but by development. It certainly exists, and it is one of the grandest features of the English countryside. What the Amendment seeks to do is to remove from all control the design of farm buildings. It means that any farmer can erect any kind of an old shack, corrugated iron and wooden places, and all sorts of things, irrespective of their effect on the landscape. I should have thought that anyone interested in farming would have been rather eager to preserve a fine old tradition in farm buildings, and would have wished the design of those farm buildings to be submitted to control. We believe that control of design should be exerted. The designs of course, will be submitted to the agricultural committees concerned, and not to the local authorities. That should satisfy the hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley), and induce him to withdraw the Amendment. We believe that in the intersts of the rural landscape, the design of farm buildings should be controlled in order to preserve and increase the beauty of future buildings, and, for that reason, we cannot agree to the Amendment.
    8.45 p.m.
    Brigadier Rayner: I very much hope that my hon. Friend will not withdraw this Amendment. Speaking as an owner-occupier in a small way, I am not averse to control, as control, but I am very keen on keeping planners' noses out of the farmyard as much as possible. [Laughter.] I daresay hon. Members opposite are laughing at the thought of instances of crass ignorance on the part of inspectors and officials who are sent out to deal with questions that arise on farms. At the present time a neighbour of mine is trying to build a new bull house. First, he was sent a questionnaire containing 52 questions, one of which asked how many

    1599
    w.c.'s he proposed to provide. In addition to that, a young inspector came down and asked him what the arrangements for milking would be. I anticipate, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that you are about to rule me out of Order, so I will not continue with that. I feel, however, that my point that inspectors who just do not know their jobs so often come down to afflict farmers is an important one. For that reason, it would be a very good thing for agriculture if the Minister, in his courteous way, would accept this Amendment.
    Mr. York: I quite realise the difficulty in which the Minister finds himself. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the difficulty in passing, namely, that he wishes to prevent the erection of the unsuitable and non-utilitarian hovels into which animals are sometimes put. I think my hon. Friends are thoroughly in agreement with him there. Our fear—and it is a fear which is shared by practically everybody who has anything to do with the erection of farm buildings—is that the planning authority will be influenced against what I might describe as a new idea in farm buildings. Today there are lines of thought on the subject of farm buildings which diverge completely from the old-fashioned idea of how farm buildings should be built. For example, there is a completely new trend of thought, that so far as possible the entire farm should be put under one roof. That means a vast expansion and a large span, and it may well be that certain members of the planning authority would consider it to be unsightly, and would consider that too small a span would be very much more beautiful. There we have the aesthetic man and the practical man at variance. We want to avoid the amenity man winning the day over the man who holds the new ideas which are coming into the agricultural industry. If the Bill remains without this Amendment there is every possibility of the town planner winning the day. Although I have admitted that there are difficulties in our Amendment, I cannot feel that there are any safeguards in the Bill to stop the town planner preventing experiment and development along the best lines in providing new farm buildings, and in experimenting along the lines which we desire.
    Colonel Ropner: I, too, realise that the Minister has to face certain difficulties in accepting this Amendment.
    1600
    The House should appreciate, however that the arguments which the Parliament ary Secretary used are contradictory. At the outset of his speech he claimed, I think rightly, that a considerable measure of beauty is the general rule for the farm buildings of this country. In the vase majority of cases those farm building have been designed and constructed without any measure of control. His argument went to show that it could be left to the common sense of farmers to ensure that their buildings are not unsightly. I hope, in view of what has been said, and particularly in view of the remarks just made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. York)—who quite rightly pointed out the trend of thought which is being concentrated on the design of farm buildings—that we shall have another word from the Minister before we leave this Amendment.
    Mr. Silkin: I much appreciate the spirit in which this particular Amendment is being discussed. As several hon. Gentlemen have said, there is a conflict of view here. On the one hand, we are anxious to safeguard the beauty of the countryside. That is one of our most precious possessions, and it is something which every hon. Member of this House is anxious to see preserved to the fullest possible extent. That can only be done by a measure of control. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] If we allow people to build freely, without any control at all, we know what we may expect in certain quarters. We may expect shacks, and tin roofs, and all kinds of monstrosities perpetrated in some of the most beautiful parts of the country.
    Mr. York: The right hon. Gentleman has just made a most dangerous statement. He has just said we may expect tin roofs. That is the very point we were making. We are frightened that the planners will put up tin roofs, and that half of the new buildings will have them.
    Mr. Silkin: I think that my broad statement is true, and that everyone who has given consideration to the matter would agree that, without some form of control, there is a danger that the beauty of the countryside will be spoiled. It has to be controlled. I think that most speakers have recognised that. Even the hon. and gallant Member for Totnes (Brigadier Rayner) has recognised that there has to

    1601
    be some control, only he does not want inspectors in his farmyard. Is it possible to draw a line as between certain farm buildings and others? It seems to me that there is a possible line of demarcation that can be made by regulation or by development order—a purely temporary structure, for instance. Obviously, if it were only a temporary structure one would not want to impose planning control on it; although I recognise that it could have a very serious effect on the amenities. But if it should be a temporary building, and is licensed as such there would be no need to exercise planning control. Possibly there are other types of buildings which may be exempted from control similarly. But, as I say, that can be done by regulation.
    I agree with the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. York) that there should not be any arbitrary censorship of taste. I wholly agree with him that, if a building serves its purpose, it should not be rejected merely because it does not conform to the aesthetic views of the planning authority. One has safeguards against that. One safeguard is the appeal to the Ministry. There is an appeal, and at the Ministry one has a uniform code and, I hope, a reasonable code. The Minister is answerable to Parliament, and if he adopted the policy of refusing permission to put up a building because that happened to be of a particular design which he did not like, he would soon hear about it in this House—quite rightly. That is one form of restriction on the activities of the members of the planning authorities.
    Another suggestion is that we might ask that the planning authorities should be required to consult the agricultural executive committees, which are composed of practical people who realise the needs of the farming industry. I should be prepared to consider safeguards of that kind. I suggest that there must be some form of general control to prevent the worst abuses of building in rural areas. The House will agree that almost more harm can be done by bad building in a rural area than in an urban area. For those reasons, I hope that the Amendment will not be pressed. I give the House the assurance that the safeguards put forward will be seriously considered and provided for in the regulations, and that the farming community need have no fear of any im-
    1602
    proper interference with their legitimate activities on the score of planning.
    Sir P. Hannon: I am sure that every Member in the House is anxious to preserve the amenities and attractions of the countryside—this green and pleasant land of England. I hope that after the depredations of the Minister it will still remain a green and pleasant land. I have much sympathy with the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the local agricultural committees and the National Farmers' Union, and I hope that by these means we can get rid of the difficulty of spoiling agricultural buildings. Anyone who is familiar with the Cotswolds will know how important it is to preserve those beautiful buildings, which go back in the ages and have survived the difficulties of the times. Those buildings and the traditions they represent ought to be preserved in the days in which we live. I hope that the Minister will accept the Amendment, and that he will do everything he possibly can in his capacity as Minister responsible for the Act when this horrible, atrocious and detestable Bill is passed, to preserve all the amenities of the countryside. He will have the sympathy of the House in giving effect to the principles he has just enunciated in his speech.
    Mr. Vane: I was not very convinced by the Minister's speech, because it largely amounted to a contradiction. In the first place, he praised the traditional building in the countryside, and then went on to say that in order to preserve that tradition it was necessary to have some control, without showing any reason why it was likely to fall by the wayside without control. He made no complaint at all that the standard of building was falling. What his control will mean is simply further obstacles being put in the way of getting permission from the many authorities before one can build. It means further obstacles and further delay. I was not very convinced when he said he was going to call in aid the agricultural executive committees. We all hope that they are composed of practical farmers, but farming is a very different thing from reading plans. As every architect knows, a client can easily be taken in by putting the right colour on a plan. It is not easy for amateur architects to read plans. I do not think this is at all a suitable task to give to members of the agricultural

    1603
    executive committees. The Minister says that he wants this control, but he has already got the control under the by-laws, and the local surveyors and staff are, surely the best people to assess whether agricultural buildings are suitable or not for their purpose. It is surely unnecessary to put on a further control above what is already there and necessary.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. C. Williams: I believe there is considerable agreement in the House that we want to preserve the amenities of the countryside. As a general rule, the countryman has a much better aesthetic taste than a townsman. A great handicap today to one wishing to put up a building is not only getting the required materials, but the number of plans which have to be passed. That is holding up the production of food as never before. If officials are required to look at the buildings further development of the countryside will be held up, and although I welcome the Minister's statement I think we had better leave the countrymen to look after these matters, and allow them to get on. Whether we divide or not on this Amendment, I hope that we shall be able to prevent this further imposition on the farmers.
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: We have had a useful, though short, discussion on this Amendment, and as the Minister has gone a long way to allay our fears, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: In page 11, line 37, leave out from the beginning, to "for," in line 38.—[Mr. Silkin.]
    Mr. Silkin: I beg to move, in page 11. line 42, at the end, to insert:
    "a development order may direct that any enactment passed before the passing of this Act, or any regulations, orders or bye-laws made (whether before or after the passing of this Act) under any such enactment, shall not apply to any development specified in the order, or shall apply thereto subject to such modifications as may be so specified."
    These words provide that a development order may suspend an enactment or modify an enactment, regulations, orders, or by-laws for the purpose of improving development. The words largely follow the form which is common to other
    1604
    Measures, although there is a slight extension so that there may be modifications of an enactment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 12, line 6, leave out "suspending," and insert "excluding or modifying."—[Mr. Silkin.]
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I beg to move, in page 13, line 2, to leave out from "prescribing," to the second "the."
    I suppose as time goes on one's capacity for surprise at what the Socialist Government and the Socialist Party might do becomes reduced. But I confess that I find it surprising, in a matter of this sort; that the right hon. Gentleman should be seeking to introduce nothing more and nothing less than degrees of class distinction. I suppose it is really in conformity with recent utterances of the Minister of Fuel and Power. If hon. Members look at this Clause they will see that, by it, provision may be made by a development order for prescribing the classes of persons by whom" application may be made to the local planning authority for permission to develop land. Who is to be excluded from this? Are the Communist Party to be excluded?
    Mr. Gallacher: No.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Is the Communist Party to be one of the classes of persons by whom no application can be made for permission to develop land?
    Mr. Piratin: The hon. and learned Gentleman has referred to my party. As a great landowner, I will fight to the last ditch to preserve my rights.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The hon. Member has used the right words in referring to a ditch and he might find himself in it. It is right that we should have an answer on the question of why we are to have class distinctions in a Bill of this sort. What classes are to be excluded? Why is this power sought to differentiate between different categories of persons? It is right that, in different areas, permission should be granted on different principles. In one area you may grant permission more readily for the building of factories, than for the building of houses. But why should the classes of persons who apply for permission be prescribed? I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman inserted these words. But I do pray

    1605
    in aid in support of this Amendment, to leave out the words "classes of persons by whom," the attitude adopted by the Joint Under-Secretary for Scotland who, when the same Amendment was moved before a Committee, accepted it. I hope the right hon. Gentleman, adhering to the principle of collective responsibility, will follow the precedent set by his Scottish colleagues, and even at this late hour, in spite of the imminent operation of the Guillotine, will announce that he intends to accept the Amendment and follow the example so well set to him across the Border. If he does so, I am sure he will receive the approval of the Scottish Members even though some belong to the Communist Party.
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Mr. Silkin: These words were put in for a purpose, but not for the purpose which the hon. and learned Member, suggests. There is no suggestion here of class differentiation. It is necessary to ensure that people who make applications for development should have some interest in the proposed land, or should have the possibility of carrying out development. It is reasonable that the time of local planning authorities should not be taken up in dealing with applications for development, in respect of land which the person who is making the application has no interest in, or is not likely to have any interest in.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Does the right hon. Gentleman really contemplate that in these days people are so fond of filling in forms that persons who have no interest in development will fill in applications and send them to local authorities in order to obtain permission to develop land which does not belong to them?
    Mr. Silkin: The hon. and learned Gentleman would be surprised at the number of people who seem to enjoy doing so, and who have possibly a remote hope or flimsy expectation that somehow they will assume an interest in the property or that they may he able to dispose of a consent. It may well be that a person having a valid consent may think that he has something which is negotiable, and may then proceed to carry on business on the basis that he has consent to carry out development in respect of land in which he has no interest. These words are inserted in
    1606
    order to enable the Minister to lay down that in order that an application may be made a person should have some kind of interest. If the hon. and learned Gentleman says that the persons who have no interest will never apply, then these words do no harm, but in fact experience has shown that there is a certain kind of speculative interest in what a local authority may be prepared to do, and I think the words are worth having in the Bill.
    Mr. Henry Strauss: The right hon. Gentleman has not, I think, really given an answer to my hon. and learned Friend. While I do not suspect the Minister of any sinister intention I think he has inserted words which would enable a Minister in his place who had a sinister intention to work great mischief. Although all the right hon. Gentleman wishes to do is to ensure that an applicant has a sufficient interest in the land, the words he has put in the Bill would enable him to exclude classes of persons even if they had a sufficient interest in the land. Although I fully accept that that is not in the least the Minister's intention, it is a possibility tinder the words of the Bill as they stand, and in that respect they are very much too wide. I think also that the Minister slightly misled the House—I am quite sure inadvertently—in suggesting that somebody with no sufficient interest might obtain a consent in which he could then trade. The ability to apply for something is not equivalent to the ability to obtain it, and it would be a perfectly proper question to ask any applicant to state what his interest in the land was. If a person had no interest, then, even though he could make an application, there would be no chance of his application succeeding.
    My main point is that although the right hon. Gentleman's intention is the perfectly innocent one he says it is—which, of course, I accept—he will nevertheless see that the actual words of the Bill as they stand are hopelessly too wide because they would enable him, or anybody in his position, to exclude people who had an interest in the land and who could very properly claim to make an application. Therefore, though he has no intention himself of making a wrong use of this provision, I hope he will reconsider the words and introduce more appropriate ones.
    9.15 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: I think hon. Members on the other side are entirely exaggerating the character of this proposal. It should be made clear that the classes of persons here mentioned bear no relation to the classes of society described by hon. Members opposite. Classes of persons means particular individuals, and if the Minister had used the word "person" in describing the classes there would have been no difficulty.
    Mr. H. Strauss: There would have been exactly the same trouble, because there is no reason why the Minister should be able to exclude any one from making an application except for a good reason. If he wants to exclude people who have no interest in the land, that would be a good reason, but under the words in the Clause he would be able to exclude anybody.
    Mr. Gallacher: If the hon. and learned Gentleman stretches a point in that manner, he could stretch it until the whole thing became ridiculous. No Bill passes through the House into which legal men cannot introduce arguments of that kind. The obvious thing is that, at a particular moment, it may be necessary to exclude certain persons who have no direct interest in the particular development, but the reason why the hon. and learned Gentleman has raised this matter, is because at the mention of the word "class" the Tory Party get themselves into difficulties. I say that they are exaggerating the whole thing. I hope that only persons of value to a development plan will be allowed to participate. May I in conclusion express the hope that hon. Members on the other side will have a plan for tonight, and that we will not have the awful debacle which we had a couple of weeks ago?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: This is a point to which we drew attention in Standing Committee, and I confess that when I moved the Amendment at the time, I was not sufficiently class conscious to understand what was meant by the various classes described in this Bill. I understand that, in my absence, the Minister has defended the proposals in the Bill and has given his reason for desiring a retention of these words. If is a very remarkable thing— and perhaps this will interest the hon.
    1608
    Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher)—that in a similar Bill going through the Scottish Grand Committee the Government have accepted this Amendment which we are now moving. Whether it is that Scotland is infinitely less class-conscious than England or whether the logic which has grown up and endured in that fertile and lovely country compels people to see the justice of this argument, I do not know, but I cannot conceive if it is proper in Scotland to adopt this it would not be equally proper for England to follow such an example.
    I do not like the Bill describing classes and saying that according to the class to which a person belongs, he shall be allowed this or that opportunity of making an application or exercising his democratic rights. As an example I wholly dissent from the view, which is apparently held by His Majesty's Government, that we on this side of the House, because we belong to a certain class politically, are not to be allowed adequate opportunity to express ourselves on this Bill. When 9.30 comes we will be denied by the action of those who sit opposite us, any further participation in the discussion of this matter at this stage.
    Mr. Gallacher: The right hon. Gentleman has only nine minutes to go.
    Mr. Morrison: That shows quite clearly the dangers of the legislation we are now considering, because if the Government can impose this Guillotine procedure on an institution as old and as famous as Parliament, there is no saying what the Minister might do when he has the power to distinguish between classes who make an application. We have clearly been rushed into the totalitarian age, and it is with the greatest suspicion that we view this step by the Minister to get the population divided into two sections, those who are allowed freedom to make application for planning consent and those who must have the Guillotine procedure applied to them. There may be two opinions about this matter. Although the right hon. Gentleman regards us on this side of the House, according to the statements of his colleagues, as not being capable of discussing the Bill at proper length, he has, nevertheless, attempted to meet us on many points. I am grateful for that consideration.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): The right hon. Gentleman appears to be discussing something other than the Amendment which is before the House.
    Mr. Morrison: I may perhaps be going a little wide of the subject matter, but I am dealing with the attempt to differentiate among sections of the population called classes, in their right to freedom of speech and to make application for planning. I was using that as an illustration of the action of His Majesty's Government at the present time in truncating our discussions to this deplorable extent. As I have levelled that criticism against the Government I humbly suggest that my remarks were not perhaps so much out of Order. It might be of interest to the House to know that many of the succeeding Government Amendments will be concessions to our point of view.
    The point we have to decide is whether to permit the Bill to go forward with the invidious segregation of people who apply for development into different classes. I am all against that. If the Minister has further opportunity to consider the matter I hope he will come to the conclusion that in the planning world, if not in Parliament, all people are equal and that planning ought to achieve the greatest good of the greatest number irrespective of the class of the community to which they belong. One of the objects of good planning should be to ensure that someone in a favoured position of ownership or possession of land should not use his
    temporary position to oppress people less numerically strong than himself and less favourably situated. Only by allowing all sections of the people to make proper application to the Minister will the planning authorities ultimately secure that equality of consideration which will yield the total result of planning for the nation as a whole.
    If there were a continuation in the planning world of this invidious distinction between those who are given an opportunity to express themselves and those who are not, such as has been evidenced in our proceedings here, I should deplore it. I hope that the House will come to the conclusion that it is dealing with a matter which lies very close to the roots of our planning responsibilities. Hon. Members opposite exult for the moment because their numbers are temporarily large. It may not always be so. They ought to use their last endeavours on this procedure to support us in moving this Amendment, and in securing for the future that all classes of people will have an equal chance to make applications for planning permissions, and that, equally, all persons who are elected to this Parliament will have a proper chance of expressing their opinion on all matters of public importance.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 297; Noes, 114.

    Division No. 213.]

    AYES.

    [9.27 p.m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Blyton, W. R

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Adams, W T. (Hammersmith South)

    Bottomley, A. G.

    Corvedale, Viscount

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Bowden, Fig.-Off, H. W.

    Daggar, G.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Bowen, R.

    Daines, P.

    Alpass, J H.

    Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Braman, E. A.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

    Attewell, H. C.

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R

    Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

    Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Austin, H. Lewis

    Brown, George (Belper)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Bruce, Maj. D. W T

    Deer, G.

    Ayles, W. H.

    Buchanan, G.

    Delargy, H. J.

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs B

    Burke, W. A.

    Diamond, J.

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

    Dobbie, W.

    Baird J.

    Byers, Frank

    Dodds, N. N

    Balfour, A.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Donovan, T.

    Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J

    Chamberlain, R. A.

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Barstow, P. G

    Champion, A. J.

    Dumpleton, C. W

    Barton, C.

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Durbin, E. F. M.

    Battley, J. R.

    Clitherow, Dr. R.

    Dye, S.

    Bechervaise, A. E

    Cobb, F. A.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

    Bellenger, Rt Hon. F. J.

    Cocks, F. S.

    Edelman, M.

    Benson, G.

    Collindridge, F.

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Berry, H.

    Colman, Miss G. M.

    Edwards, John (Blackburn)

    Beswick, F.

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Bing, G. H. C

    Cook, T. F.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Binns, J.

    Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

    Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

    Blackburn, A. R

    Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camberwell, N.W.)

    Ewart, R.

    Fairhurst, F.

    Lipson, D. L.

    Shackleton, E. A. A

    Fernyhough, E.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

    Sharp, Granville

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Logan, D. G.

    Shurmer, P

    Forman, J. C.

    Lyne, A. W.

    Silkin, Rt. Hon. L

    Foster, W. (Wigan)

    McAdam, W

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

    McAllister, G.

    Silverman, S S. (Nelson)

    Freeman, Peter (Newport)

    McEntee, V. La T

    Simmons, C. J.

    Gaitskell, H. T. N

    McGhee, H. G

    Skeffington, A. M

    Gallacher, W.

    Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

    Skinnard, F. W.

    Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

    McKinlay, A. S.

    Smith, C (Colchester)

    George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

    Maclean, N. (Govan)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

    Gibbins, J.

    McLeavy, F.

    Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Macpherson, T. (Romford)

    Solley, L. J.

    Gilzean, A.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Sorensen, R. W

    Glanville, J. E (Consett)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.

    Soskice, Maj. Sir F

    Gooch, E. G.

    Mann, Mrs. J.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Goodrich, H. E.

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Stamford, W.

    Gordon-Walker, P. C

    Manning, Mrs. L, (Epping)

    Steele, T.

    Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)

    Marquand, H. A.

    Stephen, C.

    Grenfell, D. R

    Marshall, F. (Brightside)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Grey, C. F.

    Martin, J. H.

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Grierson, E.

    Medland, H. M

    Summerskill, Dr. Edith

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Swingler, S.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

    Middleton, Mrs. L.

    Symonds, A. L.

    Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden

    Monslow, W.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Guy, W. H.

    Moody, A. S.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

    Morley, R.

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Hale, Leslie

    Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

    Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

    Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

    Moyle, A.

    Thomas, I. O (Wrekin)

    Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

    Murray, J. D

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Hardman, D. R.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. G R (Ed'b'gh, E.)

    Hardy, E. A.

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Harrison, J.

    Nichol, Mrs M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Titterington, M. F.

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Nicholls, H R. (Stratford)

    Tolley, L.

    Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

    Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

    Turner-Samuels, M

    Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J (Derby)

    Ungoed-Thomas, L

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Vernon, Maj. W. F

    Hobson, C. R.

    O'Brien, T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Holman, P.

    Oldfield, W. H

    Wadsworth, G.

    Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

    Oliver, G. H

    Walkden, E.

    House, G.

    Paget, R. T

    Walker, G. H.

    Hoy, J.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Hubbard, T.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Warbey, W. N.

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Watson, W. M.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Pargiter, G. A

    Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

    Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

    Parker, J

    Weitzman, D.

    Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

    Parkin, B. T.

    Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

    Irving, W. J.

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Wells, W. T (Walsall)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Pearson, A.

    West, D. G.

    Jay, D. P. T.

    Peart, Capt. T. F.

    Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Piratin, P.

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

    Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

    John, W.

    Porter, E. (Warrington)

    Wilkes, L.

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

    Porter, G. (Leeds)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

    Price, M. Philips

    Willey, F. T (Sonderland)

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Williams, D J. (Neath)

    Keenan, W.

    Pryde, D. J.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Kendall, W. D

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T (Don Valley)

    Kenyon, C

    Ranger, J.

    Williamson, T.

    King, E. M.

    Rees-Williams, D. R

    Wills, Mrs. E. A

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

    Reeves, J.

    Woodburn, A

    Kinley, J.

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Woods, G. S

    Kirby, B. V.

    Rhodes, H.

    Wyatt, W.

    Lavers, S.

    Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

    Yates, V. F

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Robens, A.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Leonard, W.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Younger, Hon. Kenneth

    Leslie, J. R

    Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

    Zilliacus, K.

    Lever, N. H

    Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

    Levy, B. W.

    Royle, C.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Lewis, A W. J. (Upton)

    Sargood, R

    Mr. Snow and Mr. Popplewell.

    Lewis, T. (Southampton)

    Scollan, T.

    NOES.

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Aitken, Hon. Max

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

    De la Bère, R.

    Amory, D. Heathcoat

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T.

    Digby, S. W.

    Assheton, Rt. Hon. R

    Carson, E

    Drayson, G. B

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Challen, C.

    Drewe, C.

    Barlow, Sir J.

    Clarke, Col. R. S

    Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)

    Bennett, Sir P

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

    Eccles, D. M.

    Birch, Nigel

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Bower, N.

    Cooper-Key, E. M

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A

    Cuthbert, W. N

    Erroll, F. J.

    1612

    1613

    Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

    Law, Rt Hon. R. K.

    Ramsay, Maj. S.

    Fletcher, W. (Bury)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

    Linstead, H. N.

    Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

    Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

    Low, Brig. A. R. W.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Gage, C.

    Lucas, Major Sir J.

    Sanderson, Sir F.

    Galbraith, Cmdr. T D.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Shephard, S. (Newark)

    Gates, Maj. E. E

    MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

    Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W

    Glyn, Sir R.

    Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

    Smith, E. P (Ashford)

    Gridley, Sir A

    Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

    Manningham-Buller, R. E

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

    Marples, A. E.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. F. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Teeling, William

    Hogg, Hon. Q

    Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

    Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

    Hollis, M. C

    Medlicott, F.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

    Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Hope, Lord J.

    Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

    Walker-Smith, D.

    Howard, Hon A.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

    Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

    Neven-Spence, Sir B.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J

    Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

    Nield, B (Chester)

    White, Sir D. (Fareham)

    Hurd, A

    Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Jarvis, Sir J.

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Jennings, R.

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    York, C.

    Lambert, Hon G.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Lancaster, Col. C G.

    Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Langford-Holt, J

    Prescott, Stanley

    Mr. Studholme and

    Lieut.-Colonel Thorp.

    Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

    It being after half-past Nine o'Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order made upon 3rd March, successively to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given.

    CLAUSE 15.—(Applications to determine whether permission required.)
    Amendments made: In page 16, line 6, after "Act," insert:
    "and, it so, whether such an application is required having regard to the provisions of the development order."
    In line 19, after "land," insert:
    "or that an application for permission is required as aforesaid in respect thereof."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 16.—(Supplementary provisions as to grant of permission.)
    Amendments made: In page 17, line 19, at end, insert:
    "within the meaning of Section sixty-nine of this Act."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 18.—(Compensation for refusal of permission in certain cases.)
    Amendments made: In page 19, line 28, leave out from "the," to "the," in line 30, and insert:
    "value of the interest of any person in the land is less than it would have been if the permission had been granted, or had been granted unconditionally, as the case may be."
    In line 32, leave out "in respect of that depreciation," and insert" equal to the difference."
    In page 20, line 28, after "do," insert "having regard to the local circumstances."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 21.—(Enforcement of planning control.)
    Amendments made: In page 23, line 28, after "permission," insert" required."
    In page 24, line 10, after "that," insert "(a)."
    In line 17, at end, insert:
    "(b) if within the period aforesaid an appeal is made to the court under the following provisions of this section by a person on whom the enforcement notice was served, the notice shall be of no effect pending the final determination or withdrawal of the appeal."
    In line 38, leave out "any such," and insert:
    "the enforcement notice is varied or the."
    In line 39, after "of," insert" paragraph (a) "of."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 22.—(Supplementary provisions as to enforcement.)
    Amendments made: In page 25, line 13, at end, insert:
    "upon any ground which could have been raised by such an appeal."
    In page 26, line 3 at end, insert:
    "(a) Section two hundred and seventy-six (which empowers local authorities to sell materials removed in executing works under that Act, subject to accounting for the proceeds of sale); "—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 23—(Powers relating to con-forming uses.)
    Amendments made: In page 27, line 29, at end, insert:
    "and Section two hundred and seventy-six of the Public Health Act, 1936 (which empowers local authorities to sell materials removed in executing works under that Act, subject to accounting for the proceeds of sale) shall apply in relation to any works executed by a local planning authority under this Section as it applies in relation to works executed by a local authority under that Act."
    In line 36, at end, insert:
    "(7) Where the requirements of any order under this Section will involve the displacement of persons residing in any premises, it shall be the duty of the local planning authority, in so far as there is not other residential accommodation suitable to the reasonable requirements of those persons available on reasonable terms, to secure the provision of such accommodation in advance of the displacement."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 26.—(Orders for preservation of buildings of special architectural or historic interest.)
    Amendments made: In page 31, line at end, insert:
    "(b) for enabling that authority, where any such works have been executed in contravention of the order, to require the restoration of the building to its former state, and for that purpose for applying any of the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to enforcement notices, subject to such adaptations and modifications as may be specified in the order."
    Page 32, line 1, at beginning, insert:
    "Without prejudice to any provisions included in the building preservation order by virtue of paragraph (b) of Subsection (2) of this Section."
    Line 8, leave out from "pounds," to end of line 11.
    Line 12, leave out from beginning, to "shall," and insert;
    "(6) Nothing in this Section or in any order made thereunder."
    Line 13, leave out "such works as aforesaid," and insert "works."
    Line 16, leave out "of the," and insert "in writing of the proposed."—
    Line 18, at end, insert:
    "to the authority by whom the order was made."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 27.—(Lists of buildings of special architectural or historic interest.)
    Amendments made: In page 33. line 44, at beginning, insert:
    "If any works are carried out in contra, vention of the provisions of Subsection (6) of
    1616
    this Section, the local planning authority may serve on the owner and occupier of the building a notice requiring such steps for restoring the building to its former state as may be specified in the notice to be taken within such period as may be so specified; and in relation to any notice served under this Subsection, the provisions of Subsections (3) to (5) of Section twenty-one of this Act and of Section twenty-two of this Act shall, subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be prescribed by regulations under this Act, apply as those provisions apply in relation to an enforcement notice served under the said Section twenty-one.
    (9) Without prejudice to the provisions of the last foregoing Subsection."
    Page 34, line 1, leave out from "pounds," to end of Clause.—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 29.—(Provisions supplementary to s. 28.)
    Amendments made: In page 36, tine 17, leave out "advertisement is displayed," and insert "person displays an advertisement."
    Line 19, leave out "the owner of that advertisement," and insert "he."
    Line 25, leave out from "subsection," to end of Clause, and add:
    "and without prejudice to the generality thereof a person shall be deemed to display an advertisement if—

    (a) the advertisement is displayed on land of which he is the owner or occupier; or

    (b) the advertisement gives publicity to his goods, trade, business or other concerns:

    Provided that a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the said subsection by reason only that an advertisement is displayed on land of which he is the owner or occupier, or that his goods, trade, business or other concerns are given publicity by the advertisement, if he proves that it was displayed without his knowledge or consent."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 31.—(Delegation of functions to councils of county districts.)
    Amendments made: In page 37, line 7, leave out from "Act," to "and," in line 9.
    Line i6, at end, insert "counties and."
    Line 29, leave out "or," and insert "and."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 34.—(Temporary provisions pending approval of plans.)
    Amendment made: In page 39), line 23, leave out "been approved or made." and insert "become operative."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 35.—(Compulsory acquisition by Ministers, kcal authorities and statutory undertakers.)
    Amendments made: In page 39, line 34, leave out "for the purposes of the functions of," and insert "by."
    Line 40, leave out "been approved or made," and insert "become operative."
    Page 40, line 10, leave out from "acquisition," to "a," in line and insert "by."
    Line 13, leave out from "acquisition," to "a," and insert "by."
    Line 17, leave out from "acquisition," to "any," and insert "by."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 36.—(Compulsory acquisition of land for development.)
    Amendments made: In page 40, line 42, leave out from "acquisition," to end of line 10, page 41, and insert:
    "by the appropriate local authority, then if the Minister is satisfied—

    (a) in the case of land comprised in an area defined by the plan as an area of comprehensive development, or of land contiguous or adjacent to any such area, that the land is required in order to secure the development or re-development of the said area or that it is expedient in the public interest that the land should be held together with land so required;

    (b) in any other case, that it is necessary that the land should be acquired under this Section for the purpose of securing its use in the manner proposed by the plan."

    Page 41, line 14, leave out "been approved or made," and insert "become operative."
    Line 28, leave out "he thinks fit," and insert:
    "after consultation with that council and, in the case of land in a county, with the council of that county, he thinks it expedient so to do."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 38.—(Acquisition of land by agreement for development.)
    Amendments made; In page 42, line 46, leave out from "land," to "compulsorily," in line 47, and insert:
    "(whether or not being land designated by a development plan as subject to compulsory acquisition) which they require for any purpose for which a local authority may be authorised to acquire land."
    Line 47, leave out from "Act," to end of Subsection.—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 41.—(Acquisition of land by Central Land Board.)
    Amendments made: In page 45, line ii, leave out from first "development," to second "development," and insert "on terms inclusive of any."
    Line 14, leave out from beginning to "he," in line 18, and insert:
    "If the Minister is satisfied that it is expedient in the public interest that the Board should acquire any land for any such purpose as aforesaid, and that the Board are unable to acquire the land by agreement on reasonable terms."
    Line 20, leave out "the said Section thirty-six," and insert "this Section."
    Line 21, leave out "the said."—[Mr. Silkin.]
    Mr. De la Bère; On a point of Order. In view of the fact that we cannot vote against this perfectly ridiculous procedure, could not we take all the Amendments as read? There is no opportunity of opposing them, and no opportunity of discussing them. Therefore, would not it be possible to take them all as read?
    Mr. Speaker: I should like to do so, but after all, hon. Members have the right, if they so wish, to divide against particular Amendments. That is their right, and I cannot forgo that. I will try to put the Amendments en bloc as far as I possibly can.

    CLAUSE 43.—(Amendment of 9 & 10 Geo. 6. c. 49 in relation to acquisition of land under Part IV.)
    Amendments made: In page 47, line 23, leave out "its confirmation," and insert "the consideration of the order."
    In line 43, leave out "and except where," and insert "or."
    In page 48, line 9, at end, insert:
    "(6) Regulations made under this Act, may provide for securing that any proceeding's required by the said First Schedule to be taken for the purposes of the compulsory acquisition of any land under this Act may be taken concurrently with any proceedings required by or under this Act to be taken in connection with the approval, making or amendment of a development plan designating that land as subject to compulsory acquisition."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 46.—(Power to stop up and divert highways, etc.)
    Amendment made: In page 51, line 38, leave out from "with," to "by," in line 39, and insert;
    "planning permission granted under Part III of this Act."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 50.—(Application of 9 & 10 Geo. 5. c. 57 to purchases by statutory undertakers.)
    Amendments made: In page 56, line 6, after "by," insert "the Central Land Board or any."
    In line 8, leave out from "by," to "accordingly," in line 9, and insert;
    "a Government Department or a local or public authority, and references in this Act to any such Department or authority shall be construed."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 54.—(Ascertainment of development values of land.)
    Amendments made: In page 6o, line 11, leave out "Provided that," and insert "(3)."
    In line 16, at end, insert:
    "(3) Where any permission to develop land granted on an application made in that behalf under an interim development order has been revoked or modified before the appointed day under Section four of the Town and Country Planning (Interim Development) Act, 5943, the unrestricted value of any interest in that land shall be calculated without regard to the revocation or modification of that permission.
    Provided that—

    (a) in calculating the unrestricted value of the interest no account shall be taken of any works in respect of which any compensation has been paid under Subsection (2) of Section seven of the said Act; and

    (b) if any contribution has been paid under Subsection (4) of the said Section four to the owner of the interest or his predecessor in title, the amount of that contribution shall be deducted from the unrestricted value of the interest."

    In line 47, leave out lines 47 to 49.— [Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 56.—(Exclusion of small claims.)
    Amendment made: In page 6i, line 40, leave out Subsection (2), and insert:
    "(2) In determining for the purposes of paragraph (b) of the foregoing Subsection whether the development value of an interest in land exceeds one tenth of its restricted value, those values shall be calculated—

    (a) in the case of a leasehold interest, as if the rent payable under the lease were a rent of a peppercorn;

    1620

    (b) in the case of an interest which is subject to a rentcharge, as if the interest were not subject thereto."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 57.—(Vesting and assignment of right to payments under Part V.)
    Amendments made: In page 62, line 6, leave out Subsection (2).
    In line 30, at end, insert;
    "(4) Subject to the following provisions of this Section the reference in this Section to the owner of an interest in land shall be construed as a reference to the person in whom the legal estate in respect of the interest is vested or, if the interest is a tenancy under an agreement for a lease, to the person entitled to have vested in him the legal term agreed to be created.
    (5) Where the legal estate or the title thereto, as the case may be, in respect of an interest in land is vested in the official trustee of charity lands or other trustee on or for charitable, ecclesiastical or public trusts or purposes not entitled to act in the trust, or in the Public Trustee holding in circumstances in which he is not entitled to act in the trust then—

    (a) in the case of a trustee on or fox charitable, ecclesiastical or public trusts or purposes, the managing trustees or committee of management shall be deemed for the purposes of this section to be the owner of the interest;

    (b) in the case of the Public Trustee, the person in receipt of the rent incident to the Public Trustee's estate, or, if there is no rent incident thereto, the person in occupation of the land, shall be deemed for those purposes to be the owner of the interest.

    (6) Where under Section nine of the Administration of Estates Act, 1925, or Section fifteen of the Court of Probate (Ireland), 1859. the estate of a person who died intestate is vested in the Probate Judge, that judge shall not be deemed for the purposes of this Section to be the owner of any interest in land comprised in the estate, but upon administration being granted the administrator shall be deemed for those purposes to have been the owner thereof as from the date of the death.
    (7) In relation to requisitioned land the reference in paragraph (b) of Subsection (5) of this Section to rent shall be construed as including a reference to compensation payable under the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939. or under any such agreement as is mentioned in Section fifteen of that Act, and the reference in the said paragraph (b) to the person in receipt of rent shall be construed as a reference to the person who is, or, if a claim therefor had been duly made under that Act, would have been, in receipt of such compensation as aforesaid."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 62.—(Levy of development charge in respect of certain development.)
    Amendments made: In page 66, line 3, at end, insert "or continuance."
    In line 28, leave out from "works," to "this," in line 31, and insert:
    "erected or carried out in accordance with planning permission granted for a limited period only."
    In line 32, leave out from "works," to second "as," in line 33.
    In line 34, leave out from "which," to "required," in line 35, and insert:
    "planning permission under Part III of this Act is."
    In line 37, leave out from 'operations," to end of line.—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 64.—(Payment and security for payment of development charges.)
    Amendments made: In page 68, line 20, after the first "or," insert:
    "of capital and interest combined, of as a series."
    In line 33, at end, insert:
    "Provided that notwithstanding anything in this section or in any requirement of the Board thereunder, any person for the time being interested in the land may at any time discharge any outstanding liability for sums payable by virtue of the determination by the payment of such amount as may be determined by the Board to represent the value of those sums subject to such discount as they consider appropriate."
    In line 35, leave out "as aforesaid."
    In line 39, at end, insert:
    "(4) The purposes authorised for the application of capital moneys—

    (a) by Section seventy-three of the Settled Land Act, 1925. and by that Section as applied by Section twenty-eight of the Law of Property Act, 5925. in relation to trusts for sale; and

    (b) by Section twenty-six of the Universities, and College Estates Act, 1925,
    and the purposes authorised by Section seventy-one of the Settled Land Act, 1925, by that Section as applied as aforesaid, and by Section thirty-one of the Universities and College Estates Act, 1925, as purposes for which moneys may be raised by mortgage, shall include the discharge of any sum payable in respect of a development charge under this Part of this Act, being a sum determined by the Board under this Section as a capital payment or as an instalment of capital."

    In line 4o, leave out Subsection (4).—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 67.—(Powers of Central Land Board as to development carried out in contravention of Part VI.)
    Amendment made: In page 72, line 37, leave out Subsection (5).—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 69.—(Existing development contravening previous planning control.)
    Amendments made: In page 74, line 44, after "effect," insert:
    (a) the value of any interest therein for the purposes of the assessment of the compensation payable under Part IV of this Act on the compulsory acquisition thereof; and (b)."
    In line 45, leave out "shall be calculated."
    In line 46, after "Act," insert "shall be calculated."
    In page 75, line 2, leave out "that purpose," and insert "those purposes."
    In line 4, leave out from first "the," to "continuance."
    In line 5, leave out "are," and insert "is."
    In line 6, after "Section," insert;
    "then, notwithstanding anything in Subsection (2) of Section sixty-two of this Act."
    In line 7, leave out from first "the," to "continued," in line 8.—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 70.—(Existing development authorised subject to conditions.)
    Amendments made; In page 76, line 26, after "works," insert "or use."
    In line 29, leave out "that," and insert (a) the last foregoing."
    In line 34, at end, insert:
    "(b) in a case where the permission authorises the retention of any works, Subsection (4) of Section sixty-two of this Act shall apply in relation to the retention of those works as if they had been erected or carried out in accordance with planning permission granted for a limited period only;"
    In page 76, leave out line 35, and insert "the."
    In line 37, after "relates," insert:
    "for the purposes of the assessment of compensation payable under Part IV of this Act on the compulsory acquisition thereof and the development value of any such interest for the purposes of Part V of this Act."
    In line 40, leave out "that purpose," and insert "those purposes."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 71.—(General provisions as to development authorised under interim development orders after 21st July, 1943.)
    Amendments made; In page 77, line 35, at end insert:
    "Provided that this Subsection shall not apply in relation to any development for

    1623
    which permission was required before the appointed day under the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, unless that permission has also been granted."
    In line 40, leave out "as aforesaid," and insert "by virtue of this section."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 74.—(Land ripe for development before the appointed day.)
    Amendments made: In page 80, line 22, after "submission," insert "or a building application."
    In line 40, leave out "as aforesaid," and insert "by virtue of this Section."
    In page 78, line 9, at end, insert:
    "(4) Where permission for any development of land has been granted as mentioned in Subsection (1) of this Section, and permission for that development has also been granted under the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, then if the permission so granted under the said Act of 1935 was granted subject to conditions, those conditions shall be treated for the purposes of this Section as conditions imposed by the permission granted under the interim development order."—[Mr. Silkin.]
    In line 37, leave out "a substantial part," and insert "substantially the whole."
    In page 81, line 2, leave out from "development," to "to," in line 3.
    In line 5, leave out from "submitted," to "to," in line 7, and insert:
    "and the expression building application means an application including such plans as aforesaid and made by any such person as aforesaid to a local or other authority under the Town and Country Planning Acts, 1932 and 1943, or under any byelaws or other enactment requiring the consent of that authority.—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 75.—(Mineral workings.)
    Amendments made: In page 81, line 37, leave out "d," and insert:
    "(3) Regulations made for the purposes of this Section shall provide for securing—
    (a)."
    In line 37, leave out "the said Part VI," and insert "Part VI of this Act."
    In line 43, at end, insert:
    "(b) that where a development charge is payable under the said Part VI in respect of the winning and working of minerals authorised by an order made under Part I of the Mines (Working Facilities and Support) Act, 1923, the provisions of the order may be varied by the Railway and Canal Commission so far as may be just having regard to the amount of the charge."
    In line 44, leave out from "where," to end of line 45, and insert:
    "a development plan provides that any land is to be used."
    In page 82, line 4, leave out "so designated," and insert:
    "designated by such a plan as subject to compulsory acquisition."
    In line 7, after "Act," insert:
    "by the Minister and the Minister of Fuel and Power."
    In line 31, leave out "by," and insert "vested in."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 79.—(Land held for charitable purposes.)
    Amendments made: In page 85, line 18, after "land," insert "an interest in which is."
    In line 19, at end, insert "(a)."
    In line 20, leave out from first "used," to "purpose," in line 21, and insert "for any."
    In line 23, at end, insert:
    "or
    (b) land contiguous or adjacent to any such land as aforesaid, and used for any purpose ancillary to the purpose for which that land is used."
    In line 25, leave out from "any," to "in," in line 26, and insert:
    "such interest as is mentioned in Subsection (1) of this Section."
    In line 31, leave out from "land," to end of Subsection (3), and insert:
    "by the person entitled to any such interest as aforesaid, or in respect of any use of the land by any such person, if the operations are carried out, or the use effected, as the case may be, for any such purpose as is mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (6) of Subsection (1) of this Section."
    In page 86, line 5, after "acquisition," insert:
    "of any such interest in the land as is mentioned in Subsection (1) of this Section."
    In line 15, at end, insert:
    "(6) Where any interest in land is held on the appointed day on charitable trusts or for ecclesiastical or other charitable purposes, then if the Minister is satisfied—

    (a) that the land would have been used on that clay for any such purpose as is mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of Subsection (1) of this section but: for the occurence of war damage or but for the fact that the land was requisitioned land; or

    (b) that the land is intended to be used for any such purpose as aforesaid at any time within the period of twenty years from the appointed day,

    he may, at any time within the period of three years from the appointed day, direct that this section shall apply to the land as if it were used for the said purposes and as if it had been so used on the appointed day; and until any

    1625
    land to which such a direction relates is used for any such purpose as aforesaid, no development charge shall be payable under Part VI of this Act in respect of any such use of the land, or in respect of any such operations carried out thereon, as are mentioned in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of Subsection (4) of this section."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 80.—(Crown Land.)
    Amendments made; In page 86, line 30, after "land," insert "compulsorily."
    In line 30, leave out from "Act," to "may," in line 31.
    In page 87, line 13 leave out "at a price," and insert:
    "on terms that the price payable therefor shall be."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 82.—(Requisitioned land.)
    Amendments made: In page 89, line 13, leave out Subsection (1).
    In page 90, line 10, after "them," insert:
    "or where any such buildings or works were otherwise erected or constructed wholly or partly at the expense of any such person."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 87.—(Other Exchequer grants to local authorities.)
    Amendment proposed: In page 93, line 32, leave out "other than," and insert:
    "including land compulsorily acquired by virtue of the said section seventeen, but ex-chiding any."—[Mr. Silkin.]
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Amendment be made."
    Mr. De la Bère: On a point of Order. May we know where we are, Mr. Speaker? I am a little bit confused.
    Mr. Speaker: We are coming on to page 95, line 39.
    Mr. De la Bère: Thank you very much.
    Mr. Speaker: I am sorry; I was wrong. We have not got to page 95 yet. We are actually on page 93.
    Mr. De la Bère: May I thank you once again?
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 90.—(Power of local authorities and statutory undertakers to contribute towards expenses of local planning authorities, etc.)
    Amendment made: In page 95, line 39, leave out "other."
    In page 96, line 13, leave out "joint planning board or."
    In line 15, leave out "board or."—[Mr. Silkin..]

    CLAUSE 92.—(Default powers of Minister.)
    Amendments made: In page 96, line 29, after "section," insert "twenty-seven or section."
    In line 34, leave out from "authority," to end of line 35.
    In line 37, leave out:
    "subsection (3) of the said section twenty-one and subsection (1) of."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 94.—(Powers of entry.)
    Amendments made: In page 99, line 29, leave out "the said Part III," and insert "Part III of this Act."
    In page 100, line 34, leave out "performance of his duty," and insert:
    "course of performing his duty in connection with the survey or estimate for which he was authorised to enter the premises."
    In page 101, line 4, leave out from beginning, to "land," and insert:
    "Any power conferred by this section to survey."
    In line 5, leave out "references to searching and boring," and insert "power to search and bore."
    In line 7, at end, insert:
    "Provided that a person shall not carry out any works authorised by this Subsection unless notice of his intention so to do has been included in the notice required by Subsection (4) of this Section, and if the land in question is held by any statutory undertakers and those undertakers object to the proposed works on the ground that the carrying out thereof would be seriously detrimental to the carrying on of their undertaking, the works shall not be carried out except with the authority of the appropriate Minister."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 95.—(Local inquiries, etc.)
    Amendment made: In page 101, line 16, leave out Subsection (2).—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 98.—(Provisions as to Ecclesiastical property.)
    Amendment made: In page 103, line 6, at end, insert:
    "(2) Where the fee simple in any ecclesiastical property is in abeyance it shall be treated for the purposes of a compulsory purchase of the property under Part IV of this Act as being vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and any notice to treat shall be served, or be deemed to have been served accordingly."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 102.—(Regulations and orders.)
    Amendment made: In page 104, line 29, after "regulations," insert:
    under this Act—

    (a) for prescribing the form of any notice, order or other document authorised or required by this Act to be served, made or issued by any local authority;

    (b)."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 104.—(Amendments and repeals.)
    Amendments made: In page 105, line 4o, at end, insert "so much of."
    In line 41, leave out from "day," to "made," in line 4, on page rob, and insert:
    "as confers or imposes any such powers, prohibitions or restrictions as could be conferred or imposed by regulations."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 105.—(Special provisions as to London.)
    Amendments made: In page 106., line 24, after "sections," insert "twenty-six."
    In line 33, leave out from "Act," to end of line 35.—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 107.—(Interpretation.)
    Amendments made: In page 109, line 26, leave out from "is," to end of line 28, and insert:
    "defined by a development plan as an area of comprehensive development."
    In line 37, leave out "or alteration," and insert "improvement or other alteration, being works."
    In page no, line 35, at end, insert:
    "'interim development authority' means a council or joint committee empowered by an interim development order to permit the development of land;
    'interim development order' means an order made under Subsection (1) of Section ten of the Act of 1932."
    In page 111, line 4, leave out from "authority," to end of line 6, and insert:
    "means the council of a county, county borough, metropolitan borough or county district, the Common Council of the City of London and any other authority being a local authority within the meaning of the Local Loans Act, 1875. and includes any drainage board and any joint board or joint committee if all the constituent authorities are such local authorities as aforesaid."
    In page 112, line 41, at end, insert:
    "'requisitioned land' and 'period of requisition,' have the meanings assigned to them by Section eighty-two of this Act"—[Mr. Silkin.]

    CLAUSE 108.—(Short title and extent.)
    Amendment made; In page 114, line 2, at end, insert:
    "(2) This Act shall come into force on the appointed day:
    Provided that—

    (a) Sections two and three of this Act; and

    (b) the provisions of Part IV of this Act relating to the assessment of compensation for the compulsory acquisition of land; and

    (c) Subsection (2) of Section thirty-five of this Act and Subsection (2) of Section thirty-six of this Act, and any other provisions of the said Part IV which relate to the acquisition of land under either of those Subsections;

    shall come into force on the date of the passing of this Act."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    FIRST SCHEDULE."—(Local Administration.)
    Amendments made: In page 115, line 30, leave out "Part II," and insert "Parts II and III."
    In line 32, at end, insert:
    "Planning Committees
    1. A local planning authority may establish such planning committees as they think it expedient to establish for the efficient discharge of their functions as a local planning authority, and may authorise any such committee to exercise on their behalf any of those functions, except the power to borrow money or to levy or issue a precept for a rate.
    2. A planning committee of a local planning authority may, subject to an restrictions imposed by the local planning authority,

    (a) appoint such sub-committees constituted in such manner as the committee may determine; and

    (b) authorise any such sub-committee to exercise any of the functions of the committee on their behalf.

