Sitting of 23 October 1946

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  ITALY (DISPLACED PERSONS)
  Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet able to make a statement regarding the inquiry called for from the British military authorities in Naples, concerning the forcible repatriation of Croatian displaced persons to Yugoslavia.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin): No Yugoslav displaced persons were forcibly repatriated by the British military authorities on or about the date in question. In order to allay rumours, Allied Force Headquarters in Italy have issued a statement, for publication in the Press and in all displaced persons camps in Italy, to the effect that any suggestion that innocent political dissidents are liable to be forcibly repatriated to their countries of origin by the British or United States authorities is unfounded.
  Mr. Stokes: While thanking my right hon. Friend for the most encouraging statement which he has made, may I ask him whether his answer also means that the contents of the letter addressed by the solicitors to the Croatian Refugee Committee to the Refugee Committee of his office, on 4th October, are, therefore, incorrect?
  Mr. Bevin: I should like to have notice of that question, as I would like to look at the letter again.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: In saying that no innocent people will be repatriated
  1634
  which, I presume, implies that guilty people will, can the right hon. Gentleman say how the guilt of people will be established?
  Mr. Bevin: The question of those who have been collaborationists and who have assisted the enemy comes into a different category from those who were innocently driven at the head of an army.
  Mr. Nicholson: But when there is an allegation made that someone has assisted the enemy, is that taken at its face value, or is a preliminary inquiry conducted?
  Mr. Bevin: No politician ever accepts anything at its face value.

  GERMAN-SOVIET SECRET PROTOCOL
  Lieut.-Colonel Dowerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will publish the terms of the secret German-Soviet Treaty in connection with the German-Soviet non-aggression pact of 1939, which has been discovered in the archives of the German Foreign Office.
  Mr. Thurtleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in order that the British public may have an opportunity of reading it, he will arrange for the publication, in a convenient form, of the recently discovered text of the supplementary secret agreement concluded between Nazi Germany and the U.S.S.R. just prior to the Nazi attack on Poland, which led to the world war.
  Mr. Bevin: The text of the secret protocol attached to the non-aggression pact of 23rd August, 1939, has been published in the British Press. No advantage is seen in making any official publication of the text.
  Mr. Thurtle: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that in view of the importance of this as a factor in precipitating the world war, it would be as well to have an official record of it?
  Mr. Bevin: I think it was published in a reputable newspaper, the "Manchester Guardian," and may be taken as accurate.
  Mr. Warbey: Can the Minister say how the Press got hold of a copy of a document under official-control?
  Mr. Bevin: I have not the slightest notion. I have been trying to find out that process for a long time.
  Mr. Stokes: On a point of Order. Would I be in Order, Mr. Speaker, in calling attention to the fact that the Opposition Front Bench are completely absent?

  BRITISH INFORMATION SERVICES, U.S.A.
  Mr. Edelmanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he is taking to enlarge the British Information Services in the U.S.A.
  Mr. Bevin: It is not at present intended to increase the expenditure or staff of British Information Services. The whole organisation is now being examined by the Ambassador and the newly appointed head of the Services, with a view to maintaining it at maximum efficiency.
  Mr. Driberg: Could my right hon. Friend say by how much, roughly, they have been cut down since the end of the war?
  Mr. Bevin: I should want notice of that.

  SHANGHAI MUNICIPAL COUNCIL (EMPLOYEES)
  Mr. Hobsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps the Government are taking to absorb in the services of the various departments the employees of the ex-Shanghai Municipal Council who are of British nationality.
  Mr. Bevin: In view of the circumstances in which these men lost their employment, I have interested myself on their behalf in consultation with my colleagues. The total number of men involved in this country is approximately 250, of whom 160 are police. Approximately 100 of these 160 ex-policemen have already been found or offered employment under other Government Departments. Of the 90 who are not ex-policemen, the Foreign Office ascertained last May that 54 were still seeking employment. Their names were brought to the notice of those Departments of His Majesty's Government likely to be interested, and a number have since secured employment under some of these Departments.
  Mr. Hobson: Will my right hon. Friend make representations to the Minister of Labour, because there are still many of these men registering at the Appointments Bureau, of whom the Ministry of Labour have no special knowledge?
  Mr. Bevin: I certainly will.

  TRIPARTITE NEGOTIATIONS, MOSCOW, 1939
  Mr. Pickthornasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why it is not the intention of His Majesty's Government to publish as a White Paper the British official documents of the tripartite negotiations in Moscow in 1939.
  Mr. Bevin: It was considered inappropriate to publish these documents at a time when a common enemy had to be defeated, and I think it would be better not to revive these old controversies at a time when we are actively engaged in peace making.
  Mr. Pickthorn: Does not the Foreign Secretary think that there would be less controversy if there were more facts?
  Mr. Bevin: No, I do not think so. If you keep on raking up everything that has happened in the past—one against the other—you are apt to lose the possibilities of the future.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Does my right hon. Friend think that the answer which he has just made might equally well have applied to Question No. 2?
  Mr. Bevin: No, I do not think so.
  Mr. Thurtle: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that this business of raking up the past ought not to be a one-sided technique?
  Mr. Bevin: I would like to say that we are not ashamed of our past.

  RUMANIA AND HUNGARY (DEPORTED PERSONS)
  Mr. Pickthornasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what provision is made in the Rumanian and Hungarian treaties for the repatriation of men, women and children forcibly deported from these countries.
  Mr. Bevin: There is no provision in the draft Treaties of Peace with Rumania and Hungary to deal with this question.
  Mr. Pickthorn: Is it intended to do anything to try to secure fair terms for these people?
  Mr. Bevin: I think that all these problems will have to be dealt with under the Human Rights Clause of the machinery which U.N.R.R.A. is considering, dealing with human rights.
  Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Can the right hon. Gentleman give some indication of the number involved?
  Mr. Bevin: Not without notice.

  FORMER ITALIAN COLONIES
  Mr. David Rentonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he proposes to take to ascertain the wishes of the inhabitants of Cyrenaica and Tripolitania, respectively, as to the future of their territories.
  Mr. Bevin: Under the terms of the joint declaration prepared by the Council of Foreign Ministers, International Commissions of Investigation are to be sent to the former Italian Colonies, including Cyrenaica and Tripolitania. One of the tasks of these Commissions will be to ascertain the views of the local population.

  POLAND (BRITISH DETAINEES)
  Mr. Spenceasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is satisfied that no British nationals are still detained, either wrongfully or accidentally, in Polish prisons.
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. Repeated requests have been made to the Polish Provisional Government that His Majesty's Embassy and Consular officers should be informed whether British subjects are detained I regret to say that the Polish Security authorities have not adopted this practice. A certain amount of inconclusive evidence has reached us recently showing that a few British nationals may still be detained in Polish prisons. Urgent inquiries are now being made.
  Mr. Spence: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very grave misgivings that have been aroused over the recent case, which has been settled; and will he give an assurance that every pressure will be brought to bear on both the Polish and other authorities concerned?
  Mr. Bevin: Certainly, Sir.
  Major Guy Lloyd: Will the Foreign Secretary agree that the fact that some British nationals have been in prison in Poland for a long time has been known to the Foreign Office for many months?
  Mr. Bevin: We have been pursuing this matter, but it is not easy with everyone who claims to be a British national to establish the fact that he is a British national.

  MUFTI OF JERUSALEM
  Dr. Segalasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the promise given by the ex-Mufti of Jerusalem to the Egyptian Prime Minister, not to take part in any political activity during the period of his stay on Egyptian soil, has been strictly observed.
  Mr. Bevin: It is unfortunately clear that the Mufti of Jerusalem has not acted in accordance with the assurances which he gave to the Egyptian Prime Minister. His Majesty's Ambassador has brought the Mufti's recent activities to the attention of Sidki Pasha who now has the matter under consideration.

  U.N.R.R.A. SUPPLIES (CONTINUATION)
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reasons for the opposition of the British representative, at the fifth Session of the Council of U.N.R.R.A., to any proposals made for the continuance of U.N.R.R.A. 's relief and supply activities, at least until the 1947 harvest.
  Mr. Bevin: His Majesty's Government decided not to support the continuation of U.N.R.R.A. after the completion of its present programme of operations, which will last well into 1947, largely because, in their view, the problem will then be no longer one of relief. The needs of countries are not uniform and it really

  1639
  becomes a question of balance of payments which will have to be taken into account. The Fifth Session of the Council adopted a resolution to go into this problem of balance of payments, and His Majesty's Government, in view of their own limited resources, cannot pledge themselves to undertake any further liability except in cases of proven need.
  Mr. Warbey: Is it not the case that reports from many countries show that the need for relief is likely to continue well after next year's harvest; and would it not be to the credit of this country if we had taken a stand for the provision of "collective security," which this great institution implies?
  Mr. Bevin: I feel that this country has contributed out of all proportion. While we are willing to continue taxing our people to help cases of proven need, we cannot enter into unlimited liabilities of this character.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the special needs of Greece, and that the delay in coming to a final settlement on reparations may make it impossible for the Greek people to undertake the burden themselves, and may make it essential for temporary measures to be initiated for their help?
  Mr. Bevin: There are individual cases which will receive our consideration, but we cannot again go in for that form of relief which we have indulged in through U.N.R.R.A. after this year.
  Mr. Warbey: In view of the public importance of this question, I beg to give notice to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  FOREIGN SERVICE (CONFIDENTIAL WORK)
  Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will issue an instruction to British ambassadors in foreign countries that, in future, only British citizens should be employed by them in a confidential capacity.
  Mr. Bevin: His Majesty's representatives abroad were informed last December that it is my policy that only British subjects should be employed on confidential work at Foreign Service posts.
  Major Lloyd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that a Soviet citizen was recently brought from Russia and employed in a highly confidential capacity in an important Embassy abroad, and, if so, will he take steps to see that that employment ceases, in the light of the policy which he has announced?
  Mr. Bevin: If the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars, I will look into the matter.
  Major Lloyd: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that he is not aware of the name?
  Mr. Bevin: I have not heard of it.

  ANGLO-SOVIET AGREEMENT
  Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many times His Majesty's Government have suggested to the Soviet Government the extension of the Anglo-Soviet agreement of mutual assistance; and what have been the replies.
  Mr. Bevin: This proposal has twice been put to the Soviet Government, once by myself and once through His Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow. I also referred to it in speeches in this House, notably on 21st February and 4th June. We have not received a favourable reply.

  GOERING'S SUICIDE (INQUIRY)
  Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has yet received a report from the British element of the Allied Control Commission in regard to the suicide of Herman Goering; and if he will give an undertaking that it will be published when received.
  Mr. Bevin: I understand that the American authorities have appointed a committee to investigate this matter and that its findings will be reported to the Allied Control Council in Berlin. It will be for the Control Council to decide whether or not the findings of this committee should be made public.
  Wing-Commander Hulbert: Will not this report be forwarded to the right hon. Gentleman, and, when he receives it, will he then publish it?
  Mr. Bevin: That is not the point put to me in the Question. The authority for publishing or not publishing lies not with His Majesty's Government but with the Allied Control Council in Berlin.
  Mr. Wilson Harris: Had not Herman Goering better be left just to stay dead?
  Mr. Bevin: It is a rather cold subject now.

  GREEK PLEBISCITE (OBSERVERS)
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reasons for the alteration of the decision that the British and U.S. observers of the revision of the registers in preparation for the recent plebiscite in Greece, should not stay to observe the plebiscite itself.
  Mr. Bevin: The observers who were sent out to Greece to supervise the revision of the Greek electoral registers were not sufficiently numerous to cover the ground adequately and produce an authoritative report for the Greek Government on the actual conduct of the Greek plebiscite. The invitation of the Greek Government to leave them in Greece to observe the plebiscite as the elections were observed was accordingly declined. The Greek Government, however, pressed their request and His Majesty's Government decided that in the circumstances the observers should stay on as a means of increasing the amount of information available to the British Embassy on the conduct of the plebiscite.
  Mr. Warbey: If the number of observers was insufficient for proper observation of the plebiscite, why did they go through the farce of staying on to observe it, and if the number was adequate, why does not my right hon. Friend publish their report?
  Mr. Bevin: It was a general observation at the request of the Greek Government, but I have never accepted it as an authoritative observation, such as that of the elections was.

  PASSPORT AND FRONTIER FACILITIES
  Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will arrange for the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations, or what-
  1642
  ever is the appropriate body for that purpose, to discuss at an early date the possibility of making arrangements to increase tourist traffic between the United Nations.
  Mr. Bevin: Action which I hope will in due course facilitate the increase of tourist traffic has already been taken by the Economic and Social Council, and the United Kingdom delegation have played their full part in its promotion. As the details are rather long, I will, with permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following are the details:
  The Economic and Social Council at its second session in June last asked the Secretary-General of the United Nations to convene a meeting of experts to prepare for a world conference on passport and frontier formalities. At its third session ending early in the present month, the Council passed a further resolution, presented by the United Kingdom delegation, requesting the Secretary-General to prepare and circulate a draft agenda for this meeting. The draft agenda is to take into account recommendations made by the Provisional International Civil Aviation Organisation, by the Conference of Official Travel Agencies (recently held in London under the auspices of the Tourist Association of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), and by any other competent international groups such as the Council of the International Chamber of Commerce who have made, or wish to make, recommendations on the subject of passport and frontier formalities. The Economic and Social Council in the same resolution also requested its Transport and Communications Commission to report to the Council without delay on the method by which the Council can best be advised on travel questions.

  ARCHBISHOP STEPINAC (SENTENCE)
  Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the letter sent him by the Archbishop of Westminster concerning the recent trial of, and sentences on, Archbishop Stepinac and others; and what reply has been sent.
  Mr. Bevin; I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on this subject

  1643
  on 21st October to the hon. Members for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) and North Salford (Mr. McAdam).
  Mr. Stokes: Having read that reply, may I ask my right hon. Friend to consider making representations to the Yugoslav Government, in view of the fact that the archbishop was our constant ally in 1941, during the worst of the crisis, and thereafter, at a time when the Orthodox Church, which is now comme il faut with the Tito Government, was shaking hands with Mussolini; and will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the evidence brought against the archbishop would have been turned down in any decent court of law?
  Mr. Bevin: I am going through all the papers that have been forwarded.
  Mr. Hale: In view of the real alarm among His Majesty's Catholic subjects, about this unhappy trial, will my right hon. Friend do his utmost to see that the fullest facts are presented for consideration by His Majesty's Government?
  Sir Patrick Hannon: Has the Foreign Secretary received any report from His Majesty's Ambassador in Belgrade on this savage trial which took place before the tribunal in Yugoslavia?
  Mr. Bevin: I have seen reports, but I have asked for a very full report on the whole of the circumstances.
  Mr. Logan: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the consternation in the Northern part of this country in regard to this trial, and as we have made representations for other persons in many countries, is it not possible for representations to be made for a Catholic archbishop?
  Mr. Bevin: That is quite true, but I must be sure of the facts.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: On a point of Order. The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) included in his supplementary question just now an attack on another branch of the Church. Is not that to be deprecated?
  Mr. Speaker: This is a difficult matter; after all, we have no right to interfere with trials of non-British subjects in a foreign country.

  VISAS (U.K. AND FRANCE)
  Wing-Commander Roland Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will now announce the date for the mutual abolition of visas between the United Kingdom and France.
  Mr. Bevin: It will not be possible to announce the date until the discussions between the two Governments on technical details have been concluded. I hope, however, that once these working details have been settled a few days will suffice to give full effect to this agreement.
  Wing-Commander Robinson: Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that, in spite of announcements on the subject, no agreement has been signed?
  Mr. Bevin: That is quite true. When it is a question of abolishing visas at the end of a war, there are all sorts of things, security reasons and others, to be taken into account. All this has to be discussed with other Governments individually. I am pressing on with negotiations, and as soon as an agreement is arrived at, I will publish it.
  Lieut.-Colonel Dower: In view of those very successful negotiations, will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to obtain the same facilities with other countries?
  Mr. Bevin: Certainly. I am already in touch with Belgium and Holland, and we are also hoping to extend the negotiations, but hon. Members will appreciate that in the terribly disturbed state of Europe, with millions of displaced persons, and all the other things one has to contend with, this matter has to be-handled a little carefully.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke; Will the Foreign Secretary tell us whether he is meeting any resistance from other countries on the principle?
  Mr. Bevin: There is no resistance at all in the countries I have been talking to. Everybody is anxious to get over this difficulty, but everybody is conscious that one cannot just wipe it out, and have no other control. I do not want to create a situation in which we abolish visas and then have to ask the Home Office to increase the police control in such a way that entry is delayed at the port on arrival.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Training Areas
    Mr. Keelingasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty which commons and public open spaces, requisitioned during the war, his Department proposes to acquire; and whether he will give the earliest possible notice to planning authorities of any future proposals for such acquisition.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): As stated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War in reply to the hon. Member yesterday, the whole question of Service requirements for land is at present under consideration by an Inter-Departmental Committee. The answer to the second part of the Question is "Yes, Sir."
    Mr. Keeling: Does the Minister appreciate that the public will expect to be given an opportunity to object to any proposal which the Government may make to deprive them of the use of these commons and open spaces?
    Mr. Edwards: Certainly that is appreciated, and obviously it will be borne in mind by the Ministry of Town and Country Planning.

    Centralised Messing
    Commander Nobleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the name of the first ship in which cafeteria messing was fitted for trial and the date; the date on which the first ship was fitted with cafeteria messing; and the date on which the plans for galleys, cafeteria messing and dining halls in H.M.S. "Vanguard" were approved.
    The Parliamentary Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. John Dugdale): Instructions were issued in May, 1944, that H.M.S. "Implacable" was to be provided with a form of centralised messing. This was, however, an improvisation to meet messing requirements; the arrangements were made at very short notice and not under ideal conditions since no major alterations were possible. The first full satisfactory experiment in a British-built ship was made in H.M.S. "Vanguard." Approval for this experiment was given in August, 1944. I may add that instructions were first issued in April of this year that all ships undergoing
    1646
    a major refit were to be equipped with galleys up to American standard.
    Commander Noble: In view of the dates given in the reply, would the Parliamentary Secretary like to reconsider the statement he made in the House on the Motion for the Adjournment on nth October?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir, certainly not. I stated then, and I repeat the statement now, that it was this year that instructions were first issued that ships were to be fitted with this new equipment as and when they underwent a major refit.
    Mr. J. P. L. Thomas: As the Parliamentary Secretary has admitted that instructions were given by the Board in regard to H.M.S. "Vanguard." in August, 1944, is he also aware that those were trial arrangements which, if successful, were to be carried on in cruisers and other ships; and in view of the fact that this decision was made in 1944, were not his statements on nth October, in the Adjournment Debate, really based upon inaccurate information and made in a party political spirit which was never shown by the late First Lord? In those circumstances is he not prepared to withdraw his statements made in that Debate on nth October?
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir, I am not prepared to do so, because I do not consider the statements were in any way misleading, and the facts are as I have now related them.
    Commander Noble: Perhaps I might refresh the Parliamentary Secretary's memory—
    Mr. Speaker: To begin a supplementary question with the words, "Perhaps I might refresh the Parliamentary Secretary's memory," is very wide of what is in Order. I think we had better get on with the next Question.

    Sea Cadet Corps (Grants)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will consider the making of grants to sea cadet units in respect of boys between the ages of 12 and 14.
    Mr. Dugdale: No, Sir. The minimum age of enrolment in the Sea Cadet Corps is 14, and I regret that it is accordingly not possible to make grants to units in respect of boys below this age.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If I send the Parliamentary Secretary particulars of a unit providing first class training for 100 of these boys within 12 miles of this Chamber, will he undertake to come and have a look at it, with a view to seeing whether he can do something to help?
    Mr. Dugdale: I will certainly come and look at it.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Will the Parliamentary Secretary stick to his point and refrain from giving this grant, because this excellent organisation can start training perfectly well at the age of 14?

    West Indian Sugar Shipment
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty under what permission, Admiralty instruction or rule, H.M.S. "Frobisher" was not allowed to convey 50 tons of sugar from Trinidad to Portsmouth when at that time sugar cane was rotting for lack of shipping.
    Mr. Dugdale: The hon. Member is under a misapprehension; this was not due to any Admiralty rule or instruction. The offer by H.M.S. "Frobisher" to carry 50 tons of sugar to Portsmouth was notified to the Ministry of Food, by whom all imports and allocations of food are controlled, but was not accepted by that Department, as complete arrangements had already been made for shipment of all Trinidad sugar available for export direct to ports with refineries. H.M.S. "Frobisher" was informed accordingly.
    Mr. Marshall: Is the Minister aware that I put that Question to the Ministry of Food on 29th May and that in reply they gave me an assurance that in no circumstances had they forbidden permission for H.M.S. "Frobisher" to carry this cargo?
    Mr. Dugdale: I did not say that they had forbidden it; I said that other arrangements had been made.

    Fleet Air Arm (Civilians)
    Mr. Spenceasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many civilians are employed at Fleet Air Arm stations in this country; and what is the nature of their employment.
    Mr. W. Edwards: The number of civilians employed at Naval Air Establishments in the United Kingdom is
    1648
    approximately 6,000. They are employed on a variety of duties, such as clerks, cleaners, storekeepers, mess servants, motor transport drivers, and many others which do not require a fully trained naval rating.
    Mr. Spence: Is there any reason why these duties should not be carried out by Service personnel, and might it not be more economical for them to be carried out in this way?
    Mr. Edwards: So far as transport drivers are concerned, it would be very costly for the Navy to have all its motor transport driving carried out by trained personnel. With regard to the many other duties, there are occasions when we may be able to use naval ratings but because of the demobilisation programme it is very difficult always to find them.

    Recruitment and Re-engagement
    Commander Maitlandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the relatively small number of men ho have accepted extended service engagements, he will consider publishing a quarterly return giving this information and any other information regarding the rate of recruitment and state of manpower in the Royal Navy.
    Mr. Dugdale: I am in consultation with the other two Service departments with a view to publishing recruiting figures.
    Commander Maitlandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether opportunities are given to petty officers and men in the Royal Navy who do not desire to take advantage of the chance to sign on for a further period of service and for pension, to state or write, if they so desire, the reasons for their decision.
    Mr. Dugdale: There is no formal procedure under which a man may give reasons for not wishing to re-engage, but he would be permitted to make a written statement if he so wished. Petty officers and men may also be invited verbally by their commanding officers to state their reasons.
    Commander Maitland: In view of the difficulty which is known to exist in getting men to sign on, would it not be common sense to find out the reasons why they are not signing on, and cannot the Minister introduce that custom?
    Mr. Dugdale: I have already said that men may be invited verbally by their commanding officers to state their reasons, and I hope that they will do so.
    Commander Maitland: Could not the instruction be that they "shall," not "may"?
    Mr. Dugdale: It is not possible in every case.
    Mr. Scollan: Is the Minister not of the opinion that it might be very embarrassing to some of the commanders if the men gave their real reasons?

    Pensions
    Commander Maitlandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what will be the maximum and minimum

    Rating (Seaman Branch)

    Years of Service.

    Naval Pension (New Code rates).

    Total Pension including 42/-Old Age Pension.

    Tax Payable at present rates.

    Net Income.

    Chief Petty Officer

    …

    22 (minimum)

    £1

    13

    2

    £3

    15

    2

    Nil

    £3

    15

    2

    35 (minimum)

    £3

    19

    11

    £6

    1

    11

    8/5

    £5

    13

    6

    38 or more

    £4

    10

    0

    £6

    12

    0

    11/1

    £6

    0

    11

    (maximum pension).

    Leading Rate

    …

    22 (minimum)

    £1

    11

    0

    £3

    13

    0

    Nil

    £3

    13

    0

    35 (or more)

    £3

    10

    0

    £5

    12

    0

    5/11

    £5

    6

    1

    (maximum pension).

    Able Seaman

    …

    22(minimum)

    £1

    6

    4

    £3

    8

    4

    Nil

    £3

    8

    4

    35 (minimum)

    £3

    3

    4

    £5

    5

    4

    4/-

    £5

    1

    4

    (no maximum yet fixed)

    "Battle of the Atlantic"
    Mr. Mallalieuasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many copies of the booklet, "Battle of the Atlantic" have been sold to date.
    Mr. Dugdale: The entire first print of 100,000 copies of the booklet published on 15th October was sold out in four days. In view of its popularity, the Stationery Office is arranging for a further print to be issued.

    Electrical Branch (New Formation)
    Major Bruceasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will give information about the formation of an electrical branch in the R.N.; and the proposed method of recruitment of its officers and ratings.
    1650
    net weekly incomes of retired married ex-chief petty officers, seamen's branch, who are in receipt of their naval pensions and old age pensions after income tax has been deducted; and how these figures compare with the equivalent figures for retired leading seamen and able seamen in the same category and under the same conditions.
    Mr. Dugdale: As the reply contains a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the table:
    The rates of pension payable will depend on length of service and rate of advancement. Assuming in all cases an average rate of advancement, the comparative figures would be:
    Mr. Dugdale: Yes, Sir. The unprecedented growth of electrical equipment in His Majesty's ships arising out of development during the war has necessitated the formation of a new Electrical Branch in the Royal Navy which will be known as the "L" Branch. I am arranging for details of the scheme to be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT of today's proceedings.
    Major Bruce: What facilities will exist for promotion from the lower deck in connection with the establishment of this new branch?
    Mr. Dugdale: I suggest that my hon. and gallant Friend awaits the publication in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Cobb: Will this new branch include radio and its allied services?
    Mr. Dugdale: I think it would be much better if hon. Members would read all these details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the details:
    The Electrical Branch will be responsible for all electrical engineering duties in the Fleet, and will be concerned with all aspects of naval electrical and radio engineering, including maintenance, research, development and design of new equipment.
    The immediate requirements for officers have been met by the transfer of suitable officers from other branches and from qualified temporary officers. Future recruitment of officers for the branch will in the main be from young men between the ages of 17 and 19 on 1st September each year, who have obtained a higher school certificate of one of the recognised university examination boards with mathematics and physics as main subjects. Selected candidates would undergo a year's training as naval cadets (L), followed by three years advance technical training to honours degree standard. For the present, this will be at Cambridge University. This will be followed by a further two years naval training, and training at commercial electrical engineering works. Full details of the cadet entry are being circulated to schools.
    Ratings will join the Navy through the recruiting offices and will then be selected for the new branch and trained in the Service with similar conditions of advancement to other branches. They will normally be specialised in either electrics or radio. The artificers of the branch will be entered as heretofore, and a proportion will specialise in radio work. Opportunities will be provided for ratings to attain commissioned rank in the branch. An avenue to commissioned rank will also be provided for selected naval artificers and dockyard apprentices.

  MERCHANT NAVY (FLAGS)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Government propose to allow British merchant ships to fly the Union Jack.
  Mr. Dugdale: I have consulted my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, and it is not proposed to make any
  1652
  change in the flags flown by the Merchant Navy.
  Mr. Keeling: While I do not question that decision, will the hon. Gentleman give the reasons for it, in view of the public interest in this matter?
  Mr. Dugdale: It is 300 years since this rule was introduced, and we have had no official representations in favour of changing it, and there does not seem to be any reason why it should be changed. I feel that the Merchant Navy are proud of their "red duster," and want to keep it.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Senior Officers (Press Articles)
    Brigadier Lowasked the Secretary of State for Air whether it is the Government's policy that senior R.A.F. members of the Air Council should be permitted to write articles in the Press on current R.A.F. problems.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas): Statements on policy are, of course, reserved for Ministers. However, senior R.A.F. officers, including members of the Air Council, may occasionally have to help the Service by speaking at Press conferences, giving broadcasts or writing special articles for the Press. The article which may have given rise to the hon. and gallant Member's question was in furtherance of the R.A.F. recruiting campaign.
    Brigadier Low: Is it not desirable, since the need for recruits affects the other Services, that the Air Ministry should coordinate their policy in this respect with the War Office and the Admiralty?
    Mr. de Freitas: There is a coordination of policy in this connection. I am satis-, fied that what was done was properly done in the interests of Royal Air Force recruiting and did not conflict with any policy at all.

    Spare Hangars
    Mr. Osborneasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will permit the sale of hangars from redundant aerodromes in North Lincolnshire to private companies for the storage of grain and the packing of foods.
    Mr. de Freitas: Spare hangars, of the smaller types that can be taken away, are

    1653
    offered for sale from time to time. Particulars can be obtained locally from our superintending engineers. The allocation of storage space in larger buildings is arranged by the Board of Trade.
    Mr. Osborne: Does this include small aerodromes like Waltham and Kelstern, which are two of those I have in mind?
    Mr. de Freitas: It is not a question of the size of the aerodrome but of the hangars.
    Mr. Osborne: I mean the hangars on those aerodromes.
    Mr. de Freitas: If the hon. Member will. get into touch with the local superintending engineer, in this case at Retford, he will find that there are 30 small blister hangars in North Lincolnshire which will shortly be on sale.

    Training Areas
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for Air which commons and public open spaces, requisitioned during the war, his Department proposes to acquire; and whether he will give the earliest possible notice to planning authorities of any future proposals for such acquisition.
    Mr. de Freitas: Our proposals are under discussion with the other Departments concerned, including the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, through whom the local planning authorities are consulted at the earliest possible stage. I am not yet in a position to make any definite statement, but I can assure the hon. Member that I will give the House further information as soon as I can.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Minister answer the second part of the Question, and will he give the assurance, which has already-been given by the War Office and the Admiralty, that the public will be given every opportunity to object to any proposal by the Government for such acquisition?
    Mr. de Freitas: Yes, and under the Act of 1945 that happens automatically since it is laid down that there must be publication of the notices of proposal, that they must be served on the local planning authorities, and that the objections must be considered by the War Works Commission.

    Posting System
    Mr. Osborneasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that the main reason for the lack of R.A.F. recruits is the constant reposting of officers and men and the consequent uncertainty about their immediate future; and if he will consider commissioning officers and men for a minimum period of three years on one station.
    Mr. de Freitas: This is one of the temporary problems we have to face while demobilisation is going on, and I am afraid we can only improve matters gradually. Even in stable conditions a certain amount of movement is inevitable, because of overseas service, promotion, remustering and so on. But I should add that we are returning to our prewar practice of trying to post airmen in this country to the districts they prefer.
    Mr. Osborne: Is the Minister not aware that both men and officers feel that there is a good deal of unnecessary posting, and will he stop it as soon as possible?
    Mr. de Freitas: Certainly we do not like posting because of the waste of man hours, but to give some idea of the amount of turbulence caused by demobilisation hon. Members may be interested to know that of every 10 men who were mobilised on VE-Day we shall have demobilised 8½ by the end of this year.

    Attestation Form
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Air whether his attention has been drawn to paragraph 3 of Form 2168, relating to attestation; and whether it is the intention of his Department to apply this condition to men attested and then deferred for air-crew service.
    Mr. de Freitas: The answer to both parts of the Question is "Yes, Sir." I should, however, add that the White Paper issued in September, 1944, states that only whole time service on full pay counts for release.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Will not the Under-Secretary agree that the White Paper in that respect is entirely inconsistent with paragraph 3 of the form to which I invited his attention, and which states definitely:
    "Your term of service shall begin to reckon from the date of attestation."
    Mr. de Freitas: It was quite clear to the men at the time because they were given Form 2150 as well as 2168, and that pointed out that they were not embodied. They were merely placed in a pool of potential air crew and were protected from call-up. They were clearly not embodied; in fact, they stayed at home and kept on with their civilian jobs.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the Parliamentary Secretary further state whether in addition to these two forms a third form was handed to these men telling them which of the other two was applicable?
    Mr. de Freitas: So far as I know there was no third form, but, read together, the other two were quite plain and the actual wording does not refer to full-time paid service.

    Aircraft Accident, Nigeria
    Mr. Hopkin Morrisasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will publish the findings of the inquiry into the loss of the Dakota aircraft which crashed near, Oni, Nigeria, on 8th June this year.
    Mr. de Freitas: I have written to the hon. and learned Member telling him what little we know about this accident. There were no survivors or eyewitnesses of the accident, but there is little doubt that it was caused by a sudden tropical storm.

    Personal Cases
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that, despite repeated promises given to the hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) and the hon. Member for Maldon, the two airmen numbered 2262456 and 2260280, who are identical twins, have still not been posted to the same station; and if he will make good his assurances forthwith.
    Mr. de Freitas: I must apologise for the repeated mistakes that were made in the posting arrangements for these airmen. They have now both been posted to the same unit.

  PRODUCTION DRIVE
  Mr. Osborneasked the Prime Minister what has been the results of his spring appeal to the trades unions and industrial leaders for greater output; if he is satisfied with the response; and what further steps he contemplates to increase industrial output.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): As the hon. Member has no doubt observed, the figures and statements published month by month show a general improvement in the output of goods, and I think that the Production Drive, which I inaugurated in the spring, has played an important part in bringing about this result. We are, however, still a long way from meeting our needs in production both for the home market and to pay for our necessary imports, and the Government are taking all possible steps to encourage and assist managements and workers to increase output. As hon. Members will be aware, an important feature of the first phase of the Production Drive has been a series of regional conferences of employers and trade unionists addressed by Ministers. Use has in addition been made of Ministerial broadcasts and speeches; a leaflet, copies of which have been circulated to hon. Members, has been widely distributed; a short film has been produced and a national poster campaign has been launched.
  In the second phase of the drive, which is now opening, it is proposed to follow these measures up by the greatest possible use of the various media to bring home the objects of the drive to every individual concerned, whether in workshop or office; and in this connection the fine lead which has just been given by the Trades Union Congress at Brighton should be of the utmost assistance. The aims of the Production Drive will, I am sure, commend themselves to all sections of the House, and I should like to take this opportunity of inviting Members, irrespective of party, to cooperate with us in furthering them to the fullest possible extent.
  Mr. Osborne: In view of the overriding importance of the coal industry, the repeated threat that we may have two million unemployed, and the fact that the miners will not follow the Fuel Minister at all, will the Prime Minister himself make a pressing appeal to the mining industry?
  The Prime Minister: I do not accept the hon. Member's premises.
  Mr. Walkden: Does the Prime Minister not feel deeply dissatisfied at the attitude of certain people who are constantly making mischief, particularly members of the Tory Party?
  Sir W. Smithers: May I ask the Prime Minister if when he is making an appeal for increase in exports he will also point out, in view of the approaching end of the sellers' market, the necessity for exporting goods and services at world competitive prices?
  The Prime Minister: That point is necessarily borne in mind. We are endeavouring to bring all such points, which are fairly elementary, before the public.
  Sir W. Smithers: That is never done.
  Mr. Errollasked the Lord President of the Council whether he will arrange for the Government leaflet, "Extra Effort Now Means Better Living Sooner," to be distributed where practicable by shop stewards and trades union officials to the workers they directly represent.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Copies have been supplied to the Trades Union Congress, who, I understand, intend to distribute them to their members and to trades councils; to national employers' organisations; and to the Regional Boards for Industry and the District Production Committees, on which both employers and trade unionists sit; and they will be available for distribution at production conferences and factory meetings.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: Instead of issuing these exhortations to additional effort, would it not be very much more to the point if we considered what are the real factors making for restricted output at the moment, such as the incidence of taxation and the restrictive practices of one kind and another; and will the right hon. Gentleman get to grips with the problem?
  Mr. Morrison: This publication is not an exhortation. The hon. Gentleman must not judge everybody else by his own feelings on the matter. It is not an exhortation; it is a plain and reasonable statement of facts addressed to plain and reasonable people.
  Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Will the Government bear in mind that better living now will bring extra effort sooner?
  Mr. Morrison: If the hon. and gallant Member wants to contribute to cheering the nation up instead of depressing it, we shall be very glad of his help.
  Mr. Erroll: Why do the Government insist on keeping the shop stewards out of this extra effort?
  Mr. Morrison: Nobody has said that the shop stewards were out of it. I have no doubt that the shop stewards are playing their part.

  WALES (WHITE PAPER)
  Mr. David Grenfellasked the Prime Minister when the White Paper on Government action in Wales is being presented to Parliament.
  Mr. H. Morrison: A summary of Government action in Wales during the first year of postwar reconversion has been presented this afternoon and copies are now available in the Vote Office.

  SOUTH AFRICAN UNION (SOUTH-WEST AFRICA)
  Mr. Rees-Williamsasked the Prime Minister what steps have been taken to ascertain the views of the native African peoples of the mandated territory of South-west Africa on the proposed incorporation of this territory in the Union of South Africa.
  The Prime Minister: His Majesty's Government in the Union of South Africa have supplied the following statement:
  "In order that the non-European inhabitants of South-West Africa should clearly understand the implications of the questions at issue, the consultation of them was entrusted to officials with the necessary experience in native affairs, who enjoy the confidence of the natives. Having regard to native custom, the different tribes were consulted as units and not as individuals. The officials selected were instructed to emphasise that the natives were a free people and had the right to express their views without fear. In accordance with the undertaking given by the Union Government at the first part of the first session of the United Nations General Assembly held in London in January, the detailed results of this consultation will be communicated to the second part of the first session of the General Assembly at its meeting in New York this month.
  "Briefly, the consultation showed that 208,850 of the non-European population were in favour of their country becoming part of the Union; 33,520 were against; while 56,790 could not be consulted, the latter number being made up for the most part of persons scattered across the farms of the territory or nomads such as the bushmen."

  1659
  I take this opportunity to say that His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are satisfied as to the steps taken by the South African Government to ascertain the wishes of the inhabitants. It may be of interest to hon. Members that the South African authorities took advantage of the presence in South Africa of Lord Hailey, whose great authority on these matters is well known, to ascertain his views on the procedure adopted. He has informed them that he is in no doubt that complete fairness characterised their explanation of the issue upon which the natives were requested to express their opinion, that the opinion of the natives was freely and voluntarily expressed and that the consultations conformed to the normal tribal practice.
  Mr. Rees-Williams: Is the Prime Minister aware that his statement will give considerable relief to those who have been interested in this matter?
  The Prime Minister: I am very glad to hear that.
  Mr. Warbey: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Union Government refused permission to important expert independent observers to go into the territory while these consultations were taking place, and that even so distinguished a personality as Lord Hailey was refused admission to this territory?
  The Prime Minister: I am not aware of that. I should like any basis of that statement to be given to me.
  Mr. Warbey: I shall be glad to send it.

  GERMANY

    Illegitimate Children (British Soldiers)
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what legal process exists by which a woman of German nationality in the British zone can establish the parentage of her child, where a British soldier is alleged to be involved.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd): There are no facilities for legal proceedings in cases of this kind. I am advised that even if affiliation proceedings were possible no maintenance order of the German court, or indeed of any foreign court, could,
    1660
    under the Army Act, be enforced against a British soldier.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster satisfied that this state of affairs is likely to give the Germans cause to regard British justice very highly?
    Mr. Hynd: It is a matter of legal fact that the Army Act, Section 145 (2), has the effect that proceedings for maintenance of an illegitimate child can only be enforced against a British subject under an Act of the United Kingdom Parliament or Common Law.

    Demolition, Hamburg
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether it was with his approval that houses sufficient to accommodate 1,400 persons have been destroyed in order to make room for the Hamburg project.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The houses which are being demolished for this purpose are war-damaged and were occupied by, not 1,400 persons, but some 500. Their demolition was necessary to enable complete rebuilding on the site, which had already been largely cleared by bombing. The scheme was given full consideration and was only approved after full consultation with the local German authorities.
    Mr. Stokes: My information is contrary to that of the Minister. If I send it to him, will he please look into it? Why was it that this site was chosen when a few hundred yards away there was a completely vacant site, where no one need have been disturbed at all?
    Mr. Hynd: My information is different from my hon. Friend's. This site was chosen, as I said, in consultation with the German local authorities, as being the most suitable and appropriate site, and one on which large scale rebuilding could be most easily and economically undertaken.
    Mr. Frank Byers: In view of the difference in information, is it not time that the Minister established headquarters in the British zone?
    Mr. Hobson: Will the Minister state what alternative accommodation there is?
    Mr. Hynd: I think that has been dealt with fairly fully, but I would like to clear

    1661
    up any misunderstanding which may have arisen from letters to the Press and elsewhere. The people removed from these damaged houses are not put into air raid shelters or cellars, but are given accommodation in existing German houses.
    Mr. York: Is the hon. Gentleman aware, when he says that consultations took place with the local authorities, that the local authorities in fact advised very strongly against this method?
    Mr. Hynd: No, I am not aware of that; in fact, I have discussed the matter with the local authorities.

    Grain Harvests
    Mr. Vaneasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he has any information regarding the estimated yield of wheat and other corn harvested in 1946 in the eastern provinces of Germany; how these quantities compare with pre-1939 yields; and what proportion of the 1946 harvest will be delivered to the western provinces.
    Mr. J. Hynd: I regret that I have no information on the first two parts of the Question. A recent trade agreement provides for the delivery of 100,000 tons of wheat and rye and 20,000 tons of fodder oats from the Russian zone to the British zone.
    Mr. Vane: Do not those figures represent only a very small fraction of the quantities which came to Western Germany in the last three or four prewar years from Eastern Germany?
    Mr. Hynd: That may be true, but we are talking in terms of the Russian zone of Germany as it is at the present time, and it should be borne in mind that the greater part of the agricultural areas in Eastern Germany are not in the Russian zone, but under Polish control.

    Political Intelligence Department
    Mr. Vaneasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many persons employed, whole or part time, by the P.I.D. (German Section) of his Department are, or were formerly, of German nationality; and of which political parties they were members before 1939.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The figures are—31 whole time and 97 part time. No record is kept of any former political affiliations, but I am satisfied that the steps taken
    1662
    are such as to ensure the reliability of these employees for the work
    Mr. Vane: Does the Minister wish to tell the House that the screening of these people is so open that no questions are asked about previous political opinions?
    Mr. Hynd: No, I said that no record is kept. Naturally, we take steps, where we think them desirable, to ascertain whether or not they belonged to certain political parties in the past, but I can assure the House that the screening is very complete. While no record is kept of previous political affiliations, we know what affiliations they had at the time. They are accepted.

    Nuremberg Trials (Publicity)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what steps are being taken to disseminate throughout the British zone of Germany the largest possible number of reports of the Nuremberg trials, both in full and in condensed versions, particularly of those passages in the evidence and cross-examinations in which there were admissions of guilt by the Nazi criminals.
    Mr. J. Hynd: Extensive publicity has already been given to the Nuremberg Trial and we shall take any additional opportunity for further dissemination throughout the British zone. The Trial has been reported throughout by the Press, wireless and newsreels. Pamphlets containing the opening speeches of the chief prosecutors and 100,000 copies of the judgment have been distributed in the British zone. 40 copies of Stationery Office publications which include the indictment and the speeches of the chief prosecutors at the opening of the Trial, and at the close of the case against each individual defendant, have been sent to German authors and editors. The verbatim reports of the proceedings, also published by the Stationery Office, are being sent to Germany as each part becomes available. A book about the Trial entitled "The Nuremberg Documents," has been approved for publication by a licensed German publisher. Reports of admissions of guilt by Nazi leaders have been given prominence by the German Press and radio.
    Mr. Driberg: Apart from the publicity to which my hon. Friend has referred, most of which is purely ephemeral and will soon pass from the minds of German

    1663
    people, will plenty of paper be available for a large number of copies of the book to be published?
    Mr. Hynd: We hope to find ways and means of making available in the early future sufficient paper for all official records, and for reports for popular consumption in Germany. But it must be recognised that at present within Germany the paper shortage is one of our difficulties.
    Major Legge-Bourke: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether it is an official publication or, if by private authorship, by whom?
    Mr. Hynd: There is a book called "The Nuremberg Documents" which is being published as a Control Office selected book for distribution in Germany and Austria in the German language. We expect that we shall soon have at our disposal very considerable editions of another book which will be published in that country.
    Flight-Lieutenant Crawley: In view of the fact that statements made by the prisoners on the scaffold counteract to a large extent the effect of the publication of the trial, has the Minister made any representations to the American zone authorities on this subject?
    Mr. Hynd: I personally have made no representations.

  AUSTRIA

    Trade Union Property (Return)
    Mr. Randallasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what arrangements have been made to return to the Austrian labour trades unions and co-operative movement the property stolen from them by the Fascists in 1933 and 1934 and the Nazis in March, 1938.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The Austrian Government are now preparing legislation to provide for the return of such property.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Will the hon. Gentleman press this question on the Austrian Government, if possible, because they are the greatest bulwark in rebuilding Austrian democracy?
    Mr. Hynd: I do not think there is any need to press it on the Austrian Government, because the Federal Chancellor gave an assurance to this effect in
    1664
    February, and a Bill is now being drafted for early presentation to the Austrian Parliament; and the British authorities have given a written undertaking to the Austrian trade unions that, pending the passing of the legislation, we shall take no action to prejudice the return of the property.

    Postal Censorship
    Mr. Randallasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he is aware of the fall of postal traffic in Austria, with its subsequent loss of revenue, following the imposition of censorship; that to avoid this censorship a private courier service is being set up; and, in view of this, when is it proposed to bring to an end this censorship.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The censorship of internal postal communications was discontinued in Austria on 4th October.
    Mr. Randall: But is the hon. Gentleman not aware that there has been a serious loss of revenue and compensation paid, because of the loss of the contents? Also, is he aware that the Nazis did not impose censorship while apparently democracy does?
    Mr. Hynd: As I pointed out, censorship has been abolished. The House will agree that in the early stages of the occupation it was necessary that a censorship should be imposed.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Channel Islands
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food if he has considered the details which have been sent to him complaining of mal-distribution of certain foodstuffs; and if he has any statement to make.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): I have considered the correspondence sent to me by the hon. Member about food supplies in Jersey. Rations in the Channel Islands are the same as in the United Kingdom. I find that in the case of one of the unrationed foods mentioned in the correspondence—Nescafe—the Islands have been receiving more than their fair share, and steps are now being taken by the manufacturers to reduce deliveries. I have no reason to think however, that overall the consumers in the Channel Islands are more favourably treated than elsewhere.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the Minister aware that control from Whitehall of distribution makes the distribution uneven, that the distribution of food is breaking down all over the country, and that the failure of the Government is inciting and compelling citizens to be dishonest?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir, I am aware of none of those suggestions.
    Sir W. Smithers: They are quite true.

    Coin Meter Collectors
    Brigadier Lowasked the Minister of Food why coin meter collectors who have to carry loads varying between 40 and 70 lbs. during their daily visits to houses in the course of their duty, are not classed as manual workers, whereas postmen, who only carry approximately 35 lbs. loads, are so classed; and whether he will now include coin meter collectors in the category of manual workers.
    Mr. Straehey: I cannot necessarily accept the comparison which the hon. and gallant Member makes, but if coin meter collectors as a class are regularly employed for not less than 22 hours a week in carrying loads of 40 to 70 pounds, the matter will be considered on receipt of an appeal, with full information, through the appropriate channel as laid down in paragraph 4 of B.M.W.1.
    Brigadier Low: Does not the right hon. Gentleman admit that appeals have been made to him from many channels in the last three months or so to have these matters considered?
    Mr. Strachey: No, no appeal has arrived at the Ministry from the Trades Union Congress committee, which is the channel to which I was referring, but no doubt that could be done.
    Brigadier Low: Perhaps I could give the matter expedition by presenting the copy of the letter?
    Mr. Strachey: Certainly, Sir.

    National Flour (Calcium)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Food what quantity of calcium is inserted in flour at present.
    Mr. Strachey: Calcium is at present mixed into national flour at the rate of 14 oz. per 280 1b. of flour, i.e. 0.3125 per cent.

    Peach Imports
    Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Food the quantity and value of the peaches imported into this, country during 1946; what were the main countries of origin; and what price controls were intended to operate when such imported peaches were sold retail in shops or from barrows.
    Mr. Strachey: Up to the end of September, 12,443 tons of peaches, including nectarines, have been imported, valued at £2,700,940; these included 4,474 tons from France and 7,781 tons from Italy and small quantities from Holland and Belgium. No maximum retail prices have been prescribed.

    Beer Production
    Dr. Comynsasked the Minister of Food if he is aware of the shortage of beer in the Silvertown area; and if he will arrange for an adequate supply at the earliest opportunity.
    Mr. Wyattasked the Minister of Food whether any change has been made in the basis on which brewers' beer production quotas are fixed.
    Mr. Strachey: As from 1st October, production quotas are based upon production during the year ended 31st March, 1946, instead of the year ended 30th September, 1945. This will result in a small increase in supplies of beer, particularly in London, and Silvertown will no doubt share in that increase.

    Colchester Co-operative Society (Licences)
    Mr. Baker Whiteasked the Minister of Food if his attention has been called to the proceedings at the Clacton magistrates court on 9th October, which resulted in heavy fines being imposed upon the Colchester Co-operative Society for the illegal supply of meat to Travco Hotels, Limited, a subsidiary concern of the Co-operative Wholesale Society; and whether he proposes to take steps to revoke the licence to trade of the Colchester Co-operative Society.
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir; I am aware of the results of this case, and when I have considered the matter fully I shall decide if action should be taken in regard to the licences held by the society.

    Rat Destruction
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Food on what date the Administration of Rats Order will be transferred to his Department; how many rat administrators there are in Britain; what is their salary; how many are male and how many female; what steps are taken to ascertain their qualifications for these posts; and what is the cost for each rat killed.
    Mr. Strachey: No arrangement is contemplated for the transfer of the administration of the Rats Order of 3rd June, 1940, to my Department. I am, however, responsible for the administration of rat destruction in non-agricultural land. The staff directly engaged on this work in Britain consists of 15 senior officers who are all men; one receives £900 per annum and the others £450—£600 per annum plus the appropriate cost of living bonus. There are also approximately 140 junior inspectors, clerical and subordinate staff. The senior officers are recruited through a selection board, which is responsible for examining their qualifications. I cannot give the cost of each rat killed—there are some ten million of them —but, in any case, the value of the service is best assessed in terms of damage prevented.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the Minister aware that he could dismiss the whole of his staff and pay 3d. a tail for every rat caught? In that way he would save the country a lot of money and get more rats killed.
    Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Is it not a fact that 169 officials are engaged in the administration of this matter, and that only 104 are actually rat catchers?
    Mr. Strachey: No Sir, I do not think these figures bear that out.
    Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Oh, yes they do.

