Sitting of 10 July 1947

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  FELIXSTOWE PIER BILL
    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL
    Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
    DUNDEE CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
    Considered; to be read the Third time tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION

    Building Programme
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsayasked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the announcement by the secretary of the Association of Education Committees that the building programme up to 1951 can do little more than provide for the raising of the school-leaving age to 15, the increase in the birth-rate and new schools on housing estates; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): The educational building programme, like all others, is conditioned by the availability of building labour and materials, particularly steel and timber. I cannot attempt to assess the prospects as far ahead as 1951, but it is already clear that during 1947 and 1948 the greater part of the labour and materials likely to be available for educational building will be absorbed by the provision of the additional school accommodation required as a result of the raising of the compulsory school age, new housing
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    developments and the rise in the birth rate, and by the school meals programme. Other urgent requirements will, of course, continue to be met in so far as the available resources allow.
    Mr. K. Lindsayasked the Minister of Education whether he will now give clear directions to local education authorities on the building priorities for the next four years, based on the known increase in child population and on Government policy, so that authorities can shape their plans accordingly, earmark sites and proceed with projects capable of being finished and suitable to their areas, without wasting time and manpower on detailed costs which cannot be accurately measured at the moment.
    Mr. Tomlinson: As long ago as February, 1946, my predecessor gave local education authorities a list of the main educational needs, namely, the provision of accommodation for the raising of the compulsory school age, training for industry, training of teachers, school meals, and schools needed to serve new housing estates. At the same time, authorities were invited to proceed with the planning of essential projects outside those categories against the time when building would be possible provided that first priority projects were not impeded by their doing so. More recently, in Circular 143, I have indicated the building programme which I hope to see carried out in 1948. In subsequent years I shall aim at the greatest practicable increase in the volume of educational building, but it is not yet possible to estimate accurately the prospects as far ahead as 1951.
    Mr. Lindsay: Would the Minister consider a case I have from a local authority whose plans have been sent back, because they have not given detailed costs?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir, I will look into it.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are large houses in many parts of the country which cannot be fully occupied because of the impossibility of getting domestic staff, and which might be taken over and turned into schools?
    Mr. Tomlinson: As and where practicable, local authorities are already doing that.

    Teachers (Recruitment)
    Mr. K. Lindsayasked the Minister of Education whether he will give a reasonable assurance that the men accepted for emergency training colleges, some of whom are compelled to wait a further 12 months for admission, will find employment within the public system of education; on what building estimates the present recruitment policy has been based; and whether he will now establish a central training council to advise him on the supply and training of teachers, as recommended by the McNair Report.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I shall be in a better position to give assurances on this point when the necessary discussions with representatives of local education authorities and teachers' organisations have been completed. Recruitment policy is based on estimates of the establishments required for the increase in the school population due to the raising of the age and the larger birthrate in recent years, for a reduction in the size of classes to the limits prescribed by the regulations, and for some increase in provision for children under the age of five. It is not determined by estimate of what new school buildings will be provided within the next few years. As my predecessor explained last December, it has not been practicable to set up a Central Council for Teachers on a permanent footing until the area organisation contemplated by the McNair Report is in being. She, therefore, appointed an interim committee to give advice on questions relating to the supply, recruitment and distribution of teachers. I am sending my hon. Friend a list of its members.
    Mr. Lindsay: As my right hon. Friend is aware of the many ex-Servicemen awaiting admission to colleges, will he speed up the policy of secondment, so that more teachers can be used in the Services, Colonial Services and overseas, and thus help to retain trained teachers within the public system of education?
    Mr. Tomlinson: All these things are being examined with a view to accomplishing what the hon. Gentleman has in mind.

    Buglawton Hall, Congleton
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Education if he will reconsider his decision not to purchase Buglawton Hall for use as a grammar school
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    at Congleton, in view of the difficulties in building such a school for several years ahead.
    Mr. Tomlinson: It would be for the local education authority, not my Department, to buy this property. They have not asked me to reconsider my decision that the purchase cannot be approved and I do not consider that the expenditure of money, labour and materials involved in the purchase and adaptation of this property for school use, either temporarily or permanently, would be worth while.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the local authority have already said that they would like him to buy this property, and in view of the extreme shortage of educational facilities and the difficulty of building such a school, will he look into what the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) said on a previous Question, and do something about it?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have already pointed out that it would be for the local authority and not for me to purchase property of this kind, and I would also like to point out with regard to this property that the work required to be done would take as much material as would be necessary for building a new school.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the right hon. Gentleman's answer, I must make it clear that I am not in favour of buying these buildings.

    Grants to Parents, East Suffolk
    Mr. Dryden Brookasked the Minister of Education whether the scheme of the East Suffolk County Council under which grants of £35 are paid to parents irrespective of their financial circumstances if they wish to send their children to independent boarding schools, has been approved by him.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The East Suffolk local education authority's arrangements have not yet been approved, though the local. education authority may expect to receive grant on their expenditure if it is within the scope of Section 81 of the Education Act, 1944, and the regulations made thereunder. The Section is designed to prevent hardship and this purpose would not be met by a proposal to make a grant at a flat rate without regard to the parents' income.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: As these independent schools vary greatly, would it be competent for a county council to give £35 to a parent who wants to send his child to a most expensive school, when he could send it to one for £35 less?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Provided the local authority was satisfied of the necessity for making a grant to relieve hardship, they could do so.

    Examination, Burnham-on-Sea (Inquiry)
    Mr. Farthingasked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that at the Highbridge, Burnham-on-Sea, Church of England school, Somerset, the examination papers of nine candidates for higher school scholarships were tampered with; and what action is being taken to prevent such possibilities in the future.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have been informed of the steps taken by the local education authority in this matter, which is one for them to deal with in the first instance. I do not think there is any likelihood of recurrence.
    Mr. Farthing: Is the Minister aware that the whole of the people in Somerset interested in education are very disappointed at what is happening in this direction; and in view of the dissatisfaction over the inquiry and the report into the circumstances, will he make some further inquiry with a view to getting general satisfaction?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I will make further inquiries.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to a statement in the. "Burnham-on-Sea Gazette" and, I believe, in some other papers circulating in Somerset, to the effect that the culprit is unlikely ever to be traced; and does he not feel that in view of the extremely grave consequences in connection with these examinations further steps should be taken to find out who is the person responsible, if necessary, with the aid of the police?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have taken steps, and I have already promised to carry the inquiries further.

    Cadet Camps (School Leave)
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the dislocation of arrangements for A.T.C. and other camps, consequent upon his sudden decision to prohibit leave of absence being granted during the school term to cadets from schools maintained by local education authorities; and whether he will now permit such leave to be granted for attendance at cadet camps already arranged to take place in July, 1947.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The regulations have been in operation since 1st April, 1945, and the position appears to have been generally understood since, as 1 informed the hon. Member on 7th July, Cadet Forces do in fact try to avoid sending cadets of school units to camp during the school term. If, however, the local education authority is satisfied that there has been in any particular case a genuine misunderstanding and it is now impracticable to alter the arrangements, I should not seek to prevent cadet camps already fixed from taking place, provided the regulations are observed in future.
    Sir J. Mellor: While I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his answer, may I ask if he will see that it is conveyed to all the education authorities, so that they can take action?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, but I must add that all the local education authorities have not been concerned.

  POLICE OFFICERS' TRIAL, OLD BAILEY
  Mr. Hobsonasked the Attorney-General if the Director of Public Prosecutions has considered the evidence of the witnesses for the prosecution whose names were withheld in the recent Old Bailey trial of two police officers; and if any legal action is contemplated.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross): An appeal has been lodged in the case to which my hon. Friend refers, and while the matter remains sub judice it would not be proper for me to make any statement.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Wool Tops
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the President of the Board of Trade the present market price of wool tops, together with the controlled price to the manufacturers in the price structure for utility cloth.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir Stafford Cripps): Prices vary according to type and market. The controlled prices for tops for manufacture of goods for the home trade are laid down in the Control of Wool (No. 34) (Prices) Order, 1947, of which I am sending to the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is it not a fact that the controlled price has been below the world market price, and spinners are finding it difficult, and have found it difficult for six months, to get supplies for utility articles?
    Sir S. Cripps: I do not think that it is true that the controlled price has been below the market price, because the wool that is being used was bought at much lower prices and was coming from stock. I do not think there is any present difficulty, but if there is and any particular spinner will apply to the Wool Control they will adjust it.
    Mr. Osborne: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied that the position of keeping up the supplies of wool will be met when the next period starts?
    Sir S. Cripps: So far as I know.

    Utility Clothing
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement with regard to his shortterm and long-term policy for the production of utility clothing, in view of the desirability, in the public interests, to maintain adequate standards of quality.
    Sir S. Cripps: I do not think that I can add to the statement I made in reply to my hon. Friend during the Debate on consumer goods on 26th June. There is no question of discontinuing the scheme until we get a very much better supply of clothing, but its continuance thereafter will be considered when the time arrives.
    Mr. Cooper: Does my right hon. and learned Friend realise what very real safe-
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    guards are being provided for the public and manufacturers in eliminating some of the shoddy clothing, and can he give an undertaking that, as far as possible, the standard will be maintained permanently, even if clothing supplies become more prevalent, because the safeguard will be appreciated?
    Sir S. Cripps: I can quite understand that it has been appreciated, and continuance of the scheme will be considered when the time arrives.

    Clothing Coupons (Losses)
    Mr. Vaneasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, where any person reports a second loss by any member of a household of clothing coupons by theft or otherwise to the local assistance board, it is with his approval that a circular is sent to the effect that, while consideration will be given to the current application, no replacement will be made in the event of further losses by any member of the household; and whether he will ensure that all losses of clothing coupons reported will be properly investigated before a decision to refuse replacement is made.
    Sir S. Cripps: The warning given after the second claim has been made has my approval. Wherever possible it is given by an officer of the Assistance Board at an interview. Applications are considered so that special circumstances may be taken into account. but I cannot undertake to have an investigation made in every case of a third loss where there are no special circumstances.
    Mr. Vane: Is the Minister aware that in the circular letter referring to the subject it is not a warning but a definite statement, and if he accepts the principle of replacing lost clothing coupons, will he assure the House that this will be done according to the merits of the case and not according to any arbitrary rule?
    Sir S. Cripps: Applications are examined to see if there are special circumstances. It is only where there are no special circumstances that this action has been taken.

    Furniture Production, Edinburgh (Licence)
    Lord John Hopeasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his

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    Department is now in a position to issue to Captain Angus Buchanan, 40, Corstorphine Hill Gardens, Edinburgh, a licence to produce his patent furniture.
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir. The quantity of timber available for furniture production has been still further reduced since my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary last wrote to the noble Lord about this application, and I am afraid the issue of a licence is not at present possible.
    Lord John Hope: Cannot the President of the Board of Trade look into the possibility of this furniture being included in the utility furniture, because it has great utility value, since one man can carry a cupboard upstairs? There has been a great demand in Edinburgh for this type of furniture.
    Sir S. Cripps: We have looked into it very carefully, and I have looked into it myself, but it is impossible to include it in utility furniture for the technical reasons given.
    Viscount Hinchingbrook: Is this not a case where a new industry is stifled by regulations?
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir.

    Electricity Poles (Germany)
    Mr. Vaneasked the President of the Board of Trade how many poles, suitable for carrying overhead electricity lines, were obtained from Germany in the year 1946; and what increased numbers he expects to receive from the same source during 1947.
    Sir S. Cripps: Shipment of poles from Germany commenced late in September, 1946, and 5,348 poles suitable inter alia for carrying overhead electricity lines were received during that year. 19,590 poles have been received from this source during the first five months of this year. It is not possible to make any precise estimate of arrivals during the latter half of the year, but we hope that they will continue at about the same rate as in the first part of the year.
    Mr. Vane: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied with that very small rate, and can he assure the House that steps are being taken to increase the supply in view of the almost unlimited quantity of such poles?
    Sir S. Cripps: I understand that there are no unlimited quantities. That is one of the difficulties. There is timber suitable for other purposes, and we are doing our utmost to get all the poles we can.
    Mr. Heath coat Amory: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman make sure that a fair proportion of poles will be made available for electricity purposes?
    Sir S. Cripps: That is being done at the present time.

    Board of Trade (Correspondence)
    Brigadier Raynerasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the number of clerical staff employed by his Department in answering the 1,250,000 letters of complaint received monthly by his Department; and what is the average time devoted to answering each letter.
    Sir S. Cripps: I am afraid this information is not available, since separate staff is not employed for this particular purpose. I should make it clear to the hon. and gallant Member that the figure quoted covers the whole of the Board's inward correspondence and not letters of complaint only.
    Brigadier Rayner: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that if he could manage to cancel the less useful and most irritating section of the regulations issued by his Department a very large body of complaints would be met and the letters with which his Department would have to deal would be reduced by three-quarters?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am afraid there would be so many protests from industry for so doing that we would have greater correspondence.

    Cotton Industry (Paper Tubes)
    Mr. Shackletonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the reduced stocks of paper tubes for the cotton-spinning industry; that unless effective action is taken in the near future to assist the manufacturers of these tubes with the requisite raw material there is danger of a crisis developing in the cottonspinning industry in early August; and what steps are being taken to deal with this potential industrial emergency.
    Sir S. Cripps: I am aware of the shortage of paper tubes and arrangements have been made to increase the supplies available.
    Mr. Shackleton: Will the President of the Board of Trade ensure that the Paper Controller keeps in close contact with the cotton industry, because through this crisis of reduced stocks of paper tubes some firms have been in danger of closing down some of their spindles?
    Sir S. Cripps: It is because close contact has been kept that we made arrangements to have more tubes made.
    Mr. Stanley Prescott: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that a coal crisis is feared more in Lancashire than is the crisis referred to by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Shackleton)?

    Japanese Goods (False Markings)
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are in contemplation to prevent the use of such expressions as "Made in England" or "Made in Great Britain" by Japanese manufacturers for goods made in Japan.
    Sir S. Cripps: Our representative on the Far Eastern Commission has recently received instructions to raise the whole question of Japanese commercial malpractices and the best means of preventing them.

    Educational Books
    Professor Gruffyddasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now completed his discussions with the Minister of Education; and if, in view of the disastrous lack of books in schools and colleges of all grades and of the need to make full use of the additional year due to the raised school-leaving age, he is now prepared, in allocating paper, to give a definite priority to books for schools and colleges.
    Sir S. Cripps: In agreement with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, I am now reserving a quarter of the allocation of paper for books for educational or export purposes, with the proviso that the same proportion as hitherto of the remaining three-quarters shall also be used for educational books. In addition 1,000 tons of the special reserve of 1,500 tons is earmarked for educational text books.
    Professor Gruffydd: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that his statement will be received with very great delight in the schools?
    Mr. Wilson Harris: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say how the quota is divided between export and educational books?
    Sir S. Cripps: That is left to the discretion of the publisher.

    Bottles
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to alleviate the acute shortage of soft-drinks bottles, especially for squash and cordials in view of the holiday season.
    Sir S. Cripps: We are doing all we can to assist the bottle manufacturers to obtain the greatest possible output within the limits imposed by the available supplies of fuel and soda ash. The demand for bottles continues, however, to be greater than the supply, and the public can help by returning used bottles promptly. Many local authorities have assisted us greatly, as part of their- salvage activities, by returning empty bottles to the trade and broken glass to the manufacturers; I am very grateful to them for this work.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my right hon. and learned Friend satisfied that adequate publicity is being given to this urgent need for the return of empty bottles?
    Sir S. Cripps: We have done our best, and I have no doubt that this Question will assist.

    Factories, Grantham (Allocation)
    Mr. Lytteltonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether Mr. F. S. Cotton, in whose bankruptcy a final dividend of 2s. 4d. in the £, making 14s. in the £ in all as a composition, was pay able to the creditors on 6th May, 1947, is the same Mr. Cotton to whose syndicate the Grantham factories were allocated by his Department in June, 1947.
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Lyttelton: May I ask the President of the Board of Trade two other questions, the first of which is, whether in view of the disastrous results both to the workers and the shareholders as a result of the cancellation of a decision reached by two of his predecessors, it was wise to allot these factories to a syndicate with this financial backing; and, secondly, in view of the great public and

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    local concern which these allocations have caused, whether he will promise the House to set up an independent public inquiry into the circumstances?
    Sir S. Cripps: The answer to the first supplementary question is that the financial backing was not that of Mr. Cotton but that of another gentleman, and with regard to the second question, the answer is, "No."
    Mr. Lyttelton: Can the President of the Board of Trade say whether it is quite true that this gentleman headed a syndicate to whom this factory has been allotted? I beg to give notice, in view of the entirely unsatisfactory nature of the answer, my hon. Friends and I will take an early opportunity of raising this as a matter of urgency.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he will identify the members of the group to whom he allocated the factories recently occupied by Grantham Productions, Limited; whether this group has now completed the purchase of the company's assets; and how much working capital is available for production of agricultural tractors;
    (2) what experience qualified the group to whom he allocated the factories recently occupied by Grantham Productions, Limited, to engage in the production of agricultural tractors; and what is the estimated production from these factories during the next 12 months.
    Sir S. Cripps: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statement which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, made in this matter in the Debate on consumer goods on 26th June. According to my latest information, the acquisition of the assets has not been completed.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: What is the reason for all this secrecy? Why, in spite of constant Questions should these names be withheld from the public—why?
    Sir S. Cripps: I know of no names being withheld from the public or any constant secrecy.
    Sir J. Mellor: In the statement to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman referred, did not the Parliamentary Secre-
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    tary say that the Board of Trade was satisfied that this group had sufficient capital available not only for the acquisition of the assets, but also for the production of tractors? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman still satisfied?
    Sir S. Cripps: We are satisfied from inquiries we have made in the ordinary course in the City of London that the persons supporting the group had ample financial backing.
    Mr. Lyttelton: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman get into touch with the Bankruptcy Department in the Board of Trade and ask them to scrutinise the "London Gazette" in the future?
    Several Hon. Members
    Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members must not rise when the Speaker is on his feet. I am not quite clear how far these Questions are in Order, because notice has been given that this matter will be raised on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Lyttelton: On a point of Order. I did not give notice to raise it on the Adjournment. I gave general notice.
    Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman said he was going to raise the general question on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir, with all respect; I said that I would take an early opportunity of raising this matter as a question of urgency.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Are we to understand that if there is a series of Questions more or less dealing with the same subject, and if on the first Question somebody gives notice to raise the matter on the Adjournment, that any further supplementaries on the subsequent Questions will be out of Order.
    Mr. Speaker: That is a difficult question, because, after all, it is out of Order to ask a supplementary question when notice has been given that the matter will be raised on the Adjournment. On subsequent Questions on the same subject, if there are supplementaries dealing with the same point, surely, they are out of Order. However, it must be a matter for my discretion.
    Mr. Oliver Stanley: Further to that point of Order. It is obviously a difficult point, but do I understand, Mr. Speaker,

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    that your Ruling depends on notice having been given to raise a matter on the Adjournment. because my right hon. Friend did not give that notice, but he said, as will be seen in HANSARD tomorrow, that he would raise the matter as early as possible?
    Mr. Hoy: Is it not apparent that the right hon. Gentleman did rise in his place and say that he and his hon. Friends would take the earliest opportunity of raising this matter on the Adjournment?
    Mr. Lyttelton: As the hon. Gentleman has raised this question, I think it will be within the recollection of the House that I particularly did not say we were going to raise it on the Adjournment. I said that we were going to raise it as a matter of urgency. Many courses are open to us, and one of them is to put down a Motion to call for a public inquiry.
    Earl Winterton: Further to that point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Can you give a Ruling now that this will not preclude any of us from putting down a Motion calling upon the Government to appoint a Select Committee of Inquiry or asking for a judicial inquiry into what we regard as a public scandal.
    Mr. Speaker: There is nothing to prevent that. That is perfectly in Order.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: On a point of Order. While all this talk has been going en the last part of my second Question has not been answered. May I repeat it to the President of the Board of Trade, if he will do me the courtesy of listening—
    "what is the estimated production from these factories during the next 12 months?"
    Sir S. Cripps: That will depend on what will happen to them.

    Paper Supplies
    Mr. Somerville Hastingsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the shortage of educational books and of the wasteful production of advertisements of medical and other products sent through the post, he will consider the appointment of a small committee to make recommendations as to the best use of the paper that is available.
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir. Allocations of paper for different purposes are already
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    considered periodically by an Inter-Departmental Committee and I do not consider that the appointment of a further committee would assist the production of educational books.
    Mr. Hastings: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that doctors are being deluged with circulars concerning medical products in which they have no interest, and could not some way be found to save all that paper?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am afraid that it is difficult to discriminate between valuable and valueless literature.
    Mr. K. Lindsay: Could the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what is meant by the phrase "educational books," and whether it includes republications of the novels of Scott and Dickens and certain other authors, and could he promise that in future that one section of the trade will be responsible for this?
    Sir S. Cripps: If the hon. Member will put those questions down, I will answer them.
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of His Majesty's Government's policy that the paper industry should make progress without delay in recovering its export markets, he -will ensure that supplies of paper for export in the 25th licence period are not further restricted, thus permanently preventing British exporters from beginning their overseas trade.
    Mr. Turtonasked the President of of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that exports of high-quality paper labels are being impeded by shortage of paper; whether the production of printed paper for export or for use as covers on exported goods receives priority over the use of paper for export as plain paper; and what instructions the Paper Control have received in order to encourage this branch of the printing trade.
    Sir S. Cripps: We are seeking to maintain, and, where possible, to increase our exports of paper and paper products. The position is reviewed at regular intervals, and while a reduction in the export allocation for plain paper has been necessary for the present licensing period, every effort is made to maintain a fair balance between the conflicting claims.
    Mr. Fletcher: In view of the very high ratio of hard currency earnings that this industry provides, will the President of the Board of Trade give special attention to the necessity of treating its demands sympathetically?
    Sir S. Cripps: Certainly, but as the hon. Gentleman will have heard from the questions this afternoon there are other claims upon paper.
    Mr. Turton: Will the Minister answer the second part of my Question:
    "whether the production of printed paper for export or for use as covers on exported goods receives priority over the use of paper for export as plain paper ?"
    Sir S. Cripps: There is no priority one way or the other. One has to try to balance the treatment between the two.
    Mr. Turton: Arising from that answer, is the Minister aware that his policy is impeding export because the manufacturers of these highly finished articles are not allowed the necessary paper and materials?
    Sir S. Cripps: That happens in the case of a great many goods. You cannot export a certain type of goods only. The demand has to be taken generally.
    Mr. K. Lindsay: While making these trading connections, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman appreciate that we obtain ten times the value when this paper is made up into books?
    Mr. Cooper: Would not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the time is really ripe now for a careful review of the whole of our paper allocations to see that we provide for the requirements of technical books, in preference to advertisements, bill-posting and so on?
    Sir S. Cripps: That is a review which is continually being undertaken.

    Hotels (Linen Supplies)
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the President of the Board of Trade whether additional supplies of linen will be made available to those hotels which specialise in catering for overseas visitors.
    Sir S. Cripps: The British Tourist and Holidays Board announced on 8th July a scheme for the distribution of an allocation of single linen sheets to hotels and similar establishments catering for tran-
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    sient visitors. Supplies are limited and preference will therefore be given to establishments of special importance to overseas visitors and those whose equipment suffered as a direct result of the war, e.g. from enemy action, requisitioning, billeting, etc. Pillow-cases, bolster-cases and table linen are not rationed, and no special arrangements are being made for their supply to hotels.
    Mr. Scott-Elliot: Is my right hon. and learned Friend satisfied that the countless visitors to this country will be properly looked after?
    Sir S. Cripps: We are doing the best we can for them in difficult circumstances.
    Mr. Beechman: Will the President of the Board of Trade bear in mind that household linen is urgently needed by other similar establishments which provide much-needed holidays and recreation for the citizens of our own country?
    Sir S. Cripps: That is being borne in mind, as is the fact that linen is also required for domestic use.

    Salvage Collection (Special Appeal)
    Mr. Scott-Elliotasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the importance of salvage, he will arrange for an improvement in the existing method of collection, having particular regard to the shortage of paper.
    Sir S. Cripps: The lord mayors, mayors, and chairmen of Urban District Councils in the more populous areas in England and Wales have been asked in a personal letter from the Lord President of the Council, the Minister of Healthy the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself, to influence their local authorities in the direction of providing adequate salvage collection machinery. A similar appeal has also been sent to Convenors of County Councils, Lord Provosts and Provosts in Scotland. I cannot too strongly emphasise the necessity for salvage to be kept separate from ordinary refuse.
    Mr. George Wallace: In view of the extreme importance of salvage at this time, would my right hon. and learned Friend state whether he is prepared to reintroduce the wartime schemes, and in particular to bring back the honorary advisers.

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    valuable men who have now more or less been given the sack, but whose experience would be very useful to the country?
    Sir S. Cripps: I do not think that that would assist in the present circumstances. I think it is the local authorities whom we need to stimulate at present.
    Mr. Collinsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the position of waste paper supplies is still unsatisfactory and, as it will affect the production of plaster board and other materials badly needed in industry, if he will approach the B.B.C. with a view to enlisting their co-operation in instituting and maintaining a waste paper salvage campaign.
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir. The B.B.C. are co-operating with my Department by devoting the "Production Report" to be broadcast on 15th July to salvage matters, and consderable reference will be made to the need for saving waste paper.
    Mr. Collins: Does my right hon. and learned Friend hope to maintain this, because a single broadcast will not produce many results and it is the only medium which can save paper without at the same time involving large expenditure?
    Sir S. Cripps: The B.B.C. are very co-operative but have many other things to do.
    Brigadier Mackeson: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that that is not the only way to save paper, and that he should cut out the "bumph"?
    Mr. Rankin: Could my right hon. and learned Friend say whether it is the case that we are importing waste paper supplies and, if so, to what extent?
    Sir S. Cripps: Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.
    Mr. Keelingasked the President of the Board of Trade how collections of waste paper and food scraps compare in quantity with those made two years ago.
    Sir S. Cripps: Collections of waste paper amounted to 51,783 tons in April, 1947, as compared with 52,569 tons in April, 1945. Overall figures of waste food collections are not available, but collections by local authorities were
    2418
    25,887 tons and 35,217 tons, respectively, in these months.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the President of the Board of Trade give publicity to the fact that one ton of food scraps will put the bacon from one whole pig on the breakfast table, and also to the fact that if collections of waste paper and food scraps were restored to their wartime level we could save millions of dollars?
    Sir S. Cripps: Publicity has been given to that on quite an extensive scale.

    Clothing Fasteners
    Mr. Skinnardasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the difficulty experienced by mothers of very young children in obtaining white fasteners for home-made clothing; and if he will take steps to increase the supply of these articles.
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir. The industry is, with my encouragement, increasing its capacity in order fully to meet the home demand, a large part of which was previously supplied by Germany.
    Mr. Skinnard: Is the Minister aware that, although the mothers concerned are grateful for this stimulation of the manufacturers, they are complaining of the difficulty of obtaining such articles in the multiple stores where they have hitherto been obtainable?
    Sir S. Cripps: I was not aware of that particular point, but I will look into it.

    Tyres
    Mr. W. Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to make tyres both for commercial and private use more readily and rapidly available to the public.
    Sir S. Cripps: The production of tyres which has been temporarily held back by a shortage of carbon black will increase as soon as that material becomes available in greater quantities as a result of the arrangements recently made.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the President of the Board of Trade explain more fully than has been done up to now the great lack of foresight and planning in his Department in the matter of carbon black, and will he say what steps he has taken to relieve this on a permanent basis instead of on a temporary one?
    Sir S. Cripps: That was explained in the course of the Debate. It was not lack of foresight on the part of the Department but was due to an unfortunate strike in America. Investigations are being made and a Committee is sitting to discover whether we can have a permanent substitution for the American product.
    Mr. Harrison: Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether there has been any recent change as between commercial and private allocations of these tyres?
    Sir S. Cripps: If the hon. Member will put that question down, I will deal with it.
    Major Cecil Poole: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consult with his colleague, the Minister of Supply, and inquire into the very large quantities of tyres which have been put into storage by that Department and which might be released ?

    Factory Works, Hapton (Release)
    Mr. Randallasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make a statement regarding his approach to the Minister of Supply for some part of the Magnesium Electron Works, Hapton, Lancashire, being released for new industrial use.
    Sir S. Cripps: The Magnesium Electron Works is a special purpose factory for the production of materials of strategic importance the capacity from which must be available at comparatively short notice. It is equipped with plant which could not be moved without, to a very large degree, destroying it. The buildings are not in any case suitable for ordinary industrial use although part of the premises are at present being used by the Ministry of Supply for storage for which replacement space would be very difficult to find. For these reasons my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply is unable to release the premises at present. The question is however being kept under review.
    Mr. Randall: Is the Minister aware that the buildings which are used for storing purposes contain stores which are in
    2420
    short supply at the moment and which should be sold, thereby making the buildings available?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am afraid that I am not aware of that, because I am not responsible for the storage.

    New Factories (Allocation)
    Mr. Cooperasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the procedure adopted regarding the allocation of new factories now being built to the instructions of his Department or which were built to the instructions of the Ministry of Supply during the war and now being transferred to his Department.
    Sir S. Cripps: Such factories are allocated to applicants selected as best able to occupy them in the national interest, having regard specially to the type of industry and employment needed in a particular area. A firm desiring such a factory is advised by the Board of Trade Headquarters or Regional Offices as to the location most likely to meet its requirements.
    Mr. Cooper: Could my right hon. and learned Friend say whether or not the Tees-side Industrial Development Board was consulted in regard to the allocation of the Tarran factory, Middlesbrough, which was recently allocated to the G.E.C., and does he not agree that it would be a good thing if the Regional Organisation for Industry were brought into the picture, in order that local considerations and opinions can be given full scope and opportunity for expression.
    Sir S. Cripps: I cannot give an answer in that particular case, but I will write to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Does the original answer of the right hon. and learned Gentleman mean a change of policy in regard to this matter?
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir.
    Mr. Marples: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider publishing a list showing the people or firms to whom these factories are allocated?
    Sir S. Cripps: That is done in the "Board of Trade Journal" from time to time.

    Motor Cars (Import Licences)
    Mr. David Rentonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that import permits for motor cars have been granted on the ground that they were gifts in circumstances in which an ordinary commercial sale had in fact taken place between a seller overseas and a buyer in this country; and whether he will take steps to put an end to this practice which deprives the Treasury of Purchase Tax and Import Duty and impairs this country's foreign exchange arrangements.
    Sir S. Cripps: Applications for licences to import motor cars are granted only when the supporting evidence indicates that the gifts are genuine and that there is no loss of foreign exchange, and, save in exceptional circumstances, only when the gifts are from near relatives. If the hon. Member will send me particulars of any cases in which there are grounds for believing that licences have been obtained on false or misleading statements, I will have them investigated. Purchase Tax and Import Duty are payable on all cars of foreign manufacture imported as gifts.

    Newsprint
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the interests of the adequate presentation of news and views of local, national and international importance and also to meet the needs of advertisers and the convenience of the public, he will allocate such supplies of newsprint to the Press of this country as will enable it to maintain papers of the present or an increased size; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir S. Cripps: As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already said in his statement on the import programme on 30th June, it is regrettably necessary to restrict imports, and the sizes of newspapers will consequently have to be reduced.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Yes, but is the President of the Board of Trade aware that any cut in newsprint which is contemplated will bring a saving of dollars which will be very trivial compared with the inevitable curtailment of publicity which will develop for those things which are the very essence of our British way and purpose?
    Sir S. Cripps: I quite appreciate the value of the Press and am very sorry that it has to be curtailed.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Could we at least have an assurance that the same percentage cut will be applied to Government papers?
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the shortage, which is so evident, could my right hon. and learned Friend tell us what supplies were given for the publication of 250,000 copies of a very pornographic book that came from America?
    Sir S. Cripps: If the hon. Member will send me particulars, I will look into it.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Can a copy be placed in the Library?

    Horticultural Industry (Packing Materials)
    Mr. George Jegerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the importance of packing materials for the horticulture industry; and whether supplies of cellophane will be made available for wrapping and protecting various fruits and vegetables.
    Sir S. Cripps: Within the limited supplies which are available, it is open to cellulose film manufacturers to provide what quantity they can for wrapping fruit and vegetables.
    Mr. Jeger: Would my right hon. and learned Friend mind repeating the answer? I could not hear a single word of it.
    Sir S. Cripps: Perhaps the hon. Member will read it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

    Timber Imports
    Mr. Sparksasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to secure imports of softwood timber from Poland and hardwoods from Burma and Borneo.
    Sir S. Cripps: In the recent Anglo-Polish trade negotiations we have pressed strongly for a resumption of exports of softwood from Poland to the United King-dam; owing to the great need for softwood timber for reconstruction in Poland, the Polish Government does not feel able to release any for export at present but has undertaken to inform us should the position change. In both Burma and

    2423
    Borneo the production of hardwood has been seriously reduced as a result of war devastation and requirements for local reconstruction still further limit the amounts available for export. We are, however, purchasing all suitable supplies offered from these countries, either as logs or as sawn timber.
    Mr. Sparksasked the President of the Board of Trade why softwood timber imports from the U.S.S.R. and the Baltic States, Finland and Sweden have considerably declined; and what imports may be expected in the remaining months of this year from the countries named.
    Sir S. Cripps: As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement published in the "Board of Trade Journal" of 29th March, of which I am sending him a copy. Shipments in the first five months of this year were well below shipments in the same months of the preceding year, but the shipping season from North Europe opened much later this year and figures for the first five months give no indication of annual supplies. Regarding the latter part of the Question, a statement on prospective supplies from the U.S.S.R. cannot be made, until the conclusion of the negotiations at present being conducted by the Secretary for Overseas Trade in Moscow. Arrangements have been made for the supply of 175,000 standards of regular specifications from Finland and a similar quantity from Sweden.
    Mr. Sparks: Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether the negotiations taking place in Moscow at the present time are on the basis of a short-term agreement for imports or are they in addition based on a long-term agreement for progressive increases in imports?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am afraid my hon Friend will have to await the results.
    Mr. W. Fletcher: Will the amounts of timber mentioned include that which was supposed to be coming against the 5,900 tons of rubber delivered to the U.S.S.R.?
    Sir S. Cripps: I have not mentioned any quantities of timber as regards the U.S.S.R.

    Cotton Mills (Fuel Allocation)
    Mr. Sutcliffeasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give an assurance that cotton mills which are able to build up a stock of coal this summer will be allowed to keep it during the winter months; and whether employers can make their fuel assessments on the basis that allocated deliveries will not be reduced or withheld for diversion to mills which have not laid in stocks.
    Sir S. Cripps: In announcing to the House the coal allocation to industry for the summer months on 1st May, I explained that the winter allocations would be based on the assumption that each firm had accumulated a stock sufficient to meet three weeks' winter requirements by the end of October. I also stated that if firms accumulated larger stocks, these would not be taken into account in framing the winter allocations.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give a definite assurance that those firms now able to lay in stocks, even on a small scale, of low grade fuel, will not have their allocations of high grade fuel lessened during the winter ?
    Sir S. Cripps: I cannot do more than repeat what I have already said twice.
    Mr. Prescott: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that many mills have received nowhere near their allocation of solid fuel?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am not aware of that. On the whole they have received more because they are putting more to stock than was anticipated.

  ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES

    Load-Shedding
    Mr. Stanley Prescottasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware of widespread concern, particularly in the north of England, at the great risk of load-shedding of electrical power next winter; and if he will make a statement, particularly as to savings recently effected.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Gaitskell): Yes, Sir. A statement will be made as soon as possible indicating the

    2425
    progress which has been made in dealing with this problem and any further steps which the Government consider necessary.
    Mr. Prescott: When will "as soon as possible" be possible?
    Mr. Gaitskell: I hope within the next two weeks.

    Domestic Consumption (Rationing)
    Mr. Prescottasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether his Department has formulated a scheme for compulsory rationing of domestic electricity consumption.
    Mr. Gaitskell: I would refer the hon. Member to the Prime Minister's statement on 27th March when he told the House that a number of alternative schemes for rationing domestic electricity consumption had been formulated and examined and also to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power on 2nd April in the course of which details of these schemes and the difficulties in the way of applying them were explained.

    Transferred Power (Scotland and England)
    Colonel Clarkeasked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) what amount of power is transferred from Scotland to England and vice versa during the hours of heavy industrial load, giving the maximum supplied in kilowatts and the number of units;
    (2) how many units of electricity were supplied from Scotland to England during the year 1946; and the maximum load in kilowatts.
    Mr, Gaitskell: During 1946 there was a net transfer from Scotland to England of 47 million units of electricity. The maximum power transfer was 146,000 kilowatts from Scotland to England (which occurred from 9 to 9.30 a.m. on 14th March) and 80,000 kilowatts from England to Scotland (which occurred from 10.30 to 11 p.m. on 30th December).

    Charges
    Mr. Channonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, whether he is aware that some electricity authorities in the country base their tariffs substantially on the rate-
    2426
    able value of a consumer's house with the result that many persons find that although they consume and burn less electricity than their neighbours they have to pay more; and whether he will take steps at an early date to ban such tariffs, with a view to encouraging greater economy in the use of electricity.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir." As regards the second part, the methods of charging for electricity have recently been under expert examination but we must wait until the industry is nationalised before these tariff anomalies can be successfully tackled.
    Mr. Blackburn: In view of the extraordinary urgency of this problem in this country, may I ask my hon. Friend to make representations now to the local authorities that to deal effectively with the problem, the matter has to be dealt with before it is too late?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Not only local authorities are concerned. It is quite out of the question, at short notice, to interfere with millions of private agreements.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Building and Civil Engineering (Manpower)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Labour how he accounts for the difference between the figure of 1,280,000, given by him on 1st July of the manpower in building and civil engineering, and the figure of 1,040,000, quoted on page 31 of the Housing Returns, 31st May, 1947 (Cmd. 7152), the source of this latter figure being his Department.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. G. Isaacs): The figure of 1,040,000 relates only to insured male workers aged 16 to 64. It includes the unemployed. The figure of 1,280,000 excludes the unemployed, but includes boys aged 14 and under 16, female workers aged 14 and under 60 and also employers and those working on their own account.

    Nationalised Industries (Absenteeism)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Labour if it is the Government's policy that all avoidable absentees and unofficial

    2427
    strikers in nationalised industries shall in future be prosecuted; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Isaacs: No, Sir.
    Mr. Osborne: Does not the Minister think that it is very unfortunate that miners are being threatened with prison, and will he see that this persecution mania is not applied to other nationalised industries?
    Mr. Isaacs: It is most comforting to us to have the hon. Gentleman's interest in this question of so-called persecution, but the point is that if any action is taken it will be taken by the National Coal Board as an employer against a person guilty of a breach of contract, and that is not a question of just absenteeism.

    Staggered Hours
    Mr. Osborneasked the Minister of Labour what other industries will be asked to follow the lead of the engineering trades union leaders and employers in agreeing to work staggered hours; in what industries can the greatest fuel saving be effected; and if all industries predominantly employing men will be urged to co-operate before a special appeal is made to those trades mainly employing women.
    Mr. Isaacs: With the help of both sides of the National Joint Advisory Council, all other industries are being asked to cooperate in solving this problem of spreading the electricity load during the coming winter. In particular, on the suggestion of Regional Boards, I have written specially to the furniture, clothing and printing industries in view of the special importance of these industries in certain districts. As regards the second and third parts of the Question, much will depend on local circumstances and the peculiar conditions of individual industries, which must be left to the Regional Boards and their local or district committees to assess.
    Mr. Osborne: May 1 first congratulate the Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] —Oh, yes—on getting the workers and the employers together on this? Will he see that the agreements that responsible trade union leaders make are not broken by the unofficial shop stewards?
    Mr. Isaacs: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's reference. We have no authority or power to see that these strikes do not occur, but I would like to emphasise once again that unofficial action like that is not only detrimental to the proper authority of the trade unions, but, in present circumstances, highly detrimental to the welfare of the country.
    Mr. Harrison: Failing agreement among many firms to co-operate fully in the difficult problem of staggering working hours, would the Minister be prepared to con sider some form of compulsion?
    Mr. Isaacs: That question is under consideration. We have the views of the Joint Advisory Council, and I hope to make a statement, probably next week, as to what steps are being taken.
    Mr. Hobson: Would the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Home Secretary for the abolition of double summer-time, which is a contributory cause of the shedding of the load ?
    Mr. Isaacs: There is some difference of opinion whether double summer-time is an advantage or a disadvantage.

  SENIOR CIVIL SERVANTS (SALARIES)
  Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his attitude to the demand by senior civil servants for increases in salary; and to what extent prorata increases would have to be granted to all grades of the Civil Service.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): My right hon. Friend has undertaken to consider this claim in all its aspects.
  Mr. Butcher: Will the right hon. Gentleman advise his right hon. Friend to address a request to the National Coal Board for information as to the salaries they pay their officials?

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Anglo-American Loan Agreement
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to ask the U.S.A. to agree to a modification of the Anglo-

    2429
    U.S. Loan Agreement so as to permit Britain to buy commodities from soft currency countries and at the same time to restrict imports from hard currency countries.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: A comprehensive approach to the U.S. Government will be necessary as part of the response to Mr. Marshall's speech. Meanwhile, it is undesirable to deal piecemeal with particular aspects of Anglo-American relations.
    Mr. Lipson: Does that answer mean that, until agreement has been reached with regard to the Marshall offer, no action will be taken to amend the Anglo-U.S. Loan Agreement, and if so, cannot that decision be reconsidered in view of the urgency of the matter and the very great public anxiety that there should be a revision of that Agreement?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: The urgency, of course, is well realised. We have had a Debate this week in this House on this matter, but I cannot add to what I have said already.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: Is the Financial Secretary aware that on this question the American Government have already said that they are not ready to accept any modification, and will not this have a grave effect on whatever cuts have to be made in our import programme?

    Savings (Accrued Interest)
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will explain the estimate on page 5 of the National Savings Committee's weekly campaign circular, dated 5th July, 1947, that for the week ended 21st June the total amount of savings remaining invested was increased, in respect of accrued interest, by £2,265,000; and whether the increase in the capital value of savings certificates was treated as interest for this purpose.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: This figure, which is given regularly every week, is the estimated amount of interest accrued during the week, on Savings Bank deposits and on certificates outstanding.

    P.A.Y.E. Tax Tables (Envelopes)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the new Pay As You Earn tax tables are being posted in envelopes
    2430
    16 inches by 11 inches in size; and whether, in order to conserve paper, he will instruct his Department to fold the tables and to use envelopes half the size.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Wrappers are provided for this purpose and envelopes should be used only when the packet is too big for a wrapper. If the hon. Member will let me have particulars of any case where an envelope has been used unnecessarily I will look into it.
    Mr. Turton: Is the hon. Member aware that these large envelopes, one of which I hold in my hand, have been having a most demoralising effect on the would-be taxpayer in the last fortnight?

    British Shipping Film (Cost)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what expenditure has been incurred in sending a Mr. Swingler and his colleagues of the Green Park Studios to South America to take pictures of British shipping; whether the Shipbuilding Conference was consulted prior to the despatch of this party; and whether the consent of the foreign Government concerned to the filming of their harbours was obtained prior to the arrival of Mr. Swingler in each country included in their tour.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: About £4,300. The Shipbuilding Conference was consulted. The consent of the Governments concerned was sought, and obtained.
    Mr. Turton: Arising out of that reply, is the Minister aware that these films could have been taken perfectly well on the Clyde, or in any other port or harbour in Great Britain?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: No, Sir, the object of filming these ships where they were filmed was to show modern British-built ships operating in foreign ports.
    Mr. Turton: Is the Minister aware that both at Rio and at Valparaiso, certainly the latter, consent was not obtained until after the party had left?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: My information is to the contrary, and we have checked up on this. It is true that consent in two cases, namely, in Brazil and in the Argentine, was not obtained until the party actually arrived, but consent was obtained before the shots were made.

  CHURCHES (WINTER FUEL REQUIREMENTS)
  Mr. Sidney Shephardasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will now give permission for church authorities to obtain their next winter's fuel requirements.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Churches consuming more than 100 tons of coal per annum are supplied under programme on an annual basis and are expected to place a proportion of their supplies into stock during the summer. Smaller churches can now obtain licences from their Local Fuel Overseers enabling them to acquire a proportion of their winter requirements of coal and coke for stocking during the summer.

COALMINING (WORKING HOURS)
Brigadier Raynerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether the appeal which is being made to the textile industry to increase its hours of work in order to increase production is to be extended to the coalmining industry; and at what date and under what circumstances.
Mr. Gaitskell: The conditions and problems of the textile and coal mining industries are different. What is most urgently needed to increase production of coal is more regular attendance, the avoidance of unofficial disputes and higher output per manshift and I would refer the hon. Member to the statements which have been made by the Government, the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers on these matters.

MINERS WELFARE (ADMINISTRATION)
Sir J. Mellorasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, what is the scope of the Health and Welfare Branch of his Department; how many persons are employed, and where; and what is the relation between this branch and the corresponding branch of the National Coal Board.
Mr. Gaitskell: This Branch is a part of the Health, Safety and Training Division of my Department and has a total staff of 19 apart from 10 mines medical officers of whom the Chief and Deputy medical
2432
officers are at headquarters. In addition to inspectorial and advisory functions as regards first-aid and health requirements, undertaken by the medical officers, the duties cover broadly the formulation of policy and the fostering and development of measures for maintaining and improving the health and welfare of persons employed at coal mines and metalliferous mines and quarries, in conformity with my right hon. Friend's statutory responsibilities. Close liaison is maintained with the corresponding branch of the National Coal Board, whose interest is, of course, limited to the Board's duty towards persons in their own employment.
Sir J. Mellor: May I congratulate the Ministry in having at last obtained some information about the National Coal Board?

JUSTICES' CLERKS (SALARIES AND CONDITIONS)
Mr. Rees-Williamsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what steps he is taking to implement the recommendations in the Roche Report with reference to the salaries and conditions of service of assistant clerks to justices, and their superannuation and the compulsory retirement of clerks to justices at the age of 72 years.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): The recommendations of the Roche Report on these matters would require legislation and I regret that it is not possible at present to say when legislation on this subject is likely to be introduced.
Mr. Rees-Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the conditions of service of many of these older assistant clerks to justices are really scandalous and, although there is difficulty about registration, could he do something by circular to the justices?
Mr. Ede: I was one of the witnesses before the Roche Committee and gave evidence along lines closely parallel to their final Report; therefore, I am well acquainted with the difficulties. My views are known to the authorities concerned with the problem. I hope that my hon. Friend's question will direct attention to the desirability of standing joint committees and other authorities dealing with this matter.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday, 14th July—Committee stage of the Indian Independence Bill, Committee stage of the Navy, Army and Air Expenditure, 1945–46.
Tuesday, 15th July—Remaining stages of the Indian Independence Bill, which it is hoped will be obtained by 7 p.m.
Afterwards there will be an opportunity for the consideration of the Report from the Committee of Privileges relating to the case of the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown).
Wednesday, 16th July—Conclusion of the Report stage of the Finance Bill.
Thursday, 17th July—Supply (12th Allotted Day)—Committee. A Debate on the coal situation will take place.
Friday, 18th July—Third Reading of the Finance Bill.
During the week we hope that there will be an opportunity to consider the Lords' Amendments to the National Service Bill, and the Motion to approve the Purchase Tax (Exemptions) (Certain Woven Fabrics) (No. 1) Order, 1947.
Mr. Eden: Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us, for the convenience of the House, on which day he proposes to take the items to which he referred at the end —the Motion relating to Purchase Tax exemptions on woven fabrics, and the Lords Amendments to the National Service Bill? It would be convenient to know when they are coming on. With regard to Monday's Business, am I right in thinking that on the Committee stage of the Indian Independence Bill there will be an unlimited suspension? I do not think the House would wish to sit late.
Mr. Morrison: No, Sir. I do not think the House would wish to sit late, but we propose to suspend the Rule as a precautionary measure. We propose to take the other matters which the right hon. Gentleman raised on Thursday.
Mr. Eden: In view of the importance of the Report from the Committee of Privileges, which is to be discussed on Tuesday, would the right hon. Gentle-
2434
man consider extending for a period, so that we can have a full discussion?
Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that it would not be wise to have an unlimited extension, because a decision should be by a representative House, but if we leave it without extension there would be only two and a half hours or three hours, and perhaps that would be too tight. I would therefore propose to suspend the Rule for an hour.
Mr. Eden: No doubt the right hon. Gentleman has observed that we have been allotted only one Supply day next week, and there are still eight Supply days to be taken before 5th August? There are only nine days left, or 10 if we include Fridays. I hope the matter has not slipped the right hon. Gentleman's attention.
Mr. Morrison: No, Sir, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that unhappily it has not slipped my attention. I did intend to give more days to Supply next week, but the Indian Independence Bill comes up and has rather crowded it out. I know our obligations, and I am sure that with the arrangements between the Government and Opposition we shall solve it somehow, but it will be tight going.
Mr. Blackburn: May I ask the Lord President of the Council, more especially as he is the Minister responsible for science, to bear in mind the fact that this House has never yet discussed the maximum use of our scientific manpower and resources, and to bear that in mind in relation to the Business of the House because of the fact that, with the support of the Opposition in the main, this matter has not been raised?
Mr. Morrison: I thought my hon. Friend was going to lead up to a tactical and discreet appeal to the Opposition, but, if he attacks them in advance that will not be easy. One does that when one has exhausted all other means of persuasion. There is a substantial body of opinion in the House, and in the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, which no doubt would wish to discuss scientific subjects. It is a matter of Supply, however, and no doubt the acting Leader of the Opposition has heard

2435
what has been said and it is for them to consider that.
Mr. Eden: We have so many volunteers from the Government side that the number of subjects is embarrassing to us.
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: The Lord President has allotted only three and a half hours, or a little less, to the Report and Third Reading of what will perhaps be the most momentous Bill with which any of us have had to deal. Is that in keeping with the dignity of the House, and the magnitude of the subject? Surely, however crowded the Parliamentary programme may be, we ought to attempt to do justice to this immensely important Measure?
Mr. Morrison: This is a Bill on which, fortunately, we have no reason to anticipate great controversy. We appreciate that, quite properly, discussion may arise on Clauses of the Bill in Committee. As to whether there will be a Report stage depends on whether Amendments are made in Committee. It may be that none will be made. We have had to get this Bill in, as the House will appreciate, rather quickly at the end of the Session, and it is most difficult to fit it in at the end of the timetable. While I appreciate the point of the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) I am afraid we really cannot help it. We have done our best, as the acting Leader of the Opposition knows, to meet the convenience of the House, and I do not think we can do very much more. If there were no Report stage, or if it were limited, there would be more time for Third Reading.
Mr. Pickthorn: What the right hon. Gentleman has just said is relevant to what I wish to put forward. It seems to me that the Indian question on one side, and the Privilege question on the other, are two classic cases of what are House of Commons matters, in which all hon. Members of the House are and must be considered. I would not press the point, but the original Privilege Motion was in my name. It is indicative of the fact that this is not a matter as between two sides of the House, Government and Opposition, but between the whole of us as individuals. Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that Privilege, of all matters, is the most difficult to discuss
2436
except in extreme detail? Will he therefore not consider whether it is proper that a question of this magnitude should be put down as the second Order for Tuesday?
Mr. Morrison: I think it is right that it should be the second Order. I think it is right that there should be reasonable time for discussion, and, if we finish the India Bill at 7 p.m., and suspend the Rule until 11 o'clock, we would "be giving it proportionately about the right time. It is to be remembered that in the case of the Privilege Debate, which I entirely agree is a matter of importance, a detailed Report from the Committee of Privileges is in the hands of hon. Members. If we get the India Bill finished by about 7 p.m., as I hope we shall, it would not be unreasonable to finish at 11 p.m.
Mr. Nicholson: Reverting to the India Bill, even if it is not controversial, there will be four Front Bench speeches on this most momentous Measure. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, as a good House of Commons man, to treat this matter with the dignity it deserves. The House will not be worthy of itself if it allows this very important matter to go through in such a hurried manner.
Mr. Morrison: We have the whole of today available to the Second Reading. We then have the Committee stage, for which there is a great amount of time provided on Monday. I cannot imagine that on Third Reading there will be four speeches from the Front Benches. I think that if the hon. Member assumed that he would be wrong.
Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: In regard to the Business for Wednesday, in view of the fact that we did not reach the Report stage of the Finance Bill until shortly before 10 o'clock last night, and the congested condition of the Order Paper, is the Lord President satisfied that one day is sufficient for the remainder of the Report stage?
Mr. Hopkin Morris: May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker? With regard to the question of Privilege, and the Motion standing in the names of the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council:
["That this House agrees with the Report of the Committee of Privileges, and in particular declares that it is inconsistent with

2437
the dignity of the House, with the duty of a Member to his constituents, and with the maintenance of the privilege of freedom of speech, for any Member of this House to enter into any contractual agreement with an outside body, controlling or limiting the Member's complete independence and freedom of action in Parliament or stipulating that he shall act in any way as the representative of such outside body in regard to any matters to be transacted in Parliament; the duty of a Member being to his constituents and to the country as a whole, rather than to any particular section thereof."]
Will it be possible in the terms of that Motion to discuss the nature of Privilege itself which arises on one of the documents contained in the Report apart from the findings of the Committee?
Mr. Speaker: I was not quite certain what the hon. and learned Member asked me. Did he assert that the Motion on the Order Paper was one of Privilege?
Mr. Hopkin Morris: No, Sir. My point is that one of the most important documents in that Report is that provided by the Clerk of the House, in which he discusses the two possible meanings attaching to Privilege. In the form of the Motion, would it be possible to discuss the nature of Privilege as it appears in the original Motion or the Privilege of the House independently of the actual merits of the case, because the nature of the Privilege, as it appears to me, affects the decision with regard to the individual case?
Mr. Speaker: I am sorry to say that I have not yet seen the Motion on the Paper, so I do not really know what we can discuss. I shall be giving a Ruling on this matter later today, but I do not think it will help the hon. Member very much.

