Sitting of 1 April 1947

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  WAR PENSIONS (SEVEN YEARS' LIMIT)
  Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Pensions when he proposes to introduce a new Royal Warrant to embody various suggestions that have been made to him, including the removal of the seven years' limit.
  The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Wilfred Paling): I have discussed and reached agreement with my Central Advisory Committee regarding the provision to be made for cases in which a claim is made in respect of the disablement of a member of the Forces, or in which the death of such a member takes place more than seven years after the end of his war service. The necessary amending instruments are in preparation. As a result of recent discussions with St. Dunstan's I have agreed that the attendance allowance paid in many cases of blindness shall be increased. Certain details remain to be settled. These increases can be made within my present powers and will operate from early April.
  Sir I. Fraser: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British Legion will welcome very warmly the seven years' concession for which they have worked for so many years, and may I thank him very much for what he has done for the blinded men?

  BRITISH ARMY

    Debts of Personnel
    Mr. Thomas Macphersonasked the Secretary of State for War if he is now prepared to make arrangements to supply the last known address of officers or men who have incurred debts with tradesmen during their military service in this country, so that traders can take legal proceedings for recovery of these debts.
    The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. John Freeman): In the absence of any legal obligation to furnish addresses for the purpose in question, my right hon. Friend sees no reason to depart from the long standing practice, which is to withhold the address, but offer to forward a letter. I understand this is also the general practice of large business organisations with employees both at home and abroad.

    Courts Martial System Inquiry
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir William Allenasked the Secretary of State for War if he will state the progress made by the Courts Martial Committee; and when the report by the committee may be expected.
    Mr. J. Freeman: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) on 25th February

    B.A.O.R. Families (Cost of Living)
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the cost of living for the families of married men serving in B.A.O.R.
    Mr. J. Freeman: The inquiries which have been made have not revealed any marked disparity in the cost of living for soldiers' families in Germany as compared with home stations. Families in Germany are provided by the Army with accommodation and food at reasonable charges, and arrangements have recently been made to introduce a special ration suitable to the needs of small children. It should not, therefore, be necessary for the families to, incur any appreciable expense in the purchase of food from other sources
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: May we assume that, although certain extra items of rations are to be issued, there is no necessity revealed by the inquiry for any increase in allowances?
    Mr. Freeman: Generally speaking, that is so, but it is partly another question.

    Meritorious Service Medal
    Commander Nobleasked the Secretary of State for War whether the conditions governing the award of the Meritorious Service Medal have now been revised so that the medal may he issued before the gratuity.
    Mr. J. Freeman: This question is being considered.
    Commander Noble: Could the Financial Secretary tell us whether such awards have already been made to men serving in the Tower of London?
    Mr. Freeman: Yes, Sir, that is so, under rather special circumstances, and would prefer not to make an answer on the general question until I have had a little time to consider it.

    Palestine (Leave)
    Mr. Championasked the Secretary of State for War if he will now make arrangements for those men whose leave from Palestine was stopped as far back as October of last year to have an early period of leave in this country.
    Mr. J. Freeman: My hon. Friend appears to be under a misapprehension. Leave to this country from Palestine was not stopped in October or since then, but has continued under the normal rules.
    Mr. Champion: Will the Financial Secretary then look into cases which I have of men complaining bitterly of their leave having been stopped in October last and that they have not yet had it?
    Mr. Freeman: Yes, Sir, I will certainly do so.

    Personal Cases
    Mr. McGovernasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the hon. Member for Shettleston wrote to him several months ago concerning the disappearance of Private John Parker, 16, Ardgey Street, Shettleston, Glasgow. who was serving in Austria; that Parker and some other soldiers accidentally went over the frontier, were arrested last September or October and taken to a Yugoslav prison where they were detained; that Parker has sent a letter to his parents informing them that he has been treated as a spy but has escaped from prison; and
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    if he will make a statement concerning this brutal treatment of these young soldiers.
    Mr. J. Freeman: My hon. Friend wrote about this case on 25th January and a reply giving all the information then known was sent to him on 12th February. Private Parker has now been released by the Yugoslav authorities, but the circumstances in which he was arrested and detained by them are still under investigation and my right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make a statement. He will arrange for the result of the inquiry to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT when available.
    Mr. McGovern: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this boy has not only been detained all that time, but has not been released by the Yugoslav authorities; that the boy has sent his mother and father a letter in which he states that he has escaped from the prison in Yugoslavia, that he is in hiding in the British Consulate there, and cannot either show himself or leave the country? Can the War Office take some energetic action to deal with these totalitarian gangsters?
    Mr. Freeman: My hon. Friend is entirely misinformed in his facts. Private Parker has been released by the Yugoslav authorities, he has returned to the British zone, he was then put under arrest when he returned to the British zone as an alleged deserter, he has now been released from that arrest and is an ordinary soldier in the British zone.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Does not the Financial Secretary recognise that it is part of the Communist Party technique to lock up people before trial?
    Mr. McGovern: May I ask why the father and mother have not been given this latest information?
    Mr. Freeman: I have the impression that they have been given it, but if that is not so, I apologise and will see that they are given it, but I think my hon. Friend will find that they have been given the information.
    Mr. McGovern: I have a letter from the father and mother, and they have been given no such information. They were given information that he had been released, but it was not true, for he escaped.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Can the hon. Gentleman say why this man was put under arrest as an alleged deserter?
    Mr. Freeman: Yes, Sir, the whole circumstances of this case are very obscure and when my right hon. Friend has the result of the inquiry, he will make it available to the House. It appeared, when Private Parker returned from Yugoslavia, that he was probably a deserter and he was put under arrest, but those charges have been dropped and he has now been released.
    Mr. McGovern: May I give notice, Mr. Speaker, that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment?
    Mr. McGovernasked the Secretary of State for War if he has now inquired into the allegation made by Private Delaney, Maryhill Barracks, Glasgow, that he was assualted by a sergeant who broke his arm with a stick; and what action he intends taking in this case.
    Mr. J. Freeman: This allegation is not substantiated by the full inquiries which have been made into the matter. Private Delaney broke his arm while falling from a barrack wall in an attempt to escape from arrest.
    Mr. Stephen: Will my hon. Friend say if he has had a report on similar cases which I have brought up?
    Mr. Freeman: That is another question.
    Mr. McGovern: Will my hon. Friend furnish me with the report so that I may put the information in the hands of those who make the allegations?
    Mr. Freeman: I have stated that my right hon. Friend has looked into this, and he is satisfied that the facts are as I have stated.
    Mr. Stephen: Is my hon. Friend aware that several others have made complaints about assaults in these barracks? Will he have a public inquiry into them?
    Mr. Freeman: No, Sir. It may be true that others have made complaints, but this specific case has been inquired into, and I am perfectly satisfied that the allegation is not true.
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for War when the hon. Member for Mile End can expect some information relating to the detention in barracks of Private Ferguson, Pioneer Corps,
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    M.E.L.F., whose detention, the reasons for which are unknown to his aged mother, is causing her great anxiety; and why he has not yet been able to provide such information though the inquiry was first made on 24th January.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Bellenger): The hon. Member will by now have received a letter giving the information for which he asks.
    Mr. Piratin: Is the Secretary of State aware that to my knowledge the parents have never yet received any statement about their son's detention, and that is in line with the question which was asked by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) that parents were very anxious about their son, and that for several months they had had no information about him?
    Mr. Bellenger: I am in considerable difficulty about this question of notifying parents that their sons are in detention. Frequently, the sons, for reasons best known to themselves, do not want their parents to know that they are in detention.
    Mr. W. R. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered the case of Corporal Dean. which was referred to him by the hon. Member for Heston and Isleworth on 13th February; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Beltenger: I am writing to my hon. Friend about this case.

    Ammunition, Clumber Park
    Mr. Sidney Shephardasked the Secretary of State for War what progress has been made with the removal of ammunition from Clumber Park, Nottinghamshire; and when it is anticipated he will be able to release the park to the National Trust.
    Mr. J. Freeman: As I explained in reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 22nd October, we have been trying to clear a part of this estate before the summer. Nearly half the ammunition from this area has been removed, and I hope that the rest will be cleared, and 500 acres of the estate released, within the next two months.

    Walking-Out Dress (Territorials)
    Mr. Vaneasked the Secretary of State for War whether Territorial

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    battalions of infantry regiments, which have always worn green walking-out dress, will be allowed to retain this privilege under the proposed regulations.
    Mr. J. Freeman: The general policy is that Territorial battalions will wear No. I dress of the same colour as that worn by the Regular battalions of their regiment. The application of this general policy to individual units of the Territorial Army is now being considered.
    Mr. Vane: Will the hon. Gentleman please bear in mind that there are a small number of Territorial battalions who, even since 1908, have retained their original rifle traditions and characteristics? Will he try to do his best to ensure that they may retain their uniform, which he as an old greenjacket I am sure will appreciate is a matter of great concern to them?
    Mr. Freeman: I will certainly bear that in mind.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will the hon. Gentleman see that similar privileges will be extended to those who have been forced into green, much against their will?

    Training Areas, Wales
    Mr. Emrys Robertsasked the Secretary of State for War (I) if the statements made by Lieutenant-General Sir Brian Horrocks, G.O.C., Western Command, to a Press conference at Chester, on 25th March, 1947, defending the policy of his Department in regard to the acquisition of training areas in Wales were made on his authority;
    (2) in what circumstances Lieutenant-General Sir Brian Horrocks, G.O.C., Western Command, gave particulars at a Press conference at Chester, on 25th March, 1947, of the training areas held by the Army in Wales, although these details have been withheld from Welsh Members of Parliament.
    Mr. Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for War why particulars of his Department's land requirements in Wales were given by the G.O.C., Western Command, to a Press conference in Chester on Monday, 24th March, which have been denied to Welsh Members; and whether he will see that information on land requirements is given first to the House of Commons.
    Mr. Bellenger: As explained by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday in answer to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr (Mr. S. 0. Davies), I authorised a statement by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in this case in view of the incorrect and greatly exaggerated reports which have appeared in the Press and have been circulating in Wales recently regarding acquisition of areas for training by the Army. These reports, as the hon. Members are aware, culminated in a meeting of protest on 22nd March, and I thought it very desirable that the obvious misconceptions current should be corrected and the matter placed in the right perspective. I should have welcomed an opportunity of placing the true facts before my Welsh colleagues before their meeting took place and they were in fact given substantially to my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins) by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and a senior military officer from the War Office, whom I had previously offered to send to the protest meeting if desired to explain the true position and the policy of my Department.
    Mr. Roberts: Does not the Minister think that it is highly undesirable that answers to complaints made by Welsh Members of Parliament should be given in a Press conference held by the Western Command? Is he further aware that if these reports are exaggerated, which is denied, it is due entirely to the bad management of his Department?
    Mr. Bellenger: No, Sir, the hon. Member is wrong. I am always only too willing, in my own interests and those of my Department, to give the facts. Unfortunately, the facts are considerably misrepresented in Wales, and I believe in defending myself as much as I possibly can.
    Mr. Watkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the statement issued by the Financial Secretary stated that it is impossible for the War Office to give details of the exact demands until they have examined the procedure which has been outlined, and that any statement issued beforehand might be misleading and inaccurate? Was the statement issued from the Press conference inaccurate, or not?
    Mr. Bellenger: The statements made at the Press conference are accurate, and

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    the same as have been given to my hon Friend. Although we have to wait for the whole presentation of the cases for England, Wales and Scotland until the Ministry of Town and Country Planning have examined them, I must in the meantime put a stop to the grossly exaggerated statements that the War Office are trying to confiscate Wales.
    Mr. Hopkin Morris: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why he has issued an instruction to officers and men to give these figures, although he says it was impossible to give the figures?
    Mr. Bellenger: Yes, Sir. I am afraid that in the first case—not at this Press conference—they were released without my authority. The figures having been released, obviously there was no reason to keep them secret.

    Brock Barracks, Reading
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Secretary of State for War how many officers, noncommissioned officers and other ranks are at present stationed in Brock Barracks, Reading; and how many baths are available for each of these groups.
    Mr. Bellenger: Eighteen officers, 36 warrant officers and sergeants, and 518 other ranks. Two baths and one shower are available for the officers, one bath and one shower for the warrant officers and sergeants, and three baths and 25 showers for the other ranks. A number of other showers are temporarily not in use in order to save fuel.
    Mr. Mikardo: Can my right hon. Friend say why there is this disparity in the provision of an essential service According to rank?
    An Hon. Member: Officers need more cleaning.
    Mr. Bellenger: I do not think there is much disparity. I hope Members of Parliament get more baths than officers and other ranks who are limited to the exigencies of the situation.
    Mr. Mikardo: How does my right hon. Friend say there is no disparity in view of the fact that there is one bath per six officers and one bath per 19 other ranks?
    Mr. Bellenger: Probably my hon. Friend has overlooked the fact that there are 25 showers also.

    Welfare Committees
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Secretary of State for War (I) if he will place in the Library of the House a copy of the Adjutant-General's order setting up welfare committees;
    (2) what are the constitution, terms of reference and procedure of the welfare committees to be set up by order of the Adjutant-General.
    Mr. H. D. Hughesasked the Secretary of State for War the composition of unit welfare committees recommended in the instructions he has issued to formation commanders; and by what means will their members be chosen.
    Mr. James Callaghanasked the Secretary of State for War the functions of the new welfare committees set up in Army units.
    Mr. William Wellsasked the Secretary of State for War whether the welfare committees, for whose formation he has issued instructions to the Army, are to he on a unit basis; whether they are to contain representatives of other ranks; and whether they are to be elected by ballot.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for War the nature of the instructions sent out to formation commanders on the subject of unit welfare committees; and if he will place a copy in the Library.
    Mr. Bellenger: No Army Order or Army Council Instruction has yet been issued on the subject of welfare committees. The instructions to Army formation commanders to which I referred in the course of the Debate on the Committee stage of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill on 26th March were conveyed in a personal letter from the Adjutant-General to commanders asking them to see that in all units under their command the idea of welfare committees is known and given a fair trial. Up to the present no terms of reference, method of composition or election of representatives of such committees have been laid down, as their development is still in an experimental stage. I am anxious, as I have said, not to infringe the responsibility of commanding officers in this field, and a further development of the system is desirable before any attempt is made to govern procedure by official instructions. The one letter on the subject which has been

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    written by the Adjutant-General is a personal one and is not the sort of document which would customarily he placed in the Library of this House.
    Mr. Mikardo: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the statement he has just made conflicts diametrically with what he said during the Debate on the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill when, after saying that these welfare committees were no good, he said that instructions had been given for them to be set up anyway? How does he reconcile these diametrically opposed views?
    Mr. Bellenger: Perhaps my hon. Friend's interpretation of "diametrical" is different from mine. I have read in HANSARD what I said, and I think I then told the House what I have said today, though not at such great length, namely, that the Adjutant-General had written to formation commanders.
    Mr. H. D. Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend recommend to unit commanders that they should study the experience of the Navy, and set up welfare committees on similar lines?
    Mr. Bellenger: Yes, Sir, I shall be only too glad to do so, and I shall myself pay particular attention to what the Navy are ultimately going to do.
    Mr. Callaghan: In view of the difficulties which have arisen, might I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is in favour or not in favour of welfare committees of this sort?
    Mr. Bellenger: No difficulty has arisen. I stand by what I said on the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill, that I want to place the responsibility fairly and squarely on commanding officers.
    Mr. Callaghan: My right hon. Friend has not answered my question.
    Mr. Swingler: Will my right hon. Friend tell us what is his idea about welfare committees, and what is his policy?
    Mr. Bellenger: No, Sir, not by question and answer. I think I said that I was in general sympathy with the spirit of the Amendment which was moved and withdrawn by my hon. Friend.

    Civilian Posts
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Secretary of State for War if he has yet engaged in
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    home commands the 10,000 temporary civilians agreed to by the Defence Committee as a means of releasing the soldiers now doing this work, for more appropriate duties.
    Mr. Bellenger: I am not aware of any such agreement. The question of employing civilians in any posts which do not require to be filled by soldiers is one which is always in mind.
    Mr. Callaghan: How can my right hon. Friend say that he is not aware of this instruction when, as I told him yesterday. I hold in my hand a copy of it?
    Mr. Bellenger: My hon. Friend has not been good enough to let me see what this copy is. If he will do so, I will immediately become aware of it.
    Mr. Callaghan: Might I ask this simple question: Is the Secretary of State proposing to make use of the agreement he has been given by the Defence Committee, or not?
    Mr. Bellenger: It would be very inappropriate for me to discuss in this House matters which are considered by the Defence Committee, but I have answered my hon. Friend's question, and have said that I am aware of no such agreement.
    Mr. Callaghan: The answer is wrong.
    Major Haughton: May I ask an equally simple question? Are there any civilians employed in this particular work?
    Mr. Bellenger: I should think so. It the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at the Estimates which are presented every year he will find that there is considerable provision for many civilians to be employed by the War Department.

    Gibraltar
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for War on how many occasions during the past 12 months he has authorised invitations to officers of the Spanish army to visit Gibraltar and to view the fortifications.
    Mr. Bellenger: No officers of the Spanish Army have been invited to view the fortifications at Gibraltar during the last 12 months. In accordance with a long established custom senior British officers at Gibraltar and senior Spanish officers at Algeciras have exchanged private visits on changes of appointment.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for War if he will take steps to reduce the size of the garrison in Gibraltar.
    Mr. Bellenger: No, Sir. The garrison has already been reduced to the minimum which is considered necessary for the Colony.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Secretary of State aware that it is alleged in a newspaper with which he was once associated that Gibraltar is so stuffed with troops that there is not enough room to train them? Does he categorically deny that allegation?
    Mr. Bellenger: I do not think that I should be held responsible for any statement, alleged or otherwise, that is made by a newspaper for which I once worked, but in answer to the second part of that supplementary question I stand by the answer I have given. The garrison has already been reduced to a minimum. If that conflicts with the statement in the newspaper I am sorry for the newspaper.

    Pay and Record Office, Edinburgh
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for War (1) the reason for dispersing Army Records, Edinburgh;
    (2) what arrangements he proposes to make to accommodate those wishing to accompany Army Pay and Records from Edinburgh to their new locations.
    Mr. Bellenger: This decision was taken in the interests of efficient administration and on financial grounds. While my Department cannot accept any responsibility for the provision of living accommodation for employees who move with an establishment it does what it can to help and for this purpose arrangements are made in such cases to send a reconnaissance party of employees well in advance of the move to make a list of accommodation available and for this list to be circulated to employees who wish to move with the establishment.
    Mr. Willis: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this decision has caused a great deal of concern in Edinburgh, and that it will seriously aggravate the already serious unemployment problem? Is he further aware that unless he takes some steps to provide, or to assist in the provision of, accommodation at other centres, the offer he makes for the staff to accompany the records is sheer humbug, in
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    view of the present shortage of accommodation? Will he consider the retention of the General Service Records Department in Edinburgh?
    Mr. Speaker: Supplementary questions are becoming speeches.
    Mr. Bellenger: I have every sympathy with my hon. Friend and his constituents, but I am being pressed to economise in manpower in the Army, and I cannot maintain what are mainly redundant records and pay offices.
    Mr. Willis: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that there is far more unemployment in Scotland than in England? Surely it is not economic to take work where there is no labour, from a place where the labour is available?
    Mr. Bellenger: I can assure the House that these moves of pay offices and record offices are to concentrate our manpower in the most economical fashion, and it will result eventually in a saving of manpower. I think that is what the House wants me to do.

    Release (Voluntary Deferment)
    Mr. William Rossasked the Secretary of State for War in view of the fact that general demobilisation is a continuing process, to what date his Department intends to retain officers and men who have voluntarily deferred their release until general demobilisation.
    Mr. Bellenger: It is intended to release all those who voluntarily deferred until general demobilisation during the latter half of 1948, so that no officer or man in this category is retained beyond 31st December of that year.

    Snow Clearance
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for War how many soldiers were employed in clearing away the snow and ice; and how many have been, and are being, employed in relation to the floods.
    Mr. Bellenger: Wherever possible the Army has by local arrangement given help in response to emergency calls for which civil labour could not immediately be provided. Figures are not, however, available centrally showing the total number of soldiers employed on this work at any one time.
    Mr. Piratin: Is the Minister aware that my reason for asking the Question was in order to focus attention on the need for preparing now to use our troops on the land, and that if they could be used, as they have been so valuably used in the course of the floods and ice, they should be used now for the land?
    Mr. Bellenger: The hon. Member has jumped hastily to a conclusion, and it is a wrong one. The Army have helped on every possible occasion, and will continue to do so, when they are asked, but I regret to say that it is interfering with the training of the Army.

  PRISONERS OF WAR (REPATRIATION)
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Secretary of State for War why the repatriation promises made to those Grade A prisoners of war who arrived in January from the Middle East to attend a course at Wilton Park have not been honoured; and why they are being held in Camp 23 under conditions unsuitable for this democratic type of prisoner, while Grade B men there are being sent back to Germany.
  Mr. Bellenger: These men completed their course on 21st February, and it was originally the intention to repatriate them on 29th March. As, however, the numbers ready for repatriation on that day exceeded the accommodation available their sailing had to be delayed and they will sail on 10th April. No. 23 Camp is a transit camp. It is not possible to provide separate transit camps for any particular type of prisoner of war.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the atmosphere at this camp is excessively militaristic, and. that the bulk of these men were in the anti-Hitler underground movement in Germany, and ought, therefore, to be sent back on a priority basis?
  Mr. Bellenger: I think that is an entirely different question. I am satisfied that the treatment of prisoners of war in this country, either at ordinary or transit camps, is far better than our men ever got in Germany.

  HOUSING PROGRAMME
  Mr. William Shepherdasked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for a
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  public inquiry into the housing programme, including methods of building and remuneration, with a view to seeking an improvement on the present rate of completion.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): No, Sir. It is difficult to see how such a wide question could be investigated by "a public inquiry."
  Mr. Shepherd: Is the House to understand from this reply that the Prime Minister intends to take no steps to allay the disquiet felt by people who are desperately in need of accommodation and who see no hope at all in present circumstances?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. All steps will be taken to allay disquiet. The point of my reply is that I do not think the hon. Member's suggestion is a very wise one.
  Sir W. Smithers: Will the Prime Minister reconsider this Question, which is very important? If he sets up an inquiry, will he appoint Lord Quibell as chairman?

  RATIONING, ISOLATED AREAS
  Mr. Vaneasked the Prime Minister whether he will ensure that, in future, all rationing schemes, whether covering food, fuel or feeding stuffs, will recognise the special position of isolated farms and villages and include provisions authorising them to lay in sufficient stocks, in accordance with the traditional practice in such districts, and in order to avoid the repetition of this year's hardships.
  The Prime Minister: So far as concerns food, local food officers have full discretionary powers to enable people living in isolated districts to lay in stocks by the use of coupons in advance. As regards fuel, the instructions of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power to local fuel overseers provide that they may allow summer stocking of solid fuel at isolated premises which are difficult of access in winter. The need to lay in special stocks of feeding-stuffs is normally confined to hill sheep farms, and provision is made for the ration of feedingstuffs for mountain ewes to be obtained in advance on application. Owing to the acute shortage of feeding-stuffs this year, the regular ration for

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  mountain ewes had to be replaced by issues from a discretionary reserve in the hands of the county agricultural executive committees.

  MINISTRIES OF FOOD AND AGRICULTURE (CO-ORDINATION)
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider setting up a Royal Commission for the purpose of considering making recommendations for the administration and co-ordination of the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Agriculture, since the present policies of the two Ministries are, in many respects, diametrically opposed.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The coordination of policy is a matter for His Majesty's Government, and in any case I cannot accept the implication of the last part of the Question.
  Mr. De la Bère: Is not the Prime Minister aware that the present policies of the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Agriculture are incompatible; is he not further aware that it always happens that the home producer gets the very worst of the deal because these two Ministries are diametrically opposed?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I have already pointed out that I do not accept the hon. Member's statement.
  Mr. De la Bère: I hope the Prime Minister will one day.

  LOTTERIES AND BETTING
  Mr. Austinasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the findings of the 1932 Report of the Royal Commission on Lotteries and Betting being completely inapplicable in the light of present-day circumstances, he will consider the appointing of a fresh commission to examine this aspect of our national life.
  The Prime Minister: The recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1932-33 relating to lotteries and course betting were dealt with by Parliament in the Betting and Lotteries Act, 1934. The Commission also considered the problem of off-the-course betting and, although since the date of their report there has been an increase in the volume of off-the-course betting, I know of no reason for
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  thinking that their recommendations on this subject are out-of-date or that there is any need for a further inquiry.
  Mr. Austin: Is it not a fact that in addition to the increase in volume, there has been a tremendous change in the scope and a tremendous increase in greyhound racing betting and football pool betting? Whatever the merits of gambling, for and against, cannot my right hon. Friend look into this question with a view to appointing a commission?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that the increase in volume has made any real difference to the problems involved which were dealt with by the Commission.

  INLAND WATERWAYS
  Mr. Harrisonasked the Prime Minister if he will consider the setting up of a Royal Commission to inquire into the condition of our inland waterways and drainage systems, with a view to making recommendations for the avoidance of extensive flooding and the greater utilisation of our rivers and canals for transport and to inquire into the present state of river pollution.
  The Prime Minister: Sub-committees of the Central Advisory Water Committee and of the Scottish Water Advisory Committee have already been set up to review the law relating to the prevention of the pollution of rivers and streams. Under the Transport Bill the principal canal and inland navigation undertakings will vest in the British Transport Commission whose duty it will be to use them to the best advantage. As to flooding, I am not satisfied at present as to the need for the action suggested but I will bear it in mind when the immediate urgency has passed and the reports from the different Departments which are keeping in close touch with the situation have been considered.
  Mr. Harrison: Would the Prime Minister accept the view that the present position in regard to the diversity of responsibility for this work is most unsatisfactory, and also that the financial responsibility for these matters is unsatisfactory?
  The Prime Minister: I am not prepared to accept that off hand, but I do not think that a Royal Commission is the best way to deal with it.
  Mr. Driberg: Could the Prime Minister say if we can take it that, when the Transport Bill is in effect, the canals and other waterways will be better kept up and used than in the past, and, in particular, that they will not be arbitrarily closed down as they have been in the interests of the railways' profits?
  Mr. Walkden: Will my right hon. Friend examine afresh the whole problem of catchment and drainage boards? In South Yorkshire alone, which is an industrial area, one township has been flooded six times in 15 years, and the people still have to pay rates and they are still in jeopardy today.
  The Prime Minister: The catchment board business is a very complicated question. I know that a great deal of progress has been made since my noble friend Lord Addison introduced his Bill, which was carried. Great improvement have been made, particularly with the River Don.
  Mr. Pickthorn: Has the right hon. Gentleman any doubts whether the catchment boards could have done their work effectively if there had been proper advice and guidance from the central Government?
  The Prime Minister: That seems to be a reflection on my predecessors here.

  CHIEF PLANNING OFFICER
  Mr. Piratinasked the Prime Minister whether, in order to prepare and carry out national economic planning along Socialist lines, in deciding who should fill the post of chief planning officer, consideration was given to those who had ability and also Socialist principles.
  The Prime Minister: Ability, experience of planning and willingness to carry out the policy laid down by His Majesty's Government were all taken into account. No investigation was made into the political principles of those whose qualifications were considered suitable.
  Mr. Piratin: Even though some hon. Members may not agree that the economic planning of the Government is meant to be based on Socialist principles, would it not have been advisable to find someone who had such principles?
  Sir W. Smithers: Is this not a case of the tail wagging the dog?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has not quite grasped the principle in this country by which the policy is laid down by the Government but the Civil Service very loyally carry out the decisions of the Government of the day.
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: Can the Prime Minister tell me how it was possible to find any applicant willing to carry out the policy of the Government in view of the fact that there does not appear to be one?
  The Prime Minister: As the principal staple talk of hon. Members opposite has been denunciation of the policy of the present Government, I do not see how the right hon. Gentleman finds that there is not one.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    C.W.S. Bank (Interest Rates)
    Wing-Commander Roland Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Co-operative Wholesale Society's Bank has yet responded to his request that it should reduce its interest rates and fall into line with the Government's cheap-money policy.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Dalton): I have nothing to add to what was said on this subject on 5th March by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
    Wing-Commander Robinson: Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer still unable to secure the loyalty of his political friends for his financial policy?
    Mr. Dalton: I am very much surprised at the hon. and gallant Gentleman trying to introduce politics into these banking questions.
    Sir William Darling: Is this the first occasion in which the right hon. Gentleman has failed in his cheap money policy?

    U.N.R.R.A. (Cost to U.K.)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total cost of U.N.R.R.A. to the British taxpayer.
    Mr. Dalton: £155 million.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer set up an inquiry to find out if the money given by British taxpayers was used for the purpose for which it was intended? Was it used for Communist propaganda, and how much of it was used for victualling illegal ships to Palestine?
    Mr. Dalton: I cannot imagine from where the hon. Gentleman has got these fantastic ideas. So fantastic are they that I do not propose to inquire into them.
    Sir W. Smithers: May I send the right hon. Gentleman some evidence?

    Sale of Securities (Treasury Consents)
    Major Bruceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of, and aggregate sum involved in, offers for sale to the public effected within the scope of Stock Exchange Regulations since 16th July, 1946; and if he will give particular totals of the numbers and sums involved in respect of those covering the capital goods industries, consumer goods industries and services, excluding the entertainment industry, and the entertainment industry, respectively.
    Mr. Dalton: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Major Bruce: Will my right hon. Friend say whether he is satisfied with the rate of private investment and also the direction in which it is going?
    Mr. Dalton: Broadly speaking, yes, Sir.
    Following are the figure:

    PUBLIC OFFERS FOR SALE OF EXISTING SECURITIES. TREASURY CONSENTS GIVEN FROM 16TH JULY, 1946 TO 27TH MARCH, 1947.

    —

    Number of Cases.

    Aggregate sum involved.

    £

    Capital goods industries

    6

    1,897,162

    Consumer goods industries and services (excluding entertainment industry)

    44

    16,454,488

    Entertainment industry

    3

    1,547,292

    Miscellaneous

    2

    853,125

    Total

    55

    £20,752,067

    Government Securities (Prices)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what effect the fall in old Consols from 99½ per cent in October, 1946, to under 94 per cent. today has had on the cheap money policy of the Government; and if he proposes to take steps to restore the level of British Government securities.
    Mr. Dalton: I hope to deal with the cheap money policy in some detail in my Budget statement. Meanwhile, the hon. Member will be glad to see that gilt-edged prices are again rising.
    Mr. Osborne: May I ask for a specific answer, whether prices are rising because of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done in the meantime?
    Mr. Dalton: The hon. Gentleman must not pry too deeply into these secrets.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer say how much of this rise is due to the action of His Majesty's Government in taking stock off the market?
    Mr. Dalton: That is the same Question as the one I declined to answer.
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the recent sharp fall in British Government securities, he will consult the London Stock Exchange Committee regarding the reimposition of minimum prices for all gilt-edged stocks so as to prevent temporary panic selling.
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir.

    Snow and Flood Damage (Relief)
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether State assistance will be forthcoming for farmers who suffered through the severe winter weather as well as those who are suffering from the present floods and are being helped through the Mansion House Fund.
    Mr. Turner-Samuelsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will be prepared to give permission to local authorities in the flood areas to debit the cost of providing food, clothing, bedding, etc., to flood victims out of the evacuation account in the same way as was done with evacuees from the danger zones during the war.
    Mr. Watkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make it a condition of the Treasury grant to the fund opened by the Lord Mayor of London, that hill farmers who have lost sheep and cattle through the recent snow and severe weather conditions may benefit.
    Mr. Dalton: I would ask the hon. Members to await the full statement which will be made on Thursday.
    Sir. I. Fraser: In preparing the scheme which will bring forth this statement, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer bear in mind that the National Farmers' Union feel that some 20 million damage has been done, and will he try to adopt the principle that this national disaster should be borne nationally?
    Mr. Dalton: I think it would be better for the full statement to be made on Thursday. We have very much in mind the need for speed and effective action.
    Major Guy Lloyd: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer say whether the statement will cover the situation in Scotland?
    Mr. Dalton: Undoubtedly.
    Mr. Erroll: Will the statement include any reference to the Salford floods which occurred last year, and will there be any relief for the persons affected?

    Cost of Living (Subsidies)
    Mr. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what major changes of policy with regard to food and clothing subsidies will result from the abandonment of the old cost-of-living index; and if he will give some guidance to workers arid employers representatives with regard to wage rate changes.
    Mr. Dalton: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour proposes to discuss the arrangements connected with the introduction of a new index with his Joint Consultative Committee representing both sides of industry. The question of future subsidy policy is a separate question which I hope to discuss in my Budget Statement.
    Mr. Osborne: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, when the change in the cost-of-living index takes place, he intends to reduce subsidies on food and clothing?
    Mr. Dalton: The second half of the last sentence of my reply gives the answer to that question.
    Mr. Osborne: It means nothing.

    Budget (Suggested Concessions)
    Mr. Garry Allighanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has now completed his inquiries into the allegations made by the hon. Member for Gravesend on 8th October, 1946, that certain football clubs were failing to pass over to the public the full benefit of the reduction in entertainment tax on cheap sections of stands; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Yorkasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider exempting from purchase tax all fuel-saving appliances which have been approved by Government Departments.
    Mr. Dalton: The hon. Members will not expect me to anticipate my Budget Statement.
    Mr. Allighan: While I do not expect the Chancellor to anticipate his next Budget speech, may I ask if he is aware that his last Budget speech contained concessions to the public which many football clubs are not passing on? What steps will he take to enforce this?
    Mr. Dalton: The defaulters are nearly all Scottish and they are being approached.
    Mr. Allighan: May I ask the Chancellor if he is not aware that that is a little slur on Scotland, as at least Luton and Charlton are also involved?

    Bank of England (Annual Report)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, now that the Bank of England has been nationalised, annual balance sheets will be published.
    Mr. Dalton: The first annual report of the Bank of England under its new constitution will be published in a few weeks.
    Mr. Stokes: But that does not necessarily mean that there will be a balance sheet. May I ask whether in addition to a report, which we all know is always bogus, there will also be a statement of figures which will constitute what is commonly known as a balance sheet?
    Mr. Dalton: I think perhaps my hon. Friend and I had better wait until we have read the report and then see whether in our view it contains what he wants.
    Mr. Lipson: In view of the fact that it is a specific Question on the Order Paper, will not the Chancellor of the Exchequer please answer whether it is the intention of the Bank of England to do this?
    Mr. Dalton: We have already heard from my hon. Friend that there is great doubt as to when a balance sheet is a balance sheet. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If my hon. Friend has no doubts, I have doubts myself. Therefore I suggest that it is better to wait for the production of this rather historic document—it is the first occasion when the Bank of England has issued a report with State authority behind it—and see what we think.
    Mr. Stokes: Since I shall not get a chance before Easter, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity after Easter.

    Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation
    Mr. Keelingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (I) whether he is aware that the recent issue of 159,993 preference shares in the National Gas and Oil Engine Company to the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation, although they could easily have been placed through ordinary finance channels, contravened the objects for which this Corporation was formed by the Government in 1945; and whether he will take steps to limit its future activities to providing accommodation for small businesses which have difficulty in raising finance in the market and so not superseding existing sources for the supply of capital;
    (2) whether the issue of 159,993 preference shares in the National Gas and Oil Engine Company to the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation at the price of 21s. 6d. was sanctioned by the Capital Issues Committee.
    Mr. Dalton: I see no reason to intervene. Treasury consent was given to this issue.
    Mr. Keeling: Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer not think that before com-
    1838
    mitting or conniving at this clear breach of the principle for which the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation was formed in 1945, he should have informed the House?
    Mr. Dalton: I do not think there is any breach at all. The position is that this was a concern which wished to manufacture Diesel and other engines. The amount involved was £172,000, required for working capital for this admirable purpose. It was supported by the Ministry of Supply and the Board of Trade. It was entirely above board and I am glad that they have got the money.
    Mr. Keeling: Was it not laid down in 1945 that the Corporation was only designed to assist small industries who had difficulty in raising finance in the market?
    Mr. Dalton: Even if that were so I reserve the right to change any arrangements that may then have been made. My concern is to see that money goes into useful and productive enterprises.

  MEMBERS' LATE TRANSPORT
  Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Foxasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the running of late night omnibuses for transport from the House of Commons after late sittings, he will consider discontinuing the use of Minister's motorcars, when the omnibuses are available, to enable the drivers to have reasonable hours.
  Mr. DaltonNo, Sir. This is a matter for the discretion of individual Ministers.
  Sir G. FoxIs it not in accordance with Socialist principles that all should have equal transport, and should not Ministers travel on these buses in order to hear what their back benchers think about their lack of policy?
  Mr. DaltonThat question is demagogic rather than a desire for information.

  ENEMY ASSETS (BRITISH BANKS)
  Mr. Garry Allighanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps have been taken to ascertain whether Hitler or Goering had deposited any part of their private fortunes in British banks.
  Mr. DaltonUnder the Trading with the Enemy Act, British banks must report all property in this country held by them for enemies.

  CIVIL SERVICE

    Executive Officers (Responsibility)
    Mr. De la Béreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the increasing practice of appointing numbers of public servants by the Government to carry out executive and directive work, he will impress on those accepting these appointments their inherent responsibility and make clear that those accepting appointments will be rendered personally liable.
    Mr. DaltonI regret that I find it difficult to understand exactly what the hon. Member means by this Question.
    Mr. De la BéreWould the Chancellor come along as soon as possible and have a friendly word with me afterwards?

    Communists
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the intelligence department of the War Office has ordered the dismissal of Communist civil servants, he will arrange for similar action to be put into operation in all public departments.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): The first part of the Question is based on a misapprehension. On the second I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith).
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the increasing Communist activities, and in view of the definite statements made in the Report of the Royal Commission in Canada as to activities in London, do the Government not realise that we have a deadly enemy in our midst?
    Mr. Beswickasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether instructions have been give by His Majesty's Government that members of the Communist Party should be discharged from any section of the Civil Service.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given yesterday to the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith), by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Iron and Steel Export
    Mr. Errollasked the President of the Board of Trade the export allocation for iron and steel to Canada during 1947; and how this compares with the allocation for 1946 and the total actually delivered in 1946.
    The Secretary for Overseas Trade (Mr. Harold Wilson): As regards the first part of the Question, the export quota for iron and steel is not allocated by countries. The second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. Erroll: Will the Minister therefore please give instructions to firms to increase their allocations to dollar-paying countries instead of sending their steel and iron to soft currency countries?
    Mr. Wilson: The question of allocation or sending supplies especially to Canada has been very much considered, but I am sure my hon. Friend will realise that on balance we shall probably be importing steel from Canada instead of exporting it, as we always did, apart from special types of finished steel.

    Gas Mantles
    Mr. De la Béreasked the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of the complaints by retailers throughout the country that they are still unable to meet the public demand for gas mantles, he will consider temporarily supplementing the United Kingdom production with supplies from abroad.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Belcher): Arrangements have already been made to import a quantity of mantles from Czechoslovakia and a few from Belgium. We are also getting some good supplies of ceramic rings for our own mantle manufacturers from various sources. Everything possible is being done to speed up deliveries, but the mantle makers in Czechoslovakia are also having their production difficulties.
    Mr. De la Bére: Will it be possible to assist the home manufacturers to increase output?
    Mr. Belcher: Yes, Sir. We are taking steps by importing ceramics from Germany and other places.

    Newsprint
    Mr. T. J. Brooksasked the President of the Board of Trade the average weekly consumption of newsprint by newspapers and periodicals for August, 1939, and June, July and August, 1940.
    Mr. Belcher: I regret that no separate figures are available for August, 1939, but the average weekly consumption of newsprint for the 12 months ended 31st August, 1939, for newspapers and periodicals respectively, was 21,000 tons and 1,750 tons. With my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate the remaining figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures:

    Weekly average consumption in.

    Newspapers.

    Periodicals.

    June, 1940

    …

    8,488

    666 tons

    July, 1940

    …

    6,987

    592 tons

    August, 1940

    …

    6,742

    555 tons

    Weekly Newspapers (Paper Cut)
    Lieut.-Colonel Dowerasked the President of the Board of Trade what cuts have been imposed on allocations of paper to weekly newspapers; and how long such cuts will remain in force.
    Mr. Belcher: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given on 27th March to my hon. Friends the Members for Rothwell (Mr. T. J. Brooks) and Taunton (Mr. Collins). As a result of the changes made, certain of the newspapers are restricted to the number of pages published during the period of the general electricity restrictions, although most newspapers revert to the number of pages they carried immediately prior to these restrictions. No increase can take place until the paper supply position improves.
    Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the general opinion is that in many districts—especially rural areas—weekly papers, upon which people largely depend for their news, are being severely curtailed, whereas daily papers
    1842
    —and I welcome it—have been able to increase their supply of newsprint?
    Mr. Belcher: As a matter of fact, a comparison between weekly and daily papers shows that weekly papers are receiving a higher proportion of their prewar consumption than the daily papers.
    Mr. Marlowe: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this new arrangement has inflicted great injustice on provincial newspapers, which have been put back, on a more or less permanent basis, into the position in which they were in during the crisis, and not into the position into which they were before the crisis?
    Mr. Belcher: I am only too anxious to assist people in the provinces, but with all the good will in the world I cannot do anything about it until the supply of newsprint increases.

    Coupon Floats (Non-Food Shops)
    Mrs. Willsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on coupon floats and building licences for people wishing to open non food shops.
    Mr. Belcher: After careful consideration we have decided that, in future, coupon floats to trade in rationed goods will be granted only to the war-disabled and to ex-traders. Applications for coupon floats should in future be made to the Board of Trade's regional controller, and not, as hitherto, to the local price regulation committee. As regards repairs to non-food shop premises, applications for licences should in future be made, not to the Board of Trade, but to the Ministry of Works or the local authority, according to whether the estimated cost of work exceeds or falls below £100. The issue of licences will depend upon whether this can be done without detriment to more urgent demands on the building materials and labour available in the area. I should make it clear that these arrangements apply only to nonfood shops. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Food asks me to say that for the present the existing arrangement for considering applications to open, adapt or repair food shops and catering establishments will continue to operate.
    Mrs. Wills: Will the needs of new areas be borne in mind in this matter?
    Mr. Belcher: In all these cases we take consumer needs into account. That will mean, of course, new areas.

    Milk Bottles
    Mr. Spenceasked the President of the Board of Trade the output of milk bottles for the years 1945 and 1946, respectively, and the estimated output for the year 1947.
    Mr. Belcher: Output of milk bottles during 1945 and 1946 was 157½ million and 183½ million, respectively. The target output for 1947 is 230 million, but despite the efforts of the bottle manufacturers, for which I am very grateful, the direct and indirect results of the fuel position make it unlikely that this target will be fully achieved.
    Mr. Spence: Will the hon. Gentleman bring to the attention of the Minister of Food the grave position which might arise because of the shortage of bottles? Will he try to prevent wastage?
    Mr. Usborne: Can my hon. Friend say how these figures compare with the figures for immediately before the war?
    Mr. Belcher: I should have to have notice of that question.
    Sir Frank Sanderson: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that the figures he has just given clearly demonstrate that if reasonable care were taken of bottles the number required would be considerably less, and production could be reduced rather than increased?
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Can the hon. Gentleman do something to stop the innocent, but expensive, juvenile sport of dropping bottles over the edges of areas?
    Mr. Peter Freeman: In order to obtain the extra containers and to prevent the danger of injury by broken bottles, will my hon. Friend consider the wider provision of cardboard cartons?
    Mr. Belcher: There is as great a shortage of cardboard as there is of glass.

    Flood Losses (Replacement)
    Mr. Butcherasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement as to the manner in which persons who have had furniture or clothing ruined as a result of the floods may speedily obtain dockets and clothing
    1844
    coupons which will enable them to replace their loss.
    Mr. Turner-Samuelsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make an allocation to local authorities of coupons for clothing and vouchers for bedding and furniture for distribution to victims of the floods, to replace their goods destroyed or lost in the floods.
    Mr. Belcher: People who have lost furniture, furnishings, or clothing in the floods are entitled to coupons, dockets and furniture permits on a prescribed scale. Forms of application for dockets and permits can be obtained from local information centres and citizens' advice bureaux, as well as from fuel offices. Applications for coupons are dealt with by the offices of collectors of Customs, and for dockets and permits by the Board of Trade Office at Southport. These applications are dealt with immediately, and my right hon. and learned Friend sees no occasion for altering the existing arrangements.
    Mr. Butcher: Will the hon. Gentleman indicate the desirability of local authorities opening offices in which applications could be completed and filed, so that they were dealt with in bulk, and individual applications to various offices thereby avoided?
    Mr. Belcher: If I thought that there would be great advantage in doing so, I would suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend that we should do it, but my information is that these applications are dealt with by special staff, and that within two or three days permits are given.
    Lieut.-Colonel Clifton-Brown: Will the hon. Gentleman see that there are goods in the shops to meet these dockets?
    Mr. Belcher: I have no reason to believe that there are not.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Does the prescribed scale mean that people will get back all they have lost, or will receive only a proportion of what they have lost?
    Mr. Belcher: That depends on how much they have lost. If they have lost a great deal I do not think that they would get as much as they lost, but if they have lost a small amount I think that they will get full recovery.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider this point about

    1845
    applications? Surely there should be some way of cutting down the number of forms to be filled in. I suggest that he should use the parish councils.
    Mr. Belcher: In the case of coupons, they are dealt with locally, by the collector of Customs and Excise. It is essential to have forms, otherwise there would be a possibility of fraud.

    Closed Factory, Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that Messrs. William Fiddes and Son, of Aberdeen, have, owing to absence of timber, had, last Friday week, to close their factory, thereby causing nearly 300 workers to be unemployed, he will now grant them a licence for sufficient timber to enable them to reopen their factory and re-engage their workers.
    Mr. Belcher: I naturally regret the effect, particularly on employment, of the closing of Messrs. Fiddes' factory, which, I hope, will only be temporary. They will be granted licences in the same way and on the same basis as other sawmillers and boxmakers, but in present circumstances the cutting up for boxmaking of German logs suitable for meeting other requirements, especially housing, could not be justified.
    Mr. Hughes: Is my hon. Friend aware that the small quantity of timber required for this purpose would make comparatively little difference to the housing programme? Is he aware that there are cargoes of timber being handled at Aberdeen, some of which could be used for this purpose in order to help reduce unemployment?
    Mr. Belcher: While it may be true that the quantity of timber which might be diverted in this case would make little difference to the housing programme, it would make a big difference if there were other firms who might like us to do the same thing.

    Elastic Braces
    Mr. Keelingasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, now that supplies of rubber are plentiful, the making and sale of elastic braces, etc., will be resumed.
    Mr. Belcher: Braces, with an insertion of elastic, have been on sale for several
    1846
    months past, but supplies of elastic web, which is also required for other uses, are not yet sufficient to permit the production of all-elastic braces.
    Mr. Keeling: Can the hon. Gentleman say what the stocks are?
    Mr. Belcher: Certainly, if the hon. Gentleman will give me notice.

    Bazaars (Clothing Coupons)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will allow articles made out of second-hand materials for sales of work held in aid of good causes to be sold coupon free, in view of the fact that coupons have already been given for the original articles and that to insist on coupons would seriously prejudice the financial success of efforts made on behalf of many deserving causes.
    Mr. Quintin Hoggasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will review his recent ruling that articles sold at sales of work and made from odd materials in the possession of voluntary workers should require the surrender of full coupon value.
    Mr. Collinsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the regulation which obliges anyone conducting a bazaar or sale of work to take the appropriate number of coupons when rationed goods are supplied is not being observed; and if he will take steps to cancel a rule which is inoperable.
    Mr. Belcher: We have been impressed by the numerous representations which have been made, and are reconsidering the whole matter.

    Granite Production
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Granite Supply Association, Limited, of Aberdeen, has been forced to curtail its production and employment owing to scarcity of rough granite blocks of which they formerly imported 20,000 tons to supplement home supplies; that much of this is required for building work; and if he will now grant the necessary import licences.
    Mr. Belcher: No, Sir. I am advised that adequate quantities of rough granite are available from home sources.
    Mr. Hughes: Can my hon. Friend say whether the granite can be obtained?
    Mr. Belcher: If my hon. and learned Friend will give me notice, I will endeavour to tell him.
    Mr. Charles Williams: Is the hon Gentleman aware that there is a far higher grade of granite to be obtained in Cornwall than in Aberdeen?