  DESTROYERS, CORFU (MINE EXPLOSIONS)
  Major Bruce(by Private Notice) asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has any statement to make on the mining of two British Destroyers off the coast of Corfu on 22nd October.
  Mr. Dugdale: Yes, Sir.
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  On the afternoon of 22nd October, the First Cruiser Squadron, with accompanying destroyers, was on passage through the straits between the Island of Corfu and the mainland, close to the Greek-Albanian boundary. The cruiser "Mauritius" was leading, with the destroyer "Saumarez" close astern; the cruiser "Leander" with the destroyer "Volage" in company were two miles astern of the "Mauritius."
  At 14.53 hours an explosion occurred in the "Saumarez," which was believed to have hit a mine, and the ship caught fire forward. "Volage" was then ordered to tow "Saumarez" back to Corfu, but at 16.31 there was an explosion in "Volage," whose bows were blown off.
  "Volage" then attempted to proceed stern first with "Saumarez" in tow, but with a westerly wind there was considerable danger that both ships might drift ashore. The Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean, ordered immediate assistance to be sent from Malta and the Hospital Ship "Maine" was also ordered from Zante to Corfu. The Greek and Italian naval authorities were also asked for assistance.
  In spite of the difficulties, both of the damaged destroyers succeeded in making their way back and have now arrived safely at Corfu. A board of inquiry is being assembled to inquire into the cause of the explosion.
  I regret to have to state that the casualties suffered have been serious. The latest figures received at the Admiralty are:

  Killed (including missing, believed killed)

  Officers

  Ratings

  1

  37

  Injured

  Officers

  Ratings

  2

  43

  The next-of-kin are being informed. I am sure the House will join with me in expressing the deepest sympathy with the relatives of the killed and injured men.
  I should explain that at the time of the accidents, both ships were in the very centre of the swept channel, which is one mile wide. Their position at the time

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  was about 1½ miles from the Albanian coast. The channel was searched by British minesweeping forces periodically from October, 1944, to February, 1945, and no mines were found. Since that time, the channel has been in use by naval vessels of various sizes; it has also been open to merchant ships for nearly two years, though I cannot give particulars of the amount of merchant traffic that is using the channel.
  Major Bruce: Will my hon. Friend give the House an assurance that the dependants of the people who have been killed and the injured will receive an adequate amount of compensation? Will he say whether the Albanian Government had any notice of the fact that British destroyers were going through their territorial waters?
  Mr. Dugdale: With regard to the first question, they will naturally receive the proper compensation. With regard to the second question, I would prefer to await the report of the board of inquiry.
  Captain Marsden: May I ask if the compensation will be paid on the assumption that the officer and men were killed on active service?
  Mr. Dugdale: Yes, Sir, I think that will be the case.
  Mr. Churchill: Is this the channel where our cruisers were fired upon by the Albanian batteries some months ago?
  Mr. Dugdale: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Hobson: Can the Financial Secretary say the last time the channel was swept?
  Mr. Dugdale: I have said that in my reply.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. William Whiteley.]
3.36 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday made a very extensive and detailed review of the international situation, and it was followed by an interesting Debate. I am quite sure that every hon. Member who listened to that speech will have realised the immensity of the problems which face the world, those problems with which the Foreign Secretary has to grapple. While there are, I am glad to say, areas in the world which offer no immediate problems, there are very many countries today which present disturbed conditions, and in many of them this country's interest is intimately concerned. I think everyone must sympathise with the Foreign Secretary in the magnitude of his task. Quite apart from the major problems of the future of Germany and Japan, there are adjustments in the relationship of the States of Europe. Old quarrels come up again which have" been running for years. Some of these States were fighting for the Allies; some willingly, some of them more or less unwillingly, were the tools of the Nazis. There is in many parts of the world the clash of nationalities, and while perhaps the most urgent problem that faces us is the future of Europe, the disorganisation of which has twice resulted from world war, there is the challenge of Asia, the Far East. India Indonesia, and the Palestine problem, with which we are not dealing today.
My right hon. Friend has given an account of the many difficulties which attend efforts to bring about peace after a long war. I do not suppose that even the most optimistic of us thought that we could have cleared off these problems in 15 months, but we have been having discussions at Paris, and the points of difference between the great Powers have been brought out into the light of day owing to the publicity given to those discussions. After the first world war there were long debates, long discussions, there were differences that had to be adjusted.
But those discussions were mostly held in private. It is a fair matter for argument how far full and public discussion

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of these matters is better than the adjustment of differences behind closed doors. For my part, I am certain that despite all the disadvantages of the method employed today, those debates have had an educative effect on the general body of citizens, and I think that the general body of citizens today are far more alive to the issues involved than were their predecessors 27 years ago.
My right hon. Friend, towards the end of his speech, pointed out that what was taking place in Paris was really a preliminary. It was only the discussion of treaties with particular States, and not settling with the two major aggressor States; and he pointed out that beyond these matters lay the wider question of the organisation of the world in order to prevent a future world war. It is with that overriding problem I wish to deal this afternoon. Last week, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill for the memorial to President Roosevelt, I called attention to his prescience in calling the San Francisco Conference, from which has resulted the United Nations organisation. Today, even as we meet, the opening of the second part of the first session of the General Assembly of the United Nations is taking place in New York. I am sure the House realises and I hope that everyone in the country realises its importance.
We have been reading week by week of discussions on the boundaries of particular European States, of the South Tyrol, Bratislava, the future status of Trieste. We have read a good many violent speeches. But all these matters, however important to the people most immediately concerned, are really very small issues compared with the major issue that confronts the world, that major task of building peace on sure foundations. It is, after all, to this object that the United Nations organisation is dedicated. We must remove from the peoples of the world this haunting fear of another war. There are many questions that can be settled and should be settled by agreement between neighbouring States. There are minor matters, and even large matters, that can be settled without the intervention of any international authority, but the matters that are to be discussed in New York can only be settled by international action.
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Let me call the attention of the House to some of them. The General Assembly will be considering the report of the Economic and Social Council. They will have to deal with a world problem—the shortage of cereals. They will have to deal with the reconstruction of devastated areas. They will have to deal with the baffling problem of the refugees and displaced persons. These problems are quite beyond the scope of any one country to solve, inside or outside its own frontiers. Yet they must be solved if the world is to settle down to peace. My right hon. Friend pointed out in his speech yesterday that the background to the political difficulties of the world is the economic disorganisation resulting from the war. We are all very well aware of the extent to which the economic crisis of the years around 1930 contributed to the rise of Hitlerism and the degeneration of the world situation; and we must, if we are to establish peace, pay as much attention to economic as to political problems.
I thought that this was well brought out in some of the speeches which I either heard delivered yesterday or have read since then. In particular, I thought there was a very well-informed and able maiden speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Plaistow (Mr. Elwyn Jones), who brought this out well in dealing with the problem of Germany. It is easy and tempting to attribute all the troubles from which the world is suffering to the policy pursued by particular Powers. The fact remains that the economic conditions on which the statesmen of the world have to work were not created by those States. They were created by the action of the aggressors who plunged the world into war. There is, therefore, an absolute necessity for the existence of a world-wide organisation to furnish means of discussion between nations, so that the solution of these problems can be worked out by a united effort.
I thought that in the speeches yesterday there was at times a note of pessimism. I think this was quite understandable, in view of the trends of the discussions at Paris, but we ought not to lose sight of the progress that has been made in developing common policies to deal with world needs. While public attention has been mainly devoted, perhaps too much devoted, to the discussion of the peace treaties at Paris, there

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was an important conference at Copenhagen on food and agriculture. There is a forthcoming conference on world trade and industry. There has been a meeting of the Social and Economic Council that covered an immense range of subjects. There has been going on all the time, in fact, quite apart from political discussions, a steady development, under the United Nations, of many other social, economic and cultural instruments. There is a provisional civil aviation authority; there is an education authority known as U.N.E.S.C.O. There are important consultations dealing with matters such as human rights, transport and many other matters. We must try today to keep a just perspective in these matters. We must accept positive gain against the negations which sometimes seem perhaps to be the most prominent feature of some international gatherings. There is another matter which is coming before the Assembly at its present meeting. Last January, His Majesty's Government took the lead in announcing their intention to place Tanganyika, Togoland, and the Cameroons, at present administered under mandate, under trusteeship Negotiation of the draft terms of trusteeship has been completed, and these draft terms will be submitted to the General Assembly. This is just another instance of the many actions of His Majesty's Government which give the lie to the parrot call of "British Imperialism."
I would call attention this afternoon to another matter which is down for discussion and which is of vital importance to the very existence of the United Nations organisation. That is the question of the veto in the Security Council. It raises the whole question of the value of the Security Council. I have in my mind very vivid recollections of the San Francisco Conference. I attended there with my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works, and other Members of the Coalition Government. We worked as a team, and much hard work was done. There was a spirit in that meeting of hopefulness and good will. I cannot help expressing a feeling of disappointment at the recent performances in the Security Council. It has undoubtedly given an impression of disunity and ineffectiveness—such as to raise doubts about its value as an instru-
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ment for preserving international peace and security. This, I think, is not due to any fault in the machinery which was devised, but ill the use to which it has been put.
After all, the underlying hypothesis that unless the five leading Powers were in general agreement on the policy to be pursued by the Security Council there was little hope for the preservation of peace, was, I think, correct. I think it took account of the realities of the situation. But it all depends on what is meant by "in agreement," what is meant by "unanimity." If the Security Council is only going to be able to decide on a line of action in the case where the five great Powers have all made up their minds in advance, and find themselves in agreement before discussion in the Security Council, the occasions on which the Council can reach positive decision will, I am afraid, be very few.
At San Francisco we agreed to the creation of the veto, but I am quite certain that we all regarded this as something to be used only in the last resort in extreme cases where the five great Powers might be involved in conflict. We never conceived it as a device to be used constantly whenever a particular Power was not in full agreement with the others. Yet that is just what has happened recently. The veto was used for every trifling thing and that is reducing to a nullity the usefulness of the Security Council. What is more, it is leading to disrespect, whereas the Security Council was created in order to create confidence, to command confidence as a quasi-judicial body in matters of differences between States which involved the danger of war.
The use of the Security Council as a propaganda instrument is to be regretted. It is the desire of His Majesty's Government that this body should return to and fulfil its original intention so that the world may feel that there exists an instrument which, when matters cannot be settled by negotiation between countries, stands ready to intervene and bring impartial minds to bear upon the issues involved. Nothing will be so disastrous to the peace of the world as to allow the respect, dignity and power of the Security Council to be brought to nought.
While His Majesty's Government are not at the present time prepared to move that there should be any change in the

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Charier, we certainly are of the opinion that there should be a review of the use of the veto with a view to restraining it to its original intent. After all, what was our conception of the Security Council? Our conception was that the meetings of the great Powers and their discussions in Council were for the purpose of exchanging points of view and making concessions where necessary, and of realising that it was more important that the Security Council should reach a corporate decision than that the viewpoint of individuals should be maintained through thick and thin. In fact, if the Security Council is to be worked, it must be worked with a belief in the democratic method of arriving at results. There must be good will. There must be acceptance of the democratic principle of the rights and obligations of the majority and minority. We in this House over many years have worked on that principle. Broadly speaking, the will of the majority prevails, but the majority give full opportunity for the minority to put their views and both sides understand the point beyond which it is unwise to insist.
In the course of the Debate yesterday, I thought the vital principles of democracy were very well brought out in speeches from both sides of the House. I listened with particular interest to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Flight-Lieutenant Crawley). I think he showed a just appreciation of this principle. I read the speech of the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Platts-Mills). It was, I thought, entirely out of tune with the principles of democratic thought to which the Labour Party is attached. It was in fact not much more than a reproduction of the ordinary propaganda stuff of the Communist Party. I suggest to the hon. Member that he might leave this to the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) and the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin), who are returned as professed Communists.
We reach here, in the consideration of this question, the central question that faces us today. If we are to achieve a peaceful world, States of diverse characters must be prepared to tolerate each other and work together. While we recognise all the difficulties involved, the Government are resolved to bring this about. While His Majesty's Government and the
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Government of the United States share a common devotion to the principles of freedom and democracy on which the Constitutions of both countries are founded, we have great differences in our economic outlook and yet we have every hope and belief that we can work together in seeking to solve some of the grave economic problems which the world has to face. We believe, with the Government of Soviet Russia, in the principles of the control of the economic life of the community by the people for the people, but we are deeply divided from them in the value we place on the liberty of the individual, freedom of speech, and our conception of democracy. Nevertheless, we believe, that it is not only possible but essential for us to work together, in order to prevent the calamity of another war which would overwhelm everyone, whatever may be their ideologies. We have shown in the British Commonwealth of Nations how Governments of different political views— Liberals, Conservatives, Socialists—can work in the closest harmony for a common end, without in any way relinquishing their individual views.
There is another matter relating to the United Nations organisation to which I would call attention. It was an essential purpose of the Charter that there should be available military sanctions in order that aggression might be halted. To this end, there is a provision in the Charter for the establishment of a Military Staff Committee. It is a matter of great regret that this Committee has not been allowed to function more effectively. Meanwhile, there has been a proposal in the Security Council demanding the return of the numbers of foreign troops in certain countries. This demand has not been accepted, and I think rightly, because there is no provision in the Charter for such return, and, in the form in which it was raised, it savoured of pure propaganda.
The danger to the world does not lie in the use of troops for police purposes. Indeed, they are so placed now in many parts of the world, but, in a very short time, they will be totally removed and the situation needing them will no longer arise, as, for instance, in Venezia Giulia and Greece. In regard to Venezia Giulia, I should like to answer a point which was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden

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(Mr. Butler). I can assure him that British troops will remain on the Morgan line until agreement in this matter has been reached in the peace treaty and the relevant portions of the treaty implemented. The general position abroad will, of course, be affected by a variety of changes in political development going on all over the world. What does constitute a danger is the presence of mobilised forces, and, while these mobilised forces may not be on other people's territory, they may still be a positive danger to peace.
I have seen in recent weeks and have heard sometimes criticism of the fact that a number of Ministers have been out of this country. The fact is, of course, that, if we are to play our part, and our part is a leading part in international affairs, we must provide for adequate representation at these conferences. I know that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary would far rather be here at home than in Paris or New York, but I am sure that everyone will agree that his presence abroad at these conferences is necessary in the interests of the country. In Paris, my right hon. Friend was very ably assisted by the Minister without Portfolio, and by several junior Ministers. As regards the meeting of the United Nations organisation, my right hon. Friend will not be there for part of the time, but the Secretary of State for Air, the Attorney-General and the Minister of State will be among our principal delegates, and some junior Ministers will also be attending for part of the time. Believe me, attendance at these conferences is not just a joy-ride and a holiday—and I have had some.
I would like here to refer to the very distinguished work which was done by Sir Alexander Cadogan in the Security Council. He has made it his endeavour to keep the Council to its proper purpose, namely, an organisation for the preservation of peace and security, and to prevent it from degenerating into a platform for national propaganda. I should like also to call attention to his vigorous defence of British policy and of the British Army in Greece, against quite unwarranted attacks. I hope that, at the forthcoming meetings, we shall see the United Nations organisation put to its proper use. We must, of course, recall that it is still very young, that it is bound to have some teething troubles and that some of those attending it have been almost completely
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without experience of the functioning of democratic institutions. We must hope that they will learn. My right hon. Friend and his colleagues will go to New York fortified by this Debate, for I believe that the policy he is pursuing with such patience and ability has the general support of the vast majority of the people of this country.
The criticisms which are made, apart from those which seem to be based on the thesis that Soviet Russia is always right, have not been directed against the general policy of H.M. Government. They have been directed to particular points, on which it is thought by some that other tactics would have produced better results. It is, for instance, suggested that intervention in Spain, or direct action by economic sanctions or by the withdrawal of ambassadors, would bring about the result which we all desire—a change of regime. I suppose I have as much dislike for the Franco regime as anyone in the House, but, in my considered opinion, those views are mistaken. All the evidence at my disposal points to the opposite conclusion, that external intervention will only strengthen General Franco—a very deplorable result.
On the other hand, it is suggested by some that the Government should not have interfered in Greece, and that we have been working deliberately to create and foster reactionary Governments. Nothing could be further from the truth. We had one object and one only—to give the Greek people the opportunity of deciding freely on their own destiny. But it is really idle for anyone recalling the history of Greece in recent years, and with a knowledge of the realities of Greek political life, to suppose that, but for Great Britain, there would be political agreement in that country. There are extremists on both sides who are prepared to resort to methods of violence. There has been little willingness among politicians, even among those whose views did not seem to differ very widely, to sink minor differences and personal considerations in the common interests of their country.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham rightly stressed the fact that the policy of this Government—internal and external policy—is that of democratic Socialism. We believe that men and women must be free, both from the excessive domination of Governments,

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and from the abuses of economic power. We do not seek to thrust our views upon other nations. We are seeking to set an example here of how individual freedom and the interests of the community can be harmonised, and, in our international relations, to afford to all peoples the greatest possible freedom to work out their own salvation, consistent with the overriding interests of all in the preservation of peace.
4.9 p.m.
Mr. Churchill: The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary wished to open this Debate and I may say, merely to safeguard future practice, that it is not quite usual for a two days' Debate to be opened from the Government benches. However, I, naturally, willingly agreed to the right hon. Gentleman making his statement, and we all have been greatly interested in the speech which he has made. Indeed, I think there was a very general measure of agreement in the House with everything, or nearly everything, he said. Where there may be differences, they are not differences on what he said so much as on what, for no doubt very good reasons, the right hon. Gentleman left unsaid. As to the value of what are called the "open discussions" which have been proceeding in Paris, I can only comment that they seem to be bad diplomacy, but, none the less, valuable education. As to the veto, that is a very serious matter. It is well known that Soviet Russia would not have joined the original San Francisco Conference unless they had had what they regarded as the essential security of the veto. I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it was never contemplated at any time that the veto should be used in the abrupt, arbitrary and almost continuous manner that we have seen it used, but that it should be reserved as a last assurance to a great Power that they would not be voted down on a matter about which they were prepared to fight. There is, certainly, a great departure from that tradition, and the Foreign Secretary will be supported on this side of the House in endeavouring to secure a modification in the uses of the veto, even if he is not at this time, able to secure a very considerable restriction of its employment.
We all wish the Foreign Secretary a successful mission to the United States. No one complains of his having to be
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out of the country. It is his duty to go over and, indeed, I, myself, believe very much that advantage comes from that. Even in the days of the National Coalition, Ministers sometimes left the country for considerable periods, and I, having left the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister to carry on affairs, allowed myself all the necessary latitude in these respects. We all, as I say, wish that the right hon. Gentleman may have a successful mission in the United States, and we are confident that, in many respects, he will be upholding, not party but national, and indeed not national, but world issues.
In the Debate yesterday the right hon. Gentleman made considerable references to Germany, and perhaps the most important part of his speech consisted of declarations of policy about Germany, and about the Anglo-American occupied zones in Germany. Agreement on this was expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler). We are in full agreement with the modifications and the mitigations of the severity of German life under present conditions, so far as these are physically and economically possible. It is only common sense that the Germans should earn their own living, and I think it is only common sense that they should manage their own affairs, provided, and always provided, that effective disarmament is enforced and maintained over a prolonged period of years. We do not want to have the burden of teaching the Germans how to manage their own affairs, and we do not want to have the burden of earning their living for them. The remarks of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject might be held by captious critics to be a criticism of the policy so far pursued by His Majesty's Government.
However, there is just one point I should like to make on the subject of Germany managing her own affairs. The right hon. Gentleman announced—and I see that it gave great satisfaction at one of the watering places where festivities occasionally take place—that he was proceeding to nationalise the various great German industries and place them under the Commander-in-Chief. All I can tell the House is that experience and looking back on the past show that one may be quite sure that when the Germans have the power of managing their own affairs,

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they will not be attracted to a policy, whatever it may be, by the fact that it has been imposed upon them by foreigners. It was exactly what happened after the first world war when we imposed upon Germany, by force, all the blessings of a liberal constitution. All the blessings of freedom from the tyranny of conscription and many benefits fought for by generations of effort in this country were enforced by the victors upon the defeated Germans and were, for that very reason, odious in their eyes. But, as I say, it may be that it will work differently this time.
I must comment first this afternoon upon two or three special questions which are likely to cause trouble and are, indeed, already causes of disquiet. I have nothing to add today to the statements which I have made on previous occasions about Egypt and Palestine. No one can say that His Majesty's Government have not done their best to meet Egyptian wishes. Indeed, many of us thought that they had gone too far and had adopted the wrong methods in stating, at the outset of their negotiations, that they were willing to evacuate the Canal zone, which zone is secure to us for the next few critical years to come by the Anglo-Egyptian treaty of 1936. The result has been what was then predicted, namely, that their maximum offer was taken as the starting point for new discussions, and these discussions now even involve the whole sovereignty and future of the Sudan. I remind the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister of his statement on 7th May, when he said that, obviously, if negotiations break down the original treaty still stands. I hope that His Majesty's Government will act in this sense.
Before we separated for the Autumn Recess, I spoke about Palestine. I must refer to that subject, linked as it is with all other questions of the Middle East. If we are not able to fulfil our pledge to the Jews to create a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine—which is our undoubted pledge—we are entitled and, indeed, bound, in my view—I speak my personal view; there are differences on this subject in all quarters of the House—because it is our duty, and certainly we have a full right, to lay our Mandate at the feet of the United Nations organisation. The burden may yet be too heavy for one single country to bear.
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It is not right that the United States, who are so very keen on Jewish immigration into Palestine, should take no share in the task, and should reproach us for our obvious incapacity to cope with the difficulties of the problem.
At present, we have no policy, as far as I can make out, nor have we had one for more than a year. The amount of suffering which this indecision in regard to a question which, I admit, may well be called the "riddle of the Sphinx," and the amount of suffering which this hesitation is causing to all concerned, simply cannot be measured. From the moment when we declare that we will give up the Mandate—giving proper notice, of course—all our difficulties will be considerably lessened, and if other interested Powers wish us to continue, it is for them to make proposals and help us in our work. We have at this moment a large proportion of our overseas Army in Palestine engaged in a horrible, squalid conflict with the Zionist community there. This is a disproportionate exertion for us, a wrong distribution of our limited forces, and the most thankless task ever undertaken by any country. If we stand on the treaty with Egypt about the Canal zone, we have no need to seek a new strategic base of very doubtful usefulness in Palestine, and we can present ourselves to the world organisation as a totally disinterested party. Superior solutions may then, for the first time, become open. I strongly commend this course of action to His Majesty's Government and to the House.
I was very glad yesterday to hear what the Foreign Secretary said about Greece. The result of the Greek plebiscite upon the return of the King fully vindicates the course pursued by the National Coalition Government, by the interim Government of which I was the head, and by His Majesty's present advisers. We have always said it was a question for the Greek people to decide freely for themselves. This they have done under conditions which impartial foreign observers have pronounced not unfair, and which are incomparably more free and valid than anything that has been seen in that part of the world for a very long time. That pronouncement ought to be the end of our special wartime responsibilities towards Greece. I was glad to hear that our troops will be brought home as soon as possible. [An HON. MEMBER: "When

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will that be?"] I am not pressing for details. There is a kind of guerrilla warfare on the Northern frontier of Greece which does not arise out of internal Greek affairs. It arises out of very much larger complications. But still I am most anxious that our troops should come home. I am tired of hearing it said that we are in Greece for something which we wish to get out of the country, or for some advantage. I know of no advantage that we gain or seek in Greece except those ordinary advantages enjoyed by all nations, of trade and friendship, which we ourselves enjoyed before the war.
The future safety and independence of Greece, like many other vital matters, lie in the hands of U.N.O. Our ancient friendship with Greece will never flag or die, but here, as elsewhere, we seek no gain or benefit of a selfish character for ourselves and, as I have just said, we have no desire for any advantages which we did not possess before the war. I hope that all Greeks who wish for the survival of their country will help the new regime and Government, and that the Government will be continually broadened to include all who prefer the life and freedom of Greece to its ruin and absorption in a Communist Balkan bloc. I hope fair play will be given to the new regime and the new Government of Greece, and that every step taken will not be the target for sharp arrows of carefully barbed, poisoned propaganda. It is very easy for foreign observers in a position of perfect detachment, to abuse a Government which is struggling against a Communist conspiracy, fermented and supported by outside intrigues. An armed Communist advances upon you, you react against him; therefore, you are a reactionary.
I must now speak about Poland. Here, indeed, an unhappy scene is unfolded to our eyes. In my opinion, the Soviet Government have departed, I am sorry to say, in the spirit and in the letter from many of the agreements and understandings into which we entered with them before Yalta, and at Yalta. It was my firm belief that Marshal Stalin would rest content with the Curzon line, and with a Poland friendly to Russia, and permanently divorced from Germany. On that, I offered on many occasions my counsel
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to the House. It was agreed that, on this basis, there should be free elections in Poland and that the Polish Republic should be an independent Power. What has happened now? A Government has been set up in Poland which in no way represents the Polish nation. This Government is incapable of holding free or fair elections. The Peasant Party are to be given no full and free opportunity of voting in accordance with their convictions, and of having their votes counted in accordance with their numbers. We must be very careful to distinguish in our minds between the present Polish Government, and the heart of the Polish nation, to whose sorrows and sufferings there seems never to be an end.
I presume that the most delicate and difficult situation at the moment is that which exists around Trieste, where British and American divisions confront the very much larger forces which Marshal Tito has kept under arms and assembled there. Gratitude does not seem to be the outstanding feature of Marshal Tito's character. I am sure every one here was shocked at the brutal and callous manner in which American aeroplanes and their passengers were shot down by the air force of a country, whose liberation and independence would never have been achieved but for British and American aid and exertion, or without the victorious campaigns fought in Italy and Germany by the Western Allies. The whole attitude of the Yugoslav Communist Government towards this country, and even more towards the United States, is far from friendly. Considering that the United States is the main contributor to U.N.R.R.A., and that scores of millions of pounds of supplies have been poured into Yugoslavia since the end of the German war, the murder of the American airmen and passengers presents itself in a singularly repulsive light.
Conditions in Yugoslavia are sinister and melancholy. The whole country is being converted, as far as possible, into a Communist area. Communism is being taught in the schools, and every effort is being made to create a Soviet Socialist Republic in the closest association with Moscow. It is not for us to interfere in the internal affairs of another country. [Laughter.] Well, I am afraid I make my principle of general application. The Catholic Church and clergy in Croatia are being persecuted with the greatest

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severity, and the strictest measures of police government are applied to political dissentients. The circumstances of the trial and condemnation of the Archbishop of Zagreb have created widespread regret. There is growing discontent in Serbia, to whose peasant proprietors Communist doctrines are unwelcome. I am sorry to be embarrassing to the Foreign Secretary—
Mr. Scollan: The right hon. Gentleman is being a great help to him.
Mr. Churchill: I can assure the hon. Gentleman, I would be at any time that there was a real need. The course followed by His Majesty's Government has, throughout, been wise and correct, and I am glad to see it has been taken in the closest harmony with that of the United States. I earnestly trust that this policy towards Yugoslavia will be pursued by His Majesty's Government with perseverance, and that the great city of Trieste will be preserved as an international port, an outlet upon salt water for the commerce of all the States and peoples in the Danube Basin. I trust, also, that large Italian populations will not be transferred against their own will to Communist rule. I very nearly used another word. However, I trust they will not be transferred against their own will, and contrary to the whole principle of the Atlantic Charter. I was very glad to hear from the Prime Minister today, when he referred to the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden, that the British troops would not leave the Trieste area until the treaty has been fully signed and accepted by all States who are likely to be party to it.
Before I turn to a larger issue, let me first make a short digression. A few weeks ago the Prime Minister explained to us why in this Parliament His Majesty's Government have not kept the leaders of the Opposition—who, after all, represent half, or nearly half, the electorate—in touch with them on matters affecting the security of our country. The Prime Minister has always told us that if I, or my right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, asked specifically for information on any topic, he or the Foreign Secretary would be glad to see us. There may well be some occasion
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in the future when this process may be invoked. I cannot regard any fitful contacts which may occur, or which have occurred, as being satisfactory. However, I may make a suggestion for a formal conversation between the party representatives in the near future.
Mr. Scollan: Preparation for war?
Mr. Churchill: I said "conversation," formal conversation between the two leaders and those whom they choose to bring with them of the two parties.
Mr. Scollan: I asked the right hon. Gentleman: preparation for war?
Mr. Churchill: The hon. Member is falling under Senator Vandenberg's condemnation of those who always try to bring the word "war" into every discussion we have. However, I cannot pretend that it would be possible to conduct a discussion on foreign affairs with any sense of reality at the present time, without occasional mention of that odious and tragic word.
Mr. Scollan: The right hon. Gentleman has used it often enough.
Mr. Churchill: As far as information is concerned, we on this side of the House ask for no favours. We quite recognise that the entire responsibility for the conduct of affairs, and for the safety of the country, rests upon the Government which serves the Crown, and which is supported by a majority in the House of Commons. It is important, however, that this should be recognised and realised by the nation as a whole.
Now I am going to look back a little; in fact, I am going to look back for a year almost to the day, when on 22nd October, 1945, I pressed for more rapid demobilisation. I made the following statement, which I venture to think the House will permit me to read, as I copied it from HANSARD:
"I must, however, make one very serious reservation. In my calculations and estimates I have definitely excluded the possibility of a major war in the next few years. If His Majesty's Government consider that this is wrong, then it would not be a case of demobilisation at all but of remobilisation, because what has taken place and is going on has already woefully impaired the immediate lighting efficiency of the enormous Forces we still retain. I believe, however, it may be common ground that this possibility of a major war may rightly be excluded, and that

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we may have an interlude of grace in which mankind may be able to make better arrangements for this tortured world than we have hitherto achieved. Still, I make that reservation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd October, 1945; Vol. 414, c. 1696.]
On this basis, I also gave the minimum figures to which in my judgment— a judgment without official information— the reduction should be made, and I stated the figures. Those figures were: Royal Navy, 150,000; Army, 1,000,000; Royal Air Force, 400,000; total men, 1,550.000. The figures to which His Majesty's Government announced in February they are working are considerably less than this total, especially in respect of the Army and Air Force; the Navy is a little larger. These are the Government's figures to be obtained by 31st December this year, in the next 10 weeks: Royal Navy, 175,000; Army, 650,000, instead of 1,000,000; Royal Air Force, 275,000, instead of 400,000; total in the Services, taking only the published figures, 1,100,000 as against 1,550,000. I believe there are 100,000 recruits additional in training. The Government, therefore, have gone much further in reducing our military strength, notably in the Army and Air Force, even at a time when I urged we should get down to our minimum figure, whatever it was, as quickly as possible. I am not today treating this issue as controversial, as a matter of quarrel between the Government and the Opposition. The Government have the power and responsibility, and they ought to have the knowledge. I am, however, forced to examine the question whether the situation has deteriorated in the year that has passed.
Eight months ago, I made a speech at Fulton in the United States. It had a mixed reception on both sides of the Atlantic, and quite a number of hon. Members of this House put their names to a Motion condemning me for having made it. As events have moved, what I said at Fulton has been outpaced and overpassed by this movement of events, and by the movement of American opinion. If I were to make that speech at the present time and in the same place, it would attract no particular attention. At that time, I said that I did not believe the Soviet Government wanted war. I said that what they wanted were the fruits of war. I fervently hope and pray that the view which I then expressed is still
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correct, and on the whole I believe it is still correct. However, we are dealing with the unknowable. Like everyone else, I welcome the recent declarations of Marshal Stalin, and I always welcome any signs of affability which M. Molotov may display. I know him quite well, and, as the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary will corroborate, he is not nearly so spiky in private relationship as he appears in his public declarations. In these matters, it is not words that count, it is deeds and facts. This afternoon I am not going to examine the likelihood of another war, which would, of course, be total war.
In the Foreign Secretary's calm, assured and measured review of the world situation yesterday, it was evident that various differences of policy exist between the Soviet Government and what are called, for want of a better name—and it is not a bad name—the Western democracies. There are differences in the Far East; there are disputes about Persia; there are various grave and serious questions connected with the Dardanelles; above all, there is the situation at Trieste, there is Poland and its elections, and there are others. The right hon. Gentleman found it necessary—and he was quite right—to survey the whole far from cheering panorama, and touch upon all those points of view; and though his language was diplomatically correct in every respect, one could not help seeing those points of direct difference emerging as between the great Powers which are involved. It would be most unwise to ignore those differences, and every effort should be made to adjust them. I am sure every effort will be made by patient, friendly and, I hope, occasionally secret discussions between the principal Powers and personalities involved.
It was easier in Hitler's day to feel and forecast the general movement of events than it is now. Now we have to deal not with Hitler and his crude Nazi gang, with anti-Semitism as its principal theme; we are in the presence of something very much more difficult to measure, than what was set out so plainly in the pages of "Mein Kampf." We are in the presence of the collective mind, whose springs of action we cannot define. There are 13 or 14 very able men in the Kremlin who hold all Russia and more than a third of Europe in their control. Many stresses and pressures, internal as well

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as external, are working upon them, as upon all human beings. I cannot presume to forecast what decisions they will take, or to observe what decisions they may have already have taken; still less can I attempt to foresee the time factor in their affairs. One of our main difficulties in judging all these matters is that real intercourse and intimacy between our peoples are, to all intents and purposes, very much discouraged and prevented by the Soviet Government. There is none of that free comradely life and mixing, which very soon would bring immense changes in the relationships of these vast communities, and might sweep away suspicion, without relaxing vigilance.
For all these reasons, therefore, I express no opinion this afternoon upon the future, and I will confine myself strictly to asking for information about facts. The facts, or something like them—I cannot pretend to have exact information—are well known to many people in different countries. They are the main preoccupation of the General Staffs in Europe and America. Even before the recent war I was able, in a private situation, to present to the House and to the Government of the day various facts which were denied, but which afterwards proved only too true. In my present position, when I travel abroad, I am able to gather a certain amount of information from persons of high consequence in many countries; which, whenever it is useful or advantageous I should, naturally, convey, if it was worth while, to those who now bear responsibility.
The Prime Minister referred just now in his speech—he used the expression and I noted it down at the time—to "the total mobilised forces which may constitute a positive danger to peace." That is certainly a serious remark, coming as it does from the head of His Majesty's Government. Now, I am going to ask a question —it is all I have to say before I sit down —on which, I feel, the House, the nation and, indeed, the world should be told the truth as far as it is known to His Majesty's Government, and should be reassured, if it is possible, and as far as possible. To make it easier for the Government to give a brief and general answer, to make it possible for them to give an almost monosyllabic answer, I will put my question in a constructive form. Here is the question: Is it or is it
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not true that there are today more than 200 Soviet divisions on a war tooting in the occupied territories of Europe from the Baltic to Vienna, and from Vienna to the Black Sea? There is the question which I am asking, and it acquires particular significance in view of the Prime Minister's reference, which I heard only this afternoon in the House, to "total mobilised Forces which may constitute a positive danger to peace." I am not referring to the armies of satellite Powers which, in Poland, are numerous but reluctant, and in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria are less numerous but more ardent.
I shall be very much relieved if I can be told in the course of today's Debate that the figures I have given—which I have not given without prolonged consideration and heart searching, or without discussion with colleagues—are altogether excessive, and if His Majesty's Government can relieve our anxieties in the matter, I am quite ready to accept their statement, but I feel bound to put the question. When we think of all the helpless millions and hundreds of millions struggling to earn their living, toiling along the uphill path, hoping for the future, doing their best, one cannot but feel that they ought to know the main outlines, at least, of what is going on around them, which may so vitally affect them. That is all I wish to say today. We shall have further opportunities of discussing the whole position in the new Session and, of course, during the Debate on the Address.
4.50 p.m.
Mr. Pritt: Having been fortunate enough to catch your eye so early, Mr. Speaker, I still do not want to take up too much time as so many hon. and right hon. Members wish to address the House I have been able to follow much of the Debate personally, and a great deal of the field has already been covered by various speakers. I do not want to go over much of the general field, but rather to consider a little the position in relation to the Soviet Union. I feel greatly in sympathy with the general criticisms that have been made against the foreign policy—I suppose I must call it the foreign policy—of His Majesty's Government. Most certainly His Majesty's Government are pursuing it, but it is the foreign policy of the Foreign Office and of the Tory Party. That such a policy should be followed by a Socialist Govern-

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ment, which we welcomed 15 months ago with such high hopes, and which has satisfied those hopes in a great many directions, is a major disaster. I hoped for a very long time that the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary would change it, because I did not think it was natural to him and I knew it was not natural to the party to which he belongs, but it is quite plain that he will not change it; he thinks it is his own, he thinks it is right, and he means to pursue it.
As I said, I want to speak mainly about our relations with the Soviet Union. I have, of course, studied the policy of that country, and its relations to this country, for a great many years, and during the last Recess I spent most of my time there travelling about, meeting a great many people both English and Soviet, and I think I have learned a great many things and confirmed a great many of my opinions.
I have been shocked for a long time by the constant stream of anti-Soviet abuse, both direct and indirect, naked or disguised, that has been poured out in this country. Allowing for difference of language, the style is the style of Goebbels, and the work is the work of Goebbels. It is done not merely by Tories —one would expect it from them—but it is done also by too many people on what should be the Socialist side of the House. It is done in the Press—we expect it from the Press—and it is done in the B.B.C., and we expect it from them. Whilst the Government do not join in it to a very great extent, and join in it with some care and circumspection when they do, it is quite obvious that the many legitimate means the Government have of influencing the Press and the expression of opinion generally in this country are never used to check even the wildest stories of the Press, or the basest insinuations of the B.B.C.
I have been shocked too by another and, I think, more serious consideration. Whenever one attempts to follow the foreign policy of the country, that is, the foreign policy of the Government, the Foreign Office and the Tory Party, one is greatly shocked by the fact that it is nearly always quite easily explicable on the basis that the main object is to weaken and thwart the Soviet Union, while it is not always easy to explain it
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on any other footing. Look at countries like Bulgaria, Rumania and Poland, and it will be seen that, often under the guise of the claim to freedom of speech, the worst and most reactionary elements in those countries are consistently supported, and the most progressive elements consistently thwarted, in order to weaken the Soviet Union. Occasionally we learn from Foreign Office officials who do not keep their mouths quite as tightly closed as they should, that this is due to the doctrine of the balance of power, which naturally compels Great Britain to attempt to weaken the greatest Power in Europe, and the greatest Power in Europe, naturally, is always that one which has been in alliance with this country in a victorious war, because victory in war is apt to make countries a little more powerful. That is one explanation, but the other explanation seems to be quite plainly that it is anti-Soviet simply for the sake of being anti-Soviet. It is very difficult, even for the most charitable of us—and I try to include myself in that class—to believe that H.M. Government are actuated solely by a passion for democracy in Bulgaria and Rumania, when we see the way they work out their passion for democracy in Greece.
Oddly enough, the shock is a little greater when one comes back from the Soviet Union, having had the British Press there only at second hand, and having given the Soviet Press more careful attention than one could give it in this country—and having had, of course, the supreme advantage of not hearing the B.B.C. for weeks on end. It is an additional shock because, as one moves about and meets people in the U.S.S.R., and talks and thinks—thinks as hard as one can, with incessant self-criticism—it is really not possible, looking at it with reasonable eyes, to believe that that country is devoting its thought and intention at present to anything in the wide world but reconstruction. Every town you visit, every person you talk to, every street you look at—there is all the time the discussion, "Can we get this place rebuilt in time? Look at the amount of damage we have suffered, look at the amount of damage we have already repaired, look at the amount of further damage we want to repair, look what we are going to spend on education, on the health service, look what we are doing here and doing there." All the time,

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quite plainly and obviously, they are simply looking forward constructively, and considering the colossal rebuilding of their country. Just as an example may I say that I went round the relatively undamaged city of Kiev, and we totted up quite roughly the actual amount in terms of roubles of the gratuitous damage done in that city by the Germans before they left, and compared it with the British demand for 75 per cent. reparations for damage to British interests in a great many countries. We came to the conclusion that should Kiev get 100 per cent., there would not be anything left for the British to get at all, but that perhaps is a little by the way.
When I say that the Soviet Union is thinking in terms of reconstruction all the time, I do not mean to suggest that it is not anxious, as everybody is properly anxious, about its own security and does not want to keep its armed forces at whatever figure it thinks is right. I have not the remotest idea whether it has or has not 200 divisions in Europe, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) suggested. It is not a figure I have ever heard before, and perhaps the Government will answer about it. But I note at any rate that the all-pervading impression you get in that country is that they are so busily devoted to the really colossal task of trying to rebuild, that they would not think of war except as an appalling disaster. If the Americans or the British do not want war against them, and I do not think very many people in this country do, the way we are behaving towards them just now does not make sense of any kind. If we wanted war, it would make devilish sense; if we do not want war it does not make sense at all.
The tragedy of it, of course, from any point of view, and particularly from the Socialist point of view, is that this is the policy for which not only the Tories but also the Nazis have been working and propaganding for years and years—"For heaven's sake get the working class parties of Great Britain and Europe and everywhere else divided, for heaven's sake persuade the Labour parties of the world to pay more attention to fighting the Communists than to fighting the reactionaries, and then there will be a chance for the reactionaries." Our foreign policy just simply amounts to that.
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The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary said that he did not want to gang up with anyone, but if he is not ganging up with anyone. Wall Street must be ganging up with him without him knowing it. It is the Tory foreign policy. What is much more serious is that it is helping the less responsible and more evil minded of the worst elements in the United States against Soviet Russia. The United States have got capitalistic contradictions so acute that they may well be driven to war. The Soviet Union certainly have no contradictions to drive them to war. The United States are bringing war nearer; I do not say they are bringing war near, but they are bringing it nearer. And here we see a great Socialist party, with a pretty good Government on the whole, following not only Tory policy, but the anti-Soviet policy which the Tories have built up for 29 years, and serving the worst elements of the United States in doing so.
There is one point which I should like to deal with which has not been actually advanced in this Debate. I have read what I have not heard, and I have heard what I have not read, and I do not think it has been raised during the Debate. It has been repeatedly raised, however, as a reason or an excuse for our anti-Soviet policy, that we have to suffer in this country from a constant stream of abuse from the Press of the Soviet Union. Paper shortage alone would make it impossible for the Soviet Union to print more than 10 per cent. in volume of the abuse which the Press of this country prints against the Soviet Union; but I naturally went into this matter very closely to see whether there was any truth in the accusation. If someone tells you here that some Soviet newspapers have brought out streams of abuse of this country, it takes time to investigate it. It was easier therefore to do it when I got to the Soviet Union, and read the papers day by day—I also had the British précis. I think it is fair to say that I found no abuse at all but merely a reasonable amount of steady criticism, but it did not strike me as anything unusual. Almost every word of it was sensible, Socialist criticism of various aspects of our foreign policy, the sort I hear all day in the Lobbies of this House among a large proportion of the Left Wing Members of the Labour Party.

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I do not think that we should be so sensitive or petty minded as to excuse, or explain or make any change in our policy because the Soviet Union are doing what, after all, they have a perfect right to do, namely, to utter ordinary, political, Socialist criticism about our behaviour in Greece, our behaviour in Palestine, or our behaviour in the Mediterranean. Surely we need not be so excited that we change our policy in this country because the Soviet Union advances as a serious proposition that the Dardanelles is the only entrance to the Black Sea, and that the only people in the Black Sea who have harbours there are Turkey, Rumania, Bulgaria and the Soviet Union, and that it really is not necessary to have the United States to take part in controlling the Dardanelles. It is very much the same thing about the Danube. I cannot see why the United States should control the Danube. I have no doubt that the United States would like to control a lot of things, but surely it is not unreasonable that the Danube should be controlled merely by the riparian countries—
Major Guy Lloyd: Surely the hon. and learned Member does not suggest that the United States are demanding control of the Danube?
Mr. Pritt: They are already one of the controlling Powers of the Danube. Coming back to the question of Soviet abuse, their newspapers do not accuse us of wholesale rape, of abduction of children, or pouring rockets over Sweden which are discovered to be meteors, and then when they prove to be meteors, switch over and accuse us a week later of pouring rockets over Greece. When Mr. Molotov takes the wheel of a ship on the Atlantic every newspaper explains that the ship at once went off its course. The Soviet Union does not say that sort of thing about the right hon. Gentleman. Even with the right hon. Gentleman they confine themselves to criticising his politics. Not very long ago, in Moscow, diplomatic representatives of the United States and Great Britain thought fit to inflict a gross diplomatic insult on the Government of the Soviet Union. At a meeting of the Supreme Soviet there came a moment, after a speech by Mr. Stalin, when the assembled deputies, having heard the speech and thinking it was a very good one got up and applauded for a con-
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siderable time. Every single person in the galleries rose as a reasonable courtesy, except alone the diplomatic representatives of Great Britain and the United States. The excuse was advanced afterwards that the United States representatives had direct instructions from the State Department to do this. The fact is that it was done, but what is interesting, on the suggestion that the Soviet Press is always abusing us, is that the Soviet Press kindly passed the incident over in complete silence.
No hostility to the British people can be found in the Soviet Press which I was able to discover. I would make the comparison of how much abuse of this country is poured out daily in the Press of the United States. It is not even generally reprinted in the Press of this country, and the British Government do not alter their policy because of abuse by the Press of the United States. They might say, "Good heavens, what more can we do to please you?" but at any rate they are silent while the Press of the United States pours out hideous abuse upon us. It is sometimes said that the Soviet Press is a Government Press, and therefore the criticism it utters is more serious in weight. I agree that what the Press says there is a little more serious in weight than the Press of most other countries, but there is really no great difference between the control of the Press in that country and in this. There is of course a difference. The Press of every country is controlled by the rulers of that country. In this country—this Parliament has been elected to put a stop to the matter, and no doubt in due course they will go a long way to do it—we are still ruled by industrialists and by big money, and these run the newspapers, just as in France they used to be run by the Comité des Forges. In the Soviet Union the country is ruled by the masses of the people, and consequently so is the Press. One big newspaper belongs to the Communist Party which represents the people, and one belongs to the Government, which belongs to the people —[Laughter.] I do not know whether I like the noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) more when he makes a fool of himself by laughing, or when he makes a fool of himself by more serious interruption.
Earl Winterton: While thanking the hon. and learned Member

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for his courteous terms of reference to myself, may I tell him what I was laughing at? I was wondering whether he was the victim or the agent of Communist propaganda.
Mr. Pritt: I will answer that, although the noble Lord has as much to do with the serious life of the country as he has with China. I am a severely self-critical person. I have spent the last 20 years being criticised, not only by fools but also by intelligent persons. I have followed the activities of the Soviet Union, and of this country towards the Soviet Union, for 20 years with the greatest interest, and I think I can claim with the greatest modesty, that I have been right every time in everything that I have said about the Soviet Union, either in this House or outside I am neither an agent nor a victim of propaganda.
But what a tragedy all this is. Here is this Socialist Party, which has come here to form a Government that is not a bad one, and might have been a very good one. It has a good home policy, and a very bad foreign policy. It cannot long combine the two, of course. It could have put itself at the head of every progressive movement in every country in Europe. It could have been one of the three great Powers in the world—it is, of course, that in any case— but it could have been one of the three great Powers, showing an independent line, ganging up with nobody, but making itself the most beloved and most powerful country in Western and Central Europe, working happily with the Soviet Union and still being friends with the United States. But what is it? It is ganging up with the United States until, when the inevitable slump comes in America, it will come to us here and hit us. It is making itself hated by every progressive country in Europe. We are throwing away one of the greatest chances we have ever had, and if the Foreign Secretary does not mend his policy, or the Government do not mend him, we shall have a great tragedy.
5.13 p.m.
Brigadier Fitzroy Maclean: I want to draw attention for a few moments to a remote part of the world which has had rather less than its fair share of attention of late, namely, Korea. I have just come back from a visit to Korea, and I must say that I found the
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situation there singularly disquieting, even by present-day standards. Korea has been the occasion of at least two wars in the last half century and it is now, in my opinion, well on the way to becoming, once again, a powder magazine which the slightest spark will set off.
It was decided at the Yalta Conference that Korean independence should be restored as soon as possible. At the Moscow Conference, last year, as it appeared that the Koreans were not yet in a position to stand by themselves, it was decided to establish, for a period of five years, a four-Power trusteeship. For the purpose of implementing this, a Soviet-American Commission was established in Korea with the task of bringing into being, in consultation with the democratic parties and organisations of that country, a provisional Korean Government. Meanwhile, the Red Army had occupied Northern Korea as far as the 38th parallel, and the Americans had occupied the rest of the country. Allied troops came, not as conquerors, but as liberators, and immediately representatives of the two High Commands met in order to establish a provisional Government. The Commission, however, ran into difficulties almost immediately on a question which has given a good deal of trouble elsewhere, namely, the definition of "democracy." They were authorised, by their terms of reference, to consult only with democratic parties and organisations. The Russians immediately proceeded to exclude all parties which actively opposed the Moscow decision. As it happened, that covered, with one exception, the whole range of Korean political parties. When the Moscow-decision was announced in Korea there was an immediate and quite understandable outcry—considering that Korea had only just emerged from four years of Japanese domination—against the idea of establishing a trusteeship. They thought that the word "trusteeship" had a rather sinister ring about it, because the Japanese, I understand, had used a similar term.
All over the country very active opposition was organised, and this was led by a party which has had a good deal of experience of opposition—the Communist Party. The opponents of trusteeship made very good progress, but once opposition got under way they suddenly found

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themselves deprived of their leaders by one of those sudden inspired revelations to which Communists in every part of the world are subject. The Communists suddenly decided that instead of being 100 per cent. against trusteeship they were 100 per cent. in favour of it. Therefore, by a strange coincidence the only party which were not by the Soviet ban excluded from consultation were the Communist Party, which, on 1st January, 1946, had suddenly seen a great light, indeed, one might almost say, had felt a great heat. The Americans did not accept the Soviet definition of the word "democratic." In their view, any measure restricting the right of self-expression, as this would have done, was thoroughly undemocratic. The result was that in four or five weeks from the time the Commission first met they came to a complete deadlock, and adjourned sine die. Since then, the Russians have retired to their side of the 38th parallel, and the Americans have stayed in the South. There has been a complete iron curtain between them. The two Powers have proceeded with the process of democratisation in their own zones according to their own lights. The Americans have had very considerable trouble with the Communists in Southern Korea. The Communists have organised strikes, opposed the collection and distribution of rice, and have done their very best to upset American attempts to establish a Legislature based on a broad coalition of all parties.
On the Soviet side of parallel 38 things have been easier. The Communist Party, strangely enough, has disappeared altogether. There has appeared, on the other hand, a coalition of Left Wing parties which bears the reassuring name of "Labour Party"—a body which, incidentally, is now completely controlled by the former central executive committee of the Communist Party, risen like the Phoenix from its own ashes. Economically, the division is equally complete, and equally disquieting. All the rice is grown in South Korea, all the fertilisers are produced in North Korea; all the industries are situated in South Korea, while all the coal comes from North Korea, with the result that, economically and politically, there is a complete cleavage between the two halves of the country. The military situation is also very disquieting. The
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Americans have some 50,000 troops on their side of parallel 38—parallel 38, incidentally, was one of the things about which the Russian-Japanese war of 1905 was fought—and on the Russian side of parallel 38 there are no fewer than 250,000 troops today. Korea is thus divided into two armed camps.
I should like to ask what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take, as one of the trustees, to remedy this very disquieting situation. Under the Moscow decision of last year, it was laid down that a provisional democratic Government should be established in Korea. Nothing of the kind has been done. It was provided that Korea should be a single State. Korea is now divided into two completely distinct parts. It was laid down that the Soviet-American Commission should permanently coordinate economic and administrative affairs, but the Commission has not met once since last May, and shows no signs of meeting again.
I hope that His Majesty's Government are informed of the situation in Korea. I found, when I got there, that we had only one liaison officer, who, I have every reason to believe, is an extremely competent official. But he has no clerical or other assistants; he is completely alone, and, as far as I can see, he has no proper means of communication with His Majesty's Government. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will look into this situation, will watch it closely, and will do his best to remedy it before things go any further.
5.24 p.m.
Mr. Lyne: I would first like to offer my congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary on the factual statement which he gave to the House yesterday. I would also like to commend his speech for its great restraint, in spite of the attacks which have been made on the right hon. Gentleman's policy by some sections of the Press of this country, and many sections of the Press outside it. When one looks at the picture and compares it with the report which we had last June on the international situation, one feels that it is the duty of the House to ask what progress has been made since then. I think we can look back at that period with very small consolation. It is admitted that a