PRIVILEGE (MOTIONS)
Mr. Speaker: It might be convenient if I now made a statement about Privilege, which I was asked to make, and which I deferred. I apologise for the length of the statement.
On Thursday of last week, 3rd July, a Motion stood on the Order Paper in the name of the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn):
"That the report (17th June) of the Committee of Privileges be now considered"
2438
to which a contingent Motion was appended. The Motion raised the question whether the report of the Committee on a matter of privilege is entitled to priority over the programme of Business in the same way as a matter of Privilege arising for the first time. I did not feel in a position to rule on the Motion on its first appearance and have deferred giving my decision until this afternoon. In the current edition of Erskine May, on page 134, it is stated:
"A motion that a report of a committee on a matter of privilege be now taken into consideration…will be accorded the priority assigned to a matter of privilege unless there has been undue delay in bringing it forward."
The view in some earlier editions that such a Motion was not entitled to priority was based on a Ruling of one of my predecessors, Mr. Speaker Gully, in 1902. This Ruling cited certain precedents, but I am satisfied that it not only misinterpreted the precedents to which it appealed, but also showed a misunderstanding of the true relations between the House and a committee to which a matter of Privilege is referred. When the Committee of Privileges have been ordered to inquire into a complaint of breach of Privilege, in Erskine May's words,
"the House suspends its judgment until their Report has been presented."
The House, by referring a complaint to the Committee, does not forgo its right to adjudicate upon the case; the Committee, indeed, can only recommend, and have no power to pronounce judgment. It is, moreover, the inherent right of every Member of this House first, to bring matters of Privilege to its attention, and consequently to secure its decision upon them. There are, however, several difficult questions of a practical nature involved in treating reports of the Committee of Privileges as matters of Privilege. Such a report, together with its minutes of evidence and appendices may be a long and complicated document. It would not be reasonable to discuss such a report until Members generally have had time to acquaint themselves fully with its contents. On the other hand, it would not be right that such a report should be left unconsidered for a considerable time and then brought forward with the priority of a matter of Privilege.

2439
I think that in this matter the general practice of the House should be followed whereby the choice of a day for debate is settled by agreement among the various parties interested. In the event of failure to agree, any Member would have the right to put down a Motion for consideration of such a report at the time at which matters of Privilege are taken, namely, before entering on the programme of public Business. In such a case, however, if an attempt were made to debate a report which in the view of the great majority of the House did not call for discussion, it would be possible to avoid discussion by negativing the preliminary question for the consideration of the report—upon which the substance of the report is not open to debate. In cases where time for considering a report on a matter of Privilege was settled by a general agreement, I do not think it would be necessary to insist that the Motion must be taken immediately after Questions. Any time that was generally convenient should be admissible. I think this decision conforms with the traditions of the House in matters of Privilege, and that the practice which I have indicated would be fair both to individual Member? and the House as a whole.
Mr. Pickthorn: May I thank you, respectfully, for that Ruling, Mr. Speaker, and perhaps express the fearful joy with which some of us heard such plain correction of a Speaker, even one so dead as Mr. Speaker Gully. May I ask you whether the Debate, if there is to be a Debate, will be upon the Motion which was down in my name and that of my hon. Friends, or on the Motion which has since appeared upon the Order Paper?
Mr. Speaker: As I have already said, I am sorry, but I have not looked at the Motion on the Paper. I have not noticed it, but it is usual, if the Chairman of the Committee of Privileges puts down a Motion, to take the Motion standing in
2440
his name. Not having looked at the Motion, I cannot give a definite answer.
Mr. H. Morrison: I am sure that the whole House is obliged to you, Mr. Speaker, for the trouble you have taken in this matter. I would mention that it has not been uncommon, in connection with many of the reports of the Committee of Privileges, when there has been general agreement on the Committee and when, perhaps, they have not raised issues of great importance, for the House to have been pleased to let the matter rest there, and to agree that no further action be taken upon it. I presume this Ruling would not in any way prejudice that course being taken. There are a fair number of reports upon which no further action is taken unless it is the wish of the House or any Member that action should be taken.
Mr. Speaker: I think that the right hon. Gentleman is correct there. I think that is said in Erskine May. I have forgotten the exact words, but it is not usual to demand discussion where a Committee has been in complete agreement, and has reported that no breach of Privilege has been made. There is a remedy, as I have indicated in my Ruling, that if anybody puts down a Motion, the House can refuse to consider the matter, and that would end it at once.

NAVY, ARMY AND AIR EXPENDITURE, 1945–46
Committee to consider the surpluses and deficits upon Navy, Army and Air Grants for the year ended 31st March, 1946, and the application of surplus receipts realised under certain Votes for Navy, Army and Air Services towards making good deficits in receipts under other Votes in the respective Departments, upon Monday next.
Appropriation Accounts for the Navy. Army and Air Departments [presented upon 21st January], referred to the Committee [Mr. Whiteley.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  INDIAN INDEPENDENCE BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.51 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I have it in Command from His Majesty to acquaint the House that he places his Prerogative and interests, so far as concerns the matters dealt with by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament.
  I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  I am afraid I shall have to ask the indulgence of the House for taking up more of its time than is my custom, but the theme is a great one. There will also be passages which I am afraid I shall have to read, as verbal accuracy in dealing with some high matters is important. This Bill brings to an end one chapter in the long connection between Britain and India, but it opens another. British rule which has endured so long is now, at the instance of this country, coming to an end.
  There have been many instances in history when States at the point of the sword have been forced to surrender government over another people. It is very rare for a people that have long enjoyed power over another nation to -surrender it voluntarily. My mind recalls as the nearest parallel the action of the Liberal Government of Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman, in. 1906, when he gave back to the Dutch in South Africa the freedom to manage their own affairs which they had lost in the South African war. That was a great act of faith, an act of faith which bore fruit both in 1914 and 1939. I have often heard that great South African statesman, General Smuts, describing it as marking the end of imperialism. I regret, and I am sure the House will regret, that the statesman, who was then a young Under-Secretary, who had the honour of announcing the decision of the Government to extend responsible government to the Transvaal 41 years ago—the right hon. Gentleman the leader of the Opposition—is not, for reasons which we all know, able to be present at our Debate today.
  One would be tempted to speak at length on the. history of the British in
  2442
  India, but that would take up far too much time. I would only allude to a few points. The history of our connection in India begins with our trading ventures, the story of the East India Company. It goes on with the contest with the French for the mastery of the peninsula, the gradual extension of British power, partly by conquest but still more by voluntary cession of authority to the British by those who sought, under our aegis, the peace and security often denied to them during the anarchic period that followed the breakdown of the Mogul Empire.
  We can recall how, 90 years ago, the Government of the East India Company came to an end when Parliament assumed responsibility for Indian affairs. During those long years there has been a change in the spirit of British administration. In the earlier days we were concerned mainly with trade providing opportunities for making fortunes. In the eighteenth century British citizens returning from India had often made fortunes and were known as nabobs. But, as time went on, there was an increasing appreciation of the responsibility which fell to the government of the East India Company, a responsibility for the lives of many millions who sought justice and a quiet life. The British administrator in India became more and more deeply concerned with the well-being of the people of India, the well-being of that great congeries of people divided by race, by caste, language and religion in this sub-continent.
  To this change of spirit the House of Commons, in many famous Debates from the time of Burke onwards, made a most notable contribution. Perhaps it is not always realised how early that change took place. It was long before the transfer of sovereignty to the Crown. In the early days of the nineteenth century, great men, such as Sir Thomas Munro in Madras, set the standards which have since been followed by so many who have served India. Looking back today over the years, we may well be proud of the work which our fellow citizens have done in India. There have, of course, been mistakes, there have been failures, but we can assert that our rule in India will stand comparison with that of any other nation which has been charged with the ruling of a people so different from themselves.
  There has been a great succession of Viceroys who have made their particular

  2443
  contributions and sought to serve India faithfully. I think not least among them would be accounted the present Viceroy. There is a roll of names of eminent Governors of Provinces, high among which is that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson). There has been a multitude of administrators, soldiers, missionaries and others who have served India with great devotion and have loved the Indian people. In every part of India are the graves of those who died in her service. Not least among those who have served India are the men who in the difficult and exacting times of the last four decades, under the stress of two great wars with all their repercussions on Indian life, have worked in the changing conditions that have resulted from the rise of Indian nationalism and the development of self-government.
  May I recall here a thing that is not always remembered, that just as India owes her unity and freedom from external aggression to the British, so the Indian National Congress itself was founded and inspired by men of our own race, and further, that any judgment passed on our rule in India by Indians is passed on the basis, not of what obtained in the past in India, but on the principles which we have ourselves instilled into them. I am well aware that many of those who have been closely associated with India are anxious about the future of the millions for whom we are now relinquishing responsibility. I can understand their anxiety. They fear that the work to which they have devoted themselves for so many years may be brought to bought. They are anxious for those who would suffer most from a breakdown of administration—the poorest sections of the community.
  We must all be anxious, but I think everybody realises that the service of Britain to India must now take another form. The constitutional change, vital as it is, does not, of course, mean the disappearance of the civilian European community in India. Not a few of those of the British race who have been in the Services in India will, we confidently expect, be willing, at the invitation of the two new Governments, to continue in official service in India and Pakistan. The business community in India has still, I am confident, a role to play in main-
  2444
  taining, between the populations in India and this country, trade and commerce, to the great benefit of both. To all those men and women, who, although domiciled in the United Kingdom, are intending to remain in India after Pakistan, I would say: "You have a great task in front of you, namely, to cement the bonds of friendship between this country, India and Pakistan. You can accomplish as least as much in achieving this end as can the British Government."
  Many years ago, when we began the association of Indians in the responsibility of Government and set ourselves to train them in the methods of democracy, it was obvious that the time would come, sooner or later, when Indians would seek to secure the entire management of their own affairs. This was clear many years ago to some of our wisest administrators, and I quote from a letter of Mountstuart Elphinstone as long ago as 1854:
  "The moral is that we must not dream of perpetual possession, but must apply ourselves to bring the natives into a state that will admit of their governing themselves in a manner that may be beneficial to our interests as well as their own, and that of the rest of the world; and to take the glory of the achievement and the sense of having done our duty for the chief reward of our exertions."
  It has been the settled policy of all parties in this country for many years that Indians, in course of time, should manage their own affairs. The question has always been how and when? It would, I think, be unprofitable today to go back into the past and to question whether, if some particular action had been taken by a British Government earlier, or if a different line of conduct had been taken by the Indian political leaders on certain occasions, a more satisfactory solution might have been found than that which I am commending to the House today.
  There are hon. Members of this House, such as the noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) and the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed), whose connection with the Indian problem goes back far beyond mine. Some 20 years ago, I was first brought into contact with it by being placed on the Simon Commission, and I think they would agree with me that the major difficulty that has faced all of us in considering the best way of achieving

  2445
  Indian self-government has been the absence of mutual trust and toleration between the communities. It has sometimes been said by our enemies that this was a difficulty created by ourselves in order to perpetuate our own rule. Nothing could be more untrue. This same difficulty, which faced Mr. Edwin Montagu and the Simon Commission, faced the President of the Board of Trade in his Mission and my three Cabinet colleagues in theirs, and it was still the outstanding difficulty of the present Viceroy when he took office. Everyone who has touched the Indian problem has been brought up against this stumbling-block. They have all wanted to maintain the unity of India, to give India complete self-government and to preserve the rights of minorities. Every one of them has hoped that a solution might be found without resorting to partition. I know that many Indians of all communities passionately desire this, but it has not been found to be practicable.
  We. and the Indian statesmen have had to accept the only alternative— partition. For myself, I earnestly hope that this severance may not endure, and that the two new Dominions which we now propose to set up may, in course of time, come together again to form one great member State of the British Commonwealth of Nations. But this is entirely a matter for the Indians themselves. The demand for self-government has been insistently pressed for many years by the leaders of political thought in India, and has been stimulated by the external situation, and particularly by those great waves of nationalist feeling that accompanied both the great wars. This demand is not peculiar to India, but has spread throughout Asia. It is the natural result of contact by dwellers in other continents with European political thought. The chief question has been as to how this desire could be gratified. Delay in granting it has always led to more and more extreme demands.
  There has been a tendency to consider that nothing short of complete and absolute severance would satisfy this urge. there is a desire by some to cut every tie which connects them with their former rulers. On the other hand, in the age in which we live, there are very strong reasons which militate against the complete isolation which some demand. Many
  2446
  countries that long enjoyed their freedom and independence have lost it either permanently or temporarily, and some form of association with others for security and greater prosperity is the desire of many peoples. The League of Nations and the United Nations organisation express this desire, but the one great practical example of how complete freedom and independence can be combined with inclusion in a greater whole is the British Commonwealth of Nations.
  The British Commonwealth of Nations is so unique that its nature is still not fully comprehended, and even many of our American friends do not understand that the Dominions are as free as Great Britain. They do not appreciate that membership of the British Commonwealth, in the words of the Prime Minister of New Zealand is, "independence with something added, not independence with something taken away." In this Bill, we set up two independent Dominions, free and equal, of no less status than the United Kingdom or the Dominion of Canada, completely free in all respects from any control by this country, but united by a common allegiance to the Sovereign and by a community of ideas, receiving from their membership of the Commonwealth great advantages, but in no way suffering any restriction. The Title of this Bill expresses this fact that the independence which has been the goal for so long of many Indians can be, and I believe will be realised within the British Commonwealth of Nations. It is my hope that these two new Dominions may continue in this great association, giving and receiving benefits.
  I saw with great regret in one paper, and I think in one paper only, that the action which we are now taking was described as abdication. It is not the abdication, but the fulfilment of Britain's mission in India. It is the culminating point in a long course of events. The Morley-Minto proposals, the Montagu-Chelmsford proposals, the Simon Commission Report, the Round Table Conferences, the Act of 1935, the Declaration at the time of the Cripps Mission, the visit of my right hon. Friends to India last year, are all steps in the road that led up eventually to the proposals that I announced to the House on 3rd June last. This Bill is designed to implement those proposals, which met, I think, with general acceptance in this House and in the country.

  2447
  I will now turn to the provisions of the Bill itself. The House is, I recognise, being asked to pass this Bill in a very short time. I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) in the point he made. I agree that the time given is not commensurate with its great importance. But we are really constrained by the urgency of the matter. The House will realise that, once the decision had been come to by the Indians themselves that a separation of India into two Dominions was necessary, the position of the existing Government became one of ever-increasing difficulty. The eyes of all were fixed on the future. The day-to-day work of Government became subordinate to the consideration of that most complicated and difficult business of effecting the separation. In these conditions, the continuance for any long period of the Central Government in India, of a Government containing the leaders of two parties that wished to separate, was impossible. The position of the Governor-General became extremely difficult. As a consequence, the House will realise that it has been a rather arduous and exacting task to prepare this Bill in the time available. No doubt, if time allowed, it could be improved. Its general lines have, necessarily, had to be discussed by the Governor-General with the Indian leaders, and while I would not for a moment suggest that every detail has the approval of both the Congress and the Muslim leaders—that would be far too much to expect—I do believe that, in its present form, it represents the greatest measure of agreement possible, and I believe, too, that it will effect what is required. Delay, I am absolutely certain, would jeopardise success.
  It would be very easy to show points where a deadlock might arise, because one can do that with almost every constitutional proposal, and much that is contained in it will have to be worked out by agreement, and much will depend on the personal influence of those concerned, and especially of the Governors-General themselves. I hope, therefore, that the House will excuse, on the ground of urgency, the short time given for its discussion of the Bill. It is simply due to the pressure of events, and not from any disrespect to this House, or any lack of appreciation of the magnitude of this Measure.
  2448
  May I turn to the Clauses? In Clause I, provision is made for the setting up, from 15th August next, of two Dominions to be known as India and Pakistan. It is, of course, quite easy to suggest alternative names. One could do that at any christening, but, in fact, these are the names by which the spokesmen of the Indian parties wish the Dominions to be called, and as, presumably, it will be in the power of the Dominions, once set up, to change their names, it does not seem worth while to endeavour to make any alterations in this Bill, or to spend much time on the point.
  Clauses 2, 3 and 4 give effect to the methods which I described to the House last month, whereby the Indian people, through their own representatives, were given the opportunity of deciding on the division of territory. A decision has already been come to that Bengal and the Punjab should be divided, and in the North-West Frontier province and in Sylhet voting is taking place to decide the future of those areas. We must expect, therefore, that in a few days the broad division will have been made. But it will have been noted that, in accordance with what I indicated to the House, the detailed delimitation of boundaries will be done by two Commissions. These Commissions will be starting work forthwith. Hindus, Muslims, and, in the case of the Punjab, Sikhs, will be members. I am glad to say that Sir Cyril Radliffe, K.C., has accepted the request made to him by all parties in the Government of India to be chairman of both Commissions.
  Clause 5 of the Bill provides for the appointment by the King of a Governor-General for each of the new Dominions, with the proviso, however, that until provision is made to the contrary by either of the new Dominions, the same person may be Governor-General of both. This is a pretty clear Clause. Normally, it would be both unnecessary and inexpedient for a Minister here to say anything more about it. The House is, of course, aware that the appointment of a Governor-General in the Dominions is made by the King on the advice of his Ministers in the Dominion concerned, and it would be wholly improper for His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom to be in any way concerned with the matter. But, today, it is necessary for me to make some further com-

  2449
  ments, because the position in relation to the appointment of Governors-General of the new Dominions is exceptional.
  In the first place, there is the matter of procedure. It is not possible to follow the normal procedure in this case. Under the Bill, Governors-General will have to be appointed as from 15th August. Although the two countries become Dominions as from that date, there can be no Ministers formally to advise the Crown until a Governor-General has been appointed and Ministers have taken office. In these circumstances, it was agreed with the Indian leaders, and the King's approval was obtained, that the Viceroy should consult the recognised leaders of Congress and the Muslim League as to whom they would wish to recommend for appointment as Governors-General. Then their advice would be formally tendered to the King by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. This procedure would, of course, only apply in the present case. I wish to emphasise the fact that, although the appointments would be made on the formal advice of Ministers here, they were, in fact, the recommendations of the Indian leaders themselves.
  So much for the exceptional procedure in the present instance. But the Viceroy has represented that it would be in the interest of all if some statement could be made at an early date about the persons who are to be recommended for these posts. This, again, is a most unusual procedure. I should inform the House that I have received the King's specific authority for referring to the recommendations before him and to which assent cannot, of course, be given until the Bill has become law. It had been intimated to us that it would be most convenient to all concerned to have one Governor General for both of these Dominions in the initial stages, and, for some time, we proceeded on this assumption. It has recently become clear, however, that the Muslim League was in favour of a separate Governor-General to be appointed for Pakistan.
  It is obviously very desirable that this matter should be settled at the earliest possible opportunity in order that the position may be understood in India, and so that the new Governors-General can prepare themselves to take over on 15th August. Both Congress and the Muslim
  2450
  League, who have been recognised in the Bill as the successor authorities, have made recommendations which have been conveyed by His Majesty's Government to His Majesty. While formal announcement must await the passing of the Bill, His Majesty has intimated that he is prepared to accept these recommendations as soon as the Bill is passed. The recommendations are in favour of the present Viceroy as Governor-General of India, and of Mr. Jinnah as Governor-General of Pakistan.
  I wish to add that the recommendation of Lord Mountbatten is also welcomed by the Muslim League. I am also informed that the Muslim League have agreed that he should be chairman of the Joint Defence Council which will be responsible for central administration of the Armed Forces until such time as India and Pakistan are themselves in a position to administer them. I am quite sure the House will agree with me that this recommendation shows that Lord Mountbatten has carried out his duties in India with complete impartiality, and has won the confidence of all the people of India. He has expressed his willingness, in the special circumstances, to serve in this capacity, at all events during the transition period.
  I wish here and now to pay my tribute to Lord Mountbatten. Great benefits to the future of the whole continent of India would have followed from his appointment as Governor-General of both the new Dominions. However, this is not to be. As constitutional Governor-General he will, of course, act on the advice of his Ministers in all matters. Nevertheless, he has built up a remarkable position for himself with both parties in India, and his wise counsel and his great devotion to the public cause without any thought of his own personal position will, undoubtedly, prove a most beneficial factor in the future development of the whole continent of India.
  Turning to Clause 6, this deals with the powers of the legislatures of the new Dominions. The aim of the Clause is to put the new Dominions in the same position as that in existing Dominions; that is to say, that they should not be fettered by any of those limitations which are appropriate to Colonial legislatures. The position of Dominion legislatures is set out in Sections 2 to 6 of the Statute of Westminster. This Clause, though

  2451
  different in actual form from those Sections—because, of course, the Statute of Westminster dealt with Parliaments actually in being, and those Parliaments were subject, theoretically, at the time to certain restrictions—has, in substance, I am advised, precisely the same effect.
  Clause 7 (2) deals with the Indian States. The House will remember that the Cabinet Mission, in their memorandum of 12th May, 1946, informed the States that His Majesty's Government could not, and will not in any circumstances, transfer paramountcy to an Indian Government. With the transfer of power to two Indian Dominions, it is necessary to terminate the paramountcy and suzerainty of the Crown over the Indian States, and, with them, the political engagements concluded under paramountcy and the mutual rights and obligations of the Crown and the States which derive there from. The reason for this is that they all depended for their implementation on our part, on the continuance of the responsibility of Great Britain for the Government of India; and with the transfer of power to two Dominion Governments it would be impossible for the British Government to carry out these obligations. An important element of those rights and obligations concerns the protection of the States against external aggression or internal subversive movement, and the methods whereby the paramount Power has in the past influenced the policy of the States so as to enable it and them to fulfil such undertakings. A feature running through all our relations with the States has been that the Crown has conducted their foreign relations. They have received no international recognition independent of India as a whole.
  With the ending of the treaties and agreements, the States regain their in dependence. But they are part of geographical India, and their rulers and peoples are imbued with a patriotism no less great than that of their fellow Indians in British India. It would, I think, be unfortunate if, owing to the formal severance of their paramountcy relations with the Crown, they were to become islands cut off from the rest of India. The termination of their existing relationship with the Crown need have no such consequence. In fact,
  2452
  already a large number of the States have declared their willingness to enter into relationships with the new Dominions, and some have been represented in the Constituent Assembly of India. It is the hope of His Majesty's Government that all States will, in due course, find their appropriate place within one or other of the new Dominions within the British Commonwealth, but until the constitutions of the Dominions have been framed in such a way as to include the States as willing partners, there must necessarily be a less organic form of relationship between them, and there must be a period before a comprehensive system can be worked out.
  But, quite apart from the political relationship between the States and British India, there have grown up through the years financial and economic relations— relations on such matters as posts and telegraphs, Customs and communications— which it would be disastrous to terminate immediately. The proviso in Clause 7 (1) is designed to secure the continuance of the existing arrangements in this field until there has been time for detailed negotiation between the parties. After the transfer of power, more detailed and binding arrangements will need to be concluded between the Dominions and the States Governments, and it may well be that these arrangements will, in their turn, be superseded by a more organic co-operation between the States and the Dominions. But these later arrangements will, of course, take time to work out, and the transition of the States from the lapse of paramountcy into a free association with the new Dominions is a process which will require proper discussion and deliberation.
  We welcome the active steps being taken to set up States Departments of the new Dominions to handle negotiations with the States Governments. We trust that this will facilitate the negotiation of the arrangements to which 'I have referred. If I were asked what would be the attitude of His Majesty's Government to any State which has decided to cut adrift from its neighbours and assert its independence, I would say to the ruler of that State, "Take your time and think again. I hope that no irrevocable decision to stay out will be taken prematurely."

  2453
  Clause 7 (1) (c) is related to Paragraph 17 of the Statement of 3rd June, which said:
  "Agreements with tribes of the North-West Frontier of India will have to be negotiated by the appropriate successor authority."
  The effect of the Clause will be to leave it open to the Constituent Assemblies of the new Dominions to initiate negotiations for fresh agreements with the Jirgas, or tribal assemblies, who are the treaty-making bodies empowered to enter into agreements on behalf of the tribes. As the House is aware, these tribal areas are not part of British India. They are not administered by officers of the Government of India. Relations with them are governed by a series of treaties and agreements which confer jurisdiction in certain matters on the Crown. In practice, this jurisdiction is exercised by the local political authorities. The termination of these agreements will place the tribes and the appropriate successor Government in a position freely to negotiate fresh agreements.
  Clause 7 (2) deals with the omission from the Royal Style and Titles of the words"Indiae Imperator"and the words "Emperor of India." I should explain to the House that a change in the Royal Style and Titles is not a matter for the United Kingdom alone. As the Preamble to the Statute of Westminster makes clear, it concerns the other members of the British Commonwealth as well. But for practical reasons it has not been possible for such Parliamentary action as may be necessary to be taken in those other countries simultaneously with legislation here. The House will, however, be glad to learn that, as a result of consultation with the Prime Ministers concerned, I am authorised to state that the other Commonwealth Governments agree to the proposed change in the Royal Style and Titles, and are prepared to take such steps as they consider necessary to obtain the consent of their Parliaments. It may be. therefore, that some time will elapse before this subsection can become operative.
  I think, perhaps, it will be convenient if I state here what is the position with regard to the India Office. With the termination of all British control over the Indian sub-continent, the historic office of Secretary of State for India will come to an end. The conduct of relations with India will fall within the sphere of the
  2454
  Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations. For a transitional period there will, no doubt, be, in relation to India and Pakistan, a considerable volume of work, much of it of a winding-up character, which would not ordinarily fall within the range of the functions of the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs. This will add considerably to his responsibilities, and in order to assist in this work, I am proposing to appoint a Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations. This will be one of the posts allowed under Section 2 of the Re-election of Ministers Act, 1919, as amended by the House of Commons Disqualification (Declaration of Law) Act, 1935, commonly called that of "Minister without Portfolio." There will, consequently, be no need for legislation, but I shall be submitting a recommendation to His Majesty the King for filling this post in due course.
  In Clause 8 temporary provision is made for the exercise of powers of legislation by the Constituent Assemblies. The House will recall that the original plan of the Cabinet Mission was for the setting up of a constituent assembly for the purpose of framing a Constitution for all India, which would then be brought before Parliament as expressing the desires of the people of India. However, that Cabinet plan was not carried out in full, but the Constituent Assembly, which the Muslim League decided not to attend, has been at work for some time upon the framing of a constitution, and it is proposed that a Constituent Assembly for Pakistan should be formed as soon as the procedure indicated in Clauses 2 to 4 has been carried out.
  The decision to set up two Dominions instead of waiting for the formulation by a Constituent Assembly of a' new Constitution has, of course, altered the whole situation. It has become necessary to provide for Legislatures in India and Pakistan as from 15th August; and these Legislatures, besides having general legislative powers, must have also constituent powers—that is to say, they must be legislative bodies set up for the dual purpose of performing the ordinary functions of a Parliament and of making Constitutions. The problem to be solved was to get a Parliament at work in the two Dominions where there were no Constitutions actually in being, while, at the same time, providing for the framing

  2455
  of the new Constitution. Well, a solution has been found by adapting the India Act, 1935, with necessary adaptations as the basic Constitution for the time being for both the new Dominions, while giving the Constituent Assemblies the status of Parliaments.
  Of course, the House is well aware that the Act of 1935 provided for a Central Legislature and Provincial Legislatures and for the division of powers between them. It is an immensely long and detailed Act, which, as some of us remember, took months of work in the framing, and in the preliminary consultations, and in passing through this House. It was designed for a united India. It now has to be adapted for the service of two Dominions. It contained many limitations on the powers of the Legislature, and gave, among other things, extensive powers to the Governor-General and to the Provincial Governors to act in their own discretion. The proviso in Clause 8 in effect sweeps away all these special powers and is intended to place the Governor-General and the Provincial Governors in the position of Dominion Governors-General—that is to say, they act only on the advice of their Ministers.
  Clause 3 protects the existing position as between the Centre and the Provinces until other provision is made by a law passed by the Legislature. It will be realised that the intention is that when the new Dominions begin to function there should be in existence a body of law which can be amended by the Constituent Assemblies and subsequently by any legislatures that may be formed to take their place.
  I said that the Act of 1935 will be, in the first instance, until other action is taken, the basis of the new Constitution, with necessary adaptations. Clause 9 sets out the machinery of adaptation. This is to be done by order of the Governor-General. If hon. Members will refer to Clause 19, the definition Clause, they will see that, up to the appointed day, 15th August, the powers are exercisable by the Governor-General within the meaning of the Act of 1935, that is to say, by Lord Mountbatten, but after that date, where the Order or Act affects only one Dominion, by the Governor-General of that Dominion; where it concerns both Dominions, by the two
  2456
  Governors-General acting jointly. I must admit that the powers given here are very wide. That is inevitable in the nature of the case. The Governor-General has to bring the Act into operation. He has to effect a division between the two Dominions, dividing the powers, rights, assets, property, liabilities, et cetera.
  I should like to mention here that the Indian leaders have agreed in principle in the setting up of an arbitral tribunal to which should be referred any questions regarding the division of assets and liabilities on which the two Governments cannot reach agreement. The question of the composition of that tribunal is still under discussion. But, besides these duties, the Governor-General has to make the adaptations required in the Government of India Act, 1935, in order to make it the new constitution for the time being. He has in particular the task of arranging during the transition period for the carrying out of services which are vital to the interests of both the new Dominions. The House will realise how great is the problem of dealing with such matters as railway and other communications, the reserve bank, the monetary and fiscal systems, and, of course, defence— to mention only the most obvious examples of those services which have hitherto been operated in the interests of the whole of India. Clearly, it must take time before the separate systems can be set up, and for definite agreements to be made between the two Dominions.
  Provision must be made by some method—it may be by joint delegations from the two Dominions—for carrying out all these various activities during the transition period; and it is for this reason that such wide powers are given to the Governor-General. It would, of course, have simplified matters if the same person had held the position of Governor-General in both Dominions; but it has been decided otherwise. It is clear it can only be worked effectively by agreement between the two Governors-General. These powers of the Governors-General will come to an end on 31st March next, unless terminated earlier by the Dominion Legislatures. There is a similar though rather smaller problem involved in the division of the Punjab, Bengal, and possibly Assam. Accordingly, these powers are also given to the Governors of those Provinces, but only up to 15th August.

  2457
  I call attention to Subsection (3). That gives retrospective effect as from 3rd June in order to cover actions by the Governor-General and the Governors taken in anticipation of legislation. The House will realise that much has to be done in preparation which is not strictly within the 1935 Act.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: Is it clear that, in view of the announcement made about the two Governors-General, no Amendment will be necessary to the Bill, in view of the interpretation Clause at the end, which provides for that?
  The Prime Minister: I think no Amendment is needed. I think the interpretation Clause makes it quite clear.
  Mr. Molson: I should like to ask one question for the purpose of elucidation. When the Governor-General makes an order under Clause 9, presumably he does not act on the advice of his Ministers, but acts, I take it, in the exercise of his individual judgment. If the Prime Minister looks at Subsection (2), where similar powers are given to the Governors of Provinces, it is expressly stated that they are to exercise their individual judgment. I assume, therefore, that the Governor-General also will exercise independent judgment, and will not act on the advice of his Ministers.
  The Prime Minister: No, the hon. Member is not correct. These powers are given to the Provincial Governors only up to 15th August, and, therefore, they act on their own individual judgment; but thereafter the Governors-General will be acting on the advice of their Ministers.
  Clause 10 (1) deals with the position of the Services. The House will recall that in the White Paper published last April His Majesty's Government made plain their position with regard to the Services, and all pledges then given by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom stand. It was then stated that the Government of India accepted liability for pension earned by service under the Secretary of State, whether by civilians or by members of the Defence Services. Clause 10, which has been inserted at the express request of the leaders of the Indian parties, provides for maintenance of the existing conditions of service, as well as of compensatory rights, in the case of those members of the Secretary of
  2458
  State's Services who continue to serve (he Governments of the new Dominions.
  As regards persons who have been in Government service, whether Central or Provincial, but whose service has not been specifically under the Secretary of State, I am happy to be able to announce now that the leaders of the Indian parties have guaranteed the existing terms and conditions of service to all their employees, including Europeans. This guarantee covers pensionary and provident fund liabilities. and excludes any question of discrimination between Indian and non-Indian. But it cannot, of course, be regarded as an abandonment of the general right of any Government to revise the salaries of their servants from time to time. It is, however, recognised that, among the liabilities to which I have referred above, there is one category for which His Majesty's Government have a special responsibility, namely, towards Europeans who served in the Secretary of State's and analogous Services. We intend to invite the new authorities to negotiate, in due course, an agreement whereby a capital sum in sterling will be set aside to cover this liability. Meanwhile, those concerned have the assurance of His Majesty's Government that they will receive the pensions to which they are entitled.
  The next three Clauses are rather technical. They deal with the Indian Armed Forces, the British forces in India, and the Naval Forces. I think it would be convenient for any special points in that regard to be brought up perhaps during the Committee stage. There are, however, some important matters which I should like to explain. First, with regard to the partition of the Armed Forces. For the purpose of dealing with the question of partition there has been, since 7th June, a Partition Committee of the Interim Government consisting of two representatives of each of the two parties, with the Viceroy as chairman; and a number of expert committees have been set up to work under this Partition Committee.
  This Committee's function was to examine the steps to be taken to set up machinery for carrying out the partition. It was really a fact-finding body, with the duty of making proposals and not of reaching final decisions. It was also decided that as soon as any one Province had declared in favour of joining a new

  2459
  and separate Constituent Assembly the Partition Committee should be replaced by a Partition Council. That Council should consist of two of the top-rank leaders of Congress and two of the Muslim League, with the Viceroy as chairman. This Council was set up on 27th June, and it was announced on 1st July that the Partition Council had reached agreement on the general principles to govern the reconstruction of the Armed Forces. The House will have seen that announcement, and a very important agreement was arrived at.
  Until the division of the Forces is completed, and the two Dominion Governments are in a position to administer them, all existing Armed Forces in India will remain under the administrative control of the present Commander-in-Chief, who will, in turn, be under the Joint Defence Council, consisting of the Governor-General or Governors-General, the two Defence Ministers, and the Commander-in-Chief himself. There was a question about the two Governors-General; the original contemplation being, one person holding both positions. It has been agreed that Lord Mountbatten should be chairman of this Council. The Commander-in-Chief will have no responsibility for law and order, no operational control of any units, except during transit from one Dominion to another, nor any power to move troops within the borders of either Dominion. With regard to the British Forces in India at the transfer of power on 15th August, the British Armed Forces will immediately start to be withdrawn from India. This withdrawal will be carried out as rapidly as shipping permits, and is expected to be completed by about the end of this year.
  I think perhaps I can deal shortly with the remaining points of this Section. Clause 12 (1) declares that the British Army, the British Air Force and the Royal Navy when in Indian waters are under the direction and control of the United Kingdom Government and Service authorities. This, of course, is consistent with the Dominion status of India and Pakistan. Clause 12 (3) provides for the civil and military authorities continuing to offer the same facilities as heretofore for the British Army, pending their evacuation, and requires the Governor-
  2460
  General, by his orders, to facilitate their evacuation. I should say that the phrase "and in the other territories" refers to the tribal areas and the States, and is intended to ensure that the Indian civil and military authorities extend to the British Forces whatever facilities they may secure for their own Forces in such territories.
  I will here refer to the Third Schedule, which sets out the modifications of the Army Act which have to be made for the British Army so long as it remains in India. The general principle of the modifications is to remove all powers of interference by the Governor-General and other civilian authorities in India with the internal affairs of the British Army in India, while preserving their powers and duties so far as they do not amount to interference of this kind. Clause 14 again is technical. It is essentially a transitional Clause dealing with the position of the Secretary of State and the Auditor of Indian Home Accounts. I will only note that under Subsection (3) the advisers of the Secretary of State provided for under the 1935 Act will now cease to function. Clause 15 is, I think, self-explanatory. Clause 16 confirms the separation of Aden from India, which was effected by Section 288 of the Government of India Act, 1935. I do not think the position with regard to divorce or as to existing laws requires any detailed explanation.
  Before I close, I should like to deal with certain other matters. First, in regard to the relations between this country and the new Dominions, as the House is aware; it has been our intention that there should be negotiated and concluded, simultaneously with the transfer of power, treaties or agreements covering matters arising out of the transfer of power in India. Owing to the course of events in India, it has not been possible for such agreements to be negotiated. It is only since the statement of His Majesty's Government of 3rd June that it has become clear that the transfer of power will be to two separate States. The areas to be included in those States are not yet completely delimited, and their Governments have not yet been constituted. It has, therefore, not been possible to negotiate agreements with the succesor authorities, though it is our intention to begin such negotiations when the new Indian Governments are in the saddle. Apart from

  2461
  matters arising out of the transfer of power, there are other important matters on which we hope to have negotiations with the Indian and Pakistan Governments. We desire to establish, by free negotiation, dose, cordial and effective arrangements with both new Dominions in all fields affecting our common interests, and particularly in regard to defence matters and in the economic field.
  I have endeavoured to explain to the House the general purposes and provisions of this Measure. There will, no doubt, be many points of detail which hon. Members will raise in the course of this Debate and on Committee stage. It will be the object of my right hon. Friends and myself to give the House the fullest information and explanation in our power, but there will inevitably be some matters on which it will not be possible to answer with precision, for this Bill is unlike other Bills dealing with India. It does not lay down, as in the 1935 Act, a new Constitution for India, providing for every detail. It is far more in the nature of an enabling Bill—a Bill to enable the representatives of India and Pakistan to frame their own Constitutions, and to provide for the exceedingly difficult period of transition. Ever since the Cripps' Mission, it has been the desire of successive Governments that the future constitution of India should be framed by Indians and not by the British. Had the Cripps offer been accepted, a Constituent Assembly might have come into being immediately after the end of the war. What has had to be done hurriedly, might have been done at greater leisure. We might have been spared some anxious years. But it is no good crying over lost opportunities.
  The Measure now before the House offers, I believe, the greatest measure of agreement possible of attainment, and it is, I think, the best service we can do for our Indian fellow-subjects to pass it into law. We must all regret the division of India, but despite this grave drawback, we should, I think, welcome this new chapter in the history of the Commonwealth and Empire. That Indian Dominions are to be set up and this House is relinquishing its control and responsibility for the Government of India is not, as a few would have us believe, a sign of weakness. It is, on the contrary, a sign of the strength and
  2462
  vitality of the British Commonwealth. There have been great Empires in the past in which many nations have been brought together in one polity, but they perished because their rigidity of structure did not allow of growth, and because the peoples which composed it were subjected to the will of one dominant ruler or one dominant race.
  The British Commonwealth of Nations survives today, and has survived through the strain of two great wars, precisely because it is not static, but is constantly developing, and because it has throughout the years steadily changed from an Empire, in which the power of control rested with Britain, to a partnership of free peoples inspired by common ideals and united in a common interest. We are now proposing to welcome two new Dominions into that full partnership. We shall, I am sure, all wish that they will long remain with us, and that the friendship which united so many British and Indians, despite all the strains of recent years, may continue and extend ever more widely. My hope is that we may forget past differences and remember only how often and in how many fields of human endeavour Britons and Indians have worked together in harmony.
  4.56 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: In the absence from this Debate today, for reasons which are universally regretted, of my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), to whom the Prime Minister has paid a most graceful tribute, it has fallen to my lot to voice the views of the Opposition on this memorable occasion. We all deplore that at such a time the House should be deprived of the wise guidance and vast experience of the Leader of the Opposition, based upon so long and devoted a service to the Crown, and fortified by his supreme gifts of exposition and eloquence. In these circumstances, I can only ask the indulgence of my fellow Members. The Second Reading of this Bill in the Imperial Parliament in the year of grace, 1947, is an important and, indeed, a historic moment. There is no Member of the House, whatever may be his views or party affiliations, who can fail to be moved by the last stage in this unique story. If I may be allowed to say so without impertinence, I should like to congratulate the Prime Minister on the lucidity.