  YALTA AND POTSDAM AGREEMENTS (PERSONAL EXPLANATION)
  Mr. Eden: By your leave, Mr. Speaker, and with the leave of the House, I desire to make a brief personal explanation.
  On Monday last, the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), in a supplementary question about the Yalta Agreement, asked the Minister of State whether he was aware of the repeated assurances by the former Foreign Secretary that there were no secret agreements of any kind, and whether he could explain how His Majesty's Government came to make such a statement. The hon. Member added:
  "Now we find there are secret agreements of which some of us, in fact, had knowledge."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th March, 1947; Vol. 435, c. 834.]
  In view of the reference to myself, and of the documents now published by the Government, I have thought it right to look up the undertakings given. I find, as I thought, that no undertaking whatever was given by myself after the Yalta Conference to the House, that no secret agreement of any kind had been entered into. The last statement on this matter which I made was, as far as I have been able to discover, on 25th May, 1944, nearly a year before Yalta. As regards the Teheran documents, it is quite true that a military agreement has now been made public covering certain steps that it was agreed by the three heads of Governments should be taken in the military interest for the prosecution of the war. These, however, were purely military in character and involved no postwar political or economic commitments upon this country or her Allies. Thirdly, there is the question of reparations which is dealt with in the published Protocol of the Yalta proceedings. As is explained in the document itself, the heads of Governments there agreed to certain guiding principles, which were to be worked out as part of a detailed plan by
  1848
  the Allied Reparations Commission to be set up subsequently in Moscow.
  With particular reference to the question of labour in reparations, Lord Hall, then Mr. George Hall, and my colleague at the Foreign Office, made the position of His Majesty's Government quite clear in a statement on the Adjournment of the House on 11th April, 1945. After denying that there was any truth in the report that any country had asked that 2,000,000 Germans should be used as slaves for a period of 20 years, Lord Hall added:
  "It is impossible to promise that the use of German labour as a means of obtaining compensation from Germany for the damage she has caused should be ruled out…. I know of no difference of opinion among the people of the country, as has been shown at many Labour Party and trade union conferences, and by the views of the people generally who are all strongly supporting the principle that Germany should be obliged to make compensation for the devastation she has caused, to the greatest possible extent and by what-eve' means appear most practicable. The methods by which this principle will be implemented have to be determined by the Reparations Commission and the decisions that will be arrived at by that Commission cannot be anticipated." —[OFFICIAL REPORT,11th April, 1945; Vol. 409, c. 1948–9.]
  I think that it is right that I should add that, in the subsequent discussion at Moscow, agreement was not reached on the subject of reparations, either in kind or in cash, and the question of labour assistance to help the Soviet Union to reconstruct her devastated territories was, in fact, not even discussed; nor was this issue discussed at Potsdam during the period for which my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and I were responsible. I understand that it was not discussed after our departure either.
  There is one final observation which I ought to make in fairness to an Ally. The Soviet Government never asked that the question of aid from German labour should be discussed at Yalta at all. Their concern was then with reparations in kind. If the subject figures, as it does, in the Protocol, it was upon the initiative of His Majesty's Government because, if I recollect aright, His Majesty's Government felt that, if reparations were to be worked out in detail in Moscow, all aspects of this question should be studied together. I should also add that this, and all other matters affecting reparations, were the decision of His Majesty's Government

  1849
  collectively, and not in any sense only that of the then Prime Minister and myself at Yalta alone. I feel sure that the present Prime Minister would endorse this.
  I apologise for troubling the House with this explanation. I have never taken up the time of the House in this way before, and I only do so on this occasion as it seems to me that something more than the personal reputation of an individual is at stake. I am, myself, convinced, after a careful rereading of the documents, that the House has not been in any way misled, but I think that the House is entitled to this explanation, and to the reasons which have led me to these conclusions.
  Mr. Stokes rose—
  Mr. Speaker: As the hon. Member knows, there is no Motion before the House. There can be no debate on this.
  Mr. Stokes: I am not attempting to debate it; but I think that in view of the personal statement which has been made in which I am involved, I am entitled to make some remarks.
  Mr. Speaker: No, not now. The hon. Member raised it himself, and the right hon. Gentleman has merely made a personal statement, which, if discussed, would lead to an irregular Debate. No doubt a time will come, for instance, in a Debate on the visit of the Foreign Secretary to Moscow, when this matter can be debated. The hon. Member has not given notice of his intention to make a personal statement, and I must rule it out of Order.
  Mr. Stokes: Am I not to be allowed to make a personal statement?
  Mr. Speaker: It would be quite out of Order, as it would lead to an irregular Debate.
  Mr. Stokes: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I express complete dissatisfaction.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask whether, in a voice that could be heard, although not in a speech, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) is entitled to say of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) that, "He spent his time during the war trying to do the country in"?
  Mr. Speaker: Those words did not reach me.

  MINISTER'S SPEECH (CORRECTION)
  Mr. H. D. Hughes: I wish to raise a question on the OFFICIAL REPORT of yesterday's Debate. It was my impression at the time, and it was reported in the Press, that the Minister of Labour, in referring to the question of a reduction of the period of 18 months' whole time service, used these words: "I have authority to say, that, at the earliest practicable moment, it will be done." The words, "at the earliest practicable moment," are omitted from Col. 1680 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, which conveys a quite different impression. I have consulted the Editor of the OFFICIAL REPORT, who agrees that the Minister used those words, and that they were inadvertently omitted by the reporter in reconstructing a slightly involved sentence. With the consent of the Minister, and as an important issue is involved, I am now raising this matter for the purpose of record and correction.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has now made perfectly clear how the Minister should have been reported. No doubt it will be correctly reported in the bound volume, and the Press will now have a note of it

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings in Committee on National Service [Money] and Proceedings on the Trafalgar Estates Bill exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [31st March], "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Which Amendment was to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add "upon this day six months."—[Mr. Rhys Davies.]
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  3.41 p.m.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: When the Debate was adjourned last night, I was venturing to call the attention of the House, and of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour in particular, to the question of whether the admirable provisions in this Bill with respect to deferment of service on educational and apprenticeship grounds could not be applied during the interim period before 1st January, 1949. I understood from the demeanour of the right hon. Gentleman that he was not wholly unsympathetic to that idea, and as it is of importance, I would invite the attention of hon. Members to the considerable distinction between the provisions of this Bill and existing enactments. The right hon. Gentleman, as reported in column 1684 of yesterday's OFFICIAL REPORT, said:
  "The option"—
  that is to say the option for deferment—
  "will be for any person. Any person going through any kind of tuition—university, industry, law, and so on, where there is a genuine contract of training of some sort—has a right to ask for the deferment of his call-up. It is made as wide as possible so as not to interfere with training."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1947; Vol 435, c. 1684.]
  As I understand the position—and the right hon. Gentleman, I am sure, will correct me if I am wrong—deferment is
  1852
  only granted at the moment on apprenticeship grounds, if the apprenticeship can be completely terminated within nine months; and deferment is only given on educational grounds where the university, college or similar institution asks for the student. The provisions of this Bill on this point seem very sound and very helpful, and I am sure it would be quite wrong that their coming into effect should be delayed until 1st January, 1949, and a much more unsatisfactory plan applied in the case of young men called up before 1st January, 1949. I see that the right hon. Gentleman has a document available and I hope he or the Minister of Defence may be able to give us a little encouragement on this point.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I had prepared a note and sent it to the hon. Gentleman. I am sorry it did not reach him before he took his place in the House. If I may read the statement, it covers the point which he has raised:
  "Students and apprentices may have their calling up deferred during 1947 and 1948 in the same way as after the Bill comes into effect in 1949."
  It goes on to set out the arrangements in that connection, and the only restriction, as far as the student is concerned, is the proviso that there is a place for him in the university.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman not only for the satisfactory reply, but also for the phenomenally prompt acceptance of a suggestion made from this side of the House. I hope I shall not appear to presume too much on his benevolence if I put him a further point. The right hon. Gentleman referred yesterday to the provisions for deferment of service on hardship grounds. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, these hardship grounds are often financial. There is the case of the young man earning good wages who is supporting, shall we say, an aged or an invalid parent. That difficulty was overcome, during the war, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, by a system of war service grants. The young man was not deferred but financial compensation was given in respect of his liabilities to support his dependants. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman would be in a position to answer that question at the moment, but it is felt that there is

  1853
  room under this Bill for some system similar to that of the war service grant, to deal with the limited number of cases which will arise of acute financial hardship, when a young man with liabilities is taken from good wages, to the relatively restricted remuneration offered him in the Service.
  Those are minor points of detail, and if I may I should now like to put one major point to the House. The difficulties which I feel, and which I think hon Members on both sides of the House feel about this Bill, is that we have not yet been told precisely what are the military needs which this Bill is designed to implement. Nor have we been told precisely for what the men when called up, will be used. It is impossible for hon. Members on either side to have that clear view of the position which they should have unless we are given a great deal more enlightenment on this subject from the Government Front Bench. In passing, may I say that the right hon. Gentleman's statement that conscription was not going to be called conscription but was going to be called national service, does not amount to a very substantial justification? The people of this country know it is, in fact, conscription under whatever label it is described, and I hope a more substantial argument will be adduced from the Government Front Bench.
  There is one point on which I think the right hon. Gentleman failed to satisfy a good many hon. Members, and that is whether in his search for the necessary military manpower all alternative sources of supply have been properly investigated. The Minister of Defence the other day, brushed aside a suggestion made by several of my hon. Friends in regard to the recruitment of a foreign legion. He must accept I think, the view that the responsibility for brushing aside this constructive suggestion, falls squarely on the shoulders of the Government and adds to the responsibility for justifying the necessity for this Measure. As an illustration of the lack of clarity in the minds of the Government as to what they are doing, may I give two instances? First of all, Yesterday the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour was challenged by one of his own hon. Friends below the Gangway in regard to manpower under this Bill. The passage appears in column 1686 of the OFFICIAL REPORT. The hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. C. Shawcross) asks:
  1854
  "Can my right hon. Friend give an estimate of how many, men will be in uniform when this scheme is in full operation, say, in five years time?" —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1947; Vol. 435, c. 1686.]
  The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour said, very fairly, that he did not know but that he would find out. I do not want to labour the point, but it seems to indicate a certain lack of clarity in planning these matters, when the responsible Minister does not know when he introduces a Bill, what effect in manpower his own Bill is going to have.
  There is a further illustration of perhaps greater importance. In the speech by the Minister we were not told how these men who are to be called up, are going to be employed, but some kind of idea can be gathered from the memorandum submitted by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War in support of the Army Estimates. From this it appears that a large proportion of what is still described as the Territorial Army—which, of course, as the House is well aware, is simply the reserves under a new name—will be employed on the anti-aircraft defence of Great Britain. I do not know whether the Government can enlighten us on the implications of this, but perhaps the Minister of Defence will do so, when he replies to the Debate tonight.
  In the first place, as the Minister of Defence will be well aware, none of the men called up under this Bill will pass into the reserve or the Territorial Army until July, 1950, at the earliest. Does that mean that until that tolerably distant date, the anti-aircraft defences of this country will not have more than the skeleton provided by the volunteers of the Territorial Army? That is a matter of major importance. Secondly, I did not understand the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour to tell the House yesterday that during their 18 months full-time service, these men would be employed in the anti-aircraft defences. But hon. Members who have any knowledge of anti-aircraft gunnery know that, it is a matter of the utmost complexity and difficulty and I do not know how men who have served their 18 months' full time service in, say, an infantry battalion, can be expected to be very much use after only 60 days' additional training, in operating the infinitely complex mechanism of antiaircraft artillery and its ancillary apparatus. I do not know if any thought

  1855
  has been given to this or what the Government's plan is.
  Again, have the Government considered the manifest diplomatic disadvantage of the manning of the anti-aircraft defences of this country with territorial reservists? The decision to call out the reserves in a tense diplomatic situation, is a grave one for any Government and one which of itself, may aggravate a difficult situation? Yet the Government will be faced, in such a difficult situation, with the alternative of doing that, or of leaving the major part of the anti-aircraft defences unmanned. I hope that the Minister of Defence when he replies will give some indication at least, that the Government have considered the difficulties which will follow—or which would appear likely to follow—the use of the Territorial reservists, brought into being by this Bill, for a large part of the anti-aircraft defences of this country.
  Wing-Commander Millington: I apologise for interrupting the hon. Gentleman, but it seems to me that in the very interesting argument which he is developing, he has taken no account of the fact that by 1950, the date to which he has referred, the probable speed of aircraft against which we might be defending these islands will be over 600 miles an hour at least, and that the most likely role of anti-aircraft defence will not be against aeroplanes as such. In those circumstances, is his argument as valid as it might have been on an earlier occasion?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I respect, as I am sure do all hon. Members, the very intimate experience which the hon. and gallant Member has had of the effects of antiaircraft artillery. If one thing is certain in this infinitely difficult technical matter, it is that the whole tendency of modern development is to increase both the complexity of the apparatus involved, and also the speed with which an attack can be launched. Therefore, in response to the hon. and gallant Member's intervention, I would say that although I believe my argument to be wholly valid at the moment, I think that by 1950 it will be even stronger inasmuch as the apparatus will be more complicated and the potential threat even speedier. I cannot anticipate, and I am sure the Government do not anticipate, that in the present tendency for increasing the complexity and elabora-
  1856
  tion of all these incredible types of apparatus which the scientists can invent, there will be any diminution in this process but rather an accentuation.
  There is only one other matter with which I wish to trouble the House It is to ask the Minister of Defence a question. How does he dovetail into the scheme under this Bill, the training of future officers? It is obvious that the future officer will be called up in the normal way. But is it intended that he shall spend any of his 18 months full time service doing specifically officer training, or will that training merely begin at the end of the 18 months? Further, has the right hon. Gentleman considered, and can he tell the House, what is his intention with regard to the provision of new younger officers in the territorial Army? Is it intended that men shall be commissioned at the end of their 18 months full-time service, with a view to becoming officers of the Reserve; or will officers of the Reserve, be confined to those who have been officers during their full-time service? There is nothing in the Bill about that, but presumably the Government have some idea on the provision of efficient officers for our Armed Forces. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that.
  The House is being asked, and I have not the slightest doubt, will accede to the request, to hand over to the Government for 18 months, complete control over the lives of a whole generation. Speaking for myself I would say that is not a thing which one does lightly or happily. It is a thing which can only be justified—as I believe it can be justified—by the grim necessities of the situation. But I hope that the Government, if they are given this immense power, will realise that, in return, they owe to the House the very full responsibility of seeing that those 18 months are used to the full, in the most fruitful manner. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, that hon. Members on this side of the House will be vigilant and will watch with the most careful scrutiny, to see that this precious thing which he and the Government are being given is not wasted by departmental apathy or governmental incompetence.
  3.57 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: So many great Measures have been introduced in the present House of Commons

  1857
  since it met—Measures which either affect the lives of the people already or will affect them in the future—that I believe we have almost exhausted the adjectives which we can apply to them. But this Measure is unique. It makes such a fundamental change that it deserves all the adjectives applied to it. It is a Measure which impinges upon the personal liberties of the people of this country—there can be no doubt about that. It brings about a constitutional change such as has never yet been effected in time of peace in this country. I agree with the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) that the change in title from "conscription" to "national service" is not the kind of camouflage which will deceive anybody. This Measure will introduce conscription into the life of this country in time of peace, and will introduce it on a permanent basis. Let us have no mistake about that.
  For that reason it is not a Measure which should have been introduced unless there was real necessity for it. There must be an overwhelming case for its introduction. It would be necessary first to prove that there is a real national emergency; second, that the need to cope with that emergency cannot be met by voluntary methods; and, third, that the emergency can be met by conscription. I am sorry I was not here to hear the first part of the Minister of Labour's speech, but I have read it with very great care, and never, in the introduction of a Measure of such major importance, have I known so little attention paid to the principles underlying the need for the proposed change. Scarcely an argument was put forward; there was just a passing reference to the duties that would lie upon this country. There was a very careful analysis and elucidation of the provisions of the Bill, but no attempt to deal with the fundamental principles underlying them. I can only feel that the Minister's heart was not in this Bill, and I hope that is true also of some of his colleagues.
  What is the position of the Government and of the parties who support this Bill, and, I should like to ask, of those outside in the country, who have placed their faith in them? It has been a habit of Members on the Government Front Bench, and of those who sit behind them, when challenged from this side of the House on any of the Measures that have been intro-
  1858
  duced, to reply, "We have a mandate for this." In the case of the nationalisation of the Bank of England, the nationalisation of transport and in all these great Measures, the reply has been, "We asked for the suffrages of the people, and they voted for us. We are in power, and we mean to carry out what they voted for." What would have been the position if, in the middle of their programme, they had put, "The Labour Party as a party demands conscription in time of peace"? This is the party which claimed that they stood alongside my party for peace. This is the party which condemned military preparations and voted even for a reduction of the Estimates for the Armed Forces. That was their attitude. What is more, as was said yesterday, attention was drawn on so many platforms, and rightly drawn, to the burden of taxation in this country, and to how much, out of every £ of taxation levied, was due in the past to the preparations for future war. Have the right hon. Gentlemen opposite forgotten the speeches which they made? I hope not.
  While I am on this question of a mandate, may I remind right hon. Gentlemen opposite and those who support them in this Measure, of the taunts thrown out by them in 1939, when Mr. Chamberlain introduced the Conscription Bill for time of war? They accused him of going back upon his word, and on the pledge he had given to the people, the pledge which had been given before the Election, and the pledge which had been repeated exactly four weeks before the Bill was introduced. Although war was looming up at that time, although Czechoslovakia lay under the heel of Germany, and we knew that the terrible moment had to come when we would call a halt, the right hon. Gentleman opposite and every Member of that party voted against conscription. [Interruption.] I am asked what I did. I voted both for the Resolution and for the Second Reading of that Bill, for the reason that we were then face to face with a grim national necessity.
  Dr. Haden Guest: I said that not every Member of this party voted against it.
  Mr. Davies: I apologise and withdraw, but I am certain that the bulk of the party opposite, and certainly the whole of the Front Bench, voted against it. I have not troubled to go through all the

  1859
  lists of those who belonged to the party at that time to compare the voting. With regard to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches, they, in their heart of hearts, have always been in favour of conscription as a good thing in itself. I agree that they have said from time to time, and have given pledges and adhered to them, that they would not introduce conscription without an appeal to the country. My political memory is a very long one. I remember the taunts thrown out by Members of that party against Lord Haldane and his Territorial Army, and the efforts he was making to restore the Territorial Army.
  Earl Winterton: This is a very interesting piece of personal reminiscence. The only person in the Tory Party in the House of Commons in 1912 who supported conscription was myself; the rest of the party was against it.
  Mr. Davies: The noble Lord has never lacked courage, and I am perfectly certain that he was then expressing an opinion which the other members of his party had not the courage to do. There were even songs in the music halls deriding the Territorial Army.
  Mr. Pickthorn: When did the Tories go to the music halls?
  Mr. Davies: I respect the views which have been held by right hon. and hon. Members of the Tory Party. They believed in the need for conscription; it was part and parcel of their idea of the way in which we could keep the Empire. It was an attitude with which I fundamentally disagreed, but they were perfectly entitled to take up that position, and they did. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) taunted me and my party yesterday on the ground of our consistency. The only consistency that the right hon. Gentleman has shown throughout the years has been in his inconsistency. He was First Lord of the Admiralty on 4th August, 1914, when this country threw down the challenge to the Germans and the Kaiser. We entered that war on a voluntary system, not only for the Navy and Air Force, but for the Army. There was no threat of resignation from him at that time. He remained in that Government until conscription was introduced in 1916. What
  1860
  happened when the war was over? After 11th November, 1918, not one conscript was called up. It must be remembered that then we were in a much more difficult position militarily than is facing the country today. Nevertheless, not only were no conscripts called up after 11th November, 1918, but by 1920 it had been decided to abolish conscription altogether. Who was the then Secretary of State for War making the proud announcement to this House, on how the Government had been able in that short while to reconstruct the Army and re-man all the garrisons throughout the whole world on a voluntary basis, described it in language of which he and he only is master? It was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford. He began his speech, on 23rd February, 1920, with these proud words:
  "On the 31st of next month conscription will be abolished, and within a month from that date the last conscript is entitled to be released from the Army."
  It is only right that I should quote the memorable words used on that occasion. After speaking of 'what had been accomplished since the end of the war, he went on to say:
  "It almost merits a word, or at any rate, a nod of recognition for the officers who have worked so indefatigably and so devotedly through all this year and have now achieved their results which I venture to think any one of us here a year ago would certainty have declared to be impossible."
  He was speaking of the reorganisation on a voluntary basis.
  "In the absence of any such tribute, I will invite the Committee to consider what sort of language would have been used supposing we had not succeeded, and supposing I had to stand here today, as I might easily have done, and point out, that, owing to the fact that we had not been able to recruit a voluntary Army, I must ask for a prolongation of compulsory military service"—
  and this is the argument now being brought forword—
  "keeping at any rate the younger conscripts who took no part in the war for another year to come. The measure of the irritation which would have been excited by such a demand is, I think, the measure of the recognition which should be accorded to the military men who have succeeded in staving off such a demand."
  Then came the proud words:
  "We have abolished conscription."
  There was further tribute to what they had been able to accomplish, and a description of the difficulties which were

  1861
  then confronting us in foreign parts of the world—the Middle East, Palestine, Syria, and Russia, where there were certain military forces. Then followed a wonderful description of what this old country had achieved. The House will find it well worth hearing again:
  "The second consideration was still more arbitrary. The Army was limited by the numbers of men who could be persuaded to enlist in it under the voluntary system. It happened that those two separate and unrelated considerations arrived by their different roads at a very similar conclusion. Over a long period of years the peace and order of the British Empire was, in fact, maintained by about seventy-five battalions abroad and seventy-five at home, with the due proportion of other Arms. Is it not a wonder, and is it not an admirable fact, that the Imperial authority should have been maintained over these vast expanses comprising more than one-fifth, I believe, of the entire population of the world by less than a quarter of a million of white soldiers? "
  May I remind an hon. Member who seems to want to interrupt me, that the atomic bomb had not then been invented, nor the 600 mile an hour aeroplane?
  "To find a parallel you have to go back to the greatest period of the Roman Empire, to the age of the Antonines; to find a parallel for so great and so wide a peace being sustained upon so slender an armed force, you have to go hack to the Antonines and even then the parallel is greatly in favour of British example. That is in principal what we are striving to reproduce in future years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd February, 1920; Vol. 125, C. 1342.]
  I have now lived to hear the right hon. Gentleman denounce it. What has really been the guiding principle throughout which made for the greatness of this country and the unity of its Empire, for its ready response from every corner of the globe with help for this old country when it is in difficulties, whether from a military or an economic angle? It is the spirit of freedom which is deeply seated in every one of us. The right hon. Gentleman has taunted the Liberal Party for sticking to its principles. That is the best tribute he could have paid. I am proud, ineffably proud, of the fact that I was fortunate enough to be born in this Empire. I am proud of what it has accomplished, I am proud of its traditions; so far as I know, and I do not think there is anyone who could contradict me, my people have been here since the days when Caesar himself invaded these islands, so it is no wonder I am proud. I know that I am expressing the feelings of everyone when I say that in defence of that tradition and custom, and that spirit of liberty which has been the envy of the rest of the world, we would sacrifice all, if the neces-
  1862
  sity arose. In time of war, when this country was threatened, I together with some right hon. Gentlemen opposite was urging that great Measure, passed through this House in about 10 minutes, which laid it down that in that time of grim necessity not only should we call in all the men and even the women, but that all our resources should be flung into the common pool for the defence of everything we held dear. [An HON. MEMBER: "Was it?"] They did not carry it out to the full—
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: I am sure the whole House was impressed by the right hon. Gentleman's claim of long descent, in that his family was here when Caesar came. Since all of us who are of British blood came down from Adam, were not all our families here when Caesar came?
  Mr. Davies: That is the kind of argument that is worthy of the hon. Gentleman, and of the kind of stuff he writes and talks. I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford has returned. There is something extraordinary about people who change either their opinions or their faith. They not only try to outdo those of the new faith which they have embraced, but they get a sort of ecstatic exaltation out of denouncing those whom they have abandoned. That was always the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman when he left those among whom he is now sitting again. Who denounced them, their principles or their motives? He, with that mastery of language to which we have been accustomed, denounced them for something like 20 years. Then he was proud to fight under the flag of Liberalism; he was one of those who were nailing the flag of Liberalism to the mast. Now, when he cannot get us to haul it down, he spends his time trying to shoot it down. He could do better than that, and one is sorry to find that such great powers and attributes are not used to better purpose.
  I have said that this Bill interferes with personal liberty and brings about the greatest constitutional change of our times. What is more, if there is danger, this is the moment when we should use all our best endeavours to cement the country and bring us all together. Can there be any doubt that the introduction of this Measure not only divides the party opposite, but divides the country? May I mention another matter that has been much present in the minds of hon. and

  1863
  right hon. Gentlemen? The Government were careful to say that this would not lead to industrial conscription, but let us consider that. They are going to take these young men, just when they are reaching their adult stage of manhood, and compel them to go into the Armed Forces. Why? The only answer that can be made, is that there is a national emergency, that the whole safety of the State is at stake and, therefore, we must change all the rules of the past. The transition from one emergency to the other is not great, the safety of the State may be threatened from the inside, from the economic position, just as easily as from the outside. They realise that now, when they make a careful distinction between the miners and the rest of the young men. They say to the young men, "You will either go and hew coal, or you will go into the Army in future." Suppose some other difficulty arises. What is there in logic or in any form of argument, to prevent someone standing at that Box and saying, "The country is in danger and we have now got to use our young men to meet the situation?" We are doing it even today. We have just had this tremendous blizzard, and extraordinary occurrences have taken place in the Fen district. The Army has been rushed in to help. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not? "] Certainly, why not—and certainly that will be said, some day, at that Box for some other reason. At last, it seems to have sunk into the minds of hon. Members. What is there then to prevent industrial conscription from coming along?
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: Would it be all right to order the Army to help in the floods if it was a volunteer Army, but not right if it was a conscript Army?
  Mr. Davies: I was not pressing that point, but may I repeat it in an elementary way? [Laughter.] I am glad that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen recognise that they are in the elementary class. The Government are conscripting young men today, in time of peace, into the Armed Forces on the ground that there is a national necessity which requires it. I say that that national necessity may not come from the outside, but may be something inherent, and they can use the same argument as the reason for introducing
  1864
  industrial conscription. That was what I was arguing, and I was illustrating my point by that relatively small incident—small, though it affects the welfare of some thousands of people. In this necessity we can turn to the Army and use it; whether they are conscripts or volunteers, it just points the moral of the danger of introducing conscription in time of peace, namely, that it can then be introduced also for industrial purposes whenever the need is felt. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman has been most helpful with his interruptions; it has just occurred to him that nationalisation will also lead in that way, to an easy transition to industrial conscription.
  What is the real emergency facing this country? Is it a danger of any military threat from the outside, or is it not, in truth and in fact, because of a weakness in our economic position, a weakness which is undoubtedly affecting the position even of the Foreign Secretary in any negotiations which he undertakes? If perchance he had 40 million tons of coal for export, his position face to face with his colleagues in the Conference at Moscow, would be far and away stronger than it is today. But does anybody imagine that his position face to face with those who are sitting with him at Moscow will be strengthened by the knowledge that the young men of this country are to be conscripted?
  Only two reasons have been put forward for this Bill; one is to obtain, they say, fully trained reserves capable of going into battle without waiting for six months' training, and the second is to fulfil our defence commitments. I do not understand how this 18 months' training can really fit these men so that at all times, with all the rapid changes that are taking place, they could suddenly jump into the breach and be of immediate assistance? Surely, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence, with his long experience as First Lord of the Admiralty, realises that the training of one man for a particular purpose takes a very much longer time than the training of another man for another purpose. Time and again one finds that the men being used in the Army or Navy are those who can be used immediately because of the training they have had outside. The Forces have, rightly, drawn heavily, for instance, upon those who have been trained at the Post Office. For drivers they have drawn upon

  1865
  those who were trained on the streets of London. Those are only small illustrations.
  I come to the second heading, that it is to fulfil our defence commitments. I was interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence say, the other day, that we could not foresee those commitments until 1949. If one cannot see what the commitments will be, how can one possibly say what will be the numbers of men required? Until that is decided, it is futile to argue about the raising of men. Our defence commitments are home security, Commonwealth and overseas communications, and the United Nations. What are the increases required today for home security over and above, not only what we had in 1938-1939, but what we could get under a voluntary system? We have not yet had a reply to that question. May we have one tonight?
  With regard to Commonwealth and overseas communications, what are they compared with what our position was at the end of the 1914-18 war? In 14 months' time, we shall be withdrawing from India. We are already withdrawing from Egypt. We shall be withdrawing from Burma. [Interruption.] I assume so, because we have said to the Burmese that they can have self-government, and they are proceeding on that; therefore, I presume that defence will be, as in the case of India, a matter for the Burmese. Our commitments, therefore, in respect of these countries, rightly, are getting less and less. Why should there be more men?
  Mr. Thomas Reid: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman seriously ask us to believe that when we withdraw from India and Burma, there will not be any arrangement made for the defence of those countries?
  Mr. Davies: According to the statement made by the Prime Minister, it is part of the communication made to those countries, and for all the hon. Gentleman and I know, those countries may, although we hope they will take the other decision, contract out of the Commonwealth. The greatest hope of all of us, for the sake of their peace and contentment, is that they will remain within the Commonwealth.
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: Can the right hon. and learned
  1866
  Gentleman say how the withdrawal of the Army from India and Burma will affect the strength of the Navy? Will it have to be increased or diminished?
  Mr. Davies: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is most helpful. As far as I am aware, it was the boast of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence that voluntary recruitment for the Navy is sufficient.
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: No, certainly not.
  Mr. Davies: That was said both of the Air Force and the Navy, or is it now to be that, under this Bill, we are to conscript for the Navy and the Air Force as well as for the Army? That is rather news to me. I had thought, I think rightly, that recruitment for the Navy and the Air Force would still be on a voluntary basis, from among those who have been conscribed for military service. With regard to the third heading, we all ought to play our part with regard to United Nations obligations. It is there that really lies the peace of the world. But what is the position? We already have in this country conscription that will carry us to the end of 1948. Have the Government no hopes of getting the United Nations upon a proper working basis? [Interruption.] From the replies and retorts that are made, one really wonders why one has made such tremendous sacrifices in both great wars if they are to lead only, again and again, to the creation of force to fight force. There is no hope in the world whatever for complete peace if each nation must train its best young men to kill other young men. Do not hon. Members hope that some day there will be general peace on earth?
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the Foreign Secretary has slaved and toiled to try to get security and to give some teeth to the Security Council? Is there any other hon. or right hon. Gentleman who could have done much more?
  Mr. Davies: That is the point I am making, that the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary is struggling to establish the United Nations organisation, and the next moment the Government say, "We have no faith in carrying it out, and, therefore, we must have a conscript

  1867
  Army." I have been suggesting that it would be far and away better it our economic position were made stronger rather than that we should have this Bill. Of course, we believe in collective security—
  Dr. Haden Guest rose—
  Mr. Davies: I have been very good in giving way, but I cannot give way any more. What is really required? I should have thought that what was really needed was to make the conditions of military service more attractive.
  Colonel Wigg: Unemployment.
  Mr. Davies: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman mean that it should be sufficiently attractive only to attract those who are unemployed? Is that the suggestion? What I ask, and what I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will agree, is that the conditions in the Armed Forces should be so attractive that they compete with industry—
  Colonel Wigg: A military artistocracy
  Mr. Davies: —that they should be so attractive that they compete with all industries, and not merely provide a sort of refuge to which men go when they have no other employment. The conditions should be made such that they will attract the men required, and then those men will want the best possible training. Above all, scientific people are required today more than men on the barrack square. Those are the conditions which, I should have thought, would have met the situation today far and away better than this tremendous change that is being proposed in this Bill. Since 1914, we have witnessed loss after loss, we hoped temporarily, of rights which we not only cherished but which have made this old country great. On that 4th August, Sir Edward Grey used words which have become memorable about the lights of Europe going out. I have seen the lights of liberty being dimmed one by one, but now the greatest one of all, the free will of British subjects, is being challenged, and challenged in such a way that it will become part and parcel of the supposed democratic government of this country. It is a change which I will, to the end of my time, fight, believing as I do in the free will of every man.
  4.42 p.m.
  Mr. Crossman: I should like to express the gratitude which, I am sure, we all feel for the sincerity of the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies). I think he said with equal emotion, although with a good deal less of conciseness, what was said yesterday from this side of the House in opposition to the Bill. I shall not gibe against the right hon. and learned Gentleman's consistency. I rather envy him his position as a member of a gallant minority fighting against overwhelming odds. Times have changed.
  Mrs. Nichol: It is a good position to be in sometimes.
  Mr. Crossman: Fifteen years ago there was a small minority in the Labour movement fighting against overwhelming odds; 15 years ago I was one of the small group who stood for rearmament, in order to save the League of Nations. [Interruption.] Perhaps I may be allowed to make my own speech. Fifteen years ago there was in the Labour Party a very small minority which stood for the things that are now accepted by the Government of the day, and I believe that we should extend to the minority who disagree with us on this Bill the same respect as the majority afforded to us at that time. This subject has been a continual problem within the Labour movement [Interruption.] If I was not precise enough, let me say that I advocated rearmament 15 years ago. At least, I have this in common with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that both of us have been consistent.
  I would like to take up one essential point made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I thought there were three cardinal questions which the right hon. and learned Gentleman put to the Government to deserve an answer I think he formulated them as follows: First, is there a national emergency sufficient to justify conscription; secondly, can that national emergency be met by voluntary means, if it exists; and, thirdly, if not, can it better, or adequately, be met by conscription? I entirely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that those three questions have not been answered by any Government statement either in the Press or in the House up to date. I think the Government have put their supporters in an extremely difficult

  1869
  situation by their presentation of this Bill. They have not given us the basic principles on which they justify it. They have not stated clearly the strategy for which they desire it.
  Mr. Cove: Let us have it from the hon. Member.
  Mr. Crossman: In addition, the Government have embarrassed their supporters by what I and many other hon. Members consider to be an appalling extravagance in the Estimates for the Army. We were glad and, indeed we were somewhat proud to find that the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was not too proud to borrow from Labour back benchers the arguments which they used on the Army Estimates some few weeks ago, protesting against the secrecy of the Government. I believe the whole atmosphere of this Debate would have been different if the Government had said to us, "We agree about the extravagance in the Army; we agree that demobilisation is absolutely essential in the next two years; we accede to your demands for a speed up." But we have not had one concession to common sense on that subject from the Government and it has made it extremely difficult for those of us here who are worried, and feel our responsibility in casting our votes, to decide what to do on this particular issue.
  The Government have made it even more difficult by the 18 months period. That period changes the whole character of the National Service Bill, for it means a decision by the Government in peace time to use conscript soldiers for garrison duties overseas. I can and I do accept—and I will give the reasons for this later—the necessity for a period of one year in order to provide a trained reserve in this country for national defence; I cannot accept the principle, which is not accepted by any European democratic country at all, that conscript soldiers should be used for garrison work overseas. I want to make it perfectly clear in the House, in supporting this Bill, that it is only because I and many of my hon. Friends intend to put down an Amendment in the Committee stage to reduce the period from 18 months to a year. On that basis I feel it is possible conscientiously to support this Bill, particularly in view of the fact that it applies
  1870
  only after 1949, by which time it is essential to have the demobilisation for which we have been pressing.
  Mr. C. Davies: Would the hon. Gentleman add this: that if he does not succeed in getting his Amendment, he will vote against the Third Reading?
  Mr. Crossman: I have every hope that we shall get this Amendment, judging from the feeling below and above the Gangway. I realise that in saying that, I have not in the least convinced hon. Members below the Gangway of the case for conscription. I do not propose to try to do that because I believe it would be impossible by rational means. But I do intend to try to persuade them of one thing: that conscience is not a monopoly of the anti-conscriptionists, and I hope they will hear patiently the case of one person who is trying to tell them why. I am willing to argue with them as far as I can point by point, and to show my conscientious support for this Bill. But a conscience should not become self-righteousness, and some of the interruptions remind me of that.
  I want to deal first with the objections on principle to conscription. I have a great belief in the basic common sense of the British people, and I take it seriously that the British people, for hundreds of years, have had the strongest objection and resentment against introducing conscription for the British Army. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford referred to the irritation which would have been caused in 1920, by maintaining conscription. I fully agree with that. There would have been profound irritation in 1920 at the maintenance of conscription; there would have been a genuine revolt of the common man against it, and I will show a little later why there has been a change since 1920.
  I think we ought to note one fact: every country in Europe which can be directly invaded by land has had conscription, and the two major countries which up till now could not be invaded by land, Britain and America, have not had conscription. I do not claim that there is anything final about this argument, but I think it should be noted—[An HON. MEMBER: "And Switzerland."] Switzerland—a country which has a deep pacific tradition, still has conscription today. It is worth noticing that during the last war there was a larger number of men, proportionate to the size of the population, called up into

  1871
  the Swiss Army than into any other army in the world, and I would remind those who would tell me that conscription for military service is no good for a small country, that on three occasions the Germans had intended to invade Switzerland—
  Mr. Cove: Is the hon. Member saying that conscription in Switzerland saved them from invasion? Did it?
  Mr. Crossman: I am trying to explain to the hon. Member—
  Mr. Cove rose—
  Hon. Members: Order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): The hon. Member is not entitled to interrupt unless the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) is prepared to give way.
  Mr. Cove rose—
  Hon. Members: Order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member must restrain himself. Does the hon. Member for East Coventry give way?
  Mr. Crossman: I do, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
  Mr. Cove: I would like to know from the hon. Member if conscription saved Switzerland.
  Mr. Crossman: The hon. Member has wasted a minute unnecessarily. The answer I was trying to give him was that in the course of the last war there were three occasions on which the invasion of Switzerland had actually been planned.
  Mr. Cove: Planned.
  Mr. Crossman: It was very convenient for the Germans to get Switzerland, but on certain conditions. One was that the tunnels through Switzerland should be preserved. The second was that the town of Zurich and the whole industrial belt of Switzerland should be intact. The Swiss made a military plan which involved the blowing up of all the tunnels through Switzerland, the devastation of the whole of the town of Zurich and all the industrial belt, with a retreat to a mountain hide-out in the centre where the whole army would gather together to resist the Germans. According to military experts—I am not one—a study of the German
  1872
  documents now proves conclusively that the final thing which deterred the Germans from the actual step of invading Switzerland was what the Swiss Army would do. There was the deterrent element of the Swiss intention to defend their country. That decided it. I have noticed in Palestine with Jew and Arab, it makes a certain difference if you are prepared to defend even quite a small country, against a large Power if need be.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Crossman: I hope to deal with the points one by one. One of the reasons why Switzerland was not invaded was the admirable and highly efficient militia which the Swiss had organised. I do not assume that anybody below the Gangway will accept that. I am only explaining my reasons, I am not asking hon. Members to accept my reasons.
  Mr. Follick rose—
  Mr. Crossman: I want to suggest, therefore, that the reason why, for at least two generations, the Labour movement has been right in opposing conscription for this country is because we have been a great naval Power whose security did not depend on a land Army. We could afford the luxury of liberty; we could afford not to have a land Army for two reasons. The first reason was because we had the Navy; the second was because the French took it on the chin each time; we relied on other people to take it on the chin while we mobilised at leisure and we relied on our Navy to secure our islands. I assure my hon. Friends that political principles are based to some extent on history and geography. We are a commonsense people, we have understood that we did not require an Army. That was right at the time.
  But now I will call the attention of my hon. Friends below the Gangway to a significant thing. In 1939 another Government decided to introduce conscription. I remember that I was on a paper at the time which was not at all in favour of it, and we spent a whole morning discussing what line our paper—a near-Socialist paper—should take an the subject. I tried to persuade my colleagues that we should be in favour of conscription. They said, "The whole Labour movement will be up in arms. There will be a mass demonstration against it. The people are against it." The really striking

  1873
  thing was that, in 1939, the people of this country had an acuter sense of reality than many hon. Members. The Labour leaders opposed conscription in 1939, and I think they were quite wrong to do so. I think many people on our Front Bench would agree with me that they should have seen the realities in 1939 as clearly as the mass of our people. The mass of our people had seen the change of situation since 1920. In 1939 they accepted the necessity, and there was scarcely a ripple in the country when conscription was actually introduced. There were a number of pacifists—[Interruption.] Am I told there are no pacifists? Well, there were a number of non-pacifists, like the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) who opposed it for non-pacifist reasons. Whatever their motives, they were a small minority compared with the man in the street, who accepted the grim necessity and showed himself a great deal wiser than his political leaders. He often does.
  Mr. Zilliacus rose—
  Mr. Crossman: I want to deal with the hon. Member for Gateshead. He does not pretend that conscription is bad in principle; he simply says that between the wars it was our duty as a Labour movement, if we wanted to fight the policy of the Government, to deny it the Armies with which to carry out its policy. He even urged a general strike at the Southport conference of the Labour Party but at that point the present Foreign Secretary intervened, and said he ran the general strikes and not the hon. Member for Gateshead. It was at Southport that I realised for the first time the monolithic character of the present Foreign Secretary. All I can say to the hon. Member for Gateshead is that I believe he was wrong between the wars in the advice which he gave the Labour movement, and I believe he is wrong now, and I shall say why.
  Like him I happened to travel in Europe a great deal between the wars. I remember being in Vienna in 1934 when the defenceless Austrian Socialists were mown down. I did not find a single Austrian Socialist who said, "I pray that the Labour movement in Britain will go on opposing rearmament." On the contrary, I found every Austrian Socialist praying for re-armament, saying "Cannot you realise that we must have a strong Britain? We want you to change your foreign policy, but if you wait until
  1874
  you have changed your foreign policy before starting on the prototype of an aeroplane, where will you be?" I went to France in 1936. I tell the House seriously that, in my view, if we had had a land Army which the French could have felt would have been by their side, the German invasion of the Rhineland might have ended in the death of Hitlerism. Already, the French had a deep inferiority complex, feeling that they would take it on the chin once again, that there was nothing coming from Britain.
  I come now to 1938. I happened to be in Czechoslovakia during the period of the May elections, when the Czech Army mobilized—one of the most heroic things I have ever seen, a small nation mobilising. But it was embarrassing to me, as a British Socialist, when Czech Socialists came to me and said, "I notice you are still voting against re-armament." It made no sense to the people. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] If anything could persuade me that I was wrong, it would be Tory applause, but it does not. I say it made no sense to the people in Europe for a Socialist in Britain to say, "I will deny the Government armaments until I have changed its foreign policy," and it makes even less sense to deny a Labour Government armaments until it changes its foreign policy. That is the basis of my opposition to what my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead says.
  Mr. Zilliacus: May I interrupt my hon. Friend?
  Mr. Crossman: No. My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead says that we must stop the Government having a wrong foreign policy by putting pressure on it. Why does he not deny the Government nationalisation of transport, or something of that sort, to bring pressure to bear on them? I want to change foreign policy, and I hope that in a year or two, we shall have changed it, but we shall have to have defence meanwhile as a means of carrying out that foreign policy. If any hon. Member believes that a Labour Foreign Secretary does not require an Army, Navy or Air Force—[Interruption.] I say they will need an Army, Navy and Air Force. It is irresponsible to give as a ground for voting against national defence, that one dislikes the foreign policy of the Government. That is totally irrelevant. We should keep defence and foreign policy separate, and realise that

  1875
  the strength of Great Britain, even under a Tory Government, may be of value to the liberty of Europe.
  Mr. Zilliacus: I wish to ask my hon. Friend three questions. The first is, did rearmament between the wars save the peace, or the League of Nations? Secondly, would we create a situation which would make the Government change their foreign policy if half our Members went into the Lobby tonight in favour of the Amendment? Thirdly—well, I will leave the third.
  Mr. Crossman: My hon. Friend wants me to diverge from my main theme. He asks me if rearmament between the wars helped to save the League. Rearmament between the wars certainly saved us, and, if it had not done so there would be no United Nations now. What it accomplished made all the difference between defeat and non-defeat. The answer therefore to the first question is "Yes." Rearmament helped us to build at long last collective security against Hitler. Now, I will answer the hon. Member's second question, which is, would the abstention, or the opposition, of a large number of Labour Members force a change of foreign policy? I say it would not. The Government are well aware that the issues of defence and foreign policy are separate issues, and they will pay more heed to responsible people, who separate the two, and do not try to confuse the issue.
  I want to deal with the other major question which my hon. Friend asked. It is, are we to fight the Russians? That is the second objection to conscription—that it is to be used to fight the Russians, and that the British conscript army might be used to defend the outposts of America, while America has no conscript army at all. I think I was the first in this House to say that there was a grievous danger in any foreign policy which might lead to our defending the advanced outposts of America. I share with my hon. Friend all his apprehensions in regard to that. I want changes in foreign policy to avoid that.
  Mr. Stokes rose—
  Mr. Crossman: No, I cannot give way again. I suggest that those of us who stand for an independent British policy, independent of America, had better realise that an independent British policy cer-
  1876
  tainly demands minimum Armed Forces. One cannot have a pacifist policy if one says, "Let us not ask for American protection, let us not do all these things for America so as to have her on our side." If I ask for an independent policy—indipendent of America—I must conscientiously accept the need for armed forces—and possibly more than an Anglo-American alliance would demand.
  Now, as to the question of a Russian war. It is being asked, "Who are these troops being trained to fight?" My view is the same as when we discussed the Army Estimates. There is no possible chance of a war with Russia, I think, for seven years, possibly for 15. This army will not be prepared or trained to fight any Power at all. Indeed, if the Foreign Secretary, or the Minister of Defence were so irresponsible as to train this army to fight any particular Power, I believe there would be something in the case of my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead. But, this army will not in fact be trained for that, not because of the goodness of the British Foreign Secretary, but because neither the Americans nor Russians are going to have a war—
  Mr. Stubbs: What are they being trained for?
  Mr. Crossman: I am glad to get all this anticipation of what I am going to say. My hon. Friend asked what they are being trained for.
  Mr. McGhee: To keep the miners in order.
  Mr. Crossman: Until we have U.N.O. security, national armaments must exist. We cannot abolish all arms. My hon. Friends merely now say they want a more efficient volunteer army. I could equally ask them, who is it to fight against? That seems as applicable to a non-conscript army, as to a conscript army.
  If we are keen, and I am keen, on European co-operation with this country, we need our arms for a European security system under U.N.O. That should be the function of our Armed Forces. Some time ago, some hon. Member on this side moved an Amendment on foreign policy indicating our desire for a European foreign policy envisaging a United Socialist States of Europe. I ask my hon. Friends to consider, supposing we

  1877
  who moved that Amendment went into the Lobby opposing conscription, what any French Socialist would say. We stand for co-operation with Europe. This country is part of Europe now, and the Channel does not exist any more—strategically. If we are part of Europe, and want to play our part in leading Europe, we must pass what Europe regards as the acid test of British Socialism—acceptance of national service. How would a Frenchman react to what I have heard one hon. Member say, "All conscript armies are defeated"? He knows that the reason why the French Army was overwhelmed was because we did not come in time.—[An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Navy?"]—I am trying to point out that we have ceased to be a naval Power, and are now a land Power, and must share with European countries responsibility for the collective security of Europe. There is not one European Socialist who will not say if we vote against this Bill, "The British Socialists have learned nothing. They are stewing in their old insularity." Let us share responsibility with other European Socialists so long as it is necessary for us to do so.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mrs. Paton) asked why we should not have a voluntary Army. That is a perfectly fair question. Here is my answer. I believe that in five years' time the R.A.F. and Navy could be fully recruited by long-service volunteers. But what about the Army? The problem is that we are not a militarist nation.
  Mrs. Paton: We are going to be.
  Mr. Crossman: There is no technical reason against a professional Army. A small professional Army was allowed to Germany. That was the disastrous mistake made by Mr. Lloyd George, who forbade them more than 100,000 men. Then those 100,000 men became every one, at least on the level of training of a sergeant, or an officer. Out of that was formed the cadre of a great army. Do our anti-conscriptionist friends feel that that is a fine example to follow? It is perfectly true that a professional army may well be more efficient than a conscript army, if one can get it. One could get it easily in Germany, because the Germans like soldiering. The British do not. We are an anti-militarist nation, and do not like being soldiers. I do not believe we
  1878
  can recruit a whole-time professional army adequate to our needs in this country without raising the prestige of the Army to a position which I do not want to see. I do not want to see the profession of the soldier regarded as the highest profession of the country. I do not think it is. I do not think it is a profession at all, and for that reason I think this job should be shared equally by the people, thanking God that we dislike it so much that we have been compelled to do it.
  As I suspected at the beginning of my speech, it is impossible to convince my hon. Friends by reason. But can they at least admit there is a conscientious case for supporting this Bill? I do not, however, think it proper to support this Bill without the limitation I made at the beginning of my speech. I would limit the use of national service strictly to national defence by reducing the period to one year. Our boys should not be used overseas. Conscription should only be used to produce a trained reserve national defence.
  5.15 p.m.
  Mr. Herbert Butler: After what appears to me a very considerable time, I now ask for the courtesy of the House in rising to address it for the first time. I have never yet been struck by the brevity of the speeches, but nevertheless I hope to learn by experience, and I myself intend to set a good example. I regret that my first speech in this House should be one of opposition to a Government of whose record I am very proud. I say this after nearly 30 years' experience in the Socialist movement. During the whole of my activities I never expected that I would ever enter this House as a Member. I was very happy indeed to expound the principles and policy of the Socialist movement, and that gave me the satisfaction I desired. I do not intend to get engaged in controversy, but I would say that in this Labour movement of ours at the moment we have so many military experts that I wonder, sometimes, at whose feet they learned their Socialism. Nevertheless, it takes all sorts to make a world, and we are very happy that we have that diverse opinion in our ranks.
  I never believed that it would fall to the lot of the Labour Government to introduce compulsory military service, and even if I had, I should still have

