Sitting of 15 December 1947

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  GERMANY

    Inter-Zonal Trade
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the figures of trade between the British and Russian zones of Germany in the year 1946–47.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): Between 1st September, 1946, and 31st December, 1946, the value of deliveries from the British zone to the Soviet zone totalled approximately 46 million Reichsmarks, against deliveries from the Soviet zone to the British zone amounting to approximately 28½ million Reichsmarks. On 1st January, 1947, the British and United States zones were combined, and deliveries from the combined zone to the Soviet zone between that date and 31st August, 1947, came to approximately 59 million Reichsmarks. During that period the Soviet zone delivered goods to the approximate value of 75 million Reichsmarks to the combined zone.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is the Under-Secretary able to give any comparison between the present volume of trade and the trade normally obtaining in peacetime?
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir, I cannot do that; indeed, I should be very doubtful whether that calculation could be made, bearing in mind the entirely new and artificial nature of the frontiers.

    Control Commission (New Motor Cars)
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many new British cars have been supplied to the Control Commission in Germany during the past 12 months.
    Mr. Mayhew: Seven hundred and six, during the 12 months ended 30th November, 1947.
    Mr. Shepherd: How does the Under-Secretary defend this number of vehicles being sent over to Germany, (a), in view of the production of cars in Germany itself, and, (b), in view of enormous number of cars surplus to war requirements rotting in parks in Germany?
    Mr. Mayhew: There are a number of cars rotting in parks, and a number of the Control Commission cars which were requisitioned earlier are tending to rot. I should require notice of the first part of the question.

    Administration (Correspondence)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has considered the correspondence that has been sent to him concerning maladministration among the personnel of the Control Commission in Germany; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Mayhew: I am having this correspondence examined, and, with the hon. Member's permission, I shall write to him on the subject.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the continued accusations against the administration of the Control Commission and the consequential loss of. British prestige, will the Under-Secretary have all these cases examined so that they can be substantiated or repudiated?
    Mr. Mayhew: I do have all these cases looked into, but few of them have concrete evidence to support them.
    Sir Peter Macdonald: Is it not a fact that the Select Committee on Estimates, who were in Germany recently and reported on these particular cases, refuted the statements made in a great many of them, and said that the Control Commission were doing a very excellent job?
    Mr. Mayhew: I am sure that that is the general view of well-informed people.

    Army Building, Brunswick (Entry Permit)
    Earl Wintertonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that in September last a German was permitted to enter a British Army building in Brunswick, entry to which is normally forbidden to Germans, on the production of a document signed by the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg); and if this permission is authorised by any order or instructions issued by the Control Commission in British-occupied Germany.
    Mr. Mayhew: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir," and to the second part, "No, Sir." I am satisfied, however, that in the circumstances the Control Commission official concerned behaved in a proper manner.

    Employed British Personnel
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British personnel, in convenient categories, are employed in the British zone in Germany.
    Mr. Mayhew: Eighteen thousand six hundred and eighty-five British subjects were employed by the Control Commission in the British zone of Germany on 1st November, 1947. In addition, 496 were employed in the United States zone, and elsewhere, on the work of the Commission. With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the breakdown of these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is it not obvious that the number is far too great for the work they do, and would it not be better to send some of them home to do productive work in this country?
    Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir, it is a large number. We have reduced it considerably in the last month or so, and have a considerable programme of reductions in sight.
    Mr. Scollan: Are not the Americans getting just as good results with 496 as we are with 18,000?
    Mr. Mayhew: The noble Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is investigating the whole question of the size, organisation and functions of the Control Commission.
    Mr. Shepherd: The Minister says that there is a considerable programme of reduction in hand. Will he tell us the ultimate reduction to be aimed at in the present programme?
    Mr. Mayhew: That is one of the things which is being considered by the noble Lord.
    Following are the figures:

    ——

    Civilian.

    Service.

    Total.

    1st November, 1947:

    Senior Officers

    476

    68

    544

    Other Officers

    7,232

    325

    7,557

    Clerks, etc.

    10, 367

    713

    11,080

    Total

    18,075

    1,106

    19,181

    Clerk's Death (Burial Arrangements)
    Mr. Mackasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why Mr. and Mrs. Harry Davies, 14, Albert Street, Newcastle-under-Lyme, were refused permission to travel to Germany at their own expense to attend the funeral of their daughter Marjorie, a Control Commission clerk, who was found drowned in her bath at Dusseldorf; and why have the parents been refused the right to bring her body home to England, or failing that, to visit her grave in Germany next spring.
    Mr. Mayhew: I am sorry to say that it is still not possible to provide travel and accommodation facilities for relatives to attend the funerals of members of the Control Commission who die in Germany. The existing arrangement for burials is that members of the Control Commission who die on service are buried in war cemeteries in Germany under the same arrangements as apply to members of the Armed Forces. So long as this practice continues the rules of the Imperial War Graves Commission, which do not allow repatriation of bodies, must be observed. This arrangement, however, is being reviewed. No application to visit Germany in the spring has been received from Mr. and Mrs. Davies.
    Mr. Mack: In view of the distress which has been caused in the Newcastle-under-Lyme district, and, indeed, throughout the whole country, by this case, and the fact that this was an only child, whose

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    parents were prepared to bear their own expenses, although they are by no means rich, will not my hon. Friend review the case, and see if anything can be done?
    Mr. Mayhew: I am aware of the distress felt about this matter, and some inaccurate newspaper reports have not been helpful. The facts are as I have stated. While these arrangements are being made under the regulations of the Imperial War Graves Commission, I think it would be a very difficult precedent if I made an exception in this case.
    Mr. Keeling: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the answer he gave about travel is not correct, and that it is possible to get a passage to Germany through an ordinary travel agent without any help from the Foreign Office provided the Foreign Office grant permission?
    Mr. Mayhew: We are preparing a scheme for travel and accommodation facilities for relatives in these cases.
    Mr. Keeling: That is no answer to my Question.
    Mr. Mack: My hon. Friend said that no application has been received from the parents to visit the grave. That is not my information. But if an application of that kind is received by him, will he promise to give it favourable and sympathetic consideration?
    Mr. Mayhew: I will certainly give it due consideration.
    Mr. Lipson: The hon. Gentleman said that the whole position was being reviewed. In this review, will consideration be paid to natural human feelings, as such consideration does not seem to have played very much part in the matter so far?
    Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. I have not perhaps made it clear that the existing arrangements put the officials of the Control Commission, at the moment, under the regulations of the Imperial War Graves Commission. Hon. Members will appreciate that these regulations also apply to a large number of relatives of Service men. There is this difficulty therefore: That while we apply these regulations, we must apply them to everybody concerned in the same way. Until a change has been made in the regulations I am not willing to make an exception.

    Banned Organisation
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what complaints were made by the participating authorities in the Allied Kommandatura as to the work of the Kulturbund zur demokratischen Erneuerung Deutschlands in re-educating the German people in the spirit of democracy and international understanding; on what dates were they made; and by whom.
    Mr. Mayhew: I am not aware that any such complaint has been made.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Is my hon. Friend aware that this organisation of some 120,000 people includes leading writers, scientists, actors, etc., from all the sectors and zones of Germany, that up to the date of the ban imposed by my right hon. Friend, it enjoyed the highest support of the occupation authorities in each of the zones, and will he bear that in mind?
    Mr. Mayhew: I am not clear what my hon. Friend means. In point of fact, no application has been received from this organisation.
    Mr. Shepherd: Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that when he has finished re-educating the Germans in the spirit of democracy and international understanding, he will turn to others in equally urgent need of re-education?
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Kulturbund zur demokratischen Erneuerung Deutschlands addressed an application on 30th October to the Allied Kommandatura for permission to function once again in all sectors in Berlin; that as no unanimous decision was reached, the application was remitted to the Allied Control Council; and whether he will instruct the British representative on the Control Council to support the application when it comes up for consideration.
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. The Kulturbund has not yet addressed an application to the Allied Kommandatura for permission to function. The British representatives in Berlin have already stated that they are prepared to give such an application favourable consideration if and when submitted.
    Mr. Platts-Mills: Will my hon. Friend he good enough to inquire whether or not an application has been received?
    Mr. Mayhew: I think that my hon. Friend is misinformed, and that the application to which he is referring was an inquiry whether it was necessary to apply.

