Sitting of 12 March 1947

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WEST INDIES

    Industrial Development, Trinidad
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will take steps to establish a public company in Trinidad to develop the manufacturing industries there.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): The Government of Trinidad attaches importance to the development of manufacturing industries, and a standing committee sits regularly to hear and report to the Government on applications for assistance. The Government have not so far thought it necessary to take action on the lines suggested by my hon. and learned Friend, though such a proposal is not excluded from consideration. I am informed, however, that a public company has been formed by local business men, to be known as the Caribbean Development Company Limited, which proposes to erect factories for the manufacture among other things of paper, glass, plywood, beer, nails and caustic soda.
    Mr. Hughes: Can the Minister tell us if any report will be made to this House with regard to the inauguration of these industries?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Certainly, Sir, I am awaiting the report now, and it will include a section on industry in Trinidad.
    Mr. Hughes: Will it be published as a White Paper?
    Mr. Creech Jones: It will be made available to the House.

    Trinidad (Trade Unionist's Visit)
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will consider arranging for a Parliamentary delegation, with members who have trade union experience, to visit Trinidad.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I appreciate my hon. Friend's suggestion, but after careful consideration I have reached the conclusion that at this juncture the interests of the workers in Trinidad will best be served by a visit from an experienced trades unionist for informal local conversations. After consultation with the Trades Union Congress, I have arranged for Mr. F. W. Dalley, lately assistant secretary of the Railway Clerks Association, to visit the colony for this purpose.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Is this not another opportunity for holidays with pay?
    Mr. Wilkes: Is the Minister aware that what is needed in Trinidad is not so much a new delegation or a new commission with new recommendations, but that the very adequate and practical recommendations of the 1937 Commission should be implemented?
    Mr. Creech Jones: A great deal of water has passed under the bridges since 1937 and social and economic conditions are different, but I think that if my hon. Friend will refer back to a reply I gave a week ago he will find that many of his wishes are met.

    Trade Union Accounts (Audit)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that in British Guiana the Government auditors audit trade union acounts free of charge; and whether he will recommend the adoption of the same system by the Government of Trinidad.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir, that is the practice in British Guiana. As to Trinidad, the books of trade
    unions are audited by auditors appointed by the Registrar of Trade Unions, and the Government have refunded to the unions half of the prescribed fees. Provision has, however, been made in the 1947 Estimates to meet the full cost of audits, instead of half. The Governor informs me that the Registrar of Trade Unions is satisfied that the present

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    audit arrangements work satisfactorily, but that the question of entrusting the work to the Government Auditor will be examined.

    Development and Welfare Report
    Mr. Dumpletonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he expects the next Report of the Comptroller for Development and Welfare in the West Indies to be published.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I expect to receive the third biennial report of the Comptroller for Development and Welfare in the West Indies at the end of this month. Allowing for printing, I hope the Report will be available to the public about the end of May.
    Mr. Dumpleton: Is it not two years since the last Report was received?
    Mr. Creech Jones: This is a two-yearly Report.

  PALESTINE

    Exports Boycott
    Brigadier Mackesonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what embargoes have been placed on goods exported from Palestine and which countries have placed such embargoes; and what effect they have had on the economy of Palestine.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the Lebanon and Trans-Jordan have prohibited or restricted the importation of Palestinian goods of Jewish origin. Egypt also does not permit the entry of such goods in transit. Although there has been a considerable reduction in exports to the countries concerned since the imposition of the boycott, the adverse effect has to some extent been offset by the opening of new markets for Palestinian goods. Nevertheless, I am glad to have this opportunity of condemning this form of economic discrimination which is quite contrary to the accepted principles governing international trade and can bring only harm to those who employ it.

    Jewish Terrorism
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Jewish terrorists have been brought to trial in Palestine in 1946 and 1947; how many
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    have been convicted; and what action has been taken on the sentences of those convicted.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am not yet in a position to give the hon. Member a full answer. I will inform him of the details as soon as they are received from Palestine. During 1946, however, 83 Jews were convicted by military courts, nearly all on charges of carrying or discharging firearms.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Can the Secretary of State give any indication how far these sentences have been in any way reduced and in what proportion?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I think in some cases the sentences of death have been reduced to sentences of life imprisonment.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: May I ask the Secretary of State whether, in view of the similar figures for the Arabs for the period 1936–38, he is quite satisfied with the proportion?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Again I must point out that the administration of justice in Palestine is not my affair.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many British soldiers and policemen in Palestine have been killed as a result of terrorists, that the world over the sentence for murder is death, and will he see that that is carried out in every case?
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is yet in a position to state the names of the members of the Jewish Agency referred to in code in telegram No. 2, page 4 of Cmd. 6873, relating to acts of violence in Palestine.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply of 4th December last, to which I have nothing to add.
    Mr. Stokes: But as that answer was entirely unsatisfactory, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the fact that four of the names have already been revealed, including prominent members of the Jewish Agency, among them Dr. Weitzman, he will now take steps to close the Jewish Agency, as that needs to be done?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I regret that my reply must continue to be unsatisfactory.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: In the event of my right hon. Friend having evidence to connect any of these gentlemen with any act of violence, will he undertake to make a proper charge, in a proper court, so that the evidence may he examined and, if possible, rebutted?
    Mr. Stokes: Is it not perfectly clear, from the White Paper referred to in the Question, that all these gentlemen were directly implicated in the outrages which have been perpetrated?
    Mr. Silverman: May I join with my hon Friend in pressing the Minister to give us a specific answer to that question? Is it not perfectly clear that there is no ground whatever for any such accusation? If there were any ground for that accusation, is it not consistent with our traditions that a charge should be made specifically, in a proper place, and that the accused persons should be enabled to reply?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That is another question, and I would like to see it on the Order Paper before I answer it.

    Press Correspondents (Facilities)
    Mr. Michael Astorasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if correspondents and newsreel photographers of foreign countries, particularly the U.S.A., are being given every facility to report on the actions of Jewish terrorists in Palestine.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir. All possible facilities are given to correspondents and newsreel photographers of foreign countries for reporting on actions of Jewish terrorists in Palestine. They are allowed the greatest possible freedom of movement.
    Mr. Driberg: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that some of the American representatives in Palestine are, unfortunately, rather more sympathetic with the terrorists than with the troops, who are doing a very difficult job, on behalf of Anglo-American oil interests and so on, without very much help from America?

  COLONIAL EMPIRE

    United Kingdom Imports
    Brigadier Mackesonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what percentage of imports to the Colonies during 1946 came from the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I regret that statistics of imports- into the Colonial Empire for 1946 are not likely to be available for some months.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the Minister satisfied that full use is being made of such Colonies as Hong Kong, which can help us out during the difficult times with which we are now faced?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That is a different question.

    Secretary of State (Despatches)
    Mr. Wilkesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are taken to ensure that his despatches to Colonial Governments are brought to the attention of officers serving those Governments; and whether he will require that individual officers working in the field should have copies circulated to them and sign them to indicate that they have been read.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Colonial Governments are responsible for seeing that the substance of despatches from the Secretary of State, whether published or not, is brought to the attention of any of their officers who may be concerned. I have no doubt that this responsibility is realised and properly discharged, and I should not be prepared to lay down any requirement going beyond the Colonial Regulations, which empower a Governor to publish any despatches which are not secret or confidential unless in a particular case he has been otherwise instructed
    Mr. Wilkes: Is the Minister aware that one of the most frequent complaints of political officers working in the field in various Colonies, especially in Africa, is that they have no general picture of the overall policy for the Colony since the secretariat is the last resting place of Colonial documents?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I very much appreciate the point. I admit that it is a gap and it is a service which we are setting out now to give to the colonial officers.

    Development Schemes (Control)
    Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent Colonial Governments are obliged to submit to his Department detailed estimates of expenditure from the development

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    fund before the money is spent; and whether he has considered relinquishing this control.
    Mr. Creech Jones: By the terms of the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts, 1940 and 1945, grants can only be made in respect of schemes made by myself with the agreement of the Treasury and these schemes are required to be supported by detailed estimates to justify the assistance sought. This procedure, of course, serves the interests of the United Kingdom who provides the money and also of the Colonies for whose welfare and development the money is provided. While I am open to consider any difficulties experienced by the present procedure, I am advised that experience confirms that no fundamental alteration in the present system of control is called for.
    Mr. Erroll: Will the Minister please give the matter his consideration again, because considerable revision is called for, which means extra work is given to responsible officials on the spot?
    Mr. Creech Jones: My advisers take a different view, but I am looking into the matter.
    Mr. Erroll: Can the right hon. Gentleman ensure the elimination of the progress account which causes more trouble than the estimates?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That will he looked into.
    Dr. Segal: Will the Minister see that none of these development schemes end up as blueprints in pigeon holes?
    Mr. Dumpleton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the West African Colonies particularly there is a considerable sense of frustration and, indeed, charges of delay because of the meticulous controls maintained over the accounts?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The British taxpayer is involved and we are entitled to make certain safeguards regarding the expenditure of the money.

    Development Plans
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether he will give details of the amounts allocated, in the 10 year development plans already approved, to
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    development and to welfare and of the main groups of items classed under each heading;
    (2) which of the 10 year development plans submitted by Colonial Governments have now been finally approved.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Subject, in most cases, to certain reservations, I have already approved the 10 year development programmes of the following territories: Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Tanganyika, Zanzibar, Seychelles, Mauritius, St. Helena and Cyprus.
    If the improvement of education, medical and health, housing and ancillary services and miscellaneous social welfare schemes, are included under the heading of welfare, and other schemes are classified as development, though this classification is far from sound, the amount devoted in the above programmes to development is £58½ million, and, to welfare, £19½million. Since the details are rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Skinnard: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that, in general, the proportion devoted to development, as compared with welfare, is adequate in view of the necessity for Colonies to provide their own revenue as soon as possible, in order to solve their own social problems?
    Mr. Creech Jones: This is a very difficult problem. In our development plans it is most important that the economic basis should be laid, so that the social services can be sustained later.
    Mr. Dumpleton: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that owing to staff and material difficulties the description of this plan as a "10 year plan" is unrealistic? It will probably take 20 to 30 years to put into effect.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The Act provides for a 10 year plan, and it is only on a 10 year basis that we can go ahead.
    Dr. Segal: Can my right hon. Friend say what is holding up approval of development plans for Gambia and the Gold Coast?
    Mr. Creech Jones: There is no hold up. These plans are dealt with quickly as soon as they come to hand.
    The details are as follow:

    Colony

    Development

    Welfare

    £'000

    £'000

    Nigeria

    …

    26,858

    26,469

    Kenya

    …

    12,097

    3,489

    Zanzibar

    …

    310

    1,150

    Sierra Leone

    …

    2,406

    2,850

    Tanganyika

    …

    10,348

    7,535

    Cyprus

    …

    3,153

    2,799

    St. Helena

    …

    87

    113

    Seychelles

    …

    83

    291

    Mauritirus

    …

    3,060

    4,638

    Total

    …

    £58,402,000

    £49,334,000

    Emigration
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give the total number of men and women who have made application since the end of the war to emigrate to all parts of the Colonial Empire.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I would invite reference to the reply given by the Lord Privy Seal to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge) on 3rd March regarding applications for emigration facilities. No official statistics of the number of persons who wish to emigrate to Colonial territories are available. A limited scheme for Government-assisted settlement in Kenya is in operation. One thousand nine hundred and forty-seven inquiries have been made in this country regarding this scheme, and they resulted in 228 applications suitable for consideration by the selection boards. Of these, 139 have, so far, been approved.
    Mr. Cooper: I found it difficult to hear the latter part of my right hon. Friend's reply, but if I give him longer notice of this Question would he then be able to obtain this information? Will he not agree that, in view of the serious manpower problem in this country, and the fact that many well trained technicians wish to go overseas, the position needs to be watched carefully?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir, but there are few opportunities inside the Colonial Empire for immigration. So far, there are only two schemes, one of which has not yet been approved, the other being the one to which I have referred.
    Mr. Astor: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the number of applica-
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    tions is increasing, whether it is higher than prewar? This is information which the House ought to have.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The number of applications from men wishing to go to East Africa is considerable.

  MALAYA

    Constitutional Negotiations
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he expects to make a statement about the progress of constitutional negotiations in Malaya.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I would refer to my reply on 22nd January to my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. Rees-Williams). The Consultative Committee, which the Governor appointed to hear the views of interested bodies and individuals, has made good progress, but the remainder of its task and the subsequent necessary discussions in Malaya, will inevitably take a few more weeks, and I cannot forecast with any certainty the date of their completion.

    Unrest, Kedah
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the outbreak of unrest and lawlessness in the province of Kedah; and to what extent this outbreak is to be attributed to the low scale of rations, particularly rice, prevailing in Malaya.
    Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the disorders in Kedah, Malaya.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The labour situation in South Kedah has been unsettled for several weeks, but the Governor tells me that it is improving. The wearing of uniforms and the drilling of groups of Indian labourers for the purpose, among other things, of intimidating labour on the estates has been a feature of the agitation in this area for some time. On 28th February the police came into conflict with a uniformed group numbering about 50o near Sungei Patani. There was rioting and 12 arrests were made and convictions followed. Police reinforcements were sent to the area affected. There were further incidents on 3rd March, as a result of which 63 persons were

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    arrested. Sixty-one were convicted. One Tamil died of injuries received during the resistance to the police but there were no other fatal casualties and all the injured are progressing favourably. No disturbances have been reported since.
    European women and children on the estates involved were advised by the police to leave temporarily. Shortage of rice has undoubtedly exercised an unsettling influence on all labour in Malaya, but I am advised that it was not an immediate cause of these disturbances. With my approval, the Governor has introduced legislation prohibiting the wearing of uniforms and illegal drilling, in order to assist in the prevention of similar occurrences in the future.
    Mr. Fletcher: Has the right hon. Gentleman been able to ascertain what was the origin of this uprising, which is serious and fairly widespread in character, and could he say when he thinks it will he safe for women and children to return to their menfolk, since this division of families in such an area, is most undesirable?
    Mr. Creech Jones: This is a temporary operation at the instance of the police, and I have called for a report concerning the background of the dispute so that we may be able to take requisite steps to prevent recurrences.
    Mr. Gammans: Can the Minister say what are these uniforms which people are wearing, and whether this business is Communist-inspired or from what source does it come?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I prefer to wait until I have further information.
    Mr. Eden: When the right hon. Gentleman has received the report on this matter will he be good enough to make it available to the House?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Certainly, Sir.
    Dr. Haden Guest: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is discrimination in wage rates against the Indians in the plantations in Malaya, and will he call for a comprehensive report from the trade union adviser on this matter so that the House may have an opportunity of learning the economic background of this dispute?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I hope to receive a report from the trade union adviser, and I will make it available to the House.

    Canned Pineapple Exports
    Sir Basil Neven-Spenceasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many cases of tinned pineapples were exported from Malaya to the United Kingdom in 1938; and what steps are being taken to redevelop this important source of canned fruit supplies from this sterling area.
    Mr. Creech Jones: 1,696,251 cases of tinned pineapples were imported from Malaya to the United Kingdom in 1938. A small quantity was bought by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food in 1946 and he is considering further purchases. The acreage of land under pineapples fell very heavily under Japanese occupation, and a high proportion of the factories were dismantled. An expert is visiting Malaya to survey the industry, and to draw up a scheme for its rehabilitation. This will cover the reorganisation of the marketing as well as the agricultural side of the industry.
    Sir W. Smithers: Can the Minister say what price the Minister of Food paid for the pineapples?

  GIBRALTAR (EVACUEES)
  General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the position as regards the repatriation of Gibraltarians evacuated during the war period to the United Kingdom; and what is the present housing situation in Gibraltar.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Of the some 12,000 Gibraltarians evacuated to the United Kingdom over 9,000 have been repatriated. The remainder are being repatriated as accommodation is made available for them. A party of 115 is leaving on 15th March. With regard to the second part of the Question, new housing is needed in Gibraltar primarily to provide for the evacuees still in the United Kingdom, of whom there are about 3,000. Since the end of the war 155 temporary houses and 183 converted Nissen huts have been completed, and 45 more Nissen huts are under construction. Twenty-four permanent houses have been completed, and work has begun on a building contract for 472 flats. It is estimated that the completion of this programme will enable all those Gibraltarians who wish to return to do so.
  Sir G. Jeffreys: Can the Colonial Secretary say when it is expected that these people will be able to return? Is it not possible to accelerate the rate of provision of housing accommodation in Gibraltar, bearing in mind the fact that at no time has the accommodation of the inhabitants of Gibraltar been on a very lavish scale?
  Mr. Creech Jones: Building arrangements in Gibraltar are going ahead as fast as possible. We shall, as accommodation becomes available in Gibraltar, transfer some of these people from Northern Ireland.
  Sir Ronald Ross: Can the Minister say how many of these unfortunate people, after three or four years, are still left in Northern Ireland? Will it soon be possible for them to be removed to Gibraltar?
  Mr. Creech Jones: There are still just over 2,000 in Northern Ireland, and it may be that some of them will not be able to return for about two years.
  Squadron-Leader Donner: Is there any evidence to show that they do not all wish to return to Gibraltar?
  Mr. Creech Jones: I understand that the majority are anxious to return, and that many are not very happy about the climate in Northern Ireland.
  Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Can the Minister say whether accommodation in Gibraltar normally occupied by civilians is now being released by the Services?
  Mr. Creech Jones: The military authorities have done their best to release all possible accommodation in order to get back as many evacuees as fast as possible.

  AFRICAN COLONIES

    Oilseeds Commission
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will summarise the recommendations of the mission which he sent to West Africa last year to report on the possibilities of increasing the production of vegetable oils and oilseeds; and in what respects these recommendations differed from the previous conclusions of the colonial governments.
    Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Report
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    of the Oilseeds Commission, which recently visited West Africa, will be published.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I expect to publish the report in full as soon as the printing can be arranged and the preparation of a summary therefore appears unnecessary. I can, however, say that the recommendations, upon which action is proceeding in the meantime, in general confirm the previous conclusions of the Colonial Governments concerned.
    Mr. Keeling: Did the Commission report what had already been reported years ago by the Colonial Government that the only way of getting more of these ingredients for margarine is to send more transport and more consumer goods to West Africa?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, all these points are raised in the report.
    Mr. Erroll: Is it not a fact that the Commission has reported critically on the railways and other aspects of administration in West Africa, and is it not desirable that the report should be published forthwith?
    Mr. Creech Jones: There will be no delay in publishing, and as soon as it is possible to get it out the report will be available to the House.

    Coal Resources, Nigeria
    Mr. Errollasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the estimated coal reserves of Nigeria; and whether he has considered the possibility of largely increasing production and exports.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The coal resources in Nigeria are thought to be substantial but no real estimate of their extent has yet been made or can be made until the geological survey of the probable areas has been completed. This is in hand but I fear will take some time yet to carry through. Both the Governor and myself are alive to the importance and prospects of this industry but at the moment increased production and export from the existing coalfield depend largely on the capacity of the railway and port to handle larger quantities and this aspect of the matter is receiving attention. Orders have already been placed for additional locomotives and equipment and delivery should begin very soon.
    Mr. Erroll: Could the Minister say whether he will propose, when additional equipment is received, a reduction in the excessively high freight rates charged by the Government-owned railway?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That is one of the aspects of the problem that is being looked at.
    Dr. Segal: Is the Minister aware that there is an actual surplus of labour in these coalfields, that workers pay a premium to the widows of deceased miners in order to secure their work at the mine, and will he take additional steps to stimulate increased production of coal and encourage its export to areas further afield than merely West Africa?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir, and that is a step we have already taken.
    Squadron-Leader Donner: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered importing coal from Nigeria into this country?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The purpose of the inquiry was to meet shortages and the Governor has a sense of urgency in regard to it.
    Sir R. Ross: Will the Government consider denationalising the local railways?

    Welfare and Development Grants
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the amount of grants made, or about to be made, from the Colonial Welfare and Development Fund in respect of West African Colonies otherwise than on administrative or other large buildings; and what percentage this represents.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The total of schemes made or about to be made under the 1940 and 1945 Colonial Development and Welfare Acts in respect of West Africa is £15 million, of which rather over £3 million is in respect of major building programmes, and about £12 million, or 80 per cent., in respect of other schemes.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister satisfied that this is a desirable proportion to expend on buildings? Is it not out of all proportion to the amount spent on public works?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Considering the amount of development work which has to be done, and the major public works which have to be put in hand, I do not consider it is too large a proportion.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister satisfied that the provision of some of these buildings is as important as other work?
    Mr. Creech Jones: There has ben a considerable deficiency in the past two years If development work is to go forward, this work must be put in hand.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Can the right hon. Gentleman give details of the buildings and other development work on which these considerable sums have been spent? Will he consider issuing a White Paper?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I doubt whether that can be done, but I will see.

    News Services, Nigeria
    Dr. Segalasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what assistance he proposes to give to provide an adequate news service for the nationalist Press of Nigeria.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I appreciate the importance of an adequate news service being made available to the public in Nigeria, and the matter has received my attention. But it has not been the practice hitherto to make any official arrangements for the provision of news services for privately owned newspapers, on the assumption that independent agencies exist for the purpose. The situation, however, remains unsatisfactory. I should add that Nigerian newspapers already receive items of official news from the Public Relations Officer there. In addition, the London Press Service, an official service originated in London, providing commentary and background on the news, is received
    by the Nigerian Government and is available to newspapers. The question will continue to engage my attention.
    Dr. Segal: Will the Minister bear in mind that if these papers are not provided with an adequate news service, they are left with no other alternative but to fill their columns with propaganda?
    Mr. Creech Jones: That is a matter to which both the Governor and myself have given close attention. We are very anxious that the news service should be improved.
    Mr. Keeling: Does the Secretary of State think that even if he takes the water to the horse he can succeed in making him drink?
    Mr. Dumpleton: Is it not a fact that regular Press conferences were arranged for the editors of these newspapers and they failed to turn up?

    Tuberculosis Treatment
    Dr. Segalasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what sanatorium and other facilities exist for the treatment of tuberculosis in British West Africa.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am asking the West African Governors for full details, and I will let my hon. Friend have them later.
    Mr. Erroll: Has the Minister no knowledge of the extent of tuberculosis in West Africa?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I have a great deal of information, but it is inadequate. I think it is better to give complete and up-to-date information in the reply.
    Dr. Segal: Is it not a fact that no sanatoria for tubercular patients exist in West Africa, and is this not a reflection on our administration?
    Mr. Creech Jones: These proposals are included in the development schemes. Tuberculosis has been growing, and provision will be made in the 10-year programme.

    Labour Officer, Kenya
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the name and qualifications for the post of the railway worker who has been appointed to the Labour Department of the Government of Kenya.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The name of the officer is Mr. James Patrick. In the course of a wide experience in the trade union and Co-operative movements and in local government, Mr. Patrick has been an honorary secretary to an important branch of the Railway Clerks' Association for 15 years; secretary of a trades and labour council for six years; and chairman of the Western division of the Railway Clerks' Association in Scotland. He has acted as secretary of a branch of the Co-operatve Society for 15 years and during the war has served on many committees and tribunals on manpower questions.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the obvious political bias behind this, will not the right hon. Gentleman find someone better known who will carry more weight?

    Murder Convictions, Gold Coast
    Mr. Sydney Silvermanasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many convictions for murder in the Gold Coast during the past 12 months have had ritual practices as motive; and under what authority the Governor has in these cases compelled the relatives of the condemned men to witness their execution.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The answer to the first part of the Question is "None, Sir." The second part of the Question does not therefore arise. I should like to make it clear, though I should have thought in this House it was absolutely unnecessary, that no such authority exists. Indeed, I take the strongest, exception to any suggestion that the Governor would take such action.
    Mr. Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the statement he has just made will relieve the anxieties of many people who have heard this statement made on what seemed to be indubitable authority, and may we take it—[Interruption.] I am prepared to give my right hon. Friend the name of my authority, if he so wishes. Are we to take it that my right hon. Friend is giving a categorical assurance that this practice has never happened?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am giving a categorical assurance that this is not the practice. I cannot go very far back into history, but I know that in the past few generations this has not been the practice, and no Government, either in the Gold Coast or here, would for a moment condone a practice of this kind.

    Taxation
    Mr. Price-Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what direct taxation is paid per annum by an African in Kenya and Uganda, with an annual income of £150 and £10, respectively.
    Mr. Creech Jones: There is no Income Tax on incomes below £200 in either Kenya or Uganda, but direct taxation is levied on African and non-African alike in the form of Poll Tax and Personal Tax respectively. I am unable to say what direct tax Africans in these territories would pay on incomes of £150 and £10 since Poll Tax, which is payable by every adult African man, varies according to district, area, and tribe. A maximum limit of Sh.20 per annum in Kenya and

    1317
    Sh.21 in Uganda is, however, laid down by law. In Kenya, the rates vary between Sh.6 and Sh.14 and, in Uganda, between Sh.8 and Sh.21.
    Mr. Price-White: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the existing system of taxation on Africans in these territories is equitably distributing the burden in accordance with the individual's ability to pay?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir. This matter is continuously engaging the attention of the local administrations, and from time to time adjustments are made to ease the incidence where greater poverty exists.
    Mr. Alpass: Can my right hon. Friend say how many of the workers there are receiving such a disgracefully low income as £10 a year?
    Mr. Creech Jones: The average wage rate in East Africa is very low.

    "Weekly Bulletin", Sierra Leone
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent the circulation of the "Weekly Bulletin" of the public relations department in Sierra Leone is restricted by scarcity of paper; whether there is a long list of applicants for it; and whether, in view of the lack of reliable news in the Sierra Leone Press, paper supplies for the. "Weekly Bulletin" will be increased.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I am informed that the circulation of the "Weekly Bulletin" of the public relations department in Sierra Leone is not restricted by scarcity of paper. All applications for the bulletin have, since 1st January, 1947, been fully met.

    Wireless Reception Arrangements
    Mr. Price-Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the annual fee for a wireless licence in Kenya, Tanganyika and Uganda; and how it relates to the average annual wage of an unskilled labourer in these territories.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The annual fee for a wireless receiving licence in Kenya is 30 shillings. Licences are not issued in Tanganyika and Uganda. The average annual wage of an unskilled labourer in these territories is about £36. The cost of a receiving set, rather than the cost of
    1318
    the licence, is the factor limiting private listening in this income group. The difficulty has been partially met by introducing communal receiving sets, and expansion of these facilities is now under examination.
    Mr. Price-White: In view of the alleged benefit that will accrue to Africans from the possession of wireless sets, will the right hon. Gentleman see that there is a reduction in the existing fee of 30s.?
    Mr. Creech Jones: We are trying to bridge the gap by arranging for wireless sets to be installed in villages, and also by way of the communal arrangements referred to in my answer.

  CYPRUS AND GREECE (PROPOSED UNION)
  Mr. A. Lewisasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he will make a statement concerning the interview that took place between him and the National Delegation of Cyprus on 7th February, 1947, on the claim of the people of Cyprus to self-determination and union with Greece.
  Major Bramallasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what decision has been reached on the representations made by the Cypriot National Delegation in favour of the union of Cyprus with Greece.
  Mr. Creech Jones: On 7th February, I accorded an interview to a delegation from Cyprus headed by the Bishop of Paphos, who presented a memorial on the subject of the union of Cyprus with Greece. I reminded the delegation of my statement in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) on 11th December, to the effect that no change in the status
  of the island is contemplated by His Majesty's Government. I alluded further to the social and economic development programme of the island, involving substantial assistance from United Kingdom funds, and to the plans for the introduction of a more liberal constitution, which were outlined in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) on 23rd October last; and I expressed the hope of His Majesty's Government that the people of Cyprus would play their part in these beneficial developments. A written reply

  1319
  to the delegation's representations was subsequently addressed to them in similar terms To this I have nothing to add.
  Major Bramall: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind and bring to the consideration of the Cabinet the fact that this desire for union with Greece is so widespread in Cyprus that even Cypriot Socialists, who stand in very considerable personal danger from union with Greece, prefer to risk the consequences of that union rather than continue to be separated from their mother country?
  Mr. Stokes: Before my right hon. Friend replies, may I ask him if he is aware that probably the vast majority of the inhabitants of that island prefer to remain as they are?
  Mr. Creech Jones: All I can say in answer to the first supplementary question is that the Government are fully informed of the situation.
  Squadron-Leader Donner: Will the right hon. Gentleman reject this proposed union with Greece in unmistakable terms?
  Mr. Creech Jones: I have said quite clearly that no change is contemplated.
  Mr. Piratin: May I ask the Minister if he is aware that 90 per cent. of the population of Cyprus is of Greek descent—
  Mr. Stokes: No.
  Mr. Piratin: I was asking the Minister, not the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes).
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) may not ask a question of a Private Member.
  Mr. Piratin: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I was asking the Minister and the hon. Member for Ipswich interrupted.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member seemed to me to be not asking for information, but giving it.
  Brigadier-Mackeson: Will the right hon. Gentleman place a copy of the reply to the delegation in the Library?
  Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir.

  HONG KONG

    Immigration
    Mr. W. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the increase in the population of Hong Kong, as far as can be ascertained, in 1946; and at what
    1320
    monthly rate immigration is taking place in 1947.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The increase in the population of Hong Kong in 1946 is estimated at between 500,000 and 600,000. The monthly rate of immigration in 1947 is estimated at 10,000.
    Mr. Fletcher: While realising that this is a great compliment to British rule in Hong Kong, may I ask the Secretary of State what steps he proposes taking to see that this enormous influx from China does not create an impossible situation from the feeding and housing point of view beyond the capacity of the very efficient local government to handle?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, we fully appreciate the considerable difficulties in the control of immigration; it does impose a very great strain on the British administration in Hong Kong. These are problems which are exercising our attention.
    Sir R. Ross: Is this not largely due to the fact that the International Settlement in Shanghai is going back to Chinese control and the citizens of Shanghai are trying to get under British rule?
    Mr. Creech Jones: Oh, no. The situation is a little more complex than that. Hong Kong attracts people from all parts of China who wish to get away from the regime in China.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the increase in population and of the necessity for our exports, would the right hon. Gentleman consult with the Minister of Transport to see that no ships of ours go to the Far East with empty holds?

    British Government Advances
    Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what loans or gifts have been made to Hong Kong since the end of the war by the British Government.
    Mr. Creech Jones: From the liberation of the territory in September, 1945, up to the date of re-establishment of Civil Government on 1st May, 1946, His Majesty's Government advanced £1,145,000 in respect of expenditure chargeable to Hong Kong Government funds, in addition to meeting the net cost of the military administration. It is estimated that His Majesty's Government will require to

    1321
    make further advances, totalling approximately £1,200,000, during the current financial year.
    Mr. Reid: Are these further advances to be gifts or loans?
    Mr. Creech Jones: They are chiefly loans.
    Sir R. Ross: On the repayment of the loans, will the Minister undertake that the Chinese community, and, in particular, recent arrivals, bear their fair share, and the European population do not have to bear an undue proportion in Hong Kong?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I made an announcement last week that we have fresh taxation under consideration now.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Will the Minister say whether the amount was contributed or derived in any way from Japanese exports, from which appropriation had been made in aid in the original Army Estimates?
    Mr. Creech Jones: I should require notice of that.

  MAURITIUS

    Sugar Price
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what price is paid for Mauritius sugar bought by Britain; and whether he is satisfied that this price gives a sufficient return to enable the Mauritius planters and their employees to attain a satisfactory standard of life.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The price to be paid by the Ministry of Food for the 1947 Mauritius sugar crop is £24 15s. 9d. per ton c.i.f. U.K. ports. I am satisfied that this increased price will give a reasonable return to planters and I am arranging for part of it to be set aside for rehabilitation of equipment and for price stabilisation in later years. Wages will share in the improved sugar price and it is also proposed to pay out of it a contribution towards labour welfare. But the main effort towards raising living standards must be concentrated on long-term schemes of development and welfare, to which I am giving attention.
    Sir W. Smithers: Arising out of that answer, I should like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, a question. If the Secretary of State for the Colonies can give the price
    1322
    paid by this Government for bulk purchase, what means can I take to ensure that the Minister of Food will give similar information?
    Mr. Speaker: I cannot really answer these technical questions. I have no knowledge of these things.

    Government Servants' Salaries
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what reply has been sent to the Mauritius Government Servants' Association's demand for an increase of war bonus of 75 per cent. on the lowest salaries to 50 per cent. on the highest; and whether he is aware that the prices of staple foods are still increasing and many servants of the Mauritius Government are being driven into indebtedness.
    Mr. Creech Jones: The Mauritius Government Servants' and Employees Association were informed that I would be prepared to consider their request when I had received the Governor's recommendations. I have now approved the Governor's recommendations for an increase in the rate of the cost-of-living bonus based on the latest local cost-of-living indices. While the Governor has not found it possible to recommend the rates demanded by the association, the revised rates, which will be paid with retrospective effect to the 1st January last, range from 85 per cent. on the lowest salaries to a bonus of 50 rupees a month on the highest salaries affected.

    Fisheries Survey
    Mr. Dumpletonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the preliminary work for surveying the fisheries of the Mauritius-Seychelles area has now been completed; and whether the survey work has commenced.
    Mr. Creech Jones: All the necessary work preliminary to the survey has now been completed, and I hope that the survey vessel will be ready to proceed to Mauritius shortly. Work on the vessel has been held up by the restrictions on the use of electrical power.

  SOLOMON ISLANDS (WAR DAMAGE CLAIMS)
  Mr. Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if a war damage claims commission has yet been appointed

  1323
  for the British Solomon Islands; from what source financial aid will be provided; how many claims have been submitted; and when it is expected that claims will be paid?
  Mr. Creech Jones: A war damage claims commission has not yet been appointed for these islands, but it is hoped to commence the investigation of claims, of which 222 have been submitted, in a few months' time. I regret that it is not possible at this juncture to provide specific answers to the second and fourth parts of the Question, since consideration of these matters must await the reports of the various commissions which have been and are being set up in all territories concerned.
  Mr. Gammans: Is the Minister aware that the Australian Government, who are responsible for some neighbouring islands, have already completed this work? Is it not outrageous that the people should have to wait more than 18 months after the end of the Japanese war before anything is done by the Colonial Office?
  Mr. Creech Jones: This investigation is contingent on others, and until they are completed, it is not possible to make progress here.
  Mr. Gammans: What are the other investigations which prevent this work being started?
  Mr. Creech Jones: Arrangements had to be made in regard to certain other Far Eastern territories, and until these arrangements were completed, it was impossible to proceed with this.

  FIJI (LOAN)
  Squadron-Leader Donnerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies where the recent loan in Fiji was placed; for what amount and on what terms; and whether it was fully subscribed.
  Mr. Creech Jones: The loan was placed in Fiji, and was for 530,000 Fiji, i.e. £477,000 sterling (£F1 = 18s.), in the form of debentures bearing interest at 3¼ per cent., repayable on the expiration of 25 years from the date of issue. About 40 per cent. of the loan was subscribed, the remainder being taken up by underwriters.
  Squadron-Leader Donner: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it was not successful?
  Mr. Creech Jones: The loan was raised in order to redeem a 5 per cent, specific loan, but I have no information as to why it was not more successful than we hoped it would be

  LEASEHOLD TENURE
  Mr. Kingasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Royal Commission, or commission of inquiry, on the existing system of leasehold tenure.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): No, Sir. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by instituting an inquiry into this controversial matter at the present juncture.
  Mr. King: Would not the Prime Minister agree that these very long leases—I am thinking particularly of 100 year leases—should be discouraged and that this is a long standing grievance? Are new 100 year leases being created
  Mr. Baldwin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these long leases have helped this country generally?

  BERMUDA (WORKERS' PETITION)
  Mr. Dumpletonasked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a Royal Commission to report on the social, economic and political conditions of Bermuda, and to recommend suitable reforms.
  The Prime Minister: A petition has been received from the Bermuda Workers' Association for the appointment of a Royal Commission. As the House has already been informed, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies is in consultation with the Governor on the subject of the petition, and it is hoped to make a statement in the near future.
  Mr. Keeling: Is the Prime Minister aware that 45 of the first 46 Questions today were devoted to the Colonial Empire? Is that not proof that this House does take an interest, contrary to what is sometimes alleged, in the Colonies?

  ARMED FORCES

    Surplus Huts
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Defence how many timber huts are still in possession of the three Service Departments at the latest available date; what is their condition; what is the reason for the delay in selling them; and if he will make a statement about a situation, details of which have been brought to his notice.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): I regret that it would not be possible to give the information asked for without a disproportionate amount of work, and in any case the number is constantly changing. Surplus huts are reported regionally to the Ministry of Works for disposal.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the fact that one of the first duties of a Member of Parliament is to be a guardian of the public purse, does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that it has not been brought to his notice that thousands of these huts arc empty and rotting? In view of the shortage of this kind of accommodation, is this not a terrible indictment of State control and a loss to the taxpayer?
    Mr. Alexander: The hon. Member was kind enough to send me an article on a particular case into which the Air Ministry are conductng an inquiry. I am sending him a copy of the general procedure adopted in these cases.
    Sir W. Smithers: May I have a copy of the report of the inquiry?
    Mr. Alexander.

    Imperial Defence
    Mr. Kingasked the Minister of Defence whether his attention has been drawn to a speech made by the Australian Minister of External Affairs on 26th February, calling for common defence action between members of the British Commonwealth; and whether decisions taken by the 1923 and 1926 Imperial Conference imposing responsibility for all Imperial defence other than local defence upon Great Britain, still stand.
    Mr. Alexander: As regards the first part of the Question, the answer is "Yes, Sir." His Majesty's Government welcome Australia's readiness to undertake increased defence responsibilities. As re-
    1326
    gards the second part of the Question, the Resolutions of the Imperial Conferences to which my hon. Friend refers, do not state or imply that the responsibility for defending the routes which connect the self-governing countries of the British Commonwealth rests solely upon the United Kingdom.
    Mr. King: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the defence burden now resting on this country is intolerable, that unilateral disarmament has an unfortunate history and that the only proper solution lies in the way of merging sovereignty whether achieved through the Military Staffs Committee organisation, or in any other way?
    Mr. Alexander: There is an arrangement now for greater co-operation between the Military Staffs Committee and the liaison officers of the Dominions. I am grateful to them for the assistance they have given already, and I hope that it will be greater still.
    Mr. Usborne: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the opposition to General Smuts in the Union Parliament in September, 1939, was largely based on the assumption that under the Statute of Westminster the United Kingdom was responsible for protecting sea routes of the Empire, and would thereby protect South Africa?
    Mr. Alexander: If that was the background of the Members of the South African Parliament, I can only say that they would be wrong in relation to the answer I have just given.