    3. A majority of every planning committee of a local planning authority shall be members of the authority, and a majority of every subcommittee of any such committee shall be members either of the local planning authority or of the councils of county districts comprised in the area of that authority.
    Part III."
    In page 116, line 21, leave out "committees and."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    SECOND SCHEDULE.—(Excepted Enactments for the Purposes of Section 11.)
    Amendment made: In page 116, line 32, leave out "suspended," and insert "excluded or modified."—[Mr. Silkin.]
    FIFTH SCHEDULE.—(Special Provisions Relating to Development by Statutory Undertakers.)
    Amendment made: In page 119, line 36, after "not," insert "except with the consent of the undertakers."—[Mr. Silkin.]

    SIXTH SCHEDULE.—(Procedure for making Orders under Section 46.)
    Amendment made: In page 122, line 26; at end, insert:
    "6. Immediately after the order has been made, the Minister of Transport shall publish in the manner prescribed by paragraph r of this Schedule a notice stating that the order has been made, and naming a place where a copy of the order may be seen at all reason-

    "The Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, 9 & 10 Geo. 5,c. 100.

    In Section twenty-one for the words 'local authority,' in the second place where those words occur, there shall be substituted the words 'local planning authority within the meaning of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947'; after the words 'county council,' in the second place where those words occur, there shall be inserted the words 'not being the local planning authority'; and at the end of the section there shall be added the following words:—

    Provided that in the case of lines to be placed in a county district or in any part of the area of a county borough which is comprised in the area of a joint planning board, the local planning authority and the council of that district or borough may agree that the foregoing provisions of this section shall have effect as if for the reference therein to the local planning authority there were substituted a reference to that council, and where notice of any such agreement is given to the Minister of Fuel and Power the said provisions shall have effect accordingly"

    In page 123, line 17, column 2, after "Act," insert:
    "and the words 'except at such places as may be permitted by them.'"
    In page 124, line 31, after "1947," insert:
    "in Subsection (6) after the word 'shall,' there shall be inserted the words 'in the case of land comprised in an area defined by a development plan as an area of comprehensive development or of land contiguous or adjacent to any such area which is designated by the development plan as subject to compulsory acquisition by the appropriate local authority '; for the word 'land,' in the second place where that word occurs, there shall be substituted the words 'any such land'; and for the words 'accommodation thereon,' there shall be substituted the words 'thereon accommodation suitable to their reasonable requirements.'"
    In line 42, column 2, at end, insert:
    "and in Subsection (4) for the words 'the two last preceding Subsections,' there shall be substituted the words 'Subsection (2) of this Section.'"
    In page 125, line 20, column 2, leave out "for subsection (2)," and insert:
    "and at the end of that subsection there shall be inserted the words if the Minister is satis-
    able hours, and paragraphs 2 and 3 of this Schedule shall apply to any such notice as they apply to the notice required to be published by the said paragraph 1.
    7. Subsections (2) to (4) of the Section (Validity and date of operation of development plans) of this Act shall apply to any order under Section forty-six of this Act as they apply to a development plan approved or made under Part II of this Act, and as if for references therein to the notice required by Subsection (1) of that Section there were substituted references to the notice required by the last foregoing paragraph."—l[Mr. Silkin.]

    SEVENTH SCHEDULE.—(Enactments Amended.)
    Amendments made: In page 122, line 33, at end, insert:
    fied that a suitable alternative right of way has been or will be provided, or that the provision thereof is not required '; for subsections (2) and (3)."
    In page 127, line 48, column 2, leave out "and."
    In page 128, line 5, column 2, at end, insert:
    "and in subsection (2) for the words 'meanings assigned to them respectively by Section fourteen of this Act,' there shall be substituted the words 'same meanings as in the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946.'"
    In line 13, after "1947," insert:
    "in subsection (1) after the word 'accommodation,' in the first place where that word occurs, there shall be inserted the words 'suitable to the reasonable requirements of those persons' "—[Mr. Silkin.]

    EIGHTH SCHEDULE.—(Enactments repealed.)
    Amendments made: In page 133, line 29, column 3, after "Minister" insert "owner."
    In page 134, line 47, column 3, after "(1) (a)," insert "(1) (b)."
    In page 135,line 39, at end, insert:

    9 & so Geo. 6, c. 35.

    The Building Restrictions (War-Time Contraventions) Act. 1946.

    Subsection (2) of section four.

    [Mr. Silkin.]

    NINTH SCHEDULE.—(Transitory provisions and provisions consequential on repeals.)
    Amendments made: In page 136, line 9. leave out "finally determined," and insert "determined by that authority."
    In page 136, line 10, at end, insert "planning."
    In page 136, line 11, leave out "under Part III of this Act."
    In page 136, line 12, at end, insert:
    "2. Where an application for any such permission as aforesaid, made to the interim development authority or the responsible authority before the appointed day, bas been determined by that authority before that day and no appeal has been brought against the decision, then if the period during which such an appeal could have been brought before the appointed day has not expired, the decision of the interim development authority or the responsible authority, as the case may be, shall be treated for the purposes of Section fourteen of this Act as the decision of a local planning authority on an application for planning permission.
    3. Any appeal to the Minister from the decision of the interim development authority or the responsible authority on any such application as aforesaid which is pending on the appointed day shall be treated as an appeal to the Minister under Section fourteen of this Act:
    Provided that where under Subsection (5) of Section ten of the Act of 1932, any such hearing as is required by that Subsection has been held before the appointed day, the proviso to Subsection (2) of Section thirteen of this Act shall not apply in relation to the appeal."
    In page 136, line 17, leave out from "Act," to end of line 21.
    In line 22, leave out from "under," to "Section," in line 23.
    In line 25, leave out "those provisions respectively," and insert "that Section."
    In line 27, leave out "or appeal."
    Amendment proposed: In page 136, line 27, at end, insert:
    "3. Any application for consent for the development of land made by a local authority before the appointed day under Section thirty-two of the Act of 1944 which has not been finally determined before that day shall de treated for the purposes of this Act as if it were an application for planning permission
    1632
    for the like development made by a local planning authority in pursuance of regulations made under Section thirty-two of this Act." —[Mr. Silkin.]
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Amendment be made."
    Mr. Eden: On a point of Order. We are now on the last page of the Amendment Paper. May I ask whether at any time within your recollection, Mr. Speaker, so little of a Bill has been discussed on the Report stage—13 pages out of over 130 pages of the Amendment Paper?
    Mr. Gallacher: Further to that point of Order. Is it not the case that attention was drawn last night to the fact that Members on the other side were wasting the time on very trivial Amendments?
    Mr. Speaker: That was not a point of Order. I was asked a question by the right hon. Gentleman, and I thought I might have had the courtesy of the hon. Member in being allowed an opportunity to reply. As far as I am concerned, that is a question I ought not to answer. I am merely a servant of the House, and whatever my recollection might be, it is not for me to express an opinion one way or the other.
    In page 137, line 39, at end, insert "(a)
    In line 43, leave out "finally determined," and insert "determined by that authority."
    In line 45, leave out from "for," to end of line 46, and insert:
    "planning permission, and shall be treated as having been so made on the appointed day;
    (b) that any decision of a highway authority on an application for such a consent under the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, shall, unless the applicant has appealed against that decision under Section seven of that Act before the appointed day, be treated for the purposes of Section fourteen of this Act as the decision of a local planning authority on an application for planning permission; and
    (c) that any appeal to the Minister of Transport under the said Section seven which is pending on the appointed day shall be treated as an appeal to the Minister under Section fourteen of this Act:
    Provided that where under the said Section seven any such local inquiry as is required

    1633
    by that Section has been held before the appointed day, the proviso to Subsection (2) of Section thirteen of this Act shall not apply in relation to any such appeal."
    In page 138, line 27, leave out from "area," to "and," and insert "of comprehensive development."
    In line 28, leave out "as such."
    In line 28, at end, insert "by the appropriate local authority."
    In line 32, at end, insert:
    "Provided that

    (a) this paragraph shall not apply to any operational land of statutory undertakers unless an order made under paragraph (b) of Subsection (5) of Section thirteen of the Act of 1944 declaring that it is expedient that the land should be subject to compulsory purchase has taken effect before the appointed day;

    (b) nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as restricting the power of the Minister of Works or the Postmaster-General to acquire any land to which this paragraph applies under Subsection (2) of Section thirty-five of this Act"

    In line 39, at end, add:
    "and the said Section sixteen of that Act shall, notwithstanding the repeal of that Section, apply in relation to any such order."—[Mr. Silkin.]
    Bill to be read the Third time on Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 79.]

  CONSOLIDATION BILLS
  So much of the Lords Message [12th May] as relates to the appointment of a Committee on all Consolidation Bills and all Bills for re-enacting in the form in which they apply to Scotland the provisions of an existing Statute considered:
  Select Committee of six Members appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider all Consolidation Bills and all Bills for reenacting in the form in which they apply to Scotland the provisions of an existing Statute:
  Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchison, Mr. McKinlay, Mr. Neil Maclean, Mr. Mitchison, Mr. James Reid and Mr. J. L. Williams to be Members of the Committee:
  The Committee to have power to send for persons, papers and records:
  Three to be the Quorum.—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.)
  Message to the Lords to acquaint them with such of the said Orders as are necessary to be communicated to their Lordships.

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Sandown-Shanklin, a copy of which Order was presented on 12th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Newport (Isle of Wight), a copy of which Order was presented on 12th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the County Borough of Hastings, a copy of which Order was presented on 12th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act 1932, to the City of New Sarum, a copy of which Order was presented on 12th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the City of Bradford, a copy of which Order was presented on 12th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary 01 State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the City of St. Albans, a copy 01 which Order was presented on 12th May, be approved."—[Mr. Ede.]

  COCOA PRICES ORDER
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. Erroll: I beg to move,
  "That the Raw Cocoa (Control and Maximum Prices) (Amendment) Order, 1947 (S.R. & O., 1947. No. 552), dated 28th March, 1947, a copy of which was presented on 1st April, be annulled."
  When I originally put down this Motion on the Order Paper I little thought that we should have to sit through an exhibition of Parliamentary democracy such as we have had tonight. The purpose of this

  1635
  Order is to increase the price of cocoa from an unspecified amount to 119s. per cwt., and allows the Minister of Food to raise the price still further. It is not surprising that this Order should have attracted the attention of the Select Committee appointed to examine Statutory Rules and Orders, and it is interesting to note that in referring the matter to our attention the Committee said:
  "the special attention of the House should be drawn to the Order on the ground that it appears to make unexpected use of the powers conferred by the Statute."
  The evidence, as published, shows that we in Britain are having to pay a needlessly high price for our cocoa while the West African native grower is getting an extremely low price. It also shows that the Ministry of Food buy cocoa from the West African Control Board, and sell it to manufacturers in this country on a no-profit-no-loss basis. The Ministry trades on the average of the prices they pay and so, in the past, due to relief of stock bought at low prices, the United Kingdom prices have been below world prices. I understand that present prices are still below world prices, due to the lower price paid for some cocoa at the beginning of the current season.
  The first problem we have to decide is of course, what is the present world price. Apparently, accordingly to the evidence, the West African Control Board regards the New York price as the free world price, since the United States take only one-third of the world crop. The amount which America can take from West Africa is limited to the quantity allocated by the International Economic Food Council, which decides exactly how much each consuming nation shall have and, incidentally, how much we in Britain should have of the crop grown in our own Colony. America takes one-third of the total West African crop. The price rise in New York does not, in present circumstances, attract more cocoa to America.
  The New York speculators are quite aware, of course, of this, and they are buying up cocoa in New York in the sure knowledge that there will be a further rise in price. In the words of the Minutes of Evidence of the Report, the price rocketed when the price control
  1636
  was removed. New York may be a very long way from here, but this is extremely relevant to the subject matter with which we are concerned to-night. This may seem to be an argument in favour of price control, but, although the price movements were free and unfettered, the actual supply of cocoa was limited to a definite quantity.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: Surely the hon. Member is aware that the whole of the prices in America have risen, even where a free market was established.
  Mr. Erroll: Not in proportion. The fact remains that there has been a tremendous dollar pressure, and that has caused the American price to rise on a limited supply of cocoa. What the Americans do in their own country is their own concern, and there is no difference of opinion on that point. But we in this country are having to pay to West Africa the artificially stimulated New York price, and we are being forced to do so by the West African Price Control Board which is, strangely enough, controlled by the Colonial Office. We are on a merry-go-round which may become a spiral at any moment. I understand that the Ministry of Food has brought the strongest pressure to bear on the Secretary for the Colonies, and in this connection I would say that the Minutes make extremely interesting reading. The Minutes of Evidence say that the Ministry of Food spokesman said the Ministry have brought the strongest possible pressure to bear on the Colonial Office, and there have been meetings between the Ministry of Food and the Colonial Office, and so forth, in order to get a more favourable position for ourselves.
  But for whom? Not for the British housewife. The Colonial Office has resisted that very strongly. We can only surmise how fierce was this unedifying squabble between two Ministers behind the scenes. The Minister of Food, in his position, lost, and the Secretary for the Colonies won, and the British housewife has suffered. What is the position? Only the Control Board gains. The native is getting nothing like the market price. These are not my own words but the words of the Minutes of Evidence. The Control Board has won and there is a difference, we are told, of something like £20 million sterling. It is said that this will be used ultimately for the benefit of the African natives. That is a fine

  1637
  hope. It is difficult to say why the Colonial Secretary won because for other West African agricultural products we in England pay prices well below the prevailing world prices. There is no central surplus being held in respect of any other West African agricultural produce. I would quote just two instances to illustrate this point. In respect of palm oil we pay a price of about £38 a ton whereas palm oil from the Dutch East Indies, of comparable quality, is costing in the free market £147 a ton. There is no question there of our having to pay £147 a ton for West African palm oil. As regards palm kernels the picture is much the same. We are paying £21 13s. whereas in the open market the price is of the order of £55 a ton. I should like to ask whether the Minister really did press the matter as far as he might have done. After all, these are telling figures. Was the greatest possible pressure really brought to bear upon the Colonial Office to be at least consistent in the matter of our food supplies derived from the Colonies?
  I am very well aware that the surplus' of £20 million accumulated by the Produce Control Board is for the ultimate benefit of the native. I understand that some of this surplus will in fact be devoted to subsidising the price paid to him when world prices fall, but does so large a sum of money really have to be held—a sum which is extracted from British housewives at the present time? Can we justify asking the British taxpayer to give £3,250,000 to the Gold Coast through the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund. when that territory already lays claim to a very large proportion of the surplus extracted from us by the price charging policy of the Control Board? The ultimate good of the native is at the present time not enough. The native needs a high price now to stimulate production, and for a very interesting technical reason which was referred to in the report. The report makes it quite clear that production has been declining over the past two years, and on page five it says that an expert witness stated:
  "Yes, the world supply was substantially below 'prewar. There is serious cocoa disease.
  This disease is called "swollen shoot," and I only bring this technicality into the House this evening because it is extraordinarily relevant to the whole question
  1638
  of price policy for cocoa. When a tree gets this disease it infects other trees and must be cut down. When the disease is visible the tree that is infected will bear one more crop and then die. Great pressure is brought to bear on the natives in the Gold Coast at present to cut down their trees as soon as the disease becomes visible, but with the low price paid for the crops from their farms the growers have a very great temptation to keep their trees going for one more year in order to get the final crop. That is fatal because it is during that last year of the life of the tree that the disease is spread to neighbouring trees, thus causing further mortality in otherwise healthy trees. By paying a high price now the native will have enough spare money to buy the imported goods he requires which are available to him—as they were not in wartime—at the relatively high world prices, and he would still be able to afford to cut down his trees as soon as they were visibly affected. At present however, he is unable to do so and does not do so save when the strongest pressure is brought to bear upon him.
  Mr. Hale: In order to enable some of us to follow this argument, will the hon. Gentleman answer two questions? First, is it seriously suggested that the higher the profit per tree the more likely trees are to be cut down when they are diseased? Secondly, is the hon. Member really arguing in favour of the Order or against? He now says that the price of 6os. is too low. If he is in favour of a higher price he is in favour of the Order, and in that case the Prayer is out of Order because he has really put it down only as a means of discussing matters which are not relevant to it.
  Mr. Erroll: It is quite obvious that if one has a fixed number of trees one can afford to cut down several if one is receiving a high price for the remainder. Economic circumstances are far harsher there than in England. As regards the hon. Gentleman's second point, it is obvious that I would not have put down the Prayer if I had not been proposing to argue against the Order.
  Mr. Beswick Mr. Beswick (Uxbridge) rose—
  Mr. Erroll: I do not wish to detain the House and in any case hon. Members opposite will have an opportunity of contributing later. The fact remains that the

  1639
  present policy followed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Ministry of Food does not encourage the elimination of the disease and will reduce productivity in British West Africa at the very moment when the world is crying out for more and cheaper cocoa.
  10.17 p.m.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: I beg to second the Motion.
  I should like to point out to the House that this particular product, cocoa, differs in the view of His Majesty's Government from almost any other produce in that in their plans for bulk purchase, which is part of their programme, they are able to exercise to the full their powers, because the native cocoa producer of West Africa is situate in a country which is entirely under their dominion. There is no possibility of action being taken against them as happened in Ceylon in the case of tea, or as happened with regard to oil seed. There is no possibility of their being challenged in any way by the producer, and it, therefore, makes it extremely important that one should examine the effect of this Order from the point of view of the producer. Fifty per cent. of the world's produce of cocoa comes from this area on which the Government can work their will without challenge in any way at all.
  The remarkable thing to which we have to devote our attention is the enormous gulf which is fixed in the price to the producer and what the consumer pays. The consumer of cocoa is not only the British housewife. It goes much wider than that, for cocoa and chocolate are considered one of the most concentrated forms of nourishment which is known. Therefore, in the rehabilitation of starving countries like those in Europe it takes a very high priority. I think we have a moral onus on us to see that we do not offer reasons, which are not crystal clear and which the Minister will have to make later on, in regard to the price which is paid by the rest of the world including, of course, the consumers in this country. That has been done in the case of other products with very dangerous results. One has to consider examples where there has been an artificial reduction in the price of produce throughout the world. Before the war a case in point was when
  1640
  America created an artificially high price by taking 11,000,000 bales of cotton off the market and so fixed a price that created some sort of a hothouse in which a surplus of cotton beyond the world's needs was produced. That produced an extremely bad effect as will this Order in the long run on the cocoa producer.
  This Order goes against one paragraph of the Atlantic Charter. That Charter makes it absolutely clear that the peoples of the world shall have free access to raw materials. There is no free access to cocoa in West Africa. No nation at all can have a free access to that cocoa and go to the native producer and buy it, which was what I believe lay behind that Clause in the Charter. Now between the outside buyer and that native producer there stands this body, the West African Produce Control Board. It is admitted that this body interposes itself to a tune of £20 million between the producer and the consumer. How is it possible for the Atlantic Charter to be reconciled with that when it talks of the free access to raw materials? This body has made a temporary profit of some £20 million—I say "temporary," in all fairness, This fact provides a very strong argument against the Order.
  The Order arrogates power to the Colonial Office and its officials. For them to say, "We propose later on to use this £20 million for the benefit of the natives of West Africa," is exactly the same argument that was used about the Road Fund a good many years ago. That fund was to be used for the benefit of the users of the road. That was not its eventual destination. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who robbed the fund? "] I have always held that it was a very wrong action, and I do not mind saying so.
  The original sin may have been in one place, but the continuation is in another. The argument used on this matter is the one about the free market, but there is some lack of realism shown by the Government in that argument. It came out in evidence that they proposed to use the New York price as a basis of then price. That is not a free market or a true market at all. No market is free in which more than 50 per cent. of the main produce does not come on to the market at all and is in one set of monopolistic hands. The Government are very much against

  1641
  cartels and monopolies, but it is clear by the Order that they have 5o per cent. of the monopoly, and they arrogate to themselves the right to say that they can use that monopoly because they have it.
  The hon. Member who interrupted about the general rise in prices in New York was not entirely accurate. There is the case of another large native produce, rubber, in which there has been a very large drop in price in the last 10 days or a fortnight.
  Mr. Hale: The observation was made with reference to the price level ruling in New York and the variation in price levels. From figures that have been supplied to us from the White Paper there is 30 or 40 per cent. increase in prices in America, and a loss of something like £200 million.
  Mr. Fletcher: I am delighted to have been able to bring the knowledge of the hon. Member more up-to-date by telling him what has happened since the White Paper was published. It has a direct bearing on this question of cocoa but we should observe what happens when there is a true free market, as in the case of rubber. The native can market his rubber on any day. He gets 70 per cent. of the value advanced on the day he brings it in, without interest charges. The cocoa producer gets a price, against which he has already kicked in many cases, and between that price and the price which is paid by the consumer there is an enormous gap of 60s. The price is 119s. c.i.f. or 112s. f.o.b. That is the price which is being paid, and the gap cannot be justified.
  The old story which will be used and which has been used in other cases is that the gap will be evened out later on. That argument does not meet the case at all. I can see a very good case upon an anti-inflationary basis for paying absolutely the full amount. His Majesty's Government, departmentalised into a profit-making concern, sees fit to fix the native prices, but the differential which exists today is infinitely too great. It may be very interesting to hear from the Minister, in view of the knowledge which he has and I have on the subject, how he will justify such an enormous gap, which will have a fatally bad effect upon the native producer. The services which the producer wishes to buy have risen not
  1642
  exactly parallel but to some extent pari passu with everything else. If he feels that he is being penalised at the same time by this rigorous control exercised over him by His Majesty's Government and against which he has no hope of appealing or aid from outside markets, as we have seen in other produce, he will turn away from those products. If, on the other hand, he were given sudden, and too great, maximum rises, then, I think, it might have a slightly inflationary tendency. One of the main vices of this Order is undoubtedly that when we get arbitrary changes in price, which are not based on the market's fluctuations, but on some form of calculations which it is almost impossible to follow—three jumps from about 55s to 119s in a fairly short space of time—then the result on the native producer must be deleterious and bad. The Government are trying to run control and bulk buying based on control, and, at the same time, to argue that they are basing it on a free and open market. That is a contradiction in terms. Whatever control methods against produce are used, nature, in the final analysis, will have the last say.
  10.27 p.m.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: It is usual for hon. Members addressing this House to declare whether or not they have an interest in the subject-matter on which they intervene. I used to be in the cocoa trade, but I left it 17 years ago, since when my only interests in it have been memories and a little knowledge. If anything were a-wanting to prove that we live in a world of commercial insanity, it would be this Order and its predecessors. I want the House to bear with me for a moment while I trace the recent course of the price fluctuations. From the outbreak of war until October, 1946, the price was fixed at 8.9 cents per lb., that is, approximately, £45 12s. 6d. per ton c.i.f. United Kingdom ports. That was a substantial, but by no means a very high price for cocoa before the war. I can recollect it being as low as £18 a ton, and as high as £60. The price fluctuation used to be 1½d a cwt., up or down. That was the unit of movement,—1½d. Why 8.9 cents per lb. was fixed as the first price is not clear. It may have been because the consumers' markets in Europe were narrowed as a result of the European blockade; but it is clear that

  1643
  that price was too low to enable the native cocoa grower to keep his groves in an efficient state, which is why the cocoa disease broke out.
  It is interesting to note that while the price was, approximately, £45 12s. 6d. a ton c.i.f. United Kingdom ports, the native cocoa grower was only getting something in the neighbourhood of £15 per ton. In October, 1946, the price was raised to 14.5 cents per lb., or, approximately, £76 1s. 3d. per ton c.i.f. United Kingdom ports. Again very much less than that price went to the producer. The price was raised again under this Order to 119s. per cwt., or 20 cents per lb. In a sane world the prices of stable commodities do not double in amount overnight. It may be a convenience to the manufacturers who avoid the irritation of adjusting their prices to a gradually rising market, and, incidentally, it enables them to make gigantic unearned profits on the stocks which they possess and which are unsold. But I do maintain that it is monstrously unfair to the consumer.
  The Ministry of Food buys its cocoa through the West African Produce Control Board, which is under the Colonial Office. That is why, no doubt, we see the two Under-Secretaries sitting blissfully together. The Ministry buys it on a "no profit, no loss" basis, and I understand that the view of the West African Produce Control Board is that it must do the best it can for its native producers. We shall see how it is doing this in a moment or two. The ceiling price is taken off in America, and the market rockets. The West African Control Board see to it that the Ministry of Food has to pay the market price. I do not know that I object to that. Some of my hon. Friends have done, but I think it might have been better if a real market price had been paid all along. We might have had a lower price than 8.9 cents per pound at the beginning of the war, but I maintain that, very quickly, that would have righted itself and the grower would have received higher returns on balance than, in fact, he has done through these arbitrary measures; certainly until October, 1946, when the price was revised.
  Let us examine what the grower is now receiving. Now that the price has reached the equivalent of 119s. per cwt.
  1644
  c.i.f. United Kingdom ports, according to the Ministry of Food, the grower is receiving 60s. per cwt., which is just half the market price. Where is the difference going? It is going to the West African Produce Control Board, who have accumulated a fund—it would be fair to call it a profit—in the neighbourhood of £22,000,000. I want to know what they are going to do with it. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies will address himself to that particular point. They must do their best, they say, for the growers. That is an admirable and, indeed, a pious expression which I cannot sufficiently praise, but does doing one's best for the grower include the retention of a fabulous sum of money which by right belongs to him? Is this £22,000,000 to be got through to the growers? If so, how is it to be got through to the growers and when? I have an uncomfortable feeling that the Colonial Office, through the West African Produce Control Board, will retain this huge sum and employ it in some way other than by directly paying the people who grow the cocoa and to whom it clearly belongs. They were the primary producers.
  If that is so, I consider it would be a scandal of the first magnitude, into which there ought to be some sort of inquiry, because the grower was starved of a fair price from 1939 to October, 1946, and since then has received less than half the price which his goods have fetched in the world's markets. I want to know if this has been done because the producers are, in the main, natives, and might be assumed for that reason—probably most unjustly—to be incapable of using the money wisely and well. I say that the Colonial Office ought not to treat the native producer as if the Colonial Office were a Victorian parent docking his son's pocket money. Benevolent parentalism can be carried to something in the nature of a vice. I confess that I always suspect anything which is done by great and powerful Mr. "X" for what he calls "the good" of small and weak little Mr. "Y." I always suspect that his benevolence conceals a subtle form of exploitation. [HON. MEMBERS; "Hear, hear."] I am glad to receive approbation from all quarters of the House, and especially from hon. Members opposite. I hope that the House will annul this Order on its merits,