    Motor Cars (Pleasure> Purposes)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has considered the statement sent to him concerning the use of motor cars by German civilians to enable them to attend sporting functions and for other pleasure purposes; and why petrol can be used in Germany in this way at a time when the basic petrol ration has been abolished in this country.
    Mr. Mayhew: My right hon. Friend has called for a report on the statement referred to by the hon. Member and will communicate with him as soon as possible.
    Mr. Lipson: Is the Minister aware that statements such as I have indicated in the Question, and which appear in the Press, cause a lot of feeling in this country; and will he take steps to ensure that they are promptly repudiated, if untrue, or confirmed, if true?
    Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. We have called for an immediate inquiry into this case.

  AUSTRIA (SENTENCED RAILWAYMEN)
  Mr. John Hyndasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will instruct the British representative on the Austrian Control Commission to make representations in regard to Austrian railwaymen who were sentenced by Russian military courts to long terms of imprisonment arising from railway accidents in respect of which the Austrian authorities have cleared of culpability the men concerned; and to elicit on what specific charges these men were convicted.
  Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. The British authorities in Austria cannot intervene in the sentences of a military court approved by the Soviet High Commissioner in his own Zone. My hon. Friend will, however, be aware of reports that the Austrian Government, as well as the chairmen of all three political parties in Upper Austria, have appealed to the Soviet authorities against these particular sentences.
  Mr. Hynd: As the Allied control of Austria is quadripartite, cannot my hon.
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  Friend ascertain from our Russian colleagues what the specific charges are in these cases? As there is no suggestion of any misdemeanour on the part of these railwaymen, will he represent to our Soviet colleagues that it is undesirable that the name of democratic justice should be besmirched by such sentences?
  Mr. Mayhew: I will certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend says, but we have also to consider the actual effect that any representations we make are likely to have.

  FOREIGN OFFICE DOCUMENTS (PUBLICATION)
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will arrange with the editors of "Documents in British Foreign Policy 1919–39," to publish a further volume covering the period 1939–45.
  Mr. Mayhew: His Majesty's Government would prefer not to commit themselves at this stage to an extension of the period beyond the outbreak of war in 1939, but the question of such an extension—which would involve much more than one volume—is continually kept in mind.
  Mr. Hughes: In view of the interest in the history of international relationships in 1940, will my right hon. Friend consider publishing the documents which show that we were contemplating an attack on Soviet Russia?
  Mr. Mayhew: I repudiate the implication in that question, and I have nothing to add about publications beyond what I have said.
  Mr. Hughes: If my hon. Friend repudiates the allegation, how does he explain the correspondence that was published in the Swedish White Book?
  Mr. Mayhew: It illustrates our anxiety about the sources of German war supplies.

  FOREIGN SERVICE (PAY AND ALLOWANCES)
  Mr. William Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement about

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  the new regulations for pay and allowances for members of the Diplomatic and Consular Service serving abroad; and how they can in future be adjusted to local cost of living.
  Mr. Mayhew: The regulations for the Senior Branch of the Foreign Service were published in the "London Gazette" on 14th January last. Since then the salary scale of certain grades has been revised, parallel with revisions effected in the Home scales. Regulations for the executive and clerical and the typing branches have also been published this year. Foreign allowances are calculated to meet the needs of posts individually and are fixed after visits by Foreign Service inspectors. The great majority of countries have been visited recently and the survey should be completed in 1948. Provision is made for automatic adjustments in allowances to take account of significant variations in cost of living and rates of exchange.
  Mr. Teeling: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that 1948 is a long way off, and can he make sure that the people who have been suffering in the last year or two because of this position will be reimbursed for any losses they may have suffered?
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. The adjustments will be retrospective.
  Mr. Teeling: Will the hon. Gentleman make sure that Ambassadors and Ministers will be allowed some elasticity in future, if any local financial crisis arises, to help their subordinates before a decision has been reached by the Treasury?
  Mr. Mayhew: I appreciate that suggestion, and I will consider it.
  Mr. Vernon Bartlett: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how many officials are carrying out this survey? He will appreciate that the cost of living in these different countries changes quickly, and that it is important that these surveys should be made frequently.
  Mr. Mayhew: I cannot say without notice. But I would like to point out that the arrangements they make are not designed to adjust certain scales of allowances to the cost of living, but to lay down a formula by which the allowances are related to the cost of living.

  BRITISH INTERNEES, SHANGHAI
  Mr. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why over 500 notices have recently been issued to British subjects interned in Shanghai during the war, demanding repayment of the £I a week allowed them whilst interned; to what length he will go to recover these sums in view of the strong feeling against repayment existing in Shanghai; and why this sum cannot be recovered as reparations from the Japanese in the Peace Treaty.
  Mr. Mayhew: The notices sent out request the persons concerned to refund advances made to them by the Protecting Power as a charge on British funds against undertakings to repay. A concession rate of £2 a month per person is adopted, though the cost to public funds at its highest was about £25 a month. There is no intention of pressing for repayment where hardship would be caused thereby. The fact of internment by itself does not, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, constitute grounds for a claim against an enemy belligerent.
  Mr. Teeling: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the notices given to these people in Shanghai did not suggest that ordinary cases would be treated leniently? They were considered as "dunning" notices. Can he say why the Japanese, by means of reparations, should not pay for what these people have gone through?
  Mr. Mayhew: The notes which go out are accompanied by an invitation to apply for exemption in the case of hardship. In a large number of cases compassionate exemptions have been granted. It is also true that many internees, for instance, those associated with large firms, had their salaries paid throughout the war. The scheme has worked well, large numbers of people have paid up and large numbers have been exempted.
  Captain Marsden: Have 500 notices been sent out to each person, because, if so, that is rather overdoing it, even for a Socialist Government?
  Mr. Mayhew: Most people pay up before then.
  Mr. Gammans: Does the hon. Gentleman's answer mean that these wretched people must pay the Japanese for locking them up?
  Mr. Mayhew: It means nothing of the kind.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Is this not a matter of principle? Surely, if it is just for one to pay it is just for the other, or both should not have to pay. Why is it only in the matter of hardship that a thing is considered to be unjust?
  Mr. Mayhew: This is a matter where one case differs from another. It is very different where the salary of a person has been paid throughout the whole of the war.
  Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Has there been a means test?
  Mr. Mayhew: This method performs the job without undue rigidity, and has regard to each individual.
  Mr. Teeling: Will the hon. Gentleman reply to the point I made as to why the Japanese should not pay for this?
  Mr. Mayhew: It is, I think, an established fact that internment is no ground for a claim against an enemy belligerent.
  Mr. Teeling: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  YUGOSLAVIA (DISPLACED PERSONS)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the breaking-off by Yugoslavia of the Anglo-Yugoslav agreement on the repatriation of displaced persons.
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. On 10th December His Majesty's Government received a Note from the Yugoslav Ambassador stating that his Government considered the agreement on the repatriation of displaced persons, which was signed on 8th September, to be invalid, on the grounds that His Majesty's Government were making no effort to fulfil its terms. This news was at the same time released to the Press.
  His Majesty's Government are surprised that the Yugoslav Government should have denounced the Bled Agreement in this way after so short a period of trial, and without discussing the matter with us beforehand. We gave full facilities to Yugoslav repatriation missions, and a special liaison team has gone to Austria
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  to try and persuade Yugoslav displaced persons to return voluntarily. We gave these teams the same facilities as the Polish teams in Germany and Austria, who succeeded in getting some 50,000 volunteers to go back. The fact that the Yugoslav teams were meeting with much less success cannot be laid at our door.
  The Yugoslav Note also complains that we have failed to hand over collaborators under the terms of the Agreement. Many of the men whose names were submitted to us by the Yugoslav Government are not in British-controlled territory; but we have held for questioning those in British-controlled territory whom we have so far managed to trace. As those against whom we find that there is a prima facie case of collaboration with the enemy are turned over to the Yugoslav authorities the House will appreciate that we cannot take hasty decisions based on insufficient evidence on matters which may involve life and death.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Extra Cheese Ration
    Mr. Heathcoat Amoryasked the Minister of Food whether he will extend the extra cheese ration to all those who work in the open including lorry drivers in rural areas if their employment makes it necessary for them to carry a mid-day meal with them.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): I regret that I cannot extend the extra cheese ration to every worker whose employment may take him into a rural area.
    Mr. Amory: Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration that a number of truck drivers in rural areas do a good deal of loading and unloading as well as driving; and will he look into the matter again, as it appears that the rules as at present drafted exclude a large number of people in rural areas who cannot get home for a midday meal or go to a canteen?
    Mr. Strachey: I would very much like to extend the special cheese ration as widely as possible in rural areas. We have just extended it to a new large category—the rural builders—and I am afraid that we cannot go further at the moment because of supplies.
    Mr. York: Is the Minister aware that lorry drivers working for private contractors do not receive this extra cheese ration, whereas lorry drivers working for county councils do; and does he realise the number of similar anomalies to this that are in existence?
    Mr. Strachey: I will look into that point, but I am not aware of it.
    Mr. Amoryasked the Minister of Food why persons who would qualify otherwise for the extra cheese ration are ineligible if they are self-employed; and whether he will take steps to correct this anomaly.
    Mr. Strachey: As a general rule, self-employed workers are able to make arrangements for obtaining a mid-day meal. I regret that I cannot allow them the special cheese ration.
    Mr. Amory: Will the Minister look into this matter again? I think that he will find, particularly in the case of small self-employed men—like the small builder working side by side with his men—the present regulations prevent such people from getting extra cheese?
    Mr. David Renton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many smallholding farmers, whose homes are not close to their fields, are not able to get a hot midday meal, and as the regulations are based on a wrong assumption will he reconsider them?
    Mr. Strachey: Self-employers in rural areas are, for the greater part, farmers, as my hon. Friend suggests; but I cannot agree that they are in a specially difficult position with regard to food. I think that they are in a very much more favoured position than most of us.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this? Is he not aware that a large number of market gardeners and others are self-employed and work at considerable distances from their homes? In view of the fact that this arrangement about special rations was come to long before any differentiation was allowed for in the rationing system, surely, it is right for the whole question to be reconsidered now?
    Mr. Strachey: I cannot agree.
    Mr. De la Bère: Why not?
    Major Tufton Beamish: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Boarding Schools (Milk)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Food what facilities are available to children at boarding schools to secure their allowance of school milk during holiday periods.
    Mr. Strachey: With the agreement of the education authorities of the areas in which they live, boarding school children may attend holiday centres and obtain their school milk in the same way as day school children.
    Mr. Beswick: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether an agreement has to be made with the education authority on behalf of the individual school child, or whether it is an agreement between his Department and the Ministry of Education?
    Mr. Strachey: I think that it has to be made between the schools concerned and the local education authority.
    Mr. Beswick: Will the right hon. Gentleman publicise this arrangement as much as possible before the Christmas holidays, because many parents, and, according to my information, some local authorities, are unaware of it?
    Mr. Symonds: Must the milk be consumed at the school or centre, or can it be taken home?
    Mr. Strachey: It must be consumed at the centre.
    Mr. Teeling: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us where these centres are?
    Mr. Strachey: That is a matter for the local education authority concerned.