    Northern Ireland (Civilian Discharges)
    Sir R. Rossasked the Minister of Defence how many ex-Servicemen from the United Kingdom and non-Service Eire citizens have been discharged from civil employment with the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland since 1st January.
    Mr. Alexander: Since 1st January 86 ex-Servicemen and nine non-Service Eire citizens have been discharged from civil employment by the Service Departments in Northern Ireland.
    Sir R. Ross: Is the right hon. Gentleman not ashamed that these ex-Servicemen should be sacked from their jobs in order to keep the citizens of a neutral State, who never served this country, in their employment?
    Mr. Alexander: This matter has been dealt with several times in the House. The figures I have just given cover a great number of different stations in Northern Ireland, and probably in cases where ex-Servicemen have been discharged, there were no Eire men serving who could have been discharged.
    Sir R. Ross: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many jobs are held by Eire non-Servicemen, and for which there are quite competent ex-Servicemen available?
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that, relatively speaking, Eire did more to help this country in the war than Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Mulvey: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many British ex-Servicemen, natives of Eire, have been refused renewals of residence permits in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Alexander: I have no actual figures on that point.

    Deserters (Sentences)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Defence how many men in the three Services are serving sentences for desertion; how many of these convictions date from before June, 1945; and, in view of the new policy of the Government towards deserters who have not been traced, if he will take steps to revise these sentences of deserters, in order to bring the policy towards them in line with that towards those who are now surrendering.
    Mr. Alexander: The number of men serving sentences for desertion is: Royal Navy, 260; Army, 458; and Royal Air Force, 30. As regards the second part of the Question, precise information is not immediately available, but very few, if any, of these sentences date from before June, 1945. The answer to the last part of the Question is that, as I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd), on 19th February, deserters who surrendered before 22nd January this year are eligible for the same treatment as those who surrendered after that date.
    Mr. Piratin: In view of the fact that almost all these sentences were imposed after the war was concluded, would the Minister not give consideration to reducing the sentences in order to bring them
    1328
    into line with action being taken in relation to those offering to return to the Forces after having deserted?
    Mr. Alexander: I think that Service Ministers have already indicated that those who are sentenced in the ordinary way after apprehension automatically have their sentences reviewed from time to time.
    Mrs. Paton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that although these men were promised open arrest there are still cases of close arrest and that there are sentences which are very harsh and excessive? How can we expect men to surrender when they know these facts?
    Mr. Alexander: From my own knowledge of the sentences I should think they could hardly be considered severe. In many cases where they are fairly heavy they have actually been suspended on immediate review. I think that the deserters still outstanding would do very well to take advantage of the offer before the end of the month.
    Mr. McGovern: Could the right hon. Gentleman not induce the Government to adopt a more humane policy on this question of deserters, which is a running sore and a continuation of Nazi ideas—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—I know how hon. Members all sympathise with it—to bring all these men back into decent life? Could the right hon. Gentleman not decide to eliminate all sentences imposed after the end of the war on men who deserted previously?
    Mr. Alexander: There are very strong views held by men still in the Services who have been loyal all the way through, and who are of the opinion that some of these sentences are too lenient.

    Use of Manpower
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Minister of Defence what is the composition of the Committee, or Committees, at present investigating the use of manpower in the Services; whether the investigation is being made in a form, and to standards common to all three Services, or separate for each; what proportion of the members of the Committee, or Committees, are Service personnel, and what proportion civilians; how many of them have experience in such subjects as operation study, office mechanisation, etc.; and whether the Organisation and Methods Division of the

    1329
    Treasury, and the Organisation and Methods Sections of the Service Ministries have been consulted in the investigation.
    Mr. Alexander: The initiative in this matter was taken by the Service Departments themselves, and the form of investigation varies with the particular needs of each Service. In all cases, however, both military and civilian personnel are engaged on the work and the organisation and methods experts are consulted. I am circulating further details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Mikardo: Will the details which my right hon. Friend is circulating assure the House that this inquiry is being made seriously and scientifically with the purpose of finding out whether establishments have been reduced and not with the object of justifying the status quo?
    Mr. Alexander: Perhaps my hon. Friend will study the statement, and if he has further points perhaps he will let me have them.
    Following are the details:
    Royal Navy
    The Admiralty have largely completed a comprehensive expert review of the organisation and manning of certain technical branches of the Royal Navy; they have recently appointed a permanent complement committee under the Deputy Chief of Naval Personnel to control the settlement of complements of H.M. Ships and shore establishments. To assist this committee in its work, a special body has been set up to examine and revise the normal rules of assessment of complements in H.M. Ships. Four civilians are serving on these committees. All the members of the committees have considerable experience in the questions involved, and can seek advice and assistance from Admiralty departments, including the organisation and methods branch, on particular aspects of their work
    Army
    A War Office committee, under an experienced general officer, is reviewing methods and processes in ordnance establishments, with a view to manpower saving. This committee includes two civilian and one military officer. In addition, an experienced accountant, Sir Charles Palmour, has been appointed to examine Army methods of store-keeping, assisted
    1330
    by a civilian expert specially appointed for the purpose; the organisation and methods branch is taking part in both these investigations. Instructions have been issued for the reduction of units to their appropriate peace establishment, and a special military investigation is now being carried out to prune the staffs of training establishments.
    Air Ministry
    The Air Ministry have a standing committee, with sub-committees in overseas theatres, to ensure a continuous review of establishments. They have recently decided to carry out a review of the methods of manning and use of manpower in the Royal Air Force, and for this purpose have appointed a special committee, which includes two civilian members of standing in the industrial world. The organisation and methods experts of the Air Ministry are consulted as occasion requires.

    Egyptian Army (Munition Supplies)
    Mr. Wilkesasked the Minister of Defence what was the total value of the army and air force weapons, machines and general equipment supplies to the Egyptian army from 1st January, 1936, to 1st January, 1946; and what is the total value of the army and air force machines, weapons and equipment supplied to the Egyptian Government since June. 1945 up to the latest available date.
    Mr. Alexander: I regret that this information is not readily available, and could not he produced without great difficulty.

    Strengths
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Minister of Defence the estimated number of men and women who will be serving in each of the three Services on 30th June, 1947.
    Mr. Alexander: I regret it is not possible to give an accurate estimate of the expected strengths of the Forces at an intermediate date, such as 30th June, because there are many variable factors, such as the rate of intake of voluntary recruits, short-term re-engagements, and voluntary deferments. I do not expect, however, that the figures will exceed, for the Royal Navy, 194,000; the Army, 795,000; and the Royal Air Force, 323,000.

    Mineworkers
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Minister of Defence how many men, who have at any time worked in the mines, are still serving with the Armed Forces, but excluding men balloted under the Bevin Scheme who have entered the Forces since the repeal of the Essential Work Orders.
    Mr. Alexander: I gave the total numbers of men with mining experience now in the Forces in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) on 5th March. I regret that the numbers of ex-ballotees who have entered the Forces since the repeal of the Essential Work Order are not available.
    Mr. Cooper: Will my right hon. Friend consider making arrangements for these men to get priority demobilisation, so that they can return to the mining industry, should they so wish?
    Mr. Alexander: We give immediate release in the case of applications from those in the Forces who have experience of mining. Most of the Bevin boys in the Forces are those who were found to be unfit for the work and were therefore taken into the Forces. I think that each case should be examined on its merits.

BILLS PRESENTED
  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL
  "to confine the operation of the National Service Acts to male British subjects and to service in the Armed Forces of the Crown; to make provision as to the terms and conditions of such service and as to the period for which those Acts shall continue in operation; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Isaacs; supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. A. V. Alexander, Sir Stafford Cripps and Mr. Ness Edwards; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 46.]
  NORTHERN IRELAND BILL
  "to enlarge the legislative power of the Parliament of Northern Ireland in respect of certain matters and, in connection therewith, to remove doubts regarding the validity of certain laws made by that Parliament; to validate the Fire Services (Emergency Provisions) Act (Northern Ireland), 1942; to apply Part III of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act, 1945, to Northern Ireland; to extend Section two of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1945; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented by Mr. Ede; supported by Mr. Glenvil Hall and Mr. Oliver; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 47.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  ECONOMIC SITUATION
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [10th March>],
  "That this House welcomes the laying before Parliament of a survey of the nation's requirements and resources for the year 1947, is concerned at the seriousness of the situation disclosed, and will support the Government in all practical measures taken in co-operation with all sections of the people of the country to overcome the difficulties and to make secure the foundations of our industry so as to provide a high standard of living for our people."—[Sir Stafford Cripps.]
  Question again proposed.
  3.32 p.m.
  Mr. Churchill: I beg to move, in line 2, to leave out from "1947" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
  "and, while recognising the ever increasing gravity of the economic crisis and willing to

  1333
  give its support to any practical measures to meet it, regrets that the full facts of the situation have for so long been withheld from the country; and has no confidence in a Government whose actions hitherto have served only to aggravate the national difficulties and whose proposals for the future are either inadequate or injurious."
  The problems which confronted the
  British nation on the morrow of their victory required the strength of a united people to solve and overcome. Instead of that, the Socialist Government, in their hour of unexpected success, set themselves to establish the rule of a party, and of a sect within a party. Having even then, as my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) reminded us, polled only 37 per cent. of the total electorate, they nevertheless deemed it their mission to impose their particular ideological formulas and theories upon all the rest of their fellow countrymen, regardless of the peril in which we all stood, regardless of the urgency of the work to be done, most of all regardless of the comradeship by which alone we had survived the war.
  This was a crime against the British State and people, the consequences of which have hampered our recovery, darkened our future and now endanger our very life. In our immense administrative difficulty, the Prime Minister and his colleagues should have concentrated upon their immediate practical tasks, and left the fulfilment of party ambition and the satisfaction of party appetites, at least until we, and the rest of the world with us, stood on firmer and safer ground. Before they nationalised our industries they should have nationalised themselves. They should have set country before party, and shown that they were Britons first, and Socialists only second. They should have set the day-to-day well-being of the whole mass of the nation before and above the gratification of party passions. In this they would have found an honourable and worthy mission, from which lasting honour for themselves and their party might have been reached.
  On the contrary, mouthing slogans of envy, hatred and malice, they have spread class warfare throughout the land and all sections of society, and they have divided this nation, in its hour of serious need, as it has never been divided, in a different way from that in which it has ever been divided, in the many party
  1334
  conflicts I have witnessed in the past. In less than two years our country, under their control, has fallen from its proud and glorious position in the world, to the plight in which it lies this afternoon, and with even more alarming prospects opening upon us in the future. That is their offence, from which we shall suffer much, and with the guilt and discredit of which their name and the doctrines of their party will long be identified in British homes.
  For our part, when this Government first took office, although profoundly distressed by the vote of the electorate—[Laughter]—no one more than me—we immediately offered any services which we could render to the national cause, not only at home, but in the United States. I, and my leading colleagues did our utmost, against a good many of our friends here, in our party, to help the Government to obtain the American loan of £1,000 million, in spite of the disadvantageous conditions under which it was offered. I used such personal influence as I had in the United States, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows, to clear away American misunderstandings, so far as it is in the power of any private citizen to do any such thing. On every occasion hitherto, my colleagues and I have emphasised the importance of national savings, and we shall continue to do so, but I have an increasing feeling, in view of inflation, that at any rate the smallest class of savings might be linked to some permanent standard of values. We have voted with the Government in everything they have done for the sake of our country, but what has been the return? An aggressive party attack has been made upon us.
  I am sorry to see, from the newspapers, though I am glad I was not here, that the Minister of Defence distinguished himself by showing that aggressive spirit last night. An unbroken stream of scorn and hatred has been poured out upon us, not only by Government speakers in all parts of the country, but from the official Government newspaper, the "Daily Herald." One would have thought that the ten million people, who voted for us, or with us, at the Election, were hardly fit to live in the land of their birth, although most of them were folks who had given a lot for the national victory.
  The first and the gravest injury which
  our country has sustained is psychological.

  1335
  It is the injury to the spirit. I was the Prime Minister responsible, as head of the Government, for the present crushing weight of direct taxation including the almost confiscatory taxation of wealth. All this was done with a great Conservative majority by a Prime Minister of the Conservative Party and by a Chancellor of the Exchequer of the Conservative Party. I was also responsible, as head of the Government, for the controls and regulations of all kinds that were in force at the end of the war. We must not forget that afternoon in May, 1940—I was not here; I had to go to Paris—when the enormous Tory majorities in both Houses of Parliament voted into the hands of the Government, for the sake of our country's survival, practically all the rights of property and, more precious still, of liberty on which what we have called civilisation is built. That ought not to be forgotten when hon. Members opposite mock at us as exploiters, rack renters and profiteers. It ought not to be forgotten, nor grinned at, that Conservative majorities in both Houses of Parliament, in one single afternoon, offered all they had and all that they were worth.
  Britain saved herself at that time. Perhaps it may be argued, in the light of history, that she saved the world. But what is so particularly odious and mean, and what has caused this deep schism in our island life, is that this sacrifice so nobly made for victory—not only for our own survival and self-preservation but for the victory of the world cause of freedom—should be used and exploited for party purposes and for the institution of a system of Socialism abhorrent to the mass of the nation, destructive of the free life we have known here so long, and paralysing to our native enterprise and energy. Advantage has been taken of the generous impulses of the nation and they have been used for the opposite purpose for which they were given. Rarely has there been such a distortion of trust or breach of ordinary British fair play. It is that malversation of wartime sacrifices, that "fraud on the power" which has riven the nation in twain and rendered it incapable, while the abuse continues, of overcoming and surmounting its many problems and difficulties.
  I have hitherto dealt with what I call the psychological aspect. I now come to the material things by which we live—a
  1336
  lower level, but still essential for the continuance of existence. I will first deal with bread and coal. I shall be told, "You complained of too much regulation. You, Mr. Churchill, complained of too much regulation about bread, and you also complained of too little regulation about coal. Where do you stand upon control of these two fundamental supplies?" It may be asked—it is a perfectly fair question and I give hon. Members opposite an opportunity to cheer it—" Have you any central theme of thought in these matters, or are you merely taking points off a harassed Government as difficulties arise?" I will answer that question as bluntly as I have put it, but it will take a little while. There was no need for a bread shortage and there was no need for the breakdown in coal. I assert that the shortages which have caused us so much trouble and misfortune, both in bread and coal, are merely marginal and could have been provided against by reasonable foresight and prudence.
  Of course, now that the crisis has come, all kinds of emergency measures may be necessary, but if we look back to a year ago, it would have been possible though not easy—many things are not easy nowadays—to maintain sufficient supplies to avoid the disasters which have come upon us. First, take bread. The whole of this process of costly and vexatious rationing, to which even in the crisis of the U-boat war we never had to resort, has only saved so far 290,000 tons of wheat out of a total consumption of perhaps 2,500,000 tons since bread rationing began. Why, then, did Sir Ben Smith give away 200,000 tons of our agreed allocation in April, 1946? Why did the Lord President, in May, waive our claims to another 250,000 tons of foreign wheat which His Majesty's Government had been convinced, and the Food Ministry had been convinced, our people needed? Here were 450,000 tons that we could have had for our under-nourished people which were whistled down the wind last year for reasons which have never been properly explained to Parliament.
  Compassion, charity and generosity are noble virtues, but the Government should be just before they are generous. There is no virtue or wisdom in so far undermining the physical strength of our population that we ourselves have to join the ranks of those who were broken by the war and cease to have the power to help

  1337
  the world even to make the British wheels go round. There are international bodies of great power and force nowadays, and undoubtedly they will continue. We do not get very well treated on these international bodies, anyhow. We do not seem to be able to stand up for ourselves, for our own rights and our needs. Of course, when the new British Food Minister says that we are on the whole better nourished than ever before, not much sympathy can be expected from international bodies dealing with a number of countries who are not at all backward in making their claims and dilating upon their woes. Let me repeat what the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is reported to have said the other day:
  "Already in this country the people are probably enjoying the highest standard of living in the world. We are not even suffering from as many shortages as people would imagine."
  What chance have we got before these international committees of making our case for the hard-working people of this island, when it is given away beforehand by
  the Minister? I affirm here this afternoon that the British people today are under-nourished. They are less well fed—[Interruption.] I have never heard much anger expressed, in my long experience, from the Left Wing and Radical quarters about anything which got more food to the people. It has always been a point they championed. But now the Government's Socialist policy comes first and the welfare of the people comes second. I say that our people are less well fed in this victorious but precariously balanced island, with its magnificent but at the same time delicate and ramshackle structure of wealth producing apparatus, than are the populations of Holland, Belgium and Denmark. They are three countries which have just emerged from long years of Prussian German Nazi rule.
  I say there was no need for bread rationing with all its inconveniences and the additions to our clerical staffs and paper forms so dear to the hearts of the party opposite. I say there was no need for all this inconvenience if we had not needlessly and wrongfully given up the basic share to which our condition entitled us, which our ships could carry, and which our money, albeit borrowed, could last year and this year at any rate buy.
  I challenge the Government directly and in detail, on this food issue. We are fre-
  1338
  quently informed that 2,400 calories is the minimum daily amount to maintain a human being in a state of health. It was only a few weeks ago that we were told in this House by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food—who is in her place and whose authoritarian demeanour would inspire all, if her agreeable personality did not somewhat discourage it—that our rations gave us less than 1,400 calories, and that from food bought on points, another 200 calories could be derived, 1,600 calories in all. Yet the Chancellor of the Duchy—he has gone—I did not mean to knock him out so quickly. The Chancellor of the Duchy was challenged because the Germans only got, as was said, 1,550 calories. He explained that this was merely the basic ration, and that two-thirds of the Germans were getting rations varying from 2,550 calories to 3,990 calories. I hope it is true. I would not begrudge anybody the food they can get, but how do the statements correspond with the arguments which are used to make us content with the diet which, without having committed great crimes in the world, our nation has now to receive?
  We are told, of course, that our people get another 1,300 calories from foods outside the rationed types. Well, I should like to know where. To get 1,300 calories each, persons would have to eat 5 lb. of potatoes or 8 lb. of cabbage every day, and which of us, I should like to know, except perhaps the President of the Board of Trade, would do that even if we could buy such quantities of vegetables and could afford to pay the price which is being charged for them? I am quite prepared to take my share of whatever the British nation subjects itself to, but not necessarily to contemplate receiving with composure the consequences of the mismanagement of the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. I repeat that the British people are under-nourished today. This lethargy in work and falling-off in individual output to which attention has been drawn from every quarter of the House, is only partly due to Socialist teachings. It is mainly due to a shortfall in the necessary calories in respect especially of the heavy manual workers. All this is quite apart from the dreary, dull monotony of diet which directly affects incentive. Let us put up a fight for John Bull's food anyhow—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] He will make the sacrifices if he is called

  1339
  upon to do so, but to run him down as low as this, is a scandal and a shame.
  In the whole business of purchasing food and other commodities the State, that is to say the Government officials and Ministers involved, have already shown a lack of foresight and judgment which plainly reveals their incapacity as compared with private traders competing with one another, animated by the profit motive, and corrected constantly by the fear of loss and by the continual elimination of the inefficient. That is a general principle. I say that the wanton and partisan—this is only an incident, but I cannot omit it here—destruction of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange will be for ever held against the distinguished record of the President of the Board of Trade as an act of folly and of pedantry, amounting to little less than bad citizenship.
  Now I turn from bread to coal—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is the Minister?"] I am sorry that the Minister of Fuel and Power is not here. I intend to devote an important section of argument to the matter for which he is responsible. I cannot, however, consider that the Business of the House should be frustrated by the evidently calculated absence of the Minister concerned in any particular matter which it is necessary to raise. I will address myself to the Prime Minister as far as possible in this matter.
  Here in the case of coal the argument is much clearer than in that of bread. The saving produced by all this stoppage of industry, with its measureless reactions upon our means of earning our livelihood in future years, and averting financial catastrophe, has been very small. What does it amount to? The only figure we had
  was given to us by the Prime Minster. He said there was a saving of 550,000 tons at the electrical generating stations. That is much less than a single day's output of the mines. How much should I add for the other direct saving: two, three, four days' output? The Government have not told us. Perhaps I should say it is four days—five at the very most. That is all we have saved by the whole of the inconveniences and hardship inflicted on the domestic consumer and the stoppage of industry, leading, mind you, to a rise in unemployment only just short of the previous high peak of unemployment, the last time a Socialist Government was in office in 1930.
  1340
  It is no pleasure to me to hit the Minister of Fuel and Power now that he is down—I do not know whether he is out or not, but he is certainly not here. I must, however, mark his total lack of foresight. The misleading statements
  which he made repeatedly are so notorious that I will not trouble the House by quoting them, though I have them here. They have certainly robbed him—I say this seriously to the Prime Minister—of the credence and confidence of the public. Everyone knows he is a very straight, honourable man in private life, but no one will believe his statements about the coal situation in future, and no statement that he makes will receive the slightest attention. It is a matter which certainly should be considered, and which perhaps explains his absence from our Debate this afternoon. He failed to persuade the Cabinet in good time or else they failed to persuade him—I cannot tell, naturally—but he failed to persuade the Cabinet of the calamities which would come upon us, if we ran short of the few odd millions of marginal coal which should be kept as a sacred reserve, as what is called the distributional minimum or, in the "Digest", distributive stock.
  There were produced in the year 1946 189 million tons of coal. If we had had only 4 million or 5 million tons more, we could have got through without this disaster, and with something in hand. Five million tons extra, and we should have come through this hard, hazardous winter without a breakdown. The plainest warnings were given. It is remarkable, looking back, how often the figure of 5 million tons of coal was mentioned. Belatedly, the Minister of Fuel and Power himself realised it—
  "What stands between us and success this winter?"
  he asked on 26th September of last year.
  "A matter of 5,000,000 tons of coal."
  On that coal, he said, depended the salvation of this country. And Mr. Horner—Comrade Horner—speaking at a coal production conference at Edinburgh on 6th October, said:
  "For each 5 million tons of coal of which the industry might be short, there will be a consequential loss of employment to more than 1,000,000 people."
  There was certainly not any lack of warning from that quarter. Five million tons
  of coal. Why, the Government allowed its Minister of Fuel or its President of the

  1341
  Board of Trade to export 9 million tons,
  no doubt with very good reason, in this same war. No doubt the reasons were good but, nevertheless, 9 million tons of coal were exported in bunkering or otherwise during the year, and 5 of these 9 millions kept at home, or 5 millions imported in good time, would have saved us from a breakdown in the whole of our productive industry which will cost us directly tens of millions and, indirectly, hundreds of millions in the productive energies of our people.
  It is no new topic. We watched the coal position vigilantly every year of the war. We took the necessary difficult decisions each year in good time. In January or February you must always make sure that you will be able, by the winter, to build up your stocks to the normal 18 million tons of coal or thereabouts, so that you do not drop below the distributional minimum on account of any extra winter consumption. All through the war, we succeeded in keeping this reserve intact. The President of the Board of Trade stated in his comprehensive speech two days ago that during the war we had steadily reduced our stocks. That is quite untrue.
  The President of the Board of Trade (Sir Stafford Cripps)indicated dissent.
  Mr. Churchill: It is no good the right hon. and learned Gentleman shaking his head; he cannot alter his own "Statistical Digest," or what he calls his own "Statistical Digest," by shaking his head. Our so-called distributive stocks, parcelled out throughout the whole country for the daily consumption, in the winter of 1944, were larger than those in 1939. In the intervening years between 1939 and 1944 they were larger still. Why, then, did he say to the House that we had eaten into, or worn down, our reserve of coal during the war? It is quite inaccurate. The right hon. and learned Gentleman two days ago, with a great deal of emphasis, lifted up this book which I hold in my hand, and charged hon. Members that they had probably never read it or would not recognise it. He took it as a book for which he should have the credit—"Socialism gets things done"—as if he had published this book,' brought it out. Why, this very return, this "Digest," was brought into being at my wish, in the autumn of 1940, but, of course, in the war the figures could not be published.
  1342
  What the right hon. and learned Gentleman has done is to claim the parentage and the credit—if credit there be for such an obvious act, as to make it public.
  However, while he has made it public, and lectured hon. Members of this House on not studying it with more attention, there are some facts in it which have at any rate escaped his omniscient eye. The first one is that there was no inroading of stocks under all the cruel, hard necessities of the war. The figures can be found on page 20. For the first time, in the dawn of 1945, the National Government of those days saw the red light. We have a record of what happened at the turn of that year. The usual coal scrutiny was made, as it ought to be made, by the responsible Ministers at the head of the Government, 10 months before the event. It was reported to me that we should have in April—April is the key month, because then we turn from the winter expenditure to the summer scale in the coal year—only 10 million tons instead of the normal 12 million tons which we had always considered the minimum, and therefore it would be difficult to build up to more than 16 million tons by the end of October. Look at that—January, 1945. Those were very rough days. The Von Rundstedt offensive which had been launched
  in the Ardennes was still in progress. We were preparing to cross the Rhine. Everything was being strained for that. Nevertheless, at that moment, rather than fall below the minimum precautionary coal reserve, I sent a minute, being well advised, to the Minister of Fuel and Power—my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd-George), the bearer of a famous name—stopping all further commitments to export coal, even to the Armies, without my express permission.
  It is a very serious thing to run short of coal in this island when a matter of five million tons can save it. It can ruin the whole of one's war making capacity. What happened after I left office I do not know. By the winter of 1945 the Socialist Government had only built up our distributive stock to 13.8 million tons. Fortunately for them, industry was changing over and had not got fully into its stride. The winter was mild, so we got through to the spring without any major dislocation. That was a period for which we were jointly responsible. There was

  1343
  the National Government, followed by the Conservative Government at the beginning, and the right hon. Gentlemen opposite at the end. What happened then? In April, 1946, the so-called distributive stocks were down to less than seven million tons—smaller than they had ever been in this century. Surely, then the danger must have been glaring.
  The National Government had taken extraordinary measures when our stocks dropped to 10 million tons; it was a very strong measure to check the supply of fuel to the Army when we were pushing a great operation. It is true we can always rely on them having a little up their sleeves. The quartermaster spirit is not lacking in the ranks of the British Army, but still the position was very serious. We took these extraordinary measures when the stocks dropped to 10 million tons. The present Government, however, who have been so busy with so many important intellectual exercises, do not seem to have taken any care, although the stocks dropped to 7 million tons. For a year it must have been obvious that, without exceptional measures, we should never reach the desired 18 million tons by the autumn. That was the time when the Government should have realised what impended. That is the time when they should have taken steps to meet the otherwise inevitable catastrophe—a catastrophe which would have happened, whatever the weather. The weather has added to the misery and discomfort of all our people, but it has not altered the march of economic events in a decisive fashion.
  Why did not the Government do anything? I ask the Prime Minister to let us know tonight. We were not at war then. All our enemies were conquered. The seas were opened. I am told there is more tonnage afloat now than there ever has been. A little ordinary forethought and a little planning would have made sure that the necessary minimum of stocks in reserve was not lacking. I cannot understand the answer to this question. Why did the Government not buy more coal? If they could not get it in any other way, why did they not buy it? I am assured that it could have been bought. Five million tons would have done it, and more than done it. It might have cost £8 million or £9 million, but if we did not want it, we could have sold it again. We
  1344
  should have wanted it as it turned out, and we should not have sold it again.
  Here are these gentlemen who are all so clever and eager to make an earthly Paradise, where all the work does itself, where all we have to do is to soak the rich—if any can be found—and hire more officials for control, if there are any unemployed. They had forgotten this elementary precaution. They were so busy planning Utopia, so ardent to score off their party opponents, that they forgot their duty, they gave away our bread, and forgot our coal. If 5 million tons of coal had been bought in the last 12 months, in America or South Africa, it would not have stopped this hard winter but, at least, we would have had the means to come through it without a collapse. It is not a very good advertisement for Socialist planning. In fact, a frightful injury, easily avoidable, has been inflicted upon the wage-earning masses and the unhappy middle class, which will lead to worse privation in the future. That is one of the justifications for the Amendment which I am moving.
  Before I leave the subject of coal, there is one other fact upon which I must correct the President of the Board of Trade. On Monday I asked whether the rise in the consumption of electricity had not been offset by the corresponding reduction in the domestic consumption of coal. The right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer was:
  "No, Sir. The right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. There has not been a corresponding reduction at all."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1947; Vol. 434, c. 981.]
  According to this "Statistical Digest," of which we share the parentage, in 1938, the last prewar year, the domestic consumers got 45,500,000 tons of coal. In 1946, they got only 31 million tons of coal—a drop of nearly a third. In the same period the consumption of coal for electricity works increased by about 11 million tons, from 15 million to 26 million tons. But of this, as the Secretary of State for the Dominions informed us in another place, only about one-third is to be reckoned against the domestic consumer. Thus, whereas the domestic consumer was cut by 14,500,000 tons of coal, and as his or her—the housewives come into this—increased use of electricity corresponded to less than 4 million tons, there was a net reduction of 10 million tons in 1946 as compared with 1938.

  1345
  which is the last prewar year. The population has not diminished. The ordinary people still feel the difference between heat and cold. They still have to use fuel sometimes to cook their dinner. Why, then, should there be this severe reduction in the supply of coal? I venture to think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should study more carefully than he evidently has found time to do, with so much on his hands, this Digest which he commended so ceremoniously to us the other day.
  So much for bread and coal. I think I have answered that question—that the Government could have avoided both these shortages by taking reasonable precautions, and that any other Government which has ever sat on the benches opposite would, in the normal working of its affairs, have had the foresight to take these quite manageable measures in good time and not lead us where we are today.
  I must say a word about housing. I am sorry that the Minister of Health is not here, and still more sorry for the cause. We are glad to know he is improving in health. We shall all be very glad to have him hack here, in order to bring home to him the position in which we stand. The destruction wrought by the enemy by the bombing of our homes raised the building and repair of our houses to the very first urgency after food and fuel. In nearly two years, in spite of all the regulations, penalties and paper forms, we built fewer permanent houses than were built every two months under private enterprise and Tory government before the war. Remarkable. In those two years, when it was really Operation No. I, fewer permanent houses were built than were built in the ordinary course of affairs, under private enterprise and a Tory Government before the war. [HON. MEMBERS: What about after the last war?"] I thought it was coming. We shall, no doubt, be reminded of Dr. Addison, now Lord Addison, K.G. We must, no doubt, be reminded of his failure after the previous war. It is quite true that he was a great failure; and he was dismissed by
  Mr. Lloyd George, with lively Labour approbation. It is no part o my duty to defend Lord Addison today. But the need of rehousing then, was not comparable with what it is at the present time, because the cessation of building was not so complete and prolonged, and millions of houses had not been damaged
  1346
  or destroyed by bombing. Besides, everyone should live and learn.
  We improved a lot of things in the war which has just finished, from the mistakes made in the 1914–18 war. Certainly we ought to have rectified a lot of the mistakes made in the last peace, in the one which has now come to us. I am sure it would have been possible, with energy, ingenuity and good will, for the Minister responsible to set in motion again the vast, flexible, complete system of house building, both by private enterprise and by local authorities, which in the years before the recent war was producing houses of a good kind for letting or sale, at a rate four times as rapid as that of which the Government can boast today, after two years of peace and nearly 20 months of office. Socialist propaganda and trade union prejudice have attained a remarkable result in Lord Quibell's case. Here was a Socialist peer, a former and much respected colleague of ours, who tried to stimulate house building by a system of bonuses for the builders, through the number of bricks laid per hour. The builders liked this system, and responded to it. Up went the production rate. Well, we all know what happened to Lord Quibell's scheme. And this is typical of what is happening all over the country.
  I turn to the national expenditure of money and manpower. I will mention only a certain number of items which might demand the attention of the House of Commons. First of all, instead of leaving the Germans to manage their own affairs and helping them as much as we could, as Christian men, while stopping rearmament, we are spending £20 million a year on trying to solve their problems when we cannot solve our own, in trying to teach them all to hate the Nazis and only succeeding in teaching them to hate us. Then there is Palestine: £82 million since the Socialist Government came into power squandered in Palestine, and 100,000 Englishmen now kept away from their homes and work, for the sake of a senseless, squalid war with the Jews in order to give Palestine to the Arabs, or God knows who. "Scuttle," everywhere, is the order of the day—Egypt, India, Burma. One thing at all costs we must preserve: the right to get ourselves world-mocked and world-hated over Palestine, at a cost of £82 million. Then there is all this silliness, amounting almost to lunacy, about the spending of the American loan.

  1347
  I must say, I thought it was to be used to re-equip our factories and plants, and to give us the essential food while we got on our feet again. But apparently far less than one-tenth—I am not going into smaller fractions—was spent on re-equipment and all the rest is subject to further decision.
  Then there is the story about the dried eggs. Half the foreign exchange spent on dried eggs last year, if devoted to bringing in maize, would have given twice as much real nourishment to the British people, and there would have been the chickens as well. But no. The maize must go to the delightful people in Yugoslavia and Albania, who murdered 44 of our sailors a few weeks ago. Indeed, some of it may have gone to the Poles and Czechs who, I understand, are offering to export eggs and poultry to us. Then there are the Poles in this country. I would have had them all parked out suitably in Germany, far from the Russian or Polish lines, within six months of the end of the German war. It never occurred to me that anything else but that would have been done. Now they are with us here, eating I am told, in many cases, better rations than we are allowed to have ourselves. I am sorry for these men; they are brave men who have defended their country's cause. But presently the Government will have a bitter quarrel with them, a quarrel which has begun already. Surely, it would have been wiser, in principle at any rate, to have 180,000 Poles in Germany and 180,000 more Englishmen at home. Then, of course, we are told it might have offended Russia. His Majesty's Government have been very successful in not offending Russia. Perhaps they will allow me to offer my congratulations on that.
  At the present time we have the pleasure of being administered by 460,000 more civil servants—double the size of the prewar Armv—than we had before the war began, at a cost calculated at £150 million a year. The Socialist ideal is to reduce us to one vast Wormwood Scrubbery. I do not wish to exaggerate it, because it is quite true that at Wormwood Scrubbs there is only one official to every four prisoners, whereas up to the present we have the advantage of only one official to look after every eight wage earners or producers. There is nothing like getting the facts accurately. I am looking at the expenditure of the year. I hope the
  1348
  Chancellor of the Exchequer will be following this discussion, for I am sure he cannot be entirely blind to some of the tendencies which I am indicating.
  We come now to the Minister of Defence. As I say, I was glad not to have heard his quite unexpected performance yesterday. I have a regard for him, and I also think that a Minister of Defence should stand a little aloof from party and Parliamentary disputes. [HON. MEMBERS: Why?] Because he is supposed to run the Services, in which all parties take an interest from one point of view or another. Of course, I doubt whether he has improved his prestige and authority by the exhibition he made of himself last night.
  I am bound to say, I hope the
  Service Estimates will be examined
  by the House with great care. Quite apart from the fighting strengths which have to be maintained—which I am not arguing today—I fear a very great degree of non-effective padding has been introduced into all three Services under a lax and incompetent political control. I should like to know, as the result of a searching inquiry, whether, for instance, in the Navy there is not a much smaller proportion of men afloat to men ashore, or of men afloat to the money we pay, than has ever been known before. I should like to see some figures on that. I should like to know whether, in the case of the Air Force, there is not an ever-increasing ground-staff compared with those who fly; and in the case of the Army, whether the proportion of fighting men—which is, after all, the end and object of military forces—is not getting continually smaller. It is the old story I have often told of the teeth and the tail. At the moment, I believe, the teeth are falling out and the tail is growing ever longer and fatter. Surely, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the House of Commons as a whole should take some interest in this aspect.
  I suspect, moreover, that the military, naval, and the Air Force chiefs, for whom I have the greatest regard, are not sufficiently controlled in these financial aspects by the present Government. The control by Parliamentary Ministers of the Services is more important in time of peace than in time of war, when military views necessarily predominate. We have weak or absentee Ministers in all three Service Departments. All three heads have been

  1349
  changed in a year. There are new Ministers now. There is a new Minister of Defence, if he would not absorb himself entirely in politics. Nevertheless, it is the duty of the House of Commons to make sure that strict Parliamentary and financial control should prevent waste, and overcharge to the public. It is doubly important now to reduce redundant noneffectives—quite apart from strategic issues—when so many of our troops are abroad and, consequently, affect our limited foreign exchange.
  There are two great topics with which I ought, certainly, to deal—agriculture and finance; but' I cannot trespass too long upon the indulgence of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."] The first of these topics was dealt with last night by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler); and we shall explore, or ask to be allowed to explore, most thoroughly in the near future, the very grave situation in home-grown foods, and future plans for growing them. As to finance, I shall follow the example of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and reserve what I have to say on that dominating subject until the Budget, which is now not far distant.
  The French have a saying, "Drive Nature away, and she will return at the gallop." Destroy the free market, and you create a black market; you overwhelm the people with laws and regulations, and you induce a general disrespect of law; you guillotine legislation in the House of Commons, and pass masses of Orders in Council. You may decree that a builder who builds a house without a licence is liable to seven years' penal servitude, but you will find that juries will not convict him. You may try to destroy wealth, and find that all you have done is to increase poverty. In their class warfare, the Government have no right to appeal to the spirit of Dunkirk.
  We were all touched and deeply moved at the gifts made by Australia and New Zealand in reducing their sterling balances by.£30 million or £40 million for the sake of the dear old Motherland, now in the mess and muddle into which she seems to them to have been thrown. But it was unpleasant to feel that this aid from our children from across the ocean was little more than half of the money racketed away by the postwar Army in Germany—£58 million in what the Secretary of State for War complacently called a "merry
  1350
  game" with N.A.A.F.I. cigarettes, marks and sterling. That is the simplest test, and to some extent the measure, of the demoralisation which "Socialism in our own time," for all the honourable wishes and intentions of its votaries, and for all their Pharisaical sneers at an honest profit motive—that is the measure of the kind of degeneration it has brought upon our decent people.
  Are there not other needless squanderings and leakages of our life's strength? Is it true that, throughout this winter, nearly one-third of the total capacity of the electric generating production industry has been engaged on export orders? Is it wise, when our whole export programme is cramped through the shortage of generating equipment and of coal, that we should try to boost the export figures in this way? What is the truth about the export of this electric generating equipment and mining machinery at this time above all others? What was the quantity of this vital apparatus exported last year? What was its value? Where did it go? And what did we receive in exchange? The President of the Board of Trade told us that it was particularly for Russia. What then did we receive in exchange? [Interruption.] I took the trouble to look it up.
  Sir S. Cripps: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me? I said that in the early stages during the war, we were having to manufacture a lot for Russia.
  Mr. Churchill: None went to Russia last year? Is that so?
  Sir S. Cripps Sir S. Cripps indicated assent.
  Mr. Churchill: I shall, then, not press my inquiry. But a very proper inquiry to make is, what did we get back in return for what was sent? Or when are we going to get it back? Are we going to get back any of the railway sleepers of which Russia has so many? The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the early days of the war. Have we been repaid anything, or have we given it?
  Sir S. Cripps: The right hon. Gentleman asks questions about current manufacture. That is being paid for in the ordinary way. He knows all about these things.
  Mr. Churchill: What I feel is this—and I shall look at it from this point and that point, and hon. Members ought to do the