  1645
  unless we are about to get some very much more satisfactory reply than we have had hitherto received not merely from the Minister of Food, but from the Colonial Office, which is the real nigger in the woodpile.
  10.37 p.m.
  Dr. Haden Guest: I hope the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies will answer the question put by the hon. Member opposite as to what is to be done with the £22 million. It was stated that this was to be used for the ultimate good of the natives, but anyone who knows what actually happens in connection with the sale of cocoa in West Africa knows there is a chain of something like a dozen middlemen between +he Board, the United Africa Company or the Cooperative Wholesale Society, and the actual grower of the cocoa. What does the man who actually grows the cocoa get for his labour? While I was in Africa in 1939, I asked that question of well-informed people, but they did not know. I suspect that the price of 27s. 6d. a load, which is said to be the price received by the native, is actually the price received by the last man who sells the cocoa to the man who buys it on behalf of the United Africa Company or the C.W.S. I think that is actually what happens, but it would be interesting to know. This £22 millions is an interesting, and, it may be, a very important sum. I should like to ask the Under-Secretary whether there is any suggestion of the moneys being used to improve the method of cocoa marketing from the standpoint of the primary cocoa producer, and for his benefit, so that he gets more money and the intermediary less.
  Mr. C. S. Taylor: At the Select Committee when a question was asked as to whether the grower should receive more money for his produce, the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. PlattsMills), referring to the native grower, said that it might make him lazy, and then he would not work any more.
  Mr. James Callaghan: May I say that I am sure that that remark was made ironically.
  Dr. Guest: To put the matter right, may I say that I heard the remark made, and that it was very ironical indeed. The hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Platts-
  1646
  Mills) was referring to the old Blimp idea that we should not do it, otherwise the blighter would not work. But that is not the line which would be taken by the hon. Member for Finsbury himself. This is a matter into which party politics of the ordinary type should not enter at all. This is a matter in which a particular Committee, charged with a duty, has made a report within its terms of reference. That having been done, and the matter having been brought before the House, we have an opportunity of going into the merits of this question. It is of the utmost importance that we should know what is happening. With reference to the £20 million, there is a great difference between the price in this country and the price paid to the native producer—I prefer to call him the African producer—and the price paid by different Governments. The matter needs clearing up. The organisation might be much improved, to the benefit of the African producer, to the benefit of the distributing organisation, to the benefit of the Ministry of Food, and to the benefit, also, of the housewives of Britain. The only persons who would be at a disadvantage, I think, if improvements in organisation were made, would be the various chains of middlemen. I hope that we shall get a satisfactory answer from the Colonial Secretary.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Would not the hon. Member agree, in view of the remarks made about rice, that failure to make perfectly certain that the money is paid to the producer must have a fatal effect upon the production of cocoa?
  Dr. Guest: There is no doubt, from the evidence, that a very serious blow has been struck at the cocoa industry. The cocoa trees have not been properly looked after.
  10.43 p.m.
  Captain John Crowder: First, I must declare my interest. I do not drink cocoa and I do not eat chocolate, but I think the Minister of Food should consider the interests of the consumer of chocolate in this country, and the Colonial Office should be solely concerned with the interests of the grower. We are informed that the maximum price of cocoa has increased to 119 shillings per cwt. but there is no explanatory note to show what the figure has increased from. There should be a comparison with the previous price. I notice in the evidence given before the Select Committee that the hon. Member

  1647
  for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) asked if we could not guarantee to take the whole crop, and the reply given by the Ministry of Food spokesman was that, we could take the lot, if the International Food Council would allow us to do so. Surely it is the business of the Government to do what they can for the benefit of the consumers in this country. Let them buy the cocoa and chocolate at the cheapest price which they think is a fair price and see that that money is passed straight on to actual workers and growers in West Africa. Instead, we seem to be working through various buyers, and ignoring what the actual grower gets in West Africa. I suggest that the Ministry of Food should do what they can to obtain the best treatment both for the consumers in this country and for the actual producers in West Africa, leaving out other considerations. If this were done, it would be fair to all, and the housewife here would be satisfied.
  10.46 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Dr. Edith Summerskill): A rather curious situation has arisen here. The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) has prayed against an Order made by my Department, but all the attack has been levelled against the Colonial Office. I do not know what may have been said before this Order was made, and the representative of the Colonial Office will be able to answer questions put to him as to the policy pursued, so far as the activities of his West African Produce Control Board is concerned. The purpose of this Order is simply to prevent the re-sale of raw cocoa, after it has been allocated to manufacturers, except with the consent of the Ministry of Food, and at a price which does not exceed the price originally paid.
  I agree with hon. Members opposite that an examination of increases in the price of cocoa must lead any person interested in the matter to make careful inquiries. But, may I remind the House that the background to this rapid increase in prices is simply that there is a world shortage of cocoa. Estimated production for 1946–47 is about 612 thousand tons, against the estimated total requirements of 780 thousand tons to 800 thousand tons. Before the war, the position was exactly the reverse. For instance, in 1936–37,
  1648
  there was a peak production of 752 thousand tons as against a total consumption of 680 thousand tons. During the early part of the war, the sudden disappearance of the European markets limited the demands from the United Kingdom, and it was very difficult for the producing countries to market their crops. and prices tended to decrease. The hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith) reminds the House of what was the position in 1944. But then production was falling owing to the ravages of the diseases mentioned by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale. But the rise in price which might then have taken place was kept in check by the maintenance of the American ceiling, which, as has rightly been said, stood at 8.9 cents per lb. From 1944 until the middle of 1946 the pressure of increased demand on supplies continued, and it was evident that the ceiling price would have to be raised. As a result of long negotiations with America, prices were fixed. The hon. Member for Ashford asked how this price came about. I would inform the House that no price is arrived at without long and protracted discussion—[Interruption]—Hon. Members opposite may accuse us of having arrived at these figures in an arbitrary manner, but I assure them that such is not the case. Most careful calculation is made before prices are fixed.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Who takes part in these discussions?
  Dr. Summer-skill: Obviously the people interested take part. The hon. Member must remember that so far as the Ministry of Food are concerned we act in the role of customer.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Was the trade consulted?
  Dr. Summerskill: Certainly. As a result of these discussions the price was raised to 14 cents, at which it was believed most interested parties, including the African natives, would be satisfied. Unfortunately, after 2nd October, 1946, when this new price came into operation, there was a change of heart and before the new price could be properly operated the Americans decided to remove all controls. That was on 23rd October, 1946. Although members may object to the removal of controls we have no power to dictate to a sovereign State.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Had the Americans been consulted?
  Dr. Summerskill: Certainly. I have already told the hon. Gentleman that we had long discussions with the Americans.
  It is the policy of the West African Control Board to sell to all purchasers at the same price, but in practice this means selling at the price obtainable on the New York market. At the beginning of the present buying season, that is, in October of last year, we endeavoured to obtain a contract for the whole of our requirements, roughly 100,000 tons, at the then American ceiling price. The Board was unwilling to contract forward, and sold us only about one-quarter of our requirements and at the same time sold a similar proportion to the United States. A further quarter was released by the Board to us and other countries in December, and the balance in January, and each time the price showed a steep increase.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: That was a year's supply?
  Dr. Summerskill: Yes, from October, two quarters of the supply, and then a half. We have always followed, as the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale said, a policy of "no profit, no loss," and the 119 shillings per cwt. at which we are now selling cocoa to manufacturers, will cover, but only just cover, the average price we have had to pay of 105s. per cwt. and, on top of that, the freight and distribution costs. Some of my hon. Friends asked when evidence was given before the Select Committee why we have stepped up this price from 51s. to 119s.; why we did not run it up more gradually, following the trend of world prices. Our reason for doing so is very simple. It is not practicable for the trade or 'convenient to the public to be constantly changing the retail prices of the finished article. Very elaborate calculations have to be made. Furthermore it is uneconomic. Wrappers and labels have to be printed, and price changes have to be given adequate publicity. And the trade made strong representations to us to step up the price from 51s. to 119s. in one stage.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: Can the hon. Lady tell me whether there were lage stocks in the hands of the manufacturers? It is an enormous profit to give people—more than 100 per cent.
  Dr. Summerskill: No. I think the hon. Member knows—he is interested in the cocoa trade—I have answered questions about stocks. They are not very large. I may be able to give the Hon. Member some figures later on, but I have been informed that the stocks were not very large. I can assure hon. Members that, as far as manufacturers' profit is concerned, the public has been safeguarded. All manufacturers want to increase their margins, whatever commodity they may be selling, and the distributors of cocoa and cocoa products, during the next year, will be receiving a profit of £5 million in excess of that which they received last year, and, in our opinion, that is adequate. I think that, as far as the Ministry of Food is concerned, the House will agree that we had no alternative but to make this Order, and that no blame can be attached to the Department. I therefore ask the House to reject this Motion.
  Lord William Scott: Can the hon. Lady tell us whether this lifting of controls by the Americans last October, came as a surprise to the authorities in this country who were dealing with this matter?
  Dr. Summerskill: Certainly.
  10.56 p.m.
  Mr. Baldwin: The hon. Lady seems somewhat disappointed that the attack has been on the Under-Secretary for the Colonies rather than on her Department. I do not presume to attack the hon. Lady, but I want to ask her some questions. I am sure that the consumers of cocoa and chocolate must be obliged to the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) for bringing forward this question, and will be particularly grateful to him as this is another nail in the coffin of bulk buying. I hope that all that remains to be done now is to put on the lid and screw it down.
  Mr. Alpass: What about Argentine meat?
  Mr. Baldwin: I would like to ask what the Board which was set up has done to implement the purpose for which it was set up. The object was to secure among other things, fair prices for the producer and to stabilise prices year after year. In the Order issued in July last, the

  1651
  price was put at 51s. per cwt. In the Order issued in January, it was put at 119s. per cwt. If that is stabilisation of prices, I do not know what the term means.
  It was also understood that the Board's operations would protect the producer, and a consumers' committee was set up in London to see that the consumer was protected. I would ask the hon. Lady whether, in fact, that committee did review the price of cocoa at 119s. per cwt. It would be interesting to know what was their comment on a rise of over 100 per. cent. The international body seems to make a mess of all the products which it handles. On 22nd January last, the hon. Lady said that it had no effective power to make recommendations to the member Governments. If they have not executive power, why should they interfere in the free play of the market? Their actions have been disastrous all along the line as far as the consumers are concerned. They have operated in allocating supplies of maize, and so forth, and bulk buyers have gone forth to buy in the Argentine, with the result that the Argentine have taken over the selling, and have been making 100 per cent. profit on everything they have sold. The International Emergency Committee was mentioned in the Committee's report, and that is the only excuse I have for raising that matter now. I want to make a practical suggestion to the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies with regard to the huge sum of money which has been accumulated by the Produce Board. I am well aware that that huge sum of money should not be paid over direct in cash to West Africa. My suggestion is that it should be—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): The hon. Member may not discuss on the Prayer the question of the accumulated funds. That comes under the Colonial Office.
  Mr. Baldwin: I will not pursue that matter, but I will suggest that the Colonial Office should set up an inspectorate in West Africa to tackle the question of disease among the cocoa trees out there, and that they should pay the West Africans for every tree which is diseased and which is cut down—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That matter does not arise on the Prayer.
  Mr. Baldwin: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. All I wish to say is that if the price that is being paid by the consumers of this country for cocoa were allowed to get through to the producers of cocoa, the result would be that they would be encouraged to produce, and the one thing that fetches down world prices is to pay a high price for the article so that the producers are encouraged to produce, and the price soon comes down to an economic level. If you do not allow free play of the market, you will have controls for ever.
  11.3 p.m.
  Mr. James Callaghan: If there is one clear lesson that the party opposite should draw from this Debate tonight, it is that never again should they appeal for the lifting of controls from food in this country. Here we have a situation in West Africa in which the price of cocoa is being doubled because of the removal of controls in America. Not an ounce more cocoa is going into anybody's larder.
  Mr. Erroll: That is the whole point. The price of cocoa in West Africa is not being increased. That is one of our complaints. It is remaining at a low figure.
  Mr. W. Fletcher Mr. W. Fletcher rose—
  Mr. Callaghan: Perhaps if I am allowed to utter another sentence, I shall be able to give way to the hon. Member.
  Mr. W. Fletcher: The price has been increased by the arbitrary decision of the Board to increase its price up to that in New York. There was no compulsion on it to do so.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That sounds very much like another speech by the hon. Member.
  Mr. Callaghan: The fact that hon. Gentlemen are very ready to interrupt me seems to indicate that I might be saying something to which they take exception in their propaganda in the country. The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) is quite right. The price in West Africa is not being increased to the Africans by the same extent as it is being increased on the American market. Of course, it is not. The speculator in the

  1653
  American market wants to pocket it himself. He is not giving it back to the Africans. Everyone knows—as indeed the evidence says clearly—
  Mr. W. Fletcher: Where?
  Mr. Callaghan: In the report. When the Director of Cocoa was called, and my hon. Friend the Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest) asked him about this profit and he said:
  "I do not think the American manufacturers are particularly enthusiastic about it."
  I should think not. The cost to them is being doubled. Indeed, they are not enthusiastic:
  "It is the Wall Street brokers, who see chances of making quick profits."
  [Interruption.] You can grumble and mutter as long as you like—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must inform the hon. Member that I was not grumbling and muttering, but even if I were, the hon. Member should not comment upon it.
  Mr. Callaghan: Of course, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, your benign countenance shedding its rays upon us could never be exposed to that criticism. I was referring to hon. Members opposite who are keeping up an undercurrent of grumbling because they are, at last, being exposed on this issue. If there was any more cocoa to be produced as a result of the increased price being paid, there might be something to be said for it. If the African was going to get the benefit of an increase in price, even though there was no more cocoa to be obtained, there might still be something to be said for it. But in a situation in which the profits go to the speculator, and the costs go to the man who is going to buy his bar of chocolate, and the housewife who is going to buy her tin of cocoa, there is little to be said for an increase in price of this nature.
  My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food argued that we had to follow American practice in this matter. I do not see why the British taxpayer should be mulcted of this sum merely because the Americans are being foolish. The situation is that they take off controls and their prices soar to undreamed of heights in the cocoa market. Why does the British taxpayer then have to pay the same price as the Americans are paying? The defence case says; "You cannot differentiate, because then you will
  1654
  be securing for yourself a preferential position in your Colonies." That argument might be valid, if we were talking in normal times about a normal market where the supply and demand for cocoa were approximately equal. But I see no reason why we should be quixotic in this matter, and it seems to me that with the vast accumulated fund—into whose details you have ruled, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, we may not go—it is bad policy to suggest that we should concede an increase in the price of cocoa which would practically double the price of a 3d. bar of chocolate at a time when we ought to be engaged in keeping down prices.
  I wonder whether part of the real reason for this increase is that the Ministry of Food are anxious to recoup some of their losses incurred by subsidising other food stuffs, from chocolate. I think it is highly possible. It might be a good stroke of business, and I would not exactly disagree with it, but if it is the case, let us know what is the policy in this matter and let us be able to adjudicate on it. The fact remains 'that this increase in price will not get us another ounce of a singularly inelastic commodity like cocoa. It takes five years for a cocoa tree to come into bearing, so that any increase in price today cannot possibly be reflected in the increase in the amount of cocoa we are going to get until about 1952. My personal opinion, is that the rewards that the African farmer is getting today, by comparison with the return he got before the war, are so great that he needs no further encouragement to grow more cocoa. That part of West Africa where the cocoa is grown, in the Ashanti territories—as we who went there at Christmas saw—is one of the most fertile and prosperous parts of Africa. The market at Kumasi would have brought tears to the eyes of any British housewife, and we were delighted to see it, because there is no reason at all why we should make a profit out of the African, as we have been doing. By all means let us pay him a fair price for his produce. There would be agreement from both sides of the House on that. There are occasions when paying a fair price can descend to a quixotry, and I believe that is what is happening today. Other countries have discriminated against us in this matter of international trade. When the record comes to be written, the history of the Argentine will make very interesting reading indeed.

  1655
  I do not think for a moment that there is any reason why this country should be compelled to pay a ridiculous price for its cocoa because we want, automatically, to follow the American market, especially when I recall that the chairman of the board which sells us the cocoa is sitting on the Front Bench. The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies is, of course, the man who is responsible, and he is assisted by his Permanent Secretary, the head of the West African Department. If he suggests he cannot control the activities of the West African Produce Board, I think he will expect us to take that suggestion with a grain of salt. I think there are good grounds for annulling this Order, and for putting before this House another Order containing a price which will be a reasonable increase over the existing price, which will not have the effect of nearly doubling the 3d. bar of chocolate that we buy, but which will have the repercussive effect of keeping down prices at a time when we want to keep them down.
  11.11 p.m.
  Commander Maitland; I am a little reassured by the speech of the hon. Member for South Cardiff (Mr.Callaghan), who has just returned from West Africa. But I think that there is a feeling in the House of anxiety to be reassured by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies—as I hope we shall be reassured—that the primary producer in this case is getting a square deal. I intervene for a few minutes to remind the House of what happened before the war. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food surprised me by saying that the peak year of production was 1936–37. I must admit, I have not the 1937 report of the Cocoa Commission with me tonight. However, I should like to remind the House, and particularly the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. of what happened when the cocoa producers in West Africa decided that there was a cocoa ring against them. They refused to produce cocoa, and they also refused to import goods from Lancashire; and on that occasion, Lancashire lost trade to the tune of £2 million.
  It may be that all is well now, but that report—which I am sure the Under-Secretary has read—brought out very clearly that, quite rightly, the West
  1656
  Africans are very highly organised, and that they can introduce trade pressure. It may well be that there is a world shortage of goods for West African importation at this moment, and that, therefore, they are taking our exports. But the Under-Secretary may be assured, on the evidence in that report, that if there has been an unfairness in this matter, our export trade will undoubtedly suffer in future. I think it only right to draw attention to that piece of previous history, which was a most devastating episode for Lancashire, and I hope the Under-Secretary will reassure us that it will not happen again.
  11.14 p.m.
  Mr. Assheton: I am sure the House is grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll) and the other hon. Members who have drawn attention to this Order. It is useful to remind the House that, in the Report of the Select Committee, the opinion is expressed that the special attention of the House should be drawn to this on the ground that an unexpected use is made of the power conferred by the respective Statutes. That is what have given rise to this interesting discussion, which has been over a fairly wide field. I want to make clear to the House and to the Government the reason why we object to this Order. We are not necessarily complaining, as the hon. Member for South Cardiff (Mr. Callaghan) was complaining, that the price is too high. What we are saying is, that if the consumer is having to pay this high price, he should not be denied the advantages which are gained from a high price, namely, the encouragement of the production by the producer. What the Government are doing here is to pay a greatly increased price—it is an enormous rise, from £45 to £119 a ton—but that enormous rise is not bringing about the increased production, which, in its turn, would lead to a fall in the price level, because the producer in West Africa is not getting the advantage of it. All this money is going into the hands of this Board. One day, we are told, some use is to be made of the money by this Board for the benefit of the West African producer. It seems to us on this side of the House that we are getting the worst of the bargain all round. The consumer at home is going to pay a heavy price;

  1657
  the Colonial producer is not going to get a price sufficiently high to tempt him to increase his production. We do not see the advantage of all this to us, though we see the advantage there may be to certain interests in other countries. We can understand that.
  I should like to challenge what the hon. Member for South Cardiff said when he was referring to the New York brokers. In studying the minutes of evidence in the Fifth Report of the Select Committee on Statutory Rules and Orders we see that very point was put to the expert witness by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith. I quote from the evidence:
  "It is not really going to the American market?—No it is not going to the Americans.
  Not to Wall Street speculators, or anybody of that sort?—No. It is going to the West African Control Board; and I hope they use if wisely."
  The Control Board are getting this increased price, and not giving it to the producer.
  Mr. Callaghan: What I intended to say, and I think did say, was that, whereas the Ministry of Food is selling this cocoa at approximately £115 per ton, which is 119s. per cwt., American speculators have been selling it at 30 cents a pound—approximately £167 a ton. It is that margin of £52—approximately 50 per cent. more than the price at which the Ministry of Food is selling—which is going to the pockets of the speculators.
  Mr. Assheton: It is not going to the pockets of the speculators so far as it appears here, however.
  Mr. Callaghan: No.
  Mr. Assheton: I am glad the hon. Gentleman agrees. The hon. Lady said there was no alternative to making this Order. The hon. Member for South Cardiff agrees there is an alternative to making this Order. The alternative, to my mind, is to get rid of the control exercised by the International Emergency Food Council. That body is the nigger in the woodpile here. It does the allocating, but does not fix the price. It allocates a certain amount to the United States. There is no free market in the United States, because if the price rises,
  1658
  no other supplies can come forward from West Africa, because of the allocation made by the International Emergency Food Council; and, therefore, the free market that we, on this side of the House, would like to see does not even exist in New York.
  Mr. Paget: If we have a free market of that sort it means we do not get any cocoa at all.
  Mr. Assheton: Not at all. We should get an increased production of cocoa
  Mr. Paget: Five years hence.
  Mr. Assheton: If we could have our way, we should let the producer get an increased price, and he would then be tempted to produce more. I agree with some of the observations of the hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. H. Guest). He knows about these things in West Africa—the difficulty the producer had in getting a fair price, owing to the very large number of the middlemen who came between him and the price paid by the consumer. If the Colonial Office were going to make some good use of these funds by establishing, perhaps, an agricultural mortgage bank to get these producers out of debt, then we should begin to make some progress. It is the fact that they are now in debt that has been the trouble. That is the difficulty with which the Colonial Office has been trying to cope, but they have not yet been able to do it. I look forward to the Under-Secretary saying they have found a way of getting round this difficulty. I want to make it clear that we on this side of the House do not like the principle of bulk purchase. We think it will get us into trouble, and we do not like the way it has been done. We object to this Order under which the consumer is paying a high price, and the grower is not getting a price which will encourage him to produce more.
  Mr. Beswick: Would the right hon. Gentleman address himself to the point that when the question was asked in the Select Committee why the increased price was not given to the producer in order to encourage him to produce more, the reply was that if the native had any more at this time, it would merely lead to inflation? They could not buy any more commodities, and it would not benefit them and, presumably, they would not grow more.
  Mr. Assheton: I have heard that argument, and I should imagine that whoever used it was hard put to find an argument. I do not agree with it. It has been consistently said that people will not work any harder, because they will riot have anything to buy, but if that is told to an ordinary working-man, he will say it is not so. It is just the same with the West African. West Africa wants a lot more of our cotton goods from Lancashire. I do not think we shall have anything more to say until the Colonial Secretary has spoken, but we may then have some further comments to make. The House will expect to hear some very good reasons why the Order should not be annulled, otherwise hon. Members on this side of the House will have to go into the Lobby against the Government.
  11.23 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Ivor Thomas): When I saw this Prayer on the Order Paper I had a feeling it was directed less against my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Food than against myself. Hon. Members opposite may say with the poet:
  "Euphelia serves to grace my measure, But Chloe is my real flame."
  I think I also detected a slight note of envy amongst the hon. Gentlemen opposite who have a responsibility for directing businesses. I felt that if they had been chairmen of companies which had built up reserves of £20 million, of which £7 million were built up in the past six months, they would feel rather pleased With themselves. I am in that position, though only by virtue of my office and not by virtue of my own abilities, and I feel that I can fully justify the actions of the West African Produce Control Board. Possibly hon. Members might like to know of whom the Board consists. I will not spend time this evening in giving all the details, but the Board consists of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary as Chairman, three members of the Colonial Office by virtue of their posts, one representative of the Nigerian Government, one representative of the Gold Coast Government, three members appointed by the Secretary of State for their knowledge of the oil seed trade, and one member appointed by the Secretary of State for his knowledge of the cocoa industry, with a Director of Cocoa Marketing and an
  1660
  Acting Director of Oil Seeds Marketing who do the day-to-day work.
  The question has been asked: why has the price risen to the present height? I think it has been sufficiently explained that the world price of cocoa is determined by the price that the Now York buyers are prepared to pay. The cocoa production of West Africa is about 300,000 tons, which is about 45 per cent. of the world output. Of that, about 40 per cent. is taken by the American market—a very substantial proportion. In the early years of the war there was a surplus of cocoa. In fact, large quantities of cocoa had to be destroyed. That is the reason why, in those days, the United States was able to fix a relatively low ceiling price. There was an abundant supply of cocoa in the world, and they could get it fairly cheaply. More recently, cocoa has gone into short supply, as they say in the jargon of the trade. One reason is that there was little planting of new trees during the war. I do not think that anyone would dispute that this was inevitable in the stress of war. Then again, a large number of old markets have been reopened, and have taken the supplies which had gone to other countries during the war. Then there is the question of disease. The trees have been particularly affected by swollen shoot. I ought to point out that this is a physical factor, and has nothing to do with any financial question as has been suggested. It might, I suppose, be compared with phylloxera in vines, if I may venture to make such a comparison. I do not know whether cocoa drinkers have yet begun to talk about the virtues of the pre-swollen-shoot vintages.
  These are the reasons why cocoa has gone into short supply, and it was inevitable, when the control was lifted in the United States, that buyers should be prepared to pay a great deal more than had hitherto been the case. The United States price determined the world price. That price rose to £150 a ton at the highest, and has subsequently dropped to about £120 a ton. If hon. Members have followed me to that point, they will next ask why is it that we could not charge a lower price in this country than the world price. Indeed, that question has been put by several hon. Members on both sides of the House. The reason is that, in the first