  2463
  moderation and dignity with which he has performed his tormidable task.
  For over 300 years, as the Prime Minister reminded the House, there has been a close association between Great Britain and India. The British connection with India falls into four major divisions. From the middle of the seventeenth century to the middle of the eighteenth century, the aims of the British were purely those of traders. They had no aspirations to military power or territorial aggrandisement, but the gradual decay of the Mogul Empire from within, and the anarchy which followed, forced the British to take up arms in their own defence, and by a series of strange and dramatic episodes, they found themselves at last, almost unwittingly, in the seat of Empire. The next period was that of strategic conflict, arising from European rivalries. The political history of the British in India begins in the eighteenth Century with the French wars in the Carnatic. Between 1745 and 1748 the French almost drove the British out of India. After the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle only Madras was left to us. In the next 12 years, by the genius of Clive, the French were expelled, and British authority firmly and finally established. From Clive's second governorship the third phase in this long story begins.
  The theme of trade and conquest are now succeeded by the new dominant motives of administration and expansion. Administrative reforms in the hands of Hastings, Bentinck, Metcalfe and many others began to build up those processes by which the hearts' of the conquered population were gradually won over to venerate, as well as obey, their alien rulers. The policy of expansion was, at the same time, pressed too ruthlessly. I think it is now clear that the Mutiny of 1857 was largely the result of Lord Dalhousie's policy. At any rate, after a life of nearly two and a half centuries, the fate of the Company was sealed. In 1858 this House passed an Act for the better government of India. For the next 50 years the Indian scene is dominated by the skill and devotion of its administrators, following the broad purposes of 19th century idealism at its best. In that period immense progress was made in every field.
  During those years was built up that devoted body of soldiers and civilians
  2464
  who have served India so well, and who are still India's loyal friends. Never, in the long course of history, has an alien nation given so much of its best Service in India became a family tradition and affection for India a legacy from father to son. Nor should we think only of those who rose to great distinction. To humble members of these services, administrative and technical, to the collector, the commissioner, the health officer, the famine officer, the police, the judiciary, to all these, both British and Indian people owe an immeasurable debt. By the achievement of this period of our rule in India, the British stand justified. Much will be left in the material sense— railways, dams, irrigation schemes, health services and the like—but perhaps the greatest contribution which the British genius has made has been the sense of equal justice, incorruptible and unchangeable, carried out equally for Hindu and for Muslim, for the poor as for the rich, the humble as for the exalted. This has set a standard of equity unrivalled in the history of the world.
  Then, as the Prime Minister reminded us, at the turn of the century, and especially dating from the Morley-Minto reforms, comes the last of these great periods, the preparation for self-government. To this task, British Government and British people conscientiously set their hand. We may say that it is unique in the history of the world that a ruling nation should voluntarily and deliberately prepare to surrender its authority on so large a scale. This policy, as the Prime Minister said, has been agreed by all parties. The story of two generations has been the steady determination on the part of various Governments at home and of the Government of India, to prepare the way for Indian self-government.
  As early as the '90's the first councils were formed with Indian membership; the long history of various reforms has been the evolution upon this steady purpose. It has been followed, regardless of misunderstanding and obloquy, both in India and, less justifiably, at home and abroad; but in spite of all recriminations, it has been steadfastly pursued by the British people as a whole. Perhaps some of those who have so long maligned the British purpose at home and abroad may stand ashamed today. On this purpose there

  2465
  has never been any division among British parties. The methods, not the objective, have been the matter of dispute.
  Finally, at the time of the so-called Cripps Mission in 1942, the Conservative and Liberal, as well as the Socialist, Members of the Churchill Government, were in agreement with the broad proposition to offer self-government to India. We asked, however, two essential conditions. First, that there should be agreement between the two major parties in India, Hindu and Muslim. Second, that Dominion status, as the phrase goes or, as I am content to say, Commonwealth membership, should be a reality and not a mere legal fiction. It should not be used to change from one day to the next from membership of the Commonwealth to complete severance of the link; but a fair and reasonable trial should be made on both sides, so that the advantages and the disadvantages to India of membership of the Commonwealth might be properly tested and in India, races, religions and parties be able to consider coolly where their interest and affections lay.
  During the war, no agreement could be reached. After the war, the Cabinet Mission, in spite of good will, failed to reach an agreement, or rather, reached a form of agreement so equivocal and slender, that it was immediately repudiated on all sides. The Prime Minister said, perhaps truly, that it is unprofitable to go back to the past, but I must, in justice, remind the House that during all this time the Conservative Party maintained a most considerate reticence. We have not pressed debate unduly; we have not in any way incommoded the efforts of the Government and great as were, and are, our apprehensions, we restrained our criticism. The plan of the Cabinet Mission failed. The various interpretations of the scheme reached such a point of confusion as to make it generally unacceptable and unworkable.
  A new situation was then created by the Government announcement of 20th February last. This decision to leave India by a fixed date in 1948, whether or not proper arrangements had been made for the transference of power, seemed to us an abdication of duty. We opposed it, upon two grounds, First, because the fixation of a date seemed to
  2466
  us an improper method for dealing with so great a question; it indicated a certain levity towards the immense responsibilities we had. Second, we felt that it was inconceivable that the British should in fact bring the story of over 250 years to an abrupt end without being certain that proper provisions were made, if not for the discharge of our obligations, at least for the continuance of orderly government. It was not, therefore, the mere fixation of the date to which we objected, but the abandonment of duty without any clear scheme by which the obligations we were unable to fulfil could be firmly placed upon other shoulders. Many difficulties sprang from that fateful decision. It made it almost certain that the two main parties in India would fail to reach any joint agreement, except an agreement to differ. It destroyed, for the present at any rate, all hope of preserving the unity of India.
  Perhaps the greatest contribution which the British connection has made to India is to preserve, indeed to create, the political and economic unity of that vast medley of religious, races and peoples who inhabit the sub-continent which we call India. To the long series of devoted public servants who have given their lives to India, it would always have been felt a terrible disaster if that unity had been disintegrated. Somehow to maintain it, at the same time as making provision for complete India self government, was the underlying problem that was partially solved by the Act of 1935.
  The decision of the present Government to leave India at a fixed date shattered, once and for all, the hope of unity. The only question which arose was whether the partition of India, now clearly necessary, could be achieved by peaceful methods or not. Partition which seems so easy a word to us Europeans, accustomed to minor groupings and small populations, is no clean-cut solution of age-long problems and processes. Enormous minorities will remain, however successful may be the work of the Boundary Commissions, on either side of the many frontiers. There is the possibility of Indian irredentism on an immense scale. Trieste, Trentino, Ireland, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and all the other minority problems of the world fade into insignificance compared to these. Moreover, there are other peoples, neither Muslim nor orthodox Hindu, in large numbers

  2467
  and of warlike character, who have a long tradition of loyalty to the Crown, who will be separated and divided, for instance, the Sikhs. Therefore partition, superficially attractive, like so many other superficially attractive remedies, has within it its own inherent dangers. The partition of the Punjab fills us with apprehension, and partition of Bengal is a most delicate and dangerous undertaking. Nevertheless, we can only repeat, with satisfaction, that peaceful partition is better than civil war.
  At this point, in a confused and dangerous situation, we must pay tribute to the work of the Viceroy. His efforts have radically altered and improved an almost desperate situation. He has been able to secure that partition should take place under conditions which reduce as much as possible the danger of a clash. The frightful blood bath which seemed to threaten India is, at the moment of our departure, at any rate, avoided. Immense as are the technical difficulties of making a fair distribution of assets, tangled as may be the problem of arranging that Pakistan should be in every sense a viable State, grave as are the dangers of India not being merely partitioned, but ultimately Balkanised, serious as may be our apprehensions as to the unworkability of the whole process, yet we on this side of the House must not endanger, but must welcome, a plan which avoids the most pressing and immediate dangers. It is largely the character and personality of Lord Mountbatten which has achieved this happy result, and to him we pay our tribute.
  At the same time, we must hope with the Prime Minister that in this partition are also the seeds of some form of future unity, at least of co-operation. The common services, transport, aviation, and the like, must be arranged to serve Pakistan and Hindustan and the States. A joint foreign policy and a joint system of defence seem inevitable if the peninsula is effectively to resist foreign aggression. It is to be remarked that very swiftly following these disturbing movements has come a claim from a foreign Power for annexation of an Indian Province. This has been immediately repulsed by His Majesty's Government and the Government of India, at least up to 15th August. But, after 15th August, it will only be if
  2468
  the two Dominions stand shoulder to shoulder that the whole weight of the Empire can be available for their common protection. It is indeed good news that a Joint Defence Council has been agreed for the preliminary purpose of dividing the Army. I trust that that council may develop into an instrument of strategic defence.
  I pass now to the second benefit which, in what seemed a black situation, the Viceroy has been able to obtain. That is the condition which my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford and his supporters insisted upon at the time of the Cripps Mission of 1942, which we have always held to be an indispensable condition if the long process towards self-government is to be carried out honourably and smoothly; that is, the willingness of the Indian States, Pakistan and Hindustan, to remain within the ambit of the British Commonwealth of Nations with, of course, all the freedoms of the Statute of Westminster. I must here frankly say that my right hon. and hon. Friends and I do not much like the Title of this Bill, "Indian Independence Bill," the more so because I understand that it is a phrase which does not result from any Indian request, but is due to the sole initiative of British draftsmen. This phrase seems to us to dwell too much on one aspect of the Commonwealth system, for it is the peculiar glory of the free nations which comprise the British Commonwealth that they are both independent and inter-dependent. Of course, in a sense every Dominion is independent; Dominion status implies complete autonomy, complete freedom, complete sovereignty, but that freedom, that autonomy and that sovereignty are exercised in an undefinable and almost mystical union, within the circle of the Crown, of all the nations of the Commonwealth by which and through which they mutually defend their mutual rights and interests. I would say that there are many nations in the world today which nominally have this position of independence and freedom, but which cannot in fact exercise it. I wish the nations of Europe had independence and the inter-dependence equal to the nations of the Commonwealth.
  Into our free association, therefore, we gladly welcome the new States of India and Pakistan. Let them make no mistake. We believe that experience will

  2469
  show them how great are the advantages. We do not seek to hold them against their will, for the obligations of the members to each other in voluntary co-operation may be very heavy. Nor must it be disguised that the decision—and I think it is a wise and statesmanlike decision—of the. leaders of the Congress Party and Muslim League, to remain at this stage within the Commonwealth is one which places on us and all other members of the Commonwealth prospective and potential burdens which it would be wise not to ignore. It places upon us, for instance, moral obligations for defence, to carry out which effectively I am not sure how far we have provided ourselves with the effective material instruments. It is a melancholy fact that inevitably the process of dividing the present Indian Army, in order later to rebuild it into two armies, will create for years to come a serious weakening in the defence of India. It is, therefore, all the more important that the new Dominions should rapidly range themselves with the general body of the United Nations.
  If we recognise the two major advantages of this agreement between the Muslim League and Congress and the decision of their leaders to remain within the British system of Commonwealths, we must not disguise from ourselves upon how slender a foundation the whole fabric rests. We cannot but have many apprehensions and misgivings as to the practical outcome of the future. Moreover, there are other serious considerations which weigh deeply with my right hon. Friends and hon. Friends. It is a rule of statesmanship, sometimes, alas, more honoured in the breach than in the observance, that in order to meet agreeable accommodation with interested parties with whom you may have been in conflict, it is not wise, indeed it is morally unjustifiable, to forget obligations to those who have long given you their trust and confidence. We have great obligations in India. The Muslims have been provided for; but we have also obligations to the many minor-ties in British India—the Anglo-Indians, the Sikhs, the millions of the depressed classes, primitive tribes and much else.
  This House has always been much moved in particular by the problem of the Scheduled Classes. Dr. Ambadkar's name is welcomed and deeply respected here. We had hoped in the structure of a new
  2470
  constitutional Bill provision might have been made for their protection. That, of course, it would be beyond our power to secure enforcement after we have severed our direct connection with India must be admitted; but the fact that provision had been made in the Bill in black and white, open for all to read and backed by opinion throughout the world, would at least have given to the minorities some sense of security. I would, therefore, express the hope that the Indian political leaders should announce publicly that they personally will do their utmost to see that the new Constitutions provide a liberal treatment for the weaker communities within their States.
  We have also obligations to all members of the services in India, civil or military, covenanted or non-covenanted, British or Indian, who have given the best part of their lives to the service of the Crown and whose loyalty to India is undoubted. Many of them feel anxious about their future and about the security of their pensions, provident funds and conditions of service. We were very glad to hear from the Prime Minister, and we welcome the statement made on behalf of the present Indian authorities, that they will recognise these obligations, but nothing can relieve the overriding obligation that rests upon us as well.
  I come next to the States. Their destiny is not even mentioned in this Bill, except negatively. All treaties and agreements in force at the date of the passing of this Act between His Majesty and the rulers of Indian states, all functions exercisable by His Majesty at that date with respect to Indian States, all obligations of His Majesty existing towards Indian States or the rulers thereof, and all powers, rights, authority or jurisdiction exercisable by His Majesty, all agreements or treaties between His Majesty and any person having authority in the tribal areas—all these, are unilaterally dissolved and abrogated. What a long story is ended by the final words of this chapter. What memories of comradeship or conflict, of wonderful loyalties, of battle and peace, of victories gained in common— above all of the firm and devoted association with the glorious reigns of the Empress Victoria the Great and succeeding Emperors.
  Clause 7, which I have summarised, sounds like the final end, but I cannot

  2471
  believe that is the only message which will go from this House to the Indian States. We warmly approve the decision of His Majesty's Government to resist the pressure to transfer paramountcy to the successor governments. They have been very wise in that. I was glad to hear, or think I heard, the Prime Minister say that the States were to be absolutely free in their choice as to whether or not they should join one or other of the new Constituent Assemblies; whether they should subsequently join one or other of the Dominions as they emerge from the Constituent Assemblies, or whether, finally, they will declare themselves free and independent sovereign authorities. I trust that this is true not only in words but in fact, because there have been disturbing rumours reaching us of a good deal of moral and even physical pressure which has been exercised, perhaps by misunderstanding of some of the official statements made in India or elsewhere.
  It must not be forgotten that the partition of India on what was largely and what is, indeed, still a religious basis throws a heavy strain upon the States. For they have always, and successfully, resisted the development within their territories of bitter communal strife. This explains the hesitation of some of them, at any rate, in allying themselves with one or other of the two new Dominions which are partitioned not on a geographical, not on an economical, but purely on a religious foundation. I hope, therefore, that before the end of this Debate the Government may be able to clarify the position a little further. They have said that the States are to have freedom of choice. I hope that they will make it clear that if it should prove that any of the great States, the important States, are unable to find a satisfactory method of association with one or other of the new Dominions, His Majesty's Government will be willing and ready to enter into satisfactory relations with them. Surely, the flexible instrument of British constitutional development, on which the Prime Minister rightly congratulated us, is capable of finding a suitable formula of association by which their loyalty and devotion to the Crown may find a new expression in harmonious association with the British Commonwealth, and with the United Nations.
  2472
  As the Prime Minister stated in his concluding review, this Bill is not, of course, a Bill to make a Constitution for British India. It is, to use his own phrase, an enabling Bill. It brings into being two Dominions and it transforms the present Constituent Assembly and the new Pakistan Assembly into bodies. that will be both constituent and legislative. It throws upon these organs the task of framing their own constitution. It states nothing as to many vital questions, the judiciary, the railways, the monetary system and a host of other matters. It makes no provision in the Bill itself as to the arrangement for settling the complicated problems of all Indian services and assets which will have to be divided between the two Dominions. As drawn up, the Bill merely contemplates providing the Governor-General, should the two Dominions agree, with the formal right under Clause 9 to make all such necessary orders and provisions as to resolve the great problems, the host of problems, which must arise from these tremendous constitutional changes.
  I have not been able yet quite to fit in what we have been told today as to the recommendations for the new Governor-General with the provisions of Clause 9, I cannot help feeling that it was drawn on a somewhat different plan. Nevertheless, as I think the House must understand, this is really the legal technical machinery in order to provide that agreements that are reached should be made legally effective, and we must depend now on the good will and good sense of the two Dominions through two Governments, supported and advised by the Governor-General, to reach agreeable arrangements and implement them by the provisions of this Clause. I, for one, if I may be allowed to say so, am very glad indeed to hear that the Viceroy has decided that it is his duty to accept the post which has been offered, because I think that on the Viceroy staying in India in whatever may be his capacity—Lord Mountbatten being present in India—a great deal of the hope which we have of fair and good arrangements depends.
  Since this is not a constitutional but an enabling Bill, we do not propose to treat the conduct of the Bill in this House as we would if it were a comprehensive constitutional Measure. We shall not attempt to move the many Amendments which would be necessary to clothe it with the

  2473
  detail and the elaboration of a constitutional act. We shall, therefore, be content, although with considerable Debate, to regard the Committee stage as primarily one of elucidation and explanation of the meaning, purpose and effect of the various Clauses.
  Parliament was informed a year ago of the Government's intentions, which we regarded as an abdication of their duty. This Bill is better than that, for it throws upon the Indian people now the major obligation of a great task. How are we to balance good and ill and how are we to make an evaluation of the position? Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House are not responsible for the developments which have taken place since the fall of the Coalition Government in the last two years. We have had great apprehensions and misgivings, but we fully recognise that there is in this Measure an opportunity better than that in existence a few months ago. To this salutary change the personality of the Viceroy has much contributed. This opportunity which, if it is grasped and exploited, may be of benefit not only to India but to Great Britain, because I believe that underlying the bitter conflicts between the politically minded classes in India and the Government, there is still a close and even intimate association of our people and the peoples of India which is the product of long association, and which cannot and indeed ought not to disappear. It may even be strengthened in the years that lie ahead.
  I began by tracing, however cursorily, the various phases of the British connection with India. By this Bill the political phase comes finally to an end. His Majesty's Government will no longer be responsible for the administration of India. Yet so intertwined are the roots of British and Indian life for nearly 300 years that I believe the association of Britain with India, and of India with Britain and with the Commonwealth has in it still the hope of a fruitful, prosperous and honourable relationship. Let us, therefore, at this moment first remember with trust and pride those British officials, civil and military, and those British people in commerce and industry, who have served India well for so long a period. So well have they served her that they have always been able to call to their aid deep affection and loyalty from
  2474
  the Indians with whom they have worked. They have sometimes been the butt of foolish criticism from their compatriots and from foreigners. Today, let us forget all that and pay grateful tribute to their memory.
  Let us pray that in this new sphere that is to begin the association between the British and Indian peoples on a new basis may be productive of great good to both. The English language is a permanent element in Indian life. Indian education, both in the humanities and science, is intimately linked with British institutions. The British system of justice is a lasting gift to India. In these and in intimate and sympathetic pursuits of the ethical and moral traditions of both elements, the pooling of technical knowledge and the free association of commercial interests, above all, in the great family of nations which comprise the British Commonwealth, let us hope that out of the darkness and uncertainty of recent years we may yet be destined to follow together in friendly comradeship, the road of co-operation and progress.
  5.36 p.m.
  Mr. Hopkin Morris: I should like to join with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) in congratulating the Prime Minister on the great speech he has made on this Bill. However, there is something much more interesting than that, and it is that each party in the State when it has been in power has been filled with that sense of justice and liberty which is always becoming to the champions of liberty. It is to the Conservative Party that the credit belongs of having framed the Constitutions both for Canada and, 33 years later, for Australia. As the Prime Minister reminded us, it is to the Liberal Party that South Africa owes its liberty, and today we are seeing the Socialist Party extending the same liberty to the great sub-continent of India. The three parties alike have the interests of justice and liberty at heart.
  More than that, the speech which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley has delivered, representing as it does the view of his party, shows that the three parties in Britain are united upon the Measure now brought forward by the Government. The machinery in

  2475
  the Bill is, no doubt, important in itself, whatever may be said in regard to elucidation of the various Clauses, but important as the machinery of the Bill may be, the really important thing here is the large measure of agreement which has been achieved between the parties concerned here in England. The spirit behind the Bill is the really important issue, because it gives it security and whatever stability it may have. The free institutions of any country do not in the last resort, depend for their stability upon the law, nor upon whatever constitutional machinery has to be made. I am not saying that those are not important, for they are; but the first essential in the maintenance of free institutions is the spirit which animates all sections of the community.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister rightly paid a tribute to the great achievements of the Viceroy, but there have been efforts made by the previous Viceroy and by other holders of that office. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade and his colleagues did excellent work, paving the way I have no doubt for this greater achievement, and he and they ought to share in the thanks of the House for what they did. The Prime Minister called attention to the services that this country has rendered in its administration over the long period of its connection with India, and he stated that that service conformed largely to the highest standards of the British race. Our civil servants have gone there and have come away without enriching themselves. They have been content with their salaries and their pensions, and have given great service and shown a sense of fair play and of justice. That sense of fair play and of justice is a contribution made by this country which will, I think, be lasting in the life of India and in the other new Dominions which have been created.
  Whether India and Pakistan will live together and come to a common understanding is a matter first and foremost for them alone. We cannot do more than encourage them. They have to solve their problems themselves. It is true that questions abound which can become difficult, but it depends upon how one looks at the situation. The boundary can be regarded as the frontier which
  2476
  separates two territories; on the other hand, it can be regarded as the frontier where two civilisations meet; and if India looks upon it in that way, there is hope yet for a united India. The difficulties of different rights, different traditions. different languages and great distances have been known to us in Europe. and we have not solved them. In fact, we are far from solving them in Europe. and we cannot expect India to solve them quickly if we cannot do so ourselves. It may be a better thing for the ultimate union of India that there should have been a division, however unfortunate we think it now. Unity does not rest solely upon a form of union between very different views; nor does liberty rest on that basis in the last resort.
  The House may remember a poem by Browning in which he draws attention to the three souls in one soul. The first soul is the one that works, looking down to the earth—the material part, with the belief that you cannot establish Utopia except upon the earth. But although looking down, it also looks upward through the soul that feels and wills, although even when you have reached that level in human institutions, the material organisation of society divides society, however common the interests may be. This is an essential characteristic of man. The unit which the mind provides, and which the tradition of civilisation provides—the intellect—is not necessarily a corporate unit. It may also be divided, as it is in Europe. The third soul is the unity of the soul and the spirit. If that illuminates both the thought and the work of the Indian people, then there is hope for the prosperity of both.
  Once the details of the Bill are agreed upon in broad outline by the different sections and become really operative, what we really hope now is that they will be implemented and that the same spirit that is given to this agreement for the time being, will not be lightly dismissed with a reversion to divisions between the people. There is promise of success in the fact that India herself has requested the Viceroy to remain as Governor-General. Whether or not it would be better that he should be Governor-General of both India and Pakistan, the fact that he remains Governor-General of India with the goodwill of Pakistan is the important factor. It does not matter whether he is the

  2477
  Governor-General of Pakistan, but it is important that he should have the goodwill of Pakistan when he is Governor-General of India.
  It is a great thing that this important representative of our country commands the confidence of races as widely different as the Indian races—with differences as acute as those which activate them—and it says a good deal for the respect which has grown out of their experience of the British administration, an administration based on the character of the British race and their love of liberty. It will crown, not only in the eyes of India but in the eyes of the world, the belief of the people of this country in the freedom of man to govern his own affairs. The fact that this Parliament is handing over to this great race the right to determine their own affairs without interference is an act without parallel, as far as I know, in the whole of the history of man. It is an act which might well be imported to Europe and is a great lesson to Europe in its present state. It is also a great lesson to Asia. I hope that this act will be observed by the whole world, and that the spirit which animates this House today in giving freedom to India will animate India with the same tolerance towards its minorities.
  5.48 p.m.
  Mr. Richards: I think I am expressing the view of the House when I say that we were very disappointed, particularly on this side, by the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan). I know that he does not represent all hon. and right hon. Members opposite, but it seemed to me that he had really not learned anything, and had not developed at all in the direction of assessing the fundamental claims of India to which the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris) has just referred. On the other hand, I think that the Government are to be very sincerely congratulated upon the determination and speed with which they have approached this most difficult Imperial problem that has been facing us now for some time.
  There was no analogy upon which to work, as was said by the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen. The case of Canada is not an analogy at all It is true that there were two races in Canada, in feud, the British and the French, but
  2478
  they shared a common European tradition. The same thing is true of South Africa, and one was very glad to hear the Prime Minister pay a tribute to the great and heroic work done by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman when, almost immediately after the end of the Boer War, he gave self-government to the Boers in South Africa. In India there are not just two races; there are a score or more and, as we have heard several times today, they are hopelessly divided on the question of religion. I think that it is probably true to say that what constitutes nationalism in India is not essentially a difference of race or language, but the religious differences which for so long a time have divided the country into various sections.
  It requires a great deal of courage on the part of the Government to recognise this and to recognise that this kind of nationalism could not really be amalgamated without recognising these essential differences. It would be interesting to know—history would like to know— exactly who brought the Government round to this point of view. They have for a long time been moving in this direction, but they have been moving, as we all know, in the direction of keeping India as a unit. Who persuaded them that that was an impossibility under present conditions, and that they must recognise these very fundamental differences between the two sections in India, which we all hope will eventually lead to an amalgamation of the two nations later?
  This House was really getting rather tired of the reiterated statements of the last Secretary of State for India. He used always to say that this House and this country were quite prepared to give India Home Rule, provided they could sink their differences or come to some agreement. We all realise that agreement between people of this kind was almost an impossibility, and that it was the duty of the Government to do something definitely to bring them together. I agree entirely with what the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen said about the great work that was done by the President of the Board of Trade. That was the first attempt to break the impasse, and the results of his visit to and effort in India are still to be found there. Progress from that point has been much easier than it was previously. However hopeful his mission looked at one time, it proved

  2479
  eventually to be a failure, and for some time I was very much afraid that we would drift again into the position of leaving the Indians severely alone and letting them, if they could, fight it out or come to some agreement of their own. But the Government had the courage again to send out three Members of the Cabinet in order to try to solve this very difficult question, and the recollection of their visit and of their very sincere endeavours to bring the two parties together is still fresh in the minds of all of us.
  Their conception was to try to, retain the unity of India, and at the same time to give India a very considerable and complete measure of autonomy. That again failed, although the plan was a very ingenious one and certain steps were taken to put it into operation; but apart from a few suggestions that were accepted and put into operation in connection with the Constituent Assembly, the thing failed, and failed for one main reason. A large body of Indian opinion—the Muslim League as it is known—stood entirely outside. It was very difficult for the Government, having spent a lot of time, having sent out to India three of its most eminent Members and having worked hard at a solution of the problem, to abandon this position once again and to recognise that a united India, at the present moment at any rate, was an impossibility.
  What we are witnessing today is a complete departure from the point of view and a recognition of the fact that we have to set up not one Dominion but two Dominions in India. The Bill is concerned with the setting up of two Dominions. Some of us are very apt to criticise Mr. Jinnah in this respect, and to say that he is the evil genius of the piece. Mr. Jinnah is a very formidable figure in the fife of India, and he has undoubtedly had a very considerable success at the polls and elsewhere in putting forth the Muslim case. If we take a long view of it, it is all to the good when all is said and done. It is well that in a country like India, which is very largely socially and politically amorphous, a specific point of view should be quite definitely crystallised, as Mr. Jinnah has managed to do it.
  We know now that there are, roughly speaking, 100 million Mohammedans who
  2480
  are not prepared, at the present time, at any rate, to co-operate with the Hindus, and are determined to stand out. As I have suggested once or twice already, it is greatly to the credit of the Government to have recognised this and to have established not a kind of unified India but the two Dominions, India and Pakistan. We must recognise, on the other hand, that Pakistan raises very difficult questions indeed. The territory of Pakistan is not contiguous nor is its population homogeneous, and it will be very interesting to watch how this Dominion will fuse itself together and constitute a unitary State. One part of it is in the Northwest region, a very poor part of India. The other part is in the far east. Hundreds of miles separate the two parts. It must be very difficult for the Government of Pakistan to know how to correlate those two sections of the same State. It will be interesting to watch the progress it makes. Its -economics are equally difficult, because the Northwestern parts are very poor indeed. and the resources of Pakistan will not compare with the resources of India.
  Another element of difficulty is that whichever State gets the North-Western Provinces and the Provinces beyond must bear the brunt of the defence of the North-West Frontier. Here we have a problem of a comparatively poor State which will be forced in some way to undertake the defence of the North-West Frontier. But, of course, that is not for this House to do, seeing that we are transferring the power to these new Indian Dominions; it will be for them to reach the solution of this difficult question. However, I am sure that we all rejoice that the Government have seen fit, despite the difficulties, despite the disappointment of not having a unified India, to face the situation frankly and to recognise that the only immediate solution is to set up two Dominions with equal power and' enjoying an equal degree of freedom. When they have been accustomed to working in that way, the sincere hope of this House is that they will learn to work together and will gradually build up something like a united India.
  As the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen said, you cannot force unity on people. I know a very small nation where there has been an attempt to force

  2481
  it into unity with this nation, but I think I am expressing the view of those people when I say that still, deep in the heart, is something which separates them very definitely and sincerely indeed. That is I feel the danger of trying to force unity on two peoples like the Muslims and the Hindus, who have not only different ideas but diametrically opposed ideas, whose traditions from the beginning of time have been absolutely different. You cannot force people of that kind to live together if they do not want to do so, and I am glad that the Government have recognised that point of view. I am sure we are all happy this afternoon that this House of Commons at long last, after several struggles, is transferring to the Indian people the working out of their own destiny. They have already absorbed many of our best traditions. For example, they are deeply versed in their love of liberty, to which the hon. and learned Member has referred. They have absorbed a great deal of our culture. We hope that with their own indigenous culture, with their own extraordinarily rich traditions, they, too, will contribute largely to the levelling up of the life in the East, and will lead other nations as well to recognise the benefits and the advantages of self-government.
  6.3 p.m.
  Sir Stanley Reed: May I ask the indulgence of the House for what I hope will be a comparatively brief period while I make my contribution to this Debate? I ask for the indulgence of hon. Members because I give my own personal opinion only, and I owe responsibility only to myself and to those with whom I lived and worked in India. Speaking with that personal responsibility, may I say at once that I welcome this Bill; I welcome the form of the Bill; I welcome the timing of the Bill. All those are three valuable points in it as it has been presented to us by the Prime Minister today.
  Some criticism has been made of the name of the Bill—the Indian Independence Bill. I am not very concerned with names but, if I had to choose one, I would call it the Fulfilment of India Bill, for throughout it and throughout all the steps which have led to its presentation, it has to my mind one outstanding and dominating characteristic—it is the fulfilment of our "concept and trust," in
  2482
  Burke's words, of all our work in India, and it is a fulfilment of the agreed policy of all parties in this House when the President of the Board of Trade went there in 1942 on his historic mission. It seems to me that it expresses that fulfilment in what should be the most appropriate and effective manner. After all, the keynote of the message which the present President of the Board of Trade took to India with the agreement of all parties in the Coalition Government, was that we would charge India herself with the framing of her own constitution, and we would abandon the complex and hopeless task of attempting to frame another Constitution for India on the Floor of this House.
  The only difference between that agreed policy of 1942 and the machinery set up in the Bill today, is that, whereas the agreed Constitution was to have been endorsed by Parliament, Parliament has now given to India full mandate and authority for the framing of her own Contribution without interposing the second stage of bringing it back here for endorsement, and, possibly, long and acrimonious Debate. I welcome equally strongly in this Bill the wide powers given to the Governor-General, and the Governors, of the several issues as they arise, because after all, in an enabling Bill of this character and in the situation as it exists in India today, the paramount necessity is a reasonable speed in carrying out our definite policy of fulfilment. Arising out of all delays has hung the spectre of a progressive decline in administration, and also the lamentable increase in civil strife. That is largely due to the paralysis of uncertainty which is hanging over India, and has been hanging over India, and to the emasculating feebleness of a divided responsibility. Therefore, the sooner that responsibility is definitely, clearly and in-eradicably fixed upon the Indian people, through the machinery of their own constitution, the greater should be our hopes and our confidence of the emergence from the present decline in administration, and from the threat of civil strife which hangs rather heavily over that land.
  So, on all these grounds, I wish to extend to this Bill—subject to any examination in Committee and further elucidation which may be required—my entire and whole-hearted support. However, it is deplorable that on this great day of the fulfilment of our work in India, of our pledges

  2483
  to India, that there should hang this tragedy of division in the land where we have built up unity over a century and a half. The one proposition I cannot accept, the one proposition I must rejeut, is that the fixing by the Government of a definite time-table made this division inevitable. On the contrary, I would say this. We have learned by long and bitter experience not from today or yesterday, but going back at least 40 years, that self-government in India to which we are irrevocably pledged, is extraordinarily difficult, if not unattainable, without division. The vast opportunity of unity embodied in the Act of 1935 arose from the fact that it was never put into operation at the centre. So now we have come to the stage when responsibility for full self-government is unattainable without division, and we reluctantly accept it, not as a permanent condition, but in the earnest hope that there will come from present partition a close union which will secure for all parties within that union a feeling of confidence in the preservation of their religion, their culture, and their economic and social rights.
  Apart from that, there must be on a great historic occasion like this a certain pang that the long association of the Crown with the Indian States should be severed. To me that is a rather bitter feeling. For many years of my life I was in the closest association with the Rulers of many of the Indian States, with the late Maharajah of Bikanar, an eminent soldier-statesman, the Maharajah of Gwalior, one of the shrewdest Maratha Rulers, and many others. I remember very well Lord Curzon saying of the Princes and of the States that they were pillars of the Crown. As I look over our history during the two great wars I can say there was no sacrifice they were not willing to make, and no effort they were unready to put forward in the common service of the Crown, the Commonwealth and the Empire.
  It has always been an unquiet thought to me, and a rather humiliating thought when friends have told me that they have found the people happier in the Indian States than they were in British India. In all my contacts with these distinguished men I have always ventured to press for two things. One was to come within the Government machine as it develops; the other to bend all their efforts to building up in their own States, a form of
  2484
  administration which would carry on their work, without depending entirely on the personality of their successors. We have now come to the time when that old historic connection must be changed, and there is to be an association of the States, with the new Dominions.
  With the withdrawal of our para-mountcy, and with the lapsing of our treaties, the States become, without embarking on constitutional niceties, independent today. Yet their future is strictly bound up with the whole future of India. Already we have seen developments of a rather striking character. We have seen many of them associating themselves with the Constituent Assembly. If we look at a map of India, at the diversity of Baroda and Gwalior and the Southern Maratha States, we appreciate why this should be so. There are over 600 of these States, large and small, and in Kathiawar, Central India and the Southern Deccan, they are forming a confederation, which is all to the good. But in the case of the major and more homogeneous States, the decision must lie with them. The suggestion has been made that we should, on request, enter into contractual relations with some or all of these major States outside of the ambit of one or both of the new Dominions. I am a timorous and cowardly man in many respects, and I have many fears and anxieties, but I have one overmastering fear, and it is lest this country should enter into obligations, in a spirit of altruism, which it cannot discharge, and then lay itself open in the days to come to a charge of breach of faith and of letting down our friends.
  So I would ask the Government to think many times before they enter into any such arrangements, and never to accept any responsibility we could not fulfil. We have certain anxieties in connection with the Scheduled Classes and the Anglo-Indian community. There again, do not let us be under the slightest delusion. The Scheduled Classes' main difficulty, is not political, it is social. The future of the Anglo-Indians lies within the country itself, and with the Governments of that country; and we should not lead them up the garden path again by promises which we cannot carry out or by mere words, words, words, even if written in a treaty or constitution.
  Therefore I accept the Bill, I accept the two Dominions as the only possible solu-

  2485
  tion of the Indian situation today which is consistent with out definite pledges and our definite guarantee. I hope no one will be under the impression that I am glozing over difficulties and problems. The Prime Minister today spoke of the work of the Boundary Commissions of the East and West Punjab as affecting the Sikh Community. The Sikh is a very dour and dogged man. We have problems connected with the future of the Northwest Frontier, although those may not be so great. I think defence has loomed too much in our discussions. Oddly enough, as far as it has gone, the problem of the Army has proved one of the easiest for which to find a solution. But there are vast problems which almost baffle solution connected with the Customs, with the debt and the service of the debt, with currency and communications, central taxes and the sterling balances, all built up on a strong central and unified administration. It will be hard indeed, and will demand the best brains available and a spirit of co-operation to find a solution.
  This brings me to my final point on which I would like to speak rather warmly. If I address myself to it with some emotion I hope the House will forgive me for I feel very deeply on this subject. I think it would be very rash to suppose that the Indian leaders now called upon to take up this tremendous responsibility for the Government of India, are not themselves profoundly aware of the nature of the task they are willing to shoulder. May I recount a personal experience? After the Act of 1935 came into operation, I was back in India in one of the Provinces where Home Rule had been established under its provisions. The Prime Minister happened to be a friend of mine since his student days. He rather surprised me by saying, "We accepted office with fear and trembling. We have very little administrative experience, no united party, no Press." I feel that these men who have given long service to politics in India and Pakistan are fully alive to the tremendous responsibilities they have to undertake. I think they are looking to this House and to this country with rather watchful eyes to see what is our reaction to their work and to their actions. We have rightly heard today very much of India's debt to Britain, our immense services in establishing unity—the rule of law,
  2486
  a common language, a tradition and custom based on the Christian ethic and all that that means, the sacrifice and devotion of a great company of civil servants and of men in commerce and industry, of missionaries and of English women who have set themselves the task of helping their sisters in India towards emancipation. All those things we know and feel intensely.
  I wish to speak of the other side, that is, Britain's debt to India, which is sometimes forgotten in these and other discussions—of the great position it has given us in the world by an association of a century and a half; of British commerce warmed, nourished and extended by our intimate relations; of the field for adventure opened to tens of thousands of our younger sons and cadets of our houses, who found there a freer and more ample life than they could have found in the narrow confines of these islands; and. above all, that friendship, abounding generosity almost unlimited, which whole families of Englishmen have found in India, and which is a precious memory with them and with us today. That true recognition of our services to India which. believe me, Indians really fee] when political passion is put aside and all sense of inequality is dropped, and our recognition of India's services to us in directions I have briefly sketched should be vividly before us.
  Let us go forward then, on this great day in the history of the human race, this greatest day in the history of the British Commonwealth and Empire, when we are passing into the hands of the Indian people the tremendous responsibility for peace, order, good government and the protection of a growing population of 400 million against hunger, with the recognition of the services of both sides; above all in a spirit of confidence, a spirit of trust and a spirit of helpfulness and patient co-operation with them in this immense task which they have undertaken. So let us, lacking nothing in devotion, nothing we have in power, in our resources and strength, dedicate ourselves to helping them forward in the immense duty which is now committed to them, help them along the thorny path upon which they have now entered. Let this day, this hour of fulfilment, be marked by an irrevocable fact—the pledge of the best we have, the utmost we can do to lighten

  2487
  the task which we have been proud to remit to them.
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. Sorensen: I am quite sure that all of us have been inspired by the eloquent words of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed). It is equally heartening that on both sides of the House there are those who welcome what he has said. I am certain that many of us agree with the sentiments he has expressed, especially his exhortation to the Indian people to respond to the present opportunity, and in the deep desire that in the days ahead they may not only show an example to the world, but continue in terms of close friendship with this country. I rise, not merely to welcome the Bill, but also to express my regret, which I am sure others also share, that this Bill, unfortunately though perhaps necessarily, endorses the partition of India. I am quite sure that the majority of Indian people and the majority of those of us in this House equally regret that apparently inevitable necessity. But even though India must now be divided, I am equally certain that all of us desire to express good will to Pakistan and its future inhabitants, as well as to India as a whole. Although some of us have striven in a very modest and amateur way to secure an India that should be both united and free, and regret, therefore, that it is free but not united, nevertheless that has never meant, and does not now mean, that we withhold any measure of good will to those who thought otherwise, and who, behind the leadership of Mr. Jinnah, have carved out this truncated Pakistan in that great Indian sphere.
  I most earnestly hope and believe that in the course of time this partition of India will be bridged. For one thing, if it is proven in the days ahead that the Hindu minority within Pakistan and the Muslim minority within India have nothing to fear, but can live together in terms of sympathy and comradeship, that should surely supply the cement which will ultimately unite these two peoples of India. Again, if within Pakistan on the one hand, and India on the other, these two communities are dwelling together in peace and comradeship, surely it will come to be realised that there is no reason why the whole of India should not equally include those and other communities, dwelling in
  2488
  the same atmosphere. It may take some time before this desirable stage is at last achieved, and it would certainly be a mistake prematurely to try, so to speak, to rush the position and induce that which can only be achieved after some time has elapsed. That does not mean we shall withhold our earnest hopes and prayers that human beings in India, whether in Pakistan or the vaster part of India, will in the end realise that though experimentally for a time they have drawn apart, it has only been in order that they may later come more closely together.
  It is significant that there are other minorities, Christians, Parsees, and Sikhs, who are prepared to live henceforth in this Dominion of India, and who though they have sought for legitimate safeguards, have nevertheless secured them to their own satisfaction. Is it too much to hope that those who live in Muslim Pakistan will come to realise the same thing? Certainly it would be lamentable if that division reduced the prospect of co-operation. Those of us who possess a religious faith regard it as part of our being and, naturally, we cherish its qualities. There may be great differences between our own personal faith and Hinduism on the one hand or Islam on the other. Nevertheless one always hopes that there are those in all the faiths who try to find the highest common denominator. Surely one can be found in Islam and Hinduism as well as in Christianity, in the recognition of the fact that whatever the pattern our faiths may be we must at least learn to dwell together in concord, neighbourliness and friendship. If that can be proved in the days ahead, though we may regret the present partition, we shall see that wall of partition dissolve in due course.
  There is another element in India to which inadequate attention has been drawn today, and that is the significance of the Indian States. Some 80 million or more people dwell within those States, some of which, I understand, have already declared their intention to be independent, now that British para-mountcy has been withdrawn. I recognise fully that from the legal standpoint perhaps no other step could have been taken by us than to leave them to their own devices, in recognition of their independence. I cannot help wishing, however, that some way might have been

  2489
  found which would have secured for the people of those States greater recognition of their human rights than is likely to take place than by merely releasing from paramountcy their somewhat despotic rulers. I want to make myself quite clear in this respect. Legally speaking, I suppose nothing else can be done. A treaty was made. That treaty has been renounced, paramountcy has been withdrawn, and I suppose this means that automatically authority then passed to the rulers of those Indian States. But that does not alter the fact that those rulers, even though they may be as estimable as was asserted by the hon. Member for Aylesbury, nevertheless are despotic rulers. They are not democratic representatives.
  One must not forget the fact that we are now leaving to these rulers, whether they be benevolent or otherwise, some 80 million human beings who, surely, have as much right to enjoy the new democratic atmosphere of India as those who dwell in what is called British India. I can only hope that the Indian rulers themselves, the Princes, the Rajas and Maharajas, and all those who undoubtedly have very great responsibility, will see their way towards uniting either with Pakistan on the one hand or India on the other. I hope that they will voluntarily recognise what a disservice they will be rendering to India if they try to hold themselves aloof and that, indeed, they will demonstrate more than anything else their real devotion to India by voluntarily relinquishing their own despotic inheritance. I hope that indeed they will try to make India an India comprehensive of all the people of India, without princely islands segregating and separating the Indian people and thus likely to promote division.
  Reference was made by the Prime Minister, quite rightly, to the service rendered by many English people in India. There is no reason why that service should not continue to be rendered. There is no reason why the spirit of devotion and service which has characterised numbers of English men and women in the past should not still be amply poured out in India. It need not in the future be said that such service is associated with ulterior motives. Now without qualification; without suspicion, those British and other peoples not of Indian stock who care to go to India
  2490
  to live there or who remain outside India but have a genuine love of that country, can give of their best disinterestedly on behalf of the Indian peoples. Further, I would add that there has been little mention save by the hon. Member for Aylesbury—and then only by implication—of the great service rendered to India not by Englishmen and women, but by Indians themselves. That has been a service rendered not merely to India but to the whole world.
  I think we should register a note of profound gratitude to those great lovers of freedom who for many years have striven for the liberation of India, not merely for the benefit of India but for the benefit of Britain as well. Indeed, for Britain to be released from the embarrassing position of a conqueror is a service to Britain. So long as friendship existed on the basis of conqueror and conquered, whatever benevolence may have been displayed, and undoubtedly on occasion this has been displayed, whatever splendid services may have been rendered, and undoubtedly they have been rendered, it does not alter the fact that we were in the position of a conqueror over another people who judged themselves to be conquered. That is now to disappear and, with its disappearance, Britain is to be all the nobler, as India will be all the freer.
  I would, therefore, voice my very warm congratulations to His Majesty's Government in the step they have taken. I know full well that there are those who rather cynically declare that we are getting out while the going is good. I will agree that the circumstances are such that in the course of some years from now, if not months, we should have had to quit India. But the difference between quitting India of sheer necessity, ungraciously and grudgingly, and quitting India deliberately and with dignity, is indeed very great. It is the difference between leaving India with bitterness, rancour and malice brooding in the atmosphere, and leaving India with hope, confidence and goodwill. The British Government have taken the step, not merely of necessity but in consistency with their own democratic profession, of saying to India, not that we grant freedom to India, but that we recognise India's intrinsic right to be free to work out her own salvation. I give my most warm congratulations to the Government, and I

  2491
  am inclined to feel that there are now many on both sides of the House who can share my appreciaton of their decision.
  My final point is that India undoubtedly has profound problems, as have we and, the rest of the world. It is not for us condescendingly to lecture India. We can advise as from one friend to another. No doubt she will look to us for advice and we will look to India for advice. I most earnestly trust, for the sake not only of the millions of human beings in India but for the sake of the whole human race, that India speedily will demonstrate to the world how energetic she is in her determination to rid herself of some of the great burdens and abuses which unfortunately still remain in that country. I refer, for instance, to the appalling poverty of the Indian people. But there is not only that. There is the ignorance, disease, superstition and the subjugation of their womenfolk. These are but some of the problems which India must solve. They are not only Indian problems; they are human problems.
  It is for that reason I hope and believe that, in the days ahead, India will show how she can tackle and solve her own problems. In so doing, she will be rendering a great service to her own people and to the whole of the human race. If I have played any small, humble, obscure part in contributing towards what I feel is a moment of hope and inspiration for mankind, I feel indeed deeply moved at the privilege which has been mine. We should all realise that now India is to be free there is no need to hold back and say our task is over. We may have a new and constructive task. Let us see that we render our new service well and, in hope and confidence in the future, may we anticipate a rich response from India. Together, the Indian human beings on the one hand and the British human beings on the other can, in free fellowship, show our age how the world can be re-made not on the basis of ill-will but on the basis of mutual aid, respect and free comradeship.
  6.38 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North): I have listened to a good many Indian Debates in this House and also when this House was another place. I remember hearing
  2492
  Lord Morley move the Second Reading of his India Reforms Bill as long ago as 1908. I supported the Act of 1935, but never before have I opened my mouth on the subject of India in Parliament. Now, however, I feel that I would like to make a few remarks about this Bill. I have always been one who realised that sooner or later it would be our task to hand over the government of India to the Indian people. I have always realised that the Home Rule promised to India when the Crown took over the government of that country, must be given to India at some time or another when it was judged that the Indian people were ready for self-government and could work together for the common good. I am not, therefore, one who' is at all startled by this Bill, or fearful as to what it proposes.
  I have never believed that it would be possible to establish a single united India if there was to be self-government, and that is why I was always rather doubtful when I supported, as I did, the Act of 1935; but I did so on the assurances of many friends of mine, official and otherwise, who knew India well, that Home Rule was inevitable, and who seemed to consider that Home Rule was a feasible proposition for the whole of India. Never myself having had the advantage of visiting India, not even for the short space of time considered sufficient by some people to learn all about the country and its problems in a few weeks' tour, during which, I understand, they usually stay with officials of the British Government and not amongst the Indian people—never having had that experience—I have always felt that I must accept the views given to me by those of my friends who were really experienced in Indian affairs, either by their official or other connections with the country or by their military duties, and, therefore, I voted in support of the Act of 1935.
  But I never really was satisfied, as I have already said, that it would be possible, at any rate, when self-government was first initiated in India, to have a united central authority running the whole of British India, and my reason for that was that there was a tremendous divergence between the Indian peoples, and especially between the Hindus and the Muslims; and I would point out to

  2493
  the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken that religious differences are more dividing than almost any other differences which divide mankind. I do not think we can possibly expect to have a united India under self-government for many years to come, and then it can only come by agreement among the Indians themselves. We should remember that we could never have established our position of paramountcy in India had there been union among the Indian peoples. We could not possibly have maintained our position in India as the governing race if the whole of the Indian races had been united against us, and it is because of that fact that we have remained so long in India. To say that we would have been there had the peoples of India combined against us, is, in my view, quite absurd.
  Therefore, I think it is true that but for the fact of this lack of unity among Indian politicians, there might have been an Indian settlement some years ago. It was because of their inability to agree among themselves that delays took place and it was impossible to come to a decision. I have no doubt that the new Viceroy was given instructions to bring about a decision as quickly as he could, and he has done so, and, I think, very effectively. I do not mean by that that I think the times are going to be very easy in India for some time to come. There is no doubt that partition will be an extremely difficult thing to effect satisfactorily, and when it has been effected and there are two separate Dominions in India, we still have to face the fact of all the defence, social, economic and financial difficulties which it will entail. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. MacMillan) alluded to them in his speech, and there is no need for me to deal further with them. I am quite certain, however, that the difficulties are going to be intense, and will mean that, unless there is a great deal of give-and-take between the ruling races in India, considerable trouble and discord must be expected.
  That brings me to the point which I have in mind—the risk of anarchy. I have always been disturbed in my mind whether it would be right for us to leave India when there were such differences in political opinion there and when great communal disturbances were going on.
  2494
  Ought we to leave the great mass of the population of India living in conditions which might well lead to every kind of disorder and possibly to civil war? It is because I believe that the partition which has been made will reduce this danger that I accept it. I have feared the anarchy which I felt might be provoked. I realise the necessity for the maintenance of law and order, and I understand that the Government are taking due steps in this direction. I think this Bill may do much to maintain the intimate relationship between this country and the subcontinent of India, and I have been fearful lest union, when it came about in India, as it was visualised by some of the political leaders in India, might lead to India leaving the British Commonwealth. I think that such a policy would be a disaster for India and a terrible loss to this country. I hope that these two new self-governing Dominions will remain within the Commonwealth. They will strengthen the Commonwealth, which will, in turn, be able to support them. I believe that the British Commonwealth is the greatest institution in government which the world has ever seen, and that the larger it becomes and the greater it grows, the surer I am that it is the best instrument for preserving the peace of the world.
  6.47 p.m.
  Mr. Lester Hutchinson: I am afraid I do not share the optimism of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken, nor I believe does the Prime Minister. I was very pleased that the speech of my right hon. Friend made it clear that he entered upon this new plan very reluctantly, though he regarded it as a material advance on the plan which this House approved last March. One must have every sympathy with the Government, torn between the conflicting and uncompromising demands of Hindu and Muslim politicians and must realise that they were faced with a dilemma which called for the judgment of Solomon, but, when Solomon has finished, not only by bisecting the country, but by cutting it up into small pieces, I hope that his judgment will not be so universally acclaimed as it is today.
  I am sure that we are leaving India more or less in the same condition as we found it after the collapse of the Mogul Empire. We are leaving India with a

  2495
  number of independent, or semi-independent States. We have divided it into Hindustan and Pakistan, and we have abolished, as far as I can see, any form of central government. In these conditions, we are undoing what we ourselves have achieved, because if there is one thing we did achieve in our history in India it was to weld together all the conflicting forces of India into a nation. Now, by accepting the principle of partition, we are undoing the great work that we did in India. On the question of Indian union or division, I would say that this is not a separate problem; it is merely two aspects of the same problem, which is that of Hindu-Muslim differences, and until we can find some solution to Hindu-Muslim differences, there will be no peace or stability in India.
  I do not believe that these differences are as deep as they are sometimes made out to be. It is true that it is very easy to excite them by political and other means, but I have found that when bodies of men, both Hindus and Mohammedans, are bound together by a common economic interest, they work together loyally and in a friendly manner, and there are no differences whatsoever. When in India, I particularly noticed that the riots were mostly confined to certain quarters, and that the respectable working parts of the city were left completely untouched. Nevertheless, we have to face the fact today that these communal differences have been artificially stirred up to such an extent that, to my mind, the division of India constitutes a very grave danger, and one which we shall have to face.
  I do not think that partition is going to solve the differences; it is merely going to accentuate them. Imagine a situation where there are two Powers on a territorial basis, each with a powerful army based and recruited on religious principles, without any attempt whatever being made to heal those essential differences. In my view, that would create the danger of catastrophe. There are many other difficult problems to be faced as the result of partition. Presumably, both Pakistan and India will pursue separate foreign policies. If, for example, Congress India should enter into close relations with Russia, and Pakistan should join the Saad Abad alliance of Turkey, Irak,
  2496
  Persia and Afghanistan, which the Soviet Government regard as anti-Russian, what is going to be the repercussion on Indian and world foreign policy? I believe that partition, to which the Government have been forced, contains many serious problems and dangers which we must keep in mind as a basis of responsibility.
  The right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) referred in detail to the problem of the Indian States. This, also, raises some very serious questions, some of more importance than others. To begin with, what is going to happen to the Province of Berar? The House will remember that this Province, when it was found to be suitable for growing cotton, was taken over from Hyderabad by Lord Curzon's administration in 1902. I believe that the only compensation the Nizam received was the alteration in his title from "Highness" to "Exalted Highness." But the point remains that Hyderabad is now claiming the return of the Province. I think it has every justification for the claim. On the other hand, I hope that the Government will not accede to it, because I do not think it would be to the benefit of the peasants in Berar to return to the despotism of an independent State of Hyderabad. What we must know is what are our commitments towards those new independent States which we are creating?
  To my mind, the Indian States, politically speaking, are remarkable examples of the survival of the unfittest. They would not have existed without the might of the paramount Power behind them. If the strength of the paramount Power is going to be withdrawn, can it be expected that the people in those States are going to tolerate their feudal conditions, side by side with the progress of modern India? If they rise against their Princes, what is going to be the function of Britain in her separate treaties with the States? Are we to be expected to repress such risings as we recently had to do in Kashmir? The problem of the Princes, I believe, is one which hits the whole basis of the scheme, and one which has to be looked at very seriously, because, if we are going to enter into any particular treaty commitments which force us to be used as instruments of Princely despotism, then the whole basis of the Indian independence plan will fail from the very outset.
  There can be no peace or stability in India unless it is realised, as I believe to

  2497
  be the truth, that the problem is not mainly a religious or political one, but is essentially an economic problem. As long as the annual income per head in India is only £4 10s. there can be no peace or stability there. I hope that the British Government will give encouragement to those forces of progress already working in India for a higher standard of living conditions, because, without it, the Indian problem will be a constant burden on the world. The first essential for India is a radical system of agrarian reform. This must lead to a generally higher standard of living, because without such economic reforms the mere transferring of power from Britain to the Indian zemindari, or to the money barons of Calcutta is not going to bring back happiness and prosperity to the Indian people.
  It must be accompanied by a radical policy and economic reform. I believe this will benefit India; it will help to solve the communal problem by binding Muslims and Hindus close together in a common endeavour to improve their economic status. It will also provide us with the market which we need in India. Let us not forget that the loss of the Indian markets before the war was not due at all to the cheapness of Japanese cloth; it was mainly due to the loss of buying power by the people who constituted that particular market. By encouraging a higher standard of living in India we shall be helping ourselves as well.
  I share the wishes of the other speakers in this Debate that we may continue to be on the closest possible relations with India. I believe that in the past we had a common history. The black aspect of it should not be dwelt upon too much by either side. We should get together as closely as possible in our own mutual interests. We must hope that the Indian people in their new experiment will find, not only freedom, but wealth and prosperity, because their wealth and prosperity will also be ours. I hope that my fears of the future will not be justified, and that my forecast will prove to be incorrect, because, as an obscure back-bencher, I have nothing but good will towards this scheme to give freedom, wherever it is tried. But whatever happens—and this, I think, we on this side must remember with pride—it is to the eternal honour of the present Government that they re-
  2498
  jected the principle of exploitation and oppression of one people by another.
  6.59 p.m.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: I am sure that the House has listened with very great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Rusholme (Mr. Hutchinson), whose experiences in India have been manifold. I should like to say that I find myself in entire agreement with almost everything he has said. It seems to me that this tremendous experiment, which is about to be launched, is one of those things which this House is always able to do when it shows its faith and belief. It is, I believe, an act of faith, and even something more, because, after all, it is the first time that the British Commonwealth of Nations has ever invited people, other than white people, to be equal partners in that Commonwealth. That is a tremendous step to take, and it is one which I believe we must all welcome, because peoples in the East are on the move, and they have to find their niche somewhere.
  The association and fellowship in the British Commonwealth is something that can lead the peoples of different colours, races and religions along the common path of economic progress, where we must concentrate less on politics and more on economics, science, health and all those things which would benefit the Indian people. We may also hope that the example of this experiment may possibly be followed by Burma and other countries and that we may see something which will bring stability where at present there is great risk of instability in that part of Asia. The Prime Minister in his opening speech today drew attention to the fact that, in 1909, Mr. Asquith introduced a Bill for the union of South Africa. He used these words which I think are very apposite today:
  "This Imperial Parliament, without distinctionon of party, regards it"—
  that is, the Bill—
  "as one of the greatest steps that has ever been taken in our legislative history. By free concerted action, communities which only a few years ago seemed to be fatally…divided by history, by sentiment and even by interest, all worked together to make this a component part of the British Empire."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th August, 1909; Vol. 9. c. 1657.]
  A tremendous success has resulted from the so-called experiment of that time, and