    Nuts (Prices)
    Mr. Norman Bowerasked the Minister of Food what representations he has received from trade organisations as to the encouragement which is likely to be given to foreign shippers of edible nuts in shell to raise their prices in view of the prices realised at the recent auctions in this country.
    Mr. Strachey: I have received none; nor do I expect that the sale of a relatively small stock on this market will have the effect feared by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Bower: When the right hon. Gentleman says that he has received no information, does that mean that before he decided to auction the nuts, he failed to read the memorandum submitted to him by the Edible Nuts Executive Panel in which that very point was expressly made?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. I am aware of these representations, but I thought that the hon. Member meant further representations.

    Anglo-Danish Negotiations (Resumption)
    Mr. Gammansasked the Minister of Food what is holding up the food negotiations with Denmark; and when he expects to resume them.
    Mr. Strachey: Negotiations will be resumed shortly after Christmas. In the meantime both we and the Danes have been re-examining our respective points of view in the light of informal contacts which have been maintained.
    Mr. Gammans: When these negotiations are resumed, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is better that we should take this Danish food, even at higher prices, and put it on points, rather than lose it altogether, considering that we have a favourable balance of trade with Denmark?
    Mr. Strachey: The hon. Gentleman is wrong in thinking that whether it is put on points or not has anything to do with the matter. If the food can be obtained, it can be easily distributed.
    Mr. Gammans: Surely the food can be obtained; but the right hon. Gentleman will not pay the price for it.

    Imported Fruit, Bristol (Grading)
    Mr. Orr-Ewingasked the Minister of Food why the Bristol Port Authority do not mark cases of imported fruit according to grade or type; and, as this failure to mark results in retailers sometimes having to pay high grade prices for low grade fruits with consequent loss and confusion, whether he will take steps to improve the position.
    Mr. Strachey: With the present shortage of labour and the necessity for turning ships round in the shortest possible time it would be impracticable to adopt
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    the hon. Member's suggestion which would entail opening and inspecting every case. I am satisfied that the present arrangements are the fairest which can be devised in present circumstances.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Is the Minister aware that as a result of this practice retail traders are being involved in considerable losses, and cannot some system be arranged by means of which they know exactly what they are buying?
    Mr. Strachey: It is impossible to have every case opened at the port.

    Oranges
    Mr. Orr-Ewingasked the Minister of Food why fruit traders in the Weston-super-Mare District of Somerset are only just receiving allocation No. 10 of oranges, whereas other parts of the country have already received allocation No. 12.
    Mr. Strachey: As the northern and industrial areas of the country do not get their full share of home-grown fruit, I am continuing the policy of giving them an occasional extra allocation of oranges to make up. The Weston-super-Mare district is receiving allocations on a par with all other areas in the south.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Can we have the information, if I put a Question down, concerning the areas which are ahead of others, because it does not seem to me that those areas behind in the allocation are always those which have the advantage of distribution?
    Mr. Strachey: Certainly, but the information has already been given and is available in HANSARD.

    Seed Potatoes (Frost Protection)
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Minister of Food what complaints he has had recently of the damage through frost to Scotch seed potatoes in transit to England; what representations he has made to prevent undue exposure at the docks and to ensure the use of solid bottomed railway trucks and a bottom layer of straw; what is the estimated annual loss of potatoes due to such conditions; and whether, in view of the extreme shortage of potatoes, losses will be reduced to the minimum this year.
    Mr. Strachey: I have had very few complaints; my Department has impressed on the railway and shipping companies and

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    port authorities the need for full protection of seed potatoes during transit, including precautions of the kinds suggested by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Sharp: Could my right hon. Friend say when that impression was made?
    Mr. Strachey: I am continually impressing upon shipping and railway companies the need for care in this traffic, but the overall loss is only running at one half per cent. at the moment.

    Mobile Meals Services (Licences)
    Mr. John E. Haireasked the Minister of Food if he will make facilities to enable British Restaurants to organise mobile meals services.
    Mr. Strachey: I am willing to consider requests from Civic Restaurants or any one else for licences to operate mobile meals services where a genuine need can be shown.
    Mr. Haire: Would my right hon. Friend encourage local authorities to make these applications by drawing their attention to those successful schemes which are in operation at the moment?
    Mr. Strachey: I hope my hon. Friend's Question will serve that purpose.

    Exports
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food what imports he received in return for the 9,500 tons of chocolate exported between 1st January and 31st October, 1947; and how many dollars did this export earn.
    Mr. Strachey: All the money received for our exports of chocolate, as of our other exports, is used to pay for our imports of essential food and raw materials, and for other indispensable overseas payments. The number of dollars earned was 83,000.
    Sir W. Smithers: Does the Minister realise that this continual juggling and speculating with the nation's food is one of the main causes of shortage here? Can he answer that one?
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Food whether he can make a statement in regard to his policy in regard to the export of sweets and how much sugar has been allocated for this purpose.
    Mr. Strachey: As to the policy concerning the export of foodstuffs, including sweets, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply on 14th July to the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Joynson-Hicks). Approximately 10,000 tons of sugar, out of a total consumption of approximately 1½ million tons has been earmarked for sweets, chocolate and sugar confectionery for export in 1948.
    Commander Maitland: Could the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of these exports are going to dollar countries and what proportion to sterling countries?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir, we cannot say in advance, but we strive to make the highest proportions go to dollar countries.
    Mr. Manningham-Bullerasked the Minister of Food why 2 cwt. of biscuits, 49 cwt. of chocolates, 3 tons of chocolate couverture, 128 cwt. of confectionery, 2,608 gallons of cordials, 5 cwt. of pea flour, 39 cwt. of canned and 156 cwt. of smoked fish, 1 cwt. of hops, 23 cwt. of jams and marmalade, 99 cwt. of pickles and sauces, 85 cwt. of tinned soup, and 14 cwt. of canned vegetables, imported into Kenya and Uganda in October, were exported from Britain.
    Mr. Strachey: We have always exported limited quantities of processed foodstuffs to the Colonies. The Colonial Governments were requested in September to restrict imports from the United Kingdom to those judged essential.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Is it not the case that sweets, jam and vegetables are produced in ample quantities in Kenya and Uganda for their own use? Is there any rationing of the articles mentioned in this Question in those Colonies, and is it not desirable that they should be retained in this country?
    Mr. Strachey: We are striving to reduce this type of exports to the least possible amount, but I do not think we could ever get them down to nothing. We have urged upon the Colonial Governments to keep them on the lowest possible level.
    Mr. Bartlett: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in these Colonies, and in Singapore and Hong Kong, he will find enormous quantities of products of this