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number of the comparatively minor difficulties that faced the United Nations previously have been solved during the intervening period, and at the Paris Conference; but the major difficulties have been left for the United Nations, through the Security Council, to face at some future time.
I think that there is one factor that stands out without challenge, as a result of the Paris Conference. It has shown clearly to the world that an Eastern bloc in Europe has been established, and, during the proceedings of the Conference, has moved forward along a common policy. On the other hand, we have seen, with differences, the free, democratic nations more or less working in alignment with each other. That, I think, is a very unhealthy situation, even if avoidable. In spite of the fact that we have this complete rift between two sections of the nations, I am loth to think that the major difficulties cannot be tackled, and I hope with success. I think that we ought to realise the immense difficulties which the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary, and those representing the other nations at the Conference, were up against.
First, there is the strategic situation which is applicable to those nations in the Near East. The problem of Trieste is not a problem solely of Italy and Yugoslavia, but a problem that is affecting, and is affected by, the whole of the nations in the Danube basin, and beyond. Apart from the difficulty of dealing with the situation on a firm ethnical basis, there is the point of view of the commercial importance of the port, which is difficult of solution. To decide the matter on an ethnical basis would be to do an injustice probably to the nations who desire a free outlet of a great port to the Mediterranean.
In passing, may I say in respect of our Ally, Soviet Russia, that I think that it is well worth consideration by His Majesty's Government, and those who will be responsible for the peace treaty, whether or not Russia has a claim to an outlet to the Mediterranean? When we remember the vastness of Russia, with two of its main outlets frozen up in the winter, one outlet to the Pacific and the other through a neighbouring country, there may be some justification for the claim put forward by the Soviet Union for an outlet to the Mediterranean. After all, in the past
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nations whose borders have not touched the Mediterranean have felt that it was essential to their security that they should have bases in that sea. What we and other countries have claimed as a right cannot be disputed when the matter is dealt with from the point of view of the justification of a country wanting commercial outlets at the nearest point. Apart from the strategic considerations which the nations of the Near East are facing, one of their vital difficulties, in finding a solution to their problems, is the question of the amount of reparations which those countries should pay, and the allocation of those reparations. There are few of the defeated nations that will be in a position to pay any reparations whatever for many years to come, if they are to maintain a social standard in their own country.
I believe that the greatest problem facing the United Nations is the question of the future of Germany and Austria. Austria is in a vital position because it is the link between the East and the West, between the Soviet Union, the Danubian States, Yugoslavia and the Mediterranean. I believe that the future of Germany is of more importance because the same essential difficulty which has prevented a settlement of the major issues at the Paris Conference is preventing the members of the Quadripartite Commission from establishing a single economic unit in Germany. I believe that the abolition of zonal conditions in Germany is essential if the future of Europe is to be secured. The abolition of zonal frontiers would have tremendous repercussions on the whole of the international situation and the international difficulties existing today. It is interesting to note the following statement that was made by Mr. Molotov in Paris in July last:
"The time has come when we should discuss the fate of Germany and the peace treaty with that country. The Soviet Government has always held that the spirit of revenge is a poor counsellor in such affairs. It would be equally incorrect to identify Hitler Germany with the German people, although the German people cannot divest themselves of the responsibility for Germany's aggression, and for its grave consequences."
In a speech dealing with the future of Germany, Mr. Molotov went on to say:
"While still engaged in the war, the Allies declared that they had no intention of destroying the German people. Even at that time when Hitler, with overweening presumption, openly proclaimed that he wanted to destroy Russia, Stalin, head of the Socialist Govern-

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ment, ridiculing these boastful stupidities, said, 'It is no more possible to destroy Germany than it is to dastroy Russia, but the Hitler State cart and must be destroyed.'"
Reading that statement, one wonders what is the obstacle to the creation in Germany of a single economic unit. The sting was in the tail of Mr. Molotov's speech. The attitude of the Soviet Union is that the clauses of the Potsdam Agreement should be carried out in Germany, as for as concerns reparations and the supply of the surplus produce of one zone to another, before Germany becomes a single unit in an economic sense. I claim that it is a sheer impossibility to carry out the terms of the Potsdam Agreement until Germany becomes a single economic unit. I hope the Government will press this position to the utmost when the opportunity occurs at the United Nations Assembly in New York.
I had an opportunity, in July, of visiting Germany, and I was convinced, as have been all hon. Members who have visited Germany, that unless the primary producing part of the country can become part of the general economic scheme in Germany, the possibilities of reconstruction in the West will be simply hopeless, because of the lack of food which should be coming from the zone controlled by Russia. On the other hand, the Soviet Union take the view that for any food which is transferred from the Russian zone to the British and American zones, the surplus manufactured products of the Western zones should be paid into the Russian zone in return. The most vital requirement in the American, French and British zones is sufficient food in order to enable the people to get the industries of the country running again. Until they are in a position to be able to produce their own requirements, it will be utterly impossible for them to be able to pay for food imported from the Russian zone, or from abroad. I have been struck by the folly of the Potsdam Agreement and the Yalta Agreement in their effects up to the present.
I think we can all agree that Germany's economic resources must be so restricted that it will be impossible in the future for her to build up an aggressive force for use against any nation in the world. But the wholesale destruction that has taken place—not only that wreaked by our own bombers on the
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great cities and ports of Germany, but that which has been carried out under the Potsdam Agreement—proves this, in my opinion, a fallacious method of attempting to restrict German aggression in the future. We have the invidious situation in the Schleswig-Holstein Province of the destruction of practically the whole of the dockyards in North-West Germany, upon which at least seven million people depended for their existence, and of not being able to introduce any industries in that area to take the place of the ones destroyed. I believe, as I have said, that the international problems and difficulties we are facing are capable of solution if we can find that solution through the Quadripartite Commission, and whether it is carried out by them or by the Foreign Secretaries of the four responsible Powers. Once that solution is found the other matters affecting the surrounding nations in Europe and elsewhere would be simplified. I ask the House to bear in mind that what we do today determines the future not only of this country but of the world, and that it may have tremendous repercussions on history.
There is another point which, I believe, should be brought out on every conceivable occasion. It is that throughout the world during the last seven years' there has been a complete revulsion of the common people against the inequalities and injustices that existed before the war, and a nobler conception of the duties and endeavours of the future. I think it is well to remember that in our dealings round the peace conference table. The great movement represented on this side of the House owes its present strength to the ethical foundations upon which it was based in the brotherhood of man, and if we can carry on those conceptions and show to the world that we are applying them in the attempt to find a solution to the world difficulties we are facing, I am perfectly satisfied that, in the end, the results will justify the confidence that we have in the ultimate goodness of the peoples of the world.
Finally, I should like to refer to a point which has not yet been mentioned in this Debate One of the greatest possible helps that this world can have has come into being during the last few years—the World Trade Union Federation. I believe that, side by side with the responsible Ministers of the various countries, in their endeavours to solve the problems

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with which the world is confronted, this great federation of world trade unions can play an important and vital part. We realise that if the workers of the world can be drawn together to discuss the difficulties with which they are confronted from day to day, then the international difficulties between nation and nation will be far more easy to solve and the foundation upon which we shall be building will be firm and will stand us in good stead in the future.
5.45 p.m.
Mr. Gammans: I believe I have the pleasing responsibility of congratulating the hon. Member for Burton (Mr. Lyne) on his maiden speech. I am sure that all hon. Members who remember their own maiden speeches will envy him his fluency and will also admire his courage in taking part in a discussion on so difficult a subject as foreign affairs on the second day of the Debate. I think that we shall all agree that he has made a most useful contribution to the subject. I would be largely in agreement with what he had to say on the subject of Potsdam because, like himself, I have had the opportunity of going to Germany and I came back with the very firm conviction that unless the Potsdam Agreement is implemented in the spirit and the letter in which it was drawn up there is no hope for the future economic welfare of the German people, and certainly of the people in our own zone in Western Germany.
Yesterday the Foreign Secretary gave us a very comprehensive survey of our foreign policy, and I think it is a striking proof of the complexity of the modern world that this survey had to range from Korea to Syria and from Australia to South America. I was especially glad when the right hon. Gentleman referred to events in the Far East, and I sincerely hope that before long we may have the opportunity in this House of a Debate on foreign affairs which is restricted to the Far East because it is natural, as we have seen in the present Debate up to now, that most hon. Members concentrate on affairs in Europe. There was only one omission in the Foreign Secretary's reference to the Far East, and I am wondering whether the Minister of State, who I believe is to reply, can pay some attention to it. It concerns Siam. We have a long and intimate relationship
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with the people of that country and the economic structure of our Far Eastern dependencies is bound up with Siamese rice. I should like to know what is happening in Siam and, even more, what is happening to the rice.
There is only one point which I want to make this afternoon. Yesterday the Foreign Secretary complained—I think quite rightly—of the propaganda which is raging against Great Britain in many parts of the world, and the misunderstanding which appears to have arisen with regard to our motives. Some of this propaganda is, of course, sheer malice, but I am convinced that some of it comes from a genuine misunderstanding of the principles upon which our foreign policy is based. I feel that if the Government are to receive the support not only of the people in this country, but of other democratic countries throughout the world, those principles should be clearly and continuously enunciated.
Foreign policy is not a game, nor is it an academic question, and I am one of those who believe that it is not an ideological question, as some hon. Members opposite suggested yesterday. If we are to go round the world seeking to destroy regimes which we regard as non-democratic, then we shall be at loggerheads, and soon at war, with about nine-tenths of the world, from China to Yugoslavia and from Russia to the Argentine. Foreign policy is in fact a method of protecting our own interests and saving our own people from the threat of another war, and it is against that criterion that the foreign policy of any Government has to be measured. Is it possible for us to define the principles of our foreign policy in a way which other countries would understand and, we hope, appreciate? I think there are three basic principles which must always underlie our foreign policy. The first is that if there is a United Nations organisation throughout the world, we must be unreservedly in it and be prepared to support it with all the forces at our command. We do that not only because we are pledged to the ethical principle of international cooperation, not only because, as a Christian country, we believe in the ultimate triumph of might over right, but for the more practical reason—
Hon. Members: Right over might.
Wing-Commander Millington: The hon. Member said "might over right."
Mr. Gammans: I am very much obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for correcting me. It is, of course, right over might. But for the most practical reason of all, that of all the countries in the world which need a United Nations organisation, we need it the most because we are easily the most vulnerable country in the world today. I wonder whether men of my age and older realise how the security of this island has deteriorated in our lifetime. Forty years ago we could afford to isolate ourselves very largely from the events on the Continent. We were protected by the Royal Navy and the English Channel. However great might be our follies in disarming between wars, we always knew that someone else would take the first knock. In the last war the English Channel was at the best a tank trap. It certainly was not a doodle-bug or rocket trap, and now in this atomic age we go to bed every night with the rather miserable thought that about a couple of dozen well placed atomic bombs could wipe us out as a great people. We could literally cease to exist as a nation between breakfast and lunch time.
This is what worries me. If we study the history of Europe during the past three or four centuries, we find that five times at least it has been this country alone which has stood between some potential aggressor and his ambition to dominate the world. Philip of Spain, Louis XIV, Napoleon, the Kaiser, and Hitler came to grief on the cliffs of Dover and in the gray waters of the English Channel, but any future aggressor who aims at dominating the world knows that he has only to knock out this country— and he could knock it out now at a single blow—and the whole of the British Empire would fall like a ripe plum into his lap, and the central structure of world security would disappear overnight. That is the world in which we are, unfortunately, living today, a world which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the years when I and many other hon. Members were born.
If the first basis of our principles of foreign policy is loyalty to U.N.O., we had better ask ourselves how far U.N.O.
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has got. On the credit side we have the great advantage, as compared with the League of Nations, that Russia and the United States are in it from the beginning. What about the debit side? I cannot do better than quote the words of Field-Marshal Smuts, which many hon. Members heard over the radio a couple of weeks ago. This is what he said:
"Nobody who watches the proceedings of the Security Council with its arbitrary use of the veto, the propaganda nature of its debates and the unsettling effect on public opinion, can feel much confidence in the Council as a guardian of future peace."
If we are honest and realistic with ourselves, that summarises very fairly the achievements of U.N.O. to date.
We know the main reason—that the failure of U.N.O. very largely revolves round the attitude of Russia, and the great question mark that hangs over human society today is, What is the real meaning of the Russian attitude? It is undeniable that Russia has blocked every attempt at international cooperation, whether in San Francisco, New York or Paris. Furthermore, today the Russians control the destinies of over 100 million non-Russian people in Eastern Europe. What does it mean? Is this just the bargaining method of a secretive and suspicious people with an Asiatic mentality, or is there something more sinister underlying it? Recently Stalin made a speech in which he proclaimed his peaceful intentions towards the world. It will take more than one speech of Stalin's to destroy the gloom and uncertainty which rest over the world. The sincerity of that speech must be shown by action. What action would we like to see? First of all, is Russia prepared to modify her attitude towards the veto power? Is she prepared seriously to consider the suggestion made by the United States over the control of atomic energy? Will she join the international efforts of the Joint Food and Agriculture Board? Will she call off the campaign of abuse and slander against this country? Will Mr. Molotov say "Yes" just for once?
If our loyalty to U.N.O. is the first principle in our foreign policy, what should be our second? We ought not to rely on U.N.O. alone, nor is it within the spirit of the Charter of U.N.O. that we should rely on U.N.O. alone. Surely the second principle in our foreign policy is that we should try to speak in the councils of the world not merely with the voice

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of the United Kingdom, but with the voice of the British Empire as a whole. We are a great Imperial Power or we are nothing at all. We could never be a second-class Power. We are either a first-class Power or a lonely, friendless island in the North Sea. I am very glad to see hon. Gentle-men opposite realising that today the British Empire is nothing of which to be ashamed. We get vague hints from time to time of an Imperial Defence policy. I would like to ask these specific questions. Can we have those vague hints translated into something definite? Have any agreements been reached whatever with the Dominions? What about the dispersal of vital industries throughout the Empire, about which we have had some hints? Has anything been done about the recruitment of an Army from the Colonial Empire, remembering that in our future commitments we may no longer be able to rely on the assistance of the Indian Army? I hope that sometime, if not today, we may have more details on those points.
What is the third and last principle of our foreign policy? It should surely be that we should try to save what remains of Western Europe and to integrate within the framework of U.N.O. some Western European regional organisation. Lately we have had two very powerful speeches advocating a United States of Europe, one from my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and one from Field-Marshal Smuts. In the last few days we have had the Berlin elections. I read from the results of the Berlin elections that the Germans, in spite of Russian pressure and intimidation, still think of themselves as Europeans and still look to the West and not to the East. It is a green light for His Majesty's Government to go ahead in trying to get some Western European federation. Is that their object? Is that their policy? Is it realised that we shall never get European federation without British leadership, and, what is more, that the whole of Europe is looking for that leadership?
I have two things to say in conclusion. The first is that we must cease to talk of ourselves as a second-class Power. If we marshal our Empire resources and if, above all, we are given the right leadership, we can still regard ourselves as a first-class Power, whether we reckon it in raw materials, industrial capacity or manpower. Nothing is more despicable, and nothing to any foreigner is more incom-
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prehensible than that, with our record, we should go creeping round the world with an inferiority complex. The second thing of which I am absolutely convinced is that if this country is to exercise any influence in the world at all, it must stand for principle and not expediency in international affairs. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am very glad that hon. Gentlemen agree with me.
Mr. Orbach: Whose principle?
Mr. Gammans: There is only one hope for mankind, and that is not a paper charter but a restoration of moral values throughout the world, and the restoration of the pledged word in international affairs. When we are considering making peace, can we be satisfied with the principles under which peace is being made at the present time? I know that in the last 20 years it has been the fashion to deride the Treaty of Versailles, very largely as the result of clever German propaganda, but that Treaty is a veritable Sermon on the Mount compared with some of the things that are going on today. The Treaty of Versailles was at least based on the principle of serf-determination, and every effort was made to draw frontiers according to ethnic considerations. Can we rest content with what is going on in Eastern Europe today? The three Baltic Republics were submerged merely on the ground that it is necessary to Russian security. If that argument can be used for the submergence of Lithuania, Latvia and Esthonia, we could use equally strongly that argument for invading Southern Ireland and Iceland.
Mr. Orbach: Who has invaded Iceland?
Mr. Gammans: Can we rest content, on moral grounds, with the moving of the Polish frontier miles into Germany, and the deportation of millions of Germans from one part of Germany to the other? I do not know whether the hon. Member for Burton when he was in Germany saw the arrival there every day of 12 trains of these hapless people from Eastern Germany? There were no young or middle-aged men among them, they had been shipped off to Russia. They were old men, women and children, torn up from their homes and dumped into our zone without food and without houses. Can we say that that is making peace on any question of principle? Can anyone

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defend on moral grounds the deportation of Germans to Czechoslovakia? It is no good our talking about a democratic Government arising in Germany. No Government in Germany, democratic or otherwise, could hold office for five minutes if they did not protest against the taking away of lands which for hundreds of years have been German.
Mr. Julius Silverman: Does the hon. Member mean Czechoslovakia?
Mr. Gammans: Can anyone defend, except on political grounds, the trial and imprisonment of Archbishop Stepinac, and other things which are happening in Yugoslavia? No peace can come from such events; they bear within themselves the seed of a third world war. Right is right and wrong is wrong, whether it comes from an Ally, a neutral or an enemy country. May I remind some of the hon. Gentlemen who spoke yesterday that there cannot be one test of freedom for Spain and one for Yugoslavia?
Mr. Orbach: Why not apply it?
Mr. Gammans: There cannot be one criterion for democracy for Greece and another one for Hungary. If we are to give a lead to the world, if we are to see the path clearly for ourselves, we must take off our coloured spectacles of any tint.
I believe that if the Foreign Secretary will proclaim the principles of our foreign policy with vigour and conviction, if he will take the trouble to explain to the world the principles on which that policy is based, and if he will always act on moral principles and not on expediency, he may or may not receive the approbation of some of his own back benchers, but he will certainly receive the support not only of the party on this side of the House, but, I believe, also of the whole country and, in time, of the whole civilised world.
6.5 p.m.
Mr. Zilliacus: I confess to a feeling of unreality in listening to this Debate, and in reading the discussions in the Press about the so-called ideological conflict between East and West. The nearest that anyone has come to putting his finger on the real issue—only to take it away again quickly—was Field-Marshal
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Smuts, and since it seems to be popular to quote him, perhaps I may follow the example of the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Gammans). On 7th October, Field-Marshal Smuts said:
"I wish the veto could be imposed on the ideologies and the world just be allowed to settle down to its real business. For in what is really wanted we are all agreed. People want to be fed and housed and clothed, to be secured against unemployment and sickness and all the other miseries of our daily life— to be secured against these fears and against the fear of war. In all this there is no east or west, and no ideologies. There is just simple stark humanity."
The Prime Minister this afternoon, quoting the Foreign Secretary, said that our real trouble was the economic disorganisation resulting from the war. I heard that after the first world war, when it was assumed that the only thing wrong with the world was the economic dis-organisation resulting from the war, and reconstruction was based on the assumption that we could go back to the prewar economic system. The right hon. Gentleman the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter), who was at that time Director of the Economic and Financial Section of the League Secretariat, wrote very pungently on that point, and explained in detail that the whole reconstruction effort had gone wrong because it overlooked the fact that it was the very economic and social foundations of our society which had to be rebuilt. If that was true after the first world war, it is a thousand times more true today. The whole point about this ideological conflict is that it is concerned with how people are to get food and houses and be secured against unemployment and against war. We on these benches won the General Election because we told the people of England that these things could only be done by going forward toward Socialism. It is a remarkable fact that in every Debate on foreign affairs in this House our Front Bench has never mentioned the word "Socialism," except this afternoon, when the Prime Minister said that our policy was democratic Socialism. I suppose it is exemplified in Greece?
The issue we have to face is the fact of the social revolution in the world, and what we are going to do about it; what our attitude is towards it. On our decision on that issue, depends whether there will be peace between us and the

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Soviet Union, or whether there is to be a third world war. When I speak of the social revolution, I am referring to the same fact as that which was mentioned, in somewhat different words, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), in the coal Debate on 20th May. He used words then which impressed me so much, that I still remember them by heart. He said:
"The problem of the 20th century is how to create an economic democracy parallel with the political democracy that has come to its full estate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th May, 1946; Vol. 423, c. 133.]
I believe that is a profoundly true observation. But I think the right hon. Gentleman himself would agree that, in the form in which he has put the issue, it applies only to the old established democracies in Western Europe, to the British Commonwealth and to the United States. In the rest of the world the situation is different. I will leave out Asia because there the issue is complicated by the struggle for national independence and equality of status, and I will deal only with Europe because in Europe we have a special responsibility under the Atlantic Charter and under the Teheran and Potsdam Agreements.
The responsibility under the Atlantic Charter was interpreted by the then Prime Minister, now Leader of the Opposition, on 24th May, 1944, and by the then Minister of State of the Labour Government on 19th December, 1945. According to those interpretations, the Atlantic Charter means that we are to help the ex-enemy peoples to establish democratic forms of government, and allow them to choose any democratic form of government they want. But we are to prevent them restoring any form of Fascist rule. The Teheran agreement binds us to help the liberated peoples, who are our Allies, to get rid of the remains of Fascism in their countries, and to establish a democratic form of rule.
How are we to apply those obligations in the Europe of today? In the Europe of today there is something quite new and unprecedented going on. It is an attempt to establish both economic and political democracy simultaneously, as one combined operation. Nothing like that has ever been done before. There are no precedents for it, and it is not surprising that it is a little puzzling to observers
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from this country who, very naturally, tend to look at everything through the spectacles of our own country and our own conditions. I do not think we realise what a very extraordinary and miraculous thing our democratic system and democratic way of life is. It is so ingrained in the blood, and bones, and traditions, of the people of this country, that it is generally assumed now to be part of the order of nature. It is not. It is the result of a very long history, of restraint and commonsense, and of faith in each other's fundamental honesty and good will. These are precious things which do not come of themselves, and cannot be exported, but are the result of a very long evolution.
In Europe things are happening of a very different kind because the background is very different. The only way in which I can give an idea of the difference, perhaps, is by telling the House the story of the Balkan partisan who, when he heard that Labour had won the General Election, said: "Oh, then I suppose the Conservative Party have taken to the hills." How was that rude and unlettered Balkan partisan to know that in our sophisticated democracy, when the Conservative Party is beaten at the polls, all that happens is that its leaders take to the City?
We do not know, because we are used to it, what very strong medicine free elections are. To try to apply that system to people who have gone through years and years of a debilitating system of Fascism, or who have never grown up to democracy, is like giving whisky to a child, or to a patient in a hospital. An American statesman once remarked that the United States in every Presidential election has a sublimated civil war every four years. I know of a case where even a football match between two South American republics caused a rupture in diplomatic relations, and a headache in Geneva. These things put a great strain on the solidarity of communities which are not used to our advanced democracy. As Lord Balfour said:
"Democracy can exist only in a community where everyone is agreed on fundamentals."
The whole point about countries in Europe who have emerged after being overrun by Fascism and dictated to by their own Fascists and quislings, is that

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in those countries, there has been a revolution. Fascism is capitalist counterrevolution, and was supported by leading men of the propertied class, the big bankers, big businessmen, and big landowners. Part of the population of those countries went over completely to the Fascists and, as a result, the overthrow of the Fascist régimes meant that the resistance movements, which were based in great part, on the working class and peasantry took over the derelict industries and estates from the big bankers, businessmen and landowners, who had fled after having associated themselves with Fascism. What are they to do in those countries with the people who worked with the enemy, and shot, tortured, and gaoled their own countrymen? They cannot include them in their democracy, because they do not agree on fundamentals. Therefore, these régimes must be coalitions to start with, of those who support the revolution against those who oppose it.
That is what is happening in a large part of Europe today. The disappearance of the landowning and big business classes has meant the rise to the surface of the peasants and working class. The great problem of those countries is how to help those people to come together, and not allow them to fall apart. The way to do that, is through the co-operatives and trade unions. The political dynamo is some kind of political coalition, either of Socialists and Communists, or of Communists alone in nearly all those countries. The supporters of these régimes argue for maintaining a coalition by pointing to the fact that during the war we put off the Election for five years, and that at the end of the war the Conservative Party put forward strong arguments for continuing it here in the difficult circumstances of post-war reconstruction. These people do not understand why the Conservative Party, who are such strong believers in national unity in our country, are so bent upon making them return to party politics, when their problems are incomparably more difficult. Part of their population is still 100 per cent. against the new régimes.
I want to emphasise the fact that throughout Europe today the trade unions and working classes are playing a far greater part in reconstruction than
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they have ever played, and in the trade unions the Communist parties, or Communists and Socialists together, are playing the leading part. In every country in Europe today the trade unions are stronger than they have ever been. In France the Confédération Générate du Travail is over 6 million strong, greater than it has ever been. It has taken a key part in the reconstruction of France after the war, such a powerful part that the Paris correspondents of "The Times," "New York Times" and "Herald Tribune" have testified that it is impossible to reconstruct France without the trade unions and the Communist Party, which is almost in complete control of the French trade unions. The Paris correspondent of "The Economist" on 17th August, wrote:
"The facts suggest that the French unions are Communist today because the working man has learnt by hard experience to identify Communist leadership with his own betterment. This development is vital to understanding what is now happening in France."
The French Communists had five million votes at the last election and have 10 Ministers in the Government. They were only two per cent. behind the M.R.P. last time and may be the strongest party at the next Election. I could go through the whole of Europe, country by country, and come to the same conclusion that the working class, through the trade unions, is playing a key part in reconstruction, and that Communist Parties, or as in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Rumania and Bulgaria, Communist Parties in conjunction with Socialist Parties, are playing a crucial part in reconstruction. The same applies to the Soviet zone in Germany.
In those areas Socialist reconstruction is on the basis of about 80 per cent. nationalisation of industry, a further large cooperative section of industry and trade, and then a sector of private enterprise for light industry, handicraft and petty trading. Those societies are heading for some new social order, and have enlisted the enthusiasm and cooperation of the working class and the peasants, who have now got the land. The amount of political democracy and civil liberty varies very greatly, according to the degree of political democracy that had been attained by those countries before the war, Czechoslovakia being top of the list in that respect, and according to the amount of

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suffering they endured during the war, and how severely they were oppressed under some kind of Quisling régime.
Contrast that with what is happening in parts of Europe over which Britain and America have direct responsibility. In Italy there are over two million unemployed. The first thing which the Allied High Command did when they landed in Italy was to apply the rule of "no politics," which meant, in fact, that the Fascists having been overthrown by our victory, the Left were not allowed to take charge. In Northern Italy, where the workers had taken charge and thrown out the Fascist bosses from the factories and got down to it, the Fascist bosses were restored and the factory committees dissolved. In all the other countries I have mentioned trades unions and factory committees are playing a leading part in the actual running of the factories and in actually determining the condition of the workers. In Italy we allowed the Uomo Qualunque party, a neo-Fascist party, to be formed in spite of our pledge not to allow any restoration of Fascism, and Italy is in such a state today that there may be civil war in that country. The Socialist Party is breaking up. Part of it is being pulled by the solicitations of the Allies to line up with the Catholics, others believe that the only hope of salvation lies in alliance with the Communists.
We have heard about the deplorable conditions in the British zone in Germany. I had intended to quote the same passage from the "Observer" which an hon. Gentleman opposite quoted yesterday. I will forbear to do so, but I will draw attention to the resolution of the German Social Democratic Party. The German Social Democrats, in the midst of their election campaign, found the situation so serious as to find it necessary to pass a resolution protesting that they would not cooperate any further with the occupation Forces unless there was a radical change of policy.
The "Manchester Guardian" Cologne correspondent on 27th September said that the reasons why the Social Democratic Party found it necessary to hold such a conference in the middle of an election campaign were twofold:
"1. The party leaders' realisation that the continuing social and economic deterioration in Germany is reaching such proportions that the credit of any party cooperating in the regional or local government is threatened. 2. The
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course taken by the negotiations for the economic fusion of the British and American zones…."
Delegate after delegate spoke at the meeting of the pitiable condition of the people, the stagnation in industry, the apathy produced by continued hunger.
The resolution stated that:
"Germany is threatened with the most frightful disaster…. In politics, economics and administration the same forces are in control which brought us to our present pass. In the unification of the British and American zones all the central offices have been handed over to representatives of the capitalist viewpoint."
An article in the "Scotsman" of 19th October from their special correspondent, just returned from our zone, said that there was great bitterness about the working of the electoral system. I asked a Question the other day about that system and received an answer which did not satisfy me. I note that these new elections instead of producing a fair result have produced a result in which the Social Democrats, who had 150,000 votes more than the Catholic Democrats, got 1,000 fewer seats than the Catholic Democrats. This was the result of an electoral system against which the leaders of all the German parties protested vehemently and persistently to the British occupation authorities. This correspondent's article comments:
"That a party with the strongest vote should appear to get far less actual influence on the newly elected municipal bodies than its weaker rival must seem in German eyes to contradict the idea that democratic institutions reflected the will of the people."
The article continues:
"Feeling against the British Occupation authorities is very strong and very bitter, but hatred of Russia is even stronger and more bitter, so that as one prominent German leader said, The British here live entirely on the follies and mistakes committed by the Russians."
The only catch about that state of affairs is that the Russians started with the great handicap of the Goebbels terror propaganda against them, further aggravated by the bad behaviour of Russian troops in the first few days or weeks of occupation. It we are to rely upon that, and the Russians as well as I have seen them doing it in their zone, I think there will be a change in the situation.
Against these facts, much as I welcome the Foreign Secretary's announcement

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that we propose to socialise heavy industry in our zone, I would like to be certain what it means and what is to happen. I was told in Germany on high British official authority that we are to introduce land reform and that a maximum of 150 hectares was to be possessed by one person. That is about 375 acres. A land reform which allows people to have 375 acres is not my idea of land reform. It is creating a new type of middle sized landed gentry. Can the good intentions of the Foreign Secretary survive his utter dependence on the policy of the United States? The Americans in their zone are rapidly letting American business men buy up the industries in that zone and run them on American credits. The raw materials are being supplied, and the manufactured goods being worked up for export in the American zone of Germany. There is a grave danger that whatever our intentions may be we shall find that in view of the fusion of the two zones, and because of the complete dependence of this country in world affairs on the United States today we shall not be able to carry our policy into effect.
Let me enumerate a few facts which show how complete is our dependence on the United States. First there is the issue of the Danube. The Foreign Secretary made a speech in this House on 5th June, on the occasion of the last foreign affairs Debate, and he made another statement yesterday, in both of which he put the issue of the Danube as though it was concerned wholly with the navigation of the Danube, and as though the only people obstructing the matter were the Russians. In his speech last June he added a peroration full of pathos about the wickedness of the Russians in playing power politics on the hungry bellies of the people. But that account left out two facts of considerable importance. The first is that the Americans have pinched most of the river barges of the Danube, which belong to the Danubian States, including our Allies Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, who are our Allies. When some of us were in Yugoslavia last November we heard bitter complaints, not only from Yugoslavs but from U.N.R.R.A., who said that the confiscation of those barges was holding up supplies and causing difficulties. If anybody is playing power politics on the bellies of the people
1720
it is the Americans. Again, what was left out of the Foreign Secretary's statement is that the issue is not concerned solely with navigation of the Danube. The Americans have made it clear in every statement on the subject, both at the Paris Conference and in the Press, that the issue to them is free trade and non-discrimination throughout the Danube area. They are fighting that as a joint issue with the navigation of the Danube. What that means is brought out pretty clearly in a despatch to "The Times" on 13th September, from its Paris correspondent, which says:
"In the European Economic Commission this morning, a debate arose over the status to be granted to foreign business interests in Rumania; and from that starting point it developed into an argument between free enterprise and State control. In opposing the British proposal to grant foreign interests the same advantages as they enjoyed before the war, the Russian delegation have been led step by step to an almost open attack on the capitalist system and the defence of controlled economy."
One sees what terrible fellows these Russians are.
"The British, in resisting this attack, found themselves arguing the case of liberalism and free competition. It was clear that the United States and the British delegates were talking the same language. Between them and the Russian group the gap remains unbridged."
"The Times," of 12th October, in a leading article, spoke of the insistence of what was called the spokesmen of the United States and our Foreign Secretary upon free entry into the Danube Valley and Eastern Europe for the goods and capital of the Western countries. It said that the Russians were resisting this because they were afraid that the consequence of these policies in the impoverished European countries might be
"their domination as economic colonies by the immense and unmatched wealth and productive power of the United States."
So here we have the Labour Government openly and directly supporting an offensive of American big business against the Socialist economies of Eastern Europe.
Take the case of the Dardanelles. The history of our free entry into the Dardanelles goes right back into the nineteenth century when we commanded the sea and were very anxious to keep that channel open in the case of a war with Russia. It was the Crimean War policy. Today, of course, things have

1721
changed a little—that is, the world has changed, not the Foreign Office tradition. We are repeating this earlier action, but this time, please note, as the "stooges" of American imperialism. Some time ago Walter Lippmann, who is one of the most intelligent publicists in the States— he used to be a Liberal and he is now something between a power politician and a war criminal—wrote very frankly about the fact that the United States were quite ready to come into the Mediterranean and the Middle East and help us to restore the balance of power, but she would do so on her own terms. She wanted to become a Mediterranean Power in her own right. On this issue of the Dardanelles, Walter Lippmann wrote another article on 12th September in the "New York Herald Tribune." He said:
"Early last winter the United States Government made the momentous decision to take the leading part in repelling the expansion of the Soviet Empire. As a result, we are now engaged in a world wide diplomatic struggle of the utmost gravity. We must realise that it cannot be won and that it may lead to a catastrophic war unless the diplomatic campaign is planned on a correct appraisal of what it is essential to accomplish and of the power and influence we can muster in order to accomplish it…. The direct American policy would be to build up American power at a selected point where, if war comes, the Soviet Union would from the outset be on the defensive. That point is manifestly in the Eastern Mediterranean in the direction of the Black Sea. For at that point American sea and air power can be brought within reach of the vital centres of Russia, and can, therefore, most surely counteract the striking power of the Red Army."
That is the reality of this battering at the gates of the Dardanelles by the British and the Americans, and I say that on that issue I am entirely on the side of the Russians. It is very big of Uncle Sam to come all the way across the world to stop Russian expansion at the very frontiers of the Soviet Union. But what about American expansion? Where are the Americans? They have naval and air bases all over the world. They have settled down in Iceland and extorted an air base from the Icelanders who submitted under pressure of the American military occupation. The Americans were assisted by the subservient British Government, who sent Notes to the Icelanders urging them to give in to the Americans lest the Americans should not like their attitude. That is what is happening.
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Henry Wallace has, himself, denounced the danger of the warmongers in the United States. President Truman has just "chucked his hand in" after a bitter right with the American profiteers and enemies of the people whom he denounced when surrendering to them and taking all controls off meat. All controls are off American foreign policy as well. The United States is now blundering about the world like a hermit crab that has cast its shell and is looking for a bigger one.
We very often prepare for peace on the basis of the last peace. Today people who are worrying about American isolationism are hopelessly out of date. It is true the Americans helped us to lose the last peace by isolation. But if we lose the next peace it will be not from American isolationism but from American imperialism. I do not intend to go into the question of the Middle East except to say that there too our whole policy is a strategic policy which is based purely on military considerations. It has nothing whatever to do with the welfare of the people. It is all bound up with the attempt to combine the strategy of the Crimean war with the politics of Kipling. That is an anachronism beyond our strength, and it makes no sense in the world of 1946. In Greece, again, we have the contrast between the smooth words of the Foreign Secretary and ugly realities. There I could quote what the same American paper has said about it, but I will not do that because I have too much to say.
To take the case of Poland, there have been a lot of things said about that country which, I think, require an answer. Anders's army is not Poland and it does not consist by any means wholly of people who fought on our side, because that army doubled its numbers after the armistice in Italy. The only authority we have for interfering in Polish affairs is the Teheran Agreement and the subsequent Potsdam Agreement. Those were tripartite agreements between America, Russia and ourselves. I stressed this point on Friday and I got a very unsatisfactory and lame reply from the Government. It is a principle of international law, that unless an international agreement specifies that it could be interpreted and applied by only some of its signatories, all the signatories must agree to apply it jointly. One or two of them cannot rightfully do so unilaterally.

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That means we have no legal right whatever, unless we secure the assent of the Soviet Union as well as the United States, to make representations to Poland on this matter. I do not really see that we have any moral right either, if we remember the situation that exists in Greece.
What happened was that the United States sent a Note asking the Soviet Union and ourselves whether we would protest to Poland. The Soviet Union refused and we, of course, obliged, as usual. The United States emphasised what they wanted to do to Poland by holding up the money which they proposed to lend to them. We did not have any money to lend to Poland, but our resourceful Foreign Secretary found a way by pinching the Polish Government's money, which we promised to return, but now said we would not return unless they pleased us about the elections. We have no legal right to interfere in the matter. The situation in Poland is really very serious. On Friday the Under-Secretary, replying for the Government, chose to identify Mikolajczyk's Peasant Party with the Labour Party. He said they stood for practically the same thing. The whole trouble about Mikolajczyk's Party is that its right wing has been heavily infiltrated by members of the Fascist underground. More than a hundred of the captured members of Fascist bands have been found to be members of his party. On 27th September a long list was published of the number of people captured and the amount of the casualties, and it was stated there were nearly 7,000 Poles who had been "bumped off" by the bands in the Fascist underground.
The conclusion is that we must adopt a social engineering rather than a Gallup Poll view of how to make democracy in Europe work again, and how to discharge our responsibilities under the Teheran Agreement and under the Atlantic Charter, as interpreted by this Government and by the previous one. We cannot separate the revival or the establishment of political democracy from the process of Socialist reconstruction. That ought to hold no terrors for the Labour Party. After all, our own policy demands that we should make Socialism the basis of international reconstruction in Europe. This policy, called The International Post-War Settlement, framed by the National Executive and adopted by the annual conference in
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December, 1944, states that Socialism is a fundamental necessity for getting rid of the causes of war, for extirpating Fascism, for successful economic reconstruction and for restoring democracy. I would like to ask the Government whether the main lines and principles of this statement of foreign policy still hold good. I asked the Foreign Secretary that question at the Bournemouth Conference during the five minutes which were allotted to me, but in the 70 minutes which he took to reply, he did not find time to give an answer on that point. I wish he would put that card on the table. Does this document, the Post-War International Settlement, in its main lines and fundamental principles, represent the Labour Party's foreign policy?
When the late Mr. Arthur Henderson became Foreign Secretary in the second Labour Government, the first thing he did was to call his officials together and to put into their hands the text of the foreign policy of the Labour Party. He told them to read it because that was now the Government's foreign policy. I would like to know whether anything like that has been done this time. I can answer that question at once by saying that it has not been done and that in point of fact we have not got a foreign policy. All we have got is the tradition of the Foreign Office. The Labour Government are riding on that tradition as a kind of collective Lady Godiva, singing some little ditty about their democratic Socialist foreign policy which is invisible and imaginary. Nobody, at home or abroad, has seen any Socialism in it. If we did have a Socialist foreign policy, I do not imagine that hon. Members opposite would be quite so fond of it. I am not a Vansittartist about the hon. Members opposite. I do not want to see scenes of disorder, violence and carnage when our Front Bench set about the other Front Bench in foreign affairs Debates. But I am getting heartily tired of the amount of fraternisation which is carried on. I see no reason why in every foreign affairs Debate our Foreign Secretary should enter the arena in the spirit of Ferdinand the Bull, while hon. Members opposite bring him flowers in the guise of "Tory adorers."
What I do ask the Government is whether this document, the International Postwar Settlement, is their foreign policy. Do they pay any attention to it and take any responsibility for it? I ask them that question, not only in my

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own name but in the name of my electors, who returned me to this House. I fought my campaign as much on foreign affairs as on home affairs. I did not say that, if a Labour Government was returned, they would have their own home policy, but that in foreign affairs they would have a black market under-the-counter coalition with the Tories. I fought my campaign, not only in my own constituency, but in all the surrounding constituencies—[Laughter.] I was asked to do that, and I did it. What I said then is what I am saying now and what I have been saying all the time. This is what I said in my election address, which was approved by Transport House as being in entire conformity with the Labour Party's policy:
"Only a British Government friendly to Socialism can join effectively in making peace in Europe. Throughout Europe, the overthrow of Fascism has meant the downfall of capitalism because the political parties of the Right and the leaders of trade and industry, with a few exceptions, have been associated with the Fascist and Quisling dictatorships and Hitler's economic system.
"Throughout Europe, the resistance movements derived their main strength from the workers and their Allies, and are largely under Socialist and Communist leadership. Their reconstruction programmes are based on sweeping advances towards Socialism.
"Europe can be reconstructed, pacified and united, and democracy can be revived only on the basis of a new social order. To that policy the Soviet Union are already committed, and the French people have given their allegiance in the recent elections. On that basis, a Labour Government can work together with the Soviet Union and with the Popular and Democratic forces in Europe that would be irresistibly encouraged by Labour's coming into power.
That combination of States, bound together by such purposes and policies, would be so strong and so successful as to attract the friendship and cooperation of the American and Chinese peoples. On these lines, Labour would put granite foundations under the flimsy scaffolding erected at the San Francisco Conference, and take the lead in building a world organisation capable of guaranteeing peace and promoting the common interests of nations."
If we act as Socialists in Europe, we can work with France and the Soviet Union on the basis of our joint obligations under the Anglo-Soviet and the Franco-Soviet Alliances, and these three States together would win the respect of American Tories and the friendship and cooperation of American Liberals and Labour. A Government adopting that policy would be carrying out the Labour Party's own declared policy, instead of
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drifting and dithering all over the world as it is doing now.
There are three major factors to consider—American capitalism, European Socialism and Russian Communism. If we go with American capitalism against European Socialism we shall throw the latter into the arms of Soviet Communism. But if we work together with France and the U.S.S.R. we shall have the chance of assisting the renascence of Europe and help the people of Europe to the restoration of democracy and toleration.
I want to finish with some remarks of a personal character. Some courage is required to make an attack on the Labour Government's Tory foreign policy. Those who do so are being called "crypto-Com-munists." This, on the face of it, is silly. It is silly to call anybody "crypto" because he speaks his mind, and it is silly to call him Communist for urging a Labour Government to practise its own policy. So far as I am concerned, this is the fight which I started when I joined up in the first world war, because I believed it was the war to end war and to make the world safe for democracy. As an official of the League of Nations, I fought that fight with everything I had, and I have said all my life the things that I have said now. In foreign affairs, I do not take my opinions or judgments from anybody, but I make up my own mind and I have a right to do that. If I insist in this way and put my own judgment against the mass authority of both Front Benches I am in the recollection of the tradition of this House. If I am a rebel on these matters, I am not the first, and I shall not be the last, to stand on his own conscience for what he believes to be right, in spite of what everybody has said against him. I know I am right in this. I know that, on the lines on which we are going now, there is nothing but disaster ahead of us. But if Labour has the courage to part company with the Tories and apply its own Socialist foreign policy, we shall win the peace.
6.46 p.m.
Sir Patrick Hannon: I do not propose to follow the hon. Gentleman in his long trip round Europe and the world, but I would suggest to him that there is such a thing in this House as a time limit for speeches. Before I make my brief speech, may I congratulate the Minister of State on his

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first appearance on the Front Bench opposite? I think we are all particularly pleased with the news of his appointment, and I am certain that he will do great credit to his office.
I would like to bring two points to the attention of the Government. I want to ask the Minister of State whether he is really satisfied that the Foreign Office is giving all the necessary support and encouragement to the people in the Consular Service. I should like to be assured, and I am sure the House would be gratified to know, that some change would be made, particularly in regard to the remuneration and pension system of our Consular Service. My second question is whether the Foreign Office shows sufficient support and sympathy in every part of the world where the British Council is operating. It is one of the best institutions for benefiting this country from the point of view of its culture, and very valuable work has been done by it in most countries in the world. I would like to hear from the Minister of State, when he replies to the Debate, that he intends to accord all the sympathy and support he can give for the advancement of this work which these people are doing so well. The work of the British Council in many countries, and particularly in South America, has been of immense service' in showing the British way of 4ife to the people of those communities and in the establishment of a good foundation for successful diplomatic understanding.
The main point with which I wish to deal is the treatment of the Archbishop of Zagreb. It is difficult to discuss this matter in this House, while reflecting with great satisfaction on the comprehensive survey which the Foreign Secretary gave, and feeling, at the same time, that forces are at work in Europe whose disruptive effect ultimately must be the destruction of Western civilisation as we know it. I believe that the Tito Administration is not merely concerned with the trial of archbishops and priests and the sending of them to the gallows, but that it aims at the destruction of Christianity itself.
Mrs. Leah Manning: May I ask the hon. Gentleman—
Sir P. Hannon: I am sorry that I cannot give way to the hon. Lady, but I have only a short time at my disposal. The
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whole policy of those responsible for the government of Yugoslavia is to drive Christianity out of the land altogether. That applies not merely to the Catholic Church but also to the Orthodox Church. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Certainly. The proceedings of the tribunal which tried the archbishop, priests and other exalted persons of the Church, the method by which evidence was presented and examined, and the propaganda adopted to rouse the people in an endeavour to get a fake petition against the accused was so derogatory of decent administration and government that it makes one feel ashamed that such a state of affairs could prevail in these days even in South-Eastern Europe. The Foreign Secretary has told us today that he is studying all the papers concerned with this tragedy. He could render no greater service to Christianity than to make the decision of His Majesty's Government clear to the Tito Administration—that the Archbishop should be immediately liberated.
My last word concerns our foreign policy in relation to the Consular Service which means so much to the business people of this country. We must try to keep our Dominions as close as possible to the Mother Country. A wise Imperial policy is necessary as the substructure of a sound foreign policy. The more closely we associate with our Dominions, the better and the safer will be the conduct of our foreign policy. I hope that when the Minister of State replies he will take notice of what I have said about the Consular Service and the British Council, and that he will make it clear that something must be done to deal with the tragedy in Zagreb. Finally, I would say to him that the unity of the British Empire and a close contact between all the Governments of this comity of nations are the soundest background for a vigorous foreign policy.
6.54 p.m.
Mr. Stokes: I would like to add a word in support of what the hon. Member for Moseley (Sir P. Hannon) has said in so far as it relates to the Archbishop of Zagreb. In view of what the Foreign Secretary said at Question time today, that he would look at all the documents and carefully consider whether any representations could be made to the Yugoslav Administration, I do not propose to go into the details of the charges

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or countercharges. However, I would say to my right hon. Friend that he will be earning the gratitude of ail Christian peoples throughout the world if, as a result of his representations, this savage sentence is annulled.
I wish to address a few remarks to the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt). We listened to what seemed to me to be a fantastic speech. In talking about the terrible things which this Government have said about the Soviet Union, he pleaded that nothing ever came from the Soviet Union in criticism of this Government and, in fact, that the Soviets had insufficient paper on which to reply. Wherever I have been the evidence has shown that the Russians have a great deal more paper than is good for them. Although I cannot read Russian and, therefore, cannot read their Press, I do read the monitoring reports which are issued every day and which can be found in the Library of this House. If my hon. and learned Friend has any doubt as to whether or not there is any criticism of this Government in Soviet Russia, a half hour spent every day for the next week in studying these monitoring reports would enlighten him. He complains that we are not trying to be friends with Russia. But friendship goes both ways; we cannot be friends with people who will not be friends with us. It may be a ridiculous analogy, but the whole situation reminds me of a rather silly rhyme, which runs something like this:
"Making love to Hannah in a big armchair, Is like floating through Alaska in your underwear."
I think the trouble is very much on the other side. My own conception is that what the Communists fear—I am not talking about the Russians—is that the British Labour Party should be a howling success and should establish a Christian Socialist order in Western Europe. That is the root of the trouble. Having said that, I insist that if the peace of the world is to prevail then, as the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) has said, we must not hitch ourselves to the American bandwagon, but must find a way of friendship and cooperation with the Soviet Union.
Earlier in the Debate, we heard one of the usual mischievous speeches from the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). I was most entertained by his extract from his speech of last Octo-
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ber. He said that he had warned us last year that if certain events happened it would be very important that we should not demobilise too quickly. May I ask hon. Members to carry their minds back to that speech? The whole object of it was to cause mischief to this Government, to make them unpopular with the Forces and to force the rate of demobilisation above what was practicable. But, the right hon. Gentleman always puts in a saving clause. Anybody who studies the right hon. Gentleman, as I do—I have a complete analysis of every speech he made during the war—finds that he always says something which enables him to prove that he was right at the time, whatever happens subsequently. He has done it again today. In a most mischievous manner he asked a question which he knows should not be asked publicly. He could perfectly well have put that question to the Foreign Secretary or the Prime Minister privately, as any responsible hon. Member would have done, if he had grounds for entertaining such fears. I think he has done mischief. I would point out that it did not surprise me, although I think it is unfortunate that it should have happened just at the time when my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is going on this most important mission on which, I am sure, we all wish him success.
One cannot go through the whole catalogue of foreign affairs, and I am going to confine myself to some remarks about Italy and Germany and displaced and persecuted people everywhere. I will take Italy first. The Foreign Secretary said yesterday that due regard had been paid to the services which Italy had rendered to us towards the end of the war when she became a cobelligerent. Of course, I knew that would be the case, but it is important that the consideration which is given in making this peace treaty should be of such a nature that it is recognisable at the other end. I do not propose to talk about Trieste, because it is almost a fait accompli and finished with, but I do not think the House realises the services which Italy rendered after she became a cobelligerent. Take her Navy, for example. The protocol of the Armistice was altered so that she placed her Navy unconditionally at the service of the Allies. It is a little hard and distressing for competent Italian politicians to find now that the Italian

