Sitting of 14 October 1946

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  MANCHURIA (BRITISH PROPERTY)
  Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement regarding the return of British property to its owners in Manchuria.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): According to the latest reports received from Mukden, the position there is satisfactory. With two exceptions, British property has been repossessed by its rightful owners, and in these two cases it is hoped to secure possession very soon. Little information is at present available regarding British property elsewhere in Manchuria, in some parts of which the Chinese Government is not yet in full control. His Majesty's Consul-General at Mukden, however, is being asked to investigate the position.
  Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Minister undertake to press the British claim for compensation for property and machinery which has either been damaged or removed?
  Mr. Mayhew: The position there, as I am sure the hon. and gallant Member will appreciate, is rather obscure, but we have got the Consul-General establishing himself at Mukden, and, as soon as we hear from him, we will see what further steps can be taken.
  Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Will the Minister say what is causing the delay in the two cases?
  Mr. Mayhew: The two cases should be solved very shortly. It was a question of unauthorised personnel being there, and a large number of them have gone. We hope the position will be clear soon.

  JAPAN (NON-NATIONALS)
  Mr. William Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British subjects, other than in the Forces, have been allowed to enter Japan since the surrender of Japan; how many of these represent British business interests in Japan; how many are Christian missionaries; and for how long can permits be granted.
  Mr. Mayhew: In view of the critical food and housing situation in Japan, admission of non-Japanese is at present limited as far as possible to those persons who will lend direct operational assistance to the occupation, and no business-men as such have yet been allowed into the country. To the best of my knowledge, three missionaries from the United Kingdom have entered Japan since the occupation, two of them on a temporary visit from which they have now returned.
  Apart from these and from members of the Forces, no British subjects other than officials have been permitted to enter Japan.
  Mr. Teeling: Can I understand from that answer that the same applies to other people belonging to the Allied nations?
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. The same regulations apply, but, of course, I can only answer for the British.

  POLAND

    Resettlement Corps (Loss of Nationality)
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he is taking to ensure that Polish soldiers who enrol in the Resettlement Corps do not forfeit their Polish nationality.
    Mr. Mayhew: Every attempt has been made to explain to the Polish Provisional Government the reasons for which an organisation on the lines of the Polish Resettlement Corps is necessary in order to provide for the settlement in civil

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    life in this country or overseas of Poles who hesitate to return to Poland in existing circumstances. I regret to inform the House that on 12th September, while these diplomatic exchanges were continuing, the Polish Minister of Defence announced publicly that Poles joining the Resettlement Corps might lose their nationality under the law of 20th January, 1920. A number of Poles have since been deprived of their nationality. His Majesty's Government are still in communication with the Polish Provisional Government on this subject.
    Mr. Warbey: Can my hon. Friend say whether there is any good reason why we should not take the sensible step of removing these men from the control of the War Office and placing them under the control of the Minister of Labour?
    Mr. Mayhew: The Corps, as my hon. Friend knows, is not a military organisation, but anyone who has had to deal with these problems knows that, for administrative reasons, there is a great deal to be said for the present arrangement.
    Mr. H. Hynd: If it is not a military organisation, why are they being kept in military uniform?
    Mr. Mayhew: I cannot say more than that anyone with experience of dealing with these vast numbers of men will know that, unless we deal with them on lines like this, we get into a terrible mess.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: If they are not under military control, would it not do away with the difficulty with which they meet in their own country of losing their nationality, which is quite an important thing, on joining the Forces of a foreign land?
    Mr. Mayhew: As I explained in my reply, diplomatic negotiations are in progress and perhaps I had better not say anything until these have been completed.
    Sir Ian Fraser: Is it not supremely important that a way should be kept open for these men to return to Poland one day even if they cannot do so at present?
    Mr. Mayhew: Certainly, Sir.

    British Soldier's Arrest and Release
    Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give particulars of the reply received to his
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    protest against the arrest and imprisonment, by the Polish Security Police, of Private Alvin Vincent, of the York and Lancaster Regiment; and whether the Polish Provisional Government have undertaken to pay compensation for the tortures inflicted on Private Vincent.
    Mr. Mayhew: Private Vincent, who was released from a Polish prison on 2nd October, made a preliminary statement to His Majesty's Embassy at Warsaw, but has since been sent to Berlin for interrogation by the British military authorities there, the report of which is not yet available. Meanwhile His Majesty's Ambassador has made representations to the Polish Provisional Government regarding Private Vincent's complaints that he was not allowed to communicate with His Majesty's Embassy or Consular officers during his detention and that he received an injury at the hands of a Polish captain. No reply has yet been received from the Polish Provisional Government to these representations.
    Professor Savory: Did he not also state that for four hours he was placed under a shower bath on an icy cold floor, was awakened at two o'clock the following morning and again placed under this shower for another four hours, and that this process of torture was repeated seven times?
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir, that is not yet our information.
    Professor Savory: Will the Minister read "The People" of yesterday?

    General Election
    Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any date has been definitely fixed for the General Election in Poland; and whether, in view of the Yalta and Potsdam agreements, he has given his approval of the new electoral law disfranchising organisations tending to upset the democratic régime of the Polish State.
    Mr. Mayhew: So far as I know, no date has been fixed. The text of the electoral law is still under examination. I will have a translation of it placed in the Library of the House.
    Professor Savory: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that under the clause which I have just quoted, it is perfectly possible to exclude all the opposition parties and to prevent them from voting?
    Mr. Mayhew: The law is extremely long and complicated. It is under examination, and perhaps the hon. Member will excuse me if I do not comment now.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: Is it not time that we put an end to this continued delay in holding an election in Poland?

  PASSPORTS AND VISAS
  Wing-Commander Roland Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is yet in a position to make a statement with regard to the abolition or simplification of the passport system with a view to the greater encouragement of tourist traffic and foreign travel.
  Mr. Mayhew: As has been recently announced, His Majesty's Government have proposed to the French Government, with a view to facilitating communications between the two countries as well as developing the tourist traffic, that they should enter into an arrangement for the mutual abolition of visas. The French Government have accepted this suggestion with pleasure, and steps will be taken shortly to work out the necessary formalities. His Majesty's Government contemplate making similar proposals to other Governments.
  Wing-Commander Robinson: Can the Under-Secretary give an approximate date when the visa system between Britain and France will come to an end?

  SWEDEN (BRITISH OFFICIALS, REMUNERATION)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the remuneration of British officials in Sweden has not been increased to compensate for the alteration in the Swedish rate of exchange.
  Mr. Mayhew: Increases for this purpose are being granted as rapidly as possible, to all sterling paid personnel. Increases have already been granted in a substantial number of cases.
  Mr. Keeling: Is the Under-Secretary aware that the rate was altered to the disadvantage of these officials a good many months ago? Why should they wait so long?
  Mr. Mayhew: In order to make the necessary calculations it is necessary to bear in mind what proportion of their pay and allowances is spent in Sweden, and the making of these calculations, though proceeding as rapidly as possible, has not yet been completed in regard to several senior officials.
  Mr. Martin Lindsay: Will the arrangement be retrospective?
  Mr. Mayhew: Certainly.

  GREECE

    Arms and Military Supplies
    Mr. Edelmanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what arms and military supplies have been supplied on behalf of His Majesty's Government to the Greek Government during the last six months; and what further arms and military supplies it is intended to supply.
    Mr. Benn Levyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what application for arms has been received from the Greek Government; and on what conditions that request has been, or is to be, granted by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Mayhew: The hon. Members will be aware that His Majesty's Government undertook in October, 1945, to make available free of charge certain additional initial equipment for the Greek Army and gendarmerie, the estimated value of which would be about £11 million It was understood at that time that the Greek Government would pay for the maintenance of their Armed Forces as from 1st January, 1946. It has since become clear that the Greek Government are unable to do this, and His Majesty's Government accordingly undertook some months ago to assist them in meeting this cost until 31st March, 1947. The actual arrangements to this end, and the estimates of the cost, are not yet complete. The Greek Government have, moreover, very recently suggested to His Majesty's Government that, in view of the deterioration in the state of law and order in Greece, the scales hitherto agreed between the British and Greek military authorities to be the minimum necessary should be increased in certain respects. These proposals are at present being examined.
    Mr. Edelman: In view of the grave dangers which would arise in Greece from

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    intervention with arms by Russia, Yugoslavia, Great Britain, or any other Power, would the Minister state definitely that he will not agree to arm a Greek militia?
    Mr. Mayhew: We have not been approached officially on that question. I gather that it has been raised in Greece, but, as it is rather a different matter, perhaps the hon. Member would put down a special Question.
    Mr. Levy: Can the Minister give any assurance at all to allay the fear that such arms as these may find their way to equip not a truly national impartial Army, but the particular partisans of the present very dubious régime for the purpose of subduing their political opponents?
    Mr. Mayhew: Our commitments only deal with the regular Greek Forces.
    Mr. Warbey: What does my hon. Friend mean by saying that no request has been made officially for the arming of a private Army in Greece, but that such a request has been made in Greece? Does he mean that it has been made to the British Ambassador, or not?
    Mr. Mayhew: I merely mean that this matter has been under discussion in Greece, not with ourselves or on an official level, but that it has been raised by the Greeks.
    Mr. Warbey: Has it been raised with British representatives?
    Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. I am sorry I used the word "raised" incorrectly. All I meant to say was that no official communication has been made to His Majesty's Government in this connection.
    Mr. Austin: Is my hon. Friend aware that a more democratic representation in the Greek Government would do away with the necessity of such arming altogether?

  GERMAN-SOVIET AGREEMENT (DOCUMENTS)
  Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if he has obtained from the archives of the German Foreign Office any evidence of a secret German-Soviet treaty in connection with the German-Soviet non-aggression pact of 1939.
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. The text of an agreement, supplementary to the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Agreement of August 23rd, 1939, has been found.
  Mr. Reid: Will the Minister state what were the terms of that agreement?
  Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir, not at this moment.
  Mr. Thurtle: Could my hon. Friend say whether he intends to publish that agreement?
  Mr. Mayhew: The question of publication is rather a different matter. Perhaps the hon. Member would put down a Question.
  Professor Savory: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the texts of both the secret protocols have already been published in this country—I have them in my hand—and that the intention was to divide Poland on the line of the Narev, the Vistula and the San, a fourth partition of Poland?
  Mr. Stokes: When he is considering the publication of a White Paper, will the Minister also consider incorporating in it the negotiations which preceded this Treaty between this country and Russia?
  Mr. Mayhew: We will certainly bear that point in mind.

  DARDANELLES (MONTREUX CONVENTION)
  Professor Savoryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the defence of the Dardanelles and the proposed revision of the Montreux Convention.
  Mr. Mayhew: No, Sir. His Majesty's Government have recently been in communication with the Soviet and Turkish Governments on this subject, and my right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position to make a statement concerning the attitude of His Majesty's Government during the course of the Debate next week.

  ICELAND (AMERICAN AIR BASES)
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the nature of the representations he has been making

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  to the Icelandic Government to accede to the United States request for air bases and other concessions.
  Mr. Mayhew: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) on 9th October.

  BRITISH TOURIST INDUSTRY (FRENCH VISITORS)
  Wing-Commander Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the interests of the British tourist industry, he will approach the French Government with a view to their allowing individual French nationals visiting this country to bring with them an amount of money equivalent to that allowed by the British Government to British citizens spending their holidays in France.
  Mr. Mayhew: I will certainly bear this suggestion in mind, though it must be recognised that the French are very short of sterling. Our financial experts hold periodical meetings with the French experts and the tourist question is expected to be discussed by them in the near future.

  FOREIGN SERVICE (OFFICIALS' MOTORCARS)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that members of the Diplomatic Service abroad are compelled to buy foreign motorcars; and whether, in the interest of British industrial prestige, he will arrange special facilities for the purchase of British motorcars by British diplomats.
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir. The motor industry has now arranged to give preference, so far as practicable, to private orders for cars from British representatives overseas. It is, of course, the policy of my right hon. Friend that all official cars supplied to Foreign Service posts should be of British make.
  Major Mott-Radclyffe: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is no less important that these cars should be kept on the road and that there should be adequate supplies of spare parts? Daimler cars have been supplied to His Majesty's missions abroad, and it is impossible to
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  get the simplest spare parts without sending all the way to this country for them.
  Mr. Mayhew: Yes, Sir, and the Motor Manufacturers' Association is certainly bearing in mind the question of keeping on the road the cars sent overseas.

  ROADS

    Haulage Organisation (Defence Regulation)
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Transport whether, having regard to the abolition of the Government's road haulage organisation and to the revocation of the Road Transport of Goods Order, 1944, he will take steps to rescind Regulation 73B as being no longer necessary
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): In my reply to the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) on 8th July, I explained that Defence Regulation 73B would remain in force in case of any breakdown of the arrangements made with the Road Haulage Association.
    Sir J. Mellor: Does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate any breakdown?
    Mr. Barnes: I do not anticipate any breakdown, and I think this regulation is an assurance that there will not be any.
    Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the existence and maintenance of the regulation causes a considerable amount of worry to road hauliers, and, as it is doubtful whether any future proposal to nationalise the industry will become law, why does not the right hon. Gentleman abolish the regulation altogether?
    Mr. Barnes: I am not aware of any worry on this account, but, on the second point, possibly, yes.
    Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: What sort of breakdown has the right hon. Gentleman in mind? This sort of regulation only stops lorries from running.

    Great North Road, Stevenage (Temporary Closure)
    Mr. Wilson Harrisasked the Minister of Transport whether it was by his authority that the Great North Road, at Stevenage, was closed to traffic on 24th September; and whether he will take steps

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    to prevent transit on the trunk roads of the country being interrupted by local festivities.
    Mr. Barnes: I am informed that under a charter granted in the Seventeenth Century the local council at Stevenage has the right to hold an annual fair in the middle of the town on a site which includes part of the Great North Road. The fair was held this year on 24th September, and for that purpose the Stevenage Urban District Council caused the road to be closed under the provisions of Section 21 of the Town Police Clauses Act, 1847. Notice of the intention to close the road was not given to me as highway authority of the trunk road; but travellers were warned of the diversion by means of notices posted at suitable sites along the road. It appears doubtful whether I have any power to prevent the closure of the road in the circumstances stated, but I will certainly pursue the matter with a view to minimising the inconvenience to traffic caused by these ancient rights and privileges.
    Mr. Harris: I appreciate the conservatism which leads the right hon. Gentleman to issue instructions, but does he really mean that this trunk highway may be closed on 24th September every year; and will he consult with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning with a view to moving the township a mile or two to the East or the West?
    Mr. Barnes: We certainly appear to want a liberal interpretation of this character. I have stated the facts to the hon. Gentleman, and the future will lead to further examination.

    Proposed New Road, Warrington
    Sir Robert Youngasked the Minister of Transport whether he has been able to make any arrangements regarding the Padgate R.A.F. Personnel Reception Depot, the Bisley Royal Ordnance Factory and the Burtonwood R.A.F. Station, so that the construction of the proposed new main road lying to the north of Warrington may be undertaken; or what are the difficulties causing delay.
    Mr. Barnes: This is a matter for the responsible highway authorities in the first instance. I have had no approach from them on the subject.

    Old Palace Yard, Westminster (Pedestrian Crossing)
    Mr. James Hudsonasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the high speed and ill-direction of much traffic which passes along the street between the Houses of Parliament and No. 5, Old Palace Yard, he will recommend the placing of an island to assist Members, constituents and secretaries who frequently cross to No. 5, and to define the lanes of traffic at this point.
    Mr. Barnes: I am considering, with the Commissioner of Police and the Westminster City Council, both suggestions made by my hon. Friend, with a view to increasing the safety of all road users. I would, however, remind him that there is a pedestrian crossing in St. Margaret's Street which is police controlled when the House is sitting, and that the use of this crossing by persons going from St. Stephen's Hall to No. 5, Old Palace Yard involves an extra distance of only 50 yards.
    Mr. M. Lindsay: Will the Minister bear in mind that there has already been one fatal accident there in the last month, that there are already six by-elections pending, and that Ministers' and hon. Members' secretaries are very hard to replace?
    Mr. Barnes: As I have indicated, I am aware of that, and am consulting the police and the Westminster City Council.
    Mr. Hudson: When the Minister speaks about a distance of an extra 50 yards, will he bear in mind that some hon. Members cannot afford an extra 50 yards when the Division bells are sounded?
    Mr. Barnes: Better to miss a Division than to a miss a limb.
    Mr. William Adams: Will the Minister bear in mind that even 50 yards is a personal hardship?

    Private-Hire Vehicles (Drivers' Hours)
    Mr. John Lewisasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that drivers of private-hire vehicles are working unreasonable hours; and if he is prepared to introduce legislation to extend the existing provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, limiting the hours of work of drivers of service and heavy-goods vehicles, to cover the hours of work of drivers of private-hire vehicles.
    Mr. Barnes: I have received representations to the effect that the hours worked by drivers of private-hire vehicles are in some cases excessive. Apart from the fact that conditions are still far from normal in this type of transport, any scheme of control over private-hire vehicles, of which statutory control of hours could only be part, would involve legislation, and of this I see no early prospect.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the Minister aware that thousands of men are being exploited in this way every day; and will he bear in mind that the interim report in 1939 of the inter-Departmental committee on cabs and private-hire vehicles recommended that conditions as to hours of duty should be attached to the licences involved?
    Mr. Barnes: Yes, Sir. I have very great sympathy with the point of view which the hon. Member has expressed, and I consider there is substance in it. However, it requires legislation, of which, as I have indicated, at the moment I see no prospect.

    Driving Test
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Transport whether, and by what date, all motorists at present holding provisional driving licences will have to pass a driving test.
    Mr. Barnes: I would ask my hon. Friend to await the legislation which I shall shortly be introducing.

    Headlights (Dazzle Problem)
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made with arrangements for dealing with the headlight dazzle problem.
    Mr. Barnes: Arrangements have recently been made for the technical aspects of this matter to be re-examined by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research in consultation with the technical officers of my Department. The problems are such that it may be some time before results can be achieved.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is it not a fact that these arrangements have been going on for a long time? The problem is urgent. Will the right hon. Gentleman see that something is done about it?
    Mr. Barnes: I do not quite see how one can fasten upon the Minister the
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    responsibility of solving the problem of dazzle lights. I can only promote all possible inquiries, hoping that at some time or another a solution will be evolved.
    Mr. Norman Smith: Can the right hon. Gentleman do something to make available the electrical appliance—I believe it is called the solenoid—so as to make the dippers work? Is he aware that these things are unprocurable on the market, that they have been unprocurable ever since the war, and that the garage people are telling motorists that they simply cannot get them?
    Mr. Barnes: I will certainly make a note of that point.
    Lieut. - Commander Joynson - Hicks: Will the right hon. Gentleman expedite the planting of central paths in dual carriage ways to provide an anti-dazzle screen between the dual carriage ways?
    Mr. Barnes: That is a development with which, I hope, we shall be able to proceed.

    Safety Problems
    Mr. Jannerasked the Lord President of the Council to what extent the Road Research Laboratory is engaged on research into questions of safety on the roads; how the expenditure on this research is borne; and whether, in view of the encouraging results to date, steps are to be taken to expand and increase this work at the earliest opportunity.
    The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The scope of the Road Research Laboratory has included road safety only since December, 1945. Separate Committees of the Road Research Board are now active in the study of the three main divisions of the subject—the vehicle, the road and the road user—and a fourth committee is considering accident statistics. The Committee on Road Users has been appointed jointly by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Medical Research Council, the latter body being concerned with the investigation of the human factors. Research work is already in hand on a number of problems, including those associated with the production of suitable road surfaces, with the design of road junctions, and with headlamp dazzle and vehicle performance tests. The cost of road research is largely

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    borne on the vote of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, but the cost of full scale experiments on the public highway is borne by the Road Fund, and the Medical Research Council will bear the cost of investigations that they undertake. Subject to the severe restrictions at present imposed by the shortage of scientific manpower, everything possible is being done to expand the work of the Road Research Organisation on questions of road safety.
    Sir W. Smithers: Could the right hon. Gentleman also appoint a committee to inquire into the extent to which this Government is leading this country down the road to serfdom?

  SHIPPING

    Delayed Cargoes, Singapore
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Transport if he has considered the details, which have been sent to him, about the delay in shipping owing to the centralisation of control; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir Patrick Hannonasked the Minister of Transport the circumstances in which two ships, "Samtrent" and "Savigna," were bought from the U.S. Government for the conveyance of Pearl Harbour coal dust for Singapore, and 8,000 tons of this article were consigned there; as it was found on arrival that the coal dust was not required and was re-consigned to Batavia, if he will say whether the cargoes are still afloat; and what will be the cost of this transaction to the British taxpayer.
    Mr. Barnes: There was serious congestion during the summer at Singapore, with consequent delay in the discharge of vessels. The handling capacity of the port, owing to labour difficulties and to war damage to the storage and clearance facilities, proved inadequate for the large amounts of military and commercial cargo entering the port for the rehabilitation of the area. Energetic measures were taken to relieve the congestion, by improving the clearance facilities and by restricting imports to the most essential cargoes. I am informed that the congestion of cargo on the wharves has been considerably reduced. Further improvement is expected from the rebuilding of transit
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    sheds. As regards the two vessels carrying coal to Singapore, these were chartered from the U.S. Government. The coal was purchased and shipped by the military authorities for civilian use in Malaya. On arrival at Singapore the coal was found to differ considerably from the original specification and was rejected by the local authorities as unsuitable. The Special Commissioner was pressed to dispose of this coal elsewhere in order to free the ships, and, after considerable difficulty, the greater part was sold to Batavia, where the two vessels have now discharged, the balance of the coal having been discharged at Singapore. The cost of the delay to the two ships is approximately £30,000.
    Sir P. Hannon: Do I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that these ships were chartered to carry coal dust, and that it was not really coal which went over the ocean at the expense of the British taxpayer? What has happened to these two ships, and where is the coal dust now?
    Mr. Barnes: I have stated the facts to the hon. Member. My position is to provide the shipping. If the hon. Member wants further information, he must put his questions elsewhere.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer is a complete travesty? Is he aware that the serious delay in shipping at Singapore is due to centralised control, that ships are arriving with empty cargo space and that pilferage of British goods at the expense of the British taxpayer is very serious? Will the right hon. Gentleman have further inquiries made, because it is stopping the vital export trade of this country?
    Mr. Barnes: As I explained to the hon. Member, the difficulties arise directly from the war, and steps were taken immediately to improve the discharge of cargoes.
    Sir P. Hannon: I do not want to embarrass the Minister, but will he give the House of Commons an undertaking that transactions of this kind, which indicate imbecility in the Administration, will not occur?

    Requisitioned Vessels
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Transport how many passenger-carrying vessels of over 2,000 tons are still requisitioned.
    Mr. Barnes: The number of passenger-carrying vessels of over 2,000 tons still requisitioned is 93, of which 73 are in service, and 20, including some of the largest vessels, are in course of reconversion and reconditioning prior to redelivery to owners.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of vessels is about to be released to the rightful owners?
    Mr. Barnes: I have just stated that an additional 20 are in process of reconversion for redelivery.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Can the Minister say when the remainder will be delivered?
    Sir Ronald Ross: Are there any vessels formerly employed between Great Britain and Northern Ireland among those vessels?
    Mr. Barnes: Not in this particular group, but there are some in the cross-channel service.
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement as to the Government's intentions regarding the return of ships and the control of shipping to the owners.
    Mr. Barnes: The Government's decision to release shipping from requisition was announced in December last and effect has been given to it. The requirements of trooping make it necessary to retain a number of passenger ships in this service, but a substantial proportion of such vessels has already been released for reconditioning. In order to ensure the maintenance of essential supplies, it is still necessary to control the employment of shipping by licence.
    Sir I. Fraser: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the sooner he can return these ships to people who understand their management, the better?
    Mr. Barnes: I have done that very ex-peditiously, and the whole of these arrangements are made in agreement with the trade and the industry itself.

    Priority Sea Passages
    Mr. Bowdenasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that in allocating priority sea passages the Sea Passage Priority Board are, in some cases, granting
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    a priority passage to the wife and not to the husband; that many of these applications for priority passages are on health and compassionate grounds, and that it is quite unfair to divide up families in this way; and if he will instruct the Board to consider applications from a family as a whole.
    Mr. Barnes: Applications for passages on health and compassionate grounds are considered from families as a whole as well as from individuals. Owing to the shortage of accommodation, only the strongest cases qualify for priority for the whole family on these grounds Where it is impossible to offer berths to the whole family, either the husband or wife is given a passage. If my hon. Friend will let me know of any case where the granting of priority to a part of a family has caused undue hardship, I shall be happy to reconsider it.

    Duty-Free Goods (Crews' Purchases)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that goods supplied duty-free for use on board some British ships are sold to the members of the crew at charges which include the duty, and that the prices are fixed at the discretion of the ship's master; if he will take steps to ensure that the duty is not charged to the crews under such circumstances and that the prices for cigarettes, matches, sweets, soap, etc., on all British-owned vessels will in future be controlled; and if he will arrange for a list of these prices to be posted in all shipping offices.
    Mr. Barnes: The arrangements for the provision and sale of tobacco, cigarettes, sweets, etc., are the responsibility of the owners or masters and have already been the subject of discussion by the National Maritime Board, on which the officers' and seamen's organisations, as well as shipowners, are fully represented. As a result, owners were asked to instruct masters that the prices to be charged to the crew should only include a reasonable margin over cost price to cover insurance, wastage, and a small profit. If my hon. Friend will furnish me with details of any excessive charges, I will arrange for inquiries to be made.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that on different ships different prices are charged for the same commodity?
    Mr. Barnes: It is very difficult to deal with the general problem. If my hon. Friend will submit any evidence I will make special inquiries.
    Mr. Janner: Has the Minister any opportunity at all of investigating these prices from time to time? Are they submitted to him? Is he aware that there is considerable agitation amongst crews in respect of the prices charged, particularly for tobacco and cigarettes?
    Mr. Barnes: As I have indicated in my reply, this is really a matter for the National Martime Board, of which the officers' and men's organisations are a part. If the matter is not resolved to their satisfaction views can always be conveyed to me.

    Refrigerator Ships (Use)
    Sir P. Hannonasked the Minister of Transport how many refrigerator ships are now employed in the repatriation of German war prisoners from this country to German ports; why those ships are so used instead of in the transport of food for which they are specially fitted; and when Government-controlled shipping will be restored to private management and direction.
    Mr. Barnes: The answer to the first part is none, Sir, and the second part does not arise. As far as the last part of the Question is concerned, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a similar Question asked by the hon. Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser).
    Sir P. Hannon: Would the Minister indicate to the House at what point of time in the near future the management of these ships will be given over to the private owners instead of being administered by his Department?
    Mr. Barnes: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is under a considerable misapprehension. In the main the management of ships is already in the hands of the present owners. The licence is reserved for special circumstances, as I indicated, in general agreement with the industry.

  RAILWAYS

    Potters Bar Station (Reconstruction)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport when it is proposed
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    to reconstruct Potters Bar L.N.E.R. station in accordance with the recommendation contained in the report on the train accident of 10th February, 1946, prepared by Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Alan Mount.
    Mr. Barnes: The Company inform me that a scheme is now being prepared to meet Sir Alan Mount's recommendation for the reconstruction of Potters Bar Station and that the necessary Parliamentary powers will be sought in the forthcoming Session.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the Minister give an assurance that the reconstruction of Potters Bar Station will be subject to the promise that he gave me many months ago, that the reconstruction of Twickenham Station would have priority—especially in view of the great importance of Twickenham?

    Goods Delivery, Ramsey (Embargo)
    Mr. David Rentonasked the Minister of Transport the reason for the embargo on deliveries of goods forwarded by rail from Leeds to Ramsey, Huntingdonshire; and how long it is intended that that embargo shall last.
    Mr. Barnes: The restriction was imposed by the London and North Eastern Railway to relieve congestion caused mainly by a shortage of locomotive power. The restriction will be removed as soon as the congestion has been cleared.
    Mr. Renton: Is the Minister aware that this embargo is holding up the supply of essential fittings for the housing programme in the Ramsey district and, bearing that in mind, would he give an undertaking that the restriction will be removed in, shall we say, a fortnight?
    Mr. Barnes: If the hon. Member has any special particulars of that kind and will furnish me with them, I will see what can be done to deal with them, but I doubt whether his statement is correct.

    Superannuitants (Representations)
    Mr. Burdenasked the Minister of Transport if he has now considered the representations made to him on behalf of railway superannuitants; and if he will state the action he proposes to take in the matter.
    Mr. Barnes: I have received the representations on this difficult problem and they are still under examination.

  LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BOARD

    Fares
    Mr. Piratinasked the Minister of Transport if he has considered the Report of the Charges Consultative Committee on proposed increases in L.P.T.B. fares; what action he proposes to take on such a report; and when it will be published.
    Mr. Barnes: I have received the Report and propose to make a statement at an early date.

    No. 11 Bus Service
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the delays that occur on the No. 11 omnibus route, due to the fact that these omnibuses seem to travel in convoy and to the resultant hold up at the check points; and if he will ask the L.P.T.B. to look into this matter and, if possible, arrange for a stricter schedule to be kept.
    Mr. Barnes: This service operates with a headway of two minutes over a relatively short route, which passes through a large number of congested traffic points, and it carries a large number of short-distance passengers. Some "bunching" of omnibuses is, therefore, inevitable, but the London Passenger Transport Board give close supervision to the operation of this service in order to maintain the scheduled interval as closely as possible.
    Commander Noble: Has the Minister brought this Question to the notice of the London Passenger Transport Board?
    Mr. Barnes: Yes. This is a longstanding difficulty. I have again asked the L.P.T.B. to make a special investigation into its possible improvement.

  GERMAN INVASION PLANS
  Sir Hugh Lucas-Toothasked the Prime Minister what actual attempts were made by the Germans to invade this country with land forces during the year 1940; and if he is prepared to make a statement about the circumstances lead-
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  ing up to all military units in the United Kingdom receiving a warning that invasion was impending on the evening of a date in September, 1940.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): As I promised the hon. and gallant Member for Stockport (Wing-Commander Hulbert) on 6th May, I have examined the possibility of making a statement about German plans for invading this country in 1940. I now hope to be able to make, early in the new Session, a statement covering both the German invasion plans and the events referred to in the second part of the Question.

  EX-SERVICE PERSONNEL (EMPLOYMENT)
  Mr. Christopher Shawcrossasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider introducing a scheme of national service under which men and women enlisting in the Armed Forces would be guaranteed permanent employment at the end of their military service in other services of the Crown or in public services, such as the Post Office, the fire service and air transport.
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that it would be practicable to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion as it stands. The needs of civilian Crown services cannot be forecast over the long periods involved in regular engagements. But for many years ex-regular members of the Forces have been given preference in recruitment to a number of civilian vacancies under the Crown, and measures to improve these opportunities are being actively examined. It has always been the practice for the fire service to include a proportion of ex-regulars, and this will no doubt continue, though it will be a matter for the local authorities. In the case of public boards, opportunities for ex-regulars must depend on arrangements which would have to be made by the boards themselves.

  GERMANY

    Imprisoned British Subjects
    Brigadier Mackesonasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, if he is aware that British subjects sentenced for offences in Germany may be kept in prison in Germany under German guards

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    and on rations of under 1,250 calories or which are, in any case, much lower than those given to convicts in His Majesty's prisons in the United Kingdom; and if he will give an assurance that British subjects sentenced to imprisonment in Germany are brought back at once to serve their sentences in the United Kingdom.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd): British subjects and other nationals of the United Nations are detained in a special wing of a prison which is staffed by properly trained German warders but with a British supervisory staff. United Nations prisoners receive an average ration of 1,811 calories a day, as compared with German normal consumer ration of 1,550 calories, and there are special rations for those in hospital. I appreciate that this scale is lower than that given to prisoners in this country, and this matter is under consideration. I am advised that legislation would be required to authorise the transfer of persons sentenced in Germany to prisons in the United Kingdom.
    Brigadier Mackeson: Would the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that this legislation will be introduced at an early date? Does he agree that it is extremely unsatisfactory that British prisoners should be under German guards in German prisons?
    Mr. Hynd: I cannot give any assurance as to the date when that legislation will be introduced, but it is our purpose that such legislation should be introduced. In regard to the circumstances referred to in the latter part of the supplementary question, I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the answer indicates that these men, whilst under direct domestic German warders, are under the supervision of British personnel.

    Potash (Production)
    Lieut.-Colonel Corbettasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how much potash is produced in the British zone of Germany; and how it is disposed of.
    Mr. J. Hynd: In July and August of this year, the total production of potash fertiliser amounted to 76,400 tons, all of which was retained in the British zone. For figures of production and allocation up to the end of June this year, I would
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    refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given to a Question by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Douglas Marshall) on 15th July last.

    Control Commission (Staff)
    Mr. Nigel Birchasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what proportion of the officers of the Control Commission for Germany are classed as talking fluent German.
    Mr. J. Hynd: No statistics are available. No German language test is applied to those appointed to the Commission (apart from interpreters) although in recruiting staff for the British element of the Control Commission the ability of applicants to speak German is taken into consideration. Many of the staff of the Commission possess or are acquiring knowledge of German, and fluent German speakers are available for posts where this is necessary.
    Mr. Birch: Does the hon. Gentleman think that the President of the Board of Trade would engage officials in this country without asking them if they knew English?
    Mr. Hynd: No, Sir.
    Mr. Birchasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what reduction in the staff of the Control Commission for Germany has resulted from the integration of the British zone with the United States zone.
    Mr. A. Edward Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what are the estimated reductions and adjustments achieved and anticipated, in the British Control Commission staff consequent upon the merging of the British and American zones in Germany.
    Mr. J. Hynd: Plans for the reduction of the staff of the British element of the Control Commission, particularly in the economic fields, are being prepared, and this will be assisted by the integration of the British and American zones. I am sorry it is not possible at this stage to give figures.
    Mr. Harris: Is it the case that arrangements are contemplated in the Russian zone that would enable still further reductions to be effected?
    Mr. Davies: May we not expect an appreciable reduction if there is further integration? Is not the Minister aware that there is criticism of our administration on the ground that much of the work is dual government, and could be done by the Germans themselves? Is he aware that the Estimates Committee said we should aim at getting quality rather than quantity?
    Mr. Hynd: I am, of course, aware of all these factors, which are amongst the reasons why these plans are being prepared for drastic reductions in staff.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: Is it not the fact that, apart from the integration, plans for a reduction in personnel were actually in hand in May of this year? Will the Minister say what has happened?
    Mr. Hynd: It is true that plans for the reduction of staff have been made before and have been carried out. We are now visualising still further reductions.
    Major Bramall: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind, in spite of the necessity to reduce staffs, the need to distinguish between the political and economic integration of the two zones, in view of the different political conceptions between ourselves and the other administrators of Germany?
    Major Bramallasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether in view of the importance of the development of a democratic trade union movement in Germany, he intends to appoint a person actively sympathetic to trade unions to a senior position in the Manpower Division of the Control Commission.
    Mr. J. Hynd: Yes, Sir.

    War Disability Pensions
    Mr. Birchasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster why German war disability pensions have been discontinued or reduced.
    Mr. J. Hynd: These pensions have now been assimilated into the normal system of social insurance pensions in Germany. They were abolished as military pensions by quadripartite decision, first, because their continuation involved the maintenance of military service records which, in the interest of total dispersal of the German Armed Forces, it was deemed desirable
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    to destroy; secondly, because it is inequitable that disabled Wehrmacht pensioners should receive greater benefits than other disabled persons; and thirdly, because benefits were on a scale that Germany could not in present conditions afford. The scale of benefits is subject to review, and consultations are now proceeding with the German Advisory Council in our zone.

    Director-General of Railways
    Major Bramallasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster why a man who had been a member of the Nazi Party since 1933 was permitted to fill the appointment of Director-General of Railways in the British zone of Germany.
    Ms. J. Hynd: I presume my hon. Friend is referring to Dr. Liebrand, who died in August. This man's record was investigated and his death forestalled his dismissal. I am having further inquiries made about his appointment, and will communicate with my hon. Friend later.
    Major Bramall: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I was not referring to Dr. Liebrand, but to Dr. Busch, who was appointed, in spite of the fact that he had been a member of the Nazi Party since 1933, to succeed Dr. Liebrand?
    Mr. Hynd: I must apologise, but the terms of the Question suggested that the individual in question was Dr. Liebrand. Dr. Busch, his successor, had not been a member of the Nazi Party since 1933, so far as our records suggest. The only information we have about Dr. Busch is that he applied for membership of the Party in 1938, but was refused, presumably on the ground that he was a fervent Catholic. Dr. Busch has, incidentally, been approved by the four occupying Powers for a senior post in the German Central Transport Department if and when that is established, and the records of Dr. Busch are at present under examination.
    Major Bramall: If the hon. Gentleman is given Dr. Busch's Party number will he look into the matter further?
    Mr. Hynd: We have already the number in question, but it is not substantiated that that number does, in fact, represent his membership of the Nazi Party, which is the point into which we are inquiring at the moment.

    Trade Union Property
    Major Bramallasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what arrangements have been made to return to the German trade unions the property stolen from them in 1933.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The occupying Powers have agreed that such property should be returned, where title or succession can be established. In the British zone claims for restitution of property by trade unions are being examined by a Claims Committee formed from the zonal trade union conference.

    Hansard (Postal Facilities)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether arrangements have now been made to enable HANSARD to be posted from this country to responsible political, religious and journalistic leaders in Germany and Austria.
    Mr. J. Hynd: As regards Germany, HANSARD comes within the scheme announced in the Press last week under which newspapers and periodicals may be ordered through publishers, newsagents and booksellers and posted by them to any individual in the British zone or British sector of Berlin. We are discussing with our Allies the extension of this scheme to the other three zones. It has been possible for individuals in this country to post newspapers and periodicals, including HANSARD, direct to persons in all four zones of Austria since 25th July.

    Buildings and Equipment (Demolitions)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will now give instructions that nothing of any value is to be blown up in the British zone and that any buildings or equipment which it is considered must be removed under the Potsdam Agreement shall in future be moved in an orderly fashion and not by dynamite.
    Mr. J. Hynd: In general we are already working on the lines suggested by my hon Friend. Demolitions required to conform to the Potsdam Agreement are carried out with explosives only when other methods are impracticable, e.g., in the case of pill boxes and flak towers and gun emplacements. Normal housebreaking methods
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    are used whenever possible and care is taken to preserve material suitable for later use.
    Mr. Stokes: If that is the case, why the idiotic blowing-up of the yard of Bloehm und Voss, in which 12,500 tons of useful steel were converted into twisted scrap which can now only be made useful by using coal, which we have not got in the zone?
    Mr. Hynd: The episode in question took place some time ago. It was carried out because it is not always either practical or economical to demolish by other means structures which can equally effectively, and more economically and speedily, be demolished by explosives. Since then, the blowing up or dismantling of a pile of scrap iron has been an economic question, but the policy which is in operation is the one to which I have referred.
    Mr. Stokes: Does my hon. Friend really suggest that converting into twisted scrap is the best way of making use of what was useful steel?
    Mr. Hynd: It is a question between making it into a pile of twisted scrap in a few minutes, or making it into a pile of dismantled scrap in a few months or years
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster why instructions have been given for the destruction of the deep-water wharves and quays at Kiel, and how it is proposed to maintain a population of nearly 300,000 persons in that district if no ocean-going vessels are in consequence able to dock there.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The deep-water wharves and quays in question are naval installations, the destruction of which is an essential measure in the disarmament of Germany to which we are committed by the Potsdam Agreement. Full consideration will be given to preserving at Keil any facilities which will be required for its peaceful trade. The dockyard facilities at Kiel were confined before the war almost entirely to the service of the German navy, cargo services being handled at Hamburg, Lubecke, Wilhelmshafen and other ports. The problem of finding alternative employment for workers displaced as a result of disarmament is one which is receiving the attention both of the Control Commission and German authorities responsible for reconstruction.
    Mr. Stokes: Can my hon. Friend assure the House that instructions have been given by his Department to cancel the orders which have already been issued for the destruction of all deep-water wharves which can accommodate any vessel of over 1,250 tons, which is only the size of a large fishing vessel?
    Mr. Hynd: If my hon. Friend is referring to Kiel, I cannot add anything to the answer that has been given. If the question refers to other ports, I would point out that we are not demolishing the quays and wharf facilities of other ports.
    Mr. Stokes: Am I to understand that wharves at Kiel, over and above what is sufficient to accommodate vessels of 1,250 tons, are being destroyed, and, if so, why?
    Mr. Hynd: I should like to nave notice of the exact terms of that question before I give an answer.
    Sir R. Ross: Is it not important that the principal German naval base should be completely destroyed?
    Mr. Hynd: Yes, for all naval purposes.