  1351
  same. The 45 million who live in these islands cannot bear everything on their threadbare shoulders. None gave so freely from the beginning to the end of the war as we did. Now, in our exhaustion, we cannot be blood donors to every part of the world. Surely, there ought to be some sense of national self-preservation in the hearts of our rulers.
  I read with interest, and not without surprise, paragraph 9 of the White Paper. The House, no doubt, has it in mind. The point that struck me was this:
  "Our methods of economic planning must have regard to our special economic conditions. Our present industrial system is the result of well over a century's steady growth, and is of a very complex nature. The decisions which determine production are dispersed among thousands of organisations and individuals. The public is accustomed to a wide range of choice and quality in what it buys. Above all, our national existence depends upon imports, which means that the goods we export in return must compete with the rest of the world in price, quality and design, and that our industry must adapt itself rapidly to changes in world markets."
  The Leader of the Liberal Party must have been very pleased at this. It carries us back to the old days of Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill. It carries us back to the periods when the laws of supply and demand had some validity, and when the qualities of free enterprise, hard work, thrift, contrivance, and good housekeeping were said to be the sources of national wealth. This paragraph 9 of the Government White
  Paper might have been conceived by
  Mr. Gladstone or Mr. Bright. It might have been in the clear-cut language of Herbert Henry Asquith, in the days when the calm lamp of Liberal wisdom shed its refulgent gleam upon a happier world. I wonder who was the civil servant who wrote this for his Socialist masters. Out of the 2,000,000 we have at present, he should be the last one to be sacked. What is the meaning of this death-bed confession? It is the recognition that the life of this island people of 47 million cannot be maintained under the Socialist system. It is a confession that not only have we been deeply injured by all the Government's neglects and mismanagement of our ordinary daily affairs, but that the Socialist dream or the Socialist nightmare—which you will—for which so much of our great prosperity has been sacrificed, is false and foolish, and that it would not enable our present num-
  1352
  hers of people to inhabit this island or maintain the standard of life to which we have hitherto attained. Why, then, with a situation so complex, throw a series of nationalising spanners into this indispensable system, which is the "steady growth of well over a century"? Why do it wantonly at a time when external facts are so adverse, and all the resources so scarce?
  Let me put this case in more general terms. In most cases, management by private enterprise is not only more efficient, but far less costly to the wage-earners, than management by the huge official staffs now quartered upon the producers. Let every man now ask himself this: Is it the interest of the wage-earners to serve an all-powerful employer—the State—or to deal with private employers, who, though more efficient in business, are in a far weaker position as masters? Is it the interest of the housewife to queue up before officials at public distribution centres, as Socialism logically involves, or to go as a customer to a private shopkeeper, whose livelihood depends on giving good and friendly service to his customers? Of course, the State must have its plan and its policy. The first object of this plan should be to liberate and encourage the natural, native energies, genius and contrivance of our race, which, by a prodigy, have built up this vast population in our small island, and built up a standard of living which, before the war, was the envy of every country in Europe. The first object, then, is to liberate these energies; the second stage is to guide and aid all the forces that these native energies generate into the right channels. The Government have begun the wrong way round. They have started with control for control's sake on the theory of levelling down to the weakest and least productive types, and thus they have cramped and fettered the life-thrust of British society. I have assembled and cited all these examples of the foolish misdeeds of the Government as an explanation and justification of why we have no confidence in them, and why we regard their continuance in office as a growing growing national disaster.
  If I turn to the future, it is only for a moment. In considering the future, one is on much less certain ground, first of all, because we do not know all the facts, and it is foolish to prophesy unless they

  1353
  are known, and, secondly, because it is always difficult to strike the true note between giving a necessary warning and spreading despondency and alarm. I do not wish to emphasise unduly the various degrees and forms in which the crisis will present itself to us in the next 12 months. In the White Paper, the Government have certainly gone a long way in indicating some of our principal dangers and have not shrunk from confessing that much of what they have been teaching all these years to the wage-earning masses is false, or that the great hopes they encouraged and the promises they made at the General Election are falser still.
  One thing appears to me to be perfectly clear. The Government cannot save the country and carry on the class warfare and a Socialist programme of nationalisation at the same time. They must choose between the two. Either they must go down in a measureless crash with their party flags nailed stoutly to the mast, and carry our country down too, or they must make an effort by dropping their Socialist legislation, by freeing industry and enterprise from the trammels in which they have entangled them, and by restoring, at the earliest date, the outraged sense of national unity, to get out of the troubles in which we are. That is their choice, and their only choice. We have not the power to control their decision. The choice is theirs, but on it our fate depends. Whatever they decide, we shall do our best to minimise the evils they have wrought. We shall inculcate obedience to their decrees wherever these affect the national safety or well-being, even though we dissociate ourselves from all responsibility for the ruin now facing the land.
  We do not desire a Coalition. We do not grudge the Ministers their offices, and certainly not their cares. Nevertheless, we must earnestly hope that the Prime Minister and his principal colleagues will take the right turning at this grave moment in British history. The speech which the right hon. Gentleman made at Hanley to win party cheers on 15th February was ominous. It was not up to the level of events, nor was it worthy of the hour. I trust that tonight he will have the courage to strike a truer note of national leadership, and one more worthy of his wartime record in both the wars.
  I have two convictions in my heart. One is that, somehow or other, we shall
  1354
  survive, though for a time at a lower level than hitherto. The late Lord Fisher used to say "Britain never succumbs". The second is that things are going to get worse before they are better. Before the glowing promises, by which the wearied and unthinking people were seduced at the General Election, have been atoned for, all of us, wherever we sit, will have much to endure. We are bound to give the warning while the time remains. It is right to arouse our people to the peril in which they stand. Only when they realise fully the decline and descent, psychological, social, financial and economic, into which we have fallen, and, in part, been thrust, since our glorious victory, will those forces arise in the land in which redemption and recovery can be found.
  4.50 p.m.
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): We have had a very brilliant Parliamentary performance by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, but. I am bound to say, a most unconvincing one. We must now get down to the issues which divide us. This Amendment is intended by the right hon. Gentleman as a Vote of Censure on His Majesty's Government. He means it: we accept the challenge. It is an attempt by the right hon. Gentleman to consolidate the serried ranks of his followers who dash hither and thither, without, so far as we have been able to find out, any objective. He is trying to rally his supporters, not on constructive proposals, but on their common hatred of the Labour Party. And let it be said that the right hon. Gentleman has far more interest in the political situation than in the economic situation. He does not like the political set-up, and, quite frankly, his object today—and I think it is perfectly obvious to everybody who has heard him—is to try to discredit it. I assure him now that the Division tonight will show that the Government, in pursuing their General Election policy, have behind them the unanimous support of their followers. I hope that hon. Members will look at the Division list in HANSARD tomorrow morning. The right hon. Gentleman has really done us a good service, in healing one or two little breaches which have recently appeared.
  Let the right hon. Gentleman appreciate what he has done in his Amendment now before the House. He has rejected all the

  1355
  operative words of the Government Motion. There were three main points in that Motion. One was that this House welcomes the "Economic Survey for 1947." It asked the House to agree to support the Government in all practical measures to deal with our problem
  "in co-operation with all sections of the people of the country…"
  It asked for co-operation in order—I quote again—
  "to make secure the foundations of our industry so as to provide a high standard of living for out people."
  In his Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, while agreeing to welcome the laying before Parliament of the "Economic Survey for 1947 "—the opening words of our Motion—goes on to say that he regrets that the full facts of the situation have for so long been withheld from the country. The whole facts of the economic situation of this country have never been put before it up to now. Our people have lived in a fool's paradise. High financial transactions have been conducted behind closed doors, and the full facts of the industrial, economic situation have never been known. I regret, much as the right hon. Gentleman regrets, that the full facts of the situation have, for so long, been withheld from the country. When did any Government in this country come so frankly to the House, and to the public, and put the grim economic facts before them? When has that happened before? Would a Tory Government have had the courage to do it? They would have hidden themselves behind clouds of words, and behind a spate of oratory from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. They would have covered up everything they could. Let it be said, to our credit, that we have "come clean," and told the people. Supposing that an adventurous Conservative Government had had the courage to tell the truth about things, would it have been in a position to hold out reasonable hopes to the people of this country of anything but jam in the far distant future, based on the fantastic and completely unrealistic hopes of the maintenance of the capitalist system? I think it is fantastic.
  Secondly, we appeal in our Motion for co-operation with all sections of our people to aid in the solution of our diffi-
  1356
  culties. That is rejected by the
  Opposition; they propose to cut out those words. Is it their view that, should they succeed in defeating us—which is very unlikely—and if they gained the very temporary support of the people of this country—which is just as unlikely—they could proceed to put matters right without such co-operation? Is this point about co-operation with all sections on which emphasis has been put from these benches turned down? It obviously is. The words are excluded from our Motion by the Amendment. What is it then that hon. Members want? Totalitarianism in industry? Is that their case? Or is it the bread line and unemployment, with which to compel submission? They turn down co-operation. Therefore, it must be either the policy of totalitarianism or the policy of the bread line. I defy them to put up any answer to that question.
  Or is it that they are very anxious about political co-operation? The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition laid his hand on his heart, when he spoke about the outbreak of party politics. I think there were about six references in his speech, all pointing to the desirability of a new Coalition Government, with himself as Prime Minister. At the end of his speech, he said he did not want any Coalition. Well, as far as we are concerned, he is not going to get one. Political co-operation in war is one thing; political co-operation, when building a peace after a world war, depends upon the policy of a body of men who are fundamentally agreed in their political faith. That is what we are trying to do.
  The third part of our Motion is cut out by the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. It is the part in which we ask for co-operation to secure the foundations of industry so as to provide a high standard of living for our people. Am I to understand that hon. Members opposite are not concerned about the standard of life of our people? That concern is
  exclusively repudiated by them. They have cut those words out of the Motion, and they have included other words. In his Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman has withdrawn his support from propositions which, I thought, would have been generally agreed by the House. I imagine that he will live to regret the day that he ever lent himself to a proposal excluding from this Motion the con-

  1357
  struclive parts, without which this country cannot live. Instead of being helpful, the right hon. Gentleman came down flat-footed in favour of an unqualified Motion of Censure, which he supported with great cogency and force, and with great rhetoric, in his speech this afternoon. The right hon. Gentleman wishes to prove in the Division Lobby tonight that the House
  "has no confidence in a Government whose actions hitherto have served only to aggravate the national difficulties and whose proposals for the future are either inadequate or injurious."
  Let me examine those two statements; they are very interesting. In what way have we aggravated the national difficulties? I was not impressed, and nor, I think, were my hon. and right hon. Friends, by the excursion which the Leader of the Opposition made into the field of economics. I like to hear the right hon. Gentleman speaking on politics, but I am afraid he is a very weak brother in the economic field. How were these difficulties from which we are suffering created? I leave aside for the moment, although I will return to it presently, the question of the cruel instability of the capitalist system, with its recurrent periods of depression and unemployment, its disregard of human considerations, and its ruthless exploitation of national resources for financial gain.
  Leaving that aside for the moment, our national difficulties, which are only part of the world's difficulties, arise directly from the catastrophic economic effects of the second world war. It is true that in the West we did not suffer such grievous human losses in the last war as we did in the first world war, but the strain on the economic resources of mankind was far greater than it was during the period 1914–18. I need not enlarge on that matter, but I would point out that the old system, the system before the first
  world war, suffered a shattering blow from which it has never really recovered. In the second world war, our survival, the survival of liberty, and victory, were rendered possible only by the most drastic changes in the organisation and purpose of our economic system. My submission is that the structure of our economic life, and that of other countries, was fundamentally changed by the two world wars, and that it cannot be restored to meet the tests of reconstruction
  1358
  and to fulfil the hopes for the future set out in the Atlantic Charter, to which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was party, and indeed, of which he was part author.
  I cannot see how a Conservative Government would, in 18 or 19 months, have successfully grappled with the problem of the breakdown of the old system. They could not have re-established the old system, and they would not have tried to begin to build a new one in harmony with modern needs. Therefore, I think it is just as well that we have inherited this difficult period rather than the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and his friends. Apart from these broad, wide considerations, there is the battle with the weather. There appear to be two views about this problem. The first is that it is a divine punishment on our people, and indeed, on other peoples on the Continent, for having lived to see a Labour Government in this country.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Who said that?
  Mr. Greenwood: It is a view which hon. Members opposite hold. The second view is that had there been a bold, efficient and vigorous Conservative Government, the ills from which we are suffering today, and from which we have suffered, would, in ways which have not yet been disclosed from the benches opposite, have been avoided—including the recent long spell of bad weather. This is just wishful thinking on the part of hon. Members opposite. Let us suppose the worst. Let us suppose that a Conservative Government had been returned in July, 1945. Would coal output have risen last year? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Would such superhuman efforts have been made by the miners, by the railway and other transport workers, by dockers, and by the merchant seamen in the little colliers? Would those efforts have been made in response to an appeal by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in peace time? The answer is, "No."
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: Not even if the country needed it?
  Mr. Greenwood: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will try to explain why. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman realises the part which organised labour had to play, and did play, in the second

  1359
  world war; but his own past, before the first great war, in the trade union field, his tragic determination, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, to restore the Gold Standard, which precipitated the General Strike of 1926, the part which the right hon. Gentleman played in that struggle, his bitter and unrelenting efforts to shackle and crush the rightful aspirations of the industrial labour movement by the 1927 Act—these hard facts in his life did not mark out the right hon. Gentleman as a trusted democratic leader in the days following the second world war, a war in which he played so noble a part. Our thanks will always be gratefully given to the right hon. Gentleman for that, but as a peace leader his history is not such that the common people of this country would have trusted him. Therefore, the truth is that, had the Labour Party not been victorious in the summer of 1945—and the results of the General Election were not really so big a surprise to some people as they were to the right hon. Gentleman—this country would have lacked trusted leadership. Hon. Members opposite may not like some of us very much, but at least we can match man for man in the confidence we have from the rank and file of the people with anybody on the other side of the House.
  The White Paper, which many people have talked about, but not everybody has studied with very great care, analyses the situation which arises from the flagrant shortcomings of the capitalist system over generations, accruing liabilities which started long before the first world war, the revolutionary effects of the last world war and the first world war on our economic system, the position in the world as regards shortages of vital materials, and so on, and then at the last hour, afflicted as we were by winter storms, we took account of what were the inescapable results of a long and hard winter.
  The Leader of the Opposition, and perhaps some of his followers—I think he has got a rather doubtful body of followers behind him—think that the right hon. Gentleman as Prime Minister would be the country's fairy godmother, who, by a wave of the wand, would disperse all the economic miasma which has settled on the world, get rid of the snow and the ice, and bring the warm sun and the glow of a new prosperity. That view is nonsensical,
  1360
  and hon. Gentlemen opposite must know that that is so. The country is quite clear about it. This is not a new conflict. Ever since the Labour Party was established the people have known that we were a Socialist party. We are not ashamed of being a Socialist party. The word "Socialism" tastes nicer in the mouth than that ugly, hard and barren word, "individualism." The idea that we have no plan is absurd. Of course we have a plan. The trouble is that we are putting it into operation, and hon. Members do not like it. Where is the plan of right hon. Gentlemen opposite? I understand that there is some very high-powered official committee of the party, but there are also other people, unofficial, and there is no policy there.
  What is our policy? Our policy is a definite policy of obtaining for the people of this country equality of opportunity, to which they are entitled in any democratic system, and a reasonable and rising standard of life, under condtions which are honourable to them as citizens, as parents, as workers and as individuals. We say that we cannot do it under this crazy old system which the right hon. Gentleman talks about and which had always lived on margins. When the right hon. Gentleman talks about the promises we made during the General Election, I would say that if he will read "Let us Face the Future "—it is in quite simple language, and would not give him half an hour's real trouble—he will find that we stated there explicitly that we were not offering the world on a plate to the people. We did point that out—my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the President of the Board of Trade pointed it out. They were different from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, who exuded more heat than light on the subject. We have never tried to mislead the people. Why should we try to mislead the people? We are born of the people, most of us; we have lived our lives among them. My life is a part of the lives of the old members of my party. If the people arc misled, they are misled by people who
  never understood what the life of ordinary working class people is. We do not mislead them. Now, after 50 years of struggle in the political field, we have by fair means won political power, starting with almost every man's hand against us. The Tory Party and the Liberal Party have always known what our policy was. We are executing

  1361
  it. We are to be trusted, within the five year programme, to adapt and to insert measures which in our judgment should be included in the five years work we have to do. That is the realistic view.
  The Leader of the Opposition spoke about my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence being aggressive, and so on. I can never keep up with the right hon. Gentleman's adjectives, they are wonderful—"scorn," "hatred," "odious," "partisan." I think he referred to an "aggressive party attack" from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. I think he used the words "scorn" and "hatred" about it. Whatever may be said about my right hon. Friend, hatred is not one of his personal defects—not that I have noticed, having known him for a long period of years. Who started this aggressive policy? What is all this talk about class Government and a class war, which the right hon. Gentleman has referred to on several occasions this afternoon? Who started it? Hon. Members opposite started it, and they waged it. I should have thought that their attitude a week last Monday in the House, when nobody on that side wanted to listen to me, disclosed their intentions. They mean, so far as they can, to prevent our programme being put on the Statute Book. I assure them they are not going to succeed. Then, because my right hon. Friend, quite rightly, made a few gentle remarks about the Opposition last night, here the Leader of the Opposition comes down in a state of high dudgeon, showing a certain amount of indignation which I am quite sure he cannot feel in his heart.
  That is what this Debate is about. This Debate is not about the economic situation. This Debate is to enable the right hon. Gentleman to pull his people together—God knows, they need it—in the hope that he will get the country behind him with a view to defeating the further progress of this Government. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that he is taking the wrong line. We can have our own differences, as indeed the other party has its differences, but on an issue of this kind this party stands solid. There can be no challenge about that. We shall continue to stand solid. We shall play the Parliamentary game fairly; we shall do what we think is right in the interests of good and adequate Debate, but we shall not be deflected from our purpose and when, in
  1362
  a few hours' time, we go into the Division Lobby, I hope the Opposition will realise the strength and unity of this party.
  5.18 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: I have listened closely, as the whole House listened, to the speech which has just been delivered by the Lord Privy Seal. From start to finish it did not refer to the crisis which we are discussing. It answered no single question that has been asked throughout the whole course of the Debate, on either side of the House, and it indicated no line of action for the future. In those circumstances it is an extremely difficult speech to reply to. I think the best I can do is to leave it where it rests.
  As the Amendment or Motion of Censure
  which I seek to support refers in its concluding passage to the actions, or lack of actions, proposed by the Socialist Government for the future, it is on that aspect of the matter that I want to speak. I am not particularly concerned about who got us into this mess, and I am certainly not concerned to argue about it this afternoon. But I am very much concerned, and I believe the country is very much concerned, about how we are going to get out of this mess, and it is to that aspect of the matter that I want to address my remarks. I will leave to other hon. Members the job of comparing the past Socialist promises with the present Socialist performances. I do so, not from any affection or tenderness for the party opposite, but because I believe that we are discussing something which is a great deal more important even than the future of the Socialist Party, and that is the future of this country.
  My first criticism of His Majesty's Government is not of their past record or of the mistakes which they have made. All Governments make mistakes. I recognise that. We are concerned about what action they are going to take for the future. During this Debate a devastating indictment of their industrial, financial and economic policies has been delivered, and that indictment has, in the main, in no way been answered. I want to say how I think the matter should be tackled. If one tries to deal with the future in these Debates, one is bound to say things which may be used against one. I shall say things which may be used against me in Debate or against my party in the country, but knowing that

  1363
  will not deter me from saying them. If hon. Members opposite, and some on the back benches, would spend more time giving us the truth as they see it—and many of them actually do see it—and less time in worrying whether by saying the truth they might lay themselves open to attack by the Tories, we might get a great deal further. I understand that there is a great deal of freedom and frankness in their party committee. I wish that some freedom and frankness could be exhibited by them on the Floor of this House.
  I recognise that the failure of which we are all today spectators is more than the failure of the Minister of Fuel and Power. It is much more than that. It is in part, at any rate, the failure not simply of the Socialist Government or of a Socialist Minister; it is in part the failure of a nation. For too long all of us in this country, of all parties, have had the idea—sponsored sometimes, I must say, by the propaganda of hon. Gentlemen opposite—that there was some easy way of recovery and that we could pull ourselves out of our difficulties without too much hard work or too many new ideas, or without abandoning too much of our party doctrine—to whichever party we belonged—or abandoning too much of the cherished industrial traditions upon both sides of industry. The country was wrong in holding that idea. It is held much too widely today. It will go on being held until it is made clear who, in fact, is governing the country.
  Why was it that, a year ago, the President of the Board of Trade said that it was a wholly impracticable suggestion to introduce foreign workers into this country? That was the view of the President of the Board of Trade a year ago. Why was it that Polish miners were not introduced into the pits last summer when they might have been able to produce more coal? Why was it that the wage question was not adequately tackled? It seems to me that the reason for these things is that the Government are afraid on this issue of facing either the trade unions, the shop stewards, or some of the hundreds of thousands of men many of whom voted for the Government at the last Election. In many respects, strike action or the fear of strike action has become the substitute for policy. The pressure of industrial groups has taken on the rôle which ought
  1364
  to be discharged by Parliamentary majorities. These things need to be said. It is necessary to determine in the near future who is governing the country. Is it the trade union movement? Is it the Mineworkers Federation, or the Federation of British Industries, or the shop stewards; or a combination of the lot? Is it His Majesty's Government? I am quite clear who it should be. It should be His Majesty's Government, and the country looks to the Government to do it.
  Now I would say a few words about the task ahead. The most frightening thing which
  I detect in the White Paper is not a note of warning; it is a note of complacency. If one looks at paragraphs 3 and 59, one observes that the Government claim what they call "a high level of industrial activity." When one examines the facts upon which that claim is based, one sees a really horrifying situation. Take the men who are in munitions at the present time. There are half a million men making munitions still for a million and a half in the Forces. I quite agree that the Minister of Defence last night, interpolating between a certain amount of talk on Munich and other irrelevant issues, tried to whittle down that figure, but I want to know what are those half million men making? Can we be informed at some stage of this Debate?
  What about exports? The Government claim that we are now exporting 110 per cent. or 115 per cent. in volume over 1938. I should like to have the attention of the Lord Privy Seal for a moment. I want to ask whether that figure includes, as I believe it does, the export of war stores. Can we have an answer to my question? If it does, how is it that a million and a half men are making rather less in exports than a million men made for the war? Why is it that it is taking three men to do the job which two men did before the war? Is that what His Majesty's Government regard as a high level of industrial activity?
  Take the question of re-equipment and maintenance. The Government pride themselves in the White Paper that a normal year's re-equipment was done in 1946, and that that will be increased by 15 per cent. in 1947. My right hon. Friend the senior Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan) pointed out that that was rather an inadequate arrangement. The Government thought

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  it over during the night, and came to the conclusion that he was right. What sort of planning is it that treats the industrial re-equipment of this country as a figure which they can change about over night? What is the plan for mechanising and re-equipping the whole of our industry? Have the Government any idea of the amount they will allocate to that important task over the next 10 years? I am not going to venture a prophecy, but I have seen estimates which ranged between £2,000 million and £5,000 million, to be spent over 10 years. Is the figure which the Government contemplate anywhere near the right figure?
  Why is it that in the metal and engineering industry there are 600,000 more men, who are only doing a normal prewar year's work in maintenance and re-equipment? Why in that industry, as in others, is it taking more men to do a job which fewer men did before? There is just one further word on the question of the high level of industrial activity. At least one Member on the opposite side yesterday suggested that a tribute should be paid to the coal miners for the way in which many of them behaved during the recent crisis. I quite agree. I heard of the case of a man who fought his way to the pit and died of heart failure. I am not going to detract from one word of that praise. The miners are entitled, however, to the truth, and the country is entitled to the truth, and the truth is that, man for man, with more machinery, each miner is producing 50 tons a year less than he was producing before the war. That is the truth of the matter. It is no good trying to get out of it.
  Mrs. Nichol: The hon. Member has given only half the truth. He has left out a very important thing—the age group of the men who are in industry at present, as compared with those who were in industry before the war.
  Mr. Thorneyeroft: I have heard that argument before. [interruption.] The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) spends so much time talk-in this House, that he might allow other hon. Members to make their speeches without intervening. The hon. Lady put a perfectly fair point. The age group in this country is far below that in the U.S.A., and they are certainly producing more coal there. I have dealt with the facts, and if that is what the Government
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  call "a high level of industrial activity," there is very little hope indeed of this country pulling out of its difficulties. If my figures are right, as I believe they are, on the export side it will take not a 25 per cent. increase in productivity but an 80 per cent. increase to get the exports which the Government require.
  That was the picture presented in the White Paper. In any event, it was presented before the crisis developed. The picture now, of course, is infinitely worse. The coal crisis was bad enough, but the Government themselves admit that the effects of the coal crisis will not be anything like as bad as the probable effects of a dollar crisis before we are very much older. That is the situation which confronts us. What are the Government going to do about it? I hope that someone on the Government side will give an answer to that question before the Debate is ended. I will not talk about their long-term policy except to say that I read Part I of the White Paper with interest. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) that one might have been reading any of the admirable policy statements produced by the Liberal Party—not in recent years, I should have said. One might have been reading "Design for Freedom," or any of the Conservative Party publications, the publication, for instance, called "Work," written by Mr. Henry Brooke, before the war. All I say to the Government is that they must make up their minds whether they intend in future to adopt Part I of the White Paper as their policy, which means making the capitalist system work, or whether they are to adopt the Socialist policy. Of course, the two are quite different. If they are going ahead with Part I of the White Paper, to keep capitalism in this country, and all the machinery of the compulsory system and profit motive, or if they are going to adopt Socialism as their policy, they should let us know. We have had so far somewhat divergent views from the Front Bench.
  It is not a long-term policy that matters now; it is a short-term policy. What are we to do now? That is what the country wants to know from the Government. Anything which the Government do is bound to he unpalatable, and bound, in many respects, to cut across some of the principles of Socialism. It is bound to meat the abandonment of some of the

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  promises made at the General Election. I think that the country expects unpalatable things to be said, but they would prefer the truth, and they would prefer to know it now. The Government have told the truth about the existing facts; what the country wants is the truth about the action to be taken upon the facts. They want an answer to this problem, and they do not mind whether it cuts across the principles of Socialism or Liberalism or those of any other party. They want an answer, and, so far as abandoning promises is concerned, I do not think that the country expects the Socialist Government to keep their promises.
  Let me say what I think the answers ought to be. I think that the prerequisite is a sound financial policy. I think that unless we get that, none of the other things will work at all. The Government admit a gap of £1,000 million between the goods we are producing and the money we are spending. What are the Government going to do about it? We have not had an answer. We have had speech after speech from this side of the House, notably two brilliant speeches yesterday, one from the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) and the other from the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles). No answer has been given to those speeches. When I saw the Lord Privy Seal get up today, I thought that he was going to answer them. I realise that the Minister of Defence did not know how to answer them last night, or did not intend to, but I expected the Lord Privy Seal had been furnished overnight with a few replies. I must have been over-optimistic for no reply came.
  I realise that in tackling the matter of inflation, we have to do tough and unpleasant things, which means reducing expenditure upon Government account. Are they prepared to do that; if they are, will they get up and say so? I know that it means a sharp increase in indirect taxation. No one likes that, but I think that it ought to be done. Will any hon. Member on the other side of the House get up and say that it ought to be done, because the country wants to know what the Socialist Party want, and where it stands in this matter? Above all, I think it means that, quite apart from the merits of nationalisation, we cannot go on churning out bits of paper called Govern-
  1368
  ment bonds and distributing them in exchange for fixed assets. That does not rule out the principle of nationalisation, but it does mean that we shall have to slow down the process, for financial reasons.
  I know that the Lord Privy Seal has fought for Socialism all his life, very hard and well, and generally very fairly. I would assure him of this. If the Lord Privy Seal, or better still the Prime Minister, would get up at this moment and say that they still believe in Socialism, but they realise that they will not be able to do what they stated in the White Paper, because they want to put first things first, and they intend to drop nationalisation of the roads or of electricity—if he said that, I do not believe that his party would lose a single vote in the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I do not expect hon. Members to take my advice, but I am at least free to tender it.
  The financial policy is not the end of this matter. This is a human, material problem as well. I am not going to talk at length about coal. Plenty has been said about coal already, but I want an answer to the question which has been asked many times: Are the Government prepared to buy coal? Can we be assured that, before this Debate ends, we shall have an answer to that question? Five million or ten million tons of coal might make all the difference between success and failure in getting through the difficult 12 months ahead. For Heaven's sake do not let us prejudice our chances, for another five million tons of coal. We have done it once; do not let us fail a second time.
  As to manpower, the British worker should be considered first. A 5 per cent. increase in output would equal more than three times the output of all the disabled persons we could get from the British zone in Germany. What will be done about that? The Government say in the White Paper that restrictive practices exist in the trade union movement on the employers' side. Is it now accepted by hon. Members opposite that restrictive practices do exist in the unions? I see that one hon. Member last night tried to challenge that contention. If anyone wishes to deny that restrictive practices exist, or if anyone disagrees with the White Paper, let him say so. We should make some progress by getting on record that these

  1369
  practices do go on, and are restricting output at the very moment when output is vital to this country.
  Mr. Palmer: On both sides of industry?
  Mr. Thorneycroft: Sweeping away the facts is always a very useful thing to do in argument. We agree then about both sides of industry, but what are we prepared to do about it? What are the Government going to do about it? It is not enough to put it in a White Paper and politely regret it. Are they prepared to have a public inquiry, into the dockworkers' industry and into the lamp rings? [HON. MEMBERS: "Are you?"] Yes, and I would carry every Member on this side of the House with me in saying, that a full public inquiry should be conducted as soon as and early as possible into the restrictive practices both in the dock world and in the lamp rings. I do not think that a single Member of my party would dissent from that. That is a fair, honest and open thing to suggest. Are the Government prepared to accept it? Can I have an answer to that before the Debate concludes?
  I want to say a few words on the question of foreign labour. I think what is wanted is a clear cut decision whether these foreign men are coming in or not. I must say this, and I say it almost in parenthesis, that a great human problem is involved in this matter. There are thousands of displaced persons not only in the British but in the American zone of Germany without homes and without hope. Are they to be left there in the conditions under which some of them are living today, faced with the kind of futures which they can anticipate? I choose my words carefully when I say that history may judge that the gas chamber was the finer method of the two. There is a deep human problem in the case of these displaced persons. I have always pleaded and urged, as have some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House such as the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) and the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) as well as Members from the other side of the House, that some of these men should be brought in. I only want to say this: Bring them in, but do not let the Minister of Labour think that he can do any good by screening them. They
  have been screened by the Russian
  1370
  security police and by the Gestapo, and many of them owe their lives to the fact that they avoided the results of the screening by the Gestapo. If they have escaped the Gestapo and the Russian security police, is it likely that the Minister of Labour will succeed?
  On this question of manpower I want to say a word about the Army. I am not asking that it should be cut down or that it should be increased. I have not enough information to speak on that. Only the Government and the Chiefs of Staff have that information. But I can say this that in war, in times of great emergency, the Army was used upon productive work, particularly in agriculture. In this year of 1947 we are going to have our backs to the wall as regards this matter. We need every man we can get. Agriculture is short by 33,000 men. The Army has got the men trained. Such units as the Royal Engineers can do any job, and they can build their own accommodation. Are we going to have a ruling that the emergency is so grave that the Government intend and the Chiefs of Staff intend to put productive work particularly in agriculture above technical training for this year? I think that that is a fair and possible solution, and it does not affect the size of the Armed Forces.
  On the question of wages I say this. I know the difficulty of this wage question. I know that Government after Government have made appeals that wage rates should be related to production. I know it is true today that if we try to pay a building operative a bonus for piecework, we are practically certain to promote a strike. I know, too, if a body of workers comes along and asks for higher wages and a shorter working week, though it is unrelated to production, they are quite likely to get it. I know it is an extremely difficult subject to tackle, but I believe that the Government will be compelled to tackle it. I do not believe that it will be possible to allow that situation to drift.
  I know that there are hundreds, indeed thousands, of members in the trade union movement, who risk their position, their popularity and all they have, in order to try to make some sense out of this policy, and to stand up against the demands and the pressure extended against them. I am not talking of those men. They are not heard of. They are some of the heroes of this situation. I know what happens to

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  them; they keep hold of their position only for a few months. Then an industry clown the road, does not succeed in holding the position and the whole circle starts. The other factory demands and gets a 42 hour week and the others get it too. How is it going to be met? A nine months' moratorium on national increases of wage rates would do more than anything else to give the Government a breathing space at the present time. I know it and they know it. I do not believe that it is beyond the wit of man to reach an agreement with the trade unions on that point. I believe that something of the sort has got to be done.
  But what have we got? Have they, in fact, faced up to these things? I listened to the whole speech of the President of the Board of Trade opening this Debate—two hours of it and none too long for so great a subject. I thought it was summed up very well next day in the headlines of the newspapers, "Fuel rationing, trains cut, tobacco saved." That is a terrible commentary. Supposing these headlines had read, "Britain to buy coal, the transport industry to be free to get on with the job, and a 200 per cent. tax upon tobacco tomorrow morning." The British people would, at least, know that the British Government for once meant business.
  I do not misjudge the temper of the British people. I realise that somewhere or other in politics, no matter to which party one belongs, one has to make up one's mind about a fundamental issue, and that is the issue of whether we are a great nation or a small one. There are plenty of people who think in their hearts—they do not say it—that this country is somewhere near finished. They think that two world wars have proved too much for a small island of 47 million people. If anyone thinks that then for Heaven's sake do not bring any more workers into the country. Encourage emigration. At the present time I think the Government are doing both. These people look forward to a time when our foreign trade will be circumscribed in narrow channels. We must accept the fact that we cannot afford to pay for the tobacco we are getting from America. Some people would say that for all time we must live in that sort of a way. They see Great Britain like an old man creeping about the streets selling trifles a little
  1372
  above their cost, which are bought by those who remember him in the days of his greatness and prosperity and do not wish to see him perish in the workhouse. That is not my idea. I think we are a great nation and I think we are going to be a greater one. But if we are and if that is the view of this Government then let them tell the British people the truth not about the facts of the situation—because they are learning those now, and I am afraid are going to learn them even more clearly in the future—but about the harsh, unpalatable actions that have to be taken.
  Let us get the men, and if necessary rip out restrictive practices, whether they be on the side of big business or on the side of trade unions. This question has been funked too much on all sides of the House of Commons. Let us face it and see if we can get rid of it, and make the supreme effort which is necessary in order to maintain some balance in our Budget. I know that there is a conflict between balancing your Budget and incentives, but if I had to choose—and I think, broadly, that one has to choose in these matters—I would say that the future of this country and its best hope lie more in the direction of sweat and tears, and less in the direction of nylon stockings for the miners' wives. I think it is on this kind of choice that the Government have to make up their minds. As I say, I think we are a great nation, and I am certain that the Prime Minister has a great opportunity—one of the greatest opportunities that has been extended to any Prime Minister in recent years.
  After all, anybody can govern England when all is going well. Anybody can stand at that Despatch Box and, with a few tricks of oratory, describe a great series of victories or triumphs. It takes a statesman to stand there and describe disaster and defeat, and yet bring the people with him to new adventures. We had such a statesman once. The Prime Minister is to reply tonight. I say that I think he has a great opportunity if he will rise above the issues which have divided these parties in the past, and if he will not be afraid of telling the full truth of the situation to the people. If he will do that, I wish him well. I say that with all my heart, even though I know that if he had the courage, he and his party would govern England for many years to come. I hope he will, but if he

  1373
  will not, or dare not, then let him and his party go and make room for those who will.
  5.52 p.m.
  Miss Colman: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) into party politics, but to put three points to the Government as briefly as I can. It is very clear from the White Paper which is
  before the House and from the Debate which has taken place that the centre of our problems is our trade balance. If we are to pay our way as a trading country we have not only to produce the goods, but we have to find markets for them. Perhaps it has not been made sufficiently clear what an enormous difference there is in our trade position today as compared with before the war. In the years between the wars, from 1924 to 1938, the excess of imports of merchandise over exports varied from £464 million in 1926 to £263 million in 1935. We had this enormous deficit in imports over exports which we were then able to make up as the result of our shipping services, our income from foreign investments, and so on.
  This year, we were told by the President of the Board of Trade on Monday, these invisible exports will amount to only £75 million. That means that, compared with before the war, we have practically to pay our way by exports of goods alone. As I said a moment ago, if we are to do that we have not only to produce goods, but to sell them, and we have to find markets for 140 per cent. over 1938. The three points which I want to put
  to the Government are these. First of all, are we being as ruthless as we should be in cutting imports? We read in the Press today, for instance, that caviar is being sold at ten guineas a pound, and we know quite well that expensive fruits are on sale in the shops and that we spend quite a lot each year in buying wine from abroad and so on. I am not suggesting that the total amount is large; it may be quite small. What I am suggesting is that the psychological effect of the fact that these goods are on sale in the shops is bad.
  I have had criticisms on these lines in my own constituency. People say, "If we are so short of shipping space and foreign exchange, why are we buying these luxury goods from abroad?" That
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  is the first thing I want to ask—that we should, as far as possible, cut down luxury imports such as I have mentioned. The second point I want to put is an obvious one but it seems to me that not very much time or attention has been given to it during this Debate. We must produce all we can in this country. I have in mind, particularly, shipping. The right hon. and gallant Member for North Newcastle (Sir C. Headlam) mentioned this yesterday. I also represent a Tyneside constituency, and I know that while the prospects in ship building and repairing are good during the next two or three years, we do not know what the position is going to be after that. There is already on Tyneside a very considerable anxiety lest, after those two or three years of full production, we may go back to the conditions of the years between the wars, when unemployment in ship building was up to 60 per cent., when many of the yards on Tyneside were idle, and when Shipbuilding Securities, Limited, were in control. We are afraid we may go back to that, but we are determined that we shall not. It depends largely, I think, on Government policy whether we do or not. What I want to ask is this.
  We know what the target is for 1947—one and a quarter million gross tons. We want to know what the prospects are beyond 1947. The ship building industry has suffered in the past and we want to be certain that we are not going back to the unemployment of the inter-war years, to the state of affairs when yards were closed down and many men put out of work. If we did we should not only be losing the work of a very important section of the people, but should find ourselves, as the White Paper points out, having to pay in foreign exchange for the carriage of our goods in foreign ships. From the point of view of employment and the saving of foreign exchange, which is vital to us, we must have all the ships we can and we do need to know from the Government much more definitely than we know so far the plans for the years after 1947.
  My second point, therefore, is: Are we making adequate plans to produce all we can of goods which we can produce at competitive rates? In particular, are we doing all we can in ship building to save our foreign exchange by not having to pay for the carriage of our goods in foreign ships? We have got to expand