  1879
  retained my faith that a Socialist Government was a natural development out of the awful conditions under which our people were living. But I would have fought the idea, and I would have hoped that I should have been able to defeat it inside our own conferences and within our own ranks. The position, however, was that at all times our party was opposed to the idea of compulsory military service. Therefore, it was not necessary to fight it inside our own party machinery. I went to the electorate upon the basis of "Let us face the future." I have searched it since that time, and I cannot find any reference in it to the subject matter of this Bill. If there had been a direct or an indirect reference to it, it may be that I should have had a fairly clear conscience in my attitude to it, but there was nothing in it.
  So far as I am concerned, I am not prepared to support the Government in the imposition of this thing on our people, when we have no authority so to do. All of us on this side of the House were expounding to the electorate in 1945 the necessity for the whole of our people accepting a greater measure of responsibility towards the community. Ours was not only a party policy; ours was not only a party programme; ours was an appeal to the people to accept the view that a Socialist Government would inaugurate a new way of life. We were desirous of instilling in the minds of the people that there was a necessity for an alteration of the relationship of man to man, that we wanted greater freedom of the individual, that we wanted the people to express themselves. Economic conditions under which they were living, were such that there could be no expression of individuality.
  In my view, the Socialist movement secured its greatest support and its most sound allegiance from people who believed that we had something to offer more than a mere political programme. Therefore, I am not one of those who believe that we are here solely because the people desired us to fill their bellies. I believe the support of our movement is based upon something deeper and stronger than that. What are we doing? We are throwing it all to the wind in this proposal, which is now before the House. I hasten to assure the House that there are many of us on this side of the House. who,
  1880
  because we believed in these things, have suffered great difficulties and have lost our employment, with consequent suffering and misery, over a number of years. But we went on because we believed in it. We went on, not to come into this House and to pass Measures which will decide the conditions of people in the Armed Forces of the Crown. To those of my hon. Friends who are so keen to be participants in the glory of this military machine, I would say that I wonder what they are doing here, telling other people to do it.
  If there are any strictures implied, in the remarks I am making, upon the sponsors of the Bill, let me hasten to say that I am in no way questioning the integrity of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour or his colleagues, for whom I have the greatest respect. I believe that they in their particular spheres believe that they are pursuing the Socialist ideal, an ideal which I also hold. I am not questioning their sincerity, but I believe that they are being seriously misguided and that they are taking an easy path to what they think is an effective course for the Armed Forces of the country. I believe that the reaction of our people will be such that this Measure will defeat its own object. I am aware—and I have listened to the speeches and references by hon. Members regarding this—of the great recruiting agent for the Armed Forces of the Crown, namely, unemployment. The pay of the Armed Forces of the Crown was commensurate with the regard that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and their colleagues, who were in control of the Government of this country, had for them. The pay which they received was indicative of the regard that their masters at that particular time had for them.
  Therefore, as unemployment was the best recruiting agent, we obviously cannot expect, with an enlightened Government, of which I am proud, to have that recruiting agent in the future. What does that involve? When we are discussing the question of occupations, such as coal mining, where conditions are arduous and dirty, what do we do? We say that it is necessary, because of the arduous nature of the occupation, because of the fact that men will not go into this particular industry, to offer inducements over those prevailing in other particular industries. I believe that this Government and this

  1881
  country will eventually have to face the fact that the most important people in the country are those who do the dirty work, and that the clean collar brigade will, some time, have to be relegated in relation to the position of people who do the dirty work. These will have to get better recompense in many ways than those who do less arduous and dirty work.
  I return to my argument about the Armed Forces. I am no pacifist. I was in the 1914–18 war as a member of the Royal Navy, and I experienced the comradeship of that association. Since that time I have been a member of a war pensions committee and have seen some of the results of what is done by the people who manipulated the situation in 1914. I have never subscribed to the pacifist school of thought. I would say that in considering that we cannot get recruits into the Armed Forces of the Crown, one has to appreciate the fact that to war and the war machine, we cannot apply logic. If we want people trained in the art of killing, although we say that it is purely defensive work and that it is designed to prevent the other fellow killing the man who is being trained, if we want people to go into that particular profession, we shall have to pay them something which is commensurate with the task they are being asked to undertake.
  My constitutents in South Hackney—and we have had some famous men in South Hackney, and some who probably could not make that claim—are typical ordinary, common or garden workpeople. I am continually getting letters from my constituents complaining of a feeling of inertia, boredom and frustration. They are from constituents who are in the Forces, and who want to get out. They are in the Forces, with nothing to do, and, they want to get out, and take their place in the various branches of industrial life. I have been told that in one depot of the Royal Navy, there are thousands of men doing nothing—with no duties to perform. One man, in particular, wants to get out, and he is told that he must pay £24 to get out of the Service where he is doing nothing. He wants to get back into industry, and at the same time industry is crying out for his capacity to produce.
  On these grounds, I am opposed to this Measure. I happen to be chairman of a juvenile employment committee, and for some considerable time it has been our task to attempt to get these lads to enter
  1882
  employment, where they can be apprenticed to a job, instead of taking blind-alley occupations which might give them higher wages at a particular time. In the course of the work of this Committee we interview the lads and their parents. We endeavour to impress upon both the lads and the parents the necessity to have the boys fitted as craftsmen and technicians. Ever since the Gracious Speech there has been a falling off in the usefulness of this work. We are inevitably met by parents saying, "Why should we bother? They have to go into the Army very shortly." I listened very carefully to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour and I realise that certain measures of protection are given to the apprentices.
  Here let me say that probably I have an interest. I have three sons, but I am not speaking in this matter because I have any fear of them going into the Services. As a matter of fact, I believe that, politically, they are Tory. That is their business and not mine. It may be that as they grow older they may get some sense and I may get some more supporters—but that is by the way. I know that, so far as this employment committee is concerned, it is very difficult for us to do our job in the proper manner and to persuade these lads to go into proper industry and trade. We are now faced with an absolute lack of belief that proper skilled occupation can be made available to these young people because of this Measure.
  I conclude by saying that the matters which the Minister has indicated are purely expedients. It is the principle to which I am opposed. I do not believe that any Government, without a mandate from the people to do so, should impose this shackle of totalitarianism upon the country. I say, quite definitely, that when we were asking for the support of the electorate we urged that a Socialist Government would deal with the political, economic and social conditions of the people. In the economic and political fields this Government are fulfilling their promises and doing the job well. In this matter of the National Service Bill there is retrogression. I appeal to the Government to think again about the whole matter. I shall, with a very sore heart, go into the Lobby against the Government tonight.
  5.33 p.m.
  Sir Hugh O'Neill: It is always a pleasure for a Member who has been in

  1883
  this Assembly for some time to congratulate a newcomer. I most heartily congratulate the hon. Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Butler) on his most admirable speech. He has shown a knowledge of his subject, a sincerity, and a conviction which we all admire. I thought I detected once or twice in the course of his speech a slight breath of sea air, which, no doubt, is due to his past association with the Royal Navy. I am sure that we shall always welcome his future interventions in our Debates, and we look forward to them.
  My object in intervening in this Debate is to express on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Parliamentary Party their strong dissent from the omission of Northern Ireland from the scope of this Measure. We feel that it ought to apply to the whole of the United Kingdom and it is our intention to move an Amendment to the Bill in Committee in order to bring this to pass. I hope that when the Minister of Defence replies to this Debate, he will be able to give the reasons why Northern Ireland is not included.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Would the right hon. Gentleman forgive me?
  Sir H. O'Neill: What, so soon?
  Mr. Silverman: I thought the right hon. Gentleman might tell the House why he thinks it necessary to move such an Amendment, now that the war is over, though he did not move it in 1939 or 1940.
  Sir H. O'Neill: If the hon. Member will be so good as to wait until I develop my argument, he will find that his question will be answered. The question of the application of compulsory military service to Ireland has a long history which I must bring to the recollection of the House in order that our attitude may be fully understood and appreciated. In the first world war the matter was raised several times. It was considered. Mr. Lloyd George wanted to bring it about but owing to the hostility of the anti-British elements in Ireland who were then in a majority, conscription was never applied. In the second world war the first Military Service Bill was introduced in May, 1939, and that applied to the whole of the United Kingdom.
  In Northern Ireland, this decision was accepted by the majority as perfectly
  1884
  natural and proper. It is my strong belief that if there had been no interference from outside, it would have been accepted by the minority, and applied without serious difficulty. Unfortunately, outside influences were brought into play and the Southern Irish leaders began to agitate. The Parliament in Dublin was specially summoned and Mr. de Valera, in the course of a speech, said that the proposal was an attempt by a foreign Government to conscript Irishmen to the British arms. Conferences took place between Mr. Neville Chamberlain, the then Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. The latter made it quite clear where he stood in this matter. At the same time, a statement was issued by the Ulster Members of this House to the effect that it was their unanimous opinion that no distinction should be made in the Bill between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
  The Government, however, capitulated to the Southern Irish clamour. In his speech on the Second Reading of the Bill, Mr. Neville Chamberlain announced that the Government would move an Amendment in Committee to exclude Northern Ireland from the Bill. That Amendment was duly moved. The Ulster Members challenged a Division and on 10th May, 1939, the Amendment was carried by 261 votes to 20, two Ulster Members acting as tellers for the minority. Perhaps that answers the point raised a short time ago by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). That, therefore, ended the matter so far as the first application of compulsory military service was concerned in the last war.
  Nothing happened for two years but in May, 1941, the matter was raised again. That was the time when the air bombing of our cities was at its peak. The whole of the country was subjected to attack, including the people of Ulster of all parties, sections and classes. They were all being mercilessly bombed. At that time, too, we were standing alone against our enemies. The manpower question was very acute and the Government were again considering the application of conscription to Northern Ireland. Discussions again took place. In reply to a Question in this House on 10th May, 1941, the then Prime Minister, the present Leader of the Opposition, said:
  "This question has for some time past engaged the attention of His Majesty's Govern-

  1885
  ment, and I hope to be in a position to make a statement about it on the first Sitting Day after this week."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th May, 1941; Vol. 371, C. 1390.]
  It is well known that a Bill was then actually drafted and that after discussion with the Northern Ireland Government it had been, decided to apply conscription there. But something happened after that statement by the then Prime Minister. I have no doubt that the Southern Irish leaders got busy again. I have never heard what happened. I have heard it suggested that all kinds of pressure were brought to bear upon the Government from these outside sources, including pressure via the United States. Whether or not that is true, I do not know, but the fact is that the Government again capitulated. When the Prime Minister made his statement to the House of Commons on 27th May, 1941, it was in the following terms:
  "I said a week ago that this matter had been engaging our attention. We have made a number of inquiries in various directions, with the result that we have come to the conclusion that at the present time, although there can be no dispute about our rights or about the merits, it would be more trouble than it is worth to enforce such a policy."
  When asked, in a supplementary question, whether it was not the opinion of the Government of Northern Ireland that conscription could, and should, be applied, the Prime Minister replied:
  "Yes, Sir. That was the view of the Government of Northern Ireland for whose loyal aid and continued and constant support of our cause no words of praise can be too high."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th May, 1941; Vol. 371, c. 1718.]
  That was said by the present Leader of the Opposition when he was leading this country at one of the most critical phases of the war. So much for the past history of this matter.
  We have now reached a stage where compulsory national service has to be adopted in peacetime. Why, in these circumstances, do we maintain that it should be applied to the whole of the United Kingdom? First, because if we must get men for the Fighting Services, it is the only fair way in which to get them. In his speech yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) made the point that if conscription was to be fair it must also be universal throughout the whole country.
  Mr. McGhee: Throughout the Empire.
  Sir H. O'Neill: Throughout the whole country. If it is universal it must be applied to the whole country. That is my argument. Why is it that the only objectors to conscription who have been allowed to have their way have been the Southern Irishmen? There are plenty of people in this House who do not like conscription—we have heard them express their views today—but if this Bill passes they have to lump it. Yet the people who make trouble from outside the United Kingdom are the only section of the population—
  Mr. Mulvey: If the Northern Ireland people are so loyal, why do they need conscription?
  Sir H. O'Neill: The people to whom I refer are, I say, the only section of the population whose wishes are to be carried out. A lot of nonsense is talked about voluntary service. People have said to me, "You Ulster men boast of your loyalty, so surely you can supply all the men required by voluntary enlistment?" My answer is that we cannot It is true that our part of the United Kingdom was formerly the best recruiting area—
  Mr. Mulvey: May I put a question to the right hon. Gentleman?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Is it a point of Order?
  Mr. Mulvey: It is a question. Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication to the House as to how conscription can be effectively enforced in Southern Ireland? Can he further explain to the House what measures would be necessary to keep the followers of his own party from absconding across the Border to avoid conscription? [Laughter.]
  Sir H. O'Neill: I am afraid I take this matter too seriously to feel inclined to allow it to develop into a laughing matter.
  Mr. Mulvey: Answer the point.
  Sir H. O'Neill: There always comes a time in voluntary service when the eager volunteers have all gone forward, and the others hold back for fear of losing their jobs to the men who stay at home.
  Mr. Mulvey: When conscription was threatened before—
  Hon. Members: Order.
  Sir H. O'Neill: If this were not so, conscription would never be necessary in any country. There is another reason which certainly affects my consideration of this question. However much some of us may oppose conscription in principle, it will be admitted almost on all sides that the training which these young men are to receive may prove in many respects advantageous to them. For example, they will learn discipline. Their outlook generally will certainly be broadened. Their physique will certainly be improved. It will promote comradeship and manliness among them. The Minister of Labour stated in introducing this Bill that he looked upon this calling-up for national service as a privilege, and I agree with him. Our people in Northern Ireland will be at a disadvantage as compared with their compatriots in the rest of the United Kingdom who will have these opportunities which they will not get. For the reasons I have given, I urge the Government to reconsider this matter. Their hesitation is of course due to the fact that they fear that conscription would be violently resisted by the anti-British minority in Ulster. Possibly they think that there would be passive resistance and that men might have to be sent to gaol—
  Mr. Mulvey: Your own members would resist it.
  Sir H. O'Neill: —or they may think that there might be riots. All the paraphernalia of rebellious opposition might be used. That is undoubtedly what the Government fear, but I do not believe that anything of the sort would take place. I have the authority of the Government of Northern Ireland to say that they are perfectly prepared to shoulder the burden and to play their part in applying national service within the territory over which they have control.
  Mr. Mulvey: Your arguments will deceive nobody.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Cocks: The right hon. Baronet the Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill) stated that he wants conscription extended to Northern Ireland. I should prefer to limit it to Northern Ireland and not to extend it to Britain. The right hon. Gentleman considered it a privilege, but it is a privilege we prefer not to have. The Labour Party has always been
  1888
  opposed to conscription in peacetime, and it is with some surprise that, after all these years, we find some Members of our Party suddenly coming to the conclusion that conscription is the most democratic way of raising an Army. I have never heard of such a sudden conversion since the days of Saul of Tarsus, and on that occasion only one man was converted and here is a change of heart on the part of a good many. I can only hope profoundly that the final result will be less painful to them than it was to him.
  We who oppose conscription accepted rather reluctantly its continuance to 1st January, 1949. It was a great shock to some of us when we heard that the Government proposed to continue it for another five years after that time, especially at a time when all our enemies have been scattered and Germany and Japan lie prostrate in the dust, when no country is in a position to fight us except our gallant and glorious allies, America and Russia, and when we need all our manpower to build up our industrial strength, to finance our social reforms and to save ourselves from bankruptcy in 1949 or 1950, if not before. We are short of manpower in every industry. The Minister of Labour stated the other day that we have not sufficient people to do all the things that need to be done and to produce all the goods required to be produced. I will give minimum figures. We need another 100,000 men in our mines; we need another 500,000 in our basic industries; presently we shall be losing from agriculture about 100,000 or more prisoners of war. This very day we have raised the school leaving age, and thousands of young people have been withdrawn from the labour market. We have been told that unless we can expand our exports by 75 per cent over the prewar volume before the loan runs out—and it is running out very rapidly—our standard of living will be drastically reduced. We shall have to cut down our imports of raw materials and food and we shall be faced by a financial crisis of the first order, and the more awful prospect still of another National Government.
  For some years now our birthrate has been falling. Just before the war there were 417,000 young people of 18 in this country. In 1950 that will have fallen to 295,000, and this Bill takes 210,000 of

  1889
  those out of industry. In the circumstances of this crisis, the idea of still having in a years' time over one million men in the Forces—there are far more now, of course—supplied by 350,000 men—[An HON. MEMBER: "Four hundred and fifty thousand."] I take the moderate figure of 350,000 given by the Minister of Defence—is absolutely folly and madness. It cannot be justified by any arguments at all, even if the Services are to fall automatically, as we were told last night, to 750,000 by 1st January, 1949. Even that is a burden far too heavy for us to bear.
  What are the reasons for the introduction of this Bill? We have been given three reasons—support of U.N.O.; our commitment, in various parts of the world; and the fact that we are no longer an island and shall have no breathing space in future to build up an Army if war breaks out, and must, therefore, have millions of trained reserves instantly ready to repel the long—range rockets and be dissolved in the frantic fury of the atomic bomb. I will take those three points in order. I do not like suggesting that any hon. Member talks humbug, but I find distinct traces of humbug in this talk about conscription under this Bill being necessary for the support of U.N.O. I have always understood that the system of collective security meant that national forces would be reduced and not expanded. When I am told to refer to Article 43, this is what I find. I am just quoting the essential words, though I have the full text here. This is what it says:
  "Members of the United Nations … undertake to make available to the Security Council, … in accordance with a special agreement or agreements, Armed Forces … necessary for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security…. Such agreements shall govern the numbers and types of forces … "
  No such agreement has yet been negotiated. It will be a very long time, I fear, before any of these agreements are negotiated. When such agreements are negotiated, then will be the time to decide what contribution we shall give to the Forces in defence of U.N.O., but not before then.
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: Is the hon. Gentleman now suggesting that until agreements have been come to between the nations as regards security under U.N.O. we should do nothing?
  Mr. Cocks: I am answering the argument that this Bill is necessary to carry out our obligations to U.N.O., and that only. I am not talking about the rest of the world or the ordinary process of self-defence, but about the suggestion that we are committed to carry out our obligations to U.N.O. The agreements have not been negotiated, and the time to decide our contribution is when they are negotiated. In any case, that is not an argument for conscription either now or then.
  As to our commitments, we do not know what they are. It is absolutely monstrous that this House should be asked to vote Estimates without being told where our troops or ships are stationed and in what numbers they are in different parts of the world. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I believe that if the public knew the size of the Forces we are keeping at the present moment in various parts of the world, there would be an instant demand for their reduction. That is possibly the real reason for this secrecy and the official reason that we have been given is not the real reason. That is the reason perhaps for the iron curtain which the Minister of Defence has dropped to conceal his proceedings.
  In any case, whatever the number is, it is far too large. I do not believe that we can afford, in 1949, to keep a highly equipped Army of more than 250,000 men, which is 30,000 more than we had before the war. That Army would, of course, be supported in this island by territorial forces and reserves. To bring the Regular Army up to a total of 250,000 would mean recruitment, at the present time, of 4,000 per month, but after we had reached the 250,000 it would mean a monthly recruitment of only 2,800. I do not believe that we could not raise, voluntarily, 2,800 per month, especially when the general calling up, which is now going on, ceases, and our present huge Army is reduced. In my view, an Army of a quarter of a million, well equipped, is all we can afford, and all we can provide.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) makes many valuable contributions to our Debates. He is an industrious Member, and he speaks with authority on Service matters, although he sometimes reminds me of a new curate adopting the pontifical attitude of an archbishop. My hon. Friend was good enough

  1891
  to say, last night, that the supporters of the Amendment knew nothing about military warfare, and that we were misguided. Naturally, then, we turn to him for guidance. He disclosed to us a profound mystery which has been concealed even from the Minister of Defence, who has said that even he does not know the shape of things to come. But my hon. Friend the Member for Aston knew. He told us why we need millions of trained reserves in this country, in these days of long-range warfare. He visualised the scene, in the next war, when the heavens would be filled with shouting, and there would descend on this fair island, not a ghastly dew, but thousands of ferocious paratroopers. He said that we should have to have a large Army, armed with bombs and bayonets, to kill these paratroopers as they fell. My hon. Friend so delighted the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) that the latter said that my hon. Friend's speech ought to have been delivered from the Government Front Bench, whereupon I noticed that the Secretary of State for War seemed rather uneasy. When I asked my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Wing-Commander Millington) what he thought of this apocalyptic vision of descending furies and paratroopers, he said, "Give me a few squadrons of fighter planes, and I would drown the whole lot in the sea long before they got to this country." My hon. and gallant Friend explained that in the last war a few squadrons of Whirlwinds destroyed, in a few minutes, two divisions of Germans in the air. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about Crete?"] The Secretary of State for War will now feel easier but I hope that the readers of a certain Sunday newspaper will not lose faith in their military critic.
  Then we come to the argument that we are no longer an island. Of course, we are not, but I ask the question which has been asked so many times during this Debate—whom are we going to fight? I am sure that Russia has no intention of attacking us, and I do not believe that she is in a position to do so if she wished. The Foreign Secretary has said that there is no conceivable reason why there should be any war between Britain and Russia. If it is suggested that we might have to support America in an attack on Russia, then I say, quite clearly, that the workers
  1892
  of this country would never support such an attack. I represent a mining constituency, and I am quite sure that the miners in my area would refuse to wind one ton of coal if such a situation occurred, and that the wives and daughters of the workers would refuse to make munitions. Any Government, Labour, Conservative or Coalition, which attempted such a project, would be swept from office within a week. If we want to be strong in the diplomatic field we must build up our industrial and economic power. Not by swollen Armies, but by productive pits and flourishing industries can our influence abroad be extended. The Foreign Secretary has said, "If only I had coal to offer to the world how much stronger my bargaining power would be." If we could export 20 million tons of coal to France today, it would be more welcome there than "an Army with banners," even although that Army were accompanied by my hon. Friend the Member for Aston and my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman).
  The White Paper has stated that "those things which are fundamental to our national life must come first." Well, the thing which is fundamental to our national life is our industrial prosperity. If we fail to produce we fail in everything and our Armies will be utterly useless. In this crisis we can only save ourselves by limiting our commitments to those which can be sustained by voluntary service, and by concentrating the whole of our remaining manpower on productive work. Otherwise we shall only be "ruining down the infinite inane." The Conservative Party are voting for this Bill tonight. We are voting against the Conservative Party. It is true that the Leader of the Opposition may be accompanied into the Division Lobby by certain Members of the Government, and certain of their supporters, but we shall take no notice of that. We shall not ask them where they have been and we shall welcome them wholeheartedly when they return. I do not take such a tragic view of this Bill as some of my hon. Friends, because it is possible that it will never be operated at all. It is possible that when 1949 comes the pressure of public opinion, and the pressure of economic crisis, may render the idea of compulsory service utterly unthinkable. In any case, I say that the great Labour majority we were given at the last Election was given us so that we

  1893
  could build up in this land a prosperous Socialist State, not to produce a nation of bankrupt conscripts, or, in peacetime, to rivet upon a free people the shackles of military conscription.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. Stamford: I very much welcome the opportunity of participating in this Debate, and as I know that there are still quite a number of Members who wish to speak, I propose to cut out all unnecessary preliminaries and come at once to the few points I want to make. That, I think, is a good rule to adopt in this House, and I would like to see it more generally followed, especially by those who sit on the Front Benches. Tonight, we are to be asked to make a very grave decision, perhaps the gravest decision of this Parliament. I confess that for my own part I have had a good deal of uneasiness of mind about this Bill since it was first mooted. That uneasiness has not been at all reduced by the fact that supporters of the Bill include the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), and others who support him on the opposite benches. I think that it is just as well to remember that it was the right hon. Gentleman who—
  Vice-Admiral Taylor: Won the war.
  Mr. Stamford: —in the early days, when these restrictions on liberty were being imposed, gave a pledge in this House that at the end of the war all those restrictions would be removed. Today, he is supporting the Bill.
  I listened with great interest, as I am sure did every other hon. Member, to the speech made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. I hoped to get from it some guidance towards assisting me to make a decision tonight, but I completely failed to do so; in fact, the disturbance of mind which I had before was increased by his speech. Speaking of the proposal to adopt conscription, my right hon. Friend declared that this was the most democratic way of raising the forces required. That has been said before, but it seemed strange to me, coming from the Minister of Labour. If that is true now it is true for the future. If it is true it only confirms the fear that was expressed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) earlier today, that this Bill means the permanent institution
  1894
  of conscription in this country. That is exactly what I fear; I believe that we are now being asked to give up the voluntary system, to give it up for good, and that this Bill represents a complete victory for the national service view. All my instincts are against conscription, but in this matter I have tried not to be guided by my instincts alone. I want to be fair to the Government. If the Government had been able to make a case that was convincing to my own reason on this matter, I would have been willing to support the Measure now before the House. I am not a pacifist. I have heard some talk here today, as I did yesterday, about the alleged absence of a mandate upon which the Government would be enabled to proceed with this Bill. I confess that does not influence me very much, because, in some matters, the Government have a permanent mandate.
  Surely, the first obligation of any Government, irrespective of their political complexion, is to ensure the security of this Realm. I believe that for that no new mandate need ever be sought. It is a fundamental duty of any Government, and the Government would fail in their first duty if they did not have regard to that necessity. So, personally, I am not much influenced by the fact that this issue has never been submitted to the country at a General Election. We cannot afford to gamble with the safety of the nation, and if it can be shown that—and the Government have had plenty of opportunity of doing so—this Measure is necessary in order to ensure the safety of these Islands, some of us, who have hesitated so far, would be prepared to support the Measure now before the House. This Bill is put forward on grounds of national security, but I think that it will be generally recognised that, at this stage of events, after the last great war, there is not a single nation anywhere today that is in a position to threaten the security of this country, nor—and I do not pretend to be a prophet—is there likely to be within any foreseeable time to come. Therefore, it seems to me that this Bill is advanced upon grounds on which it is not possible to state a convincing case on behalf of this Bill.
  There are two contentions, which have already been referred to in other speeches, which, I think, the Government ought to establish before we take a vote tonight.

  1895
  First of all, there is the contention that we need the large forces indicated in order to ensure our safety. I listened to the speech of the Minister of Labour yesterday. He set out by declaring that it was his intention to state the reasons why the Government sought the passage of this Bill. I thought that it was a singularly unconvincing speech. The Minister of Defence still has an opportunity to speak tonight. He will have the opportunity to persuade me to his point of view, but he will have to make a much more convincing speech than he made on the last occasion when he spoke to us on national defence. In this matter, I think that we all recognise that we are compelled to take a risk. In my view, the military risk is a small one, because, so far as one can see, there is no existing threat to the security of the people of these Islands. The military risk is a small risk; but the economic risk is a very great risk indeed. The country is being asked, under this Bill, to bear burdens far too heavy to be borne under conditions existing at the moment. So much for the first contention.
  The second contention which the Government have to seek to establish is that we cannot raise the necessary Forces without some measure of compulsion. I resist that contention. I do not accept it; I believe that the case for it is bad, and, personally, I reject it. There are two ways of getting men to serve. One is by compulsion, and the other is by attracting them by suitable inducements to serve. We have to make the choice. For some reason or other—for reasons which I think are generally understood by hon. Members in this House—the Army is not today a very popular form of service. I am not discussing thereasons for that, because I think that the reasons are pretty well known. But I am quite sure that what has been done up to now in the way of reform of Army conditions has been so little, and applied to such a small extent, that we cannot fairly say that we have established conditions good enough to attract a sufficient number into our military Forces. I think that the inducements have still to be raised. We have to remember the fact—we cannot escape it—that the Army today is in competition with highly-paid forms of labour outside. We cannot ignore that fact. I believe, myself, that if, as the argument runs, the Army is
  1896
  the most essential of all forms of service, that it ought to be the best paid, and have the best conditions, of all forms of service in this country.
  We have to have regard to the tact that standards are changing and rising, and we cannot expect to attract into the Armed Forces of the Crown a sufficient number of men, unless we not only recognise that fact, but frame our policy in accordance with it. Allusion has already been made in this Debate to the very acute shortage of manpower in every basic industry in this country. It is not only the Army who are short of men. Textiles are short of men; the mines are short of men; every basic industry is short of men—but, mark this, we do not propose to apply compulsion to any other service, outside the service of the Armed Forces. Why not? There is as good a case, in my view, in the present circumstances; but I guard myself by saying that I am not at all in favour of industrial compulsion. Today, in existing circumstances, there is as good a case for industrial compulsion as for military conscription. I am not at all sure that there is not an even better case. The right hon. Member for Woodford yesterday affected to see a great gulf fixed between military and industrial conscription. I believe that distinction is completely unreal. What is the logic of conscription? It is that every man should serve where the needs of the country require him, in any capacity, whatever it may be, provided the national interests require it. Any of my trade union colleagues on this side of the House who tonight intend to vote for this Bill, or any of them who are contemplating doing so, should, I think, do so with their eyes wide open to the industrial implications of their action, and recognise clearly where the logic of conscription must inevitably lead.
  There are a good many other things which I should like to say about this Bill, but time forbids. I conclude by saying that I have listened very earnestly so far to the case put for this Bill in this Debate. I have not been convinced by that case. I think that the case of the Government is a weak one. It is not a case that will induce me, at any rate, to vote for this Bill tonight. I am not voting against the Government. I do not propose to vote for the Amendment, but because my reason is not convinced of the necessity

  1897
  for this Measure, I shall certainly refrain from going into the Division Lobby on the Second Reading.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: The House has listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for West Leeds (Mr. Stamford) who has explained to us with great clarity the reasons why he is unable to take a stand either for or against the Bill. I think that probably most people in this House approach the decision to be taken tonight, with a certain amount of difficulty and hesitation. I exempt from that, of course, the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) and his followers. He has told us that the whole of his band in this House are united in the stand they are taking, and definite in their views. If he has had no difficulty among the Liberal Party in the House of Commons, he cannot say there is the same unity of belief in the Liberal Party throughout the country. If he were to say that, he would show that he had not done, what every good Liberal ought to do every morning, and that is to read the "News Chronicle." If he had read the "News Chronicle" this morning, he would have noticed a leader which stated that:
  "It is apparent, for instance, that within the Liberal Party all do not think alike on this issue. Parliamentary Liberals are to oppose outright the Government's Conscription Bill. Yet the recent draft statement of Liberal policy, which is to be submitted to the Party Assembly, while regarding conscription as undesirable as a permanent institution goes on to say that, 'the existing situation clearly makes a continuation of the war-time Measure obligatory'."
  We, no doubt, on our side of the House, could, if we liked, have also made our decision an easy one. I noticed that my Sunday paper, last Sunday, was full of the events of what was described as the biggest sporting day of the year. The semifinals of the Cup, the Grand National, the Boat Race, and a speech by the Attorney-General. This speech was full of bitter complaint against the Tory Party. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite, surely, have learned by now never to applaud any statement by the Attorney-General, without waiting, not only for the end of the speech, but for the apology that comes after it. He accuses us of putting party advantage before national interest, and of being prepared to exploit the country's difficulties in order to incon-
  1898
  venience the Socialist Government. It is fair to say that he did not only deal in generalities. He cited a grave charge in support of his views. He said that we have encouraged people to grumble against the blessings which that benevolent bunch on the Front Bench opposite are continually bestowing upon us. If that were true, it would be a grave charge, but, of course, like most of the Attorney-General's charges, it is untrue.
  If it were true and if, in fact, we thought nothing but of our party advantage and if we were prepared to subordinate the national interests to them, what a glorious opportunity we should be having this evening. If we chose to oppose this Bill tonight we should not be causing the party opposite only some petty annoyance. We should be inflicting upon it a first-class Parliamentary defeat, and as I speak from this Box we would be looking on many of the faces opposite for the last time—an aesthetic loss but one that could be fully compensated for by the political advantages. No doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer as he goes into the Lobby tonight will do so with a song in his heart, and as he looks on his followers so soon to be reduced the song may well prove to be, "Will ye no' come back again?" But what the Attorney-General said about this party on Saturday is going to be proved wrong on Tuesday. That is unusually quick, even to disprove a statement by the Attorney-General, and I hope, therefore, that tonight when he and I go through the same Lobby—because we shall be tonight what I think is technically called "fellow travelers"—he will favour us with one of those felicitous apologies for which, if for nothing else, he has during the last year gained such reputation.
  We are going to take on this occasion what is, politically at any rate, the hard course. We are going to divide on this Bill as we think it to be in the national interest and not to our party advantage, and we or at any rate the great majority of us intend to support the Bill. It is not a very pleasant decision for anyone to have to take. There cannot be anybody in any party on any side of the House who likes conscription in peacetime or the consequences that it entails. At the best, it is as was described by an hon. Member opposite in the Debate yesterday a reluctant necessity.

  1899
  I was very interested yesterday in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg). I listened to the whole of it, I read it again this morning and I hope I am not doing the hon. Member an injustice if I say he spoke in favour of the Bill, but curiously enough most of his speech was devoted to a condemnation of my hon. Friends on this side of the House for supporting the Bill, and what remained was a condemnation of the Liberal Party for opposing it. The hon. and gallant Member's chief reason against us was he said that we had been in favour of conscription for 40 years. Even if he is right, I do not see why that would make it wrong for us to vote in favour of it tonight. There is nothing fundamentally wrong in sticking to an opinion for a long time. However, the hon. and gallant Member has only been in the House a short time and he may have been misled by his experiences. I can assure him that only recently has it been considered shameful to maintain after the Election the same themes as one propounded before it. There are many earlier and most respectable precedents in favour of saying the same thing, both before and after appealing to the electors.
  As a matter of fact, the hon. and gallant Member was wrong. Conscription has not been a part of the Conservative policy for 40 years. It has never figured in our programme. With regard to the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery that if it was not in our programme or speeches or policy it was in our heart of hearts, I would reply: Is not that rather a dangerous argument to put forward? It is, of course, an easy line to take. If one's opponent does not say things to prove one's case it is open to one to say that a certain view is still held by him in his heart of hearts. It is, of course, an argument that several people can use. It would be quite possible, although I would not dream of saying so, to say that "in their heart of hearts" the Liberal Party really believe that conscription is necessary. I should have just as much evidence to give in support of that, as there is in support of the charge which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has brought against us. But it has not been our programme for 40 years. It is not something which we have looked forward
  1900
  to, something we have worked for, or something that we welcome.
  We recognise just as well as anybody in this House the hardship and the losses which a policy of this kind is bound to entail. We see the results upon the individual, and we see the results upon the economy of the State. We wish that we could go back to the days in which the Liberal Party was triumphant—and in which to a large extent they still live—when it was unnecessary to bring forward a Measure of this kind. I certainly do not think that a period of service in the Armed Forces is something that is bound to do irreparable harm to a young man who has to undergo it. I think it is an experience from which, as all Members of the House who served in the Armed Forces would agree, a great amount of good can be drawn by an individual. But it would be equally foolish to argue that there is some full educational recompense to counterbalance the disadvantages to the individual in the Service. Therefore, if we support this Bill tonight it is for no love of the Measure itself. It is because we fully admit that though grave difficulties, loss and injuries will be brought about by it, there are still graver consequences on the other side.
  During this Debate the opposition to this Measure has been fully expressed. Hon. Members have supported it from many different angles, but in the end all roads seem to lead to the "No" Lobby. I am not going to deal with some of the more exotic criticisms of this Measure. An hon. Lady who spoke yesterday objected to the Bill because it did not extend to women. She said that it was placing women, most unfairly, amongst the unprivileged. I am sympathetic with feminism, but I really think there is a point when feminism, merges into folly. But there have been certain broad principles of objection to this Bill on which I wish to say a few words. In the first place, there are those who are genuine objectors to compulsory military service on conscientious grounds. They have opposed conscription in peace and war. They have opposed conscription, whether it has been brought in by a Tory Government or a Labour Government; they have opposed it whether their position was popular or unpopular; and they have been prepared, in some cases, to pay heavily, politically speaking, for their opposition.

  1901
  For those people, I and I think everyone in the House has very sincere respect even if we cannot agree with then judgment. To them, I only say this that to my mind the only reason why they are still able to urge in this House views of that kind is because on two occasions the majority of the people of this country have taken a different view.
  I understand their point of view, but I cannot understand those people who, while prepared to admit that compulsory service may be morally right in wartime, are also prepared to insist that it is morally wrong in peace. I can see the difference between conscription in peace and conscription in war. I can see the difference in the weight of the argument and I can see the argument that the burden is far more onerous in peace while the reasons for it are less obvious and that the alternative course appears more promising and more possible. But I cannot see the difference between the two on the question of ethics. I cannot see that it is right to do it, as long as it may be too late and wrong to do it if it is done in time to avert danger or disaster.
  There was another group who did not object to conscription in itself, but as we were told objected to conscription in support of a foreign policy with which they did not agree. The most prominent exponent of that particular theory was the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus). I noticed one hon. Member opposite in a speech yesterday tried to dissuade the hon. Member from his course by the threat that, if and when the hon. Member for Gateshead became Foreign Secretary, he might be reminded of the attitude he was now taking. That was ineffective, largely, I think, because the hon. Member for Gateshead realises that under any Government of which he is likely to be a member, the opportunities for reminding Ministers of previous inconvenient statements will be limited and the results will be discouraging—painfully so. I regard the doctrine advanced by the hon. Member as a most dangerous doctrine. If you are to oppose conscription because you disagree with the foreign policy of the Government, why stop there? Why not oppose all armed forces of any kind? Indeed, such a policy would be much more logical and it would be no more dangerous, because to my mind there is only one thing worse than
  1902
  a bad foreign policy which is strongly supported and that is a bad foreign policy which is weakly supported. The first may possibly lead to war; the second will lead inevitably to defeat. I will say no more upon that particular branch of the objectors because it has been dealt with very effectively by the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman). His reproof must have been felt far more strongly by the hon. Member for Gateshead and his friends than anything I could say. He and the hon. Member for East Coventry were, so recently, in close juxtaposition, both politically and, indeed, in those days, physically. Both literally and figuratively it appears to us, looking from this side of the House, that during the last few months the hon. Member for East Coventry has made a considerable movement to the Right.
  Now I come to that third class of opponents of this Bill who I think have been much the most formidable in this Debate, and for whom I myself have most sympathy. They are the people who, however much they may dislike a measure of conscription, are prepared to accept it, if they are convinced that it is necessary and practicable, and if they are shown, as they are entitled to be shown, that the objects for which this Measure is asked are reasonable, and that this is the only practicable way of obtaining the numbers that are required. That group—which, I think, includes most of us in this House—want and are entitled to have an answer to certain very important questions. We are entitled to know in some detail what are the strategic requirements of this country during the period to be covered by this Bill. We are entitled to know how those requirements are affected in terms of manpower, weapons and tactics by the latest developments in the science of war. We are entitled to know whether all other means of meeting these necessities has been fully exploited, and whether conscription will give us not only the numbers that are required but the type and composition of the forces that are necessary.
  Those are formidable questions, and in a Debate of this kind they deserve a detailed answer. It is our complaint that the Debate has been so arranged that no attempt has been made or will be made to answer those questions until the

  1903
  eleventh hour tonight. This Debate was opened by the Minister of Labour. He gave an admirable exposition of the contents of this Bill. By the way, I disagree with an hon. Friend of mine who charged the Minister of Labour with reading. On several occasions I noticed him lifting his head and taking his eyes off the script, and I must warn him that if he goes on like that, he will run a very great risk of being regarded as a "scab" by his more conventional colleagues.
  I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not pretend that he attempted during his speech to deal with the kind of questions to which I have been referring, and which, incidentally, have entered into nine-tenths of all the speeches delivered up to now. His contribution was clearly one that had to be made, and he explained with great clarity important points in the Bill. He dealt with the position of conscientious objectors, claims for reinstatement, and the machinery for postponement, but it is not on questions of that kind that support of or opposition to the Second reading of this Bill will be built. By and large, I think most people, if they were convinced of the necessity of the Measure at all, are prepared to accept a Bill of this kind, and what the House really needs is some authoritative statement upon the real questions which are agitating it. So far the only contribution we have had on questions of higher strategic importance has been a discussion between the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) and Captain Liddell Hart, appearing by kind permission of the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mrs. Paton). It was a plucky bout, in which the hon. Member for Aston fought himself to a standstill, but it is no substitute for the kind of argument to which this House is entitled.
  I wish the Minister of Defence had found it possible to open the Debate. Not so long ago, I heard him speaking on the subject of finance. I thought then that he had better stick to defence. I regret that through illness I was unable to listen to the speech he made last week on defence, but I read it all through and I began to think that I was wrong. But at any rate the right hon. Gentleman could have given us some lead. He could have obtained from the same organisation that on the other occasion, supplied him with his roneoed impromptus about the Tory
  1904
  Party some considered judgment on the military future. To this side, at any rate, it would have been comparatively new. I realise that he has been making the same speech at gatherings on many occasions, but he must remember that though the reports of those gatherings are as accurate as and much more prompt than the OFFICIAL REPORT, they are not nearly so detailed, and much of what he had to say would have been of novelty and interest to us.
  But even if the Minister of Defence was unable to open the Debate—if he feels that, like modern generals, he must lead his troops from the rear—would it not have been possible for one of the Defence Ministers, at any rate, to have taken part earlier? They have from time to time been in the House—at any rate we have seen enough of them to convince us that they are at least in London. Yet not one of those whom, I am afraid, the irreverent describe as "Alexander's Ragtime Band", has spoken. There is one point upon which the Secretary of State for Air could have spoken with great authority. A great deal of genuine apprehension has been expressed in the House as to the compatibility of this Measure with our obligations and objects under the United Nations organisation. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Air is a great expert on world organisation. He was an expert on the League of Nations, and he is already a great expert on the United Nations; and it would have been an authoritative pronouncement coming from him had he been able to indicate that support of this Bill was in no way inconsistent with support of the United Nations.
  We might have had the Secretary of State for War—a more recent convert to the doctrine of conscription. As such, an account of his process of conversion would have been acceptable to the House. He could have told us—and it would have had a very great effect upon us all—what hard facts and what inescapable arguments changed the Bourbon of Blackpool into the Moltke of Whitehall.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Bellenger): The right hon. Gentleman has made that allegation against me before. I do not know whether he has an official copy of what I said at Blackpool, but if he has, and will do me the honour of reading it, he will find that I have been most consistent in this matter. Indeed, I

  1905
  said at Blackpool that a new National Service Act would be necessary after the war, and the Foreign Secretary referred to that in his reply at Blackpool.
  Mr. Stanley: I must accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement and apologise to the House that I have been misled by what I believed to be a perfect extract from the speech he made. As soon as I get back I will look up the whole speech. This extract reads as follows:
  "Are we going to have a continuation of compulsory military conscription? I say that if that is the policy the Labour Party, and especially the trade unions, will never tolerate it. It will result in the lowering of wage standards and labour conditions in industry."
  Mr. Bellenger: Perhaps the right hon Gentleman will allow me to give a somewhat fuller extract? This is what I said:
  "Are we going to have a continuation of compulsory military conscription? I hope that Mr. Bevin will give an indication of our long term policy on this issue. Although we recognise that the short term policy will necessitate some continuation of national service for a limited period"—
  for which this Bill provides—
  Mr. James Hudson: No.
  Mr. Bellenger: The quotation continues:
  —"are we going to have compulsion in our national affairs ostensibly to achieve a national aim?"
  Mr. Stanley: I am perfectly prepared to leave that explanation to the House. I certainly thought that the temporary extension was the extension that the Government already had, and prolonging it for the period of this Bill did certainly appear to me to be some change of policy. Apparently, however, I am wrong and this is exactly the policy which was put to the Conference at Blackpool and accepted by the Labour Party. I, therefore, apologise unreservedly to the right hon. Gentleman.
  I want to put to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence certain specific questions, in the hope that he will answer them when he winds up the Debate. The first is in regard to the strategic commitments of this country, and the requirements in personnel which will be necessary to carry them out. In ordinary circumstances, I should have had little doubt that the numbers asked for and the numbers procured by this Measure will be fully justified by the obvious commitments. But there is a
  1906
  doubt which, I think, is in the minds of many hon. Members, and that is about the effect of new weapons upon all that the ordinary man thinks and knows about strategic requirements and the necessities of defence. We are told, in many quarters, that the Services which we have long considered essential are now as inadequate and as useless as the archers, pikemen and charioteers of the past. That is a point on which we are surely entitled to some more definite pronouncement by the Government. My belief is that the effect of new weapons is not to abolish all the old methods and requirements of defence. I remember being told in the old days, before the last war, that the advent of air power had made the Army useless, and that the advent of armoured fighting vehicles had made infantry superfluous. Neither of these statements proved to be correct. I still think that it does not mean the abolition of all their functions, although it does mean their roles are altered and their emphasis changed.
  That, surely, is something which Members cannot be asked to decide themselves on the very scanty information which they can obtain. It should be a subject on which the Government are prepared to give the frankest and fullest information. We see, of course, the necessity for some restraint in this matter, but there is a danger of too great an insistence on secrecy, which leaves an impression, not that there is a plan which must not be disclosed, but that all the secrecy conceals is a failure to think out the implications of the new weapons.
  I agree with many hon. Members on the other side who have given reasons why they believe it is possible, if we accept these numbers, to attain them by voluntary means. We are told, "Increase the attractions," but those who put forward this policy have never told us to what extent we have to increase them before they have the result we desire. To expect any services, in the order of the magnitude contemplated under the Government's policy to be attained by voluntary recruitment, is wishful thinking. We are very concerned, granted that this policy of conscription will give the numbers that are required, whether it will give us exactly what we want for defence. Mere numbers do not, in themselves, constitute a satisfactory defence.