    British Administration, Hamburg (Accommodation)
    Mr. A. Edward Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what arrangements have recently been made to concentrate the administration of British military and civilian government in Hamburg; and what effect this is having on the housing situation in that city.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The zonal executive offices of the Control Commission for Germany are at the moment dispersed in a number of separate small towns. This position is unsatisfactory and wasteful. The move to Hamburg has therefore been decided upon as the only practicable way of achieving a concentration of staff in the zone with consequent economy and increased efficiency. The move will not be complete until the spring or early summer of 1948, and requisitioning of existing properties will not in the main be necessary before the autumn of 1947, by which time it is anticipated that the present building plans, for which special allocations of building manpower and materials have been made, will have relieved the housing shortage.
    Mr. Davies: In view of the inadequate housing accommodation in Hamburg consequent upon the good work of the R.A.F., the conditions under which many of the people are living, and the impending fusion with other zones in Germany, which may alter our administration, could not this project be slowed down?
    Mr. Hynd: As I have pointed out, the project will not be completed until the spring of 1948. There will be no requisitioning for the purposes of the project until the autumn of 1947, and in the meantime there will have been considerable changes in the staffing arrangements of the zone, and it is impossible to say precisely what the position will be then. I hardly think that we can plan for any slowing down.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask my hon. Friend whether the report in the "Daily Herald" that the project has been suspended is incorrect?
    Mr. Hynd: As I have stated, the project is still on, and it is intended that, according to present assessment of staff requirements and so on, it shall be ready by the spring of 1948.
    Mr. Molson: Will the Chancellor give an assurance that there will be no requisitioning of buildings for this purpose, and that anything required for British staffs will be provided by new buildings?
    Mr. Hynd: I am afraid I cannot give that assurance, because the plan which has been drawn up has been drawn up very carefully in conjunction with the German authorities in order to provide for the most practical disposition of the Control buildings and of the German residential quarters. Simply to say that one particular house should be left, in a whole block occupied by the Control Commission, would not be practicable.
    Mr. Davies: Although the project is not going forward for some time, are not all the facilities being occupied by military personnel and their families at the moment, and is it a fact that 36,000 people will have to be evacuated or changed about in order to accommodate some 5,000 of our civilian government and military personnel?
    Mr. Hynd: The first part of the supplementary question is not accurate, and to the second part of the question, as to the

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    number who would have to be evacuated by the end of 1947 or the spring of 1948, I obviously could not give an accurate answer at this stage.
    Mr. Stokes: In view of the ambiguity of the situation, I wish to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Electoral System
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what electoral system is being used in the British zone in Germany, in view of the fact that in the recent elections an average of roughly 235 votes was sufficient to return an independent candidate, whereas 320 were required for a Christian Democrat, 430 for a Social Democrat and 3,400 for a Communist.
    Mr. J. Hynd: The electoral system used is based on the principle of direct election as in the United Kingdom, with varying modifications for the Gemeinde and Kreis elections. As my hon. Friend will be aware, direct election does not give the same mathematical results as election by proportional representation methods. In the recent Gemeinde elections, electoral areas varied between 200 and 20,000 voters; and in the smaller parishes, where party influence is not yet greatly developed, many candidates—especially independents—were returned unopposed. In the Kreis elections, which took place yesterday, and where parochial and personal issues were less predominant, party alignments will no doubt have been more clearly marked, and the number of seats gained by the respective contestants should show a closer relationship to the total number of votes cast in their favour.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Do I understand my hon. Friend to say that this electoral system is a straight, direct election, and is there not also an admixture of the transference of votes in the proportional system? If it is a straight, direct electoral system, does it not work very unfairly where there are at least four or five parties?
    Mr. Hynd: The electoral system was based on the principle of the direct election, with several different modifications in the case of the Gemeinde and Kreis elections, where it is provided that a small proportion of seats in each case is allotted to a pool—about 25 per cent. in each case
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    —to which the balance of votes is transferred, and those three or four seats are allocated to particular parties in relation to those votes.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Have votes been transferred from one independent to another as if they were members of the same party, and are the results not a travesty of the will of the German people? Would it not be far better to introduce straight proportional representation?
    Mr. Hynd: Far from being a travesty of the will of the German people, the scheme was worked out by the advisory council representing all three political parties and other German representatives.
    Mr. McAllister: Would he say how many so-called "independents" were actually members of the Nazi Party?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Oliver Stanley: May I ask the Leader of the House if he has any statement to make on Business?
Mr. H. Morrison: In the event of a message being received from another place today relating to the Roosevelt Memorial Bill, we hope the House will agree to consider the Motion to set up a Joint Committee as first Order tomorrow before we proceed with the Business already announced for that day.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. De la Bère: May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker? There are 25 Questions on the Order Paper addressed to the Minister of Agriculture, not one of which has been reached—the same thing very nearly happened last week—owing to the great deal of detail in Questions relating to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. May I respectfully ask for your assistance in future, in view of the great importance of food in the country, and the great interest which is taken in this subject in this honourable House?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member can rest assured that he will always have my sympathy and assistance in getting through as many Questions as possible on the Order Paper.
Sir I. Fraser: Could not Questions to the Minister of Agriculture some days be put first on the Order Paper?
Mr. Speaker: I do not arrange these things. They are done through the usual channels.
Mr. Stanley: May I be allowed to appeal to the Leader of the House on this question? As he knows, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is put into a privileged position every day of the week—his Questions are reached every single day that Parliament meets. Would it not be better that he should take his turn with the other Ministers, and so give us a chance to get to these other very important Questions?
Mr. H. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman is on a fair point. We are giving consideration to the very point he has raised with a view to a change in the new Session. My hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has no objections.

PERSONAL STATEMENT
The Minister of Supply (Mr. John Wilmot): I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me an opportunity of making a statement, which I had intended
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to make when replying to a Question, which was placed on the Order Paper last week, but which has, unfortunately, been deferred. The Question concerned a matter which was the subject of a paragraph in the "Financial Times," of last Monday, to the effect that I had paid from public funds the travelling and entertainment expenses of a large party of journalists on the occasion of my recent visit to Newcastle. There is not a word of truth in this. The facts are that, as I was to be in the North of England for a few days during the Recess, I accepted the invitation of a well-known firm to open their new housing fitments factory on the development area estate at Team Valley, Gateshead, Journalists were the guests of the firm. Certainly no part of their expenses was borne by public funds.
Mr. Beswick rose—
Mr. Speaker: I think that I should point out that on a personal statement contentious matters cannot be raised.
Mr. Tolley: May I ask the Minister to give the House the name of the paper concerned?
Hon. Members: The "Financial Times."

FAIR WAGES
Mr. Speaker: Before I call on the Minister of Labour, to move the Motion which stands on the Order Paper in his name, I think it would be well, seeing that we have not had many Motions of this kind in this Parliament, to remind hon. Members that we are very limited by the terms of the Motion. This Motion deals with the Fair Wages Clause in Government contracts, and therefore anything outside a Government contract is out of Order in this Debate. That, I am afraid, removes the first Amendment which has been put down on the Order Paper, because it goes into the question of work other than work under Government contracts. I propose to call the Minister of Labour so that the House will have a general Debate, and will then proceed to call the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss).
3.35 p.m.
The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I beg to move,
"That, in the opinion of this House, the Fair Wages Clauses in Government Contracts should be so amended as to provide as follows:—
1.—(a) The contractor shall pay rates of wages and observe hours and conditions of labour not less favourable than those established for the trade or industry in the district where the work is carried out by machinery of negotiation or arbitration to which the parties are organisations of employers and trade unions representative respectively of substantial proportions of the employers and workers engaged in the trade or industry in the district.
(b) In the absence of any rates of wages, hours or conditions of labour so established the contractor shall pay rates of wages and observe hours and conditions of labour which are not less favourable than the general level of wages, hours and conditions observed by other employers whose general circumstances in the trade or industry in which the contractor is engaged are similar.
2. The contractor shall in respect of all persons employed by him (whether in execution of the contract or otherwise) in every factory, workshop or place occupied or used by him for the execution of the contract comply with the general conditions required by this Resolution. Before a contractor is placed upon a department's list of firms to be invited to tender, the department shall obtain from him an assurance that to the best of his knowledge and belief he has complied with the general conditions required by this Resolution for at least the previous three months.
3. In the event of any question arising as to whether the requirements of this Resolution
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are being observed, the question shall, if not otherwise disposed of, be referred by the Minister of Labour and National Service to an independent tribunal for decision.
4. The contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of trade unions.
5. The contractor shall at all times during the continuance of a contract display, for the information of his workpeople, in every factory, workshop or place occupied or used by him for the execution of the contract a copy of this Resolution.
6. The contractor shall be responsible for the observance of this Resolution by subcontractors employed in the execution of the contract, and shall if required notify the department of the names and addresses of all such sub-contractors."
The Fair Wages Resolution has been in operation in one form or another for over 50 years. The first Resolution was introduced in 1891 by the then Mr. Sydney Buxton. I should like to draw the attention of the House to one or two things which he said on that occasion and which are equally true today. He stated:
"The Government is far the greatest 'letter-out' of contracts in the country, and Government contracts are the most popular for three reasons. In the first place, the contractor makes no bad debts; secondly, he makes quick returns, and, thirdly, a Government contract forms a good advertisement. The consequence is that there is great competition, and tenders are cut down very much at the expense of the labour market Such a state of things is unfair to the good employers, hard on the good workman, and injurious to the community. The fair employer is placed at a very great disadvantage as compared with the unfair."
That was said in 1891, and it could be said today, but certainly not to anything like the same degree. I would now like to quote the words of the First Commissioner of Works of that period who is reported to have said:
"We must not interfere with the full play of the labour market. It will not do for the State in any way to fix the rate of wages."
That holds true today, as it held true 55 years ago. Wages are open to negotiations between employers and workers, and it has proved quite satisfactory. It must be remembered that Mr. Buxton was an Opposition Member and that the Government of the day was a Conservative Government. The then First Commissioner of Works secured the unanimous adoption by the House at that time of the following Resolution:
"It is the duty of the Government in all Government contracts to make provision against the evils recently disclosed before the Sweating Committee, to insert such conditions

621
as may prevent the abuse arising from subletting and to make every effort to secure the payment of such wages as are generally accepted as current in each trade for competent workmen."
Unfortunately, that Resolution related to wages and said nothing about hours and working conditions. Under these contracts, so long as the employer showed he had paid wages generally acceptable in the trade, he could work a great number of hours and avoid the regulating conditions. This Resolution proved inadequate, and did not meet the situation. The Government had to give further consideration to it in view of the numerous complaints. In 1907, the Treasury set up a commission to consider the position. They did not recommend any amendment of the wording of the Resolution in so far as it affected fair wages, but made a number of recommendations, the effect of which was to give greater publicity to the requirements under the Resolution. There was again agitation and discontent, and it is interesting to note that the discontent came not only from the workers, but also from the employers. Later I may have an opportunity to give the House some of my experiences in my industry of the results of failure to observe the Fair Wages Clause.
The Clause which exists today was introduced in 1909. It is interesting to note that it was introduced by Mr. Sydney Buxton, then a Member of the Government, and that in putting the Resolution forward he used the same words as those used in 1891. He said:
"I do not wish to put the claim too high, but I would say that it has benefited the workmen without injuring the employers; it has encouraged the good employers and opened Government work to the best class of workmen."
He emphasised, a little later, that
"no one proposed that the Government should fix the rate of wages. All that is asked is that the Government should accept as fair wages those rates which prevail in any particular trade: the rate which has been fixed by negotiation by employers and workmen."
So we get away from the idea of paying wages generally accepted as fair, and move forward to the stage where they are fixed by negotiation. That recommendation has proved of the greatest value to our country. The fact that it encouraged the fixing of wages by negotiation has helped to bring about, in Britain, industrial relations between organisations of employers and organisations of their
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workers which have put us in the forefront of any country in the world in the matter of industrial relationship. I admit that they might be even better, but, taking them by and large, there is no country which is able to adjust these important matters with the same facility, good spirit and the same decision to adhere to the agreements which have been made.
Following the passing of the 1909 Resolution, the Treasury appointed an Advisory Committee on the Fair Wages Clauses of Government contracts, and officers of the Contracting Departments were members of that Committee. They subsequently recommended that common form of Clause should be put in all Government contracts which embodied the Fair Wages Clause. They also recommended that in a case of contracts not entered into by a Government Department, but, nevertheless, involving the expenditure of public money, or some other consideration granted by a Government Department, the Department concerned should require the insertion in such contracts of Fair Wages Clauses, as recommended, with such modification as might be necessary. This was an indication that Parliament was anxious that the Government, and, therefore the country should not be charged with imposing or permitting conditions to be imposed that were anything like old conditions. Some of us who remember the conditions under which Government contracts were carried out in early days, were happy to think that this assisted in removing those conditions, and bringing about a better standard of Government work.
The Fair Wages Resolution, as Mr. Speaker has just pointed out to the House, is concerned only with Government contracts but in course of time its principle has become applied much more widely. Local authorities generally have adopted the principle; in fact, they have sometimes much improved on the principle. It has also been embodied in many Acts of Parliament which provide assistance to industries or public authorities by way of grants, loans or subsidies. Examples are Acts dealing with sugar, road traffic, London passenger transport, and air navigation. In spite of its improvement, however, and the wider application of publicity given to it, between 1909 and 1939 complaints were still prevalent about the unfair practices of Government contractors. There was a

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time, within my own recollection in the printing industry, when the fact that a firm was a Government contractor meant that they were paying unfair wages. It was not true of all, but many paying fair wages lost contracts to firms not paying fair wages, with the result that the good firms often cut down their own wages to get their contracts back. So, the reputation of the employer and the standard of life of the worker was injured.
In 1937, following representations as to the need for amendment of the 1909 Resolution in the light of changed circumstances the then Government, a Conservative Government, decided to appoint a Committee to investigate the matter. I would like to point out that the efforts made to secure recognition of the Fair Wages Clause has had the help of all the great Parties of the State, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party and, today, it will have the help of another great Party—the Labour Party. This has never been a party question. Speaking from my own experience of just a few years as a trade union officer, I recognise the great value of the Fair Wages Clause. It has had its defects, but it has helped to raise the standard of industry in general. The Committee which was set up in 1937 had not completed their work when the war broke out. The Government then had something else on their hands, a fight with somebody else. The nation won that fight, and I am hoping that we shall win the fight today, if there is to be a fight, on this question. But enough had been done in that inquiry to enable the Coalition Government to reach agreement with the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress on the draft of a new Resolution. There was a tripartite form of industrial negotiation; the three parties got together, and reached agreement on the terms of the Resolution, and following that understanding, I am asking the House to endorse the Resolution today. The terms of the Resolution are set out in the White Paper of 1942, which opens by saying:
"It has long been recognised that the existing Fair Wages Resolution of the House of Commons, which was passed in 1909, is not entirely appropriate in the changed circumstances of the present day, and the question of a new Resolution has been under consideration for some time. As a result of discussions between the British Employers' Confederation, Trades Union Congress and the Government, agreement has been reached on the draft of a new Resolution for submission in due
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course to the House of Commons for its approval."
I do not want to argue that simply because agreement was reached, this House is bound to accept it, because the House is supreme and has the right to amend it if, by a majority, the House thinks fit to do so. On the other hand, it is an agreement which was reached and which the Coalition Government agreed with the two great industrial organisations, should be recommended to the House for approval. I do not think that the need for the new Resolution will be questioned. Between 1909 and 1942 the principle of collective bargaining and industrial agreement has grown to such an extent that they are now common practice in this country.
I wish briefly to refer to some of the changes that are suggested by the Command Paper. The House will notice that paragraph 1 (a) of the new Resolution provides as follows:
"The contractor shall pay rates of wages and observe hours and conditions of labour not less favourable than those established for the trade or industry…by machinery of negotiation or arbitration."
Let us compare that with the old Clause:
"The contractor shall pay rates of wages and observe hours of labour not less favourable than those commonly recognised by employers and trade societies."
The new paragraph asks for the recognition of wages established by the machinery of negotiation or arbitration, and not those commonly recognised. There were many loopholes under the latter system. I have seen many an employer dodge through one of those loopholes, and unfortunately he has not been hindered by the officers of the contracting departments, who, at that time, were the persons to whom complaints had to be made.
I have known cases where an employer would argue that, although he was paying 1s. or 2s. less per week to the person performing the work, he was providing that person with a cup of tea in the afternoon, paying him when he was away sick for more than three days, etc., and, by adding all these things up, he argued that, in the main, he was paying not less than the wages commonly recognised in the industry. There was another way in which there was evasion of the Clause, which was not at all uncommon when a firm wanted to obtain a Government contract.

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I am speaking from my own experience; I would not wish to name the firm, but it is a firm which, from that time onwards and previously, was in very high repute in the printing industry. The employer sent for me, and told me that he could not continue to pay to all the full wages paid to those employed on Government contracts because of the cut in the price of Government contracts, and, therefore, he had to cut the wages of those in the machine room, although he continued to pay the trade union rates to the people feeding the machines. He was told very quickly, in a friendly way, to put the matter right. That is the kind of case which, as my trade union colleagues could tell the House, was not uncommon. The contractor would get the job, pay the rates of wages to those working on the contract, and push them down to lower wages afterwards. The new Fair Wages Clause, I hope, will help to prevent that from being done.
Paragraph 2 makes a very important, new provision in this respect because it says:
"the contractor shall in respect of all persons employed by him (whether in execution of the contract or otherwise) in every factory, workshop, or place occupied or used by him for the execution of the contract comply with the general conditions required by this Resolution."
and that he shall give an assurance that
"to the best of his knowledge and belief he has complied with the general conditions required by this Resolution for at least the previous three months."
That means that the firm must satisfy the contracting department of the Government that they had in fact paid proper rates of wages before they got the contract; whereas in the past many of them would get the contract, pay the proper rates of wages while the contract was running, and cut down wages after the work was finished. These are very important changes. They are important from the point of view of another part of the Clause to which I shall refer.
Many firms proclaimed themselves to be anti-unionists, and would not permit unionists to work in their shops. They dismissed men and women because they happened to be members of a trade union They were desirous of doing that not only because they wanted to avoid paying the proper rates of wages, but because they
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knew that trade unionists in a shop were quick to report back to their union and to the Government if the conditions of the contract were not observed; and the employment of non-unionists prevented them from being brought to book in this way.
Paragraph 3 of the Motion provides for the settlement of any question arising out of non-compliance with the terms of the agreement by reference by the Minister of Labour to an independent tribunal for decision. Previously, any question that arose, for example, in the printing industry, would be taken up through the Stationery Office, usually with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, or in any other industry, by the Government Department handling the contract. It is now proposed that this should be dealt with by the Minister of Labour, whose aim is to get agreement, and failing that, refer the matter to some form of arbitration, such as those already existing, to ascertain the facts and ensure that the matter shall be put right.
Paragraph 4 provides that the contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of trade unions. Trade union recognition is one way of ensuring that the terms of the contract are observed, and of bringing complaints if they are not observed. I shall indicate that trade union recognition has been of advantage to this country. It has not injured our industry. It has been of great assistance to the workers concerned, and it is the basis of future prosperity by improvement in production and enabling our country to hold its own in the markets of the world. It is based upon frank and full recognition of the rights of the trade unions to be partners in industrial matters.
Paragraph 5 is a new provision, and it follows the practice observed under the Factory Acts. A copy of the Fair Wages Resolution must be posted up in every factory. I can remember the time when one could only find the Factory Acts posted up in a factory by looking behind a back door in the dirtiest part of the building. The firms who played the game, placed these notices where they could readily be seen by everyone. This is a proposal that the Fair Wages Resolution shall be posted in prominent places in factories carrying out Government contracts.

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Paragraph 6 is merely a repetition of what is in fact today an existing principle. The new Resolution is welcomed by all good employers. The British Employers Confederation is a very powerful body which represents practically the whole of our industry. It is a body with whom, together with the T.U.C., it is possible to negotiate under the best terms of good relationship. They welcome this new Resolution. They realise that unless they can secure protection of wages, working hours, and, what is even more important, working conditions, which they have established by agreement with the trade unions, those conditions will be damaged, and their own desire and intention to maintain them will be injured if Government contractors can get away with practices which, in some cases, they are still getting away with.
During the war, by means of a joint consultative committee, the British Employers Confederation, on the one hand, and the T.U.C., on the other, played a most important part, both in advising the Government on major questions of importance on matters of common interest to employers and workers, and also on building up and maintaining the whole system of collective bargaining on which the industrial relations of this country are based. I have seen for myself, in the last few weeks, the industrial relationship in another great country. I do not wish to comment on what is happening there, but I can say without any reflection or criticism of their set-up, that I am satisfied—and I say this with some little experience of industrial activity—that in no other great industrial country is there the same good will between employers' and workers' organisations, industrial organisations jointly—employers and workers—and the Government as exists in this country, where there is real help by the Government to assist these bodies to come to an understanding, without any attempt to impose upon them anything which they cannot accept, or to restrict them in any way.
I am proud, as a Member of this House, of the relationship between industry and the Government, employers and workers, as compared with what I have seen, not for the first time, but in many visits, to that country, and with an intimate knowledge of their set-up and their system and methods of organisation. The joint
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association in this country of those two bodies, the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress has been, and will continue to be, of incalculable value to industry and to the nation, particularly in the transitional period of reconversion. Collective bargaining depends upon a recognition by each side of the responsibilities which it carries and of the authority of the other. It is based on a mutual confidence and respect, a confidence in the ability of the other to secure the due observance of agreements, and respect for the views which it represents. In introducing this Motion, the Government are fulfilling a pledge given by the Coalition Government, submitted to Parliament in 1942, and backed by both sides of industry. That pledge is set out in the White Paper in these terms:
"The Government however accept the view of the Trades Union Congress General Council and the British Employers' Confederation that a statement should be made now of the intention to submit to Parliament at the end of the war a new Resolution which will be in the form set out in the Appendix unless any Amendments are mutually agreed in the meantime."
That was in 1942. It is now 1946. Four years have gone by, and in those four years both sides knew that when the opportune time came the House would be asked to endorse the agreement reached between the Government and industry. There have been no suggestions for amendments. Perhaps it is not quite correct to say that. No definite proposals have been put forward by either party for an amendment. There have been discussions and some suggestions that some words might be altered or some phrases put in a different way. The Joint Consultative Committee is a body of seven workers and seven employers, which was the main Consultative Committee to the Ministry of Labour all through the war. They rendered services the value of which can never really be estimated by the country. The story of that Consultative Committee ought to be told some day. Those 14 men, representing both sides of industry, helped the Government to put over things that would otherwise have been unpopular; they helped industry to do things which otherwise would not have been accepted; and they took responsibilities which many of us would have hesitated to take except in the dire needs of the country. That Consultative Committee have had a chance fairly recently

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again to examine these proposals. There were one or two things said about the interpretation of some word or other, consideration as to whether some word could be changed, but in the end it was decided to stand by the bargain made between both sides of industry and with the Government and to ask the House to accept this Motion as submitted, without Amendment. In that spirit I ask the House to accept the Motion. I have tried not to be controversial, but to be as factual as I could in submitting the matter to the House, but the fact is, as was stated by Mr. Sydney Buxton in the early days:
"A Government contract is a valuable thing for any firm. It does give them quick returns. There are no bad debts if anybody is owed money by the Government, and the Government contract does form a good advertisement"
Any hon. Member who has watched these things will have noticed that any firm which has Government work advertises on its notehead or its workshops, "Contractors to His Majesty's Government." It is a good advertisement. [An HON. MEMBER: "Was."] It still is. It could not have been so good in the old days, otherwise all these Resolutions would not have been passed; and it could not have been quite so good in 1937, otherwise the Conservative Government would not have suggested a court of inquiry to investigate it. This Motion is a piece of collective bargaining, such as we are told is the right thing to do in the Trade Union movement. An agreement has been reached between the parties. When in the Trade Union movement we enter into negotiations with employers and secure terms which we take back to our members, it is quite frequently easier to secure terms from the employers than it is to get the members of the Trade Unions to accept those terms when they are taken back to them. It is the duty of those who go back to say, "We have undertaken to recommend this to you for your acceptance; and unless you can show really good cause why it should not be accepted, we ask you to carry out the undertaking we have given on your behalf."
This is something that emerged from the Coalition Government. I was not a Member of the Government at that time, but I was a Member of the House during that period, and among the many good things that came out of the Coalition Government, I think this is one of the
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good things. I hope the House will adopt this Motion, in the spirit of the pledge that was given in the White Paper, without Amendment, because the parties have not desired any amendment. We shall then be able to start off again with a new Fair Wages Clause which certainly is not perfect, but which is better than those we have had before, and it may last a few years before we need to bring it up again.
4.17 p.m.
Mr. Harold Macmillan: The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour is to be congratulated on the manner and spirit in which he has presented this Motion to the House. I think that, broadly, the Motion is in conformity with the general wish of the House, and represents the last stage of a very long tradition of plans and Clauses of this kind.
I think that perhaps you, Mr. Speaker, will allow me for a moment to digress and to make some kind of formal welcome to the right hon. Gentleman on his return to the House and the country after his long absence We who live in the first period of the Socialist Utopia, and find it necessary to stay in this country, cannot help sometimes being rather amused at the extraordinary anxiety of the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to get out of it on every possible occasion. Whether on private business or amusement, whether at private or public expense, whether on the business of their own Departments or of some other Department they seem to flit away from these Islands with the most extraordinary pertinacity. [Interruption.] I did it in the nature of my own office. If I may be allowed to continue, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman because, although his absence was prolonged, it was on the service, in a kind of detached way, of his own Department. What was amazing was the number he took away with him. This movement was almost on a patriarchal scale. We felt alarmed lest it might not be a matter of consultation but almost of colonisation. However, we are happy to see him back. During his absence, one or two things have happened—some of them regarding the trade of which he spoke to us today, of which he has so long a knowledge, and of which he is so justly proud. We had a difficulty which he was able—I think the expression is—to avoid, if

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not evade, in dealing with that problem. The period during which the printing trade was working at halfcock did not have any serious effect, except upon the Government themselves, because now that about 95 per cent. of the printing trade, other than newspapers, is engaged on printing forms, when it refuses to work overtime it does not cause any grave anxiety to hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House or indeed anywhere.
We welcome this Motion. [Interruption.] There is no harm in a little chaffing in the House before we get down to real business. As the right hon. Gentleman has reminded us, this Motion has a very old and respectable origin. He went back to Mr. Sydney Buxton's words in 1891 when that gentleman moved a similar Motion, and he referred also to the period when, I think, the Resolution was first voted and carried by a Government in the Debate of 1909 in the time of Mr. Asquith's Government. That is a long time ago and that is its very respectable origin. At that time my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was, I believe, President of the Board of Trade.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: He was a Liberal then.
Mr. Macmillan: I think most of the hon. Gentlemen opposite were Liberals then, except those who are now peers. Speaking in that Debate—although perhaps it might be more relevant to the later stages of the present discussion—Mr. Buxton, whose speech I have also looked up, made some very interesting and admirable observations. One of them was as follows:
"When the late Liberal Government was in power I myself, on their behalf, gave the undertaking that an employer should not make it a condition of employment that he will only employ non-unionists. That is not a fair position for any Government contractor to take up. I am prepared to repeat for the present Government the pledge I gave to the late Liberal Government in advance."
So, even then there was some controversy about the terms of the Resolution but I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we have made very good progress. There are some points to which we shall come at a later stage in the Debate but under the broad principle of the Fair Wages Clause, in one form or another, it has
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been for nearly 40 years now the established law of the land that the Government, in placing their contracts, should conform to the best established traditions of private industry. The Government can never be the best employers; they are always bad employers, and I will tell the House why. Because in industry one has always to be able to do something that is outside the regulations, and the Government can never do that. Hon. Members know how much of our time we spend, whatever Government is in power, in trying to deal with the cases of those of our constituents who either just come into, or are just ruled out of, getting some benefit or other, because of Government regulations. A Government, of whatever category, in the national interest and as part of its duties, has to enforce precisely and correctly the regulations of an Act of Parliament under which it functions, but of course private industry can always do that little bit extra. The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that the best private firms in this country—in fact I would say the vast majority—make concessions and do many things for the workmen in their employ which could not possibly be done in a highly organised system like the Government service which is ruled by precise and accurate regulations. That is only common sense. Therefore, I say the Government can never be the best employers. But in placing their buying power—and this is the story behind this Resolution—they should see that they do so only with the best employers and that they do not use their contracting power to do down the better employer and to get better prices from the bad employer.
The story behind this Clause is interesting and, today, almost incredible, because there was a time when the Treasury forced so stringent an economy upon Departments that it was the Departments which were seeking always to find the little undercutting employer as a contractor. It was not the fault of the great contractors, or of the mass of industry, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would agree. It was the Treasury Bench, the people inside the Treasury, who were always scraping to see whether they could obtain some small advantage by placing their contracts at some slightly lower price with second or third rate contractors. Therefore this Clause was the protector, certainly of the standard of living of the

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workers, but also of the standards of competence and honour of industry as a whole. Now, of course, it seems incredible to us since, as always happens during war and the aftermath of war, that battle no longer rages. As I understand it, the object of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues in other Departments is to place their contracts not at the lowest possible prices but at the highest possible prices, and to sec that subsidies and prices rise to such a vast extent that nothing will ever keep them down. For the moment, therefore, this Clause is not very important, but the time may come when the bubble is broken, when we shall have some new economy drive—originating, no doubt, from the Bench on which the right hon. Gentleman sits since that is the usual tradition—with the Treasury trying to cut down the expenditure of Departments by forcing them to take contracts brought down somehow or another to the lowest possible figure. When that happens this Motion which the right hon. Gentleman has moved today will no doubt be, as it was intended to be by those who framed it 40 years ago, once again the great protection of the standard of life of the mass of the wage earning classes and of the long built up traditions of cooperation between industry, both from the employing and from the working side, to which the right hon. Gentleman has paid such a generous tribute.
There are, as I say, certain points which will arise at a later stage. The right hon. Gentleman reminded us, with the generosity which we are accustomed to expect from him, that this particular new form of the Clause comes from the Government White Paper of 1942. Like many other good things which have come to fruition in this Parliament, it dates from the great Coalition Government, like the Beveridge Scheme, family allowances, the Industrial Accidents Act, and the great education advance. It is interesting to think of that. In 1942 there were other matters upon our minds and upon the minds of the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. Not all of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues; some were only concerned to subvert and bring down the Government and do everything they could to damage the interests of this country. But most of us were thinking how we could, somehow or other, by the greatest possible exertion of our joint
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united effort, survive the war and take the defensive to push back the enemy and see before us, after perhaps three, four, five, six or even more years, final victory. Yet in that very year, under I think Sir Kingsley Wood, who was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the co-ordinating Department responsible for these affairs, this White Paper was drawn up. General agreement was reached within that Government and, as the right hon. Gentleman has told us, within the various interested parties, and I think it is a great tribute to this nation that at such a time, and under such conditions, thought could have been given to prepare for this day, four years later when, the right hon. Gentleman—and I envy him while at the same time I admire him and offer him all good will—has the opportunity of introducing this Measure today.
In recommending it to the House he has paid a most excellent tribute to the industrial life that we have hammered out, somehow or another, in our traditional British way. He told us, in phrases which will certainly be remembered, how far ahead we stand, and I think we are right in claiming that we are ahead of other countries in the world in the agreeable methods we have adopted and adapted for the working of our industrial relations. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that we are far ahead in this country of any other country in the world, because we have reached this system of partnership in industry. After their long struggle, the trade unions are recognised as partners in industry. I would like to insist upon the right hon. Gentleman's word "partner," not "servant" and not "master." In well-chosen, indeed moving, phrases the right hon. Gentleman, who has been for long associated with the industry with which I have some slight connection, spoke of those happy relationships, of this great body of tradition, of case law and practice, which have been built up on the two sides of industry. I could not help contrasting what he said with some of the phrases which have put the right hon. Gentleman and his friends where they are now. That is not the kind of thing they say on the street corners and at violent election meetings. I observed when he used those well-balanced and sensible phrases that there was very little support from hon. Members behind him.

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I welcome in broad terms this charter. True, it is 40 years old and it does not go very much further. I would like to add more things to it. Still, for what it is, and in its new form, although it does not move us very much further, it carries on a tradition. It puts it forward in new language, agreed language, which had its origin in the very worst period of the war. For my part, I and my Friends welcome—
Mr. Shurmer: Wartime is the only time when the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends promise anything.
Mr. Macmillan: The difference is that we perform our promises, and hon. Gentlemen opposite do not. I was saying that I and my Friends welcome both the Motion and the courteous and inspired terms in which the right hon. Gentleman moved it.
4.23 p.m.
Mr. Piratin: First, let me say how surprised I am to be called on to speak immediately after the spokesman of the Opposition. I should like to make some comments on the speech of the Minister. It was right that the right hon. Gentleman, in moving the Motion, should indicate that it was initiated in 1942 in the days of the Coalition Government. It is also right that those who oppose the Government should understand that the Coalition Government came about, not by their desire but by the desire of the common people at that period. The Labour Party took its place in the Government in 1940, and the Coalition Government of 1942, which took the initial steps in this matter, was not there by any desire of the Conservative Party, which backed Mr. Chamberlain to the very end. It was there by the desire of members of this side of the House.
Secondly, when the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) spoke of partnership in industry, he did not use that expression in the same sense as did the Minister of Labour. I did not underestimate the expression used by the Minister of Labour. For many years, as the Minister pointed out, it has been a paying proposition for contractors to work for Government Departments, because they have had a guarantee of constant work, very often lasting for a long
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time. That was very important from the point of view of production. An instance which occurred to my mind, was connected with the report we had a few months ago relating to a firm on the Great West Road, London. That firm was enabled to make enormous profits as a result of having Government contracts. They were able to turn out goods of consistently high quality and to increase productivity. Therefore, the existence of that partnership is valuable to a contracting firm in those circumstances.
What partnership exists, however, between the hotel proprietors, say, at the Savoy and the Carlton, and their employees? There is no partnership there, because, in the opinion of the hotel proprietors, it would not pay them. The owners of industry, whether of hotels or engineering concerns, are prepared to accept partnership with the workers when they think it pays them. Let us understand that fact. I do not wish to follow the right hon. Gentleman opposite in a number of digressions which he made, for instance, about the touring of Ministers all over the world, but I would like to hear what improvements he would like to make in the Motion. Hon. Members on this side of the House have put down Amendments aimed at improving the Motion. I gave very careful attention to what the Minister said. I recognise that agreement has been reached between employers' and workers' organisations. Nevertheless, we are the ultimate employers, and we have the right to improve the Fair Wages Clause if we see fit to do so. To this end I would like to make one or two suggestions.
In line 16 of the Motion, and subsequently, there are expressions with regard to the execution of the contracts. I suggest that those expressions are anomalous and contradictory. They are anomalous in this sense. If a Government Department places an order, say, with an engineering or shipbuilding firm, how is it possible for it to be sure that the particular part of the work executed by that firm for the Government shall be under these rules? Some other work, perhaps being done on the same floor, or at the next bench, or even the next lathe, may not be subject to those rules. I believe that anomaly must be obvious to everyone. Perhaps the Minister—or whoever is to answer for the Department—will be good

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enough to tell us why the trade union side have not pointed out this position, and asked for the expression to be removed.
The Motion is contradictory in another sense. Part of paragraph 2 reads as follows:
"Before a contractor is placed upon a department's list of firms to be invited to tender, the department shall obtain from him an assurance that to the best of his knowledge and belief he has complied with the general conditions required by this Resolution for at least the previous three months."
How would this work out in practice? Suppose a firm employing 2,000 workers wish to comply with these conditions. They have to do so for three months before they are put upon the Government's list. That means that they have to comply constantly with the conditions, and that the whole of the firm have to comply. They are not to know which section of the firm will work on the Government contract when that contract is allotted. Therefore, the last part of the paragraph is contradictory and I ask the Minister to withdraw the phrases to which I have referred, or to give an adequate explanation for maintaining them.
The other suggestion I have for improving the Motion is in connection with paragraph 4. I believe this is not adequately treated. It reads:
"The contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of Trade Unions."
I do not claim to have had the experience other hon. Members, notably the Minister of Labour himself, have had, in the trade union field, but I have had some experience and I can quote more than one firm which recognises a trade union, that is to say, raises no objection to workmen becoming members of a union, but still will not negotiate with the union officials, and certainly not with the union's factory committee. The right of organisation in a trade union as such, cannot be adequate unless with it goes the right of the workers to be represented in negotiation with the employer, and the Fair Wages Clause should include that duty on the part of the employers. In this I should have the support of every trade union member in this House and likewise the leading trade union officials outside. I wonder why the trade unions have not pressed this point. It may be said that they were, perhaps, compromising in another matter pressed by the other side, in which case it would be
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unfair if this House were not informed of how the compromise was reached. In the absence of such information, I must ask the Minister to give attention to this point, and I and others would be very pleased indeed if he could see his way to include it. If he feels he would like to consider the matter further that can be agreed to, with the good will of the House.
This Motion could have gone much further. The terms of the Motion put down by the Minister relate only in a general aspect to pay and conditions comparable with those in the industry. The Minister himself said that many a local authority has gone much beyond this, and has insisted on trade unionism in its employers. We have not insisted on that. It would have been a wiser and more adequate step at this first stage of Socialism—I do not use that phrase in the same manner as the right hon. Member for Bromley—had the Minister gone as far as that. As he has not seen fit to do so, I hope he will include the proposition I have made.
4.33 p.m.
Mr. Henry Strauss: I beg to move, in line 26, to leave out "Trade Unions," and to insert "any Trade Union."
Like the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour, whose vigorous speech I enjoyed, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), I naturally treat with the greatest respect the agreement reached by all parties in 1942 which was embodied in the White Paper, and, needless to say, I generally welcome the Amendments to the Fair Wages Clauses which the right hon. Gentleman proposes. Nevertheless, I ventured to put this Amendment on the Order Paper.
Had this Amendment been brought to the notice of the negotiating parties in 1942, it would, I think, have been treated by them as a drafting Amendment and would, I believe, have been accepted. I do not believe that at that date it would have occurred to anybody that by that Amendment I was doing anything except making the matter clear in a way that all the parties would have desired that it should be made clear. The assertion of trade union rights that was then contemplated was not, I am perfectly certain, the right of any employer to dictate to a

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worker to what trade union that worker should belong, but events that have occurred subsequently make it very desirable that we should place the matter beyond any doubt. The new factors that have occurred are the passage into law of the repeal of the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Act of 1927 and the subsequent action, made possible but not made certain by the Repeal, which was taken by the London Passenger Transport Board, and has given rise to the fear of similar action in a great number of other cases.
What we have to consider in this Motion, as Mr. Speaker pointed out, is the Government contract. As the Minister of Labour so wisely said, and everybody has agreed with him, the placing of Government contracts itself gives the Government power to cause employers who hope to get these contracts to adopt high standards of work and wages and conditions of employment. It is admittedly one of the great chances that this House has of encouraging good practice and discouraging bad practice. If, therefore, the practice of the closed shop—and I promise the right hon. Gentleman I shall not be lacking in definition of what I mean—is a bad practice, it is important that this House should discourage it by the terms of the Fair Wages Clauses. I say first, therefore, that my Amendment is a clarifying Amendment. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman's advisers will tell him that it does or does not alter the meaning of the Motion—[Interruption]. The hon. Member, who can never wait for the next sentence, will have the opportunity to speak later, but at the moment I have the attention of the Members of the House, other than himself, and I am making my speech in my own way. If the words of my Amendment are adopted in the Clauses, at least this is clear, that any contractor who does what the London Passenger Transport Board has recently done cannot hope for a Government contract—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]. That is the effect of my Amendment. That may be good or bad, but that is true. What I wonder is whether those who speak from the Front Bench on the other side will say that that is or is not the effect of their Motion as it stands. If it is the effect, they will not mind accepting a
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clarifying Amendment. If it is not, then this party will know exactly what it is dividing on when it goes to a Division.
I understand—I can only speak by way of anticipation of the Government's reply—from their inspired newspapers, of which there are a very great number, that the Government are going to adopt an attitude of complete neutrality in this matter. I do not know whether that is true or not. At any rate, it is a change because when a recent Bill, now an Act, was before the House, the right hon. Gentleman was anything but neutral on this matter. These are his words:
"If a local authority gets the power of saying they desire their workers to belong to a trade union, it is only sense that they should be able to say which unions they should join."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1946; Vol. 419. c. 300.]
To him it seems perfectly natural that the employers should dictate to the men what trade union they should join. We think this is an outrage on liberty. On the further occasion when this matter is debated, if not today, the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) will make his contribution. On that particular matter—and I only bring in the action of this particular body because it shows what we shall meet generally, no doubt, unless the House uses this opportunity to cause different practices to prevail—the Government also showed what they thought of the merits of the dispute in London Transport by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour referring to the men who belonged to the smaller trade union as members of a "scab union." Whether the Government will try to be neutral today or not, they were not neutral then, and it is quite clear that they cannot be neutral; that there are some matters of such importance to all the workers in this country that the Government must make clear where they stand.
Let me make perfectly clear what the practice is that I condemn, and against which my Amendment is directed. It is not a question of whether all men employed shall belong to a trade union; whatever the merits of that particular question, they are not raised by my Amendment. If my Amendment is adopted, there is nothing to stop any employer insisting that all his men shall belong to a trade union. That is the first