  1375
  our labour force. That is obvious. We have to get into production everyone we can. But in this connection I am rather worried about the suggestion that married women with young children should be attracted into industry. The hon. Member for the Hulme Division of Manchester (Mr. Lee) took the line yesterday that women with young children should be persuaded to come back into industry, and that day nurseries should be provided for the purpose. I feel very strongly about this. We had to do it during the war, but we should not do it now. If we had used up all our labour power and if it was being employed in the most economical way, then, if we were driven to it, I would be prepared to agree to women with young children coming into industry.
  The fact is that at the moment there is waste of labour in producing luxury goods. and in providing luxury services, for example, in the more expensive shops and hotels. The first thing we have to do is to make sure that our manpower is used in the best and most economical way. One of our fundamental troubles is that the distribution of our labour is still related to the purchasing power of the people in the inter-war years, when there were great inequalities in the distribution of wealth. Things have changed today, and we should redistribute our labour force to meet this new distribution of our national income. That would give us economies in many directions, and it would give us a much better use of our manpower and womenpower.
  There is another aspect of this question of bringing women with young children into industry. I take the view that it is on a par with the question of the raising of the school-leaving age. The Government rightly state in the Economic Survey that:
  "The long-term loss to the nation would out-weigh the immediate gain from delaying the raising of the school leaving age. The education of children of this age suffered severely in the war, and their interests cannot be sacrificed."
  That was said in reply to those who thought the school-leaving age should not be raised at this time. I believe that women with young children should be at home looking after their children. We may derive an immediate advantage by bringing them into industry, but in the long run we shall lose, just as in the long
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  run we shall lose if we do not raise the school-leaving age. Further, if we bring these women back, day-nurseries will have to be provided. That means we shall have to find staff. For example, the staff ratio to the number of children in one city of great importance is one to three. That takes into account matrons, nurses, cleaners and so on, and one is required to every three children. Is it worth taking these people out of industry to look after the children so that their mothers can go out to work? I suggest that the net gain would be very small indeed. I am not suggesting for one moment that mothers should not be able to go to work if they wish. I believe in freedom of choice in the matter. What I am against is embarking upon a campaign, as has been suggested in a number of quarters, to persuade these women with young children to enter industry. In conclusion, I would tell the Government that the people of this country will respond to the great needs of the time on two conditions. They will respond, firstly, if they are quite certain that the burden, the austerity they have to endure for rather longer than was expected is equally shared, and, secondly, if the facts are put plainly to them, and in such a way that they can understand and appreciate them.
  6.8 p.m.
  Lady Megan Lloyd George: It is inevitable, I think, that on a Vote of Censure this third day's Debate on the Economic White Paper should have introduced an atmosphere of recrimination. I should like to follow the example of the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) and of the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Miss Colman) and return to the facts of the White Paper. As hon. Members have pointed out,
  and no one more forcibly than the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), the White Paper is out of date. It is out of date because it was prepared and was in the hand of the publishers before the fuel crisis developed to its full intensity. Another serious situation has since developed, one which may well upset many of the calculations that have been made in the White Paper, and that is in regard to the largest single item of our imports, food.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford said that the people of this country were undernourished. Great sections of the people of this country have

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  been undernourished for a great many years. I believe it is still in the realms of possibility that we may in the face of the facts have to reduce our present rations. I believe we are very much in the same position in regard to food as we were in regard to coal at the end of last summer, and that unless drastic measures are taken, and taken in time, we may blunder into a food crisis. The situation has obviously deteriorated during the last six weeks. The blizzard has decimated our livestock. It has been estimated that one-third of this country's spring and summer foods have been lost through the great freeze-up.
  Now these are hard facts which have to be faced. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade said, on Monday, that agriculture was to be given high priority as an import saver, and the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth has just said that we were not cutting down our imports ruthlessly enough in certain respects. But I think that it may well be that we shall not only not be in a position to cut down imports, but may have radically to increase our imports, particularly our food imports.
  There is another consideration to be taken into account. The blizzard conditions on the Continent will have affected the crop prospects in Europe, and the drain on the great wheat producing and stock raising countries of the world will be very great indeed this year. We shall, no doubt, have the facts later from the Minister of Food, but it looks from the newspapers as though, although he may have "talked turkey," he has come back with precious little else in his bag. There is, therefore, the possibility that we have to face a cut in rations, with all that that will mean. Throughout this Debate, and on every page of the White Paper, the vital importance of increasing output per man has been emphasised. Members on all sides have, rightly, pressed for increased rations for miners and agricultural workers. A cut in the present iron ration—for that is what it is—would have a serious effect on the health and morale of the people, and on the production of our workers. We have seen the effect it has had in the Ruhr, and in many other countries in Europe. This is a deficit which, I believe, must be made up in some way or other.
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  I would like to know very much what plans the Government have to meet this situation. Are we to meet this crisis with the same lack of preparedness as we did the coal crisis? The agricultural industry is very short of labour. Last year, crops were left rotting on the ground, because of the lack of labour. This year, we cannot afford to lose one sack of potatoes or one stook of corn. What will be the position? One hundred and seventy thousand German prisoners of war will be leaving the industry; they are going out at the rate of 15,000 per month, and that rate will be accelerated at the end of this year. The shortage will then become critical. I would, therefore, urge the Government to take two steps immediately to meet this situation before it is too late. First, that they should defer the call-up of agricultural workers; secondly, they should offer them some of the inducements that they are giving, and rightly giving, to the men who go down the pits. They should give them priority for housing in rural areas, in order to attract young men on to the land.
  There is another matter which is of vital importance, in face of the labour shortage. It is the question of machinery. Agricultural machinery has been exported from this country to the value of over £4 million in 1946. I am not sure that the figure is not even greater. Are these exports to continue while our own need is so desperate? Only a fortnight ago the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins), put a question to the President of the Board of Trade on this matter. He asked whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman would prohibit the export of agricultural machinery, particularly that type of machinery for which the demand exceeds the supply. The right hon. and learned Gentleman refused to consider such a suggestion. We would like to know, before this Debate ends, what the proposals of the Government are to meet what I believe will develop into a critical situation indeed in the coming months.
  I would like to say a few words on manpower. The President of the Board of Trade said that the Government still believed that the target of 140 per cent. increase in our exports at the end of 1947 could he achieved. Where is that increase in manpower to come from? The Government are budgeting for an additional 300,000 workers, 100,000 foreign workers,

  1379
  plus those who will be demobilised, and women. Set against that, will be the loss of 130,000 prisoners of war and the loss due to the raising of the school-leaving age which, I believe, cannot be postponed in the long-term interest of the nation. We have had to wait for this reform for 20 years, since it was first put on the Statute Book in the Fisher Act. It is a reform for which we can no longer wait. How do the Government intend to balance their manpower budget, particularly when they come to the ultimate target of 170 per cent. increase which they have set themselves?
  They have said, and said rightly, that they cannot direct labour. No Government in this democratic country could contemplate such a thing. But what they can do is to cut down the number of people on non-productive work. As has been pointed out, we have double the number of civil servants we had before the war. Some Members think that we may be in danger of becoming a nation of civil servants. There could, and should, be a cut there, and I believe that it could be effected without impairing the Service in any way; in fact, I think it might increase its efficiency. A cut should also be made in the Services. The Minister of Defence, among the other things which he said last night, said that he was prepared to go into the charges made about wastage and the uneconomic use of manpower in the Forces. That is all right so far as it goes, but a real cut in the Services can only be effected as a result of a major decision of policy, and a scaling down of our commitments. I am perfectly certain that we shall have to face that issue sooner or later, and we might as well face it sooner, than later.
  There is a third source of labour on which the Government can draw, and will be compelled to draw, and about which we have heard extremely little in this Debate. That is the womanpower of the country. It would have been impossible, as all sections of the House will agree, for us to have reached the very high level of production during the war, had it not been for the work of women in the factories I believe it is going to be equally impossible for the Government to reach the target they have set themselves in peacetime unless they extend very considerably the number of women employed in industry. What has happened? In
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  1945–46 over half a million women left industry. That is a very serious matter. I believe that if we could get back 250,000 women into the manufacturing industries in this country it would be the greatest single contribution we could make to the manpower problem at the moment. In the Debate yesterday, the Minister of Labour pointed to the need for workers in the textile industry. He said that 88,000 were needed eventually, 26,000 immediately, and 60,000 women and girls was the figure he gave for the woollen and worsted trades in the next five years. What inducement are the Government offering women to return to industry? They are not only asking them to work harder, as they are asking all other workers. They are asking women to do something which they are not asking anyone else to do. They are asking them to do two jobs. Do they really think they are likely to get women back into industry in great numbers, if they are not going to pay them the rate for the job? At the beginning of the war, it was computed that in industry a woman was worth four-fifths of a man. As in any other sphere, I believe that depends on the man. But, if that were ever true, which I doubt, it is certainly not true today. We have the authority of the Foreign Secretary in this matter. He was charged with the mobilisation of womanpower in the war, and he said the other day that as a result of the experience of the war output is now about equal, one for one. That is from someone who had a real experience of the actual work of women on a national scale during the war.
  I would like to ask the Government two questions an this matter. It has been suggested that it is proposed to bring foreign male workers into certain industries in this country which are classified as women's work, and that these male workers are to receive, for female work, the male rate. That is completely indefensible. It certainly is not likely to influence women to enter industry. It is the Ministry of Labour which lays down conditions under which foreign labour works in this country. Can we have an assurance that that will not be permitted to happen? The second question is this: are the Government going to grant equal pay in the Civil Service, or are they going to say they cannot afford it? Are they going to say that it is going to start another infia-

  1381
  tionary tendency, if equal pay is given as a result throughout industry? This proposal has been on the agenda of the T.U.C., I believe, for the last 50 years, or more. During that time, wage rates of workers in this country have been revolutionised, but this injustice to women workers still remains. There have always been unanswerable arguments, and decisive reasons why this should not be done, given by successive Governments. I say to this Government that unless they give the rate for the job, they will not have the maximum incentive to women to return to industry, and the Government cannot hope to reach their ultimate target of 170 per cent. increase in exports without mobilising the woman-power of this country.
  The right hon, Gentleman the Member for Woodford has moved a Vote of Censure this afternoon. In the days of narrower party majorities in this House, the logical corollary of voting against the Government was that you were prepared to replace it by the official Opposition. With the memory of 20 years of Conservative Administrations in this country before the war, that is not a prospect which can fill any of us on these benches with anything but despair. We believe that the Ethiopian has not changed his skin, in spite of the fact that some hon. Members, like the hon. Member for Monmouth, have gone in for a process of bleaching. Certainly we shall not find ourselves in the Lobby with hon. Members above the Gangway tonight. Then there is the Government Motion. Quite frankly, we cannot be quite happy with either. The terms of the Government Motion are quite unexceptionable. In fact, there is nothing in it. But we are not asked to vote on the Government Motion, we are asked to vote on the policy of the Government to meet the national crisis, and we believe that that policy falls tragically short of what is necessary. We shall, therefore, feel ourselves compelled to vote against the Motion. I may say that we do it more in sorrow than in anger. We do it without any of the hatred, envy, and uncharitableness about which the right hon. Gentleman spoke earlier in the Debate. Hope springs not quite eternal about the Government on these benches but it is quite prepared to spring a little longer.
  I hope as a result of this Debate, and of the constructive criticisms which have come from all parts of the House, the
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  Government will think again, and plan on a wider, more imaginative, and more courageous basis. I believe that one of the greatest disasters which overtook us in the years before the war was the failure of progressive parties in Europe to face the economic difficulties of that time. I do not want to see that happen here. But, let us face this fact, the Government and hon. Gentlemen opposite and their policy are on trial. They have a great majority in this House, but that will not save them if they fail in facing up to the economic realities of the crisis. They will need the co-operation of the whole nation, of workers, employers, managers, and of the great mass of the people of this country. They hold in their hands the destinies of a great people. I still hope that they will rise to meet and defeat this adversity, which may also become, in their hands, an opportunity to save the nation.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. Bernard Taylor: I do not propose to follow the noble Lady on the question of equal pay for equal work. I was impressed by one remark made by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft), to the effect that coal production per man-shift was less now than it was before the war. While there are many factors in this connection, the average age of the miner is now greater than it was before the war; further, the working faces are much further away from the shaft bottom than they were, and that represents an increase in haulage costs. I am sure that the hon. Member for Monmouth will look over those two points in the light of the statement that he made.
  To turn to the White Paper, which has been the subject of much discussion, and sometimes of heated debate, I would say that it is certainly both an interesting and a sombre document. As I read and reread it, I was reminded of how devastating and how destructive are the circumstances of war. Let us, for one moment, think of our losses, both human and material. Our attention is drawn to them in the White Paper—losses in men, losses in exports, losses in investments, losses in capital equipment. In the last Parliament, I remember the right hon. Gentleman the _timber for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), who was then Prime Minister, frequently coming down to the House, and telling us of the way in which our productive forces

  1383
  were being geared up. He used to describe to us how, in 1940, this process started merely as a trickle, and by the end of 1944 had reached a mighty crescendo. What was accomplished in that field during the period of the war was really tremendous and terrific.
  May I draw the attention of the House to the deployment of our manpower in that period? The White Paper informs us that 42 per cent. of our manpower was engaged either in the Forces or in the supply of arms for them. Only two per cent. of our manpower were employed for the purpose of our exports, and only 8 per cent. on the maintenance of our capital equipment. What was accomplished in that period was a tremendous achievement, and it was certainly no easy job. But I submit that the unwinding process has been no less difficult, and that the Government, in this field, have done a remarkable job, and in my view have every reason to be proud of it. What has been the main task of the Government during the past 18 months? It has been to demobilise the force which was built up during the period of the war, and to set in motion our civilian economy. That has been done with a minimum of dislocation. The best proof of that is to compare the number of days lost at the end of the 1914–1918 war through industrial disputes, and the number that have been lost in this period. In paragraphs 31 and 32 of the White Paper hon. Members will find a clear picture of the switch from war to peace, and I congratulate the Government on the way they have done it.
  I wish to make one or two observations about a topic which has been much discussed during this Debate, that is, the subject of coal. I make no apologies for this, not only coming from a mining division as I do, but having spent the major portion of my life working in the pits. First, I would say that of the many issues raised in the White Paper, none is more prominent, and certainly none is more important, than this question of coal. Our exports, our housing, our consumer goods, transport and distribution, all depend upon coal. It is basic and fundamental to our economic prosperity. I recall that many years ago, when I started work in the pit, as a boy, when we were going down the shaft and walking along the roadways, we used to sing
  1384
  a song. I have not heard it for many years but I would like to quote a few words now. [HON. MEMBERS: "Sing it."] I am an Englishman, not a Welshman. The part I want to quote runs like this:
  "Coal, precious coal,
  What would the world do without it?
  What would become of our ships on the sea?
  Our railways, our workshops and big factories?"
  We certainly now know what it is like to be without coal.
  I had the opportunity, in early January this year, of unveiling a notice board at the colliery where I started work, and where I was employed for many years. In a little speech, I said that, as a nation, without coal we have nothing, not even a future. In view of what has been said from the benches opposite during the past few weeks, and what has been written in many daily newspapers, I went on to say that the misdeeds perpetrated during the period between the two wars were responsible for the fuel shortage that we have been experiencing during the past few weeks.
  Of what does the White Paper remind us? Take 1946. Coal production was not enough to meet our industrial and domestic needs. How many times have we been reminded here that last year, only 189 million tons were produced, but 194 million tons were consumed? The right hon. Member for Woodford had much to say in that regard during his dissertation on the coal situation. I submit that the reason why this commodity is scarce is not because the miners have not played their part but because there are too few of them. Why is that so? It is because the boys have refused to take up mining as a career owing to the treatment their fathers received in the period between the two wars. Mining was for too long the Cinderella of industries, the cockpit of the economic struggle. In my generation there have been three national stoppages. They were in 1912, 1921 and 1926. On each occasion the odds have been heavily against the miners. At the end of the last dispute, they decided to employ a new technique to enable them to achieve what they had been struggling for in these three national stoppages.
  In a sentence, that new technique was that they gave no encouragement at all

  1385
  to the boys to go into the pits. I say sincerely, and with emphasis, to hon. Members opposite that the responsibility is theirs for allowing coalowners to do irreparable damage technically and psychologically to this great basic industry of ours. At one time, coal was plentiful. I recall the time when 400,000 miners were on the roads looking for a job. During this Debate we have heard much about restrictive practices. I well recall that in the middle 1930's there was a system of quotas established in the mining industry. When any pit turned out more than its alloted quota, a financial penalty was imposed on the owner. At that time coal-owners "scrounged" around trying to find a pit which was unable to produce its quota. They were prepared to buy the coal for half-a-crown a ton. If ever a wheel has gone full circle, it is this one. There are not too many miners, nor is there too much coal now. Instead, there are too few miners and too little of this precious commodity which the late Mr. Lloyd George used to describe as "black diamonds." They really are black diamonds. Without them—and this has been impressed upon us during the fuel crisis—industry would stagnate and die. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) said recently that the miners were the shock troops of the industrial army. I will put it in another way. In my view, they are the saviours of this nation. They hold in their hard, battered, horny hands the destiny of this country. It is my view that they will rise to the occasion.
  The White Paper informs us that the 1947 industrial problem is fundamentally a problem of coal. Never were truer words spoken. The Government realise this, and they have put down only a minimum target which must be achieved this year. In that connection, I recall that only two weeks ago during the Debate on fuel distribution the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) said that this was too low a target. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George) said that it was too optimistic a figure, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade said it was a realistic figure. Each of them gave reasons to prove his argument. Whatever their opinions were, and no doubt still are, I say that it is a
  1386
  necessary figure in order to fulfil our industrial and domestic needs for 1947. If our industrial and domestic needs are to be met, and we are to start next winter with a more reasonable stock than that with which we started this winter, I say to the right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench that by hook or crook, they must discover some means of improving the position. We must not start next winter, remembering the vagaries of our climate, with a lower stock of coal than 14 million or 15 million tons.
  There are aspects of the mining industry which are peculiar. Accidents and industrial disease take their toll. In 1946, the wastage was 16,000. That figure is the equivalent of a pit employing 1,500 people going out of production every week. The incidence of wastage is really colossal. Silicosis, pneumoconiosis, nystagmus, dermatitis, fatal and non-fatal accidents, take their toll of the fine fit men employed in the industry. In the past too little attention has been paid to these difficulties. I hope that the Coal Board will give immediate attention to the problem. It is important that wastage should be reduced to a much lower percentage. I note that it is the intention of the Government to build up the personnel to a figure of 730,000 this year. If we take into account the wastage on the basis of last year's figures, that represents an additional recruitment this year of no fewer than 100,000 men. I doubt very much whether they can be found in the mining areas. Assuming that they can be found, it is wrong to expect that the mining communities alone will fill the gap. In regard to the remarks of the Minister of Labour yesterday, I say to him, in all seriousness, that if this target is to be achieved, his propaganda and publicity must be nationwide and not confined to the mining areas. Additional manpower is the key to the problem of this industry.
  I would have liked to say one or two words about food, machinery and transport, but my time is limited. I would only make these observations about food. It has been stated that additional supplies are to be directed to the mining areas in the form of sugar, fats and tinned goods. Some of the mining areas are cosmopolitan in make-up and contain other workers instead of miners, and I hope that some means will be found whereby miners in those areas will get the food which is being sent to them.

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  The miners of this country are behind the Government if for no other reason than that the Government have fulfilled their pledge in nationalising the mines. What has it done? It has rekindled their faith and brought them a new hope. I have a quotation for the benches opposite from an ex-Conservative Member of Parliament, Mr. Walter Higgs, speaking in New Zealand. This was reported in one of our daily papers on Monday this week. I would like to know whether it is the Tory policy:
  "Empty bellies are the one thing that will make Britons work. Empty bellies will force the miners back to the pits. It is the only economic way."
  Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the privilege of allowing me to put these few points.
  6.51 p.m.
  Sir Stanley Holmes: I have listened to most of the Debate during the past three clays and I am appalled by the fact that the supporters of the Government appear to have only the slightest realisation of the terrible crisis which has come upon us—a crisis which is likely to get worse. I almost feel from the speeches we have heard from the Front Bench that the Government themselves do not realise how serious it is. The speech this afternoon from the Lord Privy Seal did not deal with the crisis in the slightest. The only one who appears to realise the crisis is the President of the Board of Trade. I cannot help hoping that we may have something more tangible from the Government when the Prime Minister speaks later today.
  My first comment on the White Paper is that it is a year and a half too late. The White Paper says that this is a critical moment in our affairs. It is. But it was nearly as critical as in the summer of 1945. The White Paper states that it is the Government's determination to put first things first. It is nothing of the sort. The Government are not putting first things first at the present time, and they have not been doing so for a very long time. The White Paper also says that the Government are now calling for an increase of output per man-year. That is also a year and a half too late. That ought to have started at the end of the war.
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  At the end of the war all our overseas investments were gone, the railways were worn out, our ships had been decimated, our industrial and domestic buildings had been destroyed, factories which had been doing war work were having difficulty in getting back to their peacetime occupations, and machinery of all kinds was worn out. We had the greatest difficulty in competing with America and the South American countries so far as manufacture was concerned, and we were more impoverished as a nation than at any other period of our existence. In such circumstances we needed two things as a nation. One was wise guidance by the Government and the other was hard work by the people; and we got neither. We had a General Election which gave the Socialist party a surprising majority. The Lord Privy Seal said this afternoon that the Socialist Party thought they would get in at the General Election, but I am sure everybody in this House was surprised by the majority.
  Having taken office, the Government did not give wise guidance to the nation. They went crazy on a doctrinaire socialistic policy and no attention was paid to the critical economic position of the nation at that time. Instead of putting first things first, as they now claim to be doing, they introduced Bills to nationalise various industries and services, and now the crisis has come—not caused but precipitated by the Arctic weather. I emphasise that it is not caused by the weather. It would have come in any case. It has been coming for 18 months, but it has been brought to us a little quicker by the weather than it would otherwise have been done. We have got into this mess as a nation because the Government have wasted 18 months in pursuing socialistic ideas instead of attending to the important task of putting our economic position right.
  I want to refer again to the statement in the White Paper that the Government now call for an increase of output per man-year. The Socialist Party's doctrine for the past three generations, the doctrine on which they climbed to power eventually, was: "shorter hours and higher wages"— it is difficult for them now to call upon the workers of the country to work harder. It was only natural that when the Socialist Party got into power in the summer of 1945 all the workpeople of the country should say, "Now we will have an easy

  1389
  time. We need not work so hard and we shall get higher wages," and that is what has gradually, day by day, brought this crisis upon us. Until the Socialist Party are ready to infuse every worker, man and woman, with the spirit of doing a little more work than they are doing at present, we shall never come out of the crisis. Everyone in industry knows perfectly well that there is not a factory in the country, a mine or anything else, where during the past 12 months and up to the time of the crisis, the amount of work per person done in each hour has not been less than it used to be. That is the result to the nation of the Labour Party coming into power.
  Although we have had the White Paper, although we have had a speech from the President of the Board of Trade which was certainly sincere and realistically pointed out the serious position we are in as a nation, the Government themselves have not yet faced up to the crisis. The two great difficulties which have happened to us have been the lack of coal and the dislocation of transport. One would have thought at a moment like this that the two Ministers concerned would be devoting the whole of their time, the Minister of Fuel and Power to getting more fuel and arranging for the proper allocation of power, and the Minister of Transport to arranging for the transport of coal, food and various other things. What do we find they are doing? They are spending in Standing Committees three days a week, one on the nationalisation of transport, the other on the nationalisation of electricity. Not only are they doing it, but their officials have to do it, and there are 50 hon. Members of this House on each Standing Committee as well. Supposing a business had a crisis with which the directors and management had to deal, would they devote the whole of their time, attention, and thought to the matter until they had put it right, or would they sit down in the board room and consider plans for extending the factory in 10 years' time?
  Major Cecil Poole: They would probably go to Ascot.
  Sir S. Holmes: They would put first things first. The Government are not doing that, and you see history repeating itself in exactly the same way as Nero fiddled while Rome burned. So the Socialist Party, when this nation is in the middle of a crisis, and likely to have a bigger one, are using up their time, the
  1390
  time of the House and the time of their officials, to consider Bills for the nationalisation of industries which may have some effect in 10 or 20 years' time. I want to emphasise one thing; the only way we can get out of this crisis, the only way we can survive and maintain our standard of living is, first, by wise Government guidance, and secondly, by hard work on the part of all the people.
  7.5 p.m.
  Miss Herbison: I welcome the opportunity of this Debate for dealing with a few matters which caused me much concern, and, indeed, sometimes made me extremely angry long before I became a Member of Parliament. Hon. Members may wonder how matters that worried me at that time have anything to do with the subject which is being debated today, but they are most pertinent to that subject. May I first comment on the speeches of the hon. Member for Harwich (Sir S. Holmes) and various other hon. Members on the Opposition benches, who taunted us with carrying out doctrinaire Socialist policy? Indeed, the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) said that he did not think the people expected us to carry out our Socialist policy. One would expect that sentiment to come from a Member of the Opposition, because the people never expected them to carry out their policy, and they never did carry it out when they were the Government in this House.
  It has been rightly stressed in the White Paper that the very life of this country depends on an adequate supply of coal. When I read that I thought what a change of values was portrayed there compared with the not long distant past, when miners suffered so much from unemployment and long months of strife. Indeed, it is a tragedy that it should take a crisis such as we are passing through to make the majority of the nation, and particularly members of the Opposition, realise the true worth of those men who do such difficult work in providing the raw material that is essential, nay, vital, for upholding the economic structure of this nation.
  I am certain that we shall have difficulty in attracting the 100,000 extra men needed this year to get our target of 200 million tons of coal. I have no intention of digging too deeply into the past to find the reasons for this shortage of manpower,

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  but we have first to find what are the causes of the problems facing us in the coal industry today, because, unless we do so, we shall never be able to solve those problems. Solve them we must and, I am certain, solve them we shall. One of the main reasons for the shortage of manpower is the suffering and misery caused by the mineowners in the past. I shall not deal with that now because I feel that that cause of the manpower shortage will be cured by the nationalisation of the industry. I say to those who tell us that we are more concerned with doctrinaire policy that, if we had not had nationalisation, we should have been much worse off for coal today than we are. I think I represent more miners than any other Member from Scotland and, going among them, I sense a completely different feeling—a feeling of hope, an awareness that at last the bad old days have gone. They feel they can now look towards an era of peace in an industry which, for so long, was rent with strife, and that they can expect a real recognition of their work. But nationalisation will not cure all the problems of manpower shortage in this industry, and I want to deal with two of the causes of this problem.
  During the war there was in this country a very strong feeling against direction of labour. It was accepted by the majority
  of the people as inevitable if we were to win the war, but in mining districts there has always been the most insidious form of direction of labour. I ask the indulgence of the House in referring to the mining district which I know best, although what I say of this district is applicable to almost every mining district in the whole of Great Britain. In the north-east corner of Lanarkshire there is within a radius of about four miles, a number of villages the total population of which is 25,000. There is no other industry but mining in the whole of that district. What does this mean for the people who live there? For the boys in that district there has been no real choice of occupation. They have had either to enter the mining industry, or leave their homes to find other work.
  It has been much worse for the girls and women in the mining districts. At the early age of 14 almost every daughter of a miner has to leave home to work as a domestic servant in one of our big cities. I used to feel heart-sorry for those
  1392
  girls before I came to this House. At night I would see those young girls from our, mining villages, during their afternoons or evenings off, in the Glasgow Central station on the mere chance of seeing and speaking with someone from their villages. This inhuman and intolerable form of direction of labour must cease, not only because it is unjust but because I know it is one of the reasons why today there is a shortage of manpower in the mining districts.
  Many miners, even when they were not unemployed, left the district which I am describing to go to the cities, not because they wanted another job but because they were determined that their families should not be separated from them. They were determined that they would find some other work if they possibly could. Indeed, in that district, as in many mining districts, there was almost a mass emigration to America and to our Dominions. Almost every family in the village in which I live has some relation in America. What is the cure for this cause of manpower shortage? We must ensure that in a purely mining district, work is provided for the girls in that district. My people are perturbed, as I am, that, so far, the Scottish regional office of the Board of Trade has made no sign whatever of finding work in that district for the women. If we are to keep the men who are there and attract new men into the mining industry we must see that there is work for their daughters and women folk.
  The second cause of the dwindling manpower in this industry is the fate of the disabled miner. We have on the books of our local exchange in that district, 451 unemployed men. I understand from the labour exchange manager that between 70 per cent. and 80 per cent. of those men are disabled miners suffering from miners' diseases or from having bean injured in the pit. Many of them have been unemployed for a very long time, and some of them are under 40 years of age. They are told that they are fit for any work but mining. What a fate has faced them so far, and what a fate is still facing them in that mining district. Those men are proud, as most miners are. They do not ask for charity or for unemployment benefit. What they expect from this Government is work. When they speak to me—and I see them frequently at weekends—I find they are beginning to be a

  1393
  little cynical. They see in the newspapers and hear over the radio that there is a manpower shortage in the country. They cannot understand it. There they are, willing to work, but it is not easy for them to leave these mining villages and go elsewhere because in many instances their sons are working in the mines. I say to the Minister of Labour, whom I am glad is here: There is an Act which was passed in 1944, the Disabled Persons Employment Act. We have been told in answers to questions from Scottish Members that six sites have been chosen in Scotland for factories. Surely, there are no more honourably disabled men than these miners. Something must be done for them—not only for the 400 of whom I have been speaking, but for those in the other mining districts in Great Britain.
  If these two causes of dwindling manpower in the mining industry are tackled by this Government—and I am certain it is not beyond their wit to tackle them—they will not only keep the men who are already in the mining industry but, because of nationalisation and because the people in the mining industry see that they and their families will have a better future, further manpower will be attracted into that industry.
  7.18 p.m.
  Colonel Lancaster: I hope it will not be taken as a presumption on my part if I congratulate the hon. Lady the Member for North Lanark (Miss Herbison) on her speech. We have recently heard three constructive speeches, and most particularly that of the hon. Lady. Anybody fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, at this late stage in the Debate ought to decide whether his speech should range over the general matters in the White Paper, or whether he should confine himself to certain specific principles or matters as contributing to the discussion of the whole. In order to do justice to the problem, one should attempt an analysis of the position as affecting the points one wishes to make, because only by an objective approach will it be possible to view the problem in the proper context. In this three days' Debate, agreement has been reached on all sides on the fact that the underlying cause of the present dislocation and bottlenecks is the very factor which permeates the White Paper—the failure of the Government to put first things first. If we were to relive these
  1394
  two years I think no responsible Government would again fail to take every step in their power to see that at any rate the framework of our economy was secured. The failure to provide rolling stock, locomotives, generating power, steel—both by production and import—or to take the necessary steps in regard to putting the mining industry on a sound foundation was, I submit, the underlying cause of the situation with which we are faced today. It is easy to be wise after the event, but that so little was done where so much was required is the indictment we have a right to lay at the door of this Government.
  I do not want to cover the ground which has been most ably covered by my right hon. Friend the senior Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan). I shall attempt, in the very few minutes for which I wish to speak, to give my analysis of both the coal and the steel situation, for these two are so closely related it is purposeless to discuss the one without the other. I shall go back to the same year as that selected by the President of the Board of Trade, but I expect to place a somewhat different construction on events and my deductions will therefore be dissimilar. I select 1941 in particular because it is from that date that we recognise a definite trend of events which is germane to our consideration of the present problem. I shall deal with this, in the first instance, purely factually, and shall not attempt to give reasons. From 1941, as the House well knows, output fell steadily. It corresponded with the introduction of the Essential Work Order. The results were cumulatively adverse from that date; they continued so till the year 1945 when, with the termination of the war, there ensued a period of inevitable transition. Men left the pits; other men returned from the Forces; there were holiday periods, and all the normal dislocations which were inseparable from such a period. This phase continued to well on into the summer of 1946, and it was not till the autumn of 1946 that the industry began to pick up again. There were a number of reasons for that. The Essential Work Order was still with us, but had been modified; a lot of older men, who had given good service during the war, left the industry; there was a flow of young men back from the Forces, who brought with them an excellent effect in the pits; mining machinery was available

  1395
  in reasonable quantity, and a general tightening up process of the industry occurred.
  I think the President of the Board of trade was perfectly right in saying that we should consider the present situation as arising out of 1945. Well, let us do so. We saw an improvement in 1946—I am not prepared to attribute much of that to psychological reasons—and by the late months of 1946 we had arrived at a production figure of 3,900,000 tons a week. Had it not been for the present weather difficulties, I think we should have attained a steady 4,000,000 tons a week by March of this year. We must anticipate a drop in the summer months, but if the same trend continues we should get on to a 4,100,000 mark in the autumn, with a steady rise subsequently. If that turns out to be the case, we will be getting somewhere towards the 200 million mark. If we are to obtain the 14 million or 16 million tons of stock which we require—and I think we want, that amount over and above what is necessary in the pipe line, another million and three-quarter millions—it means, in effect, we have to put by about one million tons every week of the summer period. There are only so many months in the summer in
  which, in fact, stock is put by. Once the holiday period arrives, it is very difficult to do so, and we are pretty well confined to the months of May, June and July. It will be a tremendously difficult task. There seem to me to be two things which should be done at this moment. First, the National Coal Board should give their estimate of what will be produced, area by area, and quality by quality. When I say "quality," I mean that coal which will be available for the railways, gas works, electricity undertakings, general industrial purposes or household purposes. Once they have made that estimate for the next four months—the Ministry of Supply should give a firm target for industry, because without that industry will be put in an impossibly difficult position. That is the first step.
  Now, what is the next step? We on this side of the House have been taunted, from time to time, with taking the easy course of telling the Government where they are wrong. For a few minutes, I want to make a few constructive suggestions. I know they have been covered by other speakers, but they are none the
  1396
  worse for that. There is only one way in which we will get more coal immediately on a short-term policy, and it falls under three headings: We want more face room, more men, and more machinery. Now, it is sensible to set out more face room only if it is accompanied by concentration. In suitable cases, we must move men from less profitable seams and pits and concentrate them where they can do the most work. That should not be a very difficult thing to do. We ought to be able to set out the necessary face room, in my opinion, within two or three months. As to the men, it is not the slightest use pitching our estimates too high. We should get the normal recruitment of boys which enables upgrading to occur, and we want as many boys as we can get. If we are to aim at getting youths who can be put into productive work it is not the slightest use attempting to do so beyond the reasonable pace at which they can train them. In my opinion, 2,500 a month is the limit to the number we are able to train.
  I must take up the time of the House for a few minutes in going into this in some detail, because it is, to my way of thinking, a most important aspect of our coal problem. The question of training men for coal production is something of which we have now got some experience. Ever since the Bevin boys and the optants came into the pits during the war, the industry has been able to concentrate on the question of training, and to obtain very valuable experience. I myself, when I came out of the Army, took a good deal of interest in this matter, and I was at one time associated with one of the biggest training schemes in the country, under which 1,000 optants and Bevin boys were being trained at one pit alone. Arising out of that experience, we developed a technique of training which came to be recognised by the Mines Department as being I think, the most satisfactory one there was.
  The principle of it was that of attuning the man's mental and physical reflexes gradually to the task he had to learn. It was an orderly method taking him from the surface to the coal face by reasonable stages—a month on the surface, a month at the pit bottom, a month on haulage, a month on a loading station, a month on "back ripping" and then two months on a training face. By that means we

  1397
  were able to get that man on to a working face in seven and a half months. By the time he got on to working at the face he was able, in conjunction with a trained miner, to take his share of 15 yards of the ordinary face—the trained miner taking nine and the learner six yards—the apprentice's production being of the order of 75 hundredweight a day. The Ministry took this scheme seriously, and I was encouraged by the fact that when the new Parliamentary Secretary was appointed to the Ministry of Fuel and Power, he came down last September to investigate these methods. It was something of a disappointment that, when he did get there, all the things that seemed to me to be important he seemed to disregard.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: That is what one would expect.
  Colonel Lancaster: I am afraid he spent a busy day approaching the matter from the purely psychological aspect, and failing to grasp the essentials of the technique. What is the result? On 1st January that system was discarded, and a new training system was substituted. The effect of this new system is, first, that it is going to take a month longer to train those men, and by the new methods they are setting out to produce no more from those men at the end of a further month than 60 hundredweight—a drop in tonnage and a month longer for their training.
  I am sorry to have gone into this in such detail, but it is one of the things which, I think, is going to contribute very much to the prospects of our not producing 200 million tons—quite apart from our ever getting over that figure. If we train these young men properly get them on to a working face in the shortest possible time and let them play their part. Nothing detracts more from the keenness and morale of these young men than if they have to spend longer on their training than is necessary, and he is thus kept from getting the best wage available to him To disregard all that experience at this moment, and to go back to a scheme which is far less effective, seems nothing less than tragic.
  Now, a word about machinery. We are at this moment 66 weeks behind in our requirements of roller bearings; we are 18 months behind in our requirements of heavy electrical motors; and we are five months behind in our requirements of
  1398
  rubber belting. These deficiencies must be put right; for these things are essential to coalmining. Why I linked coal and steel together was, that the two things are so complementary that if, in one direction, we are short of materials, then coal production goes, too.
  Hon. Members may ask why I have waited until this moment to take some party advantage in producing these facts. I am at the moment employed by the National Coal Board in an advisory capacity. Unfortunately—and I say this in all sincerity to hon. Members opposite —nationalisation does not work that way. The National Coal Board is a mixture of checks and balances. The men comprising the National Coal Board, eminent men in their own line of country, are technicians concerned with setting up their own vertical control down through the division to the area, the divisional organisations are growing apace; immersed in detail; admirable and independent men, but quite inexperienced as far as this industry is concerned have been selected as chairmen of the divisions. They are overwhelmed with the details of their work, and complexities of the machinery of this ponderous organisation. What I am talking about is not an area matter. These are matters of national application. They are things which, if advantage is taken of them, can bring about some improvement in this great industry. But they have neither the time or in many cases the knowledge to take advantage of such advice as one can give them. This is not a personal matter, but it is indicative that the effect of nationalisation, and its limitations. Boards, national and divisional cannot see beyond the detail of what they are trying to struggle with at the moment.
  Has anyone seen leadership by the National Coal Board during this crisis? No. It
  has all been taken out of their hands by the Minister. I do not blame them. But without leadership we are not going to get out of our troubles—leadership by the National Coal Board, by the Minister of Fuel and Power, by the Ministry of Supply, and, above all, leadership from the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman the leader of my party said, and said rightly, that the Prime Minister had quitted himself like a man in two wars. He has. We have a right to look to him at this moment for

  1399
  the leadership which the country is not getting. Without that leadership we shall fail.
  7.37 p.m.
  Mr. Carmichael: Speaking on behalf of my party, which, I regret to say, has been depleted by something like 33⅓ per cent., I take part in this Debate because I think that the challenge today is not a challenge to the weaknesses of a particular industry, but a challenge to the policy of the movement that is represented by the Government at this hour. The challenge is a challenge to both the theory and the practice of the Labour movement.
  What is the first point in our Debate today? The issue of the White Paper. I gather from some of the comments that the Government, apparently, made a very serious mistake in issuing the White Paper, in that it declared the bankruptcy of the Government. I cannot accept that view. In my view, the White Paper is, quite rightly, a diagnosis of the situation presented to this country. I ask the House, is it really seriously intended by Members of the Opposition that, 18 months after a world war, with the dislocation arising during the war as a result of the mechanisation of the economic system, and with the sudden change over of the world's economy from war to peace conditions, any Government could solve the problems of the great masses of the people of this country? At least, there is this to be said for the White Paper—that it is a complete and well-examined statement of the facts of the economic situation of the country.
  The second thing we have to consider is how to approach it. How are we to deal with this economic situation which the White Paper reveals? Theoretically, there are two ways. Either we can adopt the way proposed by the Government or that proposed by the Opposition, and one is entitled to examine the theories of the Opposition on the basis of their past records. I want to say here, as I said to a public gathering at the week-end, that we have to be honest with the Opposition, and, while recognising that there is no complete analogy between the two years, we must try to visualise a Tory Government in power today, with our knowledge of the times when Tory and capitalist forces were in power in 1921. What was
  1400
  the situation then? I have no desire to go into any particular industry, but I would say that I come from a city where, at that time, unemployment began to grow, and where it ultimately reached the extent that between 80,000 and 100,000 people were unemployed in that great city, and, at the same period, something like £3 million was being spent annually by the local authority in relieving the destitution. Whatever may be said today about the dangers of inflation and the grave economic dangers of subsidising foodstuffs, and while recognising all the very serious handicaps experienced in working class life, the working people, at this hour, are on a better foundation than they were at the end of the last war.
  What is the immediate remedy? I have heard the speeches made in this House in the last two days, and from them it appears that the remedy is, first of all, to avoid inflationary wages. It is a nice way of putting it. In actual fact, it means reduced wages. Some of the speeches dealt with hours of labour, and the old economic argument was again being prescribed—"Reduce wages, increase hours of labour, reduce the cost of the commodity and you have a better opportunity of getting back your markets in the world." I submit that, in fairness to the Government—and I offer no apology for supporting the Government, because I see no other way of facing the situation—and recognising the situation with which the Government were presented, we must recognise what they have achieved in 18 months. They have nationalised the key basic industries of the country. It is suggested, apparently, that the Labour Government gained power by some political subterfuge. One might imagine that the electorate of this country was composed largely of people who were mentally defective. That is precisely the attitude of mind which has been exhibited today. The Government did not come to power in the last General Election. They have come to power through half a century of economic and political struggle, beginning in the well-established local authorities up and down the country, where ordinary working men and women showed themselves capable of surviving examination in their work by the electors of the country. Parliamentary Government is merely a supplementation of the work previously done.