  1907
  The main object, I take it, of this conscription policy is to provide us in the future with adequate reserves. I was at the War Office in the early days of the war, and without any running down of an admirable Service which performed great work, I agree with those who say that under conditions of modern warfare and the difficulty of its technique, the prewar Territorial training is not sufficient and cannot be sufficient to provide fully trained reserves at the outbreak of war. I am not saying it may not be possible in certain directions, but speaking generally, of the Territorial Army as a whole, the amount of time men could afford to take from their ordinary civilian occupations, did not give them a real chance to learn the intricacies of the modern technique. For that reason, I agree that something has to be found to supplement the prewar Territorial Army system.
  Wing-Commander Millington: Would the right hon. Gentleman say, from his experience, that the conduct of the Territorial soldier in France at the beginning of the war was as good as, or better, or worse than the conduct of the militia, which, I believe, behaved badly?
  Mr. Stanley: I would not for one moment start to draw comparisons about anyone's behaviour. In any case, it is quite irrelevant, because the militia was started two months before the beginning of the war, and no one considered it was possible by the time the war came, that they could be trained. What I am discussing is whether a force which has been in existence for many years, the members of which have given themselves wholeheartedly to their training, could, in fact, have been fully trained, or could have been capable of acting as a fully trained force when the war started. As I say, some new system has to be found to supplement the Territorial system. The advantage of the system put forward is obvious. If a man has had a year and a half of continuous training, then the ordinary Territorial training imposed on that, will keep him up to date, and will make him a fully trained reserve. But that depends on one thing. It depends on the basic training of one and a half years and the subsequent training in the Territorial reserve being in the same arm of the Service. Can we be assured that
  1908
  that is going to happen? Take the case of anti-aircraft defence, on which great importance is placed. Are the people in the reserve as anti-aircraft gunners, who are expected to play an important role on the immediate outbreak of war, the same people who have spent one and a half years of their training in the Army in anti-aircraft gunnery? Unless they are, it is clear that this proposal has little if any advantage over the old Territorial system.
  Finally, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us the assurance which has been asked for from all sides, that proper use is now being made of the manpower the Services already have. Unless we are certain of that, we are reluctant to give them more in the future. There cannot be any Member of this House who has not heard, in his constituency or elsewhere, stories which seem to point to a considerable waste of time among those now included in the Services. Rightly or wrongly, these stories have raised general disquiet, and I suggest that that disquiet must be allayed. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), speaking yesterday, suggested one way. He suggested the possibility of some kind of Parliamentary committee. What does the right hon. Gentleman think about that? If, for some reason or other, he thinks that that is not a course which he can accept, what alternative has he to offer, because I am certain that this widespread disquiet has got to be allayed?
  During the Committee stage we shall, of course, deal with many details in the Bill—the choice of Services which will be open to the men called up, whether the conscientious objector gets an advantage over the man who is called up, and so on. We shall want to know whether it may not be necessary to have some tapering-off at the end, just as there is a tapering-off of the pre-Bill conscription in order to get fairness all round. Finally, we shall want to know what opportunities will be given during the one and a half years' service for men to qualify for commissions subsequently in the Reserve. These, and other similar questions, have been put by hon. Members on all sides of the House during the whole of this Debate, and we are, I think, entitled to expect answers to them tonight. Perhaps "expect" is the wrong word, because it indicates a certain amount of confidence, but at all events we hope to get answers tonight.

  1909
  I think we are entitled to have the information. We are prepared to support this Bill, but we feel that we ought to have the full material upon which the Government which have proposed it have come to their conclusions. These matters are so important that they ought not to be decided merely on Ministerial command, or indeed on personal investigation by private Members. We ought to have the fullest information on which to make up our minds, and I therefore hope that the Minister of Defence this evening will break his usual policy of wordy silence, and give us the whole of the facts, so that we may go into the Lobby tonight not only believing, but knowing, that we are right.
  7.11 p.m.
  Mr. Scollan: I am very pleased to have the opportunity of following the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley), whose speech I enjoyed very thoroughly. With many of his points I agree, but I cannot understand the line of reasoning he took when he congratulated the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) on having gone over to the Right. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman paid very great attention to the hon. Member for East Coventry, or he would have discovered that he had gone so far to the Left that he had now arrived at the Right. As a matter of fact the whole of his speech was one series of cycles and somersaults from beginning to end, until ultimately I have not the slightest doubt that he befogged not only the whole of the House, but himself as well.
  There were some people who, like myself, opposed this proposal by the Government in the Debate on the King's Speech. I then said that the Government were being guided by the military brass hats; not by the knowledge they themselves had of the situation, but by blind faith, they had to accept something they did not understand. I have watched that process, I have seen it going on, and this is not the only Government which is in the toils of the military service chiefs; there is another far stronger and far greater country at the moment than ours which has also succumbed to the military service chiefs. One of the arguments used against us was that, at the beginning of this Parliament's life, we voted for the continuation of the Service Acts. It is perfectly true that we did, but why? It was
  1910
  to give the Government the ordinary and reasonable time to organise the Services. There is no objection to that. There is no objection even on the part of the greatest pacifists in the House today to giving them time to organise the Services. That, however, is not what they are asking for; they are asking that we should accept the principle of conscript military service as a permanent institution in this country. I was very pleased to hear the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) draw the attention of the House to the fact that he was leading his party into the Lobby with the Government to vote for the principle; there was no mistake about it, they were not voting, for an expediency, they were voting for the principle.
  With regard to the point made by several hon. Members, including the right hon. Member for West Bristol, about the wastage of manpower in the Services, many times hon. Members in the House have listened to charges of wastage of manpower in the Services and denials from the Front Bench and then, after it had gone on for a considerable time, particularly on the Debate on the White Paper, the Minister of Defence conceded that an inquiry would be held. My conception of a Minister who understands his job and has a thorough grasp of the whole of the Department under his control is that his knowledge will be sufficient to enable him to know whether he has lost control and the job has got on top of him, or whether he still has control and is on top of the job. If he has lost control and the job has got on top of him, he will concede that somebody may inquire into it and find out what is wrong, so I think I am entitled to assume that the confession by the Minister of Defence would make anyone chary of supporting a further call for the conscription of the youth of the nation.
  Take the Debate which took place on 18th November on military service, when the Chancellor was put up—and, by the way, I have noticed that the Chancellor is very conspicuous in this Debate by his absence; I think the unhappy experience he had on that occasion has frightened him off. On that occasion he told the hon. Member for the Welsh Universities (Professor Gruffydd) very definitely that there would be no favoured classes in this particular Bill, and the hon. Member for the Welsh Universities interrupted him to say that he had not said there would be

  1911
  favoured classes, but that the economic situation of the country would create a position in which people such as the miners would be favoured. The Chancellor of the Exchequer immediately said that there would be no favoured classes, neither the miners, nor the railwaymen, nor the university teachers. But when the Bill is brought in, it is evident that either the Chancellor who spoke on behalf of the Government did not know his brief, or that the Government did not know the position and have changed their minds. Later, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he was corrected by another hon. Member with regard to the long-term policy of conscription, said:
  "I do not ask to see
  The distant scene, one step enough for me."
  That is the policy of the Government. The whole of the Debate—the whole of the criticism from the other side and from this side—is justified in showing that not a single constructive proposal has been put forward apart from the bare outline, "Give us conscription." We have not been told why we want conscription. If we look at the commitments in the White Paper on Defence—and this is one of the arguments used by some of the supporters—we find that they are confined to three: first, Western Europe; second, the Middle East and the Mediterranean; and third, other areas. Those are our commitments. Are those the commitments for which we require conscription? This is a most extraordinary document; when we say that those are our commitments, we are told, "Ah, but there are commitments that we do not yet know." I am very concerned about the commitments of which we do not know. Some time ago the military chiefs, with the consent of the Government came to an agreement with the military chiefs of the the United States—we have not had a White Paper on that agreement—according to which the Air Force of the United States and the Air Force of this country would exchange training periods and personnel. We have not been told about that. I wonder if there were any other agreements about which we have not been told? I wonder whether there is any agreement that we will supply the 'necessary men and the necessary strategic positions, and they will supply the dollars? Have we sold the youth of the nation for the dollars of the United States, that we cannot get
  1912
  in any other way, or have we joined the holy alliance that is now being proclaimed in the war against Communism and Russia? The most disturbing feature of the whole of this matter is that it coincides with the campaign raging in the United States that offence against Communism is the best defence against it. It is very disturbing when one hears important people, like the President, proclaiming a policy which, in ordinary prewar times, would have been tantamount to a declaration of war; it is very disturbing to find that our Government's policy is designed to coincide with that to such an extent that we are charged with being an ally in a secret alliance. I hope that whoever is to reply to the Debate from the Government Front Bench will give us some information on that. Are we a party to this holy alliance? Are we to supply the men and the strategic bases, and they the money? The United States dare not bring in conscription in their own country. Why should they, if they can bring it into being in a debtor nation? [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) wishes to say something, will he rise and not mutter under his breath?
  Mr. Pickthorn: I am sorry if I spoke a little too loudly or not quite loudly enough. I was wondering whether the hon. Member thought that the United States had also introduced Socialism into this country.
  Mr. Scollan: One of the things that is rather amusing, although it is tragic, is that the Americans hate this Socialist Government almost as badly as they hate Russia. People must think about that. Our friends on the Government Front Bench seem to have some kind of idea that they can play with fire between Russia and the United States and come out without being burned.
  Sir William Darling: It is, at any rate, some kind of idea.
  Mr. Scollan: I do not think they can. I am not, and never was, pro-Russian. Nor am I pro-American. I am pro-British. I want to see this country build up its industries to such an extent that, with the manpower, we can stand on our own legs and not jump on to anybody's bandwaggon to be on the winning side. Let us make no mistake about it—if a

  1913
  clash comes between America and Russia, we shall be in a very awkward position, because there will be a section of our people, including hon. Members opposite, advocating that we get on to the American wagon, and there will be a section on this side advocating that we get on to the Russian wagon. Therefore, it behoves us not to bring in conscription to divide the country at a time like this and on a question like this. It behoves us to show the people of this country that we are determined to build up the economy of this country so that we can stand on our own legs.
  One point that I intended to deal with has already been discussed, but I still want to emphasise it. When there is any emergency, we take it that the Government are justified in conscripting manpower and wealth to meet that emergency. What will be the emergency that will face this country tomorrow? Is it an emergency that calls for military action, or is it an emergency that calls for industrial action? I wonder whether the people on the Government Front Bench are afraid to go to the trade union movement and say, "The only section of the working population of the country that is defenceless against the Government are the youths from 18 to 19½ years, and we will conscript them, because if we were to conscript the members of your unions to do the necessary work where it is wanted, you would fight us, and down would come the Government." Is not that the situation? Why not face the issue? I ask the Front Bench, why not go to the Trades Union Congress and say that it is not military conscription that we need, but that what we need is to enrol the manpower of the country to do the work that has to be done? You cannot shift the pits to the unemployed. You must take the unemployed to the coalpits. You cannot shift the industries of the nation at a moment's notice to the unemployed.
  Sir W. Darling: Who is "you"?
  Mr. Scollan: The Government. I hope the hon. Gentleman did not think I was referring to him. I always address the Chair, but on this occasion the word "you" meant the Government, just as we were told in Committee once that the word "may" means "shall." I ask the Government, why not face up to the situation? Why accept blindly what the
  1914
  brasshats have told them? They say, "We must have conscription, we must have more men." Every Debate in the House has proved that they could not utilise the services of the men they have already. We receive letter after letter showing that. I had a letter only this morning from a man about the time that was wasted and the stuff that was being disgracefully stolen in one of the navaldepôts. [An HON. MEMBER: "Socialism."] No, private enterprise. Not a single argument has been adduced by the Government in favour of this Bill. I know that on this side of the House they have a phalanx of solidly loyal supporters. There is no question about that. They have unquestioned supporters; but at the same time, in this great Labour movement of ours, there is a solid Socialist section that never takes anything without question, that would not accept anything from any leader without question, and is prepared to examine the whole case on its merits, and on the merits of the case, up to the moment, the Government are cutting a very sorry figure. I am sorry I have to go into the Lobby against them. There is no question about it—this is the beginning of a real crack in the Parliamentary Labour Party. Do not make any mistake about it. [Interruption.] I am not cheering up the Tories; I am facing the facts. It is no use hiding one's head in the sand and saying, "This thing will pass over and blow away like the wind of today or tomorrow." It will not. What the Government are doing now is to place in the minds of their supporters up and down the country a lack of faith in the Government, a lack of faith in the Government's ability to grasp the situation and handle it properly.
  Sir W. Darling: Do not blame them.
  Mr. Scollan: I do not blame them.
  Mr. Tolley: Why emphasise it?
  Mr. Scollan: For the simple reason that it is necessary to do so for people like the hon. Member who support the Government blindly. Sops have been thrown out to us. I have received several hints that if we were to ask for the period to be reduced for a year, we might get it reduced. [Interruption.] It was put again today, and it was not denied. Again, if we asked that it should be put into operation for three years, it might be conceded.

  1915
  But the principle is the same, and on that principle I shall vote against the Government and try to forget about the sorry spectacle they have cut in the whole of this Debate.
  7.30 p.m.
  Mr. J. L. Williams: I hope to observe the good old rule in this House of not speaking too long, if only for one reason, that most of what I had intended to say has been said already, and said much better, by other hon. Members. I hope my hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrew (Mr. Scollan) will forgive me—in fact he has been forgiving me quite a lot for many years—if I do not follow him closely, especially in regard to his dispute with the Front Bench, because I know the Minister of Defence can deal with that much better. I would like to say why I oppose this Amendment. I quite agree that some of the arguments put forward have a certain amount of weight. I would certainly apply that to the fear that conscription is being introduced as an instrument for bringing to the Armed Forces a much greater number of men than we really need, and a much greater number than we can now afford. At the same time, the traditional arguments against conscription would seem, in this Debate, to have been more futile than ever. We have heard a great deal of concern from hon. Members about democracy, international understanding, human rights and, lastly, Socialism. I do not think that any of those things belong to one side of the Debate, and I cannot see how these principles are always safeguarded by voluntary service and violated by compulsory service.
  Mention has been made in this Debate by several hon. Members of the name of Keir Hardie. It has become quite a fashion to bring the name of Keir Hardie into a discussion to substantiate whatever a speaker wishes to put forward. I knew Keir Hardie as well as any youth of my generation could know him, and even with that advantage I would not enter into a guessing competition as to what Keir Hardie would have done in the circumstances of 1947, facing a situation like the present one. How are we to guess what would be the views of the present situation of a man who died away back in 1915? And when I noted this habit spreading to the Conservative side, I felt like taking
  1916
  sympathy with the Liberal Party, and saying that what Keir Hardie said in 1910, about compulsory service in 1947, was nearly as useless as what Gladstone said in 1885. These things are not all on one side. When I hear Keir Hardie quoted in this connection I also think of Robert Blatchford, a man who' is equally responsible for having brought a Labour Government into this House. He held views that were quite different. When I hear hon. Members telling us that this Bill violates principles of international Socialism and when it is asserted so dogmatically, I wonder why the Socialist parties on the Continent are not more enthusiastic about voluntary service; indeed many of the European Socialists I have met regard voluntary armies as potentially Fascist armies.
  From the Liberal Benches, we have been told in this Debate, as before, that the Bill infringes human freedom and the rights of personalities. This view illustrates to me the one-sided conception of liberty which we have always associated with the Liberal Party. I well remember a Conscription Bill being brought in by a Liberal Prime Minister for the first time in almost 100 years—in time of war I admit, and much against his will I believe. Nevertheless, it is true that Mr. Asquith up to 1914 had built up his Army much in the same way as Liberal and Tory Prime Ministers had done before for nearly 100 years, in a way which was described in this House by several hon. Members, as "with the aid of Colonel Economics." People were driven into the Army, we have been told, by the force of hunger, and if that is all the Liberal Party can offer us, as an example of the liberty of the subject, I must take the same stand as I took many years ago, of keeping quite clear of that point of view.
  I know that the Liberal Party today, along with hon. Members on this side, have put forward a more advanced view and I believe that nearly every hon. Member in this House thinks that conditions of pay and service in the Armed Forces should be made equal to those in industry. So far so good. I do not think there is any disagreement on that point, but I would like to go further and say that I do not think it is enough to leave it at that point. What about the man whose pay is twice the average wage in

  1917
  industry? What about the man who has been lucky enough, educated well enough and trained well enough to get a salary that is twice, three, four or perhaps six times the average wage in industry? Where is the attraction for him? Where is the incentive for him to join the Army if conditions are only being made attractive for the man with the average or good wage in industry? Will there be a privileged class of high-salaried people protected by a voluntary system from military service, while those around a certain level of income only are to do more than their share? I hope this House will condone nothing of the kind.
  The real questions with which we are laced in this Debate are: do we need such large numbers of young men under arms as we propose in this Bill? Can we afford such a strain upon our manpower? The first question is difficult for the layman, though quite a number of hon. Members have answered it. There is a great deal being said about the possibilities of the atomic bomb. I may be slightly biased, because I listened so much some years ago to those authorities, military and pacifist, who explained in how many minutes or seconds it would take a great city to be wiped out by bombing from the air. About the drain on manpower, the layman can form a better opinion. We must concentrate, as hon. Members have pointed out, upon the gigantic task of rebuilding the economic life of the nation; we want to re-equip our industries, we want to make more consumer goods available for our people. There are problems of providing more food and more coal. Can we really do this job with more than a million men locked up in these Services? These problems will go on after the passage of this Bill, and I suggest that these points remain for the Government to keep in mind.
  I bully appreciate this problem. I still get letters from soldiers and airmen telling me how manpower is wasted in those Services, and how men of training and skill have to perform menial tasks. It is quite true that the people do not trust the generals in this matter. Some of the generals, I agree, possess great qualities of leadership. Others possess nothing of the kind, as experience has shown. But one thing is common to them all, a strong bias in favour of an excessive number of men. That is not confined to the Army:
  1918
  I believe it is found in every walk of life. While I do not subscribe to the traditional arguments regarding compulsory versus voluntary service, I emphasise to the Government that the understanding and acquiescence of the people on this Bill will carry with them a tremendous responsibility for our Ministers in regard to the young manhood of the nation.
  Concern for the young manhood of the nation is not the monopoly of any pacifist group in this House. While we honestly aim at equality of sacrifice, I do not think we are getting it in this Bill. Although we are going in that direction, I have a strong feeling that even in this Bill there is rather too much equality for the man who thinks the voluntary system is a splendid thing for the other fellow. While we honestly aim at this equality, we must bring the total number of men under arms down to the lowest possible point, and shorten the period of service. The need for these things will go on, and I feel certain that the Government will keep them in mind. I have been asked by parents—parents of volunteers as well as of conscripts—to say something else. We must see, and I am asking the Ministers to see, that the moral and intellectual influences in our Fighting Services will be such that these boys will return to their homes better men, for their families and for the nation.
  7.42 p.m.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I shall, I hope, although I by no means promise, be very much shorter than I had intended because so much of what I desired to put on record in this Debate was put by my right hon. Friend from the Front Opposition Bench with a great deal more grace and wit and force than I should even aim at. I venture upon the patience of the House for two reasons. The first is that I was not at all sure when I entered the House—I am not quite sure now—whether I could bring myself to vote for this Bill, and I should not wish to behave differently from my Party without explaining the reasons. My second object in speaking today is to draw, or—more respectfully—to invite the attention of Members and Ministers to a particular point which I think so far has been hardly touched upon. That is the relation between a more or less permanent conscription system and the officering of the Reserve, because I believe

  1919
  that to be the hinge upon which the whole system turns, the whole question whether we get a better or worse Army by conscript methods, and I believe it to be necessary to consider that portion of the subject with very great care
  I will begin with my first point, my general doubts on the Bill. I have no doubt at all about the general right of Government in general to put compulsion on its subjects. I think that any Government is a very bad Government that does not do that only with the very greatest reluctance. But, that Governments have the right to put force, and especially to put force on their subjects to fight, and run the risk of stopping bullets, in the national defence, I have no doubt at all and I do not propose to argue that generally. I think it is generally accepted. I know quite well that there are some hon. Members who take the opposite view, and I would the more respect them if they carried their dislike of compulsion to refusing to take any part in politics, of which compulsion is an essential factor. I do not wish to go into that question of principle at length any more than to say what I have said. It seems to me right enough that Government in general with a big "G" should conscript for military service when necessary. That does not seem to me to conclude the question before the House this evening. The question here is ought this Government to be given this Bill, and that, I think, is a more difficult question than the general one; not that I would wish to fall into the error which I think it is fair to say has been habitually the error of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they were not conscientious objectors—that has been the error of many of them, of almost all the rest the error has been that they have taken the line that when His Majesty's Government is not of their own party, then they did not wish His Majesty's Government to be strong in relation to other Governments. I believe that to be a fatal error and I believe that so long as there is a great party in the State which takes that view, or has a considerable section which takes that view so long the safety of our country is very much at stake, and so long the permanence of democracy is also very much at stake. So, I would not for the world fall into that error.
  1920
  But I ask myself this question. Conscription is a form of taxation and has always been treated so, I think, historically. The German Empire was built up historically on it, on the organisation for collecting conscripts and taxes in Prussia was built up the whole of that machinery of state which has been a dominant factor in Europe for the last 200 years. It is a sort of taxation and in a way it is the most intimate of all taxation, it taxes the flesh and blood of families, and without the consent of the actual persons who are paying; I think that is right and I would not for a moment think of raducing the franchise age. But it is a form of taxation which is the most intimate of all forms of taxation, and this House should never give a Government the right to collect taxes, except after the plainest demonstration from the Treasury Bench why the tax is needed, how it is to be spent, and why not a penny less is needed. The same is true when it is a matter of our flesh and blood, our sons and brothers, cousins and nephews. But the Treasury Bench has made no attempt to show how it is necessary. I do not criticise the Minister of Labour; I was not here—I beg him to believe, unavoidably—to hear him, but I read everything he said and really what he said was an adjective and not a substantive speech. It was not very much more than an explanatory memorandum or preparatory White Paper we might have had. Really there was no reason why it should not have been circulated to us beforehand. We now have four Service Ministers not counting underlings, or one superling or overling and three Service Ministers on the Treasury Bench. One or two of them have dropped in now and then, but that is not enough. It should have been their business to explain how and why this is needed. I regard it as a very dangerous thing indeed that this House should be giving consent in this way without much fuller explanations.
  I regard also as dangerous that my party should be supporting it. I think it is right on the whole probably, but I do so very dubiously, very dubiously indeed. What is happening at present is that hon. Members opposite have thought that Government consisted in the fun of passing Bills—especially the fun of passing Bills to take things away from people they do not like, which was doubly pleasing because it was giving things to

  1921
  someone they did like and taking them away from people they did not like. That is not what government is. That is a very minor part of government even when it may be necessary. Government consists in maintaining law and order and providing strategic defence.
  The truth is that the party opposite, even with its majority of two to one, cannot do these things. Even with a majority of two to one, Socialist Ministers have to get these things done for them by reliance upon the Opposition. They can afford to smile more or less—to smile rather yellow perhaps, but still to smile more or less, at the sort of stuff to which they have had to listen from the benches behind them during the last day and a half, because they know that from in front of them they will not be attacked. I am not sure that it would not have been proper to bring that home to the country by the whole or this side of the House abstaining and letting the divisions opposite appear. I am not quite sure of that and I thought it right to put it on record in case I do not vote tonight. If any hon. Gentleman wishes to ask me any question I shall be willing to give way, but I shall take up another minute's time if I do so.
  Mr. Lever: I wish to know whether anyone on this side of the House has invited the hon. Member to come into the Lobby in support of the Government.
  Mr. Pickthorn: No one invited me, nor have I suggested that. I am sorry if I am unusually slow witted, but I cannot see the relevance of that intervention, or I would try to answer more fully.
  I know that tactically speaking I have done this badly. What I have said will seem to hon. Gentlemen opposite highly contentious and even provocative, but I thought it proper to say it. I now wish to come to a point which I think there is no controversy about, and on which I think all hon. Gentlemen will agree. I agree that tactically I ought to have done that first, but I hope that hon. Gentlemen will have sufficient candour in their minds to try to believe that however wicked I am when I am on the sort of subject about which I have been talking, on the subject I now approach I may be stupid or mistaken, but at any rate I am not wicked. This subject is the relation between the conscripting, of youth and the officering both of His Majesty's Forces
  1922
  and of civilian activities, because I think it is going to require very careful thought. I have no doubt that there are very elaborate plans about it in all the Service Ministries. One of my complaints against this Government, in which I think even their own supporters will join me, is that we do not know what their plans are. It is absurd that we should have got so far through this Debate without our having yet been told what the admirals, the generals and the air marshals have persuaded Ministers to be the right way in which to use conscripts, and particularly to prepare the conscripts to be officers to go as officers on the reserve. If, in the future, we are to have a great war, that is what will matter, if not it will be a pity these men have been conscripted though it may well have been a wise insurance at the time to have gone in for the conscript system.
  What matters is whether conscription gets the right conscripts on to the Reserve of Officers, so that when the expansion has to be made it can be made swiftly and competently. I hope that so far I carry hon. Gentlemen opposite with me. In candour, I must say that I am grateful to the Government for the width of the age-spread in this Bill, which enables a young man to serve as young as 18, or even a little younger if he specially asks, or as old as 26, or even a little older if he specially asks. I think that is a very good thing. I wish to ask this question: Has it been clearly arranged with the Service authorities that the element of choice shall be so administered as to be real? About, e.g., university first and service later there are two opinions—perhaps there are twenty for that matter. I take the university example because it is the one I know most about, not because I am asking for any privilege for persons at universities or persons going to universities. No one who has known me in this House or outside would think that I would do that. I have always taken the view that these people should go and stop bullets when necessary, and I think it is fair to say that at least as high a proportion of these as of any section of the community have stopped bullets in the last war and the war before. I have never held with the heresy that some young men are too good to be used for bullet stopping and ought to be pushed into laboratories or other comparatively sheltered places unless they are absolutely needed there. When a chasm opens in

  1923
  the middle of your forum and the enemy is approaching your city, you have to throw the best of your young men into the chasm. I am not asking for any sort of privilege or indulgence.
  Some people take the view that young men in that age-group should do their service first; some take the opposite view. No doubt each opinion is right about some boys, and perhaps also about some subjects. Now we are getting, so far as this Bill gets we are getting, the possibility of that option. If it can be, it should be put into the Bill on the Committee stage more specifically and at least we should certainly have full assurance that the option is to be real. The House will observe that the option cannot be real if we go on with the present rule of thumb that colleges must take straight from school only ten per cent. of their entry. If that goes on, it is obvious that the option becomes unreal. I hope that the point is clear and I pass on to the next stage of the argument.
  It is this: I have been in the educational machine far too long to think that young men who are academically distinguished are necessarily the best young men either for war or for peace purposes. On the other hand, people who make the opposite assumption are really just idiotic. There is no doubt that on the whole, and in the main, if there is nothing one knows about two people except that A did better academically than B, it is a pretty safe bet that A is better for most purposes. I think that right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite always say that they value, and often seem to over-value education and they are estopped from denying this part of my argument, that is, that on the whole, the best young men, educationally speaking, are the ones we want to be officers, if we have a war on our hands more than can be dealt with by a small expeditionary force. They are, similarly, the ones we want to get fairly soon into fairly responsible positions in civilian life. I think everyone will follow that step of the argument.
  I ask the House and especially Ministers to consider this: If the conscription system is so worked that the best young men find that by choosing to try for a commission, they thereby put off their return to civil life, if that happens, and it is certainly happening at present, if that continues to happen, it is going to have two
  1924
  very bad effects; one very bad effect on the Services is that some of the best young men will be persuaded by their families that they are silly to waste the extra six months or year or more in the Army and that it is better not to take a commission. That is already happening. I know young men who would make admirable officers who are spending the whole of their time refusing to try for commissions.
  The second bad effect is that in so far as the best young men, on such a hypothesis as I have indicated, do stay in the Army, Navy or Air Force for an extra year, two years, or three years or four years, then they will have put themselves so much behind on their return to civil life. That is a very important consideration indeed. Men of my age know very well what an enormous start poeple who went back into civil life in 1917 or 1918 had over us who, by reason of wounds or whatever it might be, could not get started until two or three years later. I think that it is very important that this disadvantage should be avoided.
  Therefore, I ask the Government this: Can we not—I quite understand that most of what I have been saying is not provided for, either for or against, in the Bill, it is merely covered by the Bill. I should like to see what I regard as the proper glosses written into the Bill. If not, at least let us have assurances on this point; because much the worst of all forms of tyranny, the worst both for the tyrant and the victim, the most intolerable to bear, and what perhaps is worst of all, the most ineffective and incompetent of all sorts of tyrannies is that, "You had better, old boy," type of tyranny—the tyranny not done under Statute or even under delegated legislation, but the tyranny of the Minister, the Minister's official or officer who is known to be in so powerful a position that he is able to indicate what you had better do—and you had better. We all know that all Governments tend to fall into that temptation and we have all seen in connection with fuel, in connection with periodicals, and in connection with banks, that this Government is not immune from the temptation. The worst of all the results of this Bill would be if by mere administrative bullying and bluffing, by any method but especially if by that sort of method, people who ought to become officers, either in civilian life or Service

  1925
  life, are disgruntled and held longer than need be.
  These are the questions I wish to put. It seems to me we ought not to part with the Bill, first, without an assurance on my first point, that is to say, the option about age shall be a real option so that people should really feel that they can choose which way round they want to do their military and civilian training. My second question is that it should be made plain and clear that what I call for short the officer type, a disgusting phrase, the sort of young man who is likely to be picked out and is picked out during his first six months as likely to make a good officer—that he shall have every opportunity to fulfil those capabilities without feeling he runs any risk of being forced either by Service or regimental and personal interview with his colonel or in any other way that he will stay on for one year, two years or three years, if he gets his commission. I quite see the temptation of that to the officials and officers. They will say "The King has spent a lot of money on turning this chap into an officer. If we let him go away a week earlier we have wasted all that money." I beg the Treasury bench, whose business it is to keep the Services and offices in order on this sort of point, to persuade them that it actually is a most short sighted policy and that what matters is to choose the right young man and get him on the list of reserve of officers.
  Then I come to my third point, and this is my last sentence, that as an earnest of what I have asked for under number two we ought to have under number three, as soon as possible, plain arrangements that the young men of the present generation, the ones who just missed the real active service but who have already done over 18 months—I do not know the technical name but the Ministers will recognise the class I mean—we ought to have the earliest possible assurance that those who have now obtained commissioned rank should have the option of being released in all honour and without a black mark from the Colours and put on the Reserve after they have done two and a half years or, at the very latest, for university candidates, in the September after they have done two and a half years, because the time of year matters too much to them. That, I think, ought
  1926
  to be done at once, and very soon it ought to be reduced and brought down to September next after one and a half years. Now you have got 18 months as your permanent calculable conscription period, now I do not think you can decently continue to hold those who, ex-hypothesi, are the better type of chaps, who have chosen to try for commissions and succeeded, you ought not to hold them for more than twice as long as has now become the regular period upon which all parents and advisers have to calculate.
  8.5 p.m.
  Wing-Commander Millington: I followed with great interest what the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) had to say. May I be permitted to indicate to him why I think his right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) shed some crocodile tears at the beginning of his speech, regarding the extraordinary position in which the Conservative Party finds itself, in that it is supporting the Government at a time when it might make considerable political capital and advantage by opposing the Government? It is the reason why the hon. Gentleman himself might, even at this stage, find himself in the same Lobby as the Government. The fundamental reason why Conservatives are supporting this Measure is that they believe that the purpose in the mind of the Government is anti-Soviet. The reason why the Opposition are taking their stand, in spite of the fact that they could have made political advantage from the present situation, is simply because they feel that this Bill is intended, and will be used, as an instrument of anti-Sovietism. The case was made by the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke). It was hinted at by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and, from a Conservative point of view, it is a very good reason why they should support this Measure. Equally, from a Socialist point of view it is a very good reason why some of us should oppose this Measure.
  Like a lot of other hon. Members in the period up to 1934, I was an absolutist pacifist. With the growth of Fascism, in Germany in particular, I had such a violent revulsion of feeling that my political friends caused my expulsion from the Labour Party in 1935. I still think that I was right in those days.

  1927
  Even though I had been for the most impressionable years of my life an absolutist pacifist, in 1938, because all our values had been changed by the prospect, almost the certainty, that we would be, fighting a war against a force which would make it quite impossible for my pacifist friends even to continue, to be pacifists, I joined His Majesty's Army. After Dunkirk I left the Army, in which I held commissioned rank, and joined the R.A.F. I felt that I was not waging the war against Fascism as completely and competently in the Army as I could have done if I had joined the Royal Air Force. It is not illogical that I, who started my political thinking as an absolutist pacifist, found myself, towards the end of the war, fighting in the most ruthless and most vicious methods of warfare that had been invented prior to July 1945. I make this personal explanation at the beginning of what I have to say because I saw the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) look across the House yesterday, and say:
  "Below the Gangway we see representatives of these conceptions and ideas which nearly brought us to ruin in the late war and have gone far and are going further to pull us down after our victory."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1947; Vol. 435, c. 1690.]
  I do not boast of what I did in the recent war, but I submit that the charge which was made against those of us who have our names to this Amendment cannot properly be levelled at most of us, and, in particular, cannot be levelled at myself. I view this problem, as it were, from the technical point of view in the first instance. I want to know, What do we want of our Armed Forces? The hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) appears to want a million inefficient conscripts in preference to 100,000 highly skilled volunteers, because the latter may become a military cadre and may ultimately be used to form the basis for a Fascist movement, or something of that sort. I believe that our country is, economically so near to becoming in extremis that it would be better for us to have even a military cadre of 100,000 to do the job of fulfilling our commitments economically, if it would release the 900,000 to do the work of national defence by getting the vital coal from our mines and other goods produced in our factories.
  There are instances of the qualitative aspect which ought to be investigated by
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  hon. Members. I interrupted the right hon. Member for West Bristol when he was saying that the prewar Territorial Army method was not the best method of training troops to bear the onslaught of war. I saw a lot of the British Army when it came back from France in 1940. I believe that the regular Guards battalions behaved in a manner heroic beyond parallel in the whole of the history of warfare; second to them were the county Territorial regiments, because they were volunteers and because they were men who had chosen to serve their country in this way. Albeit the conscript—the militia—had not had the value of a very long period of military training before he was thrust up against the enemy in France, the fact remains that generally speaking the conscript soldier of 1940 put up a deplorable show. The reorganisation of the British Army which started in the summer of 1940 was held up for months because of the demoralised nature of these young conscripts after the beating they had in France.
  Here is another word on the qualitative aspect of our Armed Forces. If there is a special job to be done which involves special qualifications and willingness to take special risks, never in our history have we recruited for these special jobs from conscripts. All aircrew in the Royal Air Force were volunteers for the job. All commandos, all paratroopers and all special task forces were volunteers, and they have achieved their astonishing record of success in action because they were volunteers and because they did not resist their military training as did so many conscripts even during the period of our intense national emergency. One of the lessons of the period of conscription which started just two months before the war, and terminated so quickly with the evacuation from the beaches of Dunkirk, is probably that the period of 18 months is not sufficient time in which to turn 18-year old boys into efficient front line infantry soldiers. With those boys in particular, it is the hard training in discipline which is of the topmost importance.
  Much as I want to see better conditions for men in the Army and the other Services, I do not believe that the present tendency, under Field Marshal Montgomery's plan for the present Army, will make the right sort of hard infantry soldiers in 18 months. On the other hand, the technical services, as I would call

  1929
  them, in particular the men who go to sea in ships or fly in aeroplanes, were got ready for action in much less than 12 months during the war. I think it best to quote from experience because that is unchallengeable. From the first day when I went to an initial training wing to learn to fly with the Royal Air Force, to the day on which I was qualified to go and fight against Germans in the air, there was a period of between seven and eight months. Yet I still maintain that it could not have been done with a conscript force, because every single man who learnt to fly during the war, or to parachute, or those who served in the commandos and so on, had the impetus of the voluntary spirit. Each man had the impetus that he was going to serve because he wanted to serve. There is another attitude which can be held in contrast. I commanded a training unit in the British Army in the summer of 1940—a unit of Army class conscripts—and we had the most incredible difficulty, first to keep the chaps we were trying to train in camp during the training period, and then to make them do any kind of work while they were there.
  If the function of this Bill is to create a reserve of trained manpower, which can be mobilised at a moment's notice to support our regular Forces in the field in the event of an emergency, I charge this Government that they have not done a single thing to create efficient reserves. There are the Territorials, or the voluntary or auxiliary organisation, such as we saw before the war. In the county of Essex, in which my constituency lies, an excellent panel of officers was got together to organise recruitment for the Territorial Army in that county. They were an excellent body of men, keen and enthusiastic to get on with the job. They have practically given up, within two or three months of starting, their campaign of recruitment because they have now had instructions from the War Office that they are to train these Territorial soldiers in anti-aircraft work.
  I interrupted the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) on this point earlier in the Debate. I do not believe that the methods which are being taught in the Army today and which were used during the war have any relationship with the problem of anti-aircraft defence in any future war. I do not believe that they can possibly be efficient against man-operated aero
  1930
  planes because of the tremendous speeds at which aeroplanes will be operated in future. The main problem, however, in anti-aircraft defence will not be against aeroplanes, but against guided missiles and rockets, possibly with atomic warheads. We require a complete reorientation of our views. To waste all our Territorial services in the Army by using searchlight equipment, detector equipment and anti-aircraft guns and so on which were many years out-dated even before the end of the war, except for a few little gadgets of radar added to them in the war, is a positive waste of manpower which I cannot but think is deliberate.
  The Minister of Labour was interrupted at the beginning of his speech yesterday by the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey). I think I am quoting the Minister correctly when I say that he did not think that the Territorial method of training, applied generally over the Forces, produced the right pitch of training for men who might be called upon at a moment's notice to go into battle. The hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield asked whether he was specifically referring to the Battle of Britain pilots who learnt their trade in the Auxiliary Air Force or the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Those reserves are evidence that a volunteer force is a force which can be relied upon and which can do the job of work immediately in the face of any emergency. We cannot rely on a conscript force. Again I charge the Government that long before now they should have got the Auxiliary Air Force or the Volunteer Reserve of the Royal Air Force well under way, because the men are there to start it and to officer it and they are losing the skill they learnt during the war. Two years have elapsed and they have been given no encouragement whatsoever, no directive and no instructions.
  What is to happen to the A.T.C. and the Cadet Corps? I believe that without compulsory military service we can put those boys in what are now called "pre-service units," give them the necessary basic training, and give them summer camps to improve their physique. It is a quite logical and natural transition for them to go from their boys' training into the Territorial Forces. But, again, this Government do not seem to have realised quite how powerful an instrument for

  1931
  military recruitment they had in their hands in the A.T.C, and the Naval and Army Cadet Corps. They have given them no encouragement, and they have wasted a valuable source of training which might have helped them over their present difficulties. But, beyond all this, it would appear to me that we see a mentality which is still preparing for the last war. We cannot afford to spend our resources of men or money in preparing tactical and strategical plans for wax. Although the right hon. Member for West Bristol said that we were always being told by "these wild young men" that a new invention would replace older methods, the reason why the aeroplane did not supersede the infantry soldier in the recent war was simply because we did not have enough aeroplanes to do the job. If, in 1942, we had produced a front line bomber force of 4,000 aeroplanes the job of occupying Germany could have been done by policemen, instead of our armies having the job of fighting all the way from the beaches of Normandy.
  Our best defence, in the circumstances that we may have to face, not in the next year or two, but in 10 plus years from now, is to get our industrial machine in proper order. Our best defence is to say that instead of having one million or more men frittering away their time learning—if they are learning anything at all—outmoded arts of war, let them learn a trade. If every conscript called up under this Bill were to be put to 1½ years learning how to use machine tools, how to make a big contribution to our industrial life, it would result in a far better defence of this island than merely letting 550,000 men play at soldiers in the barracks of the United Kingdom. We have it on the authority of the Foreign Secretary that an exportable surplus of coal is a far better negotiating instrument than all the Armies. We want to look for new friends in the world, and those we want are poor men. They can be obtained if we have an industrial machine that will help them.
  There have been two arguments for this Bill which might have persuaded me, had they come from the Government Front Bench. I was considerably interested in the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry, that we must look for a reorientation of our political and economical life towards
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  Europe, starting with the Anglo-French Alliance. We must do something to convince the European countries—22 of them—of our good faith. If the Government had said, "Military conscription, as a method of raising our forces, is essential, in these circumstances, to attest our good faith to the French," then I would give some weight to their case. But, of course, they have not said that. Secondly, if they had said to us, "At a guess, the size of the forces we need, for our contribution to the United Nations organisation security force, is x, and to achieve x we must have military conscription," then I would have listened with more interest. But I have heard only the vaguest possible generalisations about our commitments in the international field. I have had the conviction that when the Conservative Party was with them, supporting the Government, they might have had fellow minds on the Government Front Bench. Why did not the Cabinet have the courage to wait for the presentation of this Bill until after Whitsuntide? Why did they not have the courage to go to the Conference of their own party, who will raise this question, and have already indicated that they will do so? Is it because, for some reason which they refuse to reveal to the House and the country, they were frightened to have this policy rejected by that Conference before it was scheduled to come before the House? If, now or later, the Government could convince me that conscription was the only way to raise the force needed in order to get Europe organised, on a basis of mutual confidence, then I would support this Bill, but I am desperately afraid that its purpose is to put an iron glove on the fist of the Foreign Secretary, which he is so fond of shaking at the leaders of the U.S.S.R.
  8.24 p.m.
  Mr. Shackleton: It is with some trepidation that I have caught your eye, Sir, because although I sit on these benches I propose to support the Government. I would ask my hon. Friends, who are opposed to us in this issue, to believe that just as we trust their sincerity in this matter we who are supporting the Bill, and who have given a great deal of anxious thought to it, are just as sincere, and no less genuine. We, as they, have been placed in a very difficult position by the failure of the Government to give a proper explanation as to the need for conscription. That is a fundamental diffi-

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  culty in which we are all placed. Up to a point, we are all having to follow a "hunch," or work out the figures in the best way we can.
  There are certain points which have been made in opposition to this Bill which I feel should be taken up. Some were made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Wing-Commander Millington). I will not deal with the whole question of the strategy of war, but when he suggests, as others have suggested, that Members such as my hon. Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt), and others who are supporting conscription, are doing so in order that we may have a force of one million men or more in 1949 or 1950, I suggest that they have not even considered the problem. They have not realised that what we are debating is what will be the strength of our Armed Forces in 1949, or 1950. If their accusation against this Bill is that we cannot spare the men from industry, then I say that they should have come to the House and opposed the Army Estimates during the last two or three weeks—
  Wing-Commander Millington: If my hon. and gallant Friend will read the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow he will see that he has made a completely false accusation against me. I did not suggest that conscription meant an Army of one million men, or more, by 1950.
  Mr. Shackleton: Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend has misunderstood me. He certainly used the figure of one million, but the point is that there will be nothing like one million men in the Armed Forces in 1949, or 1950, even if we pass this Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks), who made a rather unfair attack on my hon. Friend the Member for Aston in the same respect, must realise that what we are considering now is whether we shall have an Army at all in 1949. At the present rate of recruitment, we shall not have an Army anything like as big as our prewar Army. We are in difficulty over this Bill, but those who do not have conscientious scruples against national service—and I respect those who have—are none the less as good Socialists as my hon. Friends "who are opposing this Measure. It must be a source of great satisfaction to the Opposition to see this internecine struggle, but we believe that our ideas will be best served by the
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  sort of Army we are trying to build up. We are more concerned, at the moment, in ensuring that the British Army is a properly democratic Army; and when the Bill comes to the Committee stage, I hope that we shall have the opportunity of wringing some concessions and undertakings from the Government, which hitherto we have failed to do, on the matter of the democratisation of the Army.
  As to the point made by the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), there are many States in Europe, particularly in Scandinavia, to which we have pointed in the past as models of social democracy, where freedom and socialism have gone hand in hand. These countries have had conscription, although, perhaps, for not so long a period, as an integral part of the State, and it has had, in my opinion some value in increasing democratisation and lifting up the general standard of equality among the people. Conscription has many disadvantages, but there are a few advantages, and I hope that, as soon as we adopt this Bill, we shall concentrate on getting some of the benefits that may be obtained from conscription.
  8.31 p.m.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: At the end, or nearly the end, of this long Debate, when so many speeches have been delivered and so much ground has been covered, it is perhaps wise to confine myself to one or two issues which seem to me, and to most of my hon. Friends, as of supreme importance. As time is limited, and I would not wish to prevent other hon. Members from taking part in the Debate, I propose to confine myself to the examination of two matters. The first is the commitments which this House has already, by deliberate and unanimous action, assumed, and the consequences of those commitments. Secondly, I should like to say a word or two about the issue of personal freedom, to which some not very well informed reference has been made by two hon. Members on the bench in front of me, earlier in the Debate.
  As regards the commitments which this House has already accepted, I think that the House—and I am talking now only about this House—must stand up to the logic of its own previous decisions. What are those decisions?