  1661
  place, we could not discriminate against the United States in such a matter. It would be morally wrong to do so, to try to reap such an advantage for ourselves. We are also committed by the proposals which we have accepted as a basis for discussion in the negotiations for the International Trade Organisation. It would, therefore, not have been possible, on the ground of discrimination against the United States, to have charged a differential price in this country. There is an even deeper reason—which I am sure will he appreciated by hon. Members opposite as well as by those behind me—and that is that we are trustees in this matter for the Colonies, and it would be wrong for us to try to get a lower price for ourselves than could be obtained in the world market, especially when, under international arrangement, the quotas of cocoa which go to the various markets are determined by the International Emergency Food Council
  I have, I think, carried hon. Members with me to this point—that we could not have charged a lower price in this country than the world price.
  Mr. Paget: Surely it is a dangerous principle first to limit the supply to a particular market, then to let the market inflate because of the limited supply, and to say these inflated prices shall be the yardstick to measure the world price.
  Mr. Thomas: That argument, if I apprehend it correctly, is really based on a misunderstanding. It is not possible by any means of this character to increase the world supply of cocoa. We are exceedingly anxious to sell all the cocoa we can to the U.S. Cocoa sold to the U.S. brings in dollars, a point which I am surprised has not been mentioned tonight. Anyone who can obtain dollars is a very popular man at No.11, Downing Street, these days. I am not at all ashamed that in the current cocoa season we have obtained in hard currency the equivalent of fifty million dollars from the sale of cocoa. The next stage in my argument is this, and I think that all hon. Members will agree with it: the surplus realised from the sale of cocoa must be used for the benefit of the inhabitants of Africa.
  Mr. Assheton: When the hon. Gentleman says "inhabitants," does he mean the inhabitants at large, or the producers of the cocoa?
  Mr. Thomas: I mean the producers primarily, but any benefit to the producers will be reflected, of course, in the economy of the Colonies at large. The surplus realised from the sale of cocoa must be held in trust for the people of Africa who produce it. Whether that surplus should be passed on at the present time is one of the points to which I must particularly address myself in replying to this debate. Here I think we come up against what struck me as a fundamental fallacy in the constructive speech which I was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton). If we passed on to the Gold Coast and Nigerian producers the high sums now being received for cocoa, that would not lead to an increase in the quantity of cocoa produced. It would result in inflation. The right hon. Gentleman particularly mentioned textiles. I was very glad that he did mention them, for one of our problems is that the African Colonies have a great need of textiles, but we are not able to supply them with the quantities they want. If we made available this large surplus at the present time to the West African colonies they would not have the consumer goods to buy, and the result would be inflation. There is no National Savings Movement in the African Colonies and no ingrained habit of saving as there is in this country, and, inevitably, the result of releasing this large quantity of money in the Colonies would be very serious inflation. I hope that I have carried hon. Gentlemen to this point, that the large surplus which has been realised must be held in trust for the people of the producing colonies. What are we going to do eventually with this surplus? That is a question which has been raised several times in the debate. The answer has, in fact, been given, in Command Paper 695o, "Statement on the Future Marketing of West African Cocoa," and I will read, if I may, paragraph 15:
  "It is apparent that the accumulated surplus will provide the organisations with the initial financial resources to maintain a steady purchase policy. The primary purpose for which it is proposed that these funds should be used is to serve as a cushion against short and intermediate term price fluctuations in the world market price of cocoa; but it will be within the discretion of the Boards to allocate funds at their disposal for other purposes of general benefit to the cocoa producers and the industry, such as research, disease eradication and rehabilitation, the amelioration of indebtedness, the encouragement of co-operation

  1663
  and the provision of other amenities and facilities to producers."
  This document was laid before Parliament in November, 1946. The right hon. and learned Member for the City of London mentioned in particular the question of agricultural indebtedness, and I was very glad he did so because it is a major problem in many Colonies. That is laid down in this White Paper as one of the things for which this surplus can be used.
  Mr. Speaker: The White Paper is not under discussion now.
  Mr. R.S. Hudson): On that point of Order, Mr. Speaker, may I call your attention to the fact that in the Minutes of Evidence referred to earlier, the Committee state that special attention should be drawn to this point, and ask what is to be done with the money accruing?
  Mr. Speaker: This is quite out of Order in this discussion. The distribution of the £20 million surplus cannot be discussed here.
  Mr. Hudson: I was not challenging that, Mr. Speaker, but the main reason for the increase which we are discussing in this Prayer was given in evidence before the Select Committee, and the Government are, presumably, trying to justify their actions. I respectfully suggest that the reasons for the increase, if not the results, are relevant to this discussion.
  Mr. Speaker: That is a matter, I think, for the Colonial Office Vote.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: In view of your Ruling, Sir, I cannot discuss the matter further, but I have been asked how the surplus would be used. In any case, hon. Members will have the reference now, and can pursue the subject for themselves. I think that I need only add a word about future organisation. In a very short time, both in the Gold Coast and in Nigeria, Cocoa. Boards will be set up to take over the marketing arrangements for this commodity. The reasons for this step are constitutional, as we do not think that we should keep indefinitely the arrangements by which these prices are settled in London. These prices are to be settled in the Colonies concerned by boards which will be mainly representative of the producers, but with an element of consumer
  1664
  representation. The boards will set up in London a joint selling organisation to help in the disposal of their products, and the Secretary of State will set up a Consumers' Consultative Committee here. I hope that I have satisfied hon. Members that there is a good reason for the increase in the price, and that the surplus realised will be used in the best possible way in all the circumstances. Therefore, I think we should not divide on this matter, but rather go home and drink a cup of steaming cocoa.
  Mr. Assheton: The hon. Gentleman has referred to the inflationary effects of the West Africans in having this money to spend. Does he really think that if the natives spent the dollars which they might receive there would be an inflationary tendency?
  Mr. Thomas: The dollar resources of the Commonwealth are pooled, of course, and the Commonwealth get their own proper allocation out of the pool as is calculated best to serve Commonwealth interests.
  11.40 p.m.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: I do not want to transgress your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I am bound to say that I find it very difficult to reconcile what the Under-Secretary said with the evidence given by the Director of Cocoa. I think it raises a very important point of international relations. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the Minutes of Evidence he will see that the reason given by our people in New York on 2nd October, 1946, for suggesting an increase in the ceiling price of about 8.9 cents, was that at that time there was a strong feeling that the African native was not getting sufficient for his cocoa. That was the official reason given by the representatives of His Majesty's Government to the United States Government for increasing the price of cocoa. Now I submit that any reasonable person reading that would imagine that the United States representatives who were given that reason naturally assumed, if they agreed—as they did judging by the contents of the Minutes—to an increase in price, that that price would in fact go to the native African producer. We are suddenly told tonight that that is not going to be the case; far from going to the African native producer, it is being accumulated as a fund to be used for some wider purpose.

  1665
  I suggest that is the reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the remarks we have heard tonight. I do not hesitate to say in view of what we have heard that the Ministry of Food has "pulled a fast one' over the United States.
  Mr. Paget: Is this designed to be helpful to Anglo-American relations?
  Mr. Hudson: It is very much better that we should protest against this, than that the United States should learn tomorrow from the Under-Secretary's remarks, that a fast one had in fact been put over. It is much better that we should protest than that the State Department should protest.
  Mr. Callaghan: Does the right hon. Gentleman not know that this Board has been in existence since about 1941? The Americans have seen the White Papers. I have one in my hand, and one was published as long ago as September, 1944, dealing with the surplus and the fact that it is going to the fund. There is nothing new about this.
  Mr. Hudson: I dare say there is nothing new—
  Mr. Callaghan: The right hon. Gentleman said, "Suddenly tonight we learn."
  Mr. Hudson: The Under-Secretary in answering the question put by my right hon. Friend said this announcement was made in the White Paper of what was going to be done from the increased price in November, 1946. But on 2nd October, or soon after that, the Americans were desired to agree to a higher ceiling price.
  Dr. Summerskill: Can I give figures?
  Mr. Hudson: I am only going by the Minutes of Evidence, which say that there were discussions last summer, between us and the Americans, as to the advisability of increasing that ceiling price. This must have been the argument put forward by our representatives
  "because there was a strong feeling that the native African was not getting sufficient for his cocoa"—
  Mr. Callaghan: Read on.
  Mr. Hudson: I will:
  "and there was also the complication of the Brazilian market; and we felt that if we could fix a figure which was more reasonable, it might commend itself to the Africans and be acceptable to the Americans."
  On the basis of that, they went on—
  Hon. Members: Read the whole sentence.
  Mr. Hudson: I have read the whole sentence.
  Mr. Callaghan: I think the right hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting the matter.
  Mr. Hudson: If the House thinks I am misrepresenting the case, I will read it all again:
  "There were discussions last summer between us and the Americans as to the advisability of increasing that ceiling price, because at that time there was a strong feeling that the native African was not getting sufficient for his cocoa, and there was also the complication of the Brazilian market: the Brazilians would not abide by so low a figure as 8.9 cents., and we felt that if we could fix a figure which was rather more reasonable, it might commend itself both to the Africans and to the Brazilians, and be acceptable to the Americans. Finally, after much discussion, it was agreed that the American ceiling price should be increased to 14.5 cents."
  Anyone reading that must agree that the basis on which we suggested increasing the price to be paid by us was that the Africans should get more, yet we are told that this money, instead of going to the individual Africans—and, presumably, the Americans expected it to do, from the statement issued in November—is going into a pool, some of which may eventually reach the individual Africans. I do suggest that the explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary is prima facie evidence that we have put a fast one over the Americans.
  11.48 p.m.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: If I may reply briefly, the date of November when the statement was issued is not really relevant, as the policy was adumbrated in a White Paper issued in 1944 (Cmd. 6554) by the Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was a Member. With regard to the question whether the surplus will go to the local producer or not, it will go eventually to the local producer, and will do him more good if it goes in the manner we suggest than if it goes in the manner proposed by the right hon. Gentleman. With regard to the quotation which he has made from the Minutes of Evidence, it is the case that we represented that the American ceiling price ought to be raised, and the price was eventually raised, but these discussions are also irrelevant, because, a little while afterwards, the ceiling price was taken off by the

  1667
  Americans themselves, and the free market price rose to more than double the ceiling price, which, I think, proves that we were not asking too much.
  11.50 p.m.
  Mr. Erroll: It I might have the right of a brief reply to a most interesting discussion, I should like to say that there are some points with which the Under-Secretary has not dealt adequately. First, as to the question of consistency in the marketing policy of the West African Produce Control Board, the Under-Secretary said it would not be fair to discriminate in Britain's favour when selling West African produce, but that is precisely what he does in regard to other produce from West Africa. We get a much more favourable price for palm oil and groundnuts, and cocoa is the only product for which we do not have a favourable price arrangement. Secondly, it is said that it takes five years to grow a new cocoa tree. That is quite true, but the Minister's present policy will not encourage the growers to plant any new trees. The item in the evidence which is so striking has been glossed over rather cleverly. It is that
  "there is also the complication of the Brazilian market."
  That complication is a complication of increasing productivity because of a healthy price structure.
  Mr. Callaghan: No.
  Mr. Erroll: It is the free market in Brazil which is causing the increase in productivity in Brazil. The growers are planting fresh trees, and production is increasing, whereas in West Africa, where the natives are getting a low pegged price, production is steadily declining year by year, as the Minutes of Evidence show. My third point is in regard to the £20 million surplus. Of course, we are familiar with the White Paper that was issued in 1946, but we are sure it was never intended that the surpluses would be of the order of £20 million available for distribution in the manner described in that White Paper. For these three reasons, we feel that we shall have to press the matter to a Division.
  Question put,
  "That the Raw Cocoa (Control and Maximum Prices) (Amendment) Order, 1947 (S.R. & 0., 1947. No. 552), dated 28th March, 1947. a copy of which was presented on 1st April, be annulled."
  The House divided: Ayes, 43; Noes, 14o.

  Division 214.]

  AYES.

  [11.51 p.m.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Ramsay, Maj. S

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R

  Haughton, S, G

  Scott, Lord W.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S (Southport)

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col W

  Hurd, A.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

  Kendall, W. D.

  Studholme, H. G.

  Callaghan, James

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Challen, C.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Teeling, William

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Lucas, Major Sir J.

  Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.

  Crowder, Capt. John E

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  De la Bère, R.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Dedds-Parker, A. D

  Mellor, Sir J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES

  Drayson, G. B

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Mr. Erroll and

  Fox, Sir G.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Mr Walter Fletcher.

  Gage, C

  Pete, Brig. C H. M

  NOES.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Collindridge, F.

  Fairhurst, F.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Ganley, Mrs C. S

  Ayrlon Gould, Mrs. B

  Corvedale, Viscount

  Gilzean, A.

  Barton, C.

  Crawley, A.

  Glanville, J. E. (Canton)

  Bechervaise, A. E

  Daggar, G.

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Ballenger, Rt. Hon J

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)

  Berry, H.

  Deer, G.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Bing, G. H. C

  Delargy, H. J.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  Binns, J.

  Diamond, J

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Blackburn, A. R

  Dobbie, W.

  Hale, Leslie

  Blyton, W. R.

  Dumpleton, C. W.

  Hannan, W (Maryhill)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Dye, S.

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Holman, P.

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Hoy, J.

  Champion, A. J

  Evans, John (Ogmore)

  Hubbard T

  Janner, B.

  O'Brien, T.

  Stubbs, A. E.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Jager, G. (Winchester)

  Paget, R. T.

  Swingler, S

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Symonds, A. L.

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Pargiter, G. A

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Peart, Capt. T. F

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Keenan, W.

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Kenyon, C.

  Popplewell, E.

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Kinley, J

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Lang, G.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Lavers, S.

  Pryde, D. J.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

  Ranger, J

  Walkden, E.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

  Watson, W. M.

  Mack, J. D.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Weitzman, D.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Mackay, R. W. G (Hull, N.W.)

  Royle, C.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Scollan, T

  West, D G.

  McLeavy, F.

  Segal, Dr. S.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W

  Shackleton, E. A. A

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Sharp, Granville

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St Helens)

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Monslow, W.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Wills, Mrs. E. A.

  Moody, A. S.

  Skeffington, A M.

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Snow, Capt. J. W.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Soskice, Maj. Sir F

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Sparks, J. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Steele, T.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Stokes, R. R

  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR (PAY)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]
  12.1 a.m.
  Mr. Bing: Very often we have an opportunity of considering the case of prisoners of war but so far as I know, we have never, on an Adjournment Debate, considered the case of prisoners of war who have suffered more than any other type of prisoner of war: I mean British prisoners of war in enemy hands. I do not think, therefore, late as the hour is, that the House will feel we have wasted time if, in half an hour, we are able to show that many British prisoners of war have been, through the wrong operation of the Royal Pay Warrant, deprived of large sums of money which are, in fact, due to them.
  Let me take the case of a constituent of mine, not because I want to raise a personal case but because this particular case is, I think, typical of the case of hundreds of other N.C.Os. By what I think the House will agree is an inhumane operation of the regulations, these men are deprived of large sums of money which are, in fact, due to them. My constituent, a Mr. Headford, was just an ordinary regular soldier, a man who had served 13 years with the Colours and 10 years with the Reserve, and who, at the beginning of the war, thought he ought to
  1670
  volunteer again. He joined, up, and found himself in Singapore in February, 194I. On 13th February, 1941, he was appointed a lance-corporal, and a few days later, when the fortress surrendered, he found himself, like so many other people, a prisoner of war. As my right hon. Friend will *appreciate, all these units kept together, and this particular lance-corporal performed duties as an N.C.O. far above the work of an ordinary lance-corporal. He was a mess sergeant for an officers' mess of no less than 375 officers, seven of whom were colonels—a task, on the small rations then available, which would have stretched the tact and patience of any very senior N.C.O.
  My right hon. Friend will realise that had that man been a regular officer, under Article 116 of the Pay Code he would have been entitled to promotion during the period when he was a prisoner of war. But, of course, he was just an ordinary regular soldier. I am not even asking that he should be paid for the rank he occupied. I am not even asking that he should be paid for the job that he did—though, if I might make this comment to my right hon. Friend, there is something to be said for the principle of the rate for the job, even in the Army. I am only asking my right hon. Friend that he should pay this Mr. Headford, and hundreds of other N.C.Os. like him, in accordance with the provisions of the Royal Warrant. Let me make this point quite clear. Hon. Members who have served

  1671
  in the Army during the war will know that there were two types of N.C.Os. There was the N.C.O. who was outside the establishment, for example, the so-called unpaid lance-corporal, who, however long he was a lance-corporal never received any pay and never got any higher. There were also appointments made within the establishment. The appointments which were made within the establishment were made in accordance with the regulations laid down in the Royal Warrant for Pay, Appointments and Promotions.
  If my right hon. Friend has a copy of the Royal Warrant and cares to turn it up he will find that the relevant Articles are Articles 794, 795 and 796. Let me just quote them to him, so that the point will be perfectly plain. Article 794 of the Royal Warrant says:
  "All vacancies"—
  this is during wartime—
  "… shall be filled, in the first instance, by the grant of acting rank or appointment …
  Article 795 provides that;
  "A soldier granted acting rank or appointment … shall not be eligible for the pay of the higher rank or appointment until it has been held for 21 consecutive days. …
  Thus, my right hon. Friend will see there is only one type of appointment within the establishment. The only difference is if a man loses the appointment in the first period of 21 days he is not entitled to his pay for it. That leaves vague what the position of the prisoner of war ought to be. But the Royal Warrant goes on specifically to provide for this and sets out an Army Council Instruction which lays down specifically the position; and it says:
  "An acting N.C.O. who is taken prisoner of war will be automatically struck off the strength of his unit but will be allowed to retain the acting rank or appointment held at the time of capture, together with entitlement to the corresponding rates of pay."
  Nothing could be plainer or more obvious than that that refers to acting rank, and not to paid acting rank; but if the right hon. Gentleman should be in any doubt about it, let me refer him to the sub-paragraph which follows, and which differentiates between "paid acting rank" and "acting rank."
  What has the Secretary of State come here to tell us? That the soldier would be a fool to believe what is in the Royal Warrant? That it does not mean what it says? My submission to the House is that
  1672
  it is absolutely, perfectly clear and plain what the Royal Warrant means. It means that once Mr. Headford became an acting lance corporal in the establishment he was an acting N.C.O.; on being taken prisoner he was entitled to retain his rank; if he retained his rank for more than 21 days he was entitled to be paid for it. Nothing, to my mind, could be clearer. What is the answer of the War Office? As I understand it from the somewhat confused correspondence sent to me on their behalf, there is some new regulation; that the Army Council got together at some time long after my unfortunate constituent, Mr. Headford, was taken prisoner; that they have tried in some hole and corner way to make a regulation which sets aside the Royal Warrant. That seems to be the argument. Perhaps, the Secretary of State will tell me on what page of the Royal Warrant we can find anything that sets aside its provisions. I have been careful to provide myself with a copy of the Royal Warrant of 1915; and, so far as my right hon. Friend has seen that the House has had them, I have studied every amendment made since that Warrant was issued. I have searched the Royal Warrant very carefully. I shall be very glad indeed to know where we can find this new provision which is to set aside the Royal Warrant. Is it the case that there is a regulation, unprinted, unknown, never communicated to the people affected by it—very humble people, soldiers broken in health through captivity—by which they have been denied the pay provided by the Royal Warrant for the jobs they did? I hope I am not right: I hope that that is not the case my right hon. Friend is going to make. If it is, I think I shall not be alone on this side of the house—if this is the way the War Office is being administered—in seeking another occasion when it is possible to divide the House so that on a matter of administration of this sort we can test the feeling of the House by a vote.
  12.10 a.m.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Bellenger): My hon. Friend has tonight brought forward an individual case of one of his own constituents in order to illustrate a principle. Perhaps it may be more convenient if I explain what the principle of promotion has been during this last war. During the first world war, when promotion was not so indirect, it was found that quite frequently

  1673
  N.C.Os. and, indeed, officers, having taken the rank which they held, ought not to be deprived of it during the war, whatever happened. If they became casualties, if they were sick or if they were prisoners of war, but particularly if they became casualties or non-effectives, they held that rank, and thereby blocked promotion for many others who were doing the job. They would not be doing the job because they were non-effectives, and in war time there is a war establishment, which fixes the number of particular appointments or ranks that can be held.
  In the last war the War Office devised a system whereby the man doing the job, or holding the appointment, received the pay and the rank of that appointment, but with lance appointments, which were made by the commanding officer and not by the records officer, it was decided that there should be a probationary period of 21 days during, which it could be seen whether the man was really fit to hold that particular appointment or rank. If the individual held that appointment—in this particular case the appointment of lance-corporal—for 21 days, he was then confirmed in that rank, and was paid for that rank from the date when he was first appointed lance-corporal. In the case of the constituent of my hon. Friend the man might not have held that appointment for 21 days, even if he had not been taken prisoner. He might have become a non-effective for various reasons such as sickness, and this would have prevented him from holding that particular job for the 21 days, after which his acting rank would have been converted into temporary rank. After that temporary rank, there was the war substantive rank, and this was a more permanent rank.
  Mr. Bing: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, would he direct his attention to the very clear instruction on page 250 of the Royal Pay Warrant? The point I was trying to make was that there is a distinction made in the Royal Warrant between "paid acting rank," and "acting rank" which is an appointment without pay. Paragraph (b) states that an acting N.C.O. who is taken prisoner will be automatically struck off the strength of the unit or formation, but will be allowed to retain acting rank or appointment at the time of capture, together with the corresponding rates of pay. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell
  1674
  us why he is suggesting the man is not entitled to hold that rank?
  Mr. Bellenger: I am going on to explain why he could hold the rank, but not the pay of the rank. Acting rank is unpaid for the first 21 days, and it would only be after the 21 days had expired, that the unpaid acting rank would be converted into paid acting rank; antedated to the date on which he was appointed In his case what happened was that the man was appointed acting lance-corporal, and, of course, unpaid. Two days afterwards—not several days as my hon. Friend says—he was captured. Therefore, he could never have completed the 21 days after which he would have been entitled to temporary rank on which he would have drawn his pay.
  My hon. Friend is probably a little confused as to that Article of the Royal Warrant which, as he read it, says that the acting rank could be held while the soldier was a prisoner of war. As I shall show in a moment by reading the appropriate Army Order, it could be held not only while he was a prisoner of war, but up to a period of 61 days after being repatriated to this country on release from captivity. My hon. Friend made great play with the point that the Army Council Instruction would be unknown to the simple soldier, and that he would not get it. If I may say so, it is probable that the Royal Warrant would be unknown to the simple soldier. My hon. Friend knows that soldiers, except a few, do not study King's Regulations or the Royal Warrant. I admit that there has been a good deal of misunderstanding about the acting unpaid ranks and the temporary ranks, and the war substantive ranks. In relation to a prisoner of war the Army Order was 155 of 1944. The Army Order defined this, but did not alter the situation which was prevailing in 1942. I may say that Army Orders were purchasable even in war time by members of the public. [An. HON. MEMBER: "By prisoners of war?"] A prisoner of war could not get them, but those at home who were interested in his affairs could have obtained them.
  Mr. Paget: Have the Army Council authority to vary the Pay Warrant?
  Mr. Bellenger: Yes, they have authority to vary it from time to time. The Army Order did not alter the position,