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Navy is to be treated as booty. I hope that when my right hon. Friend gets to Washington he will find a way to get the Italian Navy handed over to U.N.O., which would create a good impression in Italy, which has quite a fairly representative democratic Government. I do not think it is realised how the Italian Air Force helped, and how the Italian Armed Forces fought against the Germans in the North and rendered sundry other services up and down the coast at key points. I am sure my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary realises this, but unless somebody says so, our Italian friends may not realise that we are taking as much interest as we ought. When the Treaty comes to be signed, it must be in a form which can be accepted by a self-respecting democratic leader of the Italian people; otherwise, there will be trouble I end my remarks about Italy by saying that it seems to be contrary to the first and second clauses of the Atlantic Charter that by this Trieste adjustment about 180,000 Italians are, willy-nilly, to be handed over into the power of people with whom they do not wish to live.
We heard a speech from the opposite benches yesterday with which I almost entirely agree. I agree with what was said about the constant reiteration that we must not be "sloppy" in our approach to the German problem. There is no question of "sloppy" sentiment, nor is there any question of being tough. What really matters is that we should be just, that there should be justice which will be recognised in years to come. When tempers are hot and people are hurt and war is just over, we are all inclined to take a jaundiced view. The peace of the world will only last if we bear in mind that what matters is that the peace that is made now should not be an imposed peace, that it must be ultimately an agreed peace, a peace embracing all the peoples in the world, which will be considered just not only today, but in generations to come. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford warned the Foreign Secretary of the danger of imposing any policy or philosophy on a defeated nation, and he referred to what happened after the last war. I agree with the theory that an imposed peace is no use and must eventually break down, but I cannot help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman
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has not realised that the world has gone on. When the Foreign Secretary told us yesterday for the first time—and we were all glad to hear it—of the Government's policy to socialise the heavy industries in Germany, I wondered whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood-ford realised that there has been an election in Berlin and that the Social Democratic forces are in. Incidentally, the hon. Member far Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) was wrong when he referred to the Catholic Democrats. It is called the Christian Democratic Union and is the strongest party in both the British and American zones; together with the Social Democratic Party they swamp all other parties. Those two parties far outnumber any of the other parties, and there is a heavy Left Wing in the Christian Democratic Union. I wish we could get some sort of an alliance between the Social Democratic Party and the Left Wing of the Christian Democratic Union. However, that is by the way.
The Government should realise that what is important is to ascertain what the progressive forces in Germany want. No danger can arise from this at a later date, provided the Government carry on with their same determination. My anxiety in the matter is whether the Americans will "play." I agree with the hon. Member for Gateshead when he said that the Americans are ''playing up" to big business. I cannot persuade myself that Wall Street is anxious to socialise the American zone. I hope that when the Foreign Secretary goes to Washington he will impress upon Wall Street, and whoever represents the Right Wing in America, that the only possible solution to the problem in Germany today is for a Socialist planned economy. I hope that that aim will be achieved, because there is no salvation in any other way.
I have one or two suggestions I would like to make to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, which I hope he will bear in mind when he goes abroad. In the first place, we know very well that the whole level of industry at present very largely depends on coal. I do not think it is sufficiently realised how many German miners are kept out of Germany. It is all very well for the French to take coal out of our areas. With 56,000 miners in their mines, they are getting 105 per cent. of what they got before the war. But they are using 135 per cent. manpower. That does

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not add up. It ought to be made plain to them that if they want more coal from the Ruhr they must send the miners back. They have no right to use these men as slaves now that the war has come to an end. There is another question which I have put to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster but to which I have not got all the answers I would like. Can the Foreign Secretary, when he goes to Washington, impress upon the other three Powers that the blowing up of plants, factories and housing in Germany is nonsense and must be stopped, and that anything which can be of the slightest use in improving conditions for peacetime purposes must be left? When he referred to the Potsdam level of industry and economy, I am glad he made it quite clear that we are not going on with the Potsdam Agreement unless all four Powers cooperate. I do not like the Potsdam Agreement, anyway. The other Powers do not look like cooperating; there is not much sign of it yet. I would like to know how long we are going on in this state of affairs, with ourselves being forced to do things we do not want to do, while the other Powers are not "playing up" to the Potsdam Declaration. Some definite limit must be set.
Further, the burden of taxation in Germany at present bears most heavily on the working people. The average general worker, a married man with two children, after paying his taxes, has not sufficient money with which to buy the rations even at the 1,100 calory level. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) spoke yesterday of the ration now being up to 1,550 calories. Let us bear in mind, however, that that is nothing very great; that is still what the authorities consider slow starvation level. I would like to have an assurance from the Government—and I hope we can get it—that that level will be maintained. The information I have is that already they are short in the Ruhr, and unless something further is done now it is likely that that ration will have to drop again shortly. If that does happen, it will be an absolute tragedy. I do ask the Government, if possible, to prevent it.
An hon. Member has spoken of the World Trade Union Federation. It is not for me to preach to my trade union brethren, but I want to make a suggestion. It would have a tremendous effect
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amongst the workers in Germany if the German trade unions were invited to join the World Trade Union Federation. On my three visits to Germany I was asked many times, "Why cannot we come in? We want your help. The more we can show we are in cooperation with you, the greater our influence in this country will be." I merely throw that out as a suggestion. I also want to ask the Foreign Secretary about the question of de-Nazi-fication. I have just received a telegram, and it really is alarming. A promise was made not very long ago by the Com-mander-in-Chief, that the German youth would be given an amnesty; that is to say, people who joined the Hitler Youth when they were kids would not be examined, but their records would just be wiped clean. Now, by a dictate, Directive No. 38, all who joined before 15th March, 1939, are to be investigated. That is causing absolute consternation amongst the young people. In fact, it is doing more than that. This promise having been put out by the Commander-in-Chief, and, I understand, accepted by my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the latest development is now being quoted as yet another example of our having made a promise and gone back on it. It is having the worst possible effect. I wish that could be denied as early as possible.
I have two more points, the first of which concerns the Foreign Secretary's explanation yesterday about what was planned in regard to the decentralisation scheme which he adumbrated. I am not quite sure I understood what he meant. He said the scheme
"would avoid the two extremes of a loose confederation of autonomous States and a unitary centralised State."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd October. 1946; Vol. 427, c. 1518.]
I do not see how we are to get a really planned economy in Germany unless we completely avoid loose confederation. If areas are all to be allowed to do things on their own, I do not see how we can get any proper socialised economy there at all. If the confederation is at all loose I can see the whole effort to get a planned economy becoming so chaotic that in the end the people will be shouting, "Let us unite together once more and have another Hitler." That would be absolutely disastrous. I do ask that whatever form this confederation takes it shall not be of such a loose character that planned economy

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becomes impossible, or breaks down at its inception.
Then, cannot we stop behaving like Herrenvolk? I do not want to say too much about this. I am thinking, first of all, of the Hamburg "Poona," into which I need not go in detail because I spoke about it the other day. There are all sorts of matters of behaviour like that which are completely un-British. I am afraid it is because the military are too much in control; that is what it comes to.
My final point on this matter is that I wish the Government would really seriously consider having a Minister in Germany, someone who has access to the Cabinet and is resident in the British zone and not in Berlin. At the moment the situation seems to me to be absolutely hopeless. I have been there only for short periods of a fortnight at a time now and then, but even in that short time the number of things which obviously crop up from day to day, which need somebody with political competence to decide, are too numerous to start recounting. It cannot be done from Norfolk House; the atmosphere and background are wrong. I know precisely what happens from my own experience: I return to the House, I am submerged with other work, and I am right out of touch again in two or three days. I do not see how my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy, even were he the greatest heaven-sent genius in the world, could do it; if he were the Archangel Gabriel himself he would break down—and he is not the Archangel Gabriel. Everybody to whom I have spoken says the same thing: "Please let us have a responsible political head here to make these decisions on political grounds, and let the Military Government and the military authorities get their instructions from him." My own impression is that unless something is done, and done quickly, to implement the policy which the Foreign Secretary defined yesterday—and here I am talking about the level of industry, because we have got nowhere near the Potsdam level yet; the output of steel at the present time is three million tons a year, whereas Potsdam allows seven million tons, so it is no use arguing about Potsdam, because we are not half way there—unless something is done to revivify industry, I am afraid there will be complete disillusionment amongst the German people about the
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working of British democracy. That would be an absolute tragedy, because they do look to us for support and leadership.
I now pass to an entirely different subject. I want to speak about what I call the distressed, the displaced and the persecuted persons. I do not feel that the matter of the displaced persons has really been tackled with the urgency which it should have received. I know I have the sympathy of the Chancellor of the Duchy, the Minister of State and the Foreign Secretary on this matter. I want to support them in their efforts to get the three Western Powers to settle this matter. I think it is an awful mistake to hand it over to the I.R.O. What is the problem? I am speaking of the problem in Germany, not the problem the whole world over because I do not know it. The problem in Germany between ourselves and the Americans is that there are 800,000 displaced persons who will not go back to their own countries. It is a waste of time to argue why; they are determined not to go, and we have promised them that they will not be forced to go. Nothing is being done about it. Surely, if this matter was treated as a question of military urgency it ought to be possible for the United States, France, Great Britain and the British Empire, with our teeming population of about 250 million, to absorb those 800,000 displaced persons. In this country we have never suffered from having foreigners come in; it has done us a lot of good. Cannot we take a lead here? Surely to goodness, if we put our minds to it we could get this problem settled, and settled quickly. Just leaving them, even for another year, which seems likely now, will have a deplorable moral effect on them. I hope that when U.N.R.R.A. finishes they will not be handed over to yet another organisation, but left under the Military Government.
I wish now to speak about a different side of the same question, namely, the appalling slavery that is going on in many countries in the world. I have just been to one country where there are 51 slave camps, on the admission of the authorities; 51 camps where men and women are locked up, herded together, and very often not tried for anything at all, but simply kept under lock and key and starving because they are politically dis-

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agreeable to the Government. I want to ask the Foreign Secretary, when he is in Washington, to make representations to the Russians and to all our friends in Europe—for a great number of them are like this, I am sorry to say—and to point out that that is not what we fought for; it is precisely what we all fought against. There is terrible suffering amongst millions of people. If I were to add up all the camps about which I have been told—not merely those I have visited, because that would be absurd—there must be 10 or 12 million people locked up in slave camps. That is absolutely wrong. I do ask the Foreign Secretary to make the strongest representations that the rights of the human being should be respected, and that these slave camps— in Western Europe as well because they are not only in Central Europe and Russia —should be liquidated and the people, in so far as they are not criminals, set free. I make these remarks with no regrets or repentance. You should never condone in your friends what you condemn in your enemies.
My final point is this. It has always seemed to me very odd that at the end of a great war, as far as I can see—I am not blaming the Government at all; I think they have done their best, and, in many ways, done well—the international organisations do not really seem to be doing what they ought to do in the way of providing the people with houses, clothes and food, which is what people want the world over. The first thing we have done in these international organisations is to discuss the control of money. I am not going off on one of my pet themes, but why first of all at the end of a great war, do we discuss how we are going to issue monetary tickets to control the wealth of the world? It seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse. It is just as if we decided to run a bus service and, before deciding how many buses we were to have and where they were to run, began to argue about how many tickets ought to be printed. Let Britain and the Empire give a lead. We have enormous natural resources awaiting the service of man. President Roosevelt once said, "Forget the dollar sign. Cut out the financial nonsense." We have in the Empire people capable of producing a prodigious amount of wealth. Could not our approach be to put those natural resources at the disposal of
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humanity as a whole? That has not been said anywhere at all except by unimportant back benchers like myself. If it could be said in Washington, and if it could be made plain that the Americans and ourselves, alone if need be, were gathered together and determined that the plenty available should be put into the hands and mouths and on the bodies of all the people who need it, I believe there would be such a resurgence in Europe and the world as everyone would wish to see.
Major Tufton Beamish: Would the hon. Gentleman clear up one point about which I am sure he did not intend to leave the House in any doubt? He referred to the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood-ford (Mr. Churchill) as mischievous, as I understand it, with special reference to the question the right hon. Gentleman asked the Government. If, in fact, the Soviet Union are maintaining at war strength some 200 divisions in the area specified by the right hon. Gentleman, is the hon. Gentleman of the opinion that the public should be kept in ignorance of the fact?
Mr. Stokes: Oh. no. I am all for telling the public everything. That is why, despite the shortcomings of the conference in Paris, I think the fact that the debates were in the open was a good thing. We have avoided pitfalls. But I say that a speech like that—not only that point—but a speech like that, coupled with a question of that kind, is mischievous. It should have been dealt with differently.
7.22 p.m.
Mr. Lipson: I want to support the plea made by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) that Great Britain and the Dominions, the United States and France should each open their doors to some of the 800,000 displaced persons. I think that not only humanity but, also, wise policy demands that. So far as this Government are concerned, if they will give the lead in this matter it will be a most important step towards settling that great, burning question of Palestine.
In my view the whole character of this Debate has been changed by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and, in particular, by the question which he asked

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at the end of it. I believe that that speech overshadows everything that has been said in this Debate.
There was, unfortunately, a great deal of alarm and despondency and fear of the future in the world before this Debate began. In his speech yesterday the Foreign Secretary was extremely restrained, and if he did not say anything which would allay that anxiety, I do not think he can be accused of having said anything which could possibly add to it. There were matters of controversy in that speech, as those of us know who were present in the House and heard the reception of certain parts of it. But there was nothing which, in my opinion, was vitally controversial, as far as the issue of peace and war is concerned. I think the same is also true of the speech, the extremely wise speech, if I may say so, and the generous speech of the Prime Minister this afternoon.
But then an entirely new situation was created by the latter part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford. I want to remind the House of the setting in which that question was put. The right hon. Gentleman has a very strong sense of the dramatic. He began by asking if the promise of consultation by the Government with the Opposition on foreign affairs could now be implemented, as it was the intention of the Opposition in the near future to ask for such consultations. Now, I have myself advocated in this House on previous occasions that such consultations should be a regular matter of procedure so far as foreign affairs are concerned, and that it should not be only when the country is on the verge of war that the leaders of the Opposition are summoned to 10, Downing Street. I would go further. Personally, I regret that the Opposition was not represented in the delegation at the Peace Conference and in the delegation which we are sending to the meetings of U.N.O. But, anyhow, if the right hon. Gentleman wanted these consultations to take place, I submit that, in view of the troubled nature of things at the moment, it would have been wiser to have made that request through the usual channels.
Then, having created a disturbed feeling in the mind of many hon. Members, he puts his question. I ask the Minister of State, when he replies, to give a definite reply to the question which I am about
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to put to him, because I believe that this matter will have repercussions right through the world; I believe the right hon. Member's question will strike terror in the hearts of millions of men and women throughout the world. The right hon. Gentleman is a person of consequence. As a result of his speeches before the war, he has been able to establish himself as a prophet so far as the international situation is concerned. He deservedly made a very great reputation as a war leader. When he asks a question like that the whole world will be asking, "What is the purpose behind this question? What is the meaning of it all?" I want the Government to answer this. Will they say if that was a prearranged question? Did they have any advance notice that that question was to be asked? Because it is in the interests of world peace that the Government should make it quite clear that they had no knowledge that that question was going to be asked and in no way associate themselves with it. I should like to ask the Government, also: Do they think that, the international situation being what it is, any useful purpose could possibly be served by that question? In their opinion is it going to, be of advantage to the Foreign Secretary in his task of trying to establish friendly relations between Russia and ourselves, upon which, alone, a durable peace can be built? Or, in their opinion, can no useful purpose be served by it?
I am sure we all wish the Foreign Secretary "Godspeed" in his efforts at the approaching Conference. But I hope we shall not have repeated the unedifying spectacle which we had in Paris, where unseemly squabbles took place in public. I hope there will be a good deal more restraint in what is said, because we all realise that the important issue now is, whether there is to be peace or war. The people were promised that if the war was won there was to be freedom from fear. Alas, that hope has not yet been realised. Let me also remind hon. Members opposite that they gave a pledge at the Election that, if the Members of their party were returned, there would be a greater opportunity of friendship with Russia.
The common man throughout the world is longing for peace. He is not concerned with these questions of power politics, of tactics and strategy, and getting into position for a future war. He is anxious only for a condition of things in which he

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and his children can grow up in peace, and live their lives as they want to live them, without being haunted by the fear of war. That is the task which the Foreign Secretary has to achieve, and we all wish him "God-speed" in his efforts.
7.31 p.m.
Wing-Commander Millington: I follow with great pleasure the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) because I, as one of the younger Members of this House, have just been doing some arithmetic, and I calculate that 22½ pet cent. of my whole life has been spent in a country involved in a world war. If there is one thing which I believe to be more important than any other factor, it is that my generation should not only realise that basic fact, but should be in a position to do something about it.
Last Saturday, and again yesterday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the credit of this country was very high and was going up. During this summer I went as a delegate from this country to a conference in Luxemburg, where 31 nations got together, not through their Governments, but through their voluntary organisations, to form a world federation of United Nations associations. It was clearly borne in upon me that our prestige has a double aspect. On one side it is going up, and on the other side it is fast tumbling down. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer is talking about the credit of the Government in domestic affairs, it is perfectly true that in the eyes of the world, and in particular of the countries of Western Europe which are looking to us for a lead in their great problems of political and economic reconversion, our stock is steadily rising. Even in the United States of America, which looked a bit askance upon the results of the election of July, 1945, they are amazed to discover that this peculiar party, which now governs the affairs of this country which is the heart of the British Empire, is managing to get over its immediate postwar difficulties with far more smoothness, and far less breakdowns, than the United States themselves, with all their economic and military resources. On the other hand I found, talking to ordinary men and women from these other countries, that there is the feeling, in Europe in particular, that since this Government came into power there has been a pro-
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gressive betrayal of the hopes and aspirations of the peoples of Europe. It seems to me that what this Government have been doing in their foreign affairs has been to spend so much of their time heresy hunting inside their own ranks for those people who are called "crypto-Communists" that they are pursuing a policy which is not crypto at all, but is overt Conservatism.
We have heard a declaration which was very welcome to the House, and particularly to the Socialists in it, on the policy of His Majesty's Government towards Germany, and it was the one aspect of the Foreign Secretary's speech which was greeted with acclamation by the Socialists in the Labour Party that the industries of Germany are to be socialised, and a positive three-phase policy is to be laid down which will encourage the development of democratic institutions in Germany—the right of free association and ultimate self determination for the German people. But even that, in my opinion, is not the statement of a Socialist Foreign Secretary, because it is just over a year late. That policy in fact should have risen automatically in the mind of the Foreign Secretary immediately the war finished in Europe, immediately we saw what the destiny of Europe was now that we had the prospect in this country of a Socialist and democratic lead.
It has struck me that the lack of a policy, or rather the conservatism of the policy—the desire for the status quo, the retention of the same advisers and representatives in the chancelleries of the world —demonstrated itself in the speech made yesterday by the Foreign Secretary, in the Prime Minister's speech today, and in all the Governmental speeches we have heard recently. We have an opportunity now to reframe the relationships between man and man, between nation and nation throughout the world, to make it possible for my children to grow up without spending 22½ per cent. of their first 30 years in a country at war. Yet in the survey—the masterly survey, admittedly —that we had from the Foreign Secretary yesterday, did we get any forward thinking at all? Has there not been, in fact, a retrogression in the utterances of the Foreign Secretary, from the very great speech he made in this Chamber last November, when he talked about his

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aspirations for a world in which the world government, the world parliament, derived its authority from the democratic votes of the peoples throughout the world? We have not heard very much during these two days about the United Nations organisation, which for all its defects is the only thing which stands between the peoples of the world and chaos in the very near future. We have not heard what is wrong with it, we have not heard what has got to be done to make it right, but I think that everyone of us should give as much attention as we can to the instrument which is now in existence and do our utmost to make it work.
I was interested to hear the Prime Minister say today that, in the deliberations in San Francisco, the British delegation had a different interpretation of the use of the veto from that which has worked out during the last few months. He made what I thought was the rather naive statement that he hoped that the British delegation, when it met the other delegations in New York, would use its influence and would use pressure to restore the veto clause to what, in July of last year, we hoped it would be. I am convinced that the veto clause was written into the Security Council with the definite and specific intention that that Council— I made a note of what the Prime Minister said—instead of being a place to create confidence, should be such that some nations could preserve for themselves the right, in disputes in which their interests were concerned, to place themselves above international law. That is why we have in the Security Council the veto clause, which makes it possible for any one of the Big Five nations, either by a contrary vote or by an abstention, to nullify the will of the Council even if all the other nations of the world want a decision made against that one Power. It would be naive of the Prime Minister to wish "God-speed" to our delegation, and urge them to bring pressure to bear to limit the use of the veto because, unless one can limit the purpose behind its original inclusion in the constitution of the Security Council, unless one can get at this question of sovereignty and the basic desire of some nations to determine without reference to international authority their relationships with other Powers, no matter what instructions are
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given to the British delegation it will not in fact be possible to limit the use of the veto. And I think, as an historical point, it should be put on record that, although the use of the veto during the last few months has been primarily by the Soviet delegation, it was in fact the late President Roosevelt himself who insisted on the insertion of that clause. So Russia, in this instance, is not the only big bad wolf; it was the United States of America which originally initiated that clause because America, as well as Russia, is anxious for the preservation of its own sovereignty.
It therefore appears to me that we have to use our influence as a nation. We have to make our Government use their influence as a delegation in this world assembly, not to limit the number of times the veto can be applied, not even to press for its abolition, because it would be nonsense to put that down on the Order Paper of the General Assembly, but to work on the other two effective councils of the United Nations organisation, the Economic and Social Council and the Trusteeship Council and make positive forward steps which will remove the atmosphere of suspicion when every nation insists on its sovereignty. If we as Members of Parliament and public men have no other function, we ought to be spending our energies and our time on trying first to see the other man's point of view, trying to understand the point of view of someone whose ideology is contrary to our own. It is easy for us who are Socialists to understand the ideology of the capitalist, because we have been brought up in the capitalist system, and all we have to do is to go back to our school days and pick up a few history books to brush up our knowledge.
It is very difficult to understand precisely why this veto clause has been welcomed by the Soviet delegation. It is difficult for us to understand why it has been used so often. We cannot make the first overtures of real friendship towards the Russians unless we not only understand what is in their minds, but demonstrate clearly to them that we have such an understanding. I submit that the first thing we have to understand more than anything else is that the Russian diplomats have been striving for time in these last 15 months. They feel that they require time because of contrary actions which

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have been taken by the Western democracies. We have heard from the hon. Member for Cheltenham that the question asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) may cause alarm in the hearts and minds of millions of people throughout the world. Cannot we put ourselves behind the minds, of the millions of Soviet citizens, who ever since July, 1945, knew that their ideological enemies not only had possession of the one great war-making, war-finishing weapon, the greatest ever invented in history, but had said, in words backed up by articles from responsible politicians, in their magazines and newspapers, "We will not let an international authority have it. We will not allow the Soviet Union to know about it"? Irresponsible elements have even said that they will fight a protective war while they have it, because unless they have an early war, Russia will be given time to have this weapon to fight on even terms.
All this talk about fear of the Soviet strikes me as being the most absolute nonsense to anyone who has any knowledge of history. Our Allies lost 7 million killed in the war, which is a greater number than those killed in combat from the rest of the European nations. They have had 87 big towns destroyed, and 1,700 villages, not just "Coventrated," or whatever is the English word, but utterly obliterated. I am convinced that although delaying, M. Molotov and M. Vyshinsky have done excellently from their point of view in the Security Council, in striving for time, because their diplomacy, which I do not personally care for, is that they must have time in order that they can develop their atomic bomb. Paradoxically, peace will come and understanding will come when all sides are equally armed. Only when all sides are equally armed, can suspicion go. Then someone can go to the Conference of the United Nations with a proposal that now all nations have got it, they should put it in an international pool and ban it from any future war and any future settlement of world affairs.
I rose to say that the prestige of this country is rising as far as our domestic affairs are concerned. Our prestige is still great throughout the world, and it can become so much greater if we go in for a far-seeing Socialist policy, and if the representatives of this Government see to
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it that the representatives of other nations never forget that we are a democratic Socialist Government and proud of it. Our prestige is still such in the eyes of the small nations that although we have not the manpower resources, the military power, the atomic bomb and the latest barbarous developments of bacterial warfare, although we came out of this war economically poorer in relation to other countries than we have ever been, we still have the prestige to go to the small people with positive forward-looking proposals for international collaboration. We shall have not only the Dominions and the great Commonwealth of Nations, but we can lead the ordinary peoples of Europe to the only hope of world cooperation in the United Nations organisation.
7.47 p.m.
Mr. Spearman: The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Wing-Commander Millington) has such a fine war record that he is entitled to be listened to with toleration, if not with respect for the opinions he has expressed today. His opinions seem to me to show that he is more sensitive to, and more interested in, the welfare of another country than that for which he fought so gallantly. I think that the Foreign Secretary's speech will be recognised throughout the country to be as impressive as it was certainly massive. I am particularly glad he has stressed so much the inherent danger of the position in Germany today. It is about the economic conditions of that unhappy country that I want to confine my remarks tonight.
It seems to me that if we have learned anything, it is that widespread poverty cannot long exist in the midst of plenty without poisoning it. For that reason I believe that upon the fate of that country depends not only the future of Germany, but the future of Western civilisation. As Field-Marshal Smuts has said, it may well become a centre of infection which will poison the whole continent. For that reason I was very disappointed that the Foreign Secretary gave us no indication of any alteration in the policy or in the organisation of the administration of the Control Commission that might improve conditions in that country. However guilty that country may be, and however much suffering they have inflicted on the world, it does not alter the fact that starving and hopeless people are not

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going to build a democratic State on which so much depends for Europe. The right hon. Gentleman warned us to avoid sloppy sentimentality but I suggest that this is hard, realistic, thinking, which is sometimes more difficult to digest.
I would like to speak briefly about the present deplorable conditions in Germany. In the summer, there was a series of articles in the "Daily Mail," written by a distinguished journalist who had been visiting Germany, and I would like to quote one sentence which, I think, rather vividly, perhaps dramatically, describes the conditions there. The writer said:
"Slowly, quietly and hygienically, the Germans are moving towards death. Belsen is quiet and deserted now, but, outside its gates, you find a new Belsen, hygienic, slow-motion Belsen, organised by us."
On the same day an article in the "Manchester Guardian," which is not always an unreliable paper, described the conditions in a mental home in Germany in the British zone. It stated that it was too awful to relate in full detail, but it described the condition of one woman:
"Normally, she weighs 136½ lbs; now, she is 83½ lbs. She is little more than a skeleton, except for her swollen waterlogged belly, and bloated feet and ankles. Cases such as this can be seen in many other places in Germany today. What has happened in this hospital is a sample of what has been happening to Germans as a whole; but a concentrated sample and one constantly under observation by scientists qualified to observe but helpless to arrest."
I was in the British zone in the spring of this year, and although I realise that that was six months ago, and that I was not there long enough to form anything but a superficial view, all I saw then, and all I have heard since, bears out the accuracy of those two newspaper reports. I remember seeing on the trains in Germany literally hundreds of women climbing on the roofs, and swarming on the iron rails between the coaches—I suppose that, inevitably, many must have fallen off—in a desperate hope that they might pick up some food in the country. I was taken to see housing conditions in Dusseldorf by the British medical officer of health. He took me, for example, into an air raid shelter and showed me the conditions there. In one place which was more like a cell than a room, little bigger than an English first-class sleeper, there was no fresh air or daylight, yet in it
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two people lived, slept, washed, cooked, and ate. The military governor of one great town of 500,000 inhabitants told me that they were living in one-eighth of their prewar capacity. Many Members have been to Germany, and have seen these incredible conditions. Mile after mile of houses are flat, and people are living in cellars amidst rubble. Another notable thing which is an indication of the sort of hopelessness of the situation, is that apart from food shops always to be noted by their queues none are open in the Ruhr. There is nothing to sell. There is a complete feeling of hopelessness throughout the country. I see that the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) is here now. and perhaps I may say that I have long tried to catch your predecessor's eye, Sir, after his speeches, which are always courageous, often brilliantly amusing, and frequently have in them a germ of truth, though sometimes it is hidden very deep.
Mr. George Thomas: Is it catching?
Mr. Spearman: Today that germ blossomed out to full flower. At least every quarter of an hour, I heard him saying something with which I was in full agreement. Perhaps, I may say, particularly, how much I agree with what he said, and with what was so well said by the hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) yesterday—that in our long-term policy, we ought to do what is right because it is right, and not think, and say, so much about doing what is easy and convenient.
If I may again refer to the conditions in Germany, I would say there may be many people who think that the Germans have only got all that they deserved, but I think that no one can possibly challenge the fact that they are quite tragic now, and, perhaps, on the verge of much worse to come. The Foreign Secretary cannot be accused of over-stating his case, when he said, yesterday, that the workers in Germany are disturbed by lack of certainty about their future. Do these things matter? I think that they do, on two grounds—on the ground of expediency and on the ground of humanity. First, it seems to me clear that 70 million Germans, whatever their defects, are people of energy and intelligence, and they cannot be a negative force. They may be a force for good or for ill; and I feel that we are driving them into being a force for ill.

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I agree, again, with what my hon. Friend the Member tor Flint said yesterday, that it is not now but in 20 or 30 years time that we may have to coerce the Germans, to maintain the peace of the world. There can be no possible danger for many years to come of Germany being an active aggressor. I think that any one who has seen the devastation, and the entirely different position now in Germany from what it was after the last war, will agree with that. Let us remember that the more harsh we are now, the more certain there is to be a reaction and softening in the years to come, just when it may be most unwise. I think that our national characteristic of being possessed of greater kindliness of heart than imagination is illustrated by the story of a noble lord, who was entertaining a party to dinner at his house in the country. He was reviling the Germans, and saying that there was no torture which was too bad for them. In the midst of his remarks, the butler came into the room, and said, "A German aeroplane has crashed on the park and I think that a man is badly hurt." At once, the noble lord instructed one man to send for an ambulance, another to get a doctor, another to prepare the best room, while he rushed out himself, with a glass of brandy, saying, "Poor chap, let us do all we can." That is typical of us, and an indication of what may occur in the years to come.
I think that any one who read carefully HANSARD in the 1930's would be rather surprised at the statements there made, advocating softer treatment for Germany. The right hon. Gentleman the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has, I think, a better record than most of his colleague? in the prewar period, of being realistic with regard to armaments. May I quote what he said in this House:
"It is only right to say bluntly and frankly that public opinion in this country would not support, and certainly the Labour party would not support, the taking of military sanctions or even economic sanctions against Germany at this time, in order to put German troops out of the German Rhine-land."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March, 1936; Vol. 310, c. 1454.]
That, I suggest, is an indication of the softening that may come, and which may, perhaps, be very dangerous in the future. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been saying a good deal lately about the expense to this country of £80 million a year. It he could
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induce some other countries to join in the liability, I think we would all welcome it. I have never yet understood why it should be that this country should have to bear the entire burden of all these obligations. It is true we were not invaded by land, but we were invaded by air, and indeed, we have suffered greater economic consequences than many other nations on the Continent. Why should not they bear their share of these liabilities? But if they cannot be induced to do so, I suggest it would be a very false economy to try to save a few million pounds here and there, and so prolong poverty, and perhaps create a permanently depressed area and conditions of pestilence, in Central Europe. What we want to see in Germany, what will suit us from the standpoint of expediency, can be summed up in three words: we would like to see Germany fat but impotent.
Mr. W. D. Griffiths: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that this newly-found solicitude for the German people expressed by him tonight, and by the hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) yesterday, is an expression of the Tory Party's desire to recreate Germany as a possible spearhead in the future against the Soviet Union?
Mr. Spearman: I am afraid I have failed in my attempt to make myself plain to the hon. Member. I have been saying all through that, on grounds of sheer expediency—not on account of the Germans themselves, but for the sake of this country —I do not think we can have prolonged poverty in the midst of plenty, and that if there is pestilence in Europe anywhere, it is bound to spread. I come now to the point about humanity. I say without shame that there are in that country, I suppose, millions of men, women and children who were not born, or who were only small children, when Hitler came into power, and they were faced with that position when they came of age. Those people are suffering. I do not think that is right. At any rate, are many of us so perfect that we can say, "Let them take it, they deserve it"? I do not think we are. It has often been the fate of this country to have to knock another country down; it has, perhaps, sometimes been our unwisdom to let them rise up too quickly and too far, but it has never been our practice to kick a man when he is down, and that is what we are in danger of doing

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now. I would like briefly to quote what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said on 18th January, 1945. When he spoke on that date, I think he committed this country to a policy of humanity. He was not then speaking as a Party leader, but as head of the National Government. He was speaking as one— I think perhaps we can claim not the least—of the three great world statesmen. He said:
"I … have repeatedly declared that the enforcement of unconditional surrender upon the enemy in no way relieves the victorious Powers of their obligations to humanity, or of their duties as civilised and Christian nations. I read somewhere that when the ancient Athenians, on one occasion, overpowered a tribe in the Peloponnesus which had wrought them great injury by base, treacherous means, and when they had the hostile army herded on a beach naked for slaughter, they forgave them and set them free, and they said: 'This was not done because they were men; it was done because of the nature of Man.'"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th January, 1945; Vol. 407, c. 424.]
"I come to the last point, which is this: Are the Government at fault for these conditions? I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply three questions. First, have the Government a clear and objective policy; second, are they satisfied that they have a satisfactory organisation in the zone; and thirdly, have they the right people? I believe that throughout the country there is a growing feeling of anxiety that things are not right in Germany and that a disaster which could be avoided is imminent—a disaster which will have repercussions in this country. It may well be that His Majesty's Government can give reassuring replies to those three questions, but I say that without any shadow of doubt they have not done so yet, and that they have not made their case. Until they do, I am bound to be critical and to believe that the present position in Germany is the fault of His Majesty's Government. I should like to take each of those three points in turn. First, on general policy, it sems to me that there is a condition of drift. We know that originally it was anticipated that Germany would be one economic unit, and we know now that in the British zone we are continually frustrated by the shortage of necessary articles which come from other zones. It may be that the right course is to continue to try to work with the other Powers economically, and
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that by improving the machinery for quadripartite policy—which I suggest is very clumsy and quite ineffective at the moment—maintain that position; or it may be that it would be a lesser evil to cut our losses and to have, after all, a divided rather than a ruined Europe, and to ignore the Potsdam Agreement.
I am obviously not qualified to judge which of those two courses is right, but I can surely say with some confidence that after His Majesty's Government have been in office for 15 months the time has arrived when they should know which is the right policy and should not drift between the two. Secondly, I suggest that in the British zone itself there is a conflict between those who are trying to pull down Germany in order to prevent the aggressive military power of German industry being revived, or in order to provide reparations for other countries, and those who are trying to rehabilitate and reconstruct the country. The administration itself seems to me to be ineffective. "Remote control" hardly describes, to my mind, the extraordinary hotch potch of authorities which appear to constitute the government of the British zone in Germany. There appears to be a division of authority between Norfolk House and the Foreign Office, between London and Berlin, and between Berlin and the British zone. Perhaps that explains why one policy is sometimes pursued in Berlin while quite a different policy is pursued in the British zone. I am told that decisions for the zone are often slow to come and conflicting when they arrive. There seems to me to be no overriding authority responsible for seeing that these decisions form part of a consistent policy.
Finally, I come to the more delicate point of the personnel I hope that no perhaps clumsy word of mine will be taken as a reflection on the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, because I appreciate his good will, sincerity, and tireless energy. At the same time, while realising that he may be a very good member of a team of Ministers, I suggest that he must share some responsibility for present conditions. I realise the difficult task he has; after all, he is trying to do in Germany what is done in this country by many Ministers—the Minister of Health, the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Education, and so on.
Here the Ministers have their own Civil Service. He has not even got the House

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of Commons, which I am sure every hon. Member will agree is a help in their labours. The hon. Gentleman, so far as I know, has had no previous administrative experience and it is quite certain that he has held no great office before. He has not got that degree of prestige which might have made the job much easier. I wonder whether his appointment by the Government is not an indication that the Government have not quite realised that this is a most momentous task. They should have had someone of great prestige and experience.
The position in regard to coal in the British zone might be taken as an example of the criticisms I have been trying to make. Coal is all important. Without more coal in the British zone, steel production will fall. Without more steel available in the mines, coal production will fall. Thereby, two things will follow—less goods and less chance of recovery. One would therefore have thought that coal would have been given complete priority over everything. What happened? Miners' rations were cut. Would not it have been more economical in the long run to obtain fish from Scandinavia or Dutch vegetables in order to produce better results? Would it not have been possible to do something to improve the miners' houses in order to give them some inducement to work? Instead, builders were taken away to work on Government buildings. That moment was chosen—with coal production falling—to make a cut in the miners' pensions. Would it not have been more expedient to make some cut in their taxation rather than their pensions?
We therefore find that food policy, Government buildings and budget equilibrium have been given preference over coal because nobody has been responsible for coordinating policy. Is not all this evidence of amateurs at play? Right hon. Gentlemen opposite have talked a great deal about planning. Shouting is no substitute for action. What we want to see is more planning, if it can be well devised.
There is one thing upon which we can all agree to whatever party we belong, and that is that we should attack suffering wherever it exists and however it comes about. There is the most acute suffering in the British zone now. When this Government came into office a year and a quarter ago they received a great
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inheritance. However exhausted we might have been by the war, we could claim to have had the unchallenged moral leadership of the world. We were in a tremendous position to make a contribution to conditions of security, plenty, freedom and equality between the nations. Do hon. Members on both sides of the House think we still hold that leadership today after a year and a quarter of the Government being in office? I would like to ask the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite if they are quite confident that, when the time comes, they are going to hand on that great inheritance intact.
8.15 p.m.
Mr. Tiffany: During the past 12 months there have been many occasions when we marched through the Division Lobbies feeling that we were laying the foundations of a new system of society in this country. Time after time we went through those Division Lobbies in exaltation, singing "The Red Flag" and thinking of the pioneers who paved the way in order that we could carry through the work. Time after time we felt that we were doing a worthwhile job in our own country, and much of the work done during the past 12 months has received the wholehearted support of hon. Members on these benches.
But when we cease to look at the policy we have been conducting at home and look at affairs in foreign fields, our hearts begin to drop a little, and we wonder where abroad is the Socialism that we are practising at home. More often does it appear to be the case when one looks at the situation in Greece. Actually there is nothing remarkable about the fact that we have not made a success in Greece when it is recognised that the policy we have carried out there is the policy that was initiated by the National Government; the policy that, as was stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood-ford (Mr. Churchill) this afternoon, was carried on by the Caretaker Government, and even he stated today that we are continuing that policy. As a matter of fact, speaking in this House last June the Leader of the Opposition said:
"In Greece the course of events has vindicated the policy of the National Coalition Government. This policy in the main has been followed by the present Government."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th June, 1946; Vol. 423 c. 2015.]

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In the eyes of the Tories there may have been vindication but in the eyes of many Socialists there is definitely accusation and not vindication. In Greece we have had a policy that has resulted in the destruction of many of the liberties of the trade unions and in tortures of the people, whilst many of the liberties for which we were supposed to fight in the last war are disappearing, and Acts passed under the Metaxas dictatorship are being reimposed once again on the Greek people.
Let us cast back our minds to practically 12 months ago and see the policy that was initiated at that time by our own Foreign Secretary; a policy to which I myself, to a large extent, gave full support, for it raised my hopes that if it were carried out in Greece we should have some hope eventually of a more peaceful situation in that country than there is at present. What did the Foreign Secretary say in this House, speaking in the foreign affairs Debate last November? He made this statement:
"The Regent informed me that he had decided to tell the political leaders in Greece that, in the interests of Greek unity, the plebiscite must, in his view, be postponed for three years. …"
Then the Foreign Secretary went on to say:
"I, therefore, suggested to the Regent that instead of adopting his proposal, which dealt only with the date of the plebiscite, he should lay before the Greek politicians the following programme and stick to it. …"
Here you have a remarkable fact, that when Greece is mentioned nowadays we are told that we have no right to interfere in the internal affairs of another country; yet here is the Foreign Secretary himself interfering in the affairs of. Greece, instructing the Regent that the plebiscite should not be postponed for three years but that "the following programme" should operate, and that the political leaders should "stick to it."
What was that programme? This is how the Foreign Secretary stated it:
"First, elections to be held at the latest by the end of March, 1946;
Secondly, the plebiscite to be held in March, 1948;'
That was the programme which the Foreign Secretary of this country told the Regent to stick to. That programme has not been carried out, particularly the second part. Why? Why did the Foreign
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Secretary ask that the plebiscite should be held in March, 1948? A little later in his speech he said:
"… I was told that it I forced this issue of the institutional question before I got tranquillity in the country, I should run the danger of civil war, disturbances and economic disaster, and, God knows, Greece has had enough of that."
Surely every hon. Member on these benches supported the Foreign Secretary when he stated that that was the reason for demanding that the plebiscite should not take place until 1948. Every one of us agreed that the sentiments he expressed of the dangers and difficulties in which Greece found itself were sufficient to show that the plebiscite should be delayed for two years. I am convinced that every one of us on this bench gave our support to the Foreign Secretary when he made that statement. He went on:
"When the head of a State is to be elected, a country ought to be in such a tranquil state, and as prosperous as possible, that judgment, and not prejudice and starvation, should be the guide. I have by this decision tried to get Greece on to a basis where the question of the monarchy could be decided on its merits, without any influence at all either way. …"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd November. 1945: Vol. 416, c. 768, 773 and 774.]
Remember the conditions in which the plebiscite was carried out. Was it carried out under the conditions which he laid down in that speech? Was the country in "a tranquil state" and "as prosperous as possible," and was "judgment and not prejudice" applied in the selection when the plebiscite took place?
Let us look at the events leading up to that matter. I am reminded of the statement made by the ex-Prime Minister of Greece, a Liberal, M. Sofianopoulos, when he told me that because he did not support the Royalists, he, like others of the Centre Parties and of the Left, was being termed a Communist. In Athens he told us:
"I informed your Foreign Secretary that it he compelled me to push through the election in March of this year, that the ultimate result, the undeniable result, of that election would be a return of the Right Wing forces, the return of a Right Wing Government, and that the first thing that Government would demand would be the return of the King. I informed your Foreign Secretary of this situation. Your Foreign Secretary replied, I must push ahead with the elections and under no consideration would the plebiscite be taken until 1948. Because of that agreement, in spite of the statements made by my colleagues in the Cabinet, because I had that assurance

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from your Foreign Secretary, I pushed forward with the elections knowing full well that the result would be the return of a Right Wing Government. I know your Foreign Secretary is a man of honour. When you return to your country, ask him it he remembers me. It he does not remember me, ask him if he remembers the agreement we arrived at that a plebiscite should not be held until 1948, and if he has any love for my country of Greece, ask him if he will stick to that agreement made with me."
We know the agreement was not kept and that statement made in this House in November last year by the Foreign Secretary has not been kept but was departed from. As a result of the departure from that policy we have seen the position in Greece deterioriate day by day.
I was remarkably struck yesterday by an interjection by the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude) when an hon. Member on this side was speaking about the action of Sir Charles Wickham in the Police Mission. The hon. and learned Member asked who had made the statement that we were responsible for a gendarmerie and police in Greece. I have before me a written answer given on 10th October by our Foreign Secretary and this is what he stated in relation to the Police Mission—and remember what applies to the Police Mission applies also to the Economic Mission and the Military Mission. The Foreign Secretary said—
Mr. David Renton: Before the hon. Member goes further, we should know exactly what was said when the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Maude) interrupted. In the OFFICIAL REPORT of yesterday's Debate, we read:
"Mr. MAUDE (Exeter): Is the hon. Gentleman telling the House that Sir Charles Wickham has been recruiting members of the Greek gendarmerie?
Mr. WILKES: That is exactly what I do say.
Mr. MAUDE: On what authority?
Mr. WILKES: On the authority of two Members of this House.
HON. MEMBERS: Who?
Mr. WILKES: On the authority of two Members of the House and of officers with whom I served for nearly a year in Greece, and who later became members of the police mission in Greece. I am not making political propaganda, or retailing newspaper reports. I had a year in Greece. …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd Oct, 1946; Vol. 427, c. 1603.]
I suggest to the hon. Member that it is important to remember the actual words of the question.
Mr. Tiffany: It is exactly to that point I am referring. I will further emphasise the statement that was then made by the written reply that was given by the Foreign Secretary on 10th October, 1945. He said:
"By agreement with the Greek Government, the British Police Mission have full powers of organisation and administration in the Greek Police Force and Gendarmerie, including such questions as appointments, promotions and transfers. …"
Is there anything more definite than that? Then, however, the Foreign Secretary begins to give himself a loophole by stating that the ultimate responsibility—I take it the ultimate responsibility for what happens as a result of the organisation we have given to the police force—
"rests with the Greek Government."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th October, 1945; Vol. 414, c. 239.]
I suggest quite clearly that the ultimate responsibility for Greece rests with the Government of this country.
Mr. Osborne: Is the "natural deduction of all this that the hon. Member is calling for the resignation of the Foreign Secretary?
Mr. Tiffany: What I am calling for is for the operation of a Socialist policy, and not a Tory policy. If the hon. Member had listened to what I said at the outset, he would have realised that I pointed out that the policy being carried out in Greece is a Tory policy, as stated by the Leader of the Opposition. I am asking that we should depart from that policy and institute one of our own.
Brigadier Prior-Palmer rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Young): There are two or three hon. Members who wish to speak. These interruptions are not assisting to give them an opportunity in the time left for discussion.
Mr. Tiffany: I do not mind the interjections, except that I have not a great deal of time. We have seen the result of the British Police Mission in Greece. We have seen a gendarmerie and a police force set up that was Royalist and partisan in character, that was absolutely biassed against any Centre parties or against any Left Wing parties. As a result, we have seen members of the Centre and Left parties being beaten and maltreated by the gendarmerie of Greece.