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  The first one, obviously, is the Charter of the United Nations. The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) reminded the House that under that Charter we are committed, as one of the nations, to providing armed forces for the service of the United Nations organisation. It is quite true, as the hon. Member said, that the complete commitment is dependent upon certain agreements that shall be made. The hon. Member said that we cannot do anything until the agreements are made, but I think that he is seeking to escape in a way which is not quite up to his standard, because he knows quite well that, also under the Charter of the United Nations, there was to be set up a military staff committee. What is one of the chief complaints of every Foreign Secretary, including our own, at the present time? It is that the Military Staff Committee has not yet reached a decision, and every effort is being made by our Foreign Secretary, and every other Foreign Secretary, I assume, to expedite these decisions; and if this Government can get what they want decision should be reached in the course of the next few months. Therefore, we cannot escape the direct responsibility which we have accepted for the provision of adequate military forces under that Charter.
  There is a more recent commitment which the House has assumed. There is the commitment under the Defence White Paper, which was discussed in this House not more than 10 days ago, and accepted by the House without a single vote in opposition to it. It was accepted unanimously. There was not an Amendment to it, and there was not one word of criticism from any of the hon. Members who have today been so vigorous in their attack on the Government and the present proposals. Perhaps I should amend that sentence. Although there may have been some criticism, not one of them voted against it. That was a statement unanimously accepted by the House. Hon. Members opposite must accept the democratic principle that the House, having committed itself to that statement, must face up to its logical conclusions. Those conclusions are, I think, in-escapable. From the moment the House accepted these commitments, it accepted also the duty to ensure that sufficient numbers of men shall be available to
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  support those obligations and this armed service.
  Mr. Benn Levy: What is sufficient?
  Mr. Stewart: The Defence Paper shows the figures and the numbers required, and if there was any doubt about the meaning of the Defence Paper, the Minister of Defence explained it. His figures are on record. Those figures were plainly stated in the House, and they exceeded one million. The House accepted those figures and the scheme behind them, so how can it refuse now—10 days later—the means to provide those numbers? There is only one good reason for refusing to accept the means offered, and that is if better means are stated.
  Mr. H. D. Hughes: There are no figures in the White Paper later than December, 1946. This Bill does not take effect until January, 1949.
  Mr. Stewart: That is quite true; but it shows what are our general commitments, and it is all in the greatest detail in the speech delivered by the Minister of Defence.
  Mr. Levy: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how exactly this Conscription Bill in peace time is to add to the number of men available for those commitments, because it has been said, as a point of fact, that the period of 18 months' training has been chosen as a period which is minimum training, and if they are to be under training for 18 months and then released, where are the additional men to come from?
  Mr. Stewart: I will try to deal with that point as I go along, or, if the hon. Member prefers it, I will deal with it now. What is the purpose of this Bill? It is to have either in active service or just out of active service but fully trained, an adequate number of men to meet our commitments.
  Mr. Levy: In reserve?
  Mr. Stewart: In service, in training or in reserve.
  Mr. S. Silverman: That has nothing to do with the White Paper.
  Mr. Stewart: The White Paper, 10 days ago, set the general stage for this whole business. It set clearly before the country a very great programme of armed force, in order to carry through certain obligations. Does the hon. Gentleman deny that?
  Mr. S. Silverman: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has seen the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Levy). Under the scheme explained by the Minister of Labour, the men provided by this Bill will not be available for any of the commitments defined in the White Paper.
  Mr. Stewart: I have some other points I want to refer to and I think it would be rather unfair if we continued this personal argument any further. I would remind hon. Members of the speech made by the Minister of Labour yesterday and from it I will take one sentence:
  "The position which confronts the Government is, that unless we can continue the present arrangements for the call-up of men, the regular element in the Services is likely to be insufficient to meet even a fraction of our minimum defence requirements. "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1947; Vol. 435, c. 1675.]
  That is the essence of this matter. I hope we shall get from the Government some facts in implementation of the situation which is presented by that statement. We need that, but I for one cannot do anything but accept the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, because he has all the expert advice that is available in this country and until I am able to prove he is wrong I must accept it. In view of that statement I feel that the action the Government is taking deserves the sympathetic consideration of the House.
  Are the numbers mentioned here necessary? Can they be obtained by voluntary methods? If they cannot, is conscription or is it not the right method of providing them? I should have thought that the Minister of Labour provided the answer to the first two of these questions. I agree that the information we have is not entirely satisfactory and I want far more facts from the Government, but on the assumption that the statement by the Minister is correct it does seem to me that the answer to the question is that the necessary numbers cannot be obtained by the voluntary efforts. I think the Minister has given an effective answer when he told us what was happening about volun-
  1938
  tary enlistment, especially during last year, and that it has not succeeded in providing anything like the numbers required.
  The second main point that I have in mind is the issue of personal freedom. According to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) conscription in peacetime infringes the liberty of the British subject, and there must be an overwhelming case for its introduction. He said there was no precedent for this conscription in time of peace and he suggested, I think, that this proposal was contrary to all the practices of Liberal philosophy. With great respect, I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman is wrong on both counts. It is not a fact that compulsory service in this country in times of peace is without precedent. Surely, from the very earliest times, and we can go back to the days of King Arthur, up to the time of Napoleon—[Laughter]—hon. Members are laughing, but is it not true that in that long period in every moment of stress it was a part of the British Constitution that a militia be formed by compulsory measures, and its formation in such circumstances was accepted by the nation? It was a piece of compulsory military service accepted by all.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: The point made by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) was that this was the first permanent conscription introduced in peacetime.
  Mr. Stewart: With great respect, it is not. I am talking about times of peace when danger threatened or when there was an emergency.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: There is no threat of danger now.
  Mr. Stewart: I am asserting an historical fact that in all those hundreds of years of British history it was an accepted part of the British Constitution that in times of trial, stress and emergency military compulsion was accepted, and, in fact, took place. It is within the recollection of some hon. Members that it is only as late as 1921 that the right to ballot for the militia was, in fact, taken from the Statute Book. I can give another example. The 1939 Military Training Act was an Act of compulsory military service in time of peace. It is true that war was threatening, but it was a moment

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  of peace, and while Sir Archibald Sinclair and some of his friends spoke against that Measure they took care, as usual, not to vote one way or the other, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery voted for it.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: And he said so today.
  Mr. Stewart: I am only repeating what he said. Personally, I am not in the least bit surprised by his change of front today. His speech was given a great welcome by the left wing of the Labour Party, to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has been steadily moving for such a considerable time with such obvious satisfaction to himself. We have observed it. He used to sit on our Benches, then he moved in front of us and before very long he will be over on the other side of the House. I assert—and I have some right to speak for the Liberal point of view—[Laughter.] I do not know why hon. Members laugh. I represent, as I told the House before, and as I repeat now, as a Liberal—
  Mrs. Leah Manning: A National Liberal.
  Mr. Stewart: I always support a National Government.
  Mrs. Nichol: In Tory colours.
  Mr. Stewart: I represent, and am supported by, men who supported Mr. Asquith for 34 years.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I fail to see what these remarks have to do with the Bill under consideration.
  Mr. Stewart: I have been challenged and I am answering the challenge.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member may have been challenged but I cannot allow him to continue that line of argument.
  Mr. Stewart: I do not want to continue it, but I want to assert my right to speak for, and to explain to the House, the Liberal principles upon this matter.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: On a point of Order. Is it in Order for the hon. Member to continue that line of argument designed to show to the House why he had always voted with the Conservative Party and never against the Conservative Party? Is
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  it in Order to attack my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery as the Leader of the Liberal Party?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If I had thought the hon. Member was out of Order I should have stopped him.
  Mr. Stewart: To support the contention I made that compulsory military service in times of emergency is not contrary to the traditions of those for whom I speak, may I remind the House that in this famous Debate in 1939, in addition to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery, who voted for the Bill, Mr. Lloyd George also voted and spoke with a view to putting the Liberal point of view. I wish to remind the House of what he said, that he and the Liberal leaders in 1911 thought along similar lines in the matter of conscription. Let me read what the great Liberal Leader said:
  "It is worth while considering whether, if the world is to remain in the threatened condition that it is in now"
  not unlike our present condition—
  "we ought not to reconsider altogether the policy of training for war"—
  or, as one might say today, for defence—
  "I put forward certain proposals in 1911."
  I think he was Chancellor of the Exchequer then.
  "They were more or less on the lines of this Bill."
  He was referring to the Bill of 1939 which is not very different in principle from the Bill we are considering tonight.
  "They had the acceptance of the late Mr. Asquith, who was my chief then, and of the principal leaders of the Liberal Party."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 8th May. 1939: Vol. 347. c. 68.]
  In view of that statement, who is more correctly representing the Liberal view tonight, I or the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery? I claim that I am speaking tonight in the direct line of Liberal succession in support of this Bill.
  Mr. Rankin: In view of the quotation which he has just made, would the hon. Gentleman say whether there is any reference to the secret treaties which were then in existence and which made the arrangement necessary, and also if there is any such situation today?
  Mr. Stewart: The hon. Member must not lead the House away on to these matters. I am talking on a matter of principle and asserting that the principle that in times of emergency and danger it is right for the British people to accept compulsory military service—although unwillingly—is one which is in direct line with Liberal philosophy.
  Mr. S. Silverman rose—
  Mr. Stewart: I cannot give way again. I refuse only because I do not want to take up further time but wish to conclude my remarks. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke so eloquently from the Opposition Front Bench said something which I felt was very much in accord with my own view. He said first that no one particularly likes to have conscription at any time. I share that belief entirely. I was a volunteer in the first world war and in the second, but nobody likes conscription. It tears young men away from their proper work, takes students from their studies either at the beginning or the end of their training, and upsets young men's apprenticeships. All that is true, and, as I say, nobody likes it. We have to accept it only as an unavoidably expedient, but I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) that it has its merits. In the last war the fact that conscription was universal and started from the beginning led to the mixing of the classes and destroyed that silly class distinction which does this country so much harm. That is all to the good, but in the end this remains a matter of regret, and I am sure that when I say this I speak the minds of all my hon. Friends who should be on this bench. We greatly regret having to support this at all. As my final point, I would say this. Facing the world as it is today with all its difficulties, dangers and doubts, and recognising that if we are to remain a great people supporting 45 million souls, we have to remain a great world Power with world connections; recognising our imperialistic responsibilities—if you like—we must maintain troops in many parts of the world. To do that we need a great Army and large Services generally. I believe that our country has yet a very noble part to play in the world which it can play only if we remain a great international Power. If it be true—and it is for
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  the Government tonight to confirm the views that we hold—that voluntary recruitment cannot provide the numbers referred to by the right hon. Gentleman as essential, then I am prepared, with most of my hon. Friends, to go with them into the Lobby in support of the Bill.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Mikardo: I want to speak in support of the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). I do so for reasons some of which have not so far been advanced in this Debate. I am not a pacifist, but I believe that it is just as possible to be conscientiously convinced that this Bill is bad on economic grounds, as it is to be conscientiously convinced that it is bad on moral grounds. Let me say at once—like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley), and unlike the Leader of the Opposition—that whilst I think the pacifists are wrong, I do honour them for the sincerity of their convictions.
  It used to be a tradition in this House to respect the other man's convictions even when they were different from one's own, and I think it is altogether a pity that yesterday the Leader of the Opposition dived into the bottom drawer of his store of verbal venom in order to find epithets for people who hold sincere convictions, merely because those convictions are different from his own. The Leader of the Opposition, as we all know, is very good at finding epithets, and, as we also, know, he enjoys it very much. Sometimes I think that he has an occasional very small regret—only a very small one—for the deaths of his nearest and dearest enemies, Hitler and Mussolini, because he must have had a lot of fun in thinking up epithets with which to castigate them and then declaiming those epithets with a pretended spontaneity and a lip-smacking relish. I am always sorry for a man who cannot live out his days without having something to hate, and for my part I think so much of the Leader of the Opposition—I wish he were here to hear me say this—and I am so conscious of the debt I owe him, that I am glad to claim my share as one of those who give him an opportunity for demonstrating his unparalleled, if sometimes rather flamboyant, mastery of the English language.

  1943
  As I have said, I honour the conscientious anti-conscriptionists, but I do not share their views. I think conscription is a sensible way of sharing out a burden, and certainly a much better way than the old one of the dole queue, I do not think that this Bill is objectionable because of the method it proposes, but I think it is open to question with regard both to its purpose and its cost in economic terms. The point has been made by several of my hon. and gallant Friends—by the hon. and gallant Member for Preston (Wing-Commander Shackleton) this evening and the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg) and the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) yesterday—that the question of how many people we have in our Services is irrelevant to the subject of conscription. I want to suggest that that is not so, and that in point of fact numbers are very relevant to the question of conscription for two reasons. One with regard to our commitments—so-called—and one with regard to the extent to which labour in the Armed Forces was utilised economically.
  The main point is that if the generals had to go out and scratch for every man, as industrial employers have to, they would take jolly good care, first, to get no larger number than was justified, and secondly, to see that none of the men they had to go out and scratch for was wasted. As it is, with men being shovelled into them with a priority which, in these days of desperate economic conditions, is given to no other occupation except coalmining, can we blame them if they not only cease to cut their coat according to the cloth, but get all the cloth they can and then cut all the coats they want to get out of that cloth? I have not the least doubt that however many men you give the generals, they will find commitments to occupy them.
  I do love that blessed word "commitments." It is one of those lovely, round, omnibus words that people throw around without stopping to define them and without giving any explanation whatever. "Commitments" is just like "circumstances over which we have no control," and "your representations will be taken into active consideration." The only definition I ever heard of the word "commitments" that makes any sense was given by a man who was once sued for failure to maintain his wife and chil-
  1944
  dren and pleaded that he could not afford to do so because of his other commitments. I sometimes think that we are doing exactly the same thing. The game we are playing in this country, in economic terms at the moment, is that suburban game of keeping up with the Smiths next door.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: The Jones's.
  Mr. Mikardo: I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon—the Jones's. We have made a music-hall joke of the woman who simply has to get new curtains, because the woman next door has new curtains, even if she goes without her Sunday dinner to get them. That is just what we have been doing for the last few years. We have been building up forces, and we now propose to have a large Army until 1954, to enable our Foreign Secretary to keep up with the Marshalls and the Molotovs next door. Some of us are beginning to think that it is not worth going without our Sunday dinners to have these new curtains like those of the Marshalls and the Molotovs next door, although they are very nice and pleasant, and please our vanity, and give the Opposition something to cheer about. We have had to take down some of our curtains covering Greece and Turkey.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) thought there was no need to have conscription to fulfil our U.N.O. commitments. I would point out that there is no conscription in Canada or Australia, and that both these countries are no less keen about U.N.O. than we are. Incidentally, there is no conscription in the United States, and the question is being asked throughout the country, whether this Bill is not the result of an overt or covert understanding with the United States, that they will supply the dollars and we will supply the men. We know it has been said by Members of the Government, that there is no secret understanding, but today 1st April, is the very day on which this arrangement actually comes into operation in Greece, because today in Greece the Americans start pumping in the dollars, and we start pumping in the men, or at least keeping the men there while they supply the dollars.
  At this moment, the nations of the world are beginning to grope tentatively towards the first moves after the war for disarmament, and it seems that no worse moment could have been chosen for

  1945
  the introduction of this Measure. At this time, when the first disarmament moves are being tentatively examined, nothing could have been done by the Government which would have more effect in breathing a cold blast on this tender little bud of disarmament discussion. That is one way in regard to commitments in which numbers are irrelevant. The other way is this. So long as there is conscription and so long as the generals get their men fed to them, instead of having to sell the idea of service in the Army, they cannot be expected to be so careful in the utilisation of their manpower. We saw this during the war when, in factories which had labour shovelled into them, there was not the same care to make every man do a job as there was in those factories which had to scratch about for their labour.
  We have heard from the Minister of Defence and from the Secretary of State for War that committees have been set up to tighten up the use of manpower in the Forces. The Minister of Defence described this arrangement a fortnight ago in a long answer he gave to a Question which I put. Any hon. Member can see that the mechanism to check the utilisation of manpower is totally inadequate. The totally inadequate mechanism is not made adequate by the invitation I have received from the Secretary of State for War to give evidence before that committee, just as anybody else can give evidence. In connection with the utilisation of manpower, I wish to refer to the length of the training period. The Minister of Defence is to sum up this Debate, and perhaps he will answer this question. As the Minister of Labour said quite clearly yesterday, the 18 months is not required entirely for training, but partly for training and partly for service. The Minister of Defence, said last Friday in a written answer to a Question that the time required for training in all three Services was 18 months. I get letters from my constituents, as every other hon. Member of this House does, and I had one yesterday morning from a new man in the Royal Air Force. He has been in seven months, and is supposed to be starting any minute a 12 months' course of training as a radio mechanic. So far, after seven months he has not had one single day of training, and does not look like starting for a very long time.
  The final point I want to make is this. A number of hon. Members on both sides
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  of the House have referred to the cost of conscription in economic terms, none with more effect than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol. The Government have been challenged by a number of hon. Members to give details of the commitments for which these services are required, but I challenge them to give details of the total cost to the nation in economic terms, because in addition to the obvious costs there are ever so many hidden costs. Let us not forget that at this moment we are breaking our necks to "export, export, export," in order to cover the deficit in our balance of trade. Our military expenditure last year, in 1946, in two commands alone, reached a total greater than the total deficit of our balance of trade, and the policy of "export, export, export," while it is worth while when it is bringing in food and raw materials, is not worth much when it is only paying for the invisible import which is represented by every single soldier we have stationed abroad.
  The Forces are great consumers of man power, and not only directly in the Forces. Under this Bill there is the equivalent of the labour of 60,000 men, full time, taken up with the fortnight's training per year. That is another 60,000 added to the roll. At present 41 workers are engaged in manufacturing supplies for the Armed Forces for every 100 soldiers, and that figure will go up as soon as we start to reduce the surplus war stores. Moreover, that figure takes into account only the main contractors, not the subcontractors and the sub-sub-contractors. It takes into account the men who make the tanks, but not the men who make the machine tools which make the tanks, it does not take into account the man who drives the lorry that carries the machine tools, or the man who makes the lorry. There is a large multiplying factor, and an enormous hidden consumption of labour. Every telephone call that goes through a civilian exchange from an Army unit is one less telephone call for industry. Every truck that goes along the railway carrying Army supplies is one less truck carrying timber. Every ton of coal that goes to a barracks is one ton less for industry, and the miner who hewed the coal is lost to industry just as much as if he were out of the mines and stuck in the Army.
  What is the total cost? Unless the Government are prepared to say what is

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  the total cost in economic terms, they have no right to ask the House to give them an economic blank cheque. Because there has been no such statement of total cost, and in my view no beginning on the part of the Government of an appreciation of that total cost in economic terms, I, for one, will find myself in the Lobby in support of the Amendment.
  9.9 p.m.
  Mr. H. D. Hughes: The hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo) will know that I and many other hon. Members who have spoken in support of this Bill have been during the recent Debates just as critical as he is of bates have been just as critical as he is of the number of men in the Armed Forces, of the misuse of manpower in the Services, and in particular of the lack of information that has been given to this House. In spite of these things, we still feel, for causes which I shall show, that we have to support the Bill. On the point about lack of information, the hon. Member for Reading referred to more cards to be kept face upwards. The trouble at the moment of course is that the Minister of Defence has been remarkably successful in keeping all the cards face downwards, so that nobody in this house really knows what the figures are going to be. In spite of this I feel it is necessary, if we are to be realists at this time, to support the Bill.
  Even if one takes the figures that have been given by the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt), and other hon. Members, as to the numbers likely to be needed to fulfil commitments after 1949, there are only three possible ways in which we can hope to raise the number of men required. We could do it, as we did before the war, by the threat of unemployment and poverty. This Government are not going to follow that course. We could possibly do it, as hon. Members who are opposing the Bill have indicated, by setting up a kind of Praetorian Guard, spoiled darlings who would be given much better conditions than anybody else in industry. We have attempted to put the Forces in this country on a level somewhat comparable with industry, and the result is that, in spite of all that, the Regular Forces today total some 275,000, and the Regular Army is less than half the size of that which we had in 1939. My hon. Friends have got to choose. Are they really prepared to go on improving conditions in the Forces to
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  such an extent that the Forces will be so attractive that they will overcome the relative disadvantages of men being called away from their homes, from their civilian surroundings, and from their careers? We can give preferential conditions to attract men into the mines, we can do it to attract them into the key civilian industries, but I submit that we cannot do it for the Armed Forces without setting up what I have described as a Praetorian Guard. The third way in which we could get the number of men we need is by a system of conscription, which is much the most democratic of those three methods. Those are the main reasons for which we support the Bill.
  Having said that, I want to criticise one or two of the measures in the Bill. I am very worried by the period of 18 months. What are the reason for which we need men in the Forces for 18 months? I hope the Minister of Defence, when he replies, will be a little specific. We have been given two reasons. The Minister of Labour pointed out that we need men for general occupation duties in the transitional period and we also need them for a trained reserve. As long as both those commitments exist, there is some case for 18 months, but the trouble is that when one gives the Defence Ministries something, it is very difficult to get it back from them. Their motto is, "What we have we hold." One can see that already the Defence Departments are getting down to the job of proving that 18 months will for all time be the necessary minimum period. The Minister of Defence, in a written reply last Friday, produced a theory about 18 months being the absolutely minimum period in which one could train a man in the Royal Navy or the Army. If that is held to be true, the logic is immediately that the 18 months period will not be reduced when our commitments shrink, because the Defence Departments will say that 18 months are necessary for basic training.
  I submit that, from the experience we had in the war, that is completely inaccurate. During the war we could train an artillery signaller in basic training in six months and artillery officers in five months. It is admitted already that the basic training in the Army is from 14 to 33 weeks, and in the reply which he gave, the Minister of Defence said, with an air of pride, that the Royal Air Force are extending their general recruit training

  1949
  from eight to 13 weeks, and that procedure is going on elsewhere. I submit that the case for 18 months training is purely special pleading. Has nobody told the people responsible for training in the Service Departments that there is a peace on, and that they have got to use the period of conscription for training in the most efficient possible way? We should, on the Committee stage, I hope we will, succeed in getting the period down to one year.
  One further point on which I myself feel distinctly perturbed is that this Bill goes on until 1954. I believe that is far too long a period on which we should commit ourselves now. The year 1954 is nearly the end of the next Parliament from this, and I would much prefer a Bill which would give our successors in the next Parliament a chance to make up their minds on the principle at an early stage.
  For those reasons, and with very many reservations, certainly not with the kind of song in my heart which I am sure many of the Tory Party will have as they vote for this Bill tonight, we feel, on balance, that we should support this Bill, but in the Committee stage we shall need many more assurances than we have had so far that the Services will be made really democratic. We have fought a kind of guerrilla campaign with the Service Departments for a period of months to get real measures of democratisation in the Forces. Slowly and painfully, the Service Departments are beginning to give way. We do not believe that process has gone anything like far enough and, until it has, we shall feel doubtful about giving the Defence Minister and his Service colleagues the right to control the lives of the young men of this country for a period as long as 18 months.
  9.17 p.m.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander)rose—
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Alexander: I am very much obliged for the supporting cheers. I take it that it is because there is a recognition, even on the opposite benches, that whoever replies for the Government to the kind of Debate we have had for the last two days, has certainly no easy task. I have listened very carefully for the whole of the
  1950
  two days without having once interrupted any one of the hon. Members of the House on any single occasion and I want if possible—my hon. Friends on all sides of the House know that I am likely to be a little volatile in temperament sometimes, and I do not wish to be tempted tonight—to have the opportunity of examining the position that we have to defend, with calmness and, I hope, with satisfaction if not to all hon. Members, to the majority of the hon. Members in the House.
  This is one of the most important Debates which has ever taken place in the House, and one of the most important certainly in the lifetime of this Parliament. I recognise from what has been said in different parts of the House that we are dealing with a matter which appears in every home as a great human issue. The whole question as it was put by the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris) and repeated in somewhat similar fashion by the Leader of the Liberal Party this afternoon; the question of principle, the freedom of the individual, the liberty of the spirit, are matters, are human issues, which I through all my political and Nonconformist life have been thoroughly interested in and affected by, and there are many hon. Members in my own party with the same kind of origin and the same kind of upbringing that I have had in these matters, who feel just as deeply and just as sincerely about these issues as those who may perhaps differ from the recommendations of the Government to the House tonight. I hope that hon. Members will recognise that as we go on with the Debate.
  I regret most deeply that we have not got unanimity on the Government side of the House on this matter, but I recognise it is one of those human issues upon which it is almost impossible to get unanimity. But I hope that we shall find as we go along with the voting tonight, and in the further stages of the Bill, that we shall more or less recognise the need for the steps which the Government have had to take. You will forgive me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if in replying to the Debate on this Bill, I remind the House of a little of my own personal background in the matter. It is not an easy matter to be the political head of the Royal Navy for five of the most strenuous war years

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  through which the Royal Navy has passed in all its history. In the years 1940 and 1941 we faced a situation when we were nearer to total defeat than perhaps at any time in the whole of our history. If we had been subjected then to defeat, we would not any of us have had the opportunity to be debating the issues now before us in this kind of free country and free assembly we have here. Perhaps, therefore, I may be excused if I ask for consideration to be given to the point of view of those who had to bear that kind of responsibility during the last great struggle, if I ask hon. Members to believe that we of that view, and the Members of the Government, approach the whole question of national service for military purposes from the point of view of the ultimate security of our country, and the liberties that we enjoy.
  It has been said on three or four occasions during the Debate that if we were to pass this Bill tonight no one would remain free in this country. I beg to rebut that argument altogether. We are meeting together in a free country, in a democratically elected Assembly asking for the passage of a Bill to secure, as far as we can, the liberties of this country for the future. It is a Bill which is limited in period, and any renewal of its terms is subject to an affirmative Resolution by Parliament. The specific approval of Parliament is required for any further period for which we may require this kind of enlistment. I do not regard that as being the end of liberty in this country. I regard it is being a step taken to maintain the liberties which we have enjoyed in the past, and which we are all determined to retain.
  So much for the general attitude we adopt towards this great human question. I want to divide what I have to say into two main sections. I should like to say, first, a few things about the several points which have been raised in the Debate. and, at the end, to make, not a new statement, but a restatement of the general case of the Government for the Bill, for it seems to have been assumed over and over again—it was assumed quite recently by my hon. Friend the Member fir Reading (Mr. Mikardo)—that the Government have not given any real statement of the reasons for the production of this Bill. Let me turn for a moment or two to the actual Debate. The right hon. Gentleman
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  the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), who seemed to be in a very jocular mood and very happy yesterday, in his presentation of his views to the House, promised general support to the Bill, but I must say that he attacked the defence policy of the Government, and its control of the Services in language which was very unmeasured and quite—I will not say violent, certainly not in tone—but certainly very drastic.
  I remember—I am sorry that he is not here for me to say this in his presence—that on one occasion during the war he was commenting to me on a speech I had made here, and he said "There is one thing on which I would like to give you a little advice"—he was very kind to me—" that is, beware of using too many adjectives." I said, "I understand, but that advice comes very strangely from you, with your great knowledge of adjectives and great perspicacity in placing each one in its right place. Why do you say that?" He said, "It is dangerous," and added, "Never forget the value of the dynamic noun." That is a little advice which I have always remembered. Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman said of the White Paper which I was responsible for producing to the House on defence policy, that it was barren, dismal, flatulent and platitudinous. I thought to myself "You see when you get let into using so many adjectives, one on top of the other, it all depends on what is the point of view." I remembered at once that in the leading article in "The Times" newspaper, at the time of the publication of the White Paper, their comment was that the White Paper was clear and comprehensive. It apparently took many weeks for the Opposition to discover that they really wanted to criticise the White, Paper at all. And the criticism of the right hon. Gentleman himself upon the White Paper has never, I think, been uttered publicly until yesterday, although the White Paper was published somewhere about 14th or 15th February.
  Mr. C. Davies: This is, as we all know, a most important occasion. Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman where are the Prime Minister and other Members of the Cabinet on this grave occasion?
  Mr. Alexander: I am quite certain that with the weight of public business now, every one of them is doing his duty.

  1953
  The right hon, Gentleman the Member for Woodford raised one or two points of very special—
  Mr. Stubbs: Where is he?
  Mr. Alexander: I hope that my hon. Friend will allow me to make my own speech, as far as possible. The right hon. Gentleman raised one or two points which I would like to answer. He asked, for example, with regard to the general question which is raised so often of the misuse of manpower in the Forces, what was the actual proportion of men in the Navy, ashore and afloat? I looked into the matter and I found that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty had, in the course of the Debate on the Navy Estimates, given that exact information, from which it would appear that 442 per cent. of the present personnel of the Navy are ashore on ordinary shore duties, compared with 42 per cent. in 1921. I give that date—
  Captain Marsden: Those figures relate to some 20 years ago. We are asking for the figures at the present time.
  Mr. Alexander: The hon. and gallant Gentleman did not, perhaps, quite catch what I said. I said that the percentage ashore today, performing ordinary shore duties, is 44 per cent, of the present Force, compared with 42 per cent in 1921. That was the figure given by my hon. Friend some days ago, on the Navy Estimates. Forty per cent. of the present strength is afloat. The balance of about 15 per cent. are engaged in three services which were either almost non-existent or did not exist at all in 1921. These are the expanded Fleet Air Arm establishments, combined operations, and the Royal Marine commandos. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will feel that he has now got the information he needs.
  The right hon. Gentleman also referred to the cost of the Services this year and made another onslaught, in that part of his speech, in regard to mismanagement. He said that if he had got at them with a red pencil he could have saved scores and scores of millions on the Service Estimates. It is only right, therefore, that I should refresh the memory of the House of Commons. I think they have already been informed by me and the Service Ministers of the
  1954
  true position. It is true that the total cost of the three Services, and the Ministry of Supply services to the Forces, reaches the total of £899 million for the financial year beginning today, but nearly £119 million of that is entirely composed of terminal charges which will not recur. They include payments of bonuses, and leave allowances to men who are demobilised, terminal payments on war contracts, and the like. Of the rest of the charge of £899 million, another £40 million can, quite rightly and properly, be deducted from anything connected with current maintenance of the Forces by the expenditure incurred upon such services as the administration of the Polish Resettlement Corps and upon such charges in research and development as can properly be apportioned to civil uses such as civil aviation, and so on. Therefore, the actual net cost of the Forces for the coming financial year is only about—it is still a very large sum—£740 million. That is, compared with the previous financial year, 1945–46, a reduction of something like 45 per cent.
  We are sometimes charged with not having made a sufficient gesture with regard to disarmament. In the course of his remarks, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) spoke of our not having proved to him that we were willing to act as if our faith was in the future of the United Nations organisation. I do not need to answer a great many points of his speech, which I thought were most capably answered today by my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), but I will say to my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead that it would not be the first time by any means that a Government in office in the last quarter of a century or more has been asked to show its faith in some existing or future international organisation by engaging in unilateral disarmament.[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am not asking for those cheers. I am merely desiring to establish the facts in fairness to the hon. Member for Gateshead. However much I might differ from his presentation of the case, I know that he has very great experience in connection with international organisations. I must say to him that I have been unable to find evidence in the period between the wars, that unilateral disarmament or disarmament by one country in greater ratio to another, was a real aid

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  to developing collective security accepted by all.
  Mr. Zilliacus rose—
  Mr. Alexander: I do not think my hon. Friend would want me to give way. I want to assure him that it is my contention that while we need, at all costs, to keep as our central objective the prevention of war, and to assist in that prevention of war by developing in the, highest degree collective security backed by all the people who have put their names as signatories for their countries to the Charter of the United Nations, so it is absolutely essential that we shall not go in for unilateral disarmament but for disarmament pro rata right through the whole organisation.
  Mr. Zilliacus: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the 10 year rule applied in 1919 was unilateral disarmament, and, if not, whether he can give an assurance tonight that the Government have given instructions to the fighting Services to frame their annual Estimates on the assumption that we will not be involved in a great war within 10 years and that we need not prepare for war against either the Soviet Union or the United States? If he gives me that assurance, I will vote for the Bill. Otherwise I will not.
  Mr. Alexander: I would say at once that for my part I am not willing to give such an instruction as that to the Chiefs of Staff until I see more clearly what is the outcome of current negotiations and the development of the United Nations organisation as it now exists. No one could be more anxious than myself—and every Member of the Government will be of the same opinion—to support the United Nations organisation up to the hilt, but I am not—I say it frankly to all my hon. Friends—in favour of unilateral disarmament, because I have had experience of where that led us before.
  I would like to say a word to my hon. Friend the Member for North Hendon (Mrs. Ayrton Gould), who said in the course of the Debate that she was convinced that this Bill ought to cover the call-up of women as well as men. I want to say on that that there is no need for the Government to ask for such powers If we look at our experience during the war when we had most valuable assistance
  1956
  from women in the Forces, we find that nevertheless with that great force of women, they were not able to perform for the Forces more than about 10 per cent. of their functions. We had just about 10 per rent of women in the Armed Forces. We see no reason at the present moment for, and no possibility of absorbing, a greater percentage of women in the Forces now than round about that 10 per cent. I would not bind myself to a half or one per cent., but not more than that, and there will be no difficulty in obtaining that number of women by voluntary recruitment If we were to call up women at the same rate as men, on the lines suggested by the hon. Member for North Hendon, we should have a very large surplus of women not required for the Forces themselves, and that would then be followed by the suggestion ipso facto that they should be directed to some other form of employment. The Government, in spite of what has been suggested on both sides of the House from time to time, have no intention whatsoever of introducing, or supporting, any form of industrial conscription.
  A number of references have been made, from different parts of the House, about a subject we have heard a great deal of before, namely, waste of manpower in the Forces. The difficulty, in a time of rapid rundown and changing functions in what was a great wartime force, in preventing waste of manpower, is fairly well recognised by all those who have had connection with this matter. This has been said before by the Prime Minister. Nevertheless, I would have the House observe, first of all, that the running down of the Forces, in this case, has been much more smoothly done, with far less disturbance, and far less general unemployment than was the case before. While it may be true that in different places, pockets, or centres, there is still some misuse of manpower, I consider that we are already taking the proper and requisite steps to deal with this question. A great many suggestions have been made, among them a suggestion which has been followed up, perhaps not in the way some of my hon. Friends desire, but which has resulted in all three Service Ministers undertaking to appoint an inquiry committee in each Department, which will include an industrialist and a trade unionist. I do not recognise the reason' for the suggestion

  1957
  made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford yesterday, that some form of Parliamentary Committee should be set up on the lines of the Select Committee on National Expenditure during the war. My recollection is—and I hope that I am not misrepresenting him—that he himself was always very much opposed to that particular form of Committee during the war, and that on many occasions he found himself very much at variance with their operations.
  Mr. Churchill: Naturally, as a Member of the Government I resented criticism, especially when it was well informed, but I was very glad that the Committee were in action during the war, and I must say that on the whole the services that they rendered are worthy of record.
  Mr. Alexander: I expect that a good many members of that Committee, who remember the strictures upon them from time to time by the right hon. Gentleman—of which I am not complaining—
  Mr. Churchill: I was defending the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Alexander: —would have been quite surprised yesterday to have heard the right hon. Gentleman's tribute to their work. I may add that there is always an opportunity on the Estimates Debates to take up these matters, and that there exist the Public Accounts Committee and the Estimates Committee, in which further steps to protect the interests of the House can be taken.
  I have been asked, on several occasions, on this question of manpower, how we can justify the demand for this Bill in relation to the large forces that are still in existence. I have been asked whether I can give any assurance at all that those forces will continue to be decreased. I must remind the House that compared with the figure, in December, 1946, of about 1,427,000, the figure will be reduced, by 31st March, 1948, to 1,087,000—a saving of 340,000. I can assure the House further that these forces will continue to be reduced; it must not be assumed by my hon. Friends that this is a sort of static figure of forces which must be maintained indefinitely in future.
  Therefore, I would like to add to that, what is the general aim of the Government in this matter of forces. It is that we
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  should obtain a regular force of minimum numbers and maximum efficiency. [HON. MEMBERS: "What numbers?"] If hon. Members will allow me to finish—a, small regular force of minimum numbers, trained to the highest point of efficiency, to be supplemented by a large reserve. We consider that, in the light of the changing world circumstances, and of the great possibility of new projectiles, weapons and scientific development, it is not necessary to aim at and budget for large permanent regular forces. What is essential, when it comes, if it ever should unfortunately come, to a major war breaking out again, and coming with all the suddenness with which major wars will come in the future, is that we should have adequate forces available which will not require long training.
  Mr. C. Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman be more specific? Surely, this must have been considered by the Cabinet. What does he mean by a small force of well-trained men, and what does he mean by a large force of reserves? Cannot he give us figures?
  Mr. Alexander: I was coming to that, in answer to another question upon that point, and if the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) will allow me to develop my case in my own way, he will get his information more quickly. I have been asked by Members on the Conservative Benches, as well as on these Benches, whether I could give some kind of figures for, say, 1954. That is the ultimate year quoted, and I think that an hon. Member opposite asked what, under this plan, would then be the number of men in uniform.
  I can say that, by 1954, the number of national service men in uniform under training during that call-up period would not exceed 300,000 on their way to the reserve, and the number of men trailed by that date, who would be in the reserve for their five and a half years period, would be 700,000, but what the actual size of the regular force at that time will be, I cannot possibly say, because I do not know what will be the actual recruitment of Regulars in the intervening period.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give some indication of what is the maximum figure which the Government, on the advice of

  1959
  the Service chiefs, are aiming at? Cannot he give some kind of ceiling on this matter.
  Mr. Alexander: I think that it would be quite impossible to give what would be the actual ceiling of regular forces, and I will tell the House why. I nave already explained to the House, in dealing with the White Paper on Defence, that the year 1947–48 had to be treated by myself, in the few weeks before presenting the Defence White Paper, as a transitional period. I also indicated to the House that it was vital and urgent to get a longterm policy examined by the responsible officials and staff officers. I have given them a directive under a ceiling—not a ceiling which I was committed to, but a ceiling under which they were to plan for a long-term policy. I have not yet had the report under that directive which I gave, and, therefore, it would be quite impossible, in any case, to give an answer in the terms desired by the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. S. O. Davies).
  Mr. Frank Byers: Is it a fact that the Government do not know what the commitments are to be, or what the size of the voluntary Army is to be, and therefore, are basing their future policy upon an intake of conscripts?
  Mr. Alexander: As regards the commitments, I am rather surprised that Members of the House who have now listened to Debates on manpower on two or three occasions do not know what our commitments are. Our commitments are set out in paragraph 9 of the White Paper on Defence, and they were explained again in some detail by me on 20th March in this House. Those commitments remain. The hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers) said that we do not know what is to be the size of our regular Forces, and that brings me to the particular point which provides the most important argument far the Bill. I think it must stand out quite clearly to all hon. Members who have listened to these Debates that the Government have shown that they cannot obtain by voluntary methods the number of men which would be required to fulfil those commitments. I have already referred to voluntary enlistment, along with our present experience of recruitment.
  We have been asked from time to time during the Debate to deal with the matter
  1960
  by making conditions of service in the Armed Forces more attractive. Certainly as regards pay there has never been such an attractive peace time pay code for the Forces as that which was adopted about 12 months ago. That has failed to get a sufficient response. As has already been said with regard to the Army, there will be, in the course of the next two years or rather less than two years now, a total run out of nearly 700,000 men. I add this, that the regular components in the three Services today are, roughly, about 110,000 in the Army, rather less than 70,000 in the Air Force, and in the Navy—where they have had the advantage of some recruitment for regular service right through the war through their junior entries—there are rather less than 90,000.
  Mr. Churchill: Is the right hon. Gentleman going to answer my question?
  Mr. Alexander: I have answered the number of questions.
  Mr. Churchill: How many men sleep ashore and how many afloat in the Navy?
  Mr. Alexander: The information has already been given on the Navy Estimates and I repeated the information tonight. Between now and 1949 quite a proportion of those existing regular forces will be in course of demobilization.
  I come now to deal with our need for the Bill and partly to answer some of my hon. Friends who have raised questions as to the period of training. The number of men that we have had in our regular forces, knowing we shall have to maintain certain commitments such as the occupation of Germany for some time to come in addition to the ordinary duties of the forces abroad, will be such that we may have to call upon certain sections of those who are called up for training, after they have done 12 months, to do the remainder of their Service overseas. I heard great objection taken to that, particularly this afternoon by my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), but I would say that it will be done only for a period, to tide over this particular stage when there is such a run down of the regular forces, and when we cannot meet the position unless we can stimulate still further recruitment of volunteers for the regular services.
  Before I go further I should like to mention one two other points raised in

  1961
  the Debate. I had a particularly interesting question put to me as to the manning of the anti-aircraft defences of the United Kingdom. I gather it was the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) who put this question. He asked whether the men of the anti-aircraft defences—which by the way will be vital in the future defence of our country and will require now a normal allocation of seven times as many men as we had in 1930—will be manned by men called up under this Act. It is our intention that those who are called up for training and who have been during their training in the anti-aircraft units will also be posted as far as possible to the anti-aircraft reserve and they will continue in that. There will also be in the reserve voluntary recruits to the Territorial Army, in which we hope to recruit many of those who have seen anti-aircraft service during the war, and who will be there to help to stiffen and generally to help with the training of those forces. I hope that meets the point that has been raised.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) asked me to say what are the strategical requirements to be met by the Bill. I think I have already indicated that the defence commitments of this country are set out in paragraph 9
  of the White Paper which contains a list of the strategic requirements to be met. I repeat that the regular forces in the foreseeable future will be insufficiently sustained by voluntary recruitment to carry out those commitments. National service men will be needed to help out the regulars in meeting the overseas commitments unless the international situation improves beyond what we should be justified in assuming as a safe basis for planning. We must have this Bill in time to enable us to plan ahead, but it is the primary strategic requirement of the safety of the United Kingdom base, which in my opinion justifies this Bill. For that requirement we need trained reserves to man our defences at short notice in emergency. Regular engagements of the prewar type can only build up trained reserves very slowly and in small numbers. I ask the House to believe with me that the Government desire, above all, to prevent war. We are looking only for the security of our country and our ultimate power to support the general development of the United Nations organisation. For those purposes I ask the House to give a Second Reading to the Bill.
  Question put, "That the word now stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 386; Noes, 85.

  Division No. 117.]

  AYES.

  [10.0 p.m.

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

  Adams, W. T, (Hammersmith, South)

  Boardman, H.

  Corvedale, Viscount

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Crawley, A.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

  Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

  Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

  Bower, N.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Armagh)

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

  Amory, D. Heathcoat

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

  Crowder, Capt. John E.

  Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Dairies, P.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Bullock, Capt M.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Burke, W. A.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Butcher, H. W.

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

  De la Bère, R.

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Callaghan, James

  Delargy, H. J

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Carson, E.

  Diamond, J

  Balfour, A.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Digby, S. W.

  Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

  Challen, C.

  Dobbie, W.

  Barton, C.

  Champion, A. J.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Baxter A. B.

  Channon, H.

  Donovan, T.

  Beamish, Maj. T. V H

  Chater, D.

  Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Drewe, C.

  Belcher, J. W.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F J

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Bennett, Sir P

  Clitherow, Dr. R.

  Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Berry, H.

  Cobb, F. A.

  Dumpleton, C. W.

  Beswick, F,

  Collick, P.

  Durbin, E. F. M

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A (Ebbw Vale)

  Collindridge, F.

  Dye, S.

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Eccles, D. M.

  Binns, J.

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Blackburn, A. R

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

  Peart, Capt. T. F.

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Keeling, E. H.

  Polo, Brig. G. H. M.

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. Waller

  Keenan, W.

  Pickthorn, K.

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Pitman, I. J.

  Evans, John (Ogmore)

  Key, C. W.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  King, E. M.

  Pool., Major Cecil (Lichfield)

  Ewart, R.

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

  Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

  Farthing, W. J.

  Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Popplewell, E.

  Field, Capt. W. J.

  Kinley, J.

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Kirby, B. V.

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Fletcher, W. (Bury)

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Price, M. Philips

  Foot, M. M.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

  Fox, Sir G.

  Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

  Procter, W. T

  Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H

  Fraser, T (Hamilton)

  Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)

  Raikes H. V.

  Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford).

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Ramsay, Maj. S

  Freeman, Peter (Newport)

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Ranger, J.

  Fyfe, Rt. Han. Sir D. P. M.

  Leonard, W.

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Gage, C

  Leslie, J. R.

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Gaitskell, H. T. N

  Levy, B. W.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Gammans, L. D.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Renton, D.

  Gibbins, J.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Rhodes, H.

  Gilzean, A.

  Lindsay, K. M. (Comb'd Eng. Univ.

  Robens, A.

  Glanville, J. E (Consett)

  Linstead, H. N.

  Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland

  Glyn, Sir R.

  Lipson, D. L.

  Rogers, G. H. R

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Ropner, Col. L.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Logan, D. G.

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Graham-Little, Sir E.

  Low, Brig. A. R. W

  Saltar, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

  Lucas, Major Sir J.

  Sanderson, Sir F.

  Greenwood, A W. J. (Heywood)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Savory, Prof. D. L.

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Scott, Lord W.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  McAllister, G.

  Scott-Elliot, W.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

  MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

  Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Macdonald, Sir P. (l. of Wight)

  Sharp, Granville

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden

  Mack, J. D.

  Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

  Gunter, R. J

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Shawcress, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

  Guy, W. H.

  McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Shephard, S. (Newark)

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Hale, Leslie

  McLeavy, F.

  Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.

  Hall, W. G

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Simmons, C. J.

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C

  Hardman, D. R

  Macpherson, T. (Remford)

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Hardy, E. A.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Harris, H. Wilson

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Snow, Capt. J. W.

  Harrison, J.

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Spence, H. R.

  Haughton, S. G

  Marquand, H. A.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

  Haworth, J.

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Steele, T.

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Maude, J. C.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Herbert, Sir A P.

  Medland, H. M.

  Strachey, J.

  Hicks, G.

  Medlicott, F.

  Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Mellish, R. J.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Hobson, C R.

  Mellor, Sir J.

  Stroll, Dr. B.

  Hogg, Hon. Q

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

  Hollis, M. C.

  Molson, A. H. E..

  Studholme, H. G.

  Holman, P.

  Montague, F.

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Holmes, H E. (Hemsworth)

  Moody, A. S.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Holmes, Sir J Stanley (Harwich)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Swingler, S.

  Hope, Lord J

  Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Pdd't'n, S.)

  Hoy, J.

  Moyle, A.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Hubbard, T.

  Nayler, T. E

  Teeling, William

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G R. (Ed'b'gh, E)

  Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N J

  Nicholson, G.

  Thorneycroft, G. E, P. (Monmouth)

  Hurd, A.

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Hutchison, Lt -Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Darby)

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glastaw, C.)

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Thurtle, E.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  O'Brien, T.

  Titterington, M. F.

  Irving, W. J.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Tolley, L.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Janner, B.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Touche, G. C

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Paget, R. T.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A C. (Shipley)

  Palmar, A. M. F.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Jonas, J. H. (Bolton)

  Parker, J.

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Warbey, W. N.

  1964

  1965

  Ward, Hon. G. R.

  Wigg, Col. G. E.

  Wilson, J. H.

  Watson, W. M.

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Weitzman, D.

  Wilkes, L.

  Wise, Major F. J.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Woodburn, A

  West, D. G.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Wyatt, W.

  Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  York, C.

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. H. U.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  While, Sir D. (Fareham)

  Willis, E.

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

  Wilmet, Rt. Hon. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

  Mr. R. J. Taylor and Mr. Pearson.

  NOES.

  Allighan, Garry

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Hudson, J. H. (Eating, W.)

  Royle, C.

  Ayles, W. H.

  John, W.

  Sargood, R.

  Barstow, P. G.

  Kendall, W. D.

  Scollan, T.

  Batlley, J. R.

  Kenyon, C.

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Bowen, R.

  Lang, G.

  Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Longden, F.

  Smith, C. (Colchester)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Solley, L. J.

  Burden, T. W.

  McGovern, J.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Stephen, C.

  Byers, Frank

  Messer, F.

  Stokes, R. R.

  Carmichael, James

  Mikardo, Ian.

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Cooks, F. S.

  Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Collins, V. J.

  Monslow, W.

  Tiffany, S.

  Cooper, Wing-Cmdr. G.

  Morley, R.

  Timmons, J.

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Usborne, Henry

  Cove, W. G.

  Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Dagger, G.

  Murray, J. D.

  Viant, S. P.

  Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

  Nally, W.

  Wadsworth, G.

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Watkins, T. E.

  Forman, J. C.

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Foster, W. (Wigan)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Piratin, P.

  Williams, W. R (Heston)

  George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

  Yates, V. F.

  George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Price-White, Lt.-Col. D

  Zilliacus, K.

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Randall, H. E.

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Rankin, J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Richards R.

  Mr. S. O. Davis and

  Grierson, E.

  Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

  Mrs. Manning.

  Gruffydd, Prof. W. J

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tuesday, 15th April.

  NATIONAL SERVICE [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.—(King's Recommendation signified.)
  [Major Milner in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to confine the operation of the National Service Acts to male British subjects and to service in the armed forces of the Crown; to make provision as to the terms and conditions of such service and as to the period for which those Acts shall continue in operation; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred in consequence of the passing of that Act by the Minister of Labour and National Service,
  1966
  a Secretary of State or the Admiralty and of any increase consequential on the passing of that Act of the expenses payable under Section nineteen of the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, 1944."—[Mr. Alexander.]
  10.15 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I should like to know from the Financial Secretary whether the Committee is to get any explanation of why the Government want this money. I am bound to say, having listened in virtual silence for two days to this Debate, expecting that the Minister of Defence would explain to the House, and particularly to his own side of the House, what was the necessity for introducing this Bill at this moment, and having been most signally disappointed—
  The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman cannot, of course, refer to the details of the Bill; he must confine himself to the Motion.
  Mr. S. Silverman: I have not been conscious that I have so far referred to any

  1967
  detail of the Bill, Major Milner, but we are being asked to vote a lot of money in support of a Bill when no necessity for the Bill or for the Motion has been offered to the Committee at all; indeed the Money Resolution has been formally moved without a single word of explanation, and I should have thought that was treating the Committee with supreme contempt—a contempt which the voting on the Second Reading does not entitle my hon. Friend to display. There is considerable disquiet in this Committee, there is considerable disquiet in the country, and I sincerely and earnestly say to my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Front Bench that if they wish to carry the country with them in this inroad they have made upon our constitution, then the Committee and this House and the country are entitled to a far better attempt at explanation than so far we have received.
  Mr. Frank Byers: I would also like to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for an explanation about the Money Resolution to this Bill. We heard from the Minister of Defence that we were to have 700,000 reserves in 1954. Does the money voted by this Committee cover the necessary equipment for those reserves? Could we have an explanation of that?
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): No.
  Mr. Byers: The Minister of Defence says "No." Is it not for this Committee to inquire into this matter on this occasion? Can we have an explanation? I listened to a great many of the speeches about these reserves. As an Army officer of some experience I am extremely worried about having 700,000 reserves if they are to be equipped to the standard of equipment which I had to use in 1939, and I think this Committee, if it fulfils its responsibilities, should have a proper explanation of what is to happen. Furthermore, can we have some explanation from the Financial Secretary upon what this money is to be spent? I must say I am amazed at the equanimity with which this Bill has been accepted by officers and men who have served throughout the war in the Armed Forces, and I think we deserve,
  1968
  after six years of service which we have had, an explanation from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury of how this money is to be used.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I think the Committee will agree with me that no discourtesy at all is intended by the mere fact that no one rose at this Box to introduce this Money Resolution. It is quite normal after a Debate, particularly a Debate lasting two days, for this part of our business to be largely formal. Where any hon. Member rising in his place asks for an explanation, it has not on a single occasion within my recollection been denied. Quite briefly, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), and in reply to the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers), I can give the explanation for which they asked. It is contained in the fact that we have, by a large majority, just agreed to the Second Reading of the Bill. That being so, obviously a certain amount of expenditure will arise in the course of years when this Bill becomes an Act.
  The answer to the hon. Member for North Dorset, and in part to my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne, is contained in paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum attached to the Bill. The charge on the Exchequer will arise when these men begin to flow out of the Forces, and go into the Reserve. As the Committee now knows from the Debate we have had, over a period there will be a certain charge arising because of that. It may well be that, although a great deal of equipment will be there, additions to that equipment will be needed from time to time, and expenditure will have to be made on that. Year by year the House of Commons will have complete control over such expenditure through the usual form of Estimates, and in addition there will be some expenditure which is envisaged under the Third Schedule for medical examination of those in these Forces. I think that with that explanation, which I hope the Committee will think adequate, we may now be given the Money Resolution.
  Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

  TRAFALGAR ESTATES (Re-committed) Bill
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]

  TRAFALGAR ESTATES (Re-committed) Bill

    CLAUSE 1.—(Termination of Nelson annuity.)
    10.24 p.m.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Before we part with Clause 1 of this Bill, there are one or two things which my hon. Friends and I would like to say in reference to it. This Clause brings to an end the pension granted 140 odd years ago in perpetuity to the descendants of the great admiral Lord Nelson. It seems to us to be a very strange fact that on the very day when this Committee is bringing to an end a pension granted to the collateral descendants of the most illustrious of our volunteer sailors, the House should have passed a compulsory service Bill introduced by a Socialist Government and passed largely by Conservative votes. One of the main objects of the Nelson Act was to encourage volunteers. This should be remembered at this moment, when this House is about to commit what many of us regard as an act of disloyalty to the finest of our national traditions. It is particularly relevant to the Clause we are now considering, to recall that the Nelson Act was introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day in these words, that it would be,
    "the means of inducing others in the Royal Navy to follow Lord Nelson's brilliant example."
    And the great Wilberforce, in this House of Commons, said that he viewed the grant, to which Clause 1 relates
    "not so much as a provision for the family of Lord Nelson but as a pledge of national liberality held out to our Navy to encourage an imitation of that hero's example."
    I do not think it inappropriate that we should be considering this Clause on an evening, which has brought to a conclusion a Debate on a compulsory service Bill.
    I would like also to remind the Committee, on this Clause, that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing, in 1806, that Measure which we are now
    1970
    bringing to an end, used words which we ought in particular to remember at a time like this, when so much that is of great value in the world is being swept away, not only by our own action but by outside forces. He said that there was no desire that operated more powerfully upon the minds of many men than a desire to found a family, and that perhaps there was no class of men among whom this desire formed a greater stimulant to action than those who composed the officers of the Royal Navy. He ended by saying:
    "What could serve as a greater encouragement than the example which this Bill provides of Lord Nelson's merits laying the foundations of a distinguished family?"
    We tonight ought to recognise the fact that we are tonight bringing to an end the material means by which that family can be maintained in dignity and honour. It may be right for the House to do what it is doing; what could never be right is that it should not recognise exactly what it is doing. Times have changed—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]—but there has not necessarily been an improvement in the country, or in the things that really matter, the things by which history will judge this generation. Now the Government have to rely on other sanctions in order to fill the Royal Navy, and we have joined with them in applying those sanctions tonight.
    We ask that this Clause be rejected on three grounds which I will briefly state. Firstly, we do not regard this Bill or this Clause as necessary, remembering the rushed system of legislation under which we are living. The Lord President of the Council said, not long ago, that the British legislative programme could not be reduced in any way, without seriously prejudicing the national interest. We cannot regard taking up the time of the House of Commons with this Bill, as in any way advancing the national interest. Secondly, we reject this Clause because it provides the shameful spectacle of the trustees of a great and historic trust—the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the First Lord of the Admiralty, the Treasurer of the Navy, who is now the Paymaster-General—not only condoning a breach of an historic trust, but themselves initiating it in the House of Commons. Thirdly, we reject these proposals because, while no-one can dispute the right of every Parliament to do what it likes, this is not a question of, right but of behaviour.