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    country, far greater than the Colonies need, and will he make a further effort to see that these quantities are reduced?
    Mr. Strachey: If the hon. Member will notice the quantities stated in the Question they cannot be called enormous quantities.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he exercises any control over quantities of foodstuffs leaving this country?
    Mr. Strachey: We do issue licences for these exports when the Colonial Governments assure us that they are necessary.
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food the quantities of biscuits and chocolate, respectively, exported to the United States, Belgium, Switzerland and Egypt, as from 1st January, 1947, to 30th November, 1947.
    Mr. Strachey: I regret that this information is not yet available for the month of November. With permission I will circulate details down to the end of October in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. De la Bère: In view of the fact that these foodstuffs are urgently required at home, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether it is his ambition to perpetuate confusion and chaos? Is it not utterly useless to send abroad foodstuffs which are required at home, while every time one asks for figures one is told that the figures are unavailable?
    Mr. Strachey: The figures are fully available. They will be found in HANSARD.
    Mr. De la Bère: I am not satisfied.
    Mr. Tolly: Can my right hon. Friend say why these commodities are sent abroad when we need them so badly at home?
    Mr. Strachey: I have already explained that matter before, and I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the explanation. It is because we get very much more dollars for the food we export and with those dollars are able to buy larger quantities of food that we need in this country.
    Mr. J. S. C. Reid: Are we getting dollars for food which goes to Belgium or Egypt?
    Mr. Strachey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has not seen the nature of my reply, and what quantities go to those countries. Moreover, those are the countries mentioned in the question.
    Mr. De la Bère: It is all very unsatisfactory.
    Following is the information:
    The following quantities of biscuits and chocolate (namely, miscellaneous preparations including chocolate confectionery and moulded chocolate) were exported during the period 1st January to 31st October, 1947.

    ——

    Biscuits

    Chocolate and Chocolate Confectionery

    tons.

    cwt.

    United States

    …

    76

    1

    Belgium

    …

    56

    1,345

    Switzerland

    …

    5

    220

    Egypt

    …

    38

    7,076

    Subsidies (Cost)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Food if he will state the estimated total cost 1947–48 of subsidies on animal feedingstuffs, welfare foods, milk in schools and national milk schemes, respectively.
    Mr. Strachey: It is now estimated that these subsidies for the year to 31st March, 1948, will cost: £32.2 million for animal feedingstuffs; £3.5 million for welfare foods; £29.6 million for national milk and milk in schools schemes.

    Fried Fish Shop Licence, Easington
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaiteasked the Minister of Food, on what grounds he has refused a licence for the establishment of a fried fish shop in the village of Easington, East Yorkshire.
    Mr. Strachey: I am sorry to say that owing to the shortage of fats I am unable to grant licences for new fried fish shops in very many areas where they would no doubt be welcome.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: In view of the fact that the Minister's right hon. Friend the Minister of Works issued the licence for the erection of this establishment, that the application to his Department has the backing of the Easington parish council, and that the nearest

    1449
    fried fish shop is seven miles away in the town of Withernsea, will he look into the matter again?
    Mr. Strachey: We are pressed on very many of these cases, and this applicant was very carefully warned not to commit himself financially. I am afraid that it is very difficult to reconsider it.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: When the Minister of Works issued a licence for this erection was that a warning not to proceed?.
    Mr. Strachey: When he applied for a licence to my Department he was most clearly warned.

    Imports, Port of London (Quality)
    Mr. Toucheasked the Minister of Food whether his attention has been called to the latest report of the Medical Officer for the Port of London which calls attention to the marked deterioration in the quality of certain types of foodstuffs entering the port, particularly meat and meat products; and whether he can make any statement on the subject.
    Mr. Strachey: I have seen the report to which the hon. Member refers, and I think the reference to the quality of imported food is capable of misinterpretation. Arrangements have been made in collaboration with port health authorities for the food which is imported to be inspected and while it may not be possible to maintain prewar standards of quality at all times I can assure the hon. Member that the most stringent measures are taken to ensure that no food which is unfit for human consumption is distributed.

    Potatoes
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Food if the bigger acreage of potatoes which farmers are being asked to grow in 1948 takes into account an increased demand for potatoes as other foods become scarcer.
    Mr. Strachey: We wish to see the very maximum possible acreage of potatoes grown in 1948. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture has already given farmers as additional inducements an acreage payment of £12 an acre for the first 10 acres, instead of £8 and a substantial increase in prices.
    Mr. Hurd: Could the Minister say to what extent we are expecting to eat more potatoes next winter?
    Mr. Strachey: That depends on the general food supplies, the acreage which is planted and the yield from that acreage.
    Mr. Hurd: What is the intention?
    Mr. Strachey: The intention is the maximum, as I have already stated.

    Imported Poultry (Fowl Pest)
    Sir John Barlowasked the Minister of Food in view of the spread of fowl pest what precautions he is taking to prevent further infection; and whether he will limit the import of poultry from countries where this disease is known to exist.
    Mr. Strachey: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture on 1st December. In view of the need to secure all possible supplies of food, I do not propose to place any unnecessary restrictions on the import of poultry from Europe.

    Australian Wheat (Imports)
    Mr. Platts-Millsasked the Minister of Food, in view of the fact that in 1938 imports amounted to 1,549,761 tons, why there have been no wheat imports from Australia during the years 1946 and 1947
    Mr. Strachey: Less wheat and flour was available for export from Australia in 1946 and 1947 than in 1938. Moreover, in the two later years Australia has exported most of her surplus in the form of flour to rice-eating territories, mainly British, which are short of rice. I am glad to say, however, that the first ships carrying wheat from the bountiful 1947 Australian harvest are already on their way to this country.

    Imported Eggs (Breakages)
    Mr. E. P. Smithasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that there is a large percentage of breakages in shipments of imported eggs during unloading; to what extent this is due to piece rates being in force which encourage carelessness and hurry; what is done with the eggs so broken; and what steps he proposes to take to avoid such wastage in future.
    Mr. Strachey: The percentage of imported eggs broken during unloading has been only fractionally higher in 1947 than in 1946 when it was some 2 per cent. The question of breakages of imported eggs is under continuous review, through the Ministry's officers at the ports, and I hope that this will lead to improvement in future.
    Mr. Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the bulk of the damage occurs on this side, and will he do what he can to obviate it in view of the waste of money and of food involved?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir. It is very important to keep the percentage as low as possible.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: Will my right hon. Friend answer the part of the Question which asks: what is done with the eggs so broken?
    Mr. Strachey: We can in some cases salvage them for use in processing.
    Mr. Keeling: Could the right hon. Gentleman say what is the difference between "higher" and "fractionally higher"?
    Mr. Strachey: I should imagine that "higher" means higher by a whole number and "fractionally higher," higher by a fractional number.
    Mr. Mellish: Can the Minister state that the dock workers are making a 100 per cent. safety effort in the discharge of food cargoes?
    Mr. Strachey: Certainly. Nothing I have said must be understood to reflect on them.

    Canned Food (Containers)
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Minister of Food whether, in the interests of small households with relatively few points, he will arrange for certain types of tinned food, and especially fruits, to be put up in smaller containers.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Food if smaller tins of pointed foodstuffs can be provided to meet the needs of persons living alone, and of small families.
    Mr. Strachey: When the Ministry imports canned foods we try to get the sizes which consumers prefer, although if
    1452
    the goods are already packed we cannot always choose. Home canners cannot produce more small tins because of the shortage of tin plate.
    Mr. Lipson: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that it is very unfair to people who are living alone, or to two people together, that there should only be the large tins available? Cannot he make a further effort to meet the needs of such people?
    Mr. Strachey: We fully realise that the small tins are of very great importance, but we cannot limit the total quantity of food imported to them. We would rather have the food in large tins than not at all.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Would my right hon. Friend look especially into the case of sweetened and unsweetened canned milk, about which there is considerable difficulty, as there is also in regard to syrup?
    Mr. Strachey: Certainly.