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That is the result of the British Police Mission. There have been similar results in relation to the Military Mission.
Let us see what has happened generally in this situation. We have seen the introduction of Acts which were in operation in the days of the Metaxas Government. We have seen the introduction of the "Extraordinary Measures" under which many trade unionists have been tried, and where, by a single deposition by one gendarme is sufficient to cause the imprisonment or deportation of any member of a trade union. As a result of that we have seen that how many officials of trades councils particularly in the North of Greece, have been deported to the Islands. We have also seen that nearly one-third of the total who have been banished as the result of the Security Committees have been women and children. It is an acknowledged fact that the conditions are far from satisfactory on these Islands, where these trade unionists and women and children are and that even a Red Cross official has stated that they are not satisfactory, but that, unfortunately, he can do nothing whatever about it
Let us look a little further in relation to the fact that our troops are situated in Greece. I sometimes wonder if there are no strategic reasons why we are in Greece. I suggest, and the right hon. Member for Woodford has suggested, that there were no strategic reasons why we were in Greece. They said it was merely because of friendship for that country. I doubt that very much. If it is that there are no strategic reasons, I would like to ask why our troops are situated there. This question has been asked in this House time after time. Why are British troops stationed there? Let us consider one answer which was given on 27th March. It was that the British troops would be withdrawn as soon after the election as conditions allowed, but there are certain conditions that must be fulfilled. We have never yet learned what those conditions are. Are those conditions to be found in the statement made by the Minister of Health on 19th January, 1945, when he said that we sent British troops to Greece to satisfy the political ambitions of the Tory Party. Was the Minister of Health on that occasion incorrect? If his statement was correct is the situation that those troops
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must remain in Greece until we can satisfy the ambitions of the party opposite? We are now at a stage where civil war is rampant in Northern Greece. I have here a cutting from the "New York Herald Tribune" of 9th October or a report sent from London by a reporter named Ned Russell. It states:
"Greeks ask Britain for more arms. Greece has asked Britain for more arms to equip Government forces battling the so-called 'Communist bands' in what is officially described as 'a small scale civil war,' the Foreign Office disclosed today. At the same time "—
And this is rather remarkable—
"the Foreign Office spokesman reaffirmed that British troops in Greece, estimated at about 15,000, might intervene in the struggle on the side of the Greek Government 'in the last resort' and if the Greek Government requested their aid."
If that is the situation in Greece, that our boys are going to be asked to intervene in a struggle which is undoubtedly taking place, then I suggest we have gone quite far enough. The majority of people, particularly those whose husbands and sons are with the Forces in Greece, will be the first to demand that the blood of the British soldier should not be spilt on Greek battlefields as a result of the civil war there. They will be the first to demand that they should be withdrawn. I ask that we break away from this policy which we have been pursuing. The right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), speaking in the House on 20th February, said:
"On Greece, my friends "—
That was a reference to hon. Members on the Opposition Benches—
"are equally in agreement with the position taken by the Foreign Secretary."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th February. 1946; Vol. 419, c. 1160.]
I want to see a breakaway from this agreement. I want the Government to change their policy instead of supporting the Right, as we are supporting the Right, and, as a result, seeing the destruction of the Centre and the Social Democrat forces in Greece. It might be argued that it is fear of Communism which is driving us along the path we have taken. Because of the fact that the majority of the peasants in Greece already own their own land and their house, such as it is, I suggest that Communism has no great appeal under normal circumstances; nor is Communism very strong in the industrial cities except where there are a number of

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factories. It is undoubtedly true that they have their sympathisers and that they are very energetic, as they are in this country, but Communism, as such, would never have been a great force inside Greece. Nor are the Greek people Slavs. Their outlook was not towards the Soviet Union. It was not in that direction; their outlook was always, not towards Russia, but towards our own country.
What are we doing as the result of the policy which we are carrying out? We are throwing the people of Greece into the hands of the Communists. We are failing them and disappointing them in our own foreign policy, and the only alternative left to them, in their efforts against their present form of government, is to look towards the Soviet Union. We are doing the very thing which the Foreign Secretary has always tried to avoid—driving them further and further East. If we took a policy which was more in line with the policy of the Labour Party in this country, and built and worked on Socialist democratic lines to build up trade unions, instead of smashing them, if we were working on the lines on which the Foreign Secretary has so often worked in the past, I am convinced that we should overcome the troubles facing us there at the present time.
After listening to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, in which he made his call to the Government Benches for discussion on the question of the number of divisions of the Red Army—I think the number was 200—I felt enormously depressed. I began to feel that, after all, the only thing we seem to be able to look forward to in this country, and, indeed, in other countries, is preparation for war, and that, just ahead of us, there is another war looming, while deep suspicion exists between three great nations. Let us not hide the fact that there is suspicion with which we are all regarding ourselves while we are building up defences against the next war. Personally, I do not believe that there will be another war for 10 or 15 years, but I do know this—that what we are doing now will decide whether there will be a war or not at the end of 10 or 15 years. If we can get the democratic and Socialist forces in Europe to align themselves with us, if we can build up and work out a Socialist foreign policy, just as we have been able to build up and are working out a Socialist policy in this
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country, we shall then lay the foundations, not only of the prosperity of our own country, but of future peace throughout the world.
8.38 p.m.
Colonel Wheatley: I have listened, I think, to every speech made in this House today, and I am hoping that we, in this country, have got as good friends in the Soviet Union as Soviet Russia has in this House. I would like to say to the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Tiffany), who referred to the present suspicion between nations, that he himself, throughout the whole of his speech, threw suspicion on the Foreign Secretary and the way he was carrying out his policy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Quite right."] I am not going to attack anybody, hon. Members opposite or the Foreign Minister or any other country, but I would like, if there is time, to say a few words about Austria.
I was very much in agreement with the remarks of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), regarding displaced persons. When I was in Austria, I was very much struck with the problem that faces Foreign Ministers over these displaced persons. I could not for the life of me see what the solution of that great problem could be. It seemed almost insoluble, and I sympathise very much with the Foreign Ministers of this and other countries who must, somehow or other deal with this very difficult situation. I was also pleased to hear, in the course of the Foreign Minister's speech yesterday, the views of His Majesty's Government on the necessity of removing all foreign troops from Austria. Until all foreign troops and the quadripartite organisation are moved out of Austria, I cannot see that that country is ever going to recover to any extent. That organisation, necessary as it may have been at the end of the war, should now come to an end, and if the Foreign Minister could only persuade the other members of the quadripartite arrangement to move out of Austria, I am sure it would be a great benefit to that country and to everybody else.
For a few minutes I wish to focus the attention of this House on another part of the world. I am disappointed that time did not permit of the Foreign Secretary expanding his speech on the Middle East. Nobody will dispute the assertion that the Middle East is the sheet anchor of our

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Commonwealth communications, and, indeed, of our whole position in the world I was very glad that he assured us that His Majesty's Government are going to continue our traditional friendship with the Arabs. I do not know that the Arabs particularly like us, hut they trust us and recognise our integrity of purpose, our toleration and obvious desire for their well being and prosperity.
I know that the Foreign Minister was rather tied in talking about Egypt in view of the consultations now taking place in London, but I wish to impress upon the House that, although Egypt has been making a lot of trouble and that riots have taken place, we should not allow that situation to weigh with us too much. The riots are really of a political nature, not so much against us as against their own Government. It may seem curious to us in this country that, when the Egyptians have an election, they do not seem to worry very much about the domestic policy of the different parties, but rather to concentrate on foreign affairs and, particularly, on the question of the occupying Power, as we were a few years ago. Having got rid of the occupying Power and regained their independence, they now turn to another stick with which to beat the Government—the question of the Sudan. The Egyptians recognise all that we have done for them and how we brought them back from bankruptcy to prosperity under those great pro-Consuls, Lord Cromer and Lord Kitchener. Indeed, they are very grateful for the marvellous irrigation system instituted in that country thanks largely to the engineering genius of my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness (Sir M. MacDonald) when he was responsible for the irrigation service in Egypt.
But this cry for unity of the Nile and for the suzerainty of the Sudan is entirely political, in order to bring worry and trouble to the present Government. It is a parrot cry. The Egyptians do not want the Sudan for themselves. They do not like the Sudan or service in it. In fact, when it was proposed to colonise parts of the Sudan by sending up Egyptian peasants, that proposal did not meet with much success. When the peasants concerned arrived at the Wadi Haifa, which is the frontier town, a train full of wild animals, destined for some zoo or other, happened to be coming down
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at that time. The peasants asked where the animals came from, and when they were informed that they came from the Sudan, they said, "That is no place for us," and the whole scheme fell through. That may sound a fantastic tale, but it is quite true. These facts are not known generally, and I commend them to those people who talk about the "poor Egyptians" and ask why they should not be allowed to go to the Sudan.
I would like to reinforce the appeal made yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) that whatever happens, the question of the Sudan will not be raised during the negotiations. The Sudan will never tolerate any domination by Egypt. My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury said he did not believe that one per cent. of the Sudanese would like to renew connections with Egypt. I will go so far as to say that not .001 per cent. of the Sudanese would agree to the Egyptians returning to the Sudan. There is no doubt that much of the agitation in the Sudan, including those so-called deputations who went to Cairo, which suggested they were anxious that the Egyptians should return to the Sudan, were actuated by only one desire, namely, to turn us out, if possible, and to have the country for themselves. They do not wish to have the Egyptians there. They may welcome the assistance of the Egyptians, but they would turn them out when the Egyptians had served their purpose. I would urge hon. Members not to listen to those few people, the intelligentsia, who have been talking about self-determination, because the first thing that would happen would be that the Arab tribes in the distant parts of the country would soon come into the centre of the Sudan—to Khartoum, for instance—and would drive out these young intelligentsia who think they are able to run the Sudan.
I do not wish to detain the House any longer, but I could continue for some time explaining the difficulties of the Sudan. We are dealing with a country which is as big as Europe, less Russia, and it is not populated all over, but large parts are desert and so forth. It is no use thinking that the country has any attraction for the Egyptians. They have only one excuse for asking for some control in the Sudan, and that is the question of water. It is obvious that as long as we are in the Sudan they will have no

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difficulty in getting water. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, to give us a definite assurance that he will not appease any of the Egyptian negotiators by allowing the question of the alteration of the status of the Sudan to be raised, with a view to facilitating the negotiations.
8.50 p.m.
Mr. S. N. Evans: Never in the long, creditable history of our nation has any British statesman been faced with such a plethora of problems, and such a depleted armoury with which to meet them, as the present Foreign Secretary. As we have for the second time in 30 years poured out our blood and treasure in a common cause this is not surprising, of course. We shall come again, but meanwhile there is a difficult transition period of recuperation. In this period there will have to be a long-term strategy and short-term tactics. I support the tactics employed for the last 15 months. Peeping into the future, however, were my French less deplorable I might be tempted to hazard the comment Autres temps, autres mœurs. During the Debate much has been said about Greece, and I can well understand misgivings. But foreign policy is a diamond with many facets, and in a period of power politics unparalleled in our time— and that is what we are living through— you cannot consider any one facet, as it were, in a vacuum.
Much has been said also about the continuity of British foreign policy. The hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) went so far as to say that the Government's policy is a Tory foreign policy, that we are ganging up against the Soviet, and that as a result we are becoming the most hated nation in Europe. That, of course, is just plain hysterical nonsense. Anyone who has been in Europe, and in Russian occupied South-Eastern Europe, will know that Britain's prestige was never higher than at this moment. All Europe is watching this British Socialist Government, and looking to the time when the Russians will get out, and enable them to emulate the policies which are being pursued in this country by this Government. If anybody has any doubts about that, let them study the evidence of the elections. Make no mistake about it, free elections will not be held in Poland,
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because everybody knows that Miko-lajczyk's party would "walk it": that is why free elections are not being held, and that is why they will not be held. The seed of British democracy in Europe, falls on very fertile ground. The peasants and the workers, far from being immature, as they have been described, have a very lively political consciousness. With regard to this continuity of British foreign policy, the basic needs of the British people do not change every time there is a transference of political power. Whatever the political colour of the Government of the day, their prime concern must be the security, feeding and clothing of the 47 million people who live in these islands.
Turning to our relations with America, let me say, quite bluntly, that when I am convalescing I do not fall out with the fellow who provides the beef tea. Because there is no glamour attached to it, this economic side of foreign affairs is very seldom looked at. Yet it has to be pointed out, that whereas Russia and the United States have coal, wheat, cotton, copper, timber, manganese—all they need to clothe and feed themselves and to furnish their industries—this country's only raw material is coal; and because of that all other commodities have to come from abroad. In these circumstances the sea lanes between the nations of the Commonwealth and Empire become of paramount importance, and when the Foreign Secretary speaks of a nation getting across the throat of the British people, he is speaking no empty rhetoric but making a plain statement of fact.
In the field of foreign relations the outstanding phenomena of the last 15 months have been threefold. The first outstanding thing is the continuing and implacable hostility of the Politbureau to the British Socialist Government; the second is the progressive decline in European good will for the Soviet Union; and the third is the growth of Catholic influence on the Continent of Europe. They are related. There is not much time, otherwise I should like to touch on all three of those matters. No one in his right mind can doubt the desirability of amity and collaboration between the British people and the Soviet Union, but amity and cooperation are a two-way, not a one-way street: and ever since this Government came to power there has been

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nothing but undisguised hostility shown. The Soviet Press and radio—[Interruption.] Oh, let hon. Members enjoy themselves.
Mrs. Leah Manning: We are.
Mr. Evans: By Press and radio and by other means a constant stream of vilification, invective and abuse has been hurled at the heads of the elected representatives of the British people. The hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith says that the Soviet Press is moderate and reasonable; he says that there is no abuse of Britain in Russia. But "Pravda" on Monday, speaking of India and of the religious conflict between Hindus and Muslims, said:
"Behind the fierce religious conflict is the sinister shadow of British imperialism, banking on a deadlock arising that would make a dead letter of all British plans to withdraw from India."
That is what it said and it is a wicked lie. It is a malicious invention designed to deceive the Russian people—
Mr. Stokes: And the Indians, too.
Mr. Evans: —as to the aims and objects of the British Government in regard to India. As it is well known that every time Stalin sneezes the Polish Government catches cold, what M. Jacob Berman, a Communist member of that administration, says is not without significance:
"We must fight with all the means at our disposal for a workers' and peasants' republic in Palestine."
That explains a lot. To get a correct perspective in this matter of foreign affairs, it is necessary to examine the motives actuating the Politbureau. Quite obviously they do not like this Government. They do not like it because its policies provide a rival ideology, a competitor, for the hearts and minds of 250 million Europeans, workers and peasants, who, far from being immature, have, as I have said, a very lively political consciousness. After all, what is it we are trying to do here? At the same time as we maintain our political democracy, the right to meet in our pubs and clubs and at the street corner, there to criticise anybody and everybody from the Prime Minister downwards without let or hindrance, without fear of a Gestapo, Ogpu or any other infernal instrument of
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repression; at the same time as we maintain a free Press and the secret ballot with a choice of candidates; at the same time as we preserve this priceless heritage we are seeking to evolve in this country an economic system that will ensure the means of life to all willing to work, and their dependants irrespective of whether work is available or not irrespective of whether they are incapacitated from work by illness injury or old age. That is what we are trying to do—the greatest social experiment the world has ever seen. It is a formidable competitor let us be quite frank about it but it is a pity that the gentlemen of the Politbureau look at it in that light.
The decline of Russian prestige and influence in Europe, which is very considerable as all know who have been there, is due very largely to the policy defended by Marshal Stalin in March of this year, when he said:
"The Germans made their invasion of Russia through Finland, Poland, Roumania, Bulgaria and Hungary. The Soviet Union, anxious for its safety, is trying to see to it that governments loyal in their attitude to the Soviet Union should exist in those countries."
This is naked power politics and nothing else, but, for the same reasons, since the Nazis came within 20 miles of Dover, are we not entitled to demand in Norway, Belgium, France and Holland Governments subservient to us? If the argument is a logical one, I suggest that we are. But this is the road to nowhere. Cromwell imposed a régime on Ireland 300 years ago, and the Irish were a thorn in our side for the whole of those 300 years. It may well be that the Soviet Union, far from placing a security belt around itself, is in fact creating a series of Irelands right on its doorstep—and if anyone doubts that, let him watch events in Poland very closely
I am sorry it is so late because there are many things I feel I would like to say. In these days of atomic bombs, bacteriological warfare with clouds of germs dropping from the sky, rocket explosives and airborne armies, security cannot be found by imposing stooge régimes on countries adjacent to Russia, nor by some harmonious arrangement of frontiers based on rivers and the like. It can only be found in good neighbourliness, by conceding freedom and equality to all the nations around by full and equal partnership. It must be said that

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many who fought in the resistance movements now find that freedom means freedom for a very small minority, but for the politically articulate remainder, silence—or else. A Litvinov foreign policy since the armistice would have brought the Russians the moral leadership of the world.
It is a tragedy for Europe that such a policy has not been followed. As long as this icy blast continues to arrive from the steppes, no one must be surprised if I seek shelter. If the shelter turns out to be a Church, and its name is St. Peter s, that is still all right with me. In this period of storm, rain and thunder, when thunderbolts are hurtling down, if someone comes along with an umbrella and says "Get underneath," I am not bothered if the umbrella is made in Wall Street. When this icy blast abates I shall come out of the shelter, and I shall not feel obligated for the rest of my life to the proprietors of the church or the umbrella [AN HON. MEMBER: "Political morality"?]. Meanwhile it is a very hard world, friend. The British people are fine people who have made a greater contribution to the progress of mankind than any other people. That being so I believe it to be in the interests of the common people everywhere that Britain should continue to wield influence, second to none, in matters of world social and economic import. It is because I believe that the policy being pursued by the British Foreign Secretary and the British Socialist Government will lead to that end, that it has my support.
9.7 p.m.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: For a few moments I should like to follow what has been said by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) I do not think there is any disagreement on any side with his final remarks. The British people are a fine people. On the whole, I think, the overwhelming majority of this House is in favour of the general line being pursued by the right hon. Gentleman, and would also agree that any attempts made by Members of this House, from any side, when they go overseas to denigrate the Foreign Secretary's stature and undermine his prestige are attempts to undermine the prestige of the British people in the world today. I believe that the whole country look with very little respect on those very few unfortunate Members of this House who
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allow their opinions and personal feelings to carry them away in their criticism of the man who speaks for the country and has to take a strong line at the present time for the country. I must refer to what has been said in the course of the Debate on the policy of the Government as regards Greece. Over and over again, we have heard it said that the right hon. Gentleman is merely carrying on the policy of previous Governments, and that he is applying a Tory mentality to these matters.
I have made no secret of the fact that I am not in support of those who sit on the Government Front Bench, but I must say that I do not care who initiated that policy, because it is essentially a British policy, based essentially on a very fundamental British point of view. That is, that we are out to see fair play done, and that anybody who stands in the way of any attempts we make to see that done is not acting in the British sense. I do not think we need go further than that.
One other point. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary spoke about the problem of publicity attaching to the recent Conference in Paris. Quite obviously, the publicity attached to any international conference carries with it, to my mind, very grave danger. But, equally, there are many great advantages that can accrue if that publicity is fair and if, as a result of it, we encourage more people to think in commonsense terms about our foreign policy. In the past, I have felt many times that there was far too much mumbo-jumbo about foreign difficulties and international affairs, and that the more we could explode the idea that there was some sort of trick which Governments, in turn, could apply, which they could produce out of some secret box, the better it would be for all people. On the other hand, one cannot help feeling that if there is to be publicity, direct and immediate—and in a matter of minutes a speech can be reported over the air in this country—that publicity must also be followed up by explanations as to what exactly is the meaning of the statements which have been made. I do not think that at the present stage, either in this country or elsewhere, the bulk of the population is yet in a sufficient state of understanding to realise the meaning and true implication of some of the statements made at

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these conferences, unless they are explained to them. Without an explanation, I think we are positively heading towards a very dangerous state of affairs.
I would have liked to enlarge on that point, but I merely ask those who are handling those matters, and who have to decide how much should be said in public and how much in private, how much can be done in private and in secret, with no dirty implication in the term "Secret," to bear in mind that all the peoples of the world are not fully instructed in these matters, which must be explained if they are to understand them.
9.14 p.m.
Mr. Oliver Stanley: We are coming now towards the close of what has been a long and interesting, and important, Debate. One of the most striking features of the Debate has been the number of speeches which have been made by Members who have had recent personal experience of the particular country about which they were speaking. I cannot help feeling that that must be of benefit to our discussions in this House. I must confess that I have not had myself, recently, that advantage, and that it will be impossible for me to enliven my speech by references to the last time I was in Belgrade, or what the Minister of the Interior said to me, or, as has been more usual, what I said to the Minister of the Interior.
The Debate was opened by a long and careful review by the Foreign Secretary, in which he visited nearly every part of the world and, I think, exposed, as fully as everyone in the House desired, both our aims and his actions in all the problems that he has to meet. I believe that that speech—that review—met with a great amount of support from both sides of the House. He has had, of course, his critics, but the criticisms have come largely from the benches behind him. It is not for me to estimate either their quantity or quality, and it would certainly be advisable for me to leave the reply to them to the Minister of State. We have already been warned of the damage which has been done to Ferdinand the Bull, as the Foreign Secretary was described by Members of this House, by continually offering him flowers.
There was one point which was rather interesting to me in the speech made
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yesterday by the hon. Member for Fins-bury (Mr. Platts-Mills). I think something on the same lines was said later by the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt). The hon. Member for Finsbury made the accusation which we, on this side of the House, have heard so often. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary was, we were told, in the grip of Wall Street and the City of London. The hon. Member said that he could see standing behind the Foreign Secretary—although how anyone could see anyone standing behind the Foreign Secretary, I do not know—the sinister forms of Mr. Morgan and Mr. Dupont. I leave that to hon. Members on the other side of the House, who have known the Foreign Secretary and his record for a very long time. If that sort of thing is said about him, as it was said about us, then it is time that the people of the country understood that that means, in the jargon of certain political people, that they do not agree with the man who is taking action.
I certainly feel that the Foreign Secretary exposed with great sincerity the key of his foreign policy—the key of the national foreign policy, which one could call a Socialist foreign policy OF a Tory foreign policy. But it is the key, I think, with which most of us would agree, and that is, that we want to allow, and want other people to allow, countries to adopt their own form and their own institutions; that we want no opposition to the adoption in any country of any ideology or any form of institution. What we are opposed to is the imposition of these ideologies, or these forms, by someone outside.
If the right hon. Gentleman, in his review, gave us every reason to support him for his past actions, I must confess that he did little to excite our hopes for the future. In almost every part of the world he had to point to grave problems which were still unsolved—Persia, the Dardanelles, Greece, the Balkans, the Danube, Austria and Germany—all with the same story. Wherever we look, we find division on these problems—problems of a wholly different character—yet the division is on exactly the same lines. could not help feeling that, taking those problems one by one, each of them might, by itself, be capable of solution, but that the position was that those problems to which the right hon. Gentleman referred

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were not the disease but merely the symptoms of the disease; they were the temperature, the feverishness, the sore throat, the ache in the limbs, and one could not cure those symptoms unless one could attack the disease itself. Every hon. Member who has taken part in this Debate has admitted and deplored the real disease, which is the suspicion and the misunderstanding that exist between the great Powers.
We believe that in the past six months the Foreign Secretary has stood up for not only the interests of this country but also for its beliefs, and we believe he was right to do so. We do not believe we would have gained anything, we do not believe we would have got nearer permanent peace, by a mere policy of surrender. Such a policy of surrender would merely have encouraged further demands which, in their turn, would have necessitated further concessions. Indeed, we think that on many occasions, under great provocation, the Foreign Secretary has shown considerable dignity and restraint. But when all that is said, all of us must be asking ourselves the question, Where, with all that, are we getting? For weeks and months the public of this country, on opening their newspapers in the morning, have seen as headline news the account of some international conference in some international capital. Whether it has been the meeting of the Foreign Ministers, whether it has been the Security Council, whether it has been the recent Conference on the Peace Treaties, whether in New York or Paris, we have read day after day the same speeches made by more or less the same people on the same topics, and always with more or less the same results. The effect is that the people of this country have been, I will not say lulled, but stunned almost, into a sense of false security, of feeling that this has. always been going on, and that it always can go on, that somehow or other the world can stagger on in this fashion, with a great deal of asperity, but without the risk of catastrophe.
The question we have all to put to our-selves is: Can that happen? Is not this like the disease with which I compared it before? It cannot remain static: unless it gets better it is almost bound to get worse, and we have got to a position where, if it is to get worse, it is difficult to see how it can end except in some final tragedy. The Prime Minister this after-
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noon, in his grave statement, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), in his equally gave question, did at any rate force the people of this country to face the background of sombre and urgent reality before which this dialectical drama has been played out for so many weeks. It is, indeed, a tragic situation. Every statesman in the world is proclaiming his desire for peace, and yet at the same time the world as a whole is in a vicious spiral, going on down the rungs of misunderstanding and quarrels to end none of us knows where, and indeed, there seems, unless we can break it, no alternative to catastrophe, which all of us must dread.
Of course, the consideration of how it may be possible to break this spiral must have been, and clearly is, the constant preoccupation of the Foreign Secretary. Many suggestions have been made as to how it might be done. Several hon. Gentlemen on the Benches opposite have said that it will come with an increase of the flowing tide of Socialism. That is what they look forward to—this flowing tide gradually becoming a sea which stretches from pole to pole. Then the whole world will be very peaceful and very wet—at least very wet. It would appear to an outsider, who looks only at the Socialist Party from without, that one fatal obstacle to this optimistic theory is the difference that exists as to what Socialism means. What is this Socialism which is going to spread from pole to pole? It does alter in different places and in different minds. There is the Lord President of the Council, for example; I do not doubt that in this country and in his own estimation he is really quite a Red, but if he went to Moscow—
Mr. McGovern: He would be a corpse.
Mr. Stanley: Not only a corpse, but a bourgeois capitalist corpse. Another suggestion I saw emanated from the right hon. and learned Attorney-General who, the newspapers have informed us, has recently been on this celebrated trip with the "Queen Elizabeth"—a sort of modern "Mayflower." He explained his plan to the Press and it was the simple one of asking Mr. Molotov to have a drink. That entertainment was going to lead to the establishment in future of firm and cordial relations. What a pity that that was not thought of before. It does seem

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so simple. It can only be the well known —if I may so call it—crypto-Crippsian austerity of the Foreign Secretary which has prevented him from thinking of it himself.
I am not going to make any suggestions to the Foreign Secretary. He bears the responsibility and he cannot be ignorant of the need. He must have turned and returned his mind to every expedient. I only intend to ask him a question. Does he think that in these conditions anything would be gained by a meeting of, say, the Big Four? We do remember times during the war, where the situation was difficult or relations were strained, when meetings of that kind did result in success, and at any rate it would give him the opportunity which has been denied to him for a considerable time of a discussion of these matters in private. All of us believe in open diplomacy and in the countries of the world knowing to what they are committed and what the problems are, but there do seem to be defects in this public, or indeed, publicised diplomacy, where every speech which, in any ordinary negotiation, would be merely a preliminary to be toned down and altered afterwards, becomes a sort of standard which has to be nailed to the mast and stuck to through thick and thin, and where plain speaking, which has to take place in international as well as in personal relationships, and which in the privacy of a conference room would be forgotten the next day, goes on permanent record to the perpetual poisoning of the relations of the two countries. I make no suggestions because I feel that to make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman as to his method of conducting these affairs would be in the nature of a censure on one whom we believe to be doing his best. I therefore put it merely in the form of a question.
Might I turn for a few minutes to some of the more specific points which have been raised in the course of the Debate? First of all, I would like to ask the Minister of State two minor questions which, if he cannot answer immediately, perhaps he would communicate to me at some future time. I can at least claim for these two questions that I shall be doing what I think most hon. Members in the House would consider impossible—I shall be referring to two parts of the world not yet
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touched upon in this Debate. The first is the question of Southern Schleswig. This is an obscure problem of which I -must confess I have not followed the details, but I was rather alarmed to meet some Danish friends the other day and to be told that as the result of this issue or problem or whatever we may call it, this country has gained a considerable amount of unpopularity in Denmark. All of us must have seen in this morning's papers a Danish Note on the subject which, though courteous in tone, would appear to be in fact a slight snub. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could tell the House how the situation actually stands.
The second question I want to ask is with regard to the "Trucial Sheiks." Hon. Members in all parts of the House know who the "Trucial Sheiks" are. They are the two Emirs of Koweit and Bahrein and the Sultan of Muscat, in the Persian Gulf. Up to now these territories have been administered by the Government of India. The effect, we imagine, of the new arrangements in India will be to terminate that situation, and we suppose that the responsibilities for these territories will be transferred to His Majesty's Government, possibly to the Foreign Office. We should be glad to know if that, in fact, is the case?
Several speakers have referred to Egypt, and I only want to reinforce the plea which has been made by many hon. Members that if, as would appear to be the case, the future of the Sudan is now forming part of these negotiations, the only consideration that His Majesty's Government should have in mind is the wishes and advantages of the Sudan people themselves and that nothing should be done in the course of negotiations to gain some other end which would prejudice their future and their interests.
The Foreign Secretary in his speech did not refer to Palestine, and I agree that this is not an occasion for a long discussion of that problem, but there are one or two things that I should like to say to His Majesty's Government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford in his speech this afternoon, foresaw the possibility that that mandate would have to be surrendered. I do not deny that that possibility exists, difficult as the course would be, but what we have to face at the moment is at any rate a

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last attempt to make the existing situation work. On this I have considerable sympathy with the Government. Anybody who has been Colonial Secretary and had any responsibility for Palestine must have considerable sympathy for anybody who succeeds him in that task. For the whole of this period the policy of the Government towards Palestine has been based upon a belief that it might be possible to secure American cooperation. All of us admit the immense advantage which would accrue if it were possible, without damping the generous desires of the United States, to make them at the same time realise the practical difficulties—
Mr. Sydney Silverman: Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me to interrupt?
Mr. Stanley: I am speaking to a very strict limit, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman would excuse me. If we could get them to cooperate in a solution which, while it could not pretend to meet in full the demands of any, might at any rate represent the fairest solution for all concerned. It appears to many of us that that hope, upon which the Government have acted for the past year, is now doomed to disappointment. We do not blame the Government in any way for that. It is no good entering into recriminations; it would do no good either to the Palestine problem or to our relations with America. Again I say that we do not feel the Government can be blamed for any breakdown there has been. I only want to make this point. We discussed this subject last at the beginning of August. At that time appeals were made to the Government from every side of the House for speed in this problem. It was impressed on them that the longer the solution was delayed the more difficult it would become, the more definite would be the reactions against any solution proposed. Here we are in the middle of October, still nothing settled, still a prospect of further delay. We beg the Government, with all their difficulties, to come to a decision of their own as soon as possible, to announce it, and to give this House a chance of supporting it.
A great part of this Debate has been devoted to the question of Germany. It has been obvious, both from Debates and from Questions in this House, that for a long time the position in the British zone
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has been creating more and more anxiety among hon. Members in all parts of the House, and certainly that anxiety was crystallized in the speech made recently by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was speaking, I suppose as usual, with a song in his heart but, as he was speaking at a bankers' dinner, he presumably had something more substantial in other parts of his anatomy. The right hon. Gentleman made a rather curious speech. He set out all the difficulties, all the grievances from which our taxpayers suffer, all that there is to be put right. He left out only one thing, and that was what remedy he proposed. I must confess that had I been in the audience, I should have been tempted at the end to ask, "And so what"?—although, of course, a banking audience is accustomed to a rather more dignified diction than that. To some extent that omission has been repaired by the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. I was glad to hear the part of his speech which was devoted to the future of Germany. It seemed to me that we had to face up, and face up quickly, to three questions.
The first one was, What was our objective in Germany? The second, What methods were we to adopt? The third was, Is our machine properly adapted to the objective and to the method?' I think that the right hon. Gentleman has given an answer to the first question— that of objective. We know it is not the policy, as some thought and as some might have suspected, to seek our security in the future by keeping the people of Germany in such a state of physical starvation and mental hopelessness that they would present no danger, and that we look for our security, which we must have, in more specific and more selective control rather than mass deprivations of that character. That I think is our great aim, and we are glad to hear it. But to answer that question without answering the other two, will merely be to express a pious hope. It is no good saying that that is our objective in Germany unless we have the methods and machine by which to carry it out.
There is clearly not time this evening to go into the details of these questions. I would only make this one point. In regard to the methods, I understand that in the days of the war when candidates for the military Government of Germany were in training, the thesis before them

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was that it was an accepted fact that we could never have enough trained personnel necessary to administer the British zone in Germany, nor could such personnel have the local knowledge. Therefore, it was a cardinal point of their policy that we should concentrate on indirect control and leave direct administration to the Germans. I think we have departed, from all I hear, a long way from those early principles during 'the last few months. Our control is descending into administrative details such as the allocation of supplies to individual factories which tested this country when we had an immense number of people we could call upon to carry out a detailed administration of this kind. I hope that we can get back to the original idea of exercising an indirect control and allowing the Germans to run the administrative details for themselves.
The third question is just as important, that of machinery. We have these new objectives and new methods, and must have the machinery to deal with them. I am not satisfied that the present machinery, at any rate on the economic side, does answer those requirements. Is it so flexible that it can in fact give a definite answer quickly to matters of economic policy? On the economic side, whatever may be the case on the administrative and security side, we might just as well have a bad decision or no decision at all, as have a decision which takes a long time to arrive at. I hope we shall have further opportunities of discussing these points, and that we shall get to my three questions as satisfactory an answer from the Government on the last two as I think they have already given on the first.
In conclusion, all of us know that the Foreign Secretary will in a few days be off on his travels again. During the course of his speech, in which, as I say, he touched on many parts of the world, he referred once to "New Britain." I was a little confused at the moment because that rather small country in the Pacific did not seem to fit in to his argument. But, I realised he was not talking in geographical language, but political jargon. The right hon. Gentleman must sometimes sigh for the old Britain when a Foreign Secretary was occasionally left in his own office and given an opportunity to think out the problems
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which pressed in on him from all sides. Certainly when the Foreign Secretary goes in a few days he will go with our good wishes and with the hope of the whole of this country that this new series of meetings on which he embarks will prove less and in their consequences than those of the past and that something may emerge from them which will lighten the deep shadow which now darkens over our heads.
9.44 p.m.
The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): There has been a large range of questions addressed to me, and the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley), who wound up for the other side, proved himself no exception to the rule of the Debate in this respect. I wish to deal with his main questions, but before doing so, may I say that I will take time to find out the answer to the question about the three Sheiks, which I do not know offhand. As to the South Schleswig question, I am on much firmer ground, and would like to dispose of any suggestion that the Danish reply is in any way a snub. Some considerable time ago we addressed, after discussion, a perfectly friendly Note to that Government suggesting that if they wanted frontier rectification we should quickly know about it, and it would be quickly agreed upon. They have replied saying that they do not wish for a rectification of the frontier. Therefore, it was not meant as a snub. The worst difficulties of the other main question, that is, of the Danish speaking minority there, have been got over.
The second question addressed to me was on Palestine. I frankly welcome the tact and delicacy of the House in not developing this subject, or the subject of Egypt, while both are under negotiation. Perhaps I might answer the two points, one raised by the right hon. Gentleman on Palestine, and the other raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. First, my right hon. Friend is not yet persuaded that the possibility of American cooperation in this area has receded completely. Secondly, though as I indicated, I do not want to discuss the subject in detail, my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State for the Colonies are not as pessimistic as the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition. They will continue their task as we have

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planned; they will exert every care, as they have done all along, and they will continue to hope and try so that an accommodation upon this question may yet be reached.
The other two questions addressed to me by the right hon. Gentleman on Germany can both be shortly answered. It is true that there has been a shortage of personnel, but the House must appreciate that we have had a constant conflict —people saying, "Let the Germans themselves do the job," and other people saying at the same time, "Make sure that no one is left with even the most trivial charge, if they have a Nazi background." We have, therefore, had to try to achieve a middle way on this point. The other point about the flexibility of the economic machinery is, I agree, one which is most important, and it is enjoying the study of the Government just now. Such modifications as we conclude are necessary to meet the objections will be made.
I am, of course, cheered to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he hoped there would be answers on these two points, as acceptable as that given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the other. The right hon. Gentleman's joy at that answer of my right hon. Friend was not quite shared by all other Members on his own side of the House. There seemed to be some objection to the socialisation of the heavy industries. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition suggested that that was being forced upon the German people. I suggest that that is not quite accurate. First of all, such consultations as are possible, will be taken; and, secondly, if we may make any deductions from the election results in Germany it is quite clear that the people are not altogether unacquainted with the doctrines of social democracy, nor do they find them unpalatable. Moreover, if anyone on the other side of the House objects to this procedure of vesting these heavy industries temporarily in our Command, and eventually in the German people, let them be frank about the alternative method they offer. The alternative method is to let these industries revert to Krupp and his successors, the people who forged the weapons of war for Hitler, and before that for Hitler's predecessors. I make no apology, nor would the Government, of
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course, for this proposal to socialise. History and, apparently, the wishes of the German people upon this point, are both on our side.
I turn to another question which seemed to excite a good deal of attention and has been of sustained delicacy in this House for some time, and that is the question of Greece. I want to make it plan that we are not for one second completely and thoroughly happy about conditions in Greece and also that in my view the critics of Greece, like the critics of Spain, fall into two broad categories. There are the people who are sincerely, passionately, and disinterestedly concerned about Greece—and they are the huge majority in this House and in our party—but there is also, in my opinion, a vociferous minority who have a vested interest in creating trouble in both those countries. I think I ought also to make it plain that in my opinion and experience the hon. Member for Central Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Mr. Wilkes), who was jeered at from the other side of the House last night, falls into the first category. That, of course, is not to say that I accept as right all that he has to say. I should, however, like to make it plain to this House, and to the supporters of the Government particularly, that what he did say about the labour situation in Greece is substantially true and it has greatly concerned my right hon. Friend. But a Greek court did declare these elections invalid. We cannot get past that unless it is solemnly proposed that we should step in and set aside the decisions of this and any other Greek court. There could not be any justice; there could not be any security of trial if that is going to happen.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs immediately addressed himself to this problem of the unions in Greece when the decision that the elections were invalid was made known. He sent to Greece, with the agreement of the Greek Government, the best man that we could discover for the job, a man whose work in Italy I have already heard praised in this House by people familiar with it. He has produced a device, a formula, which, in substance, means that the Greek Government should, for the purpose of holding valid elections, reappoint the people who were invalidly elected. It is proposed that five others should be added, but it would mean that the people who, so far as we know, are

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acceptable to all shades of trade union opinion in Greece, should supervise the elections quickly for their own trade union office, and we hope that will be done.
I am afraid that I cannot accept the burden of the speech by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Tiffany), and the rest of the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle. It is true that, in Greece, our Police and Military Missions have a very high advisory status but it is true also, however unpalatable it may be to the hon. Member for Peterborough, that the Greek Government must be ultimately responsible for decisions taken in either of these Forces. I should say, in passing, and I think this information has already been given in answer to a Question in this House, that many of the appointments to which exception was taken, were made before the British Military Mission went out to Greece. But, whether that was true or not, the decision for appointment, the decision for operation and the decisions upon the constitution of these forces must rest with the Greek Government. Of course, I sympathise with much of the worry of which we have heard from hon. Members behind upon this subject, but my hon. Friends must face up to this question—Are they really asking His Majesty's Government to step into Greece and say, "Do that, do this; take our orders on this and on every other subject"? Is that what we are being asked to do? If so, let us have it in plain, simple words.
Mr. Zilliacus: Yes, that is what we ought to do, or get out.
Mr. Platts-Mills: We have given orders on every other subject.
Mr. McNeil: I would say in reply to the hon. Gentleman who has just interrupted that we have not given any orders. We are not in a position to give orders, and I say most emphatically that to be asked to step in and create, in Greece, in the words of the "Manchester Guardian" this morning, "another Fatherland front," is something with which I am not in agreement, nor is the Government.
One other thing I would like to say on this subject. A request has been addressed to us, and reference was made to this, by the Greek Government for light arms to arm what they called their Home
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Guard. My right hon. Friend, after consideration, has decided that this should not be done, and he is conveying that decision to the Greek Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear.] I am glad that my hon. Friends approve, but I hope, equally, that they will see the reason for this decision. It is that, upon the evidence available to us, and in the opinion of my right hon. Friend, there was no reason to conclude that this would help to restore public order in Greece, and that is the criterion to which we must address ourselves upon this subject. This Greek Government, and any Greek Government—and hon. Members who are so certain now that this is a wrong Greek Government should reflect back and consider what their attitude was in March, when we were anxious that all parties should take part in the elections in Greece to produce a representative government —this Greek Government, whatever its constitution, has a primary obligation to maintain law and order in the country, and we, as their Allies and friends, must be prepared to uphold them in that aim.
Let no one assume—and I plead with my hon. Friends who, I know, are anxious to understand the situation, to try and get hold of all the facts—that the only disrupters of public order in Greece just now are Right wing people. They are not. There is sustained activity from Left wing irregulars, and this Greek Government, like any other responsible Government, must proceed against Right and Left without prejudice or party bias. No one in this House has submitted any evidence to show that the attempt to create public order in Greece is directed against only one wing. It is not.
It being Ten o' Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Captain Michael Stewart.]
Mr. McNeil: I should now like to turn to one other part of the Balkans, about which there were some strong speeches, and to say a word about Rumania and Bulgaria. We had hoped that, when the German forces withdrew from these countries and when the Fascist Governments in power during the, war were overthrown, the people of Rumania and Bulgaria would be free to choose the form of government they desired. In order to make sure that

1785
they should not be deprived of such a chance, the Government of this country undertook, in the course of the Crimea Conference in May with the Governments of the United States and the Soviet Union, to guarantee free elections. Therefore, to put it at its lowest and most moderate, it is disappointing to find that the conditions in these two countries are such that there is no prospect of the Opposition having a fair chance in the elections which are being held tomorrow in Bulgaria and on 19th November in Rumania. In Bulgaria, which is subject—I am using careful words —to what must be described as a reign of terror exercised by the Government-controlled militia, the Opposition enjoy few of those liberties which are characteristic of a democratic State.
Not long ago a member of the Bulgarian Government admitted that as many as 40,000 people were in political imprisonment at one time. [An HON. MEMBER: "All Left wing?"] I am not able to supply that information, but the House is entitled to make its own inquiries. I must say that even Socialist politicians have been, and are being, sentenced to long terms of imprisonment for uttering criticisms of their Government which seem like billing and cooing compared with the attacks we have had from some hon. Members on the Government benches. In Rumania, also, the Opposition are far from enjoying their political liberty on the Press and radio which we normally assume as a right. It is also clear that in preparing for these November elections, the Rumanian Government are permitting local authorities to adopt fraudulent methods relating to the electoral roll. It is no excuse that that was a past Rumanian practice. I want to deal with two other points which were made, I think, unfairly. My hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury (Mr. Platts-Mills) made an attack upon the economic clauses of the Balkan treaties. Surely, it is normal international practice that if a country freely decides to enter a war, it must be prepared to compensate the holders of property which is damaged as the result of the decision of that country to enter the war. I thought also that my hon. Friend was either exceedingly badly misinformed, which I am sure must be the case, or was most deceitful in the argument he offered to the House. In discussing the problems of British oil companies in Rumania, my hon. Friend made
1786
what I thought was the incredible Suggestion that the British and American flyers were sent on a dangerous operation to bomb the oil fields at Ploesti in order to stop them falling into the hands of the Russians. He gave a date. He said these fields were first bombed in May, 1944. The heaviest and most successful raid on the oil installations was made on 1st August, 1943. Even earlier raids had been made in 1941 by our Soviet Allies with British technical assistance. I think it is reasonable, therefore, that the Rumanians should be prepared to meet the modest claims that we make in accordance with the treaty. I say more than that. I say that the working class constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury have a right to such benefits as the legitimate foreign holdings of this country can afford them, and, of course, these claims in Rumania will make some minor changes in their dietary and, perhaps, even in their clothes.
One other sharp, direct speech came from the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus). No one attempts to deny the knowledge which he brings to this subject, but I suggest that tonight he was verging on the irresponsible. We were told that we were battering at the gates of the Dardanelles. Are we asking for a fresh status in relation to the Dardanelles? Are we asking for further privileges or new benefits? Of course we are not. We were told of the American economic onslaught on the Balkans, but we were not told about what America has already spent in the Balkans without hope of reward. Let us be fair upon this point. I do not know offhand the American contribution to U.N.R.R.A. I think it is rather more than four times the amount of our contribution. No one, not even the man to whose income tax it has meant an additional 1s, 4d., is grumbling about the extent of our contribution, but it should not be forgotten that we poured £155 million mainly into the Balkans and Poland.
Again, the hon. Gentleman came back to this question. He tried to insist that, since there was a specific agreement, interpretation should be taken bilaterally, and we had no right to insist upon free elections in Poland. I suggest—and I am sure I am circled by clever international lawyers—that we are not here discussing a matter of interpretation. We

1787
are discussing a matter of execution which was put beyond doubt, which was not forced in any way upon the Polish Government which voluntarily accepted that contract to which we are partners—and we as partners have our obligations too.
In developing his argument the hon. Member said that in Poland, and in countries like Poland, there was a necessity for a coalition, a coalition such as we had during the war. I am very certain that that argument is accurate but not appropriate, because the essence of our coalition was that it was achieved by consent. The coalitions of which we are afraid in Poland and in the Balkans are the negation of consent. It is not a parallel argument at all. Apart altogether from the political immorality of such arrangements, there is this inescapable criticism, that they will only work temporarily, because one can secure a Government by suppression for some of the time but not for all the time. Certainly, these coalitions carry nothing of the ideas of freedom of expression, of organisation and of representation, which have been the heart and soul of the party of which these gentlemen claim to be members—the heart and soul of our party and of this Government. I share neither the certainty of the hon. Gentleman nor the pessimism of the right hon. Gentleman about the road upon which he apparently concludes we are moving.
Mr. Zilliacus: Before my hon. Friend leaves the subject of my unworthy self, will he state whether the Labour Government consider that this document, "International Postwar Settlement," in its main lines and general principles is binding on the Labour Government as constituting the Labour Government's foreign policy? I am asking that, because a lot of us put that to our electors and were elected on the understanding that that was the Labour Party's policy.
Mr. McNeil: I understand I am being offered a lawyer's trick. I am being asked to say that our policy shall be determined by reference back to 1944. In saying, what I have said, however, I do not in any way subtract from the assertion that this is a Labour Government, that our policy at home and abroad is social democratic government.
I should like to have spent some time attempting to answer one of the questions
1788
put to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler), when he asked me if we had anything further to say about the federation of Europe. I only want to say that, whatever attraction it has, this conception must be weighed most carefully in relation to the Charter and the development of the United Nations. It is not quite easy and clear, but it does fall inside the conception of regional development. If it means that there should be an extension of close relations between Britain and France and the Netherlands and Belgium and so on, that is excellent, and that has been the practice as well as the policy of this Government. But if I am to judge by the grave, and, I am sure, most responsible speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition this afternoon, that is not the exclusive idea behind this conception of European federalism.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) asked me a very heavy question. He asked me if there were more than 200 divisions of Soviet troops on a war footing between the Baltic and the Black Seas. I must, of course, reply in measured terms. I am unable to say whether his information about the number of Russian divisions in occupied countries between the Baltic and the Black Seas is correct, or what proportion of those divisions is on a war footing; but it is, of course, well known that there are very considerable Russian forces in these countries.
When I have said that, I repeat that I cannot share the pessimism—if I do not misinterpret the right hon. Gentleman— which he offered to the House by inference in his speech this afternoon. The Governments of the United States, of the Soviet Union and of this country have recently made it plain that they all want peace. Yes, so did Hitler; and when my party—like the right hon. Gentleman, I must say quite frankly and warmly—had information which belied his words we said so. But until we have that information we must assume that responsible Governments mean what they say in public. I will admit that what gives cause for alarm is that the Soviet seem to continue to build up areas which one might construe as areas of defence; and certainly they are areas in which the Soviet seek to be exclusively powerful. Yet I think

1789
that that is possible of explanation. There is an historical confusion repeated again and again in the minds of men and in the minds of nations, between the conditions of peace and the conditions of national security. It is, perhaps, expressed in the old cliché that a rifle is a weapon of defence when you look at it from the butt, and a weapon of attack when you look at it from the muzzle. It may also be true, I expect, that our activities and the activities of the United States look to be muzzle-ended from the Soviet point of view.
But I must add this: This confusion has been seen. The confusion of these two ideas has been seen from the beginning by this Government, and that is one of the reasons why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and my other right hon. Friends, have continued to insist that the basis of our foreign policy must rest upon the United Nations, and that the instruments of the United Nations must be upheld. Because, as yet, the differences between us and the Soviet are, I venture to suggest, of a technical kind and not yet of a political kind, although if further deterioration takes place that might be true.
The problem is the technical one of finding an instrument by which any reasonable demands from the Soviet can be met, and equally reasonable demands by this country or by any other European Power may be met. That is why it is essential that the Security Council must be upheld. If, for example—to choose an example so absurd that no one will suspect us—we occupied outer Mongolia, it might be true that that would contribute to our defence, but equally it could certainly be maintained that it was a threat against the Soviet. In such a situation His Majesty's Government would be willing to go to arbitration immediately. But, of course, for arbitration you must have an arbiter. We started with one, but as the Prime Minister has already said this afternoon, we are in great danger of losing it.
Mr. Churchill: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that subject may I say that I ventured to ask a very plain and simple question—a heavy question. Is there going to be any answer to it? I would like to make it quite plain: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to relieve us of any anxiety which may have
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been caused by my statement that there are more than 200 mobilised Soviet divisions on the line from the Baltic to the Black Sea? I should like to know if any answer can be made. [HON. MEMBERS": "It has been answered."] If the right hon. Gentleman has answered it, we have not understood the answer, and do not imagine that this point can be covered up by evasion. We ought to know the truth. We will have the truth out of him.
Mr. McNeil: I am delighted by the threats which the right hon. Gentleman hurls at me—
Mr. Churchill: I did not.
Mr. McNeil: —but I would have been a very poor student of the right hon. Gentleman, when I sat on the benches where he now is, if I had been trapped into elaborating an answer which I did not want to elaborate. I have given an answer. The answer is the one I have already given. If the right hon. Gentleman wants me to read it again I will do so. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol asked, at the end of his speech, if the right hon. Gentleman would consider reconvening or attending—
Mr. Churchill: I thought that the Undersecretary was going to give me an answer?
Mr. McNeil: I will repeat it. I am unable to say whether the information of the right hon. Gentleman about the number of Russian divisions in occupied countries between the Baltic and the Black Sea is correct, or what proportion of these divisions is on a war footing; but it is, of course, well known that there are very considerable Russian forces in these countries. That is the answer
Mr. Churchill: I am much obliged for the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman in repeating the statement.
Mr. McNeil: Perhaps, when I have intricate and comprehensive replies to make in future, I will take the trouble to circulate them to the Opposition Front Bench The right hon. Gentleman asked if my right hon. Friend would attend or convene a further meeting of the Big Three or the Big Four. The reply to that is, that there is the Council of Ministers, and when the right hon. Gentleman says,

1791
perhaps with force, that diplomacy sometimes succeeds in private—not in secret— as distinct from public, then, of course, I must say that too has been the view of my right hon. Friend. If there are any private informal conversations that can take place, and if the meeting of the Big Three or the Big Four would help re-create or further better conditions between us, then my right hon. Friend is willing at any time to do that, because it is the policy of the Government that we should bend ourselves to sustain any kind of international consideration. There is no reason to believe that unilateral action by any country, no matter what banners it carries or what slogans it has, will make conditions of peace. It needs international action, and we will use any and every instrument for that purpose, although we still believe the instrument will be found inside the Charter of the United Nations.
I want to say one word as I close, which is not made any easier because of the presence of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
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There have been three statements made about him during these two days which I very much resent. I want to say that when people are without an argument upon a policy, then it is not unusual to try to traduce and besmirch the men who seem handiest. This foreign policy is not the foreign policy of any one man; it is the foreign policy of this Government. If someone tries to separate any one from the Government, then it will be a confession of weakness that they have no argument. The whispering we have heard information about in Europe and capitals in the Balkans can bear only that interpretation. This Government will continue to pursue a foreign policy based upon the establishment and extension of social democracy, and for that purpose, politically and economically, we will utilise all the instruments available inside the Charter of the United Nations
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes past Ten o' Clock.

  NON-REPATRIABLE REFUGEES
  NON-REPATRIABLE REFUGEES
  GREECE (UNITED KINGDOM ASSISTANCE)
  GREECE (UNITED KINGDOM ASSISTANCE)
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  GERMANY (MR. CHATTERTON-HILL)
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  Raspberries, Scotland (Prices)
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  Retail Licence, Liverpool
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  Fats (Fish Friers)
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ROYAL AIR FORCE
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CIVIL AVIATION
  Helicopters
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AFRICAN COLONIES
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COLONIAL EMPIRE
  Civil Service Pensions
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  FALKLAND ISLANDS
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MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
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EDUCATION
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Preamble
The House met at two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

VISCOUNT MOUNTBATTEN OF BURMA.
Acting Admiral Sir Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas Mountbatten (commonly called Lord Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas Mountbatten), G.C.V.O., K.C.B., D.S.O., having been created Viscount Mountbatten of Burma, of Rornsey in the County of Southampton—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
The Lord Heneage—Took the Oath.