  2499
  I believe that if we have faith, we can continue to help the peoples in India. As the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed) said, this will be regarded as a great day of fulfilment and the starting point of a new relationship between ourselves and India. But there is one thing which we must remember. Although this Bill will, I am sure, be passed without a Division, and with the strong support of all hon. Members, it will not remove those tremendous problems which are confronting India at present in a way which, perhaps, is not appreciated very generally in this country or, indeed, in Europe. I believe it is absolutely essential that one message should go out from this House to both Pakistan and India; namely, that the administrative difficulties which will confront both those Dominion Governments are such that we ought to be prepared to lend any assistance we can. That assistance should come not only from this country, but, as her sister Dominions, from every other Dominion who will find in this an opportunity, not of trying to usurp the authority which we are giving to these Dominion Governments, but to provide them with that extra experience from the vast resources in the other parts of the Commonwealth which might assist them in agrarian reform, by improving methods of cultivation, in irrigation and in all those things which are so necessary.
  While there are these problems—and there are many—we must not blind ourselves to the fact that great assistance has been given by engineers, missionaries, including women, and by an enormous number of people outside the ranks of government, and that there is still an opportunity for them to continue that kind of work. I think it would be most unfortunate if it were thought that there will not be the same opportunities as have existed in the past for people with the spirit of adventure and knowledge to go out there and help in every way to do what is necessary to raise the standard in India.
  The one great distressing thought which one always has is of the vast mass of people in India who cannot read or writ, the difficulty of communication, and the fact that 50 per cent. of the villages are sometimes cut off from being reached at all. The field is so enormous and the
  2500
  difficulties are so great, and I do not believe that in my lifetime we shall see unity in India. We must accept the situation and, by moving towards the common interest of economic development, strive to remove the difficulties which now divide the people. We have accepted so much help from India in our times of trouble that, whatever may be the difficulties in which India finds herself, there will always be in this country people of good will who would go out there and help. Furthermore, by India becoming two Dominions of the British Commonwealth, we are offering to the Indian people that common citizenship of which we are all so proud, and which will give to those Dominions the status in the world they have so far never had.
  7.7 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: I rise to congratulate the Government on what I think is the most far-reaching Measure that has ever been introduced into this Parliament. It is the result of patient and resolute statesmanship in the face of very great difficulties. The attainment by India of her independence, which she has so long sought, is momentous not only in her own history but in the history of the whole world. Indian self-government was dimly foreseen by Macaulay in 1833. From that date it was accepted as our aim in India, and was first clearly stated in 1917. What India expected of the reforms in 1919, what she hoped for in 1935 and what she demanded in 1942, is now being freely given. I think "given" is probably the wrong word, because we are not giving India freedom. India is attaining it. She has won this freedom.
  This is really an historic moment, for one-fifth of the world's population—400 million—are now getting their political independence. Dominion status has been granted before, but it has always been granted to colonially settled European peoples. This time it is being given to the original native population. To my mind, this is not only the vindication of Empire; it is also the test of Empire. I know there are many people who state that as soon as the British leave India, there will be chaos. Among some sections of the people that is a typical but, to my mind, erroneous assumption of our indis-pensability.
  I feel that, from the Governments that were set up in India after the 1935 Act,

  2501
  the Governments of Mr. Rajagopalachari, of Mr. Khev and of Sir Sikandar Hyat Khan in the Punjab, we have had Indian Governments that have been a credit to India and to our rule in India. One hon. Member said that we are leaving India as we found it. I am sure he must realise that, as we have given to the Provinces all but autonomous governments, to rule themselves democratically, and as they have been able to do that as a result of British rule, within a framework of democratic tradition and history, they are by no means as we found them. The very fact that India is demanding and obtaining self-government is itself a vindication of that part of our rule. We were pledged to India, under the Act of 1858; and, after an attempt at control through a commercial and private empire, we made what by now is a fairly well known decision to nationalise. We pledged ourselves to give equal protection to all religions, and to admit all subjects of the Crown, without regard to race or creed, to all offices and positions, at the same time guaranteeing the rights of the Princes The rights of the Princes have been maintained and in the latest break they are being returned to them. We have given equal protection to all religions. To my mind the step we are now taking is the logical result of carrying through our commitments of 1858 to give to all subjects of the Crown, without regard to race or creed, any office or position.
  I regret that it has come to the partition of India, because one of our achievements in India—an achievement that verges on the miraculous—is that, in a medley of races, creeds, cultures and languages, we have been able to build up any form of unity. It is now going. I deprecate very much that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), who led for the Opposition, even suggested that the reason for the partition of India was the fact that His Majesty's Government laid down this time factor of British withdrawal. I feel that he was rather labouring to gloss over his own party's record of very recent months. He talked of reticence. I can remember no reticence, but one rather disgusting phrase on the day when the Prime Minister announced the new Viceroy's appointment. There were no congratulations to Admiral Lord Mountbatten that day. The congratulations came after Mountbatten carried out
  2502
  his work. If I speak with deep feeling on the matter it is because I was listening carefully that day, and because I happened to have served with Mountbatten in S.E.A.C., and realised that if any man could achieve what was to be achieved in India, it was the man who did what Mountbatten did in Burma, and who did so much in Indonesia.
  I think partition is the logical result of the trend of India's political development-not from this year, but, rather, from 1909, when, with the Morley-Minto reforms, we first took the step of reserving seats for any one particular community. By 1921, when we had the separate communal electorates, we had side tracked unified development, and taken the path of development on communal lines. That has led inevitably to what is happening today. It might have been possible in 1942 to have retained the slender fabric—and I am quoting the words of the right hon. Gentleman—the slender fabric of India's unity. But remember how slender that fabric is. Remember how slender it was in 1942. There was no sign of real Indian unity then, and we may as well face it. The men who are today leading the new Dominion India Government, from 1942 until the end of the war were in prison. There was no national unity in India. The only slogan on which one could get national unity in India was an anti-British slogan.
  Sometimes, as we watch hon. Members paint a historical picture of India, one would think India was a complete paradise. Far from it. When I talk of India I do not talk of Calcutta or Delhi—least of all of Delhi—or Madras, or even Deolali. I think of all India, and of the villages. There is the true India. In India's 750,000 villages, July's torrid heat is pouring down on the parched fields. The villagers are idle for months with nothing to do, and facing the probability of famine in a short time. What does this Bill mean to them? It can mean nothing or it can mean everything. It depends entirely on the Indian leaders who assume control of their people's, destiny. I think of those villages, poor, miserable, filthy, with their festering-fringes on which, throughout India, 40,000,000 live and die, and never know-what it is to be properly fed.
  We are bringing those villagers one hope, the hope of Indian self-rule,

  2503
  because we realise that the difficulties and obstacles that retard Indian progress now can be removed only by Indians. We can no longer legislate social changes as we did in the past. We cannot wipe out untouchability. We cannot wipe out the inferior status of the women of India— or the dirt, the disease, and the poverty. That is something for India's leaders to do. I would say that I hope that India's leaders recognise that fact, and recognise that they are responsible for the ultimate unity of India. War has destroyed India's rather top-heavy economy. There is the danger of famine and there are dangers of industrial strife. Let India's responsible leaders realise that poverty and disease do not discriminate between religious communities. Let them rule in that spirit, the spirit of the people, and this Bill will be a real contribution to India's progress and felicity.
  7.19 p.m.
  Mr. Gammans: I do not want to say very much about the great underlying principles of this Bill, because I want to refer very briefly to one aspect only of it, and that is the future of the domiciled Europeans and the Anglo-Indian community; and I sincerely hope that the Under-Secretary of State, when he comes to reply, will be able to say something about it. I do not think that, on the general question, the views, the hopes and the aspirations of this House could have been better expressed than they were in the sincere and eloquent speech of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed). Today, this House is divesting Great Britain of a charge which has lain upon us for 200 years—the responsibility for the millions of people of India. Whatever may have been our shortcomings during that time, we have given to India what she never had before, and what possibly she may never have again: security from external aggression and freedom from internal anarchy. The trouble is that as we have laid down our charge, we have not been able to hand over to the people of India a united country. When this Bill becomes law, India as we have understood it for the last 200 years, as a political unit, will cease to exist. India from now on will be a geographical expression, like "Europe," "Asia" or "Africa."
  2504
  The only other point I wish to make on the general principles of this Bill is one which has been made by other hon. Members on both sides of the House, namely, to express the hope that the division of India will not go beyond the two Dominions, and that those two Dominions will be able to work together not only for mutual defence, but also in economic matters. Because the price of failure if they do not do so will probably be that at least 40 million people will die. Hon. Members may argue that 40 million people seems an exaggeration. But is it an exaggeration? The population of India has increased by five million net every year. That enormous number of people. many of whom live on a bare level of subsistence anyway, just keep alive because India has been peaceful and united. If the fundamental unity of India is destroyed, or if peace goes, then anything up to 40 million people may die. Not merely by violence—although a good few may die by violence—but simply because the resources of India, divided in this way, will not be sufficient to keep them alive. All we can hope is that those who now control the destinies of India will realise the price of failure if they cannot agree amongst themselves.
  Let me now turn to the Anglo-Indian community, or the Eurasians, as they used to be called. Many of them hope and feel that they can still find a home in India. But many do not. They feel that in the growing tension between Hindu and Mohammedan there will be no place for them, and that, in fact, there will be active discrimination against them. Their religion, their culture, their food and their way of life differ fundamentally from those of the two great religious communities of India. The point I wish to make is that these people are our kith and kin, and we have a special responsibility towards them. In the early days of the East India Company, European soldiers were encouraged to marry Indian women by the gift of a cash bonus, and it is largely from those marriages that the Anglo-Indian community has come.
  What does the Anglo-Indian community ask for? As I said just now, some of them are quite content to remain. They are asking for several things. Some are asking that they should be allowed to form a homeland of their own in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Now, I know the

  2505
  difficulties. The Anglo-Indian community is predominantly urban, and if they went to live in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands most of them would have to earn their living on the land. Incidentally, I hope the Under-Secretary of State will tell us what is to be the future of the Andamans and the Nicobars. They are in no sense a part of India, and I should have thought that the Minister of Defence would have felt that the retention of these Islands, at any rate for the time being, under the direct control of this country, was essential for our Imperial defence. Another possible solution for the Anglo-Indian community problem is that they should settle in one of the other great Dominions. I believe some of them have already approached Australia, and I am wondering whether His Majesty's Government in this country can tell us if they have done anything to approach the Government of Australia with regard to the settlement of these people there.
  And what about settlement for them in this country? Many of these people are highly skilled technical men and women; and at a time when we are told there is a shortage of manpower in this country I believe a home could be found for some of them here. There is also a great shortage of high technical skill in Malaya. Could we not find some means whereby they could go there. Many members of the Anglo-Indian community have specialised in work on the railways, and in the telegraph services. Cannot we find some openings for them in the Colonial Service throughout the Empire? Will any effort be made by His Majesty's Government in this country to satisfy their legitimate aspirations, or are they to be told that they must fend for themselves, and that we wash our hands of them? Here is a community which has stood by us in good times and in bad: a community whose loyalty to the Crown has never been questioned. If they feel they can find a home in India, no one wants to disturb them. But if, for any reason, they wish to go elsewhere, I say it would be a shameful and a disgraceful act if we were just to abandon them, and make no attempt whatsoever to find them a new home.
  7.26 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Reid: Unfortunately, I have been unavoidably absent from the first two hours of the Debate, so I
  2506
  cannot go over the ground covered by the first speakers. In fact, I had not intended to speak at all until I heard the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Hutchinson). He stated that we have divided India, and reduced India to a position similar to that obtaining when we took over India from the great Mogul Empire. I am sorry ?to have to say this, but I think those two statements constitute a travesty of the facts, and are entirely inaccurate. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) pointed out, quite rightly, that we have established almost autonomous democratic Provincial Governments in India, which did not exist under the Mogul Empire. And India is not in the state of chaos that she was in during the decline of the Mogul Empire. As for dividing India, it is an absolutely false charge of which to accuse us. Even Mr. Gandhi stated publicly the other day in India that the present Viceroy did everything in his power to preserve the unity of India, but was forced to accept the principle of partition because the people of India had divided India.
  The same is true of the Princes. Some of them have already decided to set up independent States. We did not incite them to make that declaration. We did not divide India. I have argued this question inside my party for the last 12 years or so, on our Imperial Committee and I can assure the House that not a member of that Committee—most of whom had experience of India or Colonies—ever suggested anything in the nature of a splitting up of India into Hindustan and Pakistan. To a man, we were in favour of a united India. All along, the Labour Party has been in favour of a united India. But, quite wisely, our Government said that the people of India must decide this great issue, and not we.
  There has been some talk about the despotism of the States. The position of the States is that they were always independent States, except that they allowed their foreign policy to be managed through the Viceroy, and now that the paramountcy powers are to be withdrawn they will be completely independent States. I deny the suggestion that these States are despotic. Anyone who knows India knows that in the bigger States they have their Parliaments, their Legislature and Ministers,

  2507
  It is perfectly true, that they are not democratic States, but if hon. Members went to the State of Mysore they would come away with this question in mind: Was there, or is there, any part of India better administered than Mysore? I deprecate this easy talk, running down the Princes, or of interfering in their affairs.
  The hon. Member for Rusholme asked: Are the British Government going to enter into commitments to repress risings in these States? Why suggest there may be risings? Why incite people to indulge in rising by making such suggestions? It is for the peoples of these States, which are independent States, to decide whether or not they want democracy. I hope, for my part, that they will throw in their lot with the Governments of India. Anyone who knows the position of these States, realises that in many respects they depend economically, politically and in other ways on the rest of India. Like the rest of India, the States will do what they deem right, if they are not interfered with from this end, and if they are allowed to carry out their own wishes.
  The hon. Member stated that the problem of India is essentially an economic one. I have read many books on India written by experts, and I have met people who have lived in India all their lives, and I have never met anyone who does not say that the fundamental problem in India is a religious problem. This new-fangled idea of explaining everything as an economic problem is a travesty of human nature. I know that our great Foreign Secretary, in trying to rehabilitate Europe, realises that the religious, political and other divisions are so great that the only hope of getting nations to work together is to proceed on an economic basis. He is trying to get people to work together on an economic basis, who otherwise would not co-operate, and I entirely agree with that policy, and hope the same thing can be done in India, to get these people, divided by race and religion, to cooperate economically lest they be destroyed by famine. But human nature is not guided by economics alone. Economics are not the key to human nature.
  My hon. Friend said that the average income in India is about £4 10s. a year,
  2508
  I have considerable knowledge of Indian statistics, and I can assure the House that they are not very reliable. In that huge sub-continent, it is impossible to get the staff to work out correct statistics, although they are fairly correct. Whatever the annual income of the people may be, it is not £4 10s. per head—that is absolutely wrong. The annual income is certainly more than that, but I do not know what it is exactly nor does anyone else.
  My hon. Friend began to lecture Indians on what they should do by way of radical economic and agricultural reforms and the rest of it. These are matters to be left to the Indian people and to the new Governments, and the less we in this House interfere and advise the better. On the other hand, I listened with the greatest pleasure to the speech of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed). It is very fortunate that this House has amongst its Members a man so deeply versed in Indian politics during his lifetime, and with a progressive outlook at the same time. His speeches on India have been most valuable. One thing he said, with which I entirely agree, was that whatever we do, we should not enter into commitments with Indian States, or with the Indian Governments, or anyone else, which we cannot fulfil. I consider that to be extremely sound advice. I do not know what commitments the Government intend to enter into with the two Dominions, but I hope that this advice will be borne in mind, not only in regard to India, but also in the case of Burma.
  The statesmanship of the Labour Government in the management of this Indian problem has been superb; it has been statesmanship of the highest order. Can hon. Members deny the wisdom and the foresight of the Labour Government in dealing with this formidable problem? What would have happened if we had tried to hang on to the governance of India and to continue our rule? How many divisions of troops should we have to have there at the present time? What chaos and disorder would we have caused, and what bitter memories should we have left behind when we eventually had to leave India? As I have said, the policy and statesmanship of the Labour Government have been of the highest order,

  2509
  Although the vast majority of the people of this country do not understand the intricacies of the Indian problem, practically all men and women in this country are behind the Government in their policy, simply because the tradition of our race is to spread liberty throughout the Empire, and because the people of this country have an instinct for doing the right thing. Whatever they may or may not know of this terrible problem, I suggest that they are entirely behind the Government.
  I do not intend to try to lecture India. It is for the Indians to decide these matters for themselves. I know, apart from the religious and other differences, there are great differences among the people in India. Some are very pacific, and others are very warlike. I know there is a danger, which has been referred to of a breaking up of internal peace in the future, but as a back bencher and lover of India, and as one who knows India, I want to send this message to my friends out there: It takes all sorts to make a world, and pacific people and warlike peoples are both needed. Each have their merits, and their defects, and to those who are thinking of starting violence in India, I would pass on the great words of John Milton:
  "Peace hath her victories
  No less renown'd than war."
  I hope that this message will be heard in India.
  There is no other country in the world which could have done what we have clone in our recent dealings with India. Both sides of this great House of Commons welcome this enormous transfer of power. It could not have happened anywhere else. In any other country parties would have been divided, with some wishing to quit India, and others wishing to stay. We have a united House of Commons approving this great act of independence for India. In spite of the enormous difficulties ahead, and in spite of the awful religious problem, and the population problem referred to by the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans), which is a formidable one—the population during British rule having increased from 150 million to over 400 million—we sincerely hope that the new Governments of India will make a success of this great experiment. 'My last words are: "Advance India."
  7.39 p.m.
  Brigadier Low: The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid) has done a lot of my work for me. He has correctly dealt with a lot of the inaccuracies put forward by some of his hon. Friends. Quite naturally, he has not tackled one of the inaccuracies, made, I think, by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), who made such a bitter attack on my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan). He seemed to think that we on this side of the House were entirely illogical in supporting this Measure, because we voted against the Government on 20th February. It has always seemed to me, since 3rd June, that this new scheme of the Government is proof of the badness of the scheme of 20th February Be that as it may, I do not intend to go into the past. I have always made it clear that I have believed in the fulfilment of India's independence, to use a phrase of my right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed).
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Of the Prime Minister.
  Brigadier Low: And of the Prime Minister. My position is quite clear. The distinguishing mark of the scheme which is to be enacted in the Bill is that what was British India is to enter the British Commonwealth with full status as two Dominions. The importance of the Bill is not confined to the fact that it represents the end of the responsibility of the British people for affairs in India and creates for the people of India a framework within which, if it is used wisely and if they so wished, the Indian people can achieve unity as well as independence; it is important because it is the first occasion on which we have handed independence to a non-European people to govern themselves. Whatever we may say now, it may well form a precedent in subsequent years when we come to do the same generous, unselfish act to other peoples whose interests we now look after.
  The Bill is important for one other reason. It allows for the inclusion in the British Commonwealth of what are known as the Indian States. They were not in the Commonwealth before. The Bill allows their inclusion without any decision about their application for mem-

  2511
  bership being reached by the present full-status members of the Commonwealth. I think it is true to say that we allow those States to come into our Commonwealth as full members of the Dominions only with the permission of India and Pakistan. That may be a precedent for the future. I make no comment upon it, but I think it is a departure from anything we have thought of before. The Bill is important not only to Britain and India, but to the whole of the Commonwealth. It is upon the Commonwealth aspect that I particularly wish to concentrate this evening.
  I will, first, deal with the question of defence. There is no doubt in my mind that the inevitable splitting up of the Indian Army into two, alters the balance of strategic manpower throughout our great Commonwealth. This is a matter which His Majesty's Government obviously have faced. I am concerned a little that the names adopted for the two Dominions, "India" and "Pakistan" may have upon the unifying force of the Indian Army an effect which is not intended by any of the leaders in India. In the past, recruits to the Indian Army have been taught, "We are Indians; we are not Muslims or Hindus." Largely because of that teaching, communal differences have been kept out of the Army. A Frontier Force, Punjabi Muslim rifleman was taught to think that he was an Indian. From 15th August such soldiers as he will be taught to think of themselves as members of Pakistan, and not of India. I do not know whether that is a point which has occurred to His Majesty's Government. I do not want to spend a long time on the point or to attach too much importance to it, but it is a tragedy that a part of India should have taken to itself the name of the whole. It is a tragedy because it will have some influence in later years on the chances of India's becoming unified again. I am not too much of an idealist to realise that the chances of unity in the immediate future are not great. Therefore, unifying forces that exist should be kept undepleted and unhindered, as far as possible.
  In his opening statement, the Prime Minister told us that British formations and units would be withdrawn from India as soon as possible after 15th
  2512
  August. I should like to know, tonight if possible—there may be another stage of the discussion when the question can be answered—under whose operational command British troops will be after 15th August, between that date and the time when they leave India? This is of much greater importance than just the words "operational command" might signify to Members of the House.
  My last point relates to the influence of the Bill upon Commonwealth defence. I hope that the new Dominions will appreciate that we in the British Commonwealth all have a part to play towards our common defence. I hope that they will, as soon as possible after 15th August, help us and the other Dominions to do all we can together to repair the damage to the balance which will have been upset by the splitting of the Indian forces. There are great problems, which it is not right that we should tackle now. No doubt the Minister of Defence will notify us about them at a later stage. We must be alive to the fact that calling Pakistan and India Dominions is not the end of the matter. It means that they have not only rights but duties towards the sister members of this great British Commonwealth.
  The other matter is this question of the States. I agree that it will be in the interests of India and of the British Commonwealth if as many States as feel so inclined join one or other of the two Dominions. I hope that hon. Members in general will agree that it is an inherent right of any of those States to stay apart as an independent entity if they so wish. If they have the capability of looking after themselves, I hope that His Majesty's Government will not close their eyes to the possibility of a special relationship between them and the rest of the British Commonwealth. I quite understand the importance of no obligations being undertaken which we cannot fulfil, but that argument is carried too far if we say that just because a large part of India, say Hyderabad, is land-locked, it could never form part of the British Empire, under any system whatsoever. What about Southern Rhodesia? Can that never be a Dominion? That argument seems to me to be nonsense, and it should not be carried to such a length as my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury seemed willing to carry it. To say

  2513
  that we cannot have a weak country in the British Commonwealth if it is a long way away seems quite nonsense. If we look round the Empire, what about Malta? On that principle we should never have had Malta in the British Commonwealth and we should get rid of it quickly. The argument does not seem to add up at all. But I say again that it does not mean that I am out to encourage any of the Indian States, who have been so loyal to us and to India, to stay apart from those two Dominions
  We in this country respect the wishes of the independent States. But I am a little troubled lest on 15th August we may find that some of these States, who have deserved well of us, are placed in a weaker position than they would have been if we had never had paramountcy. I am thinking particularly of any State which happens to have in it the armed forces of what will then be a strange and foreign Government. Take the example of the State of Hyderabad. In Secunderabad there must be about a division of troops under the orders of the Government of India. I hope we shall hear that these troops will be withdrawn, at least as quick as British troops are being withdrawn from the Dominions of India and Pakistan. I consider it important and right that in this interim period we should make the necessary arrangements to see that this happens. It is a duty which we owe to the Ruler and people of Hyderabad.
  The last point I wish to make is in connection with the pledges which I was glad to hear the Prime Minister give to the Secretary of State's servants and the Government of India's servants. I am sure the House was glad to hear that at last those pledges really had been given, but we must not be led away by pleasure at hearing those pledges, and in seeing Clause 10 of the Bill, without analysing the position very carefully. Those pledges are all very well, but if they amount to nothing the people to whom they have been given should realise it. I except for the moment what the Prime Minister said about a lump sum, but I would point out that Clause 10 does not create any rights which can be enforced in any court in any part of the world. I think that is the true position, and although I realise the difficulties I think it is right to point that out in case these magnificent servants, who have been so loyal to this
  2514
  country and to India, should think they have something more than they have, in fact, got.
  There will be other chances of discussing other parts of this Bill, and I regret very much that we should be so rushed. I know the difficulties, but it is sad that in so great a task as we have undertaken, in handing Dominion status to the peoples of India, we should not have the time we require to scrutinise the scheme. For my part, I shall try to make the best use of the available time. The price of failure to India is ghastly to imagine, and I am sure that on all sides of the House we hope that in the two or three days' Debate we shall have we shall be able to do everything we can not only to see that there is no failure in India, but that the relationship between this country and India prospers as it has done in the past.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Wyatt (Birmingham, Aston): I was a little disappointed to hear that the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low) was so deeply concerned about the fate of the Indian States. I always regarded him as having not only a wide knowledge of India but a very progressive approach to this problem, and I would like to deal with some of the points he made in a few moments. First, may I say that I agree with those who said that there are great difficulties which are not solved by this Bill? At the same time, I believe it to be the most remarkable Bill ever presented in a free Parliament. One cannot begin to discuss its terms without pausing to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who have played so large a part in these events during the last two years and, of course, their advisers. In particular, one must congratulate Lord Mountbatten whose brilliant handling of the situation has smoothed over so many problems. By his initiative and energy he has always kept just one length ahead of situations which threatened breakdowns and has succeeded.
  One must also recognise the great efforts of the Indian leaders themselves. As the hour for British departure approached, they suddenly rose to great heights and sank their prejudices for the common good. It must have caused great pain to Mr. Gandhi, after his life-

  2515
  long struggle, to see the division of India. It has been his noblest act to restrain the annoyance he must have felt, and to refrain from provoking the agitation in India which his undoubtedly great influence could have caused. It is not altogether surprising that some of the vexation and irritation he must have felt should have flowed over in the North-West Frontier Province, where he has, unfortunately, encouraged Ghaffar Khan to work for an independent Pathan State. In all these events of the last few months, Mr. Jinnah has also shown a praiseworthy restraint in not demanding the wider boundaries on which his heart had been set.
  Having said that, I ask, what is the situation which this Bill creates? First, it leaves two major problems entirely unsolved: the problems of the States and the Sikhs. I have always. felt that we should have brought more pressure to bear on the rulers of the States during the last two years to give their peoples a greater share in the government of their States. The worst thing we ever did in India was to take away from the peoples of the States the ultimate sanction that a people always have against a bad Ruler —the sanction of revolt and rebellion. By our guarantee to the Rulers of the States, that provided they did not annoy us, or interfere in our broad policies, we would protect them, we have prevented the peoples from having that sanction. During the last two years, we might have done more to strip the Rulers of their power and force them to associate more directly with the rest of India.
  Mr. Molson: That is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. It is because we guaranteed the Rulers against revolt in their States that we always insisted on a certain standard of good administration in those States.
  Mr. Wyatt: My experience has been very different from that of the hon. Member. In all the researches I have been able to conduct, and the discussions I have had with members of the Political Department of the Government of India, the only grounds I discovered on which the Ruler of a State has ever been removed has been for the most appalling and outrageous immorality. Rarely has it been a question of whether the State has been governed properly. I do not
  2516
  think anybody could advance a single argument to show that one large State in India had a democratic constitution.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: What the hon. Gentleman has just said is a very serious charge against hundreds of years of policy. Does he mean to say that the whole power of the Political Department and authority of the Government of India has not been consistently used to secure that any Ruler who was maladministering his State, or not looking after the interests of his people, should not either be warned or finally removed?
  Mr. Wyatt: I most emphatically say that it has been the policy of the Political Department of the Government of India not to remove the Ruler of any State unless his policies conflicted with the policies of British India, or his behaviour was in some way socially scandalous or flagrantly improper. It has never been because of failure to provide for democratic government in the State.
  The cessation of paramountcy which is provided for in this Bill does something in the right direction. It is difficult when a. speedy change over is being made to alter things more rapidly with treaties already in existence. As the pressure was not brought earlier, what we have done is the best thing possible. I would urge upon Indians, who feel that we should have done more in connection with the States, that it would have been very dangerous to have provoked the Rulers too far with all the other difficult negotiations that have been in progress during the past two years. But I feel most strongly that the Government should now make a very blunt public statement to the States that their duty lies with the rest of India, and they should make it quite clear to them that they cannot count on any help from Britain in the case of external aggression after 15th August. I think that the Prime Minister might have gone a little further in this direction this afternoon than he did.
  Brigadier Low: Would the hon. Gentleman carry that so far as to refuse support in the Security Council or the Assembly of U.N.0. if such an event happened. If there was unprovoked aggression on one of these States and the matter was brought before them, would he not then give His Majesty's Government support there?
  Mr. Wyatt: I think that is a hypothetical question which could be avoided by the policy which I have just advocated. I would urge this on the Government because I feel that, even at this late hour, some Princes have the mistaken impression that British backing might be available in the years to come. I know that it is not true. But they must be disillusioned of that belief now. This belief that the British are to be permanently in India dies very hard, even after the passage of such a Bill as this. It was wrong of Travancore and Hyderabad to divorce themselves from the Union of India. But in the broad sweep of history the fact remains that whoever has the power in Delhi has the power over the Indian States, who economically and in almost every other way are dependent on the rest of India. If strong movements for freedom do develop now in the States they cannot be resisted, and those on the Left Wing in India should realise that the States do in fact hang like ripe plums for the picking. This is not the moment to provoke unnecessary conflict and quarrels between the rest of India and the States. Mr. Patel, the Congress Leader, realised that in his wise declaration last Monday when he offered them cooperation and not domination.
  The Sikhs are in a different category. Scattered throughout the Punjab, nowhere in a majority in any single district, they are naturally anxious to preserve their independent entity, but the border line at present envisaged between Pakistan and India runs right through the middle of them. Really their place is in Pakistan where they could all live together in one community and not be separated by a boundary line between two States. It would be in their interest to stay there, and it would also be in the interest of Congress because then there would be a strong and fearless element in Pakistan which would be in support of close cooperation between the two countries. One must in all fairness to the Sikhs point out that they have already behaved with very great tolerance and calmness, which is unusual and very difficult for them, in the position in which they find themselves, and I hope that they may be able to reach accommodation with Mr. Jinnah and that he will have the foresight to meet them more than half way. It will be the duty of our present Viceroy to watch their interest very
  2518
  closely in the next two months because they have more claim on our good offices than any other single community in India.
  Another danger spot in the coming years will be the North-West Frontier Province. Although the Congress campaign for an independent State will have no effect at all in the present referendum, if proceeded with it will gain increasing support and raise difficult problems of the defence of the Afghanistan frontier. It would encourage Afghanistan to repeat the ridiculous claims which have recently been so rightly rejected.
  Now I would like to turn to the most significant part of the Bill for this country, that part which establishes two new Dominions. The fact of two new Dominions being created in India is due almost entirely to the honesty and integrity with which the Labour Government have approached India during the last two years. So much of the suspicions of the past have gone away that India itself feels confident that it is worth her while for the present at least to come into the Commonwealth. The right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) evidently does not realise that if we make a country a Dominion and give it its independence it is useless to tell it that it must give guarantees as to how it will treat the Scheduled classes, and deal with other internal matters of that kind, because once a country is a Dominion it must be clearly understood that it is free from all external pressure. It is no good assuming, like the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans), that it is our job to look after the Anglo-Indians once we have gone. I was surprised, too, to hear his remarks in view of the work which Frank Anthony has done for the Anglo-Indians in the last four or five years to assimilate his community with the rest of India.
  What are the chances of these two new Dominions staying in the Commonwealth ? There can be no doubt that the Muslim League will wish to remain in the Commonwealth. It will seem to them to be an added guarantee of their security against possible encroachments from the rest of India. It will commend itself to them because of the ties between Muslims and British of recent years, and in particular they will want it because they cannot

  2519
  develop their country by themselves. Their need of administrators and technicians is so great that they will feel that this is their best chance of getting them and keeping them. Not unnaturally they will also want considerable aid in organising and equipping their Army. Congress, on the other hand, has a long tradition of separatism in every possible form from the British. But it has become clear to their administrators during the last year that there are great advantages for them in staying in the commonwealth. It will be a counterpoise against a Pakistan which is in association with the Commonwealth, and it will give them security in the world. Nevertheless, they will want to drop the title of Dominion fairly soon, and we must make ready for that time now and devise another arrangement and other terms for permanent association between a wholly independent State and the British Commonwealth of Nations. We have devised more difficult things than that before and it will be a solution in the end for India if Congress is finally brought by pressure of their own rank and file to drop the title of Dominion. It may also provide a solution for Burma. The over-riding advantage of these two countries being in the Commonwealth is that indirectly the unity of India is preserved by this joint association and it will give opportunity for inter-governmental committees to function more widely and efficiently. The alien barriers that might otherwise have been there will not be present, and in due course Pakistan and India will be divided only in name.
  That Lord Mountbatten has decided to remain Governor-General of India although Mr. Jinnah will be Governor-General of Pakistan, is going to be of great assistance in forging the ties between Britain and the two new States. It was a difficult choice for Lord Mountbatten to make and it was a great compliment from Congress, and it will undoubtedly be a great service to India and to Britain. His presence during the coming months is going to be invaluable, particularly as he will remain Chairman of the all-important Defence Committee and the Partition Council. I feel very strongly that his example is one which ought to be followed by all other British officials in India who are asked to stay in any
  2520
  capacity. Emotionally and practically, their task may be a difficult one, but they have got a great function to perform of helping the new States to start off on a sound basis and in helping to reduce the violence of the inevitable conflicts which will come.
  In having two Indias there is a natural weakening of India as a whole, but the fact that there are two Indias may in itself be partly desirable, because it will lead to a spirit of emulation between the two. One will try to better the other in efficiency and in prosperity. But in any case, it is our duty to help and assist them and to make it clear to India that we are their friends. At the moment there is a very serious misunderstanding about the sterling balances, and an hon. Member in this House the other day contemptuously asked what worthy part India had played in the war and what it had paid in cash towards it. It paid in consumer goods, in inflation, in famine, in blood and sweat, and as well paid in cash. India was a base for Allied operations in Africa, in the Middle East and in the Far East, as well as the base for the defence of India, and it was vital to allied Far Eastern strategy.
  On the system of accountancy set up India has paid a total bill in cash of £2,500 million, but by arrangement between the two Governments it was decided that half would be charged for the exclusive defence of India. which is only a fair proportion. India has not got that money. We have had all the money and we ought to give them their half. We may not be able to pay her that money back, at any rate not yet, but it would be most disgusting hypocrisy to say that India has no moral validity in her claim for the money, particularly when India was brought into the war without being consulted. I urge the Chancellor in the negotiations which are going on at present that if we are going to have to scale this amount down not to say that we are going to scale it down because India has no right to the money. If we cannot pay we must say, "We are very sorry we cannot pay. Will you let us off something?" That would be more frank and more appreciated, because nothing can be worse for our future relations with India than dishonesty at this stage.

  2521
  There are difficult times ahead in India. We have already secured this new stage which is something that amounts to a landmark in history. With India allied to us there is going to be a great bulwark for peace in the Far East. More than that a unique link has already been forged between the East and the West across which friendship will pass to the benefit not only of ourselves but of the world.
  The Indian people themselves have got great struggles ahead of them to raise themselves from the level of poverty in which we have had to leave them. It is up to us to do all we can to help in that advance, and if we can do it and help the progressive and democratic elements in India that country may provide an example to the whole world. Their problem is very much the same as that of the Russians at the end of the last war. The Russians had to adopt revolutionary and totalitarian methods to raise their standard of living, and they did achieve a fair measure of success. We have left traditions of democracy and liberty in India, and if they can advance with those principles the Indians will prove to the world that it is possible to raise a poverty stricken economy to a higher standard of prosperity without dictatorship. This Government have given them as fair a start as possible during the last two years. May they go on and take their place amongst the nations as a strong and peaceful Power.
  8.15 p.m.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: The hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) has a completely fallacious idea of the majority of the larger Indian independent States. He also has the extraordinary fallacy deep in his mind that the whole of the world is bursting to refresh itself with the fruits of democracy. We believe in democracy here, but there are large areas of the world which do not. Very large areas in India are undoubtedly affected in that way. We have got to be certain that we are dealing with the States fairly and justly as far as we are able to without accusing them of despotism and of all the wrongs which bad States do, because I think that is as unfair as it is untrue. In the few minutes at my disposal I want to try to show
  2522
  why I support this Bill, because in the circumstances it is probably as good a plan as could be drawn up. The circumstances should have been very different. We would not have got ourselves into this position had the situation been more carefully and thoughtfully handled.
  There are two points which I should like to emphasise, and both are of the greatest importance. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) has already touched upon the question of the depressed classes or the Scheduled Castes. There is a glaring omission from this Bill, because it says nothing at all about these people. Up to now we have taken upon ourselves the care of the depressed classes of India. In 1858, which has been referred to as the great occasion when Queen Victoria made her declaration taking over the Indian Government, she said in wonderful words:
  "We hold ourselves bound to the natives of our Indian territories by the same obligations which bind us to all our other subjects, and this obligation by the blessing of Almightly God we shall faithfully and conscientiously fulfil."
  Yet this Bill, I am afraid, finally dashes the hopes of these depressed classes, because we are handing them over literally to their age-long enemies from whose oppression we have kept them for so many years. We have got to realise that the Hindu caste system is one of the most tightly bound and elaborate systems in the world. However well intentioned it may have been in the past, it is, in effect, probably the cruellest system ever invented by human beings. We are handing back these people whom we rescued from this system, to a large extent to their age-long enemies from whom they will have no redress at all. The obvious suggestion is that being the lowest grade of labourers they have only to withhold their labour and the higher castes will come into line at once. At present that is obviously not practical politics because they have no real form of organisation, nor have they the will, the energy or the vigour behind them to organise for such a purpose. The only hope of justice, of status, or even of decent human kindness for these people has come from the protection and interest of the white man and the Government which he has imposed on that country. That has now gone, I am afraid, or will be when this Bill takes effect.

  2523
  The second point I want to emphasise is the question of the Indian Army. If I may speak with diffidence as a professional soldier, I feel it is most desperately important that this should be gone into most carefully. In general, to start with, we have to realise that the division of the Indian Army into two will mean, I am afraid—there is no use in burking the issue—the complete breakdown of the one stable and dependable organisation in India today. We all know that in two great world wars the Indian Army has done truly magnificent work, and we know that in time of peace, even in the most desperately bitter communal strife, the great Indian Army has stood firm and has refused to join in and instead has loyally served its country.
  One thing, and one thing only, is responsible for that great state of affairs, and it is the presence, the training, the influence and the devotion of British officers. There is nothing derogatory to the Indian Army, officers or men, in saying that. Every Indian officer I have met in all my service has always agreed with that statement. It is far from derogatory—it is a fact. Now under this Bill that one unifying influence is going. Clause II says:
  "…the Governor-General under the…provisions of this Act shall make provision for the division of the Indian armed forces…"
  There is no doubt about it that when that Clause comes into effect this great, well-trained, loyal, devoted and efficient force will literally fall apart into communal spheres, Muslim, and Hindu, from which it has always been preserved hitherto.
  From the defence point of view, take a look at the map of Pakistan. One realises what a hopeless situation it is to think that one can defend militarily the State of Pakistan. There will probably be a poorly-officered, poorly-trained and poorly-equipped army for an impossible defence problem. Could one have a worse combination? I think not. One might say, "Who will replace, and how are we to replace, the high-ranking officers who have been responsible for the command and training of these great forces?" What have we coming along among the Indian officers today to replace army commanders, corps commanders, and divisional commanders, without going any lower? Is it really fair, when it takes 40 years to make a commander-in-chief,
  2524
  to suggest that an Indian officer with perhaps seven or eight or even 10 years' service can take over, militarily, jobs of that description? It is asking for trouble, and I am afraid that if this is gone on with on these lines, speaking militarily, only disaster can follow.
  I now come to another important problem for the Indian Army—the question of the Gurkhas. There is a very great problem here. I have so far been able to get no pronouncement from the Government on the subject of the Gurkhas. The only thing we have seen with anything like even a semi-official flavour to it is a quotation from the Calcutta paper, "The Statesman." Here we have a martial race with, whether we like it or not, a strong dislike of the Indians. They have given nearly 100 years of loyalty to the British Crown, not to the Indian Government, and we have given them repeated promises. The last I can remember, given by that great Viceroy, Lord Linlithgow, was that at no time should the Gurkhas of the Indian Army be called upon to serve other than under British officers. The Gurkhas believed the word of the British Government to that effect, but now we have this article in the "The Statesman" of 14th June headed "Indian Officers for Gurkha Battalions." It comes from New Delhi. Perhaps I may quote it briefly:
  "It is understand that a start will be made soon in posting Indian officers to Gurkha battalions of the Indian Army…The departure from tradition is a sequel to the recent negotiations between the Government of India and the Nepal Government. The latter have expressed their willingness to continue to lend Gurkhas for employment in the Indian Army."
  Right or wrong, that statement is the only one which the Gurkha knows anything about, and that has gone right through all the 20 or 30 battalions of the Gurkha Brigade and has set those gallant little men on edge. They see that with the New Delhi imprint on it. Rightly or wrongly, that is all they have had and no statement has come from the Government to say whether that is what is to be done or not. I think it is grossly unfair to these loyal men that they should not be told the truth. The Maharajah of Nepal has possibly given his agreement that his men should serve in the Indian Army. That is perfectly right, why should he not? But it should not be the Gurkhas now serving

  2525
  in the Indian Army who should be translated into the new Indian Army under Indian officers; they have a direct pledge from the British that they will not be passed under Indian officers, and if we cannot use those men ourselves as Imperial troops—goodness knows, we want them badly enough—those units should be disbanded with great honour and great praise, and then, if they wish, they can volunteer for the new Indian Army. But the pledge is at present that they shall not serve under any except British officers, and I think it is up to us to see that that is carried out. It should be perfectly clear, either in the Bill or in a Schedule to the Bill, that the Gurkha is being specifically excluded from transference to the Indian Army against his wish.
  In conclusion, I would ask the Minister, when he replies, if he will tell us something about this, because it is highly overdue. It is only fair that these people should know where they stand. We are desperately short of men in the British Army and these Gurkhas are very keen to serve with us. Did ever a Government have a simpler problem to solve than that? Twelve months' service for a British recruit means that he cannot serve overseas, except possibly in Germany. He cannot be an efficient soldier anyway. Why not use these people for our Imperial commitments overseas? They would be grateful, they would be glad to keep with us, and we honestly should be glad to have them. I beg the Government to go into that very carefully and see if a statement cannot be made, and made very quickly. It is an easy problem when they are up against so many tremendously difficult problems, I think that these loyal men are entitled to hear what their fate is to be, and that it shall be in accordance with the pledge which we British have given them.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. Gallacher: In all my reading of history I have never known of a people who battled so hard for freedom and who have shown so little enthusiasm and so much distrust and suspicion as we have seen about this so-called solution of the Indian problem. Nobody can deny that. Not anywhere is there any enthusiasm for this plan. I hear so much said about how noble we are in making this gesture
  2526
  to India, but what was there left to us to do? We do not want to go back into the past, but we can go back a quarter of a century when a well known Tory— Joynson-Hicks as he was at the time—at a great Tory gathering could declare, "We have won India by the sword, and by the sword we will hold it." But the time was reached when we could not hold it. The right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) in the most fulsome language—I have never heard anything like it—has sung the praises of the English people. I was beginning to feel quite buoyant and uplifted, but then I remembered that the engineers, the miners, the railwayman and the transport workers had nothing to do with ruling India, so that they did not come into the picture which was painted by the right hon. Member for Bromley. He was talking about his 'own kind of people. But as he was describing all the wonderful things we had done for India a question kept hammering in my head—if we had been doing so much for the Indian people, if we had been so concerned about their welfare, why, instead of asking us to get out, were they not begging us to remain?
  An hon. Member on this side of the House was cheered to the echo by the other side when he said that the fundamental thing in India was religion. Utter nonsense. He made a sneer about economics and that was also cheered by the other side. But let anyone tell me that story about India and I will ask them why it is after 300 years of association with Britain that the caste system remains, and the untouchables are still there. The answer is very simple, and it is not religious, but economic. While our traders were taking fortunes out of India, we were deliberately holding back the economic development of that great country. That is why the caste system is there. When all the great developments were taking place throughout the world, why was it that in a country like India with enormous natural resources and terrific manpower there was no industrial development? That is the crux of the matter.
  This Measure is an advance, a very good advance on what has been taking place in India, though the partitioning of India is a very dangerous development. I do not accept the statement that the people are responsible for partition any more than the people of Ireland were re-

  2527
  sponsible for the partition of Ireland. The people to blame in that case were the people here and in Northern Ireland, who were running backwards and forwards from Northern Ireland to London and London to Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I must remind the hon. Member that we are discussing India.
  Mr. Gallacher: I was just making an illustration. The same applies in connection with India. The ruling class here with their kindred in India must take responsibility. Now, as a result of the partition, there are hopes among the ruling classes of this country that they can make a deal with the Princes of India, with big business in India and with reaction generally in India so that they can still hold power in India, not directly as before, but indirectly through capital investments and financial connections. I wish to warn this House and the Government. Mention was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley of Afghanistan, which, although he did not mention it, is claiming the North-West Frontier. That is not so serious as another claim that is being made, a claim which this country will find it difficult to face. Now that there is partition, and now that an effort will be made to build up all kinds of financial connections, we have to face the fact that our very dear friends in America, so dear that this country cannot afford them, have their greedy eyes on India, and have already appointed a special committee to make contact with India and to develop financial relations with India, in view of the weakened position which Britain now occupies there. That is a serious situation from the point of view of this country, and it arises from the unstable position that exists in India.
  The partition of India creates a very dangerous situation for India and for this country, and it will be a bad and dangerous situation for the masses of the people in India, whether they are Mohammedans or Hindus. The one hope for the future of India is Congress, the great party of the Indian people that embraces Hindus and Mohammedans. Of course it does, although there is such a powerful agitation going on to keep the Mohammedans separated from the Hindus. The fact of the matter is that
  2528
  a considerable section of Mohammedans are associated with Congress and with its work, and it it was not for the powerful agitation that has been continuously maintained in order to keep these divisions, there would be little trouble in getting the masses of the Mohammedans associated with the Hindus in the Congress movement. I am convinced that the future of India and the relations of this country with India will be determined by the Congress Party and our relations with it, and with the Indian Government, as distinct from Pakistan and the Princely States.
  Congress has a big responsibility, as have all associated with Congress. It is their task at the earliest possible moment to heal the wounds that exist in India, to unite the people and to find the necessary means to develop the economic resources of the country. If those economic resources are developed Hindu and Mohammedan will work together in industry, they will join together in the trade unions, they will build up together the co-operatives and the Labour movement. Time and time again, at one period in this country, we had terrific fights between the religious factions, incited by all kinds of evil and vicious-minded influences.
  But with the development of industrialism, with the building up of the working class movement in the factories, in the towns and the villages, that gradually disappeared and a new unity appears among the working class people. So it will be in India. While I recognise that this Bill provides a considerable step forward, I call upon the Congress Party of India to bring all its influence and power to bear in ending all the feuds that have existed in the country and to bring the people together in unity for real freedom, independence and progress which will raise the masses of India from their lowly position to one which they have never known before.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I think that everybody else who has spoken today has been, as is usual on the whole in Indian Debates, more or less of an expert, if I may inoffensively add the words "in some sense or other." I have no expertness of any kind in the matter and I have no great confidence that I am right in what I am going to say; but I do not feel quite sure that it is wrong, and I feel certain that unless it is surely

  2529
  wrong, it is something which ought to be put upon record at this time. I agree with the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) that there has been in some of the speeches today a rather blithe complacency about the beauty and grace of the gesture which we are now performing. I think we had much better wait before we claim this as one of our most glorious days. I hope as sincerely as anybody here that the fate of this Bill will be to do much good to India and I hope that it is still permitted to add, "and much good to our country, too." But I think the kind of blithe complacency about it that we have had today from a great many speakers does really almost invite misfortune.
  I agree with the Prime Minister that the time allotted for this Bill is not commensurate with its importance. That is the first substantive thing I should like to say. And this is connected with it: even suppose that this Bill were certainly right and altogether right, yet I should not think it necessarily followed that a Second Reading ought to be given to it— on two grounds. One is upon the ground that it might be held that it is because during the last two years, the last five or ten years, if you like, but more particularly during the last two years, the administrative machine has been allowed to run down to the point almost of nonentity that it has now reached—that it is because of that that this is the best thing to do. If that view were held, then anybody so holding it would be entitled, I think, to vote against the Second Reading of this Bill on the ground that it is not a Bill which ought to be given to the Government now in office. I am not advising anybody to vote against the Bill, nor am I proposing to vote against it myself. I am only trying to make plain that it seems to me that doubts ought to be expressed at this stage, and I hang that on the peg of the Prime Minister's remarks about the inadequacy of the time because that, after all, has been within his control and that of his right hon. Friends. They have done all sorts of things, taking much time, which nobody can pretend were of any great urgency either to world affairs or to our own economic needs, in this House during the last two years, and now that so little time should be available for this Bill, I think rather a constitutional outrage. It may
  2530
  be that even the time now allotted is more than the House is going to use, but even then there should have been opportunity for almost unlimited debate upon a Bill of this sort and most particularly—if one can say it without getting out of Order— a later stage ought not to be squeezed into a day along with a Privilege question.
  I hope the House will agree with me in what seems to me an elementary proposition—that the duty of Government includes the duty to protect. Indeed the first duty of Government, is, to protect. It is the only unforgivable thing in a Government that it does not protect; and secondly it is a part of that principle that a Government should not surrender its exercise of that function without being clear in its own mind to whom it is surrendering it, that it is surrendering it to an authority capable of exercising it and an authority attracting the maximum of consent, and an authority involving the minimum of danger to minorities to what I might call the natural clients, so to speak, of the abdicating or resigning Government. I hope that I carry the House with me in that fair and proper principle. If that is a fair and proper principle, then I say that, even if it be certain that this Bill is the best thing that can possibly be done at this date, it ought not to pass this House with so little explanation as we have had, and I cannot find it easy in my conscience to vote for it and should not, if I thought that anyone was going to divide against it.
  More particularly, I was disquieted by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury when he said that the Bill recognises the Congress and the League as "successor authorities." I am sure he did say this; I cannot pretend that I have read the Bill properly, but scurrying again through the Bill as he spoke, I cannot find that in the Bill, and I cannot think it right that it should be in the Bill. I cannot believe that hon. Gentlemen opposite would regard it as anything but Fascism if anybody but a British Socialist said that he was treating a party organisation, more particularly either a religious or caste party organisation, as a "successor authority" to a great Government. I feel quite sure that the least term of abuse to come from the opposite side of the House, if that was said by anyone but a British Socialist,