  1401
  The nationalisation of the basic industries on a purely economic basis, in my opinion, is perfectly sound. So far as planning is concerned, I gather that, according to the Opposition, the Government have done plenty of planning without any plan. Let us be quite frank. This Government are carrying out the programme which they made known to the people of the country. Does anybody expect the results of nationalisation and the planning of the basic industries to be known at once? I put it to right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Opposition Bench who are concerned with big business, if they established a new company, or even took over a company which was in a bad way, would they expect that, in the first few months, there would be prosperity? Not one of them could expect it. I understand from the President of the Board of Trade that we are going a stage further, and that there is going to be a co-ordinating plan at the centre. I want to make a plea to the Government that they will permit that plan to work its way right down into industry itself. I see the great trade union movement now as a creative organisation. I think it must still defend itself in many ways, but I think it is now a great creative organisation, and, because of that, the trade union movement must be brought more closely in touch with the management of the industrial life of the country. I am not suggesting that every man in the workshop should be on the board of management, but they must be brought more closely into touch with one another, and I think it can be done.
  For many years, in many industries, trade unionists and workers in industry did not give of their very best. Why was that? The reason was that there was a constant fear that, as soon as they had finished the job they were doing, they would be on the streets. Let us make no mistake about that. Today, we are working in a planned age, and I say to the trade union movement that I believe that there must be an incentive in the various industries. I say to the workers in the building industry, and I hope my views will be heard sympathetically, that the future prosperity of the citizens of this country depends very largely on the efforts of the building workers, and, therefore, an incentive is necessary. Concerning the question of the contacts between the workers and their leaders. I think
  1402
  the old idea of holding union meetings miles away from the industry with which it was concerned is completely out of date. I think the trade union leaders must devise some means, with the help of the employers, if need be, to maintain contact with the men actually inside the industries. I am not suggesting that this should be done during working hours, but some arrangement has to be made so that time will permit these people to meet on the spot and be able to understand each other more intimately.
  In such a situation, I am satisfied that one of the things against which we shall require to safeguard ourselves after a few years is over-production, because man today has the capacity to produce more than he can consume, and, with the great changes in the machinery of industry, and the improvements that will come about in the next few years in our transport services—and any director of a railway company will tell us that the machinery with which we are working today is obsolete in every direction—over-production will be the danger. Great praise has been given to the miners, but I think it has been a miracle that, during the last few months, our transport services have stood up to the great strain imposed upon them. One of the most amazing things is that no serious accident has taken place during the very severe winter. I think that is a credit to the people in the railway industry. When we have a complete overhauling of the rolling stock and big improvements in the transport services, what advantages will accrue to our industries, and what advantages shall we get from them?
  I want to finish on this note. Politically and psychologically, it would be a complete disaster if the Labour Government ever contemplated, even in the smallest degree, either carrying out the Tory programme, as the Opposition desire, or, on the other hand, contemplating a Coalition on a National Government basis. That would be a disaster. But, economically, I think that there is no answer. Nationalisation of industry must go on. One hon. Member complained about the time being occupied in Standing Committees. Does he want a handful of Members of a British Cabinet to decide whether there shall be nationalisation, and to have no Standing Committees at all? If we are to have a

  1403
  democracy, then we must have some of its shortcomings. One of its shortcomings is, undoubtedly, the spending of time in argument until a solution is found. In my view, nationalisation has got to be carried on—and more and more nationalisation.
  I hope that, at the end of this Debate, if there is a feeling in this House and in the country that there is something dishonest in the purpose of the working-class movement, or something shabby in its economics, that hon. Members opposite will not only debate the matter in the House, but will meet their constituents and discuss it with them. Let us face it quite openly in the places where we can get the people to listen to us, and to understand us. I shall go into the Division Lobby tonight with very great pleasure because, when I first saw the light of day, there was one single man raising his voice on behalf of the working class of this country. Keir Hardie was raising his voice, and was sneered at for the views he held. But, some 20 years later, a Motion was debated in this House on Socialism versus Capitalism. I think that the Lord Privy Seal is the only hon. Member in this House who took part in that Debate. Again, there was an overwhelming opposition to the theories of the Socialist movement. But, in face of all that, and in face of a tremendous propaganda, the Labour movement has come to power. I say to the Labour Party that they can only retain power, and make good their promise to the working class, if they continue to advance towards the socialisation of the economic things of this country.
  7.54 p.m
  Mr. Langford-Holt: During the last two days, I have listened to or read every speech that has been made in this House, either from the Government benches or from this side. I have reached the conviction that hon. Members opposite have not yet realised the gravity of the situation which faces the country today. Many of them have an insight, and a great understanding of a certain part of the problem. But the whole tone of hon. Members opposite has been that we are merely passing through a transitory state, which is the direct outcome of two feet of snow and two months of hard weather. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] I cannot emphasise too strongly
  1404
  my personal belief that this situation is going to get, not only worse, but very much worse before we are out of it.
  Mr. Shurmer: That is the hon. Member's opinion.
  Mr. Langford-Holt: That is my opinion. I read with interest the White Paper, and I have also read the statistical review, which the President of the Board of Trade waved at us yesterday. I ask the Government, as did the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) earlier, where, not only the Cabinet, but also the hon. Members behind them, stand in this matter? When opening this Debate on Monday, the President of the Board of Trade said:
  "We cannot afford increases in wage levels or shorter hours unless they increase productivity per man year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 10th March, 1947; Vol. 434, c. 994.]
  I want to know if hon. Members opposite believe that to be a true statement of fact, and a true statement of the absolute necessity of the present times. The President of the Board of Trade also announced his own personal belief—[An HON. MEMBER: And the Government's."]— and possibly the Government's belief, in the necessity for the introduction of incentives into the working of affairs of today. I should like to know whether the Government and their supporters are also convinced of the necessity of that. The White Paper, which I feel is a good summary of the situation as it is today, approaches, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) said, the fence, and takes one look at it. Then the horse jibs. The Government have clearly stated the facts, but they have gone no further.
  The problems are twofold. At the moment, we have in the world a sellers' market, but the time is fast approaching when that market will disappear, and then we, as a nation, will have to compete in cost with all the other nations of the world. Therefore, although it will work internally, if wages are put up, it will be impossible to compete with other countries. Secondly, it was mentioned in the White Paper that there are certain restrictive practices going on in the trade unions and on the other side of industry. The hon. Member for Monmouth asked the Government what they were prepared to do about that.

  1405
  I should like to reinforce his remarks. I ask the Government to state what they intend to do with regard to the restrictive practices on both sides of the industry. This crisis has come upon us at a time when we can ill afford the setback, be it temporary or be it not, in our industry and our economy. At this moment the country needs, above all else, from the Party opposite, and especially from the Prime Minister and his right hon. Friends on the Front Bench, a lead, and that is the one thing we are not getting today. We have had during the last 18 months an absolute spate of words of comfort from practically every right hon. Gentleman on the Government Front Bench. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in a speech at one of his weekend sallies into the country:
  "There is no financial crisis. There will be no financial crisis."
  Technically speaking, he may be, or he may not be, correct. He has the figures, I have not; but there is no doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by implication, was misleading the whole nation into believing that the financial structure of this country is perfectly sound. I submit that it is not. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council made a speech over the wireless entitled "Britain gets going." He spent about a quarter of an hour telling us how well we were getting going. In point of fact, we very nearly came to a standstill. If the right hon. Gentleman had contributed by stating what was wrong, instead of giving us a flow of words in which he told us how wonderful everything is, I think we might have been a lot nearer understanding the situation than we are today. Lastly, there have been the statements of the Minister of Fuel and Power. His statements have been so varied and so conflicting on all occasions, be it in the House or be it in the country, that I will not waste the time of the House by quoting them now. [Interruption.] I will do so if hon. Members so wish. I will give one quotation. At the time when this crisis started and the Press was making statements about cutting fuel, the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry, at his instigation or that of somebody else, brought out a statement that the electricity supply was not being "cut," hut was being "shed." If ever words of comfort were uttered where no words of comfort were merited, it was
  1406
  then. I would like to turn for one moment to the situation as it is now, and to the question of what is the cure. The coal situation calls, first of all, for more men. Even here we have the statement of the Minister of Fuel and Power, who, when speaking in Nottingham in September, said:
  "It is completely erroneous conception that more men are required in the mining industry."
  The Government today are telling us that we need more men. I believe the Government arc right, but, apparently, the Minister of Fuel and Power does not. Does the right hon. Gentleman still believe in the statement which he made? One of my hon. Friends mentioned the need for more faceroom. All hon. Members fully realise that that is one of the limiting factors. Another limiting factor which has been mentioned is the shortage of machinery. We now know that £4 million worth of machinery was exported last year. It takes 18 months to get flame-proof motor generators for the pits. What are the Government doing about that? Have they made any strict, well-conceived plans in regard to that? Lastly, there is the problem of illness and disease in the mining industry. I hope the Government will do all that is in their power to go ahead with all possible schemes for the reduction of disease and injuries in the pits.
  The Government have before them today an opportunity such as faced no Government since 1940. They can either create in this country a great nation, as part of a great Empire, or they can bring the whole house down about their ears. The Government must put production before prejudice, they must put their duty before dogma; if they do not, in the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal, I would say to them, "If you cannot govern, in God's name go."
  8.8 p.m.
  Mr. Gallacher: There was no one in the House who listened with greater pleasure to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition than did the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), but the whole build-up of his speech was based on an illusion, the illusion being that if the Labour Government dropped its Socialist policy and coquetted with the Tory Opposition, somehow or other this crisis would pass and

  1407
  everything would be all right. The Tories have got to understand that the crisis which confronts us is a deep crisis of the capitalist system which is hitting hard at this country, and it will, in a short time, stagger America. There is no possibility of getting out of the crisis unless there are fundamental changes in the whole character of the economy and social relations in this country. The Labour Government are not going far enough. We are short of modern industries—we have plenty of slums—we are short of equipment, short of food, short of fuel, short of housing—we are short of all these things —and to nationalise industries and create a mass of debt in the form of compensation will not help us to solve the problem. Those who are put out of industry should get a life annuity and nothing more, and all these millions of pounds that are going in compensation and the big profits now being made should go to modernise our factories, to get equipment, and to ensure that a new basis is laid to our economy.
  In the White Paper, we are told, in paragraph 8, something about totalitarian methods and democratic methods. I consider that paragraph to be a beautiful example of ineffable twaddle. We cannot, under democratic methods, direct labour. I do not want to direct labour; want to attract it, which is more important. Women of this country are short of food, short of clothing, short of fuel and of homes. They have had a very hard and bitter time. We have got to do everything possible in order to bring aid and encouragement to them. Ministers tell us we have commitments abroad, that we have responsibilities here and obligations there. May I tell the Government— maybe they will pay attention to me and maybe they will not—that their first commitment, their major responsibility, their outstanding obligation is to the people of this country. Maybe they will tell me that they know that, but let us consider.
  We cannot direct labour in the interests of the people of this country; our democratic methods will not let us. We cannot force a lad from Glasgow to go to work in London, we cannot force a lad from London to go and work in Glasgow, for our democratic methods will not allow us. But we can direct the lad from Glasgow and the lad from London to work in Greece putting props under the shaky throne of the German Glucksberg. We
  1408
  can direct lads from Glasgow and London Palestine to guard the pipe-lines running from the oil wells of Iraq. We can direct lads from London and Glasgow to India as watchmen of the Empire. I say to the Government that their responsibility is to the people of this country. Let them serve the people of this country instead of giving first service to the Imperialists.
  I want to see Socialist planning in this country, I want to see it applied to Scotland, with a decision on Rosyth, a graving dock in the Clyde that could berth and service the biggest ships, and an aircraft industry so that Scotland could make a contribution to air transport. But how can we carry out Socialist planning in this country if we are going to be dependent on capitalist methods in what are called the world markets? It is an impossibility. Why have not the Labour Governments of New Zealand, Australia and Britain had a talk together about economic planning, about planning in the interests of the people—not Imperial preference in the interest of capital profit-mongers? Why do not the Labour Government meet with the Socialist Governments of Europe, with the Government of Poland, with the Government of Czechoslovakia, with the Government of the mighty Soviet Union, in planning to provide a tremendous future for the economy of this country and the economy of Europe? There is no sense in having economic planning here, if we are to be dependent on the vagaries of private enterprise in the world markets.
  I would like to quote from the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, and I would ask every hon. Member to think about this question. The right hon. and learned Gentleman was talking about hard currency, and the need to direct as many of our imports as possible to hard currency countries. He said:
  "It would take too long to go through all the reason; against a policy of indiscriminate re-direction of our exports to hard currency markets, but perhaps I may mention one or two of them. We have a long-term problem of markets ahead of us, as well as a short-term problem, and it would be foolish to throw away, perhaps for ever, a good long-term market, it may be in a Dominion, for the sake of a purely temporary market in a hard currency country. Then there is the question of our responsibility which we cannot burke, for the supply to our own Colonial

  1409
  Empire of essential goods. Nor would it serve any useful purpose to divert our exports away from a good sterling market overseas to a dollar market if the vacuum that would thus be created were to be filled promptly by exports from a dollar country. One fact which is perhaps not appreciated is that the proportion of our exports going into hard currency markets has increased by about 1 per cent. per quarter during 1946, so the trend is in the right direction, but we must try to accelerate that trend. I have every confidence that exporters will treat this problem as really urgent, important and vital in the national interest." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1947, Vol. 434, C. 978.]
  I ask any right hon. or hon. Member on this side, how is it possible to carry out any Socialist planning at this stage, when we are faced with an attitude such as that? It is impossible, and so I say to the Government: Carry out Socialist planning—the Tory Party will never cooperate. The Tory financiers and Tory landlords will never co-operate. But let
  the Government carry out the Socialist policy of planning in this country, and carry it out in relation to the other planning countries. In that way, they will not only provide the opportunity for prosperity for all Europe, but will begin to build up prosperity here in this country.
  8.16 p.m.
  Colonel Ponsonby: I cannot follow the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) in the manner in which he has addressed the House. Here we are in the crisis, and we should all try to co-operate. I, therefore, propose to address most of my remarks to questions connected with the trade unions. Before I do so, however—and perhaps I shall get a good mark from the hon. Member for West Fife for this—I want to say one or two words about Russia. In two or three days, Mr. Speaker and the rest of the House will receive a delegation from Russia, and it may interest the House if for a few minutes I refer to the attitude of Russia to the basis of this White Paper, namely, work. As one of a delegation which went recently to Russia, I would pay a tribute to the wonderful improvements that have been made in that country. I would not say that their methods are quite as free as ours. But there is no doubt that under the leadership of Marshal Stalin they have made a wonderful reconversion of their industry and considering how they started, have improved out of all measure.
  1410
  In the U.S.S.R. they attach so much importance to work that it appears in their Constitution. This is what is said in the Constitution of 1936:
  "Work in the U.S.S.R. is a duty and a matter of honour to every able-bodied citizen."
  On the principle that he who does not work, neither shall he eat. In the U.S.S.R. the principle of Socialism is realised:
  "From each according to his ability, to each according to his work."
  I would like to tell the House, from our observations, how that is carried out in practice. We went through a large factory, and afterwards had a meeting with the directors and asked various questions. We asked what were the photographs put up on the wall of one side of the factory—I might mention that there practically all the work is piece work. They said that those photographs were of the Stakhanovites. Those are the people who have exceeded their norm or allotted task. On the other side were a number of other photographs. We said, "Who are these?" They said, "Those are the people who have not fulfilled their task. We put their photographs there and we put them in the local papers, to shame them." Then we asked how they dealt with absenteeism and sabotage. They shrugged their shoulders indicating that people who behaved like that were moved off to other places where no doubt the work was harder and conditions less congenial.
  When we asked, "What about strikes?" they answered, "Strikes? They are impossible. That would be against the State." That is how they carry on. It is all coupled with perpetual appeals, as we are having here, to the patriotism of the worker, and to the individual to work for the State. The trade unions have duties which are not like those of trade unions here. The trade unions there have little to do with the fixing of the tasks and not very much to do with wages. Their main concern, which they carry out very efficiently, is with matters of welfare—libraries; rest houses and so on.
  I come back to the main question of what the trade unions in this country are doing and are going to do to help the Government in the present crisis. Let me point out, in order to supply a background, that, in contradistinction to what

  1411
  was said by the Lord Privy Seal, this is not only a question of labour but a question of economics. It goes much further than the year 1947. I am aware that the White Paper refers only to the year 1947 and it refers a great deal to how we are to get our export trade going. In that document there is not a single line about the costs of production. Where shall we be in 1950? At the moment, we are, as it were, at the bottom of the hill. To get up the hill we shall have to climb hard during the next few years.
  At the moment, as one of my hon. Friends said a short time ago, we are in a seller's market. Perhaps it is not such a vital matter at the present moment, but in 1950 we shall have, as competitors, besides the United States, such countries as France, Germany, Australia, Canada and India. There will be countries who can produce goods much more cheaply than ourselves. I wonder whether the Government have considered that matter, and why they have not mentioned it in the White Paper. How can our trade unions assist, so that we can get down the costs of production?
  I turn to the question of the relationship between the trade unions and the Government. I am reminded of the Latin phrase: Post equitem sedit atra cura. I would translate that, "Behind the horseman sits black care". I wonder whether behind the Government sits the shadow of the Trades Union Congress. I wonder whether they are like Sancho Panza with Don Quixote. I would like to know whether there is friendly co-operation with the Government, and what the position now is. Between 1937 and 1939 there was a fear of trade unions, and it prevented the Government of the day from developing a very active policy on rearmament. That was one reason why we were not ready when the war started. I wonder whether it is a similar fear of trade unions which has hindered recently the recovery of the country. I would like an answer to that question. I wish there was a member of the T.U.C. present who could tell us whether trade unions are still inheriting an atmosphere of bitterness, distrust and suspicion. One feels that the trade union leaders are out of touch in some ways with the realities of the present day. I should like to know whether, in their dealings with the Government, the trade unions are ready
  1412
  to help, without trying to cash in on the situation, and imposing their conditions.
  In regard to the relations between the trade unions and industry, I am aware that some industries co-operate well with the trade unions. The trade union delegates place their problems and difficulties before the managements, and the managements put their difficulties also to the delegates. In other cases, there is still distrust, suspicion and fear. It may be on the one side and it may be on the other. I am not surprised sometimes that there is fear and suspicion, from the point of view of industry. So often there appears to be a lack of discipline in the trade unions, leading to strikes that dislocate the whole of a business. It may be the responsibility of the shop stewards and it may be because of independent agitators. Those hon. Members who are engaged in business will know what it means when a strike takes place, very often about a very small matter, and very often unauthorised. I would ask whether the trade unions are prepared to co-operate with industry as well as with the Government, to take drastic action where a strike takes place and is unauthorised. In other words, are the trade unions prepared to control their own members?
  I should also like to ask whether the trade unions are prepared to co-operate with each other? The other day in the case which
  was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) the bricklayers were perfectly ready to go on working for "time target" bonuses, but the joiners would not co-operate. The building work was, therefore, entirely delayed, and this because there was not co-operation among the trade unions. Let me make a suggestion. We have heard about the coal target of 200 million tons, and hon. Members have mentioned that it was necessary to increase the number of miners at least to 730,000. I should like to suggest that some industries might be able to assist in reaching that number, by facilitating the transfer of some of their labour to the mines. This might be done by industries which are at present hampered by lack of coal. It might not be at all impossible to carry out this suggestion, but it is no use making it unless there is wholehearted co-operation among the trade unions.
  The two other matters which I should
  like to deal with are hours of work and wages. In both those respects I am look-

  1413
  ing at the question of the costs of production between now and 1950. My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) quite rightly mentioned that the amount of work done now was only, for various reasons, 60 per cent., or 75 per cent, of what it was before the war. A friend of mine, a works director, went to Belgium the other day. There he found a country which has been under the heel of the Nazis, but there the people are now working 100 per cent. The trade unions were helping in every way. When he asked them, "What about the 40-hour week?" They replied, "Don't waste our time. How can we get full production on a 40-hour week?"
  I understand that in the middle of May the miners are going on to a five-day week. If the miners can get more coal in a five-day week, so much the better, hut I would like to know whether, if they work more than a 40-hour week will that entitle them to be paid overtime? If so, from an economic point of view that too will be adding to the cost of production. In view of the general position, can we afford it? I would like to know what the trade unions are going to do about that. About wages, in July, 1946, the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave an address to the National Joint Advisory Council. I will not quote it, because I have not the time, but he said that exports must be improved; that competitive prices in foreign markets meant competitive costs. He pointed out that wages have continued to rise, and he ended by appealing for the co-operation of industry to keep wages stable, as the Government were keeping prices stable. The President of the Board of Trade, in a speech just before Christmas, said something to the effect that a further increase in inducement wages leading to the spiral made him shiver. Yet what has happened? All through last year there were demands for increased wages and they were conceded. In other words, the economic point of view was not considered at all. Look what happened in the building industry the other day. Sixpence an hour increase was asked for. Hon. Members will realise that 6d. an hour means a £1 a week, and say £50 a year. There are 600,000 men in the building industry, and that would mean an increase of about £30,000,000 in building costs or about £100 per house.
  1414
  I would point out that if shorter hours are to be worked, and wages increased, or even maintained, we cannot produce goods to compete with the rest of the world. Hon. Members opposite, as well as those on this side of the House, will no doubt realise that that means factories closing and unemployment and with that how can we recover our war losses, repay our debts and maintain our standard of life? I am afraid that in 1950 members of trade unions may say that their leaders have led them up the garden path. I hope that the leaders of the trade unions will consider this. I hope also that they realise that there are a great many members of trade unions who are ready and willing to help. Perhaps there may be 75 per cent. of the workers who will help, if the matter is put to them in the right way. I end by quoting a letter to illustrate this point. One day last week I listened to a broadcast to factories belonging to a company where conditions are good, and where there is the closest co-operation between the management and workers. As a result of the broadcast, this letter, one of many,
  was received by the personnel manager:
  "It has just, occurred to me that owing to the generosity of the firm during the present close down, also the great loss both to the firm and especially to production, some small measure of appreciation would be forthcoming from the employees if a reasonable suggestion was put to them. One suggestion I might make is that the factory revert to the 5½ day week with previous rotes of pay, for a period of three to six months. Another is that for a shorter period the factory could work a six-day week, including the Easter and Whitsun holidays. Maybe, Sir, you will think that these are rather unusual suggestions, but you will agree that drastic situations call for drastic measures, and I am sure you will not find the majority of employees lacking in the 'helping out' spirit if some such suggestion is put to them."
  That is a message of hope which I hope the trade unions will take to heart, and co-operate with the majority of their members in helping the country to get through this period of crisis, and prepare for a great and active future.
  8.36 p.m.
  Mr. Hubbard: I welcome the opportunity, even at this late hour, of saying a word or two on this White Paper on the economic situation. Everybody agrees as to the seriousness of the position, and the Government, indeed have issued this White Paper because of the seriousness of the position. I would

  1415
  say at this juncture that this White Paper is not issued only to Members of this House, but to the whole of the people of this country. Indeed, the great importance of it is that the extent to which we will be able to meet the difficulties of the situation all the better and all the sooner will be determined by how the members of the public receive this White Paper, and are willing to co-operate in this matter. That will be the deciding factor.
  Members of the Opposition have made it clear that they have not much time for plans. They do not like plans at all, but they seem to have a particular grouse, against this particular plan. The members of the public have awaited this Debate, because just as they were anxious to hear the Government's point of view. so they were anxious to hear the alternative put up by the Opposition. We have been told for over a week that the bulk of the people are opposed to the present Government because the plan has failed. If that were true they were probably all the more anxious to find out if at long last the Tory Opposition had an alternative. The nearest approach to an alternative which
  I have heard today is "Turn back the clock." I am satisfied that the people of this country will not be prepared to turn back the clock.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: They will be doing it next Sunday.
  Mr. Hubbard: That is perhaps the sort of contribution one would expect from a Member on the opposite side of the House. They have turned back the clock on many Sundays. That is the nearest approach we have had from the opposite side of the House to a solution of the problem.
  The Debate has centred round productivity. There is nothing new about that. I represent Kirkcaldy, a town in which was born, in 1723, Adam Smith; who gave to the world "The Wealth of Nations," and devoted the first three chapters of Book One to the productivity of labour and the division of labour. A great many things have happened since then. We thought that the productivity of labour had been solved. In the early 1930's we found, as a result of the introduction of machinery, and the application of science, that productivity went beyond itself. At
  1416
  that time there were no shortages. We were living in a period of abundance. We appeared to have solved the problem of productivity. But what did that abundance mean?
  Abundance did not mean prosperity to the people at that time. It is true that every shelf in every shop was filled, and every factory was filled. But because they were filled and people could not purchase the commodities, the factories and the shops closed down. Even with Tory Governments, we admit that there was no shortage of coal. There were manmade mountains of coal at that time for the simple reason that the wheels of industry had stopped and the coal was not required. Is that what the Tories mean when they say "Turn back the clock"? Is that the solution they are inviting the people to accept in order to meet this extreme position? They have offered nothing else. We have known cases of men actually increasing their rate of production to find that at the end of the day they were faced with unemployment and everything that went with it.
  I am satisfied that if the people have waited for the Tory Party policy to be declared on this great day when the Vote of Censure has been moved, not only will they be disappointed but, if there is to be any solution at all, it is not to be found with the people who do not believe in plans. If the plan is there, we must have some evidence that the Government intend to fulfil it. Of course, we will have difficulties. In my own constituency there is great difficulty. The President of the Board of Trade is to be complimented on setting up working parties to gather information for the purpose of planning industry. However, the Government must give some indication that they intend to do their best to implement the findings of the working parties. Hon. Members opposite have spoken about too many exports. I would point out that there are some imports which we require if we are to carry out the plans which will solve our economic difficulties.
  The main industry in my constituency is the manufacture of linoleum, which cannot be done without linseed oil. The position has been made clear to the President of the Board of Trade. I went out of my way to stress the matter, as did hon. Gentlemen opposite. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must tell us as

  1417
  soon as possible what amounts of linseed oil he is able to make available for the linoleum industry so that they can plan sufficiently ahead. We know that there is a difficult situation at the moment. We must overcome difficult situations. I imagine that with the new season's crop in India he will be in a position to tell us very soon whether or not he can increase the allocation of linseed oil to all industries. In the linoleum industry at the moment many men are suspended. The manufacture of linoleum is of great importance not only to the domestic market, but, to a very large extent, the overseas market. Before the war, the industry depended on overseas trade in order to keep production in full swing. The longer we keep our industry short of the raw materials, the more likely are we to lose our foreign market for linoleum. The reasonable thing to expect is that we should not talk about the shortage of linseed oil but that we should explore every avenue. We shall not explore many avenues by turning back the clock. We shall only do that by moving forward; exploration means to go forward, not backwards. We hope that this problem will be solved.
  My time is very limited. There are many other things about which I would like to have spoken. The question has been asked on many occasions during this Debate, "Can the Government solve this problem?" I suggest that they can and that the people of the country will respond to the appeal of the Government because the Government are inviting them to take part in the plan. This time they are included in the plan. On previous occasions, perhaps that did not apply. The success of a plan depends on how well the plan is known. On the other hand, the success of a plot depends on how little is known. Perhaps hon. Members opposite have plotted instead of planned.
  It is because we have appealed to the public and given an assurance not only to the miners, but to the textile workers, the engineers, the shipbuilders and the workers of all kinds that increased production on this occasion will not mean increased unemployment, increased underemployment and lower wages. The only two suggestions put forward by hon. Members opposite for solving this problem are: increased hours and decreased wages. That is what they mean when they say, "Turn back the clock." The people of
  1418
  this country have had their answer in the form of this White Paper dealing with the economic survey, and I am satisfied that they will accept it.
  In the past those who run industry have spoken of the importance of the miners, of the common people and of the working class only when industry was in a difficulty. Whenever it has been a choice of raduction of profits or of unemployment, it is not profits which have been reduced. We have been talking about the introduction of Polish miners into the coal mines, and we are reminded of an occasion when the Polish coalminers were competing with the miners in this country. The wages of the Polish workers were 45 per cent. lower than ours and that was used by the hon. Members opposite to support their argument that wages should be reduced in this country because of the keen world competition—[An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] An hon. Member opposite says, "Hear, hear "— an indication again that hon. Members opposite are very anxious indeed to see the miners reduced to a position where their wages have to be supplemented by charity. Whatever may be said in the closing speeches of today's Debate and whatever has been said in the speeches so far, the question will not be solved by right hon. Members in this House. The great public outside are the people who will solve this problem.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): Mr. Harold Macmillan.
  Mr. Scollan: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Will you tell us whether it is in any way possible to raise the question of the method of selection of speakers? I want your guidance in order to be able to reason out the matter. How can I raise the matter of hon. Members who have sat here for three days and have not been called?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That would not be in Order. The way in which the Proceedings of the House are conducted and the method of selection of speeches cannot he debated.
  Mr. Scollan: Further to that point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Are you telling me it would not be in Order for you to guide us as to how we should deal with that matter?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If I were to attempt to do so I too would be out of Order.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. As this is probably the last speech on this side of the House, may I ask for your guidance to ascertain whether the Leader of the House or the Prime Minister can tell us if there will be any opportunity for the very large number of back benchers who have not been able to catch your eye to speak in a continuance of this Debate either this week or next?
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a matter upon which I can give any guidance.
  Mr. Lindsay: Further to that point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. It has been proved conclusively in this Debate that very valuable suggestions have come from back benchers on all sides of the House, and the present moment—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of Order.
  8.50 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: I must ask the indulgence of the House and I think I shall have the sympathy of the hon. Member for West Renfrew (Mr. Scollan) in explaining that I am winding up this Debate on behalf of my party owing to the sudden illness of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) who, it had been arranged, should undertake this task. I am, therefore, in the rather unusual position in a House of Commons nearly every Member of which has wanted to speak, but has not been allowed to do so, of being the only person who did not wish to speak, and has been instructed to do so.
  I will be quite frank with hon. Members, I confess that had I known this task was to be placed upon me, I should have listened with perhaps a little closer attention to the homilies which were read to us in the early part of the Debate—I must admit that I dropped off once or twice during the sermon—and I should, of course, have been more au fait with every detail of this situation. However, I have refreshed my memory by trying to study again the White Papers—even the famous "Statistical Digest" which has played such a role today—and have also fortified myself by reading the report of the past two days of this remarkable Debate. Owing to our sitting until eleven o'clock last night, I have not been
  1420
  able to read the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence. I am bound to say that I think neither he nor anybody else will ever reread it, with anything except regret. Our affection on this side of the House—for that is not too strong a word—for the right hon. Gentleman, has been very great. We have come to regard him more as a nautical than as a political figure, and he has endeared himself over a long period to us all. But, of course, I suppose even admirals get a little peppery sometimes, and so we must just take his expression "piffle and poppycock" as a kind of Parliamentary form of some more expressive terminology to which he would otherwise have given vent.
  But I cannot accept the absolute travesty of the account of international problems before the war which he presented to this House. Falsification of history may have done some benefit to the party opposite; it has done no benefit to the body politic. It is, of course, necessary to simplify; sometimes over-simplification is unavoidable; but deliberate misrepresentation, which is what the Minister of Defence made last night, is an absolute scandal. To say that the Conservative Party was responsible for the war is, I think, to be unfair to the memory of Hitler, who had something to do with it; and if there were mistakes made, and of course there were, they were made on all sides. I remember those days very well. I remember the peace ballot, the campaign against rearmament, the Fulham by-election. I remember a few weeks before war broke out, when the whole of the party opposite voted against compulsory service. No, we have been, I should have thought, through too much trouble and too many dark days during the last few years to start the kind of talk which the Minister of Defence raked up again last night. He is too old a friend and colleague of ours for this to be suitable; let him leave this kind of stuff to his new colleagues—I do not know whether they are his friends—the Minister of Health and the Minister of Fuel and Power who have been an equal liability to this country, whether in war or in peace.
  The falsification of history has led to the fallacies of which my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) spoke so well, in his magnificent speech yesterday.