    Miners' Canteens (Ration Scale)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Food if full rations are provided in the canteens for the miners and when a six or seven day week is worked in North Staffs are full rations provided for every day worked.
    Mr. Strachey: Miners' canteens draw rations on the industrial "A" scale on the basis of the number and type of meals served, and this applies whenever the canteen is open, even if this is seven days a week.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that at one of the pits the output target was 6,000 tons, while the men's output was 9,500 tons, and yet on several mornings their canteen had no milk or sugar and one morning the men had no breakfast? Is he aware also that the men were only allowed rations for five days although they did a six-day or seven-day week? In view of the great efforts that these miners are making, will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking to make an immediate investigation into this matter to ascertain who was responsible and to prevent a repetition?
    Mr. Strachey: Certainly, Sir. If my hon. Friend will give me the name of the canteen in question I will do so. There must have been some error in the allocation.
    Mrs. Manning: Will my right hon. Friend also undertake to discuss with the Minister of Mines the possibility of having welfare workers in the canteens? There is considerable dissatisfaction among miners at the way in which the canteens are run.
    Mr. Strachey: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend. We are not responsible for the running of the canteens.

  ECONOMIC PLANNING (STAFFS)
  Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of recent changes in the sphere of economic planning, he will publish in convenient form a summary of the present arrangements, setting out the chain of responsibility and relationship between the various ministries and planning staffs concerned.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I hope to make a statement on this subject at an early date after the Christmas Recess.

  AGRICULTURE

    National Institute of Agricultural Engineering
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Agriculture what research work as distinct from development and testing work is being carried out by the National Institute of Agricultural Engineering.
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): As the answer is rather detailed, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Erroll: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will keep this matter under review?
    Mr. Williams: Most certainly.
    Following is the answer:
    Owing to the urgent need for increasing the output both of machines and of men on the farms, the research work of the National Institute of Agricultural Engineering has so far concentrated
    1454
    mainly on subjects which are of immediate practical value. These include: Pneumatic tyre design and wheel efficiency; pneumatic conveying of materials; separation of stones from potatoes, and other potato harvesting problems; conditioning of grain in storage bins; mechanism for depositing seeds at spaced intervals; mechanism to provide an evenly controlled flow of fertiliser. In addition, the farm mechanisation inquiry collects accurate information about the usefulness and convenience of, or the technique of using newly developed machinery in ordinary farming.
    Mr. Errollasked the Minister of Agriculture to what body the National Institute of Agricultural Engineering at present reports; whether any change of responsible body is contemplated; and when the engineering representation on the appointed responsible body will be strengthened.
    Mr. T. Williams: The National Institute reports to the Agricultural Machinery Development Board. The present board's term of office is due to expire in January, 1948, and future arrangements are at present under active consideration.
    Mr. Erroll: Will the right hon. Gentleman say when these arrangements will be settled, in view of the early termination of these reports?
    Mr. Williams: Early in the New Year.

    Aerodromes, Norfolk
    Mr. Goochasked the Minister of Agriculture the total acreage occupied by aerodromes in Norfolk and the total acreage which is now being cultivated by farmers or the War Agricultural Executive Committee.
    Mr. T. Williams: The total area of land comprised in airfields in Norfolk is approximately 21,000 acres, of which 8,000 acres is covered with buildings and concrete runways. The area being farmed is about 9,300 acres.
    Mr. Gooch: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that all land not publicly required is being put to the full agricultural use?
    Mr. Williams: I believe that that is the case.

    Women's Land Army Hostels, Norfolk
    Mr. Goochasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the Norfolk War Agricultural Executive Committee have been requested to erect six new hostels to accommodate members of the Women's Land Army; and will he ensure that the building of houses for permanent farm workers takes precedence over this project.
    Mr. T. Williams: No request has been made to the Norfolk W.A.E.C. to erect six new hostels for the W.L.A. Ways and means of providing accommodation for additional W.L.A. workers are under examination, and, before any decision is taken about new building, the effect on the provision of houses for farmworkers will certainly be taken into account.
    Mr. Gooch: Is the Minister aware that some Norfolk rural district councils have been told to curtail their building programmes in the villages? Much as the work of the Women's Land Army is appreciated, they will be leaving the land later, whereas the permanent workers will stay if they ever get decent housing accommodation.
    Mr. Williams: I cannot believe that any rural district council has had its housing programme curtailed for the sake of the Women's Land Army.

    Unemployed Workers, Norfolk
    Mr. Goochasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that nearly 500 farm workers are registered as unemployed in Norfolk; and that the number is increasing; that over 300 of the men have been taken into the employ of the War Agricultural Executive Committee; and will he take these facts into consideration before arranging for additional foreign workers to be sent into this county.
    Mr. T. Williams: The number of insured agricultural workers registered as unemployed in Norfolk on 10th November was 362, as compared with 243 on 13th October. Up to 6th December, the War Agricultural Executive Committee had engaged 335 men. With regard to the last part of the Question the total number of foreign workers, including prisoners, in the county is being very
    1456
    substantially reduced. The Committee will continue to do everything practicable to maintain employment, and I am anxious that farmers, in view of the needs of 1948, shall co-operate in retaining their regular workers over the winter.
    Mr. Gooch: Does my right hon. Friend realise that farm workers are out of work in many towns at present? Will he make an appeal to farmers generally not to encourage casualisation of labour but to give the farm worker the same measure of security as the Agriculture Act will give to the farmer?
    Mr. Williams: Yes, Sir. I made a very strong appeal on those lines at a farmers' meeting at Chelmsford last Friday.

    Potatoes (Acreage)
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture if he has now received assurances from all the county agricultural executive committees in England and Wales that the required acreages of potatoes will be grown in 1948.
    Lieutenant-Colonel Corbettasked the Minister of Agriculture what acreage of potatoes is forecast for next season; and which counties have failed to fulfil his proposed target.
    Mr. T. Williams: Some county committees are not yet satisfied that the required acreages of potatoes will be grown in 1948, but the joint propaganda drive by the committees and county branches of the National Farmers' Union is continuing and it is too early to assess the final results of this effort.
    Mr. Hurd: When does the Minister think he will be able to announce that the necessary acreage will be grown by voluntary means?
    Mr. Williams: Fairly shortly, but it must be understood that the campaign is continuing and that it is still three or four months before all the potatoes will be planted.
    Mr. Amory: Does not the Minister agree that this is really a manpower problem, and that farmers are reluctant to incur commitments upon potatoes because of the prospect of manpower shortage?
    Mr. Williams: There are several factors contributing to hesitancy in this matter. In some areas, potatoes are not a popular crop with farmers, whatever the price.
    Mr. Scollan: Could not my right hon. Friend induce the Secretary of State for War to turn soldiers who may at the present time be doing practically nothing on to potato cultivation upon land that the War Department has taken over?
    Mr. Williams: That is a question for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War.

    Potash Fertilisers
    Mr. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture if supplies of potash fertilisers will be sufficient to meet in full the needs of the 1948 potato crop; and whether more sulphate of potash will be available from Germany for market garden and fruit crops.
    Mr. T. Williams: Supplies of potash fertilisers in total for the 1947–48 season are expected to be sufficient for all agricultural needs. I hope that some small increase in the quantity of sulphate of potash will be included, but can give no undertaking on that point.
    Mr. Hurd: Do the supplies of potash for the current year show an increase over the past year?
    Mr. Williams: Yes, I think so.

    National Stud (Stock Sales)
    Sir J. Barlowasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the criticism concerning the disposal of "Blue Train" by the National Stud, he will say the terms on which this horse was sold; and state the general policy of the Stud with regard to sales of stock.
    Mr. T. Williams: The National Stud has at present one stallion, "Big Game," which is used for the service of high-class mares, but it is hoped to retain an additional stallion which might cater more for the needs of the smaller breeder. "Blue Train," over whose sale there has been some criticism, was not considered suitable for retention for this purpose. It was decided that the right course was to sell privately, as by this means prospective purchasers would be able to arrange for an adequate veterinary examination before making their offers. This would not have been possible at public auction. The highest offer, £25,000, was accepted. The general policy with regard to sales of stock from the National Stud is to sell by public
    1458
    auction such horses as are not required for retention; this policy will be continued.
    Sir J. Barlow: Was this horse offered for sale in this country prior to being offered abroad?
    Mr. Williams: The agents who were employed were invited to secure the highest price they could for it either at home or abroad.
    Lieut.-Colonel Corbett: Was this horse advertised in any paper in this country to give British breeders an opportunity to buy it?
    Mr. Williams: No, Sir, but the horse will, I understand, stand at stud in Ireland where it will be available for mares from this country.
    Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew: What veterinary examinations are made by private purchasers before purchasing a horse?
    Mr. Williams: I should imagine that any prospective purchaser would employ a proper "vet" for the purpose of making an examination.
    Sir C. MacAndrew: They could not do that at a public auction.