    1971
    The Parliament of 1806, mindful of the debt Great Britain was under to Lord Nelson, conscious that his victory marked a turning point in our national destiny, and realising quite plainly that the trust was to be settled, not upon those nearest and dearest to his heart, but upon his collateral descendants, none the less intended that this Trust should be permanent and that the grant should be for all time to whoever bore the honoured name and title of Lord Nelson. Now the Government are using their great majority for purposes which we regard as mean and unworthy. I hope that before the Committee passes this Clause it will remember this: if we are so unmindful of the intention of previous Parliaments, and if we have so little regard to what our great and historic predecessors intended, future generations may show the same contempt for the present House of Commons. I hope that in view of these considerations the Committee will refuse to vote for this Clause.
    10.30 p.m.
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: I do not wish to occupy the Committee long as the principle embodied in this Clause has been fully debated on the Second Reading of this Bill, but I think it is necessary that something should be said. This annuity was the free gift of Parliament; it was given after full deliberation and debate, and in the most formal manner in which Parliament could make such a gift. This Clause simply terminates that annuity. Of course Parliament has the power to do what is now proposed. Parliament has the right to go back on anything, as easily as it can do it in the first place. We do not quarrel with the proposition that what is now proposed is legal. But the question is whether it is right to go back on that solemn undertaking. That is the question, and it is a question to which we answer an emphatic "No." There is, of course, something to be said for altering the present provision. There is much to be said, in view of the change of times, for the view that this annuity should be commuted, as other annuities of similar character given in the past have been commuted, with the agreement of all parties. If there were any question of putting forward proposals for commuting this annuity I do not think there
    1972
    would be any difference of opinion on the subject in any quarter of the Committee. But the proposal in this Clause is simply to confiscate the annuity at the end of what must be a very few years. The Nelson family, so far I as know, have maintained a dignified silence throughout the proceedings on this Bill. This is simply because they do not wish to haggle about financial niceties in this connection. I have in the same spirit refrained from putting down any Amendment to this Clause. But I hope that the Committee will divide against the Clause and that we shall register our objection to the principle contained in it.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: On a point of Order, Mr. Beaumont. May I call your attention and the attention of the House to the fact that not one representative of the Admiralty is present on this important occasion?
    The Deputy-Chairman: That is not a point of Order.
    Mr. Charles Williams: I regret that the Committee has been called upon to vote for this Clause. I am glad, however, that the Committee stage is being taken on the Floor of the House so that the largest possible number of Members may be directly responsible for the insertion of this Clause in the Bill. I cannot help thinking after the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) that there has been in relation to this Bill a certain amount of what I may say was not unexpected meanness on the part of the Government. I say "not unexpected" because I have now taken part in a few election meetings and invariably one encounters a rather curious, mean type of Socialist mind among those at the back of the meeting. They will get up and raise points on matters such as are relevant to the purpose of this Clause.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Before the hon. Member makes any further remarks, may I point out that he is rather away from the Clause?
    Mr. Williams: I was leading up to the effect of this Clause. We are taking away, in this Clause, the power of granting the pension at the end of two lives; and I was

    1973
    saying that I have been asked again and again, whether I am in favour of withdrawing that pension. I believe that is what is in the Clause. I have been asked this question again and again at public meetings and I have, again and again, said that I believe that this is one of the pension schemes that it would be well to keep going. If it is taken away, a number of those Socialists who attend meetings will no longer be able to hold up the pension as an example. At many of their best meetings they will be deprived of this point. From one point of view that is the only good thing I can see about the Clause; otherwise it is thoroughly mean, and typical of the Government of the day.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Since hon. Gentlemen opposite have repeated the arguments which were stated on the Second Reading of the Bill, I think it only right that some of the arguments made on the other side should also be stated. Hon. Members opposite have based their objection to the Clause on three grounds. The first ground is that it is a breach of faith with the Parliament of 1806. The second is that there should have been an offer of commutation of the pension; and the third, put forward by the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), is that this proposal is an example of meanness on the part of this Government. With regard to the first argument, it is completely foolish, for the Parliament of 1806 was not in possession of the facts. That Parliament was not in full possession of the facts about the express desire of Lord Nelson as to how the money voted should be used in future times.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Is the hon. Member not aware of the fact that it was Lord Nelson's express request that the property and title should go together in the succession provided in the 1806 Act?
    Mr. Foot: I contest that statement. Everyone knows that the last statement made by Lord Nelson was a demand that any help given by the State should go, not to the descendants, but to Lady Hamilton. Everyone knows, moreover, that there was a considerable battle between Nelson and the Admiralty, for, like many good sailors, he did not always agree with the Admiralty. Everyone knew that took place, and everyone knows
    1974
    that there were people in the Admiralty who wanted to suppress the facts about Nelson's express desire that any benefits should be given to Lady Hamilton. The Parliament of 1806 did not act as it should have done; it did not carry out the wish of Nelson, and if he were with us today, he would whole-heartedly support the Government.
    10.45 p.m.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: The hon. Gentleman has just referred to what Lord Nelson would have done had he been here tonight. My hon. Friend says he would have supported the Government. I would like to ask if he is referring to the question now before the House, or to the one on which we have just voted?
    Mr. Foot: Lord Nelson would have supported the Government on many of its Measures.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: The hon. Member has just said that if Lord Nelson were here tonight, he would have supported the Government. May I ask if it is possible for a Peer of the Realm to vote in this House?
    Mr. Foot: Not only he, but Lady Hamilton as well would vote with us, but the person we would not have in the Lobbies with us, would be the first Lord Nelson to receive this pension. He was guilty of great meanness, and more, because he was perfectly well aware of the express wish of the great Lord Nelson. Yet he was unwilling to pay what was due to Lady Hamilton, and she was buried in poverty in France. The great Lord Nelson would have believed that that debt should have been paid long since.
    As regards the argument that this pension should have been commuted, it should be remembered that an offer for commutation was made some forty or fifty years ago to Lord Nelson. An offer was made to other persons, including Lord Rodney, and those people were patriotic enough, some fifty years ago, to accept the commutation; and if the Nelson family had been as generous and public-spirited, they would have accepted the offer of commutation which was made to them years ago. They would have ended the matter honourably, and would have saved the State some considerable sums. The hon.

    1975
    Member for Torquay said he had been asked at public meetings about this matter. In this connection I would like to say that I represent a naval constituency, and I, too, have been asked questions and have heard statements made on this subject. But I should not like to repeat the remarks to this House which have been used by some of the people at those meetings because the language would not bear repetition. There are naval pensioners who have not received the money which they should have received.—[An HON. MEMBER: "And are not receiving it now."] They are not receiving it now, perhaps, but I hope the position will be improved. According to some people Parliaments during the last 140 years have behaved meanly to the Nelson family. They have not done so. This House, 140 years ago, behaved meanly towards the memory of Lady Hamilton, and when there is a vote for this Bill, it will be a vote to wipe out the wrong which was done 140 years ago.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I think that the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Michael Foot) has answered adequately the speech made by the hon. Member for Luton.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: In view of the internationally adverse consequences of that description, I should be grateful for being given my proper constituency.
    Mr. Foot: And will the right hon. Gentleman also apologise to the hon Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey)?
    Mr. Warbey: On a point of Order. In view of the past record of the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) will the Financial Secretary dissociate me clearly from that hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: May I apologise to both hon. Members? Perhaps honour will be then satisfied. I think I may say that my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport answered, pretty adequately, the points made by the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd). But, nevertheless, as there was an interjection from that side of the Committee asking whether someone from these Benches was not going to reply I will briefly underline
    1976
    what my hon. Friend below the Gangway said. I should, firstly, correct the statement made by the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford when he said that the trustees for this pension had, in some way, gone back on their trust. Now I thought that I, at least, if not my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made it perfectly clear, when we were dealing with this Bill in its earlier stages, that the trustees have nothing whatever to do with the £5,000 per year pension received by the present holder of the title. The trustees set up functions under Clause 2, which deals with the Trafalgar Estates and, as I think the Committee knows very well, the estates were bought with further moneys which were granted by Parliament, namely £90,000 to which was later added another £9,000, making nearly £100,000. The trustees' job was to look after and administer on behalf of the trust, which was set up under the 1806 Act, the estate which was bought with that money granted by Parliament. We are dealing here, in Clause 1, with the perpetual pension of £5,000 a year which was granted to the holder of the Nelson title. The hon. Gentleman's allegation is therefore unfair and untrue, and I hope he will withdraw it.
    It is not true, either, that Mr. Speaker or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or others who are trustees for the estates, have in any way gone back on their trust. As a matter of fact, when we come to Clause 2, if it is necessary, I can tell the Committee that the Nelson family is going to gain. There will be benefit to the Nelson family under the provisions set forth in Clause 2. But we are dealing now with Clause 1, and I would like to say, in furtherance of what the hon. Member for Devonport said, that it is quite true that an offer to commute this pension was made in 1889—twenty-seven years purchase was then offered. And although others who received perpetual pensions at that time, for example, the Rodney family, thought fit to accept commutation, the Nelson family refused and, as a result, have since received from the public purse no less a sum than £285,000. To me, it is grossly unjust that now, at this date, they should be permitted to come along and do what they, or the holder of the title in 1889 refused to do, namely to commute.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: May I ask if it is not really unfair for the right hon. Gentleman to quote these gross sums? If he held his present office for ten years, would it be fair to say he received from the State ten times his actual salary? He knows perfectly well this gross sum is subject to a high rate of taxation.
    Mr. Glenvil, Hall: Of course it would be fair to multiply my present salary by ten and say that is what I have received by way of salary. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I realise very well that taxation is penal. But in previous years it was comparatively very low. Therefore, I think there is little or nothing in that point. As a matter of fact, taking the pension over the period since it was first granted, the Nelson family has received more than £700,000; and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that Income Tax during most of that time was either non-existent or very modest. In the year 1887, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who introduced this Bill, was born—[Interruption]—right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite started this; we did not. The allegations have come from that side of the Committee. In the year 1887, a Select Committee which did not have a single Socialist among its members, came to the conclusion that this pension should cease. It said that at most it should be continued for one life only. We have doubled that, and are allowing this pension to go on for, at any rate, two lives. May I, as the hon Gentleman has done some quoting, quote from s leaderette which appeared in the "Observer"—not a Socialist journal—on 8th December last. They said:
    "The decision of the Government to end the Nelson family pension will find some support in a series of Nelson letters which come up for sale at Sotheby's on 17th December. These letters directly refer to the Admiral's pension, and are written to George Rose, then Treasurer of the Navy. They show, as Mr. Wilson Harris pointed out, in the best speech of the Commons debate, that Nelson was concerned for the security of Emma and Horatia, and not with his parson brother in Norfolk. We cannot now, and it proved impossible then, keep Lady Hamilton solvent. Nelson himself had plenty and did not, as some think, die poor. But the nation has now paid, for nearly a century and a half, substantial sums, totalling more than £700,000, to his indirect descendants. Sometimes the privilege passed from uncle to nephew, or from brother to brother."
    This is the "Observer"—not a Socialist newspaper.
    1978
    "Is there any equity in maintaining this, a state of affairs never envisaged by Nelson himself, whose thoughts were all centred on Emma and upon his sense of responsibility to her. Were not the 102 Tories who voted for continuance regarding rather the letter of the law more than its spirit? And even as to the letter of the law, that may be faulty, since what Parliament has done, it can legally undo. The Government view that ample justice has now been done to the great Admiral's memory surely represents both equity and popular opinion."
    That is what we now say, and we ask the Committee to give us this Clause.
    Mr. Brendan Bracken: Were it not for the fact that the Financial Secretary's statement was so utterly inadequate, I would not have risen now, because there are other hon. Members of this Committee who wish to say a great deal tonight on issue. I think it is a pity, if I may say so, Mr. Beaumont, that the Financial Secretary, speaking for the Government, should rely, first of all, upon some extract from the "Observer."
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: May I say that I am sorry that I could not quote from the "Financial Times"? I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I meant no discourtesy by that. I should have been only too delighted to quote from that famous journal, if I had had the opportunity.
    Mr. Bracken: I hope the Committee will believe that I had nothing to do with this thoroughly unsolicited tribute. The right hon. Gentleman and his master, who are so fond of quoting from the "Observer," may remember that the proprietors of that paper are not at all bad at transferring sums to their future generations. In any case, I think that that article was a mean one. I was interested to note that the Financial Secretary, apart from his news cutting, was saying, "Ditto," to what was said by the hon. Member for Devon-port (Mr. Foot). The speech of the hon. Member for Devonport was full of bias, but at least it was, as a performance, more adequate than that of the Financial Secretary. The speech of the hon. Member for Devonport was full of irrelevancies. He talked a lot about the second Lord Nelson's performance. I understand that the hon. Member is a passionate devotee of the Cromwell family. They knew how to look after themselves, and before the hon. Gentleman goes into history, he had

    1979
    better look into the arrangements they made. I approach this question on different grounds—
    Mr. Stokes: What about Bernard Baruch?
    Mr. Bracken: I do not understand the relevance of that interruption by the hon. and opulent Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). I do not quite understand why he should jeer at Mr. Baruch. The hon. Member is probably richer, because Mr. Baruch is more charitable. But I must not be led away by these interruptions. I want to remind the Committee that we have certain responsibilities. We are here, tonight, tearing up a contract. Let us have no doubt about that. I am sorry to interrupt the Home Secretary. Perhaps he may be allowed to make his speech afterwards. I would remind him that this Committee has certain responsibilities, and that this tearing up of a contract is a serious matter. It affects all sorts of arrangements made by this House—
    Mr. Ungoed-Thomas: What is the contract in this case?
    Mr. Bracken: The contract is the solemn word of Parliament—
    Mr. Ungoed-Thomas: Really, that is not a contract. Let us know what the contract is in this case?
    Mr. Bracken: I have said that it is the solemn word of Parliament, and on this side of the Committee we believe that when we give our word we should keep it.
    Dr. Morgan: Do I understand that no legislation was passed by the Conservative Party which annulled previous legislation?
    Mr. Bracken: My hon. Friend, and former constituent, must not drag me away from the point I was trying to make. I am saying that this is tearing up a contract, which will have a very bad effect on the future of many of the boards and sinecures set up by the Government. It is a very melancholy fact that Lord Nelson is deprived of his pension, but we have a precedent here tonight. When all these sinecures, these boards upon boards, these monopolies with wealthy directors set up by the Socialist Party—
    11.0 p.m.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman knew that I was going to stop him, and I have stopped him.
    Mr. Bracken: I apologise, Mr. Beaumont, but you will not, perhaps, stop me before I say that we would put an end to them in the same way. Having issued that little warning, I wish to say a word or two about the only material matter in the Financial Secretary's speech. He talked about the generosity of the Government in giving a pension for two lives for Lord Nelson and his heir. Of course, he did not disclose to the Committee that both these gentlemen are nearly 90 years of age. [Interruption.] He did not disclose it tonight. If he regards such a concession as a method of defending this bilking Measure, he is entitled to his opinion, but all that remains for me to say is that it is—
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not know how, if we are going to continue this pension for these two lives, that is bilking these old gentlemen. If the right hon. Gentleman likes the word "bilk"—and no doubt he is familiar with it—that phrase might be applied to those who follow the present Lord Nelson and his heir, but it should not be said, and it should not go out to the country, that we are taking from the present holder or his heir the £5,000 a year for so long as either or both of them live. I may say that the Nelson family is a long-lived family. I say further that these facts were brought out clearly when we discussed this matter before.
    Mr. Bracken: We have been told by the Financial Secretary, in justification of his performance, that the Nelson family are a long-lived family. He admits that both of these gentlemen are nearly 90 years of age, and now he has to fall back on the argument that perhaps they will go on living a long time more. Let me say to the Financial Secretary that I do not withdraw the word "bilking." I repeat it, and I say that it does not lie in his mouth to talk as he has done tonight. If the Nelson family could get £2,000 a year free of Income Tax to keep up the house they live in, they would accept it very rapidly. [Interruption.] Yes, other people do, including many of the Coal Boards and others, but I will not go into that.
    Dr. Morgan: May I respectfully ask you, Mr. Beaumont, whether it is in Order to discuss on this Bill the salaries of Ministers, and so on?
    Mr. Bracken: I did not mention Ministers.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman knows that he is keeping very near the border line. Sometimes he gets over it, and on those occasions he is in conflict with the Chair.
    Mr. Bracken: If I may say so respectfully, Mr. Beaumont, I think your definition of what I am saying is right. These interruptions drag one near to the border line, but I will not be tempted to go over it. I want to finish by referring to the Financial Secretary's speech. In my judgment, a more inadequate performance was never given by a Minister. The Financial Secretary's performance tonight was squalid, shameful and shabby, but it does teach us a lesson as to what we shall have to do in years to come.
    Mr. Benson: I should have a great deal more sympathy for hon. Gentlemen opposite if I felt that they were really and seriously concerned with the memory of Lord Nelson. I feel that they are much more concerned about something which they regard as far more sacred—that is private property.
    Mr. Bracken: The hon. Member is wrong.
    Mr. Benson: Had they consulted the dignity and the name of Lord Nelson, perhaps they might have learned something from the conduct of the present Lord Nelson and his heir. When this Bill passed its Second Reading, it was sent to a Select Committee at which any interested person could petition against it. The present Lord Nelson did not petition; his brother did not petition; and the third generation did not petition. There was no petition at all by any member of the Nelson family.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: May I say in fairness to the family of Lord Nelson and also as a Member of the Committee, of which the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) was the distinguished and impartial chairman, that there are considerable costs associated with petitions. The intentions of the Government in the matter had already been made known on
    1982
    Second Reading. The Nelson family were about to lose a substantial income. Was it fair to expect them also to incur possibly heavy legal costs in petitioning against the Bill when they already knew what the Government's intentions were?
    Mr. Benson: What was in the minds of the Nelson family I do not know. All I know is that their conduct was far more dignified than the conduct of the Opposition.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: That is not fair on the part of the hon. Member who was chairman—
    Mr. Benson: I am only speaking here—
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It is unworthy of the hon. Member.
    Mr. Benson: I am only speaking of the facts as I know them. Every Member of the Select Committee is entitled to speak in this Committee, and two of them have already spoken. Surely then the Chairman of the Select Committee is entitled to speak. If the Chairman of the Select Committee is not entitled to speak here why were there cries for him when the Cable and Wireless Bill was being considered? Really, hon. Members cannot have it both ways. For the hon. Member for Mid Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) to say that the Chairman of the Select Committee is not entitled to speak on this matter is to say something which is entirely contrary to custom.
    Mr. Percy Wells: An old Spanish custom.
    Mr. Benson: I find it very astonishing that when I get up primarily for the purpose of pointing out the dignity with which the present Lord Nelson and his heirs have acted in this matter, I should be greeted with protests from hon. Members opposite. I ask them to exercise the same dignity as Lord Nelson. The hon. Member for Mid-Bedford and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) have referred to our breaking a solemn contract. The suggestion is that what was done in 1806 is sacrosanct for all time. What was the House in 1806?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: A victorious House and an honourable House.
    Mr. Benson: It was 26 years before the first Reform Bill; it was a House that was representative of the rotten boroughs and was elected through corruption.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I think the hon. Member had better leave that subject altogether.
    Mr. Benson: I will not labour that point. All I will say is that what I know of the House of Commons of 1806 leads me to the conviction that we in this year 1947 should not be bound by a body such as it was.
    Mr. Bracken: Before the hon. Member leaves the House of Commons of 1806, perhaps he will remember first, that its Members were not paid £1,000 a year, and, secondly, they had no political fund.
    Mr. Benson: The Members may not have been paid £1,000 a year but they made their money other ways.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I think perhaps hon. Members have had a pretty wide field in this Debate so far, and I will draw the reins tighter from this time onwards.
    Mr. Wilson Harris: I do not desire to add to what I said on the Second Reading of the Bill—and if I may say so, this Debate seems to be developing into a Second Reading Debate. I find myself, however, differing from both the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) and the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) as to the Parliament of 1806. After all, there is continuity in this House, whatever Reform Bills have been passed at various intervals. When the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford enunciated the doctrine that it is hardly within the competence of this Chamber or any successors of this Chamber to repeal any Measure passed in 1806, I can only say that if we kept hanging round our necks all the legislation passed from 1806 onwards, we should find ourselves in a peculiar position. It is surely open to this House in 1947 to pass judgment on something that took place in 1806. That Parliament in its wisdom or its unwisdom passed this Measure making provision for the heirs of Lord Nelson in a way that was contrary to the wishes of Lord Nelson, and refrained and perhaps rightly refrained from carrying out his known wishes.
    1984
    It would be a profound mistake to think that the memory of Lord Nelson is in any way bound up with this Nelson pension. Not one man in 500,000 in this country, before this Bill was introduced, knew that such a pension existed, or even that an Earl Nelson still lived. The real memory of Lord Nelson is in his own achievements, his tomb in St. Paul's, the square built in his memory and the monument erected in the middle of that square. That is a sufficient tribute to Lord Nelson without the necessity to maintain this pension. As for the manner of bringing it to an end, it would have been harsh and arbitrary to have deprived the present holder of this income; it would perhaps have been harsh and arbitrary to have deprived his brother and heir, of it. But to say that unborn Nelsons should continue for all time, to enjoy this pension is neither logical, nor fair to the taxpayers of this country. I think, therefore, that the Committee would be well advised to bring this discussion to an end at this stage.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: We all know that the hon. Member the junior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson Harris) has been perfectly consistent throughout this Bill, but I am still in considerable difficulties as to where the Government in general and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in particular stand in this matter. The right hon. Gentleman doubtless has been so preoccupied with Budget considerations that he has hardly had time to give serious thought to this matter. He has taken some time to expound to us, as have some other hon. Members, that it was not the intention of Lord Nelson himself that the pension should descend in the way it has, through his collateral descendants and that, therefore, it was a fit and proper thing for Parliament now to terminate this arrangement. Having said that, the right hon. Gentleman went on to tell the Committee in one sentence of his speech that under one Clause the Nelson family were going to be better off than they are today.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall indicated dissent.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: That is what the right hon. Gentleman said on Clause 2—that it would be found that the Nelson family were going to be better

    1985
    off under this arrangement. If I am wrong the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow will reveal it.
    11.15 p.m.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not want to prolong this discussion, but if the hon. and gallant Gentleman wants me to clear up the point, I can do so in this way. I was trying to show that there was a difference between the perpetual pension, with which this Clause deals, and the estate, for which another £100,000 was voted. It is the estate for which the trustees were appointed, and the descendants will be better off because the estate will be freed, and they will be able to sell it.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: The right hon. Gentleman underlines and emphasises the point I was trying to make. The estate was never left to Lady Hamilton, or to her daughter Horatia, who, by the way, did have issue of some six children by a clerk in holy orders. This estate did not go to that family, but to the brother—
    The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is now expressing views on Clause 2, and not on Clause 1.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Am I not in Order in referring to something which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned?
    The Deputy-Chairman: I allowed it only by way of illustration.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I will pass immediately to the next misstatement of the right hon. Gentleman. His argument will hardly stand examination. I was a little disquieted to find that the Financial Secretary, of all people, does not know the difference between gross and net income. He went on to explain the large sums of money the family have drawn since commutation. It was only the other day that a certain right hon. Gentleman was given £116,000 a year in order to provide him an income of £4,000. If that goes on for 10 years, the right hon. Gentleman who draws this income will have taken £1,116,000 for services to the community, which some regard as less distinguished than Lord Nelson's. Let us, therefore, have no more references to the large sums drawn in net and gross incomes. I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Devon-
    1986
    port (Mr. Foot), because he wrote some very wounding literature about the last Parliament. I did not realise that he was about to engage upon another edition of "Your M.P." for the Parliament of 1806—
    Mr. Foot: That was a comparatively innocent Parliament compared with the last Parliament.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I do not see that the hon. Member and myself are in any position to judge, as neither of us had the pleasure of sitting in that House of Commons. He told us—I do not know on what evidence—that the Parliament of 1806 were in no position to make a decision in this matter, that they were not seized of the facts, and were not aware of Lord Nelson's wishes. The great Lord Nelson, who has now been dead for a number of years, has a number of gentlemen interpreting his mind for him. If it is not the hon. Member for Devonport, it is Mr. Hannen Swaffer, describing what Nelson would have done in the Navy today. One of the things I am looking forward to in the next world is to hear Lord Nelson's opinion of Mr. Hannen Swaffer and the hon. Member for Devonport.
    All these arguments seek to escape the real issue. The hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) descended a little from his role of financial expert to that of a psychologist. He claimed to know what was in the minds of my hon. Friends and myself. He said we were not moved so much by respect for the memory of Lord Nelson as by the defence of private property. Surely there is a much higher issue in this matter than that. It is not a question of what appears in the "Observer" newspaper about what letters are going to be on sale at Sotheby's, or wherever it is. The Financial Secretary did not tell us by whom the letters were written, or to whom. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is in possession of the letters, or whether we may know what the passages were.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Tomorrow.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: We will wait in patience, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will arrive with a better brief than he did today. The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson Harris) said that this Parliament is in no sense bound by a decision of

    1987
    our predecessors in 1806 any more than the next Parliament will be bound by the decisions of this Parliament. Repeal is contagious disease once it has been encouraged. What we are concerned with on these Benches—
    Mr. Stokes: What about the Land Values Bill?
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I think I might possibly be ruled out of Order if I discussed land values on this occasion. What we see here is the clear intention of our predecessors being very lightly swept away. It is only a few minutes since we were listening to the Minister of Defence telling us about the perilous past and the thanks we ought to give for our victory. Lord Nelson, by his great victory, gave peace to Europe for 99 years, and how pleased we should be if we thought that the acts of the present Government would give us peace for 99 years. That was the atmosphere in which this grant was made.
    Mr. William Wells: May I interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman? Could he please remind the Committee whether the battle of Waterloo was before or after the battle of Trafalgar?
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: The battle of Waterloo was in the year 1815, and if the hon. Gentleman has studied the history of the Napoleonic Wars—
    Mr. Wells: I have not.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite:I thought not by the intervention he made. Had he done so, he would have known that the turning-point in the long struggle which made Waterloo and the defeat of Napoleon possible, was the battle of Trafalgar.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I cannot allow these historic digressions.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I certainly cannot set up as an instructor in history to hon. Members opposite, who found such difficulty in recollecting the history of their own party only this afternoon. The point I was trying to make to the Committee was this. The mood of the House of Commons when it made this grant, was a mood of thankfulness for a great victory. They believed, and I am bound to say I have always thought
    1988
    they were right, that the victory of Nelson at Trafalgar was the decisive factor in the Napoleonic Wars. It is quite true that Waterloo followed—
    Mr. Wells: So did Austerlitz.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Really, Mr. Beaumont, hon. Members must not make these rather childish remarks. I realise that they think that their time in the House is short, and they will soon be leaving us for good—
    The Deputy-Chairman: I must ask the hon. and gallant Member to confine his remarks to the first Clause of the Bill.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: These interruptions have made my remarks rather longer than I had intended. I was saying that Parliament in that day did think that this was a fitting manner in which to reward the great service of the great Admiral. They made that decision rightly or wrongly—hon. Members opposite think wrongly. But if that decision is not to be respected, then I say it is a flagrant breach of faith.
    Mr. Beverley Baxter: The whole tendency of our public life today, dominated as it is by the Socialist Government, is to destroy—
    Hon. Members: Order.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member is out of Order in his first sentence.
    Mr. Baxter: With great respect, Mr. Beaumont, this breaking with a trust of the past is a manifestation of a psychological tendency, under which this country is moving in this present time—
    The Deputy-Chairman: We are not discussing that. We are discussing the first Clause of this Bill.
    Mr. Baxter: With great respect, this Bill is being brought forward by the Government who ask for the approval of the Committee. Surely it is in Order to examine the intellectual and spiritual motives behind it?
    The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member might have made that speech on the Second Reading but it is not in Order at this stage.
    Dr. Morgan: Since the hon. Member has been called to Order three times is he entitled to continue—
    Hon. Members: Order.
    Mr. Baxter: The matter on which we are engaged—
    Dr. Morgan: May I have an answer to my question?
    The Deputy-Chairman: The rule is this: if I wish to ask a Member to resume his seat I will do so.
    Dr. Morgan: Is there not a rule that if a Member is called to Order three times by the Chair he should not continue his speech?
    The Deputy-Chairman: The whole matter is in the discretion of the Chair.
    Mr. Baxter: This Clause which we are debating tonight, and against which I hope we on this side will divide, deals with the determination of a contract, promise or pledge, whatever the Committee likes to call it. This Committee is to decide tonight whether it will break trust with the former Parliament of 1806, which it has a right to do, if it thinks it is justified. But I feel that Members of the House of Commons of 1806, who have been so
    maligned by hon. Members opposite, had generosity in their hearts and dignity in their minds. I do not propose to laugh at the Parliament which kept England supreme against Napoleon. I said that our predecessors of this had in their minds that they would raise a sum, or pay a sum annually, so that whoever carried the title of Lord Nelson, should be able to live in the community as a figure of dignity, not having to go into the market place for his livelihood—no doubt, doing useful national work, and always as I say a figure of dignity. We are doing a shabby and undignified thing in breaking with that decision and adding to the general decline in the country in these matters.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Whiteley)rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 218; Noes, 67.

    Division No. 118.]

    AYES.

    [11.31 p.m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Hughes, H. D (W'lverh'pton, W.)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    do Freitas, Geoffrey

    Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

    Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Irving, W. J.

    Attewell, H. C.

    Diamond, J.

    Janner, B.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Dobbie, W.

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

    Barton, C.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Bechervaise, A. E.

    Dye, S.

    Keenan, W.

    Benson, G.

    Ede, Rt. Han. J. C.

    Kenyon, C.

    Beswick, F.

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Kinley, J.

    Binns, J.

    Ewart, R.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Blackburn, A. R.

    Farthing, W. J.

    Lang, G

    Blyton, W. R.

    Fletcher, E. G. M (Islington, E.)

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Boardman, H.

    Foot, M. M.

    Leonard, W.

    Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

    Forman, J. C.

    Lever, N. H.

    Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

    Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

    Lewis, T (Southampton)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

    Gibbins, J.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Logan, D G.

    Bramall, Major E. A.

    Gilzean, A.

    Longden, F.

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Lyne, A. W.

    Brown, T. J. (Ince)

    Gordon-Walker, P. C.

    McKay, J. (Wallsend)

    Burden, T. W.

    Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

    McLeavy, F.

    Burke, W. A.

    Grey, C. F.

    McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

    Butler, H W. (Hackney, S.)

    Grierson, E.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.

    Byers, Frank

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Callaghan, James

    Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Carmichael, James

    Gunter, R. J.

    Mathers, G.

    Champion, A. J.

    Guy, W. H.

    Medland, H. M.

    Cooks, F. S.

    Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Coldrick, W.

    Hale, Leslie

    Middleton, Mrs L

    Collindridge, F.

    Hall, W. G.

    Mikardo, Ian.

    Collins, V. J.

    Hardman, D. R.

    Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Hardy, E. A.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Cook, T. F.

    Haworth, J.

    Monslow, W.

    Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W)

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Moody, A. S.

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Hobson, C R.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B

    Daggar, G.

    Holman, P

    Morley R.

    Daines, P.

    Holmes, H E. (Hemsworth)

    Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    House, C.

    Moyle, A.

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Hoy, J.

    Nally, W

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Royle, C.

    Usborne, Henry

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Sargood, R.

    Vernon, Maj. W. F.

    Nicholls, H. R (Stratford)

    Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Sharp, Granville

    Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

    O'Brien, T.

    Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

    Warbey, W. N.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Watkins, T. E.

    Paget, R. T.

    Shurmer, P.

    Watson, W. M.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Weitzman, D.

    Palmer, A. M F.

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

    Pargiler, G. A.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Parker, J.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    West, D. G.

    Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Snow, Capt. J. W.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Pearson, A.

    Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Peart, Capt. T. F.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

    Piratin, P.

    Stamford, W.

    Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

    Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

    Stewart, Michael (Fullham, E.)

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

    Stokes, R. R.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    Randall, H. E.

    Swingler, S.

    Willis, E.

    Ranger, J.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Wills, Mrs. E. A.

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Wilson, J. H.

    Rhodes, H.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Wise, Major F. J

    Richards, R.

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Woodburn, A.

    Robens, A

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Wyatt, W.

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Yates, V. F.

    Roberts, Geronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Zilliacus, K.

    Rogers, G. H. R.

    Titterington, M. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Mr. Hannan and Mr. Popplewell.

    NOES.

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

    Rayner, Brig. R

    Baxter, A. B.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Bayd-Carpenter, J A.

    Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H

    Scott, Lord W.

    Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklew)

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr J. G.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

    Challen, C.

    Linstead, H. N.

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Channon, H.

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Spence, H. R.

    Clarke, Col. R. S.

    Lucas, Major Sir J.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Strauss, H G. (English Universities)

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Studholme, H. G.

    Crowder, Capt. John E.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Cuthbert, W. N.

    Manningham-Buller, R. E

    Thorp, Lt.-Col. R A. F

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Wadsworth, G.

    Digby, S. W.

    Marsden, Capt. A.

    Ward, Hon. G. R.

    Drewe, C.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Maude, J. C.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Fox, Sir G

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Young, Sir A. S. L. (Patrick)

    Gage, C

    Neven-Spence, Sir B.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.

    Nicholson, G.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Grimston, R. V.

    Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

    Commander Agnew and

    Hope, Lord J.

    Raikes, H. V.

    Major Conant.

    Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J

    Ramsay, Maj. S

    Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 216; Noes, 66.

    Division No. 119.]

    AYES

    [11.40 p.m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Bramall, Major E. A.

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    Adams, W. T (Hammersmith, South)

    Brook, D. (Halifax)

    Davies, Edward (Burslem)

    Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

    Brown, T. J. (Ince)

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Burden, T W

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Attewell, H. C.

    Burke, W. A.

    Davies, S. O. (Marthyr)

    Awbery, S. S.

    Butler, H W. (Hackney, S.)

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B

    Byers, Frank

    Delargy, H. J.

    Bacon, Miss A.

    Callaghan, James

    Diamond, J.

    Barton, C.

    Carmichael, James

    Dobbie, W.

    Bechervaise, A. E

    Champion, A. J.

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    Benson, G.

    Cooks, F. S.

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Beswick, F.

    Coldrick, W.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Bing, G. H. C

    Collindridge, F.

    Dye, S.

    Binns, J.

    Collins, V. J.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Blackburn, A. R

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Cook, T. F.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Boardman, H.

    Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

    Ewart, R.

    Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Farthing, W. J.

    Bowles, F G. (Nuneaton)

    Daggar, G.

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

    Daines, P.

    Foot, M. M.

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    Forman, J. C.

    Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

    Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Gibbins, J.

    Mathers, G.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Madland, H. M.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Gilzean, A.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Middleton, Mrs. L.

    Snow, Capt. J. W.

    Gordon-Walker, P. C.

    Mikardo, Ian.

    Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

    Greenwood, A. W J. (Heywood)

    Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Grey, C. F.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Stamford, W.

    Grierson, E.

    Monslow, W.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Moody, A. S.

    Stokes, R. R.

    Gunter, R. J.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Guy, W. H.

    Morley, R.

    Swingler, S.

    Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

    Morris, P (Swansea, W.)

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Hale, Leslie

    Moyle, A.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Hall, W. G.

    Nally, W.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Hardman, D. R.

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

    Hardy, E. A.

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Haworth, J.

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Hobson, C. R

    O'Brien, T.

    Titterington, M. F.

    Holman, P

    Oliver, G. H.

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Holmes, H E. (Hemsworth)

    Paget, R T.

    Usborne, Henry

    House, G.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Vernon, Maj. W. F.

    Hoy, J.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Wadsworth, G.

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Parker, J.

    Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

    Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

    Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

    Warbey, W. N.

    Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Watkins, T. E.

    Irving, W. J

    Pearson, A.

    Watson, W. M.

    Janner, B.

    Peart, Capt. T. F.

    Weitzman, D.

    Jeger, G, (Winchester)

    Piratin, P.

    Welis, P. L. (Faversham)

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

    Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

    Pools, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

    West, D. G.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Keenan, W.

    Randall, H. E.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Kenyon, C.

    Ranger, J.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

    Kinley, J.

    Rhodes, H.

    Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

    Kirby, B. V.

    Richards, R.

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Lang, G.

    Robens, A.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    Leonard, W.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Willis, E.

    Lever, N. H.

    Rogers, G. H. R.

    Wills, Mrs. E. A.

    Lewis, T. (Southampton)

    Rose, William (Kilmarnock)

    Wilson, J. H.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Royle, C.

    Wise, Major F. J

    Longden, F

    Sargood, R.

    Woodburn, A.

    Lyne, A. W.

    Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.

    Wyatt, W.

    McKay, J. (Wallsend)

    Sharp, Granville

    Yates, V. F.

    McLeavy, F.

    Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

    Zilliacus, K.

    McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

    Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.

    Shurmer, P.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES

    Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Mr. Raman and Mr. Popplewell

    NOES.

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

    Hope, Lord J.

    Noble, Comdr. A. H. P

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

    Raikes, H. V.

    Baxter, A. B.

    Hutchison, Lt -Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

    Ramsay, Maj. S.

    Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

    Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Scott, Lord W.

    Challen, C.

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklew)

    Channon, H.

    Linstead, H N.

    Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

    Clarke, Col. R. S.

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

    Lucas, Major Sir J.

    Spence, H. R.

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Stoddart-Soott, Col. M.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Crowder, Capt. John E

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

    Cuthbert, W. N.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

    Thomas, J. P L. (Hereford)

    Digby, S. W.

    Manningham-Buller, R. E.

    Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F

    Eccles, D. M.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Ward, Hon. G. R.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Marsden, Capt. A.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Fox, Sir G.

    Maude, J. C.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Gage, C.

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Young, Sir A. S. L. (Patrick)

    Gomme-Duncan, Col A. G.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Neven-Spence, Sir B

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Nicholson, G.

    Mr. Drewe and Mr. Studholme

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 2—(Provisions as to Trafalgar Estates.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill,"
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It may be difficult to convince Members opposite that some of us attach enormous importance to this Bill, but as we listen patiently to many things that move them deeply so I think we might have some consideration in return. I do not propose, after the lengthy protest that we made about what we regard as a bad Measure, to detain the Committee very long on this Clause, which deals with the Trafalgar Estates. The Financial Secretary said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the First Lord of the Admiralty, and the Treasurer of the Navy—an office now merged in the Paymaster-Generalship—are trustees, not of the annuity, but of the estate. That is true, but many of us feel that the two trusts are deeply intertwined, and that is why I made reference then to them on Clause 1. With regard to the estate, the right hon. Gentleman said that the holders of the title of Lord Nelson will be advantaged by this Clause, because they are now free from any ban on selling or developing the estate. We are not here making our protest out of any particular consideration for whoever may be the Lord Nelson of the day, although he is as much entitled to personal protection as any other citizen of this country. What we are concerned about is the question of principle—and on that we have made our protest on Clause 1—and also the fate of a fine and historic estate, with a magnificent house, and that arises now on Clause 2. It may be true that the owner of the estate at the moment may now be free to develop the estate and turn it into anything he likes; he may be free to sell it brick by brick to the United States to buy those thing that the Government in their wisdom think should have the highest priority; but this would not be, to us, a worthy national purpose. Therefore, I have risen to ask the right hon. Gentleman what it is proposed to do with the Trafalgar Estate, and what has happened to the negotiations that we understand have been taking place between Lord Nelson and His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: As I indicated when we were dealing with an earlier Clause,
    1996
    Clause 2 deals with the Trafalgar Estates, which were bought, as I have already indicated, with £99,000 which was granted by the House for the purchase of a mansion house and lands going with it, in which it was hoped the successive Lord Nelsons would live. That is an entirely different thing from the proposed pension with which we have just been dealing. Under an Act which was passed in 1813, it was definitely laid down that no holder of the title could bar the entail, and therefore, the estates have been entailed to successive holders of the title from that time until now. It was felt, when this Bill was being discussed before its introduction, that it would be unfair to the Nelson family to take away the pensions and not give the holder of the title some easement so far as the sale of the estate was concerned, and, therefore, Clause 2 was put into the Bill. It is, as I have already said, beneficial to the Nelson family in that the holder of the title can now, if he is so minded, sell the estates, although the funds which will accrue from any sale which may take place will have to be held under the Settled Lands Act, 1925, in trust, but the trustees can be of the Nelson family's own choosing. It will not be, in the sense that it is now, a public trust. It will be a private family trust, and in that sense they will be able to deal with it as they will.
    The hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) asked me whether the suggestion that this mansion house should be put to some use by the nation had come to any conclusion. The position is that negotiations have been going on, but that, unfortunately, no conclusions have yet been reached. The Committee already knows there was a suggestion that this mansion might be used for the Admiralty as a centre for training young sailors, or for some other purpose connected with the Royal Navy, or with the dependants of men who have served in the Royal Navy, but these suggestions, and others of their kind, have not come to anything so far.
    Mr. Bracken: Sir Ben Smith is not going to buy it, is he? The right hon. Gentleman need not look so worried
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I was not worrying at all, but I was thinking if the "Financial

    1997
    Times" wanted to make a generous gesture through its chief proprietor, I am sure the Nelson family would only be too delighted, supposing the price were good enough, to come to terms with the right hon. Gentleman. I can only say that we still think it may be possible to arrange for the house to be used for one of the purposes suggested during the Debate on the Second Reading, but that I can make no very hopeful report at present.
    The Chairman: The hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) asked a question and I permitted the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to reply to that question. However, on consideration, I do not think that the future of the estate comes within the purview of this Clause, which really deals with legal aspects.
    Mr. C. Williams: I will endeavour, of course, to keep as closely as possible to the legal aspect of the Clause and I should like to ask a question or two on it. The right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury explained—and I think that this is a legal as well as a technical matter—that the estate is now no longer one which is a national trust, but one which comes into the hands of the private trustees. May I ask, if that is so, at this moment before the Bill passes, is this estate subject to Death Duties; and when it becomes a private trust will it be subject to Death Duties? It is going to make a tremendous difference if by the passing of this Clause the estate is made subject to Death Duties. I think that point is worthy of consideration, because if it is subject to Death Duties the generosity about which we have heard so much just now is not anything like as big as it might have been.
    The next point with which I should like to deal is in regard to the trustees. I think we are all clear that there are official trustees at the present time. I should like to ask whether any wish has been expressed that we should no longer have any connection between the historic estate and the estate administered by these new trustees, when the official trustees are abolished by this Clause. There are certain other things in this Clause about which I am not clear. I should like to ask what is meant by this phrase in Clause 2 (1):
    1998
    "Provided that nothing in this subsection shall affect the limit imposed by law on the number of trustees for the purposes of the Settled Land Act, 1925."
    So far as I can see, under this Clause we are dealing only with limited trustees. Is there any reason to put this in the Bill at all? I think that the Bill is strong without it, though I am not a law adviser of the Government. I would like some information on the point from one of the Law Officers. I see that the principal Law Officer is present and the second Law Officer is here, too, but I do not see the unofficial law officer in the Committee tonight. Surely from the principal Law Officer or his deputy I can have an explanation of this matter. I think it might be helpful and that a good number of other Members might like to know something about it. It seems to me to be a point of substance, and for that reason I must press for some explanation.
    12 m.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Briefly the answer to the hon. Gentleman is that under Section 5 (5) of the Finance Act, 1894, these estates were not subject so far as the principal was concerned, to Death Duties. The Death Duties payable were only payable in so far as the life interest of the tenant for the time being was concerned. The question asked was whether the provisions of Section 5 of the Act of 1894 will continue to apply to the estates now that this change has taken place. I am advised that it will—that the tenant in possession will continue, under the trust which will be set up, to enjoy the provisions of Section 5 of the Finance Act, 1894. As far as Clause 2 (3) is concerned, I hope I shall not be asked to delete that because there is a good deal of meat in it. It is under that Clause that the Nelson family are going to enjoy the new benefits of freedom to sell the estates if they so desire.
    Mr. Williams: I always try to be courteous, and I am sure the Committee would wish me on this occasion to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary for the way he has answered this question. I want to go further than that on this occasion and say that the right hon. Gentleman has treated this matter in a kindly way.
    Captain Marsden: I think we ought to hear a little more about Clause 2. It seems to have been gone through very rapidly. I understand that

    1999
    the Clause did away with the official trustees, so that Lord Nelson and his brother could appoint their own trustees, and under those new conditions they will be allowed to sell this property. The Financial Secretary has half handed it over already, or at least he thinks he has. He has told us about using the House for Admiralty purposes or for sailors. Has he any authority for saying such things? I think they are most improper. I suggest that the Government should do this thing differently. If they are going to take away Lord Nelson's gratuity, why not give him a job with the Coal Board? The remuneration he would receive would enable him to maintain his position with the dignity which our predecessors expected him to have.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported, without Amendment.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    12.5 a.m.
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: I have not spoken on this Measure, and the House need not be afraid that I shall detain them long on this occasion. It is right, however, that I should state my opinion about it. This is a squalid little Bill, characteristic of the squalid little minds who devised it. I cannot attach quite so much importance to it as some of my hon. Friends do. I do not see why Parliament should not, in its wisdom or unwisdom, alter or terminate arrangements made some 150 years ago. What I cannot understand is why it cannot do so decently generously. I cannot understand why it is not considered honourable in this House to pay proper compensation for what is being done. I would point out that the actual cost to the Treasury would be negligible owing to the incidence of Death Duties and Surtax. I imagine that the net gain to the Nelson family would be extremely small indeed. I am driven to the conclusion that this Bill is characteristic of much of the policy we are asked to approve at the present time. It is introduced, not for its own merits, but simply for the purpose of wasting Parliamentary time.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I do not think that question arises on the Third Reading, which, as the hon. Member knows, is confined to what is in the Bill.
    Mr. Hogg: I was trying to confine myself to what is in the Bill. We have been gagged and guillotined on every kind of Measure, but not on this. We have been guillotined on the Transport Bill and the Town and Country Planning Bill but not on this.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member must keep to the subject-matter of the Bill, otherwise I must ask him to resume his seat.
    Mr. Hogg: The provisions of this Bill are not designed to expedite Parliamentary business. I say no more than that the Bill has been introduced for the purpose of wasting Parliamentary time.
    12.9 a.m.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: I should like to ask whether, in. passing this Bill, we are not forgetting the fundamental fact that we are breaking a solemn promise made by Parliament some 150 years ago. I may be old-fashioned, but I think a promise is a promise. There is no doubt that 150 years ago Parliament wished this pension to be in perpetuity, and it is therefore, highly undesirable that this Parliament should say that that is not to be the case. A promise is a promise, and I feel that that is the only thing that matters in this Bill.
    Major Cecil Poole: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman allow me?
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: No, I am sorry. There can be no argument about this. [Interruption.] I wish to repeat that—I feel it absolutely essential that when a solemn promise has been given we should support that promise, even 150 years later.
    12.12 a.m.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: I rise simply because of the indecent sneers which we have heard from the other side of the House. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken was sincerely voicing his opinion when he said that this Bill represented the breaking of a solemn promise. That is a view that may or may not commend itself to hon. Members of this House. But it is, clearly,

    2001
    held with great sincerity, and I think it is a poor day for this House and a poor day for this country when expressions of opinion of this nature are greeted with sneers and jeers from the little minds opposite.
    Major Poole: The hon. and gallant Gentleman who was greeted with sneers and so on by the rest of the House, did not give way to allow me to ask him a perfectly simple question.
    Hon. Members: Why should he?
    Major Poole: Because it is common courtesy in this House to give way.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: May I say I did not give way to the hon. and gallant Member because I wanted to say what I was going to say very shortly. If I appeared discourteous I am very sorry.
    Major Poole: I entirely accept that. All I wanted to do was to ask the hon. and gallant Member a perfectly simple question. Would he, on the basis of his argument, give us a categorical assurance that in no circumstances would any Conservative Government—if ever there should be a Conservative Government—repeal or alter any of the legislation passed by this Government?
    Hon. Members: Do not worry.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: I cannot say whether there will be a Conservative Government or not—I have my own views on that subject—but I still think that a promise is a promise, whether it is made by a Conservative, Socialist, or a Liberal Government. That is all there is to it.
    Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    The House divided: Ayes, 173; Noes, 58.