  1421
  These fallacies have prevailed and have been preached for so long; they have been so long the stock in trade of Socialist oratory, that they are now coming home to roost with a grim irony, even in Whitehall, even with the President of the Board of Trade—for, after all, he did not make his political reputation as a moderate. Indeed, he was so extreme that he was thrown out of his party for what I believe was then called "dangerous deviation to the Left."
  These fallacies and untruths fall into many categories. Let us take the question of coal. I listened with amazement to some of the speeches which have been made about coal in the course of this Debate. We are told that the whole trouble, and the inability
  of the coal industry to produce sufficient coal, to produce anything like the amount that was produced in the years before the war, are due to the folly and improvidence of the coalowners. What are the facts? In the 20 years that I have been in the House of Commons between the two wars, at all times the argument against coalowners and the problem that presented itself was that they were producing not too little coal, but too much. All the schemes, the marketing arrangements, the rationalisation and so on, were somehow to overcome the onerous, troublesome productivity of the mining industry.
  That may have been clue to the shortage of demand or to faulty monetary policy both at home and abroad. It may have been due, and I think was due, to the world deflationary situation which was allowed to follow the violent world inflationary situation after the first world war. There may be many people responsible for it. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal tried to fasten it entirely upon my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). He forgot, most conveniently, that the committee that recommended the return to the Gold Standard was set up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the first Socialist Government and had the full support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the second Socialist Government. Whoever else was at fault, it was not the coal-owners' fault. They produced the coal. Those hon. Members opposite who went through that time will agree that the full pressure was for a reduction, and not for an increase in production.
  1422
  What is the second great fallacy which is now coming home to roost? It is all this "piffle and poppycock"—the profit motive. We are told that to seek profits is unethical and un-Christian; that enterprise and energy in the foundation of great businesses is wrong. We are asked to believe that those of us who have inherited or tried to carry on and honour these traditions, are doing something which is wicked and bad, that we are not benefiting but injuring our country because we have sought, through private enterprise, to build up our businesses at home and abroad. It is bad theology, incidentally, as well as bad psychology. But now there is a change. The profit motive is to be re-introduced, of course, under a more respectable name. I believe it is to be called incentive now. Incentive is to take the form of new privileges—a new privileged class, special rations, special exemption from taxation and all kinds of methods. But what do they seek? To what do they appeal? They appeal to man's desire for more money or better conditions, and to nothing else. Therefore, when this new privileged class comes—and it comes sometimes too quickly, and in rather dangerous ways—we shall rewrite the old line: "The commissar in his committee room, and the poor man at his gate."
  The President of the Board of Trade, in a very wonderful exposition, which the whole House appreciated for its breadth and skill, made an appeal to us, setting out the difficulty and complexity of the task, to which we must all jointly put our hands, to try to find some method of making what he called "democratic planning" work, to try to make some middle way between the nineteenth century laissez-faire and a completely totalitarian society. Incidentally, I am surprised and gratified to find how acceptable the middle way is. It has not always been so well received. I agree; it is a difficult task, and if we are to set about it with any possibility of success, we must ask for some concessions to be made from his side as well as from ours. He and his friends are haunted by their past. They cannot now preach unity, national concentration and the Dunkirk spirit, and at the same time continue this propaganda, which is completely out of date and completely fallacious, against private enterprise. It is not a question where

  1423
  the line should be drawn. That has always to be settled upon technical and not upon moral grounds. If on one day it is said that the capitalist and the entrepreneur is a parasite, he cannot be called in and asked to act as a partner on the next. Whether hon. Members opposite like it or not, they must decide which battle is to be fought. Are they in the battle for production, or are they going on with the bitter battle of the class war? Let them make up their minds.
  The Lord Privy Seal, who is not now in his place, was confronted today with a very difficult task. He had to follow one of the most formidable and massive indictments that has ever been made. What did he do? He made no answer. He made a few encouraging noises. As far as I could understand, he implied that the bad weather was a Tory trick, the last crime of Tory misrule. He then went on to say he had got a plan. But he had apparently lost those parts of his notes in which the plan was included. I am bound to say, I felt very sorry for him. He told us, with a certain charm which he always has for us: "Well, we have been running this movement for 50 years. We run it constitutionally. It has been a grand battle. We sprang from the people—most of us," he said, with a certain naivety. "Gradually fewer and fewer of us," he might have added. If I may judge from the latest appointments to the Ministerial bench, unless one has been at Eton or Haileybury one has no chance of getting into a Socialist Government. The right hon. Gentleman might have added: "We have come to the end of our journey. At last this time we have, not only office, but power as well. But at the end of it all we find that Socialism does not work "—with sad results for him. Naturally it has left him in a state of some emotion. We can only share, to the best of our ability, in his sorrow.
  There are, of course, in this White Paper, as has been pointed out, many, many faults. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) pointed out in his excellent speech, it was much better done in the Coalition White Paper of 1944—better written and more explicit. Certainly, this deals with only one year: it was only a short-term policy. We used to be told that in long-term policy and planning lay the great strength of the
  1424
  party opposite. Of course, this White Paper deals with a lot of facts and figures which are made completely out of date by the first two months of 1947. There are no plans, no specific proposals. There is one definite proposal, and only one, and that is to set up again what was, I think, quite foolishly abolished at the end of the war—the joint planning organisation, set up by the former Minister of Production, my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton). That is really all it amounts to—to go back to an organisation which served us very well, and which might well have been kept.
  What this nation wants is something simple and clear. Men and women want to be told what they are to do. If we drift on from crisis to crisis, from the fuel crisis to a food crisis, from the food crisis to another fuel crisis, and then, at last, to a dollar crisis, leading to a starvation crisis—why, then, indeed, the anger of the people will be justified and will be severe.
  There are one or two points which, in the time I am allowed, I should like to put. The past mismanagement of the fuel position has been castigated with such severity by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that there is little for me to add. It is certainly true that never before in our long Parliamentary history could a Minister have survived such incompetence. He has, at least, given us the benefit of his attendance at the end of today's Debate, though he is separated from the President of the Board of Trade by a solid phalanx doubtless as a protection from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's anger. But he has survived not by his position in the Cabinet, not by his position in the House of Commons, but by a kind of extra-Parliamentary power which he has mobilised; and if he had mobilised the fuel resources of the country half as well as he has mobilised forces to keep himself in office, we should have done much less badly.
  As for the future, the 200 million tons are not enough. Can we have some guarantee, since coal is the very life blood, the basis, of all production, that we shall obtain, either by our own production or by purchase from abroad, the necessary amount to keep industry at full blast?

  1425
  What is the use of our going down to our works, and making great appeals to our men to work harder and produce more if, every odd day, we have to stand them off, because we have no power? The thing makes no sense. Coal is the very basis of our industrial life. We must have the coal, either by production or by purchase, if we are not to repeat next year the miserable performance of this year.
  Secondly, I want to raise a point on exports. I cannot understand why we are exporting so much equipment. We are buying very little. We are spending only 3 per cent. of the American Loan on machinery and equipment, against 32 per cent. on tobacco. Why are we exporting so much equipment, and whither are we sending it? The hon. Lady, the Member for Anglesey (Lady Megan Lloyd George) made a very well balanced speech, in which she told us of the two rival parties and of how happy she would be with neither, if both dear charmers were away.
  The hon. Lady made a powerful point that £4 million worth of agricultural machinery had been exported. Tractors are being exported. Where to? To hard
  currency areas, or to soft currency areas? What is the good of exporting the very instruments by which we can produce more food in this country, and then spending our dollars in buying food? Why are we exporting, not only agricultural machinery, but in January alone locomotives worth £300,000, railway wagons and trucks, £495,000, conveyor belting, £1½ million, electric power generators, £500,000? What are the answers to these questions? Unless I misunderstand this "Statistical Digest"—and it was painful to see how the greatest cross-examiner in England wilted beneath the criticism of it —I cannot follow what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said. I think he told us that, only in the war period had we sent any electrical generating machinery to Soviet Russia.
  Sir S. Cripps: We did not send any this year.
  Mr. Macmillan: The Trade and Navigation Returns for 1946 show that, in that year, electrical generating machinery worth £940,000 was exported to the Soviet Union.
  Sir S. Cripps: No; it was a lot left in store, and some of it was cleared out.
  Mr. Macmillan: That is a very disingenuous statement to make to the House.
  1426
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that that was just a hangover from the year before. If this is the basis of the statistics on which the plan is made, I can now understand why we have got into such a frightful condition. I believe that there is a far better policy which will concentrate on keeping at home what is necessary to keep up production here.
  Thirdly, are we going to have some reduction in the national expenditure? Are we going to face the effect of all this inflation, because, if not, it will carry us all away, and make any real re-deployment of our labour quite impossible, so that the whole national plan will be swallowed up in an inflationary situation? Are we going to tell the people frankly what they are expected to do? If we tell them that, they will make the sacrifice that is needed, but we must tell them frankly, with fair and honest reasons. What is the difference between the present time and the time of war, when we were colleagues together? What alarms me on this question is the verbiage of the language used. Let us take the famous directive—paragraph 136. Is it better, in the mining industry, the printing industry, the electrical and many other industries, to come now to a shorter week, a shorter number of days, and trust to get the higher production; or is it better, for a short time longer, to work longer hours? That is the problem that posed itself in the war, and it has posed itself again.
  I have heard, in the same month, two Ministers of the Crown make two absolutely contradictory promises of what is likely to happen in the mining industry. The President of the Board of Trade, on 26th February, said:
  "Taking it by and large, and with the five day week coming in, probably in the middle of the year, or whenever it is, we shall not be able to get much more than 200 million tons this year."—[OFFICIAT REPORT, 26th February, 5947; Vol. 433, C. 2117.]
  When the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that, with the five day week coming in, not more than this figure would be reached, he must have meant that the five day week would restrict production. Yesterday, the Minister of Labour told us that the Government had decided that they could only produce the amount if the present six-day week arrangements are modified, and, after all, we have, rightly or wrongly, to look to the manage-

  1427
  ment of this immense nationalised industry. What is the directive they have received? All they got was:
  "The nation cannot afford shorter hours of work unless this can be shown to increase output per man year."
  Shown by whom? Demonstrated by what method? To whom, and by whom? Shown by a posteriori reasoning, or by a priori reasoning? What does it mean? Was that the kind of direction given to Field-Marshal Alexander? Were those the directions under which generals were asked to launch their campaigns? Were they told, "You will, on the one hand, be asked to attack the enemy, and, on the other, not to lose a man." What does it mean? What use is it? If one were sitting on the board—a non-political, ordinary man—and received this directive, would one say, "By Jove, this answers all my problems"?This is passing the buck" on a scale unique in history, and it is deplorably weak at such a time.
  I have undertaken to leave the Prime Minister—and he will require it—a longish period in which to reply to the formidable indictment that has been made. I want to know what attitude
  the Government are going to take. What is the real final plan, that they are going to put before the people? And I would say this. Consider how far we have dropped from 1945. It is terrible to go out of the country, and to find what ordinary people abroad think of what is happening here. We know that it is not true; we know that we have the power within us still, to build ourselves again as a great people. We know that this is not really an economic, but a moral, problem. We cannot, of course, solve, altogether by ourselves, the problem of the balance of payments. There are pressing problems, but if we face them honestly, and do everything that we can within our own economy, then we shall be in a strong position to ask, if it is necessary, further aid from our American Allies. But if we do not take any action, and if we allow ourselves to drift along, what right have we to appeal to the further assistance of the world?
  The problem of this Government is really this. They have had one great difficulty from the start: they never expected to get in. It has been a shock to them, from which they have not wholly re-
  1428
  covered. Faced with ever-deepening cares, some of them—and we much regret it—are breaking up under the strain. Some of them are just watching, knowing how bad the position is, and knowing, in their hearts, how much stronger remedies ought to be applied. But they cannot apply those remedies. They are imprisoned by their past; and they have made great mortgages to the future, and they have to let this thing go, to what looks like an inevitable crash. They cannot rouse themselves. The people are puzzled. Many of them are rather baffled. They do not understand what is happening. Unless they are overcome by a sort
  of creeping paralysis of apathy, and disillusionment, they will come to the end of their patience, and there will rise again the cry which I have heard in this House, and which was the prelude to the greatest Administration in our history:
  "If you cannot govern, in God's name go."
  9.19 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I am sure the whole House will agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) in regretting the absence from our Debate this evening of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley), and particularly its cause. He has our sympathy, and so has the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley, because the right hon. Gentleman is a very eminent exponent of planning, the middle way, and I am sure, if he had had more time, he would have been able to give us a very useful contribution to our Debate. It may be because, to use his own picturesque metaphor, some of his stock in trade may have come home to roost, but I thought he hardly did himself justice. I would only say with regard to his earlier remarks that I think he was too hard on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) because he condemned in the very strongest possible way a statement which he made and which was quoted by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. The trouble arose through the quotation of a statement by his leader.
  We have had three days devoted to this very important question, the economic position of the nation. In old times it was quite customary in this House for a whole day to be spent, or two days, on the Motion to call attention to the state of the nation. I think it is a very useful thing that we should have one. Very

  1429
  thoughtful and helpful speeches have been made on both sides of the House. I could cite a number of them, but I will only mention three, and to be impartial, one from each party. There was a very notable speech by the right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for the City of London (Sir A. Duncan). There was an extremely able and thoughtful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for the Hulme Division of Manchester (Mr. Lee), and there was a very interesting speech by the noble Lady the Member for Anglesey (Lady Megan Lloyd George). I could have wished that the whole of these three days had been devoted to the general topic of the plan, but in this Debate the Leader of the Opposition has injected his Vote of Censure. Well, I do not complain of that at all; he had given us notice some weeks ago that he wanted a Vote of Censure, he had no particular reason for it at the time, but this seemed to be a very good occasion for bringing it in, and he likes this form of oratorical exercise. We all enjoy hearing him do his stuff, but I do not think he contributed very much to the serious side of the Debate, although there are some points with which I shall be dealing in the course of my remarks.
  He always amuses me a little because he always gets up with such an air of injured innocence. He is always the man who is superior to party, yet we had not been in office for more than, I think, four months before he tabled a Vote of Censure, and he had the same cry then as he has today. His complaint is always this, "Why cannot you follow a Conservative Party policy, and then we will support you?" He always seems to regard whatever views he holds as essentially above and beyond party—an amiable characteristic that has carried him through a long and varied career. He complained rather bitterly that the "Daily Herald" was partisan. He is a great reader of the newspapers, and I am sure he sees all the anti-Labour Press. Those papers do not mince their words about the Labour Party. I would not say that they are entirely free from envy, hatred, malice, and all uncharitableness. It is a fact that there is a continuous stream of denigration. One expects that in party organs, within certain limits, provided that they have due regard to the good of the country.
  I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman emphasised the patriotism of his party in
  1430
  accepting the Measure which I had the honour of introducing during the war for the control of all property and persons. He said that it was very patriotic. I quite agree, but it was equally patriotic for Members on this side to accept those restrictions. Surely, unless we think that property is more important than persons, the honours are even. Therefore, I do not see why there was any need for that exclusive claim.
  I desire now to turn to the general course of the Debate and to look at some of the principal points that have emerged. I think the first two days showed rather a larger measure of agreement than might have been expected. Few, if any, voices were raised for a complete return to economic anarchy. The hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) will have to remain a lonely figure, roosting on a perch up there on the back benches.
  Sir Waldron Smithers: May I remind the Prime Minister of a speech that I made 21 years ago? He has been compelled in the White Paper to confess that I was right.
  The Prime Minister: I shall have to look it up. There has been general acceptance of the principle of democratic planning. There are no advocates here of the totalitarian State; at least, they were not vocal in the Debate. There were no advocates actually in the Debate—I had already referred to the exception—who believed that we could do away with all controls. I believe there was one unguarded reference by the right hon. Member for Woodford. "Away with controls," I think it was, more a flourish than an argument.
  Mr. Churchill: What did I say?
  The Prime Minister: I would not pin myself to the exact words. It was thrown off by the way and was something like "Let us get rid of all these controls"; but I do not want to press it against the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Churchill: What I deprecated was control for control's sake.
  The Prime Minister: I will bear in mind that point of unity between us. The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), who has a great deal of experience of administration, pointed out the danger of trying to make too

  1431
  detailed and too elaborate a plan. I think he, therefore, rather answered the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), with his talk of blueprints. I think that the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery wanted something more elaborate. Especially is this true of a time of dislocation and resettlement, following a great war. Inevitably, in our planning, we must take account of many unknown factors. There must be a great deal of flexibility. The suggestion that we could get a complete blueprint, even before the war ended, woud have been rejected, I think, by any Member of the wartime Government.
  There had to be a considerable amount of latitude in regard to the kind of conditions of that time. During those 18 months we had to have regard to the foreign situation, the delays over peace treaties, and the difficulties of occupation. All those affected the question of the Defence Forces, which we would like to keep as low as possible, but in the settling of which we have to have regard to our responsiblities, which we cannot get rid of. Then there was the long and rather anxious uncertainty about the American Loan. If we had not got the American Loan, we would obviously have had to plan on a different basis. Above all, we were planning at a difficult time, when there were many shortages, shortages of food and attempts to get food, not only for this country, but for many countries for which we are responsible, Malaya, India and Ceylon. We had to have many diversions of goods to get the food produced to help those people. All those things would cut across any blueprint plan put down long before.
  Again, in the agricultural programme, we were hampered by inability to get hold of feedingstuffs, and in housing we could have a most wonderful plan, but we had to consider the timber situation. It was the same with transport. In transport we had the difficulty of getting sleepers. All those points had to be present in the minds of planners, and we had to adapt our plan to those circumstances. I think this is an overriding factor in the situation, which was very well brought out by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Eccles) when he said that much of the controls are necessary in the face of inflationary pressure, which must be kept
  1432
  in check. If we had abundance, we would not need these controls. That is perfectly true. It is the question of shortages that makes control necessary, and it is also true to say—there was a good deal of talk about purchasing power —that everyone in the wartime Government realised that if we were able to build up an impending mass of purchasing power, that might sweep down all barriers to inflation, unless very careful controls were kept on. In a time of shortage, unless we are prepared to let the strong get everything, and the weak go to the wall, we had to have rationing. But, if we had rationing, we must have it enforced, or an enormous black market. Therefore, if we are enforcing rationing, we must have swollen Government staffs. We would all like to see a reduction in Government staffs. Many of these staff increases are due to the aftermath of war, and many of them are due to shortages necessitating rationing. Some others are due to the taking over of functions which were formerly carried on by outside agencies.
  I will revert for a moment to the question of shortages, because that brings me back to some of the statements of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. Those statements seemed to me to be based on misapprehensions of fact, or, perhaps, on a misunderstanding of statistics. He again repeated the old exploded canard about the Lord President's visit to the United States of America. That was very fully explained in the House. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was present. It was very fully explained at the time, but there crept into the right hon. Gentleman's statement a delusion that we were able to get what food we pleased, even if it were only with borrowed money. That is not the position in the world today. When we go to the people who have food, and allocations are made, we try to get what allocations we can. As a matter of fact, we got allocations for ourselves, but we also did not neglect the claims of others for whom we are responsible, for the Colonies and for occupied Germany. I must say I was rather shocked by what the right hon. Gentleman said. His comparison of the rations was, as I say, a mistake of statistics. He was comparing not like with like. He was taking the ration of a heavy

  1433
  worker in Germany as compared with the ordinary one over here. What did shock me rather was that he thought we ought to take everything for ourselves and let other people go hang. That has not been the attitude of either side in this House. We have been pressed over and over again that it is our duty not to allow starvation in Germany. We have a very hard task. This pressure does come down very heavily on everybody. We are endeavouring to maintain the strength of cur people but we cannot stand by in this country, and if the Government did not act the general public would. We are bound to relieve this suffering.
  I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman ever really knew what the condition of a great many people in this country was between the wars. I say he never knew because I know the right hon. Gentleman so well. He has an intense sympathy with suffering, and I am perfectly certain if he went over to any place for which we were responsible, and saw people suffering from lack of food, he would come back and demand that we should help them. I do not think he knew what the conditions were in the mining villages, in the depressed areas or in the East End of London, or he would never have suggested that people were better fed before the war than they are now.
  Let us turn to coal. There, again, the right hon. Gentleman does not seem to appreciate the fact of shortage. He said, "Why do you not go and buy some coal? Get some coal from America." That is the nice old-fashioned way in which we were brought up, that if we had the money we could go to the shop and get it. At the crucial time we could not get coal from America. There were big strikes there, strikes in the coal industry, strikes in transport, and what little driblets of coal they had, of a very inferior quality, was going to the Continent of Europe. I was being appealed to by State after State to see if we could supply any coal because they were hard hit. That is why we could not accept that offer to divert to this country the coal which was going to the Continent, because we had to take into account the position of others. If we can get coal from abroad during this coming year to relieve our necessity, by all means we will do it. It is not very easy to get the coal, any more than it is
  1434
  easy to get the food, because there are very few places from which they can come, and they are being very carefully allotted.
  The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) made an interesting speech in which he also raised one point about which I think he was misled. I think he was mistaken about feedingstuffs. Again, feedingstuffs are subject to allocation by international bodies. They are not our feedingstuffs. We have to get them, and there is a world shortage, and the allocations are made. Broadly speaking, all the prior allocations go to feeding human beings before chickens, even if they are Yugoslays. That is the position. The right hon. Gentleman was— I may say that I inquired into this—misled by the statement in the "Daily Telegraph." The statement was, I gather, that there were 5,000,000 tons of maize which we had refused. I understand that that is about the total exportable surplus. We are unlikely to get it all. As a matter of fact, there was no question of this 5,000,000 tons. We are getting what we can from them. The right hon. Gentleman was obviously misled by a mistake in a newspaper.
  The fact is that in a world such as we are living in today, even if we have the money or we can borrow the money, we cannot get the goods. We are living in a world of shortages. It is in these shortages that we have to plan. I want to say just a word or two about planning. I agree so much with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley that it was a pity that during the Caretaker Government the machinery that had been set up for this was destroyed. I find in these last three days that there is general agreement on the type of planning which is suited to the economic and political conditions of this country. What we require are rot plans conceived by a Government in isolation, implemented by a Government by compulsion, but plans worked out in consultation with both sides of industry and willingly carried out under the general guidance of the Government. We are not blind to the difficulties of planning, but this is—and we recognise it—a great experiment. This is democratic planning.
  We have been criticised because the Survey we presented is confined to 1947 and because we have not yet laid a long-

  1435
  term plan, a five-year plan. The fact that we have not yet laid a plan for five years does not mean in the least that we are not working on it. That plan takes a lot of working out. We have to ascertain and study the requirements of all our chief industries and bring the results of those studies together. Not until we have done that have we got the basic material for a long-term plan. That preliminary work is already advanced, but as soon as we have reached a certain stage we then need the help of industry as a whole in considering these problems. My right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade informed the House that we intend to suggest to the various organisations the formation of a small board working with the Government's planning staffs. That was taken in some quarters to mean that that was the only amount of consultation that would take place. Far from it. That consultation is going on all the time. We want the full co-operation of industry and of labour. One cannot substitute consultation through, a small board or a large board or one central organisation, for consultation with individual industries in regard to their own particular problems.
  Let me say that when I heard, as I did hear, hon. Members stress the need for consultation with industry, I carried my mind back to the scorn with which the first proposals of my right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade for working parties were treated. Yet they proved very successful. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am sure if hon. Members have read their reports they have found them most valuable. A great deal of consultation has taken place on these lines.
  There was some talk about the Monnet plan. I know M. Monnet. I have great admiration for M. Monnet. I am quite sure that M. Monnet did not proceed to evolve a plan out of various suggestions made by various groups. I am quite sure that M. Monnet had the general outline of his plan well in hand before he approached the various industrialists and workers to whom reference has been made. But even if that were so, we should be wise not to copy too slavishly the plan of another country where the conditions are very different from our own. I think I am right in saying that in France they have not got the kind of
  1436
  consultation between the two sides of industry that we have developed in this country over so many years. They also had, their whole governmental machine shattered by the occupation, and I would also say that there has been a certain discontinuity in French administration which rather militated against planning by a Government. We must proceed on our own lines.
  May I remind the House of two things? For the first time in our history an attempt has been made to produce a plan of this kind in peacetime. In the planning that we did under the Coalition Government, in the planning we have done under this Government, for the first time in our history we are trying to plan for the whole of the people—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—for a standard of life for every one and for abolishing the submerged tenth or the submerged fifth, the existence of which was an essential feature of the economic organisation of the old days. In the old days they said that the machine worked itself, but when the machine was maladjusted, the trouble all fell on the people at the bottom. In such planning, it is difficult to avoid some degree of maladjustment. I am not going to pretend for a moment that there has not been some maladjustment. The success of demobilisation, the speed of the reabsorption into industry and the starting of industry, the housing and repair work, have made a very big demand for coal, bricks, steel and all the rest. The great pressure on all kinds of raw materials has undoubtedly overstrained our present production of fuel, and our resources in generating plant.
  If we had not pressed on with our programme, we might have had enough fuel to keep those wheels going slowly—and a mass of unemployment, a reduced standard of life and generally a far worse psychology, than we have today. I can remember the psychology in the year and a half following the first world war. It is upon the industrial factor—the coal industry—that was grossly neglected and mishandled during the inter-war period that this strain has come. We are paying for past neglect. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am not denying that a good deal of this was due to inevitable war conditions, the fact that we had no young men coming into the industry and that we had older workers, the lack of development and the lack of repairs and

  1437
  machinery in the war period. The fact is that, apart from anything with regard to the material equipment of the mines, the most serious hangover from the inter-war period, was the psychology of the worker in the mines.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. B. Taylor), in a very clear and temperate speech, pointed out just what had happened in the mining areas, the fact that throughout the mining areas there was despair and that every one, teachers, parents and all, told people not to go into the mines. We cannot get over that psychology all at once, and I do not believe that any thoughtful person, looking at the events of the last 25 years, or looking even further back, can doubt that we should never get the psychology of the miners right, as long as We had the private ownership system in the mines. I think it was a pity that the tight hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) did not grasp this opportunity during the war. He put a ban on all schemes of nationalisation.
  I think he was over-timid in regard to the party behind him. I think they have moved a good deal further than he has. I think he tended to look back to the past of the Conservative Party as he knew it years ago. If he had come forward boldly and said to his own party, "When the war ends, I expect to come back again, I expect to have the responsibility. We shall at once have this coal trouble. Had we better not deal with it in the war?"; if he had appealed to them, and said, "This is a vital factor. I have great plans for housing "—he had great plans for housing—" You cannot have all those houses unless you get fuel going"; if he had done that, he would have done a great and statesmanlike service by declaring for nationalisation. Yet, because we stand for nationalisation, we are told we are just following party ideologies. When, despite the clear facts of the
  situation, the right hon. Gentleman refuses to go in for nationalisation that, of course, is not party ideology. I do not believe there is anybody on the benches opposite who believes—
  Mr. Churchill: It was the agreement on which the national Coalition was formed, that there should be no controversial legislation except on subjects necessary to the prosecution of the war.
  The Prime Minister: I quite agree. We had to come in, and do all our planning, and all our work on the basis that the general structure must be kept on the Conservative lines. The right hon. Gentleman cannot complain if, now that we have come in, we want it done on our lines. I am sure he would do exactly the same thing. I am glad to see, as I expected, that he is taking a patriotic view. He says, in effect, "Just as you came in during the war, and agreed to accept a capitalistic basis of society, so now that in this House you have a Socialist majority, I am willing to support you in your socialistic endeavours."
  Mr. Churchill: Of course, there was an overwhelming common cause in saving ourselves from destruction.
  The Prime Minister: I agree, and the right hon. Gentleman gave us some very fine oratory today emphasising the fact that we have a common cause today. The fact is that that is exactly where the right hon. Gentleman has made his mistake—in thinking that nationalisation is a mere fad. He imagines that nationalisation is desired for nationalisation's sake. It is not so; it has never been so put forward in any Socialist writing; it is simply a means to an end. [Interruption.] It is a means to an end, and the ends of the Socialist movement have been set out over and over again, in various papers, and they are: a fine standard of life for all people, and putting the interests of the community before that of certain private property interests.
  Therefore, looking at this weak point in our industrial structure, quite apart from the technical reasons which have been set out in Commission after Commission, for the psychological reason—and the right hon. Gentleman quite rightly stressed the importance of psychological attitudes—of getting coal, the right thing was to go ahead with nationalisation. If only we had done that during the war, we should have been in the position to get coal production going. Unfortunately, this difficulty has overtaken us of the great demand coming before reorganisation has gone to its full extent. Precisely the same thing applies to transport and electricity. Here may I refer to the bitter attack which the right hon. Gentleman made upon me? He referred to what he described as a very disgraceful speech that I made. It was not a widely reported speech. The only

  1439
  thing reported was that I said we wanted to continue to carry out our Socialist policy. I am sure that 40 years ago the right hon. Gentleman, speaking on a platform, would not have felt ashamed of saying, "I intend to carry out a Liberal policy," and five years ago, "I intend to carry out a Conservative policy." There is nothing wrong in saying that. I say today that this policy of ours is one in which we believe, not because it is a party fad but because we believe it is the best way of organising these particular factors in the economic life of the nation.
  I have never yet failed to stress the difficulties of the present situation. I did not fail to stress them in a broadcast speech which I made at the Election. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities is probably too busy —I do not complain—to read speeches of Members of the Government in various parts of the country, but I have frequently used the simile—not the ice simile which the right hon Gentleman quoted—which I used at the meeting where I addressed a large gathering of trade unionists in Manchester, where the main theme that I used was that for years we had been fighting to see who should get the largest slice of the loaf, and that today the vitally important thing was to increase the size of the loaf because I believed we were now in a position to give everybody an adequate share. That is putting the matter in simple language. I have stressed that point very often. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think these things were never said. They were said constantly all through the day all over the country. With regard to the others, I am afraid I have not time to go through all of them. I thought some of them were truisms and some of them were fallacies. Some of them were half and half.
  We have heard a good deal about the profit motive and the question of incentive. Of course, one must have an incentive. But incentive, I hope, is never one solely for private interest. Private interest and public interest should be mingled, and in our planning we are not suggesting that the profit motive should not operate at all. On the contrary, we have today two great sectors of industry. One sector is nationalised, the other is in private hands. What I was surprised to hear was that it was
  1440
  thought to be akin to profit to insist that there should be proper conditions of work in order to attract people into industry. Today, over and over again, we are paying the penalty of the past. Important industries were grossly reactionary in the past in their attitude towards labour conditions, as every good employer will admit. It has always been one of the troubles with the party opposite—not all of them, but a great many of them. They have always been afraid to deal with the black sheep because they thought they might kill the white, and for years and years they would not touch the slums because they were afraid of interfering with the rights of property. They were afraid very often to attack the worst conditions in industry because they were afraid it would be an interference with private enterprise. Today we have plenty of examples of thoroughly up-to-date people who understand the psychology of the workers and who know that the vital element in getting increased production is to get the right spirit and the team spirit among the workers. But it will take a long time to get some of these backward firms up to date.
  I entirely agree with the statement made, and I cannot see why the right hon. Gentleman cavilled so violently at what I think was a perfectly simple statement, quite obvious to anybody, with regard to hours of labour. We cannot afford shorter hours throughout this country unless we can get full production. But over and over again it has been demonstrated that in many instances shorter hours do lead to greater production.
  Our object in putting out this economic White Paper is to set before the country —I think very fairly and clearly—what are the facts of the position. I am sorry that in some quarters it should be taken as a mere prophecy of disaster. It is not. It is a challenge to effort. The right hon. Gentleman talks about our position in the world. There are a good many people, who ought to know better, who go from this country to the United States, and elsewhere, and talk down this
  country. That was reported to me
  by Conservative friends of mine who deplored it. My final word is this. We are asking for an effort by the whole of the country, by the workers, industrialists and the Government—everybody.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 374; Noes, 198.

  Division No. 109.

  AYES.

  [10 p.m.

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Deer, G.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Allighan, Garry

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Irving, W. J.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Diamond, J.

  Janner, B.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Dobbie, W.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Donovan, T.

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  John, W.

  Ayles, W. H.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

  Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

  Dumpleton, C. W.

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Durbin, E. F. M.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Baird, J.

  Dye, S.

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Balfour, A

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Edelman, M.

  Keenan, W.

  Barstow, P. G.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Kendall, W. D.

  Barton, C.

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Kenyon, C.

  Battley, J. R.

  Edwards, 'W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Key, C. W.

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  King, E. M.

  Belcher, J. W.

  Evans, John (Ogmore)

  Kingdom, Sqn,-Ldr. E.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Kinley, J.

  Benson, G.

  Ewart, R.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Berry, H.

  Fairhurst, F.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Beswick, F.

  Farthing, W. J.

  Lang, G.

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Lavers, S.

  Binns, J.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Blackburn, A. R.

  Follick, M.

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Foot, M. M.

  Leonard, W.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Forman, J. C.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Boardman, H.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Lever, N. H.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

  Levy, B. W.

  Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

  Gaitskell, H. T. N.

  Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Gallacher, W.

  Lewis, J. (Bolton)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Gibbins, J.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Bramall, Major E. A.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Lindsay, K. M. (Comb'd Eng. Univ.)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Gilzean, A.

  Lipson, D. L.

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Gooch, E. G.

  Longden, F.

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Bruce, Mai. D. W. T.

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  McAdam, W.

  Buchanan, G

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  McAllister, G.

  Burden, T. W.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

  Mc Entee, V. La T.

  Burke, W. A

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Grenfell, D. R.

  McGovern, J

  Callaghan, James

  Grey, C. F.

  Mack, J. D.

  Carmichael, James

  Grierson, E.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

  Chamberlain, R. A.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Champion, A. J.

  Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Chafer, D.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  McLeavy, F.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Gunter, R. J

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Clitherow, Dr. R

  Guy, W. H.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Cobb, F. A

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Cocks, F. S.

  Hale, Leslie

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Coldrick, W

  Hall, W. G.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Collick, P.

  Hamilton, Lieut. -Col. R

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Collindridge, F.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Collins, V. J.

  Hardman, D. R.

  Marquand H. A.

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Harrison, J

  Mathers, G.

  Cook, T. F.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Medland, H. M.

  Cooper, Wing-Cmdr. G.

  Haworth, J.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Messer, F.

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Corvedale, Viscount

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R

  Cove, W. G.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Crawley, A.

  Hicks, G

  Monslow, W.

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S

  Hobson, C. R.

  Montague F.

  Grossman, R. H. S.

  Holman, P

  Moody, A. S.

  Daggar, G.

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Daines, P.

  House, G.

  Motley, R.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Hoy, J.

  Morris, P, (Swansea, W.)

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Hubbard, T.

  Mort, D. L.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Hudson. J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Moyle, A.

  Mulvey, A.

  Scollan, T.

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Murray, J. D.

  Segal, Dr. S.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Nally, W.

  Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Naylor, T. E

  Sharp, Granville

  Usborne, Henry

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Viant, S. P.

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Walkden, E.

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Shurmer, P.

  Walker, G. H.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

  Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

  O'Brien, T.

  Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

  Warbey, W. N.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Orbach M.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Watson, W. M.

  Paget, R. T.

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

  Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Weitzman, D.

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  West, D. G.

  Parker, J.

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

  Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Snow, Capt. J. W.

  White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Solley, L. J.

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Wigg, Col. G. E.

  Pearson, A.

  Soskiee, Maj. Sir F.

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

  Peart, Capt. T. F.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Wilkes, L.

  Piratin, P.

  Stamford, W.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Plaits-Mills, J. F. F.

  Steele, T.

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

  Stephen, C.

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Popplewell, E.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Stokes, R. R.

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Strauss, G. R.(Lambeth, N.)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Price, M. Philips

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Stubbs, A, E.

  Williamson, T.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Willis, E.

  Pursey, Cmdr. H

  Swingler, S.

  Wills, Mrs. E. A.

  Randall, H. E.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.

  Ranger, J.

  Symonds, A. L.

  Wilson, J. H.

  Rankin, J

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Reeves, J.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Woodburn, A.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Woods, G. S.

  Rhodes, H

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Wyatt, W.

  Richards, R.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Yates, V. F.

  Robens, A

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

  Thurtle, E.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  Tiffany, S.

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Timmons, J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Royle, C.

  Titterington, M. F.

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. R. J. Taylor.

  Sargood, R.

  Tolley, L.

  NOES.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

  Grimston, R. V.

  Aitken, Hon. Max

  Crowder, Capt. John E.

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Amory, D. Heathcoat

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Harris, H. Wilson

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

  De la Bere, R.

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Digby, S. W.

  Haughton, S. G.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Baxter, A. B.

  Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

  Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

  Herbert, Sir A. P.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Bennett, Sir P.

  Duncan, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (City of Lond.)

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Birch, Nigel

  Duthie, W. S.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Eccles, D. M.

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Boothby, R.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Howard, Hon. A.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. Waller

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Bower, N.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L

  Kurd, A.

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

  Fox, Sir G.

  Jarvis, Sir J.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Butcher, H. W.

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Jennings, R.

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Carson, E.

  Gage, C.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Challen, C.

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Channon, H.

  Gammans, L. D.

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Gates, Maj. E. E.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G,

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

  Grant, Lady

  Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

  Crookshank, Capt, Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  1444

  1445

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Snadden, W. M

  Low, Brig. A. R. W.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Spence, H. R.

  Lucas, Major Sir J.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. O.

  Osborne, C

  Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

  MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Studholme, H. G.

  McCallum, Maj. D.

  Peto, Brig. C. H M

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Pickthorn, K.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A (P'dd't'n, S.)

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Teeling, William

  Maclay, Hon. J S.

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  MacLeod, J.

  Prescott, Stanley

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Manmouth)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

  Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Raikes, H. V.

  Touche, G. C.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Vane, W. M, F.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Marples, A. E.

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Ward, Hon. G. R.

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

  Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Renton, D.

  Wobbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

  Marshall, S H. (Sutton)

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

  Maude, J. C.

  Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclasall)

  White, Sir D. (Fareham)

  Medlicott, F.

  Robertson, Sir D. (Strealham)

  White, J. B. (Canterbury)

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Morris-Jones, Sir H.

  Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

  Willink, Rt. Hon. H. U.

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Sanderson, Sir F.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Savory, Prof. D. L.

  Winterton, Rt. Ron Earl

  Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

  Scott, Lord W.

  York, C.

  Mullan, Lt. C. H.

  Shephard, S. (Newark)

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Nicholson, G.

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Nield, B (Chester)

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Mr James Stuart and

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.

  Main Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 371; Noes, 204.

  Division No. 110.]

  AYES.

  [10.12p.m.

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Burden, T. W

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Burke, W. A.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Dumpleton, C. W.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Callaghan, James

  Durbin, E. F. M.

  Allen, Scholeneld (Crewe)

  Carmichael, James

  Dye, S

  Allighan, Garry

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Chamberlain, R. A

  Edelman, M.

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Champion, A. J.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Attewell, H. C.

  Chater, D.

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Chetwynd, G. R

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Clitherow, Dr. R

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Ayles, W. H.

  Cobb, F. A.

  Evans, John (Ogmore)

  Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

  Cocks, F. S.

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Coldrick, W

  Ewart, R.

  Baird, J.

  Collick, P.

  Fairhurst, F.

  Balfour, A.

  Collindridge, F.

  Farthing, W. J

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Collins, V. J.

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Barstow, P. G.

  Colman, Miss G. M

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Barton, C.

  Comyns, Dr. L

  Follick, M.

  Battley, J. R.

  Cook, T. F.

  Foot, M. M.

  Bechervaise, A. E,

  Cooper, Wing-Cmdr. G.

  Forman, J. C.

  Belcher, J. W.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

  Fraser, T (Hamilton)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

  Benson, G.

  Corvedale, Viscount

  Gaitskell, H. T N.

  Berry, H.

  Cove, W. G

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Beswick, F

  Crawley, A.

  Gibbins, J.

  Bing, G. H. C

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S

  Gibson, C. W

  Binns, J.

  Grossman, R. H. S

  Gilzean, A.

  Blackburn, A. R

  Daggar, G

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Daines, P.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Boardman, H.

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Greenwood, A. W J. (Heywood)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Grey, C. F.

  Bramall, Major E. A.

  Deer, G.

  Grierson, E.

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  De Freitas, Geoffrey

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Diamond, J.

  Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Debbie, W.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  Bruce, Mai. D. W. T.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Gunter, R. J.

  Buchanan, G.

  Donovan, T

  Guy, W. H

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Hale, Leslie

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

  Hall, W. G.

  Marquand, H. A.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Hamilton, Lieut. -Col. R.

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Mathers, G.

  Snow, Capt. J. W.

  Hardman, D. R.

  Medland, H. M.

  Solley, L. J.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Harrison, J.

  Messer, F.

  Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Haworth, J.

  Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

  Stamford, W.

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Steele, T.

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Monslow, W.

  Stephen, C.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Montague, F.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Moody, A. S.

  Stokes, R. R.

  Hicks, G.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Hobson, C R.

  Morley, R.

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Holman, P.

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Stubbs, A. E.

  Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)

  Mort, D L.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  House, G.

  Moyle, A.