GLASGOW CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
BANBURY CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
NORTHMET POWER BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
ABERDEEN HARBOUR ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, according to Order, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ATOMIC ENERGY BILL.
2.18 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, as your Lordships are aware, the matter of this Bill deals
570
with what might fairly be described as a revolutionary development, which marked the last year of the war and which is unique in its military potentialities, power and dreadfulness, as well as in the economic possibilities to which it might give rise, if properly guided and developed. The world is naturally concerned about the possibilities of frightfulness to which the release and the use of atomic energy might give rise, and I do not propose to detain your Lordships by enlarging on that aspect of the matter. But it is clear that the whole thing is of such prodigious importance that steps must be taken, so far as humanly possible, to safeguard humanity against the danger.
As your Lordships are aware, the United Nations Organization has already set up an Atomic Energy Commission to study the possibilities in this direction, and I need scarcely say that this Government are participating, have participated, and will participate with the utmost goodwill to make the issues of the deliberations of this Commission successful, and to secure that in some way the international agencies that are set up are efficient. At the same time, the possibilities of the case are so great that clearly adequate national safeguards must be taken not only to enable us to play our part in whatever is ultimately desired and agreed upon in consequence of the work of the Atomic Energy Commission, but also to see that, as far as possible, good use is made of the possibilities of these discoveries in the economic sense. I understand that in that respect there are already certain products which may be potentially of great value in many directions. Clearly, therefore, we must provide for and encourage the proper type of developments. The Government have already undertaken, and are already setting up, a research establishment at Harwell, and your Lordships are already aware that in general charge of production is Viscount Portal of Hungerford who, I am sure, receives the confidence of every one of us.
I understand that at the present moment the immense costs which this kind of work is likely to involve are counted as £30,000,000; how much more they will prove to be no one can tell, but I think it would be idle to pretend that the costs of the work may be limited to that figure. This Bill does not—using the term in its

571
usual sense—"nationalize" atomic energy. It gives the Minister power to promote and control developments under the best advice that he can obtain, and the Government are aided and assisted now, and have been for some time past, by a very responsible and expert committee over which Sir John Anderson presides. I am sure that on that account alone it will receive the confidence of every one of us.
I do not think I need take your Lordships in detail through the Bill. I will just indicate some of its provisions. It nominates the Minister of Supply as the Minister responsible for the conduct of the work such as there is at Harwell and elsewhere, gives him general charge over that work and the general duty to provide, promote, and control development and research. In that respect it enables him and authorizes him to provide money to encourage and carry out research, to call for information, if need be, in various matters, to inspect premises where research of vital consequence may possibly endanger the safety of the State or of individual persons. It empowers him to search for materials, and if he does any damage in searching for materials it authorizes him to pay the proper compensation. It authorizes the Minister to acquire the right to develop certain minerals which are related to the work in question, and it enables him to enter into arrangements with private persons who are doing work on related subjects and to make appropriate arrangements with them. Particularly in regard to research, we are only at the beginning of the possible developments of this immense topic, but already grants are being provided at universities and elsewhere for research work in many directions which I need not enlarge upon.
There was one particular clause—Clause 11—which was very difficult to draft and which may involve certain difficulties in its administration, but it is quite clear that in a matter of this kind steps must be taken to prevent the disclosure of information and to ensure the necessary secrecy. At the same time, it is of course quite evident that you cannot do anything, and ought not to do anything, which would prevent scientists quite properly exchanging ideas and developing scientific experiments on
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sound lines. In that respect I might refer, speaking of the precautions about the disclosure of information, to the declaration of the President of the United States and the Prime Ministers of Canada and the United Kingdom, which was issued on the 14th of November last. They laid down the principle that basic scientific information essential to the development of atomic energy for peaceful purposes should be made available to the world, but that detailed information concerning practical industrial application should be deferred until effective reciprocal and enforceable safeguards, acceptable to all nations, have been devised. That formula was accepted by the nations concerned, and I am sure it is one that is sound and should be adhered to. At the same time, I recognize the great difficulties, without crippling scientists, of drafting a form of words that would be workable and would be sufficient. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, will have some comments to make on this subject, which he was good enough to inform me of beforehand. Therefore I will keep for my reply, if the House will allow me to make one, any observations I have to make on the comments which he will bring before your Lordships.
There are safeguards of like character relating to inventions, and provisions with regard to the acquisition of inventions, and generally, we have sought to cover the case as far as it is foreseeable at the present time. The Bill has been carried through the other place, as your Lordships are aware, without any adverse criticism, but with proper comments, and I hope that your Lordships will be willing to give it a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Addison.)
2.27 p.m.
LORD CHERWELL: My Lords, for rather more than a year now one of the most distressing afflictions which has plagued citizens of this unhappy country has been the atomic energy bore. Many people who know something about nuclear physics, and a great many more who know even less, have been expatiating, often dogmatically and almost always at interminable length, and inflicting their views upon anyone who would listen. I have endeavoured myself to avoid this pitfall, but on this occasion I trust that the House will forgive me if I say one or

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two general words before coming to the Bill itself.
Whether or not the possession of atomic bombs will decide future wars, their use will certainly render them infinitely more horrible from most points of view. The blast effect, even of the earliest types of atomic bombs, exceeded that of our ten-ton bombs in much the same proportion as the ten-tonners in this war exceeded the very first twenty-pound bombs which were dropped from aircraft thirty years ago. In addition, we have the heat radiation searing all exposed organic matter within about half a mile of the explosion, and the even deadlier gamma rays blighting the marrow of all living creatures within much the same distance, not to mention the lethal radio active products which would poison the whole neighbourhood for a considerable time if such a bomb were detonated on the ground.
The more the effect of these bombs is studied, and the more that is known about possible improvements, the more vital does it seem to reach some work able agreement to prevent the use of this weapon in war. Yet although fourteen months have elapsed since the first nuclear bombs detonated, we seem very little nearer achieving this end. Our failure is not because it is inherently impossible to think out methods of control. On the contrary, the Baruch Plan indicated a perfectly feasible approach. The difficulty is that any workable scheme inevitably involves a certain surrender of that complete sovereignty which some nations are so insistent to preserve. It is perfectly clear that without international inspection there can be no security against individual countries developing and producing and perfecting these bombs. A mere under taking to refrain from their use will give, no more security against their being used than the Kellogg Pact undertaking to refrain from war prevented the war which broke out a few years later. Nor will a mere exchange of such information as a country chooses to divulge carry us much further.
Either an international authority with the powers and the will to act in the case of recalcitrance must be allowed to inspect all the countries of the world and to insist on the stopping of any obnoxious activities concerned with nuclear weapons,
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or we must make up our minds to an international arms race which will almost certainly culminate in the most disastrous war in human history. To accept such an international authority implies a certain surrender of sovereignty, but I cannot understand why any reasonable country should refuse this when the dread alternative is atomic war. It is almost inconceivable that the nations should stand upon punctilio in such a matter when the stake is so great. I venture to hope that this country at any rate will place no obstacle in the way, always provided that the rest of the countries of the world will accept this essential preliminary to any form of inter national control. I also venture to hope that we shall resist anything calculated to extend the knowledge of how to make and use these bombs unless and until all other nations have shown by deeds as well as by words that they accept the international authority with all its powers of inspection and control. Clearly we cannot have international control and regulation without national control and regulation. One of the main reasons why I welcome this Bill is that it is an essential step which may make the achievement of some form of international control feasible.
Whilst welcoming the Bill in broad outline there are, however, one or two important points which I think I should mention so that the Government may consider them and I hope may be prepared to satisfy us on the Committee stage. In this matter I feel sure that all of us in the House are aiming at the same thing. I also feel sure that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House will believe me when I assure him that any Amendments I may suggest are intended to be constructive and helpful. In the first place, I am a little disappointed, although this is a Bill "to provide for the development of atomic energy", to see how little is said about this aspect of the Minister's duty. We are told in Clause 1 that it will be his general duty to promote and control the development of atomic energy and in subsequent clauses we find set out in great details all the various powers which he shall have to control other people's property and activities. But there seems to be rather a dearth of detail concerning his own constructive activities. I dare say it is unusual to go any further than this in a Bill, but I must confess I was a little uneasy to find so much stress laid upon the powers

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the Minister has to prevent other people working freely on this topic and how little stress is laid upon the methods he shall use to promote research and development himself.
Few people who have not tried it realize how hard it is to carry out research under Treasury auspices. Rules and regulations hamper advance even on well-defined and old-fashioned lines, but nuclear research is so much in its infancy that it really cannot be treated on ordinary Civil Service lines. It is so closely related to fundamental research as opposed to mere technical developments that it will be stifled in the strait jacket of closely-knit red tape which the Treasury so fondly weaves when it has an opportunity. All the rules and procedure very proper in administrative departments must of necessity handicap all Government research. But we are dealing here with a subject so novel and so important that precedent must go by the board. It will be absolutely overlaid if we cannot break through the ordinary restrictions. When we discussed these matters two or three years ago it was universally agreed that nuclear work could only be handled effectively if dealt with on university lines. I do not mean to say in a university, but the head of the department should be allowed the same sort of freedom a university professor enjoys to engage his own staff, to fix their salaries within reasonable limits, and to direct their activities according to their particular aptitudes and interests. He must be allowed to incur expenditure within the ambit of his budget without constant reference to the Treasury or the Ministry, to make his own arrangements about hours of work, leave, and so on.
Above all, it is quite impossible in work of this sort to have scientists selected and appointed by the Civil Service Commission in the ordinary way. Nothing will be done if the head of a research department has to waste his time arguing, as all too often happens in Government establishments, for weeks and months about engaging extra typists or computers or junior men. It is absurd to demand that men who have to advise on matters involving millions of pounds should have to go cap in hand to some minor official in order to be allowed to spend a few hundred or even a few thousand pounds for purposes which, rightly or wrongly,
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they consider necessary, and about which in any event they are bound to be the best judges. Developments are so rapid that every month counts. I say without hesitation that unless Civil Service regulations are relaxed months may be wasted arguing and explaining instead of getting on with the job. I will give one instance. One of the most important instruments of research in nuclear physics is the "Geiger counter." There may be half a dozen men in England who have had experience in making and using these, and probably most of them are tied up at universities. If the head of one of the departments dealing with atomic energy requires a man of this type, surely it is absurd to ask him to advertise the post, to put an applicant through the regular Civil Service examination, to have a selection board and all the rest of the rigmarole, when it is known from the very beginning that there is only one man who is suitable and available, who he is and on what terms he can be got. Unless we insist upon considerable deviation from ordinary Treasury practice, I am certain that work on atomic energy under Government auspices in this country is condemned to atrophy. We cannot get ahead with research in this way.
For this reason I hope the Government will state quite clearly in this Bill that there is no intention of proceeding on these stereotyped lines and that the Minister shall have the power, and even the duty in suitable cases, to treat this question without any regard to normal Civil Service procedure. Unless progress is to be hamstrung we must see that the heads of the various establishments are given a certain budget at the beginning of the year, for which, of course, they have to account, and are allowed to dispose of it without constant reference back, with the same freedom as is enjoyed in general by the heads of departments in universities.
In the American Act dealing with these matters—the McMahon Act—there is a special clause to take care of this aspect. It provides that the Commission—which corresponds to the Minister in our case—shall appoint and fix the compensation of officers and employees, and so on, according to their Classification Acts, and then comes a notable phrase saying that to the extent that the Commission deem such action necessary in the discharge of its responsibilities personnel may be employed and their compensation fixed without

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regard to such laws. I hope it may be possible to insert a provision of a similar nature in this Bill, presumably in Clause 2. I know, of course, that in Part II of the Civil Service Regulations, paragraph 3, section 10, power is given to the Commissioners in making appointments to dispense with the normal procedure in cert in conditions. If the Civil Service Commissioners would undertake to accept the advice of the Minister, who would presumably be guided by the senior officials in charge of the various atomic energy establishments, this power, if used comparatively freely, might suffice to meet my difficulty as far as the appointment of officials is concerned. I do not think it would be required in more than a few dozen or perhaps a few score of cases. But when it is necessary, some mechanism of this sort ought to be provided which would enable long-term appointments to be made rapidly and irrespective of normal Civil Service regulations. The sort of men we need for this work are all too rare; they are being offered lucrative posts else-where, at home and abroad., and unless we are to risk losing them the various departments ought to be able to act almost as swiftly and decisively as ordinary industrial concerns.
As to the financial side, I do not think there should be any great difficulty in arranging to give freedom to the heads of the various establishments. This, I imagine, is merely an administrative matter, but if I am wrong and it can only be done by inserting a clause in the Bill, I trust the Government will agree to some such Amendment. I hope the House will not think I am being fussy or pernickety in this matter. I have really had a great deal of experience in this sort of work, both in universities and Government Departments, and I feel that in those circumstances it would be wrong for me to allow to pass without protest a Bill in which no attention appears to have been paid to this very important aspect. The Government are here trying to do something quite unlike anything they have ever attempted before, and I can assure the House that some such break with precedent will have to be made unless we are to jeodardize the future of nuclear work in this country.
I do not wish to criticize at this stage the general organization projected for this work, though it does seem to me to be
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a little sketchy as it stands. As I understand it, the present arrangements are that research and development should be the responsibility of Professor Cockcroft, whilst production is to be dealt with by Lord Portal of Hungerford. What is to be done about the all-important ordnance side has, so far as I know, not yet been stated, although there have been rumours. It would be an impertinence for me to congratulate the Minister on having selected Lord Portal, but perhaps I might be allowed to say how we must all congratulate him upon having selected Professor Cockcroft. No better man could be found for this particular work. But I must say that I am a little anxious about the apparent, I do not know whether it is dichotomy or dichotomy in a subject which is in its infancy, as this is. I think: it is probably too early to expect these things to have been sorted out. I under stand there is an Atomic Energy Council under the chairmanship of Lord Portal, and I hope this may be a first step towards securing the directed drive which will be essential if this very difficult project is to come to fruition within a reason able time.
Another point is the question of priority. The work here is realty urgent; every month counts. Can we be assured that its priority is recognized and not overridden by sudden ad hoc decisions. I saw in the war how easy it is for some priority to be granted to meet some special need; such as steel for coal mines, or something like that. But with every ton of material controlled as it is today, such a decision may set back atomic energy work, at any rate, the research side of it, by months, although very small Quantities, a few tons of steel, may be involved.
As the noble Lord who introduced the Bill said, most of its clauses call for very little comment. There is, however, as he said, one totally new departure contained in Clause 11 about which I think I should say a few words. In my view, this particular clause can only be justified by the unprecedented measure of the danger which confronts us. The clause is drawn in very sweeping terms. Roughly speaking, it declares that anyone who, without the consent of the Minister, knowingly communicates anything concerning existing or proposed atomic energy plant, its purpose or method of operation or any processes operated therein, shall be guilty of an offence. When we see the extremely

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broad definition of the word "plant" in Clause 18—namely, "any machinery, equipment or appliance,"—it is clear that if rigidly applied this clause would ham string all discussion or communication, and probably all progress.
The clause, as I understand it, is designed—and properly designed, in my view—to safeguard our vital secrets against three types of indiscretion. In the first place, it is quite possible that individuals might root out a number of secrets by collating indiscretions, cross-examining people who had access to plants, and generally, if I may use the expression, snooping around. Clearly, the publication of that sort of material ought to be prohibited. In the second place, people who have a great deal of knowledge owing to their official connexion with these plants, which they are prevented from disclosing by the Official Secrets Act, might make a perfectly genuine independent invention unconnected with the official secrets, but of great importance in the manufacture or use of fissionable material. Clearly, they should not be at liberty to publish such an invention. Of course, the likelihood of anyone entrusted with these official secrets making such an invention is considerable, but I think we may hope that in general the people in that sort of position would not be likely to disclose it irresponsibly.
Finally, there is the possibility that some person remote from all Government work might, quite independently, in his own laboratory or elsewhere, think out some novel process or plant for producing or using substances important for atomic energy work. That is not very likely, and even if it did happen the odds are that the man would be a decent person who would in the first instance communicate his invention to his own Government. But I really do not think it is wrong to lay down that this is an obligation and to make it plain that failure to do so is an offence. There is, however, no denying the fact that it is a totally new departure. Hitherto, if a man discovered or invented something in his own laboratory or elsewhere, he was entitled to publish it or to communicate it to anyone he pleased. Clause 11 prohibits this as regards discoveries or inventions concerning plant, or methods of operation or processes in plant used or proposed to be used for producing atomic energy.
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This clause, of course, as the noble Lord said, has been subject to a good deal of criticism and it was, I think, even proposed in another place to delete it altogether. I do not myself go so far as this. It is quite true, of course, that anything preventing the interchange of ideas tends to hamper the progress of science, and as scientists we are therefore bound to regret it.
We must not forget that there is another side of the picture. The man in the street will say, not without justice, that the main thing Clause 11 will impede and delay will be the construction of still bigger and still better atomic bombs. As he does not know who is going to get them first he may well consider that such a delay is not entirely a matter of regret. There may be many noble Lords in this House who will agree with him. After all, supposing it became plain that processes might be evolved for producing easily from common substances an absolutely deadly poison, whose use could never be detected, would anybody claim that it should be permissible to publish that sort of knowledge in the newspapers in the interests of science? Some people say, of course, that it will be intolerable for scientists to have to obtain permission to publish discoveries in nuclear physics which might well have a bearing on deference. Of course, it is a nuisance. Every physiologist has to get permission before he is allowed to carry out vivisection experiments, and no doubt he considers that a nuisance and would prefer to do what he liked. Parliament has insisted on certain restrictions on physiologists in order to save unnecessary suffering to animals. Therefore, it seems to me that Parliament is entitled to impose restrictions on physicists for the sake of saving suffering to humanity.
In broad principle, therefore, I do not contest the need for something on the lines of Clause 11. It does seem to me, however, to require certain modifications in wording. As it stands it seems to me that it would completely inhibit any discussion on these matters at all, since any communication to any person requires the consent of the Minister. It is perfectly true that the procedure is laid down by which the Minister can by order grant exemption from this to certain classes of cases. For example, he might exempt cyclotrons or Geiger counters, or a whole

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class of similar instruments. What causes anxiety to my scientific friends and colleagues is that there does not seem to be any mechanism for exempting certain persons from the operation of this clause in the case of highly secret material which has not been exempted under the general clause. Some people hold that this can be done under the clause as it stands. I must say I am very doubtful whether this is correct. In any event, it is by no means evident to anyone who reads the clause, and a great deal of the concern of my scientific colleagues arises, I think, because they read this clause, as I do—namely, as meaning that discussion amongst bona-fide colleagues will be inhibited except in so far as particular topics exempted by the Minister are concerned.
I hope very much that the Government will see their way to relieve this anxiety either by rewording part of the clause or perhaps by adding another proviso saying that it shall not be an offence to communicate to authorized individuals information concerning secret non-exempted material. I hope that the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, will recognize that this is a reasonable request, and that he will examine with his advisers the possibility of framing some Amendment which would take care of this aspect. This would, I am sure, remove a great deal of the objection felt against this clause in scientific circles.
Perhaps I should refer to one other point. It was suggested in another place that a special committee should be set up by the Bill, whose advice the Minister should hear before deciding certain points. I do not press for this myself. There is such a shortage of nuclear physicists in the country that I am sure that practically all of them will be roped in on one or other of the various committees or panels which have been or will be formed. No Minister in his senses could dream of acting without considering their advice, and I shall be very much surprised if in scientific matters he ever goes against it. In certain circles, especially abroad, there has been a tendency to claim that as the physicists discovered and invented these bombs, they ought to have a predominant voice in determining how they should be handled and what should be done about them. I do not think any reasonable physicist in this country takes
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this view. Indeed, it would be absurd that he should. If a man invented a particularly effective contraceptive, that would not give him the right to decide the country's birth-rate.
My view is that the people who run the country should have some knowledge of science, not that scientists should run the country. As we cannot at this stage count upon this, I think it is very important, especially in a matter of this kind, that the Minister should fortify himself with scientific advice. I am confident he will do so. Although they may be few and far between, there are still enough people in Parliament with sufficient scientific knowledge to make the Minister's life a burden to him if he takes a line in any scientific or technical matter which is repugnant to scientific opinion. On the whole this is a good and necessary Bill. I hope the Government will be able to meet us on the points I have mentioned, and possibly some small Committee points. That being so, I trust the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.
2.56 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, the purpose of this Bill, as stated by the noble Lord who hs just spoken, is to impose upon the Minister of Supply a general duty to promote and control the development of atomic energy. Those purposes, how ever, are not parallel, and they may be sometimes contrary. The more you promote these developments of atomic energy, the more difficult it may be to control it, and the more strictly you control it the more difficult it may be to promote it. In the short run what we are at present thinking of mostly is control, but in the long run it may prove to be that promotion is for the more important of the two. The term "epoch-making" is often used and abused, and in reference to some quite secondary matters, but literally it may prove that this discovery of the way to utilize atomic energy does open a new epoch, and that the atomic age may be even more different, both in economics and social organization, from the present age as the steam age was from the age of hand labour which preceded it.
The noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, in previous debates was inclined to rate some what low the prospects of any immense economic or industrial development following from the use of atomic energy. He pointed out that in effect it was only

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the substitution of one kind of motive force, one kind of fuel as it were, for another, that this might prove to be more costly than coal, and that in the long run it would have very little effect upon industrial developments. But that view is, I believe, not shared by most of those whose scientific reputation is as high even as that of the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, and I refer to those who have been specially concerned with this development. There was a conference held in London a few months ago on the subject of science and world welfare, which was organized by the Association of Scientific Workers, in co-operation with other bodies, and enjoyed the presence and co-operation of a number of leading scientists from other countries. I was privileged to receive an invitation. I attended the three-day sittings of the conference and heard all the discussions. Among the principal speakers was Professor Oliphant, who is, of course, one of those most prominently concerned with the development of atomic energy. He said that he thought it was reasonable to anticipate that the practical application of atomic energy—at all events in experimental form—might be achieved within five or ten years. If that is so, and if this motive force is made available practically or experimentally within that comparatively short time, we may be sure that international competition and emulation between different countries, and the immense objects to be attained will bring about its development with extreme speed.
Toil, brute labour, has always been the oppressor of mankind, and the machine has come as the great liberator. The machine, however, depends upon motive force and so long as industries are limited by the considerations of the accessibility of coal or oil or hydraulic power then development must be limited, and some countries or vast areas of countries can hardly be developed industrially at all. The moment you have this new form of energy which can be derived from matter and utilized anywhere you may effect an immense revolution in the industrial organization of the world. And once you have, if you do have, this exceedingly cheap and plentiful motive force anywhere you may be sure that the development of machinery will proceed with extreme speed. All that opens up a prospect for the
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next and succeeding generations of a supply of the necessaries, comforts and amenities of life in abundance, with very much less labour, and gives a prospect of the enjoyment of leisure carried to a point which has never been conceived as possible in previous ages. The amount of energy involved is, of course, quite unlimited. Sir James Jeans a good many years ago pointed out that the amount of energy existing in a piece of coal the size of a pea, if it could all be utilized by scientific methods, would be enough to drive a great liner from Southampton to New York and back again. The power resources of this new force are on that scale.
Here, in this country the only great resource for power that we have lies in our coal, while the other two great empire countries, the United States and Russia, have an abundance of other forms of natural resources for the production of energy which we here have not. It is in the highest degree necessary, therefore, even from a narrow national standpoint, that this motive force should be developed to the utmost in this country. After all, this idea originated here. It came from British scientists such as Thomson and Rutherford in the first instance, and it would be hard if, in the future, as in so many cases in the past, with regard to ideas that have originated here, it should be left to be developed elsewhere and conduce chiefly to the prosperity of other countries.
It should be the object of Ministers of Supply in this country to endeavour to the utmost degree possible to promote the development of atomic energy. Incidentally it is greatly needed also for the sake of research both in physics and in medicine. The essence of scientific progress has always been freedom of communication, the interchangeability of ideas. Secrecy is wholly antipathetic. Therefore, from one point of view any additional restriction is disadvantageous. The Prime Minister, introducing this Bill in another place a few days ago, said:
"The Government must not hinder the freedom of scientists, indeed they must facilitate it."
That is one side of the picture, the side of promotion. But then there is the other side, and the Prime Minister said in the same speech, and quite rightly:
"The Government must have adequate powers of control."

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The terrific effects of the atomic bomb must bring home to every one of us, as a matter of the utmost urgency, that such control, and effective control, is absolutely vital. The Minister of Supply, Mr. Wilmot, in another place, giving an example, said that the release of energy weight for weight of an atomic bomb was a million times greater than that from a bomb filled with such an explosive as T.N.T.
The Government sent a Commission to Japan to make a scientific report on the results of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At the end of that report the Commission summarize the casualties that were inflicted, and they tell us that in Hiroshima the number killed was between 70,000 and go.000 and in Nagasaki about 40,000. 7Fhey mention that during the whole of the six years of the war throughout Great Britain, the casualties in killed in all the air raids totalled 60,000. So that means that in a moment in Hiroshima nearly half as many again were killed compared with the total of fatal casualties in this country throughout the war. They mention also that the German V2 rocket, which was the latest engine of destruction launched against this country, had an average casualty effect of some fifteen killed for each rocket. They estimate that in the conditions of the British towns, the average casualties from an atomic bomb similar to those used in Japan would be about 50,000 from a single bomb. This weapon is now only in its infancy, and there is very little doubt that its destructive effects will be quickly increased if the nations set them selves to that end. Consequently, it is obvious that control and effective control is absolutely vital to the future of mankind. The United Nations Organization has come into existence just in time to be the authority that should endeavour to establish, and let us hope will succeed in establishing, that control. If there is any one matter which is proper for the United Nations to deal with it is this matter of atomic energy.
My noble friend the Earl of Perth drew my attention to the fact that in our debate last week on the subject of the control of defence not a word was said by any speaker—including myself—on the effect on national defence of the discovery of atomic energy. I think that that must have been in the case of most speakers—
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it certainly was in mine—because it is useless at this stage to consider the relation of atomic energy to national defence. We must wait to see whether the United Nations can devise means of establishing the necessary control. If they do then we can make modifications in our plans on that basis. Even if they do, it will still be necessary to maintain ordinary defensive measures by means of the Army, Navy and Air Force and the necessary Governmental organization at the centre. For clearly the atomic weapon is such a terrific weapon that it could not be used for ordinary international police purposes and the general objects for which a defence organization is maintained.
In the United States there has been the most intense public interest and discussion on this matter; far more than in this country. Fresh organizations have been established to carry on propaganda with regard to the matter, which has been discussed in the Press throughout the land. There have also been numbers of committees created, and there have been two admirable reports, the Lillenthal Report and the Baruch Report, which make practical proposals for the control of atomic energy. Those Reports are admirable not only for their practical suggestions but because of the spirit, the regard for human welfare in general which inspires them.
It is clear, therefore, that a Bill of this character is essential. We must have national control, if only as a means of contributing to international control, to honour or enforce any international agreement to which we may become parties. This control is a question of the greatest possible difficulty. I do not know of any Minister who has had a more difficult task thrust upon him than that of drafting a Bill which will on the one hand establish adequate control and yet not interfere with the proper development. Plants now in use for the production of atomic bombs are, as we all know, vast and necessarily conspicuous, but it may be that the processes will be greatly simplified. In fact, that is generally anticipated by scientists—perhaps "generally" may be an exaggeration; it is certainly anticipated by some scientists.
The raw materials are now somewhat rare; certainly that is true of the isotopes of uranium and thorium and other rare substances. But theoretically it can be derived from almost any elements, and it

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may be that in the future entirely different methods, much simpler and less conspicuous, will be adopted. In another place, the Minister of Supply said that he had been advised that "it may prove, later on, not to be necessary to use the nuclear fission method at all, and we may find means to liberate atomic energy by different methods altogether." That may make control even more difficult than it is at this moment. When we discussed this matter very briefly a year ago, soon after the discovery of atomic energy and its use, I raised the question of the establishment of world-wide inspection of the plants. The noble Viscount, Lord Addison, who replied in that debate, rather brushed that aside and said that it was not practicable in any circum stances.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I do not think that I said "in any circumstances."
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: The noble Viscount said that we must depend upon the goodwill and the sense of obligation of the foreign countries. Now, as the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, said, I think it is realized that inspection is the very essence of the matter. But if you are to have inspection with a view to detecting the illicit or unauthorized manufacture of atomic bombs and similar weapons, is that inspection to extend to the ordinary military establishments of the country, all the dockyards and the industrial establishments which are concerned with the manufacture of submarines, aeroplanes, artillery rockets, and all the instruments of war? In other words, will the agents of other countries be admitted into the most secret military engineering establishment of any other country. If they are, that may be regarded as a serious invasion of national sovereignty. If they are not, how can the world at large be assured that illicit manufacture is not being carried on in the more secret establishments? That is a problem of very great difficulty, which I have not yet seen discussed. It is quite obvious that when the United Nations come to deal with this matter it is one of the first issues which they will be obliged to investigate. We shall all watch with extreme anxiety the course of discussions on this question when it comes before the United Nations.
These two purposes, one of promotion and the other of control, are cross-
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purposes. They are dealt with in Clause 11 the Bill, to which the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, has referred. That is the clause which deals with the restriction of disclosure. That has been discussed at great length, both in another place and outside Parliament, and various changes were made in the Bill as it was first drafted, in order to meet criticisms from the standpoint of the scientist. The noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, said that control was somewhat resented by the scientist. Yet control must be drastic, if it is to be effective. Even in such matters as putting down illicit stills or stopping smuggling laws have to be drastic, and the penalty has to be heavy. Here, the difficulty is far greater and the possibilities of evasion are far more formidable than in any other case. It is true that this clause imposes a penalty of five years penal servitude for wrongful disclosure, but scientists concerned an always go to the Minister to obtain permission for communication.
The Minister has given undertakings in another place which I have no doubt will be given here—that he will not interfere with the normal work of the physicists who are discussing the problems that arise here. Indeed, the clause itself does impose very strict limitations upon the Minister, and it seeks to guarantee, so far as possible, that pure scientific investigation shall not be unduly hampered. As I have mentioned, the Prime Minister himself has said that the Government must give to the scientist the greatest freedom, consistent with national and international safety. These are matters which will, no doubt, be dealt with in Committee, when we come to Clause 11. For the rest, I have no points of detail to raise, and nothing further to add. I am certain that your Lordships will give to this measure on Second Reading a unanimous assent.
3.18 p.m.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, may I add a few words, particularly with regard to the comments and questions of the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell? I will not follow the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, into his discourse on the character of this danger, and what may be involved in this Bill and the international obligations which everybody will have to assume if we are to be successful in restraining the dangers. I was, however, struck by one phrase which the noble Viscount used, and to which I cannot resist referring. I do so with considerable

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trepidation, because the noble Viscount is much more learned in philosophy than I am. I noticed that he said "toil has always been an oppressor of mankind." I am not a philosopher, but I know something about physiology, and I do not agree with him at all. I have found that if had not dug in my garden, and done a little useful work whenever I had a chance, I should not be as healthy a man as I am at my age. I will refrain, how ever, from discussing that.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: You might not feel the same if it were for ten hours a day for 350 days a year.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: It is only a question of the amount; that would be excessive toil. I should have said that toil was an essential part of human physiology. If you do not exert yourself, you will not live very long. However, I will not go into that fascinating theme.
I thank noble Lords for the general welcome which I am sure that the Bill will receive. I have spent some consider able time going into the points which the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, informed me beforehand he would raise, and I may say that I have very much sympathy with him. First, it is quite evident that the ordinary rules regarding the employment of the high experts and scientists who will be required for this work could not be rules which would be applicable to the ordinary procedure of the Civil Service Commission. I entirely agree. It is manifest that that would have to be so. Also the number of men who would be sufficiently expert is very small. I am informed that the total number that might be expected to be required within the near future is quite small. I will not give it. It is evident, if you are waiting to recruit a physicist or other person who is already eminent in some branch of work, that you cannot expect him to come into this work without receiving a security as good as any he had before. You cannot expect a man of that kind to go through, and com ply with, all the regulations of the Civil Service Commission.
As a matter of fact, I heard a story of one of the chief professors employed in Canada, who voluntarily submitted to the Civil Service Commission examination. He was, as a matter of fact, the head of the whole thing, but he came out bottom in the examination! That is an
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excellent illustration of the fact that regulations of this kind are not applicable to such appointments. I will say this. Matters are now being discussed between the Civil Service Commission, the Treasury and the Minister, and I hope that when the Bill reaches Committee I shall be able to give the noble Lord a detailed and explicit assurance which would completely satisfy him on this matter.
On the point of secrecy, there again I have great sympathy with the views ex pressed. The provisions about secrecy cannot be interpreted in such a way as to make it a crime for one roan in a laboratory to discuss freely with another man in a laboratory; that would be stupid. Nor can we restrain proper research and discussion of a bona-fide character where-ever it may be. We have given some considerable thought to this matter, too, and, as the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, pointed out, the provisions in Clause 11 are very generous in their scope, and, on the whole, we should be inclined to think that they would provide adequate safe guards as they are. We are very anxious that scientists should be reassured, and I am hoping—I trust the noble Lord will not press me any further to-day—that, when we get into Committee, I shall have a suggestion to make, perhaps in the form of a further proviso, which will really cover the point he ha; in mind. But I am quite sure that we are all desirous of reassuring scientists that they will not be liable to petty persecution for bona-fide conversation or anything of that sort. I think I shall be able to meet the noble Lord's point when we get to the Committee stage.
LORD CHERWELL: I thank you very much.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE BILL.
House again in Committee (according to Order):
[THE EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]
Clause 42, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 43:
Powers of Minister where services are inadequate.
43. If the Minister is satisfied, after such inquiry as he may think fit, as respects any

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area or part of an area of an executive council that the persons included in any list prepared under this Part of this Act—

(a) of medical practitioners undertaking to provide general medical services;

(b) of persons undertaking to provide pharmaceutical services; or

(c) of dental practitioners undertaking to provide general dental services,

are not such as to secure the adequate pro vision of the services in question in that area or part, or that for any other reason any considerable number of persons in any such area or part are not receiving satisfactory services under the arrangements in force under this Part of this Act, he may authorize the executive council to make such other arrangements as he may approve, or may himself make other arrangements, and for the purpose of such other arrangements he may dispense with any of the requirements of regulations made under this Part of this Act.
3.25 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved to leave out "and for the purpose of such other arrangements he may dispense with any of the requirements of regulations made under this Part of the Act," and insert "provided that such other arrangements are within the authority conferred by this Act or any amendment thereof." The noble Lord said: My noble and learned friend Viscount Simon is unable to be here this afternoon; he is detained on an official engagement. Therefore, I beg leave to move the Amendment that stands in our joint names.
If your Lordships will look at Clause 43, you will see that it says:
"If the Minister is satisfied … as respects any area … that the persons included in any list prepared under this Part of this Act … are not such as to secure the adequate provision of the services in question … he may authorize the executive council to make such other arrangements as he may approve or may him self make other arrangements."
With that we should all be in complete agreement. But when the clause goes on to say:
"and for the purpose of such other arrangements be may dispense with any of the requirements of regulations made under this part of this Act."
then, in the view of some of us, that is going a bit too far. Because, after all, what would be the effect of that? As the Bill is drafted, there are provisions in it for regulations to be made which, in some cases, have to have the affirmative assent of each House of Parliament. In all the other cases they are liable to
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be negatived by Resolution in either House of Parliament.
And, of course, if these words are left exactly as drafted, the effect is that the Minister, if the arrangements were not thought adequate under the regulations, could quite well make a new regulation. There is nothing whatever to prevent his doing that, but, it seems to us to be a little steep that when perhaps the regulation has received the assent of each House of Parliament, the Minister should have power, the next week, if he likes, to alter that regulation. Surely the proper thing would be for him to come down and present to each House of Parliament a new regulation which would cover the point.
I fancy that these words may be rather wider than those who are sponsoring the Bill would wish them to be. Draftsmen are admirable people and they like to make the whole thing as watertight as possible. That is the reason why my noble and learned friend and I have put down an Amendment to leave out from "arrangements" to the end of the clause and to insert instead:
"provided that such other arrangements are within the authority conferred by this Act or any amendment thereof."
That is our Amendment. I am not particularly wedded to its wording, but I do think, and I hope that the Government will think, that the words in the Bill as drafted are too wide for their purpose. Nobody will disagree that the Minister should make adequate arrangements. It is only a question of the method he ought to adopt. The Minister ought not to adopt a method which might allow him to go right outside the provisions of this Bill or right outside regulations assented to by both Houses of Parliament. For those reasons I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 39, line 36, leave out from ("arrangements") to the end of the clause and insert the said new words.—(Lord Llewellin.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I want to support this Amendment in a very few words. I have spoken with my noble and learned friend Lord Simon, who is, unfortunately engaged in public duty at the present moment, and he is strongly of the opinion that the words at the end of Clause 43 would have an effect which, as my noble friend Lord Llewellin has said, could not have been intended. It cannot be right

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that, inasmuch as regulations under the Act have to be made pursuant to a number of requirements, the Minister who makes them can under the provisions of Clause 43, if he thinks fit, without the authority of Parliament given either by a negative or by a positive Resolution, disregard—the current word is "scrap"—all the requirements which have been laid down under the Act and can do anything he pleases. Accordingly I support the Amendment which my noble friend has proposed.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: May I add one word in support of this Amendment? We are entirely in favour of as much elasticity as necessary being given to the Minister charged with carrying out the scheme proposed by the Bill, but this is really elasticity run riot. There must be some modification of the present words be fore we can entrust to any Minister the power to ride roughshod over regulations made under the powers contained in the Bill.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): I think it would be as well to explain to the House the exact situation which the Minister had in mind when he included these words in Clause 43 which the noble Lord opposite is moving to omit. He is asking for an emergency power to meet certain exceptional circumstances. What sort of circum stances has he in mind? There might be, in a remote part of Wales or Scotland or in some remote country district in Eng land, an area without any dentist at all. In such an event the Minister would either himself or through the executive council have to supply a whole-time salaried dentist to serve the people living in that neighbourhood. He cannot do that by making a regulation under the Bill. I should like to emphasize the fact that this emergency power would obviously not be used except on the rarest occasions and would be limited to this specific purpose. I should also like to point out to the noble Lord that a provision of this kind is not without precedent. It has existed in a slightly different form for the past thirty-five years in relation to national health insurance. I do beg the noble Lords not to look at this thing from the point of view of giving the Minister arbitrary power to act without the authority of Parliament. That is not what is intended. It is solely desired by this provision, in the clause to
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enable the Minister to fill a gap which might occur in the health service.
LORD LLEWELLIN:I am afraid I do not quite follow the noble Earl's explanation. To take the instance he quoted, that if there was no dental practitioner in a particular area the Minister could not supply him by regulation. Of course he cannot because he would have to find a dentist and get him to go there, but I do not see that in order to get a dentist to go there he would have to dispense with any requirements of any regulation under this Bill. Of course the executive council ought to be able to make this known. It would be part of its function to do so. I cannot conceive why these last words overriding the regulations under this Bill are necessary if it is merely to see that there are enough medical officers or enough chemists or enough dentists in a particular area. I do not know what regulations you would have to get them there, but surely the regulations would all be designed to get the people there.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: May I add one word because the noble Lord, the Leader of the House, is going to reply and I want to say something for him to deal with? To my mind, speaking for my self, what I think is so dangerous in the last few words in Clause 43 is that the House of Commons and this House have no authority whatever to object. If the state of emergency which my noble friend Lord Listowel has mentioned arises it would be quite right that power should be given to the Minister to deal with the matter as one of emergency. If that were done it might be done under regulations which would be subject to the approval of each House of Parliament under Section 74. If you will give the Houses the right to criticize and, if necessary, to suggest Amendments in these emergency regulations, that would pacify most of us in this House. Where the regulations might extend beyond some thing previously authorized in the Bill and leave it entirely to the Minister with out enabling Parliament to express an opinion, that seems to me to be entirely wrong. I will only add this. There is nothing in the clause which seems to make the power one only exercisable in the case of an emergency. The word "emergency" does not occur in the clause and under this clause as it stands some thing might be done by which the Minister

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would authorize an executive council to make arrangements which might last for half a century.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I was going to make a suggestion which I hope will meet your Lordships. I quite recognize the misgivings that these somewhat comprehensive words promote. The illustration which my noble friend gave is quite right because the Minister can only make regulations in accordance with the powers conferred on him under the Bill. In the appointment of a whole-time dentist he has no power in the Bill and could not do anything of that kind by regulation. However, I am very anxious to meet the misgivings of the noble Lord if we can, and the point he has raised is that these powers are very comprehensive. They enable the Minister to dispense with the requirements of regulations made in this Part of the Bill. What is desired is that he should be able to take action to deal with a particular shortage or emergency that has been discovered. I think we might perhaps consider whether we can frame words on Report which would meet the needs of this particular emergency other than by general application. That is really what is wanted. If the noble Lord will allow us to look into it, I hope he will withdraw the Amendment on that understanding.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am very much obliged to the Leader of this House. Of course I will withdraw. Nobody wants the Minister not to have the power to deal with an immediate emergency of this sort. We certainly would be glad to avail our selves of his offer to look into the words and to meet us.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 43 agreed to.
Clause 44 [Recovery of charges in respect of certain appliances and dental treatment]:
3.33 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved to add to the clause:
"(3) Regulations may provide that a person providing general dental services who, with the full knowledge and consent of the patient renders treatment or provides appliances at a cost in excess of the prescribed charges, shall receive a grant equivalent to the amount of the charges prescribed for corresponding treatment and appliances upon satisfactory proof of services rendered and appliances provided in accordance with such regulations."
The noble Lord said: My noble friend Lord Teviot cannot be in the House, and he has asked me to move this Amendment, which is to insert the words on the Order Paper. As I understand it, this Amendment means that as all of us will be contributors under the scheme, which, among other things, will entitle us, if we reasonably require them, to false teeth, we shall be able to get the teeth we want. People have to have utility sets of false teeth, as they have had utility furniture and utility other things during the course of the war. Some people may like to have, and reasonably like to have, the teeth in perhaps a colour to match the ones on their left wing, or some detail of that sort. For that reason they go to the dentist and say: "I would like not just this utility set, but something a little better." If the dentist says he can supply what is asked for, this Amendment purports to say that, although the patient who wants this extra refinement, if it can be called a refinement, naturally has to pay the extra, he should be able to get the grant in aid to cover what the utility set, if I may so call it, would have cost.
That is the point of the Amendment. I do not think we want everybody going around looking quite the same, whether in the matter of teeth or in any other respect, because that would make us a very dull-looking nation. The people who want the small extra should be able to get the grant in aid to such an amount as the set would have cost if they had not wanted that particular refinement. That is the purport of the Amendment, moved perhaps on behalf of the large number of people who have been subscribers to these health schemes and rightly ought to have that little consideration. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 15, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Llewellin.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think if the noble Lord reads the clause carefully he will see that his point is already met. The clause provides for regulations permitting the dentist to make additional charges for (1) expensive appliances, which I imagine would include a luxury set of false teeth; and (2) such special dental treatment as may be prescribed—if, for instance, a person desires a gold filling. What happens in that case is that the dentist is authorized to make the

597
extra charge which covers the cost of the article or treatment and the additional cost is recovered from the patient; but the cost of the standard treatment or appliance is recovered by the dentist from public funds. That is what is proposed under the clause, which is, I think, precisely what the noble Lord requires. The Amendment to which he is speaking in fact goes very much further, but if the noble Lord does not wish to support the Amendment as it stands I will not weary your Lordships by replying to it.
LORD LLEWELLIN: If the noble Earl assures me that it is already achieved in the wording of the Bill, I am quite content.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: Could the noble Earl say exactly where it is?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: It is sub section (2) of this clause.
LORD LLEWELLIN: The words are, "may be…recovered by the person providing the services." Does that mean recovered from the funds or recovered from the patient? That is the point.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: What is recovered from the funds is the standard cost of the standard treatment or appliance. That is, so to speak, the utility treatment which every one will get. If they want luxury treatment they will have to pay for it out of their own pockets, and the cost of the luxury treatment is recovered by the dentist from the patient.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 44 agreed to.
Clauses 45 to 47 agreed to.
Clause 48:
Provision of courses for medical and dental practitioners.
48. For the purpose of affording opportunities for practitioners providing any ser vices under this part of this Act to keep themselves informed of the latest developments in professional knowledge, the Minister may enter into arrangements with universities, medical schools and dental schools, and any other persons for the provision of courses which such practitioners may attend, and may, with the approval of the Treasury, make payments towards the cost of the provision of such courses and the expenses of practitioners attending such courses.
3.45 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING THE MARQUESS OF READING moved, after "Act," to insert "and for nurses employed in connexion with services pro vided under any Part of this Act." The noble Marquess said: This clause, as your Lordships will observe, makes arrangements for the provision of courses for medical and dental practitioners. No doubt those practitioners will be grateful for the appearance of that clause in this Bill, because it will enable them to keep themselves up to date and to exercise the highest degree of skill and efficiency in the interests of their patients. Those practitioners would surely be the first to agree that their skill, and consequently their reputation and the recovery and comfort of their patients, depends to a very large extent upon the quality of the nursing service which is available for the assistance of the doctors themselves and for the actual direct care by the nurses of the patients. It cannot be expected that the nurses will maintain their standard of efficiency unless they too are given the chance to bring themselves up to date and to keep themselves up to standard by attending such courses as may be made available.
The purpose of this Amendment is the very simple one of including within the scope of the provisions for brining and keeping up to date the knowledge of medical practitioners a similar provision embracing the nursing service. I am encouraged in putting down this Amendment by the sight immediately following it on the paper of an Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Horder, who can speak on these matters, and I hope will speak on them, with far greater knowledge and experience than I can. However, I suggest that it is right in principle and it is something which not only would be welcomed by the nurses but to which they are entitled. If it seems to the Government representatives that the Amendment would not be most happily contained in this particular clause and could better be inserted in some other part of the Bill, that is a matter to which I attach no particular importance, but that it should appear at some point in this Bill I do think is of real moment to the nursing profession. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 44, after ("Act") insert ("and for nurses employed in connexion with

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services provided under any Part of this Act").—(The Marquess of Reading.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I rise only to point out that it is purely permissive. If the Minister does not like to do it be need not do it. It simply gives him the power.
LORD HORDER: As the noble Marquess indicated, I am entirely with him in this Amendment; indeed, I think it is possible that if this Amendment were allowed, or some assurance equivalent to it were given, I need not move the Amendment which stands in my name. However, this does give me the opportunity of endorsing what the noble Marquess has said, and what we all surely know, in respect of the importance attaching to the nurse's work. Next to the doctors it will be the nurses upon whom the success of working this scheme will fall. It has struck many of us that there is totally inadequate reference to the work of nurses throughout this Bill. It is assumed that there will be a standing advisory committee in respect of nursing and regulations will no doubt be framed which deal with the nurse's contribution to the working of this scheme. All the same, bearing in mind the very great importance attaching to the nurse's contribution and the fact that here was one place at least where reference could be made to the nurse's training I was emboldened to put down the Amendment which follows that of the noble Marquess. The nurse is very keen upon her training; she is as keen upon being kept up to date with her work as is the doctor himself.
When this matter came up for discussion in another place the Minister—who was, I think, very tired and perhaps a little provoked, if I may judge by the context—said that this matter would adjust itself quite easily because there was always the hospital for the nurse to go back to "The hospitals are there," said the Minister, "and if a nurse wishes she can go into a hospital; there is no reason against it." That is a totally in adequate means of dealing with this very important question of the post-graduate training of nurses. At this moment there are courses for the training of nurses prepared under the aegis of authoritative in situations such as the Royal College of Nursing.
I know that the Minister was sympathetic towards the opticians in this respect, because, being pursued through
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this mood of aggravation by some dominant person on behalf of the opticians, he said, "I will look into this thing again"—"this thing" being the question of opticians being included amongst those practitioners rendering hospital services whose post-graduate (if I may use that word in respect of the opticians) studies should receive some attention. If the Minister can be sympathetic towards the opticians, I think he can be as sympathetic, if not more sympathetic, to wards the nurses. Although I am perfectly willing to leave the question of whether my Amendment is adequately dealt with by the noble Marquess's Amendment to the noble Viscount or the noble Earl, I do press that in this clause a specific reference should be made to the help which the Minister can give in the matter of refresher courses and other training studies for the qualified nurse.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: This short discussion has caused me to reflect how badly the Government are treated. For the first time in my life, here is the State going out of its way to make provision for medical men to have post-graduate training and to get refresher courses, and not even one noble Lord says, "Thank you." It is amazing! In our view, London offers a unique opportunity for developing post-graduate training. There is no place in the world which has equal facilities, and it is our intention to do whatever we can to help the medical profession and the teaching colleges so to develop. That is one of the reasons why this clause is in the Bill. I should have thought it would have evoked some sentiments of appreciation. But it has not, and that shows how badly our Public Relations Department seems to function! The only thanks we get is that we are asked to do something more.
LORD HORDER: The noble Viscount says the Government have not been thanked. I should like to repair that omission in order that more can be accomplished.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: These belated thanksgivings rather lose their spice! However, I will take it as read. Nurses are different from the practitioners dealt with in Part IV of the Bill. The practitioners under Part IV of the Bill are those who are paid, notwithstanding the Amendment yesterday, partly, I hope, by

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basic salary and partly by capitation fees. But however they may be paid, they are not whole-time servants and it is in order to help men who are not whole-time servants to get this training that this provision is inserted. Those who are whole-time servants, such as nurses and any medical men who are employed whole-time, will be provided with facilities and will be expected to undergo regular refresher courses. That is a very proper condition of the tenure of office of people of that kind.
What the noble Marquess is referring to is the nurses who are whole-time servants and who are not the type of part-time person meant to be helped by this provision, and who will in fact be helped. I can assure him that in the ordinary way it is the intention that those who are full-time employees of this character will be required to have refresher courses and that the same facilities will be made available for them. So far as this particular Amendment is concerned, it relates to a clause dealing with medical practitioners under Part IV of the Bill who are part-time and not employed whole-time. It is in order to assist that class of person that this provision is made. Therefore the noble Marquess's Amendment really is not appropriate, but the spirit of it will be carried out just the same.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I confess I am much more concerned with the spirit than with the actual wording of the Amendment, and as the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, gives us an assurance that it is the intention to provide adequate courses for the whole-time, fully-employed nurse, I do not propose to press this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.58 p.m.
LORD HORDER LORD HORDER moved at the end of clause to insert: "(2) For the purpose of this clause 'practitioners' to include certain classes of nurses not otherwise covered in this respect." The noble Lord said: I am not satisfied that the purpose of this Amendment is covered by the assurance given by the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House. The noble Viscount speaks of the provisions for medical practitioners referred to in Clause 48, which is the clause under discussion, but it will be noted that Clause 48 refers to "practitioners" and not to "medical
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practitioners." There is obviously an intention to distinguish between practitioners and medical practitioners, because Clause 48 is to some extent consequential upon Clause 43, which refers to three classes of persons rendering services. The first is the medical practitioner, the second is the person undertaking to provide pharmaceutical services, and the third is the dental practitioner, who may or may not be a qualified medical man.
Coming back to Clause 48, it is quite obvious that it is not only medical practitioners to whom facilities are to be given for post-graduate teaching. That is all the more necessary, I think, especially as I referred to the half promise which the Minister made to include opticians amongst these practitioners providing any service under this Part of the Bill. The possibility of opticians being included with dispensers and dental practitioners makes it, I think, all the more important that a distinct reference should be made in this clause to similar facilities being afforded to nurses. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 7, at end insert—
("(2) For the purpose of this clause 'practitioners' to include certain classes of nurses not otherwise covered in this respect.").—(Lord Horder.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I rise to support this Amendment and to add one word in reference to the clause itself. The clause provides that:
"the Minister may.… with the approval of the Treasury, make payments to wards the cost of the provision of such courses and the expenses of practitioners attending such courses."
That will enable provision to be made for the cost of doctors and dentists in relation to their expenses of attendance. Unless the Amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Horder is accepted, the Treasury cannot make payment towards the cost of expenses of nurses attending such courses, however specialized the nature of their occupation may be and how ever desirable it may be that they should have the instruction to be obtained from such courses.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: We shall look into the question of definition raised by the noble Lord, but this relates to "practitioners"—however that word may be subsequently defined—who are not wholly employed, but who are partly employed—
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: What makes it so limited?
VISCOUNT ADDISON: Do allow me to finish my sentence.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I apologize humbly to the noble Lord for interrupting him, but when he is saying something as to the effect of a clause which seems to me, with all my experience of construing documents of this sort, to be inaccurate, the kindest thing I can do is to interrupt him there and to say that I humbly submit he is wrong. I am very sorry if it annoys him, but I think it is part of my duty.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: The noble Viscount did not in the least annoy me, and I am sorry if it seemed that I was annoyed, but I was, I thought, half way through a sentence. I accept, of course, that the noble Lord is infinitely more expert than I can ever hope to be in construing these documents, but I am advised that the word "practitioner" here relates to those who are employed part time under Part IV of the Bill, and the scope of the word will require to be defined. You will notice it says in the margin, "medical and dental practitioners." In any case, it clearly does not include nurses who are employed whole time by any board or hospital management committee; they are not included in this part of the Bill at all. As I have already assured noble Lords, the provisions of engagement for that type of person will be that they are required to have refresher courses periodically, and that will be carried out in a bona-fide manner. I think that really meets the point.
LORD HORDER: I would like to ask if I am not correct in saying that "medical and dental practitioners" in the margin is a misprint, and that it should be "provision of courses for practitioners." I was informed that "medical and dental" should be deleted.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: That may be so. As I have promised, I am going to look into this question of definition, and I will certainly do so, especially in the light of the admonition of the noble Lord below the gangway.
LORD HORDER: I am very reluctant to withdraw this Amendment, because I think there is still a good deal of confusion. If I could be assured that on
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the Report stage some of this confusion would be cleared up, I should perhaps be more willing to withdraw the Amendment. The confusion to which I have already referred, and would refer again, is the use of the term "medical practitioners" in some clauses and "practitioners" in others. As I say, I was informed that "medical and dental practioners" in the margin is a misprint, from which I conclude that recognition is given to practitioners who may not be medical practitioners but who are persons rendering services under the Bill. At present those practitioners not registered include a good many dentists and, I presume, most dispensers and persons undertaking to provide pharmaceutical services. Possibly when the Minister thinks again, as he has promised to do, he will include opticians. In view, therefore, of the building up of that group of non-medical persons rendering services under the Act, if that group still remains and is referred to in Clause 48, I think my Amendment should stand. But if this point could be brought up again at a later stage I am prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I can quite see there is confusion in the use of the word "practitioner," and I think it ought to be cleared up.
LORD HORDER: That is all I wanted to establish. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 48 agreed to.
Clauses 49 to 52 agreed to.
Clause 53:
Grants to local health authorities.
(4) The council of every county and county borough, the Common Council of the City of London and the council of every metropolitan borough shall pay to the Minister in respect of the period beginning with the appointed day and ending with the thirty-first day of March next following, and each subsequent period of twelve months during the third fixed grant period within the meaning of the Local Government Act, 1929, a sum equal to the loss on account of the grants mentioned in paragraph 2 of the Second Schedule to the Local Government Act, 1929, discontinued by virtue of Section eighty-five of that Act, as determined in accordance with Part II of the Fourth Schedule to that Act, less such part of that loss as is attributable to grants for the welfare of the blind:
Provided that—

(a) where the said loss on account of the said grants has, in the case of the council of any county or county borough, the Common Council of the City of London or the council of any metropolitan borough, been increased or reduced by an amount certified by the Minister under regulations made under paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of Section one hundred and eight of the Local Government Act, 1929, the payment to be made by the council under this sub section shall be increased or reduced by such part of the amount so certified as is attributable to the said grants other than grants for the welfare of the blind;

(b) in the case of a county or county borough or metropolitan borough constituted since the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, the amount to be paid by the council thereof under this section shall be the amount certified by the Minister under the said regulations as the loss of that county or county borough or metropolitan borough on account of the said grants, less such part of that amount as is attributable to grants for the welfare of the blind;

(c) if the said third fixed grant period ends during the period beginning with the appointed day and ending with the thirty-first day of March next following or during any subsequent period of twelve months, the payments to be made by councils under this subsection in respect of that period shall bear the same proportion to the sums that would be payable in respect of a complete period of twelve months as that period bears to a complete period of twelve months.