  1675
  even under the Pay Warrant which was prevailing in 1942, at the time when my hon. Friend's constituent was taken into captivity. Perhaps the House will permit me to read the passage in that Order which explains that it does not vary the Royal Warrant for Pay. I think the House will see that this Army Order shows clearly that this particular lance-corporal, and indeed all others and not only those in captivity, are affected in a similar manner, because they become non-effective, and are prevented from fulfilling the essential condition laid down in the Royal Warrant, namely that they must hold acting unpaid rank for 21 days before they can be confirmed into temporary paid rank. The Order reads:
  "An officer or soldier holding temporary or acting rank"—
  and acting rank was the one held by this lance-corporal—
  "at the time of his captivity by the enemy, or he becomes missing, shall continue to hold that rank"—
  that is where the hon. Member has perhaps misunderstood the situation—
  "shall continue to hold that rank so long as he is a prisoner of war or missing."
  This lance-corporal held that rank all the time that he was a prisoner of war. The Order further states:
  "No part of the period during which an officer or soldier is a prisoner of war or missing shall count towards any period of service necessary to qualify for the pay of an acting rank, for conversion of acting rank into temporary rank, or for the conversion of either into war substantive rank."
  It is clear from the passage I have read that an individual can hold his rank. The purpose of this provision was to freeze the pay of a prisoner of war at the time he was captured. This man's rank was not that of lance-corporal, but that of private with appointment to lance-corporal. Therefore what happened was that his pay was frozen at the rate which he was receiving when captured, but his rank was held during the whole of the period of captivity.
  Mr. Mellish: Let us get this clear. He was not given the rank he was entitled to after serving the 21 days, because he spent these 21 days in captivity through no fault of his own?
  Mr. Bellenger: He may not have been entitled. If he had not been captured he might not have fulfilled that qualifica-
  1676
  tion of serving 21 days of this probationary period. If nothing had happened, and he had served his probationary period he would no doubt have been confirmed in his acting rank and been given the pay of that rank dated back to the time of the appointment. Perhaps the House will allow me to read a little further:
  "Any part of the period during which any person covered by paragraph I is a prisoner of war or missing shall reckon towards any period of the service necessary to qualify for pay of acting rank for conversion of acting rank into temporary rank or conversion of either into war substantive rank."
  The whole purpose of war establishment is to provide a means by which "the Army can fulfil its duty. Its duty in war is to fight. Thus we require to have different ranks within different units as provided for in the war establishment. This soldier, like all others in similar cases, has not been able to fulfil the qualifications which would have entitled him to fill a particular part of the war establishment to which he was appointed and therefore he, was not paid for it. But many others not prisoners of war who did not fulfil that essential qualification of completing a 21 days' probationary period were not confirmed in pay.
  Mr. Bing: I think it would save argument if I might put the main point. The Secretary of State does not seem to be very familiar with Army Council Instructions. The right hon. Gentleman should address himself to the Pay Warrant and explain why there should be in one case a reference to acting rank in which a soldier could continue and draw the pay appropriate and in another case there should be a reference to a paid acting rank.
  Mr. Swingler: Will the Minister say why this Army Order was issued in 1944, if the Royal Pay Warrant is clear on the point?
  Mr. Bellenger: Frequently Army Orders are issued to explain parts of the Pay Warrant. There is no discrepancy between the two. One is part of the other.
  Mr. Paget: They are totally opposed
  Mr. Bellenger: I am stating what the Army Order says, and, in effect, it says what the Pay Warrant says. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I think we ought to let the Minister continue his speech
  Mr. Bellenger: My hon. Friend is endeavouring to show that unpaid acting rank is the same as paid acting rank.
  Mr. Paget: Do let us get this clear. A soldier granted acting rank or appointment under Article 794 will not be eligible for pay of higher rank or appointment, until he has held it for 21 consecutive days. That is "acting rank." Now, we turn to the Army Order and it says that an acting warrant officer or N.C.O. who is taken prisoner of war will be automatically struck off the strength of his unit or formation, but will be allowed to retain his acting rank or appointment at the time of capture, together with entitlement to corresponding rates of pay. Therefore, the acting rank shall be retained if the man is taken prisoner of war. There are different provisions if the man is wounded, and it is a great illustration of how wrong it is for a man to be forced to suffer this injustice without being able to appeal to a court.
  Mr. Bellenger: That is an entirely different matter. A prisoner of war captured before he completes the 21 days' probationary period is not entitled to the pay of the rank. Whatever the merits or demerits of the case may be, my hon. Friend is asking me to reverse the whole procedure which I have endeavoured to explain, and which dates back, not to 1944, but to the beginning of the war. Millions of men have served under these conditions, and it would be wrong for me, in my interpretation of the Pay Warrant, to reverse this whole procedure at this late stage and give this man the pay of a rank for which he did not fulfil the obligations laid down in the Pay Warrant and the Army Order concerned. I hope that whatever happens, at any rate, it will be agreed that it is too late to reverse the whole procedure.
  12.29 a.m.
  Colonel Wigg: May I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he should read King's Regulations to find whether it is not the case that the Regulations do not cover every case, and that there are some cases which should be met in the spirit if not in the letter? The Royal Warrant takes the case of a man in captivity, but this soldier is not in the same position.
  Mr. Bellenger: Barbed wire does not define a prisoner of war. A prisoner of war is one who is captured by the enemy, and who ceases to be responsible to his commanding officer, and becomes responsible to those who have captured him and who give him orders.
  Colonel Wigg: But this man was in a unit doing a specific job. I ask the Minister to remember the pleas which he has made in the past on behalf of soldiers. If he would give this N.C.O. the elementary justice, which the Army always gives when it understands the case, this man would be helped. The Secretary of State has demonstrated that he does not understand the case, and that he is hiding behind the barbed wire of the Regulations to deny this man his rights.
  Mr. William Teeling: Can the Secretary of State tell us the number of cases likely to be affected in this way? There are probably very few.
  Mr. Bellenger: I think there may be a considerable number, not prisoners only, but others in a similar position.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour,Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Order made upon 13th November.
  Adjourned at Twenty-nine Minutes to One o'Clock.

  H.M.S. "LEANDER" (RATINGS' RELEASE)
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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Lord Suffield—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.

COTTON INDUSTRY WAR MEMORIAL TRUST BILL.
2.35 p.m.
Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, there is a small Amendment which the promoters desire to insert in this Bill. It is hardly more than a verbal Amendment. It is to add words in line 16 of page 3 so that the beneficiaries under the Bill may include not only persons engaged in but also those who are concerned with the manufacture of textiles.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line i6, after "in" insert "or concerned with."—[The Earl of Drogheda.]
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
CITY OF BRISTOL ORDER;
BOROUGH OF CAMBRIDGE ORDER;
BOROUGH OF CHELTENHAM ORDER;
BOROUGH OF LYDD ORDER;
BOROUGH OF STAFFORD ORDER;
RURAL DISTRICT OF HAILSHAM ORDER.
LORD HENDERSON: I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department for extending Section one of the Act to the said areas be approved.—[Lord Henderson.]
On Question, Motion agreed to.

UNIVERSITY EDUCATION.
2.38 p.m.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER rose to call attention to university education in this country; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name. We are committed to a great increase in the university population of this country, an increase justified and necessitated by reasons I will explain to your Lordships. But we cannot double the number of undergraduates in this country, and we should have to double them to attain—perhaps I should say even to attain—the Scottish quantitative standard. We should have to multiply them more than eight times to attain the quantitative standard of the United States. We cannot do any of these things, not even the first, without raising all sort of questions about the effect of this revolution on our university system.
I shall try to say something as shortly as possible about these questions, but I wish to urge the Government to appoint not a Royal Commission but a Committee, either by asking the University Grants Committee to appoint a sub-committee of their own members for this special purpose, perhaps co-opting some people from outside, or preferably, by appointing a Departmental Committee on which the University Grants Committee would be largely represented. That is what I urge the Government to do. The Government have been most generous in providing money for the expansion of universities. Will they provide just a little of that rarer quality—reflection on the subject? That is all I ask, but I regard it as of very great importance, and I hope I shall be able to convince your Lordships of its great importance.
Great changes are imminent in the university education of Great Britain—particularly in the university education of England—and this is a necessary concomitant of the great revolution in English education brought about by

697
what I may call the Butler Act, that very great educational reform. The revolution brought about by the Butler Act may be described shortly as the removal of the great reproach on English education—that secondary education was confined to a small proportion of the population. In my view English secondary education was (not only in some ways; I will put no qualification on it) the best in the world. In my experience of American universities I used to observe that boys from school could begin research work in England about two years before they could be trusted to begin research work under the American educational system; that is, that the secondary education of this country was about two years ahead of the secondary education in America. On the other hand, it was confined to a comparatively small proportion of the population.
In 1938 (the last year for which I have figures) only 28 per cent. of the boys and girls of this country stayed at school beyond the age of fourteen. The Butler Act has now removed that reproach—and it was a reproach. We are now committed to providing secondary education for all. But (and this is what I want your Lordships to notice particularly) that great reform was connected with changed views as to the nature and quality of education. The Butler Act did not simply say: "Let us ensure that all the boys and girls in this country shall have access to What we now call secondary education" (at that time the education of the grammar school), but, "Let us bring it about that secondary education shall have three sides—the grammar school; the technical school and what is to be called the modern school." I am sure part of the great wisdom of the Butler Act was that it realised that when you attempt to make secondary education available for all, you do not take merely the kind of education which evolved when it was preserved for a minority. You ask yourself quite seriously: If we are to have secondary education for all, ought that secondary education to take on new forms? The Butler Act—or, at any rate, the reforms accompanying it—said "Yes." That is, you do not just have grammar schools, but also technical and modern schools.
As anyone concerned with education—particularly secondary education—is aware, the problem which arises from this
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reform is: Can we combine a high standard of English secondary education with a great increase in numbers—a three-fold increase in numbers? I think we can, but only so long as we recognize the point which the Butler Act has already recognized: that for those great numbers there must be different kinds of secondary education—all, I hope, of a high standard. If we had said: "Let us confine ourselves to calling the education given in grammar schools secondary education," I do not believe we could, for one moment, have multiplied the pupils going to grammar schools without affecting the standard of the grammar schools.
The same problem faces us with regard to university education in England. I think the university education of this country is of a very high standard; but it is confined to a small proportion of the population. Will your Lordships just consider these startling figures of the relative numbers of university students per thousand of the population in different countries? The last figures I have are for 1934. In that year the figures were these: In Italy one in every 808 of the population went to a university; in Germany, one in every 604; in Holland, one in every 579; in Sweden, one in every 543; in France, one in every 480; in Scotland, one in every 473; in the United States of America, one in every 125; in England, one in every 1,013; in Wales, one in every 741. That seems to me to make a very strong prima facie case. Can we really suppose that the standard of the intelligence of the English is so low, compared with the standard of the intelligence of my nation, that there should be that proportion? The answer is: "Nonsense." There is no question or shadow of doubt that those proportions are due to social and historical factors; and they ought to cease.
Do we really believe (I continue putting the point quite generally) that we need university education as little as all that—one in every 1,013? Lately there have been a great many more detailed considerations of this question. For example, there is the well-known Barlow Report. The Barlow Report came to the conclusion that in order to produce the number of properly trained scientists necessary to use our scientific possibilities in industry and elsewhere, we must, at least, double the output of properly trained scientific graduates in this country. The Report

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added—I do not think with less reason, but perhaps with less giving of reasons—that, in the opinion of the Committee, the same increase should take place in arts students. I hope to explain to your Lordships why that is so. In any case, they did recommend the doubling of the university output of scientists, with a corresponding increase in arts students. Anyone who sees what is happening in the universities at the present time, or who, like me, is continually requested to make room for the ever-increasing number of young men who want to study in already overcrowded colleges, must, I think, see that the pressure on the universities at the present time is not just the temporary effect of the combination of men coming back from the war and the ordinary number of applicants from the schools. There are increased demands, and there are demands from new sources; and I am sure those demands will continue and, indeed, even further increase.
Let me enumerate some of the factors making for that increase. There is, first, the point made by the Barlow Report. I should have thought that it was a commonplace that the prosperity and success of our industry depends to an extraordinary extent on the way in which it is fertilized by research, and that that fertilization by research depends on the number of scientists which the universities, or, at any rate, institutions of that calibre, can supply. Not only is there an increased reliance on research, but there is also an increased reliance on the universities to organize and direct it. That in itself produces (this is what the Barlow Report says) an ever-increasing demand for more students, and, therefore, for more teachers, more laboratories, and so on.
Further, there is the enormous increase in the national school system which has been brought about by the Butler Report, with its consequent increase in the need for teachers. You cannot discuss education at the present time with any local education authority without coming across the problem of teachers. One of the greatest defects of English education at the present time is the size of classes. I think that is a greater defect than anything else, and it cannot be put right without more teachers. The supply of teachers cannot be produced without increasing the number of people passing through the secondary schools and the universities,
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and at the moment we just cannot do it. No doubt all kinds of things are being tried, like emergency training schemes, and so forth, but it cannot properly be done, I am sure, without a great increase in the provision of education for teachers, and that has to be done in universities or in institutions of the university standard.
Then, again, there is the additional demand for professional men—especially, for example, for doctors. The Barlow Report, adopting that curious use of English which confines science to biology, physics, mathematics, geology, and what are called the various pure sciences—except for mathematics, I think they are all comparatively pure—refuses that description to medicine. Medicine is not a science, apparently; it is some empirical art. Nevertheless, we do know that if we are to have a properly equipped health service we must have a far greater number of trained doctors. They ought to be university trained, and they ought to have some understanding of what research means. That would involve a great increase in the number of medical undergraduates. I do not think there is any escape from that.
Further, there are demands from professions which have not hitherto relied on the universities, which is a very interesting development. More and more businesses concerned with problems of management arc going to the universities, not just for a man trained in the technical aspect of business but for one trained in problems of management, welfare, and things of that kind. There is also a great demand for training in what one may roughly call social service. I had the interesting experience last year of having a conference with some dozen representatives of local education authorities, who were meeting with the Oxford University Extra Mural Delegacy. I was very impressed with the fact that these local education authorities, confronted with the expansion of the social services, were asking more and more for men trained in the universities to deal with all sorts of problems concerned with the social services—welfare. and so on.
There are then increasing demands on the universities for specialized instruction, not necessarily leading to a degree. For example, just a month ago, when my college thought it had finally met all the demands for room for undergraduates and had really gone as far as it possibly could in that direction, the Colonial Office came

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along and said that they wanted to bring 150 people to Oxford for special training in the Colonial Service, and would we mind taking twelve? Well, we did mind, but we took them. Another interesting development to which I should like to call your Lordships' attention is the increasing demand on the universities for—to take a phrase from the Army—"re fresher courses." One of the results of the annoying habit of science to develop so rapidly is that graduates who go into medicine, or into the various spheres where scientific knowledge is used, find that that knowledge rapidly becomes out of date. It is well worth while to bring people back to the universities for short periods for refresher courses. That is a fairly recent development. I am sure it is going to grow, and I am sure it will he beneficent.
We talk quite lightly about the indispensability of research, but I do not consider that knowledge which reaches nobody but its discoverer is worth very much. That is a heretical thing for a University teacher to say—I ought to believe in knowledge for its own sake—but I really do not think knowledge is much good unless you manage to spread it through the people and use it in the population. It is very important, therefore, to see that those people, workers of all kinds in the community, whose success depends on their scientific knowledge, should be kept abreast of modern scientific changes. We all from time to time have sighed and thought how pleasant it would be if science would take a rest for twelve or fifteen years; but in our better minds we know that it would be a bad thing, and, in any case, we know that science will not do so. We must deal with that fact. Then, further, there is the whole growing field, sometimes called extra-mural and sometimes called adult education, for which the need of teachers is, I think, almost unlimited. Thus it appears to me that there is no question a all that the demand that our university population should be doubled is justified, if by university education you mean something quite wide—namely, education which people undergo whole-time between the ages of, let us say, 17 or 18 and 21 or 22. I think that demand is there now, but once the effect of multiplying by more than three the number of boys and girls receiving Secondary education has shown
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itself, I very much doubt if the present proposed doubling will be enough.
Suppose one leaves that further prospect alone, and takes this desire to double the university population. I submit that that in itself raises some very serious questions which ought to be considered. Are we to do this simply by asking existing institutions to preserve their character and to double their numbers? Can we expect institutions to preserve their character and their standard if they double their numbers? The University Grants Committee—which I mention. with the greatest respect, because I think it is a wonderful institution—has, so far as I understand, already completed the procedure of asking universities and university colleges how much they think they can add to their numbers, supposing that they are given money for staff and buildings and they are assured, through the far-sighted views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that they will be given that money. When you add up their answers the figures come to 80 per cent. out of the 100 per cent. required.
The State will provide the money; the Chancellor of the Exchequer has very largely increased the grant which the State gives through the University Grants Committee to the universities, and the money is there, or promised. The buildings at the present time are held up for the want of licences, and universities are troubled about the question of staff. I do not think that the problem of staff will be a problem for very long. Nobody who, like myself, is teaching at the present time in a university and knows something of the remarkable quality of the ex-Servicemen—many of whom have only just returned—can doubt that in a few years there will be a very remarkable supply of potential university teachers. They will have to have some training in research before they can profitably teach, and it will probably be, let us say, 1949 before this present shortage disappears. But that is only a matter of time.
Therefore, one might suppose that by the mere increase in the numbers in existing institutions the problem will be solved—or as nearly solved as political problems ever are in tins evil world. But I want to ask whether that is the best way to do it. Is there room, for example, for new institutions? Should we take only the institutions which exist

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and double their numbers, or should we have new university colleges? They will have the disadvantage at first of being small, but being small is not always a disadvantage for a new institution. If they are small they may also be experimental, and there are proposals for such colleges. I am familiar with one such proposal from the city of Stoke-on-Trent, and your Lordships may have seen in the papers similar demands from York, Carlisle, Brighton and, I think, other places. Ought that to be done? I do not think anybody knows, and at any rate I do not think any authoritative body has seriously considered the question.
Thirdly, and connected with that, should these new foundations be of the existing type? Are we quite clear that what we call the set-up in English university education—Oxford and Cambridge, and what are sometimes called the Civic and sometimes the Red Brick Universities—should be merely perpetuated? Is there not room possibly for further experiments? Anyone who is acquainted with modern American university education will know that in spite of a lot of things about it—especially its great State universities—at which we laugh, it has in the last ten to fifteen years made some extraordinarily interesting experiments in small colleges. I need only mention, for example, an interesting small college at Annapolis, which was started five to ten years ago. There have been more which have started with new ideas and made great contributions to the possibilities of university education.
At the present time, besides universities which are capable of granting degrees and maintaining their own standards, there are the university colleges—places like Exeter, Hull, Nottingham, Leicester and Southampton. Their students take their degrees with the University of London, and I think in the past the University of London has done the greatest service in this respect for the standard of growing institutions. I am not sure now whether that is the right pattern. I am not sure whether the obligation to work for the degrees of the University of London does not to some extent fetter the initiative and the experimenting of the smaller institutions. I do not say that positively and dogmatically, but I want to know, and I want someone to look into it.
I myself have had something to do with the proposed experiment at Stoke-on-Trent. Ever since I first knew it—about thirty years ago—the city of Stoke-on-Trent has hoped to have a university college. When this demand for increasing the university population was made, and there was a prospect that this dream might be realized, the promoters of the scheme sat down to ask themselves what kind of university college they ought to have. They took the view—I think rightly—that a local university college should have a close relation to the distinctive characteristics of the locality it serves. The distinctive characteristics of Stoke-on-Trent are the pottery industry and a quite extraordinary development of social services and adult education. Therefore, if it is to have a university college it should have a Chair of Applied Ceramics and first-class teaching in physical chemistry; that is not to say that it should not have sections dealing with the sciences. On the other side, it should give special emphasis—I do not like the word but it is difficult not to use it—on what we may call sociology—social studies, economics, social organization. Some people approve that idea, and some are shocked about it. I do not pretend to be impartial about it because I favour it; but again, I want that examined. I do not want it pushed aside by people saying that it has not so far been done and ought not to be done. We want to be able to follow the experimentation which goes on in America. It might be a great pity if this expansion were used only in a stereotyped way to make more rigid the existing pattern of university education.
Fourthly, are there alternatives to meeting all demands for higher education, especially higher vocational education, than simply by expanding the universities? Is there a place in this country for specialized institutions like those very famous institutions known as M.I.T. or Cal. Tech.? Here I can say with pleasure that the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, agrees with me. He always does, when he speaks of what he knows. Or, is there a place for institutions like the Ecoles des Sciences Politiques or des Etudes Polytechniques of France, or the great German Handelshochschule. My noble friend wrote a letter to The Times last August about that—I think most convincingly. I do not know the answer,

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but again I want that examined. I do not want it to go by default that there should not be such institutions.
Further, is there a place in this country for the equivalent of what is called the American college; that is, the small college giving only a Bachelor's degree and not the high degrees? These colleges have done some very interesting things. Here I should like to raise a much larger question, on which I feel much less positive. How far ought we to have, besides our old academic universities, something like the American model? So far, in discussing the prospects of expanded university education in this country, most people have asked, How many persons are there who do not now come to our existing universities but who could come to them and take their existing courses, and not lower the standard? That is much the same as if, when considering the recent great reform in secondary education, we had thought only of boys and girls coming to the grammar schools.
Consider the real meaning of that extraordinary American figure of one in 125 going to a university. Many of the institutions to which these American undergraduates go we should not consider universities. The President of Chicago, President Hutchins, relieving a burdened heart on the subject of American university education, recalls that the answer to his protest against specialized vocational education was that at one time the University of California founded a "Fellowship in Cosmetology," on the very reasonable ground that the practice of "cosmeticiary" was increasing in California more rapidly than any other profession. There are ridiculous examples of that kind. And yet I think that part of the great technical efficiency of America, of which in some ways we are seeing more and more every day, is connected with the fact that this enormous proportion of American young men have gone to some whole-time institution up to the age of 21 or 22.
I was talking in 1942 to a professor of physics at Los Angeles. Like another professor of physics, one with whom I am confronted, he had done a great deal to make our war effort more efficient. I remember his saying that his experience was that there was absolutely nobody to touch the English Honours graduate, the First Class research student. On the
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Other hand, he said: "Because a very great proportion of our Army—a far greater proportion than of your Army— have had not only secondary but some sort of university training, the application of those brilliant ideas of your research students is far more easily possible in the American Army than in the British Army." I do not know how far the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, can bear that out; it seems to me the best prima facie case for such a system, and a good example of the contrast between English and American university education.
Each has the defects of its qualities, and our business is to try to increase the numbers, as Americans realize to an overwhelming degree that their business is to increase their quality, I do not want to do anything whatever to lower the standard of the existing English universities or of that type of education, but I am not at all sure that there is not a strong case for imitating the Americans in having whole-time education up to university age. If we did that, we should go very far.
The other point I ant to make is how, and how soon, can we expand universities in this way? At tilt present time staffs are very much overworked. I find it difficult to convince the greater part of the population that university teachers do work hard. They are overworked on their own standard—which is, I think. a very high standard. They have to spend far too much time in administration, and in advising the Government and all kinds of bodies. Instead of doing our proper job we are—I will rot say wasting our time—obliged to give instruction to less informed people. The demand for that kind of advice is very great indeed. I happened quite recently to come across three instances in which outside bodies of great importance—one was the Colonial Office and the others were bodies of equal importance—have come to the university and said: "Would you lend us 'A.B.' for a year or two years?" That is a demand which is very bird to resist. When a college is asked by the Colonial Office to second one of its teachers who alone has the specific knowledge needed for his particular job, it seems to me that in the national interest one is bound to encourage him to go; to say to him: "This is your laboratory, and we will second you for the year." To do that sort of thing to any extent means increased university staffs, and we cannot increase them

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quickly; further, university people of the right standard cannot be quickly trained.
In these times the universities are finding it more and more difficult to do their proper job and to turn out men with the sort of training that they ought to have. After all, the highest kind of training—at least the highest kind of scientific training—depends upon the university undergraduate being in close touch with the scientific "swell." If you have too many undergraduates you use your great scientists in administration, and so lose something extraordinarily precious. You cannot do these things automatically. Therefore, I want this matter considered. I want somebody to get down to this and think it out.
Finally, there is one other sphere in which universities are expected to play an important part—the sphere of adult education. How best are universities to fit in with the local education authorities? How best are they to do their work in adult education? Your Lordships will notice, I hope, that I am not offering answers to these questions; I am only asking that they should be considered. There have already been Reports. There have been the Barlow Report, the Percy Report on Engineering, the Loveday Report on Agriculture, and others; but to my knowledge there has been no general consideration of the new university problems, of what the new university set-up ought to be. I submit that it is now time that there should be such consideration, but not, I think, by a University Commission. I say that, partly because a University Commission would take so long, and partly because university administrative and other staffs are so overladen at the present time that the burden upon them involved by the operation of a full-blown Commission would be intolerable.
On the other hand, there is the proposal to ask the University Grants Committee to make a survey. No one admires the University Grants Committee more than I do. It is a most beautiful piece of administrative machinery, by which the State is enabled to give large financial grants to the universities and yet not disturb their independence. I know of nothing like that Committee. I rejoice to think that in that task of cherishing the independence of the universities, the
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present Government are at one with previous Governments. I am very glad indeed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has enlarged what is called the "remit" of that Committee, and strengthened its personnel. But I have this doubt. This is a Committee whose business it is year by year to consider grants to the universities. Is that the best Committee to look at the whole set-up, with the idea, perhaps, of some revolutionary change?
The freedom of the university is vital, and yet from time to time that freedom has been disturbed, and I think justifiably disturbed, by Commissions. Your Lordships may remember the description of oriental government as "absolutism tempered by occasional assassination." The government of the University of Oxford, and of most universities in this country, is pure syndicalism tempered by occasional Commissions. I think it is good that the State or some authoritative body should from time to time look at it from the outside and consider what ought to be done. All professions tend to think how well they do their job, to wonder why anybody should conceive that it could be done better or differently. Even my own superior profession is not immune from that academic danger. Therefore, I have an uneasy suspicion that if only the University Grants Committee, or even that other great body—which I mention with all respect—the Vice-Chancellors' Committee were asked to report on this matter, you would find how surprisingly satisfactory everything was. If I had to report on my institution I am sure that I should say that, conscious as I was of the defects of other colleges, my own was all right.
Therefore, I should feel happier if this inquiry which I want to consider these long-term problems were in the hands of an independent committee on which the University Grants Committee should be strongly represented, and on which additional members should be appointed. That is what I want to ask the Government to do. In saying what I have said I am not in any way reproaching the Government. I rejoice in what they have done for universities, but I think that there might be a danger of our stereotyping the present set-up and making the development of university education in this country too rigid, unless some body of