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point I ask hon. Members to consider who wish to do justice to this important subject—and I believe whatever view is taken, those who are connected with trade union matters, at any rate, realise it is an important subject. The second point I want to make clear is that I am not laying down any condition whatsoever about what trade union shall be recognised in negotiations, or with whom agreements shall be made. It is perfectly possible, though two trade unions or more may have members in the same grade of an industry, that the employers only recognise one for the purpose of negotiations. Where that is so, there is nothing in my Amendment to interfere with that practice.
I now come to the third point, against which my Amendment is directed. It is that the employer shall not be entitled to say, if he wishes to get a Government contract, "I shall decide that all my men shall belong to one union which I name and to that union alone. Any man who does not belong to that union cannot get his living in my shop at any rate, and, if my business happens to be a monopoly, he cannot get it in the industry at all." That is the thing against which my Amendment is directed. Let me remind hon. and right hon. Members opposite just how great a threat to human liberty that particular evil can be. Hon. Members, if they are humane, and I give them credit for that, may well say that in certain industries you have a trade union which is so obviously the trade union in that shop that the other which calls itself a trade union is not really a bona fide trade union at all, and that therefore there is a strong case for requiring the men to join the big trade union which is recognised in negotiations with the employers. When this argument is put forward to the public in speeches and articles, it is always suggested that any man who wishes to join that trade union is able to do so. However, that does not follow in the least. The big trade union retains an absolute right to refuse a man on any grounds, and without giving any reason. If, for instance, they do not like his politics, there is nothing to stop them refusing that man, nothing whatever. In the case of the London Passenger Transport Board, to give it as an illustration, the statement published by the employers referred to the understanding—
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"that an opportunity will be given to all non-members of the Transport and General Workers' Union to join that Union,"
but, at the delegate meeting about two days afterwards, this resolution was passed by the delegates of that great trade union:
"Membership of the Transport and General Workers' Union shall remain open to non-members at the discretion of the area passenger group Committee of the Union."
[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"] I am delighted to hear cheers from hon. Members opposite; it shows that they are under no misapprehension as to what is involved. What is involved is that the employers can say to their men, "Either you join the union or you cease to earn your living in the industry—if it is a monopoly—or in the shop, if it is not a monopoly—but you have no right whatsoever to enter that union if the union does not like you." If you happen to be a well-known Conservative and they do not like your politics, then they can convert you into an industrial outlaw by saying, "As far as we are concerned, you can starve." I do not know how many hon. Members opposite, proud trade unionists, are proud of such a claim, but what I do know is that the party to which I belong will resist it, and so will everybody who calls himself a Liberal and has any liberalism in him whatsoever; and those parties between them, even at the time of the General Election, commanded the majority of the electors.
Mr. Bowles: May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman one question? Can he cast his mind back to 1944 when the Coalition Government introduced Regulation IAA? And does he remember what that entailed and did he not support it? Was it not five years' penal servitude for three or more workers to suggest not working except at a properly convened trade union meeting, and did he not support it? Was not that the "closed shop"? [Interruption.]
Mr. Strauss: I thought the hon. Gentleman wanted to ask me a question; I did not realise that he did not wish me to reply. As he does not wish me to reply, of course I will not. If he changes his mind and would like me to reply, I would say that while a discussion on Regulation IAA would be out of Order, I cannot remember, without looking up the circumstances, what they were. I certainly will

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look it up, but my recollection is that IAA was only a temporary Regulation and not part of our permanent law. As part of our permanent law, certainly I should have been right to object to it.
Mr. Bowles: Well I did, and you did not.
Mr. Strauss: I cannot argue, but I am delighted to be in agreement with such a powerful mind and to be assured of his support in the Division Lobby for our Amendment tonight.
Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I understand that Mr. Speaker has already ruled earlier today that this is a very narrow Debate. I have been looking at the terms of the Motion and at the Amendment, and I understand that the Amendment proposes to leave out the words "Trade Unions"—you will notice, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that is in the plural—and to substitute the words "any Trade Union." The hon. and learned Gentleman has already suggested that it is really a drafting Amendment and if that is so, can it possibly be in Order to raise all these highly interesting but very controversial questions with which the hon. and learned Gentleman is now dealing?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): So far as I have heard him, the hon. and learned Member has been quite in Order.
Mr. Strauss: I am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I have never yet succeeded in making a speech without an attempt being made from that quarter to suppress me, but I still go on optimistically, and the rest of the House is generally good enough to listen. It is not in the least necessary, in the practice against which I am directing this Amendment, that the union objected to by what I may call the big or predominant union should be what is known as a "splinter" union. It may be a union, as in a recent case we know of, which has been recognised as the union in the grades concerned for many years, and not in any sense a "splinter" union. I am well aware that both from the point of view of the employed, and the employer, it may often be very convenient that one union should represent all the men. That is quite obvious. Many em-
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ployers, and many trade unionists, say so. The question is not whether the thing would be convenient if it came about voluntarily, but whether it is tolerable in a civilised society that we should bring that result about by compulsion, by saying to a man, "Either you join a union which you may detest, of the management, principles, and methods of which you may disapprove, or you clear out." How far that is justifiable is the question that really ought to be considered.
There are good reasons why a man might object to joining a particular trade union. He may even take a different view on questions of output which in his view border on morals. To him the union's limitation of output may seem contrary to the national interest. He may not wish to belong to a trade union which insists on such a limitation. There may be many reasons, reasons which may be good or bad, but they are his reasons. If we deprive him of the ability to follow his reasons we are exercising tyranny, and doing something outrageous to a free man. A matter which strikes me as a little extraordinary is the pure humbug of the argument that is being put forward—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]—by hon. Members opposite. I do not know why they have now ceased to cheer.
Mr. Kirkwood: When I look at you goats, I know the explanation.
Mr. Strauss: The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) may become coherent at almost any moment, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I will give way to him. The argument that is humbug is the suggestion that the closed shop, in the sense in which I have described it, is justified because it would avoid unofficial strikes. That argument is pure, unadulterated humbug. So far from it being true that unofficial strikes are discouraged by one big union and by the closed shop, it is precisely among the unions seeking a closed shop that the unofficial strikes are most frequent.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and learned Member, but I understand that Mr. Speaker ruled that this is not the occasion to discuss the general question of the closed shop. The Debate is much more restricted than that, I hope the hon. and learned Member will not go into the wider question.
Mr. Strauss: No, Sir, except to this extent, that by the words of the right hon. Gentleman in moving the Motion, and of subsequent speakers, the object of the Fair Wages Clauses is to see that people who have Government contracts adopt the best practices. The question is whether a closed shop is a good practice. I do not think there is anything between us, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I certainly do not mean to enter into any of the details, but I wish to say why I think this is a bad practice—
Mr. Naylor: On a point of Order. The hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) is moving a very narrow Amendment and is making a long speech upon no point at all. I want to point out to you, Sir, that there is no difference whatever between the words "trade unions" as they stand in the Motion and "trade union" as proposed in the Amendment.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That does not appear to me to be a point of Order. The hon. Member for South Southwark (Mr. Naylor) can put his version when he has the opportunity.
Mr. S. Silverman: I can assure the hon. and learned Member that I have no desire to suppress him. I think he is on an interesting point. But I think the House may fairly claim to be entitled to know from you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether discussion of the closed shop is in Order, or not, on this Amendment. I feel sure it will not be in Order for the hon. and learned Member to discuss it, if other hon. Members are not to discuss it. I have already submitted to you, Sir—and I am afraid I did not quite follow what your Ruling was—that these questions of the closed shop and liberty of trade unions, and all that kind of thing, cannot possibly arise on this Amendment.
Mr. Strauss: Whatever may be—
Mr. Silverman: I have not asked the hon. and learned Member to reply.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understood the hon. and learned Gentleman was putting his view on the point of Order.
Mr. Strauss: Whatever may be arguable about what is in Order on this Amendment, I should have thought that in the interests of the Government there should not be an unofficial strike in a
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shop engaged on a Government contract. The one question I am raising is whether my Amendment would guard against unofficial strikes. That surely must be in Order.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: These matters relate only to Government contracts. I understand that that is Mr. Speaker's Ruling. Secondly, we cannot have a general discussion on the closed shop. That may arise incidentally, and in passing, on this Amendment, but no more than that and similarly with unofficial strikes. I would also point out to the hon. and learned Member that all the Motion says is that the contractor should recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of a trade union. There is nothing I see there about compulsion.
Mr. Strauss: I quite agree, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but my Amendment substitutes the words "any trade union." My Amendment makes it absolutely clear that compulsion cannot be exercised by the employer—[Interruption.] I am making my own speech. I am making it quite clear that if my Amendment is accepted, it will be quite impossible for any Government contractor to do what the London Passenger Transport Board has done. If my Amendment is not accepted, it remains dubious. Whoever is to reply to the Debate should make it clear whether my Amendment does make a difference. If it does not make a difference, no doubt they will accept it, because it clarifies the position. If it does make a difference, they should say so. But I will say to that part of the House which has generously listened to me that I should long since have finished my speech but for the points of Order. On this point of unofficial strikes, is it not quite obvious that if a great trade union finds difficulty in having its leadership obeyed by those who have joined it voluntarily, it will have much more difficulty when its ranks are increased by those who have been forced to join it by compulsion? I rejoice greatly that the Trades Union Congress has not yet committed itself on this subject. I trust that it will reflect on this Debate and study the Division list if this matter has to go to a Division.
Let us see where we shall be led if the practice against which my Amendment is directed should be made general. It

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will be possible for a man to change his name, it will be possible for a man to change his address; for some time still he will be able to change his doctor. He can change his religion; at rare intervals he may change his grocer; in extreme cases he may change his wife, but never in any circumstances may he change his trade union. Do hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who have studied the history of trade unionism really desire, or think that the history of trade unionism—
Mr. James Glanville: On a point of Order. Is it not a fact that the profession to which the hon. and learned Member belongs strictly enforces the policy of the "closed shop"?
Mr. Strauss: What a pity the hon. Member rose to ask that question. Had he only kept quiet, every one present would have thought that he understood what was taking place in this Chamber. This is not merely a trivial matter. Unless we discourage the practice, as we can discourage it by passing this Amendment, and insisting that in Government contracts at any rate we give a good example, it will become possible in this country for a man to become an industrial outlaw.
I ask the House to consider my Amendment from three aspects. Let them consider it from the point of view of the individual, the liberty of the citizen, which I have already discussed as much as I propose to do, and which I believe they will see is deeply involved in this Amendment. I ask them to think of the reputation of trade unionism. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour is himself one who has given devoted service to trade unionism, and he knows as well as anybody here that bullying or coercion can do great injury to trade unionism, which has grown up and grown strong by its power to attract free men, not by its power to coerce the unwilling. Lastly, let me say—and this is very relevant to the state of affairs we have today, when the number of Government contracts is greatly increasing, and when the number of Government monopolies is increasing—that if the tendency is always to be one union and one union only, and always a diminishing number of unions, is there not some danger that we will get to the state of one great union or a labour front? Those who are far sighted already see the danger that the T.U.C. itself may
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become either a power overriding this House or, what to trade unionists is just as bad, a power in alliance with and subservient to the Government that is employing them.
Those are the alternatives with which we may be faced. The objection to the small union is very often not that it is a splinter union but that it is not affiliated to the T.U.C. To object to a man belonging to a union on that ground is tyrannical, because the T.U.C, by its constitution, is committed to political purposes and political aims which do not command universal assent but only the support of one party. Let me, in conclusion, express the view I have expressed elsewhere. I say that the objections to the tyranny against which my Amendment is directed are both moral and practical. Not only is tyranny wrong but it will not produce the results which its advocates claim The trade union that waxes large, not by its ability to attract free men to its ranks, but by its ability to make membership the condition on which they may be allowed to earn their livelihood, will find that it has lost in influence more than it has gained in numbers. What is more, it will find that having destroyed the freedom of others it will not long be free. Neither a free society nor a Socialist State could leave such monopolies uncontrolled.
5.7 p.m.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I beg to second the Amendment.
The great experience which the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour has as a trade union negotiator, as well as the responsibilities of his present most important office, will, I am sure, lead him to welcome the opportunity for clarification which has been given by the moving of this Amendment. It is manifest from some of the interjections from hon. Members opposite, that there is a perfectly genuine cleavage of opinion as to the precise meaning of paragraph 4 of the Resolution which the right hon. Gentleman has moved. It is perfectly obvious that some hon. Members are of the opinion that paragraph 4, as it stands, has the same effect as the words of the Amendment. It is equally obvious that some other hon. Members, equally sincerely, are of the other opinion.
Mr. S. Silverman: What other opinion?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It will surely be accepted, even by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), that it is highly desirable that there should be no ambiguity on this subject. It would obviously lead to the gravest consequences in the industrial sphere, if any doubt whatever were left in the minds of any of the people concerned as to the precise meaning of a Fair Wages Resolution passed by this House. I am certain that hon. Members will accept that proposition, and it is surely necessary for the right hon. Gentleman, or the Parliamentary Secretary, at the earliest possible stage of the Debate on this Amendment, to tell the House whether, in the opinion of the Minister's advisers, this Amendment makes any difference or not. If the right hon. Gentleman tells the House that it makes no difference, then, in view of the admitted ambiguity, he will presumably accept the Amendment. If his view is that it does make a difference, it is surely incumbent upon him to tell the House whether it is the intention of the Government to make the closed shop possible in the works of contractors engaged on Government contracts. Those contractors and the trade unions themselves are entitled to an answer. I hope that the House will not be treated to the evasions on this issue of which the right hon. Gentleman was guilty last Thursday. I hope that in the interval he has had the opportunity to study the precise meaning of the phrase which last Thursday he dismissed as an American term introduced into this country to embarrass the Government. One would have thought that, of all Ministers, the right hon. Gentleman would at the moment be in the best possible position fully to understand the meanings of American terms. At any rate, I hope we shall not be treated this afternoon to those evasions.
I am in this difficulty. I do not know any more than my hon. and learned Friend which attitude the Government intend to adopt. As, if they adopt the one, they will accept the Amendment, I can only take the line of arguing on the basis that they will take the view that they propose to permit the closed shop in the works of contractors working on Government contracts. It is very important that the House, if that is right, should appreciate the consequences. I appreciate that I should not be in Order were I to discuss, or attempt to discuss, the general merits of the closed shop. On the other
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hand, it is perfectly clear—[Interruption]—I have no doubt, Sir, you will be able to conduct this Debate without the intermittent assistance of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. It is important that the House should discuss this matter on its merits and without prejudice. The perfectly clear issue is not whether it is desirable for all members of the staff of any particular contractor to be members of one union or not. I am more than willing to concede to hon. Members opposite that, in many cases, that is highly desirable and makes for smooth working. The issue is far more important than that. It is whether it is legitimate to use compulsion, to use a kind of conscription to compel that state of affairs, and to face men working at their trade with the alternative of joining a union which they do not like, or the sack.
That is the issue, and it is one which it is incumbent upon the right hon. Gentleman to face squarely and honestly. If he intends to tell the House that he welcomes and will encourage that attitude on the part of Government contractors, who, as he has rightly said, should set an example in the industrial field, then it is right that the House should know that. With all the sincerity of which I am capable, I press the right hon. Gentleman to tell us one way or the other. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen behind him have fully appreciated the nature of compulsion which the imposition of the closed shop involves. Many hon. Members opposite, I am sure with the greatest sincerity, have protested with great vigour against the imposition of military conscription even at the time of the gravest national emergency. I ask those hon. Members to search their consciences and to reflect whether that compulsion which they deprecated in those circumstances, is justifiable merely for the sake of possible smoothness in the running of factories and works.
It was with pleasant surprise that I observed in the last few days a statement, by no less a person than the chairman of the Independent Labour Party that he regarded the imposition of this closed shop as a tyranny. That leads me to hope that hon. Members opposite will approach the problem with the same fairness and judgment—
Mr. Haworth: On a point of Order. You have ruled, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the discussion of the general principle of the closed shop is out of Order. The reference made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) to the statement by the chairman of the Independent Labour Party was definitely a reference to the closed shop in general, and not merely related to Government contracts. I suggest that the submission made by the hon. Member is out of Order.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the statement to which the hon. Member referred was a general statement not restricted to Government contracts it was, of course, not relevant and was out of Order.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Lacking as I do the capacity for clairvoyance which the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth) no doubt possesses, I do not know whether Mr. Edwards, in making the statement to which I have referred, intended to refer directly to Government contracts or to the closed shop in general. In any event, I did not intend to pursue that matter further. I introduced it solely in the hope of suggesting to hon. Members opposite that they might also adopt a similar sense of fairness and justice in approaching this problem. I hope the hon. Member who appears to pay so much attention to the observations of Mr. Edwards will follow his excellent example in this Debate.
Mr. McAdam: Is it in Order for the hon. Member to continue to violate your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have far too great a respect for your firmness in the Chair, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to attempt the task. I know better than the hon. Member opposite that it would be a task impossible to achieve. Hon. Members opposite are faced, so far as Government contracts are concerned, with the square issue of compulsion. Are they prepared, so far as Government contracts are concerned, for the use of compulsion to compel men to join unions which they do not wish to join? That is the issue raised upon this Amendment. It is one upon which I welcome a conflict. The Conservative Party have no reason to be
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ashamed of their attitude towards trade unions and trade unionism. It was the Conservative Party who freed the unions of the risk of legal action preventing strike action. It is with the knowledge that the Conservative Party have always stood for the liberty of the ordinary trade unionist to do what is right, no matter what certain union bosses may desire, that I have very great pleasure in seconding the Amendment.
5.18 p.m.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: I had the pleasure this morning to attend a breakfast in the company of the hon. and learned Gentleman who moved this Amendment and the hon. Gentleman who seconded it. It was with the Lord Chancellor at a time-honoured, traditional, ceremonial and hospitable occasion—
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: On a point of Order, Is it in Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for an hon. Member in this House to call into question the actions of the Lord Chancellor?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not gather that the hon. Gentleman was questioning the action of the Lord Chancellor—the invitation was, I thought, a matter of congratulation.
Mr. Silverman: Far from intending to call it in question, I was, on the contrary, in a humble way intending to offer my gratitude and to express the great pleasure I had in being present on that occasion with those two hon. Gentlemen who are members of the most closed shop which ever existed. I never saw a more closed shop in all my life. So far from the compulsion of employers being involved, the whole compulsion of the State is involved not merely in an industry but in two separate departments of the industry; so that if the hon. and learned Gentleman who moved this Amendment were to attempt to carry out the functions of my profession, actually the criminal law would be invoked. These are the hon. and learned Gentlemen who presume to invite the House to comment on the tyranny of compelling people in an industry to belong to one trade union. How many trade unions are there in the profession to which the hon. Gentleman belongs? There are four Inns of Court, but only one Bar Council. You can choose the Inn to which you may belong, but you cannot choose which union, and

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that is all. I hope I shall not be misunderstood if I say that for people who make their living in an industry fully and completely protected, from any competition, by the sanction of the criminal law, to make the plea that has been made in this House today is complete, sheer, insincere humbug, designed only to make political capital, and with the same ineffectiveness which characterises every attempt that comes from hon. Members opposite. In so far as the hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke first from the Opposition Benches is concerned, I hope he will not think it impertinent of me if I advise him to remember in future, when talking about these matters, that it is extremely ineffective to adopt a fighting attitude when one does not intend to fight.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member ought to know about that.
Mr. Silverman: I do not know that anybody ever complained of my unwillingness to fight. I am bound to say that, were it not for the efforts of half-a-dozen of us on this side of the House, there would be no Opposition at all. How does this question come to arise on this Amendment at all? I have heard both the hon. Gentlemen say repeatedly that the question of the closed shop, at any rate in factories working on Government contracts, is raised by this Amendment. I cannot see it. The hon. and learned Gentleman who moved the Amendment, as well as the hon. Gentleman who seconded it, never made up their own minds whether they were moving some Amendment of principle, or a drafting Amendment. They continually challenged the Government to say whether they thought that acceptance of the Amendment would make any difference to the Motion. I would invite them to say so, and I am perfectly prepared to sit down and allow the hon. and learned Gentleman to interrupt me, on condition that he answers my question clearly. Will he tell the House exactly what he invites the House to believe would be the difference in the operation of this Motion, if the Amendment were carried?
Mr. Henry Strauss: If I were allowed to do so, I could certainly do so. If our Amendment is carried, it becomes quite obvious, in my submission, that any employer who did what the London Passenger Transport Board
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has recently done—[Interruption.] Well, does the hon. Gentleman want an answer or not? My submission is that, if my Amendment were adopted, it would become clearly impossible for any employer who did what the London Passenger Transport Board recently did to hope for any Government contracts. If my Amendment is not adopted, it will remain wholly obscure whether that is the case or not, and it may be a matter of a great deal of dispute, which might be useful to the hon. Gentleman's profession and to mine, but will not be in the public interest.
Mr. Silverman: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman allow me to assure him that I heard him say that the first time? I have since heard him say it for the 19th and 27th times during his speech. Now I have heard him say it twice more. But the hon. and learned Gentleman has never yet attempted to show me how this Amendment, if adopted, will alter a single word. I doubt whether the hon. and learned Gentleman has read his own Amendment. The Motion, in Clause 4, says:
"The contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of Trade Unions."
What is ambiguous about that? There is nothing about tyranny or compulsion there. It is the safeguard of his freedom to join, not a particular trade union, but trade unions, as it is in the plural and not the singular. That is to say, a contractor, with regard to his employees in pursuance of a Government contract, shall recognise their freedom to belong to any trade union—to trade unions, one or more. I could quite understand the point of the hon. and learned Gentleman if the "s" were omitted. Does the hon. and learned Gentleman think that those who negotiated in 1942, were not alive to the point that has now arisen? Is it a new thing? Is it that we have been waiting until the hon. and learned Member was in Opposition before it became necessary? How is it that we heard nothing of this between 1942 and 1946? How was it that his right hon. Friends who lead the Opposition on this occasion, have not signed his Amendment? How is it that they do not support his Amendment?
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Wait and see.
Mr. Silverman: If it really means that the Conservative Party in this House now

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proposes to accede to the injunctions given at Blackpool to be more effective in Opposition by some hon. Members voting in the opposite Lobby and some not voting at all, I think they will be in for a hot time at the next Conservative Conference. It is quite possible that all those great industrial leaders who negotiated this proposal in 1942 were blind to their own interests. It is quite possible that they did not know anything like as much about the working of factories and industries as the hon. and learned Gentleman who moved the Amendment. Of course, it is possible, but I shall take a lot of convincing that it was so.
Mr. H. Strauss: I thought perhaps the hon. Member might have remembered that the 1927 Act has been repealed since this was negotiated.
Mr. Silverman: The hon. and learned Gentleman is not-nearly as innocent as he pretends. He knew perfectly well, and they knew perfectly well in 1942, that the Trades Unions Act of 1927 was in issue. We have made that perfectly clear ever since 1927. It must not be thought that, when we did what we have always undertaken to do, it really took anybody by surprise. This Party has a reputation for keeping its pledges—[Interruption.] Of course, if the hon. and learned Gentleman has really been conducting his political career on the basis that the Labour Party, firstly, would never come to power, and, secondly, if it did, would not carry out its programme, I am not surprised that the Conservative Party is now in a position of ineffective Opposition, where it is likely to remain for several generations.
Vice - Admiral Taylor: On a point of Order. Has what the hon. Member is saying anything to do with the Debate?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Not a great deal, I am afraid.
Mr. Silverman: I was dealing precisely and in set terms with the argument of the hon. and learned Member. I invited him to say why this point only arises now in 1946, and whether that was because the great leaders of industry who negotiated this agreement had overlooked the point. He gave me a reason which I endeavoured to rebut, and, with that,
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I leave the point and go back to the Motion. I again invite anybody who supports this Amendment to say how this question of tyranny, compulsion and the closed shop, either in a Government factory or any factory, can possibly arise out of paragraph 4 of this Motion as it stands. It certainly does not arise, and nobody has attempted to show what possible difference would be made by substituting the words "any trade union" for "trade unions" in the plural.
Mr. H. Strauss: I accept the sincerity of the argument which the hon. Gentleman puts forward, but I would remind him that he made precisely the same mistake in law when we were considering the repeal of Section 6 of the 1927-Act. He thought that the repeal of that Section would not have the effect of giving a public corporation the power to prescribe a particular trade union. He is equally wrong now on exactly the same point.
Mr. Silverman: Unlike the hon. and learned Member, I have made no claim to be infallible. I have only asked him to enlighten my ignorance out of the profundity of his own knowledge. Of course, it is perfectly possible that I am entirely wrong in thinking that all these burning questions do not arise on paragraph 4 as it stands. But I have an open mind, and if anyone ever attempts to convince me that they do arise I shall listen with an open mind. All I am complaining of is that in speeches which have lasted for nearly one and a half hours, neither the mover nor the seconder of the Amendment has yet begun to apply his mind to that endeavour. One does not prove a point merely by repeating a statement. Let me remind hon. Members opposite that the onus of proving an Amendment lies upon those who move it. It is not for me to show that the thing as it stands is all right, although I think it is. If anyone thinks it is not, then the onus is upon him to explain why it is not when the evil may be remedied. What I am complaining about is that nobody has yet attempted to do that. Hon. Members opposite are simply using this occasion in order to be able to go back to the "Evening Standard," the "Daily Express," and the next meetings of the Central Office and the Conservative Party's annual conference and say, "We did not get very far, but we made the

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attempt, and if we had nothing very intelligent to say, at least we made a lot of noise about it." It may be that some other hon. Member, learned or otherwise, will say what there is in paragraph 4 as it stands upon the Order Paper, which raises any of these questions. When that is done, it will be time enough for this House to deal with it.
5.34 p.m.
Mr. Frank Byers: It may be embarrassing to many of us to find this newly developed interest of the Conservative Party in personal liberty. On the other hand, that does not make their case wrong, and, quite frankly, I have been appalled today at the attitude displayed en masse on the benches opposite. I hope that this Debate will not be regarded by the Government or the House as taking the place of a Debate of much larger scope on these important issues of the closed shop. This is a matter which affects the life and personal liberty of every working man and woman in the country, and it is a grave constitutional issue which must be faced in the near future. I make a solemn plea for a day on which to debate the Motion which already stands upon the Order Paper, so that we may have the opportunity to examine this question of the closed shop and the unions.
[That this House, being of the opinion that all workers should be free to decide which Trade Union they will join and that pressure exercised on individual workers by their employers to induce them to join a particular Union is a gross invasion of the liberty of the subject, calls upon His Majesty's Government immediately to set up a Royal Commission to inquire into the operation of the closed shop and closed union system, especially in industry and services under public control.]
I do not think that anybody will deny that the Parliamentary Liberal Party were right when we debated the repeal of the Trade Disputes Act, 1927, in demanding the production of an up to date charter for the trade union movement.
Hon. Members: Order.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That question does not arise on this Amendment.
Mr. Byers: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy-Speaker; I accept your rebuke and will confine myself to the Amendment. I am
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speaking today because I believe that paragraph 4 of the Motion is far too vague for this House to pass in its present form, and that it must be closely defined. We are giving orders to Government contractors that they shall do certain things. These things are not in the least specific. I do not say that the Amendment on the Order Paper is the right answer, but I do say that as paragraph 4 stands, it is far too vague, and that this Amendment will make it much better. Therefore, on those grounds, I call upon the Government to accept this Amendment in order to clarify the situation.
If we are to pass this Motion, the Government must show in it exactly what their intention is with regard to the closed shop and Government contractors. We are setting a precedent, and it is important that the Government should take up a definite attitude on this matter. I do not believe that they can stand aside on such an important issue. I believe that they have been trying to evade the issue, but I sincerely hope that we have got past that stage and that they will make up their mind and incorporate their decision in the Motion. As it stands, a Government contractor is told to do something in the vaguest possible terms. If it is left as it stands, and judging by the attitude of many hon. Members opposite, the impression will be given that the Government are tacitly agreeing to the closed shop arrangement. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I suggest that that is true. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] If it is not, then let us have a declaration from the party opposite. I am prompted to suggest that it is the duty of the Government to define their attitude in this Motion.
Many aspects of this case concerning Government contracts have been brought to my attention. What is the position of a non-unionist who wants to join a union and of a non-unionist who is working for a Government contractor who wants to join and cannot? I have had a lot of letters on the subject today, and it is an interesting thing that they are now coming to the Liberal Party. I have a letter from a man who says that he has already tried his Labour M.P. There are many hundreds of firms employed by the Government as contractors. This is the case of a man who is not, in fact, employed in a Government contractor's firm, but who might well have been. It is exactly the same analogy.

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He says that he is a victim of this closed shop policy. He wauled to join the electrical trade union. He was ordered to—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understand that the hon. Gentleman's reference is to a contract which is not a Government contract. If so, that is not relevant to this Debate.
Mr. Byers: I have always understood that in this House one is allowed to draw an analogy. In this case I am saying that I have had a letter from a man who, in fact, was working for a public authority, but it might just as well have been a Government contractor, and I am asking the Government—because this is a precedent—to define their attitude in this Motion. I am producing this letter as evidence that they should do so.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think we had better keep a little closer to the line than that. A good many analogies might be quoted from a good many different quarters if we once broke away.
Mr. Byers: Am I to take it that I am not allowed to draw any analogies at all?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Certainly not. The hon. Member may draw relevant analogies.
Mr. Byers: I suggest that the Government are under a serious obligation to define their attitude in this Fair Wages Motion which, apparently, is to be posted up in every factory in England. What is to be the attitude of the contractor? What is he to do in order to guarantee or recognise the freedom of his workpeople? What does that mean? I cannot believe that this House is going to pass a vague phrase like that and say, "That is the law." What is the Government contractor to do when faced with the demand from his workpeople for the establishment of a monopoly union?
Mr. S. Silverman: I hesitate to put this question to a Member of the Liberal Party, but surely the hon. Member understands what the word "freedom" means? The Motion says that the employer shall recognise a man's freedom to join a trade union.
Mr. Byers: Any trade union?
Mr. Silverman: Certainly, all trade unions.
Mr. Byers: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. In other words, the Government contractor must recognise the freedom of all his workpeople to join any union they like. [Interruption.] I do feel that this is not a laughing matter. Are those the Members who were talking at the last Election about the freedom of the working man? I should be ashamed of myself.
Mr. Tolley: Of whom is the hon. Member the champion?
Mr. Byers: We shall see. I suggest that the position of Government contractors on this question of the monopoly union ought to be defined. We have had a suggestion from the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), and I am obliged to him, because we have never had a suggestion from the Front Bench opposite. I would like to know whether the Government disagree with the establishment of a monopoly union, or whether they agree that a contractor who is approached by a large trade union should refuse to establish a monopoly union within his works.
Mr. S. Silverman: All I am suggesting is that when there is a paragraph in a Motion which calls upon the employer to recognise a worker's freedom to join trade unions, that cannot be so interpreted as to raise a question of whether one is for or against the "closed shop."
Mr. Byers: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, but I want to know this. If a contractor wants a Government contract, what has he to do in order to get it? If he supports a demand to a union to establish a monopoly, does that enable him to be a Government contractor, or do the Government say, "No, we do not agree with a monopoly union. You have violated the sacred rights of man and, therefore, we shall not give you a contract"? That is the point on which we want a decision. What will the Government do to an employer who says "This is fine. One thing I have always wanted is a monopoly union. I have only one set of people to deal with now. I can buy off the leaders." Hon. Members should realise that that has happened in America. This House is the place where these things should be foreseen. If we are not to foresee these things, what is this House for? The Government have a duty

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to make up their minds. The threat of a monopoly union can cause in Government contractors and in public authorities the establishment of a new tyranny—the tyranny of the official over the member and the non-member, the tyranny of one man over another.
We must have a decision from the Government; they must express their attitude. In this case, I can produce evidence that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, when speaking in the Debate on Regulation IAA in April, 1944, referred to the protection of the unions. I cannot go into that because I would be out of Order, but I would recommend hon. Members to read that Debate. I could not attend the Debate because I was otherwise engaged, but there we have the complete defence of the freedom of the individual and the complete attack on the monopoly union. He was supported by, among others, the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern), who put up a magnificent fight on that occasion for the individual. This is a matter which the Government must face, and they must give us time for a full and proper discussion on it. I hope I have said enough to make Members realise that this is a grave constitutional issue.
5.48 p.m.
Mr. John Edwards: Certain issues have been raised here, and I would ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to believe that in what I have to say I shall be talking about the people employed in firms which have, or are likely to have, Government contracts. I would like to begin in general terms. Everyone who has spoken so far on the other side of the House, be he Tory or Liberal, has dealt with this question as though it were a very simple issue. The whole idea of the mover of the Amendment was to show that the issue was simple. The hon. Member for Northern Dorset (Mr. Byers) insisted that it is quite a simple matter of sacred human rights.
Mr. Byers: I do not want the hon. Gentleman to infer that I think this is a simple matter, or that I think it has a simple solution. He will remember that we asked for an inquiry by a Royal Commission.
Mr. Edwards: That may be so, but there is no denying the fact that the hon. Member did appeal to what he called sacred human rights. He talked about the rights
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of individual human liberty. I want to put quite a contrary point of view. In my view, civilisation is beginning to reach maturity, when the members of any community are intelligent enough to order their affairs and to compel the recalcitrant man, the ignorant man or the wicked man to submit to compulsory rules for the common good of all men. I put it quite like that. I would remind the hon. Member that one of the apostles of liberty, John Stuart Mill, went as far as to say:
"The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited, that he must not make himself a nuisance"
Mr. Byers: Who is going to define "nuisance"?
Mr. Edwards: Having stated that, let us turn our attention to the Motion. As I understand the Motion which we have in front of us, it would make possible either a closed shop in the sense that the employer could say he would only take men from a union or a number of unions, or it would permit a union shop, in the sense that it would be possible to make arrangements so that when men entered employment in a particular undertaking they were obliged to join a union, or it might be in certain cases one of several unions. It does not, as I understand it, make either obligatory, but it makes them possible. As far as I know, the trade union movement—and I have some right to speak on this matter—would be content to leave it there. We do not mind particularly whether the Government declare themselves on this point, although we would mind if they declared themselves against any arrangements made which did permit, either the closed shop or the union shop in the sense that I have defined them. We trade unionists are quite prepared to rely on our own strength. We know it is nonsense in any contractor's undertaking, to talk of having a closed shop unless we have the majority of people in that shop already organised. We are content to use our own industrial strength and not to ask Parliament, or anybody else, for any particular authority to do what we have been doing, and intend to go on doing.
Let us be clear, too, that if we talk of compulsion we are not talking of something that is inherently bad. I imagine most hon. Members opposite would agree that the whole business of collective bargaining involves compulsion. We do not allow people to work as long as they like;

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we do not allow them to work for as little as they like. There is an element of compulsion which is inherent in any advanced stage of economic or social life. The hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) does, I admit, know a lot about the law relating to trade unions. However, I venture to doubt whether he knows the first thing about the life of a trade union. Let me tell him a few things that would be true, I am quite sure, of the men in the undertakings to which Government contracts have been given. They will belong to their union; that union will have its own life, its own group life, its own system of discipline and its own internal rules and regulations. It will have a spirit which makes it quite unavoidable that the men in the union will regard the nonunion man, the disruptionist and the secessionist, as anathema—as quite outside the pale. This is not a matter merely of trade union experience. It is a matter of human nature, and we would be silly if we did not take it into account. The men in these workshops will belong to unions that have made their collective bargains; they will belong to unions that have accepted obligations—for remember, trade unions do not just go and get things from employers without accepting obligations. Also, they have to face their members from time to time, and to say to their members in the interests of good business, "If we make an agreement we have got to stick to it."
I say that anything which cuts at the authority of the unions in our present circumstances is a bad thing. I believe the effect of what hon. Members opposite are trying to do is to cut at the authority of the unions. You must take it from me that those of us who organise the unions know that our authority is never really complete until we have 100 per cent. membership. It is only then that we are in a position to carry to the full the responsibilities which are placed upon us. These firms and these unions will be taking part in what I hope is our greatest production drive. There will be responsibilities on the firms dealing with the contracts, and there will be responsibilities on unions catering for the men who work in those firms. We shall not get the kind of support that is quite indispensable unless we have a general atmosphere in
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which the unions in proportion to their strength and the responsibility borne by them are given real authority.
Finally, to those who talk in terms of a "Labour front" and a "Fatherland front," I want to draw a distinction between compulsion which is exercised by minorities and compulsion which is exercised by majorities. We have never suggested for one minute that compulsion—be it in the individual workshop or as between various unions—should ever rest on any other principle than the principle which we shall be accepting when we go into the Lobbies to vote on this Motion tonight, an inherent principle in our political democracy, and a principle which is quite essential to any proper functioning of an industrial democracy.
In conclusion, I quote some words used in this House on 6th March, 1925, by Lord Baldwin, who was then Prime Minister. Lord Baldwin began by saying that the House had to move with the times and went on:
"I should like to try to clear our minds of cant on this subject,"—
the subject being the whole organisation of trade associations and trade unions. What did he then go on to say?
"… we cannot lose sight of the fact that in that organisation"—
that is the employers' organisation—
"Just as much as in the men's organisation, the mere fact of organising involves a certain amount of sacrifice of personal liberty. That cannot be helped. Everybody knows that perfectly well, both employers and employees."
And then, more significantly still—and I beg hon. and right hon. Members opposite to take note of this—the then Conservative Prime Minister went on to say:
"The workmen's organisation is formed to see that under the conditions a workman cannot get his living in a particular trade unless he belongs to that union. An employers' organisation is formed in that particular trade for the protection of the trade, and it has the result of effectively preventing any new man starting in that trade.'—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1925; Vol. 181, c. 837–8.]
The then Prime Minister was much more realistic and, if I may say so, far in advance, in 1925, of the hon. Members who sit opposite today.
5.59 p.m.
Mr. Hollis: I am sure the House is deeply indebted to the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. J. Edwards) for, at any rate, there is no longer any

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possibility of doubt. No one can have any excuse for not understanding what this Amendment is about. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) had been admirably patient in explaining the point to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), and I wondered that he was not tempted to vie with Dr. Johnson in saying:
"Sir, I have found you an argument, but I cannot find you an understanding."
But, at any rate, the hon. Member for Blackburn seems to have followed the point a great deal more closely and clearly than the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne.
I entirely understand—I do not say I agree with it—the point of view which the hon. Member for Blackburn puts forward, that in certain circumstances the high rights of the majority may compel the minority. But, surely, there is a corollary to add—that if a trade union is to be allowed to take upon itself this high Hegelian function to speak as the true self of the worker against the worker's own passing wishes, it must necessarily follow that anyone who indulges in an unofficial strike ought to be ostracised, barred out from his union, and, therefore, presumably, prevented from any further employment. That is the logical corollary. Hon. Members opposite are not willing to accept that corollary in its logical conclusion. And rightly so; and therefore to my mind, the whole argument must necessarily fall to the ground.
I entirely appreciate the general argument of people performing Government contracts, that they dislike unionists working with the non-unionist, and the general, common argument that the non-unionist gets for himself all the benefits that union has won, without paying union dues. I appreciate that argument in general, but it has little bearing on the present state of affairs between the rival unions, which is all we are discussing at the moment. The claim of the busmen or of the dockers against the Transport and General Workers Union is not that they should be allowed to enjoy the benefits won by the Transport and General Workers Union without paying its dues. Their complaint is exactly the opposite. Their complaint, and that of the small unions,
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is that the large, Uncle Tom Cobleigh union is doing nothing for them whatsoever, and that a small union is necessary to deal with their particular problems, and in order to win the particular rights of those workers. Whether that argument be a just argument or an unjust argument, we are not concerned at the moment to discuss. Anyone would be very foolish who would say dogmatically and in the abstract that big unions were better than small unions or that small unions were better than big unions. We are not concerned to discuss that.
We are concerned to say, simply, that there are two perfectly genuine points of view, and that, therefore, if this is to go on being a free society at all, it is only right that the worker should be allowed to choose between those two genuine points of view. It is no good the hon. Member for Blackburn saying that the minority, because they are the minority, are ignorant and wicked and recalcitrant.
Mr. J. Edwards: I did not say that.
An hon. Member: That was the implication.
Mr. J. Edwards: The hon. Member is misquoting my words. I did not put those two things in the same context at all.
Mr. Hollis: I naturally withdraw if I am misrepresenting the hon. Member. All I was going to say was that there is a difference between him and the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. I remember that when we were discussing the decasualisation of dock labour, the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne said—inconsistently with his argument today—how he admired the men who would not come into line. I was saying that minorities are not necessarily always wrong or recalcitrant or wicked. I think the way of freedom is to allow the majority and minority to work it out between one another. It is quite clear that what we are moving to in this country today is the managerial State. We are not moving at all towards the classless State of Socialist idealism; but towards the managerial State. The Minister of Fuel and Power said the other day there was being created a new industrial aristocracy On that there are but two comments to be made. First, one could not imagine anything truer, and, secondly,