  Swingler, S.

  Hoy, J.

  Mulvey, A.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Hubbard, T

  Murray, J. D

  Symonds, A. L.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Nally, W.

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Thomson, Rt Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

  Irving, W. J.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

  Thorneycrofl, Harry (Clayton)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Thurtle, E.

  Janner, B.

  O'Brien, T.

  Tiffany, S.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Timmons, J.

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Orbach, M.

  Titterington, M. F.

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Tolley, L.

  John, W.

  Paling, Rt. Han. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Usborne, Henry

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Parker, J.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Viant, S. P.

  Keenan, W.

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Walkden, E.

  Kendall, W. D.

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Walker, G. H.

  Kenyon, C.

  Pearson, A.

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Key, C. W.

  Peart, Capt. T. F.

  Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.

  King, E. M.

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

  Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

  Watkins, T. E.

  Kinley, J.

  Pepplewell, E.

  Watson, W. M.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Weitzman, D.

  Lang, G.

  Price, M. Philips

  Wells P L (Faversham)

  Lavers, S.

  Pritt, D. N.

  Wells W. T. (Walsall)

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Proctor, W. T.

  West, D. G

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Westwood Rt. Hon. J

  Leonard, W.

  Randall, H. E.

  White, C, F. (Derbyshire, W.)

  Leslie, J. R.

  Ranger, J.

  White H. (Derbyshire N.E.)

  Lever, N. H.

  Rankin, J.

  Wigg, Col. G. E.

  Levy, B. W.

  Reeves, J.

  Wilcock, Group-apt. C. A. B.

  Lewis, A W. J. (Upton)

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Lewis, J. (Bolton)

  Rhodes, H.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Richards, R

  Willey, F. T (Sunderland)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Robens, A

  Willy, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Lindsay, K. M. (Comb'd Eng. Univ.)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Lipson, D. L.,

  Robertson, J. J, (Berwick)

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don valley)

  Longden, F.

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Williams, W. R (Heston)

  Lyne, A. W.

  Royle, C.

  Williamson, T

  MrAdam, W

  Sargood, R.

  Willis E.

  McAllister, G.

  Scollan, T.

  Wills, Mrs. E. A.

  McEntee, V. La T

  Segal, Dr. S.

  Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.

  McGhee, H. G

  Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.

  Wilson, J. H.

  McGovern, J.

  Sharp, Granville

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Mack, J. D.

  Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

  Woodburn, A.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Woods, G. S.

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Wyatt, W.

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Shurmer, P.

  Yates, V. F.

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  McLeavy, F.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington),

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

  Zilliacus, K.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. R. T. Taylor.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  1448

  1449

  NOES.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G

  Nield, B (Chester)

  Aitken, Hon. Max

  Grant, Lady

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

  Amory, D. Heathcoat

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Nutting, Anthony

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.)

  Grimston, R. V.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

  Gruffydd, Prof. W. J.

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Osborne, C.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O

  Barlow, Sir J

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Peto, Brig. C. H. M

  Baxter, A. B.

  Haughton, S. G.

  Pickthorn, K.

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Beechman, N. A

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Bennett, Sir P.

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Birch, Nigel

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Prescott, Stanley

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. O. C. (Wells)

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

  Boothby, R.

  Hollis, M. C.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

  Bossom, A. C.

  Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

  Raikes, H. V.

  Bowen, R.

  Howard, Hon A.

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Bower, N.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesoury)

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Hunt, A.

  Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C (Hillhead)

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Renton, D.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col- W

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Jarvis, Sir J.

  Roberts, H. (Handsworth)

  Butcher, H. W.

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'flr'n W'ld'n)

  Jennings, R.

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Byers, Frank

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

  Robertson, Sir D, (Streatham)

  Carson, E

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Challen, C.

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Channon, H.

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H

  Sanderson, Sir F.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S

  Lambert, Hon. G

  Savory, Prof. D. L.

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Scott, Lord W.

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Shephard, S. (Newark)

  Corrant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

  Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E)

  Snadden, W. M.

  Crosthwaile-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Spence, H. R.

  Crowder, Capt. John E

  Low, Brig. A. R. W.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Lucas, Major Sir J.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

  Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

  Studholme, H. G.

  De la Bçre, R.

  MacAndrsw, Col. Sir C.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Digby, S. W.

  McCallum, Maj. D.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

  Taylor, Vice-Adm E. A (P'dd'l'n, S)

  Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

  Teeling, William

  Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G (Penrith)

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Thomas, J. P. L (Hereford)

  Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

  Maclay, Hon. J. S

  Thorneycroft, G E. P. (Monmouth)

  Drayson, G. B.

  MacLeod, J.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N

  Duncan, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (City of Lond.)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F

  Duthie, W. S.

  Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

  Touche, G. C

  Eccles, D. M.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E

  Wadsworth, G.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. Waller

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Maples, A. E.

  Ward, Hon. G. R

  Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)

  Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

  Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

  Fox, Sir G.

  Maude, J. C.

  White, Sir D. (Fareham)

  Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)

  Medlicott, F.

  White, J. B (Canterbury)

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

  Gage, C

  Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

  Willink, Rt. Hon. H. U

  Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D

  Morris-Jones, Sir H.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Gammans, L. D.

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Gates, Maj. E. E.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  York, C

  George, Mai. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

  George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Mullan, Lt. C. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Mr. James Stuart and

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Nicholson, G.

  Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.

  Resolved:
  "That this House welcomes the laying before Parliament of a survey of the nation's requirements and resources for the year 1947, is concerned at the seriousness of the situation disclosed, and will support the Government in all practical measures taken in co-operation with all sections of the people of the country to overcome the difficulties arid to make secure the foundations of our industry so as to provide a high standard of living for our people."

  CIVIL AVIATION APPOINTMENTS (EX-R.A.F. OFFICERS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Snow.]
  10.26 p.m.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: I should like, first, to congratulate the

  1451
  Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation on being back in the House after his recent accident. Probably he now realises that flying is much safer than breaking the ice for his morning swim.
  I wish to raise a subject which is of importance to the civil aviation industry, regarding the appointment of retired senior R.A.F. officers as commandants of civil airports. I dislike having to raise this subject. A number of the people concerned, to whom I am going to refer, are friends and acquaintances of mine. I attach no blame to any of these officers for merely trying to supplement their pensions by getting jobs. Nevertheless, I do blame the Ministry for making the appointments as they have been made. There are many like myself who feel that those employed in civil aviation are not getting a square deal over the recent appointments. For example, there are men flying our air liners who have, perhaps, done 25 years in civil aviation. They are getting near the end of their flying days and are looking forward to ground jobs at the age of, say, 45. They should be the men to be considered for these ground jobs of commanding civil airports.
  It is sometimes said that pilots have not administrative experience. A civil pilot, with his great knowledge of operating aircraft, and having travelled over the world on the air routes and knowing the requirements of foreign airline operators, is much more capable of running a civil airport than is an officer who has perhaps spent 30 years in military service and knows nothing whatever about civil aviation. The men to whom I have referred, as their flying days come to a close, have to find other appointments. They are absolutely in their prime at the age of 45. It is most regrettable that these appointments have been made. A'series of appointments has been made in the last six or eight months. Part of my argument is that none of these appointments have been advertised in the daily Press. The Minister of Civil Aviation, then Lord Winster, told the Guild of Air Pilots and the British Air Line Pilots Association that the jobs would be advertised and that those organisations would be consulted regarding any appointments made. The Ministry in question has failed to carry out
  1452
  that pledge. The jobs were not advertised.
  Early last autumn the appointment was made of an air vice-marshal as Civil Air Attaché to Washington. The officer was well known, with a great record of service to the country, but nevertheless he had no experience at all of commercial aviation. Pressure was brought to bear on the Ministry and an assurance was given that the matter would be reconsidered at the end of the year. So far nothing has been said about putting a new officer into that appointment. I should like to quote an extract from a letter I received from the British Air Line Pilots Association in which they refer to this matter. The letter states;
  "It is a pity that the Minister of Civil Aviation goes outside the ranks of those who have been intimately connected with civil aviation in the appointment of civil airport officials during the present expansion. It gives rise to the impression that there is no future in civil aviation for the man who enters the industry either on the ground or in the air. He will feel that after he reaches a certain stage of development he will not get any further because the plums will be given to retired R.A.F. officers of high rank and title."
  I do not want to say anything which will debar my former colleagues in the Air Force from getting good jobs. If the Minister cannot get a man from the civil aviation industry, then let him obtain young men from the Air Force, young wing commanders and group captains who know their job. not men of 55 years of age.
  Mr. Edgar Granville: Are these officers active officers or retired officers.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Retired officers. I will give a few details. One of the appointments is that of area commandant for South East- England, Air Marshal Sir Roderick Carr, a very fine officer who has a great war record, but I cannot say he is the man to have charge of the whole of the airports in South East England. Other appointments are Heathrow, Air Vice-Marshal Sir John D'Albiac; Northolt, Air-Commodore Simpson; Prestwick, Group Captain MacDonald, who, I know, has been employed in the Air Ministry for a few months. I do not quarrel with that appointment, because he is younger and has recent flying experience and, being a Scot, is well fitted to go to Prestwick. The next appointment I refer to is that

  1453
  of the gentleman who is going to control all the civil airports in Scotland, Air-Commodore Murray. I am told he is to get a salary of £1,850 a year. His history in aviation is that he has commanded a balloon squadron and a balloon group during the war. What on earth does he know about aeroplanes? We must have a young man who knows his job, not a man who has been employed with balloons. I quite agree that on other appointments where officers are taken into the Ministry of Civil Aviation for a period of two years—specialist jobs in signals. There is a strong case there, but I do believe that young men who have done signal courses during the war, and have done well in running signal groups, could well have been considered for these appointments.
  This is just not good enough. I know of one man, a Captain Brent, who has completed some 10,000 or 12,000 flying hours. He decided that his flying days were drawing to a close, and he wanted a job on the ground. He went to the Ministry and asked for£1,200 a year, and was told it was much too much. He is lost to aviation, because he is now managing a factory manufacturing boot polish, and making more money than he would in any Government job. That is a case where a pilot has left a flying career, and gone into a really good administrative job and is holding it down. He could have taken any of the jobs which have recently been filled by these senior officers.
  Recently the Government approached the Air Ministry for six Air Vice-Marshals to join the Coal Board, but, fortunately, the Air Ministry refused because they wanted their good Air Vice-Marshals. I think it is a very sad day when these Government concerns have to rob the R.A.F. of men who are doing good service. I do ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider this matter, because it is a slur on our air line pilots and those employed in the civil aviation industry. They have done a great job during the war in B.O.A.C. and Transport Command and since, in building up this industry, which requires all the help and encouragement that can possibly be given to it, so that this almost young industry will go ahead in the way we want to see it progress. What surprises me is that in the past the party opposite has accused my party of finding jobs for the Admirals and Air Marshals, and now we see these
  1454
  very important jobs being filled by officers of general rank without any consideration for those outside the Services. There is great concern in the industry. I know that in my own company, and in the Guild of Air Line Pilots—of which I am on the court—there is great concern, and I believe that if the hon. Gentleman pursues this policy, he is certain to lose by it. We want young men coming in who know their jobs and who will stay for 20 years, not men who will come in for, perhaps, three years just to make a little bit extra, over and above their pensions. I hope a great change will be made, and that these appointments will not stand for even three years.
  10.37 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: I find myself in the rather regrettable position of having to agree with an hon. and gallant Member on the opposite benches, but I approach the subject from a rather different angle. I am deeply concerned that our civil aviation industry, which has been nationalised, should be an outstanding success. After all, if these early schemes of nationalisation are not to be outstanding successes, which will set an example, the policy which is being pursued by the Government will tend to be discredited. Therefore, at an early date, we should take steps to see that the people appointed by the Minister are entirely suitable for the jobs. I know it is a very easy thing to say, but in a new industry like this there are not the people who have the experience required.
  I have looked at this list of recent appointments, which the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) has described, and I cannot see what special qualifications they have for taking up appointments in civil aviation. The one point, the obvious point, is that their chief qualification is having some knowledge of flying, but, taking a parallel example, if it were a question of running a shipping line, or controlling one of our seaports, should we necessarily look to the ranks of the Navy, and put a retired Admiral in charge? I do not think that would be done. I think that in those circumstances, whoever was responsible would look into the ranks of industrialists and those who had commercial experience in shipping lines. The same would apply in the case of the nationalised railways. I am sure the Minister responsible would not look to the ranks of the Army to find

  1455
  R.T.O.'s to become stationmasters. Here we have the civil aviation industry, which is a young and developing industry requiring people with imagination and people who have their careers to make in the industry. These are the people who will take a vital interest in the way in which the airports are managed and operated. We do not want men who are mere figureheads and who are taken from the retired lists of the Forces, whose outlook is already established. These men have the outlook of men who have been brought up all of their lives in a military atmosphere, and it is not an atmosphere we want in our civil air ports.
  With regard to the question of whether or not suitable talent can be found, my experience has been that when men come back from the Forces—and I expect it is the experience of other hon. Members of the House—they have written to us asking if we knew of any way in which they could get into our nationalised civil aviation. Time and time again I have had to write back and say that their only way is to approach the Ministry directly. They have told me they have already done so, without any success whatever. If they were fortunate enough to get an interview, they were told that many hundreds had applied, and the prospects held out to them were very slight. Yet now, at this late date, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman has indicated, without even advertising the posts, these men are appointed to responsible positions, and having only their past military careers as qualifications. I have known civil air line pilots who have left the industry in disgust because when they have completed their flying careers, they cannot enter suitable industries commensurate with their talents. Some of these disappointed men have even left the country because it is not offering them a chance in the industry which we need to build up probably more than any other country if communications throughout the Empire are to be adequately developed.
  On 27th February, the Minister of Civil Aviation sent out a circular to the Press referring to a number of appointments he had just made within the Department. Six appointments were being made, all of senior Royal Air Force officers, to fill certain technical services—as they were described—in the Ministry. They included the post of Director of Civil
  1456
  Air Operations, Chairman of the Joint Aircraft Control Board and Deputy Director of Civil Air Operations, Deputy Director of Control, Deputy Director of Civil Air Operations, and so forth. Two of those posts were of a technical nature, those dealing with telecommunications, the Director and Assistant Director of Telecommunications. But, I cannot see that the other posts necessarily require military men to fill them. The circular says that these men will be there only for a short time while civilian personnel are being trained. If civilian personnel are being trained for these posts, why is it that in these posts not only the man in charge, but the assistant also—the Deputy Director of Civil Air Operations for example—is drawn from the ranks of the Air Force?
  I should have thought that if men were to be trained from civil life, to take these posts, it would be proper that the deputy, the man who is the understudy, should be the man who would take over the post at a later date. Has my hon. Friend already got the men in training for these posts? Here we have military men becoming established in new Departments, yet in civil aviation it is becoming the general practice, not only in this country, but in America also, to have men specially trained for civil aviation. If we are to train men for a special job, surely if they are already qualified as military men that will be the standard set, because they are the people we are taking on for these jobs on the staff at the start. These jobs are of a civil nature, and it is essential that we should have civilians in them, from the beginning. It is essential that we should have men of experience in these posts—
  Air-Commodore Harvey: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. May I appeal to you that time should be given to the Minister to reply?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): That is not a matter on which I can give any instruction, but the hon. Member who is speaking should bear it in mind.
  Mr. Cooper: The last point I wish to make is this. Instead of carefully describing the qualifications of the individuals, as has been done in this circular, will my hon. Friend be good enough to describe the posts which the men are going to fill? There is a good deal of confusion in the civil aviation world about all the many

  1457
  jobs in the Ministry and the way in which the Ministry is meant to function. It is not at all clear at present.
  10.45 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): First, I should like to thank the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) for his reference to my accident. It may be tragic to admit it, but apparently I need "air-commodore's weather" to save me on the ground. But I am glad of the opportunity given me tonight to give some indication of the policy of my noble Friend in regard to the staffing of the Ministry for which he is responsible.
  I think everyone will agree that the success of civil aviation, and the success of air line operators, will depend on ground organization—telecommunications, navigational aids, and the general ground organisation for aerodromes for which my noble Friend is responsible. If that is to be effective, there must be confidence, especially as regards the user of the facilities for which the Minister of Civil Aviation is responsible. If we are to have that absolute confidence, I do not think that there should be any one line of recruitment for promotion within the service of the Ministry of Civil Aviation. I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield meant it. I am not so sure about the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper), but I do not, perhaps, think that either hon. Member meant that the Royal Air Force was to be excluded. I think that men who join the Royal Air Force ought to have a guarantee that there is an avenue for their activities after their period of service with the Royal Air Force. My noble Friend's desire is to have a ministerial service to provide an avenue for promotion for men within the service, and that there should be promotions in addition to civilian recruitment; that there should be assistance also from the charter companies, to establish a service for the full benefit and confidence of persons using aircraft.
  Mr. Cooper: Does that mean that there are to be opportunities for these men after they have retired?
  Mr. Lind—ren: No, one does not assume that in any shape or form. Those looking for appointments are usually those short-
  1458
  serviced in the Royal Air Force, and my scheme is directed to short-service men in the Royal Air Force. It must be remembered that there has been no civil aviation since 1939. Admittedly, we had B.O.A.C., and Imperial Airways in the first part of the war, but even the facilities available to B.O.A.C. were provided by the Royal Air Force. The only people to have any experience whatever of large-scale air operation, and control of aerodromes and operations, and who have the knowledge of up-to-date navigational aids, and other things which have developed very considerably during the war, are those who have had service with the Royal Air Force. Therefore, we start off—
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: What about the Fleet Air Arm?
  Mr. Lindgren: I would cast no reflection on the Fleet Air Arm, but, so far as the Royal Air Force is concerned, it is true that their operational experience was greater than that of the Fleet Air Arm in relation to civil aviation. But these three appointments were made of officers over retirement age, and they are short-term appointments for three years. I can only speak from this Box on the information which is placed at my disposal and on that information which is placed at the disposal of my noble Friend within my own Ministry and my information is that within my own Ministry and among those who were in the Corporation's service in civil flying, there was not the experience which is required for these highly responsible jobs as commandants for Northolt, the London Airport, and these other specialised posts.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Parliamentary Secretary explain why these commandants are to have assistants who have a wide experience in civil aviation to see them through the job?
  Mr. Lindgren: The reason is that the first appointments made are of men who, I am informed, were recommended to my noble Friend by the Air Member for Personnel at the Air Ministry, and he, after all, should know.
  Wing-Commander Hulbert: Is not the Air Member for Personnel one of the officers the hon. Gentleman has now appointed?
  Mr. Lindgren: No. Years ago—in the years before the war. Since then, he has

  1459
  been in Transport Command and quite a number of positions in the Air Ministry, and finally he has come, with a very creditable record, to the Ministry of Civil Aviation. These appointments were recommended; selections were made by the Ministry of Civil Aviation from among names recommended to us by the Air Member for Personnel, the reason being that we had not the experienced personnel within the Ministry of Civil Aviation at present.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Why was the pledge given by Lord Winster broken, and the Guild and the British Air Line Pilots' Association not approached, as was promised?
  Mr. Lindgren: This is the only instance in which that has not been done.
  Wing-Commander Hulbert: Surely all the plums have gone. Why were not these jobs advertised, instead of these hole-in-the-corner appointments being made?
  Mr. Lindgren: I must ask the hon. and gallant Member to withdraw that remark. It is not fair. After all, an Air Vice-Marshal is not a complete nitwit. should never have thought that I should have to stand at this Box and defend high-ranking officers of H.M. Services. These are men of fine record who have justified themselves in the service of their country. If it is to be assumed by hon. Members opposite that because a man has reached high rank in the Services, he is not going to fit into civilian life, it is a surprise to me.
  Mr. Bracken: The Parliamentary Secretary must not assume that. The complaint is that the Minister gave an undertaking that appointments would be advertised. In a democratic community great appointments, or any appointments, should be advertised in the Press. Why did not the Ministry keep that promise?
  Mr. Lindgren: These are very specialised posts which few men are qualified to hold.
  Mr. Bracken: Could not they answer an advertisement?
  Mr. Lindgren: They could, of course, have answered an advertisement, but these were three specialised posts, short-term posts, and we want later to develop within our own service men to fill these posts. Such men will be coming out in three years' time, when we shall have developed them in our own service—
  Mr. Bracken: Will the Parliamentary Secretary answer whether or not the Ministry advertised these appointments, and if not, will he say why the promise was broken?
  Mr. Lindgren: The previous Minister of Civil Aviation gave a promise, which my noble Friend will honour, to B.A.L.P.A. and G.A.P.A.N., that they will be notified when any posts are available.
  Mr. Beswick: Will the Parliamentary Secretary make it clear when these three men were appointed? Were they appointed before the present Minister held office?
  Mr. Lindgren: No, they were not. It makes no difference. In every instance, except these three, they have been notified and given an opportunity to advertise the vacancies among their membership. In these three instances the promise was not kept, for the reason that they were very specialised posts, temporary posts for three-year appointments, and the appointments were made from among men in a very restricted field. To have advertised would have been foolhardy, because it would have raised hopes perhaps in the breasts of hundreds of people, and caused a considerable amount of work, when in fact there would have been no hope for them. The men appointed have been provided through the R.A.F. with the strongest recommendations of their ability to do the job. They are temporary appointments and later, we shall provide openings for recruitment—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the Debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Order made upon 13th November.
  Adjourned at Four Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

AFRICAN COLONIES
  Air Services
  Air Services
  Tanganyika (Road Policy)
  Tanganyika (Road Policy)
  Labour Conditions
  Labour Conditions
  Mass Education, Kenya
  Mass Education, Kenya
  Hospital Accommodation, Bathurst
  Hospital Accommodation, Bathurst
  Murder Trials, Tanganyika
  Murder Trials, Tanganyika
  GIBRALTAR (HOUSING)
  GIBRALTAR (HOUSING)
  HONG KONG (NURSES INTERNMENT PAY)
  HONG KONG (NURSES INTERNMENT PAY)
ARMED FORCES
  Dental Officers
  Dental Officers
  Deserters
  Deserters
  Occupation Forces, Japan (Gift Shops)
  Occupation Forces, Japan (Gift Shops)
  Release Group Numbers
  Release Group Numbers
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Vegetable Oils
  Vegetable Oils
  Copra and Coconut Oil
  Copra and Coconut Oil
  Fish Frying Fat
  Fish Frying Fat
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Canned Fruit and Vegetables Order
  Canned Fruit and Vegetables Order
  Imported Flour
  Imported Flour
ROYAL NAVY
  Widows' Pensions
  Widows' Pensions
  Scientific Officers (Revised Salary Scales)
  Scientific Officers (Revised Salary Scales)
  Maltese Staffs (Allowance Rates)
  Maltese Staffs (Allowance Rates)
  Swordfish Aircraft
  Swordfish Aircraft
  R.N.V.R. Air Squadrons (Formation)
  R.N.V.R. Air Squadrons (Formation)
  Pensions
  Pensions
  Naval Aviation
  Naval Aviation
  Central Park, Plymouth
  Central Park, Plymouth
  Captains and Commanders
  Captains and Commanders
  R.N.V.R. (Strength)
  R.N.V.R. (Strength)
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
  Sea Cadet Corps
  Sea Cadet Corps
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Kiosk, Sheldon
  Kiosk, Sheldon
  Island of Scarp
  Island of Scarp
  Reepham Exchange, Norfolk
  Reepham Exchange, Norfolk
  Farmers, Isolated Districts
  Farmers, Isolated Districts
  Walthamstow
  Walthamstow
  Instruments, London
  Instruments, London
  Middleton
  Middleton
  Radio-Telephone Service (Atlantic Liners)
  Radio-Telephone Service (Atlantic Liners)
POST OFFICE
  New Post Office, Sheldon
  New Post Office, Sheldon
  Commemorative Stamps
  Commemorative Stamps
  Sub-Office, Hale End Road, London
  Sub-Office, Hale End Road, London
  Staff Associations (Recognition)
  Staff Associations (Recognition)
BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION
  Television Programmes
  Television Programmes
  Staff Representation
  Staff Representation
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Police (Release)
  Police (Release)
  Physiotherapists (Pay)
  Physiotherapists (Pay)
  Locally-entered Staffs
  Locally-entered Staffs
  Miho Camp, Japan
  Miho Camp, Japan
  Observer Corps Allowances
  Observer Corps Allowances
  Hereford Station (Complaints)
  Hereford Station (Complaints)
  Old Court Hall, Godmanchester
  Old Court Hall, Godmanchester
  India (Postal Rates)
  India (Postal Rates)
  Meteorological Office (Poles)
  Meteorological Office (Poles)
  War Service Grant (Regulars)
  War Service Grant (Regulars)
CIVIL AVIATION
  Pilots and Navigators (Examinations)
  Pilots and Navigators (Examinations)
  West End Road (Bus Service)
  West End Road (Bus Service)
  London Airport (Telephone Facilities)
  London Airport (Telephone Facilities)
  Airways Titles (Initials)
  Airways Titles (Initials)
  Channel Islands
  Channel Islands
  Pakenham Report (Publication)
  Pakenham Report (Publication)
GERMANY
  Excavator Factory, Hamburg-Altona
  Excavator Factory, Hamburg-Altona
  Subversive Organisation
  Subversive Organisation
  Control Commission Staff
  Control Commission Staff
  Postal Censorship
  Postal Censorship
  British Train (Border Incident)
  British Train (Border Incident)
  De-Nazification
  De-Nazification
  Socialisation of Industry
  Socialisation of Industry
  British Personnel (Marriage)
  British Personnel (Marriage)
  Scouts and Guides
  Scouts and Guides
  Machine Tools
  Machine Tools
  Armed Forces Amnesty (Aircrews)
  Armed Forces Amnesty (Aircrews)
  War Crimes Trials
  War Crimes Trials
  Shipbuilding
  Shipbuilding
  Books and Newspapers
  Books and Newspapers
  Schools
  Schools
  FOREIGN SERVICE ALLOWANCES
  FOREIGN SERVICE ALLOWANCES
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMISSION
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMISSION
  FALKLAND ISLANDS (ARGENTINE CLAIMS)
  FALKLAND ISLANDS (ARGENTINE CLAIMS)
  MOLDAVIA (FAMINE)
  MOLDAVIA (FAMINE)
  S.E. ASIA COMMISSION (STAFF)
  S.E. ASIA COMMISSION (STAFF)
BRITISH ARMY
  War Excess Rules (Rejoined Men)
  War Excess Rules (Rejoined Men)
  Remand Prison, Singapore
  Remand Prison, Singapore
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
AGRICULTURE
  Seed Potatoes
  Seed Potatoes
  Farm Tractors (Production)
  Farm Tractors (Production)
EMPLOYMENT
  Further Education and Training
  Further Education and Training
  Austrian Domestic Workers
  Austrian Domestic Workers
CIVIL SERVICE
  Claims
  Claims
  Recruitment
  Recruitment
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  SERVICE LAND REQUIREMENTS
  SERVICE LAND REQUIREMENTS
  MOBILE GENERATORS (DISPOSAL)
  MOBILE GENERATORS (DISPOSAL)
  VISITING BUSINESSMEN (PETROL)
  VISITING BUSINESSMEN (PETROL)
  JAPAN OCCUPATION FORCE (CURRENCY)
  JAPAN OCCUPATION FORCE (CURRENCY)
  MOTOR VEHICLE LICENCES
  MOTOR VEHICLE LICENCES
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  COAL FROM AMERICA.
  LORD DENHAM: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and gallant friend Lord De L'Isle and Dudley I beg to ask the question which stands in his name.
  [The question was as follows:
  To ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any information as to the amount of coal which the U.S.A. have shipped or agreed to ship to European countries other than Great Britain during 1947, and whether His Majesty's Government will take steps to ascertain what surplus of coal in excess of those shipments the U.S.A. has available for export to Great Britain, and whether His Majesty's Government is prepared to purchase that surplus or any part of it.]
  LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, the total quantity of American coal which has been allocated under programme for the first six months of 1947 to European countries that are members of the European Coal Organization is 12,500,000 tons. The availability of American coal to Europe for the second half of 1947 has not yet been declared. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the noble Lord to the message sent by the Prime Minister on 14th February to the President of the United States.
  LORD DENHAM: I am obliged to the noble Lord for his reply.

TAXATION OF MOTOR VEHICLES.
2.37 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH had the following Notice on the Order Paper: In view of the urgent need to maintain and increase our export of motor vehicles, to suggest an alternative to the present system of motor vehicle taxation; and to
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move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, 1 think it would be acceptable to your Lordships' House, and certainly it would be in keeping with its custom, if I disclosed something which I believe most noble Lords already know, and that is my long connexion with the British motor industry. That connexion may presuppose that I have a very special interest in the Motion which stands in my name upon the Order Paper, but if it does, perhaps it may be counterbalanced by the number of years that I have spent in the British motor industry—how many they are it is embarrassing to recall—and the fact that I may have some slight claim to a little knowledge upon the subject which I am submitting to your Lordships as one of great national importance.
When I had the honour to address your Lordships' House for the first time, now many months ago, I ventured to express the view that British industrial policy should be centred upon the production of the class and type of goods most acceptable to world markets, and at prices comparable to those of our competitors. I invited your: Lordships to consider whether or not this was being clone; whether our industrial policy was indeed being centred upon that objective, and whether we were producing, or planning to produce, the goods which would hold our exports at the desired level in the years that lay ahead. I cited the British motor industry as a case where this was not being done, and where through ra. taxation system restrictive of design it was being prevented from contributing to our export markets that quota of which, given freedom of design, it was undoubtedly capable. This afternoon I seek to prove to the satisfaction, I hope, of your Lordships in general, and to the satisfaction in particular of the noble Lord who is to reply on behalf of His Majesty's Government, that: unless the basis of motor vehicle taxation is altered by removing the restriction on design which the present system imposes, Brit sh motor vehicle exports will not only fail to reach the figures possible, bat in about eighteen months' or two years' time, when we have to face the full force of American competition, there will. be a considerable drop in present-day totals.
In order that I may put the facts before your Lordships, I hope I may have the

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indulgence of noble Lords while I recount past history. It was in 1921 that the mechanical formula tax, in the shape of the horse power tax, was imposed as the basis for taxation on motor cars. I need not bother your Lordships with the reason for its imposition; suffice to say that the industry's fear of American competition in the home market played no small part. The result of the imposition of this restrictive formula was to encourage the design of small cars. Designers made and designed small engines because the lower the horse power the lower was the tax. The designers of the British motor industry became tax dodgers, attempting, and succeeding, with a great deal of skill, to design smaller and smaller engines so that they could advertise to a tax-conscious buying public the competitive lowness of their horse power ratings.
The other defect of this restrictive mechanical formula, coupled with the fact that the tax was graded in steps of 1 h.p., was to encourage a multiplicity of engine sizes, until the British motor industry was turning out cars of every horse power from seven to twenty and above. By 1927 we had almost become a small car using country. Of the total home market, 25 per cent. was absorbed by cars of 10 h.p. and under. By 1938 this had grown to more than 62 per cent., and by 1939, it was over 70 per cent. Of the sizes of motor car for which there was a world market, that is 15 h.p. and over, only 34,644 were sold in this country in the year 1938. The effect upon our export market was tragic. From 1929 to 1938 (a period during which there was a remarkable growth in world automobile usage) the total exports of motor vehicles from this country averaged only £10,000,000 per annum. Between 1929 and 1938 it increased by only £1,750,000 per annum, and in 1938 the total was only £12,992,000. We had successfully protected the home market, but we had equally successfully cut our throats in the export markets of the world.
Two years ago the industry was asked to submit its views upon proposals for an alteration in the basis of taxation. Those views were to be based upon two fundamental requirements; first, to encourage the building of larger cars more suitable to world markets, and secondly,
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to discourage the production of a multiplicity of models, thereby achieving a reduction in manufacturing costs, which would in turn put us in a more favourable competitive position overseas. The industry was divided in its views. But was that surprising? Was that not to be expected when, upon one hand, there was a progressive element which could see that the only hope for the British motor industry and this country lay in an expanding export market and when, upon the other hand, there was a section which wanted only a retention of the status quo which effectively protected the home market and encouraged the building of small motor cars out of which fortunes had been made? The strange part was that after the industry had been asked for its views based upon the two requirements which I have outlined—namely, the building of larger motor cars more attractive to overseas markets and a diminution in the number of models produced—proposals were accepted which will do neither, but will make only for a continuance of exactly the same conditions as those which proved to be our biggest handicap in the past.
On 1st January of this year the horse power tax was changed to a tax upon the cubic capacity of the engine. On the same date the grading of the tax in steps of 1 h.p. was changed to a grading in steps of 100 c.c. of engine capacity. There is really no difference between the two. Both are restrictive of design, and both will make for the building of smaller motor cars. The fact that the tax is now graded in steps of 100 c.c. instead of 1 h.p. will make for the same multiplicity of models. That is the position, and we have got to be able to fight our way through it. There is only one way by which the designer can be given a free hand to design for the markets of the world and by which the flexibility of design can be obtained which is necessary to meet all the competitive conditions of overseas markets. That is to scrap all mechanical factors from the basis of taxation, and to base motor vehicle taxation upon a uniform registration fee, plus a tax upon the fuel which the vehicle uses.
It is significant that the greatest protagonist of the cubic capacity tax, Sir Miles Thomas, the Vice-Chairman of the Nuffield Organization, upon his return from a recent visit to America has declared himself in favour of a tax upon

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petrol. Several of our leading manufacturers, after most educative visits to the United States, are now of the same opinion. There is to-day an overwhelming body of opinion in the motor industry in support of the system I have suggested. In point of fact, it would not be an exaggeration to say that within the motor industry there is complete unanimity that unless we do change the present system of motor vehicle taxation our chances of competing with America in the markets of the world have practically disappeared. I am in no mood to recriminate. I accept this conversion to the faith rather in the spirit that there is more joy in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth than over the ninety and nine just persons who to-day stand unrepentant and unashamed of the fact that they have fought for over twenty-five years to have this restriction taken away from one of our greatest British industries.
It is no part of my case this afternoon to argue for a reduction in the total burden of vehicle taxation. Of course it is too high and must at some time be reduced. You cannot go on penalizing an industry to the tune of £90,000,000 per annum, which represented in 1938 9.4 of the total taxation revenue of the country. Of course it will have to be reduced, but I refuse to advance any case for the reduction of that total burden at the present moment. I am going to say this quite bluntly. A diminution in the total burden of taxation will never influence the design of motor vehicles while the basis upon which that taxation is imposed is in itself restrictive of that designer. My advice to the British motor industry is to concentrate more of its efforts upon a reduction of its production and distribution costs, and to spend less time in agitating for a reduction in that proportion of the total price which the buyer has to pay which is represented by taxation. All I have said in relation to motor cars has equal force when applied to commercial vehicles. As I have said in your Lordships' House on a previous occasion, while goods-carrying vehicles are taxed upon the basis of their unladen weight—which is in itself a mechanical formula—the first consideration of the designer must be to get his vehicle within a specific weight class and not, as it should be, the suitability of the vehicle to carry loads under any and every condition in any country of the world.
May I attempt to answer some of the questions which may be posing themselves in the minds of various noble Lords? What would be the effect of the system of taxation which I have suggested upon the home user of transport? Would he pay more or would he pay less? The right honourable gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, has laid it down that any new system of motor vehicle taxation must yield to the Exchequer exactly the same amount as is yielded by the system which it supersedes. That means that, over all, the motor vehicle user would pay no more. If it is thought that the various sections of road users, the motor cars, the goods carrying vehicles and the passenger carrying vehicles, should contribute in future the same proportion as they have done in the past, then it only means that the registration fee in every section would be varied, while the price of petrol, including the tax, would remain constant.
For instance, it has been suggested that on motor cars a uniform registration fee of £5, with an increased petrol tax of 3d. or perhaps 4d., would yield from motor cars the same amount in the future as has been yielded in the past. I have not the figures to prove or disprove that, but, after all, it is only a matter of arithmetic. It means that the goods-carrying vehicle and the passenger-carrying vehicle would have a slightly higher registration fee, whereas the motor cycle and the small three-wheeler would have a registration fee of less than The focal point, however, is that no one section of road users would pay more. Very likely in various classes some would pay more and some would pay less. But they do to-day. The man who does the large mileage pays more in total tax than the man who does a small mileage. And is that not fair? Is that not by far the best way to tax a vehicle user—on a basis of pay as you go? After all, the user who does a long and heavy mileage has that mileage over which to spread the capital cost, which is a very great consideration.
Put everything into the scale against the system I have suggested; put everything real or imaginary in one side of the scale, and then put in the other side of the scale our dire and desperate need for exports. What is the position to-day? The British motor industry has been operating in a transport-starved world and has enjoyed a great sellers' market, the