4.8 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved to leave out subsection (4). The noble Lord said: This is an attempt to see that the interim financial provisions of subsection (4) of Clause 53 are deleted and replaced by something which is a good deal simpler and much more generous to local authorities. I understand that the Government hope the new block grant arrangements will be in operation before the appointed day for the National Health Service Bill. Therefore, the interim financial provisions of subsection (4) will not be brought into operation at all. In that event this Amendment would not apply. But it does seem necessary to have a clause of some sort in the Bill in case it may not be possible to keep the time-table which the Government have in mind.
The serious objection to the present proposal is that in some areas of low financial resources the hospital facilities are not highly developed. It follows, therefore, that reduction in their rate of expenditure will be correspondingly small when the hospitals transfer to the Government.
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On the other hand, the block grant is weighted somewhat heavily in favour of those poorer local authorities. Therefore, any major reduction in the block grant I think will accordingly fall with particular severity on authorities who are really least able bear it. If, therefore, there is to be some adjustment the local authorities do suggest that it should be one which does substantial justice to all the parties affected. If there is to be an interim period it will be very short. It is suggested that it would have been a generous gesture and one which would perhaps bring some financial benefit to the local authorities if the Government had been prepared to ignore the fact that there was reflected in these block grants during the interim period some assistance towards the rate-borne expenditure which would no longer fall on the local authorities. This course would have avoided much work and many calculations. These block grants are very complicated and they are by no means easy to work out. That is what my Amendment proposes. I have rather gathered that the matter is still under discussion between the representatives of the local authorities and the Government, and I hope, there fore, that noble Lords opposite will be able to obtain some more satisfactory arrangement than the one which is at present in force.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 40, leave out subsection (4).—(Lord Addington.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The object of the subsection in Clause 53 which the noble Lord wishes to leave out, is to prevent local authorities from being paid twice for the same service. That, I think, puts the position in a sentence. A sum equal to the total amount of the old specific grants towards the health services which were discontinued by the Local Government Act, 1929, is included in the present block grant. There will be again under this Bill a specific health service grant towards the health services run by the local authorities, and those authorities would clearly be receiving double grant during any period in which both the new grants under the Bill and the existing block grants were being paid. If this should happen it seems only common sense that they should be asked to pay back the additional amount. We hope, as the noble Lord said, that this Bill and

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a Bill terminating the old block grant will come into force on the same date. In that case the subsection which he wishes to leave out will not be operative. But we do wish to keep it in the Bill because if the time-table were to go wrong the Exchequer would lose a sum of something like £4,000,000 a year. I should have thought that the proper procedure if certain health authorities feel that they are not receiving enough would be to negotiate with the Ministry with a view to new grants being made.
LORD ADDINGTON: The proposition is that under the clause some of these small authorities have to pay back a lot more than they are saved. Whether it is possible to adjust the amount so that what they pay back in respect of block grant is not greater than the amount they are saved on their services is a matter which I suggest should receive consideration. I think that a great deal of work and calculation would be saved if something could be done in this connexion.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think it is certainly a matter for discussion between the authorities concerned and the Ministry.
LORD ADDINGTON: In view of what the noble Lord has said I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 53 agreed to.
Clause 54:
Payments to Regional Hospital Boards, boards of governors, executive councils and other bodies.
54.—(1) There shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament to—
(b) every board of governors of a teaching hospital such sums as may be necessary to defray the expenditure of the board being expenditure approved as aforesaid.
4.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, at the end of subsection (1) (b), to add "by means of block grants based on an annual budget." The noble Earl said: This is a very simple Amendment. Clause 54 provides that there shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament to "every board of governors of a teaching hospital such sums as may be necessary to defray the expenditure of
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the board," as aforesaid. I want to amend that so as to provide for the payment to the boards of governors of teaching hospitals of the necessary finance by means of block grants based on an annual budget as was suggested in the White Paper. It seems to me that freedom to spend within the budget would ensure a very much easier way of going about the matter. It would also avoid frequent references not only to the Minister but also to the Treasury. I think it is the intention of the Government to do this but instead of having it done by regulation I would myself much rather see it put into Clause 54.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 4, at end insert ("by means of block grants based on an annual budget").—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think that the object which the noble Earl and the Government desire to achieve is the same, and the only matter about which they differ is the best way of achieving it. We have already accepted the principle laid down by the noble Earl. It is the intention of the Government that the finances of the boards of governors of teaching hospitals (and, incidentally of hospital management committees) should be based on an approved annual budget within which they would have complete discretion to spend as they thought fit. In other words, the hospital authorities would be free to allocate their income to purposes of their own choosing so long as they adhered reasonably closely to their annual budget. I am not saving that one of them might not overspend to a small degree in a particular year or that in another year they might not spend slightly less, but that would be the frame work within which they would work. We consider that our procedure is more proper. Arrangements for the preparation and submission of these budgets will be extremely complicated, and instead of overloading the Bill with detail, we think that it will be more convenient to deal with the matter in the regulations to be made under subsection (6) of this clause. I assure the noble Earl that regulations are really more convenient when the matter is one of great complexity and detail. And the Bill would become extremely voluminous and unwieldy if we were to put all these matters into the actual wording of its clauses.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I cannot say that I agree but nevertheless I will withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 54 agreed to.
Clause 55:
Accounts of councils of county boroughs, Regional Hospital Boards, boards of governors and executive councils.
55.—(1) Every local health authority being the council of a county borough shall keep account of the sums received and expended by them in the exercise of their functions as such an authority, whether under this Act or under any other enactment, and those accounts shall be made up and audited in like manner as the accounts of a county council and shall be kept separately from their other accounts; and the enactments relating to the audit of accounts by a district auditor and to the matters incidental to such audit and consequential thereon shall have effect in relation to the accounts which the council of a county borough are required to keep under this section as they have effect in relation to the accounts of a county council.
4.18 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "a county council" and insert "the council under the Local Government Act, 1933." The noble Lord said: This Amendment deals with the audit of the accounts of county boroughs. Some of these accounts such as those relating to education and public assistance are at present audited by the district auditor. But as regards other accounts, including the accounts covered by the service of the block grant, such as the present health service, the county borough has the choice of three methods of audit—the borough or elective audit, the professional audit, and audit by the district auditor. Out of eighty-three county boroughs, only nine have selected audit by the district auditor. And it cannot be said that these county boroughs have chosen that method entirely voluntarily. The vast majority appoint professional auditors, because elective audit is going out of existence in the larger towns, and they certainly will continue to do so.
These county boroughs are towns with large populations. The councils are in close touch with the electors, and are not given to extravagance. At the same time, by reason of the fact that they are the elected representatives of the people they desire to exercise reasonably wide discretion in the performance of their duties, and this discretion a district audit tends
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to confine within unnecessarily narrow limits. There are various examples of unnecessary fettering of discretion which, a district audit imposes, but I will not trouble your Lordships by citing any of them now. The services in relation to public health that are to remain with these local authorities are now to be limited in their scope.
We see no reason why the existing discretion of the county boroughs in regard to their audit should be taken away. There was a similar attempt to impose a district audit for the housing accounts of these county boroughs in the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, but at the request of the municipal associations the Government agreed to delete that provision. I hope that the noble Lords in charge of the Bill will be willing to follow that precedent, and take the provision out of this Bill also. I think that the question of imposing any particular form of audit on such important bodies as county boroughs, if it is to be tackled at all, should be dealt with as a whole, and not service by service, piecemeal in different fields. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 41, leave out ("a county council") and insert ("the council under the Local Government Act, 1933").—(Lord Addington.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am sure that the first point which will strike your Lordships is that in this Bill district audit is imposed alike on county boroughs and county councils. The noble Lord is pleading for special treatment for the county boroughs. It is the duty of the local health authorities to provide an important part of the national service, and towards this a substantial contribution is received from the Exchequer. In the case of similar services provided by the local authorities—for example, education services, including elementary schools, secondary schools and all schools financed out of public funds—the accounts are subject to audit by independent district auditors. What the noble Lord is suggesting is that county councils should be subject to district audit, while the councils of county boroughs which are doing exactly the same work should be exempted, and should have, I imagine, professional auditors of their own choosing. Surely that is undesirable because the councils would be in a different position

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from other authorities doing precisely the same work, and because as they are the people who are spending large sums of public money, this type of independent audit is appropriate. I hope very much that the noble Lord will reconsider his Amendment in the light of these considerations.
LORD ADDINGTON: I will not say that I am satisfied. It is a point about which these important bodies feel very strongly. They feel that they are important enough and possess sufficient discretion, to have their accounts audited in the way they think best. There are other services—I believe housing, for one—which are subject to similar grants and where the accounts may be professionally audited. In some ways, they do retain their independence. I am in the hands of the House, and as I do not seem in a position to press my Amendment, I will withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 55 agreed to.
Clauses 56 to 59 agreed to.
Clause 60:
Power of trustees to make payments to Regional Hospital Boards and boards of governors.
60.—(1) Where property, other than property transferred to the Minister or to the board of governors of a teaching hospital under Section six or Section seven of this Act, is held on trust immediately before the appointed day … the trust instrument shall be construed as authorizing or, as the case may be, requiring the trustees to apply the trust property, to the like extent and at the like times, for the purpose of making payments whether of capital or income—
(b) in the case of any other hospital, to the Regional Hospital Board for the area in which the hospital is situated.
4.25 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, at the end of subsection (1) (b), to add "or to the hospital management committee of that hospital or of the group within which that hospital is comprised." The noble Earl said: I think that this Amendment is of some importance, but it is almost a drafting Amendment. Under Clause 59, as I understand it, the hospital management committees have power to receive gifts for purposes relating to hospital ser vices. It seems to me also that the power
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of trustees should be delegated in subsection (1) (b) of Clause 60 down to the hospital management committees. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 22, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The noble Earl said that his Amendment was based on the desire to make an improvement in the drafting of the Bill. I can assure him that we will look at it from all angles, and see, between this and the Report stage, whether any improvement can be made.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: To give power to trustees, under Clause 60, to delegate not to Regional Boards but to the lower level of hospital management committees. With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 60 agreed to.
Clauses 61 to 64 agreed to.
Clause 65:
Qualifications, remuneration, and conditions of service of officers.
65. Regulations may make provision with respect to the qualifications, remuneration, and conditions of service of any officers employed by any body constituted under this Act or employed by a local health authority or by any such voluntary organization as is referred to in the last but one foregoing section, and no officer to whom the regulations apply shall be employed otherwise than in accordance with the regulations.
4.27 p.m.
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved to leave out "a local health authority or by." The noble Lord said: Clause 65 is a very wide one. It authorizes the Minister to make regulations with respect to the "qualifications, remuneration and conditions of service of any officers employed by any body constituted under this Actor employed by a local health authority." The object of this Amendment is to exempt from the action of this clause a county council or county borough council. The County Councils' Association feel very strongly about the subject matter of this Amendment. They feel that the Minister already has powers under the Local Government Act, 1933, to deal with the qualifications possessed by medical officers of health for counties or county boroughs. The Association also feel that adequate machinery

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exists for negotiations between local government bodies and all classes of their employees.
There are a great many regulations laid down as to the salaries of various employees. The Asquith Agreement controls the salaries of medical officers, and national joint councils for administrative professional, technical and clerical services of local government authorities govern the salaries of all employees earning more than £700 a year. In addition to this, there are scales laid down for employees engaged in hospitals, and for the subordinate staff in hospitals. Recently, the National Joint Council for administrative and technical staffs have prescribed a national scheme of salaries and conditions of service for local government staffs. From the county council of which I am a member, I know that a great deal of trouble has been taken to implement these regulations. Negotiations have taken place between the county council and all the representatives of the employees under them. We have consulted, in the most friendly manner, the representatives of the National Association of Local Government Officers and the other bodies concerned. After a great deal of trouble, scales of salaries have been satisfactorily decided for all these employees.
And let me say here, that it is a very difficult problem to make these salaries fit in with one another. When you have settled the salaries of the health workers, you find that workers in other departments may not be satisfied, and alterations have to be made to bring them into line. These negotiations have been carried out by a very large number of the local government bodies throughout the country. Out of 1,530 local authorities, 1,232—that is, about 80 per cent.—have already adopted these scales and conditions of service. It seems to me that that is a very remarkable figure.
I think it is possible that the noble Lord in charge of this Bill may say that the object of Clause 65 is to deal with those few authorities who fail to comply with these regulations. I would point out, in answer to that, that machinery exists, and will no doubt continue to exist, whereby the authorities who do not conform to these scales and conditions of service may be brought before the National Arbitration Tribunal, and have the scales compulsorily
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imposed upon them. It seems to me that with all these regulations and arrangements the employees are very carefully safeguarded against the unfair or niggardly authority, and it also seems to me that no further regulations are necessary to enable the Minister to step in and interfere with the arrangements made by these authorities and the various negotiating bodies. It appears to me that the tendency of this clause is to go against: the principle adopted in the Whitley Councils of negotiating between employers and employed, and I think it would be very much better, in the case of the local health authorities, if this provision in this clause were removed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 25, leave out ("a local health authority or by").—(Lord Henley.)
LORD ADDINGTON: On behalf of the municipal authorities of the country who feel very strongly about this matter, I very warmly support this Amendment. I need not go over again the points so adequately dealt with by my noble friend Lord Henley. There are statutory requirements and negotiating machinery that already fully cover all the class of officers who come under this Bill. The clause extends the control of the Minister to a number of officers—practically nearly all the officers of the council—some of whose duties during part of the time would be concerned with some of the services rendered under this Bill. It would only be part of their duties. So that if the Minister could not fix their salary and conditions of service for a very small part of their time, it would make the position of the employing authority almost unworkable. I think these pro visions are quite unnecessary and extremely unwise, and I hope that the Government will be able to accept this Amendment.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The effect of the Amendment in the name of the two noble Lords opposite would be to omit from the category of persons employed by health authorities under the Bill, and whose qualifications, remuneration and terms of service will be fixed by the Minister, those officers who are in the employment of local heath authorities. I should like to remind the noble Lord opposite that his Amendment applies also to their qualifications although I think in

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his speech he was dealing either exclusively, or almost exclusively, with their remuneration and conditions of employment generally.
As the noble Lord quoted some opposite instances, I think I ought to point out that the qualifications of the health officers of local health authorities are very often prescribed by the Minister. This happens now in the case of tuberculosis officers, maternity and child-welfare officers and venereal disease officers, and it has been found to be a convenient and useful practice for the standard of qualification to be settled centrally. There is no reason that I can see to suppose that it would not be equally efficacious in the case of people employed by local authorities as health officers under this Bill. I think there is great advantage in having a standard of qualifications laid down centrally.
To come to the question of remuneration and terms of service, with which I think the noble Lord opposite was mainly concerned, I do ask him to believe that there is advantage to the staff of local authorities in uniformity of pay and other conditions of service, which you would not get, of course, if the local authorities were fixing their terms separately or even by agreement, without having a complete agreement covering the whole field of the local authorities, because this uniformity facilitates transfer and promotion. I do not want any misunderstanding to arise about the actual part that the Minister would play in arriving at these conclusions. The Minister would not, of course, decide on the rates of pay or other conditions affecting the employment of officers by a local authority without the fullest consultation with the authorities concerned. I think the noble Lord imagines that that is a very small step in the right direction. I agree, but I am going further. The usual way in which such questions would be dealt with would be by negotiation between both sides through machinery of the Whitley Council type, which has very generally been used by Government services with the most satisfactory results and, of course, the local health authorities would be directly represented on the negotiating bodies. I do think, when all things are considered, that this would be the most satisfactory way of giving a fair deal to
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the staff of these local authorities, in so far as they are concerned with the health services, and I hope that your Lordships will agree.
LORD LLEWELLIN: There is one remark I should like to make on this particular clause, and it is that, perhaps as a pure matter of drafting, the clause has been drawn rather too wide. It says:
"Regulations may make provision with respect to the qualifications, remuneration and conditions of service of any officers employed by … a local health authority."
That is extremely wide and means that you are giving the Minister power, under this Bill, to make regulations with regard to any officer employed by a public health authority. That is too wide. It ought to be limited to persons who are mainly so employed for the purposes of this Act. Then I think it would be quite proper, and it would run along the lines of "all persons employed by any body constituted under this Act," for which of course regulations will have to be made. I think it is far too wide if under this clause of this Bill you take power to provide by regulations for the qualifications, remuneration and conditions of service of everybody employed by what is termed a public health authority. For my part, I should like the noble Earl for the Government to look into that point and to see whether he could not largely meet the purposes for which this Amendment was put down by putting these words in with regard to the officers employed by local authorities.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think I can meet the noble Lord about that point. It is clearly the intention of the clause only to cover the health officers of local authorities, and, if it is too widely drawn, we will try to narrow it down.
LORD ADDINGTON: If I may make one observation, the noble Earl talked about qualifications. I think the qualifications of the health officers are distinctly laid down in the Local Government Act as at present. One of the points is that you have already got regulations somewhat statutory; in other words, negotiating machinery which covers these officers, and negotiating machinery which deals with them along with many other officers in a comparative position in the service of local authorities. A new set of regulations dealing with one class of officer only may upset the whole of the comparative salaries

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of those in the health service and other services in the same category. I leave that to the noble Lord who moved the Amendment.
LORD HENLEY: I am very glad to hear that this clause is confined only to the health workers of the local health authority, but I feel, even after that concession has been made, that the principle involved in this clause is a wrong one. After all, previously we have tended to rely upon Whitley Councils and arrangements similar to Whitley Councils for negotiations between employers and employed, and I do not see why we should go away from our adherence to that principle. It seems to me that we should stick to this Amendment very strongly. We should press it because, even with the restrictions that have been made, it is giving the Minister too much power to interfere in the business of the county councils. As has been already said, it is not that it will only apply to public health, but directly you begin to change the salaries and wages of the public health workers you immediately upset the balance of the whole of the scale that you have carefully arranged with all the employees of the county council.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 65 agreed to.
Clause 66:
Superannuation of officers.
(2) If the Minister and a Secretary of State are satisfied that any Act for the time being in force in Scotland or in Northern Ireland makes provision with respect to the superannuation of persons employed in health services in Scotland or Northern Ireland which is substantially similar to the provision made under this section, they may make regulations with respect to the rights and liabilities of any person so employed who leaves his employment and enters into employment in respect of which superannuation benefits are provided under regulations made under subsection (1) of this section or into the employment of a local health authority in respect of which superannuation benefits are provided under the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, as extended or modified by the regulations or under a local Act scheme as so extended or modified, and vice versa, and with respect to the rights and liabilities of the Minister, the Secretary of State and other authorities concerned.
4.42 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "so employed who leaves his employment" and insert
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"who leaves employment in Scotland or Northern Ireland entitling him to participate in superannuation benefits (whether provided under the said Act or otherwise)" The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to confirm the pension rights of cert in health officers which would otherwise be prejudiced. The intention of subsection (2) of Clause 66 is that when the Scottish National Health Service Bill has been passed regulations shall provide for the preservation and safe guarding of the superannuation rights of the health officers in Scotland who transfer to England. As drafted at the moment, the subsection only enables this to be done in relation to officers employed in the health services in Scotland. It is hoped, however, that suitable entrants to the health services in England, whether central or local, might come also from the Scottish local government service and this Amendment has been drafted to cover these people.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 26, leave out ("so employed who leaves his employment") and insert ("who leaves employment in Scotland or Northern Ireland entitling him to participate in superannuation benefits (whether provided under the said Act or otherwise)").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD LLEWELLIN: This seems to us correct and in order, so far as I could hear the noble Lord above the hubbub that seemed to be taking place.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 66, as amended, agreed to.
Transfer and Compensation of Officers.
67.—(1) Regulations shall provide—
(a) for the transfer of officers employed immediately before the appointed day solely or mainly at or for the purposes of any hospital transferred to the Minister by virtue of this Act, to the Regional Hospital Board for the area in which the hospital is situated or, in the case of a teaching hospital, to the Board of Governors of that hospital, subject, in the case of honorary officers, to such exceptions and conditions as may be prescribed;
4.44 p.m.
LORD COZENS-HARDY LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, in subsection (1) (a), to leave out "hospital," where that word first occurs, and insert "one or more hospitals." The noble Lord said: Your Lordships are aware that in recent years a large part of the regular income of the voluntary hospitals has been obtained by contributory

619
schemes. Where such a scheme is confined to a single hospital its staff will, under the Bill, be transferred under Clause 67. Where a group of hospitals has been associated in a contributory scheme its staff is not covered by the wording of the clause. I think it is generally agreed that the grouping of hospitals in contributory schemes has been the most efficient plan, and it has been adopted by the most progressive hospitals. I speak of these matters from personal knowledge as I happen to have been Chairman of one of the largest of these schemes for the first ten years of its existence. It had a life of seventeen years and had an income in that period of £4,500,000. That scheme, and all these schemes, have very experienced staffs and much of the time of these staffs is employed not on the actual organization of the collection of contributions but on personal touch with contributors and their needs.
The experience of such staffs should be of inestimable value to the bodies which, under the Bill, it is to be hoped will continue that close personal touch with the insured contributor and his requirements which is so valuable in cases of illness. No body of men or women, whether employed by a single hospital or by a great body to which a group of hospitals have delegated the work, could be more suitable for transfer under the new arrangement set up in the Bill. In another place the Minister has attempted to excuse the exclusion of officers of grouped hospitals by dwelling on the difficulty of drawing a line between those who can fairly claim to be solely or mainly employed for the purpose of these hospitals and those who cannot so claim. But the Minister has drawn the line, and I submit he has manifestly drawn it in the wrong place, a view in which I was very glad to have the support of my noble friend Lord Beveridge, in his able Second Reading speech. The Minister's reference in another place to the absurdity of giving the protection of this clause to such people as lawyers' clerks, who may from time to time be engaged on documents relating to endowments, seems to me to be very wide of the mark. The officers I refer to are employed on a whole-time basis solely or mainly for the purposes of a group of transferred hospitals. No one can seriously doubt that if not transferred to a new authority the officers of a
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single hospital scheme and of a multi-hospital scheme will be in the same position in suffering loss of employment, a loss directly attributable to the passing of this measure, and it seems impossible to justify giving the protection of this clause to the one set of officers and denying it to the other.
The grounds for this differentiation seem to be that technically the latter set are not officers of a transferred hospital but are officers of a body which a group of hospitals has joined in forming in order to exercise collectively the functions of a contributory scheme. If the hospitals in the group had continued to operate separate contributory schemes in competition with one another the officers employed on the competing schemes would have had the protection of Clause 67. In another place the Minister, whilst declining to entitle officers to transfer under this clause unless they were employed by a single hospital, promised to do his best to absorb them. I submit that they should be entitled to something more definite, and the object of my first Amendment is to give them a statutory right to transfer.
In another place also the Minister made great play about the cost of compensating such people, but in my submission their special experience and abilities, coupled with the Minister's assurances as to their future employment, should reduce to negligible proportions the number to be compensated under my second Amendment. In any event, surely the case should be dealt with on the basis of equity and not on a question of costs. I hope very much that noble Lords in charge of the Bill will feel able to accept the Amendment standing in my name, or to bring forward at a later stage wording to the same effect more acceptable to their advisers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 39, leave out ("hospital") and insert ("one or more hospitals").—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
LORD BEVERIDGE: I should like to support this Amendment, to which I referred in speaking on the Second Reading. When I was engaged in making the report on social insurance and allied services, which had something to do with bringing this matter forward, I saw representatives of these contributory associations a number of times. I was very much impressed

621
with the excellent work they were doing, and also with their readiness to accept the probable extinction of what they were doing when it was merged into this much larger scheme. It is clear that what they did was of great value in accustoming the people of this country to the idea of paying for their hospital treatment before hand when they had the money. Certainly those associations did a great deal of valuable work. I suggest that those who were working not for one hospital alone, or for each of a number of competing hospitals, but were working for a group of hospitals who had decided to give up competition in favour of co-operation should not be penalized. That is the whole point of this Amendment, whether we are to going to draw the line between the people who work for one hospital only, and all the rest, or between the people who work for a group set of hospitals and all the people who are indirectly damaged by this Bill.
We realize that you cannot compensate everybody who suffers indirectly by every Act of Parliament, but the point of this Amendment is that the people employed by four hospitals together to raise money am as directly affected as the people who work for one hospital. I do not think I need go over again all the things that were said on this point in the other place. Those things have all been adequately covered by my noble friend Lord Cozens-Hardy. I very much hope the Government will feel able to show a conciliatory spirit on this small point. It is a small point, but it is one which gives the Government a great opportunity of showing a conciliatory spirit in drawing the line rather differently from where they have drawn it in the past.
LORD LLEWELLIN: May I just say one word on this? I do not think any body would want so far to extend this compensation as to compensate part-time officers, but I think, at any rate throughout the course of recent Parliamentary history, it has always been accepted that where by Act of Parliament you destroy a man's job you give him some compensation for it. It seems to me that that compensation ought to be given to these men, whether they have done this collecting work full time on behalf of one single hospital or whether, for reasons of economy and so forth, hospitals have grouped together and they have done it
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for the group of hospitals. There does not seem to me to be that distinction which should rule out one class of person from this compensation which the Government are quite willing to give to the other class. That seems to me to be the whole point of this Amendment.
I suppose the Amendment raises a question of Privilege. Other noble Lords will know more about that than I do, but I assume it will put an increased charge upon the Treasury. It is therefore an Amendment about which this House has to be careful. It is, however, a case where I think the Government can come forward and see that justice is done, not to a whole body of people who do not deserve it but to people who have been full time in this work and who will be losing their employment because of this Bill. For those reasons I wish to give support to the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): As the noble. Lord who has just spoken has said, this is, of course, a Privilege Amendment, not that that in any way precludes this House from acting. It is, however, a matter in regard to which this House always thinks twice before it does act. I think there is some slight misapprehension about this Amendment. It has been discussed as though the issue were that a man serving one hospital got compensation and a man serving four hospitals did not get compensation. That is not so. Under the Interpretation Act the singular includes the plural. Wherever you get the word "hospital" you may read, according to the Interpretation Act, "or hospitals."
The real point underlying this Amendment, if I may venture to say so, is not that at all; it is whether you should extend the power of transfer and compensation to persons who are not the servants or officers of any hospital at all. That is the real point. You have these voluntary associations and the problem is: ought you to extend to the officers of those associations, which are not hospitals, the same concessions and privileges as you extend to the officers of hospitals? We say you should not, and I think I can give your Lordships cogent reasons why you should not. In the first place, see how different are the two positions. The associations who have funds do not lose any of their funds. The hospitals do; the associations

623
do not. Secondly, the associations, unlike the hospitals, do not in practice devote their money exclusively to hospitals; in fact they devote their money to various other schemes as well—schemes such as home nursing, ambulance services, convalescent homes, the supply of spectacles and all sorts of beneficial and useful purposes of that sort. They are not in any way limited to supporting hospitals. Further, a meeting of one of these associations in recent months adopted a report, if what I read in the Press was right, suggesting that they would continue to provide services supplementary to those provided under the new scheme. I have already used the word "trimmings," which I am afraid got me into some trouble—and it was an unfortunate word—but I would like to say that even after this scheme comes into operation there will be a very great need for these additional services to go on, and I sincerely hope they will. It will make all the difference if they do.
Therefore, I have got here an association, which does not lose its funds, which does not contemplate extinction and which is not going to be transferred to anybody. The problem is whether the servants of such an association as that—an association not being taken over—are to be placed in the same category as the servants of a hospital which is being taken over. We say they should not be. We say that the only principle upon which you can decide this matter is this. You must confine your compensation to those who are directly affected by the transfer and you cannot grant it to those who are indirectly affected, because once you attempt to grant compensation to those who are indirectly affected you may have to grant compensation to the employees of a business which, as things are to-day, supplies a hospital with all sorts of commodities and which, in days to come when there is some kind of central purchase, will not supply anything at all and which may have to discharge some of its employees. That is another illustration of an indirect loss.
What the Minister has said, and what I repeat, is this. He realizes there may in some exceptional cases be hardship and he has said that he will extend to those people the benefits of some priority in employment in those many spheres of activity which, either under this scheme
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or under the other scheme—the insurance scheme—will be available for people trained in this sort of work. But I think it would be—and I am really talking on the two Amendments, this and the succeeding one, rather than on this one, because this one does not matter a bit—a bad example to extend compensation to persons who are not servants of hospitals, who are not directly affected by any transfer but only indirectly affected and who, in view of the fact that the work of the Association is going on and that it will not suffer any diminution of its funds, should not be entitled to draw compensation as they would be if they were the direct servants of either one or more hospitals, who, of course, will be transferred to the Minster. Therefore I regret to say we really do not think it right—and this was gone into very carefully in another place—to extend the benefit of compensation to those persons who are only indirectly affected.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: May I ask the noble and learned Viscount a question? On what grounds does he say these associations will suffer no diminution of their funds?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is no transfer of their funds under this Bill. There may, of course, be a diminution if the subscriptions fall off, but I have already said that I very much hope subscriptions on a substantial scale will continue.
LORD LUKE: The subscriptions are likely to fall off as a result not only of this scheme but of the other scheme contained in the National Insurance Act. These officers of the contributory schemes will be affected very greatly and will be out of employment. I had not intended to speak on this particular Amendment, but as the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, has, as it were, taken them both together, perhaps I may now say a few words on them. The object, of course, is compensation. I would point out that these schemes are an integral part of the voluntary hospital system and that if the voluntary hospital system goes, these schemes will also go. There are a great number of very worthy people involved who will lose their employment, not only through the operation of this Act, when it becomes an Act, but through the operation of the National Insurance Act. I consider that it is unreasonable to leave them out when the

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employees of hospitals are catered for. Of course, I know there is the argument that there is no knowing where this may end, but if a line is to be drawn, then I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, that it should be drawn below these people and not above them.
I think I am right in saying that in another place the Minister expressed rather more sympathy than the noble and learned Viscount did just now. He said that every effort would be made by the Minister and by the Minister of National Insurance to absorb these people into the new services, but surely that does not go very far. There will be some of them who will not be so absorbed and surely it is only common justice that those who are not absorbed should be compensated. These contributory schemes have been administered very ably and have been of immense benefit to contributors up and down the country and to the hospitals; they have looked after their contributors. I consider that they deserve better treatment at the hands of the Government than they are getting in the Bill as it now stands.
LORD COZENS-HARDY: I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord Chancellor has not felt able to go further in regard to this and to give a definite right of compensation to the class of officer I have referred to. If the scheme should, as is very unlikely to my mind, continue in the way in which the noble and learned Viscount has mentioned, then there would be no case for compensation at all; they would still he employed. I regret that the Government have not felt able to go further and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LUKE LORD LUKE moved, in subsection (1) (e), to insert:
"(iii) devoted the whole of their time to the governing body of a contributory scheme serving a group of hospitals for the purposes of functions which cease in consequence of the Act."
The noble Lord said: On behalf of the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Sheffield, who is unable to be here because he is in Germany, I beg leave to move this Amendment. Having made my remarks on the other Amendment, I will say nothing further. I formally move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 31, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Luke.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I made my remarks also on the other Amendment, and I do not propose to say anything further.
LORD LUKE: In view of those remarks, and in view of the discussion that we have just had, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 67 agreed to.
Clauses 68 to 71 agreed to.
5.10 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved, after Clause 71, to insert the following new clause:
"Notwithstanding any privilege, custom or rule of law the Minister and any council, board, committee or other authority constituted under this Act and their officers shall be compellable to produce in any action brought by any person or by the personal representatives of any deceased person against the Minister or such council, board, committee or other authority or officers, all such records, communications, memoranda and other documents as relate to such person or such deceased person or to the treatment or ser vices provided in respect of them."
The noble Lord said: This, in my view, is an important Amendment. By this Bill, we are vesting the whole of the hospitals in the Minister; they are henceforth going to be Crown property. From that it follows, as I understand the law, that the Minister, or any of the officers acting under the Minister, will be able in respect of them to claim the privileges and prerogatives of the Crown. I have looked at Clause 13 of this Bill, and that clause, it is quite true, makes the Regional Board, or the board of governors of the teaching hospital, the body who will be liable in respect of any liabilities, notwithstanding that they are exercising functions on be half of the Minister. Therefore, if a patient or anybody else has a cause of action against the hospital itself, then the Regional Board or the board of governors are made a party to the case. So far as that is concerned, I am correct, because the words of Clause 13 are Quite explicit—that despite the fact that they are exercising powers on behalf of the Minister they shall be liable as though they were acting as principals. I think that completely covers that point, but I do not

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think it covers the point with which my Amendment itself deals, and that is why I put it down.
My Amendment reads as follows:
"Not withstanding any privilege, custom or rule of law the Minister and any council, board, committee or other authority constituted under this Act and their officers shall be compellable to produce in any action brought by any person or by the personal representatives of any deceased person against the Minister or such council, board, committee or other authority or officers, all such records, communications, memoranda and other documents"—
I believe I thought to have added here the words "in their possession, custody or power," which are the normal words—
"as relate to such person or such deceased person or to the treatment or services pro vided in respect of them."
I do not believe that is covered by Clause 13 as drafted. I assume a case where a patient thinks there has been negligence on the part of a doctor and sues the doctor for negligence. I am one of the people who want to see that the patient has just as much chance in that action as he would have had had the hospital not been taken over by the Minister. I think that will be the view on all sides of the House.
I believe that if we do not have some such words, whether in a new clause or as additional words to Clause 13, when an action of that sort is brought it may be found that the hospital cannot be compelled to produce the records and memoranda relevant in the case. I ask only for the ones which relate to such persons or deceased persons or to their treatment, such as are produced in a normal action for negligence—the case record book and other records which are kept by the hospital and which are vital to the case being properly tried. I believe this is not covered by Clause 13. I am not seeking, of course, to go inside Ministries or do anything of that kind. All I am seeking is the production of the kind of document which the court could have compelled a hospital to produce, and which I think they should still produce although they may be part of the Ministry's hospital records. I think that is a point on which we shall all be completely agreed.
Between us we should make quite certain that some words—I do not say particularly mine—are included to safeguard
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patients who may have suffered from the negligence of some servant of the hospital. If there is a gap, I think it is a gap which we should all wish to bridge, and I believe nobody is keener than the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, to see that in cases against the Crown there is much more facility for the subject than there has been in the past. He has adumbrated to us that he hopes to bring in a measure, but I think we ought not to wait for that; we ought to put words into this Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 9, at end insert the said new clause.—(Lord Llewellin.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: The object of this Amendment is merely to secure that a plaintiff against one of the per sons mentioned in the Amendment shall have full discovery in an action or a proceeding against any one of these numerous bodies or persons who, as he imagines, has treated him wrongly in some way, so that he is entitled to legal redress. I am very unwilling to express an exact or reasoned opinion as to the effect of this clause and its necessity, but I think I am reasonably clear that it is very desirable to remove doubts in respect of the rights of the supposed plain tiff in one of the categories mentioned in the clause. Having regard to the curious nature of the position which the patient may occupy when this Bill has become law, the question as to precisely who is liable in a particular case, and the question of the nature of the discovery to which he is entitled, it would be just and reasonable that the Government—who have told us that their desire is that even after this Bill there should be justice—should consent to this clause or some modification of it, if necessary, being inserted in the Bill. Having said that, I will repeat that I think the clause is desirable, but at the same time I am not pledging myself to the extent to which it is strictly necessary.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This subject is one which I confess is rather near my heart. I entirely agree with the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment. I think it is very desirable that in proceedings against the Crown the litigant should have a very full measure of discovery, and I am inclined to think that there have been cases in the past

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where the litigant has not had such a generous measure of discovery as he should have had. I frankly hope that I shall live to be able to introduce the Civil Proceedings against the Crown Bill, and that I shall be able to give a very wide right of discovery when that Bill is introduced. Having said that, I must also say that I think we should realize at the same time that there is this to be considered. You may here get a conflict of private interest with the public interest. I think it is of the utmost importance that those who are concerning themselves with Government business, with public affairs, should have the right to communicate with each other on those affairs, in the ordinary course of events, freely and without fearing that the reports which they make to their superiors may be dragged out and examined in a Court of Law. I am sure the noble Lord opposite will agree with me about that.
I think that this is a matter of public interest. Only the other day I happened to have to consider a point with regard to reports in connexion with the Air Ministry. There was litigation between two individuals and one of them, quite properly, had certain of these reports in his possession. I had to consider whether we should or should not claim privilege for those reports. I advised the Minister as to what sort of principles he ought to apply, principles laid down judicially by the House of Lords, in quite recent times, in a judgment given by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simon. One wants to be very careful to balance these two points of view. This actual Amendment as it stands would not do. As drafted, it is so wide that it is in no sense limited to the purposes of this Bill. It would apply to any action brought against the Minister under a Housing Act or almost any sort of procedure. I am very willing to listen to, and to consider, arguments which may be put forward upon this matter. But really I venture to think that there is no danger of any trouble of the sort that seems to be feared occurring under this Bill as drafted.
There are four points in connexion with which a person who brings an action against the Crown may find himself in difficulty. First, instead of issuing a writ in the ordinary way he may find himself obliged to resort to a certain rather obscure form of proceedings. Second, he
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may find himself in difficulty because there is no action for tort against the Crown. Third, there is the difficulty about discovery. With regard to these three points I would ask the noble Lord to look at Clause 13, and to realize that the party who is responsible here as the employer of these various officers is the Regional Hospital Board. I do not think that there would be any difficulty in the ordinary way in bringing your action for tort against the Regional Hospital Board, and getting discovery from the Board. I think that the difficulty does arise, and always must arise, under what I now enumerate as my fourth head—the Crown's power to claim privilege for documents which are properly certified as documents which cannot be produced without detriment to the public interest. I think that is the only point upon which difficulty arises, and I consider that the Crown ought to retain that power.
I think that this is one of the matters which a Minister ought to look into himself. He ought to instruct his mind as to what the point is and see whether he is satisfied that it is against public interest that these documents should be produced either by reason of something which they contain, or owing to the fact that they may be documents of the class which ought not to be introduced because if they did come to be disclosed they would tend to prevent that free expression of opinion which is necessary in the public interest. That is my view. There was a well-known case against the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. They had in their possession some document which came from the Admiralty in which opinions were expressed as to the state of affairs in Persia. Now, although the litigation was between two private individuals—the company and somebody else—they were ordered by the Admiralty not to disclose that document, because the Admiralty took the view that its disclosure would be against the public interest.
This particular topic being the topic of health and of actions being brought against doctors and that sort of thing, may I say that I do not think that that sort of consideration is likely to arise. I think it is almost inconceivable that there would be any document of that kind which by it very nature it would be against the public interest to disclose. I think that there might be documents in

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the second category, documents belonging to the class which in the wider public interest ought not to be disclosed because it would tend to prevent people communicating freely and expressing opinions. I think that, in that connexion, it is right that the Crown should still have the right to claim privilege. I am very ready to do what I can if the noble Lord thinks that there is a special case and will tell me whether there is something I can do which, while safeguarding that broad general principle, will secure that in actions of this special character, confined to this Bill, there shall be as complete a measure of disclosure as possible. I shall be pleased to meet him, as I say, but I do feel that until I deal with this matter in a General Act—we shall of course have to review the whole subject when we come to the Bill to which I have referred—this right ought to be retained.
I say this whilst having sympathy with the noble Lord's object, while feeling it right that a man who is going to bring an action against a hospital after the appointed day, when it has been transferred, shall be in no worse position than a man who brings an action today before the hospital has been transferred. If it is suggested to me that there is some simple Amendment which I can make, I shall be glad to do so. On the other hand this Amendment is too wide. I feel that in the public interest I must retain that right which I have indicated.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am sorry but I am not really satisfied with the noble and learned Lord's answer. I quite agree with him on the matter of the broad policy, but I am only dealing with a very small matter. If he will look at my Amendment, he will see that it is not very wide. It runs:
"Notwithstanding any privilege, custom or rule of law the Minister and any council, board, committee or other authority constituted under this Act and their officers shall be compelled to produce in any action brought by any person or by the personal representatives of any deceased person against the Minister or such council, boar committee or other authority or officers, all such records, communications, memoranda and other documents as relate to such person or such deceased person or to the treatment or services provided in respect of them."
You will see that it is limited to "all such records" and so on. I want to add "in
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their possession, custody or power" and then go on "as relate to such person" and so on. It is limited only to the documents that arise in respect of one particular patient. It is very narrow if you look at the last part of it. I am certain that this is not covered by Clause 13.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Supposing that a document relating to some particular person was a report by one of the officials of the Ministry of Health to the Minister, made in the course of his duty. The noble Lord's Amendment would say that as a matter of course that must be produced. I would say that this is a matter where the Minister ought to consider whether the public interest demands that that type of document should be produced.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I do not think that that is satisfactory from the point of view of the patient. I would not be prepared to leave it that this should be a matter for the exercise of the general discretion given to the Minister. If you say a report made ad hoc after a case has been made to the Minister, we accept that. Perhaps he sent an inspector to a hospital where there has been a death. I am not suggesting a post-mortem document, which is perhaps much the same as a solicitor gets, but I am suggesting that we are not safe in leaving the right of a patient to be subject to the discretion of somebody who may say: "In this case we do not think that we will disclose the medical history sheets. They are, normally, to be kept in the hospital." It may well be that there is an action against a very popular surgeon, and the attitude taken may be: "Let us not disclose that document; it does not read too well," or something like that. That kind of thing is wrong and I am not prepared to leave the position like that. If the noble and learned Lord is prepared so to strengthen Clause 13 that the old rights of the Act not the new rights of a man from the Ministry, are upheld, that the documents that are properly there, and were there before the passing of this Act, shall still he held to be produced as be fore, he will meet my point. We consider this extremely important.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I thought that I had said that. I regard it as quite certain that that sort of medical history sheet can be, and must be, produced

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after this Bill is passed. If an action is brought against a Regional Hospital Board, the history sheet would be one of their documents. As a litigant, the Board would have to produce it. I am unwilling, however, to use words to cover the exceptional instance which I quoted. If the sort of case which the noble Lord has in mind is not covered—I believe it is—then I will gladly see that it is.
LORD LLEWELLIN: With great respect, take rather a different view. The clause only says that the Board shall be liable as though they were principals and that all proceedings for the enforcement of such rights or liabilities shall be brought by or against the Board in their own name. I do not think that this enforcement of a right or liability does include the disclosure of documents. And that is the only way my point would be covered. I want words put in, whatever the appropriate words are, which would mean that these documents which had previously always been compellable out of the hospital authorities shall still be compellable. I do not want it to extend to the doctor making a confidential report to the Minister. That will probably have nothing to do with the death of the patient, or the injury that the patient suffers. It may be a report on his death afterwards. I want the history, to see whether there has been negligence in the treatment of the patient, and whether an action lies against the Hospital Board or the surgeon or any other officer of the Board. I think that the noble and learned Lord wants to meet me, if he can.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will gladly meet the noble Lord. If these provisions are not already here, I will put them there. The only reason I he state is that I think they are there now, and that nothing further is needed.
VISCOUNT SIMON: Would the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, look into that a little further, and possibly consult with my noble friend and any other noble Lord whom he desires? The feeling that the patient should be fully protected in this matter is universal. I know, and the noble and learned Lord knows, that there are cases—border-line cases—in which official documents ought not, on genuine public grounds, to be produced.
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I will quote an instance, which is different from the one he has given. In the Army it is the invariable practice that a Commanding Officer annually makes a report in respect of junior officers in his battalion. I well remember taking the view that such a document ought not to be produced, on the ground that you could not expect a Commanding Officer to give an absolutely candid account of the shortcomings of Captain "So-and-so," if there were a prospect of a libel action by Captain "So-and-so" if the document were produced. I took that view, and it was adopted by the Courts; it is plain common sense.
But, in my humble opinion, there is no ground on earth to justify the Minister saying: "You had better claim privilege for that document, because if it is produced it will be rather unpleasant for you or for the Department. It will be much safer if it is kept out." That would be utterly wrong. I know that a great deal of trouble is taken in these cases to see that the Minister is properly advised, but I think that the point made by my noble friend is one of great public importance. The change in these organizations connected with hospitals should not result, almost by a side wind, in the man who believes that he has been aggrieved, and is perhaps harmed for life, losing what he is undoubtedly entitled to, full proof of what happened. Could not my noble and learned friend's ingenuity devise something to make that clear beyond doubt? In a concluding sentence perhaps I may be allowed to say that I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, talked about the possibility of introducing the Civil Procedure Bill "some day." A good many people want it rather more urgently and definitely than that.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am amongst them.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I think we all agree. For myself, however, I am quite convinced that this position is not covered by Clause 13. If I am wrong I should like to be shown where it is covered. I understand from the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, that he will look into the matter, and that if he finds that it is covered, he will show me where. If not, we may try to speak together, and to find words that will cover it beyond