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one could not imagine anything in more flat contradiction with everything Keir Hardie had in mind when he founded the Labour Party 50 years ago.
There are two serious questions to be answered—To what extent is the coming of the managerial State inevitable, and how can we safeguard ourselves against the abuse of power by this new governing class, to see that it does not abuse power as the wielders of power have always abused it throughout history? The answer to the second of the problems is obviously that we must encourage all organisations in society that are independent of this managerial power, and there are few organisations more important to encourage than free and independent trade unions. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Blackburn on that. My contention against him is precisely that he is not encouraging them, but is killing trade unions. A free and independent trade union is a trade union a man can choose for himself whether he belongs to it. It is not free and independent if the State chooses it for him, and dictates to him what union he shall belong to. My whole argument is, that no greater mistake could possibly be made by trade union leaders or by the Government if, for some short-term advantage, they transform the whole nature of the trade union movement, if they make it cease being something which a man chooses to join because he thinks it to his interest to do so, and transform it into something which he is compelled to join, and where his dues are collected in exactly the same way as his taxes are collected. My whole argument against the hon. Member for Blackburn, whose sincerity I deeply respect, is that, if he does this, and gets the Government to do this, he will not be strengthening the moral influence of the State, but, on the contrary, will be weakening the moral influence of the trade unions.
6.7 p.m.
Mr. Haworth: It is with some diffidence I venture to disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I agree with the mover of the Motion in feeling that there is a difference between the Motion and the Amendment before the House. But I am against the Amendment because I feel its effects to be injurious, and because the Opposition
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have not fully thought out its effects were it carried. I have had a number of letters, as most hon. Members have had, from an organisation calling itself the Aeronautical Engineers Association. If this Amendment were carried, as I read it, an employer of labour would be expected, if he received a Government contract, to give the freedom to any member of his staff to join any trade union. That is the effect of it. That would mean that an employer would be compelled to allow one of his staff to be a member of the Amalgamated Engineers Association if he wanted to be, as against being a member of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, as, in my contention, he ought to be. Let us develop it. What has happened with regard to this union? I have had a number of letters from them and tried to understand what they were asking us to do as Members of Parliament.
This organisation was a dilutees' organisation, which was formed during the war when the restrictions were removed because of the war by the Amalgamated Engineering Union. They said, "Because of the war, we will waive our ordinary rights, in order to get aeroplanes completed and to get the war won." If an employer is compelled to recognise a union of that kind he will, I say, be taking advantage of the public spirit of the Amalgamated Engineering Union in allowing this other union to function for dilutees during the war. I have been against the recognition of the Aeronautical Engineering Union on those grounds. That is one instance only of the difficulty that could be created by the acceptance of the Amendment. I do not know what answer hon. Members have to the taunts that were made by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne and his analogy about lawyers. I think there is a great deal in it. If you are a doctor, or a lawyer, or a member of the professional classes, you are compelled to be a member of your union. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes—you cannot practise unless you are.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: Is not the hon. Gentleman really aware that none of us professional men who have to pass a qualifying test to get admitted to a profession are in fact members of any union, except that in the case of lawyers we are members of one of four Inns of Court any one or more of which we are free to join?
Mr. Haworth: Some hon. Members are members of the Law Society, and solicitors are rejected if they are convicted of conduct prejudicial to that.
Lieut. - Commander Joynson - Hicks: If the hon. Member will allow me—there is no liability upon any solicitor to be a member of the Law Society.
Mr. Haworth: I am quite aware of that, but he is thrown out of his job unless he is a member of the Society.
Mr. Hogg: The hon. Gentleman is entirely mistaken. There is a professional qualification, which is judged by examination on admission, but it does not involve membership of a professional society. That is the whole point, and that is true both of barristers and solicitors.
Mr. Paget: That simply is not so. They cannot practise unless they are members of an Inn—
Mr. Hogg: That is just what I said.
Mr. Paget: —and they cannot practise on a circuit unless they are members of the Society.
Mr. Hogg: That is exactly what I said.
Mr. Haworth: It does not matter a great deal; it is only an analogy; but I do know something about the medical side of this question. I know that when I have been acting as chairman of a health committee, and we have offered a certain salary in an advertisement, we have been told by the Society of Medical Officers, for instance, "You have a population of so much, and you jolly well do not get a man unless you pay so much salary." They are very closely organised. I am not quarrelling with that, but what I want hon. Members opposite to try to appreciate is this. If they believe that this professional organisation is a good thing—I think it is a necessary thing—to ensure that you have the correct qualifications to carry out these jobs, it is a good thing in the trade unions. It is essential, for instance, in medicine. You cannot have people coming along who are not properly qualified, and it is a good thing to have these licences and certificates to ensure that they are.
Will hon. Members try to appreciate that, in the case of many trade unions,
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where you have to be apprenticed and serve for perhaps seven years before you are qualified, they have professional qualifications which they want to protect just as much? If I could draw an analogy, suppose a number of people said, "We will form another Inn of Court, and instead of 24 dinners we will have 12, and instead of four years' practising we will have two years, and we will try to get permission to work in the law." (Laughter.) I know it is a ridiculous analogy, but try to follow it out. There would be opposition from existing lawyers, and they would try to work the closed shop to prevent anybody else coming in. That is exactly what is essential on the trade union side, where people are qualified and their only certificate of qualification is their membership of a trade union. They are entitled to try and protect their interests, the investment of their life's training, which is their capital. They can only do it by having an agreement between themselves and the employers that any man performing those duties shall be a member of that trade union. I suggest that it is nothing unusual.
Air Commodore Harvey: Is the hon. Member aware that the Aeronautical Engineers, in addition to serving an apprenticeship, have to have a Ministry of Civil Aviation certificate to say that they are qualified?
Mr. Haworth: I have left them a long way behind, but I am told that that is not true. There is another instance which comes very much home to me because I represent a Liverpool constituency. At Liverpool docks there is an arrangement under which nobody is allowed to work there without being a member of the dockers' union, the Transport and General Workers' Union—and some of them do carry out Government contracts. They are regarded by many as unskilled labour, although, and I know something about it, I say it is a very skilled occupation. What happened there? During the depression everybody who was out of a job, a joiner, or an engineer, or a tradesman, drifted along to Liverpool docks in order to get a job, and the fellows who had spent their lives in the industry were thrown out of jobs very often for the benefit of people who had drifted there. For their own protection they decided that nobody

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should be allowed to work on the Liverpool docks unless he had a tally, and he was not to have a tally unless he was a member of the Transport and General Workers' Union, Liverpool Docks Section. You may quarrel with that, but it is defending their own life's interest, and if this Amendment is carried employers will be prevented from making such arrangements between themselves and the union.
There are many difficulties about this. It is not as simple as the mover and seconder of the Amendment seem to think, I hold views about the closed shop; it is not in Order to discuss the closed shop in general terms, but my own organisation is between the top and the bottom, and might suffer from the strictly logical carrying out of the closed shop principle. Therefore we view it with a good deal of doubt and misgiving, though it would be out of Order to pursue that. I do ask hon. Members, however, to try to realise that there is another point of view, that there is a case for an agreement, as the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. J. Edwards) said, an agreement not dictated by the Government—we do not want that in any circumstances whatsoever—between the trade union and the employer as to whom shall belong to which union for carrying out any particular job. That is all I wanted to say and I hope that hon. Members will feel that there is another side to it.
6.18 p.m.
Mr. Maude: May I first answer the point made by the hon. Member for the Walton Division of Liverpool (Mr. Haworth) about the legal profession? It can be answered quite quickly. If the contention is true that the legal profession is really a closed shop in the ordinary understanding of the word, then the boss of my trade union is the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General. It absolutely appals me at the moment to think any such thing. The right hon. and learned Gentleman does not regulate, by agreement or in any way, my wages; he does not look after my conditions of work, and I can assure those hon. Members, who make speeches pointing out to us that we do not know anything about life in a trade union, that if they came into our trade union they would be appalled at its ineffectiveness.
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I should like to take up some points which have been made in the course of the Debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister made certain observations which go to the root of this problem. He particularly drew attention to the fact that no alterations have been suggested in the wording of the Fair Wages Motion, and he argued that if the parties to the agreement had really been disturbed about anything of importance, they would have suggested alterations. He points out that the parties do not desire any amendment. The truthful answer is that this was agreed to in the year 1942—so long ago that the exact wording comes into the Industrial Relations handbook published by the Stationery Office in 1944. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) asks "Is it a new point?" It is not quite a new point, but it is almost a new point—the point of bigger and better unions. Now it has become a sore point, and that is the difficulty in which the right hon. Gentleman finds himself. I feel from experience that the point will never be answered, and that we shall have a sliding over and evasion such as we had the other day.
May I answer the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. J. Edwards), who is so anxious to establish discipline in industry, and who speaks of elements of compulsion being necessary? I would tell him that whereas tonight we shall accept the majority ruling, that does not mean that we have to join the Socialist Party-I will answer the hon. Member on another point. He said that the Opposition, by this Amendment, were trying to cut at the authority of the unions. It is not possible to find exactly what everyone thinks, but it was not the desire to cut at the authority of the unions, which made me put my name to the Amendment. I did it for two reasons. First, I believe that, as the wording stands, it will be used without any doubt whatsoever to curtail the freedom of the workers to choose to which union they wish to belong. Secondly, and I believe this is even more important, the whole movement which the hon. Member for Blackburn has been developing tends to inefficiency.
Mr. J. Edwards: Am I to understand that the hon. and learned Member thinks it would be a good thing in an industry to have two trade unions competing and

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fighting? If that is not cutting at the authority of the unions, what is?
Mr. Maude: The hon. Member may find it healthy within his own party to have a little competition. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am answering the question. It should not tend to inefficiency if there are two unions competing. Can anyone imagine anything more disastrous than what in fact will happen? The few big unions—already the hon. Member shakes his head before he hears the argument—
Mr. J. Edwards: I only want an answer to my question.
Mr. Maude: What, in fact, you will have is dissatisfied people within the big unions working up organs within the unions to disrupt them, because there will be a negation of freedom. The hon. Member for Blackburn was anxious to establish discipline within industry. He said there must be this element of compulsion, but the small union men will say that the Tories were right, and that it was the thin edge of the wedge which was agreed to on this October night. [Laughter.] It may not be so amusing. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne said that this was a sort of new point. I look back to 1945, when Mr. Ebby Edwards took the chair at the Trades Union Congress on 10th September. That is just over a year ago. It was not possible for the Minister to take the chair on that occasion, because he had come into the Government. Mr. Edwards said something which was profoundly true, in referring to the arrangements made in the cotton industry by the President of the Board of Trade. In praising these arrangements, he said:
"It was necessary for the unions on their side to overhaul and modernise their organisation, and abandon restrictive practices which impede maximum production and full efficiency."
Recently, I received a pamphlet, which no doubt all hon. Members have received, from the President of the Board of Trade, according to which we find that everything will be heaven if everyone will work a little harder. I am waiting to see what restrictive practices, both in regard to employers and workers, will be tackled. Some of us believed it would be done, but it has not been done. If Government contracts are so attractive, as the right
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hon. Gentleman says, because they are good advertisements, this is one of the ways of making oneself attractive to the Government. If they take that view it will be an extremely evil day, and responsibility will lie upon the Government. It is no good leaving it to back benchers to throw the ball to each other. The question is: Do the Government intend to say that in Government contracts there is an open shop, and that the employer, on no account whatever, is to be allowed to say, "You must belong only to one particular union"? If the Government do that, they might just as well roll up all the Statutes and start again. We shall see in a few minutes' time whether we shall ever have an answer. Personally, I doubt it.
6.29 p.m.
Mr. Awbery: I rise to take part in this Debate as a member of the big union referred to by the speaker for the Opposition. I have been a member for over 40 years, and have been an official of that union for 25 years, and so I understand something about trade unionists and trade unionism. I have listened very attentively to this Debate, particularly to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss). There was so much verbiage in his speech, he covered so many subjects, that he failed to touch on the main points in the Motion. Indeed, I felt that many times he went outside the terms of the Motion. The hon. and learned Member first dealt with the closed shop, as if closed shops were a creation of yesterday. Closed shops have been against trade unionists for a century. Many of our people have been struggling and sacrificing for years to open closed shops, so that they could organise their fellow workers. The hon. and learned Member raised the question of the London Passenger Transport Board and what they did recently in deciding to employ only members of one organisation. This Board, like many other employers, has negotiating machinery on which sit representatives of the workers' union. It is accepted that a man who is employed in that industry should be a member of the union which is part of the negotiating machinery. To allow men to stand outside the negotiating machinery, to be a law unto themselves, and claim privileges and benefits obtained by that machinery, is an unfair policy.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: Can the hon. Member say what would happen if a number of men were dissatisfied with the bargaining powers and general conduct of that union, and wanted to form a rival union, in protest?
Mr. Awbery: Hon. Members opposite do not understand the democratic working of the trade union machine. Members of trade unions meet weekly, fortnightly. or monthly, to lay down their policy.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: All the members?
Mr. Awbery: All who desire to attend their open branch meetings may lay down policy, and when that policy has been settled it becomes a policy of the trade union of which they are members. So we say that members must accept majority rule in the trade union movement, as is done elsewhere. Let us draw another analogy. Suppose 3 per cent. of the employees of an industry chose, because they were disgruntled, to break away and form a small union on their own. Members opposite ask that that 3 per cent. should be recognised as a trade union to take part in negotiating machinery, and get all the privileges. We say that that 3 per cent. are disloyal, that they are breaking up the unity of their organisation. The Opposition want units; we on this side want unity and will not be satisfied until we get 100 per cent. unity. We shall use every means we can, political or industrial, to see that 100 per cent. unity is achieved.
The mover of the Amendment made an attack on the big trade unions. Clearly, that is an indication that Members opposite are afraid of the big unions. To hear them talk, anyone would think that from the inception of the trade union movement they had given all the assistance possible to the building up of organisations among the workers. Instead of that, they have discouraged the workers, put difficulties in their way, have sacked them, imprisoned them, and even hanged them, because they fought for organisations of their own workpeople. Members opposite talk about the big trade unions. Why? Because the organised power of the working classes is becoming so great that they are afraid of it, just as they are afraid of the political side of this great organisation of ours.
The hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities spoke of
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the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Act. If it had not been for that Act I believe that the men of the London Passenger Transport Board would have taken action in 1937 10 prevent what happened then. But because of that Act they were hamstrung, and were unable to take the necessary action to remove an injustice Now that Act has been repealed. They are asking that that great injustice should be removed. Right through his speech the mover of the Amendment gave approval to what he called "splinter unions." He encouraged the formation of non-bona fide trade unions. Members opposite have failed to prevent unity in the trade unions, and now they want to create, within that unity, certain small units, so that when trouble arises the great units will carry the responsibility and the small units will take all the benefit. The hon. and learned Member said that workers are compelled to be members of a trade union. We say that if a man is not in his organisation he is, in practice, prejudicing it Last week, when we were discussing the case of a certain local authority, it was said that a contractor could not be acknowledged as a contractor because he was not a member of his federation. The same thing applies in the medical profession, in which a man is prejudiced because he is not a member of his professional organisation. We are asking only for the same right.
The Amendment should not be carried because when a union becomes a part of a negotiating machine, if that union is recognised as the negotiating machine, and employees join that organisation, it strengthens the hand of the employer and helps industry. I am confident that the Motion moved by my right hon. Friend meets the situation on behalf of trade unionists, employers and the Ministry of Labour. My right hon. Friend referred in his speech to what Mr. Sydney Buxton said in 1891, to the Act of 1909, to the Committee set up in 1937, and to the White Paper of 1942. The progress of working people since 1891 to date has not been easy; theirs has been a hard, laborious, task. Now, because we have achieved this unity, hon. Members opposite want to destroy it by creating within the united organisations small units, so that they cannot operate and carry the responsibility as they should do.
6.41 p.m.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: There have been times when I have risen in this House to speak on what I regarded, in my simplicity, as a point of law, and found opinion on the subject challenged by hon. Gentlemen opposite. I could not help thinking, as I listened to the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Awbery), that his view about those who speak on trade unionism was almost as undesirable as that which I sometimes have been tempted to follow in those cases. He seemed to think that no one should talk about trade unionism unless he had been for 40 years a trade union official.
Mr. Awbery: I suggested that the trade unionist knows more about trade unions, and the employer knows more about his profession.
Mr. Hogg: I think that one of the things which we learn in this House, and one of the most important parts of Parliamentary liberty, is the right of the layman, on any subject demanding special knowledge, to exercise his opinion and judgment. If there is one thing more certain than another, it is that the closely organised bodies of people who claim some special qualification always end by abusing their powers, and the one safeguard of liberty in this country is the right of the ordinary man to challenge their prerogative to speak on their own subject. I hope to be, as I always try to be, very conciliatory and relatively brief. But this Debate seems to me to have brought out one point with absolutely startling clearness, and that is the fundamentally divergent points of view of various hon. Members opposite on this Amendment. They all agree, of course, in opposing it, and the reasons they give are all very plausible. But those reasons cannot all be true, because they are fundamentally inconsistent with one another. If this Debate has brought out nothing else, I should have thought that it has brought out the point that a clarifying statement by the Government, as to the real attitude of the Government and their supporters on this matter, is certainly overdue.
This Debate arises out of one of the paragraphs in the Motion proposed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It does not, as some of the earlier speakers pointed out, raise the whole question of
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the closed shop. On the contrary, it arises out of the phrase in the Clause that
"The contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of trade unions."
My hon. and learned Friends have moved an Amendment to substitute the words "any trade union." The attitude of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) was admirable, I thought, in its liberal sentiment. His view was that the Amendment was totally unnecessary. He said that the words of the contract already protected the small union. It is perfectly plain, he said, that the word "freedom" means what it says, if the Motion is passed without any alteration. That was his argument. The contractor would be bound to recognise the freedom of his workpeople who belonged to the small union. If that were so, it would follow as a corollary that if he failed to recognise the freedom of his workpeople who belong to the small unions, he would lose his Government contract, because he would have broken the Fair Wages Clause. I think that we are entitled to know what is the Government's view on the Clause as drafted, without the Amendment. Do they think that it means that the employer will lose his Government contract if he fails to recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of any trade union? That is what, according to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, the Motion means without the Amendment. If so, I have no doubt that my hon. Friends will withdraw their Amendment as totally unnecessary.
But that was not the view put forward by other speakers opposite. There were two other mutually inconsistent views put forward by those who thought that the Amendment was not so much unnecessary as vicious. One was that put forward by the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth) and the other was that put forward by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. J. Edwards). The hon. Member for Walton thought that the Amendment was vicious because it was aimed at upsetting the professional qualifications which the big unions sometimes insist upon in order that they may have a proper standard within their profession. I am extremely partial to all organised bodies which insist upon a high standard of professional qualification and conduct, whether or not they are unions in the sense which hon. Gentle-

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men opposite understand them. Of course, that issue is not involved either in the Amendment or in the Motion. Everyone knows, for example, that the thing which differentiated the Transport and General Workers Union and the small union of tramdrivers in the recent dispute had nothing whatever to do with professional qualifications, because those who happened to belong to the small union were, by universal consent, as well qualified as those who belonged to the large union. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman is entirely mistaken in thinking that this Motion, as drafted by the Government, or the Amendment, as drafted by the Opposition, will either afford any protection, or threaten any attack, upon the principle of professional qualification.
Mr. Haworth: Will the hon. Gentleman agree that, in the case of an agreement between an employer and a trade union on professional qualifications, if that agreement were carried out and adhered to strictly, he would lose his Government contract because he was preventing a man from being a member of an outside union?
Mr. Hogg: That is one of the things which I am asking the Government. It is certainly contrary to the view of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. All that I am concerned with, in the brief argument which I am addressing to the House, are the broad merits of the case. For that reason it is quite sufficient for me to point out that the real issue between the two sides, in this case, has nothing to do with professional qualifications.
The speech of the hon. Gentleman the senior Member for Blackburn was supported on much the same lines by the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Awbery). His view was inconsistent with the other two. He did not agree with the view of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne that the Amendment was superfluous. On the contrary he thought that it was vicious, and supported the closed shop principle on its merits. On the other hand, he did not agree with the hon. Member for Walton in seeking to defend the closed shop principle on the basis of professional qualification. On the contrary, he did so because he thought—and he was quite frank about it—that it was a mark of maturity in society that it compels those of its members, if they are
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a minority, who are ignorant, wicked or recalcitrant to obey certain rulings. I agree that it is a fundamentally divergent position from that of hon. Members who sit on these Benches. I think that we are entitled to know from the Government which view they take. Do they adopt that of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, that of the hon. Member for Walton, or that of the hon. Member for Blackburn? Is their view based on professional qualification, or majority rule, or that the principle is vicious altogether, or that the Amendment is unnecessary because its principle is abrogated by the Motion drafted by the Government?
I return now to the speech of the senior Member for Blackburn. The hon. Member seemed to think it was enough to say that one union was smaller than another—that is to say, a minority—to enable it to be abolished out of existence by the competing union, and he sought to put his argument in two ways. In the first place, I think logically, in an intervention he asked us whether we thought it was a good thing that there should be competing unions within an industry. I think the answer is a simple one. It must depend upon how the unions are doing their work. If a union is in any given set of circumstances doing its work so well that there is no need for any competing body, we think it would be a bad thing, but we think it is for the workers in that industry to decide. If, on the other hand, a union is not to be above criticism, and if it sometimes happens that a union is becoming incompetent, overswollen or run by small cliques, then we think it is an excellent thing that a small competing union should grow up, and in each case we think the workers in the industry should decide which it is to be.
We are not impressed by the argument that one union is smaller than another. These things must have their beginning. How can employers or the Government determine whether a small breakaway union is, in fact, an evil thing designed to cut out lawfully constituted authority, or whether it is a good thing brought about by incompetence and bureaucracy at the top? Either may be true We say it is for the workers to decide. Hon. Members opposite claim that it is for the union bosses and the employers to decide. We differ on that point. That leads me to my last point. The hon. Member for

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Blackburn seemed to me to state quite clearly and in a compendious form the fundamental distinction between the approach to matters of this kind made by hon. Members opposite and ourselves. He seemed to think that the mere fact that a particular party in an industry constitutes a majority entitled it more or less to do what it likes.
Mr. J. Edwards: If the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) and his party hold the view he is now expressing, how do they reconcile it with, for example, the legislation in the cotton industry? Does the hon. Member take the view that on the employers' side people must always be allowed to contract out? He does not.
Mr. Hogg: The hon. Member has asked an interesting question which I should like to pursue, but I think that if I were to pursue it on this Amendment, I should incur your displeasure, Mr. Speaker. I hope to have an opportunity of discussing it with the hon. Member in public or in private at some other time.
Mr. J. Edwards: May I help the hon. Member? Let us suppose that the undertakings we are talking about were undertakings on Government contracts. Let us suppose there was a law which had imposed a levy intended for research. Does the hon. Member now say that kind of legislation is wrong?
Mr. Hogg: I do not think that an argument which was originally irrelevant is made more relevant by supposing a lot of hypothetical facts. Perhaps the hon. Member will permit me to conclude my argument, which I hope will be relevant to this topic. The hon. Member based his whole position upon the rights of the majority. Nobody denies to the majority legitimate rights in a constitutional country, but those who sit on this side of the House believe solemnly, and their belief, I think, should be accompanied perhaps with a warning, that there are limits to the rights of majorities in a free country. We see democracy as meaning not merely majority tyranny or rule. We see it as involving the definite rights of minorities, and we do not believe it will be preserved unless the rights of minorities are safeguarded and preserved by legislation. That is our view of the matter.
Mr. Haworth: Now that the hon. Member is in a minority.
Mr. Hogg: In any constitutional country we all of us find ourselves in opposition from time to time, and hon. Members opposite who now happen to be members of a great majority would do well to remember that time was when they themselves were a minority, and the time may come when they will be a minority again. The important factor to remember is that, whoever may be the sovereign in a country, be it a man, be it a class, be it a corporation of men, be it a vast majority of anonymous men, they disregard the natural rights of man at their peril, and notwithstanding that they may for the time being enjoy the suffrages of the populace, they will in due course learn to repent of their folly if, in the hour of their triumph, they fail to recognise those rights which, in the hour of their disaster, they may want to exercise themselves.
6.56 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards): It has been very significant throughout this Debate that we have had six speeches from the Opposition Benches from hon. Members who are themselves participating in a closed shop. In addition, we have heard speeches from one hon. Member and one right hon. Member who for many years have been using an industry which has had a closed shop.
Mr. H. Macmillan: Is the hon. Gentleman referring to me?
Mr. Ness Edwards: Yes.
Mr. Macmillan: I have not spoken in this Debate.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I thought the right hon. Gentleman spoke much earlier in the Debate.
Mr. Macmillan: Not on the Amendment. I have not spoken in this Debate.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I am referring to the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) in opening the Debate on the Motion.
Mr. Macmillan: That was on the Motion, and not on this Amendment. In supporting and welcoming the Motion in general terms, I protected my position and that of my hon. Friends on this particular point. The Parliamentary Secretary was quite wrong in his remark.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I take it I am quite in Order in referring to the speeches that were made earlier, including those that have taken place since the moving of the Amendment. As the right hon. Member said in his opening remarks, there is room in the House for a little chaff. I thought that in his speech the right hon. Gentleman showed the effects, not so much of the Empress Ball Room, but rather of the South Shore. He referred, I thought rather unkindly, to my right hon. Friend's trip to America. The patriarchal entourage to which he referred was rather smaller than the tribal entourage that used to accompany his right hon. Friends when they went abroad. On the other hand, I am sure we appreciate the general welcome which the right hon. Gentleman gave to this Motion. I noticed that when the White Paper was presented to the House, it was presented by the right hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank); it was accepted and put forward by the Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was a Member, and no criticism was indulged in then. It was not regarded as inadequate. It was not regarded then as not defending the rights of the citizen. It was accepted generally. Today, however, we find a new situation in which those who were responsible for the White Paper are now anxious to alter it in order to meet, I presume they would say, some other situation.
I thought the right hon. Gentleman was a little unfair when he referred to the generosity of private employers. He said that Government Departments could never go beyond the regulations, but that private employers, because they were masters of their own house, could give money away in excess of the agreement. I have had some experience of the mining industry, in which one could never get anything out of the employers unless it was provided for by a literal interpretation of the agreement. At one time we had many fights over that situation. Now I come to the hon. and learned Gentleman who moved the Amendment; I thought he was in danger of becoming the Mari Llwyd of the Tory Party. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is that?"] That is a little bit of Welsh. The Mari Llwyd of the Tory Party; he always appears to be put up by the Opposition benches for the purpose of frightening hon. Members on this side of the House.
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At least that is the impression I have. The hon. and learned Gentleman says that he is very much concerned about the freedom of the individual workman and that the employer should not say to which union a man shall be attached, and I tried to get the sense of the position he had taken up. I rather thought it was this. He was not objecting to a man being a member of a trade union; what he was concerned about was that the man should himself choose which trade union. The hon. and learned Gentleman is therefore with us to the extent that there is no objection to the employer compelling a man to be a member of a trade union, and to that degree the freedom of the individual is not in question as far as he is concerned. The limitation to which he objects is that the employer should decide which trade union.
I was rather surprised that the hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Liberal Party should allege that the Tories have taken their clothes again. After all, it was only half the liberty they were concerned about, whereas the hon. and learned Gentleman who moved the Amendment was concerned with the whole liberty of the man to do as he liked. Thus it is brought down to that narrow position so far as concerns the hon. and learned Gentleman who moved the Amendment. He went on to say that in his view objection to "splinter," unions is based on political grounds. I wrote it down as the hon. Gentleman spoke, and he said that objection to "splinter unions," in his view, is based, he suspects, on political grounds.
Mr. H. Strauss: The hon. Gentleman misunderstood me if he gained that impression. I said that the objection to some of these smaller unions was not to a "splinter" union at all but to unions which were not affiliated to the T.U.C.
Mr. Ness Edwards: If the hon. and learned Gentleman will consult HANSARD I think he will find that, although he may have intended to say that, I am correct in my impression that he did say that political grounds was a consideration in the objection of the big unions to the "splinter" unions.
Mr. Strauss: Perhaps to what the hon. Gentleman calls "splinter" unions but not what I call "splinter" unions.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I thought I was quoting the actual words of the hon. and learned Gentleman. In any case, it is astonishing that we have the position that "splinter" unions are receiving support from one side of the House only, and I am wondering whether that is on political grounds or not.
Mr. Byers: Does the hon. Gentleman believe in the rights of minorities or not?
Mr. Ness Edwards: I am at present dealing with the hon. and learned Gentleman who moved the Amendment. I will deal with the Liberals later on. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter)—
Mr. Strauss: Before the hon. Gentleman proceeds, I am sure that he will do the courtesy to me and to the House of saying whether he thinks my Amendment does make a difference or not, because the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) thought it made no difference at all, whereas the hon. Member behind him thought it made an enormous differance. I suppose the Front Bench has some view on the matter?
Mr. Ness Edwards: I have been speaking for only three minutes and I will come back to that central point later. I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that I have no intention of dodging the issue, but as he was rather incommoded during his own speech I hope he will not inflict upon me what was for himself a bad experience. We have had a number of speeches, and I had hoped that the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) was going to make a contribution. He will recollect that both he and the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) were very keen that employers under the Dock Labour Corporation should not have any liberty at all, and that they should all go into the Dock Labour Scheme. This question of the Tory Party defending the rights of individuals did not arise when we had the example of the Miners' Welfare Fund, where all the employers had to make a contribution and there was no contracting out at all; whether that fund was spent properly or improperly the restriction on their liberty was imposed. Let me take one or two other points.
It seems to me that the House has not taken into consideration the variety of conditions that apply in the various industries in this country with regard to
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labour relations. Great objection was taken to what is called the closed shop in relation to Government contracts. Do I take it that the objection applies to those shops, factories, or collieries in which membership of a trade union has been made a condition for the sack? Is that the type of closed shop hon. Members have in mind? There has been not a word of condemnation of employers who refuse to allow their employees to become members of trade unions.
Mr. Byers: We do.
Mr. Ness Edwards: That is a second thought. Then again there is that type of employment which is conditioned by the workers being members only of a benefit society run by the employers and where they must not belong to trade unions. There has been no condemnation of that. Hon. Members opposite have remained absolutely silent in that connection.
Mr. Hogg: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would have the courtesy to admit that the Amendment, if passed, would render all those things quite impossible.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not think so. I do not think it improves the position. What I am concerned about is that, to my surprise, this great concern has been shown on the part of hon. Members opposite for the freedom of the workers and for their rights. Of course hon. Members have forgotten their own past. They have forgotten the experiences for which they were responsible, the employments in which the employer set up his own union, made all his employees pay towards it, and shut out any bona fide trade unions. We have referred to these unions as "scab" unions. We cannot forget Taff, Merthyr, and Harworth. That was entirely a German method; its political organ was "The Patriot" which, I think, is well known to certain hon. Members on the other side of the House for its association with the Imperial Policy Group. I believe that the hon. Members for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) and Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) were the patron saints of that movement and Franco, Hitler, and Mussolini its gods. We have not forgotten these experiences and hon. Members on the other side of the House who were defending the introduction of these "scab" unions into the mining industry. I appreciate that that was at the time when the Tory Party was a closed shop as far as the

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right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was concerned and when even the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley was out of benefit because of something he had done.
We ought to get this matter clear. The type of closed shop to which we refer is illustrated in the printing industry, where, for many years, it has been a condition of employment that workers shall be members of a trade union. That system has operated for at least 20 years to my knowledge, and there has never been any allegation that there has been tyranny or that the system has not worked properly. Each man has been a member of a union. It has been a condition of employment that he should be a member of a union.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Of a union?
Mr. Ness Edwards: Yes, of a union, one recognised in the general set up, and not any other union. The worker was not entitled to become a member of a union outside the printing trade. He was limited to unions inside the printing trade. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman opposite will agree that hardly any industry in this country has so good a record in industrial relations as has the printing industry.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: There has been a break away.
Mr. Ness Edwards: There has been no break away. Take the South Wales mining industry. In that industry, membership of a union was a condition of employment for many years. It has never been suggested that the state of things there was unhealthy from the point of view of industrial relations. The situation with which the Amendment deals is that in which a rival union has been formed from dissident elements.
Mr. H. Strauss: No.
Mr. Ness Edwards: Yes. Some of the supporters of the Amendment took that view. I agree that they supported the Amendment in a very lefthanded way. I am trying to deal with them at this stage. Let us take the situation which exists in practice and not in theory. Employers' and workers' unions arrive at an agreement, and by a majority vote the workers accept the agreement. Some of them may not, and some of this minority
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of workers may, with political assistance, set up a rival organisation. The rival organisation works under the agreement negotiated by the parent body and gets all the advantages of the agreement, yet it claims the right to be recognised equally with the parent body. Suppose that, acting upon that precedent, a dissident body inside the dissident body, exercises the same right and that splinter is itself splintered. A condition arises in the industry which makes organised relations impossible and the position of the employees completely unenviable. It is a condition on the industrial field such as we see upon the political field within the Liberal Party. I would like to remind hon. Members of the Liberal Party that their cries for Liberal unity sound very much like a demand for a Liberal closed shop. The Liberal contribution to the Debate has been to ask for every man the right to refuse to do his duty and to get the same reward as though he had done it.
Mr. Byers: Nonsense.
Mr. H. Strauss: On the subject of "splinter" unions, may I put a perfectly specific point to the Minister? I would refer to the Smithfield Guild of Clerks and Salesmen, who have for years represented their members in negotiations with employers. They have represented the workers in certain grades of employment, yet there was a movement against them, and in favour of a closed shop, without any suggestion that they were in any sense a "splinter" union. Why does not the hon. Gentleman deal with that situation?
Mr. Ness Edwards: I am obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman for that interruption. Perhaps I may read what is reported in the official journal of the Transport and General Workers Union in respect of that situation.
Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: On a point of Order. Do I understand that an inquiry into this matter is still proceeding? Shall we be allowed to pursue this matter after the Minister's quotation?
Mr. Ness Edwards: I shall say nothing to prejudice the inquiry at all; I merely intend to state something which occurred before the inquiry was set up.
Mr. Hogg: Is this a statement put forward by the Government as an official statement? Is it not something which is contained in an ex parte document?
Mr. Ness Edwards: I merely wish to call attention, at the request of the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities, to a statement made by the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union as to the nature of that dispute. I hope it will be reassuring to hon. Members who are concerned about this issue. It says:
"Mr. Arthur Deakin said that for many years the Trades Union Congress had consistently rejected resolutions asking for the adoption of the closed shop. Our own union conferences had also rejected it many times, the last being the occasion of the Biennial Delegate Conference held at Blackpool last year."
From the information I have I would say that the dispute at Smithfield has nothing to do with the closed shop. That is my information. I have been reminded that the matter is now the subject of an inquiry. I do not think I ought to be pressed to say anything further on that matter.
Lieut. - Commander Joynson - Hicks: Before the Minister leaves that question will he tell us how the matter will be regarded in the agricultural industry, in view of the situation existing between the Transport and General Workers' Union and the Agricultural Workers' Union?
Mr. Speaker: We are discussing Government contracts.
Mr. Ness Edwards: I want to discuss the two points raised in the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member. During the war, by means of a joint consultative committee, the British Employers' Confederation, on the one hand, and the Trades Union Congress of workers, on the other, played a most important part in advising the Government on major questions and matters of common interest to employers and workers. They assisted in building up and maintaining an important system of collective bargaining upon which industrial relations depend. This joint association has continued to be of incalculable value to the industry and the nation, particularly in the period of reconversion. Steady growth of collective bargaining depends upon recognition by each side of the responsibilities which it carries and of the authority of the other.
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It is based on a mutual confidence and respect; upon confidence in the ability of the other to secure the due observance of agreements and respect for the views which it represents.
It is vital to the maintenance to the system of collective bargaining that nothing should be done to weaken the authority of the organisations of employers and workers who are parties to the machinery of negotiation; nor should any encouragement be given to any movement detrimental to the internal discipline of each organisation, or indeed to anything that may lead to a possible breakdown of the existing system. A dissident section who might wish to create dissensions within the organisation must be subject to the will and authority of the majority. Only where there is clear and ample evidence that the exercise of such a right is of disadvantage to the nation or the wellbeing of industry could any restriction be contemplated. In other words, this is a matter to be left to both sides of industry. In other words, it is the workers who shall decide on this position.
Let me reinforce that with these few words. Many of the differences between employers and workers are referred to the industrial courts or to arbitration. This system was of great help during the war, and also has assisted in the reconversion of our industry. Strikes and lockouts were the only alternative to this method of final settlement but this can only operate in a situation when all the employers and all the workers are prepared to accept the results of these arbitration tribunals. If it is known beforehand—and this seems to me to be the point—that groups of workers or indeed groups of employers will get political encouragement and legal sanctions to refuse to accept the findings and to organise new bodies to undo or nullify the findings, the whole of the arbitration system will break down and our economy becomes a jungle. Hon. Members of this House are under a special obligation in regard to this situation. We cannot lightly cast aside this industrial relations structure in order to confer on dissident elements rights that are not given to dissident elements in this House.
This Motion was produced in the time of the Coalition Government when the present Foreign Secretary was Minister of Labour. Full consultations have taken

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place with the British Employers Confederation and the Trades Union Congress, and this point was not raised at all on either side. In this Motion we are giving political sanction to industrial relations which have been agreed. It gives to both sides of industry the freedom to work out their own relationships. The Trades Union Congress, in our view, is quite competent to look after the workers' interests in this field just as the British Employers Confederation is competent to represent the employers.
The Government will watch the development of what is alleged to be a new tendency, but which in fact has been in operation over a wide field for very many years. There must be ordered relations between employers and workers. Minorities must accept the will of the majority and must not be encouraged to wreck the whole of our industrial relations. We must take the view that decisions between employers and workmen once taken must be honoured wholeheartedly by both sides. There ought not to be encouragement given to a set of people who do not like a decision to form dissident unions and then for this House to say that this Government or this Motion should confer upon those who are going to undo what has been done by arbitration methods this special legal right and legal privilege. In that sense, the Government are satisfied that this Motion—leaving this position open to the workers and industry to decide—is the right decision, and it asks this House to accept this fair wages Motion as fully meeting the present situation as we now find it in industry.
7.24 p.m.
Mr. Harold Macmillan: The Debate we have today upon this Amendment is the first opportunity which the House of Commons has had since its reassembly to discuss a question which, during recent weeks and months, has become one of increasing importance and gravity. It was right and proper that the opportunity should be taken. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway had already placed on the Order Paper a request for a day for a full Debate upon all the aspects of this matter but since the Government have, I understand, refused that suggestion, my hon. Friends and I thought it proper that without any
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attempt to score apoint or take a position over them, we should take the first opportunity in the House of Commons to raise this issue.
The hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Frank Byers) gave a very good account of the feelings which he and his friends hold on this subject. I do not wish to press minor points of controversy between us. He began with a jibe and I shall not take it up. I only say that we shall try to cooperate to ensure that there shall be every opportunity in this House for full discussions on grave questions of public policy in which full cooperation can take place between those who feel deeply on those questions. My hon. Friends below the Gangway need be in no way disturbed because of the discussion we have had today. The replies which the Government have made have been so jejune, have covered so small a part of the field and have given such little satisfaction to the House that it is quite clear that we shall require to have, whether the Government wish it or not, in this part of the Session, or the next Session, a full Debate upon the whole basis and implications of this broad question.
The Minister is a very elusive man; he himself does not speak on this great issue. He puts up the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us about the printing trade. I was surprised. I thought that if anybody was going to lecture me on the printing trade, it would at least be the head of Natsopa. The right hon. Gentleman was very shy. He was also very shy at Question time—[An HON. MEMBER: "He is very clever."] He is pretty cute, I will say that. He has learned a lot in America. He knew quite a lot about being a boss before. He did not have to learn that in America. He has learned what a closed shop means. He says it is an American expression imported into this country to embarrass the Government. All I can say is that we will draw him sooner or later. He will have to come out into the open and tell us what he thinks and means.
The Parliamentary Secretary has not yet told us whether he thinks this Amendment alters the meaning of the Motion and, therefore, should be resisted, or whether it amplifies, elaborates and clarifies the meaning of the Motion and, therefore, should be supported. He

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leaves us—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) interrupts a good deal, speaks a good deal and listens very little. I will come to him in a moment. I have never heard a Government spokesman winding up in a Debate on a great issue such as we have had today make a more feeble contribution than the Parliamentary Secretary. Talk about chaff—his speech was all chaff and no wheat. He has covered none of the great issues. He has escaped and eluded all the main points. Finally, he read out one of those great typed documents which are so excellently provided by the public servants of the State, and in it he solemnly tells us the Government will watch the development of this situation which is alleged to be a new tendency. They will take it into consideration. They might even take it into their serious consideration. Under Providence they might even take it into their active consideration. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"—
An Hon. Member: They may become fully alive.
Mr. Macmillan: They will never become fully alive; they were born dead. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) made, as he always does, a very good speech because he has got a knack of taking good points. I think he would not consider it unfair of me to say that he first raised the comparison between the professional qualifications of certain professions and the trade union qualifications of certain trade unions. He raised the point that this issue was somewhat paradoxically raised by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen behind me who belonged to what he called the most closed union in the world. I think myself the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) answered that point very well—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am only giving my opinion.
Let us try to consider this historically. Surely one of the great problems in this admittedly confused situation in the trade union world is just this very issue between the craft unions and the industrial unions, between a trade union which means that a man has served his time, done his apprenticeship, done what many of us sitting on these benches have done and what our fathers and grandfathers have done before us—taken very small pay for an apprenticeship of many years when better wages could have been obtained on an
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easy job, and then becoming journeymen with long knowledge and experience behind them. That is one form, the oldest form, of the trade union of the craft type. That is quite different from moving battalions or regiments of men, semiskilled or even unskilled, from one union to another, who have no training of any sort or kind similar to that of the apprentice or journeyman. They are really the unhappy bodies around which rotate and vibrate the jealousies of the great trade union bosses who are trying to get bodies of men in or out of their organisations. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That is the real problem today.
I will refer to the Smithfield case. The Smithfield Union has been going on for years perfectly happily and no one has interfered. It went on through the war carrying on its work, functioning under the Ministry of Food, under different Ministers. Nobody interfered with it for about 15 years, when, suddenly, there comes down a demand that they should all become members of this great new combination, this great monopoly, the Transport and General Workers Union. I am not discussing the rights or wrongs of that for it is under discussion, but I thought the way the Ministry of Labour dealt with it was a little disingenuous. They appointed Sir John Forster to hold an inquiry into the causes of unrest in Smithfield Market. I could have told him the causes of unrest. Everybody knows them. The causes of unrest were that the Foreign Secretary's union—for he has been really the Pierpont Morgan of trade unionism; it is he who has made the great combinations, sweeping all the smaller unions aside—the causes of unrest, I say, were that his boys were after the Smithfield boys.—[Laughter.]
Mr. George Wallace: I have heard more than one speaker tonight mention the Smithfield Guild of Clerks and Salesmen as a trade union. It might interest the House to know that I was approached at the outbreak of war to join this guild, and one of the questions put down was: Are you a member of a trade union, because if you are a member of a trade union, you are not qualified to be a member of the Smithfield Guild?
Mr. H. Macmillan: All I can say is that my information is different, but of course I must accept the hon. Gentleman's story,