    Fowl Pest
    Sir J. Barlowasked the Minister of Agriculture how many cases of fowl pest there have been in each of the last six convenient months; and what precautions are being taken to combat this disease.
    Mr. T. Williams: The figures for the months June to November are 209, 112, 62, 145, 539 and 665 respectively. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of an Order I have made prohibiting in certain circumstances the sale, movement and gathering of live poultry in England and Wales. The importation of live poultry from countries in which the disease exists is prohibited, and the importation of dead poultry, from Europe is limited to eviscerated carcases. I am glad to be able to report some diminution in the spread of the disease since the beginning of this month. From 1st to 11th December 98 outbreaks were reported, compared with 276 for the corresponding period in November.
    Sir J. Barlow: Is the Minister aware that certain expert opinion is that this disease is transmitted to poultry in the marrow of bones so that the importation of drawn poultry does not entirely meet the case?
    Mr. Williams: We get all our advice from our experts and we act accordingly.
    Earl Winterton: Is the Minister aware that there is very serious perturbation among poultry experts including some of the most scientific, over this question and that they agree with my hon. Friend that the evidence on the subject is by no means conclusive? Will he publish a report of the advice of the scientific advisers on the subject?
    Mr. Williams: The noble Lord is aware that it is not usual to publish in the local Press advice given by chief veterinary officers of the Ministry.
    Mr. Tolley: Is the Minister satisfied that all possible steps are being taken?
    Mr. Williams: Yes, Sir.

    Grass Conservation
    Lieut.-Colonel Corbettasked the Minister of Agriculture when he will make known his plans for increased grass conservation.
    Mr. T. Williams: My plans will be announced very early in the New Year.

    Ploughshares
    Mr. Amoryasked the Minister of Agriculture by what date he expects that the supply of ploughshares will be adequate to needs.
    Mr. T. Williams: It is not possible to give a definite date, but production is steadily increasing and there is good reason to hope that supplies will be adequate soon.
    Mr. Amory: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the manufacturers of agricultural machinery will receive the highest priority in the allocation of castings and steel?
    Mr. Williams: They have been doing so for several months and will continue to do so.
    Mr. York: They are not getting the steel.
    Mr. De la Bère: There is no priority.
    Mr. D. Marshall: Is the Minister aware that in Luxulyan there is a very great shortage of tractor wheels? Will the Minister take action in this matter?
    Mr. Williams: That is a totally different question.

    Bank Credits (Interest Rates)
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Agriculture what facilities are available to farmers to borrow money for working and development purposes; and at what rates of interest.
    Mr. T. Williams: The banks are regarded as the normal source of farm credit in this country, and have ample funds available for the purpose. I understand that the rate of interest varies between 4 and 5 per cent., most small overdrafts being charged at the higher rate. These facilities are supplemented in suitable cases by the Ministry's agricultural goods and services scheme under which farmers may obtain credit for the supply of goods and certain services.
    Mr. Evans: Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate the conditions attaching to these loans?
    Mr. Williams: It the hon. Gentleman refers to conditions attaching to loans and mortgages advanced from banks, I am afraid I cannot say what they are.
    Mr. Evans: Have the farmers any greater advantage than they had before the announcement?
    Mr. Williams: The advantage, if any, is that we are continuing the goods and services scheme through county executive committees, which is very useful to many small farmers.
    Mr. Assheton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the real difficulty for farmers is paying back the money they borrowed because, owing to the high rate of taxation, when they do make a profit it is taken from them, and they therefore do not have the money to repay the loan?
    Mr. Williams: I do not readily accept that.

    Stanford Battle Training Area
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Agriculture why cultivation on land in the Stanford Battle Training Area was

    1461
    stopped for a while, in view of the urgent need to crop as much land as possible for 1948; and whether he is satisfied that a proper liaison exists between his Department, the War Office and the farmers concerned.
    Mr. T. Williams: I presume my hon. Friend is referring to the recent R.A.F. exercise in the Stanford Battle training area. I am glad to be able to assure him that, as a result of liaison between the local R.A.F. Station Commander and the County Agricultural Executive Committee, no stoppage of cultivation was occasioned by the exercise. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative.
    Mr. Dye: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there was not only a stoppage but that great inconvenience was caused to farmers who were preparing the land for potatoes?
    Mr. Williams: I understand that there was no stoppage.

    Drainage Schemes, Norfolk
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Agriculture what schemes of an important capital nature he has received from the North Norfolk Rivers Catchment Board, the East Norfolk Rivers Catchment Board and the River Great Ouse Catchment Board for the protection of agricultural land from flooding by the sea or rivers; and whether he will decide on any system of priority for the different schemes in giving financial assistance.
    Mr. T. Williams: I am sending to my hon. Friend, in reply to the first part of the Question, a list of schemes approved but not yet completed and of schemes at present under consideration. I am not clear what my hon. Friend has in mind in the second part of his Question, since the Boards themselves will to a large extent determine priorities in the light of their local knowledge, by deciding what schemes should be submitted to me for approval and the order in which they should be carried out. Whilst I necessarily have regard to the relative importance of schemes submitted to me for approval, any drainage project, however small, which will safeguard or increase food production is of the first importance to the country at the present time.
    Mr. Dye: Can my right hon. Friend say when these authorities will be able to get on with the work of protecting the land from both the sea and the rivers?
    Mr. Williams: That all depends upon the rate at which they send in schemes and at which approval is granted.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that so far as the Great Ouse scheme is concerned, he will not allow the labour at present concentrated in that area to disperse before the other scheme is approved?
    Mr. Williams: I am quite sure that the Catchment Board will not do that if they can prevent it.

    Dismissed Officials, Norfolk
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Agriculture how many officials of the Labour Department of the Norfolk War Agricultural Executive Committee, serving in West Norfolk, have recently been dismissed or suspended; and for what reasons.
    Mr. T. Williams: Three officers of the Committee have recently been suspended on account of irregularities in the use of prisoner-of-war labour. After a special inquiry two of them have been dismissed forthwith and one has been given a month's notice.
    Mr. Dye: Can my right hon. Friend say why the officer who laid the information showing the irregularities, was himself dismissed, in view of the fact that further allegations are made about the relationship between the officers and the farmers concerned?
    Mr. Williams: As a matter of fact the County Executive Committee set up a special tribunal to examine the whole of the evidence relating to this case, and it was only after they had carefully gone into all the facts, including those relating to the person referred to by my hon. Friend, that they finally recommended to the County Executive Committee that all three persons should be dismissed. As the chairman of the specially set up tribunal of three was a magistrate, I am satisfied that their recommendation was the right one.
    Mr. Dye: How can my right hon. Friend say that he is satisfied with the

    1463
    dismissal of a man against whom no charge was made and whose only action was to reveal to the Committee the irregularities that existed?
    Mr. Williams: This small tribunal consisted of two farmers and a labour representative of the Agriculture Executive Committee who was chairman of the Committee, and I am quite satisfied that after they had heard all the evidence, they reached the right decision.

    Production (Machinery)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the feeling of farmers throughout the country that in spite of being requested by the Government to increase production, the Government are not making available to the primary producers the machinery and other materials vitally necessary in order to effect this, he will make a further statement of his intentions on this matter for 1948.
    Mr. T. Williams: I think that the intentions of the Government to provide producers with the equipment needed for increased food production in this country are fully known and, as has been indicated on a number of occasions, substantial results are already apparent. As the plans made by suppliers with the help and encouragement of the Government mature, there should be a steady increase in supplies throughout 1948, enabling farmers' expenditure on machinery to increase from some £27–30 million in 1946, and £35–40 million in 1947 to £50 million in 1948.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a long waiting list for new tractors and new ploughs, that it is impossible to get piped water to lay on to the dairies, or even guttering for the farms? How can the Government, in view of this tragic farce, claim that they are giving the agriculturists the tools to get on with the job? I want to make the most vigorous protest.