    Division No. 120.]

    AYES.

    [12.15 a.m.

    Adams, Richard (Balham)

    Gilzean, A.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

    Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

    Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Gordon-Walker, P. C.

    Moyle, A.

    Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

    Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

    Nally, W.

    Attewell, H. C.

    Grierson, E.

    Neal, H. (Claycross)

    Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.

    Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

    Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

    Barton, C.

    Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)

    Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

    Bechervaise, A. E.

    Gunter, R. J.

    Noel-Buxton, Lady

    Beswick, F.

    Guy, W. H.

    O'Brien, T.

    Bing, G. H. C

    Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Binns, J.

    Hale, Leslie

    Paget, R. T.

    Blackburn, A. R

    Hall, W. G.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Hannan, W (Maryhill)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Boardman, H.

    Hardy, E. A.

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Parker, J.

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

    Hobson, C. R.

    Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

    Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

    Holman, P.

    Paton, J. (Norwich)

    Bramall, Major E. A.

    House, G.

    Pearson, A.

    Brown, T. J (Ince)

    Hoy, J.

    Piratin, P.

    Burden, T W.

    Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

    Plaits-Mills, J. F. F.

    Burke, W. A.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

    Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

    Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

    Popplewell, E.

    Byers, Frank

    Irving, W. J.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Callaghan, James

    Janner, B.

    Randall, H. E.

    Carmichael, James

    Jeger, G. (Winchester)

    Ranger, J.

    Champion, A. J.

    Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

    Reid, T. (Swindon)

    Cooks, F. S.

    Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

    Rhodes, H.

    Collins, V. J.

    Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

    Robens, A.

    Comyns, Dr. L.

    Keenan, W.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

    Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

    Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

    Rogers, G. H. R.

    Corlett, Dr. J.

    Kinley, J.

    Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

    Daggar, G.

    Kirby, B. V.

    Royle, C.

    Daines, P.

    Lang, G.

    Sargood, R.

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    Lee, F. (Hulme)

    Sharp, Granville

    Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

    Leonard, W.

    Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Lever, N. H.

    Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Lewis, J. (Bolton)

    Shurmer, P.

    Diamond, J.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Silverman, J. (Erdington)

    Dobbie, W.

    Longden, F.

    Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

    Driberg, T. E. N.

    McLeavy, F.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Dumpleton, C. W.

    Mathers, G.

    Smith, C. (Colchester)

    Dye, S.

    Medland, H. M.

    Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

    Middleton, Mrs. L.

    Stubbs, A. E.

    Evans, John (Ogmore)

    Mikardo, Ian.

    Swingler, S.

    Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

    Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Foot, M. M.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Monslow, W.

    Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Weitzman, D.

    Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

    Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

    Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

    Williams, W. R. (Heston)

    Ungoed-Thomas, L.

    Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

    Willis, E.

    Usborne, Henry

    West, D. G.

    Wills, Mrs. E. A

    Vernon, Maj. W. F

    White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Yates, V. F.

    Wadsworth, G.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Zilliacus, K.

    Wallace, G. D. (Chistehurst)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

    Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

    Mr. Collindridge and

    Warbey, W. N.

    Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

    Captain Snow.

    Watkins, T. E.

    Williams, D J. (Neath)

    NOES.

    Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

    Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W)

    Rayner, Brig. R

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Baxter, A. B.

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Scott, Lord W.

    Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

    Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

    Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

    Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J G

    Linstead, H. N.

    Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

    Challen, C.

    Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

    Smithers, Sir W

    Channon, H.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

    Spence, H. R.

    Clarke, Col. R. S.

    McKie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

    Crowder, Capt. John E.

    Manningham-Buller, R. E.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

    Cuthbert, W. N.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Drewe, C.

    Marsden, Capt. A.

    Thorp, Ll.-Col. R A. F

    Eccles, D. M.

    Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

    Ward, Hon. G. R.

    Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

    Maude, J. C.

    Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Mellor, Sir J.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Gage, C.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.

    Neven-Spence, Sir B.

    Young, Sir A. S. L. (Patrick)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Nicholson, G.

    Hogg, Hon. Q.

    Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hope, Lord J.

    Ramsay, Maj. S.

    Mr. Studholme and Major Conant.

    Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

    Question put, and agreed to

    Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

  DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF
  Resolved:
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Australia) Order be made in the form of the Draft laid before this House on 12th November."—[Mr. Glenvil Hall.]
  To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of His Majesty's Household.

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the County Borough of Barnsley, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th March, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Northwich, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th March, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Ware, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th March, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Whitby, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th March, be approved."—[Mr. Oliver.]

  CHURCH COMMISSIONERS MEASURE
  12.24 a.m.
  Mr. Burden: I beg to move,
  "That the Church Commissioners Measure, passed by the National Assembly of the Church of England, be presented to His Majesty for His Royal Assent in the form in which the said Measure was laid before Parliament."
  This Measure provides for the amalgamation and reconstitution of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of England, established by Act of Parliament in 1836, and Queen Anne's Bounty, established by Royal Charter in 1704. It will be seen from the report made by the Ecclesiastical Committee on the Measure that it was approved by the Church Assembly without a dissentient vote. Perhaps the House will allow me to quote further from the report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. This report says:
  "This amalgamation was recommended in 1901 by a Select Committee of both Houses of Parliament; in 1924 by a Commission appointed by the Archbishops, and again in 1933 by another Commission under the chairmanship of the late Earl of Selborne. The

  2005
  present Measure prepared by a Joint Committee, set up by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty in 1943, carries out, with little alteration a scheme of amalgamation approved by the Church Assembly."
  The Report goes on to say:
  "The Ecclesiastical Committee agreed that the amalgamation of these two authorities is desirable. Their main duty, namely, the augmentation of the incomes of the poorer clergy, is the same, and in other respects their functions overlap. The Committee, therefore, have little doubt that the proposed amalgamation will tend to promote the more efficient and economical administration of the resources of the Church of England as stated in the Preamble of the Measure."
  The Measure does not appear to be controversial, nor to affect prejudicially the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects. The Ecclesiastical Committee are of the opinion that it is expedient it should proceed. I suggest to the House that the amalgamation will enable the work at present done by the two separately to be
  2006
  carried out more economically and perhaps even more efficiently. At every stage of the proceedings in connection with this Measure there has been unanimity; and I sincerely hope that the House will agree with the Ecclesiastical Committee and approve of the Measure.
  Commander Agnew: I beg to second the Motion.
  Resolved:
  "That the Church Commissioners Measure, passed by the National Assembly of the Church of England, be presented to His Majesty for His Royal Assent in the form in which the said Measure was laid before Parliament."

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved: "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Michael Stewart.]
  Adjourned at Twenty-Seven Minutes past Twelve o'Clock.

  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (PERSONAL CASE)
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (PERSONAL CASE)
BRITISH ARMY
  Overseas Personnel (Speculation)
  Overseas Personnel (Speculation)
  East Africa Command (Group Releases)
  East Africa Command (Group Releases)
  Training Area, Penmaenmawr (Release)
  Training Area, Penmaenmawr (Release)
  Detentions, Tahag
  Detentions, Tahag
  Supply of Goods (Colchester)
  Supply of Goods (Colchester)
  Venereal Disease
  Venereal Disease
  Compassionate Leave
  Compassionate Leave
  Germany (N.A.A.F.I. Supplies)
  Germany (N.A.A.F.I. Supplies)
  Soap Issue (Italy)
  Soap Issue (Italy)
  Prestonfields Camp, Edinburgh
  Prestonfields Camp, Edinburgh
PRISONERS OF WAR
  Camp, Abergavenny
  Camp, Abergavenny
  Transit Camps (Amenities)
  Transit Camps (Amenities)
NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Scheme of National Assistance
  Scheme of National Assistance
  Local Offices
  Local Offices
  Family Allowances
  Family Allowances
  Insured Persons, Cumberland
  Insured Persons, Cumberland
  Extended Unemployment Benefit, South Wales
  Extended Unemployment Benefit, South Wales
  Dental Benefit
  Dental Benefit
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (CLAIMS)
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (CLAIMS)
CIVIL SERVICE
  Grounds of Dismissal
  Grounds of Dismissal
  Temporary Clerks' Organisations (Recognition)
  Temporary Clerks' Organisations (Recognition)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Food Subsidies
  Food Subsidies
  Former Prime Minister (Pension)
  Former Prime Minister (Pension)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Mining Machinery Exports
  Mining Machinery Exports
  Newsprint
  Newsprint
  Gas Mantles
  Gas Mantles
  Boot and Shoe Production (Fuel Emergency)
  Boot and Shoe Production (Fuel Emergency)
  Hosiery Industry, Hong Kong (Rehabilitation)
  Hosiery Industry, Hong Kong (Rehabilitation)
  Motor Cars (Imports)
  Motor Cars (Imports)
  Merino and Crossbred Yarns
  Merino and Crossbred Yarns
EMPLOYMENT
  Building Industry (Inquiry)
  Building Industry (Inquiry)
  Prewar Trade Practices (Restoration)
  Prewar Trade Practices (Restoration)
  Disabled Persons, Normanton
  Disabled Persons, Normanton
  Building Trade Trainees, Edinburgh
  Building Trade Trainees, Edinburgh
  Poles
  Poles
  Disablement Advisory Committees
  Disablement Advisory Committees
  Re-employed Miners (Allowances)
  Re-employed Miners (Allowances)
  Factory, Eccles (Labour)
  Factory, Eccles (Labour)
  Paint Industry (Employees)
  Paint Industry (Employees)
  Training Facilities, North Staffordshire
  Training Facilities, North Staffordshire
NATIONAL SERVICE
  Students
  Students
  Farm Workers
  Farm Workers
  Statistics
  Statistics
  COST-OF-LIVING ADVISORY COMMITTEE
  COST-OF-LIVING ADVISORY COMMITTEE
HOUSING (SCOTLAND)
  1947 Programme
  1947 Programme
  Ex-Servicemen
  Ex-Servicemen
  Rural Workers
  Rural Workers
SCOTLAND
  Bracken Cutting Scheme
  Bracken Cutting Scheme
  Continuation Classes (Salaries)
  Continuation Classes (Salaries)
  COAST PROTECTION
  COAST PROTECTION
  MOTOR CARS (PRIORITY)
  MOTOR CARS (PRIORITY)
  CANCER
  CANCER
  NORTH ATLANTIC SHIPPING
  NORTH ATLANTIC SHIPPING
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Cast-Iron Scrap, Aberdeen (Supplies)
  Cast-Iron Scrap, Aberdeen (Supplies)
  Directorate of Disposals (Staff)
  Directorate of Disposals (Staff)
  Cable Clips
  Cable Clips
  Steel (Motor Industry)
  Steel (Motor Industry)
  Armaments (Steel Consumption)
  Armaments (Steel Consumption)
COAL INDUSTRY
  Five-day Week
  Five-day Week
  Compensation Cases (Employment)
  Compensation Cases (Employment)
  EAST AFRICA (DISEASES)
  EAST AFRICA (DISEASES)
  JAPANESE YARN (PRICE)
  JAPANESE YARN (PRICE)
  CROPS, SOMERSET
  CROPS, SOMERSET
  PILLAR BOXES
  PILLAR BOXES
  EMERGENCY POWERS (DURATION)
  EMERGENCY POWERS (DURATION)
  TEACHERS (APPOINTMENT)
  TEACHERS (APPOINTMENT)
  HUNGARY (BRITISH NOTE)
  HUNGARY (BRITISH NOTE)
  BURMA FRONTIER AREAS (AGREEMENT)
  BURMA FRONTIER AREAS (AGREEMENT)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Milk
  Milk
  Canned Bacon
  Canned Bacon
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  CIVIC RESTAURANTS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
COTTON INDUSTRY WAR MEMORIAL TRUST BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.

SCIENTIFIC TREATMENT OF DELINQUENCY.
2.36 p.m.
Lord HOLDEN: My Lords, I beg to ask the question which stands in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to the suggestion in the Press that the work of the Institute for the Scientific Treatment of Delinquency may shortly have to be discontinued through lack of funds; and whether in view of its growing importance in the cure of delinquents and the prevention of crime, His Majesty's Government would consider assisting the Institute with a grant from public funds.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT JOWITT): My Lords, the noble Lord no doubt refers to the recent letter in The Times appealing for voluntary support to enable the Institute for the Scientific Treatment of Delinquency to carry on their work. The Government are aware of the useful work done by the Institute in two directions; first, in the diagnosis and treatment of offenders of all ages, who are referred to the Institute by the Courts or are otherwise put in touch with it; and secondly, in arranging specialized courses of training for social workers and others. Payments from public funds are made to the Institute in respect of certain services
950
rendered at the request of Government Departments; for example, in arranging lectures for probation officers in training. I understand also that some of the Courts which make use of the services of the Institute have given donations from charitable funds which are at their disposal.
The suggestion of a subsidy from public funds for the general work of the Institute would, however, raise a number of questions requiring caref al consideration. There is the question whether State grants would result in the drying up of voluntary funds. There is also the question of what other organizations doing similar work would have an equally strong claim to assistance and, moreover, there is the question of the future position of clinics of this kind in relation to the National Health Service. While, therefore, I sympathize with the motives which have prompted the noble Lord to call attention to the matter, it is impossible for me on present information to give encouragement to the suggestion that there should be a direct grant from public funds for the general work of the Institute.

COAL IMPORTS.
2.38 p.m.
Lord DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, I beg to ask the question which stands in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether in view of the Prime Minister's statement in another place on March 12 last that coal would be imported from abroad if it was procurable, inquiries have been put to the Government of the U.S.A. and to the Government of the Union of South Africa as to the amount of coal that can be made available for export 'to Great Britain from those countries during the current year, and with what result.]
Lord CHORLEY: My Lords, this matter is now under discussion with the Governments concerned. I am afraid I am not in a position to make a statement to-day, but my right honourable friend the Minister of Fuel and Power hopes to make a statement in another place tomorrow.
LORD DE L'ISLE and DUDLEY: Whilst thanking the noble Lord for his

951
reply, may I ask whether it would be possible to have a similar statement made in this House to-morrow?
Lord CHORLEY: Certainly.

GERMAN PRISONERS AND AGRICULTURE.
Viscount ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether in view of the very serious conditions existing in the agricultural industry they will consider delaying the return of German prisoners of war, reported to be leaving this country at the rate of 15,000 a month.]
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lord PAKENHAM): My Lords, His Majesty's Government do not consider it necessary to vary the arrangements for the repatriation of German prisoners of war, but arrangements are now being worked out under which German prisoners of war whom farmers are willing to retain and are able to provide with accommodation will be allowed to volunteer to remain here for a period as civilians.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Whilst thanking the noble Lord for that answer, and for the suggestion in it that a certain amount will be done in the direction I am seeking, I should like to ask the Government whether they are not impressed by the fact that the German nation is primarily responsible for the parlous condition in which we find ourselves to-day. Why is it that, whilst the Russians and the French are to be given until January, 1949, to send back all their prisoners of war, we should, in spite of similar necessity, return ours at once? We seem always to be setting an example to other nations without getting any quid pro quo. Our disarming after the first Great War is a very good example of this. I wish to ask the noble Lord whether the Government have taken notice of these facts in coming to this decision.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: Before the noble Lord replies, may I ask him for what period of time he intends that Ger-
952
man prisoners of war should be allowed to remain in this country?
LORD PAKENHAM: May I reply to the second question first? The arrangements are now under consideration and they have not been finally approved. It is suggested that in the first instance the contracts with Germans who elect to remain in the scheme would be for the period to the end of December, 1947, but that there should be a prospect of extension and that towards the end of the year a possible extension of contract should be considered in the light of conditions then existing. As to the supplementary question put by the noble Viscount, I would refer him to the debate in this House on February 12 last, when the whole matter was very fully discussed and a careful statement was made on behalf of the Government.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I suggest to the noble Lord that various things have happened since that debate? It is only within the last few days that we have learned that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has agreed that Russia, France and, I think, other countries shall retain their prisoners of war until the beginning of 1949. That has taken place since that debate, and consequently I put it forward as a new fact altogether.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932. COUNTY BOROUGH OF BARNSLEY ORDER: URBAN DISTRICT OF NORTHWICH ORDER: URBAN DISTRICT OF WARE ORDER.
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made under the Act by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending Section 1 of the Act to the said areas, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMPANIES BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 2:
Length of notice of meetings and of business thereat.
2.—(1) For paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of section one hundred and fifteen of the

953
principal Act (which, subject to the company's articles, provides that a meeting of a company other than a meeting for the passing of a special resolution may be called by seven days' notice in writing) there shall be substituted the following paragraph:— "
(a) a company's annual general meeting may be called by twenty-one days' notice in writing, and a meeting of a company other than an annual general meeting or a meeting for the passing of a special resolution may be called by fourteen days' notice in writing;"
(6) Where by any provision hereafter contained in this Act special notice is' required, of a resolution, the resolution shall not be effective unless notice of the intention to move it has been given to the company not less than twenty-eight days before the meeting at which it is moved, and the company shall give its members notice of any such resolution at the same time and in the same manner as it gives notice of the meeting or, if that is not practicable, shall give them notice thereof, either by advertisement or in any other mode allowed by the articles, not less than twenty-one days before the meeting:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this small Amendment was indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, on recommitment but it was not then accepted. On reflection I think it is reasonable that it should be accepted. The effect of it is to allow a meeting of an unlimited company, other than an annual general meeting or a meeting for the passing of a special resolution, to be called at seven days' notice in writing, instead of the fourteen days' notice laid down for companies generally. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 35, at end insert ("or, in the case of an unlimited company, by seven days' notice in writing").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I said all I wanted to say on this point on the previous occasion, but I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for the way in which he has met the reasoned case on this Amendment, as well as on a very large number of other Amendments.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment arises from a suggestion which emanated from the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham. I do not know whether it adds very much, because of course we cannot attempt to define what "appropriate" is. At any rate it is a signpost which points in the right direction, and I think it will be
954
useful to have these words inserted. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 13, after ("advertisement") insert ("in a newspaper having an appropriate circulation").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I think these words will probably carry out what I wish, although I am not sure that they are an improvement on the words which come in Table A of the existing Act. I think "appropriate circulation" would probably mean the district, and it might also mean large enough to reach the shareholders in question. But there is, of course, a difficuay about defining it, and in the circumstances I would simply thank the noble Viscount for the step he has taken in this matter.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14 [Obligation to lay group accounts before holding company]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the only effect of the next Amendment is to show that the words "group accounts"—which I am sure, wisely, we do not attempt to define—is a term of art. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 14, page 13, Line 4, leave out ("group accounts dealing") and insert ("accounts or statements (in this Act referred to as ' group accounts ') dealing as hereinafter mentioned").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to. Fourth Schedule:
Amendments of Third and Fifth Schedules to Principal Act.
2.—(I) In the said Third Schedule there shall be inserted at the end of the entry relating to the vendors of property purchased or acquired or proposed to be purchased or acquired the words "except where the contract for its purchase or acquisition was entered into in the ordinary course of business or the amount of the purchase money is not material."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the next Amendment is really consequential on an Amendment to Clause 59 (2). I am not sure that we have got the final form of words, but I offer these to the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, as an earnest of the fact that we have this point in mind, and are careful to see that we so word the Fourth Schedule as properly to marry it with the new provisions of Clause 59 (2).
Amendment moved—
Fourth Schedule, page 119, line 30, leave out ("or") and insert ("and there is no connexion between the contract and the company ceasing to be a private company or where").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended (in pursuance of the Resolution of March 24):
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. I should say that I have it in command from His Majesty to acquaint this House that His Majesty, having been informed of the contents of the Companies Bill, is pleased to give his consent so far as His Majesty's interest is concerned on behalf of the Crown, of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall, that the House shall proceed therein as they shall think fit.
I hope it will be useful and not unduly tedious to your Lordships if before we finally part with this Bill I review briefly some of the provisions and the alterations we have made. Since this Bill was introduced on Second Reading the form and substance of the Bill has, in many important respects, been changed. We have been concentrating on isolated sections of the Bill and, I may use the well-known metaphor, we have so concerned ourselves with looking at particular trees that perhaps we do not now realize the shape of the wood we are leaving behind us. Several of your Lordships in various parts of the House have suggested that it might be useful, therefore, if I were to give a brief summary of the Bill as it now stands.
We have disposed of over 300 Amendments. The first point about which I would like to remind your Lordships concerns the position of nominee shareholders. I confess that when the Cohen Committee were appointed I was strongly in favour of this particular matter being reviewed, and I hoped that the whole business of nominee shareholders was once and for all to be done away with. But I confess that having read their Report—and in particular paragraph 78 —I was surprised to find to what a large extent nominee shareholdings were used for perfectly legitimate purposes. I wanted to do away with nominee shareholdings, largely because it had come to
956
my knowledge that directors of companies were themselves operating in the shares of their own companies in the names of nominees. I discovered, greatly to my surprise, that the Committee did not seem to think there was any impropriety in so doing. That evil has now been dealt with, in that the group of Clauses 35 to 39 of the present Bill deals, with that matter quite satisfactorily. But there remains, of course, the broad question as to whether or not the register of shareholdings should reveal the real ownership of the shares in all cases. The Cohen Committee shrank from that conclusion, but they accepted a compromise that in cases where a shareholder was an owner of more than 1 per cent. of any class of issued share capital it should be declared on the register.
I confess I have always had grave doubts as to whether any such compromise would work. I believe in this case it is either all or none, and by that I mean you must say either that there must be no nominee shareholdings at all, or the reverse. I think it will be very difficult indeed to calculate in any particular case as to whether or no the shareholding did amount to 1 per cent., and I am quite certain we should be in great difficulties if we were to attempt to define what constitutes a real ownership of the shares. I confess that when the Bill which carried out the Cohen Committee's recommendations was before your Lordships' House, I had grave doubts about those clauses. They have been criticized by noble Lords on the ground that whereas they would give a great deal of extra work to registrars of companies at the present time, they would not succeed in catching the sort of person we want to catch; he would almost inevitably find a loophole which would enable him to get through the net. On the discussion in your Lordships' House I came to the conclusion that the labour involved—and make no doubt about this—to re-write all the registers, would be very substantial. I came to the conclusion that that labour was not worth the resulting catch.
If I had been able to discover any satisfactory way of dealing with evasion I would have pressed these clauses upon your Lordships, but I confess that, having given great time and thought to this matter, I was unable to evolve any scheme which would have prevented it. Therefore, I thought that the sensible thing to

957
do was to abandon those clauses in return for a right of inspection by the Board of Trade, powers which are very much more drastic than any powers the Board of Trade have hitherto enjoyed. These drastic powers should in particular serve to reinforce the clauses requiring directors to disclose their dealings, and they should enable the Board of Trade to deal with any cases where it appears to them that there have been undesirable transactions, and where investigation is therefore clearly desirable. The provisions must necessarily be experimental, and the Government will be able to judge in the light of their working whether further powers are required. So much for the nominee position.
Now with regard to accounts, I should like to make it quite plain that we have not departed from the proposals which are designed to secure that the accounts of a company must give a fair and true view of the state of the company's affairs, and of its profit and loss. Where there is a group of companies, the accounts of the group must give a fair and true view of the group and the profit and loss of the group. We have made no change in this drastic principle, but we have allowed more latitude—and I think rightly—to the directors, both in the details which they have to present and in their manner of presentation. The whole is subject to the scrutiny of the auditors, and so the law will ensure that shareholders shall get a fair and true view of the finances of the body of which they are members. The detailed requirements are set out in the First Schedule, which can be modified by Regulation. To guarantee the business community against arbitrary exercise of departmental power, it is now provided that Regulations making more onerous the requirements of the First Schedule will have to be affirmed by affirmative Resolution of both Houses' of Parliament. On the other hand, if it should be desired to ease the burden for the business community, particularly where action may have to be taken quickly, requirements can be made subject only to the right of either House to present an Address against them within the usual period.
With regard to accountants, we are placing grater responsibility by, this Bill on the accountancy profession than there is under the existing Act. It is most important therefore that auditors should be skilled. The clause which deals with the qualifications of auditors does not go so
958
far as some members of the profession would wish, and in particular doubts have, been raised whether under the clause as drawn persons might qualify as auditors who are not really skilled to undertake their duties. All I can say is that this Bill seeks to do no more than to carry out strictly the recommendations of the Cohen Committee. These recommendations go beyond the existing law, but a rule ordering all the profession can be made only in a Bill especially directed to that purpose. Such a Bill is being prepared by the accountancy profession.
As to exempt private companies, we have made the Amendment that an exempt private company may hold shares in another such company without the latter ceasing to be an exempt private company. This is subject to the stringent conditions laid down in the Third Schedule that individual members of any such group must in the aggregate not exceed fifty. The point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cozens-Hardy, as to a trustee holding shares for employees, will receive further consideration before the Bill reaches another place. Companies, whether they are of limited or of unlimited liability, may be public companies, private companies or exempt private companies. But in any case they must let the shareholders have all the accounts and in any case they must rely on the discretion and good sense of the shareholders not to publish them.
On the matter of the necessity for the disclosure of inner reserves, I have seen some criticism of the Amendment we accepted by which the Government are empowered to exempt companies of a class from having to disclose reserves. I do not think such criticisms are well founded. The obligation to disclose inner reserves is now introduced for the first time into our Company Law and we must proceed with caution. It has been represented to me with great cogency that national interests might be prejudiced by the requirement, and the Government so far concur that they consider that power should be taken in this Bill to dispense particular interests from this requirement. Any exemption will be subject to the stringent conditions which will be laid down from time to time by the Board of Trade. These conditions would certainly provide that where dividends are paid otherwise than out of current profits the fact will have to be disclosed in the accounts: and if it is a fact that all the

959
goods are not put in the shop window, the shop window must no be so dressed as to suggest that the financial position of the company is better than it really is. In any case these powers would be exercised only in the national interest.
With regard to special notice, I would say this. The Cohen Committee rightly made a recommendation to make it easier for shareholders to get rid of directors who did not carry out their duties satisfactorily, and they also recommended that over-age directors should not be retained unless there was some provision in the articles of the company fixing the age limit, or unless the term of office of such a director was continued by a special resolution of the company. The special resolution is, I think, a procedure more suited for matters such as changes in the constitution of a company than for such day-to-day or year-to-year matters as the appointment of directors. On the other hand, there is a danger that a snap vote may be taken to the embarrassment of directors and to the detriment of the company. This applies equally to the removal and appointment of auditors, a matter which was raised during the Second Reading discussion.
Therefore we have devised in this Bill something between the ordinary resolution and special resolution: special notice. The principle is that the simple majority rule should prevail in these matters but precautions should be taken against a snap vote or shareholders not being fully apprised of the matter at issue. Therefore, anybody wishing to any of these serious proposals is required to do so by special notice, whiCh_means giving not less than twenty-eight days' notice to the company. It is, however, subject to this important proviso that where an annual general meeting—requiring twenty-one days' notice—or an ordinary general meeting is called after the receipt of the special notice, the resolution which it is proposed to move can be moved at that meeting; but if a special notice is handed in after such a meeting has been called, the matter raised in it cannot be taken at that meeting. Questions were raised as to whether this affords sufficient safeguards against the risk of trouble and expense to which a company might be put if a disgruntled shareholder, anxious to air a grievance and to advertise himself, were to submit to the company twenty of
960
eight days' notice of a resolution which the company in turn-would have to send round to shareholders and which it was pointed out might involve the company in considerable trouble and expense. It was suggested that the matter might be looked at rather from the point of view of a Parliamentary election, where unless the candidate polls a certain proportion of the votes he loses his deposit.
It would be difficult to apply the analogy because it would be hard to discover what proportion of votes were cast supporting the shareholder's proposal, and I am doubtful whether we could work out a scheme on those lines. Moreover I am doubtful whether in practice a company would find itself involved in extra expense. The company would almost certainly have to circularize the shareholders, and in practice it would probably be that they would merely have put at the end of the notice the resolution from the disgruntled shareholder. I confess I think the matter needs further consideration, I think there is danger which we must try to guard against here, and this is a matter which is under examination. If we find some satisfactory way of dealing with it we will suggest an Amendment in another place. I need not say much about placing. We have done what we could to try and distinguish between an offer issued to the public and one which is a private issue, and we have made our proposals in regard to that matter.
I should like to say one or two words further about the retirement of directors, because I think there is some misapprehension about the proposals of the Bill in that regard. The general rule now in the Bill is this: that a director who attains the age of 7c will vacate office at the conclusion of the first annual general meeting after he attains that age. But this rule is subject la certain-exceptions, three of them being of a permanent and one of them of a transitional character. I will state first of all, if I may, what are the permanent exceptions to, or qualifications of, the rule. The first is this. A new director of 70 or more can be appointed, or an existing director who reaches the age of 70 can be continued in office, if his appointment is made or approved by the company in general meeting subject to special notice having been given of the resolution appointing or approving the appointment of the director and subject to this age being stated.

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The second is that in the case of a company registered after January 1, 1947, the whole matter is subject to the company's articles, and the company can make whatever provision it likes on the subject of the retirement of directors. The third is that in the case of a company registered before the beginning of 1947, the matter is subject to any alterations of the company's articles made after the beginning of 1947. Changes in the articles made before that date are over-ridden by the clause, except that where the articles contain a provision for retirement of directors under an age limit or for preventing or restricting appointments of directors over a given age, the clause does not apply to directors to whom such a provision in the articles applies.
Now I come to the transitional provision. This is as follows: A director who is in office at the date when the section comes into force can remain in office, notwithstanding that he is 70 or more, but he will have to retire when his period of office ends or before the conclusion of the third annual general meeting after the section comes into force, whichever is the earlier date. Thus, for example, if the section comes into force on January 1, 1948, and the director is 70 at the time but his period of office does not end until March 1, 1950, he will retire then. So your Lordships will realize that a director having reached the age of 70, and the Bill then having the force of an Act, if he is due to retire in the ordinary way by rotation he then, of course, is subject to the provisions of the Act, and he can only be re-elected after the appropriate special notice has been given. I hope that that makes the matter plain, because I think it is desirable that business men should know what is proposed at the present time.
There is one other matter, and I think it is the last which I need mention specifically. It is with regard to the question of turnover. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, put forward an eloquent plea that the turnover of a company should be disclosed in the accounts. It may be that something of this sort will be required in the future, but the question which he has raised is by no means an easy one to decide. There is already—and will, under the new Bill, be far more—greater general publicity than there is in many other countries, and before accepting the proposal it would be necessary to make sure that many of the smaller and medium sized businesses would
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not be adversely affected. The Government have not got closed minds on this matter and the whole question w ill be considered further with a view to seeing whether we ought to make any alterations on those lines or not. But I must warn the noble Lord that the matter is one which, as I know, bristles with difficulties.
I apologize for detaining your Lordships for so long in dealing with some of these detailed provisions. But your Lordships will remember that it is twenty years since the last Companies (Amendment) Act was before Parliament, and since that time there have been great developments in accountancy practice and great developments in relation to company organization. We have had to deal, in the present Bill, with many new problems of a most complex nature. This Bill goes down to another place not as my Bill and not as my Party's Bill; it goes down to the other place as a real contribution made by members on all sides of your Lordships' House in trying to work out a very difficult problem. It is to me, I confess, a matter of great personal satisfaction that, having dealt with and disposed of over 300 Amendments, we have not had a single Division on any one of them. I beg to move that the Bill be now given a Third Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.6 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, has added to the debt under which he has laid us during the long and fruitful passage of the Bill through this House by the very clear and agreeable summary which he has just given us. I am glad, for many reasons, to have been so closely associated with this Bill. I can claim the paternity of the Act of 1908 which has now been so much amended, and so rightly amended, and perhaps I may claim to be a godfather or one of the godfathers of this Bill. I said, when the Bill was introduced here, that I did not think there was any assembly or tribunal more competent to make a practical Companies Act than your Lordships' House. It contains all the experience, legal, business, commercial, financial and administrative, which is necessary for such a task, as well as representing, so to speak, the man in the street, the ordinary investor, and, possibly, in one

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quarter of the House or another, an occasional plunger or two. After all, we want to consider all interests, but we should not have made the Bill anything like so good a measure as we have done if the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, had not given such an enormous amount of personal time and trouble to this work. He has been good enough to invite me and a few others to work with him, and I know how much labour has gone into this measure.
What I have just said also applies to the very wise advisers whose assistance the noble and learned Viscount has had—advisers from the Companies Department of the Board of Trade, the draftsmen, and the practical accountants—without whose help we certainly could not have recast these complicated schedules. I have had handed to me some statistics which I am afraid I can hardly read, but I gather that some tens of thousands of words have gone into these Amendments. As your Lordships know, 300 Amendments have been proposed, and nearly every one has been accepted, either in the form in which it was proposed or in a better form, as the result of our co-operating to make proposals more practicable. Moreover, as the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, has just observed, we have not had a single Division.
I think it is a good Bill. It may require alteration here and there, but in a complicated matter like the practice of Company Law one must proceed by trial and error. I think it is convenient, particularly when we are laying down not hard and fast rules but general principles and model forms in the way accounts should be kept, that there should be an easy way of altering them if experience proves this to be desirable. It is a typically English way. In fact, it is the typically English Parliamentary procedure that has been followed: that of saying that if you want to make things easier you can do it by negative Resolution, but if you want to make things stricter then you must go to both Houses and get an affirmative Resolution—which is tantamount to an Act of Parliament.
Some of the matters which loomed largest in the nubile eye were not the most important. There has been much talk about this nominee business. Like the
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noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, I approached this problem with the idea that it might be a good plan to get rid of the nominees altogether. The Cohen Committee unanimously said that that would be quite impossible and would do more harm than good; it would interfere with a great deal of practical business, and particularly with the business of people who are abroad. I do not think we could have gone forward in the face of that, and I am quite certain that the sort of compromises which the Cohen Committee proposed are utterly impracticable. It is impossible to have a sort of halfway house; one has either to abandon the system of nominees or have some other way of doing it. May I respectfully say to the House that from my experience during the four periods when I was President of the Board of Trade I am quite certain that, in the interests of the general public as well as the general convenience of business, it is far better to give the President of the Board of Trade a wide general power of investigation on his own motion than it is to try and hedge round the whole administration of companies with a great ring of restrictions. In that way action can be taken quickly and where it is necessary.
What has been done with regard to accounts is also very English and very practical. We have laid down the principle that those who are responsible for the conduct of a company must tell not only the true story but also the full story. These accounts must be informative, but they need not be uniform. Indeed, if it were laid down that they should be uniform I believe that in many cases they would be singularly uninformative, because a variety of businesses cannot conform to a sealed pattern. What is done is that a theme is set with occasional variations. A true and a full story has to be told, but it has to be told in the form most convenient to the particular set of readers. That is very sensible and very practical.
Perhaps I shall take a more anxious view with regard to the removal of directors at the age of 70 when I approach more closely that climacteric, but they have had rather a good run for their money. I am not at all averse from saying that shareholders should decide whether or not they want to keep on such directors. There are some directors whom they would very much like to keep on but it would be a very good

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way of trying to get rid of others with tact. It is sometimes very hard, because people say: "If we get rid of Jones we shall not be able to keep Smith." This is not because Smith likes Jones, but because of the great and collective responsibility which animates members of boards, as it also animates members of Governments, and enables them to hang together. I think the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, has been liberal, and probaby rightly so.
I hope the question of the removal of directors will be looked at carefully. I do not wholly share the view of my noble and learned friend Viscount Maugham, although I think it is a strong thing to have a resolution removing a director and I do not think we ought to pass that very lightly. On the other hand, it is right that there should be power in the hands of the shareholders to remove a director; if they wish to, on notice. But in the interests of the director, of the company, and of the general body of shareholders, it ought to be impossible to start purely frivolous motions. I offered the idea of forfeiting a deposit, and I do not think the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, was very convincing in his reply to it. Neither he nor I have to go through that form of election any more—but the point of not knowing how many votes have been cast is not a good point, because a poll can always be taken. I think there ought to be a deposit, though I do not pledge myself on the size. But if the motion is clearly frivolous, the director has been most unfairly attacked, the company put to considerable expense and the other shareholders to a great deal of bother and annoyance, then there ought to be some way of penalizing the person responsible.
With regard to the disclosure of reserves, as a general rule I am quite sure, on consideration, that they ought to be disclosed. There are cases where they ought not to be disclosed, but in that regard I entirely agree with the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor: the test is entirely one of public and national interest, and nothing else. It is not a question of giving favour to this or that company or this or that type of business; the only exception should be where unquestionably it is in the national interest. And where it is in the national interest that there should be no dis-
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closure, it is also in the interest of the shareholders of the company itself.
The difficulty in trying to make a great Companies Act that will be a charter, under which the business of the country is conducted for ten or twenty years (it is twenty years since we last reviewed the law) is that one has to steer between Scylla and Charybdis, between preventing, so far as one can, wrong things happening, and, at the same time, not handicapping normal decent businesses which form the great bulk of business. It is easy to make a case by quoting some particular fraud or rogue and say:"Let us try and put up a whole set of barbed wire entanglements which will prevent a fellow like that getting away, "but you probably do not catch that man, whereas you make the business of hundreds of other people quite impossible. The way to catch a man is by powers of inspection vested in the Board of Trade. Indeed the criminal law provides for such a position, if a man has done something wrong. That power of inspection, the power to be able to go into the company's affairs, will, I believe, be a much better way of catching a rogue. However much you legislate, you will not turn a bad investment into a good investment, nor a bad investor into a good investor. All you can do is to see that business is honourably and honestly conducted, and that the ordinary, sane, practical investor knows the state of his investments. I think we have succeeded in the Bill in doing that, and I believe we are sending from this House a fair and practicable charter which will serve both the interests of investors and the interests of English business in the years to come.
3.23 p.m.
LORDRENNELL: My Lords, may I apologize, in the first place, for not having been here when the Third Reading was introduced by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack? I was held up, I regret to say, by the traffic. I do not wish to follow the noble and learned Viscount into any examination of the Bill, and I can usefully do no more than say that I agree with everything he said. I agree in particular that this Bill reflects the greatest credit on your Lordships' House and on those who have taken part in it by the contribution of different ideas to a common end. That end has been achieved without any personal disagreement between any of the Parties who took part in the many debates, both in your

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Lordships' Chamber and elsewhere. The result has possibly been one of the most valuable contributions by your Lordships —certainly during my very short experience in your Lordships' House—and it is one which is likely, so far as I am concerned, to remain a very living and a very real memory of what can be done by people who have all tried to make their utmost contribution.
The only two points in the Bill to which I think it necessary to allude are both points which the noble and learned Viscount has already raised. One of them is that of the nominee clauses, in respect of which, for better or worse, I was the protagonist in moving complete rejection, not because I found myself in any disagreement with the motives which prompted either the Cohen Committee or those who were responsible in the first place for drafting this Bill as to the objects to be achieved by those nominee clauses, but because I believed they would be wholly impracticable in the form in which they stood, or indeed, in any other form put forward in the course of the discussion which we had. I would like to say here and now that I believe disclosure of real ownership and control of companies is necessary and desirable. It is perhaps regrettable, but also perhaps inevitable, that this form of nominee holdings was adopted, but, it having been adopted, the methods for dealing with it which were presented in the first draft of this Bill were not methods which would, in fact, eliminate the difficulties which have arisen.
The second point to which I think it appropriate to draw attention is that of the form of accounts. I agree that the schedules have been made immensely wider, and far more practicable and able to cope in their present form with the manifold manifestations of human activity in companies. It is arguable whether any standardized form, even in the broadest possible terms, is really practicable. That we shall he able to see only after some years' experience of the operation of this Bill. Provision has been made for modifying the set-up in the schedules which have been presented to your Lordships' House. I am still doubtful about some of the clauses on the purely practical issue, though not indeed, as on the nominee clauses, on the objects which it is intended to achieve.
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I would like to say, without any reticence and without any flattery, that the help, advice and assistance which we have received, not only from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack but from his advisers; the contacts which we have made with them, and the several and individual contributions made in the course of the presentation of the clauses in the Committee stage by the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, and by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, have been of the utmost possible assistance to all of us, certainly to me, and I am profoundly and personally grateful for what has been done. I hope that the contact which has been established on these subjects, not only between those who took part in this Bill in your Lordships' House but with the advisers who have advised the Lord Chancellor, is a contact which may he maintained hereafter for the greater good of the community as a whole.
Your Lordships on the opposite Benches will perhaps forgive me if I say that I think this Bill is perhaps the most constructive and valuable of the considerable volume of legislation which has been presented in this Parliament to date. Noble Lords opposite may not agree with me, but I shall retain that opinion. But if that proves to be a worthy opinion, it will only be so because of the several contributions made to the Bill. I hope that this Bill will serve as a model for further Acts which will be passed by Parliament in the years to come and which will be threshed out and produced in the form of an agreed presentation for the greater good of the community of which we all form part.
3.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, I should like to add a very few words. I need not throw any more bouquets in the direction of the Woolsack; it is sufficient to say that I think the noble and learned Viscount deserves the bouquets he has received. My noble friend Viscount Swinton, in a sentence which I thought required a little amendment, suggested that I was against the possibility of removing a director from his directorship before his term had expired. That was not in my mind at all, and I must have used very inaccurate language if he ever thought, in the various speeches I made on this subject, that I intended such a course. For about twenty years there

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has been a section in the existing Act of Parliament under which directors are removable by an extraordinary resolution. What shocked me, when I read this Bill in its first stage, was the notion that a mere ordinary resolution, without any special form of notice given in respect of it, proposed by one mischievous or disagreeable shareholder, could result, if there was a badly-attended meeting, in a director being removed from office.
The probability that the fact that a man was being removed from his office as director would he widely advertised or known in a particular district made it no better from my point of view. The question of removal has this peculiarity. I do not know of anybody occupying any position of importance in the whole of our economy being removed without any reason given, or without any suggestion that he has been guilty of an impropriety either in public or in private; but in this case a mere resolution might be moved removing a director. I think a director should only be removed if there is some widespread belief among the members of the company that his continuance in office is quite wrong. That is why the extraordinary resolution under the existing section, which insists on a three-fourths majority, has worked well in practice.
I think have stated before that it has worked well because that section has been practically a dead letter, and unless a director became known as having done something wrong or having been dishonest or convicted of some offence in the past, nobody ever thought of an extraordinary resolution. Accordingly, in my belief it is only in a handful of cases, at the most, in the thousands of companies which exist in this country that such a resolution has been moved at all. I am afraid I remain absolutely convinced that the clause as it stands is unwise.
Although I must admit that I am not very easily converted in a matter with which I have been concerned for fifty years, that is not what gives strength to my idea; it is the fact that the bigger institutions in this country concerned with the matter (the Law Society is one and some of the federations are others) have urged me to raise this question in the House and to maintain it to the best of my power. I do earnestly hope that when the Bill comes before another place this clause will be so altered that mere dislike, mere prejudice, or some fancy of that sort
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or perhaps a feeling that a particular director is hostile to the interests of somebody who chooses to move such a motion, shall not be at the bottom of a resolution being put forward. As I say, I believe all the big institutions of the country connected with matters of this sort agree with me on this point. I hope that your Lordships will not take it amiss—since the matter was raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton—that I should repeat what is my view. With regard to the rest of the Bill, I may say that I moved a number of the 300 Amendments which were before your Lordships' House. I succeeded on some and I failed on others. I am not quite sure what my record is, but I think on the whole, with the exception of the point which I have mentioned, I may feel that on those in which I failed there were reasonable grounds for their not being accepted. So, wishing good luck to this Bill, which I believe on the whole is a great improvement, I must support the present Motion.
3.32 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am indeed grateful to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for his very careful review of the provisions of the Bill which is now leaving your Lordships' House. I feel that this will go a long way towards clearing up a lot of doubts and misapprehensions, particularly those caused by the elimination of the nominee shareholding clauses. I think perhaps the very wise words which the noble and learned Viscount has used will satisfy quite a lot of the critics who have been so critical about removing those clauses from the Bill. I am also deeply appreciative of the kind and encouraging things which the noble and learned Viscount said in his concluding passages. I am most appreciative of the phrase which he used about my advocacy of the Amendment which I placed before your Lordships for the inclusion in the First Schedule of a provision for the disclosure of turnover. I can only regret that my advocacy was not sufficiently strong to stir in the breasts of noble Lords the same approbation as it did in the editorials of all the financial newspapers of the country. Perhaps that has brought enlightenment to the noble and learned Viscount's advisers. I have always had the impression that the noble and learned Viscount's heart was never in his refusal to accept my Amendment, so

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perhaps on the passage from your Lordships' House to another place he may be able to convert his advisers and guide them into the path of rectitude and enlightenment.
On Question, Bill read 3a; Amendments (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND)BILL. [H.L.]
3.40 p.m.
LORD MORRISON: My Lords, I beg to move the Resolution which stands in my name.
Moved to resolve, That it is desirable that the Bill be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament.— (Lord Morrison.)
On Question, Resolution agreed to, and ordered: That a message be sent to the Commons to communicate this Resolution and to desire their concurrence.