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which is very moving. All I am interested in is what is called a trade union and recognised as such under Act of Parliament. In the course of this Debate there has been another example of what we are getting accustomed to in this House, and which gives us what is very gratifying, the illusion of power. I am referring to the extraordinary sensitiveness of the Government. One would think they were a small minority being beaten down day by day by strong, powerful people. They get up and say, "Don't be rude to us, it is not fair." The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, and some other hon. Members who interrupt so well and so helpfully, all have this extraordinary inferiority complex. They do not seem to realise that after this long struggle—and it has been a splendid struggle, a very moving one—they have a great responsibility. Do they accept the Attorney-General's assertion, "We are the masters now"? Or will they be partners? That means neither masters nor servants. Will they recognise their strength and not misuse it? On the answer to that question turns a great deal of the future history of this country. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, in the course of his very witty and clever speech, gave us a few good quotations. He always does that. He told us that the Government always did what they undertook to do, that there was no question of any breach of their pledges.
Mr. S. Silverman: No, I did not.
Mr. Macmillan: Oh, yes. And he said that because this particular form of words was agreed in 1942 by the Coalition Government, we ought not now to suggest—and I think the Parliamentary Secretary took the same point—even the smallest verbal alteration of that form. Quite a lot has happened in recent weeks. We are not bound absolutely by the form of words on every single detail. I think the right hon. Gentleman will realise that to the Motion we gave a broad and complete welcome and, indeed, tried to seize from him at least half the share of the credit, as we are entitled to do. Now we are debating these Amendments and we are quite entitled to discuss them. There will be other opportunities on the whole issue of what is called the closed shop and the rather complicated question of the different meanings that may be given to it either
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in America or even occasionally in St. James's Square.
My hon. and learned Friend who moved the Amendment made it quite clear that it was not intended to raise the point whether a shop should be unionised or not; it was not intended to prevent in any way the demand that everybody employed in a particular shop should be a member of a trade union; it was not even intended to raise the question as to whether the employers should deal in their ordinary negotiations with any except the majority union, or the union that had the broad control over the mass of the men. All it asked was that men should have the right to join those particular unions within the great gamut and field of unions, many in a single workshop, which they prefer. I think it raises in that way the subsidiary point whether the power of forcing men to belong to trade unions which happen to be affiliated to the Trades Union Congress and through that the Labour Party become the great supporting basis of the Labour Party—[Interruption]. Whatever the niceties through which it is sought to avoid that issue, they have been improperly taken over in order to support one political party in this country. The Government have tried to stifle discussion on this issue. At Question time two or three days ago the right hon. Gentleman made the most deplorable exhibition I have ever seen a Minister make in this House. The Government tried to refuse, through the power the Lord President of the Council has, to allow hon. Members below the Gangway to discuss this, although there is time before the end of the Session. They have tried to muzzle debate. But the time will come. We have taken this opportunity, and will take others. The right hon. Gentleman tells me that the term "closed shop" is just an American term which he does not understand. If it were in Order, I would give him a good old English word which he would understand.
The speech made by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. J. Edwards) I think alarmed not only his opponents, but his supporters. I do not want to overstate or make unfair use of what he said, but there was a tone of mind in it, an attitude towards life, which really frightened me. Perhaps I am too old to under-

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stand modern life and thought, but it really frightened me. I thought we had fought two wars about that. He tells us that the intractable and recalcitrant minority must always submit to majority vote. The minority must not make a nuisance of itself, and, he says, it has no right to exist. What about Belgium, or Holland? What about Palestine? How near to National Socialism, Socialism is becoming in England? Before they go too far, let them pause a little. Of course there must be give and take, there must be, as there always has been in the functions of this country, a reasonable amount of play—
Mr. Shurmer: It has been all "take" on your side.
Mr. Macmillan: In moving words, the right hon. Gentleman paid tribute to the conception of the functions of industry on both sides. Of course there are difficulties in the best organisations to attune it as the Parliamentary Secretary told us it has to be attuned. Through our long English tradition—and we do not forget this against any taunts that may be made—for certainly 100 years, since the Reform Bill, my party has been the minority in the House. For the last 100 years we have been the minority party. We have always been the minority party supporting the rights of the mass of the people against tyrannical power. In turn different forms of authority have seized and held power in this country, the King, the Church, the barons, the great industrial owners and magnates, the middle classes and now, maybe, the trade unions. In each period there has been a movement of revulsion against those who have taken power and used it too harshly, whether it was Cromwell on the one hand—[Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen know quite well in their own hearts that this needs not to be forced to its extreme but needs good judgment—if they like, good temper—the old traditional give and take and a great deal of commonsense on both sides. The great trade unions should not use their powers too strongly against the little unions, and the great organisations of employers should not use theirs too strongly against the smaller parties.
If this issue is pressed to the full, I fear we shall be either in this immediate period, or in years to come, up against one of those violent commotions which will undo much of the good work which
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the right hon. Gentleman and I have fought for and worked for in the last six years. I beg the Government not to turn this aside by the kind of speech we have been given by the Parliamentary secretary. Let us recognise the gravity of the position, and rise to the occasion and consider, before this next comes to the House, whether the Government will not take the opportunity to give us a true lead in a policy of commonsense in the solution of a deep problem. Failing that, I hope we shall all vote in favour of this Amendment tonight.
7.49 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: I thought this was a very narrow issue and that the only question was whether the words of the Motion provided sufficient freedom or whether the words suggested in the Amendment improve it. I thought we would be confined to that one question, as to which were the better words. Unfortunately, or fortunately, the Debate has taken a very much wider turn. But it still raises a major issue of vital importance, not only to the people of this country, but, seeing that this country has been the pioneer in regard to trade unions and a pioneer in regard to democracy, this is a vital question which will affect the position in the whole world. It cannot be dismissed or discussed as a side issue. I am rising at this moment to make that perfectly clear. This matter has been raised now for some months and it has been debated in the public Press. Unfortunately, the House of Commons has to wait for some considerable time before it can debate a matter of vital importance which has been discussed outside, instead of this House providing the lead on such an important matter. My friends and I put-down a general Motion to raise this issue. I even suggested it when my friends and I supported the Government on the Second Reading of the Trade Unions and Trade Disputes Act, 1946, because this is becoming a matter which is really important. I had thought in view of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, that this Motion being confined to Government contracts, and confined to this very narrow issue of paragraph 4, we would not have been able to raise this vital and constitutional issue. I do not think we can, because whenever any suggestion has been made that we were raising it there have been protests from the other side of the House that it was not

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being raised by what was before us today. Unfortunately the Parliamentary Secretary has used words which seem to show that he at any rate is in favour of bringing in compulsion as against the liberty of the subject in this country.
Mr. Ness Edwards: No.
Mr. Davies: He has called a breakaway union a "scab" union. He used illustrations just now in which apparently he was disapproving of a minority and what they might do. I hope that I am doing him an injustice. At any rate, let us clear this up.
Might I suggest to the Government and to all the Members on the other side of the House that when they discuss what the Parliamentary Secretary has been saying, they might again consult the Minister of Health on his views on the matter, which are far wider than those of many on the other side of the House, and to which he has given eloquent expression. I ask again that the Government should realise that this is a question which must be raised as a main issue in this House. I see no reason why it should not be done in this Session. It is not one which ought to be raised in the Debate on the Address. I should have preferred to hear the Minister's views. He opened the Debate, as he always does, in a most temperate manner, dealing only with what was in the Motion, quite rightly. Nothing has been said by him on these other questions which have now been debated across the Floor of the House. I wish to mention one. The Minister made a great point—I do not blame him for the fact—that this Motion was the result—
Mr. Speaker: We are discussing the Amendment, not the Motion.
Mr. Davies: With respect, Mr. Speaker, my point arises on that, because of the wording of the Amendment. I respectfully suggest that one of the reasons used against the Amendment is that this Motion has been agreed to by people who have done a considerable amount of work. They are the representatives of labour and of employers. But let us also remember that we owe a greater duty to the public than does any outside body, and it is for this House always to consider, before any regulation is made, the appropriateness of the words. We are the elected representatives of the people; we
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must take the responsibility, and it must not be put upon any outside body, however great and important.
7.54 p.m.
Mr. McAllister: It would be a great pity for the Labour Party if this discussion were to end without one member of the party expressing his agreement with what the Leader of the Liberal Party has just said. I am a Socialist. I have as good a record in this movement as anybody on these benches. I am a Scotsman, and the Scots have been taught all through Scottish history to cherish liberty—in the words taught to William Wallace by his grandfather:
"My son, I tell thee, soothfastlie, nae gift is like too liberty, then never live in slavery."
I was appalled that the Parliamentary Secretary, when replying tonight, did not reply to a simple question nor indicate that he and the Government realised that this was an important constitutional issue. I am not entering on the rights and wrongs of the question. I have not made up my mind on the question that is at issue—but there is a great issue at stake. I appeal to the Government to give this House an opportunity to discuss it in a proper manner, not merely as a side-issue on an Amendment to a Motion—to give us an opportunity to discuss it, because this House is Parliament, and because Parliament is greater than the Trades Union Congress and the Federation of British Industries combined.
7.55 p.m.
Mr. Isaacs: I think it is right, following the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) that I should say a word or two on the points which he has brought forward. I am not passing over what the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) has said, but the Debate has ranged very wide indeed, and I wish to confine myself to the words in the Motion as it is put before the House. I would like to deal with those points, and also with two or three of the phrases which the right hon. Gentleman used, especially his closing phrases. I have been twitted and have enjoyed it, with the fact that I asked the other day, "Tell me what you mean by the 'closed shop'?" We are now in no doubt what is meant by the "closed shop," but in my early days whenever I heard reference to the "closed shop"

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in my industry it was a shop that was closed to the trade unions, a shop where they were not allowed to enter. Therefore, my observation was not facetious. I genuinely wanted to know, though I might have guessed what was in the mind of the hon. Member who first raised this question. It is a question which has been discussed from many angles on the Amendment which is now before us.
May I draw the attention of the House to the wording of paragraph 4, which, as the Minister in charge of the Motion, I think is as clear as is necessary? It says:
"The contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of trade unions."
There is no definition, no restriction about it. It means, in my opinion, that if a man joins a union the firm has no right to say to him, "You must not be in a union." Later, there will come a question, as it is coming into the picture now, when an employer says, "I cannot recognise, for negotiating purposes, this big—or little—union because I have my relationship with other unions." This and other questions may arise. They are hypothetical at the moment. I hope the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) will not mind my referring to "hypothetical facts." I do not know whether facts can be hypothetical. But we are discussing a hypothetical question at the moment. There is no qualification there, no restriction. Workpeople are entitled to be members of a trade union. There is no drawing the line at all, and no question arises, as it might arise, as to whether there is something in the relationship of a particular firm with a particular union as against other unions which involves the question whether there is a breach of this Fair Wages Clause. Now, if the matter is not settled by the parties, it is to be referred to arbitration. That takes it right out of the sphere of the Minister of Labour himself. It takes it to arbitration proceedings, and in the main we have every confidence in the kind of arbitration proceedings which go on in this country.
Mr. Byers: Could the Minister clarify the issue by saying what is the position of a Government contractor who recognises and agrees to the demand of a union which wants a monopoly? Is that contractor to have a clean slate or a black slate with the Government? Is he right
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or wrong in recognising that monopoly union?
Mr. Isaacs: I do not know of a union demanding a monopoly in relation to a Government contractor. As we see it, the form of words in the Motion is one which the parties who knew most about this—the Coalition Government and the two contracting parties—thought to be the best words. They thought they were sufficient and we think so. I am not complaining that the Amendment to put in the words suggested has been moved as it has provided an opportunity for some of these fears and doubts to be expressed and will help to throw light upon the subject. We believe that the words in the Clause as it stands are the best, taken in conjunction with paragraph 3, which provides for an independent tribunal to settle the point. I think that for the House to act at this moment on the very meagre evidence and distorted information—not distorted as given by hon. Members opposite, but as it has come to them—would do a great disservice to the efforts that are being made in the trade union movement to keep things on the right lines. If we started giving expression to our views as to what ought or ought not to be the form of organisation, between one form and another—
Mr. H. Strauss: I think we ought to be clear what, in the Government's view, paragraph 4 means as it stands. In order that the Minister shall answer that I will put a perfectly specific question to him. In the view of the Government, is the London Passenger Transport Board at this moment recognising the freedom of its workpeople to be members of trade unions within the meaning of paragraph 4?
Mr. Isaacs: First of all, that is not the issue, and, secondly—[Interruption.] That question has not been put specifically in connection with this Clause. If it is put, it will be put to the Ministry of Labour and not direct to the Government. When it is put, it will be dealt with by the regulations and proceedings that we have. I am asked what these words mean. I think those hon. Gentlemen who have had a far better opportunity for studying words than I have, could see what they mean. We say they mean what they say and, at any rate, we are going to adhere to them. The right

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hon. Member for Bromley gave us a very entertaining little wind up. He said there was a good deal of chaff and not much wheat in what my hon. Friend said. In any case, the right hon. Gentleman gave us a little more chaff. We do not mind. It is much easier to listen to him than it is to tune in and listen to "Itma." It was most enjoyable. He said that there is admittedly a confused situation in the trade union world of craft versus trade unions. There is some confusion. It is no good blinking at that fact; but it is not on the basis upon which hon. Gentlemen seem to think. It is a question not of whether there should be an industrial organisation or a craft organisation, but a continual question as to where with modern processes a machine does the work of a highly skilled craftsman and the management want to use a semi-skilled man for the job. That sort of thing has been going on for years.
I want to say with the greatest possible assurance that there is no finer tribunal in the world for settling these issues than the trade union movement itself. There is established under the Trades Union Congress a disputes committee. I was myself a member for many years, and I served as chairman for eight years. Before this committee questions of the differences between the unions are brought, and in the main they are settled. There have been one or two cases where there has been an attempt to disagree with the decisions. There are differences, and these differences are better adjusted and settled inside that great industrial movement than by trying to argue them on some interpretation of a Motion of this kind or fighting them out on the employers' premises.
Mr. H. Macmillan: I think what the Minister said is very important. I would refer him to the Trades Union Congress settlements committee. There has been, within his knowledge, one very important dispute which held up the building of railway wagons for over 14 months before settlement was reached.
Mr. Isaacs: The right hon. Gentleman is seriously wrong in two points. Some work was held up for six months—
Mr. Macmillan: I thought it was held up for 14 months.
Mr. Isaacs: It was six months, and the matter was never taken to that body until the Ministry of Labour discovered that this dispute had been drifting on and the parties were not near to a settlement. The three parties were approached and they agreed to take it to that body. That dispute which had hung on for all that time was settled to the complete satisfaction of all three parties within a short time of it being taken there.
Mr. Macmillan: If the Ministry of Labour are not conscious of a dispute which held up the building of rolling stock, it does not seem to be a very good arrangement for settling these matters.
Mr. Isaacs: It seems to me that no matter how much good we are able to do, it will not be recognised. I have admitted there is some confused relationship in the trade union world between craft and non-craft unions. I have stated there is machinery existing to do that job, and I could mention hundreds of cases where it has been successful. I will admit that in some cases the proceeding is a bit slow and things do not move as fast as they might; but I would remind hon. Gentlemen that we have had to say that in the past even about Tory Governments. The right hon. Gentleman referred to another point when he spoke of the jealousy existing between trade union leaders. I know them all. I was not one of the great ones, I was one who was on the outside, on the periphery, I think it is called. There is no jealousy there. Believe me, there is a very great and sincere desire to weld the trade union movement into an organisation of service to the community. If hon. Members look at what they did during the war and the lead which they are now giving, they will see my point.
I want to correct another of the sentiments expressed by the right hon. Gentleman. He said the unions had become affiliated to the Trades Union Congress and thereby to the Labour Party. I assure the House that the Trades Union Congress has no authority, no way of inducing, persuading, or interfering with any trade union on the question of whether or not they wish to belong to the Labour Party. An examination of the list of members of both organisations will show that there are far more trade unions affiliated to the Trades Union Congress than there are to the Labour Party. The strange thing is that some which are affiliated to the

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Trades union Congress and not to the Labour Party are the most vociferous in saying what the Government should do.
I now refer to the final sentence of the right hon. Gentleman. I may not quote his words correctly but I have got the meaning. He said he hoped the Government will not force this issue to its extreme. That is exactly the point to which I wish to respond. It is not the intention of the Government to force this issue at all. It is the intention of the Government to secure this Motion and to see that it operates. I assure the House that if any of these questions arise as to the recognition of one union or another, they will not be dealt with by the Government or the Ministry of Labour. Certainly while it is my privilege to be at the Ministry of Labour, they will be referred to the properly constituted organisation for the
settlement of such questions. We do not want to force this to an issue. We want to see peace and good understanding even in those organisations where some men have broken away and formed another union. We know that some of these breakaway unions are formed because of deep convictions. We know also that some are formed merely out of pure cussedness. It is on the definite expression that this matter will not be forced to its extremes, that I hope the House will now reject the Amendment in the spirit of the closing words of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 266, Noes, 126.

Division No. 285.]

AYES

[8.10 p.m.

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Comyns, Dr. L.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

Haworth, J.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Alpass, J. H.

Corlett, Dr. J.

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Cove, W. G.

Hicks, G.

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Crawley, A.

Hobson, C. R.

Attewell, H. C.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Holman, P.

Austin, H. L.

Daggar, G.

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Awbery, S. S.

Daines, P.

Hoy, J.

Ayles, W. H.

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Baird, J.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Balfour, A.

Deer, G.

Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Barstow, P. G.

Diamond, J.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Barton, C.

Dodds, N. N.

Hynd, J. D. (Attercliffe)

Battley, J. R.

Driberg, T. E. N.

Irving, W. J.

Bechervaise, A. E.

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Durbin, E. F. M.

Jay, D. P. T.

Benson, G.

Dye, S.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Berry, H.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

Beswick, F.

Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

Bing, G. H. C.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Keenan, W.

Binns, J.

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Kenyon, C.

Blenkinsop, A.

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Blyton, W. R.

Fairhurst, F.

Kinley, J.

Boardman, H.

Farthing, W. J.

Lang, G.

Bottomley, A. G.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

Foot, M. M.

Leonard, W.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Leslie, J. R.

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Gaitskell, H. T. N.

Lewis, J. (Bolton)

Bramall, Major E. A.

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Lindgren, G. S.

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Gibbins, J.

Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Gibson, C. W.

Longden, F.

Brown, George (Belper)

Gilzean, A.

Lyne, A. W.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

McAdam, W.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Gooch, E. G.

McAllister, G.

Buchanan, G.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

McGhee, H. G.

Burden, T. W.

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Burke, W. A.

Granfell, D. R.

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Grey, C. F.

McLeavy, F.

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Grierson, E.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Chamberlain, R. A.

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)

McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.

Chater, D.

Gunter, Capt. R. J.

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Chetwynd, Capt. G. R.

Guy, W. H.

Mallalieu, J. P. W.

Clitherow, Dr. R.

Haire, Flt.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe)

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Cluse, W. S.

Hale, Leslie

Marquand, H. A.

Cobb, F. A.

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Cocks, F. S.

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Mayhew, C. P.

Collick, P.

Hardy, E. A.

Medland, H. M.

Colman, Miss G. M.

Harrison, J.

Messer, F

Middleton, Mrs. L.

Richards, R.

Titterington, M. F.

Mikardo, Ian

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Tolley, L.

Mitchison, Maj. G. R.

Royle, C.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

Monslow, W.

Sargood, R.

Turner-Samuels, M.

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Scollan, T.

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.

Vernon, Maj. W. F.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Viant, S. P.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Walkden, E.

Moyle, A.

Shurmer, P.

Walker, G. H.

Murray, J. D.

Silverman, J. (Erdington)

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Nally, W.

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Watkins, T. E.

Naylor, T. E.

Simmons, C. J.

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Neal, H. (Claycross)

Skeffington, A. M.

Weitzman, D.

Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Skinnard, F. W.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke)

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Noel-Buxton, Lady.

Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

West, D. G.

Oldfield W. H.

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.)

Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

Oliver, G. H.

Snow, Capt. J. W.

White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

Paget, R. T.

Solley, L. J.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Sorensen, R. W.

Wigg, Col. G. E.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

Wilkes, L.

Pargiter, G. A.

Sparks, J. A.

Wilkins, W. A.

Parkin, B. T.

Stamford, W.

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Steele, T.

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Paton, J (Norwich)

Stephen, C.

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Pearson, A.

Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Stross, Dr. B.

Williams, W R. (Heston)

Perrins, W.

Stubbs, A. E.

Williamson, T.

Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

Swingler, S.

Wills, E.

Popplewell, E.

Symonds, A. L.

Wills, Mrs. E. A.

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Wyatt, W.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Yates, V. F.

Pritt, D. N.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Proctor, W. T.

Thomas, John R. (Dover)

Younger, Hon. Kenneth

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Zilliacus, K.

Randall, H. E.

Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

Ranger, J.

Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Thurtle, E.

Mr. Collindridge and

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Tiffany, S.

Mr. Coldrick.

NOES.

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Armagh)

Haughton, S. G.

Nield, B. (Chester)

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Head, Brig. A. H.

Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

Hogg, Hon. Q.

O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Astor, Hon. M.

Hollis, M. C.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Barlow Sir J.

Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

Baxter, A. B.

Hope, Lord J.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

Beamish Maj. T. V. H.

Howard, Hon. A.

Prescott, Stanley

Beechman, N. A.

Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.

Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.

Birch Nigel

Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr. Hon. L. W.

Raikes, H. V.

Boothby, R.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Bowen, R.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Bower, N.

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

Buchan Hepburn, P. G. T.

Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Byers, Frank

Linstead, H. N.

Robinson, Wing-Comdr Roland

Carson E.

Lipson, D. L.

Ross, Sir R.

Challen, C.

Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

Sanderson, Sir F.

Channon, H.

Low, Brig, A. R. W.

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Clifton-Brown Lt-Col. G.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.

Stanley Rt. Hon. O.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Cuthbert, W. N.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R.

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

Davidson, Viscountess

Maclay, Hon. J. S.

Sutcliffe, H.

Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

Maclean, Brig. F. H. R. (Lancaster)

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A (P'dd't'n, S.)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Teeling, William

Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

Macpherson Maj. N. (Dumfries)

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Drewe, C.

Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

Duthie, W. S.

Manningham-Buller, R. E.

Turton, R. H.

Eccles, D. M.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Vane, W. M. F.

Fletcher, W. (Bury)

Marples, A. E.

Wakefield, Sir W. W.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Marsden, Capt. A.

Walker-Smith, D.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

White, Sir D. Fareham

Gates, Maj. E. E.

Maude, J. C.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G. Lloyd (P'ke)

Medlicott, F.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.

Mellor, Sir J.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Grimston, R. V.

Molson, A. H. E.

York, C.

Gruffyd, Prof. W. J.

Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Harris, H. Wilson

Neven-Spence, Sir B.

Cmdr. Agnew and

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

Nicholson, G.

Major Conant.

Resolution agreed to.

8.20 p.m.
Mr. Mikardo: I beg to move, in line 26, at the end, to insert:
"and he shall not do anything that may interfere either directly or indirectly with the exercise of that right."
One of the purposes of this Amendment is to stake a claim in defence of the liberty of the subject. We can, perhaps, judge how dear the liberty of the subject really is to the Conservative and Liberal Parties by gazing upon the population of their benches at this moment. Here is an issue in which the liberty of the subject is involved, but no political capital is to be made by hon. Gentlemen opposite, and since there is no political capital to be made all the attractions of the liberty of the subject do not seem to predispose them in the direction of taking an interest in this matter.
The purpose of this addition to the Motion, which may at first glance be thought to do no more than paraphrase the wording already existing, is to make the meaning and purpose of paragraph 4 clearer than it is, and to ensure a greater effectiveness in operation of paragraph 4. In fact, this Amendment seeks to reinforce the due observance of the fourth paragraph of the Motion and to prevent evasion of it by some employers who seek by indirect methods to obstruct, if not to prevent, the trade union membership of their supervisory, administrative, technical and similar employees. The operative words in the Amendment are "or indirectly," because while the firms to which I refer claim to recognise the trade union rights of their workers, they operate, as a sly and indirect method, an arrangement whereby they place the staff superannuation arrangements with a society which lays it down as a condition of membership that a member may not be a member of a trade union. In other words, they face their workers with a choice between belonging to a trade union, in which case they are denied the benefits of superannuation, or, if they want the benefits of superannuation, leaving their trade union under compulsion without any right to exercise the liberty of the subject in this matter. I would have thought that this fact would have been well known to hon. Gentlemen opposite. I would have thought that the Liberal Party would have received many letters about it—
Sir Ian Fraser: Would the hon. Gentleman allow me to ask him a question? In view of his appeal for help from this side, may I ask him in the event of my being able to secure, let us say 150 Tories to vote with him on this Amendment, could he produce 100 Labour men so that we can beat the Government?
Mr. Mikardo: I would remind the hon. Gentleman of the words of George Eliot who said that prophecy is the most gratuitous form of error. I will not guess how many Labour Members will vote for the Amendment, and the hon. Gentleman should not guess how many Conservatives will vote. We shall see who can claim the most support in this direction. We shall see to what extent hon. Gentlemen opposite are speaking for employers and employers' organisations. Employees in organisations where the employers subsidise the Foremen's and Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society are unable to get superannuation rights which their firms offer unless they leave their trade unions. It seems difficult to imagine that in 1946 it is still possible for an organisation to exist which debars trade unionists and nobody but trade unionists from membership, and it is also difficult to imagine that such an organisation can receive active support and subsidisation—financial and other support, in other words—from employers without a single protest from the benches opposite about the infringement of the liberty of the subject.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he has not made clear whether he is or is not referring to Government contractors—a material point.
Mr. Mikardo: This condition I have just described, which has been the subject of a great amount of grievance on the part of the people concerned, applies very widely in establishments in which Government contracts are held. Indeed, almost the whole of my experience in this matter has been gained in such establishments. I apologise, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for not having made that point clear before. In the light of this prohibition it is a very encouraging thing that many tens of thousands of men have, in the last few years, gladly given up superannuation rights worth very many pounds in order to exercise their freedom to join a trade union. It is not without significance that the highest proportion of

711
growth in trade union membership has been amongst the members of non-manual workers' unions, of staff unions, of the unions of supervisors, technicians, draughtsmen and scientists—the very unions that the Foremen's and Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society, subsidised by employers, exists to counteract.
The problem does not end with the man giving up his superannuation rights in order to exercise his right to be a member of a union. The problem goes deeper than that. There are many firms in this country—and I hope the defenders of liberty opposite will listen very carefully to this—in which the chance of getting a supervisory post, or the chance of being promoted when one has got a supervisory post, is made dependent upon membership of this fake benefit society, and hence is made dependent upon one leaving one's trade union. There are many firms in this country which are, in fact, closed shops, not to a trade union but to this spurious benefit society which debars trade unionists from its membership. What is more, this society is actively encouraging employers to recruit their supervisory staffs only from people who have shown their anti-trade union bias by being members of this benefit society.
Letters of application for supervisory and technical posts by applicants to prospective employers often have stuck in the top left-hand corner an appropriately coloured yellow ticket which says:
"We, the Foremen's and Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society, certify that this applicant is one of our members."
The Prudential Assurance Company does not give a ticket to certify that a man has an insurance policy with them as a recommendation for employment. In fact, what this appropriately coloured yellow ticket says is: "We recommend this man to you. You can safely employ him. He is not a trade unionist." In other words, this organisation is using its money to subsidise the closed shop, the shop which is closed to supervisory and technical workers who are members of trade unions. I know of one case where 10 members of a local branch of my own union were approached by the management and told that if they left the union and joined the benefit society promotion would follow almost immediately. I
712
know of another company, whose name is a household word, in which the branch secretary of a trade union was sent for by the superintendent who handed him an application form for membership of the benefit society, saying to him, "If you join the benefit society—which, of course, means giving up your post in your union—you will get an immediate rise. If you do not do so you can be quite clear that there is no expectation of promotion for you in this organisation." Finally, I want to quote a case—although I could quote very many more—of a very great factory not far from here in which no worker is promoted from the bench to the job of foreman unless he is a contributor to the Foremen's and Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society; that is to say, unless he has given up his trade union membership.
What this amounts to is simply that the attack on trade unionism, the resistance to the ever growing tide of trade unionism which employers, with the help of Members of the party opposite, carried on right through the 19th century and in the first years of this century, and in which they were defeated by the growing power of the great trade unionists—this attack has now been concentrated on trade unionism amongst the supervisory and technical staff workers; and they are behaving towards trade unionism amongst such people as foremen and draughtsmen in exactly the same way as, a century ago, they behaved towards trade unionism amongst their operative workers. I should have thought that employers, like everyone else, would have welcomed the increasing tendency of supervisory and technical staffs to join their fellow workers on the bench and on the machine in trades union organisation. We are all talking of greater incentives for greater output, about integrating everybody in industry, so that all may have the sense of a common purpose, and so on; and what better way is there for doing this than ensuring that all workers, whether they happen to work with a collar on or without whether they happen to work at a bench or at a desk, coming together in the same trades union organisation? Yet, in spite of this, employers, who cannot see that this development would be most definitely in their own interests, use this back handed, indirect method of obstructing, at the very least, the growth of trade unionism

713
amongst their foremen and their other supervisory staffs.
I was very sorry to hear my right hon. Friend say, when he opened the Debate earlier today, that he hoped the House would pass his Motion with no Amendment. I was sorry, in fact, to hear him make a suggestion which, in effect, damned this Amendment, without his having heard the arguments in favour of it, though I am sure he is as familiar with them, because of his wealth of trade union experience, as anyone else in this House. I hope he will not say that it does not matter; that, in fact, the wording, as it is in his Motion, will fulfil what we set out to do. The simple answer is that the existing Fair Wages Resolution has not prevented the operation of the Foremen's and Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society; and that the many unions that have considered this matter, the many unions affiliated to the National Federation of Professional Workers, the many unions that make up the non-manual workers' advisory council of the Trades Union Congress, who recently passed a resolution unanimously on this subject—these many unions have formed the opinion that, under the wording of my right hon. Friend's Motion, the Foremen's and Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society can continue to operate, but that, with the additional wording proposed in this Amendment, there is at least, a chance that we shall be able to fight this stooge, this sly, deceitful organisation, in open country and do something about it.
I hope my right hon. Friend will not advance the argument that this is an agreed document and that, therefore, we have got to accept it as it is. The fact is, as was pointed out by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), that it is the responsibility of this House to give the final verdict upon this Fair Wages Motion. That it may be an agreed document, I beg the Minister not to depart from his sympathies for the trade union movement—for which sympathies we all honour him—and to realise what is the attitude of the movement with regard to this matter. Every individual trade union which is affected by the existence of the Foremen's and Staffs' Mutual Benefit Society has gone on record against it. The National Federation of Professional Workers, which embraces all the non-manual trade unions in the
714
country, has gone on record against it. The Non-Manual Workers' Advisory Council of Trades Union Congress has unanimously gone on record against it, and I think I may add, without a breach of confidence, that I have evidence in the clearest terms that the General Council of Trades Union Congress—and I am going to use a deliberate under-statement—will not object to the addition to the Clause of the words which I am at present moving. This seems to me to be a case in which the Minister, who is big enough to do this, could go back on what he said earlier today, and consider this quite innocuous addition, which merely clarifies the wording of the Clause as he has moved it. It does no more than make it clear, and make it more difficult for people to use back-handed means to get out of doing what the Fair Wages Clause entitles them to do.
I feel extremely strongly about this, and I hope my feeling is shared by every trade unionist on these Benches. I do not expect any help from the Benches opposite, but I hope my feeling is shared by every trade unionist on these Benches who realises, whether his own organisation is directly affected by this matter or not, that an attack on any sector of trade unionism is an attack on the whole, and by every trade unionist who realises that this is the last fight—that the managerial, executive and technical trade unions are now trying to fight the fight which the bigger organisations fought so well and won so convincingly in their day. Everybody who really values the liberty of the subject, instead of paying lip-service to it for the sake of a newspaper headline, should lend his support. I sincerely hope that the Minister will say that he can accept this and that we can all agree about it, but if need be, if I were the only man in this House to do it, I would go into the. Lobby to show how strong is my feeling on this matter.
Major Vernon: I beg to second the Amendment.
8.38 p.m.
Mr. Isaacs: The case that has been made by the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo) set out particulars of incidents which have been well known to me for a number of years, and upon which, I agree, there is strong feeling amongst those affected. But we have to apply our minds here to the actual words

715
of the paragraph and to the situation as it presents itself, and not be swayed too much by our own personal feelings. The hon. Member referred to the Federation of Professional Workers. My own trade union has been associated with that for a number of years, and through that medium I have known a good deal about this matter, but it is not restricted to Government contracts. No doubt it might be prayed in aid against a firm getting a Government contract, but I am not quite sure how it could be done. In the first instance I do not think the form of words the hon. Member proposes would help the case he is putting forward. It says that the contractor—
"shall not do anything that may interfere either directly or indirectly with the exercise of that right."
I do not know, but it seems to me that it would be a lovely little point for the lawyers to argue, whether a contractor who has established a superannuation fund of this sort, and has made these conditions and said, "I leave it open to this man, he can have this job if he likes to join in with the society," has done anything that might interfere either directly or indirectly with the exercise of that right. In my opinion the Federation will be in just as strong a position or maybe stronger without those words, without being tied down to the definition, by relying upon the terms of paragraph 3. It says:
"In the event of any question arising as to whether the requirements of this Resolution are being observed,"—
I would point out that it says "requirements," and not "terms"—
"the question shall, if not otherwise disposed of, be referred by the Minister of Labour and National Service to an independent tribunal for decision."
What is to be observed?
"The contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of Trade Unions."
Whether in fact he imposes on them a condition when they take a job that means giving up trade union membership, would be a question to be judged on the facts of each particular case. I had to draw attention on the last Amendment to the fact that we were relying upon paragraph 4 without any definition or restriction. We say that the words mean exactly what they say, that there is nothing to
716
be added, and that we do not wish anything to be added. It puts the House in an awkward position, having asked the House to reject the last Amendment on these grounds, if I now accept this Amendment. I am sorry that I cannot accept the Amendment, but as soon as this Fair Wages Clause comes into operation, if the organisations, individually or jointly, can raise any question with regard to the operation in relation to the point referred to, I promise it will have immediate consideration, and that it will be referred to the tribunal mentioned so that a decision can be taken at once. I hope that in the light of this, the fact that we are most sympathetic—we know they have a real grievance—and are prepared to take this line, the hon. Member will not press his Amendment to a Division.
8.43 p.m.
Sir John Mellor: Does the Minister really mean that it is right for the House to be vague in its directions? Should not the House be as precise as possible, whether it be legislation, or instructions such as are contained in the terms of this Motion? It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman desires to leave the matter with a considerable degree of vagueness, so that when some difficulty arises he can refer the matter to a tribunal, leaving it to them to interpret the intentions of Parliament. In my submission it is our duty to narrow, as far as we can, any possible scope for misunderstanding of our intentions. It is our duty as far as we possibly can to anticipate doubts which may arise, and to secure that what goes out in text from this House, whether it is in legislation or in Motions is clear.
It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman is taking the opposite course. He is deliberately trying to leave the field of uncertainty as wide as possible, relying upon his tribunal to resolve the doubts. In my submission that is not the duty of the tribunal. It is the duty of Parliament to decide exactly what it wants. I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman does not quite know his own mind, and he therefore wants to leave it to the tribunal to make it up for him. Surely that is quite wrong and contrary to all constitutional principle. It is our duty to make up our minds on what we want, and it is for the right hon. Gentleman to assist us by telling us what the Government want. When we know what

717
we want, it is our duty to put it in precise language so that the possibility of litigation and references to tribunals is as limited as possible.
No one wants to involve parties to disputes in a mass of litigation. If Parliament can be precise much of that will be avoided. Tonight, the Minister seemed to take the opposite course, and I am very much surprised at that, because I should have thought that it was fundamental that we should do all we can to avoid unnecessary reference to the tribunal or litigation, or whatever we may like to call it. If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to assist the House by saying exactly what he wants, it will then perhaps be possible for us to get, on paper, quite clearly cut the decision of this House. Then, the scope for misunderstanding will be limited, and the possibility of protracted arbitration before tribunals may well be avoided.
Mr. Mikardo: In view of my right hon. Friend's promise, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Resolved:
"That, in the opinion of this House, the Fair Wages Clauses in Government Contracts should be so amended as to provide as follows:
1.—(a) The contractor shall pay rates of wages and observe hours and conditions of labour not less favourable than those established for the trade or industry in the district where the work is carried out by machinery of negotiation or arbitration to which the parties are organisations of employers and trade unions representative respectively of substantial proportions of the employers and workers engaged in the trade or industry in the district.
(b) In the absence of any rates of wages, hours or conditions of labour so established the contractor shall pay rates of wages and observe hours and conditions of labour which are not less favourable than the general level of wages, hours and conditions observed by other employers whose general circumstances in the trade or industry in which the contractor is engaged are similar.
2. The contractor shall in respect of all persons employed by him (whether in execution of the contract or otherwise) in every factory, workshop or place occupied or used by him for the execution of the contract comply with the general conditions required by this Resolution. Before a contractor is placed upon a Department's list of firms to be invited to tender, the Department shall obtain from him an assurance that to the best of his knowledge and belief he has complied with the general conditions re-
718
quired by this Resolution for at least the previous three months.
3. In the event of any question arising as to whether the requirements of this Resolution are being observed, the question shall, if not otherwise disposed of, be referred by the Minister of Labour and National Service to an independent tribunal for decision.
4. The contractor shall recognise the freedom of his workpeople to be members of Trade Unions.
5. The contractor shall at all times during the continuance of a contract display, for the information of his workpeople, in every factory, workshop or place occupied or used by him for the execution of the contract a copy of this Resolution.
6. The contractor shall be responsible for the observance of this Resolution by sub-contractors employed in the execution of the contract, and shall if required notify the Department of the names and addresses of all such subcontractors."

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  ROOSEVELT MEMORIAL [MONEY]
  Resolution reported:
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the erection in Grosvenor Square, in the City of Westminster, of a statue of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the expenses incurred by the Minister of Works in—

  (a) erecting and maintaining the said statue and laying out and maintaining the said Square as a garden; and

  (b) paying compensation in respect of the extinguishment of rights to use and enjoy the said Square,

  save in so far as those expenses are defrayed out of any fund raised under the auspices of the Pilgrims Society."