    Lime, Cornwall
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the amount of lime subsidy which his Department has paid on shell lime taken from the coast of Cornwall in each of the past five years; and the tonnage involved.
    Mr. T. Williams: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) on 21st July, of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. D. Marshallasked the Minister of Agriculture to what extent he has consulted with the Cornwall Agricultural Executive Committee about the effect of the proposed Draft Rules and Orders, 107312 and 10713, 1947.
    Mr. T. Williams: Consultations took place between my technical officer who deals with lime matters in Cornwall and officers of the Cornwall Agricultural Executive Committee about the effect of these draft orders.
    Mr. Marshall: Did not the Minister's advisers inform him that the effect would be of great consequence to agricultural production in Cornwall? Was not that the advice?
    Mr. Williams: No, my representatives did not give any advice. Such advice was tendered by the representatives of the National Farmers' Union.
    Commander Agnew: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the view is widely held by the Cornish farmers that the restrictions contained in these draft Orders have been introduced by a Minister without due regard to the needs of agriculture, while his own Ministry has stood by idly without making a protest?
    Mr. Williams: The hon. and gallant Member is quite wrong, since a public inquiry was held by an inspector from the Ministry of Health, when one of my officers was present, and I am satisfied, as a result of the inquiry, that this is not likely to injure agricultural production.

BOUNDARY COMMISSION REPORT (PREMATURE PUBLICATION)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I wish with your permission, Mr. Speaker, to make a statement in connection with the publication of details of the Report of the Boundary Commission for England in the "Northern Echo," the "Yorkshire Observer," and the "Nottingham Journal" on Friday, 12th December, before copies of the Report were available to this House. The usual arrangements were made for the supply of advance copies of the Report to the Press in confidence for release at 4.30 p.m. last Friday. The London Editor of Westminster Press Provincial Newspapers Ltd. has sent me copies of the papers containing details of the Report. He has also written to you, Sir, a full and frank apology in which he says that for no explicable reason the embargo on publication before 4.30 p.m. was imperfectly read, that he has neither excuse nor explanation to offer other than that of gross carelessness, and that he apologises profoundly for the terrible blunder for which he is responsible.

DEATH OF EARL BALDWIN OF BEWDLEY, K.G.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
The House will have learned with great regret of the death of Lord Baldwin, and will, I am sure, desire to have the opportunity of paying tribute to one who served in this House for nearly 30 years and occupied three times the position of First Minister of the Crown. Lord Baldwin had been a member of another place for the last 10 years, and his active political life closed in 1937, yet many of us thought of him still as Stanley Baldwin, pre-eminently the House of Commons man. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is, indeed, difficult for many of us to realise that it is so long since he was with us, but this House so changed its composition during these years that fewer than 200 of our number sat in this House with him, and only three remember him as an unobtrusive, quiet, back bench Member. Yet such he was for more than eight years. It was only in 1917 that he took office as Financial Secretary and, after only two years as a Cabinet Minister, he was called to the position of Prime Minister.
Our Parliamentary history shows few examples of such a rapid rise from comparative obscurity to the leading position. It is hard to explain why, for so long, he neither sought nor gained prominence. It is not difficult to understand why, for nearly 15 years, he was, whether in Government or in Opposition, an outstanding political figure. First of all, he was a great lover of this House and a great believer in Parliamentary Government. Of all the Prime Ministers whom I have known, he was the most assiduous in his attendance. He spent long hours in the Chamber listening to our Debates; he was a familiar figure in the precincts of the House, in the Library, in the Dining Room and on the Terrace; he delighted to talk with Members of all parties; he steeped himself in the atmosphere of the House. It followed from this that he had a remarkable knowledge of the Members, not only of the party which he led for so many years, but of other parties as well.
I always felt myself, when he was speaking, that although he disagreed with us, he understood better than any man on

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the other side, the reasons and emotions that inspired our actions. In this understanding I think his earlier experience helped. On the one hand, his family connections with a circle that included William Morris, on the other, his work as one of the heads of a great industrial enterprise, gave him a broad outlook. To this understanding of men's views he added a gift of persuasive speech. He did not indulge in rhetoric, which he described as "the harlot of the arts." He seldom adopted a controversial tone. He always appeared to be putting his point of view in a disarming spirit of reasonableness, which is much more difficult to controvert than any amount of invective; yet in fact no one more shrewdly judged the temper of the House or selected with more skill the most effective line of argument for his purpose. It was, I think, this quiet manner of speech which made him such an effective speaker when broadcasting. He was, indeed, the first statesman to realise the particular technique required by this new means of approach to the electorate. But he could, on occasions, be both moving and eloquent. He was a great lover of the English language and he was deeply versed in our literature.
But political finesse and the gift of speech will not carry a man far without character and vision, and Lord Baldwin had both. He had a keen sense of duty to the country that he loved so well. He had a high sense of social obligation. We remember how, in the first world war, he set an example of public spirit by handing over to the State a large part of his private fortune. He was loyal to his friends and chivalrous to his political opponents. I remember the tribute that he paid to my colleagues for the fight they put up in this House when they were but a small minority. He had a vision of the Britain he wanted to see. He was, I think, nostalgic for the past; he looked back with regret to the past when relationships between employer and worker were more personal than is generally the case today. I recall him telling me once that when his men were on strike, he took care that the women and children should have food.
He was a lover of the English countryside. Here again I think he looked back with regret to the old England that was passing away. Although partly of Scottish
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descent, he appeared to be in many ways a typical Englishman alike in his virtues and his failings. I was for many years his political opponent, but I always regarded him not only with respect but with affection, and I enjoyed those friendly personal relations which we cherish in our political life. This is not the time nor the occasion to appraise his work. That is a matter for the historian. We are too close to those events to pass a fair judgment. A statesman must be judged, not only by what he accomplished, but what he strove to achieve. Account must be taken of the conditions in which he worked and the possibilities of the situation as it appeared to him at the time.
Lord Baldwin was Prime Minister when the aftermath of a great war brought many difficult and baffling problems to be solved, but that he sought earnestly for the right solution no one can doubt. His last years were saddened by the loss of his wife and by a growing infirmity of body. I last saw him when, with a characteristic sense of duty, he attended the unveiling of the Memorial to King George V, the King he had served for so long. I marked then how frail he seemed. To his eldest son, who was only last week our colleague in this House, and to all the other members of the family, we shall wish to express our sincere sympathy in their bereavement. I think it is fitting that, in accordance with precedent, we should adjourn today, as a mark of respect to the memory of the late Earl Baldwin, and should not transact any Business.
Mr. Eden: I think that the whole House will share the sense of grief and of individual personal loss which the Prime Minister has just expressed in such moving and appropriate terms. I agree with the Prime Minister that it is too early yet to attempt anything like a final judgment on Earl Baldwin's life work. It will probably be many years before any historian can hope to do this with anything like impartiality. So many facts have to be weighed; the legacy of the first world war, with its aftermath of unsettled issues and shaken values, the ground swell of international unrest—we feel it still—the limitations set to all human endeavour. These things a later generation will be able to judge in trues perspective than we can today.