AIDS TO AIR NAVIGATION.
3.41 p.m.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE rose to ask His Majesty's Government, what is the present position with regard to meteorological and air navigational aids, including F.I.D.O. and radio and radar; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will bear with me for a moment if I submit a small personal explanation as to how it is that this Motion comes before your Lordships' House today. In the latter part of last year we had a discussion in this House about the necessity for the continuance of petrol rationing, and it was explained by His Majesty's Government that it was necessary to continue to ration petrol because of the dollar expenditure which was involved. At about that time there was a run of bad accidents in the air, and there was considerable agitation in the Press that something should be done about it, particularly in the direction of the extension and use of F.I.D.O. installations. F.I.D.O. installations, of course, depend for their operation on an enormous amount of petrol, and as the motor world had been told that it could not have more petrol because of the dollar expenditure involved, it seemed that further con-
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sideration might be able to be given to the F.I.D.O. question.
Accordingly, I gave notice:
"To ask His Majesty's Government: How many F.I.D.O. installations are now operational in the country; how much they have been used in the last year; what fuel is required for use in a F.I.D.O. installation; what is the fuel consumption per hour when in use; what is the cost of (a) Installation; (b) Operation per hour; whether it is intended further to extend the number of such installations in view of the shortage of dollars, and improved radar and radio equipment."
That question was placed on to the Order Paper, but on the first occasion on which it was due to come up the noble Lord, the Minister of Civil Aviation, was unfortunately not able to be in his place, and I had to postpone it. On the second occasion when it arose the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, indicated that he might be able to make an important statement of policy if I would draft my question in the form of a Motion. Of course, I was only too delighted to do what I could to help, and so it is that the Motion appears in its present form on the Order Paper.
Since the time when I put my question on the Order Paper I have discovered a little more about F.I.D.O. than I knew at that time. I will return to that matter in a moment or two. I do not want to pose as being in any way an authority on air questions. I have, as a matter of fact, always been extremely interested in the air. I was one of the people who saw the first aviator fly the circular mile outside Paris, and I attended every aviation meeting in the early days of flying, when it was a remarkable thing to see an aeroplane in the air. I was one of the unfortunate spectators on the occasion of the death of the Honourable C. S. Roe, whose name is a household word in this country to-day. Apart from that, my interest in the air is merely as a passenger. I only wish the noble Lord, the Secretary of State for India, could be here to-day to hear me, because he would no doubt be thrilled to think of me, arming myself with my minute piece of chewing gum and stepping on board an aeroplane in trepidation of what might happen. I have been a very frequent passenger in aeroplanes belonging to many different countries, both in war-time and peace-time.
We have recently had, as we all know only too well, an appalling series of air crashes, but I submit, from the point of view of the passenger, that we must adopt

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a balanced judgment in these matters. It must be remembered that there are occasional runs of bad luck, just as there are runs of good luck. Whenever there is an air crash the Press treat it as being of good news value; it it written up in all its lurid and grim details, and we are told every little thing about it; but we must not forget the great number of aeroplanes which now fly, compared with those which flew in earlier days, and we must bear in mind the enormous number of miles which are flown in perfect safety. While accidents are to be deplored, and while, from the point of view of potential passengers, we must do everything we can to avoid them, we must not be thrown off our judgment by a series of crashes such as we had at the end of last year. We should bear in mind the number of crashes which unfortunately take place on our roads and remember that we do not use our roads any the less because of the great number of accidents on them. One does not have to get into an aeroplane in order to be killed. I think we must look at it from that point of view.
It seems to me, speaking from the point of view of the passenger, that quite a number of these very serious accidents in the air are avoidable. As I see it, there are several dangers which air traffic encounters, the first of which is the danger of colliding with high ground. There are deplorable accidents caused through aeroplanes running into high ground, and that has happened frequently. I am sure that we all can recall a number of accidents which have taken place in that way. Then again, aeroplanes run into moisture-laden clouds and suffer from icing; that is another danger. Then, there are the dangers of running into other aircraft, the dangers of taking off and, particularly, the dangers of landing in conditions of bad visibility.
As to aeroplanes running into high ground, it seems to me that in these days of modern inventions it ought to be possible to fit aircraft with some better means of detection than they have been able to use up to now. There are various systems which can be fitted—and indeed, which have been fitted—and it seems to me that if better means of detection could be used it might help to reduce what appears to be a rather unnecessary type of air crash. As to the question of moisture-laden clouds, icing and the like, better meteorological reports—a continu-
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ous series of meteorological reports—would be of help. As no doubt did your Lordships, I read the evidence given at the Stowting inquiry recently. I thought it was an extraordinary thing that an aeroplane could leave this country for Bordeaux and that it should not find out until it arrived there that the cloud base was only about 200 or 300 feet.
That is not the only instance of that sort of thing. I have here a newspaper report in which it is said—this apparently occurred towards the latter part of last year—that an aircraft left Brussels for Northolt, and that on arrival over Northolt it was sent by Northolt control to Croydon because the weather conditions at Northolt were too bad. On arriving at Croydon, and having failed to land because the S.B.A. (which, I presume, means the Beam Approach System) was not working, the aircraft flew back to Northolt. Back at Northolt, contrary to Northolt's original instructions, it started to make an S.B.A. approach to the aerodrome, but gave it up because the Northolt S.B.A. was out of action. It was then sent by Northolt to Manston, but conditions there were too bad for Manston to accept it, and so the aircraft returned to Brussels, where weather conditions were bad but where a Radio Range let-down was accomplished. It was apparently a B.O.A.C. machine, which had been fitted out in America with this type of gear, and so it managed to get down at Brussels. What one would like to ask is why Northolt did not know that Manston was impossible for aircraft? If I had been in the aircraft I should have hated to fly backwards and forwards and then to have to go back to Brussels. I should have been terrified.
On another occasion an aircraft bound for Northolt had to return to Brussels, after having been kept in the air over south-east England for more than an hour between about nine and ten o'clock on a very unpleasant night. On that occasion the S.B.A. was not in operation at Northolt, and let-downs were attempted on the Range and M.F. Beacon there. Diversions were being made to Croydon and to Manston, but when the aircraft got to Mansion the S.B.A. was not working there. It seems to me that, whether it was due to failure of instruments, or to lack of liaison between the various air stations, considerable danger was caused to the aircraft concerned. Fortunately,

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nothing much happened, but the fact still remains that an advance in radar and radio equipment, together with a tightening-up of the reporting of meteorological conditions, might do a great deal to help in cases like that.
With regard to the question of aircraft colliding in the air, when I have been a passenger in an aeroplane I have never been particularly frightened about that. I have always been full of admiration for my pilot and have never sensed that I was in any special danger from the risk of collisions. It does seem, air control being what it is, that this danger is not at any rate an exaggerated one. With regard to aircraft taking off, and so on, accidents are due to engine failure, and it is probably largely a matter of maintenance. But it is a question that should not be and, I know, is not, neglected by those concerned, least of all by the Ministry of Civil Aviation.
Then we come to the question of landing under conditions of bad visibility. As I told your Lordships, I have frequently been a passenger in aircraft, and on one occasion last year I had to go to Paris. I flew to Paris in a foreign airplane. We left Croydon under fairly good weather conditions, and we expected that the passage would take about a couple of hours or an hour and three quarters. When we crossed the French coast the cloud seemed to close in, and by the time we arrived over the Paris area there was thick cloud below. Of course, I could not tell what wireless signals the pilot was receiving, but I could see that conditions were rapidly becoming very difficult. It was five hours before we landed at Paris, and I imagine the pilot had to do something because no doubt his petrol was getting a bit short. We took a dive down below the clouds, and the next thing I saw was a hill in front of us, and up we went again. We missed the hill, and we missed all the high tension wires which one finds around Paris. We went up again, circled round a few times, and then came down and "made it." But it was not a very happy experience.
There are ways of getting aircraft down, and I want to refer to one or two of them. If the noble Lord, in the course of his reply, could tell us a little about them I think it would do a good deal to reassure many of us, especially if we know
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that some of these methods are to be used. One method that can be used is the Ground Control Approach System, which I believe was used a lot during the war by the R.A.F. and thought very highly of by them. We know from our papers that it was used at Prestwick, and we know it is now being used at Heathrow. I should like to know whether it is the policy of the Minister of Civil Aviation to encourage the use of the Ground Control Approach System and, if that is so, how it compares with such a system as F.I.D.O., or something of that sort, for getting aircraft down under conditions of bad visibility.
Another system which can help in getting aircraft down I understand is called Distance Measuring Equipment. I should like to know what are the chances of this system, and whether the Ministry of Civil Aviation think that an extension of it will help. I have heard in connexion with the installation of this system that the reason why more use has not been made of it in this country up to now is that there is a certain difference of opinion upon wavelengths. I understand that this system depends largely upon having a standardized wave-length, and that America has one view as to what the standardized wave-length should be and this country has a very different view. I do not know whether that is correct or not, but it would be of considerable interest if we could be told a little more about that.
There is another system called the Approach Control Radar. I do not know whether it is proposed to use this system, or extend its use. I understand there is a further system called the Teleran System, and of course there are several more which I have not mentioned, but I do not want unduly to weary your Lordships with all these things. I want to know which system the Ministry of Civil Aviation favour at the present time, and which of the systems it is the intention of the Ministry of Civil Aviation to develop so far as they can. I should also like to know whether the Ministry have all the scientific assistance they require for the development of these systems. One would like to be reassured that there is an expert team of scientists—"Boffins," I have heard them called—working in a back room somewhere with wet towels round their heads, thinking how they can further develop all these things.
We come next to the F. I.D.O. system. I told your Lordships earlier that I had been able to find out a few particulars with regard to this method. I understand that the F.I.D.O. system at Manston, for instance, when working under full pressure, consumes 470,000 gallons of petrol an hour—the noble Lord will, I am sure, correct me if I am wrong. I am also told that at Manston, at full pressure, it costs £15,000 an hour when in operation. If my figures are correct, your Lordships will see that to land six aircraft an hour in those conditions would cost each aircraft £2,500. F.I.D.O. also requires an enormous number of tanks to contain the petrol which has to be used, and it needs a considerable personnel to maintain it, and so on. If these figures are anywhere near correct, they are far in excess of anything I have ever imagined. My idea of the expenditure of fuel was 80,000 gallons an hour, and I saw a letter, I think from the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, published in the Daily Telegraph a long time ago, stating that it was only 40,000 gallons an hour. The Minister of Civil Aviation, no doubt, has all the figures at his command, and I hope he will tell us what it really costs to run the F.I.D.O. system. I would like to know what the relative merits of the F.I.D.O. system are as compared with some of the other methods I have mentioned. I understand that with a cross-wind the F.I.D.O. system is not very satisfactory from the point of view of the pilot of the aircraft trying to land.
I have said as much as I wanted to say, and probably too much, but, as a passenger, I would like to know a little more about these things, and to be assured that if the S.B.A. system is being used at Northolt, Croydon, Heathrow, Blackbushe and Hurn, it is kept in a reasonable state of preparedness, ready to go into action at any moment. I do not like the idea of aircraft arriving over these aerodromes under very bad conditions, quite unable to do anything about it because the system normally in use is out of action for some reason or another. I am a tremendous believer in air traffic. I want to see it expand, I want to do everything I can to support civil aviation in this country, and the use of aircraft and airliners; but one must remember that when people read a probably exaggerated list of casualties, and read those little paragraphs in the papers such as I have mentioned they feel a little uneasy, to put
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it mildly. One does hope that the Minister will probe all these matters to the bottom.
There was another case where two aircraft came in to land at Heathrow. One was told not to land, but none the less did land down-wind, and met the other coming up-wind on the runway, and they only just avoided a crash of a very serious nature. In a case like that, does the Ministry of Civil Aviation take any action? There you have the case of a pilot being given definite orders not to land, yet he disregarded the instruction and did land. He landed down-wind, which is a rather hazardous performance, and very nearly met the other aircraft; there were only a few feet between them when they came to rest. One hopes that in a case like that the Ministry of Civil Aviation takes action. We would like to have a rough idea what they do, and what happened in that particular instance. I have not given the Minister notice of this question, so I suppose he will not be able to answer it to-day, but I would like to know in due course if that sort of thing is dealt with by the Ministry. In any case I hope your Lordships will forgive me, for I did not intend to put down the Motion in the form in which it appeared on the Order Paper; but having put it down in that form I have tried to do my best to deal with it. I hope the Minister will be able to give us some information on the few points I have raised I beg to move for Papers.
4.4 P.m.
LORD CHERWELL: My Lords, I think the noble Earl who introduced this Motion has given very ample arguments in favour of examining what can be done in order to make civil flying safer and more reliable. I must say that, from his point of view, it is rather fortunate that he had to postpone his Motion, because at the time it was originally put down there had been such a series of crashes in the fog that it would probably have been difficult to persuade anybody that it would be a mistake not to continue with a well-proved system like F.I.D.O. instead of waiting and hoping for something better. For many years now I have been trying to persuade the authorities that the simplest way of dealing with bad visibility on the airfields is to clear the fog off the runway. I personally very much hope that the Minister will not allow himself to be deterred by anything that has been said

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from using the method of doing this which was used in the war. Thousands of bombers were successfully landed in bad visibility by this means, and very many hundreds were certainly saved from disaster.
I know there is a great deal of prejudice against this method on the part of many persons who do not have to fly in foggy weather. I cannot help feeling that this may be the residue of an understandable resentment on the part of certain people who said, early in the war, that such a device would not work, and who are now naturally not too pleased when they find their predictions falsified by the event. Two arguments are employed against this method. In the first place we are always told—at least we have been told for the last six years, and the noble Earl again suggested it to-day—that we are just on the point of getting infallible radio aids which make it unnecessary to clear the runways. This argument was pressed very strongly some five years ago when Mr. Churchill first asked for experiments to be made on these lines. That was five years ago, and still we have not got safe and foolproof radio aids. Although the Americans have been working hard in this matter it was only in January or February that at least one machine, trying to land in the fog by radio methods in California, crashed with great loss of life.
Even if foolproof radio methods were available there would be reasons for not relying on them entirely. In the first place, only if it is carrying the right sort of instrument can a machine land by radio in bad visibility, whereas any machine, without any such device, can land on an airfield if the runway has been cleared of fog. If we were to rely on radio aids in every machine it would involve us in considerable expense, not to mention loss of useful load, and so on. Moreover, to use radio aids requires a great deal of practice and experience. Every pilot would have to be trained in the use of radio aids, and since some of them—among them, I think, the G.C.A.—require a great deal of conversation with the ground, either all pilots would have to learn the languages of the airfields at which they were going to land or the personnel at those airfields would have to learn the languages of the pilots. These radio methods are not at all simple.
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Radio aids for navigation are, of course, invaluable and will always be used—methods corresponding to the L.O.R.A.N. and Gee as we used them during the war. But when it comes to fixing your height to within a couple of feet it is extremely difficult to use these radio methods. After all, how do you measure height from the ground? You send out a radio signal and measure the time it takes to return. The signal travels at 186,000 miles a second, so that to get the distance right within a couple of feet requires very considerable accuracy in your measurement of time. In fact, one does get them fairly accurate, and within a few hundred feet or so they are invaluable. Here one must distinguish between two different aspects of the matter. There is the aspect of getting on to the air-fields. You can fly down the beam or be talked down. Even before this you have to settle the question of bringing in aircraft in the right order and direction, and seeing that they do not collide with one another. This was one of the things which Bomber Command had to solve before it could use these methods at all. It can be done, and I hope will be done, but it does depend to a great extent on very close international co-operation and liaison, and that, I suspect, will be a considerable difficulty when you are dealing with a subject like civil aviation which operates all over the world. None of these things brings you right down to the point of landing, the actual moment when you have to pull back the stick. As to this, in the last resort I maintain that all pilots would far rather see the ground than have any radio aids or any other aid to gauge their height accurately.
Then what about the possibility of the radio aid failing, owing to a technical fault? The noble Earl himself gave innumerable instances of radio aids not working. If the radio aid does not work, not only does it render it ineffective; it makes it positively dangerous. For this reason alone all the pilots I have ever met would rather clear the runway and land in the ordinary manner than rely upon some elaborate new method. The second argument always brought forward when this matter is discussed is the question of expense. It must be remembered that F.I.D.O. was developed in war-time, when cost did not matter and when regularity and safety were the first considerations, but these things have been very

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much improved since then. I believe there is a special station in California at a place called Arcata—a landing aids experimental station. There, American engineers have developed methods which have cut down the cost of landing by this method to one-sixth. By using high pressure diesel oil they have brought it down to a cost, not of £2,5oo for each aircraft—as I think the noble Earl said—bud to £20 for each aircraft. I think chat the figure for F.I.D.O. he gave, £2,5oo for each aircraft, is quite out of relation to the realities. The Americans have got it down to £4 a minute for running this and it used always to be considered in the Royal Air Force to be possible to bring down a machine in five minutes. The installation is expensive, but not so very expensive when one considers the sort of sums that are spent on airfields. The figure of £37,000 has been given as the cost of installing F.I.D.O. at one major airport.
EARL HOWE: Does that include merely the piping system or does it take in the tankage as well?
LORD CHERWELL: I should not think it refers to the piping system only. The figure was given as the total cost. But tankage will not be a terribly serious matter if the quantities of oil can be reduced, as is claimed.
In my view, if civil flying is to be a success the first essential is safety and the second is regularity of service. There is only one thing more unpleasant than to be kept hanging about on the ground, sometime, for days, for the fog to clear, and that is flying round and round in the air searching for an airfield on which it may be possible to land. And, quite apart from the unpleasantness of such happenings, what about the cost to the passengers (usually in a hurry and with a number of important appointments to keep) of being kept waiting—sometimes for days—beyond their proper time, and perhaps having to be diverted suddenly to some distant airfield, hundreds of miles from the one at which they wanted to land, because of fog, and having to be brought back by train or some other method to their proper destination?
My dilemma is this, and I would like to put it to the noble Earl. If he takes the view that aircraft are frequently troubled by fog then, surely, the need for some device which overcomes this
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handicap is paramount. If, on the other hand, he holds that it happens comparatively rarely—as indeed is true—then the cost of turning on F.I.D.O. on those rare occasions when it is essential would be negligible. I reckon that an extra sixpence or, at most, one shilling in the £ on the fares would cover the expense, even in a country which is so subject to fog as Great Britain. After all, nobody complains of the cost of installing lighthouses, lightships or fog signalling to safeguard ordinary traffic, although it would work out at a very high price if the whole cost were reckoned against the few journeys on which the signal was essential to save life. The cost of the Trinity House service all round the coasts of Great Britain, if it were set against the few occasions when it is absolutely essential, would seem to show that it is extremely expensive. It seems to me wrong to object to an extra 2 per cent. or even 5 per cent. on aircraft fares to ensure that the service will be safe and regular. Fares must conform to safety standards—not vice versa.
Now that industry is being exhorted to turn over from coal to oil, nobody can pretend that it is impossible to secure the necessary fuel for F.I.D.O. I do not think, therefore, that we need be anxious lest the use of this method of saving life might materially prolong the period of petrol rationing. I hope that nothing which I have said will be construed as opposition to the fitting of the best radio devices for ordinary air navigation and bringing aircraft in to land. All I resist is the failure to use such a well-tried device as F.I.D.O. now, in the hope of finding an effective radio substitute some day. If we go on losing men and machines at the present rate, and holding up planes, sometimes for days at a time, it will be the ruin of civil aviation. In my youth, when I was taught German, I was made to read a play called Nathan the Wise. I shall listen to the Minister of Civil Aviation with some interest to see whether this title is entirely irrelevant to-day.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I feel that we should thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for raising this question to-day. It is, in my view, a very fit and proper question to put to the Minister. Although, in the main, it is technical in

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nature, I think there are a number of quite definite principles involved which can be put squarely to the noble Lord, the Minister of Civil Aviation, in order to get his views on them and to ascertain if they are, in fact, under consideration at the present time. I am afraid that I do not share the view of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, about "Boffins." I think that "Boffins" should exist. But civil aviation should depend on equipment on which "Boffins "have completed their work. Until that point is reached commercial civil aviation should have nothing to do with it. Until then it is a matter for a specialist. But there are certain very general proposals I should like to put, with which I think the noble Lord, the Minister, will agree, and I would then like to examine how far they are being applied, and to see what is being done with regard to them.
First, with regard to radio aids: these should be universal in application. They should be ready and available for use to the maximum extent; and they should be operated to the optimum standard of efficiency. I am afraid that I must put forward some examples in which it appears to me that these principles are not being pursued with the burning enthusiasm which I submit they deserve. I know that it is very easy to quote examples but I suggest that it is necessary, for in what other way can one point an argument to show that apparently the matter about which one is talking has not reached the stage which it might have done? Consider the matter of universality. I believe it is correct that in normal employment, civil aircraft for commercial purposes, operating in Europe, have to carry something like twelve radio sets. That is an enormous number—far too many I should say. Apart from other considerations, it involves great weight and many complexities. By standardization and other means it should be possible to bring about reductions in both these respects. I would like to ask the Minister what is being done with the enormous quantity of surplus war equipment, which might be used in this connexion? Is it being made available to provide a common stock for use over the airfields of Europe?
Another question which I would like to put to the noble Lord is this. Has he succeeded in obtaining any practical measure
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of agreement in these matters at the conference which is being held in Montreal at the present time, under the name of P.I.C.A.O.? Speaking as a humble member of the public, I must say that it does not seem to me that P.I.C.A.O. speaks with that still small voice of clarity that all can hear, and which I, for one, would very much like to hear. I must say that I have found it very difficult to find out what exactly has been in the minds of those who are taking part in that conference.
Now, a word as to availability. In this connexion, I would like to refer to the S.B.A. equipment which is now being installed. This system is certainly seven years old, and I imagine that it was in operation before the war in substantially the same form as at the present date. But yet we find that so far as civil aerodromes in this country are concerned (I think that I am correct in saying this) only five are equipped with S.B.A. Why should they all not have been so equipped? There must have been hundreds of sets available during the war, and in use, for almost every aerodrome, operational and training, was equipped during the war with one of these sets. I will give a concrete example in the case of Edinburgh. In the early part of 1946 the Under-Secretary of State promised that that aerodrome should have a high level of priority in this matter. It was promised that the installation should be completed in May, then in October, then in February and then in April. I understand that the aerodrome is still not equipped—I am very glad to note that the Minister indicates that is not correct and I am very pleased to hear it. I understood that that aerodrome still had not got that equipment. But to return to what I was saying: I do suggest there can be a much bigger urge forward in the installation of equipment which is already available.
Now I come to yet another matter—that of G.C.A. equipment. This was moved from Scotland to England, and recently it was stated in another place that it was moved for weather reasons. It seems odd to move a thing on account of weather conditions in January. The weather in January can normally be anticipated within certain narrow margins and, in actual fact, the flying weather in January was exceptionally

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good. In the course of moving this installation, or rather in moving the men who operated it, two things were discovered. First, that the equipment left behind was not in working order. It had been neglected, and it took some time to put in working order. Secondly, it transpired that the Minister who wished to use this G.C.A. equipment had no personnel to operate it, and for that reason was bound to employ Royal Air Force personnel to do that work on his behalf. I would ask the Minister whether he has got a crew to-day who can operate a G.C.A. set, and if not, how many crews has he under training, and how many G.C.A. sets will he be in a position to operate, if at all, in October?
And now what is the standard of operation of equipment that is available? I do not want to say very much about this country—I think on the whole it is fairly good—Out I will quote one rather serious lapse that occurred in the course of the electricity cuts which took place during the last two months. It has been brought to my notice that two pilots were coming in on the S.B.A. beam when the beam faded on account of an electricity cut which was imposed locally. I think in both cases the aerodromes had auxiliary plant, but in one case it took thirty minutes to get the auxiliary plant going. I have brought this up for this reason; safety in flying means thinking at least half an hour ahead of every possible event, and if you do not think ahead automatically then, inevitably, sooner or later you will find yourself in difficulties.
I would like to refer shortly to what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said about the difficulties overseas. It is obvious that there are considerable diplomatic and other delicate points that cannot be dealt with easily, but it is none the less true that in international aviation there is an obvious community of interests between the nations for the provision and maintenance of good service. I would therefore like to ask the noble Lord what arrangements, if any, exist at the present time for ensuring that suitable channels are available for making representations to countries overseas with regard to hitches or difficulties which may be experienced in the ordinary methods of communication by air.
I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, has said. At the present time there is no sign that we have reached radio blind landings. We cannot
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alter the weather in this country, and it affects all forms of communication. Certainly it affects flying, and I would like the noble Lord to say that he recognizes that it affects flying, and that no effort is being made at the present time to fly in spite of the weather. Most young pilots reach the stage when they inevitably try to fly in spite of the weather, but they very, soon learn, as all pilots who live learn, that they cannot fly in spite of the weather. I am going to quote one instance which fills me with a certain measure of apprehension. I have seen an instruction from one of the Corporations that they regard the limitations of flying visibility as being 50 yards for take-off, and zoo yards for landing. I suggest that that limitation is much too fine, and might be multiplied fourfold, or even tenfold, with very great advantage. I would ask, if I may, what progress is being made towards the universal application of radio aids? How far has the noble Lord been able to go in making available those aids which already exist, and what steps is he taking to ensure the adequate standard of operation in these aids themselves? What we want is jam to-day, and not jam tomorrow. Too long have radio aids round the corner been held out as carrots to the pilot, while comparatively little has been given to him in the sphere of civil aviation to-day.
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD NATHAN): My Lords, I am greatly indebted to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for the courtesy he has shown me in the first instance by adjourning the question which he had on the Order Paper some weeks ago, and I must express my sympathy with him for the fact that on two occasions his Motion has been postponed—on the second occasion, by his courtesy to allow the debate on India to take place. I have been greatly interested, and much instructed, by what has been said by the noble Earl and other noble Lords this afternoon. Let me say at once that I have no pretensions at all to being a technical man. I approach these problems, like the noble Earl who moved this Motion, from the point of view of a passenger of long standing, and also as one who has to apply his lay mind to these problems in the situation of the Minister responsible. I bring no technical knowledge to bear on them, but I hope to bring

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a modicum of business understanding, common sense, and application. Anything I say to your Lordships must be deemed to be an intrusion by me into realms in which I have but little technical knowledge or understanding.
Let me say at once that, from the outset of my appointment as Minister of Civil Aviation, I have made safety the key note of my administration. I agree with what has been said, and I underline it; safety must be our supreme consideration if we are to create and maintain the confidence of the public in civil aviation. Apart from the skill of the manufacturers of the aircraft and of the air crews, there is no greater contribution that can be made to safety than adequate provision on the ground. I would adopt for myself, in regard to the provision for safety, the old Cromwellian maxim: "Neglect no means". That is, indeed, the motto of my Ministry in this respect.
The responsibility for the ground work rests upon my Ministry. It is an immediate, operational and executive responsibility, in contradistinction to the actual flying of the aircraft, which does not fall within the province of my Ministry. I am determined that British civil aircraft and foreign aircraft that come to this island shall have the best ground provision made for them that foresight, hard work, prudence, and, so far as is necessary, expenditure can provide. This ground organization is a very large and complex matter. It does not consist merely of aerodromes themselves, but includes all kinds of things like meteorological forecasts, reporting services, a complicated air traffic control system, an extensive system of land-lines and point-to-point radio for rapid communication between aerodromes or traffic control stations, meteorological offices, radio communication between aircraft in flight and stations on the ground, and also the adequate systems of radio navigational aid which have been the main burden of the speeches made this afternoon.
There are different kinds of aid. There is the Runway Approach Aid, there are the Aids to Short Distance Navigation and Long Distance Navigation, and there are the Aids for Air Traffic Control. But, when considering the development of all these various aids, and others, we must always remember that there is, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, pointed
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out, an economic limit to the size and weight of equipment that can be installed in any one aircraft. This makes it infinitely desirable to avoid any unnecessary variations in the types of ground aid providing the same service, and it underlines the desirability (which I know the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, is aiming at) of achieving international standardization of these aids in the interests of practical economy on the ground and in the air.
This standardization is one of the most important objectives of P.I.C.A.O.—the Provisional International Civil Aviation Organization—and if the still small voice to which the noble Earl referred has not yet spoken with great precision and clarity I hope that the time is not far distant when it may do so, and will then illumine discussion and action. This country is certainly playing a full part in the deliberations that are taking place in Montreal currently with regard to this very important matter. P.I.C.A.O. has made a recommendation for standardization. It has recommended the adoption of a system known as the Instrument Landing System—sometimes known as I.L.S. But that, of course, can only become effective internationally. It is the international aspect that one must bear in mind. It is not merely an insular matter, because we fly overseas and foreign aircraft fly into these islands. We must have standardization and universal application. This I.L.S. will be installed when sufficient equipment is available. I.L.S. gives a pilot guidance, both as to the direction of approach to a runway and for the path along which he should descend for landing.
Military versions of this I.L.S. equipment are installed at two civil aerodromes in the United Kingdom. They are known as S.C.S.5I, and they serve aircraft on international services. Other additional equipment has been ordered but it is not likely to be available for standardization for some time to come. Meanwhile, we in the United Kingdom are proceeding, as an interim measure, to equip more aerodromes with the Standard Beam Approach —the S.B.A. to which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred—and with the B.A.B.S. system—B.A.B.S. being Beam Approach Beacon System. S.B.A. gives a pilot directional guidance for landing and also indications of his position when passing over marked beacons before reaching the runway, while B.A.B.S. is a radar system giving the pilot directional

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guidance and a continuous indication of his distance from the beacon. At present there are eleven civil aerodromes equipped with S.B.A.—soon to be increased to forty—and there are five installations of B.A.B.S., with two more being brought into operation.
The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, referred to G.C.A.—Ground Controlled Approach —as did the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I am not going to enter into the controversy which arose some time ago as to the movement of G.C.A. to London from Prestwick, and I do not think that the noble Earl raised the question with the idea that on this occasion I should do that. But, as a matter of fact, when the installation was at Prestwick, I did have an opportunity—the first I had—of seeing how it worked. I must say that I thought it was a miracle, the way that aircraft could be "talked down" on to the runway. On the particular instance when I was there the pilot was "picked up" by radio telephone; he did not know anything of G.C.A.; he had never heard of it before; he was told to act in accordance with the instructions given to him by telephone and he was "talked down," from a good many miles away, on to the runway at Prestwick. When I went to speak to him afterwards he said he had never heard anything like it, and had never thought it conceivable that there should be a means of bringing an aircraft down on to the runway by mere speech to the pilot, provided that the pilot implicitly obeyed the directions given to him. It was to me a most illuminating experience.
G.C.A. has been installed at London Airport, and the Royal Air Force, which hitherto alone has been operating G.C.A., has provided a crew for the training of civil crews. There is one crew training now, and other crews are to complete training by October. Subject to recruitment, and the final negotiations for training facilities from the Royal Air Force, the training of the second and third crews will be completed this year—always provided that we are able to recruit the necessary numbers. I will come to the question of recruitment in a moment. Apart from the G.C.A. equipment, to which I have referred, there is a network of such equipment operated by the Royal Air Force in various installations throughout the country so as to give the maximum geographical cover. The more important of these installations are already avail
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able for use by civil aircraft in emergency, and arrangements are in hand to make all G.C.A. installations available to any aircraft in distress. The problem of helping the pilot to touch down on the runway, following an approach in bad visibility, is being actively pursued by the development of runway and approach lighting systems — intensive lighting systems—which will enable the pilot to establish visual contact with the ground at the earliest possible moment during his approach. Real progress is being made in this direction.
In this connexion, let me say how much I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, said in his speech, that the pilot does require to see the ground. I was told, for instance, with regard to G.C.A., that if there were no human pilot—merely an automatic pilot—you could safely bring your aircraft down on to the runway. But there is a psychological aspect involved, which inhibits a human pilot from surrendering himself entirely to the use of the aid. He must see the ground. There are a variety of Short Distance Navigational Aids. Throughout the kingdom there is a medium frequency direction-finding service provided by an organization of seventeen ground stations, grouped in chains of three or more, and several of them providing a service on two radio channels. I do not think your Lordships would desire me to explain how they work, because it would obviously occupy the attention of your Lordships too long, but I may add that short-range direction-finding stations, used for local homing and air traffic control purposes, arc also installed at twenty-four United Kingdom aerodromes, and will eventually be installed at over fifty.
Apart from these ground direction-finding stations, there are eight medium frequency radio beacons on which aircraft equipped with direction-finding loops can take their own bearings, and an additional twenty-nine beacons are to be installed. There are also ground radar beacons, known as Eureka, on which suitably-equipped aircraft can "home" and obtain an indication of distance from the particular beacon worked. Eureka beacons are installed at six United Kingdom aerodromes, and will be installed at four more. Then there are three radio ranges, each providing an aircraft with guidance along any of four tracks, being maintained at Prestwick, Northolt and Bovingdon, and

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others are contemplated at Valley Aerodrome, at Dorking, and possibly at St. Mawgan. Finally, in this connexion we are retaining in operation three chains of Gee stations—to which I think the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, referred—covering most of England and Wales; and the United Kingdom cover is being extended by the installation of a new chain in Scotland. We are also offering assistance in the extension of Gee cover in Europe. This Gee system is a radar navigational system developed during the war, and used on a large scale by the British and American Air Forces, by which aircraft suitably equipped can ascertain their position rapidly and accurately anywhere within the coverage provided by the ground stations.
Then there are long distance navigational aids. There are high-powered ground radio beacons used with airborne direction finding equipment, long range direction finding stations, and two systems known as Standard L.O.R.A.N. and Consol, to which the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, referred. Standard L.O.R.A.N. is a radar aid by which suitably equipped aircraft can ascertain their position at considerable distances over the sea, though its daylight range is poor over land. The Consol beacons are radio beacons providing similar information but at greater distances over land, and requiring only ordinary communication receivers in the aircraft. The United Kingdom is increasing the number of high-powered ground radio beacons on the Commonwealth trunk routes, and is operating one of the L.O.R.A.N. stations in the organization for the North Atlantic. A Consol beacon is in operation in Northern Ireland, and we may provide them elsewhere in British territory for the Atlantic routes. The United Kingdom is also operating and re-equipping three of the long-range cathode-ray direction-finding stations providing a service over the North Atlantic, the North Sea and Northern Europe.
Special equipment is required for this vitally important matter of air traffic control, in connexion with which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to a near collision at Heathrow, where the aircraft almost collided on the runway. I have not been able to trace the actual facts, but I believe that a foreign aircraft came within the circuit uninvited, and alighted
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without recourse to the Air Traffic Control. It came there as a gentle stranger, nobody knowing it was there, because it had taken no notice of, or evaded, or not been in communication with the Air Traffic Control.
EARL HOWE: Had you any radar at Heathrow to spot it?
LORD NATHAN: I can only tell you the position as I understand it: that the aircraft arrived within the circuit unknown. The radar equipment, as I understand it—I speak purely as a layman—scans a certain area, and if it should not be scanning the particular area from which the aircraft came in it might escape notice. Broadly speaking, I understand that that is the explanation in that particular case. We have search radar equipment known as Approach Control Radar Mark III X installed at the London Airport. This is designed to give the position of aircraft at distances up to twenty-five miles from the airport, the distance being dependent on the size and the altitude of the aircraft.
I must refer to what I know the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, has in mind, and that is the problem of implementation. What we desire to do is to provide aircraft with the most comprehensive facilities for safe and regular operation. But the implementation of the proposals is liable to delay for a variety of reasons, some of which are quite outside the control of my Ministry and, indeed, outside the control of the United Kingdom. For example, quite apart from the question of the development and production of the necessary equipment, there is the all-important factor, to which reference has already been made, of the availability of radio frequencies on which the various aids will be operated. There is shortly to be a Convention of the International Telecommunications Union, and it is hoped that a satisfactory allocation of frequencies will be made at that Conference.
But it must not be forgotten that now, in contradistinction to war time, there are many other interests besides civil aviation that require radio frequencies, and we cannot yet be certain that civil aviation will in fact be granted all the frequencies it requires. There is another difficulty, which applies to the S.B.A., to which the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, referred in connexion with some delay at Prestwick (it

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certainly happened at Renfrew) in securing sites for the installation of the equipment, because this has often to be installed away from the aerodromes but in particular relation to the runways on the aerodromes. It is difficult sometimes to find suitable sites and, when you have found them, to obtain them either on lease or by purchase. Moreover, in some cases the production of equipment must be dependent on further developments and modifications to existing types. Production itself depends in this matter, as in others, on the availability of material staff and manufacturing sources.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The point I made was that S.B.A. equipment was in universal use in war-time. There was no question of producing new equipment. It has been in use, on and off, for seven years.
LORD NATHAN: All the S.B.A. equipment for which we can obtain suitable sites and for which we can obtain the manpower for operation, and so on, certainly is being and will be used. My anxiety to use this equipment to the utmost is no less than that of the noble Earl. There is a great deal of development work to be done, and for that I rely upon the Minister of Supply, upon whose shoulders, indeed, I have placed a very heavy burden, amounting at present to some seventy or eighty projects in the radio development field in which I have a whole or part interest, ranging from major items, such as complete navigational and air traffic control system, to small items of an ancillary nature. It is sometimes asked why civil aviation does not use exactly the same devices as were employed by the R.A.F. for military purposes. In fact, certain new techniques and systems originally developed to meet military requirements are already in use for civil aviation, but a great deal of scientific and engineering effort is essential to adapt them to their new role. Certain systems—I think this is sometimes forgotten—which admirably filled the military operation requirements are costly, according to civil aviation standards (I am not speaking now of money), in weight of airborne equipment and in operating staff who fill the aircraft and on the associated ground stations. Furthermore, our action must be taken within the framework of standardization agreements arrived at internationally.
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I would add that, together with other difficulties, there is the difficulty of securing adequate numbers of the right staff. For training purposes my Ministry maintain a training school at Croydon which provides aeronautical conversion courses for qualified radio operators, and which is to be extended to deal with conversion courses covering wider radar systems. New staffs are recruited by means of public advertisements and through the Ministry of Labour. But let me say that the results have been disappointing, particularly in certain grades, such as teleprinter operators. I frankly admit—I regret it—that the recruitment of additional staff is by no means the least of the considerable difficulties which confront us in our efforts to increase and improve our ground services to meet the expanding needs of civil aviation. I shall welcome the assistance of members of your Lordships' House and others who may be able to attract recruits into this field of work.
EARL HOWE: Could the noble Lord say whether women are employed?
LORD NATHAN: There is no reason at all why women should not be employed. I have not given details of the various equipments at each of the airfields, but let me say at once that London Airport is, as I think I have mentioned previously, the most lavishly and the most comprehensively equipped of any airport in any part of the world. It has a larger range of aids of one kind or another. For the help, as I hope, of noble Lords, I have prepared (and I am very ready to hand it to any noble Lord who is interested) a schedule showing the aids at every United Kingdom airport, together with a glossary of the terms used for the benefit of those who are as little acquainted with some of the technical phrases and terms as I am myself. I will readily make that available to noble Lords, for whose assistance it has been prepared.
LORD LLEWELLIN: May I ask the Minister whether those are all manned or whether staff is still lacking to man them? Before he sits down, would he tell us what the shortage of staff is? Is it hundreds?
LORD NATHAN: The shortage to which I was referring was, in particular, the shortage of new entrants for training. The

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systems which are set out in the list to which I have referred as being already installed are, of course, systems which are in operation. I want now recruits for the future, both in the limited fields and in the more extended fields, in order that we may expand the facilities we are offering. We are of course entering a period when old systems have to be maintained and when agreement on new systems has yet to be reached. The noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, has emphasized—rather in contradistinction to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and I agree with him—that this blind landing in zero-zero conditions is always round the corner. I like to have something this side of the corner and I have therefore embarked, in association with the Minister of Supply, upon a research into the situation of F.I.D.O. at the present time. There has been despatched to the United States an inter-departmental Mission for the special purpose of exploring the position there. The leader of the Mission is Mr. E. G. Walker, whom Lord Cherwell will no doubt remember as having taken a leading part in the provision of F.I.D.O. during the war. Mr. Walker will have the assistance of Mr. A. C. Hartley, who also took an active part in that work during the war. I think it may be assumed that we are taking the appropriate steps to inform ourselves as to the situation in the United States, although possibly some of the statements which have been made and which have gained currency here with regard to what has been happening in that country may be a little on the optimistic side as matters stand at present.
I must answer some specific questions which have been put to me by noble Lords regarding F.I.D.0. F.I.D.O. is available at two aerodromes in this country. They both belong to the R.A.F. but they are, of course, available for use by British civil aircraft in emergency. One of them is at Manston, and the other, which is at Graveley in Huntingdonshire, acts as a stand-by for Manston, having replaced Woodbridge for the purpose at the beginning of this year. During the year 1946 the installations at Manston and Woodbridge were used for training and practice purposes, and there were no occasions when aircraft had to use them because diversion elsewhere was not practicable. The fuel used in these installations is 70-octane petrol. The fuel consumption depends on the length of the runways to
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be cleared and the heat output required to disperse the fog at the time. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, gave certain figures which surprised me. I think he mentioned 470,000 gallons per hour.
EARL HOWE: At full pressure.
LORD NATHAN: And £15,000. My information is this. The runway at Manston is 3,000 yards long, and, in round figures, the consumption of fuel varies from 105,000 down to 32,000 gallons per hour, depending on the actual heat output required. The corresponding consumption for Graveley, where the runway is 2,000 yards long, varies from 74,000 down to 10,000 gallons per hour. As to cost, the capital cost of the installation at Manston was £150,000 and that at Graveley £60,000. As to the cost of operation, based on the figures of fuel consumption I have given the cost of operation per hour would vary from £3,650 to £1,050 at Manston and from £2,600 to £350 an hour at Graveley. The R.A.F. do not at present, I understand, propose to extend F.I.D.O. installations beyond the aerodromes which I have mentioned. The present policy in general with regard to landing in fog is to divert aircraft to aerodromes which are not fog-bound. On the civil side, the installation at Blackbushe is being reconditioned and I expect to have it available for trial purposes next month, although the strength of the present runways would make it impracticable to land neavy aircraft there except in emergency.
I have stated in your Lordships' House before—and I repeat it—that I have, I cannot say more than an open mind, but a perfectly friendly mind towards F.I.D.O. Perhaps I need say no more than that I find myself, speaking for myself, in agreement with the arguments adduced by the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, in that respect. I should, however, make it quite clear—and I know the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, will not dissent—that F.I.D.O. cannot be considered in isolation but must be considered in relation to radio navigational aids for runway approach and also aerodrome lighting. I would emphasize what I believe to be the cardinal feature—namely, that quite apart from the scientific possibilities of blind approach landing in zero-zero conditions, there is no doubt the knowledge that a F.I.D.O. installation is available at

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an aerodrome has an encouraging psychological effect on pilots flying in bad weather and also, I would add, on passengers flying in bad weather. Our task is to provide, and co-ordinate, the aids which enable a pilot to locate the runway, to approach it, and finally to land on it in really bad weather. We shall proceed with our investigations, and as soon as the Mission have returned and reported I shall be in a better position to make a more definite statement than I am on this particular occasion, as your Lordships will understand.
EARL HOWE: Before the noble Lord finishes, could he say whether any system of radar detection is anticipated which can be fitted in the aircraft itself?
LORD NATHAN: The noble Lord rather anticipated me. I did feel that it was due to the noble Lord that I should perhaps answer briefly one or two specific questions put to me.
LORD CHERWELL: Before the noble Lord finishes with regard to F.I.D.O., can he say how the rate per gallon is arrived at in working out these figures? Of course, he does not count the tax on the petrol or anything like that.
LORD NATHAN: I cannot give the breakdown of the figure to the noble Lord, but I would willingly let him know how the figure is calculated.
LORD CHERWELL: The noble Lord will agree that if you could use diesel oil there would be a considerable improvement in the cost.
LORD NATHAN: I have that very much in mind, and that may be a solution to our problems. That is obviously a matter into which the Mission will inquire.
LORD GIFFORD: Before the noble Lord passes from F.I.D.O., knowing his very strong views about safety, I should like to ask for an assurance from him—we have heard a lot of talk about the expense of F.I.D.O.—that where a question of an emergency landing is concerned no question of expense will enter into the matter at all.
LORD NATHAN: I have always said that economic considerations in regard to civil aviation are secondary to safety, which at all times, and in all circumstances, must predominate. The noble
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Earl, Lord Howe, asked me about steps being taken for detection devices in aircraft, and 1 made it my business to furnish myself with some information on the subject. The Ministry of Supply have placed a development contract for about six airborne radar sets to give warning to aircraft of potentially-dangerous ground and dangerous turbulent cloud. This is all very interesting and rather important, because we are in a new sphere and it is a very complicated problem. It is hoped to develop from these sets a device which will give warning of potential collisions with other aircraft. We are working on collision-warning devices, whether for dangerous cloud, 'high ground or other aircraft, as the result of operational requirements first indicated by Transport Command. Observers from my Ministry and one of the Corporations have participated in Transport Command trials in cloud-warning equipment. Towards the end of the year, other equipment will be available for trial in a Corporation aircraft in respect of ground warning, so the matter is in hand and I hope the developments will be satisfactory.
The noble Earl asked about D.M.E. This was discussed at P.I.C.A.O. in November of last year, following demonstrations, both in this country and in the United States, of various D.M.E. equipments. Currently, British civil aviation can use the R.A.F. Rebecca carried on aircraft, and Eureka, the small beacon from the ground which can give distances measuring up to 100 nautical miles. The distances have to be read off the face of a cathode-ray tube and we do not find that so convenient as the pointer and dial presentation at which my Ministry and international specifications aim.
With regard to the Teleran system—which I must confess, in spite of the fact that I am gathering together a gradual knowledge about these things, was new to me—that is a combination of television and radar. The Teleran system was examined by the United Kingdom representatives in the United States and Canada during October and November of last year. The present position is that although the scheme has been extensively worked out, I hope that in July my Ministry may be invited to send experienced observers to preliminary practical demonstrations of the system. I cannot say anything about it until we know whether the theory will develop into practice. There is no

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P.I.C.A.O. recommendation to introduce this very embryo, though enterprising, scheme as a standard of air traffic control in congested areas.
LORD LLEWELLIN: Can the Minister tell us how it works?
LORD NATHAN: For the sake of greater accuracy I have provided myself with a booklet upon the subject, which I will gladly hand to the noble Lord. It is a combination of television and radar. The noble Earl also asked me as to the adequacy of scientific aid to develop all the various systems. This is a matter very dear to my heart. I believe in the "Boffins," and I think it is very important that we should have the best scientific assistance working all the time.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I never said we should abolish the "Boffins." I do not want to fly with the things they are playing tricks with, that is all.
LORD NATHAN: Side by side with the use of the systems and instruments which we have, and which have proved themselves, with the use of all scientific knowledge we must all the time be developing new methods; and that is the system I am pursuing. My Ministry are in close touch with the R.A.F. Establishment at Farnborough, and also the establishment at Malvern. I am proposing, in regard to radio, for instance, to set up a specially scientific highly-qualified committee, and I am glad to say that not only have I Sir Robert Watson Watt as a consultant, but I also have an offer—which I have accepted—of the assistance of the radio industry to enable us to establish longterm plans for the development of radio in connexion with aircraft. In addition, I am proposing to arm myself with a chief scientific adviser of the highest professional eminence, whose name I will not give until the appointment is confirmed. I hope to have him by my side to guide my uninstructed mind in all these ramifications in worlds which are new to me.
I hope that I have dealt faithfully with at least some part of the questions which have been put to me, and I hope that I may have been able to give some information to noble Lords in the same way as I have received information and instruction from them.
5.8 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I am sure the whole House would wish me to thank the
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noble Lord for the extraordinary care and courtesy with which he has endeavoured to reply to every point that has been raised by every one during this debate. To me it has been of enormous interest, and I feel very much reassured. I shall be still more reassured when he is able to tell me that Blackbushe, Manston and the other place—I forget its name for the moment—are all run on diesel and not on 70-octane petrol. To burn that petrol in this way is a great shame. With regard to the glossary which the noble Lord mentioned, I hope I shall be one of the favoured few—or the many as the case may be—who will be able to get it. It will be of great interest to me. With regard to recruiting for the various devices to which the noble Lord has referred, I cannot help feeling that it has not been sufficiently publicized. I cannot help feeling that if more publicity were given to the need for getting recruits for working all these various devices, they would be forthcoming in greater numbers than hitherto. Finally, I can only thank the noble Lord again, and beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move that Lord Lindsay of Birker be added to the Select Committee.
Moved, That Lord Lindsay of Birker be added to the Select Committee.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
5.10 p.m.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, before the House adjourns, I should like to take this opportunity of reminding your Lordships that we shall meet to-morrow at 3.45 p.m., instead of the usual hour of 2.30, the reason for the change being that beyond an introduction and the three starred questions there is no business on the Order Paper before the Royal Commission at 4.15 p.m. After to-morrow, there will be a purely formal meeting of the House at 11 o'clock on Thursday morning, April 3, for the purpose of receiving two Bills which are expected from another place and giving them a First Reading.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from: That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the following Bill ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bill:
Wear Navigation and Sunderland Dock.
Read, and agreed to.

WEAR NAVIGATION AND SUNDERLAND DOCK BILL. [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day) and read 1a.
MOLD GAS ORDER.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order, and that there is nothing in this Order to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Second Report from the Select Committee made, to be printed, and to be considered to-morrow.
  MANPOWER AND POSTAL SERVICES.
  MANPOWER AND POSTAL SERVICES.