  2531
  would be that it was Fascism, and I think we ought to have some explanation of exactly what these words of the Prime Minister mean.
  We are not now in the condition that there is certainty of what was required from this side of the House on the earlier occasions when India has been mentioned in this House this year, in March and June, I think—what was said from this side of the House, would be prerequisite to any settlement to be tolerated and even welcomed; that is to say, we have not got that assurance that "agreement between the Indian parties has been maintained in fact as in form," which was mentioned as a condition; and I do not really think that it can now be denied that we are dropping our responsibilities without knowing to what authorities, on what terms or in what form they are to be handed over. Nor do we know whether the authorities which are to take the thing from us will be wholly or partially the fruits of agreement. In other words, we are giving, as it were, a blank cheque, and a blank cheque without knowing to whom we are giving it, and the "whom" is not in the singular —a blank cheque to two, three, four or more beneficiaries.
  Out of the considerations which I have mentioned so far, and I hope I have made them plain, out of these, I would submit to the House that there is a long series of problems upon which every hon. Member of the House ought to feel sure —I will not say that the best desirable is being done—but, at least, (a) that the best practicable is being done, and (b)that it is plainly shown that it is being done. There is a whole series of problems and each one of us must feel a degree of confidence on each of these problems before he can take any positive action to expedite the passage of this Bill; because I beg hon. Members to remember that, if I understand the constitutional position aright, this is the last process of the British Parliament in regard to India. Never again will the British Parliament have anything to do with India, so far as we dare foresee. Very well, I say, on the principle which I have endeavoured to indicate, that there is a whole series of claims for protection, security, for which we have a responsibility, and about which we ought to feel
  2532
  quite sure that everything that can be done about them has been done, and we ought to be quite clear that it is quite plain that everything that can be done has been done.
  I ask hon. Members to search their consciences and to say whether the Government, whose duty it was, has demonstrated those propositions to us about defence, which has been mentioned several times, and about the Gurkhas, in particular, defence—as some hon. Member said blithely, Fortunately, that is now no longer for us"—about the Sikhs, about other minor communities, about the Europeans, and about guarantees for civil servants. I am bound to say I could not follow the Prime Minister on the last point. He did not read that part very clearly, and I did not clearly understand what he said. I thought he described at one point something as a guarantee which seemed to me clearly to be not a guarantee, but I hope, from something he said later, there was a guarantee at another place. To continue my list: the depressed classes, the danger, not only of invasion but also of infiltration from outside, the Indian Army, the British Army in India and, last of all—I want to spend three minutes on this, and then I will stop—the Princes.
  No doubt a longer list could be made. All I am saying is that we ought to be plain about each one of these that, in going out we have done, and have made it plain that we have done, everything that could be done for them. If that has not been clearly demonstrated to the House, then I think the Government have not come up to their duty, and the Government have no right to demand the passage of this Bill, or at least its Second Reading. I am not arguing at the moment that it ought not to be passed. [AN HON. MEMBER: What has the hon. Gentleman been arguing?"] I think I have made my argument fairly clear. If hon. Members opposite can make a more intricate argument plainer in a shorter time, I will listen to them any day. About the Princes, and that is the last thing I want to say. I would not set up as an international lawyer, but as I understand the thing, this is a wholesale, one-sided denunciation and renunciation of treaties with our friends, without having consulted our friends. How would hon. Members opposite describe that action if it were taken by anyone not a British

  2533
  Socialist? The wholesale, one-sided denunciation of a large group of treaties with our friends, not at their suggestion, and without consulting them. I do not think it can be said to be less than that. As the Prime Minister pointed out this afternoon, these States do not exist apart from these treaties; they have no international existence at all. I think it ought to have been made plain to us what are the legal and practical consequences of that. Subjects of the State have hitherto had their relations with the British Commonwealth and Empire, and with the outside world, through the allegiance of their Princes to His Majesty, our King. Now, that goes. That is denounced and renounced—as it is rather horribly said nowadays—unilaterally, without any consultation with the other side.
  What comes instead? I cannot believe that the British House of Commons ought gladly, blindly and un-questioningly to allow this Bill to become an Act, and to divest itself for the future of all right to be interested in India unless His Majesty's Government can explain what are the legal and practical results, and can explain to us that there is a morally defensible foundation for this wholesale denunciation of the treaties with the Princes. And the same might be said of the other points I have listed.
  8.54 p.m.
  Mrs. Nichol: I disagreed with a good deal of what the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) said in his opening statement today. But about one thing, I certainly did not disagree, and that was his statement that the final stages in the India story are moving for us all. It has been frequently said today that this is a historic moment. I would like to add my tribute to those of other hon. Members to the patience and painstaking work of the Prime Minister and other right hon. Gentlemen who have laboured so long to find a solution to what has come to be known as the Indian problem. The hon. Member the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) has charged the Government with being complacent. The Government are far from complacent.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I did not charge the Government with complacency. I charged many speakers today with it.
  Mrs. Nichol: I beg the hon. Member's pardon, although I do not think the speeches which have been made today have been complacent. Hon. Members who have taken part in this Debate are well aware that the difficulties and doubts in India are certainly not resolved, and they are well aware that the internal politics of India will be difficult and delicate for a very long time. But in the last two or three years we have played our part honourably and well, and India is now on the very threshhold of the freedom for which she has striven and longed.
  I do not wish to speak on the question of partition or on other details of the Bill, nor do I wish to refer to the question of the States except to say that I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton (Mr. Wyatt) in his definition of his idea of the relationship of the States vis-à-vis the rest of India. I wish, with others on both sides of the House, to send out a few words of hope and encouragement to the whole of the Indian peoples at this great moment, and especially would I like to send out a message to the women of India. A great task lies before the Indian peoples, including the women, and no one realises it more than they do. Hospitals, clinics, schools, and maternity services are only some of the great tasks which lie ahead, and the women of India are eager to help. There are thousands of splendid Indian women who have worked alongside our own women in the hospitals and schools and in trying to get clinics started. They have been tackling these jobs for a great number of years with our own doctors, nurses and missionaries. They have been fighting a battle against poverty, disease and dirt, and many times great waves of famine have swept over India. They have fought a battle against tremendous difficulties. They now have a new and great responsibility which I know they will shoulder, and they will play a tremendous part in the days which lie ahead.
  I feel sure that no Bill which has ever passed this House has carried with it warmer or more sincere wishes for good will and eternal friendship than does this Measure for the independence for India. This Bill will rank as one of the greatest in our history, and I am proud to be associated with a Government which have shown such imagination, courage

  2535
  and integrity. With other hon. Members in all quarters of the House, I want to say: God speed India."?
  9 p.m.
  Sir John Anderson: I think my attitude towards this Bill is intermediate between that of the hon. Lady the Member for North Bradford (Mrs. Nichol), and that of my hon. Friend the senior Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). My hon. Friend struck a decidedly sombre note at the beginning of his speech, and rather invited anyone to tell him that he was wrong. I am certainly not going to do that; but, as regards the doubts and the misgivings that he expressed, I am disposed to think that the time for expressing those doubts and misgivings was last February, when we were debating the Government's plan, rather than now, when we have before us the proposals for carrying that plan, or, at any rate, part of the plan, into effect.
  We are tonight witnessing the closing scenes of a drama, in which the action will take place, for the most part, off stage so far as we are concerned. How much of tragedy may be wrapped up in the strands of its tangled plot—and there may yet be tragedy—will not be known until the epilogue comes to be written—perhaps, many years hence. So far as what is now being done follows inevitably upon the decision announced by the Government last February, we cannot, in my view, at this juncture profitably offer criticism, although the doubts, misgivings and apprehensions then expressed by many of us may not be by one whit diminished. It was then that the die was cast; and Parliament having accepted the plan. further examination of its essential elements can, in my view, serve no useful purpose, and may well, on the contrary do harm. I have felt bound to make this clear, lest misunderstandings should arise from the very limited scope of the observations which I have to offer to the House at this juncture.
  There are, however, matters within what may be taken to be the fixed pattern of the Government's scheme which can, I think profitably, be further ventilated. Many of them concern points of detail which, no doubt, can most-conveniently be dealt with in Committee. There are only three or four major issues which I wish to bring before the House
  2536
  now. Before coming to these, I think in fairness I ought to say that, in several respects, it seems to me that events have taken a more favourable course than many of us thought possible last February. It is only fair that one who uttered a number of sharp criticisms then should say that now. I think the improvement, such as it is, is undoubtedly partly due to the patience—the extraordinary patience—and skill with which the Viceroy has handled a very difficult and delicate situation; and I should like to associate myself wholeheartedly with the tributes paid to him by the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan). But I think the improvement is also partly due to another cause —to a change in the Government's plan
  The House may or may not recall that, when we were debating the proposals of the Government last February, I ventured to say that, in my opinion, if there had to be any question of a fixed date, the date should be related to a decision as to whether we were to hand over to an undivided or to a divided India, and that it should not be related to the completion of a constitutional process of indeterminate scope and complexity. What I then ventured to put forward is very much what has, in fact, happened. A definite decision has been taken on the major issue of partition, and there is no longer prominently before us any fixed date for the completion of these complex constitutional processes to which I have referred, for the simple reason that we are handing over responsibility for those to the Governor-General, or the Governors-General, and the Governments of the new Dominions, and they can be carried through quickly or slowly as events may determine. Anyhow, I do say that in my opinion we have now before us something which is a decided improvement on the original plan.
  What I have just been saying brings me to the first of the major topics on which I wish to offer some comment. That is, the question of the power of the Governor-General or the Governors-General. The Prime Minister had something to say on that subject. He said—and said truly— that they were very wide. They are, indeed, most remarkable and unusual powers, no doubt for dealing, as the Prime Minister said, with an unusual situation. But when one reads Clause 9 in conjunc-

  2537
  tion with Clause 19, the interpretation Clause, one has a picture which requires some further elucidation. After the appointed day, quite clearly the constitutional Governor-General must act on the advice of his Ministers. If there were to be one Governor-General for the two parts of India there would be two sets of Ministers. One wonders what one Governor-General would do if they gave conflicting advice. We can perhaps put that out of our minds, although it is provided for in the Bill, in view of the announcement which the Prime Minister has made to the House. But if there are to be two Governors-General, the same problem will arise in a different form, for they have to act jointly, and it seems to me that they may well find joint action impossible because of conflicting ministerial views.
  There is no provision in the Bill about what is to happen in the event of the joint action contemplated by Clause 19 in the words in any other case" hey are to be taken "s references to the Governors-General of the new Dominions acting jointly" roving impossible. The Prime Minister referred, I think, to an arbitral tribunal. But if I understood him aright the arbitral tribunal to which he referred was to deal with the division of assets and liabilities. Will not there have to be some new machinery, not provided in this Bill, for coping with a situation such as I have pictured, of disagreement— which is surely by no means unlikely —between the Ministers of the two Dominions ? Perhaps we could have some further statement as to what is in the minds of the Government in that regard, It may be contemplated that any difficulty will be resolved by administrative action.
  I have another question to ask in regard to Clause 9 as read with Clause 19. What is to be the position before the appointed day? The Governor-General— and there is only the question here of one Governor-General—has at his disposal all these remarkable powers during that period, and he is deemed to have had them from, I think, 3rd June. Is he to be, in the exercise of these powers, a complete autocrat, a sort of super-satrap, or is he to act subject to any kind of constitutional control? I should suppose the answer is that the Governor-General, up to the appointed day, 15th August, acts subject to the control of the Secretary of State and Parliament. If that is the
  2538
  position de jure,will it also be the position de facto?One hardly supposes that the present Government would look with favour on a plan which involved handing over these tremendous powers, including the power to remove difficulties—the old Henry VIII clause—and the power to amend statutes, to a person, however competent, subject to no constitutional control. I hope that we may have an answer to that, and that we shall not be told that this is a sort of thing which the Prime Minister referred to as being a possible cause of deadlock, if one is, indeed, looking for deadlocks.
  My next point is not a technical or constitutional one, but an eminently practical one from my point of view. It concerns the position of the services. I am bound to say that there is much anxiety in many quarters in regard to the position of members of the services of all grades. I have had many representations, as no doubt have hon. Members on both sides I think that there is a very strong case for further assurances from His Majesty's Government. I am not concerned wholly or mainly with the Secretary of State's services, because I have had very little doubt that Parliament, after what has already been said, would feel committed to ensure the fulfilment of the obligations of His Majesty's Government. I noticed that the Prime Minister, in his speech, made that the subject of a specific declaration. So far so good, and I have no doubt that the same holds good for the Army. The Prime Minister's phrase, which I took down, was rather a curious one. He referred to the Secretary of State's services and analogous services." was not at all clear what he meant by analogous services." perhaps we shall have an explanation of that. In that connection, I would point out that the more precise and specific the assurances given in regard to one section of the services, the greater the room for doubt and misgiving in regard to the others.
  There are many members, both European and Indian, in the services outside the scope of the Secretary of State's and "analogous services," whatever may be the precise meaning of those words. The vast majority are Indians, but the number of Europeans in various grades and various services is quite substantial. There are the Europeans on the railways, and the Europeans in the miscellaneous technical services. There are the

  2539
  European sergeants of police in the big cities like Calcutta and Bombay. I feel very strongly that the Government and this House have some measure of responsibility towards these people. The Prime Minister paid a very eloquent tribute to the services rendered in India by the men who have gone from this country to fill great positions. I am sure that he would be the first to recognise that quite minor officials, Indians as well as (Europeans, have also rendered great services in their own way.
  I would be prepared to draw some distinction in this matter between Indians and Europeans. I think, in regard to the hundreds of thousands of Indians who have served the British Raj in the past with extraordinary fidelity, that we owe them a debt we should recognise and that we should press for undertakings. We ought to have the fullest assurances that there will be nothing in the nature of victimisation of those people because they have served the British Government well. I believe that there would be little difficulty in getting such assurances. I am sure that the Indian leaders are not lacking in generosity or fairmindedness. I do not believe they would resent in any way our representing to them that we felt a responsibility for those who have served us during our time in India. If we had a satisfactory undertaking in regard to the Indians, I believe we could rely upon its being carried out.
  The position of the Europeans, outside the Secretary of State's services, is substantially different. They went out to India, strangers in a strange land. They followed the flag. They served the Crown there. They may or may not remain in India. If they come home, after then-service in India, and find that they are not being treated as they thought they had a right to expect, have they no redress? Are we going to wash our hands of them? I hope not. I hope that in regard to these Europeans we shall frankly recognise a continuing responsibility. No doubt the Governments in India are prepared to accept financial responsibility, but there is a little more in it than that. There is a moral responsibility, and that rests here, in my opinion.
  As this is probably the last opportunity that we shall have to raise this matter and
  2540
  to press for assurances, I hope that we shall be successful in getting those assurances now. No question can arise of the money involved, as that money would be quite insignificant. The numbers of people involved are not so great as to make any substantial difference, but it would mean a very great deal to those people and to their dependants if they had the assurances for which I ask. Whatever assurances the Governments in India may give, governments come and go, and they will be found to come and go even in India. There ought to be assurances given by His Majesty's Government, with the approval of Parliament, before the withdrawal.
  My third point concerns the States. It is a matter about which I confess I feel very uncomfortable indeed. The States have trusted us for a long period of years. They have shown remarkable devotion to the British Crown. If we may expect them to recognise that what is happening in British India, with its consequent repercussions upon them, is inevitable, they, on their part, are fully entitled to expect us to recognise that we have an obligation towards them. Though they will emerge when the Bill is passed as sovereign Powers, fully endowed with complete sovereignty, they will find themselves on the appointed day, by reason of the special relationship in which they have stood up to the present time towards the British Crown, and by reason solely of that relationship, at a great disadvantage, without much of what I may call the essential panoply of sovereignty. They will be without defence forces, or with inadequate defence forces, without representation abroad or the means of obtaining representation abroad, and so on. I say in that regard that we have a moral responsibility of which we cannot divest ourselves by a stroke of the pen. Legal responsibility, formal technical responsibility, is to go. We all know that. The moral responsibility remains.
  I suggest to the Prime Minister and his colleagues that the question of our attitude towards the States requires further consideration. There are undoubtedly misunderstandings to be cleared away and there has undoubtedly been a certain number of unguarded statements. The matter arises, as it seems to me, at two stages, and the Prime Minister recognised this in his speech. While the terms of

  2541
  accession of the native States to the new Dominions are under discussion, I think it would be very unfortunate that the States should stand aloof and not participate, so that when the time comes they may be in the best position to decide whether it would not be in their best interests, in the long view—and they have to take the long view—to adhere to one or other of the Dominions. That is my view, and it is one which can properly be expressed in the House of Commons.
  But quite different considerations arise, in my judgment, at the second stage, when the terms and conditions of accession have been discussed and settled, and crucial decisions have to be taken. Again I say, frankly, that I would regard it as a happy issue if a very high proportion, if not all, of the States decided that their interests would be best served by accession. But that, surely, is for them to decide, entirely without pressure from outside. I have no hesitation in saying that it is our duty, as I have indicated, having regard to our responsibility for the position in which they find themselves, to do our utmost to ensure that they are not exposed before the appointed day, or thereafter, to any pressure, economic, political, or physical, to take any course other than that which, after due deliberation, they decide is in the best interests of the particular State. After all, the circumstances of the different States differ very widely. There are, on the one hand, small States quite incapable of standing alone, and on the other extreme, there are States like Hyderabad which has a population, I believe, of 17 million. What may be held to be advantageous for some, might fairly be held to be disadvantageous for others.
  If certain States eventually decide against accession, however much we might, on broad, general considerations, deplore their decision, we should, in my view, accept it without question, and leave no room for doubt that our good offices would be available to any extent desired, and, in particular, that we would be willing to enter into new relationships with such States without, of course, impinging on the legitimate interests of either Dominion. That we should take any other course seems to me quite unthinkable, and I invite the Government to make their attitude clear in this matter without delay. I would refer, in passing, to the particular case of Berar, although
  2542
  that might perhaps be more appropriately dealt with in Committee. The position there is a very peculiar one. That is a territory which is under the sovereignty of the Nizam of Hyderabad, whose sovereignty has been reaffirmed by the British Government again and again, but which, for a long time, has been administered as an integral part of British India, of the Central Provinces. I should hope that at the appropriate time we would have a clear statement as to what the position of Berar will be after the Bill has been passed. Berar was the subject of special provisions in the Government of India Act, 1935.
  I trust that the Government will recognise that in asking for assurances on these points I am not putting forward any unreasonable request. It has already been made clear that we on this side have no intention of dividing against this Bill, and perhaps it is not too much to hope that in those circumstances His Majesty's Government might find themselves the more ready to give such assurances as we ask for. I will leave it to the right hon. and learned Gentleman to make such reply as he can, and I hope that I may be acquitted of discourtesy if I do not remain to hear the conclusion of his speech, as he knows that I have a very pressing engagement.
  9.25 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for India (Mr. Arthur Henderson): The Debate which has taken place today has been notable not only for the quality of the speeches that have been delivered but also for the spirit of sincerity and goodwill which has been manifested from all sides of the House towards the Indian people. Whatever views one may hold with regard to our connection with India in the past, there is abundant evidence of the great benefits which the British have brought to the Indian people; benefits which will have lasting effects for good in the life of India. I believe that the decisive act upon which we are today engaged may well prove to be the crowning benefit.
  The Prime Minister this afternoon recalled to the House that it has not been the view of our statesmen and administrators that India would remain permanently subject to British supremacy. Our statesmen began in the very early days to point the goal of British rule as

  2543
  being Indian self-government. Writing in 1818, Lord Hastings, who was responsible as Governor-General for a substantial expansion of British rule, declared his belief that:
  "A time not very remote will arrive when England will on sound principles of policy wish to relinquish the domination which she has gradually and unintentionally assumed over this country and from which she cannot at present recede."
  Another prophet of India's emancipation was Henry Lawrence, who said in 1844:
  "We cannot expect to hold India forever. Let us so conduct ourselves so as, when the connection ceases, it may do so not with convulsions but with mutual esteem and affection."
  These were prophetic words, "mutual esteem and affection," because I believe we can justly hope that these sentiments will underlie the new association which this Bill establishes; an association which we believe will enable the new Indian Dominions and the other members of the British Commonwealth to cooperate to the fullest possible extent in the task that lies before us of reconstructing a world broken by war on the basis of freedom and humanity.
  A good many points have been raised during this very interesting Debate, and I shall hope, if time permits, to deal with all or most of them. The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) raised a number of points. His first point, I think, was: How was the position to be dealt with when a difference arose between the Ministers and the respective Governors-General of the new Dominions? Well, I frankly say that I can see no real means of resolving such a deadlock. If you have a difference of viewpoint on the part of the two Governments, it is quite clear that that deadlock and that difference can only be resolved by some kind of action on the part of those Governments, and not by anything we can put into this Bill. He then asked who was to control the Governor-General up to 15th August? The position is as it has been for the past six or nine months. His Majesty's Government agreed to treat the Interim Government with the same freedom and consideration as a Dominion Government. That is the position today and that position will continue until the appointed day, 15th August. The answer is, therefore, that the Viceroy or Governor-General will
  2544
  continue to be subject to the advice of his Ministers who form the Interim Government of India.
  The right hon. Gentleman's next question was with regard to the Services. He asked what was meant by the term "analogous services." The analogous services are the various defence forces. The statement of policy which was made by the Prime Minister on 30th April with regard to pensions covers the members of the Secretary of State's Services and the various members of the Defence Services and for these purposes they are considered to be and are described as analogous services.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: This is rather an important point. Does that include what are called the uncovenanted services?
  Mr. Henderson: No, and I am coming to deal with that now. It does not cover Europeans who are in the service of the various Provincial Governments and who are not members of the Secretary of State's Services; nor does it cover such personnel as are in the employment, for example, of the Railway Department of the Central Government. They have their contracts direct with the Government of India or the Governor-General in Council on the one hand, in the case of the Railway Service, and with the Provincial Governments in the other cases. The most we can do is to have got the leaders of the major parties of India to accept the responsibility for pensions and proportionate pensions. Any question of safeguarding their interests under their contracts must be done in another way.
  Mr. Butler: What does that mean?
  Mr. Henderson: What we intend to do is to cover such matters in the treaty that we intend to negotiate with the successor Governments.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley made a very interesting speech, though at times the language he used seemed rather forceful. We do not object to that, but I was a little disappointed when he declared that the decision of His Majesty's Government on 20th February, when it was announced that His Majesty's Government intended to leave India in June of next year, had, in the right hon. Gentleman's own words, "shattered all hope of unity in India." I must confess I thought the right hon.

  2545
  Gentleman had not been paying very close attention to the course of events in India during the last 12 to 18 months, because if he had he must have remembered the efforts of the Cabinet Mission in the spring of 1946, which eventually materialised in what is known as the Cabinet Mission Plan, which it is common ground has failed because one of the major parties refused to accept it.
  That only proves beyond all argument that there was such a state of disunity in India as to bring to an end this plan, which can, I think, be regarded as having been a very satisfactory compromise solution of the problem. Therefore, the announcement made on 20th February did not destroy Indian unity, but it did prevent India from falling into a state of anarchy and chaos, and it has led directly to the present situation whereby we are passing this Bill with, I hope and believe, the assent and support of all sections of the House. That is a very different proposition. The right hon. Gentleman raised the question of minorities and in fairness at any rate to the Congress Party, and to the Constituent Assembly that has been meeting for the past six months in Delhi, I might refer him to a resolution which was unanimously passed by that Constituent Assembly, and which provided as follows:
  "Wherein shall be guaranteed and assured to all the people of India justice, social, economic and political; equality of status, of opportunity, and before the law; freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship, association and action subject to the law and public morality. Wherein adequate safeguard shall be provided for minorities, backward and tribal areas, and depressed and other backward classes."
  The right hon. Gentleman smiles and it may be he is saying that there is not much value in a resolution, but I think we are entitled to take what evidence there is available to indicate what is likely to be the attitude of those who control at any rate one of the new Dominions. I suggest that that constitutes a charter of fundamental human rights of which any country might well be proud, and we have no reason at this juncture to assume that they will not live up to that charter.
  Mr. Molson: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman answer this question? On the matter of the Provincial services, he said that it was the intention of the Government to try to cover that
  2546
  point in a treaty which this Government is going to negotiate with the separate Governments in India. Is it the intention of the Government to try to insert, in that treaty similar provisions for the minorities whom in the past we have safeguarded?
  Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. I think that is an entirely different proposition to putting into the treaty safeguards for those who enjoy contractual rights in Provincial and Central Government service. We should not put into the treaty something which will be entirely within the competence of the new Dominions, and I think it would be an indication that we are taking a very poor view of the work they are doing and the results of their deliberations, following the passing of such a resolution as I have just read out to the House.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley both raised questions with regard to the position of the States. I can only say in reply to both right hon. Gentlemen that I cannot go beyond the words that were used by the Prime Minister in his opening speech today, but perhaps the House would be interested to know that a conference is to start tomorrow in Delhi, over which the Viceroy will preside, and which is to be attended by representatives of the new State Department of the Interim Government on the one hand and the representatives of the States of Hyderabad, Mysore and Travancore on the other hand. I think it would be most unfortunate on my part if at this stage I were to seek to express any views as to what the outcome of that conference may be. I would remind the House, in view of the feelings and fears which have been expressed by various hon. Members, of the statement made a few days ago by Sardar Patel in which he said:
  "The States have already accepted the basic principle that for defence, foreign affairs and communications they would come into an Indian union. We ask no more of them than accession on these three subjects in which the common interests of the country are involved. In other matters we would scrupulously respect their autonomous existence."
  Mr. H. Macmillan: Is that true? That is an important statement. Is it really the fact that all the States have accepted, in the words that have just been given, unity on foreign affairs, defence and so on? Surely, that is not the case at all ? There

  2547
  are States who have yet to make up their minds whether to accept it.
  Mr. Henderson: Yes, but the Chamber of Princes did agree to enter into negotiations with the Constituent Assembly and in fact appointed a negotiating committee to cover all the matters that would be relevant.
  Mr. H. Macmillan: That statement goes far further. If it were really true, it would not be necessary to have the negotiations.
  Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. What Sardar Patel is referring to is the acceptance of the principle. He does not say that they have gone beyond the acceptance of the principle, which is a very different thing.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not under a slight delusion about this, and making a mistake in reading it? Surely, that does not apply to Hyderabad?
  Mr. Henderson: Perhaps I ought to have limited this statement—it is not my statement; I am quoting Sardar Patel—to those which are connected with the Chamber of Princes.
  Mr. Nicholson: To make it quite clear —I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way; he is very polite—they are not all members of the Chamber of Princes. That is the trouble, is it not?
  Mr. Henderson: I have qualified my statement to those States which are members of the Chamber of Princes, and that certainly excludes Hyderabad, Mysore and Travancore. The importance of the statement is that the conference is taking place tomorrow between the three large States I have named and the State Department which has just been set up by the Interim Government.
  There is one other point which has not been raised, but to which I would like to refer in passing, and that is the position of the outstanding Indian sterling debt, comprising the Indian Railway annuities and certain stocks all of which were issued or taken over by the Secretary of State in Council under specific Parliamentary authority and for which the Secretary of State remained responsible under the Government of India
  2548
  Act, 1935. Having regard to the manner in which these liabilities were incurred and have been administered. His Majesty's Government intend, as part of the future negotiations with India, to suggest that a sum in sterling should be set aside to cover this liability.
  The hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool (Brigadier Low) raised two points with which I should like to deal. He asked under whom would the British troops be, operationally, between 15th August and the date of final evacuation. The answer is that they will be under a British commander who will be responsible to His Majesty's Government, although the troops, for administrative purposes, will be under the Commander-in-Chief, India.
  The hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans) raised the question of the Anglo-Indian community. He asked whether or not it would be possible to organise mass emigration of the members of this community to Australia, or to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, or even to this country. All I can do is to refer him to the reply I made to him a few days ago in which I indicated that the Anglo-Indian Association which is the only recognised organisation speaking for the Anglo-Indian community, have said in terms recently that they are not prepared to sponsor any scheme of emigration.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Perth and Kinross (Colonel Gomme-Duncan) again raised the question of the Gurkhas, in which I know he is extremely interested. I have answered Questions addressed by him and others to me on this problem, and I can only state that while it is true some attachments of Indian officers have taken place, there have been no permanent postings, and there is no reason to suppose that anything is being done which will prejudice the eventual position pending settlement between the three Governments concerned. I may add that further discussions are to take place between them.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Where do the Indian Government come into this? We have a treaty between Nepal and Great Britain, and the Indian Government have nothing to do with the Gurkhas who are in the Indian Army.
  Mr. Henderson: I think the new Government of India will be perfectly free to seek to employ Gurkha troops just as freely as anyone else. The whole question of the employment of Gurkha troops, which affects all three Governments, is being properly settled between them
  Brigadier Low: The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he was going to deal with two points which I raised. He has dealt with one. I do not know whether the other has slipped his memory?
  Mr. Henderson: I was going to make one more comment in regard to the employment of Gurkha troops. The hon. and gallant Member will know better than I do that the question of transit is of very great importance when we are dealing with the employment of Gurkhas, and from that angle it is important that we should associate the Government of India with these discussions. To the other question raised by the hon. and gallant Member for North Blackpool I am not in a position to give an answer at the moment, but I will take steps to obtain it.
  This is indeed a memorable occasion, marking as it does the closing of an old chapter and the opening of a new one in the relations between the British and the Indian peoples. Britain has written many chapters in the history of human freedom, but never a greater chapter than is being written today in this Bill, enabling, as it does, the Indian people freely to join the British Commonwealth as equal partners. The Commonwealth is not based on a rigid or pedantic legal formula. It represents a spiritual union; its essence is a voluntary association of free peoples who are bound together by common ideals and by mutual trust and confidence. It is a group of nations who know how to live together in peace and friendship and to co-operate to the common benefit of themselves and of mankind; whose way to life is based inherently upon the respect for the rule of law and a recognition of fundamental human rights.
  I do not believe that I am claiming too much when I assert that the horrors of war which have so afflicted mankind in the past would cease to be a menace to human happiness if only all the nations
  2550
  in the world could agree to live together as do those who belong to the British Commonwealth. That is indeed perhaps why the British Commonwealth constitutes today in a troubled and dangerous world a beacon of hope and an inspiration to millions of men and women everywhere. There are those who allege that Britain, in recognising the full freedom of India, is acting under constraint, that her strength is sapped and her influence is waning. Nothing could be further from the truth. Britain's moral strength and influence was never greater than it is today. The greatness of Britain at rock-bottom does not rest on the size of her territory or the military forces which she can deploy, or in the economic power she can wield. It lies basically in the character of her people, in their political genius, in their sense of justice and in their unshakable faith in humanity. The late Sir Austen Chamberlain declared at Liverpool in November, 1921, that,
  "Now and again in the affairs of men there comes a moment when courage is safer than prudence, when some great act of faith touching the hearts and stirring the emotions of men achieves a miracle that no words of statesmanship can compass."
  Sir, this Bill is such an act of faith which enables us in all sincerity of purpose to transfer the destiny of the Indian people into their own hands. I received a letter a few days ago from one of the most distinguished Indian leaders in which he expressed the hope that India
  "In her onward journey will have the unstinted goodwill of every section of opinion in England."
  He went on to say
  "It is only on this foundation that we can build the edifice of future British-Indo relations on the basis of equality, of mutual co-operation and benefit."
  This Bill, receiving, as I believe it will, the unanimous support of all sections of both Houses of Parliament and of the nation as a whole is not only the recognition of India's full equality, but also a pledge of our unstinted goodwill
  Question put, and agreed to
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[Mr. Snow.]

  EUROPEAN RECONSTRUCTION
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— —[Mr. Snow.]
  9.56 p.m.
  Mr. Zilliacus: I rise to make an appeal to the Government not to regard the failure of the Paris Conference to secure the co-operation of the Soviet Union and an important part of Eastern Europe as final, still less as desirable, and to make clear that they have not abandoned hope but will make every effort to restore the all-European co-operation which was our original object. I make that appeal, first, because I believe that the differences revealed at Paris were not of such a character as to make it hopeless to try to reach agreement; secondly, because the chief instrument for reaching agreement, the European Economic Commission of the United Nations, was never used; and third because the consequences of not reaching agreement are so extremely serious. The Minister of State said a few days ago, at the meeting of the European Economic Commission at Geneva:
  "On one point which seemed to us fundamental, the view of the U.S.S.R. on the one hand and the view of the French Government and the United Kingdom Government on the other hand were different."
  I would like to know what was that fundamental point, because careful study of the positions of the three Powers, as stated by their delegates at Paris, did not, in my view, reveal any fundamental point of difference. There was, on the part of the Soviet delegate, certainly, a pessimistic, negative and stonewalling attitude; he was not very constructive or helpful. On our part there was, I think, a somewhat brusque and take-it-or-leave-it attitude. Both sides outlined their initial or bargaining positions, what are called in diplomatic jargon their"positions de depart."They both then made slightly modified proposals, but there were no serious negotiations to try to bring together the two points of view.
  The differences related to two chief issues, the first being the nature of the action to be taken in response to the Marshall offer, and the second the nature of the body to carry out that action. The Soviet view, as stated by M. Molotov, was that information should be gathered about the national plans of European
  2552
  countries and about what those plans called for in the shape of goods or credits from outside, and that those requirements should then be added together and presented to the United States as the aggregate demand of Europe for financial assistance. M. Molotov further said that
  "co-operation based on the development of political and economic relations between States possessing equal rights"
  was, in his view, the correct kind of inter national co-operation. He said:
  "The Soviet Union favours the fullest development of economic collaboration between European and other countries on a healthy basis of equality and mutual respect for national interests, and has itself constantly contributed and will contribute to this end by the expansion of trade with other countries."
  The "New Times," a Soviet publication, commenting on the Soviet proposals, said that they meant that a co-ordinated programme should be drafted, based on the plans and the estimated needs of the European States. The Anglo-French proposals, on the other hand, called for the gathering of information on the assets and requirements in food and agriculture, in coal and other forms of fuel and power, in iron and steel and transport, with the object of gathering the data necessary to frame a four - year programme of European recovery. This programme should state—I quote:
  "(a)To what extent it can be achieved by increasing the production of European countries themselves and by the interchange of available resources between them. (b)What external assistance the European countries require."
  The reason why I do not see a fundamental difference between the Soviet proposals and the Anglo-French proposals, though I frankly prefer the latter—they seem more constructive and seem to go further—is that the national plans of the European countries all include programmes for raising production, for in creasing exports and imports and for concluding commercial treaties, some of which have already been concluded, binding together the mainly agricultural Eastern Europe with the mainly industrial Western Europe. Steps are also being taken in Eastern Europe to coordinate the national plans of a number of countries. Therefore, if we were to act on the Soviet proposal to gather the information proposed by the Soviet Government, the result would be to provide and even to assemble and collate the data

  2553
  required for framing the four-year programme of European recovery called for by the Anglo-French proposals. I do not really see that there is an un-negotiable gulf between the two sides on that particular issue.
  The second issue was the greatest stumbling block. That was the question of what body should be entrusted with the carrying out of this work. The proposal made by the Anglo-French side was a steering committee or co-operation committee composed of the three leading Powers and a small number of other States. Further, in the words of the British plan:
  "The Steering Committee will, as suggested by Mr. Marshal], seek the friendly aid of the United States in the drafting of the programme."
  This was interpreted by the Soviet delegates—
  It being Ten o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— ['Mr. Snow.]
  Mr. Zilliacus: This proposal was interpreted by the Soviet Government as meaning an attempt by the Western great Powers, acting in conjunction with the United States, to impose their will and, in particular, to impose the policies of the United States on the Continent. I believe that fear was exaggerated. I do not think that it was wholly fanciful, but I regret that the Soviet delegate did not say, "Yes," or, at any rate, "Yes, but—", and confined himself to saying, "No." I do not think that his "No" meant that it was impossible to come to terms with the Soviet Union on this issue. I regret even more that Mr. Molotov abandoned the proposal that he had put forward originally and tentatively, and which was mentioned in the Soviet Press, of using the European Economic Commission of United Nations as the executive organ to carry out the proposed job of work. He abandoned it when the idea was opposed by the British delegation.
  I regret profoundly that our delegation saw fit to oppose the idea that we should have recourse to the European Economic Commission of the United Nations, because if we had accepted that proposal I think we would have been on the way to
  2554
  solving the chief difficulty that caused the breakdown. I believe our refusal to entertain the idea of using the European Economic Commission of the United Nations has left us with some share of the responsibility for the breakdown of the proceedings in Paris. After all, we are pledged to base our policy on the United Nations. After all, the European Economic Commission of the United Nations was established only four months ago, after long and laborious negotiations, and, its task, in the terms of its constitution, is:
  "To initiate and participate in measures for facilitating concerted action for the economic reconstruction of Europe, for raising the level of European economic activities, and for maintaining and strengthening the economic relations of the European countries both among themselves and with other countries of the world."
  In addition, the Commission is to make or sponsor such economic investigations within European countries, or within Europe in general, as it may deem appropriate. The Commission is composed of all the 17 European members of the United Nations, including the Soviet Union, Poland and Yugoslavia, whose co-operation we have temporarily lost. It also has the right to invite European non-member states of United Nations to take part in its work—such as, for instance, Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Finland, not all of whom are likely to come to the Conference in Paris, more is the pity. The field of action of the Commission is the whole of Europe including, specifically, Germany.
  The Commission has already begun to gather and to analyse data precisely of the type called for both by the Soviet and by the Anglo-French proposals. The Commission has the right to appoint subcommittees and already there is a coal sub-committee and a transport subcommittee which have acquired considerable experience, as they pre-existed the Commission. The Commission absorbed these bodies which existed earlier. It has worked out its relations with the Food and Agriculture Organisation, with the International Development Bank, and with other specialised agencies of the United Nations. It is, of course, also in relations with its parent body, the Social and Economic Council of the United Nations. It has a secretariat of international officials which forms part of the general Secretariat of the United Nations

  2555
  and it can draw on the general Secretariat for information, for documents, for additional personnel with expert knowledge, and so on. In every way, so far as I can see, the European Economic Commission is an instrument admirably fitted to carry out the work for which it was designed.
  I would address to the Government the familiar old question, "Why bark when you keep a dog?" I do not understand why we have not attempted to use the European Economic Commission having taken all the trouble to set it -up, and being under an obligation to use it as a loyal member of the United Nations. The only two arguments which I have heard as objections to using the European Economic Commission do not impress me. The first argument is that the United Nations Organisation is too young. That is the argument of immaturity, and all I can say is that, if the United Nations child is too young to be entrusted with this responsibility, I see no reason at all why the Foreign Secretary should spend a weekend in Paris trying to make a brand new baby to do the job. I think the argument against improvising an entirely new and untried piece of machinery is stronger than any argument against trying to use machinery which is already set up for that particular purpose.
  Mr. Scollan: Would my hon. Friend deal with this question? Surely the Russian attitude left the Anglo-French representatives in the position that they had to make some new machinery?
  Mr. Zilliacus: I do not think so. I think that, if we had wanted to go ahead, we could have used the Economic Commission. We had the initiative and there was no reason in the world why we should not have done that, if we had wanted to. We could perfectly well. when the Government decided upon taking the initiative in response to the Marshall offer, have sent a note to the Soviet Government, and to the French Government, and, I should say, to some of the other important European Governments, and to the Secretariat of the European Economic Commission, saying that we were placing this subject on the agenda for the next meeting, which actually began on 5th July, and asking those Governments to give their views, and giving them our
  2556
  views, on how the job ought to be done. The moment that happened, it would automatically have become the task of the Secretariat of the Commission to send representatives to all these Governments, or to some of them, to find out what was their view, and then to sit down at Geneva and, on the basis of the information and suggestions received, draft an agreed basis, a compromise draft basis for discussion when the Conference actually met. Then the Conference would have been properly prepared. When the Conference met—it has actually met now, but not with this matter before it, and it includes all the European members of the United Nations and might equally well have included some non-members—it would have met on the basis of an agreed agenda and a compromise proposal, and would have found the questions of organisation and competence, of hours and purposes already settled and agreed upon beforehand by all the Governments concerned.
  I believe that there is still one outstanding question of procedure—the question whether decisions of substance shall be taken by a two-thirds majority or by a simple majority, but that could very easily have been settled by compromise, by saying for instance that questions of substance involving direct relations with Governments—and that is within the purview of the Committee—could be dealt with by a two-thirds majority, whereas questions involving the relations of the Committee with other United Nations bodies should be dealt with on the basis of a majority. Something like that could have been agreed to. If it had been, the chances are that we should be well away by this time, instead of which, I am afraid the procedure actually adopted was a flagrant case of more haste, less speed.
  Another plea raised against the Economic Commission is that it is too cumbrous, too slow, and so we dashed off to Paris. It is rather as if a man agreed with his friends to take a certain road to reach their destination, and somebody else says, "Let us start," to which the man replies "We're off, but this road is much too long; we will take a short cut," and then dashes into a dead end and bangs his head against a wall. That is more or less what the position is in regard to the procedure that led to the Paris fiasco. By trying to go straight ahead and by-passing the European Economic Commission, we

  2557
  have had some share in the breakdown in Paris, and in losing the co-operation of some important European States, including the Soviet Union. We are still not sure what States are coming to the conference. We do not know how far those that come will be able fully to participate in the work of the conference. We have to improvise and negotiate questions of procedure and organisation, and the composition of the bodies to carry out the decisions. We have to improvise a secretariat. There is no organic relationship to the United Nations.
  I think that by losing the co-operation of the Soviet Union and some of the vitally important agrarian States of Eastern Europe, the chances of doing anything useful have been very much diminished. I am very much afraid that what has happened may easily influence the fate of the commercial treaties under negotiation with some Eastern European States, including the Soviet Union. I devoutly hope that is not so. I hope that not only our Government—I am pretty sure that the Government do take the view —but also that some of the Eastern European States, including the Soviet Union, will emulate our sound belief in a piecemeal, pragmatical approach to these things, and our belief that if we can get good commercial treaties, we can build bridges over which we can in due course pass to co-operation between East and West Europe.
  Take the States that have turned up. Czechoslovakia is the most important one. They are being represented by their ambassador in Paris, who is there, according to the official announcement, in order to find out what is going on, in order to gather information. That means that they are there practically as observers. Even supposing they were there on the basis of full co-operation, the fact remains that Czechoslovakia has just concluded an all-in commercial treaty with Poland that amounts to something like economic federation, and has also important economic relationships 'with the Soviet Union. Therefore, in the absence of Poland and the Soviet Union, the action of Czechoslovakia is much restricted. The Czechs have always made it clear that they want co-operation between East and West and they do not want to have to choose between them, but, if they do, they will in the last analysis stand with the Soviet Union.
  2558
  Take Sweden, which is economically far and away the strongest of the Scandinavian States, and which has a powerful, modern industry. The Swedes have a very comprehensive commercial agreement with the Soviet Union, which is going to absorb a great deal of their exports. They have a treaty with Poland, on whom they are depending for coal. There, too, their liberty of action will be much restricted in a conference which does not include these particular States. Scandinavia, as a whole, is haunted by the fear of being dragged into any kind of Western bloc.They want to stay neutral, unless they can come into European affairs on the basis of agreement between East and West.
  In France and Italy these developments are going to cause great difficulties because, in each of those countries, the Communist Parties are so powerful. In Italy the greater part—84 per cent.— of the Socialist Party is hand in glove with the Communists. In both countries they are in control of the trade unions, and of practically the whole working class. There is partial opposition; it is only partial. I am glad to say that Palmiro Togliatti, the Communist leader, has stated that they will co-operate in this. But, even so, this East-West division is bound to increase the internal difficulties and frictions, and to make it harder for those States to co-operale fully.
  The argument which one most often hears for the whole of this policy is that we have got to have the dollars in any case, even if it means giving up cooperation with Eastern Europe. But we need the co-operation of Eastern Europe, just as much as we need the dollars. We need Russian wheat and timber, Polish eggs and bacon, and whatever we can get from other countries in Eastern Europe which produce a surplus of food and raw materials. The Minister of Food was very insistent on that point the other day. Above all, we must get the whole of Europe in on this arrangement, because Western Europe alone is too lopsided economically and too heavily industrialised to be self-supporting and to stand on its own feet and pay its own way without Eastern Europe. This means an undesirable degree of dependence on the United States.

  2559
  The whole future development of the situation seems to me to be so dangerous and serious, that I beg the Government to make a further attempt to restore the unity which we lost at Paris, partly, I think, through our own fault. I believe the acid test of whether we are sincerely trying in this matter is whether or not we are prepared to resort to the European Economic Commission. I would beg the Government, when the Paris Conference meets, to propose that they should decide to entrust the job of assembling the necessary data to the European Economic Commission. They should prolong the present session, if necessary, for that purpose, if thereby we could secure the full co-operation of the States that have dropped out. If that request were made by the whole Conference, and were supported by diplomatic action in Moscow, Warsaw and in other capitals, I have small doubt that the result would be to put us back where we were before the unfortunate breakdown in Paris. I suggest it is really of vital importance that we should proceed on the basis of the whole of Europe, and that we should not drift into the position of being completely dependent on the present powers that be in the United States as a result of being confined to Western Europe. That is the burden of my song, and I very much hope the Under-Secretary will be able to give me some reassurances.
  10.17 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): I think it will be particularly hard for me to reply adequately tonight, in view of the imminence of the conversations in Paris on Saturday. When speaking on foreign affairs, I always find that the margin between platitudes on the one side, and indiscretions on the other, is much too narrow, and tonight the margin seems even narrower than usual. My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) spoke in a more moderate and reasonable vein than usual, if I may say so. He was still a rebel, but he was more constructive and reasonable than before. The Foreign Secretary did not come so badly out of it as he usually does. In fact, I thought it was quite a good evening for "The white hope of the black International." One of the main points which my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead made was about the Economic
  2560
  Commission for Europe, and I wish that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State were here to reply to this Debate, having just this moment arrived back from Geneva. Our views on the Economic Commission are well known. We took the initiative in building it up, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, in particular, has expended great care and time in fostering its development. But what I was not quite clear about was whether my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead was arguing that the Economic Commission for Europe was one of the things on which the Paris talks broke down. Of course, he cannot do anything like that, because it is not a fact. The Economic Commission for Europe was not an issue at the Paris talks. It might have been. It was forecast that it was going to be, but, in point of fact, anybody who followed them closely knows that that was not one of the reasons for the breakdown, and was not one of the issues.
  To what, then, does the hon. Member's argument amount? It amounts to this, that in spite of that fact, we should still try to place full responsibility, or a good degree of responsibility, on the Economic Commission in regard to these Marshall proposals. But, surely, it is clear that whatever might have been the case for using the Economic Commission with Russia in on the scheme, the case against using the Economic Commission now that Russia is out of the scheme, is overwhelming. To do so would be wholly impracticable. It could not act unanimously. There would be needless controversy and delay. To give an example, there is the question of voting procedure which my hon. Friend mentioned. At the first session there was a long debate as to what should be a majority in the Economic Commission. The Russians said it should be a two-thirds majority, and we and others felt that it should be a simple majority. After prolonged argument, it was agreed that, for the purpose of the first session only, it should be a simple majority, and the wrangle was postponed until the second session as to what the voting procedure then should be.
  If we were to take the Marshall proposal to the Economic Commission now, the first thing would be to settle the voting procedure. The second session of the Economic Commission is meeting now,

  2561
  and there has already been so much delay and difficulty that we have not even reached the stage of discussing the voting procedure. Clearly, if we were to put the whole of the Marshall initiative in the hands of the Economic Commission—there are arguments for it—there would be one enormous argument against it, and that is the tremendous delay which would undoubtedly result. I only give that voting procedure as one illustration.
  We are most anxious to use the organs of the United Nations. Our record as a Government is as good as that of any in the world in regard to the United Nations, and from the beginning we encouraged the Economic Commission. We shall keep the Secretary of the Commission and the Secretary-General informed. But we want dollars. We must put our whole weight behind the Marshall initiative, and I cannot accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that, at this stage, we should go to the Economic Commission.
  The second point was about the talks at Paris, and I cannot agree at all with his account of the breakdown of the talks. The occasion of the breakdown was that on the Russian side it was argued that this programme should be a statement only of the requirements of Europe, whereas on the French and British side it was argued that, in addition, it should be a statement of the resources of Europe and of how the European countries could help themselves towards carrying out reconstruction. That was the difference, and the most important aspect of that difference is that the second type of programme is in accordance with Mr. Marshall's invitation, while the first is not. The second attitude is, I think, the only reasonable hope of getting American help for Europe, and is the one, therefore, that we were right to adopt. We want to put the United States in a position to help Europe, and it seems as though the Russians did not. I cannot accept even the account of the hon. Member upon the asking for information about national plans. He is misinformed on this. In fact, the Russians never at any time suggested they contemplated that the programme should require information about the national plans of the different countries of Europe, or about their co-ordination, or about increases in exports or imports. The giving of that information was at no time suggested by the Russians, and they raised this peculiar
  2562
  issue, that the proposals were an infringement of national sovereignty.
  I suppose one can define sovereignty in such a way as to make that possible. I suppose one can so define sovereignty that almost any international ruling, even voluntarily entered into and voluntarily adhered to, is an infringement of national sovereignty. What was at issue was whether or not the resources of the participating nations should be looked at jointly to see what methods could be taken by sovereign Governments—on their own responsibility, without any outside pressure—to forward their mutual interests. That is all it was. There was nothing in that policy that was an infringement of bilateral agreements. How could that be termed an infringement of national sovereignty? Rather it could be looked at as a merging of sovereignty into a greater sovereignty, and that surely is the principle of international policy of any kind, the principle of the ideals and aims of the United Nations, a principle championed by the Labour Party since its very beginning. And I must say that I have no hesitation in describing the Russian Government's view of national sovereignty as one which would make Lenin turn in his grave. I think there is no doubt about that. What, after all, has happened to the purity of the Internationale? We shall have to rewrite the old song: "The Internationale unites the human race—provided there is no infringement of national sovereignty."
  On the subject of relations between the East and West of Europe, of course, I agree with the aims and principles laid down by the hon. Member for Gateshead. It is a platitude now to say that the East of Europe and the West of Europe need each other economically. The British Government have been saying that over and over again for months past. And not only saying it, but, as the Minister of Food showed the other day, acting on it, and getting trade agreements with Hungary, Poland and Yugoslavia. My colleague the Secretary for Overseas Trade is at this moment negotiating trade agreements with Soviet Russia. We entirely agree that that is essential for the healthy development of Europe. But I do not see that these Anglo-French proposals constitute any interference with any country's right to trade with whomever it likes. I see no reason whatever why the proposals should

  2563
  reduce the volume of trade between East and West.
  On the contrary, it should be pointed out that if only these countries of Eastern Europe came into the Marshall proposals it might well be that agricultural machinery and fertilisers would be available for them, which would very much increase their agricultural potential. Then, indeed, there would be a great agricultural increase and development in Europe. But the responsibility for their not coming in, and the responsibility for not getting that increase of trade cannot, of course, be laid at our door. Nor, I think, can it be laid at the door of the peoples of the countries of Eastern Europe, nor of the peoples of the countries of South-Eastern Europe. They know already where their economic interest lies; they know that their national plans for development cannot reach full success without close economic co-operation with the West. And they want it; they want those close economic ties with the West.
  How I wish the views and interests of those countries were better represented in the Governments they have. How I wish those elections had been free and fair, and that the urge for European unity could really make itself felt. Because let us make no mistake about what is holding up the urge for unity in Eastern Europe. It is the Communist elements in many of those Governments. That is a fact we must face. It is ironic indeed when one remembers that it was in the
  2564
  Communist manifesto that there first appeared the slogan: "Workers of the World Unite." What is holding up the workers of Eastern and Western Europe from uniting today is not, this time, the reactionary capitalists, not the lackeys of the bourgeoisie the social democrats. It is the Communist Party, which first invented the slogan.
  I have not much time, and I want to end on a slightly more hopeful note. Though I disagree with a great deal of the assumptions of my hon. Friend, I can give him the two assurances for which he asked me I can assure him that we certainly do not regard this breakdown as final, and that we have certainly not given up hope. If, for the moment, some of these countries will not play with us, then, most regretfully, we shall have to go on alone. But our objective of the economic unity of Europe remains. No doors have been slammed. No doors will be slammed by His Majesty's Government. Maybe the Paris talks will have made the choice before Europe clearer; possibly they will have brought nearer the date on which the choice must be made. But, as I say, the invitations are still open, and no doors are closed. We regard, as we have always regarded, the proper and healthy development of Europe to lie in close and cordial relations between East and West.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes past Ten o'Clock.