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But there are some facts of which his contemporaries can speak. There was never any doubt in the mind of any one of us who knew him of the sincerity with which Stanley Baldwin pursued the ideals he set himself, the first of which can best be expressed in his own words:
"I want a truce of God in this country, that we may compose our differences, that we may join all our strengths together to see if we cannot pull the country into a better and happier condition."
Many here will remember that speech, and its occasion.
Today, we in this House speak of the man as we knew him. We speak of one who was to many of us a close personal friend. The Prime Minister has well said that Stanley Baldwin was essentially a House of Commons man. He liked to listen to debate. I remember one habit h had which those who were in the House when he led it will recall. In those days Wednesdays were given over to Private Members' Motions and the second Motion would begin about the time of the dinner hour. To introduce that Motion or to second it was an ordeal for any young Member. I was never sure whether the fact that the then Prime Minister was almost invariably present was an encouragement or a further ordeal, but present he almost always contrived to be. Some, I know, thought he spent too much time in this House, but he considered it a main part of his duty to know the men he led and the men he faced across the Floor of the House. It was perhaps this patience which gave him a power of discernment to appreciate qualities not only in those he led, but amongst his opponents also, as the Prime Minister has said just now.
If there was one issue above all others about which Stanley Baldwin cared deeply, it was understanding in industry. It was his life ambition to try to make a contribution in this sphere, and I think that he achieved it. Some here will recall the "Peace in our Time" speech of 1925; but there was another occasion which is still fresher in my mind and which, I am sure, the Prime Minister will remember, the last speech that Stanley Baldwin ever made in this House. It was on 5th May, 1937. Negotiations in the coalfields were not going well; there was tension which was reflected in a Debate in this House. Stanley Baldwin felt that this was a situation to which he could make his last
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contribution as a Member of this House, and he did so simply, sincerely and successfully. When I saw Lord Baldwin last, only a few weeks ago, it was of that speech he spoke to me. It was for speeches like these, and actions like these that he would, I am sure, wish to be remembered, and without doubt they played their part in promoting national unity for the ordeal which lay ahead.
Perhaps his sense of service cannot be better expressed than in his own words, which he spoke as long ago as 1923. He said this:
"It makes very little difference whether a man is driving a tramcar, or sweeping streets, or being Prime Minister, if he only brin to that service everything that is in him and performs it for the sake of mankind."
This same temper which those of us who knew him knew so well, was shown in the type of advice he used to give to his younger supporters. "Never, never," he would say, "presume upon any technical information you may have been fortunate enough to acquire. You may think you know all about Rhodesia, or Bulgaria, but you will find that others know, much more about unemployment insurance."
Stanley Baldwin was a patient and tolerant man of wide human sympathies. He knew his fellow countrymen and found friends among them in every walk of life. Anything in the nature of class consciousness or snobbery was anathema to him. He was incapable of vindictiveness or rancour and rarely showed resentment even at the harshest sayings of his critics. His strength as a Parliamentarian—and it was a formidable strength—lay rather in the reserve and reasonableness with which he would state his case. Stanley Baldwin's love of the classics was no pose, nor his admiration for what he called "the little parcel of novels by Mary Webb," nor is this surprising, for he was in all things essentially, characteristically English an Englishman who worked in industry and who loved the countryside.
In these later years he bore much physical suffering with no word of complaint, much criticism without a word of recrimination. Today, it is the prayer of all of us who are his friends, the prayer, I think, of this House of Commons that he loved so well, that he has found "the peace to which all hearts do strive."
Mr. Clement Davies: Both on behalf of my colleagues, and per-

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sonally on my own behalf, I desire to pay tribute to the memory of the late Lord Baldwin. Stanley Baldwin embodied many of the characteristic qualities of the people of this country. He had an intense love of his country and its traditions and its literature, but, above all, he admired its sanity, steadfastness, courage and leadership during all the upheavals and storms that have beset the world. His greatest attribute was tolerance. He hated quarrels and disputes and was ever concerned to bring about and foster a better understanding and good will between all peoples. So anxious was he for peace and good will, that his actions as mediator were often misunderstood during his lifetime, and may, indeed, be misunderstood when history comes to be written.
He was called upon to lead this country and bear the heavy burdens of the high office of Prime Minister on occasions of great difficulty, but he was guided throughout by his own sturdy common sense and his passionate devotion to his country. His supreme aim was to maintain the position of Britain in the Commonwealth of Nations—as mediator and friendly arbiter and, above all, as moral leader and guide. He was a master of English, and many of his speeches reached the high level which places good prose on the same lofty plane as good poetry. Many of his speeches are fresh in our memory. They made a deep impression upon this House at the time. They made, however, a more than immediate-impression. They were so lofty in ideal and couched in such fine and noble language, that already they have passed into the rich store of English classics.
He was the soul of honour; honest, generous and loyal. He was modest, he was shy, but, when once he had extended his friendship to anyone it was an abiding friendship which never faltered, and was always most warm when it was most needed. Those of us who were fortunate in possessing that friendship will always cherish it, and particularly shall we recall his kindliness and his encouragement to those of a younger generation than his own. In paying our tribute to Lord Baldwin we salute a great democrat, a true Englishman and a constant lover of peace and concord.
Mr. Maclay: With my colleagues of the Liberal National Party in this House I, too, would join in paying tribute to a great Englishman.
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Lord Baldwin's qualities have already been extolled, and we in our party subscribe with the utmost sincerity to everything that has been said. I would only add that to many of us who were not privileged to hear him but who have read his speeches, these will remain an inspiration. Their simple English and perfect clarity of form so often gave expression to some of the finest feelings of our country which, but for him, would have remained unspoken and only partly understood. In this as in so many other things, he leaves us a great legacy. Our sympathy, too, we would extend to all his family.
Earl Winterton: It used to be the custom for those who occupied my position as the senior Member in length of service in this House, always to speak on these solemn or ceremonial occasions. I have availed myself of the privilege—because it is a privilege and not a right—only on certain occasions. I feel I must do so now because I am one of the few Members of the House who was here when Stanley Baldwin entered it, remained during all the time he was in it, and was here when he left. Also, over the last 27 years there had been between us a lasting and abiding friendship, which was in no way affected by the many differences of opinion which I, in my humble position and he, in his great position, had on questions of politics. I therefore, stand today to mourn for a great friend.
I hope that the Prime Minister will not think me impertinent if I thank him and the other right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken for what they have said about Lord Baldwin. I think their words could not have been bettered. I entirely agree with the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend that it is far too early to assess Lord Baldwin's qualities as a statesman. Therefore, although perhaps it is inevitable, I personally regret that outside this House, and in some sections of the Press, so far from the locks of criticism having been closed by his death, they seem to have been opened full wide. I should have thought that it was not until many years have passed, and then only in a three-volume biography, that one could truly analyse and assess the lights and shades in Lord Baldwin's career. I would suggest, with respect—and I think that no one will think that this is a controversial state-

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ment—that, even so, whatever political views one may hold, one can only do so, in his case and that of every other great statesman who between the wars held office in this or other democratic countries, whether he was on the Right, on the Left or in the Centre, in the light of the storm-racked world which they had somehow to control.
I am visibly and forcibly reminded this afternoon, thinking of Lord Baldwin's career, of those words of another great statesman, one of the most honoured I ever saw in this House, the late Sir Edward Grey, who said, on 4th August, 1914, that the lights of Europe had gone out. He might have added that they would never be lit again in the lifetime of any person then alive, and that the lights of the world would go out soon afterwards. In an age in which there was neither tolerable nor tolerant relationship between countries—and there has been no such relationship since 1914—it is difficult to analyse and assess the position of any individual statesman in world affairs.
In all the eloquent tributes which have been paid to Lord Baldwin this afternoon, none is more true than what was said of him, with a slight alteration, which I venture to make, in the closing line of the leading article in "The Times" of today:
"There will be lasting gratitude for very much that he gave to public life."
Mr. Pickthorn: I hope that the House will not think superfluous one sentence from a representative of one of the universities of which Lord Baldwin was Chancellor. There were few places and few institutions dearer to Lord Baldwin's heart than Cambridge, and none where his qualities and services were more widely and gratefully appreciated.
Mr. Gallacher: Stanley Baldwin was the leader of the Conservative Party: I am a leader of the Communist Party. There was not what might be called much of a political bond between us, but I remember meeting him one night by the tape machine. He appeared to be in a sentimental mood. He commented on some of my Scottish characteristics. Then he told me that he had a Scottish mother and a Welsh father. I told him that I had a Scottish mother
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and an Irish father. That seemed to create, at least, a human bond between us. History will judge him and his life work. Some may praise, some may blame, but here today nothing should be said that could disturb his rest or the minds of those near and dear to him who are mourning his passing. In the quiet countryside beside his Scottish mother and his Welsh father, let him sleep in everlasting peace.
Mr. Tolley: I think it right that as a Worcestershire man I should make some small contribution. I was privileged to know the late Lord Baldwin long before he entered the House of Commons. I remember a time when he was in business at Wilden and Stour Vale, and he walked morning and evening to and from those works. All the employees were known to him by their Christian names and he was loved, admired and respected by all. At that time it was not thought that he would ever turn his mind to politics. It was a strange thing when suddenly we found Stanley Baldwin launching forth in the great fight in the Kidderminster Division, which he lost.
Then, when his father died, he was elected for the Bewdley Division, a constituency which he represented until he went to the House of Lords. Throughout all that time I knew him. I lived not very far away from the ancestral home of the Baldwins at Astley Hall. I have been privileged to visit him on many occasions. There I came into contact with this great human personality whose greatest love of all was love of the English countryside and of his beloved Worcestershire. I have listened to him as a politician and as a great human orator away from politics on a more lofty platform where the great ideals for which he came to be known best were expressed in words of admiration and praise. It was a privilege to be allowed to listen to him.
Worcestershire has lost a great personal friend. The country has lost a great personal ambassador. England is the poorer by his death; but may his name live long in our memory.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Three Minutes past Four o'Clock.

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