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considerable weight wrestles with these problems. The material is all there; there have been all these Reports; but nobody has looked at the problem as a whole. I hope the Government will see that somebody does so. I beg to move for Papers.
3.27 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, I hope it will not be inconvenient to any of your Lordships, and I most certainly hope that it will not be considered discourteous to any of you who are going to speak later in this debate, if I intervene at this stage. The long and short of the matter is that, like university teachers, the Lord Chancellor is very much overworked according to his own standards, arid indeed, I would say, according to the standards of most reasonable people and it so happens that if I were to sit here until the end of the debate I should find myself in some difficulty with regard td other engagements. Therefore, I would ask the forgiveness of your Lordships for intervening at this stage. I intervene with hesitation. I hesitate to rush into a debate on any topic in regard to which the noble Lords, Lord Lindsay of Birker, who moved this Motion, and Lord Cherwell, are in agreement. But, notwithstanding that risk, I must do the best I can; and I do my best somewhat reinforced and reinvigorated by the thought that I have recently and on previous occasions, been able to be in close touch with the University Grants Committee, and I do, I think, know the outlook of this Committee and the way in which they are approaching the problems which the noble Lord indicated in his speech.
In the first place, I agree that it is fundamental that universities should have complete independence and freedom. I am quite sure that we are right to allow them to work out their own destinies, and that the best thing we can do is to give them adequate sums of money, subject, of course to the check and control of such a body as the University Grants Committee. I agree with the noble Lord in thinking that the Committee is a most useful piece of machinery, and it does its work without making itself responsible for the way in which universities develop. It provides them with the sinews of war and leaves them to work out their own destinies. Secondly, in regard to educa-
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tion and the attitude of the University Grants Committee, I am quite certain that in the educational field there is room for development, research, and further experiment.
I believe that directly education becomes stereotyped there is probably something very much the matter with it, and I know that is certainly the view of the University Grants Committee. I did not quite follow the noble Lord in his comparisons about the university populations in this country and other countries. I think they might be misleading, unless, one realizes exactly what is meant by university education But, having said that, I concede at once—I think we must all concede—that our university population is far too small.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: Is there not a comparison between this country and Scotland? I set the difficulty about America.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It may well be so, but, however that may be, I concede at once that our university population is much too small and we must increase it as soon as we can. I believe the Barlow Report recommended that it should be doubled in ten years, and I should think it very likely that in the next ten years we shall have to double it again. I am perfectly certain that this is the best investment we can make. But, as the noble Lord knows, the difficulty at the present time is not money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is prepared to find the money; unfortunately the difficulty is of a very different nature. In 1938–39 we had a university population of something like 50,000. To-day our university population is something like 66,000 and we hope that in the year 1951–52 we shall have reached 88,000. Even that, of course, is not doubling it, though the ten years will not be up.
As the noble Lord said, the limiting factors are twofold, the second being very much more important than the first, because the first is probably a short-term one. The first factor is the difficulty of finding the staff, of Finding teachers of sufficiently high quality to undertake the teaching. The second—and this is the real trouble—is the building problem. It is a problem from which none of us, neither institutions nor the Government nor anyone else, is immune. The position is that

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the University Grants Committee estimate that the programme of development in the next five years will require £50,000,000, of which some £40,000,000 is for new buildings. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has accepted that estimate, and has said that he is prepared to find the money. But the Minister of Works has told us that, even assuming a very high degree of priority being given, he does not think we can undertake more than £20,000,000 of building during the next five years.
That is the trouble, and it means that, even on the assumption of high priorities, only one half of what is admittedly due will be available. Of course, it may be much worse than that if the universities do not get high priorities. But we must realize that whatever the shortage, be it bricks, timber or labour, if we use them for university buildings we cannot use them for housing the people, and we have to make up our minds which is the more important. We all agree that it is enormously important to do what we can for the universities, but we must consider that as one part of the picture and we must not forget the rest. That, unfortunately, is the trouble, but the Minister of Works proposes to review the problem from year to year to see what he can do.
From that aspect of the matter I come to consider the question of policy with regard to expansion. It is not true that, on broad general lines, the University Grants Committee are in favour of developing the existing institutions as opposed to developing new institutions. They are not; but they feel that, having regard to the shortages, first of staff and secondly of buildings, and the extreme difficulty of undertaking new building, it is probably a better policy for the time being, if we are to achieve this rapid increase, to see how far we can get people into the existing establishments. But for the building difficulty the claims of the new universities, apart altogether from the existing universities, would certainly have a very high priority.
It was for that reason that we determined to strengthen the University Grants Committee, and I may tell your Lordships what are the new terms of reference of that Committee. They are:
"To assist, in consultation with the universities and other bodies concerned, the pre-
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paration and execution of such plans for the development of the universities as may from time to time be required in order to ensure that they are fully adequate to national needs."
These are wide terms of reference, and I must say, and I think the noble Lord agrees, the prestige of the University Grants Committee is exceedingly high. In those circumstances, I am bound to say I do not think it would be wise at the present time to appoint another Committee. I think that almost inevitably the wires would cross. Almost inevitably, if one has two Committees and if they both tender the same advice, then the second Committee is unnecessary, but if they give different advice, then we are in a very great difficulty. Therefore, we feel that we had better stick to the University Grants Committee and give them what help we can with enlarged personnel and the apparatus of sub-committees, so they may take that over-all view which is, as I understand it, precisely the view the noble Lord desires them to take.
I turn to the question of university colleges, and I deal particularly with the North Staffordshire project. I am told that the University Grants Committee have passed a resolution which I will read to your Lordships. This is the resolution which they communicated to the sponsors.
"That the Committee would consider sympathetically an application for financial assistance in respect of a new university college in North Staffordshire, provided that the basis of studies in science and art be adequately broadened."
I am sure the noble Lord will agree with that.
"If this scheme is to include the conferment of degrees by the college, the Committee will wish to be satisfied that adequate arrangements have been made for sponsorship by a university or universities."
If I understand it aright—and I am talking on a subject of which I have only a small knowledge—the practice has been that university colleges in this country have instructed, and their students have taken the examinations which are set by, I think, the University of London. Here is a new experiment—that the North Staffordshire people should have the right of setting their own examinations, if they do so in consultation with and by obtaining the benefit of the advice and experience of some of the older existing universities—I think they are here called "Sponsoring universities." Might not that be an experiment which is well worth making?

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I have read your Lordships the resolution of the University Grants Committee. Your Lordships will see from that resolution that they are certainly not avoiding this proposal just because it is something new. I hope that that will give the noble Lord some satisfaction, and will be a justification for his having raised this question. I wish I could give him equal satisfaction with regard to building, but that assurance I cannot give him.
The noble Lord said something (and I know that some noble Lords who are to follow me are going to say the same), about the question of technical colleges. May I, therefore, go on to say something about them? What is called the upgrading of the technical colleges, within the general system of general technical education, was, of course, a matter which was discussed by the Percy Committee on Higher Technological Education. The Committee did not recommend their transformation into university colleges, for those differ from technical colleges not only in rank but in kind, but they did recommend the selection of a strictly limited number of technical colleges in which there should be developed technological courses of a standard comparable with that of university degree courses.
The precise details of that up-grading process was a matter on which the Committee were divided, and they made no conclusive recommendations, but the Chairman, Lord Eustace Percy, in an appendix to the Report, suggested that the Government should adopt the policy of developing certain colleges into major university institutions. I think that there is much to be said for consideration of that proposal but, on the other hand, I am quite certain the question is one of extreme difficulty. One must consider the interests of the full-time and part-time technical work for students preparing for, or actually engaged in, industry. Those interests must be safeguarded. But the question has already received some consideration, and if the recommendations of the Percy Committee for a National Council of Technology are implemented (as there is every reason to think that they may be) it would be one of the functions of that Council to consider whether such a policy of up-grading is feasible, and if so, how it could be best carried out.
My Lords, speaking in ignorance of this topic, may I say this? It seems to me
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that the essence of a university education is the mixing of students engaged in various courses; the scientist with the philosopher, the philosopher with the historian, the historian with the mathematician, and so on. The more of that one can have, the greater the broadening effect on the minds of everybody. On the other hand, I do see with regard to technical colleges that that theory is impossible and impracticable. How far, because of the difficulty, one has to go to the other extreme I am not sure; I am hesitant about it and fortunately, it is not a matter for me to determine! But, obviously, it is a matter which requires very considerable thought by people who have given great study to this question.
I should like to refer to the extra-mural work which Oxford and Cambridge in particular have done. I think that the work which they started (I am not saying that other universities have not followed them because they have; the noble Lord, Lord Simon of Wythenshawe, will recognize that the university with which he is associated has followed them) and that all the universities have done in this respect has been of the highest value. Indeed, it has in some way made up for and supplemented our small university population, and the only criticism. I have of the work is that if it had not been done perhaps the appalling dearth of our university students in this country would have been discovered earlier.
3.45 p.m.
LORD CHERWELL: My Lords, as happens frequently when the noble Lord, Lord Lindsay, allows his reason to conquer his emotions, or his head to rule his heart, we are in agreement on very many points about which he has spoken to-day. If things go on like this, I think the House may become utterly bored at the sight of the lion of Balliol lying down with the Christ Church lamb. There was one thing I was very pleased to hear Lord Lindsay say, and which I was delighted to hear the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, with his even greater influence, echo, and that is the paramount importance of maintaining the independence of the universities. Once Government control interferes with what is to be taught and thought, the rest of the totalitarian system will not be far off.
Whilst there are some men with exceptional types of character and brains who

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can make their way unaided by the advantages of the more advanced forms of education, the great bulk of the people, who in words, acts, thinking, writing, speaking and doing, influence the progress of humanity, are bound to build up on the knowledge which has been garnered, codified and analyzed by preceding generations. Unless they can have an opportunity of studying these things and having them expounded and explained by people themselves working on the frontiers of knowledge, they will be handicapped by having to think out everything afresh on uncertain premises and on inadequate information. The function of a university teacher, as I see it, is to develop in young people the habits of exact and logical thought, to show them how and where the underlying facts can be ascertained on which conclusions are to be based, to indicate how the great minds of the past have tackled problems, to show what conclusions they have reached and how they have justified them, and, above all, perhaps most important of all, to arouse the students' curiosity and interest and stimulate them to the point of making the students desire to spend laborious days and nights in an effort to contribute themselves something towards the advance of knowledge.
If this is to be accepted as the proper function of a university, it is incompatible with central supervision and control of what is thought and taught. If the conclusions are laid down before the problem is stated and studied, only inferior minds can be expected to take any interest in the process by which these conclusions are justified; the best brains are forced into a dreary process of trying to find some new way of proving or justifying some accepted dogma, and habits of mind are formed which are singularly inept to contribute to progress. A lawyer—if I may say so in the presence of the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor—whose preoccupation it is to prove the case his client pays him to prove; a geologist, whose work is directed to proving, say, that evolution takes place according to some pre-established law derived from the dialectical materialists' conception of the universe promulgated a hundred years ago; even a zealot seeking new subtle methods of fortifying some dogma laid down by one of the early fathers, are not likely to develop the wide
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range of knowledge and the uninhibited approach to new problems which alone can lead to novel and original modes of solution.
In some subjects, of course, such as mathematics and the natural sciences, there is a wide and, within limits, quite definite body of knowledge which cannot be controverted, and which must form the foundation for any future developments. This the students have to be taught before they can hope to contribute themselves to progress. It is essential that they should not be taught it as a dogma but that the reason why these matters are believed should be laid before them, and the various alternative theories displayed. At all costs a dogmatic approach must be prevented, unless the student's mind is to be stereotyped and paralyzed. For this reason it is of supreme importance that the mind of the teachers should not be stereotyped in turn by interference from outside sources, telling them what they must think and what they must say. I
would go further. If the teacher confines himself to reading and expounding old knowledge, not only will he fail to capture the interest or awake the enthusiasm of his student, but his own mind will become hidebound and his habits of thought will run in a groove. For this reason it is essential, to my mind, that university teachers should be closely connected with original research. It is vital not to divorce research in the universities from teaching, or teaching from work on the frontiers of knowledge. If we do divorce them, the teachers, and with them their pupils, will sink back into the dull, uninspiring repetition of dogmas which ossify the minds of all concerned.
The universities have now become very dependent on Government financial support, partly on account of the fall in their private income because of inflation, and partly because of the continued need for expansion. It is particularly necessary to safeguard their independence, which, as I have said, I was delighted to hear the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack say he regarded as being of supreme importance. It is, of course, for that reason that the University Grants Committee have been interposed as a buffer between the Treasury and the universities themselves. It is indeed a thankless task that the Com-

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mittee have to do, and I marvel at the success with which they do it. Outstanding, forceful men from any particular university who are with us are, of course, always exposed to the unspoken imputation that they may have unduly favoured their own academic home. Yet it would be quite intolerable if the Committee contained second-rate men. Men no longer connected with a university, if they employ staff of the same calibre as university teachers, may be suspected of advocating, say, salaries in the universities, fixed so as not to compete with the salaries they pay in their own establishments. Men with strong opinions and lively imagination on the University Grants Committee may easily be tempted to press, by financial pressure, their own ideas of the lines on which universities should develop or the kind of research they should do. It is, indeed, as I have said, a most thankless task that the Committee are asked to undertake, for, as always, it is not only important that justice should be done but that justice should seem to be done. I think the tributes that we have heard today to the University Grants Committee show with what success they have managed to achieve their task.
Frankly I do not see any other way in which the matter could be handled unless possibly by something like the system obtaining in local government, by which the universities could he given a block grant from some formula, provided they reached a reasonable standard. It does not seem to me to be impossible to evolve something of this sort—some system by which the money granted for the various universities may be spent without Treasury interference but which would not be renewed in full or expanded unless the university could prove that the previous grant had been well spent. There is a great deal to be said for judging a firm on its balance sheet and not on its prospectus. I think there is a slight danger in the fact that the universities do not have to justify what they have done so much as they have to persuade other people that their plans for the future are good.
Another point that has been alluded to by the noble Lord the Master of Balliol towards the end of his speech, and which I was glad to hear the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor support, is the question as to the validity of the con-
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clusion of the Barlow Report that we need twice as many university-trained men as we are getting at present. This may be true or it may be false—I do not pretend to know—but I would certainly not be prepared to act upon this recommendation without a very much closer study than is indicated in that Report. The Master of Balliol said that the number of men who go to the universities in this country is smaller than in most European countries—I think he said all European countries—and very much smaller than in America; and he suggested that since our standard of brains could not he lower than theirs, there must be something wrong. I think that before he forms that conclusion he must prove that the standard of their universities is not lower than ours. The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, made that point and I think it is an entirely valid one.
I must confess that this figure, 2, tends to frighten me a little. When we say 2.3 in science we usually mean something between 2.2 and 2.4. If we are told that we must multiply the number of students by 2, the ordinary scientist would think that it was by something between 1½ and 2½it would be too great a fluke to think that it was exactly 2. If they had said 2.0 I would have had more confidence. The Barlow Report gives a great many facts and figures about the need for scientists. The noble Lord, Lord Lindsay, added many arguments on the same lines. I think it was one of Wells' characters who said: "This here progress—it keeps on going on." And the Master of Balliol rather regretted that science keeps on going on.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: No. I said there were misguided people who do regret it, and I do not think I am a misguided person.
LORD CHERWELL: I am glad the noble Lord the Master of Balliol takes that view of the matter. I would only point out that the Master of Balliol and his colleagues are responsible for the social and moral progress of the undergraduates; I am responsible for their scientific progress. As I say, the arguments for the doubling of the number of science students may be valid, but the argument put forward in the Barlow Report for doubling the others seems to me to be extremely sketchy. We are simply told

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that unless we double them the universities will get out of balance. That may well be, and it is of course desirable to maintain a proper balance of the arts and sciences in the universities. But it is equally important that there should be some assurance that the number can be doubled without lowering the standard and that there will be jobs for those people if and when they have taken their degrees.
I must confess that I was very little impressed by the argument that some psychiatrist had said that there were five times as many people capable of profiting by a University education as actually enjoyed one. We have seen little evidence of this in Oxford, and I believe the Vice-Chancellors' Committee take much the same view in their Report. I believe that in normal times scarcely anyone who comes from a secondary school to a university, and who has the necessary mental capacity to profit by a university education, has been denied entry because of lack of space or for some similar reason. It may be, of course, that there are a number of brilliant boys in the secondary schools who do not want to come to the university—I do not know about that. The ones who do come up, if they are any good, practically always get accepted. If there is really a great wastage, as the psychiatrist believes, it must be between the primary and the secondary school. Of course, I have no information as to whether there are a number of brilliant children who deserve to go on to secondary schools and for some reason do not do so. I cannot say about that, but I have little doubt that any boy who passes into the secondary school and wants to go to the university can get into the university.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Would the noble Lord say that the same applied to girls?
LORD SIMON OF WYTHENSHAWE: The report the noble Lord refers to came from the University of Manchester. It pointed out there was a large wastage at eleven plus, a large number who passed the School Certificate and did not go on, and a large percentage who passed the Higher School Certificate and did not go on to the university. I think that is where the four-fifths are wasted.
LORD CHERWELL: I cannot speak about Manchester University. I can say
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that in Oxford we have very little evidence that anybody who gets into a secondary school and wants to come to a university cannot get into the university if he is up to the standard.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: I do not want to speak too often, but I could produce the evidence from Oxford that there are such people.
LORD CHERWELL: To the contrary?
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: Yes.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: As this is a very important matter affecting half the population, might I ask whether what the noble Lord is saying applies to women as well as to men?
LORD CHERWELL: I believe there is some room for expansion, and that there have been women turned down in Oxford because of lack of space. That, I believe, is true, but I do not believe it is true of the country as a whole. I believe there is perhaps a tendency for women, for some reason, to wish to go to Oxford and Cambridge rather than to the other universities, where I have no doubt they would also obtain a very good education. The point I am concerned with is whether we can double the numbers without lowering the standard. To lower the standard would be fatal; I think we should sacrifice everything rather than lower our standards. There are, of course, possibilities in the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Lindsay, for teaching between the ages of 18 and 21. That is a very interesting point, and it might well be valuable, especially if the noble Lord desires that people should be able to use the more complicated weapons of war with ease. But I think it would be a great pity if anything of that sort were allowed to interfere with the existing standards of the university.
Of course, there may be brilliant boys who could usefully profit by a university education but who do not wish to do so. They may think they will not get better jobs if they pass through the university, and perhaps they are right. The day is probably past when a former Dean of Christ Church, I believe it was, answered an undergraduate who asked, "What is the use of studying Greek?", with the words, "It is not only the immediate language of the Holy Ghost, but it leads to positions of great dignity and emolu-

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ment." Unfortunately, this can no longer be guaranteed by a university education, and many employers, I believe, say that they would rather take their young men straight from school than when they are three or four years older, with university degrees. That I think is a matter in which we can only hope for a change of heart on the part of the employers, because unless young men can be assured of posts of sufficient dignity and emolument after taking their degrees, there is great danger in bringing them to the universities. It is precisely from that class of men with university degrees who failed to get posts that the Fascist and Nazi parties gained very many of their most influential recruits.
It may he that I shall be accused of emphasizing this point because I am trying to disprove the statement of the Barlow Report that Oxford and Cambridge are unwilling to expand. I am not speaking officially, of course, on behalf of Oxford, but from my knowledge of the university nothing can be further from the truth. If we trace the growth of the university over the last 150 years we note an accelerated expansion—almost a geometrical progression. The university always has arranged, and I trust always will arrange, to take any suitable candidate, people of sufficient mental ability. But what we are reluctant to do is to lay down some hard and fast programme and say we will undertake to double our numbers, or whatever it may be, in so many years. We are strongly opposed, as I have said, to any drop in standards which an undertaking to multiply our numbers more rapidly than we can increase the number of suitable teachers, the laboratory space or even lodgings for the undergraduates, would entail, especially before we have evidence that sufficient candidates of adequate ability will be available.
I agree with the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, about the difficulty of expanding the buildings, but I would like here to pay tribute to the helpfulness and good sense that has been shown in the matter recently by the Ministry of Works. They have now agreed, I understand, to licence a certain amount of building in general terms, leaving the university to distribute it as may be most advantageous in the circumstances as they emerge. This is a great improvement on the old system where
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every little piece of building had to obtain a special licence. It had to be justified and argued about before a single licence could be granted. I hope that this broadminded approach will be applied as generally as possible, because I am sure it is most helpful.
There is one other point to which the noble and learned Viscount referred, which the Master of Balliol mentioned and to which I attach great importance. Whilst I am utterly opposed to any attempt to sub-divide the universities proper into specialized training schools, I think there is some danger, as I have said before, in trying to teach every form of technology in the universities. The university proper which did not teach history or mathematics or the natural sciences would be a monstrosity. It would be like a man deprived of an arm or a leg, or, perhaps better, deprived of one or more of his five senses. It is essential that in a university all the fundamental subjects should be studied and taught if the whole university is to flourish. The noble and learned Viscount said that it was precisely because of the actions and reactions upon one another of the intercourse, arguments and contentions of the undergraduates—and sometimes even of the teachers—in the various schools, that, their minds were whetted and their imaginations stimulated. But I do not think it follows from this that the applications of these various fundamental sciences can be, or ought to be, all taught in one university.
If I may, I will once more illustrate my meaning by the special example of engineering, although my point applies in some degree also to such subjects as agriculture and forestry. One of our greatest needs in this country to-day, when so much depends upon improving the technique of production, is a large number of highly trained engineers. Engineering is an immensely broad and an extremely difficult and complicated profession. It is quite impossible to pick it up as you go along, just as it is impossible to pick up law and medicine as you go along. In every civilized country, so far as I know, except Great Britain, it is taught in great institutions of university rank, such as the universities mentioned by the Master of Balliol, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the California Institute of Technology, the Polytechnica at Zurich and at Delft, and, before the war, the Technical Universities at Berlin and

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Karlsruhe. To teach engineering properly we need at least six or eight professors of engineering—civil, mechanical, steam, electrical, radio engineering and the like, each with a big department, in which teaching and research can be carried out. In addition one needs departments of physics, chemistry, mathematics, economics, geology, mineralogy and all the ancillary subjects.
A first-class engineer requires a knowledge of all these subjects, but they must be taught with an engineering bias. In a university, geology might well be studied from the point of view of the origin and formation of the rocks, the paleontology and fossils and development of species, etcetera. In the technical university the emphasis would lie on the actual distribution and stratification of the rocks, their characteristics and various formations, geophysical modes of investigating them by acoustical or electrical soundings and so on. In a university mathematics, in its purest form, would be studied for its own sake. In a university undergraduates would be taught more about the differential equations and forms of mathematics which can be applied to immediate problems; in a technical university they would be more concerned with the electromagnetic equations and applications, or the use of thermo-dynamics in designing heat engines, and so on.
To turn out first-class engineers requires great institutions of university status, with something like twenty professors and departments, which concentrate on these branches of training and research. If they are to attract the best men they must have a status in no way inferior to the universities—as they have abroad. Their degrees must rank with ordinary university degrees, their teaching appointments must be equated in prestige and salary with those of other universities. In Germany there were about ten such establishments, turning out something like 6,000 highly qualified engineers every year; so that the Germans in the war had a pool of nearly 250,000 highly skilled engineers who could be drawn upon for any technical need which might emerge. This, I think, saved them and enabled them to carry on the war as long as they did. That they made scarcely any new and original fundamental inventions in the war was due largely to the totalitarian inhibition of thought imposed by their
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system. But their technical achievements were outstanding, even though they embodied no new principle. One need only point to the V2—a foolish waste of effort but an incredibly successful technical achievement.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Percy, in his Report emphasized this aspect. It would be one of the most important developments in British universities if one could establish some technical universities of this kind, which might concentrate on engineering, whose prestige was measured by their success in their own field. And we must get rid, once and for all, of the ridiculous idea that a first-class engineer is not quite the equal of a man who has taken a degree in history, law, pure science or medicine in one of the older universities. I wonder whether problems of this sort are being properly and adequately considered. They are of absolutely fundamental importance to the future of this country. They are long-term problems and will not help us over the present crisis; but if we are looking ahead they should not be allowed to go by default. I trust that one of the results of this debate will be to emphasize the importance of considering this problem de novo and without any bias, and to make recommendations.
4.16 p.m.
LORD BEVERIDGE: My Lords, I propose to deal with three points: first the relation of money and licences for building; second the relations of university graduates and the openings for them; and thirdly, the relation between the different subjects undertaken at a university. As regards the first point, as we all know, this Government has undertaken a very laudable programme of expanding the universities. I am sorry to run the risk of coming between these antagonists, who habitually agree, the Master of Balliol and the Professor of Christ Church. I am bound to say, however, that instead of worrying about the numbers of American students, for us in Britain the aim is the Scottish or Swedish standard. Even Balliol is not wholly without Scotsmen! But assuming that we are going to try to expand the universities to something like double their present number—a safe minimum after all—this problem of money and licences for building is a very serious one. I hope that those noble Lords who are listening

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on behalf of the Government will allow me to stress the seriousness of the difficulty.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has provided enough money to the university Grants Committee to enable £40,000,000 worth of building to be done. Acting on this promise the universities have made their plans. They have gone to the licensing authorities and have found that they can have perhaps only 50 per cent., Or sometimes 30 per cent., or even less of what they needed. Some of them came to the conclusion that if planning as interpreted by this Government, means dealing with each problem in isolation from every other aspect, they might have had some excuse. It looks as though the Chancellor had promised the money without considering whether or not the licence would be granted.
I think there is a real danger if the universities are allowed to make their applications for licences only to regional authorities; some of them would come off very badly indeed, especially if they needed more because their universities had been particularly badly damaged. Bristol University is a case in point; they are in a particularly difficult position. But there are others. The moral is that this problem of priorities for licences cannot be dealt with regionally or solely by the Ministry of Health. It should be taken up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has found the money, to see that there is the best use of building priorities from a university point of view; not simply from the point of view of the building industry. That is a point I wish to make. I would like, too, following an interjection made by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, to express the hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer —if he takes the matter up—will also see that fair consideration is given to the claims of women; to the necessary extensions at the universities in respect of them. I am glad to hear the noble Lord Lord Lindsay of Birker, say "Hear, hear." He did not mention women in his speech.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: I ought to have done.
LORD BEVERIDGE: Although he did not mention them I know he thought about them.
My second point relates to the balance between university graduates and the openings in the commercial world for such
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graduates. In any country the number of graduates ought to bear some relationship to the number of openings for them—that is to say to the number of good jobs likely to be open for occupation by people of 21 or 22 years of age. Unless you see that this is so, you may tend to produce large numbers of members of, possibly, the Labour Party—if the Labour Party were to be regarded as a revolutionary Party, although I do not myself so regard it. At any rate you tend to produce discontented and dissatisfied people; and you do something else. If in fact you increase very largely the number of people who enjoy full-time education up to university age, and if, by the scholarship ladder you make it easy for clever boys to go through the universities, then any occupation, any profession, any way of life which does not keep places open for them when they leave the universities is likely to lose a certain amount of the ability of the country.
I believe that one could demonstrate that in this country the scholarship ladder has been one of the forces which have made the standard of ability in our businesses rather lower than it should be. For many years after we began sending up clever boys from schools into universities business men went on saying: "We want them straight from the schools." The consequence was that clever boys, who might have become business magnates, became school teachers, or something of that sort. (I do not wish by saying that to reflect in any way upon school teachers.) If, instead of going into such professions they could have been business enterprisers, then, in some cases, they might have accomplished more important work. In the United States, where many more young people go to the universities than go in this country, there has been much greater readiness on the part of business people of all kinds to take into their undertakings young people after the university stage, and not to insist on having only the product of the schools.
It is also, of course, important that the product of the schools should be qualified to benefit by university education. I have some friends through whose hands have passed a number of products of the secondary schools, and from what they tell me I am not quite certain that that qualification is always achieved. I do not think, however, that that goes to the root of the main question. Clearly there must