  NURSES AMENDMENT REGULATIONS
  8.48 p.m.
  Mr. Alfred Edwards: I beg to move,
  "That the Nurses Amendment Regulations, 1946 (S.R. & O., 1946, No. 1141), dated 17th July 1946, a copy of which was presented on 22nd July, be annulled."
  The House will recall that some months ago a Prayer was put down to annul a Regulation by the Minister of Health which provided for the protection of certain classes of people who are nurses, but who are not described as nurses under the

  719
  Act. When the relevant Act was in process of being passed in this House a request was made by people interested in the Christian Science movement that the Minister should use the powers he had to exclude certain classes of nurses from the operation of the Act. There are, under the Regulations, a good many classes of people who are, in every sense of the word, nurses. The Minister has used the powers given him under the Act to preserve the privileges of those classes of people, so that they may continue to nurse in the manner in which they have been in the habit of nursing.
  It was represented to the Minister, I understand, that the Regulation which authorised Christian Scientists to be exempted was slipped in through a loophole in the Act. So far from that being the case, I want to read a letter from a previous Minister of Health, after written representations had been made to him, which led to this exemption for Christian Science nurses. The Minister wrote to the Committee on Publication, which controls this kind of activity for the Christian Science movement:
  "The only way in which the Bill affects Christian Science nurses is that it prevents them using the title 'nurse,' unless an exception is made in their favour, either in the Bill itself or in the regulations which our Minister will be evoking under proviso (b) to Clause 6 (1). You urge that a special provision should be included in the Bill on this point."
  These are the words which I want to impress on the House. They are the Minister's words:
  "We have considered this very fully in the light of the arguments you put forward, and I am authorised to say that Mr. Brown is prepared to give an assurance that, when he comes to evoke regulations under proviso (b) to Clause 6 (1) of the Bill, he will include a provision to the effect that nothing in the Subsection shall prevent the using of the name or title of 'Christian Science Nurse' by a member of the Church of Christ, Scientist, who is certified (or recognised) by the Church to be qualified for employment as such a nurse by the members of the Church."
  That letter will, I think, in the view of all fair-minded people dispose of the argument that this provision had slipped in through a loop-hole, when, so to speak, every one's back was turned. Had we not had these written terms from the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland, we should certainly have moved an Amendment to the Act. The Minister gave an assurance that there was no inten-
  720
  tion to interfere in any way with the practice of these nurses. The present Minister has stated exactly the same thing—that nothing is to interfere in any way with the practice of Christian Scientists, or of Christian Science nurses. It is difficult to understand, if there is no intention to interfere with the activities of these people in nursing, why anyone should want to make an unfair discrimination against this class of people, who, as I hope the House will realise, have been practising as Christian Science nurses for more than 50 years. In the early days of Christian Science practice, had the practitioners who undertook the care of the sick by spiritual means made no provision for the care of people who were bedridden, I am sure that they would have come in for a great deal of criticism.
  It was always in the mind of those responsible for the conduct of this Church that there must be some provision to care for the sick, until more understanding is obtained so that cures can be made instantaneously—and no one professes that that is yet the general experience. The difference between us arises only when it is suggested that nobody should be allowed to practise and call themselves nurses unless they are qualified according to the standards of the medical profession. Anybody who knows anything about mental or spiritual healing, or Christian Science, will realise that it would be very difficult for Christian Scientists to practise nursing if they had to have the qualifications of medical practitioners or medical nurses. There is a vast difference. I could bring before a suitable inquiry many medical nurses and medical men who, because in their experience Christian Science has been much more efficacious, have turned from medical practice to Christian Science practice. Those people who have the qualifications are not in question, of course, because they will be allowed to continue; it is the people who, although they are not without adequate training, do not have the standards of training demanded by the medical profession. It is quite impossible to demand a medical training for Christian Science practice. There is so very little in common between the two.
  I hope the House will believe me when I tell them that, in an experience of 30 years, when I had little trust in this or anything else, and medical practice had failed to help me when I was near to death, I turned to this thing and it healed

  721
  me. I did not know how it helped me. I was like the blind man—"Whereas I was blind, now I see." Whereas I had been dying, now I was well. It would be a very serious matter if one compelled practitioners who were able to do that for me and for many hundreds of thousands of other people to stop practising, or to stop calling themselves nurses, unless they were up to the standard fixed by people who do not profess to know anything about this method of healing.
  I have been in heresy hunts with my right hon. Friend when he was not the hunter, and I am sure he is the last man in the world who would want to encourage or defend any heresy hunt. My right hon. Friend is perfectly sincere in believing that this Act was intended to give protection to nurses, and that the standard of the nurses was placed in jeopardy, but having regard to the fact that two previous Ministers considered this matter quite as fully as he has done and came to the decision that these people should have proper protection, it is going to be a little dangerous in our legislative practice if another Minister, who has probably not had the same evidence before him, reverses that decision, and still another Minister may come and reverse it again. I ask the Minister to institute an investigation into this thing before he does that. He was persuaded in his mind that the position of nurses was placed in jeopardy, in spite of the fact that many other people are exempted from the operation of this Act by the Regulations. To anybody who takes a fair view of this matter, there does seem to be unfair discrimination. I believe that there is in the minds of many people, although they say they do not want to interfere with this practice, a profound distrust of this kind of practice. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] An hon. Member says, "Hear, hear "; it may be of interest to the House to hear what a previous Archbishop of York said about this. Dr. Lang, addressing the Lambeth Conference, said:
  "The Christian Scientists have got something we ought never to have lost."
  That great woman Florence Nightingale, who founded the profession, was born about the same time as Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, and they died in the same year. When Florence Nightingale wanted to emphasise the essential part of the nursing profession, this is what she said:
  722
  "Nursing ought to signify the proper use of fresh air, light, warmth, cleanliness, quiet, and the selection and administration of diet at the least expense of vital force to the patient."
  I invite the House and the Minister to inspect some of the Christian Science nursing homes—or, as a concession to the previous Minister and the nursing profession, we call them "Christian Science houses" in preference to "nursing homes" so that there could not be any possible confusion. There was no difficulty in that case because in the Manual of the Mother Church, from which I want to quote, there is no provision for nursing homes.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I am very sorry indeed to interfere with my hon. Friend but I can quite see that if the present line he is deploying is to be continued we shall be here all night. The merits of Christian Science are not in fact under consideration, nor are the merits of Christian Science nursing. There is only one thing under consideration—whether in fact this Regulation which refuses to describe Christian Science nurses as nurses should be annulled. It is purely a matter of nomenclature.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): If the right hon. Gentleman had not anticipated me I was about to raise the point. I was however very loth to interrupt the hon. Member but I hope he will not go further with his discussion of the merits of Christian Science, but will confine himself to the particular point at issue.
  Mr. A. Edwards: I thank you for that correction, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. What I quoted came from perhaps the greatest nurse in history, who stated what she considered nursing to be, and I am trying to put it to the House that anybody who conforms to that description is entitled to nurse. I do not think that anyone is entitled to claim a monopoly on a word or name. If any body of people is to claim that nobody else may use a name, including a body of people who have used that name for more than 50 years in this country and have been registered as nurses during the whole of that time, I say it is a very serious thing indeed. I never thought, after the years I have given to fighting for freedom alongside my hon. Friends, that we should have

  723
  this freedom given to us by a Tory Minister and taken away from us again by a Socialist Minister. This is rather a serious matter and I wanted to try to show the connection between nursing as described by Florence Nightingale and as described by this Manual of the Christian Science Church. This is the only definition in the Manual, and it reads as follows:
  "A member of The Mother Church who represents himself or herself as a Christian Science nurse shall be one who has a demonstrable knowledge of Christian Science practice, who thoroughly understands the practical wisdom necessary in a sick room, and who can take proper care of the sick."
  That surely is conforming to what that great woman nurse required?
  Dr. Morgan: What sort of nursing training in a systematised established course does that Manual indicate is necessary in the case of a trained nurse?
  Mr. Edwards: It requires five years' thorough training in all the requirements of the sick room. When this change was made and conditions laid down under the Act, the board of directors in Boston at once revised and extended their requirements. There must be five years' proper training—but of course not medical training in the sense the medical profession would demand; but then the medical profession could not do the healing Christian Science does.
  Dr. Morgan: We are not referring to medical training but to nursing training.
  Mr. Edwards: On that point I would put a consideration to the Minister. Is there any doubt in his mind or in the minds of other hon. Members, that Christian Science nurses have as thorough a training, in every real sense of the word, as medical nurses? If there is, I invite the Minister to make an investigation. I can assure him he will find that thorough training is required, as thorough as any medical training, and for a period of five years. That is the time taken to qualify as a Christian Science nurse. I ask that there should be an inquiry also as to whether Christian Science nurses care for the sick as well as any body of people practising this healing art can do. We will stand by the result of that investigation. We have had testimony from many medical practitioners, and from medically trained nurses, that in our nursing homes,
  724
  or as we call them nursing houses, people are perfectly happy. I do not think the Minister can say that there has been any charge of negligence or any falling short from the standards demanded by the medical profession. In this country we have 300 churches, about 1,000 practitioners, and only about 40 to 50 registered nurses. I hope that the Minister will order an investigation, when I am sure he will find that to have good nursing under Christian Science treatment requires nurses who are sympathetic to Christian Science and not those who are antagonistic to it. When people are seriously ill they need all the help that they can get.
  I am sure that not many Members believe it would be possible for one who needed a medical nurse, to make the mistake of engaging Christian Science nurses. How would that be conceivable? We have offered to do anything possible by way of distinguishing the title "nurse," in a way which would make confusion impossible. No-one is allowed to practise as a Christian Science nurse unless qualified and recognised by the Department. They are not allowed to use the name at all otherwise. No sympathiser with the medical method of healing would say it would be possible to engage Christian Science nurses by mistake. We do not want confusion, and we have offered to go as far as possible. We have tried everything, short of stopping the use of the word "nurse," and we claim that nobody has the right to monopolise that term. We will do anything to satisfy this House or any impartial body. Is it fair that all these people who rely upon Christian Science because they have failed to get help under material medicine should be placed in this position? Many people did not go to Christian Science for healing until doctors had said that their case was pretty hopeless. Let me tell the House what happened to two personal friends of mine. One was laid on his back for two years with valvular disease of the heart. He commenced Christian Science treatment and was healed in a few weeks. While he was having that treatment, was he to be nursed by somebody who was antagonistic?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I really do not think that point arises. The question at issue is the name or title of Christian Science nurse.
  Mr. Edwards: The point is that this House decided previously, after a full investigation, that these people have a right to call themselves Christian Science nurses—
  Mr. Bevan: No, the House never did.
  Mr. Edwards: Surely the Minister, after full investigation, issued the Regulation? Is he not acting for this House?
  Mr. Bevan: For the country.
  Mr. Edwards: The regulations provide, anyhow, until they are reversed tonight, that it is perfectly right for any Christian Science nurse to practise as a Christian Science nurse and call himself or herself that. There is nothing to stop it. The Minister has proposed to reverse that authority. People who are being treated by Christian Science nurses and need nursing have a right to have available, and at their disposal, nurses trained for that specific purpose and in sympathy with them. It is true that this says that they shall not call themselves Christian Science nurses but does anybody believe that we are going to insist that they do not call themselves nurses and encourage the practice of nursing? There can only be one purpose for preventing the use of the name. There should be no confusion and people should not have the same opportunity of choosing these nurses. However unintentional the Minister is, he is being unfair. Other Ministers have made the decision and he is proposing to reverse what they have done. He is not being fair to himself if he does this without the fullest information being at his disposal. Why could not this be left a short time so that we might have an inquiry into the conditions under which these people practise, and if he is satisfied that they reach an adequate standard and that they are not jeopardising the position of medical nurses, let it stand. There is nothing unreasonable about that. I invite the Minister to make a full investigation. We will give every facility and abide by the result.
  9.12 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: I beg to second the Motion.
  I would like to indicate what has lead up to the proposal that this Regulation should be annulled. In the first instance, when the Nurses Act, 1943, was being
  726
  discussed, representations were made by officials from the Christian Science movement, I am informed, to see if some provision could be made in that Act itself for Christian Science nurses to practise in this country. I understand that a written undertaking was given to the officials, as has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for East Middlesbrough (Mr. A. Edwards), to say that these nurses would come under a regulation which would be issued at a later date, and that would cover the requirements which they were making. As a result of that, they did not press any further at the time the Bill was going through the House to have their particular requirements covered.
  In the Nurses Act, 1943, under Section 6(1), the Minister may make regulations to
  "authorise the use, either generally or by specified classes of persons or in specified circumstances, of specified names or titles containing the word nurse or the word nurse otherwise qualified in accordance with the regulations."
  Reading that, I believe that it was meant to apply to such cases as those represented by the Christian Science authorities. In that Act provision is made for the exemption of children's nurses. Children's nurses need not have the same qualification required of other nurses. This Regulation, which was brought in in due time, allowed for Christian Science nurses. As my right hon. Friend brought in that Regulation earlier, I take it that it received his blessing. It was laid on the Table of this House, and Christian Science nurses were provided for in accordance with the undertaking given by his predecessor.
  What, I think we may ask, has caused him to change his mind on this? Is it that he feels that Christian Science nurses do not justify such a title, or is it due to pressure and representations made by the medical nursing profession? I suggest that it is entirely on the grounds of representations that have been made to the Minister by the nursing profession that he has changed his mind. In view of that, I think it is as well that the House should consider what the attitude of the medical nursing profession has been on this matter. Various nursing journals have referred to "back door methods into the nursing profession" if the Regulation applying to

  727
  Christian Science nurses is allowed to stand. They say it might interfere with the recruiting of medical nurses, and they have even gone so far as to say that it might even tend to lower the standard of the nursing profession.
  The earlier Regulation was debated in this House as the result of a Prayer which was put down against it on 17th October last year, and the speeches made then tend to confirm that there is some definite hostility to Christian Science nurses on the part of the medical profession. If I may, I will refer briefly to the speech made by the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Linstead), who made reflections on the training of Christian Science nurses, which he compared adversely with the training required by the General Medical Council—
  Dr. Morgan: The General Medical Council has nothing to do with it.
  Mr. Cooper: I apologise, I should have said the General Nursing Council who, I understand, require a four-year training. The suggestion was made by that hon. Member that there was an injustice to State registered nurses, and also that to use the term "Christian Science nurse" would be misleading to the public. The hon. Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer) stated that every organisation connected with nursing was opposed to this one exception of Christian Science nurses, and I think he went on to say that it might cause a misunderstanding. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) said it was a travesty of the use of the word "nurse." I suggest that these remarks tend to show that there is hostility on the part of the medical nursing profession to the practice of nursing by Christian Science nurses, and it seems to me that the Minister is being persuaded by a hostile feeling on the part of one section of the community to the rights and the freedom of a minority.
  I believe that these objections are in point of fact unfounded, and that it can be shown that the actual qualifications of Christian Science nurses are as high as, if not higher than, those of the medical nursing profession. I suggest this because of the regulations applying to Christian Science nurses. In the first instance, they are very carefully selected. They must
  728
  in any case have a standard of education which is equivalent to the school certificate. They have to pass an interview by the Committee on Christian Science Houses which is already recognised by the Ministry of Health. The Committee on Christian Science Houses checks to see that these are kept to the high standard recognised by the Ministry of Health. Further, they have to go through two years' training in this country and, in addition to that, they have three years' training at one of the Benevolent Associations of the Christian Science movement in the United States of America. That makes up the five years, and during that course of training they have to learn the reasonable practices of sick nursing to ensure that they can take control in an emergency. I remember the hon. Member for South Tottenham asked what might happen if a patient had a hæmorrhage. A Christian Science nurse would know how to act if there was an emergency.
  Mr. Messer: May I ask my hon. Friend if it is not a fact that when I put that question, the reply I got was that the nurse would send for a doctor? If he is quoting, let him quote it properly.
  Mr. Cooper: I take it that in certain cases that might be done if the hæmorrhage could not be got under control. That may be a very wise procedure, but it tends to show that these nurses know how to act in an emergency. I will go further and suggest that this band of people, Christian Science nurses, would be very severely handicapped if they had to adopt some other title. In any case, the suggestion that they should adopt some other title is entirely due to the suggestion put forward that there might be some confusion in the mind of the public. With the qualification of "Christian Science" in front of the word "nurse," I suggest that there would be no such confusion.
  For what reason do the Christian Scientists wish to retain the word "nurse" as distinct from some other word? It is for the reason that, in the first instance, it has been laid down as part of the practice of Christian Science that in certain cases there shall be available Christian Science nurses. The words "Christian Science nurses" are used in the By-Laws of the movement and even if the Regulation goes through, there is no

  729
  chance of it actually affecting that phrase. In any case, it is laid down in the ByLaws of the Mother Church in Boston, America. The Minister must consider whether or not this Regulation is capable of achieving what it wants—to prohibit the phrase "Christian Science nurse" being used. Even if the Regulation should go through, the Minister would not be able to prohibit the phrase being used. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Middlesbrough said, there are some 300 Christian Science churches in the British Isles. Each week these churches hold testimony meetings of healings by Christian Scientists. In any one of these meetings the words "Christian Science nurses" might be used. The Church issues literature, and in this literature the phrase "Christian Science nurses" may be used. These churches each distribute some thousands of copies of literature in this country. The various periodicals of the Christian Science movement include a monthly "Journal," a weekly "Sentinel" and the daily "The Christian Science Monitor," which is circulated throughout the world. I have seen some hon. Members of the House reading the "Monitor," in the reading room. If the Minister wishes to prohibit the use of the phrase "Christian Science nurses," is it his intention to prevent the circulation of all this literature in this country?
  Again, there are lecturers who lecture to the public. These lecturers are announced in the Press, and reported in the Press. In any one of these lectures the words "Christian Science nurse" are likely to be used. I suggest that if the Minister adheres to the revoking of the existing Regulation, which recognises the Chrisian Science nurse, he will do a grave injustice to a most consecrated and most worthy, though perhaps small, band of workers in the sick room, who endeavour to bring to the sick the most sincere, most compassionate and highly qualified training, which is material in helping the sick to recover, and in some cases to recover when they have been abandoned as incurable by the medical profession.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I should make it clear that one Debate will cover the two Motions. They are in precisely similar terms.
  9.27 p.m.
  Mr. Wilson Harris: Unlike the two hon. Members
  730
  who have addressed the House, I have no association with Christian Science, and no great admiration for it, and I am not likely to apply myself to the study of the works of Mary Baker Eddy until the possibilities of the rest of the literature of the world are exhausted. My only interest tonight is in the question whether the abrogation of this Regulation is in accordance with reason and justice and commonsense. At the same time, as one who takes some interest in the evolution and application of the English language, I am rather impressed, perhaps I should say depressed, by the high-handedness with which a certain body of very estimable people want to arrogate the use of one particular common English word to their own purposes. After all, one cannot take a common English word and drive a stake through it as through a suicide at a cross road and say that it is to mean what one wants it to mean and nothing else.
  The original meaning of the word "nurse" had nothing whatever to do with tending the sick. It applied to those admirable women to whom so many Members of this House in the past owed their survival whom I still make bold to call wet nurses—though no doubt the right hon. Gentleman would prefer to designate them nowadays as practitioners in vicarious lactation, or something similar—and who constituted an invaluable bulwark, or shall we say breastwork, against infant mortality in past generations. The French, who are much more logical and sensible than we, in some respects, do not make the mistake of confusing the sense of this word. For the ladies who render the services I have mentioned, and also look after the children when they are a little older, they use the same word as in English, nourrice, while for hospital nurses they use the term garde-malade, sick-tenders. If we made the same distinction in English perhaps this Debate would not be necessary.
  However, the word has assumed this double connotation, and this use of the word "nurse" is now consecrated by two Acts of Parliament, that of 1919 and that of 1943. In that respect the earlier Act seems to me preferable, because it debars anyone from improperly using the term "registered nurse." I think that the House will agree with that; it is a perfectly reasonable proposition. The

  731
  second Act goes further, and debars anyone from using the word "nurse," apart from certain exceptions specified in the Regulations, one of which the right hon. Gentleman wishes to change. But, of course, it is a material fact that these Regulations were made by the previous Minister of Health. He laid it down in spite of this general prohibition that all sorts of people might call themselves nurses with qualification. We could have a trained nurse, a children's nurse, a mental nurse, a student nurse or we could have a Christian Science nurse. I cannot for the life of me understand what objection should be taken to the use of that term. At least, I can understand one or two objections which in fact have not been made. I could understand the two Archbishops and the four Houses of Con-vocation objecting to the use of the word "Christian" in this connection. I should not be astonished if the Royal Society and the British Association, and perhaps the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn), protested against the use of the word "science." But why the right hon. Gentleman or anyone else should object to the use of the word "nurse" in the phrase "Christian Science nurse" do not comprehend.
  In this matter it seems to me that the nursing profession is being even more exacting than the medical profession. There are those who sometimes think the medical profession rather unreasonable—not, I am sure, my right hon. Friend—but they do not narrow down the use of the word "doctor" to the extent that the nursing associations wish to narrow down the word "nurse." Take the case of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The fact that he can only pocket taxes and not attack poxes does not in the smallest degree limit his right to be termed Doctor. Nobody is in the least irritated or annoyed if that word is applied to him, except perhaps occasionally himself. By the same analogy, I think we may ask for a similar display of reason on the part of the nurses and on the part of my right hon. Friend who, I assume, in this matter is championing the cause of the nurses.
  There is another consideration which I think is not altogether irrelevant. Even if the Government Whips are put on—and I sincerely trust they will not be—
  732
  and this Regulation is annulled, practically everything that any Christian Science nurse could desire to achieve can, I imagine, be achieved in spite of that. Though Section 6 (b) deals with the rights of the Minister to make regulations such as we are discussing, subsection (c) reads as follows in dealing with the penalties for any breach of the regulations:
  "A person shall not be guilty of an offence under this subsection by reason only that, without objection by him, other persons use the word 'nurse' in addressing or referring to him."
  That is a very wide latitude which is conferred by that subsection. Any one in referring to a Christian Science nurse can call him or her a Christian Science nurse as much as they wish. If, therefore, "A.B." is a Christian Science nurse, there is nothing, so far as I can see, to prevent his or her friends from inserting an advertisement in "The Times" every day of the year extolling the virtues of "A.B." and saying what an admirable Christian Science nurse he or she is, thus giving him a publicity such as no Christian Science nurse would desire or seek. Therefore, if this regulation is annulled, nothing will be achieved except a certain display of perversity on the part of the nursing profession which, I hope, will not be supported by my right hon. Friend. I trust that after he has listened to the arguments advanced tonight, and after an appeal has been made to his sense of justice and common sense, he will consent to think over this matter again. I cannot see what conceivable good can be achieved by annulling this Regulation. It has stood for 12 months and cannot hurt any one. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give the Regulation another 12 months and during that time reconsider it carefully.
  9.35 p.m.
  Mr. Erroll: It is not often that I find myself in agreement with the Minister of Health, but on this occasion I do, though I do not agree with the Regulation at all. Surely, we are not to prohibit the use of a perfectly ordinary word and restrict its use only to a particular class of person. I speak as no supporter of Christian Science. I speak for the freedom to use a good honest English word, and I hope I will not be misunderstood either by my supporters or my opponents when I say that. When people come to me and ask me what

  733
  I am in ordinary life, apart from being a Member of Parliament, and I say to them that I am an engineer, they at once say, "What kind of an engineer? Are you a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, or a civil engineer?" They want a qualification, and I suggest that that happens in many professions and not least in the mining profession, with which, I believe, the Minister of Health is somewhat remotely connected. If somebody asked the right hon. Gentleman what he had been before he became a Member of Parliament and he replied, "A miner," he would be asked immediately, "What sort of a miner? A coal miner, a gold miner or somebody under the age of 21 years?" I say that with no disrespect to the right hon. Gentleman. I can appreciate that in South Wales they enunciate English rather better than Anglo-Saxons, and that that, undoubtedly, contributes very greatly to the Minister's success, if not in this House.
  The real point is in regard to Christian Science nurses and those who believe in using them—which I certainly would not think of doing and I wish to emphasise that point; it is that they would not like to be called by anything except by the term Christian Science nurse. That is a phrase which, to them, is all important. If you say to them, "You are only a nurse," they would say, "No, I am not a nurse; I am a Christian Science nurse." I do not really see why a person could not use the general term nurse, provided that a qualifying phrase is used in front of it, namely, Christian Science nurse, which is the qualifying phrase which all connected with Christian Science wish to use. They do not wish to use the term nurse, because it may denote a person nursing his constituents and a whole lot of other matters. The verb "nurse" is in very general use in political and other senses. The word is no proprietary right of some august body in Portland Place. It is a word used and widely believed in by the people of this country. If we accept this narrow restriction of the word, we shall have the hon. Lady the Member for West Fulham (Dr. Edith Summerskill) saying that only members, and productive members, of the Married Women's Association are to be allowed to use the word "mother," and I do not think anybody would like to see that happen. We must be clear in our use of the word.
  Dr. Morgan: Does the hon. Member use the word "mother" of unproductive women?
  Mr. Erroll: Most certainly, it would not in the least surprise me to hear of Socialist use of that word. If I may, I would suggest to hon. Members opposite that the original interruption was rather unwarranted. We are here witnessing yet another restriction on the people of this country; we are seeking to restrict the use of the very general word "nurse." I do not think that that is fair or right, particularly as the people who want to continue using the word are automatically going to use the qualifying prefix "Christian Science" because they are unorthodox and wish to distinguish themselves from the ordinary run of nurses. I sincerely hope that the Government will not put their Whips on tonight; I do not wish to see their cohorts tramping through the Lobby and trampling another page of English history in the dust beneath their heels.
  9.41 p.m.
  Mr. Messer: Much that has been said tonight would, perhaps, have been more appropriate in Debates on the Second Reading of the Nursing Bill, 1943.
  Mr. Erroll: Some of us were not here then.
  Mr. Messer: I know. If hon. Members speaking here tonight had been present in 1943 or had read the Debates they would have realised that there was a very real need for that Bill, now an Act, and that its main purpose was to protect the name of "nurse." Over all the long years that people have been struggling to make the nursing profession a real profession, the one thing that has been most in mind has been to get the name "nurse" accepted in connotation with a standard of nursing. We have been told tonight about the word "nurse" being a good old English one, but we have to remember that we now demand of those who train as nurses a type of training which is very much more than is really required. They have to learn physiology, anatomy and theoretical work which makes them almost assistant doctors and yet they are never called upon to use their knowledge. To become State registered nurses, they have to undergo that training.

  735
  Broadly speaking, there are three types of people who will be entitled to the name of nurse. One will be the listed nurse. She is the nurse who has had training and has the necessary qualifications, but who failed to get on to the register in 1919 or, as extended, in 1926. For certain reasons she was unable to get on to the register. The fact remains that she has the qualifications, but is not a State registered nurse. Then there is another type of nurse who does not attain the standard of a State registered nurse. She is asked to undergo training for two years to become an assistant nurse. She goes on the roll and becomes an enrolled nurse. The third is the State registered nurse who goes through the period of training and gets on to the State register.
  If Ernest Brown, as Minister of Health, had hinted during the passage of that Bill that he was going to produce a Regulation of this description, he would have found the House against him. I remember that when we were dealing in the Schedule with the list of people entitled to call themselves nurses, many Amendments were put down. If an Amendment had been put down saying that there should be a body of people entitled to call themselves nurses without being called upon to undergo the training recognised by the General Nursing Council, a body set up by Parliament, a statutory body and one charged with the responsibility of deciding what shall be the standard for nurses, the House would have been against it.
  Mr. Wilson Harris: Would the hon. Gentleman please clear up one point? I presume that Regulation was laid upon the Table for 40 days. Was it ever prayed against?
  Mr. Messer: If the hon. Gentleman had paid some attention to this question, he would know that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health inherited that Regulation, and it was not laid on the Table until this Parliament met, after the House had decided that it did not want Ernest Brown any longer. The Regulation was laid on the Table and a Prayer was made against it. That Prayer was withdrawn on the undertaking of my right hon. Friend that if some compromise or agreement could not be reached then he would take the matter in hand with a view to safe-
  736
  guarding the position. Attempts have been made to reach agreement. I want to pay this compliment to my hon. Friends who have made this Prayer tonight, that I believe they have striven for agreement. It is true that the General Nursing Council and the trained body of nurses themselves cannot agree, as a result of which my right hon. Friend has kept his part of the pledge. What I regret very much about this matter is that back door methods have been adopted. Those interested in this question when we were debating the Act had no idea that this correspondence was taking place between the Christian Scientists and the Minister of Health. I want to make it plain that I refuse to be bound by an undertaking given by a Minister of Health when I myself was never consulted with regard to what he agreed, and I do not think this House is bound by that undertaking. We had no opportunity of saying whether or not he was entitled to give that undertaking. He certainly cannot bind a successor to himself in this respect.
  The nursing profession, as everybody knows, is in a very bad state at the present time. It is difficult to get recruits. There are probably many reasons why that should be the case. My view is that it is not a question of money. There are plenty of girls who have the aptitude and the desire for this work, but they want to know that there is something at the end of their long period of training. They want what so many nursing reformers have wanted; they want to see it a real profession. Up to now it has not succeeded in attaining that status. They call it a profession, but it is not. The nurses say, "If we are to be regarded as people who have passed an examination after training over a period of years, we are entitled to the protection of the word 'profession'." It has been argued that Christian Science nurses are very clever, that they have a five year training—one year more than that of the ordinary State registered nurse. I know it is difficult when we are tackling these questions of religion, but why cannot a Christian Science nurse have the ordinary training of a nurse? What is there to prevent her coming into the profession?
  Mr. Erroll: May I answer that point? The answer is very simple—because she does not believe in that training, for better or for worse.
  Mr. Messer: The answer is the one I expected. As she does not believe in that training is she entitled to the title of those who do believe in that training? The whole question boils itself down to whether or not we are going to have a recognised standard, and having set that standard, whether we are going to prescribe those people who pass an examination before they can be known by the name of those who have attained that standard. I do not think there is any difficulty in regard to a Christian Science nurse if she has this desire to serve her fellows. Why should not she take that examination?
  Mr. Erroll: Because she does not believe in it.
  Mr. Messer: I know she does not believe in it, but if she underwent that training she would be a trained nurse, and nothing could prevent her then being a nurse. Whether she believes in it or not the truth is, once she is trained the public then have the protection of knowing that she has been taught to do the job. I know it is said, "But the Christian Science nurses do not practise on the public; they do not nurse the public; they only nurse the members of their own religion." This House has a responsibility, not merely to the members of the public apart from the members of that religion, but even to the members of that religion.
  I suggest that from another aspect this Prayer should be rejected. It cannot for one moment be believed that the General Nursing Council has lightly decided in the way it has The Royal College of Nursing, the General Nursing Council, the National Health Confederation, the Trades Union Congress—
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The closed shop.
  Mr. Messer: The medical profession is a closed shop. Although I might possess as much legal knowledge as a lawyer, I cannot plead in the courts because the legal profession is a closed shop. There are some things about which it is better that there should be a closed shop. In this matter I do suggest, it is not only the nurses but the members of the public who should be protected. What did Lord Ammon, when he was Mr. Ammon, say in this House in the Second Reading Debate, "This Bill is welcomed because it sees the end of Sarah Gamp, the Sarah Gamp who could call herself a nurse"? You
  738
  cannot open the door to the Christian Scientists and shut it to the Sarah Gamps. It is not because the Christian Scientists are Christian Scientists, but because it is a departure, because it would be saying, in effect, that all that has been done to prevent misuse of the word is now ended. We cannot open the door to the Christian Scientists unless we open it to everybody else.
  9.54 p.m.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): I think it would be for the convenience of the House if I spoke now. Perhaps it will help us to get away rather earlier—at least I hope so—than might otherwise be the case. I would like to remind hon. Members opposite in particular, that this is an Act which was passed by the last Parliament with the full support of all parties in the House. It was a decision taken by the last Parliament to accomplish the purpose so admirably described by my hon. Friend the Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer) to confer upon the nursing profession the status which the nursing profession has always desired. Therefore, it is not a party matter. This is an obligation laid upon me, as Minister of Health, by Statute.
  What was the situation as I found it when I took office? I found myself faced with a Prayer, moved from this side of the House and seconded from the other side of the House, last October; it was an inter-party Prayer to annul the Regulation giving exemption to the Christian Scientists. That was the situation in October. In other words, there was a perfectly proper cross-party opposition to the exemption being given at all. I was naturally anxious, as was everybody else in this field, not to be drawn into controversy about the merits of Christian Science. I wanted, as far as I could, to dispose of the issue in the most amiable and least acrimonious way, and, therefore, the hon. Members concerned agreed to withdraw their Prayer, to see whether we could not reach an understanding. If that had not been the case, the House would have been faced with a Division last October, and if I had been faced with a Division last October I should have advised the House to vote for the Prayer for the annulment of the Regulation. But I thought there was a possibility of reaching an understanding.

  739
  Several meetings have been held. I have given a great deal of time to it. I have met representatives of both sides, separately and together; but no compromise has proved to be possible. Obviously, if a concession had to be made, it would have had to be made by the Christian Scientists, because the Prayer was against them. But no concession of a substantial kind could be made by them, because this nomenclature is written into their covenant, into their sacred books; and, therefore, they found they could not do so. I was faced with the position that I had to give the House an opportunity once more of considering the matter. So, in fulfilment of the promise I made to the House last October, I had to make this Regulation.
  The House must recollect that the whole purpose of the Act of 1943 was to surround the word with sacrosanctity. The hon. Member the junior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson Harris), who has made a very witty speech, has forgotten that charter after charter has been given by the House of Commons in order to give a certain name a certain definite meaning.
  Mr. Wilson Harris rose—
  Mr. Bevan: May I finish my sentence? For example, the words "solicitor," "medical practitioner"—
  Mr. Erroll: Doctor?
  Mr. Bevan: "Medical practitioner"—all kinds of words. The hon. Member will not prove his point by saying there are words in the English language about which there is no charter. There are 40,000 words.
  Mr. Harris: The Act itself specifically provides for exceptions under the Regulations, and there are exceptions, most of which the right hon. Gentleman has accepted.
  Mr. Bevan: If the hon. Gentleman will permit me, I will deal with that point when I come to it. It is not relevant to what I am saying at the moment. We are attempting to constrain the English language. Every time we make a charter, and we give a specific meaning to a name, we do circumscribe it. That is the whole point. It is a necessary accompaniment to the status of the profession that the
  740
  name should be preserved with a definite meaning, and that other people should not, possibly, use it frivolously or irrelevantly. Here we are with a body of women—devoted, dedicated, hard working, absolutely indispensable for the care of the sick. I venture to say that in the care of the sick the trained nurse is as important as anyone in any other branch of the medical profession. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is not denied."] Hon. Members must let me finish. These women, these girls, resented the fact that after extremely arduous training, after their difficult examinations, they were known by a name which anybody could adopt.
  An Hon. Member: They were not.
  Mr. Bevan: Yes, anybody else could call themselves "nurses."
  Mr. Michael Astor: Would the right hon. Gentleman say, for instance, that a general in the Salvation Army could be confused with a general in the British Army?
  Mr. Bevan: Really, hon. Members opposite must attempt to face this very serious problem with something less than their usual frivolity. We are now discussing something which is extremely serious, and hon. Members must remember what the reaction outside will be towards this discussion tonight. It was therefore desired to surround this name with certain protections. In fact, if that were not the purpose, the Act need not have been passed at all. That was the purpose of the Act An hon. Member has said that power was given to make certain exemptions in the Regulations. Yes, but the language giving that power is extremely circumscribed, and I am certain that what my hon. Friend said is quite right—had it been known that the Minister of Health had privately given an undertaking to put an interpretation upon those words that enabled him to give exemption to the Christian Scientists, it would never have gone through the House at all. Quite frankly, I deprecate Ministers giving undertakings to influential people behind the back of Parliament. When a Bill is before the House of Commons and the House is debating it and placing certain constructions upon its provisions, it is altogether improper that a different and secret construction should be put upon it
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson rose—
  Mr. Bevan: The hon. Member should contain himself. He bubbles up all the time. There is nothing to prevent him from blowing bubbles. The position therefore was that I found that an undertaking had been given by Mr. Brown, then Minister of Health, in a letter which was not brought before the House of Commons. It is perfectly true that the Minister said that he was prepared to give the undertaking in public if he were asked to do so, but he was never invited to do so and so these people who thought that they were protecting nurses against something of this sort were themselves left without any protection. What are the exemptions? They are all exemptions within the hierarchy of nursing itself—mental nursing, trained nursing, in other words they are all different forms of nursing within the register. They are not extraneous categories.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Will the Minister allow me one question—Is it not a fact that some of these exceptions do not need to have the medical training which it has been suggested should be insisted upon in the case of the Christian Scientists? I think I would agree with what he said that the manner of this undertaking was rather unfortunate, but does he not see that had the Christian Scientists not had that undertaking, they would have had opportunities of bringing Amendments before the House?
  Mr. Bevan: We agree on how unfortunate the proceeding was, but my hon. Friend is resting his case on the fact that he had an undertaking, and I am saying that the undertaking has no validity, and that we should return to first principles.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Yes, but the undertaking—
  Mr. Bevan: It is an undertaking given privately by a Minister, and ought not to have validity. The House of Commons is master in these matters, and must remain master. This undertaking has put both parties in a difficulty, but I am absolutely satisfied, and any hon. Member who was in the last House can confirm this, that if the Christian Scientists had put down an Amendment to give this exemption, they would have been hopelessly defeated.
  742
  They would not have obtained for themselves an exemption that was denied to anybody else. My hon. Friend the Member for South Tottenham (Mr. Messer) was quite right. How can you grant this exemption to the Christian Scientists and deny it to anybody else? Where do you stop? Where is the Minister of Health going to be if I receive importunities from other sources? Any other organisations of a religious denomination can do exactly the same thing. There are a large number of them. Can they all come forward and ask for exemption?
  Let hon. Members opposite consider this. If you give this exemption, what is going to happen to the nurses? I have Questions on the Order Paper every Thursday, asking me why it is beds are not available, why hospitals are not sufficiently staffed, and what are we doing to provide accommodation and assistance for the long queues that cannot enter hospitals because we have not the staff. At the same time hon. Members are frivolously considering offending a whole body of people, and I ask hon. Members to be very careful what they are doing. One of the first things which happened to me, when I took office, was to receive letters of protest from nurses against exemptions given, in spite of every promise that their professional status would be upheld, and that they would not be exposed to more denigrations about which they had been protesting all their lives. It seems to me the case is wholly made out that this Regulation should stand. I warn hon. Members who walk into the Lobby and vote for this Prayer that they will have to tell me how this Act is going to be construed, and set frontiers on what the Minister of Health can do if he is to give exemptions of this sort because a certain body of opinion has influence and is able to lobby Members. Certainly I do not object to lobbying. It is a perfectly proper Parliamentary practice. Nevertheless, if you are to allow this exemption to occur in this case, where is it to stop? I shall have a stream of applications to pass regulation after regulation. The 1943 Act will be of no value at all, and a great body of fine women will have been deeply and mortally offended.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Have all these people who have exemptions been compelled to take the kind of medical training which the Christian Scientists are asked to take?
  Mr. Bevan: I do not know what kind of training the Christian Scientists are asked to take. I am not an authority on medical training.
  Mr. Edwards: That is not the point I put. It was put from the nurses' point of view that if these Christian Science nurses wanted to be called nurses, they should be willing to take medical nursing training. Have those others who have been exempted had to take a course of medical training?
  Mr. Bevan: They have to take a course of medical training prescribed by the General Nursing Council before they are entitled to use the term "nurse." There is no objection to any trained nurse practising any form of therapy he or she likes. We say, for the protection of the public, that people who describe themselves in language which purports to give them certain knowledge must have that knowledge. If they have not got that knowledge, the public is not protected.
  10.9 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Astor: This Debate started with the mover and seconder of this Prayer drawing two red herrings across the track. The former spoke about the efficacy of Christian Science, and the second about the efficacy of the Christian Science nurse. Neither of these two matters has anything to do with the case. Neither do I think it is of the slightest importance whether these good ladies are called Christian Science nurses or not. I have no sympathy with the Christian Science organisation but I am in sympathy with this Prayer because I believe that an important matter of principle is involved. That matter of principle is that legislation is being approved which, in fact, penalises one section of the community. I believe that to be a thing which this House, if it chooses to regard it as such, would in fact disapprove. The penalisation of this section of the community varies only in degree from generally baiting Jews, of which this country has for so long disapproved. That is the relevant argument, and any other arguments, to my mind, are entirely secondary. The right hon. Gentleman took it as an irrelevant interruption just now, but I still maintain it to be a perfectly good simile that if you are going to penalise these people calling themselves Christian Science nurses, where no confusion arises between the ordinary fully-
  744
  trained nurse and the other nurse—no confusion can arise, because one cannot ring up for a nurse and find a Christian Science nurse at one's door—surely, one could just as rightly object to a Salvation Army general calling himself a general. There is a last point I would like to make. I believe I am right in saying that this legislation cannot be effectively carried out in this country because the mass of publications on behalf of the Christian Science organisation have their origin in America, and whatever we say or do here this evening will have little or no effect on the publishing houses in America. I urge that this matter be reconsidered on those grounds.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: I intended originally to speak on the question of the Scottish Order, but both are being taken together, and I would like to ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, who must have had very considerable representations from Christian Scientists in Scotland on this matter, whether he is in agreement with what the Minister of Health has said. I am very sorry, but I do not think anything the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health has said tonight really alters the subject. The whole point is that this is a question of title. I hold no brief for Christian Science nurses. I have never had any experience of them. I am thankful to say I have had very little experience of any nurses. [Interruption.] I did say very little experience.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): The nurses have been very lucky.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: I must admit they have done their job well. I have the very highest respect for the orthodox nursing profession, as I think everybody must have, but I feel that if anybody is called a Christian Science nurse, there can be no question about whom one is referring to. The Christian Science nurse cannot be mixed up with the orthodox nurse, and I do not think any orthodox nurse could have any objection. One is an orthodox nurse and the other is a Christian Science nurse. This organisation has undertaken that it will use the words "Christian Science" combined with the word "nurse." Therefore, there can be no confusion. I cannot help feeling that the Minister of Health is being rather unreasonable in this matter.

  745
  I would like to know what the Secretary of State for Scotland has to say, because there is a great deal of feeling in Scotland on this subject
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood): I can give an assurance first, that I have had few representations from Scotland, secondly, that I am entirely in agreement with what has been stated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, and thirdly, with regard to the number of Christian Science nurses,
  as they are called at present, in Scotland, to the best of my knowledge they number only six.
  Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Does the number affect the question of principle?
  Question put,
  "That the Nurses Amendment Regulations, 1946 (S.R. & O., 1946, No. 1141), dated 17th July, 1946, a copy of which was presented on 22nd July, be annulled."
  The House divided: Ayes, 43; Noes, 245.

  Division No. 286.]

  AYES.

  [10.17 p.m.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Granville, E. (Eye)

  Nicholson, G.

  Amory, D. Heathcoat

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Astor, Hon. M.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Ranger, J.

  Birch, Nigel

  Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

  Sanderson, Sir F,

  Bossom, A. C.

  Harris, H. Wilson

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Bowen, R.

  Hobson, C. R.

  Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Turton, R. H.

  Chamberlain, R. A.

  Lang, G.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Channon, H.

  Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)

  Viant, S. P.

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Low, Brig. A. R. W.

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  De la Bère, R.

  Maitland, Comdr. J. W.

  Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith)

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES

  Erroll, F. J.

  Marsden, Capt. A.

  Mr. Alfred Edwards and

  Gibbins, J.

  Mellor, Sir J

  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  NOES.

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Coldrick, W.

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Cole, T. L.

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  Allen, A. C, (Bosworth)

  Collick, P.

  Grey, C. F.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Collindridge, F.

  Grierson, E.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Collins, V. J.

  Gunter, Capt. R. J.

  Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Guy, W. H.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Comyns, Dr. L.

  Haire, Flt.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

  Hale, Leslie

  Awbery, S. S.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.)

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Baird, J.

  Corbett, Lieut-Col. U. (Ludlow)

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Balfour, A.

  Crawley, A.

  Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

  Barstow, P. G.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Barton, C.

  Daggar, G.

  Harrison, J.

  Battley, J. R.

  Daines, P.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Benson, G.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hicks, G.

  Berry, H.

  Deer, G.

  Holman, P.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Bing, G. H. C.

  Diamond, J.

  Hoy, J.

  Binns, J.

  Dobbie, W.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Blackburn, A. R.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Donovan, T.

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Drewe, C.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Boardman, H.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Durbin, E. F. M.

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  Dye, S.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Bramall, Major E. A.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Keenan, W.

  Brown, George (Belper)

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Kenyon, C.

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E,

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

  Fairhurst, F.

  Kinley, J.

  Buchanan, G.

  Farthing, W. J.

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Burke, W. A.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

  Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

  Follick, M.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Foot, M. M.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Chater, D.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Linstead, H. N.