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a shadow of doubt. On that understanding, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 72 and 73 agreed.
Clause 74:
Regulations.
74.—(1) No regulations shall be made under Section sixty-six or Section sixty-seven of this Act unless a draft of the regulations has been laid before Parliament and has been approved by Resolution of each House of Parliament.
5.38 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (1), after "under," to insert "subsection (1) of Section eleven of this Act such as determine the areas for which the Regional Hospital Boards are to be constituted, or".
The noble Earl said: I apologize for referring again to this question of the setting up of the Regional Boards. This Amendment and the next in my name seek to enable Parliament to approve the regulations setting up the Regional Boards by affirmative Resolution and not by negative. These Regional Boards, to which I attach so much importance, must be the basis of the whole future administration of the hospitals. At the present time, we do not know, and the noble and learned Lord says that he is unable to tell us, the type or size of the regions, or the number of people who will be living there. All we know about the regions is that they will each be attached to one of the university medical schools in the country. There are eleven of these schools, and it appears that many of the Regional Boards will be attached to the university schools. It is for that reason that we attach such importance to these Boards. I think we should be enabled to see them brought into operation by an affirmative Resolution.
There is one further point. We can be pretty certain that there will be only one set of these regulations which will come before Parliament, except when the Minister decides to amend them in any particular manner. It is important that Parliament should have the right to discuss these things fully, rather than that a prayer should be made in another place at a very late hour of the night when the matter will be inadequately discussed. It is for that reason that I beg to move this Amendment which I hope will appeal to the Lord Chancellor.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 30, after ("under") insert ("subsection (1) of Section eleven of this Act such as determine the areas for which the Regional Hospital Boards are to be constituted, or").—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think I can satisfy the noble Earl when I tell him that the regulations about the Regions will be made separately. That being so, it really does not matter whether the Resolution is positive or negative. I think as a matter of general principle the negative procedure is right in this sort of case. I follow what the noble Earl says, that if it is embedded in a mass of other stuff it is difficult to get proper discussion. But it will not be. We shall have separate regulations dealing with this matter and that being so I think it better to adhere to the normal procedure of dealing with it by a negative Resolution.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I quite agree. On general questions I do not attach much importance to the difference between a negative and an affirmative Resolution. The only reason in respect of which I attached importance to this matter was that these Regional Boards are going to be the whole basis of the administration of the hospitals. They are really of vital importance. Naturally, in view of what the Lord Chancellor has said I shall not press this Amendment, but I hope that between now and the next stage of the Bill he may again consider this point. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.44 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in subsection (1), after "under" to insert "subsection (7) of Section forty-two." The noble Lord said: This is rather a similar point in that it seeks to call for an affirmative Resolution and not a negative one. This concerns the provision of Clause 42 which we were discussing yesterday, and the regulations about which the noble and learned Lord and myself were going to have a talk. It is important that we should see how this Tribunal is going to act, and it is very important for the people whose whole livelihood may depend on how it is going to act. We should carefully scrutinize these regulations when they come to be made. I must admit it makes not a great deal of difference in this House whether an affirmative or a negative Resolution is

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needed because there is always ample time for us to put down a Motion negativing a regulation and have it called on at a quite reasonable hour. Were I still ill another place I should find some considerable inconvenience in the negative debate coming on at a very late hour—usually at night. In this House, of course, it does not really make a great deal of difference, except that when you are including some things which need an affirmative Resolution, surely one of them is the working of this Tribunal on which the whole livelihood of some of these medical practitioners will ultimately depend. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 30, after ("under") insert ("subsection"(7) of Section forty-two").—(Lord Llewellin.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is really the sort of point about which we used to get very excited in another place. It does not matter very much here. I think the general principle in deciding whether a Resolution should be positive or negative is the one with which I have already dealt, and that is this. If it deals with matters of substance, especially one affecting some change in a Statute or something of that sort, I take the view that it ought to fall on to the positive side of the line. But if the matter is procedural I think the Resolution ought to fall on to the negative side of the line. That is a very rough division, however, and may not be final. Although this is important, it is essentially a matter of procedure. That being so, I should say that I think it properly falls on to the negative side. It would be a bad example if we started putting procedural regulations on to the positive side of the line.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I put this down before we had our discussion yesterday. I put it down because in the medical profession there is considerable apprehension as to the procedure under Clause 42 which we were discussing and I thought we might get some Amendments on that. In view of the noble and learned Lord's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 74 agreed to.
5.7 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved to insert as a new clause:
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"It is hereby declared that no provision of this Act conferring any power or imposing any duty upon a Region-al Hospital Board, a board of governors of a teaching hospital or an executive council, authorizes the disregard by any of those bodies of any enactment or rule of law."
The noble Lord said: This is a matter that concerns local authorities, both those municipal councils and the county councils on whose behalf Lord Henley put it down. It again concerns quite ordinary contingencies. For instance, if the chimney stack attached to the boiler house of a hospital emits smoke and creates a nuisance, surely it is not reasonable that the Regional Hospital Board should be immune from the ordinary procedure regarding nuisances of this nature? Or if the vehicles that are owned by the Regional Board are found on the road to be in an unworthy condition, and so constitute an offence against the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, surely it is undesirable that the Board should be above the procedure of the ordinary law? For example, if the Board wishes to lay a pipe across the highway, is it again not liable in the ordinary way to comply with the procedure of the highway authorities? I think this clause is one which follows a similar one in the Civil Aviation Bill, and I hope that the noble Lord will be able to include it in this Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 15, at end insert the said new clause.—(Lord Addington.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: In my view this new clause is wholly unnecessary, because—and this may be some consolation to the noble Lord—as I see it, beyond any argument, if a Regional Hospital Board has a smoking chimney, or if it puts on the road some improperly-constructed vehicle, then by reason of the provisions in Clause 13 it is quite plainly liable in tort in the ordinary way, and would certainly be liable for any criminal offence. That being so, I do assure the noble Lord that this clause is really wholly unnecessary and I do not very much like putting this sort of clause into a Bill if it is unnecessary.
LORD ADDINGTON: If I have the assurance that it is covered in Clause 13, I withdraw the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 75 to 77 agreed to.
Clause 78 [Interpretation]:
5.49 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to insert in subsection (1):
"'dispensing optician' means a person having the prescribed qualifications for the fitting and supply of optical appliances."
The noble Lord said: This is consequential upon the Amendment your Lordships have already accepted in Clause 41. It is a question of definition. It defines a "dispensing optician." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 60, line 5, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The next Amendment is consequential to an Amendment in Clause 41. It defines an "ophthalmic optician."
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 13, at end insert—
("'ophthalmic optician' means a person having the prescribed qualifications in optics, including the measurement of errors of refraction, in orthoptics and in the fitting and supply of optical appliances.")—(The Earl of Listowel.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: Before this is put may I make a suggestion to the Gov ernment—it is only a suggestion, and there is no Amendment down with regard to it. It is that the word "specialist" should also be defined. It occurs constantly in the Bill, and it will often be necessary to know whether a man is a specialist or not. I am a little uneasy on that point because I have known, more than once in my life, of general practitioners who have started as general practitioners and who have gradually become well known as skilled in particular operations or in particular branches of the medical profession, and have ultimately become specialists. But there is a period of seven years or more during which they are both general practitioners and specialists. I would suggest that in order to avoid that state of affairs there should be some definition which makes it reasonably clear that it is only if they do not undertake ordinary general practitioner's work that they are to be treated as specialists. However, that is only for
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consideration. I do not know what my noble friend, Lord Horder, would say as to the meaning of the word.
LORD MORAN: I think it would be very difficult indeed to define "specialist" There is not a definition. I am sure that what the noble Lord suggested would not be practicable, because it is certain that as there are only about half the specialist consultants we need for this purpose, there will be a long interim period—it may be ten years—during which a man will be both general practitioner and consultant. It has been suggested there should be a register of medical consultants. The General Medical Council went very closely into it, but I do not think it is likely to be pressed, because I consider it to be impracticable.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 78, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
First Schedule:

CENTRAL COUNCIL AND ADVISORY COMMITTEES.
Constitution of Central Council.
1. The number of members of the Central Council shall be forty-one of whom six shall be persons for the time being holding the offices of the President of the Royal College of Physicians of London, the President of the Royal College of Surgeons of England, the President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Chairman of the Council of the British Medical Association, the President of the General Medical Council and the Chairman of the Council of the Society of Medical Officers of Health, respectively; and of the remaining thirty-five members, who shall be appointed by the Minister,—
5.52 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, in paragraph 1, to leave out "forty-one of whom six shall be the persons for the time being holding the offices of the" and insert "forty-two, of whom seven shall be persons for the time being holding the offices of the Chairman of the Council of the Association of Municipal Corporations, the". The noble Lord said: This is an attempt to provide that there should be direct representation of the local health authorities on the Central Council. These authorities have a place and a responsibility in the affairs of the Council which seem to justify my submission for ex officio representation no less than that

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which has been given to some of the other bodies mentioned in the paragraph. While the Society of Medical Officers of Health have ex officio representation it is some what anomalous that the bodies whom there serve, and to whom they are responsible for carrying out their duties, have not been accorded the same privilege. If there is a case for giving ex officio representation to the societies mentioned in the paragraph, there is no less a case for the inclusion of the local health authorities. I have referred only to the municipal corporations in this Amendment, but if it would be acceptable I should be quite ready, after consultation, to add county councils and other bodies concerned.
Amendment moved—
Page 63, line 5, leave out from ("be") to ("President") in line 7, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Addington.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am sure the noble Lord will agree that the local health authorities are going to be directly represented on the Minister's Central Council. In the First Schedule, to which he moves this Amendment, subsection (c) of paragraph 1 reads:
"five shall be persons not being medical practitioners with experience in local government."
What the noble Lord is proposing in his Amendment is to include among the ex officio members of the Central Health Service Council the Chairman of the Council of the Association of Municipal Corporations.
LORD ADDINGTON: That is the point of my Amendment.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Let me, if I may, put this point in reply. No doubt the Chairman of the Council of the Association of Municipal Corporations would be an eminently appropriate member of the Council. There is no question of that at all, and of course he would attend as representative of those whose experience is based on local government mentioned in paragraph 1 (a) of the Schedule but surely he should be included among the five members to whom I have already alluded, and not as an additional ex officio member. I really think there are strong objections to adding to the representation of the local authorities in this way. In the first place, your Lordships will have noticed the Central Council is to be regarded primarily as an expert professional
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group of advisers representative of doctors, dentists, nurses, etc. In the second place, I think your Lordships will agree that any alteration in the composition of the Central Council will upset a very carefully balanced body in which all the different elements have been designed in relation to the bodies they represent. Finally, it seems perfectly clear, and in deed the noble Lord in his speech suggested it, that alterations in one direction can only lead to a demand for alterations in another. That, of course, would still further upset the balance and increase the size of a body which I think is about right at the moment. I very much hope that the presence of this eminent gentleman in local government may be secured in the way that I have suggested.
LORD ADDINGTON: I understand there is a possibility that this gentleman and the most responsible people in local authorities will be among those chosen. I am willing to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.58 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON LORD WOLVERTON moved, in paragraph 1, to substitute "forty-two" for "forty-one" The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Teviot who cannot be here, I beg to move this Amendment. If I may, I would like to move his Amendments as one because if this is not accepted it does not mean we do not need the others. The object of the Amendment is to secure representation of the dental profession on the Central Council of the Minister. We think it is very necessary that the Chairman of the Dental Board should be a member of that Central Council. The noble and learned Lord Chancellor in an admirable speech in the Second Reading debate pointed out that Clause 1 states:
"It shall be the duty of the Minister of Health … to promote the establishment in England and Wales of a comprehensive health service designed to secure improvement in the physical and mental health of the people of England and Wales and the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness, and for that purpose to provide or secure the effective provision of services in accordance with the following provisions of this Act.
We all agree with that. When it was discussed in another place the Minister, in Standing Committee on the nineteenth day of proceedings, said: "I earnestly hope in this Committee there will be no auctioning of seats in this Council." We

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do not think on this side of the House that it is asking for the auctioning of seats if you have got the President of the College of Physicians, the President of the Royal College of Surgeons of England, and the Chairman of the Council of the British Medical Association, and we do think it is a very important thing that the President of the Dental Board who, after all, is a very important man, should be on this Council. The teeth of this nation are not nearly as good as they should be. I think it is admitted they are not as good as in the United States. If we want to improve them it is important the Dental Board should be allowed to have direct representation on this Central Council of the Minister. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 63, line 5, leave out ("forty-one") and insert ("forty-two").—(Lord Wolver ton.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I think it is perfectly simple to satisfy the desire of the noble Lord opposite that the Chairman of the Dental Board should be one of the representatives of the dental profession on the Central Council. The noble Lord will have observed that among those who will be appointed to sit by the people whom they represent on the Central Council will be three dental practitioners. That is sub-paragraph (d) of paragraph 1 of the First Schedule. It will be quite open to the Chairman of the Dental Board to be included in that way if he and his colleagues so desire. What the noble Lord wants in his Amendment is to add three more dental representatives to the Central Council. However, as I have already said, the constitution of the Council has been carefully worked out so as to provide adequate representation of all the interests that should sit there, and also so as to give a majority of medical members.
LORD WOLVERTON: I would like to say one thing. There is a misprint in the paper. It says: "Page 63, line 5, leave out 'forty-one,' and insert 'forty-four'." That should be "insert 'forty-two')." Has that been rectified?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I have not got it.
LORD WOLVERTON: It is a misprint. That should be "forty-two." We want to add one more.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I see what the noble Lord wants. He only wants to increase the representation of the dentists by one and not three.
LORD WOLVERTON: Yes.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I will gladly discuss it on that basis. If, as the noble Lord desires, the Chairman of the Dental Board were added in addition to the representation already provided for in the Schedule the medical proportion would certainly expect to have an additional member to swell their representation. I am afraid it is quite impossible, as has already been shown by the terms of the noble Lord, Lord Addington's Amendment, to satisfy everyone's desire for what they consider to be adequate representation without making the Council much too unwieldy a body. However, I hope this may be some consolation to the noble Lord, and to the noble Lord, Lord Teviot. It is the Minister's intention to have a standing advisory committee on dentistry to be constituted under Clause 2, subsection (3) of the Bill. On this Committee, of course, dentists will be fully represented, and the Chairman of the Dental Board could also be a member of the committee if he and his colleagues so desire. I can assure the noble Lord—and I think this was a point which the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, had in mind, although it was not mentioned by the noble Lord opposite—that of the three dental practitioners to be appointed to the Central Council under the Schedule one will be a dentist of the 1921 class, if that is in accordance with the views of his professional colleagues. The noble Lord has put these Amendments together—I am very glad he did so—and he will have noticed that one of the objects of the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, was to get a dentist of this class included in the representation.
LORD WOLVERTON: I understand that.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I fully agree with the noble Earl that the Central Council should be a very carefully balanced body, but when all is said and done the dentists are a very important element in the whole of the medical life of this country. I should have thought myself that after having included the president and the chairman of the six principal associations in this country, in

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view of the work that dentists are going to be called upon to undertake under this Act, it might have been possible for the Minister in the first place to include the Chairman of the Dental Board. I think it is a great pity that the dentists should be in a small minority on the central Council. There is a great demand for more dentists, as the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, has pointed out on previous occasions during our discussions on this Bill, and I think it is a mistake to exclude the Chairman of the Dental Board from this central council.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: He will not be excluded.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: He is not on it.
LORD WOLVERTON: I must say I am not at all satisfied. I am moving this Amendment on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, and I do not know what he would have done in the circumstances. I do not know whether the Minister can give me any assurance that he will look into it between now and the next stage, but if not I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule agreed to.
Third Schedule:
REGIONAL HOSPITAL BOARDS, HOSPITAL MANAGEMENT COMMITTEES AND BOARDS OF GOVERNORS OF TEACHING HOSPITALS.

PART I.
Constitution of Regional Hospital Boards.
A Regional Hospital Board shall consist of a chairman appointed by the Minister and such other members so appointed as the Minister thinks fit, and the members shall include—
(c) persons appointed after consultation with the local health authorities in the said area; and
(d) persons appointed after consultation with such other organizations as appear to the Minister to be concerned;
and the original members of the Board shall also include persons appointed after consultation with such organizations as the Minister may recognize as representative of voluntary hospitals in the said area.
At least two of the members of the Board shall be persons with experience in mental health services.

PART II.
Constitution of Hospital Management Committees.
A Hospital Management Committee shall consist of a chairman appointed by the Regional Hospital Board for the area in which the hospital or group of hospitals is situated and such other members so appointed as the Board thinks fit, and the members shall include—
(a) persons appointed after consultation with any local health authority whose area comprises the area or any part of the area served by the hospital or group;
(c) persons appointed after consultation with the senior medical and dental staff employed at the hospital or the hospitals of the group, as the case may be; and

PART III.
Constitution of Boards of Governors of teaching hospitals.
The Board of Governors of a teaching hospital shall consist of a chairman appointed by the Minister and such number of other members so appointed as the Minister thinks fit, and if those members—

(a) not more than one-fifth shall be nominated by the university with which the hospital is associated;

(b) not more than one-fifth shall be nominated by the Regional Hospital Board for the area in which the hospital is situated;

(c) not more than one-fifth shall be nominated by the medical and dental teaching staff of the hospital; and

(d) other persons shall be appointed after consultation with such local health authorities and other organizations as appear to the Minister to be concerned, including, in the case of the original members of the Board of Governors of a teaching hospital designated before the appointed day, the governing body of any voluntary hospital comprised or to be comprised in the teaching hospital.

LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, in Part I, to leave out "and such other members so appointed" and insert "members appointed by local authorities as herein after provided and such other members appointed by the Minister." The noble Lord said: This is one of a series of Amendments. It is designed to provide that local health authorities should have a power of direct nomination to the Regional Hospital Boards, and to certain others set out in the Bill. One representative for each local authority would be unfair representation as between the authorities themselves, or impracticable owing to the numbers involved to select from the

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nominated persons those who are to represent the authorities on those Regional Boards. The difference between this proposal and that of the Bill is this. Under the Bill the Minister would presumably invite local authorities to submit the names of suitable representatives. He can appoint few of all such persons, and he may choose to go outside the ranks of those persons altogether. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Horder, on the Second Reading of this Bill an interesting but somewhat disquieting account of the way in which the present Minister conducts consultations. We cannot, therefore, rely altogether on that leading to members whom the local authorities want being upon the very important bodies.
Under this proposal the Minister must choose from the persons nominated by the local health authorities, but he is nevertheless free to refuse a nomination, in which case a further name would be submitted. The practice of appointment by the Minister on the nomination of interested bodies is already in this Bill, and is already accepted in the case of boards of governors in this Schedule, and in the case of executive councils under Schedule 5, where the eight members are directly nominated by the local authorities concerned. The plea for direct representation can be pressed, I think, owing to the fact that these elected representatives of the local authorities will be really the only representatives of the public and those who use the hospitals themselves. They would, therefore, be the main representatives of the consumer interest. So that in a particular locality those who are concerned with the provision of the hospital accommodation, or who want some further provision, can raise the point at the local elections and see that their representatives are thoroughly well informed as to the position of those who are appointed to these boards and to these other bodies. It is therefore suggested that, having regard to the experience of the local health authorities in hospital administration, they should be very strongly represented on these Regional Boards. These Boards are completely new bodies, and the Schedule gives no indication of the number they should contain. It is suggested that it would be very reasonable if the local authorities had at least one-third of the full number. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 29, leave out ("and such other members so appointed") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Addington.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord has conveniently discussed this matter rather widely, and I am grateful to him for having done so. The broad issue here is how these people should be appointed. Should you have persons selected by the Minister after consultation with persons skilled in local government; should you have persons nominated by the local government organs; or should you have a kind of half-way house where the Minister selects from a panel so nominated? As a result, I am sorry to say, of a good deal of experience of this matter I have definitely come to the conclusion that where you have anything like a joint board on which there are people nominated by conflicting local authorities you tend to get a body which is not coherent, which is fissiparous, and which does not work happily together. That is because, as I said the other day, all its various members tend to look too much to the rock from which they are hewn; they tend to represent competing and conflicting interests rather than to try to do a job of work with that esprit de corps which is so necessary for any body. There is that tendency; I do not put it higher than that.
Of course, where you are appointing a body which is intentionally appointed to represent a particular interest, as, for instance, in the Fifth Schedule, to which the noble Lord referred, there the point is that you do want to get a body of people who represent, as he said, the consumer interest; you want to have the producer interest equally represented and you want a neutral chairman. We think it is right to do it in that case, that is why we do it in the Fifth Schedule and do not do it in the Third Schedule. Of course I appreciate that whenever you entrust a Minister with discretion you run the risk of indiscretion, but at the same time I feel quite sincerely that you are more likely to get a good and harmonious Board (and it is of the essence of the success of this scheme that the Regional Hospital Board should be a good and happy one) if, you entrust the Minister with the responsibility for selecting people whom he thinks to be suitable after consultation with various

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interests. For that reason I do not think I ought to accept this Amendment.
LORD ADDINGTON: In those circum stances I do not propose to pursue this Amendment, but I do hope the Minister will really select those people who are in touch with the local authorities and in touch with the people themselves. We want to get it as democratic as possible; we want as much interest as possible taken by the people where the hospital services are. These members representative of local authorities are the main means of getting local opinion and local wishes represented on the Regional Hospital Board. It is also important that they should be in touch because they are the sole means of achieving that liaison with which we dealt earlier when discussing Clause. In the circumstances, I agree to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.14 p.m.
LORD LUKE LORD LUKE moved, in Part I, paragraph (c), after "area" to insert:
"(d) persons experienced in hospital management appointed after consultation with such organizations as the Minister may recognize as representative of such persons;"
The noble Lord said: With this Amendment I seek to improve the constitution of these Regional Boards. I think it will be agreed that the members of the Boards should be drawn from the widest sphere possible in connection with the health service. At the present moment, members are drawn from the universities, from the medical profession, from local health authorities, and then, rather as an after thought, it looks as if somebody said: "I suppose we ought to have somebody from the hospitals." I agree, of course, that hospital representatives may be included in paragraph (d)—"persons appointed after consultation with such other organizations as appear to the Minister to be concerned." The Schedule refers only to the original members of the Board. It rather looks as if representatives of the voluntary hospitals will be chosen in order to set up the Board and will be dropped again very quickly. I consider that there ought to be on these Regional Boards persons with experience in hospital management, not just in the first place but always, for surely there will be people who will gain that experience after the operation of the Act.
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As constituted in this Schedule, the Board is shorn of representatives from that most important element, the hospitals them selves. In view of the functions which the Boards are to perform in respect of hospitals, I consider this ought to be remedied. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 38, after ("area") insert the said words.—(Lord Luke.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I understand the noble Lord wants to add a fur-them specific category to the present categories of members of Regional Boards, that is to say, persons experienced in hospital management. They are to be appointed after consultation with organizations representative of such persons. I am not quite clear what the intention of the Amendment is, because the Schedule says that the original members of the Board are to be appointed after consultation with local health authorities and the voluntary hospitals, and those two between them cover all the persons experienced in hospital management. The reason we use the word "original" is that as time goes on the only persons having such experience will be those who have served on management committees or board of governors.
I do not think we ought to contemplate dealing with the associations of management committees. The noble Lord might have in mind, of course, associations of officers like the Institution of Hospital Administrators, but once we start dealing with one particular organization we get into the position of having a lot of other organizations with which we ought to deal. I certainly agree with the noble Lord that it would be a lamentable thing if on a Regional Hospital Board we did not have persons who had very great experience of the work, who had rendered valuable services to hospitals for very many years; I think, however, that they come into the two categories. Not only do they come under (d) but they come specifically under the rest of the clause—"… the original members of the Board shall also include persons appointed after consultation with such organizations as the Minister may recognize as representative of voluntary hospitals in the said area." I think that having done that we are sure of getting the services of that valuable class of people—and most valueable

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they are. That being so, I do not think there is any need for this Amendment.
LORD LUKE: I thank the noble and learned Lord Chancellor for his explanation. I felt that the Amendment rather strengthened the whole constitution, but in view of his remarks on it and his explanation I beg leave to withdrawn the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.20 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON LORD WOLVERTON moved, in Part I, at the end of paragraph (d) to add "including those representing the dental profession." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is very much the same as the one I moved just now on behalf of the noble lord, Lord Teviot. Its object is to secure representation of the dental profession on the Regional Boards. I think perhaps we shall be luckier with this one than we were with the last Amendment. Here again they are not specifically mentioned. In paragraph (b) the medical profession is specified, in paragraph (c) the local health authorities, and then paragraph (d) reads:
"persons appointed after consultation with such other organizations as appear to the Minister to be concerned;"
After that I seek to add the words: "including those representing the dental profession". We feel on this side of the House that this important body should be represented directly, and the clause should be strengthened by saying that they should be represented on the Regional Boards. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 40, at end insert ("including those representing the dental profession")—(Lord Wolverton.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have tried to make plain in the general discussion on this Bill the tremendous importance which His Majesty's Government attach to the work of the dental profession, and I have said that if only people were more conscious of the necessity of looking after their teeth, our health as a nation would be much better than it is. On the other hand, I am very anxious not to extend the categories of people to be represented, because the Minister does not want to appoint members as representative of particular interests;
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he wants to select people in their individual capacity. It will always be open to him to consider whether a dentist would, or would not, be a useful member of a particular hospital board, and no doubt in very many cases he ought to have one. On the other hand, if I put dentists down as one of the class of people who must be consulted, then would the noble Lord consider what answer I would have when the nurses came along? He would agree with me that the nurses play an equally important part. Then the midwives—if it were not for them where would any of us be? Then there are the pharmacists, radiographers and goodness only knows who else. I do not think, therefore, that it is wise to extend the categories. If it is left to the Minister to select a wide range of people, I can assure the noble Lord that in selecting them he will not forget something of which we are all very conscious, the immense importance of the dental profession.
LORD WOLVERTON: In view of the assurances from the noble and learned Lord, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.22 p.m.
LORD LUKE LORD LUKE moved in Part I, after "hospitals in the said area," to insert: "Before making appointments to fill vacancies the Minister shall also consult the Board." The noble Lord said: This is an Amendment to provide the machinery which seems to be absent for filling vacancies on the Board. It would appear that the Minister has a direct interest, and should therefore be in consultation with the Board when the filling of vacancies becomes necessary. As was said in another place, there would of course be consultation, but I would rather like to know what objection there is to providing for that in the Bill. The Minister will surely want to know the views of the Regional Board as a whole. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 44, at end insert ("Before making appointments to fill vacancies the Minister shall also consult the Board.").—(Lord Luke.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Your Lordships have all been very kind and we are getting to the end of our proceedings,

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so I will adopt rather a novel course in this case: I will ask your Lordships to decide whether you would like me to accept this Amendment. The Amend-merit requires the Minister to consult the Board, but I do not doubt that the Minister, as a matter of good sense, would normally consult the Board. If, on the other hand, you require him to consult the Board—and I am quite ready for him to do so—may you not put the Board, in certain cases, in a rather difficult position? Is it not better that this sort of thing should be done very informally with certain individual members of the Board, the Minister getting their reactions over a cup of tea, rather than put upon the Minister a duty to consult them formally? I quite see that the Regional Board might be in some difficulty. My own view is that I would prefer not to have the Amendment, but I have authority to say that if the noble Lord and other members of the House press me in regard to it, I may accept it. Having said that, it is up to the noble Lord to say what he wants done.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I cannot speak for my noble friend, but I should presume that as he put the Amendment down and proposed it, he would like it accepted. From my point of view I should.
LORD LUKE: I must thank the noble and learned Lord for this very welcome surprise, and I should be very grateful if he would accept the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Then I accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.25 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved in Part II to leave out "a chairman appointed by the Regional Hospital Board for the area in which the hospital or group of hospitals is situated and such other members so appointed," and to insert "such number of persons appointed by the Regional Hospital Board for the area in which the hospital or group of hospitals is situated." The noble Earl said: This Amendment is one of four which stand in my name, and perhaps it will be convenient if I dispose of them together. It deals, of course, with the hospital management committee and the board of governors. I am very anxious that both the committee and the board should have the opportunity of appointing their own
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chairman. That is to say, the hospital management committee should discuss among themselves as to which person would be the most appropriate to become the chairman of their committee. Exactly the same case applies in the board of governors. They would, as soon as they are set up, consult with one another, perhaps over a cup of tea, and decide who should become their chairman. Practically throughout the whole of life, in every branch of industry, in trade unions, or in political parties, the person who is head or chairman can be appointed only by agreement amongst his colleagues in that particular organization. I believe by that method in most cases you get the best man—certainly the most popular man—and one with whom generally the rest of the committee (in this case the board of governors) are prepared to work whole heartedly and in full co-operation. This is not a wrecking Amendment, but merely one to make quite certain that the committee and the board function smoothly and happily. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 3, leave out from ("of") to ("as") in line 6, and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am afraid I take rather a stronger view about this Amendment than I did the last one. I do not believe this is a good proposal. I very often wondered whether the system whereby a bench of magistrates elect their own chairman was a very good one. I believe this is typically a case where you ought to have those soundings which I have suggested, and you ought to do this thing informally. I would be most sorry to see this proposal carried. Of course, so far as the management committee is concerned, when there is a vacancy or the chairman goes, in nine cases out of ten his successor more or less appoints himself. I mean there is one obvious man. But when that is not so, then the Regional Board must have the last word. If the Regional Board can have a cup of tea—I do not know whether a board can—they can discuss with the other members who is the right person to appoint. After all, he is their servant, he is doing their work, and the last word must lie with them, and they must be able in the last resort to give him that authority. There fore, I suggest to the noble Lord that

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really his Amendment would not be in the best interests of the happy working of this Bill.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: The noble and learned Lord I gather was talking about the hospital management committee. For what purpose is it necessary for the Minister to appoint the chairman of the board of governors of a teaching hospital? I would let the first Amendment go by willingly if the noble and learned Lord would give me the second. I cannot see why the Minister should come in and appoint the chairman of the board of governors, with whom the rest of the board may disagree. He can appoint anybody who is nominated in paragraphs (a), (b), (c) or (d). Like most other persons, they are going to be appointed to the board of governors in consultation with local health authorities. But I am very nervous about this, for I fear that you will find that the chairmen of these boards of governors will not be the people who have functioned for many years. It is possible that they will not be the existing deputy chairmen, but as I said on the Second Reading, some trusty local political colleagues appointed by the Minister.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: As one who is a member of the board of governors of a teaching hospital, I should like to say a word upon this, though I am saying it purely on my own behalf. I should feel very much more confident as to the happy working of that hospital board in the future if I knew that we were going to continue to appoint our own chair man, rather than have one imposed upon us. It might be that the person imposed upon us would be perfectly acceptable. On the other hand, it might be that he would be anything but acceptable, then there would be all sorts of friction, pro tests would perhaps be made to the Minister and the situation, generally, would be very unpleasant. If the matter is left where it is, the appointment would be in the hands of the responsible and experienced board of governors of a teaching hospital, and they could surely be trusted to appoint as chairman a person who was both congenial to themselves and acceptable to the Minister.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the reason for this provision is to be found in the fact that the Minister, after all, is the person who is to be responsible for
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this health service. One of the chief organs by which he is going to carry out his responsibilities is this hospital service, and one of the chief organs of that service will be the teaching hospitals—they are vitally important. The Minister must, therefore, have control. As I said just now wherever you give a man discretion, there is a risk of indiscretion. If the Minister is going to fill all these appointments—and there is a great number of them—with a lot of old, incompetent political cronies then the whole scheme is sunk and finished.
It depends absolutely, in this connexion, on getting a man of first-class intelligence and, I need hardly say, of integrity, representing that section of the community who will devote themselves to this work. I do not think it is really useful to consider that the Minister may (of course it is possible that a Minister might) make a whole lot of wholly unworthy appointments. I suggest that as responsibility for this service has been placed upon the Minister by the first clause of the Bill, he must have to his hand an instrument which satisfies him, and he will have very close and direct dealings, of course, with the governors of teaching hospitals. I think it is of the utmost importance that the chairman of such a board should be a man who is likely to get on well with the Minister, a man who will be amenable, one having the necessary time to discuss problems and able to discuss them.
I repeat that I do not think the Minister would be foolish enough to lump anybody on a committee without taking soundings from the various members to see who they would like to have. In the interests of the work of the hospital the Minister would obviously wish to get someone who is persona grata to the other members of the committee and also person grata to himself. In the last resort, we must assume that the Minister would exercise his discretion wisely. The choice must be left to him.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: May I make this suggestion? Will the noble and learned Lord consider between now and the next stage of this Bill whether he would accept a proposition that the chairman of a board of governors should be appointed by the board with the approval of the Minister?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will certainly get instructions about that, and I will consider it.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I was going to make a similar suggestion. In view of what the noble and learned Lord has said I now desire to withdraw this. I did not intend to suggest that the Minister was a fool or would be so foolish as to appoint some ridiculous political colleague. I can, however, picture him appointing the Chairman of the Hospitals Committee of the L.C.C. to the Chairmanship of the board of one of the teaching hospitals. That is what I want to prevent. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.35 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, in paragraph (a) of Part II to leave out "appointed after consultation with" and insert "selected by the Board from per sons nominated by." The noble Lord said: We have discussed the main part of this Amendment already. As hospital management committees are more local in character and only deal with the area of one local authority, I suggest that the precedent of the executive council should be followed rather than the precedent of the Regional Boards. If the noble and learned Lord Chancellor is not prepared to accept this Amendment I will not move arty more, but now I beg to move this one.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 7, leave out ("appointed after consultation with") and insert ("selected by the Board from persons nominated by")—(Lord Addington.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am afraid the same observations which I made before apply here only perhaps rather more forcibly. I do not think we ought to adopt this suggestion.
LORD ADDINGTON: In the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in Part II, paragraph (c), to leave out "the senior and insert" a committee representing the." The noble Earl said: I understood the noble and learned Lord to intimate when we were discussing Lord Moran's Amendment to Clause 12 that he would be in favour of setting up the committees. He said: "I entirely agree that it is essential to have these medical committees." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 14, leave out ("the senior") and insert ("a committee representing the").—(The Earl of Minister.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should like to have heard from other noble Lords before I replied to this. I entirely agree of course that you have got to consult the medical and dental staff. But I should have thought the people you would want to consult would be the senior people. I must say that I look hopefully towards my noble friend Lord Moran about this. He may be able to advise me upon his. I should be very glad if he would.
LORD MORAN: I think that what this Amendment really means is that the medical staff should be consulted; not the senior members of the medical staff, but the medical staff as a whole. The medical staff because it is a very democratic body does not recognize any distinction between senior and junior members. It does not mind at all that resident officers or house officers should be consulted. It desires simply that the medical staff should be consulted ad hoc and not merely a section of the staff.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I understood it was likely that there would be medical committees in these hospitals. It was thought that they would be the people to consult as to who should be on the hospital management committees. I should have thought that if you had a medical committee that was the right body to consult rather than pick oat any particular senior persons, and that it is desirable that you should have this organization recognized as speaking for the doctors and ex pressing the doctors' views. I should have thought that this was a subject on which they were eminently fitted to give their views.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I agree that where you have a medical commit tee you ought to consult the whole body. Where there are not medical committees the Minister intends to encourage their formation. He wants to get them everywhere. But where there is not one consultation ought none the less to take place. The Minister's intention is, I am told, to consult with the senior staff who ought to be consulted, that is, the consultants and specialists, not the house men. It is for that reason that we pat in the word

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"senior". I gladly give an undertaking, however, that where there is a medical staff committee the staff committee will be consulted as an entity without simply picking out the older and more distinguished members of a distinguished galaxy. In other cases, we shall have to consult the consultants and specialists, as opposed to the house men.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I am very much obliged to the noble and learned Lord, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LUKE LORD LUKE moved to add to Part II: "Before making appointments to fill vacancies the Board shall also consult the committee" The noble Lord said: This is a similar Amendment to the last, that the Board shall consult the committee before filling any vacancies. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 23, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Luke.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have been so kind to the noble Lord already that he does not deserve any more, but he has been very kind to me, and there fore I will accept this Amendment.
LORD LUKE: I suppose that I am allowed to rise and thank the noble and learned Lord?
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.43 p.m.
LORD MORAN LORD MORAN moved, in Part III, paragraph (a) to leave out "one-fifth" and insert "two-fifths". The noble Lord said: I need not detain your Lordships long on this Amendment. It is concerned with vulgar fractions. It is possible that the noble and learned Lord may say that if he accepted this Amendment, it would alter the composition of the whole committee. When matters concerning major local authorities or local management committees, or even lesser local authorities, come before your Lordships' House they are warmly supported from many quarters, but the university is the Cinderella of these proceedings. I want to stress this Amendment simply because it increases the influence of the university on a committee which is fundamentally concerned with research and teaching and
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these, after all, are the functions of a university. There are two other reasons why I think that the position of the universities should be strengthened. In the first place, that is the only way you can obtain harmoniously decentralization of specialists. In the second place, to have a university service is the only way you can bring up the standards of the periphery to that of the centre. The purpose of this Amendment is to strengthen the influence of the universities.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 29, leave out ("one-fifth") and insert ("two-fifths").—(Lord Moran.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I must say that I thought we had treated the universities pretty handsomely, but they are like Oliver Twist: they want more. Under the Third Schedule as it stands, one-fifth of the members of the commit tee are to be nominated by the appropriate university. The same proportion—that is another one-fifth—are to be appointed by the medical and dental teaching staff. This means that something like two-fifths will be academic members. The Amendment, if adopted, would mean that the academic element might be as much as three-fifths. That is a substantial majority, and I think it would be overweighting the academic representation. Three-fifths is a higher proportion than is usually found on the governing bodies of teaching hospitals at the present time. Of course, a teaching hospital has a dual function, treatment of patients, and research and teaching doctors. We must not have an undue emphasis on the teaching side for the future; we must have due regard for the patients. I suggest that the university influence, which I agree is of fundamental importance, is already adequately assured by the not ungenerous provision which I have described.
LORD LLEWELLIN: It does not seem to matter very much whether this reads "not mare than one-fifth," or "not more than two-fifths," because, strangely enough, it does not say a minimum number. Is it the intention that normally the proportion will be one-fifth?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I under stand the intention is that one-fifth shall be university members. We have adopted these words; otherwise, we should have had complications with vulgar fractions.
LORD MORAN: At this late hour, I will not take up very much time in explaining to the noble and learned Lord opposite that patients' interests are always looked after. That is admitted in the whole profession, and in the last twenty-five years I have seen the gradual weaning of public opinion from the idea that a teaching hospital does not exist for the care of the sick but for the teaching of knowledge. However, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MORAN LORD MORAN moved to leave out paragraph (c) in Part III and insert:
"(c) not more than one-fifth shall be per sons nominated by the medical staff committee of every hospital in the group; and"
The noble Lord said: This is a verbal alteration, necessitated by the fact that a teaching hospital is not always one in stitution. In the provinces, it is often two or three. Where that is the case, this Amendment aims at seeing that each hospital is represented.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 33, leave out paragraph ("c") and insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Moran.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If your Lordships will allow me not to deal with this now, and if the noble Lord will with draw his Amendment, I will see if I can not insert suitable words on the Report stage. I am rather out of my depth.
LORD MORAN: I thank the noble and learned Lord, and beg leave to with draw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MORAN LORD MORAN moved in Part III, paragraph (d), after "with" to insert: "the university with which the hospital is associated and with". The noble Lord said: This is really another step to add to university influence, and in view of the fate of the former I have not great hopes. It is simply to add the university to the bodies which the Minister will consult for the remaining two-fifths in the composition of this committee.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 35, after ("with") insert the said words.—(Lord Moran.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sorry that I cannot help my noble friend about this, but I am glad to think that in
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refusing him I am not destroying his hopes for the universities.
LORD MORAN: I beg leave to with draw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.48 p.m.
LORD LUKE LORD LUKE moved, at the end of Part III, to insert: "Before making appointments to fill vacancies the Minister shall consult the board." The noble Lord said: This is another Amendment similar to the other two, and I do not know whether the indulgence of the noble and learned Lord will extend to this, as well as to the others. I hope that it may.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 41, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Luke.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not think that I ought to go further. I know that it is said that good things go in threes, but on its merits I really do not think that this ought to be accepted.
LORD LLEWELLIN: Is that right? If you consult each of the others, ought, you not to consult the board of governors before filling a vacancy? You pay the original board the compliment of consulting them; you pay the hospital management committee the compliment of consulting them; but when you are filling a vacancy of the board of governors of a teaching hospital you say—as I under stand it—that because the noble Lord, Lord Luke, has had two successes the board of the teaching hospital will not be consulted. I should have thought that it would be logical, if you consult one in this way, to consult all three. Possibly the noble and learned Lord had not his brief before him when he replied, and I hope that he will reconsider this matter and put the three in the same category.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I had better look at all three. If the noble Lord desires it, I will look into this matter. If I am putting in the other two, I will consider putting in the third. In the meantime, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Luke, will withdraw and I will see how deeply my neck is in the noose.
LORD LUKE: I think the noble Lord will find it is rather logical, but, never the less, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Fourth Schedule:

FOURTH SCHEDULE.
PART II.
Health Committees.
3. A local health authority may authorize the health committee to exercise on their be half any of their functions as a local health authority, except the power to borrow money or to levy or issue a precept for a rate.
4. At least a majority of the health committee of a local health authority shall be members of the authority.
5. The minutes of proceedings of the health committee shall be open to the inspection of any local government elector for the area on payment of a fee not exceeding one shilling and any such local government elector may make a copy thereof or extract therefrom.
6. The health committee of a local health authority may, subject to any restrictions imposed by the local health authority, establish such sub-committees as the health committee may determine, and any sub-committee established under this paragraph shall be constituted in such manner as may, subject to any restrictions imposed by the local health authority, be determined by the health committee, and at least a majority of every sub-committee shall be members of the local health authority or of a local authority for any area forming part of the area of the local health authority.
7. The health committee of a local health authority may, subject to any restrictions imposed by the local health authority, authorize any sub-committee to exercise on their behalf any functions of the health committee.
6.51 p.m.
LORD ADDINGTON LORD ADDINGTON moved, in Part II, to leave out paragraphs 3 and 4 and insert
"The provisions of the Local Government Act, 1933, (except subsection (5) of Section 85) shall apply to every health committee as if that committee were appointed under the said Section 85."
The noble Lord said: This raises a different point. As I see it, there are two conflicting codes for the health committees of the county and county borough councils. Section 85 of the Local Government Act 1933 is the section under which local authorities are given a general power to appoint committees. This section gives power to delegate; it authorizes a local authority to fix the number of the committee and the terms of office; it includes power to add members who are not members of the local authority, pro vided that at least two-thirds of every
664
committee shall be members of the local authority. The Schedule in the Bill as drawn purports to set up a separate code for the appointment of a health committee and this appears to be quite unnecessary and really quite unworkable. The main difference between the terms of Part II of the Fourth Schedule of the Bill and Section 85 of the Local Government Act is contained in paragraph 4, which says that at least a majority of the health committee shall be members of the local authority, whereas the Local Government Act requires that two-thirds of the committee shall be members of the local authority. I think that the Association feel that the Local Government code is to be preferred and that the two-thirds majority should apply to the health committee as to other committees.
The acceptance of the Amendment would further have the effect of applying Sections 94 and 95 of the Local Government Act, 1933. As the Bill stands, those sections would not apply to those health committees. Section 94 is the one that applies the rules relating to disqualification for office as a member of a local authority, that is due to bankruptcy and conviction for certain offences. Section 95 applies the disability against voting on account of interest in a contract to members of committees. In other words, co-opted members of a committee would be made subject to both of these sections in the same way as elected representatives if this Amendment is accepted. I think it is very necessary. I hope that I may be included among the recipients of the kind nesses which have been shown, if the noble Lord, Lord Luke, has not received all the kindnesses that are available. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 68, line 37, leave out from ("3") to ("authority") in line 42 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Addington.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I hope that I shall not be outdone in generosity by my noble and learned friend, but the noble Lord opposite will remember that there are other colleagues of his on the Benches opposite whose Amendments have still to come. What I think the noble Lord wants is for the provisions of the Local Government Act of 1933 to apply to the appointment of health committees by local health authorities, instead of the provisions of the Fourth Schedule of this Bill. Let us see what alterations this

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would make. First of all, it would mean that at least two-thirds of the members of the health committees would have to be members of the authority instead of simply being a majority. The second change this would mean is that the health committees would not be able to set up sub-committees, to which some of their powers could be delegated. Finally, the third change would be that the health committees would not be able to set up sub-committees, as they otherwise could under this Schedule, with outside persons—health experts—who were not members of the local authority, or members appointed to the committee. I do think these would be definite disadvantages.
For some time I worked on the committees of the London County Council, and I always found it was a good thing to be able to co-opt a certain number of outside experts. That certainly applied to all the committees on which I served, and I think that the health committee of a local health authority under this Bill would be in exactly the same position as any of the important committees of the London County Council. Surely it is desirable that the main health committee should be able to include a fair number of outside experts. Surely it is also desirable that this committee should be able to set up sub-committees to deal with a particular area or particular subjects, and to delegate to these committees certain functions, for instance, maternity and child welfare or mental health. I do think these advantages accruing to the health committees under the procedure in the Schedule with which the noble Lord is dealing would be definitely lost if the old procedure under the Act of 1933 were adopted.
LORD ADDINGTON: I do not think that the noble Earl is quite accurate. As far as I am advised, the section of the Local Government Act does give power to appoint, to delegate, and to appoint sub-committees. The main difference is that the co-opted members cannot exceed one-third. I think it is very inconvenient if the public health authorities have to work on two different codes. If there were one code governing them, it would be a very great convenience in working. Perhaps the noble Earl would again see whether he is quite accurate in what Section 85 of the Local Government Act does say.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I will certainly go into that.
LORD ADDINGTON: Perhaps he will look it up again. I will not press my Amendment at this stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Fourth Schedule agreed to.
Fifth and Sixth Schedules agreed to.
Seventh Schedule [Constitution of Tribunal]:
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: There is on this Schedule a consequential Amendment following an Amendment the Committee has already accepted in Clause 41. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 10, leave out from the first ("an") to ("and") in line 11 and insert ("ophthalmic optician and a dispensing optician").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Seventh Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Eighth Schedule agreed to.
Ninth Schedule [Amendment and repeal of enactments relating to persons of unsound mind and mental defectives]:
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: There is a drafting Amendment to exclude the words "fourteen days" and to insert the words "after which."
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 46, leave out ("fourteen days") and insert ("after which").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
7.0 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to add to the reference to Section 55 of The Lunacy Act, 1890:
"in subsection (3) the word 'private' where it last occurs shall be omitted; and for subsection (6) there shall be substituted the following subsection:
'(6) Where any patient detained in a registered hospital in pursuance of a contract with a Regional Hospital Board is permitted under this section to be absent upon trial two members of the managing committee of the hospital may make an allowance to the patient during the period of his absence not exceeding the amount payable under the contract for his maintenance in the hospital and the allowance shall either be paid to him or for his benefit as the members of the managing committee may direct.'"
The noble Earl said: This is the first of a series of Amendments, and I think it would probably be convenient to your Lordships if I were to explain the point on the first one. What we are doing under this Bill is to transfer certain powers governing mental health to the Minister of Health. There will be some registered hospitals, and by the expression "registered hospital" I think that what is meant is a hospital run privately, and one which is independent from any public authority which will not transfer to the Minister under Clause 6 of this Bill. What will have to be done is for hospital accommodation for persons suffering from mental illness to be arranged by means of contracts between the management of these hospitals and the Ministry. All the various Amendments that are tabled here are a means of making these arrangements practicable. The first is to enable the medical superintendent of a registered hospital to allow a patient received there under contract to be sent out on trial. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 75, line 35, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD LEWELLIN: I think we are all much obliged to the noble Earl for his explanation in regard to this and subsequent Amendments. I do not think they raise any matter at issue, and unless any other noble Lord suggests otherwise, I suggest that the noble Earl moves them formally.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 75, line 44, at end insert—
("For section sixty-one there shall be sub stituted the following section:—
'61. Where a patient is detained in a registered hospital in pursuance of a contract with a Regional Hospital Board, the Board may make an order for the removal of the patient and may direct the mode of removal and on production to the manager of the hospital of a copy of the order he shall forth with remove the patient or permit him to be removed in accordance with the order.'")
Page 76, line 16, after ("detained") insert ("in any such institution or under such care")
Page 76, line 21, after ("detained") insert ("in any such institution or under such care")
Page 76, line 33, at end insert—
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("For Section seventy-three there shall be substituted the following section:—
'73. Where any patient is detained in a registered hospital in pursuance of a contract with a Regional Hospital Board, the Board may make an order for the discharge of the patient and may direct the mode of discharge, and on production to the manager of the hospital of a copy of the order he shall forthwith discharge the patient or permit him to be discharged in accordance with the order.'")
Leave out lines 34 and 35.
Page 83, line 10, leave out ("sixty-one and")
Page 83, line 11, after ("omitted") insert ("for the words 'that Act', where they first occur, there shall be substituted the words the principal Act'")
Page 83, line 20, after ("seventy-five") insert ("of the principal Act")
Page 83, line 21, after ("seventy-seven") insert ("of that Act")
Page 83, line 38, leave out ("subsection (6) of Section fifty-five")
Page 83, line 40, leave out ("61")
Page 83, line 41, leave out ("73").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Ninth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Tenth Schedule [Consequential amendments and repeals]:
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: The first Amendment to the Tenth Schedule is con sequential upon Amendments already accepted. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 85, line 5, at end insert—
("The Children and Young Persons Act, 1933 23 & 24 Geo. 5. C. 12.
In Section ninety-two, for the words 'Board of Control' there shall be substituted the words 'Minister of Health'.")—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: This Amendment is consequential upon a previous Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 88, leave out lines 29 to 34.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Tenth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

STATE EMPLOYEES.
7.7 p.m.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, what is now the total number of persons in the employ of the State as compared with the number employed before the war; what additions have been made in the number of such persons during the current year; and what further additions to State employees it is estimated will be required when the increased staffs now being recruited for the Ministry of National Insurance, the Ministry of Health and other Government Departments have been engaged.]
LORD WALKDEN: The non-industrial staff of the Civil Service totalled just under 400,000 on April 1, 1939, the date nearest to the beginning of the war for which firm figures are available. The number employed at July 1, 1946, was just under 709,500. Since January 1, 1946, the number has increased by 18,500 over the whole Service. In 1939 the number of staff employed on work now performed by the Ministry of National Insurance (other than the Family Allowance Scheme) was about 7,000. Since the beginning of 1946 the numbers employed by the Ministry of National Insurance have increased from 7,900 to rather more than 12,000. The ultimate number to be employed by this Ministry may be of the order of 32,000 to 33,000, distributed as follows: London headquarters 500, regional and local offices 25,000, Newcastle office 7,000.
To the extent of about 15,000 to 16,000 persons, this increase of staff will represent the transfer of functions from approved societies and the replacement of staff now engaged on work arising from the Workmen's Compensation Acts. No corresponding increase is expected in the numbers of staff to be employed by the Ministry of Health. There only about 500 additional staff will be needed
670
in the next few years to handle the Ministry's increased duties. No firm estimate of the future overall size of the Service can be made at the present time.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: Do I under stand from what the noble Lord has just said and the figures which he has given that, speaking generally, the number of persons estimated to be in Government employ in the immediate future will be in the neighbourhood of 1,000,000, and, having regard to the urgency of finding persons to engage in industry and the lack of people available for industry, may I ask the Government to take into consideration the desirability of getting this vast number of civil servants reduced as much as possible in the early future, especially as similar increases in unproductive labour have taken place in local government?
LORD WALKDEN: The noble Lord must not take it that I indicated that the persons employed in the Civil Service would approximate to one million. I do not think that at all. I can add nothing to the figures I have already given, and the further supplementary question goes a long way beyond the original question.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the

County Borough of Great Yarmouth;

Borough of Chesterfield;

Borough of Daventry.

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolutions and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at nine minutes past seven o'clock.