  DIVORCE LAW (AMENDMENT)
  DIVORCE LAW (AMENDMENT)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Japan (Private Trade Arrangements)
  Japan (Private Trade Arrangements)
  Factories (Development Areas)
  Factories (Development Areas)
  Controls
  Controls
  Timber Imports
  Timber Imports
  Straw (Price)
  Straw (Price)
  Raw Materials Allocation
  Raw Materials Allocation
EMPLOYMENT
  Lodging Allowances
  Lodging Allowances
  Football Pools (Employees)
  Football Pools (Employees)
  NATIONAL SERVICE (RELEASE PROGRAMME)
  NATIONAL SERVICE (RELEASE PROGRAMME)
COAL INDUSTRY
  Voluntary Absenteeism
  Voluntary Absenteeism
  Publicity (Cost)
  Publicity (Cost)
  Research Unit, South Wales
  Research Unit, South Wales
  Surface Workers Strike, Lancashire
  Surface Workers Strike, Lancashire
  RUMANIAN OIL
  RUMANIAN OIL
  PERFORMING ANIMALS (REGULATION)
  PERFORMING ANIMALS (REGULATION)
  FOREIGN VISITORS
  FOREIGN VISITORS
POLICE
  Public Order Act (Meetings)
  Public Order Act (Meetings)
  Widows' Pensions
  Widows' Pensions
  CORONERS' COURTS
  CORONERS' COURTS
  EIRE CITIZENS, WIDNES
  EIRE CITIZENS, WIDNES
  APPROVED SCHOOLS
  APPROVED SCHOOLS
  FOREIGN DOMESTIC WORKERS (CHILDREN)
  FOREIGN DOMESTIC WORKERS (CHILDREN)
  PRISON SENTENCE (MRS. LOUISA ADSETT)
  PRISON SENTENCE (MRS. LOUISA ADSETT)
  STATE OF ALDERNEY (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY)
  STATE OF ALDERNEY (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Vaccination (Lymph)
  Vaccination (Lymph)
  Prescription (Morphia)
  Prescription (Morphia)
  District Nursing Associations
  District Nursing Associations
  Regional Hospital Boards
  Regional Hospital Boards
  Alien Doctors and Pharmacists (Legislation)
  Alien Doctors and Pharmacists (Legislation)
  Mental Deficiency (Occupation Centres)
  Mental Deficiency (Occupation Centres)
  WATER SUPPLY, BLACKPOOL AND FYLDE
  WATER SUPPLY, BLACKPOOL AND FYLDE
  TEMPORARY IDENTITY CARDS, WIDNES
  TEMPORARY IDENTITY CARDS, WIDNES
  REQUISITIONED HOUSES (ORIGINAL OWNERS)
  REQUISITIONED HOUSES (ORIGINAL OWNERS)
BRITISH ARMY
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
  G.H.Q., Middle East (Prisoner-of-War Labour)
  G.H.Q., Middle East (Prisoner-of-War Labour)
  Retired Pay (1914–18 War)
  Retired Pay (1914–18 War)
  National Insurance Benefits (Delays)
  National Insurance Benefits (Delays)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Metal Containers
  Metal Containers
  Factory, Hapton
  Factory, Hapton
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Building Materials (Orders)
  Building Materials (Orders)
  Cement (Cotton Sacks)
  Cement (Cotton Sacks)
  Palace of Westminster (Fuel Consumption)
  Palace of Westminster (Fuel Consumption)
  Government Buildings (Fuel Consumption)
  Government Buildings (Fuel Consumption)
  LOCOMOTIVES (COAL-OIL CONVERSION)
  LOCOMOTIVES (COAL-OIL CONVERSION)
  CIVIL SERVICE (MANPOWER)
  CIVIL SERVICE (MANPOWER)
  NORTH OF SCOTLAND HYDRO-ELECTRIC BOARD (STOCK ISSUE)
  NORTH OF SCOTLAND HYDRO-ELECTRIC BOARD (STOCK ISSUE)
  TRINIDAD AND JAMAICA (WATERFRONT WORKERS)
  TRINIDAD AND JAMAICA (WATERFRONT WORKERS)
  AGRICULTURAL TENANCY, OXFORDSHIRE (TERMINATION)
  AGRICULTURAL TENANCY, OXFORDSHIRE (TERMINATION)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the Clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Earl of Lindsay—Took the Oath.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Motion for the Second Reading of the Public Offices (Site) Bill, and for the House to be put into Committee on the Fire Services Bill (which stand appointed for to-morrow) be advanced to this day.—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

INDUSTRIAL ORGANISATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.— (Lord Chorley.)
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Cherwell would have said a few words upon the Third Reading of this Bill, but he is obliged to be elsewhere, and he has asked me to make these few observations, in which I concur. He feels, and we feel, that if administered reasonably, as no doubt it will be, this Bill may in the long term be of considerable help in our drive for increased production. Like so many other Bills it has, I think, been improved in its passage through this House. It is common ground that the development councils which are to be set up under this Act can only serve a useful purpose
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if there is a reasonable measure of desire for them in the industry. For this reason, we are glad that the Government accepted the Amendment put down by my noble friend Lord Cherwell, which shows that there is no intention of setting them up unless a substantial proportion of persons engaged in business in the industry and of those employed in the industry desires them. We are glad also that the Government have inserted an Amendment safeguarding, so far as possible, firms from the risk of leakage of their secret processes through the medium of these councils. The Amendment laying down that the number of independent members should not exceed the number of members representing the employers and the employed is also one which we welcome.
I would venture to add this, and I should be glad to know if Lord Chorley agrees. The Government Amendment, inserted at the Report stage, saying that the Minister should consult interested organizations before appointing members of the development councils might, perhaps, be held to mean that the Minister should not consult appropriate organizations as to the independent membership of the Committee. I trust that this is not the intention of the Amendment, and that the Minister will be left free to consult these organizations. I gather from what the noble Lord silently indicates that he concurs. I imagine that the Minister would usually wish to consult the organizations not only as to their own representatives but also about the independent members he intends to nominate. I make these few observations really at the request of Lord Cherwell who has taken so great an interest in this Bill.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for the observations which he has made on this Bill. We are also very grateful to Lord Cherwell for his assistance in connexion with a number of these Amendments. I think that as amended this Bill has the support of noble Lords opposite, and I entirely agree with the noble and learned Viscount that if it is administered with good will on all sides it may well be a landmark in the development of British industry.
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

TRANSPORTS BILL
Further considered on Report (according to order).
Clause 99:
Provisions as to pension rights.
(3) Regulations made under this section shall not be invalid by reason that in fact they do not secure that persons having pension rights are not placed in any worse position by reason of any such amendment, repeal, revocation, transfer, extinguishment or winding up as is mentioned in the last preceding subsection, but if the Minister is satisfied or it is determined as hereinafter mentioned that any such regulations have failed to secure that result, the Minister shall as soon as may be make the necessary amending regulations.
Any dispute arising between the Minister and any person as to whether or not the said result has been secured by any regulations made under this section shall be referred to a referee or board of referees appointed by the Minister of Labour and National Service for his or their determination thereon.
(4) Without prejudice to the generality of the preceding provisions of this section, regulations made under this section may contain provisions authorising any person who, being a participant in any pension scheme to which the regulations relate, becomes a member of the Commission or of an Executive being treated as if his service as a member of the Commission or of an Executive, as the case may be, were service in the employment of the Commission, and the pension rights of any such persons resulting from the operation of any such provision shall not be affected by any provision of this Act which requires that the pensions, if any, which are to be paid in the case of members of the Commission or an Executive are to be determined by the Minister with the approval of the Treasury or by the Commission with the approval of the Minister and the Treasury.
VISCOUNT SIMON VISCOUNT SIMON moved, in subsection (3), to omit the last five words "his or their determination thereon," and insert "determination, and such reference shall be deemed to be an arbitration within the meaning of the Arbitration Acts, 1889 to 1934, and the provisions of those Acts relating to statutory arbitrations shall apply to such reference and determination."
The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, I rise to move the Amendment, the first on to-day's Marshalled List, which stands in the name of my noble friends the Earl of Dudley, Viscount Ridley and Lord Balfour of Burleigh, as well as myself. I may point out, in order to save time, that Amendments in these terms are also down in connexion with
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Clause 100 and Clause 102. If I may say what is in my mind, I dare say this will cover consideration of all three, though we are now dealing only with the Amendment called by the Lord Chancellor. Clause 99 deals with the provision as to pension rights; Clause 100 with the special provisions as to pension funds, and Clause 102, when we come to it, with the very important question of compensation to officers and servants in connexion with the transfer. All these three topics raise this question and those who are at all familiar with the process of the consolidation of public undertakings know it very well.
What is the fair and proper way in which to decide what is to be the pension position of a man who necessarily changes his employer when he ceases to serve the railway company and becomes a servant of the Transport Commission? And, again, what is the fair and proper way in which his case will be decided if there is a dispute as to the compensation he ought to receive, supposing as a result of this change there is loss of office or he is prejudiced in any other way? I go at once to the illustration which those who know our railway law will have thought of, but which is in the most remarkable manner departed from in the drafting of this Bill. In 1921 there was a great previous amalgamation of railway companies. There were hundreds of them and they were reduced to four, I think, on the whole, to the great advantage of everybody. I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Dukeston, here because he will be very familiar with this matter. It is a matter of the greatest importance to railway servants and officers when there is a transfer to a new organization. In the Act of 1921, in the Third Schedule, there is a provision which I have every reason to believe worked very well, and indeed it is sometimes called into operation even to-day. It is headed "Existing officers and servants." For the convenience of your Lordships I will summarize it in a few sentences. The provision is that where there is a question of pension rights or compensation there is to be appointed a standing arbitrator or board of arbitration by the Lord Chancellor, and if there is a dispute between a claimant and the new body—at that time it was one or other of the four companies, to-day it is the Transport Commission—that dispute

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should be settled by this arbitrator. There was an appeal to the abitrator so that the matter might be finally resolved.
I can speak with my own knowledge here; as it happens, I have had a little to do with this in the Law Courts in time past, and I think it has operated excellently. I am sure the great trade unions embracing railway servants will certainly say it has been a great shield to their rights. Because there is another way in which these things may be done: by saying, "You shall not have any arbitration; there will be no provision by Act of Parliament." In the one case, the men are to see every document supplied by the referee; in the other, there will be nothing approaching that kind of what I call fair play. There will simply be a decision by the referee. He will be nominated by the Minister and that is the end of it.
The question raised by my Amendment is, which of those two methods is right? If I may direct your Lordships' attention to the words of the Bill, you will see in how striking a way it departs from the principle and precedent and method which has always been employed and was especially introduced in the Railways Act of 1921. Clause 99 says, first of all, the Minister may make regulations for
"(a) for providing pensions to or in respect of—

(i) persons who are or have been in the employment of the Commission or any body in whom there vests or to whom there is transferred any undertaking or part of an undertaking under any of the provisions of a scheme or order made under this Act."

Of course, many of your Lordships know this great pension organization, this system set up in every great railway company by arrangement between themselves and those who serve the company, involving contributions from employer and men. The administration of this great pension organization is very necessary to the fair working and good working of the whole concern, and when it is transferred to a new undertaking, it is absolutely essential to have proper provision as to how, in the case of dispute, the men's rights to pension or compensation shall be fixed.
The way it was done in the Act of 1921 was to say that there must be a standing arbitrator or board of arbitration and the Arbitration Act applied. The way it is done here is this. If your Lordships look
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again at Clause 99, in the middle of page 112, you will see that the last paragraph in subsection (3) begins:
"Any dispute arising between the Minister and any person as to whether or not the said result has been secured….
And if your Lordships look a little higher on the page, you will see that the result to be secured is that the man in the new position shall not be placed in any worse position than he was in the old position, and he shall still have his equivalent rights, and not something else. Subsection (3) goes on, after "secured," to say:
"by any regulations made under this section shall be referred to"—
to what shall he be referred?—
"a referee or board of referees appointed by the Minister of Labour and National Service for his or their determination thereon."
I do not doubt that the Minister of Labour would discharge his duty here as carefully as he could but the point is that the decision of that referee may be a decision within the Department—it is final. The method can be that the papers of a particular case are selected, and are sent along to the referee with the comments of the Minister of Transport and his officials. There is nothing whatever to secure what in other actions we call "a man's rights''; that is to say, that he should know what is being said against him, and, that if there is a real dispute, the facts should be tried out fairly between the two sides. There is nothing whatever in this position which would cover that at all. If, indeed, there does arise—as there might arise, for instance, on these regulations that are going to be made—a question as to what a regulation means, there is nothing whatever in this to secure that he can have any arbitration which the Arbitration Act will give him, or the right to have a question of law decided by a High Court Judge.
Exactly the same thing is true of Clause 100. I am not seeking to argue all three cases at once; I merely use it as an illustration. A particularly remarkable one is in connexion with compensation. I only use it as an analogy. If your Lordships will look at subsection (3) of Clause 102, you will see there:
"Regulations made under subsection (1) of this section—

(a) may prescribe the procedure to be followed in making claims for compensation, and the manner in which and the persons by

403
whom the question whether any or what compensation is payable is to be determined; and

(b) may in particular contain provisions enabling appeals from any determination as to whether any or what compensation is payable to be brought, in such cases and subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by the regulations, to a referee…."

There is no magic or mystery about using the word "referee"; it merely means a person to whom the matter is referred. He is not necessarily especially qualified for the purpose, although I assume that every effort will be made to get a proper person.
But is it really right that, because we have now passed from days like 1921, and we have in power a different Government with different principles, to say, in reference to the dispossessed railwayman, or in reference to the man who fears that his pension rights are not being fairly provided for: "If you dispute it the matter shall go to a referee, and that is the end of it." I would respectfully suggest to your Lordships quite without any idea of appealing to one Party—though I appeal most definitely to the noble Lords opposite about this—Is it not right in such cases, where a man's whole position depends upon getting fair justice, to do what we seek to do in this clause, and following clauses, by this Amendment? I do not really care very much about the word "referee"; a man is neither more nor less qualified because you call him that. Even in such matters as popular athletics there are good referees and bad referees, though I understand if he is bad enough he may receive rough treatment either from the crowd or from the players. Nothing of that sort can happen here of course. Let us keep the word "referee" if it is any good to anybody. But we seek to add to subsection (3) a short paragraph which I will read, without actually removing the word "referee":
"and such reference shall be deemed to be an arbitration within the meaning of the Arbitration Acts, 1889 to 1934, and the provisions of those Acts relating to statutory arbitrations shall apply to such reference and determination."
The effect of that would be that when this referee has before him a dispute between a man and this new Commission, and he finds that the man is saying: "I
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am not getting my equivalent rights," the referee would not be able to decide the matter in his office. If there were a real dispute, he would have to do what is done to this day by an arbitrator under the Railways Act, 1921—he would have to hear it. I do not mean to say he would have to hear it with all the trappings and wigs, and that sort of thing. As a matter of fact, arbitrators, and those who appear before them, do not wear wigs. There is many a leader of labour industry who knows perfectly well how such an arbitration is conducted. A great point is that it is conducted perfectly fairly, and each side has got to know everything which the other side seeks to put before the arbitrator. If there is a dispute about a fact, the fact is decided by having the necessary people before the arbitrator, and proper questions are put to those people; and if there is a real dispute as to the meaning of, say, a regulation—and there are going to be heaps of regulations here, with the odd position that they are all going to be made after the measure is passed, and we do not know what they are at the present time—that is something which ought to be decided by a High Court Judge.
Let me give the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, if he will allow me, one analogy with which I am sure he is familiar. It so happens that I had a good deal to do with this in a former Government. At the beginning of the last war questions arose as to what was the proper war pension to award to a man who had received an injury in the war. At first, that was decided in the Ministry of Pensions, entirely as an administrative act, and the Minister of Pensions did his best. But some of your Lordships will recall the outcry that arose. It was said: "This is not fair. The Ministry of Pensions are deciding that this man cannot have a pension, when he ought to have a pension according to the law." When I was Lord Chancellor one of my duties was to devise a scheme of Pensions Tribunals, which should be Pensions Appeal Tribunals, at the top of each of which we put somebody who was qualified by being a barrister or solicitor, or something of the kind, and there were other members, too. Vast numbers of cases which had been decided against the applicant in the Ministry were, on appeal to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, decided in favour of the applicant. To that

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extent, everybody thought things were going very well. The Ministry of Pensions—an excellent Ministry—contributed all they could in the way of information, but the fact was that in a number of cases people had not got their rights. But it has not stopped there.
Now the demand has arisen—some of your Lordships have taken part in sustaining it—that if the War Pensions Tribunal goes wrong on a point of law, it ought to be the case that it should be decided by a High Court Judge. There is a very distinguished and accomplished High Court Judge, Mr. Justice Denning, who has delivered quite a number of decisions, in which he has tried to put this thing right, and I am sure has given great satisfaction to those concerned. It cannot always be decided one way or the other way, but, at least, we can try to get it right. All that I am asking, together with those who are associated with me, is that we should have something of that sort in connexion with the claims of these railwaymen or railway officials who are losing their jobs because they are not wanted any more and are therefore redundant. I imagine there cannot be as many officials wanted in many Departments—let us say, for instance, the Legal Department—if you have only one organization, as were wanted when there were a great many. There are certainly vast numbers of people employed in this industry of transport who are acutely anxious to know whether they are going to get under the new dispensation rights which are equivalent to their old rights.
I address myself particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Walkden, who is so persuasive and emphatic and understands this subject so very well. Does anybody really deny that it will be a great hardship on these people if they have simply to take the decision of a person who is nominated by a Minister and called a referee and then be told to go away? It is plainly the case that we should follow the method which was followed to the general satisfaction of everybody—and I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Walkden, will agree—when the railways were amalgamated after the 1914–1918 war, when it was expressly provided by Act of Parliament that these claims in case of dispute should ultimately be decided by a standing arbitrator or body of arbitrators, with the result that it has been essen-
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tial to the decision reached that both sides should be properly heard and that there should be no question of the matter being finally and for ever determined by a single referee who may be anybody you like. On the other hand, if the case needed it, it should be decided according to what is commonly called justice in this country, which means hearing both sides, if necessary on oath, reaching the facts without any private communication to the Judge and if need be—which does not very often happen but which sometimes happens—if there is a point of construction or law involved, having that matter determined on appeal.
That is my case. I hope I have made it in clear terms. I meant to put it in firm terms but at the same time I hope in moderate terms, because, if I may for a moment speak of my personal feelings, I do feel most deeply and sincerely that it is not right that we should put this great mass of people finally at the disposal of a gentleman, however eminent, who is called a referee. They ought to have what they had under the Act of 1921, the ordinary right of securing that their compensation or their pension in cases of dispute is really determined by a better process. I will not say more, and I hope very much that, however deeply the framers of this Bill may have thought, "This is no doubt the system; a referee will do," your Lordships' House will say it will not do, because we are bound to see that decent justice is done to people who have these serious claims. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
"Page 112, line 27, leave out from ("for") to end of line 28, and insert ("determination, and such reference shall be deemed to be an arbitration within the meaning of the Arbitration Acts, 1889 to 1934, and the provisions of those Acts relating to statutory arbitrations shall apply to such reference and determination").—(Viscount Simon.)
3.5 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, may I add a word or two to what the noble and learned Viscount has said upon this really important point? It does seem to me to be yet another illustration of the present-day tendency to prefer what I may call the more surreptitious forms of justice to the more normal forms to which we have been accustomed in the past. I think that tendency is one greatly, to be deplored. When lawyers, or those

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who have passed their lives in the law, intervene in this type of argument it is sometimes apt to be thought that they are only seeking to perpetuate the more elaborate aspects of the law. The last thing that I want is that every application under this particular procedure should be a State trial, but at the same time I am somewhat suspicious of the kind of fireside justice which it is more commonly sought to administer to-day.
All that is asked for in this Amendment is that the normal procedure should be observed. That normal procedure has grown up by a process of trial and error over a great many generations, and it is the one to which the applicant himself has grown acustomed, to which he looks forward to receiving, and which he expects to receive, when he presents his case before any tribunal charged with the administration of justice in this country. The illustration the noble and learned Viscount gave—of which from more than one angle I have a certain amount of secondhand experience—is a matter which very strongly confirms, in my submission, the argument now being addressed to your Lordships. It may be said that the procedure devised in this Bill is speedy and inexpensive. It may even be said that it has been used in other walks and that it has not proved too unsatisfactory. But in my view, I am afraid the fact that the administration of justice may be cheap and rapid is not satisfactory if it fails at the same time to be just. If this procedure may have been adopted in other fields without too audible complaint, the reason for that may be that the procedure itself, by providing no form of appeal and making the decision final, succeeds in strangling the normal method of complaint against that procedure. I very much hope that His Majesty's Government, on consideration, will find themselves in a position to accept this very vital Amendment.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, this is primarily a legal point, and it is with a good deal of trepidation that I follow the noble Viscount and the noble Marquess who have just spoken so strongly and so ably. I only want to tell your Lordships that this is a point of principle which is most important to the railway officers and servants upon which they feel very strongly indeed. As a railway
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director I support their point of view, but I would remind your Lordships that it covers not only railway officers and servants but all employees transferred under this Bill. In the absence of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, on the Committee stage of the Bill, I had the misfortune to move this Amendment in this place, and I am afraid I did not cover the ground nearly so adequately as he has been able to do to-day. But I did extract from the noble Lord, Lord Charley, the promise that this matter would be looked into very carefully by the Government between the Committee stage and the Report stage. I hope very much—in fact I feel certain—that in view of the strength of our arguments the Government will accept these Amendments.
All we are asking for is that the decision of the Ministry of Labour referee should be reviewable in the courts by way of case stated—that is to say, that there should be some appeal from the decision of the referee. Really, that is not an unreasonable thing for which to ask. The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, on the Committee stage of the Bill said:
"The situation under this Bill, and other Bills of a similar nature which are being introduced for the purpose of nationalizing certain of the basic industries of the country is on quite a different basis from that under the Railways Act of 1921, which was a measure purely for the purpose of co-ordinating a number of privately owned railway companies."
I cannot see what is the difference, and I hope that whoever is going to answer this afternoon will elaborate that point. What can be the difference between the one and the other? It is a question of fairness. If I were the Ministry of Labour referee I would far sooner know that there was a further court of appeal from my decision. No man is perfect in his judgment, and there will be some very difficult decisions to be made. It is surely only fair to the referee himself, as well as fair on these officers and servants, that these cases should be reviewable in the court of law. I think this is an Amendment that the Government should accept.
There is one more point I would like to make, which I do not think the noble Viscount made. There is a difference, as I am advised, between Clause 102 which deals with compensation, and Clauses 99 and 100, which deal with pensions.

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Whereas Clauses 99 and 100 provide for the determination of disputes by a claimant under the Pensions Regulations to be settled by a Ministry of Labour referee, Clause 102 permits the Minister in dealing with claimants under the compensation regulations to appoint, without any qualification at all, any person he determines. It may be one of the Ministry officials. Listen to what the subsection says:
"(3) Regulations made under subsection (I) of this section—

(a) may prescribe the procedure to be followed in making claims for compensation, and the manner in which and the persons by whom, the question whether any or what compensation is payable is to be determined."

The Minister is able, under that subsection, to appoint anybody he likes, one of his own officials, as referee, and the officer or servant has got to abide by the decision without any reference whatever to a court of appeal. I think the claim we make is a very reasonable one, and I hope noble Lords will support it to the full.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, I would like to support this Amendment. Like the noble Earl, Lord Dudley, I would not attempt to follow the noble and learned Viscount who moved, in view of the legal aspects of the question; but again, like the noble Earl, I feel strongly that it is very important for us to see that all these cases are properly dealt with. We had a lot of discussion on the Committee stage on these three clauses. We had an Amendment on Clause 100 which was thought to put the railway employees in a rather better position than others brought in under this Bill; but as the Amendments now are, they cover all the employees of every industry which comes in. One cannot but feel anxious to know that there is a possibility of appeal. The existing system shows very carefully how this is to be done. I think it is common knowledge that it still is being done in a number of cases. Appeals are still being made as a result of the 1921 Act, and no doubt there will be quite a number following on this Act.
I would like to refer to Clause 102 dealing with compensation. There was a debate on that also on Second Reading. It was then said on behalf of the Government that discussions had been held
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between the Government and some of the trade unions who were interested in this matter on behalf of their members—very properly, I have no doubt. But this goes a little further in that it covers the whole range of employees, and officials of all kinds who are not members of trade unions. Their interests had not been covered by such a discussion, and it is perfectly proper to make the point that the whole thing has not been adequately or completely dealt with. This is rather a different point, because we then asked to widen the regulations made under Clause 102. We wanted to put into the Bill some of the detailed wording which comes out of the Third Schedule of the 1921 Act. That is proposed to be done in the further Amendment proposed by the noble Viscount. I hope the Government will be able to meet us on these Amendments.
3.17 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I regret that we are not able to accept this series of Amendments. I promised at the Committee stage in answer to an appeal by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, that we would, in fact, in the light of the discussion and of very urgent representations which were made by noble Lords opposite on this matter, look into it very carefully. The Ministers have now done so, and discussed it. As a result of this careful deliberation they have come to the conclusion that the method provided by the Bill is the most satisfactory for dealing with this type of case.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Satisfactory to whom?
LORD CHORLEY: Satisfactory from the point of view of everybody concerned —except possibly the legal profession.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I hope the noble Lord will not make that kind of comment. It is a rather cheap insinuation. I think we made it quite clear that we were supporting this Amendment from a very real conviction and not for any other reason at all.
NOBLE LORDS: Withdraw.
LORD CHORLEY: I certainly withdraw anything that noble Lords may regard as insinuations. I was not intending to say any such thing. Quite obviously, the arguments put forward by

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noble Lords this afternoon are very important arguments. They propose to carry the argument rather further than it was taken at the Committee stage, in particular the argument of the noble and learned Viscount, who dealt with matters which were not then put forward. But as I have said, taking this matter by and large, the arrangements suggested in the Bill are the most satisfactory for handling this problem. The noble and learned Viscount based his case first on the arrangements made under the Railways Act of 1921, which, he said, had worked very satisfactorily, and I have no doubt that that is true; but that Act dealt with a rather different situation from that which now exists. That was an amalgamation of a number of private companies.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: What is fair in one case must surely be fair in the other?
LORD CHORLEY: This is one of a series of measures dealing with a range of basic industries; and it does seem to the Government that the two situations are not the same. The noble and learned Viscount also suggested that this system of referees was, as he called it, a new system—some sort of a hole-and-corner method of dealing with a perfectly genuine grievance of an employee under one of the companies concerned. With respect, that is not really so, because this is a system which, in one way or another, has been given a pretty careful trial over a number of years. It is quite true that the trade unions, who do represent the bulk of the people concerned with those businesses, have been consulted in relation to this matter and they take no exception to the method which is laid down in this Bill.
After all the Electricity Supply Acts, and the great problem of unemployment insurance—a matter which has been dealt with very successfully under umpires from whose decisions there is no appeal—have been administered not only without complaint, but with real satisfaction to the men, and indeed the women concerned, over a period of very difficult times, as your Lordships know before the war. If that system could be administered so successfully and with such satisfaction to the people who were acutely concerned with it, then
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surely there is no ground for saying that under this Bill, and under all the other Bills which are equally well administered a similar success will not be possible. This hearing before a referee is not a hole-and-corner method.
Then, of course, there is the question of the appeals, which was very closely argued during the Committee stage by the noble Earl, Lord Dudley. The reply to that was that it seemed better to secure a quick decision—a quick and inexpensive decision—rather than to have protracted litigation going backwards and forwards to the Courts, with the whole thing kept in the melting pot for a substantial period of time. It is obvious that the sort of arrangements will be made which have been made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour and National Service under the Electricity Supply Acts. Under these arrangements a referee with not only considerable legal experience but also—which, I submit, is more important —with experience of industry and the industrial background against which this administration will take place should be appointed.
In those circumstances, I do suggest to your Lordships that the arrangements made in the Bill are, on the whole, the most satisfactory. I cannot really draw any distinction between different clauses. The noble Earl, Lord Dudley, did draw a distinction under Clause 102, subsection (3), but he omitted to refer to sub-paragraph (b), under which the referee who will take appeals will be appointed not by the Minister under this Bill, but by the Minister of Labour and National Service.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, if I may say one word, I have been in conference with my right honourable friend and his officers concerned, and perhaps I might offer a suggestion which would provide a way out of this matter. The case has been stated by the noble Lord as to the view of the Ministry on the matter, but we are greatly impressed by the case which the noble and learned Viscount has put. He, with myself, would regret that this matter should be settled by Division if that can be avoided, but, at the same time, it is desirable, I think, that further opportunity for consideration of the matter should be made available. If we can agree that the Amendment should be accepted on the understanding that we may, in another place or in some other

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way, have to suggest perhaps some modification, I would suggest that we should accept the Amendment now and cut short the discussion on this and other Amendments accordingly.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am sure we are all very grateful to the Leader of the House for the suggestion that he has put forward. We do think that the case for this Amendment is extremely strong, and we welcome his proposal that the Amendment should be inserted in the Bill. We fully realize that the matter will have to be considered in another place.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 112, line 42, leave out ("the Minister and").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VSCOUNT ADDISON VSCOUNT ADDISON moved, after subsection (4), to insert:
"(5) Nothing in this section shall authorise the making of regulations relating to an existing pension scheme which provide for the payment by any person carrying on an undertaking or part of an undertaking in which persons to whom that scheme relates are employed, being an undertaking which, or such part of an undertaking as, has not vested in or been transferred to the Commission or any body by or under this Act or any scheme or order made thereunder—

(a) of contributions in respect of the services of persons who are no longer employed in that undertaking or part of an undertaking rendered after they cease to be so employed; or

(b) of contributions in respect of persons who are employed in that undertaking or part of an undertaking in excess of the contributions provided for by the existing pension scheme."

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is in consequence of an undertaking given to the Earl of Selkirk in Committee. He proposed an Amendment on these lines, to make sure that the obligation did not extend to persons to whom it ought not properly to extend, and my right honourable friend promised that he would give further consideration to meet the point. I think it is effectively met by this Amendment, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 112, line 43, at end insert the said new subsection.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Viscount for making this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
3.27 p.m.
Clause 100 [Special provisions as to railway and canal pension funds, etc.]:
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. It has already been accepted.
Amendment moved—
Page 113, line 28, after ("referred") insert ("for determination").—(The Earl of Dudley,)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 113, line 30, leave out from ("Service ") to ("and") in line 31 and insert ("and such reference shall be deemed to be an arbitration within the meaning of the Arbitration Acts, 1889 to 1934, and the provisions of those Acts relating to statutory arbitrations shall apply to such reference and determination").—(The Earl of Dudley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, this, too, is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 113, line 31, leave out ("that decision") and insert ("such determination"). —(The Earl of Dudley.)
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, I am very grateful for the way in which the suggested course has been adopted, but I hope it will be made clear that the putting in of these Amendments for the time being is the act of the whole House, and not merely the act of the Opposition. It seems to me that in that form, when the Amendments come to be considered in another place, there may be some aspects which fall to be considered generally on their merits without risk of controversy.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 114, line 7, leave out ("the Minister and").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 102 [Compensation to officers and servants in connexion with transfers]:
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, this is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 115, line 37, at end insert—
("(3) Any dispute between the Commission and an officer or servant as to whether any or what compensation is payable under this section or any regulation made thereunder shall be referred to a referee or board of referees appointed by the Minister of Labour and National Service for determination and such reference shall be deemed to be an arbitration within the meaning of the Arbitration Acts, 1889 to 1934, and the provisions of those Acts relating to statutory arbitrations shall apply to such reference and determination").—(The Earl of Dudley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF DUDLEY: My Lords, this is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 115, line 40, leave out from ("compensation") to end of subsection (3)— (The Earl of Dudley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
3.19 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved, after subsection(3) to insert:
"(4) No regulations shall be made under this section unless a draft thereof has been laid before Parliament and has been approved by Resolution of each House of Parliament."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a rather different matter, but I venture to hope very sincerely that we may arrive at the same unanimous conclusion about putting this Amendment into the Bill, as we have been fortunately able to do in regard to the last Amendments. This proposed new subsection arises out of the suggestion made by the noble Lord opposite, Viscount Swinton, which was made in response to the Amendment I moved on the Committee stage, seeking to put in a new clause, which would have preserved for the railwaymen something similar to the rights they have under the Third Schedule of the 1921 Act. The noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, was unable to accede to that but he was good enough to make a response to the suggestion of the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, that draft regulations to be laid in advance might be a way out.
I have some ground for hoping that this will be acceptable to the Government, particularly on looking through once
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again the proceedings of the Committee stage, because the noble Lord, Lord Walkden, in refusing to accept my new clause used these words:
"In the national health service, which is coming into operation soon, any person adversely affected will be eligible for consideration on regulations issued by the Minister. The same applies to the national insurance service, and also in regard to the mines nationalization. That kind of structure, to provide compensation, protection, safeguards, pension rights, and so on, by regulations, has become a common form. That has all been agreed and settled, and I think properly settled.''
And I am happy to tell your Lordships that in the National Insurance Act, 1946, there is precisely this provision for laying regulations in draft, so that the noble Lord, Lord Walkden, in resisting my former Amendment was in fact conceding the whole case for this one. In those circumstances, I do not think I need labour the matter very much, although it has been rather disappointing to us that this Amendment had to come from our side and not from the noble Lord's side. However, provided we get the Amendment and it is all settled that we can put it into the Bill, I need not waste your Lordships' time. If necessary, I could give your Lordships other very apt analogies for doing this, but, in the earnest hope that the Amendment will be accepted, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 116, line 7, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, we have discussed this, as my noble friend said we promised we would, and the Government have agreed to a scheme similar to the one under the National Health Service Act, that regulations shall be laid in draft, but I should make a little reservation as to whether the procedure should be the positive or negative procedure. There are some points which have arisen with respect to that which I should not like to be regarded as completely definite; but, for the time being, and subject to that qualification, I am glad to accept the Amendment and give the opportunity for which noble Lords contended that the regulations should be seen in draft before they assume their final form.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, this would be a convenient form and I am very glad the Government have accepted

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it. I believe we shall find that this is greatly to the advantage of everybody concerned and that actually it will mean a saving of time. One is always in the difficulty that even if one is not greatly concerned whether it is a positive or a negative Resolution, under our rather archaic procedure the order and regulations are made and they cannot be amended even if the slightest mistake is found either by the critics or by the Government Department themselves. I know from experience that, in going through a regulation again, one suddenly finds that one has lost sight of something; one has to withdraw the whole of the regulation and go through the whole procedure once more. Even if it is only the tiniest alteration that is required it cannot be made. The order has to be withdrawn and again presented, and again the statutory period has to run. I think it would be a very interesting experiment to see how this works. I have always taken the view that you could not put everything you wanted to about this into an Act of Parliament, and that you would have to deal with it by regulation.
It one lays regulations in draft, then there is the chance of going through them all and any points can be taken on which criticism arises. The Minister himself also has the chance of setting right any oversight that there may have been on his side. Then nobody divides about it; there is no question of the Government being defeated, or anything of that sort. The draft regulations are fully discussed and then taken away. The Department is given them, and the very next day the regulations can be laid with the time to run. I think it is a very practicable solution. I know it has greatly appealed to the Leader of the. House from the very start, and I am glad we are able to agree to it; I believe it will be to everybody's convenience.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 103:
Compensation to officers and servants in other cases.
103.—(1) The Minister shall not regard as satisfactory for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 1 of the Eighth Schedule to this Act any scheme which provides for the transfer of the whole or any part of any undertaking, and shall not give his approval to any agreement providing for the transfer of the whole or any part of an undertaking which,
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under any provision of this Act, requires his approval, unless he is satisfied that appropriate provision has been or will be made by the scheme or agreement for the payment by the transferee in the appropriate cases and to the appropriate extent of compensation to officers and servants who suffer loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments or pension rights or whose position worsened in consequence of the transfer in question.
4.46 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved in subsection (1), to leave out "officers and servants"and insert "persons." The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 103 deals with compensation to officers and servants, and the purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that all people who come under this definition of officers and servants do in fact receive the compensation to which they would be justly entitled. I would like to say at once—because I feel there has been a little misunderstanding with the noble Lords opposite; I am reinforced in that view by the remarks that fell from the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, on the Committee stage—that this Amendment is not intended in any way to try to obtain compensation for a part-time director.
I must just very shortly give the structure of the passenger road transport industry. As probably most noble Lords know it consists very largely of groups of operating companies controlled by holding companies and those operating companies are quite independent companies but, in order to save expense, the holding companies have certain departments which serve the group as a whole. That is to say, there is a department, for instance, dealing with insurance; there is another department, the Chief Engineer's department, dealing with engineering problems for the group as a whole; there is another department which does the bulk buying for all the operating companies.
Let us visualize what would happen when these schemes come into being and the road passenger transport industry is gradually taken over. For instance, supposing the scheme was made whereby the Northern General Omnibus Company was taken over: that would, of course, take away part of the employment of the Chief Engineer's Department and also the insurance department. Probably, when one operating company was taken away, they would go on but gradually, of course,

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it would become uneconomic to continue to run those departments, and eventually they would cease to exist. The people employed in those departments on full-time employment would cease to have jobs, or, at any rate, their jobs would become so small that their salaries would have to be reduced. Even when the whole of the road passenger transport industry was taken over, obviously the holding companies would still exist—B.E.T. and companies of that sort would still exist—which would never be taken over as such by the Commission.
But these particular people to whom I have been referring would, in fact, lose their employment and would be entitled to, and should have, compensation. The difficulty is that none of them is employed by any particular operating company that is in fact taken over. I, therefore, consider that the Amendment standing in my name is necessary in order to ensure that the class of people to which I have just referred get a proper pension. I do not know, but possibly the noble Lord opposite might like to put the wording in a slightly different way. He will, however, I think agree that it is only fair that those people should receive compensation on exactly the same terms as the direct servants of the operating road transport company. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 116, line 37, leave out ("officers and servants") and insert ("persons").—(Lord Gifford.)
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Gifford raised this matter in Committee, and it has since been considered; but I have to inform the House that in the view of the Ministry it would be a great mistake to substitute the word "persons" for the words "officers and servants" which are now in the Bill. "Officers and servants" is a specific kind of expression, and when you use it you know to whom you are referring. "Persons" may be any individuals, who may be performing any duty, no duty or very little duty. It has a very wide and peculiar definition, and we certainly do not think it is to be preferred to such a precise legal term as "officers and servants." We have every sympathy with the persons whom the noble Lord has in mind (I am calling them "persons" now, being slightly inconsistent) and if they are em-
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ployed by any subsidiary company which is wholly owned by concerns we are taking over, they would, I am advised, qualify for compensation if they were injured by the transaction. But they must not be partly this and partly that. We have reason to fear that the term "persons" might be held to apply also to directors.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, may I be allowed to interrupt the noble Lord for a moment. It appears to me that he has got the whole thing in reverse, if I may so put it. What the noble Lord has said is that a company would be taken over and the people to whom I have been referring would be the people employed by the subsidiary. That is not the case I have in mind at all. The case I visualize is that in which the Commission would take over a subsidiary. That subsidiary might be, say, "The Midland Red, "the "Northern General" or the "Southdown." Now, the people of whom I speak are not employed by the subsidiary, but by the holding company, the big company controlling all those concerns. They are the type of people who deal with insurance, engineering problems for the whole group, and so on. The holding company —such as B.E.T. or Tillings—surely would continue to exist, but the subsidiary company would be taken over. In no sense are any of the people I have mentioned employed by the subsidiary company.
LORD WALKDEN: Whether it is a subsidiary company or a holding company, or whatever company it may be, that is taken over, seems immaterial in this connexion. If the persons whom the noble Lord has in mind are employed in undertakings that are wholly controlled by the concerns we are taking over, then those people, in the circumstances which he described, would be eligible to be compensated for injury which they might suffer. I beg him to accept my assurances that every fair and proper case would be properly covered. But we cannot undertake to have loose words inserted that might be stretched to cover people who have no real claim to compensation but who might thereby be encouraged to come along and seek to claim public money.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble Lord opposite has said to the effect that the term "officers and servants" covers the

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kind of people whom we mean better than the word "persons." They are the words used in many Acts of Parliament and they are the right words. But although my noble friend, Lord Gifford, has drafted his Amendment wrongly, I think he is on to a good point, and I want to be quite sure that it is covered. It will be recalled that we had some discussion on this matter both in debate and outside. We do not wish to bring in anyone who is not entitled to compensation, and I quite agree that "persons" could mean all sorts of people. On the other hand you might find someone who is purely an officer or servant, who is completely employed, full-time, in the business which is taken over, but technically and legally he is not an officer or servant of an undertaking which is, in terms, taken over. He may be an officer or servant of some entity which is created and owned by half a dozen units which, under the Bill, are going to be taken over, and there may be variants of that kind of employment. We want to be assured that that person, if he loses his employment (I am speaking of the man who has been a whole-time officer or servant in the structure of this industry), will be fairly compensated for injury. If he had been directly an officer or servant of one of the companies which is being taken over, of course he would get his compensation. Though the Amendment does not seem to me to be well designed to carry it out, what is desired to be achieved is what I have indicated. I shall be very grateful if between now and the Third Reading this could be looked at in order to make sure that the people whom the Government, as well as we, want to see covered, are, in fact, covered.
LORD WALKDEN: We are most anxious to be fair to everyone. If there is a person who is, so to speak, collectively employed by a group of companies, it seems to me there is a case for consideration. We will look into this to see what we can do to make sure that the operation of this clause is fair to all.
LORD GIFFORD: I am very grateful for that undertaking. I feel sure that there is no difference between us on this point. We all want to see that the people who are entitled to compensation shall get it. I would like just to make this final
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point. It may be that some of these people will not lose their entire employment, but only half or three-quarters of it, because of part of the group being taken over. I think that the question of partial compensation ought to be considered in relation to such cases. In view of the assurance which the noble Lord has given me, I am happy to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved at the end of subsection (1) to insert:
"and is satisfied that such compensation is not less favourable to the recipient than that payable in a comparable case under the preceding section of this Act relating to undertakings transferred to the Commission under Part II of this Act."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think that this Amendment is self-explanatory. Its sole purpose is to make sure that the employees of the road transport industry, and other employees it the transport industry, are treated on at least the same basis as the railway employees are treated under the previous Part of this Bill. It is undoubtedly true to say that people employed in the road passenger transport industry are as secure in their employment as are those employed in the railway industry. They are employed for long periods whether by municipalities or by private operators, and it is only fair that when it comes to compensation they should be treated on a footing of equality with the railway men. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 116, line 40, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Gifford.)
LORD WALEDEN: My Lords, I am sorry to say that we cannot accept this Amendment. Really, there is not a proper and adequate comparison to be made between road motor transport employees and the regular railway people. The railway people have had their position stabilized over 120 years. It has been regularized and it has been codified under one or two Acts of Parliament. In their case everything is pretty clear. In the case of the road transport workers matters are altogether different. Among the transport concerns which the Government will be taking over there will, undoubtedly, be some substantial ones, but there will also be small ones which run perhaps only

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two or three vehicles. It may be that in some cases the businesses taken over will be those of small men who have not been running them for very long, and in such cases employees often have no great stability or security of tenure. The cases are altogether different. Different considerations arise, and different regulations will have to be drafted for each group of people. In the case of the dock people, for example, there are very different conditions to be taken into consideration from those which apply in the case of the railway people.
I think that your Lordships will follow the point more easily if I say that the railway people are comparable to established civil servants, postmen, clerical workers and others, who are recognized and established. The road transport industry is something which is comparatively new; it is different in very many ways from the railway industry and the position of its employees will have to be considered separately. I do not know whether there will be much difference, but we cannot guarantee that they will be treated on the same lines as the regular railway workers. I ask the noble Lord not to press this Amendment, and I assure him that everything will be done to give fair play and every possible consideration to these people, from every point of view, when regulations are drafted.
THE EARL OF ROTHES: My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Walkden, has said to the effect that there is clearly a difference between these two branches of the transport industry. During the Committee stage we said that some precedent was wanted to be taken as a basis of compensation and suggested the Local Government Act, 1933. On Committee stage it was said that an undertaking will be given for road transport as well as railways and I ask the noble Lord if that undertaking still stands. I do ask him in considering this to bear in mind that a very large proportion of the road transport industry, although comparatively new as compared with the railways, has offered very steady employment for a very large and growing number of people, many of whom have been employed for twenty and thirty and some for forty years. People who have served a very important modern industry for that length of time well and faithfully
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deserve most careful consideration on the question of any compensation for loss of office that might arise.
LORD GIFFORD: My noble friend Lord Rothes has put it very clearly. It is not fair to say the road passenger transport industry is a new industry. It is old enough for many of its officers and servants to have been employed for a whole lifetime, and I feel that every consideration should be given to them. I hope the noble Lord will look into it again and see if we can get some definite basis for compensation. If he does that, I shall be very happy to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 106 [Procedure and enforcement of orders of arbitration tribunal]:
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment, for the purpose of bringing Scottish procedure into line with English procedure in relation to proceedings which under this Part of the Bill are to be treated as Scottish proceedings.
Amendment moved—
Page 119, line 34, leave out from ("unless") to the end of line 37 and insert ("the Court of Session or the House of Lords give leave to appeal to the House of Lords, which leave may be given on such terms as to expenses or otherwise as the Court of Session or the House of Lords may determine").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, in accordance with the arrangement that has been made, may I suggest the House should now adjourn until six o'clock. We shall then proceed with our business without adjourning for dinner.
[The Sitting was suspended at five minutes before four o'clock and resumed at six o'clock.]
Clause 114:
Additional compensation to local authorities.
(2) The undertakings to which this section applies are—

(a) any undertaking of a local authority which falls to be transferred under Part II of this Act;

(b) any undertaking which, at the passing of this Act, is being carried on by a local authority, being an undertaking which could be transferred to the Commission or to some other body as aforesaid under a scheme under Part IV of this Act;