  Chetwynd, Capt. G. R.

  Gaitskell, H. T. N.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.

  Clitherow, Dr. R.

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

  Longden, F.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Cobb, F. A.

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Gooch, E. G.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)

  Parker, J.

  Thomas, John R. (Dover)

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  McLeavy, F.

  Pearson, A.

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Peart, Capt. T. F.

  Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)

  Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

  Perrins, W.

  Thurtle, E.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)

  Tiffany, S.

  Mann, Mrs. J.

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Titterington, M. F.

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Tolley, L.

  Marquand, H. A.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Randall, H. E.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Messer, F.

  Reeves, J.

  Walkden, E.

  Middleton, Mrs. L.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Richards, R.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

  Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

  Weitzman, D.

  Mitchison, Maj. G. R.

  Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Sargood, R.

  West, D. G.

  Monslow, W.

  Scollan, T.

  Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

  White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)

  Morley, R.

  Shurmer, P.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

  Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

  Silverman, J. (Erdington)

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Simmons, C. J.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Mort, D. L.

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Moyle, A.

  Srow, Capt. J. W.

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Murray, J. D.

  Solley, L. J.

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Nally, W.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Williamson, T.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

  Wills, Mrs. E. A.

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Wilson, J. H.

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Stamford, W.

  Wyatt, W.

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Steele, T.

  Yates, V. F.

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Stokes, R. R.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Noel-Buxton, Lady.

  Stross, Dr. B.

  Younger, Hon. Kenneth

  Oldfield W. H.

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Swingler S.

  Paget, R. T.

  Symonds, A. L.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Capt. Michael Stewart and

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Mr. Popplewell.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Mr. A. Edwards: I beg to move,
  "That the Nurses (Scotland) Amendment Regulations, 1946 (S.R. & O., 1946, No. 1144), dated 17th July 1946, a copy of which was presented on 23rd July, be annulled."
  Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: I beg to second.
  Question put, and negatived.

  SPAIN (FRANCO REGIME)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]
  10.27 p.m.
  Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: I should like to call the attention of the House once again to the very serious situation which exists in Spain, and to the dangers to which I believe that situation exposes the political and international prestige of His Majesty's Government. In a way I am sorry that Spain should be the first problem with which the new Minister of State has to deal in this House after his well deserved promotion. On the other hand, it does give my right hon. Friend the opportunity, if he can take it, to remember his own and our party's determined stand in the cause
  748
  of Spanish democracy and to assure us that the liberation of Spain has a high priority on the long list of unfinished business at the Foreign Office. I think that that, above all, is what we want to know.
  Spain is today in the grip of a tyrannical and degenerate Fascist occupation, an occupation put into power by Hitler and Mussolini. During the war her people, the democrats of Spain, prayed, worked, and fought as best they could for our victory against the Axis. But after that victory was won, while the treaties of peace were being drawn up by the triumphant Allies, the Spanish people were still left, cut off, isolated, and despised while the rulers of the civilised world declared that their detestable dictatorship should never be admitted into the family of the United Nations. Perhaps that is what hurts them most today—not the fury of the Falange, or the brutal practices of Fascist administration, but that they, the proud people of Spain, are outcasts in the world until the mock Mussolini who now rules them is overthrown.
  I went to Spain about two months ago. There has been some criticism of the method which I used, but that was the

  749
  only way, as I know my right hon. Friend agrees, for a Labour Member of this House to be able freely to meet his Socialist and democratic comrades in Fascist Spain. My right hon. Friend has seen a full report of what I did in that country. I am sure the House will understand that because the men who organised my journey to Madrid, Bilbao, Barcelona and many other places are still in danger of their lives, I can make no further observations on the details of my own visit, but it proved three things to me which I believe are very important. First, that there is a well-organised and efficient Republican resistance movement all over Spain. Otherwise I should never have been able to travel as I did. Second, that despite a record harvest, the end of the war, and what has been interpreted, rightly or wrongly, as a new non-intervention policy by the Western Powers, General Franco's position, even as things are now, is far from secure. Third, my conversations with the resistance leaders of all the democratic groups and parties convinced me that there is a general determination that a change must come quickly, and must come without civil war. Indeed, the ultimate danger of leaving the Spanish situation to fester, is not that Franco himself is a menace to world peace, but that the longer the dictatorship lasts the greater becomes the probability that it will end in bloodshed, and, more serious still, both for this country and for the Spaniards, that its successor will be another dictatorship of a different but very violent kind.
  I ask my right hon. Friend most seriously to consider whether the possibility of an extreme revolutionary regime in Spain would be in the best interests of that country or of our own. Because that is the real danger. Fascism breeds despair and exasperation, and if these go on as they are, one day Spain is going to blow up, and the forces that are loosed then will not be the forces of either democracy or moderation. That is the prospect that concerns democracy. The people are beginning to despair. Morale is becoming weaker, and the violent propaganda from abroad which attacks not only Franco but also Britain, and British democracy, is being listened to more and more every day. There is a great danger to this country in the inactivity, the apparent indifference, of His Majesty's Government towards the Spanish people. Two great
  750
  opportunities have been missed—the end of the war, and the electoral victory of the Labour Party in 1945—times when the Spanish regime was rocking on its feet, when just a little pressure might have brought about an easy transition.
  Nevertheless, it is still not yet too late to save democracy in Spain. This is a practical problem—the problem of bringing together the three chief elements which must cooperate if there is to be a peaceful change. First there are the organised resistance movements which need, above all, our encouragement—there are many ways of giving it—in their splendid work of keeping alive and united the cause of democracy in Spain. Second, there are the republicans in exile, an essential factor in the overthrow of General Franco. My right hon. Friend may have his own views about them, but let not the Government forget that they have a great influence, and that we have to guide and. strengthen them—not to hinder and belittle the part they have to play. Third, there are those elements, political and military, which unfortunately have great importance inside Spain, and which, though they are neither republican nor democratic, are prepared, once they see that the world is ranged against him, to abandon General Franco. To-day they are the men that hold the guns, but once they are convinced that the world and we in this country mean business, they will be as ready and eager, as they have been twice before, to compromise and collaborate with the opponents of Fascism.
  We must make our position clear. Words are not enough. There must be a threat of action, and if that fails, action itself, to convince Franco that this time he really is to go. There are many ways in which pressure could be applied. I hope that His Majesty's Government have been carefully considering them for many months past. The simplest and most effective would be economic sanctions. I have statistics which show that if sanctions were enforced, on exports as well as imports, they would not, for a number of months at least, adversely affect the food supplies of the Spanish workers. Whatever is decided about this or any other ways of bringing pressure to bear on the Fascist regime, there is great feeling in this country, and all through Europe, and I believe in all parts of this House, that something must be done

  751
  about Fascist Spain. It is our urgent hope that instead of obstructing and delaying, His Majesty's Government are going to take a new initiative in this problem when the Assembly of the United Nations meets. Those of us who are pressing my right hon. Friend today are doing so because we passionately believe in Socialism, in the Labour Party and in the democracy which we enjoy in our own country here today. We believe that this country can and should have the moral leadership of democratic Europe. We hate extremes. I have just come back from a journey right across Europe, and I know that Europe is looking to us for leadership, and longing for us to offer the alternative to both Communism and Fascism which we alone can give. That is why I ask my right hon. Friend tonight to give some hope and encouragement to the democrats of Europe and, above all, to our first allies in the war against Fascist domination—the democrats of Spain.
  10.35 p.m.
  Mrs. Leah Manning: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. F. Noel-Baker), I have just come back from Spain. Unlike him, I went there in the odour of sanctity, with a passport and visa, with the help of our Foreign Office. Because of that I was able to secure a picture of the situation there which, I think, is complementary to the picture that has been painted by my hon. Friend. A good deal has been said about the division among the resistance movements and their feeling about the Giral Government. I do not believe that these divisions exist at all. I had the opportunity of meeting resistance leaders in Madrid, and the only thing that I could find was that they would like to see the Giral Government strengthened by the inclusion of such well-known people as Senor Prieto and Senor Negrin. Apart from that, the only feeling that existed was the feeling of deep despair and the feeling that we had abandoned them, the first fighters against Fascism, who did so much for us and for all the Allied Armies during the war.
  Where I did find divisions was among those who were supposed to be supporting the regime. I have a background of knowledge and experience in regard to the political life of Spain during the past
  752
  15 years. I have had close contact with every Government there except the Franco Government, so I have had something against which I can place the picture of what I found in Spain. The gaiety and the splendour of the Spanish people have gone. Nobody who knows Spain, and who visits it today, can fail to see that the Monarchists are divided. Ask some Monarchists if they want Don Juan. Ask the Carlists, who have had years of fighting for Carlism. I do not know whether they have a Hapsburg on ice, but I know what they think of Don Juan. The biggest surprise is to find division in the Catholic Church, which, up to the present, has been united behind the regime. Today you have the Bishop of Seville sending letters to the Pope, signed by every priest in his diocese, against things which Franco is asking him to do. In the last week of our stay we had people asking us to bring to the notice of the Government of this country the way in which a Franciscan friar, who is a friend of all the people of Madrid, had been spirited away to prison, as a friend of the Communists, because he had dared to help the people who are imprisoned in the Franco prisons today.
  Look at the ordinary people of Spain. There you find the greatest change of all. "Café politics," it may be said. I know, but the cafe politicians are very divided. The people of Spain have had seven years of one Government, and that is something of which the Spanish people, with their Latin political ideas, are getting tired. Seven years of one Government is enough for them; they are ready for a change. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about seven years of a Socialist Government?"] Well, you will get it. You will probably get 20 years of Socialist Government. But I am talking about Spain, and what they have in that country. What Madrid has got is an armed man on every street corner—armed soldiers, armed civil guards, and armed police, all ready to drag people off to gaol on the least provocation.
  Mr. Speaker: Might I ask the hon. Lady what responsibility the Government of this country has for what she is talking about? We must relate our remarks to something for which the Minister may be responsible.
  Mrs. Manning: Mr. Speaker, the responsibility, as I feel it, arises in this

  753
  way, that if this Government did their job properly, we would have in Spain today a democracy, and we would not have the streets of Spain bristling, as they are, with armed police. Also, I am trying to show that there is a situation here which, if dealt with carefully, could be used to change the Fascist Government of that country, because I feel that not only is there a united resistance, but there is a divided support of the present Government. It is about that divided support—and this point, I believe, is complementary to what my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick has said—that I am trying to speak.
  If our Government would take the right line, if they would even take a lead with the United Nations, if they would support those who believe that the breaking of diplomatic relations and the imposing of economic sanctions would make a real difference, I am sure that we would have an end of the Franco regime. There are many people who are quiet about it, but who feel this way today. Believe me, this feeling that they are cut off from the rest of the world is having an enormous effect upon the whole Spanish people. They feel it a whiplash to their pride, because they are a proud and dignified people who do not like to feel themselves outcast from the rest of the world. Today Franco has not the support which many people believe. He has been all spring and early summer trying to build himself up, with his Minister of Labour, in all the provinces. He has the asset of one of the best harvests that Spain has had for many years. Why does he not take the opportunity, which everybody thought he would take, of having a plebiscite? It is because he is afraid to take it. It is because he knows the people are not behind him.
  I ask the Minister of State to try his very best to see that our Government, at the United Nations meeting on 24th October, take the step of initiating discussions on the report of the sub-committee of the Security Council and to see that it goes before the General Assembly because, in the General Assembly, there will be a chance that the necessary political steps will get the support of the majority of the United Nations. I ask him to consider the position in Spain today, and the possibility of making a change now.
  10.43 p.m.
  The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): There is a substantial measure of agreement between my two hon. Friends and the Government. The agreement is this, that we are of one mind in saying that Franco represents a thoroughly unpalatable and repugnant regime.
  Mr. Mikardo: We have heard it before.
  Mr. McNeil: Of course the hon. Member has heard it before, and it is being said again tonight. This Government have said repeatedly that because Franco's regime is authoritarian and repressive, because of his pro-Axis activities, and because he has failed completely in his first job of unifying Spain and ending the divisions and wounds which the civil war imposed upon that country, in our opinion he should go. We have made that statement publicly; we have made it plain by diplomatic representation. Secondly, we agree, as I understand, that we want that done without civil war. I was grateful to my hon. Friend for reporting the democrats inside Spain who say, as our information is, that they do not want civil war, and that they will strive to avoid it.
  But there the agreement ends. Someone behind me said "So what?" We have heard a great many phrases tonight about "taking a lead," and "taking a stand," and "being decided," but that does not take us any further. Three methods have been suggested by the hon. lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning). She hoped this Government would take a lead at the Assembly. I should enter a caveat here. Section 7 of Article 2 defines very clearly what can be done and what cannot be done in an internal situation which is not a threat to peace. I would remind the House that the sub-committee of the Security Council to which the hon. lady referred give as their opinion that the situation in Spain is not a threat to world peace. But when she says she hopes it will be discussed at the Assembly, I am completely with her, and would remind the House that it was not His Majesty's Government who, in the Security Council, prevented that step being taken. The second step she suggested was rupture of diplomatic relations. She did not spend much time on that, and I do not want to bore the House with an argument which is very old. It is worth remembering that

  755
  Franco has been hampered, so far as he has been hampered, by incomplete diplomatic representation, and he does not seem to have been badly crippled by that.
  The third step was also suggested by the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. F. Noel-Baker). He said that effective economic action should be taken against Spain which, for some months at least, would not affect the workpeople of Spain. I am most disappointed that he did not offer the figures to the House, because, of course, His Majesty's Government, and myself, have given considerable study to this. It is very difficult to believe that that can be done. There are two sides to the argument. This country would suffer slightly—not inconsiderably—if there were a cessation of exports from Spain. I have no doubt whatever that if there were reasonable grounds for believing that that behaviour would bring down General Franco, then the people of this country would agree, at any rate for a time.
  Mr. F. Noel-Baker: I would like to make it clear that what I said was that if there were a period of months of complete blockade of exports as well as imports, it would not materially affect the food supplies of the Spanish workers, because, as a result of this year's harvest, General Franco's programme, I understand, is to export a substantial amount of food. If that food is not exported, there will be more for Spanish workers to eat in Spain.
  Mr. McNeil: That is a very interesting argument, to which I see my hon. Friend has committed himself in print. He said General Franco intends to export olive oil. I cannot find justification for that. Indeed, there has been a request for a very limited amount, 250 tons, for medicinal requirements, and Spain would not accede unless some other edible oil could replace it. It is, further, true, that Spain will export some oil later—that is if she pulls off a deal which she is at present attempting to do. She has promised that if she can have some soya bean oil now, she will replace it with a similar amount of olive oil once the harvest is garnered. But that does not indicate that there is any exportable surplus. In 1933, which is a fair year, Spain had about 360,000 to 370,000 tons of olive oil. Last year it was 166,000
  756
  tons. That, I suggest, is the measure of her insufficiency, and it certainly seems to place aside the argument that she has oil to export and that therefore if we had an economic blockade, the people of Spain would not suffer, but would benefit as my hon. Friend suggests. A similar picture can be shown for wheat. Last year the estimated programme of imports of wheat for Spain was 1,300,000 tons. She did not get anywhere near that amount. She laid her programme for 70,000 tons a month, but for one month, at least, they were as low as 10,000 tons. I hope the improved harvest will mean that the people of Spain will have a higher cereal dietary, this year, than they have had for many years. Still, I know of no figures which would support in the slightest way, the suggestion that she means to export cereals. I would be very surprised, and very eager to reconsider my position, if figures of that kind could be produced.
  Apart altogether from the actual commodities, the business of organising an economic blockade is not easy. It would not be effective at all if this country severed or suspended its economic relations with Spain. We should have to organise a very wide community of nations taking in primarily the United States of America, Brazil and the Argentine. We should have to go on to recreate the system of navicerts which we had during the war. But it was not easy then, and we would need again a wide area of international cooperation to make it at all effective. The other thing which might be considered is a blockade in fuel oil, if we had international agreement on the subject.
  Mr. F. Noel-Baker: May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman? He is dealing only with the difficulties of the blockade. The minutes are slipping by, and instead of dealing with those difficulties, is he not going to say one word of encouragement to the Spanish democrats?
  Mr. McNeil: I suggest most firmly that this obligation has been placed upon me. I did not seek it. It is easy to talk airily about an economic blockade, and to chuck around phrases about "taking a lead." I am with the hon. Member, and so are the Government; and we have given consideration to the methods which we might employ to achieve the ends he seeks.
  Mr. F. Noel-Baker: Let us have them then. What are they?
  Mr. McNeil: I am facing the difficulties, but I must repeat that I am getting no aid from the hon. Member, who is criticising me because I reply to suggestions which he puts before the House. What support can we give to the people of Spain? If it is help we want to give them, then I am afraid we cannot do it through an economic blockade. Unfortunately the people we want to reach—Franco, his Government, his Ministers, his officers—have as a shield between them and us, the very people we want to help, and instead of helping them we would be hurting them. My hon. Friend is entitled to his opinions and criticisms, which I do not resent. But it is a speculative matter. It is not one of proof. I therefore feel that it would be a very grave step which could not be lightly or irresponsibly taken, and as far as I am concerned, I shall be no party to taking such a step.
  I doubt if there is an alternative Government available to Spain just now.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: It is outside.
  Mr. McNeil: To be an alternative Government outside is an unusual position for an effective Government. I am told that we had effective outside Governments during the war, but they were not Governments in the normal usage of the word. They were shadow Governments represent-
  758
  ing the elements which kept on fighting in these countries. We were supporting these people with arms and every kind of economic device we could employ. Does anybody suggest we should bump arms into Spain, because that is the alternative—
  Mr. F. Noel-Baker: That is not my argument.
  Mr. McNeil: That is not my argument, and it is not the argument of the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why send them to Greece?"] We are not sending them to Greece in the sense that they are being discussed here, and I am perfectly willing to discuss that topic here at any time. I doubt if there is an alternative Government inside Spain just now. I hope that what the hon. Lady the Member for Epping says—that there are signs emerging—is true. When they emerge, the Spanish people will not need much help, but what they need in these circumstances, they can have from this Government.
  It being half an hour after the conclusion of Business exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, as modified for this Session by the Order made upon 16th August.
  Adjourned at Three Minutes before Eleven o'Clock.

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  Exports (Packing Materials)
  Exports (Packing Materials)
  Hosiery Industry
  Hosiery Industry
INDIA
  Food Situation
  Food Situation
  British Civilian Services
  British Civilian Services
  Weapons and Ammunition
  Weapons and Ammunition
  Government (Oaths and Affirmations)
  Government (Oaths and Affirmations)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Milk Filtering Mediums
  Milk Filtering Mediums
  Home-grown Vegetables (Crates)
  Home-grown Vegetables (Crates)
  Pilchards (Exports to Italy)
  Pilchards (Exports to Italy)
  Tomatoes (Packing Materials)
  Tomatoes (Packing Materials)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Overseas Gift Parcels (Confiscation)
  Overseas Gift Parcels (Confiscation)
  Anglo-Argentine Agreement
  Anglo-Argentine Agreement
  War Damage Payments (Reconstruction Areas)
  War Damage Payments (Reconstruction Areas)
FUEL AND POWER
  Shop-Window Lighting (Restrictions)
  Shop-Window Lighting (Restrictions)
  Conversion to Oil (Government Assistance)
  Conversion to Oil (Government Assistance)
  NAVAL DEPOT, LONGTOWN (AMMUNITION BOXES)
  NAVAL DEPOT, LONGTOWN (AMMUNITION BOXES)
HOUSING
  Garage Sites
  Garage Sites
  Stroud and Dursley
  Stroud and Dursley
  Kettering and Brixworth
  Kettering and Brixworth
  Electric Appliances
  Electric Appliances
  Overtime Working
  Overtime Working
  UNIVERSITY OF LONDON INSTITUTE OF EDUCATION (PREMISES)
  UNIVERSITY OF LONDON INSTITUTE OF EDUCATION (PREMISES)
  JAPANESE WAR CRIMES (TRIALS, PUBLICITY)
  JAPANESE WAR CRIMES (TRIALS, PUBLICITY)
BRITISH ARMY
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
  Far East Service (Decoration)
  Far East Service (Decoration)
NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Family Allowance
  Family Allowance
  Old Age Pensions (Order Books)
  Old Age Pensions (Order Books)
  PRISON SERVICE (AUXILIARY OFFICERS)
  PRISON SERVICE (AUXILIARY OFFICERS)
  ALIENS (NATURALISATION CERTIFICATES)
  ALIENS (NATURALISATION CERTIFICATES)
  EMPLOYMENT, BLACKBURN (DISABLED MEN)
  EMPLOYMENT, BLACKBURN (DISABLED MEN)
  EDUCATION (PRIMARY SCHOOL, TREGONEY)
  EDUCATION (PRIMARY SCHOOL, TREGONEY)
  PASSPORTS AND VISAS
  PASSPORTS AND VISAS
  TRIPARTITE NEGOTIATIONS, MOSCOW, 1939
  TRIPARTITE NEGOTIATIONS, MOSCOW, 1939

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock. The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion relating to business that stands in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXI be considered in order to its being dispensed with for this day's sitting; and that the Consideration of the Commons Message relating to the Roosevelt Memorial Bill have precedence over the other Notices and Orders of the Day.—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

ROOSEVELT MEMORIAL BILL.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Message of Friday last, read.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands in my name at the foot of the Order Paper. This Motion has been put down because, while the Bill of course requires the assent of both Houses, I am sure it is most appropriate and right for the consideration of a Hybrid Bill of this entirely non-contentious kind that you should have recourse to a Joint Committee of the two Houses. I may inform your Lordships that a Bill of this nature is necessary, as will be seen from its contents, because certain matters affecting private rights in Grosvenor Square have to be dealt with. For the present I hope your Lordships will be willing to take this formal step. The Bill will come before us in due course after it has been dealt with by the other House. Then will be the occasion for the tributes which I am sure we are all anxious to pay to the purpose behind the Bill. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do concur in the following Resolution communicated by the Commons—namely: "That it is expedient that the Roosevelt Memorial Bill be committed to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons."—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

RECRUITING FOR H.M. FORCES.
4.7 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN rose to call attention to the progress made in recruiting for His Majesty's Regular Forces; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I originally put this Motion down before the Recess. At that time I thought the reorganization of the Auxiliary Forces would have proceeded so far that it would be reasonable to expect an answer about their improvement as well as that of the Regular Forces of the Crown. However, that has turned out not to be so and I have therefore confined the Motion now on the Order Paper to the state of recruiting for His Majesty's Regular Forces. I have made it an inter-Service Motion because, although the Army is the Service I am most concerned about and know most about, this matter does appear now to be an inter-Service problem, a common problem for all three Services. I think the recent White Paper on Defence, which I am glad to see we shall have an opportunity of debating later this week, does make it plain that administrative questions which have common interests to all three Services will fall within the province of the Minister of Defence, if his appointment is approved by Parliament. I am quite sure that this question of recruiting comes into that category. After all, the recruits have to come from civil life, and they have to come from the labour markets. As we are dealing with the Regular Forces of the Crown, we are dealing not in this case with compulsorily enlisted men but with volunteers who have to be attracted by the economic and social conditions which prevail in the Service into which it is desired to enlist them.
The position regarding the three Services, as I see it, is something like this. The recruiting for the Royal Navy is

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pretty satisfactory. Let us take the good with the bad. I believe that is all right. The Royal Air Force recruiting, so far as ground staff is concerned, I believe is a good deal better than the Army, but it is not too good. However, other noble Lords will no doubt speak about that in the course of the debate. I now come to the Army. This question of Army recruiting was debated, as your Lordships know, in another place before the Recess. Not very much emerged out of that debate, so far as I could understand, in the way of facts and figures, but I notice that more recently the right honourable gentleman die Secretary of State for War, in another place, in reply to a question on the British Foreign Legion, made it appear from his answer to an honourable member that he was not satisfied with the success of the recruiting campaign. As I. said, before the Recess was not thought by His Majesty's Government to be a suitable moment to give detailed figures, but I hope very much that that view does not still prevail.
I wonder what the facts are. There has been a certain amount of controversy over targets. I think the target that was given before the Recess was 50,000 Regular recruits and a certain number of short-service recruits; but I believe the target changes almost every day. I believe the fact of the matter to be that for every three Regular recruits which the Army wants, only one, or slightly more than one, is being obtained each week. That state of affairs has been going on since recruiting was instituted for the Regular Army in the middle of last summer. I put it to your Lordships that that is the position and I hope the statement will be either confirmed or denied. If the position is better than that, no one will be more pleased than myself, but I am not encouraged to think that it is very much better. This is a most important matter and I make no apology for labouring the point. You can have conscription, you can have a Territorial Army or any Auxiliary Forces you please, but the Regular, long-service men are the backbone of the Armed Forces. They provide the permanent staff to train the non-regular forces in peace-time and they are the nucleus for expansion in war-time. In fact, if His Majesty's Government decided to open recruiting for the Territorial Army tomorrow (and I hope it will be the day
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after to-morrow) it would be extremely difficult to find adequate permanent staff to start off the Territorial Army units in the way in which they should be started.
So the problem a very important one. It involves also, as I think I said before, a long-term policy because the recruit, whether he be officer or other rank, who joins the Army to-day does not become fully proficient for a good number of years. Your company sergeant-majors are the result of fifteen years, service, as are your company commanders. Your unit commanders (and it is much the same in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force) do not emerge until twenty, twenty-five or thirty years after they have joined. Therefore any shortcomings in the present recruiting policy, whether it be in the case of officers or men, will not be felt during the lifetime of this Government or the next; it will be felt far in the future. That is why I want to say as much as I am saying this afternoon.
I wonder very much what is happening. There does not seem to be a great deal of publicity either about the actual state of recruiting or about the steps which are being taken to remedy the shortage. We have had some publicity about the recruiting marches. I do not know how much the Central Office of Information is taking a hand—I have not noticed it a great deal—and still less do I know how much the B.B.C. is taking a hand. I do not believe that the B.B.C. has any expert commentator on the Armed Forces in the Home Service. Although I am perhaps not the most regular of listeners, I have very little reason to suppose that any attempt is being made by the B.B.C. to come to the help of the Service Departments in this matter. We are still suffering from the tendency to say that the Forces are only news when things are wrong. I would like to say—and I say it advisedly—that it is a very great pity that some of the people who rush to be soldiers, friends when events occur like the recent mutiny do not find it advisable to be soldiers, friends more consistently, and, let me say, to be friends of the good soldiers and not of the bad soldiers. We get a continuous stream of articles dealing with the seamy side of events in the Services. There was one which I am going to quote, although the writer belongs to my own school of political thought. Brigadier Maclean wrote an artier on October 7

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last and either the News Editor or somebody else headed it "Forgotten Army Sulks in Japan" or words very like these. The impression that the Forces are a set of disgruntled and grousing people, which is the appearance given in the daily Press, is not in the least a true one. I am not saying that instances of discontent do not occur, because we all know they do, but it is a very great national disservice that time after time it should be made to appear that nothing goes on in the Services except discontent. Why should anybody join if he is made to believe that that is what he is coming to?
So far these recruiting marches seem to be the chief means of trying to get people into the Army. They may make, it I am any judge, about ten per cent. difference in the numbers of recruits coming forward, but I hate recruiting marches anyway. I believe they are an eighteenth-century method of tackling a twentieth-century problem. Of course I may be wrong, and if I am wrong and His Majesty's Government really want to stick to recruiting marches as a means of recruiting, then may I make a suggestion? The Army is not the only place where recruits are short; there is another army which has just lost its private army status—namely, the coal miners. If recruiting marches are all right for the Army, would it not be also right to get some of the coal miners (who I believe do not work every day of the week) and send them round with one of the famous colliery bands in order to attempt to attract recruits to the mines? That makes just about as much sense to my mind as the other does.
The whole thing is really an economic problem and recruiting marches are, to my mind, an advertising mistake, because they are an attempt to advertise goods without being certain that the goods are for sale as offered. It will not do much good to advertise until we are quite certain that we know what are the reasons why people are not joining. The recruiting march is not a remedy at all; it is a palliative. I am therefore doubtful whether the problem has been really faced. This tendency has been going on for months. The graphs which I am sure they keep in the War Office will show quite plainly what the tendency is, where
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it is going and what the cumulative shortage is. There has been plenty of time to see the way the problem is going, and I do not think it will right itself. In recent days I have tried quite hard to see whether I can myself put my finger on the causes and I cannot say that I have been able to come here and say: "This is what you ought to do; if you do it I think it will be all right." I wish I could, but I cannot.
There is, I think, a definite background to the whole of this problem. Let me try and put it as shortly as I can. Nobody really knows yet what the Army is going to do or to be in peace-time. We have asked in this House many times that we should be told, and I believe the country wants to be told. We still have hopes, but we still do not know. I would remind you of what my noble friend Lord De L'Isle said last time we debated this subject in this House on July 24. The next thing is that, rightly or wrongly, there is a feeling in the Army that people who join up do not as a rule get a square deal. This again is important because as I see it, although I may be wrong, if we have compulsory enlistment in the Forces we shall look much more for our recruitment to those men who decide to stay after having given the Army a trial than to the number of people who join deliberately as a career, those who come from the members of the old military families. Therefore, we have to see to it that the men who come into whichever Service they choose find the goods as advertised, and that they decide that it is a place where they will be properly done by. We must give the objective, and we must establish the good will.
Equally important—I will not say too much about it because I believe it is going to be referred to later—we must decide now that those who join the Regular Forces can be given, if they wish it, a life career in the service of the State. I cannot think—although I am no judge—that that is very bad Socialism. A planned career of State service does sound quite attractive when put from some points of view, but the times are past when we get a man from civil life and keep him for six, twelve or even twenty-two years and then leave him to sink or swim in finding his employment for the rest of his life. Furthermore, it is not to my mind in the least necessary that we should do that. The Army is not

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only the concern of the War Office or the Navy that of the Admiralty. The Armed Forces are the concern of the State, and when the number of State employees is going up by leaps and bounds—and will continue to do so as long as His Majesty's Government remain in office—there can be no reason whatsoever why service in the State cannot be offered to those who join the Regular Forces, and whether they serve the King in a red or black coat ought to make no difference at all. The local authorities are also people who can, and in some cases do, employ large numbers of ex-Servicemen. I think I am right in saying that the only really good record—and it is a good record—is possessed by the General Post Office. That record can easily be copied by lots of other people if they have the will.
With regard to pay, I do not want to say a great deal about that, but I would point out that the smallest anomaly, the smallest injustice may do harm and far out-balance any good that could be done by a really sound pay code in general. Questions of pay should be constantly watched. The motto in the Service Departments and in the Treasury must be that the soldier should never get the worst of the deal, and that should be the case at every level. I will not say any more about that, and I will turn to that very big group of subjects which includes leave, welfare and overseas service. A good deal of parade has been made of so-called reforms which are going to cut red tape and give the soldier his freedom. As I ventured to say to your Lordships before the Recess, there has been no corresponding provision for the money which will have to be spent. As a result, certain things have been put before the public as things that are going to happen. We were led to suppose that the idea of signing out from barracks was going to be abolished, that the soldier could walk in and out as he pleased. In a great number of regiments in the Army the permanent pass system for men of good conduct was instituted before 1914. It is no good parading that sort of thing. Nothing will do any good unless the Government decide to bring the barracks up to the standard where these things can happen.
I will give you an example. It was said, I believe, by Lord Montgomery that he would like to see a state of affairs where every soldier had his bedside lamp and
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people could go in and out of barracks when they liked, early or late, perhaps drunk or sober, in company or alone—I do not know. That is a good thing, but the fact of the matter is that it cannot happen until each man has got separate accommodation, because the Commanding Officer of a unit, in commanding that unit, must always favour the people who come in early and sober and make rules to protect them against people who act otherwise. I simply instance that to show that none of these things can come true until a very big building programme has been undertaken, and if the soldier thinks that he is not going to get his bedside lamp perhaps during his present tour of engagement, who am I to say that he is wrong? On the other hand, if this matter is really tackled and the troops can see signs that these things are happening, then it will be a very, very good day for His Majesty's Forces.
I was rather troubled on this same subject by one other thing—I am afraid I did not give notice to the noble Lord that I should raise it—and that concerns a small paragraph in the Secretary of State's reply over that intensely deplorable matter, the Malayan mutiny. In that reply it was said that the conditions in the camp were partly due to the transition from war to peace. I could not quite make out what was meant. It read to me rather like charity covering a multitude of sins. I would like to say that the question of scale and provisioning for camps in India was all worked out in great detail by the noble Earl, Lord Munster, and all the conclusions of the Munster Report apply equally, I think, to places like Singapore. If that remark does mean that the amount of money and the provisioning for troops in peace-time is on a lower scale of money and priority than what was agreed by the late Government on the Munster Report in war-time, then I think it is a most serious state of affairs. All these welfare problems are not complicated; they are straightforward honest-to-God matters of money, procurement and priority. We have not heard about the programme for married quarters. We do not know whether the married soldier is being treated as well as, or better, or worse than the married civilian. What we do know, unless I am very wrong, is that the issue of sheets to single soldiers has hardly begun, if it has begun at all.
I could go on for a very long time on matters of this sort, but I shall only mention one more and that is the recruiting offices. If we are going to advertise the Forces by recruiting offices let us have properly painted offices, staffed by properly paid people and in the right business situations. I have spoken too long, but I would ask these questions: What are our real plans? What has been financially sanctioned and is going to happen, and what has not? What are the priorities that are being given in money and material to do right by those who come to join the Forces? As I have said, I do not look on this as a matter merely for the Service Departments. It is for the Service Departments to put their case, and I honestly believe that that case has been put. It is for other Departments to find the money, give the priorities, allocate building materials and all the rest of it. It is also, I suppose, a matter for His Majesty' Government at large to decide the Services, position.
I do not want this Motion to be construed as one more shot at the Aunt Sally, which the Service Departments are. I want to put it rather as a point to His Majesty's Government as to whether they are going to call on the Civil Departments to play their part in this problem. If they do, I am not saying it will come right quickly—I do not believe it will for a second—but I am saying that we shall turn the corner and things will come right. If they do not, I cannot see how our Regular Forces—except the Royal Navy, recruiting for which is going so well now—are going to be able to meet the commitments which our present foreign policy will impose upon them. I am certain that the noble Lord who, I believe, is going to reply has these matters very well at heart, and although perhaps I ought to apologize to him for putting this Motion so soon after he has taken office, I do not really feel very guilty, because if his record in this House in this Session is anything to go upon, it will be only a very short time before he is thoroughly acquainted with the whole problem. I look upon this as a really serious matter and as a problem which will not improve by keeping. I beg to move for Papers.
4.32 p.m.
LORD MOYNIHAN: My Lords, I am very pleased to be able to address your Lordships on this most important subject, and I think that we ought all to be very grateful to the noble Viscount for introducing it. He has spoken to you as a senior officer, with the weight of all his experience in these matters, and I cannot help feeling that it is always difficult and dangerous to intervene in a debate on subjects such as this, in view of the wealth of knowledge upon them which is possessed by your Lordships. I am speaking merely as a regimental officer in the recent war, but I think that such officers had very good opportunities of forming a judgment on what junior officers and other ranks really wanted. If I speak mainly with regard to the Army, it is because I served in the Army, but I think that my remarks refer to all three Services.
To start with, I would say that however hard His Majesty's Government wish to work us, however many Bills they bring to this House for consideration, none of their measures will be of any avail unless we have arrangements for an adequate defence of this country. We often hear the phrase "permanent peace." That is something of which the whole world stands very greatly in need, but it is not here yet, and unless we can work out a satisfactory plan for recruitment to the Regular Forces, we in this country are going to be in a very difficult position. Let us look at a few of the reasons for the obvious reluctance on the part of some of the young people of this country to join the Forces, for I feel that, with the possible exception, as the noble Viscount has pointed out, of the Navy, there is a definite shortage of recruits. To my mind the reasons for this are not far to seek. We have had six years of war, during which vast numbers of us have been serving in the Forces, and I think that, for the time being at any rate, we feel we have had enough of it. It is no good putting up a poster bearing the words: "Join the Army and see the World." We did join the Army; and did we see the world? Amongst great numbers of us, also, there is an inherent dislike to too much discipline and too much regimentation. The six years we have had of that sort of thing have been quite enough.
The ordinary man in the street remembers the Army as it was in war-time, and does not realize what an enormously

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different life the peace-time Army gives, or will give once it has a chance of settling down to its peace-time work. Then, again, we are not a military nation at heart. I do not think that there is any other nation which would come forward with more fervour when the call to arms is sounded, but, if there is no call, then we like to forget about military subjects. These difficulties could be counteracted by His Majesty's Government: if they were determined to make the life of the Serviceman sufficiently attractive. The problem is, how are we going to do that, and how are we going to get these volunteers who are so greatly needed? We have had, during the last few months, two White Papers dealing with scales of pay—one for officers, and one for other ranks. Both of these have shown an enormous improvement in the matter of remuneration, compared with the state of affairs that existed before the war. But I have one main criticism to make—namely, that although Service pay is going up to a scale comparable with civilian pay, no consideration has been given to the question of the standard of living or as to how the standards permitted compare with the standards of the public generally. The noble Viscount has already referred to that important matter.
In what I am going to say next, I shall probably be very unpopular with Regular soldiers. We still see that promotion is going to be made on a time basis; that is to say, it is to be awarded in consideration of length of service rather than of merit. I think it will be found that a lot of volunteers are being lost because they know that in the Services they would have to wait a long time before getting promotion. This time basis seems to me to be one of the main deterrents to potential recruits—especially in the case of officers. Good men see that they have to wait just as long as less experienced and less hardworking contemporaries. I have been a Territorial officer and I have had Regular soldiers under me, and the fact which I have just mentioned seems to be an ever present consideration with them during their service. Now., although that system may work in peace-time, it did not work in war. While I sincerely hope that we shall be only training our new Army for peace and not for war, we have, nevertheless, to consider and plan Army training with the possibility of war in view.
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The noble Viscount, in speaking of this, has asked if we may have a full policy regarding the training for civil employment in the Army, and if we may be assured that this training is going to fit a man for a job after he leaves the Army. Not only has he to be trained for a job, but he must be passed out fully qualified to do it—qualified to such an extent that he will be accepted for membership by the trade union concerned.
These are the days of mobile warfare. Wherever there may be warfare of any kind, it will tend to be more and more mobile. That means that the Army is going to need ever younger and more active men This will result in men finishing their time in the Army while still in the early forties, or even before that. It is therefore vitally important that training for peace-time occupations should be an integral part of their life while they are in the Army, and that every effort should be made not only to fit them for civilian employment but to see that, so far as possible, such employment should be guaranteed.
What has been done since the war has finished to encourage volunteering? No decision has yet been reached as to the future of the Territorial Army. No decision has been reached about the permanent Regular Army. I should like to ask the Government whether we could not have an announcement of these decisions, and quickly. There have been statements by the C.I.G.S. of plans to improve vastly the lot of the young soldier, but it is most unfortunate that these statements have been put out in such a way that they have been caricatured by almost every cartoonist in the newspapers. But they foreshadow a better time for the soldier, and I think that the most important point which has been stressed is that relating to the freedom he is to have in the time when he is not engaged on his military duties. Why should not a soldier at six o'clock in the evening, or at any other time when he has finished his peace-time military duties, go out in mufti and return in time for his next parade. I should like to know if there is Government backing for this proposed freedom, or is this merely something that the C.I.G.S. wishes to do. If we have not Government backing for it at the present time, can we have it?
I see in the Press that one of the Commands—I believe it was the Western

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Command—has started work on the lines of these suggestions. Only some of them; and there was the promise, if they were successful, that others would follow. That sounds as if there is no Government backing behind it. It is just a trial on the part of certain senior officers. A great amount could also be done by good Press publicity. I think that we should give confidence to the volunteer, to show him that if he joins the Forces he is not only doing a good job of work for his country but is doing a work that is at least equal to anything in civil life. More especially, I would ask that while he is in the Forces his time should not be wasted.
I would like to add a few words about conscription. Conscription has never yet been necessary in this country in peacetime, but much as I should like to consider that we are at peace now it is very difficult to do so. And it may be necessary to have conscription, at any rate for a few years. Personally, I believe that one and a half or two years in the Forces by boys of eighteen or nineteen will make them realize that the Army is not such a bad place after all, and that at the end of their time they will be quite prepared to join as volunteers. What is really wanted is a quick decision on conscription, and at least a ten-year plan for the Regular Army. We should also be told how the Territorial Army is to come into the picture. I know that this debate is on the Regular Army, but the Territorial Army is a distinct part of the whole system and cannot be left on one side. I believe that the voluntary system will work, but all these delays are not going to help.
One final point: may I ask that while the men—especially the young men—are in the Forces, their time should not be wasted. Even now, time and time again, I hear of men in the Forces sitting down or doing nothing but completely unnecessary fatigues. That is the sort of thing that puts people against the Army. They are given a good job to do in the war. In peace-time give them an equally good job, or training for peace-time occupations, that will keep them busy—not building a wall to take down the next day. The longer these improvements take, the longer it will be before we can get the voluntary system working, and the longer before we get adequate defence of this country. I have asked His
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Majesty's Government questions and I apologize for giving practically no notice of them, but I do feel, from what has been said already on this subject, that there is no doubt in the minds of all your Lordships that the sooner we get an answer to these questions the better it will be.
4.43 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am afraid that it must be perfectly clear that so far as the Army is concerned the present recruiting campaign has failed. The serious repercussions which that failure must inevitably have on our foreign policy are obvious, and I am certain that your Lordships are grateful to my noble friend for allowing us to examine shortly some of the reasons for that failure. The last speaker suggested, perfectly properly, that one of the major causes was a natural post-war apathy. I think that that is accepted by everybody, but I think that our examination should go a little deeper. I hope that I shall not get into trouble as a perpetual grouser with my noble friend Viscount Bridgeman when I raise a few complaints. I do so in the best possible spirit.
The recent improvements, long overdue and very welcome, which the Chief of the Imperial General Staff has put forward are interesting from one particular point of view. They are aimed at righting a grievance which has always been most noticeable in the public mind. I do not believe that in his heart the soldier objects to discipline and necessary restrictions to freedom which he regards as inevitable to his calling. It is the unnecessary restrictions and discipline to which he objects, and improvements put forward by Field-Marshal Viscount Montgomery show appreciation of that fact. I do not believe that they will have any serious effect on discipline, and I do not think that discipline will be affected if the soldier has only two hours in which to consider the possible parentage and ultimate destination of the General who is to inspect him instead of the usual seven days. It is that contrast between the freedom which the man has in civilian life, and has learnt to regard as his right, and the unnecessary and incomprehensible restrictions of military life which cause the Army to be unpopular in the public eye. The Army can no longer afford to be unpopular. There are some things which must puzzle the ordinary civilian