331
like of which the world has never seen before. In 1946 we exported from this country 87,000 motor cars and 48,000 commercial vehicles, to a total value of £50,000,000. But that is coming to an end, American production is getting under way. At the present moment exports of motor cars from America are limited to 6 per cent. of total production, and the limit on the export of commercial vehicles from America is 14 per cent. of total production. But at those percentages they are exceeding our totals in world markets to-day. What is going to happen when American competition is in full spate? What right have we to expect that we are going to succeed in the export markets of 1948 with products exactly similar to those which proved so unacceptable to those markets in 1938?
With that background, how can we expect to meet this American competition? The question intrudes itself: can we as a country compete with America? I unhesitatingly say, "Yes we can." We have in this country the finest designers, the finest technicians and the finest production engineers in the world. Was that not proved during the war when our designers and production engineers did not have a taxation formula to guide their hand? They produced some of the finest internal combustion engines the world has ever seen. Why? Because they had a free hand, unrestricted, to do it. Is there any noble Lord here who will deny that the workmen manning our factories in the automobile industry are not every bit as good as those in America?
I would beg you not to be misled by two fallacious arguments. The first is that in order to compete with America in the markets of the world we have to build 3o h.p. juggernauts. Nothing is further from the truth. Volume-produced American motor cars in the future will be somewhere in the region of 18 to 20 h.p., and we in this country can build a 16 h.p. motor car which is a typically British production and not a slavish copy of the American. If we rationalize this industry, rationalize its production methods and have a taxation system which encourages rationalization, we can produce and compete equally with America in the markets of the world. The other fallacy is that owing to the great home American market we can never compete with America on price. When we have battled
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and fought and won the class-distinction fight in this country, when we have increased the usage of motor cars in this country by five times what it is to-daywhen we have done that, we shall only have as many motor cars per head of population as America had ten years ago. When we have concentrated on standardization for the home and world markets as the same we can obtain a volume where all the advantages of mass production are secured. With my knowledge of the motor industry' I have every faith that we have, in the motor industry, producers who are straining at the leash and anxious to go out into these export markets and fight, if they are given a chance.
About three weeks ago during the debate in your Lordships' House on the Coal Crisis, the like of which this country has never before known, charges were made that it should have been foreseen. It was stated that the country had been warned and that the country had not heeded these warnings. Before the end of 1948 this country is going to run into a crisis that to-day perhaps is to some of us incomprehensible—an economic crisis on the balance of payments. What are we going to do? How are we going to increase our exports so as to minimize that crisis to the greatest possible extent? How are we, in 1947, to increase exports by 140 per cent. and in 1948 by 175 per cent? Is there any noble Lord here this afternoon who would care to suggest that coal will contribute to that total of exports? Is there any noble Lord who would suggest that cotton will play any major part? Is any noble Lord willing to risk the hazard that textiles will contribute? Where shall we find these exports, except in our manufacturing and engineering industries, in which the motor industry plays such a big part?
May I just quote from the Economic Survey for 1947 (page 5, paragraph 9)?
"Above all our national existence depends upon imports, which means that the goods we export in return must compete with the rest of the world in price, quality and design, and that our industry must adapt itself rapidly to changes in world markets."
It is almost incomprehensible that the same hand that wrote that paragraph can still decree that one of our great exporting industries will be prohibited and prevented from doing any one of those three things. May I make another quotation, from the Economic Survey (page 18, paragraph 73)?
"Our exports of steel and cotton textiles will not expand further this year."—
I would call that a masterly under-statement.
"Special reliance must therefore be placed upon a further substantial growth of engineering, vehicle, chemical and miscellaneous exports."
How can we expect not only a growth in vehicle exports but even to maintain the level we have to-day in the light of the facts that I have placed before your Lordships' House?
I claim that it is a national emergency that we are faced with to-day. I claim that it is in the national interest that the motor industry shall be given an opportunity of playing its part. We are being asked to-day: What can we do to facilitate expansion of production in this country? Let us, by unleashing all their inherent skill and genius, give our engineers a chance. I do not expect the noble Lord who is to reply on behalf of His Majesty's Government to stand up and say he has been so impressed that of course he accepts this Motion. I appreciate that perhaps we shall have to wait for one month to see the result of the debate in your Lordships' House this afternoon. All I hope is that the noble Lord who is to reply will undertake to see that this matter will be reviewed in the light in which I have been privileged to place it before your Lordships' House, and that it will receive the Government's very serious consideration. I beg to move for Papers.
3.9 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR or INCHRYE: My Lords, I am quite sure the whole House is grateful to the noble Lord for the Motion he has put down, and for the knowledgeable and expert survey of the present position and the history of the motor car industry to which we have listened this afternoon. I was particularly interested in his final remarks, when he touched upon the Economic Survey which we are very shortly to debate in your Lordships' House. No doubt those who speak for His Majesty's Government on that occasion will be able to answer the questions which the noble Lord propounded as to the amazing ability of the hand that wrote certain paragraphs and the apparent inaction that has followed them as regards the policy of the Government. I think this is a welcome and timely debate. It is welcome because it
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gives us an opportunity of reviewing changes, which I believe noble Lords on all sides of the House feel are overdue, as regards this industry which is of such importance for Great Britain. If, as a result of our discussions, a message of considered and informed opinion can go from your Lordships' House to the Government that the time for change is now, the debate will indeed have been timely as well as welcome.
As the noble Lord who introduced this Motion said, an effect of the present system of taxation is that we have developed, very broadly, a peculiarly British type of car behind the protective walls of horse power taxation and duties directed against the import of foreign cars. But even as regards the home market, I do not think we have any reason to congratulate ourselves on our achievement as a nation, although we have had this protective policy in the past. With taxation in this country approximately seven times as high (assuming the motorist does an average of 7,000 to 10,000 miles a year) as in the United States, we have about one car to every twenty-four persons, while the Americans have one car to every five. Therefore, apart from questions relating to the overseas motorist, any change in the system which would enable the home motorist to avoid the payment of the heavy capital sum which now has to be paid out each year under the horse power tax, would be welcome. If the petrol tax with a small registration fee were introduced, it would allow many people who have an income spread over the year sufficient to enable them to be motorists, but have not available the sum necessary for the quarterly tax, to embark on motoring—which they cannot do at the present time.
As regards overseas questions, the present taxation, as the noble Lord has said, has forced our makers to stand and watch overseas rnarkets—particularly in the British Empire—captured by United States manufacturers. British makers are often taken to task for their so-called prewar lack of enterprise in face of competition. For my part, I do not think that we can blame the manufacturers in this country, for there has been precious little encouragement for them to go out for the export trade in view of the handicap of taxation in the form which has hitherto ruled. It is a truism that a healthy export

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trade can be built up only on the foundations of healthy and prosperous home industries. The noble Lord said we need not slavishly copy the American types; that what we needed to produce for the export trade were models of about 12 h.p. and 16 h.p. to 18 h.p. I had the privilege of being, for some time, Resident Minister in West Africa, and in such places as the Gold Coast and Nigeria it was really pathetic to see business men and Government servants who all wished, in their hearts, to be able to buy and use British cars, being forced to buy from the Americans. There were three reasons for this. The first was that the American car usually gave them better performance and was more suitable for the rough country; the second was that the American car was cheaper, and the third—probably as important as either of the other two reasons—was that the American car had behind it a local service for spares and maintenance such as British manufacturers were not providing.
I believe that if we do change the basis of taxation and switch over to the petrol tax, with a registration fee, our makers will then be able to go out for those overseas markets in a way that has not been possible in the past. I talked to one big manufacturer recently about the particular markets in West Africa, of which I had knowledge, and what was said applies also, I believe, to markets in other parts of the Empire. He said that he and most other manufacturers in this country would be perfectly willing to engage in a long-term project to capture those markets if they received the necessary encouragement from the British Government. He visualized three stages in the campaign to capture those markets. The first would be to produce the right car and, equally, to prove to the potential user, by demonstration in his own country, that it was as good as any other article produced and offered at a competitive price. The second stage would be the laying down of a spares and services organization which would be comparable in all ways with those of the American manufacturers. Only then would he embark on the third stage, which would be the effort to sell cars.
The first and the second stages would cost a great deal of money. It would, in fact, mean making a very large capital investment upon which there would be no
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return until a large number of cars had been sold over a considerable period of time. If the manufacturer did not sell those cars, his investment as regards his demonstrations and the laying down of a sales and service organization would be lost. But such was that man's confidence that he was perfectly willing, if the Government gave him encouragement, to go forward on that basis. If our manufacturers would tackle the Empire markets on the lines that manufacturer described (I believe there is no reason to think they would not) I am confident that, given Government encouragement, there would be splendid opportunities ahead for the motor-car industry, of which they would not be unwilling or slow to take advantage.
From the revenue aspect, we feel that the present method of taxation is wrong in amount and also in the method of extraction. The present level of motor car taxation seems to be a relic of the type of mind which regards possession of a motor car as a luxury, as a social convenience, whereas in fact, as we all know, the motor car to-day is an essential part of community life and of the transport system of the country. It is the normal means of communication for citizens, commercially and privately. One of the few matters upon which I disagreed with the noble Lord who has moved this Motion was his remark about the abolition of class distinction being a necessary corollary to the extended use of motor cars in this country. If he reviews those words at his leisure I do not think that he will really feel inclined to say that the possession of an Austin Seven is the hall-mark of being in a particular social class in this country.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: It is, to the unfortunate individual who has not got one.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Oh, yes, certainly, I agree. But many people have not got a motor car, not because they are not able to afford one but for some other reason—perhaps because they do not wish to have one. There are better yardsticks to apply if you wish to make class divisions. Personally, my wish is to avoid all class divisions so far as possible; I would rather see complete unity. But, as I say, I think there are better yardsticks, if you must differentiate, than the mere possession of a motor car. As I was saying, I

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regard the present level of taxation as a relic of the type of mind that looks upon the motor car as a luxury. The noble Lord said that he was not, at this stage, asking for any reduction in the level of taxation because the Chancellor could not afford to sacrifice revenue at the present time. I agree with the noble Lord; at present it would be wrong to spoil the case for a changed method of taxation by pressing for a reduction in the amount the Chancellor is going to receive.
Nevertheless, while conceding that point, do not let us get away from the position which many of us take up, that it is wrong to maintain motor car taxation at the present level. If we concede that we do not ask for any reduction at the present time, let it be on the basis, first, that the Government are willing to consider favourably the reduction of motor car taxation as a high-priority reduction when we start to talk about reductions in taxation. That is an important point to make to the Government if one is, at the same time, conceding that one is not pressing for any immediate reduction. The second proviso which we make, since we are riot asking for any reduction, is that the extraction of £90,000,000 from the motorist; each year should be made according to a system suitable to the needs of the industry, and one which will give security to the makers for their new planning, coupled, at the same time, with the flexibility which is necessary to meet changing world industrial conditions.
The present horse power tax does not do any of these things. It certainly does not give flexibility. At the present time the Chancellor, in a few sentences in his Budget, can alter the rates of duty on scent, on tobacco, or on horse power. If he does that with scent and tobacco, the only effect is a difference in consumer price,, either up or down according to whether he raises or lowers the duties. But if he does that with the horse power tax the effect is enormous. It is very different to say that the horse power tax will be increased from 25s. to 3os. from saying that the tobacco or scent duty will be increased. Its effect is considerably more far-reaching than merely the increase or the reduction of the amount received. Our exports have to depend upon the basis of a healthy home industry, and if the horse power tax is suddenly altered, then a particular section of the
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home market for the manufacturer is probably killed, or perhaps a new section of the home market is opened up. At any rate, the whole basis of design and planning for the manufacturer is altered and must inevitably affect not only the home but also the export market. The maker planning for five years ahead to capture the export markets has his plans knocked on the head right away, and he faces an enormous loss of opportunity and, undoubtedly, a very heavy financial loss.
We say that no risk should be taken with the biggest single engineering industry in the United Kingdom. Surely an industry which employs approximately 600,000 men directly and many hundreds of thousands of men indirectly should not be at the mercy of a stroke of the Chancellor's pen when he is altering taxation. This affects agrictilture (the bide of the cow makes upholstery); it affects forestry (the wood that goes into the manufacture of a car), and it has an effect right through our industrial life. Rather should the Chancellor be given the freedom he requires to alter up or down the revenue which is obtained from motorists, but let it be according to a system which gives the security of design which the manufacturers of this country must have if we are to succeed in the future. Conversely, if no alterations arc made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the horse power tax in his annual Budget, our makers are confined rigidly to making those types of motor car which are possible with horse power taxation in its present form and at its present level. They have to adapt their designs to the horse power tax that is ruling at any one particular time, and hope that there will riot be a change in the future.
We cannot allow our motor car industry to be a victim in. the sense of the words of that popular song, "Don't fence me in." At the present time the motor car industry is fenced in by the system of horse power taxation. A tax on petrol, with a registration fee, does allow the Chancellor the power to vary taxation without affecting the plans of the makers. It gives the Chancellor his revenue, it gives security to the makers for planning, and it gives freedom, at the same time, for flexibility in designs to meet changing conditions. We talk about American competition, but France is going to compete with us in the medium-priced car in the

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years to come, and Italy is going to compete with us in the small car market. We cannot afford to be beaten in the medium size car, the big car, or the small car markets; we must be prepared to win in them all. It is customary, I believe, at the beginning of a speech to declare one's interest in the subject. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, did so at the beginning of his speech. I would like to declare my interest which, I believe, is common with that of noble Lords on all sides of the House. My interest is to see that a great British industry is given the maximum chance to play its full part in the most critical time in our economic history. If the Motion moved by the noble Lord is accepted by the Government, when the Chancellor comes to introduce his Budget we shall be giving that great industry, which has achieved much in the past, an opportunity to play its part in the future.
3.29 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: My Lords, I think the case for a revision of this tax has been so ably put by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, that there is little left for me to say. As a motor manufacturer deeply interested in the export trade I add my plea to theirs. I think some of your Lordships may have been misled by a letter in The Times of Saturday which stated that the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, representing the motor industry, had not declared themselves on this point. This was contradicted in this morning's issue of The Times in a letter from the Society, in which it is definitely stated that they join with the representatives of the users—the A.A., the R.A.C., and the Royal Association of Scotland—in supporting this plea. It has been said that the motor manufacturers will never agree, but we have heard to-day that they do agree. The great pioneers in the industry have visited America and have come to a unanimous decision, and they have had the courage and strength of mind to say to His Majesty's Government, "We are now of one opinion."
I think we must remember that these gentlemen, three of whom are members of your Lordships' House, were the pioneers in this great industry. It is not an old industry. The original pioneers are go-ahead men, and it is difficult to get that
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type of man to agree. But here we have the final proof that they are agreed on this particular point. I hope that very shortly as many members of your Lordships' House as possible will see what we have to compete with in the American market. There are a few of these American cars in England at the present time. I only wish I could show your Lordships outside an example of the £500 American motor car. It would show you what we are up against when the sellers' market comes to an end, as it is very definitely going to do.
Another point which I beg to bring to your Lordships' notice is that a decision, and a quick one, is most advisable. In the manufacture of new types of models it is two or three years from the time the design is finished before the jigs and tools are ready. The industry cannot swing over to production overnight. It is a very urgent problem. The figures of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, as to the difference between American taxation and British taxation raise a point that I wished to make. I thought we were paying over seven times as much as the American user. Therefore, though I agree that our case to-day (which I hope will be put forward to His Majesty's Government) will not be biased, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, by asking for a reduction of taxation, nevertheless I trust that if this proposal for a basic tax of £5 is granted to us, it will be a £5 which can be reduced in the future as the motor car industry expands and more motor cars are sold. I further hope that there will be no form of differentiation between motor cars of different horse power. Although the car of 18 h.p. and thereabouts is obviously the car to manufacture at the moment, we must not lose the 27 h.p. car market. I am sure that there is still a large possibility there, and we have some famous manufacturers' names outstanding in that particular class.
Finally, may I talk about rationalization? From what I have seen of this business, especially since I have been home, I think the industry can safely be left to rationalize itself. Certain manufacturers have a large number of models, but if you go into the facts and the engineering details you will find that in a range of probably fifteen or twenty-five cars there may be only three to four

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engines and only three or four chassis frames. If you will give this industry a clear-cut taxation policy and a simple one, if you will give us the raw materials. I can assure you that we will get on with the job and do our best to increase the export trade.
3.35 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I thought that my noble friend Lord Lucas made an unanswerable case and, if that is possible, it was reinforced by the two speeches which we have heard from the Conservative and Liberal Peers who have addressed your Lordships. Of course, the case is unanswerable. I understand that my noble friend Lord Nathan is to be good enough to reply. The answer that we shall get from him will be that, of course, he cannot anticipate the Budget. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, he is a man of great influence, possessed of great persuasive powers, and I hope he will let it be known in the right quarter at the end of this debate that, as regards the House of Lords, we are absolutely unanimous in supporting the plea put forward by my noble friend Lord Lucas.
May I touch upon the snags? What will be the opposition to this suggestion? It will come from the users of long-distance commercial vehicles and the omnibus companies, including, of course, the municipalities who operate long-distance passenger-carrying vehicles. They will object, as they have always objected—and very naturally—to a special tax on petrol in place of the present horse-power tax on motor cars, and they will be supported, very naturally, by the manufacturers of commercial vehicles, who will want to please their customers who are the users of buses and long-haul commercial vehicles. How can this difficulty be got over? It may be all right for an additional threepenny or, as my noble friend said, even a fourpenny tax on petrol. It will certainly hit the road hauliers.
How car one get over that? The first suggestion that would be made, when this matter was being considered, is: "Well, have a differential tax; have the petrol used on omnibuses and long-distance heavy commercial vehicles taxed at a cheaper rate." The answer to that is that you will get a lot of thievery, "black market" business, and so on. It will be
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difficult to prevent private motorists buying their petrol from the same sources as the long-distance vehicles at the cheaper rate. But that point can be met (and I would particularly draw the attention of my noble friend Lord Nathan to this when he is trying to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the direction we want) by having separate filling stations—sealed filling stations for the use of commercial vehicles only. There would be no great difficulty about that. After all, in the recent war, we had a great many filling stations up and down the country reserved for military vehicles, as we all knew to our cost when we drove in hopefully to get petrol in some out-of-the-way barren "desert." If that could be done in the war, with what were really commercial stations taken over by the Army or the Air Force, as the case may be, it can be done also to-day. There could be certain stations for the use of commercial vehicles only with the cheaper taxed petrol. That is a suggestion which I believe has been very carefully examined by people in a far better position to know the whole intricacies of the trade than. I am. I am told it is perfectly feasible and it would meet one objection.
LORD BALFOUR or INCHRYE: May I ask a question of the noble Lord with regard to his very interesting suggestion? If there were separate filling stations, how would you get over the difficulty that perhaps there might be a garage of: 100 cars, fifty commercial and fifty private, all the cars garaged together? The "black market" would then exist by just transferring petrol from one tank to another.
LORD STRABOLGI: You could forbid that sort of garage. It is perfectly easy. There are not many like that. I do not know of one. It a new one to me. I have always found that garages catering for commercial vehicles deal only with commercial vehicles. I am not talking of places where vehicles are put up for the night; I ant talking of filling stations on the roads, where cheating or stealing might take place unless some such suggestion as that which I put before your Lordships was carried out.
LORD LLOYD: Will the noble Lord forgive me for one minor interruption?
LORD STRABOLGI: Yes.
LORD LLOYD: It is merely that I am very interested in the point which the

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noble Lord has made. If His Majesty's Government are shortly to take over practically all the long-distance road hauliers, is it not really a matter for persuading His Majesty's Government upon rather than the road hauliers?
LORD STRABOLGI: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. Unfortunately, it does not lie with His Majesty's Government. My noble friend Lord Nathan would never be mixed up in any "black market" deal, still less my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport, Mr. Barnes. Perhaps I should say that neither of them would be mixed up in such a business. I do not differentiate. Neither of them would be guilty. But during the war there were, unfortunately, a number of dishonest people in the Army and Air Force—though not in the Navy! They used to make away with Government petrol, and the same thing would happen when the Government in due course take over long-distance motor transport companies. But I am much obliged to my noble friend for bringing that point up. It is at a lower level, I am sorry to say—or perhaps glad to say—that the thievery and "black market" business takes place. I do not think it is impossible to get over it if we really want to get over it. But we can satisfy the very important heavy-vehicle manufacturing industry, which can and does play a large and important part in the export trade, if we set about it in the right way.
There is only one other point I want to make. When (as I hope) my noble friend Lord Lucas and those who agree with him, including myself, have their way in this business, I hope that they will then tackle the question of the unsuitability of our roads to carry the increased motor traffic which they confidently expect to find in this country. When I hear the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, talking to-day of an increase of five times in the number of vehicles in this country to bring us up to the American level, I am frightened.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: So should I be.
LORD STRABOLGI: Particularly when we consider the position as it is in big cities, especially this Metropolis. I would ask my noble friend Lord Lucas who spoke with such ability on this occasion to tackle that question, Unlesswe
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do something effective to clear these bottlenecks it will become wholly impossible. Talking about America and the five times as many motor cars there as compared with this country, I may say that I was recently in Los Angeles. In that city there is no other means of transport—no buses and no trams, or very few, and no underground railway. You must have a motor car, or you walk. From one end of that sprawling city to the other is twenty miles, and every one in that huge city either has a motor car or has the use of one. There is a city spread all over the place, and they have wonderful roads—overhead roads, underground roads, and roads with no artificial crossings at all. They can accommodate the traffic. But if we try to reach that scale of motoring in this country we shall run into the most terrible congestion. That does not really affect the present argument, and I mention it only in a friendly way.
I notice that there are complaints about the high price of British cars abroad, compared with those of the American models. I do not know whether this will be borne out by the noble Marquess, Lord Willingdon, but I am told that the present-day American motor cars are not of such good quality as the pre-war models. I heard that from American motor users themselves, and I should think it is true. No doubt, however, they will get over those defects. How are we to get the British motor car on a price level with the American motor car? I think we have to recognize that it is really a matter of reducing the taxation on the industry in the future, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, hinted. Even if we do not press for it now, with the existing great sellers' market, it must be borne in mind for the future.,
The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, spoke of French and Italian competition. He did not mention another country where the competition is already serious, particularly in the field of a very efficient light car; that is, Czechoslovakia. When I was recently in South Africa 300 Skoda cars—excellent models, much to be compared with our own light models—were sold before they were shipped. So we have a good deal of competition to face, apart from the competition of the United States. I hope this debate will have the results that all your Lordships, including those on the Government Bench, desire.
3.43 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I would like to support the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. He has very fully covered all the points in favour of the new form of taxation, but there are one or two matters which I should like to emphasize from this side of the House. There is no doubt that under the present system of motor taxation we can never hope to cornpete successfully in the foreign markets of the world while our manufacturers have to labour under the very serious handicap of the present method of taxation, which limits the design of an efficient internal combustion engine. It is true, of course, that a new form of tax, known as the cubic capacity tax, was proposed recently, with a view to assisting the design of motor car engines, but it really can have no effect at all in that direction. All that it will do is perhaps slightly to improve the efficiency of the small horse power car. It is common knowledge that if we are to be successful in foreign markets we must produce a medium horse power car to compete with American production, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has said, that medium horse power car need not be more than 18 h.p. to 20 h.p. It must, however, be produced cheaply, and that means mass production. We cannot have mass production and at the same time produce a large number of different models of varying horse power. That was pointed out by the noble Marquess, Lord Willingdon.
It is now generally agreed among all manufacturers, and the organizations which support and look after private car interests are now in general agreement, that it is uneconomic to produce a small car for home use and a large one for overseas. I do not think that the new tax proposed would prevent the manufacturers from producing, say, a small 8 h.p. car, but it would mean that such a small car would have to stand on its merits and not be the result of a tax. That, I think, is important. It may even be right to consider tank production in this connexion, because I feel that our tank production suffered in some way from the fact that between the war years many of our best designers of internal combustion engines were concentrating on the design of the small engine rather than of the powerful type. The whole question of a change in taxation is, of course,
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vital to our exports, and any objections there may be against it must surely be weighed against the increased sales which we shall be able to obtain in the foreign markets.
Within the next eighteen months or, two years we shall have to face increasing competition from America, which will become a flood when the American home market has been satisfied. Unless we take steps now to readjust taxation, and the right car at the right price is produced, we shall never be able to compete at all. It may be argued that it would be unfair for the owner of a Rolls-Royce, for instance, to pay the same registration fees as the owner of an Austin-Seven. But surely it is the mileage and petrol consumption which really count, and the owner of a large car would, by way of increased petrol tax, pay his rightful proportion, even if the mileage were the same. I very much welcome the proposed new form of taxation, which I understand will produce the same amount of revenue for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and will at the same time allow this country to compete in foreign markets. The proposal will, I think, be more economic, fairer, and more flexible, and will not disturb the scientific design of an efficient engine. I hope that the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government will be able to give your Lordships some indication that the Government will give this matter their earnest attention.
3.48 p.m.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I, too, wish to support my noble friend, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in his Motion. As a member of your Lordships' House who has driven motor cars and trucks in countries ranging from China to Mexico, Estonia and New Zealand, I heartily endorse the fact that our small motor cars are no good overseas, except in towns where the roads are smooth. The moment they get into sand, or in the bush, they will not pull their weight if they have a load. But I want to go a little further than that to-day and to bring to your Lordships' notice another restrictive practice which loads the dice in favour of small motor cars; that is the question of insurance. When you tax a motor car Von have to have compulsory insurance—third party insurance within the meaning of the Act. If your Lordships would look at insurance proposal forms you

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will notice that the insurance rate goes up more rapidly on horse-power than it does on value. It is quite remarkable.
I would like to give your Lordships four sets of figures from a post-war proposal form of one of the bigger companies. A 10 h.p. motor car at £200 pays third party insurance of only los. A 20 h.p. motor car pays third party insurance of 7s. 6d. Whether you are run over by a io h.p. car or a 20 h.p. car, you still get the same amount of compensation, and therefore there is no earthly reason why the higher horse-power motor car of the same value should pay more. In fact, I think that most of your Lordships will agree that the higher horsepower motor car is very much safer. One sees small motor cars trying to pass a truck or lorry going up a long hill, and they take quite a time to get by. The high horse-power motor car can slow down, pull in behind, and still quite easily overtake, and the time the two vehicles are alongside each other is shortened.
Take now full comprehensive cover. A 10 h.p. motor car of £200 value pays £11 10s. for full comprehensive cover. A motor car of the same horse power but of double the value, £400, pays £12 2s. 6d. which is an increase of 12s. 6d. A 20 h.p. motor car of £200 value pays £15 15s. It is of the same value as the ro h.p. car but double the horse power, and therefore it has to pay an extra £4 5s. I suggest that if this new form of registration fee and petrol tax is eventually agreed to we must also devise a system of insurance which will not operate adversely on the motor car of higher horse power. This is another restriction on the designer. We should do the two things at the same time, and not take two bites at the cherry. I talked about this to some insurance men before the war, and one of them said he saw no reason why there should not be a flat rate for third party insurance within the meaning of the Act, and a sliding scale for comprehensive cover based on the spare part value and repair value. That is all I want to say. I would ask my noble friend Lord Nathan if he can give me an assurance that this point will be looked into at the same time, because if we agree that a horse power tax is a bad thing—and I am sure all your Lordships do that—
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then I think we must agree that any other similar restriction on our designers is equally undesirable.
3.53 p.m.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: My Lords, I do not propose to occupy much of your Lordships' time, especially after listening to the speeches made on this Motion so admirably introduced iby my noble friend Lord Lucas, with whom I am in almost entire agreement, apart from his curious reference to class distinction. I cannot see what on earth class distinction has to do with a motor car or, for that matter, with a refrigerator or any other commodity of a personal character, even down to an ox, an ass or anything that anybody else may covet. I should like to say how much I appreciated the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the very comprehensive survey which he made.
I am very interested in this matter because I have been associated with the motor industry for quite a long time—in fact until a few years ago. Casting my mind back, I have no doubt that the question of the horse power tax used very often to crop up in conversation. It created within one a sort of sense of despair; it was talked of very much in the same way as the weather, English cooking or any of our traditional national shortcomings. It somehow seemed that nobody did much about it; we used to shrug our shoulders and go on, like fools, suffering it sadly. Your Lordships have heard this afternoon of the extent to which it has had the effect of influencing design, and I will not go over that ground again. I am firmly convinced, however, that it is beyond all doubt that the type of car created by the British designer which eventually found its way overseas was not so suited to the strenuous conditions prevailing in the wide open spaces as was its American competitor.
When I was in conversation with my noble friend Lord Lucas some time ago he talked most interestingly on this question of the home market and on the excuse—which I have so often heard in the past—that we can never pretend to compete with the Americans because they have on their doorsteps a vast home market which enables them at once to tool up to make thousands of motor cars, and that we shall never be able to do that, no matter what we do. My noble friend

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made an excellent analogy with the Swiss watch-making industry, which I was rather sorry he did not mention this afternoon. With his permission, I will repeat it. He said he had never heard it argued that the Swiss watch-making industry was backed up by an enormous home market, and no one can doubt the importance of the export side of that industry. I think that is a matter worth bearing in mind when this particular aspect of the case is considered. For fear that it should be talked of any more, let us just reverse the situation for a moment and assume that the Americans, through some stroke of legislation or some geographical circumstance, found themselves obliged to make a type of car that was not well suited to the conditions prevailing on any other continent. I say that no matter if their home market were double present size, they would still riot sell cars in places to which they were not suited.
So far I have talked only of horse power, which of course is now very dead. As for the £1 per 100 c.c. tax, for the life of me I cannot see that it makes any difference at all. It is a matter of astonishment io me how it ever came to pass, because seems to be a case of out of the frying pan and, if not quite into the fire, perhaps on to the grill. I cannot pretend to have worked out details of a solution, although I have read and listened much, but I am pretty certain that the solution is simple. There may be objections by some particular categories of road users who would find themselves not quite so well placed as at present, but I think we have to face the situation that it is better to have—shall we say?—a minority grumble than to lose an enormous export market which we must not only maintain but create. Consequently, when the Government experts get down to the working out of the arithmetic of this -scheme—which I earnestly hope they will do forthwith—I trust that no one will be put off by any relatively unimportant matters of that sort.
3.58 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, as I listened to this debate I could not help wondering whether we were really talking about how to sell motor cars more than about how to tax them, or vice versa. It seemed to me that the matter could have been argued either way. However, perhaps
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I shall not transgress the bounds of order more than my predecessors if I make a few remarks upon the sale of motor cars which are intended to have a bearing upon the actual subject of the Motion which is before us. This is not the first occasion on which there has been an agitation to get rid of the horse power tax. I remember that many years ago—exactly how many I do not remember—the Automobile Association led a great crusade, either to get the horse power tax done away with or, alternatively, to get it reduced and to have a tax put on the fuel. The result, I think, has rather a moral for us to-day, because it ended up by our getting both. We got the horse power tax and we got the petrol tax, and the rapacious Chancellors of the Exchequer of the past were very loth to give them up again.
To-day, if we can get a tax based upon use, surely that would coincide far more nearly with the policy of His Majesty's Government, because would it not be the principle of fair user and fair share? The fellow who used his motor car most would pay most, and the fellow who used it least—perhaps being by reason of his employment, able to go out only at week-ends, and not able to cover a very large mileage—would pay least. It seems to me that that is no answer to the proposition. Those of us who have watched this question, and taken perhaps a rather detached view of the taxation aspect, have been amused by (shall I call them?) the antics of those who have claimed to speak at various times for the motor car industry. I can remember when the question of a cubic capacity tax was discussed not very long ago, one of the leaders of the British motor car industry jumped into the ring at once and announced that he was in favour of it. I am sure the noble Marquess will know whom I mean. Like the noble Duke who has just spoken, I cannot see anything between the cubic capacity tax and the horse power tax. In my opinion, they are both likely to have the same effect.
LORD STRABOLGI: Would the noble Earl excuse my interrupting him? Is he aware that when certain manufacturers came down on the side of the cubic capacity tax they had been told that a petrol tax was out of the question, and that that was the only alternative to the horse-power tax?
EARL HOWE: I was not aware of that, and I am obliged to the noble Lord for

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the correction. I merely looked at the facts, and I was not privy to the discussions which may have taken place round the back stairs or behind the scenes. We want to get a tax that is fair and, at the same time, we want to encourage sales of cars in this country. No one would like to see that more than I would, but I share the pessimistic views of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, on the subject. Until the roads of this country keep pace with the production of cars, to my mind it is quite ridiculous even to suggest the sale of more cars. The traffic density on the roads of this country is higher than that of any other country. There are statistics to prove that. The density is 13.7 per mile in this country, as against the equivalent figure for America of something like 7 or 8 per cent. It is more or less that ratio. Something must be done. I know the Government have it in mind to give us some trunk roads, but we shall not really get what we want until we have a road system that will compare with any in the world.
If we are going to encourage the sale of British cars abroad—which we all of us want to do—there are, it seems to me, several other things which must receive attention besides merely having a different form of taxation. One of the first things, I suggest, is that it will not be possible for more than a very few months longer, relatively speaking, to make little tin boxes on four wheels, paint them black, and send them overseas. We have to do something very much more than that. We have to improve the design of the British motor car altogether, and that is an engineering question. One of the first things we have to do is to improve the power-to-weight ratio of the British car, which will result in a performance worthy of it. I could give your Lordships many figures on this point which would weary and bore you, but I am thinking at this moment of a well-known two-litre British car which weighs 26 cwt. I am thinking too of its foreign equivalent, a German car which is now being built in this country, which weighs only 15 cwt. Those figures speak for themselves and require no explanation. At the present moment the British motor car manufacturer appears to be content for the main part—with the exception of new firms—to continue to turn out pre-war designs with very little in the way of improvement in the
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light of experience gained, the advance of science and all the rest.
The question of service has been referred to, and no one knows the importance of that more than I do. I remember talking to the Prime Minister of one of our Dominions just before the war. He happened to say to me, "I have a British car." I said I was glad to hear it. He said, "Everybody thinks I am mad." I said, "Good Lord! why is everybody taking that extraordinary view?" He said: "If anything goes wrong with my car and I want it put right."—and he told me that various accessories seemed to give him a great deal of trouble—"I have to go 140 miles to get a spart part or get anything done. If I have an American car I have to go only five or ten miles." It was not really a matter of luck, because I happen to know the Dominion he was talking about, and I know it is common talk out there. The service of British cars is simply not adequate. This seems to stray a long way from the Motion, but it really does bear upon it, because all I want to do—as I am sure does the mover of this Motion—is to improve the sales of British cars. Another thing that can be done—and your Lordships will probably smile at it, coming from me—arises on the question of racing. Outside this country motor racing is looked upon very differently from the way it is in this country. It is not understood here at all. Motor racing is looked upon abroad as being a great and a most powerful advertisement for the country from which the successful car comes. Yet in this country, at the present moment, there are no facilities whatever, either for racing or testing racing cars, for testing sports cars or motor cycles, or for carrying out really extended tests on tyres and all the other accessories. It is a very different pair of shoes abroad. Even in Italy, whole series of racing cars are being built. They are doing things the other way round. Having built a successful racing car and proved its performance, they de-tune it and put it into production.
I mention this only in passing, and I do not want to stress the point because I think it is really out of order. There are other things as well. This is a yarn I heard the other day, and I believe I heard it on very good authority. A purchaser bought one of the best known

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makes of British cars. Something went wrong with the works, so the chauffeur who was driving got out and crawled about underneath to pat things right—it was only a minor defeat. But to his astonishment, he found painted on the underside of the car the words: "Not for export—steel not up to standard." It seams to me that the manufacturers have to get down to things a little more than they are doing by allowing such words as those to be left there.
There is little more that I can add to what I have said. I most cordially support the Motion so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. He mentioned all the points and covered the ground. Do let us have a fair system of taxation. But do not let the Government try, as it were, to "hot stuff" the motor world by giving us both systems. Do not let them saddle us with the fuel tax and some sort of system like existing taxation. Let us have a proper system. The registration fee of £5 and a tax on fuel will be adequate to bring the Chancellor of the Exchequer the return he wants. That is what I feel would be fair, and to the advantage of the motor industry, and I entirely support the noble Lord in what he said.
4.10 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF Civil AVIATION (LOAN NATHAN): My Lords, I have listened to the whole of this discussion with very great interest. I am sure all your Lordships have appreciated, as I have, the speech with which my noble friend Lord Lucas opened the debate, informed as it was by experience and marked by moderation and persuasiveness of presentation. Indeed, I would apply that description to all the speeches than have been made on this interesting subject this afternoon. My noble friend Lord Strabolgi pointed out to your Lordships that the opinions expressed in the various speeches up to the time he spoke had been unanimous. I have noticed that noble Lords' speeches after him have adopted the same lines, and that they were unanimous in their views.
In a matter such as this, dealing with taxation, you will not expect that I should, in anticipation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on the Budget, be in a position to make any pronouncement as to policy. I can assure your Lordships, however, that I shall naturally make it my business to bring prominently to the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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what has been said to-day in the course of speeches on both sides of your Lordships' House, and the unanimity that has marked those speeches.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am particularly fortunate in having my noble friend Lord Nathan to reply on behalf of His Majesty's Government. would thank the noble Lord for his very charming personal references and I would thank all noble Lords who have joined in this debate for the complimentary remarks they have made. I do not know why the noble Lord who replied should think I was moderate. I must confess that I had in mind what he himself, as Minister responsible for the establishment of civil aviation in this country, would have said if someone had had the temerity to suggest that in future aero-engines should be faxed on a cubic capacity basis, and all his aeroplanes had to provide £90,000,000 by a weight tax as well. I do not think the noble Lord would have been very moderate. The simile is very true. It would have as effectively driven the British aeroplane out of the skies of the world as the British motor car has been driven off the roads of the world.
If I may have your Lordships' indulgence, I would like to deal with one or two points which noble Lords raised, because they are of extreme importance. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, that there may be a case for the protection of the home market, but to try and protect the home market by methods which will, equally successfully, cut your throat in the export market is a policy of the worst foolishness imaginable. Taxation, of course, is too heavy, and we are just realizing it to-day, but I would like to deal with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. I hope that I can go some way towards knocking a nail in the coffin of that hoary-headed fallacy of the congestion of the roads. Our grandmothers said exactly the same thing. At the period of the stage coach it was said: "What are our roads coming to?" When Stephenson invented the "Rocket" exactly the same was said. I expect the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, will in time have to defend congestion of the air. Let us have a sense of proportion in these things.
If you think you are not going to get new roads until the present roads are incapable of carrying traffic, I say that you

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are suffering under a fallacy. Necessity was always the mother of invention. We will find a way to build roads when our present roads are so overcrowded that they cannot be used. It is the case of demand absolutely making supply. I would point out that although, as my noble friend Lord Howe said, density of traffic in America is nothing to what it is in this country, it is not density of traffic in America, or lack of it, that contributes so much to the freedom from road accidents; it is the fact that all road vehicles in America are approximately of the same size, and travel at the same pace.
EARL HOWE: Do I understand you to say freedom from road accidents in America? Are you aware that there are 46,000 road accidents per annum in America?
LORD LUCAS of CHILWORTH: I am well aware that the accident ratio of America stands sixth or seventh on the list of ratios among traffic users in the world, and those are figures which can be produced. The other point to which I would like to reply was made by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, and concerns the alteration in tax. I suggested that you would not prevent an 8 h.p. car from being made if it was a commercial proposition for it to be made, but at the present time the 8 h.p. car is in the ascendancy because tax is biased in its favour and loaded against the larger motor car. I thank the noble Duke for reminding the House of the simile I once gave him about the Swiss watch industry. The output of Swiss watches exceeds 20,000,000 a year and no one has ever
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argued that the reason that Swiss watches are sold in every country in the world is because they have such a huge home market.
The Home market fallacy I would also like to explode. I do not think there is anything further to say, except perhaps in reply to my noble friend Earl Howe who has led such a fast life for so many years. I am not sure we shall ever cure him of the wish to lead a fast life for the remainder of his years. But with due regard to all that he said about the power-to-weight ratio, the basic truth is that, with good organization or with bad organization, never in the history of the British motor industry shall we sell our products in the export markets until we offer the right kind of goods at the right prices. Once again, I thank my noble friend for his kind reply, and I trust that he will have very great success in his dealings with his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

MOLD GAS ORDER, 1947.
Special Order proposed to be made by the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Mold Gas and Water Company: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for Affirmative Resolution, and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
House adjourned at twenty-two minutes past four o'clock.