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be a large proportion of people in the British race (and in the British race I include the Scots), as in the Swedish race, able to profit by university education. Therefore, it is most important that all who are concerned with giving jobs should remember the desirability of keeping an adequate number of places open for people who have done the full university course. That should be co-relative with the extension of the universities.
The third point I wish to make relates to the balance between the different subjects taught in universities. There was a time when our universities were almost exclusively devoted to teaching the classics and the ancient learning generally. But there has since come a time when the champions of natural science have forced their way in and have seized a very large proportion of the available resources. I suspect that there has, in fact, been an unbalanced development of natural science in our universities as well as in our society generally. That, indeed, is almost the moral of the very depressing though very interesting debate to which we listened in this House recently, on the subject of the atomic bomb. We have had science going forward, making war more and more terrible, without sufficient being done to make the occurrence of war less likely. While I am not going to suggest that a more careful study of the social sciences would be, in itself, a preventive of war, I do suggest that it would be a contribution towards preventing it.
The more the people of any country understand of the problems of peoples of other countries, the more they get to know about them, and the more they learn to look upon human society as a whole, the less likely will war be. The more people, in general, understand political and economic relations and the elementary fact that one man's prosperty is of benefit and not harm to his neighbours, the more shall we progress towards the prevention of war. To spread this understanding by every means in our power would be a great contribution to the stopping of war, which has been made more and more dangerous through the unbalanced development of natural science.
To-day natural science is enthroned and powerful. Economics is so unimportant that even the Lord Chancellor, in detailing a list of people he wanted to meet, did not mention economists and politi-
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cians. He spoke of historians, lawyers, bacteriologists and others, but he did not even mention people of my former profession. However, I hope that he will be quite glad to meet me if he has the chance! It is true, I think, that the fact that social science, economics, politics, sociology, anthropology and so on, have not sufficiently established themselves in public esteem is to some extent their own fault. I do not think it is simply because the economists always tend to disagree. So, after all, do doctors, scientists, and others. We know that they disagree just as violently.
I think one fault has been that in the past economists and political scientists, although they call themselves scientists, have had affiliations with the arts and not with the sciences. It is not my intention to speak at length on that subject, however, though I have lectured upon it before now. It is a mistake to think that the study of economics has nothing to do with science, but to-day it is still far too apt to be treated as part of the arts. I think a clear sign of that is afforded by the fact that people in my walk of life who attain eminence become Fellows of the British Academy, instead of Fellows of the Royal Society. That is fundamentally wrong. One reason why the social sciences have not developed as they should have done is that they have not had enough money to develop. If you are going to try to develop the study of economics and political science, not merely as a form of reasoning or philosophy, but as a science, you need money for a number of purposes.
Statistical laboratories are needed; field work has to be carried out; there must be expansion of all the things needed for research. Natural scientists obtain the money needed for research, but social scientists do not. Therefore a great deal more money is needed for the development of the social sciences. I believe that money used in that way would be well spent, from the point of view of that expenditure making war less likely. The use of more money in this way would mean the holding of an inquiry into the balance of subjects taught at the universities. When I heard the noble Lord who opened the debate outlining the committee which he would like to appoint, it struck me that here would be a splendid thing for his committee to inquire into. Let them examine the balance of subjects

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taught at the universities. Some kind of a special committee appointed for that purpose would be a very good thing.
The Lord Chancellor thought that the University Grants Committee should concern themselves with this, but here a difficulty arises. That Committee give away money—that is their business. If they were to hold an inquiry as to what the universities teach, and what they ought to teach, they could hardly do that without appearing to interfere with the independence of the universities. Somehow, I want an independent inquiry into the balance of the subjects taught. I hope that somebody will make it. Those are the three really important points. They are all points of balance. There is the balance between money and licences for building, which is a problem for the Government to work out. There is the balance between the number of university graduates and the jobs for them. That is partly a question for the Government, for they are already a large employer and, I gather, they contemplate being, if possible, even larger employers. But it is not only a question for the Government, it is a question for the whole of society. Then there is this question of balance between the different subjects in the university and that, I believe, could be undertaken by the University Grants Committee, perhaps with a specially appointed committee of inquiry for the purpose.
4.30 p.m.
LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, we have had four speeches from scintillating stars in the cultural and legal firmament—
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: No, I should not say that.
LORD CALVERLEY: I give you that; so I shall have to ask your Lordships' indulgence while I follow the precedent of the noble Lord, Lord Lindsay, and indulge in a little special pleading. The precedent was established when Lord Lindsay pointed out that Stoke ought to have at least a university college. I am putting the case of Yorkshire this afternoon. Yorkshire has a population equal to that of Scotland. I am glad, and I am certain that Scotsmen are proud, that Scotland has four universities. Yorkshire has but two, but I am glad to say there has been the recent addition of the
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University College of Kingston-upon-Huff If I might just give a historical background, I would like to point out that in the late 'seventies and early 'eighties there was a resurgence of further adult education. We had the Mason College at Birmingham, the great Owens College at Manchester, and the Yorkshire College at Leeds. At the same time there was the unique experiment of the Bradford Technical College in the early 'eighties. I remember that because I was present at the opening. My mother carried me, but she did this not so much for me to, see the college as to see the Prince of Wales, afterwards King Edward VII. If you will allow this little personal reminiscence, I car see his jolly face even to-day as he looked with pleasure upon our bonny lasses. He had always an eye for beauty.
A NOBLE LORD: Did he look at you, too?
LORD CALVERLEY: Well, I was being nursed. And so this technical college was opened in the early 'eighties, through the munificence of the Cloth Workers' Company and local liberality. That college has spread, and this morning there were 600 full-time students; this evening there will be 3,200 part-time students attending that college, not simply for research into wool and rayon, but to study engineering, botany and science and, to a lesser degree, the arts. Of the full-time men and women students, 350 are determined to take degrees, and they have, as a result, to enter for the external degrees of the London University. The college is an institution that serves not merely my own city, but also a larger population of 800,000. The importance of this great college has been recognized by the independent members of the Wool Working Party in their Report, because they said it was essential that Bradford College should be created a university college.
This afternoon we have had at least three speeches based upon the major universities. I do not mind that, because these major universities are based upon tradition. But I would remind your Lordships that we have a tradition, even in that hard-bitten part of Yorkshire, the West Riding. We were privileged to be represented in parliament for twenty-five years by Mr. W. E. Forster. While he was our Member he laid the foundation of public elementary education in this

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country. We also had such men as Samuel Cunliffe-Lister, Weetman-Pearson (though he thought imperially and the world was his diocese), Angus Holding and his father, Isaac Holding. Three of these men had the privilege of sitting in this House. I particularly emphasize Samuel Cunliffe-Lister because he created, by scientific research, such beautiful things as silk and velvet. At the same time, he felt he was under a duty of gratitude to the person who had inspired some of the machinery by which he was able to do this. That is why I want you to be as tolerant as you can while I am making these remarks.
We also had in another place a man whose name was Titus Salt. He was the first great employer of labour in this country to realize that the workpeople should live in decent conditions, and he established that little township called after him and known as Saltaire.
Although Bradford celebrated this year its centenary as a corporation, we had a great tradition in the past; and that is why Bradford to-day is the world's centre of the wool and its ancilliary trades. We were inspired to emphasize higher education when that word was not popular. We have five grammar schools in Bradford to-day, and we have high schools. When, in the rest of the country, there were 9 per 1,000 attending higher education schools, there were over 25 per 1,000 in my own native town. When the cut came in 1931, that figure sank, but to-day children living within my city know that double the number, compared with the rest of the country—10 per 1,000 compared with 5 per 1,000—can have the pleasure of a higher education. This is no mean record.
I want to pay my tribute by saying that we owe much to what was called the extra-mural teaching of Cambridge and Oxford. We owe much to what in those days—over fifty years ago— we used to call the University Extension Lectures. I believe their descendant to-day is the Workers' Educational Association movement. Those men, chiefly from Oxford, used to come to us. They spoke beautifully. We loved the soft cadences of their south country accent. So much so that I remember an incident connected with one hard-bitten Bradford manufacturer, whose dialect was of the broadest, and
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whose son was going to talk equally broadly.
The son had his certificate from the grammar school. A university extension lecturer, speaking beautifully, came to the district. With Yorkshire hospitality the man said to the lecturer: "Don't go to an hotel; come to my house. I will put you up." The professor saw the boy—a grand upstanding lad. The boy's father said to the professor: "But listen to him talking, Professor." The professor said, "Let him come with me. I will teach him to talk as I can; but he must not come home for the vacation. He must spend the whole year in Oxford." The father allowed his boy to go. The university professor said to the father: "You come down at the end of the university year and take your boy home, and also see the university." At the end of the year, the father came. He said to the professor: "Now then, professor lad, can that lad of mine talk as tha' can talk?" The professor said: "Bagoom; he can an' all." I wish to pay my own tribute to the University Extension Lectures Movement. I owe a great deal to it, because of the further education which I received. With regard to our high schools I can remember—as a very young child—going to the opening of one by the late Viscount Cross. I remember James Bryce opening another. Both men were distinguished members of your Lordships' House. James Bryce afterwards served this country with distinction as one of the finest ambassadors we ever sent to Washington.
In short, we wish to extend our high scientific standards in engineering, wool, and in other spheres. We ask that our men and women in Yorkshire shall be able to profit by their present opportunities; if we can receive university extension status they will be able to do so. In 1904 our buildings needed considerable extension. The City Council came forward to provide a lot of the money. Yet it is said, because the City Council are interested in this college, it should not receive university status. I consider it is to the credit of a City Council who provide for higher education and see that it does not languish. It is a credit to the Council in which I served my apprenticeship that we were able to have such a high proportion of boys and girls who were able to profit from what is called secondary

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education. That is no reason why we should be penalized.
But we wish to extend. We would like to have a Chair of Music in the West Riding. I should like to remind your Lordships that it was Manchester and Bradford business. men, in combination, who gave us the Hallé Orchestra. On Saturday I passed a warehouse with a very honoured name, because the son of the founder of that business was Frederick Delius, who made such a great contribution to music. We do not wish to stick simply to our wool or our engineering. We want an extension into cultural education and arts. Above all—and I am sorry that nobody representing the Ministry of Health is here—we could within six or eight months have a teaching hospital in Bradford. We have two great hospitals with 2,404 beds. We have every department, from the cradle to the grave, where students are taught or could be taught. I am assured by a distinguished Scottish physician that we have an efficient staff. For twenty years there has been research in radium and cancer. These great hospitals are recognized as the regional centres in Yorkshire for research into radium; in fact, we were the pioneers in pre-natal clinical work. We were, too, the pioneers in maternity work, and this had to be done by the Corporation sometimes in defiance of the powers-that-be in Whitehall. I am putting in a special plea, which is perhaps wrong of me. We do not despise technology in the West Riding.
When I made a pilgrimage to some of the great schools of this country, in almost every one—I remember Eton in particular—I saw well set up lads in overalls with dirty hands working away. Their sole incentive was to serve their country during the war, and the profits which they undoubtedly made went to extend a youth club somewhere in the East End of London for lads who were not so well off as themselves. I want us to think impartially on this question. I want us to realize that we must not be hidebound, either by a university of lost causes or any other sort of university, but must think as the Italians thought when their great universities were founded centuries ago. I believe that we can do it—especially in my own county of Yorkshire. We can make a great contribution, shall I say, by a conservatory of culture,
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science, the arts and technology; we can help the nation, because we have got buildings which could be used to much greater efficiency than they are to-day. So I am asking your Lordships' support for my city of Bradford. I do not want you to forget it—I want it to go down in Hansard—because I can say humbly, like Paul of Tarsus, that I believe "I am a citizen of no mean city."
4.49 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, my noble friend who has just sat down has directed the course of the debate from the very general field with which the mover of the Motion started into a more particular field. As a Yorkshireman, born in the City of Bradford, I cannot refrain from taking this opportunity of congratulating my noble friend on the eloquence of his historic record of the city's achievements. Indeed, I congratulate him on the general eloquence of his appeal for the particular point which his initiative has inspired me to follow and support; more particularly, because the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, in his reply to my noble friend the mover of the Motion, devoted a large part of his remarks to this particular field—that of the technological institutions of this country. But may I also ask the indulgence of the House for trespassing on its time for one moment to recall that it is now nineteen years ago since my noble friend who has just sat down and myself appealed for the suffrage in our mutual city of Bradford? On that particular occasion it was my good fortune to receive the honour of support. I would add that my most happy recollections of the campaign are the very cordial manner in which it was conducted, and the particular contribution of my noble friend.
We must all be extremely grateful to the mover of this Motion. I would like to quote one phrase which he used, because it gives the lead to the appeal which I wish to make. In his emphasis on the need for expansion of university education he said, "or institutions of university status." This particular matter of technical education, which the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, dignified in the manner to which I have just referred, was taken up with great energy in the discussion on the Committee stage of the Education Act in June, 1944. For the purposes of record

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—because I wish to support the point made by the noble Lord who has just sat down—may I remind the House that our very energetic pleadings with the Government spokesman (then speaking for Mr. Butler, who was Minister of Education) that there should be in the Bill a definite undertaking to include technical education (also covering technical training) were resisted on the grounds that education necessarily included technical training, and, therefore, there was no necessity to include that wording in the Bill. It was eventually decided that it should be mandatory upon the Minister to see that provision was made for all those for whom this amendment in the Act was being urged.
It is because of the position of this institution to which I particularly make reference—the Bradford Technical College—that I had to come from the general to the particular, and I had to make that necessary preamble. Perhaps the noble Lord who moved this Motion to-day will forgive me if I suggest that he forgot to mention the Bradford Technical College in his catalogue of those institutions which were aspiring to university status. I would remind the noble Lord that the wool textile industry is one of our largest exporting industries, and, therefore, the locality of Bradford appears to justify particular consideration. The fact is that in spite of repeated references to this matter in the Barlow Report, and in the Percy Report, no success has yet come in regard to the point for which the noble Lord, Lord Calverley, appealed, although the Lord President of the Council has accepted, in general, the recommendations of the Barlow Report for the establishment of university rank for institutes of technology. It is appropriate that one should refer to the remarks of the noble and learned, Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, who said that the University Grants Committee—which Committee received an exceptional eulogy from the mover of the Motion—should have authority to make their own allocations.
The noble and learned Viscount emphasized that there was no difficulty in finance, and the Chancellor was prepared to find all the money required. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack further said that the terms of reference of the University Grants Committee were
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very wide, so that their actions could include such as had been appealed for in this particular case. The noble and learned Viscount emphasized that there might be a danger in this matter: that it status were granted to these technological institutions the particular value of the institutions in serving technical students might be impaired. I am sure the noble Lord who has just sat down, were he still in the Chamber, would agree with me that there would be no danger under this heading in this particular case. I therefore hope the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack—who in due course will doubtless report this debate to his colleague, the Minister of Education—will remember that point. I hope, too, that he will not overlook the fact that two Yorkshire speakers have urged, under the general umbrella of this most happy debate—fortunately not marred by any partisan feeling—that this should be given particular consideration.
The eulogistic catalogue given by the previous speaker, my co-Yorkshireman, of the achievements of private enterprise in Yorkshire is no doubt cheering to noble Lords on this side of the House; and I hope his emphasis on the value of it to industrial achievement in this particular field will be noted widely by noble Lords on the Government Benches. I refer in conclusion to the work of the Wool Working Party, and the booklet published by the present Government. I must admit that I do not know why it should have been printed in this colour, but I suppose these recommendations will appeal particularly to the supporters of the Government. I emphasize that the recommendations were that the Bradford Technical College should have a status in keeping with Bradford's location as a large centre of industry and that it should be better equipped.
I hope the noble and learned Viscount, in reporting to the Minister, will be good enough to ask what is preventing action being taken, because nothing that the mover of the Motion said would in any way conflict with what I am advocating. I am sure his wisdom in these matters will be respected by the Government, and that he can leave this Chamber with the satisfaction that he has done a great service. In this particular matter the Government have omitted the City of Bradford. Why

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cannot this city be included? I appeal to my noble friend the mover of this Motion to emphasize—in spite of the fact that he omitted to mention Bradford, the most important of all technological institutions (of which I am sure he will pardon my reminding him)—that Bradford is worthy of immediate action in this matter.
5.0 p.m.
LORD SIMON OF WYTHENSHAWE: My Lords, as a Lancashire man I have listened with great interest to these two Yorkshire diversions of the last few minutes, and perhaps, with your Lordships' permission, I may come back to the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lindsay. I am particularly grateful to him for raising this matter, because I do not think it is fully realized what a revolution is now taking place in relation to the universities and the Government. It is very important, therefore, that these matters should be brought before the attention of your Lordships' House. Up to three years ago, the Government had confined their relation with the universities to issuing a charter for new universities and giving them a grant, rising from £1,000,000 to £2,000,000. That was administered in the kindliest way by the University Grants Committee, who gave advice and suggestions, were very careful indeed not to interfere with anything, and did a remarkably good job.
Since 1944 there have been at least seven Departmental Committees appointed by four different Ministries on different aspects of university work. Those seven Reports all make definite and constructive suggestions as to the expansion of university work, the new kinds of work to be done by universities, or how certain kinds of things should be done. A remarkable sense of initiative was shown by Committees which were composed almost entirely of university men appointed by different Government Departments. It has brought the relations of the Government and the universities closer than they were before. By far the most important Report is, of course, the Barlow Report, because that Committee made the revolutionary suggestion that universities should double their numbers, both in the arts and the sciences, within ten years. That has been accepted, I think, by the universities, by the Government and by the public. It is true, as has been pointed out several times, that we have in England
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the smallest university population, in relation to the total population, of any industrial and civilized country. It is also true that if we implement the Barlow Report we shall increase our numbers faster than any country has ever increased its number, even America. I have studied American figures, and never in one decade have they doubled the number of students. Therefore the task which has been put upon our universities is a very heavy one indeed.
It is also true, as the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, said, that Oxford and Cambridge may not have objected to expansion, but in fact they are going to expand very slowly and on a moderate scale. The other big universities, London, Edinburgh and Glasgow, are expanding only moderately and, therefore, the regional universities will have to expand at a quite unparalleled pace; the burden is going to fall on the regional universities and colleges. As is well known, in order to meet these burdens Sir John Anderson set an example by increasing the grant from £2,500,000 to £5,500,000, and we are all deeply indebted to him for doing so. That, I think, is a good illustration of the fact that this is in no way a Party matter. Mr. Dalton followed Sir John Anderson's example and increased it from £5,500,000 to £9,000,000, and this year he has given a quinquennial grant rising to no less than £16,000,000 in five years' time. The universities have an income of about £4,000,000 apart from the Government grant; but they will be getting over 75 per cent. of their income and their capital expenditure from the Government. That is far more than the Government 'pay for schools. The Government are going to be in a position, if they so wish, not only to control but to dictate to the universities.
The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, pointed out that the Chancellor has given to the University Grants Committee new terms of reference (which he read out) to ensure that the universities fully meet the needs of the country. It is very interesting that the Vice-Chancellors have accepted that on behalf of the universities. If I might quote what they said in a very important document recently issued by them, it is as follows:
"The universities entirely accept the view that the Government has not only the right, but the duty to satisfy itself … that the

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resources which are placed at the disposal of the universities are being used with full regard both to efficiency and to economy."
That is an exceedingly important statement on behalf of the universities. The Vice-Chancellors are now practically accepted as a representative body of the Universities, and are accepting the Government's right to see that we do our job with full efficiency and economy.
As I say, the task which has been laid upon us is a very heavy one, and I might perhaps illustrate it from my own University of Manchester, where I have been a member of the Council for thirty years. We have already actually expanded, and we have to-day 60 per cent. more students than we had before the war, as against the national average of 30 per cent., and our plan is to double—and rather more than double—that number. The noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, cast grave doubts on the Leybourne-White Report—which was accepted by the Barlow Committee—which indicated that there were probably five times as many people wishing to go to the universities who were as able as the upper half of those now going to the universities. I should like to answer the noble Lord who, I am quite certain, has not read the Report. It has been widely discussed by our leading psychologists and is supported by evidence from the Ministry of Education. It is also supported by our own experience, because the quality of this sudden increase of 60 per cent. is as high as or higher than, any quality we have ever had before. That applies not only to ex-Servicemen, but also to those coming straight from school.
The record of our distinguished School of Physics, which has already produced such men as Schuster, Rutherford and others, is more remarkable still. It has accepted four times as many students as it used to take before the war. It has nearly doubled the number of research workers, and they are absolutely convinced that there is no lowering whatever in the standards. It may be that these students no longer wish to go to Oxford and prefer Manchester University, and it may be that they are learning wisdom. That is being done, and it is a very heavy burden on the teachers, who are working under what might be called slum conditions. They are sacrificing themselves and doing a job, but they cannot go on
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under those conditions. I was glad to hear the noble and learned Viscount say that the matter would be reconsidered.
I wish to point out, however, that matters are very much worse than he has been informed. In Manchester we were intending to spend £800,000 a year over five years on new buildings, and we were informed that the money would be available. We were then allocated by the Ministry of Works £120,000 a year, or about one-sixth. We are now desperately applying for licences, and we are likely to be able to finish about £60,000 this year and about £60,000 next year. That is not the one-sixth which we were allocated, and certainly not one-half as the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, suggested. We were allocated one-sixth and we are actually getting one twelfth. Now that really makes the whole expansion scheme difficult if not impossible. I have seen in the last day or two letters from Vice-Chancellors of various universities, men of weight and discretion, who wrote to say what difficulties they had experienced in the way of this expansion. They all said that the one acute and immediate difficulty is this question of buildings; and the words used in connexion with the matter by four of these discreet and experienced men are "devastating," "disastrous," "desperate" and "calamitous." I am very glad to hear that the Ministry of Works is to reconsider the matter, and I hope the Government will see that the reconsideration takes place fairly quickly; otherwise it is impossible to conceive what is likely to happen next year. We have one very big entry now, and we are expecting in all provincial universities big entries next year and the year after. We might manage this year's, but it may not be possible to manage the next two years' entries, unless we can get more temporary buildings and a certain number of permanent buildings.
It is not only in that direction that immediate help is required from the Government; as noble Lords have pointed out, there are other matters in which help will be urgently required, and particularly in making sure that jobs will be available for graduates. There will be no difficulty for the medicals, or scientists, but there is no doubt there will be great difficulties in the arts and humanities if their numbers are to be doubled. I believe that business and the civil service and local

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authorities must learn to employ arts graduates as they are employed, very successfully, by the best businesses and the higher branches of the civil service. I believe far more ought to be absorbed. But a great campaign will be necessary to make business and the Government appreciate this. It depends on the Appointments Boards of the universities, which involves the Higher Appointments Board of the Ministry of Labour. It also involves action and help by the University Grants Committee as part of their positive terms of reference as laid upon them by the Chancellor.
The Government, by their many committees and by their generous help, have given the universities the stimulus of a wider field of activity. They have given them the necessary finances, and opportunities of service far more effective than they have rendered in the past. I have seen many universities in the last few months, and they are all making very vigorous and self-sacrificing efforts to take advantage of these opportunities. Possibly this new partnership will help the universities greatly to extend their services to the community.
5.14 p.m.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: My Lords, before asking leave to withdraw my Motion, I want to say how grateful I am for the reply of the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor. There is, however, one point which I should like to mention. The Lord Chancellor announced that the Government have said that the committee who are surveying the whole university problem should be a committee of the University Grants Committee. I think he agreed that other
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representatives might be put on that committee. I have no fundamental quarrel with that, but there is one reason why it might be better, in my view, to have a separate committee, and that is connected with a point that the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, and other noble Lords raised, about the status of the technical colleges and their prospective enlargement into technological institutes. These technical colleges are not under university bodies now but under the Ministry of Education, and I think there is a certain temptation on the part of the body representing universities, properly so-called, not to do justice to the problem of the technical institutes. I do not think it comes to very much, and it will depend on the reference given to the committee; but I think it is worth considering, and, therefore, though I very much welcome the assurance of the noble and learned Viscount that the Government intend to ask the University Grants Committee to appoint a sub-committee, I still say that I would rather have the other, for the reasons I have mentioned. That is the only point I wish to make, except to thank your Lordships for this very interesting debate, and to beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

STEVENSON MARRIAGE. [PETITION FOR BILL.]
Report from the Personal Bills Committee on the Petition for the Bill, made.
House adjourned at sixteen minutes past five o'clock.