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spectator. What civilian firm, bank or insurance company, having selected some promising young official for further training, with a view to promotion and more important work, will so arrange affairs that that official will lose a considerable amount of his pay? That is what appears to be happening to certain senior officers who are selected to attend the Imperial Defence College.
Recently, something more serious happened which must have a very deleterious effect on recruiting. I refer to the Court Martial in Malaya. This is neither the time nor the place to discuss that, but I must say that I thought the solution to the difficulty a little cowardly. Very convenient legal difficulties at the last minute have enabled the Secretary of State to reach a decision which really evades the correct issue. Nobody suspected anything of those irregularities when the matter was first raised. The effect on the Army has been seen at once; the mutiny at Dartmoor is an illustration. In the mind of the potential recruit is now the suggestion that he does not receive, and will not receive, if he gets into trouble in the Army, the same high standard of legal protection that he has fought to get, and expects to find, in civil life. The Malaya incident was a spectacular case. Everybody knew about it. How many cases occur (the man may ask) of which nothing is known? My experience of military life gives me a completely contrary picture. I have always found that there was no better system. A man in trouble has no better chance of getting away with it than under military law. That is my impression; but that is not the impression of those outside the Army, who have studied this case. May I humbly suggest to the Government that they should now consider the Report of the Committee, presided over by Mr. Justice Oliver in 1938, on the whole question of military law, which was published as Command Paper Number 6200?
I endorse the remarks made by the last speaker on employment after service. I think it a most shameful reflection when I read every morning in The Times that pitifully long list of able experienced young men searching with all their hearts for employment. Mention has been made of employment in the Civil Service after military service. Before the war there was an arrangement in Germany, I
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believe, whereby a certain fixed percentage of jobs in the Civil Service were guaranteed to Servicemen after they had finished their time with the colours. I should like to see a permanent scheme whereby any man leaving the Services is guaranteed employment, and does not have to have it found for him, after six months it may be, through some charitable or Service organization. I was very pleased the other day to observe the arrangement that has been come to between the Amalgamated Engineering Union and the various technical branches of the Services. I hope that that will be extended. I should like to see much closer liaison between the regimental depots and the local labour exchanges. I should like to see some permanent scheme worked out. I should like to see officers seconded to business and industry six months before their time is up, so that they can go straight in partially-trained to a proper, decent job. This matter cannot any longer be left to a haphazard scheme, though the figures produced in another place recently show that it undoubtedly still is a haphazard scheme.
I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me if I suggest to him that among the difficulties which he has to meet in this recruiting problem is one for which the Government and their supporters are responsible. For many years some of the extreme supporters of the Socialist Party have made it their business to bring the profession of arms into disrepute. The long policy of propaganda, aided and abetted by their most skilful publicists, has done a certain amount of damage. Mr. George Bernard Shaw persuaded the British private soldier that he was a match for anything except the War Office. David Low, in a brilliant series of cartoons, suggested to him that the senior officer on whose leadership his own and eventually the country's safety would depend, was a bigoted and incompetent dotard. Professor Joad went so far as to suggest that it was morally indefensible to fight for one's King and country. Any of your Lordships who were connected before the war with recruiting, either for the Regular Forces or Territorial Forces, will remember the violent and extremely efficient opposition we always received from Socialist: councils. It is therefore not surprising that the potential recruit hesitates to adopt a calling which the Government and their supporters have for so

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long taught him to regard as a slightly ridiculous, if not indeed discreditable profession.
I do strongly support the argument put forward by the two previous speakers that the support of other Departments is required by the War Office, particularly with regard to housing. Your Lordships will remember that we discussed this matter in some detail on a Motion brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, on May 7, with regard to the question of divorce and separation in the Forces. It is perfectly clear that one of the major grievances at the moment which deters a man from joining the Army is inability to lead a decent, normal family life. This is a question of accommodation, of shipping, of transport and many other things, with regard to which I will not weary your Lordships to-day because we discussed them at great length on that occasion.
This is a very important point. The noble Lord, I think, should remember that it is not his own Ministry we are attacking in this case. It is the other Ministries who control priorities of labour and so on. Surely, I would urge in conclusion, it is clear that the real root of the whole matter is finance. We debated this question at great length on a Motion put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, on March 20, when we discussed the rates of pay in the Armed Forces, and the then Under-Secretary of State for War, Lord Nathan, was at considerable pains—very naturally and properly—to equate and to compare the various rates of pay in the Armed Forces with those in civilian life. That is obviously not good enough. That equation has failed. It is no good offering a potential recruit the same amount of money as he can get in civilian life. He wants some extra compensation for the lack of freedom he has got to expect in the Services. He wants an extra inducement. That may almost savour of bribery, but to test the truth of it you have only to speak to the first young soldier you meet going home after the House has risen and ask him if he is going into the Regular Forces when he has finished his term of conscription. The answer will inevitably be "No." If you ask him why the answer will inevitably be "Cash." That is the reason and the major reason. It always will be.
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The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, made it quite clear that this was not a matter which, of course, can be laid at the door of the War Office. He said it was not the fault of the War Office. As one who is a junior officer compared with the noble Viscount, I find considerably more difficulty than he does in getting my tongue round the expression, "It is not the fault of the War Office." But I agree with him, and I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, that he can rightly take it as a compliment to himself and as a mark of the esteem and affection in which he is held on this side of the House, that on the first occasion of his answering a major debate he has not himself been personally attacked. But I hope that he will not take it as a precedent!I would conclude by wishing him and his colleague the Secretary of State, the very best of luck in their dealings with the Treasury, because it is there that the major attack must be made, and there that the answer to this problem is to be found. The noble Lord must by now, I think, be quite clear where he can look for allies.
4.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT TRENCHARD: My Lords, I have listened to this debate with very considerable interest. I want to touch on two points only, one very shortly, and one in rather more detail. Both have already been referred to by noble Lords who have spoken. We are well aware of the fact that recruits are not coming into the Services and that there are a number of points which militate against recruiting. One of the two main questions which occur to me is this: What are the Services going to do in the future if these men do not come forward? The other is: What chance have men who join the Services of getting definite employment afterwards? I believe that is the key to the whole problem. I should like to say that this can be regarded as one problem. It is a Service problem as well as one affecting the whole nation. I might say that it is more a national problem. I would draw attention to the fact that a fortnight ago in the Sunday Times there appeared a letter headed: "The national Service." The question really comes back to this: What are the men, who join the Services now, going to do after their term is up?
The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft said this afternoon that the Army is getting younger

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and younger; the Services are getting younger and younger, and the nation is getting older and older. It is clear that the shortage of recruits is bound to get worse owing to the amount of employment available, and the man-power required in business, and in all the Government services. That will inevitably mean a smaller number of men available to go into the Services. I would ask once again: Would not a thorough investigation into what I call the short-service system, which has been referred to by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, be of inestimable value? It is the young men we want to get into the Army. Outside of conscription for two years, or one and a half years in future, we want men to enter the Services for four, five or six years. Would it not be of benefit to the nation to take men—as I have advocated in your Lordship's House—into the Services as a necessary qualification before they can get permanent Government employment or employment in the L.C.C. or semi-municipal employment? Is that not possible?
Let us consider what was said the other day with regard to the Civil Service and also with regard to the teachers. The suggestion is that after a man has passed the book examinations, and before he takes up the teaching profession, he should do three or four or five years service with one of the Services, and at the end of it be guaranteed a post in the teaching profession. Should not the same apply to the municipal service and the Civil Service? Such a scheme would benefit the Civil Service and the teaching profession as well as the Services. There is nothing in the Services to-day which has not got its counterpart in civilian life. I believe in that way you would get an enormous number of people who would voluntarily join one of the Services for three, four, five or even going up to six or seven years. It is the young men we want in the Services. I suggest you would get them if they were guaranteed employment in one of the Government services, municipal services or in big business, as was done before the war; in other words, let us have an extension of the short-service system that was adopted by the Air Force.
There has been a Committee dealing with this matter. How has that Committee got on? Have the Navy and Army joined in that Committee? Last
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May I asked the noble Lord who then represented the War Office in this House if he had not asked any of the Government Departments outside the Services whether they were interested in the matter.
A year or eighteen months ago Lord Selborne introduced an Amendment to the Bill relating to teachers, superannuation, to the effect that no man who went away from the teaching profession for up to five years for any recognized Service employment: should lose his superannuation rate. In moving that Amendment in this House in December, 1944, he said he hoped noble Lords would be pleased by this step forward of the teaching profession in the short-service system. I believe that if the future of the man who joins the Service was guaranteed, and his training there was looked upon as an asset and an extra qualification, recruiting would be helped.
5.2 p.m.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, I have only a few remarks to make. I hoped a live sailor would make some remarks from the naval point of view, but I would ask your Lordships, indulgence if a moribund sailor speaks to you. One speaker said that the Army could not afford to be unpopular. I suggest it should be said that: the nation cannot afford to have an unpopular Army. It is a national thing. One of the reasons why the Navy has not the same difficulty is that, besides being a smaller Service, it can offer security to a great number of men who join it. They learn a variety of trades, and we at one time suffered from too much security. We had so many counterparts of the old soldier. Their greatest a ambition was to be Captain of the Head, and they knew just enough to keep out of trouble. They were a damper on the young petty officers, and set a bad example to the younger men. They suppressed zeal, and were generally a nuisance. We have straightened that out.
Now there are a good many men who reach the end of their time and who have a good pension, but what could be more wretched than seeing a sergeant or a petty officer or that: sort of man going out into the labour market handicapped by his service and getting into some lower grade. It has a tremendously bad effect. When the coal strike was on several naval

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battalions were mobilized, but as they came from South Wales they were no use because petty officers were getting lower positions in the trades round there than the men of whom they were supposed to take charge. They had spent many years in the Service, and then had to go out on a lower rung. The value of security is tremendous, for a man can look forward often to a pension at the end of his time, but if you are going to throw him out after six or seven years without any prospects he is not likely to join the Service that lets him down in that way.
I have been a supporter of Lord Trenchard ever since he started urging that there should be a short-service system liberally introduced into the Navy as well as in the Air Force. Then these young men could go out and be guaranteed a job, if they behaved themselves, in the Government service. Nothing could more strengthen one's affection for a Service than some such system as that. Particularly I should like to see in the Church young men who had served some time in the Service. They could go out and among themselves carry on the tradition which they had been taught. I am perfectly sure at the present time that some of these clubs formed by young officers will have the most beneficial effect on their own life. As to the jeering at the Services, and the caricatures, if we had listened to Colonel Blimp a little more we should not have been so unprepared as we were when the crash came. I know myself that as young men we were only too anxious to go on with the regular service, but now as they cannot get any firm idea of what their future will be, men reluctantly go out. Many of them are young men, just married—just the type that we want in our family life. In many cases men who have shirked have got into good billets, while their brothers and cousins have been away. I have had the pleasure of turning down three or four such men. I always ask what their war service has been, and if they say, "We were in a sheltered occupation," I always cross my pencil through their names and say no more.
We could have the most magnificent Service in peace-time if we could only promise these men that they will, on leaving the Service, have some occupation guaranteed to them. Then they could come in and be happy. We should not
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always have these upsets in the Service with all the good points ignored and all the bad ones magnified.
5.7 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I am sure that on all sides of the House your Lordships are grateful to my noble friend Lord Bridgeman for raising this debate on this very vitally important subject. The field has been very fully covered, but it seems to me we are never going to get satisfaction on this important matter until, firstly, we decide which came first—the chicken or the egg. Our Imperial and foreign policy must depend to a very large extent upon the man-power we can get for our Forces, but equally the numbers required for the Forces depends upon the policy. What we are really waiting for is for the Government to be able to tell us what, in terms of man-power, will be required for our Imperial and foreign policy commitments and our United Nations Organization policy. At the moment it is quite clear that in two out of the three Services the voluntary engagement system is failing.
My noble friend Lord Bridgeman spoke about the Army, and said he thought the Air Force was in a somewhat better position. I would remind your Lordships of the very serious words spoken at a Press Conference only on September 10 last by Lord Tedder, when he said, as regards the Royal Air Force on which we had to depend so much for our defensive and offensive action in the last war:
"We have a race with time to fill up with volunteers before the drain out of our wartime personnel reduces the whole Force to impotence.… The result of the recruiting schemes so far are gravely disappointing and we are in danger of losing the race."
So, taking the words of the Chief of the Air Staff, serious and well-thought-out words, as regards the Air Force, we are facing a position where the regular R.A.F. engagement is not within sight of providing the minimum number of trained men necessary for backing the untrained drafts called up for national service.
It has been said by other speakers that the Services have to compete with civilian life in attracting men into the Services. At the present time there is a shortage of skilled tradesmen in nearly all branches of civilian industry. This an exceptional condition which might not last for ever, but at the moment the Services have to compete with that shortage of skilled men

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in civilian trades. Wages are high, and the policy of full employment means that there is little fear of unemployment in civil life. There is an enormous advantage for the civilian, which was touched upon by the noble Lord, the advantage the civilian has with regard to housing. It seems to me there are two needs if the voluntary engagement system is ever going to succeed in this country. The first is that Service life is well thought of by the rest of the community as well as by those within the Service; and the second is that there are proper retiring conditions and civil resettlement prospects. As regards the first, until the Government declare their peace-time policy as regards continuation or not continuation of compulsory service I do not think we shall get voluntary engagement as a popular part of our national life. Young men do not like the continuation into peace-time of the military call-up system, and it has undoubtedly a wide and regrettable effect on the question whether young men should adopt a Service career as a permanent career or not.
Broadly speaking, I think the new Pay Code, with certain exceptions upon which we touched in our last debate, gives a reasonably comparable standard of life, taken in real values of accommodation, food and money, to civilian life. But we are not at the present time in normal peace-time. We have that boom in industry about which I spoke just now, with the rather exceptional conditions; and also within the Services, as noble Lords who are interested in these matters know, there are exceptional conditions. There is transition going on in the Services themselves from war to peace, and I believe there must be a greater elasticity in conditions, and special concessions made now in the Army and Air Force if we are not to lose the good effects which the Pay Code has had. Things which may seem small in detail to some of us, but which are vitally important to the men in the Services, need attention.
The first and most important, I am sure, is housing. There is a high degree of instability within the Services at the present time, and particularly in the Royal Air Force. Frequent postings are inevitable, and officers and other ranks, particularly the married ones, are put to very serious expense by the frequent
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moves which they are forced to make. I would like to suggest that representations should be made by the Service Departments to the Treasury for special and temporary allowances to meet the high cost of these frequent moves during the transition period when men in one group are being demobilized and it requires men from another group to be sent to replace them. As regards married quarters, undoubtedly officers and other ranks living in are very much better off than married officers and other ranks living out. The former pay a very reasonable rent to the Government for their married quarters, but the latter go into districts almost always overcrowded and have to pay fantastic rents in competition with those who are getting much higher cash benefits than they are, rents which are totally unmet by the rent allowances given, to married officers living out. I suggest again that the Treasury should be asked to help meet the difference by authorizing local concession allowances for rents during this transition period according to the difficulties in any particular district to which an officer or man is posted.
I know I am asking for a good deal in asking the Service Departments to approach the Treasury for more money, but when I think of the White Paper on Defence, which could, I think, be termed "A Bill for the Relief of the Chancellor of the Exchequer," who will only have to overcome one Minister now and give a global sum for defence Which will then be allocated amongst the three Services, I am sure the Service Departments could approach the Chancellor for concessions now. Then I believe there should be a hostel for junior officers and other ranks married and serving in the London area. It is a great need, because they cannot possibly compete with the rents which are charged in the London area, even if they can get the accommodation. With the War Office, the Air Ministry and other units in London it is necessary that considerable numbers of young men should serve in the London area. The Departments cannot assist in that without Treasury sanction, but I do hope the Departments will make a concerted approach to the Chancellor on that.
The Royal Air Force needs re-engagement N.C.O.'s and experienced men, particularly technicians, probably more than either of the other two Services. It

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would be an exaggeration to say that any of our recent accidents are directly due to shortage of skilled ground personnel, but it is not an exaggeration to say that maintenance and safety in flying are seriously embarrassed by the shortage which at present exists in various technical trade groups. I do feel that the factor of separation from families is the most serious deterrent to the re-engagement of these technicians in the service. I want to ask the noble Lord who replies if he can give the House some information on the priority that the Services are enjoying as regards labour and materials for married housing in this country. I would like to know if the Services are being given any money on this particular vote, and, further, if they are not being given any money, whether the Service Departments are satisfied that the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Works are giving them adequate priority in labour and materials for the married quarters, because housing of married men in the Services is just as important as housing of married men in industry.
The next question I would like to ask relates to prefabricated houses. Are the Services getting any prefabricated houses? There is no reason at all that I can see why the Service Departments should not put up prefabricated houses in the same way as local authorities. Are the Services getting an allocation in relation to the total supply available for the whole community? Overseas the housing position for married men is getting worse. I would like to ask if the Government have authorized the expenditure of money and the priorities necessary for overseas building. Very often the material question does not enter into the picture, because local materials can be used for housing construction overseas; but what is required is the clearance financially from this country. I think it is generally agreed that good living conditions are as important as pay, and I know that the Royal Air Force is working on post-war stations, within the limited resources available, which will have those improvements which we consider necessary for the modern soldier or airman, such as better barracks, etc. I hope we shall receive some assurance from the Minister that the Services are being given the necessary money for the reconstruction of old
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barracks and the construction of new barracks.
I want now to say something quite briefly about this question of red tape which has been touched on to-day. I would like to say that, so far as I am aware, the Royal Air Force has got the minimum amount of red tape and has had the minimum amount of red tape in the past. Perhaps it is that the Army is now following the good example set for many years past by the Royal Air Force. I think that on this question of parades we must be a little careful. A good many of us think it is not a case of abolishing unnecessary parades but that in some cases there have not been enough parades. Abolition of unnecessary parades does not mean no parades at all, and it is a truism to say that a well-drilled and well-trained unit is always the happiest and most efficient unit. I believe it is dangerous to foster the feeling abroad by public speeches and in certain sections of the Press that all parades are unnecessary and bad.
I hope we shall continue to take a balanced view of this problem and try to avoid enticing men into the Services by painting pictures of a wonderful effortless, lounging life—a pleasant existence with not very much hard work, and with officers who are hesitant to give orders due to the power of Parliament and the Press being with men in the ranks and not being vested in the proper authority. Perhaps I exaggerate a little, but I believe it is an important point. As one noble Lord said, do not let us frame our policy for the bad and difficult soldier; let us frame our policy for the average soldier, who is a really good fellow and who will accept the necessary amount of discipline which is required in a good unit, although he will, quite rightly, object to unnecessary restrictions.
I feel I cannot let this opportunity pass without giving my own view of something which was said by my noble friend Lord Mancroft. He was talking, as he was perfectly entitled to do, of Court-Martial procedure and he mentioned this recent case, saying he thought the War Office—I presume he meant the Minister—had had the good fortune to get out on a legal quibble. I must say that do not think—and I am sure the noble Lord will not mind my saying this—

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that that is quite fair. Courts-Martial are referred to the Judiciary. In this country the Judiciary is separate from the Executive; it is not concerned with politics or swayed one way or the other by any particular opinion. The Judiciary gives its view based upon the law as Parliament has passed it, and it is the duty of the Executive to take the advice of the Judiciary on the law. I cannot believe that the Secretary of State for War—though he is not of my political persuasion—would have veered at all from his duty of accepting the advice of the Judiciary, and I am doubly sure that the Judiciary would never be swayed by anything except the correct interpretation of the law as they saw it.
I want to mention one anomaly. Plain clothes privileges have been spoken of to-day, and quite rightly, as they are appreciated by the men in the Services. But there is a widespread grievance in the Services that while, on the one hand, plain clothes privileges have been introduced, on the other hand the issue of coupons is inadequate to allow them to buy plain clothes outfits. I hope that the Services will ask the President of the Board of Trade to co-operate in issuing an adequate supply of coupons and thus assist the recruiting campaign.
I have touched on matters which may appear to be matters of detail, but they loom very large in the minds of Service men. I feel that if this debate to-day has focussed the attention of the Government upon some of these problems it has achieved something. We are fortunate that the debate is going to be replied to by the new Under-Secretary of State for War, who, I am sure, carries with him into his high office the good wishes of members on all sides of your Lordships, House. If he will reply to those points to which he can reply today, and if he will take note of the other points made by noble Lords to which he cannot reply today, I am sure that my noble friend Lord Bridgeman will feel that his action in initiating this debate has done good within the Services.
5.25 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD PAKENHAM): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord who initiated this debate and to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, for their good
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wishes. I think I shall need them. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, was kind enough to say that he thought I should soon, become well acquainted with these subjects. At the moment that possibility seems somewhat remote, but time will show. I am afraid there is no short cut to a thorough appreciation of these subjects. There are immense masses of detail which have to be mastered, and the Under-Secretary (or for that matter, the Secretary of State) who in the end does the best service to the country is die one who understands all aspects of his job—a task which takes some time.
May I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, for the manner in which he dealt with the observations regarding the recent trial of the paratroopers which fell from the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft? I feel sure we all regret that the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who cares so passionately for the Army and whose speech contained so many helpful suggestions, should have let slip observations of that kind. As the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, explained, the decision was taken on the advice—the objective, impartial advice—of the Judge Advocate-General, and it would be an insult to the Secretary of State and to the Judge Advocate-General to cast any reflection on a decision so arrived at.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, may I interrupt for a moment? I would like to apologize at once if I have given that impression. Of course, nothing was further from my mind than to cast any such aspersion. I hope the noble Lord will allow me to say that. The impression I intended to give was that I thought that it was regrettable that the decision was eventually taken not upon the same points as those which had originally attracted public notice.
LORD PAKENHAM: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I am anxious to be with him on all these matters, especially in view of the manifest interest and expert knowledge he has displayed. The House will perhaps forgive me if I do not take each speaker in turn and reply to all his points. I will try to reply, if I may, to the general line of argument advanced by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and, as I proceed, to take up other points which were

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brought forward. If at the end I do not seem to have covered as much ground as I should have done, no doubt noble Lords, either to-day or an a subsequent occasion, will ask for further information.
I recognize, as I think we all do, the seriousness of this occasion. First of all, I desire to join most heartily with the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, in emphasizing the necessity for voluntary recruiting for the Regular Services. Whatever view we take of the overall manpower position—a position which shows more than one disquieting feature from the angle of the Services—the necessity for voluntary recruiting stands out. Again the necessity is obvious whatever the decision on the conscription issue—a point which, I may say, is overlooked sometimes even by the best friends of voluntary recruiting. There appears to be a widespread belief at the present time that conscription should provide the Services with all the man-power they require, and that in consequence voluntary recruiting is unnecessary. There has been no sign, I hasten to say, of any such belief in your Lordships, House, but it is, I think, one which is fairly widely entertained in the country.
As your Lordships are aware, nothing could be farther from the truth and nothing could be more unsound than the view "If they want me, they will take me." Whatever may be the overall picture of man-power, and whatever may be the decision on conscription, I think we all agree in this House that voluntary recruitment alone can provide the essential framework of the Services. The whole fabric of the Fighting Services depends on the Regular volunteer, and the conscript, as noble Lords are all aware, can be no substitute for him. The Regular alone can provide the non-commissioned officers to train the conscript intakes and the key specialists and technicians on whom the efficiency of the Services so largely depends. Further, our garrisons abroad will in future have to be found largely from Regulars, owing to the shortness of the time which men called up in the future will have available for service after completion of their training period. A shortage of Regular volunteers to-day would soon place our whole defence scheme in jeopardy. That is the considered view of the Government, which indeed squares with
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everything which has been said in this House.
Your Lordships will particularly want to know from me to-day what is the present position as regards recruiting. It can only be described as serious. There was little or no Regular recruiting for the Army and the R.A.F. during the war, so that those Services are now faced with the need to make up the backlog of those six war years. An ambitious recruiting drive was launched in May of this year, as your Lordships recollect, and you will want to know the result up to date. For the Navy, where regular recruiting for certain branches continued throughout the war, the position is reasonably satisfactory.
But the Admiralty are aiming at achieving still better figures; they are never content with the good, they always desire to do better. For the Army there has been some talk of a target, but I understand it is better to refer to a quota against which figures of recruitment can be measured. To compensate for wastage and run-out, a monthly intake of Regulars of the order of 4,000 a month would be required in normal times to sustain a Regular Army of some 250,000, a number that I take for purposes of exposition. At the moment the Regular content of the Army is, of course, far below this number, and we accordingly require something distinctly above 4,000 a month to build up to the required number and to sustain it—something between 4,000 and 4,500. This, therefore, is the kind of figure—whether you call it the target or not, although we are rather chary of calling it that—against which our Regular recruiting must be measured, although nobody would expect it to be achieved straight away.
The figure for September for Regular enlistments from civil life for the Army was 1,868, or somewhat less than half the quota. Re-enlistments from within the Service, which have averaged 200 a month throughout the summer, might theoretically be added, but I am informed that it is a fairer comparison to leave them out. Therefore, the right comparison is 1,868 against 4,000 plus. The story in the case of the Royal Air Force is similar, and in the period from April 1—a date which I am told is the correct one in their case—to August 31, only some thirty-two per cent. of their planned programme was achieved, although there has been a distinct improvement as time has gone on.

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I am bound to admit, speaking solemnly and carefully for the Government, that these Army and Royal Air Force figures are decidedly disappointing. They have fallen considerably below the the levels for which we hoped. It is early days yet to talk of complete failure, and it is permissible to point out, in the case of the Army for instance, that the monthly figures have steadily improved from the appallingly low level to which they had sunk by May, when the recruiting drive began. The figures are figures for Regular enlistments for the Army from civil life, and they are as follows: May, 1,203; June, 1,396; July, 1,541; August, 1,626, and September, 1,868, an increase of rather more than fifty per cent. since May. We must be thankful for small mercies in the shape of an upward gradient, but few of us will deduce from these figures any foreseeable prospect of achieving our aim unless some quite new factor or totally new atmosphere is introduced.
I will say this for the Government: that we are under no false illusions and we are not indulging in any wishful thinking on this subject. If I said that we had the matter under active consideration I would rightly excite your Lordships, derision. At the same time, as many of your Lordships are aware, it is not usual to reveal in public—although I do not know that there is any great secrecy about the matter—the precise form of Governmental scrutiny to which an issue of this kind is being subjected. I will content myself with saying, and saying with emphasis, that the whole question of the approach to voluntary recruiting is being studied afresh in the light of results up to date, and studied intensively. The review is already proceeding, and the suggestions which have been made here today will, of course, be examined very carefully indeed.
Perhaps at this point we might together see whether we can reach any common agreement about the factors which are affecting recruitment. The War Office have recently caused an extensive investigation to be carried out which covered a considerable number of persons in a variety of categories, in order to discover the reasons why men were unwilling to join the Regular Army. The examination of these results is still in progress, but I can give certain indications flowing from them. Out of 3,000 replies a few more than 1,000 have been
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examined and analyzed with unavoidable haste. So far as we have gone it seems clear that in the case of those who have already served, and of the young men between the ages of sixteen and eighteen, the main recorded deterrents to recruiting appear to have been two. On the one hand the many restrictions associated in people's minds with Army life, and on the other hand separation from families. One or other of those factors was mentioned by more than half of the pre-call-up youths, and by more than three-quarters of the soldiers who had already served. Other factors were mentioned, but I will not attempt to give them in any order because the returns are so incomplete. They are as follows: loss of personal freedom, interference with life career—a point which many noble Lords have stressed to-day and which in my innocence of the subject seemed to be the most fundamental of all—lack of privacy and home comforts. The investigation also suggests that the new pay terms are felt to be reasonable and are not a severe handicap in the recruiting campaign. I do not want to lay too much stress on that conclusion because the issue of pay is referred to by quite a number of youths, although by very few soldiers who have already served.
Let us just consider very briefly what is being clone—I will not say by the Government, but what is being done by the nation under the lead of the Government. I would like to say one or two words about four subjects: (1), the abolition of petty restrictions; (2), leave and overseas tour; (3), accommodation and married quarters; and (4), post-Service employment. Before coming to them in detail may I say just one general word in advance? I fully agree with everything that has been said here and elsewhere about the necessity of making conditions in the Service attractive, but it seems to me that running through the remarks to-day there was a note which I heartily echo and which represents the present mind of the Government. I have in mind the fact that the Army can never be made relatively attractive in terms of comfort when you compare it with civilian life. It is always bound to be a hard life, and I speak as one whose own constitution was unequal to the strain. It is a life subject to discipline, which may be found irksome. We are determined—and I know the House is heartily with us—that it shall not only be a

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full life, but it should appear to be a full life to the young man anxious to take responsibility, to exercise skill, to do a technical job and to develop his powers, whether they be physical, mental and, I do not apologize for saying, spiritual. The Government are determined that life in the Services shall in very truth be a full life for a man and a citizen. In saying that I am still looking, of course, at the matter from the point of view of attracting the individual who has his own career to embark upon and his own life to live. Of course, there is also the appeal to patriotism which can never be neglected.
May I suggest that perhaps it is going to be easier in the future than it has been in the past to make that appeal a convincing and universal appeal. What I have in mind—and I am not trying to strike any controversial note here—is that running throughout our whole political history, even before the rise of the great Party to which I belong, you find a clash between the militarists and the anti-militarists. Going back into the last century, you find it in the long and strenuous controversy between Palmerston and Gladstone. I take this illustration, because I feel that no noble Lord will consider that I am attempting to allocate praise or blame to existing political organizations. Wherever you look in the nineteenth or twentieth centuries you tend to find the conflict, but it does seem to me that, at the present time, that issue is dead. With regard to this matter we, in this country, can forget our own past and other people's pasts as well. I say that as one who is not, in any way, ashamed of his own past in this connexion. We can all concentrate on the fact that to-day the adequate defence of this country is recognized as essential not only to our own preservation but to the peace of the world.
Having said that, I will now touch briefly on a few aspects of the practical approach that is being made by the Government to the question of improving conditions of life in the Services. As the House is well aware, the C.I.G.S. has recently made public statements regarding the intentions of the War Office to make improvements in the conditions of life of the soldier. I was asked, in the most thoughtful speech delivered by Lord Moynihan, whether the statements by the C.I.G.S. had the authority of the Government. The answer is that they were not
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checked and weighed like a Ministerial statement, but, in principle, they not only have the approval of His Majesty's Government, but behind them is the enthusiasm of the Government. I hope that the noble Lord will regard that as a sufficient answer to his question. As your Lordships are aware, many petty restrictions are to be removed, and, where possible, unnecessary parades are to be eliminated. I am bound to say, in fairness to the other Services, who may, not unnaturally, wonder whether I am forgetting my duty to act as their spokesman also, that many of these changes have been effected already in the Royal Navy and in the Royal Air Force, and have been in existence in those Services for some time.
I will not detain your Lordships by going in detail into the questions of leave and overseas tours. This matter has been dealt with more than once in this House already. But I do want the House to believe that the Service Departments are fully conscious of the importance of regular leave and of keeping the length of overseas tours to a minimum. In the Royal Navy the tour is dependent upon the time a ship can spend abroad without refitting, which is normally about two and a half years. In the Army, it is planned that the overseas tour shall be from three to three and a half years, and the overseas tour of the Royal Air Force has already been reduced to two and a half years.
We come now to the question of married quarters. Lord Balfour of Inchrye and other noble Lords, including Viscount Bridgeman, have expressed curiosity as to what kind of priority was being given to these matters. They have asked whether the Service Departments get adequate priorities. I have been only a week at the War Office, but already I feel as though I had been there all my life, and I can assure your Lordships that we do not consider that we are getting adequate priorities. We shall continue to press for more and better priorities, certainly for as long as I am at the War Office and, I should think, for many years after I have ceased to darken its doors. Of course, we would like to see better priorities, but I would disabuse the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, of any anxiety which he may feel lest perhaps there has been some further cut by the Treasury of estimates

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already passed. As noble Lords are aware, original estimates are always pared down before they are finally co-ordinated. Apart from that, there has been no cut of the kind which the noble Lord seems to have in mind.
LORD CROFT: My Lords, may I interrupt to ask the noble Lord if he can give us any information as to what the view of the Government is with regard to the use of prefabricated houses at garrison centres? Is there any possibility of a quota of these buildings being allocated for this purpose?
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I understand that no prefabricated houses have been allotted for this purpose, and I am informed that we do not desire to make use of them. That, however, is a matter which we could, perhaps, go into in more detail on a later occasion. Now, I will just give the House one or two figures in this connexion. The Army already has some 13,600 married quarters for other ranks. Approval has been given for the provision of a further 1,000 married quarters and these are now in, course of construction. Abroad, although there is no real problem in occupied countries, the situation is inevitably difficult in other areas in which garrisons were not previously located permanently. Authority has however been given for communal camps in the Canal Zone in Egypt, while in Burma and Malaya the first quota of semi-permanent married quarters has been authorized to meet interim requirements. Noble Lords will be aware that the problem is particularly acute in the case of the Royal Navy, for whom provision of married quarters has recently been approved for the first time.
I wish now to add just a few words about post-Service employment, to which Tremendous importance—and quite rightly in my view—has been attached during the debate. It is primarily, of course, a matter for the Ministry of Labour, with whom the Service Departments are in close touch. In answer to the question raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, I would emphasize that the three Services are co-operating in their approach to the Ministry of Labour on this subject. For the Army, there are at present four Civil Resettlement Units. From the long term point of view, Resettlement Advice Centres are planned overseas and in the United Kingdom. I
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shall, I hope, not be running beyond the book when I say that we shall have to return to 1:his subject, in this House and elsewhere, many many times in the future before we have thoroughly threshed it out. Suggestions which have been made in this connexion to-day appear to me to have great cogency, at first sight at any rate. In this whole question of what we can ensure to a man who joins for what is called a long-service engagement, but what may, in tact be a very short-service engagement if you take into consideration his whole life, we must aim at finding some way of providing him with better training and a more secure future than has hitherto been possible. I speak in very general terms, but I am simply giving your Lordships my own reactions in coming to this question fairly fresh.
I will not—for, as I have said. I do not wish to detain the House—reply at great length regarding the actual recruiting staffs and premises. It is true that, during the war, a number of veterans were, at one time, employed, and it is true that hitherto it has been difficult to get hold of adequate and sufficiently attractive buildings. All that is now being Corrected. We are overhauling the recruiting staffs and we are doing everything we can to make sure that the premises offer much greater attractions than they have done hitherto. As regards the matter of recruiting marches, I gather that the noble Lord who is so extraordinarily well-informed on these matters is not, for once, on the target. I understand that the recruiting marches to which he refers are not recruiting marches in the ordinary sense. They are really intended to bring the Army, in an attractive way, permanently before the public mind. They are not intended to produce short-term results. But we do feel that, in the long run, nothing but good will come from, for example, the Army Mechanised Mobile Column.
The noble Viscount also asked what part the Central Office of Information is playing. I understand that an important part of the campaign has to devolve upon them. They arrange the commercial publicity on behalf of the Service Departments, and -the Director General of the Central Office of Information acts as Chairman of the Inter-Service Committee formed to co-ordinate publicity measures. The publicity campaign has been carefully

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planned and co-ordinated. It embraces all the usual media, including Press Conferences, Press visits, news stories, broadcasting, display advertising, posters, exhibitions, window displays, trailer films, news reel features and illustrated pamphlets—and yet, my Lords, I do not think that it has been a great success. Speaking as one who until a week ago was a stranger to these fields, I cannot honestly say that I had hitherto been made very recruiting-conscious by this well-intended publicity. And I do not know how many of your Lordships feel that they have been made very recruiting-conscious in the last few months. On the other hand I wonder how many of us, whether as Ministers or private citizens, can say with our hands oil our hearts that we have altogether pulled our weight and done as much as we should have liked to promote recruitment. Here and now I do want to emphasize on behalf of the Government how welcome will be any noble Lord, irrespective of Party, who throws himself into this recruiting campaign.
The Government on their side are fully aware of the seriousness of the recruiting position. We in this country are passing through a grim and rather disappointing phase of world history. The Government desire to make it plain—we think it is our duty to make it plain—that in spite of the sufferings which humanity has just undergone, in spite of all the constructive thinking for peace that the last twenty-five years have witnessed, in spite of the developments of science (including the atomic bomb, whether you count that as a good or a bad thing) no prospect can be seen of doing away with the Fighting Services. We are therefore determined to maintain them on a scale sufficient for the needs of national defence and in order to fulfil our commitments to the United Nations. We on these Benches—and I do not doubt that it is true of many other noble Lords—remain unrepentant in our passion for peace, and more determined than ever to strive ceaselessly for the outlawing of war, but we have no intention of allowing the course of events after the last war to repeat itself or the strength of our Armed Forces again to be whittled down to the point where we should be unable to defend ourselves or exert a proper measure of influence on the side of peace and justice in the world. No
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country has any reason to fear a strong Britain. Many countries have had cause to regret a weak Britain. If it has served no other purpose—and I believe that it has served many more purposes than one—this debate should have been immensely useful in helping to convince the House that the Government are solidly behind the Services; and in that I know that I carry all your Lordships with us.
5.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, certainly if this debate has served no other purpose—and I agree that it has served many—it has called forth a most frank and informative speech from the noble Lord opposite. I feel that that speech will make a very good starting point for attention to the improvements which I gathered from him are under consideration by His Majesty's Government. If the tone of that consideration follows the tone of the noble Lord's speech we on this side of the House have good reason to feel that a solution to the problem is in sight. In saying that, I do not want to suggest that the solution is quite in sight yet. We on these Benches are interested and glad to hear that a fresh scrutiny is being made. I will not attempt to draw the veil aside from that scrutiny, but I believe that it is on the highest level. We hope to hear how it is progressing, and that it will be possible for this House to be taken further into the confidence of the Government at the appropriate time.
It was interesting to hear that the analysis made by the War Office of the reasons why young men do not join the Army coincided so closely as it appeared to do with the views expressed from these Benches. I would make only one point on that, in reference to the restrictions. It may be in a vicious circle, or in a beneficial circle, but it is not always realized that restrictions are worse as soldiers, behaviour gets worse and become easier as the soldiers, behaviour improves. The peace-time quarters of the soldier will go a long way to solve this problem of petty crime. Reference has been made to 13,000 married quarters. I am not sure whether they are available for occupation; last time, I heard that the A.T.S. were occupying some of them. It is not at all clear to us on these Benches why prefabricated houses have been rejected. I should have thought that any

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house good enough for the civilian population was right for the Army. We shall have to revert to that shortly, because it seems that there is room to do something in that direction. I hope that the Service Departments will go on pressing for married quarters, and that they will get them. It is not sufficient to press; it is necessary that something should come of the pressure, and I hope that it will.
Now, we come to what I regard as an especially interesting point made by the noble Lord. It is that the time is past when there are two main political views about the necessity for the Army. Most sincerely, I hope that is right. I agree with the noble Lord that there is good reason to believe it, but the test of that view is Quite clearly the degree in which regular members of the Forces are absorbed into civil life after they have done their service. Until we see those elements, to which the noble Lord referred, welcomed back with open arms in civil life, I shall not believe that the community of thought behind the Front Bench is quite what we should like. When we see it I shall believe it.
I do not want to say much about recruiting marches, except that long-term plans may not be much good unless the short-term picture is all right. Circuses may be all right to attract young men, but, as some of your Lordships have tried to show, it is the more humdrum things, such as bread, which matter. I will not waste your time any more. We shall watch these points very closely. We shall be only too anxious to help the noble Lord opposite, whenever he feels that our help may be of use, but we shall continue to pay attention to these matters until the time comes when we see that: recruiting for the Services is going the way that it should, for the good of the foreign policy of His
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Majesty's Government. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

TRAINING OF EX-SERVICE MEN.
6.0 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, how many ex-Service men are now receiving instruction at training centres, and how many who have applied for such instruction have not yet been accommodated; what proportion of these applicants are above 30 years of age, and whether they can give any estimate of the length of time that they will have to wait before beginning their courses.]
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, 24,079 ex-Servicemen are now receiving instruction under the Government Vocational Training Scheme, and 29,190 have been accepted and are awaiting allocation to training. The information as to the number of the latter over thirty years of age is not readily available, but it is probably about one-third of the total. The length of time an applicant may have to wait for training depends on the trade he selects, and may vary from a few weeks in the case of some of the building trades, for which large numbers of men are required., to several months in the case of trades for which the numbers required at present are strictly limited.

CABLE AND WIRELESS BILL.
Amendment reported (according to Order).
House adjourned at five minutes past six o'clock.