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and the expression "the appropriate sum" means, in relation to any undertaking to which this section applies, such sum as may be specified in relation to that undertaking by regulations made by the Minister, so, however, that the total of all the appropriate sums for undertakings the activities whereof consist wholly or partly of operating passenger road transport services does not exceed two and a half million pounds and the total of all the appropriate sums for other undertakings does not exceed two hundred thousand pounds.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved, in subsection (2), to substitute "orders" for "regulations" ["regulations made by the Minister"] The noble Earl said: My Lords, Clause 114 deals with the compensation payable to local authorities. I would like to say that I think the local authorities have, by and large, come rather poorly out of this Bill altogether. I asked a question yesterday in regard to Clause 25, and the noble Lord who replied did not appear to be aware that that was the main clause under which the municipal authorities were to be transferred. I was endeavouring to get some information in regard to the nature of that transfer. This is the additional clause to that, in which certain sums are payable for special reasons. There is a global sum fixed of£2,500,000. What I am asking His Majesty's Government is that either they will accept some means of representation in regard to the way in which this sum is to be allocated or, alternatively, will accept this Amendment, which means to say that presentation of the case can be made by special Parliamentary procedure, in special cases, before a Select Committee of both Houses, or of one House.
When I raised this point in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, said that he imagined the calculation was based on 1¼ per cent. of the gross takings. I submit that that is manifestly unfair in certain cases, because one municipal undertaking may have a much higher value than another municipal undertaking—they may, in other words, have similar gross takings for in fact two quite different qualities of service—and there is no consideration here for prudent management, which could be given. I think it must be clear that local authorities in different parts of the country have very different circumstances, which should be taken into consideration when this sum comes to be divided. It is no good expecting local authorities to agree, because
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the sum is, in fact, grossly inadequate compared with the value of the assets which the Transport Commission are taking over. For instance, I think in this House it would be difficult to get an agreement on a division of one pint of beer, because it is quite inadequate for the consumption of all the parties immediately concerned. I do not think we could expect complete agreement among the local authorities, but there ought to be proper provision for presentation and hearing of the argument, because there are a number of special considerations.
I did ask the noble Lord, Lord Morrison, if he could tell me something about the considerations which applied to Glasgow. There the situation is unique. The case has been presented and, so far as I know, no recognition has been made. The transport undertaking belongs entirely to the Common Good of the City of Glasgow. It does not belong to the ratepayers as such. It is, in fact, a trust which is held for all the citizens of Glasgow, and must be used, under certain rules, for their benefit. The moneys which are in fact invested in the transport undertaking could have been used for any purpose. They could have been invested in Government securities, or could have been used for any purpose whatsoever. What it amounts to is that this trust money, which is being used for the benefit of all the citizens of Glasgow, is in fact being taken over by the Transport Commission, or may be taken over by the Transport Commission, to the extent of £10,000,000. That is a very considerable sum. What I am submitting in this case is that there should be laid down in this Bill a proper and orthodox procedure by which the special circumstances of this and possibly other cases can properly be presented for consideration when compensation is being dealt with.
The local authorities have not come very well out of this bargain. I do not know whether or not they are satisfied, but I do know that there is only one manner of agreement between His Majesty's Government and the local authority, and that is that there should be compensation. As to the global sum of compensation, there was no agreement. His Majesty's Government say there were negotiations. I submit that the negotiations in this sense were very similar to the word "consultation," in another

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sense in which it was used in this House not very long ago. That is to say, they were told to come, and were asked their views, and then they were given the answer without any form of agreement. In these terms, I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 123, line 35, leave out ("regulations")and insert ("orders").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I must say at the outset that I am a little surprised that the noble Earl should at this late stage of the proceedings in this Bill have raised the question of the adequacy or inadequacy of the global sum. I do not think the Amendment directly raises that question. What I thought he was concerned about in the Amendment was as to the inadequate and improper method of the proposed distribution of the sum. It is to that point that I want to direct my remarks. The noble Earl, as he well remembers, and I well remember, raised this question before and, as he has rightly said, I then pointed out that, as I understood, the amount was based on 1¼ per cent. of the gross revenues of municipal transport and dock undertakings in Great Britain, on a five years basis. I can only say to the noble Earl, as I said before, that the Minister has given a most explicit undertaking to the Association of Municipal Corporations and the Association of Counties and Cities in Scotland that he will consult with those Associations with a view to arranging an equitable distribution of the global sums among the individual authorities. When a global sum of this character is involved, it seems to me that the principles of distribution must be agreed, and there is no one who can agree them better than the Associations of the local authorities concerned. If at some subsequent date some individual local authority were to seek, through special Parliamentary procedure, for a bigger share for itself, obviously this could only be at the expense of other local authorities. A share-out of this character is clearly a matter for agreement between the representatives of the local authorities, with the Minister holding the ring administratively, and is quite inappropriate for special Parliamentary procedure.
During the discussion in Committee on similar Amendments, the noble Earl asked
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how the sum of £2,500,000 had been arrived at. I have already explained upon what basis it was proposed to allocate it amongst the local authorities concerned. I said in reply, if I may repeat it, that the global sum was arrived at after negotiation, and the Minister had given an explicit undertaking to the Association of Municipal Corporations and to the Association of Counties and Cities in Scotland that he would consult with those associations with a view to arranging an equitable distribution of the global sums.
With regard to the question of the Common Good fund of the City of Glasgow, which the noble Earl raised on a previous occasion and has now raised again, the only explanation I can give as to that is that the position is that if any item of the nature intended to be reflected in the £2,500,000 to compensation has hitherto been met out of the Common Good, a proportionate part of the Glasgow Corporation's share of such compensation will be available for allocation to that account.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Lord for what he has said, but I must say that it is not very satisfactory. I am astonished to hear that he should have any doubt that the sum allocated to local authorities is inadequate. If I may make the point I made before, it is that the amount of assets in the Common Good of Glasgow alone is £10,000,000, and the total for the whole of the United Kingdom is £2,500,000. It is palpably obvious that the sum is totally inadequate to cover what would be called normally repayment for the undertakings taken over, but if the noble Lord is unable to give further information I can only regret it and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.10 p.m.
LORD MORRISON LORD MORRISON moved, after Clause 115, to insert the following new clause:
Treatment of Travel Agencies.
"The Commission shall secure that, in the treatment, in like circumstances, of travel agencies, no discriminatory practices are introduced after the date of transfer as between travel agencies which are directly or indirectly controlled by the Commission and other travel agencies existing at the date of the passing of this Act, or as between such other travel agencies."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, moved an

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Amendment which was discussed on June 12 and was withdrawn on the understanding that the Government would put down a new clause. The difficulty seen about the clause which the noble Viscount proposed is that any travel agency, whatever its size or date of inception, could claim precisely similar treatment to that afforded to any established agency. This might mean, for example, that whatever the credit facilities allowed to Thomas Cook & Son or any other reputable and established concern, these would have to be equally extended to anyone who in future cared to set up a travel agency run from a back room. The present Government Amendment is designed to secure that so far as existing travel agencies are concerned, the Commission shall not discriminate in like circumstances either between those agencies or between agencies which they control and other agencies. "In like circumstances" is taken from a corresponding provision in subsection (3) of Section 1 of the Air Navigation Act, 1947, which relates to the operation of chartered aircraft. The clause, as drawn, does not discriminate between British and foreign travel agencies, and this meets the point of the noble Earl, Lord Selborne. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 115 insert the said new clause. —(Lord Morrison.)
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved to amend the proposed Amendment by inserting after "introduced," the words "or permitted." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am sure we are most grateful to the noble Lord for this new clause. I did mention this point when we were discussing an Amendment to Clause 13 which was subsequently withdrawn, and the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, kindly gave me permission to put down a small Amendment. The Commission will have everything the travel agent requires—that is to say, sleeping berths, reserved seats and, through Thomas Cook & Son, wagon-lits on Continental trains. It is only human nature that the ordinary officials of the company will try to keep these things inside the concern, and I think it is necessary, in order that the travel agency should get a fair deal, that the Commission should appoint an agency manager, or whatever it is, who will actually ginger up people inside the organization and see that the
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organizations do get their fair share of sleeping berths. Therefore, I have moved that the words "or permitted" should be added after the word "introduced" in the third line, in order to ensure that the staff of the Commission give the travel agencies a fair share of all the things which I have just mentioned. I beg to move.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
In line 3, after ("introduced") insert ("or permitted").—(Lord Gifford.)
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, the Government Amendment itself, as your Lordships know, was the result of discussions between Second Reading and the Report stage, and the words were agreed. The noble Lord, Lord Gifford, thought they needed strengthening somewhat and has put down this Amendment. I do not agree with what he said about human nature, and I assure him that there will not be any tendency to be unfair to anybody. The purpose of everybody in a responsible position is to see that the right thing is done, and if they do not live up to that they will soon be caught out. We have given consideration to the words which it is suggested we should insert to strengthen the clause. With great respect to the noble Lord the Amendment is really quite unnecessary. It is the Commission which shall secure that, in the treatment, in like circumstances, of travel agencies, no discriminatory practices are introduced. The business is the Commission's and to say "introduced or permitted" is quite unnecessary. The Commission would not permit themselves to do anything wrong; they are inhibited from introducing anything wrong and, therefore, the wording is quite all right. I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD ALTRINCHAM: My Lords, I should reveal the fact that I am interested in this question because I am a director of the Wagon-lits Company, and its interest is to see that its services are dealt with fairly in this country. I am not entirely satisfied by the argument produced by the noble Lord, Lord Walkden. It is perfectly true, of course, that the Commission are not to be suspected of discriminatory practices of any kind—no one would dream of that—but, after all, it is taking over an established commercial organization, accustomed to the method of

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competition and accustomed to keeping as much as they can in their own hands. In those circumstances, when the Commission are taking over existing organizations of a competing character, I do not see that the words which the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, wants to insert would be by any means superfluous. They are not a reflection upon the Commission, but are merely to ensure that practices which have certainly gone on in the past are not continued in the future under the cover of the Commission, which may not be fully conscious of them. I think that this Amendment to the Amendment requires a little more favourable consideration.
LORD WALKDEN: I really do not think it does.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, for his remarks. I do not want to criticize, but certain organizations have the control of the bulk of sleepers and do not like disgorging them to the small travel agent. I feel that that may easily happen with the Commission. If the Commission really intend—as I am sure they do—to give the outside travel agents a fair deal, in order to do that they will have to appoint some official like an agency manager or department to carry that out. The Government have met us quite a long way on this matter, but I do not know whether they could give it further consideration. However, I shall not press my Amendment.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, may I say one word? I think it is perhaps difficult to formulate the right words for what we all want to do. Frankly, I do not think it is possible, and I have been through this same thing in regard to civil aviation. I did there manage to arrive at an understanding with all the travel agencies in the country, whether they were big or small, which I was assured gave them complete satisfaction. The clause was drafted really on the lines of the letters written at that time, and I know that is still being carried out by the Ministry of Civil Aviation. But one is in this difficult position. If you frame your words very widely and in effect say, "I am going to treat every single travel agency exactly alike," that means that you have to give exactly the same facilities to everybody whether they are large or small.
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There are in this country a number of well-recognized travel agencies who make travel their main business; it is their business. There are also (and it is proper that there should be for the convenience of the public) an almost innumerable number of people who conduct other businesses—some are bootmakers, some are grocers, some are co-operative societies, believe—who, as a little side-line, issue bus tickets or railway tickets, and so forth. It is quite convenient for people to be able to go in and get tickets at these places. But it would be impossible to say to people of that sort, "You are to have the same facilities for allotting sleepers (of which there are all too few) as the railway companies or Cook's." You say there is to be absolutely equal treatment, but it could surely not mean that.
What we want to be sure about, however, is that the Commission shall not favour their own creatures—that is the real point. I do not think you can really do more than say that the Commission shall do nothing which will prejudice the status quo of existing travel agencies. That, I understand, is the object of these words, and it carries with it the clear understanding that they will not give a preference to the agency which they own as against an agency which they do not own. That is what we need. I know the draftsmen have had a great many shots in getting this into the right form, and the words are about as good for the purpose as one can get.
LORD GIFFORD: In view of what the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has said I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, original Amendment agreed to.
Clause 119 [Other provisions as to orders and regulations]:
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the series moved by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon, this afternoon. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 126, line 48, after ("department") insert ("other than those made under section one hundred and two of this Act").—(Lord Ridley.)
LORD MORRISON: My Amendment is accepted.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 120:
Penalties.
(3) Where any offence against this Act or any regulation or order made thereunder has been committed by a body corporate, every person who at the time of the commission of the offence was a director, general manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or was purporting to act in any such capacity, shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence unless he proves that the offence was committed without his consent or connivance, and that he exercised all such diligence to prevent the commission of the offence as he ought to have exercised having regard to the nature of his functions in that capacity and in all the circumstances.
6.25 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMON VISCOUNT SIMON moved, at the end of subsection (3), to insert:
"Provided that no such person shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment if he shows that he had reasonable ground to believe, and did believe, that a competent and reliable person was charged with the duty of seeing that the provisions were complied with, and was in a position to discharge that duty."
The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, I should be grateful if a few minutes consideration might be given to this proposal. If one looks at the clause, which deals with penalties, one will see that, as drawn, the penalties are severe and that they cover a wide range of persons. Subsection (3) says:
"Where any offence against this Act or any regulation or order made thereunder has been committed by a body corporate, every person who at the time of the commission of the offence was a director, general manager, secretary, or other similar officer of the body corporate, or was purporting to act in any such capacity, shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence unless he proves that the offence was committed without his consent or connivance, and that he exercised all such diligence to prevent the commission of the offence as he ought to have exercised having regard to the nature of his functions in that capacity and in all the circumstances."
Your Lordships will see that the subsection provides that, generally speaking, the bodies that are to be dealt with for offences against the Act are bodies corporate. There are a great many things you cannot do to a body corporate. You cannot inflict corporal punishment; you cannot send to prison. Here we are dealing with very large bodies corporate and the net is drawn very wide. Having regard to the organization of these very
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large bodies, is it really right to impose the penalty upon an individual because he is in one of these positions, if he had every ground for believing that there was a competent and reliable person charged with the duty of seeing that this particular provision was complied with, who was in a position to comply with it? That is a wider exemption than the one in the Bill; but is it not a right exemption?
You cannot have everybody in a great organization, every director, every general manager, every secretary, held responsible for every single thing that might be done by the corporation against the law. My suggestion is that we really ought to provide that no such person shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment if he shows that he had reason to believe that a competent and reliable person was charged with the duty of applying the provision to be applied, and was discharging that duty. Most corporations do keep one individual for the sole purpose of complying with the various Governmental forms and requirements. It would be undesirable to say that everybody who was a director, or general manager, or secretary of such an undertaking was to be treated as a criminal and imprisoned, or, at any rate, fined, when he has himself seen to it that there is a suitable person who is dealing with these things and who is able to deal with them competently. I should like to know what the Government have to say about this. As the matter stands at present it provides for penalties to be imposed on individuals who, fairly considered, cannot be regarded as personally responsible for what has gone wrong, in view of the fact that they have got a competent and reliable person who has been appointed for the very purpose of seeing that all requirements are carried out.
Amendment moved—
Page 527, line 46, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Simon.)
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I gather from what the noble and learned Viscount has said that his objection is not so much to this clause as to the fact that the clause is printed in its present form, which is a form common in most legislation. A similar provision appears in the Borrowing (Control of Guarantees) Act, 1946, the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, the Civil Aviation Act, 1946, the Exchange Control Act, 1947,

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and a number of Bills before Parliament at the present time. Indeed, I understand that the noble Viscount, Lord Maugham, only the other day stated on a similar clause: "I am really quite content with the clause as it stands, and express gratitude to the Government for having put it down." That was Clause 18.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, perhaps I might say a word. I personally take the view that the words of the proviso are narrower than the words of the clause. I think it might quite well be that you had an accounts department, and that the department was working very well, and you had come across nothing wrong at all. You would then, I think, comply with the words of the clause. You would be able to say that you knew nothing about it, and that you had exercised all such diligence to prevent the commission of the offence as you ought to have exercised. That is to say, if you are a director of a company and you have had an accounts department working perfectly well for years, you would assume that everything was all right if you had some individual charged with the particular duty of seeing that the particular thing was going right. The Amendment is narrow, and I think it would be inadvisable to accept it.
I originated this clause in this form. I agreed it with my noble friend Viscount Maugham in one of the earlier Bills. I wanted to give a full and adequate protection, and I thought I had done it. I confess that I am inclined to think that the protection I have given is better than the protection the noble and learned Viscount gives. I keep in mind that it might have the opposite effect.
VISCOUNT SIMON: I dare say the Lord Chancellor is right about that, and I will only observe that one of the noble Lords whose name is down as supporting my proposal is the Viscount Maugham.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 124:
Interpretation.
"local authority" means the council of a county, the Common Council of the City of London, or the council of a county borough; "meat" means carcases of animals, parts of carcases of animals, or offals of animals, being carcases, parts of carcases or offals suit-
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able for human consumption, whether fresh, chilled or frozen, but not being carcases, parts of carcases or offals which have been cooked or subjected to any process other than skinning, trimming or cleaning;
6.34 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved to add the words "or the council of a county district the population of which at the last census exceeded 20,000" to the definition of "local authority." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a modified form of an Amendment which was moved in Committee on this definition of "local authority." It is an attempt to see that the councils of county districts preserve some of their functions and duties, which are rather apt to be diminished owing to this and other Bills before Parliament. Their functions under this Bill seem to me very largely to concern local matters, and the views of the people concerned are much more easily asserted and put forward by the councils of county districts than by the council of a county, whose members and officers are apt to be somewhat remote from the outlying parts of the county. In the Bill as originally worded the councils of non-county boroughs and metropolitan boroughs were included in this definition of "local authority." They were omitted at a comparatively late stage in another place, and that omission was extreme, I think. If this Amendment is accepted, as I hope it may be, it will only increase the number of councils concerned by sixty-nine above that which was in the Bill as originally introduced. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 130, line 3, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Addington.)
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, but I must congratulate him on his pertinacity. I think we have made quite a number of Amendments to the Bill in response to his proposals, but we cannot accept this one. The county councils, the county borough councils and the Common Council of the City of London are included, and a county council can, and will, consult the representatives of the district councils on any matters which are of common concern. They are on the Consultative Committees and, in fact, they are scattered practically all over the Bill. There are representatives of local

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authorities on various bodies, and I must ask the noble Lord not to ask us to split this up any further.
LORD ADDINGTON: I thank the noble Viscount for what he has said, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. There is nothing like trying.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD TEYNHAM LORD TEYNHAM moved, in the definition of "meat," after "frozen," to insert "or which, though subjected to processing, remain of a perishable character." The noble Lord said: My Lords, perhaps it would be convenient if I also took the next Amendment standing in my name, to add lo the definition the words "which substantially reduces the perishability thereof." During the Committee stage an Amendment was moved which set out the definition of "meat." It appears that this definition really only covers fresh, chilled or frozen meat, and does not include what is known in the trade as, I believe, open packed meat products. This Amendment is merely designed to cover this point. I am sure that open packed meat products, although they are processed, are not in any way cured, or pickled, and are quite as perishable as fresh meat. I hope, for that reason, His Majesty's Government may be able to accept this very simple Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 130, line 7, after ("frozen") insert ("or which, though subjected to processing, remain of a perishable character.")—(Lord Teynham.)
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, this is a simple Amendment, and it is attractive by reason of its simplicity, but I am afraid I cannot accept it. I understand that "meat" is well understood, defined and provided for in the special class of vehicles which are designed for its conveyance. But this definition, I understand, would embrace in the term sausages, black puddings and all manner of contrivances of a like nature. I cannot accept a definition of that vague character. I am sorry.
LORD TEYNHAM: In view of what the noble Viscount says, I do not propose to press this Amendment, and I do not move the other Amendment to which I referred.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
CLAUSE 125 [Application to Scotland]:
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to Move.
Amendment moved—
Page 134, line 14, leave out subsection (12). —(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EIGHTH SCHEDULE.
ORDERS GIVING EFFECT TO SCHEMES
PART I.
2.—(1) A notice under paragraph 1 of this Schedule shall be published—

(a) in the London Gazette, the Edinburgh Gazette, or both, according as the scheme affects England, Scotland, or both; and

(b) in such local newspapers, and in such other ways, if any, as appear to the Minister best suited for bringing the notice to the attention of persons concerned,

and shall specify a place where the draft of the order may be inspected, and copies thereof obtained at all reasonable hours, and the time (not being less than forty days from the publication of the notice) within which, and the manner in which, any objections to the draft may be made to the Minister, and the Minister shall consider any objections made within the time and in the manner specified in the notice.
Provided that the Minister shall not be required to consider any objection unless it comprises or there is submitted therewith a statement in writing setting out the specific grounds for any amendments, additions or modifications asked for, or any objection which in his opinion is frivolous.
3.—(1) If there are no objections which the Minister is required to consider, or if all such objections are withdrawn, the Minister may make the order either in the terms of the draft or subject to such amendments, additions or modifications, if any, as he thinks fit, being amendments, additions or modification which in his opinion do not effect important alterations in the draft as published.
(2) Where any such objection is made and is not withdrawn, the Minister shall cause in the case of a scheme under Part IV of this Act, a public local Inquiry, or, in any other case, an inquiry, to be held with respect thereto, and the Minister may, after considering the report of the person by whom the inquiry was held, make the order either in the terms of the draft or subject to such amendments, additions or modifications as the Minister thinks fit.
PART II.
11.The reference in subsection (8) of the said Section forty-seven to this Act shall be construed as a reference to the scheme.
6.37 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 2, after "Minister," where that word occurs for the third line, to insert, "unless he considers any objection to be frivolous." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this was a point which, in the course of the Committee stage, the noble Viscount said he would look into. The main issue here is the nature of the objections to which the Minister is bound to pay consideration. As the Bill stands at present, he need not consider objections which are frivolous, or which are not set out specifically in writing. The object of the Amendment is to change the conditions from a negative to a positive sense. That is to say, the Amendment which I am moving now allows the Minister to refuse to consider any objection if it is frivolous. The proviso in sub-paragraph (1) goes on to say that the objections must be of a specific character, and the amendments, additions and modifications asked for, if any, must be set out in writing. The weakness which is felt about this is that the Minister might object, not because of the merits of the case as such, but because the objection was not sufficiently specific. That I think would be a poor reason for refusing to receive an objection. There may be merits in a case, although it is not stated specifically. In those circumstances I beg leave to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 148, line 48, after the second ("Minister") insert the said words.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this seems to me to be very largely a matter of drafting. I have looked through the two sets of words and, as I was not the author of either of them, I have been fairly impartial, I think. I confess that I prefer the way we have it in the Bill, because the next Amendment which the noble Lord is going to put forward is:
"Any such objection shall state—

(i) the specific grounds of objection; and

(ii) the omissions, additions or modifications (if any) asked for."

So that, according to the Amendment on the paper, the Minister has two reasons—first of all: "I decline to consider this because it is frivolous"; secondly, "I object to considering this objection because it is not in the appropriate form and it seems to me to come
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to nothing." Under the Bill as drawn, an objector who considers that the Minister was unjustifiably refusing to consider an objection could go to the Courts, but, under the Amendment of the noble Lord, I very much doubt whether he could. For that reason alone, I prefer the words of the Bill. I confess, quite frankly, that, unless you assume that the Minister is going to act honestly, whatever words you use, I do not think you will be much better off. He can always ride off either by contending that the objection is frivolous or that it is not in a specific form, or he can close his ears to the whole thing and not take any notice of it. I think the Minister is honest. If you assume that the Minister is being honest about this, it does not matter very much whether you have one form of words or another; it makes very little difference. I prefer the words of the Bill for the reasons I have given.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I agree with what the noble and learned Viscount has said; it is only a matter of drafting. The points are substantially the same but there is this point that, as the Bill is drafted at present, the Minister can refuse to hear objections because they are not specific. However, if the noble and learned Viscount considers there is nothing very much in it, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON VISCOUNT SWINTON moved, in subparagraph (2) of paragraph 3, after "thereto," to insert: "by a person who is not a servant or officer of the Minister." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I must admit that this is something more than a drafting Amendment. This and the next Amendments in the name of the Earl of Selkirk are closely related, and the whole of them deal with the character of the inquiries and how those inquiries are to be conducted. The inquiries under this Bill are of great importance, and affect a very large number of people. I think that the only inquiries that are affected here are inquiries with regard to two matters. First of all, there are schemes for passenger road transport. The Commission are authorized to promote these schemes, which will cover a vast area and will affect a very large number of people. In the first place, the whole travelling public in the region will be directly affected. In

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the second place, all the providers of road passenger transport in that area will be affected.
The second kind of schemes which the Commission are authorized to promote and which are the subject of inquiries are the docks and harbour schemes, which we debated at such length and on which we arrived, I think, at such a happy and satisfactory solution. There again great interests are going to be affected: all the users of the ports, the ship owners, the traders, all the people who run the ports, the stevedores, all the port labour, the traders who send their goods through the port, the carriers to the port itself, and, of course, the authority, be it a trust, a company, or a municipality which has been conducting that port. These are inquiries of great importance affecting a large number of people. In each case, whether it be passenger road transport or whether it be a scheme for docks, the Commission are the promoters; they promote the scheme. That is very much the way in which railway companies in the past have promoted a Bill, and the Government have been most careful to see that all persons affected shall have a right of audience and objection.
I would like to pay my tribute to the Leader of the House for the great care which he has exercised to make sure that in these inquiries, which are of such tremendous importance, all interests who ought to have a right of audience shall know what the scheme is and shall be heard. In those circumstances, I am not now going to talk about the technicalities of law or exactly what this kind of inquiry should be called. I base my claim on something much broader, which is the general character and importance of the inquiries. Here are schemes promoted by the Commission, and persons can object to them, whether they be the travelling public or whether they be the interests who supply the transport. The form of the inquiry, therefore, becomes one in which the Commission promote their scheme and justify it by evidence, and the objectors are on the other side. It is, in fact, the Commission against the objectors. Not only for that reason, but by virtue of the importance of this inquiry, I would say that this is (I believe this is the right technical term) certainly in its nature a quasi-judicial inquiry.
I think everyone would say that an inquiry of this importance must be very thorough in all respects. It must be thorough in the way in which the case is presented. I would equally say that it must be thorough if the objectors are to have proper attention paid to them; it must be thorough in the way the objections are presented; it must be thorough in the evidence which is called to justify an objection, and, of course, as the Lord Chancellor indeed said, I think, on the last occasion, witnesses ought obviously to be subject to cross-examination. I take it that everyone will agree that the kind of precedent for an inquiry of this kind, indeed the best inquiry, was one dealing with exactly one of these subjects which was the subject of a scheme —the great inquiry which led to the formation of the Clyde Port Trust. That was an inquiry conducted, I think, by Lord Cooper in which those who promoted the scheme for amalgamation quite rightly made out their case, and every interest was heard. That inquiry gave complete satisfaction; everybody felt that, whether they liked the proposal or not, they had had a fair hearing. By reason of the thoroughness of the inquiry, and the completeness and manifest impartiality of the Report which was presented and published, the Report carried conviction and the plan went through with, I think, common consent. It is also important not only that the inquiry should be thorough but that all concerned should be convinced of its thoroughness. The Minister certainly will want to have a most thorough inquiry when he comes to take his decision.
Now I Wish to take up a point which was made by the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House. He said that in this matter what you really have to consider and what Parliament will ultimately have to consider is the decision the Minister takes, and that that is an administrative act. I entirely agree. When the Minister comes to take his decision, he is, in taking that decision, doing an administrative act, and he will go to Parliament and present his ideas and his proposals to Parliament. But when he comes to take his administrative decision, he will take it in the light of the report which has been made as the outcome of the inquiry. Just as it is true that the Minister's decision is an

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administrative decision, so is it equally true that the inquiry and all that pertains to it is judicial or quasi-judicial and not administrative. Moreover, Parliament will certainly rely greatly on the report in deciding whether to affirm or reject a scheme.
In those circumstances I submit three things. The first is that the man who holds the inquiry should be an independent person. I am not seeking to put in any of those stipulations—I have forgotten what the exact words were which were canvassed last time—about being impartial and competent, although words of that sort do figure in various Acts. Nor am I going to ask that the Lord Chancellor should appoint the person who is to hold the inquiry. I think that the Minister is the proper person to appoint the man to hold the inquiry, and that he should appoint someone who is not one of his own officials. In saying that, I cast no reflection of any kind on the Civil Service. I have lived and worked with that Service throughout my public life, and I have the highest possible regard for it. I am quite certain that if a man who is an official is appointed to hold an inquiry he will do his honest best.
I do say, however, that in the case of a great quasi-judicial inquiry, with these vast interests at stake, with the whole travelling public concerned in it, with all the undertakers concerned in it, I would not, as a Minister, send one of my officials to hold that inquiry. I would insist that it should be held by someone who not only is to be regarded as impartial, but who is known to have nothing whatever to do with me. I am certain that that would be a wise thing to do, and I am certain that unless that is done, people will say that they ought to have what they call an impartial person to consider the matter. You will prejudice the inquiry unless you do that. It is as important to appear to be just as it is to be just. It will inevitably be said that the Minister is acting as a judge in his own cause. As the Donoughmore Report said, the first principle of natural justice is that a man shall not be a judge in his own cause. The Minister is going to take his decision presently on whether to adopt or reject a scheme or to adopt it with amendments and present it to Parliament, and he should rely upon an independent judicial inquiry when he
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comes to act. I hope that it will not be said that in the arguments I am presenting, I am saying anything which casts aspersions on either the Minister or the Civil Service. I am doing nothing of the sort. This is a great principle and one which all of us, should we come to be Ministers, would be very wise to carry out.
My second submission is that the case should be clearly proved. Evidence must be offered, and that evidence must be subject to cross-examination. My third point is that the report should be published. Really, the argument for that seems to be quite unanswerable. The inquiry—I am glad to know that the Bill lays it down—is going to be a public inquiry. Witnesses will attend and will be cross-examined. As a result of this public inquiry, the greatest possible interest and attention will be centred upon the report when it is made, and it seems to me quite inconceivable that that report should not be published. I should have thought that that would follow as a matter of course. The Donoughmore Committee referring to Ministers' powers said, I think, that the second principle of natural justice was that a party was entitled to know the reasons why judgment was given for him or against him.
Surely as the result of this inquiry, the report must give reasons, and the report ought to be published to the whole world. The noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, said on a previous occasion that he saw difficulty in always publishing reports, and I would not ask for all reports to be published. You might well have a confidential report containing some reflections on people, which it would be very embarrassing to publish. I agree that that kind of confidential report clearly may not be suitable for publication, though I am sure that one should err on the side of publication rather than on the side of concealment. I am sure it is better to publish if you are in doubt than not to publish. When I was a Service Minister I adopted a rule—I do not know if I was right or wrong—that you must always show a man a report whether adverse or not. I thought it was going to be difficult to say what was an adverse report and what was not, so I made it a rule that all confidential reports about officers had to be shown to them. I think it worked very well.
As I say, I am sure that it would be wise to err on the side of disclosure and not lean to the side of non-disclosure. When a great public inquiry has been held it is inconceivable to me that the report should not be published as a matter of course. I am sure that when a scheme comes to Parliament with the Minister's decision taken in the light of the report—founded, indeed, upon it—one of the first things Parliament will want to see will be the report. And, of course, the Minister will, as a matter of fact, publish the report as an appendix to whatever scheme he puts forward. I have tried to put my points in support of this Amendment before you as clearly and reasonably as I can. I do not found my case on any technicalities at all, but on the importance of the subject and on the large numbers of the people affected, and I am sure that the course which I have advocated is the right course to take. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 149, line 18, after ("thereto") insert ("by a person who is not a servant or officer of the Minister").—(Viscount Swinton.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have been asked to reply in connexion with this matter, and I am afraid I must say at once that I differ fundamentally from the whole point of view which the noble Viscount has so very clearly and forcibly put forward. We have had this discussion several times. I agree that it is a matter on which there are two views—that is quite obvious. But I take the view which I am afraid I expressed quite definitely on this Bill and also on the Town and Country Planning Bill, that this is a very undesirable thing to do. May I say one or two words to show your Lordships why? I am very sure the noble Lord who has just spoken, if he takes some advice, will see there is nothing judicial or quasi-judicial about this at all. It is administrative all the way through. I do not think there can be any real doubt about that. That does not mean that an inquiry has not to be conducted fairly, but it does mean it is not judicial or quasi-judicial, in the sense of making it subject to various formal rules.
It is wrong to speak of the Minister as if he were judge in his own case, as the noble Lord has done. I think that is the underlying fallacy. The scheme is pro-
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pounded by the Commission and is propounded to the Minister. When the Minister looks at the scheme and sees it satisfies apparent requirements, he then certifies it provisionally—only provisionally, in order that there may be an inquiry at which objections can be raised. The Minister is not in any sense a party to that controversy. The Commission will propound a scheme. The objectors will object. And the Minister stands above the two of them and it is for him to decide as a matter of administration what he thinks is the right thing to do.
Before I go on, I may say that I have heard more misquotation of the Donoughmore Report than I like to think of recently. The Donoughmore Committee in recommending that these reports should be made public were at great pains to make it plain that the recommendation would not apply to those matters where the inquiry was of an administrative character. I will read once more these words. I claim the Donoughmore Committee is strongly on my side. Referring to the recommendation that reports should be made public, they say:
"Our recommendation is to be considered as limited to those cases where a public inquiry of a judicial character has been prescribed by Parliament as a step in the process of arriving at a judicial or quasi-judicial decision. Our recommendation has no application to those cases where the Minister in the ordinary course of administration may arrange for some local inquiry or investigation, the better to inform his mind before he takes some decision which is within his competence as the head of an executive department. The ordinary process of administration may indeed be gravely impeded were the Minister to be tied down to any particular procedure and the fact that the Minister may be armed by statute with a general power to proceed by way of local inquiry in suitable cases makes no difference so long as the matter is in essence administrative."
I quite agree that in some respects the Donoughmore Report went too far with regard to quasi-judicial reports, but in this respect, this being an administrative matter, I claim that the Donoughmore Report is completely and absolutely in favour of the view which I am maintaining.
Now I would tell your Lordships why it is so important that these reports should not be made public. After very considerable experience of administration in this country I re-echo the words of the noble Lord as to the great admira-

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tion which everybody has for the Civil Service, but I think it is essential, notwithstanding that fact, that a Minister should really be in charge of his Department. I think it is essential that a Minister should not get into the habit of lying back and resting too much on the decision of his civil servants. I think in cases of this sort the decision must be the decision of the Minister. The Minister must take all the steps he can by talking to his civil servants to inform his mind as to all the relevant facts, but when that is said and done it is not right that the Minister should simply say, "You recommend me to sign" and then sign. He must make his own decision. I am sure the noble Viscount would certainly agree to that.
VISCOUNT WINTON: I certainly would not argue about that.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Your Lordships will see how dangerous this position becomes. If you are to publish the report, two grave consequences follow in matters of administration. First of all, if the Minister is human, the Minister will tend always to agree with the report rather than differ, because he knows the report is to be published and therefore will lay himself open to trouble and criticism if he takes a line which goes away from the report. If he follows the report his course is easier. My second reason: if you are going to say these reports must be published, there will be a grave danger of the report not being a real document at all; you will get some covering letter or some interview or something of that sort where the person holding the inquiry will feel himself free to say what he does not feel himself free to say in the report which has to be made public. I say quite frankly this would be a retrograde step. It would do harm and not good. We would do very much better to leave things as they are in the Bill.
As to the personnel for holding the inquiry, I beg your Lordships not to fetter the discretion of the Minister. It may be a case of almost national importance or one affecting only a village or small town. Those are relevant facts for the Minister to consider as to whom he should appoint to hold the inquiry. There would be cases, I should imagine, in which the
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Minister would get some well known public figure. But there would be a very large number of cases where he would get someone inside his Ministry who knows the job and has great experience in this work and on whom the Minister can rely. And just as the Minister is impartial and not a party to the controversy, so also is the servant of the Minister equally impartial. There may be cases where you should appoint such a servant and cases where you should appoint a complete outsider. Do not fetter the discretion of the Minister.
I have tried to put my point of view as shortly as I can. I appreciate to the full the point of view of the noble Viscount. I know he wants to assist in these matters and I know that this point of view has existed for a long time. I have tried to put my point of view plainly and your Lordships understand why I, at any rate, believe this would be a mistake. I confess that the instructions which I have had from the Department are in accordance with the line I am taking, but I confess further that, if the instructions had been on a different line, I would have asked the Minister to re-examine them and withdraw his instructions in favour of my view. I need not waste time. There is here a real and genuine fundamental difference between our points of view and I do not think by further argument we are likely to convince each other.
7.10 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, we all recognize the experience and sincerity with which the noble Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, has spoken, but I must confess I have found his reply rather shocking, if I may be allowed to say so. He said, with truth, that he has had great experience in administration. So also have I. I have held various offices. I must confess that I disagree in toto with what the noble and learned Viscount said. It seems to me that the purpose of this series of Amendments is one that is completely unexceptionable. After all, what do they really aim at doing? By removing suspicions, they aim at maintaining the prestige of future Governments in this country. That, I should have thought, was the most important thing there could be for all of us.
These inquiries which are to take place under this Bill are substantial inquiries. They are not little inquiries, such as the

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noble and learned Viscount spoke of under the Town and Country Planning Bill. We had this same discussion then, and he talked about little inquiries as to the position of a bungalow, and matters of that kind, which would not be worth reprinting; they were of purely local interest—and not much local interest. As my noble friend Viscount Swinton has said, these inquiries are of a vastly different character. They are inquiries affecting thousands —even hundreds of thousands—of people, and vast sums of money. What is more, these inquiries are in any case going to be public. Certain of the arguments used by the noble and learned Viscount at the end of his speech might be put forward—although, even then, I do not think they would be very sound—about confidential inquiries. Evidence might have been given in confidence which it might be undesirable to issue to the public. But these are to be public inquiries. Anybody can go and listen to what is said at these inquiries. On what possible ground of principle can you be against the publication of the results—merely putting in black and white what has already been said, and what, so far as I know, may have already been printed in the newspapers? It seems to me that that is an incredible attitude for the Government to take up.
Moreover, there is a point to which the noble and learned Viscount did not refer at all, but which was mentioned with great force by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton: that is the importance of the publication of these reports to Parliament. The noble and learned Viscount said that this was a question for the Minister. But it is not a question merely for the Minister. These schemes will have to be approved by Parliament, and it is absolutely essential for Parliament to have the fullest information, both as to arguments in favour of the scheme and objections, if any, put up against it. Surely, to refuse to publish the reports is merely to deprive Parliament—which is, after all, the Legislature of the country—of information which it ought to have in its possession.
Then there is the basic argument, the argument of principle, which is vital: that justice should not only be done but should seem to be done. As the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, said this afternoon, that justice should not be surreptitious. That
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is very important. Fortunately, in our country over centuries now it has been the universal recognition that justice is done. But there are suspicions already arising, and those suspicions can be only fanned by the attempts of the Executive to conduct the affairs of the nation in private. I think it is inherent in the political philosophy accepted by noble Lords opposite (I do not wish to criticize it in any way but I noticed it in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, this afternoon), that they really rather resent any suggestion that there can be any fallibility in the state.
A NOBLE LORD: No.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not bring this up as a Party question; it is something which I do feel. Noble Lords opposite seem to think that Government Departments and the State must always be trusted by the people of this country, without information being given. I think that was said in effect by the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor. He said that the Minister is not a party to any of these questions—he is the judge; he is the arbitrator. It was said by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, this afternoon. We fully recognize that. I am not suggesting that the Minister would in any way be anything but completely honest and completely patriotic; but he is fallible, and his officials are fallible. It is essential, when really important decisions are to be taken, affecting large numbers of people and great interests in the country, that they should know the grounds on which those decisions are being taken and the arguments that have been used for and against. I beg noble Lords to believe that I am not desirous of introducing any controversial issue into this matter at all. It seems to me to be as clear as crystal, to whatever Party one belongs, that the Executive can only gain by the utmost publicity, and the attempt to take great decisions behind closed doors is bound to lead to disaster.
That is the reason why we press for the publication of these reports; that is the reason why we press for an independent inquirer. It is not because we think that an officer of the Minister is likely to be anything but as impartial as he possibly can. All of us who have had to deal with the Civil Service know that they have the very highest type of integrity. But it is

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important that the public should feel that the matter has been submitted to an impartial person—a person who has no prejudged view. Those are the reasons why we feel very strongly about these Amendments. I should have thought that it would strengthen the position of the Government with their Bill to accept these Amendments. I am sorry to hear that they cannot accept them, and I am afraid that this is a matter, as the noble and learned Viscount has said, of great principle which we shall have to press to a Division. I would infinitely rather that a great principle like this should have been accepted by agreement than that it should have to be forced through the House by a Division.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I hesitate rather to speak on the grounds of experience, as the noble Marquess did, but it is unavoidable in this case.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Certainly.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I really am very surprised at the line being taken by the noble Lords opposite on this matter. I took down the words of the noble Marquess. He said: "Taking great decisions behind closed doors." What are we really talking about? In the first place, we are talking about a public local inquiry—a public inquiry. There are no closed doors about that. Everybody can hear what goes on, and no doubt the local Press will report in full all the pros and cons, and the rest of it. Both sides will receive ample publicity. So far as the case is concerned, it is heard on both sides, at great length, and perhaps with wearisome reiteration. That is the first stage. What is the next stage? The man who conducts the inquiry makes a report of what he has heard. But what he has said has been in public; it has not been behind closed doors. He reports to the Minister what he thinks about it, and on the basis of that report, if he is so minded, the Minister makes an order. What happens then? The order is reported to Parliament, and the Minister has to justify, in the face of all the critics in Parliament, what he has done as the result of the report of that public inquiry. I cannot see where "closed doors" come in. I cannot imagine any better facility for making—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: If I may interrupt the noble Viscount, he is arguing entirely on our side. If this inquiry has been in public, what possible objection can there be to publishing the report? He assumes that all this information will be in the possession of Parliament, but in the case of a local inquiry, reported in local newspapers, it will not be at their disposal. Those of us who have been in Parliament all know that. We are not asking that anything confidential should be published. We are asking that this report of the inquiry should be printed and issued to Parliament.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I think that makes it worse still. A public inquiry will no doubt be reported at great length in the local newspapers. I understand what the noble Marquess wants is that the whole of the proceedings, the cross-examination of witnesses and so on, shall be published at great length.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No, the report. I am not going beyond the Amendment.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am trying to to interpret what it is the noble Marquess really wants. I understand that he wants a report published of all that happened at this inquiry. That is a very different matter, and I will come to that. In the first place, there is nothing about "closed doors." That is the first thing I want to make quite clear. It is a public inquiry. Now the man who holds the inquiry—and I will come to the question of selection in a moment—makes a report to the Minister as to his impressions of the inquiry; what he thinks about this; what he thinks about that; whether he thinks this is exaggerated, or whether it is not exaggerated; whether it is fictitious and all the rest of it, which is exceedingly valuable to the Minister. But I am perfectly certain that the man could not make the report as he ought to make it if he knew that afterwards it was all to be published: of course he could not.
I cannot get over my astonishment that noble Lords who have had long experience, of Government office should make a proposal of that sort. It is absolutely unthinkable. I am perfectly certain that in the various offices which he has held the noble Marquess has many times had reports from his officers of events which have happened and which he wants to

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know about; or he asks an experienced man—nine times out of ten one of his own officers in whom he has complete confidence—to give him a report about it. He would never dream of publishing those reports. Surely the noble Marquess must have received those reports.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: But the Cooper Report, to which reference was made, and which is an exactly similar report to those which are to be made under this was published. It did not lead to great embarrassment.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am not suggesting that it did. As the noble Marquess knows, in a large number of cases somebody is called upon to make an elaborate investigation and publish a report. That is quite a different thing from a ministerial inquiry into a specific case
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 149, line 25, at end insert:
("(3) The person appointed to hold the inquiry shall make a report thereon in writing to the Minister, containing—

(a) his findings and conclusions as well as the reasons therefor, upon all the material issues of fact, liability or discretion involved in the exercise of the functions in respect of

which is held in public, and where a report is sent to the Minister of the man's views. That is what this is, and that is what the Minister wants for his guidance. I say that it would be destructive of the best interests of public administration if you had to insist that in all these cases the man's report must be published. That could not be done. It must be the Minister's responsibility. The inquiry is held in public, the Minister receives a report on what the loan thinks about it, and then he makes an order. That order is published; it is discussed in Parliament; that is the right way to do it. We could not possibly accept this Amendment.
On Question, Whether the said words shall be there inserted?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 45; Not-Contents, 18.

CONTENTS.

Cholmondeley, M.

Ridley, V.

Gifford, L.

Salisbury, M.

Simon, V.

Grenfell, L,

Swinton, V.

Hatherton, L. [Teller.]

Albemarle, E.

Templewood, V.

Hawke, L.

De La Warr, E.

Hazlerigg, L.

Dundonald, E.

Addington, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Altrincham, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Llewellin, L.

Midlothian, E. (E. Rosebery.)

Ashburton, L.

Mancroft, L.

Munster, E.

Belstead, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Rothes, E.

Carrington, L.

Ravensworth, L.

Selkirk, E.

Cawley, L.

Rochdale, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Templemore, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Cromwell, L.

Teynham, L.

Hill, V.

De L'Isle and Dudley, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Long, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Wolverton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Jowitt, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Truro, L. Bp.

Kershaw, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Gainsborough, E.

Ammon, L.

Merthyr, L.

Huntingdon, E.

Chorley, L. [Teller.]

Morrison, L.

Faringdon, L.

Pakenham, L.

Addison, V.

Henderson, L. [Teller.]

Shepherd, L.

Hall, V.

Holden, L.

Walkden, L.

which the inquiry has been caused to be held; and

(b) his recommendations in regard to the exercise of the said functions;

and copies of such report shall be made available on payment of a reasonable charge therefor, to the persons entitled to attend the inquiry. The Minister may, after considering, such report, make the order either in the terms of the draft, or subject to such amendments, additions or modifications as the Minister thinks fit.")
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 149, line 21, at end insert:
("(3) The Commission shall appear at any such public local inquiry in favour of the scheme and any objector may appear and tender evidence. Any person appearing in favour of the scheme or any objector appearing at the inquiry shall be subject to cross examination.
(4) For the purpose of this Schedule the person appointed to hold such public local inquiry shall have the same powers as are granted to the Minister by Section twenty of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919.")
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Amendment is little more than drafting. Its effect is to bring in a few people who otherwise would not be in. Therefore I am sure your Lordships will accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 150, leave out line 23 and insert ("to any other express provision contained in this Act shall be construed as a reference to any other express provision for the payment of additional compensation contained in the scheme").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 160, line 12, leave out ("Sections fifteen and twenty-one") and insert ("Section fifteen; in Section twenty-one, from the beginning of the Section to the words 'Provided that' ").—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

PUBLIC OFFICES (SITE) BILL.
7.35 P.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a Second time. The Bill is very clearly set out, and I do not think there is any need for me to elaborate on it. Its primary purpose is to secure for His Majesty's Government, either by agreement or compulsorily, the site of the old Westminster Hospital opposite the Abbey. It is proposed to demolish the present buildings there, together with the old Stationery Office buildings on the adjoining site, and to develop the combined site as soon as possible. The Bill makes provision for the modification of the Westminster
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Hospital Act, 1913, in respect of certain restrictions on building which were designed originally to protect the neighbouring Stationery Office buildings, now to be demolished. There is also a clause which exempts the site from the provisions of the London Building Acts, as the Crown is not bound by them and it is thought undesirable to create a precedent in this particular case. Finally, as the District Railway passes close to the boundary of the site, a clause has been inserted to provide statutory protection for the London Passenger Transport Board when the new building is erected.
Very careful thought has naturally been given to the best possible use which can be found for this site, with its many historical associations and its position, which is one of the most prominent in London. Before the war the present owner proposed to develop it for commercial offices, but I am sure there will be general agreement that it is in the national interest that the site should be developed in accordance with the recommendations of the County of London Plan, that Government offices should be concentrated as far as possible in the immediate neighbourhood of Whitehall and the Houses of Parliament. In the circumstances it is considered, and I think noble Lords will agree, that there is no more worthy use for this fine position than as the headquarters of our Colonial Empire. It is accordingly proposed to erect there a new Colonial Office, a building which, as I shall explain, is most urgently required. The pre-war headquarters of the Colonial Office in Downing Street have been occupied by them since 1875 and are now quite inadequate to accommodate a staff which have increased from 40 originally to a total now of 1.185. At present the staff are dispersed among six buildings in Central London, though it is hoped shortly to concentrate the majority of them in a group of leased offices in Great Smith Street. This, however, is only a temporary expedient and I think that noble Lords will agree that the only satisfactory solution is that work of such increasing importance as the administration of our Colonies should be centralized in one modern building as soon as possible.
The Ministry has been fortunate enough to secure the services of Mr. T. S. Tait as architect. Many of your Lordships will be familiar with his work, which

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includes Adelaide House, the British Museum extension, and Lloyds Bank Head Office in the City. Mr. Tait is already closely acquainted with the possibilities and problems of this particular site, and thus a good deal of time will be saved in the preparation of plans for the new building. Noble Lords will be happy to know that the Minister of Works has undertaken to consult the Royal Fine Arts Commission at the outset and later on, when the plans have been more fully developed, both as regards the sketch plans and elevation. He is also very carefully examining the possibility of employing artists, sculptors and engravers, on both external and interior decoration, and in addition, of making use of schemes for certain rooms suggested by and representative of individual Colonies. I hope that I have said enough to justify the Bill. It will, as I have indicated, provide an opportunity to acquire an incomparable site at the very heart of the British Commonwealth, and to erect upon it an edifice that will at once be worthy of our Colonial Empire and of the noble companionship of its historic surroundings. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a Second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Henderson.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FIRE SERVICES BILL.
7.40 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Commitee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD HOLDEN in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Provision of fire services.
1.—(1) It shall be the duty of every fire authority in Great Britain to make provision for fire-fighting purposes, and in particular every fire authority shall secure—

(f) efficient arrangements for the giving, when requested, of advice in respect of buildings and other property in the area of the fire authority as to fire prevention, restricting the spread of fires, and means of escape in case of fire.

LORD FARINGDON LORD FARINGDON moved, in paragraph (f) of subsection (1), after "requested," to insert "or as a result of inspections carried out under paragraph (d) of this subsection,". The noble Lord said: This is really a very simple little point. The intention is that where an inspection has been carried out by a fire prevention officer the officer shall, if as a result of his inspection he feels it to be necessary, make a report to the owner on the point of the condition of the premises which he has inspected. He is directed under this Bill to make such a report already, should he be so requested. I think it is probable that, in actual Let, if, say, any owner of a factory had his factory inspected by a fire prevention officer, he would very naturally put himself in touch with that officer and say: "What is your opinion of my premises? What are your views on its condition?" But there is no direction that such a report shall be made. I think, indeed, that even if the owner did not ask, there is every possibility that the fire prevention officer, or the inspector, or whatever you like to call him, if he found anything, would tell the owner what he had, in fact, found. However, the aim of my Amendment is to make it incumbent on the inspector to make a report to the owner of the building.
The present position with regard to the inspection of buildings, from the point of view of fire protection, is really very far from satisfactory. Of course, in London it is covered by the excellent London Building Acts, but apart from that it is covered principally by the Factory Acts. If you read the provisions of the Factory Acts in so far as they deal with fire prevention, you will, I think, inevitably come to the conclusion that the main preoccupation, and indeed very properly the main preoccupation, of the Factory Acts is the safety of the personnel. It deals mainly with things like escapes and so on. There is also, if I remember rightly, a Section 119 which deals with the endangering by their acts of other personnel by persons employed. But that is not really a very workable section, and it is one under which there have been prosecutions on only about ten occasions. It is well known that the number of factory inspectors at the present time is wholly inadequate. That I think is very generally recognized. Moreover, the in-

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spection from the point of view of fire risks is really a very highly skilled and technical job; indeed, under the Factory Acts there are already provisions for certain specialized inspectors. I suggest that instead of having specialized fire prevention inspectors under the Factory Acts, those particular duties should be placed upon the inspectors who will be sent round by the National Fire Service. That, very briefly, is the point of my Amendment, and I hope that His Majesty's Government may see fit to accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 5, after ("requested") insert ("or as a result of inspections carried out under paragraph (d) of this subsection").—(Lord Faringdon.)
LORD CHORLEY: I have some sympathy with the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, has just moved to Clause 1 of the Bill, but I regret that we are not able to accept it. The inspections which are made under paragraph (d) of Clause 1 are intended to provide the fire officers with the information which they require for the purposes of their work in fire fighting, so that they may know the buildings which they have to protect, where the water supplies are available, and matters of that kind. Paragraph (f), to which the noble Lord has moved his Amendment, is really a new departure, in that it gives the owner of a particular property the possibility of asking for advice, and the paragraph provides that efficient arrangements shall be made in order that requests for advice of that kind can be met. The Amendment of the noble Lord seeks, in effect, to thrust advice upon the owners of these properties whether they want it or not.
We feel that these matters of fire prevention, which are dealt with for the first time in this Bill, are matters which will have to be built up gradually, and which, quite possibly, a few years hence will require comprehensive legislation. I suggest to your Lordships that it would be rather an unfortunate thing at the present time to go too rapidly with it, and to try to force advice upon persons who, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, will no doubt, when inspections have been made under the earlier paragraph, be only too anxious to ask for information and to accept the advice of the competent fire officers. To thrust it upon them and,
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in effect, to suggest to them that something is going to be made compulsory at this particular stage, would defeat the very object which the noble Lord has in mind in getting a much more efficient system of fire prevention installed throughout the country. Therefore, I hope he will appreciate that, while we have much sympathy with the object he has in view, we do not feel that the particular method by which he is seeking to achieve it is likely to bring success. In those circumstances I hope he will withdraw the Amendment.
LORD FARINGDON: Of course, I do not want to delay your Lordships longer than necessary, and I will withdraw my Amendment, although I think the reply of the noble Lord is almost wholly unsatisfactory. The fact of the matter is that I am not suggesting in my Amendment that these inspections should be compulsory. There is no question of an inspector going round to make a report for a set purpose. The point is that where he is asked—in cases, for example, where he has made an inspection in order to inform himself about the risks in a certain building—he shall make a report to the owner of the building, without committing the owner of the building to do anything about the report or anything else. However, there it is. It seems to me, frankly, that the opposition of His Majesty's Government to this Amendment is largely a disinclination to change the shape of their baby's nose. However, I withdraw the Amendment.
LORD CHORLEY: I would like to point out that the Amendment does not, in fact, have the effect of securing what the noble Lord has just expressed as his intention. The words of it do not do that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD WALKDEN: The next is a drafting Amendment to improve the wording of subsection (2). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 10, leave out from beginning to ("have") in line 14, and insert:
"(2) For the purposes of such arrangements as are mentioned in paragraph (d) of the last foregoing subsection, any member of a fire brigade maintained in pursuance of this Act shall, if authorised in writing by the authority maintaining the brigade."—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
7.40 p.m.
Clause 2:
Arrangements for mutual assistance.
(4) A fire authority shall not be entitled to receive any payment in respect of any assistance provided by them under a reinforcement scheme, so however that nothing in this subsection shall prevent provision being made in the scheme for apportioning between the fire authorities concerned, in such proportions as may be specified by or under the scheme, expenses incurred in taking measures to secure the efficient operation of the scheme.
LORD WALKDEN LORD WALKDEN moved, in subsection (4), to leave out all words down to and including "scheme," where that word first occurs, and insert "(4) A reinforcement scheme may make provision," The noble Lord said: It would be very convenient if we could take this Amendment which stands in my name together with the other Amendment on Clause 3. They are both small Amendments, of which the intention is to remove certain doubts. The purpose is to provide expressly that a fire authority should not make any charge for services rendered. It is designed to make it quite clear that the fire authority cannot be required to call upon owners or occupiers of property on which fires occur to make any payment in respect of services rendered. The Fire Brigades Act of 1938, which is now being repealed, provided for the abolition of such charges, and it was feared that some doubt might arise as to the intention of Parliament if the Amendment to Clause 3 is not made. Therefore, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 13, leave out from beginning to ("for") in line 16 and insert—("(4) A reinforcement scheme may make provision").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Supplementary powers of fire authorities.
(2) Before exercising the powers conferred by paragraph (c) of the last foregoing subsection in relation to any trunk road a fire authority shall obtain the consent of the Minister of Transport, and before exercising those powers in relation to any road maintained by a highway authority, other than the Minister of Transport or the fire authority, they shall obtain the consent of the highway authority maintaining the road; and—
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(b) the said powers shall not be exercised except after consultation with the chief officer of police for the area in which the fire alarms are to be placed.

LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (2), to leave out "chief officer of police" and insert "police authority." The noble Lord said: There is a little history attaching to this. I understand an Amendment to that effect was moved in Standing Committee in another place, but was withdrawn because the impression was given that these words would be deleted by the Minister who is in charge. Owing to some adjustment, they were re-inserted in a different place on Report stage, so the matter is where it was. The point really is that it is considered that it is not appropriate that any council should really consult an official, whether appointed by themselves or by somebody else, and the persons whom they really want the authority to consult are the police authority and not any specified person. There is no objection to consulting with the police authority; no doubt, the matter would come to that officer for report. It is a matter of principle in the matter of consultations between authorities and, although I think some similar words appear in the Act of 1938, it is felt that the position is not satisfactory. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 37, leave oat ("chief officer of police") and insert ("police authority"). —(Lord Addington.)
LORD CHORLEY: Generally speaking, of course, I should agree with the argument put forward by the noble Lord but, on this occasion, really, it would be quite impracticable to accept this Amendment, because the effect would be to make it impossible for the particular job of work which is aimed at in this clause to be rapidly and effectively carried through. For example, just to take the London County Council area, the Secretary of State is the police authority, and it would mean that every little matter of this kind would have to be referred to the Secretary of State. In areas where the police authority is the standing joint committee, it would cause all sorts of difficulties. As the noble Lord has pointed out, there has been more than one Statute in which consultation with some particular official in regard to a technical matter dealt with

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by the Statute has been provided for. In this case I should have thought this sort of small technical matter would be better dealt with by consultation with the police chief and the fire authority concerned. I hope the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD ADDINGTON: I am glad that the noble Lord agrees that the principle that I brought forward is a sound one. In this case there seem to be reasons for not adopting the Amendment. In the circumstances I will not press it and I ask leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD WALKDEN: I beg to move the words printed on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 47, at end insert:
("(4) Save as expressly provided in this Act, a fire authority shall not make any charge for services rendered by the authority.")—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
7.35 p.m.
Clause 4 [County and county borough councils to be fire authorities]:
LORD WALKDEN: This again is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 20, leave out ("subsection") and insert ("section").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved to add to the clause:
"Where, on the thirtieth day of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the population of a non-county borough, as estimated by the Registrar General, exceeded one half of the population of the administrative county comprising the borough, as so estimated, the provisions of this Act shall apply to the borough as if it were a county borough, and references in this Act to county borough and to non-county boroughs shall be construed accordingly."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment, which sounds rather long, is meant to provide for two special circumstances where the population of a non-county borough exceeds half of the population of the whole county including that borough. It follows the precedent of Section 17, subsection (1), of the Police Act, for police purposes. There, just as in this case, the non-county boroughs lost their police powers in the same way
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as they lost their powers as fire authorities. In the exceptional case where the population of the non-county borough is larger than that of the rest of the county to which the power would go, I understand they will retain the position of a police authority.
There are just two cases in point. The main one, perhaps, is Peterborough, where the population of the City of Peterborough is, I believe, 48,000, and that of the rest of the Soke of Peterborough only 9,000. Therefore, out of a total population of 57,000, the City of Peterborough contains 48,000, and it is thought that in that case the City should be the police authority rather than the Soke of Peterborough. The second case is that of Cambridge, in which the population of the Borough of Cambridge is 78,000 while that of the county including the borough is only 140,000. In other words, the population of the county, excluding the borough, is smaller than that of the borough itself. It is thought that in such cases the precedent of the Police Act should be followed, and the council of the non-county borough should be the fire authority. The principle seems to be the same and, therefore, I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 24, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Addington.)
LORD FARINGDON: I hope that His Majesty's Government will resist this Amendment. As this seems to be a suitable occasion, I will ask His Majesty's Government to note certain observations I made on Second Reading when I really received no very adequate reply. This clearly is a case, like so many others, where the answer lies in combination. What I gather the noble Lord wants to do is to set up two authorities where in fact it is suggested under the Act there should be one.
LORD ADDINGTON: To switch the authority round—instead of the county being the authority the borough is the authority and absorbs the county.
LORD FARINGDON: I thought the noble Lord wanted to make two authorities out of one. As a matter of fact, what I wanted to press upon the Government was the desirability of encouraging com-

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binations—I raised this point on Second Reading—and I do hope that the Government will give assurances that they will encourage such combinations before those schemes are made, because it is going to give local authorities great trouble if they have to make schemes now.
LORD CHORLEY: I think the point which has been made by Lord Faringdon really comes under Clause 5, which deals with schemes for combination of fire authorities; and I am very glad to assure him that my right honourable friend has very much in mind the extreme importance of schemes of combination of fire authorities. That was brought home very forcibly, as the noble Lord knows, during the years of the war, in which the autonomy of different authorities in connexion with their fire brigades very frequently led to great difficulties in wartime fire-fighting during enemy attack. So I can assure him that this is one of the matters which is very much in the mind of my right honourable friend, and he will take every opportunity of encouraging such combinations.
With regard to the noble Lord's Amendment: as he has pointed out it is modelled on a section of the Police Act of 1946, which was inserted with the express purpose of preserving the rights of the Borough of Cambridge and the City of Peterborough in connexion with their separate police forces. As I pointed out, I think, to the noble Earl, Lord Munster, a police force is really quite different from a fire force, and it is not right to press analogies between them. A fire service is really not comparable with a police service. It is a much more mobile service, and a more technical service. The arguments against small units, I think, are much stronger in connexion with the fire service than with the police service, though very necessary combinations of small police services which have been carried out under the Act, I am sure everyone will agree, have been successful; and they were certainly overdue.
Then again there is perhaps something to be said on the grounds of tradition and prestige for preserving an historic police force. But that argument certainly cannot be applied in relation to a completely new set-up of the kind that is contemplated under this Bill. It is possible—indeed I am not sure that a more correct word would not be "probable"—that
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the present investigations of the Local Government Boundary Commission may easily affect these particular local authorities. In that case we should be inserting a completely useless clause in the Bill. Most important of all, under Clause 20 and also under the First Schedule and Clause 21, which go together, provision is made for consultation with county districts by the new county fire authorities in the preparation of their county establishment schemes. Under Clause 21, in particular, county districts have to be given representation on the county fire brigade committee. I think that bearing these important safeguards in mind, the noble Lord will agree with me that when the time comes it will be perfectly easy to provide that the City of Peterborough and the Borough of Cambridge will in fact play an effective and proper part in connexion with their local fire services, and that they should have no difficulty at all in getting their interest in the fire service adequately represented upon the committee which will play such an important part in the matter. In those circumtances I think the noble Lord will agree with me that an Amendment of this kind is hardly necessary.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I desire to ask my noble friend not to press this Amendment. Of course it is in general terms, and I must say that at first it frightened me greatly. It is not even confined in terms to Peterborough and Cambridge; had it been I should not have been quite so frightened. But it does open up a vista of an enormous increase in the number of authorities, and it does seem to me that the one hope of efficient working of this Bill all over the country rests in the fact that you are to have as few authorities as possible. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend. Lord Addington, will take the advice of the noble Lord who has just spoken and will be satisfied that there are other ways by which the City of Peterborough and the Borough of Cambridge may perhaps get their own way in the end.
LORD ADDINGTON: I am very glad to respond to the suggestion which has been made to me. I certainly did not wish to alarm my noble friend the Earl of Donoughmore, in any way. Probably arrangements will be made quite adequately under the clause to which the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has

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referred. On the face of it, however, it does seem rather absurd that power should be taken from a larger authority and given to one that is really smaller than the one from which it is taken. It may well be, as the noble Lord says, that adjustments will be made to boundaries, and even that these counties themselves may not remain independent fire units. In the circumstances, having raised the point and having heard the Government reply, I will not press the Amendment and I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 5 to 12 agreed to.
Clause 13:
Transitional provisions.
(3) The Secretary of State may after consultation with such associations representing local authorities as appear to him to be concerned by regulations make such transitional provision as appears to him expedient in consequence of the transfer to fire authorities of functions relating to fire services of the Secretary of State and of authorities which were fire authorities for the purposes of the Fire Brigades Act, 1938, and in particular (but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provisions of this subsection) regulations under this subsection may provide—

(d) for the transfer to fire authorities of property, rights and liabilities vested, enjoyed or incurred on behalf of His Majesty for the purposes of the National Fire Service, for the carrying on by fire authorities of arrangements (including arrangements for the making of payments) entered into on behalf of the Crown for those purposes, and for the vesting in fire authorities of property used on behalf of His Majesty for the said purposes but vested in any authority being a fire authority for the purposes of the Fire Brigades Act, 1938;

(e) for the reimbursement of interest and redemption charges incurred, by an authority for the purposes of the said Act of 1938, in respect of moneys borrowed in connexion with property vested in pursuance of the last foregoing paragraph, for rendering the fire authority in which the property is so vested liable for the reimbursement, and for the determination by the Minister of Health of questions arising under this paragraph;

8.6 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved in paragraph (d) of subsection (3) at the end to insert: "and formerly used by them for the purposes of their duties as fire authorities." The noble Lord said: This
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Amendment relates to Clause 13 (3). This regulates the transfer to the new fire authorities of property which is used by the National Fire Service but which belongs to local authorities that will not be fire authorities under the Bill. That is to say, it deals with property belonging to the non-county boroughs, and to urban and rural districts. As paragraph (d) now stands, the Bill deprives these small authorities of property which they purchased for some municipal purpose quite other than fire purposes, although, for reasons of emergency and patriotism, the National Fire Service or often the A.F.S., before the National Fire Service started, were allowed to use them during the war.
It is thought that such a transfer would be most unjust, and therefore the Amendment is designed to prevent such a result. But it will not prevent a transfer to the new fire authorities of the property which the smaller authorities acquire specifically for fire purposes. Under the Bill as at present drafted only two tests require to be satisfied in order to decide whether property owned by a non-county borough or an urban or rural district is to vest in the county council. The tests are: first, that the property is now vested (for any purpose whatsoever) in an authority which was a fire authority for the purpose of the Fire Brigades Act of 1938—that is to say a non-county borough, urban district or rural district. The second test is that it is now used for National Fire Service purposes.
There are a good many cases, but I will just quote two instances which illustrate the kind of injustice with which the Amendment is intended to deal. In June 1938, a non-county borough purchased house and grounds as a corporation estate at a cost of about £3,000. I understand that the purpose was to establish a museum. But they had not got that purpose fully carried out when the war broke out, so, the place being acquired and not being adapted to the use for which it was intended, the A.F.S. were allowed to use it during the war. It was later taken over and is still occupied by the National Fire Service. Another instance relates to a house purchased by a non-county borough just before the war for road-widening purposes. There was not time before the outbreak of the war to demolish the house or to proceed with the road-widening proposals and there again it was naturally

469
adopted by the National Fire Service for the purpose of a depot.
In both these cases, and no doubt many more where property required for demolition for slum clearance was unoccupied and used by the National Fire Service, that property would be acquired by the county council free of compensation. That is one thing this Amendment is intended to avoid. Without this Amendment the National Fire Service, owing to its vast expansion during the war, has many more properties which were used during the war, and are still used, than were originally required for the peace-time service. The new fire authority would not require all these extended properties, and the Amendment is intended to provide that any property acquired by former fire authorities for the purposes of the then National Fire Service should not be acquired, certainly not without compensation, by the new fire authorities. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 16, at end, insert ("and formerly used by them for the purposes of their duties as fire authorities").—(Lord Addington.)
LORD CHORLEY: I regret I have to disappoint the noble Lord again. I think he has overlooked the fact that these regulations are entirely permissive. There is no question of automatically taking over these properties belonging to local authorities. The clause requires the Secretary of State to consult the local authorities associations before making regulations, and there is no reason why the regulations should not provide safeguards for dealing with the sort of property the noble Lord has in mind. I think he will agree that each of these properties ought to be dealt with on its merits. Many of them were depôts or something of that kind taken over by the National Fire Service during the war, and very considerable works have been carried out on them, works on which the whole efficiency of the fire service may depend, and it would really be rather absurd that they should be handed back to the local authority in the way this Amendment suggests. Moreover, apart from that aspect, the county council and county borough council which will be the fire authority have to face the task of building up their own organization, and in many cases the efficiency of their fire
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service would depend largely on their being able to take over property of this very kind. On the other hand, there will obviously be properties which are no longer required, and there should be no difficulty at all about their rendition to the non-county borough or district council which previously had possession of them and is in a position to make vary much better use of them. I am sure the noble Lord, on reflection, will agree that since these regulations are permissive and proper arrangements can be made under them, there is no real reason why he should press this Amendment.
LORD ADDINGTON: If I can have an assurance that the transfer will not be automatic, and the regulations will cover all these properties used by the fire services, I will not press the Amendment now.
LORD CHORLEY: I will very gladly give the assurance that it is not intended to be an automatic transfer.
LORD ADDINGTON: I will not press the Amendment at this stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD WALKDEN LORD WALKDEN moved, in paragraph (e) of subsection (3), after "1938" to insert "which does not on the appointed day become a fire authority." The noble Lord said: It will be convenient if we take this Amendment and the one immediately following together. They arise from representations made by the county councils. Clause 13 (3) (e) as drafted did not empower the Secretary of State to transfer to the new fire authorities liability for paying the debt charges on appliances bought by means of a loan under the 1938 Act, in the case of those appliances which have been scrapped or which may have been destroyed, for instance, by enemy action. It would be wrong to leave with county district councils the liability to pay loan charges on fire appliances which are in fact no longer available, and these liabilities ought to be transferred to the county councils. At first sight this may seem rather odd, but such transfer is seen to be equitable when account is taken of the fact that the appliances will have been replaced by new appliances, and the fire service is to be transferred to the new fire authorities as a going concern without compensation being required to be

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paid by county councils, either to the State or to the old fire authorities. The County Councils Association have been consulted about this Amendment and have agreed to the wording we have put down; therefore I am sure your Lordships will endorse it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 19, after ("1938") insert ("which does not on the appointed day become a fire authority").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WALKDEN: This is a consequential Amendment. I move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 20, leave out from beginning to ("and") in line 23 and insert ("for firefighting purposes, for rendering liable for the reimbursement the fire authority for the area including the area of the first mentioned authority").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WALKDEN: This is a drafting Amendment. I move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 30, leave out ("for that area or").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
LORD WALKDEN LORD WALKDEN moved, after sub-section 3 to insert:
"(4) Where property used and vested as mentioned in paragraph (d) of the last foregoing subsection cannot conveniently be severed from other property vested in the authority last mentioned in that paragraph, but not so used—

(a) the two properties shall either both be treated as used and vested as aforesaid or both be treated as vested as aforesaid but no so used, as may be determined by or under regulations under the last foregoing subsection, and accordingly both shall be vested in the fire authority for the purposes of this Act or both retained by the authority for the purposes of the Fire Brigades Act, 1938;

(b) where property is vested by virtue only of the last foregoing paragraph, arrangements shall be made for the use of the property by the authority for the purposes of the said Act of 1938, and where property is retained by virtue only of that paragraph arrangements shall be made for the use thereof by the fire authority for the purposes of this Act, and arrangements under this paragraph shall provide for the terms (including terms as to payments) on which property is to be used as aforesaid;

(c) notwithstanding anything in the last foregoing subsection, provision shall not be made by regulations thereunder for the reimbursement of interest and redemption
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charges incurred in respect of moneys borrowed in connection with property retained by virtue only of paragraph (a) of this subsection.

Any question arising in connection with the operation of this subsection shall be determined by the Secretary of State."
The noble Lord said: This rather long Amendment arises from an assurance given in another place when the Bill was under consideration there. In the discussion on this Amendment, the Secretary of State expressed sympathy with the viewpoint developed by Opposition speakers, and gave the assurance that regulations to be framed under this clause shall provide that there will be consultation between the new and the old fire authorities as regards the property which is in use both for fire service purposes and other purposes of the county district council, and that, in the absence of agreement between the two authorities as to the appropriate course to pursue, the matter should be submitted to the arbitration of the Secretary of State. The Amendment to Clause 13 to insert an additional subsection (4) is necessary to give effect to the undertaking given by the Home Secretary. It has been fully agreed with the Municipal Corporations Association and I hope your Lordships will endorse it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 13, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Walkden.)
LORD ADDINGTON: The noble Lord has moved an Amendment which covers rather the same ground as the one I have on the Marshalled List. There is only one difference into which the noble Lord might inquire. I understand his Amendment would cover only cases where there are two buildings the use of which cannot be separated one from the other. The point which I think may not be covered is where a single building is used for two purposes. I would like him to consider the matter before the next stage and see whether the point my Amendment was intended to cover cannot be incorporated in the words he intends to use. The intention of this Amendment, which also comes from the municipal authorities, is to avoid certain difficulties that arise under Section 13 (b) of the Police Act. If the noble Lord will have a look at that point, I will not move the next Amendment.
LORD WALKDEN: I can give the noble Lord an assurance that we will look into it. I had rather hoped that my larger Amendment would fully meet his case, and enable him to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD ADDINGTON: There is just that small point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WALKDEN LORD WALKDEN moved, after subsection (7), to insert:
"( ) The provisions of the Police Act, 1946, as to the transfer of property, rights and liabilities from the council of an area ceasing to be a separate police area to the council of a county or to a combined police authority—

(a) shall apply, and be deemed always to have applied, to property, rights and liabilities of the first-mentioned council held or incurred in connection with pensions, allowances or gratuities in respect of whole-time service for fire-fighting purposes in the police force of the said area and in respect of service for such purposes (whether before or after the said area ceased to be a separate police area) falling, by virtue of regulations made under the Fire Services (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1941, to be treated for the purposes of the Police Pensions Act, 1921, as service in that force;

(b) shall not apply, and shall be deemed never to have applied, to any other property, rights or liabilities held or incurred in connection with the provision of fire services;

and (without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a) of this subsection) the provisions of sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 3 of the Third Schedule to the said Act of 1946 as to the treatment of pensions, allowances and gratuities granted before the date of transfer in respect of members of a transferred force shall apply, and be deemed always to have applied, to pensions, allowances and gratuities granted before that date to members of the National Fire Service whose service therein fell by virtue of regulations made under the said Act of 1941 to be treated as service in the transferred force."
The noble Lord said: The subject dealt with here is rather technical, and has relation to the position of ex-police constables who serve as firemen. It is bound up with another Act of Parliament. The facts are that the Amendment relates to a number of firemen—about 1,000 in all, I understand—who until the formation of the National Fire Service were police firemen. The police fireman was a policeman employed on fire-fighting duties. He had the full status of other policemen. He was a member of a police force. He was sworn in as a constable, and he held his superannuation rights under the Police Pensions Acts. When the National Fire
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Service was formed, whole-time police firemen were transferred to the service and ceased to be constables. For pension purposes services in the National Fire Service was deemed to be service in the police force from which they were transferred. The Police Act, 1946, required the police forces of non-county boroughs to be amalgamated with the county police forces, and among the forces which thus ceased to have a separate existence were a number of forces which had included police firemen. The Police Act makes provision in such cases for the pension liability of the defunct police authority to be transferred to the new authority—that is, the county.
As, however, the police firemen were no longer members of the defunct force at the time of its amalgamation (although they were deemed to be serving in that force for pension purposes), some doubt has arisen as to their present pension position, and the object of this Amendment is to make it clear that the pension functions of the defunct police authority were in fact transferred at the appointed day of the Police Act, April 1, 1947. Other property and liabilities held or incurred in connexion with the provision of fire services by the defunct police authorities have not been transferred to the county, although they will, of course, be so transferred on the appointed day of this Bill. We were advised that the insertion of the Amendment relating to pensions might cast doubt on the position as regards other property, and paragraph (b) was included to remove any doubts on that score. I think it covers both points adequately, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 3, at end, insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 14 to 26, agreed to.
8.23 p.m.
Clause 27:
Firemen's Pension Scheme.
(2) The Firemen's Pension Scheme (hereafter in this and the next following section referred to as "the Scheme") may provide—

(i) for excluding in the case of an injury in respect of which an award is made by a fire authority under the Scheme, any other right to compensation or damages from the authority in respect of that injury or the

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consequences thereof, so however that no provision made by virtue of this paragraph shall affect any right under the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act, 1946, or the National Insurance Act, 1946;

LORD WALKDEN: The Amendments to the bottom of the page are all drafting Amendments, and it might be convenient to take them together. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 25, line 22, leave out ("provide") and insert ("include provision").
line 39, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment").
line 40, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment").
line 43, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment").
line 45, leave out ("of the service") and insert ("of service in employment").
Page 26, line 10, leave out from ("any") to beginning of line 11 and insert ("employment specified under").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD WALKDEN: The next Amendment is a consequential Amendment on an Amendment we have already agreed in respect of Clause 13. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 14, leave out from ("authority") to ("of") in line 15 and insert ("by which a person has been employed in employment specified under paragraph (b) of this subsection or which has incurred any liability in respect of the payment of a pension in the event of a person's retirement from employment so specified"). —(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WALKDEN: The next three Amendments are all drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 26, line 17, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment")
line 23, leave out from ("employment") to ("paragraph") in line 24 and insert ("specified under")
line 31, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD WALKDEN LORD WALKDEN moved, in paragraph (i) of subsection (2) after "for excluding," to leave out all words down to and including "in respect of that" and insert:
"or modifying, in the case of an injury in respect of which an award is made under the
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Scheme, being an injury sustained in the execution of duty in such circumstances as may be specified in the Scheme, any other right against the Crown or other authority in whose employment the injury occurred to compensation or damages in respect of the."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to provide injured people with an alternative remedy at law. It is intended to re-enact substantially an existing provision in the Fire Brigade Pensions Act (which is now being repealed), the point of which was that a fireman should not be able to prosecute an alternative claim for damages—for example, at Common Law, or under the Workmen's Compensation Acts—in respect of an injury sustained on duty, and at the same time to draw a pension under the Act in respect of that injury. The provision could not, however, be re-enacted without alteration, because the injured fireman in future must receive his injury pension under the National Insurance Scheme, which is the successor to the Workmen's Compensation Acts. There remains, however, the question of alternative remedies—for example, at Common Law—and the Bill, as drafted, was designed to exclude them. That is what we want to correct.
The subsection, however, is too widely drawn, and operates in cases in which it was never intended to be applied. An Amendment is, therefore, necessary. That being so, the opportunity is being taken to modify the subsection so as to allow the Secretary of State, when he comes to frame the scheme after appropriate consultations, either to exclude any form of compensation other than the injury pension or, alternatively, to abate in respect of the injury pension the amount of such compensation. The reason for this is that the Government have under consideration the whole question of alternative remedies, and it is intended eventually to introduce a Bill to deal with the matter. The Secretary of State must have sufficient freedom of action to make our scheme accord with the decision of Parliament. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 44, leave out from ("excluding") to ("injury") in line 47, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether the clause, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD FARINGDON: On this clause I would rather like to put a question to the noble Lord in connexion with certain remarks which I made on the Second Reading. I referred then to Fire Service gratuities. The point is one which I made at some length and I will not make it again. I have no doubt that the noble Lord on the Front Bench has a note of what I then said in connexion with the slight anomaly which arises here. Men who came into the fire service during the war and who have remained on in the fire service will draw a war gratuity which they can use to pay their arrears of pension contributions, whereas a regular fire service officer will not have received the gratuity and will, of course, have paid the contributions out of his salary during the war. It is suggested that it might be possible to treat war service in those cases as counting two years for one. I believe that in actual fact this is already possible under a fire service order, but it is only used nowadays in particular cases where it is required to facilitate retirement.
LORD CHORLEY: There is, of course, a good deal of feeling, and not unnaturally so, among firemen upon this particular matter. It results from a decision which was taken under the Coalition Government that certain types of men— policemen, firemen and others who were employed in their own occupations during the war years—should not be eligible for war gratuities on the basis that they were doing the jobs for which they had enlisted in the various kinds of service, whereas other men who were doing it specially as a war-time job would be granted gratuities. The grievance to which the noble Lord has drawn attention results from that decision, and it is one which cannot be righted by this two years' scheme in the way he has suggested. It would obviously be quite impossible to apply that particular remedy, which is on the face of it not a very satisfactory one, as I think most people will agree. Even if it were more satisfactory than I suggest it is, it could not be accepted with regard to policemen, railwaymen and other types of workers. That would involve a very wide range of men of one kind or another, and it goes far beyond the scope of a Bill of this kind. Therefore, whilst I recognize that the noble Lord speaks on behalf of men who feel keenly about this
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matter, I hope that he will agree that there is no practical remedy for it.
LORD FARINGDON: It is very unsatisfactory, if I may say so, to be offered sympathy where what one really wants is a loaf. The noble Lord appears to appreciate the justice of the feeling which I have been expressing, but also to take the line that there is nothing to be done about it. The possible solution I offered was not one to which I myself was particularly attached, but I believe that there are even greater difficulties in the way of granting a gratuity. I do suggest that if His Majesty's Government recognize the justice of it they should find some method of righting it.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
8.35 p.m.
Clause 28:
Firemen's Pension Scheme to supersede other statutory schemes.
…if any person—

(i) who was a member of the former brigade immediately before the eighteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and forty-one; or

(ii) who by virtue of having been a member of the former brigade was designated under paragraph (1) (b) of regulation 3 of the National Fire Service (Preservation of Pensions) (Police Firemen) Regulations, 1941, as a person in whose case those regulations should have effect; or

(iii) who immediately before the said eighteenth day of August was engaged in service or work in such circumstances that under the Police and Firemen (War Service) Act, 1939, his service or work fell to be treated as a period of approved service in the former brigade; and

(iv) who in any case becomes on the appointed day or on the termination thereafter of such service or work as aforesaid a member of the former brigade,

gives notice in that behalf to such authority and within such period as may be specified by the Scheme, the Scheme shall have effect in his case, so long as he remains a member of the former brigade, subject to the said modifications.
LORD FARINGDON LORD FARINGDON moved, in subsection (2), after "brigade," where that word last occurs, to insert:
"or in cases where since there is no vacancy he cannot return to his former brigade on signature of an undertaking to return at any time when a vacancy may occur."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment arises from a rather curious fact in this Bill. Where men have belonged to a

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brigade in which the pension rights are more favourable than they are to be under this Act, if they return to their original authority the men will be entitled to benefit from the pension terms of that authority. The principal authorities involved here are, I think, London, Birmingham and perhaps Leicester and Leeds—but anyhow several of the county boroughs. Unfortunately, whilst no doubt the men concerned would be willing to return there are no vacancies for them. For example, I understand that there are about 300 men who desire to return to London, where, however, the establishment is complete. Again, I think there are some 44 men who might desire to return to Birmingham. It would, therefore, seem extremely unjust that a man should be debarred from the advantages of a pension scheme to which he has subscribed in the past by the fact that he cannot fulfil the terms under this Act which would entitle him to it. My Amendment is aimed at giving him these advantages on signature of a certificate to say that he is willing to return to his original authority at any time there is a vacancy. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 17, after ("brigade") insert the said words.—(Lord Faringdon.)
LORD CHORLEY: The noble Lord's Amendment is really founded upon a misconception, the misconception being that these firemen will not be able to return to their former brigades. Actually, all professional firemen will have the option of returning to their former brigades or, of course, of accepting a post in one of the other brigades. It may be that they will not be able to return to their old brigades at the rank which they had won in other parts of the country as members of the National Fire Service. Obviously, it would not be practicable that every officer should be given an option of returning to his old brigade at the substantive rank which he has since achieved. But he will have the option of returning to his old brigade, and he will have to make up his mind whether he wants to go back at a lower rank or retain his position at the higher rank in the brigade in which he served during the war years. I am sure your Lordships will agree that that is a reasonable option and really remedies the sort of
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grievance which the noble Lord had in moving this Amendment.
LORD FARINGDON: I take it that what the noble Lord has said is correct, but I must confess that it is somewhat of a surprise to me. Of course I had not suggested for one moment that officers would be able to go back at the rank which they had obtained. As we are on this subject, may I ask the noble Lord another point which arises on the question of returning to a lower post? It is felt very strongly by the officers of the service that they might well receive some compensation for loss of office in cases where they have to return to the rank they held before the war, because had they remained with their own authority there is no doubt that they would, in the natural course of events, whether in peace time or in war time, have obtained very considerable promotion. Because they may have gone into the provinces and there done quite invaluable work, they may have to go back to the rank which they held before the war, and this is a matter which does seem to them to impose a certain hardship.
First of all, perhaps the noble Lord could reassure me that he is quite satisfied that all officers can go back to their original authorities—which I confess surprises me a little—and secondly that the Government will consider paying some compensation if these men are to wipe out the whole of their service during the war years. I am not talking about the rank they may have attained, because it may be a considerably greater rank, but in a matter of seven years any man does expect to make certain advances in his career. To have to return to the same situation as he was in seven years earlier would, I suggest, impose very considerable hardship.
LORD CHORLEY: On the first point the noble Lord raised, I repeat what I have already said, and I give the noble Lord the assurance for which he asks. All professional firemen will have the option of returning to their former brigades. With regard to the last matter, I really cannot give him a categorical undertaking that nobody will suffer, but it seems to me that it is very unlikely indeed that there will be any cases of the kind he suggests. If there are one or two, obviously they will not be in a worse position than many men

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in the Armed Services of the Crown who achieved high rank and have had to go back to civilian occupations at a much reduced one. These are men who have done distinguished service in many parts of the country, and I think there can be no question that practically every one of them will be given the opportunity of service in the new county and county borough brigades at a much higher rank than that which they originally held in the brigade from which they came. Obviously there may be exceptions to that, but I think we may take it that they will be very rare indeed.
LORD FARINGDON: I thank the noble Lord very much for his reply and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clause 29 [Supplementary provisions as to preservation of pensions, etc.]:
LORD WALKDEN: The whole of these six Amendments are closely related. They are all drafting Amendments. I am sure your Lordships will agree to them. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 31, line 16, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment")
line 23, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment")
line 24, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment")
line 25, leave out ("service") and insert ("employment")
line 31, leave out ("service or")
line 33, leave out ("service or")—(Lord Walkden).
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 30 to 36, agreed to.
8.42 p.m.
Clause 37:
Application to Scotland.
(2) For any reference to the Minister of Health there shall be substituted a reference to the Secretary of State; for any reference to a county borough there shall be substituted a reference to a large burgh within the meaning of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929, (hereinafter referred to as the Act of 1929), and any other burgh shall be deemed to be included within the county in which it is situate; the expressions "county" and "council" mean, in relation to counties combined for the purposes mentioned in subsection (7) of Section
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ten of the Act of 1929, the combined county and the joint county council; for any reference to a county district there shall be substituted a reference to a small burgh within the meaning of the Act of 1920; for any reference to a combination scheme there shall be substituted a reference to an administration scheme; for any reference to statutory water undertakers there shall be substituted a reference to a local water authority within the meaning of the Water (Scotland) Act, 1946; for references to the Water Act, 1945, and to Sections thirty-two to thirty-four and thirty-six of the Third Schedule thereto there shall be respectively substituted references to the Water (Scotland) Act, 1946, and to sections nineteen to twenty-one and twenty-three of the Fourth Schedule thereto; for references to the chief officer and deputy chief officer of a fire brigade there shall be respectively substituted references to a firemaster and a deputy firemaster; and any reference to a fire authority shall, unless the context otherwise requires, he construed as including a reference to a joint committee constituted in pursuance of the provisions hereinafter contained.
(3) It shall be the duty of the councils of the counties and large burghs comprised in any one of the areas set forth in the Fourth Schedule to this Act to prepare and submit to the Secretary of State within three months after the passing of this Act a scheme (herein-, after referred to as an "administration scheme") for the provision in that area of the services required by Section one of this Act, and the Secretary of State may by order approve any scheme so submitted to him.
LORD MORRISON: This is a drafting Amendment. I move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 7, leave out from ("thereto") to end of line 9, and insert ("for any reference, in relation to a fire brigade, to the chief officer, there shall be substituted a reference to the firemaster").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FARINGDON LORD FARINGDON moved in subsection (2), to leave out "for references to the chief officer and deputy chief officer of a fire brigade there shall be respectively substituted references to a firemaster and a deputy firemaster," and to insert:
"references to the chief officer or deputy chief officer shall apply to persons who in the past have held the positions of firemaster and deputy firemaster, these officers in the future to be known by the same designation as in England."
The noble Lord said: This is a matter which I mentioned on the Second Reading. I confess it is a Scottish affair, in which I tread rather warily, though, being wholly Scottish in my origins, I may claim some little right to speak; but in this case I am informed that the Scottish Office desire a change in their title.

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I dare say His Majesty's Government have more information on the point than I have. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 7, leave out from ("thereto") to the end of line 9, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Faringdon.)
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I hope the Government will not accept this Amendment. After all, "firemaster" is a very old term. If you call a man a firemaster you know what he is. If you call a man a chief officer he may be something in any other body—it may be the Navy or some other Service. I should say that if the Government wished to make any alteration at all they might call chief officers in England and Wales "fire-masters" and "deputy firemasters."
LORD MORRISON: The noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, raised this question on the Second Reading. I should be interested to know on what evidence he based his statement, as the Scottish Home Department has no evidence that there is any such desire on the part of Scottish fire officers. The Scottish title "fire-master" has a long and honourable tradition behind it, and inquiries instituted since the Amendment was put down have failed to reveal any desire for the proposed change.
LORD FARINGDON: I entirely share the feeling of the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, and I would much prefer to use the word "firemaster". But this matter was put to me by the Officers' Association and I assumed that they had had contacts with the Scottish officers; therefore I put down the Amendment. I realize that the noble Lord has had inquiries made, but I will myself prosecute inquiries, and should I be convinced that there is such a demand—and I believe that people should be called what they like to be called—I shall put down an Amendment on the Report stage. With that proviso, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MORRISON LORD MORRISON moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "within three months after the passing of this Act" and insert
"before the first day of January nineteen hundred and forty-eight or such later date as the Secretary of State may in special circumstances allow."
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The noble Lord said: Under the Bill as originally drafted it was contemplated that the administration scheme should be drawn up and approved by the Secretary of State within three months of the passing of the Bill, the establishments being determined thereafter. In terms, however, of the new Clause 20 and of the Second Schedule moved in Committee in another place, establishment matters are to form part of the administration schemes for the joint areas and the joint committees will have to submit that part in draft to the councils of all the small burghs in their areas. In these circumstances it seemed appropriate to extend the three months' time limit originally proposed for the preparation of administration schemes to the same limit as is proposed in Clause 20 for the preparation of establishment schemes by fire authorities in England and Wales—namely, January 1, 1948, "or such later date as the Secretary of State may in special circumstances allow." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 17, leave out ("within three months after the passing of this Act") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON LORD MORRISON moved to leave out paragraph (f) of subsection (4). The noble Lord said: This Amendment is consequential on the passing of the Local Government (Scotland) Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 44, leave out paragraph (f). —(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: This is a drafting Amendment. I move.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 11, leave out from ("in") to ("including") and insert ("connexion with the provision of fire services").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: This Amendment and the next are drafting Amendments to correct the inadvertent restriction of the application of the sanctions against disclosure of trade secrets such as may be obtained in entering factories and workshops. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 13, leave out ("a factory, workshop or workplace") and insert ("any premises"). —(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 15, leave out ("in the factory, workshop or workplace") and insert ("therein").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MORRISON: This is a drafting Amendment. I move.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 8, after ("grants") insert ("in respect of expenditure incurred by them").—(Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved, at the end of the clause to insert:
"(23) Where it appears to the Secretary of State that the provisions of this Act are unduly onerous and unlikely to provide a satisfactory service, he may by regulation exempt, conditionally or unconditionally, any areas or portions of areas mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act from all or any of the provisions of this Act."
The noble Earl said: If I may move this Amendment on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, I should like to point out that there is a fundamental difference in this Bill between England and Scotland. Whereas the Bill in England is creating local fire authorities, it is not doing so in Scotland. I think the noble Lord knows that when this was discussed in another place there was criticism of the Bill from all sides. The two big associations, the Association of County Councils and the Convention of Royal Burghs, did not agree to the terms in which the Bill has been framed. It is true that their criticism was in somewhat opposite directions. Nevertheless they did not agree with the form which the Bill in fact took. We are not taking this matter very far here, but we thought that a wider measure of discretion should be allowed to the Secretary of State in applying the measure.
May I show the diversity of the Scottish aspect as compared with the English aspect? I ask your Lordships to look at Clause 5, which concerns a voluntary scheme of combination of fire authorities. If you look in the Fourth Schedule in which the combined areas in Scotland are specified, however, there is no question of a voluntary association at all. How the
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northern combination, consisting of Zetland, the Orkneys, the Outer Hebrides, and the crofting counties, will form into effective areas in three months' time, I do not know. All this Amendment is trying to do is to bring some wider latitude into a Bill which is, in fact, not an agreed one. I would like to move the Amendment with this alteration: taking out the word "exempt" appearing in the third line, and inserting the word "modify".
I think that the burden of this Bill on certain of the outlying counties will be very heavy. In the seven crofting counties it will cost £35,000 a year to run. That means an 8d. rate. The rate is already extremely high and I do not think an increase is necessary or right. The position may improve next year. No doubt it may be improved by Government grant. But this Bill should stand on its own merits. Finally the scheme itself has really a very limited value to outlying places. It will be of value to Inverness, to Dingwall, and to Fort William, but to the Feat areas of the country in outlying places it is of no value at all. Access is very difficult, and when you do get to the place there are no hydrants. It will also be a heavy burden on the taxpayers, and will bring great difficulties. If the Government will allow this wider measure of discretion to the Secretary of State it will give satisfaction, and I think, in the circumstances, it is justified. I beg leave to move the Amendment as it stands.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 35, at end insert the said subsection.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I should like to support what my noble friend has said. I confess that I could not have supported Lord Lovat, and I do not like the word "exempt," because "exempt" is a hard and fast word, and if you exempt anything you must cut it out. I would not like to leave out the Highlands, because I know, from my experience during the war, how extremely keen and able some of the fire services were in even the most remote parts. It is quite true that there are a large number of places there that cannot really be served at all. There are, of course, some in other parts of Scotland, but those are the places which I think my noble friend Lord Selkirk would like left out of the Bill at the present time,

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but I would not like it. I would appeal to my noble friend, Lord Morrison, to produce an Amendment on the Report stage which is like this Amendment but has not the word "exempt." One cannot alter the word "exempt" to "modify" without making the whole Amendment ungrammatical.
I would like to point out that there are places at the present time in the Highlands which cannot possibly be helped by the fire service. On the other hand, the whole hydro-electric scheme, which is costing £30,000,000, was planned, I understand, to help factories to be built and people to be employed in the Highlands; and there may come a time when the Highlands will be vastly more populous than they are now—in fact, that is what we are all looking to in Scotland—and those places will obviously want a fire service. There may be places, therefore, which we do not want exempted in the Bill, but we would like the noble Lord to produce something which would take away the hardship from these crofters who have no possible chance of using a fire service, at the same time modifying it so that if, as we all hope, prosperity and factories and towns come to the Highlands it will still be possible to reimpose the fire service in those districts. I would ask if it is possible to help in this way to some degree.
LORD MORRISON: I think we are fortunate in that the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, who played such a useful part in fire prevention in Scotland during the war, should have been able to come and join us in our deliberations. He has been very candid. He has said that he does not like the word "exempt," and neither do I; nor, I think does the noble Earl, the Earl of Selkirk. It looks as if a part of Scotland is backing out and leaving certain counties high and dry, without any provision for fire protection. The problem is as to whether, under the present Bill, it will be possible for the Secretary of State to take full cognizance of the variations that exist in Scotland by having a sufficiently well modified scheme. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, said that there had been criticism throughout Scotland and in another place. I have read those criticisms, but it would not be a Scottish Bill if there were no criticism! In my brief experience of
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being connected with Scottish legislation, I have come to take it as a matter of course that there is criticism, and violent criticism, on all subjects; and there must be something seriously wrong with the Bill if there is no criticism, however small, going on.
It seems to me that we are in agreement on this point: that it would not be in the best interests of the citizens of these areas that they should have no fire protection at all. They have as much claim to protection as the inhabitants of the big cities. If that proposition is accepted, I suggest that what the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, asks for might be effected under the Bill as it stands, by Clause 1, subsection (1), where fire authorities are required to provide such fire services as may be necessary to meet normal requirements, and by Clause 1, subsection (3) where the Secretary of State is empowered to prescribe standards of efficiency, which may vary according to the requirements of, and the facilities available, in different kinds of locality.
The future fire authorities in the Highland counties have already indicated to the Secretary of State their view that special arrangements ought to be made to meet the particular requirements of their areas, and they have been assured that the Secretary of State will have those requirements particularly in mind when making regulations under Clause 1, subsection (3) The effect of this Bill as it stands is, in fact, to require the Highland authorities, in combination, to provide such fire services as the circumstances of the area justify. The noble Lord has pointed out how difficult it will be to get them to enter into voluntary combination or co-operation. I know that perfectly well, but you cannot allow the public to suffer merely because local authorities, month after month, go on failing to agree. There comes a time when somebody has to step in and make them agree, unless the particular area is to be left entirely unprotected.
I would like, if I may, to say one word—although I did not spend the war years in Scotland—in relation to something which was borne upon me in London, and that was the importance of fire prevention. It is at least as important as fire extinguishing; in fact, it is easier to prevent a fire than to put it

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out, and it does seem to me that, as a nation, we have failed very much in the past in not concentrating our efforts on fire prevention. We found it necessary during the war to do that, of course, but it was rather remarkable how many fires were caused by people having large stocks of combustible materials lying about on their premises. I think in areas like Sutherland, where the population is something like seven per square mile, it is silly to talk about fire engines and that sort of thing, but a good deal of the work could be done, at no great cost by fire prevention appliances, even if they consisted only of buckets of water and sand provided at the right place.
The noble Lord has pointed out that a figure of £35,000 has been mentioned. A suggested cover scheme has been put to the authorities in the Highlands of Scotland which would involve the maintenance of a station run on a full-time basis at Inverness. That scheme envisages fifteen stations manned on a part-time retained basis—that is to say by part-time firemen receiving a small retaining fee—in the main centres of population in the area; and twenty-six stations, manned wholly by unpaid volunteers, in the area in which the provision of some degree of fire cover seems to be desirable. Steps are already being taken for a modified form of manning, and these have been put up to the fire authorities. The Secretary of State will be very ready to consider any further suggestions which these authorities may make in the direction of revising standards of manning. It is impossible at this stage to give definite figures as to the cost, for the simple reason that it will depend upon the nature of the proposals submitted by the joint committee under Clause 20, as well as upon the standard of efficiency insisted upon by the Secretary of State. No useful purpose can be served by the Secretary of State insisting upon a scheme which would place a crippling charge upon the area.
In reply to the financial case, I only want to say that the Government have indicated—the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, said this in a cynical way, but perhaps he did not mean it!—their intention to secure, by a review of the financial relations between the State and local authorities now in progress, that Government assistance is given to those areas
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where the need is greatest. It can confidently be anticipated, therefore, that under the new arrangements for Exchequer assistance to local authorities the very special needs of the Highlands will be taken into account. The object of the new finance schemes will be to give the needy areas like the Highlands such assistance as they require to maintain their local government services on an appropriate standard without placing an unreasonable burden on the ratepayers. If effect is given to this principle there is no reason why fire services on a standard appropriate to Highland needs should involve the ratepayers in an oppressive rate burden. The Highlands cannot have it both ways. If they are to be relieved of any obligation to supply a fire service, they can have no case for special Exchequer assistance for local government, which is justified only by the necessity of providing essential services without undue expense to the ratepayers in these low valued areas. I suggest that this Amendment means putting the clock back. During the war, under the excellent work of the noble Earl, the area was better covered for fire protection than ever before. Possibly, Scotland would have preferred nationalization to continue! In any case, that cannot be, and I can only say that I hope the noble Earl will not press his Amendment, but, if between now and the next stage the noble Earl would like to have consultations on the matter with myself and the Departments concerned, I shall be very pleased to take part in them.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I should like to thank the noble Lord very much for his very helpful statements. A great deal of information is, in fact, new and I am sure that it will be welcomed as some idea of what is intended. There is no doubt that there is considerable anxiety about these matters. Whether or not it is justified I do not know, but those who do know are worried about it. I am very glad indeed that the noble Lord has appreciated this point, and I will accept his offer to discuss whether some other Amendment can be put forward. I have in mind some such words as:
"modifies the application of this Act in such areas as he may think wise."
I will draft it out; something of that sort may be acceptable. I would endorse what the noble Lord said about fire pre-

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vention; so far as I know, there is not one word about fire prevention in this Bill from beginning to end.
LORD CHORLEY: This is the first Bill which really does introduce fire prevention.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
9.5 p.m.
Second Schedule [Application to combined fire authorities of provisions as to establishment schemes and management schemes]:
LORD WALKDEN: The Amendments to the Second Schedule are purely drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 42, after the second ("scheme") insert ("or management scheme, as the case may be").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 46, leave out ("section") and insert ("Schedule").—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to. Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.
House resumed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, there will be no meeting for public business tomorrow. The next meeting will be on Monday next, July 14, at 2.30 p.m.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (GOVER- NOR'S ALLOWANCES AND PRIVI- LEGES) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1947;
GOVERNMENT OF BURMA (GOVER- NOR'S SALARY, ALLOWANCES AND PRIVILEGES) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1947;
GOVERNMENT OF BURMA (HIGH COURT JUDGES) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1947.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution, and referred to the India and Burma Orders Committee.

NEWHAVEN AND SEAFORD SEA DEFENCES BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the said Bill.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at nine minutes past nine o'clock.